# Theresa May - Not up to the Job of PM?



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2016)

Is she got what it takes to be PM? Or is she like Gordie Broon - competent and totally comfortable in a very senior government role - but basically just not up to the job of PM.

Two recent examples of where a PM needs a thick skin but where May shows that hers is not so thick:  taking a very hard and public line on cabinet leaks when she knows that in politics leaking is part of the game.  This just gives the impression that she feels vulnerable and not in control; and the Trousergate - where she has set her #1 'attack dog' on Nicky Morgan and banned her from No10 and from attending Brexit meetings - for suggesting nigh on Â£1000 on a pair of pants in a photo shoot is not quite the message the NAACs (Not At All Coping) and JAMs needed.  That just seems petulant and counter productive.

Then there is her almost complete silence on approach to Brexit - except when she is slapping down miscreants making statements verging on Brexit policy feelers - sounds like micro-management borne of insecurity.  And my wife commented that she seems to be walking with more of a stoop these days - is the weight on her shoulders getting too much?

I actually did have hopes for TM - but not sure she is up to it.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2016)

If the latest polls are any indication, with the Tories on 42% and Labour trailing on 25%, Mr J Public seems to think she's doing OK.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

She has always stooped but she is being pictured more now, especially walking on her own, so it stands out more. She is getting more Monty Burns like but I think her choice of short jackets exaggerates the stoop which does not help.

Early days. PM's like control. Alistair Cambell ruled behind the scenes with a rod of iron, others have tried to follow. Nicky Morgan was sacked from her role so I suspect she is not a fan anyway. I actually agree with her comments regarding Brexit and don't understand people who expect her to give constant updates on what she would like out of it. The only thing I have not liked is the occasional soundbite, red, white and blue Brexit for example. That is not what she is about and she needs to stop that. People like her being straightforward, we don't want soundbites from her.


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## User62651 (Dec 12, 2016)

You may be right but what are the alternatives? Looking at the current cabinet no-one is jumping out as a better candidate than TM, maybe just Michael Fallon or Philip Hammond.

She's in unchartered waters, unenviable position for her, wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't last that long, tough job but she wanted it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			You may be right but what are the alternatives? Looking at the current cabinet no-one is jumping out as a better candidate than TM, maybe just Michael Fallon or Philip Hammond.

She's in unchartered waters, unenviable position for her, wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't last that long, tough job but she wanted it.
		
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I agree she is in a very unenviable position and wonder who would take her place.  After all we were very close to having Boris Johnson  as PM and Andrea Leadsome as chancellor.  I am 1000% happier with May and Hammond.  And were Ken Clarke to be Foreign Secretary then they'd be a Tory Remain Top Gear (yes it's been said many many times before)

So no idea what might happen two years down the line from now if she does not, or is unable to, deliver a hard Brexit


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## chrisd (Dec 12, 2016)

She's doing just fine


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2016)

I thought she would be OK but must admit to being slightly underwhelmed.
At the time I said it was a 6 month proxy job but her main right wing rivals have thankfully fallen by the wayside.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 12, 2016)

I cant see any real problems

She doesnt have a magic wand to make it all better, she has to oversee a process which I think they are right not to rush into
The only decision I disagreed with was Boris as FS, but she is probably of the opinion that it is best to keep him under close control rather than let him off the leash and have a free voice from the back benches.

as to what she looks like or what she wears, ....It doesnt bother me either way


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is she got what it takes to be PM? Or is she like Gordie Broon - competent and totally comfortable in a very senior government role - but basically just not up to the job of PM.

Two recent examples of where a PM needs a thick skin but where May shows that hers is not so thick:  taking a very hard and public line on cabinet leaks when she knows that in politics leaking is part of the game.  This just gives the impression that she feels vulnerable and not in control; and the Trousergate - where she has set her #1 'attack dog' on Nicky Morgan and banned her from No10 and from attending Brexit meetings - for suggesting nigh on Â£1000 on a pair of pants in a photo shoot is not quite the message the NAACs (Not At All Coping) and JAMs needed.  That just seems petulant and counter productive.

Then there is her almost complete silence on approach to Brexit - except when she is slapping down miscreants making statements verging on Brexit policy feelers - sounds like micro-management borne of insecurity.  And my wife commented that she seems to be walking with more of a stoop these days - is the weight on her shoulders getting too much?

I actually did have hopes for TM - but not sure she is up to it.
		
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What business is it of Nicky Morgan's, or anybody else's for that matter, what trousers Theresa May wears for an interview in The Times?  How does Mrs. Morgan know that Mrs. May paid that much for the trousers; could they have been a gift?  I would not have known, and frankly could not care less, what Mrs. May chooses to wear or what its supposed value is had Nicky Morgan not chosen to bring it into the open, and frankly if the best thing that Nicky Morgan has to currently discuss is the price & suitability of Theresa May's choice of clothing then I can't see she would bring much to a Brexit meeting and frankly she won't be missed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			What business is it of Nicky Morgan's, or anybody else's for that matter, what trousers Theresa May wears for an interview in The Times?  How does Mrs. Morgan know that Mrs. May paid that much for the trousers; could they have been a gift?  I would not have known, and frankly could not care less, what Mrs. May chooses to wear or what its supposed value is had Nicky Morgan not chosen to bring it into the open, and frankly if the best thing that Nicky Morgan has to currently discuss is the price & suitability of Theresa May's choice of clothing then I can't see she would bring much to a Brexit meeting and frankly she won't be missed.
		
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The point is that it got to TM - and she should have been able to completely ignore it - or if it did sting she should either have kept it to herself or not react in such a public and somewhat petulant manner,

On your 'does it matter' question? - Well to me no - except I thought they were pretty yeugh,  However sartorial elegance (or apparent lack of it) did for Michael Foot.  I can see NMs point.  May did not *need *to be wearing a VERY expensive pair of fancy pants for a magazine photo shoot.  She could have been a little bit more cognisant of public perception.


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2016)

Is she suuposed to dress from Primark then?


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## User62651 (Dec 12, 2016)

It's 'Cool Brittania' all over again.

Those breeks are more Chrissie Hynde or Suzi Quattro than PM though!


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## arnieboy (Dec 12, 2016)

She and Philip Hammond are doing fine by me.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 12, 2016)

Not being a Tory, she is doing just fine and is the best of what there is. Dont see what TM wears has anything to do with N Morgan. I wonder if she is just as keen to voice dispair on the dishevelled donkey that is BJ, or however many pounds Cameron and Boy George spent on their suits.
This is just another non story and should be left in the bin where it deserves to be.


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2016)

Trousergate could only have happened between women.
Other than that she is doing well and really as much as the opponents of the Tories would like to see her fail, we had all better hope she succeeds. These are important times and let's face it, who is going to replace her, either from the Tories or any other party?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2016)

In respect of _Trousergate _the point is that (I agree) that it *is *totally irrelevant - but what I (and others) are asking asking about is more TMs *reaction *- it has been rather petulant and childish (how today's _Times _described it).  As has her rather heavy-handed reaction to 'leaks' - which of course has been 'leaked'.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2016)

ger147 said:



			If the latest polls are any indication, with the Tories on 42% and Labour trailing on 25%, Mr J Public seems to think she's doing OK.
		
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I suspect a lot of that is down to the sheer unelectability of Corbyn than to do with the attraction of May.  If Labour could get their act together and have a leader who resonated with the public then I'd guess that gap would be a lot closer.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect a lot of that is down to the sheer unelectability of Corbyn than to do with the attraction of May.  If Labour could get their act together and have a leader who resonated with the public then I'd guess that gap would be a lot closer.
		
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Corbyn is untouchable until the next GE. The Labour hierarchy have already tried to ditch him and failed miserably.

May's future as PM depends on how much of the Tory party like the Brexit deal she manages to negotiate. If it turns out to be palatable to most of them then she could survive until the GE and if so will most likely romp it vs Labour under Corbyn, no matter what trousers she wears...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is she got what it takes to be PM? Or is she like Gordie Broon - competent and totally comfortable in a very senior government role - but basically just not up to the job of PM.

Two recent examples of where a PM needs a thick skin but where May shows that hers is not so thick:  taking a very hard and public line on cabinet leaks when she knows that in politics leaking is part of the game.  This just gives the impression that she feels vulnerable and not in control; and the Trousergate - where she has set her #1 'attack dog' on Nicky Morgan and banned her from No10 and from attending Brexit meetings - for suggesting nigh on Â£1000 on a pair of pants in a photo shoot is not quite the message the NAACs (Not At All Coping) and JAMs needed.  That just seems petulant and counter productive.

Then there is her almost complete silence on approach to Brexit - except when she is slapping down miscreants making statements verging on Brexit policy feelers - sounds like micro-management borne of insecurity.  And my wife commented that she seems to be walking with more of a stoop these days - is the weight on her shoulders getting too much?

I actually did have hopes for TM - but not sure she is up to it.
		
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Yes she has got what it takes and is doing a good job.    You seem to be struggling with the fact that she is not sending you an hourly update on Brexit plans but all will be revealed in the fullness of time.


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## Wabinez (Dec 12, 2016)

More it all goes on, the more I see Brexit not happening. TM delivers the 'Brexit means Brexit' line...but she was very much a remainer.

I have a funny feeling this Supreme Court judge case will see that the decision falls to MPs, and MPs will vote to remain. Completely out of TM's hands at that point, and the country I believe will fall happy.  However, how this leaves us with the EU is a different matter.

It's not an enviable position she has found herself in, however, given the time...I think she'll prove to be a very effective leader.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2016)

Completely work unsafe. Lots of rude words.

[video=youtube_share;ytRK1lqfgwY]https://youtu.be/ytRK1lqfgwY[/video]


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...arge-consignment-of-dalmatians-20161212118820


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 12, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Trousergate could only have happened between women.
		
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Nonsense. It only happened because TM is a woman but she gets plenty of the same from other sources. Like when she met Nicola Sturgeon and most of the coverage was about their shoes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

Ken Clarke was known for his Hush Puppies, Boris Johnson for looking a mess. It is not an exclusive thing for women and their clothes to be highlighted but it is pretty poor for one female mp to have highlighted this when she would have been aware of the consequences.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Completely work unsafe. Lots of rude words.

[video=youtube_share;ytRK1lqfgwY]https://youtu.be/ytRK1lqfgwY[/video]
		
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Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...arge-consignment-of-dalmatians-20161212118820

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Thats about as funny as a sack of Arse Holes


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In respect of _Trousergate _the point is that (I agree) that it *is *totally irrelevant - but what I (and others) are asking asking about is more TMs *reaction *- it has been rather petulant and childish (how today's _Times _described it).  As has her rather heavy-handed reaction to 'leaks' - which of course has been 'leaked'.
		
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Was it TM's reaction, or is an overzealous aide plus spin from the media? I don't know either way and don't really care. Is she doing a good job? Brexit aside, which so many people have so many expectations for, I'm a tad disappointed.

She was my first choice, and I was pleased when she got the job but I'm a little underwhelmed by the governments performance.

That said, Corbyn, Farron or Sturgeon? Definitely not the first two! I don't like Sturgeon's politics but she's a damn fine politician.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Was it TM's reaction, or is an overzealous aide plus spin from the media? I don't know either way and don't really care. Is she doing a good job? Brexit aside, which so many people have so many expectations for, I'm a tad disappointed.

She was my first choice, and I was pleased when she got the job but I'm a little underwhelmed by the governments performance.

*That said, Corbyn, Farron or Sturgeon? Definitely not the first two! I don't like Sturgeon's politics but she's a damn fine politician.*

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Dont care for her, her politics or anything to do with her. She Scottish, and since she and her cohorts want to be rid of the Union I want her to have nothing to do with anything British or English.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes she has got what it takes and is doing a good job.    You seem to be struggling with the fact that she is not sending you an hourly update on Brexit plans but all will be revealed in the fullness of time.
		
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On Brexit - as you seem to be fixated by my fixation with a Brexit Plan (btw - when I talk about a _Plan_ I am NOT talking about what the government want to achieve - that is not a plan - these are objectives).  Anyway. My point is that she is saying almost nothing about Brexit, and into that silence come various ministers and she slaps them down or puts out rebuttals to what they have said.  That doesn't seem a very clever way of laying out objectives for Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Dont care for her, her politics or anything to do with her. She Scottish, and since she and her cohorts want to be rid of the Union I want her to have nothing to do with anything British or English.
		
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Except that when she talks about a separate Brexit deal for Scotland she is constantly reminded that Scotland is part of the UK and that the UK voted to Remain.  And not quite sure what her being Scottish has to do with the price of eggs.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Brexit - as you seem to be fixated by my fixation with a Brexit Plan (btw - when I talk about a _Plan_ I am NOT talking about what the government want to achieve - that is not a plan - these are objectives).  Anyway. My point is that she is saying almost nothing about Brexit, and into that silence come various ministers and she slaps them down or puts out rebuttals to what they have said.  That doesn't seem a very clever way of laying out objectives for Brexit.
		
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Ministers accept enhanced salaries and must accept certain ways of working with collective responsibility.  They can rightly expect to be disciplined if they go rolling around like loose cannons.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ministers accept enhanced salaries and must accept certain ways of working with collective responsibility.  They can rightly expect to be disciplined if they go rolling around like loose cannons.
		
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Indeed they shouldn't be loose cannons - but does not the fact that they are speaking as they are not suggest that maybe TM does not have a firm and steady hand on the tiller.  She might do - we know where she is heading as she has said we will leave port - but where we are going and how we get there - well I am sure we will find out in time.  I think she has to be careful as others may muscle her out of the way and take hold if they don't like her direction of travel.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 13, 2016)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 21439

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Were it not true it would be funny


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2016)

Very sexist coverage from all parts...

Bet Blair or Cameron don't get their suits in Top Man or their shirts from the market!    Never mentioned.  

Poor old Tre spends out on some leather strides and its front page!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

IanM said:



			Very sexist coverage from all parts...

Bet Blair or Cameron don't get their suits in Top Man or their shirts from the market!    Never mentioned.  

Poor old Tre spends out on some leather strides and its front page!
		
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My point is not what she was wearing; how much it cost; who pointed it out; who really cares - rather it was about TMs reaction - which as the Times newspaper said yesterday was just childish - just toys out of the pram petulance - not the reaction of someone with a skin thick enough to be a long serving PM.


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## MarkE (Dec 13, 2016)

I think she's doing a fantastic job, in a very difficult situation. No PM has ever had the scrutiny and faced ridiculous legal challenges at every turn she makes. We at last have a PM who seems to want to do  the best for the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Were it not true it would be funny
		
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It's neither funny or true.  Well unless you have your good things about Brexit/Tory filter on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Were it not true it would be funny
		
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Only in HK's sad little world is that true.

Really is about time that the 5th form attempts at humour are dropped from the debate.


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## chrisd (Dec 13, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Really is about time that the 5th form attempts at humour are dropped from the debate.
		
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If it wasn't for the humour the debate wouldn't be worth following


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is not what she was wearing; how much it cost; who pointed it out; who really cares - rather it was about TMs reaction - which as the Times newspaper said yesterday was just childish - just toys out of the pram petulance - not the reaction of someone with a skin thick enough to be a long serving PM.
		
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Her reaction; or the aide's reaction?  And as I said earlier, if that's the best that Nicky Morgan can bring to the debate then  Theresa May has made the correct decision in excluding her from the process in my opinion.

And I suspect your real point was another cheap shot at the Brexit process.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Her reaction; or the aide's reaction?  And as I said earlier, if that's the best that Nicky Morgan can bring to the debate then  Theresa May has made the correct decision in excluding her from the process in my opinion.

And I suspect your real point was another cheap shot at the Brexit process.
		
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Well you might suspect that but you'd be wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's neither funny or true.  Well unless you have your good things about Brexit/Tory filter on.
		
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Which bits of it are not true then?

I need to know as I am clearly being misled by elements of the MSM


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which bits of it are not true then?

I need to know as I am clearly being misled by elements of the MSM
		
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The whole thing is full of untruths and gross exaggerations.  Just take the first line that Brexit will lead to an impoverished UK, do you honestly believe we will become impoverished?


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which bits of it are not true then?

I need to know as I am clearly being misled by elements of the MSM
		
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Bearing in mind your previous comments about Tory leaders, over a few years, would you really be quite so obviously hyperactive in this thread? Honestly, with your very obvious anti-Tory position in so many threads I think the only person with an issue is you. 

You are are making a mountain out of a mole hill over ...  what? Pants? Really? 

The media have long since moved on over far more important issues, even though they will trivialise those for their 15 minutes of fame. 

Leathers pants?! Is that the best you can do to highlight issues within the Conservative Party. Grow up and move on to real issues!


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## Crazyface (Dec 14, 2016)

Nope she is not! I've just caught the back end of PMQ and she was asked about our overseas aid budget doubling to 14 BILLION, and there is a short fall of 2 BILLION to help our own OAP.s and charity should begin at home. She dismissed this saying we should be patting ourselves of the back for supporting the less well off overseas. She just doesn't get it does she? She needs to have a look at why we voted for BREXIT! Charity begins at home FULL STOP you stupid idiot. She's missed a bit opportunity to make a great statement to appease the BREXITIERS and missed it. I fear for the future discussions.  If Nige see this on TV he'll put his jacket back on (I hope) and get ready to run the country under UKIP.


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2016)

Overseas aid has nothing to do with Brexit.

Overseas aid should continue.  But it is appropriate to challenge it going to places with Space Programmes, Missile Programmes and corrupt regimes who steal most of it before it gets to the needy,


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2016)

IanM said:



			Overseas aid has nothing to do with Brexit.

Overseas aid should continue.  But it is appropriate to challenge it going to places with Space Programmes, Missile Programmes and corrupt regimes who steal most of it before it gets to the needy,
		
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No but it needs to be used with care and not squandered to questionable projects abroad when we have such shortfalls in things like Social Care


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## JohnnyDee (Dec 14, 2016)

In common with Bozza she strikes me as someone who's been promoted into a position well beyond their very ordinary abilities. 

She appears to believe that because she holds the office then she is in control and in charge. 

However for me the body language betrays her and exposes her as being well out of her depth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			In common with Bozza she strikes me as someone who's been promoted into a position well beyond their very ordinary abilities. 

She appears to believe that because she holds the office then she is in control and in charge. 

However for me the body language betrays her and exposes her as being well out of her depth.
		
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I have to agree.  Though I wish her well as I do not see an alternative I would prefer.


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## Crazyface (Dec 15, 2016)

When she was promoted it smelt a bit fishy. All the big boys backing out leaving her as the only candidate. They obviously did not want to be involved with the very tricky Brexit negotiations and hung her out to dry. She does not come over well and does not appear to know what the hell is going on. We need to get on with this Brexit stuff and fire the first salvo on Christmas Eve, catching everyone on the back foot and making them panic and work over Christmas, LOL! Whilst sitting back and enjoying the turkey dinner and being ready with the next move. Well that's what I'd do.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 15, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			In common with Bozza she strikes me as someone who's been promoted into a position well beyond their very ordinary abilities. 

*She appears to believe that because she holds the office then she is in control and in charge*. 

However for me the body language betrays her and exposes her as being well out of her depth.
		
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But then you could argue that for the vast majority of managers or leaders in the world. If most managers were completely honest they admit they got promoted on their technical abilities, and then a lot of it is bluffing your way through and making it look like you know what you are doing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 16, 2016)

Well it looks like she's really got her work cut out now as Britain slips back to the pre-Thatcher era of union dminated strikes crippling the country, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38347283 riots in our prisons and of course our old friend Brexit. Add in the ever present terrorist threat, the economy and dealing with Trump going forward and you have to ask who would really be up to it. My personal wish is for her to get to grips with this union action, particularly the railway debacle that's making it impossible for people to go about their business, and has even cost some their jobs.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Well it looks like she's really got her work cut out now as Britain slips back to the pre-Thatcher era of union dminated strikes crippling the country, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38347283 riots in our prisons and of course our old friend Brexit. Add in the ever present terrorist threat, the economy and dealing with Trump going forward and you have to ask who would really be up to it.* My personal wish is for her to get to grips with this union action, particularly the railway debacle *that's making it impossible for people to go about their business, and has even cost some their jobs.
		
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Get some Eastern Europeans in to do the job at minimum wage.  You know it makes sense!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Well it looks like she's really got her work cut out now as Britain slips back to the pre-Thatcher era of union dminated strikes crippling the country, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38347283 riots in our prisons and of course our old friend Brexit. Add in the ever present terrorist threat, the economy and dealing with Trump going forward and you have to ask who would really be up to it. My personal wish is for her to get to grips with this union action, particularly the railway debacle that's making it impossible for people to go about their business, and has even cost some their jobs.
		
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Comparisons are made between the railways and police and other key services where strikes are prohibited.  Except railways are privatised so they are no longer 'public' services and employees Ts&Cs are at the whim of a private company needing to make a profit for it's shareholders.  Renationalise the railways *then* perhaps we can treat railways as a critical public service.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Comparisons are made between the railways and police and other key services where strikes are prohibited.  Except railways are privatised so they are no longer 'public' services and employees Ts&Cs are at the whim of a private company needing to make a profit for it's shareholders.  Renationalise the railways *then* perhaps we can treat railways as a critical public service.
		
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I commuted by British Rail and remember dirty trains, not enough seats, late & cancelled services.

Much like today you might say and probably be right.

My point is there is no evidence to suggest that public ownership and State management would solve the problems of our rail network.


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## delc (Dec 17, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I commuted by British Rail and remember dirty trains, not enough seats, late & cancelled services.

Much like today you might say and probably be right.

My point is there is no evidence to suggest that public ownership and State management would solve the problems of our rail network.
		
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Maybe we need a German Dictator to make the trains run on time! They were pretty bad as British Rail and seem to have got worse since being privatised!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 17, 2016)

delc said:



			Maybe we need a German Dictator to make the trains run on time! They were pretty bad as British Rail and seem to have got worse since being privatised!
		
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Actually it was an Italian dictator (Mussolini) that was reputed to have got the trains running on time but history subsequently proved that it was a myth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2016)

My point is simply that I thought our governments avoid interfering in the business of private companies and that business succeed or fail according to the free market.  And so if the government wants to ban or limit strikes in the railways as they are a crucial public service then they shouldn't have prvatised them - and they'd be better renationalising.


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## ger147 (Dec 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is simply that I thought our governments avoid interfering in the business of private companies and that business succeed or fail according to the free market.  And so if the government wants to ban or limit strikes in the railways as they are a crucial public service then they shouldn't have prvatised them - and they'd be better renationalising.
		
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It's nearly Xmas and also Saturday night. Relax, have a pint and enjoy urself!!


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2016)

For a PM to publically broadcast details about a plan for future negotiations would be the most stupid thing imaginable. Everyone and his Uncle would poor over it and attempt to find holes, because that's what always happens when the not-actually-responsible-for-anything crowd always do. 

More and more daft requests would be made for more and more detail. 

Strategy comes first, the tactics for achieving these objectives will need to vary as responses and negotiations unfold.

Anyone who then judges the performance of the PM based on her failure to broadcast such a plan must be equally if not more stupid or simply blindly prejudiced.

Keeping her own council and making the Cabinet toe the line is exactly the sensible way to proceed.


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## User62651 (Dec 18, 2016)

drdel said:



			For a PM to publically broadcast details about a plan for future negotiations would be the most stupid thing imaginable.
		
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Fear she'll get on about as well as Cameron did trying to renegotiate the UK's position early this year before his goose got cooked.

This 'deal' affect all of our futures immensely and you are happy to leave it to a few Tories to do the best for us all without letting us know beforehand what the goals are? They will get what they think is best to appease right wingers and to consilidate their own positions of power in government if they are left to go it alone, these are all monied rich Tory politicians for whom negative events resulting from Brexit will little affect. Why would you put any trust in these people, they are politicians? It will be short termism looking to secure votes in the next UK election and the one after that. Leaving this momentous negotiation to just a few Tories with little experience and in secret is crazy imo. Parliament should on behalf of all of us debate and agree a UK position in advance.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Fear she'll get on about as well as Cameron did trying to renegotiate the UK's position early this year before his goose got cooked.

This 'deal' affect all of our futures immensely and you are happy to leave it to a few Tories to do the best for us all without letting us know beforehand what the goals are? They will get what they think is best to appease right wingers and to consilidate their own positions of power in government if they are left to go it alone, these are all monied rich Tory politicians for whom negative events resulting from Brexit will little affect. Why would you put any trust in these people, they are politicians? It will be short termism looking to secure votes in the next UK election and the one after that. Leaving this momentous negotiation to just a few Tories with little experience and in secret is crazy imo. Parliament should on behalf of all of us debate and agree a UK position in advance.
		
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I just don't get this argument. If our negotiating position was made public and needed a parliament vote then we would be making the best Christmas present possible to the EU negotiators.  I didn't hear anyone saying David Cameron needed to put his plans for negotiating changes to the EU treaties to a parliamentary vote before he went off on his failed negotiations.

If there needs to be a vote it just needs to be a vote on triggering Article 50.  For the UK Government to be manacled to a plan approved by Parliament that they cannot change is unrealistic and stupid IMO.

The Government have made it clear that Parliament will get a vote on the final negotiated position.   You may not like the current Government but they are the one that won the General Election last year so like it or not they are the ones running the country.


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## JohnnyDee (Dec 18, 2016)

I thought the cold shoulder May got the other day is all we can expect.

We have told 'the club' we're resigning. As most of us belong to a golf club let me paint a picture.

Your subs renewal advice arrives. You decide you're not renewing and send a letter of resignation to the board.

Do you really expect to have preferential treatment over things like weekend tee times and voting rights to elect the new board?

If you do then you're sadly deluded.


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## delc (Dec 18, 2016)

Theresa May strikes me as a grammar school swot who has been promoted way beyond her competence level!


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## delc (Dec 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't get this argument. If our negotiating position was made public and needed a parliament vote then we would be making the best Christmas present possible to the EU negotiators.  I didn't hear anyone saying David Cameron needed to put his plans for negotiating changes to the EU treaties to a parliamentary vote before he went off on his failed negotiations.

If there needs to be a vote it just needs to be a vote on triggering Article 50.  For the UK Government to be manacled to a plan approved by Parliament that they cannot change is unrealistic and stupid IMO.

The Government have made it clear that Parliament will get a vote on the final negotiated position.   You may not like the current Government but they are the one that won the General Election last year so like it or not they are the ones running the country.
		
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But leaving the EU is strictly optional!  They shouldn't go there if it is not in the best interests of the whole UK, including Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to Remain!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			I thought the cold shoulder May got the other day is all we can expect.

We have told 'the club' we're resigning. As most of us belong to a golf club let me paint a picture.

Your subs renewal advice arrives. You decide you're not renewing and send a letter of resignation to the board.

Do you really expect to have preferential treatment over things like weekend tee times and voting rights to elect the new board?

If you do then you're sadly deluded.
		
Click to expand...

I must be sadly deluded then.  If I tell my Golf Club that I have had a chat with my family and decided not to rejoin in two years but have paid my subs for the current year and will pay again next year so will be using my normal tee times, still entering medals and will attend the AGM as I want to make some comments on the membership fees, the way the committee are mismanaging the club, the number of pay and players/societies on the course these days and to maintain my handicap.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2016)

delc said:



			But leaving the EU is strictly optional!  They shouldn't go there if it is not in the best interests of the whole UK, including Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to Remain!
		
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I think you are struggling with this subject.  The EU vote was not regional it was a vote by the UK, the Scottish/Northern Irish position is immaterial.    Leaving is not an option it is the will of the people and I dont believe Parliament would be so foolish to ignore it.

Anyhow we have slipped into this rather than discussing if TM is up to the job.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2016)

delc said:



			Theresa May strikes me as a grammar school swot who has been promoted way beyond her competence level!  

Click to expand...

I guess there are people like that in all walks of employment, some of them have Masters in Chemistry as well.


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## JohnnyDee (Dec 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I must be sadly deluded then.  If I tell my Golf Club that I have had a chat with my family and decided not to rejoin in two years but have paid my subs for the current year and will pay again next year so will be using my normal tee times, still entering medals and will attend the AGM as I want to make some comments on the membership fees, the way the committee are mismanaging the club, the number of pay and players/societies on the course these days and to maintain my handicap.
		
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The scenario you paint is unreal. People will never give their Golf Club a two year notice period to quit. If they intend to quit two years hence but renew this year then they are, by definition, still full members and would of course be accorded full membership rights and privileges for that year. At such juncture they have only threatened to leave.

The only reason the Brexit strategy is protracted over a two-year period is because the process quite simply takes that long or possibly even longer.

We have effectively resigned from Club EU and consequently are of no further interest to the board and as we have no long-term intention to remain we will therefore be essentially completely irrelevant and ignored in any such long-term plans Club EU might have.


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## delc (Dec 19, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			The scenario you paint is unreal. People will never give their Golf Club a two year notice period to quit. If they intend to quit two years hence but renew this year then they are, by definition, still full members and would of course be accorded full membership rights and privileges for that year. At such juncture they have only threatened to leave.

The only reason the Brexit strategy is protracted over a two-year period is because the process quite simply takes that long or possibly even longer.

We have effectively resigned from Club EU and consequently are of no further interest to the board and as we have no long-term intention to remain we will therefore be essentially completely irrelevant and ignored in any such long-term plans Club EU might have.
		
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Of course if you threaten to leave, the club could make such a good offer in terms of reduced membership fees or other incentives, that you might decide to stay after all.  That was Boris Johnson's original position with regard to membership of the EU, if he had have become PM!


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## Sweep (Dec 19, 2016)

delc said:



			Theresa May strikes me as a grammar school swot who has been promoted way beyond her competence level!  

Click to expand...

Are you no longer a Tory then?
Who on earth are you going to vote for next time?


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## Sweep (Dec 19, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			I thought the cold shoulder May got the other day is all we can expect.

We have told 'the club' we're resigning. As most of us belong to a golf club let me paint a picture.

Your subs renewal advice arrives. You decide you're not renewing and send a letter of resignation to the board.

Do you really expect to have preferential treatment over things like weekend tee times and voting rights to elect the new board?

If you do then you're sadly deluded.
		
Click to expand...

I don't get this cold shoulder view. As I understand it the other nations were having a discussion over dinner on how to organise their side of the negotiations etc regarding the UK leaving the EU. Why on earth would they invite the U.K. PM? I mean, what could she possibly contribute to the discussion?
Of course any arrangements for the EU post Brexit aren't going to involve the UK and we shouldn't expect to have any say in them. That's not the cold shoulder, it's just common sense.


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## delc (Dec 19, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Are you no longer a Tory then?
Who on earth are you going to vote for next time?
		
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Difficult question?  Couldn't possibly vote for Corbyn & Co, so Lib-Dems probably.  :mmm:


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## JohnnyDee (Dec 19, 2016)

Sweep said:



			I don't get this cold shoulder view. As I understand it the other nations were having a discussion over dinner on how to organise their side of the negotiations etc regarding the UK leaving the EU. Why on earth would they invite the U.K. PM? I mean, what could she possibly contribute to the discussion?
Of course any arrangements for the EU post Brexit aren't going to involve the UK and we shouldn't expect to have any say in them. That's not the cold shoulder, it's just common sense.
		
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Neither do I. I'm alluding to how it (cold shoulder) was portrayed in some of the idiotic tabloid comics and popular media.

My own view is identical to yours. The UK is no longer going to be in the club and its views in that context are completely irrelevant to the other EU members who remain.


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## delc (Dec 19, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Neither do I. I'm alluding to how it (cold shoulder) was portrayed in some of the idiotic tabloid comics and popular media.

My own view is identical to yours. The UK is no longer going to be in the club and its views in that context are completely irrelevant to the other EU members who remain.
		
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As we have always been a somewhat troublesome member of the EU, they may well be glad to get rid of us, notwithstanding that we are nett contributors. So perhaps we shouldn't expect any special deals or concessions from them!


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## MegaSteve (Dec 19, 2016)

delc said:



			As we have always been a somewhat troublesome member of the EU, they may well be glad to get rid of us, notwithstanding that we are nett contributors. So perhaps we shouldn't expect any special deals or concessions from them! 

Click to expand...


Do you honestly believe our former partners, in the EU 'experiment', will risk their own [in some cases] flakey economies just to put us in our place ....  


Yeah, maybe you're right ...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			The scenario you paint is unreal. People will never give their Golf Club a two year notice period to quit. If they intend to quit two years hence but renew this year then they are, by definition, still full members and would of course be accorded full membership rights and privileges for that year. At such juncture they have only threatened to leave.

The only reason the Brexit strategy is protracted over a two-year period is because the process quite simply takes that long or possibly even longer.

We have effectively resigned from Club EU and consequently are of no further interest to the board and as we have no long-term intention to remain we will therefore be essentially completely irrelevant and ignored in any such long-term plans Club EU might have.
		
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You were the one using a Golf Club as an example and your scenario was nothing like the process we have with the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2017)

Did not convince at all on Andy Marr yesterday morning.  And today we hear that the reason she was avoiding answering Marr's question about Trident missile test firing was that she knew - and clearly did not know what to say.  As PM she has to be able to think on her feet and not just sound evasive when she knows the truth will out - as it did within 24hrs.

C'mon Theresa - you need to up your game if you are to have any chance with Trump later this week - and by God - whatever I think of you - we need you to do your very best for us and do a bit of very plain speaking with him - and not be fawning to him hoping to become his 'best friend'.  You must not become his best friend because as we all know and what history tells us

_He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon_


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## MegaSteve (Jan 23, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			C'mon Theresa - you need to up your game if you are to have any chance with Trump later this week - and by God - whatever I think of you - we need you to do your very best for us and do a bit of very plain speaking with him - and not be fawning to him hoping to become his 'best friend'.  You must not become his best friend because as we all know and what history tells us

_He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon_

Click to expand...



To be honest I'd be a whole lot more concerned if she [as a career politician] was on her way to have tea and biscuits with another career politician [Hilary]... That's when the stitch ups start from...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2017)

And so how has she done in Trumptown...?


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so how has she done in Trumptown...?
		
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Go on then, I'll bite.

I thought she gave a great performance, cutting in from the left. Threw a great dummy on the right back then slotted it under the keeper as he came off his line.


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## chrisd (Jan 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Go on then, I'll bite.

I thought she gave a great performance, cutting in from the left. Threw a great dummy on the right back then slotted it under the keeper as he came off his line.
		
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Then ripped her shirt off, waved it round and round over head before getting cautioned by the man in black!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

So PM how did you get on with the guy that two months ago you called, inexperienced, stupid and plain wrong?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So PM how did you get on with the guy that two months ago you called, inexperienced, stupid and plain wrong?
		
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"I'm a Politician"


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2017)

Well... she went, the BBC and Guardian complain that she did.

Had she not, they would have scolded lack of action.

Anyone familiar with the "man in the arena" speech?


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2017)

I am starting to get unhappy with her. BBC says she is setting up a trade talk with Turkey - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

Well, 1st she visits the US where the new president is manipulating the press with alternative facts, where journalists get arrested when covering a protest, ...
Now Turkey is next where journalists and opposition politicians get arrested on a regular basis, ...

I am going down to Ladbrokes and putting some money on North Korea being next.

I hope sh isn't trying to get any inspiration while she is talking to those guys.


My 1 hope on brexit is that the UK is putting some decency in front of pure deal hashing. Well, it looks like they are going for scraping the barrel instead.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

larmen said:



			I am starting to get unhappy with her. BBC says she is setting up a trade talk with Turkey - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

Well, 1st she visits the US where the new president is manipulating the press with alternative facts, where journalists get arrested when covering a protest, ...
Now Turkey is next where journalists and opposition politicians get arrested on a regular basis, ...

I am going down to Ladbrokes and putting some money on North Korea being next.

I hope sh isn't trying to get any inspiration while she is talking to those guys.


My 1 hope on brexit is that the UK is putting some decency in front of pure deal hashing. Well, it looks like they are going for scraping the barrel instead.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, it's sobering to see the UK as other nations see us.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 28, 2017)

I can't believe she got suckered into holding hands with him.

What on earth were "her people" thinking allowing that to happen?

I can see it coming back to haunt her again and again and again and again.

It's a satirist's gift &#128512;


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks for that, it's sobering to see the UK as other nations see us.
		
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We have been selling arms to anyone who can afford to pay .

arms used against civilians.

arms used against our own soldiers.

its a bit late to be getting ethical.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			We have been selling arms to anyone who can afford to pay .

arms used against civilians.

arms used against our own soldiers.

its a bit late to be getting ethical.
		
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I was not getting ethical, far from that


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds like our PM did OK.  Well done Ma'am.

But, if you can, please try and not look so blushingly coy when he is complementing you.  And as far as him holding your hand.  Do you think he'd try that on with Angela Merkel?  Just be careful with him.  He is devious and controlling, and will whisper sweet nothings in your ear to ingratiate himself with you.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounds like our PM did OK.  Well done Ma'am.

But, if you can, please try and not look so blushingly coy when he is complementing you.  And as far as him holding your hand.  Do you think he'd try that on with Angela Merkel?  Just be careful with him.  He is devious and controlling, and will whisper sweet nothings in your ear to ingratiate himself with you.
		
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Sounds like you have an intimate knowledge of him 

It looked to me like he held her hand to support her down some steps.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

larmen said:



			I am starting to get unhappy with her. BBC says she is setting up a trade talk with Turkey - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

Well, 1st she visits the US where the new president is manipulating the press with alternative facts, where journalists get arrested when covering a protest, ...
Now Turkey is next where journalists and opposition politicians get arrested on a regular basis, ...

I am going down to Ladbrokes and putting some money on North Korea being next.

I hope sh isn't trying to get any inspiration while she is talking to those guys.


My 1 hope on brexit is that the UK is putting some decency in front of pure deal hashing. Well, it looks like they are going for scraping the barrel instead.
		
Click to expand...

If Governments too that line then we no country would do business with another.  IMO your view is naive.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 28, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It looked to me like he held her hand to support her down some steps.
		
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This may (ouch) well have been right, but I really can't believe that she committed (or was allowed to commit) such a schoolgirl error allowing herself to be photographed in a way that could be portrayed as otherwise.

Shows an appalling lack of judgement and or lack of modern media awareness.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounds like our PM did OK.  Well done Ma'am.

But, if you can, please try and not look so blushingly coy when he is complementing you.  And as far as him holding your hand.  Do you think he'd try that on with Angela Merkel?  Just be careful with him.  He is devious and controlling, and will whisper sweet nothings in your ear to ingratiate himself with you.
		
Click to expand...

If I was her I'd be counting my fingers and rings in case he pocketed one. Sly old dog


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds like you have an intimate knowledge of him 

It looked to me like he held her hand to support her down some steps.
		
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As I posted elsewhere - I do watch a lot of US political commentary on Youtube.

But fair enough - if you think he is actually straightforward and pretty transparent - though I'm not sure how these qualities fit with 'the great negotiator'.

And as this thread is about Theresa May -  I'm actually being complementary to her.  I'm guessing you can't actually believe that I could be.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			This may (ouch) well have been right, but I really can't believe that she committed (or was allowed to commit) such a schoolgirl error allowing herself to be photographed in a way that could be portrayed as otherwise.

Shows an appalling lack of judgement and or lack of modern media awareness.
		
Click to expand...

Having watched the video of what happened shouldn't we be criticising those that are portraying it as something it isn't rather than Theresa May for what was to my mind something totally innocent. I'm sure that if we looked through videos of Obama, Cameron, Sturgeon, Blair or any other world leader we could take a still shot from that video and make it look like something it wasn't.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 28, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Having watched the video of what happened shouldn't we be criticising those that are portraying it as something it isn't rather than Theresa May for what was to my mind something totally innocent. I'm sure that if we looked through videos of Obama, Cameron, Sturgeon, Blair or any other world leader we could take a still shot from that video and make it look like something it wasn't.
		
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That's my point exactly. It probably was nothing at all, but the lack of any photographic evidence depicting possible similar moments with those you mention only serves to point out Mrs May's naive handling of such a potentially embarrassing situation. She has allowed herself to be done up like a kipper.

She needs to surround herself with people who are considerably more modern media savvy than the current encumbents in that position who have failed miserably. 

Irrespective of how well she performed in the press conference someone needs to enlighten her on the longstanding concept of one picture saying more than 1000 words.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			That's my point exactly. It probably was nothing at all, but the lack of any photographic evidence depicting possible similar moments with those you mention only serves to point out Mrs May's naive handling of such a potentially embarrassing situation. She has allowed herself to be done up like a kipper.

She needs to surround herself with people who are considerably more modern media savvy than the current encumbents in that position who have failed miserably. 

Irrespective of how well she performed in the press conference someone needs to enlighten her on the longstanding concept of one picture saying more than 1000 words.
		
Click to expand...

Or you are grossly exaggerating what actually happened as it suits your agenda.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2017)

jp5 said:



			It's an absolute disgrace how this unelected PM is portraying our once great nation to the world
		
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Balderdash! You know very well that PMs are not elected by a General Election.  Do you have problems understanding the way the British Parliamentary system works or are you just being obtuse to suit your agenda.

I also question your suggestion that this Nation was once great.  Why is it not now great and if so what has made it less great?


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## teetime75 (Jan 29, 2017)

It looked to me like he held her hand to support her down some steps.[/QUOTE]

Apparently the opposite is true.

Trump supposedly has a condition called Bathophobia (a fear
of slopes and stairs-Sunday Express-)


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## delc (Jan 29, 2017)

Unfortunately, neither of the two main party leaders seem to be up to the job. The only good thing about Jeremy Corbyn is that he makes Theresa May look vaguely competent in comparison! &#128580;


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2017)

delc said:



			Unfortunately, neither of the two main party leaders seem to be up to the job. The only good thing about Jeremy Corbyn is that he makes Theresa May look vaguely competent in comparison! &#63044;
		
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Do not feed!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

I posted




			... Just be careful with him. He is devious and controlling, and will whisper sweet nothings in your ear to ingratiate himself with you.
		
Click to expand...

...and posted against that was




			Sounds like you have an intimate knowledge of him
		
Click to expand...

We didn't have to wait long to discover.  

Trump got generally approving words at the press conference and then saw the back of our PM - and before you could as much take a deep breath - he signs the Executive Order that essentially is banning Muslims from seven countries entering the US and bans all Syrian refuges for good.  And I note of course that he has no significant financial interest these countries whilst he does in other Islamic countries not banned - including loans from Saudi he has outstanding.

Our PM has been suckered.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

Our PM lets Hammond go through with his NICS increase - and that's looking good is it not.  I thought her main characteristics were control and attention to detail .  Hmmm.

I continue to give her the benefit of the doubt - just.  

But I am becoming more convinced she's uncertain about herself and tends to go with the last forceful voice she hears.  She is going with Davis's Brexit approach as that is the line of least resistance for her - and likewise with Hammond's budget


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## Hobbit (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our PM lets Hammond go through with his NICS increase - and that's looking good is it not.  I thought her main characteristics were control and attention to detail .  Hmmm.

I continue to give her the benefit of the doubt - just.  

But I am becoming more convinced she's uncertain about herself and tends to go with the last forceful voice she hears.  She is going with Davis's Brexit approach as that is the line of least resistance for her - and likewise with Hammond's budget
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe she trusts her Cabinet Ministers.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our PM lets Hammond go through with his NICS increase - and that's looking good is it not.  I thought her main characteristics were control and attention to detail .  Hmmm.

I continue to give her the benefit of the doubt - just.  

But I am becoming more convinced she's uncertain about herself and tends to go with the last forceful voice she hears.  She is going with Davis's Brexit approach as that is the line of least resistance for her - and likewise with Hammond's budget
		
Click to expand...

Why not write and tell her?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Why not write and tell her?
		
Click to expand...

Tell her what?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe she trusts her Cabinet Ministers.
		
Click to expand...

Well she didn't do that well with Hammond on the NICS front.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Tell her what?
		
Click to expand...

That you dont rate her in the job


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## Hobbit (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well she didn't do that well with Hammond on the NICS front.
		
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In your opinion. 

Lots of people are are happy to see income tax rise to pay for things like the NHS but baulk at raising NI for a group of people who many acknowledge scam the system by taking cash payments and not declaring them.

A manifesto pledge broken? Wow! Manifesto pledges are broken by every government. And let's face it, as you often have said in the past, way less than 50% voted for the Tories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

And there is the Daily mail and the Sun screaming blue murder over this and 18 MPs already openly stating they'd vote against this - but why?  Never mind that the amount the measure raises is relatively piffling - the amount it costs individuals amounts to coppers a day.  Indeed most will be slightly better off with the raising of the tax free allowance to Â£11,500.

But I'm guessing this outrage is all confected, with the DM; the Sun and these MPs wanting Hammond hounded out of office for 'breaking a manifesto pledge'  as if the government hasn't already broken one biggie with the pledge to stay in the EU and that there was no mention of Grammar Schools.  

No - perhaps this is indeed just a ploy to get rid of Hammond because he just isn't Brexit-hard enough, and if the DM and the Sun make loud enough noises about 'broken pledges' and also feign anger at the Tories - then - yup - May needs these papers back on side and so she will re-shuffle Hammond off so that she can get a Brexit-toughie in place - come on down Andrea Leadsom - after all were you not going to be Chancellor to Boris's PM?

Job done.  It's all about Brexit you see.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			That you dont rate her in the job
		
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I said I'm still willing to give her benefit of the doubt.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2017)

Ever thought of doing stand up comedy?


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I said I'm still willing to give her benefit of the doubt.
		
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Im sure she'd be pleased to know that!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Ever thought of doing stand up comedy?
		
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Sorry - what's so funny?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Im sure she'd be pleased to know that!
		
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You said *I don't rate her.  If you do rate her why don't you tell her.  I'm sure she'll be equally as delighted to know that as she would be to know that I'm still OK with her - partly because the alternatives are....erm...Johnson - God forbid.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			'breaking a manifesto pledge'  as if the government hasn't already broken one biggie with the pledge to stay in the EU
		
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Have you got a link to where in the manifesto they said that they would stay in the EU? The manifesto contains a pledge to have a referendum on membership of the EU and also to "protect business interests in the single market" but I can't find any pledge that says they will remain in the EU.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You said *I don't rate her.  If you do rate her why don't you tell her.  I'm sure she'll be equally as delighted to know that as she would be to know that I'm still OK with her - partly because the alternatives are....erm...Johnson - God forbid.
		
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As always, time will be her judge. I just find it amusing that your style of posting appears that it really matters what you think. Unless she resigns or calls an election she is PM until the next election and whoever is elected Brexit will still happen. If i like her, i will vote for my Tory candidate at the appropriate time and hope that they have a working majority.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2017)

An impressive speech by Theresa May in response to the attack today. I know that it was almost certainly written for her but even so it was delivered very well. Is she growing into the role or has she simply done the minimum expected of the PM in such a situation?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			An impressive speech by Theresa May in response to the attack today. I know that it was almost certainly written for her but even so it was delivered very well. Is she growing into the role or has she simply done the minimum expected of the PM in such a situation?
		
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It's the minimum in my opinion and the comments regarding the police ring a little hollow given her previous.  Tobias Ellwood was far more impressive.


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## larmen (Mar 22, 2017)

I am not sure if you can judge a leader by a given speech. Even Trump managed to do something fairly decent (in terms of delivery, no idea about content) when he addressed congress recently. An hour later he was just Trump again.

The next days, how she manages the crisis, and how she delivers article 50, will really show how she is.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2017)

Tough day for PM yesterday too but that's the job. She did ok with her speech, did have conviction but she needs to be able to speak without constant looks to what's written particularly for a very short speech of high emotion, as soon as you see her looking down and messing up a pronunciation of a couple of words suddently it doesn't seem as heartfelt as it's perceived as not her words or thoughts but those of another. This was a skill her predecessor Cameron had (and which won him the Tory leadership) and which Obama had too, watching public would prefer a leader to orate and perhaps have long pauses (think Obama) whilst carefully considering words without looking like its so rehearsed.....imo. Not knocking her but it's a leadership skill she needs to develop imo.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2017)

She's by far the best we've got, irrespective of which party. And she held the Home Office brief very well. I expect more from her but, equally, recognise she's taken on a job at a very difficult time.


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## IanM (Mar 23, 2017)

Well up to the job..... according to some folk I have been working with recently who spend quite a bit of time with her


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2017)

I thought her speech to the HoC was good enough.  She said what she had to say but - IMO - just slightly overdid it, and her delivery tone was a little bit over emotive and could have maybe been a little bit unemotionally firmer - and as she was reading it it didn't seemed particularly authentic though she tried to sound authentic.

She's still got a bit to go to get to where I thought she was when she became PM - yesterday's speeches didn't change my view of her strengths and weaknesses.

6/10 for yesterday


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought her speech to the HoC was good enough.  She said what she had to say but - IMO - just slightly overdid it, and her delivery tone was a little bit over emotive and could have maybe been a little bit unemotionally firmer - and as she was reading it it didn't seemed particularly authentic though she tried to sound authentic.

She's still got a bit to go to get to where I thought she was when she became PM - yesterday's speeches didn't change my view of her strengths and weaknesses.

6/10 for yesterday
		
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Sums up my opinion pretty well!

I actually think (but it's only an impression, so not 100% convinced) that she is handling the PM job better than she handled being Home Secretary post! Maybe it's because she can now dictate policy, instead of just proposing it then having to convince other sectors!


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Sums up my opinion pretty well!

I actually think (but it's only an impression, so not 100% convinced) that she is handling the PM job better than she handled being Home Secretary post! Maybe it's because she can now dictate policy, instead of just proposing it then having to convince other sectors!
		
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I guess,  no matter the circumstances, you and SILH were going to critise. Sad to take a 'standard' diplomatic speech as a cheapest  means to side-swipe.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			She's by far the best we've got, irrespective of which party. And she held the Home Office brief very well. I expect more from her but, equally, recognise she's taken on a job at a very difficult time.
		
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This  ^^^^^^^^^


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2017)

Thought she has handled the last two days well and there's no preparation you can get to deal with this type of incident until it happens. Think she's doing a good job.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2017)

drdel said:



			I guess,  no matter the circumstances, you and SILH were going to critise. Sad to take a 'standard' diplomatic speech as a cheapest  means to side-swipe.
		
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I'd suggest that it's not a cheap side swipe to make a comment about May's performance over the last couple of days on a thread that is *specifically* about how well she is doing.  IMO she is not doing as well as I thought she would do.  And because she has not had to make her across-the-board case to the 'British People' in a General Election as leader of the Tories I just don't _get _her at the moment.

I *want* TM to do better.  Because I *want *her to be PM for ALL of the country, and not just the small majority who voted to leave the EU.  Because at the moment that is all she is to me.  And I think she is more and better than that.

Anyway I gave her 6/10 - which surely shows that I am more thumbs up to her over the last couple of days than thumbs down.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd suggest that it's not a cheap side swipe to make a comment about May's performance over the last couple of days on a thread that is *specifically* about how well she is doing.  IMO she is not doing as well as I thought she would do.  And because she has not had to make her across-the-board case to the 'British People' in a General Election as leader of the Tories I just don't _get _her at the moment.

I *want* TM to do better.  Because I *want *her to be PM for ALL of the country, and not just the small majority who voted to leave the EU.  Because at the moment that is all she is to me.  And I think she is more and better than that.

Anyway I gave her 6/10 - which surely shows that I am more thumbs up to her over the last couple of days than thumbs down.
		
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She will never satisfy your blind prejudice for anything Tory or Brexit.  I am not saying this just to take a swipe at you I am saying it because its sadly true.  Unfortunately you have created a situation where many look at your posts and only see your bias rather than anything you try to articulate.   Pity really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			She will never satisfy your blind prejudice for anything Tory or Brexit.  I am not saying this just to take a swipe at you I am saying it because its sadly true.  Unfortunately you have created a situation where many look at your posts and only see your bias rather than anything you try to articulate.   Pity really.
		
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hmmmm - ah well.  I want TM to do well because the future of the UK depends upon her doing well.  If post-PM May she is deemed to have been a poor PM then you can be pretty sure Brexit will have been a mess.  And I want Brexit to succeed as best May and her Merry Men can manage - though I think her Lancaster House speech was a mistake as it tied her hands in many respects of Brexit.  But that was her choice.

Also please note that given my *assumed *leaning towards Scottish Independence, then following your logic of bias I would want TM and Brexit to fail spectacularly - and I don't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2017)

Sorry Theresa May.  You've blown it for me.  Immoderate, ruthless and duplicitous.  And I am afraid that I don't trust you an inch.  You won't go on TV because you will be found out without a script - and you cannot look folks straight in the eyes because you know you are not telling the truth.    Sleep well with your conscience.


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## Crazyface (Apr 19, 2017)

Dunno about that, but she has gone down in my estimation. She had a majority and a task to perform and has messed about for too long. I don't know why she's called this election, it will only delay everything and cause more unrest and more blooming debate about Brexit. We've had a damn vote that let the people speak and you're not following their instructions. That Tim Farron wants to shut the heck up as well. What a moron.
TM you are an idiot.  Jezza? Good grief. Labour voters what the hell have you done??? You must be kicking yourselves now!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 19, 2017)

I think she has played an ace card. 

Labour are are in turmoil.

Scotland, that's the big one. Trouble is read the previous sentance on Labour. Are or will the Labour Party be a credible opposition for SNP. 

WEE Jimmy Krankie aka Nicola will never get a better chance for independence. Is that what the Scots want though.

The election will be about more than just Brexit, and I don't just mean policies. It means personalities or the lack of a personality in Corbyns case.

Brexit was won, but since that day a large amount of people have not been able to accept, agree, want, or whatever the outcome of that vote. This election should finally put to rest any doubt that we are leaving the EU and labour, lib dems and UKIP behind.

Looking forward to another dozen or so politics posts on here In the next month or so.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 19, 2017)

I can understand why she's has called this. Very soon there are the French and German elections, and no Brexit talks are going to happen until after the German elections. If we had left ours as they were planned, we would then be having a GE smack in the middle of the Brexit dealings and that would have been bloody stupid. 
Lets forget the fact that Corbyn is unelectable and the Liberals lost in the wilderness, by resetting our parliament now we should have a constant set of heads going into the Brexit stuff.

The only good thing I can see for Labour in this is the hope that David Milliband returns to take the reigns of the party and provide the credible opposition the country is crying out for.


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## User62651 (Apr 19, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			Dunno about that, but she has gone down in my estimation. She had a majority and a task to perform and has messed about for too long. I don't know why she's called this election, it will only delay everything and cause more unrest and more blooming debate about Brexit. We've had a damn vote that let the people speak and you're not following their instructions. That Tim Farron wants to shut the heck up as well. What a moron.
TM you are an idiot.  Jezza? Good grief. Labour voters what the hell have you done??? You must be kicking yourselves now!
		
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Like it or not Tim Farron is now potentially the political voice for a great many people across UK as pro UK and proEU and a centrist view. He's not a moron, he has conviction. Heard him a lot over the past couple of years and imo speaks a lot of sense. I hope they win plenty seats back at Conservative expense. A strong opposition is essential for democracy and Labour aren't providing it.


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry Theresa May.  You've blown it for me.  Immoderate, ruthless and duplicitous.  And I am afraid that I don't trust you an inch.  You won't go on TV because you will be found out without a script - and you cannot look folks straight in the eyes because you know you are not telling the truth.    Sleep well with your conscience.
		
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Crazyface said:



			Dunno about that, but she has gone down in my estimation. She had a majority and a task to perform and has messed about for too long. I don't know why she's called this election, it will only delay everything and cause more unrest and more blooming debate about Brexit. We've had a damn vote that let the people speak and you're not following their instructions. That Tim Farron wants to shut the heck up as well. What a moron.
TM you are an idiot.  Jezza? Good grief. Labour voters what the hell have you done??? You must be kicking yourselves now!
		
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While I'm inclined to think SILH has a point, that's pretty much 'par for the course' for all politicians! So no particular criticism - except for the even higher than normal level of hypocrisy  - from me for her move! She is currently struggling to get her Brexit legislation through either/both houses! There are sufficient 'doubters' in her own party to spoil the simple progress in The Commons and The Lords has a considerable amount of opposition to it, from all areas! She is likely to continue to have these issues throughout this parliament! By calling the election and including the implementation of Brexit in the manifesto, if she achieves a majority, particularly if it's sizable, then she not only reduces/eliminates opposition within her own party and Parliament, but also likely to knobble, or at least severely curtail, opposition in The Lords - as manifesto commitments are (generally!) treated pretty mildly in that House!

So a canny tactic - if something of a risk.

And certainly a remarkably unsubtle 'about face'!

First step, of course, will be to get the necessary 2/3rds vote in The Commons! I'm not sure whether it was wise for Corbyn to commit to backing the election! Assuming the polls are even somewhere near correct, Labour likely to lose a significant number of seats and he is likely to have to resign, or at least fight (another) leadership battle!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			I think she has played an ace card. 

Labour are are in turmoil.

Scotland, that's the big one. Trouble is read the previous sentance on Labour. Are or will the Labour Party be a credible opposition for SNP. 

WEE Jimmy Krankie aka Nicola will never get a better chance for independence. Is that what the Scots want though.

The election will be about more than just Brexit, and I don't just mean policies. It means personalities or the lack of a personality in Corbyns case.

Brexit was won, but since that day a large amount of people have not been able to accept, agree, want, or whatever the outcome of that vote. This election should finally put to rest any doubt that we are leaving the EU and labour, lib dems and UKIP behind.

Looking forward to another dozen or so politics posts on here In the next month or so.
		
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My issue though Tashyboy is I think you're right, but they selfish reasons for the Tories, she is not calling it for the good of the Country, there is nothing new yesterday that she didn't know a week or a month ago.
If she does a good job as PM and the tories as a government then why worry about the next GE in 3 yrs. She has a majority now so there are no need to scaremonger about doubts leaving the EU, if that was issue why not call the GE before triggering Article 50.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			First step, of course, will be to get the necessary 2/3rds vote in The Commons! I'm not sure whether it was wise for Corbyn to commit to backing the election! Assuming the polls are even somewhere near correct, Labour likely to lose a significant number of seats and he is likely to have to resign, or at least fight (another) leadership battle!
		
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Politicians by default have to say they are always ready to fight an election. To do otherwise would suggest cowardice to the electorate. This will sail through.

TM is not a debater or an orator but let's face it we have had a few of them lately and none have left with people wanting them back. She will concentrate on being steady, avoiding confrontation and by looking like a safe pair of hands. Oh yes, the others are all a bit rubbish as well so that helps.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2017)

I wonder when the 19 English Chief Constables will publish the results of any charges brought against the 29 Tory MP's involved in the 2015 general election scandal.

My guess is July 2017.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2017)

You would hope that the use of Battle Buses will be more closely monitored and restricted this time round.


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Politicians by default have to say they are always ready to fight an election. To do otherwise would suggest cowardice to the electorate. This will sail through.
...
		
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I agree!

That doesn't alter the wisdom/foolishness of agreeing to it though!



Lord Tyrion said:



			...
TM is not a debater or an orator but let's face it we have had a few of them lately and none have left with people wanting them back. She will concentrate on being steady, avoiding confrontation and by looking like a safe pair of hands. Oh yes, the others are all a bit rubbish as well so that helps.
		
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Cameron was an excellent 'debater', though not a great orator! May is currently too much a 'message pusher' and 'reader', though that may improve. She still wollops Corbyn in either area though! Dennis Skinner could well have made a 'better' (though equally unelectable) leader than Corbyn!  - Certainly a more 'interesting' one!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2017)

A two year old could wallop Corbyn, it is not a challenge. Skinner is a wonderful speaker. One of the breed like Tony Benn. Cracking local MP's, good people to hold govts to account but should never, ever be in positions of real power.

TM needs to go on a speaking course. She is too stiff, not natural. I find her uncomfortable to watch when she tries to go on the offensive or deliver a party political message. She is fine when she is giving a straight message but limited otherwise. Luckily for her she does not get exposed as Jezza is so poor. I can certainly understand why she would not want to go near a televised debate.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			I agree!

That doesn't alter the wisdom/foolishness of agreeing to it though!



*Cameron was an excellent 'debater',* though not a great orator! May is currently too much a 'message pusher' and 'reader', though that may improve. She still wollops Corbyn in either area though! Dennis Skinner could well have made a 'better' (though equally unelectable) leader than Corbyn!  - Certainly a more 'interesting' one!! 

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I think Boris Johnson, Dave Davis and Liam Fox work well when they are speaking in large gatherings, some may call them right mass debaters.....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think Boris Johnson, Dave Davis and Liam Fox work well when they are speaking in large gatherings, some may call them right mass debaters.....
		
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Why do you find it necessary to resort to sarcasm in your posts.   When you post sensibly you make some good points and have the ability to state them well.  This sort of nonsense is the lowest form of whit.  Funny sometimes but in your case very overdone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you find it necessary to resort to sarcasm in your posts.   When you post sensibly you make some good points and have the ability to state them well.  This sort of nonsense is the lowest form of whit.  Funny sometimes but in your case very overdone.
		
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Lighten up, it was hilarious and truthful at the same time.

Meanwhile back at Westminster our PM is such a poor debater that even Yvette Cooper can put her in a box.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



*Why do you find it necessary to resort to sarcasm in your posts*.   When you post sensibly you make some good points and have the ability to state them well.  This sort of nonsense is the lowest form of whit.  Funny sometimes but in your case very overdone.
		
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Because people making the same point over and over and over and over again in a bid to have the last word in a pseudo intellectual serious dull way is mostly tedious beyond belief?  Either that or my mummy didn't give me enough hugs when I was young.


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## drdel (Apr 19, 2017)

Sensible timing otherwise there would be a GE right at a crucial time for negotiations which would weaken the UK position.

I'm amazed at the vitriol that some posts show for a person they don't know!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2017)

drdel said:



			Sensible timing otherwise there would be a GE right at a crucial time for negotiations which would weaken the UK position.

*I'm amazed at the vitriol that some posts show for a person they don't know*!
		
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I know, most of them have never met Delc...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lighten up, it was hilarious and truthful at the same time.

Meanwhile back at Westminster our PM is such a poor debater that even Yvette Cooper can put her in a box.
		
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Lighten up yourself. I guess the difference between him and you is he is capable of intelligent posts.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 19, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			My issue though Tashyboy is I think you're right, but they selfish reasons for the Tories, she is not calling it for the good of the Country, there is nothing new yesterday that she didn't know a week or a month ago.
If she does a good job as PM and the tories as a government then why worry about the next GE in 3 yrs. She has a majority now so there are no need to scaremonger about doubts leaving the EU, if that was issue why not call the GE before triggering Article 50.
		
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Exactly,and I nearly started my post by saying
 " what does she know that we don't ".
And am sure she knows something.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because people making the same point over and over and over and over again in a bid to have the last word in a pseudo intellectual serious dull way is mostly tedious beyond belief?  Either that or my mummy didn't give me enough hugs when I was young.
		
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What difference does it make to you if others want to have a long and even repeated debate, surely that's up to them.  Reading it is not compulsory so there is no need for anyone to be offended by it or to feel the need to contribute by using sarcasm in a pseudo intellectual manner to mask an inverted feeling of superiority.    Don't get me wrong I like a bit of humor, a bit of quick whit and repartee, the old double entendre  and even a mild dose of sarcasm in the right places.   You Sir just overdo it and as I have suggested this is a shame, whether it's a symptom of your upbringing I wouldn't dare to comment.  Oh! wait a minute, that was a bit of sarcasm again, never mind I'll probably get the hang of it eventually.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What difference does it make to you if others want to have a long and even repeated debate, surely that's up to them.*  Reading it is not compulsory* so there is no need for anyone to be offended by it or to feel the need to contribute by using sarcasm in a pseudo intellectual manner to mask an inverted feeling of superiority.    Don't get me wrong I like a bit of humor, a bit of quick whit and repartee, the old double entendre  and even a mild dose of sarcasm in the right places.   You Sir just overdo it and as I have suggested this is a shame, whether it's a symptom of your upbringing I wouldn't dare to comment.  Oh! wait a minute, that was a bit of sarcasm again, never mind I'll probably get the hang of it eventually.
		
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Exactly, physician heal thyself....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Exactly, physician heal thyself....
		
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But I participate in "making the same point over and over and  over and over again in a bid to have the last word in a pseudo  intellectual serious dull way "  and don't drone on about others that do the same, if I didn't like the thread I would keep out of it, bit like the way I do with the Football thread.  My only beef with it is where people post that others are posting on it , if you get my drift. Nothing to heal here old boy!


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Like it or not Tim Farron is now potentially the political voice for a great many people across UK as pro UK and proEU and a centrist view. He's not a moron, he has conviction. Heard him a lot over the past couple of years and imo speaks a lot of sense. I hope they win plenty seats back at Conservative expense. A strong opposition is essential for democracy and Labour aren't providing it.
		
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Just goes to show how political opinions differ. I was chuffed when he became leader but I now find him arrogant and condescending. LibDems have often been my default position for my vote. No chance whilst Farron is there.


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## delc (Apr 20, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Just goes to show how political opinions differ. I was chuffed when he became leader but I now find him arrogant and condescending. LibDems have often been my default position for my vote. No chance whilst Farron is there.
		
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Seems like a nice enough chap to me! &#128512;


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Seems like a nice enough chap to me! &#62976;
		
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Golum. Lost his 'Precious'


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			But I participate in "making the same point over and over and  over and over again in a bid to have the last word in a pseudo  intellectual serious dull way "
		
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In the past , other members have been sanctioned for repeatedly making the same point ad nauseum , so please don't.

By all means have a full debate , but continual repetition kills the thread, so agree to disagree and move on.

Thank you


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In the past , other members have been sanctioned for repeatedly making the same point ad nauseum , so please don't.

By all means have a full debate , but continual repetition kills the thread, so agree to disagree and move on.

Thank you
		
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I used that comment quoting what HK had used as an accusation while doing it himself. I don't actually repeat the same point ad nausiem, some do on here, I dont.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 20, 2017)

It was a general point to all and sundry
Just so you know &#128077;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

Becoming evident to me that that our 'straight-speaking' PM is nothing of the sort - deliberately avoids answering the question and has become cliche-ridden.  Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind I'm afraid - as I was hopeful at the outset...

So I have to ask - as Home Secretary - other than talking tough (to the Police Fed etc) what did she actually achieve, and let's not mention 'immigration'.

And no TV debates because she wants to get out and meet the people?  Someone has to remind her that 'the people' comprises more than Tory voters.


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## jp5 (May 3, 2017)

Would be quite something if they've misjudged the public mood and May's avoidance strategy comes back to bite her. Not impossible.


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## User62651 (May 3, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Would be quite something if they've misjudged the public mood and May's avoidance strategy comes back to bite her. Not impossible.
		
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Last year when Cameron stood down, it was an absolute relief to get 'steady' Theresa May in ahead of Gove, Fox, Leadsom, Johnson and one or two other pretenders. However nearly a year in I think she's a terrible appointment as PM/Tory leader. Makes Cameron look like a great leader. She is in way over her head imo, doesn't have the political skills or backing to steer UK forward, she's way more divisive than Cameron or Major at a time when unity is needed through compromise and inclusivity. Her GE campaign to date has been embarrassing. Trouble is who's better?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Last year when Cameron stood down, it was an absolute relief to get 'steady' Theresa May in ahead of Gove, Fox, Leadsom, Johnson and one or two other pretenders. However nearly a year in I think she's a terrible appointment as PM/Tory leader. Makes Cameron look like a great leader. She is in way over her head imo, doesn't have the political skills or backing to steer UK forward, she's way more divisive than Cameron or Major at a time when unity is needed through compromise and inclusivity. Her GE campaign to date has been embarrassing. Trouble is who's better?
		
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This I fully agree with.  I was hopeful for her as much because she seemed so much better than the rest. A Boris PM plus Leadsome Chancellor anyone?   But I am afraid I think she is pretty awful...

Just as well I don't have anything invested in her or the Tories - pity about Brexit mind as that's going to hurt us all - all that is bar the wealthiest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

And so just minutes ago our PM in 10 Downing Street makes it obvious that this is a 'presidential' election - and not a party election - by rolling out the cliches - I paraphrase

_There are two people who can lead the Brexit negotiations - one who will be strong and stable; the other who will lead a hung parliament and a government of confusion and chaos_

Pleeeeaze dear PM - give us a break from these cliches.  They are OK as newspaper headlines but useless when you are asked to explain the detail.


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## jp5 (May 3, 2017)

May accuses Brussels of attempting to interfere with the election. 

That'll go down well


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## Hacker Khan (May 3, 2017)

jp5 said:



			May accuses Brussels of attempting to interfere with the election. 

That'll go down well 

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The Russians will be furious, getting usurped by a non-elected federal waste of money.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

We should think ourselves lucky that at least May doesn't seem to be rambling around, incoherent and in a confused mental state - how Donald Trump has been described following a series of interviews these last 2-3 days.


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## larmen (May 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We should think ourselves lucky that at least May doesn't seem to be rambling around, incoherent and in a confused mental state - how Donald Trump has been described following a series of interviews these last 2-3 days.
		
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I actually started to thing that Boris would have been the better option. At least he can eat chips an look human doing it.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2017)

The twitter picture of May smoking a fag with a can of special brew in one hand and a poke o chips in the other was quite amusing.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2017)

Great to see our Prime Minister standing up to the EU Bully Boys.  She's exactly what we need at this time to stand our corner and not grovel for crumbs like the rest of out political numbskulls are suggesting.  

Strong and Stable leadership.  Just the ticket :thup:


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## User62651 (May 3, 2017)

Alarming behaviour from PM with that unsubstantiated anti EU tripe spouted from No 10 earlier. Desperate woman seeing her silly GE plan to use Brexit for personal gain coming apart.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Great to see our Prime Minister standing up to the EU Bully Boys.  She's exactly what we need at this time to stand our corner and not grovel for crumbs like the rest of out political numbskulls are suggesting.  

Strong and Stable leadership.  Just the ticket :thup:
		
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No point in being strong and stable if you are also clueless.

My grand children seem to have better negotiating skills than May.
They know that when they stamp their feet and yell they won't get a thing.


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## Hacker Khan (May 3, 2017)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...ble-says-may-in-interview-slip-20170421126362


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## drdel (May 3, 2017)

Just because she knows when to keep her mouth shut and not tittle tattle about meetings to the press doesn't mean she's ignorant - in my view, when starting to negotiate, its a good idea not to leak an ongoing commentary.


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## delc (May 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Great to see our Prime Minister standing up to the EU Bully Boys.  She's exactly what we need at this time to stand our corner and not grovel for crumbs like the rest of out political numbskulls are suggesting.  

Strong and Stable leadership.  Just the ticket :thup:
		
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Who wants to live in a Stable?  :mmm:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Great to see our Prime Minister standing up to the EU Bully Boys.  She's exactly what we need at this time to stand our corner and not grovel for crumbs like the rest of out political numbskulls are suggesting.  

Strong and Stable leadership.  Just the ticket :thup:
		
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Oh so strong and stable.  How about rather silly and counter-productive as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2017)

drdel said:



			Just because she knows when to keep her mouth shut and not tittle tattle about meetings to the press doesn't mean she's ignorant - in my view, when starting to negotiate, its a good idea not to leak an ongoing commentary.
		
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And let the other side control the reporting of the negotiations.  The EU team will have to give a 'running commentary' on how things are going from their perspective as they have to keep 27 governments informed.


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## drdel (May 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And let the other side control the reporting of the negotiations.  The EU team will have to give a 'running commentary' on how things are going from their perspective as they have to keep 27 governments informed.
		
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Communications among 27 member states through the media! Surely that's not a serious comment.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh so strong and stable.  How about rather silly and counter-productive as well.
		
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I'm not talking about Corbyn or Farron.


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## shagster (May 4, 2017)

strong and stable my arse
doesnt have a clue
rambled on in march about no general election, panics and calls one
was it because of impending fraud cases and maybe by-election
the country voted for eu exit and corbyn has reiterated it so showing strong leadership
may will increase taxes as most tory goverments do
she will take away pension increases - wow great leadership - not


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2017)

shagster said:



*strong and stable my arse*
doesnt have a clue
rambled on in march about no general election, panics and calls one
was it because of impending fraud cases and maybe by-election
the country voted for eu exit and corbyn has reiterated it so showing strong leadership
may will increase taxes as most tory goverments do
she will take away pension increases - wow great leadership - not
		
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We wil take your word for that!


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## delc (May 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh so strong and stable.  How about rather silly and counter-productive as well.
		
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If she utters the words 'strong and stable' once more, I swear I shall scream! &#128580;


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## shagster (May 4, 2017)

she sure isn't talking about her party
still as divided as ever
do not worry though there is enough who believe their BS


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## delc (May 4, 2017)

shagster said:



			she sure isn't talking about her party
still as divided as ever
do not worry though there is enough who believe their BS
		
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Weak and wobbly more like! &#128580;


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2017)

I saw the latest Tory 'Bus' poster and quickly read it as ..........'vote for us as we are more likely to drop bombs on folk'.

I thought it was a spoof.


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## User62651 (May 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw the latest Tory 'Bus' poster and quickly read it as ..........'vote for us as we are more likely to drop bombs on folk'.

I thought it was a spoof.

Click to expand...

Saw that too, the fact that is being used as a promotion of a political party is really really worrying.


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw the latest Tory 'Bus' poster and quickly read it as ..........'vote for us as we are more likely to drop bombs on folk'.

I thought it was a spoof.

Click to expand...

If that isn't a spoof, its distasteful in the extreme. A guaranteed vote loser.


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## Hacker Khan (May 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw the latest Tory 'Bus' poster and quickly read it as ..........'vote for us as we are more likely to drop bombs on folk'.

I thought it was a spoof.

Click to expand...

Nope, it's real, the usual suspects love it.  But there are some good partial grabs of it, this is my favourite.


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## Hacker Khan (May 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If that isn't a spoof, its distasteful in the extreme. *A guaranteed vote loser*.
		
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I'd like to think so but I doubt it, it's catnip for the hard right


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2017)

shagster said:



			she sure isn't talking about her party
still as divided as ever
*do not worry though there is enough who believe their BS*

Click to expand...

And yours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			And yours.
		
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I think that you understand the difference in the audience for any BS that @shagster might spout and the BS that our PM might spout - I am sure that you don't need to have the difference explained


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, it's real, the usual suspects love it.  But there are some good partial grabs of it, this is my favourite.

View attachment 22564

Click to expand...

My silly boy side loved the old Tory billboard poster that said 'Labour isn't Working'.
Overnight loads of Labour activists [yes they had then in those days] went out with a bit of blue paint and covered over the 'n't' bit.

[For the UKIP voters] That turned it into Labour is Working.


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## Hacker Khan (May 4, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Saw that too, the fact that is being used as a promotion of a political party is really really worrying.
		
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Nothing says modern progressive Britain more than 2 old white men standing next to a poster of a bomb trying to encourage you to vote for them.


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you understand the difference in the audience for any BS that @shagster might spout and the BS that our PM might spout - I am sure that you don't need to have the difference explained
		
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 Difference is that IMO she talks a lot of truth and common sense.  He doesn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2017)

This did not go down well with one of here own Tory voting constituents........bit of an insight to weak and wobbly 

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This did not go down well with one of here own Tory voting constituents........bit of an insight to weak and wobbly 

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

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Tittle Tattle!   Right down your street Doom, seems like you are getting paranoid in your desperation to dig up any bits of balderdash to support your insecurities.   Give in to the inevitable, you know it will make you feel better


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2017)

I am still not at all clear who our PM thinks the EU is trying to influence the GE in favour of.  Surely if anything the EU would want whichever party wins the GE to have as large a majority as possible as that strengthens the PMs hand - not so much in the negotiations with the EU - but in being able to sell 'internally' a 'less than the most severe' Brexit Deal - as that is the sort of deal the EU will want. 

As the Tories are 100% going to win the election, the EU would therefore want the Tories to have as large a majority as possible - to enable the PM to marginalise the influence of the harder Brexit faction of her party.

So in respect of her statement May was either confused; being manipulated; or being cynical and playing dog-whistle politics -
 painting the EU as baddies and so protecting herself against fall-out when a decent deal is hard to find.

Any - back to the main question.  If May thinks the EU are trying to influence the election - who are they trying to influence it in favour of?


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## Twire (May 5, 2017)

There's not just the one GE. If the French see the EU playing hardball on Brexit it might influence votes for/against Le Pen/Macron.

I'm not understanding your reason for "the EU would therefore want the Tories to have as large a majority as possible". I would think it's the reverse.


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## Hacker Khan (May 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I am still not at all clear who our PM thinks the EU is trying to influence the GE in favour of*.  Surely if anything the EU would want whichever party wins the GE to have as large a majority as possible as that strengthens the PMs hand - not so much in the negotiations with the EU - but in being able to sell 'internally' a 'less than the most severe' Brexit Deal - as that is the sort of deal the EU will want. 

As the Tories are 100% going to win the election, the EU would therefore want the Tories to have as large a majority as possible - to enable the PM to marginalise the influence of the harder Brexit faction of her party.

So in respect of her statement May was either confused; being manipulated; or being cynical and playing dog-whistle politics -
 painting the EU as baddies and so protecting herself against fall-out when a decent deal is hard to find.

Any - back to the main question.  If May thinks the EU are trying to influence the election - who are they trying to influence it in favour of?
		
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It''s just a political move by TMay.  She is increasing the distrust of the EU which plays well with the kipper vote she is after (coincidence she said this a couple of days before the local elections?), plus as seen in the US elections a little bit of paranoia and blaming of the EU/Mexicans/Muslims etc etc seems to be a good vote winning tactic. Creating someone to blame if it all goes wrong.

The Russian embassy are even trolling Tmay about it now now which is quite amusing  http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/praise-god...ocks-mays-eu-election-meddling-claims-1620161


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## IanM (May 5, 2017)

Twire said:



			There's not just the one GE. If the French see the EU playing hardball on Brexit it might influence votes for/against Le Pen/Macron.

I'm not understanding your reason for "the EU would therefore want the Tories to have as large a majority as possible". I would think it's the reverse.
		
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Correct.  It exactly the reverse.  EU need Tory collapse so that the Pro EU Labour/Lib Dems/Scot Nits get in....also EU have been backing Macron (financially if you believe what you read) but The Drunk has been openly backing him in speeches.  

EU have to be as mean as possible to the UK...to discourage other countries from leaving.  Former Eastern Bloc will be offski quickski as soon as the cash stops coming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2017)

Listened again to what Theresa May said about Leave/Remain before the election - and the significant negative security and economic impact that leaving would have on the UK - and her thoughts were not caveated - they were clear and straight,  Leaving would be BAD for the UK.

And I listen to her 'we will fight them on the beaches' 10 Downing Street guff earlier this week and I do not need to wonder whey I have lost the bit of faith I had with her when she was elected.  I was hoping that her position pre-vote would herald a sensible, low risk and compromising approach to the negotiations.  Instead with a completely shameless 180deg volte face (is their any other sort  ) May goes into exploit and self mode - and the majority of the British public seem to accept that and her disingenuity and mendacity with hardly a murmur.   

I can hardly believe it.  But then again I can.  And I have to.  What a very sad state of affairs.


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## Hobbit (May 5, 2017)

To be honest, after listening to that speech on Youtube again today, I think she pitches it very well bearing in mind she's reacting to the Juncker-leaks...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			To be honest, after listening to that speech on Youtube again today, I think she pitches it very well bearing in mind she's reacting to the Juncker-leaks...
		
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I'm comparing what she said with what she said 'before' - and that comparison makes be think that her proclamations of earlier this week and protestations against the EU leaks and views are just a confection for public consumption prior to the local elections of yesterday and the GE.  Because I suspect she knows that the leaks and views of Juncker, Barnier and Tusk are actually pretty close to being spot on.  And as far as them being aimed at influencing the elections - tosh!

_Addressing audience at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in central London.on 25 April 2016

â€œI believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the European Unionâ€¦ Remaining inside the European Union makes us more secure, it makes us more prosperous.â€
_
...and so on...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-campaign-remain-leave-a7655351.html

Her change in position and her rhetoric since June 23rd - and especially most recently - means that I just *cannot *trust a word that Theresa May says, even if I wanted to...how can you - when she has 'changed' as she has.


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## Hobbit (May 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm comparing what she said with what she said 'before' - and that comparison makes be think that her proclamations of earlier this week and protestations against the EU leaks and views are just a confection for public consumption prior to the local elections of yesterday and the GE.  Because I suspect she knows that the leaks and views of Juncker, Barnier and Tusk are actually pretty close to being spot on.  And as far as them being aimed at influencing the elections - tosh!

_Addressing audience at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in central London.on 25 April 2016

â€œI believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the European Unionâ€¦ Remaining inside the European Union makes us more secure, it makes us more prosperous.â€
_
...and so on...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-campaign-remain-leave-a7655351.html

Her change in position and her rhetoric since June 23rd - and especially most recently - means that I just *cannot *trust a word that Theresa May says, even if I wanted to...how can you - when she has 'changed' as she has.
		
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And your lack of trust might just be because you've made assumptions. To quote you, "I suspect." 

Not saying you're wrong but, equally, not saying you're right.


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm comparing what she said with what she said 'before' - and that comparison makes be think that her proclamations of earlier this week and protestations against the EU leaks and views are just a confection for public consumption prior to the local elections of yesterday and the GE.  Because I suspect she knows that the leaks and views of Juncker, Barnier and Tusk are actually pretty close to being spot on.  And as far as them being aimed at influencing the elections - tosh!

_Addressing audience at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in central London.on 25 April 2016

â€œI believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the European Unionâ€¦ Remaining inside the European Union makes us more secure, it makes us more prosperous.â€
_
...and so on...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-campaign-remain-leave-a7655351.html

Her change in position and her rhetoric since June 23rd - and especially most recently - means that I just *cannot *trust a word that Theresa May says, even if I wanted to...how can you - when she has 'changed' as she has.
		
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She has changed because the UK public voted for Brexit and she has accepted their decision and is determined to make the best of it, just like the other Political leaders should be doing rather than trying by any means to thwart democracy.


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## drdel (May 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm comparing what she said with what she said 'before' - and that comparison makes be think that her proclamations of earlier this week and protestations against the EU leaks and views are just a confection for public consumption prior to the local elections of yesterday and the GE.  *Because I suspect she knows that the leaks and views of Juncker, Barnier and Tusk are actually pretty close to being spot on.*  And as far as them being aimed at influencing the elections - tosh!

_Addressing audience at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in central London.on 25 April 2016

â€œI believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the European Unionâ€¦ Remaining inside the European Union makes us more secure, it makes us more prosperous.â€
_
...and so on...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-campaign-remain-leave-a7655351.html

Her change in position and her rhetoric since June 23rd - and especially most recently - means that I just *cannot *trust a word that Theresa May says, even if I wanted to...how can you - when she has 'changed' as she has.
		
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So you are prepared to accept the words of these guys when. These are the same people who have a record of being two faced, if you read the history of the Greek and EU negotiations you will discover that they told the Greeks of their support in private then reversed their views in public. It is a well know EU tactic used with the protection of their unelected positions designed to keep member states in-line and maintain the will and dream of their super-state ambitions where member states are just the means and source of funding.

IMO the language and perspective of your posts are clouded entirely by the dislike of the PM. Tories and the Referendum result - the wood and the trees have merged.


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## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2017)

Strong and Stable...... what he said  

Oh and it is sweary and NSFW.

[video=youtube_share;0M91g4OlGEY]https://youtu.be/0M91g4OlGEY[/video]


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Strong and Stable...... what he said  

Oh and it is sweary and NSFW.

[video=youtube_share;0M91g4OlGEY]https://youtu.be/0M91g4OlGEY[/video]
		
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Balderdash! But you know that already.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Balderdash! But you know that already.
		
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Seemed pretty honest to me, which parts of that are you calling 'balderdash'?


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemed pretty honest to me, which parts of that are you calling 'balderdash'?
		
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The bits you were taken in by.   All of it


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## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2017)

Well it's nice to see at least one country reject nasty right wing politics that leads to increased division, intolerance and a more fractured society.  Vive La France.  

Don't suppose we could learn a lesson from them.....


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it's nice to see at least one country reject nasty right wing politics that leads to increased division, intolerance and a more fractured society.  Vive La France.  

Don't suppose we could learn a lesson from them.....
		
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I hope not. Le Pen came second. At least in the U.K. Farage can't even get elected as an MP.


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## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I hope not. Le Pen came second. At least in the U.K. Farage can't even get elected as an MP.
		
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Who was talking about UKIP?


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Who was talking about UKIP?
		
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You miss my point. France managed to get an ultra right wing candidate through to the final round of a presidential election.

Race riots in Paris. No go areas in Paris. Women barred from bars and restaurants in some suburbs of Paris. France banned the burqa and Burkini, a ban upheld by the ECHR.

And you think France is wonderful? Yeh right...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			She has changed because the UK public voted for Brexit and she has accepted their decision and is determined to make the best of it, just like the other Political leaders should be doing rather than trying by any means to thwart democracy.
		
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Oh for goodness sake just get real and stop ignoring any valid question or concern that is raised - your dismissal of anything that questions May of Brexit, and your blinkered and almost fanatical adherence to the cause it is utterly tedious.  And so your 'balderdash' response above.  Typcal and utterly pointless.

So, putting aside for a moment what a VERY SMALL majority of the electorate think, does May still herself believe that leaving the EU is BAD for the UK?  If she doesn't how come the flip-flop that finds her now trying to stamp out any parliamentary opposition to whatever form of Brexit she thinks will be in her best interests and the best interests of the Tories - with the best interests of the UK seeming to come a distant third.

And whilst you answer that one - what about answering the question on who May thinks the EU are trying to influence in our GE - and why? 

I'm interested to know.

Actually I'm not - because I get nothing to improve my understanding of the Leave rationale or mindset frpom your posts - I actually don't now give a monkeys. You trivialise everything and dismiss in a childish and petulant way anything that doesn't actually fit with your Brexit fantasy world - and frankly I just can't be bothered even wasting 2 secs of my time asking further about this fantasy land - so I'm not going to bother. 

We live in an insular, angry, and what will become a pretty bitter country when the chickens come home to roost as Brexit and immigration controls prove to be anything but the answer to all of the UKs issues.  Listening to Macron this evening I could almost wish I were French.


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh for goodness sake just get real and stop ignoring any valid question or concern that is raised - your dismissal of anything that questions May of Brexit, and your blinkered and almost fanatical adherence to the cause it is utterly 

And whilst you answer that one - what about answering the question on who May thinks the EU are trying to influence in our GE - and why? 

I'm interested to know.
		
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Para 1, substitute You for SR as a Remainer. You are blinkered beyond belief when facts and questions and different opinions are posed.

I would hazard a guess that the EU would want to influence the electorate. And having done so I'm pretty certain that they would love to be negotiating with a party that has little chance of pushing a hard Brexit through Parliament. Not difficult is it really?


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## ColchesterFC (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh for goodness sake just get real and stop ignoring any valid question or concern that is raised - your dismissal of anything that questions May of Brexit, and your blinkered and almost fanatical adherence to the cause it is utterly tedious.
		
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Have you considered that if you change the word "dismissal" to the word "support" in that sentence then that accusation could equally be levelled at yourself? :thup:

EDIT - beaten to it by Hobbit, but glad I'm not the only one that thinks so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have you considered that if you change the word "dismissal" to the word "support" in that sentence then that accusation could equally be levelled at yourself? :thup:
		
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Answers nothing.  I have concerns and questions,  rather than get answers I get my post flung back in my face. Pointless.

So *you *going to explain May's volte face on Leave and also who will benefit from the EU interference in our general election.  How about just having a go.


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## MarkE (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what about answering the question on who May thinks the EU are trying to influence in our GE - and why?
		
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I should imagine that any influence exerted on the GE by the EU, would be to whip up anti May feelings, thereby hopefully decreasing her margin of victory, thereby weakening her negotiation powers on brexit. The bigger the majority the stronger May will be, knowing there's little chance of any agreements being voted against in Parliament.


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## Blue in Munich (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Answers nothing.  *I have concerns and questions,  rather than get answers I get my post flung back in my face.* Pointless.

So *you *going to explain May's volte face on Leave and also who will benefit from the EU interference in our general election.  How about just having a go.
		
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A tactic you are more than happy to employ when it suits you.


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			A tactic you are more than happy to employ when it suits you.
		
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I'm shocked you believe he dodges questions!


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## ColchesterFC (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Answers nothing.  I have concerns and questions,  rather than get answers I get my post flung back in my face. Pointless.

So *you *going to explain May's volte face on Leave and also who will benefit from the EU interference in our general election.  How about just having a go.
		
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With your track record of avoiding answering direct questions I don't think that you are in a position to criticise or start lecturing anyone else for not answering. 

Theresa May as leader of the Tory party is doing what the electorate voted for when they chose to vote to leave the EU. Her personal feelings on the matter are secondary to that. You seem to have already decided what the outcome of the negotiations will be, with the result being a "hard Brexit". I'm prepared to wait and see the results of the negotiations before I start criticising or congratulating the negotiators.

I would agree with Hobbit that the EU would feel that their negotiating position would be stronger against a government that had no chance or very little chance of getting a "hard Brexit" through parliament. Therefore if there was interference from the EU in the election I believe a large Tory majority would be the least desirable outcome to them.

Now perhaps you could answer the questions that were put to you many days ago.....

Do you think that the UK will end up actually paying 100 billion euros, that the EU are currently demanding, to leave the EU?

Do you think that it would be fair for the EU to refuse to share assists that as a nett contributor over many years the UK have paid towards?

Aren't these two things just the EU trying to show how tough they are rather than factual statements on how things will turn out?


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## Blue in Munich (May 7, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			With your track record of avoiding answering direct questions I don't think that you are in a position to criticise or start lecturing anyone else for not answering. 

Theresa May as leader of the Tory party is doing what the electorate voted for when they chose to vote to leave the EU. Her personal feelings on the matter are secondary to that. You seem to have already decided what the outcome of the negotiations will be, with the result being a "hard Brexit". I'm prepared to wait and see the results of the negotiations before I start criticising or congratulating the negotiators.

I would agree with Hobbit that the EU would feel that their negotiating position would be stronger against a government that had no chance or very little chance of getting a "hard Brexit" through parliament. Therefore if there was interference from the EU in the election I believe a large Tory majority would be the least desirable outcome to them.

*Now perhaps you could answer the questions that were put to you many days ago.....*

Do you think that the UK will end up actually paying 100 billion euros, that the EU are currently demanding, to leave the EU?

Do you think that it would be fair for the EU to refuse to share assists that as a nett contributor over many years the UK have paid towards?

Aren't these two things just the EU trying to show how tough they are rather than factual statements on how things will turn out? 


Click to expand...

I wouldn't hold your breathâ€¦â€¦..


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Answers nothing.  I have concerns and questions,  rather than get answers I get my post flung back in my face. Pointless.

So *you *going to explain May's volte face on Leave and also who will benefit from the EU interference in our general election.  How about just having a go.
		
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Why don't you be honest with yourself and us.  You want Brexit to fail and you are making comments that show you cannot give any credence whatsoever to May or the Negotiators. In your mind a successful Brexit would be a disaster as your will is so set against it.   There is a great difference between concern for the outcome and and a desire for it to fail.


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## IanM (May 8, 2017)

New French President walks out to "Ode to Joy" rather than "La Marseillaise."   Pretty much tells you all you need to know.


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## User62651 (May 8, 2017)

IanM said:



			New French President walks out to "Ode to Joy" rather than "La Marseillaise."   Pretty much tells you all you need to know.
		
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Which is?

France chose, you're disappointed but why not respect that decision if you're asking remainers here to respect leave? Democracy and all that.

There is no domino effect of right wing populism in Europe, UK is now cast adrift of the European family of nations in a weak position to negotiate a new trading deal. But we'll all be better off for it as we'll control immigration which will help overstretched public services and have our sovereignty back apparently. Sovereignty won't pay the bills when we're paid less and all our EU imports are tarriffed alas.

Time will tell (along with no end of political spin).


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2017)

IanM said:



			New French President walks out to "Ode to Joy" rather than "La Marseillaise."   Pretty much tells you all you need to know.
		
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Not sure I need to know that at all. I might want us to stay in the EU but I couldn't care less what political statement he's making by having that played. If I were to have an observation I'd say its divisive and disrespectful of the 30+% that didn't vote for him. At least playing the La Maseillaise would have been accepted by both sides.


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## IanM (May 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Which is?
		
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Which is???* NOT *the French national anthem.... spookily.

No disappointment........ I fully respect the French vote.   One criticism of Macron is that he is an EU Puppet... so he dispels that how?  Walks out to the EU Anthem.  Hmmm why would a Trading Cooperative need an National Anthem?


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it's nice to see at least one country reject nasty right wing politics that leads to increased division, intolerance and a more fractured society.  Vive La France.  

Don't suppose we could learn a lesson from them.....
		
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http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/03/rise-nationalists-guide-europe-s-far-right-parties

Think of where Europe was politically 10 years ago, and where they are now. Worryingly, the Far Right is growing across Europe. Maybe if the EU recognises that, before its too late, it might actually listen to message the electorate has been trying to get across for a few years and act on it.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 8, 2017)

IanM said:



			Which is???* NOT *the French national anthem.... spookily.

No disappointment........ I fully respect the French vote.   One criticism of Macron is that he is an EU Puppet... so he dispels that how?  Walks out to the EU Anthem.  Hmmm why would a Trading Cooperative need an National Anthem?

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Even the Champions league has an anthem. People like anthems.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 8, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure I need to know that at all. I might want us to stay in the EU but I couldn't care less what political statement he's making by having that played. If I were to have an observation I'd say its divisive and disrespectful of the 30+% that didn't vote for him. At least playing the La Maseillaise would have been accepted by both sides.
		
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Actually, when all candidates were on the table around 75% of French people did not vote for him. It is only when it got down to him and Le Pen that his share increased. Plenty of people didn't want him but they didn't want Le Pen even more. 

I'm staggered that he did not come out to the French anthem, it is a default thing to do. It unifies.


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## User62651 (May 8, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Actually, when all candidates were on the table around 75% of French people did not vote for him. It is only when it got down to him and Le Pen that his share increased. Plenty of people didn't want him but they didn't want Le Pen even more. 

*I'm staggered that he did not come out to the French anthem, it is a default thing to do. It unifies*.
		
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Marseillaise is controversial, hated in parts of France, doesn't unify as you suggest. Ours doesn't unify here either - religous, monarchic and anti-Scottish all in one and a sleep-inducing dirge to boot.

Didn't Clinton rather successfully use a Fleetwood Mac number for his winning turn?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 8, 2017)

Maxfli - I didn't know that. It just seems that whenever I hear it played everyone seems very passionate, whether at sporting events or on political occasions.

I don't like ours but frankly no one cares about verse 2 and beyond other than people looking to find fault. It is never sung, it is out of date, it is from another age. Flower of Scotland harks back to the same era so there is no high ground there to be taken. No point doing a new UK anthem until we find out who is going to be in it though!


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Marseillaise is controversial, hated in parts of France, doesn't unify as you suggest. Ours doesn't unify here either - religous, monarchic and anti-Scottish all in one and a sleep-inducing dirge to boot.

Didn't Clinton rather successfully use a Fleetwood Mac number for his winning turn?

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Anit Scottish - when did that happen and if you want sleep inducing, Scotland had the answer.  Now if you want a real anthem us Welsh will sort you.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2017)

According the BBC Scotland and the Scottish media it was a 'crushing, battered, hammered' [choose one of their standard three words] defeat for Macon


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2017)

Loved it that Macron strode out to the strains of 'Ode to Joy' - with the EU flag fluttering in the background 

And so dear PM.  Good luck negotiating with President Macron.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2017)

MarkE said:



			I should imagine that any influence exerted on the GE by the EU, would be to whip up anti May feelings, thereby hopefully decreasing her margin of victory, thereby weakening her negotiation powers on brexit. The bigger the majority the stronger May will be, knowing there's little chance of any agreements being voted against in Parliament.
		
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But the EU wants May to have the biggest majority possible as that gives May the best chance of marginalising the hard eurosceptics - thereby increasing the possibility of their being able to negotiate a less than most severe Brexit with the UK.  It would be counter-productive for the EU to try and undermine May and the Brexiteers, au contraire they want a May with an increased majority, not a reduced.


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## ger147 (May 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But the EU wants May to have the biggest majority possible as that gives May the best chance of marginalising the hard eurosceptics - thereby increasing the possibility of their being able to negotiate a less than most severe Brexit with the UK.  It would be counter-productive for the EU to try and undermine May and the Brexiteers, au contraire they want a May with an increased majority, not a reduced.
		
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No they don't...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			With your track record of avoiding answering direct questions I don't think that you are in a position to criticise or start lecturing anyone else for not answering. 

Theresa May as leader of the Tory party is doing what the electorate voted for when they chose to vote to leave the EU. Her personal feelings on the matter are secondary to that. You seem to have already decided what the outcome of the negotiations will be, with the result being a "hard Brexit". I'm prepared to wait and see the results of the negotiations before I start criticising or congratulating the negotiators.

I would agree with Hobbit that the EU would feel that their negotiating position would be stronger against a government that had no chance or very little chance of getting a "hard Brexit" through parliament. Therefore if there was interference from the EU in the election I believe a large Tory majority would be the least desirable outcome to them.

Now perhaps you could answer the questions that were put to you many days ago.....

Do you think that the UK will end up actually paying 100 billion euros, that the EU are currently demanding, to leave the EU?

Do you think that it would be fair for the EU to refuse to share assists that as a nett contributor over many years the UK have paid towards?

Aren't these two things just the EU trying to show how tough they are rather than factual statements on how things will turn out? 


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Tell you what.  I have no need to answer ANY Brexit related questions as my side of the argument LOST.  The questions that need answering are all for thise supporting the WINNING side.

But since you asked.

1) I have no idea what the UK will end up paying, what do you think.  Doubt it will be â‚¬100bn.
2) Up to the EU whether the share any assets,  my feeling is not and it would be understandable were they to refuse.  I pay into a club - the club buys chairs - I leave the club - I don't get to walk away with a chair - unless that is I am a shareholder in the club and the club goes bust.  So if the EU goes bust whilst the UK is still in it - then YES - the UK gets a share of the assets.
3) Possibly.  Likewise May and the Brexiteers have absolutely NO factual statements to make about the UKs post-Brexit future - other than out of the EU seems to mean out of the SM and the CU - whatever that actually means.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why don't you be honest with yourself and us.  You want Brexit to fail and you are making comments that show you cannot give any credence whatsoever to May or the Negotiators. In your mind a successful Brexit would be a disaster as your will is so set against it.   There is a great difference between concern for the outcome and and a desire for it to fail.
		
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Of course I don't want Brexit to fail - I have a family and friends - all of whose future depends on a successful Brexit.  But wouldn't you just love it if I did - would give you a scapegoat when things don't turn out quite so sweet.  The British Public have made a massive and utterly stupid mistake.  But I very much hope and pray that things don't turn out as bad as they might.

You really, really do not seem to understand why some of us have grave concerns and worries over the future of a post-Brexit UK - not specifically economically - more in respect of social cohesion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2017)

ger147 said:



			No they don't...
		
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Yes they do...

I might have as well said.

Do you think I am making this up?  Well I am not.  The EU don't give a great deal of monkeys about May's majority in respect of the EU's own negotiations with the UK - they have said this repeatedly and many informed commentators have said that the Tory majority will not change the EU negotiating stance.  But the EU DO want the maximum Tory majority to increase the possibility of a softer Brexit - that negotiation being an internal UK parliamentary negotiation.

I await hearing from Paul Dacre that the French Public are trying to affect the outcome of the UK GE by electing Macron as their president - how very dare they...


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## ger147 (May 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they do...

I might have as well said.

Do you think I am making this up?  Well I am not.  The EU don't give a great deal of monkeys about May's majority in respect of the EU's own negotiations with the UK - they have said this repeatedly and many informed commentators have said that the Tory majority will not change the EU negotiating stance.  But the EU DO want the maximum Tory majority to increase the possibility of a softer Brexit - that negotiation being an internal UK parliamentary negotiation.

I await hearing from Paul Dacre that the French Public are trying to affect the outcome of the UK GE by electing Macron as their president - how very dare they...
		
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No they don't.


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course I don't want Brexit to fail - I have a family and friends - all of whose future depends on a successful Brexit.
		
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Good to have you on board.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2017)

Just to re-cap on here.......Is everyone quite happy with the UK's sudden lurch to the right and instigating what are basic UKIP/BNP political policies.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to re-cap on here.......Is everyone quite happy with the UK's sudden lurch to the right and instigating what are basic UKIP/BNP political policies.
		
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Absolutely! 

And I've painted my bulldog red, white and blue. Just waiting on getting my Union Jack tattoo finished and the skin head hair cut. Any idea where I can get some cheap Doc Martin's?


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to re-cap on here.......Is everyone quite happy with the UK's sudden lurch to the right and instigating what are basic UKIP/BNP political policies.
		
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Providing we don't go as far right as the SNP which apart from one letter is as right as the BNP so we should be ok. Very happy with current center policies.


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## IanM (May 8, 2017)

Give Corbyn some credit.... he's spouting plenty of stuff from the previous GE UKIP Manifesto as well as Karl Marx!   

Is that balance or schizophrenic?

Far Right?  Hardly.  Which actual policies are far right?  Clue... allowing people to wear their won clothes rather than "Peoples' Suits" isn't far right! :clap:


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## SocketRocket (May 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to re-cap on here.......Is everyone quite happy with the UK's sudden lurch to the right and instigating what are basic UKIP/BNP political policies.
		
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I thought continental shift was fairly gradual.  How big is is this lurch to the right!  Are we expecting to reach the Canadian Mainland some time soon?

What are these UKIP/BNP  policies we are instigating?   Killing all Immigrants on sight, opening a new Workhouse every day, tax relief on neck tattoos and Staffies, Special Brexit tax  for all Remainers (we know who you are).


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## drdel (May 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Tell you what.  I have no need to answeur ANY Brexit related questions as my side of the argument LOST.  The questions that need answering are all for thise supporting the WINNING side.

But since you asked.

1) I have no idea what the UK will end up paying, what do you think.  Doubt it will be â‚¬100bn.
2) Up to the EU whether the share any assets,  my feeling is not and it would be understandable were they to refuse.  I pay into a club - the club buys chairs - I leave the club - I don't get to walk away with a chair - unless that is I am a shareholder in the club and the club goes bust.  So if the EU goes bust whilst the UK is still in it - then YES - the UK gets a share of the assets.
3) Possibly.  Likewise May and the Brexiteers have absolutely NO factual statements to make about the UKs post-Brexit future - other than out of the EU seems to mean out of the SM and the CU - whatever that actually means.
		
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The EU is not a club, nations do not pay subs. The EU request contributions which vary over time and between states. 

Neither is it a divorce, the UK is simply leaving the arrangement. Some in the EU agree with HoL that there is no legal basis for charging the UK for future expenditure as out account has been settled by the annual charge.


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## MarkE (May 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really, really do not seem to understand why some of us have grave concerns and worries over the future of a post-Brexit UK - not specifically economically - more in respect of social cohesion.
		
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Maybe if more affluent parts of the country cared about social cohesion then maybe the rest of the country would'nt have been voting to leave. There's little cohesion in my neck of the woods and it has nothing to do with brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

What is the difference between Teresa May and Elvis.












Elvis was seen by a few local folk when he visited Scotland.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What is the difference between Teresa May and Elvis.












Elvis was seen by a few local folk when he visited Scotland.
		
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Think he's got a chippy at the end of our street too.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What is the difference between Teresa May and Elvis.
Elvis was seen by a few local folk when he visited Scotland.
		
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Theresa's Hip, Elvis was Snake Hips :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

MarkE said:



			Maybe if more affluent parts of the country cared about social cohesion then maybe the rest of the country would'nt have been voting to leave. There's little cohesion in my neck of the woods and it has nothing to do with brexit.
		
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A society where the rich, representing a tiny fraction of the population, keep getting richer.
Whereas the poor, representing the bulk of the population, keep getting poorer is bound to end in a disaster.

I see that property prices are starting to fall, no surprise to me.
This could be the start of the 'disaster'


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A society where the rich, representing a tiny fraction of the population, keep getting richer.
Whereas the poor, representing the bulk of the population, keep getting poorer is bound to end in a disaster.

I see that property prices are starting to fall, no surprise to me.
This could be the start of the 'disaster'
		
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money makes money. It always has and always will. People need to borrow, and banks have been making money since before Jesus turfed them out of the temple.

As to property prices, I've moved house 14 times in 28 years of buying and selling. On at least 3 occasions I've sold in a falling market. 'Disaster;' I don't see anything I haven't already experienced.


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## IanM (May 9, 2017)

One minute the over inflated property market is trumpeted as a disaster, then any correction is also a disaster.  By the same people....

That tells me one thing, and its nothing to do with the property market, Brexit or a General Election


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## jp5 (May 9, 2017)

I see the Prime Minister is refusing to take any press questions that haven't been vetted.

Together with refusing to take part in a leader's debate.

Should be concerning for all, even those that support her. This isn't healthy for democracy.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

jp5 said:



			I see the Prime Minister is refusing to take any press questions that haven't been vetted.

Together with refusing to take part in a leader's debate.

Should be concerning for all, even those that support her. This isn't healthy for democracy.
		
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You Labour supporters are the only ones that need to be concerned, Jeremy is about to destroy your party and you know what, it's all your own fault for letting the party get out of touch with it's grass roots in favour of the Trots.


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## larmen (May 9, 2017)

jp5 said:



			I see the Prime Minister is refusing to take any press questions that haven't been vetted.

Together with refusing to take part in a leader's debate.

Should be concerning for all, even those that support her. This isn't healthy for democracy.
		
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A bit like Trump & Erdogan. That's what she learned from her state visits.


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## User62651 (May 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You Labour supporters are the only ones that need to be concerned, Jeremy is about to destroy your party and you know what, it's all your own fault for letting the party get out of touch with it's grass roots in favour of the Trots.
		
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Good attempt at deflection but doesn't answer why May as a public servant feels she is suddenly above being asked a few unvetted questions by the great unwashed electorate, the same electorate that effectively put her in power by leaving Cameron defeated on Brexit. She called the General Election but wants a procession or coronation instead of a political discussion.

As a Tory voter do you not want to hear what she has to say on a multitude of things non-Brexit like tax, schooling, NHS, military, immigration etc etc or are you going to take the new manifesto as gospel, unchallenged?


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

Anybody a link to where she says that all her questions from the press are to be vetted, missed it as I was on a golf course.

Meanwhile Mr Corbyn refuses to say whether he would leave the EU if he became PM. It's on the BBC feed if anyone is interested.


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## User62651 (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Anybody a link to where she says that all her questions from the press are to be vetted, missed it as I was on a golf course.

Meanwhile Mr Corbyn refuses to say whether he would leave the EU if he became PM. It's on the BBC feed if anyone is interested.
		
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Yep, bit odd to not firm up on that, maybe he hopes more of the 48% will lean his way come June given May's hard brexit intentions. Funny that originally Corbyn was the Eurosceptic and May was the Europhile, whatever hat fits clearly.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

IanM said:



			One minute the over inflated property market is trumpeted as a disaster, then any correction is also a disaster.  By the same people....

That tells me one thing, and its nothing to do with the property market, Brexit or a General Election
		
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I experienced the late 1990's disaster when two of my staff handed back the keys to their proudly bought homes and another carried Â£30k of negative equity around like a ball and chain.
Might not have been a disaster to you but it was for 3 of my 30 staff.


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## IanM (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I experienced the late 1990's disaster when two of my staff handed back the keys to their proudly bought homes and another carried Â£30k of negative equity around like a ball and chain.
Might not have been a disaster to you but it was for 3 of my 30 staff.
		
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Nope.  I reread my post 5 times and nothing in what I actually said is referenced in your reply.  But no change there.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I experienced the late 1990's disaster when two of my staff handed back the keys to their proudly bought homes and another carried Â£30k of negative equity around like a ball and chain.
Might not have been a disaster to you but it was for 3 of my 30 staff.
		
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You do post some very odd things.

How can a fall in house prices force people to hand in their keys? If they took out a mortgage on the house they knew what the repayments were so how would a drop in the house value make them unable to afford the repayments, surely that would be due to increased interest rates and low wage increases.  maybe you should have paid them more.   The one with the negative equity would also have been no worse off unless he wanted to sell the house, anyhow the house prices soon increased again.

Regarding the current house prices they have reduced by 0.2% this year after record increases over the past 10.  You are one of the people who have been moaning that house prices are too expensive for young people to get on the housing ladder.   As I said, you do post some very odd things.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			As a Tory voter do you not want to hear what she has to say on a multitude of things non-Brexit like tax, schooling, NHS, military, immigration etc etc or are you going to take the new manifesto as gospel, unchallenged?
		
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No I dont need to, I already know what her position is on those things, just like I know what Corbyn's stance is.  Why would I want to see them in front of a selected TV audience.  Complete waste of time.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

IanM said:



			Nope.  I reread my post 5 times and nothing in what I actually said is referenced in your reply.  But no change there.
		
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Sorry, it was aimed for that scoundrel Hobbit.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry, it was aimed for that scoundrel Hobbit.

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Dodgy character that Hobbit. Sorry Doon, not sure what point you're making or expecting me to answer. 

If it's the issue of negative equity, it's well and truly already ongoing up here in Aberdeen. Our neighbours in Ellon sold a 5 bed house for Â£260k just before Christmas, which they'd bought for over Â£600k 3 years ago. It's only a loss when you sell. If people can wait for the market to pick up.


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You do post some very odd things.

How can a fall in house prices force people to hand in their keys? If they took out a mortgage on the house they knew what the repayments were so how would a drop in the house value make them unable to afford the repayments, surely that would be due to increased interest rates and low wage increases.  maybe you should have paid them more. 
...
		
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For (according to you) an ex CEO of a sizeable company, you show an appalling - or maybe simply biased - grasp of the Demand economy that is the Housing market! And, apparently, of maintaining business viability in a recession!

As for the guy with 30k of Negative equity, you were merely confirming what Doon stated! It was 'a ball and chain' that was carried by thousands. And 'soon' was actually 'a number of years', perhaps not a huge amount of time for those relatively unaffected by the effects of the recession, but a considerable/enormous drain on those Doon's posted about!


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## ColchesterFC (May 9, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Together with refusing to take part in a leader's debate.

Should be concerning for all, even those that support her. This isn't healthy for democracy.
		
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Has democracy only been healthy since 2010 when the first of these leaders debates were held then?

Was it also not healthy for democracy when Blair turned down election debates in 2001? Or since 1997 when Blair and Brown argued that the weekly PMQs were sufficient and a debate wasn't needed? I don't remember hearing a great deal of outcry about that. Or is it double standards by some who are looking for any excuse to have a pop at May and the Tories?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has democracy only been healthy since 2010 when the first of these leaders debates were held then?

Was it also not healthy for democracy when Blair turned down election debates in 2001? Or since 1997 when Blair and Brown argued that the weekly PMQs were sufficient and a debate wasn't needed? I don't remember hearing a great deal of outcry about that. Or is it double standards by some who are looking for any excuse to have a pop at May and the Tories?
		
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The old politicians were not scared to debate with the public like May is..........what is she so frightened of?

Now being 'grilled' by Matt on The One Show:lol:


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## larmen (May 9, 2017)

Maybe it needs a few 30 minute Paxman interviews with the party leaders.


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## FairwayDodger (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Anybody a link to where she says that all her questions from the press are to be vetted, missed it as I was on a golf course.

Meanwhile Mr Corbyn refuses to say whether he would leave the EU if he became PM. It's on the BBC feed if anyone is interested.
		
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This is one of the reasons labour is being squeezed out in Scotland. Indyref2 and brexit are the big issues and labour refuses to take a position on either. Just stupid.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The old politicians were not scared to debate with the public like May is..........what is she so frightened of?

Now being 'grilled' by Matt on The One Show:lol:
		
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Are you realy saying that it's only May


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is one of the reasons labour is being squeezed out in Scotland. Indyref2 and brexit are the big issues and labour refuses to take a position on either. Just stupid.
		
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It's not Labour it's just him and his inner circle.  If Labour fails big style this time and him and his side kick refuse to go then it will be time for another party to rise from the Phynix


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## FairwayDodger (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			It's not Labour it's just him and his inner circle.  If Labour fails big style this time and him and his side kick refuse to go then it will be time for another party to rise from the Phynix
		
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The silver lining from this election must surely be the end of Corbyn but the question is whether someone equally hopeless will replace him.


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## IanM (May 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Dodgy character that Hobbit. Sorry Doon, not sure what point you're making or expecting me to answer. 

If it's the issue of negative equity, it's well and truly already ongoing up here in Aberdeen. Our neighbours in Ellon sold a 5 bed house for Â£260k just before Christmas, which they'd bought for over Â£600k 3 years ago. It's only a loss when you sell. If people can wait for the market to pick up.
		
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A drop from 600 to 260 in three years?  Something else locally must be in play or they'd trashed the place surely?  that's mental.

According to web house prices in Aberdeen have fallen 10% per year on average, but that's pretty local...they are rising still in the South as demand outstripping supply


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## ger147 (May 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			The silver lining from this election must surely be the end of Corbyn but the question is whether someone equally hopeless will replace him.
		
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I am not 100% convinced he will go even if Labour get trounced in the GE.

I have a sneaky feeling he might try and hang on as he hasn't been leader for that long. It will be up to the unions I guess to force him out if he doesn't fall on his sword of his own accord...


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I am not 100% convinced he will go even if Labour get trounced in the GE.

I have a sneaky feeling he might try and hang on as he hasn't been leader for that long. It will be up to the unions I guess to force him out if he doesn't fall on his sword of his own accord...
		
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The big unions want him and the puppet master  McDonnell to stay as it's there only way of controlling the party.


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## ColchesterFC (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The old politicians were not scared to debate with the public like May is..........what is she so frightened of?

Now being 'grilled' by Matt on The One Show:lol:
		
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That doesn't answer the question. Why didn't the snake oil salesman and the one eyed Scottish idiot get the same level of outcry when they decided that debates were unnecessary? 

Could it be because many on the left are complete hypocrites and overlook these things when they happen to someone who shares their political views? Let's face it, Theresa May could stand up tomorrow and say that she had personally found a cure for AIDS and cancer and there would still be some people complaining that she hadn't found a cure for the common cold.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You Labour supporters are the only ones that need to be concerned, Jeremy is about to destroy your party and you know what, it's all your own fault for letting the party get out of touch with it's grass roots in favour of the Trots.
		
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So rather than pivot, divert and change the subject, are you going to comment on *@jp5's *observations about what our Prime Minister is doing/not doing and her behaviour being bad for democracy when this is a very important GE and time for our country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No I dont need to, I already know what her position is on those things, just like I know what Corbyn's stance is.  Why would I want to see them in front of a selected TV audience.  Complete waste of time.
		
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In other words you'd rather not have your unswerving and blind faith and belief in her undermined, and would rather not see and hear her exposed as the duplicitous charlatan that she is ever more becoming.  Otherwise you'd be only too pleased to see and hear her swat questions away with logical, coherent and consistent answers - riding triumphant over the doubting Thomases and Jeremiahs.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So rather than pivot, divert and change the subject, are you going to comment on *@jp5's *observations about what our Prime Minister is doing/not doing and her behaviour being bad for democracy when this is a very important GE and time for our country.
		
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Not the case. Next question.  Move on. 

Or does the answer it was good enough to duck it in the past and nobody cared, a lot on here have also stated that there boring and not worth the air time until now when it suits some hypocritical posters to make an issue of it.

PS. The two main players are also getting a question time special were the public can ask the questions and not have a false debate which isn't and never was a debate more a mud slinging match.

PPS the bit players are also getting there chance in a seperate programme.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2017)

And so May is on the Nick Ferrari Show on LBC Thursday morning, and when asked today what question Nick Clegg would ask her?

_â€œDid you believe anything you said before 23rd June?â€_

Here's another from me

_"Why didn't you reduce immigration in the 6 years that you were Home Secretary?"
_


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so May is on the Nick Ferrari Show on LBC Thursday morning, and when asked today what question Nick Clegg would ask her?

_â€œDid you believe anything you said before 23rd June?â€_

Here's another from me

_"Why didn't you reduce immigration in the 6 years that you were Home Secretary?"
_

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Write and ask, it's a fair bet the address will be 10 Downing St.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not the case. Next question.  Move on. 

Or does the answer it was good enough to duck it in the past and nobody cared, a lot on here have also stated that there boring and not worth the air time until now when it suits some hypocritical posters to make an issue of it.

PS. The two main players are also getting a question time special were the public can ask the questions and not have a false debate which isn't and never was a debate more a mud slinging match.

PPS the bit players are also getting there chance in a seperate programme.
		
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I think SR can answer for himself...

The past is the past.  There has never been a time so important in UK politics in the last 50yrs - and the Prime Minister seems scared of getting herself exposed.  The British Public were fed lies and misinformation for the Brexit vote.  We deserve better - that opportunity is now. 

After all - is this election not clearly all about May - not the Tory Party - but May herself - as an individual - seeking a mandate for Brexit and her manifesto?  May should stand up - debate and answer the questions face-2-face with the public - she wants a mandate - so she can be held accountable by the British Public for her answers.  She may well get the mandate she seeks - but she herself has to earn it.  Currently she is hiding and is doing *nothing *to earn it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Write and ask, it's a fair bet the address will be 10 Downing St.
		
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Deflect.

Questions unanswered as usual - but not unexpected and sad that you do not seem to care.  Or do you think the questions are a little tough?


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Deflect.

Questions unanswered as usual - but not unexpected and sad that you do not seem to care.  Or do you think the questions are a little tough?
		
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Your question was to the PM not me.


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## ger147 (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think SR can answer for himself...

The past is the past.  There has never been a time so important in UK politics in the last 50yrs - and the Prime Minister seems scared of getting herself exposed.  The British Public were fed lies and misinformation for the Brexit vote.  We deserve better - that opportunity is now. 

After all - is this election not clearly all about May - not the Tory Party - but May herself - as an individual - seeking a mandate for Brexit and her manifesto?  May should stand up - debate and answer the questions face-2-face with the public - she wants a mandate - so she can be held accountable by the British Public for her answers.  She may well get the mandate she seeks - but she herself has to earn it.  Currently she is hiding and is doing *nothing *to earn it.
		
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She is appearing live on TV on 2nd June to answer questions from the genetal public.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In other words you'd rather not have your unswerving and blind faith and belief in her undermined, and would rather not see and hear her exposed as the duplicitous charlatan that she is ever more becoming.  Otherwise you'd be only too pleased to see and hear her swat questions away with logical, coherent and consistent answers - riding triumphant over the doubting Thomases and Jeremiahs.
		
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You are getting more and more mouth foaming by the day, May has taken your focus from Brexit now, it's all a bit rabid.

You ask me to explain something I already had, accusing me of dodging the question and rather than an apology I then get the equivalent of a 'Fire and Brimstone' outpouring of vitriolic hatred for the Prime Minister.   You really need to calm down and seek help.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			.  There has never been a time so important in UK politics in the last 50yr.
		
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Do you really believe that. Important possibly but in the last 50 years you do remember the threat of nuclear war several major armed conflicts and a constant terrorists threat and you zone in on the actions of one PM dealing with something that you don't agree with.

The past may be the past but someone once said "never forget your history ". or previous posts.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

ger147 said:



			She is appearing live on TV on 2nd June to answer questions from the genetal public.
		
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Genetal eh.....That would be an interesting watch.:lol:


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Genetal eh.....That would be an interesting watch.:lol:
		
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Suits you Sir


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Write and ask, it's a fair bet the address will be 10 Downing St.
		
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Both before and after the election...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Your question was to the PM not me.
		
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Well - perhaps you might try answering it because Brexiteers seem to have answers for everything.  Besides - if I were to ask the PM then the rest of us would be none the wiser.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

IanM said:



			A drop from 600 to 260 in three years?  Something else locally must be in play or they'd trashed the place surely?  that's mental.

According to web house prices in Aberdeen have fallen 10% per year on average, but that's pretty local...they are rising still in the South as demand outstripping supply
		
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Maybe the folks that Hobbits neighbours bought the house from forgot to mention that Trump had property nearby...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are getting more and more mouth foaming by the day, May has taken your focus from Brexit now, it's all a bit rabid.

You ask me to explain something I already had, accusing me of dodging the question and rather than an apology I then get the equivalent of a 'Fire and Brimstone' outpouring of vitriolic hatred for the Prime Minister.   You really need to calm down and seek help.
		
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You dodge pretty much every question that is asked.  I do not hate the Prime Minister - I do not hate anyone.  I am dismayed by her.

So let's have another go on her being a strong Remainer to Hard Leaver overnight.  You don't have to be the latter to accept the will of the Great British Public - if you believed what you said for years before the EU vote you would most certainly NOT be a Hard Leaver.  Explain.

And on the NHS.  Is _No Deal _good or bad for the NHS?  And how will MPs know if they are not told what a _No Deal_ will mean (for the NHS, the economy, security etc) when they come to the Deal/No Deal Vote.  When will they be told?

And on UK/France border control in Calais.  We were told by Leave that any concerns about that moving to Dover will Project Fear scaremongering and treachery.  Where are we now - that Macron has said he will be looking at this very closely.  And why not.  If the control was in the UK then I am damn sure Team DExEU would be looking to move it to France.  So still Project Fear.

And any news on the NI/Eire border and how we stop immigration from Eire to NI to UK Mainland?

And on immigration - 10s of thousands? Please explain how that fits with your mantra of 'the UK will have the level of nett migration required to sustain the economy and public services'.  Your words.

Now these are all questions that I have no answers for - so I have to look to such as you - who have the answers to all things Leave.

And whilst we are it with May.  Since it is clear the May is majoring on getting a *personal *mandate from this GE for all things - is it not incumbent upon her to engage in the *fullest possible way* to explain HER position on all matters - to face the public in open forum; so that SHE can be held directly accountable for the actions of HER government.  Not hiding away with her hubby on the One Show or in front of a selected and what will largely be a sycophantic audience.  

Try watching some of the 'Town Hall' grillings that most Republican Representatives in Congress are subjecting themselves to at the moment - specifically over Health Care,  it's proving to be very difficult for them - but they recognise democracy; the needs of democracy, and the responsibility of those in public office to be held accountable.  Theresa May doesn't seem to recognise much of that - certainly steering away from it as much as she can - maintaining an aloof and superior demeanor.

And oh yes - unless she has missed it - Theresa May won't be doing much in the way of the Brexit negotiations.  Her ministers and Civil Servants will.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Do you really believe that. Important possibly but in the last 50 years you do remember the threat of nuclear war several major armed conflicts and a constant terrorists threat and you zone in on the actions of one PM dealing with something that you don't agree with.

The past may be the past but someone once said "never forget your history ". or previous posts.
		
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50yrs takes us to 1967.  I am not alone in using that timescale.  But if it suits you - this is a pointless general election with nothing at stake.  What's the fuss.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2017)

PM Mayhem in yet another mucking fuddle.
In an amateurish attempt to divert attention away from the shaming fine imposed on the Tories she slanders the SNP with made up fake news about them previously being fined by the electoral commission over election expenses.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			50yrs takes us to 1967.  I am not alone in using that timescale.  But if it suits you -* this is a pointless general election with nothing at stake.  What's the fuss*.
		
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Was it not you that recently posted that May had not been voted in as Prime Minister at a General Election so had no right to be leading the country?


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - perhaps you might try answering it because Brexiteers seem to have answers for everything.  Besides - if I were to ask the PM then the rest of us would be none the wiser.
		
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You ask a question of the PM and you want me to answer it for her, I know a lot of people including some who work in the palace of Westminster but they are way down the food chain so again I suggest you write to her if you are after an answer.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			50yrs takes us to 1967.  I am not alone in using that timescale.  But if it suits you - this is a pointless general election with nothing at stake.  What's the fuss.
		
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The remainers seem to be making the most fuss, personally I don't care either way.

I presume your ignoring the rest of the post as your knowledge of history is possibly as good as Doons on geography.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

No apology yet for yesterday's lies about the SNP from the British PM........has the woman no shame?

Anyone notice the amount of gongs and medals awarded to the top brass at the CPS since 2015. Just saying


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Was it not you that recently posted that May had not been voted in as Prime Minister at a General Election so had no right to be leading the country?
		
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I think you miss my point...


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No apology yet for yesterday's lies about the SNP from the British PM........has the woman no shame?

Anyone notice the amount of gongs and medals awarded to the top brass at the CPS since 2015. Just saying

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No, do tell


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The remainers seem to be making the most fuss, personally I don't care either way.

I presume your ignoring the rest of the post as your knowledge of history is possibly as good as Doons on geography.
		
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I'm not saying the GE is more important than some of the *issues* and *events* of the last 50yrs - but in respect of the Great British Public *voting*...Brexit and the GE - and the GEs links with Brexit are. 

But OK - everyone in the media and commentators who have been saying that Brexit and this GE are two of the most important votes the country has had to make in the last 50yrs are wrong - OK?


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No apology yet for yesterday's lies about the SNP from the British PM........has the woman no shame?

Anyone notice the amount of gongs and medals awarded to the top brass at the CPS since 2015. Just saying

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Think Kier Starmer, ex-head of the CPS, has received a hatful of awards and is a Labour MP. Don't forget, that those awarded gongs etc come from lists provided by all sides... not that you'd want to miss that relevant fact... Just saying


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not saying the GE is more important than some of the *issues* and *events* of the last 50yrs - but in respect of the Great British Public *voting*...Brexit and the GE - and the GEs links with Brexit are. 

But OK - everyone in the media and commentators who have been saying that Brexit and this GE are two of the most important votes the country has had to make in the last 50yrs are wrong - OK?
		
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Got to agree with you. This is the most important election since the 60's. As you've said before, this isn't just about the next 5 years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Let's see how Theresa May does under scrutiny from Nick Ferrari on LBC this evening.  He is a strong supporter of Brexit and the Tories but is a no-nonsense, forensic interviewer - willing to embarrass and expose failings in those he interviews.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/elect...leaders-live/leaders-live-on-lbc-theresa-may/

Can only be 1000% improvement on the anodyne Mr & Mrs interview by Matt and Alex on The One Show on Tuesday.  That was totally excruciating.  Watch it on iPlayer and come away thinking - now there is a strong and confident leader...pity about his wife...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Got to agree with you. This is the most important election since the 60's. As you've said before, this isn't just about the next 5 years.
		
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Absolutely.  This coming short period of 2 yrs will have a *huge *impact on the future of our children and grandchildren...for decades to come.  And whatever bad comes with the good - *we *won't have to deal with it.  They will.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely.  This coming short period of 2 yrs will have a *huge *impact on the future of our children and grandchildren...for decades to come.  And whatever bad comes with the good - *we *won't have to deal with it.  They will.
		
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I guess you have not considered they may get advantages because of it. If we stayed in the EU are you suggesting there would not be anything bad they would need to deal with.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think you miss my point...
		
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I think you miss mine.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No apology yet for yesterday's lies about the SNP from the British PM........has the woman no shame?

Anyone notice the amount of gongs and medals awarded to the top brass at the CPS since 2015. Just saying

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Do you mean those lies the SNP made about Scotland's Fishing territories after Brexit.  I agree  should be thoroughly ashamed.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No apology yet for yesterday's lies about the SNP from the British PM........has the woman no shame?...
		
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She's a politician for heaven's sake! NEVER expect an apology (apart from where directed to do so be The Speaker)! Same applies to pretty much ALL politician btw!


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely.  This coming short period of 2 yrs will have a *huge *impact on the future of our children and grandchildren...for decades to come.  And whatever bad comes with the good - *we *won't have to deal with it.  They will.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I guess you have not considered they may get advantages because of it. If we stayed in the EU are you suggesting there would not be anything bad they would need to deal with.
		
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Do the words 'comes with the good' not register with you?

Good point, though irrelevant to that particular debate and maybe simply similar scaremongering to what the Right wing 'gutter' (or is that gutter Right Wing) press are pushing, about the possibility of 'bad things to deal with' though!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			She's a politician for heaven's sake! NEVER expect an apology (apart from where directed to do so be The Speaker)! Same applies to pretty much ALL politician btw!
		
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She is the British Prime Minister........ everyone happy that our Prime Minister tells outright lies [fake news] to gain political advantage over an opposing party leading up to an election.
She should show some honesty and apologise.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She is the British Prime Minister........ everyone happy that our Prime Minister tells outright lies [fake news] to gain political advantage over an opposing party leading up to an election.
She should show some honesty and apologise.
		
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She is the First Minister of Scotland.........everyone happy that Nicola Sturgeon tells outright lies (fake news) to gain political advantage over an opposing party leading up to an election.
She should show some honesty and apologise.

If you were willing to take your blinkers off for a few minutes you would see that it works both ways. Or did you miss/choose to ignore Sturgeon's "outright lies" (fake news) on the Scottish fishing industry? I guess you can't claim not to have seen them as you posted the link to them in the first place.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

And so let's see how the great leader fares under questioning from Nick Ferrari and LBC listeners this evening 7pm-7:30pm.  

Ferrari is a Brexiteer with Tory supporting inclinations - but is a fearless and forensic questioner - and I believe him when he says his questions and those of listeners will not be shared with the PM beforehand.

Looking forward to it.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/elections/general-election-2017/leaders-live/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Do the words 'comes with the good' not register with you?

Good point, though irrelevant to that particular debate and maybe simply similar scaremongering to what the Right wing 'gutter' (or is that gutter Right Wing) press are pushing, about the possibility of 'bad things to deal with' though!
		
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Thankyou *@Foxholer* - I was very careful to recognise that there may well be some good to come out of Brexit.  Pity that was missed.

And yes - love it that at the merest sniff or suggestion that anything other than total severance with the EU might come about - the Right Wing press start flying their own Project Fear flag and telling us how dreadful the EU is and how disastrous it would be to Remain....

But wasn't Remaining what the previous Home Secretary was a strong advocate of...oh never mind - that's too difficult a question for some - though she will be asked that question by Ferrari this evening.  I wonder what her answer will be.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But wasn't Remaining what the previous Home Secretary was a strong advocate of...oh never mind - that's too difficult a question for some - though she will be asked that question by Ferrari this evening.  I wonder what her answer will be.
		
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Last year you had a thread about the Tories not enacting the will of the people. Now you're criticising the PM for enacting the binary choice irrespective of her personal beliefs.

C'mon, if she said purple you'd say green if it suited your argument.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			She is the First Minister of Scotland.........everyone happy that Nicola Sturgeon tells outright lies (fake news) to gain political advantage over an opposing party leading up to an election.
She should show some honesty and apologise.

If you were willing to take your blinkers off for a few minutes you would see that it works both ways. Or did you miss/choose to ignore Sturgeon's "outright lies" (fake news) on the Scottish fishing industry? I guess you can't claim not to have seen them as you posted the link to them in the first place.
		
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Well done........The usual right wing diversion when they do not have an honest reply.

Show me when Nicola lied about the Scottish Fisheries [absolute proof please]
Considering an agreement will not be reached within 12 months that will take some doing.

Mays lies about the SNP breaking electoral law was debunked within minutes.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well done........The usual right wing diversion when they do not have an honest reply.

Show me when Nicola lied about the Scottish Fisheries [absolute proof please]
Considering an agreement will not be reached within 12 months that will take some doing.

Mays lies about the SNP breaking electoral law was debunked within minutes.
		
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Absolutely give you the one on SNP electoral expenses but the fisheries one is spin on what was really said. The truth was that the UK side said there may have to be concessions and adopting of EU rules for British industry post-Brexit. At no time was the Scottish fishing industry mentioned by name.

SNP spin and lies on that one.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well done........The usual right wing diversion when they do not have an honest reply.

Show me when Nicola lied about the Scottish Fisheries [absolute proof please]
Considering an agreement will not be reached within 12 months that will take some doing.

Mays lies about the SNP breaking electoral law was debunked within minutes.
		
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Well done...... the usual left wing diversion to brand anyone that disagrees with them as right wing when they don't have an honest reply. 

How about quotes such as "Tories are planning to sell out Scottish fishing - again" or "clear that the Tories are planning another fisheries sell out". By selectively leaking parts of a letter (rather than the whole document and letting the public make up their own minds) Sturgeon and the SNP are at the very least lying by omission or alternatively spreading fake news for political gain. 

Unlike you I am prepared to criticise politicians from any party when they deserve it. Theresa May was wrong about the SNP being fined for election expenses and at the very least should publicly withdraw the remark, and in my opinion apologise as well - slim chance of that happening. And equally Sturgeon was wrong with her comments on the Scottish fishing industry and should also publicly withdraw her comments.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well done...... the usual left wing diversion to brand anyone that disagrees with them as right wing when they don't have an honest reply. 

How about quotes such as "Tories are planning to sell out Scottish fishing - again" or "clear that the Tories are planning another fisheries sell out". By selectively leaking parts of a letter (rather than the whole document and letting the public make up their own minds) Sturgeon and the SNP are at the very least lying by omission or alternatively spreading fake news for political gain. 

Unlike you I am prepared to criticise politicians from any party when they deserve it. Theresa May was wrong about the SNP being fined for election expenses and at the very least should publicly withdraw the remark, and in my opinion apologise as well - slim chance of that happening. And equally Sturgeon was wrong with her comments on the Scottish fishing industry and should also publicly withdraw her comments.
		
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Deary me, is that the best you can come up with.

An absolute lie against some standard politics that both sides do every day.
If you could read the anti SNP comments in the Unionist newspapers in Scotland you would probably get your eyes opened very wide 


At least we agree that May should withdraw her downright lie.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2017)

At least we also agree that it is standard politics for the SNP to lie for political gain.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

No I do not, there is a clear line between the two examples and I think lesser of you that you chose to ignore it.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No I do not, there is a clear line between the two examples and I think lesser of you that you chose to ignore it.
		
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Its the internet, I'm sure your one sided intolerance gives him sleepless nights. How's your geography coming along.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No I do not, there is a clear line between the two examples and I think lesser of you that you chose to ignore it.
		
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Theresa May says something that is not true and you are quick to call it a lie. Nicola Sturgeon says something that is not true and you are quick to defend her. It's just a shame that the clear line between the two is in your case drawn along party political lines. You've proven time and again that you are unprepared to accept even the mildest criticism of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP so why did I expect anything different in this case?


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Its the internet, I'm sure your one sided intolerance gives him sleepless nights. How's your geography coming along.
		
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Not so good, he thinks the Dutch are invading Holland.


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not so good, he thinks the Dutch are invading Holland.
		
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Just wait till the Netherlands finds out...


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Just wait till the Netherlands finds out...
		
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The Netherlands are threatening to send in a peace keeping force.  Doom thinks this is bad news for Preston.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.  That interview was dire.  And that wasn't just the questioning by Nick Ferrari - serious 'let-down' and subject of much criticism by LBC listeners mailing, texting and calling into his programme this morning.

And so we have a strong, confident, honest and straight Prime Minister?  Do we really...

Income Tax plans for the next parliament - avoid
Immigration - 10s of thousands how? - avoid
Brexit - nirvana - really?
Cameron stating that the GE was called to (at least in part) enable the PM to face-down Hard Brexiteers in her part - avoid

But she knew how the size of the Army - so that's OK then.

Hesitancy, waffle, uncertainty - just what we need up against Barnier, Tusk, Verhofstadt et al.  Just as well she's not going to be leading the negotiations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Last year you had a thread about the Tories not enacting the will of the people. Now you're criticising the PM for enacting the binary choice irrespective of her personal beliefs.

C'mon, if she said purple you'd say green if it suited your argument.
		
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Which 'will' bit was that?  I can't remember?   

But of course whilst Leaving the EU was a binary choice, and indeed that choice has been made, the fact that there are multiple *outcomes *of leaving means that the PM does not need to simply choose one path to follow - and to all intents and purposes that is what she is *currently *saying she is doing - out of the EU *means * out of the SM and out of the CU - with relatively painless re-engagement with the EU on a free trade agreement.

That a larger Tory majority in Westminster following the GE would enable the PM to look at alternative routes out of the EU , with alternative outcomes, seems to be just what Cameron expects her to be doing,


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.  That interview was dire.  And that wasn't just the questioning by Nick Ferrari - serious 'let-down' and subject of much criticism by LBC listeners mailing, texting and calling into his programme this morning.

And so we have a strong, confident, honest and straight Prime Minister?  Do we really...

Income Tax plans for the next parliament - avoid
Immigration - 10s of thousands how? - avoid
Brexit - nirvana - really?
Cameron stating that the GE was called to (at least in part) enable the PM to face-down Hard Brexiteers in her part - avoid

But she knew how the size of the Army - so that's OK then.

Hesitancy, waffle, uncertainty - just what we need up against Barnier, Tusk, Verhofstadt et al.  Just as well she's not going to be leading the negotiations.
		
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I listened to some of it last night but was more disappointed with Ferrari. Like Andrew Marr the week before, I thought she got an easy ride from him. As for the avoidance, yes it was there but no different than Corbyn. In fact, Corbyn has issued a statement today saying he would use our forces if it was really needed - only a week after some serious questions on it, which he dodged and dodged and dodged - not exactly strong and stable!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I listened to some of it last night *but was more disappointed with Ferrari. Like Andrew Marr the week before, I thought she got an easy ride from him. *As for the avoidance, yes it was there but no different than Corbyn. In fact, Corbyn has issued a statement today saying he would use our forces if it was really needed - only a week after some serious questions on it, which he dodged and dodged and dodged - not exactly strong and stable!
		
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She did - I was most disappointed in Ferrari - and so were many of his listeners judging by the feedback he received this morning.

And as far as avoidance - I ask to put comparative comments and reflections on Corbyn aside for the moment and consider May for her own performance.  

She has gone on and on about what is core to her politics, and what makes her different from others - her strength, clarity, honesty and being 'straight' with the public.  And yesterday evening she just wasn't any of these (the personal stuff aside).  And as soon as I see that there is in fact a good deal of Emperor's New Clothes about her portrayal of her political and personal characteristics; that she is not actually *that* different - if different at all - from 'the rest of them', then perhaps we can look at policies rather than see her as some present day Boudica in some imaginary face-2-face stand-off against the might of the Roman Empire.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

Shock horror, MP avoids answering questions - read all about it.  It was a daft time for an interview.  None of the party leaders should be interviewed BEFORE manifestos come out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Shock horror, MP avoids answering questions - read all about it.  It was a daft time for an interview.  None of the party leaders should be interviewed BEFORE manifestos come out.
		
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She is not just an MP - she is the PM seeking a personal mandate - and she is a PM who talks about how important her honesty and straight-talking is - the things that we should admire in her and that form the basis for why we should vote for her.  So why on earth are you willing to accept her avoiding answering questions and being disingenuous about what she feels she can achieve from leave negotiations.

I might suggest May wanted to be first to get it out of the way as soon as possible.  Now done she can avoid being interviewed in such a forum again - and she and her advisers will hope that any errors or difficulties of yesterday evening will be forgotten in the coming weeks and as others are interviewed.  She can now wrap herself up in the flag and self-proclaimed suit of armour to smite all those who might oppose her.


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## Hacker Khan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Shock horror, MP avoids answering questions - read all about it.  It was a daft time for an interview.  None of the party leaders should be interviewed BEFORE manifestos come out.
		
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Glad to hear you are like me, and are so compliant and unquestioning about a potential leader of this country and their seemingly avoidance of any hard subjects in one of the most divisive periods in the countries recent history.  I also for one know my place, and wait for any information the lovely fragrant Mrs May deems important enough to tell me. But if she doesn't then no worries, I know she must be very busy.....


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

Not compliant but don't see where any decent questions on policy could come from as nothing has been published.  As to not coming clean on answering questions try naming a politician who does. I unlike others im not selective in my mistrust of anything that comes out of Westminster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not compliant but don't see where any decent questions on policy could come from as nothing has been published.  As to not coming clean on answering questions try naming a politician who does. I unlike others im not selective in my mistrust of anything that comes out of Westminster.
		
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She has proclaimed HERSELF as one who does...


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She has proclaimed HERSELF as one who does...
		
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And you believe her. Ye right, you don't believe anything else she says but you believe that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			And you believe her. Ye right, you don't believe anything else she says but you believe that.
		
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You asked me to name a politician - I didn't have to.  The PM named herself.

And you are quite right  I don't believe her - but she wants everyone else to believe her.  Do you?  And if you don't, why are you willing to put up with a PM who says one thing and does the opposite.  Why should anyone believe anything she says if you know before she is elected that she is duplicitous.

Or are we heading down the Trump route where he is shameless in telling us one thing one day, and saying a quite different thing about it - indeed contradicting himself - a few days later - and to him and his Trumpist acolytes such behaviour does not matter.  Are you really willing to sit back uncritically and accept such behaviour from Theresa May.  

Do you care that she would not commit to raising income tax over 2017-2022 - when she is selling herself and the Tories as the party for cutting Income Tax - unlike Labour and the LibDems who will raise income tax?  Do you care about deception and potentially being lied to?  Do you?  And I am asking these simple questions in the context of the Theresa May and the Tories.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

I'm a realist, I go for the best of a bad bunch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I'm a realist, I go for the best of a bad bunch.
		
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And so you accept that she is not what she makes herself out to be - she is pretty much just like all the rest

Good luck...I'm not voting for her and her mob - I'll leave that for others to do and to then explain by 2022 how things have turned out so well.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so you accept that she is not what she makes herself out to be - she is pretty much just like all the rest

Good luck...I'm not voting for her and her mob - I'll leave that for others to do and to then explain by 2022 how things have turned out so well.
		
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You automatically seem to think she's the best then. And where did I say I was voting for her. Only one I won't be voting for is Labour.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			You automatically seem to think she's the best then. And where did I say I was voting for her. Only one I won't be voting for is Labour.
		
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Sorry - I added 2+2 and got 4 from your comment that you'd be going for the best of a bad bunch.

I think she is the best then? - oh - not quite sure how you make that out - but I can happily disabuse you of that notion.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I added 2+2 and got 4 from your comment that you'd be going for the best of a bad bunch.
		
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I haven't seen any proposals or manifestos apart from leaked ones so I am unable at this time to make an informed decision which is the way I deal with elections, not with some pre conceived idea.  You chucked two numbers in the air and came away with the number you preferred.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And you are quite right  I don't believe her - but she wants everyone else to believe her.  Do you?  And if you don't, why are you willing to put up with a PM who says one thing and does the opposite.  Why should anyone believe anything she says if you know before she is elected that she is duplicitous.

.
		
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Blair lied about WMD and tuition fees.

Cameron lied about staying on if the Brexiteers won.

May lied about calling an election.

Corbyn lies when he opens his mouth.

Stop worrying yourself about what they say when asked a question, analyse the manifestos instead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Blair lied about WMD and tuition fees.

Cameron lied about staying on if the Brexiteers won.

May lied about calling an election.

Corbyn lies when he opens his mouth.

Stop worrying yourself about what they say when asked a question, analyse the manifestos instead.
		
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I wish it were about the manifesto.  Listen to May and it is all about giving her a mandate to negotiate Brexit.  I fear little else will matter.

And I am, really, really not worried.  I may be irritated and frustrated - but hey - that's for me to deal with,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I haven't seen any proposals or manifestos apart from leaked ones so I am unable at this time to make an informed decision which is the way I deal with elections, not with some pre conceived idea.  You chucked two numbers in the air and came away with the number you preferred.
		
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So when you said you'd go for the best of the bad bunch when this is a thread about May who are your candidates - Nuttall in there is he?  Farron?  And all this talk from May about _Coalition of Chaos_; _Strong and Stable - _none of that matters for you.

Excellent. Glad to hear that you will not be swayed by mere words and headlines from the usual suspects - but that it will be the manifestos that matter.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So when you said you'd go for the best of the bad bunch when this is a thread about May who are your candidates - Nuttall in there is he?  Farron?  And all this talk from May about _Coalition of Chaos_; _Strong and Stable - _none of that matters for you.

Excellent. Glad to hear that you will not be swayed by mere words and headlines from the usual suspects - but that it will be the manifestos that matter.
		
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Unlike you who has already made up your mind without a shred of data to Base it on. You sound like one of those historic voters where nothing would change year on year.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So when you said you'd go for the best of the bad bunch when this is a thread about May who are your candidates - Nuttall in there is he?  Farron?  And all this talk from May about _Coalition of Chaos_; _Strong and Stable - _none of that matters for you.

Excellent. Glad to hear that you will not be swayed by mere words and headlines from the usual suspects - but that it will be the manifestos that matter.
		
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So who do you favour? 

In terms of PM material I can't see past May, which makes it painful because I don't like many of the Tory policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			So who do you favour? 

In terms of PM material I can't see past May, which makes it painful because I don't like many of the Tory policies.
		
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In truth - May will be PM.  I would have voted Labour - but Corbyn? nope. Largely because of the mess he has made of the Labour position on the EU debate. If there is a Progressive Alliance candidate then she will get my vote - if not then LibDems.  So Tim Farron for PM - hurrah!

I thought that May was PM material.  But day by day - and yesterday evenings performance just confirmed it for me - she's actually verging on hopeless.  Just not up to it.

Bring back Tony.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In truth - May will be PM.  I would have voted Labour - but Corbyn? nope. Largely because of the mess he has made of the Labour position on the EU debate. *If there is a Progressive Alliance candidate then she will get my vote* - if not then LibDems.  So Tim Farron for PM - hurrah!

I thought that May was PM material.  But day by day - and yesterday evenings performance just confirmed it for me - she's actually verging on hopeless.  Just not up to it.

Bring back Tony.
		
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Don't they have male candidates ?


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## Blue in Munich (May 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In truth - May will be PM.  I would have voted Labour - but Corbyn? nope. Largely because of the mess he has made of the Labour position on the EU debate. If there is a *Progressive Alliance *candidate then she will get my vote - if not then LibDems.  So Tim Farron for PM - hurrah!

I thought that May was PM material.  But day by day - and yesterday evenings performance just confirmed it for me - she's actually verging on hopeless.  Just not up to it.

Bring back Tony.
		
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Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the policies or the manifesto promises of the Progressive Alliance?  Looking at the website there doesn't seem to be anything being a Stop the Tories message; no policy on Europe, Health, Immigration, Policing, Taxation, nothing but wouldn't it be clever to stop the Tories.

Coalition of Chaos sounds about right.  There doesn't seem to be a plan after they've stopped them.  Wasn't that part of your issue with Brexit, the lack of a plan, yet you'd be happy to vote for that here?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			So who do you favour? 

In terms of PM material I can't see past May, which makes it painful because I don't like many of the Tory policies.
		
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David Milliband &#128513;. He is an option isn't he? I had a weird dream that his rubbish brother won instead and then some little known fringe MP followed him. Strange dream, must have eaten something strange.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Still not sure I've seen an explanation on how The Supreme Leader will deliver nett immigration in the 10s of thousands,  given #1 Brexit guru and champion *@SR *has told us repeatedly that immigration will be _managed to the level that the economy requires_.  

And also what happens to the nett 167,000 non-EU immigrants - many of whom voted to Leave on the understanding that the rules would be relaxed to enable more from South Asia to come to the UK post Brexit.


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## drdel (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Still not sure I've seen an explanation on how The Supreme Leader will deliver nett immigration in the 10s of thousands,  given #1 Brexit guru and champion *@SR *has told us repeatedly that immigration will be _managed to the level that the economy requires_.  

And also what happens to the nett 167,000 non-EU immigrants - many of whom voted to Leave on the understanding that the rules would be relaxed to enable more from South Asia to come to the UK post Brexit.
		
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Its pretty clear from your repeated comments/opinions on here, the election and Brexit threads that you are not a fan of the PM/Tories, Brexit, etc and nothing will alter your doctrine so any attempt to answer is pointless.


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## IanM (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And also what happens to the nett 167,000 non-EU immigrants - many of whom voted to Leave on the understanding that the rules would be relaxed to enable more from South Asia to come to the UK post Brexit.
		
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Gosh, if you went round to ask all those folk how and why they voted, how do you find time to post on here?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

drdel said:



			Its pretty clear from your repeated comments/opinions on here, the election and Brexit threads that you are not a fan of the PM/Tories, Brexit, etc and nothing will alter your doctrine so any attempt to answer is pointless.
		
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So what's the answer then...The Supreme Leader has made it clear that this is what's going to be n her manifesto. Or is there no answer so just answer with a personal attack on the person who asked the question.

I note that @SR has been totally silent on this - he who would have _immigration at the level required by the economy_ to answer how that stacks up against 10s of thousands.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

IanM said:



			Gosh, if you went round to ask all those folk how and why they voted, how do you find time to post on here?
		
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And so you've got the answer for me so that I don't have to ask again...go on then - 10s of thousands - how and when?

Or is The Supreme Leader so revered and untouchable that no matter what she says she must not be questioned or doubted - and when she spouts rubbish - well that's OK because all politicians spout rubbish.  No matter that she sells herself as honest and straight.


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## IanM (May 17, 2017)

Nope, I haven't a clue, each of us has their own reason(s) for how they voted.....  your post stated otherwise


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

IanM said:



			Nope, I haven't a clue, each of us has their own reason(s) for how they voted.....  your post stated otherwise
		
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So do you think the 10s of thousands pledge is realistic in any way whatsoever - or is it just dog-whistle politics aimed at those who voted for Brexit on the grounds of strict immigration control.  Get their votes; get their Tory MP; then tell all that the pledge is going to be impossible to deliver in one parliament, so you'll have to put the Tories in again in 2021/2 and 2026/7.

The Supreme Leader - Stable and Secure - Honest and Straight.  Yup that's our Theresa.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

Is this about whether the current PM is up for the job or just an extention thread for SILH and his fishers of men to express their hatred on all things that don't agree with them. What has immigration, Scottish  Independence and Bexit got to do with it or is the opposition just a bunch of one trick ponies.

Funny how one of the countries leading political journalist and a staunch Labour man thinks the Brexit issue has moved to the back burner with the majority of the public.


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## User62651 (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Is this about whether the current PM is up for the job or just an extention thread for SILH and his fishers of men to express their hatred on all things that don't agree with them. What has *immigration, Scottish  Independence and Brexit* got to do with it or is the opposition just a bunch of one trick ponies.

Funny how one of the countries leading political journalist and a staunch Labour man thinks the Brexit issue has moved to the back burner with the majority of the public.
		
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Are they not three of the most important UK issues facing the current PM so are part of her job and hence relevant to thread 'Not up to the Job of PM?' - there is a question mark there so it's up for debate. Some will defend her others attack, dont see the issue? You give as good as you get on here, is that not the point of the forum?


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

From a public point of view Brexit and Scottish Independence have been dealt with in a democratic vote, now it's up to the next political party to deal with the consequences.  Surely there are other issues without banging on with issues that are going on in other threads.

Just a thought.


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## User62651 (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			From a public point of view Brexit and Scottish Independence have been dealt with in a democratic vote, now it's up to the next political party to deal with the consequences.  Surely there are other issues without banging on with issues that are going on in other threads.

Just a thought.
		
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Topics do wander across threads, that's true. Mods usually sort categorisation/crossover/duplication issues. 

Mods...... MODS......... MAWWWDDS!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



*Is this about whether the current PM is up for the job* or just an extention thread for SILH and his fishers of men to express their hatred on all things that don't agree with them. What has immigration, Scottish  Independence and Bexit got to do with it or is the opposition just a bunch of one trick ponies.

Funny how one of the countries leading political journalist and a staunch Labour man thinks the Brexit issue has moved to the back burner with the majority of the public.
		
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She might be up *for* the job - the question was whether she is up* to* it.  At the outset I thought she might be but that thought went out the window months ago as soon as she started on her _'Leaving means out of the SM and out of the CU - but I'll still get us the best deal and a free trade agreement' _and more recently on her _10s of thousand nett immigration _pledge nonsense.  Add to that her cynical ploy in calling a GE when she said she wouldn't with the simple objective of wiping out Labour and getting a huge parliamentary majority to justify whatever she wants to put in her manifesto - most of which won't make one iota of impact on the thinking of the many who will voter for their Tory Party candidate - because they revere The Supreme Leader.

And Brexit is crucial because it is all that May is really talking about and it is on Brexit negotiations that she chooses to draw the distinction between herself and Corbyn.  And it is all smoke and mirrors - she is not what she is acting - she is doing and saying what Lynton Crosby is telling her to do, and afrter the election and into the EU negotiations I fear we will see The Supreme Leaders new clothes for what they are - non-existent.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2017)

Do I think she's up to the job? I'm not sure.

Do I think Corbyn is? Not ever!

Do I think wee Nicola is? Maybe, but she'll never get enough seats in the HoC.

Tim Farron? Hahahahahhahahahahha.... breathe..... hahahahahahahaha

But when did it become a popularity contest?

Whose policies are best for the country? I thought we vote for a particular set of policies and manifesto?

Ok, lets look at it from the policy perspective, and lets say we choose May, seeing as its her performance that the thread is about. Vote on policy, and if she's not up to the job she'll get booted to the back benches.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what's the answer then...The Supreme Leader has made it clear that this is what's going to be n her manifesto. Or is there no answer so just answer with a personal attack on the person who asked the question.

*I note that @SR has been totally silent on this - he who would have immigration at the level required by the economy to answer how that stacks up against 10s of thousands*.
		
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I answered that question but you seem to be either too lazy or too blinkerd to accept it.  Now go read it and the apologise to me .  You wont like what I have said though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I answered that question but you seem to be either too lazy or too blinkerd to accept it.  Now go read it and the apologise to me .  You wont like what I have said though.
		
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Go on then - just paraphrase how 10s of thousands aligns with '_what the economy needs'_ - and why the 10s of thousands idea that you seem to dismiss is now OK - or is it.

Just for everyone else who can't be bothered ploughing back through the posts - because it is a question that many are asking and we need to know.

I found this




			Maybe 100,000 is enough to meet the ecconomic needs of the country, maybe it's too many as you keep telling us that after Brexit we will be on our knees and impoverished with no jobs, young people...
		
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Is that it.  Is that the best you've got.  Pretty feeble.  

How does she *know *that under 100,000 will meet the economic needs of the country?  Because she is *pledging *under 100,000.  

How does she get the non-EU immigration level down by a huge number (nett 169,000 - huge cf 10s of thousands) when many from India, Pakistan expect non-EU immigration from those countries to increase when we are out?

Ah - and your last words are prophetic - when things post-Brexit aren't quite the land of milk and honey where unicorns abound, it will be the fault of Remainers talking the country down before we left.  Yup.  We are the problem.  Obvious really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Do I think she's up to the job? I'm not sure.

Do I think Corbyn is? Not ever!

Do I think wee Nicola is? Maybe, but she'll never get enough seats in the HoC.

Tim Farron? Hahahahahhahahahahha.... breathe..... hahahahahahahaha

But when did it become a popularity contest?

Whose policies are best for the country? I thought we vote for a particular set of policies and manifesto?

Ok, lets look at it from the policy perspective, and lets say we choose May, seeing as its her performance that the thread is about. Vote on policy, and if she's not up to the job she'll get booted to the back benches.
		
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May and the RWP have made it a popularity and personality contest...

Let's see what the Theresa May Manifesto says today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't they have male candidates ?
		
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I don't know.  When I posted I had not seen it confirmed that the (female) NHA Party candidate would stand under a Progressive Alliance banner.  Election leaflet through yesterday evening indicates that she is.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Go on then - just paraphrase how 10s of thousands aligns with '_what the economy needs'_ - and why the 10s of thousands idea that you seem to dismiss is now OK - or is it.

Just for everyone else who can't be bothered ploughing back through the posts - because it is a question that many are asking and we need to know.
		
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So you are too lazy to read it even though you accused me of not answering a number of times


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are too lazy to read it even though you accused me of not answering a number of times
		
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yup - but I did - as I guessed that you wouldn't


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## chrisd (May 18, 2017)

Just a very hypothetical question. 

Should the Lib Dems win the election (I know, stop laughing at the back of the class) is their manifesto saying that we will have vote on the terms negotiated to say 

1 - if we vote against them we will order renegotiation until they get it right

2 - or, will we ask to stay in the EU


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			...
But when did it become a popularity contest?

Whose policies are best for the country? I thought we vote for a particular set of policies and manifesto?
...
		
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It has really ALWAYS been a popularity contest!! With policies/manifesto having a minor role!

While I have some reservations about her ability as PM, she seems the 'best' in her party currently. There's no likelihood of her being challenged by Labour while Corbyn is leader; Lib-Dems are currently in disarray, with no real leadership; UKIP is disintegrating after achieving its primary objective; SNP might 'own' all Scottish electorate, but has no real influence at Westminster! So she happens to have 'timed' it rather well and may grow into the role!


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2017)

I don't care, I just want her to win now although I personally might vote Lib Dem just so SILH can continue his ever magnificent rants and perhaps, insist on another election because he didn't like the results


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I don't care, I just want her to win now although I personally might vote Lib Dem just so SILH can continue his ever magnificent rants and perhaps, insist on another election because he didn't like the results
		
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At least with GEs the Great British Public gets a repeat go every 5 yrs if we don't like the outcome of our previous decision / settled will.  When we find out that some of the things we were promised didn't happen, and some things we were told wouldn't happen or weren't told about at all - did

mini rant?  well it's over...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

At moment listening to radio outside broadcast ahead of Theresa May speech - did I hear her ringtone go off in the background?  I'm sure it was _'Oh Come All Ye Faithful' _- but I might have been imagining things


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At moment listening to radio outside broadcast ahead of Theresa May speech - did I hear her ringtone go off in the background?  I'm sure it was _'Oh Come All Ye Faithful' _- but I might have been imagining things 

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She is a very religious person.


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## Raesy92 (May 18, 2017)

Apologies if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but what is it that everyone seems to hate about Jeremy Corbyn?

Everyone states that politicians are liars and can't trust any of them, where as Corbyn seems to stick to his principles and is not liked by many? BTW I am not a Labour voter, and probably won't vote them in this election. However they have produced a very promising manifesto and seem to be based on Corbyn's principles.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Apologies if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but what is it that everyone seems to hate about Jeremy Corbyn?

Everyone states that politicians are liars and can't trust any of them, where as Corbyn seems to stick to his principles and is not liked by many? BTW I am not a Labour voter, and probably won't vote them in this election. However they have produced a very promising manifesto and seem to be based on Corbyn's principles.
		
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Absolutely nothing about Corbyn that I hate - or indeed particularly dislike - he talks a lot of sense and promotes considerate and compassionate policies.  

I was very disappointed that he took such a weak position in the EU ref debate.  Unfortunately I just don't think he has a chance of becoming PM.  The Right Wing Press - followed and quoted assiduously by Fervent Brexiteers; Socialism and Left Wing haters and acolytes of The Supreme Leader - just make that very near impossible.  

Maybe not a Corbyn lover - most certainly not a Corbyn hater.

And why there so many here?  Well - it's a pan-UK golf forum...and too many folks across the UK these days suffer from the worst form of 'ism'. (I Self Me).  And if you got that 'ism' then you ain't going to like Corbyn.  And this forum is just a sample of a specific demographic, and so more nor less likely to suffer from that 'ism'


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Apologies if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but what is it that everyone seems to hate about Jeremy Corbyn?

Everyone states that politicians are liars and can't trust any of them, where as Corbyn seems to stick to his principles and is not liked by many? BTW I am not a Labour voter, and probably won't vote them in this election. However they have produced a very promising manifesto and seem to be based on Corbyn's principles.
		
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I don't hate him, nor do I think I hate anyone.

So what has led me to dislike Corbyn as a politician? Whilst I agree that ultimately the only way to settle conflict is with dialogue, it has to be conducted at governmental levels. It may even be behind closed doors and off the radar, e.g. the Thatcher and Blair govts dealings with the IRA. Whilst those behind the doors discussions/negotiations are going the public stance has to be to condemn violence. 

Not to do so legitimises the use of violence in a conflict. It undermines the government's position and engenders support for the terror organisation. 

Where those terror organisations are operating in a foreign conflict, e.g. Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine/Isreal, an MP from a foreign country should not get involved. Corbyn inviting Hamas and Hezbollah to the steps of Westminster was wrong on so many different levels. For example, how would that be reported in the Beirut Gazette? "British politician supports the armed struggle in Palestine." And what would that do for our relations with the government of that country?

Behind the scenes I dare say the Foreign Office were trying to help end the conflict, along with many countries around the world. Having Corbyn undermine those efforts and, potentially, add legitimacy to a terror organisation is, in my eyes wholly wrong.

Then move onto his obvious lack of commitment to the defence of the UK and its NATO allies... he doesn't leave me feeling secure.

As a person I like him, and I like many of his social values. I also like an awful lot of what is in the Labour manifesto. But lets look at the cost of renationalisation. Where are Labour going to get Â£XXX billion from for just some of the renationalisation? And if they can get that much money via taxation, plough it into the NHS and Education first. 

Ah, but all we have to do with the railways is let the franchises run out. And no doubt the nationalised railways would have to find an absolute fortune to replace the old rolling stock that the franchisee hasn't replaced after Labour take office.

Corbyn himself said in an interview with the BBC that the cost of renationalisation hasn't been identified because we won't know the share price we will agree on with the owners.

The Labour manifesto, in a number of key areas, is a cuddly, lets make the people feel warm document that is a fairy tale. There's some good in there that do-able, but there's too much in there that isn't do-able without bankrupting the country(again).

But Labour has to be viewed beyond one person. Corbyn, nice guy, passionate and caring. Come across better than I originally thought, and I warm to him up to a point. McDonnell, out and out Marxist and, occasionally, sounds like a bully - don't trust him. Abbott, I'd get an infraction for saying what I think about her politics and racism.

Would I vote Labour, not in its current form but yes if it was more centre-ist, as in Blair's early days before his God complex.


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## FairwayDodger (May 18, 2017)

Does anyone think rail franchises are replacing rolling stock as their term runs out regardless of whether they're being renationalised or up for retender?


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 18, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does anyone think rail franchises are replacing rolling stock as their term runs out regardless of whether they're being renationalised or up for retender?
		
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Just noticed quite a lot of new carriages on my journey into London from Hertfordshire, so someone is spending money, plus we do have a very good, reliable and frequent service.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2017)

This strong and stable Tory government seems to be destroying many of the previous strong and stable Tory governments policies.


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## FairwayDodger (May 18, 2017)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Just noticed quite a lot of new carriages on my journey into London from Hertfordshire, so someone is spending money, plus we do have a very good, reliable and frequent service.
		
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How long left in the franchise?


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2017)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Just noticed quite a lot of new carriages on my journey into London from Hertfordshire, so someone is spending money, plus we do have a very good, reliable and frequent service.
		
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And that rolling stock has a value. The franchise is to run a railway. When a Franchise is sold to a different company, the stock is usually sold from the previous franchisee to the new franchisee. The stock won't revert to govt ownership at the end of each franchise. Even if the franchises are left to run down, what price the stock to sell back to the govt?

When British Rail was privatised the stock sold to the franchisees was appalling, as was time keeping etc. The service we have now, for all the complaints, is a whole load better than what we previously had.


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## FairwayDodger (May 18, 2017)

And tickets are a whole load more expensive? To be honest, I haven't got a strong view on railway nationalisation but find it hard to sift through the dogma on both sides.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			How long left in the franchise?
		
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There's multiple franchises, many having different end dates, e.g. Arriva Northern renewed there's last year, I think. Thinking of Return on Investment I'd be surprised if any of them were less than 10 years.

Edit: I've just looked at Arriva's franchise agreement. Its over 600 pages long, and even finding the term is difficult. Also, the requirements to run the franchise look costly, covering everything from smart ticketing to buffet cars. It won't be a one year contract!


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## User62651 (May 18, 2017)

Ironic that some of our private rail networks are owned by European state railways - they offer their own people affordable state subsidised fares in their countries and make up the difference by charging Brits exorbitant prices on our private networks.  

Being state owned can be a good thing.


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## FairwayDodger (May 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			There's multiple franchises, many having different end dates, e.g. Arriva Northern renewed there's last year, I think. Thinking of Return on Investment I'd be surprised if any of them were less than 10 years.

Edit: I've just looked at Arriva's franchise agreement. Its over 600 pages long, and even finding the term is difficult. Also, the requirements to run the franchise look costly, covering everything from smart ticketing to buffet cars. It won't be a one year contract!
		
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Yes, I meant the one AAC was talking about with the new rolling stock. My assumption (that's all it is) is that the franchisee doesn't invest much towards the end of their term.


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## ger147 (May 18, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, I meant the one AAC was talking about with the new rolling stock. My assumption (that's all it is) is that the franchisee doesn't invest much towards the end of their term.
		
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I can't find any corroboration online just now but I'm sure I read sonewhere that ScotRail's rolling stock is rented.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			And tickets are a whole load more expensive? To be honest, I haven't got a strong view on railway nationalisation but find it hard to sift through the dogma on both sides.
		
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I'm on the verge of not voting. There's no set of policies from any of 'em that appeal. I do think there's a lot of flashy neon lit stuff that is only there as vote winners, and will never make it to or through Parliament.

Never felt so far away from any of the doctrines... maybe I'm just too old and set in my ways for all the rubbish.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

And so The Supreme Leader has spoken - and initial feedback I'm hearing is not that complementary...

I can't comment as, other than the headline Social Care proposal, I have not heard what she had to say.  But sounds like subsocialist could be one description


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so The Supreme Leader has spoken - and initial feedback I'm hearing is not that complementary...

I can't comment as, other than the headline Social Care proposal, I have not heard what she had to say.  But sounds like subsocialist could be one description 

Click to expand...

I don't think she mentioned income tax.......make sure you read the small print, you know how truthful thon Tories are.
She did say 'strong and stable' four times, five if you include the warm up guy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think she mentioned income tax.......make sure you read the small print, you know how truthful thon Tories are.
She did say 'strong and stable' four times, five if you include the warm up guy.
		
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I could go around saying that I'm SaS.  But truth is - if someone really threatened me I might throw a wobbly and run away.  Self-preservation.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*And so The Supreme Leader has spoken* - and initial feedback I'm hearing is not that complementary...

I can't comment as, other than the headline Social Care proposal, I have not heard what she had to say.  But sounds like subsocialist could be one description 

Click to expand...

See, you are doing it again.  Name calling, you don't like it but are the leading proponent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			See, you are doing it again.  Name calling, you don't like it but are the leading proponent.
		
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Is she not a Supreme Leader?  Better than being a mugwump - and that from our Foreign Secretary. Never mind wee Jimmy Krankie.

Actually I think is the opposite of name calling - it's quite reverential in it's own way.  So Nah.  I think I'll just stick with The Supreme Leader - she who must be obeyed and followed without question as she will deliver the Great Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is she not a Supreme Leader?  Better than being a mugwump - and that from our Foreign Secretary. Never mind wee Jimmy Krankie.

Actually I think is the opposite of name calling - it's quite reverential in it's own way.  So Nah.  I think I'll just stick with The Supreme Leader - she who must be obeyed and followed without question as she will deliver the Great Brexit.
		
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That's fine, you are at will to call her what you want, no one takes you seriously anyway as you seem to always back the loser..  Well,  maybe your other two or three Trolling mates do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's fine, you are at will to call her what you want, no one takes you seriously anyway as you seem to always back the loser..  Well,  maybe your other two or three Trolling mates do.
		
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ho hum - yaaaaawn...


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## Crazyface (May 19, 2017)

I was a believer of what she said at the start of her reign, but the more I hear what she says the more I don't believe her. I just don't hear the sincerity in her voice. I think she MAY be telling some untruths. Reduce immigration to the "tens of thousands" indeed.


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## Hacker Khan (May 19, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I was a believer of what she said at the start of her reign, but the more I hear what she says the more I don't believe her. I just don't hear the sincerity in her voice. *I think she MAY be telling some untruths*. Reduce immigration to the "tens of thousands" indeed.

Click to expand...

No she's not. The Daily Bigot told me so.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I was a believer of what she said at the start of her reign, but the more I hear what she says the more I don't believe her. I just don't hear the sincerity in her voice. I think she MAY be telling some untruths. Reduce immigration to the "tens of thousands" indeed.

Click to expand...

Seems pretty similar to my views!

I thought she was far and away the best candidate - the only realistic one in fact - for the role, but had reservations about the blinkered/forceful style she used as Home Secretary on several occasions. She started out better than I thought, but her reaction to the High Court ruling was back to the belligerent style! Can be a good thing, but not when so obviously wrong - as she was several times as H/Sec!

She is, however, saying the things that appeal to traditional Conservatives! And if the Daily Wail likes what she says.....

There's not really any opposition though anyway! I think the best hope for a more 'caring' result is for Lib-Dems to somehow grab sufficient seats (from devout remainers?) to leave her in the same (or possibly worse!) position as she is now - having to make deals in order to get legislation through! Of course, that would threaten the entire Brexit process with another referendum!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Seems pretty similar to my views!

I thought she was far and away the best candidate - the only realistic one in fact - for the role, but had reservations about the blinkered/forceful style she used as Home Secretary on several occasions. She started out better than I thought, but her reaction to the High Court ruling was back to the belligerent style! Can be a good thing, but not when so obviously wrong - as she was several times as H/Sec!
		
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I agree with this view of May.

But as said on the Ge 2017 thread my opinion of her went up a bit yesterday simply based upon her stated principle:

_(to) reject the cult of selfish individualism_

These are but words that espouse a philosophy that I fear she will find a very hard sell.

Better - but nowhere near back to where she was in my eyes and hopes for Brexit when she was elected leader.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I was a believer of what she said at the start of her reign, but the more I hear what she says the more I don't believe her. I just don't hear the sincerity in her voice. I think she MAY be telling some untruths. Reduce immigration to the "tens of thousands" indeed.

Click to expand...

The whole country knows that reducing the immigration figure to that level is impossible..................but she still repeats it despite what we hear are robust warnings from her cabinet
Most folk do not like being taken for mugs, it could be her downfall.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The whole country knows that reducing the immigration figure to that level is impossible..................but she still repeats it despite what we hear are robust warnings from her cabinet
Most folk do not like being taken for mugs, it could be her downfall.
		
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Expectations and capabilities- just like golfers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

*Honesty from The Supreme Leader on Brexit Negotiations*

_If we fail, the consequences for Britain and for the economic security of ordinary working people will be dire. If we succeed, the opportunities ahead of us are great._

I'm wondering what failure looks like - because the bottom line is _No Deal _and so that must rank as a failure?

*Blucialism*

_A stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain that works for everyone, not just a privileged few.
_
We'll see...


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## shagster (May 19, 2017)

a bit rich from you socket


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2017)

Superb idea, I can really see this working.
Well done The Supreme Leader.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ternet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Superb idea, I can really see this working.
Well done The Supreme Leader.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ternet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

Click to expand...

Silly boy


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## Hacker Khan (May 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Superb idea, I can really see this working.
Well done The Supreme Leader.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ternet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

Click to expand...

Probably a bit of artistic license with the headline.  But make no mistake, for a party that champions personal freedom and minimal government intervention, this is yet another nasty policy that the tories will sneak in on the quiet, aided by the right wing press whose job it is to try and maintain a panic in middle England, that will allow the government to effectively snoop on everything you do. Or perhaps I am just paranoid. But that doesn't mean that they are not after me.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Probably a bit of artistic license with the headline.  But make no mistake, for a party that champions personal freedom and minimal government intervention, this is yet another nasty policy that the tories will sneak in on the quiet, aided by the right wing press whose job it is to try and maintain a panic in middle England, that will allow the government to effectively snoop on everything you do. Or perhaps I am just paranoid. But that doesn't mean that they are not after me.  

Click to expand...

You must try harder.  That is pathetic, it really is


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2017)

shagster said:



			a bit rich from you socket
		
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It's normal practice when commenting on someones previous post to quote it, that way we can understand what you are referring to and comprehend the context of your post.  Just like I have here.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Honesty from The Supreme Leader on Brexit Negotiations*

_If we fail, the consequences for Britain and for the economic security of ordinary working people will be dire. If we succeed, the opportunities ahead of us are great._

I'm wondering what failure looks like - because the bottom line is _No Deal _and so that must rank as a failure?

*Blucialism*

_A stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain that works for everyone, not just a privileged few.
_
We'll see...
		
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Pasteur may have been able to help you


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## JohnnyDee (May 19, 2017)

Sorry haven't read the thread but there's one thing we can be sure of. She's strong and stable...have I got that right? :mmm:

Oh and will only participate in stage managed appearances as she's afraid to drop a clanger that might expose the Central Office spin about her as being nothing but utter rubbish.

In my view has all the personality and charisma of a blob of chewing gum stuck to the pavement.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2017)

I see 'running up steps to the podium' is the new strong and stable.

Works well for The Supreme Leader, not so good for a podgy Ruthy.
They probably have to do a risk assessment on the steps for her.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see 'running up steps to the podium' is the new strong and stable.

Works well for The Supreme Leader, not so good for a podgy Ruthy.
They probably have to do a risk assessment on the steps for her.
		
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A bit like having to put a foot stool in place for your girl.


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			A bit like having to put a foot stool in place for your girl.
		
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  :rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Pasteur may have been able to help you 

Click to expand...

over my head that one...


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## shagster (May 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It's normal practice when commenting on someones previous post to quote it, that way we can understand what you are referring to and comprehend the context of your post.  Just like I have here.
		
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re post 404


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2017)

May has spoken up on the Brexit bill. If the EU won't include the UK's share of joint EU assets, e.g. the EU Investment Bank with the UK share being Â£10bn, the exit bill is excluded too.


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## User62651 (May 21, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			May has spoken up on the Brexit bill. If the EU won't include the UK's share of joint EU assets, e.g. the EU Investment Bank with the UK share being Â£10bn, the exit bill is excluded too.
		
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Whoop de doo - Why would you believe a word she says, changes her view on everything to suit her own agenda? Feeble attempt at electioneering from the safety of a Telegraph interview. May's flapping already by Labour proving a tougher opponent than she thought and poll lead reducing albeit slightly. Her default deflective response to everything - release some unsubstantiated soundbite on Brexit despite saying she wouldn't show her hand in advance of negotiations and not understanding that 48% of country (who voted) dislike it. Nuts. 

So hoping this GE goes bad for her. Dreadful PM.

Please Tory party, get a new leader. Bring back Dave even.......honestly.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Whoop de doo - Why would you believe a word she says, changes her view on everything to suit her own agenda? Feeble attempt at electioneering from the safety of a Telegraph interview. May's flapping already by Labour proving a tougher opponent than she thought and poll lead reducing albeit slightly. Her default deflective response to everything - release some unsubstantiated soundbite on Brexit despite saying she wouldn't show her hand in advance of negotiations and not understanding that 48% of country (who voted) dislike it. Nuts. 

So hoping this GE goes bad for her. Dreadful PM.

Please Tory party, get a new leader. Bring back Dave even.......honestly.

Click to expand...

I believe none of them. Every single one of them, across all parties have been proven liars in the last couple of weeks.

But at least May isn't rolling over on the Brexit Bill, unlike Corbyn who's willing to roll over on everything


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

shagster said:



			re post 404
		
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Bit late now.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			over my head that one...
		
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I'll help you out then:

What did Pasteur find a cure for and what can your posts be described as.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Whoop de doo - Why would you believe a word she says, changes her view on everything to suit her own agenda? Feeble attempt at electioneering from the safety of a Telegraph interview. May's flapping already by Labour proving a tougher opponent than she thought and poll lead reducing albeit slightly. Her default deflective response to everything - release some unsubstantiated soundbite on Brexit despite saying she wouldn't show her hand in advance of negotiations and not understanding that 48% of country (who voted) dislike it. Nuts. 

So hoping this GE goes bad for her. Dreadful PM.

Please Tory party, get a new leader. Bring back Dave even.......honestly.

Click to expand...

Oh dear! Oh deary me!!  You do get yourself in a bit of a lather, does the red mist settle sometimes or is it something you have to live with.


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## User62651 (May 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear! Oh deary me!!  You do get yourself in a bit of a lather, does the red mist settle sometimes or is it something you have to live with.
		
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Nothing substantive to add to the discussion?.................. just like Theresa May!


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## shagster (May 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Nothing substantive to add to the discussion?.................. just like Theresa May!

Click to expand...

you have noticed that as well


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

U-turn on Social Care manifesto pledge - or with a cap have you just made it less equitable - strong and stable?  really?


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			U-turn on Social Care manifesto pledge - or with a cap have you just made it less equitable - strong and stable?  really?
		
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Yet another flip flop from the pm. Basically you can't believe anything she says.


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## patricks148 (May 22, 2017)

No, she wasn't up to the Job of Home sec either.


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## jp5 (May 22, 2017)

Quite worrying how anyone can believe that the PM can handle Brexit negotiations given her track record here. 

Can't trust anything she says.

Barnier and co. will have a field day!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Quite worrying how anyone can believe that the PM can handle Brexit negotiations given her track record here. 

Can't trust anything she says.

Barnier and co. will have a field day!
		
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Listening to her in Wales - she was all over the place...

Easy enough to act a part when it doesn't matter or the only folks watching are your friends - add pressure...the mask slips.


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## User62651 (May 22, 2017)

Listening to Sky New at mo, all they keep saying is 'Dementia Tax' over and over and over so it's got bedded into conciousnesses already. If Corbyn himself or one of his team came up with the term 'Dementia Tax' it's a brilliant move. May is getting defensive and flustered by it today and its turning into a biggish problem to spin her way out of. 

'Manifesto of chaos' is also getting repeated regularly and catching on.

After weeks of 'strong and stable' its at least balanced to have some slogans going back at her.

At least if/when May wins she'll have had to work and earn this GE (that she called) win rather than just what looked like a coronation at the outset, hopefully with her neck wound in a bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Listening to Sky New at mo, all they keep saying is 'Dementia Tax' over and over and over so it's got bedded into conciousnesses already. If Corbyn himself or one of his team came up with the term 'Dementia Tax' it's a brilliant move. May is getting defensive and flustered by it today and its turning into a biggish problem to spin her way out of. 

'Manifesto of chaos' is also getting repeated regularly and catching on.

After weeks of 'strong and stable' its at least balanced to have some slogans going back at her.

At least if/when May wins she'll have had to work and earn this GE (that she called) win rather than just what looked like a coronation at the outset, hopefully with her neck wound in a bit.
		
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This ^^^ :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (May 22, 2017)

Well, nice to see that after stealing most of UKIPs policies they are now stealing some of Labour's on Social Care.  Strong and stable as she goes...


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## larmen (May 22, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			... stealing ... policies they are now stealing ..
		
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OK, here is a generic thing I don't understand. And it's not about any single party,it's about all of them.

There are people that voted conservatives, and will b doing all their life. And there are people that are voting labour, and will be all their life. Same in the US with Democrats and Republicans, same in Germany with CDU and SPD, same all over the place.


Going back to the UK, what makes people that voted for Blair now vote for Corbin? What makes people that voted for Cameron now vote for May? They are so far apart from each other, they are basically voting for a different party but with the same name?

If you voted for Tony's 'war mongering' politic, why vote 'lefty' Corbin? If you voted for David's open society, why vote for 'hard Brexit' May?


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2017)

larmen said:



			OK, here is a generic thing I don't understand. And it's not about any single party,it's about all of them.

There are people that voted conservatives, and will b doing all their life. And there are people that are voting labour, and will be all their life. Same in the US with Democrats and Republicans, same in Germany with CDU and SPD, same all over the place.


Going back to the UK, what makes people that voted for Blair now vote for Corbin? What makes people that voted for Cameron now vote for May? They are so far apart from each other, they are basically voting for a different party but with the same name?

If you voted for Tony's 'war mongering' politic, why vote 'lefty' Corbin? If you voted for David's open society, why vote for 'hard Brexit' May?
		
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I voted for Blair twice, I believed he was a good statesman and had the makings of a good prime Minister.   I lost faith in him later due to the way he and brown behaved and his policy of mass immigration.  Most of my life I have voted Tory but I am capable of voting for others if I can see they would be better for the country.  Thats why Corbyn would never have my vote.


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## Raesy92 (May 22, 2017)

The longer this election campaign goes on, the more difficult it is getting to fathom why anyone would vote for TM and her policies.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The longer this election campaign goes on, the more difficult it is getting to fathom why anyone would vote for TM and her policies.
		
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But you are looking at the situation through filters.  You have a filter that removes anything positive from the Tories and probably no filter for Labour.   Any reasonable person could pick out some policy from any of the Parties that they could go along with.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The longer this election campaign goes on, the more difficult it is getting to fathom why anyone would vote for TM and her policies.
		
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I think one of the main reasons will be because of the alternative.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Worrying that TM will be responsible for brexit negotiations with her track record of capitulating when things get difficult.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Worrying that TM will be responsible for brexit negotiations with her track record of capitulating when things get difficult.
		
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Her interview yesterday was completely laughable. If anyone ever tried to use "strong" or "stable" to describe her they couldn't be further from the truth. Combine that with keeping policies away from key members of her cabinet, her ineptitude answering questions that aren't fully scrited, her constant need to shout "Corbyn" everytime she struggles with her answer then I genuinly think that she could be the worst prime minister in the last 20/30 years. No backbone, doesn't appear to have any views that aren't liable to extreme change, can't handle questions. JC I definitely didn't think was the answer at the start of this, but I would prefer him 100x over TM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Her interview yesterday was completely laughable. If anyone ever tried to use "strong" or "stable" to describe her they couldn't be further from the truth. Combine that with keeping policies away from key members of her cabinet, her ineptitude answering questions that aren't fully scrited, her constant need to shout "Corbyn" everytime she struggles with her answer then I genuinly think that she could be the worst prime minister in the last 20/30 years. No backbone, doesn't appear to have any views that aren't liable to extreme change, can't handle questions. JC I definitely didn't think was the answer at the start of this, but I would prefer him 100x over TM.
		
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It certainly makes you wonder...but I am not going to pass any judgement on her today.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It certainly makes you wonder...but I am not going to pass any judgement on her today.
		
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Yes, lets leave it today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, lets leave it today.
		
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:thup:


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## JohnnyDee (May 29, 2017)

Looking forward to May getting involved in a head to head with Corbyn tonight to finally silence those critics who say she's got no bottle, and she is being protected by Central Office by only doing tame, stage-managed safe appearances in case she drops a clanger.

She'll finally show us...

Eh, what's that? She's not going head to head? Bottled it again? Really? 

You're kidding!! :mmm:


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Looking forward to May getting involved in a head to head with Corbyn tonight to finally silence those critics who say she's got no bottle, and she is being protected by Central Office by only doing tame, stage-managed safe appearances in case she drops a clanger.

She'll finally show us...

Eh, what's that? She's not going head to head? Bottled it again? Really? 

You're kidding!! :mmm:

Click to expand...

Both bottled it and both agreed to the format but let's not let facts get in the way of a post.


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## JohnnyDee (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Both bottled it and both agreed to the format but let's not let facts get in the way of a post.
		
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Ah yes, of course. I was rather foolishly basing my post on the link below and countless other similar news agency reports - right from Huffington Post down to the very bottom of the barrel Daily Fail as my source. Silly old me. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39633696


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Ah yes, of course. I was rather foolishly basing my post on the link below and countless other similar news agency reports - right from Huffington Post down to the very bottom of the barrel Daily Fail as my source. Silly old me. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39633696

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Am I missing something here. CORBYN and May are about to debate on Channel 4. You do realise the link you've posted is from April...?


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## JohnnyDee (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Am I missing something here. CORBYN and May are about to debate on Channel 4. You do realise the link you've posted is from April...?
		
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Yes they are - but crucially not at the same time. Separate segments I'm afraid and not appearing together. Hence no head to head debating or interaction.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2017)

hmmmm.  Poor under pressure this evening.  S&S?  More like W&W.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmmm.  Poor under pressure this evening.  S&S?  More like W&W.
		
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I thought she came across very well.  Just the leader we need to get a good deal from Brexit.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2017)

Tonight's leaders questions.

May, 6/10. Spoke well but didn't really have a lot of substance behind her answers to the audience's questions. Too often reverted to we'll sort the detail after the GE. Sorry but I want to know what I'll be voting for, not what might happen.

Corbyn, 7/10. A better performance than May but all too often reverted to sound bite politics. "Ungoverned regions;" Sounds quite impressive when you hear him talking about it. In reality the debate about lack of governance  is, to a large extent, a red herring. Do large swathes of Africa, the Middle East and South America actually need governing when nobody lives there?

Paxman; appalling interviewing of both candidates. Far too often he didn't let either finish answering, and often went off track himself. Very disappointing.

At least Labour's manifesto has concrete proposals, albeit I'm still not convinced they are costed. Bonds to renationalise industries is still borrowing, whatever Labour wants to call it. 

Not sure which is the lesser of 2 evils.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight's leaders questions.

May, 6/10. Spoke well but didn't really have a lot of substance behind her answers to the audience's questions. Too often reverted to we'll sort the detail after the GE. Sorry but I want to know what I'll be voting for, not what might happen.

Corbyn, 7/10. A better performance than May but all too often reverted to sound bite politics. "Ungoverned regions;" Sounds quite impressive when you hear him talking about it. In reality the debate about lack of governance  is, to a large extent, a red herring. Do large swathes of Africa, the Middle East and South America actually need governing when nobody lives there?

Paxman; appalling interviewing of both candidates. Far too often he didn't let either finish answering, and often went off track himself. Very disappointing.

At least Labour's manifesto has concrete proposals, albeit I'm still not convinced they are costed. Bonds to renationalise industries is still borrowing, whatever Labour wants to call it. 

Not sure which is the lesser of 2 evils.
		
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Labour in Government negotiating Bexit.  Nah!


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight's leaders questions.

May, 6/10. Spoke well but didn't really have a lot of substance behind her answers to the audience's questions. Too often reverted to we'll sort the detail after the GE. Sorry but I want to know what I'll be voting for, not what might happen.

Corbyn, 7/10. A better performance than May but all too often reverted to sound bite politics. "Ungoverned regions;" Sounds quite impressive when you hear him talking about it. In reality the debate about lack of governance  is, to a large extent, a red herring. Do large swathes of Africa, the Middle East and South America actually need governing when nobody lives there?

Paxman; appalling interviewing of both candidates. Far too often he didn't let either finish answering, and often went off track himself. Very disappointing.

At least Labour's manifesto has concrete proposals, albeit I'm still not convinced they are costed. Bonds to renationalise industries is still borrowing, whatever Labour wants to call it. 

Not sure which is the lesser of 2 evils.
		
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I agree with this. In context where the tories and their ilk have been demonising Corbyn in attempt to portray him as unsuitable to be pm he was the winner last night showing himself to be at least as capable as May and certainly not the bogey man they've been making him out to be.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight's leaders questions.

May, 6/10. Spoke well but didn't really have a lot of substance behind her answers to the audience's questions. Too often reverted to we'll sort the detail after the GE. Sorry but I want to know what I'll be voting for, not what might happen.

Corbyn, 7/10. A better performance than May but all too often reverted to sound bite politics. "Ungoverned regions;" Sounds quite impressive when you hear him talking about it. In reality the debate about lack of governance  is, to a large extent, a red herring. Do large swathes of Africa, the Middle East and South America actually need governing when nobody lives there?

Paxman; appalling interviewing of both candidates. Far too often he didn't let either finish answering, and often went off track himself. Very disappointing.

*At least Labour's manifesto has concrete proposals*, albeit I'm still not convinced they are costed. Bonds to renationalise industries is still borrowing, whatever Labour wants to call it. 

Not sure which is the lesser of 2 evils.
		
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That combined with the fact I'd rather live in their version of society than the tories swings it for me.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I agree with this. In context where the tories and their ilk have been demonising Corbyn in attempt to portray him as unsuitable to be pm he was the winner last night showing himself to be at least as capable as May and *certainly not the bogey man they've been making him out to be*.
		
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I think that may come as a shock to a few Daily Bigot/Express/Times/Torygraph readers.


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## chrisd (May 30, 2017)

Paxman's interviewing was so bad that neither were going to answer questions properly.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought she came across very well.  Just the leader we need to get a good deal from Brexit.
		
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:rofl: I genuinely can't tell if you're joking? She didn't answer a single question, even the easy ones she knew were coming from the audience. She resorted to "stock" answers and phrases. Overall I would put her a couple of marks below Corbyn. I'm a traditional Tory but May (and her vision of Britain) scare me massively. It's clearly obvious why May wouldn't get involved in a head to head debate with other leaders, she would quite clearly be trounced.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			That combined with the fact I'd rather live in their version of society than the tories swings it for me.
		
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You highlighted half a sentence. How about the fact that it has been said that the renationalisation is not costed? Or how about the "garden tax" that has been found in the small print of the manifesto.

I don't doubt that the Tories have gone way too far in some areas of austerity but I, equally, would hate to see our economy end up as a basket case. Brexit is just around the corner, coming with a huge bill, and Labour want to go on a crazy spending spree. Financial suicide!

For choice, I don't want either a Tory govt nor a Labour one. Unfortunately that leaves either the SNP or LibDems...


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You highlighted half a sentence. How about the fact that it has been said that the renationalisation is not costed? Or how about the "garden tax" that has been found in the small print of the manifesto.

I don't doubt that the Tories have gone way too far in some areas of austerity but I, equally, would hate to see our economy end up as a basket case. Brexit is just around the corner, coming with a huge bill, and Labour want to go on a crazy spending spree. Financial suicide!

For choice, I don't want either a Tory govt nor a Labour one. Unfortunately that leaves either the SNP or LibDems...
		
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I hate to break it to you but neither of those will be forming a government.


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## User62651 (May 30, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I hate to break it to you but neither of those will be forming a government.
		
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I get that - I live in an SNP held constituency where the Liberal Democrats/Liberals held it pretty easily for 32 years before 2015. That's the only 2 horse race round here.

I always vote but if I want to vote blue or red it's a waste of a vote and my time. Understand the apathy of voters in so many safe seats.


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I get that - I live in an SNP held constituency where the Liberal Democrats/Liberals held it pretty easily for 32 years before 2015. That's the only 2 horse race round here.

I always vote but if I want to vote blue or red it's a waste of a vote and my time. Understand the apathy of voters in so many safe seats.
		
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Fair point. I'm not a fan of the electoral system but at least I'm in a constituency where my vote might matter.

My problem is that I'm away on Election Day and my postal vote hasn't arrived


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think that may come as a shock to a few Daily Bigot/Express/Times/Torygraph readers.
		
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Here you go again categorising people by Newspaper, pathetic really pathetic.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			:rofl: I genuinely can't tell if you're joking? She didn't answer a single question, even the easy ones she knew were coming from the audience. She resorted to "stock" answers and phrases. Overall I would put her a couple of marks below Corbyn. I'm a traditional Tory but May (and her vision of Britain) scare me massively. It's clearly obvious why May wouldn't get involved in a head to head debate with other leaders, she would quite clearly be trounced.
		
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Yes She did, She answered all of them.  They may not have been the answers you wanted though.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes She did, She answered all of them.  They may not have been the answers you wanted though.
		
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But she actually didn't. And i'm aware Jeremy didn't do it either in some cases, but Theresa was much worse. If you go back and watch again (or if you prefer, read some fairly neutral commentary), it is obvious she never actually gave an answer. And just so I'm clear, reading a set of prepared quotes/responses that are kind of linked to the question, do not count as an answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes She did, She answered all of them.  They may not have been the answers you wanted though.
		
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So tell me her answer on the '_will you walk away with No Deal'_ because all she said in response that she'd get a deal and you have to make clear you are willing to walk away.  Was that the same as Yes - No Deal.  It seemed like it but she didn't say it.  So I'm guessing that she won't as she knows that - in her own words - _'failure would be dire'_ and I can only work out that in her mind _No Deal_ is failure - but she can't explicitly state that until after the GE and she has a larger majority than she has now.

And - oh yes - the cap on Dementia Tax.  How can anyone worried about losing their house simply accept a consultation Green Paper as an answer.  The Cap could be Â£200,000!  And that could mean most needing extended home care would lose their home.  And how much will the cap cost in the context of their manifesto income/expenditure calculations?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2017)

Hard right Tory supporters seem to have gone into flat out denial mode now. 
Quite amusing after all the waffle they have been spouting.
Their arrogance tank is now running on empty.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So tell me her answer on the '_will you walk away with No Deal'_ because all she said in response that she'd get a deal and you have to make clear you are willing to walk away.  Was that the same as Yes - No Deal.  It seemed like it but she didn't say it.  So I'm guessing that she won't as she knows that - in her own words - _'failure would be dire'_ and I can only work out that in her mind _No Deal_ is failure - but she can't explicitly state that until after the GE and she has a larger majority than she has now.
		
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Well, after reading your post I've just listened to Paxman's interview again. Sounded very clear to me when she said you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal.... But like Paxman, you're focussing on, and wanting, "yes I'll walk away." She reiterated "No deal is better than a bad deal. And you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal."

Is that really too hard to understand?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Well, after reading your post I've just listened to Paxman's interview again. Sounded very clear to me when she said you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal.... But like Paxman, you're focussing on, and wanting, "yes I'll walk away." She reiterated "No deal is better than a bad deal. And you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal."

Is that really too hard to understand?
		
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I agree - but she wouldn't directly say _Yes - I will walk away with No Deal_.  And she would not even when pressed.  If it is so clear why did she not just say so.


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Well, after reading your post I've just listened to Paxman's interview again. Sounded very clear to me when she said you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal.... But like Paxman, you're focussing on, and wanting, "yes I'll walk away." She reiterated "No deal is better than a bad deal. And you have to be prepared to walk away from a bad deal."

Is that really too hard to understand?
		
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She very deliberately avoided saying she'd walk away if she couldn't get a good deal. she obviously did that for a reason - she knows she'll have to get some sort of deal no matter how bad. She'll get a rubbish deal and try to sell it to the country - as Cameron did.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			She very deliberately avoided saying she'd walk away if she couldn't get a good deal. she obviously did that for a reason - she knows she'll have to get some sort of deal no matter how bad. She'll get a rubbish deal and try to sell it to the country - as Cameron did.
		
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...and she has told us all that failure will be dire...so what is failure?  Clearly in her mind, and the advice she has received, is that failure is _No Deal_ so she cannot say she would walk away with No Deal.


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## ColchesterFC (May 30, 2017)

Wouldn't failure be a bad deal rather than no deal? Success would be a good deal. Anything less than that would be a degree of success. Failure would be to agree to a bad deal.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 30, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't failure be a bad deal rather than no deal? Success would be a good deal. Anything less than that would be a degree of success. Failure would be to agree to a bad deal.
		
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When you say a "bad deal", do you really think that the EU would be so hard in their negotiations they would offer terms *worse* than the WTO? Why would they do that, when clearly if they do, the UK would say "no you're ok, we'll have WTO". That would be a completely nonsensical negotiation stance. Which clearly makes what May says a nonsensical argument. No?


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## ColchesterFC (May 30, 2017)

You may be right. I don't know enough about WTO rules to know what impact it would have. I guess it comes down to how much the EU want for the "divorce" bill and what they want for access to the single market in terms of 
costs, freedom of movement etc . Then they'll need to weigh that up against walking away with no deal.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hard right Tory supporters seem to have gone into flat out denial mode now. 
Quite amusing after all the waffle they have been spouting.
Their arrogance tank is now running on empty.
		
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The good part is at least Tory voters don't hang as far to the right as Gengis Ghan and the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't failure be a bad deal rather than no deal? Success would be a good deal. Anything less than that would be a degree of success. Failure would be to agree to a bad deal.
		
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Do you have any idea what a 'no deal' scenario would do to NI, do you actually care?


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			When you say a "bad deal", do you really think that the EU would be so hard in their negotiations they would offer terms *worse* than the WTO? Why would they do that, when clearly if they do, the UK would say "no you're ok, we'll have WTO". That would be a completely nonsensical negotiation stance. Which clearly makes what May says a nonsensical argument. No?
		
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We have preferred status under WTO rules, and the EU can't offer anything less or risk an expensive court case they can't legally win.

France and Germany have already canvassed the non-contributors EU countries about revising down what they currently get. F and G have said they won't increase their contributions. 

They need our money, a deal, and we want access, a deal.

The good or bad is subjective. What May might say is a good/bad deal i might say is rubbish and you might say is good...why are we even debating the deal when it's subjective anyway?


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			We have preferred status under WTO rules, and the EU can't offer anything less or risk an expensive court case they can't legally win.

France and Germany have already canvassed the non-contributors EU countries about revising down what they currently get. F and G have said they won't increase their contributions. 

They need our money, a deal, and we want access, a deal.

The good or bad is subjective. What May might say is a good/bad deal i might say is rubbish and you might say is good...why are we even debating the deal when it's subjective anyway?
		
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Almost exactly my point, proving what a stupid comment it is that May keeps making.


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## Raesy92 (May 30, 2017)

I am yet to see May answer a question that has not been completely scripted. When a question she is not expecting comes up she just uses one of her scripted 'answers' to try her best to mask the fact she has not got a clue.

It is quite clear why she will not debate with anyone, it's because it is a clear weakness and she will be found out.


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## ColchesterFC (May 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have any idea what a 'no deal' scenario would do to NI, do you actually care?
		
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Nope, I've no idea. What would it do? Once you've explained that I'll be in a position to let you know whether I care or not.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, I've no idea. What would it do? Once you've explained that I'll be in a position to let you know whether I care or not.
		
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Don't be silly. He hasn't a clue what it means.


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## MarkE (May 30, 2017)

May has no need to answer anything, when her competitors are all such  a sad bunch. Just repeat the mantras and don't say too much objectionable. I'm not a dyed in the wool Tory or anything else, but vote each time on what I see as the most important issues at any given election. For me, this time it's Brexit and only May looks like she could deliver on the referendum, so that's good enough.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So tell me her answer on the '_will you walk away with No Deal'_ because all she said in response that she'd get a deal and you have to make clear you are willing to walk away.
		
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She made it crystal clear that No deal was better than a bad deal.  What is it exactly you don't understand about the principal of no deal.   If you asked me if  I am going to vote Labour and I replied that I would rather stick pins in my eyes would you understand whether I would vote for them


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have any idea what a 'no deal' scenario would do to NI, do you actually care?
		
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It would mean they would be leaving the EU.  What the hell do you think it would do?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't failure be a bad deal rather than no deal? Success would be a good deal. Anything less than that would be a degree of success. Failure would be to agree to a bad deal.
		
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But she isn't going to agree to a _Bad Deal_ - _Bad Deal _will mean _No Deal_.  So in May world there is no such thing as a _Bad Deal_ that would be dire for the country.  So what is the failure that will be dire if it is not _No Deal_.  That being the _No Deal_ that many Brexiteers seem to clamour for (though that may just be the lunatic fringe)


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2017)

I see SILH back to the insults.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It would mean they would be leaving the EU.  What the hell do you think it would do?
		
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OK - what happens to the border and cross-border trade between UK and Eire if there is _No Deal_

The truth is nobody has much of a clue about what _No Deal _means - which rather makes it tricky to know whether or not to accept whatever _Deal _is reached.  

It's a shambles and disgracefully we have a half a nation willing to gamble the futures of our children and grandchildren on having blue passports; less chance of having an EU27 neighbour, and increased fishing rights.  Oh yes - and _'taking back control'_ - whatever esoteric benefits that that might have.

And on fishing - WTO trade doesn't seem that attractive given we export more than half our fishing catch and the vast majority of the Scottish 'seafood' catch goes to Spain - and under WTO rules fish/seafood exports typically attract a 35-40% tariff.  Oh whoop-de-doo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I see SILH back to the insults.
		
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So which part of the lunatic fringe do you include yourself.  Because if you ain't in it - you can't be insulted, and in any case I am interested that you think that there is no 'lunatic fringe' on the Leave side,  you clearly haven't been paying that much attention.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which part of the lunatic fringe do you include yourself.  Because if you ain't in it - you can't be insulted, and in any case I am interested that you think that there is no 'lunatic fringe' on the Leave side,  you clearly haven't been paying that much attention.
		
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There's clearly lunatics on both sides. As I've said many, many times, you do the Remain argument no favours at all but you do go a long way to widen that divide you decry.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which part of the lunatic fringe do you include yourself.  Because if you ain't in it - you can't be insulted, and in any case I am interested that you think that there is no 'lunatic fringe' on the Leave side,  you clearly haven't been paying that much attention.
		
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There is no more a lunatic fringe in the leave campaign as there is in the remain campaign. Why do you continue to rant about leaving the EU and suggest that you have knowledge of what the future holds and how the negotiations will end up.

You really are a bitter bitter man.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which part of the lunatic fringe do you include yourself.  Because if you ain't in it - you can't be insulted, and in any case I am interested that you think that there is no 'lunatic fringe' on the Leave side,  you clearly haven't been paying that much attention.
		
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There certainly is a Lunatic Fringe on the remain side and you typify it.  You are incapable of a civilised debate and when posters respond to your rabid attacks you blame them for being Lunitics.   Take a very long look at yourself as you are rapidly starting to sound deranged.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - what happens to the border and cross-border trade between UK and Eire if there is _No Deal_

The truth is nobody has much of a clue about what _No Deal _means - which rather makes it tricky to know whether or not to accept whatever _Deal _is reached.  

It's a shambles and disgracefully we have a half a nation willing to gamble the futures of our children and grandchildren on having blue passports; less chance of having an EU27 neighbour, and increased fishing rights.  Oh yes - and _'taking back control'_ - whatever esoteric benefits that that might have.

And on fishing - WTO trade doesn't seem that attractive given we export more than half our fishing catch and the vast majority of the Scottish 'seafood' catch goes to Spain - and under WTO rules fish/seafood exports typically attract a 35-40% tariff.  Oh whoop-de-doo.
		
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The answer to cross border trade will be agreed by negotiation, just like the free trade agreement will. It is highly unlikely that there will be no deal and WTO (preferred status)will come about.  What you are missing with the fishery industry is that the EU are taking a very large amount of fish from British fishing territories, if we take back control of these waters then Spain Et Al will not be catching these fish and our industry will be able to fish more, this will mean we wont have to import it and will be free to sell to which ever market wants to buy.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I see SILH back to the insults.
		
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He's been saving it up.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to cross border trade will be agreed by negotiation, just like the free trade agreement will. It is highly unlikely that there will be no deal and WTO (preferred status)will come about.  What you are missing with the fishery industry is that the EU are taking a very large amount of fish from British fishing territories, if we take back control of these waters then Spain Et Al will not be catching these fish and our industry will be able to fish more, this will mean we wont have to import it and will be free to sell to which ever market wants to buy.
		
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Stop using the word negotiation, the man doesn't understand the meaning of it and you'll send him into a head spin.


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## Hacker Khan (May 31, 2017)

MarkE said:



*May has no need to answer anything,* when her competitors are all such  a sad bunch. Just repeat the mantras and don't say too much objectionable. I'm not a dyed in the wool Tory or anything else, but vote each time on what I see as the most important issues at any given election. For me, this time it's Brexit and only May looks like she could deliver on the referendum, so that's good enough.
		
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Well as she is trying to become the countries leader at one of the most important times in recent history it would be nice of her to answer the odd thing or two don't you think?  Say about public services, schools, the NHS, social services, that kind of thing that most people kind of use every day of their life?? No??  

OK Mrs May, we are your humble servants and will do whatever you think is best for us your majesty...


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## FairwayDodger (May 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			There certainly is a Lunatic Fringe on the remain side and you typify it.  You are incapable of a civilised debate and when posters respond to your rabid attacks you blame them for being Lunitics.   Take a very long look at yourself as you are rapidly starting to sound deranged.
		
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Seems to me that, when it comes to insults, SILH is more sinned against than sinner.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems to me that, when it comes to insults, SILH is more sinned against than sinner.
		
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I would second that.
I would suggest his detractors slowly read the actual words that he posts before the red mist rises.


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## User62651 (May 31, 2017)

Back on topic latest polls out showing May losing more ground to Labour, whether or not she's up to the job, she is not appearing to convince the general public of her arguments or that she is 'up to the job'. 

Yougov now suggesting 310 MPs for her party which is not even a majority. No guarantee she can even be PM in that situation if other parties gang up.

I cant believe this poll, just cant see it turning out like that, however pollsters saying they've ironed out kinks that gave duff predictions in past and this from a 50,000 poll.

Think sheer arrogance could cost her though, if she wins but with a smaller majority than she had when she called the election surely her position becomes untenable........Where exactly is Boris


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to cross border trade will be agreed by negotiation, just like the free trade agreement will. It is highly unlikely that there will be no deal and WTO (preferred status)will come about.  What you are missing with the fishery industry is that the EU are taking a very large amount of fish from British fishing territories, if we take back control of these waters then Spain Et Al will not be catching these fish and our industry will be able to fish more, this will mean we wont have to import it and will be free to sell to which ever market wants to buy.
		
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OK - all will be OK...


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Back on topic latest polls out showing May losing more ground to Labour, whether or not she's up to the job, she is not appearing to convince the general public of her arguments or that she is 'up to the job'. 

Yougov now suggesting 310 MPs for her party which is not even a majority. No guarantee she can even be PM in that situation if other parties gang up.

I cant believe this poll, just cant see it turning out like that, however pollsters saying they've ironed out kinks that gave duff predictions in past and this from a 50,000 poll.

Think sheer arrogance could cost her though, if she wins but with a smaller majority than she had when she called the election surely her position becomes untenable........Where exactly is Boris

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Although another poll which is 4 days old shows her still 12%ahead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well as she is trying to become the countries leader at one of the most important times in recent history it would be nice of her to answer the odd thing or two don't you think?  Say about public services, schools, the NHS, social services, that kind of thing that most people kind of use every day of their life?? No??  

OK Mrs May, we are your humble servants and will do whatever you think is best for us your majesty...
		
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You dare question The Supreme Leader?  I fear she is becoming more like the Pied Piper of Hamelin.  So grateful to her are Leavers for getting rid of the rats and ridding the place of the plague (the EU); that they fail to see the risk she poses as she pipes us all following meekly into a dark place (cave) - never to be seen again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems to me that, when it comes to insults, SILH is more sinned against than sinner.
		
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See - the thing is - dear Old Skier seems to have applied to some here my suggestion that there is a lunatic fringe to Brexiteers, when I did not make any such assertion or indeed implication.   Of course if some here actually see themselves as part of a lunatic fringe - well that's for them to make the call not me.  Indeed I have heard UKIP and Tory spokesmen and women describe as mad and stupid some callers to LBC who have expressed rather extreme Brexit-related views.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See - the thing is - dear Old Skier seems to have applied to some here my suggestion that there is a lunatic fringe to Brexiteers, when I did not make any such assertion or indeed implication.   Of course if some here actually see themselves as part of a lunatic fringe - well that's for them to make the call not me.  Indeed I have heard UKIP and Tory spokesmen and women describe as mad and stupid some callers to LBC who have expressed rather extreme Brexit-related views.
		
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You've completely lost it. You cannot even remember what you publish anymore. I think it's time you got on bended knee and asked your supreme leader for guidance.


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## USER1999 (May 31, 2017)

I think labours pledge to abolish university tuition fees is a clever move to buy votes. Any one with a teenage kid could save 50k with this. Why vote for anything else? 50k is a lot of cash.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2017)

I agree Murph. They are offering some positive options, even if you question how they can pay for it. The Conservatives are offering more of the same and simply bitching about Corbyn personally. Slightly ironic that TM made a famous speech about the Conservatives being the nasty party when that is exactly how they are behaving towards JC. Easy to see why Labour are tempting people across.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

I see Corbyn has decided to take part in this evenings TV debate - as May had declined so had he.  And Tory and Labour parties had senior party representatives.  But now Corbyn has stated that the electorate have a right to see those putting themselves forward for PM in debate - and so he has changed his plans and is going to be there.  Amber Rudd is representing the Tories - will May decide to take part?


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## FairwayDodger (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see Corbyn has decided to take part in this evenings TV debate - as May had declined so had he.  And Tory and Labour parties had senior party representatives.  But now Corbyn has stated that the electorate have a right to see those putting themselves forward for PM in debate - and so he has changed his plans and is going to be there.  Amber Rudd is representing the Tories - will May decide to take part?
		
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She has already considered how bad not taking part seems against how poorly she would perform in such a debate and found herself wanting. 

Pretty savvy move from JC.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			She has already considered how bad not taking part seems against how poorly she would perform in such a debate and found herself wanting. 

Pretty savvy move from JC.
		
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Could be a deal breaker in my opinion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 31, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Could be a deal breaker in my opinion.
		
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Even if she turns up, I still think it'll look bad, almost another U-turn.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Amber Rudd will get heavy pelters off Corbyn and the others for not being May.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See - the thing is - dear Old Skier seems to have applied to some here my suggestion that there is a lunatic fringe to Brexiteers, when I did not make any such assertion or indeed implication.   Of course if some here actually see themselves as part of a lunatic fringe - well that's for them to make the call not me.  Indeed I have heard UKIP and Tory spokesmen and women describe as mad and stupid some callers to LBC who have expressed rather extreme Brexit-related views.
		
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They do not read what you print.
They pick out about four words from a post, make up their own [mis]interpretation and them start typing whilst in a furious rage. 
It's the UKIP/Leave way. Tends to get pretty boring when they keep repeating the same old guff.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Amber Rudd will get heavy pelters off Corbyn and the others for not being May.
		
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I'd be commenting on this every time I spoke if I were one of the others. Really drive it home that she was either frightened to appear or is contemptuous of the electorate. Amber Rudd should get mullered tonight if the others on the panel are up to much. TM owes her big time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd be commenting on this every time I spoke if I were one of the others. Really drive it home that she was either frightened to appear or is contemptuous of the electorate. Amber Rudd should get mullered tonight if the others on the panel are up to much. TM owes her big time.
		
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Indeed.  Well to every answer Rudd gives I'd simply respond _'is that Theresa May's position - are you sure it hasn't changed today?'_


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2017)

I think Mayhem will show up at the last minute, you must remember that she is strong and stable.


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## User62651 (May 31, 2017)

Very stressful environment for May I'd think having 5 or 6 political opponents having a pop on live tv, way outside her comfort zone. This is not like the Commons where its all rehearsed beforehand. Many of the participants have done quite a few of these debates before so are well practiced, expect May would come across badly as the incumbent with everything to lose and not much to gain. However not turning up will do nothing for her campaign which has already been panned by all sides as poor. Those voting Tory no matter what wont care but for a lot of undecideds it comes across as aloof and they wont buy the excuse line 'I'm out on doorsteps talking to real people'.
Be interesting to see how Rudd does, suspect a few Tories are eyeing up the top job given May's weakness and election performance to date. Wonder if she (Rudd) offered or was pushed?

Meanwhile Gove will be readying in a kitchen somewhere........ sharpening the knives!


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## FairwayDodger (May 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Mayhem will show up at the last minute, you must remember that she is strong and stable.
		
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She might change her mind but then would probably change it again... the lady is not for turning up!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Mayhem will show up at the last minute, you must remember that she is strong and stable.
		
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Well it would be another mega u-turn (have we found Mega May) - as she has restated she's a _No Show_ - claiming she prefers to get out and meet the people.  What people would that be Dear Leader?  The few that your minders let near you in the locations chosen by your minders?

And as far as S&S - don't forget that 'spinning tops' are stable in one place for as long as they keep spinning - but once they stop spinning they fall over, roll about the place, and are then useless.


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## pokerjoke (May 31, 2017)

To be honest I'm sick to death of the election as you just cant get an honest answer from most MPs or TM.

How can she wait to after the vote before she gives out some of her policies and how much it will all cost.

I'm sure other parties do the same but the lies and deceit is just driving me mad.


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## Hacker Khan (May 31, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest I'm sick to death of the election as you just cant get an honest answer from most MPs or TM.

*How can she wait to after the vote before she gives out some of her policies and how much it will all cost.

I'm sure other parties do the same but the lies and deceit is just driving me mad*.
		
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I think she does it as she thinks she can get away with it, says a lot about her attitude and respect she has for the voting public if you ask me. I say make your feelings known at the ballot box


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## JohnnyDee (May 31, 2017)

Strong and stable, eh? 

That's the stuff to feed the Daily Mail reading wazzocks.

Oh, hang on - even the Tories have twigged they've fooled nobody trying to peddle this utter drivel and have finally stuck a sock in it.

Weak and Wobbly or Timid and Terrified might be the new mantras perhaps? As May swerves every event that's not sanctioned by Central Office.

Still If she can manage to hide away from scrutiny for just another week then she might just get away with it.


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Strong and stable, eh? 

That's the stuff to feed the Daily Mail reading wazzocks.

Oh, hang on - even the Tories have twigged they've fooled nobody trying to peddle this utter drivel and have finally stuck a sock in it.

Weak and Wobbly or Timid and Terrified might be the new mantras perhaps?

Still If May can manage to hide away from scrutiny for just another week then she might just get away with it.
		
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There a a number of people like you on this Forum that continue to rubbish your fellow man by suggesting if they read a certain news paper they are complete idiots.   It's pathetic, childish, arrogant and you should take a long look at yourselves.


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## JohnnyDee (May 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			There a a number of people like you on this Forum that continue to rubbish your fellow man by suggesting if they read a certain news paper they are complete idiots.   It's pathetic, childish, arrogant and you should take a long look at yourselves.
		
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Ah yes, of course you're entirely right. What on earth was I thinking about posting such silly nonsense?

Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. :thup:


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Ah yes, of course you're entirely right. What on earth was I thinking about posting such silly nonsense?

Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. :thup:
		
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No Problem. Any time you start ranting I will let you know, hopefully long term you will be able to control it better. :thup:


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## JohnnyDee (May 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No Problem. Any time you start ranting I will let you know, hopefully long term you will be able to control it better. :thup:
		
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Cheers, mate!  :thup:


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They do not read what you print.
They pick out about four words from a post, make up their own [mis]interpretation and them start typing whilst in a furious rage. 
It's the UKIP/Leave way. Tends to get pretty boring when they keep repeating the same old guff.
		
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Take more than a sock puppet account and the internet to get me into anything like a mere wibble as furious rages passed me by years ago, more like a Scots thing than anything the calm Welsh from the country of Wales  would get involved in.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Mayhem will show up at the last minute, you must remember that she is strong and stable.
		
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Is see you once again publish complete rubbish. Your completely out of touch with reality.


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2017)

I'm not sure that Angus Robertson can get away with making digs about May not being there when he's there instead of Nicola Sturgeon.

I'm not surprised that our SNP supporters on here that have been criticising May for not taking part in the debate haven't been quite so vocal about Sturgeon not being there.

Also not surprised at those congratulating Corbyn on changing his mind and taking part and at the same time saying that if May had done the same it would have been another U turn from her. 

Interesting to see such which forummers are happy to publicly display their double standards.


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## FairwayDodger (May 31, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure that Angus Robertson can get away with making digs about May not being there when he's there instead of Nicola Sturgeon.

I'm not surprised that our SNP supporters on here that have been criticising May for not taking part in the debate haven't been quite so vocal about Sturgeon not being there.

Also not surprised at those congratulating Corbyn on changing his mind and taking part and at the same time saying that if May had done the same it would have been another U turn from her. 

Interesting to see such which forummers are happy to publicly display their double standards.
		
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I'm reluctant to ever give the snp any credit but it seems perfectly logical to have Angus Robertson, their Westminster leader, in the debate rather than sturgeon, who isn't standing for election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm reluctant to ever give the snp any credit but it seems perfectly logical to have Angus Robertson, their Westminster leader, in the debate rather than sturgeon, who isn't standing for election.
		
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Quite - and rather obvious - if you stop and think about it for a moment or two.


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## FairwayDodger (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - and rather obvious - if you stop and think about it for a moment or two.
		
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Not the forum's strong suit really!


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

Allthough the debate was a shambles and most on here have previously dismissed them I see the double standards are kicking in. Why would you not want all leaders there if that's your thing.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - and rather obvious - if you stop and think about it for a moment or two.
		
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Absolute tosh, the wee woman knows she is the greatest turn off for the British public. It was a pure personality issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Absolute tosh, the wee woman knows she is the greatest turn off for the British public. It was a pure personality issue.
		
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She has got nothing to do with Westminster - why on earth would she be there?  If she *had* been there you'd have been complaining that she had no right to be there.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She has got nothing to do with a Westminster election - why on earth would she be there?  If she *had* been there you'd have been complaining that she had no right to be there.
		
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Your now telling me what I would have said. I know you have a poor understanding of certain words and phrases and put your own interpretation on them but one thing I would prefer you to refrain from is telling me what I might or might not say or post.


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not the forum's strong suit really! 

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And as a member complicit by conspiracy


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## Hacker Khan (May 31, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure that Angus Robertson can get away with making digs about May not being there when he's there instead of Nicola Sturgeon.

I'm not surprised that our SNP supporters on here that have been criticising May for not taking part in the debate haven't been quite so vocal about Sturgeon not being there.

Also not surprised at those congratulating Corbyn on changing his mind and taking part and at the same time saying that if May had done the same it would have been another U turn from her. 

Interesting to see such which forummers are happy to publicly display their double standards.
		
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Personally I'd of liked to have seen her turn up. As I would liked to have heard what she has to say. 

Couldn't give a rats ass if people would have called it a u turn or not. As that is not the important point really, what the potential leader of this country has to say is more important to me rather than parties bickering over u turns. Turn up, defend and debate you manifesto against fellow politicians.

But alas we were not treated to her appearance.


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She has got nothing to do with Westminster - why on earth would she be there?  If she *had* been there you'd have been complaining that she had no right to be there.
		
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Perhaps with it being a "leader's debate" and with her being leader of the SNP? I've got no problem with her not being there, in the same way I have no problem with May not being there, but for the SNP representative to have a dig about the Conservative leader not being there while he was there instead of his own leader is blatantly double standards.


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Personally I'd of liked to have seen her turn up. As I would liked to have heard what she has to say. 

Couldn't give a rats ass if people would have called it a u turn or not. As that is not the important point really, what the potential leader of this country has to say is more important to me rather than parties bickering over u turns. Turn up, defend and debate you manifesto against fellow politicians.

But alas we were not treated to her appearance.
		
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I'm not a fan of the debates and I really don't care about her not being there - we seem to be becoming more Americanised with our politics, style over substance, and the debates are just one symptom of that. And equally I really don't care about these debates, which have been very poorly moderated and less about debating and more a bun fight with people shouting over each other. Really wish that politicians of all parties would shut up and allow others to answer the questions they've been asked and then respond to that rather than talking over each other and trying to score cheap points.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Perhaps with it being a "leader's debate" and with her being leader of the SNP? I've got no problem with her not being there, in the same way I have no problem with May not being there, but for the SNP representative to have a dig about the Conservative leader not being there while he was there instead of his own leader is blatantly double standards.
		
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It is a Westminster election and Angus is SNP Leader in the Westminster Parliament makes total sense to anyone with even a fleeting knowledge of UK/Scottish politics.

May on the other hand is just scared, not something you would ever consider calling Nicola Sturgeon.:lol:


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## Hobbit (May 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a Westminster election and Angus is SNP Leader in the Westminster Parliament makes total sense to anyone with even a fleeting knowledge of UK/Scottish politics.

May on the other hand is just scared, not something you would ever consider calling Nicola Sturgeon.:lol:
		
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So dear old Angus is a leader, taking his lines from another leader.... aye right. Now that really makes sense. No wonder Scottish politics is a mess. Or is Sturgeon an equal to Nuttall, not a real MP?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not a fan of the debates and I really don't care about her not being there - we seem to be becoming more Americanised with our politics, style over substance, and the debates are just one symptom of that. And equally I really don't care about these debates, which have been very poorly moderated and less about debating and more a bun fight with people shouting over each other. Really wish that politicians of all parties would shut up and allow others to answer the questions they've been asked and then respond to that rather than talking over each other and trying to score cheap points.
		
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I see Tmay, when asked why she was not defending her policies at the debate, criticized Corbyn for spending to much time on TV and saying he should be concentrating on Brexit instead.

This from the PM who called an election when she said she wouldn't and did not need to, which had meant she has had to appear on TV a lot instead of focussing on Brexit.....


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## User62651 (Jun 1, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Tmay, when asked why she was not defending her policies at the debate, criticized Corbyn for spending to much time on TV and saying he should be concentrating on Brexit instead.

This from the PM who called an election when she said she wouldn't and did not need to, which had meant she has had to appear on TV a lot instead of focussing on Brexit.....
		
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I know, you couldn't make it up with this clown of a PM. Well done Amber Rudd though, stood in and took the flak, fought hard and this despite losing her father only a couple of days before - respect.

As for raucous point-scoring tone and style of the tv debates it's little different to PMs questions in the Commons so hardly an excuse for TM not to turn up.


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## Old Skier (Jun 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a Westminster election and Angus is SNP Leader in the Westminster Parliament makes total sense to anyone with even a fleeting knowledge of UK/Scottish politics.

May on the other hand is just scared, not something you would ever consider calling Nicola Sturgeon.:lol:
		
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I see your knowledge of politics is on par with your lack of knowledge of geography and history. I understand that the Scottish education system is in collapse but I thought that was a recent problem.

Its not a Westminster election, it's an election for seats in Parliament and for the geography challenged that just happens to be in Westminster.

It was a leaders debate (more like a shout out in the end), I understood that the SNP Leader was a woman so it's a fail just like it turned out to be a fail for the Tory Party. The only difference being May leads a major party as opposed to a small one so the damage could be greater. That will become more obvious in a weeks time when we see if the population like rant TV.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 1, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Tmay, when asked why she was not defending her policies at the debate, criticized Corbyn for spending to much time on TV and saying he should be concentrating on Brexit instead.

This from the PM who called an election when she said she wouldn't and did not need to, which had meant she has had to appear on TV a lot instead of focussing on Brexit.....
		
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Completely agree with this. If she needed to concentrate on Brexit then she shouldn't have called the election. She's made herself look ridiculous with that one.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I see your knowledge of politics is on par with your lack of knowledge of geography and history. I understand that the Scottish education system is in collapse but I thought that was a recent problem.

Its not a Westminster election, it's an election for seats in Parliament and for the geography challenged that just happens to be in Westminster.

It was a leaders debate (more like a shout out in the end), I understood that the SNP Leader was a woman so it's a fail just like it turned out to be a fail for the Tory Party. The only difference being May leads a major party as opposed to a small one so the damage could be greater. That will become more obvious in a weeks time when *we see if the population* *like rant TV*.
		
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Or like their potential leaders to have the guts to defend their manifesto with fellow potential leaders.  Tomaarto, tomayto...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I know, you couldn't make it up with this clown of a PM. *Well done Amber Rudd though, stood in and took the flak, fought hard and this despite losing her father only a couple of days before - respect.*

As for raucous point-scoring tone and style of the tv debates it's little different to PMs questions in the Commons so hardly an excuse for TM not to turn up.
		
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I do find that a bit weird. I know she wanted to do it and it is up to her, but surely everyone would have understood if she would have dropped out as you need time to grieve and be with your family at those times.  

It's like some macho culture where you can't seem to be weak and to be honest kind of plays into the stereotype of the tories being kind of not the most caring and compassionate of people. How difficult would have it have been for TMay to say, your father has died but 48 hours ago, this is a leaders debate, I am the leader so I will step up to the plate. Strong leadership?????


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## adam6177 (Jun 1, 2017)

She's a gutless liar who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw her..... Corbyn is a car crash waiting to happen.

I cannot believe we'll end up with either of these idiots running the country.

As a wise man once said, we're all doomed!


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## Old Skier (Jun 1, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			She's a gutless liar who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw her..... Corbyn is a car crash waiting to happen.

I cannot believe we'll end up with either of these idiots running the country.

As a wise man once said, we're all doomed!
		
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They always say what happens in the states soon transfers across to Europe.  Very few in politics are there for anything but themselves.  Started in the 90's IMHO.  There's not a decent party leader amongst any of them.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

Stolen from Twitter but the only person TMay has debated with on TV is her husband. Strong and stable...


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## Hobbit (Jun 1, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			She's a gutless liar who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw her..... Corbyn is a car crash waiting to happen.

I cannot believe we'll end up with either of these idiots running the country.

As a wise man once said, we're all doomed!
		
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Old Skier said:



			They always say what happens in the states soon transfers across to Europe.  Very few in politics are there for anything but themselves.  Started in the 90's IMHO.  There's not a decent party leader amongst any of them.
		
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Ahint of Clinton 'v' Trump? Neither looking good enough...


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## Crazyface (Jun 1, 2017)

12 months ago we had a vote about something...I forget what, where one side thought they'd win and said nowt and the other side fought hard and gave the people some figures to think about. Now what happened there? Notice anything? TM had better wake up and smell the smelly stuff or I can see her dream being just that.

Weren't they all rubbish last night?


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## Crazyface (Jun 1, 2017)

Especially that woman in red. Jesus H Christ get back in the kitchen where you belong.


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## drdel (Jun 1, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			12 months ago we had a vote about something...I forget what, where one side thought they'd win and said nowt and the other side fought hard and gave the people some figures to think about. Now what happened there? Notice anything? TM had better wake up and smell the smelly stuff or I can see her dream being just that.

*Weren't they all rubbish last night*?
		
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Yup politics at its worse. These TV debates seem to be the lowest form of broadcast going. Presenters concentrate on their own persona and appearing intellectually superior and the candidates just want to maximise their camera time. Content is next to B all.

Its more than a bit sad that the UK is led by such a moronic selection of the population.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			Especially that woman in red. Jesus H Christ get back in the kitchen where you belong.
		
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And hello to the Right Honourable Member (and I use that word with caution) for the 1940s...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

drdel said:



			Yup politics at its worse. These TV debates seem to be the lowest form of broadcast going. Presenters concentrate on their own persona and appearing intellectually superior and the candidates just want to maximise their camera time. Content is next to B all.

*Its more than a bit sad that the UK is led by such a moronic selection of the population*.
		
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Sorry, I have lost track a bit with all the nuanced arguments on here being made by the great and good of this forum.  Are you referring to Tory MPs, party leaders, TV presenters or those that voted for brexit?


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## drdel (Jun 1, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry, I have lost track a bit with all the nuanced arguments on here being made by the great and good of this forum.  Are you referring to Tory MPs, party leaders, TV presenters or those that voted for brexit?
		
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Politicians!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I know, you couldn't make it up with this clown of a PM. Well done Amber Rudd though, stood in and took the flak, fought hard and this despite losing her father only a couple of days before - respect.

As for raucous point-scoring tone and style of the tv debates it's little different to PMs questions in the Commons so hardly an excuse for TM not to turn up.
		
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I thought AR she did rather well - as I thought she did during the Referendum debate.  But that she was put into the Lion's Den by TM - given she had only two days before lost her dad - now that smacks of a lack of compassion to me - despite the assurances AR would have given.   Was there nobody else in her cabinet of giants that TM felt could be her surrogate, not even our Foreign Secretary or Chancellor of the Exchequer?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I see your knowledge of politics is on par with your lack of knowledge of geography and history. I understand that the Scottish education system is in collapse but I thought that was a recent problem.

Its not a Westminster election, it's an election for seats in Parliament and for the geography challenged that just happens to be in Westminster.

It was a leaders debate (more like a shout out in the end), I understood that the SNP Leader was a woman so it's a fail just like it turned out to be a fail for the Tory Party. The only difference being May leads a major party as opposed to a small one so the damage could be greater. That will become more obvious in a weeks time when we see if the population like rant TV.
		
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I think you might be overlooking the fact that for many, if not most, Scots it is what happens in Holyrood that in general matters more to their lives than what happens in Westminster.  The GE outcome for the SNP will be driven by their performance in Holyrood rather than Westminster - where - by all accounts - Angus Robertson has been a very effective leader.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			She's a gutless liar who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw her..... Corbyn is a car crash waiting to happen.

I cannot believe we'll end up with either of these idiots running the country.

As a wise man once said, we're all doomed!
		
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Well...many in the USA felt that they had a similar choice - and in the end they went for the anti-establishment figure.  And  to be honest, and despite my misgivings over Corbyn, I actually can't see Corbyn and his front bench making a bigger mess of things than Bragger and his.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stolen from Twitter but the only person TMay has debated with on TV is her husband. Strong and stable...
		
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Isn't that why men and women get together or married?  Because if we didn't we'd have to argue with strangers


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

Anyway - on the Brexit negotiations, is it not the case that all the prep and planning is being done by the Civil Servants?  A change in focus or priorities will simply be managed by the Civil Servants.  

In any case - the initial negotiations will be on what we pay to leave - and in many ways that is surely going to be independent of whether it is Corbyn or May leading things.

The differences we be on the negotiations for the re-engagement with the EU.  And Civil Servants will have time during the 'leave payment' negotiations to re-focus and get on top of that - and they will.


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## drdel (Jun 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway - on the Brexit negotiations, is it not the case that all the prep and planning is being done by the Civil Servants?  A change in focus or priorities will simply be managed by the Civil Servants.  

In any case - the initial negotiations will be on what we pay to leave - and in many ways that is surely going to be independent of whether it is Corbyn or May leading things.

The differences we be on the negotiations for the re-engagement with the EU.  And Civil Servants will have time during the 'leave payment' negotiations to re-focus and get on top of that - and they will.
		
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Goodness I might even agree with you on this point.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2017)

Is it me or have 3 threads kind of merged into one with the same points being made in each thread?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it me or have 3 threads kind of merged into one with the same points being made in each thread?
		
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yes, yes, yes

Maybe time for this one to re-focus on the characteristics and capabilities of _The Supreme Leader_ - or given recent events should that be _The Chicken Supreme_


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes, yes, yes

Maybe time for this one to re-focus on the characteristics and capabilities of _The Supreme Leader_ - or given recent events should that be _The Chicken Supreme_

Click to expand...

Pathetic, if you cant say anything worthwhile why bother, we've heard all that so many times from you


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## jp5 (Jun 1, 2017)

I see the PM has ducked the women's hour interview tomorrow on the BBC.

Imagine calling an election and then refusing to debate your policies!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2017)

jp5 said:



			I see the PM has ducked the women's hour interview tomorrow on the BBC.

Imagine calling an election and then refusing to debate your policies!
		
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Woman's Hour, crikey!


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## USER1999 (Jun 1, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Woman's Hour, crikey!
		
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Turninv down the big one then. Next up she will be shunning the beano.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 1, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Turninv down the big one then. Next up she will be shunning the beano.
		
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JC did the funny "debate" thing with TM and women's hour the same day, or the next day I don't remember exactly, and women's hour had a bigger audience.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes, yes, yes

Maybe time for this one to re-focus on the characteristics and capabilities of _The Supreme Leader_ - or given recent events should that be _The Chicken Supreme_

Click to expand...

Naw.......... 'The Queen of the U Turn' is more suitable.
 I quite like chicken supreme, one of my mothers signature dishes along with spam fritters and fidget pie.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw.......... 'The Queen of the U Turn' is more suitable.
 I quite like chicken supreme, one of my mothers signature dishes along with spam fritters and fidget pie.
		
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I've really gone off fish!


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## Old Skier (Jun 1, 2017)

jp5 said:



			I see the PM has ducked the women's hour interview tomorrow on the BBC.

Imagine calling an election and then refusing to debate your policies!
		
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And the Scottish Leader turned down the opportunity to go on the Jeremy Vine show, seems like those two really do like ducking the media.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2017)

Latest News from Scotland.

Theresa May to be sanctioned for failing to turn up for two job interviews in 48 hours.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

It appears the SNP Leaders not up for it either, turning down opportunities to appear on the tele and radio and her personal ratings dropping like a stone.  Perhaps she should go to the job interviews if there are jobs going.


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## User62651 (Jun 2, 2017)

Thread is about Theresa May, she called this General Election early for her own benefit, feeble attempt at deflection to Sturgeon on lack of appearances is weak. Seems May started out quite confidently and thought she could campaign alone but it unravelled on her somewhat, that unravelling has forced a rethink on public engagement and it would seem clear her advisors are making it less about her and instead just going, true to form, project fear on Corbyn and to a lesser extent those you could coaliton themselves with Labour. 
Where have all the cabinet ministers been this campaign? - have seen a little of Fallon, Davis and Rudd but very little/none of Johnson, Hammond, Greening, Truss, Hunt, Green, Grayling, Leadsom, Mundell, Patel and others.
I think there is disassociation with May from her own team in case things go badly next week, no-one looking to stick their head out over the parapet at this stage, each looking after themselves.
May has been found out. Not PM material. 
Not saying Corbyn is either.


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## IanM (Jun 2, 2017)

Bit like the US election.

Both main candidates are poor.   That's what you get with career politics


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Thread is about Theresa May, she called this General Election early for her own benefit, feeble attempt at deflection to Sturgeon on lack of appearances is weak. Seems May started out quite confidently and thought she could campaign alone but it unravelled on her somewhat, that unravelling has forced a rethink on public engagement and it would seem clear her advisors are making it less about her and instead just going, true to form, project fear on Corbyn and to a lesser extent those you could coaliton themselves with Labour. 
Where have all the cabinet ministers been this campaign? - have seen a little of Fallon, Davis and Rudd but very little/none of Johnson, Hammond, Greening, Truss, Hunt, Green, Grayling, Leadsom, Mundell, Patel and others.
I think there is disassociation with May from her own team in case things go badly next week, no-one looking to stick their head out over the parapet at this stage, each looking after themselves.
May has been found out. Not PM material. 
Not saying Corbyn is either.
		
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Not deflecting at all as I have made the point that I think both are looking shaky in other posts.  Jut not sure why someone fawns over its leader but continually has a go at another when they both have the same faults. But that's a Nat for you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

Aye, whatever happened to Team May?

Morphed into Team Mayhem perhaps.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Where have all the cabinet ministers been this campaign? - have seen a little of Fallon, Davis and Rudd but very little/none of Johnson, Hammond, Greening, Truss, Hunt, Green, Grayling, Leadsom, Mundell, Patel and others.
I think there is disassociation with May from her own team in case things go badly next week, no-one looking to stick their head out over the parapet at this stage, each looking after themselves.
		
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A bit like May in the EU referendum really.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

IanM said:



			Bit like the US election.

Both main candidates are poor.   That's what you get with career politics
		
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You could argue that Corbyn is many things but not really a career politician. I'd argue he is actually the opposite, a person who has stuck to his values and principles over the years and has not compromised them to get into power. Whether people agree with those values is another thing, but bit unfair to call him one IMHO.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Thread is about Theresa May, she called this General Election early for her own benefit, feeble attempt at deflection to Sturgeon on lack of appearances is weak. Seems May started out quite confidently and thought she could campaign alone but it unravelled on her somewhat, that unravelling has forced a rethink on public engagement and it would seem clear her advisors are making it less about her and instead just going, true to form, project fear on Corbyn and to a lesser extent those you could coaliton themselves with Labour. 
Where have all the cabinet ministers been this campaign? - have seen a little of Fallon, Davis and Rudd but very little/none of Johnson, Hammond, Greening, Truss, Hunt, Green, Grayling, Leadsom, Mundell, Patel and others.
I think there is disassociation with May from her own team in case things go badly next week, no-one looking to stick their head out over the parapet at this stage, each looking after themselves.
May has been found out. Not PM material. 
Not saying Corbyn is either.
		
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I just think that the tories realised that those other people mentioned do not play that well with the electorate.  So as you say they decided to lead with TMay and her unique brand of debate and public engagement. Remember at the start of the process TMay had quite a big personal approval rating.  But now that seems to have taken a bit of a battering with all the failures to debate anything.  But not sure if wheeling out say Leadsom, Hammond or Bojo will energise anyone and convert any undecideds to the tory cause.


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## patricks148 (Jun 2, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			It appears the SNP Leaders not up for it either, turning down opportunities to appear on the tele and radio and her personal ratings dropping like a stone.  Perhaps she should go to the job interviews if there are jobs going.
		
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She isn't running for PM though is she?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2017)

BoJo is back...

Sorry - our esteemed and respected near and far Foreign Secretary is back on our screens adding intelligent clout to the debate as he waves an ice cream about - erm...


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## drdel (Jun 2, 2017)

My father drummed into me that a good indication of a coward was a person who would not say, to a persons face, things they were only brave enough to say behind their backs or out of earshot! 

I just wonder how many of the keyboard warriors fail this test.

After almost 600 posts the Theresa May (and many others) have been the focus of rude name calling rather than a distillation of her capacity as PM.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

drdel said:



*My father drummed into me that a good indication of a coward was a person who would not say, to a persons face, things they were only brave enough to say behind their backs or out of earshot! *

I just wonder how many of the keyboard warriors fail this test.

After almost 600 posts the Theresa May (and many others) have been the focus of rude name calling rather than a distillation of her capacity as PM.
		
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Oh the irony when talking about Mrs '_No I won't appear on that and have a face to face debate with Corbyn but will instruct my friends in the press to say nasty things about him_' May....

As for her capacity as a PM then aloof, weirdly mechanical, just reads of a pre-prepared script instead of engaging with people/interviewers, strange dogmatic views in areas such as education, opportunistic in calling the election despite saying she would not.


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## drdel (Jun 2, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oh the irony when talking about Mrs '_No I won't appear on that and have a face to face debate with Corbyn but will instruct my friends in the press to say nasty things about him_' May....
		
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I assume you're basing you comment on facts and have proof she 'instructed' the friendly press.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

drdel said:



			I assume you're basing you comment on facts and have proof she 'instructed' the friendly press.
		
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Slack 

I am sure she did not personally ring round all the editors, but I am also sure it is not a coincidence that all the right wing papers follow the same narrative today.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

If the Torys do badly in the election and I think it is fair to say that it isn't going to be the walkover that Tory HQ predicted. then I wouldn't be at all surprised to see TM resign, to be replaced by Amber Rudd.

TM for me is damaged now, she started well, but got greedy and this campaign has shown her limitations. 
A woeful manifesto, full of more of the same cuts etc, whereas people are fed up of this, they need to be cut a bit of slack. 
This is where Clever Corbyn has sneaked in with his money tree manifesto, which he will never be able to afford. but even if he can only do 1/4 of it, it will make people feel better off, if only for a time.

Im voting for the "Bring A Bottle " Party


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Slack 

I am sure she did not personally ring round all the editors, but I am also sure it is not a coincidence that all the right wing papers follow the same narrative today.
		
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Only you and a couple of others on here seem to soak up the right wing press.


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## jp5 (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This is where Clever Corbyn has sneaked in with his money tree manifesto, which he will never be able to afford.
		
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Amusing to see the "money tree" line when the only party with the uncosted money tree manifesto is indeed the Tories!

To be fair they did cost one policy - 6.7p per breakfast for schoolkids. How many cornflakes does 6.7p get you? :lol:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Amusing to see the "money tree" line when the only party with the uncosted money tree manifesto is indeed the Tories!

To be fair they did cost one policy - 6.7p per breakfast for schoolkids. How many cornflakes does 6.7p get you? :lol:
		
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So tell me what body (other than the labour party)  has accepted his policies as affordable.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Amusing to see the "money tree" line when the only party with the uncosted money tree manifesto is indeed the Tories!

To be fair they did cost one policy - 6.7p per breakfast for schoolkids. How many cornflakes does 6.7p get you? :lol:
		
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You are forgetting the milk & sugar  


I thought I was giving a reasonably fair assessment of the current state of play, 
do you have any idea what a huge hike in Corporation tax will do to business growth, R & D and the attractiveness of basing your business in the UK post Brexit when CT rates in Ireland are 12.5%.

It is going to impact on jobs which will decrease tax revenues and increase benefits etc
Corbyn might get his money in year 1, but years 2,3 and 4 are going to be a real struggle, the deficit which has been coming down, will increase again and after 5 years you will have to call in The Torys to sort it all out again.

I have crystal balls


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Corbyn might get his money in year 1, but years 2,3 and 4 are going to be a real struggle, the deficit which has been coming down, will increase again and after 5 years you will have to call in The Torys to sort it all out again.

I have crystal balls
		
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And you know the normal political cycle.


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## chrisd (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You are forgetting the milk & sugar  


I thought I was giving a reasonably fair assessment of the current state of play, 
do you have any idea what a huge hike in Corporation tax will do to business growth, R & D and the attractiveness of basing your business in the UK post Brexit when CT rates in Ireland are 12.5%.

It is going to impact on jobs which will decrease tax revenues and increase benefits etc
Corbyn might get his money in year 1, but years 2,3 and 4 are going to be a real struggle, the deficit which has been coming down, will increase again and after 5 years you will have to call in The Torys to sort it all out again.

I have crystal balls
		
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You might be a Mod but that doesn't give you the right to spout the truth amongt the garbage that these political threads are


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You might be a Mod but that doesn't give you the right to spout the truth amongt the garbage that these political threads are
		
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Aww Chris, Thats the nicest thing you ever said to me  

Just saying it hows I sees it :thup:


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2017)

And the figures show that when corporation tax is reduced the total tax take from it increases.

2010/11 - Corporation tax at 28% - total tax paid Â£43 billion.
2016/17 - Corporation tax at 19% - total tax paid Â£56 billion.

So Corbyn's plans to raise corporation tax might end up with much less being paid and that would put a rather large hole in his budget plans.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			And the figures show that when corporation tax is reduced the total tax take from it increases.

2010/11 - Corporation tax at 28% - total tax paid Â£43 billion.
2016/17 - Corporation tax at 19% - total tax paid Â£56 billion.

So Corbyn's plans to raise corporation tax might end up with much less being paid and that would put a rather large hole in his budget plans.
		
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To be totally fair the 2010/11 figures were bang in the middle of the recession, so not comparable with the 16/17 figures


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To be totally fair the 2010/11 figures were bang in the middle of the recession, so not comparable with the 16/17 figures
		
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Can you stop putting realism on spin please


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To be totally fair the 2010/11 figures were bang in the middle of the recession, so not comparable with the 16/17 figures
		
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Fair enough. How about 2008/2009 when the total was Â£46.4 billion. Or 2007/08 when it was around Â£44 billion. 

And not forgetting that due to the drop in the oil price the North Sea companies, who during that period had overtaken the financial sector for total contributions, have not been contributing as much recently and yet still the total revenue has increased.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Fair enough. How about 2008/2009 when the total was Â£46.4 billion. Or 2007/08 when it was around Â£44 billion. 

And not forgetting that due to the drop in the oil price the North Sea companies, who during that period had overtaken the financial sector for total contributions, have not been contributing as much recently and yet still the total revenue has increased.
		
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The recession started in Q2 of 2008 although there would have been significant slowing down prior to this, 
take your point re the oil companies, this also has major repercussions north of the border , but that is for another thread


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Only you and a couple of others on here seem to soak up the right wing press.
		
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Judging by some of the cut and paste comments on here for some I very much doubt that statement...


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## ger147 (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If the Torys do badly in the election and I think it is fair to say that it isn't going to be the walkover that Tory HQ predicted. then I wouldn't be at all surprised to see TM resign, to be replaced by Amber Rudd.

TM for me is damaged now, she started well, but got greedy and this campaign has shown her limitations. 
A woeful manifesto, full of more of the same cuts etc, whereas people are fed up of this, they need to be cut a bit of slack. 
This is where Clever Corbyn has sneaked in with his money tree manifesto, which he will never be able to afford. but even if he can only do 1/4 of it, it will make people feel better off, if only for a time.

Im voting for the "Bring A Bottle " Party 

Click to expand...

I agree - TM is damaged goods IMO and the Tories could end up back where they started i.e. a PM that is "unelected" i.e. not the PM who won the election.

I think they will try and dump her as leader/PM if she just scrapes over the line. She's deffo toast if it's a hung parliament.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I agree - TM is damaged goods IMO and the Tories could end up back where they started i.e. a PM that is "unelected" i.e. not the PM who won the election.

I think they will try and dump her as leader/PM if she just scrapes over the line. She's deffo toast if it's a hung parliament.
		
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My eldest daughter told me 4 months ago that Osbourne would be PM by the autumn.
Not bad forecasting, even if it won't happen.
I wonder who the new leader will be, they all look like damaged goods now.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

The tories will get a majority.  Not as much as some of the more optimistic forecasts at the start of the campaign, but I have no doubt that they will get one.  As despite the fact that TMay is doing her best to seem aloof, with Corbyn's reputation and the push from the right wing print media she/they will really have to screw up next week to not get one.


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## JohnnyDee (Jun 2, 2017)

Watching TM on Question Time debate and the Tories election strategy seemingly can be summed up thus:

We know best.
We're giving no details on policies (if indeed we actually have any)
Our leader is absolutely terrified to appear on a stage with other party leaders.
Jeremy Corbyn is nasty bad bad bad bogey man.


It's risible arrogance and is rapidly being rumbled by the electorate&#128566;.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

If this audience is anything to go by, it looks like it will be a shoe in for Corbyn next week.

May walks off to three folk politely clapping.
Corbyn walks off to rousing cheers.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

I must have watched a different debate.  Corbyn was painted into a corner on nuclear weapons and he knew that question was his Achilles heel that will be his downfall.


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## shagster (Jun 2, 2017)

Can you tell me what deterrent nuclear weapons are
Who ever is in power will only do what the Americans do or are told to do
Corbyn would use it as retaliation but that's to late as Armageddon is on its way
How many terrorist attacks have been stopped because we have big weapons
NONE


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

shagster said:



			Can you tell me what deterrent nuclear weapons are
Who ever is in power will only do what the Americans do or are told to do
Corbyn would use it as retaliation but that's to late as Armageddon is on its way
How many terrorist attacks have been stopped because we have big weapons
NONE
		
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Please supply some evidence to support your point on the USA.
You seem to misunderstand the reason for nuclear weapons,  they are a deterrent if your enemy believes you would use them.
Your point on terrorist attacks and NW is not logical.  It's like saying 'Whats the point of the army having tanks, they have never stopped anyone robbing a Bank'


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I must have watched a different debate.  Corbyn was painted into a corner on nuclear weapons and he knew that question was his Achilles heel that will be his downfall.
		
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Painted into a corner eh.
Can you then explain how the audience then gave a such good cheer to the young woman who called out the swivel eyed bombing loons who wanted Corbyn to use first strike and who were scared witless that the UK was going to be nuked by North Korea and Iran


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## jp5 (Jun 3, 2017)

Quite alarmed by the portion of our public that are seemingly eager to nuke millions of innocent people. Thought we were a better country than that.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Painted into a corner eh.
Can you then explain how the audience then gave a such good cheer to the young woman who called out the swivel eyed bombing loons who wanted Corbyn to use first strike and who were scared witless that the UK was going to be nuked by North Korea and Iran

Click to expand...




jp5 said:



			Quite alarmed by the portion of our public that are seemingly eager to nuke millions of innocent people. Thought we were a better country than that.
		
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Totally agree! Since when have we become a first strike nation? That makes us the loons, if we fire first. Right until some loon in a far distant country presses a button we don't know that they will. 

As as for a terrorist with a dirty bomb; there's very little that could be done apart from hoping to catch them during the manufacturing phase.


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## richy (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I must have watched a different debate.  Corbyn was painted into a corner on nuclear weapons and he knew that question was his Achilles heel that will be his downfall.
		
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It's an Achilles heel not to want to wipe out millions of people?

I think he needs to be commended.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Painted into a corner eh.
Can you then explain how the audience then gave a such good cheer to the young woman who called out the swivel eyed bombing loons who wanted Corbyn to use first strike and who were scared witless that the UK was going to be nuked by North Korea and Iran

Click to expand...

It wasnt the first strike question, I think every one agrees we dont want that, it was the refusal to say if he would use them if attacked.   If he wont then how can he lead a party who believes we should.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Quite alarmed by the portion of our public that are seemingly eager to nuke millions of innocent people. Thought we were a better country than that.
		
Click to expand...

So if someone like North Korea were to hit us with a nuclear weapon we should start negotiations with them.


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## User62651 (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So if someone like North Korea were to hit us with a nuclear weapon we should start negotiations with them.
		
Click to expand...

No that wasn't said, if they did that we'd respond, he wouldn't nuke them first, that's all that was established. 

They cant reach us from a land launch and we cant reach them, if they sneaked a submarine in to lauch one at us we'd not know where the attack was from in an instant to respond unless Kim Jong Un said so, we'd probably be looking at Russia first, ISIS would probably claim it too! Then we'd have to mobilise our 4 subs to get over in launch range of Korea which would take a week or more probably. We'd be asking the Yanks to nuke them for us as they'll have strike subs or ships in the area no doubt and by that time it'll have kicked off everywhere = armageddon.


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## jp5 (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So if someone like North Korea were to hit us with a nuclear weapon we should start negotiations with them.
		
Click to expand...

There's 190 odd countries in the world that successfully manage without nuclear weapons. I'd rather see us part of that group.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2017)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-invisible-tree/#more-95651

We know were the Magical Money Tree is located.........11 Downing Street


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2017)

Christ on a bike, is the election now a competition over who will be most likely to launch a nuclear strike.  Hey, the public services are chronically underfunded, the country is becoming more divided and we are kissing goodbye to the largest trading bloc in the world.  But at least we can trigger likely global nuclear armageddon. Making Britain great again.....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Christ on a bike, is the election now a competition over who will be most likely to launch a nuclear strike.  Hey, the public services are chronically underfunded, the country is becoming more divided and we are kissing goodbye to the largest trading bloc in the world.  But at least we can trigger likely global nuclear armageddon. Making Britain great again.....
		
Click to expand...

That's all gross exaggeration, seems rather the norm from you now.  Kissing goodbye to the largest trading block!  So you are suggesting we will do no more trade with the EU are you, do you really think that's going to happen?  Public services are receiving more money overall now than they ever have.  I have to agree people like you are creating divisions rather than getting behind the democratically agreed decision to leave the EU you are continuing to act like truculent children who have lost their dummies.  I don't think Christ ever rode a bike and did anyone suggest the election was 'ALL ABOUT' launching a nuclear strike.   Like I said 'gross exaggeration'


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Christ on a bike, is the election now a competition over who will be most likely to launch a nuclear strike.  Hey, the public services are chronically underfunded, the country is becoming more divided and we are kissing goodbye to the largest trading bloc in the world.  But at least we can trigger likely global nuclear armageddon. Making Britain great again.....
		
Click to expand...

That is poor sound bite politicking. The royal we should debate every aspect of the machine that is the management of our country. Petty point scoring by saying we shouldn't discuss the bomb is actually dangerous. 

In in terms of inflationary rises the NHS and education is worse off than under Labour but the deficit has been reduced by Â£110bn...choose your politics.... For me, invest in education will, in the longer term, bring down the deficit b having intelligent people run the country. But that wouldn't have satisfied the short term need 7 years ago.

Is now the right to increase spending? For god's sake yes! We have to improve social care. We have to improve the NHS and education. But is the Labour's splurge the right answer? Not for me, but neither is a continuation of Tory rule... can we have Sturgeon as PM but without the independence rubbish?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

View expressed by a commentator in _The Scotsman _this weekend that I can go along with.

_Theresa May is awkward and skirts around the edges of weird_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So if someone like North Korea were to hit us with a nuclear weapon we should start negotiations with them.
		
Click to expand...

Though this isn't a JC thread, I've not noticed that NK have - or will have anytime soon (before the next election in 2022) - a ballistic missile that can carry a nuclear warhead with a range that would put the UK under threat, or indeed the geo-political developments that would result in NK seeking to attack UK and self-destruct.  

And I'm also not sure which other nation might have, or develop, such a weapon before 2022 and actually find itself so out-of-kilter with the UK that it would carry out a first strike attack against us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

Begs the obvious question that no one replies to.......how would we know it was from North Korea?


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## USER1999 (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Begs the obvious question that no one replies to.......how would we know it was from North Korea?
		
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It would have been aimed at America, but hit us by accident.


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## pogle (Jun 5, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			It would have been aimed at America, but hit us by accident.
		
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Or aimed at North Korea by the Americans and hit us by accident....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 5, 2017)

There must be some dodgy guidance systems out there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There must be some dodgy guidance systems out there.
		
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None that I designed


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Begs the obvious question that no one replies to.......how would we know it was from North Korea?
		
Click to expand...

It would have a weird hairstyle.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-invisible-tree/#more-95651

We know were the Magical Money Tree is located.........11 Downing Street
		
Click to expand...

The Magic Money Tree is  somewhere in the Tax Evasion Forest.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It would have a weird hairstyle.
		
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How about an honest answer.......big hole in the centre of London millions killed......how do we know who put it there so we can retaliate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about an honest answer.......big hole in the centre of London millions killed......how do we know who put it there so we can retaliate.
		
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It will have been tracked from a long way out and most likely attempts will have been made to intercept it either immediately following launch or exoatmospherically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoatmospheric_Kill_Vehicle


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It will have been tracked from a long way out and most likely attempts will have been made to intercept it either immediately following launch or exoatmospherically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoatmospheric_Kill_Vehicle

Click to expand...

a] If it was missile launched who is to say that it was not a Ruskies sub close to the North Korean coast.
b] What happens if it is not a missile launched strike. eg Container shipment to Liverpool.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about an honest answer.......big hole in the centre of London millions killed......how do we know who put it there so we can retaliate.
		
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Most launch areas are tracked by satellite. Also, by creating tropospheric scatter radar can be used to view over the horizon. Then there's the maths element of reverse engineering the track. Don't worry, plenty of people will know who killed us.


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## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

Any rocket not just nuclear are seen as soon as they are launched. Those satellites in space aren't just there for your sat nav and golf gizzmos.  Most people with a modicum of intelligence know that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

Goodness me, has Spitting Image returned.
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/rude-theresa-may-structure-erected-126737/


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Most launch areas are tracked by satellite. Also, by creating tropospheric scatter radar can be used to view over the horizon. Then there's the maths element of reverse engineering the track. Don't worry, plenty of people will know who killed us.
		
Click to expand...

So our nuclear subs are useless............basically big suicide bombs.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So our nuclear subs are useless............basically big suicide bombs.
		
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Not sure what you mean...

If you mean their position is always known by an enemy... no. Subs can hide from surface detection by staying below the isothermic barrier. Or is it that you feel their position will be known immediately they launch? Only if the satellite is aimed in that general area.


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## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So our nuclear subs are useless............basically big suicide bombs.
		
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Bit different being permanently positioned over a land mass than covering the oceans of the world. Do catch up Pike.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Most launch areas are tracked by satellite. Also, by creating tropospheric scatter radar can be used to view over the horizon. Then there's the maths element of reverse engineering the track. Don't worry, plenty of people will know who killed us.
		
Click to expand...

Plenty out there in the public domain about _Brilliant Eyes_


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure what you mean...

If you mean their position is always known by an enemy... no. Subs can hide from surface detection by staying below the isothermic barrier. Or is it that you feel their position will be known immediately they launch? Only if the satellite is aimed in that general area.
		
Click to expand...

I do not understand what you mean by 'only if the missile is aimed in that general direction'.
The example of a Russian sub launching a missile on the UK from close to the North Korean coast springs to mind.
Can the Russian subs missiles travel that far?


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## User62651 (Jun 6, 2017)

May set to be seen squirming a little in tonights ITV interview wrt stat that of 350 returning jihadis to UK from Syria in the last 2 years, only 1 temporary exclusion order has issued. This on top of that rather smug old footage being played of her as HS telling the police conference to not 'cry wolf' over personnel numbers required is showing her up in bad light at the worst time when people are struggling with terror attacks and so close to polling day. She can't blame Corbyn for that or for exploiting it politically.
Whole election was supposed to be about Brexit for May, seems there hasn't been that much talk of Brexit at all during this campaign, particularly latterly given tragic events. It's right however that opposition parties and media have made the focus about all the issues and not just Brexit, it is a GE not a Brexit vote after all, and have not allowed May a coronation at least, before she almost certainly wins Thursday. 

I dont think she or her team could have imagined a worse campaign.

41.5% Con v 40.4% Lab headline in the Evening Standard online today. Is this just bitter Osbourne spinning or is it really that close? Might be a scare tactic to get Tories out voting as well as a dig at May from GO.

Whatever happens Thursday her image and self billed reputation as strong and stable has been lessened significantly imo from where she was a couple of months ago.   

A catalog of misjudgements including calling this GE doesn't inspire confidence in her as leader moving forward. Her decision making ability is in serious question.

Will give her a chance nonetheless to prove herself should she win handsomely Thursday for the good of the country, if she doesn't win handsomely her goose might be cooked anyway. 
If it comes to that wonder if she'll fall on her sword a la DaveC or dig in and wait to get pushed like MaggieT.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do not understand what you mean by 'only if the missile is aimed in that general direction'.
The example of a Russian sub launching a missile on the UK from close to the North Korean coast springs to mind.
Can the Russian subs missiles travel that far?
		
Click to expand...

Read the post again. If the satellite is aimed in that general direction it will see the launch. By calculating the launch characteristics, acceleration etc, the type of missile will be identified. Russia isn't selling subs or missiles with those capabilities to anyone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Read the post again. If the satellite is aimed in that general direction it will see the launch. By calculating the launch characteristics, acceleration etc, the type of missile will be identified. Russia isn't selling subs or missiles with those capabilities to anyone.
		
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Thanks sorry for miss read.
So am I correct in thinking that if the satellite is not pointed at a specific area we do not have a clue who is sending the missile from a sub.
I was giving the scenario of a Russian nuclear attack on UK camouflaged as a NK attack.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks sorry for miss read.
So am I correct in thinking that if the satellite is not pointed at a specific area we do not have a clue who is sending the missile from a sub.
I was giving the scenario of a Russian nuclear attack on UK camouflaged as a NK attack.
		
Click to expand...

Areas of potential conflict will be under permanent surveillance. And as previously stated, there's enough time to track anything incoming to verify type etc. Don't forget, there's been the capability to track them since the late 50's/60's. 

There's also the SONUS undersea detection system that's been in operation for a number of years. Subs, even deep submersed, need stealth protection now.


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## ger147 (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks sorry for miss read.
So am I correct in thinking that if the satellite is not pointed at a specific area we do not have a clue who is sending the missile from a sub.
I was giving the scenario of a Russian nuclear attack on UK camouflaged as a NK attack.
		
Click to expand...

No you are not correct.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...g_on_Police_Scotland___s_VAT_bill/?ref=twtrec

Mayhem thinks that VAT is devolved in Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

ger147 said:



			No you are not correct.
		
Click to expand...

So am I right in thinking that the Trident subs are then just big suicide bombs.
Soon as they fire a missile they are sitting ducks.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...g_on_Police_Scotland___s_VAT_bill/?ref=twtrec

Mayhem thinks that VAT is devolved in Scotland.

Click to expand...

Oh dear god. The fact she went straight to "I support shoot to kill" is just another example of how she can't think on her feet. If anyone had even the slightest thought that she is the "great leader" to lead us through Brexit, please please look at what she is doing.

As a Tory historically, who can't support May, is it too much to hope for that she resigns pretty quickly and we get someone vaguely competent in, when the Tories no doubt still win the GE?


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## ger147 (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So am I right in thinking that the Trident subs are then just big suicide bombs.
Soon as they fire a missile they are sitting ducks.
		
Click to expand...

No, wrong again.


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## User62651 (Jun 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So am I right in thinking that the Trident subs are then just big suicide bombs.
Soon as they fire a missile they are sitting ducks.
		
Click to expand...

Cant they fire then dive deep, use stealth technology and hide? 
Would the sub fire all its missiles in one go - if they are a sitting duck as suggested you'd think they would have to or else lose all the onboard nukes?
Would you fire a nuke at a nuclear sub or a specific anti sub missile/depth charge weapon? 
Does a nuclear bomb even work underwater? 

So many questions.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh dear god. The fact she went straight to "I support shoot to kill" is just another example of how she can't think on her feet. If anyone had even the slightest thought that she is the "great leader" to lead us through Brexit, please please look at what she is doing.

As a Tory historically, who can't support May, *is it too much to hope for that she resigns pretty quickly and we get someone vaguely competent in, when the Tories no doubt still win the GE?*

Click to expand...

I agree that TMay is poor,  but then again that does not actually bother me as much as their policies do. It is pretty clear by now that she is a quite a poor communicator and mostly just regurgitates pre-prepared statements like she is reading a mental auto queue. But I've kind of got used to that by now and I'd much rather vote on the the basis of the manifesto and policies.  

But who will replace her though? Who in the Tory party can instil a note of optimism for the future of Britain with that manifesto? Or are we just consigned to having very dull and uninspiring leaders who seem to want to pull the wool over the publics eyes by re-branding the lack of dynamism, lack of any inspiration, lack of any sign of hope as 'strong and stable'?


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## Crazyface (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh dear god. The fact she went straight to "I support shoot to kill" is just another example of how she can't think on her feet. If anyone had even the slightest thought that she is the "great leader" to lead us through Brexit, please please look at what she is doing.

As a Tory historically, who can't support May, is it too much to hope for that she resigns pretty quickly and we get someone vaguely competent in, when the Tories no doubt still win the GE?
		
Click to expand...

TM initially gave us a good impression,but as the campaign has gone on her refusal to debate show lack of belief in her own abilities, intellect and policies. She also has a weird gait, sure that shouldn't matter, but it does. Thing is Corbyn has Abbott on his side and anyone who votes for Labour knowing that Abbott will be at the forefront of everything wants their bumps felt. (I've put that as nice as possible, what I want to say will get me a slapped wrist). So for all our sakes think before you vote!!!!!!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			May set to be seen squirming a little in tonights ITV interview wrt stat that of 350 returning jihadis to UK from Syria in the last 2 years, only 1 temporary exclusion order has issued. This on top of that rather smug old footage being played of her as HS telling the police conference to not 'cry wolf' over personnel numbers required is showing her up in bad light at the worst time when people are struggling with terror attacks and so close to polling day. She can't blame Corbyn for that or for exploiting it politically.
Whole election was supposed to be about Brexit for May, seems there hasn't been that much talk of Brexit at all during this campaign, particularly latterly given tragic events. It's right however that opposition parties and media have made the focus about all the issues and not just Brexit, *it is a GE not a Brexit vote after all*, and have not allowed May a coronation at least, before she almost certainly wins Thursday. 

I dont think she or her team could have imagined a worse campaign.

41.5% Con v 40.4% Lab headline in the Evening Standard online today. Is this just bitter Osbourne spinning or is it really that close? Might be a scare tactic to get Tories out voting as well as a dig at May from GO.

Whatever happens Thursday her image and self billed reputation as strong and stable has been lessened significantly imo from where she was a couple of months ago.   

A catalog of misjudgements including calling this GE doesn't inspire confidence in her as leader moving forward. Her decision making ability is in serious question.

Will give her a chance nonetheless to prove herself should she win handsomely Thursday for the good of the country, if she doesn't win handsomely her goose might be cooked anyway. 
If it comes to that wonder if she'll fall on her sword a la DaveC or dig in and wait to get pushed like MaggieT.

Click to expand...

The problem I see with taking that view is that a bad Brexit deal will clobber much of what is in any manifesto - indeed the parties must have made some assumptions about a deal on which to base their manifesto pledges - or maybe they haven't?   

That's why the lack of debate on key Brexit issues has been IMO shameful - Tories hiding being 'we mustn't give our hand away' and Labour not sure at all about what sort of deal they'd want.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh dear god. *The fact she went straight to "I support shoot to kill" i*s just another example of how she can't think on her feet. If anyone had even the slightest thought that she is the "great leader" to lead us through Brexit, please please look at what she is doing.

As a Tory historically, who can't support May, is it too much to hope for that she resigns pretty quickly and we get someone vaguely competent in, when the Tories no doubt still win the GE?
		
Click to expand...

I thought about that as well.  Anyone with any conscience or Christian values would at least hesitate before making such a statement - and would not be quite so strident and certain in making the statement.  Did she really think about what she was saying or did she say what she felt that the electorate wanted to hear?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			May set to be seen squirming a little in tonights ITV interview wrt stat that of 350 returning jihadis to UK from Syria in the last 2 years, only 1 temporary exclusion order has issued. This on top of that rather smug old footage being played of her as HS telling the police conference to not 'cry wolf' over personnel numbers required is showing her up in bad light at the worst time when people are struggling with terror attacks and so close to polling day. She can't blame Corbyn for that or for exploiting it politically.
Whole election was supposed to be about Brexit for May, seems there hasn't been that much talk of Brexit at all during this campaign, particularly latterly given tragic events. It's right however that opposition parties and media have made the focus about all the issues and not just Brexit, it is a GE not a Brexit vote after all, and have not allowed May a coronation at least, before she almost certainly wins Thursday. 

I dont think she or her team could have imagined a worse campaign.

*41.5% Con v 40.4% Lab headline in the Evening Standard online today. Is this just bitter Osbourne spinning or is it really that close? Might be a scare tactic to get Tories out voting as well as a dig at May from GO.*

Whatever happens Thursday her image and self billed reputation as strong and stable has been lessened significantly imo from where she was a couple of months ago.   

A catalog of misjudgements including calling this GE doesn't inspire confidence in her as leader moving forward. Her decision making ability is in serious question.

Will give her a chance nonetheless to prove herself should she win handsomely Thursday for the good of the country, if she doesn't win handsomely her goose might be cooked anyway. 
If it comes to that wonder if she'll fall on her sword a la DaveC or dig in and wait to get pushed like MaggieT.

Click to expand...

Or it could be that recent experience shows us that polls have been completely discredited as a way of knowing who will vote for whom.  They have messed up big time in the last 3 big votes I can remember. Even failing to pick the winner 2 times out of 3 in a 2 horse race.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought about that as well.  Anyone with any conscience or Christian values would at least hesitate before making such a statement - and would not be quite so strident and certain in making the statement.  Did she really think about what she was saying or did she say what she felt that the electorate wanted to hear?
		
Click to expand...

Why? What's wrong with supporting a shoot to kill policy? Would I rather the police weren't put in a position to have to do it? Of course I would. Am I happy that the police have the option to terminate the scum with a bullet between the eyes? Absolutely I am. The vermin carrying out these sorts of attacks need to be stopped as quickly as possible and if they're laying on the road in a puddle of their own blood and several bullet holes in their head then they aren't going to be stabbing anyone else.


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why? What's wrong with supporting a shoot to kill policy? Would I rather the police weren't put in a position to have to do it? Of course I would. Am I happy that the police have the option to terminate the scum with a bullet between the eyes? Absolutely I am. The vermin carrying out these sorts of attacks need to be stopped as quickly as possible and if they're laying on the road in a puddle of their own blood and several bullet holes in their head then they aren't going to be stabbing anyone else.
		
Click to expand...

............ is the right answer :thup:.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why? What's wrong with supporting a shoot to kill policy? Would I rather the police weren't put in a position to have to do it? Of course I would. Am I happy that the police have the option to terminate the scum with a bullet between the eyes? Absolutely I am. The vermin carrying out these sorts of attacks need to be stopped as quickly as possible and if they're laying on the road in a puddle of their own blood and several bullet holes in their head then they aren't going to be stabbing anyone else.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying she's wrong, I just flinched a little about her absolute certainty over a shoot to kill policy - and that would cover not just for guys with fake or real suicide vests on.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

I absolutely wouldn't support bringing back capital punishment! But where does that leave me with reconciling a shoot to kill? A policeman making the snap decision to kill... 3 guys running at you with 12" blades, having already done untold harm. I can't make that decision, even now viewing it in the cold light of day.

Do you shoot to wound, incapacitate? Does that hesitation cause more danger? Do you shoot with the certainty to stop more harm to others?

Too late he's killed me and now moved on to others.

I can't make that decision but I am eternally grateful that someone else can.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not saying she's wrong, I just flinched a little about her absolute certainty over a shoot to kill policy - and that would cover not just for guys with fake or real suicide vests on.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think the vicar's daughter, with her upbringing and beliefs, is truly comfortable with the decision. But she can't flinch, officially.

Corbyn takes 12 hours to make his mind up, flip flopping from his life long principles to what is needed as a leader of this country. Brexit negotiator, no. Security of the nation, no. I wouldn't trust him protecting kids at a school crossing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

Do you think May convinced the 70 Tory activists bussed in to an empty warehouse in Edinburgh and ordered to give her a 'big welcoming cheer' that she was a strong and stable leader.

Another long distance to travel just for another fake photo opportunity.
You would have thought they might have learned something from the shed meeting in the forest.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Do you think the vicar's daughter, with her upbringing and beliefs, is truly comfortable with the decision. But she can't flinch, officially.

Corbyn takes 12 hours to make his mind up, flip flopping from his life long principles to what is needed as a leader of this country. Brexit negotiator, no. Security of the nation, no. I wouldn't trust him protecting kids at a school crossing.
		
Click to expand...

The man is obsessed with peace. He is the perfect person to try and protect the country (and kids at a school crossing). You're not telling me you're trusting the hack jobs regurgitating nonsense about him "not believing in shoot to kill" are you?


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			The man is obsessed with peace. He is the perfect person to try and protect the country (and kids at a school crossing). You're not telling me you're trusting the hack jobs regurgitating nonsense about him "not believing in shoot to kill" are you?
		
Click to expand...

No, I'm trusting what I heard him say on Sunday morning and on Sunday night. Not the hacks, nor the spin doctors from the Tory party. His own words, his own indecisive flip flopping.

Everyone wants peace, but he wants it at any price...

You're not telling me you're willing to dismiss the evidence from his own mouth?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

The National Labour manifesto has a lot in common with what the SNP have been doing for the last 10 years.
SNP encouraging folk to vote for Corbyn outside of Scotland

The Scottish Labour [Blairites] seem to be opposed to both The SNP and their Labour national party. 
Scottish Labour encouraging folk to vote Tory in Scotland where the SLAB candidate is unpopular.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			No, I'm trusting what I heard him say on Sunday morning and on Sunday night. Not the hacks, nor the spin doctors from the Tory party. His own words, his own indecisive flip flopping.

Everyone wants peace, but he wants it at any price...

You're not telling me you're willing to dismiss the evidence from his own mouth?
		
Click to expand...

I'm always happy to be corrected. I didn't see these speeches. I've just googled his speech on Sunday evening and found http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...s-speech-terrorism-will-do-him-more-good-harm. This doesn't seem too bad. I'm assuming from your post his speech Sunday morning was the opposite or something? Any links for me to research? Thanks


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I'm always happy to be corrected. I didn't see these speeches. I've just googled his speech on Sunday evening and found http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...s-speech-terrorism-will-do-him-more-good-harm. This doesn't seem too bad. I'm assuming from your post his speech Sunday morning was the opposite or something? Any links for me to research? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Only got the iPhone but if you YouTube Jc shoot to kill he flip flops on it in the morning but unequivocally states in the evening that he would support the police in the use of whatever force the deem necessary.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Only got the iPhone but if you YouTube Jc shoot to kill he flip flops on it in the morning but unequivocally states in the evening that he would support the police in the use of whatever force the deem necessary.
		
Click to expand...

Sunday morning wasn't a speech it was questioning over the terrorist attack the night before, is it fair using his words against him when all he was trying to do was express sympathy towards the victims.

You really really don't like him do you


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Sunday morning wasn't a speech it was questioning over the terrorist attack the night before, is it fair using his words against him when all he was trying to do was express sympathy towards the victims.

You really really don't like him do you 

Click to expand...

Am I going crazy? the only speech about shoot to kill appears to be from months ago, where a complaint was subsequently upheld for taking them out of context? Please help me out!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Am I going crazy? the only speech about shoot to kill appears to be from months ago, where a complaint was subsequently upheld for taking them out of context? Please help me out!
		
Click to expand...

He was interviewed (not a speech) on sunday morning when the main parties paused their campaigns after the attack.
Sunday evening he made a speech in the NW about security, in this one he backed the Police action on saturday and said the decision should be left to the guy on the ground, in the past he's been totally against any sort of shoot to kill policy.

Some see it as flip floppin,


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Sunday morning wasn't a speech it was questioning over the terrorist attack the night before, is it fair using his words against him when all he was trying to do was express sympathy towards the victims.

You really really don't like him do you 

Click to expand...

I actually like him a lot, and would love to sit down for a beer with him, unlike May. I genuinely think he's an honest decent person. I think he struggles to reconcile his far left principles with his position, and because of that gets caught out in interviews. I don't like his politics, and I think McDonnell as PM in waiting scares the hell out of me.

With a different top table in the Labour Party, but with most of the current manifesto which I have read, I'd vote Labour without evening blinking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I actually like him a lot, and would love to sit down for a beer with him, unlike May. I genuinely think he's an honest decent person. I think he struggles to reconcile his far left principles with his position, and because of that gets caught out in interviews. I don't like his politics, and I think McDonnell as PM in waiting scares the hell out of me.

With a different top table in the Labour Party, but with most of the current manifesto which I have read, I'd vote Labour without evening blinking.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree to that :thup:


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought about that as well.  Anyone with any conscience or Christian values would at least hesitate before making such a statement - and would not be quite so strident and certain in making the statement.  Did she really think about what she was saying or did she say what she felt that the electorate wanted to hear?
		
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Shoot to kill is the only option if you are shooting at people.  What do people think happens when a bullet hits at speed. Anything other than a kill is pure luck.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Shoot to kill is the only option if you are shooting at people.  What do people think happens when a bullet hits at speed. Anything other than a kill is pure luck.
		
Click to expand...

You have to ask them to stand still while you get steady and aim at their big toe, that just makes them limp


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			You have to ask them to stand still while you get steady and aim at their big toe, that just makes them limp 

Click to expand...

Marksman, I go for the left ear.


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2017)

With a 120mm


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2017)

[video=youtube_share;p7iUYWMD77w]https://youtu.be/p7iUYWMD77w[/video]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Do you think the vicar's daughter, with her upbringing and beliefs, is truly comfortable with the decision. But she can't flinch, officially.

Corbyn takes 12 hours to make his mind up, flip flopping from his life long principles to what is needed as a leader of this country. Brexit negotiator, no. Security of the nation, no. I wouldn't trust him protecting kids at a school crossing.
		
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This is what baffles me a bit about May.  She seems to be chucking some of her most important values and beliefs out of the window to present the necessary line.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

The more I see of May and hear from her - the slightly curious verging on the weird she seems,  mind you Corbyn likewise...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is what baffles me a bit about May.  She seems to be chucking some of her most important values and beliefs out of the window to present the necessary line.
		
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Wasn't there a discussion on one of the threads recently about Tim Farron and his beliefs (same sex marriage and abortion) and how it was unfair to press him on them because he'd put them to one side and they weren't influencing him politically. Surely if that's the case we have to apply the same rules to May.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/15329966.Camley_s_Cartoon_on_Tuesday__June_6/?ref=twtrec

Things must be bad in Toryland when The Herald turns against them.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2017)

There's a story on Facebook that May has been reported to the police for making a false statement about Abbott to do with the DNA database. Apparently this is a criminal matter and if proved she will lose her seat (assuming she wins it on Thursday) and could be banned from holding public office. Seems there's a precedent when a previous offender was banned for three years.

No idea if the story is true and can't post the link as I'm on my Kindle.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's a story on Facebook that May has been reported to the police for making a false statement about Abbott to do with the DNA database. Apparently this is a criminal matter and if proved she will lose her seat (assuming she wins it on Thursday) and could be banned from holding public office. Seems there's a precedent when a previous offender was banned for three years.

No idea if the story is true and can't post the link as I'm on my Kindle.
		
Click to expand...

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/04/ma...r-abbott-comment-electoral-breach-ge17-bbcqt/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...heresa-may-dna-database-untruth-a7770656.html


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## ger147 (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/04/ma...r-abbott-comment-electoral-breach-ge17-bbcqt/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...heresa-may-dna-database-untruth-a7770656.html

Click to expand...

It might be a bit of an issue for the prosecution that DA did actually say that, altho apparently she has since changed her mind.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2017)

ger147 said:



			It might be a bit of an issue for the prosecution that DA did actually say that, altho apparently she has since changed her mind.
		
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You mean that she's performed a u turn? Well I hope the usual suspects will be along shortly to criticise her in the same way they criticise May for her u turns. Although I won't be holding my breath.


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2017)

ger147 said:



			It might be a bit of an issue for the prosecution that DA did actually say that, altho apparently she has since changed her mind.
		
Click to expand...

And her hair do


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

Compare and Contrast

_We will not repeal or replace the Human Rights Act while the process of Brexit is underway but we will consider our Human Rights framework when the process of leaving the EU concludes_

From Tory Party Manifesto 2107

with

_I'll tear up Human Rights Laws so we can deport terrorists_

Theresa May today http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-not-let-human-rights-act-stop-bringing-new/

You turn if you want to.  The Maybe's all for turning.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Compare and Contrast

_We will not repeal or replace the Human Rights Act while the process of Brexit is underway but we will consider our Human Rights framework when the process of leaving the EU concludes_

From Tory Party Manifesto 2107

with

_I'll tear up Human Rights Laws so we can deport terrorists_

Theresa May today http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-not-let-human-rights-act-stop-bringing-new/

You turn if you want to.  The Maybe's all for turning.
		
Click to expand...

Compare and contrast :

I'll tear up Human Rights Laws so we can deport terrorists (what you posted)

With!

"And if human rights laws get in the way of doing these things, we will change those laws to make sure we can do them.
 "If I am elected as Prime Minister on Thursday, I can tell you that this vital work begins on Friday."   What she said.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Compare and contrast :

I'll tear up Human Rights Laws so we can deport terrorists (what you posted)

With!

"And if human rights laws get in the way of doing these things, we will change those laws to make sure we can do them.
 "If I am elected as Prime Minister on Thursday, I can tell you that this vital work begins on Friday."   What she said.
		
Click to expand...

Why pick on the words rather than the point being made?

Nice deflection, why hasn't she advocated this over the last 7 years?


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## Crazyface (Jun 7, 2017)

Sorry to go off your discussion, but what I don't get is this using your assets to pay for your upkeep when you are older. This will only apply to those who actually have something, so those "hard working families". Those who have sponged off the state all their lives will get it all paid for. the seriously rich will pay for their care BECAUSE THEY CAN! The "hard working families" are the ones who will have to pay and lose out.


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Why pick on the words rather than the point being made?

Nice deflection, why hasn't she advocated this over the last 7 years?
		
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I think you may find it was because they were part of EU legislation and being in the EU.  I could be wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I think you may find it was because they were part of EU legislation and being in the EU.  I could be wrong.
		
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You probably are :rofl:


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			You probably are :rofl:
		
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There's always a first time but I'm not sure its this time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			There's always a first time but I'm not sure its this time.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe not


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Why pick on the words rather than the point being made?

Nice deflection, why hasn't she advocated this over the last 7 years?
		
Click to expand...

She has obviously been slacking with the day job and spending too much time concentrating on keeping the UK in the EU.


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## richy (Jun 7, 2017)

Didn't the Human Rights Act help uncover the truth about Hillsborough?


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Compare and Contrast

_We will not repeal or replace the Human Rights Act while the process of Brexit is underway but we will consider our Human Rights framework when the process of leaving the EU concludes_

From Tory Party Manifesto* 2107*

with

_I'll tear up Human Rights Laws so we can deport terrorists_

Theresa May today http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-not-let-human-rights-act-stop-bringing-new/

You turn if you want to.  The Maybe's all for turning.
		
Click to expand...


We can all relax SILH has got a direct line to the future :thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

First PM to refuse an interview on Ch4 News in 7 GE and first PM in 40 years to refuse an invertiew on Radio 2.

Strong enough to handle Brexit negotiations but not Media interviews


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## richy (Jun 7, 2017)

By not entering into the leaders debate showed how weak she actually is. 

Or is it sheer arrogance?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			You probably are :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Why pick on the words rather than the point being made?
 :rofl:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why pick on the words rather than the point being made?
 :rofl:
		
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Because soldiers understand each other with a healthy dose of respect :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Because soldiers understand each other with a healthy dose of respect :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Dont expect much from a Matelot :thup:


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 8, 2017)

Closing all political threads while polling stations are open
Go Vote &#128077;


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

In response to the OP, it seems not....


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

To lose one leader after an unnecessary vote that wasn't needed could be called unfortunate. But to potentially lose two...... 

Very careless.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

:whoo: :whoo: :whoo:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			:whoo: :whoo: :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Can understand entirely why people are enjoying the egg in her face.

That being said, a split parliament is the worst we could of hoped for imo


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Can understand entirely why people are enjoying the egg in her face.

That being said, a split parliament is the worst we could of hoped for imo
		
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The women has gambled with all our futures, absolute disgrace.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Rumours on Twitter that she's about to resign.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The women has gambled with all our futures, absolute disgrace.
		
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Tbf. When she called it, not many considered it a gamble.

I'm just miffed as was about to sort my holiday pennies and it's lost 2 points already lol


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The women has gambled with all our futures, absolute disgrace.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair the Tories have some form in that area.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Tbf. When she called it, not many considered it a gamble.

I'm just miffed as was about to sort my holiday pennies and it's lost 2 points already lol
		
Click to expand...

It didn't need calling, we voted for Brexit and she had a majority!!! Stupid woman.


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## richy (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			It didn't need calling, we voted for Brexit and she had a majority!!! Stupid woman.
		
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It was sheer arrogance on her part as she wanted a GE win as leader on her CV.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			It didn't need calling, we voted for Brexit and she had a majority!!! Stupid woman.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it needed to be called. Just that when she called it, it wasn't a gamble.

Nobody gave Corbyn a hope!

She wanted a greater majority (which people expected) so that the brexit negotiations would be free from disruption. I can see exactly why she did it. Likely she wont be needed to worry about such things for much longer though.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Can understand entirely why people are enjoying the egg in her face.

That being said, a split parliament is the worst we could of hoped for imo
		
Click to expand...

Personally a crushing Tory majority is the worst I could have hoped for. 

You never know, this might lead to a bit more compromise instead of the current system that seems to just please one section of society but utterly appaul another. I know the money markets don't like that sort of thing. But it may lead to a slightly now pleasant society.


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## gmhubble (Jun 9, 2017)

Oh Lordy - who the hell was advising her? This is a monumental error 

Pound falling
No stability
Brexit negotiations to stall 

OMG as my son would say


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Personally a crushing Tory majority is the worst I could have hoped for. 

You never know, this might lead to a bit more compromise instead of the current system that seems to just please one section of society but utterly appaul another. I know the money markets don't like that sort of thing. But it may lead to a slightly now pleasant society.
		
Click to expand...

I think they all look out for themselves first and foremost tbh. I would love to see a parliament when democracy and compromise worked, but i fear it will just be lots of contested issues with little getting sorted. Much like Obama suffered during his term.


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## ger147 (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Rumours on Twitter that she's about to resign.
		
Click to expand...

She's deffo finished, it's just a matter of when she goes.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Saw on Twitter that the Tories lost every marginal seat she visited on the election campaign. But that may well be social media exaggeration.


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2017)

May to go - almost no doubt about that

But who the hell do we get next..?&#128552;


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			May to go - almost no doubt about that

But who the hell do we get next..?&#128552;
		
Click to expand...

Bojo?  God help us in the Brexit negotiations with him at the helm.


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## Fish (Jun 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			May to go - almost no doubt about that

But who the hell do we get next..?&#128552;
		
Click to expand...

I like Ruth Davies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

I'll say one thing, I don't think you would of ever seen Maggie wearing red on an election night.
It's irrelevant, unimportant trivia, but looking at TM stood there waiting for results in her constituencey you could easily think she was the Labour candidate.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

One thing that I do think is a bit silly is having all these joke candidates standing who are mostly deeply unpopular, there's no real need for them to have done this and they and are really just there for the sake of their ego. 





Also not sure what the guy with the bucket on his head is doing either...


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## gmhubble (Jun 9, 2017)

OMG

Trump in USA and Bojo in UK

Hollywood would have turned the script down!!

Am reminded of back to the future ... 'Reagan is an actor not a President' 



Hacker Khan said:



			Bojo?  God help us in the Brexit negotiations with him at the helm.
		
Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

I think the electorate has answered the op. May's campaign style, and an unpopular manifesto has seen an electorate thumb their nose at May's weak and wobbly.


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 9, 2017)

Resignation?...Theresa just teeing it up for one final u-turn.


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## Orikoru (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			One thing that I do think is a bit silly is having all these joke candidates standing who are mostly deeply unpopular, there's no real need for them to have done this and they and are really just there for the sake of their ego. 

View attachment 22905



Also not sure what the guy with the bucket on his head is doing either...
		
Click to expand...

Lord Buckethead got around 250 votes...


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## gmhubble (Jun 9, 2017)

We have all seen Tin Cup

This is where she turns round and drives it down the road





the smiling assassin said:



			Resignation?...Theresa just teeing it up for one final u-turn.
		
Click to expand...


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## User62651 (Jun 9, 2017)

the smiling assassin said:



			Resignation?...Theresa just teeing it up for one final u-turn.
		
Click to expand...

I think she'll try and hang on too but the party wont have it, hopeless campaign, her days are numbered. Only needs DUP on side to get her past 326 though. Think she'll try and grab that.

EU already ok with delaying Brexit talks so that 'urgency' is not nescessarily there for her to stay short term.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Well I never...

When you build a house it is best that you build it on rock and not on sand.  Is Theresa May a rock on which a government can be built and Brexit negotiations fronted - or is she now sand?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2017)

gmhubble said:



			We have all seen Tin Cup

This is where she turns round and drives it down the road



Click to expand...

Mmm, but doesn't he end up putting it in the water over and over again? (He does get Renee Russo though :thup


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Personally a crushing Tory majority is the worst I could have hoped for. 

You never know, this might lead to a bit more compromise instead of the current system that seems to just please one section of society but utterly appaul another. I know the money markets don't like that sort of thing. But it may lead to a slightly now pleasant society.
		
Click to expand...

which is why I was hopeful for May when she became PM.  But since then, with her stance on Brexit, she has seemed hell bent on driving a wedge between those who voted to Remain and those who voted to Leave - mouthing 'coming together' platitudes but almost guaranteed to create a riven, unstable and quite unpleasant society.

And sure enough that split becomes manifest in the support for the parties 43/41 - but with no landslide we can but hope that we have the basis of some compromise, not something that was on the minds of the 'you lost get over it' crowd.

The Tories under Cameron created this utter mess - and have now just exacerbated it under May.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			I like Ruth Davies.
		
Click to expand...

Would that be wee Ruthie Davidson?


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## IanM (Jun 9, 2017)

Clearly failed in this campaign... shell be gone within a month


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I'll say one thing, I don't think you would of ever seen Maggie wearing red on an election night.
It's irrelevant, unimportant trivia, but looking at TM stood there waiting for results in her constituencey you could easily think she was the Labour candidate.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Gok Wan...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Thanks for that Gok Wan...

Click to expand...

You're welcome, :whoo:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Looking forward to a Prime Ministerial statement from May at the door of Number 10.  Maybe have to wait a while.  The lady is a lame duck.


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## Fish (Jun 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would that be wee Ruthie Davidson?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, a passionate, articulate firecracker.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking forward to a Prime Ministerial statement from May at the door of Number 10.  Maybe have to wait a while.  The lady is a lame duck.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-humiliation-britain-tells-may-20170609129137


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Apologise you idiot, complete and utter denial, nobody is thinking strong and stable when they look at you!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Apologise you idiot, complete and utter denial, nobody is thinking strong and stable when they look at you!
		
Click to expand...

I missed the statement I think you refer to - but according to the LBC political commentator I'm listening to at the moment - it was 'unbelievable, shameless'

And as far as her having to seek a 'partnership' with the DUP - a hard-line hard-Brexit party - and one that is supported by Ulster Loyalist (paramilitary) groups.  Let's see the Daily Wail put multiple pages aside to attack her for seeking their support in the way it attacked Corbyn for past links with Irish Republican groups.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Like an Egyptian fish, I think she's in de Nile.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

And to be fair to her, we all know life moves a lot quicker nowadays.  So all TMay's done is gone into 'full on mad Thatcher at the end denial mode' after a few months in power. Instead of waiting the full 11 years that thatch did.


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## Reemul (Jun 9, 2017)

Thing is if the Tories form a coalition of some sort and May goes we are back to a leader that wasn't the leader for the election and people saying they never voted for you.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Thing is if the Tories form a coalition of some sort and May goes we are back to a leader that wasn't the leader for the election and people saying they never voted for you.
		
Click to expand...

If only they wouldn't have had bloody Brexit then none of this would have happened..... 

It's a fair point well made.  I think in that situation they will have to go back to the country for another election as the leader will have little to no credibility in the Brexit negotiations.  Or if it is Bojo, no credibility full stop.


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## IanM (Jun 9, 2017)

Bojo for PM ? Good grief no.  Utter wombat.  

But still more numerate and palatable than TroTski McTramp and his former Bird


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

IanM said:



			Bojo for PM ? Good grief no.  Utter wombat.  

But still more numerate and palatable than TroTski McTramp and his former Bird
		
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BoJo as PM - with Andrea Leadsom as Chancellor!!  Aaaaarrgghh!!!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 11, 2017)

I think this question has been definitively answered!

Not sure there is anyone looking like an obvious successor to dig us out of the hole we are now in....


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2017)

Just to clear things up a bit;

The Tories lost, by winning.
Labour won, by losing.
UKIP were battered because of the Brexit they'd already won.
SNP lost, but still won.
Scottish tories won, despite losing.
Teresa May was asked to stand down because she didn't win ................ but she won't because she did win, even though she lost!

I think we're in a bit of a mess!


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## Fish (Jun 11, 2017)

Slime said:



			Just to clear things up a bit;

The Tories lost, by winning.
Labour won, by losing.
UKIP were battered because of the Brexit they'd already won.
SNP lost, but still won.
Scottish tories won, despite losing.
Teresa May was asked to stand down because she didn't win ................ but she won't because she did win, even though she lost!

I think we're in a bit of a mess!
		
Click to expand...

&#128540;&#128514;&#128514;&#128077;


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Slime said:



			Just to clear things up a bit;

The Tories lost, by winning.
Labour won, by losing.
UKIP were battered because of the Brexit they'd already won.
SNP lost, but still won.
Scottish tories won, despite losing.
Teresa May was asked to stand down because she didn't win ................ but she won't because she did win, even though she lost!

I think we're in a bit of a mess!
		
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Also, Nicola thought she had but she hasn't.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 11, 2017)

Slime said:



			Just to clear things up a bit;

The Tories lost, by winning.
Labour won, by losing.
UKIP were battered because of the Brexit they'd already won.
SNP lost, but still won.
Scottish tories won, despite losing.
Teresa May was asked to stand down because she didn't win ................ but she won't because she did win, even though she lost!

I think we're in a bit of a mess!
		
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I think that just about sums it up! :rofl:


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2017)

Just watched Mays brief interview on SkyNews. Didn't answer a single question, didn't acknowledge any kind of problem with her authority, has she learned nothing at all? 
Think a little contrition might have helped her but no, act as if nothing has happened and answer no questions. Absolute liability for the Conservatives now.


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## larmen (Jun 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Just watched Mays brief interview on SkyNews. Didn't answer a single question, didn't acknowledge any kind of problem with her authority, has she learned nothing at all?
		
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Oh she learned all right. Remember, when she 1st started she visited Trump and Erdogan. She learned from the best.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Just watched Mays brief interview on SkyNews. Didn't answer a single question, didn't acknowledge any kind of problem with her authority, has she learned nothing at all? 
Think a little contrition might have helped her but no, act as if nothing has happened and answer no questions. Absolute liability for the Conservatives now.
		
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She expressed sorrow for the MPs that had lost their seats and hence jobs and livelihood - but I don't recall hearing her actually admitting and accepting responsibility for their losses.


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## JohnnyDee (Jun 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Just watched Mays brief interview on SkyNews. Didn't answer a single question, didn't acknowledge any kind of problem with her authority, has she learned nothing at all? 
Think a little contrition might have helped her but no, act as if nothing has happened and answer no questions. Absolute liability for the Conservatives now.
		
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Watched that Sky piece and had a feeling of deja vu but couldn't quite place what it was until I remembered.

The thing that threw me off the scent was that there was no John Sergeant saying, "I have the mic, it's here Prime Minister."


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

And so how are we doing with our dear Prime Minister?  Not hearing that much from her since the election are we - and no sign of her on any of the politics progs over the weekend.  Currently not scoring that highly on the '_doing well'_ scale for me.  Maybe she's focussing today on baking some buns for tea and buns with Arlene Foster.

Ah - just heard that she heading off to the HoC to meet with the 1922 Committee.  Good luck Theresa - oh to be a fly on the wall of that meeting.


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## User62651 (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so how are we doing with our dear Prime Minister?  Not hearing that much from her since the election are we - and no sign of her on any of the politics progs over the weekend.  Currently not scoring that highly on the '_doing well'_ scale for me.  Maybe she's focussing today on baking some buns for tea and buns with Arlene Foster.

Ah - *just heard that she heading off to the HoC to meet with the 1922 Committee.  Good luck Theresa - oh to be a fly on the wall of that meeting.*

Click to expand...

Expect some of Boris's lieutenants will ensure details are leaked negatively in order to weaken PM and ease his path into No.10. There will be over 300 Tory MPs there, she can't keep them all quiet!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2017)

The common theme today is that whilst the conservative mp's are fuming with TM apparently not one fancies another election. The public would be even more hacked off and the JC bandwagon may pick up even stronger. TM may survive a bit longer on that basis as we are into turkeys and Christmas territory.


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## User62651 (Jun 12, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The common theme today is that whilst the conservative mp's are fuming with TM apparently not one fancies another election. The public would be even more hacked off and the JC bandwagon may pick up even stronger. TM may survive a bit longer on that basis as we are into turkeys and Christmas territory.
		
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So in effect.......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

It's all very well expressing humility and stating that as she messed up she'll fix it - but how the heck does she do that? Has The Supreme Leader morphed in The Doctor, and so can jump in her Tardis to go back in time and do things differently?  I don't think so.  What is done is done.  

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's all very well expressing humility and stating that as she messed up she'll fix it - but how the heck does she do that? Has The Supreme Leader morphed in The Doctor, and so can jump in her Tardis to go back in time and do things differently?  I don't think so.  What is done is done.  

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...
		
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Bit childish.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit childish.
		
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Which bit is childish? Many nursery rhymes are allegorical.  You are not suggesting that I am equivalencing TM with Humpty Dumpty are you?  I hope not as that is really reading a bit much between the lines.  

I am simply saying that - like Humpty Dumpty - the Tory Party manifesto, majority and approach to Brexit are all lying broken - and not easily - if at all - put back together again by TM - no matter how much she might want to and tries.  I thought that that was rather obvious.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which bit is childish? Many nursery rhymes are allegorical.  You are not suggesting that I am equivalencing TM with Humpty Dumpty are you?  I hope not as that is really reading a bit much between the lines.  

I am simply saying that - like Humpty Dumpty - the Tory Party manifesto, majority and approach to Brexit are all lying broken - and not easily - if at all - put back together again by TM - no matter how much she might want to and tries.  I thought that that was rather obvious.

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's all very well expressing humility and stating that as she messed up she'll fix it - but how the heck does she do that? Has *The Supreme Leader morphed in The Doctor, and so can jump in her Tardis to go back in time and do things differently?*  I don't think so.  What is done is done.  

*Humpty Dumpty sat on a wal*l...
		
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These parts are a bit childish!  You would come over more credible if you stopped making these silly comments, they make you seem a bit paranoid.

Why not post like the blue highlighted text, you would then come across as a bit more credible.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 13, 2017)

Am I the only one thinking you two sound like Andrew Pierce and Kevin Maguire? You're a double act.


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## User62651 (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's all very well expressing humility and stating that as she messed up she'll fix it - but how the heck does she do that? Has The Supreme Leader morphed in The Doctor, and so can jump in her Tardis to go back in time and do things differently?  I don't think so.  What is done is done.  

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...
		
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Honourable thing to do would have been to go, she's now an ineffective dead weight re moving the country forward as her own cabinet, EU negotiators and the electorate are all thinking she's weak and her time is short so why listen to her catchphrases about anything. We need a new leader now for focus even if that has to be Boris.


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## Imurg (Jun 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Am I the only one thinking you two sound like Andrew Pierce and Kevin Maguire? You're a double act.
		
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I'm thinking Statler and Waldorf myself......


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2017)

Tweedle dum and Tweedle dummer more like

Give it a rest chaps


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit childish.
		
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A bit childish?

Really?

If it was Corbyn or Sturgeon he'd be shouting hallelujah!

More blinkers than the 3:30 at Kempton.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Tweedle dum and Tweedle dummer more like

Give it a rest chaps
		
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I am merely making an observation on May's stated intent to *fix* what she has broken.  

She cannot _fix _an election result; she cannot _fix _a lost parliamentary majority; she cannot _fix _ the fact that she depends upon a 3rd party for a majority to get her Queens Speech and other legislation through; she cannot _fix_ that she is going to have to scrap much of what she would have had in the Queens Speech; and she cannot _fix_ that her 12 point Plan for leaving the EU no longer has anywhere near majority support in the HoC.  

None of these things she can fix.  She cannot return them to as they were before.  She can perhaps mitigate the impact of them on herself and her party - but fixing?

So like Humpty Dumpty having fallen off the wall - all The Supreme Leader's horses and all The Supreme Leader's men cannot put Humpty together again.

It's allegory for goodness sake.


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## User62651 (Jun 16, 2017)

Say no more


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Isn't she doing well...yesterday...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rsonal-ratings-plummet-support-jeremy-corbyn/

_The Prime Minister's net favourability score has  fallen from +10 in April to -34 , which is the level the Labour leader was on in November last year. _


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Isn't she doing well...yesterday...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rsonal-ratings-plummet-support-jeremy-corbyn/

_The Prime Minister's net favourability score has  fallen from +10 in April to -34 , which is the level the Labour leader was on in November last year. _

Click to expand...

As bad as she is at least she remains way in front of Jeezer and his Marxist palls.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Say no more 

View attachment 22950

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Missed a pic of Corbers as leader of the Labour Party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Just now I'm listening to interview on Newsnight - Emily Matliss is struggling to keep her own anger under control with May's answers.  May is shameless - for God sake woman - go, just go. You are a disgrace.  

If you do not go you will be responsible for whatever happens.  The residents of North Kensington are spitting tacks and furious with you and your inept, feeble and uncaring government.  Any many, many across the country will be feeling the same.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			As bad as she is at least she remains way in front of Jeezer and his Marxist palls.
		
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I think things could be changing very significantly.


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just now I'm listening to interview on Newsnight - Emily Matliss is struggling to keep her own anger under control with May's answers.  May is shameless - for God sake woman - go, just go. You are a disgrace.  

If you do not go you will be responsible for whatever happens.  The residents of North Kensington are spitting tacks and furious with you and your inept, feeble and uncaring government.  Any many, many across the country will be feeling the same.
		
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Extreme and excessive vitriol when you have no idea what the women is thinking or her constraints.

Your posts on all the political threads see to have collapsed into the same repetitive points laced with emotive vitriol focusing on anyone deemed to be of a opinion not shared by yourself.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just now I'm listening to interview on Newsnight - Emily Matliss is struggling to keep her own anger under control with May's answers.  May is shameless - for God sake woman - go, just go. You are a disgrace.  

If you do not go you will be responsible for whatever happens.  The residents of North Kensington are spitting tacks and furious with you and your inept, feeble and uncaring government.  Any many, many across the country will be feeling the same.
		
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You want to blame anything you can on the Woman personally, what you are suggesting is anarchy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 17, 2017)

The idea that TM is linked in some way to the horrors in Kensington is a nonsense. Utter drivel. You can hammer her for many things but not that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 17, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You want to blame anything you can on the Woman personally, what you are suggesting is anarchy.
		
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I think you will find that Anarchy is what will happen if she stays in post.
The mood has changed and if May carries on with her thoughtless, uncaring blinkered approach the poor and the  'just about managing' folk of this country will kick off.

When someone is unsure about something we say to them 'what's the worst that can happen'.
Well the country is unsure and the 'worst that can happen' has just happened to them.
What follows will be pretty predictable IMVHO.

May is not responsible for Kensington but political dogma, inept councillors and their pressurized officers appear to be.


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## Slime (Jun 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you will find that Anarchy is what will happen if she stays in post.
The mood has changed and if May carries on with her thoughtless, uncaring blinkered approach the poor and the  'just about managing' folk of this country will kick off.

When someone is unsure about something we say to them '*what's the worst that can happen*'.
Well the country is unsure and the 'worst that can happen' has just happened to them.
What follows will be pretty predictable IMVHO.

May is not responsible for Kensington but political dogma, inept councillors and their pressurized officers appear to be.
		
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Jeremy Corbyn ........................ that's the worst that can happen!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The idea that TM is linked in some way to the horrors in Kensington is a nonsense. Utter drivel. You can hammer her for many things but not that.
		
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The point is that her response to the situation is being criticised by many, including an analysis piece in The Times today.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 17, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			The point is that her response to the situation is being criticised by many, including an analysis piece in The Times today.
		
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And the point is that is all some have focused on - they have and are using the disaster as means to score points against her it's disgraceful


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## Slime (Jun 17, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the point is that is all some have focused on - they have and are using the disaster as means to score points against her it's disgraceful
		
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I couldn't agree more .................... well said, it is utterly disgraceful.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 17, 2017)

Slime said:



			Jeremy Corbyn ........................ that's the worst that can happen!
		
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For you perhaps, but probably not for those who are in poverty, using foodbanks and with no shelter or decent housing.


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the point is that is all some have focused on - they have and are using the disaster as means to score points against her it's disgraceful
		
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I'm afraid you're right. Corbyn has been opportunistic and his/\labour's encouragement of the demonstrations with rent-a-mob shipped in is the worst side of politics.  His cynical 'visit' to the site and his 'blame' speech were in very bad taste.

Labour continues to promise everything without any expectation of having to deliver on these silly promises and this just encourages divisions in society; especially in areas like K&C.

The PM has not played it at all well- she is not an extrovert and this has enabled the media, both mainstream and social networks to infer this is uncaring which the Labour party and Unions are exploiting.

Hot summer weather often brings trouble with extremists/activists - this horrendous tragedy is just giving these publicity seeking idiots the excuse for the anarchy they want.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you will find that Anarchy is what will happen if she stays in post.
The mood has changed and if May carries on with her thoughtless, uncaring blinkered approach the poor and the  'just about managing' folk of this country will kick off.

When someone is unsure about something we say to them 'what's the worst that can happen'.
Well the country is unsure and the 'worst that can happen' has just happened to them.
What follows will be pretty predictable IMVHO.

May is not responsible for Kensington but political dogma, inept councillors and their pressurized officers appear to be.
		
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Absolute tosh as normal. Like her or not this is the woman who achieved with her party more votes in favour of her governing in a very long time. It's a disgrace that the noisy minority can stir up such utter bole and hatred against those that voted for her and her party.

We now have the media frothing at the mouth condemning her for going to the flat fire victims and stirring up the locals while the day before she was being condemned for not seeing those affected.

The normal culprits on here spewing their venom because they lost.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Absolute tosh as normal. Like her or not this is the woman who achieved with her party more votes in favour of her governing in a very long time. It's a disgrace that the noisy minority can stir up such utter bole and hatred against those that voted for her and her party.

We now have the media frothing at the mouth condemning her for going to the flat fire victims and stirring up the locals while the day before she was being condemned for not seeing those affected.

The normal culprits on here spewing their venom because they lost.
		
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So why was she forced to apologies to the tory MP's who lost their seats by the chairman of the 1922 committee? Why have 2 of her advisors resigned after the election? Why didn't Jeremy Hunt and his deputy know about the Dementia Tax being in the election manifesto. Why is Brexit in trouble? Why did she lose her parliamentry majority? Why is having to go into coalition with the DUP?

Nobody can argue with the votes achieved, but at what cost to us all.

Portillo has spoken out, The Times has spoken, Sky News has spoken out.

She is the leader of this Country and at times we expect them to lead, she has constantly been aloof from the man in the street during the GE and it's continued.

She needs to stand up and take control.

People are angry and frustrated and it's not just opposition parties.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So why was she forced to apologies to the tory MP's who lost their seats by the chairman of the 1922 committee? Why have 2 of her advisors resigned after the election? Why didn't Jeremy Hunt and his deputy know about the Dementia Tax being in the election manifesto. Why is Brexit in trouble? Why did she lose her parliamentry majority? Why is having to go into coalition with the DUP?

Nobody can argue with the votes achieved, but at what cost to us all.

Portillo has spoken out, The Times has spoken, Sky News has spoken out.

She is the leader of this Country and at times we expect them to lead, she has constantly been aloof from the man in the street during the GE and it's continued.

She needs to stand up and take control.

People are angry and frustrated and it's not just opposition parties.
		
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Nobody can argue that she is not making a right Horlicks of it but for the normal culprits to get on their high horse and make snide attacks on those that choose to vote for her and her party is disrespectful IMO. Shades of some of the losers from Article 50 and the GE thread.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody can argue that she is not making a right Horlicks of it but for the normal culprits to get on their high horse and make snide attacks on those that choose to vote for her and her party is disrespectful IMO. Shades of some of the losers from Article 50 and the GE thread.
		
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No issue with that, unfortunately, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" lot's of snide, high horse attacks came from those who voted for Brexit to those who you are calling losers, a lot of people have shown disrespect to both sides of the political divide.




Look at me getting all religious :rofl: :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So why was she forced to apologies to the tory MP's who lost their seats by the chairman of the 1922 committee? Why have 2 of her advisors resigned after the election? Why didn't Jeremy Hunt and his deputy know about the Dementia Tax being in the election manifesto. Why is Brexit in trouble? Why did she lose her parliamentry majority? Why is having to go into coalition with the DUP?

Nobody can argue with the votes achieved, but at what cost to us all.

Portillo has spoken out, The Times has spoken, Sky News has spoken out.

She is the leader of this Country and at times we expect them to lead, she has constantly been aloof from the man in the street during the GE and it's continued.

She needs to stand up and take control.

People are angry and frustrated and it's not just opposition parties.
		
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Portillo, Crikey!!  Sad man on a train has spoken.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You want to blame anything you can on the Woman personally, what you are suggesting is anarchy.
		
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Would that be the sort of anarchy that Leavers claim will happen if the will of the people is not fully delivered through the Brexit negotiations?  Well actually it might be.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would that be the sort of anarchy that Leavers claim will happen if the will of the people is not fully delivered through the Brexit negotiations?  Well actually it might be.
		
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No.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			The point is that her response to the situation is being criticised by many, including an analysis piece in The Times today.
		
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Would that be the Matthew Parris piece - excoriating - and he a Tory at that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the point is that is all some have focused on - they have and are using the disaster as means to score points against her it's disgraceful
		
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When people believe that nobody in their council or government is listening or cares - when they feel frustrated that their voice is small and insignificant - and when the evidence is there in front of their eyes that seems to prove their point - then it is incumbent upon those with a more powerful voice to speak up on their behalf.  Because if nobody does then the voice of the people will be loud and angry and will take things into it's own hands - and not in the way that anyone would actually want.  The people of North Kensington want opposition voices to be raised on their behalf NOW - it is not for us to tell them how they should feel and that that voice should not be raised.  That will only make the situation worse.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When people believe that nobody in their council or government is listening or cares - when they feel frustrated that their voice is small and insignificant - and when the evidence is there in front of their eyes that seems to prove their point - then it is incumbent upon those with a more powerful voice to speak up on their behalf.  Because if nobody does then the voice of the people will be loud and angry and will take things into it's own hands - and not in the way that anyone would actually want.  The people of North Kensington want opposition voices to be raised on their behalf NOW - it is not for us to tell them how they should feel and that that voice should not be raised.  That will only make the situation worse.
		
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Your post is full of untruths and outright nastiness.  You need to take a long look at what you have become.  It's not nice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is full of untruths and outright nastiness.  You need to take a long look at what you have become.  It's not nice.
		
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What is untrue? - what is nasty? - please identify.  Have you not been listening to the people of North Kensington since Thursday morning?  Ah - QED.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2017)

Is it OK to say that she did not handle the fire situation very well yet without being accused of being heartless, insensitive, making a political point etc etc.  As after all, the lady herself seems to agree...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2017)

For accuracy, there should be an 'as well' at the end of that headline.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For accuracy, there should be an 'as well' at the end of that headline.
		
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Accuracy, the wings blogger wants accuracy. Ironic.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2017)

I see the narrative in The Sunday Time is not great about how she is governing at the moment. Uncle Rupert must want her gone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2017)

May proposing no 2018 Queens speech........until then should we not just put all of our MP's and Westminster [hingers on] staff on a 3 day week and cut their salaries/expenses accordingly.

Or better still get rid of her and bring in a decent PM


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## Slime (Jun 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May proposing no 2018 Queens speech........until then should we not just put all of our MP's and Westminster [hingers on] staff on a 3 day week and cut their salaries/expenses accordingly.

Or better still get rid of her and *bring in a decent PM*

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Are you suggesting Corbyn?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2017)

Slime said:



			Are you suggesting Corbyn?
		
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I would hope the Tory party has some decent alternatives. Or perhaps not the way they do not just get rid of her now when everyone knows she will not lead them into the next election.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jun 18, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would hope the Tory party has some decent alternatives. Or perhaps not the way they do not just get rid of her now when everyone knows she will not lead them into the next election.
		
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Boris, Rudd, Gove, Hammond? Not a great list so far.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May proposing no 2018 Queens speech........until then should we not just put all of our MP's and Westminster [hingers on] staff on a 3 day week and cut their salaries/expenses accordingly.

Or better still get rid of her and bring in a decent PM
		
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Not the first time and won't be the last but your knowledge of politics is as dire as it is with history, geography and maths.


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## Imurg (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm actually very disappointed that none of our Forum Politicians have tried standing for Parliament as many seem to know exactly what a PM should and shouldn't be doing, have detailed insights into how to run a Country, deal with all the day to day shenanigans that  happen on a regular basis.
As has been said in threads about golf club committees...if you want to change things, get yourself elected - if not, give it a rest....


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Boris, Rudd, Gove, Hammond? Not a great list so far.
		
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I'd say jump that generation as they are too tainted.


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## shagster (Jun 19, 2017)

So all the Tory/ukip voters think she is doing a good job are even more blinkered than the corbyn voters you are slagging off. She has achieved failure
Having a majority and losing that through vanity or greed in a position of certain strength to go begging for support to verging on a calamity which ever way the right wing want to spin it. Yes a high number of votes but still a failure. Any Tory leader with a half decent idea how to communicate and listen would have got a landslide.  
She will not fight another election and will be lucky to see the year out. 
All the daily mail readers keep bleating about corbyn but he can not do a worse job than may. 
All the comments a few months ago just show how out of touch they were with reality. 
I still haven't seen any where disproving that the Labour Party manifesto would not work, but at least they had one.
To say that Corbyn was making capital from the fire is being a total knob, he went there because he actually cared about the situation.
There are some silly comments being made at the moment but may did not comprehend the seriousness of the situation and this just shows how far out of touch she is with the reality of day to day life of people in the situation that the victims find them selves in. 
Only my opinion of course but similar to a lot of other views I have read


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## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

It's only going to get tougher for her with this mornings events being unfolded as Corbyn was on site immediately and stayed most of the night in the community. 

May is on a hiding to nothing with the cards stacked against her, but to be honest I think it would be the same for anyone who held the PM seat at present.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

shagster said:



			So all the Tory/ukip voters think she is doing a good job are even more blinkered than the corbyn voters you are slagging off. She has achieved failure
Having a majority and losing that through vanity or greed in a position of certain strength to go begging for support to verging on a calamity which ever way the right wing want to spin it. Yes a high number of votes but still a failure. Any Tory leader with a half decent idea how to communicate and listen would have got a landslide.  
She will not fight another election and will be lucky to see the year out. 
All the daily mail readers keep bleating about corbyn but he can not do a worse job than may. 
All the comments a few months ago just show how out of touch they were with reality. 
I still haven't seen any where disproving that the Labour Party manifesto would not work, but at least they had one.
To say that Corbyn was making capital from the fire is being a total knob, he went there because he actually cared about the situation.
There are some silly comments being made at the moment but may did not comprehend the seriousness of the situation and this just shows how far out of touch she is with the reality of day to day life of people in the situation that the victims find them selves in. 
Only my opinion of course but similar to a lot of other views I have read
		
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To be honest I don't think any of the Tory voters on here do think she is doing a good job. So they just have a go at Corbyn as a deflection technique to prevent them having to admit it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

Fish said:



			It's only going to get tougher for her with this mornings events being unfolded as Corbyn was on site immediately and stayed most of the night in the community. 

May is on a hiding to nothing with the cards stacked against her, but to be honest I think it would be the same for anyone who held the PM seat at present.
		
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Possibly the same for any one that made one of the worst political gambles ever, who shows very little leadership in most situations, who has lost the confidence of their party and who just can not connect with a large part of the public. 

As you can tell, I think some of it is her fault...


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest I don't think any of the Tory voters on here do think she is doing a good job. So they just have a go at Corbyn as a deflection technique to prevent them having to admit it.
		
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Your right on the first bit, but on the second, I think it was mostly Labour supporters who were having a pop at Corbyn before the election but now they hail him as the all conquering hero even though --------- he lost.


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2017)

Fish said:



			It's only going to get tougher for her with this mornings events being unfolded as Corbyn was on site immediately and stayed most of the night in the community. 

May is on a hiding to nothing with the cards stacked against her, but to be honest I think it would be the same for anyone who held the PM seat at present.
		
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He is the constituency MP so I would expect him to be on site immediately.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			He is the constituency MP so I would expect him to be on site immediately.
		
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No he isnt, he is the MP for Islington, which is the other side of the city

I suspect the MP is the labour one who beat the tories by 20 votes, causing 3 recounts along the way


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## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			He is the constituency MP so I would expect him to be on site immediately.
		
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 apparently he only lives a few streets away, however, May or someone in Government would have got a call also at the time and you'd thought that if not May herself at the very least a representative would be sent to the area?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2017)

Slime said:



			Are you suggesting Corbyn?
		
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Anyone who is better than May....that should not be too tall an order.
Perhaps a bit difficult for the Tories, perhaps they could bring back Ken Clarke.

BTW no one seems to have answered the situation of employing 600+ MP's, plus thousands of support staff who will have a much reduced workload for the next two years.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Your right on the first bit, but on the second, I think it was mostly Labour supporters who were having a pop at Corbyn before the election but now they hail *him as the all conquering hero even though --------- he lost*.
		
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Au contraire, I think he has done a lot better than expected, especially with the ridiculous press coverage against him by the leading papers. Also he has proven that the country does not mind a bit of socialism and does care about our public services. But he was helped by TMay and the Tories running an unbelievably poor election campaign that took the electorate for granted. And I think if the Tories had a half competent leader who was a bit less 'ghost of Thatcher' and a manifesto that showed a bit of hope for the future instead of meaningless slogans then they would have romped it and Corbyn would be gone by now. Still, if my auntie had a.......


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2017)

Fish said:



			apparently he only lives a few streets away, however, May or someone in Government would have got a call also at the time and you'd thought that if not May herself at the very least a representative would be sent to the area?
		
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Wrong, He lives in his constituency, Islington North , which is few miles away , near the Arsenal Footy Ground


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW no one seems to have answered the situation of employing 600+ MP's, plus thousands of support staff who will have a much reduced workload for the next two years.
		
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Arent you forgetting a little subject called Brexit?


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## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Wrong, He lives in his constituency, Islington North , which is few miles away , near the Arsenal Footy Ground
		
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Well the CEO of that Muslim Welfare House is a liar then and was using his interview early this morning for his own agenda, as he clearly stated that Corbyn was not only his local MP but only lived a few streets away and had been at the mosque supporting everyone all night.  I'll be honest I thought it a bit stretched at the time as the media would have got a whiff of that during the night, but didn't!

That CEO turned an atrocity into a political platform which is disgusting if Corbyn was never there?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2017)

Fish said:



			Well the CEO of that Muslim Welfare House is a liar then and was using his interview early this morning for his own agenda, as he clearly stated that Corbyn was not only his local MP but only lived a few streets away and had been at the mosque supporting everyone all night.  I'll be honest I thought it a bit stretched at the time as the media would have got a whiff of that during the night, but didn't!

That CEO turned an atrocity into a political platform which is disgusting if Corbyn was never there?
		
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Apologies crossed lines, Thought we were discussing the Fire, not the incident last night.

The incident last night was on Corbyns doorstep, so apologies for jumping in


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 19, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Apologies crossed lines,* Thought we were discussing the Fire,* not the incident last night.

The incident last night was on Corbyns doorstep, so apologies for jumping in
		
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Can you stay on topic please. :thup:

This is the slagging off Theresa May for not being up to being PM thread, not the slagging off Theresa May for not meeting the public at the Grenfell Tower fire thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for Brexit thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for not going to the mosque thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for everything she has done or continues to do thread.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you stay on topic please. :thup:

This is the slagging off Theresa May for not being up to being PM thread, not the slagging off Theresa May for not meeting the public at the Grenfell Tower fire thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for Brexit thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for not going to the mosque thread, or the slagging off Theresa May for everything she has done or continues to do thread.
		
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You can see how easy it is to get confused.


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Apologies crossed lines, Thought we were discussing the Fire, not the incident last night.

The incident last night was on Corbyns doorstep, so apologies for jumping in
		
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It's the Meds


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You can see how easy it is to get confused.
		
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Yes it is...like the confused priorities of K&C Council and the rather confused logic of our dear Leader.  

On which note I shall drop off from worrying about the spiritual and medical health of Theresa May as she struggles with her struggles.  Best not to upset others here any more than they already are (upset with me for whanging on).

But I forgive her for all her faults and mis-steps (because I can). There is no point in me getting further irritated with her and the machinations of her party - I've got my own issues to deal with.


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## Slime (Jun 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes it is...like the confused priorities of K&C Council and the rather confused logic of our dear Leader.  

On which note I shall drop off from worrying about the spiritual and medical health of Theresa May as she struggles with her struggles.  Best not to upset others here any more than they already are (upset with me for whanging on).

But I forgive her for all her faults and mis-steps (because I can). There is no point in me getting further irritated with her and the machinations of her party - I've got my own issues to deal with.
		
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Could you be any more patronising?
You really do make yourself look childish at times, such a shame.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2017)

Slime said:



			Could you be any more patronising?
You really do make yourself look childish at times, such a shame.
		
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I'm off as it seems that anything I say - no matter what - winds others up (QED) and so as I seem to be the problem I'm out of this discussion.  I can't be bothered trying to explain myself further, and those who are fed up with me trying to do so will no doubt breath a great sigh of relief.


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## Imurg (Jun 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			It's the lack of Meds
		
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Fixed that for ya!&#128512;


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## drdel (Jun 19, 2017)

I guess I'd be popular if I promised you all a free trip to Carnoustie. 

Of course I might need to aplogise later when I found there was not enough cash in the kitty. The PM is running a government JC is has plenty of time to make promises now in the knowledge that he can blame someone else when/if the kitty can't afford to deliver the promises.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2017)

You'd be more popular, in my house anyway, if it was a free trip to Sunningdale or Wentworth. I'm not a big fan of links courses :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2017)

drdel said:



			I guess I'd be popular if I promised you all a free trip to Carnoustie. 

Of course I might need to aplogise later when I found there was not enough cash in the kitty. The PM is running a government JC is has plenty of time to make promises now in the knowledge that he can blame someone else when/if the kitty can't afford to deliver the promises.
		
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You are right, the PM is running a Government.
The bit you left out was, she is making a right mucking fuddle of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2017)

The Supreme Leader doesn't seem to be doing so well these days - what on earth is she thinking of my seeking support from all and sundry - unless that is she thinks it's a sneaky ploy to ensnare the opposition that nobody will rumble.  And to the disMay of her fans, her picture has been removed from the front page of the Conservative Party Website - nice big picture of the Union Flag though.  No longer the new Iron Lady?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Supreme Leader doesn't seem to be doing so well these days - what on earth is she thinking of my seeking support from all and sundry - unless that is she thinks it's a sneaky ploy to ensnare the opposition that nobody will rumble.  And to the disMay of her fans, her picture has been removed from the front page of the Conservative Party Website - nice big picture of the Union Flag though.  No longer the new Iron Lady?
		
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Are you fully intending on dragging up all the old political threads ?!? Just when all the political nonsense on this forum had died down


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you fully intending on dragging up all the old political threads ?!? Just when all the political nonsense on this forum had died down
		
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I think the question about Theresa May continues as her premiership develops and debate around her future continues to swirl around.  Better to pick up old stuff than raise new posts I'd have thought.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 13, 2017)

Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Plenty have been complaining about her not taking into account views from other parties - lots of noise from the SNP about being ignored over Brexit. So now she has asked other parties and she's still wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Plenty have been complaining about her not taking into account views from other parties - lots of noise from the SNP about being ignored over Brexit. So now she has asked other parties and she's still wrong.
		
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Well she maybe should have thought things through a bit more before she decided to try and obliterate the Labour Party in a General Election.

We shall see how she fares over the coming weeks and months with the Tory Grandees


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## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2017)

All those false promises from SILH perhaps he should take up politics.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Plenty have been complaining about her not taking into account views from other parties - lots of noise from the SNP about being ignored over Brexit. So now she has asked other parties and she's still wrong.
		
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There is a huge difference between 'asking' and 'taking notice/action/agreement.

Sadly I think her bonfire  building new best buddies will see her through
But, 25 years from now all of 'us' will still remember whom she chose to help her.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Plenty have been complaining about her not taking into account views from other parties - lots of noise from the SNP about being ignored over Brexit. So now she has asked other parties and she's still wrong.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well she maybe should have thought things through a bit more before she decided to try and obliterate the Labour Party in a General Election.

We shall see how she fares over the coming weeks and months with the Tory Grandees
		
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You squealed long and hard about no cross party committee about Brexit, yet when the Tories call for one you decry it.

Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You squealed long and hard about no cross party committee about Brexit, yet when the Tories call for one you decry it.

Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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His 'Cross Party' only includes Labour, SNP, Greens and LDs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2017)

'WE' never really embraced the EU, there is that royal WEEEE again.
Not in my name Mrs.


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## drdel (Sep 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'WE' never really embraced the EU, there is that royal WEEEE again.
Not in my name Mrs.
		
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EU never embraced the UK. We obeyed their rules, unlike other members, they wanted our cash and that's about it.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 22, 2017)

drdel said:



			EU never embraced the UK. We obeyed their rules, unlike other members, they wanted our cash and that's about it.
		
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We've been dragged kicking and screaming all the way and have any number of opt outs as we have always tried to have our cake and eat it. The EU would be much better, and we'd be much better for it if we'd been a whole-hearted member.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'WE' never really embraced the EU, there is that royal WEEEE again.
Not in my name Mrs.
		
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Mine neither - not in my name Theresa May.  I'll let Brexiteers critique her performance in detail - I just didn't think it was the barnstorming statement of principles that many Brexiteers were hoping for.  And not heard too many plaudits heading her way other than from couple of sycophantic Tory MPs toeing her line.  But I will not comment more.


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2017)

drdel said:



			EU never embraced the UK. We obeyed their rules, unlike other members, they wanted our cash and that's about it.
		
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It just never felt like a level playing field, it was a Germany and France club and they could ignore any rules the wanted but we weren't allowed to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2017)

chrisd said:



			It just never felt like a level playing field, it was a Germany and France club and they could ignore any rules the wanted but we weren't allowed to.
		
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So we grabbed our ball and ran home in tears shouting 'it's just not fair'.

The UK ignored the EU currency 'rules' BTW.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So we grabbed our ball and ran home in tears shouting 'it's just not fair'.
		
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Or alternatively (making it golf relevant) the club that we had joined had morphed into something that we no longer wished to be a member of. The club had made changes without consulting the membership (EU citizens rather than EU governments) and had forced through changes that the membership didn't want or like. So we decided not to renew our membership.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or alternatively (making it golf relevant) the club that we had joined had morphed into something that we no longer wished to be a member of. The club had made changes without consulting the membership (EU citizens rather than EU governments) and had forced through changes that the membership didn't want or like. So we decided not to renew our membership.
		
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So we're now going to play at the local muni and look enviously in at the better facilities in the old club and miss out on the benefits of interclub competitions and reduced green fees at clubs in the area....


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			So we're now going to play at the local muni and look enviously in at the better facilities in the old club and miss out on the benefits of interclub competitions and reduced green fees at clubs in the area.... 

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Quite brilliant:whoo:


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2017)

I can see these two 'transitional' years evolving into a further two years then another two years ad infinitum...


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			So we're now going to play at the local muni and look enviously in at the better facilities in the old club and miss out on the benefits of interclub competitions and reduced green fees at clubs in the area.... 

Click to expand...

Quite possibly. Or.......we're going to build our own championship standard course that will be the envy of the world and those that are still chomping it round our old course will be looking enviously over the fence at our new club that has no membership fees, a sparkling new club house, immaculate fairways and perfect greens. :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			I can see these two 'transitional' years evolving into a further two years then another two years ad infinitum...
		
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Yes, 5 years down the line, still nothing much happening and an election in the offing.
At last it is beginning to look hopeful for the UK.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, 5 years down the line, still nothing much happening and an election in the offing.
At last it is beginning to look hopeful for the UK.
		
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Not what was voted for though....


Yep, lets just carry on with the race to the bottom... Superb :angry::angry:


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Quite possibly. Or.......we're going to build our own championship standard course that will be the envy of the world and those that are still chomping it round our old course will be looking enviously over the fence at our new club that has no membership fees, a sparkling new club house, immaculate fairways and perfect greens. :thup:
		
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And we'll spend the years playing with ourselves, denying outsiders the chance of a game and watching the wider world of golf go from strength to strength while we dwindle into an anachronistic relic of a time long gone....


It's fun this! :rofl:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



*And we'll spend the years playing with ourselves*, denying outsiders the chance of a game and watching the wider world of golf go from strength to strength while we dwindle into an anachronistic relic of a time long gone....


It's fun this! :rofl:
		
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RE: the bit in bold - It's a bit harsh to suggest that those who voted leave are all......... (infraction avoided by ending that sentence there) 

Or we'll be inviting those from around the world to form new ties with our club and be offering associate memberships with reciprocal agreements to many other world countries rather than just the other 27 countries that are on our favourites list.

I agree this is a good game. :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2017)

Should've known I couldn't slip a subtle dig in there!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2017)

We have never really embraced Theresa May as a leader of the UK.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2017)

You embrace her if you want to but there's something of the night about her. I get the feeling that you might have two puncture wounds in your neck and a lack of blood in your body if you do. Much better to take the Boris Johnson position of standing right behind her giving her a pat on the back. It's far easier to stab her in the back from there.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 23, 2017)

chrisd said:



			It just never felt like a level playing field, it was a Germany and France club and they could ignore any rules the wanted but we weren't allowed to.
		
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Actually the UK, Germany and France virtually ran the EU, or at least you needed their agreement for any major policies to happen.  We had plenty of dispensations and opt outs that if any other country had, we would be spitting feathers and claiming it is so unfair.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			You embrace her if you want to but there's something of the night about her. I get the feeling that you might have two puncture wounds in your neck and a lack of blood in your body if you do. Much better to take the Boris Johnson position of standing right behind her giving her a pat on the back. It's far easier to stab her in the back from there.
		
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I'd take her over MaggieT any day of the week...

Having said that if Mrs T was in charge now... Barnier, Juncker et al would be queuing up to kiss her butt cheeks rather than the other way round..


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 23, 2017)

I thought in the circumstances she has managed to get herself into, the speech wasn't too bad.  Just about 18 months too late. I see it upset Farage which by default in my book is a good thing. 

If she had made this at the start of the process, kissed the EUs ass a bit as that is what they like then I feel we would be much further on in our negotiations. Instead, to pander to the hardcore brexiters we tried the hard man approach, no compromise option and consequently we have not got very far.  

So she is trying to make the most of an almost impossible situation as in addition to negotiating the best deal with the EU, she is having to play petty politics within the Tory party to stop the vultures circling. We will probably end up with a compromise that will in all truth please no one. Too soft for the hard brexiters, too much work and money spent to effectively get a poorer version of what we already had for the remainers.


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## Slime (Sep 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, 5 years down the line, still nothing much happening and an election in the offing.
*At last it is beginning to look hopeful for the UK.*

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In *your* humble opinion.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2017)

Who'd have thought the remainers would turn this into another anti Brexit thread.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2017)

Slime said:



			In *your* humble opinion.
		
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I'll have you know that there is nothing humble about my opinion.:lol:


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## Slime (Sep 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'll have you know that there is nothing humble about my opinion.:lol:
		
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Sorry, my mistake :thup:.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Who'd have thought the remainers would turn this into another anti Brexit thread.
		
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Sorry forgot we're not allowed to be against brexit any more, even in jest! Sad state of affairs:


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sorry forgot we're not allowed to be against brexit any more, even in jest! Sad state of affairs:
		
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It's the internet, nothing is real and no state of affairs are sad.

It was unfortunate that mods decided to close the other thread on the day that major speeches were given.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 23, 2017)

Not going to comment on the content of the speech as that is for the Art50 thread when it is reopened - but I thought her general tone and demeanour when giving it were not great - and actually rather uncomfortably ingratiating towards the EU at times.  I just think that just can't deliver a speech with real conviction - she just doesn't sound authentic - as if she's having to act the role of PM.  And for me it just doesn't work - and I just can't see any senior EU politician or negotiator being in the slightest bit convinced when she puts on the 'tough speaking' growl.  

I am not sure who she felt she was speaking to yesterday - was it actually Hammond, Davis and Johnson ion the front row?  Were they lapping it up?  I didn't actually see too many happy chappy smiles?  Was she laying down the law?

And Dave Davis is not really any more convincing;  he may speak well but it is always too genial, jovial uncle David for me - as if he feels he has to play the friendly face of the UK - with May somehow supposed to be the 'tough face'.  

And there was me having relatively decent hopes for her back in the day when she became PM - though maybe it _was_ just for the day.


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## dewsweeper (Sep 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Should've known I couldn't slip a subtle dig in there! 

Click to expand...

Subtle, you.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			It's the internet, nothing is real and no state of affairs are sad.
*
It was unfortunate that mods decided to close the other thread on the day that major speeches were given*.
		
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To be fair to the mods it had degenerated into the same points being made over and over again and people desperately trying to find ways to be offended to satisfy personal vendettas by resorting to pedantry.

_Did you call me stupid??
No
What did you call me?
Nothing?
Did you imply I am stupid??
No
What did say?
I said Codpiece face
What did you say??
I said Codpiece face.......
_
It was at the level that if I would have seen it on my 11 year olds whatsapp thread I would have told her to grow up.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mine neither - not in my name Theresa May.  I'll let Brexiteers critique her performance in detail - I just didn't think it was the barnstorming statement of principles that many Brexiteers were hoping for.  And not heard too many plaudits heading her way other than from couple of sycophantic Tory MPs toeing her line.  But I will not comment more.
		
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That was a fail then


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2017)

I see the front of The Sunday Times is reporting the big 4 in the cabinet are all maneuvering to take over.

Still, at least all this government infighting is not occurring at one of the mos important political moments in our nation for many decades. That's all good then....


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the front of The Sunday Times is reporting the big 4 in the cabinet are all maneuvering to take over.

Still, at least all this government infighting is not occurring at one of the mos important political moments in our nation for many decades. That's all good then....
		
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Carpetbaggers putting their own selfish egos ahead of the good of the nation........true to type, but we did collectively elect them, did we not.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still, at least all this government infighting is not occurring at one of the mos important political moments in our nation for many decades. That's all good then....
		
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That's a cheap shot. Pretty much every govt of every flavour has had internal strife, the timing of which has always been irrelevant.


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			That's a cheap shot. Pretty much every govt of every flavour has had internal strife, the timing of which has always been irrelevant.
		
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People seem to conveniently forget how many have jumped ship out of Jeezers shadow cabinet


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			That's a cheap shot. Pretty much every govt of every flavour has had internal strife, the timing of which has always been irrelevant.
		
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Disagree, so they get a free pass and the nation has to accept the fact that all parties have internal squabbles over rides the need for a coherent and unified policy on one of the most important calls a government has had to make in 50 odd years?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			People seem to conveniently forget how many have jumped ship out of Jeezers shadow cabinet
		
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What ever Labour say is irrelevant, they are not in power, with Jezzer in charge they never will be. 

 I want my government to have a clear policy, to have a workable policy and unified agreement to take us forward into a brave new Brexit world.  If you are willing to not worry about that and instead moan about what a mostly irrelevant  opposition say then I feel you are missing the point.  The Tories are in power, they need to step up to the plate, show us what they have got. They are driving the ship, they are calling the shots. Who called the referendum, who triggered article 50 , who called a snap election, who is asking for a 2 year extension now?


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## User62651 (Sep 24, 2017)

read this on twitter earlier re treatment of May by her own party - good analogy I thought.

_"It's like the scene in a Bruce Willis movie where the terrorist that is already shot gets used as a human sandbag to help him get from point A to point B. That is what the party is doing with her at the moment."_


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			...
 I want my government to have a clear policy, to have a workable policy and unified agreement to take us forward into a brave new Brexit world....
		
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Then I'm afraid you are whistling in the wind! And would be whether it's this government or any other!

They may be a clear 'general direction' that evolve into policy, but actual policy is still a 'work in progress' liable to change depending on how negotiations pan out!  

Workable? Well any *result* is actually 'workable', but detailed *policy* is likely to either be too woolly to really be termed 'policy' or too easily shot down by events at the negotiating table.

As for 'unified agreement'! Absolutely impossible! It'll be a result if it pleases a decent percentage of either MPs (of any/all flavours) or the electorate! 

So it'll be down to negotiation and communication to achieve - or at least convince folk of the achievement of - the best result possible!

At least May has shown that she IS actually open to modifying 'policy', something I've feared would not happen even when shown to be virtually impossible to achieve! I don't believe that's a weakness, even though some of the Press seem to want to push this as 'splits'!


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I want my government to have a clear policy, to have a workable policy and unified agreement to take us forward into a brave new Brexit world.  If you are willing to not worry about that and instead moan about what a mostly irrelevant  opposition say then I feel you are missing the point.  The Tories are in power, they need to step up to the plate, show us what they have got. They are driving the ship, they are calling the shots. Who called the referendum, who triggered article 50 , who called a snap election, who is asking for a 2 year extension now?
		
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No argument from me on this but I would prefer to go further and say it is the duty of all elected officials to assist in the smooth transition out of the EU instead of petty point scoring and assist the elected government in the process by not muddying the waters.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Disagree, so they get a free pass and the nation has to accept the fact that all parties have internal squabbles over rides the need for a coherent and unified policy on one of the most important calls a government has had to make in 50 odd years?
		
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I don't disagree with your sentiment but why post it in a sarcastic, cheap way? And I absolutely agree with your subsequent post about stepping up to the plate.

I thought Blair's latter days were bad and only got worse under Brown. I didn't think I'd see a govt so bad but I have now. Could Labour do better? I doubt it.


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## larmen (Sep 24, 2017)

Are people following the German election?
Merkel: The result is not the clear result we wanted, and we had etc take the concerns of the other voters into account.

The last UK GE?
May: Nothing has changed, we have a clear mandate, ... even if that means paying the Irish guys from the newly found money tree.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the front of The Sunday Times is reporting the big 4 in the cabinet are all maneuvering to take over.

Still, at least all this government infighting is not occurring at one of the mos important political moments in our nation for many decades. That's all good then....
		
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The four of them...engaged in a willy waving exercise whilst their boss struggles to keep afloat and find some path and navigate it to an unknown place that's called_ 'Out of the EU'_ - but at the moment is a place no-one can can agree about - where it is exactly what it's like and what will happen when we get there.  If these were not Tory Party favourites the right wing press would be calling them traitors.

And so I can only conclude that the plan I was assured was in place before Art50 was triggered - you know - that plan that the Tories were keeping close to their chest as they did't want to show all their cards before negotiations started - remember that one?  Yes well - I can only conclude that May has lost it - or the others have torn it up.  Because she is not giving the country (well me anyway) much in the way of a strong feeling that she knows what she is doing and where she wants to take us.  I ask - So where are we going Prime Minister?  to which comes comes the reply 'we are going to Brexit.  And where is Brexit Prime Minister - is it close to Nambia' 

I might giggle in a schadenfreudian way were this not all so blasted serious


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			No argument from me on this but I would prefer to go further and say it is the duty of all elected officials to assist in the smooth transition out of the EU instead of petty point scoring and assist the elected government in the process by not muddying the waters.
		
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I suppose it depends where the dividing line is between holding a government to account that wishes to ignore parliament and push forwards lots of legislation based on the say so of ministers and 'assisting in the smooth transition'.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I don't disagree with your sentiment but why post it in a sarcastic, cheap way? And I absolutely agree with your subsequent post about stepping up to the plate.

I thought Blair's latter days were bad and only got worse under Brown. I didn't think I'd see a govt so bad but I have now. Could Labour do better? I doubt it.
		
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Some people make a point through well reasoned argument, some through repeating the same thing over and over again and some through sarcasm and poor attempts at satire. Take your pick for which one I am.

I am now at the point where when I explain to my daughter why we are bequeathing such a cluster to her generation I want to say something a bit more than '_well Labour would not have done any better'.  
_
They probably would have not, Ms Abbott was again on the radio this morning failing to convince anyone of her competence or Labour's position.  But as I have said, they did not get themselves into this very fine mess, so whilst some possibly alternatives would be great, it isn't their problem. But it is the Tory parties, who from my viewpoint are making a right horlicks of it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			...But it is the Tory *parties*...
		
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:thup: :rofl:

Accidental I'm sure; but perfectly put!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the front of The Sunday Times is reporting the big 4 in the cabinet are all maneuvering to take over.

Still, at least all this government infighting is not occurring at one of the mos important political moments in our nation for many decades. That's all good then....
		
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Very frustrating as the tories, once again, appear to be putting self-interest above the good of the country.


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## Slime (Sep 25, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Very frustrating as the tories, once again, appear to be putting self-interest above the good of the country.
		
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They are politicians ...................... what do you expect?
You think Corbyn would be any different?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 25, 2017)

Slime said:



			They are politicians ...................... what do you expect?
You think Corbyn would be any different?
		
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I'm not a great fan of Corbyn but I don't think he's the bogeyman the right wing think he is. To answer your question, yes, I think he'd be very different.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2017)

German election followed what happened in Scotland.........12% swing to the far right.


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## User62651 (Sep 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			German election followed what happened in Scotland.........12% swing to the far right.
		
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Can you clarify - is far right and nationalism the same thing though? Are you saying in Germany it's a swing towards independence from the EU that has to be right wing, why not left leaning nationalists as well? Up here nationalism support is generally nearly all left of centre as the only viable right wing option (Tories) is very pro UK.


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## drdel (Sep 25, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm not a great fan of Corbyn but I don't think he's the bogeyman the right wing think he is. To answer your question, yes, I think he'd be very different.
		
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He's probably a nice guy however his past history suggests (to me) that he is prepared to change his views depending on the audience.

His speeches usually lack any detail which he rarely addresses. Undoubtedly his policies are expensive if not unaffordable but they are definitely popularistic which might be dangerous!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Can you clarify - is far right and nationalism the same thing though? Are you saying in Germany it's a swing towards independence from the EU that has to be right wing, why not left leaning nationalists as well? Up here nationalism support is generally nearly all left of centre as the only viable right wing option (Tories) is very pro UK.
		
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Some of the 'new' Tory politicians elected in Scotland seem to have some pretty far right 'old fashioned' views.
Mind you some only got in by dint of Labour voters supporting them on an anti independence stance.
All a bit of a mess really.
If SLAB voters had stuck to their party and not played Silly B's, May would not have had a majority

I think the German right wing vote is more like the  UKIP mentality and anti EU.
Total opposite to the SNP.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:





maxfli65 said:



			Can you clarify - is far right and nationalism the same thing though? Are you saying in Germany it's a swing towards independence from the EU that has to be right wing, why not left leaning nationalists as well? Up here nationalism support is generally nearly all left of centre as the only viable right wing option (Tories) is very pro UK.
		
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Some of the 'new' Tory politicians elected in Scotland seem to have some pretty far right 'old fashioned' views.
Mind you some only got in by dint of Labour voters supporting them on an anti independence stance.
All a bit of a mess really.
If SLAB voters had stuck to their party and not played Silly B's, May would not have had a majority

I think the German right wing vote is more like the  UKIP mentality and anti EU.
Total opposite to the SNP.
		
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Seems to me that it's simply votes for an anti-immigration party!

Not too dis-similar to UKIP a couple (or more) of UK elections ago!


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			He's probably a nice guy however his past history suggests (to me) that he is prepared to change his views depending on the audience.

His speeches usually lack any detail which he rarely addresses. *Undoubtedly his policies are expensive if not unaffordable* but they are definitely popularistic which might be dangerous!
		
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Although they were all costed out in their election manifesto. http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/Images/manifesto-2017/Funding Britain's Future.PDF 

Which is more than the Tories were. Including the magic money tree for the DUP.  

And as for changing views then I'd argue that of all politicians, his have stayed pretty stable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 25, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Although they were all costed out in their election manifesto. http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/Images/manifesto-2017/Funding Britain's Future.PDF 

Which is more than the Tories were. I*ncluding the magic money tree for the DUP.  *

And as for changing views then I'd argue that of all politicians, his have stayed pretty stable.
		
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...and so far Â£62m found for the British Virgin Islands (a good thing) despite us not being able to mine the Overseas Aid budget and all the fuss that was made over how not being able to do so would impact our ability to provide the aid.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that it's simply votes for an anti-immigration party!

Not too dis-similar to UKIP a couple (or more) of UK elections ago!
		
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And we all know where that led us in this country. 

Although I can't imagine Merkel calling a referendum on EU membership just to appease those people.


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## larmen (Sep 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that it's simply votes for an anti-immigration party!

Not too dis-similar to UKIP a couple (or more) of UK elections ago!
		
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I fear it is not as simple.

The original party founder was anti EU. But as the party grew they attracted more and more racists which changed the focus of the party so much that that guy left. What stayed behind is what looked more like a racist party than an anti EU party.

Just like UKIP didn't start as racist party, they just appealed to them. I don't think Nigel was a racist when he started the whole thing, but over time...


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm not a great fan of Corbyn but I don't think he's the bogeyman the right wing think he is. To answer your question, yes, I think he'd be very different.
		
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Very, very different.  Bogeymen are a thing of fiction, unfortunately he is real.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 30, 2017)

I see she has claimed that there were not enough debates in the last election.  After she refused to turn up to any.  And that the Tories were not properly prepared for it.  After she called the snap election when there was no need to.

Ladies and gentlemen, the words of the leader of our country in one of the most important times in recent history.


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see she has claimed that there were not enough debates in the last election.  After she refused to turn up to any.  And that the Tories were not properly prepared for it.  After she called the snap election when there was no need to.

Ladies and gentlemen, the words of the leader of our country in one of the most important times in recent history.
		
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If you read the transcript of what she said rather than how it is reported in The Sun you'll find a different slant.


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## User62651 (Oct 1, 2017)

Anyone watch her on Marr?
Not as easy watch, tense and defensive, desperately trying to deflect to Labour, wouldn't answer with any clarity on her own government's performance. When asked at the end was Boris unsackable, just another grimace and no answer, another deflection about all our jobs, not theirs. Seems to have learned little since the election debacle. Not camera or media friendly. Poor performance from a dead duck PM......imho.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 1, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone watch her on Marr?
Not as easy watch, tense and defensive, desperately trying to deflect to Labour, wouldn't answer with any clarity on her own government's performance. When asked at the end was Boris unsackable, just another grimace and no answer, another deflection about all our jobs, not theirs. Seems to have learned little since the election debacle. Not camera or media friendly. Poor performance from a dead duck PM......imho.

Click to expand...

Agree with that, trouble is that it is difficult to name another Tory party member who would do a better job.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 1, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone watch her on Marr?
Not as easy watch, tense and defensive, desperately trying to deflect to Labour, wouldn't answer with any clarity on her own government's performance. When asked at the end was Boris unsackable, just another grimace and no answer, another deflection about all our jobs, not theirs. Seems to have learned little since the election debacle. Not camera or media friendly. Poor performance from a dead duck PM......imho.

Click to expand...

DaveCam usually interviewed well...
But, that was the extent of his 'ability'...

What became of him... I wonder...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 1, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			DaveCam usually interviewed well...
But, that was the extent of his 'ability'...

What became of him... I wonder...
		
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We used to laugh at Cameron being interviewed, the more he lied the redder his face became.
May does the same but it is not so noticeable.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Agree with that, trouble is that it is difficult to name another Tory party member who would do a better job.
		
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Indeed, all the viable alternatives seem worse. Let's hope she can hold it together!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2017)

May's interview by Marr was a 'through the fingers' excruciating watch - seemed lost as to what she felt she could say and what she felt she couldn't - you could sense that Marr was almost desperate for her to allow herself to speak honestly...to release herself from the agony she seems to go through in interviews.  And I don't believe it is shyness - I believe it's that she just does not believe in what she feels she has t say - and because she is not sure of what she has to say - she sounds lost, evasive and totally unauthentic.

Sorry TM.  that was not good. 

After all - in one breath you were telling us that a period of transition - an implementation period - was critical for business so that it did not suffer too badly in March 2019 - yet minutes later you were telling us that No Deal is better than a bad Deal.  But PM...there is no smooth post March 2019 transition to a No Deal even if a No Deal transition process is put in place in the lead up to March 2019.  And if you do that you cannot be as fully focussed on getting the Deal you still want as you say the government will be - and if you start to prepare for No Deal then you are showing your hand to the EU in a very  big way.

Please do yourself a favour.  Dump them and then tell us the truth about the Brexit negotiations and the advice you are being given about life outside of the EU - especially in the case of a No Deal.

And just sack Johnson - it may cause your party serious issues but you need a cathartic moment and too many Tories don't seem to give a hoot about you - and that's putting it nicely.  You deserve it for putting up with such a nest of vipers and for trying to sell something that I think you believe will be an utter disaster.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed, all the viable alternatives seem worse. Let's hope she can hold it together!
		
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I have to agree. In the beginning I thought (hoped) she'd stand up to the plate. However I've become less impressed as time has gone on. She landed a posion chalice with Barnier simply using delaying tactics to hanging onto to his spot in the llimelight in order to get Juncker's job and the rest of the Tory 'big-wigs' palying silly beggars.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 1, 2017)

drdel said:



			I have to agree. In the beginning I thought (hoped) she'd stand up to the plate. However I've become less impressed as time has gone on. She landed a posion chalice with Barnier simply using delaying tactics to hanging onto to his spot in the llimelight in order to get Juncker's job and the rest of the Tory 'big-wigs' palying silly beggars.
		
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She did indeed land a poisoned chalice. I tend to agree with SILH that she's bought into seeing through the result of the referendum despite believing it's not a good move for the country. I can't decide if I'd rather she keeps on trying to make the best of a bad situation and minimise the damage or whether she should hand control over to one of the leave evangelists. Would a more gung-ho approach from a true believer result in a better outcome? Dunno.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			She did indeed land a poisoned chalice. I tend to agree with SILH that she's bought into seeing through the result of the referendum despite believing it's not a good move for the country. I can't decide if I'd rather she keeps on trying to make the best of a bad situation and minimise the damage or whether she should hand control over to one of the leave evangelists. Would a more gung-ho approach from a true believer result in a better outcome? Dunno.
		
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I like to think there is a deal to be had. 

Unfortunately IMO the EU is treating the UK to the same tactics it used on Greece and others. The 'system' doesn't handle disagreement and 'it' doesn't understand how to negotiate or have the capability because, while the nominated officials are said to be in charge, the 27 have vote so in theory everyone's in charge but actually no ONE is in command. 

Management by committee - its a mess which will only be solved if the UK agrees to whatever the EU dreams up.


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## User62651 (Oct 1, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			She did indeed land a poisoned chalice. I tend to agree with SILH that she's bought into seeing through the result of the referendum despite believing it's not a good move for the country. I can't decide if I'd rather she keeps on trying to make the best of a bad situation and minimise the damage or whether she should hand control over to one of the leave evangelists. *Would a more gung-ho approach from a true believer result in a better outcome? Dunno.*

Click to expand...

Agree - The longer this goes on you do have to wonder if a true leaver should take the reins.


Patterson on Sky raised a chuckle when he had 3 anxious younger tories lined up for interview, first Q - "So how do you solve a problem like Theresa?" .....cue sniggering all round.  
Lightened the mood...yet they still all towed the party line....... oh for some honesty and straight answers in politics.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2017)

It was painful to watch the Marr interview. She'd start a sentence and then change tack midway through. Whilst I thought some of her answers were decent, they weren't delivered with real conviction. Did she avoid some of the questions? Yes, just like any other politician. Did she avoid them as well as Corbyn did the week before? No, she just isn't as accomplished or confident.

What to do with Boris? He's going to mouth off whether he's in cabinet or not. Show some balls and kick him out of cabinet and let him bleat from the back benches. No doubt his supporters will push for her sacking, as they will anyway sometime soon, but at least she'll go down fighting if she's seen to be leading the cabinet.

A deal from Brussels? Barnier et all can't be seen to be giving something half decent to the UK just in case it leads to other countries wanting to be out but with a favourable deal. And that from Yanis Whatshisname the ex-Greek PM who thinks Brexit is bad.

As for the recent suggestion from the EU that the divorce bill has to be paid in full in one lump on top of the annual payments... either there's a compromise on that or No Deal is definitely the preferred option.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We used to laugh at Cameron being interviewed, the more he lied the redder his face became.
May does the same but it is not so noticeable.
		
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We use the far more reliable method of...

If a politicians lips are moving...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2017)

'It is never a mistake to give people the opportunity to vote' ....says May on the Marr programme.

Apart from Scotland or Catalonia that is.............if it is an expensive UK election that NO ONE wanted....yes, that's ok.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'It is never a mistake to give people the opportunity to vote' ....says May on the Marr programme.

Apart from Scotland or Catalonia that is.............if it is an expensive UK election that NO ONE wanted....yes, that's ok.
		
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On the Spanish thread you mentioned something about â€œpetty anti Scottishâ€ being mentioned in that thread 

So you once again prove yourself to be a hypocrite by bringing Catalonia into a thread about May our PM ( yes that includes you as well )

Scotland did have the opportunity to vote about 3 years ago in case that slipped your mind - remember is was supposed to be â€œonce in a generationâ€


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'It is never a mistake to give people the opportunity to vote' ....says May on the Marr programme.

Apart from Scotland or Catalonia that is.............if it is an expensive UK election that NO ONE wanted....yes, that's ok.
		
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Scotland did vote. The people of Scotland voted to remain part of the uk. It was a great exercise in democracy, right up until the SNP decided to break the Edinburgh agreement by not respecting the result.


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## IanM (Oct 2, 2017)

If you don't like the result pretend it didn't happen!


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2017)

IanM said:



			If you don't like the result pretend it didn't happen!
		
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The hypocrite method, better know as the SNP & DfT version of democracy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On the Spanish thread you mentioned something about â€œpetty anti Scottishâ€ being mentioned in that thread 

So you once again prove yourself to be a hypocrite by bringing Catalonia into a thread about May our PM ( yes that includes you as well )

Scotland did have the opportunity to vote about 3 years ago in case that slipped your mind - remember is was supposed to be â€œonce in a generationâ€
		
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Earlier this year she told Scotland that 'now was not the right time for Indyref2, or have you forgotten that.

Probably should have put it on the Spain's Shame thread but that seems to have been hijacked by geezers talking about English football.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Earlier this year she told Scotland that 'now was not the right time for Indyref2, or have you forgotten that.*

Probably should have put it on the Spain's Shame thread but that seems to have been hijacked by geezers talking about English football.

Click to expand...

And whats wrong with that ? 

Scotland had the Indy vote a couple years ago - or have you forgotten that ? Once in a generation remember - or have you forgotten that ?

Scotland voted to stay a part of the UK - or have you forgotten that ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And whats wrong with that ? 

Scotland had the Indy vote a couple years ago - or have you forgotten that ? Once in a generation remember - or have you forgotten that ?

Scotland voted to stay a part of the UK - or have you forgotten that ?
		
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Folks can change their minds - but it will take a mighty swing to the Pro side in the polls for another referendum to be discussed - never mind held.  Off the radar for ten years I'd say


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## User62651 (Oct 4, 2017)

Apologies if I've missed it but is there no mention of todays May performance - comedy/tragedy whatever? 
Political commentators can't quite believe it. Was almost like a comedy sketch. Calamity does seem to follow May about at the moment. Reminded me of Bob Fleming from the Fast Show.


Lost voice/hacking cough
Letters falling off slogans on stage
Handed her P45 live on stage 'from Boris' by comic/protester

Even if she did have a political message to give, no-one outside the diehard Tories will have noticed any of it.

Feeling a bit sorry for her tbh, she is our PM after all.

Tory HQ must be despairing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2017)

SNP pledge 50,000 new council homes in 4 years for 5.5m Scots
May's Tories pledge 25,000 in 5 years for 50m English


http://www.scottishhousingnews.com/15027/snps-local-campaign-pledge-to-boost-affordable-homes/#


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## Old Skier (Oct 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP pledge 50,000 new council homes in 4 years for 5.5m Scots
May's Tories pledge 25,000 in 5 years for 50m English


http://www.scottishhousingnews.com/15027/snps-local-campaign-pledge-to-boost-affordable-homes/#

Click to expand...

I understand why maths/history/geography arnt your strong points but simple reading seems to be an issue now. Try the BBC report


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I understand why maths/history/geography arnt your strong points but simple reading seems to be an issue now. Try the BBC report
		
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...s-41466961&link_location=live-reporting-story

Is it this one?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2017)

Not great today -  bit of a shambles in truth.  And espousing policies that Ed Miliband might have put forward - in fact I think he did propose some of them.  

She should have taken yesterday off rather than give 20+ speeches - and delegated as she needed to.  But being the vulnerable, and perhaps even fearful, control freak that she is she couldn't do that.


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## IanM (Oct 5, 2017)

...or has the guts to try to tough it out, even though clearly unwell?   Contrast with a Labour Shadow Minister who can't count, got found out and then disappeared for a week.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2017)

IanM said:



			...or has the guts to try to tough it out, even though clearly unwell?   Contrast with a Labour Shadow Minister who can't count, got found out and then disappeared for a week.
		
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No....she showed poor judgement.[once again]
Not what I look for in a leader

I think the lasting image of that conference will be the sign behind her.

Build a strong country............. when they can't even build a stage set that can last for an hour.


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## User62651 (Oct 5, 2017)

IanM said:



			...or has the guts to try to tough it out, even though clearly unwell?   Contrast with a Labour Shadow Minister who can't count, got found out and then disappeared for a week.
		
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Times and Telegraph not taking that view! Shortish odds of 9/4 being offered she's gone by Christmas.

As for Abbott yes she made a horlicks but so did Hammond and others, right wing press bias on that.


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## IanM (Oct 5, 2017)

9/4 is decent value.... I'd put it shorter than that!


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## Slime (Oct 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No....*she showed poor judgement.*[once again]*
Not what I look for in a leader*

I think the lasting image of that conference will be the sign behind her.

Build a strong country............. when they can't even build a stage set that can last for an hour.
		
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Let's face it Doon, whatever she does would 'Not be what you're looking for' in a leader.


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## Twire (Oct 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No....she showed poor judgement.[once again]
Not what I look for in a leader

I think the lasting image of that conference will be the sign behind her.

Build a strong country.............* when they can't even build a stage set that can last for an hour.*

Click to expand...


Well there you go, and I thought it was Exhibition contractors that built the stage sets.... I didn't realise they had to build them themselves.... everydays a school day :rofl:


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## Crazyface (Oct 5, 2017)

IanM said:



			...or has the guts to try to tough it out, even though clearly unwell?   *Contrast with a Labour Shadow Minister who can't count, got found out and then disappeared for a week.*

Click to expand...

And a rousing cheer from Labours conference. If that is the opposition TM has nowt to fear. 

As long as Labour have her in their front benches, I could be the Tory PM! LMAO


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2017)

Twire said:



			Well there you go, and I thought it was Exhibition contractors that built the stage sets.... I didn't realise they had to build them themselves.... everydays a school day :rofl:
		
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Really.........A big boy done it then ran away
Try telling that story to your boss next time you make a Horlicks of a plan.
Bottom line is they were responsible for staging the event from top to bottom. [inc security BTW]


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## Junior (Oct 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A deal from Brussels? Barnier et all can't be seen to be giving something half decent to the UK just in case it leads to other countries wanting to be out but with a favourable deal. And that from Yanis Whatshisname the ex-Greek PM who thinks Brexit is bad.
		
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The irony of Yanis is brilliant.  Greece , the country that falsified data and their financial statements to get into the EU and then borrowed ridiculous amounts money at stupidly low interest rates from EU banks. Then when the time came to pay it back decided that they couldn't and wouldn't.  Cue Germany, France and the UK having to bail them out......


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really.........A big boy done it then ran away
Try telling that story to your boss next time you make a Horlicks of a plan.
Bottom line is they were responsible for staging the event from top to bottom. [inc security BTW]
		
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And if it had been reported that Theresa May had been overseeing the contractors putting the signs up and building the stage you would have criticised her for that instead of her focusing on more important things. We all know that no matter what she (or the Tories) do, you will display your usual anti-English, anti-Tory, anti-Westminster bias to find fault with it.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 5, 2017)

Any reason Abbott gets so much more stick than most other politicians for errors? I find it a bit weird how if people want to deflect from the Conservatives, it's quite often a pop at her.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 5, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Any reason Abbott gets so much more stick than most other politicians for errors? I find it a bit weird how if people want to deflect from the Conservatives, it's quite often a pop at her.
		
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The reasons are clear


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2017)

Junior said:



			The irony of Yanis is brilliant.  Greece , the country that falsified data and their financial statements to get into the EU and then borrowed ridiculous amounts money at stupidly low interest rates from EU banks. Then when the time came to pay it back decided that they couldn't and wouldn't.  Cue Germany, France and the UK having to bail them out......
		
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This is of course be apocryphal - but my understanding was that - prior to the 2008 crash - Greece had proportionately the highest ownership level of BMWs in Europe.  Mind you many of them might have been wrecks - but I think it was a bit more than that.  Though probably nothing to do with Theresa May


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 5, 2017)

Still not sure why her protection unit didn't level the clown with the letter? Can you imagine that happening to Donald?

Symbolism is massive in politics and yesterday was not a good day for the PM.

With regards to Dianne Abbott, she is simply awful. She has a history of being awful and inept. Attacking her is like shooting fish in a barrel, every comment will hit home and so if you need to deflect then she is the go to lady. It is a bit like a football manager blaming the ref after a defeat.


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## Junior (Oct 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is of course be apocryphal - but my understanding was that - prior to the 2008 crash - Greece had proportionately the highest ownership level of BMWs in Europe.  Mind you many of them might have been wrecks - but I think it was a bit more than that.  Though probably nothing to do with Theresa May
		
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Regrettably, it's not fictitious.  A report commissioned by the EU shortly after condemned Greece for overstating the surplus of its reserves by about 3 billion Euro.  George Papandreou even acknowledged that the corruption of certain statistical bodies was a national disease.  

Anyway, apologies for diverting from the subject of the thread.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Still not sure why her protection unit didn't level the clown with the letter? Can you imagine that happening to Donald?

Symbolism is massive in politics and yesterday was not a good day for the PM.

With regards to Dianne Abbott, she is simply awful. She has a history of being awful and inept. Attacking her is like shooting fish in a barrel, every comment will hit home and so if you need to deflect then she is the go to lady. It is a bit like a football manager blaming the ref after a defeat.
		
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Yup - I agree - Tories deflecting concerns or difficult questions by pointing at Abbott is a waste of time as it signifies little.  She is but one person who may or may not have a part to play in some future Labour Government.  The questions the Tories face are real as they are the party IN government - or so we are led to believe.  When during may's speech yesterday the camera looked at the row of ministers sat there - you might well have thought - blimey - is that it - the Cabinet front bench - and there behind them grinning was Leadsom,


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## User62651 (Oct 5, 2017)

Not sure what a usual number would be but apprently less than 100 Tory MPs in attendance for May's speech yesterday of over 300. Can't imagine that back in Maggie's day.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Not sure what a usual number would be but apprently less than 100 Tory MPs in attendance for May's speech yesterday of over 300. Can't imagine that back in Maggie's day.
		
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Apparently that's the way of things - the Leader's Speech is a rallying call for the ground troops - and many MPs don't see the need to be 'rallied' and prefer to do their own thing at fringe meetings - or in the pub...


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 6, 2017)

Rude word alert.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-for-some-bizarre-fking-reason-20171006137117


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2017)

She is definitely a gonner now, Gove just gave her his full support.


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## Slime (Oct 6, 2017)

Oh, how I laughed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2017)

If those down south think Davidson is the answer http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/...lay=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017, take a shifty at the latest polls


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2017)

May - lots of aspiration and objectives - not hearing much in the way of solutions being offered to the EU - especially in respect of NI/EU border.  And simply telling the EU that the ball is in their court - when they simply say that's in ours - well what good is that going to do.  Stalemate.  If she's happy with that state of affairs then fine.  

Farage would have May pick up the ball and smash it straight at the EU - but that's not really going to help.  Not unless _No Deal_ is real and not a threat - and the EU are not going to believe it's real until they see us actually preparing for No Deal - and not just talking about it.  

Best start preparing - cliff edge approaching.  Let's hope the drop isn't too far; there are no rocks; and the tide is in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 10, 2017)

To be fair on this the UK have put forward a number of proposals which the EU are simply saying No to. Now there has to come a point where you say to the EU, "okay you don't like our suggestions, what do you have?" It is actually very easy to keep saying No but if they want to move this forward then they have to come up with something as well. As much as we are leaving, they want something from us leaving so it is not all about the UK.

I think the recent dropping in of the fact that the govt and civil service are preparing for a no deal situation is very calculated. We need the EU to understand that if they are trying to bluff us on this then we will meet their bluff. Business interests in the EU do not want us to leave with no deal so there will come a point when someone will be tapping on the shoulder of the EU negotiators and say, "times up, now you make a deal". That will only happen if we stand firm.

Bear in mind, I voted remain but if we are leaving we have to do it in a way that doesn't get us stuffed.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2017)

Make your mind up SiLH. In the Article 50 thread you posted that May had said that she had started the planning for leaving with no deal - and complaining that she hadn't explained to you in detail what that entailed. Now on this thread you're complaining that the EU won't believe that no deal is real unless we start preparing for it. Didn't Del C get blackballed for posting the same thing over and over again? Aren't you doing the same with your "cliff edge", "tide in", "no rocks" posts?


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## Twire (Oct 10, 2017)

Can we keep these threads separate. We already have an Article 50 thread and if they merge I will close one of them.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2017)

Twire said:



			Can we keep these threads separate. We already have an Article 50 thread and if they merge I will close one of them.
		
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To be fair, my reading is that most posts cite the PM, there's just one or two members who use the EU and Brexit to get at TM. 

The majority are playing the game.


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## Slime (Oct 10, 2017)

Twire said:



			Can we keep these threads separate. We already have an Article 50 thread and if they merge *I will close one of them.*

Click to expand...

Don't you mean both of them?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2017)

Poorest PM since Eden IMO surrounded by ministers that are complete incompetents.
This government has totally lost the plot.
Time for a general election I say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Poorest PM since Eden IMO surrounded by ministers that are complete incompetents.
This government has totally lost the plot.
Time for a general election I say.
		
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I actually feel rather sorry for her.  She sees what is coming; she sees the nest of conniving vipers she is in the middle of; she is held hostage by Paul Dacre; she has an incompetent Foreign Secretary that she feels she cannot sack - and feels she has a duty to the country to try and keep things together and to try and prevent Brexit from being an utter disaster.  And so as much as she'd love to say to Johnson, Gove, Davis, Fox, Cash et all - you sort it out I'm off - she feels she can't and so she won't.


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## IanM (Nov 9, 2017)

..deleted, as frankly it isn't worth it


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Poorest PM since Eden IMO surrounded by ministers that are complete incompetents.
This government has totally lost the plot.
Time for a general election I say.
		
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Could be worse on many counts. At least we don't have those parttimers from up north across the border.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Poorest PM since Eden IMO surrounded by ministers that are complete incompetents.
This government has totally lost the plot.
Time for a general election I say.
		
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Youâ€™re being far too kind to DC.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Youâ€™re being far too kind to DC.
		
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To be honest I thought he was OK until his deceitful 'Vow'. [and probably the pig incident as well]

Callaghan was probably third worse PM within that timeframe.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To be honest I thought he was OK until his deceitful 'Vow'. [and probably the pig incident as well]

Callaghan was probably third worse PM within that timeframe.
		
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No, the worst has yo be Gordon Brown. 

Truly a man promoted to his ultimate level of incompetence and only saves from total ignominy by Alistair Darling. 

IMO the latter handled the financial crisis of 2008 extremely well whilst Brown acted like the proverbial rabbit caught in the headlights.


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## User62651 (Nov 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Could be worse on many counts. At least *we* don't have those parttimers from up north across the border.
		
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Bit vague - Who is 'we'?  
Several former MSPs have become MPs and vice versa including several new Tory MPs, arguably saving May and UK Tories from losing power completely at June's GE.
I know you like your jibes at Doon but your veiled and not so veiled anti-Scottish insults are uncalled for. This is not the first time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit vague - Who is 'we'?  
Several former MSPs have become MPs and vice versa including several new Tory MPs, arguably saving May and UK Tories from losing power completely at June's GE.
I know you like your jibes at Doon but your veiled and not so veiled anti-Scottish insults are uncalled for. This is not the first time.
		
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Have you still to recognise the 'Royal Wee'. Used quite often on here by about three posters.
I think it means UKIP supporters but could be wrong.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit vague - Who is 'we'?  
Several former MSPs have become MPs and vice versa including several new Tory MPs, arguably saving May and UK Tories from losing power completely at June's GE.
I know you like your jibes at Doon but your veiled and not so veiled anti-Scottish insults are uncalled for. This is not the first time.
		
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I have no issues and have never insulted anyone. On the other hand your man's ultimate insult to those of us of a Welsh heritage was uncalled for. His continued attack on all things British will be met in kind and if anyone from north of the border feels insulted by it I apologise but I presume those of us South of the border just have to live with it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have you still to recognise the 'Royal Wee'. Used quite often on here by about three posters.
I think it means UKIP supporters but could be wrong.

Click to expand...

Fishing again troll


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit vague - Who is 'we'?  
Several former MSPs have become MPs and vice versa including several new Tory MPs, arguably saving May and UK Tories from losing power completely at June's GE.
I know you like your jibes at Doon but your veiled and not so veiled anti-Scottish insults are uncalled for. This is not the first time.
		
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Michael Fallon is Scottish - who'd have thunk it.  I guess it was his posh accent hiding his Scottishness...and that made him so popular (see also the unfathomable liking for Mogg Rees Jacob - he has to be good cos he's posh


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2017)

Yep its suprising how many people came south of the border for a different way of life.


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## IanM (Nov 9, 2017)

Reminds me of the saying..

"I thought I was working class till I visited (_insert town here!) _"


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## User62651 (Nov 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Yep its suprising how many people came south of the border for a different way of life.
		
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No more surprising than people moving north for a different way of life.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			No more surprising than people moving north for a different way of life.
		
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Oh dear, he just can't help himself with the anti Scots stuff can he.:lol:  
Roughly 650,000 folk move both ways so no surprise to folk who know.
Only difference being is the percentage per population for each country, which is totally different.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear, he just can't help himself with the anti Scots stuff can he.
		
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Strange stuff from the biggest anti UK man in the forum. 
Another false claim.  2 in 2 days not bad.

Anyway I thought you had me on ignore and wernt going to respond to my posts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2017)

May now fiddling and 'dating' the Repeal Bill - to protect herself loses some of my sympathy?  And she is misleading the public according to Lord Kerr ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-public-author-lord-kerr-claims-a8046676.html

But let's not even contemplate that...why even acknowledge the truth of the matter - after all Lord Kerr would say that wouldn't he and so his words of clarification and guidance can be dismissed. And they will be.

Because May knows that the Art50 process can be stopped - so what a cunning ploy - get the default leaving date built into the Repeal Bill and she can claim that parliament has formally approved the leaving date and so parliament cannot stop Article50 as it is currently able to do?

Maybe I misread and misunderstand.

Sorry Prime Minister - I am not impressed


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe I misunderstand.
		
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Possibly but as she was big on the Remain side, perhaps she feels she needs to convince the democratic majority that she is serious and by giving the HC it would be time for others to either put up or shut up.

Interesting development.


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## IanM (Nov 10, 2017)

Quoting my learned colleague on another thread... "_We have a divided country because we have had a referendum that has split opinion in the country in half; and a Leave lobby unwilling or unable to make any concessions to the views and fears of the Remain camp as it drives the country towards the cliff edge_."

Now, just for fun...trying to be totally objective,  could you not also take the above to be"Remain lobby not accepting the result of the Referendum and continuing their campaign, thereby continuing the division?"

 - So, Mrs May, regardless of own prior position, making the position/date really clear... 


Now of course, I have said many times on here that I don't believe we'll leave.  Pretty much every anti Federalism vote have been re-run or ignored.  That's why we should leave!


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May now fiddling and 'dating' the Repeal Bill - to protect herself loses some of my sympathy?  And she is misleading the public according to Lord Kerr ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-public-author-lord-kerr-claims-a8046676.html

But let's not even contemplate that...why even acknowledge the truth of the matter - after all Lord Kerr would say that wouldn't he and so his words of clarification and guidance can be dismissed. And they will be.

Because May knows that the Art50 process can be stopped - so what a cunning ploy - get the default leaving date built into the Repeal Bill and she can claim that parliament has formally approved the leaving date and so parliament cannot stop Article50 as it is currently able to do?

Maybe I misread and misunderstand.

Sorry Prime Minister - I am not impressed
		
Click to expand...

You constantly ask for plans and definites, and when you get one you still criticise it to hell and back. Let's be honest here, if it doesn't suit your Remain desire you will always shred it


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## User2021 (Nov 10, 2017)

Although old *tresemme* shampoo is a remainer she now wants to go down in Political History as the PM who took us out.

I still don't think we will actually leave
I still think *tresemme* shampoo is on borrowed time and isn't strong enough to be PM

The budget in 12 days time is going to be interesting


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## IanM (Nov 10, 2017)

We got the shampoo reference   No need to (rinse and) repeat!!


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2017)

jobr1850 said:



			I still don't think we will actually leave
		
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How's that going to work?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			How's that going to work?
		
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The Progressive National Unity Alliance will reject it in Parliament.


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## IanM (Nov 10, 2017)

No, its the "_Want Another New Keep Europe Referendum_" Party............   Nick Clegg in the Chair!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2017)

IanM said:



			No, its the "_Want Another New Keep Europe Referendum_" Party............   Nick Clegg in the Chair!
		
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Dash it......the PNUA was supposed to be an underground movement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2018)

So Theresa May apologies for the Winter mess in the NHS - following on from Jeremy Hunt doing the same.  Am I supposed to be impressed?  Try resigning over the shambles then I might.  Saying sorry for a total 'screw up' doesn't change the fact of the 'screw up'.  But no matter.  May knows her reputation is pretty much in tatters so nothing to lose - but Hunt?  

Well of course apparently Hunt has his eyes on the prize - Deputy PM then leader of the Conservatives - and maybe just maybe PM.  Hunt can't get sacked from his position as Health Secretary as he is now a Leaver - albeit most probably a soft Leaver - but whatever - May can't and won't sack him for the NHS mess.  And Hunt can point to #10 and the Treasury as the source of the NHS funding issues - and by saying sorry he looks for some brownie points with the electorate - and that all helps his path to the 'crown'.

Oh but it would not be hilarious if he achieved his goals - a General Election was called and we - his constituents - kicked him out,


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## Jensen (Jan 4, 2018)

Between Christmas and New Year there was an interesting article on Sky News about body language.
It focused on Trump, Kim Jon nut job, Clinton and May.
What the expert identified with May is how much now she is stopping, as though she is carrying the world on her shoulder. So much different to when she came to power walking so upright.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2018)

We have a senior surgeon as a member at our golf club....   his view is interesting.

He said that if you list a dozen reasons (from both sides of the political divide) about why the NHS is struggling, you might find all of them are true to a certain extent.  And that doesn't mean there isn't lots of good stuff going on in amongst it.

My mum is a retired nurse, says roughly the same and it was no different when Tony and Gordon were in the House!


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

Shame that some don't seem to realize that the problems in the NHS has nothing to do with politics.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2018)

the NHS went downhill as soon as they let private contracts form parts of it.. they overcharge the gov and we the tax payer foot the bill

same on the tube... Â£150 to change a lightbulb rather than a Â£10 job


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2018)

I'm not in the NHS but have tried to follow the recent problems. The big issue seems to be bed blocking, mainly elderly patients who are fit to leave but can not be sent home unless there is some assistance for them at home. There is either no family, or an unwilling family, available or it takes too long to set up home helps etc. Is that a fair assumption? If it is then the issue is more social services, district nurse etc than pure hospital based NHS. Clear the jam, free up the beds, increase the flow of patients.

I know this is very simplistic but it seems to crop up time and time again as the problem. Is money going into this area as it could be the plunger to unblock the sink?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Shame that some don't seem to realize that the problems in the NHS has nothing to do with politics.
		
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of course - nothing at all to do with politics


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			of course - nothing at all to do with politics
		
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Good to see you agree although I'm somewhat surprised.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2018)

over the years (Labour and Tory) the NHS has closed many thousands of beds at a time when the population growth (accelerated by net immigration and aging) has risen.

Couple the drop in capacity and rising demand with the increased sophistication (e.g. cost) of treatments and you have a system of which the expectations are unreal.

Most nations expect patients to contribute to elective and non-emergency care.

Politicians of all colours have grappled with the question but failed to address the unreal expectations, rip-off charges by drug companies and unattractive pay levels for staff.

It is too easy to lay the blame at the PM and beyond stupidity to think her resignation would really achieve anything at all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2018)

drdel said:



			over the years (Labour and Tory) the NHS has closed many thousands of beds at a time when the population growth (accelerated by net immigration and aging) has risen.

Couple the drop in capacity and rising demand with the increased sophistication (e.g. cost) of treatments and you have a system of which the expectations are unreal.

Most nations expect patients to contribute to elective and non-emergency care.

Politicians of all colours have grappled with the question but failed to address the unreal expectations, rip-off charges by drug companies and unattractive pay levels for staff.

It is too easy to lay the blame at the PM and beyond stupidity to think her resignation would really achieve anything at all.
		
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beyond stupidity - hmmm - where is that then?  Surely can't be directed at me as that would be personal - and we don't do personal attacks on here - do we...


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			beyond stupidity - hmmm - where is that then?  Surely can't be directed at me as that would be personal - and we don't do personal attacks on here - do we...
		
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Wouldn't have thought so as you have already agreed it's not political.


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## USER1999 (Jan 4, 2018)

I am not sure those outside of the pharmaceutical world realise how expensive and time consuming it is to research and develop a drug, and get it to market, and how much money is spent on drugs that never get there.

Rip off pharma. Really not seeing that. Without them, we would be stuffed.

Part of the trouble is people live longer, with more serious diseases. So much is treatable, prolonging life, but at a big on cost. The NHS was not built on this type of business model.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Wouldn't have thought so as you have already agreed it's not political.
		
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Oh I don't think I've agreed.  But as you _do _seem to think the NHS problems are not political you need to tell Bob Kerslake - ex Chair of Board of Kings College Hospital until Oct last year 

https://www.theguardian.com/society...kerslake-resigns-underfunding-health-services

who today has said that Theresa May is in denial over the NHS

Sounds political to me.  But what do I know.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

Her being in denial (If you feel she really is) doesn't make it political although I see how it suits your argument. You appear to be very easily influenced by anyone who comes up with an anti government statement.

More people live longer and require more from all of our public services. Anyone with any knowledge of finances would know that there is a huge cost to the problem.

Your man Hunt last week actual (at last) realized that long term planning is what is required to deal with these problems, not the short term plasters that ALL parties have failed to grasp.

With a restricted amount of money coming in it is for those that we elect to inform us how this problem will be achieved before an election and then we vote for the solution we like.

The facts are, they need to rob Peter to pay Paul or they raise more money through taxes or we pay for services as and when required.

They could also look at the dross and hangers on in the public sector including the NHS and get rid of them.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh I don't think I've agreed.
		
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#997 :lol:


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## Dellboy (Jan 4, 2018)

I think the NHS is fantastic, been having an on going chest problems, nothing serious but painful. 
Went to see my GP on the 27th of Dec, she recommended I have a course of injections into chest, I called my local hospital on the 27th for an appointment, had the injections yesterday with an overnight stay, top service.

Now I know all is not well in the NHS but for some on here to keep on running it down just to score some petty political points is pretty sad.

Letâ€™s not forget that Labour made a right hash of it last time they were in, more money will not cure it, reorganisation is whatâ€™s needed, also less Managers would go a long way to helping, I have a family member who works at the local hospital, some days they have more office staff than nurses on her ward.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			beyond stupidity - hmmm - where is that then?  Surely can't be directed at me as that would be personal - and we don't do personal attacks on here - do we...
		
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Re-arrange these words into a well known phrase or saying:

Fits if wear the it cap


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2018)

Bob Kerslake

Whole career spent in the public sector
Life long friend of Jeremy Corbyn
Had to resign from his last post in the NHS due to poor financial performance in an area he was responsible.

Not a great example unless your trying to make a political point.


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## Dando (Jan 4, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			the NHS went downhill as soon as they let private contracts form parts of it.. they overcharge the gov and we the tax payer foot the bill

same on the tube... Â£150 to change a lightbulb rather than a Â£10 job
		
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at one of my old companies we insured some pfi contracts and so got to look at the contract terms and the repayments - they were outrageous and like you say have lumbered the nhs with billions of Â£ of debt. 
most people either donâ€™t understand or refuse to admit that while the tories started this, it was labour who went to town with them as they were building schools and hospitals but keeping the expense off the books.

imho all these contracts should be cancelled


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			#997 :lol:
		
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OK - choose to ignore any obvious irony and sarcasm in a post and then make a point of it...oh dear


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Old Skier said:



*Her being in denial (If you feel she really is) *doesn't make it political although I see how it suits your argument. You appear to be very easily influenced by anyone who comes up with an anti government statement.

More people live longer and require more from all of our public services. Anyone with any knowledge of finances would know that there is a huge cost to the problem.

Your man Hunt last week actual (at last) realized that long term planning is what is required to deal with these problems, not the short term plasters that ALL parties have failed to grasp.

With a restricted amount of money coming in it is for those that we elect to inform us how this problem will be achieved before an election and then we vote for the solution we like.

The facts are, they need to rob Peter to pay Paul or they raise more money through taxes or we pay for services as and when required.

They could also look at the dross and hangers on in the public sector including the NHS and get rid of them.
		
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Not my words of viewpoint - though I might agree.

But yup - of course - problems with the NHS are nothing to do with politics (and just in case anyone misunderstands - I'm being sarcastic).


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2018)

Joined up thinking is required by the health and social services to avoid the kind of headlines we have recently seen.
The Scottish NHS trusts and social services are generally very good at this and patient satisfaction is very high.

However, my local health board has just closed a small hospital site with 30 beds. This site just cares for the elderly who are one step away from the hospice. These 30 patients are now on the general hospital wards and will obviously have knock on effects on the staffing demands and available beds.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Joined up thinking is required by the health and social services to avoid the kind of headlines we have recently seen.
The Scottish NHS trusts and social services are generally very good at this and patient satisfaction is very high.

However, my local health board has just closed a small hospital site with 30 beds. This site just cares for the elderly who are one step away from the hospice. These 30 patients are now on the general hospital wards and will obviously have knock on effects on the staffing demands and available beds.
		
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These are exactly the type of sites that are needed. They should be opening more, not closing them. Those patients will now be bed blocking, through no fault of their own. Sooooooo frustrating.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Joined up thinking is required by the health and social services to avoid the kind of headlines we have recently seen.
The Scottish NHS trusts and social services are generally very good at this and patient satisfaction is very high.

However, my local health board has just closed a small hospital site with 30 beds. This site just cares for the elderly who are one step away from the hospice. These 30 patients are now on the general hospital wards and will obviously have knock on effects on the staffing demands and available beds.
		
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My mum was in a NHS Scotland palliative care home for her last year.  It was built and is managed by a private company - all care services are provided by NHS Scotland.  Without it she would have been a bed-blocker - possibly in the QueenLizzieUH.  Her care was fabulous.  The home caters for 72 end-of-life patients in a lovely and caring environment - it is scheduled for closure in March 2019.  Why?  Well the building was built under a PFI initiative and is owned by the private company.  Their contract comes to and in in March 2019 and they don't want it extended as they wish to use the building for other purposes (or knock it down - even though it is fairly new - and build housing).  Oh dear.


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not my words of viewpoint - though I might agree.

But yup - of course - problems with the NHS are nothing to do with politics (and just in case anyone misunderstands - I'm being sarcastic).
		
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Not sure who who or what your point of view is, who are you agreeing or not with.

It seems the SNP are following the current government policies then looking at Doons post. Didn't realize they were fans of the Torys.


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## Junior (Jan 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My mum was in a NHS Scotland palliative care home for her last year.  It was built and is managed by a private company - all care services are provided by NHS Scotland.  Without it she would have been a bed-blocker - possibly in the QueenLizzieUH.  Her care was fabulous.  The home caters for 72 end-of-life patients in a lovely and caring environment - it is scheduled for closure in March 2019.  Why?  Well the building was built under a PFI initiative and is owned by the private company.  Their contract comes to and in in March 2019 and they don't want it extended as they wish to use the building for other purposes (or knock it down - even though it is fairly new - and build housing).  Oh dear.
		
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It's a real shame such a place is closing.  I have friends who's parents are in such places and the care they receive is exemplary. 

A genuine question though, referring back to the thread title ,  How is it Teresa May's fault that such a place you describe is closing down ?  Private land that could be sold on for great profit than what the owner is receiving now ?  

It's just with all the negativity around politics right now (and I'm a floating voter btw so please don't judge), I actually think she is doing an OK job.  Who else would you trust to negotiate with the EU over Brexit, Corbyn  ?   It's not a job anyone on here could do, although we all sound like we know what we want, and I can't think of anyone in politics right now who would be a better PM.  That said, its a shame David Milliband has disappeared somewhat as he was one I like to hear speak.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Old Skier said:



*Not sure who who or what your point of view is, who are you agreeing or not with.
*
It seems the SNP are following the current government policies then looking at Doons post. Didn't realize they were fans of the Torys.
		
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What am I supposed to make of that...it's not even funny.  

And so - just in case I doubted myself that 'the problems wit the NHS are not political' or that 'May is in denial' as Kerslake said.  An older but valid link.

http://www.tiptopaware.com/2017/01/crisis-what-nhs-crisis-theresa-may-must-stop-this-denial/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Junior said:



			It's a real shame such a place is closing.  I have friends who's parents are in such places and the care they receive is exemplary. 

A genuine question though, referring back to the thread title ,  How is it Teresa May's fault that such a place you describe is closing down ?  Private land that could be sold on for great profit than what the owner is receiving now ?  

It's just with all the negativity around politics right now (and I'm a floating voter btw so please don't judge), I actually think she is doing an OK job.  Who else would you trust to negotiate with the EU over Brexit, Corbyn  ?   It's not a job anyone on here could do, although we all sound like we know what we want, and I can't think of anyone in politics right now who would be a better PM.  That said, its a shame David Milliband has disappeared somewhat as he was one I like to hear speak.
		
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Nothing May can do about the closure of the home as it's NHS Scotland.  That said I don't think the Scottish Government are that inclined to keep it open either as they are looking at how best to provide the care alternatively using the funding they 'save' from the closure - whether that s HBCC or otherwise..

_The new approach â€“ Hospital Based Complex Care â€“ asks the question â€œcan this
individuals care needs be properly met in any setting other than a hospital?â€ In other
words does someone require on-going care and support that can only be provided
safely and effectively in hospital? The view of the Scottish Government is that â€œwe
should look to disinvest in long-stay beds â€“ in a proportionate, measured and safe way
â€“ and spend the resource, both money and staff, supporting people in the community,
where personal outcomes are almost always better.â€ _

So no - nothing May can do about this one - was just adding to what Doon had posted previously.  

But May does seem to be struggling across the board.  I think it is just her own christian democratic convictions - to try and sort things rather than have someone else come in who makes things worse - that keeps her going.


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What am I supposed to make of that...it's not even funny.  

And so - just in case I doubted myself that 'the problems wit the NHS are not political' or that 'May is in denial' as Kerslake said.  An older but valid link.

http://www.tiptopaware.com/2017/01/crisis-what-nhs-crisis-theresa-may-must-stop-this-denial/

Click to expand...

So it's all Labours fault then.

Or it's not a political problem, it's a problem that all party's have failed to recognize or (more likely) failed to come up with a strategy to deal with the problem


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So it's all Labours fault then.

Or it's not a political problem,* it's a problem that all party's have failed to recognize or (more likely) failed to come up with a strategy to deal with the problem*

Click to expand...

So it *is *a political problem?


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So it *is *a political problem?
		
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Not untill the NHS come up with a strategy to deal with it.

If you want to blame it on politicians blame them all instead of showing your one party bias.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2018)

Strange how some say it is not a political situation then make cheap inaccurate political comments to suit their own political bias.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So it *is *a political problem?
		
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The NHS is governed by whichever party is in power, obviously. And whilst itâ€™s subject to different political doctrines every 5(?) years it will always lack a consistent approach.

Is May and Hunt to blame? They are the current â€˜captainâ€™sâ€™ and are responsible. However, you can point the finger at successive governments going back as long as I can remember and say they are to blame.

Until a government, of any persuasion, puts together a funding mechanism that recognises that the NHS requires more than inflationary rises it will continue to spiral down to death.

Ann Widdicombe articulated the issues very clearly several years ago, the short version being you, the electorate, can have any version of NHS you want but the harsh reality is you will have to pay for it. She also said that the NHS needs to be run by a politically independent management organisation that isnâ€™t subject to rule from Westminster.

Tory doctrine is based around lower taxation, which doesnâ€™t fit with the (true) level of funding the NHS needs. And Labour wonâ€™t tell the truth on the level of taxation they will bring in to properly fund the NHS.

The fiddling around the edges that successive governments have done will never put things right.


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2018)

Argument alert - There's an NHS thread !

As to Theresa May, Corbyn is simply not offering a feasible alternative and across the Channel I note that the pundits are suggesting she'll outlast Merkel.


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strange how some say it is not a political situation then make cheap inaccurate political comments to suit their own political bias. 

Click to expand...

From you, that's a cracker.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2018)

Inept and awful but at least she has rescinded her offer to have a free vote on Fox hunting. She has enough carnage on her hands without taking that on again.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2018)

Sick to the back teeth with "we have an ageing population" excuse...


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Sick to the back teeth with "we have an ageing population" excuse...
		
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It is however a fact ignored by transport providers, tax revenue generation and many companies/corporations - not just in health provision:.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Sick to the back teeth with "we have an ageing population" excuse...
		
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drdel said:



			It is however a fact ignored by transport providers, tax revenue generation and many companies/corporations - not just in health provision:.
		
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And weâ€™ve had an aging population since records began. Each generation has lived a little longer than the previous generation. I do wish an interviewer would have a follow-up question when this statement is trotted out. â€œDo you think we donâ€™t know that, has it come as a shock to you?


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## patricks148 (Jan 7, 2018)

after todays performance on Andrew Marr, i'm surprised she ever got to be an MP let alone PM


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			after todays performance on Andrew Marr, i'm surprised she ever got to be an MP let alone PM
		
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Wasn't great was it...never mind the content - her delivery I found just rather excruciating - nervous and inauthentic.  And what's going on with her mouth - when speaking she seemed to have a quivering bottom lip - and about to burst into tears half the time.  You could see almost sheer relief on her face when she felt she had an opportunity to say something that she felt was very positive...her face changed (and I'm not talking about the skin bronzer my Mrs was thinking she had on her face - I wouldn't know).

Wondering whether she'll put Chris Grayling into Deputy PM role today - he being the most enormous waste of space and utter failure as a minister over the last 10 years.  Just put him as DPM and get him out of the way.  Would having Hunt as her DPM be too much soft leave influence for hardliners - like Grayling...(though with his record in government why anyone might listen to anything he says these days God only knows).

Interesting to see what she does...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Inept and awful but at least she has rescinded her offer to have a free vote on Fox hunting. She has enough carnage on her hands without taking that on again.
		
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And on Marr she was giving that the '_I've listened to the people'_ schtick - what about those who might have had their vote swayed her and Tory party way *because* of her manifesto promise of a free vote - well they don't seem to matter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2018)

So how has she done?  I'm thinking it's all window dressing in any case in such as the NHS - though it does disappoint to hear so many voices wanting her to kick all who voted Remain and may be trying to minimise the impact of Brexit, and why do they call on her to do that? Because the 'Will of the People' has UK leaving and so EVERYONE in the cabinet should be hard leavers - no shirking remainers allowed.  

But folks - if her cabinet is to reflect the 'will of the people' because the will of 48% of the people was to remain - she needs remainers in her cabinet.  But no - get rid of them traitors, troublemakers and delayers one and all.  Fortunately to her credit I think May realises that that's verging on totalitarianism and she's not having that.  I believe she *wants* and *needs* a balance of Brexit views in her cabinet as she does not actually want a 'Hard' or 'No Deal' Brexit - that does not silence the complainers and her critics on the Brexit side.

Oddly enough I get the impression that more 'remain' voters have something OK to say about her (as I do) than 'Leave' voters.  Seems rather paradoxical that.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2018)

Incompetent, the bl00dy lot of them. More u-turns than an Italian tank driver. Announcement earlier today pulled because it was wrong. Budget after budget that gets shredded before it sees the statute books.

Sadly, itâ€™s the best of a bad job.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 8, 2018)

Did a minister for no deal get appointed?


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2018)

Could do worse


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Incompetent, the bl00dy lot of them. More u-turns than an Italian tank driver. Announcement earlier today pulled because it was wrong. Budget after budget that gets shredded before it sees the statute books.

Sadly, itâ€™s the best of a bad job.
		
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I heard one Leave supporter - in struggling to come up with something nice to say about May - decided that the best he could say was that she triggered Art50 (she didn't parliament did) and that she was determined - like Maggie.  

Well she may be determined - maybe - but she ain't no Maggie.  For one thing you knew what Maggie believed in (like it or not) and the lady was not for turning.  Unfortunately Theresa May seems to be spinning so much she is getting dizzy and confused - and in that confusion she seems to have lost track of what she believes in...if not she seems too dizzied with those challenging Tories around her that she is unable to articulate just what she wants.  I dearly hope that some time soon she decides that she has to confront the beast and tell the country the truth as she sees it.  And many in her party and in the country will not like what she could say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2018)

So much ado about nothing, except Justine Greening says _thanks but no thanks_ over a move from Education to Work and Pensions and resigns the cabinet - oops.  And Jeremy Hunt argues against swapping him with Greg Clarke at Business; wins the argument and stays at Health. Hmm.  

Did no one tell May that Greening wouldn't accept a move to the DWP and Hunt wouldn't accept a move to Business?  Thought for some time that Hunt was in a strong position as he has morphed from Remain to Leave since the referendum - and so it seems - May can't get him out of Health no matter how toxic he might be to many.


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## larmen (Jan 8, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Could do worse 
	View attachment 24144

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Wouldn't you rather have a good prime minister than 'not the worst'?

Otherwise vote for Corbyn, at least you haven't got Shipman then.


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## chippa1909 (Jan 8, 2018)

May: I'm going to have a re-shuffle.

Cabinet: Oh no you're not!

The "Strong And Stable" pantomime continues...


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## User62651 (Jan 9, 2018)

How long until the right wing press including broadsheets turn on May?
Even the normally loyal Telegraph front pages with 'Night of the blunt stiletto' today and a fairly negative article.

Alas the one person who really needs reshuffled into retirement remains utterly blinkered to her own ineptitude.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2018)

I'm not sure anyone really wants to take over at the moment. It's a bit like taking over a poor Utd team after Fergie left, whoever it was going to be they were going to get a hiding. Any new PM would have a pathetic majority, a hostile party, they are in hoc to the DUP, Brexit is dragging the govt down and they have little money to buy off the voters. Considering you only get one chance at actually being PM then now is not the time to say "me please". Better to get past Brexit and start with a relatively clean sheet. She's a dead woman walking but no one wants to join her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2018)

Well what do you know - the Mail, Telegraph and Times come galloping to my side before the usual suspects attack me and my thoughts on the May re-shuffle as being typical of my blinkered, biased anti-Tory rantings.  More's the pity.

So what is going on?  Well I might suggests that she's either:

1) being very clever politically and trying to save the Tory party from itself by somehow getting to the point of triggering another GE and getting Corbyn into power; with the Tories then being able to blame him and Labour for the resulting mess that she is confident is going to happen - or;

2) utterly useless at the job (as many fell she was as Home Secretary)

Note that I hear that Davis was going to resign if she created a post of Minister for No Deal; and that Maria Caulfield - the new Minister for Women - is an anti-abortionist and had tweeted support for Toby Young - now resigned (as btw so also did our Foreign Secretary - a week ago telling us that Young was perfect for the role)

And why did May not get Toby Young removed from the position when she stated how objectionable and unacceptable his words were?
  Could it be 'cos Toby Young is a good mate of his boss Joe Johnson and also her Foreign Secretary - who just so happens to be the brother of his boss. Powerless and well as hopeless.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 9, 2018)

The people delivered a blow the political classes are still reeling from...

Well done us I say...


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## User62651 (Jan 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The people delivered a blow the political classes are still reeling from...

Well done us I say...
		
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Given this Quentin Letts book for Xmas, a funny read it is -https://www.amazon.co.uk/Patronising-*******s-Elites-Betrayed-Britain/dp/1472127358

Scuse the profanity, that's what the book's called!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The people delivered a blow the political classes are still reeling from...

Well done us I say...
		
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Don't get what that is about and whatever it refers to I can't work out what it has got to do with May's ability to do the job of PM


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2018)

The one positive is Hunt insisting on taking social services with the health service.
Good to see one Westminster Minister has a grip on things.

The rest looks like an out of control scrabble, with ministers dictating to the PM.
 She really has lost it.

BTW Toby Young resigned [if you can resign from a job you have yet to start. :lol:


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one positive is Hunt insisting on taking social services with the health service.
Good to see one Westminster Minister has a grip on things.
		
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I agree with this. They need to be joined up and this should help. There can certainly be no more excuses going forward.

I heard one doctor talking yesterday who said that if you gave the NHS more money tomorrow then at least half of it should be given immediately to social care as that will get people home, out of hospital beds and free up space. More money but not enough beds is no use.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't get what that is about and whatever it refers to I can't work out what it has got to do with May's ability to do the job of PM
		
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Ummm... The people have posed a 'question' for which she appears to have no answer...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Ummm... The people have posed a 'question' for which she appears to have no answer...
		
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what question?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what question?
		
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Is the meaning of life really 42?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Is the meaning of life really 42?
		
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So the people have asked Theresa May to tell us what the meaning of life is?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2018)

Well - things have not got much better for Mrs May in the three weeks since I last posted.   She is either completely out of her depth and doing an awful job - or she is doing a sterling job trying to stop the Brexit deal heading down the very hardest or No Deal Brexit - and because it seems like she is being attacked by Tories all all complexions - maybe she is doing all that she can - and nobody could do it better.

But boy - last week standing there at Davos in that great big stage - grey faced and hesitant, body language saying 'I really don't want to be here doing this but I have no choice'  - talking to a relatively sparse audience.  She must be wondering how she gets out of the job without triggering mayhem.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2018)

The sharks seem to be circling around May.........non of them up to much......goodness we have moved on from Johnson and Gove to Rees Mog and a couple of unknown chinless wonders. Desperate times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The sharks seem to be circling around May.........non of them up to much......goodness we have moved on from Johnson and Gove to Rees Mog and a couple of unknown chinless wonders. Desperate times.
		
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And some are even throwing the name Andrea Leadsom back into the hat - what on earth has *she* been doing this last 18months?  I see her sat on the Front Bench but have hardly heard a dickie bird from her.  Maybe that's her plan.  Say nothing and she can't say anything really stupid or damaging - or get pigeon-holed.

Oh yes - Andrea Leadsom as PM ... hells teeth.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And some are even throwing the name Andrea Leadsom back into the hat - what on earth has *she* been doing this last 18months?  I see her sat on the Front Bench but have hardly heard a dickie bird from her.  Maybe that's her plan.  Say nothing and she can't say anything really stupid or damaging - or get pigeon-holed.

Oh yes - Andrea Leadsom as PM ... hells teeth.
		
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Who would you choose? Party politics aside, who is a competent politician? I don't like Nicola Sturgeon's politics but I think she is a very competent politician. Equally, I like the way David Davies performs in interview, and I'd like to think that he is that competent behind closed doors. I like the way Corbyn speaks, and his social conscience but I also feel it hides a cynical opportunist whose politics frighten me.

Your choices?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Who would you choose? Party politics aside, who is a competent politician? I don't like Nicola Sturgeon's politics but I think she is a very competent politician. Equally, I like the way David Davies performs in interview, and I'd like to think that he is that competent behind closed Joors. I like the way Corbyn speaks, and his social conscience but I also feel it hides a cynical opportunist whose politics frighten me.

Your choices?
		
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From the Conservatives?  Jeremy Hunt.  David Davies seems to think it's all a bit of a wheeze - that a chortle and smile allows him to get away with blue murder.  Brexit is that serious - and he just isn't.  

Also don't mind Amber Rudd - an ex venture capitalist so will  know a bit about money - but her majority probably too small.  Of ardent Brexiteers I honestly don't go for any of them as I believe they are all either totally obsessed with leaving the EU - at whatever cost - or are happy to go along with whatever they think is good for themselves personally - rather than the country.

I'd probably think the same about Jeremy Hunt if he was not my MP and I had not spoken with him a few times.  But I await his reply to my most recent Email - at which point I might chop his head off also.

I like Ruth Davidson.  How it would go down were we to have another Scot as UK Prime Minister I am not so sure.  And she'd need a seat - maybe she can have that of our duplicitous and conninving FS....

I should add that I struggle very badly with Corbyn.  If today I had to choose between May and Corbyn I am not sure who I would go for.  The best I can say about Corbyn is that at least he seems to stick to his guns and be consistent in what he has said over the last 4 decades.  But that does not make me want to vote for him.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2018)

They seem to have dropped Moothie Ruthie.
Perhaps someone at head office has noted how many times she has changed her political compass in the last three years.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From the Conservatives?  Jeremy Hunt.  David Davies seems to think it's all a bit of a wheeze - that a chortle and smile allows him to get away with blue murder.  Brexit is that serious - and he just isn't.  

Also don't mind Amber Rudd - an ex venture capitalist so will  know a bit about money - but her majority probably too small.  Of ardent Brexiteers I honestly don't go for any of them as I believe they are all either totally obsessed with leaving the EU - at whatever cost - or are happy to go along with whatever they think is good for themselves personally - rather than the country.

I'd probably think the same about Jeremy Hunt if he was not my MP and I had not spoken with him a few times.  But I await his reply to my most recent Email - at which point I might chop his head off also.

I like Ruth Davidson.  How it would go down were we to have another Scot as UK Prime Minister I am not so sure.  And she'd need a seat - maybe she can have that of our duplicitous and conninving FS....

I should add that I struggle very badly with Corbyn.  If today I had to choose between May and Corbyn I am not sure who I would go for.  The best I can say about Corbyn is that at least he seems to stick to his guns and be consistent in what he has said over the last 4 decades.  But that does not make me want to vote for him.
		
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Yep, Corbyn had a real chance for power and unity.
He totally blew it with his first visit to Scotland, he said all the wrong things. He totally misunderstood the Scottish political scene [probably badly briefed by Slab MP's], and showed a poor knowledge on devolved issues.
England alone cannot give him the support he needs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2018)

Weak; No Leadership; No Vision; Cowed by hardline Eurosceptics; Hopeless; swamped by Brexit; Trying to appease all sides of the Tory Party while trying to deliver the impossible; pushed into triggering Article 50 far too early - stuck with a 'wish list' of objectives cobbled together to  pacify the hardline Eurosceptics - but with no plan to deliver a realistic and achievable Brexit.

On Day 1 following her becoming PM I heard words that I liked the sound of - but since then I have seen nothing that puts any substance behind these good words...

Maybe I should hope she goes sooner rather than later - for her sanity and health - with a wish that one of Johnson, Gove, Davis, Leadsom or Rees-Mogg get the PMship.  If all goes well with the negotiations and a good deal is forthcoming then they can take the credit - if we end up with a poor deal or no deal - then they can explain the mess to the country and tell us how they are going to get us out of that mess.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Weak; No Leadership; No Vision; Cowed by hardline Eurosceptics; Hopeless; swamped by Brexit; Trying to appease all sides of the Tory Party while trying to deliver the impossible; pushed into triggering Article 50 far too early - stuck with a 'wish list' of objectives cobbled together to  pacify the hardline Eurosceptics - but with no plan to deliver a realistic and achievable Brexit.

On Day 1 following her becoming PM I heard words that I liked the sound of - but since then I have seen nothing that puts any substance behind these good words...

Maybe I should hope she goes sooner rather than later - for her sanity and health - with a wish that one of Johnson, Gove, Davis, Leadsom or Rees-Mogg get the PMship.  If all goes well with the negotiations and a good deal is forthcoming then they can take the credit - if we end up with a poor deal or no deal - then they can explain the mess to the country and tell us how they are going to get us out of that mess.
		
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"Weak; no leadership."

The joys of retirement, I get to read far more than I used to. Just finished a piece in the New Statesman - great for yoghurt knitters? The piece revolved around a comparison between May and Macron, and about telling the people/EU/world what your country's stance is on issues and what your programme is for driving the country forward. Chalk and cheese. As much as I'm not keen on Macron, he is a competent politician. May isn't, or if she is she keeps it well hidden.

So what is the govt's stance on the NHS, the armed forces, social care, taxation? What is the govt's plan going forward? What is the govt's end goal in these areas? It may well have been articulated, but so badly it doesn't stick in my feeble brain. Who is selling the govt's message?

And if there was a GE tomorrow, what would I be voting for? I have a choice of 3 parties. The SNP, Labour and the Tories - forget the Libdems, they're a busted flush at present. Sturgeon articulates the SNP's position on so many things really well, and JC absolutely gets the message across. Who's that whispering in the background? May-who?

Tony Blair employed a PR, May desperately needs one of Alistair Campbell's capability. Like him or loathe him he did one hell of a job.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"Weak; no leadership."

The joys of retirement, I get to read far more than I used to. Just finished a piece in the New Statesman - great for yoghurt knitters? The piece revolved around a comparison between May and Macron, and about telling the people/EU/world what your country's stance is on issues and what your programme is for driving the country forward. Chalk and cheese. As much as I'm not keen on Macron, he is a competent politician. May isn't, or if she is she keeps it well hidden.

*So what is the govt's stance on the NHS, the armed forces, social care, taxation?* What is the govt's plan going forward? What is the govt's end goal in these areas? It may well have been articulated, but so badly it doesn't stick in my feeble brain. Who is selling the govt's message?

And if there was a GE tomorrow, what would I be voting for? I have a choice of 3 parties. The SNP, Labour and the Tories - forget the Libdems, they're a busted flush at present. Sturgeon articulates the SNP's position on so many things really well, and JC absolutely gets the message across. Who's that whispering in the background? May-who?

Tony Blair employed a PR, May desperately needs one of Alistair Campbell's capability. Like him or loathe him he did one hell of a job.
		
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I am sure they do have. But Brexit is dominating everything (and a lot of that is down to the Tories themselves constantly infighting over it) to such an extent that very little else gets mentioned.  And possibly done in government. 

One thing that concerned me recently was the demotion of Justine Greening.  As a chair of governors I pay more interest than most to education policy.  And whilst I am no fan of Tory education policy in general, in the very short time she was there she was (relatively for a Tory anyway) not that bad, especially in the field of social mobility which she is very keen on.  But she seems to have been sacked as she did not believe in the grammar schools and they have got a new one in now who does.  So expect those to rear their ugly heads again soon.  

But in general changing ministers who have different philosophies, even though they are all in the same party, every year or so is no way to run a government. And especially no way to run an education system for the future of our kids.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2018)

On watching a report within Countryfile this morning... 
I'd suggest we haven't had a government fit for purpose for far too long...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"Weak; no leadership."

The joys of retirement, I get to read far more than I used to. Just finished a piece in the New Statesman - great for yoghurt knitters? The piece revolved around a comparison between May and Macron, and about telling the people/EU/world what your country's stance is on issues and what your programme is for driving the country forward. Chalk and cheese. As much as I'm not keen on Macron, he is a competent politician. May isn't, or if she is she keeps it well hidden.

So what is the govt's stance on the NHS, the armed forces, social care, taxation? What is the govt's plan going forward? What is the govt's end goal in these areas? It may well have been articulated, but so badly it doesn't stick in my feeble brain. Who is selling the govt's message?

And if there was a GE tomorrow, what would I be voting for? I have a choice of 3 parties. The SNP, Labour and the Tories - forget the Libdems, they're a busted flush at present. Sturgeon articulates the SNP's position on so many things really well, and JC absolutely gets the message across. Who's that whispering in the background? May-who?

Tony Blair employed a PR, May desperately needs one of Alistair Campbell's capability. Like him or loathe him he did one hell of a job.
		
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At least if a GE tomorrow I would have another choice - Louise Irvine of the National Health Action Party - who I  voted for in the last GE, just can't see myself voting Labour at the moment.  If she didn't stand against Hunt goodness knows who I'd vote for.  Probably LibDems as they have been traditionally quite strong in SW Surrey.

Loving Anna Soubry having a real go at Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and telling May to kick them and the other 35 bonkers brexiteers (not my epithet, but can't recall exactly how she referred to them though it was along these lines) - and then threatening to leave the party as not being the conservative party that she joined.

And that's where we are - May having to make a strong statement on  the CU that simply seems designed to pacify that bunch - and at the same time trying to prevent a rift in the party and such as Souby from leaving the party.  Good luck Prime Minister for this week.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At least if a GE tomorrow I would have another choice - Louise Irvine of the National Health Action Party - who I  voted for in the last GE, just can't see myself voting Labour at the moment.  If she didn't stand against Hunt goodness knows who I'd vote for.  Probably LibDems as they have been traditionally quite strong in SW Surrey.

Loving Anna Soubry having a real go at Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and telling May to kick them and the other 35 bonkers brexiteers (not my epithet, but can't recall exactly how she referred to them though it was along these lines) - and then threatening to leave the party as not being the conservative party that she joined.

And that's where we are - May having to make a strong statement on  the CU that simply seems designed to pacify that bunch - and at the same time trying to prevent a rift in the party and such as Souby from leaving the party.  Good luck Prime Minister for this week.
		
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Mmm, Anna Sourby. That'll be the MP who was Business Minister when SSI went to the wall on Teesside. She'll be the one that told the House that the govt had only learned at almost the last minute that SSI was in need of help. Maybe if she'd been truthful about the SSI approaches to her dept in the May and again in July, and that the govt's position was one of brinksmanship with SSI and the Thai banks. And that her dept was shocked when the Thai bank said no more money I'd be more amenable to listening to her.

I agree with what she is saying about Johnson and Mogg but to be honest she is as duplicitous as them. I have no time for her...


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## bobmac (Feb 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, Anna Sourby. That'll be the MP who was Business Minister when SSI went to the wall on Teesside. She'll be the one that told the House that the govt had only learned at almost the last minute that SSI was in need of help. Maybe if she'd been truthful about the SSI approaches to her dept in the May and again in July, and that the govt's position was one of brinksmanship with SSI and the Thai banks. And that her dept was shocked when the Thai bank said no more money I'd be more amenable to listening to her.

I agree with what she is saying about Johnson and Mogg but to be honest she is as duplicitous as them. I have no time for her...
		
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This Ms Sourby?


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2018)

bobmac said:



			This Ms Sourby?

View attachment 24415

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That's the hot babe in question


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			That's the hot babe in question
		
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Think you might need to get out of the sun...


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Think you might need to get out of the sun...
		
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Just imagine her in leather!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Just imagine her in leather!
		
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Apparently Soubry gave Piers Morgan a good (verbal) spanking on _Good Morning Britain_ this morning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2018)

Well May did actually sound rather prime ministerial yesterday with her statement on the Salisbury 'terrorist attack' / 'act of chemical warfare' - but has she painted herself into a corner with the ultimatum that she gave Russia?  

She gave them two options - and demanded they admit to one or the other by midnight today - I suggest that they will not admit to either. Then what?  hand over to our Foreign Secretary to deal out the punishment?  Well they already have dismissed May's words as a circus show - and so oh how the Russians would laugh were our very clown of a FS come to the centre of the ring.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well May did actually sound rather prime ministerial yesterday with her statement on the Salisbury 'terrorist attack' / 'act of chemical warfare' - but has she painted herself into a corner with the ultimatum that she gave Russia?  

She gave them two options - and demanded they admit to one or the other by midnight today - I suggest that they will not admit to either. Then what?  hand over to our Foreign Secretary to deal out the punishment?  Well they already have dismissed May's words as a circus show - and so oh how the Russians would laugh were our very clown of a FS come to the centre of the ring.
		
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The Russians showed a picture on their tv of our foreign secretary stuck on a zip slide waving two Union flags.
How very dare them.

I have a gut feeling that this story lies a bit closer to home than Russia.
Remember the double agent spent six years in a Russian Prison


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## MegaSteve (Mar 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have a gut feeling that this story lies a bit closer to home than Russia.
Remember the double agent spent six years in a Russian Prison
		
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In that case they should be targeting Salmond...
As he now works for the Kremlin...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			In that case they should be targeting Salmond...
As he now works for the Kremlin...
		
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Salmond was an former politician when he chose to have a programme on RT.
How about you naming the current crop of MP's and political party's who are receiving funds from Russian sources and have had interviews and programmes on RT. 
Strangely enough most of those MP's are Tory Party members.


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## User62651 (Mar 13, 2018)

May is hamstrung by what she can do or say, little real effective options are open to her. Ban a few diplomats maybe? Think we should have more proof before she throws allegations around too, weak leader had to be seen to lead I suppose.


Hypothetically what if the nerve gas case was reversed so that -

A former British spy who helped the Kremlin, Billy Doyle, turned Russian citizen living in Russia was attacked by stealth along with his daughter Pauline by undercover British agents using a British made nerve agent in a Russian City like Volgograd with traces in homes/pubs/restaurants there? 
Hate to think where we'd be with the Russian Govt now- defcon 1 or whatever it's equivalent is!


Putin led Russia is a big bully doing more or less what it likes in terms of cybercrime, military campaigns (Ukraine/Syria) and professional hits on those who have done harm to her. 

In response are we again just the bulldog with no teeth?    - I'm going to tell America and the UN and the EU on you!

Is it not more likely a Russia mafia or gangs type hit rather than a Govt one? Do we know what the target was into in his retirement to keep up a comfy lifestyle?


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 13, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Putin led Russia is a big bully doing more or less what it likes in terms of cybercrime, military campaigns (Ukraine/Syria) and professional hits on those who have done harm to her. 

In response are we again just the bulldog with no teeth?    - I'm going to tell America and the UN and the EU on you!

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The leader of our main allies is beholden to Putin so isn't going to do much more than "hold our coat" in this fight. Maybe as a key member of a strong EU we'd be a tougher proposition for Russian aggression but that ship has sailed. Russia can pretty much do as they please and all we can do is complain about it.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 13, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Maybe as a key member of a strong EU we'd be a tougher proposition for Russian aggression but that ship has sailed. Russia can pretty much do as they please and all we can do is complain about it.
		
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Team EU hasn't really stopped Vlad doing his worst previously...

The best help we could get from Europe, presently, is all European teams withdrawal from the World Cup... Not sure if that would really put him on the back foot either...


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2018)

EU claim responsibility for keeping peace in the region since WW2.  (except for when wars have broken out!)

If the EU is now too weak to do this maybe the countries from around the North Atlantic could have some form of Treaty?  Dunno


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Salmond was an former politician when he chose to have a programme on RT.
How about you naming the current crop of MP's and political party's who are receiving funds from Russian sources and have had interviews and programmes on RT. 
Strangely enough most of those MP's are Tory Party members.
		
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Salmond should get off RT - his reasons never ever really cut it for me that much - certainly doesn;t do it now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2018)

IanM said:



			EU claim responsibility for keeping peace in the region since WW2.  (except for when wars have broken out!)

If the EU is now too weak to do this maybe the countries from around the North Atlantic could have some form of Treaty?  Dunno 

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That'll be the treaty that involves, as a critical member, a country who's leader appears to prefer Russia (Putin Pal) to the EU (Trade War) - brilliant - couldn't really make it up.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Salmond should get off RT - his reasons never ever really cut it for me that much - certainly doesn't do it now.
		
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Think he saw if as a once in a lifetime opportunity to tell Ms Most Influential to go swivel ....


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			The leader of our main allies is beholden to Putin so isn't going to do much more than "hold our coat" in this fight. Maybe as a key member of a strong EU we'd be a tougher proposition for Russian aggression but that ship has sailed. Russia can pretty much do as they please and all we can do is complain about it.
		
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Yep, the stronge EU was very keen to help out and be tough when Russia invaded Ukraine. Wait a minute, France and Germany ran away from implementing any real sanctions and the Netherlands who lost a civil plane and citizens were conspicuous by their silence.

Seems everyone forgets history.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, the stronge EU was very keen to help out and be tough when Russia invaded Ukraine. Wait a minute, France and Germany ran away from implementing any real sanctions and the Netherlands who lost a civil plane and citizens were conspicuous by their silence.

Seems everyone forgets history.
		
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I did say "maybe"


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The best help we could get from Europe, presently, is all European teams withdrawal from the World Cup... Not sure if that would really put him on the back foot either...
		
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Financialy it would cripple FIFA and provide a loss of much needed revenue to Russia ( two birds with one stone) but unfortunately football is more important than trying to suppress the finances of Russia.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2018)

So have we heard yet what May is going to do...

According to Trump yesterday he was going to be speaking to her yesterday evening - hope she put him in his place and told him some truths from his countries best and favourite ally - that with which his country has a 'special relationship'.

Mind you - Trump won't be happy as it looks like the Dems won the Special House election in Western Pennsylvania yesterday - this being Trump and GOP heartland.  I await his 'buck passing'.  But whatever he says - rubbish as it might often be - it _*will *_have been him wot lost it for the GOP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2018)

Reasonable and appropriate measures from May I think.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reasonable and appropriate measures from May I think.
		
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We only have her word for it that the nerve gas was actually produced in Russia.
It looks like she has refused to provide a 'sample' for the Russians.
Something a bit smelly about this one I think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We only have her word for it that the nerve gas was actually produced in Russia.
It looks like she has refused to provide a 'sample' for the Russians.
Something a bit smelly about this one I think.
		
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nah - the request from Russia was simply an act to delay things and then when we did not provide them with it as a smokescreen for denial.  She didn't answer Corbyn's question on whether we have provided a sample to the Russians - why would we?

The Russians don't care.  This is Putin putting up Russia / Putin against the world to bolster his standing.

BTW - did you know that Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's? now I didn't - but I found out at lunchtime.  Russia is in an economic mess and Putin needs all the brownie points he can garner to maintain his internal popularity.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2018)

We could supply a sample to a neutral country, allow Russian scientists to be present whilst it is being tested. Reverse the position. If the Russians accused of us killing a spy on Russian soil would you accept their word that Britain was responsible or would you want to see evidence and test if for yourself or at least have it tested by a neutral lab?

It may well be Russia, the evidence may point to Russia but there is a dance to be performed. At the moment we are playing into their hands by making us look like the bullying, lying West. Easy for Putin to spin this back home. Collect the evidence, present the evidence and then point the finger.

The Russian economy may be smaller than Italy's but their military is not and their cyber attacks are highly effective. We need to be engaging with them as best as we can and if we can't then we need to present the evidence to the rest of the world in a way that gives Russia nowhere to hide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We could supply a sample to a neutral country, allow Russian scientists to be present whilst it is being tested. Reverse the position. If the Russians accused of us killing a spy on Russian soil would you accept their word that Britain was responsible or would you want to see evidence and test if for yourself or at least have it tested by a neutral lab?

It may well be Russia, the evidence may point to Russia but there is a dance to be performed. At the moment we are playing into their hands by making us look like the bullying, lying West. Easy for Putin to spin this back home. Collect the evidence, present the evidence and then point the finger.

The Russian economy may be smaller than Italy's but their military is not and their cyber attacks are highly effective. We need to be engaging with them as best as we can and if we can't then we need to present the evidence to the rest of the world in a way that gives Russia nowhere to hide.
		
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No we wouldn't accept the accusation - but then we wouldn't be that likely to do such an attack.  But the point is fair.  Do we know which laboratories have identified the agent as novichok.  Give a sample to Russia - two responses - Yes - we made it but didn't use it - and they are not going to say that as making it is in breach of conventions on chemical warfare; No - nothing to do with us - gets us nowhere.

The point about the economy is that sanctions are hitting Russia's economy very, very hard indeed, and it's manufacturing infrastructure is aging and falling apart; and so Putin will do almost anything that deflects criticism of him over that - and makes out he is standing up for Russia and Russians.   

And though what he does might seem reckless and illogical to us - with acts such as this attack given the obviousness and traceability back to Russia - Putin does not care - it is simply calculated to provoke a response from 'the west' that he can use for his own internal purposes.


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2018)

Happy with May's response, she's shown a bit of leadership over this.

Hard to believe when the USSR broke up and Gorbachev was making a lot of progress bringing Russia toward democracy that that optimism has gone and we've ended up with a dictator like Putin. 18 years in power I think.
I knew Russia's economy was weak and relatively small, they're getting left behind in the economic boom of Brazil, China, Indonesia etc and becoming less relevant in the world. Seems a lot of Putins's posturing is just that.... posturing, trying to act great but are Russians really loyal to him. Apparently he cannot retire or stand down as he has so many enemies he'd be dead in a week.
Sad a once great country like Russia is reduced to the pathetic power games of a bored leader. Nerve gassing an old man and his daughter in a foreign country just to get a reaction. Time Putin's reign was ended.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2018)

Now is the time for Political Unity on this matter.  Corbyn is a nasty piece of work, he will say anything to promote his personal objectives.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2018)

Aside from a photo opportunity not sure why Ms May has taken herself to Salisbury...


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Aside from a photo opportunity not sure why Ms May has taken herself to Salisbury...
		
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Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

She got slated for not going to Grenfell House.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

She got slated for not going to Grenfell House.
		
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Not sure if attending at Salisbury squares for her failure in not going to Grenfell...


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Aside from a photo opportunity not sure why Ms May has taken herself to Salisbury...
		
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It has a nice cathedral.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Now is the time for Political Unity on this matter. * Corbyn is a nasty piece of work, he will say anything to promote his personal objectives.*

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So much for 'Political Unity' then!! 



SocketRocket said:



*Now is the time for Political Unity on this matter.* Corbyn is a nasty piece of work, he will say anything to promote his personal objectives.
		
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But I certainly agree with this!

Universal condemnation by Parliament is what's required imo. And, if worded properly,* might* commit Corbyn to some sort of 'stance' - though I'm pretty sure the 'spin doctors' could manufacture a sufficiently vague/generic response that condemns the action without condemning those obviously (to me) responsible!

The current response - expelling diplomats - is pretty much pointless and counter-productive imo, though it might be a method of getting rid (but with tit for tat consequences) of recognised 'case officers'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Now is the time for Political Unity on this matter.  Corbyn is a nasty piece of work, he will say anything to promote his personal objectives.
		
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i think public opinion on what Corbyn said is split (and split in the Labour party also).  

Where did Political Unity get us with Iraq and the dodgy dossier?  And Blair is castigated endlessly for the approach he took.  

I actually think what Corbyn said was actually OK (I just wish it wasn't Corbyn who was saying it).  I might not have said or asked *all *he yesterday - but he is absolutely correct to ask the questions.  

Yesterday in the Commons was not a moment of national mourning or of addressing a new crisis - a moment that required the country to pull together - it was a moment when the PM laid out her response to Russian's non-response to her challenge of the previous day and it is the responsibility of the Leader of the Opposition to ask the questions on such serious matters that many in the country are asking.  

That is part of what democracy is all about - challenging the decision makers - not just going along with what a one party; one group - or indeed a coterie around the PM might think.  _(See also Brexit - Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy - Taking back control)_

But I'll be honest - at first listening (live) I was not sure - but then that's probably as I really don't like or trust Corbyn


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			i think public opinion on what Corbyn said is split (and split in the Labour party also).  

Where did Political Unity get us with Iraq and the dodgy dossier?  And Blair is castigated endlessly for the approach he took.  

I actually think what Corbyn said was actually OK (I just wish it wasn't Corbyn who was saying it).  I might not have said or asked *all *he yesterday - but he is absolutely correct to ask the questions.  

Yesterday in the Commons was not a moment of national mourning or of addressing a new crisis - a moment that required the country to pull together - it was a moment when the PM laid out her response to Russian's non-response to her challenge of the previous day and it is the responsibility of the Leader of the Opposition to ask the questions on such serious matters that many in the country are asking.  

That is part of what democracy is all about - challenging the decision makers - not just going along with what a one party; one group - or indeed a coterie around the PM might think.  _(See also Brexit - Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy - Taking back control)_

But I'll be honest - at first listening (live) I was not sure - but then that's probably as I really don't like or trust Corbyn
		
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Lets put Brexit to one side, if possible.  When we face a situation of National threat then point scoring party politics is not appropriate.   Holding the Government to account is a different issue and Blair's policy on Iraq was not a parallel.  The USA, France and Germany can stand by us against Putin but Corbyn cant.  He is a nasty piece of work.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The USA, France and Germany can stand by us against Putin but Corbyn cant.
		
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Believe Trump and Macron asked same/similar questions before throwing their hat in the ring...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2018)

Ian Blackford and Nicola Sturgeon giving full support to May after Westminster briefing.
I am OK with that as I trust them, totally different story with May and her cohorts though.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ian Blackford and Nicola Sturgeon giving full support to May after Westminster briefing.
I am OK with that as I trust them, totally different story with May and her cohorts though.
		
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May had said something and you don't trust her.
Two minor politicians back her on something you don't trust now it's all ok 

Are you trusting May on what she said or not?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets put Brexit to one side, if possible.  When we face a situation of National threat then point scoring party politics is not appropriate.   Holding the Government to account is a different issue and Blair's policy on Iraq was not a parallel.  The USA, France and Germany can stand by us against Putin but Corbyn cant.  He is a nasty piece of work.
		
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Whatever you or I think of him - I think what he said and asked was absolutely appropriate.  At the start of the week May set down two scenarios for the attack - _State-sponsored_ or _'Rogue' attack - with state loss of control of nerve agent._.  Nothing has changed.  Both scenarios remain.  May has plumped for the former.  Why?  What has happened to exclude the latter?

May is basically derided by very many - even Tories - as being ineffectual, indecisive and weak.  By many accounts she was useless as Home Secretary - could get nothing done.  So why on earth would we suddenly and uncritically go along with her assessment now?  We don't or shouldn't - we should expect our representatives to quiz the PM on the decision.  

It is I suggest not unreasonable to be thinking that May is playing the '_State-sponsored attack_' card as it is something that she can appear strong and decisive in response to - partly in hope of bolstering her general standing and appearance of being in control and strong.

And in this we cannot just ignore Brexit - and her role in it - especially on her setting down the red lines at the outset that are causing so many issues.  She decided to act strong - adopting the EU-bad - Brexit means Brexit - a Red White and Blue Brexit - to appeal to those who demanded that and that she felt she had to appease.  And look where *that* hard line is getting us in the negotiations.

So when it comes to her taking a hardline against Russia we are absolutely entitled to question her rationale closely.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2018)

"Rogue attack;" the state still has responsibility for the holding of said nerve agents. Has Russia said someone nicked it? No. May's rationale is based on the security briefings she receives. Its not a finger in the wind exercise, and after the Iraq dodgy dossiers she'd be stupid not to be 110% on this before choosing a course of action. Those briefings were shared with Corbyn prior to her speaking in the House. I would fully expect him to question them during the security briefings but when it comes to something as serious as an attack on Britain, don't forget 21 people ended up in hospital, then I expect him to show a uniform front. 

I much prefer Yvette Cooper's take on it all. And if you want to see someone take May to task, watch some of Cooper's questioning of May in recent times. Cooper hasn't sided with May on this, she has recognised the need for unity in the face of an act of war.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2018)

What May needs to do is get hold of her cabinet and decide on message.  With the Defence Secretary telling Russia to _'shut up and go away' _- as Private Pike might have said to nasty Germans - and our Foreign Secretary (already a serious world player - yeh!) telling us that it is_ 'overwhelmingly likely that Putin ordered this nerve agent attack'_.  Well don't we have serious players on the world stage.  This is ludicrous.  The Russia's will just simply laugh at this language and nonsense. 

It was most likely the Russian state - and sure - we might never get evidence to *prove* the Russian state was behind the attack - but to simply throw in a _'Putin ordered it'_ at this point when we actually have no evidence whatsoever (that has been provided) to back that up - is surely seriously kicking the hornets nest - and makes Corbyn's words cautioning against speaking and acting in haste seem rather apt.

Get a grip of your cabinet PM - this isn't Argentina invading the Falklands!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"Rogue attack;" the state still has responsibility for the holding of said nerve agents. Has Russia said someone nicked it? No. May's rationale is based on the security briefings she receives. Its not a finger in the wind exercise, and after the Iraq dodgy dossiers she'd be stupid not to be 110% on this before choosing a course of action. Those briefings were shared with Corbyn prior to her speaking in the House. I would fully expect him to question them during the security briefings but when it comes to something as serious as an attack on Britain, don't forget 21 people ended up in hospital, then I expect him to show a uniform front. 

I much prefer Yvette Cooper's take on it all. And if you want to see someone take May to task, watch some of Cooper's questioning of May in recent times. Cooper hasn't sided with May on this, she has recognised the need for unity in the face of an act of war.
		
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Corbyn seemed generally supportive of May's actions - he simply questioned the rationale behind blaming the Russian state and ruling out a 'rogue' group.

Was not the aligning of the whole HoC behind Blair on the evidence of the dossier from Colin Powell based upon such a call for unity in the face of a threat?  Where are those who now vehemently chastise Blair and call him a war criminal for acting on what is now referred to as a 'dodgy dossier' now on this?


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Corbyn seemed generally supportive of May's actions - he simply questioned the rationale behind blaming the Russian state and ruling out a 'rogue' group.

Was not the aligning of the whole HoC behind Blair on the evidence of the dossier from Colin Powell based upon such a call for unity in the face of a threat?  Where are those who now vehemently chastise Blair and call him a war criminal for acting on what is now referred to as a 'dodgy dossier' now on this?
		
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There was a question on Question Time last night from a member of the audience which, for me, nails the blame for the nerve agent attack firmly on Russia's door. Who wanted Skripal dead? Let's take out what was used and look at who the target was and who wanted him dead?

Would a rogue nation target Skripal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There was a question on Question Time last night from a member of the audience which, for me, nails the blame for the nerve agent attack firmly on Russia's door. Who wanted Skripal dead? Let's take out what was used and look at who the target was and who wanted him dead?

Would a rogue nation target Skripal?
		
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I don't think anyone has been mentioning another a rogue nation - certainly May didn't on Monday when she challenged Russia and neither did Corbyn.  There are plenty of rogue elements and groups in Russia and the wider world - including Russian mafia sorts in the UK - who might well have reason to get rid of Skripal - who knows what business he was involved in.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think anyone has been mentioning another a rogue nation - certainly May didn't on Monday when she challenged Russia and neither did Corbyn.  There are plenty of rogue elements and groups in Russia and the wider world - including Russian mafia sorts in the UK - who might well have reason to get rid of Skripal - who knows what business he was involved in.
		
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Skripal is retired. Why would a retiree be of interest to the Russian mafia? In a country that has such a straight jacketed lifestyle the mafia can walk in to a heavily guarded facility and help themselves to nerve agents? Putin has rogue groups? The most powerful man in the world has anarchy around him? Really, seriously really?


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2018)

Pray tell then where did the Russian mafia get hold of military grade chemical weapons from without the authorities knowing it's gone missing. If Russia had held their hands up and admitted it went missing in the 90s like many of their small weapon systems the outcome might have been different.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There was a question on Question Time last night from a member of the audience which, for me, nails the blame for the nerve agent attack firmly on Russia's door. Who wanted Skripal dead? Let's take out what was used and look at who the target was and who wanted him dead?

Would a rogue nation target Skripal?
		
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He was a double, perhaps triple, agent responsible for the death of many spies on all sides of the divide.
Not a difficult thing to understand that he would have had many enemies from many states.

Why did the Russians just not make him 'vanish' when he was in one of their jails for eight years.


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why did the Russians just not make him 'vanish' when he was in one of their jails for eight years.
		
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Perhaps somone had a thought he may be useful as a bargaining chip to get started me of their own boys home.

Perhaps !


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever you or I think of him - I think what he said and asked was absolutely appropriate.  At the start of the week May set down two scenarios for the attack - _State-sponsored_ or _'Rogue' attack - with state loss of control of nerve agent._.  Nothing has changed.  Both scenarios remain.  May has plumped for the former.  Why?  What has happened to exclude the latter?

May is basically derided by very many - even Tories - as being ineffectual, indecisive and weak.  By many accounts she was useless as Home Secretary - could get nothing done.  So why on earth would we suddenly and uncritically go along with her assessment now?  We don't or shouldn't - we should expect our representatives to quiz the PM on the decision.  

It is I suggest not unreasonable to be thinking that May is playing the '_State-sponsored attack_' card as it is something that she can appear strong and decisive in response to - partly in hope of bolstering her general standing and appearance of being in control and strong.

*And in this we cannot just ignore Brexit - and her role in it - especially on her setting down the red lines at the outset that are causing so many issues.  She decided to act strong - adopting the EU-bad - Brexit means Brexit - a Red White and Blue Brexit - to appeal to those who demanded that and that she felt she had to appease.  And look where that hard line is getting us in the negotiations.*

So when it comes to her taking a hardline against Russia we are absolutely entitled to question her rationale closely.
		
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You just cant help yourself!   You cant discuss anything much without suggesting it has a connection to Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2018)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43486054

Ian Blackford doing Corbyn's job once again.

This is a big can of worms that I cannot see ending well for the UK.


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## IanM (Mar 21, 2018)

Facebook made me vote for x, y or z???   :rofl:

There are plenty of actual "foreign" and domestic influences meddling directly in democracy.....


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Facebook made me vote for x, y or z???   :rofl:

There are plenty of actual "foreign" and domestic influences meddling directly in democracy.....
		
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Quite strange how some need the media and seem so strongly influenced by it to make up their mind.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2018)

So mophead Boris throws down another gauntlet.. Putin-World Cup = Hitler Olympics... will she sack him now??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2018)

Mudball said:



			So mophead Boris throws down another gauntlet.. Putin-World Cup = Hitler Olympics... will she sack him now??
		
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He's a genius - top man - and he should have been Prime Minister.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2018)

IanM said:



			Facebook made me vote for x, y or z???   :rofl:

There are plenty of actual "foreign" and domestic influences meddling directly in democracy.....
		
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Whilst in an earlier non digital world the Tory's only had the Sun, Mail and Express.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's a genius - top man - and he should have been Prime Minister.
		
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You really should stop reading the mail, he would be a disaster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			You really should stop reading the mail, he would be a disaster.
		
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OK then, it'll have to be Rees-Mogg or Leadsome - both top drawer big hitters that the general man and woman in the street can relate to...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2018)

May seems to have done well pulling together a consensus across the board on the Russia issue - well done to her.  Credit where credit is due - though if she couldn't on this well...

And good to see the vast majority of EU nations pulling together with the UK - this of course being the EU that we have rejected and who we have told that we think we'll be largely better off apart by ourselves - and also that EU that some are so determined to tell us feel nothing but ill-will towards us.

But good on May - and thankyou to the EU - the whole UK should be expressing it's gratitude to you for working with May and providing your undiluted and ongoing support at this difficult time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2018)

Back to turning a thread on its head and making it about your favorite topic. There was me thinking Germany, France and the others had their own embassies in Russia and the expulsions were done under the governments of those countries.


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## Slime (Mar 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May seems to have done well pulling together a consensus across the board on the Russia issue - well done to her.  Credit where credit is due - though if she couldn't on this well...

*And good to see the vast majority of EU nations pulling together with the UK - this of course being the EU that we have rejected and who we have told that we think we'll be largely better off apart by ourselves *- and also that EU that some are so determined to tell us feel nothing but ill-will towards us.

But good on May - and thankyou to the EU - the whole UK should be expressing it's gratitude to you for working with May and providing your undiluted and ongoing support at this difficult time.
		
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And good to see the vast majority of European nations pulling together  with the UK - this of course being the European continent that we are part of, have been for quite a while, and will still be the case when we leave the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2018)

Slime said:



			And good to see the vast majority of European nations pulling together  with the UK - this of course being the European continent that we are part of, have been for quite a while, and will still be the case when we leave the EU.
		
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Whilst it is good to keep close to your enemies it is best to keep close to your friends and not make enemies of them 

And in respect of what the PM has done working with Juncker, Tusk and EU leaders in not only getting a broad consensus but also getting action - I think it is fair to observe that May has done this in an EU environment that has not been 100% positive over the last 18 months.  It is just as well that the EU leaders are not the nasty anti-UK charlatans that some would have them be.

So that when Juncker said that 'Britain will regret leaving the EU' we can appreciate that maybe he was indeed saying it in a _'disappointed for the UK' _way (perhaps pushing it to say a 'caring way') and not a threatening way as some had us believe.

I think the EU truly believes that we are much better together with the EU27 than apart.  And this event has shown what a united EU can do in supporting one of it's member nations, and I suspect that our PM believes this also - hence her ability to pull this together.  

Well done to the PM.


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## IanM (Mar 27, 2018)

Juncker meant, "Crikey, who is going to pay to fund my opulent lifestyle if the UK stops paying in."    He is seldom sober enough to be able to locate Russia on a map!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh dear - what a mess.  Unfortunately the woman seems completely deluded and in denial about Brexit, and just rather incompetent in general as exemplified by the current immigration scandal.  I thought she had decent basic principles from her belief and faith that would result in her own personal red lines.  She may indeed have such red lines but seems to be willing to cross them for the sake of the conservative party.  

My great hope for her is that she remembers her basics and decides to be honest with the electorate over Brexit - and specifically over the NI/EU border conundrum.  Does she have the backbone to tell us that there is no border-free solution unless the UK stays in the customs union; that if we leave the CU then we risk re-igniting the NI troubles no matter what sort of border control is put in place.

I doubt she'd follow that up by telling us that if we can't leave the CU then there is little point in leaving the EU given all the other costs,drawbacks and complications.

Overall I am afraid top say that Mrs May is currently failing big time left-right and centre.  I had hoped for a lot better - with her being seemingly the best of a pretty rum bunch.


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## PNWokingham (Apr 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - what a mess.  Unfortunately the woman seems completely deluded and in denial about Brexit, and just rather incompetent in general as exemplified by the current immigration scandal.  I thought she had decent basic principles from her belief and faith that would result in her own personal red lines.  She may indeed have such red lines but seems to be willing to cross them for the sake of the conservative party.  

My great hope for her is that she remembers her basics and decides to be honest with the electorate over Brexit - and specifically over the NI/EU border conundrum.  Does she have the backbone to tell us that there is no border-free solution unless the UK stays in the customs union; that if we leave the CU then we risk re-igniting the NI troubles no matter what sort of border control is put in place.

I doubt she'd follow that up by telling us that if we can't leave the CU then there is little point in leaving the EU given all the other costs,drawbacks and complications.

Overall I am afraid top say that Mrs May is currently failing big time left-right and centre.  I had hoped for a lot better - with her being seemingly the best of a pretty rum bunch.
		
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yawn yawn yawn......


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - what a mess.  Unfortunately the woman seems completely deluded and in denial about Brexit, and just rather incompetent in general as exemplified by the current immigration scandal.  I thought she had decent basic principles from her belief and faith that would result in her own personal red lines.  She may indeed have such red lines but seems to be willing to cross them for the sake of the conservative party.  

My great hope for her is that she remembers her basics and decides to be honest with the electorate over Brexit - and specifically over the NI/EU border conundrum.  Does she have the backbone to tell us that there is no border-free solution unless the UK stays in the customs union; that if we leave the CU then we risk re-igniting the NI troubles no matter what sort of border control is put in place.

I doubt she'd follow that up by telling us that if we can't leave the CU then there is little point in leaving the EU given all the other costs,drawbacks and complications.

Overall I am afraid top say that Mrs May is currently failing big time left-right and centre.  I had hoped for a lot better - with her being seemingly the best of a pretty rum bunch.
		
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Various opinion polls have, consistently, since the turn of the year seen May's stature as leader increasing. Bearing in mind how badly she was faring in the polls in Q3/Q4 last year, that's a significant turn around...

That said, Corbyn has spent most of the last 3 months with his foot in his mouth. However, several of the polls have measured May on how she's dealing with some very difficult issues, not how she compares with Leonid Corbyn.

I don't like her as PM, but I have a grudging respect for her performance in difficult times. And I certainly don't see it as the abject failure you do.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 21, 2018)

In response to the last two posts, I could not of put it better.&#128077;


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## Slime (Apr 21, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			In response to the last two posts, I could not of put it better.&#62541;
		
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Me neither.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Various opinion polls have, consistently, since the turn of the year seen May's stature as leader increasing. Bearing in mind how badly she was faring in the polls in Q3/Q4 last year, that's a significant turn around...

That said, Corbyn has spent most of the last 3 months with his foot in his mouth. However, several of the polls have measured May on how she's dealing with some very difficult issues, not how she compares with Leonid Corbyn.

I don't like her as PM, but I have a grudging respect for her performance in difficult times. And I certainly don't see it as the abject failure you do.
		
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Is this the same Corbyn who said we shouldn't have reacted in Syria without a UN mandate who has voted against any action even when a UN mandate has been achieved, the same Corbyn who said there will be no second Brexit vote, nobody seems to have told his 2IC. The same Corbyn who holds venezuela as the bastion of economic policies.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 21, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Is this the same Corbyn who said we shouldn't have reacted in Syria without a UN mandate who has voted against any action even when a UN mandate has been achieved, the same Corbyn who said there will be no second Brexit vote, nobody seems to have told his 2IC. The same Corbyn who holds venezuela as the bastion of economic policies.
		
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Non of which has any bearing whatsoever on if May is up to the job, which is the thread title. In fact if I did not know better I would say 'deflection tactics' or whataboutery as I am sure there is a thread about comrade Corbyn.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Non of which has any bearing whatsoever on if May is up to the job, which is the thread title. In fact if I did not know better I would say 'deflection tactics' or whataboutery as I am sure there is a thread about comrade Corbyn.
		
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Just mentioning an option. May's not been that good but compared to the Labour Leader she is streets ahead.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 21, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Just mentioning an option. May's not been that good *but compared to the Labour Leader she is streets ahead.[*/QUOTE]

Matter of opinion which is fine.  But I'd at least hope the proponents of May have a better argument than 'she's not Corbyn'.
		
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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:





Old Skier said:



			Just mentioning an option. May's not been that good *but compared to the Labour Leader she is streets ahead.[*/QUOTE]

Matter of opinion which is fine.  But I'd at least hope the proponents of May have a better argument than 'she's not Corbyn'.
		
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If her Aunty had a willy She'd be her Uncle.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2018)

SAS chief saying that no one in the British military believes that Assad used chemical weapons.
Big call, going against the 'intelligence and political' guys.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SAS chief saying that no one in the British military believes that Assad used chemical weapons.
Big call, going against the 'intelligence and political' guys.
		
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No he didn't. The Chief of the SAS has said nothing. DfT the sender of misinformation.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2018)

Loving it that some appear to be worried about Jezza...

Reinforces the complete Horlicks Tezza is making of governance...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			No he didn't. The Chief of the SAS has said nothing. DfT the sender of misinformation.
		
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OK Mr Pendant......former chief


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2018)

Nobody worries about Jeeza. It's those he surrounds himself with that people need to be concerned with.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody worries about Jeeza. It's those he surrounds himself with that people need to be concerned with.
		
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I think we should be more concerned about the performance of those who currently wield the power, than with those who might in the future.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 22, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody worries about Jeeza. It's those he surrounds himself with that people need to be concerned with.
		
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Again, if the best you can come up with is that she is not Jezza's mates then that's not much of an endorsement of her and does not fill me with a huge amount of confidence.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think we should be more concerned about the performance of those who currently wield the power, than with those who might in the future.
		
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Are you suggesting that the opposition have no power and are a waste of time, if that's so then tell me why we pay members of the opposition.

Anyone who follows politics and not just the headline grabbing side know that both sides of the HOC have been know to do some good work.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody worries about Jeeza. It's those he surrounds himself with that people need to be concerned with.
		
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I rather suspect Tezza is way more worried about backstabber BoJo than of us are of Jezza's cohorts...


Et tu Boris ...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK Mr Pendant......former chief
		
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I had promised myself that I would not post on  political issues. 

However, in this case I will make an exception just to ask if it is Major General Holmes to whom you are referring?

If so you should perhaps qualify your comments by referencing that gentleman's membership of the British Syrian Society, an organisation supportive of the Syrian Government  and headed by Assad's father in law.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK Mr Pendant......former chief
		
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And now just Mr Civvy like the rest of us, but you as always try to mislead. Nothing pendantic about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting that the opposition have no power and are a waste of time, if that's so then tell me why we pay members of the opposition.

Anyone who follows politics and not just the headline grabbing side know that both sides of the HOC have been know to do some good work.
		
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The opposition are responsible for holding the government to task in the eyes of the electorate by raising and highlighting issues and concerns; explaining any negative impact of a government policy or proposal; and for suggesting alternatives.  When the government has a majority opposition power is with the electorate rather than government policy.

So don't let's try and deflect focus away from the performance of May and her government over the Windrush scandal and Brexit (which btw a poll out today suggests that only 18% of the 220,000 respondents think that a good job is being done) by throwing in this that and the other about what Labour and Corbyn *might * do *if *they were ever in government.


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## patricks148 (Apr 23, 2018)

i wonder if she would be  as ready to bomb Saudi if they used chemical weapons on Yemen???


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 23, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i wonder if she would be  as ready to bomb Saudi if they used chemical weapons on Yemen???
		
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Unlikely, the shareholders of the UK arms companies who sell them all that weaponry would be outraged and stop donating all that money to her party


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2018)

Bottom line for me is that Mrs May has - I believe - completely betrayed her christian beliefs and principles over immigration controls; the Windrush generation, and indeed Brexit.  So not only is she personally responsible for much of the current scandal and omnishambles - but by acting against her beliefs and principles she is compromised within herself, that makes her personally weak and vulnerable.  Notwithstanding all the difficulties and problems that would result - May should resign.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 23, 2018)

The Tories went after the UKIP, Britain First and 'staunch' Unionist votes and it has led then to where they are today.
I think the 'average' Brit will take note of this come the next election.

Hopefully a new political party will arrive on the scene to balance out out the two extremist parties.


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## User62651 (Apr 23, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Tories went after the UKIP, Britain First and 'staunch' Unionist votes and it has led then to where they are today.
I think the 'average' Brit will take note of this come the next election.

Hopefully a *new political party* will arrive on the scene to balance out out the two extremist parties.
		
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New Lib Dems....................................I'll get me coat

May's had the hardest PM gig in several generations I think. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Between Brexit/EU, Grenfell, Terrorist attacks in London/Manchester, Windrush, dementia tax, General Election failure, Syria/Middle East, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Minister sackings/resignation etc etc she's certainly had a busy 22 months or so lurching from crisis to crisis. Most new PMs come in on a wave of hope and optimism and get a couple of years grace to see how they go but not her, thrown into Camerons mess with a seething divided electorate, just into a Tory second term. It could be too much for almost any PM before her too. Thankless task. Not saying she's any good but not sure how many others would fare much better.
If she can stop the u-turns and get some media coaching to become less Maybot.....and a little bit of luck.....then she may be PM longer than we think.
#anyonebutBoris.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			New Lib Dems....................................I'll get me coat

May's had the hardest PM gig in several generations I think. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Between Brexit/EU, Grenfell, Terrorist attacks in London/Manchester, Windrush, dementia tax, General Election failure, Syria/Middle East, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Minister sackings/resignation etc etc she's certainly had a busy 22 months or so lurching from crisis to crisis. Most new PMs come in on a wave of hope and optimism and get a couple of years grace to see how they go but not her, thrown into Camerons mess with a seething divided electorate, just into a Tory second term. It could be too much for almost any PM before her too. Thankless task. Not saying she's any good but not sure how many others would fare much better.
If she can stop the u-turns and get some media coaching to become less Maybot.....and a little bit of luck.....then she may be PM longer than we think.
#anyonebutBoris.

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I don't disagree with your analysis.  But where I may differ is that I don't think her heart is in it.  I think she may well be conflicted in herself in that she has compromised her faith-based core beliefs.  And this makes her weak and vulnerable - indeed just too weak to actually stands up for what she believes is right and proclaims it loudly and clearly to be heard by all those politicians (who need not be named) and those in the press (Paul Dacre - are you listening - do you care?) who have driven the government and indeed the country to this terrible mess.


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## User62651 (Apr 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't disagree with your analysis.  But where I may differ is that I don't think her heart is in it.  I think she may well be conflicted in herself in that she has compromised her faith-based core beliefs.  And this makes her weak and vulnerable - indeed just too weak to actually stands up for what she believes is right and proclaims it loudly and clearly to be heard by all those politicians (who need not be named) and those in the press (Paul Dacre - are you listening - do you care?) who have driven the government and indeed the country to this terrible mess.
		
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Ever think she proclaims to having a faith in order to conform to what is expected of a PM and Tory leader? Say you're an athiest as a politician (even today) and especially as a political leader and you'll be held back as some kind of dangerous radical, old fashioned attitude but still true sadly I think especailly with the power the Church still holds in our Society, this despite a largely secular electorate out there. I doubt her faith has much to do with it tbh. 
She has tough challenges day after day and isn't meeting them all that well, bit out of her depth but I think her heart is in it, clearly politically motivated to get to Home Sec and when chasing PM position. I think she's just not a good people person, lacks warmth and humour and has next to no inspirational qualities, like Major and Brown before her a bit dull maybe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Ever think she proclaims to having a faith in order to conform to what is expected of a PM and Tory leader? Say you're an athiest as a politician (even today) and especially as a political leader and you'll be held back as some kind of dangerous radical, old fashioned attitude but still true sadly I think especailly with the power the Church still holds in our Society, this despite a largely secular electorate out there. I doubt her faith has much to do with it tbh. 
She has tough challenges day after day and isn't meeting them all that well, bit out of her depth but I think her heart is in it, clearly politically motivated to get to Home Sec and when chasing PM position. I think she's just not a good people person, lacks warmth and humour and has next to no inspirational qualities, like Major and Brown before her bit of a dullard maybe.
		
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Possibly - but I think a church-going vicar's daughter might really struggle to fake her faith.  I have a suspicion that her political toughness is superficial - an act - an act that she has had to develop in order to succeed in her chosen profession (I might add -as a woman).  

And it is the conflict within, between her act as HS and now PM and her beliefs, that is manifest by her rather awkward manner and quite poor communication skills.  We hear it in her speeches - when she cannot convincingly and authetically speak on toughness; tough measures and on a Brexit that she might well believe will be most harmful to the poorest of the country - those very people that she would have got into politics to help.  

She was, for me, at her most convincing and authentic (probably the last time) when she made her speech outside #10 after having become PM.  And I said at the time that maybe just maybe she'd be good...

But at that point she was not completely mired in and faced by the mess we now have.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 23, 2018)

I'd just like to point out you don't need to have faith to be a thoroughly decent person...

And, not having faith doesn't make you a bad person either...

Probably the mix of religion and politics is a way to arriving at poor decisions...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I'd just like to point out you don't need to have faith to be a thoroughly decent person...

And, not having faith doesn't make you a bad person either...

Probably the mix of religion and politics is a way to arriving at poor decisions...
		
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I'd take that further. Having faith doesn't make you either bad or good in itself. It certainly does not automatically make people good people. I have met far too many nasty people who roll up to church every Sunday as that somehow absolves them of their unpleasantness. People can be nice and nasty with or without faith.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Ever think she proclaims to having a faith in order to conform to what is expected of a PM and Tory leader? Say you're an athiest as a politician (even today) and especially as a political leader and you'll be held back as some kind of dangerous radical, old fashioned attitude but still true sadly I think especailly with the power the Church still holds in our Society, this despite a largely secular electorate out there. I doubt her faith has much to do with it tbh. 
She has tough challenges day after day and isn't meeting them all that well, bit out of her depth but I think her heart is in it, clearly politically motivated to get to Home Sec and when chasing PM position. I think she's just not a good people person, lacks warmth and humour and has next to no inspirational qualities, like Major and Brown before her a bit dull maybe.
		
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Well said, very good summary.
May is pretty inept yet Corbyn and Cable cant lay a glove on her.
The sad state of British politics.


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## hors limite (Apr 23, 2018)

Her body language betrays how conflicted she is by the absurdity of the Brexit line she feels obliged to follow - a duty to hold her party together against the folly of the harm towards her country. One can only hope that her faith will put her fellow citizens first.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Her body language betrays how conflicted she is by the absurdity of the Brexit line she feels obliged to follow - a duty to hold her party together against the folly of the harm towards her country. One can only hope that her faith will put her fellow citizens first.
		
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It does - and I hope it will


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The opposition are responsible for holding the government to task in the eyes of the electorate by raising and highlighting issues and concerns; explaining any negative impact of a government policy or proposal; and for suggesting alternatives.  When the government has a majority opposition power is with the electorate rather than government policy.

So don't let's try and deflect focus away from the performance of May and her government over the Windrush scandal and Brexit (which btw a poll out today suggests that only 18% of the 220,000 respondents think that a good job is being done) by throwing in this that and the other about what Labour and Corbyn *might * do *if *they were ever in government.
		
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It might be revealing to let everyone know the source for those figures. If the population of Sunderland was polled do think it would be 18%? Whereas the figures you quote are from a specific demographic group who, quite frankly, I'd expect to see that result. I do wish you'd be balanced in your reporting/quoting - wasn't that the very thing you've criticised the Leave campaign of, biassed/skewed figures?



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bottom line for me is that Mrs May has - I believe - completely betrayed her christian beliefs and principles over immigration controls; the Windrush generation, and indeed Brexit.  So not only is she personally responsible for much of the current scandal and omnishambles - but by acting against her beliefs and principles she is compromised within herself, that makes her personally weak and vulnerable.  Notwithstanding all the difficulties and problems that would result - May should resign.
		
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You know her beliefs and principles that well? She's spoken to you, intimately, about her beliefs and principles? I'm sure many of us know her background, and may also recognise she is a politician who, like many, can be a little circumspect with the facts. But I'd bet my house no one actually knows her beliefs and principles anything like well enough to make the massive leap you've made, unless of course they've had the same in-depth conversation you appear to have had.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			It might be revealing to let everyone know the source for those figures. If the population of Sunderland was polled do think it would be 18%? Whereas the figures you quote are from a specific demographic group who, quite frankly, I'd expect to see that result. I do wish you'd be balanced in your reporting/quoting - wasn't that the very thing you've criticised the Leave campaign of, biassed/skewed figures?
		
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https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/big-brexit-survey-eu-uk-single-market-membership/




			You know her beliefs and principles that well? She's spoken to you, intimately, about her beliefs and principles? I'm sure many of us know her background, and may also recognise she is a politician who, like many, can be a little circumspect with the facts. But I'd bet my house no one actually knows her beliefs and principles anything like well enough to make the massive leap you've made, unless of course they've had the same in-depth conversation you appear to have had.
		
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ristian-faith-helps-make-difficult-decisions/


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2018)

PM May who helped introduce the two child benefit cap and rape clause unveils statue to Millicent Fawcett........who said irony was dead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2018)

And I'll add that if she uses her faith, as she describes in the Telegraph article, in the way that I do - then she might well (I'd say that she *should) *) be really struggling with the Windrush Generation scandal; the way that immigration has been 'weaponised' by the right and she has ridden that 'horse' for political gain; and the harm that Brexit will quite possibly inflict on the poorest in the UK.


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## drdel (Apr 24, 2018)

I wonder how many have died in the name of a 'faith' and from the self righteous preaching of the enlightened.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			I wonder how many have died in the name of a 'faith' and from the self righteous preaching of the enlightened.
		
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Only the disdainful and the cynical...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			PM May who helped introduce the two child benefit cap unveils statue to Millicent Fawcett........who said irony was dead.
		
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 I'm not sure the suffragettes marched for the state to fund large families.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			PM May unveils statue to Millicent Fawcett........who said irony was dead.
		
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Strange post at 1045 hrs as the statue wasn't unveiled untill 1100 hrs and by school children.

At best deliberately misleading, at worst a deliberate lie, which one this time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43881609/millicent-fawcett-first-woman-statue-on-parliament-square


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure the suffragettes marched for the state to fund large families.
		
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How about the rape clause then, do you think they would have marched against that


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Strange post at 1045 hrs as the statue wasn't unveiled untill 1100 hrs and by school children.

At best deliberately misleading, at worst a deliberate lie, which one this time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43881609/millicent-fawcett-first-woman-statue-on-parliament-square

Click to expand...

Mr Pendant strikes again................:whoo:

Out of interest.........what are your views on the rape clause ?
I will assume you have the same views as his Lordship on the two child benefit cap.


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## 2blue (Apr 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - what a mess.  Unfortunately the woman seems completely deluded and in denial about Brexit, and just rather incompetent in general as exemplified by the current immigration scandal.  I thought she had decent basic principles from her belief and faith that would result in her own personal red lines.  She may indeed have such red lines but seems to be willing to cross them for the sake of the conservative party.  

My great hope for her is that she remembers her basics and decides to be honest with the electorate over Brexit - and specifically over the NI/EU border conundrum.  Does she have the backbone to tell us that there is no border-free solution unless the UK stays in the customs union; that if we leave the CU then we risk re-igniting the NI troubles no matter what sort of border control is put in place.

I doubt she'd follow that up by telling us that if we can't leave the CU then there is little point in leaving the EU given all the other costs,drawbacks and complications.

Overall I am afraid top say that Mrs May is currently failing big time left-right and centre.  I had hoped for a lot better - with her being seemingly the best of a pretty rum bunch.
		
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I think you've pretty much covered it there....  there'll always be those, easily led, who believe the Tory publicity machine & their press.
Like Cammeroooon ...  she's another failed leader with flawed judgement...  gonna be replaced by either JC or by her own shower next election.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2018)

2blue said:



			I think you've pretty much covered it there....  there'll always be those, easily led, who believe the Tory publicity machine & their press.
Like Cammeroooon ...  she's another failed leader with flawed judgement...  gonna be replaced by either JC or by her own shower next election.
		
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And those that believe the red tops are all super intellectuals ...

I think she's very much a paper tiger. I dread to think who will follow her as Tory leader. A more centric Labour would wipe the floor with the Tories, but when you read of so many life long Labour supporters turning their backs on the party because of Momentum and the far left...bring back David Miliband


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mr Pendant strikes again................:whoo:

Out of interest.........what are your views on the rape clause ?
I will assume you have the same views as his Lordship on the two child benefit cap.
		
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So you continue to call call me a Pendant and you continue to lie but as it's the tinternet I presume you feel publishing fact is not a requirement.

As to Mrs May, if you remove your blinkers you will  have read my views already on the lady.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So you continue to call call me a Pendant and you continue to lie but as it's the tinternet I presume you feel publishing fact is not a requirement.

As to Mrs May, if you remove your blinkers you will  have read my views already on the lady.
		
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.....and your views on the rape clause [which you carefully avoided]............are....................?

BTW not just me then https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-unveils-statue-feminist-trailblazer-12419375


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## 2blue (Apr 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And those that believe the red tops are all super intellectuals ...

I think she's very much a paper tiger. I dread to think who will follow her as Tory leader. A more centric Labour would wipe the floor with the Tories, but when you read of so many life long Labour supporters turning their backs on the party because of Momentum and the far left...bring back David Miliband
		
Click to expand...

Aye, there are parts of the North that have gone, rite soft......  forgetting their roots...... the desperation that footie causes, spilling over, perhaps :rofl:


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about the rape clause then, do you think they would have marched against that
		
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I specifically removed that from my post. Yes, I believe they would have marched against that.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.....and your views on the rape clause [which you carefully avoided]............are....................?

BTW not just me then https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-unveils-statue-feminist-trailblazer-12419375

Click to expand...

There 118 pages for you to read to find out what I may have said on the matter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

My goodness - May is going to have to be nifty on her feet to navigate the questions around what she knew about the targets Rudd was denying knowledge of the existence of to parliamentary committee - when as Rudd was making these denials May knew that Rudd knew of the targets - or at least May knew that there were targets.  So why did May stay schtum?  

Very much doubt May will go over this but May certainly has some very pointed questions to answer - that is if Corbyn and Abbott can keep their excitement under control enough to ask the questions in a pointed way - and there is always that doubt.  If only Yvette Cooper was Shadow Home Secretary or Leader of the opposition then Labour might get some penetrative questions being asked of May.


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## IanM (Apr 30, 2018)

Liam Byrne is bricking it this morning then?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2018)

IanM said:



			Liam Byrne is bricking it this morning then?
		
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Wasn't he in Westlife?  Or was it Boyzone? I always get them confused.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My goodness - May is going to have to be nifty on her feet to navigate the questions around what she knew about the targets Rudd was denying knowledge of the existence of to parliamentary committee - when as Rudd was making these denials May knew that Rudd knew of the targets - or at least May knew that there were targets.  So why did May stay schtum?  

Very much doubt May will go over this but May certainly has some very pointed questions to answer - that is if Corbyn and Abbott can keep their excitement under control enough to ask the questions in a pointed way - and there is always that doubt.  *If only Yvette Cooper was Shadow Home Secretary or Leader of the opposition then Labour might get some penetrative questions being asked of May.*

Click to expand...

I agree, the fact that you have Dianne Abbott, who I don't think is nearly as bad as some do but appreciate she has a perceived credibility issue, trying to hold her to account does not help.  Talk about missing an own goal.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree, the fact that you have Dianne Abbott, who I don't think is nearly as bad as some do but appreciate she has a perceived credibility issue, trying to hold her to account does not help.  Talk about missing an own goal.
		
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Really, Abbott not as bad as perceived?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZ262b7wBI


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Really, Abbott not as bad as perceived?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZ262b7wBI

Click to expand...

See my comments on the DA thread.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 30, 2018)

Latest poll.

Scots who support the UK government ...14%.
Scots who support Independence 46%.

Wow...there is a big 'undecided' factor there.


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## Fish (Apr 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree, *the fact that you have Dianne Abbott, who I don't think is nearly as bad as some do but appreciate she has a perceived credibility issue,* trying to hold her to account does not help.  Talk about missing an own goal.
		
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:rofl:

Terrorist lover like her leader :angry:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 30, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest poll.

Scots who support the UK government ...14%.
Scots who support Independence 46%.

Wow...there is a big 'undecided' factor there.
		
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Not really but itâ€™s quite clear you are trying to link people not supporting the government to wanting to leave the UK - two clearly different things but your anti English bitterness wonâ€™t see that 

That poll result clearly means that 54% donâ€™t support independence 

But here is another poll saying only 32% support independence 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....for-scottish-independence-at-32-1-4683018/amp

But itâ€™s just a poll and they fluctuate- the definitive answer was what happened at the actual vote a couple years back which was what again ? You can remind us


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 30, 2018)

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1413800-scottish-and-uk-governments-work-badly-together-say-99/

Here is another one that tells us what we already know about Westminster and Holyrood.


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## IanM (Apr 30, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest poll.

Scots who support the UK government ...14%.
Scots who support Independence 46%.

Wow...there is a big 'undecided' factor there.
		
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If you are going to demonstrate your own lack of understanding... misusing stats in a surefire way of doing it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest poll.

Scots who support the UK government ...14%.
Scots who support Independence 46%.

Wow...there is a big 'undecided' factor there.
		
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If if it's true!

Someone belong to SILH school of economics.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See my comments on the DA thread.
		
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Why?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Why?
		
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Probably something about Brexit!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably something about Brexit!
		
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Not at all...the link was to something about Diane Abbott.  But rather than comment on Dianne Abbott further on a thread about Theresa May I just mentioned that I'd made my thoughts on DA clear on the DA thread.  Whatever the truth of her capabilities and commitments it is a fact that, in many of her public utterances, she is a liability for the Labour Party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2018)

Being reported in the Evening Standard,  May vetoing request from the Health and Social Care Secretary to raise cap on skilled-immigration. Hundreds of doctors being refused visas. What is she doing? - an utter mess.  And apparently the same is happening in the tech business community. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-allow-in-more-overseas-doctors-nhs-shortages


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Being reported in the Evening Standard,  May vetoing request from the Health and Social Care Secretary to raise cap on skilled-immigration. Hundreds of doctors being refused visas. What is she doing? - an utter mess.  And apparently the same is happening in the tech business community. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-allow-in-more-overseas-doctors-nhs-shortages

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the truth is even worse than the article, which says 100 Indian doctors. Over 400 doctors have been refused visas since the turn of the year. Having been on the receiving end of having an op put back due "winter pressures" its especially disappointing to know that so many clinicians have been refused entry.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Unfortunately, the truth is even worse than the article, which says 100 Indian doctors. Over 400 doctors have been refused visas since the turn of the year. Having been on the receiving end of having an op put back due "winter pressures" its especially disappointing to know that so many clinicians have been refused entry.
		
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We had two certificates of sponsorship refused last month and no guarantee they'll go through in the Home Office monthly review for May. Placing a real burden on services as these are already posts to fill training gaps. Add in additional rota gaps for sickness and leave and some services are struggling to provide enough to run clinics and cover ward rounds


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We had two certificates of sponsorship refused last month and no guarantee they'll go through in the Home Office monthly review for May. Placing a real burden on services as these are already posts to fill training gaps. Add in additional rota gaps for sickness and leave and some services are struggling to provide enough to run clinics and cover ward rounds
		
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If we didn't increase the population to an extent where it cannot be supported then we wouldn't need them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If we didn't increase the population to an extent where it cannot be supported then we wouldn't need them.
		
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Well of course you _would _say that...but we DO need them.  And for as long as we do not have the doctors we need now, the public will continue to blame immigrants and immigration for the impact they experience due to the shortcomings in the resourcing of the NHS.  Or is that May's cunning plan?  I doubt it, but given the fiasco of recent days (not the Windrush scandal itself) I am not so sure.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2018)

May is Brexit Queen :lol:

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https://wingsoverscotland.com/


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well of course you _would _say that...but we DO need them.  And for as long as we do not have the doctors we need now, the public will continue to blame immigrants and immigration for the impact they experience due to the shortcomings in the resourcing of the NHS.  Or is that May's cunning plan?  I doubt it, but given the fiasco of recent days (not the Windrush scandal itself) I am not so sure.
		
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I don't think you're far wrong in questioning May's motives. We've heard time and again that if there's a need in the UK for people with certain skills they will be allowed in, yet over 400 doctors have been refused entry. Its not difficult to draw a conclusion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think you're far wrong in questioning May's motives. We've heard time and again that if there's a need in the UK for people with certain skills they will be allowed in, yet over 400 doctors have been refused entry. Its not difficult to draw a conclusion.
		
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I hope I am wrong...


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## Mudball (May 3, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think you're far wrong in questioning May's motives. We've heard time and again that if there's a need in the UK for people with certain skills they will be allowed in, yet over 400 doctors have been refused entry. Its not difficult to draw a conclusion.
		
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Skills based immigration is an interesting concept.  Refusing visas for qualified medical staff is absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS and an aging population. If you refuse visas for tech jobs, the jobs can move overseas easily without waiting for govt approvals.  Same with Finance folks.  

The more unfortunate side of the coin is the lack of funding for 'native' people.  We are not training enough Doctors, Midwifes, Dentist, IT, Finance folks. So we are not getting any home grown folks nor are we getting immigrants fill those jobs..   So the question is who are going to do these job??

Maybe, only when a Tory goes thru the wringer will they know.... as someone mentioned it on Twitter today.. 

Sajid Javid today continues a proud Tory tradition of only being able to feel empathy if they or someone they know is directly affected....


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Skills based immigration is an interesting concept.  Refusing visas for qualified medical staff is *absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS and an aging population.* If you refuse visas for tech jobs, the jobs can move overseas easily without waiting for govt approvals.  Same with Finance folks.  

The more unfortunate side of the coin is the lack of funding for 'native' people.  We are not training enough Doctors, Midwifes, Dentist, IT, Finance folks. So we are not getting any home grown folks nor are we getting immigrants fill those jobs..   So the question is who are going to do these job??

Maybe, only when a Tory goes thru the wringer will they know.... as someone mentioned it on Twitter today.. 

Sajid Javid today continues a proud Tory tradition of only being able to feel empathy if they or someone they know is directly affected....


 


Click to expand...

You, like so many others want to put sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population'  Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this?  The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services.   Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong.


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## Mudball (May 3, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You, like so many others want to put *sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population'*  Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this?  The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services.   Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong.
		
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Dear SR... I dont think I said that.. if you re-read my statement '_absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS *and *an aging population_', i understand that the pressure on NHS is not solely down to aging population.  However it is a fact that people in the UK are living longer.  This is a good thing but it also needs the NHS to adapt to it.    Immigration and Birth rates will contribute too.  You will be accused of thinking like a TM if you expect a highly skilled Doctor to come here but not bring or start a family.


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## Mudball (May 4, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You, like so many others want to put sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population'  Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this?  The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services.   *Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong*.
		
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I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India.  But let me give some context to this.  Indian professional education section is two tiered. 
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy.  There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them . 
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams.  As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it 

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations.  This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them.   While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience.  You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter. 

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice.  In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.    

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either.  They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India.  The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher).  As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India.  But let me give some context to this.  Indian professional education section is two tiered. 
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy.  There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them . 
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams.  As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it 

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations.  This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them.   While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience.  You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter. 

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice.  In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.    

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either.  They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India.  The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher).  As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target
		
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Interesting piece of background - thankyou


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## hors limite (Jun 4, 2018)

Watched Sajid Javid on Andrew Marr. He answered the questions, even the awkward ones, showed an ability to think on his feet and didn't say "let me be clear" once. The first PM from an Asian background?


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Watched Sajid Javid on Andrew Marr. He answered the questions, even the awkward ones, showed an ability to think on his feet and didn't say "let me be clear" once. The first PM from an Asian background?
		
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Thought he was excellent, but maybe too honest for a Tory.


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## IanM (Jun 4, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India.  But let me give some context to this.  Indian professional education section is two tiered. 
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy.  There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them . 
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams.  As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it 

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations.  This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them.   While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience.  You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter. 

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice.  In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.    

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either.  They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India.  The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher).  As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target
		
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Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota."  Are we short of docs or not?  (or is that about fees?)


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## User62651 (Jun 4, 2018)

Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2018)

IanM said:



			Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota."  Are we short of docs or not?  (or is that about fees?)
		
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My son is doing his A levels now and also has friends a year or two older. This is a comment I have heard before from his friends parents. It is anecdotal stuff but it does seem odd that kids with 3 x A* grades, either they have or are projected to get, are not getting a place in medical school because the numbers are full at the places he applied to. You hear similar stories about nurses. Things don't seem to add up at times, very strange.


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## Mudball (Jun 4, 2018)

IanM said:



			Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota."  Are we short of docs or not?  (or is that about fees?)
		
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Lord Tyrion said:



			My son is doing his A levels now and also has friends a year or two older. This is a comment I have heard before from his friends parents. It is anecdotal stuff but it does seem odd that kids with 3 x A* grades, either they have or are projected to get, are not getting a place in medical school because the numbers are full at the places he applied to. You hear similar stories about nurses. Things don't seem to add up at times, very strange.
		
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I did not know that they had a UK quota for Cardiff..   As per their FOI request they take a max of 7.5% of international students.  
This is an interesting FOI request >> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/medical_school_admission_interna_8 

Overall, I hear anecdotally that the number of Drs & Nurses graduates we churn out are insufficient for the system we have.  Also folks leave for prviate or consultant pratices after some time. So we are not able to fulfil our needs from the UK schools.  They were due to get more seats (but that is in 10s rather than 100s).  Funding is an issue.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.
		
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:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like itâ€™s drifting along, almost rudderless.


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## Slime (Jun 4, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like itâ€™s drifting along, almost rudderless.
		
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Does it?


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like itâ€™s drifting along, almost rudderless.
		
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Well, it would do when *your PM *has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it would do when *your PM *has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!
		
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i believe you are a gypsey too.

*typed from a grey Manchester *


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## Mudball (Jun 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it would do when *your PM *has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!
		
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Donâ€™t worry .. (yet) another rail fiasco and the Heathrow runway omnishambles will provide plenty of distraction ..


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.
		
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Whilst I think she is pretty poor as well, I am increasingly feeling sorry for her in the position she is in. She is trying to put together a Brexit that she does not overly believe in it and it seems a majority of parliament (including the HOL) do not seem to really want to go ahead with it either. Whatever happens it will have to be a big compromise that will not please either side of the argument. 

To be honest the cabinet is full of ministers desperate to have ultimate power and they are more than willing to put that before the the good of the country at times to achieve it.  And I imagine the same would be true of the other parties if they were in power, it just seems to be the type of people that we get in those positions nowadays.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest the cabinet is full of ministers desperate to have ultimate power and they are more than willing to put that before the the good of the country at times to achieve it.  And I imagine the same would be true of the other parties if they were in power, it just seems to be the type of people that we get in those positions nowadays.
		
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That's what we get when all major parties in this country are dominated by "Career Politicians" and that has, sadly, been the case for a number of years. 

I find it an interesting (and depressing) exercise to research into our politicians' backgrounds and see how very few of them have any meaningful work/career experience prior to entering politics.

Long gone are the days when it was a vocation rather than personal advancement.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2018)

David Davis resigning tomorrow.....according to STV.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			David Davis resigning tomorrow.....according to STV.
		
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Would not blame him with so many working against the referendum's outcome.


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## User62651 (Jun 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Would not blame him with so many working against the referendum's outcome.
		
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DD staying on, stamped his feet and May backed down.....I mean how many cabinet minsiters can a PM lose? December 2021...maybe..... added as a backstop date. Has turned into the usual daily Brexit related bunfight in Westminster since.
http://www.cityam.com/287143/brexit-secretary-david-davis-stay-prime-minister-offers


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			DD staying on, stamped his feet and May backed down.....I mean how many cabinet minsiters can a PM lose? December 2021...maybe..... added as a backstop date. Has turned into the usual daily Brexit related bunfight in Westminster since.
http://www.cityam.com/287143/brexit-secretary-david-davis-stay-prime-minister-offers

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Blimey I'm confused now. Could you just confirm that we are still on track to spend a vast amount of time and money to achieve a bland compromise that will please no one and end up with a trade deal that is not as good as the current one we have with most countries?  But we will have blue passports.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Blimey I'm confused now. Could you just confirm that we are still on track to spend a vast amount of time and money to achieve a bland compromise that will please no one and end up with a trade deal that is not as good as the current one we have with most countries?  But we will have blue passports.
		
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Believe the political classes are getting quite near to the outcome they intended delivering from day one...
Which will be, as usual, nothing like the 'winners', of the vote, thought they'd be getting...

Hey ho... Onwards and downwards...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe the political classes are getting quite near to the outcome they intended delivering from day one...
Which will be, as usual, nothing like the 'winners', of the vote, thought they'd be getting...

Hey ho... Onwards and downwards...
		
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Still going to cost the UK Zillions though, to finish in a much poorer state.

Well done those who wanted their country back, whichever country that may be.:angry:


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## MegaSteve (Jun 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still going to cost the UK Zillions though, to finish in a much poorer state.

Well done those who wanted their country back, whichever country that may be.:angry:
		
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Well, I don't know about wanting my country back...
I just wanted one less layer of 'management'...

Particularly one that offers VERY poor value...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still going to cost the UK Zillions though, to finish in a much poorer state.

Well done those who wanted their country back, whichever country that may be.:angry:
		
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  We always had our countries, what we want back is control of them.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe the political classes are getting quite near to the outcome they intended delivering from day one...
Which will be, as usual, nothing like the *'winners', of the vote, thought they'd be getting.*..

Hey ho... Onwards and downwards...
		
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I'm pretty sure we will be leaving the EU which is what the question was on the ballot paper.  As for the exact details of what that means then there lies the rub and I image you would get a 100 different answers if you asked a 100 different people. Which is why we'll end up with a version that will not please most people.


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## USER1999 (Jun 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still going to cost the UK Zillions though, to finish in a much poorer state.

Well done those who wanted their country back, whichever country that may be.:angry:
		
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It is not necessarily the leave voters who are at fault here, the UK government have singularly failed to deliver what was asked of them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



  We always had our countries, what we want back is control of them.
		
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So why is Westminster clawing back powers [control] that is devolved to Scotland and Wales.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure we will be leaving the EU which is what the question was on the ballot paper.  As for the exact details of what that means then there lies the rub and I image you would get a 100 different answers if you asked a 100 different people. Which is why we'll end up with a version that will not please most people.
		
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Well, from where I am sitting, we are not leaving at all...
As we will still have the layer of governance we voted to expunge...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why is Westminster clawing back powers [control] that is devolved to Scotland and Wales.
		
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Scotland has been given a whole raft of powers.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



*Well, from where I am sitting, we are not leaving at all..*.
As we will still have the layer of governance we voted to expunge...
		
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But legally we are.  And saying we are not leaving when we will be is just silly.  We may not be leaving on the terms you wanted to leave on, but that does not mean we are not leaving.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland has been given a whole raft of powers.
		
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This does not answer my question.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland has been given a whole raft of powers.
		
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Some which the leader fails to use because she wishes to blame others for her own failings.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			But legally we are.  And saying we are not leaving when we will be is just silly.  We may not be leaving on the terms you wanted to leave on, but that does not mean we are not leaving.
		
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Aaaah... The smoke 'n mirrors illusionists departure...
Front of the house is indicating exit...
Whilst, by sleight of hand, we remain fully attached and remotely controlled from Brussels...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure we will be leaving the EU which is what the question was on the ballot paper.  As for the exact details of what that means then there lies the rub and I image you would get a 100 different answers if you asked a 100 different people. Which is why we'll end up with a version that will not please most people.
		
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 I can't understand the confusion: * 'Leave'* means to go away from something, it doesn't mean to partially detach yourself, take a break, pop out for a while, one foot in!  

"I am closing my membership of the Golf Club and leaving"  

Surely you will be keeping your Locker and Paying for the Two's?

"No, I am Leaving"

But can you clarify what you mean by that, for example, will you still be paying your Bar Levy and contributing to the Green keepers Christmas Fund?

"No, I said I was Leaving, that means I will leave and not be a member anymore, I am going to pay greenfees at lots of other clubs as it will save me a lot of money, I am paying a big annual membership fee at this club and not getting value from it. I'm also a bit miffed that the club has let in people who dont pay anything to be members and my subs cover them.  I also dislike the club rule that says while I am a member I am not allowed to pay discounted greenfees through teeofftimes at other clubs unless approved by this golf club"

We think you have been listening to some of the moaners in the Spike Bar and don't understand what Leaving really means. We have decided to ignore your Decision to leave and will require a vote of your playing partners to make the final decision followed by a two year declubbing period to adjust yourself for the outside golfing world.

"No! I'm leaving. Bye!!"


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## bluewolf (Jun 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I can't understand the confusion: * 'Leave'* means to go away from something, it doesn't mean to partially detach yourself, take a break, pop out for a while, one foot in!  

"I am closing my membership of the Golf Club and leaving"  

Surely you will be keeping your Locker and Paying for the Two's?

"No, I am Leaving"

But can you clarify what you mean by that, for example, will you still be paying your Bar Levy and contributing to the Green keepers Christmas Fund?

"No, I said I was Leaving, that means I will leave and not be a member anymore, I am going to pay greenfees at lots of other clubs as it will save me a lot of money, I am paying a big annual membership fee at this club and not getting value from it. I'm also a bit miffed that the club has let in people who dont pay anything to be members and my subs cover them.  I also dislike the club rule that says while I am a member I am not allowed to pay discounted greenfees through teeofftimes at other clubs unless approved by this golf club"

We think you have been listening to some of the moaners in the Spike Bar and don't understand what Leaving really means. We have decided to ignore your Decision to leave and will require a vote of your playing partners to make the final decision followed by a two year declubbing period to adjust yourself for the outside golfing world.

"No! I'm leaving. Bye!!"
		
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As one of the more (usually) erudite regular posters on this car crash of a thread, I'm slightly disappointed that you would use such an obvious false equivalency to make a point. &#128521;


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			As one of the more (usually) erudite regular posters on this car crash of a thread, I'm slightly disappointed that you would use such an obvious false equivalency to make a point. ï˜‰
		
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Personally, I think itâ€™s quite a decent analogy. Iâ€™d only add that we would like to pay a green fee with you to access some of your facilities but it will be pretty much cancelled out by your green fee to us for you to access the things you want.


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## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Personally, I think itâ€™s quite a decent analogy. Iâ€™d only add that we would like to pay a green fee with you to access some of your facilities but it will be pretty much cancelled out by your green fee to us for you to access the things you want.
		
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There are far FAR too many intertwined agencies for this to be simplified into a simple analogy. There are far too many serious possible repercussions to leaving that aren't covered at all in the golf club example. 

It's probably more like trying to leave a bank that you've got your mortgage, current, savings, loan, credit card, insurance, overdraft etc with. Oh, and you work for the bank. As does your other half, and your kids. And all your friends. And the bank sponsors your football team ðŸ˜‰  And the guy handling your leaving doesn't appear to know what he's doing. And his boss doesn't actually want you to leave. And the bank you're going to is run by a tiny handed, orange sociopath. Etc etc etc ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			There are far FAR too many intertwined agencies for this to be simplified into a simple analogy. There are far too many serious possible repercussions to leaving that aren't covered at all in the golf club example. 

It's probably more like trying to leave a bank that you've got your mortgage, current, savings, loan, credit card, insurance, overdraft etc with. Oh, and you work for the bank. As does your other half, and your kids. And all your friends. And the bank sponsors your football team &#62985;  And the guy handling your leaving doesn't appear to know what he's doing. And his boss doesn't actually want you to leave. And the bank you're going to is run by a tiny handed, orange sociopath. Etc etc etc &#62978;
		
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Like a Bank, Hmmm.  One where you have no mortgage or loans, on the contrary you have deposited a substantial amount of money in it.  You are not employed by them rather the employees rely on your business for their wages and are a bit desperate on who will pay them if you leave.  Rather than pay you interest you have to pay it to customers who have no money and permanent overdrafts.   It's a strange type of Bank in that it insists that if you stay with them you cannot invest your money with any other Banks unless they arrange it for you on terms that suit them.  When you explain you would like to leave the Bank the Manager says he wont discuss it with you until you allow your neighbor to push his wheely bin around the back of your house, even though you are quite happy for him to do it anyway but when you explain that he says he doesn't believe you.    I don't think they have much interest in my football team but if they did it would probably never get out of the changing rooms unless their boots conformed to a few hundred regulations on climate change.     Not exactly a 'Listening Bank' Eh!


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			There are far FAR too many intertwined agencies for this to be simplified into a simple analogy. There are far too many serious possible repercussions to leaving that aren't covered at all in the golf club example. 

It's probably more like trying to leave a bank that you've got your mortgage, current, savings, loan, credit card, insurance, overdraft etc with. Oh, and you work for the bank. As does your other half, and your kids. And all your friends. And the bank sponsors your football team &#62985;  And the guy handling your leaving doesn't appear to know what he's doing. And his boss doesn't actually want you to leave. And the bank you're going to is run by a tiny handed, orange sociopath. Etc etc etc &#62978;
		
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You did great with the first paragraph but totally lost me with the second one. Orange sociopath? Where on earth does that fit into a reasonable discussion? Maybe I missed where you are coming from, Trump?? ... there are another 148 countries out there...


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You did great with the first paragraph but totally lost me with the second one. Orange sociopath? Where on earth does that fit into a reasonable discussion? Maybe I missed where you are coming from, Trump?? ... there are another 148 countries out there...
		
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It was a lighthearted way to waste several minutes whilst waiting for the train. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I've long since given up taking anything in this thread seriously.

lesson learned I suppose. I think I'll go back to ignoring the thread completely &#128077;


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I can't understand the confusion: * 'Leave'* means to go away from something, it doesn't mean to partially detach yourself, take a break, pop out for a while, one foot in!  

"I am closing my membership of the Golf Club and leaving"  

Surely you will be keeping your Locker and Paying for the Two's?

"No, I am Leaving"

But can you clarify what you mean by that, for example, will you still be paying your Bar Levy and contributing to the Green keepers Christmas Fund?

"No, I said I was Leaving, that means I will leave and not be a member anymore, I am going to pay greenfees at lots of other clubs as it will save me a lot of money, I am paying a big annual membership fee at this club and not getting value from it. I'm also a bit miffed that the club has let in people who dont pay anything to be members and my subs cover them.  I also dislike the club rule that says while I am a member I am not allowed to pay discounted greenfees through teeofftimes at other clubs unless approved by this golf club"

We think you have been listening to some of the moaners in the Spike Bar and don't understand what Leaving really means. We have decided to ignore your Decision to leave and will require a vote of your playing partners to make the final decision followed by a two year declubbing period to adjust yourself for the outside golfing world.

"No! I'm leaving. Bye!!"
		
Click to expand...

Yes yes, all very good.  But to further your analogy you seem to miss the fact that once you leave a golf club you can happily just walk out and completely ignore it and it will have absolutely no impact on your life as you just join another one.

Where as in the massively interconnected economic world we live in we can not just leave the EU and completely ignore it as it is essential that we have sensible economic and trading arrangements with it. Which I expect is what Tmay and a few other in her cabinet know and are trying to achieve.

As I said, we will leave the EU on March the whenever next year.  But sorting through what will happen in the aftermath of leaving the EU is a little bit more tricky then the aftermath of leaving a golf club. As many are finding out. And a few are doing the best to ignore under the umbrella of project fear.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You did great with the first paragraph but totally lost me with the second one. Orange sociopath? Where on earth does that fit into a reasonable discussion? Maybe I missed where you are coming from, Trump?? ... there are another 148 countries out there...
		
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I think he was pointing out that at one stage there was a big hope that once we were free from the shackles of the EU we would be able to do some great trade deals with the USA as they are a massive market and TMay was currying favour with Trump a bit at the start of his presidency.  Where as it is increasingly clear that all Trump cares about is what is best for the USA and screw the rest.  

Yes I am sure there are still 148 odd countries out there but realistically the EU and the US are still massive trading partners we need to work with.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes yes, all very good.  But to further your analogy you seem to miss the fact that once you leave a golf club you can happily just walk out and completely ignore it and it will have absolutely no impact on your life as you just join another one.

Where as in the massively interconnected economic world we live in we can not just leave the EU and completely ignore it as it is essential that we have sensible economic and trading arrangements with it. Which I expect is what Tmay and a few other in her cabinet know and are trying to achieve.

As I said, we will leave the EU on March the whenever next year.  But sorting through what will happen in the aftermath of leaving the EU is a little bit more tricky then the aftermath of leaving a golf club. As many are finding out. And a few are doing the best to ignore under the umbrella of project fear.
		
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If you drill back on the thread it was started by your hackneyed suggestion that we voted to leave but didn't understand what 'Leave' meant.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If you drill back on the thread it was started by your hackneyed suggestion that we voted to leave but didn't understand what 'Leave' meant.
		
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Yes, silly me, it is clear from current events that business, government and voters all have a clear idea of what leave entails and what will happen....


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## MegaSteve (Jun 11, 2018)

Screw the B word...

What the flip is the shower of worthlessness [in Westminster] doing about our towns/cities slipping into lawlessness...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, silly me, it is clear from current events that business, government and voters all have a clear idea of what leave entails and what will happen....
		
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They all know what 'Leave' means but want to stick their heads in the sand think it wont happen.  What they should be doing is making preparations for it.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			They all know what 'Leave' means but want to stick their heads in the sand think it wont happen.  What they should be doing is making preparations for it.
		
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Come on SR they've had 2 years so far including many Brexiteers in Govt. 

Never mind you've got this guy waiting in the wings, ready to pounce anytime now and save us all from a secret remainer PM and the EU........the messiah, he's clearly prepared.......................


......................to do anything to be PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Come on SR they've had 2 years so far including many Brexiteers in Govt. 

Never mind you've got this guy waiting in the wings, ready to pounce anytime now and save us all from a secret remainer PM and the EU........the messiah, he's clearly prepared.......................


......................to do anything to be PM.
View attachment 25076

Click to expand...

A false prophet more's the like.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Come on SR they've had 2 years so far including many Brexiteers in Govt. 

Never mind you've got this guy waiting in the wings, ready to pounce anytime now and save us all from a secret remainer PM and the EU........the messiah, he's clearly prepared.......................


......................to do anything to be PM.
View attachment 25076

Click to expand...

Bit of a pathetic construed picture.   Boris is more intelligent than you and I put together, he has IMO been a good Foreign Secretary and will get better.   Dissing him is on a par with dissing Jimmy Krankey . Oooops!! :smirk:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2018)

Royal Mail there trolling the Brexiteers 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44448061


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## Rooter (Jun 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Royal Mail there trolling the Brexiteers 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44448061

Click to expand...

how did you come to that conclusion? i read it as a classic sitcom is celebrating its 50th anniversary and the royal mail are honoring that... or did i miss something??


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## User62651 (Jun 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit of a pathetic construed picture.   Boris is more intelligent than you and I put together, he has IMO been a good Foreign Secretary and will get better.   Dissing him is on a par with dissing Jimmy Krankey . Oooops!! :smirk:
		
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"He has been a good Foreign Secretary"....wow. He might be intelligent (I have an IQ over 100 hopefully and he might be 150 so where does that leave you?) but behind the buffoon-esque nonsense he's also disloyal and a bit of a snake.....not good leadership character traits imo.
Jimmy Krankey is a kiddies tv/panto character played by an actress. Not sure why he/she is relevant to this topic so surprised anyone would want to diss him/her.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 12, 2018)

Rooter said:



			how did you come to that conclusion? i read it as a classic sitcom is celebrating its 50th anniversary and the royal mail are honoring that... or did i miss something??
		
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Yes, you missed something!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			"He has been a good Foreign Secretary"....wow. He might be intelligent (I have an IQ over 100 hopefully and he might be 150 so where does that leave you?) but behind the buffoon-esque nonsense he's also disloyal and a bit of a snake.....not good leadership character traits imo.
Jimmy Krankey is a kiddies tv/panto character played by an actress. Not sure why he/she is relevant to this topic so surprised anyone would want to diss him/her.

Click to expand...

:lol: Reply of the year to the IQ test there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			"He has been a good Foreign Secretary"....wow. He might be intelligent (I have an IQ over 100 hopefully and he might be 150 so where does that leave you?) but behind the buffoon-esque nonsense he's also disloyal and a bit of a snake.....not good leadership character traits imo.
J*immy Krankey is a kiddies tv/panto character played by an actress.* Not sure why he/she is relevant to this topic so surprised anyone would want to diss him/her.

Click to expand...

...and a very intelligent actress into the bargain...


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## Slime (Jun 12, 2018)

Rooter said:



			how did you come to that conclusion? i read it as a classic sitcom is celebrating its 50th anniversary and the royal mail are honoring that... *or did i miss something??*

Click to expand...

I don't think so.



FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, *you missed something!*

Click to expand...

Me too, please enlighten us.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2018)

Slime said:



			I don't think so.



Me too, please enlighten us.
		
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The Home Guard [Dad's Army] were old men who wanted to keep folk out of our country...
Which is how some [DfT included] view Brexiteers...

Sad, really...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The Home Guard [Dad's Army] were old men who wanted to keep folk out of our country...
Which is how some [DfT included] view Brexiteers...

Sad, really...
		
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Lot's of old men [and women] in Scotland happy to see more folk in OUR country.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lot's of old men [and women] in Scotland happy to see more folk in OUR country.
		
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And what has that got to do with your view of Brexiteers being like Dads Army...

More to the point what has it anything to do with this thread ?
Being Ms Mays ability to lead the country...


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## Dellboy (Jun 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lot's of old men [and women] in Scotland happy to see more folk in OUR country.
		
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Of course you are, them mars bars arenâ€™t going to fry themselves are they


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## Old Skier (Jun 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lot's of old men [and women] in Scotland happy to see more folk in OUR country.
		
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Could be because so many Scots have left.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 12, 2018)

Slime said:



			I don't think so.



Me too, please enlighten us.
		
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I believe he was making a joke around the juxtaposition of the failed campaign for Brexit commemorative stamps with the classic Dad's Army slogans viewed as commentary on Brexit...... At least that was how I read it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			I believe he was making a joke around the juxtaposition of the failed campaign for Brexit commemorative stamps with the classic Dad's Army slogans viewed as commentary on Brexit...... At least that was how I read it.
		
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Ahh clever clogs spoiler.

 I was enjoying the spittle fumed spluttering of leavers replying on my behalf.:lol:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ahh clever clogs spoiler.

 I was enjoying the spittle fumed spluttering of leavers replying on my behalf.:lol:
		
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You were basically being your usual troll self by trying to get people to react to something that had zero to do Theresa May or Brexit 

The only surprising thing is you didnâ€™t add an anti England / Pro Scottish twist on it - thatâ€™s your normal mode of operation.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			"He has been a good Foreign Secretary"....wow. He might be intelligent (I have an IQ over 100 hopefully and he might be 150 so where does that leave you?) but behind the buffoon-esque nonsense he's also disloyal and a bit of a snake.....not good leadership character traits imo.
Jimmy Krankey is a kiddies tv/panto character played by an actress. Not sure why he/she is relevant to this topic so surprised anyone would want to diss him/her.

Click to expand...

Mines 118 but that doesn't mean a lot, I have met some very silly people with high IQ's. I wont be disrespectful to you though as it would look a little churlish wouldn't it?

How unfair it would be to compare Him/Her (Jimmy) to a politician. She/He's much better than that. :smirk:


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## MegaSteve (Jun 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ahh clever clogs spoiler.

 I was enjoying the spittle fumed spluttering of leavers replying on my behalf.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

So, basically I nailed it... 

And, I ask again what has any of it to do with Ms Mays ability as PM?


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2018)




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## FairwayDodger (Jun 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 25078

Click to expand...

I also dislike these sort of generalisations.... "older generation did this...", "young people today are....", "women don't like....", "men are all...." it's nonsensical. The "older generation" for example are all for leaving the EU but dead against Scottish independence. Sounds like angry rantings of those who lost the votes.

HOWEVER, this meme is also outrageous. To have fought in the war you'd need to be about ninety, older unless you were very young at the time, so when people talk about "the older generation" they are predominantly referring to people who are too young to fit your imagery.


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## User62651 (Jun 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You were basically being your usual troll self by trying to get people to react to something that had zero to do Theresa May or Brexit 

The only surprising thing is you didnâ€™t add an anti England / Pro Scottish twist on it - thatâ€™s your normal mode of operation.
		
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Well he didn't, I've just popped in here today and just read recent posts in this thread  - see 2 disparaging remarks about Scotland from the usual perps that has nowt to do with the topic yet that's fine? Why not comment on those instead?


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			HOWEVER, this meme is also outrageous. To have fought in the war you'd need to be about ninety, older unless you were very young at the time, so when people talk about "the older generation" they are predominantly referring to people who are too young to fit your imagery.
		
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You must be very young, there have been several in my life time.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 14, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			You must be very young, there have been several in my life time.
		
Click to expand...

I hoped youâ€™d be able to recognise it when someone pointed out how disrespectful that meme is but should have remembered where I was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2018)

It strikes me that Theresa May has drifted into the realm of being unfit to be PM.

We have her apparent/alleged duplicity and double-cross of 'remain' MPs prior to the vote last week, and the complete and utter unfounded nonsense she is spouting about a Brexit Dividend being available to part-fund additional NHS budget as soon as we leave - when even lead Leave supporters are accepting a negative impact on the economy for (at least) a short time after Brexit.  Never mind the authoritative voice of the Director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Paul Johnson, who has concluded that â€œthere is no Brexit dividendâ€.  She is treating the electorate as gullible fools.  Now some might choose to buy into this stuff as it keeps good their belief that this is *evidence *of the Brexit Dividend, and *proof *that the Â£350m Red Bus claim was true.  So all hail the Foreign Secretary.  

Mrs May has found her Magic Money Tree - and beneath it unicorns are grazing.  She should go.


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## Hobbit (Jun 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It strikes me that Theresa May has drifted into the realm of being unfit to be PM.

We have her apparent/alleged duplicity and double-cross of 'remain' MPs prior to the vote last week, and the complete and utter unfounded nonsense she is spouting about a Brexit Dividend being available to part-fund additional NHS budget as soon as we leave - when even lead Leave supporters are accepting a negative impact on the economy for (at least) a short time after Brexit.  Never mind the authoritative voice of the Director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Paul Johnson, who has concluded that â€œthere is no Brexit dividendâ€.  She is treating the electorate as gullible fools.  Now some might choose to buy into this stuff as it keeps good their belief that this is *evidence *of the Brexit Dividend, and *proof *that the Â£350m Red Bus claim was true.  So all hail the Foreign Secretary.  

Mrs May has found her Magic Money Tree - and beneath it unicorns are grazing.  She should go.
		
Click to expand...

Although Iâ€™m sceptical of the money that will be available, Iâ€™d like to see the Autumn Statement before nailing that coffin lid shut.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Although Iâ€™m sceptical of the money that will be available, Iâ€™d like to see the Autumn Statement before nailing that coffin lid shut.
		
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And of course she has simply handed the poisoned chalice of finding the funding to the Chancellor - and of course as a 'Remainer' what can he do but invent something for a Brexit Dividend - or be accused of treachery and undermining of the PM and the government - and Brexit of course.

No surprise to me that this very welcome proposed funding boost for the NHS is announced just prior to a bill with revised/reinstated amendments coming back to the Commons from the Lords next week - when any vote against the bill by Tory Remain Rebels/Traitors can then be portrayed as undermining the governments funding plans for the NHS.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			the complete and utter unfounded nonsense she is spouting about a Brexit Dividend being available to part-fund additional NHS budget as soon as we leave - when even lead Leave supporters are accepting a negative impact on the economy for (at least) a short time after Brexit.
		
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Isn't the Brexit dividend simply the Â£250(ish) million per week that it costs us to be part of the EU? Or have I got that wrong?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2018)

Getting sick to the back teeth of the persistent whinging about the Bwordâ€¦

Ms May along with the rest of the shower in Westminster are getting so much other, just as if not more important, stuff wrong and nobody cares... 

We, collectively, are giving them an easy ride on the really important 'stuff'...

Like total lack of policing...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the Brexit dividend simply the Â£250(ish) million per week that it costs us to be part of the EU? Or have I got that wrong?
		
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The common consensus is that that money saved has already been earmarked till at least 2022 to cover the cost of leaving.  Of course this may well be called project fear but pays your price and takes your chances.  https://twitter.com/pjtheeconomist/status/1008256589051170818?s=21


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2018)

Also the strange thing is that is she would have fessed up and told the truth by saying that they realise the NHS is in desperate need of extra funding so they will do this through some savings here and there, may be some borrowing and through taxation then I would have completely got it. 

I'm sure a few hard core Tories would have got their knickers in a twist but she could have got one over on Corbyn whilst at the same time repairing some of the reputation they have of destroying public services that a lot of people use. But as the Tory party are in such a state she has to essentially tell a lie to appease the hard core Brexiters. Stupid really.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2018)

Hopefully they will also deal with the massive waste in the system. When stories come out about an NHS trust paying Â£12 for a lightbulb or Â£8 for some plastic gloves then the system doesn't work. Why can't we have a central processing facility that buys in and distributes everything to the various NHS trusts. A buyer the size of the NHS should be able to get massive discounts from suppliers with the volumes they would be buying.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Hopefully they will also deal with the massive waste in the system. When stories come out about an NHS trust paying Â£12 for a lightbulb or Â£8 for some plastic gloves then the system doesn't work. Why can't we have a central processing facility that buys in and distributes everything to the various NHS trusts. A buyer the size of the NHS should be able to get massive discounts from suppliers with the volumes they would be buying.
		
Click to expand...


The level of duplication, in management, within the NHS is frightening...


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## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2018)

Waste in HS2...

A boating lake, near here, was valued at Â£6M but the owners have been [or are being] compensated to the tune of Â£25M...

What's our government doing about where our hard earnt is being spent? About zip!

Probably because they are too tied up with worrying about the Bword...


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## Hobbit (Jun 18, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Hopefully they will also deal with the massive waste in the system. When stories come out about an NHS trust paying Â£12 for a lightbulb or Â£8 for some plastic gloves then the system doesn't work. Why can't we have a central processing facility that buys in and distributes everything to the various NHS trusts. A buyer the size of the NHS should be able to get massive discounts from suppliers with the volumes they would be buying.
		
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Without going into too much boring detail, there is a central facility that buys for the NHS. Itâ€™s called the NHS Supply Chain. It negotiates prices for good and services, and has done since its inception over 10 years ago. 

But donâ€™t be fooled by its name. It owned by DHL. It charges a buying fee to each Trust. Itâ€™s not a small fee. If Trusts went direct to the seller, and some do, they would make a decent saving.

Privatisation by the back door, just like PFI hospitals, and all brought in by Labour.


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2018)

When the news broke out that the NHS will get 20b funding.. i was overjoyed.. 
Then she said it was the Brexit Dividend..  I was sad (as this is not  going to happen)
Then she said taxes will rise..  I was down and out (given that leaving the EU allows us to lower corporate taxes, so this will go to individuals; some already paying 40-50% tax).

... it felt like I was watching an English WC match while being continuously wrestled by the opposition defender into the ground if I raise any objection to Brexit while the VAR looks the other way..


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## spongebob59 (Jun 19, 2018)

Lots of rumours on Twitter predicting a Nov election, hence the NHS announcement.

https://twitter.com/justinecedwards/status/1008820078555684864?s=19


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			When the news broke out that the NHS will get 20b funding.. i was overjoyed.. 
Then she said it was the Brexit Dividend..  I was sad (as this is not  going to happen)
Then she said taxes will rise..  I was down and out (given that leaving the EU allows us to lower corporate taxes, *so this will go to individuals*; some already paying 40-50% tax).

... it felt like I was watching an English WC match while being continuously wrestled by the opposition defender into the ground if I raise any objection to Brexit while the VAR looks the other way..
		
Click to expand...

Doubtful as that will break a major manifesto pledge and leave the door open for any half decent opposition to use it in the next election.  If we ever get one, a half decent opposition that is, an election could happen any time the way the Tories are self imploding at the moment.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			If we ever get one, a half decent opposition that is, .
		
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Anyone heard from Vince the Cable lately?

Kind of indicates the true lack of support for remain...


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## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Anyone heard from Vince the Cable lately?

Kind of indicates the true lack of support for remain...
		
Click to expand...

You might not be wrong there. When the LibDems made it their banner cry in the run up to the last election it achieved.........


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the Brexit dividend simply the Â£250(ish) million per week that it costs us to be part of the EU? Or have I got that wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Whatever it might be the BD can only realistically be the monies that are left from the Â£234m per week (the figure after rebate is deducted but before deducting existing funding coming from the EU).  Take off existing EU funding the figure gets closer to Â£165m (https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/).  

And of course we know of real costs of exiting - and then there is the impact on the economy of being out of the EU that most accept will happen - at least for the 'short' term (however long that might be in economic terms).

So in fact pie in the sky wishful thinking from the PM of the sort that the Tories in the past have continually lambasted the Labour Party for indulging in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The level of duplication, in management, within the NHS is frightening...
		
Click to expand...

Privatise it - get businessmen to run it - that'll make it efficient - like the railways...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Doubtful as that will break a major manifesto pledge and leave the door open for any half decent opposition to use it in the next election.  If we ever get one, a half decent opposition that is, an election could happen any time the way the Tories are self imploding at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately HK for me we do not currently have anything vaguely approaching the sort of half decent opposition that I could honestly support.


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## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Privatise it - get businessmen to run it - that'll make it efficient - like the railways...
		
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Would privatising it see a gross 48% saving, because that is roughly what you'll need to generate a 25% profit to satisfy shareholders? 48% going out of the NHS is not achievable. Private business would take as much as it possibly could, and ruin the NHS - just look at the PFI Trusts that are having to be bailed out to the tune of tens of millions every single year.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Privatise it - get businessmen to run it - that'll make it efficient - like the railways...
		
Click to expand...

The ideal would be a combination of the two. As Hobbit points out a private business has to make a profit and factor that in. That makes them make decisions in certain circumstances which are not compatible with the needs of a public body. However the appalling waste which is apparent to anyone who uses the services of the NHS but seem unable to be noticed by those who have worked in it for a lifetime should not be allowed to carry on. Take the good practice from both and you would have the best of both worlds. Good luck with that though.

I should add, for the purposes of balance and fairness, that there are trusts who have moved forward and are not as wasteful. Some of the practices are good, many not so good, the acceptance that this is how it has always happened etc is hugely frustrating to an outsider.

In terms of railways, I remember how awful BR were. There was no railway panacea in this country that we have moved away from.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Anyone heard from Vince the Cable lately?

Kind of indicates the true lack of support for remain...
		
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure the amount of media coverage the leader of the third party that is very third is the greatest barometer of the level of support for remaining.  But if that floats your boat then OK.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm not entirely sure the amount of media coverage the leader of the third party that is very third is the greatest barometer of the level of support for remaining.  But if that floats your boat then OK.
		
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Fairly confident the autumn elections will endorse my view...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 19, 2018)

I'm not sure whether she's unfit to be PM but I think that she might be in breach of the new GDPR rules. I've received an email talking about the additional funding for the NHS and suggesting that if I support the policy I could join the party. That's all fine apart from the fact I haven't had a previous email from them since GDPR came in asking me to opt in or that they had updated their privacy policy.


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## Slime (Jun 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure whether she's unfit to be PM but I think that she might be in breach of the new GDPR rules. I've received an email talking about the additional funding for the NHS and suggesting that if I support the policy I could join the party. That's all fine apart from the fact I haven't had a previous email from them since GDPR came in asking me to opt in or that they had updated their privacy policy.
		
Click to expand...


Well, take her to court.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm not entirely sure the amount of media coverage the leader of the third party that is very third is the greatest barometer of the level of support for remaining.  But if that floats your boat then OK.
		
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Not like you to make that simple error HK ..â€¦..The Lieb Dems are in fact the 4th party


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not like you to make that simple error HK ..â€¦..The Lieb Dems are in fact the 4th party
		
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Correct me if I am wrong but was it not a UK General Election in 2017 and, throughput the UK, did not the Lib Dems  poll nearly 2.5 times as many votes as the party in 4th place I.e. SNP?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Correct me if I am wrong but was it not a UK General Election in 2017 and, throughput the UK, did not the Lib Dems  poll nearly 2.5 times as many votes as the party in 4th place I.e. SNP?
		
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How many MP's do they have.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not like you to make that simple error HK ..â€¦..The *Lieb* Dems are in fact the 4th party
		
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Are they German?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever it might be the BD can only realistically be the monies that are left from the Â£234m per week (the figure after rebate is deducted *but before deducting existing funding coming from the EU*).  Take off existing EU funding the figure gets closer to Â£165m (https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/).  

And of course we know of real costs of exiting - and then there is the impact on the economy of being out of the EU that most accept will happen - at least for the 'short' term (however long that might be in economic terms).

So in fact pie in the sky wishful thinking from the PM of the sort that the Tories in the past have continually lambasted the Labour Party for indulging in.
		
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We don't get any funding from the EU, as net contributors we just get some of our own money back.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ideal would be a combination of the two. As Hobbit points out a private business has to make a profit and factor that in. That makes them make decisions in certain circumstances which are not compatible with the needs of a public body. However the appalling waste which is apparent to anyone who uses the services of the NHS but seem unable to be noticed by those who have worked in it for a lifetime should not be allowed to carry on. Take the good practice from both and you would have the best of both worlds. Good luck with that though.

I should add, for the purposes of balance and fairness, that there are trusts who have moved forward and are not as wasteful. Some of the practices are good, many not so good, the acceptance that this is how it has always happened etc is hugely frustrating to an outsider.

In terms of railways, I remember how awful BR were. There was no railway panacea in this country that we have moved away from.
		
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Many large private health care suppliers like 'Nuffield' are 'Not for Profit' companies.


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## hors limite (Jun 27, 2018)

PMQs today. OK the tactic of her responding with a question is hardly new. However, today with Jezzer and others it was simply awful.Is there something in their arcane procedures that can demand an answer? The narcissist Bercow who can't bear to be parted from the job of Speaker won't provide a solution.


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## User62651 (Jun 28, 2018)

hors limite said:



			PMQs today. OK the tactic of her responding with a question is hardly new. However, today with Jezzer and others it was simply awful.Is there something in their arcane procedures that can demand an answer? The narcissist Bercow who can't bear to be parted from the job of Speaker won't provide a solution.
		
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Dont watch it, just puts my back up. The whole business of guffawing and baying at eachother across the commons to point score just seems pathetic most of the time. Some 'traditions' should just die out, PMQs being one of them. Instead PM should have to sit on one of those select committee cross party question sessions say once per month (10 different MPs questioning each time) and have to answer questions without the screeching mob of the commons and without having seen the questions in advance........imo. Televise it...live at 8.30pm of an evening.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Dont watch it, just puts my back up. The whole business of guffawing and baying at eachother across the commons to point score just seems pathetic most of the time. Some 'traditions' should just die out, PMQs being one of them. Instead PM should have to sit on one of those select committee cross party question sessions say once per month (10 different MPs questioning each time) and have to answer questions without the screeching mob of the commons and without having seen the questions in advance........imo. Televise it...live at 8.30pm of an evening.

Click to expand...

Good idea, replace the equally pathetic Question Time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2018)

Poll in Scotland taken before the recent hullabaloo at Westminster shows trust in Scottish Government at 61% and trust in a Westminster Government at 20%, can't imagine what it is now.

Can anyone ever imagine May's Westminster Government with a 61% trust vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good idea, replace the equally pathetic Question Time.
		
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With Dimbleby retiring from presenting it QT should be put out to pasture.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good idea, replace the equally pathetic Question Time.
		
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Wholeheartedly agree...

The whole program has gone downhill [rapidly] when it was deemed necessary to have SNP representation at every opportunity... I mean. an SNP person, on the panel, when the program visits the south coast... Great way of antagonising the audience fully achieved by the SNP person...

Yep, when Dimbleby retires, kick the program into touch...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Wholeheartedly agree...

The whole program has gone downhill [rapidly] when it was deemed necessary to have SNP representation at every opportunity... I mean. an SNP person, on the panel, when the program visits the south coast... Great way of antagonising the audience fully achieved by the SNP person...

Yep, when Dimbleby retires, kick the program into touch...
		
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I know, just imagine how Scotland feels when the regular Tory/UKIP/Daily Mail [ journos] appear as three panelists on every week.

BTW the TV programme is supposed to go out to the entire British nation....not just the 'South Coast'. [Wales, England or Scotland?)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

And so comment in the Sunday papers suggesting that maybe - just maybe - Theresa may has a cunning plan.  

Drag things out so long to the point that the timescales for putting a deal in front of the EU ahead of March 29th - with enough time to discuss and agree it - get so compressed that we realise we are very seriously running out of time - and the urgency of getting an agreed position to put to the EU forces the Brexit Fanatics in the cabinet and Westminster (Bone, Cash, Jenkin, Fox, Johnson, Davis, Patel et al) into the open with their (IMO insane) demands.  And we see their stance for what it is - self-serving and totally ideological with nary a care for the outcome.  They want Brexit over the line no matter what the cost and the impact to their party and on us all - well not on all because these fanatics won't be affected as they are 'all right jack'.

To achieve that they threaten the Prime Minister with all sorts of hellfire and damnation if she comes up with a deal that doesn't fit the demands of their relatively small numbers - they will try and bring her down - no matter the constitutional crisis that that would through up as the Tory Party would be leaderless and whither the PM - and whither the Brexit negotiations.

And all of the above makes it more possible for her to get a proposal to put to the EU agreed on Thursday - and for the Leave voters out in the country to accept the deal as being better than nothing.

I get the sense that May is just going for broke as she appreciates the mess and chaos of the current situation and the damage that _No Deal _will do to the country.  And maybe she hopes that she can sell the proposal to the country - having exposed the fanatics for what they are.

So maybe - just maybe - Theresa May has a cunning plan.

(which would be more - it has to be said - than one Mr Jeremy Corbyn)


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so comment in the Sunday papers suggesting that maybe - just maybe - Theresa may has a cunning plan.  

Drag things out so long to the point that the timescales for putting a deal in front of the EU ahead of March 29th - with enough time to discuss and agree it - get so compressed that we realise we are very seriously running out of time - and the urgency of getting an agreed position to put to the EU forces the Brexit Fanatics in the cabinet and Westminster (Bone, Cash, Jenkin, Fox, Johnson, Davis, Patel et al) into the open with their (IMO insane) demands.  And we see their stance for what it is - self-serving and totally ideological with nary a care for the outcome.  They want Brexit over the line no matter what the cost and the impact to their party and on us all - well not on all because these fanatics won't be affected as they are 'all right jack'.

To achieve that they threaten the Prime Minister with all sorts of hellfire and damnation if she comes up with a deal that doesn't fit the demands of their relatively small numbers - they will try and bring her down - no matter the constitutional crisis that that would through up as the Tory Party would be leaderless and whither the PM - and whither the Brexit negotiations.

And all of the above makes it more possible for her to get a proposal to put to the EU agreed on Thursday - and for the Leave voters out in the country to accept the deal as being better than nothing.

I get the sense that May is just going for broke as she appreciates the mess and chaos of the current situation and the damage that _No Deal _will do to the country.  And maybe she hopes that she can sell the proposal to the country - having exposed the fanatics for what they are.

So maybe - just maybe - Theresa May has a cunning plan.

(which would be more - it has to be said - than one Mr Jeremy Corbyn)
		
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I would laugh my socks off if May stood up to them and sacked the mangy pack of wolves.
The bonus being that she might just get the country behind her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would laugh my socks off if May stood up to them and sacked the mangy pack of wolves.
The bonus being that she might just get the country behind her.
		
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Would love it - just love it.

And maybe May is aiming to do just that - get them and their views fully exposed and up there like coconuts in the coconut shy - so that she can justifiably knock them off their self-serving pedestals.


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## Dellboy (Jul 2, 2018)

If the, you know what hits the fan, May will be the first to go, she has not got the numbers to back her up.

Get a new leader and then follow out the wishes of the majority of the country and leave on our terms, we owe the EU stuff all.

Once we have gone, give the Scottish people a vote on independence, which going by the last poll, they will lose and then hopefully we never have to see that â€œFish ladyâ€ on our screens again, everyoneâ€™s a winner :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			If the, you know what hits the fan, May will be the first to go, she has not got the numbers to back her up.

Get a new leader and then follow out the wishes of the majority of the country and leave on our terms, we owe the EU stuff all.

Once we have gone, give the Scottish people a vote on independence, which going by the last poll, they will lose and then hopefully we never have to see that â€œFish ladyâ€ on our screens again, everyoneâ€™s a winner :thup:
		
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'Fish Lady'?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			'Fish Lady'?
		
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Nicola Sturgeon - at least that's who I assume they mean.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

And so it seems that May's cunning plan is beginning to work...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-shut-up_uk_5b39f023e4b08c3a8f6bea58

How could I ever doubt her.

Mind you - given how tired, wan and (frankly) rather haggard she is looking, maybe she has decided to flatten the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, get some form of soft-Brexit deal - and then get out, and who would blame her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nicola Sturgeon - at least that's who I assume they mean.
		
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And I always thought Sturgeon was a source of a very lovely and valuable foodstuff?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			If the, you know what hits the fan, May will be the first to go, she has not got the numbers to back her up.

Get a new leader and then follow out the wishes of the majority of the country and leave on our terms, we owe the EU stuff all.

Once we have gone, give the Scottish people a vote on independence, which going by the last poll, they will lose and then hopefully we never have to see that â€œFish ladyâ€ on our screens again, everyoneâ€™s a winner :thup:
		
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Of the massive array of talent available who would you like to see leading the Tory's after they have done the dirty on May.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so it seems that May's cunning plan is beginning to work...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-shut-up_uk_5b39f023e4b08c3a8f6bea58

How could I ever doubt her.

Mind you - given how tired, wan and (frankly) rather haggard she is looking, maybe she has decided to flatten the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, get some form of soft-Brexit deal - and then get out, and who would blame her.
		
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I'm no fan of Brexit! But Rees-Mogg is correct! Any entity where the final arbiter is the ECJ means that Brexit is almost certainly not 'complete'! Whether that is actually important/essential is a separate issue - there are plenty of other external (non-UK) bodies that are the 'final arbiters' for situations that affect the UK! The European Court of Human Rights - which, it probably needs to be stressed, is not related to/part of the EU - is an obvious example! And, I might add, an extremely honourable, if annoyingly so (or worse) to governments, one!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'm no fan of Brexit! But Rees-Mogg is correct! Any entity where the final arbiter is the ECJ means that Brexit is almost certainly not 'complete'! Whether that is actually important/essential is a separate issue - there are plenty of other external (non-UK) bodies that are the 'final arbiters' for situations that affect the UK! The European Court of Human Rights - which, it probably needs to be stressed, is not related to/part of the EU - is an obvious example! And, I might add, an extremely honourable, if annoyingly so (or worse) to governments, one!
		
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He might be correct in his assessment of what remaining under the jurisdiction of the ECJ means in respect of Brexit - but his criticism of the PM has not gone done well with many in the Tory party.  He is trying to blackmail the PM - polite words wrapping up the menace.  Completely unacceptable some Tory MPs are saying and R-M should shut-up.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He might be correct in his assessment of what remaining under the jurisdiction of the ECJ means in respect of Brexit - but his criticism of the PM has not gone done well with many in the Tory party.  He is trying to blackmail the PM - polite words wrapping up the menace.  Completely unacceptable some Tory MPs are saying and R-M should shut-up.
		
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So they are saying he should compromise his (quite reasonable imo) approach for the sake of some sort of 'party unity'! This is where individual members have a duty to be 'true to their beliefs' (or those of their constituents) and continue to challenge any compromise that are a consequence of Cabinet's (or perhaps the PM's) decisions! This, to me, is the 'value' of ordinary MPs! The Party Whip is, imo, not appropriate to this particularly issue! Individual MPs should also declare whether they are voting from their own opinion, or as a reflection of their electorate. They are entitled to do either, but could well suffer at the next election if they don't heed an overwhelming 'electorate' opinion!


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## Fade and Die (Jul 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so comment in the Sunday papers suggesting that maybe - just maybe - Theresa may has a cunning plan.  

Drag things out so long to the point that the timescales for putting a deal in front of the EU ahead of March 29th - with enough time to discuss and agree it - get so compressed that we realise we are very seriously running out of time - and the urgency of getting an agreed position to put to the EU forces the Brexit Fanatics in the cabinet and Westminster (Bone, Cash, Jenkin, Fox, Johnson, Davis, Patel et al) into the open with their (IMO insane) demands.  And we see their stance for what it is - self-serving and totally ideological with nary a care for the outcome.  They want Brexit over the line no matter what the cost and the impact to their party and on us all - well not on all because these fanatics won't be affected as they are 'all right jack'.

To achieve that they threaten the Prime Minister with all sorts of hellfire and damnation if she comes up with a deal that doesn't fit the demands of their relatively small numbers - they will try and bring her down - no matter the constitutional crisis that that would through up as the Tory Party would be leaderless and whither the PM - and whither the Brexit negotiations.

And all of the above makes it more possible for her to get a proposal to put to the EU agreed on Thursday - and for the Leave voters out in the country to accept the deal as being better than nothing.

I get the sense that May is just going for broke as she appreciates the mess and chaos of the current situation and the damage that _No Deal _will do to the country.  And maybe she hopes that she can sell the proposal to the country - having exposed the fanatics for what they are.

So maybe - just maybe - Theresa May has a cunning plan.

(which would be more - it has to be said - than one Mr Jeremy Corbyn)
		
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I'd have thought it would be blatantly clear? It's obvious to anyone with eyeballs that this Government doesn't actually want Brexit. Theresa May didn't want it, did she? This is a headache that they probably could do without.


All this process is doing is simply upsetting the people that fund their party come election time.


I still believe that this whole thing won't happen. They're going to muck it up royally and then somehow the process will get overturned, and the UK will get slapped back into line.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

And so - if as a result of today's Denouement Day discussions Johnson and Davis resign, can Theresa May survive?

I believe reports that tell us that she has no intention of resigning whatever.  

I very much hope that she has come down on the side of reality, and now realises that the Brexit options for leaving without significant damage to the EU economy are very limited - indeed she may have come to the conclusion that leaving the EU to include leaving the CU and the SM will be terrible.  

And so when Mrs May presents the White Paper on her proposed deal what I would dearly love to hear from Mrs May is real honesty - honesty telling the UK electorate WHY the deal being proposed is that which is the best and most pragmatic course.

Hell mend Johnson, Fox, Leadsome, David and that bunch - and I so want to see Cash and Bone exploding with rage.

Then again May might just fold.  But I don't think she will.  Her Epitaph as PM might well be - _In the end she did what she knew was right_


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I very much hope that she has come down on the side of reality, and now realises that the Brexit options for leaving without significant damage to the EU economy are very limited - indeed she may have come to the conclusion that leaving the EU to include leaving the CU and the SM will be terrible.  

And so when Mrs May presents the White Paper on her proposed deal what I would dearly love to hear from Mrs May is real honesty - honesty telling the UK electorate WHY the deal being proposed is that which is the best and most pragmatic course.

Her Epitaph as PM might well be - *In the end she did what she knew was right*

Click to expand...

So what you want from the UK leaving the EU is to stay in the Customs Union and Single Market, which will mean retaining freedom of movement, and to stay under the jurisdiction of the European Courts? Or to put it another way your solution for the UK to leave the EU is for us to remain in the EU?

RE: the bit in bold - what you actually mean is that you want her epitaph to be "She ignored the result of the referendum and kept us in the EU".


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - if as a result of today's Denouement Day discussions Johnson and Davis resign, can Theresa May survive?

I believe reports that tell us that she has no intention of resigning whatever.  

I very much hope that she has come down on the side of reality, and now realises that the Brexit options for leaving without significant damage to the EU economy are very limited - indeed she may have come to the conclusion that leaving the EU to include leaving the CU and the SM will be terrible.  

And so when Mrs May presents the White Paper on her proposed deal what I would dearly love to hear from Mrs May is real honesty - honesty telling the UK electorate WHY the deal being proposed is that which is the best and most pragmatic course.

Hell mend Johnson, Fox, Leadsome, David and that bunch - and I so want to see Cash and Bone exploding with rage.

Then again May might just fold.  But I don't think she will.  Her Epitaph as PM might well be - _In the end she did what she knew was right_

Click to expand...

34 pages - yet from page 1 is was very clear that you despise the woman and there is absolutely nothing she can do that you would view as positive.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2018)

drdel said:



			34 pages - yet from page 1 is was very clear that you despise the woman and there is absolutely nothing she can do that you would view as positive.
		
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That's spot on, just like his Brexit views he will criticize everything coming from the UK and praise all from the EU.  Even I am not that closed in my view.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 6, 2018)

To be seen on the rear of a fisherman's shack, on Hastings beach, writ large...

THERESA MAY YOU ARE LUCKY WE NO LONGER HANG PEOPLE FOR TREASON!
OUT MEANS OUT... 

A sentiment a wholly agree with...


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## bluewolf (Jul 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That's spot on, just like his Brexit views he will criticize everything coming from the UK and praise all from the EU.  Even I am not that closed in my view.
		
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Yes you are...

Brexit may just turn out to be the best thing to happen to the UK for several generations. However, due to the incredible difficulty of disentangling ourselves from decades of trade/politics, its possible that we could lose an entire generation to a self imposed recession. That generation would include both my children. You'll have to forgive me if I find the laissez faire attitude of some on here a touch annoying.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes you are...

Brexit may just turn out to be the best thing to happen to the UK for several generations. However, due to the incredible difficulty of disentangling ourselves from decades of trade/politics, its possible that we could lose an entire generation to a self imposed recession. That generation would include both my children. You'll have to forgive me if I find the laissez faire attitude of some on here a touch annoying.
		
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Well that's it all boxed up and sorted then,  lets not change anything in case it has an adverse effect on your kids.  have you considered that staying in the EU may have an adverse effect on your kids and us moving away from it may well be the best thing for their future.   I am not completely closed in my view to how we leave the EU, I am open to views that can show clearly how certain measures would be advantageous and I can understand how the EU would not want Brexit to damage their economies, I would rather we just move away and let them continue with their plans of closer integration.   Maybe you could justify your assertions as being in your opinion just as this is mine  :thup:


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2018)

Speaking to someone in the know...  all big details of 'the deal' done between May & EU.   Its will stay under wraps with people and politicians & the EU posturing on various things.  The idea is to let people think its all going to the wall and then at the last min, TM will come in as shinning armour to save the world.   We already saw it this week when suddenly all the ministers are behind a 'compromise deal' and now there are discussions on special rights for EU citizens etc.    

Any first deal would have been shot down, so plain old game of selling a dummy and then bringing on the real deal...

<dont shoot the messenger, this could all be locker room talk>>


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Speaking to someone in the know...  all big details of 'the deal' done between May & EU.   Its will stay under wraps with people and politicians & the EU posturing on various things.  The idea is to let people think its all going to the wall and then at the last min, TM will come in as shinning armour to save the world.   We already saw it this week when suddenly all the ministers are behind a 'compromise deal' and now there are discussions on special rights for EU citizens etc.    

Any first deal would have been shot down, so plain old game of selling a dummy and then bringing on the real deal...

<dont shoot the messenger, this could all be locker room talk>>
		
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This sounds remarkably like Baldrick and one of his cunning plans &#128513;. They worked okay each time didn't they?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2018)

So.â€¦.It was a case of stand up for your strong political opinions or lose the big salary and ministerial car.
I guess the not so magnificent 7 chose the Nigel Farage option:lol:
What a sorry bunch of chancers they are.


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So.â€¦.It was a case of stand up for your strong political opinions or lose the big salary and ministerial car.
I guess the not so magnificent 7 chose the Nigel Farage option:lol:
What a sorry bunch of chancers they are.
		
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Canâ€™t disagree with that. 

I wonder if theyâ€™re relying on the backbenchers and Labour to vote it down, leaving them squeaky clean and well placed to replace May.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Canâ€™t disagree with that. 

I wonder if theyâ€™re relying on the backbenchers and Labour to vote it down, leaving them squeaky clean and well placed to replace May.
		
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I don't think anyone wants the job right now. Get to next March and then take over. Now it is a poisonous job.

Spineless from a number of ministers. I agree, they are either hoping parliament or the EU will knock it back and they are then not seen as the ones who brought down the gov't.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2018)

About the only folk that will be remotely satisfied with Fridays outcomes...

Will be the fully paid up members of the Turd Polishers Union...


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think anyone wants the job right now. Get to next March and then take over. Now it is a poisonous job.

Spineless from a number of ministers. I agree, they are either hoping parliament or the EU will knock it back and they are then not seen as the ones who brought down the gov't.
		
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I did wonder if she is a stalking horse for the Tory party, or a sacrificial lamb for the poisoned chalice that is leading the party through Brexit.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I did wonder if she is a stalking horse for the Tory party, or a sacrificial lamb for the poisoned chalice that is leading the party through Brexit.
		
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I'd go with the latter. She walked into the trap with her eyes open but I do think she has made a particularly bad job of her time, poisoned chalice or not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is she got what it takes to be PM? Or is she like Gordie Broon - competent and totally comfortable in a very senior government role - but basically just not up to the job of PM.

Two recent examples of where a PM needs a thick skin but where May shows that hers is not so thick:  taking a very hard and public line on cabinet leaks when she knows that in politics leaking is part of the game.  This just gives the impression that she feels vulnerable and not in control; and the Trousergate - where she has set her #1 'attack dog' on Nicky Morgan and banned her from No10 and from attending Brexit meetings - for suggesting nigh on Â£1000 on a pair of pants in a photo shoot is not quite the message the NAACs (Not At All Coping) and JAMs needed.  That just seems petulant and counter productive.

Then there is her almost complete silence on approach to Brexit - except when she is slapping down miscreants making statements verging on Brexit policy feelers - sounds like micro-management borne of insecurity.  And my wife commented that she seems to be walking with more of a stoop these days - is the weight on her shoulders getting too much?

*I actually did have hopes for TM - but not sure she is up to it.*

Click to expand...

In post #1328 @drdel posts...

_yet from page 1 is was very clear that you despise the woman and there is absolutely nothing she can do that you would view as positive._

yes quite right - from the very start...or maybe not.

I think were you to look further back to the days just after she became PM I posted a rather positive response to her first speech as PM...I actually thought for a short while that she might be OK - her words on becoming PM were just spot on for me.  She sounded a decent proponent of 'christian democratic' principles...

And compared to the bunch she had defeated or who had pulled out she certainly seemed the best of an awful bunch.  But as it became more evident that my hopes were being dashed I opened this thread - asking the question...was she up to it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That's spot on, just like his Brexit views he will criticize everything coming from the UK and praise all from the EU.  Even I am not that closed in my view.
		
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Just wrong


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes you are...

Brexit may just turn out to be the best thing to happen to the UK for several generations. However, due to the incredible difficulty of disentangling ourselves from decades of trade/politics, its possible that we could lose an entire generation to a self imposed recession. That generation would include both my children. *You'll have to forgive me if I find the laissez faire attitude of some on here a touch annoying.*

Click to expand...

Just a touch...


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes you are...

Brexit may just turn out to be the best thing to happen to the UK for several generations. However, due to the incredible difficulty of disentangling ourselves from decades of trade/politics,* its possible that we could lose an entire generation to a self imposed recession.* That generation would include both my children. You'll have to forgive me if I find the laissez faire attitude of some on here a touch annoying.
		
Click to expand...

It's also possible that we might not lose an entire generation to a self imposed recession.

We've never left the EU before so no one knows what's going to happen.

Some see doom and gloom, others see a great opportunity.
I suggest only time will tell


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## chrisd (Jul 8, 2018)

bobmac said:



			We've never left the EU before so no one knows what's going to happen.
		
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I suspect someone will post up soon exactly what will happen &#129300;


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2018)

David Davis has resigned.


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## jp5 (Jul 8, 2018)

Can only imagine how we look to Brussels, a right shambles! Apparently "Brexit means Brexit" only gets you so far.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Can only imagine how we look to Brussels, a right shambles! Apparently "Brexit means Brexit" only gets you so far.
		
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And who is to blame for that then.  We are a country tainted by slithering backstabbing spineless people who are working to frustrate democracy so they can overturn the referendum vote.  I am ashamed of what we have become, we all know that the majority vote was to leave the EU in total, anyone saying otherwise is playing games with the truth.   Because of this stupidity the Government will now probably fall and we will get what we deserve, Corbyn and his pathetic hangers on, then you will see the country brought to it's knees and  the economy ruined for another generation. OH! and the EU will not be able to stop that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			And who is to blame for that then.  We are a country tainted by slithering backstabbing spineless people who are working to frustrate democracy so they can overturn the referendum vote.  I am ashamed of what we have become, we all know that the majority vote was to leave the EU in total, anyone saying otherwise is playing games with the truth.   Because of this stupidity the Government will now probably fall and we will get what we deserve, Corbyn and his pathetic hangers on, then you will see the country brought to it's knees and  the economy ruined for another generation. OH! and the EU will not be able to stop that.
		
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[sigh]
It was a very small majority, a 2% swing would have seen a different result.
The Leave leader said that a small majority for Stay would be 'unfinished business'

Davis seemed to want the negotiations to fail from day one, no sad loss, not up to the job.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			[sigh]
It was a very small majority, a 2% swing would have seen a different result.
The Leave leader said that a small majority for Stay would be 'unfinished business'

Davis seemed to want the negotiations to fail from day one, no sad loss, not up to the job.
		
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He was supposed to be the man in charge of the plan - and he has just been telling _Today_ that it was May who has just in the last week or so come up with this plan.  So either there was a plan when she triggered Art50 or there wasn't.  And if the Lancaster House objectives were 'the plan' - well as was stated many timed - having blue sky objectives is not the same as having a plan to achieve an outcome given known constraints.  And these constraints were known before the vote and before Art50 was triggered - but in their deluded and duplicitous arrogance the _Leave_ campaign convinced many voters that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and so the EU constraints would have to flex to enable the UK objectives to be met.

Well that thinking hasn't got us very far.

Is May up to the job of PM? Let's see whether or not there are 48 Kamikaze Brexiteer (Dan Hodges MoS) Tory MPs who think that she isn't.


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## rudebhoy (Jul 9, 2018)

Going to be an interesting week. If the hardliners are serious about toppling her, now is the time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He was supposed to be the man in charge of the plan - and he has just been telling _Today_ that it was May who has just in the last week or so come up with this plan.  So either there was a plan when she triggered Art50 or there wasn't.  And if the Lancaster House objectives were 'the plan' - well as was stated many timed - having blue sky objectives is not the same as having a plan to achieve an outcome given known constraints.  And these constraints were known before the vote and before Art50 was triggered - but in their deluded and duplicitous arrogance the _Leave_ campaign convinced many voters that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and so the EU constraints would have to flex to enable the UK objectives to be met.

Well that thinking hasn't got us very far.

Is May up to the job of PM? Let's see whether or not there are 48 Kamikaze Brexiteer (Dan Hodges MoS) Tory MPs who think that she isn't.
		
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They will self destruct it is in their nature.
Remember the wilderness years of Howard/Haig etc, endless infighting.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So either there was a plan when she triggered Art50 or there wasn't.
		
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Correct.

Trying to prove there was no plan gets us where exactly?


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## jp5 (Jul 9, 2018)

Still find it baffling that the PM at this time is someone who didn't (doesn't?) believe in the project. About time one of the prominent leave campaigners steps up and takes responsibility before we slide into a situation that leaves no one happy!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

So, is Jeremy Hunt as big a [insert suitable adjective] as he came across as on the telly this morning?

With a colleague like him who needs enemies...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

jp5 said:



			â€¦. before we slide into a situation that leaves no one happy!
		
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I would suggest we are past that point already...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Correct.

Trying to prove there was no plan gets us where exactly?
		
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It gets an admission that Remain voters were correct in their concerns that there did not seem to be a plan, and that without a plan things would not go well.  And concerns were dismissed as naive moaning - and we were assured there was a plan but the government could not reveal it as doing so would undermine our negotiating position.

So why should I vaguely trust anything a Brexiteer tells me about the future and an alternative plan to May's that will deliver a glorious Brexit future - because - to coin a phrase - one thing I know for a fact - unicorns do not exist.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2018)

With a 52-48% vote it was unlikely to please many people anyway. The govt have tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one. Perhaps would have been better having conviction of an approach and ploughing down that route. Two years in and most of us are none the wiser as to what the govt are negotiating over. It is still wishy washy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Still find it baffling that the PM at this time is someone who didn't (doesn't?) believe in the project. About time one of the prominent leave campaigners steps up and takes responsibility before we slide into a situation that leaves no one happy!
		
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We'd have had Boris Johnson as PM; Michael Gove as Home Secretary, and Andrea Leadsom as Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Well what fun that would have been.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It gets an admission that Remain voters were correct in their concerns that there did not seem to be a plan, and that without a plan things would not go well.  And concerns were dismissed as naive moaning - and we were assured there was a plan but the government could not reveal it as doing so would undermine our negotiating position.

.
		
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Assuming all that is true (which I don't) for arguments sake, just say you prove there was no plan, now what?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			So, is Jeremy Hunt as big a [insert suitable adjective] as he came across as on the telly this morning?

With a colleague like him who needs enemies...
		
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I have just Emailed him again - he is my MP


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Assuming all that is true (which I don't) for arguments sake, just say you prove there was no plan, now what?
		
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What more proof do you need other than the fact that May has had to get the cabinet together to review and agree a plan.  If there was a plan it has not been very evident given that we have not yet entered discussions of the future trade deal and would have done so if the plan had existed.   We know for a FACT that Barnier has been sitting waiting for the UK to tell him what we want.  Were there a plan we'd have been in discussions with him.  

There was never a plan.  And you now know that that is the case.  Leavers just need to get over the uncomfortable truth that you were deceived by the government into trusting that there was one.

And we can perhaps conclude that maybe the whole Leave rationale has been one big deceit - a giant lie wrapped up in nationalist ideas of sovereignty - with Leaving the EU no more than the obsession of a bunch of kamikaze Brextremists having little or no regard for the future of the country - and with no idea of the impact of leaving.

The problem for May is that her plan laid out the REALITY.  And the likes of Davis, Fox, Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg deny 100% that reality.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Assuming all that is true (which I don't)...
		
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Well, I DO believe it was true - though I'm pretty certain that those saying 'there is a plan' were really meaning 'there will be a plan aka there's a plan to make a plan!' which, imo, is classic politic-speak!



bobmac said:



			...just say you prove there was no plan, now what?
		
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Totally agree with this sentiment!

There is absolutely no point arguing the toss about petty points like whether there was a plan or not! Cameron cerainly didn't have one. And when May replaced him, a plan - of sorts - was created. How well that 'plan' has worked out is another issue!

Now, back to the topic of this thread....May has a serious 'challenge' ahead of her - how to hold her party together, starting with Cabinet, over this issue! I'm not sure she's actually to it, though I certainly wish her well! Personally, I believe Davis was doing a pretty good job - though I may be giving him too much 'benefit of the doubt' over some serious issues/questions! 

It's quite possibly time for a hard-liner, perhaps (like) Gove, to take over. Though, to me, he's one of the most detestable MPs - for a number of reasons!


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## PieMan (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There was never a plan.  And you now know that that is the case.  Leavers just need to get over the uncomfortable truth that you were deceived by the government into trusting that there was one.
		
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FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit; and to reflect each element of the Brexit delivery process and each different scenario; whether that's at a UK level, i.e. the number of Bills that are needed going through Parliament, or in the negotiations with the European Commission. 

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!

If you continue to believe differently then you should go and seek some professional help......or just take your head out of your backside. Although my money is on you doing neither and just keep on going on......and on.....and on.....and on.....and on.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			FFS - there has *always been a 'plan'*, in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit;...

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!
...[/QUOTE
I'm inclined to SILH's view that there was never a plan - except to plan for a plan! - until it became obvious that there needed to be one!

And it was (a little over) 2 years ago that that need actually arose! That'll be the '2 years' since the Referendum voted Leave!

But, as I posted, what does it matter that there wasn't a plan in place at that time! 

FWIW....When did you begin your active/detailed planning? As opposed to simply identifying the sorts of things (high level stuff) that would be needed in 'the plan'.
		
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## User62651 (Jul 9, 2018)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_npFEdZsE8:fore:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2018)

Raab has got the gig...â€¦.pity it is not Rab.


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## PieMan (Jul 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:





PieMan said:



			FFS - there has *always been a 'plan'*, in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit;...

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!
...[/QUOTE
I'm inclined to SILH's view that there was never a plan - except to plan for a plan! - until it became obvious that there needed to be one!

And it was (a little over) 2 years ago that that need actually arose! That'll be the '2 years' since the Referendum voted Leave!

But, as I posted, what does it matter that there wasn't a plan in place at that time! 

FWIW....When did you begin your active/detailed planning? As opposed to simply identifying the sorts of things (high level stuff) that would be needed in 'the plan'.
		
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Civil Service starts planning before any election/Referendum during the Purdah period, particularly where there are likely changes of Government or Ministers; so manifestos are considered against existing policies and therefore likely scenarios. Obviously a 'NO' vote at the Referendum would've meant no change.

The day after the Referendum result my department therefore started fleshing out what the 'YES' vote meant in more detail.

I state again that to say there was no 'plan' is incorrect. 

But hey, believe what you will. I'm content with what I know.
		
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## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Assuming all that is true (which I don't) for arguments sake, just say you prove there was no plan, now what?
		
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It proves heâ€™s right Bob, that we were all had over about the lack of a plan. I donâ€™t remember the ballot paper saying anything about a plan, just whether I wanted to stay or go, so like you Iâ€™m quite happy that I wasnâ€™t deceived at the ballot box, and you know he has to be right.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2018)

I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists 

:rofl:

I'm out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists 

:rofl:

I'm out
		
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Complain to Dan Hodges of the Mail on Sunday for coining it...or at least starting to use it.  

Besides - methinks you complain too much.  I have ONLY used the term in exactly the same context as Dan Hodges - in respect of those MPs hell bent on the UK leaving the EU at whatever cost and no matter what.  At no point have I even _suggested _that it might apply to any leave voters.

But if it suits a Leave agenda to choose to wilfully misunderstand so that accusations can be hurled - then hurl away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit; and to reflect each element of the Brexit delivery process and each different scenario; whether that's at a UK level, i.e. the number of Bills that are needed going through Parliament, or in the negotiations with the European Commission. 

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!

If you continue to believe differently then you should go and seek some professional help......or just take your head out of your backside. Although my money is on you doing neither and just keep on going on......and on.....and on.....and on.....and on.
		
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I do not doubt that much detailed level work has been going on to try and sort out how on earth the UK will operate once out of the EU.  Though pray tell how these Low level Plans can be fully defined when there has not been a High Level Plan - and given that the most recent Solution has just been rejected there is currently no High Level Plan.

In my industry you don't write the Low Level Design until the Solution Design Document has been signed off by the customer; at which point you write the High Level Design.  You get that reviewed and signed off internally - and then present it to the customer for their review and sign-off.  At the point you can move on to develop the Low Level Design.  Much of the LLD can be done in advance given a fair understanding of what you are going to be doing - but you CANNOT finish it - and therefore CANNOT implement it unless you take a huge risk.

On Friday the Cabinet reviewed and approved the SDD and Davis was about to develop the HLD to share and discuss with the EU.  But before we even got to that point key customers in the Tory Party have rejected the SDD - and it looks to be up in the air - we shall see how May holds the line on it.

So yes.  I have no doubt that much Low Level design and planning has been ongoing.  And much will apply on the basis that we leave the EU on 29th March and so planning for what _that _means can progress.  But it cannot be completed and implemented without an approved solution and high level design unless a huge risk is take.  And the UK parliament and electorate may not be willing to take that risk - and the only way we can know that would be for there to be a referendum on the leave deal agreed with the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			It proves heâ€™s right Bob, that we were all had over about the lack of a plan. I donâ€™t remember the ballot paper saying anything about a plan, just whether I wanted to stay or go, so like you Iâ€™m quite happy that I wasnâ€™t deceived at the ballot box, and you know he has to be right.
		
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There is much that the ballot paper did not say that many are now saying was clearly implied.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:





Foxholer said:



			Civil Service starts planning before any election/Referendum during the Purdah period, particularly where there are likely changes of Government or Ministers; so manifestos are considered against existing policies and therefore likely scenarios. Obviously a 'NO' vote at the Referendum would've meant no change.

The day after the Referendum result my department therefore started fleshing out what the 'YES' vote meant in more detail.

I state again that to say there was no 'plan' is incorrect. 

But hey, believe what you will. I'm content with what I know.
		
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I agree and know the Government /Civil Service have been working hard on their plans and budget projection. For obvious reasons of confidentiality their work is not published.

So into the void the blinkered and myopic make up their own truths. 

I'm sorry but you need to realise that there are many on here who have dug a trench so deep that they can't see over the top.

In their world the only truth is the one they believe/desired/constructed.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

drdel said:





PieMan said:



			I agree and know the Government /Civil Service have been working hard on their plans and budget projection. For obvious reasons of confidentiality their work is not published.

So into the void the blinkered and myopic make up their own truths. 

I'm sorry but you need to realise that there are many on here who have dug a trench so deep that they can't see over the top.

*In their world the only truth is the one they believe/desired/constructed*.
		
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That somewhere over the rainbow there will be unicorns... ?
		
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## PieMan (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not doubt that much detailed level work has been going on to try and sort out how on earth the UK will operate once out of the EU.  Though pray tell how these Low level Plans can be fully defined when there has not been a High Level Plan - and given that the most recent Solution has just been rejected there is currently no High Level Plan.

In my industry you don't write the Low Level Design until the Solution Design Document has been signed off by the customer; at which point you write the High Level Design.  You get that reviewed and signed off internally - and then present it to the customer for their review and sign-off.  At the point you can move on to develop the Low Level Design.  Much of the LLD can be done in advance given a fair understanding of what you are going to be doing - but you CANNOT finish it - and therefore CANNOT implement it unless you take a huge risk.

On Friday the Cabinet reviewed and approved the SDD and Davis was about to develop the HLD to share and discuss with the EU.  But before we even got to that point key customers in the Tory Party have rejected the SDD - and it looks to be up in the air - we shall see how May holds the line on it.

So yes.  I have no doubt that much Low Level design and planning has been ongoing.  And much will apply on the basis that we leave the EU on 29th March and so planning for what _that _means can progress.  But it cannot be completed and implemented without an approved solution and high level design unless a huge risk is take.  And the UK parliament and electorate may not be willing to take that risk - and the only way we can know that would be for there to be a referendum on the leave deal agreed with the EU.
		
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I'm a tad confused. So you are now accepting 'plans' have actually been made then with regard to our withdrawal from the EU? Because that's all what you've been banging on about - the lack of a 'plan'! The overarching 'plan' is to ensure the UK leaves the EU on the best possible terms possible, for ourselves and them - how that is achieved will always be subject to change as the negotiations continue; and will only be agreed (of that is indeed the case) late in the day - it always is with the EU.

And you say about a final sign off from the 'customer', well that's clearly the EU is it not? And to this date they have only been prepared to sign-off parts of the 'plan' (ie the IP).

And no, a further referendum is not needed. I believe that the electorate understood that there were risks in leaving the EU, but these were worth taking.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

Autumn election anyone?

I'd be amazed if there isn't...


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			I'm a tad confused. So you are now accepting 'plans' have actually been made then with regard to our withdrawal from the EU? Because that's all what you've been banging on about - the lack of a 'plan'! The overarching 'plan' is to ensure the UK leaves the EU on the best possible terms possible, for ourselves and them - how that is achieved will always be subject to change as the negotiations continue; and will only be agreed (of that is indeed the case) late in the day - it always is with the EU.

And you say about a final sign off from the 'customer', well that's clearly the EU is it not? And to this date they have only been prepared to sign-off parts of the 'plan' (ie the IP).

And no, a further referendum is not needed. I believe that the electorate understood that there were risks in leaving the EU, but these were worth taking.
		
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Oh dear more sensible comments - I've told you before logic and reasoning 'butter no carrots' here!!!


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists 

:rofl:

I'm out
		
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SILH way, and then he blames it on a quote from someone else. Insulting individual who hasn't the courage to acknowledge his posts.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That somewhere over the rainbow there will be unicorns... ?
		
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Well, that's what 'the electorate' voted for!

Don't blame May for that! Nor Cameron, though his 'campaign' was pretty pathetic and he fell on his sword very soon after the result was confirmed!

It does, however, seem that 'democracy' may not be well served or may even bypassed as it has too often in the past imo. The Government is likely to be too frightened of getting a 'bad' result if either Parliament of (perish the thought) 'The Electorate' gets a vote on the final deal!


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## Griffsters (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:





drdel said:



			That somewhere over the rainbow there will be unicorns... ?
		
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Oh there had better be unicorns aplenty, otherwise lots of people are going to be mighty disappointed.
		
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## IanM (Jul 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Autumn election anyone?

I'd be amazed if there isn't...
		
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Need a thread now on what might happen in if the IRA/HAMAS Chap gets in as Prime Minister!  and Abacus as Home Secretary!  Brexit will be small spuds if that happens!


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## PieMan (Jul 9, 2018)

Boris now resigns!

So that's the end of the May Government methinks and it will be a Government that will take a firmer approach with Brexit.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2018)

You have to think the house of cards will be coming down now.

Amazing time to be in a news office. The govt is falling apart, the Thai boys are coming out and so far so good, a lady has died from a horrible nerve agent and England are in the semi's of the World Cup. If ever there was a day to slip out bad news...â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			Need a thread now on what might happen in if the IRA/HAMAS Chap gets in as Prime Minister!  and Abacus as Home Secretary!  Brexit will be small spuds if that happens!
		
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And so it begins...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2018)

BBC reporting that Boris has also quit. Is this the beginning of the end either for Theresa May or for Brexit?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44770847


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## Dellboy (Jul 9, 2018)

Good man Bojo, now all we need is May to go and then we can get on with carrying out the wishes of the people of this fine and wonderful land and leave the EU before it destroys itself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2018)

Iâ€™m all confused so help me out 

The vote was - Leave the Eu - Yes or No 

There was â€œzeroâ€ specifics of what exactly that entailed - just a yes or no 

So the plan they have come up with would result in us leaving the EU which is what the vote was ? 

So when was the vote for all this â€œHard, Soft , No dealâ€ Brexit ? 

All these dirty tricks from cabinet ministers who didnâ€™t have the bottle to front the party to take us out of the EU are pathetic and are playing with peopleâ€™s lives. As soon as the yes vote happened people like Johnson went hiding into his rat infested corner because he knew it wasnâ€™t going to be easy but didnâ€™t have the moral fibre to take any sort of lead - instead sniping away from behind peopleâ€™s backs. Far too many people have been playing political games with our nations future 

Right now I would rather the Queen ran the country and get rid of all these politicians that only look after themselves. 

The vote was to leave the EU and thatâ€™s what the plan is - deal with it and move on


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## IanM (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Boris now resigns!

So that's the end of the May Government methinks and it will be a Government that will take a firmer approach with Brexit.
		
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mmm...got a very big project going through approval right now, don't need a Purdah thanks!  (Actually, I might mean 3 months holiday!  - no pay though!)


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## IanM (Jul 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m all confused so help me out 

The vote was - Leave the Eu - Yes or No 

There was â€œzeroâ€ specifics of what exactly that entailed - just a yes or no
		
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Actually Phil, it was clearly defined in Cameron's Pamphlet, and spelled out often by Remain in their Campaign (as a warning!)

When Leave won the Vote - Hard/Soft Brexit seems to have been invented as a fall back position to keep us tied to it.  If Theresa's plan was your golf club it would be as follows:

1) You have resigned and left. 
2) But you still pay subs and agree to be bound by Club Rules
3) You cannot join or play at certain other golf clubs


Feel free to disagree but that was my reading of the terms (bit of poetic licence by only a little!)


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Boris now resigns!

So that's the end of the May Government methinks and it will be a Government that will take a firmer approach with Brexit.
		
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Why do I suspect that his resignation was purely selfish opportunism!

Btw. Just seen a really good performance by Davis https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44767321


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2018)

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn tells MPs: "To be fair - and I want to be fair to the former Brexit secretary and the former foreign secretary - I think they would have resigned on the spot on Friday.
"But they were faced with a very long walk, no phone and dueto government cuts no bus service either.
"So I think they were probably wise to hang on for a coupleof days so they could get a lift home in a government car."

You may not like Corbyn but you have to smile at that gag. Applaud his script writer at least.


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## Papas1982 (Jul 9, 2018)

Since the vote was taking we've had countless months of remainers wanting us to stay, protesting its not right etc etc. This has generally from what i've seen been deemed as reasonable debate (sore losers imo), not that we finally have a plan in place people seem surprised that those wanting to leave have iced off at the terms. 

It now seems that both sides of the argument aren't getting what they want so the stropping will simply intensify from both sides.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

There is one thing that will create a place for Theresa May in the pantheon of brave and honest Prime Ministers.  

She needs to schedule a broadcast to the nation - on which she explains that Brexit is a complete and utter mess and that it cannot proceed.  She needs to explain clearly to the electorate *why *there is no deal that will see the UK other than very much worse off and with much diminished European and Global influence.  

She must make it absolutely clear *why *a No Deal Brexit - which would see us crash out of the EU on 29th March 2019 without a transition to WTO and all that that entails - would be disastrous for the UK economy, jobs and businesses relying upon significant Imports/Exports.

She has to be honest to the UK electorate - and she has to make this statement with the support of her cabinet - with her cabinet by her side.

I suspect that May knows all of this - but at the moment she is trying to solve an unsolvable conundrum, an unsolvable riddle, without making the admission that Brexit is not achievable without significant and long Lasting damage to the UK, and that she and her cabinet will not be responsible for that happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Since the vote was taking we've had countless months of remainers wanting us to stay, protesting its not right etc etc. This has generally from what i've seen been deemed as reasonable debate (sore losers imo), not that we finally have a plan in place people seem surprised that those wanting to leave have iced off at the terms. 

It now seems that both sides of the argument aren't getting what they want so the stropping will simply intensify from both sides.
		
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Before we know it Leavers will be looking for a referendum on the deal.  

And meanwhile Rees-Mogg has been telling us that the UK is heading towards a No Deal by accident rather than design.  Oh how duplicitous you are.  Rees-Mogg, the ERG and their ilk propose a form of Brexit - an adherence to May's Red Lines - that can only lead to a No Deal - BY DESIGN.  R-M is laying the groundwork for a No Deal scenario where he can blame everyone but himself and fellow Brexiteers.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Before we know it Leavers will be looking for a referendum on the deal.  

And meanwhile Rees-Mogg has been telling us that the UK is heading towards a No Deal by accident rather than design.  Oh how duplicitous you are.  Rees-Mogg, the ERG and their ilk propose a form of Brexit - an adherence to May's Red Lines - that can only lead to a No Deal - BY DESIGN.  R-M is laying the groundwork for a No Deal scenario where he can blame everyone but himself and fellow Brexiteers.
		
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The vote was to leave, there is no requirement for a Deal. Usually it can be useful but the EU are only interested in frightening the other 27 not the future of the countries and their populations. Logic has evaporated.


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## Griffsters (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She needs to schedule a broadcast to the nation - on which she explains that Brexit is a complete and utter mess and that it cannot proceed.  She needs to explain clearly to the electorate *why *there is no deal that will see the UK other than very much worse off and with much diminished European and Global influence.  

She must make it absolutely clear *why *a No Deal Brexit - which would see us crash out of the EU on 29th March 2019 without a transition to WTO and all that that entails - would be disastrous for the UK economy, jobs and businesses relying upon significant Imports/Exports.
		
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The problem is that realism has been rebranded as project fear, positions are so entrenched people are no longer listening - if they ever were quite frankly.

Tragic on so many levels.


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2018)

Brexit isn't a mess. It hasn't happened, the PM's refusal to properly manage our exit is.  

Everything you have ever posted on here ignores the fact they trade is reciprocal, and we are in deficit to the EU.

Go and see the Juncker Quote thread... it is quite clear what we are dealing with.


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## Old Skier (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Before we know it Leavers will be looking for a referendum on the deal.
		
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You wish. The last hope of the remainers, get the leavers to ask for another vote. How many times do you need to be told - It's not going to happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Before we know it Leavers will be looking for a referendum on the deal.  

And meanwhile Rees-Mogg has been telling us that the UK is heading towards a No Deal by accident rather than design.  Oh how duplicitous you are.  Rees-Mogg, the ERG and their ilk propose a form of Brexit - an adherence to May's Red Lines - that can only lead to a No Deal - BY DESIGN.  R-M is laying the groundwork for a No Deal scenario where he can blame everyone but himself and fellow Brexiteers.
		
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No Deal!  I guess that means Brexit then.   In our referendum we were asked if we wanted to leave the EU or not, we decided we wanted to leave, since that time words like  'Cliff Edge' 'Crashing out'    have been created to scare people. No one asked us if we wanted a 'Deal'  I guess it would be in the interests of the EU for us to agree a trade deal with them as they want us to accept most of the constraints that are shackled to the other EU countries, no one else they have agreed trade deals with need to agree things like freedom of anyone in the EU to come and live in their countries  or the superiority of the ECJ over their own courts but seems like we would need to.   I honestly believe a quick withdraw from the EU would be the best thing for us, we could then get on with designing our own direction.   If the EU would like to continue access to our markets then they would need to start asking us nicely.  All the talk from big business has been IMO gerrymongered by some of our own government, just like Cameron did with Obama.   The Irish border is as much a project for the EU to solve as us, I believe if we were left to sort it then it would be no big problem.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is one thing that will create a place for Theresa May in the pantheon of brave and honest Prime Ministers.  

She needs to schedule a broadcast to the nation - on which she explains that Brexit is a complete and utter mess and that it cannot proceed.  She needs to explain clearly to the electorate *why *there is no deal that will see the UK other than very much worse off and with much diminished European and Global influence.  

She must make it absolutely clear *why *a No Deal Brexit - which would see us crash out of the EU on 29th March 2019 without a transition to WTO and all that that entails - would be disastrous for the UK economy, jobs and businesses relying upon significant Imports/Exports.

She has to be honest to the UK electorate - and she has to make this statement with the support of her cabinet - with her cabinet by her side.

I suspect that May knows all of this - but at the moment she is trying to solve an unsolvable conundrum, an unsolvable riddle, without making the admission that Brexit is not achievable without significant and long Lasting damage to the UK, and that she and her cabinet will not be responsible for that happening.
		
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Last week Mark Carney, Gov to the Bank of England, admitted he had got the Brexit predictions very wrong. I have admired Carney for quite a while. He is very much on top of his brief. If an expert like him can get it wrong, with all the resources at his disposal, pray tell how you believe you have the facts that lead you to your conclusions.

Lets be honest here, you donâ€™t have a clue if youâ€™re right or wrong. You absolutely believe what certain experts are telling you. Just think back on some of the experts that have said it will be a disaster, and that the economy will totally tank even before Brexit day. They have been proven wrong.

Is it even remotely possible for you to acknowledge that you could be wrong? Are you open minded or is it blind faith in the propaganda you have been fed. You lauded the experts, like  Carney and Osbourne, and your faith has been proven to be ill founded.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Last week Mark Carney, Gov to the Bank of England, admitted he had got the Brexit predictions very wrong. I have admired Carney for quite a while. He is very much on top of his brief. If an expert like him can get it wrong, with all the resources at his disposal, pray tell how you believe you have the facts that lead you to your conclusions.

Lets be honest here, you donâ€™t have a clue if youâ€™re right or wrong. You absolutely believe what certain experts are telling you. Just think back on some of the experts that have said it will be a disaster, and that the economy will totally tank even before Brexit day. They have been proven wrong.

Is it even remotely possible for you to acknowledge that you could be wrong? Are you open minded or is it blind faith in the propaganda you have been fed. You lauded the experts, like  Carney and Osbourne, and your faith has been proven to be ill founded.
		
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A couple of years ago you used to endlessly quote GDP and Greece/Ireland etc when it came to the British economy....funny how you have gone all quiet on it now.
The same question you are asking Hogan could also be asked of you.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A couple of years ago you used to endlessly quote GDP and Greece/Ireland etc when it came to the British economy....funny how you have gone all quiet on it now.
The same question you are asking Hogan could also be asked of you.
		
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Why is it funny? Iâ€™m not deliberately avoiding GDP. The Bank of England has revised the last 2 GDP predictions up. Employment is at its highest levels since 1974, and thatâ€™s on the back of an ever increasing population. Manufacturing is at its highest levels since 2008. Tax revenues are at their highest levels in 4 years, with the oil industry paying taxes for the first time in 3 years. The UKâ€™s economy dipped from 5th in the world to 7th, and is now at 6th. 

For all that, I expect the economy will blip after Brexit as new trading mechanisms are brought in.

But as youâ€™re asking the questions perhaps you would like to acknowledge that several leading experts, like the Gov of the Bank of England, have got it wrong with their doom and gloom predictions. And that if they can get it wrong, how accurate are us armchair experts?


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon hasn't been tracking Youth Unemployment in those places either............ how bad would those figures be if the more proactive ones hadn't moved to London!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			Doon hasn't been tracking Youth Unemployment in those places either............ how bad would those figures be if the more proactive ones hadn't moved to London! 

Click to expand...

I have however been tracking GDP to find that the UK is bottom of the list of EU countries.
Nice bit of avoidance there......GDP to youth unemployment.....some leap.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Last week Mark Carney, Gov to the Bank of England, admitted he had got the Brexit predictions very wrong. I have admired Carney for quite a while. He is very much on top of his brief. If an expert like him can get it wrong, with all the resources at his disposal, pray tell how you believe you have the facts that lead you to your conclusions.

Lets be honest here, you donâ€™t have a clue if youâ€™re right or wrong. You absolutely believe what certain experts are telling you. Just think back on some of the experts that have said it will be a disaster, and that the economy will totally tank even before Brexit day. They have been proven wrong.

Is it even remotely possible for you to acknowledge that you could be wrong? Are you open minded or is it blind faith in the propaganda you have been fed. You lauded the experts, like  Carney and Osbourne, and your faith has been proven to be ill founded.
		
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I simply do not have any evidence that tells me that we WILL be BETTER off from leaving the EU - given that the Â£350m a week will be swallowed up keeping things as close to as they are today.

My position is simply based upon 'better the devil I know than the devil I don't'.  No matter how uncertain the UK's economic future in the EU might be - at least we can control or at least influence that (as we have done very successfully for decades) - and I suggest that our economic future in the EU is a lot more certain that our future out of the EU. 

Add to that I am convinced that immigration is far more toxic and of critical importance to many leave votes than many would care to admit.  And when access to services does not improve after leaving unless significant additional funding is ploughed in -  and the pop cannot reduce as EU27 citizens already here will not depart the UK in great numbers - then the blame will be laid at their door.  And that will not be good.

In fact my worries for the UK are less economic - the UK will find a new economic level whatever that is - rather my worries are more in respect of future social stability when things don't improve - indeed when economic issues make them worse.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have however been tracking GDP to find that the UK is bottom of the list of EU countries.
Nice bit of avoidance there......GDP to youth unemployment.....some leap.

Click to expand...

No Google in your house then?   Bottom eh?

List of nominal GDP for European countries in billion USD

1st Germany 3,684.816 
2nd United Kingdom 2,624.529 
3rd France 2,583.560 
4th Italy 1,937.8 


and if you don't understand that, you won't understand the link to Youth Unemployment....


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## bluewolf (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			No Google in your house then?   Bottom eh?

List of nominal GDP for European countries in billion USD

1st Germany 3,684.816 
2nd United Kingdom 2,624.529 
3rd France 2,583.560 
4th Italy 1,937.8 


and if you don't understand that, you won't understand the link to Youth Unemployment....
		
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I suspect he's talking about GDP growth. Not that I want to support his views...


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

OK  - GDP growth.....  a numerical rise or fall  in GDP in Lithuania represents much larger percentage change than similar in Germany, France or the UK.  

See where this is going?


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is one thing that will create a place for Theresa May in the pantheon of brave and honest Prime Ministers.  

She needs to schedule a broadcast to the nation - on which she explains that Brexit is a complete and utter mess and that it cannot proceed.  She needs to explain clearly to the electorate *why *there is no deal that will see the UK other than very much worse off and with much diminished European and Global influence.  

She must make it absolutely clear *why *a No Deal Brexit - which would see us crash out of the EU on 29th March 2019 without a transition to WTO and all that that entails - would be disastrous for the UK economy, jobs and businesses relying upon significant Imports/Exports.

She has to be honest to the UK electorate - and she has to make this statement with the support of her cabinet - with her cabinet by her side.

I suspect that May knows all of this - but at the moment she is trying to solve an unsolvable conundrum, an unsolvable riddle, without making the admission that Brexit is not achievable without significant and long Lasting damage to the UK, and that she and her cabinet will not be responsible for that happening.
		
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Sorry, but most of the above is absolute twaddle!

IMO, only the last paragraph is anywhere near correct - and even then is what 'the electorate' voted for, so she's stuck with it! It's all about mitigation and compromise, something the EU is traditionally very poor at imo - though it shouldn't be!


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## bluewolf (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			OK  - GDP growth.....  a numerical rise or fall  in GDP in Lithuania represents much larger percentage change than similar in Germany, France or the UK.  

See where this is going?  

Click to expand...

It's going to show that you can prove any argument with statistics &#128521;


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

Eureka!

I wrote my last 2 replies without being conscious whether I was replying to Swing Like Hogan or Down From Troon.

I am now thinking that the author is the same person using two screen names. The errors are too consistent.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's going to show that you can prove any argument with statistics &#55357;&#56841;
		
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Hardly.  He said we were bottom of GDP.  When we are not.


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's going to show that you can prove any argument with statistics &#128521;
		
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Wrong!

But you can assert (virtually) anything!


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## bluewolf (Jul 11, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong!

But you can assert (virtually) anything!
		
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Previous warnings from Mods prevent me from saying what I want to say, so I'll be polite. 

Please refrain from posting your overly pedantic replies to any more of my lighthearted comments. It doesn't "assert" what you think it does. It merely "asserts" that you are a humourless buffoon.............

And breathe......


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			Hardly.  He said we were bottom of GDP.  When we are not.
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league


According to The Guardian we are.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league


According to The Guardian we are.
		
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Huge whoooosh................................ I thought you didn't understand my two previous posts... but I appreciate you confirming it.


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## Dibby (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league


According to The Guardian we are.
		
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That's GDP growth, not GDP.

Would you rather increase your 300 yard drive by 10%, or your 200 yard drive by 20%?


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## bluewolf (Jul 11, 2018)

Dibby said:



			That's GDP growth, not GDP.

Would you rather increase your 300 yard drive by 10%, or your 200 yard drive by 20%?
		
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&#128077;

Or, would you rather your average drive of 250 yards be increasing over time or staying static?

Note, this is lighthearted. It's a golf forum. It's not Crown Court &#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128514;


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## Dibby (Jul 11, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			&#62541;

Or, would you rather your average drive of 250 yards be increasing over time or staying static?

Note, this is lighthearted. It's a golf forum. It's not Crown Court &#62541;&#62541;&#62541;&#62978;
		
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You would always want your drive to be increasing, but it's generally accepted that there will be diminishing returns the longer your drive already is. 
Someone who can hit driver 150 is likely to have a lot more potential to gain than someone who belts it 350, even if they may never get close to the longer hitter.

Of course it's a bit of fun, and we even made it golf relevent!


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## User62651 (Jul 11, 2018)

Thread seems to have wandered way off topic too. 

So May survives and is arguably stronger than a few days ago with some of her backstabbers out of cabinet.  
Even with 48 letters of no-confidence to Tory HQ there isn't a desire for a leadership contest in rest of the Tory ranks so ranks would back May. Not sure anyone would beat her in a leadership battle anyway, the hard Brexiteers won't get the votes and Johnson's stock has fallen of late, too marmite anyway. Those that say a Brexiteer should be PM are blinkered, being PM includes Brexit but it's only a small part of what a PM needs to do in their role.

Could be May until the next GE which doesn't need to be called until 2022.

She may be rubbish in front of a camera but she's dogged and thick skinned. Wonder if she enjoys her job?:fore:


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league


According to The Guardian we are.
		
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:rofl: :rofl:

That's what I consider the '(Sir) Robert Muldoon approach to statistics'! As PM, or perhaps simply Minister of Finance, at the time, he tried to convince the NZ public that because 'the rate of increase in inflation was decreasing', it was a sign that he was getting the economy under control! How's that for L, DL and Stats! Btw. the figures were something like 18% for that month where previous months had been 16.5 and 14.5! That (late 70's to early '80s) was an 'interesting' time! I was even working for the Dept of Statistics for some of it!

@Bluewolf... Apologies if you mistook my 'correction' as a humourlous over-reaction. Stats, and their misuse, are (or at least were) a topic somewhat dear to my heart/education/career!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Thread seems to have wandered way off topic too. 

So May survives and is arguably stronger than a few days ago with some of her backstabbers out of cabinet.  
Even with 48 letters of no-confidence to Tory HQ there isn't a desire for a leadership contest in rest of the Tory ranks so ranks would back May. Not sure anyone would beat her in a leadership battle anyway, the hard Brexiteers won't get the votes and Johnson's stock has fallen of late, too marmite anyway. Those that say a Brexiteer should be PM are blinkered, being PM includes Brexit but it's only a small part of what a PM needs to do in their role.

Could be May until the next GE which doesn't need to be called until 2022.

She may be rubbish in front of a camera but she's dogged and thick skinned. Wonder if she enjoys her job?:fore:
		
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I think she is hating it - but is doing it because she feels a duty to do something that nobody else had the cojones do do...including all the lead Leavers who disappeared like snow off a dyke.  She is sticking with it because she knows the impact of a No Deal outcome, and so a Deal is essential, and recognises she must get some form of Deal she can sell to the electorate - to try and placate the rising fury of Leave voters who feel they are being 'betrayed' (in fact some suggest they were duped - but she can't say that - yet).

I thought she looked like the best of a bad bunch - thought there was some Christian Democrat in her, and so was willing to give her some time - and even felt some sympathy for her predicament.  But as various scandals, weaknesses, pandering to anti-EU ideologues, and love of prevarication have continued - much of the sympathy I had has gone.

But she is still, most probably, the best of an - at best - not very good bunch.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think she is hating it - but is doing it because she feels a duty to do something that nobody else had the cojones do do...including all the lead Leavers who disappeared like snow off a dyke.  She is sticking with it because she knows the impact of a No Deal outcome, and so a Deal is essential, and recognises she must get some form of Deal she can sell to the electorate - to try and placate the rising fury of Leave voters who feel they are being 'betrayed' (in fact some suggest they were duped - but she can't say that - yet).

I thought she looked like the best of a bad bunch - thought there was some Christian Democrat in her, and so was willing to give her some time - and even felt some sympathy for her predicament.  But as various scandals, weaknesses, pandering to anti-EU ideologues, and love of prevarication have continued - much of the sympathy I had has gone.

But she is still, most probably, the best of an - at best - not very good bunch.
		
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Thats almost praise

Are you feeling alright?


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## Griffsters (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			OK  - GDP growth.....  a numerical rise or fall  in GDP in Lithuania represents much larger percentage change than similar in Germany, France or the UK.  

See where this is going?  

Click to expand...

The same place as quoting trade deficits as a percentage of respective economies i'd guess.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league


According to The Guardian we are.
		
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Whilst Doonâ€™s figures may be correct they were taken from The Guardian over THIRTEEN monthsâ€™ ago!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 11, 2018)

3offTheTee said:



			Whilst Doonâ€™s figures may be correct they were taken from The Guardian over THIRTEEN monthsâ€™ ago!
		
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At a time when the European Central Bank was injecting billions of Euros into the economy in the form of quantitative easing and had been doing so for a considerable period of time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thats almost praise

Are you feeling alright?
		
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It is - almost.  Well in a way it actually is - if for nothing else for her resolve and standing up to the anti-EU ideologues and fanatics in her party.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			At a time when the European Central Bank was injecting billions of Euros into the economy in the form of quantitative easing and had been doing so for a considerable period of time.
		
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They had to that as they willfully allowed several countries into the Single Currency even though they were nowhere near meeting the fiscal limits required.  But of course, that makes them exiting the EU even more difficult than us!  Hence it was done.... the damage to those countries is considerable!


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2018)

Dibby said:



			That's GDP growth, not GDP.

Would you rather increase your 300 yard drive by 10%, or your 200 yard drive by 20%?
		
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Good luck. I explained it 2 years ago but someone conveniently forgot it.


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## Mudball (Jul 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			No Deal!  I guess that means Brexit then.   In our referendum we were asked if we wanted to leave the EU or not, we decided we wanted to leave, since that time words like  'Cliff Edge' 'Crashing out'    have been created to scare people. No one asked us if we wanted a 'Deal'  I guess it would be in the interests of the EU for us to agree a trade deal with them as they want us to accept most of the constraints that are shackled to the other EU countries, no one else they have agreed trade deals with need to agree things like freedom of anyone in the EU to come and live in their countries  or the superiority of the ECJ over their own courts but seems like we would need to.   I honestly believe a quick withdraw from the EU would be the best thing for us, we could then get on with designing our own direction.   If the EU would like to continue access to our markets then they would need to start asking us nicely.  All the talk from big business has been IMO gerrymongered by some of our own government, just like Cameron did with Obama.   The Irish border is as much a project for the EU to solve as us, I believe if we were left to sort it then it would be no big problem.
		
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We are asking for the Divorce, the EU is not.  So EU is expecting us to provide a solution as we asked the question.  We are saying that we should keep the house, the alimony but not the children or any other commitments. Oh btw, we will be seeing other people. and one more thing, we will need access to your house and  garden when we want to party or go fishing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

3offTheTee said:



			Whilst Doonâ€™s figures may be correct they were taken from The Guardian over THIRTEEN monthsâ€™ ago!
		
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Do you want to post up the most recent yearly ones then ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Good luck. I explained it 2 years ago but someone conveniently forgot it.
		
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So that would be this years 300 yard drive compared to last years 330 yard drive and the 200 yard drive compared to last years 180 yard drive.
Got it:lol:


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you want to post up the most recent yearly ones then ?
		
Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			So that would be this years 300 yard drive compared to last years 330 yard drive and the 200 yard drive compared to last years 180 yard drive.
Got it:lol:
		
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I love the way you try to deflect when youâ€™re shown to be clueless, as usual.


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## User62651 (Jul 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I love the way you try to deflect when youâ€™re shown to be clueless, as usual.
		
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You love it because it makes you feel superior? Or because you can belittle someone else?


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			You love it because it makes you feel superior? Or because you can belittle someone else?

Click to expand...

Neither, but thanks for asking:thup:


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2018)

Mudball said:



			We are asking for the Divorce, the EU is not.  So EU is expecting us to provide a solution as we asked the question.  We are saying that we should keep the house, the alimony but not the children or any other commitments. Oh btw, we will be seeing other people. and one more thing, we will need access to your house and  garden when we want to party or go fishing.
		
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Did you bother to read my post before commenting on it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you bother to read my post before commenting on it?
		
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In the run-up to the referendum I do not recall many (or ANY) suggesting that a _No Deal _was a good thing - in fact the best thing - that just crashing out of the EU with No Deal and no transition would be a 'good thing' - yet that is something revisionists are now pretending to be the case.  

We did not vote for a No Deal.  You just cannot now choose to decide what was and was not on the ballot paper - and so you cannot tell us that since the requirement for a Deal was not on the voting paper then No Deal and No Transition is a perfectly valid deduction from the vote.  It is not.  And if you continue to argue that it _is_, then nowhere on the paper did it say No Single Market or No Customs Union.  You can't have it both ways.  Cake and Eat it revisionism in full swing.


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the run-up to the referendum I do not recall many (or ANY) suggesting that a _No Deal _was a good thing - in fact the best thing - that just crashing out of the EU with No Deal and no transition would be a 'good thing' - yet that is something revisionists are now pretending to be the case.  

We did not vote for a No Deal.  You just cannot now choose to decide what was and was not on the ballot paper - and so you cannot tell us that since the requirement for a Deal was not on the voting paper then No Deal and No Transition is a perfectly valid deduction from the vote.  It is not.  And if you continue to argue that it _is_, then nowhere on the paper did it say No Single Market or No Customs Union.  You can't have it both ways.  Cake and Eat it revisionism in full swing.
		
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I think the vast majority expected to walk away and then strike the deals. It was a simple in/out, and thatâ€™s what Cameron et al sold it as. Everyone and their dog understood the vote, in or out. Not out with a lot of in. And itâ€™s not for you to choose deal/no deal either based on what was or wasnâ€™t on the ballot paper. 

Revisionists pretending; do you see monsters under the bed too? Where on earth are you dredging this rubbish from?

As for using emotive language like â€œcrashing out, or cliff edge.â€ Oh for Godâ€™s sake get real. The wheels wonâ€™t grind to a shuddering halt on Brexit day, and itâ€™s not in the best interests for either side to allow that. You might believe Armageddon is hurtling towards us but the reality wonâ€™t be anything remotely close to that. Trading issues, yes but both sides will look to mitigate those. Armageddon, donâ€™t be silly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think the vast majority expected to walk away and then strike the deals. It was a simple in/out, and thatâ€™s what Cameron et al sold it as. Everyone and their dog understood the vote, in or out. Not out with a lot of in. And itâ€™s not for you to choose deal/no deal either based on what was or wasnâ€™t on the ballot paper. 

Revisionists pretending; do you see monsters under the bed too? Where on earth are you dredging this rubbish from?

As for using emotive language like â€œcrashing out, or cliff edge.â€ Oh for Godâ€™s sake get real. The wheels wonâ€™t grind to a shuddering halt on Brexit day, and itâ€™s not in the best interests for either side to allow that. You might believe Armageddon is hurtling towards us but the reality wonâ€™t be anything remotely close to that. Trading issues, yes but both sides will look to mitigate those. Armageddon, donâ€™t be silly.
		
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No they didn't - they absolutely didn't - they understood very different things abut what leaving the EU and what would be required to meet their expectations of life after leaving the EU.  

_'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' _covers leaving and re-engaging.  In that sense they are not separate processes.  So we cannot leave the EU and then start working out how we might re-engage.  Many might have thought that - but I suggest that they misunderstood or were misinformed.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So we cannot leave the EU and then start working out how we might re-engage.
		
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Of course we can. If we leave with no deal in place we will have left the EU and can then look at how we'd want to re-engage and how/if they'd want to re-engage with us. I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea but it is a possibility.


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No they didn't - they absolutely didn't - they understood very different things abut what leaving the EU and what would be required to meet their expectations of life after leaving the EU.  

_'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' _covers leaving and re-engaging.  In that sense they are not separate processes.  So we cannot leave the EU and then start working out how we might re-engage.  Many might have thought that - but I suggest that they misunderstood or were misinformed.
		
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carry on believing what youâ€™ve brain washed yourself to believe but it is still rollax, and Iâ€™d suggest that the number of people saying the opposite to you on here clearly indicates that you have your â€˜factsâ€™ and they have theirs.


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## IanM (Jul 12, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course we can. If we leave with no deal in place we will have left the EU and can then look at how we'd want to re-engage and how/if they'd want to re-engage with us. I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea but it is a possibility.
		
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Right ho Fritz... how many Beamers do you want to sell in the UK then?  And remember, you stick big tarriffs on our stuff, we'll do the same on yours!  Ad you sell more here than we do to you, so lets meet in the middle then!  

Jesus!  IT IS THAT EASY!!


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## Mudball (Jul 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			Right ho Fritz... how many Beamers do you want to sell in the UK then?  And remember, you stick big tarriffs on our stuff, we'll do the same on yours!  Ad you sell more here than we do to you, so lets meet in the middle then!  

Jesus!  IT IS THAT EASY!!
		
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Sure. They want to see BMW, Mercedes, Fiat etc to us. But will we be able to buy it. I know no one wants to hear that London is the centre of the Univ esp the Financial Sector.. no one like Banks, Insurance etc. But these feed the rest of the country. The sums may look obsene and undeserving but it does trickle down. Services make 80% of the UK economy. While there is an apathy for banks (and other professional services like IT, Consulting etc),  they depend on the EU. Also these services can be fairly mobile as compared to manufacturing, farming or retail shops. Without a valid passporting system which the â€˜compromise planâ€™ does not cater for. Cities in France, Germany are queuing up to pick this up. 
To stay with the trickle down theory, when the banking job goes so does the demand for Soya Latte as well as the tradesman that needed for digging that basement and the pharmacy manager and the BMW garage manager
The Brexit vote and the plans should not be seen as a revenge by the North against those pesky Latte sipping Londoners who have everything. We seem to be determined to drive equality but to the lowest denominator.. 
Like it or lump it, the financial sector pays a lot of mortgages across the country as well as fund the NHS..

PS.. how many beamers are they keen to sell to a â€˜not so well off countryâ€™.. letâ€™s say Uganda (other countries are available)

Edit>> very timely Brexit services plan will speed up relocation, says Lloyd's boss http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44805565

But as a wise man once said â€˜F*** Businessâ€™ .. atleast he has his inheritance and trust in place. He assumes the rest also do..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Sure. They want to see BMW, Mercedes, Fiat etc to us. But will we be able to buy it. I know no one wants to hear that London is the centre of the Univ esp the Financial Sector.. no one like Banks, Insurance etc. But these feed the rest of the country. The sums may look obsene and undeserving but it does trickle down. Services make 80% of the UK economy. While there is an apathy for banks (and other professional services like IT, Consulting etc),  they depend on the EU. Also these services can be fairly mobile as compared to manufacturing, farming or retail shops. Without a valid passporting system which the â€˜compromise planâ€™ does not cater for. Cities in France, Germany are queuing up to pick this up. 
To stay with the trickle down theory, when the banking job goes so does the demand for Soya Latte as well as the tradesman that needed for digging that basement and the pharmacy manager and the BMW garage manager
The Brexit vote and the plans should not be seen as a revenge by the North against those pesky Latte sipping Londoners who have everything. We seem to be determined to drive equality but to the lowest denominator.. 
Like it or lump it, the financial sector pays a lot of mortgages across the country as well as fund the NHS..

PS.. how many beamers are they keen to sell to a â€˜not so well off countryâ€™.. letâ€™s say Uganda (other countries are available)

E*dit>> very timely Brexit services plan will speed up relocation, says Lloyd's boss http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44805565*

But as a wise man once said â€˜F*** Businessâ€™ .. atleast he has his inheritance and trust in place. He assumes the rest also do..
		
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Waste of time pointing our reality as it will just be dismissed as yet another example of Project Fear - business looking after itself and not considering the vote - they said it would all go ts up etc etc.  Though the new description of this sort of news is that it is blackmail - along the lines of - dear government - we'll relocate if the White Paper plan for services is enacted.  Blackmail?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business


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## Twire (Jul 13, 2018)

Back on track please  we all ready have a Brexit thread.


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## bluewolf (Jul 13, 2018)

I see that Rup, I mean Donald has really stuck the knife in today. 

I think that even the most fervent supporters can finally start to see the puppet masters hands at work now....... &#128521;


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## Mudball (Jul 13, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I see that Rup, I mean Donald has really stuck the knife in today. 

I think that even the most fervent supporters can finally start to see the puppet masters hands at work now....... &#128521;
		
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Now that the Orange one has said that she is not fit for purpose while BoJo is... can we all agree that she is very good.. how dare he..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2018)

Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...

Mind you Mrs Trump - who does think _she _is - Cinderella going to the Ball?  Fabulous figure but sometimes her attire is wow over the top


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...

Mind you Mrs Trump - who does think _she _is - Cinderella going to the Ball?  Fabulous figure but sometimes her attire is wow over the top 

Click to expand...

Mrs Trump is the wife of an American billionaire president. She knows exactly who she is. For many people outside of the UK, certainly Americans and Eastern Europeans, an event like last night with all the pomp involved is like going to Cinderella's Ball. 

Come on, keep the chat to politics.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...

Mind you Mrs Trump - who does think _she _is - Cinderella going to the Ball?  Fabulous figure but sometimes her attire is wow over the top 

Click to expand...

For a supposed Christian your hugely disparaging, judgemental postings are terribly disappointing. 

â€œAnd with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.â€ Or the modern version, â€œfor with whatever judgement you judge you will be judged, and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.â€

If you want to be judged a Christian, I would suggest you need to recalibrate your view of the world and how people live in it together.


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## PieMan (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...
		
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I take it that you would look better in it then?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...

Mind you Mrs Trump - who does think _she _is - Cinderella going to the Ball?  Fabulous figure but sometimes her attire is wow over the top 

Click to expand...

Your hatred knows no bounds.  Re-read your post and contemplate what this is doing to you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			For a supposed Christian your hugely disparaging, judgemental postings are terribly disappointing. 

â€œAnd with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.â€ Or the modern version, â€œfor with whatever judgement you judge you will be judged, and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.â€

If you want to be judged a Christian, I would suggest you need to recalibrate your view of the world and how people live in it together.
		
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I am reflecting the opinions of others who seem to know of such things - personally I haven't a clue whether it worked or not and quite frankly don't care.  But some people clearly do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Your hatred knows no bounds.  Re-read your post and contemplate what this is doing to you.
		
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Oh for goodness sake...you really, really don't have to attack me personally on everything I say.  

But if fact you are correct, my hatred has no bounds as it does not exist - I have no hatred for anyone or anything - hated is a pernicious, poisonous and destructive emotion and not one that have any time for whatsoever.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh for goodness sake...you really, really don't have to attack me personally on everything I say.  

But if fact you are correct, my hatred has no bounds as it does not exist - I have no hatred for anyone or anything - hated is a pernicious, poisonous and destructive emotion and not one that have any time for whatsoever.
		
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Another "christian" do as I say not as I do.
What they are wearing has no bearing on them or their position. The fact you choose to comment on it on a public forum says oodles.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 13, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Another "christian" do as I say not as I do.
What they are wearing has no bearing on them or their position. The fact you choose to comment on it on a public forum says oodles.
		
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SILH. You are not going to win this one. Apologise and move on.

BTW. a great Tennis match on now!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 13, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Another "christian" do as I say not as I do.
What they are wearing has no bearing on them or their position. The fact you choose to comment on it on a public forum says oodles.
		
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So.â€¦â€¦â€¦...if PM turns up at the dispatch box dressed as 'Rocker Sandie' from Grease, you would be cool with that.



or 


God forbid, a male MP fails to wear a TIE.

I learned years ago never to comment on woman's apparel. :lol:


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am reflecting the opinions of others who seem to know of such things - personally I haven't a clue whether it worked or not and quite frankly don't care.  But some people clearly do.
		
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What a load of rubbish. You know exactly why you post up the negatives, and quite frankly you do need help. Itâ€™s become a very unhealthy obsession in the last couple of years.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 13, 2018)

3offTheTee said:



			SILH. You are not going to win this one. Apologise and move on.

BTW. a great Tennis match on now!
		
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Verily on both counts...


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## NWJocko (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am reflecting the opinions of others who seem to know of such things - personally I haven't a clue whether it worked or not and quite frankly don't care.  But some people clearly do.
		
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Im interested to know in what way you directly commentating on what the PM and First Lady were wearing is "reflecting opinions of others" ?

Equally as interested to know that whatever size slit her dress had on the back had to do with whether she is up to the job or not (given that's the question you pose in this thread)? 

I know that is your usual get out of jail phrase but doesn't seem to fit here


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## MegaSteve (Jul 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I learned years ago never to comment on woman's apparel. :lol:
		
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Exactly... If you've nothing positive to say you just smile and keep schtum...


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## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am reflecting the opinions of others who seem to know of such things - personally I haven't a clue whether it worked or not and quite frankly don't care.  But some people clearly do.
		
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Once again its the "not I guv" defence, someone else said and I'm just posting other people's views.

Insults and runs away.


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## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2018)

Trump does a complete about turn on his Sun interview. HM obviously threatened to turn the corgis on him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

In PMQ May continues to spout now meaningless slogans - more like Brexit means Brexit means Breakfast means a Dogs Dinner.  How can she be seriously listened to when she is asked by a staunch Leave supporter whether now Brexit means Remain, and she replies with BmB.


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## NWJocko (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In PMQ May continues to spout now meaningless slogans - more like Brexit means Brexit means Breakfast means a Dogs Dinner.  How can she be seriously listened to when she is asked by a staunch Leave supporter whether now Brexit means Remain, and she replies with BmB.
		
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More importantly did you approve of what she was wearing today?


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - that dress last night...that slit up the back of it...

Mind you Mrs Trump - who does think _she _is - Cinderella going to the Ball?  Fabulous figure but sometimes her attire is wow over the top 

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am reflecting the opinions of others who seem to know of such things - personally I haven't a clue whether it worked or not and quite frankly don't care. But some people clearly do.
		
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Ephesians 4:29; "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen".

Exodus 23:1; "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness."

James 1:26; "Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless".


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## Captainron (Jul 18, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Ephesians 4:29; "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen".

Exodus 23:1; "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness."

James 1:26; "Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless".
		
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Is this from that mega long fairy tale book?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

Captainron said:



			Is this from that mega long fairy tale book?
		
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You can _prove_ it's a fairy tale then?


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## bobmac (Jul 19, 2018)

So all 66 books are true then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

NWJocko said:



			More importantly did you approve of what she was wearing today?
		
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I get the impression that the Prime Minister does not give a fig about what anyone things of her dress sense (though my Mrs tells me that Mr May advises on her clothing). If she likes it she is happy and everyone else can go hang. 

And if there is anything at all to be drawn from this that it is just maybe this is a reflection on Mrs May's thinking - she decides what she wants and then that is it.  How much she listens to those around (her other than her husband) might suggest why she is where she is with her Proposed Deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So all 66 books are true then?
		
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Who said they were all 'true'...so do I believe the words of Genesis literally.  No.

In my denomination we are not biblical literalists.  The Old Testament is interpreted through the teachings of the New Testament in the context of today.


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## bobmac (Jul 19, 2018)

So talk me through Exodus 21


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So talk me through Exodus 21
		
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No.  For someone who has no belief in a book of 66 books you display a keen interest in it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2018)

Tories do what Tories do, but it is just not cricket old boy.

Hope The PM has the 'you know whats' to sack him, doubt it though.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44886069


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## bobmac (Jul 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.  For someone who has no belief in a book of 66 books you display a keen interest in it.
		
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I didn't say I didn't believe it, I said I have insufficient proof to convince me it's true.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 19, 2018)

can we get off religion please, start a new thread if you must, but this thread is about Theresa May and her suitability (or not) in the role of Prime Minister.

TY


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## bluewolf (Jul 19, 2018)

Quite amusing that people are once again mocking Hogie's faith whilst still expecting us to have the same faith in a process that they support. 

*Tongue firmly in cheek &#128521;


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Quite amusing that people are once again mocking Hogie's faith whilst still expecting us to have the same faith in a process that they support. 

*Tongue firmly in cheek &#62985;
		
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What process do you support?


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			What process do you support?
		
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Full of questions recently aren't you sweety?

Ok, I'm in full support of the process of removing internet privileges from any individual who doesn't know the difference between "of" and "have". We're a niche party but we just want to make the World a better place.


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

In other news. I'm really interested to see how May handles the current vote issue. The Chief Whip telling MP's to ignore vote pairing agreements and vote anyway says quite a lot about the current state of Politics in this country. How we react to it says quite a lot about us.


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## Hobbit (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			In other news. I'm really interested to see how May handles the current vote issue. The Chief Whip telling MP's to ignore vote pairing agreements and vote anyway says quite a lot about the current state of Politics in this country. How we react to it says quite a lot about us.
		
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I hope she sacks him. If she is to protect the integrity of Parliament she has no choice.

But donâ€™t hold your breath.


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I hope she sacks him. If she is to protect the integrity of Parliament she has no choice.

But donâ€™t hold your breath.
		
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I agree. The position he has put her in makes his position untenable. Unfortunately, she can't afford to keep losing top people. The Government is at war with itself!


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## Dibby (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I hope she sacks him. If she is to protect the integrity of Parliament she has no choice.

But donâ€™t hold your breath.
		
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It might not be that easy, the ultimate question is whether the whip acted independently or under her instruction?

If under her instruction, sacking brings a problem, because the whips career being ruined by following her orders will mean that he is likely to spill the beans and bring her down with him, and yet not sacking makes her appear to be complicit and have no control of things. Rock and a hard place.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			can we get off religion please, start a new thread if you must, but this thread is about Theresa May and her suitability (or not) in the role of Prime Minister.

TY
		
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OK - I think May is trying - but IMO rather failing - to follow her christian democrat instinct as her Tory Party loyalties, and mistrust - even dislike - of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, swamp everything.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Quite amusing that people are once again mocking Hogie's faith whilst still expecting us to have the same faith in a process that they support. 

*Tongue firmly in cheek &#128521;
		
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I could possibly comment - but I shall refrain from doing so...


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## Hobbit (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Quite amusing that people are once again mocking Hogie's faith whilst still expecting us to have the same faith in a process that they support. 

*Tongue firmly in cheek ï˜‰
		
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Are they mocking it or are they asking the same thing as Hogan asks of May, on a regular basis. How does she/he reconcile her/his faith with the earthly realities of politics?

In the uncompromising world of political expediency I donâ€™t think itâ€™s possible. Iâ€™d love to say it is but as weâ€™ve seen with the pairing issue, it isnâ€™t.


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Are they mocking it or are they asking the same thing as Hogan asks of May, on a regular basis. How does she/he reconcile her/his faith with the earthly realities of politics?

In the uncompromising world of political expediency I donâ€™t think itâ€™s possible. Iâ€™d love to say it is but as weâ€™ve seen with the pairing issue, it isnâ€™t.
		
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But Hogies politics do appear to be generally aligned with his faith. I think that he questions others who profess Faith but don't appear to follow specific teachings.


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## Hobbit (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But Hogies politics do appear to be generally aligned with his faith. I think that he questions others who profess Faith but don't appear to follow specific teachings.
		
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I guess itâ€™s down to interpretation. I find Hoganâ€™s opinions do run counter to his faith, or maybe thatâ€™s his failing, by being so judgemental. Whether itâ€™s dress sense, or intellect, split up the back or stupid choices by those that voted a particular way it neither accepts nor tolerates the differences.

I donâ€™t agree with Leave but accept its a political/lifestyle choice. I donâ€™t think it will be successful but accept it might work out ok.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Are they mocking it or are they asking the same thing as Hogan asks of May, on a regular basis. How does she/he reconcile her/his faith with the earthly realities of politics?

In the uncompromising world of political expediency I donâ€™t think itâ€™s possible. Iâ€™d love to say it is but as weâ€™ve seen with the pairing issue, it isnâ€™t.
		
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I believe that May instinctively knows the right thing to do in most matters political - her problem is reconciling that with her political will and that which the Tory party wants her do.  And I believe that it could be this personal conflict that is at the root of her prevarications and uncertainty - as manifest through her actions, inactions and words - as political will overrules her personal inclinations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I guess itâ€™s down to interpretation. I find Hoganâ€™s opinions do run counter to his faith, or maybe thatâ€™s his failing, by being so judgemental. Whether itâ€™s dress sense, or intellect, split up the back or stupid choices by those that voted a particular way it neither accepts nor tolerates the differences.

I donâ€™t agree with Leave but accept its a political/lifestyle choice. I donâ€™t think it will be successful but accept it might work out ok.
		
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We can all be judgemental from time-to-time - I don't know why someone with a faith should be expected to be otherwise - and so I will continue to be so especially on those matters or individuals that I think are damaging to others.  My post in respect of the PMs dress sense was a throw-away - I did not expect it to be taken at all seriously - nothing else I say is


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## Mudball (Jul 23, 2018)

So dear PM, given that you have a very stressful job.. how do you unwind.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44928738/theresa-may-i-like-ncis-cooking-and-walking 

<provide uncomfortable Maybot laugh as question is off script> 
1) I like to go for walks <Maybot laugh>
2) I like to cook, so i have over 150 cookbooks  
3) I like to watch NCIS.. where nothing happens  <more uncomfy Maybot laugh>  

So we are going to combine all my hobbies..   We will walk out of the EU, my recipe called Chequers Compromise and is unpalatable to anyone but nothing will happen in the end...  everyone will be happy and we will find a magic money tree.

It cringe worthy to see her struggle thru any off script question.  Surely someone who ran thru fields as her main entertainment is more human than this..


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I did not expect it to be taken at all seriously - nothing else I say is 

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A sad admission - and state!

In fact, I find it extremely distasteful that his faith is criticised! That has nothing to do with this discussion as far as i'm concerned! 

Remember to 'play the argument, not the man!'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			A sad admission - and state!
		
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Just how it is.  Though I am impervious to the slagging off and snide comments made in response to what I post.  It is just a pity.

Anyway - let's see how she gets on selling her deal around the country...not quite the statement I think she will be having to make at some point to explain why No Deal will be a catastrophic disaster (concatenating what Major and Blair think of a No Deal).   But I think that it will come to that.


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## bobmac (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Remember to 'play the argument, not the man!'!

Click to expand...

:rofl:


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
Anyway - let's see how she gets on selling her deal around the country...not quite the statement I think she will be having to make at some point to explain why No Deal will be a catastrophic disaster (concatenating what Major and Blair think of a No Deal).   But I think that it will come to that.
		
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I don't think she has ever been a particularly good 'Salesperson'! At least, not to the general public, nor made the correct decisions when 'appealing' to courts on contentious issues! Many of her decisions to pursue flawed legal process as Home Secretary were entire predictable - and the sensible decision would have been to implement, significantly earlier, the eventual outcome, saving a great deal of both time and money!

It is becoming something of a considerable shambles - and it's actually down to her! And the country can't afford to actually get this wrong! There are companies going bust (though there will always be companies that go bust) because of either the uncertainty of what will happen or because imports are already significantly more expensive than they were before the referendum! That and the uncertainty will almost certainly have a significant effect on GDP! And there is still apparently little progress on (one of) the largest contributors to UK economy - the Financial Markets area! That's an area that needs to be addressed/agreed pronto!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I don't think she has ever been a particularly good 'Salesperson'! At least, not to the general public, nor made the correct decisions when 'appealing' to courts on contentious issues! Many of her decisions to pursue flawed legal process as Home Secretary were entire predictable - and the sensible decision would have been to implement, significantly earlier, the eventual outcome, saving a great deal of both time and money!

It is becoming something of a considerable shambles - and it's actually down to her! And the country can't afford to actually get this wrong! *There are companies going bust (though there will always be companies that go bust) because of either the uncertainty of what will happen or because imports are already significantly more expensive than they were before the referendum!* That and the uncertainty will almost certainly have a significant effect on GDP! And there is still apparently little progress on (one of) the largest contributors to UK economy - the Financial Markets area! That's an area that needs to be addressed/agreed pronto!
		
Click to expand...

Please can you show some evidence to back this claim especially as employment is at record highs and so many hundreds of thousands of people are still coming to the UK to live from abroad each year.


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## hors limite (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please can you show some evidence to back this claim especially as employment is at record highs and so many hundreds of thousands of people are still coming to the UK to live from abroad each year.
		
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You want evidence.
I am sorry but this just takes the biscuit. On the Brexit thread you were recently asked to explain and as usual you responded with assertions about how confident you are with nothing at all to back up that confidence. Have a go at providing answers to these points.
I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of  enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.


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## Mudball (Jul 24, 2018)

hors limite said:



			You want evidence.
I am sorry but this just takes the biscuit. On the Brexit thread you were recently asked to explain and as usual you responded with assertions about how confident you are with nothing at all to back up that confidence. Have a go at providing answers to these points.
I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of  enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.
		
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We have far too many experts on this thread..  please stick to made up assertions of how we can be Great again.  Remember the empire - we could do all sorts of things without having to worry about those pesky Europeans who now out compete us.  Surely a market of 60m people is more attractive than that of 200m especially since the golden goose of Financial Services (which does most of the work outside the UK) will be served on a platter to other cities.   

Getting back on the thread, TM would do a fantastic job as a tight rope walker. I love the idea that they wanted to take an early summer break just at a time when the biggest challenge the country is facing was being discussed.   

Also, how much does the country/tories fear Labour/Corbyn if they have to hold on to TM just to ensure that Labour does not get in?  We are walking in the shoes of our American cousins who whipped up enough frenzy against Hillary to ensure that Trump won.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

hors limite said:



			You want evidence.
I am sorry but this just takes the biscuit. On the Brexit thread you were recently asked to explain and as usual you responded with assertions about how confident you are with nothing at all to back up that confidence. Have a go at providing answers to these points.
I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of  enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.
		
Click to expand...

A 5 minute search: lamb imported into the EU is subject to a 12.80% tariff + â‚¬176.00 per 100kg. A saving of Â£2.00-ish for your Sunday roast. Then there's the 15% on the wine from outside the EU, 75p on a Â£5 bottle. And the Â£500 (2.5%) on a Â£20000 car from outside the EU which you've just used to drive you home from the golf club for your Sunday lunch. There's a very good EU market access database on tariffs applied to non-EU countries.

Future investment. Ireland's reduction in Corporation Tax to very low levels, much to the EU's annoyance, has seen plenty of investment from non-EU countries. Ireland has suffered some very high profile court cases in recent years with the EU as it looks to make life difficult on low taxation. The EU is very concerned about the UK becoming a low taxation, Singapore-type, trading nation right on their doorstep. There might be higher tariffs from the UK into the EU but balanced, or bettered, by very low Corp Tax will make the UK extremely attractive to foreign investment.

However, as France continues to chase financial services business from London I expect the City will take a hit as the regs and financial passporting will be a sticking point. Equally, because of the performance of many UK blue chip companies there's significant investment by both France and Germany in UK pension companies. Add to that most of the UK water companies are French owned, the EU Commission will be pushed by the EU27 for a deal.

There's lots of posturing going on at present but there will be deals in a number of areas. It won't happen overnight, and will take all of the transition period, and then some, but it will happen. It will hurt the EU too much not to.


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please can you show some evidence to back this claim especially as employment is at record highs and so many hundreds of thousands of people are still coming to the UK to live from abroad each year.
		
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Toys-R-Us; Poundworld; Maplin.


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## chrisd (Jul 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Toys-R-Us; Poundworld; Maplin.
		
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I may be wrong but I understood that Maplins and Toys-R-Us went bust because they were too expensive and lost business to cheaper suppliers as well as internet shoppers and Poundworld lost money by fraud abroad and the inability to increase their price of Â£1 when goods costs to them have been increasing, as its difficult to become OnePoundtwentyfiveworld


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I may be wrong but I understood that Maplins and Toys-R-Us went bust because they were too expensive and lost business to cheaper suppliers as well as internet shoppers and Poundworld lost money by fraud abroad and the inability to increase their price of Â£1 when goods costs to them have been increasing, as its difficult to become OnePoundtwentyfiveworld
		
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Pretty certain you missed half a doz exclamation marks in that!!!!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2018)

chrisd said:



			as its difficult to become OnePoundtwentyfiveworld
		
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I think that is one of the best lines I have seen for some time


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A 5 minute search: lamb imported into the EU is subject to a 12.80% tariff + â‚¬176.00 per 100kg. A saving of Â£2.00-ish for your Sunday roast. Then there's the 15% on the wine from outside the EU, 75p on a Â£5 bottle. And the Â£500 (2.5%) on a Â£20000 car from outside the EU which you've just used to drive you home from the golf club for your Sunday lunch. There's a very good EU market access database on tariffs applied to non-EU countries.

Future investment. Ireland's reduction in Corporation Tax to very low levels, much to the EU's annoyance, has seen plenty of investment from non-EU countries. Ireland has suffered some very high profile court cases in recent years with the EU as it looks to make life difficult on low taxation. The EU is very concerned about the UK becoming a low taxation, Singapore-type, trading nation right on their doorstep. There might be higher tariffs from the UK into the EU but balanced, or bettered, by very low Corp Tax will make the UK extremely attractive to foreign investment.

However, as France continues to chase financial services business from London I expect the City will take a hit as the regs and financial passporting will be a sticking point. Equally, because of the performance of many UK blue chip companies there's significant investment by both France and Germany in UK pension companies. Add to that most of the UK water companies are French owned, the EU Commission will be pushed by the EU27 for a deal.

There's lots of posturing going on at present but there will be deals in a number of areas. It won't happen overnight, and will take all of the transition period, and then some, but it will happen. It will hurt the EU too much not to.
		
Click to expand...

A very good post and so good to 
see some people have a bit of balance and optimism.  The two previous are as bright as a wet weekend in Worthing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			A very good post and so good to 
see some people have a bit of balance and optimism.  The two previous are as bright as a wet weekend in Worthing.
		
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So do you think leaving with No Deal will be a good thing?


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I may be wrong but I understood that Maplins and Toys-R-Us went bust because they were too expensive and lost business to cheaper suppliers as well as internet shoppers and Poundworld lost money by fraud abroad and the inability to increase their price of Â£1 when *goods costs to them have been increasing*, as its difficult to become OnePoundtwentyfiveworld
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43223175

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44436435

Indeed, costs have increased - because of, as I stated, the fall in the value of the puond against other currencies!

Btw. The 2nd article also suggests other companies have needed to 'tighten their belts' to survive, one of the causes of which is increased costs due to the fall in the value of the Pound!

As far as I'm concerned, that answers Socket's quite valid question! Mind you, it's quite possible that his 'old' company could well be flourishing precisely because of the fall in the pound! UK-centric companies have become more competitively priced because of the reduced exchange rate!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So do you think leaving with No Deal will be a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

If you pop over to the Brexit thread you will see a post with my views on what I think will happen.  Don't really want to post it again. :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Toys-R-Us; Poundworld; Maplin.
		
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I dont believe these are very good examples of failing businesses due to Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

hors limite said:



			You want evidence.
I am sorry but this just takes the biscuit. On the Brexit thread you were recently asked to explain and as usual you responded with assertions about how confident you are with nothing at all to back up that confidence. Have a go at providing answers to these points.
I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of  enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.
		
Click to expand...




Mudball said:



			We have far too many experts on this thread..  please stick to made up assertions of how we can be Great again.  Remember the empire - we could do all sorts of things without having to worry about those pesky Europeans who now out compete us.  Surely a market of 60m people is more attractive than that of 200m especially since the golden goose of Financial Services (which does most of the work outside the UK) will be served on a platter to other cities.   

Getting back on the thread, TM would do a fantastic job as a tight rope walker. I love the idea that they wanted to take an early summer break just at a time when the biggest challenge the country is facing was being discussed.   

Also, how much does the country/tories fear Labour/Corbyn if they have to hold on to TM just to ensure that Labour does not get in?  We are walking in the shoes of our American cousins who whipped up enough frenzy against Hillary to ensure that Trump won.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be confused by the difference between an 'Opinion' and a 'Statement of facts'.  When I give an opinion on something it is exactly that, not a expert statement but the way I consider it. It's also nothing to do with the British Empire or the size of the EU market. I take it it's still OK to have personal opinions. It may be a surprise to some people but if we leave the EU we are still allowed to trade with them and the rest of the World which is a much bigger market and also one where we already do more trade (And that bit was a statement of facts)


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont believe these are very good examples of failing businesses due to Brexit.
		
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Oh how predictable!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Oh how predictable!
		
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I thought you just made a post about "playing the argument and not the man".


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought you just made a post about "playing the argument and not the man".
		
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That (the 'argument') was indeed what I was refering to as 'predictable'!


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## drdel (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So do you think leaving with No Deal will be a good thing?
		
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Yup. About 82% of GDP/ trade is  with countries outside of EU.  Quite a bit of that trade will be cheaper as it will be free from EU imposed duty under WTO. Do your sums and you'll see the UK can gain.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That (the 'argument') was indeed what I was refering to as 'predictable'!
		
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Please explain where I played the man?


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			Yup. About 82% of GDP/ trade is  with countries outside of EU.  Quite a bit of that trade will be cheaper as it will be free from EU imposed duty under WTO. Do your sums and you'll see the UK can gain.
		
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Where did that 82% value come from? This link https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ states that (in 2016) 54% came from EU, nothing like the 18% you suggest! Office for National Statistics indicates that imports from EU total more than those of rest of the world combined, so seems to agree! https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindu...ade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2018)

So our PM decides that she must take control of the negotiations - with Draab as her deputy...well I suppose if May gets a Deal then Draab will get some spin-off benefit...

Though who is running the country if May is doing the dealing?

BTW - yes I agree - Draab is about as funny as Bliar...


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

Current exports to the EU = 47% of all exports. However, according to the ONS it also includes a significant amount of exports that the end user is non-EU, and the products are shipped via a major hub like Rotterdam. 

TBH, if only 20% of the UK's exports went to the EU it is still a huge amount. But, perversely it almost a case of the more the merrier, up to a point.  Its a big enough number for which the EU will want a deal, whereas 10% would have been a number the EU might have said tough to.


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## chrisd (Jul 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, if only 20% of the UK's exports went to the EU it is still a huge amount. But, perversely it almost a case of the more the merrier, up to a point.  Its a big enough number for which the EU will want a deal, whereas 10% would have been a number the EU might have said tough to.
		
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Typical that the buffoons that we are negotiating with would risk plunging their remaining members businesses into potential ruin given how much trade some could lose.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Typical that the buffoons that we are negotiating with would risk plunging their remaining members businesses into potential ruin given how much trade some could lose.
		
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But if you tell some people on here they won't see it that way. And, of course, its all the UK's fault.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Oh how predictable!
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I thought you just made a post about "playing the argument and not the man".
		
Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			That (the 'argument') was indeed what I was refering to as 'predictable'!
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Please explain where I played the man?
		
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I'm still waiting for you to justify 1) your original statement 2) how the companies you used to defend it are correct and 3) How you could suggest my comments were predictable in attacking the man and not the argument.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm still waiting for you to justify 1) your original statement 2) how the companies you used to defend it are correct and 3) How you could suggest my comments were predictable in attacking the man and not the argument.
		
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Sort it out boys, handbags away
Itâ€™s clear that Foxy was referring to the answer being predictable, and he then clarified it.

We are a golf forum, nothing anyone posts on here is going to change what happens to The PM, Brexit or the price of a pint of milk.

Some people here take themselves way too seriously.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 25, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Oh how predictable!
		
Click to expand...

But they are not good examples.

Maplins and Poundworld had difficulties long before the Brexit vote and the fall in the value of sterling, whilst not helpful,  made little difference. 

As for Toys R Us,  their American parent company had already filed for bankruptcy before the UK operation shut down.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sort it out boys, handbags away
Itâ€™s clear that Foxy was referring to the answer being predictable, and he then clarified it.

We are a golf forum, nothing anyone posts on here is going to change what happens to The PM, Brexit or the price of a pint of milk.

Some people here take themselves way too seriously.
		
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I disagree he never clarified anything and accused me of attacking him and not the argument.  Why is this being singled out considering the other arguments going on here.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree he never clarified anything and accused me of attacking him and not the argument.  Why is this being singled out considering the other arguments going on here.
		
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In an ideal forum universe, all the petty arguments would cease, including this one


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2018)

Meanwhile in Mayland - we are supposed to be reassured that all will be OK because the government is stockpiling food and blood.

That's OK then - me reassured.  But what could possibly go wrong that makes this necessary...?


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## spongebob59 (Jul 26, 2018)

Some whoppers here :

https://order-order.com/2018/07/26/theresa-mays-promises-to-tory-members-then-and-now/


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile in Mayland - we are supposed to be reassured that all will be OK because the government is stockpiling food and blood.

That's OK then - me reassured.  But what could possibly go wrong that makes this necessary...?
		
Click to expand...

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they weren't doing it then people would complain that they were unprepared. Now they are doing it and you're still not happy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they weren't doing it then people would complain that they were unprepared. Now they are doing it and you're still not happy.
		
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But some tell us a _No Deal _is their preferred option - just cut and run - leave the EU tomorrow - we're *Great *Britain - we will sort it all out.   If No Deal is going to be so great then what's all this Project Fear stockpiling fear mongering nonsense about...

And by May in telling us about this that we should all be reassured - she has everything under control...what??


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But some tell us a _No Deal _is their preferred option - just cut and run - leave the EU tomorrow - we're *Great *Britain - we will sort it all out.   If No Deal is going to be so great then what's all this Project Fear stockpiling fear mongering nonsense about...

And by May in telling us about this that we should all be reassured - she has everything under control...what??
		
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Isn't May a staunch Remainer, with a vested interest in Project Fear? Isn't she the one responsible for the shambolic state of the UK negotiating team, including her behind the scenes of chopping Davis' legs off at every single opportunity? How on earth he didn't resign sooner is beyond me!

Don't forget, she wants a close a deal to not leaving as she can possibly get. If you can't see that...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't May a staunch Remainer, with a vested interest in Project Fear? Isn't she the one responsible for the shambolic state of the UK negotiating team, including her behind the scenes of chopping Davis' legs off at every single opportunity? How on earth he didn't resign sooner is beyond me!

Don't forget, she wants a close a deal to not leaving as she can possibly get. If you can't see that...
		
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I haven't a clue what she wants Bri...not a clue... but I can go along with your suggestion of her wanting a Brino.  

Pity the ERG won't entertain that.  In fact it's most probably not what the ERG will entertain - it's what JRM will entertain that matters - and I doubt that there is *any* deal will satisfy _him_.

And that is where we seem to be at.  The UK will leave the EU on terms that JRM dictates - maybe supported by Johnson and others.  But the way things sound today - we will leave on terms that satisfy the whims, wishes and obsessions of one ludicrous man with a posh voice.


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven't a clue what she wants Bri...not a clue... but I can go along with your suggestion of her wanting a Brino.  

Pity the ERG won't entertain that.  In fact it's most probably not what the ERG will entertain - it's what JRM will entertain that matters - and I doubt that there is *any* deal will satisfy _him_.

And that is where we seem to be at.  The UK will leave the EU on terms that JRM dictates - maybe supported by Johnson and others.  But the way things sound today - we will leave on terms that satisfy the whims, wishes and obsessions of one ludicrous man with a posh voice.
		
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There was a comment in the press, attributed to Raab, I think it was him, that 80% of the deal is already agreed. Quite whether or not that's in line with the white paper, or elements discussed previously, I don't know. Also, the Irish deputy Taoiseach seems to be suggesting a softening on the Irish border question so as not to see too serious an impact on their economy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There was a comment in the press, attributed to Raab, I think it was him, that 80% of the deal is already agreed. Quite whether or not that's in line with the white paper, or elements discussed previously, I don't know. Also, the Irish deputy Taoiseach seems to be suggesting a softening on the Irish border question so as not to see too serious an impact on their economy.
		
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Well all that sounds good and positive.  But having already sweated the easy stuff...

We'll almost certainly be worse  off - at least in the short to medium term (which could be up to 50yrs if you believe JRM) no matter what deal is struck...we have to be.  

And as we wait for the good times to arrive - and the companies start folding or relocating and jobs start going, and the cost of our food and everything else start going up and up; and the queues for housing, schooling, GP appointments; A&E etc remain long and immigration levels remain high and with no sign of reducing - there will be many disgruntled people wondering where the promised land has disappeared off to.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as we wait for the good times to arrive - and the companies start folding or relocating and jobs start going, and the cost of our food and everything else start going up and up; and the queues for housing, schooling, GP appointments; A&E etc remain long *and immigration levels remain high and with no sign of reducing* - there will be many disgruntled people wondering where the promised land has disappeared off to. 

Click to expand...

Just out of interest, why are all these immigrants still coming to the UK in your scenario? Companies are folding and jobs are going. Food costs and everything else is getting more expensive. There are long queues for housing, schooling, GP appointments. It doesn't sound like the sort of place an immigrant would want to come to if they can't get a job or a house and everything is massively expensive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just out of interest, why are all these immigrants still coming to the UK in your scenario? Companies are folding and jobs are going. Food costs and everything else is getting more expensive. There are long queues for housing, schooling, GP appointments. It doesn't sound like the sort of place an immigrant would want to come to if they can't get a job or a house and everything is massively expensive.
		
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For there to be a difference to the queues many non-UK nationals *have to leave the UK.*  And we know that we will be offering EU27 nationals right to remain - so the queues remain.

And newcomers? They will come as they come now - to keep the NHS and other public services going; as well as keeping our fruit and veg businesses and small retail outlets going...and as EU citizens are not the majority of immigrants to this country we'll be taking more from around the world as we strike new trade deals.  

The UK will continue to be attractive place to live for many.  I'd rather not be wishing for the UK to become so unattractive to overseas nationals that there is a huge drop in the numbers coming.  For that to happen we are either going to be in one very seriously mighty heck of a mess (possible) or very xenophobic.


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## Old Skier (Jul 27, 2018)

And another thread merges into the Darth Vader image of Brixit


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For there to be a difference to the queues many non-UK nationals *have to leave the UK.*  And we know that we will be offering EU27 nationals right to remain - so the queues remain.

And newcomers? They will come as they come now - to keep the NHS and other public services going; as well as keeping our fruit and veg businesses and small retail outlets going...and as EU citizens are not the majority of immigrants to this country we'll be taking more from around the world as we strike new trade deals.  

The UK will continue to be attractive place to live for many.  I'd rather not be wishing for the UK to become so unattractive to overseas nationals that there is a huge drop in the numbers coming.  For that to happen we are either going to be in one very seriously mighty heck of a mess (possible) or very xenophobic.
		
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Are they coming here to starve then. It must be pretty grim in their countries if they want to live in your projected post Brexit UK where there will be no jobs and as we rely on the EU for our food then how can there be jobs in the UK food industries.   

Now, just lay back and relax, look into my eyes, not around my eyes , you are feeling very sleepy. 321 you're under. Now what was it that triggered this blind hatred for your Nation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 18, 2018)

A recent poll of nearly 2000 voters in Scotland asked 'who will be the best PM for the UK right now'.
They were given four options.

Results 

May 1%
Corbyn 10%
Don't know 11%
A dead dog 78%


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A recent poll of nearly 2000 voters in Scotland asked 'who will be the best PM for the UK right now'.
They were given four options.

Results 

May 1%
Corbyn 10%
Don't know 11%
A dead dog 78%
		
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And the irony is that by voting for the SNP they increase the likelihood of Mrs May being PM.

Must be something in the water in Scotland.


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## User62651 (Aug 18, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			And the irony is that by voting for the SNP they increase the likelihood of Mrs May being PM.
		
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As do the Welsh voting Plaid albeit 4 MPs but in a close election not insignificant. Think you're missing the point - if SNP do really well May is most likely PM yes, but not in Scotland. 
Sturgeon is quiet presently, expect like the rest of us she is watching May's ineptitude v her rabid righters, Corbyn's unelectability, islamophobia, anti semitism etc etc help her cause.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 18, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			As do the Welsh voting Plaid albeit 4 MPs but in a close election not insignificant. Think you're missing the point - if SNP do really well May is most likely PM yes, but not in Scotland. 
Sturgeon is quiet presently, expect like the rest of us she is watching May's ineptitude v her rabid righters, Corbyn's unelectability, islamophobia, anti semitism etc etc help her cause.
		
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Rather than me missing the point l think you are overstating the likelihood of Sturgeon ever securing independence for Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 18, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			And the irony is that by voting for the SNP they increase the likelihood of Mrs May being PM.

Must be something in the water in Scotland.
		
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Under the present system that would be the best option for an Independent Scotland..â€¦.I see UKIP/far right support is rising again in England and Wales, the irony of that is not missed on your comment.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Under the present system that would be the best option for an Independent Scotland..â€¦.I see UKIP/far right support is rising again in England and Wales, the irony of that is not missed on your comment.

Click to expand...

What evidence is there to suggest a resurgence in support for UKIP?

And as for the "far right" that is so far off the mark to be almost laughable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 18, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			What evidence is there to suggest a resurgence in support for UKIP?

And as for the "far right" that is so far off the mark to be almost laughable.
		
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Just type in UKIP resurgence into Google, that will keep you up to date. 

Articles in Spectator/Guardian etc etc


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just type in UKIP resurgence into Google, that will keep you up to date. 

Articles in Spectator/Guardian etc etc
		
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Guardian.  Oh dear.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just type in UKIP resurgence into Google, that will keep you up to date. 

Articles in Spectator/Guardian etc etc
		
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As per usual you appear to have read the headlines and not  the body of the articles. 

In addition neither publication is renowned for its objectivity. To hint at a rise in support for UKIP suits their pro-remain agendas. 

And I still see nothing to suggest any significant support for far-right parties.


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## Old Skier (Aug 19, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			And I still see nothing to suggest any significant support for far-right parties.
		
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Its the far lefts way a group significantly larger than the far right nutters and have proven to be far more violent.

The countries far more likely to sleep walk in a Marxist state than a far right one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			As per usual you appear to have read the headlines and not  the body of the articles. 

In addition neither publication is renowned for its objectivity. To hint at a rise in support for UKIP suits their pro-remain agendas. 

And I still see nothing to suggest any significant support for far-right parties.
		
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My reading is fine whilst yours seems to have missed the polls that have UKIP support up to 8% and running level with the Lib Dems in England and Wales.  Probably due to a hard Brexit bounce.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 19, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My reading is fine whilst yours seems to have missed the polls that have UKIP support up to 8% and running level with the Lib Dems in England and Wales.  Probably due to a hard Brexit bounce.
		
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Yet again you are selective in your quotes.

One poll showed support for UKIP at 8%. Five subsequent polls show it at 5 - 6%.

In any event their current level is way below their pre-referendum support. 

I still haven't seen seen any evidence to corroborate your claim for parties of the far right.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2018)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/68420...-they-think-the-mainstream-has-let-them-down/

Just one click on google and bob's your uncle.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My reading is fine whilst yours seems to have missed the polls that have UKIP support up to 8% and running level with the Lib Dems in England and Wales.  Probably due to a hard Brexit bounce.
		
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The trend, July '17 to July '18 shows Labour down from 42% to 39%. Tories from 39% to 39%. UKIP from 4% to 5%. 

There isn't enough polls in for the last few weeks to give an accurate projection but all the noise is for UKIP to pick up at least one more % point. Labour haven't been hurt in the slightest by the wreath laying controversy as the Corbyn supporters are pretty entrenched in their views, and those making the most noise about it are Corbyn detractors anyway.

The big test will come in the next few weeks. The EU are making concessionary noises about the Chequers' Plan, which many will see as a huge positive, assuming Brexit will happen. The Tory ERG group have a growing support in the party but, equally, if they damage the party too much it will be to the greater benefit of Labour. If Labour becomes more centre left they will walk the next election.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 19, 2018)

With polls having been so wrong on so many occasions I am not sure why any notice is taken of them...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			With polls having been so wrong on so many occasions I am not sure why any notice is taken of them...
		
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Not nowadays, independent polls of over 1000 participants are pretty accurate.

Loaded question commissioned  polls are not so good, but generally good for a laugh.
Hence a dead dog being the best option for PM.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 19, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not nowadays, independent polls of over 1000 participants are pretty accurate.

Loaded question commissioned  polls are not so good, but generally good for a laugh.
Hence a dead dog being the best option for PM.
		
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Sorry Doon, but really don't believe there's an independent anything where politics is involved...

We'll all naturally pick out the bits that best suit our POV...


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...
The big test will come in the next few weeks. The EU are making concessionary noises about the Chequers' Plan, which many will see as a huge positive, assuming Brexit will happen. The Tory ERG group have a growing support in the party but, equally, if they damage the party too much it will be to the greater benefit of Labour. If Labour becomes more centre left they will walk the next election.
		
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I expect the ERG mob to, pretty much, disband once Brexit is 'finalised'. Their goal (Brexit) will have been achieved, even if many 'withdrawl agreements' will have been deferred!

EU has to make concessions imo! It actually has more to lose than the UK! The additional burden that UK will require, to replace much of the 'beauracracy' currently performed by the EU (partially funded by UK), will be required whatever form Brexit takes.

May has to be seen to be 'leading' this - at least from a UK perspective - something she's not altogether convincing with (or convinced about herself!) imo. However, with such 'damaged' opposition as Labour currently is, I don't believe she is in real danger from that side. As long as she can convince enough within her own party that she is the one to 'manage' Brexit, she will be safe! But considering some of the tactics and actions for recent votes, there could be some more precarious votes ahead!


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Sorry Doon, but really don't believe there's an independent anything where politics is involved...

We'll all naturally pick out the bits that best suit our POV...
		
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Looking at the polling company yougov they've been pretty much spot on with their polls in the last 2 years. And with regards to the Brexit vote they were predicting 52 'v' 48 in the weeks up to the vote. They're worth a look.


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## User62651 (Aug 28, 2018)

Anyone seen the dancing? Just NO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45329910/theresa-may-dons-her-dancing-shoes-in-sa

She doesn't help herself really.:mmm:


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## USER1999 (Aug 28, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone seen the dancing? Just NO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45329910/theresa-may-dons-her-dancing-shoes-in-sa

She doesn't help herself really.:mmm:
		
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And if she had said no, she would be a spoil sport, no fun, a drab.

She cannot win on this one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 28, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone seen the dancing? Just NO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45329910/theresa-may-dons-her-dancing-shoes-in-sa

She doesn't help herself really.:mmm:
		
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That will be replayed so many times, remember George Bush jr and his jig? It is an image that will be burned into many a retina now.

HiGNFY will be desperate to get back on air just to show that clip over and over.


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## User62651 (Aug 28, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			And if she had said no, she would be a spoil sport, no fun, a drab.

She cannot win on this one.
		
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True...but still funny/cringe.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 28, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			And if she had said no, she would be a spoil sport, no fun, a drab.

She cannot win on this one.
		
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Some things you know you just can't do and you need an exit strategy. I have as much rhythm as TM so I would have stood still and clapped. Join in the fun, laugh at yourself, but don't give the press that joyous clip that she has handed on a plate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			And if she had said no, she would be a spoil sport, no fun, a drab.

She cannot win on this one.
		
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I for one would love to see the 'dad dancing' skills of those who are criticising her.

Bless her, she gave it a shot.....Thatcher would not have done that.:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I for one would love to see the 'dad dancing' skills of those who are criticising her.

Bless her, she gave it a shot.....Thatcher would not have done that.:lol:[/&#129316;
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

Let's hope May is frank with her party about Brexit, Chequers and alternatives at the coming Tory Party Conference - and that she absolutely slams Johnson into the ground.  May might not go down in history as our greatest ever PM - but she will have the gratitude of a lot of the country if she protects us from the disaster of a Johnson PM.


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## Dellboy (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Let's hope May is frank with her party about Brexit, * Chequers and alternatives at the coming Tory Party Conference - and that she absolutely slams Johnson into the ground.  *May might not go down in history as our greatest ever PM *-but she will have the gratitude of a lot of the country if she protects us from the disaster of a Johnson PM.
		
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Why would she start telling the truth now, she has lied up to now about Brexit and her failed Chequers plan, it won't work..it can't work..also will never get passed over here, time she stood aside and let someone else take control.

She's not our greatest pm by a long shot, but there has been many worse than her from both parties.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			She's not our greatest pm by a long shot, but there has been many worse than her from both parties.
		
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Go on then, name that tune. Don't forget, you said many.


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## User62651 (Sep 5, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			Why would she start telling the truth now, she has lied up to now about Brexit and her failed Chequers plan, it won't work..it can't work..also will never get passed over here, time she stood aside and let someone else take control.

She's not our greatest pm by a long shot,* but there has been many worse than her from both parties*.
		
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Such as...? 
I think she may be the worst ever. Not a bad person, just not a leader  - uninspiring, instills zero coinfidence in just about anything she says, no conviction or belief in what she's doing.
Tbh I'm not a Boris fan but beginning to wonder if he may actually be a better choice for PM, just to stop the dithering, make a decision and actually get Brexit done and dusted so we can move on. With Corbyn dug in as Labour leader and Cable absolutely nowhere the country just won't go away from Tories so little in the way of alternatives.

Are we really this short of capable political leaders?


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2018)

Past Gov Gen of BofE nailed it on TV this morning....


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## Tashyboy (Sep 5, 2018)

A quick recap of the Brexit disaster. 
David Cameron give his promise of vote of whether to stay in or exit the EU, Whilst winning the general election.
Against all expectations the UK vote for Brexit.
David Cameron and George Osborne abandon ship and leave the country high and dry.
Theresa May takes over.
Theresa May callas a general election to strengthen her hand.
It goes tits up.
MPs from both sides have there own agenda against and for Brexit.
The EU has its own agenda, wanting to squeeze as much cash out of the U.K. As possible.
Some MPs want a second vote.
Don't matter who is PM be it Theresa, Boris or superman. Brexit which will happen will not please everyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			A quick recap of the Brexit disaster.
David Cameron give his promise of vote of whether to stay in or exit the EU, Whilst winning the general election.
Against all expectations the UK vote for Brexit.
David Cameron and George Osborne abandon ship and leave the country high and dry.
Theresa May takes over.
Theresa May callas a general election to strengthen her hand.
It goes tits up.
MPs from both sides have there own agenda against and for Brexit.
The EU has its own agenda, wanting to squeeze as much cash out of the U.K. As possible.
Some MPs want a second vote.
Don't matter who is PM be it Theresa, Boris or superman. Brexit which will happen will not please everyone.
		
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And if the Brexit that will happen will not please anyone then why have that Brexit?  May needs to spell out some difficult truths.  It may cause her to crash and burn but at least the truth will be out there.  And the more truth about the scheming, devious, and self-serving liar that is Johnson so much the better.

So just go for it Mrs May - you have nothing to lose and much gratitude to gain from many of us.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2018)

Tashy, I agree it will not please everyone. That is what happens when the country is so evenly split. The mistake, IMO, is that she has been so wishy washy. Whoever was doing this needed to have a plan, think it through, work out the weaknesses and then plough ahead with it. Have some conviction. Her lack of conviction and determination is letting her, and us, down badly.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 5, 2018)

She'll have next years strictly to look forward too !


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			...
Are we really this short of capable political leaders?
		
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Yes! It would seem so!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

And so we are in PMQs - and as usual when asked a direct question about life after a _No Deal_ (unusually Corbyn asked a straight question) our PM either didn't understand what her Secretary of State for Leaving the EU (Mr Raab) meant when referring to _'countervailing opportunities'_, or put into play her recently discovered skills to dance around actually answering it.

Aside - wondering if Mr Raab thinks that by using clever words (see also Rees-Mogg) he will give the public the impression that he knows what he is talking about and/or nobody will spot that he might be stretching the truth of it a little.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Go on then, name that tune. Don't forget, you said many.
		
Click to expand...


John flippin' Major has to be a shoe in for any rotten tomato list of PMs


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			John flippin' Major has to be a shoe in for any rotten tomato list of PMs
		
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Major and Brown would be my two. I don't know that May is better than either though. If you were to say 'what is her philosophy', 'what has she achieved' I don't think you could answer clearly either of those. I think Cameron is not far behind for the same reason. I have more respect for a PM that a vision and carries it through, even if I don't agree with it. Wishy washy PM's are no use.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 5, 2018)

Am not sure that any of the current politicians could of done a good brexit. May included. This years theme is â€œ i am offendedâ€. Someone will be offended whoever takes us out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Am not sure that any of the current politicians could of done a good brexit. May included. This years theme is â€œ i am offendedâ€. Someone will be offended whoever takes us out.
		
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You are - I think - quite right - a good Brexit could never exist.  After 40yrs, the UK is too enmeshed with the EU, and through the EU with the RoW, and the mechanisms underpinning world trade have moved on a long way since we were the glorious nation of the thoroughly benighted 1970s.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are - I think - quite right - a good Brexit could never exist.  After 40yrs, the UK is too enmeshed with the EU, and through the EU with the RoW, and the mechanisms underpinning world trade have moved on a long way since we were the glorious nation of the thoroughly benighted 1970s.
		
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And, being too enmeshed is probably the strongest reason/concern why many wished/voted exit...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			And, being too enmeshed is probably the strongest reason/concern why many wished/voted exit...
		
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...and like many things that have developed and grown together over many years - untangling and trying to extract one part from the rest can simply end up with you breaking or seriously damaging the thing you are trying to extract.  And so you decide that it just isn't worth it and live with it the way it is.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so you decide that it just isn't worth it and live with it the way it is.
		
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Not sure that's part of our psyche though...


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## bobmac (Sep 5, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Don't matter who is PM be it Theresa, Boris or superman. Brexit which will happen will not please *everyone*.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if the Brexit that will happen will not please *anyone* then why have that Brexit?
		
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Everyone, not anyone.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so you decide that it just isn't worth it and live with it the way it is.
		
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That's a new one. The "it's too difficult to leave the EU so we might as well remain" argument. Just as well not everyone thinks that way or we'd all still be living in caves wondering what's in the next valley.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's a new one. The "it's too difficult to leave the EU so we might as well remain" argument. Just as well not everyone thinks that way or we'd all still be living in caves wondering what's in the next valley.
		
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Wales ðŸ˜‰


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## Tashyboy (Sep 5, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's a new one. The "it's too difficult to leave the EU so we might as well remain" argument. Just as well not everyone thinks that way or we'd all still be living in caves wondering what's in the next valley.
		
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There's another valley. ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Not sure that's part of our psyche though...
		
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Maybe not.  But sometimes we all have to take a pragmatic approach as there is no point in destroying or seriously damaging that which we wish to extract if we can live with it as it is.  One of these things where we have to understand the difference between what we want to happen or do, and what is the right thing to happen or do.  If in the process of extracting something that I cherish I destroy or seriously damage it - maybe the right thing to do is to just leave it where it is and treasure it there.


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## Hobbit (Sep 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe not.  But sometimes we all have to take a pragmatic approach as there is no point in destroying or seriously damaging that which we wish to extract if we can live with it as it is.  One of these things where we have to understand the difference between what we want to happen or do, and what is the right thing to happen or do.  If in the process of extracting something that I cherish I destroy or seriously damage it - maybe the right thing to do is to just leave it where it is and treasure it there.
		
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Can't disagree with that on a philosophical level but sometimes you have to break an egg to make an omelette. Some people aren't fussed if the shell comes apart in half a dozen pieces whereas I like it to be in 2 pieces.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Can't disagree with that on a philosophical level but sometimes you have to break an egg to make an omelette. Some people aren't fussed if the shell comes apart in half a dozen pieces whereas I like it to be in 2 pieces.
		
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...and once you have that omelette you are stuck with it if you change your mind - difficult to get an omelette back into the eggshell - no matter how carefully and perfectly you crack open the egg


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## MegaSteve (Sep 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe not.  But sometimes we all have to take a pragmatic approach as there is no point in destroying or seriously damaging that which we wish to extract if we can live with it as it is.  One of these things where we have to understand the difference between what we want to happen or do, and what is the right thing to happen or do.  If in the process of extracting something that I cherish I destroy or seriously damage it - maybe the right thing to do is to just leave it where it is and treasure it there.
		
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Bureaucracy begats bureaucracy begats bureaucracy ad infinitum...
At some point our pockets simply stop being deep enough to fund all this...
And, a halt has to be called for...


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## Hobbit (Sep 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and once you have that omelette you are stuck with it if you change your mind - difficult to get an omelette back into the eggshell - no matter how carefully and perfectly you crack open the egg 

Click to expand...

And the people said they wanted an omelette and are now waiting for the waiter to deliver it. Unfortunately it would appear no one in government knows how to make what the people have asked for, but they haven't changed their mind yet, they still want an omelette.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And the people said they wanted an omelette and are now waiting for the waiter to deliver it. Unfortunately it would appear no one in government knows how to make what the people have asked for, but they haven't changed their mind yet, they still want an omelette.
		
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And they are being egged on by some who only know how to scramble eggs...and are pretty rotten stinkers of bad eggs at that 

And meanwhile Mrs May is learning how to boil an egg and is not doing such a good job of that.


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## User62651 (Sep 7, 2018)

Good news for Theresa May with her chief rival for PM in the press - reading BJ's mrs has finally had enough of his* alleged* repeated extra martial shenanigans, getting divorced.

Not ideal for a wannabee PM, last single PM was Macdonald in 1935.

Will this work against him politically?


So Boris could be in the lonely hearts column soon - what would his ad say?

 - "cuddly middle aged wannabee politican seeks lady for chats and maybe more, location Westminster. Hobbies -Likes jogging in the park, jolly japes and insulting those of a foreign persuasion. Solvent, own flat and electric bicycle.....wanna make it a tandem then get in touch ....wooof"


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 7, 2018)

I don't know that anyone cares in this day and age. Better divorced and single than constantly cheating on his wife.


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## User62651 (Sep 7, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know that anyone cares in this day and age. Better divorced and single than constantly cheating on his wife.
		
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Doesn't matter with Joe Bloggs, no-one cares there but it matters when you're very high profile poltician/celebrity wanting to hold position of prime minister,  can/will be used by opponents to weaken him, show a lack of moral fibre, unsuitability for PM etc etc.
If you want to be PM and have mistresses too you need to be more discreet or better still show some respect to your spouse/children and not do it. Is it not another sign of Boris's lack of personal qualities needed to lead?
It's the older generation that Johnson gets support from most, they're perhaps less tolerant of such behaviour...alleged. Time will tell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Doesn't matter with Joe Bloggs, no-one cares there but it matters when you're very high profile poltician/celebrity wanting to hold position of prime minister,  can/will be used by opponents to weaken him, show a lack of moral fibre, unsuitability for PM etc etc.
If you want to be PM and have mistresses too you need to be more discreet or better still show some respect to your spouse/children and not do it. Is it not another sign of Boris's lack of personal qualities needed to lead?
It's the older generation that Johnson gets support from most, they're perhaps less tolerant of such behaviour...alleged. Time will tell.
		
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And one might just wonder what insight the, perhaps soon to be, ex-Mrs Johnson could have on the ambitions and workings of her, perhaps soon to be, ex-husband.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 7, 2018)

History is littered with politicians whose careers haven't been harmed by their known infidelity. 

In fact could be said to have enhanced the standing of some (Corbyn being a recent example).


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2018)

Latest positivity ratings for Tory leadership
May minus 26
Johnson minus 22

Beam me up Scotty.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest positivity ratings for Tory leadership
May minus 26
Johnson minus 22

Beam me up Scotty.
		
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I wish he would.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2018)

So how is our PM doing? That PM for whom Johnson, Gove and all the other pretenders bravely and honourably stood aside for as the proverbial was about to hit the fan - as indeed it has in an almighty spattering.  And they stand to the side hurling brickbats and blaming May.  And she struggles on gamely but totally ineffectually - and indeed presenting a rather desperate figure - trying to sell an answer to the unanswerable riddle of Brexit.  

Oh how I want some really honesty from her at the Tory Party Conference - and not more of this recent faux frustration and confected anger over the EU and the Brexit negotiations that she seems to think we - the Great British public - are stupid enough to buy in to.  When those who can see - see it for just what it is - an inauthentic fop to those who who are just straining at the leash to stab her in the back.


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## Hobbit (Sep 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So how is our PM doing? That PM for whom Johnson, Gove and all the other pretenders bravely and honourably stood aside for as the proverbial was about to hit the fan - as indeed it has in an almighty spattering.  And they stand to the side hurling brickbats and blaming May.  And she struggles on gamely but totally ineffectually - and indeed presenting a rather desperate figure - trying to sell an answer to the unanswerable riddle of Brexit. 

Oh how I want some really honesty from her at the Tory Party Conference - and not more of this recent faux frustration and confected anger over the EU and the Brexit negotiations that she seems to think we - the Great British public - are stupid enough to buy in to.  When those who can see - see it for just what it is - an inauthentic fop to those who who are just straining at the leash to stab her in the back.
		
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So you KNOW its faux frustration and confected anger do you? You have inside knowledge that its not genuine? She's phoned you and told you its all for effect has she?

Obviously another one of your opinions expressed as facts more like.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2018)

Open question of which i dont know if there is an answer. 
If May is not the person to lead us out of europe. Who is the better person who will unite everyone.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2018)

Harry Rednapp


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Harry Rednapp
		
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Sometimes the answer is right in front of you. ðŸ˜


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2018)

I don't think we can be united on this issue, it is too divisive and far reaching. What it needs, imo, is someone who is decisive and will follow their vision through. I may or may not agree with that vision but at least they will drive it through. A large part of the problem, for me, is the wishy washy approach we have had so far.


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Harry Rednapp
		
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He'd just spend loads of money, get no results and then the sack (very much like Corbyn then)


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## Foxholer (Sep 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...
Obviously another one of your opinions expressed as facts more like.
		
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Just like every 'non-quote' in any news article or, more to the point, post on this thread!



Tashyboy said:



			Open question of which i dont know if there is an answer.
If May is not the person to lead us out of europe. Who is the better person who will unite everyone.
		
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If there had been an obvious and competent alternative candidate, then I'm certain May (as a Remainer) would not have won the leadership!


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## Dellboy (Sep 23, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Open question of which i dont know if there is an answer.
If May is not the person to lead us out of europe. Who is the better person who will unite everyone.
		
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May should step down, you canâ€™t have someone who doesnâ€™t believe in Brexit leading the country out of the EU, as to who should be in charge, any ture brexit MP would be fine with me, they just need to get us out now without paying the EU a dam penny.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2018)

I am not to sure that a brexiteer would be the right person to lead the Party/ Country out of the EU. At least with a remainer its looks like there trying to get some kind of a deal. A deal that its seems people from
All parties, left and right wingers donâ€™t  want. Still think that as it is, no deal is the nearest we will get to any deal. From a EU point of view. Saw a piece yeaterday that said the UK would be paying Â£15 Billion a year after a 6 billion rebate from 2021. 15 BILLION. No deal sounds good to Tashyboy only bettered by not being in the EU. Crack on Missis May.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			So you KNOW its faux frustration and confected anger do you? You have inside knowledge that its not genuine? She's phoned you and told you its all for effect has she?

Obviously another one of your opinions expressed as facts more like.
		
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Of course it's my opinion and not fact.  The impression I get from May on almost all things is one of inauthenticity...and is it not the case that it is often simply the impression that we form of leading politicians from what they say and how they say it that matters to us.  In much the same way I think of Corbyn.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course it's my opinion and not fact.  The impression I get from May on almost all things is one of inauthenticity...and is it not the case that it is often simply the impression that we form of leading politicians from what they say and how they say it that matters to us.  In much the same way I think of Corbyn.
		
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Barnier made great noises 2 weeks ago about being almost there on a deal, including customs checks away from the border in NI. Several of the EU PM's also made good noises about a breakthrough and that a deal looked on the cards by November. May was disgustingly ambushed in Salzburg. That ambush, and that's being gentle, was highly unprofessional for high ranking politicians.

Faux frustration and confected anger? Oh for god's sake get real!!! Its one thing for the EU to hold fast on their red lines, totally understand and accept that, but to speak as they did two weeks ago then ambush May last week... sorry but however you want to colour it with your EU tinted glasses it was a disgusting piece of work. I'd gladly walk away now, and withhold the â‚¬39bn. If they want to behave so unethically I'd have no qualms in telling them to whistle for their â‚¬39bn.


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barnier made great noises 2 weeks ago about being almost there on a deal, including customs checks away from the border in NI. Several of the EU PM's also made good noises about a breakthrough and that a deal looked on the cards by November. May was disgustingly ambushed in Salzburg. That ambush, and that's being gentle, was highly unprofessional for high ranking politicians.

Faux frustration and confected anger? Oh for god's sake get real!!! Its one thing for the EU to hold fast on their red lines, totally understand and accept that, but to speak as they did two weeks ago then ambush May last week... sorry but however you want to colour it with your EU tinted glasses it was a disgusting piece of work. I'd gladly walk away now, and withhold the â‚¬39bn. If they want to behave so unethically I'd have no qualms in telling them to whistle for their â‚¬39bn.
		
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I think you're spot-on. In my view it is totally unprofessional when (so-called) negotiators start rabbiting on social media, etc. These guys are playing a game for 'private' reasons that have little to do with the benefits of the citizens of the EU27. Raab and Davis before him reported how it did not seem that Barnier or Tusk were treating the talks seriously. They have suggested nothing.

I've said before but a read of Yanis Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" will show he  pretty much predicted the sadly sorry mess of the EU's approach.


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## Mudball (Oct 4, 2018)

Whats the verdict on her Conference speech?  Dont know if she is human or a bot but she is definitely cross with BoJo...   Did not expect her to dance to Abba.. who would have thought that Maybot can put on a funny act...  (i wonder how much training went into the dance and the opening jokes).    Back on the subject....    'End to Austerity!!!!'


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 4, 2018)

My eyes are still burning. The pain, the pain . I like the concept, always good for a politician to laugh at themselves but boy it was hard to watch.

An end to austerity. A good soundbite but whether that is true or not we will see come the next budget. She badly needs to grab control of her govt, create some good news as everything is currently spiralling away from her. If TM was to leave tomorrow what would her legacy be, what policy would you say, TM did that, well done? Nothing that I can think of and she needs that to change.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2018)

Well it seems to me that Theresa May is simply being PM one day at a time - basically doing whatever she has to do each day to keep going and keep the attack dogs of her own party at bay as best she can - even if that means storing up issues for later.  Not really what a PM should be doing.  But what to do about her?  

I heard written that one strategy being discussed in the circles of Tory MPs who hate what she is doing on Brexit - but knowing that a Tory Party Leadership contest could be terrible at this point in the Brexit negotiations - would be to keep her as leader of the Tory Party but appoint a.n.other to be Prime Minister - apparently there is nothing stopping any party doing that.  

And many would have Dave Davies to be 'just the man' to be tough with the EU in closing stages of the negotiations - his apparent failure to agree *anything *as SoS for DExEU was - they say - not his fault but down to May blocking his every brilliant plan and negotiating strategy.

Oh good grief.

Brexit - Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well it seems to me that Theresa May is simply being PM one day at a time - basically doing whatever she has to do each day to keep going and keep the attack dogs of her own party at bay as best she can - even if that means storing up issues for later.  Not really what a PM should be doing.  But what to do about her?

I heard written that one strategy being discussed in the circles of Tory MPs who hate what she is doing on Brexit - but knowing that a Tory Party Leadership contest could be terrible at this point in the Brexit negotiations - would be to keep her as leader of the Tory Party but appoint a.n.other to be Prime Minister - apparently there is nothing stopping any party doing that.

And many would have Dave Davies to be 'just the man' to be tough with the EU in closing stages of the negotiations - his apparent failure to agree *anything *as SoS for DExEU was - they say - not his fault but down to May blocking his every brilliant plan and negotiating strategy.

Oh good grief.

Brexit - Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
		
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There is absolutely NO CHANCE of Theresa May being removed as PM and staying on as Tory party leader, it's either both or neither.  Anyone thinking any different needs to go and see their GP...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2018)

ger147 said:



			There is absolutely NO CHANCE of Theresa May being removed as PM and staying on as Tory party leader, it's either both or neither.  Anyone thinking any different needs to go and see their GP...
		
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Well it appears that some Brextremists are actually thinking that way - and my understanding is that to be PM all you have to be is an MP and to be able to command a majority in the Commons - but the PM does not have to be leader of the majority party.  

But I would certainly agree that they perhaps need to visit their GP as they are verging on the insane


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2018)

There is a difference between theory and reality. In theory SilH is correct. In the real world ger147 is correct. The real world tends to win.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
But I would certainly agree that they perhaps need to visit their GP as they are *verging on the insane*

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So not their GP then!


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well it appears that some Brextremists are actually thinking that way - and my understanding is that to be PM all you have to be is an MP and to be able to command a majority in the Commons - but the PM does not have to be leader of the majority party. 

But I would certainly agree that they perhaps need to visit their GP as they are verging on the insane 

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According to Conservative party rules, any Conservative PM has to be the leader of the party and the leader of the party also has to be an MP.  So as far as the Tories are concerned, your understanding is wrong.  And I'm sure if I know that the Tory MP's also know that.

Would love to know what your source is for thinking others are having those thoughts re. May.

Say Hi to your GP for me when you pop in...


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a difference between theory and reality. In theory SilH is correct. In the real world ger147 is correct. The real world tends to win.
		
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Tory party rules do not permit anyone but the leader of the Tory party being the Tory PM.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2018)

The ironic side of me raises a titter at the prospect of less than 20 'no surrender type' MP's from Ulster and Scotland bringing a UK Tory Government down.
Especially as 13 of them were given Â£1.3,000,000,000.00 to stay 'staunch and loyal'.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Tory party rules do not permit anyone but the leader of the Tory party being the Tory PM.
		
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I did not realise that, thank you. I worded my post incorrectly really, or was not clear. I was agreeing with SilH point that the PM does not have to be a leader of a party. He is correct, it can be any MP. The reality is it would never happen, you would need other MP's to all ignore their own party, the party whip etc. As you have pointed out, it would also be impossible for a Tory MP as it goes against their rules and they would instantly lose the party whip. It is largely a hypothetical discussion anyway, but better to get the facts correct still.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I did not realise that, thank you. I worded my post incorrectly really, or was not clear. I was agreeing with SilH point that the PM does not have to be a leader of a party. He is correct, it can be any MP. The reality is it would never happen, you would need other MP's to all ignore their own party, the party whip etc. As you have pointed out, it would also be impossible for a Tory MP as it goes against their rules and they would instantly lose the party whip. It is largely a hypothetical discussion anyway, but better to get the facts correct still.
		
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You don't have to be an MP to be PM either so he was wrong about that too.  

Each party has their own rules re. who can be Leader/PM and it varies from party to party.  You can of course become PM without a party or being an MP in theory but I was replying to SILH's specific example re. May remaining as Tory leader but stepping down as PM.  That is not possible even in theory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Tory party rules do not permit anyone but the leader of the Tory party being the Tory PM.
		
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Well these 'some' Tories must be wondering what it takes to change Tory Party rules at very short notice


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## ger147 (Oct 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well these 'some' Tories must be wondering what it takes to change Tory Party rules at very short notice 

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What was your source?


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2018)

ger147 said:



			What was your source?
		
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A change to Tory rules was mooted in Aug, but it came to nothing. Apart from the current rumblings there's been nothing about a change of rules, well not that I've read...


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## ger147 (Oct 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A change to Tory rules was mooted in Aug, but it came to nothing. Apart from the current rumblings there's been nothing about a change of rules, well not that I've read...
		
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There is nothing in the offing re. changing the Tory party rules to allow their leader not to be PM.  As SILH made the suggestion that "some Tories" were contemplating the idea of TM remaining as leader but no longer being PM, I was interested in finding out where he heard that as there has been nothing of the sort reported that I have seen/heard in the mainstream media.

I suspect that at best he is mistaken re. what he thought he heard or perhaps he just made it up...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2018)

ger147 said:



			You don't have to be an MP to be PM either so he was wrong about that too.  

Each party has their own rules re. who can be Leader/PM and it varies from party to party.  You can of course become PM without a party or being an MP in theory but I was replying to SILH's specific example re. May remaining as Tory leader but stepping down as PM.  That is not possible even in theory.
		
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ger147 said:



			What was your source?
		
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I heard it said - I did not make it up - but it was perhaps said more in respect of the musings that some desperate Tory MPs are having about how to get rid of Theresa May as PM without there being a leadership contest.  many Tory MPs recognise that a leadership contest at this point in time would look to much of the electorate as being very self-indulgent; potentially damaging to the party reputation and also to the negotiations, and hence raising the risk of a No Deal.  I don't think it was a very serious consideration - but just mentioned as a possible option in their desperation.

And I believe that it is possible constitutionally for someone who is not the leader of the party in government to be the PM.  All that individual has to be able to do is command a majority in the HoC.  Tory Party rules may not permit that at the moment in respect of May and a replacement.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard it said - I did not make it up - but it was perhaps said more in respect of the musings that some desperate Tory MPs are having about how to get rid of Theresa May as PM without there being a leadership contest.  many Tory MPs recognise that a leadership contest at this point in time would look to much of the electorate as being very self-indulgent; potentially damaging to the party reputation and also to the negotiations, and hence raising the risk of a No Deal.  I don't think it was a very serious consideration - but just mentioned as a possible option in their desperation.

And I believe that it is possible constitutionally for someone who is not the leader of the party in government to be the PM.  All that individual has to be able to do is command a majority in the HoC.  Tory Party rules may not permit that at the moment in respect of May and a replacement.
		
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Where did you hear it said/who said it?

It is indeed possible to be PM without being a leader of a party, you don't even have to be an MP.  But Theresa May CANNOT stand down as PM and remain Tory party leader which is the example you gave.  It is NOT a possible option and I put it to you that the Tory MP's know that very well...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Where did you hear it said/who said it?

It is indeed possible to be PM without being a leader of a party, you don't even have to be an MP.  But Theresa May CANNOT stand down as PM and remain Tory party leader which is the example you gave.  It is NOT a possible option and I put it to you that the Tory MP's know that very well...
		
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I don't know - and frankly it doesn't matter.  If you don't think anyone - even a mega EU-sceptic - would be daft or ill-informed enough to think of such a way of getting a new PM in place then fine.  You say it is not a possible option.  That may absolutely be the case given current Tory party rules but that does not mean that it is impossible looking ahead - rules can be changed.  Besides - I am only relaying what I heard said in the context of the desperation of some Tory MPs.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know - and frankly it doesn't matter.  If you don't think anyone - even a mega EU-sceptic - would be daft or ill-informed enough to think of such a way of getting a new PM in place then fine.  You say it is not a possible option.  That may absolutely be the case given current Tory party rules but that does not mean that it is impossible looking ahead - rules can be changed.  Besides - I am only relaying what I heard said in the context of the desperation of some Tory MPs.
		
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So it's as I assumed - at best misunderstood although I have to say I'm leaning more towards being made up i.e.I don't believe for one second you heard that at all.


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2018)

ger147 said:



			So it's as I assumed - at best misunderstood although I have to say I'm leaning more towards being made up i.e.I don't believe for one second you heard that at all.
		
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You havnt met his barber


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2018)

ger147 said:



			So it's as I assumed - at best misunderstood although I have to say I'm leaning more towards being made up i.e.I don't believe for one second you heard that at all.
		
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It's not assumed - it's what I heard said of the musings of a EU-sceptic Tory MP wondering how to get rid of May without triggering a leadership election.  You can choose to think I am making it up - but why would I do that - why might I even think it up?

If it was from anyone it will have been from the Political Correspondent of LBC - Theo Usherwood


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not assumed - it's what I heard said of the musings of a EU-sceptic Tory MP wondering how to get rid of May without triggering a leadership election.  You can choose to think I am making it up - but why would I do that - why might I even think it up?
		
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So you can remember clearly what you heard but not who said it? Mmm...

Yes, I think you're making it up which is very sad bearing in mind how offended you get when you accuse Trump, Farage, Boris etc. of doing the same.

The Tory MP's, all of them, know the only 2 ways to get rid of May is either she resigns or the Tory MP's pass a vote of no confidence in her. In either scenario, if she ceases to be Tory leader she also ceases to be PM and vice versa.  They all know that so they would not be musing over how to ditch her as PM but keep her as leader, it's as simple as that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2018)

ger147 said:



			So you can remember clearly what you heard but not who said it? Mmm...

Yes, I think you're making it up which is very sad bearing in mind how offended you get when you accuse Trump, Farage, Boris etc. of doing the same.

The Tory MP's, all of them, know the only 2 ways to get rid of May is either she resigns or the Tory MP's pass a vote of no confidence in her. In either scenario, if she ceases to be Tory leader she also ceases to be PM and vice versa.  They all know that so they would not be musing over how to ditch her as PM but keep her as leader, it's as simple as that.
		
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I am not making this up.  It may have been a random throw-away thought by whoever said it - I do not know - but I am not making it up.  And whoever I heard report it did so as if it were said in desperation not jest,


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## drdel (Oct 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not making this up.  It may have been a random throw-away thought by whoever said it - I do not know - but I am not making it up.  *And whoever I heard report it did so as if it were said in desperation not jest*,
		
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Really - you are unable to remember the source but your memory allows you to accurately recall the nuance !!! I'm sure a judge and jury would be more than happy to accept such a witness report as  evidence


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 26, 2018)

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...families-are-raiding-skips-at-night-for-food/

Imagine the uproar this headline would have raised if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014.
In my opinion the full roll out of Universal Credit will lead to civil unrest in the UK.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...families-are-raiding-skips-at-night-for-food/

Imagine the uproar this headline would have raised if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014.
In my opinion the full roll out of Universal Credit will lead to civil unrest in the UK.
		
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Strange as there were equal amounts of recipients stating how good the new benefit was (source: BBC Breakfast this morning).  Even Jeeza thought it was a good idea. Perhaps new claimants should take the option of having a months payment in advance to ease their problems.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2018)

drdel said:



			Really - you are unable to remember the source but your memory allows you to accurately recall the nuance !!! I'm sure a judge and jury would be more than happy to accept such a witness report as  evidence
		
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There is no nuance.  It is quite a simple thought.  Keep May as Leader to avoid a leadership contest and put someone else in as PM.


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## ger147 (Oct 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is no nuance.  It is quite a simple thought.  Keep May as Leader to avoid a leadership contest and put someone else in as PM.
		
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Not possible as previously advised, and EVERY Tory MP knows it, not matter how eurosceptic... #fakenews


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Not possible as previously advised, and EVERY Tory MP knows it, not matter how eurosceptic... #fakenews
		
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Fake News is when someone reports something that did not happen...

And yes I now know that it is not possible under current Tory Party rules - you have most kindly advised me - but that was not mentioned in the report that I heard.  I simply mentioned here what I heard reported as it was reported as reflecting the desperation that at least one Tory MP feels about May and the need to get rid of her as PM.

#notfakenews


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## ger147 (Oct 28, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fake News is when someone reports something that did not happen...
		
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Precisely - you did not hear what you claim to have heard.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Precisely - you did not hear what you claim to have heard.
		
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No change there then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			No change there then.
		
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Well if you think that I am spinning a yarn then fine - nothing I can do about that.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well if you think that I am spinning a yarn then fine - nothing I can do about that.
		
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Where have I accused you of spinning a yarn. You don't spin yarns, just your continued ability to post on subjects and when it's proven to be rubbish you are very quick to attribute it to someone else. Your barber really must up his game.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Where have I accused you of spinning a yarn. You don't spin yarns, just your continued ability to post on subjects and when it's proven to be rubbish you are very quick to attribute it to someone else. Your barber really must up his game.
		
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yaaawn

BTW - I think my barber has gone back to France


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yaaawn

BTW - I think my barber has gone back to France
		
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Easy way to find out. How longs your hair.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Easy way to find out. How longs your hair.
		
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It was cut by an English girl - my French barber's Algerian and Jordanian colleagues being busy.


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## badgb21 (Nov 14, 2018)

If these latest reports on the deal are correct, then she needs to step down IMO.
This sounds bad for both sides. Lost her spine.
Perhaps she could read her party's manifesto and perhaps recall some of her own earlier speeches.


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## User62651 (Nov 14, 2018)

May seems stuck between a rock and hard place. Could never keep her party or populace happy with this.

Leavers and remainers don't like any compromise deal yet a compromise of some kind was always on the cards in the real world.

It doesn't appear she can get this deal through commons as it is but she'll take it one step at a time, if she can firstly get main cabinet members united behind it today she moves forward, if some top ministers resign then she must be nearly done. If a few junior ministers resign don't think that'll matter.
Anyway who takes over? - still up to Tory 1922 committee to choose with a Tory party who are still majority remainers who will not let Johnson or Gove in.
If it ends up in a GE still think Tories will beat Labour under Corbyn so back to square one.

Interesting to see the different approach Johnson and Gove are taking, they were both front men for leave 2 years ago and one now is full on opposed to and other is towing PMs line, but both want to be PM.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			May seems stuck between a rock and hard place. Could never keep her party or populace happy with this.

Leavers and remainers don't like any compromise deal yet a compromise of some kind was always on the cards in the real world.

It doesn't appear she can get this deal through commons as it is but she'll take it one step at a time, if she can firstly get main cabinet members united behind it today she moves forward, if some top ministers resign then she must be nearly done. If a few junior ministers resign don't think that'll matter.
Anyway who takes over? - still up to Tory 1922 committee to choose with a Tory party who are still majority remainers who will not let Johnson or Gove in.
If it ends up in a GE still think Tories will beat Labour under Corbyn so back to square one.

Interesting to see the different approach Johnson and Gove are taking, they were both front men for leave 2 years ago and one now is full on opposed to and other is towing PMs line, but both want to be PM.
		
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Tories will win an election but I cannot see them having a majority.
If NI get a better deal out of it than Scotland then we are locked on for Indyref 2 in Scotland.
And of course the bonus of Viceroy Mundell resigning...that is if he is a man of his word.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2018)

Let's see how may rows back from the _Brexit means Brexit; Red White and Blue Brexit; _and most pertinently _No Deal is better than a Bad Deal._

Meanwhile her most vociferous opponents spout_ 'Will of the People' _and _'Vassal State'_ nonsense when asked their view on what they think May has come up with.

When they cannot define the first - as it means whatever you want it to mean as Brexit is not defined *anywhere; *and to be able to spout the latter with any degree of authenticity you have to understand the regulatory frameworks and laws that would make that so.  And whilst I'd like to hear JR-M or Johnson just try - they would bluster and dissemble - but ask your typical voter what precisely about May's deal would make the UK a Vassal State of the EU I think that most would struggle.

When JR-M spouts his cod-intellectual waffle about UK becoming a Vassal State he harks back to medieval times and the feudal system when the common man had very few if any freedoms. 

Let's not forget however that whilst serfs were subordinate to Knights, the feudal system meant that being a vassal subordinate to another *did not imply lack of freedom of thought and action by the vassal.*  Ask any Lord - after all they were vassal to the King - but still had plenty of power and freedom to do whatever they wanted.

UK a Vassal State? - well maybe - and maybe not a bad thing.

May has to somehow counter the bluster of such as JR-M, ID-S, Grayling, Leadsom, Jenkin and Johnson


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Well - under caller questioning this morning on Nick Ferrari's morning show on LBC - May kept calm and carried on.  We learnt nothing more than what she has said time and again over the last two days.  But at least for her supporters she didn't hit an iceberg.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is she got what it takes to be PM? Or is she like Gordie Broon - competent and totally comfortable in a very senior government role - but basically just not up to the job of PM.
...
I actually did have hopes for TM - but not sure she is up to it.
		
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I asked this question one week short of two years ago - oh how time has flown...

Well the Tory Party faithful clearly thought so as they elected her.  So we have only them to thank if she is doing great - and only them to blame if we have our doubts about Mrs May.

Now then - how is she doing...?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I asked this question one week short of two years ago - oh how time has flown...

Well the Tory Party faithful clearly thought so as they elected her.  So we have only them to thank if she is doing great - and only them to blame if we have our doubts about Mrs May.

Now then - how is she doing...?
		
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Who do you think they should have made leader.  Boris?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

Latest story line from 'a Tory Spokesman' is that the new PM Liddington will form a coalition with the SNP.
Wow, what are those guys on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Who do you think they should have made leader.  Boris?
		
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Well he it is whom they seem to love - him or Rees-Mogg (God help us and give Tory Party faithful the foresight to realise that both will lead us to chaos).

But since you asked - I'd now have Sajid Javid or Amber Rudd - maybe even Gove.  Liddington I just don't get - he just doesn't smell of authenticity to my senses.  My MP Jeremy Hunt?  As much as I know he is a nice enough guy - he frankly seems just a bit wet and seemingly too subservient to May.  That none of them were standing for leader IIRC after Cameron bu****ed-off tells me of the utter paucity of decent leadership candidates at the time.  Gove would have been my choice back then of an awful bunch.


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## User62651 (Dec 7, 2018)

So May has despatched her best ministers to the corners of the UK to drum up support for her deal. How does that work when the ones who can make a difference are the MPs in London? 
Does she think there's going to be a mad rush of Joe Blogg's phoning up their MPs demanding they back her deal next week? Don't quite understand this move.

Beginning to wonder if she actually wants out now, her refusal to listen to her own advisers saying delay Tuesday's vote is odd, like she knows she's going to lose heavily and that gives her the opportunity to step aside with some honour intact by saying 'I did the best I could, got a deal but parliament wouldn't back it'.....Bye


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			So May has despatched her best ministers to the corners of the UK to drum up support for her deal. How does that work when the ones who can make a difference are the MPs in London?
Does she think there's going to be a mad rush of Joe Blogg's phoning up their MPs demanding they back her deal next week? Don't quite understand this move.

Beginning to wonder if she actually wants out now, her refusal to listen to her own advisers saying delay Tuesday's vote is odd, like she knows she's going to lose heavily and that gives her the opportunity to step aside with some honour intact by saying 'I did the best I could, got a deal but parliament wouldn't back it'.....Bye

Click to expand...

She is either utterly clueless about what is happening around her or it is the last paragraph and she is effectively in holiday mode now, knowing the end is near. I tend to believe, like you, it is the latter. If she brings Scrabble in to the HoC next Tuesday then we will know for definite.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			She is either utterly clueless about what is happening around her or it is the last paragraph and she is effectively in holiday mode now, knowing the end is near. I tend to believe, like you, it is the latter. If she brings Scrabble in to the HoC next Tuesday then we will know for definite.
		
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Wondering if she's just decided that the only way the Brextremists in her party will be defeated or sidelined would be for the UK to leave with No Deal - and let them answer to the chaos - of whatever level that might present itself.  Maybe she is just heartily sick of them all and sees no other way - just let things run their course.  An exhausted and battered Mrs May could just have fallen to a sort of laissez-faire madness taking over her thinking...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2018)

What a complete and utter shambles of a government...a Tory party government - supposedly the party of competence.  

Beginning to wonder if there is a place for a UK equivalent to the 25th Amendment to the United States Constitution.   I'm guessing Rees-Mogg, Johnson and their cronies wish there were one.  Oh dearie dearie me.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What a complete and utter shambles of a government...a Tory party government - supposedly the party of competence.

Beginning to wonder if there is a place for a UK equivalent to the 25th Amendment to the United States Constitution.   I'm guessing Rees-Mogg, Johnson and their cronies wish there were one.  Oh dearie dearie me.
		
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I really fear for the UK. Irrespective of whatever direction the country decides to go down they are a complete joke. There's barely a handful of politicians I'd trust with a school crossing. Where o' where will our next Prime Minister come from? Corbyn? McDonnell(Himmler)? Boris, Mogg or Davies? Honestly... there isn't a one that looks like they have the statesmanship or gravitas to carry it off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I really fear for the UK. Irrespective of whatever direction the country decides to go down they are a complete joke. There's barely a handful of politicians I'd trust with a school crossing. Where o' where will our next Prime Minister come from? Corbyn? McDonnell(Himmler)? Boris, Mogg or Davies? Honestly... there isn't a one that looks like they have the statesmanship or gravitas to carry it off.
		
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I think Hunt will be the only acceptable candidate.
Whatever happens, after the next general election, the Tories will not see power again for many years.
Time for a new 'sensible' party to kick in, appealing to the centre based Labour and Tory voters. [ie the vast majority.]

May rebuffed straight away on her EU trip, what a waste of time


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## User62651 (Dec 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I really fear for the UK. Irrespective of whatever direction the country decides to go down they are a complete joke. There's barely a handful of politicians I'd trust with a school crossing. *Where o' where will our next Prime Minister come from?* Corbyn? McDonnell(Himmler)? Boris, Mogg or Davies? Honestly... there isn't a one that looks like they have the statesmanship or gravitas to carry it off.
		
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Eton and Oxbridge educated wealthy privileged career politician with zero idea of how most Britons scrape by in life as usual no doubt.

They know best of course, doff your caps plebs. We're all in it together!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I think Hunt will be the only acceptable candidate.*
Whatever happens, after the next general election, the Tories will not see power again for many years.
Time for a new 'sensible' party to kick in, appealing to the centre based Labour and Tory voters. [ie the vast majority.]

May rebuffed straight away on her EU trip, what a waste of time
		
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Until his strongly Remain constituency kick him out at the next election...(unlikely I guess).  Dr Louise Irvine of the National Heath Action Party ran rings round him (on more than the NHS) in the hustings for the last election - though Hunt still easily won the seat.

I might quite like the guy having met him a few times - but he doesn't have a great deal of oomph - or indeed that much in the way of political authenticity.  Some of his more recent utterrings seem aimed at specific UK electorate and Tory Party constituencies - currying their favour for something to come?  Meanwhile with May still PM - he can look very sycophantic in his support of her.


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## PieMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Well according to 48 members of her party. The leadership challenge is now on.

Am expecting Gove to be PM at the end of the process.


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2018)

How can the Tories change the PM now? 

They voted for her in 2016, changing that vote now would be undemocratic!!!


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

Tory MP's vote of confidence in TM will take place this evening. Postponong the vote on her deal was VERY unpopular in the HoC's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Tory MP's faced are with the impossible task of picking the least clueless of all the leadership candidates


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## jp5 (Dec 12, 2018)

The Conservative party calling for another vote on the PM? But I thought they already had a vote!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			How can the Tories change the PM now?

They voted for her in 2016, changing that vote now would be undemocratic!!!
		
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Nope. They are voting over who leads the party. She can remain as PM and not be the leader of the party. Strange but true.

This argument comes up whenever a PM changes between elections. In our system we only vote for our local MP, not the PM.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 12, 2018)

I've got a funny feeling that the Tories will vote in a Remainer type who will renegotiate the UK to follow everything the EU wants then everyone will be happy. Won't they?


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nope. They are voting over who leads the party. She can remain as PM and not be the leader of the party. Strange but true.

This argument comes up whenever a PM changes between elections. In our system we only vote for our local MP, not the PM.
		
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She can NOT remain as PM if she is not the leader of the Tories. Conservative party rules do not allow this.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 12, 2018)

Or John Redwood. Now that would be a shock but if they, the Tories, want to honour the vote, the referendum, he would be the man to pick. Gove and boris are wimps


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			How can the Tories change the PM now?

They voted for her in 2016, changing that vote now would be undemocratic!!!
		
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Don't worry 'we are the party for the whole nation' says May.
Totally oblivious to what damage she and her party have done to 'the nation' [and her 'precious union]


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nope. They are voting over who leads the party. She can remain as PM and not be the leader of the party. Strange but true.

This argument comes up whenever a PM changes between elections. In our system we only vote for our local MP, not the PM.
		
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I wasnâ€™t being overly serious...


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## drdel (Dec 12, 2018)

A change of leader at this time will change nothing for Brexit and or the Tories except to empower the opposition -do they have no brains cells?


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2018)

ger147 said:



			She can NOT remain as PM if she is not the leader of the Tories. Conservative party rules do not allow this.
		
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John major would politely disagree.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

Cherry13 said:



			John major would politely disagree.
		
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That's when the rules were changed...
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN01366


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			I wasnâ€™t being overly serious...
		
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You can never tell on this thread


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Hunt will be the only acceptable candidate.
Whatever happens, after the next general election, the Tories will not see power again for many years.
Time for a new 'sensible' party to kick in, appealing to the centre based Labour and Tory voters. [ie the vast majority.]

May rebuffed straight away on her EU trip, what a waste of time
		
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I think Corbyn is even worse than May! With him in charge I can't see Labour getting voted in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

ger147 said:



			She can NOT remain as PM if she is not the leader of the Tories. Conservative party rules do not allow this.
		
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Thanks for the correction. We need to mention this to the Tory MP speaking on R5 this morning who came out with it then .


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I've got a funny feeling that the Tories will vote in a Remainer type who will renegotiate the UK to follow everything the EU wants then everyone will be happy. Won't they?
		
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Yeah, there will only be a mere 17.4m who wouldn't be happy with that.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Thanks for the correction. We need to mention this to the Tory MP speaking on R5 this morning who came out with it then .
		
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I'm not responsible for what Tory MP's say, just pointing out their own party rules means it cannot happen, rules which were introduced in 1998. Maybe they've been too busy fighting amongst themselves to read them up till now...


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## Stuart_C (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yeah, there will only be a mere 17.4m who wouldn't be happy with that.
		
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Still a minority of the est 55m in the uk though.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Still a minority of the est 55m in the uk though.
		
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Then they should have got off their backsides and voted.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I'm not responsible for what Tory MP's say, just pointing out their own party rules means it cannot happen, rules which were introduced in 1998. Maybe they've been too busy fighting amongst themselves to read them up till now...
		
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I agree, I was not being sarky hence the smillie. R5 had Tory MP after Tory MP on this morning and one of them came out with this. I took him at his word, how foolish of me.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I agree, I was not being sarky hence the smillie. R5 had Tory MP after *Tory MP on this morning and one of them came out with this. I took him at his word, how foolish of me*.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ @ LT

I hope this is a reminder to never believe a word a Tory MP says ðŸ˜€


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## Stuart_C (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Then they should have got off their backsides and voted.
		
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Those that never voted can't be blamed for not Voting when  a leave campaign  was based on lies.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 12, 2018)

Well, I think she forgot her manners this morning...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ @ LT

I hope this is a reminder to never believe a word a Tory MP says ðŸ˜€
		
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I know, I'm ashamed of myself .


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Those that never voted can't be blamed for not Voting when  a leave campaign  was based on lies.
		
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So who is to blame for them not voting?
Both sides lied!


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## Beezerk (Dec 12, 2018)

BJ is bookies favourite to land the hot seat from what I gather.
Stay classy ðŸ¤”


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Then they should have got off their backsides and voted.
		
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but is was raining!


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 12, 2018)

I don't get the "we weren't informed" arguements. Wasn't there a big long debate(s) over all the original vote? 

And "Yeah, there will only be a mere 17.4m who wouldn't be happy with that." I also don't get why the MP's are all against it all (coming out) when the public voted out???? Very puzzling?????  and don't get me started on  the backstop. i'd of thought it would be awesome for NI. Brown envelopes flying everywhere.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			BJ is bookies favourite to land the hot seat from what I gather.
Stay classy ðŸ¤”
		
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His problem is that it is the MP's who whittle away the candidates until the final 2. He has alienated a lot of MP's and so, like last time, may not reach the last 2. If it was open to the membership then he probably would win but he may not get that far.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Those that never voted can't be blamed for not Voting when  a leave campaign  was based on lies.
		
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That is a totally pointless argument, in this day and age of press, internet, TV debates etc there was plenty of information available for people to make up their minds.

And if you do want to use that argument then what about all the rubbish being spouted by Remainers?

#ProjectFear


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Mayhem - but May Must Stay

And so - in a time of chaos initiated and exacerbated by Tory Party infighting over Europe - the Tory Party indulge themselves in further infighting.  Infighting based upon a delusion that a new PM *will *(not _may _- will) be able to negotiate a 'better' Withdrawal Agreement.

If there is one thing that May succeeded in doing yesterday, and that should now be clear to all - with not just the leading players in the EU telling us - but the Prime Ministers and leading ministers of many European countries also telling us - *there will no better Withdrawal Deal*.  There may be clarifications but there will absolutely be no further negotiations - what is on the table is all that is and will be on offer - there could never be an WA that did not have a backstop as now agreed.

And yet the ideological anti-EU deludes in the ERG and beyond of the Tory Party continue to maintain that a better WA can be had - that Prime Ministers of European countries will allow themselves to be made to look indecisive, weak and stupid by allowing the EU to cave into pressure from the UK - because it would suit the UK. 

They were deluded that we could leave the EU without there being chaos - they remain deluded.

For the sake of the country and as useless as she may be - May Must Stay.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mayhem - but May Must Stay

And so - in a time of chaos initiated and exacerbated by Tory Party infighting over Europe - the Tory Party indulge themselves in further infighting.  Infighting based upon a delusion that a new PM *will *(not _may _- will) be able to negotiate a 'better' Withdrawal Agreement.

If there is one thing that May succeeded in doing yesterday, and that should now be clear to all - with not just the leading players in the EU telling us - but the Prime Ministers and leading ministers of many European countries also telling us - *there will no better Withdrawal Deal*.  There may be clarifications but there will absolutely be no further negotiations - what is on the table is all that is and will be on offer - there could never be an WA that did not have a backstop as now agreed.

And yet the ideological anti-EU deludes in the ERG and beyond of the Tory Party continue to maintain that a better WA can be had - that Prime Ministers of European countries will allow themselves to be made to look indecisive, weak and stupid by allowing the EU to cave into pressure from the UK - because it would suit the UK.

They were deluded that we could leave the EU without there being chaos - they remain deluded.

For the sake of the country and as useless as she may be - May Must Stay.
		
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So as I read your post, you are saying it is OK for the EU leaders to get what they want but not for the UK to get what we want?
And you want to remain part of this organisation?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Or John Redwood. Now that would be a shock but if they, the Tories, want to honour the vote, the referendum, he would be the man to pick. Gove and boris are wimps
		
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We truly *would *be in a mess, and very weird place, if that guy was PM.

If there is such a thing as an 'anti-EU lunatic fringe' of the Tory Party then he is a fully paid up member of it.  You just have to listen to him discourse as he did in his most perfect 'swivel-eyed loon' (courtesy of David Cameron) way last night on Newsnight to know that.  Not a hope he'll become PM (I pray).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			So as I read your post, you are saying it is OK for the EU leaders to get what they want but not for the UK to get what we want?
And you want to remain part of this organisation?
		
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It is an unfortunate truth that it has always been in the gift of the EU to decide what they wish to give to the UK in respect of access to EU markets and continued membership of various EU-wide bodies and organisations.  And I think May has known this all along and it is that understanding that has determined her approach to the negotiations - that and pandering to the anti-immigration lobby in her party and the country (hence her strident _No Freedom of Movement _line throughout)

Many European leaders (not just the usual suspects of the EU governance) have made it 100% clear that there will be no further negotiation. End of.

That there are many in the Tory Party (and a rather pathetic Labour Party) still peddling the line to the electorate that there is a better deal to be negotiated than that May has put on the table is simply ignoring that fact - these people are deluding themselves and misleading the country.  Such as Merkel and various European Prime Ministers would not be so publicly saying what they are saying were it not true - they are not fools and they would not be made fools of or embarrassed by an EU climb down.  There will be no further negotiation.  The WA is agreed.  Indeed - the WA we have in place is the only deal we could have got once May had laid out her Red Lines.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



*That is a totally pointless argument, *in this day and age of press, internet, TV debates etc there was plenty of information available for people to make up their minds.

And if you do want to use that argument then what about all the rubbish being spouted by Remainers?

#ProjectFear
		
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How is it a pointless argument when its known that the leave campaign was based on lies? 

I've no doubt there was rubbish spouted by remainers. 

There was no real plan in place before the vote and there's no real credible plan in place after 2 years of planning and discussion!! 

It's an absolute mess.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			How is it a pointless argument when its known that the leave campaign was based on lies?

I've no doubt there was rubbish spouted by remainers.

There was no real plan in place before the vote and there's no real credible plan in place after 2 years of planning and discussion!!

It's an absolute mess.
		
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Yes it is a mess and I'm sure it could have been handled/negotiated better but for every lie told by a Brexiteer there was one told by a Remainer. BOTH sides lied to achieve their own aims, exactly the same as every General Election.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

This Strong and Stable is working out well then.....


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## User62651 (Dec 12, 2018)

Her No. 10 address earlier was just the same old stuff we've heard so often before. The delivery is too rehearsed and forced, never sounds natural or sincere. Hope she goes.

But if I was a betting man I'd wager she'll get more than 50% this evening and stay on, safe for another year (unless an opposition no confidence motion has legs),  she won't care if it's only a majority of 1, she'll just spout the same old soundbites.  Rubbish leader........ but a tough bird.

"...Dug in like an Alabama tick..."  _(Blain Cooper / Predator)_


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			His problem is that it is the MP's who whittle away the candidates until the final 2. He has alienated a lot of MP's and so, like last time, may not reach the last 2. If it was open to the membership then he probably would win but he may not get that far.
		
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Havenâ€™t they changed the Tory party rules were their next leader will be chosen by the membership.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Havenâ€™t they changed the Tory party rules were their next leader will be chosen by the membership.
		
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MP's whittle down the list to 2 candidates then the membership chose between the final 2.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2018)

Has Gavin Williamson thrown his hat in the ring yet? He'll get quite a lot of support if he does.. The rank (sp) and file Tories seem to like his approach...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 12, 2018)

ger147 said:



			MP's whittle down the list to 2 candidates then the membership chose between the final 2.
		
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Unless what happens like it happened with May, one of the 2 withdraw and the other wins and membership get no say.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yes it is a mess and I'm sure it could have been handled/negotiated better *but for every lie told by a Brexiteer there was one told by a Remainer*. BOTH sides lied to achieve their own aims, exactly the same as every General Election.
		
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Oooh, can we play Top Trumps???  

I'll go first. Category, '_Level of delusion'_.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oooh, can we play Top Trumps??? 

I'll go first. Category, '_Level of delusion'_.
View attachment 26095

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He's right, it* SHOULD* have been. Next?


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## Stuart_C (Dec 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yes it is a mess and I'm sure it could have been handled/negotiated better but for every lie told by a Brexiteer there was one told by a Remainer. BOTH sides lied to achieve their own aims, exactly the same as every General Election.
		
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Two wrongs dont make a right.


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Two wrongs dont make a right.
		
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but some still think it was just the leavers who lied


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

Serious concerns raised by the European Central Bank that a No Deal Brexit will seriously damage the individual EU country banks. Both France and Germany have trillions in U.K. investments and derivatives that have contract ends dates after Brexit day.

The EU is hurriedly putting together laws and financial instruments that will allow shifting of the contracts before Brexit day. However, concerns around breaches of contract could lead to court action.

The EU Commission has also said that any countryâ€™s banks that hasnâ€™t moved their investments by Brexit day will not receive any concessions or assistance from the ECB.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

..and as JO'B reflects - 'Taking Back Control' today means that if May is dumped, a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Conservative Party will most likely get to choose the next Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom.  Marvellous.  Take back Control and hand it over to a small group of unelected individuals 

Come on Theresa - stick one up em - see off the self-serving and deluded in your party.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Take back Control and hand it over to a small group of unelected individuals 

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Yes, I wonder who else that applies to ðŸ¤”


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## PieMan (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and as JO'B reflects - 'Taking Back Control' today means that if May is dumped, a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Conservative Party will most likely get to choose the next Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom.  Marvellous.  Take back Control and hand it over to a small group of unelected individuals 

Click to expand...

So? How did May become PM? How did Brown succeed Blair?


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and as JO'B reflects - 'Taking Back Control' today means that if May is dumped, a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Conservative Party will most likely get to choose the next Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom.  Marvellous.  Take back Control and hand it over to a small group of unelected individuals 

Come on Theresa - stick one up em - see off the self-serving and deluded in your party.
		
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I can't be the only one to find your post rather amusing and a tad ironic, bearing in mind you started this thread because you do not believe TM is up to the job of PM and have spent the majority of this thread saying so...


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I can't be the only one to find your post rather amusing and a tad ironic, bearing in mind you started this thread because you do not believe TM is up to the job of PM and have spent the majority of this thread saying so...
		
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"A tad ironic..." 

That's got to be the understatement of the year.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"A tad ironic..."

That's got to be the understatement of the year.
		
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I was trying to be polite...


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Serious concerns raised by the European Central Bank that a No Deal Brexit will seriously damage the individual EU country banks. Both France and Germany have trillions in U.K. investments and derivatives that have contract ends dates after Brexit day.

The EU is hurriedly putting together laws and financial instruments that will allow shifting of the contracts before Brexit day. However, concerns around breaches of contract could lead to court action.

The EU Commission has also said that any countryâ€™s banks that hasnâ€™t moved their investments by Brexit day will not receive any concessions or assistance from the ECB.
		
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Is this in the right thread?.... but if you analyse the ECB, instruments held in the UK is only one of their worries.... follow a chain if who owes who how much! Hence your other remark about "when to jump"


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2018)

I would be willing to bet that if a new pm removed the red line re movement of people, there would be a willingness from the EU to negotiate a better deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Usual suspects gather round and attack SILH for stating the obvious.  Yes I know that this is how we choose PMs - but at this point and in this chaos we hand the decision on who will lead us through this chaos to a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Tory party.  Now that's such a sensible way to choose someone to somehow try and unite the country.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Usual suspects gather round and attack SILH for stating the obvious.  Yes I know that this is how we choose PMs - but at this point and in this chaos we hand the decision on who will lead us through this chaos to a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Tory party.  Now that's such a sensible way to choose someone to somehow try and unite the country.
		
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It is the same for all parties, not just the Tory's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Indeed it is.  But the point is that this is not the time to do this - if she loses then 48 or so MPs will be handing the choice of leadership of the country through this critical period to a small and totally unrepresentative group of people.  

Go to it Theresa.  Put them in their place.


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  But the point is that this is not the time to do this - if she loses then 48 or so MPs will be handing the choice of leadership of the country through this critical period to a small and totally unrepresentative group of people. 

Go to it Theresa.  Put them in their place.
		
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So you now think she is up to the job and want to rescind everything you have said about her inability to do the job of PM over the last 2 years?

At least have the courage and integrity to stick to your convictions that she is not fit for the job of PM...


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## Junior (Dec 12, 2018)

The more this goes on, the more I feel for May.  Her job is stupidly hard and she is in a complete no win situation.   ALL the politicians are putting their own power hungry agenda's first and they are all an utter shambles.


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## PieMan (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Usual suspects gather round and attack SILH for stating the obvious.  Yes I know that this is how we choose PMs - but at this point and in this chaos we hand the decision on who will lead us through this chaos to a small group of people who have paid to be members of the Tory party.  Now that's such a sensible way to choose someone to somehow try and unite the country.
		
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But look on the bright side, if Teresa May is indeed ousted as PM, the Tory party would've delivered the whole point of this thread!!

And then you'll be able to start another one the moment the new PM is appointed entitled '[Name] - not up the job of PM?'!!

Happy Days for you - will keep your post count ticking over quite nicely!


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## Reemul (Dec 12, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oooh, can we play Top Trumps???

I'll go first. Category, '_Level of delusion'_.
View attachment 26095

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See this just reinforces your lack of understanding.

We are not negotiating a TRADE DEAL, it's just the withdrawal terms. Once that is or is not done actually agreeing the trade deal itself with the EU should be pretty simple as we already trade with each other.

This is the problem the average joe doesn't understand one side of it or the other. They believe what they read in The Sun, Mirror, Mail, Guardian etc, post it online on forums and social media and other idiots believe it too.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  But the point is that this is not the time to do this - if she loses then 48 or so MPs will be handing the choice of leadership of the country through this critical period to a small and totally unrepresentative group of people. 

Go to it Theresa.  Put them in their place.
		
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If she loses it will be because more than half the Tory MPs have voted against her. The 48 or so will have enabled the decision but it needs far more than 48 to get rid of her.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

Junior said:



			The more this goes on, the more I feel for May.  Her job is stupidly hard and she is in a complete no win situation.   *ALL the politicians are putting their own power hungry agenda's first and they are all an utter shambles*.
		
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Seems to be a reoccurring theme a lot nowadays in politics.  I can't help thinking there are some good eggs who genuinely are in it for the good of their constituents.  Our local Labour MP used to be like that, he'd never get a cabinet job in a month of Sundays but he was great for the people he represented.  Trouble is those types are never ruthless/ambitious/amoral/desperate enough to climb the greasy pole.  I think our current Labour MP is a Corbyn acolyte and has lost a good share of the vote.


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  But the point is that this is not the time to do this - if she loses then 48 or so MPs will be handing the choice of leadership of the country through this critical period to a small and totally unrepresentative group of people. 

Go to it Theresa.  Put them in their place.
		
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I agree that the timing is far from ideal. In fact itâ€™s a crazy time to do it....but hindsight never makes a mistake. Itâ€™s patently obvious she doesnâ€™t represent that vast majority of Parliament, and it would appear her own party.

Equally, I think your â€œunrepresentativeâ€ comment is a bit shortsighted. Your MP, Jeremy Hunt, has never represented me, or the constituents of any seat apart from yours. Does that mean he shouldnâ€™t be involved in this issue, or any issue apart from what happens where you are?


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2018)

It looks like she will get the vote to stay anyway, so it is all a bit pointless.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

Our government is a complete embarrassment to the world , they spend more time squabbling with each other and forget that they are there to look after the country for us - they have had two years to get all this sorted and here we are they are still fighting between themselves over who should be leader.

The lot should be gotten rid off and let the Queen run the country - at least she would try and do it in the best interests of the population and not of herself 

They are a complete joke


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I agree that the timing is far from ideal. In fact itâ€™s a crazy time to do it....but hindsight never makes a mistake. *Itâ€™s patently obvious she doesnâ€™t represent that vast majority of Parliament, and it would appear her own party.*

Equally, I think your â€œunrepresentativeâ€ comment is a bit shortsighted. Your MP, Jeremy Hunt, has never represented me, or the constituents of any seat apart from yours. Does that mean he shouldnâ€™t be involved in this issue, or any issue apart from what happens where you are?
		
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At this current point in time who the hell does?  On either side?  I suppose at least in the US where they have lurched to opposite sides of the political spectrum they are mostly consistent in their views in each party.  Our lot can't even mange that so you have no idea what the party view is.  I mean the absolute state of these two...   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072809019591548928


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Junior said:



			The more this goes on, the more I feel for May.  Her job is stupidly hard and she is in a complete no win situation.   ALL the politicians are putting their own power hungry agenda's first and they are all an utter shambles.
		
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I would not feel sorry for a PM who tried to by pass and then misled Parliament over the most crucial decision the UK has made in three generations.


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## Junior (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would not feel sorry for a PM who tried to by pass and then misled Parliament over the most crucial decision the UK has made in three generations.
		
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My angle was that whichever of our wonderful political parties/politicians would have done this job, they would have failed.   Yet everyone pounces on her because they have their own political agendas to persue.  Don't for one minute think that any of them have our best interests at heart.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

Junior said:



			My angle was that whichever of our wonderful political parties/politicians would have done this job, they would have failed.   Yet everyone pounces on her because they have their own political agendas to persue.  Don't for one minute think that any of them have our best interests at heart.
		
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Think she had an almost impossible task to begin with, that became utterly impossible once she held a snap election, tried to steamroller Brexit though without any parliamentary scrutiny at the start, she announced her arguably ill conceived red lines and invoked article 50 too early.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072898946169794561
Boomshanka....


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072094681226465280


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072094681226465280

Click to expand...


That's hilarious, took me a minute to see the minus


Strong support in Scotland for Ross Thomson as Tory leader.
Unfortunately for him not from the Tory party


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			If she loses it will be because more than half the Tory MPs have voted against her. The 48 or so will have enabled the decision but it needs far more than 48 to get rid of her.
		
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Yes indeed.  And is it not absurd that, as a result of the action of these who submitted the letters and triggered the process, we would end up with a small group of unelected and unrepresentative individuals choosing the person to lead our country in this period of national and constitutional crisis.  But it does not surprise me that my pointing this out is dismissed with a disdainful and scornful wave...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2018)

Stolen from twitter

_Wait, Iâ€™m confused. The Tory party made her leader. The British people made her PM.  Are they now saying they know better than the will of the people?  Are they saying party members can change their minds?_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I agree that the timing is far from ideal. In fact itâ€™s a crazy time to do it....but hindsight never makes a mistake. Itâ€™s patently obvious she doesnâ€™t represent that vast majority of Parliament, and it would appear her own party.

Equally, I think your â€œunrepresentativeâ€ comment is a bit shortsighted. Your MP, Jeremy Hunt, has never represented me, or the constituents of any seat apart from yours. Does that mean he shouldnâ€™t be involved in this issue, or any issue apart from what happens where you are?
		
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The unrepresentative and unelected are the members of the Tory Party.  That they are unelected is obvious - and being that small part of the electorate and conservative voters who think it worthwhile paying their subs to be members of the Tory Party, they are also by definition likely to be unrepresentative of conservative voters - never mind the electorate as a whole.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stolen from twitter

_Wait, Iâ€™m confused. The Tory party made her leader. The British people made her PM.  Are they now saying they know better than the will of the people?  Are they saying party members can change their minds?_

Click to expand...

Ah - they will say - the Tory Party members never got to vote her leader - because the rest ran away...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

The SNP have more party members than the UK Tories, something very far wrong with UKOK politics.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP have more party members than the UK Tories, something very far wrong with UKOK politics.
		
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What exactly is a â€œparty member â€œ itâ€™s not really relevant is it 

And what the heck is UKOK ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly is a â€œparty member â€œ itâ€™s not really relevant is it

And what the heck is UKOK ?
		
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A party members is a person who is a member of a political party.
UKOK are people who still think that the Union has any prevelense in a modern world.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A party members is a person who is a member of a political party.
		
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And ? Does it mean anything more than that ? Does it make their vote anything more significant- it has no real relevance to anything does it at the end of the day 




			UKOK are people who still think that the Union has any prevelense in a modern world.
		
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So itâ€™s another childish silly saying created by someone clearly bitter about the UK being one


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## PieMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UKOK are people who still think that the Union has any prevelense in a modern world.
		
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I spent the whole of last week in Geneva at the WTO. Believe me enough people there - including representatives from other EU member states - still do.

Another idiotic comment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So itâ€™s another childish silly saying created by someone clearly bitter about the UK being one
		
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Being one what


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Being one what

Click to expand...

Are those chips on each shoulder weighing down heavy - I donâ€™t think someone could be so bitter as you 

One nation Doon as you well know 

The UK is United as one hence the Name â€œUnitedâ€ Kingdom


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Two wrongs dont make a right.
		
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Absolutely, so is the remain wrong better than the leave wrong.


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## drdel (Dec 12, 2018)

PieMan said:



			I spent the whole of last week in Geneva at the WTO. Believe me enough people there - including representatives from other EU member states - still do.

Another idiotic comment.
		
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You forget that there are many who are determined to put down the UK despite the fact they enjoy the considerable benefits of being British and envied by many other nations.


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The unrepresentative and unelected are the members of the Tory Party.  That they are unelected is obvious - and being that small part of the electorate and conservative voters who think it worthwhile paying their subs to be members of the Tory Party, they are also by definition likely to be unrepresentative of conservative voters - never mind the electorate as a whole.
		
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If you are that concerned, why not join the Tory party, the Labour Party, the LibDems and the SNP. You're scratching at something that isn't worth a second glance.


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## Imurg (Dec 12, 2018)

Well that was a complete waste of time and money.....


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## chrisd (Dec 12, 2018)

Well clearly she IS up to the job as they have said she is ðŸ˜


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## ger147 (Dec 12, 2018)

117 is a very big number of MP's who voted against her tonight.  If they also vote against her deal we are still no further forward...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Suggests they are not really her type of Tory .. perhaps they should form another party? Oh wait a minute if that happens would it or could become a coalition? 
Itâ€™s time the toryâ€™s had a purge, get back to one united party ideal ... actually labour should do the same .. might mean the peopleâ€™s views are captured better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If you are that concerned, why not join the Tory party, the Labour Party, the LibDems and the SNP. You're scratching at something that isn't worth a second glance.
		
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I'm not in the slightest bit bothered about the process the Tory Party have in place to elect their party leader - none of my business and good luck to them.

But I was struck by the totally inappropriate timing of what the Johnson and the ERG instigated and the absurdity of what the outcome could have been, given where we are and the utterly crucial role of the PM trying to get an agreement that might have even the vaguest of hopes of starting to heal the terrible wounds and division splitting the country top to bottom.

And if things had gone the way of the anti-May brigade we could have ended up with an electorate of 124,000 choosing such as Rees-Mogg or Johnson as PM - and IMO that would almost certainly have exacerbated the situation, and still would were it to happen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

It is suggested that whilst Theresa May has said that she would not lead the Tory Party into the next General Election she then added - in 2022.  But that statement does not exclude her from leading the party into any snap election that she might calls between now and then.  In any case - not leading the Tories into a 2022 election is a long time from now - and not immediately after 29th March 2019.


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is suggested that whilst Theresa May has said that she would not lead the Tory Party into the next General Election she then added - in 2022.  But that statement does not exclude her from leading the party into any snap election that she might calls between now and then.  In any case - not leading the Tories into a 2022 election is a long time from now - and not immediately after 29th March 2019.
		
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1) Who is suggesting it?
2) She also said she wouldn't call a snap general election.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is suggested that whilst Theresa May has said that she would not lead the Tory Party into the next General Election she then added - in 2022.  But that statement does not exclude her from leading the party into any snap election that she might calls between now and then.  In any case - not leading the Tories into a 2022 election is a long time from now - and not immediately after 29th March 2019.
		
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I think that would be outrage within the party if she tried that one. She bought off her MP's by stating she would not stand. If she used semantics to get out of that I think she would have cabinet resignations en masse as it would shatter her credibility further, what is left of it. If the voters see the party in fighting during an election they will desert them in droves.

I am amazed she stated she would resign. History shows that power deserts you the minute that happens. She has to give the new leader time to bed in so she will constantly be asked when it will happen. She must be the lamest of all lame duck PM's.


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2018)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46547832


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

I will have missed any clarifications she might have made today that disambiguated what she said last night...maybe all is clear now - and the next GE is not specific to 2022.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

I'm guessing 2022 came up as that is theoretically the next election date based on the 5 year term.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm guessing 2022 came up as that is theoretically the next election date based on the 5 year term.
		
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The latest report I have (just) heard is still reporting specific to 2022.  Maybe she has said she won't call a snap GE - but if late January / early February things are still unresolved and the government falls or decides there is no other way out - then we might well *have *to have a snap GE and May will be Tory Party leader.  Clearly today she'll not even be contemplating such a possibility, and so her 2022 commitment applies and her snap GE pledge is - at the moment - 100% valid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

ger147 said:



BBC News - Brexit: Theresa May won't lead Conservatives into next election http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46547832

Click to expand...

link not working...


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			link not working...
		
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I'm sure you can find your way to the BBC News website without a chaperone...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

Has May categorically said she will not fight another general election.  I frankly don't care if she does or doesn't - but I suspect that she will - and it might well be called late January early February...once her deal is rejected by the HoC and she is still Prime Minister and Leader of the Conservative Party.

And not surprisingly it sounds like she has got nowhere yesterday...in fact her _Brexit Means Brexit_ meaningless mantra comes back to bite her when the EU27 leaders ask her 'just what do you want?' because _Brexit Means Brexit _means nothing until it is defined and written down.  And if the Lancaster House speech is it - then the EU and the EU27 leaders will just shrug and tell her - simply was never possible - and we told you and you knew it from the very start. 

But gamely she ploughs on as if there is something out there that will satisfy Johnson and the ERGists if only she can get her hands on it without the horn spearing her.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Has May categorically said she will not fight another general election.  I frankly don't care if she does or doesn't - but I suspect that she will - and it might well be called late January early February...once her deal is rejected by the HoC and she is still Prime Minister and Leader of the Conservative Party.
		
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Yes she has, she is on film saying so and I posted a link for you to the BBC News website with the footage of her saying exactly that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Yes she has, she is on film saying so and I posted a link for you to the BBC News website with the footage of her saying exactly that.
		
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Quote (my bold): _The next General Election is in *2022 *and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into *that *General Election._


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quote (my bold): _The next General Election is in *2022 *and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into *that *General Election._

Click to expand...

And what did she say immediately before that?


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Here's a clue for you...
_
Mrs May said: "I've said that in my heart I would love to be able to lead the Conservative Party into the next general election but I think it is right that the party feels that they would prefer to go into that election with another leader."_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Here's a clue for you...

_Mrs May said: "I've said that in my heart I would love to be able to lead the Conservative Party into the next general election but I think it is right that the party feels that they would prefer to go into that election with another leader."_

Click to expand...

yes - and then she stated _The next General Election is in *2022 *and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into *that *General Election._

And we both know that that ain't necessarily so.  What happens if she feels that she needs to call a GE in February?  Does she stand down immediately and the Tories have a leadership contest immediately prior to a General Election?

I frankly don't care.  But I was interested in her choice of words.  Is she trying to give herself a little wriggle room?


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes - and then she stated _The next General Election is in *2022 *and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into *that *General Election._

And we both know that that ain't necessarily so.  What happens if she feels that she needs to call a GE in February?  Does she stand down immediately and the Tories have a leadership contest immediately prior to a General Election?

I frankly don't care.  But I was interested in her choice of words.  Is she trying to give herself a little wriggle room?
		
Click to expand...

No - the first statement was in answer to a question "will she lead the Tories into another GE." The 2nd statement was in reply to a question about would she stand down on 29th March. But of course you already know that if you've watched the footage.

Not exactly sure what exactly you're trying to prove. You asked a question, I kindly answered for you, including pointing you at the video where the woman in question said she would not lead the Tories into the next GE.

So to re-iterate, in answer to your original question, yes TM did state she would not lead the Tories into the next GE.


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## Reemul (Dec 14, 2018)

And yet if a GE is called early next year I reckon she will want to run. She will say I have a mandate for the next year by winning the confidence vote so there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			No - the first statement was in answer to a question "will she lead the Tories into another GE." The 2nd statement was in reply to a question about would she stand down on 29th March. But of course you already know that if you've watched the footage.

Not exactly sure what exactly you're trying to prove. You asked a question, I kindly answered for you, including pointing you at the video where the woman in question said she would not lead the Tories into the next GE.

So to re-iterate, in answer to your original question, yes TM did state she would not lead the Tories into the next GE.
		
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I am not trying to prove anything.  Taking your advice I have listened again to the video, and to me it is quite clear that she avoided answering the question about whether she would leave immediately after the 29th March. 

May was asked:

_Does that mean you will leave immediately after Brexit - do you have a date in mind._

And May answered:

_No ...people try to talk about dates - what I am clear about is that the next General Election is in 2022 and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into that General Election._


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not trying to prove anything.  Taking your advice I have listened again to the video, and to me it is quite clear that she avoided answering the question about whether she would leave immediately after the 29th March.

May was asked:

_Does that mean you will leave immediately after Brexit - do you have a date in mind._

And May answered:

_No ...people try to talk about dates - what I am clear about is that the next General Election is in 2022 and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into that General Election._

Click to expand...

Of course she avoided answering that question, as would absolutely every PM in that situation. Do you seriously think she would announce the date of her resignation as PM to a BBC News reporter while at an EU summit trying to sort out Brexit?

But that does NOT change the fact that she stated she would not lead the Conservative party into the next general election, which was the question you asked and I answered.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Of course she avoided answering that question, as would absolutely every PM in that situation. Do you seriously think she would announce the date of her resignation as PM to a BBC News reporter while at an EU summit trying to sort out Brexit?

But that does NOT change the fact that she stated she would not lead the Conservative party into the next general election, which was the question you asked and I answered.
		
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Even common courtesy would suggest she'll tell her party first. And there's also the issue that as soon as she gives a date the Tory hopefuls will switch to serious campaigning, and the in-fighting and bargaining will ramp up.


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not trying to prove anything.  Taking your advice I have listened again to the video, and to me it is quite clear that she avoided answering the question about whether she would leave immediately after the 29th March.

May was asked:

_Does that mean you will leave immediately after Brexit - do you have a date in mind._

And May answered:

_No ...people try to talk about dates - what I am clear about is that the next General Election is in 2022 and I think it is right that a new party leader takes us into that General Election._

Click to expand...

On this precise point I agree with SILH. She clearly made reference in the sentence to "that" election in 2022. If there was a GE forced by Parliament before 2022 she would feel there was unfinished business and, IMO, would wish to stay on.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

drdel said:



			On this precise point I agree with SILH. She clearly made reference in the sentence to "that" election in 2022. If there was a GE forced by Parliament before 2022 she would feel there was unfinished business and, IMO, would wish to stay on.
		
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And she clearly made reference to the NEXT general election in the statement before when she was confirming she wouldn't lead the Tories into the next GE without any reference to 2022.

Watch the video...


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

drdel said:



			On this precise point I agree with SILH. She clearly made reference in the sentence to "that" election in 2022. If there was a GE forced by Parliament before 2022 she would feel there was unfinished business and, IMO, would wish to stay on.
		
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"She's behind you!" Is it panto season? 

The Tories are smart enough to know they won't win the next election if she's in the chair. If a no confidence vote is called in the House, which led to a snap election I expect the Tories will have a swift change of leader.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"She's behind you!" Is it panto season?

The Tories are smart enough to know they won't win the next election if she's in the chair. If a no confidence vote is called in the House, which led to a snap election I expect the Tories will have a swift change of leader.
		
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It's what you get for trying to post facts, you know how unpopular they are round here...

When it comes to opinions, I haven't the foggiest idea what TM will actually do but there is no doubt she stated for the BBC cameras when asked that she will not lead the Tories into the next general election.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2018)

She's on borrowed time and will be gone soon.  As soon as someone announces they won't be around to fight the next election they are history.  She will probably stay on during the Brexit omnishambes of the next 3 months as no one in their right mind will want to take over during that period. But after that she'll be gone no matter what the outcome is.

Her legacy will be of a flawed but tenacious fighter in difficult political times against the divisive factions in the tory party.  She made some silly mistakes when  it came to the timing of key events in the Brexit process, but her main enemy was not the EU but the Tory party itself. And she'll go down as yet another tory leader brought down by the issue of Europe.


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## larmen (Dec 14, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s time the toryâ€™s had a purge, get back to one united party ideal ... actually labour should do the same .. might mean the peopleâ€™s views are captured better.
		
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Thats my issue with UK politics.

You have 2 â€˜semi finalsâ€™ where right wing conservatives are edging out centre leaning conservatives, and you have left wing labour which edges out centre leaning labour.
In the â€˜finalâ€™ there is a vote left versus right, and I think a lot of people would just like the middle but there is no option.

A 3rd party that wasnâ€™t the minority party in a torry government that increased the student fees, or that isnâ€™t championed by Blair might be needed.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2018)

larmen said:



			Thats my issue with UK politics.

You have 2 â€˜semi finalsâ€™ where right wing conservatives are edging out centre leaning conservatives, and you have left wing labour which edges out centre leaning labour.
In the â€˜finalâ€™ there is a vote left versus right, and I think a lot of people would just like the middle but there is no option.

A 3rd party that wasnâ€™t the minority party in a torry government that increased the student fees, or that isnâ€™t championed by Blair might be needed.
		
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Proportional representation?  May well end up with more minority governments but it would ensure the increasingly disparate views are represented.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 15, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Proportional representation?  May well end up with more minority governments but it would ensure the increasingly disparate views are represented.
		
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Yes but that would mean Westminster moving towards a more modern representative democratic UK society, Labour and Tories parties/MP's would never vote for that. They like the two horse gravy train race.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 15, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Proportional representation?  May well end up with more minority governments but it would ensure the increasingly disparate views are represented.
		
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Haven't we already had our 'once in a lifetime' vote on that?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Haven't we already had our 'once in a lifetime' vote on that?
		
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Yes, but it was at least 2 years ago so that means we are due another .  Lifetimes are very short now don't you know.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, but it was at least 2 years ago so that means we are due another .  Lifetimes are very short now don't you know.
		
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For butterflies I think in some cases itâ€™s only a day ....bit like some warranties


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## larmen (Dec 15, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Haven't we already had our 'once in a lifetime' vote on that?
		
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Wasn't that referendum about 1st past the post versus single transferable vote?

Anyway, my problem is not the voting system, but that because parties go to the extreme end the people that like middle don't have an option to vote for.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2018)

larmen said:



			Wasn't that referendum about 1st past the post versus single transferable vote?

Anyway, my problem is not the voting system, but that because parties go to the extreme end the people that like middle don't have an option to vote for.
		
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Lib Dems are not fairing well with that one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2018)

What on earth is going on with the Prime Minister?  This is madness (Corbyn running her very close at the moment).  Could also be posted in the _Brexit - The Musical_ thread.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 18, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Proportional representation?  May well end up with more minority governments but it would ensure the increasingly disparate views are represented.
		
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We have PR in Scotland, seems to work very well, a fair balance of support for the political parties that the public voted for.
It is certainly miles better than that two party yahh boo rubbish at Westminster. A system that is so broken it has brought us to where we are today.

In Scotland there are some drawbacks in that the quality of some of the unelected opposition list members, some can be truly awful.
For example the Tories have an absolutely clueless leading 'spokesmen' who actually finished FOURTH in his constituency vote, behind the Greens, Lib Dems, Labour and SNP. They also have a leading 'front bencher' who has NEVER stood for election to win a public vote but has remained as a list MSP for over 10 years.
Labour generally list promote union leader types who are still stuck in the 1970's


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We have PR in Scotland, seems to work ok, certainly miles better than that two party yahh boo rubbish at Westminster.

There are some drawbacks in that the quality of some of the opposition list members can be truly awful.
The Tories have an absolutely clueless leading 'spokesmen' who actually finished FOURTH in his constituency vote. Behind the Greens, Lib Dems, Labour and SNP
		
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That system enabled Neil Hamilton to be elected to the Welsh Assembly, shudders . No system is perfect. It is about which is the least worse option.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What on earth is going on with the Prime Minister?  This is madness (Corbyn running her very close at the moment).  Could also be posted in the _Brexit - The Musical_ thread.







Click to expand...

I don't think he is running her very close at the moment. I think he's bottled it in the last week. May pulling the vote was disgraceful, and hugely disrespectful to every single MP of all flavours. John Berscow made it very clear what he thought of the PM pulling the vote. That was a huge slap down, and Corbyn hasn't made the best of it.

I do wonder if he doesn't want to do anything that supports May's position n Brexit for 2 reasons. 1) Obviously he wants Labour in power, but equally 2) he has always been against the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants No Deal. Having May stay in power but without a Deal plays into his hands.


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think he is running her very close at the moment. I think he's bottled it in the last week. May pulling the vote was disgraceful, and hugely disrespectful to every single MP of all flavours. John Berscow made it very clear what he thought of the PM pulling the vote. That was a huge slap down, and Corbyn hasn't made the best of it.

I do wonder if he doesn't want to do anything that supports May's position n Brexit for 2 reasons. 1) Obviously he wants Labour in power, but equally 2) he has always been against the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants No Deal. Having May stay in power but without a Deal plays into his hands.
		
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I actually think that pulling the vote was a good tactic: faced with the evidence of losing the vote. It bought time with the EU and with Cabinet.

I agree with your points 1 and 2.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2018)

drdel said:



			I actually think that pulling the vote was a good tactic: faced with the evidence of losing the vote. It bought time with the EU and with Cabinet.

I agree with your points 1 and 2.
		
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And May persists with the line that she'll come back to parliament on 7th January 2019 with a clarified and better agreement with the EU.  And this is despite everything that everyone to do with the EU negotiations and the leading ministers of the EU27 is saying.  Yet still she persists.  What is it they say about folks who repeatedly do the same thing and expect a different outcome?  Well.  You never know.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And May persists with the line that she'll come back to parliament on 7th January 2019 with a clarified and better agreement with the EU.  And this is despite everything that everyone to do with the EU negotiations and the leading ministers of the EU27 is saying.  Yet still she persists.  What is it they say about folks who repeatedly do the same thing and expect a different outcome?  Well.  You never know.
		
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The good thing is whatever she brings to Parliament on the 7th Jan is only advisory, not binding on the UK unless its accepted. The 7th Jan will reveal whether or not she's being circumspect with the truth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2018)

Her smiles when under attack at PMQs today at times looked rather forced, rather fretful and not very convincing.

An observation that my wife made last night when the news showed May making a statement from maybe a year or so ago - is that, compared with then, Mrs May has not aged well...she is not looking great...


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## dewsweeper (Dec 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her smiles when under attack at PMQs today at times looked rather forced, rather fretful and not very convincing.

An observation that my wife made last night when the news showed May making a statement from maybe a year or so ago - is that, compared with then, Mrs May has not aged well...she is not looking great...
		
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How has your wife aged?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2019)

Well...

Though she'll no doubt survive the vote of confidence in her government tomorrow.

Not sure that indicates that she's up to the job - not after her primary piece of legislation - almost her raison d'etre as PM - has been defeated by 230 votes with 118 Tory MPs voting against their party leader and PM.

And bizarrely with such a defeat she'll feel she has a massive mandate t go back to the EU to ask/demand a better deal - though Hancock seemed unable to tell us what she'd have to ask for to get a better result next time around.

Interesting times...


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## chrisd (Jan 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And bizarrely with such a defeat she'll feel she has a massive mandate t go back to the EU to ask/demand a better deal 

Interesting times...
		
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Perversely that is absolutely correct, the EU now has to renegotiate if they want a deal as a few tweeks will not get this deal through Parliament, in many ways it strengthens her hand should she have the balls to see it through.


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

Sorry, couldn't resist...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085276716317200384


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well...

Though she'll no doubt survive the vote of confidence in her government tomorrow.

Not sure that indicates that she's up to the job - not after her primary piece of legislation - almost her raison d'etre as PM - has been defeated by 230 votes with 118 Tory MPs voting against their party leader and PM.

And bizarrely with such a defeat she'll feel she has a massive mandate t go back to the EU to ask/demand a better deal - though Hancock seemed unable to tell us what she'd have to ask for to get a better result next time around.

Interesting times...
		
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Does the fact that both Leave and Remain have rejected her deal make her position stronger or weaker? And more importantly what does she go back to the EU with? Does she go back and try to renegotiate based on what Leave voters disliked about her deal or on what Remain voters disliked about her deal?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does the fact that both Leave and Remain have rejected her deal make her position stronger or weaker? And more importantly what does she go back to the EU with?* Does she go back and try to renegotiate based on what Leave voters disliked about her deal or on what Remain voters disliked about her deal?*

Click to expand...

And there lies the impossible conundrum that is virtually unsolvable. And the only way she will get anything through is by one side fearing that the other side could have most of their needs met that they vote for the compromise.  So essentially it is politics of fear at its worst.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

With such a slim majority, maybe she needs 2 Brexit ministers. One from the Tories and one nominated by the leader of the opposition.


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## Imurg (Jan 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does the fact that both Leave and Remain have rejected her deal make her position stronger or weaker? And more importantly what does she go back to the EU with? Does she go back and try to renegotiate based on what Leave voters disliked about her deal or on what Remain voters disliked about her deal?
		
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In a way, she goes back to the EU with the "spectre" of No Deal looming over them.
There's not many in the EU saying " No Deal? Bring it on"
If the EU doesn't want us to leave without a deal they they have to start offering.
General consensus is that No Deal, for us,  would hurt for a while but things will steady in time - is that right?
What will No Deal do to the rest of the EU..?
As none of them seem to want that, it seems it may hurt them more.....
So...how deep are their pockets...?


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

Imurg said:



			In a way, she goes back to the EU with the "spectre" of No Deal looming over them.
There's not many in the EU saying " No Deal? Bring it on"
If the EU doesn't want us to leave without a deal they they have to start offering.
General consensus is that No Deal, for us,  would hurt for a while but things will steady in time - is that right?
What will No Deal do to the rest of the EU..?
As none of them seem to want that, it seems it may hurt them more.....
So...how deep are their pockets...?
		
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How deep are their pockets when they haven't received the Â£39bn + Â£9bn a year?


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## Imurg (Jan 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How deep are their pockets when they haven't received the Â£39bn + Â£9bn a year?
		
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Maybe they have wide sleeves.....


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Imurg said:



			In a way, she goes back to the EU with the "spectre" of No Deal looming over them.
There's not many in the EU saying " No Deal? Bring it on"
If the EU doesn't want us to leave without a deal they they have to start offering.
*General consensus is that No Deal, for us,  would hurt for a while but things will steady in time - is that right?*
What will No Deal do to the rest of the EU..?
As none of them seem to want that, it seems it may hurt them more.....
So...how deep are their pockets...?
		
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I'd argue that is a bit of a all encompassing statement.  Type it into google and you get a variety of links, this being the 1st https://www.politico.eu/article/how-no-deal-brexit-would-hit-uk-economy/  Plus there is the governments forecasts that came out recently that was not pretty. And not sure what it would say about us as a trusted trading partner to any future partners if we can't negotiate a deal.  And you can add the potential trouble in Ireland to that if a hard border came into force.  I'd take relative peace in Ireland if it meant staying in the EU every day of the week.

But they are all forecasts and people can take them how they want, often depending on their view of Brexit.  But the statement that a no deal would hurt the EU more is very questionable I would say. Essentially we will both be hurt and to use an analogy, claiming you have only lost one leg as a victory if another person has lost 2 is not the best outcome.  We may lose 2 and them 1 or vice versa, but either is not great and I'd argue not a great way of progressing as a society.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 16, 2019)

Mrs May, apparently, has no plan B, and still thinks hers is the best option, so will not bother with negotiations and just put her deal forward again. (Nick thingy m'blob).


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Mrs May, apparently, has no plan B, and still thinks hers is the best option, so will not bother with negotiations and just put her deal forward again. *(Nick thingy m'blob*).
		
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Faldo, Cage, Nolte, Offerman???  Mind you, if Ron Swanson did say that then I'd believe it every day of the week.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Faldo, Cage, Nolte, Offerman???  Mind you, if Ron Swanson did say that then I'd believe it every day of the week.
		
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Ron Swanson for PM, . That's a man I could vote for


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## Mudball (Mar 6, 2019)

Sorry to dig this out..  In the past Maybot has got some sympathies from me on the Brexit poisonous chalice she inherited.  But increasingly i see her being more and more incompetent.  As one of them mentioned, she has an 'immigrant problem'.  
But yesterday, listening to her on knife crime was atrocious.  To claim that reduction in police numbers is nothing to do with rise in knife crime is atrocious.  While I understand 'correlation does not mean causality' in statistics, but this one is past being bleeding obvious.   
As she always does, very good to see her do a U-turn and suddenly 'listened to the people' after the media and social media gave her a lot of grief.    

Currently she is (just) sitting above Chris Grayling in my book of competence


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## drdel (Mar 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Sorry to dig this out..  In the past Maybot has got some sympathies from me on the Brexit poisonous chalice she inherited.  But increasingly i see her being more and more incompetent.  As one of them mentioned, she has an 'immigrant problem'. 
But yesterday, listening to her on knife crime was atrocious.  To claim that reduction in police numbers is nothing to do with rise in knife crime is atrocious.  While I understand 'correlation does not mean causality' in statistics, but this one is past being bleeding obvious.  
As she always does, very good to see her do a U-turn and suddenly 'listened to the people' after the media and social media gave her a lot of grief.   

Currently she is (just) sitting above Chris Grayling in my book of competence
		
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Not sure the numbers of cops are correlated to the RISE in knife crime; probably influences the catching/conviction rate.

IMO its more related to a society with drug money dragging youngster into gangs and the general culture of disrespect: which may be related to cops on the street but I'm not sure its that simple.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Sorry to dig this out..  In the past Maybot has got some sympathies from me on the Brexit poisonous chalice she inherited.  But increasingly i see her being more and more incompetent.  As one of them mentioned, she has an 'immigrant problem'.
But yesterday, listening to her on knife crime was atrocious.  To claim that reduction in police numbers is nothing to do with rise in knife crime is atrocious.  While I understand 'correlation does not mean causality' in statistics, but this one is past being bleeding obvious.
As she always does, very good to see her do a U-turn and suddenly 'listened to the people' after the media and social media gave her a lot of grief. 

Currently she is (just) sitting above Chris Grayling in my book of competence
		
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Oh bless ya Muddy for bringing this up coz you have set me off on a rant. Took daughter and a  workmate to Sheffield today on a liquid bonding session. Folk on here know what daughter does as employment. Anyway i asked her mate his thoughts on knife crime, middle class druggies, less bobbies on the beat etc etc. He said â€œ missis may if on fire would not be extinguished by the bladder off a bobbyâ€ she as home secretary slashed bobbies numbers. So for her to say the reduction in bobbies has helped to contribute to increased violent crime makes her look like a grade one twat. Which she is. Thank god she has nowt big to deal with. ðŸ¤”


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Sorry to dig this out..  In the past Maybot has got some sympathies from me on the Brexit poisonous chalice she inherited.  But increasingly i see her being more and more incompetent.  As one of them mentioned, she has an 'immigrant problem'.
But yesterday, listening to her on knife crime was atrocious.  To claim that reduction in police numbers is nothing to do with rise in knife crime is atrocious.  While I understand 'correlation does not mean causality' in statistics, but this one is past being bleeding obvious.
As she always does, very good to see her do a U-turn and suddenly 'listened to the people' after the media and social media gave her a lot of grief.

Currently she is (just) sitting above Chris Grayling in my book of competence
		
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She took/was handed a poisoned chalice and since then has not even met the extremely low expectations I had of her and her government.  Still, 3 weeks to go so plenty of time to score a last minute extra time winner


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## drdel (Mar 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Oh bless ya Muddy for bringing this up coz you have set me off on a rant. Took daughter and a  workmate to Sheffield today on a liquid bonding session. Folk on here know what daughter does as employment. Anyway i asked her mate his thoughts on knife crime, middle class druggies, less bobbies on the beat etc etc. He said â€œ missis may if on fire would not be extinguished by the bladder off a bobbyâ€ she as home secretary slashed bobbies numbers. So for her to say the reduction in bobbies has helped to contribute to increased violent crime makes her look like a grade one twat. Which she is. Thank god she has nowt big to deal with. ðŸ¤”
		
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You might need to go way back when Gordon Brown spent all the bloody money and stuck us in a level of debt that we're only just seeing the end of a dam long tunnel.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			You might need to go way back when Gordon Brown spent all the bloody money and stuck us in a level of debt that we're only just seeing the end of a dam long tunnel.
		
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And sold all our gold at rock bottom


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2019)

Would like to know why she, seemingly, remains totally blind to the incompetence of Grayling....

Is it because he stops her from looking the most incompetent person in Westminster?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Would like to know why she, seemingly, remains totally blind to the incompetence of Grayling....

Is it because he stops her from looking the most incompetent person in Westminster?
		
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He is her Edwina Curry ðŸ˜±


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## larmen (Mar 6, 2019)

Or the Tory Abbott. Not that he is unable to count, but shows total loyalty to the current party leader. Who would fire their best ally?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			And sold all our gold at rock bottom 

Click to expand...

Not sure the Financial Times agreed

â€œYes. He was unequivocally right.
The FT (hardly a left wing Brown supporter!)
https://www.ft.com/content/5788d...
*Britain was right to sell off its pile of gold*
_On this one occasion, Mr Brownâ€™s decision was the right one._​_Let speculators go gambling on a shiny metal, if they want to. For most governments in rich countries, holding gold remains a largely pointless activity._​_Mr Brown, his critics say, must be kicking himself. Similarly, the French no doubt still suffer sleepless nights for prematurely taking profit on their Louisiana claim by offloading it to Thomas Jefferson in 1803. And had I put my life savings on Ballabriggs at 20-1 before last monthâ€™s Grand National, Iâ€™d be writing this on a solid platinum laptop while being sprayed with pink champagne in my new beachfront villa in Barbados._​_That is the way of things with speculative assets._​For people who say â€œhe should not have soldâ€ - how much gold did YOU buy? If you were not smart enough to know the future, why should he have been? How much do you buy regularly? Why didnâ€™t you?
And remember, it is fine for you to speculate with your own money on gambles but we expect better from the Chancellor.
It is clear in hindsight that in fact the price did go up.
But it was not clear at the time. If it were that obvious the price would go up then it would already have gone up: sure thing bets have a high value after all.
Why should the UK hold gold?
To take a punt on the possibility will go up?
Should Bank of England do that? How about criticising him for not buy shares in Apple in 2006? Or for not buying the winning ticket in EuroMillions?
As it was, he sold an asset (an asset that had dropped in price for years, and was earning no dividends) to pay off national debt.
That saved us billions in debt and reduced our interest payments.

Paying off debts is boring, but sensible.
If you have debts, it is better to pay them off before you go on speculative binges that â€œthe price might go upâ€.​​​Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			He is her Edwina Curry ðŸ˜±
		
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Didn't know Tezza was having rumpy pumpy with him...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2019)

larmen said:



			Or the Tory Abbott. Not that he is unable to count, but shows total loyalty to the current party leader. Who would fire their best ally?
		
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By failing to despatch him continues to highlight her own inadequacies as a leader...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 7, 2019)

Grayling is probably the ONLY cabinet minister who supports her.
Look at the faces of Rudd and Hammond when she is speaking at Wastemonster. they seem to be sitting on an ants nest.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure the Financial Times agreed

â€œYes. He was unequivocally right.
The FT (hardly a left wing Brown supporter!)
https://www.ft.com/content/5788d...
*Britain was right to sell off its pile of gold*
_On this one occasion, Mr Brownâ€™s decision was the right one._​_Let speculators go gambling on a shiny metal, if they want to. For most governments in rich countries, holding gold remains a largely pointless activity._​_Mr Brown, his critics say, must be kicking himself. Similarly, the French no doubt still suffer sleepless nights for prematurely taking profit on their Louisiana claim by offloading it to Thomas Jefferson in 1803. And had I put my life savings on Ballabriggs at 20-1 before last monthâ€™s Grand National, Iâ€™d be writing this on a solid platinum laptop while being sprayed with pink champagne in my new beachfront villa in Barbados._​_That is the way of things with speculative assets._​For people who say â€œhe should not have soldâ€ - how much gold did YOU buy? If you were not smart enough to know the future, why should he have been? How much do you buy regularly? Why didnâ€™t you?
And remember, it is fine for you to speculate with your own money on gambles but we expect better from the Chancellor.
It is clear in hindsight that in fact the price did go up.
But it was not clear at the time. If it were that obvious the price would go up then it would already have gone up: sure thing bets have a high value after all.
Why should the UK hold gold?
To take a punt on the possibility will go up?
Should Bank of England do that? How about criticising him for not buy shares in Apple in 2006? Or for not buying the winning ticket in EuroMillions?
As it was, he sold an asset (an asset that had dropped in price for years, and was earning no dividends) to pay off national debt.
That saved us billions in debt and reduced our interest payments.

Paying off debts is boring, but sensible.
If you have debts, it is better to pay them off before you go on speculative binges that â€œthe price might go upâ€.​​​Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
		
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Careful there as you are destroying a myth that enables certain people to completely ignore the many failings of the current administration and just blame what allegedly happened an increasingly long time ago.


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2019)

TMay may not be up to the job but christ on a bike, if this is the best alternative for the UK in a post Brexit world then god help us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48212755


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2019)

Johnson or McVey...â€¦â€¦â€¦.....PLEASE bring back May best politician of a generation.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			TMay may not be up to the job but christ on a bike, if this is the best alternative for the UK in a post Brexit world then god help us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48212755

Click to expand...

He may reward you with the Labour front bench. Now just imagine that!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2019)

Not sure if this is the correct thread but it is the nearest political one so I thought I would use it. I have just had the candidates confirmed for the European election in my area. They cover all of the key UK parties, 

Conservatives
Labour
Lib Dem
Change
Brexit
UKIP
Greens

At least I have all of the key ones as options. It will be interesting to see what happens. Do others have a similar spread or are you a few short? (I know people in Wales, NI & Scotland will have regional options as well so no need to point out the obvious there)


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2019)

I have just sent off my vote.
We have all of those plus two independent candidates.
 Not sure what to make of the Independent candidates ie were they independent independents or were they Scottish independence independent candidates.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure if this is the correct thread but it is the nearest political one so I thought I would use it. I have just had the candidates confirmed for the European election in my area. They cover all of the key UK parties,

Conservatives
Labour
Lib Dem
Change
Brexit
UKIP
Greens

At least I have all of the key ones as options. It will be interesting to see what happens. Do others have a similar spread or are you a few short? (I know people in Wales, NI & Scotland will have regional options as well so no need to point out the obvious there)
		
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Remainer party's doing a great job to ensure their vote is split. Seems none of them want to slice the cake up but would rather fight on a ticket stating that their remain is better than the other remain.


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## jp5 (May 10, 2019)

Looks like 4 Brexit parties vs 3 Remain parties, seems both camps are split.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Looks like 4 Brexit parties vs 3 Remain parties, seems both camps are split.
		
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Isn't it three "Brexit" parties (Conservatives, UKIP and Brexit Party), three "Remain" (Lib Dems, Change and Greens) and one "who the hell knows what they're thinking this week" party?


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## jp5 (May 10, 2019)

"who the hell knows what they're thinking this week" could be any of them 

Think Labour are firmly a Brexit party though. Just a different type of Brexit, which hasn't been defined yet. Maybe if they win the next GE they can spend a few years working it out.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't it three "Brexit" parties (Conservatives, UKIP and Brexit Party), three "Remain" (Lib Dems, Change and Greens) and one "who the hell knows what they're thinking this week" party?
		
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A confirmatory vote on a peoples vote .


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2019)

jp5 said:



			"*who the hell knows what they're thinking this week" could be any of them* 

Think Labour are firmly a Brexit party though. Just a different type of Brexit, which hasn't been defined yet. Maybe if they win the next GE they can spend a few years working it out.
		
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I think that's a bit unfair. The Greens, Lib Dems and Change have been consistent with their Remain stance throughout, as have the SNP who weren't originally mentioned. UKIP and Brexit parties have been consistent for Leave. So that's just the Conservatives and Labour left. I'm not convinced that Labour are a Brexit party, there seem to be a large number of their MPs pushing for a 2nd referendum to try to get the right result this time.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2019)

I think Labour and Conservative more remain than leave in the eyes of most voters and wouldn't get the votes after what's happened in the last year leaving just UKIP and Brexit Party's for leave.

Personally think Green for remain and Brexit for Leave is where the most votes will go outside of Scotland.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think Labour and Conservative more remain than leave in the eyes of most voters and wouldn't get the votes after what's happened in the last year leaving just UKIP and Brexit Party's for leave.

*Personally think Green for remain* and Brexit for Leave is where the most votes will go outside of Scotland.
		
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You don't think that the Lib Dems will get much of the Remain vote?


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You don't think that the Lib Dems will get much of the Remain vote?
		
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IMO I think the majority in the country will go against the main stream party's, even a failed one like the Lib Dems.


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## drdel (May 14, 2019)

Been on holiday for a couple of weeks and amazed she's still PM.

How much longer do we think she'll last ?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that's a bit unfair. The Greens, Lib Dems and Change have been consistent with their Remain stance throughout, as have the SNP who weren't originally mentioned. UKIP and Brexit parties have been consistent for Leave. So that's just the Conservatives and Labour left. I'm not convinced that Labour are a Brexit party, there seem to be a large number of their MPs pushing for a 2nd referendum to try to get the right result this time.
		
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Sadly in this case the break up of the Tory/Lab alliance in Scotland will probably see Scotland ending up with two of the six seats going to the Brexit party. Big support for the SNP but they have to hit over 66% of the total votes to get a fourth seat. Lib Dems getting the final one. 
End result will be the same as the original EU referendum with a two thirds majority for stay.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2019)

I see May's Scottish branch manager has stated that Scottish Government changes to prison reform will result in 10,000 dangerous criminals being set loose on the Scottish streets.
Well Truthless Davidson, perhaps you should have checked what the present Scottish prisoners list was before spouting some more Abbott/Johnson false figures around.

Total number of all prisoners is 8,300, around 10-20 % of them might be described as dangerous.


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## User62651 (May 25, 2019)

Can we close this thread now? 
OP's Question has been answered.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2019)

Just sub title it  delete where appropriate-------- Rory the Tory/ CanthelplyingBoris/ Jeremy cough unt/ BackstabbinGove. and the other ones that I am not really aware of.
My money is on Rory the Tory as he is the least obnoxious of the whole rotten shower.


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## Slime (May 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just sub title it  delete where appropriate-------- Rory the Tory/ CanthelplyingBoris/ Jeremy cough unt/ BackstabbinGove. and the other ones that I am not really aware of.
My money is on Rory the Tory as he is the least obnoxious of the whole rotten shower.
		
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Rather him than Doon the Loon.
Sorry fella, I just couldn't resist, no offence meant, obviously.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2019)

Slime said:



			Rather him than Doon the Loon.
Sorry fella, I just couldn't resist, no offence meant, obviously.
		
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Nae bother, After 25 years of managing golf courses I have been called much worse than a waterfowl 

Mind you as a supporter of Scots independence I desperately hope that Rageland vote in Johnson.


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## Fade and Die (May 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nae bother, After 25 years of managing golf courses I have been called much worse than a waterfowl 

Mind you as a supporter of Scots independence I desperately hope that Rageland vote in Johnson.
		
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I hate Borisâ€™s guts and donâ€™t trust him as far as I can spit..
Iâ€™d much rather see Raaaab in No.10. Better still Steve Bakerâ€¦ or Priti Patelâ€¦. with Mark Francois as Brexit Secretaryâ€¦ðŸ˜


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## Slime (May 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I hate Borisâ€™s guts and donâ€™t trust him as far as I can spit..
Iâ€™d much rather see Raaaab in No.10. Better still Steve Bakerâ€¦ or *Priti Patel*â€¦. with Mark Francois as Brexit Secretaryâ€¦ðŸ˜
		
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Priti Patel or Raab for me .................................. today, anyway.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2019)

Slime said:



			Priti Patel or Raab for me .................................. today, anyway.
		
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Priti Patel who was sacked for having numerous secret meetings when a minister? It took some doing to get sacked from a TM cabinet but she managed it. Why would she be a good leader based on her record?


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## Fade and Die (May 26, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Priti Patel who was sacked for having numerous secret meetings when a minister? It took some doing to get sacked from a TM cabinet but she managed it. Why would she be a good leader based on her record?
		
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Sorry...I was basing it on looks!ðŸ˜


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Sorry...I was basing it on looks!ðŸ˜
		
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Now we have sexist comments flying about, what kind of forum is this


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Now we have sexist comments flying about, what kind of forum is this 

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How very dare you try to suggest gender specific!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 27, 2019)

I'm taking this to be a new PM thread so.......after Sajid Javid has now thrown in what does this say about the candidates? Half the cabinet seems to be up for the job so clearly they don't rate each other. Normally a few stand and others back them, creating a team. This time, no team, all individuals. Not a good sign for a future cabinet.


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm taking this to be a new PM thread so.......after Sajid Javid has now thrown in w*hat does this say about the candidates?* Half the cabinet seems to be up for the job so clearly they don't rate each other. Normally a few stand and others back them, creating a team. This time, no team, all individuals. Not a good sign for a future cabinet.
		
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They are all power mad self serving ideologues who would turn on their colleagues in a heartbeat and sell their grannys for a shot at being PM to forward their own particular personal agendas?
Sorry, I apologise, I meant to say they all have the interests of the country at heart.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm taking this to be a new PM thread so.......after Sajid Javid has now thrown in what does this say about the candidates? Half the cabinet seems to be up for the job so clearly they don't rate each other. Normally a few stand and others back them, creating a team. This time, no team, all individuals. Not a good sign for a future cabinet.
		
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They've had too much power for the last 3 years and its given them a God complex. They had their chance and have shown they're incompetent. Sack 'em all.


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## Foxholer (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			They've had too much power for the last 3 years and its given them a God complex. They had their chance and have shown they're incompetent. Sack 'em all.
		
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While I agree with 90% of the above, the last sentence is no solution - thy'd only be replaced by more of the same!

I do, however, have an inkling that it might be a great time for Boris to get the job! If he can get Brexit done, then I'd likely be a convert to him (from a zillion miles away from that!). If he can't (and I'm 99% sure he won't be able to), then it'll destroy any shred of credibility that he might have had!

His only way to deflect from 'personal' blame for not being able to complete the deal would be if he called for another referendum, something that I simply don't believe he'd get through Parliament - except via the periously risky method May took of calling another election! Corbyn/Labour would love that!


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## larmen (May 27, 2019)

Wasnâ€™t there a theory that anyone who wants to be PM, president, chancellor, ... would not make a good one anyway?

And most of those candidates have been found worse than May in the last contest they held, so it should be a fresh one.


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