# Adjustable driver loft and affect on spin



## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

I put this in another thread, but it was either overlooked or missed, so would appreciate some opinions...

I have a Callaway X-Hot driver 10.5 regular shaft. If I adjust it to be closed it increases the loft by 1 degree to 11.5. When I do this, my drives "tend" to be a bit straighter, but probably max out around 200-210. I assume though that by increasing the loft I am actually increasing the spin? Would I have more luck with actually adjusting the face to drop the loft to 9.5 in terms of distance as it's like to create less spin? I assume however this will ensure for a considerably lower ball flight (which is one of my weaknesses tbh)


I had a Trackman session at the start of this summer and my numbers on AoA were fairly consistent around -3. Obviously meaning I was hitting down, rather than up but I couldn't work out in the short session how I could actually improve that. This combined with a lower loft made for a very low ball flight and a loss of distance. I have no idea what the spin rate was.


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 19, 2014)

More loft = more spin, no doubt about this. A less lofted club hit on the up can achieve the same launch angle with less spin. So can my SLDR!


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2014)

Where is your ball positioned in relation to your feet?


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## mashleyR7 (Nov 19, 2014)

Are you saying that can't have the driver set to draw without lowering the degree to 10.5 or lower? I thought you can. I've bought this driver last week but not played with it properly yet.


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2014)

There's a crossfield video on this somewhere. I'm sure you can track it down.

I think the essence of it is that you need to match your aoa with the dynamic loft you present to minimise spin. The problem is that, as you have found, if you have a negative or very shallow aoa this means your low spinning shot is also low which is not helpful.

Crossfield suggests that rather than tinkering with shafts you modify your swing to change impact. If you want to do this I think you would find it helpful to book a session with some sort of launch monitor, otherwise it will be hard to identify exactly which parameters are changing. I think this idea was explored in the recent 'how shameful is your distance' thread.

Coincidently. Three of us had an impromptu flightscope hack last night. It was fascinating. If you have a good instructor and are comfortable with the whole fixing by numbers ethos then I'm sure it would be a better route than trial and error.


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## garyinderry (Nov 19, 2014)

as bob is alluding to.   if you are hitting down on your driver, its highly likely that you have the ball teed up too far back in your stance.   tee the ball further forward and chances are you will catch the ball on the upswing and produce a positive AOA.

changing you driver by a degree here and there by opening up the face does very little in all honesty.


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Where is your ball positioned in relation to your feet?
		
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garyinderry said:



			as bob is alluding to.   if you are hitting down on your driver, its highly likely that you have the ball teed up too far back in your stance.   tee the ball further forward and chances are you will catch the ball on the upswing and produce a positive AOA.

changing you driver by a degree here and there by opening up the face does very little in all honesty.
		
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I always tee the ball pretty much in line with my left heel. I have even started lining the club up 6 inches or so behind the ball, opening my left foot, but keeping my heel fairly still and stepping to the right with my right foot. The ball is definitely in the "right" place and not too far back, but I still think my AoA is negative (although it has been a while and I have implemented some changes, so perhaps it isn't as bad as I think)


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

pendodave said:



			There's a crossfield video on this somewhere. I'm sure you can track it down.

I think the essence of it is that you need to match your aoa with the dynamic loft you present to minimise spin. The problem is that, as you have found, if you have a negative or very shallow aoa this means your low spinning shot is also low which is not helpful.

Crossfield suggests that rather than tinkering with shafts you modify your swing to change impact. If you want to do this I think you would find it helpful to book a session with some sort of launch monitor, otherwise it will be hard to identify exactly which parameters are changing. I think this idea was explored in the recent 'how shameful is your distance' thread.

Coincidently. Three of us had an impromptu flightscope hack last night. It was fascinating. If you have a good instructor and are comfortable with the whole fixing by numbers ethos then I'm sure it would be a better route than trial and error.
		
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I have seen the video and it's helpful to understand, but he doesn't explain how he is able to so freely change his AoA so as an amateur without the access to a machine that can tell me if I'm actually doing anything to it, it's all about trial and error unfortunately.


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

mashleyR7 said:



			Are you saying that can't have the driver set to draw without lowering the degree to 10.5 or lower? I thought you can. I've bought this driver last week but not played with it properly yet.
		
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I don't believe you can, but perhaps I am wrong. I thought the options only allowed for 3 different face settings, (S) neutral, i.e. 10.5*, (O) - Open, face angle open by 2.5* causing effective loft drop to 9.5* and (C) closed, face angle closed by 1.5* and effective loft increased by 1 degree to 11.5

I think the X2 Hot allows both to be adjusted without affecting the other, but not the X-hot 1.


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## garyinderry (Nov 19, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I always tee the ball pretty much in line with my left heel. I have even started lining the club up 6 inches or so behind the ball, opening my left foot, but keeping my heel fairly still and stepping to the right with my right foot. The ball is definitely in the "right" place and not too far back, but I still think my AoA is negative (although it has been a while and I have implemented some changes, so perhaps it isn't as bad as I think)
		
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Most likely it still isn't far enough forward.  If you are hitting down with it well forward it has to be a choppy out to in swing.  

Please make a video or even get someone to take a picture of yourself in set up.


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## One Planer (Nov 19, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			More loft = more spin, no doubt about this. A less lofted club hit on the up can achieve the same launch angle with less spin. So can my SLDR!
		
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I don't get that.Not saying you're wrong, but.

Are you saying if I were to hit both a 9.5Â° and a 12Â° driver with the same +1Â° AoA, the 12Â° will spin more?

If so, I'd probably disagree.


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 19, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I don't get that.Not saying you're wrong, but.

Are you saying if I were to hit both a 9.5Â° and a 12Â° driver with the same +1Â° AoA, the 12Â° will spin more?

If so, I'd probably disagree.
		
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The higher the loft the more the backspin. So a 9 iron imparts more backspin than a 5 iron & a 12Â° driver imparts more than a 9Â°. Simple physics proves that.


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## One Planer (Nov 19, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			The higher the loft the more the backspin. So a 9 iron imparts more backspin than a 5 iron & a 12Â° driver imparts more than a 9Â°. Simple physics proves that.
		
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Not really a relivant example.

While true a 9 iron has more loft, it also has a more upright shaft meaning it's struck with a steep angle of attack. By comparison a 5 iron has a  much flatter lie and is struck with a much shallower AoA. Still negative, but not by any where near the same amount as a 9 iron.

If were talking simple physics, you cannot have 2 wildly differing variables (5 and 9 iron) as, by design, the are used differently.


If you were to take two drivers. Same shaft, same head type, same robot swinging the club. One having a 9.5Â° loft and the other 12Â° and both being hit with the same 1Â° +AoA, I would bet there wouldn't be a massive difference in spin, but there would be a difference in launch angle, purely because of the increased loft (2.5Â°) between the two heads.

Again, I'm happy to be *proved* wrong, but given the exact same impact conditions, I cannot understand how there can be a difference in spin. Launch angle yes. Spin, I'm not convinced.


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			Most likely it still isn't far enough forward.  If you are hitting down with it well forward it has to be a choppy out to in swing.  

Please make a video or even get someone to take a picture of yourself in set up.
		
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According to the Trackman numbers, the club path is positive 3 degrees, which as far as I know indicates a in-to-out swing. I don't know, perhaps I need another go on a machine to see if my numbers have changed much. 

I'm purely making an assumption that the ball could end up with a very low flight because my AoA is still negative but perhaps the reason I'm not getting much distance with the club at 12* is because I now am hitting up more often and the increased spin is causing a problem and lowering the loft will actually produce favourable results.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I don't get that.Not saying you're wrong, but.

Are you saying if I were to hit both a 9.5Â° and a 12Â° driver with the same +1Â° AoA, the 12Â° will spin more?

If so, I'd probably disagree.
		
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It's absolutely correct!

A 60* pitching wedge produces a lot more spin than a 19-21* 3/4 iron!

As for the OP's question...

Closing the face 1.5* means you have have to open it by the same amount when you hit the ball - *effectively* increasing the loft (by 0.9*). 

So if you want the same launch/spin then you would need to lower the loft by a compensating amount.

As others have posted, that's not a huge adjustment compared to the one that changing the CofG can make or, even better, adjusting your AofA so that you are hitting upon the ball - Joe Miller hits 10/11* up!


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2014)

If the ball is well forward, that would suggest you are getting too far ahead of the ball at impact.
Try this drill below. It's designed to stop too much lateral slide on the downswing and keeps the weight on the INSIDE of your front foot at the end of the swing. I suspect your weight is on the outside of your foot.

[video=youtube;CplahOxJmsA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CplahOxJmsA&index=23&list=PL7Uf2W3sfvqYBJ3OUldKvQT7ZWYEmPOyW[/video]


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## One Planer (Nov 19, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's absolutely correct!

A 60* pitching wedge produces a lot more spin than a 19-21* 3/4 iron!
		
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#13


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

bobmac said:



			If the ball is well forward, that would suggest *you are getting too far ahead of the ball at impact.*
Try this drill below. It's designed to stop too much lateral slide on the downswing and keeps the weight on the INSIDE of your front foot at the end of the swing. I suspect your weight is on the outside of your foot.
		
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TBH I suspect that is quite likely the main fault. I try to tilt away in an effort to combat this, but this feels very unnatural and I occasionally feel myself inadvertently straightening up.

I'll give the drill a go and see if there are any improvements! Cheers bob.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2014)

Gareth said:



			#13
		
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There's certainly not 40* difference though is there!

I believe Trackman actually calls the relevant stat (Dynamic Loft - AofA) Spin Loft!


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## One Planer (Nov 19, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There's certainly not 40* difference though is there!

I believe Trackman actually calls the relevant stat (Dynamic Loft - AofA) Spin Loft!
		
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I agree but, as I say, it's not a like-for-like comparison.

It would be like saying my 58Â° wedge spins more than my 3 iron.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I agree but, as I say, it's not a like-for-like comparison.

It would be like saying my 58Â° wedge spins more than my 3 iron.
		
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Read this thread then! http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15099-spin-loft-backspin-attack-angle.html

Or Google Spin Loft and download/read the Trackman Newsletter7

Then pay me the 20 mins you owe me!  :rofl:


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2014)

Talk about a hijack


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## One Planer (Nov 19, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Read this thread then! http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15099-spin-loft-backspin-attack-angle.html

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			Spin loft is the difference between AoA and dynamic loft. If you have a level strike and deliver 20 degrees of loft your spin loft is 20. If you hit up on the ball 5 degrees and deliver 20 degrees of dynamic loft your spin loft is 15 degrees. *You can up up, level or down and not increase or decrease spin if this "spin loft" number stays the same. The only thing that would change with a center hit would be vertical launch angle*.
		
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Are we talking spin as a Â° or RPM?

Based on the variables and conditions I stated in post #13, the spin loft would be fractionally higher based on the difference of the loft(2.5Â°) of the club head, but how does that translate in RPM?

Does it translate?


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2014)

Read that Newsletter I mentioned - Fundamental 3!

25 minutes!


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 19, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Not really a relivant example.

While true a 9 iron has more loft, it also has a more upright shaft meaning it's struck with a steep angle of attack. By comparison a 5 iron has a  much flatter lie and is struck with a much shallower AoA. Still negative, but not by any where near the same amount as a 9 iron.

If were talking simple physics, you cannot have 2 wildly differing variables (5 and 9 iron) as, by design, the are used differently.


If you were to take two drivers. Same shaft, same head type, same robot swinging the club. One having a 9.5Â° loft and the other 12Â° and both being hit with the same 1Â° +AoA, I would bet there wouldn't be a massive difference in spin, but there would be a difference in launch angle, purely because of the increased loft (2.5Â°) between the two heads.

Again, I'm happy to be *proved* wrong, but given the exact same impact conditions, I cannot understand how there can be a difference in spin. Launch angle yes. Spin, I'm not convinced.
		
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If you had a 9 iron the same length as a driver it would produce a lot more backspin, it's simple physics. Granted the difference between 9Â° & 12Â° won't be much but more loft HSS to give more backspin.


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## the_coach (Nov 19, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I had a Trackman session at the start of this summer and my numbers on AoA were fairly consistent around -3. Obviously meaning I was hitting down, rather than up but I couldn't work out in the short session how I could actually improve that. This combined with a lower loft made for a very low ball flight and a loss of distance. I have no idea what the spin rate was.
		
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as has been pointed out could well be down to you moving too far towards  target before impact. 
it's in general to do with where the low point of  your swing arc falls in relation to where impact is - with a driver off  a tee you want that low point to be some 3" to 4" prior to impact so  the clubhead has 'leveled' out at low point so then it is on the rise into &  through impact.

crucial to consider the low point of any swing  arc with whatever club from putter thru driver will occur approximately  opposite your sternum, so real crucial just where your sternum/center is  in relation to the ball position not just at impact but also at address.

so if you move leftwards laterally too much prior to impact  with the hips + upper body & head & you move that 'low point'  right upto or in front of the ball so you are then going to hit downwards  through impact. as well as hitting with a negative attack angle you then doing this would also be  going to de-loft the face some too, so flight would be a ways too low & not a bunch of distance, plus  this face orientation to the ball will likely mean your point of impact  is pretty high up on the face.

set-up is key, ball position, I advise folks to have there driver  ball position opposite the lead or left armpit. {as stance foot width  can be unreliable as folks can have wide or narrower stances, or closed or  open stances so the ball in relation to heel position can be a whole heap different} also if you think about it the lead or left shoulder is  the fulcrum/radius of the left arm + club in the swing motion.

key too,  not mentioned in the thread yet - is tee height.
 (often times teeing the  ball a little ways too low will encourage a downwards & de-lofted  strike through impact) 
tee height as a guide you'd want the equator of  the ball level with the top middle of the crown of the driver. to many  folks who often don't make solid contact with the driver this can often  times look to be too high as they don't think up at this height they can  ever make solid contact - but it something that's crucial to either a  level strike through the ball or even better a +AoA.

also key is  the secondary spine tilt away from target, so top of spine is further  away from the ball than the bottom of the spine, left shoulder higher  than the right. so with this the sternum/center is some 3" to 4"+ inches  away from the ball. before the takeaway starts & crucially this positional relationship needs to  remain so.

I see so many folks who get a reasonably good tee  height, ball position in a good forwards location & they have a  reasonable secondary spine tilt at first address position. 
trouble is  they feel uncomfortable as they feel their center plus head is a ways  too far to the right. so during the 'settle' period prior to takeaway  they proceed to undo this original good set-up by angling their head,  face, eyes & chest to be facing & squarer to their forwards ball  position - which immediately loses their secondary tilt & places their sternum  +head rightways up to the ball presetting their swings low point to far  left, during the transition & downswing it then moves further left  -so -AoA + de-loft plus ball high off the face.

{re the thread  within the thread. spin loft at it's simplest is the difference at  collision between the dynamic loft & the attack angle. spin loft in  degrees is directly correlated to the rpms of backspin produced &  ball speed. the bigger the spin loft angle in degrees at collision the  greater the back spin will be produced in rpms plus the lower the ball speed}


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## the_coach (Nov 19, 2014)

have a look at this in relation to where the sternum center needs to be. using the driver clubhead opposite the sternum so well behind the ball at address is a real good range drill. 

so to get/move the clubhead behind the ball at address when out during play, you just move the hands arms upto the ball by moving the left shoulder up right shoulder under towards the ball but not moving the head or chest orientation position at all, sternum remains opposite & facing a position some 4" behind the ball so the chest shoulders hips remain also parallel left to the target line.

[video=youtube_share;lnopJFvTa3Q]http://youtu.be/lnopJFvTa3Q[/video]


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## the_coach (Nov 19, 2014)

good drill with an empty ball sleeve box.

[video=youtube_share;mfli4ocXFzk]http://youtu.be/mfli4ocXFzk[/video]


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## woody69 (Nov 19, 2014)

Thanks Coach. Some great points to think about. Will definitely take that to the range this Fri and see if any improvements can be made


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## Wildrover (Nov 20, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			If you had a 9 iron the same length as a driver it would produce a lot more backspin, it's simple physics. Granted the difference between 9Â° & 12Â° won't be much but more loft HSS to give more backspin.
		
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One thing you're forgetting is the quality of strike. A player who plays with a slice will spin the ball a lot. If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin. I know fade is side spin but a fade flight will also produce more backspin.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2014)

Wildrover said:



			One thing you're forgetting is the quality of strike. A player who plays with a slice will spin the ball a lot. If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin. I know fade is side spin but a fade flight will also produce more backspin.
		
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I disagree with almost all of this! 

The only reason there's 'more' spin on fade flights is because it's rather easier to do! That's because legs get in the way of 'exaggerated' Draw shots and the body is turning (and staying upright) in a way that encourages a cut across the ball rather than around it!

More loft *reduces the effect* of the 'sidespin' because there is more backspin - so the spin-axis is closer to zero.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 20, 2014)

I recently realised I was hitting down on my driver, a couple of range sessions later and it was just amazing.

Works for my 3 wood and hybrid too as I was hitting down TOO much with these too! I also added width to my swing which further increased control and distance. I was nailing my 3 wood past the driver of the big guy in the bay next to me!

I hit better shots with all these down.


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## Wildrover (Nov 21, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I disagree with almost all of this! 

The only reason there's 'more' spin on fade flights is because it's rather easier to do! That's because legs get in the way of 'exaggerated' Draw shots and the body is turning (and staying upright) in a way that encourages a cut across the ball rather than around it!

More loft *reduces the effect* of the 'sidespin' because there is more backspin - so the spin-axis is closer to zero.
		
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I guess the trackman lies to me then.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 21, 2014)

Wildrover said:



			I guess the trackman lies to me then.
		
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as he's primarily disagreeing with "If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin", which deals with cause rather than effect, I can't see how the data can be a factor - only the interpretation!

there are hugely complex factors at play in the simple scenario presented; including the psychological effect of providing a distance club with more loft.  Some people will instinctively close it at address to look more powerful, some will dynamically close it through impact for the same reason etc etc

the only reality is that with the same swing it will deliver more spin in the vertical plane (let's agree to call it backspin!) which, alone, will straighten any shot because the actual curved flight is a result of the difference between the horizontal and vertical spin elements.

whilst many amateur golfers will strike the ball better with a more lofted club, there's no technical reason - in fact the overall quality of the strike will be negatively impacted by any additional spin loft (as already discussed in the thread).

trackman never lies - it can be programmed to mislead  but any data can easily be misinterpreted


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## Foxholer (Nov 21, 2014)

Wildrover said:



			I guess the trackman lies to me then.
		
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Absolutely not! It's the conclusions/explanations (about the causes) that are wrong!

Re-read the frst line of my 2nd paragraph!

 DM beat me to it again! :rofl:


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## Smiffy (Nov 21, 2014)

Despite the fact that I'm playing quite well at the moment, I am guilty of not hitting up on my drives.
Don't know how it's happened but it's crept in lately and I'm hitting everything with the driver much lower than I was during the summer. Have watched the Crossfield video and he talks a great deal of sense.
I'm not one for practicing but I'm going to be working on this over the next few weeks.


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## Piece (Nov 21, 2014)

duncan mackie said:



*trackman never lies* - it can be programmed to mislead  but any data can easily be misinterpreted
		
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Not entirely true. Some of its ball data is calculated not measured - the big one is spin axis. It can measure how fast the spin is, but can only calculate the spin direction from other ball data. More often or not it gets it right, but it can get it wrong and can't be as accurate as something that measures spin directly (GC2).


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## pendodave (Nov 21, 2014)

Having seen on flightscope that I was launching miles too low, I watched the coach's videos and headed out to the range with ball box in hand....

On the course yesterday and today I was hitting high bombs with a touch of draw. My mate couldn't believe the difference. If anything, one or two were too high, but that seems a minor inconvenience. Even the high ones were straight and out the middle. Not much run tho...

Proof of the crossfield maxim that it's the swing, not the shaft.

Thanks for the vids, coach. You have a great stock of pertinent advice.


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## the_coach (Nov 21, 2014)

pendodave said:



			Having seen on flightscope that I was launching miles too low, I watched the coach's videos and headed out to the range with ball box in hand....

On the course yesterday and today I was hitting high bombs with a touch of draw. My mate couldn't believe the difference. If anything, one or two were too high, but that seems a minor inconvenience. Even the high ones were straight and out the middle. Not much run tho...

Proof of the crossfield maxim that it's the swing, not the shaft.

Thanks for the vids, coach. You have a great stock of pertinent advice.
		
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good it helped you some. 
if when you do drill in practice or are out playing & the flight seems to be getting over high, just be aware that when coming into impact the back of the left hand isn't flexing upwards to look skywards, so make sure you are keeping the angle in back of right hand to right arm into the strike.


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