# RBZ Stage 2 Driver Shaft Snapped



## corrupthalo (May 26, 2014)

Hi all 

Basically this is a post to rant and vent some anger and frustration. 

Yesterday the shaft on my 2 month old RBZ Stage 2 Driver snapped and now it's in 2 pieces. Took it back to American Golf and they said that Taylormade won't replace it due to the shaft happening in the middle of the shaft. Apparently they measured and spoke to Taylormade and nothing will get done about it. I had to argue to get them to even send it away to Taylormade. 

Anyone else had driver shafts snap in this way? Driver hasn't even mistreated in any way. It was a great club and in fact I was looking at the Taylormade Rocketbladz irons but now have distrust about the build quality in Taylormade's equipment. 

Not it a happy bunny at all


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## Ethan (May 26, 2014)

Don't take no for an answer. TM presumably consider any mid shaft break as being the result of deliberate whacking of a tree or the like, and that may be often true, but it doesn't mean they can apply a blanket policy just like that, and they still have obligations under Sale of Goods Act. If the shaft broke in normal use within the warranty period, you are entitled to a replacement shaft. End of story. 

if you bought it with a credit card, you credit card company is also liable, but press the retailer first. 

You could also try a post on either TM or AG's Facebook page, protesting the problem. You might well get a swift positive response. 

The stock shafts used by TM are not the best quality, either. A google search should find a video where they were tested by a club fitter and found to be rather weak.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2014)

Plenty of TM, or proper, shafts available on Ebay.

And the beauty is, the shaft can simply be swapped!

TM stock shafts are built to a $ point, not a quality one - though the quality tolerances may actually be finer than higher cost shafts.


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

Contact TM customer service here:
http://taylormadegolf.co.uk/customerService-warranty/customerService-warranty,en_GB,pg.html

Either way, your warranty exists with the shop at which the club was purchased and this is where you have the legal right to pursue a claim for faulty goods. It may be difficult to prove that the shaft broke under the normal course of play though, but the more evidence and details you can provide the better. Regardless of the alleged quality of the shaft in question, they are not designed to break under normal circumstances and mid-shaft breaks are quite rare. Shafts have to pass basic QC checks to make sure failures like these don't happen. Much more likely breakage points are the butt and tip, where they have been prepped or manipulated to build a club. 
Best of luck with your claim, but you may be in for lengthy negotiations before you get any satisfaction.


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## corrupthalo (May 26, 2014)

Cheers for all the replies guys. Have to wait 3 weeks until I get the official word from Taylormade that the shaft won't be replaced before I can pursue anything. But thanks for the help


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## hovis (May 26, 2014)

Take this misfortune as a blessing and get a after market shaft in that bad boy. You'd be amazed at what it "can" offer your driving


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Take this misfortune as a blessing and get a after market shaft in that bad boy. You'd be amazed at what it "can" offer your driving
		
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does that apply to any after market shaft?


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## hovis (May 26, 2014)

nemicu said:



			does that apply to any after market shaft?

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I would say no but anythings better than the rubbish stock option (imo of course)


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## ToddM1985 (May 26, 2014)

Iv worked in the industry and as a rule TMade will replace shafts if they snap at the top or bottom but the middle is usually a sign of the gold old whack on the floor after a bad drive. American Golf have done nothing wrong by the way Taylor Made will make the call. Go on Twitter or Facebook and post a pic to Taylormade Europe they don't like bad publicity and see what they. Best of luck!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

I'm guessing it snapped during a tee shot ?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 26, 2014)

Surely your contract is with AG as you purchased from them and so whether TM will or won't do anything the liability is with AG if the driver isn't fit for purpose. I assume it was in the course of a normal shot and not testing its aerodynamic capabilities!


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## Oddsocks (May 26, 2014)

AG could easily lose one from their fitting cart to keep you happy, but as said there are lost of cheap shafts on eBay and on here, why not tune that bad boy with something better, generally as said TM stock shafts are toss.


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## drdel (May 26, 2014)

corrupthalo said:



			Cheers for all the replies guys. Have to wait 3 weeks until I get the official word from Taylormade that the shaft won't be replaced before I can pursue anything. But thanks for the help 

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You do not have to wait and suffer the loss of use of an item you have just bought and used for the purpose it was made - if it was broken by hitting something other than a golf ball it would show evidence of impact damage. 

You have a contract with AG, NOT Taylormade. AG's deal with TM is their business; the TM warranty merely sits behind AG and is to their advantage and does not affect or detract from your rights.  Your rights are with AG and under the Sale of Goods you do not have to prove anything as within 6 months any fault is considered to have existed at the time of manufacture.


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## palindromicbob (May 26, 2014)

At 2 months old the burden of proof that the fault is not due to the product lies with the retailer. Had it been after 6 months that burden switches to the owner but you have consumer rights on your side.  

Go to AG again and don't let them fob you off to Taylormade. They have to prove that you and not the shaft are at fault. It is up to them to pursue the matter with Taylormade.  It isn't that Taylormade won't replace the shaft for you. It's that they won't replace the shaft for them.  I am sick of seeing companies fob the consumer off to the manufacturer.

Good chance the guy you are dealing with in the shop is not fully aware of the consumer law that backs you up and will try to fob it off.


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

drdel said:



			You do not have to wait and suffer the loss of use of an item you have just bought and used for the purpose it was made - if it was broken by hitting something other than a golf ball it would show evidence of impact damage. 

You have a contract with AG, NOT Taylormade. AG's deal with TM is their business; the TM warranty merely sits behind AG and is to their advantage and does not affect or detract from your rights.  Your rights are with AG and under the Sale of Goods you do not have to prove anything as within 6 months any fault is considered to have existed at the time of manufacture.
		
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Not quite as cut and dried as that I'm afraid. The consumer has to prove that the failure occurred in normal use. In over 30 years, I've yet to see a graphite shaft break in half in the middle under normal use. AG are well within their rights to be suspicious of how the breakage occurred, just as the consumer is well within their rights to ask TM to inspect the club for appraisal to pursue any warranty claim. In other words, you need substantial proof - not "you do not have to prove anything" as you implied.


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## Dcross92 (May 26, 2014)

i snapped my shaft on my covert 2.0 snap within a week and nike replaced it free and that was near the middle!


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## corrupthalo (May 26, 2014)

Basically I didn't notice anything wrong until I pulled the driver out on the tee box of the 6th hole. I noticed it was "wobbly" and on further inspection it was cracked. Looking closer at it and it basically came apart.

I can't take a picture of the club as it's away to Taylormade now according to AG but they think it's a waste of time. As a side point I beeline I was given a demo club when I bought it from AG as their was no plastic over the head etc. plus it has a slight bit of paint missing on the back of the head but I only noticed this after I got home and by then I couldn't be bothered to return it. I think it's a broad statement I make that because the shaft snapped in the middle then I must have abused it. The head and the parts of the shaft are in great condition.


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

Nobody is saying you abused the club, but for your warranty claim to be upheld it's likely that you will have to prove you didn't. By far the vast majority of shafts that break are usually the result of misuse - retailers know this fact and are usually reluctant to give on the spot replacements or refunds without inspection from the manufacturer. That could be difficult - but if no decision can be made either way how the damage occurred, the nod should go to the consumer and a replacement or refund is the right thing. Like I said, be prepared for lengthy negotiations.

EDIT - if it's an ex-demo club, then possibly normal warranty terms do not apply. Technically speaking, demo clubs are not normally allowed to be sold for this reason. Did you pay full retail price for the club or was it "reduced"?


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## corrupthalo (May 26, 2014)

Was only reduced as I price matched it to another retailer. Still cost Â£135 thou!
How am I supposed to prove that I didn't abuse the club?


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

corrupthalo said:



			Was only reduced as I price matched it to another retailer. Still cost Â£135 thou!
How am I supposed to prove that I didn't abuse the club?
		
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That's the hard part. From experience, the likely outcome will be that the manufacturer will find no fault with their product and will offer to provide a replacement (new shaft) at cost. Here's the link to the AG terms for warranty (ironically the RBZ is now down to Â£129 lol)[h=3]Purchases under 30 days old[/h]We will exchange the faulty item at our expense, simply email aftersales@americangolf.co.uk with your order number and a day time contact number so we can arrange an exchange delivery.
[h=3]For purchases over 30 days old but less than 12 months old[/h]american golf is an authorised stockist of all major brands in golf. This means that our warranties have the full manufacturer backing for your complete peace of mind. All new product lines are fully tested by our purchasing team for quality and performance. As a result, we confidently extend the Guarantee of all new clubs from 12 months to 2 years absolutely free of charge. Quality is assured!
Please send the item to the address below, along with a covering letter stating what the fault is, your order number and your daytime contact number. We will then contact the relevant manufacturer who will inspect the item and then, at their discretion, repair, replace or offer a like for like replacement, issue a voucher or they may, in certain cases, return the faulty item if they feel there is no manufacturing fault at blame.
In some cases where the manufacturer feels there is no manufacturing fault, they may offer to repair the faulty item at your cost. If you accept the offer you will be required to pay for the repair before we instruct the manufacturer to proceed.


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## corrupthalo (May 26, 2014)

Yeah seen it was reduced lol typical. Was actually considering getting the fairway wood to complete the set but this driver shaft snapping has made me re consider. 

Are Taylormade clubs a lower quality than say Ping or Callaway? Only be playing golf over a year but bitten hard by the bug. Down to 21.2 so not the greatest player in the world


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

Nothing wrong with TM clubs at all - I would say their quality is on par with the other major brands.


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## Ethan (May 26, 2014)

nemicu said:



			Nothing wrong with TM clubs at all - I would say their quality is on par with the other major brands.
		
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Their 'made for' shafts are not on a par with better quality 'made for' or aftermarket shafts used by other OEMs.


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## DAVEYBOY (May 26, 2014)

I'd say the shaft quality and possibly the build quality overall isn't as good as many other brands... Pick up a new Ping driver and you will probably be able to see and feel the difference in quality. My mate had Burner 2.0 irons with graphite shafts and 2 of them cracked and had to be replaced by TM.


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## nemicu (May 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Their 'made for' shafts are not on a par with better quality 'made for' or aftermarket shafts used by other OEMs.
		
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I would say thats a matter of opinion rather than fact. I'm not a huge fan of TM products, but the chances are their "made for" shafts are made at the exact same plant as other OEM's. Their tendency to make longer than normal shafts at lighter weights to uphold their distance claims also has the knock-on effect of having shafts that are more vulnerable to damage.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Their 'made for' shafts are not on a par with better quality 'made for' or aftermarket shafts used by other OEMs.
		
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I agree with that in terms of the R1 and R11S and RBZ Stg2 but have found the R11 ,SLDR shaft to be very good - i guess with shafts its all personal


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## drdel (May 26, 2014)

nemicu said:



			Not quite as cut and dried as that I'm afraid. The consumer has to prove that the failure occurred in normal use. In over 30 years, I've yet to see a graphite shaft break in half in the middle under normal use. AG are well within their rights to be suspicious of how the breakage occurred, just as the consumer is well within their rights to ask TM to inspect the club for appraisal to pursue any warranty claim. In other words, you need substantial proof - not "you do not have to prove anything" as you implied.
		
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I stand my statement - it is not possible for a consumer to prove technical factors hence consumer law is written the way it is.  Do not back down as the retailer cannot take away these righs


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## Ethan (May 26, 2014)

nemicu said:



			I would say thats a matter of opinion rather than fact. I'm not a huge fan of TM products, but the chances are their "made for" shafts are made at the exact same plant as other OEM's. Their tendency to make longer than normal shafts at lighter weights to uphold their distance claims also has the knock-on effect of having shafts that are more vulnerable to damage.
		
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The TM made for shafts are made for a very low price, and there is video on youtube showing a tear down of such shafts which shows the quality of construction reflect the budget. They are particularly vulnerable to damage when pulled, compared to aftermarket shafts. 

But if they are lighter and longer and break more easily for that reason, then whats the difference? A broken shaft is a broken shaft.


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## palindromicbob (May 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			The TM made for shafts are made for a very low price, and there is video on youtube showing a tear down of such shafts which shows the quality of construction reflect the budget. They are particularly vulnerable to damage when pulled, compared to aftermarket shafts. 

But if they are lighter and longer and break more easily for that reason, then whats the difference? A broken shaft is a broken shaft.
		
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_xAQ3mjHiI


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## Ethan (May 27, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_xAQ3mjHiI

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Thanks Bob. Of course this only stands to reason. Some of the made for shafts are made to a laughably low cost (<$10) and while they may be adequate for the average golfer, there is no way they are made to the same standards as higher price aftermarket shafts. These shafts are essentially knock offs branded to look like something decent, and they have different playing characteristics as well. Then Mr Average switches to a club with the aftermarket shaft not knowing it is different and now can't hit it. 

The problem for the punter is distinguishing between different brands. TM are well known for using poor quality 'made for' sgafts, whereas Mizuno are well known for using high quality components, including their own branded shafts. Ping TFC shafts are also known to be pretty good too. Other brands are somewhere in between.


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## nemicu (May 27, 2014)

Oh please - if you think crushing a shaft in a vice is a subjective test of its integrity, then you must be the kind of golfer who thinks a Â£300 shaft will outperform a Â£30 shaft. If you stuck a high price aftermarket shaft in a vice and crushed it down, the same failure would occur. It's also worth noting that putting a shaft in a vice is not considered normal use and invalidates any warranty. Any more gems of wisdom on YouTube? Spine aligning with a spirit level maybe?


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## Ethan (May 27, 2014)

nemicu said:



			Oh please - if you think crushing a shaft in a vice is a subjective test of its integrity, then you must be the kind of golfer who thinks a Â£300 shaft will outperform a Â£30 shaft. If you stuck a high price aftermarket shaft in a vice and crushed it down, the same failure would occur. It's also worth noting that putting a shaft in a vice is not considered normal use and invalidates any warranty. Any more gems of wisdom on YouTube? Spine aligning with a spirit level maybe?
		
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Perhaps not but it shows differences in manufacturing quality. 

You are the guy that thinks that stuff (allegedly) made in the same factory must be of the same quality. So I won't take any lectures from you.

As a general rule, Â£300 shafts ARE better quality. They may or may not be more suitable or perform better.


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## nemicu (May 27, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Perhaps not but it shows differences in manufacturing quality. 

You are the guy that thinks that stuff (allegedly) made in the same factory must be of the same quality. So I won't take any lectures from you.

As a general rule, Â£300 shafts ARE better quality. They may or may not be more suitable or perform better.
		
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No lectures from me - just common sense. If you refer to the video in question posted on YouTube, you will see plenty of schoolboy errors. First off, look at the shafts - they're not even remotely similar for comparison. The alleged inferior shaft is probably an ultralight with very thin walls which is easily broken - even for an aftermarket shaft. The alleged superior shaft looks like an Aldila NV (hardly mega bucks) which could easily be a 105 and be 3 times thicker.
Secondly, you don't need huge vice pressure to pull a shaft - because the shaft is tapered from tip to butt, it's impossible for the shaft to be pulled in the same direction as the head, hence relatively low vice pressure is required (see most of the air vices used on tour vans)
Thirdly, he's an American wearing a white belt....
...funny how the most successful shafts on tour over the last 3 decades have been sub Â£50 shafts. Ben Curtis even won a tour event with a stock "made for" shaft.
If you want to discern the quality of a shaft by destroying it, it will be just as expensive either way.


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## Ethan (May 27, 2014)

nemicu said:



			No lectures from me - just common sense. If you refer to the video in question posted on YouTube, you will see plenty of schoolboy errors. First off, look at the shafts - they're not even remotely similar for comparison. The alleged inferior shaft is probably an ultralight with very thin walls which is easily broken - even for an aftermarket shaft. The alleged superior shaft looks like an Aldila NV (hardly mega bucks) which could easily be a 105 and be 3 times thicker.
Secondly, you don't need huge vice pressure to pull a shaft - because the shaft is tapered from tip to butt, it's impossible for the shaft to be pulled in the same direction as the head, hence relatively low vice pressure is required (see most of the air vices used on tour vans)
Thirdly, he's an American wearing a white belt....
...funny how the most successful shafts on tour over the last 3 decades have been sub Â£50 shafts. Ben Curtis even won a tour event with a stock "made for" shaft.
If you want to discern the quality of a shaft by destroying it, it will be just as expensive either way.
		
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Common sense is a much over rated commodity. If it applied, it would suggest that shafts made for less than $10 can't be up to much.
But nobody is saying that every expensive shaft is great and every cheap shaft is rubbish. Â£50 is not expensive but it isn't dirt price cheap knockoff price either, at which you can buy, amongst others, Graf PL Red, Graf Blue and UST V2 shafts. All of these shafts probably cost a bit more when they were first released though. 

I said above that the quality of made for shafts varies between manufacturers. You appear to agree, having cited Ben Curtis who is a Titleist staffer. Titleist made for shafts have been pretty decent in recent years, as have Mizuno, Ping and a few others. Please feel free to cite a Taylor Made staffer, and God knows there are plenty of them, who has won with a stock retail shaft. Most of them don't even use stock retail wood or irons heads, let alone shafts.


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## nemicu (May 27, 2014)

I think you missed my point. Regardless of the perceived quality of the shaft, or moreover how much (or little) TM pay to have them churned out and fitted to clubs - they are not designed to fail in the normal course of play. TM understand marketing better than most and are well aware that their products need to meet the basic fit for purpose description under the sale of goods act. That means that under QC checks (and not forgetting AG's additional 2 year guarantee) they are designed to remain intact under normal circumstances. The quality and price which you seem to cite as the benchmark of integrity has nothing to do with it. If even 2% of it's stock driver shafts failed under normal use, then they would have a lot to answer for in consumer action and reputation. Yes, the margins are pretty slim, but they are not kept so thin that the structural integrity of the components are open to question - simply to cover themselves from 3rd party claims for damages resulting from failure of their equipment. Nothing that compromises the brand in this manner is left to chance.
That is why if I repeat myself also, stock shafts (regardless of perceived quality) seldom break in the normal course of play - and when or if they do, the OEM's are quite careful in assessing the failure. I repeat also that I'm not a huge fan of TM, but the basic product line is not a pile of crap or assembled with poor quality components. Hopefully, the OP will get a satisfactory result from the problem, but in my experience the chances of getting a no-cost resolution from breaking a shaft in half are pretty slim.


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## Hendy (May 27, 2014)

I say all tm stuff in American golf is not from the European tm.

They were the only company in UK selling non adjustable rbz stage 1s. Spoke with tm and they confirmed they never made a non adjustable version. So god knows were they get it from gave the serial number off it to the person in tm and they said was not coming up in the system, take what you want from it but....

Save to say I won't be using them for any gear any time soon

Edit: to add I am not saying there was no non adjustable rbzs made! Am saying tm Europe said they never made them.


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## hovis (May 27, 2014)

My good friend who is a club builder makes his customer sign a waiver when pulling tm shafts because he can't guarantee they wont brake.  He only uses the waiver for tm clubs.


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## nemicu (May 27, 2014)

hovis said:



			My good friend who is a club builder makes his customer sign a waiver when pulling tm shafts because he can't guarantee they wont brake.  He only uses the waiver for tm clubs.
		
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Must be one hell of a club builder - especially when you consider 50% of the range only need a screwdriver. If you're pulling a shaft anyway, then why bother if it breaks? Surely nobody would want to keep such an inferior shaft?


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## hovis (May 27, 2014)

nemicu said:



			Must be one hell of a club builder - especially when you consider 50% of the range only need a screwdriver. If you're pulling a shaft anyway, then why bother if it breaks? Surely nobody would want to keep such an inferior shaft?
		
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Most people who get the shaft pulled have a desire to keep it in one piece to sell on ebay.  Not all tm clubs in the woods and hybrid range are adjustable either.  He has a bin in his workshop full to the brim of broken tm stock shafts.


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## Ethan (May 27, 2014)

nemicu said:



			I think you missed my point. Regardless of the perceived quality of the shaft, or moreover how much (or little) TM pay to have them churned out and fitted to clubs - they are not designed to fail in the normal course of play. TM understand marketing better than most and are well aware that their products need to meet the basic fit for purpose description under the sale of goods act. That means that under QC checks (and not forgetting AG's additional 2 year guarantee) they are designed to remain intact under normal circumstances. The quality and price which you seem to cite as the benchmark of integrity has nothing to do with it. If even 2% of it's stock driver shafts failed under normal use, then they would have a lot to answer for in consumer action and reputation. Yes, the margins are pretty slim, but they are not kept so thin that the structural integrity of the components are open to question - simply to cover themselves from 3rd party claims for damages resulting from failure of their equipment. Nothing that compromises the brand in this manner is left to chance.
That is why if I repeat myself also, stock shafts (regardless of perceived quality) seldom break in the normal course of play - and when or if they do, the OEM's are quite careful in assessing the failure. I repeat also that I'm not a huge fan of TM, but the basic product line is not a pile of crap or assembled with poor quality components. Hopefully, the OP will get a satisfactory result from the problem, but in my experience the chances of getting a no-cost resolution from breaking a shaft in half are pretty slim.
		
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I am sure they don't design - them - to fail as such. I am also pretty sure that QC checks at the factory are pretty minimal. If iPhones and laptops are not fully QC checked (and they aren't) then I doubt that these shafts are either. 

Nevertheless, there is a range of quality in all components, including shafts, and these are towards the dodgy end of that spectrum. With the product cycles spinning as fast at TM moves them, many of these may be with a second owner when failure occurs, and that person has probably bought it pretty cheap and will just junk it. 

In any case, the OP's legal dispute is not with TM but with AG. AG may choose to enter a dispute with TM if they wish. Equally TM could choose to intervene and replace the club and that would be fine too.

If the OP took a small claims court case the issue would come down to the question of whether his account of not banging the club was reasonably credible. TM may be correct that 90% (say) of people who break a club by banging it on the ground get a mid shaft break. That doesn't mean that a mid shaft break is 90% likely due to a bang on the ground, though.


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## nemicu (May 27, 2014)

Correct. 90%+ of shaft failures are down to misuse. Be it banging on the ground, snapping it over a knee, lobbing it in half with a sand wedge, leaning on it, jamming it in a car door, or otherwise treating it in a careless manner. The OP's dispute is indeed with the point of sale, but in any case AG will simply go with whatever TM says.


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## Foxholer (May 27, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I am sure they don't design - them - to fail as such. I am also pretty sure that QC checks at the factory are pretty minimal. If iPhones and laptops are not fully QC checked (and they aren't) then I doubt that these shafts are either. 

Nevertheless, there is a range of quality in all components, including shafts, and these are towards the dodgy end of that spectrum. With the product cycles spinning as fast at TM moves them, many of these may be with a second owner when failure occurs, and that person has probably bought it pretty cheap and will just junk it.
		
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Just remember that there is a difference between quality of the product and quality of the manufacturing process. I'd venture to suggest that the manufacturing tolerances requires to produce these lower quality shafts are actually tighter - therefore higher quality - than the 'real deal' ones.

Same applies to other products. Tesco flimsy bags are actually made with tighter manufacturing tolerances, therefore to higher quality, than every item, except chips, in a Rolls Royce!


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## corrupthalo (May 27, 2014)

Just an update to the saga. Played golf this evening and used my 3 wood to tee off and actually played quite well and finished with 35 points. While I was playing I had a missed call and voicemail from AG. Basically they have replaced the shaft of my driver in store and it's ready to pick up. 

Have to give credit where it's due and thanks to AG for replacing it. Can't help but think they have looked at my spend instore and thought better to give me a shaft than lose the custom. To be honest I don't care why they replaced just happy they have. Let's just hope this shaft fares better than the previous one. 

Thanks all


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## palindromicbob (May 27, 2014)

corrupthalo said:



			Just an update to the saga. Played golf this evening and used my 3 wood to tee off and actually played quite well and finished with 35 points. While I was playing I had a missed call and voicemail from AG. Basically they have replaced the shaft of my driver in store and it's ready to pick up. 

Have to give credit where it's due and thanks to AG for replacing it. Can't help but think they have looked at my spend instore and thought better to give me a shaft than lose the custom. To be honest I don't care why they replaced just happy they have. Let's just hope this shaft fares better than the previous one. 

Thanks all
		
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Good result then. Don't forget the bubble wrap from now on


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## Ethan (May 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Just remember that there is a difference between quality of the product and quality of the manufacturing process. I'd venture to suggest that the manufacturing tolerances requires to produce these lower quality shafts are actually tighter - therefore higher quality - than the 'real deal' ones.

Same applies to other products. Tesco flimsy bags are actually made with tighter manufacturing tolerances, therefore to higher quality, than every item, except chips, in a Rolls Royce!
		
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But manufacturing tolerances are not necessarily correlated with quality. You could measure out buckets of dung to the nearest +/- 0.1g rather than =/- 10g, but it is still dung.


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## Foxholer (May 28, 2014)

Ethan said:



			But manufacturing tolerances are not necessarily correlated with quality. You could measure out buckets of dung to the nearest +/- 0.1g rather than =/- 10g, but it is still dung.
		
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We are actually pretty much saying the same thing!

Just with alternative targets for what the 'quality' refers to (process or product) - and perhaps why.

Colin Chapman - Lotus creator - had an interesting approach to 'quality' (though it wasn't identified as such back then) in his obsession with reducing weight. Summarised as - If a part didn't break it was too heavy!

Great to see the OP got a result! Props to AG and TM for doing the 'right' thing - for whatever reason!


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