# Reading Putts.



## seochris (Mar 21, 2016)

How do most of you read putts?

I was out yesterday and had real difficulty reading some putts?  Some just broke the complete opposite of what I thought it would?

Do you read them from both behind and in front or just behind? How do you make the decision on which way it will brake.  I went in front of some putts yesterday and it looked like it was going to break the other way from when I read it from behind. 

i need some help....maybe I need to go to spec-savers.....


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2016)

Aimpoint. All you'll ever need to know :mmm::rofl::thup:


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## seochris (Mar 21, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Aimpoint. All you'll ever need to know :mmm::rofl::thup:
		
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Is that some kind of phone app?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2016)

http://www.jamiedonaldson.co.uk/aimpointclinics.html


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## HDID Kenny (Mar 21, 2016)

seochris said:



			How do most of you read putts?

I was out yesterday and had real difficulty reading some putts?  Some just broke the complete opposite of what I thought it would?

Do you read them from both behind and in front or just behind? How do you make the decision on which way it will brake.  I went in front of some putts yesterday and it looked like it was going to break the other way from when I read it from behind. 

i need some help....maybe I need to go to spec-savers.....

Click to expand...

It's one of those things that I don't believe can be taught, you either see a break naturally or you don't, if you don't see breaks combined with poor feel it's a tough game. Practice helps, try various length putts from various angles tell yourself how you see each putt reacting and try to understand how the ball actually reacted, once you start getting it right you should become more confident. :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2016)

Guesswork mainly - but just judge the pace from the first green and then just feel the line mainly


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 21, 2016)

It's an interesting topic. For me it is about visualisation based on experience. Some greens are more difficult to read than others, with subtle or multiple breaks . Despite playing my home course week in week out for 30 years there are still some putts I can't read. Sometimes I just "see" the line. Other times I have no idea.


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2016)

Dave Stockton says to read from the low side first, looking across the line from ball to hole, from behind the ball and focus on the final third, which has the greatest influence as the ball moves more when losing speed. Never read from the high side. More break rather than less, as a general rule. 

Best way to learn is simply to practice. Go to a practice green, decide what you think is the aim point, the point equidistant from the hole you aim at - 6 inches left, a foot right etc, put a tee peg there, then putt it, see how the putt does, correct your aim and move the tee, try again etc until you begin to tune in to the break.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 21, 2016)

First look at the land around the green, and obvious turn?

Then from the side and back is enough. Critical putts read from both ends.

I just then hit it straight to the point where it turns and let gravity do the rest.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 21, 2016)

I use my eyes then I putt the ball.

Seems to be working alrightish. :thup:


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## Ross61 (Mar 21, 2016)

Look at the line from a reasonable distance first to get a idea of the slope, if any, of the green. When you are only a couple of yards behind the ball you can see slopes in relation to the green but can forget the green is on a slope anyway.
 As someone else said I don't think finer judgement/touch is teachable.
once I've decided on my line I get mental picture of the ball travelling along the line and turning into the hole (unless it is dead straight of course). Then I let my subconscious move my arms and putt. If I have thoughts about how hard to hit it whizzing around my head when over the ball I invariably make a pigs ear of it!


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## virtuocity (Mar 21, 2016)

HDID Kenny said:



			It's one of those things that I don't believe can be taught, you either see a break naturally or you don't
		
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This is incorrect.  The brain can read breaks in terrain- this is an inherent skill that we naturally improve upon over time.


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## ruff-driver (Mar 21, 2016)

How many of us aim at the apex of the break?
I know i did until i watched this

quite an eye opener

[video=youtube;7e8UgT6LrW4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8UgT6LrW4[/video]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

I just look from behind - go back maybe 10ft and crouch down low.  I look at it as straight putt then when (usually) I see it isn't choose a spot on the green maybe halfway to the hole for the break I see, and move or tilt body to look straight that point and visualise the putt breaking off that line. I repeat until I'm sorted on the point on the green and my line. I don't often get it very wrong so I guess it must just be experience.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 21, 2016)

ruff-driver said:



			How many of us aim at the apex of the break?
		
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I know I do for long putts, I don't have control of the ball after the point it first turns.


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## virtuocity (Mar 21, 2016)

The brain doesn't work well looking from behind the ball.  

Try this:




1.  Stand as per the illustration above, with the hole on the left and the ball on the right, far enough away to make a triangle.  Not an exact science, and beware of stepping on your FC's line.

2.  Face the middle of the line between the hole in the ball.  FOCUS.

3.  Standing, look at the hole.  Then, look at the ball.  Then, look at the hole.  Then, STARE at the ball.

4.  Staring at the ball, walk up to it and address it with your putter.

5.  Trust it.  Hole the putt.

By doing this from the side, your eyes will scan the break both back and forward from the ball to the hole.  Your unconscious brain is smarter than your conscious thought processes.  In the same way that you don't have to think hard about changing your stride when marching down a hill, your brain, by looking at "hole, ball, hole, ball" will do all of the maths for you.

Try it out on your practice green next time you get 5 minutes.  If you trust it, it will help.  If you don't, then you've only wasted 5 minutes.


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## Spear-Chucker (Mar 21, 2016)

I find it's largely experience of hitting 000's of putts. I'll look at the lie of the surrounding land a little but invariably just stand behind the putt to read it these days. I will 'stalk around it' a bit if I'm unsure and want more information.

It's a personal process to a degree but experience and trust is essential.


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## Region3 (Mar 21, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			The brain doesn't work well looking from behind the ball.  

Try this:

View attachment 18830


1.  Stand as per the illustration above, with the hole on the left and the ball on the right, far enough away to make a triangle.  Not an exact science, and beware of stepping on your FC's line.

2.  Face the middle of the line between the hole in the ball.  FOCUS.

3.  Standing, look at the hole.  Then, look at the ball.  Then, look at the hole.  Then, STARE at the ball.

4.  Staring at the ball, walk up to it and address it with your putter.

5.  Trust it.  Hole the putt.

By doing this from the side, your eyes will scan the break both back and forward from the ball to the hole.  Your unconscious brain is smarter than your conscious thought processes.  In the same way that you don't have to think hard about changing your stride when marching down a hill, your brain, by looking at "hole, ball, hole, ball" will do all of the maths for you.

Try it out on your practice green next time you get 5 minutes.  If you trust it, it will help.  If you don't, then you've only wasted 5 minutes.
		
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I like the idea of this but surely setting up to the ball is a conscious thing. You have to choose where to line yourself up to, so how do you decide where to aim?

Or are you saying just set up to the ball without thinking and you will point yourself and the putter in the right direction?


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## virtuocity (Mar 21, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Or are you saying just set up to the ball without thinking and you will point yourself and the putter in the right direction?
		
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Exactly.  Sounds like something the Flat Earth Society will come up with, but I've been holing some ridiculous putts over the past 6 months.

Trust is the key.  You'll line up your putter thinking "No way- I'm going to go 6 foot wide here".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			Exactly.  Sounds like something the Flat Earth Society will come up with, but I've been holing some ridiculous putts over the past 6 months.

Trust is the key.  You'll line up your putter thinking "No way- I'm going to go 6 foot wide here".
		
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Not sure I exactly get how you make this work from the side - but in some ways I am similar.  Once I've done my quick bit of looking for a break I take stance and address the ball - and I then really focus hard on my ball and slowly look hole 'seeing' the putt and then back focussing on the ball and then stroke.  One thing I certainly don't do is faff about positioning my ball or have any alignment marks to help.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 21, 2016)

totally agree, can't just read down the line. Need to quickly do a side view.

Can also apply the skills to chips.


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## Slab (Mar 21, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			The brain doesn't work well looking from behind the ball.  

Try this:

View attachment 18830


1.  Stand as per the illustration above, with the hole on the left and the ball on the right, far enough away to make a triangle.  Not an exact science, and beware of stepping on your FC's line.

2.  Face the middle of the line between the hole in the ball.  FOCUS.

3.  Standing, look at the hole.  Then, look at the ball.  Then, look at the hole.  Then, STARE at the ball.

4.  Staring at the ball, walk up to it and address it with your putter.

5.  Trust it.  Hole the putt.

By doing this from the side, your eyes will scan the break both back and forward from the ball to the hole.  Your unconscious brain is smarter than your conscious thought processes.  In the same way that you don't have to think hard about changing your stride when marching down a hill, your brain, by looking at "hole, ball, hole, ball" will do all of the maths for you.

Try it out on your practice green next time you get 5 minutes.  If you trust it, it will help.  If you don't, then you've only wasted 5 minutes.
		
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I'm sure there's something worth trying here but need a little help

Facing the line you cant just write the word 'focus' Focus on what? A visual focus on the grass between ball & hole or a mental focus on.... what? 

Help


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 21, 2016)

After looking from the low side & behind the ball I like to "see" the whole travel of the ball over the length of the putt in my mind's eye.  I then,  without delay hit the ball along the starting line.  On a good day I can get every medium length putt to pass within an inch of the hole if it doesn't go in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2016)

I only really look at the line behind the ball - that seems enough for me


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## virtuocity (Mar 21, 2016)

Slab said:



			I'm sure there's something worth trying here but need a little help

Facing the line you cant just write the word 'focus' Focus on what? A visual focus on the grass between ball & hole or a mental focus on.... what? 

Help 

Click to expand...

Focus Daniel-san.  That means, stop yapping to your partners.  Get the post-game bacon roll out of your head.  Don't think about the last shot.  Focus.

I struggle with this, and although I look like a fool (no change there), I start rapidly pressing my left thumb and index finger together as I do the 'hole, ball, hole, ball' routine.


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## snell (Mar 21, 2016)

Silly question....but what does the low side mean??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

snell said:



			Silly question....but what does the low side mean??
		
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Stating the obvious it's the (generally) opposite side of the hole to the high side - the high side being where you putt down a slope to the hole.  Pros always aim on the high side as gravity can always help a slight miss read or miss hit.  Also missing on the high side - when your ball then rolls downhill to a halt you'll generally still be closer to the hole than if you miss on the low side


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## snell (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Stating the obvious it's the (generally) opposite side of the hole to the high side - the high side being where you putt down a slope to the hole.  Pros always aim on the high side as gravity can always help a slight miss read or miss hit.  Also missing on the high side - when your ball then rolls downhill to a halt you'll generally still be closer to the hole than if you miss on the low side
		
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Nice one cheers.

Pretty self explanatory....almost embarrassing that I didn't know this


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

snell said:



			Nice one cheers.

Pretty self explanatory....almost embarrassing that I didn't know this 

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Amateurs (like us) tend to miss more often on the low side as for some reason we struggle to give the ball enough borrow on the high side and enough oomph to keep it on that line.


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## Capella (Mar 21, 2016)

I start reading the putt or more the green in general as I approach it, because I find it easier to see the general slope of the green from further away. Then I read the putt from about one meter behind the ball. For long putts I focus more on the speed than on the line. I very rarely look at the putt from the other side of the hole, because I find that it confuses me more than it helps.


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## the_coach (Mar 21, 2016)

seochris said:



			How do most of you read putts?

I was out yesterday and had real difficulty reading some putts?  Some  just broke the complete opposite of what I thought it would?

Do you read them from both behind and in front or just behind? How do  you make the decision on which way it will brake.  I went in front of  some putts yesterday and it looked like it was going to break the other  way from when I read it from behind. 

i need some help....maybe I need to go to spec-savers.....

Click to expand...

would look to the lie of the green on the approach to the green  paying attention to the general topography and build that into a  conscious method so the brain is switched back on long before the bag  put down and the feet are on the green that often times starts to point  things in the right direction in terms of slopes that will influence  ball roll

would then read the putt from 6' behind the line  standing still you often times get a sense of slope through the feet  -folks been doing this long time before 'aimpoint' (don't have any  particular issue with aimpoint)

should get a general sense  through topography, looking from 6' behind (initially if read right at  the ball from behind it can skew perspective some) which would be  low-side and would always (longer putts) walk 6' (general approximation)  down from the mliddle of the putt (ball to hole) on the low-side -  important as it gives a greater sense of true distance as well as the  line of the putt you gotta read pace - *pace is key to reading the line *_(key to consistent pace is stroke tempo + technique)_
(is  the putt flat, uphill, downhill, along with weather and ground  condition, grass length all other key considerations to pace, break,  line) usually always some degree of slope/tilt for drainage

downhill putts break a bunch more than uphill putts - down to physics of ball roll

then  with this 'read information' collected would  'focus in' on line at the  ball as it gets marked/cleaned replaced (lined up with ball marking  line if they used) - _by picking a spot some 3,4 to 6" in front of  the ball on line to the hole or on line to the aim point if a breaking  putt -- so there's a real clear idea of the definite start direction of  the putts roll_

a good bunch of 'ams' miss on the low-side down to under-reading the so called 'apex' break point - _'true' break line always higher than the 'apex point' the putt first 'appears' to start to break_ 

so  a critical key to understanding this 'fall line' {where (direction)  water would flow across the slope & incline along the length of a  putt}
again key to this is understanding that due to gravity (on anything other than a flat/straight putt) _a ball will start to 'break' virtually as soon as it leaves the putter face_ 

so  if folks have started the direction of the putt at the perceived break  'apex' point the ball will always arrive at the apex lower down (so  low-side miss) * you always need to start the aim line direction of the putt higher than the 'putts apex'*  - could give a whole bunch of figures as to why this is true but would  all get a bunch even more complicated ..................... (any folks  really interested in research into this would recommend buying and  reading ('every shot counts' by Mark Broadie)

so taking a leap  and accepting the above as being true - a good stat to keep say around  20' is misses on high-side to low-side if finding the miss is  significantly more over 50% on one side or the other (just some ways  under 50% low-side 'miss' tour pro/elite am is around normal whereas  normal miss for 'club am index player' is around 70%)
so knowing where folks sit if this is tracked gives a good area of improvement possibility 

.........then there's the mental side of not changing 'higher initial aim point' mid stroke ......


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## 3565 (Mar 21, 2016)

I use Aimpoint Express. Tells me what I need to know.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2016)

seochris said:



			How do most of you read putts?

I was out yesterday and had real difficulty reading some putts?  Some just broke the complete opposite of what I thought it would?

Do you read them from both behind and in front or just behind? How do you make the decision on which way it will brake.  I went in front of some putts yesterday and it looked like it was going to break the other way from when I read it from behind. 

i need some help....maybe I need to go to spec-savers.....

Click to expand...

If you are first to putt, the pressure sometimes is on you to rush. don't. Again how do you spend your time on the green. The green is the focal point of four players who were talking rubbish on the tee and then 10 mins later on the green. If you are last, watch how the putts roll, by that I mean do they get going or struggle bounce and fart all the way and drop short.

for me first and foremost, it is the practise green. And I ALWAYS finish up with half a dozen three foot putts. Why? Where ever I putt from I try to put it in the dustbin lid area. So I don't want to miss a dustbin lidder and three putt.

I always always look sideways on at a putt because our green keeper puts the pins near the top of a down slope so if you put the ball past the hole with pace your dustbin lid become a dustbin Lorry.

They say that length is more important than line ( eg you can be three foot short but not three foot wide) me I am not to sure about that.

putting though for me is not like any of the other strokes you will play it is just something everyone does differently. It is the only aspect of my game I am totally happy with. Without opening a can of worms. A lot of that is to do with my putter.
She is a laydee.


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## HDID Kenny (Mar 21, 2016)

Quick look on approach to putt may look again if FC's are putting 1st, pick my line from behind 1 practice swing for pace and go, works for me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2016)

3565 said:



			I use Aimpoint Express. Tells me what I need to know.
		
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Yep :thup::cheers:


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## Simbo (Mar 21, 2016)

I generally just look from behind the ball, although if it's a severe sloping green I'll probably have a look from the low side of the hole 50% of the distance between the ball and the hole. I also have a good look at the green as I'm walking up to it.
I also find looking from the other side of the hole can give me confusing reads, the complete opposite of what I see from behind the ball. Then it becomes a stand up and hope for the best putt.


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## Robobum (Mar 21, 2016)

35 separate posts all saying exactly the same thing.

its all just guesswork


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2016)

Robobum said:



			35 separate posts all saying exactly the same thing.

its all just guesswork

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There are varying levels of guessing though


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## Robobum (Mar 21, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			There are varying levels of guessing though
		
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Indeed Homer

Some guesswork is more expensive than others too


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Indeed Homer

Some guesswork is more expensive than others too
		
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And some would argue it's money well spent to have that higher level of guesswork. Or indeed actually think the method they've learnt works. All about opinions as always


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## Robobum (Mar 21, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And some would argue it's money well spent to have that higher level of guesswork. Or indeed actually think the method they've learnt works. All about opinions as always
		
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Marvellous. I'm sure you'll see the benefits soon!!


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## 3565 (Mar 21, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			There are varying levels of guessing though
		
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I know which 'guesswork':rofl:i prefer


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2016)

There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
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I have a small bag of chicken bones and rabbit poo which I hang around my neck before teeing off. Are you saying I was ripped off?


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## 3565 (Mar 21, 2016)

Where's my fishing rod............. :rofl:


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And some would argue it's money well spent to have that higher level of guesswork. Or indeed actually think the method they've learnt works. All about opinions as always
		
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Do you need to do the course Homer or is the DVD worth it ?


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## richart (Mar 21, 2016)

I don't bother spending much time trying to read greens, as I have found I can't hit putts on the line I have chosen anyway. I did hole a nice 20 foot birdie putt at the weekend after I pulled the putt at least six inches left of where I was aiming. :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I have a small bag of chicken bones and rabbit poo which I hang around my neck before teeing off. Are you saying I was ripped off?
		
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Just stick it on eBay with a description of Aimpoint and somebody will buy it off you :thup:


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

richart said:



			I don't bother spending much time trying to read greens, as I have found I can't hit putts on the line I have chosen anyway. I did hole a nice 20 foot birdie putt at the weekend after I pulled the putt at least six inches left of where I was aiming. :thup:
		
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Ah, you have putty-pullitis! I find that wearing a stiletto on my left foot cured this.


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## 3565 (Mar 21, 2016)

Ooh the float has bobbed under the water.....


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## richart (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I find that wearing a stiletto on my left foot cured this.
		
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 Not sure the greenkeeper will be happy, but I am game to try anything. You wouldn't be kidding me, and it is really the right foot it should be worn on ?


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

richart said:



			Not sure the greenkeeper will be happy, but I am game to try anything. You wouldn't be kidding me, and it is really the right foot it should be worn on ?
		
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Best start off with both on, then alternate at each green to find out which best suits your limp


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Do you need to do the course Homer or is the DVD worth it ?
		
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To be honest the DVD is crap and certainly not worth whatever they are charging but it does give you the tools to use Aimpoint express. Personally, I feel happier having spent time with Jamie Donaldson the European instructor in a very small class as I could ask questions and pick his brains on various things

Aimpoint divides opinion every time but makes me laugh that it's always those that have never tried it and never will that are always so vocal on it being rubbish and a waste of time. Bet they said the same when metal drivers came in or we switched to the 1.68 ball


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To be honest the DVD is crap and certainly not worth whatever they are charging but it does give you the tools to use Aimpoint express. Personally, I feel happier having spent time with Jamie Donaldson the European instructor in a very small class as I could ask questions and pick his brains on various things

Aimpoint divides opinion every time but makes me laugh that it's always those that have never tried it and never will that are always so vocal on it being rubbish and a waste of time. Bet they said the same when metal drivers came in or we switched to the 1.68 ball
		
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I didn't rubbish it. I just said that it is still guesswork.

Unless you can tell me it's not........?


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2016)

Robobum said:



			35 separate posts all saying exactly the same thing.

its all just guesswork

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I use "The Force"...
All the guesswork takes out it does....


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Robobum said:



			I didn't rubbish it. I just said that it is still guesswork.

Unless you can tell me it's not........?
		
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Suggest you look for Jamie Donaldson on google and put your questions to him. It's based on scientific fact but the bottom line is simple and I and others have discussed this and the science behind it before and it always descends into tit for tat arguments so ask the expert if you really are interested in the facts behind it. Not prepared to go through all the silliness and people looking for cheap jibes (not directed at you!) again

Whether you think it works or not is personal and I'm not going to push my view as definitive although I think it's more than guesswork


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## spongebob59 (Mar 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Do you need to do the course Homer or is the DVD worth it ?
		
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You need to do the course, unless you have a green near your tv &#128513;


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## patricks148 (Mar 22, 2016)

our greens tend to have a more subtle break so you need to look from all sides, but i only tend to do this if in a comp. bounce games just pick a spot i think its would break from and hit it to that.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Suggest you look for Jamie Donaldson on google and put your questions to him. It's based on scientific fact but the bottom line is simple and I and others have discussed this and the science behind it before and it always descends into tit for tat arguments so ask the expert if you really are interested in the facts behind it. Not prepared to go through all the silliness and people looking for cheap jibes (not directed at you!) again

Whether you think it works or not is personal and I'm not going to push my view as definitive although I think it's more than guesswork
		
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Would you recommend just doing the Aimpoint Express or is it necessary to do other courses to get the full info?


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2016)

Pay particular attention to the ground/slopes around the hole as the ball will turn more as it slows down.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Would you recommend just doing the Aimpoint Express or is it necessary to do other courses to get the full info?
		
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Aimpoint express. It's made using the chart to do the read redundant


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Aimpoint express. It's made using the chart to do the read redundant
		
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Thanks!


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## seochris (Mar 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I have a small bag of chicken bones and rabbit poo which I hang around my neck before teeing off. Are you saying I was ripped off?
		
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:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Thanks!
		
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Is that to help cut down the 5 putts  

In fairness you had the line right on every putt


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Someone asked about the science... theres a video here that gives a basic insight from Mark Sweeney (aimpoint founder)

http://jamiedonaldson.co.uk/aimpointcoaching.html


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Someone asked about the science... theres a video here that gives a basic insight from Mark Sweeney (aimpoint founder)

http://jamiedonaldson.co.uk/aimpointcoaching.html

Click to expand...

Also when you have Harold Swash putting school of excellence who advocate and host clinics at Formby Hall resort on Aimpoint Express, there must be something more then just good old simple guesswork?


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that to help cut down the 5 putts  

In fairness you had the line right on every putt
		
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I will be giving an hour masterclass at Woburn - Â£150 pp


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			Also when you have Harold Swash putting school of excellence who advocate and host clinics at Formby Hall resort on Aimpoint Express, there must be something more then just good old simple guesswork?
		
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How do you arrive at the slope %?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			Also when you have Harold Swash putting school of excellence who advocate and host clinics at Formby Hall resort on Aimpoint Express, there must be something more then just good old simple guesswork?
		
Click to expand...

Do you not need to know the stimp reading of the green ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not need to know the stimp reading of the green ?
		
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Can be worked out readily in moments once you know the technique. The read's are adjustable based on speed of greens in the same way the chart had different graphs for different stimps


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can be worked out readily in moments once you know the technique. The read's are adjustable based on speed of greens in the same way the chart had different graphs for different stimps
		
Click to expand...

Guess #1


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm not getting involved, but people that haven't tried it have no place slating it.

It's brilliant, I'd argue my read is pretty much spot on on every single putt. Do I hole everything? No, as line is only one of three things that need to be correct, the other being pace and ability to start it on the correct line


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Guess #1
		
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Not even going to bother rising to the bait. You'll never do the course so you'll never know. End of


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I'm not getting involved, but people that haven't tried it have no place slating it.

It's brilliant, I'd argue my read is pretty much spot on on every single putt. Do I hole everything? No, as line is only one of three things that need to be correct, the other being pace and ability to start it on the correct line
		
Click to expand...

I'm not slating it. I've just said that it is still guesswork, elaborate guesswork.

I stand corrected if anyone can show otherwise


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

You learn it, and there are various ways of learning it, just like you learn to play shots, or swing changes. 

Im on Homer with this, there are naysayers about Aimpoint who have never and will never try it, which is fine by me, each to their own, just get an informed view before saying its guesswork.  I'm averaging 1.7 putts per hole, best been 1.5, I'm holing more putts over 12ft then I've ever done before. There are 1 or 2 others that have gone to a class and are using it and may answer your question, But I'm not getting into how I arrive at the slope % for you to give your already stock answer and get into a heated debate.


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
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Robobum said:



			I'm not slating it. I've just said that it is still guesswork, elaborate guesswork.

I stand corrected if anyone can show otherwise
		
Click to expand...

Absolutey agree it's guesswork, but it can be refined. Understanding what % feel like etc. 

It's sound silly but I have a spirit level that j work with on the putting green, and also a board where I can change the angles at home and get used to the feel. 

People will spend Â£50 an hour on 2 putting lessons so why is learning to read greens in this manner any different?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

I just asked how you judge the pace without knowing the stimp ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			You learn it, and there are various ways of learning it, just like you learn to play shots, or swing changes. 

Im on Homer with this, there are naysayers about Aimpoint who have never and will never try it, which is fine by me, each to their own, just get an informed view before saying its guesswork.  I'm averaging 1.7 putts per hole, best been 1.5, I'm holing more putts over 12ft then I've ever done before. There are 1 or 2 others that have gone to a class and are using it and may answer your question, But I'm not getting into how I arrive at the slope % for you to give your already stock answer and get into a heated debate.
		
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It's standard fair when Aimpoint is mentioned. Plenty of information on Jamie Donaldson's site and the link I put up. A few may take that away and see it for what it is, most will continue to slag it off and look for cheap digs and for a bite.


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			I just asked how you judge the pace without knowing the stimp ?
		
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All breaks are based on being 6-10inches behind the hole so just a quick practice before.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I just asked how you judge the pace without knowing the stimp ?
		
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As you would normally, the practice green.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

Ask in the pro shop. 
Use a stimp meter. 
PLG.
Or using your experience and knowledge


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			All breaks are based on being 6-10inches behind the hole so just a quick practice before.
		
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So a bit a guesswork :thup:


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			So a bit a guesswork :thup:
		
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I said a minute ago, pace is still required and admitted there is some guesswork. 

I use it religiously but anyone that said it takes guesswork out is delusional


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So a bit a guesswork :thup:
		
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Another naysayer. Who'd have thought it of LP? Have a look at the Jamie Donaldson website. It's not difficult. Plenty of introductory information


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I said a minute ago, pace is still required and admitted there is some guesswork. 

I use it religiously but anyone that said it takes guesswork out is delusional
		
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I don't think anyone was slating it mate - use whatever method suits you best and if it works then crack on 

I think the initial point was the whatever method people use will always have some element of guesswork in it .


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I said a minute ago, pace is still required and admitted there is some guesswork. 

I use it religiously but anyone that said it takes guesswork out is delusional
		
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You best tell Homer.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Robobum said:



			You best tell Homer.
		
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I'm happy with it. It works but of course why try it yourself when it's so easy to sit at a keyboard and mock. How come more and more top players are going to it and would they really put tournament purses and ranking points on something that doesn't work. End of discussion as we're back in the old pro and con argument done so many times before. The naysayers will never ever change or take their head out of the sand. No guesswork but don't let facts get in the way


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			I'm happy with it. It works but of course why try it yourself when it's so easy to sit at a keyboard and mock. How come more and more top players are going to it and would they really put tournament purses and ranking points on something that doesn't work. End of discussion as we're back in the old pro and con argument done so many times before. The naysayers will never ever change or take their head out of the sand. No guesswork but don't let facts get in the way
		
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Homer, as a massive advocate of aimpoint I'd say it's crazy to say there is no guesswork. Calculated yes, but know the amount of arm bend, % slope etc is all 'guessing' to some extent.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			Homer, as a massive advocate of aimpoint I'd say it's crazy to say there is no guesswork. Calculated yes, but know the amount of arm bend, % slope etc is all 'guessing' to some extent.
		
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I disagree to a degree and I think you'd find Jamie Donaldson and Mark Sweeney would disagree too. I think you can definitely learn what works correctly, especially on your home greens that will take guesswork away to a degree. The technique is proven. However that's your opinion, not one I share but one I respect


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## MendieGK (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			There is no black magic to reading greens, it's all basic common sense.
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree to a degree and I think you'd find Jamie Donaldson and Mark Sweeney would disagree too. I think you can definitely learn what works correctly, especially on your home greens that will take guesswork away to a degree. The technique is proven. However that's your opinion, not one I share but one I respect
		
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Of course they wouldn't agree it's there product


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			Of course they wouldn't agree it's there product
		
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But they wouldn't get take up from tournament pros if it didn't work. It's that simple. Why would they use something that didn't improve their green reading. I do accept that from doing the course and using the chart and doing the Express and doing the reads that there is a period where you are inaccurate as you get to grips with it. However as you learn to work out the percentage slope and the arm bend for the stimp on your home greens (or any other) then as with the chart, the reads improve and become more accurate


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## Qwerty (Mar 22, 2016)

A Question for the Aimpointers.. Do you feel you get less satisfaction from holing a putt using the method as opposed to using your original green reading instinct?


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			Homer, as a massive advocate of aimpoint I'd say it's crazy to say there is no guesswork. Calculated yes, but know the amount of arm bend, % slope etc is all 'guessing' to some extent.
		
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So practising on the green, If I get a stimp meter, which is the official way to get the pace of greens, get a reading of 9. Then on a 15ft right to left or left to right putt place an inclinometer half way and it reads 3%, get my PLG and use the stimp of 9 chart, turn it to 3 (either left or right pending which way it breaks) place the tee peg in line with the PLG's aim and at right angle to the hole, then extend my arm and start bending it towards me until my 3 fingers cover half the hole and touches the tee, and that arm bend would be a guess?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			So practising on the green, If I get a stimp meter, which is the official way to get the pace of greens, get a reading of 9. Then on a 15ft right to left or left to right putt place an inclinometer half way and it reads 3%, get my PLG and use the stimp of 9 chart, turn it to 3 (either left or right pending which way it breaks) place the tee peg in line with the PLG's aim and at right angle to the hole, then extend my arm and start bending it towards me until my 3 fingers cover half the hole and touches the tee, and that arm bend would be a guess?
		
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What if the practise green isn't the same pace as the greens on the course ?

That's a very regular occurence and you then don't have any gadgets to judge the pace ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			A Question for the Aimpointers.. Do you feel you get less satisfaction from holing a putt using the method as opposed to using your original green reading instinct?
		
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Is that a serious question  All about getting it in the hole as quickly as you can and if Aimpoint assists that then I'm happy. My putts per round has dropped from 33.16 in 2014 to 31.71 last year. I'm happy that my putting is going forward and I am making better reads and holing more putts.

Of course as I've said, there will be those that will have their interested piqued (and I've already had PM's) and will try it. Others will never try it. All fine if a little frustrating that the never wills write it off as bunkum at the drop of a hat. I think it works, my stats seem to back that up


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			A Question for the Aimpointers.. Do you feel you get less satisfaction from holing a putt using the method as opposed to using your original green reading instinct?
		
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Hell no, I can virtually tell as soon as the balls left I've holed it and has happened on many occasions and I've also watched players who I've shown a little bit about it that before the balls got anywhere near the hole I've said you've holed that one. It just reinforces that I won't go back to 'normal' reading and at the end of the day it's about holing putts isn't it?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My putts per round has dropped from 33.16 in 2014 to 31.71 last year. I'm happy that my putting is going forward and I am making better reads and holing more putts.
		
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But your handicap is going up? So maybe you are missing more greens and chipping on more, that will bring down anyones putts per round.

If you don't have the natural ability to read a green then by all means pay for a lesson (aimpoint, conventional or any other method) but I start by my original statement, reading greens is NOT difficult.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Is that a serious question  All about getting it in the hole as quickly as you can and if Aimpoint assists that then I'm happy. My putts per round has dropped from 33.16 in 2014 to 31.71 last year. I'm happy that my putting is going forward and I am making better reads and holing more putts.

Of course as I've said, there will be those that will have their interested piqued (and I've already had PM's) and will try it. Others will never try it. All fine if a little frustrating that the never wills write it off as bunkum at the drop of a hat. I think it works, my stats seem to back that up
		
Click to expand...

ive also had PM's from those who are interested about Aimpoint but don't want to ask the question on here cos of the certain handful (we know who they are) that come on to just ridicule it and Just to pick fault. It's a sorry state if those cant ask knowing that they may get attacked or the perverbial taken out of them on a forum that all play a game were supposed to enjoy.


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## Qwerty (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Is that a serious question  All about getting it in the hole as quickly as you can and if Aimpoint assists that then I'm happy. My putts per round has dropped from 33.16 in 2014 to 31.71 last year. I'm happy that my putting is going forward and I am making better reads and holing more putts.

Of course as I've said, there will be those that will have their interested piqued (and I've already had PM's) and will try it. Others will never try it. All fine if a little frustrating that the never wills write it off as bunkum at the drop of a hat. I think it works, my stats seem to back that up
		
Click to expand...


Of course its a serious question! I play the game for enjoyment and the satisfaction of striking the ball well and putting a score together on my own terms.

I honestly don't care whether it works or not.

Personally Using a chart/Method or whatever you want to call it would take something out of the game for me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Of course its a serious question! I play the game for enjoyment and the satisfaction of striking the ball well and putting a score together on my own terms.

I honestly don't care whether it works or not.

Personally Using a chart/Method or whatever you want to call it would take something out of the game for me.
		
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OK. Interesting point of view. Turn it around a tad, do you use any form of DMD?


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## pokerjoke (Mar 22, 2016)

I have watched Steve Buzza putt many times on course vlogs and even though he makes it look very tedious he does actually read the putt very well and most of the times it really comes down to not getting the pace right.
However if its on line and you can get it close I suppose the 2nd putt would be easier.

I can read greens well however my pace is sometimes off.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			OK. Interesting point of view. Turn it around a tad, do you use any form of DMD?
		
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Also How about the latest ball technology, or club technology..........


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			ive also had PM's from those who are interested about Aimpoint but don't want to ask the question on here cos of the certain handful (we know who they are) that come on to just ridicule it and Just to pick fault. It's a sorry state if those cant ask knowing that they may get attacked or the perverbial taken out of them on a forum that all play a game were supposed to enjoy.
		
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Not one single person has

Ridiculed anyone 
Picked faults 
Attacked anyone 
Or indeed taken any perverbial

Polite questions have been asked by a few people 

Who believe that "ANY" green reading method will involved a certain amount of guesswork - that's not picking on Aimpoint - that point is valid to any method. 

im not sure why there has been the need to be so defensive when no one is attacking anything ? 

Maybe people should just read the posts a bit more instead of jumping to conclusions


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I have watched Steve Buzza putt many times on course vlogs and even though he makes it look very tedious he does actually read the putt very well and most of the times it really comes down to not getting the pace right.
However if its on line and you can get it close I suppose the 2nd putt would be easier.

I can read greens well however my pace is sometimes off.
		
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It isn't a magic wand and I've said many times before, if you make a fantastic read but can't start a ball on the correct line or at a good pace it doesn't matter if you Aimpoint, use astrology or dowsing rods. You won't make anything. Good reads also requires a good technique and the latter needs work


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not one single person has

Ridiculed anyone 
Picked faults 
Attacked anyone 
Or indeed taken any perverbial

Polite questions have been asked by a few people 

Who believe that "ANY" green reading method will involved a certain amount of guesswork - that's not picking on Aimpoint - that point is valid to any method. 

im not sure why there has been the need to be so defensive when no one is attacking anything ? 

Maybe people should just read the posts a bit more instead of jumping to conclusions
		
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Really! Then you must be blind and a bad memory! 

But interesting that you of all responded tho!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			Really! Then you must be blind and a bad memory! 

But interesting that you of all responded tho!
		
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Sorry but where in the thread is anyone being ridiculed ? Or indeed anything you have suggested


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			Really! Then you must be blind and a bad memory! 

But interesting that you of all responded tho!
		
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It's every Aimpoint thread. Only needs a quick search to look back and see


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I have watched Steve Buzza putt many times on course vlogs and even though he makes it look very tedious he does actually read the putt very well and most of the times it really comes down to not getting the pace right.
		
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Buzza's putting is so bad it helped me decide that Aimpoint isn't a form of cheating.


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## srixon 1 (Mar 22, 2016)

It's a natural thing. You can read greens or you can't, i don't think you can "learn" it. You then have to get the pace right too, some folks will die it in the hole with lots of break whilst others will ram it in taking some of the break out.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It's every Aimpoint thread. Only needs a quick search to look back and see
		
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Same protagonist every time Homer. 

If there's a thread that I'm not informed on or interested I don't go on it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			Same protagonist every time Homer. 

If there's a thread that I'm not informed on or interested I don't go on it.
		
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This thread is about reading greens not specific to Aimpoint -

The only people that are having issues with anything being said are you and Homer yet not one single person has slated Aimpoint in this thread.


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## Qwerty (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			OK. Interesting point of view. Turn it around a tad, do you use any form of DMD?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I use a rangefinder but I can live with getting a yardage which I could roughly pace out anyway given the time.
You could use any kind of Technology as an example to turn it around.

I just think that reading greens and making putts requires a lot of skill and judgement, its a large part of the Game which I get a lot of satisfaction from when I get it right, I wouldn't want that Satisfaction Diluted in any way.. Hence the initial question.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Yes, I use a rangefinder but I can live with getting a yardage which I could roughly pace out anyway given the time.
You could use any kind of Technology as an example to turn it around.

I just think that reading greens and making putts requires a lot of skill and judgement, its a large part of the Game which I get a lot of satisfaction from when I get it right, I wouldn't want that Satisfaction Diluted in any way.. Hence the initial question.
		
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I take your point. I happen to see it the other way and if I have a twenty foot putt on a four degree slope and I manage to work out the considerable break (and I would put money on most club golfers under reading the break - thats another discussion probably) and coax it to inside a foot for a simple tap in I take pleasure in making the good read as well as getting the pace right. 

As I've said, Aimpoint or any method to read the greens is useless and academic if you struggle with pace or can't start a putt on the right line regularly. You need a good read and a good technique


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

And isn't it bizarre that when Aimpoint is mentioned on here, a certain person always pipes up and tries to be smart. Like I said earlier some discourage others in finding out about it, and you can count yourself in the 'some'. 

Apologies to the OP, listern and learn from the some, and not the minority.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			And isn't it bizarre that when Aimpoint is mentioned on here, a certain person always pipes up and tries to be smart. Like I said earlier some discourage others in finding out about it, and you can count yourself in the 'some'. 

Apologies to the OP, listern and learn from the some, and not the minority.
		
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What exactly is it in this thread that I have said that is so harmful ?

I just asked how you judge the pace of the greens - that's all ? And what happens if the main greens are different pace from the practise green ? 

What's wrong with that ? 

You are attempting to cause an issue that isn't there or defend against something that isn't being attacked


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			And isn't it bizarre that when Aimpoint is mentioned on here, a certain person always pipes up and tries to be smart. Like I said earlier some discourage others in finding out about it, and you can count yourself in the 'some'. 

Apologies to the OP, listern and learn from the some, and not the minority.
		
Click to expand...

People only need to search back on previous Aimpoint threads to see it play out. Pleased that some are sending a PM to a few that do use Aimpoint to ask some questions without it getting lost on here.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			And isn't it bizarre that when Aimpoint is mentioned on here, a certain person always pipes up and tries to be smart.
		
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Yep......and depending on how you read these comments it could be you.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			People only need to search back on previous Aimpoint threads to see it play out. Pleased that some are sending a PM to a few that do use Aimpoint to ask some questions without it getting lost on here.
		
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And not only that but we have to answer the same questions majority of the time that were asked previously on this subject! Some need to ask what do they do using conventional reading if putting green is slower then the actual greens! 

I know what Yourself, Mendie and I would do! Not sure about the conventionalists tho!


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yep......and depending on how you read these comments it could be you.
		
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:rofllease give up your day job...........your so funny!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			And not only that but we have to answer the same questions majority of the time that were asked previously on this subject! Some need to ask what do they do using conventional reading if putting green is slower then the actual greens! 

I know what Yourself, Mendie and I would do! Not sure about the conventionalists tho!
		
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I would use guesswork dependant on how the putts were rolling on the first couple of greens. How about you ? 

Mendie answered straight away and said there was an element of guesswork involved in it - which is exactly what people have been saying.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

I'd be having words with the green keeper, not doing his job properly.


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## huds1475 (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm Tom Kite at reading greens, 30 to 40 % of the time im standing over a putt with no confidence in my read. 

Looking for more information to help me improve

Just written to he guy @ Formby Hall to enquire about AE course.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2016)

Re the original post. 

I hope to get inside my playing partners so I get a good read.......

failing that, usually from beneath the hole if possible. Whether that be behind my ball or not. Then just use my memory of previous putts to best attempt the putt. 

Can honestly say I've never looked into aim point. So don't know the insides of it. And for those it works for. Good luck to ya. from what I've just read in the last 12 pages. It seems the aim pointers have the chip. I haven't seen anyone criticise aim point. Just people ask questions how certain scenarios can be overcome without some sort of a guess. Which imo, all putts over a ft require.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			And not only that but we have to answer the same questions majority of the time that were asked previously on this subject! Some need to ask what do they do using conventional reading if putting green is slower then the actual greens! 

I know what Yourself, Mendie and I would do! Not sure about the conventionalists tho!
		
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I've read every post, The first reply is from Homer with one word and a load of emoji's, later on you make comments about fishing and baiting, Mendie gives straight answers to questions and even agrees there's some guesswork, Homer says there isn't any guesswork but then eventually agrees with Mendie there's a small bit, you and homer then go on about naysayers and accuse others of being protaganists, maybe would be better if you and Homer took a leaf out of Mendies book and simply answered questions rather than went on the defensive.
And yes I have made enquires about Aimpoint and considering doing a course in late April. Mendie sells it,


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			I'd be having words with the green keeper, not doing his job properly.
		
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Which doesn't help you when you are playing unless you have a word after the first green.

So after you have measured on the practise green using all your tools and then find the main greens are a bit different in pace ( as they at most clubs ) - how do you make pace adjustments without the use of your tools ? 

Is it just a simple adjustment based on using your method with a bit of guesswork in regards the difference in the pace ?


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Re the original post. 

I hope to get inside my playing partners so I get a good read.......

failing that, usually from beneath the hole if possible. Whether that be behind my ball or not. Then just use my memory of previous putts to best attempt the putt. 

Can honestly say I've never looked into aim point. So don't know the insides of it. And for those it works for. Good luck to ya. from what I've just read in the last 12 pages. It seems the aim pointers have the chip. I haven't seen anyone criticise aim point. Just people ask questions how certain scenarios can be overcome without some sort of a guess. Which imo, all putts over a ft require.
		
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It's not a chip, it's just the same questions, scenarios, from the same band on here (that are not interested cos if they were they'd of gone on a course) every time anything to do with aimpoint is mentioned.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Is that a serious question  All about getting it in the hole as quickly as you can and if Aimpoint assists that then I'm happy. My putts per round has dropped from 33.16 in 2014 to 31.71 last year. I'm happy that my putting is going forward and I am making better reads and holing more putts.

Of course as I've said, there will be those that will have their interested piqued (and I've already had PM's) and will try it. Others will never try it. All fine if a little frustrating that the never wills write it off as bunkum at the drop of a hat. I think it works, my stats seem to back that up
		
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Homer, it's well documented (your quest for improvement) although I admit I only know of it beciase of comments made towards you in here.  Genuine question a bout the above ,entitled stat though. Has your handicap also improved by 1.5 during that time? Or maybe, you just chip a little more often now, leaving shorter putts and that aids the stat?

personally i think we should all use whatever helps us most. And if aim point gives you more confidence then go for it. But others that don't like it, won't change their mind just beciase of snide insinuations.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			It's not a chip, it's just the same questions, scenarios, from the same band on here (that are not interested cos if they were they'd of gone on a course) every time anything to do with aimpoint is mentioned.
		
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I've seen previous discussions and the convo is the same both ways. If someone feels it won't help them. Why would they go on the course. That doesn't automatically mean that can't have an opinion on it. That makes it found like a cult. 
From what I've seen, bielevers think its full proof and only technique can be blamed for a missed putt. Imo a good putting stroke is easier to practice that it is to learn how to read a putt. So if aim point was full proof ALL pros would use it as they have great technique.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I've read every post, The first reply is from Homer with one word and a load of emoji's, later on you make comments about fishing and baiting, Mendie gives straight answers to questions and even agrees there's some guesswork, Homer says there isn't any guesswork but then eventually agrees with Mendie there's a small bit, you and homer then go on about naysayers and accuse others of being protaganists, maybe would be better if you and Homer took a leaf out of Mendies book and simply answered questions rather than went on the defensive.
And yes I have made enquires about Aimpoint and considering doing a course in late April. Mendie sells it,[/QUOTE

maybe you should read posts from the past where I have answered questions on aimpoint to those who are posting on here, but yet still ask same questions about it. Where in this thread have I said it's not guess work? I've stated early on I know which guess work I'd prefer.
		
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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2016)

3565 said:



			[/QUOTE

maybe you should read posts from the past where I have answered questions on aimpoint to those who are posting on here, but yet still ask same questions about it. Where in this thread have I said it's not guess work? I've stated early on I know which guess work I'd prefer.
		
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I haven't read any previous posts, didn't say you said it wasn't guesswork, I said it was Homer and Mendie, it's an observation the same as papas1982 noticed,  but you and homer did yourselves no favours on this thread, if certain people bother you, ignore them. It detracts from the point your trying to get across.


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## 3565 (Mar 22, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			I've seen previous discussions and the convo is the same both ways. If someone feels it won't help them. Why would they go on the course. That doesn't automatically mean that can't have an opinion on it. That makes it found like a cult. 
From what I've seen, bielevers think its full proof and only technique can be blamed for a missed putt. Imo a good putting stroke is easier to practice that it is to learn how to read a putt. So if aim point was full proof ALL pros would use it as they have great technique.
		
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if someone feels that it won't help them cos they seen it's complicated, too expensive, feel daft for sticking fingers in the air, then fine! It's not for them, but it could be for others? When it's the same people who comment on it that don't use, advocate or interested in how it works no matter how many time Aimpointers explain, it becomes an issue through them! That's why Homer and myself have had PMs about Aimpoint. 
 The new TM M1 was released and all the talk on here, but I never voiced my opinion about it as I'd not seen or tried one and won't give an opinion cos I don't want to try one, that or any other new OEM drivers/clubs so I've no right to an opinion.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2016)

3565 said:



			if someone feels that it won't help them cos they seen it's complicated, too expensive, feel daft for sticking fingers in the air, then fine! It's not for them, but it could be for others? When it's the same people who comment on it that don't use, advocate or interested in how it works no matter how many time Aimpointers explain, it becomes an issue through them! That's why Homer and myself have had PMs about Aimpoint. 
 The new TM M1 was released and all the talk on here, but I never voiced my opinion about it as I'd not seen or tried one and won't give an opinion cos I don't want to try one, that or any other new OEM drivers/clubs so I've no right to an opinion.
		
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of course people can voice an opinion without doing it. I wouldn't jump out a plane without a parachute. And I'd tell anyone who considered to not to be daft. Even without any experience of it. Now that may be a little extreme. 

But it been as this topic was about putting, and how people approach it. Once aim point is raised. All those that dot use it. Don't need to leave the thread. Cost and time have no bearing in me not using aim point. The last time I paid it any attention was when I saw Adam Scott miss putts whilst he used it. 

An an aimpointer can explain how that use it. But just because it works for them. Doesn't mean it will for others. It is simply a technique. Much like hinging in chipping, or preferring to fade or draw a shot. All valid. Nobody said us Of aimpointer was wrong. But I've seen it commented that those who don't, should.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2016)

Get yourself on the practice putting green, on a flat stretch and learn to putt straight. Then get yourself on a sloping part of the practice green and spend time learning how to putt using pace on slopes.

Am I reasonably qualified to make the suggestion? Those that have played with me might think I am, and being semi finalist in Britian's best putter might suggest I have a bit of an idea.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 23, 2016)

Having played with you Brian when you holed everything you looked at, I certainly felt like sticking 2 fingers up in the air in your direction :rofl:


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## delc (Mar 23, 2016)

Two local courses where I find the greens very difficult to read are Pinner Hill and Grimsdyke, particularly the latter. Both these courses are built on the side of a hill and it seems difficult to know what is level. Very often putts that look say uphill and left to right are actually downhill and right to left. I have putted right off one green at Grimsdyke for this reason! We very rarely win away matches at either club, because the players in the home team know the breaks on the greens.


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## Smiffy (Mar 23, 2016)

Wouldn't this game be boring if all greens were as flat as a pancake???


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 23, 2016)

Intrigued about Aimpoint. Couple of questions (genuine).

I have watched the video in the link posted by Homer and  understand how it helps to get the line but just want to clarify how you evaluate how much break there is in the first place. Video on link says it's 90% feel with feet and 10% eye, which is interesting,  but otherwise is judging the break (as opposed to the line) essentially the same as you would in a traditional (for want of a better word) approach. I find the hardest putt are where I can't "see" the break. 

Secondly how does it work with double breaking putts?


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## chrisd (Mar 23, 2016)

I find the discussion quite amusing - people post on here about all sorts of training aids, tips their coaches have given, game golf, swing analysers etc etc etc but mention Aimpoint and, well ............ you get the picture!

I may well do the Aimpoint Express course, if it helps GREAT, if it doesn't it's cost a few quid and a few hours of my time.  Nothing much lost really!


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## Smiffy (Mar 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I may well do the Aimpoint Express course, if it helps _*my playing partners will be mightily relieved*_

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Have modified that for you Mr Five Jerk McGurk.


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## 3565 (Mar 23, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			of course people can voice an opinion without doing it. I wouldn't jump out a plane without a parachute. And I'd tell anyone who considered to not to be daft. Even without any experience of it. Now that may be a little extreme. 

But it been as this topic was about putting, and how people approach it. Once aim point is raised. All those that dot use it. Don't need to leave the thread. Cost and time have no bearing in me not using aim point. The last time I paid it any attention was when I saw Adam Scott miss putts whilst he used it. 

An an aimpointer can explain how that use it. But just because it works for them. Doesn't mean it will for others. It is simply a technique. Much like hinging in chipping, or preferring to fade or draw a shot. All valid. Nobody said us Of aimpointer was wrong. But I've seen it commented that those who don't, should.
		
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b

ive never said those who don't should use it. I've tried to explain in the past as like Homer has and you can notice an underlying sceptisim from a certain few who will try and discredit it. 
Im more then happy to explain to people if they want to know more, PM me, like one or two have done. And I think you'll find that I've not tried to sell it to them but to give them my knowledge I've gained for them to make their own mind up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

For me correctly reading a difficult green is one of the delights of playing golf, even if I don't hole the putt - it's a bit mysterious and almost magical.  As a newbie once said to me after I had holed a long swinging putt 'how did you DO that?'  I'd much rather say 'I don't really know - practice I guess' than 'well in accordance with the Aimpoint method, if I ... and take out my chart and ...'

And - no - I don't use any form of distance measuring device.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2016)

I've kinda wanted to ask a question about aimpoint but don't want to set up residence in either the pro or anti camp

I know nap/grain isn't an issue for a lot but it is for me (& Adam Scott! ) so how does aimpoint consider the effects of grain (either with, against or cross)


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## MendieGK (Mar 23, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I've read every post, The first reply is from Homer with one word and a load of emoji's, later on you make comments about fishing and baiting, Mendie gives straight answers to questions and even agrees there's some guesswork, Homer says there isn't any guesswork but then eventually agrees with Mendie there's a small bit, you and homer then go on about naysayers and accuse others of being protaganists, maybe would be better if you and Homer took a leaf out of Mendies book and simply answered questions rather than went on the defensive.
And yes I have made enquires about Aimpoint and considering doing a course in late April. Mendie sells it,
		
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Very rare for me to not be the controversial one! Thank you


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## garyinderry (Mar 23, 2016)

There is only one way this discussion will be resolved.  We are going to have to have a putt off.   

Best man from each camp step forward.


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## MendieGK (Mar 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I find the discussion quite amusing - people post on here about all sorts of training aids, tips their coaches have given, game golf, swing analysers etc etc etc but mention Aimpoint and, well ............ you get the picture!

I may well do the Aimpoint Express course, if it helps GREAT, if it doesn't it's cost a few quid and a few hours of my time.  Nothing much lost really!
		
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I would say that even if you decide not to use it, it will open your eyes about how much more putts break than you think (hence the 'amateurs under read putts' fact).

As i have said I love it, and do not intend on moving away from it anytime soon, playing partners often ask for help with reads, and they are making more putts because of it. 

Do i try and make them learn it? no.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			There is only one way this discussion will be resolved.
		
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Or everyone pays the Â£200 for the first lesson with Jamie and then they can make an informed guess


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## 3565 (Mar 23, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Or everyone pays the Â£200 for the first lesson with Jamie and then they can make an informed guess
		
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Â£200??  I can get 4 lessons for that with him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2016)

3565 said:



			Â£200??  I can get 4 lessons for that with him.
		
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Maybe that's why Homer was getting us confused about guesswork, he hasn't had the other 3 lessons yet:smirk: :rofl:


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2016)

3565 said:



			Â£200??  I can get 4 lessons for that with him.
		
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According to his website he charges Â£100 per hour and the first lesson has to be 2 hours long




 Each session is a minimum of an hour with the first session required to be 2 hours as this is necessary for Jamie to build a good image of the clients putting which, following verbal, visual and kinaesthetic feedback is then changed to deliver greater results.

*Amateur and PGA Members  ​*Â£100 per hour
​

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http://www.jamiedonaldson.co.uk/privatetuition.html


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe that's why Homer was getting us confused about guesswork, he hasn't had the other 3 lessons yet:smirk: :rofl:
		
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And people wonder why I get defensive and hacked off discussing it all?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And people wonder why I get defensive and hacked off discussing it all?
		
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Get over yourself, so it's ok for you to use emoji's but not us? read back through the thread, you were quite catergorical about Aimpoint not involving guesswork till Mendie pointed out it does, and then you admitted it may have a small amount. Hence confusion.


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## 3565 (Mar 23, 2016)

bobmac said:



			According to his website he charges Â£100 per hour and the first lesson has to be 2 hours long



http://www.jamiedonaldson.co.uk/privatetuition.html

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yeah one on one. But not on a group it isn't.


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## 3565 (Mar 23, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe that's why Homer was getting us confused about guesswork, he hasn't had the other 3 lessons yet:smirk: :rofl:
		
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well going by your stats you don't need Aimpoint, 28 putts last round, best is 1.5 per hole, last 20 rounds 1.7 and averaging 1.8 per hole.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I find the discussion quite amusing - people post on here about all sorts of training aids, tips their coaches have given, game golf, swing analysers etc etc etc but mention Aimpoint and, well ............ you get the picture!

I may well do the Aimpoint Express course, if it helps GREAT, if it doesn't it's cost a few quid and a few hours of my time.  Nothing much lost really!
		
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Do it Chris and I hope it works for you.
All these doubters and I have played with a few of them and none of them blew me away with there putting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2016)

3565 said:



			well going by your stats you don't need Aimpoint, 28 putts last round, best is 1.5 per hole, last 20 rounds 1.7 and averaging 1.8 per hole.
		
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Just had my new putter fitted by a guy called Brian Ridley who is an Aimpoint Instructor and his brief was very interesting, he's running a Course mid-April.

Just need the rest of my game to equal my putting.


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