# Scottish ref mark 2



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I see Sturgeon has said she will being to prepare legislation for a second Indy Ref.

Can't see this one failing if I'm honest, especially following todays result.

Do you think London can follow suit?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			At the risk of opening a can of worms, I see Sturgeon has said she will being to prepare legislation for a second Indy Ref.

Can't see this one failing if I'm honest, especially following todays result.

Do you think London can follow suit?
		
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Sturgeon won't call a referendum until she has 2-3yrs of significant YES margin.  I suppose if things go super smooth with UK/EU negotiations between now and formally leaving then that gap won't open.  Then again...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sturgeon won't call a referendum until she has 2-3yrs of significant YES margin.  I suppose if things go super smooth with UK/EU negotiations between now and formally leaving then that gap won't open.  Then again...
		
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It's a coming...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030


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## User62651 (Jun 24, 2016)

Might work as long as she has a guarantee Scotland can get into the EU alone (if the EU continues to function) otherwise little chance of a split, she has to get UK parliament ok first too but maybe England are now happy to whittle it down to just themselves and Wales. Don't think Scotland would meet the EU qualification criteria as is. Maybe she has to act quick to attract lots of the London bases finance centres up here as their new gateway point into the EU?

A great storm is brewing!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			It's a coming...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030

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Though actually I don't think she can call one in any case.

Interesting ploy might be for the Tories to call a snap General Election and hope to see the SNP getting gubbed.  Though that of course wouldn't change the Holyrood situation.


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## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting ploy might be for the Tories to call a snap General Election and hope to see the SNP getting gubbed.  Though that of course wouldn't change the Holyrood situation.
		
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And would change nothing in Scotland.  SNP would clean up.  Again.


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though actually I don't think she can call one in any case.

Interesting ploy might be for the Tories to call a snap General Election and hope to see the SNP getting gubbed.  Though that of course wouldn't change the Holyrood situation.
		
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why on earth would that cause the tories to call a snap GE lol yep lets go to the polls despite not knowing who our leader is, 4 years before we have to, to stop something happening that technically cant happen anyway


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Clever move,
Keeps the Indy ball rolling whilst attracting English/Welsh businesses and families to re-locate


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## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

They should not have another one. It's like they'll keep having them until they the result they want. 

Scotland have had their referendum. Live with it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

fundy said:



			why on earth would that cause the tories to call a snap GE lol yep lets go to the polls despite not knowing who our leader is, 4 years before we have to, to stop something happening that technically cant happen anyway
		
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I was half jesting suggesting that a Tory tactic to undermine the SNP and a 2nd IndyRef would be to call a snap GE - of course one might be deemed necessary in any case to give a new Tory PM a mandate.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2016)

I can't see Indy Ref 2 happening within the next couple of years at least as I don't think it is in Scottish interests to do so. Would Scottish voters vote for an independent Scotland with oil prices at $50 per barrel when all of the previous financial models were based on oil at over $100 per barrel. It would seem sensible for the SNP to wait and see what happens both with UK negotiations on the exit and also what effect the exit has on the EU as a whole, for example do other countries also look to leave. It also seems almost certain that to get EU membership Scotland would have to accept the Euro as their currency and I'm not sure that would be a wise decision.

Have also seen that it is possible that Spain and possibly Belgium would look to veto Scottish membership of the EU. Spain would not want to set a precedent especially with Catalonia looking for it's own independence and Belgium has similar worries over Flanders.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



*They should not have another one.* It's like they'll keep having them until they the result they want. 

Scotland have had their referendum. Live with it!
		
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And the SNP and other supporters of independence will ask 'who are you to take such a view and tell us whether we should have another IndyRef or not?'  You do realise that by you taking your view a few more will be added to the YES camp?


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## DCB (Jun 24, 2016)

Well whatever happens, it has to be decisive this time around. We've still not recovered from the fallout from the last one, this will only pick at the scab


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the SNP and other supporters of independence will ask 'who are you to take such a view and tell us whether we should have another IndyRef or not?'  You do realise that by you taking your view a few more will be added to the YES camp?
		
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And why should they have another referendum? 

Less than two years ago Scotland was given the choice to become independent or remain as part of the UK. They chose to remain in the UK. Yesterday's vote was not about what Scotland wanted, it was about what the UK wanted. It might not be the result that I would have chosen but we live in a democracy and a majority of the UK has decided they want to leave the EU. Scotland chose to stay in the UK and therefore should abide by that decision. Or is Scotland going to have a Ronaldo style hissy fit and throw their toys out of the pram every time a decision is made in the UK that they don't agree with?


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## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or is Scotland going to have a Ronaldo style hissy fit and throw their toys out of the pram every time a decision is made in the UK that they don't agree with?
		
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This already happens all the time and is tiresome already.

Which is why, much as I don't want Scotland to be Independent, part of me just thinks "sod it", let them vote Yes so we can all get on with things without the #indyref2 BS being pulled out every time the toys come out of the pram.

What a sad state of affairs 

Edit, per DCB's post it is actually the SNP that squeal like a pig when they don't get their own rather than "Scotland".  I'm tired of it and don't live there anymore!!


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## daverollo (Jun 24, 2016)

What any 'remain' camp should be focusing on in Indy Ref 2 is to really question the SNP how they are going to bridge the gap between what they spend and what they receive: (from GERS report)

_Net Fiscal Balance 2014-15

This is the difference between current revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:

Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of Â£16.7 billion (11.9 per cent of GDP).

Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of Â£14.9 billion (9.7 per cent of GDP).

For the UK, was a deficit of Â£89.1 billion (4.9 per cent of GDP)._

Who will bank roll the overdraft for them and at what cost and how long before they intend to balance the books?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And why should they have another referendum? 

Less than two years ago Scotland was given the choice to become independent or remain as part of the UK. They chose to remain in the UK. Yesterday's vote was not about what Scotland wanted, it was about what the UK wanted. It might not be the result that I would have chosen but we live in a democracy and a majority of the UK has decided they want to leave the EU. Scotland chose to stay in the UK and therefore should abide by that decision. Or is Scotland going to have a Ronaldo style hissy fit and throw their toys out of the pram every time a decision is made in the UK that they don't agree with?
		
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Can you not see how this changes things though? If a full country votes one way (on a massive issue) but is forced to accept the opposite result, can you not even slightly see why they would then want to redo a vote they held, especially when the previous vote kept saying "if you want to be in the EU, vote NO).

Whilst not a supporter of scottish independence previously, this seems pretty clear cut now that they deserve a chance to do what they desire.

And the Independent City of London can follow....


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## DCB (Jun 24, 2016)

Please don't refer to Scotland as a whole like that. It's the SNP, who currently have a strong following due to the independence scenario, who want to push for independence. There are lots of us who really would be happy to stay within the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



*I can't see Indy Ref 2 happening within the next couple* of years at least as I don't think it is in Scottish interests to do so. Would Scottish voters vote for an independent Scotland with oil prices at $50 per barrel when all of the previous financial models were based on oil at over $100 per barrel. It would seem sensible for the SNP to wait and see what happens both with UK negotiations on the exit and also what effect the exit has on the EU as a whole, for example do other countries also look to leave. It also seems almost certain that to get EU membership Scotland would have to accept the Euro as their currency and I'm not sure that would be a wise decision.

Have also seen that it is possible that Spain and possibly Belgium would look to veto Scottish membership of the EU. Spain would not want to set a precedent especially with Catalonia looking for it's own independence and Belgium has similar worries over Flanders.
		
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I agree - she will look for at least 2-3 yrs of a big YES gap over NO.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

DCB said:



			Please don't refer to Scotland as a whole like that. It's the SNP, who currently have a strong following due to the independence scenario, who want to push for independence. There are lots of us who really would be happy to stay within the UK.
		
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Exactly. No surprise sturgeon jumped in with both feet today but it's pure political opportunism and only fanning the flames of a bad situation this morning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly. No surprise sturgeon jumped in with both feet today but it's pure political opportunism and only fanning the flames of a bad situation this morning.
		
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My wife (absolutely 100% English - but not so proud of it this morning) thought that Sturgeon spoke well.


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## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife (absolutely 100% English - but not so proud of it this morning) thought that Sturgeon spoke well.
		
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The SNP seem to have very good politicians (not a compliment really) so no surprise they can "speak well".

It's substance they have a problem with.

In interest of balance that could be true of the majority of politicians, the SNP are better than most at playing the game though


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Can you not see how this changes things though? If a full country votes one way (on a massive issue) but is forced to accept the opposite result, can you not even slightly see why they would then want to redo a vote they held, especially when the previous vote kept saying "if you want to be in the EU, vote NO).
		
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So if the result had been reversed and Scottish and Irish votes had led to a Remain vote would you have been supporting an English independence referendum?

And apologies DCB, it should of course have been SNP rather than Scotland in my previous post.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife (absolutely 100% English - but not so proud of it this morning) thought that Sturgeon spoke well.
		
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She probably did, she's an excellent politician.

That's not a complement, though, she's a shameless opportunist who will do anything to further her twisted ideology.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			She probably did, she's an excellent politician.

That's not a complement, though, she's a shameless opportunist who will do anything to further her twisted ideology.
		
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I think that Sturgeon may be setting out an SNP position with the EU.  There is a possibility, no more than that, that at the point of UK secession from the EU, Indyref2 may have happened and Scotland may have voted YES.  At the point a Scottish government could claim that they were an independent Scotland in the EU and so would not have to join the EU.

Just a thought.  Lots if maybes I know.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So if the result had been reversed and Scottish and Irish votes had led to a Remain vote would you have been supporting an English independence referendum?

And apologies DCB, it should of course have been SNP rather than Scotland in my previous post.
		
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Yes I would have. This is one of the biggest issues in recent history for the UK, countries deserve a bit of a say.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that Sturgeon may be setting out an SNP position with the EU.  There is a possibility, no more than that, that at the point of UK secession from the EU, Indyref2 may have happened and Scotland may have voted YES.  At the point a Scottish government could claim that they were an independent Scotland in the EU and so would not have to join the EU.

Just a thought.  Lots if maybes I know.
		
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It would be just wrong to hold indyref2 until the outcome of brexit was known. We simply wouldn't know either what we were voting to join, or to leave.

I doubt such a principled approach will even cross her mind.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 24, 2016)

I believe the principle of the matter is that 2 years ago, Scottish voters were told that the only way to guarantee continued EU membership was to vote No.


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## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			I believe the principle of the matter is that 2 years ago, Scottish voters were told that the only way to guarantee continued EU membership was to vote No.
		
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At the point of the referendum that was correct though, yes?

Scotland were not guaranteed to be part of the EU if they voted for independence.

Unless you wanted the result of this referendum to be rigged, all the Scottish voters knew it was coming


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			I believe the principle of the matter is that 2 years ago, Scottish voters were told that the only way to guarantee continued EU membership was to vote No.
		
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And in the context of that vote, it was. It's all gone a bit pear shaped since then....

Complete failure of leadership by the pm.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh, and it isn't opportunism to honour a manifesto pledge.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Oh, and it isn't opportunism to honour a manifesto pledge.
		
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Lol! you sound just like her.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 24, 2016)

Good, aint I?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Good, aint I? 

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:cheers:


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## DCB (Jun 24, 2016)

One of the first things the Scottish Government will have to tell us is the official position of the EU and Scotland as either a continuing member when the RUK resigns or as a new country that will need to go through the normal entry requirements. That information is going to be crucial and can't be fudged this time.


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## Val (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland to remain in the EU without indyref2

Easy fix


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## chippa1909 (Jun 24, 2016)

Val said:



			Scotland to remain in the EU without indyref2

Easy fix
		
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So how does that work then?


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## Val (Jun 24, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			So how does that work then?
		
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Don't know, ask Greenland and Denmark as they done it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2016)

So if the SNP get their way and get a second independence referendum and the vote goes their way I assume they will then be looking to join the EU as that is what all the fuss is about. Assuming that Spain and Belgium don't veto their plans and they sort out switching to join the Euro, which all new member states must commit to. Scotland are currently in a union with 3 other countries, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and when a democratically reached decision goes against them they throw their toys out of the pram and demand a referendum. What happens when they join a union with 27 other countries? Decisions taken by a majority are far more likely to go against them then. Do they have a tantrum every time and try to demand a referendum?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It would be just wrong to hold indyref2 until the outcome of brexit was known. We simply wouldn't know either what we were voting to join, or to leave.

I doubt such a principled approach will even cross her mind.
		
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Agree with you on your first line.

The Independence supporters [of all Scottish political parties] need at least two years of support or a Westminster/EU meltdown to reach a point where an Indyref2 would be viable.
Nicola just keeps fanning the embers until the right time comes along.....working a good act with Salmond

Cameron was a liability in Scottish matters, zilch credibility.
Perhaps a new PM will open up a friendlier dialogue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Val said:



			Scotland to remain in the EU without indyref2

Easy fix
		
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I hear that is already being kicked around in Brussels.


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## chico (Jun 24, 2016)

If the EU could give the UK a bloody nose by engineering a way to guarantee Scotland membership I think they would jump at it. Don't rule anything out in this brave(stupid) New world.


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## scottbrown (Jun 24, 2016)

What makes The SNP think they would be welcomed into the EU? Surely the EU isn't going to want another Greece on its books that Germany has to bank roll?!?!? 

And would Scotland accept the Euro? EU rules states new member states must also join the currency union......

Interesting questions, and ones that make me think Sturgeon is all hot air!


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## chippa1909 (Jun 24, 2016)

Didn't think I'd see this, but seemingly Herald to lend support soon too.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Scotland has no constitutional right to call another independence referendum.


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## User20205 (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland has no constitutional right to call another independence referendum.
		
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You are correct, but is there a moral right?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

therod said:



			You are correct, but is there a moral right?
		
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The last referendum made it clear it was a once in a generation decision, it was not conditional on EU membership so IMO there is no moral right.


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## USER1999 (Jun 25, 2016)

therod said:



			You are correct, but is there a moral right?
		
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No.

Right now,  it's not a good idea. Economically, an indy Scotland is not a viable option. Their last referendum was based on oil prices supporting the economy.  That's now gone. Any vote for independence now is a knee jerk emotional response, akin to spitting the dummy, when you don't get what you wanted. 

It would be a stupid response to brexit, especially as the ship they are jumping from may not sink.


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## User20205 (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The last referendum made it clear it was a once in a generation decision, it was not conditional on EU membership so IMO there is no moral right.
		
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murphthemog said:



			No.

Right now,  it's not a good idea. Economically, an indy Scotland is not a viable option. Their last referendum was based on oil prices supporting the economy.  That's now gone. Any vote for independence now is a knee jerk emotional response, akin to spitting the dummy, when you don't get what you wanted. 

It would be a stupid response to brexit, especially as the ship they are jumping from may not sink.
		
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If I was Scottish I would feel aggrieved that the Britain I voted to stay part of has fundamentally changed. 

In the recent spirit of self determination, and the desire to be governed by those who you've actually voted for, it seems like the moral justification would be there.


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## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I hear that is already being kicked around in Brussels.
		
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Great, you can go but it should be warts an all, no sterling, you can have the Euro, no cherry picking, you can adhere to all the Brussels laws they inflict on you, but this time you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves. 

see ya, and good luck &#128077;


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland has no constitutional right to call another independence referendum.
		
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Yes it does, it can ask for one whenever it likes. That doesn't mean it will happen though.


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			Great, you can go but it should be warts an all, no sterling, you can have the Euro, no cherry picking, you can adhere to all the Brussels laws they inflict on you, but this time you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves. 

see ya, and good luck &#128077;
		
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Go where? You are quoting a post that suggests Scotland are going no where.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

therod said:



			You are correct, but is there a moral right?
		
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Or a moral right for London to demand that it Remains in the EU?  It was a UK vote.

Would it be wise for the EU to negotiate directly with Scotland before Article 50 is invoked? And even then would it be wise before Independence has been achieved?

Its posturing, positioning and noise by the SNP. Fair play to them, they are playing a fantastic game.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Val said:



			Yes it does, it can ask for one whenever it likes. That doesn't mean it will happen though.
		
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Yes Val, they can ask but only the Westminster Parliament can allow it to happen.   Sturgeon is using opportunism at a very bad time that does nothing but create unrest which is not good for the people.


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## User20205 (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			Great, you can go but it should be warts an all, no sterling, you can have the Euro, no cherry picking, you can adhere to all the Brussels laws they inflict on you, but this time you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves. 

see ya, and good luck &#128077;
		
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What about your keeping Britain 'great'?


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## User20205 (Jun 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or a moral right for London to demand that it Remains in the EU?  It was a UK vote.

Would it be wise for the EU to negotiate directly with Scotland before Article 50 is invoked? And even then would it be wise before Independence has been achieved?

Its posturing, positioning and noise by the SNP. Fair play to them, they are playing a fantastic game.
		
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I'm not Scottish. I'm pleased they voted to stay last year. I think we are stronger together, but I thought that about Europe also. It seems we have entered a new age of insular, isolationist, nationalist politics. If we want freedom from Brussels, why shouldn't they have freedom from Westminster. It's not a government they've elected.


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or a moral right for London to demand that it Remains in the EU?  It was a UK vote.

Would it be wise for the EU to negotiate directly with Scotland before Article 50 is invoked? And even then would it be wise before Independence has been achieved?

Its posturing, positioning and noise by the SNP. Fair play to them, they are playing a fantastic game.
		
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100% spot on


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

therod said:



			I'm not Scottish. I'm pleased they voted to stay last year. I think we are stronger together, but I thought that about Europe also. It seems we have entered a new age of insular, isolationist, nationalist politics. If we want freedom from Brussels, why shouldn't they have freedom from Westminster. It's not a government they've elected.
		
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Didn't say you were. Neither am I. My point is its a UK vote. Just as it is in a General Election. There's plenty of areas/regions in the UK that don't want Tory rule, e.g. the northeast. Should they have independence?


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## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

therod said:



			What about your keeping Britain 'great'?
		
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Like in anything, if someone wants out or wants to leave, let them go, grass greener and all that, let them out to play in the big bad world on their own and see how they fare!  I'm English first not British and certainly not European, if they think they'll be better off as without us as all they do is whinge about Westminster,, then good riddance,  but don't let them come crawling back.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 25, 2016)

Well I'm Scottish and European. So I certainly won't miss idiots like you.


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## User62651 (Jun 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or a moral right for London to demand that it Remains in the EU?  It was a UK vote.

Would it be wise for the EU to negotiate directly with Scotland before Article 50 is invoked? And even then would it be wise before Independence has been achieved?

Its posturing, positioning and noise by the SNP. Fair play to them, they are playing a fantastic game.
		
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Its no game, way I see it Scotland probably needs to be in the EU rather than isolated with England, that is more critical for us, if not for England. Sturgeon knows she has to act damn quick to show EU leaders what we as a country want. My feeling is we are a separate country in 2 unions, if it is time to leave one union to stay with another we can vote as many times as we like, SNP with help can get a majority to vote in another referendum through Holyrood if they want to try and if Holyrood votes yes and Westmister says no where does that leave this so called union, there is no real union now other than in name. If other parties at Holyrood had more MSPs then they can shoot it down, but they dont at present. UK government does not represent Scotland, 1 Tory MP is it and we are getting dragged out, it seems clear most English Brexiters would be happy with Scotland leaving so they can be entirely on their own in 'glorious' England so what's the problem? You dont hear older uneducated masses of Brexiters say 'we've got our UK back', or 'we've got our England and Wales back' all you hear is 'we've got our England back', too one sided. Go Nicola.
For those claimimng the Indyref was once in a generation, Better Together promised the only way to stay in the EU was to vote NO, so they neutralise eachother.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hopefully only under 18 year old with a minimum of 7 A levels will be allowed to vote.

A 2/3rds majority will also be required


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## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Well I'm Scottish and European. So I certainly won't miss idiots like you.
		
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Easy voting decision for you then, see ya....&#128540;


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Its no game, way I see it Scotland probably needs to be in the EU rather than isolated with England, that is more critical for us, if not for England. Sturgeon knows she has to act damn quick to show EU leaders what we as a country want. My feeling is we are a separate country in 2 unions, if it is time to leave one union to stay with another we can vote as many times as we like, SNP with help can get a majority to vote in another referendum through Holyrood if they want to try and if Holyrood votes yes and Westmister says no where does that leave this so called union, there is no real union now other than in name. If other parties at Holyrood had more MSPs then they can shoot it down, but they dont at present. UK government does not represent Scotland, 1 Tory MP is it and we are getting dragged out, it seems clear most English Brexiters would be happy with Scotland leaving so they can be entirely on their own in 'glorious' England so what's the problem? You dont hear older uneducated masses of Brexiters say 'we've got our UK back', or 'we've got our England and Wales back' all you hear is 'we've got our England back', too one sided. Go Nicola.
For those claimimng the Indyref was once in a generation, *Better Together promised the only way to stay in the EU was to vote NO, so they neutralise eachother*.

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Can you show where this was promised?


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## KenL (Jun 25, 2016)

I am British and brought up in Scotland.  I was really disappointed by the EU vote but it was a UK vote and absolutely nothing to do with Scottish independence.

I am disgusted by Sturgeon and her insistence that Scotland should now automatically be given another stab at independence.  Scotland is not some prosperous, idyllic country - too many lazy indigenous people happy to live off hand outs and not work for the common good.

Scotland will really struggle if independent whether or not part of the EU, especially if the EU is weakened by the rest of the UK leaving.


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			Like in anything, if someone wants out or wants to leave, let them go, grass greener and all that, let them out to play in the big bad world on their own and see how they fare!  I'm English first not British and certainly not European, if they think they'll be better off as without us as all they do is whinge about Westminster,, then good riddance,  but don't let them come crawling back.
		
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Do you really have to generalise about the
Scottish? I'll remind you that the majority of Scots voted to stay within the UK, something you could do with remembering before spouting nonsense like this.


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you show where this was promised?
		
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Nothing was promised but it was referred to continually that the only way to remain in the EU was vote NO


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Val said:



			Nothing was promised but it was referred to continually that the only way to remain in the EU was vote NO
		
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That's because Spain then and continues to say that they would veto any move for Scotland to join the EU. What do those supporting the SNP not understand about that statement.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			That's because Spain then and continues to say that they would veto any move for Scotland to join the EU. What do those supporting the SNP not understand about that statement.
		
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And don't forget Belgium also making noises about vetoing Scotland joining. They have Flanders which is keen on independence and they don't want a precedent to be set that might trigger them to declare independence from Belgium.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 19863


Didn't think I'd see this, but seemingly Herald to lend support soon too. 

Click to expand...

David Torrance - a political columnist of The Herald and a NO last time round - certainly seemed to accept that Indyref2 will happen and also seemed to be leaning towards a YES - both overall and himself.  Though as he'd been up for three days I may have got him wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The last referendum made it clear it was a once in a generation decision, it was not conditional on EU membership so IMO there is no moral right.
		
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No it didn't - Salmond was urging folks to vote YES using that idea as a tactic - just as BT used a NO as the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU as a tactic.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No it didn't - Salmond was urging folks to vote YES using that idea as a tactic - just as BT used a NO as the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU as a tactic.
		
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Yes it did, or are you going to insist that a Google of the Salmond statement be found just to prove your wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-a-generation-opportunity-for-Scotland.html


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## User62651 (Jun 25, 2016)

Interesting that Henry McLeish, former Labour first Minister of Scotland has said today Scotland should go EU over UK as best for the country now given Thursdays events. If a former Labour top guy is saying that this move has already got legs imo.
There is a good bit of wait and see here but I think they (Scot Govt) have to be proactive and get in fast to float and explore all eventualities considering the huge unknowns going forward, only right. Wouldn't be doing their job if not. Is opportunistic by SNP yes but what an opportunity, my gut feeling is they would at present get the required 50%+ but if they hold another referendum in 2 years and everything has settled down better than expected maybe not, there would be a proportion of more young people who are yes and less old who are no so could work for independence. In 2014 there was also a lot of fear but with this Brexit thing scaring everyone fear of further change won't be as big an issue imo.
Meantime I hope the Tories have the sense to not appoint Boris as PM. There are better candidates.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And don't forget Belgium also making noises about vetoing Scotland joining. They have Flanders which is keen on independence and they don't want a precedent to be set that might trigger them to declare independence from Belgium.
		
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Which is why the SNP are stating loud, clear and without hesitation that the Scottish government wants Scotland to be in the EU - and might even be independent and wishing to remain in the EU at the point the UK leaves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Yes it did, or are you going to insist that a Google of the Salmond statement be found just to prove your wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-a-generation-opportunity-for-Scotland.html

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Salmond also said that it was his opinion - and whilst he may obviously be seen to represent the SNP, he did not represent others supporting independence.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why the SNP are stating loud, clear and without hesitation that the Scottish government wants Scotland to be in the EU - and might even be independent and wishing to remain in the EU at the point the UK leaves.
		
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They can state as loud as they like but IMHO I cannot see Spain giving way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They can state as loud as they like but IMHO I cannot see Spain giving way.
		
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Which is why Scotland not actually having to join might appear attractive to some.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Salmond also said that it was his opinion - and whilst he may obviously be seen to represent the SNP, he did not represent others supporting independence.
		
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Yep sounds about write, SNP have no respect of the democratic process nor do they keep their word. He was at the time leader of the SNP. Are you saying that SNP leaders speak with forked tongue.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why Scotland not actually having to join might appear attractive to some.
		
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You've lost me, do they think they can join or they don't want to join, or just say they want to join knowing that they can't join.

This is getting very confusing. Will you be living in Scotland so that you cannot receive the benefits of not being in the EU?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You've lost me, do they think they can join or they don't want to join, or just say they want to join knowing that they can't join.

This is getting very confusing. Will you be living in Scotland so that you cannot receive the benefits of not being in the EU?
		
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Quite possibly

If Scotland is independent at the point the UK secedes - could it be engineered that it would in fact be rUK that secedes and Scotland does not - so Scotland does not actually have to join as it never left?


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## User62651 (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why the SNP are stating loud, clear and without hesitation that the Scottish government wants Scotland to be in the EU - and might even be independent and wishing to remain in the EU at the point the UK leaves.
		
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There is a loose precedent of sorts with Denmark/Faroes/Greenland with Denmark in EU and 2 of its dependencies/territories (or something akin to that) in Faeroes/Greenland not being in EU so there is some room for manouvre, could be possible UK stays together in some changed form yet component parts of UK can be in EU, would be complicated of course but that's often the case. Really cant see Scotland accepting Brexit without a major fight, really can't, 62% in over all geographic areas is too strong a position imo despite this being a UK vote, such a clear divide.

Do you think Lizzie will get involved with this? - massive turmoil all over UK on this one, UK Govt and opposition is shambolic currently and she's keeping schtumm (sp.). As head of state should she not speak up and re-assure the UK, be people monarchist or not?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			There is a loose precedent of sorts with Denmark/Faroes/Greenland with Denmark in EU and 2 of its dependencies/territories (or something akin to that) in Faeroes/Greenland not being in EU so there is some room for manouvre, could be possible UK stays together in some changed form yet component parts of UK can be in EU, would be complicated of course but that's often the case. Really cant see Scotland accepting Brexit without a major fight, really can't, 62% in over all geographic areas is too strong a position imo despite this being a UK vote, such a clear divide.

Do you think Lizzie will get involved with this? - massive turmoil all over UK on this one, UK Govt and opposition is shambolic currently and she's keeping schtumm (sp.). As head of state should she not speak up and re-assure the UK, be people monarchist or not?
		
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And what say will the SNP have when all the myriad of new trade, security etc agreements are being discussed and agreed - and what role in the redrafting of all laws and regulations not devolved to Holyrood and retained matters?


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## User62651 (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what say will the SNP have when all the myriad of new trade, security etc agreements are being discussed and agreed - and what role in the redrafting of all laws and regulations not devolved to Holyrood and retained matters?
		
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Absolutely no idea, have you?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 25, 2016)

Scotland are not members of the EU so they are unable to remain in the EU. The UK is a member of the EU and has voted to leave. If Scotland votes for independence before the UK leaves the EU then they will not be a member of the EU at the point they leave the UK. If they are still part of the UK when they leave the EU then Scotland will have withdrawn from the EU as part of the UK. They will in some form need to apply to join the EU and the facts are that Spain and Belgium might veto their application. Sturgeon and the SNP can spout as much garbage as they like but the simple fact is that they are not a member of the EU so cannot possibly remain a member when the UK leaves.

I do however look forward to an independent Scotland joining the EU as it will be fun to watch the SNP spit out their dummy and have a hissy fit every time a decision goes against them which I'm sure will be more often in a union with 27 other countries than in a union with 3 other countries.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite possibly

If Scotland is independent at the point the UK secedes - could it be engineered that it would in fact be rUK that secedes and Scotland does not - so Scotland does not actually have to join as it never left?
		
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Good point. Looking at Article 218, the only thing that Scotland needs to satisfy is the financial criteria. They already have the laws and regs in place. And if the EU took Bulgaria and Rumania in, it would just be a nod and you're in.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what say will the SNP have when all the myriad of new trade, security etc agreements are being discussed and agreed - and what role in the redrafting of all laws and regulations not devolved to Holyrood and retained matters?
		
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It works something like this:  The UK will be negotiating the new trade arrangements, security etc and as Scotland is part of the UK just like England, Wales and NI, they will be represented in Parliament where they have a proportional number of MP's .


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite possibly

If Scotland is independent at the point the UK secedes - could it be engineered that it would in fact be rUK that secedes and Scotland does not - so Scotland does not actually have to join as it never left?
		
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But Scotland was never in, it was The UK that was in and it was The UK that departed.

Did you actually read the ballot paper? Did you actually vote?


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## chippa1909 (Jun 25, 2016)

Ooo.


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## Val (Jun 25, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Ooo. 
View attachment 19871

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The same polls that called a Yes vote and a remain before both referendums


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## chippa1909 (Jun 25, 2016)

Val said:



			The same polls that called a Yes vote and a remain before both referendums
		
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Yeah, but the 32% No is where Yes started from the last time. So I guess you've some work to do.

And remember this is the Sunday Post, home of the ancient Unionist.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes Val, they can ask but only the Westminster Parliament can allow it to happen.   Sturgeon is using opportunism at a very bad time that does nothing but create unrest which is not good for the people.
		
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You do realise that the consent of the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales & NI, is required for the UK to leave the EU?


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			You do realise that the consent of the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales & NI, is required for the UK to leave the EU?
		
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You do realise that in a fully democratic process the people of the U.K. voted to leave the EU and it is for the politicians whatever their preference to carry out those wishes.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why the SNP are stating loud, clear and without hesitation that the Scottish government wants Scotland to be in the EU - and might even be independent and wishing to remain in the EU at the point the UK leaves.
		
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Well that plan lasted all of two days. The European Commission has already ruled that there is no option but for the whole of the UK to exit the EU following the leave vote. 

"The official ruling confirmed that 'part' of a member state 'cannot remain in the EU if the member state itself withdraws'."
'Also discussed is the question of whether a "partial withdrawal" could refer to part of the territory of a member state, and therefore the member state "as a whole" does not withdraw but part of it "remains" in the EU.
'It should be noted, however, that the "part of the member state" in question would not itself be a sovereign state, and that it would never have been a formal member of the EU as a sovereign state

So Scotland would have to leave with the rest of the UK and then reapply for membership which could take years and then they could have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK as well as joining the Euro. Interesting times ahead. Your move Nicola!


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You do realise that in a fully democratic process the people of the U.K. voted to leave the EU and it is for the politicians whatever their preference to carry out those wishes.
		
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You do realise that my post was in response to Socketrocket's about Westminster blocking indyref2?


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well that plan lasted all of two days. The European Commission has already ruled that there is no option but for the whole of the UK to exit the EU following the leave vote. 

"The official ruling confirmed that 'part' of a member state 'cannot remain in the EU if the member state itself withdraws'."
'Also discussed is the question of whether a "partial withdrawal" could refer to part of the territory of a member state, and therefore the member state "as a whole" does not withdraw but part of it "remains" in the EU.
'It should be noted, however, that the "part of the member state" in question would not itself be a sovereign state, and that it would never have been a formal member of the EU as a sovereign state

So Scotland would have to leave with the rest of the UK and then reapply for membership which could take years and then they could have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK as well as joining the Euro. Interesting times ahead. Your move Nicola!



Click to expand...

Where did this information come from?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2016)

It's been on several newspaper websites. This link is from the Metro......

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/scotl...-able-to-stay-in-the-eu-after-brexit-5967168/

Also interesting that Nicola Sturgeon is talking about Holyrood "refusing to give legislative consent" for the UK to leave the EU and in effect blocking the UK from leaving. I wonder how keen she would have been on Westminster doing the same if the result of the Scottish referendum had been for Scotland to become independent?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ah. You read it in the paper.


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## sawtooth (Jun 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's been on several newspaper websites. This link is from the Metro......

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/scotl...-able-to-stay-in-the-eu-after-brexit-5967168/

Also interesting that *Nicola Sturgeon *is talking about Holyrood "refusing to give legislative consent" for the UK to leave the EU and in effect blocking the UK from leaving. I wonder how keen she would have been on Westminster doing the same if the result of the Scottish referendum had been for Scotland to become independent?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

Click to expand...

She is poison.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			She is poison.
		
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She's just a normal politician - only in it for herself.

3 weeks ago she stated that the result of the referendum would not be enough to call for Indy 2.

Friday she insisted that she should be part of the exit negotiations.

Yesterday it was "We are talking to EU ministers" .

Today she (although countries have already said they would veto it) insists that Scotland will join the EU. How can she negotiate to exit when she's insitant that she,s in.

Admitted that there have been NO talks with EU ministers.

Just a normal everyday self indulgent political opportunitist.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			She is poison.
		
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Only poison is from south of the border sunshine. A poisonous campaign followed by a poisonous aftermath.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Only poison is from south of the border sunshine. A poisonous campaign followed by a poisonous aftermath.
		
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Let's not start to be generic towards people both sides of the border - there are a lot of people on the forum on both sides who respect each other - last thing we need is a build up of "anti Scottish or anti English"


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Ah. You read it in the paper.
		
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Nope, I read it on several newspaper websites. I'm assuming that they haven't all made up the story and the quotes. Or would you prefer if I wait until it's on Wings over Scotland as that seems to be your bible up there?


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, I read it on several newspaper websites. I'm assuming that they haven't all made up the story and the quotes. Or would you prefer if I wait until it's on Wings over Scotland as that seems to be your bible up there?
		
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Well Wings does an excellent job of pointing out the BS that newspapers sometimes  publish...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			You do realise that the consent of the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales & NI, is required for the UK to leave the EU?
		
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Please show how they have that constitutional right?    I think you probably made that up as it suits your own agenda.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			You do realise that the consent of the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales & NI, is required for the UK to leave the EU?
		
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/nicola-sturgeon-new-scottish-referendum-brexit


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/nicola-sturgeon-new-scottish-referendum-brexit

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Intersting difference between consent and the right to veto. And I don't think a poll of 650 and 1600 is truly representative.

That aside, and purely from a democratic perspective, I'd be uncomfortable with having a leader that chooses not to recognise the validity of a referendum. What happens in Scotland if she doesn't agree with a vote there? 

Oops, she's done that for the last two years.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2016)

Can you imagine the quite justified outrage from the SNP if Westminster used the same rules to block Scottish independence. I can't believe that the SNP would be so stupid as to block leave from happening as it would pretty much torpedo their chacnes of ever having an independent Scotland and would make their whole purpose for existing irrelevant.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you imagine the quite justified outrage from the SNP if Westminster used the same rules to block Scottish independence. I can't believe that the SNP would be so stupid as to block leave from happening as it would pretty much torpedo their chacnes of ever having an independent Scotland and would make their whole purpose for existing irrelevant.
		
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The last Scottish Indi Referendum was explained as a once in a generation decision and the EU referendum was already going to happen with no link to it being related to the Scottish position.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

And with that, I'm out.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 19876


And with that, I'm out.
		
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And


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## KenL (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Only poison is from south of the border sunshine. A poisonous campaign followed by a poisonous aftermath.
		
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Nope.  I am from north of the "border".  I cannot stand Sturgeon, Salmond or the SNP.

Don't speak for me or the majority of "us", thank you.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Only poison is from south of the border sunshine. A poisonous campaign followed by a poisonous aftermath.
		
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Remind me of how it kicked off after the last failed Scottish referendum vote...


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## DCB (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Only poison is from south of the border sunshine. A poisonous campaign followed by a poisonous aftermath.
		
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We had and still do have enough poison, venom, bile, call it what you want, swilling about up here as an aftermath of 2014. Here's hoping the next process is played out in a far more honourable manner.

I have my doubts though.


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## Val (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Well Wings does an excellent job of pointing out the BS that newspapers sometimes  publish...
		
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In a non biased way off course


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2016)

We also need a new shadow Scottish Secretary as Ian Young has resigned.
For those not in the know Ian is Scotland's last Labour MP so no doubt we shall get an English or Welsh shadow secretary...super.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2016)

Val said:



			In a non biased way off course 

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Of course, but no different to all the other Scottish newspapers.

Wings can be very funny at times, especially the Rev's latest offing.
Daren't put it up as I shall get those nasty rude boys calling me names again.  :lol:


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course, but no different to all the other Scottish newspapers.

Wings can be very funny at times, especially the Rev's latest offing.
Daren't put it up as I shall get those nasty rude boys calling me names again.  :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Nice of you not to mention the people of Wales in the latest edition. Perhaps you can do an amendment.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course, but no different to all the other Scottish newspapers.

Wings can be very funny at times, especially the Rev's latest offing.
Daren't put it up as I shall get those nasty rude boys calling me names again.  :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Further amendment required. Ms Sturgeon has not had any talks with EU ministers as she herself has stated today.

I know it's hard to keep up but do try.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Nice of you not to mention the people of Wales in the latest edition. Perhaps you can do an amendment.
		
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You read it then, helps the headcount.:lol:


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You read it then, helps the headcount.:lol:
		
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To be fair, there is some dire stuff in it but occasionally there's some really insightful stuff. Worth as read providing its done with an open mind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			To be fair, there is some dire stuff in it but occasionally there's some really insightful stuff. Worth as read providing its done with an open mind.
		
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Quite right, I did have my doubts about the Daily Telegraph insider reporting that Sturgeon had turned gay and joined the Tories.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite right, I did have my doubts about the Daily Telegraph insider reporting that Sturgeon had turned gay and joined the Tories.
		
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She seemed happy to me...


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite right, I did have my doubts about the Daily Telegraph insider reporting that Sturgeon had turned gay and joined the Tories.
		
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The Davidson effect, you'll all be gay tories soon.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You read it then, helps the headcount.:lol:
		
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Thought I'd keep your income up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We also need a new shadow Scottish Secretary as Ian Young has resigned.
For those not in the know Ian is Scotland's last Labour MP so no doubt we shall get an English or Welsh shadow secretary...super.
		
Click to expand...

Well it was Ian Murray who resigned - and Corbyn didn't replace him so currently there is no Shadow Scottish Secretary. Who is he going to put into that post after all - going to have to be a Welsh or English MP.  Oh joys for Labour in Scotland.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2016)

Perish the possibility that a non-Scot could actually be better than the Scot at doing the job..


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Perish the possibility that a non-Scot could actually be better than the Scot at doing the job..

Click to expand...

Labour will probably roll out some drunken ex criminal from the House of Lords to fill the spot.
Watch this space.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2016)

And...?
Your NBS attitude is very wearing...


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## DCB (Jun 27, 2016)

Ian Murray will has been a good local MP.


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## drdel (Jun 27, 2016)

I feel the need to apologise to all Scots - I'm English but have Scottish ancestors and I simply don't understand why the Scots are so insecure.

The Welsh seem to be happy and proud of being Welsh and use the devolved powers they have. Scotland takes a bunch of cash from UK tax payers to the tune of about Â£15bn but seem to be determined to "bite the hand that feeds them"!

Why can't Scotland be proud of their heritage, their Universities, IrnBru etc rather than keep bleeting on ?

As a UK citizen I'd like  a vote on whether the Union should be broken up - but no I have to suck it up because we're the big and nasty neighbour. A independent Scotland as an EU member would expected (based on GDP) to be a net contributor to Brussel and be on the hook when the shaky EU member banks need shoring up _ Good luck with that!

In all honesty I'm getting fed up with the continual carping if you dislike the English that much then sod off.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

drdel said:



			In all honesty I'm getting fed up with the continual carping if you dislike the English that much then sod off.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, they don't discriminate, they hate any country that won't bow down to their whims.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			To be fair, they don't discriminate, they hate any country that won't bow down to their whims.
		
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Having lived in Scotland for a good number of years of my life as well as working alongside many "they" is certainly not the majority and is as much a minority as the EDL etc right now so think it's very false to use generic statements of judgements against a whole nation - it certainly adds nothing but incite issues


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Having lived in Scotland for a good number of years of my life as well as working alongside many "they" is certainly not the majority and is as much a minority as the EDL etc right now so think it's very false to use generic statements of judgements against a whole nation - it certainly adds nothing but incite issues
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Phil, some outrageous statements on here again.


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## BrianM (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			To be fair, they don't discriminate, they hate any country that won't bow down to their whims.
		
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You talk some drivel.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Thank you Phil, some outrageous statements on here again.
		
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Apologise for making such a generalisation, I should have used some.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

BrianM said:



			You talk some drivel.
		
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Type


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Apologise for making such a generalisation, I should have used some.
		
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Nae bother. :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Having lived in Scotland for a good number of years of my life as well as working alongside many "they" is certainly not the majority and is as much a minority as the EDL etc right now so think it's very false to use generic statements of judgements against a whole nation - it certainly adds nothing but incite issues
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Phil.
One or two on here are crossing the line.
If you can't debate on here without insults, bullying and name calling please find somewhere else.


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## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			To be fair, they don't discriminate, they hate any country that won't bow down to their whims.
		
Click to expand...

Shocking statement


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## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you Phil.
*One or two on here are crossing the line.
If you can't debate on here without insults, bullying and name calling please find somewhere else*.
		
Click to expand...

.......   :rofl:


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2016)

Val said:



			Shocking statement 

Click to expand...

Agreed and I apologised however as DfT is the major protagonist and forever publishing anti British rubbish on here he gets the occasional bit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Agreed and I apologised however as DfT is the major protagonist and forever publishing anti British rubbish on here he gets the occasional bit.
		
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SNP supporter published anti British rubbish shocker. 
[anti UK Government would have been a more honest term]


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP supporter published anti British rubbish shocker. 
[anti UK Government would have been a more honest term]
		
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And Scotland does not own a component part of the UK Government because ...... :mmm:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

SNP are now the official opposition at Westminster as Wee Angus has the support of more MP's than Corbyn.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP are now the official opposition at Westminster as Wee Angus has the support of more MP's than Corbyn. 

Click to expand...

Ah, that figures.   They are now the official opposition to the opposition.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah, that figures.   They are now the official opposition to the opposition.
		
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It would be interesting to sum up the total number of MP's for each splinter group at Westminster.
It it carries on like this the Queen just might ask wee Angus to form a government.:lol: [smiley for SR & Skier only as most on here have a sense of humor]

It will be interesting to see how the speaker deals with Angus's question.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would be interesting to sum up the total number of MP's for each splinter group at Westminster.
It it carries on like this the Queen just might ask wee Angus to form a government.:lol: [smiley for SR & Skier only as most on here have a sense of humor]

It will be interesting to see how the speaker deals with Angus's question.
		
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Splitting my sides mate, it was so funny


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## JakeWS (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would be interesting to sum up the total number of MP's for each splinter group at Westminster.
It it carries on like this the Queen just might ask wee Angus to form a government.:lol: [smiley for SR & Skier only as most on here have a sense of humor]

It will be interesting to see how the speaker deals with Angus's question.
		
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Alex Salmond said give Nicola the keys to the Kingdom on TV the other day.


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## Pro Zach (Jun 29, 2016)

Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of an extreme nationalist political party. Her only aim is to gain independence from the UK  despite the fact that the majority voted to remain in the union. She does not represent the majority view of Scottish people nor does she care about the wishes of the majority of Scottish people. She has demonstrated complete contempt for the democratic majority vote and the majority of Scottish people by continuing to push the minority belief.

Before the EU referendum she indicated that a Scottish vote to remain might be used as a tool to hold another Scottish referendum.

Lets have a look at the results. 67% turnout. This is 18% lower than the Scottish referendum which  possibly suggests that the Scottish people aren't as bothered about European union as they are about UK union. 

62% voted to stay and 38% voted leave. This equates to 1,018,322 leave and 1,661,191 stay. If we take off the 45% vote of the nationalists who voted simply to force another independence referendum then we are left with 913,655 who voted to stay. Obviously we can't really assume all nationalists voted simply to force a referendum, but I think it is safe to assume many did. If you want to ignore all that  I will also point out that 2,001,926 Scots voted to remain in the UK and only 1,661,191 voted to remain in the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon has never had a mandate to speak for the Scottish people on UK independence as she is clearly not speaking for the majority.  She can not use the EU vote to speak for an independent Scotland because she never won the vote for an independent Scotland. A separate EU independence vote does not show a preference.

She is now suggesting that the majority of Scots voting to stay in the EU was a democratic majority vote. Now she must do what is best for the majority. It's a pity she didn't have the same attitude when the majority voted to stay in the UK. Is there a Scottish word for hypocrite?


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## DCB (Jun 29, 2016)

Vive la France


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would be interesting to sum up the total number of MP's for each splinter group at Westminster.
It it carries on like this the Queen just might ask wee Angus to form a government.:lol: [smiley for SR & Skier only as most on here have a sense of humor].
		
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No need bud it's the Internet , we're all aloud to put up our own rubbish posts, yours just top the charts. :blah:


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## Val (Jun 29, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of an extreme nationalist political party. Her only aim is to gain independence from the UK  despite the fact that the majority voted to remain in the union. She does not represent the majority view of Scottish people nor does she care about the wishes of the majority of Scottish people. She has demonstrated complete contempt for the democratic majority vote and the majority of Scottish people by continuing to push the minority belief.

Before the EU referendum she indicated that a Scottish vote to remain might be used as a tool to hold another Scottish referendum.

Lets have a look at the results. 67% turnout. This is 18% lower than the Scottish referendum which  possibly suggests that the Scottish people aren't as bothered about European union as they are about UK union. 

62% voted to stay and 38% voted leave. This equates to 1,018,322 leave and 1,661,191 stay. If we take off the 45% vote of the nationalists who voted simply to force another independence referendum then we are left with 913,655 who voted to stay. Obviously we can't really assume all nationalists voted simply to force a referendum, but I think it is safe to assume many did. If you want to ignore all that  I will also point out that 2,001,926 Scots voted to remain in the UK and only 1,661,191 voted to remain in the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon has never had a mandate to speak for the Scottish people on UK independence as she is clearly not speaking for the majority.  She can not use the EU vote to speak for an independent Scotland because she never won the vote for an independent Scotland. A separate EU independence vote does not show a preference.

She is now suggesting that the majority of Scots voting to stay in the EU was a democratic majority vote. Now she must do what is best for the majority. It's a pity she didn't have the same attitude when the majority voted to stay in the UK. Is there a Scottish word for hypocrite?
		
Click to expand...

Great post :thup:


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## One Planer (Jun 29, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of an extreme nationalist political party. Her only aim is to gain independence from the UK  despite the fact that the majority voted to remain in the union. She does not represent the majority view of Scottish people nor does she care about the wishes of the majority of Scottish people. She has demonstrated complete contempt for the democratic majority vote and the majority of Scottish people by continuing to push the minority belief.

Before the EU referendum she indicated that a Scottish vote to remain might be used as a tool to hold another Scottish referendum.

Lets have a look at the results. 67% turnout. This is 18% lower than the Scottish referendum which  possibly suggests that the Scottish people aren't as bothered about European union as they are about UK union. 

62% voted to stay and 38% voted leave. This equates to 1,018,322 leave and 1,661,191 stay. If we take off the 45% vote of the nationalists who voted simply to force another independence referendum then we are left with 913,655 who voted to stay. Obviously we can't really assume all nationalists voted simply to force a referendum, but I think it is safe to assume many did. If you want to ignore all that  I will also point out that 2,001,926 Scots voted to remain in the UK and only 1,661,191 voted to remain in the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon has never had a mandate to speak for the Scottish people on UK independence as she is clearly not speaking for the majority.  She can not use the EU vote to speak for an independent Scotland because she never won the vote for an independent Scotland. A separate EU independence vote does not show a preference.

She is now suggesting that the majority of Scots voting to stay in the EU was a democratic majority vote. Now she must do what is best for the majority. It's a pity she didn't have the same attitude when the majority voted to stay in the UK. Is there a Scottish word for hypocrite?
		
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:clap:  :clap:  :clap:


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## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

Great post indeed. :thup:


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

Val said:



			Great post :thup:
		
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Indeed.

It's being reported that Spain have said they would block an independent Scotland. If that is enough, and my understanding is that it is, it's a tough sell to Scotish people to hold another referendum, become independent and then not get a place in the EU. 

In what order does NS do things to move her agenda forwards in any way from here?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Interesting number crunching, pro zach, but you missed a huge segment of the electorate. Those that voted to stay in the uk knowing that meant they would also stay in the uk and who, if really pushed to choose, would pick the Eu over the uk. Impossible to say how many fall into this category, anecdotally it is a pretty big segment. I have been shocked by some die hard "no" voters who have said they'd consider independence if it meant they could stay in the eu.

It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but if article 50 is triggered Scottish independence is inevitable.


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## Val (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting number crunching, pro zach, but you missed a huge segment of the electorate. Those that voted to stay in the uk knowing that meant they would also stay in the uk and who, if really pushed to choose, would pick the Eu over the uk. Impossible to say how many fall into this category, anecdotally it is a pretty big segment. I have been shocked by some die hard "no" voters who have said they'd consider independence if it meant they could stay in the eu.

*It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but if article 50 is triggered Scottish independence is inevitable.*

Click to expand...

I felt it would happen at some point if I'm honest but not this soon. Hopefully this all blows over in time and we go back to some sort of normality without fighting over the EU and Scottish Independence


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting number crunching, pro zach, but you missed a huge segment of the electorate. Those that voted to stay in the uk knowing that meant they would also stay in the uk and who, if really pushed to choose, would pick the Eu over the uk. Impossible to say how many fall into this category, anecdotally it is a pretty big segment. I have been shocked by some die hard "no" voters who have said they'd consider independence if it meant they could stay in the eu.

It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but if article 50 is triggered Scottish independence is inevitable.
		
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And if that is a drum the Scotish people still want to bang after they had a chance to become independent already then.... They should go. How often can you throw your toys out of the pram before it become obvious that your not a trusted ally?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			And if that is a drum the Scotish people still want to bang after they had a chance to become independent already then.... They should go. How often can you throw your toys out of the pram before it become obvious that your not a trusted ally?
		
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I think you don't get it. The mood has changed. This sort of immature rhetoric only fans the flames.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think you don't get it. The mood has changed. This sort of immature rhetoric only fans the flames.
		
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It's not what I want and it was you that said it. How quick and how often is the mood going to change? Are we the UNITED Kingdom, are just so until the "mood changes". Not a lot of time has passed and your claiming the mood has changed. If that's how quick it happens than sadly... Get it done.

And no, I don't get it....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			And if that is a drum the Scotish people still want to bang after they had a chance to become independent already then.... They should go. How often can you throw your toys out of the pram before it become obvious that your not a trusted ally?
		
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Right now they aren't throwing toys out of the pram - they have a legitimate claim to be independent after the Vote. Scotland staying part of the U.K. after claims it would be for the benefit of keeping them in the EU - that's clearly turning out now to be untrue and they want to stay a part of the single trade market as they feel it's what is best for Scotland - nothing to do with trusted allies ( but even then why should they trust England after the last week )


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right now they aren't throwing toys out of the pram - they have a legitimate claim to be independent after the Vote. Scotland staying part of the U.K. after claims it would be for the benefit of keeping them in the EU - that's clearly turning out now to be untrue and they want to stay a part of the single trade market as they feel it's what is best for Scotland - nothing to do with trusted allies ( but even then why should they trust England after the last week )
		
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Lol ye ok... Sadly the English, Welsh and Irish people who wanted to stay don't get to call for another referendum do they... They don't get to walk away. It's called democracy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Lol ye ok... Sadly the English, Welsh and Irish people who wanted to stay don't get to call for another referendum do they... They don't get to walk away. It's called democracy.
		
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Well I expect N Ireland will be next and will look to join with the Republic to make it all one Ireland. 

The vote has a lot of consequences to the make up of the U.K. 

Did you see the result of Scotland and N Ireland and indeed Gibralter - is that not also called Democracy when all three counties voted to stay in the EU - or does that not count ?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			It's not what I want and it was you that said it. How quick and how often is the mood going to change? Are we the UNITED Kingdom, are just so until the "mood changes". Not a lot of time has passed and your claiming the mood has changed. If that's how quick it happens than sadly... Get it done.

And no, I don't get it....

Click to expand...

Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think you don't get it. The mood has changed. This sort of immature rhetoric only fans the flames.
		
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The mood has seriously changed.
I have four friends and family who are staunchly against the SNP. Three Tories one Labour/Lib Dem
I have always thought of them as my weather vane and if one or two of them switch to wanting an independent Scotland then it will happen.
Three of the four would now vote for an independent Scotland. I have not talked to the fourth one but would be seriously amazed if he switched.
The thing that many in England /Wales do not understand is that there is a fair amount of support for Independence from outside of the SNP.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The mood has seriously changed.
I have four friends and family who are staunchly against the SNP. Three Tories one Labour/Lib Dem
I have always thought of them as my weather vane and if one or two of them switch to wanting an independent Scotland then it will happen.
Three of the four would now vote for an independent Scotland. I have not talked to the fourth one but would be seriously amazed if he switched.
The thing that many in England /Wales do not understand is that there is a fair amount of support for Independence from outside of the SNP.
		
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Exactly, and this is happening all over Scotland.


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I expect N Ireland will be next and will look to join with the Republic to make it all one Ireland. 

The vote has a lot of consequences to the make up of the U.K. 

Did you see the result of Scotland and N Ireland and indeed Gibralter - is that not also called Democracy when all three counties voted to stay in the EU - or does that not count ?
		
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No it doesn't count. The democratic process, in this instance, was based on a single entity, the UK, requiring a majority vote to stay or go. That vote was taken, and the result was Leave. Having declared the result for each country in the UK, because of the devolved parliament needing to decide on legislative consent, has led to the position we're now in.

For respect of democracy I would like to see each devolved parliament respect the single entity vote, but then raise the issue of independence as a separate piece of legislation.

Do I respect Nicola Sturgeon for using the vote the way she is? Absolutely not. I think her opportunism, on the back of turning her back to democracy is a disgrace. She isn't fit to be a politician, or maybe she is just what a politician is these days.

I would have far more respect for her if she'd acknowledged the democratic process, but then sought independence fairly rather than threaten to block democracy.


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## DCB (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.
		
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Unfortunately this is becoming all too evident at the moment. People are talking from the heart rather than using the head. Yes things have changed in the past 20 months, but, there are a number of vital things that are not being taken into account this week. I fail to see how Scotland can afford to go it along in the present climate. The oil industry is in dire straits, so, what will underpin our economy. I really do fear for the future now.


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## One Planer (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.
		
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Genuine question Karen. 

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?


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## DCB (Jun 29, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Genuine question Karen. 

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?
		
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Oh yes, we'd be bankrupt within five years &#128559;


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## Val (Jun 29, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Genuine question Karen. 

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?
		
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Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			No it doesn't count. The democratic process, in this instance, was based on a single entity, the UK, requiring a majority vote to stay or go. That vote was taken, and the result was Leave. Having declared the result for each country in the UK, because of the devolved parliament needing to decide on legislative consent, has led to the position we're now in.

For respect of democracy I would like to see each devolved parliament respect the single entity vote, but then raise the issue of independence as a separate piece of legislation.

Do I respect Nicola Sturgeon for using the vote the way she is? Absolutely not. I think her opportunism, on the back of turning her back to democracy is a disgrace. She isn't fit to be a politician, or maybe she is just what a politician is these days.

I would have far more respect for her if she'd acknowledged the democratic process, but then sought independence fairly rather than threaten to block democracy.
		
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Ever since the vote a lot of people have been throwing the word democracy around a lot 

I didn't really think too much about it until I read this extract from someone's blog - 

*secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was â€˜Advisory,â€™ not legally binding. The vote itself  is not â€˜democracyâ€™. Democracy doesnâ€™t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I havenâ€™t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I donâ€™t like, and I donâ€™t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.*

Here is the full blog - no doubt a lot will dismiss it as unqualified ramblings but some parts will strike a cord 

https://katyboo1.wordpress.com


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## One Planer (Jun 29, 2016)

Val said:



			Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum
		
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So. She's stokes up a wave of nationalism in the hope she hears what she wants from Europe's representatives. More and more joining the independence camp. 

If she doesn't hear what she wants, any future membership post Brexit is off the table, has she effectively ended her political career?


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## Pro Zach (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting number crunching, pro zach, but you missed a huge segment of the electorate. Those that voted to stay in the uk knowing that meant they would also stay in the uk and who, if really pushed to choose, would pick the Eu over the uk. Impossible to say how many fall into this category, anecdotally it is a pretty big segment. I have been shocked by some die hard "no" voters who have said they'd consider independence if it meant they could stay in the eu.

It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but if article 50 is triggered Scottish independence is inevitable.
		
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I think you slightly miss my point. I don't know how huge 'that segment' is. As you said, â€œit is impossible to say how many fall into that categoryâ€. I am saying you can't use the two separate referendums, one of which is possible biased by nationalists, to draw conclusions. I would say that if the people are more pro EU than UK I would have expected a larger turn out for the EU referendum. But again, I wouldn't use this presumption as strong evidence. 

I would expect at the moment to get the anecdotal evidence you suggest, because at first sight it could appear that the numbers mean what Nicola Sturgeon  suggests.  But if you had another referendum these numbers would be questioned. 

Non of the evidence is strong enough to presume which union the Scottish people would prefer and in my opinion it is arrogant to assume it does. Only by asking them would we know what they want when push comes to shove.

As an aside, I think all political unions are destined to fail at some point, for various reasons. And I certainly don't think the EU will stand the test of time.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ever since the vote a lot of people have been throwing the word democracy around a lot 

I didn't really think too much about it until I read this extract from someone's blog - 

*secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was â€˜Advisory,â€™ not legally binding. The vote itself  is not â€˜democracyâ€™. Democracy doesnâ€™t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I havenâ€™t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I donâ€™t like, and I donâ€™t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.*

Here is the full blog - no doubt a lot will dismiss it as unqualified ramblings but some parts will strike a cord 

https://katyboo1.wordpress.com

Click to expand...


Ohhh I see, random internet bloggers... Perfect, I'll stand down then, you have all the facts... It's laughable Phil, come on, your a smart cookie.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Ohhh I see, random internet bloggers... Perfect, I'll stand down then, you have all the facts... It's laughable Phil, come on, your a smart cookie.
		
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What's the problem ? It's just someone's opinion - no one said it facts or said you had to stand down. If you don't agree with what the person is saying then fair enough - for me there is a good amount in there that sums up a lot of what I have seen and heard over the last 4 days. I suppose you could counter with some thoughtful points of your own instead of being dismissive of other or is it hard to do that whilst laughing at others opinions.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.
		
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It was not my intent to offend. I would very much like the UK to stay as it is. What I am saying is that if there is another referendum and Scotland vote to leave, that is how it should be. I believe in democracy. If the majority of Scots want to go, then make it so. It's going to get old fast if every time there is a bump in the road Scotland calls for a referendum it's going to get old fast, it's a bad look for Scotland and unsettling for the UK.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

No I understood your point but was trying to highlight the flaw in it. Everyone here knows the landscape has changed just by talking to their friends, neighbours and colleagues. Your figures are already out of date, we've moved on, your analysis is wrong.


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## Pro Zach (Jun 29, 2016)

One Planer said:



			So. She's stokes up a wave of nationalism in the hope she hears what she wants from Europe's representatives. More and more joining the independence camp. 

If she doesn't hear what she wants, any future membership post Brexit is off the table, has she effectively ended her political career?
		
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No. The Scottish referendum made independence inevitable. 45% of the people want independence. This is a large minority that will keep voting in a nationalist government. This means they have no real influence in the UK parliament and almost guarantees a Tory government. This party is working for the minority while ignoring the wishes of the unionist majority. This will lead to union membership being untenable.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Val said:



			Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum
		
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She's playing a blinder at the moment while the farce at Westminster shows no sign of settling down.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's the problem ? It's just someone's opinion - no one said it facts or said you had to stand down. If you don't agree with what the person is saying then fair enough - for me there is a good amount in there that sums up a lot of what I have seen and heard over the last 4 days. I suppose you could counter with some thoughtful points of your own instead of being dismissive of other or is it hard to do that whilst laughing at others opinions.
		
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If you say something intelligent I'll attempt an intelligent response. You asked if I had seen the NI and Gibrolta result, thus demonstrating you did not understand how the vote worked. You then went on to give some randoms version of what democracy means. No problem, there is just no substance to your ramblings.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			No I understood your point but was trying to highlight the flaw in it. Everyone here knows the landscape has changed just by talking to their friends, neighbours and colleagues. Your figures are already out of date, we've moved on, your analysis is wrong.
		
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If this was a response to me. I see no flaw in what I have said. If this is what the majority want, get on with it. I want what the most of Scots want. However, let's say you go again and again the vote is to stay in the UK... Are you going to try again and again?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			If you say something intelligent I'll attempt an intelligent response. You asked if I had seen the NI and Gibrolta result, thus demonstrating you did not understand how the vote worked. You then went on to give some randoms version of what democracy means. No problem, there is just no substance to your ramblings.
		
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I know full well how the vote works and my post from that blog was not in response to anything you said but in response to what Brian when talking about democracy - I thought it summed up things quite well - you didn't - cest la vie and I'll await you actually adding something beyond throwing cheap digs - have a nice day :thup:


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's the problem ? It's just someone's opinion - no one said it facts or said you had to stand down. If you don't agree with what the person is saying then fair enough - for me there is a good amount in there that sums up a lot of what I have seen and heard over the last 4 days. I suppose you could counter with some thoughtful points of your own instead of being dismissive of other or is it hard to do that whilst laughing at others opinions.
		
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There's huge slice of sense in it apart from it doesn't acknowledge the process that includes acting on the result. Yes, as he says, you can then work to change the chosen course.

Ok, people are (rightly) highlighting the legal aspects, for example, it a referendum so it only advisory.

But do you know what, if we all can't respect a democratic process we might as well accept a bullying dictatorship. And that is the route we're going down. Losers bullying.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know full well how the vote works and my post from that blog was not in response to anything you said but in response to what Brian when talking about democracy - I thought it summed up things quite well - you didn't - cest la vie and I'll await you actually adding something beyond throwing cheap digs - have a nice day :thup:
		
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So your happy to retract the comment:

"Did you see the result of Scotland and N Ireland and indeed Gibralter - is that not also called Democracy when all three counties voted to stay in the EU - or does that not count ?"

?

Don't get defensive Phil, I'm just chatting this through.


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## Pro Zach (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			She's playing a blinder at the moment while the farce at Westminster shows no sign of settling down.
		
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She appears to be playing a blinder because she is not doing the same job as other politicians. She is not trying to do what is best for the people of the UK, she is trying to gain Scottish independence from the UK. I suspect she would form a political union with North Korea if she thought it would get Scotland out of the UK.


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## lobthewedge (Jun 30, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			She appears to be playing a blinder because she is not doing the same job as other politicians. She is not trying to do what is best for the people of the UK, she is trying to gain Scottish independence from the UK. I suspect she would form a political union with North Korea if she thought it would get Scotland out of the UK.
		
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The woman is a fanatic, driven by ego and a blinkered lust for independence, no matter the cost.

Have all those bleating for Indy ref 2 given any thought to what an independent Scotland would look like given the state of the oil industry and the certainty that we would be forced to take the euro??  

It is a time for cool heads, acceptance, reasoned thought and negotiation.  If she was a true leader she would be acting as such for Scotland and the uk as a whole, using her position to get heads round tables in a bid to put together a plan for the country moving forward.

Instead she is kicking us while we are down, creating ever more division and uncertainty at the precise time we don't need it. She is no better than her Westminster counterparts - greedy, selfish and blinkered by their own ambitions.  

I despair for Scotland and Britain, countries that I love, and am furious and saddened at the diabolical calibre of politician I have been lumbered with for the last 20 years. Politicians who are entirely to blame for the position we find ourselves in.


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## sawtooth (Jun 30, 2016)

It looks to me that any Scot that votes/is calling for independence is really saying " I dislike the English"


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			If this was a response to me. I see no flaw in what I have said. If this is what the majority want, get on with it. I want what the most of Scots want. However, let's say you go again and again the vote is to stay in the UK... Are you going to try again and again?
		
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It wasn't a response to you.

It's not me that wants independence, I'm against having another vote and against the neverendum.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			It looks to me that any Scot that votes/is calling for independence is really saying " I dislike the English"
		
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That's analogous to calling all brexiters racist. There's maybe a kernel of truth when applied to a proportion of them, but certainly not all.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			She appears to be playing a blinder because she is not doing the same job as other politicians. She is not trying to do what is best for the people of the UK, she is trying to gain Scottish independence from the UK. I suspect she would form a political union with North Korea if she thought it would get Scotland out of the UK.
		
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She's seizing the opportunity to further her agenda but, in the process, appealing to a wide range of scots who previously opposed her but are appalled that England has voted us out of Europe. Meanwhile the uk politicians appear to be doing nothing at all. They are neither opposing brexit nor going ahead and implementing it.


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			If this was a response to me. I see no flaw in what I have said. If this is what the majority want, get on with it. I want what the most of Scots want. However, let's say you go again and again the vote is to stay in the UK... Are you going to try again and again?
		
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I think what you miss is in the phrase "what most Scots want" it should read "what most scots wanted" past tense. It's what most wanted in 2014, chances are if we had another vote tomorrow the result would be massively in favour of independence.

The independence movement has moved on rapidly since 2014 and the ground swell of opinion is for independence. The infighting between both major parties in Westminster is helping the independence cause. All you have to do is look at the GE to see the protest vote there from Scotland.


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## sawtooth (Jun 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's analogous to calling all brexiters racist. There's maybe a kernel of truth when applied to a proportion of them, but certainly not all.
		
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I don't see much comparison to Brexit tbh.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			I don't see much comparison to Brexit tbh.
		
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Hmm, ok then, to me the connection seems obvious wrt your earlier comment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			I don't see much comparison to Brexit tbh.
		
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You are making whole judgements towards Scottish people who want to be independent so I think it's fair then that people can make whole judgements towards people who wanted independance from EU


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			It looks to me that any Scot that votes/is calling for independence is really saying " I dislike the English"
		
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Disgraceful comment.


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## sawtooth (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Disgraceful comment.
		
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Why is it disgraceful? That's my opinion and the feeling I get when I watch and listen to Sturgeon.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Why is it disgraceful? That's my opinion and the feeling I get when I watch and listen to Sturgeon.
		
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It's a poor thing to say and do - judging people on the basis off one person ? Surely you can't think that 

It would be like people judging everyone that voted out on the actions and words of Farage - do you think that would be fair and right ? 


There seems to me a growing nasty undertone from English people towards Scotland and EU and it's creeping onto the boards - that can only increase unpleasantries between people on the forum and that won't end well - maybe let's all be a bit more friendly and end it before it gets worse


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Genuine question Karen. 

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?
		
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Don't know is the answer. Feelings are running high and a rational economic argument might be ignored by even more this time than it was last time.

Truth is even the unionists amongst us are embarrassed to be associated with insular little Britain post-brexit.

I'll say it again, if the SNP can get confirmation from the eu that Scotland would be welcome then independence is certain. Even if they can't get that, it's highly likely. I'm not happy about that but I'd say that sums up the mood here.


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## BrianM (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			It looks to me that any Scot that votes/is calling for independence is really saying " I dislike the English"
		
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Your saying that 'IF' I wanted to vote for independence if there was another vote, I dislike the English?


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			It looks to me that any Scot that votes/is calling for independence is really saying " I dislike the English"
		
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You're detached from reality then


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## lobthewedge (Jun 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'll say it again, if the SNP can get confirmation from the eu that Scotland would be welcome then independence is certain. Even if they can't get that, it's highly likely. I'm not happy about that but I'd say that sums up the mood here.
		
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Totally agree with you Karen, and demonstrates how toxic the situation.

These people are so angry and blinded by hatred for Westminster (not England) that they will happily be lead into an even worse situation.  We will be a tiny, insignificant speck in the European project with Brussels calling the shots and lumbered with a currency we have absolutely no control over.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			She's seizing the opportunity to further her agenda but, in the process, appealing to a wide range of scots who previously opposed her *but are appalled that England has voted us out of Europe.* Meanwhile the uk politicians appear to be doing nothing at all. They are neither opposing brexit nor going ahead and implementing it.
		
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Can I just point out that it was a UK vote to leave the EU and was in fact a majority in England AND WALES that voted to leave not just England. I'm sure it wasn't your intention with your post but a lot of Scottish nationalists (not that I'm accusing you of being one) seem to be focusing on England solely being to blame for the Leave vote which to me further stokes anti English feeling in Scotland.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can I just point out that it was a UK vote to leave the EU and was in fact a majority in England AND WALES that voted to leave not just England. I'm sure it wasn't your intention with your post but a lot of Scottish nationalists (not that I'm accusing you of being one) seem to be focusing on England solely being to blame for the Leave vote which to me further stokes anti English feeling in Scotland.
		
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Fair point, just laziness with my typing rather than anti-Englishness.


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can I just point out that it was a UK vote to leave the EU and was in fact a majority in England AND WALES that voted to leave not just England. I'm sure it wasn't your intention with your post but a lot of Scottish nationalists (not that I'm accusing you of being one) seem to be focusing on England solely being to blame for the Leave vote which to me further stokes anti English feeling in Scotland.
		
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She may have said her typing was laziness but it is true, many believe England (not England and Wales) took us out and that is all Westminsters fault. 

It may not be right but it's the way many think


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2016)

Val said:



			She may have said her typing was laziness but it is true, many believe England (not England and Wales) took us out and that is all Westminsters fault. 

It may not be right but it's the way many think
		
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And with Wales - turkeys and Christmas comes to mind.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 30, 2016)

Val said:



			She may have said her typing was laziness but it is true, many believe England (not England and Wales) took us out and that is all Westminsters fault. 

It may not be right but it's the way many think
		
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Intelligent stuff..........


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## Jacko_G (Jun 30, 2016)

London only has itself to blame for the EU vote.

They need to realise that there is life north of London. Hence why the UK voted London out of the EU. Cameron gambled by rolling the dice twice, he dodged the first bullet in the Scottish referendum however committed suicide on the EU.

Sturgeon has now won a watch as the farmers and rural communities who all voted remain during the Scottish referendum to keep their EU subsidies are now all wanting an independent Scotland as part of the EU.

I'm personally sick and tired of it all now. I'd love to know how much the last referendum cost Scotland and how many new hospitals, schools, or doctors or teachers could have been built/employed with that money.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

Plea to all the international charity organisers


Scotlanders are starting to run out of popcorn.


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## MarkE (Jun 30, 2016)

Do the Scots, in general, have the same disdain for the 1m+ Scottish voters who voted to remain? and even higher number that voted to preserve the union? I'm not having a dig at anyone, just don't understand how Scotland works. There's an obvious anti-English element,  but do they lump their fellow countryman in with those damned English, who hav'nt voted in line with their own preferences? Just wondering.


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Do the Scots, in general, have the same disdain for the 1m+ Scottish voters who voted to remain? and even higher number that voted to preserve the union? I'm not having a dig at anyone, just don't understand how Scotland works. There's an obvious anti-English element,  but do they lump their fellow countryman in with those damned English, who hav'nt voted in line with their own preferences? Just wondering.
		
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The way I see it is that there is not so much as anti English but anti Westminster (big difference). There is an element of backlash in Scotland following the 2014 referendum when Labour aligned itself with the Torries who are still to this day hated by many Scots due to Thatchers dismantling of the coal, steel and car industries in Scotland, throw in the poll tax too where Scotland had it a year before everyone else. I get it that it was almost a generation ago but it still lingers.

Many undelivered promises after the referendum left many labour voters disillusioned with Scottish labour hence the mass move to the SNP.

Dont connect remain in the EU as a vote for independence, they were 2 massively different things despite Sturgeons spin. Many Scots would vote no for independence and remain with the EU as I did.


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And with Wales - turkeys and Christmas comes to mind.
		
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Along with the Westminister your views of the Welsh seems to be somewhat derogatory.

If someone makes comments against our Scottish friends everyone jumps on it, I await their reaction with interest .


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## MarkE (Jun 30, 2016)

Val said:



			The way I see it is that there is not so much as anti English but anti Westminster (big difference). There is an element of backlash in Scotland following the 2014 referendum when Labour aligned itself with the Torries who are still to this day hated by many Scots due to Thatchers dismantling of the coal, steel and car industries in Scotland, throw in the poll tax too where Scotland had it a year before everyone else. I get it that it was almost a generation ago but it still lingers.

Many undelivered promises after the referendum left many labour voters disillusioned with Scottish labour hence the mass move to the SNP.

Dont connect remain in the EU as a vote for independence, they were 2 massively different things despite Sturgeons spin. Many Scots would vote no for independence and remain with the EU as I did.
		
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OK, Thanks. The anti-Westminster thing is pretty much UK wide then. I don't think the Scots realise that a huge number of the English feel the same way, with everything being centered on London. Brexit was largely due to this precise reason, a backlash against the establishment.


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Plea to all the international charity organisers


Scotlanders are starting to run out of popcorn.

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Your welcome


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## Alex1975 (Jun 30, 2016)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 20058



Your welcome
		
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It's not though is it.... It's just chat.


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## KenL (Jun 30, 2016)

Was the vote not anti-immigration rather than anti-Westminster?

I am born and bred in Scotland.  I voted no for Scottish parliament, no for independence and YES for remain.

The Scottish parliament has far too much power already.  Why give free travel to people aged 60 in full time employment and millionaire pensioners?  They have also wasted billions on the parliament building, trams in Edinburgh and free prescriptions for all.  At the same time education is in disarray and nobody wants to be a GP!


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2016)

So this can all be summarised to...

Scotland whinges and gains some control from Westminster who got the rest of the UK to stump up cash.

Scotland's main heavy industries became more uncompetitive (as for UK and others) so Scotland wants more cash from UK and EU.

Defence spending falls; UK starts to bulk at paying more and more transfers its allegiance  so now Scotland hopes the align with EU so they will give them the hand-outs they are convinced they are owed. Be interesting to know if the average Scot realises that (if they were successful) the EU will want paying more than they give back because they already have more basket cases than they can handle.


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

drdel said:



			So this can all be summarised to...

Scotland whinges and gains some control from Westminster who got the rest of the UK to stump up cash.

Scotland's main heavy industries became more uncompetitive (as for UK and others) so Scotland wants more cash from UK and EU.

Defence spending falls; UK starts to bulk at paying more and more transfers its allegiance  so now Scotland hopes the align with EU so they will give them the hand-outs they are convinced they are owed. Be interesting to know if the average Scot realises that (if they were successful) the EU will want paying more than they give back because they already have more basket cases than they can handle.
		
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No, not really. Just your generalising


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2016)

^^^ So 'generalising' yup, you have the specifics?


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## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

drdel said:



			^^^ So 'generalising' yup, you have the specifics?
		
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Yip, when you say Scotland, you generalise and when you do that the rest is irrelevant.

If you want specifics maybe you should be specific yourself.


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## MarkE (Jun 30, 2016)

KenL said:



			Was the vote not anti-immigration rather than anti-Westminster?
		
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It's only really the last 5 years or so that immigration was ever mentioned as a problem in my neck of the woods(East anglia). Wheras anti Westminster and especially anti EU sentiment is long established. Immigration may well have recently pushed us to a Leave vote but it was'nt the driving force.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

KenL said:



			Was the vote not anti-immigration rather than anti-Westminster?

I am born and bred in Scotland.  I voted no for Scottish parliament, no for independence and YES for remain.

The Scottish parliament has far too much power already.  Why give free travel to people aged 60 in full time employment and millionaire pensioners?  They have also wasted billions on the parliament building, trams in Edinburgh and free prescriptions for all.  At the same time education is in disarray and nobody wants to be a GP!
		
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Trams were an Edinburgh [Labour] Council disaster.
It cost more to collect the money and manage prescription fee systems. Making them free actually saved money.
Parliament Building was a Donald Dewer [Labour] disaster.
GP's are a UK problem, Scotland doing better than rUK
Education, not so sure about that. My Council seems to be doing quite a good job, others seem to be struggling.

I will agree about the OAP bus fares though.:lol:


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