# Brexit. Knowing what you know now...



## Twire (Dec 21, 2016)

What way would you vote?


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## hors limite (Dec 21, 2016)

I would perhaps have been more interested in knowing who had changed their minds.


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## Lump (Dec 21, 2016)

Sorry but , what do we know now that we didn't know before the vote? Very Very little. Thread is perhaps a little early, until we hear what the government and nation leaders across the world want for sure then double guessing the vote is very pointless.


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## Twire (Dec 21, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I would perhaps have been more interested in knowing who had changed their minds.
		
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There you go.... Stick a poll up then.


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## USER1999 (Dec 21, 2016)

I would vote the same, 6 months odd is nothing in the grand scheme of things. We are not even out yet.


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## Twire (Dec 21, 2016)

Lump said:



			Sorry but , what do we know now that we didn't know before the vote? Very Very little. Thread is perhaps a little early, until we hear what the government and nation leaders across the world want for sure then double guessing the vote is very pointless.
		
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I think there's a bit more information out there now, maybe not about the policies, but certainly about the process. The bonus is that the UK hasn't imploded with the original vote as predicted  I'm just curious to see if the majority would still vote to leave.


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## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2016)

I voted Remain in June, but voted out now. Out does me no good in terms of work, and especially with the plan to retire to Spain shortly. However, I feel that all the twisting, fiddling and conniving some of the politicians are doing is very wrong at a fundamental level.

They voted to have a referendum. They abdicated their responsibility to the electorate, and the electorate made a choice. Never mind its this percentage or that percentage. The 'rules of the game' are very clear. A majority of those who cared enough to vote voted out.

If there's another vote, I will choose out to protect the very fundamental rights that make up our democracy. Argue the toss by all means but respect the choice.


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## bobmac (Dec 21, 2016)

I didn't vote last time so I'm not allowed to have an opinion


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2016)

I was influenced by the Scottish Government's recently published [25,000 word] plan for Brexit.:whoo:
Single Market or IR2.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I didn't vote last time so I'm not allowed to have an opinion
		
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Isn't that (at least equivalent to) 'Abstain'? So same or either of the 2 'active' opinions would surely be allowed.


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## adam6177 (Dec 21, 2016)

voted out then and would vote out every single time.


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2016)

Voted IN originally. Voted IN this time..

Some personal reasons, some idealistic reasons, less economic reasons...

I still don't fear the result like some do.. We are more than capable of succeeding in whatever we turn our hands to (as are people all over the World. It's not a "British" characteristic).. It has enabled me to find a deeper well of contempt for the majority of Politicians than I ever thought possible though... So not all negative...


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I voted Remain in June, but voted out now. Out does me no good in terms of work, and especially with the plan to retire to Spain shortly. However, I feel that all the twisting, fiddling and conniving some of the politicians are doing is very wrong at a fundamental level.

They voted to have a referendum. *They abdicated their responsibility to the electorate*, and the electorate made a choice. Never mind its this percentage or that percentage. The 'rules of the game' are very clear. A majority of those who cared enough to vote voted out.

If there's another vote, I will choose out to protect the very fundamental rights that make up our democracy. Argue the toss by all means but respect the choice.
		
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The highlighted phrase is actually ambiguous! Can you clarify whether you meant 'their responsibility', passing it - the responsibility - to the electorate' or was it 'their responsibility to the electorate' that they abdicated!

I actually believe they did the right thing in this case - allowing 'the electorate' to choose. Though there have obviously been some issues with the way they did that!

I have exactly the same view - at least assuming it was 'passed responsibility to the electorate'. I would vote Leave now purely because that was the result of the 'initial' referendum. Repeating a vote 'until the right result' is obtained is not my view of what our democracy is about!


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I would vote Leave now purely because that was the result of the 'initial' referendum. Repeating a vote 'until the right result' is obtained is not my view of what our democracy is about!
		
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I don't think he's asking if you want to change the result, merely if all the post vote rhetoric has changed your mind at all.. I know we think the GM forum is important, but I doubt the Brexit Committee are monitoring it to see if they should pull the plug on the whole thing..


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think he's asking if you want to change the result, merely if all the post vote rhetoric has changed your mind at all....
		
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That's the way I interpreted the OP too! I think I explained why i would vote differently to the way I did originally! 



bluewolf said:



			...I know we think the GM forum is important, but I doubt the Brexit Committee are monitoring it to see if they should pull the plug on the whole thing..
		
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That's 'equivalent' to believing that my vote is not going to make a difference, so not bothering! And that particular reason for not voting is something that I'm definitely anti!


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's the way I interpreted the OP too! I think I explained why i would vote differently to the way I did originally!
		
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i was about to type a mid length response that highlighted the inaccuracies in your statement, but then I remembered that I don't actually care. I also don't want to enter into a pointless discussion, solely focused on the minutiae of the English language and it's interpretation. You do know how to suck the life out of just about anything.


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## Twire (Dec 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			You do know how to suck the life out of just about anything.
		
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Was just about to ask him not to do this to another thread


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think he's asking if you want to change the result, merely if all the post vote rhetoric has changed your mind at all.. I know we think the GM forum is important, but I doubt the Brexit Committee are monitoring it to see if they should pull the plug on the whole thing..
		
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I thought I heard David Davies quoting this forum only the other day.............


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I thought I heard David Davies quoting this forum only the other day.............

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No ........he said it was not diverse enough........stuffed with middle aged, middle class, white males.


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## chrisd (Dec 21, 2016)

I voted out last time and would again. This time as I've been enthralled by Dell's analysis of the referendum and just wonder how much more rubbish he can come up with


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			...I also don't want to enter into a pointless discussion, solely focused on the minutiae of the English language and it's interpretation...
		
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Good! 



Twire said:



			Was just about to ask him not to do this to another thread 

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'Oh No! Not another Brexit thread - and by a Mod too!' was an early thought!


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## Dasit (Dec 21, 2016)

Voted out then, voted out now.

Germany is a country in big trouble.

The EU is going to come crashing down when a far right parties start getting voted in.

Rather be out that sinking ship on our own terms instead of being dragged down with it.


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## delc (Dec 21, 2016)

I voted to Remain on 23rd June and I would still vote Remain now!


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 21, 2016)

Voted in, still in. Haven't heard anything to make me change my mind, quite the reverse in fact. Still think it's a huge mistake and that we're just embarrassing ourselves now.


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## Crow (Dec 21, 2016)

In then, in now.

I worry about what will happen to Europe in the coming years and think that our vote to leave has only strengthened the position of some, to me, unsavoury political parties across Europe and weakened it as a whole.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Voted in, still in. Haven't heard anything to make me change my mind, quite the reverse in fact. Still think it's a huge mistake and that we're just embarrassing ourselves now.
		
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As above


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## delc (Dec 21, 2016)

Crow said:



			In then, in now.

I worry about what will happen to Europe in the coming years and think that our vote to leave has only strengthened the position of some, to me, unsavoury political parties across Europe and weakened it as a whole.
		
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Exactly right! Both the UK and the EU would be stronger with us staying in.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Voted in, still in. Haven't heard anything to make me change my mind, quite the reverse in fact. Still think it's a huge mistake and that we're just embarrassing ourselves now.
		
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A huge plus one from me. Brilliantly summed up


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## Fish (Dec 21, 2016)

Out before and still firmly out!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2016)

More chance of me eating sprouts than voting to stay in the EU.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 21, 2016)

Out then and out now.


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## drdel (Dec 21, 2016)

Out and now more firmly out as the truth and more details about the Italian and French finances surfaces: that's apart from Greece, Portugal and Spain's economic woes.

The UK still cannot afford the rapidly rising cost of sustaining the other inefficient members. The UK continues to obey the EU rules and guidelines when other (e.g. Germany, France,  Italy etc.) don't bother unless it suits them.

Too many people in the UK have taken a UK centric and myopic view rather than look at how the other 26 and Brussels will cope on the global stage as the EU becomes more and more uncompetitive.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2016)

Voted in previously and would still vote in


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2016)

Bizarre stats at the moment with 51.72/48.28 split cf 51.9/48.1 actual referendum split - though reversed


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 21, 2016)

In/In. Still worried for the future of Europe.....something we are part of in or out of the EU. It matters, and we have unlocked the box.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2016)

Get the Hell out of it ASAP


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## palindromicbob (Dec 22, 2016)

delc said:



			I voted to Remain on 23rd June and I would still vote Remain now!
		
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What if out allowed for bigger holes .


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 22, 2016)

drdel said:



			Out and now more firmly out as the truth and more details about the Italian and French finances surfaces: that's apart from Greece, Portugal and Spain's economic woes.

The UK still cannot afford the rapidly rising cost of sustaining the other inefficient members. The UK continues to obey the EU rules and guidelines when other (e.g. Germany, France,  Italy etc.) don't bother unless it suits them.

Too many people in the UK have taken a UK centric and myopic view rather than look at how the other 26 and Brussels will cope on the global stage as the EU becomes more and more uncompetitive.
		
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This sums it up for me.


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2016)

So, after almost 3,000 posts on the subject, no-one has changed their mind


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2016)

bobmac said:



			So, after almost 3,000 posts on the subject, no-one has changed their mind 

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Which is quite refreshing to hear as we Leavers were accused of not understanding what we were voting for and if given an opportunity to vote again many would vote Remain.


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## Crazyface (Dec 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I voted Remain in June, but voted out now. Out does me no good in terms of work, and especially with the plan to retire to Spain shortly. However, I feel that all the twisting, fiddling and conniving some of the politicians are doing is very wrong at a fundamental level.

They voted to have a referendum. They abdicated their responsibility to the electorate, and the electorate made a choice. Never mind its this percentage or that percentage. The 'rules of the game' are very clear. A majority of those who cared enough to vote voted out.

If there's another vote, I will choose out to protect the very fundamental rights that make up our democracy. Argue the toss by all means but respect the choice.
		
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This post sums it all up. Well spoken Sir!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2016)

drdel said:



			Out and now more firmly out as the truth and more details about the Italian and French finances surfaces: that's apart from Greece, Portugal and Spain's economic woes.

The UK still cannot afford the rapidly rising cost of sustaining the other inefficient members. The UK continues to obey the EU rules and guidelines when other (e.g. Germany, France,  Italy etc.) don't bother unless it suits them.

Too many people in the UK have taken a UK centric and myopic view rather than look at how the other 26 and Brussels will cope on the global stage as the EU becomes more and more uncompetitive.
		
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Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not.  If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.  

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not.  If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.  

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.
		
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Whilst I agree with most of this, one thing immediately springs to mind. When an EU members economy fails we, as part of the EU, have to stump up not an insignificant sum as part of the bail out. 

We're paying a fortune as a nett contributor anyway, and the bail outs. At least outside of the EU we'd save the nett contributions and the bailout, which would go a long way to protecting our economy from an economy that has failed rather than being dragged down with a sinking ship.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Whilst I agree with most of this, one thing immediately springs to mind. When an EU members economy fails we, as part of the EU, have to stump up not an insignificant sum as part of the bail out. 

We're paying a fortune as a nett contributor anyway, and the bail outs. At least outside of the EU we'd save the nett contributions and the bailout, which would go a long way to protecting our economy from an economy that has failed rather than being dragged down with a sinking ship.
		
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Possibly. But the other argument is that it is in the interests of our economy to ensure that EU members economies do not fail.  And potentially the money we spend on bailing them out is worth it in terms of the long term continual success of our economy.  I agree the short term hit may not look so good, but it *may* provide long term value. 

I just feel IMHO that our economy is far to linked to the global economy nowadays, and no amount of money saved by not contributing the the EU (that is all going to the NHS anyway I understood) will prop us up in the event of a serious EU meltdown. Better to be in the tent etc etc.


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Possibly. But the other argument is that it is in the interests of our economy to ensure that EU members economies do not fail.  And potentially the money we spend on bailing them out is worth it in terms of the long term continual success of our economy.  I agree the short term hit may not look so good, but it *may* provide long term value. 

I just feel IMHO that our economy is far to linked to the global economy nowadays, and no amount of money saved by not contributing the the EU (that is all going to the NHS anyway I understood) will prop us up in the event of a serious EU meltdown. Better to be in the tent etc etc.
		
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We're linked to global economies but not in their tent. Best be out of a burning tent. TBH, I think any path is shades of grey. There is no right or wrong answer, only choices that have both positives and negatives.


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## drdel (Dec 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not.  If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.  

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.
		
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I'm afraid you're being myopic. We have more inward and external investment with the RoW. The EU is disparate and is paying the price for its Euro centric policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Which is quite refreshing to hear as we Leavers were accused of not understanding what we were voting for and if given an opportunity to vote again many would vote Remain.
		
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Unfortunately I have concerns that do not reduce the more I hear _Leavers _from the north of England (Sheffield up) tell us their #1 reason for voting so - that it was immigration.  And that is fair enough reason - but I think you have to then accept that immigration might not actually be reduced - and that the current issues that many of these voters associate with the number of immigrants currently in the UK are not going to go away by even stopping outright more arrivals - because we are not going to throw out any current immigrants.  And many of these (poorer) voters in poorer northern communities will not be happy.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2016)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid you're being myopic. We have more inward and external investment with the RoW. The EU is disparate and is paying the price for its Euro centric policies.
		
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You may be missing my point. I am not arguing about the level of trade we have, although we did export around 220 billion to the EU in 2015 which is a hefty chunk in anyone's language. And 53% of our imports came from the EU https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ which by my maths makes that bigger than the rest of the world. Plus EU countries make up half of our foreign direct investment https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/united-kingdom/foreign-investment 

Ut was more that global economies are intertwined and that coming out of the EU will practically do relatively little to shield us if European economies crash. Hobbit thought the money we save on contributions may make up for this, I'm not so sure.  But I am sure as hell not convinced with the argument of some Brexiters that we can not worry too much about trade with the EU as the rest of the world will pick up the slack., Especially in a world of increasing isolationism and nationalism.


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately I have concerns that do not reduce the more I hear _Leavers _from the north of England (Sheffield up) tell us their #1 reason for voting so - that it was immigration.  And that is fair enough reason - but I think you have to then accept that immigration might not actually be reduced - and that the current issues that many of these voters associate with the number of immigrants currently in the UK are not going to go away by even stopping outright more arrivals - because we are not going to throw out any current immigrants.  And many of these (poorer) voters in poorer northern communities will not be happy.
		
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Disappointing post Hogie.

The majority of northerners I've spoken to that voted out did so more because David Cameron was promoting Remain. Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain was seen as Leave. The north, in the main, doesn't trust nor vote Tory. Immigration wasn't spoken about by many people, but federalism and EU rule was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Disappointing post Hogie.

The majority of northerners I've spoken to that voted out did so more because David Cameron was promoting Remain. Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain was seen as Leave. The north, in the main, doesn't trust nor vote Tory. Immigration wasn't spoken about by many people, but federalism and EU rule was.
		
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I do hope that is the case and it wasn't immigration.  My observation was simply based on my experience of listening to what some northerners thought about Labour party prospects in the northern towns and cities.  And the conclusion was that it is not good as Labour were totally out of touch with the 'ordinary man' - specifically Labour did not appreciate or reflect that the most important thing for Northerners in the Referendum was immigration - it was their clear #1 issue.

I hope not. For there be demons.


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## bluewolf (Dec 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do hope that is the case and it wasn't immigration.  My observation was simply based on my experience of listening to what some northerners thought about Labour party prospects in the northern towns and cities.  And the conclusion was that it is not good as Labour were totally out of touch with the 'ordinary man' - specifically Labour did not appreciate or reflect that the most important thing for Northerners in the Referendum was immigration - it was their clear #1 issue.

I hope not. For there be demons.
		
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Wow, a little bit of listening and you've got us Northerners all worked out!! We're just not as cultured and independent minded as them there Southerners. It's all about those bloody foreigners for us, because we're too stupid to understand economics and sociology. 

I do hope you can stick around and do some missionary work with us savages.....


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## Fish (Dec 23, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Wow, a little bit of listening and you've got us Northerners all worked out!! We're just not as cultured and independent minded as them there Southerners. It's all about those bloody foreigners for us, because we're too stupid to understand economics and sociology. 

I do hope you can stick around and do some missionary work with us savages.....
		
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I hope the above is typed out ok for you, I could just about read your misspelt crumpled up note on the pigeon you sent down to me &#128540;


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## delc (Dec 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Which is quite refreshing to hear as we Leavers were accused of not understanding what we were voting for and if given an opportunity to vote again many would vote Remain.
		
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The demographics will have changed a bit by now though. Some of the old folk with a nostalgic wish to return to how things were in the 1940's and 50's will have died, and younger, more pro-EU people will have become eligible to vote. After what happened last time, the younger people might also realise the importance of actually turning out to vote! The fact that they didn't last time is probably why the Opinion Polls got it wrong.


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## chrisd (Dec 23, 2016)

delc said:



			The demographics will have changed a bit by now though. Some of the old folk with a nostalgic wish to return to how things were in the 1940's and 50's will have died, and younger, more pro-EU people will have become eligible to vote. After what happened last time, the younger people might also realise the importance of actually turning out to vote! The fact that they didn't last time is probably why the Opinion Polls got it wrong.
		
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I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !
		
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He does have a valid point Chris. There's been just ove 220,000 old people die off since the vote, and almost 300,000 youngsters become eligible to vote. And everyone knows that all 230,000 oldies voted out and all 300,000 youngsters will vote in. And its pretty obvious that a swing of 500,000 will overturn a majority of 1,300,000.


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## delc (Dec 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !
		
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The Leavers don't want another referendum because they might lose, for the reasons I gave.


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2016)

delc said:



			The Leavers don't want another referendum because they might lose, for the reasons I gave.
		
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Have you asked all of them?
Have you asked all those who voted to stay if they want another one.?
Really Del, it's time to leave this alone....
Your rantings and ravings are no going to change anything.
Half of the GM forum is virtually off limits for me down to the arguing about Brexit.
It is what it is, it will be what it will be.
Let the people who's job it is to sort it out, sort it out.
Once they've finished - that will be the time to start arguing......Again...


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## bluewolf (Dec 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			I hope the above is typed out ok for you, I could just about read your misspelt crumpled up note on the pigeon you sent down to me &#128540;
		
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Can you make sure you send Errol back please. I still have some Christmas cards to send.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 23, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Can you make sure you send Errol back please. I still have some Christmas cards to send. 

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Don't do it Fish, poor Errol will probably end up as the Christmas dinnerâ€¦â€¦


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			He does have a valid point Chris. There's been just ove 220,000 old people die off since the vote, and almost 300,000 youngsters become eligible to vote. And everyone knows that all 230,000 oldies voted out and all 300,000 youngsters will vote in. And its pretty obvious that a swing of 500,000 will overturn a majority of 1,300,000.

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Bri, you forgot to add in those who'd switch votes just to be rid of the Remainers' perpetual bloody whinging.


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## Dellboy (Dec 23, 2016)

Voted leave and would do the same, we need out now !!!


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## bluewolf (Dec 23, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Don't do it Fish, poor Errol will probably end up as the Christmas dinnerâ€¦â€¦ 

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Bloody hell, it's only Christmas!!! It's not like it's a Coronation Street Wedding :ears:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2016)

delc said:



			The Leavers don't want another referendum because they might lose, for the reasons I gave.
		
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Your reasons are irrelevant and simplistic., should we have a General Election every six months to reflect the demographics.  Take a look at the poll on this thread, it does not point to many people changing their minds to Remain.


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## delc (Dec 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your reasons are irrelevant and simplistic., should we have a General Election every six months to reflect the demographics.  Take a look at the poll on this thread, it does not point to many people changing their minds to Remain.
		
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Golfers tend to be older members of society. So do Leave voters!


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## delc (Dec 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your reasons are irrelevant and simplistic., should we have a General Election every six months to reflect the demographics.  Take a look at the poll on this thread, it does not point to many people changing their minds to Remain.
		
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We should have another vote or a General Election once we know what the terms of Brexit are. Maybe the EU will grant everything we ask for, but this seems fairly unlikely. So far the only non EU trade deal we have seems to be with Saudi Arabia for supplying them with arms to fight various Middle-Eastern wars with!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Golfers tend to be older members of society. So do Leave voters! 

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Thats because nobody asked me if I wanted to be part of the EU it's the older ones who have been shafted for forty years.
we voted for a common market not political and fiscal Union.
this is the first time we have been able to halt it and that's what we voted for.
most younger people could not be bothered to vote but now are blaming all the people who have paid for the EU for forty years through their taxes.


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## delc (Dec 23, 2016)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thats because nobody asked me if I wanted to be part of the EU it's the older ones who have been shafted for forty years.
we voted for a common market not political and fiscal Union.
this is the first time we have been able to halt it and that's what we voted for.
most younger people could not be bothered to vote but now are blaming all the people who have paid for the EU for forty years through their taxes.
		
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As far as I can remember, it was always intended to move towards a more political and economic union in Europe. A sort of United States of Europe if you like. Even Winston Churchill thought this was a good idea in the long term.


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2016)

delc said:



			As far as I can remember, it was always intended to move towards a more political and economic union in Europe. A sort of United States of Europe if you like. Even Winston Churchill thought this was a good idea in the long term.
		
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Alzheimer's? Have a read of the Treaty of Rome 1957, and then the have a read of the formation of the EU in 1993 under the Masstricht Treaty. The EEC wasn't fully integrated into the EU until 2009.


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2016)

I would still vote the same.


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2016)

At last Delc said something correct.  A fully federal Europe was always the plan.  The constant disguise as a trading cooperative tells me plenty!  

Churchill is a very interesting reference.  For each positive "pro Europe" speech, I can find another against Federalism.  I'd assumed his unity stance was more a function of post war reconciliation than anything else.  He was certain a parliamentarian who wouldn't have supported Presidents and Commissioners who don't stand for election!


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