# People living rough



## patricks148 (Sep 23, 2016)

With Inverness being a tourist area with people wild camping on the green spaces around the town, prob where they shouldn't. there has also been a few migrant workers also living rough in tents. 

Theres always a few a about the canal and the old quarry. which i often pass while walking my dogs.

Anyway one tent which i assumed had just been left abandoned was found to have badly decomposed body inside this week. Ive been past this a fair few times and i have been having to put them both on leads when we do go close to it due to the smell, the last few times. I assumed the smell was human waste which is quite common with people sleeping rough.

can't believe ive been walking past a dead body for months and it can't have been just me!!!! 

pretty worrying


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 23, 2016)

Very sad, that anyone ends up dying along like that


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2016)

Was in Manchester last weekend and could not believe the amount of street beggars and people sleeping rough there were this time. Have seen the odd one or two over the years, but there were a lot this time.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Was in Manchester last weekend and could not believe the amount of street beggars and people sleeping rough there were this time. Have seen the odd one or two over the years, but there were a lot this time.
		
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Plenty in Reading on a daily basis especially around the station and the shopping centre


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			With Inverness being a tourist area with people wild camping on the green spaces around the town, prob where they shouldn't. there has also been a few migrant workers also living rough in tents. 

Theres always a few a about the canal and the old quarry. which i often pass while walking my dogs.

Anyway one tent which i assumed had just been left abandoned was found to have badly decomposed body inside this week. Ive been past this a fair few times and i have been having to put them both on leads when we do go close to it due to the smell, the last few times. *I assumed the smell was human waste which is quite common with people sleeping rough.

can't believe ive been walking past a dead body for months* and it can't have been just me!!!! 

pretty worrying
		
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I can't believe you can confuse the smell of a badly decomposing body with the smell of human waste.


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## virtuocity (Sep 24, 2016)

Disappointing that no community police or street outreach teams had made contact.


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## patricks148 (Sep 24, 2016)

Some of them are guys working, but there is also an element of tourists not wanting to pay to go in the couple of camp sites that are a stones trow away. 

Last time i walked though the islands  there were at least 3 separate groups camping all tourists. and there was human faeces in the bushes in several places.

have mentioned this to the council, they seem unconcerned.


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## patricks148 (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			I can't believe you can confuse the smell of a badly decomposing body with the smell of human waste. 

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how would i have known what a badly decomposing body smelt like???

The place smelt of Human ***** and we kept a good distance away as dogs always want to seek that out. lots of dog walkers go past


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			how would i have known what a badly decomposing body smelt like???

The place smelt of Human ***** and we kept a good distance away as dogs always want to seek that out. lots of dog walkers go past
		
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Well you should know what human waste smells like and a badly decomposing body smells nothing like that.  No similarity between the two at all, so how you can confuse the two is beyond me.


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## patricks148 (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well you should know what human waste smells like and a badly decomposing body smells nothing like that.  No similarity between the two at all, so how you can confuse the two is beyond me.
		
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well it stunk like feaces, but again how would i know what a dead body smelt like, if you had never smelt one??


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## Papas1982 (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well you should know what human waste smells like and a badly decomposing body smells nothing like that.  No similarity between the two at all, so how you can confuse the two is beyond me.
		
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Depends how close you are to the body. If there is human waste all over the place then that smell would be over powering. If you're given both in separate rooms yes there's a massive difference, but if there is one 20ft away and then 20 bushes surrounded by waste 5ft away. You wont smell the body in an open environment.


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## virtuocity (Sep 24, 2016)

The expertise of this forum's members knows no bounds.

"You should know what a dead body smells like" :rofl: FFS.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			The expertise of this forum's members knows no bounds.

"You should know what a dead body smells like" :rofl: FFS.
		
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Where exactly was that posted thenâ€¦â€¦â€¦..?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Where exactly was that posted thenâ€¦â€¦â€¦..?
		
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Post #5 and #9


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2016)

Missis T has just said she has smelled gangrenous flesh over the years but never a decomposing body. &#128577;


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Post #5 and #9
		
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Nope, that quote isn't in either of those.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nope, that quote isn't in either of those.
		
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Apart from a few constanants, vowels and capital letters missing, or in the wrong place. Plus the odd comma and full stop. And emotion.That's how I would of read it that we should know what a dead body smells like. That aside. Poor sod what a way to go.


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## bluewolf (Sep 24, 2016)

Shame...

To the tangent.. It's not how I read it.. More like - You know what human waste smells like, and it doesn't smell like that (it really doesn't)..


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2016)

As someone who sometimes has to work with rough sleepers my only request is if you see them and there begging instead of giving them any money (if you do), buy them a hot drink or a sarnie.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Shame...

To the tangent.. It's not how I read it.. More like - You know what human waste smells like, and it doesn't smell like that (it really doesn't)..
		
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Someone gets it.  Thank you.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nope, that quote isn't in either of those.
		
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Not a quote per-se , more the implication.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not a quote per-se , more the implication.
		
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I've made two comments.  The second one has been read exactly the way it was intended by another poster who appears to have the same knowledge of the subject as I do, knowledge the OP freely admits he is lacking.  If you, or others, have chosen to draw something more from those than was actually stated it says more about you , or them, than it does me, as does supporting a "quote" made up by another poster.  Goodnight.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			I've made two comments.  The second one has been read exactly the way it was intended by another poster who appears to have the same knowledge of the subject as I do, knowledge the OP freely admits he is lacking.  If you, or others, have chosen to draw something more from those than was actually stated it says more about you , or them, than it does me, as does supporting a "quote" made up by another poster.  Goodnight.
		
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Bit deep that!    All that was suggested is that some people don't understand what a decaying human body smells like.


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## bluewolf (Sep 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit deep that!    All that was suggested is that some people don't understand what a decaying human body smells like.
		
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Not like human waste.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 25, 2016)

Have to admit l don't know what a dead body smells like, nor for that matter what human faeces smells like in quantity. Pretty rank in either case i guess. So i assume that if i smelled something pretty rank in a location know for smelling rank, then I'd not draw any immediate unusual conclusions?

But on a lighter side (if there is such a thing when it comes to sleeping rough) we have a guy who runs a rowing boat operation on one of our lakes. He was trying to sell some old boats and took a potential buyer round the back to where they were all lined up - upside down, to stop them filling with rain. "There you go" says the seller " they are not a bad size". "Big enough to hide a body in" jokes the buyer. "Okey, dokey, out you come" says the seller continuing the joke and rapping on the side of a boat. To which a voice replies, "Alright, sorry, I'll be out in a minute." And out clambers a smart clean young bloke - in sense of being washed, clean shaved, clean clothes etc - who then apologises and explains he'd come down to London about a month before. He'd got a job but could not find anywhere he could afford to live and under the boat was the best  place he'd found so far.

Actually, when you think about it, apart from the surprise of finding him, there's sod all "light" about the story at all. All too bloody common around here that folk can't afford a proper place and all too easy for people to fall off the radar...


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## Hobbit (Sep 25, 2016)

I visited Canterbury about 20+yrs ago. A mid evening stroll around the city centre. At the time sleeping rough didn't seem that common oop north. I was gobsmacked at the amount of people settling down in shop doorways, and I must admit to feeling a bit threatened by the volume of begging.

For the 5th/6th richest economy we have some serious problems in this country. We're in serious danger of heading towards a USA-style of underclass.


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## IanM (Sep 25, 2016)

I've been working in Southampton this year, I was last working there 29 years ago.  One thing that is really noticeable is how many rough sleepers/folk begging there are in the city centre. Very sad to see.  Hard to know what to do too... I often buy sarnie/drink for folk I see...but there has to be a better solution


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Not like human waste.
		
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If you say so


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2016)

Regarding beggars.   I was in Cheltenham recently and there was a man begging in the Town Centre he looked absolutely pathetic sat on the floor wrapped in a blanket.   I went into a Starbucks over the road and bought a hot drink and a sandwich for him.   I noticed he just put it on the floor behind him and that there were a number of other drinks and food packages there.   It seems it was money he was after.    I believe there are a number of professional Beggars around that make a reasonable living from it.


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## patricks148 (Sep 26, 2016)

While down in Edinburgh last weekend i noticed at fair few people sleeping rough in Princes Street, pretty much every other doorway had someone sleeping in it. Also a a fair few beggars around During the day. 

Times have changed i know but when i was at University there some 30 years ago, you never saw a beggar or anyone sleeping roungh in the city centre.

But then saying that you only got Tourists for the Tattoo and the Festival back then, now the place is packed all year round


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2016)

There but for the grace of God go I...

In voicing our views on this we should not forget that we are all vulnerable, in one degree or another, to events that could lead us to the streets.  It may seem very unlikely, but for many who have ended up there it was very unlikely and not part of their life plan - but there they ended.

For that reason I will very often pop a few bob to someone on the streets without any thoughts of trying to discriminate between one and another - and I wish them well.  A few bob I do not miss - and goodwill is free.


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## Alex1975 (Sep 26, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			With Inverness being a tourist area with people wild camping on the green spaces around the town, prob where they shouldn't. there has also been a few migrant workers also living rough in tents. 

Theres always a few a about the canal and the old quarry. which i often pass while walking my dogs.

Anyway one tent which i assumed had just been left abandoned was found to have badly decomposed body inside this week. Ive been past this a fair few times and i have been having to put them both on leads when we do go close to it due to the smell, the last few times. I assumed the smell was human waste which is quite common with people sleeping rough.

can't believe ive been walking past a dead body for months and it can't have been just me!!!! 

pretty worrying
		
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Yep, that must be a strange, unsettling feeling.


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## stevelev (Sep 26, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well you should know what human waste smells like and a badly decomposing body smells nothing like that.  No similarity between the two at all, so how you can confuse the two is beyond me.
		
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Sorry I'm confused, should it be mandatory that every one knows the smells of a decomposing body?  

Oh thought not, what a silly presumption.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding beggars.   I was in Cheltenham recently and there was a man begging in the Town Centre he looked absolutely pathetic sat on the floor wrapped in a blanket.   I went into a Starbucks over the road and bought a hot drink and a sandwich for him.   I noticed he just put it on the floor behind him and that there were a number of other drinks and food packages there.   It seems it was money he was after.   * I believe there are a number of professional Beggars around that make a reasonable living from it.*

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There most certainly are - but as I would not be able to differentiate I do not try, and simply give a little to those I feel inclined towards.  If 20% of those I give to are 'professional beggars' - well they won't get rich from me - and my little might go a bit towards helping the other 80%.  I do not resent the 20% as that would affect my giving to the 80%.


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There most certainly are - but as I would not be able to differentiate I do not try, and simply give a little to those I feel inclined towards.  If 20% of those I give to are 'professional beggars' - well they won't get rich from me - and my little might go a bit towards helping the other 80%.  I do not resent the 20% as that would affect my giving to the 80%.
		
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I'm sure your kindness is appreciated but as I said before, outreach workers and those volunteers who work with rough sleepers would prefer you gave them a hot drink or/and food rather than money.  It leads to all kinds of problems.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm sure your kindness is appreciated but as I said before, outreach workers and those volunteers who work with rough sleepers would prefer you gave them a hot drink or/and food rather than money.  It leads to all kinds of problems.
		
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A bit like 'Dont feed the pigeons!'


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A bit like 'Dont feed the pigeons!'
		
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More to do with the fighting amongst rough sleepers when someone knows there is a bit of money around and the amount of substance and alcohol abuse that goes on.


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## patricks148 (Sep 27, 2016)

Its a tight line between being generous and being a mug.

the current Mrs148 and i were out in town one night last winter and there was a guy looking pretty miserable in  blanket off Church St ( very windy most of the time) she took pity on him and gave him Â£20 to get himself a bed for the night, as this is what he told her he needed to get in  Hostel. As soon as the cash was in his hand he was on a bike chained up nearby and off up the road, a bouncer came over from the pub over the road and said " he will be off to get drugs with that"


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## Hickory_Hacker (Sep 28, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			While down in Edinburgh last weekend i noticed at fair few people sleeping rough in Princes Street, pretty much every other doorway had someone sleeping in it. Also a a fair few beggars around During the day. 

Times have changed i know but when i was at University there some 30 years ago, you never saw a beggar or anyone sleeping roungh in the city centre.

But then saying that you only got Tourists for the Tattoo and the Festival back then, now the place is packed all year round
		
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Yes there are a few hobo's kicking around and it's about time that they were moved on, South is a better climate.


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## woody69 (Sep 29, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			Its a tight line between being generous and being a mug.

the current Mrs148 and i were out in town one night last winter and there was a guy looking pretty miserable in  blanket off Church St ( very windy most of the time) she took pity on him and gave him Â£20 to get himself a bed for the night, as this is what he told her he needed to get in  Hostel. As soon as the cash was in his hand he was on a bike chained up nearby and off up the road, a bouncer came over from the pub over the road and said " *he will be off to get drugs with that*"
		
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Meh, so what. If that is what get's him through a night on the street then so be it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2016)

woody69 said:



			Meh, so what. If that is what get's him through a night on the street then so be it.
		
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And I tend to take that view as well.  The alcoholic or drug addict often 'uses' to blank out reality and often that reality is very painful and difficult - their addiction often being the illness at the core of their issues and pain.  I'd rather they didn't use my few pennies in that way - but if that is what their desperate need is...and it's often very desperate and painful, then so be it.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 29, 2016)

woody69 said:



			Meh, so what. If that is what get's him through a night on the street then so be it.
		
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Because spending all available money on drugs, while helping him in the short term is significantly detrimental to any chance of getting off the street in the future.


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## patricks148 (Sep 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I tend to take that view as well.  The alcoholic or drug addict often 'uses' to blank out reality and often that reality is very painful and difficult - their addiction often being the illness at the core of their issues and pain.  I'd rather they didn't use my few pennies in that way - but if that is what their desperate need is...and it's often very desperate and painful, then so be it.
		
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Ok in that case.. a beggar in the street, sign saying need money for Drugs and one saying need a bed for the night, which would you give money to?


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## bobmac (Sep 29, 2016)

It might have been drug use that cost him his job, his marriage and his house and put him on the streets in the first place, not forgetting lining the pockets of the drug dealers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2016)

bobmac said:



			It might have been drug use that cost him his job, his marriage and his house and put him on the streets in the first place, not forgetting lining the pockets of the drug dealers.
		
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I completely understand your point and might feel the same - but we need to understand how a drug addict or alcoholic feels when his body and mind are screaming or he/she is in deep despair.

Besides - I have never seen anyone on the street advertise that they would use my little bit of help for drugs or alcohol - and so I do not know what I would do.  I do not attempt to discriminate on factors that I cannot determine.


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## patricks148 (Sep 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I completely understand your point and might feel the same - but we need to understand how a drug addict or alcoholic feels when his body and mind are screaming or he/she is in deep despair.

Besides - I have never seen anyone on the street advertise that they would use my little bit of help for drugs or alcohol - and so I do not know what I would do.  I do not attempt to discriminate on factors that I cannot determine.
		
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i didn't ask if you's seen that i ask what you would do?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			i didn't ask if you's seen that i ask what you would do?
		
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I don't know - probably give to both - and ask the alcoholic/drug addict why they needed to buy alcohol/drugs and see if I can help in any additional way.  If he said 'can you go and buy me a can of Super Brew please' I'd probably say no.


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## woody69 (Sep 30, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Because spending all available money on drugs, while helping him in the short term is significantly detrimental to any chance of getting off the street in the future.
		
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They make their choice, it is their prerogative. And besides, who are we to say he would automatically spend that money on drink and/or drugs? I've given food and money to beggars before


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## craigstardis1976 (Sep 30, 2016)

I have been homeless and was for a period of over a year. It was not drug or alcohol related and without wanting to give out my life story, I was the victim of a very bad crime and no-one would listen to me. finding the one person who would changed my life for me.

Anyway, my point is, if you want to help a homeless person, food, a drink, some socks, and a blanket as well as a toothbrush and toothpaste would have been extremely welcome. You can get all of this for under $10 and maybe include a couple of bucks so they can decide what to do with it. Practical help like that can make all the difference in the world. 

Craig


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## DRW (Oct 3, 2016)

Behind every homeless person, is a sad story.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 3, 2016)

Don't normally get seriously moved by the sight of homeless because of how common it is in big cities. I'll put change in as many as i possibly can if I don't need it and i'll always speak to them rather than just walk past.

This weekend however I was getting some cash out in Edinburgh and there was a lad sat to the side of the cash points (a few meters away) just sat there crying. 
This lad was about my age (23) which really hit home. I can't even condone how horrendous it must be to live on a street with nothing to your name and I wouldn't even know where to start to get myself out of that position.

I gave him a bit of change and stood and had a fag with him and a conversation. Chatted about football and Edinburgh and what not. 
Always think that just spending a couple of minutes with a homeless person or just having a small chat will make them feel 10x better than copper coins.


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## TonyN (Oct 3, 2016)

Couple of thoughts from me.

1st. Ive  dealt with more decomposed bodies than I care to rembember and actually, most of them smell like ****,  because thats always what they are lay in! 
But yes, decomposing bodies have a very unique smell (the smell of death) but unless you know it, its not something you would recognise.

And 2nd, anyone sleeping rough doesn't have to beg to survive. The homeless can be fed and watered adequately in most towns/ city's, especially the big ones. If they're begging, they're begging for drink or drugs (usually)
If you drop money in their hand, you may aswell drop a rock of crack, or a bottle of cider on their lap. You may feel good about yourself, but actually, your just making things worse.

And begging is an offence, don't encourage it.


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 3, 2016)

TonyN said:



			Couple of thoughts from me.

1st. Ive  dealt with more decomposed bodies than I care to rembember and actually, most of them smell like ****,  because thats always what they are lay in! 
But yes, decomposing bodies have a very unique smell (the smell of death) but unless you know it, its not something you would recognise.

And 2nd, anyone sleeping rough doesn't have to beg to survive. The homeless can be fed and watered adequately in most towns/ city's, especially the big ones. If they're begging, they're begging for drink or drugs (usually)
If you drop money in their hand, you may aswell drop a rock of crack, or a bottle of cider on their lap. You may feel good about yourself, but actually, your just making things worse.

And begging is an offence, don't encourage it.
		
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Having been there, I feel like I can speak with some authority on this subject. 

I never begged when I was homeless and my dog always ate before me. When I had a meal from a soup kitchen, I always shared my food with him. Perhaps because I had my dog, occasionally people would slip me a couple of dollars. 

You are wrong when you say you may as well drop a rock of crack or bottle of cider. When this happened, I got dog food for my dog and maybe can of coca-cola or a candy bar for myself. it was always welcome and I did not ever beg or use it for alcohol or drugs.

I deeply resent your implication that money given would be misused in that way. For some it would, for others it would not but to make that sweeping a generalization is not only wrong but is disrespectful to the homeless who do have some dignity and want to get on. I also used the money I was sometimes given to get a pair of socks when mine were soaked because of snow halfway up my shins and inadequate footwear and trousers.

When someone finally listened to me after being turned down by every government authority, stripped of my ID and every asset I had and surviving a winter on the streets in temperatures often below 10-20 degrees below freezing, I made the most of the opportunity and rebuilt my life from ground zero. The Vet was amazed my dog was kept in such good condition while I was down to 120 lbs in weight, (80 lbs less than normal.)

Yet of course, most homeless people are begging for drink and drugs money in your world...


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## TonyN (Oct 3, 2016)

I did say usually, by which I meant not always. (Not everyone is the same) but in my experience, 9 out of 10 do exactly what I said above. 

 I see it day in, day out. I deal with it day in, day out.


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 3, 2016)

TonyN said:



			I did say usually, by which I meant not always. (Not everyone is the same) but in my experience, 9 out of 10 do exactly what I said above. 

 I see it day in, day out. I deal with it day in, day out.
		
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That does not reflect my experience of being homeless. Maybe 60%. Usually the other 30-40% were there because of financial problems (maybe self inflicted, maybe not) previous criminal history or were the victims of crime themselves. 

If you were to make such a sweeping generalization against other groups of people, for example: "Middle-Class people usually spend their money on drinks or drugs" perhaps you would see how wrong you are. Certainly other people would be quick to point it out.


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## TonyN (Oct 3, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			That does not reflect my experience of being homeless. Maybe 60%. Usually the other 30-40% were there because of financial problems (maybe self inflicted, maybe not) previous criminal history or were the victims of crime themselves. 

If you were to make such a sweeping generalization against other groups of people, for example: "Middle-Class people usually spend their money on drinks or drugs" perhaps you would see how wrong you are. Certainly other people would be quick to point it out.
		
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I get your point. I cant argue it, its your experience. Its a nice storey to read but in my experience you're an exception to the rule. A minority. 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, or maybe we have a different class of homeless where I am, 
but i can tell you, and they will tell you themselves, the homeless I interact with, beg steal and borrow to fund habbits! And they dont make a habbit of buying socks like you did.


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## patricks148 (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Having been there, I feel like I can speak with some authority on this subject. 

I never begged when I was homeless and my dog always ate before me. When I had a meal from a soup kitchen, I always shared my food with him. Perhaps because I had my dog, occasionally people would slip me a couple of dollars. 

You are wrong when you say you may as well drop a rock of crack or bottle of cider. When this happened, I got dog food for my dog and maybe can of coca-cola or a candy bar for myself. it was always welcome and I did not ever beg or use it for alcohol or drugs.

I deeply resent your implication that money given would be misused in that way. For some it would, for others it would not but to make that sweeping a generalization is not only wrong but is disrespectful to the homeless who do have some dignity and want to get on. I also used the money I was sometimes given to get a pair of socks when mine were soaked because of snow halfway up my shins and inadequate footwear and trousers.

When someone finally listened to me after being turned down by every government authority, stripped of my ID and every asset I had and surviving a winter on the streets in temperatures often below 10-20 degrees below freezing, I made the most of the opportunity and rebuilt my life from ground zero. The Vet was amazed my dog was kept in such good condition while I was down to 120 lbs in weight, (80 lbs less than normal.)

Yet of course, most homeless people are begging for drink and drugs money in your world...
		
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i think there may be a clash of location here, Craig are you in the US, if so its prob a whole different world to the UK


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			i think there may be a clash of location here, Craig are you in the US, if so its prob a whole different world to the UK
		
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Just a different flavour (accent even) of the same age-old issue!

An excerpt from a 1969 commentary....

Have you seen the old man 
In the closed-down market 
Kicking up the paper, 
with his worn out shoes? 
In his eyes you see no pride 
Hand held loosely at his side
Yesterday's paper telling yesterday's news 

So how can you tell me you're lonely, 
And say for you that the sun don't shine? 
Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of London 
I'll show you something to make you change your mind 

Have you seen the old girl 
Who walks the streets of London 
Dirt in her hair and her clothes in rags? 
She's no time for talking, 
She just keeps right on walking 
Carrying her home in two carrier bags. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streets_of_London_(song)

I have seen too many examples of precisely the above - along with some 'professional beggars' - over the years!


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## Crazyface (Oct 4, 2016)

Me and the misses talk about people being homeless now and again, and we maybe simplify things a bit (a lot), but with the welfare state being readilly available and there being places to stay...oh yes there are...why are people begging for money and have NO WHERE to stay?

This baffles us. Oh and begging for money with an animal...really??????


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 4, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Me and the misses talk about people being homeless now and again, and we maybe simplify things a bit (a lot), but with the welfare state being readilly available and there being places to stay...oh yes there are...why are people begging for money and have NO WHERE to stay?

This baffles us. Oh and begging for money with an animal...really??????
		
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"maybe we simply things a bit"... the biggest understatement of the year.

"you talk about it a bit", have you tried looking into it? Or just going to tell us your uninformed opinion, with significant amounts of unnecessary punctuation?


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## TonyN (Oct 4, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			i think there may be a clash of location here, Craig are you in the US, if so its prob a whole different world to the UK
		
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This will absolutely be the case. I've never been across the pond and I didnt know thats where you where, but I would well imagine there is a huge difference between US homeless and UK homeless.

I am purely talking about here in the UK. North west England in particular. There are enough food banks and charity shelters that no one, bar no one will starve, go hungry or not find shelter. If they do, its through their own choice or lack of effort. 

You don't even have to be homeless to get handouts. Our local food centres often give weekly shops to people who own their own homes but are struggling financially. 

I'll reiterate it again, HERE, beggars beg for money to spend on drink and drugs. Most of them are not even homeless they live in shelters or couch surf but they still beg borrow and steal for a fix because no matter how much they get, its never enough. And this isnt me having a go, or belittling, or pointing the finger of misunderstanding, I know for a fact because I deal with, process, refer and arrest people like this daily. 

Colleagues and I constantly try to help put addicts/users on the road to recovery, point them in the right direction, help secure them accommodation, feed them, but honestly, most do not care, do not want to be rehabilitated because they love the life of drugs/alcohol and responsibility free life. 

Even after the have had their methadone (heroin substitute treatment) they will still steal each others or beg /shoplift to fund the habbit. They don't take methadone to help them come off drugs, they take it on top because its free and fills the gap between fixes.

Obviously this doesn't apply to EVERYONE, but in my experience it is 99 out of 100 I deal with.


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Just a different flavour (accent even) of the same age-old issue!

An excerpt from a 1969 commentary....

Have you seen the old man 
In the closed-down market 
Kicking up the paper, 
with his worn out shoes? 
In his eyes you see no pride 
Hand held loosely at his side
Yesterday's paper telling yesterday's news 

So how can you tell me you're lonely, 
And say for you that the sun don't shine? 
Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of London 
I'll show you something to make you change your mind 

Have you seen the old girl 
Who walks the streets of London 
Dirt in her hair and her clothes in rags? 
She's no time for talking, 
She just keeps right on walking 
Carrying her home in two carrier bags. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streets_of_London_(song)

I have seen too many examples of precisely the above - along with some 'professional beggars' - over the years!
		
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Foxholer:

You are wrong, Sir.

Homeless people are not like images of people who have given up on life in folk songs. Nor are they always homeless because of their own making and nor should they be categorized with "Professional beggars."

Of course it is easy for you to say that because it requires no thought on your part and probably falls broadly in line with thinking within whatever social group you are part of.

But it does not mean you are right. All you are doing addresses what you want to see in homelessness, knowing that by and large, the homeless do not have a voice or the means to intellectually defend themselves. Being homeless did not rob me of that ability. Although it involved a great deal of suffering, I have come out of it a better, more thankful and grateful person than I were before.

When I found just one person willing to listen and believe what happened to me, I was able with a little assistance to get off the streets. Within two months, I had a place in transitional housing and a job. I saved up and moved across the country to restart my life in a place there are a lot more jobs. I also decided I wanted to play golf.

But Of course it's easier to stick to your stereotypes than use your mind.


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Me and the misses talk about people being homeless now and again, and we maybe simplify things a bit (a lot), but with the welfare state being readilly available and there being places to stay...oh yes there are...why are people begging for money and have NO WHERE to stay?

This baffles us. Oh and begging for money with an animal...really??????
		
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Is ignorance something you and the misses enjoy basking in from your ivory tower?

People beg for money for various reasons. Sometimes it is for drink and drugs. But sometimes it's because they need something essential and they have no way of being able to earn it at that time. I never begged when I was homeless but I spoke to people who did.

My dog was literally the only thing that prevented me from ending my life. The thought to go on for him when there seems no hope was my sole comfort.

As for your welfare state argument, that had been on its knees for forty plus years and is not the catch all you seem to think it is. Go online and look at the 1970's documentary films made by John Pilger and you will see it was broken then. Successive governments since then have done practically nothing to help the homeless. It is sad that I don't even live in the YK but have checked this out while you and your wife just theorize and do bugger all to inform yourselves or, God forbid, actually do something.

In America, there was no welfare state to help me. Stripped of my ID, no agency would help you without an ID and it cost money I did not have to get a replacement. Eating in soup kitchens sharing with my dog kept me alive but I lost eighty pounds of weight and it caused health problems I still have today.

Craig


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

TonyN said:



			This will absolutely be the case. I've never been across the pond and I didnt know thats where you where, but I would well imagine there is a huge difference between US homeless and UK homeless.

I am purely talking about here in the UK. North west England in particular. There are enough food banks and charity shelters that no one, bar no one will starve, go hungry or not find shelter. If they do, its through their own choice or lack of effort. 

You don't even have to be homeless to get handouts. Our local food centres often give weekly shops to people who own their own homes but are struggling financially. 

I'll reiterate it again, HERE, beggars beg for money to spend on drink and drugs. Most of them are not even homeless they live in shelters or couch surf but they still beg borrow and steal for a fix because no matter how much they get, its never enough. And this isnt me having a go, or belittling, or pointing the finger of misunderstanding, I know for a fact because I deal with, process, refer and arrest people like this daily. 

Colleagues and I constantly try to help put addicts/users on the road to recovery, point them in the right direction, help secure them accommodation, feed them, but honestly, most do not care, do not want to be rehabilitated because they love the life of drugs/alcohol and responsibility free life. 

Even after the have had their methadone (heroin substitute treatment) they will still steal each others or beg /shoplift to fund the habbit. They don't take methadone to help them come off drugs, they take it on top because its free and fills the gap between fixes.

Obviously this doesn't apply to EVERYONE, but in my experience it is 99 out of 100 I deal with.
		
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Then by your own statement you are saying 99 percent of homeless are drink or drug addicts. That is just not true, Sir.

You can't deal with issues concerning homeless people if you just assume they are addicts. The help you give to addicts is to addicts who happen to be homeless. It doesn't address homeless people primarily.


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## TonyN (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Then by your own statement you are saying 99 percent of homeless are drink or drug addicts. That is just not true, Sir.

You can't deal with issues concerning homeless people if you just assume they are addicts. The help you give to addicts is to addicts who happen to be homeless. It doesn't address homeless people primarily.
		
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No, I'm saying 99% of the people I deal with are! In particular the area I have mentioned. But I would be the numbers are not far off for the rest of the UK.

Im not guessing these things, the people I meet are open and honest about their addictions. They tell me, they tell the custody Sergeants, they tell the custody medical staff. They know its an excuse our judicial system sympathises with when they sentence suspects for dishonesty offences. 

This isn't the 1970's. Its 2016 and times have changed. Dramatically. I kid you not, where I work, you drive past any deal spot before breakfast, its a scene I can only liken to the walking dead, watching addicts flock for a deal, like walkers do for fresh meat. 

There is no theme tune here. No happy ending. This is north west metropolis where crack cocain and heroin are easier to buy than cigarettes if your under 18. 

It might be different there, but here, its no different than I've previously described. We dont have a big homeless problem because we have plenty of space for them. But the beggers and street drinkers that go through the custody process, will almost always test positive for heroin/crack and will tell you they are begging so they dont have to steal to buy drugs.


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

TonyN said:



			No, I'm saying 99% of the people I deal with are! In particular the area I have mentioned. But I would be the numbers are not far off for the rest of the UK.

Im not guessing these things, the people I meet are open and honest about their addictions. They tell me, they tell the custody Sergeants, they tell the custody medical staff. They know its an excuse our judicial system sympathises with when they sentence suspects for dishonesty offences. 

This isn't the 1970's. Its 2016 and times have changed. Dramatically. I kid you not, where I work, you drive past any deal spot before breakfast, its a scene I can only liken to the walking dead, watching addicts flock for a deal, like walkers do for fresh meat. 

There is no theme tune here. No happy ending. This is north west metropolis where crack cocain and heroin are easier to buy than cigarettes if your under 18. 

It might be different there, but here, its no different than I've previously described. We dont have a big homeless problem because we have plenty of space for them. But the beggers and street drinkers that go through the custody process, will almost always test positive for heroin/crack and will tell you they are begging so they dont have to steal to buy drugs.
		
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So you mention this is 2016 and not the 1970's...what has caused this to happen in the UK?


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## TonyN (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			So you mention this is 2016 and not the 1970's...what has caused this to happen in the UK?
		
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Caused what?


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Foxholer:

You are wrong, Sir.

Homeless people are not like images of people who have given up on life in folk songs. Nor are they always homeless because of their own making and nor should they be categorized with "Professional beggars."

Of course it is easy for you to say that because it requires no thought on your part and probably falls broadly in line with thinking within whatever social group you are part of.

But it does not mean you are right. All you are doing addresses what you want to see in homelessness, knowing that by and large, the homeless do not have a voice or the means to intellectually defend themselves. Being homeless did not rob me of that ability. Although it involved a great deal of suffering, I have come out of it a better, more thankful and grateful person than I were before.

When I found just one person willing to listen and believe what happened to me, I was able with a little assistance to get off the streets. Within two months, I had a place in transitional housing and a job. I saved up and moved across the country to restart my life in a place there are a lot more jobs. I also decided I wanted to play golf.

But Of course it's easier to stick to your stereotypes than use your mind.
		
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Thanks for your own non-thinking, stereotypical, ignorant comment!

I have seen, know (all too well) and am related to folk who are or have been homeless - for one reason or another!

Anyone who has travelled on a late train from Waterloo (at least a few years ago when I used to) will have experienced the 'professional beggars' I mentioned! That doesn't mean ALL are 'professional', just as your experience doesn't mean ALL homeless are capable of recovering their situation, so reasonable assistance WILL always be required from any 'just' society! I've not experienced US sufficiently to comment properly on whether it is 'Just' or not - though I do have a view (based on 'limited sampling'!).

It is part of the role of the likes of folk-singers (your term) to highlight such issues! Try checking out Hornsby's magnificent 'The Way it Is' - which does mention the US Welfare system - or 'Everything's Alright' (from JC Superstar) for a 'musical summary of the issues'!


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

TonyN said:



			Caused what?
		
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Caused so many people to become from what you describe, as totally hopeless addicts?


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## craigstardis1976 (Oct 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for your own non-thinking, stereotypical, ignorant comment!

I have seen, know (all too well) and am related to folk who are or have been homeless - for one reason or another!

Anyone who has travelled on a late train from Waterloo (at least a few years ago when I used to) will have experienced the 'professional beggars' I mentioned! That doesn't mean ALL are 'professional', just as your experience doesn't mean ALL homeless are capable of recovering their situation, so reasonable assistance WILL always be required from any 'just' society! I've not experienced US sufficiently to comment properly on whether it is 'Just' or not - though I do have a view (based on 'limited sampling'!).

It is part of the role of the likes of folk-singers (your term) to highlight such issues! Try checking out Hornsby's magnificent 'The Way it Is' - which does mention the US Welfare system - or 'Everything's Alright' (from JC Superstar) for a 'musical summary of the issues'!
		
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Can you please define how my comments are: non-thinking, stereotypical, ignorant - Thank you.

The thing is we do not live in a just society not in the UK and certainly not in the US. I am not a social justice crusader. Of course I wish things had been available for me but they were not. 

However, it does not mean that homeless people should be grouped into categories of deprivation such as drug or drink addicts. Why not see homeless people for who they are? individuals who like any other group of people are people with faults but also people with talents and if given the opportunity are capable of rebuilding and making the most of their lives.

Two years ago, I was on the streets. Today, I can play golf once or twice a week (or at least I could if I was not injured) and pursue this passion and a career. There are lots of others capable of doing the same but Governments seldom hope those people while spending untold amounts on those who are addicts.


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## TonyN (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Caused so many people to become from what you describe, as totally hopeless addicts?
		
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Oh if I had a day to write that up I could give you my opinion. 

But in short, not only do we live in a country that rewards the lazy, we also live in a country that fails to take a hardline approach to those that step out of line too often, instead trying to rehabilitate everyone. Which is fine but you simply can't rehabilitate someome who doesn't want to be rehabilitated.


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Can you please define how my comments are: non-thinking, stereotypical, ignorant - Thank you.
		
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Answer the question 'How well do you know me?' and you will find the answer!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 4, 2016)

Guys can we accept that Homelessness is a bad thing and is driven by different conditions in different areas.
without it entering into a slanging match as to who has had the most authentic homelessness experience.

Tony, Feel for you, must be really tough dealing with that day after day, stay strong
Craig, Amazing story, it shows what can be done when somebody wants to escape and just needs a leg up, inspirational . Hope you get well soon

think everyone else including me, doesnt really have a clue whats going on.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2016)

TonyN said:



			This will absolutely be the case. I've never been across the pond and I didnt know thats where you where, but I would well imagine there is a huge difference between US homeless and UK homeless.

I am purely talking about here in the UK. North west England in particular. There are enough food banks and charity shelters that no one, bar no one will starve, go hungry or not find shelter. If they do, its through their own choice or lack of effort. 

You don't even have to be homeless to get handouts. Our local food centres often give weekly shops to people who own their own homes but are struggling financially. 

I'll reiterate it again, HERE, beggars beg for money to spend on drink and drugs. Most of them are not even homeless they live in shelters or couch surf but they still beg borrow and steal for a fix because no matter how much they get, its never enough. And this isnt me having a go, or belittling, or pointing the finger of misunderstanding, I know for a fact because I deal with, process, refer and arrest people like this daily. 

Colleagues and I constantly try to help put addicts/users on the road to recovery, point them in the right direction, help secure them accommodation, feed them, but honestly, most do not care, do not want to be rehabilitated because they love the life of drugs/alcohol and responsibility free life. 

Even after the have had their methadone (heroin substitute treatment) they will still steal each others or beg /shoplift to fund the habbit. They don't take methadone to help them come off drugs, they take it on top because its free and fills the gap between fixes.

Obviously this doesn't apply to EVERYONE, but in my experience it is 99 out of 100 I deal with.
		
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Thanks for a very informative post.


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## Crazyface (Oct 5, 2016)

x2

I knew it !!!


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## patricks148 (Oct 5, 2016)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Is ignorance something you and the misses enjoy basking in from your ivory tower?

People beg for money for various reasons. Sometimes it is for drink and drugs. But sometimes it's because they need something essential and they have no way of being able to earn it at that time. I never begged when I was homeless but I spoke to people who did.

My dog was literally the only thing that prevented me from ending my life. The thought to go on for him when there seems no hope was my sole comfort.

As for your welfare state argument, that had been on its knees for forty plus years and is not the catch all you seem to think it is. Go online and look at the 1970's documentary films made by John Pilger and you will see it was broken then. Successive governments since then have done practically nothing to help the homeless. It is sad that I don't even live in the YK but have checked this out while you and your wife just theorize and do bugger all to inform yourselves or, God forbid, actually do something.

In America, there was no welfare state to help me. Stripped of my ID, no agency would help you without an ID and it cost money I did not have to get a replacement. Eating in soup kitchens sharing with my dog kept me alive but I lost eighty pounds of weight and it caused health problems I still have today.

Craig
		
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I expect your experence in the US has little bearing on what Tony's is in the UK


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## JCW (Oct 6, 2016)

We got them here in Poole & Bournemouth , more then a few , changing times .............EYG


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			Don't normally get seriously moved by the sight of homeless because of how common it is in big cities. I'll put change in as many as i possibly can if I don't need it and i'll always speak to them rather than just walk past.

This weekend however I was getting some cash out in Edinburgh and there was a lad sat to the side of the cash points (a few meters away) just sat there crying. 
This lad was about my age (23) which really hit home. I can't even condone how horrendous it must be to live on a street with nothing to your name and I wouldn't even know where to start to get myself out of that position.

I gave him a bit of change and stood and had a fag with him and a conversation. Chatted about football and Edinburgh and what not. 
Always think that just spending a couple of minutes with a homeless person or just having a small chat will make them feel 10x better than copper coins.
		
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Good on ya but here's my thing ... I wouldn't give a smoking beggar a penny, me chucking in some cash for him to have a fag lol, no chance, you are having a giraffe!


Multiple reasons for someone to be homeless though and some would get my sympathy, some!


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