# The double standards of sport.



## Blue in Munich (Jan 25, 2016)

Football, apparently, is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans, whilst rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen, and the governing body & fans of rugby waste no opportunity to point out the superiority of their sport, particularly in the morals department.

The hooligan John Terry was stripped of the England captaincy for touting his box and allegedly having an affair with a team mate's girlfriend.  The gentleman Dylan Hartley amasses a rap sheet including head butting, eye gouging, biting, verbally abusing a referee and calling him a cheat, elbowing and punching, and is awarded the England captaincy.

Can someone explain this one to me because I'm struggling to work it out?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2016)

The RFU are willing to allow Jones pick his own captain ? 

Or the England manager in football believes Terry was the wrong person to captain the England team ? 

The choice of Hartley is a strange one and IMO he shouldn't be captain because of the rap sheet you mentioned


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## User20205 (Jan 25, 2016)

I think that moral ship has sailed. I see no discernible moral difference between the sports now, just cosmetic cultural differences.

Should Hartley be captain, if Eddie Jones thinks he's the right man, yes. I also think JT was poorly treated in a football sense but wasn't it the Anton Ferdinand incident that finished him off?


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## Odvan (Jan 25, 2016)

Not into rugby at all, never have been but read this today.

Way i see it is that the manager believes this chap to be a super talent and the only way to curb his ways is to make him the leader and help him control his aggression via a huge responsibility. 

Basically, make or break time. It will go one way, or the other. 

Last chance saloon. Fair play to the manager. I reckon it'll work...


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## chrisd (Jan 25, 2016)

I don't think Terry should have lost the Captaincy, what happens in his private life should stay private (subject to certain rules ie criminal convictions etc).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 25, 2016)

Check out the stats for the Sports that have the most bans for drug issues.


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## User20205 (Jan 25, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Check out the stats for the Sports that have the most bans for drug issues.
		
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That says more about the testing regime and the attitude of the governing body tho


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 25, 2016)

therod said:



			That says more about the testing regime and the attitude of the governing body tho
		
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Many ways to interpret the data.


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## Tongo (Jan 26, 2016)

therod said:



*I think that moral ship has sailed*. I see no discernible moral difference between the sports now, just cosmetic cultural differences.

Should Hartley be captain, if Eddie Jones thinks he's the right man, yes. I also think JT was poorly treated in a football sense but wasn't it the Anton Ferdinand incident that finished him off?
		
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Indeed. And BiM forgot Rio Ferdinand, captain of England despite having missed drugs tests and having been done for drink driving.


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## User20205 (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Many ways to interpret the data.
		
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Absolutely. But how many positive tests did Russian athletes return or us postal service with lance Armstrong

Rugby seems to have a issue in pockets of rugby league and in Welsh amateur Union, at least they're testing and banning. 

I'm surprised there are not many in football either recreational or enhancing. With all the cash around the temptation must be there both ways. 
I bet they're all at it


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 26, 2016)

therod said:



			I'm surprised there are not many in football either recreational or enhancing. With all the cash around the temptation must be there both ways. 
I bet they're all at it 

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You jest, but it's a serious problem IMO. It wouldn't surprise me if it all comes out one day. IMO, look at Bale, Ronaldo and others when they moved to Spain, and how their physiques change. NOt only that, but there is too much money in football NOT to dope. You need players to recover quickly, get quicker etc.

And don't even get me started on Athletics, I believe so many (including the British) that are doping it's unreal. Usain Bold magically being quicker than everyone else who has been found to be doping? Doesn't convince me. British cycling team suddenly peaking and winning all the medals at a games? Can't put it down to "incremental gains". I may be overly pessimistic, but they're all at it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You jest, but it's a serious problem IMO. It wouldn't surprise me if it all comes out one day. IMO, look at Bale, Ronaldo and others when they moved to Spain, and how their physiques change. NOt only that, but there is too much money in football NOT to dope. You need players to recover quickly, get quicker etc.

And don't even get me started on Athletics, I believe so many (including the British) that are doping it's unreal. Usain Bold magically being quicker than everyone else who has been found to be doping? Doesn't convince me. British cycling team suddenly peaking and winning all the medals at a games? Can't put it down to "incremental gains". I may be overly pessimistic, but they're all at it.
		
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You might be 100% correct, but like you say that could be from a pessimistic point of view, I prefer to sit on the side lines when the mud gets thrown at football players when sportsmen from other disciplines get caught out, I think they call it deflection.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You jest, but it's a serious problem IMO. It wouldn't surprise me if it all comes out one day. IMO, look at Bale, Ronaldo and others when they moved to Spain, and how their physiques change. NOt only that, but there is too much money in football NOT to dope. You need players to recover quickly, get quicker etc.

And don't even get me started on Athletics, I believe so many (including the British) that are doping it's unreal. Usain Bold magically being quicker than everyone else who has been found to be doping? Doesn't convince me. British cycling team suddenly peaking and winning all the medals at a games? Can't put it down to "incremental gains". I may be overly pessimistic, but they're all at it.
		
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It is sad that actions of others make people question clean sportsmen

Bolt has been shown that his stride length is a massive reason he is quicker than anyone else has been and the guy has been tested to the 9th degree and his reactions to Gatlin tell a story 

British Cycling quietly improved as each Olympics went by - watching programs on them they gave a sample every single day but the amount of work they put in js unreal - it's hard work and talent that got them to where they are. 

Football I have no doubt there is people who have taken some sort of performance enhancing and footballers have been caught but I would be surprised if the top guys do anything like it because they have so much to lose


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is sad that actions of others make people question clean sportsmen *I agree, it is sad but that's how I feel *

Bolt has been shown that his stride length is a massive reason he is quicker than anyone else has been and the guy has been tested to the 9th degree and his reactions to Gatlin tell a story *Reaction doesn't tell any story unfortunately. I don't personally believe he is clean, no matter how much testing has occured. It could just as easily mean whatever he is on is too new for testing. I just can't believe that that he is SO much quicker than the fastest clean person, stride length or not*

British Cycling quietly improved as each Olympics went by - watching programs on them they gave a sample every single day but the amount of work they put in js unreal - it's hard work and talent that got them to where they are. *That almost implies other teams don't put in hard work or talent? Unfortunately with the history of cycling, for a team to dominate like they have (and I include Sky in this), there are a lot of question marks. Many many unexplained stories out there about the cycling team.* 

Football I have no doubt there is people who have taken some sort of performance enhancing and footballers have been caught but I would be surprised if the top guys do anything like it because they have so much to lose *I would argue the top guys are the ones with themost to gain. Why wouldn't they, if their lesser colleagues do? As before, i think there is too much money in football not to. Drugs testing in football is famously bad!*

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Quoted as above


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## pokerjoke (Jan 26, 2016)

Is it double standards in sports or double standard with individuals.

Some people turn a blind eye to all that is wrong and put people back on a pedestal.

Look at someone like Suarez and all his wrong doings,there's always someone willing to take him on because of his ability.

Look at Armstrong some will say what he was doing was ok because they were all doing it.

Look at Gatlin a proven cheat but once again given the opportunity to earn large amounts of money and compete for gold medals.

The sad thing is there are many out there that are doing it clean and many that are squeeky clean that deserve recognition but probably wont get it due to all the wrong doings of others and until it becomes zero tolerance it will continue.

Its funny but zero tolerance has been around for 20 years that I can remember but it seems there's no such thing in some sports.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Quoted as above
		
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To dismiss people's talents as being explained by drugs is a bit more than sad

Bolts reason for being quicker than others has been proven to be down to the way he is built and that stride length - that's factually been proven. 

Which unexplained stories about the British Cycling team ? - they take samples every day , every single one of them. Why can't people just be better than others - better run team with a better work ethic and more talented cyclists 

So do you believe all people that win in sport are drug enhanced ? Spieth ? McIlroy for example ? In fact pick any sport where someone has won ?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Quoted as above
		
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The British Olympic Cycling success was basically down the the fact they had a shed load of money from the national lottery (way more than any opposition teams), a relatively small number of credible opposing teams to beat and a visionary leader in Brailsford who knew what to do with it.  They have done all they can to prove they are not doping, releasing blood passports, explaining how they used the technology to improve, showed how they used new materials, showed how they were able to shave times off here and there. 

Success in sport can come from doping and it is naive to think that does not go on.  But in any sport there have always been teams or individuals that dominate over a period of time as they have the natural talent combined with working harder, training more effectively, increasingly now more money and have a coach, team leader or manager that can get the most out of them. And that is how I believe the British cycling team have done it.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To dismiss people's talents as being explained by drugs is a bit more than sad

Bolts reason for being quicker than others has been proven to be down to the way he is built and that stride length - that's factually been proven. 

Which unexplained stories about the British Cycling team ? - they take samples every day , every single one of them. Why can't people just be better than others - better run team with a better work ethic and more talented cyclists 

So do you believe all people that win in sport are drug enhanced ? Spieth ? McIlroy for example ? In fact pick any sport where someone has won ?
		
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I agree 

If everyone who was winning was a suspected cheat we might as well stop watching sport right now.

Someone has to be the fastest,strongest etc why does that mean cheating.

Its hard for someone like Froome who I believe to be 100% clean to win races then have to come out after and confirm he's clean all because what has been done in the past.
That really is the crux of the matter people looking back at history and tarnishing everyone with the same brush.
Yes its going on by a small percentage in all sports but they will be caught eventually.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I agree 

If everyone who was winning was a suspected cheat we might as well stop watching sport right now.

Someone has to be the fastest,strongest etc why does that mean cheating.

Its hard for someone like Froome who I believe to be 100% clean to win races then have to come out after and confirm he's clean all because what has been done in the past.
That really is the crux of the matter people looking back at history and tarnishing everyone with the same brush.
Yes its going on by a small percentage in all sports but they will be caught eventually.
		
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And me, agree too,

I'm not ignorant enough to believe no top Footballer has ever tried drugs and not been caught, but it's very easy to throw the mud and hope it sticks, The FA/UEFA/FIFA all claim to be very stringent with random testing both at league and international level, Footballers were randomly tested after every game at the World Cup in Brazil and no one was found cheating, what the cynic then does is blame the testing procedures.

The top teams employee top people to ensure the players are kept at a peak, the kit and equipment for this is second to none, watched a programme the other day were Leicester literally force there players in to a fancy walk in fridge after games to aid recovery.


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## evahakool (Jan 26, 2016)

In 2016 Chelsea sacked a steward for calling Fabregas a snake, 2012 they didn't sack John Terry for calling Anton Ferdinand something  far worse, and I can't repeat on here, there excuse " Chelsea appreciates and supports John Terry's full apology for the language he used" 

Now that's double standards of the highest order.


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## Tongo (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			You might be 100% correct, but like you say that could be from a pessimistic point of view, I prefer to sit on the side lines when the mud gets thrown at football players when sportsmen from other disciplines get caught out, I think they call it deflection. 

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Why do people expect that football, with such a corrupt head organisation, is clean further down the tree? 

Just because footballers haven't been caught doesn't mean they aren't cheating. There also has to be the appetite to weed out the cheats and the inevitable fall out and damage to a sport. Look at the flak cycling has taken. Sometimes its easier to sweep things under the carpet and pretend they are not happening.


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

evahakool said:



			In 2016 Chelsea sacked a steward for calling Fabregas a snake, 2012 they didn't sack John Terry for calling Anton Ferdinand something  far worse, and I can't repeat on here, there excuse " Chelsea appreciates and supports John Terry's full apology for the language he used" 

Now that's double standards of the highest order.
		
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I was just waiting for this....

JT didn't apologize, he refused to as he was acquitted in a court of law, only the FA charged him through their Kangaroo court, why should he apologise when he was found not guilty, wouldn't that then be an admission of guilt?

So, no double standards of any order....

Makes me laugh in this place at times, always the usual suspects from, well not even rival clubs having a pop :rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			I was just waiting for this....

JT didn't apologize, he refused to as he was acquitted in a court of law, only the FA charged him through their Kangaroo court, why should he apologise when he was found not guilty, wouldn't that then be an admission of guilt?

So, no double standards of any order....

Makes me laugh in this place at times, always the usual suspects from, well not even rival clubs having a pop :rofl:
		
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-says-sorry-racist-abuse-Anton-Ferdinand.html


Terry accepted the FA charge and apologised for language he used


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-says-sorry-racist-abuse-Anton-Ferdinand.html


Terry accepted the FA charge and apologised for language he used
		
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He was told to do that and it was as good as written for him, he wanted to stand his ground but the club pressurised him even though he was fully acquitted in court.

If people want to start putting pictures up of old historic problems with fans and raising stuff like this,well I'll take the gloves off and start putting stuff up also about their beloved clubs, it won't be pretty and will get damn right ugly methinks as compared to some were pretty much angels, every club has situations like these, this is a pathetic comparison but not surprised it has been highlighted, it was just a matter of time as I was watching the way the thread was going.

As I say, usual suspects looking for a rise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			He was told to do that and it was as good as written for him, he wanted to stand his ground but the club pressurised him even though he was fully acquitted in court.

If people want to start putting pictures up of old historic problems with fans and raising stuff like this,well I'll take the gloves off and start putting stuff up also about their beloved clubs, it won't be pretty and will get damn right ugly methinks as compared to some were pretty much angels, every club has situations like these, this is a pathetic comparison but not surprised it has been highlighted, it was just a matter of time as I was watching the way the thread was going.

As I say, usual suspects looking for a rise.
		
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Umm a Chelsea fan started the thread and really can't see what the issue is with discussing situations that have happened in the past that has relevance to the subject ?

Terry clearly apologised and the club also punished him as did the FA. Not sure where the reaction has come from ?


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm a Chelsea fan started the thread and really can't see what the issue is with discussing situations that have happened in the past that has relevance to the subject ?

Terry clearly apologised and the club also punished him as did the FA. Not sure where the reaction has come from ?
		
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:blah: :blah: :blah:


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Football, apparently, is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans, whilst rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen, and the governing body & fans of rugby waste no opportunity to point out the superiority of their sport, particularly in the morals department.

The hooligan John Terry was stripped of the England captaincy for touting his box and allegedly having an affair with a team mate's girlfriend.  The gentleman Dylan Hartley amasses a rap sheet including head butting, eye gouging, biting, verbally abusing a referee and calling him a cheat, elbowing and punching, and is awarded the England captaincy.

Can someone explain this one to me because I'm struggling to work it out?
		
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Ignoring all the drugs in sport, personal opinions on the people involved etc. I think the difference in the 2 sports going their different routes with regards to the captaincy, is simply that they have such different media profiles, and as a result the majority of the population won't know or care who Hartley is and what he's done. As such the media won't get involved as much and the decision will be left with the coaches, rather than the governing body pandering to the ill-informed, quick to judge (probably already decided based on personal dislike or club allegiance) masses, like they did with the JT situation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

JamesR said:



			Ignoring all the drugs in sport, personal opinions on the people involved etc. I think the difference in the 2 sports going their different routes with regards to the captaincy, is simply that they have such different media profiles, and as a result the majority of the population won't know or care who Hartley is and what he's done. As such the media won't get involved as much and the decision will be left with the coaches, rather than the governing body pandering to the ill-informed, quick to judge (probably already decided based on personal dislike or club allegiance) masses, like they did with the JT situation.
		
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Media are massively influencial within football - popularity of the sport helps and they know the power they have 

A captain within a sports team is supposed to be a role model both on and off the pitch 

Terry has shown himself to be neither at times - especially of the field despite his play clearly showing himself to be captain material but I think a lot of players lost a lot of respect for him over the Bridge and Ferdinand incidents 

Hartley is no different IMO - has shown a lack of disrespect towards his oppo and also the ref - he has spent a year banned 

But I believe somehow that Hartley still has the respect of the players in the England squad - if he didn't I think Jones wouldn't have given him the job


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

JamesR said:



			Ignoring all the drugs in sport, personal opinions on the people involved etc. I think the difference in the 2 sports going their different routes with regards to the captaincy, is simply that they have such different media profiles, and as a result the majority of the population won't know or care who Hartley is and what he's done. As such the media won't get involved as much and the decision will be left with the coaches, rather than the governing body pandering to the ill-informed, quick to judge (probably already decided based on personal dislike or club allegiance) masses, like they did with the JT situation.
		
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I agree :thup:


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Media are massively influencial within football - popularity of the sport helps and they know the power they have 

A captain within a sports team is supposed to be a role model both on and off the pitch 

Terry has shown himself to be neither at times - especially of the field despite his play clearly showing himself to be captain material but I think a lot of players lost a lot of respect for him over the Bridge and Ferdinand incidents 

Hartley is no different IMO - has shown a lack of disrespect towards his oppo and also the ref - he has spent a year banned 

But I believe somehow that Hartley still has the respect of the players in the England squad - if he didn't I think Jones wouldn't have given him the job
		
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Why wasn't Gerrard stripped of his captaincy based on role models on and off the pitch for fighting (or assault as I saw it) in a Southport bar?

This was clever as well wasn't it, I wonder how many kids asked their parents what he was doing, not once but twice, deliberate and right in front of the away fans!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			Why wasn't Gerrard stripped of his captaincy based on role models on and off the pitch for fighting (or assault as I saw it) in a Southport bar?
		
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Because the club didn't seem fit to strip him of it as no doubt they felt he still had the support of the players




			This was clever as well wasn't it, I wonder how many kids asked their parents what he was doing, not once but twice, deliberate and right in front of the away fans!

View attachment 18246

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Fowler was accused of being a cocaine sniffer constantly as well as being abused in the town - he scored in the Derby and celebrated in a way to shove the taunts back at them - it was a stupid thing to do and he was punished 

I don't recall anyone saying either of them are saints or excusing either of their actions

But is that the defence of Terry actions ? Bringing up other players actions ?


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2016)

Personally I don't think the captain has to be a role model. Their job is to lead the team to victory.
Clubs often end up making players with past misdemeanors captains - Tony Adams, Wayne Rooney, John Terry, Vinny Jones, Eric Cantona - the leadership role can actually be what makes them better players.

It's a point I've made before about all sportsmen & women, they are there to do a job and that is all. Parents should be the role models, not sportsmen or soap stars or musicians.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

JamesR said:



			Personally I don't think the captain has to be a role model. Their job is to lead the team to victory.
Clubs often end up making players with past misdemeanors captains - Tony Adams, Wayne Rooney, John Terry, Vinny Jones, Eric Cantona - the leadership role can actually be what makes them better players.

It's a point I've made before about all sportsmen & women, they are there to do a job and that is all. Parents should be the role models, not sportsmen or soap stars or musicians.
		
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I don't think you are far wrong if sport was just about what happens on the pitch 

But unfortunately it now extends of the field and public image is very big for clubs - especially when the club attempts to market itself across the globe 

Clubs want not just the captain but all their players to be role models and people to look up too - social media interaction is a perfect example


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2016)

I think that there is a degree of difference between the situations being described here. 

For anyone who has played in the front row, you will know what a full on and uncompromising position it is to play. I am in no way excusing Hartley for any of his previous actions but it is very easy in a full contact and aggressive sport like rugby to get the red mist and do something stupid and rash.

As for the abusing the ref, he was a pillock but it was not hurling abuse at the top of his voice, it was a comment when walking away and it is debateable whether it was aimed at the ref or the player, though he was found guilty so that may be the end of that for some people. 

Part of the difference between the sports is the way that these issues have been dealt with. These have resulted in over a year out of the game as opposed to the shorter bans imposed by football. Rugby may have issues with foul play but they do deal with them sternly.

Will he be the right man to captain England, honest answer is that I have no idea but what I do know is that when I played rugby you wanted a man who led from the front and got stuck in and Hartley will do that. Hopefully the added responsibility will help him think twice about on pitch behaviour.

Many of the other instances mentioned relate to off pitch behaviour and, as far as I am aware, this is not something that Hartley has ever had an issue with. From what I hear from the supporters is that he is actually a thoroughly nice and well spoken chap off the field with plenty of time for supporters, kids etc when he is out and about.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			I think that there is a degree of difference between the situations being described here. 

For anyone who has played in the front row, you will know what a full on and uncompromising position it is to play. I am in no way excusing Hartley for any of his previous actions but it is very easy in a full contact and aggressive sport like rugby to get the red mist and do something stupid and rash.

As for the abusing the ref, he was a pillock but it was not hurling abuse at the top of his voice, it was a comment when walking away and it is debateable whether it was aimed at the ref or the player, though he was found guilty so that may be the end of that for some people. 

Part of the difference between the sports is the way that these issues have been dealt with. These have resulted in over a year out of the game as opposed to the shorter bans imposed by football. Rugby may have issues with foul play but they do deal with them sternly.

Will he be the right man to captain England, honest answer is that I have no idea but what I do know is that when I played rugby you wanted a man who led from the front and got stuck in and Hartley will do that. Hopefully the added responsibility will help him think twice about on pitch behaviour.

Many of the other instances mentioned relate to off pitch behaviour and, as far as I am aware, this is not something that Hartley has ever had an issue with. From what I hear from the supporters is that he is actually a thoroughly nice and well spoken chap off the field with plenty of time for supporters, kids etc when he is out and about.
		
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Think the only off the field episode with Hartley was the pub night out in NZ during the WC with the "dwarf throwing contest" where a few players were pictured a bit worse for wear


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			He was told to do that and it was as good as written for him, he wanted to stand his ground but the club pressurised him even though he was fully acquitted in court.

If people want to start putting pictures up of old historic problems with fans and raising stuff like this,well I'll take the gloves off and start putting stuff up also about their beloved clubs, it won't be pretty and will get damn right ugly methinks as compared to some were pretty much angels, every club has situations like these, this is a pathetic comparison but not surprised it has been highlighted, it was just a matter of time as I was watching the way the thread was going.

*As I say, usual suspects looking for a rise*.
		
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Which they got.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is sad that actions of others make people question clean sportsmen

Bolt has been shown that his stride length is a massive reason he is quicker than anyone else has been and the guy has been tested to the 9th degree and his reactions to Gatlin tell a story 

British Cycling quietly improved as each Olympics went by - watching programs on them they gave a sample every single day but the amount of work they put in js unreal - it's hard work and talent that got them to where they are. 

Football I have no doubt there is people who have taken some sort of performance enhancing and footballers have been caught but I would be surprised if the top guys do anything like it because they have so much to lose
		
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With regards to Bolts reactions to Gatlin I seem to remember Carl Lewis having the same reactions to Ben Johnstone. Womder whatever happened to Lewis?


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the only off the field episode with Hartley was the pub night out in NZ during the WC with the "dwarf throwing contest" where a few players were pictured a bit worse for wear
		
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He was there but very much in the background. Mike Brown was by all accounts the main problem on that tour. 

Worse for wear goes with the territory. Will always remember Gareth Chillcotts story about his first Bath tour where he was hammering on the door demanding to be let in out of the rain for someone to point out that he had passed out in the shower fully clothed.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To dismiss people's talents as being explained by drugs is a bit more than sad

Bolts reason for being quicker than others has been proven to be down to the way he is built and that stride length - that's factually been proven. 

Which unexplained stories about the British Cycling team ? - they take samples every day , every single one of them. Why can't people just be better than others - better run team with a better work ethic and more talented cyclists 

So do you believe all people that win in sport are drug enhanced ? Spieth ? McIlroy for example ? In fact pick any sport where someone has won ?
		
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Bolt may very well be built differently to everyone else doing the 100m or 200m. Lance Armstrong was proved to have a lung capacity that was super human. That's why he was winning everything. Wonder what happened to him?

Face it, I'm afraid i think they're all at it. They just haven't been caught yet.


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## Fish (Jan 26, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Which they got. 

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Yeah I know, need to stick more of them and definitely 1 of them back on ignore :smirk:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			With regards to Bolts reactions to Gatlin I seem to remember Carl Lewis having the same reactions to Ben Johnstone. Womder whatever happened to Lewis?
		
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Well he retired as he got too old to race ?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well he retired as he got too old to race ?
		
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I assume you're deliberately missing the point....

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			Bolt may very well be built differently to everyone else doing the 100m or 200m. Lance Armstrong was proved to have a lung capacity that was super human. That's why he was winning everything. Wonder what happened to him?

Face it, I'm afraid i think they're all at it. They just haven't been caught yet.
		
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So you can't prove they are all at it whilst they can continue to prove their innocence :thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Why do people expect that football, with such a corrupt head organisation, is clean further down the tree? 

Just because footballers haven't been caught doesn't mean they aren't cheating. There also has to be the appetite to weed out the cheats and the inevitable fall out and damage to a sport. Look at the flak cycling has taken. Sometimes its easier to sweep things under the carpet and pretend they are not happening.
		
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Still a cynical outlook, in this day and age even a hint a top footballer was into drugs or was being covered up the media would not rest, but once again we defend the Rugby cheats by saying they are thoroughlly nice chaps and a good egg!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Still a cynical outlook, in this day and age even a hint a top footballer was into drugs or was being covered up the media would not rest, but once again we defend the Rugby cheats by saying they are thoroughlly nice chaps and a good egg!
		
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His post wasn't defending the Rugby players? I would fully expect a number of them are into it, have you seen the body shapes/speed/etc that they have nowadays?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I assume you're deliberately missing the point....

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

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Not deliberately missing anything 

Lewis was found to be taking herbal supplements ( from an over the counter remedy ) which put him over the levels but not actually performance enhancing but some believed ( not proved ) that they could have been used to cover up anabolic steroid abuse ( as I believe it states in the article ) - believe the levels of the substances can be caused by cold remedies which is why that level is now increased. 

Again no proof ever that Lewis took drugs to enhance his performance and also what happened with Lewis doesn't mean Bolt is guilty of anything


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## Stuart_C (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			Why wasn't Gerrard stripped of his captaincy based on role models on and off the pitch for fighting (or assault as I saw it) in a Southport bar?

This was clever as well wasn't it, I wonder how many kids asked their parents what he was doing, not once but twice, deliberate and right in front of the away fans!

View attachment 18246

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Gerrard was found Not Guilty by a jury. You're not suggesting  that punishing a innocent person is right are you?

Fowler was eating grass, rigobert song taught him it, you know what them French/Africans can be like


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## evahakool (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			I was just waiting for this....

JT didn't apologize, he refused to as he was acquitted in a court of law, only the FA charged him through their Kangaroo court, why should he apologise when he was found not guilty, wouldn't that then be an admission of guilt?

So, no double standards of any order....

Makes me laugh in this place at times, always the usual suspects from, well not even rival clubs having a pop :rofl:
		
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It was my understanding  that Terry was disciplined privetly by Chelsea, are you saying that Chelsea didn't issue that statement?


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Still a cynical outlook, in this day and age even a hint a top footballer was into drugs or was being covered up the media would not rest, but once again we defend the Rugby cheats by saying they are thoroughlly nice chaps and a good egg!
		
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Bit OTT there. Many of the offences that we are talking about here are the equivalent of an bad tackle or going into a challenge with an elbow. They may sound more aggressive but in a full contact sport these things happen. They are fouls, they are dealt with and bans are imposed. Aside from the most extreme situations you would not prohibit a footballer from captaining a team because he had got a few red cards. 

As for the abusing the ref, worse is heard from footballers at every debatable decision. He said the words '***** cheat' as he walked away. Not that loud but heard by the ref. Was he referring to the ref or the player is debateable but he was found guilty and the sport dealt with it admirably and sternly with a substantial ban. 

No coverups that I am aware of. No incidents that have not been dealt with quickly and incisively and no incident that has gone without substantial punishment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Bit OTT there. Many of the offences that we are talking about here are the equivalent of an bad tackle or going into a challenge with an elbow. They may sound more aggressive but in a full contact sport these things happen. They are fouls, they are dealt with and bans are imposed. Aside from the most extreme situations you would not prohibit a footballer from captaining a team because he had got a few red cards. 

As for the abusing the ref, worse is heard from footballers at every debatable decision. He said the words '***** cheat' as he walked away. Not that loud but heard by the ref. Was he referring to the ref or the player is debateable but he was found guilty and the sport dealt with it admirably and sternly with a substantial ban. 

No coverups that I am aware of. No incidents that have not been dealt with quickly and incisively and no incident that has gone without substantial punishment.
		
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As the thread has developed the subject has gone wider and I am talking in general, no more ott than people saying the drug cheats in football just haven't been caught, whether we like it or not there has been cheating in Rugby......bloodgate?


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			As the thread has developed the subject has gone wider and I am talking in general, no more ott than people saying the drug cheats in football just haven't been caught, whether we like it or not there has been cheating in Rugby......bloodgate?
		
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Totally agree and the person involved was banned from involvement in all rugby activities for a substantial period of time. As with any sport, there will be instances and judgement can only be passed on how the authorities deal with it. 

I am more dubious about drug cheats at the highest level of football. The sport is just too high profile to risk it and, in any event, as it is an Olympic sport then is it not signed up to a substantial level of drug testing. OK, the missed drug test incident with Ferdinand does not help but I would have thought that any issues with football, as with a few cases in rugby, are far more likely to be recreational than performance enhancing.


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## evahakool (Jan 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			He was told to do that and it was as good as written for him, he wanted to stand his ground but the club pressurised him even though he was fully acquitted in court.

If people want to start putting pictures up of old historic problems with fans and raising stuff like this,well I'll take the gloves off and start putting stuff up also about their beloved clubs, it won't be pretty and will get damn right ugly methinks as compared to some were pretty much angels, every club has situations like these, this is a pathetic comparison but not surprised it has been highlighted, it was just a matter of time as I was watching the way the thread was going.

As I say, usual suspects looking for a rise.
		
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If he was told to do this ,why didn't he refuse, keep his integrity and go to another club? I have no doubt the club drafted the statment for him.

Why did the club feel the need to discipline him  privetly and issue the statment ?

It was Chelsea that issued the statment accepting Terry's apology, so by doing this they must have thought he said something.

If that's the case they should have sacked him the same way they dealt with the steward.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Totally agree and the person involved was banned from involvement in all rugby activities for a substantial period of time. As with any sport, there will be instances and judgement can only be passed on how the authorities deal with it. 

I am more dubious about drug cheats at the highest level of football. The sport is just too high profile to risk it and, in any event, as it is an Olympic sport then is it not signed up to a substantial level of drug testing. OK, the missed drug test incident with Ferdinand does not help but I would have thought that any issues with football, as with a few cases in rugby, are far more likely to be recreational than performance enhancing.
		
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I'm just a glass is half full type, would rather err on the side of caution than to tar a whole sport with the same brush, human nature says they are out there in most sports, they just need to be caught.
I find it funny that some of the people quoted and used as reference are 10-20 years ago, that alone tells me it isn't rife.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Totally agree and the person involved was banned from involvement in all rugby activities for a substantial period of time. As with any sport, there will be instances and judgement can only be passed on how the authorities deal with it. 

I am more dubious about drug cheats at the highest level of football. The sport is just too high profile to risk it and, in any event, as it is an Olympic sport then is it not signed up to a substantial level of drug testing. OK, the missed drug test incident with Ferdinand does not help but I would have thought that any issues with football, as with a few cases in rugby, are far more likely to be recreational than performance enhancing.
		
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Rugby has shown that they are not afraid to deal strongly with issues that happen. 

I also agree in regards drug cheats at high level - just think it's too big a risk for them to use performance enhancing


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			I am more dubious about drug cheats at the highest level of football. The sport is just too high profile to risk it and, in any event, as it is an Olympic sport then is it not signed up to a substantial level of drug testing. OK, the missed drug test incident with Ferdinand does not help but I would have thought that any issues with football, as with a few cases in rugby, are far more likely to be recreational than performance enhancing.
		
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I'm sure there are players in most major leagues that have used drugs. It needs looking at. Fifa were corrupt and it concerns me that even if they'd found cases, they'd have swept some of it under the carpet. However I have to remain optimistic that it hasn't got a widespread problem and that the authorities follow the examples of cycling in particular and deal with it openly


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 26, 2016)

On a point of order
Can we avoid accusations/suspicions of drug taking naming specific individuals. This is a public Forum and there are defamation laws in place. GM would not want to be associated with such accusations

Thanks


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I'm sure there are players in most major leagues that have used drugs. It needs looking at. Fifa were corrupt and it concerns me that even if they'd found cases, they'd have swept some of it under the carpet. However I have to remain optimistic that it hasn't got a widespread problem and that the authorities follow the examples of cycling in particular and deal with it openly
		
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So because FIFA was corrupt you're sure there are players in most major leagues that have used drugs and it needs looking at and it concerns you that FIFA would have swept it under the carpet, so you have no evidence but you want this action taken, maybe it's clean and it's your perception that's incorrect, because once again it's throwing mud at football for no other reason than you're optimistic that it's not a widespread problem. 
Is there any evidence of any size of a problem?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So because FIFA was corrupt you're sure there are players in most major leagues that have used drugs and it needs looking at and it concerns you that FIFA would have swept it under the carpet, so you have no evidence but you want this action taken, maybe it's clean and it's your perception that's incorrect, because once again it's throwing mud at football for no other reason than you're optimistic that it's not a widespread problem. 
Is there any evidence of any size of a problem?
		
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When the likes of Wenger make a noise it's usually because they have something to say http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34869016


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			When the likes of Wenger make a noise it's usually because they have something to say http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34869016

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Did you read the article? He's moaning about the time it takes to do Urine tests and wants Blood tests introduced to speed the process up!
No were does he state he thinks there's an issue!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you read the article? He's moaning about the time it takes to do Urine tests and wants Blood tests introduced to speed the process up!
No were does he state he thinks there's an issue!
		
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Why increase the speed if there isn't a problem to be detected


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why increase the speed if there isn't a problem to be detected
		
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Unbelievable, because when they have to wait for over 2 hours for a player to provide a sample he's annoyed, this is when they have flights back to the UK and everyone is delayed waiting for someone to go to the toilet, a blood test takes minutes and is more accurate and doesn't matter if player is dehydrated from playing and can't go!!!!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Unbelievable, because when they have to wait for over 2 hours for a player to provide a sample he's annoyed, this is when they have flights back to the UK and everyone is delayed waiting for someone to go to the toilet, a blood test takes minutes and is more accurate and doesn't matter if player is dehydrated from playing and can't go!!!!!
		
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Whatever. I'll politely disagree with you and move along


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Whatever. I'll politely disagree with you and move along
		
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Post rubbish then can't defend it, next time you google can I suggest you read it, saves you being embarrassed&#128515;


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Post rubbish then can't defend it, next time you google can I suggest you read it, saves you being embarrassed&#128515;
		
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Suggest you simply use ignore if you don't like it rather than childish sniping. 

Another article with Wenger saying there may be a problem. Not a mention of any issues with delays travelling

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...otball-has-hidden-drugs-problem-34189075.html


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Suggest you simply use ignore if you don't like it rather than childish sniping. 

Another article with Wenger saying there may be a problem. Not a mention of any issues with delays travelling

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...otball-has-hidden-drugs-problem-34189075.html

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Rather than have a sensible debate from what you posted you have already stated you're moving along and then to say I'm sniping, I no longer wish to reply as you can't have it both ways. I'm out.


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