# Is the backswing important?



## stefanovic (Nov 2, 2018)

Seem to remember a famous golfer (Miller) saying it wasn't. You don't hit the ball with the backswing. Players like Daly and Trevino would appear to confirm this. 
Yet most of our attention is on the backswing, lifting the club against the 'force of gravity'' then letting it drop (even though it's not dropping).  
Thoughts, please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2018)

For decades I played with a rubbish backswing and got down to six - but only because I played so much that I completely grooved the rest of my swing. 

Then I had to pretty much stop playing for a few years and now I'm going again that groove cannot be found. 

My poor backswing is a horrendous blocker to me improving and getting back on track.  I had grooved it in my mind so much that whenever I relax and don't concentrate my head instantly drops me back into my old backswing ways.  And the old grooved rest of the swing just isn't there and it's just a mare.

I wish I had got my backswing sorted 25yrs ago.


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## bobmac (Nov 2, 2018)

The backswing doesn't matter one bit.
Where it finishes however, does matter as thats where you pull from.


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## stefanovic (Nov 2, 2018)

I'm not convinced that the backswing anyone had in the past can be replicated in the present. The bones and tendons for instance will not be as strong as you get older. Think of Lyle, short backswing, maximum power into the ball. I imagined this would be an enduring swing, but it wasn't. I think Lyle went down to being like a 4 handicapper.
The point I'm attempting to make is that the only part of the swing which is important is the hitting area. When I watch golf videos there is some guy making it sound easy, but it isn't. Not only that but I never get see just how good the shot really is. You are relying on what happens in the hit on what has happened in the backswing and first part of the downswing to provide the momentum and accuracy in accordance with one of the laws of physics. This is the 3rd Law of Motion where an action produces a reaction, in this case the club head hitting the ball.
If the backswing isn't important, or unsustainable, should I consider even the downswing and follow through to also be unimportant, and only the actual hit is important?


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## Foxholer (Nov 2, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			...
If the backswing isn't important, or unsustainable, should I consider even the downswing and follow through to also be unimportant, and *only the actual hit is important*?
		
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That's the only thing that governs what the ball does! The Moment Of Truth!

But if you want the impact conditions to be as you intend, then other parts of the swing ARE important!

Actual follow-through only reflects what has happened earlier in the swing, though often worthwhile to use as a 'swing thought'.


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## jim8flog (Nov 2, 2018)

I find if I do not back swing the balls goes nowhere.


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## hairball_89 (Nov 2, 2018)

It's an interesting question. For me, my backswing almost entirely governs what happens on my actual swing. Swing back too quickly, I get unbalanced and completely lose control of my body positioning. The result is virtually always a little white ball flying off to the next village on the right somewhere. Controlled back swing keeps me in control of my positioning, allowing me to really work through the ball. Result? Somewhere down the fairway (hopefully).

Yes, the important bit is c. 2" before the ball to c. 2" after, and what the clubhead is doing at that time. But for me, all the prep to get it doing the right thing, comes from being in control of my backswing and allowing myself to let rip on the actual swing.


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## jusme (Nov 2, 2018)

I think it's critical. I can tell half way back on my back swing if I'm going to hit a decent shot. If I'm on the plane that works for me (and I know it very quickly on the takeaway) I know I can just continue and will hit a decent shot.


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## Wolf (Nov 3, 2018)

It's an interesting question  does back swing matter. In a way the answer is yes, because you need a back swing to create momentum to deliver the club to hit the ball.

I think the better way of perhaps wording it is: Does the style or technique of the back swing matter?.. to me the answer to this is categorically No!

All that matters is the ability to consistently deliver the club face square at impact. Look at swings like Rose, Adam Scott etc, and they get described as text book. Yet Furyk had more loops than the Nemesis ride at Alton Towers, Garcia, Fowler have big loops, DJ has an unbelievably closed club face at the top, Spieth is upright. 

The list is endless of superb players with what would be classed as fundamentally flawed swings in the text books but they consistently deliver the face of club correctly at impact. 

I understand why people go in hunt of swing rebuilds to get better, hasn't Leadbetter even created the 'A' swing methodology to do just this create a repeatable alternative action that does one thing, deliver club face correctly at impact, whether you like the guy or technique or not I like the idea that he wants to make it simpler to square the club. 

But again it's  purely matter of opinion and mist people want a swing that does both look good and performs good perhaps this is our gilolfing vanity. Personally I'm not worried about if it looks good just if it perform, I'd take a Furyk swing all day if it consistently worked.


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## stefanovic (Nov 3, 2018)

Leadbetter described the 'move away' as the first part of the backswing by the rotation of the abdomen. So I tried it and it sort of worked but I got lost after that. Then there was Hogan's backswing - hands, arms, shoulders - proved too much and by the time I'd started the downswing with the hips I'd forgotten all about hitting the ball. The problem is the swing only takes about 2 seconds. I think that's the reason why you can't have more than 2 swing thoughts.
After I posted this thread I played 18 holes and tried to forget the backswing. It was encouraging. A few pars and a couple of birdies. Just concentrating on a centre of gravity point, but too early to draw a conclusion.

Because I like physics and also the golf swing I'm aware that what happens is never what you assume. You think you take the club away against the force of gravity, but there is no force of gravity. The club does not then drop with gravity once the backswing is complete. The mass of the Earth is moving up to meet it, so any additional force you use is most likely to accelerate the club too early. When the club head is arriving at the ball it's just as valid to say the ball is arriving at the club head. Once the ball has left the club head the follow through is of no significance. 
No wonder the swing is complicated!


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## Slime (Nov 3, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			Because I like physics and also the golf swing I'm aware that what happens is never what you assume. *You think you take the club away against the force of gravity, but there is no force of gravity. The club does not then drop with gravity once the backswing is complete. The mass of the Earth is moving up to meet it*, so any additional force you use is most likely to accelerate the club too early. When the club head is arriving at the ball it's just as valid to say the ball is arriving at the club head. Once the ball has left the club head the follow through is of no significance.
No wonder the swing is complicated!
		
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I must be either stupid or completely missing the point because what I've highlighted sounds like a load of old balls, to me.
There is gravity involved, there must be, otherwise my ball will never land, (assuming it got off the ground in the first place)!


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 3, 2018)

What does matter is the moment of impact, needing timing and tempo.
 However my backswing will decide how my shot goes simply because if I know it doesnt feel right I'm goose'd straight away. Possibly even more important for me is that fraction  of a second at  address moving into take away. Too often I start as if I've been jolted with 450v


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## stefanovic (Nov 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I must be either stupid or completely missing the point because what I've highlighted sounds like a load of old balls, to me.
There is gravity involved, there must be, otherwise my ball will never land, (assuming it got off the ground in the first place)!
		
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So here's a question for you. At the end of a round, do your feet ache? I'll assume yes. This is not because you have been pressing into the ground, it's because the ground is pressing into you. If there ever was a force of gravity then the moon would have collapsed on to the earth. It stays in orbit because of the physics discovered by Einstein and others. When you hit the ball it is the warping of space and time caused by a large object, in this case the earth, which brings it back down to the ground. The moon on the other hand stays in its orbit because of its motion and distance away. There is no attraction between the ball and the ground. The ball is made of atoms and so is the ground and the ball never gets high enough to go into orbit. Every object moves in as straight a line as it can within curved space time.
What makes this more intriguing that every time you hit a golf ball you influence the furthest star.


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## Imurg (Nov 3, 2018)

What's more important is whether you can get the club back to the ball properly.
A good back swing makes this easier but if you can do it with a Jim Furykesque swing then it doesn't matter at all.
In my opinion.....


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## stefanovic (Nov 3, 2018)

Has anyone been able to successfully copy the swings of the great golfers? This would include Furyk. I know some people tried to copy Trevino but only with limited success.


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## Wolf (Nov 3, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			Has anyone been able to successfully copy the swings of the great golfers? This would include Furyk. I know some people tried to copy Trevino but only with limited success.
		
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Check out Matt Wolf college player destined for big things and that's worse than  Furyk but it works


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## Slime (Nov 3, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			So here's a question for you. At the end of a round, do your feet ache? I'll assume yes. This is not because you have been pressing into the ground, it's because the ground is pressing into you. *If there ever was a force of gravity then the moon would have collapsed on to the earth. *It stays in orbit because of the physics discovered by Einstein and others. When you hit the ball it is the warping of space and time caused by a large object, in this case the earth, which brings it back down to the ground. The moon on the other hand stays in its orbit because of its motion and distance away. There is no attraction between the ball and the ground. The ball is made of atoms and so is the ground and the ball never gets high enough to go into orbit. Every object moves in as straight a line as it can within curved space time.
What makes this more intriguing that every time you hit a golf ball you influence the furthest star.
		
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So, gravity doesn't exist ................................. interesting.
I wish someone had told Isaac Newton.


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## MadAdey (Nov 3, 2018)

bobmac said:



			The backswing doesn't matter one bit.
Where it finishes however, does matter as thats where you pull from.
		
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As always a short, sharp answer that is straight to the point and on point. Positioning to me is what is important in the backswing. I know if I take it away past a certain point then it will be set right at the top, giving me a good shot. So in a way the backswing might be important.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 3, 2018)

Some interesting takes on the backswing here


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2018)

My new teacher says that he isn't so concerned with the way I backswing but that I get to where i can make a good down swing. I've seen both Furyk and  Daly live, and their backswings, whilst not  being orthodox both led to wonderful positions in the downswing and a very tidy sum of prize money each


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 4, 2018)

If you can deliver the club properly from an â€œoff planeâ€ open, closed, flat or steep position at the top, then it doesnâ€™t matter. Thatâ€™s an if! 

Most mortals need to be in good positions in the back swing to be able to deliver the club affectively on the downswing.


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## stefanovic (Nov 4, 2018)

Slime said:



			So, gravity doesn't exist ................................. interesting.
I wish someone had told Isaac Newton.
		
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Newton's law of gravity still works, based on the inverse square law, but it isn't quite accurate in a strong gravitational field. Newton provided the mathematics for Kepler's finding that the planets travel elliptically around the sun. However what Newton didn't know was the strange orbit of Mercury where it doesn't quite get back to where it started. He did ponder on why the planets do stay in a fixed orbit when they should move toward each other. Enter Einstein to provide a new theory of gravity (General Relativity) which perfectly described the orbit of Mercury and the movement of all planets, stars, black holes and galaxies. It even predicted Big Bang cosmology.


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			Newton's law of gravity still works, based on the inverse square law, but it isn't quite accurate in a strong gravitational field. Newton provided the mathematics for Kepler's finding that the planets travel elliptically around the sun. However what Newton didn't know was the strange orbit of Mercury where it doesn't quite get back to where it started. He did ponder on why the planets do stay in a fixed orbit when they should move toward each other. Enter Einstein to provide a new theory of gravity (General Relativity) which perfectly described the orbit of Mercury and the movement of all planets, stars, black holes and galaxies. It even predicted Big Bang cosmology.
		
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I didn't realise that it was all that simple ðŸ˜€


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## stefanovic (Nov 4, 2018)

Well at least the GR equation which explains how mass, energy and pressure control space time can be written down. Now try and find the equation for the golf swing, and it's certain to be more complicated.


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## Foxholer (Nov 4, 2018)

stefanovic said:








Well at least the GR equation which explains how mass, energy and pressure control space time can be written down. Now try and find the equation for the golf swing, and it's certain to be more complicated.
		
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Perhaps Prof Roy Kerr (aka Kerr Metric) might be able to help - he (still) plays golf, though only 9 holes, in his retirement - off an 18 index aged 73. He might say it was a bit of a black hole though!

On a more philosophical note... the ability of GR to explain/predict the aberration in the orbit of Mercury - truly confirmed after publication (and even really settled quite recently), demonstrates the 'power and truth' of scientific method! It's one of the (many) events that established Einstein as one of the truly great contributors to our understanding of the universe! Of course, there'll be further iterations that will 'simplify' our understanding of our universe (or multiverses!).

As for the golf swing...it can be described in a very complicted fashion - aka Jorgeson's #The Physics of Golf' and/or Homer Kelly's TGM style - or relatively simply as in Sacho McKenzie's '3 pendulum method'. If you really want to get into the 'science;, Dave Tutelman's articles are a 'great' resource. I especially like(d) Rod White's (yet another Kiwi physicist!) approach! Here's his summary of videos of Pros.....

The real golf swing is more like a triple pendulum with the â€˜beamâ€™ between the neck and the shoulder forming the third arm of the pendulum. While watching the videos, remember the essence of a good golf swing is the reverse of the ice skater effect â€“ the transfer of energy with unfolding. The total power produced by the golfer (about 2.5 kW for a professional) comes from the biggest muscles in the body â€“ the upper legs and torso. The problem is how to transfer this power, from the muscles, through the shoulders, arms, club, and eventually, to the ball.

The backswing


consists of a large shoulder rotation against the hips to pretension the muscles of the torso.
minimises the moment of inertia of the arms and the club by folding the left arm against the shoulders and cocking the wrists. In all cases the down swing begins with the left arm folded almost parallel with the shoulders, and the club typically cocked to 90 degrees.
The downswing movement

leads with the large muscles of the legs and torso rotating and building momentum in the hips, with
the whole folded system -- the upper body, shoulders, arms and club -- moving almost as one.
Once the rotation is firmly established, the arms swing out â€“ transferring energy from the body to the arms,
then the club swings out, transferring energy to the club.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 4, 2018)

chrisd said:



			My new teacher says that he isn't so concerned with the way I backswing but that I get to where i can make a good down swing. I've seen both Furyk and  Daly live, and their backswings, whilst not  being orthodox both led to wonderful positions in the downswing and a very tidy sum of prize money each
		
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And the odd major as well


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## Curls (Nov 4, 2018)

This thread got weird.

Bobs wisdom was almost the final word for me, to it Iâ€™d add that there is one really important aspect of the backswing and thatâ€™s tempo. Get the rhythm right from take away and if youâ€™re in a good position before you start turning back towards the ball youâ€™ve got most of the hard work done imo. How you get there is up to you, and weâ€™ll all have different physicality etc in that regard


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## stefanovic (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			As for the golf swing...it can be described in a very complicated fashion
		
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Thanks for all that reply. I never thought we'd be talking about multiverses, the prediction of eternal inflation. 
I think the point I'm making is that sport cannot be described in the same way as physics, Even if you could predict the movement all atomic particles and determine what happens next (as in the swing), you would still fall down on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (you'll never know absolute position and motion). As in this joke: Heisenberg gets pulled over for speeding. The traffic cop asks him if he knows what speed he was doing. Heisenberg says 'No, because I know exactly where I am'. 
Or when the laconic Paul Dirac was asked by a reporter "Will it be all right if I put it this way - `Professor Dirac solves all the problems of mathematical physics, but is unable to find a better way of figuring out Babe Ruth's batting average'?"
Dirac's reply: Yes.

Forgetting the planet Mercury, if G/R was wrong, then consider that fairways and greens would need to be constantly repaired. There would be holes and foot indentations all over the place. Luckily, the ground rises to even it all out.


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## Slime (Nov 5, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			Thanks for all that reply. I never thought we'd be talking about multiverses, the prediction of eternal inflation.
I think the point I'm making is that sport cannot be described in the same way as physics, Even if you could predict the movement all atomic particles and determine what happens next (as in the swing), you would still fall down on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (you'll never know absolute position and motion). As in this joke: Heisenberg gets pulled over for speeding. The traffic cop asks him if he knows what speed he was doing. Heisenberg says 'No, because I know exactly where I am'.
Or when the laconic Paul Dirac was asked by a reporter "Will it be all right if I put it this way - `Professor Dirac solves all the problems of mathematical physics, but is unable to find a better way of figuring out Babe Ruth's batting average'?"
Dirac's reply: Yes.

Forgetting the planet Mercury, if G/R was wrong, then consider that fairways and greens would need to be constantly repaired. There would be holes and foot indentations all over the place. Luckily, the ground rises to even it all out.
		
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What medication are you on?


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## stefanovic (Nov 7, 2018)

Slime said:



			What medication are you on?
		
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I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.
		
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I wouldn't get too upset, I'm sure Slime was just joking and wouldn't intend to cause offence. I've played golf with Slime and he really is a decent guy


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## Slime (Nov 8, 2018)

stefanovic said:



			I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.
		
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Genuinely no offence meant, stefanovic, but I really don't understand a word you are saying ......................... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I was brought up believing that gravity existed!
You're obviously on a far higher cerebral plain than I but, please, try to explain things in a manner that ordinary people can understand in order to have a more reasoned debate.


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## Slime (Nov 8, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I wouldn't get too upset, I'm sure Slime was just joking and wouldn't intend to cause offence. *I've played golf with Slime and he really is a decent guy*

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Thanks chrisd, I appreciate that.


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## TreeSeeker (Nov 8, 2018)

Better to avoid getting into physics here, and i feel obliged to add uncertainty shouldn't be factor here given the scale. We are really just talking mechanics.

And on the mechanics i would echo curl's post. Although i would add, for me, getting the backswing right is also about avoiding injury by reducing unnecessary strain.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.
		
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I am someone who admires those who have discovered and used the laws of physics to improve our lives on this planet. However, like Slime, my understanding of the finer and extreme points is not very near physics graduates etc.
But those acedemics have to be a bit careful to not be so serious in all their
conversations/written exchanges, that they fail to realise that all such conversations are not necessarily serious and literal. There is such a thing as vernacular and frivolity, and I'm sure that Slime was not being serious, but in a way, was paying you something of a compliment for your physics knowledge.
E.g you must have read/heard someone use the phrase " whatever he's on , I want some of it", when that someone is admiring him.
So, please lighten up, ðŸ˜€     And stay.


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## HappyHybrids (Jan 6, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			What does matter is the moment of impact, needing timing and tempo.
However my backswing will decide how my shot goes simply because if I know it doesnt feel right I'm goose'd straight away. Possibly even more important for me is that fraction  of a second at  address moving into take away. Too often I start as if I've been jolted with 450v

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I have a really slow backswing, like exaggerated slow.  From the moment I begin to start the backswing until I transition to the downswing is at least 2 seconds, but its the only way i can hit consistently.

Too fast a backswing and I will always either top it or worse, have a fresh air swipe.

An interesting aside to this.  I had a grip problem that was causing me to close the face at impact.  Whilst the pro was trying to correct this issue during a lesson, he had me do a half backswing then hold.  He told me to look back at what angle the club face was pointing at that moment, and then rotated the club head slightly and told me that is the angle it _should _be pointing at.  He then told me, with the club suspended in mid-swing, to continue with the rest of the backswing and downswing and strike the ball.  I thought there'd be no chance I'd hit it, but it ended up one of the cleanest hits I'd had til that point (much more consistent now thankfully).

I take from it that if you know your ideal release point for your downswing, then it will serve you as much use simply lifting the club in to that position, like a baseball player awaiting a fastball, as it would my super slow backswing.  The only objective is to have your club face in a favourable position at the point of impact.

For some (me) a slow, consistent backswing is crucial to set up my downswing properly.  For others, not so much.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

If your iron was a hammer and you wanted to drive a nail into the bottom of a door frame then how would you use the hammer.   Our brains know how to direct our bodies as long as the task is clear to us.  To drive a six inch nail into the frame would you take a back swing? Of course you would have to but you would not do it consciously, your brain would compute the momentum required and instruct your body to swing the hammer sufficiently to create a suitable impact.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2019)

My teacher years ago said to me 
The backswing needs to put the club in the right place to deliver it to the ball.
Like parking your car in a parking space , you need to place the car in certain positions to get it in the space.
Get it wrong and you canâ€™t get the car in, get it right and it makes it easy to do,.
Always remembered that.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 22, 2019)

hairball_89 said:



			It's an interesting question. For me, my backswing almost entirely governs what happens on my actual swing. Swing back too quickly, I get unbalanced and completely lose control of my body positioning. The result is virtually always a little white ball flying off to the next village on the right somewhere. Controlled back swing keeps me in control of my positioning, allowing me to really work through the ball. Result? Somewhere down the fairway (hopefully).

Yes, the important bit is c. 2" before the ball to c. 2" after, and what the clubhead is doing at that time. But for me, all the prep to get it doing the right thing, comes from being in control of my backswing and allowing myself to let rip on the actual swing.
		
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Iâ€™m the same, on a day where my back swing is pure I play decent ish golf.  On a bad backswing day I am forced to try and correct so many things in the downswing.


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