# Should those in the public eye resign for breaking lockdown rules?



## oltimer (May 9, 2020)

Professor Lockdown, hardly well known - resigned, a shame as his expertise be needed at the Virus Table,  
Kyle Walker a Nationally known Manchester City footballer has again (3 times) ignored the rules all should comply with to prevent this virus spreading,  a round trip of around 80 miles to give his sister a birthday card (no post boxes in Prestbury?) then on to his parents to collect some home made food and is now complaining that the press reporting his total lack of concern for the rest of us is upsetting his wife and children and unfairly so, before he does the right thing and resign from Man City as his actions bring the Club into disrepute he should go and visit some of the hundred spouses and children of those NHS people who have lost their lives attempting to save others from this virus.  has he no moral compass.


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## Slab (May 9, 2020)

When are people going to cotton-on
The lockdown is not for the rich and famous

It is there for the rest of us to follow and millions can't do that, with 10-20% breaching lockdown in the UK it stands to reason that 10-20% of footballers will breach it too even if they weren't famous


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## bobmac (May 9, 2020)

He was reportedly fined £1000
That won't make much of a dent in his £150,000 per week wages.
I don't know if his team have agreed to a pay cut during the pandemic, but if not he has earned over £1,050,000 since the lockdown for doing nothing.
He'll get no sympathy from me and if he feels harassed by the media, he's only got himself to blame.


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## Fish (May 9, 2020)

oltimer said:



			Professor Lockdown, hardly well known - resigned, a shame as his expertise be needed at the Virus Table, 
Kyle Walker a Nationally known Manchester City footballer has again (3 times) ignored the rules all should comply with to prevent this virus spreading,  a round trip of around 80 miles to give his sister a birthday card (no post boxes in Prestbury?) then on to his parents to collect some home made food and is now complaining that the press reporting his total lack of concern for the rest of us is upsetting his wife and children and unfairly so, before he does the right thing and resign from Man City as his actions bring the Club into disrepute he should go and visit some of the hundred spouses and children of those NHS people who have lost their lives attempting to save others from this virus.  has he no moral compass.
		
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The problem is with idiots like KW, is, they believe they’re above any law or guidelines, they have an attitude that’s transmits to being better than anyone else and will always do what they want, after all, what’s the worse that can happen, if his club fines him, so what, they’re millionaires, the club won’t drop him if he’s needed, and he’d get paid still anyway.

There’s a few in the football fraternity and other sports that will act like complete tools, knowing that if it’s not a criminal offence, where some proper punishment could be implemented, they’ll just please themselves and to hell with being told what they can or can’t do!

He’s a self absorbed selfish idiot, and unfortunately he’s not alone!


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## bobmac (May 9, 2020)

If I was his boss he'd be looking for a new job


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 9, 2020)

There’s over 4,000 professional footballers in the UK, why worry about the behaviour of 3 or 4 of them? 

Regardless of situation you will not get 100% compliance from all walks of society.

As I asked yesterday, why aren’t we asking if this is actually newsworthy and if it’s what we want from our media? The “photographer” allegedly followed Walker over an 11 hour period documenting his actions and taking photographs. I’d guess they were already stalking him hoping for a story, is that behaviour acceptable at this time? Surely the responsible thing to have done was to of phoned the Police when he arrived in Sheffield after travelling from Manchester not to have sat and waited for 4 hours to get the picture as he left.

Press are scum in my opinion and those who buy the papers are condoning their behaviour.


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## Diamond (May 9, 2020)

A public flogging would suffice but they will get away with a telling off.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Whilst I would never condone the actions of Kyle Walker I do feel that there is a vital distinction to draw in the two cases cited by the OP.

Walker is a professional footballer and, as such  and in view of his previous breach should realise that the gutter press are likely to have him under scrutiny. Clearly his brains are in his feet, or somewhere beneath his waist.

However   the Professor was part of the very body that advised the Government on the policy of lockdown and, I believe, at one stage went public to stress the importance of us all adhere to the rules and guidelines. 

In light of this he had no option but to resign as his breach damaged the credibility of SAGE and its ongoing role in fighting the virus .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Whilst I would never condone the actions of Kyle Walker I do feel that there is a vital distinction to draw in the two cases cited by the OP.

Walker is a professional footballer and, as such  and in view of his previous breach should realise that the gutter press are likely to have him under scrutiny. Clearly his brains are in his feet, or somewhere beneath his waist.

However   the Professor was part of the very body that advised the Government on the policy of lockdown and, I believe, at one stage went public to stress the importance of us all adhere to the rules and guidelines.

In light of this he had no option but to resign as his breach damaged the credibility of SAGE and its ongoing role in fighting the virus .
		
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It only damages the credibility of SAGE if you chose to draw that conclusion for the mistaken action of one expert among about 40 modellers inputting their findings to the group.  If I am looking to find a way around the restrictions then I will. That some say - well if he did it then why can’t I - are for me simply the thoughts of someone looking to breach the conditions the government is asking us to adhere to.  The evidence and options SAGE have provided to the government remain unchanged and as valid as they were when they were made - I am minded to think that the input of Ferguson is not something we should have quite so blithely discarded because others might choose to use it as an excuse for themselves to act irresponsibly.  I am also minded to suggest that the part Ferguson has played, and could continue to play, in keeping us safe through providing input to SAGE is rather more valuable than such as Jenrick.

We do sometimes seem to act against our own interests for reasons that are often rather over blown.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It only damages the credibility of SAGE if you chose to draw that conclusion for the mistaken action of one expert among about 40 modellers inputting their findings to the group.  If I am looking to find a way around the restrictions then I will. That some say - well if he did it then why can’t I - are for me simply the thoughts of someone looking to breach the conditions the government is asking us to adhere to.  The evidence and options SAGE have provided to the government remain unchanged and as valid as they were when they were made - I am minded to think that the input of Ferguson is not something we should have quite so blithely discarded because others might choose to use it as an excuse for themselves to act irresponsibly.
		
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You clearly have a very different view to mine of Collective Responsibility.

If, by his actions or words  a member of SAGE or similar body weakens that organisation, and Prof Ferguson clearly did, then he owes it to that body to accept his continued membership will damage it.

Resignation was his only option regardless of his expertise


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You clearly have a very different view to mine of Collective Responsibility.

If, by his actions or words  a member of SAGE or similar body weakens that organisation, and Prof Ferguson clearly did, then he owes it to that body to accept his continued membership will damage it.

Resignation was his only option regardless of his expertise
		
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But I don’t think it makes one iota of difference to the validity of what SAGE tells the government.  His acts are the personal behaviour of one individual who had already contracted and recovered from the virus. They do not invalidate or undermine his analysis of the pandemic or of the options provided to the government by SAGE unless you choose to make that so.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You clearly have a very different view to mine of Collective Responsibility.

If, by his actions or words  a member of SAGE or similar body weakens that organisation, and Prof Ferguson clearly did, then he owes it to that body to accept his continued membership will damage it.

Resignation was his only option regardless of his expertise
		
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You will note that I have "liked " this and SILH post above. I am in broad agreement in principle with MM, but sometimes, the requirement for retribution of the usual kind, is outweighed by the requirements of the many.
In this case, the Country.
The Country will benefit , at this time, from the Professors work. So , use it.
His reputation has been battered as it is, and after this is over and his expertise has helped , then is the time that his reputation would affect him.
Amongst the Press, and importantly, amongst his peers.
After all, for what will he be most remembered when things are normal?


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2020)

oltimer said:



			Professor Lockdown, hardly well known - resigned, a shame as his expertise be needed at the Virus Table,
Kyle Walker a Nationally known Manchester City footballer has again (3 times) ignored the rules all should comply with to prevent this virus spreading,  a round trip of around 80 miles to give his sister a birthday card (no post boxes in Prestbury?) then on to his parents to collect some home made food and is now complaining that the press reporting his total lack of concern for the rest of us is upsetting his wife and children and unfairly so, before he does the right thing and resign from Man City as his actions bring the Club into disrepute* he should go and visit some of the hundred spouses and children of those NHS people who have lost their lives attempting to save others from this virus.*  has he no moral compass.
		
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It was all pretty good until then!!

I hope it was meant ironically (though doubt it was)! Otherwise it demonstrates almost identical 'non-thinking' to the idiotic KW!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I don’t think it makes one iota of difference to the validity of what SAGE tells the government.  His acts are the personal behaviour of one individual who had already contracted and recovered from the virus. They do not invalidate his analysis of the pandemic.
		
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No one is questioning his scientific judgement. 

However,  you and I would be critical of any politician who quite so blatantly adopted a "Do as I say  not as I do!" attitude.

The same standard applies to Government advisors and scientists.

Privilege extended due to wealth and rank is wrong and so  is privilege based upon scientific acumen.


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## larmen (May 9, 2020)

However,  you and I would be critical of any politician who quite so blatantly adopted a "Do as I say  not as I do!" attitude.
		
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How about a government minister who spends weeks at their 2nd home instead of staying home and saving lifes? And I don't mean in their constituency but a countryside residence. How about that same minister shaking hands in hospitals the same day the government advertises social distancing? Of course it his all forgiven as he caught it himself (how, if he would follow all government advise?). Nothing could damage the message of staying safe more than Boris himself.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			How about a government minister who spends weeks at their 2nd home instead of staying home and saving lifes? And I don't mean in their constituency but a countryside residence. How about that same minister shaking hands in hospitals the same day the government advertises social distancing? Of course it his all forgiven as he caught it himself (how, if he would follow all government advise?). Nothing could damage the message of staying safe more than Boris himself.
		
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You appear to be mixing up the actions of the PM with those of the Education Secretary. 

In the case of the latter it wasn't a  country home but the residence from which he services his constituency. Still  wrong. 

As for Boris the infamous handshakes were in the very early stages of the virus in this country and therefore,  there was still considerable confusion over the best courses of action.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			How about a government minister who spends weeks at their 2nd home instead of staying home and saving lifes? And I don't mean in their constituency but a countryside residence. How about that same minister shaking hands in hospitals the same day the government advertises social distancing? Of course it his all forgiven as he caught it himself (how, if he would follow all government advise?). Nothing could damage the message of staying safe more than Boris himself.
		
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Wondered how long it would take to blame Boris 😔


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## Bunkermagnet (May 9, 2020)

The rules and advice is for everyone. To think and act otherwise is reckless and selfish.


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## Wolf (May 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			He was reportedly fined £1000
That won't make much of a dent in his £150,000 per week wages.
I don't know if his team have agreed to a pay cut during the pandemic, but if not he has earned over £1,050,000 since the lockdown for doing nothing.
He'll get no sympathy from me and if he feels harassed by the media, he's only got himself to blame.
		
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Why does what he earns have to be constantly mentioned or used as a factor in consideration of what he's done. It has absolutely nothing to do with money that he has breached lockdown.

It has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement either its merely a case that he is one of the many thousands of dickheads that are breaching all over the country but its merely newsworthy because of who he is. I'd equally like to see people castigate the pleb of a reporter that felt the need to be traipsing over the country for 11hrs. Nobody is complaining about him being paid to follow the footballer, therefore being paid to do a non essential journey are they, nope just the bloke who earns more and should know better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Thing is that the relationship between SAGE and the government has been established in the public mindset over the last three months - that the government is being 'led by the science' - and by implication the government is being led by SAGE. 

And we here all know (because it's the sort of thing we try and understand) that that is not actually how it will have been working.  SAGE will have been providing the government with *options *based upon the input provided by the sub-groups, each of which has input from many scientists and others, one of whom was Prof Neil Ferguson.  The *government *then chooses the route that it wishes to go down by considering and weighing up the options - and the impact - political, social and economic that each might have.  And so the mantra 'We are being led by the science', is simply rather disingenuous - guided certainly - but not led.

But as the relationship established in the public mindest by the briefings is that SAGE leads - the government follows - the error of Ferguson is portrayed as 'those that tell us what to do are not doing it themselves'.  When in fact it is not SAGE who are telling us what to do - everything we are doing today is as a result of a positive decision made by government.  If anyone should be looking at their actions in the context of 'them telling us and acting differently' - that individual should be Robert Jenrick.  Yes he gave 'good' reasons - but then so did Ferguson.


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Why does what he earns have to be constantly mentioned or used as a factor in consideration of what he's done. It has absolutely nothing to do with money that he has breached lockdown.

It has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement either its merely a case that he is one of the many thousands of dickheads that are breaching all over the country but its merely newsworthy because of who he is. I'd equally like to see people castigate the pleb of a reporter that felt the need to be traipsing over the country for 11hrs. Nobody is complaining about him being paid to follow the footballer, therefore being paid to do a non essential journey are they, nope just the bloke who earns more and should know better.
		
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Agree here do we really need reporters travelling miles like this for gossip.
Yes he broke lockdown “rules” but are they not broken thousands of times everyday because they are so vague.
No excuse for the scientists imo he’s just two faced.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

Ferguson isn’t the next Messiah, he isn’t irreplaceable. His professional competency, in isolation, isn’t in question but there might just be an issue of trust. If his character is capable of making errors of judgement would I trust him implicitly?

Imagine a Q&A session with the press in a few months time, and the govt is getting slaughtered for a bad decision. The govt’s defence is they followed the science. “Ah yes Mr Johnson, that’ll be the scientific judgement from a man of questionable character.” Defend it if they can...


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## bobmac (May 9, 2020)

I agree, the reporter shouldn't have been following him, but if KW had stayed at home there would have been no story to chase.

As for what he earns.....
If he is fined £1,000 for his third lockdown offence then obviously the deterrent isn't working as he only has £19,000 + to last him the rest of the day.

It's a bit like someone on £25,000 a year getting fined £10, that's no deterrent .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ferguson isn’t the next Messiah, he isn’t irreplaceable. His professional competency, in isolation, isn’t in question but there might just be an issue of trust. If his character is capable of making errors of judgement would I trust him implicitly?

Imagine a Q&A session with the press in a few months time, and the govt is getting slaughtered for a bad decision. The govt’s defence is they followed the science. “Ah yes Mr Johnson, that’ll be the scientific judgement from a man of questionable character.” Defend it if they can...
		
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Exactly - he is not the next Messiah - he is one of many in a group that provide options to the government,  and so he is not actually leading very much at all.  And yes - he's not irreplaceable - because he is simply one of many - albeit someone recognised as being a leading 'one of many' in his field.

Do I  have to trust in him - him alone?  Or do I have to trust the consensus of opinion reached *within *SAGE on the options available?;  or in fact do I really and quite simply only have to trust in the government to make the right decisions - and that they make these decisions on the best way to go for the country based upon the options they are presented with by SAGE?  Bottom line is that it is the government that makes the decisions - the government can choose what to trust and believe in - and what not to  trust.  

I might think differently if we knew the options being presented to government by SAGE at each critical decision point, and if we knew the basis of the decision that the government subsequently took.  But we don't know any of that. 

Maybe on Sunday the PM will give us a bit more of the 'why' after he has told us the 'what'.  

In truth I think that in many ways the decisions to be taken now and in the coming weeks are harder decisions than those that had to be taken at the outset - when we all realised that we simply had to stop the virus exploding through the population.


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## Wolf (May 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I agree, the reporter shouldn't have been following him, but if KW had stayed at home there would have been no story to chase.

As for what he earns.....
If he is fined £1,000 for his third lockdown offence then obviously the deterrent isn't working as he only has £19,000 + to last him the rest of the day.

It's a bit like someone on £25,000 a year getting fined £10, that's no deterrent .
		
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Still irrelevant because fines for things like this have to be set to apply to everyone not according to what they earn. His earnings nor anyone's are means for consideration in breaking any laws if they were we'd have no crimes committed or driving laws broken or lockdown breaches by anyone would we.


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## Imurg (May 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Still irrelevant because fines for things like this have to be set to apply to everyone not according to what they earn. His earnings nor anyone's are means for consideration in breaking any laws if they were we'd have no crimes committed or driving laws broken or lockdown breaches by anyone would we.
		
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Spending fines use your earnings to calculate the amount of a fine in many cases.....


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## bobmac (May 9, 2020)

First offence.....One days pay
Second offence ..One weeks pay
Third offence....One months pay


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is that the relationship between SAGE and the government has been established in the public mindset over the last three months - that the government is being 'led by the science' - and by implication the government is being led by SAGE.

And we here all know (because it's the sort of thing we try and understand) that that is not actually how it will have been working.  SAGE will have been providing the government with *options *based upon the input provided by the sub-groups, each of which has input from many scientists and others, one of whom was Prof Neil Ferguson.  The *government *then chooses the route that it wishes to go down by considering and weighing up the options - and the impact - political, social and economic that each might have.  And so the mantra *'We are being led by the science', is simply rather disingenuous - guided certainly - but not led.*

But as the relationship established in the public mindest by the briefings is that SAGE leads - the government follows - the error of Ferguson is portrayed as 'those that tell us what to do are not doing it themselves'.  When in fact it is not SAGE who are telling us what to do - everything we are doing today is as a result of a positive decision made by government.  If anyone should be looking at their actions in the context of 'them telling us and acting differently' - that individual should be Robert Jenrick.  Yes he gave 'good' reasons - but then so did Ferguson.
		
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Re the bold . I'll be brief -  crap!   And another dig


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ferguson isn’t the next Messiah, he isn’t irreplaceable. His professional competency, in isolation, isn’t in question but there might just be an issue of trust. If his character is capable of making errors of judgement would I trust him implicitly?

Imagine a Q&A session with the press in a few months time, and the govt is getting slaughtered for a bad decision. The govt’s defence is they followed the science. “Ah yes Mr Johnson, that’ll be the scientific judgement from a man of questionable character.” Defend it if they can...
		
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That's a bit harsh.  I'm not condoning what he did. It was wrong , plain and simple. But that doesn't mean his professional advice is wrong, or in question.
1.
A person with true scientific expertise and knowledge imparts that, with others  of similar backgrounds, to the Government.
Anyone would say that was good advice given in good faith.
A few weeks and days later he breaks a rule of behaviour that he has been advising. 
 That does not invalidate that scientific advice.
2.A Doctor prescribes life saving treatment to a patient. Days later he breaks a professional rule , say for example, by divulging information to a reporter who he's having an affair with.
That doesn't invalidate his treatment's effectiveness.


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's a bit harsh.  I'm not condoning what he did. It was wrong , plain and simple. But that doesn't mean his professional advice is wrong, or in question.
1.
A person with true scientific expertise and knowledge imparts that, with others  of similar backgrounds, to the Government.
Anyone would say that was good advice given in good faith.
A few weeks and days later he breaks a rule of behaviour that he has been advising.
That does not invalidate that scientific advice.
2.A Doctor prescribes life saving treatment to a patient. Days later he breaks a professional rule , say for example, by divulging information to a reporter who he's having an affair with.
That doesn't invalidate his treatment's effectiveness.
		
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I think the thing is though.
He was one of the main architects of the plan!
Double standards like that is not on .


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## chellie (May 9, 2020)

What irritates me more is the arrogance of them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Re the bold . I'll be brief -  crap!   And another dig
		
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What, then, is it that you think SAGE does if it does not simply present the government with scientific-based options from which the government must choose in accordance with what they must balance against the impact on the economy - and for which SAGE will have little if any say.   

And why - pray tell - is it a dig at the government to suggest that it is the government that makes the decisions?  This 'led by the science' is a handy sound-bite - but it is not actually true.  Government decisions are certainly _guided _by the science - but _led _by it - No.


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Wondered how long it would take to *blame* Boris 😔
		
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'Criticise', not 'blame' as far as I see - and I'm not one of his 'fanboys'.
As for the original question....They should certainly consider whether their action warrtants resignation - and in many cases, it's likely to be a pretty instantaneous 'Yes'!


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## IanM (May 9, 2020)

If someone in a position of responsibility says don't do something, then does exactly that, maybe they deserve the consequences?


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
But as the relationship established in the public mindest by the briefings is that SAGE leads - the government follows - the error of Ferguson is portrayed as 'those that tell us what to do are not doing it themselves'.  When in fact it is not SAGE who are telling us what to do - everything we are doing today is as a result of a positive decision made by government.  If anyone should be looking at their actions in the context of 'them telling us and acting differently' - that individual should be Robert Jenrick.  Yes he gave 'good' reasons - but then so did Ferguson.
		
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That's always, and always should be, the way government works.
Can you identify any of the recommendations from SAGE that the government haven't been passed on? The term 'being led by the science' certainly seems appropriate to me - and might be even for any (and I don't know of any) that haven't been implemented.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What, then, is it that you think SAGE does if it does not simply present the government with scientific-based options from which the government must choose in accordance with what they must balance against the impact on the economy - and for which SAGE will have little if any say.  

And why - pray tell - is it a dig at the government to suggest that it is the government that makes the decisions?  This 'led by the science' is a handy sound-bite - but it is not actually true.  Government decisions are certainly _guided _by the science - but _led _by it - No.
		
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You are using semantics again to have the little dig. You did that by slipping the word disingenuous in . 
Anyone objectively reading your post can see it is a criticism. You are alleging that the government is creating a way out from the blame  that may be levelled against them.
You are good at it, I'll give you that.


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are using semantics again to have the little dig. You did that by slipping the word disingenuous in .
Anyone objectively reading your post can see it is a criticism. You are alleging that the government is creating a way out from the blame  that may be levelled against them.
*You are good at it, I'll give you that*.
		
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Only in your (deluded imo) mind! It seems to me that YOU are the one 'having a dig'! And it's time to desist!

Btw. SILH is absolutely correct re the Led versus Guided issue in terms of Government action imo! Though 'Led' and 'Guided' are pretty much similes in many situations. Guides certainly Lead in many situations!


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's a bit harsh.  I'm not condoning what he did. It was wrong , plain and simple. But that doesn't mean his professional advice is wrong, or in question.
1.
A person with true scientific expertise and knowledge imparts that, with others  of similar backgrounds, to the Government.
Anyone would say that was good advice given in good faith.
A few weeks and days later he breaks a rule of behaviour that he has been advising.
That does not invalidate that scientific advice.
2.A Doctor prescribes life saving treatment to a patient. Days later he breaks a professional rule , say for example, by divulging information to a reporter who he's having an affair with.
That doesn't invalidate his treatment's effectiveness.
		
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Harsh it may be, and I'm not questioning his professional competency, I'm questioning his character and integrity.

Do I take the advice from someone who's made an error of judgement when, potentially, 10's of thousands of lives are on the table. You're comfortable with it, and I'm not.

Throwing different hypothetical scenarios at it don't change the potential outcome. You're comfortable with those, and I'm not.


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## Foxholer (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ferguson isn’t the next Messiah...
		
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'He's been a very naughty boy' though!


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What, then, is it that you think SAGE does if it does not simply present the government with scientific-based options from which the government must choose in accordance with what they must balance against the impact on the economy - and for which SAGE will have little if any say.  

And why - pray tell - is it a dig at the government to suggest that it is the government that makes the decisions?  This 'led by the science' is a handy sound-bite - but it is not actually true.  Government decisions are certainly _guided _by the science - but _led _by it - No.
		
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The govt's decision is based on the scientific evidence that creates the options the scientists offer. Yes, the govt bases its decision on the options from the scientists AND on the economy.

On any given day the options might say x, y, z and the economy might say a, b, c. The govt make the decision but that decision is based on "they led us to make the conclusion(decision)."

I think that you maybe are playing with the semantics of it, subconsciously(?), just as I've shown you an example of led that is relevant to how management teams make decisions based on the evidence given to them. 

Are you having a dig? I don't think you are intentionally, but I do think your inbuilt Tory-hate will always make you read it that way.


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## JamesR (May 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think the thing is though.
He was one of the main architects of the plan!
Double standards like that is not on .
		
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I believe he was actually one speaking out earlier, suggesting lockdown should have happened when we were merely delaying.


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## oltimer (May 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If I was his boss he'd be looking for a new job
		
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Read that City are taking no action as he had compassionate mitigating circumstances to ignore the lockdown, Frank Swift will be turning in his grave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Only in your (deluded imo) mind! It seems to me that YOU are the one 'having a dig'! And it's time to desist!

Btw. SILH is absolutely correct re the Led versus Guided issue in terms of Government action imo! Though 'Led' and 'Guided' are pretty much similes in many situations. Guides certainly Lead in many situations!
		
Click to expand...

If there is just one option presented to the government then that is one thing and led or hand-in-hand is appropriate - though there is still a political choice to be made - accept or not. But for many decisions SAGE may present a number of options - most times they may come with a recommendation but sometimes not. The decision on the route to go, on the advice to take, will depend upon consideration of the impact that route could have on economy short and long term, and on such as unemployment and business viability.  That decision is then a political one that is informed and guided by the science - it is political because the situation the country finds itself in and the state of the economy are going to be the responsibility of the government to address and that may require measures that they know could be unpopular.


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## bobmac (May 10, 2020)

Another thread hijacked


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## JamesR (May 22, 2020)

So , should Cummings go?


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So , should Cummings go?
		
Click to expand...

If true, then yes.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2020)

If proven then definitely


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## ScienceBoy (May 23, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So , should Cummings go?
		
Click to expand...

Copy and paste response, my feelings on this haven’t changed.

Normally, where the harm is relatively low, people are often called to walk when they need to stay as the next person just makes a similar silly mistake and it stalls all progress on the thing they are in charge of.

Here though a line has been crossed and it’s that rare occasion I think the person should stand down.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So , should Cummings go?
		
Click to expand...

Well you can't have one rule for some and another for others can you???


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

Are they laws, rules or guidelines ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Are they laws, rules or guidelines ?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on political bias and social standing going on how it’s been handled so far.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Are they laws, rules or guidelines ?
		
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Are you asking on behalf of Jack Sparrow?


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## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Are they laws, rules or guidelines ?
		
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If people have been getting fined for breaking them then they must surely be laws. Otherwise none of the fines can be legally enforceable. IMO.


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

I'm asking because when MPs are elected, the have to take the oath.....

_I (name of Member) swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, *according to law*. So help me God. _

Other non god variations are permitted.

The way I read that is if they then break the law, they have to go.


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## Rlburnside (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm asking because when MPs are elected, the have to take the oath.....

_I (name of Member) swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, *according to law*. So help me God. _

Other non god variations are permitted.

The way I read that is if they then break the law, they have to go.
		
Click to expand...

But he’s not a MP and hasn’t Broken any laws, he’s got to go though.


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			But he’s not a MP and hasn’t Broken any laws, he’s got to go though.
		
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Sorry, I was thinking about Jenrick


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

Needs to go. Man is now the story and when you become the story it's time to get the sack.


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## NearHull (May 23, 2020)

There may be a bigger issue here.  Durham Police are standing by their statement that they spoke to the owner of the house in which Cummings stayed and yet Cummings’ statement says that there was no contact from the police.  This is a now a dispute about facts, and not of opinion of “common sense“ that the Govt would like to argue.  I think the bigger problem here is that the PM has given his full backing to Cummings and it may be that Boris Johnson’s has (mis)placed loyalty before government.
( It hasn’t been clarified who the owner of the house actually is, but I understand it is situated on Cummings‘ fathers estate)

just realised I’ve put in several grammatical errors  - apostrophe pedantics, please have mercy


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			If people have been getting fined for breaking them then they must surely be laws. Otherwise none of the fines can be legally enforceable. IMO.
		
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Haven't the majority of the previous fines been set aside?


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

NearHull said:



			There may be a bigger issue here.  Durham Police are standing by their statement that they spoke to the owner of the house in which Cummings stayed and yet Cummings’ statement says that there was no contact from the police.  This is a now a dispute about facts, and not of opinion of “common sense“ that the Govt would like to argue.  I think the bigger problem here is that the PM has given his full backing to Cummings and it may be that Boris Johnson’s has (mis)placed loyalty before government.
( It hasn’t been clarified who the owner of the house actually is, but I understand it is situated on Cummings‘ fathers estate)

just realised I’ve put in several grammatical errors  - apostrophe pedantics, please have mercy
		
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As I read it the cops spoke to the owner who explained DC and his family were in another house and self isolating. The cops then lectured said owner.

Strictly speaking both DC and cops are correct.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			As I read it the cops spoke to the owner who explained DC and his family were in another house and self isolating. The cops then lectured said owner.

Strictly speaking both DC and cops are correct.
		
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the word you are looking for is "pedantically" not 'strictly"


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## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			As I read it the cops spoke to the owner who explained DC and his family were in another house and self isolating. The cops then lectured said owner.

Strictly speaking both DC and cops are correct.
		
Click to expand...

Only problem with that is the Downing Street statement that said that "At no stage was he *or his family spoken to by the police* about this matter, as is being reported". If as has been reported he stayed on a property on his parents estate and the police spoke to the owner then "his family" have been spoken to by the police. 

But I guess you can get away with anything when you know where all the skeletons are buried.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

“Strictly speaking” is always a good sign that your argument is based on really solid ground 😂😂😂


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## rulefan (May 23, 2020)

Can someone say *exactly* what Cummings gave as his justification. My impression is that his reason was within the then guidance.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Can someone say *exactly* what Cummings gave as his justification. My impression is that his reason was within the then guidance.
		
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As far as I'm aware, he hasn't issued any statement unless of course he wrote the Number 10 statement this morning! Or maybe he is writing Gove and Raab's tweets.


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## PaulS (May 23, 2020)

I saw a tweet that said his wife’s sister only lives 20 mins away from him , so if he needed childcare that badly why not go to her ?

For all the good the current government are doing in this crisis they do keep shooting themselves in the foot


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## Imurg (May 23, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I saw a tweet that said his wife’s sister only lives 20 mins away from him , so if he needed childcare that badly why not go to her ?

For all the good the current government are doing in this crisis they do keep shooting themselves in the foot
		
Click to expand...

Many possible reasons...ill, isolating too, having to work, not enough room....who knows.....


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## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Many possible reasons...ill, isolating too, having to work, not enough room....who knows.....
		
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And not forgetting it wasn't her birthday.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 23, 2020)

He's connected to those in power. Of course he does as he pleases, it's do as I say not as I do.


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## User62651 (May 23, 2020)

Durham Police did speak to Cummings, details released by police - No. 10 lied.

Cummings web of lies backed by Govt have been further exposed this evening. The stranglehold this unelected SPAD clearly holds over ministers and PM is unhealthy. Just waiting for the next 'explanation' from No.10.

The level of cover up and repeated lying and control of media around this scandal from No.10 is actually becoming quite sinister now.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Genuinely thought this was a parody.  But it is apparently the from page of tomorrows Mail on Sunday. I think the UK has jumped the shark.


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## 2blue (May 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Durham Police did speak to Cummings, details released by police - No. 10 lied.

Cummings web of lies backed by Govt have been further exposed this evening. The stranglehold this unelected SPAD clearly holds over ministers and PM is unhealthy. Just waiting for the next 'explanation' from No.10.

*The level of cover up and repeated lying and control of media around this scandal from No.10 is actually becoming quite sinister no*w. 

Click to expand...

That's nothing new.....  will cowardly, Big-Betty-Boris even turn up for PMQ


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## Wildboy370 (May 23, 2020)

One bit that’s missing from this story. Have You ever tried to drive 250miles with a child and not had to stop at least once ? even adults can’t go that Long without a loo stop. So did they stop, if so where and how many people did they come into contact with, doors they touched etc etc. And all this with at least one of the occupants of an enclosed space carrying the virus. Coughing in a car, lord only knows how many germs they were covered in if they did stop.


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## CliveW (May 23, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			even adults can’t go that Long without a loo stop.
		
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I think you need to seek medical help if you can't.


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## 2blue (May 23, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I think you need to seek medical help if you can't.  

Click to expand...

4 to 5 hrs taking in fluids....  yerll  need a bag if you're not stopping. Of course you'll need to stop.


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## CliveW (May 23, 2020)

I must have a good constitution then. I regularly drive from Perth to Northampton non-stop. 400 miles - six hours.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I must have a good constitution then. I regularly drive from Perth to Northampton non-stop. 400 miles - six hours.  

Click to expand...

That's a dangerous practice imo. Stopping is definitely recommended - for your own, and others, safety. If you don't need at least 1 loo-break, you are probably also getting dehydrated even if taking on fluids (air conditioning will do that!) which is another potential killer. I used to drive that distance frequently (between Surrey and Edinburgh) and made sure I stopped every couple of hours. Tebay Services was always a highlight!


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuinely thought this was a parody.  But it is apparently the from page of tomorrows Mail on Sunday. I think the UK has jumped the shark.
	View attachment 30818

Click to expand...

Good to see Boris back on his specialist subject, extra marital affairs.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 24, 2020)

I have been very supportive of the Government during this crisis as they were dealing with a complete unknown scenario.  But when this unelected self-important idiot thinks the rules don't apply to him and then the PM and other senior ministers try to cover it up/make it seem OK, then they need to head to A&E with a case of foot being shot.  He needs to go.  Now.


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## Fish (May 24, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I must have a good constitution then. I regularly drive from Perth to Northampton non-stop. 400 miles - six hours.  

Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			That's a dangerous practice imo. Stopping is definitely recommended - for your own, and others, safety. If you don't need at least 1 loo-break, you are probably also getting dehydrated even if taking on fluids (air conditioning will do that!) which is another potential killer. I used to drive that distance frequently (between Surrey and Edinburgh) and made sure I stopped every couple of hours. Tebay Services was always a highlight!
		
Click to expand...

6 hours is too long for a continuous drive, in any vehicle, even without the quickest of stops to just stretch your legs and have a change of focus, even if your bladder is capable of going that long without popping!

But Cummings journey of 4-4.5hrs is ok, after-all, we can drive HGV’s for 4.5hrs continuously, so that period of time must be scientifically proven to be safe, as it’s a matter of law.

I’d think nothing of driving from London to Durham in a single hit, I’ve done Leicester to Blackburn just outside of Aberdeen a few times.

I think there’s much more to come from this, and I think it won’t matter how much government try to justify Cummings travel, they will lose a huge amount of public support to follow the current guidelines or laws, and we’ll see more people travelling and going out, unnecessarily!

I’ve seen a huge increase in traffic on the roads over the last week, so congestion & accidents are on the rise every day, and this increase isn’t people travelling back to work, they’re families in cars & campers, even the odd caravan!

This Cummings incident will only fuel those who are sceptical or are against the lockdown, and will use it as a case in point to go out themselves. 

I’m as blue as they come, but someone needs to show some teethe this time and remove Cummings.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

On 5th April, after being told by members of the public that Cummings had been seen in Durham, The Guardian asked Number 10 if it was true. No 10 refused to comment. 

On 10th April, The Guardian asked again, and again No 10 refused to comment.

On Friday, The Guardian got the confirmation it needed from Durham Police. At 7pm they asked No 10 again. No 10 refused to comment, but by 8pm when the story broke, they had given Kuenssberg an off the record briefing in an attempt at damage limitation.

So it seems very likely that Johnson knew as far back as early April where Cummings was. The only surprise is he didn't get on the phone and tell him either get his backside down to London pdq, or failing that keep well out of sight. Dancing around his parents garden to Abba was certainly not a very bright idea.


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## chellie (May 24, 2020)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/2o5vyO2W78">pic.twitter.com/2o5vyO2W78</a></p>&mdash; TheRealDanieltheSpaniel*stayhome* (@RAFpolicedog) <a href="



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264462500650799105">May 24, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2020)

So he was in Durham when it just so happened to be his mum’s birthday and Barnard Castle when it was his wife’s. That’s coincidental isn’t it.


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## chellie (May 24, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264475868887494663


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2020)

Lets be honest, if nothing is done about him or he doesn't act himself how can they complain if the whole population ignores whatever the Govt says on movement. I would suggest their credibility is in the balance right now.


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## Fish (May 24, 2020)

He’s just been summoned and seen entering Downing Street, I think he’ll be going, we’ll never know if he’s paid off, I doubt it will be a sacking, it’ll be a ‘mutual agreement’ jobbie with a brown envelope, either way, I think it’s too damaging and Boris will convince him he can’t stay.


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## Rlburnside (May 24, 2020)

The knives are coming out now, 8 Tory MPs have come out and said he’s got to go. 

Press conference put back a hour, interesting to see if Boris will keep him.


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## larmen (May 24, 2020)

What happened to ‘it’s for the best of a child’? Is that line still what everyone is defending him with?


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## Rlburnside (May 24, 2020)

No surprise there then , hypocrisy from the PM and some of his ministers.


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## Fish (May 24, 2020)




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## Kellfire (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30833

Click to expand...

It’s weird how some people are so actively ok with being lied to. Why are you ok with your government mocking you?


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30833

Click to expand...

Yes, after that performance the left is the real issue and talking point here....


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## funkycoldmedina (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, after that performance the left is the real issue and talking point here....
		
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I think it's called bantz......


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30833

Click to expand...

I think half of the right would be the same...even Tory MPs breaking rank saying he needs to go


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## fundy (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30833

Click to expand...


pretty sure thats actually most of those who have supported this government up until now


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## rulefan (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So it seems very likely that Johnson knew as far back as early April where Cummings was.
		
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Can I take it that this is fact?


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## Fish (May 24, 2020)

😂😂 knew I should have been a fisherman 🎣

#AllTheUsualSuspects 😜


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## funkycoldmedina (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			😂😂 new I should have been a fisherman 🎣

#AllTheUsualSuspects 😜
		
Click to expand...

King of bantz
Bantersaurus
Bantzmeister General


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## Pathetic Shark (May 24, 2020)

All the good work done by the Government is being undone right now …. just total stupidity on all parts.


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## williamalex1 (May 24, 2020)

Looks like Boris took advice from his senior adviser


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2020)

Not all heroes wear capes.


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## jim8flog (May 24, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			The knives are coming out now, 8 Tory MPs have come out and said he’s got to go.

Press conference put back a hour, interesting to see if Boris will keep him.
		
Click to expand...

 Typical BoJo -  ignore the question and keep saying the same thing. Absolutely no response to Peston's question. Quickly on to the next interviewer without allowing a response from the questioners unlike other briefings.


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## Wildboy370 (May 24, 2020)

So when boris said we are all in this together, he really meant his special advisor can drive about spreading the virus all over the north of England.
Every ounce of credibility this government and Boris after catching the damn thing had has just gone out the window. Me some how things the in depth talks went a little like this.. Boris “ what happend Dominic, do you realise how bad this looks ? “. Dominic. “ LooK Boris without me your nothing, I made you and I will crush you ok, so nothing happened simple “ Boris “ All good Here then “ Spineless, weak and a civil servants puppet


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## rulefan (May 24, 2020)

Can someone quote the exact and full wording of the guidance and rules in force at the time. And point out which Cummings breached and which clauses he is using as his justification.

If you don't know the answers second part there is no point in answering as it is simply a one sided argument. I am interested in knowing if there is any merit in his case.


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## Crow (May 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Can someone quote the exact and full wording of the guidance and rules in force at the time. And point out which Cummings breached and which clauses he is using as his justification.

If you don't know the answers second part there is no point in answering as it is simply a one sided argument. I am interested in knowing if there is any merit in his case.
		
Click to expand...

Rules have nothing to do with this, this is about integrity and respect and trust and what ever other noble words you can remember that Boris used in his shambles of a briefing.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Can someone quote the exact and full wording of the guidance and rules in force at the time*. And point out which Cummings breached and which clauses he is using as his justification.

If you don't know the answers second part there is no point in answering as it is simply a one sided argument. I am interested in knowing if there is any merit in his case.
		
Click to expand...

Stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives.  And he breached the 1st bit, so by default also the 2nd and 3rd bit.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Can someone quote the exact and full wording of the guidance and rules in force at the time. And point out which Cummings breached and which clauses he is using as his justification.

If you don't know the answers second part there is no point in answering as it is simply a one sided argument. I am interested in knowing if there is any merit in his case.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if this helps, I believe the bit in bold is the bit he’s using, whether that allowed someone to drive a certain distance for that is unclear.

March 23:  Prime Minister Boris Johnson orders a strict UK lockdown urging the British public to ‘Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives’.

March 24: England’s deputy chief medical officer, Dr Jenny Harris, is asked what her advice would be if parents with children become sick:

“Clearly if you have adults who are unable to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance.

“...if the individuals do not have access to care support, formal care support *or access to family*, they will be able to work through their local authority hubs.”

March 27: Mr Johnson and Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, announce that they have tested positive for the coronavirus. Mr Cummings is seen leaving No 10 Downing Street shortly after the announcement.

March 28/29: Downing St confirms that Mr Cummings had started displaying coronavirus symptoms “over the weekend” of March 28-29.

March 30: Downing St confirms that Mr Cummings and his wife Mary Wakefield are self-isolating in their London home after developing symptoms of the virus. Although the exact date is unclear, it has emerged that around this time Mr Cummings and Ms Wakefield, together with their young son, drove to an address in Durham, 260 miles from London.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2020)

On an aside:-

Think that Steve Baker saw an opportunity to increase his profile within the Conservative party at the expense of Cummings, but it now seems to have backfired badly

Cummings hasn’t resigned, Boris has bluffed his way through another crisis

Those Tory MP’s calling for Cummings head will be sidelined, irrespective of ability, probably summoned to a meeting at No 10 without biscuits

Given Boris’ history maybe even deselection beckons


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## Pathetic Shark (May 24, 2020)

Ah the hypocrisy from Piers Moron asking Boris "what has Dominic Cummings got on you?"

So how exactly did you re-launch your career then Piers after you were sacked from the Daily Mirror for publishing those fake photos …..


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## rulefan (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives.  And he breached the 1st bit, so by default also the 2nd and 3rd bit.
		
Click to expand...

_" ... and which clauses he is using as his justification"_

So only half the story.


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## rulefan (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure if this helps, I believe the bit in bold is the bit he’s using, whether that allowed someone to drive a certain distance for that is unclear.

“Clearly if you have adults who are unable to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance.

“...if the individuals do not have access to care support, formal care support *or access to family*, they will be able to work through their local authority hubs.”
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I have not seen what he has actually said about the embolded words. But I understand his family are in Durham. I wonder how many were aware of that statement.

Edit: I have no time for the man or his actions but I have only seen one side of the story as yet.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thank you. I have not seen what he has actually said about the embolded words. But I understand his family are in Durham. I wonder how many were aware of that statement.

Edit: I have no time for the man or his actions but I have only seen one side of the story as yet.
		
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That’s because “his side” has only come out through No10 press releases and his comment to the media outside his home that he doesn’t care what they think.

I genuinely think he doesn’t believe he has to say anything.


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## Wildboy370 (May 24, 2020)

Fact 1. He didnt stay at home, but Downing Street said he did.
Fact 2. He said he went for childcare, but never used it they all stayed in same house. Which he could of done in London.
Fact 3. He has never said if he stopped on route, there fore putting at risk unsuspecting people and their families.
Fact 4. Everyone is dodging the Barnard Castle issue.
Fact 5. Both him, Downing Street and his family said they never spoke or were spoken to by police. But Police say they did twice. 

Who cares what the guidelines say he and others have lied and covered up while others have suffered massively because he told us to stay put.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Fact 1. He didnt stay at home, but Downing Street said he did.
Fact 2. He said he went for childcare, but never used it they all stayed in same house. Which he could of done in London.
Fact 3. He has never said if he stopped on route, there fore putting at risk unsuspecting people and their families.
Fact 4. Everyone is dodging the Barnard Castle issue.
Fact 5. Both him, Downing Street and his family said they never spoke or were spoken to by police. But Police say they did twice. 

Who cares what the guidelines say he and others have lied and covered up while others have suffered massively because he told us to stay put.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.

Since lockdown I have worked a lot more than normal covering those shielding at work. In turn my 5 month pregnent wife (twins so even harder for her) has been alone a lot with our nearly 3 year old full of life daughter.

My parents (dad retired right at start, mum been working from home basically) live 1 mile drive

Her parents (dad furloughed, mum working from home and going in once every 2 weeks basically)
Live 10 mile away

Both are desperate to help out us, plus see their granddaughter.

Didn't break the lockdown, felt bad driving to see them through the window of the car. Apparently though childcare top trumps lockdown so all bets are now off


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## bobmac (May 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently though childcare top trumps lockdown so all bets are now off
		
Click to expand...

Does that mean you are going to break the lockdown rules?


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## 2blue (May 25, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30833

Click to expand...

Plus...........   anyone in their right mind & not on another Planet.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Does that mean you are going to break the lockdown rules?
		
Click to expand...

but after this its clear he wouldn't be breaking any rules?


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but after this its clear he wouldn't be breaking any rules?
		
Click to expand...

Are there any rules now? I thought the official line now is "act on your instinct".


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Are there any rules now? I thought the official line now is "act on your instinct".
		
Click to expand...

Its had the ringing endorsement of another Gov minister who was sacked for lying and breaking the Official secrets  act, what more do you need


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## bobmac (May 25, 2020)

Cummings is in a privileged position with friends in high places who got him out of trouble when he broke the rules.
Boris wont be there for eveyone who breaks the rules and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
''He did it so I can do it'' is no defence.
The virus is still out there


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Cummings is in a privileged position with friends in high places who got him out of trouble when he broke the rules.
Boris wont be there for eveyone who breaks the rules and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
''He did it so I can do it'' is no defence.
The virus is still out there
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Unfortunately a significant number of people will now think they can do as they please now.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Cummings is in a privileged position with friends in high places who got him out of trouble when he broke the rules.
Boris wont be there for eveyone who breaks the rules and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
''He did it so I can do it'' is no defence.
The virus is still out there
		
Click to expand...

The last sentence is the critical part that people may well forget in a rush to prove a point. Cummings put his parents at risk by going up there, apart from members of the general public potentially. If people rush to see their parents and inlaws in order to "show the govt" then what they are actually doing is putting them at risk. Don't be as stupid or selfish as Cummings, protect your elderly relatives still.


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The last sentence is the critical part that people may well forget in a rush to prove a point. Cummings put his parents at risk by going up there, apart from members of the general public potentially. *If people rush to see their parents and inlaws in order to "show the govt" then what they are actually doing is putting them at risk. Don't be as stupid or selfish as Cummings, protect your elderly relatives still*.
		
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Maybe someone could highlight this point to my brother and sister, idiots decided if it's ok for Cummings then ite okay for them and went to visit my parents yesterday together in the same car which would effectively bring 3 separate households together 😡

Fortunately my dad didn't answer the door and made them stand outside porch seeing them through the glass. Absolute idiotic behaviour 🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Its had the ringing endorsement of another Gov minister who was sacked for lying and breaking the Official secrets  act, what more do you need

Click to expand...

I saw that, Minister who was sacked for lying to PM May says Cummings would not lie to the PM.
What a bunch of Charlatans, lying their socks off to save themselves and their leader.
I wonder how history will judge them.


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## Fromtherough (May 25, 2020)

Cummings should go. It’s now an unrecoverable position. The Tories have handled this awfully, their credibility has took more than a knock and it kind of reinforces some of the elitist ‘do as I say not as I do’ views they’ve previously been slated for. 

The paparazzi outside Cummings’ house yesterday and the media outlets they serve are just as bad. All huddled together. Ironic, especially the charver in the face-mask. How that is ok I’ll never know.


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2020)

Seemingly anyone that was fined for breaking the lockdown rules can now get a refund, under the new Cummings and goings Act.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The last sentence is the critical part that people may well forget in a rush to prove a point. Cummings put his parents at risk by going up there, apart from members of the general public potentially. If people rush to see their parents and inlaws in order to "show the govt" then what they are actually doing is putting them at risk. Don't be as stupid or selfish as Cummings, protect your elderly relatives still.
		
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Did he actually meet his parents? I thought he was in a separate house.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Fact 5. Both him, Downing Street and his family said they never spoke or were spoken to by police. But Police say they did twice.
		
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His family and his household are two different things. The police used the word 'family' meaning his parents. It appears they did not speak to anyone in his household.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			His family and his household are two different things. The police used the word 'family' meaning his parents. It appears they did not speak to anyone in his household.
		
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I believe his Father called the Police and the discussion was over security.


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw that, Minister who was sacked for lying to PM May says *Cummings would not lie to the PM, who has also been sacked twice for lying*.
What a bunch of Charlatans, lying their socks off to save themselves and their leader.
I wonder how history will judge them.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

I just wonder why if Cummings was so sure that driving to Durham was perfectly acceptable, his wife's article in The Spectator about their covid experience doesn't mention being in Durham at all.
She even mentions emerging "from quarantine into the almost comical uncertainty of London lockdown". No mention of having to drive 4 hours back to London


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			I just wonder why if Cummings was so sure that driving to Durham was perfectly acceptable, his wife's article in The Spectator about their covid experience doesn't mention being in Durham at all.
She even mentions emerging "from quarantine into the almost comical uncertainty of London lockdown". No mention of having to drive 4 hours back to London
		
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Yes, you thought she might have mentioned the beautiful sight of bluebells in the woods, or the lovely walk beside the river in Barnard Castle.


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## clubchamp98 (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			His family and his household are two different things. The police used the word 'family' meaning his parents. It appears they did not speak to anyone in his household.
		
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I would think household covers all the buildings on the property.
So he broke the recommendations then his father called the police to make sure he was safe.
Safe from who? The public by the looks of it, you couldn’t make this up it’s really poor from Cummings.


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## bluewolf (May 25, 2020)

Right, I’ve had a couple of days to think about this now. If I take Cummings explanation at face value (And I’m not sure that I do as there appears to be glaring holes in it), then I might have done exactly the same thing in his situation. If the welfare of my children was at risk, and there was (inexplicably) no one in London that I could rely on then I would’ve travelled to be closer to family...

However, where we differ is that once it became known that I’d done this I’d have immediately resigned. 
Sometimes bad situations force us to make bad decisions. I understand that completely. To compound that bad decision with further bad decisions is unforgivable...


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2020)

I am not defending Cummings because I think , with his connections and resources he could have handled his problem differently.

The problem was potentially serious.
His wife had symptoms: he knew he would get them.
He assumed rightly that they would both get Covid, and they had a four yr old son to look after. 
Chances were they would soon be so affected that they could not look after him.
They might even finish up in hospital.

(As an aside, this scenario could be the one for thousands of young couples.)

So, how to best care for the boy.? He needs to go to someone to look after him.
before they maybe become incapacitated.

Best I can make out, Cummings has a sister up North. His parents are there too. 

Can she drive down to pick up the boy?
If not able to drive, is there someone who can drive her?
If not, can *she *transport the boy at all?

If not, who can?
What about her relatives? Can they help re transport.?

Being in the job he has, no doubt there are aides who can do so, but will a four yr old boy travel with a relative or complete stranger?

What was the situation.?  Don't know, do we.?

What can/ would anyone of us do in such circumstances?


One fact is clear. The son had to leave the house and live elsewhere.

The best I can come up with, without detailed analysis, is that provision should have been available within the guidelines/rules for written permission to be available from , say, a chief of Police for travel,  in circumstances where all other avenues are exhausted.  They would be rare circumstances ( e.g where family or friends couldn't help out) but the rules should have anticipated that some such worst case scenario situations would arise.
But at least when such applications to be an exception to the rule would have been made, it would have been upfront and seen to be proper.

As always, we know just a bit of the situation . In this case, some think the boy was going to live with the grandparents! Some think with the sister elsewhere than with the grandparents. Some think with the sister in the same place as the grandparents, but isolated from them. Some  think there was no non -contact  with relatives considerations at all- just, I want to go to Durham etc.

It has inevitably become political, to the extent that there is a danger that the winner from this could be Covid . People deciding to ignore SD etc because 
the Government think the rules don't apply to them , etc etc.

The PM ( and Cummings) has to consider now this effect above all others, and so  Cummings should resign, or be made to do so.


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## garyinderry (May 25, 2020)

The problem is.  At that time. The advice given was if you start showing symptoms, you isolate with your family. 
I took that to mean, if one of you get it, the likelihood is both myself and my partner will get it. 
We were also told that the majority of people will only experience mild symptoms. Unpleasant all the same for a week or two but ultimately we will get through it and wont need urgent medical treatment. 
This treatment would be available if necessary and that is why we are all staying at home to protect the NHS. 

Neither myself nor Cummings are in a vulnerable category. As far as I am aware his child isn't either. 

From my view, he either panicked and didnt believe his own advice, or thought he was above the rules of the land.

Either way. He should have been sacked. 

On a side note, do people normally turn up for meetings at number 10 looking like that? It seems to be he has little respect for his position or the nation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am not defending Cummings because I think , with his connections and resources he could have handled his problem differently.

The problem was potentially serious.
His wife had symptoms: he knew he would get them.
He assumed rightly that they would both get Covid, and they had a four yr old son to look after.
Chances were they would soon be so affected that they could not look after him.
They might even finish up in hospital.

(As an aside, this scenario could be the one for thousands of young couples.)

So, how to best care for the boy.? He needs to go to someone to look after him.
before they maybe become incapacitated.

Best I can make out, Cummings has a sister up North. His parents are there too.

Can she drive down to pick up the boy?
If not able to drive, is there someone who can drive her?
If not, can *she *transport the boy at all?

If not, who can?
What about her relatives? Can they help re transport.?

Being in the job he has, no doubt there are aides who can do so, but will a four yr old boy travel with a relative or complete stranger?

What was the situation.?  Don't know, do we.?

What can/ would anyone of us do in such circumstances?


*One fact is clear. The son had to leave the house and live elsewhere.*

The best I can come up with, without detailed analysis, is that provision should have been available within the guidelines/rules for written permission to be available from , say, a chief of Police for travel,  in circumstances where all other avenues are exhausted.  They would be rare circumstances ( e.g where family or friends couldn't help out) but the rules should have anticipated that some such worst case scenario situations would arise.
But at least when such applications to be an exception to the rule would have been made, it would have been upfront and seen to be proper.

As always, we know just a bit of the situation . In this case, some think the boy was going to live with the grandparents! Some think with the sister elsewhere than with the grandparents. Some think with the sister in the same place as the grandparents, but isolated from them. Some  think there was no non -contact  with relatives considerations at all- just, I want to go to Durham etc.

It has inevitably become political, to the extent that there is a danger that the winner from this could be Covid . People deciding to ignore SD etc because
the Government think the rules don't apply to them , etc etc.

The PM ( and Cummings) has to consider now this effect above all others, and so  Cummings should resign, or be made to do so.
		
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Re the bit in bold, not true, he stayed with his parents in Durham and sister delivered food to their door.

His mother even wrote about her and the kid looking after daddy (sticky ribena, dressing up as a doctor)


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold, not true, he stayed with his parents in Durham and sister delivered food to their door.

His mother even wrote about her and the kid looking after daddy (sticky ribena, dressing up as a doctor)
		
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Not sure you understood what I was saying there. Which was
Cummings and wife in London home with son, according to rules, shouldn't move from there for some days, nor receive visitors. At the time he made his decision he considered the possibility that both he and wife could become incapacitated, I.e the virus affect them seriously.
There could be a possibility that the  child became alone in the flat with two very ill parents.
Rather than wait to see if that happened, most parents would try to make arrangements for the child to be elsewhere, yes?


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

The thing is, Cummings should have known this would come out. He should have premepted this by being open. On the contrary , Mary Wakefields  article hides the fact that they ever left london. As it is, he just looks like he doesn't give a stuff


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure if this helps, I believe the bit in bold is the bit he’s using, whether that allowed someone to drive a certain distance for that is unclear.

March 23:  Prime Minister Boris Johnson orders a strict UK lockdown urging the British public to ‘Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives’.

March 24: England’s deputy chief medical officer, Dr Jenny Harris, is asked what her advice would be if parents with children become sick:

“Clearly if you have adults who are unable to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance.

“...if the individuals do not have access to care support, formal care support *or access to family*, they will be able to work through their local authority hubs.”

March 27: Mr Johnson and Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, announce that they have tested positive for the coronavirus. Mr Cummings is seen leaving No 10 Downing Street shortly after the announcement.

March 28/29: Downing St confirms that Mr Cummings had started displaying coronavirus symptoms “over the weekend” of March 28-29.

March 30: Downing St confirms that Mr Cummings and his wife Mary Wakefield are self-isolating in their London home after developing symptoms of the virus. Although the exact date is unclear, it has emerged that around this time Mr Cummings and Ms Wakefield, together with their young son, drove to an address in Durham, 260 miles from London.
		
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One might suggest that Cummings did not have access to family in Durham as he would have to break rules to have that access.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would think household covers all the buildings on the property.
So he broke the recommendations then his father called the police to make sure he was safe.
Safe from who? The public by the looks of it, you couldn’t make this up it’s really poor from Cummings.
		
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I smile as I recollect once when working on a very secure government service I had to pull up a team for regular breaches of security - unfortunately the email that I sent round itself breached security rules and so I had to report myself to security and take the ticking off 🙄


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did he actually meet his parents? I thought he was in a separate house.
		
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The whole premise of the trip was to go to his parents so that they could look after their son if he followed his wife and contracted the virus as well. 

So, in the car is his wife with a highly aggressive virus. They then put their son in that car with them, enclosed for the 4 hour journey to his parents. Pretty good chance all, 3 arrive contracted with the disease, that is assuming they didn't all start with it, only 1 showing symptoms though. If Cummings and his wife came down with the virus, they both did, and became incapacitated, don't think they did in the end, then the parents would have been expected to look after the child, the whole point of the journey. The child, likely to be a carrier at this point, is then being looked after by elderly people in the vulnerable group.

The above description is a logical conclusion of their plan. I have no idea if they did mix, whether they stayed entirely separate but without question they took covid with them to a place that didn't have it and had the parents been required, after all the whole point of the trip, then they would have been put at risk.


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The last sentence is the critical part that people may well forget in a rush to prove a point. Cummings put his parents at risk by going up there, apart from members of the general public potentially. If people rush to see their parents and inlaws in order to "show the govt" then what they are actually doing is putting them at risk. Don't be as stupid or selfish as Cummings, protect your elderly relatives still.
		
Click to expand...

Cummings defence is using his instincts.
My instinct tells me to not to rush round and see all my friends and relatives


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The whole premise of the trip was to go to his parents so that they could look after their son if he followed his wife and contracted the virus as well.

So, in the car is his wife with a highly aggressive virus. They then put their son in that car with them, enclosed for the 4 hour journey to his parents. Pretty good chance all, 3 arrive contracted with the disease, that is assuming they didn't all start with it, only 1 showing symptoms though. If Cummings and his wife came down with the virus, they both did, and became incapacitated, don't think they did in the end, then the parents would have been expected to look after the child, the whole point of the journey. The child, likely to be a carrier at this point, is then being looked after by elderly people in the vulnerable group.

The above description is a logical conclusion of their plan. I have no idea if they did mix, whether they stayed entirely separate but without question they took covid with them to a place that didn't have it and had the parents been required, after all the whole point of the trip, then they would have been put at risk.
		
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I think the plan was for his sister in Durham, not his parents, to assist


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			I think the plan was for his sister in Durham, not his parents, to assist
		
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Fair enough. By being on the parents farm whilst knowingly infected he is still increasing their risk though. It is not a risk I would have taken with my mum.

This is all on top of everything else.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			I think the plan was for his sister in Durham, not his parents, to assist
		
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Could be. As I say, some believe this, some believe that.
I strongly believe that they were taking the son to be looked after be someone else. I think it would be the sister. I cannot see that he would take his son to be in the same company as his parents. He would have known the son was a likely carrier at least. Most likely infected, though mildly. 
So it would be daft to put in same company as his parents.
His sister must have agreed to the risk , though if she was to look after him.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure you understood what I was saying there. Which was
Cummings and wife in London home with son, according to rules, shouldn't move from there for some days, nor receive visitors. At the time he made his decision he considered the possibility that both he and wife could become incapacitated, I.e the virus affect them seriously.
There could be a possibility that the  child became alone in the flat with two very ill parents.
Rather than wait to see if that happened, most parents would try to make arrangements for the child to be elsewhere, yes?
		
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You  have forced your point, we all get it.

Question I have to ask you is why was it covered up, if he had grounds as Johnson has repeatedly said, why not let everyone know.
What were they afraid of, Johnson must have known of Cummings movements at the end of March. Why did Cummings wife not mention their move in her scribblings
People may have disagreed if the Tory Party had been upfront about it but perhaps they would have understood.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure you understood what I was saying there. Which was
Cummings and wife in London home with son, according to rules, shouldn't move from there for some days, nor receive visitors. At the time he made his decision he considered the possibility that both he and wife could become incapacitated, I.e the virus affect them seriously.
There could be a possibility that the  child became alone in the flat with two very ill parents.
Rather than wait to see if that happened, most parents would try to make arrangements for the child to be elsewhere, yes?
		
Click to expand...

They don't live in a flat its a 3 story town house and i believe they also employ a nanny


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## Imurg (May 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264885127970250753


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Should Stephen Kinnock and Tahir Ali who are both MPs resign over breaking the lockdown rules and why are they not recieving the same level of media attention as Cummings


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## Beezerk (May 25, 2020)

I'm now just waiting for football clubs to sack all the players who broke the lockdown rules...

That was a joke btw before anyone jumps down my throat


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## clubchamp98 (May 25, 2020)

Imurg said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264885127970250753

Click to expand...

That could be a Prince Andrew moment!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Should Stephen Kinnock and Tahir Ali who are both MPs resign over breaking the lockdown rules and why are they not recieving the same level of media attention as Cummings
		
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Yes, along with the tory MP’s who broke the rules and politicians from any other party as well.
This isn’t a Labour v tory issue as some would like to make out.
One further question do Kinnock or Ali have any say in Government policy?


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure you understood what I was saying there. Which was
Cummings and wife in London home with son, according to rules, shouldn't move from there for some days, nor receive visitors. At the time he made his decision he considered the possibility that both he and wife could become incapacitated, I.e the virus affect them seriously.
*There could be a possibility that the  child became alone in the flat with two very ill parents.
Rather than wait to see if that happened, most parents would try to make arrangements for the child to be elsewhere, yes*?
		
Click to expand...

So by that logic, seeing as at the time of the journey only 1 parent had it, as soon as anyone gets it, if they have children, they have the right to drive where they want to? 

I am sure most parents would want to do what he did. It's just that we were all being told to stay at home and isolate.


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

I'm having such fun with this meme generator


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## User20205 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Should Stephen Kinnock and Tahir Ali who are both MPs resign over breaking the lockdown rules and why are they not recieving the same level of media attention as Cummings
		
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It’s all a game of political football. The political class & the media are happy to carry on whilst (mainly) ignoring the economic tidal wave that will hit in 6-8 weeks. I’m of the same view as in the Scottish case, if him being in place is the best for the country he should stay. If not, he shouldn’t be there anyway.
The lockdown seems to have been ambiguous enough to give some justification for his actions


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## rosecott (May 25, 2020)

I have no absolute knowledge of the events that took place involving Cummings and his family as, like everyone else, I rely on our media to keep me informed. What really makes me very uneasy is the widespread "lynch mob" attitude surrounding the issue.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Cummings to make a statement this pm and answer questions.
I take it the 'taking questions' bit means he is not resigning.


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## Grant85 (May 25, 2020)

I don't think breaking lockdown is a resignation issue in itself if it's minor or in part justifiable. 

The situation with Calderwood was she made an apology and might have clung on, had it not emerged she had made a 2nd trip. 

Personally everyone deserves a second chance, but she burned hers by taking the same action on consecutive weekends. 

In Cummings case, I feel this is a far more serious breach given he travelled while showing symptoms. Possibly infecting petrol stations and service stations toilets en route, as well as emergency workers and first res-ponders in the event of an accident (unlikely, but more likely if you have Coronavirus).  

The situation of 'moving to get child care for his son' but then claiming he stayed in a separate property to his parents seems bizarre and hard to believe. If that's the case, it seems barely worth moving. He surely had friends and family in London who could have taken the son, or driven him to Durham, if they really were both hospitalised or unable to provide basic care for a 4 year old. 

And of course the other stories that there was a day trip to Barnard Castle and he was possibly out walking in the woods when he should have been in isolation and also made a return trip mid-April all stack up against him.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s all a game of political football. The political class & the media are happy to carry on whilst (mainly) ignoring the economic tidal wave that will hit in 6-8 weeks. I’m of the same view as in the Scottish case, if him being in place is the best for the country he should stay. If not, he shouldn’t be there anyway.
The lockdown seems to have been ambiguous enough to give some justification for his actions
		
Click to expand...

The Scottish case revolved around the fact that no one would take Calderwoods advice seriously in any future statements.
Same applies to Cummings IMO


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, along with the tory MP’s who broke the rules and politicians from any other party as well.
This isn’t a Labour v tory issue as some would like to make out.
One further question do Kinnock or Ali have any say in Government policy?
		
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I'm not aware of any other Mps of any political persuasion but please add them if there are.
They are MPs Cummings isn't but that's not important, if they broke the rules surley they need to resign, in a way it's worse for Mps of any party. But what I can't understand is why they are not getting the same level of media attention and why are people on here not angry that theyre not been told to go.


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## User20205 (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Scottish case revolved around the fact that no one would take Calderwoods advice seriously in any future statements.
Same applies to Cummings IMO
		
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 Cummings doesn’t give advice, he, I believe shapes policy based on advice given. He does big picture stuff. 
I don’t especially like him, he seems like a bit of an entitled knob, but all of the hysteria is politically motivated.
They will be some who feel aggrieved because of personal circumstance, but the majority of this pious outrage is faux, politically driven nonsense.
IMO. 
Pretty sure there are more important things to dominate the news agenda


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'm now just waiting for football clubs to sack all the players who broke the lockdown rules...

That was a joke btw before anyone jumps down my throat 

Click to expand...

If Kyle Walker, Jack Grealish etc are advising the govt on lockdown policy then we really are in trouble 😯 😄. Until then, they are just in the category marked footballer and we just add a few rolling eye emojis and get on with thing🙄🙄🙄 😆


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Kyle Walker, Jack Grealish etc are advising the govt on lockdown policy then we really are in trouble 😯 😄. Until then, they are just in the category marked footballer and we just add a few rolling eye emojis and get on with thing🙄🙄🙄 😆
		
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Do you know Cummings advises on lockdown procedure.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not aware of any other Mps of any political persuasion but please add them if there are.
They are MPs Cummings isn't but that's not important, if they broke the rules surley they need to resign, in a way it's worse for Mps of any party. But what I can't understand is why they are not getting the same level of media attention and why are people on here not angry that theyre not been told to go.
		
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Jenrick for one, PM? Is Chequers his official home? and currently it’s been 3 Days on cummings, Kinnock was over a month ago.

Are you seriously suggesting you don’t see a difference between somebody on the inside of government policy at the highest level and an opposition MP.

Why was the scientist removed?


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Scottish case revolved around the fact that no one would take Calderwoods advice seriously in any future statements.
Same applies to Cummings IMO
		
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Well if that's the only thing that matters, then he's safe! He's BoJo's advisor and Bojo has expressed confidence in him, so that's all that counts!
Not my idea of 'appropriate', but not my decision! However, I don't expect 'the Press' to give up easily on what has now become something of a 'willy-waving contest'!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know Cummings advises on lockdown procedure.
		
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He is the senior advisor to the pm, he attends appropriate meetings although we are told he does not speak. This is the number one issue right now for this govt. It would be pretty surprising if he did not make the odd suggestion. If he didn't then what else is he advising on right now?


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## pauljames87 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know Cummings advises on lockdown procedure.
		
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Considering he was pushing herd immunity and sits on sage (without being a scientist) then yes he does advise on the lock down

His pushing of herd to protect the economy pushed lockdown back a few weeks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

therod said:



			Cummings doesn’t give advice, he, I believe shapes policy based on advice given. He does big picture stuff.
I don’t especially like him, he seems like a bit of an entitled knob, but all of the hysteria is politically motivated.
They will be some who feel aggrieved because of personal circumstance, but the majority of this pious outrage is faux, politically driven nonsense.
IMO.
Pretty sure there are more important things to dominate the news agenda
		
Click to expand...

How do you explain the opinions of the tory mp’s who have publicly stated he should resign or the scientists who have spoken out?


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not aware of any other Mps of any political persuasion but please add them if there are.
They are MPs Cummings isn't but that's not important, if they broke the rules surley they need to resign, in a way it's worse for Mps of any party. But what I can't understand is why they are not getting the same level of media attention and why are people on here not angry that theyre not been told to go.
		
Click to expand...

So it’s just a case of whataboutery ?

Can you really not understand why Cummings would be getting a lot more media attention than others ?


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## User20205 (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How do you explain the opinions of the tory mp’s who have publicly stated he should resign or the scientists who have spoken out?
		
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 everyone has an angle


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

therod said:



			everyone has an angle
		
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Can’t all be politically motivated then.


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## chellie (May 25, 2020)

Cummings - doesn't give a crap about anyone else. Like so many in power.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

therod said:



			Cummings doesn’t give advice, he, I believe shapes policy based on advice given. He does big picture stuff.
I don’t especially like him, he seems like a bit of an entitled knob, but all of the hysteria is politically motivated.
They will be some who feel aggrieved because of personal circumstance, but the majority of this pious outrage is faux, politically driven nonsense.
IMO.
Pretty sure there are more important things to dominate the news agenda
		
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He gives advice on shaping policy then.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

PaulS said:



			So it’s just a case of whataboutery ?

Can you really not understand why Cummings would be getting a lot more media attention than others ?
		
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I can understand and my understanding is that it's uneven attention. I wouldn't like to see anyone having to experience the way the media have hounded him.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Jenrick for one, PM? Is Chequers his official home? and currently it’s been 3 Days on cummings, Kinnock was over a month ago.

Are you seriously suggesting you don’t see a difference between somebody on the inside of government policy at the highest level and an opposition MP.
Why was the scientist removed?
		
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Breaking rules either requires people in politics resigning or it doesn't,  you say it's not party political but can you imagine what would happen if it was Reese Mogg instead of Kinnock.


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I can understand and my understanding is that it's uneven attention. I wouldn't like to see anyone having to experience way the media have hounded him.
		
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It’s not really new though , public figures have been hounded by the media for decades.

The Aide to the PM and indeed the PM himself have shot themselves in the foot, the media are hounding him because of his actions of which for many are unforgivable. The Aide is a very public and was at the heart of the recent Brexit issues and clearly seems to be very trusted by the PM , so much so that he is happy to excuse behaviour that he has pleaded with the General public to avoid.

There have been growing dissatisfaction towards the government in regards their handling of this pandemic , any good they have done keeps getting overshadowed by the bad. You can’t get much worse than someone who helped make the rules goes on to break the rules

And shows how highly the PM rates when he is about it go in front of the cameras.

Right now we should be looking at the positives- 77 new deaths down significantly, we seem to be moving to new phases relaxing restrictions but instead the talk is about an Aide


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

PaulS said:



			It’s not really new though , public figures have been hounded by the media for decades.

The Aide to the PM and indeed the PM himself have shot themselves in the foot, the media are hounding him because of his actions of which for many are unforgivable. The Aide is a very public and was at the heart of the recent Brexit issues and clearly seems to be very trusted by the PM , so much so that he is happy to excuse behaviour that he has pleaded with the General public to avoid.

There have been growing dissatisfaction towards the government in regards their handling of this pandemic , any good they have done keeps getting overshadowed by the bad. You can’t get much worse than someone who helped make the rules goes on to break the rules

And shows how highly the PM rates when he is about it go in front of the cameras.

Right now we should be looking at the positives- 77 new deaths down significantly, we seem to be moving to new phases relaxing restrictions but instead the talk is about an Aide
		
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Most of that is opinion, you are of course entitled to it but it's not an opinion I agree with and I guess I am also entitled to my opinion.

I have said a number of times here that if Cummins broke the rules he should be dealt with accordingly just like some MPs who broke the rules.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

chellie said:



			Cummings - doesn't give a crap about anyone else. Like so many in power.
		
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Hes not in power though.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He is the senior advisor to the pm, he attends appropriate meetings although we are told he does not speak. This is the number one issue right now for this govt. It would be pretty surprising if he did not make the odd suggestion. If he didn't then what else is he advising on right now?
		
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Do you think he gets involved with making any of the detail in the lockdown rules.


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of that is opinion, you are of course entitled to it but it's not an opinion I agree with and I guess I am also entitled to my opinion also.

I have said a number of times here that if Cummins broke the rules he should be dealt with accordingly just like some MPs who broke the rules.
		
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Of course it’s an opinion ? What else would it be , thought that’s what posting on forums was all about , giving opinions surely ?

And he clearly broke the rules.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hes not in power though.
		
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I would suggest he has way more "power" than the vast majority that have been elected to represent us in government...


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## clubchamp98 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think he gets involved with making any of the detail in the lockdown rules.
		
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That’s part of the problem ,nobody knows what he does advise on.
If you need military advice you ask a soldier.
Need financial advice ask a economist.
What is Cummings field.?
Who pays him? If it’s the tax payer he is accountable for his actions that involve his job.
If it’s Boris he is only accountable to him.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think he gets involved with making any of the detail in the lockdown rules.
		
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I believe he will be involved in parts of the overall strategy relating to the govt response to the virus and so that inevitably involves lockdown policy. He may not get down to the tiny details but I don't think that matters.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Did anyone notice that none of the journalist from the papers which said he had made a second visit to Durham apologised for the misinformation (ie lie)?


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

PaulS said:



			And he clearly broke the rules.
		
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Did you read the exception regarding young children? As in golf, exceptions are part of the rules.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did anyone notice that none of the journalist from the papers which said he had made a second visit to Durham apologised for the misinformation (ie lie)?
		
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They have apologised as much as he did for breaking the guidelines 3 times and driving to Barnard Castle on his wifes birthday to apparently test his eyesight.  But I'm sure in some people's minds they are equally as bad. So we should just forget the whole thing.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s part of the problem ,nobody knows what he does advise on.
If you need military advice you ask a soldier.
Need financial advice ask a economist.
What is Cummings field.?
Who pays him? If it’s the tax payer he is accountable for his actions that involve his job.
If it’s Boris he is only accountable to him.
		
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In business you sometimes get a business advisor in when you want an objective opinion on how things can be improved or if you are considering starting new initiatives. The advisor tends to be someone who isnt involved in the day to day operations as this can cloud your view and involve too much detail such that those working in the company. Often it's good to get opinions from people who are able to look at a bigger picture, often referred to as the movers and shakers.

To take your analogy, if you want military advice on how to plan strategy the last person you want to ask is a Soldier as their speciality is in the operations rather than strategy.    You would seek the advice of a Milatry advisor who is detached from the day to day operations.

I am not aware of his funding, it probably comes out of the PMs budget and that will eventually be public funded. Most Ministers have political advisors, it's nothing new.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Bumped into Dom and Mary on the way down seemingly.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...flouting-lockdown/ar-BB14zhMR?ocid=spartandhp


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## Bunkermagnet (May 25, 2020)

Does anyone think that the millions who have followed the Gvmt advise and has not attended to some very emotional events is now not going to say "fock it....." and do as they wish?
I would wager many are now going to be more likely to ignore what no 10 says and do as they wish.


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you read the exception regarding young children? As in golf, exceptions are part of the rules.
		
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Which exception allowed him to drive to a Castle with his wife to test his eyesight ?

Also which one allowed him to go to Work when his wife had Covid Symptoms ( should have self isolated )


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone think that the millions who have followed the Gvmt advise and has not attended to some very emotional events is now not going to say "fock it....." and do as they wish?
I would wager many are now going to be more likely to ignore what no 10 says and do as they wish.
		
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Think you could be right. I think we've seen a degree of that in the last few weeks with the good weather and easing of some restrictions but I can see why some will be tempted to say "sod it" and it doesn't offer a great example


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## Beezerk (May 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone think that the millions who have followed the Gvmt advise and has not attended to some very emotional events is now not going to say "fock it....." and do as they wish?
I would wager many are now going to be more likely to ignore what no 10 says and do as they wish.
		
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I'm not convinced millions of people would maybe make such a rash decision, extremely miffed about it yes, but going off half cocked I'm not sure about. You're right though, there will be a portion of people who now will say sod it all, it's interesting to see how this one pans out in relation to public attitude.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			They have apologised as much as he did for breaking the guidelines 3 times and driving to Barnard Castle on his wifes birthday to apparently test his eyesight.  But I'm sure in some people's minds they are equally as bad. So we should just forget the whole thing.
		
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Cummings' alleged offences could be considered to be mistakes. The newspapers' reports were lies.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone think that the millions who have followed the Gvmt advise and has not attended to some very emotional events is now not going to say "fock it....." and do as they wish?
I would wager many are now going to be more likely to ignore what no 10 says and do as they wish.
		
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They are already. At least half a dozen of my neighbours had 'garden parties' over the weekend involving up to a dozen guests.
As I write, the house behind me has two additional separate families sitting round a large table.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Cummings' alleged offences could be considered to be mistakes. The newspapers' reports were lies.
		
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Does that include the articles written by both him and his wife?

Nobody comes out of this taking the moral high ground.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			They don't live in a flat its a 3 story town house and i believe they also employ a nanny
		
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I didn't know the exact nature of the premises. Or that there was a nanny.
If that is the case, I would want to know from him why he didn't have some aide drive the nanny and child to wherever he was able to get them to stay safe. Not to the grandparents I should hope, but, if the sister was able and willing, then ....why not there.
Bottom line ...... if there is a nanny, problem over. No need for him or wife to go anywhere.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Does that include the articles written by both him and his wife?
.
		
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What did they say that was a lie?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What did they say that was a lie?
		
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Neither article told the truth about how and where they were when self isolating and how they coped.

The press made an allegation about the 19th April from information they’d received.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You  have forced your point, we all get it.

Question I have to ask you is why was it covered up, if he had grounds as Johnson has repeatedly said, why not let everyone know.
What were they afraid of, Johnson must have known of Cummings movements at the end of March. Why did Cummings wife not mention their move in her scribblings
People may have disagreed if the Tory Party had been upfront about it but perhaps they would have understood.

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I was replying to Pauldj42.point about the bit in bold- see post 137.
So I wasn't forcing the point.
Also, why do you have to ask *me *why it was covered up?  
You will see from my post that I advocated openness etc by suggesting there should have been a system for folks to ask for permission to leave home in similar circumstances , if they could see no alternative.
So, at the risk of "forcing the point"😀, maybe read my post again?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'm not convinced millions of people would maybe make such a rash decision, extremely miffed about it yes, but going off half cocked I'm not sure about. You're right though, there will be a portion of people who now will say sod it all, it's interesting to see how this one pans out in relation to public attitude.
		
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I don't think it'll be millions and was just replying in general terms to the post made. I do think there will be some though. Looking at the beaches again today I can see some families deciding that its ok to jump in the car and drive to whatever beach or beauty spot they fancy and simply mingle and not bother with SD. I do however think the large majority will have their own opinions on Cummings behaviour and whether he was right/wrong but whatever they think will do the right thing ongoing regarding social distancing etc


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I was replying to Pauldj42.point about the bit in bold- see post 137.
So I wasn't forcing the point.
Also, why do you have to ask *me *why it was covered up? 
You will see from my post that I advocated openness etc by suggesting there should have been a system for folks to ask for permission to leave home in similar circumstances , if they could see no alternative.
So, at the risk of "forcing the point"😀, maybe read my post again?
		
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Yes sorry pasted the wrong post.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Here is the Wee Dugs view,
Skip to bottom for Silver Machine clip ....if you don't like Scots stuff
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

Barnard Castle Tourist Board must be delighted with all the advertising


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## NearHull (May 25, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			Barnard Castle Tourist Board must be delighted with all the advertising
		
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Trip Advisor for Barnard Castle reviews are worth a good read.  It has several recommendations concerning opticians, seemingly worth a drive even if you feeling a little peaky.  Some other comments about being a good place for visiting snakes but watch out for grasses.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone think that the millions who have followed the Gvmt advise and has not attended to some very emotional events is now not going to say "fock it....." and do as they wish?
I would wager many are now going to be more likely to ignore what no 10 says and do as they wish.
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			Think you could be right. I think we've seen a degree of that in the last few weeks with the good weather and easing of some restrictions but I can see why some will be tempted to say "sod it" and it doesn't offer a great example
		
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No, I don't think we will.  People with decent moral standards will continue to maintain their decent moral standards & hold the moral high ground over those that don't.   Because it's what they do.

And the halfwits alluded to in the second post are already doing it, some time before Cummings' alleged indiscretions were known about.  Because it's what they do.  It doesn't apply to them, they can do what they want, it won't make any difference so why should they bother, the same standards of behaviour they've adopted for years before Cummings was appointed, and will continue to do long after Cummings has moved on.

There might be some minor shift, but a seismic shift; no, don't think so.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Cummings' alleged offences could be considered to be mistakes. *The newspapers' reports were lies*.
		
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Er...Specifically which ones were 'lies'?


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Specifically which ones were 'lies'?
		
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That he made a second journey to Durham


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## Bunkermagnet (May 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			There might be some minor shift, but a seismic shift; no, don't think so.
		
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I do hope you're right, but I'm afraid those who were starting to waiver re following the rules now decide to do as they wish and ignore those rules.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I do hope you're right, but I'm afraid those who were starting to waiver re following the rules now decide to do as they wish and ignore those rules.
		
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I understand your concerns and I may well be wrong, but the halfwits have been ignoring it from day 1 so I can't see it making that much difference.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I understand your concerns and I may well be wrong, but the halfwits have been ignoring it from day 1 so I can't see it making that much difference.
		
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That's right, some people will do what ever they want but are thankfully a minority, the great silent majority dont get a lot of credit.


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## Wildboy370 (May 25, 2020)

Just my opinion, but I feel from the press conference I got the opinion that wasn’t an Aragent, aggressive self centred man we have Been led to be belived he was. He has had a rather big dressing down from a v v senior civil servant. He is also a man with a rather large reputation who I feel in the situation he found himself with his wife Ill he literally panicked But he can never admit that as he would then be seen to be weak in the position he holds. Given the circumstances possibly we all would have done the same if possible to protect our families. Does that make it right what he did? Only if you are ever placed in a similar position can you answer that honestly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Just my opinion, but I feel from the press conference I got the opinion that wasn’t an Aragent, aggressive self centred man we have Been led to be belived he was. He has had a rather big dressing down from a v v senior civil servant. He is also a man with a rather large reputation who I feel in the situation he found himself with his wife Ill he literally panicked But he can never admit that as he would then be seen to be weak in the position he holds. Given the circumstances possibly we all would have done the same if possible to protect our families. Does that make it right what he did? Only if you are ever placed in a similar position can you answer that honestly.
		
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To be fair, that’s the impression I got on his decision to initially drive to Durham.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2020)

Imagine if you believed Dominic Cummings to be sincere. How stupid would you have to be to believe him? Haha. Oh man.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?
		
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Yes, I’m ok with his reason for travelling to Durham.


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Just my opinion, but I feel from the press conference I got the opinion that wasn’t an Aragent, aggressive self centred man we have Been led to be belived he was. He has had a rather big dressing down from a v v senior civil servant. He is also a man with a rather large reputation who I feel in the situation he found himself with his wife Ill he literally panicked But he can never admit that as he would then be seen to be weak in the position he holds. *Given the circumstances possibly we all would have done the same if possible to protect our families.* Does that make it right what he did? O*nly if you are ever placed in a similar position can you answer that honestly.*

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No we would not. There are many who can sympathise for the difficult position he was put in. A position he was in due to the guidance created by the government he is the chief advisor for. But the difference is that the vast majority who were in similar or even worse situations obeyed the stay at home rule at the time. There are countless examples of people who missed funerals and could not see dying relatives at the same time he was making his trip. 

Having sympathy for a position (which I am sure most people do) is different to using that as a reason to ignore, at the very least, the sprit of the guidance when many others were obeying it. That is what people are angry about.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2020)




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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

Tinfoil hat time.


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## Rlburnside (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?
		
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No he’s made it worse imo.


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## Wolf (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?
		
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Nope.. As a parent I understand its difficult to sometimes know what to do for the best, but far to many holes in his story and far to many other parents having to abide by the rules except him it seems.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

GSK is based in Brentford. One of their many UK sites is in Barnard Castle.

What else doesn't tell the whole story?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

Cumming supporters threaten church leaders.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ive-death-threats/ar-BB14zUgI?ocid=spartandhp


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			GSK is based in Brentford. One of their many UK sites is in Barnard Castle.

*What else doesn't tell the whole story?*

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The cumming’s household?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?
		
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I can understand Cummings instinct to protect his child in those circumstances.

Problem now is he will be recognised as someone who panics under pressure, is capable of breaking the law to suit his circumstances, is capable of putting his wife and family at risk and someone who is not a team player [never was but this doubles up on it]

BTW British Common sense seems to have gone oot the windae at Southend yesterday


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## Rlburnside (May 26, 2020)

At last a MP with a bit of integrity well done Donald Ross


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## DRW (May 26, 2020)

To answer the question in the title, clearly its NO.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			At last a MP with a bit of integrity well done Donald Ross
		
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Good to see,
Johnson and Cummings have thrown Scots Conservative and Unionist party under a bus.
If Ross's colleagues have any sense at all they should now make a clean split from the Westminster party. It is the only way I can see them surviving.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW British Common sense seems to have gone oot the windae at Southend yesterday 

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That was very poor but I was pleased to see the BBC also showed beaches in N'Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Whitley Bay in the NE of England and they were largely deserted. Assuming there has been little noise from the National Parks I would hope that people are also avoiding those in numbers as well. The majority are still following the advice, thankfully.


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## garyinderry (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW British Common sense seems to have gone oot the windae at Southend yesterday 

Click to expand...


Shocking scenes when you have limits on 4balls at golf courses.


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## Hackers76 (May 26, 2020)

I could fully understand someone wanting their children looked after by family and making that journey, not something I would have done but can empathise with him on that. However you then get to the 30 mile drive to test eyesight with the children in that car. Sorry no this is complete nonsense. It just doesn’t make sense to do this.
Never a fan of seeing people lose their jobs for mistakes but if he is found to be lying after this statement then that would make his job untenable And he should be sacked.


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## DRW (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			ssnip

BTW British Common sense seems to have gone oot the windae at Southend yesterday 

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not everything appears so clear from pictures taken from the ground.

Here is a better footage from a drone:-

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18474000.drone-footage-southend-seafront-shows-packed-beaches-social-distancing/

Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be anyway near there


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## larmen (May 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			not everything appears so clear from pictures taken from the ground.
		
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People should look at pictures with care https://petapixel.com/2020/05/04/th...y-it-is-to-create-fake-news-with-photography/   The article shows how perfectly spaced people can be compressed together by perspective alone.


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## clubchamp98 (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has Cummings' statement caused anyone here to change or modify their view either way?
		
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Well next time I have conjunctivitis I will be ok to have a test drive to see if my eyesight is ok.
If I don’t kill anyone or hit any parked cars that’s a pass.
For a very intelligent man that was a very poor excuse for breaking lockdown rules.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/673954077/posts/10158574316219078



The language is a bit choice at times so don’t read if you don’t like an occasional eff and jeff but this post sums up the DC fiasco really well.


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## clubchamp98 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In business you sometimes get a business advisor in when you want an objective opinion on how things can be improved or if you are considering starting new initiatives. The advisor tends to be someone who isnt involved in the day to day operations as this can cloud your view and involve too much detail such that those working in the company. Often it's good to get opinions from people who are able to look at a bigger picture, often referred to as the movers and shakers.

To take your analogy, if you want military advice on how to plan strategy the last person you want to ask is a Soldier as their speciality is in the operations rather than strategy.    You would seek the advice of a Milatry advisor who is detached from the day to day operations.

I am not aware of his funding, it probably comes out of the PMs budget and that will eventually be public funded. Most Ministers have political advisors, it's nothing new.
		
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Yes but if the person giving you that advice then goes against it and breaks his own advice.
That would bring that advice into question.
If he is paid by the taxpayer he should be sacked.
That’s the taxpayers that stuck to his advice. Plenty didn’t!


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2020)

There’s also some suggestions that he’s been editing his personal blogs from 2019 to make it appear that he had foresight for the coronavirus pandemic. Will be interesting to see if that’s true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

Who are these Cummings supporters in any case?  And why are they so wedded to him.  Brexit is done.  Why the apparent almost desperate need to find any way to excuse his behaviour?  

I don't buy the_ 'he knows too much about Boris to be sacked ' _line, as I think we pretty much know everything we might ever want to know about him (though I do wonder why he won't tell us how many children he has - most blokes with fatherly instincts are proud to tell us of their progeny).

I can only conclude that there must be concern amongst Johnsonians and the government that, without Cummings, Johnson will be dreadfully exposed, both in terms of message and delivery, and policy and direction.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.
		
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Or have those decrying Cummings observed the lockdown as instructed often at personal loss?


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## Wolf (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.
		
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Why does it to have to come back to that, why can people simply not accept some of us simply don't agree with his reasoning and double standards not whether they're a remain voter.. More petty attempts at point scoring, could simply be many of us have abided by the rules of lockdown even when its not in our own interests but did so anyway.

Edit Kellfire literally just beat me to it 😂


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## PaulS (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.
		
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Did those who are justifying his actions vote Leave 🙄


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.
		
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I voted Leave, sad how all of us who have expressed concern over his behaviour are tarred with the same brush and petty, snidey little digs begin.


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## Crow (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did those decrying Cummings vote Remain I wonder.
		
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Pathetic.


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## Imurg (May 26, 2020)

It's  come to the point where I dont really care if he stays or goes
I want him off the front pages as it's diverting attention away from far more important things.....


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## Italian outcast (May 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			At last a MP with a bit of integrity well done Donald Ross
		
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I'm far from convinced this was the right thing to do

The personal optics may seem good  but - assuming such a position is actually useful in the current climate - I would have thought in the bigger picture some continuity in his his role was useful to the Scottish people
There is some irony in the stories that in Pre-Covid times he had previous form for his own travels interfering with government policy  

Far better numbers from Scotland today - that is far more important than the yo-yo politics we are seeing


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			I'm far from convinced this was the right thing to do

The personal optics may seem good  but - assuming such a position is actually useful in the current climate - I would have thought in the bigger picture some continuity in his his role was useful to the Scottish people
There is some irony in the stories that in Pre-Covid times he had previous form for his own travels interfering with government policy  

Far better numbers from Scotland today - that is far more important than the yo-yo politics we are seeing
		
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The problem for the guy, and probably why he resigned, is that he would have to stand in front of constituents, cameras, reporters etc and repeat the script that No 10 have given. If he really does not believe it, gives it no credibility, then he can not do it. They may not 100% believe everything they say in interviews but sometimes it is just a step too far.

At that point he has no option but to resign. I understand where you are coming from but in politics there is always another taxi in the rank to step in and take over.


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## Italian outcast (May 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The problem for the guy, and probably why he resigned, is that he would have to stand in front of constituents, cameras, reporters etc and repeat the script that No 10 have given. If he really does not believe it, gives it no credibility, then he can not do it. They may not 100% believe everything they say in interviews but sometimes it is just a step too far.

At that point he has no option but to resign. I understand where you are coming from but in politics there is always another taxi in the rank to step in and take over.
		
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I understand what you say but he didn't have to stand up in front of anyone - few are doing that in day to day politics at the moment 
He could have stayed schtoom but chose not to - obviously he is allowed to do that but i just think it was unnecessary - he has another 4 years to demonstrate he is a good MP 
To say he had no option is a bit much - he was not personally responsible for any of this - doubt other ministers will be following him (and i doubt the SNP will ever forgive him for being there in the first place so he'll get no sympathy there)

This political advisor stuff is quite easy innit  
I'm available for a wide range of candidates in both government and corporate political arenas - Forum members may get a discount


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			I understand what you say but he didn't have to stand up in front of anyone - few are doing that in day to day politics at the moment
He could have stayed schtoom but chose not to - obviously he is allowed to do that but i just think it was unnecessary - he has another 4 years to demonstrate he is a good MP
*To say he had no option is a bit much* - he was not personally responsible for any of this - doubt other ministers will be following him (and i doubt the SNP will ever forgive him for being there in the first place so he'll get no sympathy there)

This political advisor stuff is quite easy innit 
I'm available for a wide range of candidates in both government and corporate political arenas - Forum members may get a discount 

Click to expand...

In terms of the bit in bold I suspect that is what he thought. I do not know what his plans were, could he have kept his head down or was he due to be at events where he would have had to repeat the given script? If he did and he could not then the system does not leave space for him to remain in govt. That is not my view, it is how it works rightly or wrongly. The govt have clearly gone out in defence of Cummings and once Boris aligned himself so strongly with him then it left any govt members with no wriggle room.

He has gone calmly so that leaves the option to bring him back at a later date, no use for your initial point about continuity during this period however.

What level of discount?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			I could fully understand someone wanting their children looked after by family and making that journey, not something I would have done but can empathise with him on that. However you then get to the 30 mile drive to test eyesight with the children in that car. Sorry no this is complete nonsense. *It just doesn’t make sense to do this.*
Never a fan of seeing people lose their jobs for mistakes but if he is found to be lying after this statement then that would make his job untenable And he should be sacked.
		
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Maybe it does if it is Mrs Cummings' birthday...


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## Italian outcast (May 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In terms of the bit in bold I suspect that is what he thought. I do not know what his plans were, could he have kept his head down or was he due to be at events where he would have had to repeat the given script? If he did and he could not then the system does not leave space for him to remain in govt. That is not my view, it is how it works rightly or wrongly. The govt have clearly gone out in defence of Cummings and once Boris aligned himself so strongly with him then it left any govt members with no wriggle room.

He has gone calmly so that leaves the option to bring him back at a later date, no use for your initial point about continuity during this period however.

*What level of discount?*

Click to expand...

oh lets say 20% but the base fee is on a case by case basis
In general, sadly,  advising *elitist *golfing fat-cats on successful electoral strategies is a lot of effort - usually my fees are 50% higher


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## larmen (May 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			There’s also some suggestions that he’s been editing his personal blogs from 2019 to make it appear that he had foresight for the coronavirus pandemic. Will be interesting to see if that’s true.
		
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Just seen that, the internet never forgets!


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## clubchamp98 (May 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe it does if it is Mrs Cummings' birthday...
		
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For a car crash on her birthday..
If his eyesight wasn’t ok!


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## IanM (May 26, 2020)

I think folk should resign and I also think that all MPs/Advisers should get the same level of Press Attention for it


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## North Mimms (May 26, 2020)

You would have thought that someone who plans strategy for a living would have had a better plan in place for emergency childcare.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 26, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			You would have thought that someone who plans strategy for a living would have had a better plan in place for emergency childcare.
		
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Indeed. It also shows how isolated him and his family are that they have no friends nearby who have children themselves who could have helped them out in these troubled times just as loads of people around the country have helped each other out.


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## BrianM (May 26, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Indeed. It also shows how isolated him and his family are that they have no friends nearby who have children themselves who could have helped them out in these troubled times just as loads of people around the country have helped each other out.
		
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He was wrong in what he done, but it’s hard to believe he had no one that could help him in London.
As a parent and me and my wife both worked in London and all our family was up in Scotland, I’m honestly not sure what I’d do in the circumstances, i suppose you would need to be in the position in the first place.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...oris-johnson-aide/ar-BB14C2Hl?ocid=spartandhp
Jackson has spoken, bet the boys in Tory HQ are quivering now.
As for Tory HQ calling Douglas Ross a no name. are they not aware that he is well known throughout Scotland and Europe as a UEFA assistant referee.
Quite a cute move by Douglas, looking to the future, he knows Johnson will yesterdays man some time soon.


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## PaulS (May 26, 2020)

It’s a shame all this is probably overshadowing any good news that we should be hearing about 

The numbers are going down , hasn’t been a spike from the last bank holiday , shops opening up next month 

All I can read about it seems is one idiot


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## North Mimms (May 26, 2020)

PaulS said:



			It’s a shame all this is probably overshadowing any good news that we should be hearing about

The numbers are going down , hasn’t been a spike from the last bank holiday , shops opening up next month

All I can read about it seems is one idiot
		
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Several idiots.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			I think folk should resign and I also think that all MPs/Advisers should get the same level of Press Attention for it
		
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Has Steven Kinnock resigned yet, I'm foix outraged if he hasn't.


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## 2blue (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has Steven Kinnock resigned yet, I'm foix outraged if he hasn't.
		
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Kaz said:



			It’s a false equivalence of course. But you know that.
		
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Oh... come on Karen.....  don't upset the old Dibber any more.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has Steven Kinnock resigned yet, I'm foix outraged if he hasn't.
		
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Resigned because he dropped off essentials to a parent who was self isolating ?


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## DCB (May 26, 2020)

C'mon now, play nicely together ......... 😁


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Resigned because he dropped off essentials to a parent who was self isolating ?
		
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No, for attending his fathers Birthday.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/stephen-kinnock-neil-south-wales-police-labour-mp-twitter-a4


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## IanM (May 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Resigned because he dropped off essentials to a parent who was self isolating ?
		
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um - went to see his dad on his birthday....according Kinnock Jnr himself..... he apologised, didn't resign, wasnt asked to and he hasn't got a load of journos outside his (or his parents') house.... but I guess he isnt a Tory.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			um - went to see his dad on his birthday....according Kinnock Jnr himself..... he apologised, didn't resign, wasnt asked to and he hasn't got a load of journos outside his (or his parents') house.... but I guess he isnt a Tory.
		
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I guess poor old pensioner Neil cant afford home delivery.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, for attending his fathers Birthday.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/stephen-kinnock-neil-south-wales-police-labour-mp-twitter-a4

Click to expand...

That link doesn’t show anything 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....k-targeted-by-police-for-visiting-father-neil


I felt that this was essential travel as I had to deliver some necessary supplies to my parents. I stayed long enough to sing ‘happy birthday’ to Dad, and then I was off. All the best, S


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## jim8flog (May 26, 2020)

What I think has become very noticeable and started with BoJos presentation on Sunday is that they are clearly trying to shut out the TV and press at the briefing.

Prior to the Cummings scandal each questioner was allowed 2 questions and invited to come back after the answer given. If a questioned is raised now referencing DC there is a response and the government minister immediately goes to the next journalist no second question - no comeback.


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## Robster59 (May 26, 2020)

If you want a golfing analogy, what he did may have been within the rules but it wasn't in spirit of them.  
The total lack of contrition really isn't helping him and it is diverting the importance of any messages the government is trying to send out.  
On the first day after it became public the transport secretary was on making announcements to some changes to the road infrastructure.  But who can really remember what he said?  
Whilst he is there, it weakens the messages from the government.  For the good of the country, he should stand down.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What I think has become very noticeable and started with BoJos presentation on Sunday is that they are clearly trying to shut out the TV and press at the briefing.

Prior to the Cummings scandal each questioner was allowed 2 questions and invited to come back after the answer given. If a questioned is raised now referencing DC there is a response and the government minister immediately goes to the next journalist no second question - no comeback.
		
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The journos need to smarten up and coordinate their questions.


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## Robster59 (May 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What I think has become very noticeable and started with BoJos presentation on Sunday is that they are clearly trying to shut out the TV and press at the briefing.

Prior to the Cummings scandal each questioner was allowed 2 questions and invited to come back after the answer given. If a questioned is raised now referencing DC there is a response and the government minister immediately goes to the next journalist no second question - no comeback.
		
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I've noticed that as well.  I imagine that a lot of the ministers are deeply peed off at the whole situation and struggling to hold the party line.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			For the good of the country, he should stand down.
		
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Assuming Brexit is for the good of the country, which most seem to think, the country and Johnson needs Cummings to ensure it gets through.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I've noticed that as well.  I imagine that a lot of the ministers are deeply peed off at the whole situation and struggling to hold the party line.
		
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Or maybe tired of answering the same old questions over and over.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Assuming Brexit is for the good of the country, which most seem to think, the country and Johnson needs Cummings to ensure it gets through.
		
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Utter Twaddle!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			If you want a golfing analogy, what he did may have been within the rules but it wasn't in spirit of them. 
The total lack of contrition really isn't helping him and it is diverting the importance of any messages the government is trying to send out. 
On the first day after it became public the transport secretary was on making announcements to some changes to the road infrastructure.  But who can really remember what he said? 
Whilst he is there, it weakens the messages from the government.  For the good of the country, he should stand down.
		
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Would that be a bit like your playing partner saying "I know you are entitled to a free drop but I dont like it"


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has Steven Kinnock resigned yet, I'm foix outraged if he hasn't.
		
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Still ignoring Jenrick then?


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Or maybe tired of answering the same old questions over and over.
		
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Or receiving the bucket-loads of negative mail/email from constituents about it!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That link doesn’t show anything

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....k-targeted-by-police-for-visiting-father-neil


I felt that this was essential travel as I had to deliver some necessary supplies to my parents. I stayed long enough to sing ‘happy birthday’ to Dad, and then I was off. All the best, S
		
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https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-wales-police-labour-mp-twitter-a4401186.html

OK, here it is again. Doesnt seem like the Police agreed with the necessary supplies. Does anyone honestly believe Neil Kinnock needs his son to deliver supplies to him. Really!


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

Robster59 said:



*If you want a golfing analogy, what he did may have been within the rules but it wasn't in spirit of them. *
The total lack of contrition really isn't helping him and it is diverting the importance of any messages the government is trying to send out. 
On the first day after it became public the transport secretary was on making announcements to some changes to the road infrastructure.  But who can really remember what he said? 
Whilst he is there, it weakens the messages from the government.  For the good of the country, he should stand down.
		
Click to expand...

No. I can't figure anything in the Rules that could possibly be 'not in the spirit of them'. The Rules are extremely binary wrt 'legal versus not legal'!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Or receiving the bucket-loads of negative mail/email from constituents about it!
		
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Maybe or maybe what I said.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party leader has been forced by his MSP's to backtrack on his earlier support of Cummings.
How embarrassing.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Still ignoring Jenrick then?

Click to expand...

Ignoring?  If you want my opinion on it post a link and I'll decide if I find it worthy of commenting on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ignoring?  If you want my opinion on it post a link and I'll decide if I find it worthy of commenting on.
		
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Ha, Ha, so yesterday it was mentioned, discussed at length on here when it happened and you are still in denial! Brilliant, you couldn’t make it up.

Robert Jenrick

The Housing, Communities and Local Government Secretary was forced to explain himself after travelling more than an hour to visit his parents despite warning people to remain at home.

Mr Jenrick was also criticised for travelling 150 miles from his London property to his Herefordshire home from where he travelled to his parents in Shropshire.

However, he defended his actions, saying he went to deliver food and medicine to his isolating parents.


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## Pin-seeker (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-wales-police-labour-mp-twitter-a4401186.html

OK, here it is again. Doesnt seem like the Police agreed with the necessary supplies. Does anyone honestly believe Neil Kinnock needs his son to deliver supplies to him. Really!
		
Click to expand...

Depends if you Want to believe it.
If it was someone else doing it then certain people would be outraged.
Rose tinted specs.


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## Pin-seeker (May 26, 2020)

It’s pretty obvious that it’s one rule for them & another for everyone else. it’s always the same,I’m alright jack.


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## Hackers76 (May 26, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			It’s pretty obvious that it’s one rule for them & another for everyone else. it’s always the same,I’m alright jack.
		
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I think there have been plenty from the “everyone else” side that have flouted the rules too.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Ha, Ha, so yesterday it was mentioned, discussed at length on here when it happened and you are still in denial! Brilliant, you couldn’t make it up.

Robert Jenrick

The Housing, Communities and Local Government Secretary was forced to explain himself after travelling more than an hour to visit his parents despite warning people to remain at home.

Mr Jenrick was also criticised for travelling 150 miles from his London property to his Herefordshire home from where he travelled to his parents in Shropshire.

However, he defended his actions, saying he went to deliver food and medicine to his isolating parents.
		
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I have told you before, I dont read all the posts on here, it's not compulsary.    I will take a look at it and let you know my feeling on the matter as you appear to want my feedback.

Is there really any need for the insults.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have told you before, I dont read all the posts on here, it's not compulsary.    I will take a look at it and let you know my feeling on the matter as you appear to want my feedback.

Is there really any need for the insults.
		
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What insult? I haven’t insulted you!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What insult? I haven’t insulted you!
		
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Just think a minute what would be the reaction if you said the attached to someone you dont know in a conservation, or if they said it to you.  I'm not thinned skinned but its inflamitory language and many would consider it an insult. Im trying to stop getting into conversations with you that are set to escalate and result in warnings from Mods. Weve both been asked to stop it so let's make an effort please.

*"Ha, Ha, so yesterday it was mentioned, discussed at length on here when it happened and you are still in denial! Brilliant, you couldn’t make it up* 🤐"


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2020)

I'm no Mary Whitehouse but I'd probably delete the last post as in your rush to show someone on the left swearing, the twitter link visible contains all sorts of potty mouth language that I'd say is against the forum rules. Or at the very least the spirit of the rules. If that counts nowadays.


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			And you decide to quote it 🤣🤣🤣
💩🥄
		
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Yes, but realised what I did and deleted it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just think a minute what would be the reaction if you said the attached to someone you dont know in a conservation, or if they said it to you.  I'm not thinned skinned but its inflamitory language and many would consider it an insult. Im trying to stop getting into conversations with you that are set to escalate and result in warnings from Mods. Weve both been asked to stop it so let's make an effort please.

*"Ha, Ha, so yesterday it was mentioned, discussed at length on here when it happened and you are still in denial! Brilliant, you couldn’t make it up* 🤐"
		
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I’d laugh and tell them to stick it were the sun don’t shine, but certainly not insulted. There was no intention to insult you, the reaction was sheer disbelief in your answer to me.

You constantly post sarcastic comments, are you saying you are actually insulting someone everytime you do.

Have you researched Jenrick yet?


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2020)

Apologies to anyone I have offended by my post which has quite rightly been taken Down.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d laugh and tell them to stick it were the sun don’t shine, but certainly not insulted. There was no intention to insult you, the reaction was sheer disbelief in your answer to me.

You constantly post sarcastic comments, are you saying you are actually insulting someone everytime you do.

Have you researched Jenrick yet?
		
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I repeat, I will not get drawn into threads with you that escalate into warnings, it's happened too often. 

I will reply to your question when I have a little more time. I dont have a lot of time this evening.


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## Wildboy370 (May 26, 2020)

So a guy who in a state of panic travels with his family to protect his child in a worst case scenario. The media have hated him from day one so drum a hysteria against him dragging along the public and we all want him sacked for his mistake In which he thinks he did the right thing. Never went near anyone so minimal risk.
so did we get the 400 Plus people’s names and job sat on the beaches yesterday deliberately flouting rules knowingly, with a major risk to public health, so we can demand they are all sacked too. Or is it one rule for him and one rule for the masses ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I repeat, I will not get drawn into threads with you that escalate into warnings, it's happened too often.

I will reply to your question when I have a little more time. I dont have a lot of time this evening.
		
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Well rest assured I wasn’t trying to draw you in to anything, you come across as an intelligent person who tends to follow politics and keeps up to date, therefore I am still bewildered at your lack of knowledge about Jenrick and await your response with anticipation and a pinch of suspense.

P.S. No insults were included or intended in this post.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Have you researched Jenrick yet?
		
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Jenrick's 'breach' holds up as legit imo - providing his reason/excuse was true.
That's probably why there wasn't more fuss about it!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			So a guy who in a state of panic travels with his family to protect his child in a worst case scenario. The media have hated him from day one so drum a hysteria against him dragging along the public and we all want him sacked for his mistake In which he thinks he did the right thing. Never went near anyone so minimal risk.
so did we get the 400 Plus people’s names and job sat on the beaches yesterday deliberately flouting rules knowingly, with a major risk to public health, so we can demand they are all sacked too. Or is it one rule for him and one rule for the masses ?
		
Click to expand...

Behave, none of them 400 are at the top end of Government and responsible for policies and decisions affecting the whole Country.

I no longer think he should be sacked for his trip to Durham as I accept his reasons even if I don’t agree with them.

Life is not fair and people in positions of responsibility are held to a higher standard whether we like it or not.

Did he admit to being in a state of panic? As that was not his reason for travelling.


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## Wildboy370 (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Behave, none of them 400 are at the top end of Government and responsible for policies and decisions affecting the whole Country.

I no longer think he should be sacked for his trip to Durham as I accept his reasons even if I don’t agree with them.

Life is not fair and people in positions of responsibility are held to a higher standard whether we like it or not.
		
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just wanted to put a different spin on it. We are all appalled because of his job and position of his behaviour and want him sacked. But we are in same way happy to stand by and watch 400plus on a beach, 200 at a rave in Leeds, 200 plus in a village near Me on motorbikes all sat about in groups eating Ice cream on a village green etc and not want any action of any kind. And yes I don’t agree with what he did but I do understand why, well the trip up there as for rest mmmmm but to loose your job over protecting your child, I’m sorry no.


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2020)

There was a mass brawl on a beach at broadsstairs, first big incident I've heard of in Kent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			just wanted to put a different spin on it. We are all appalled because of his job and position of his behaviour and want him sacked. But we are in same way happy to stand by and watch 400plus on a beach, 200 at a rave in Leeds, 200 plus in a village near Me on motorbikes all sat about in groups eating Ice cream on a village green etc and not want any action of any kind. And yes I don’t agree with what he did but I do understand why, well the trip up there as for rest mmmmm but to loose your job over protecting your child, I’m sorry no.
		
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But if you want to put a different spin on it you could say he made a bad call as him and his wife didn’t get ill enough to be unable to look after the kid and it would of been ok if he’d of stayed in London, so do we really want someone making panicy, knee jerk reactions involved at the top end in Government.


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## clubchamp98 (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But if you want to put a different spin on it you could say he made a bad call as him and his wife didn’t get ill enough to be unable to look after the kid and it would of been ok if he’d of stayed in London, so do we really want someone making panicy, knee jerk reactions involved at the top end in Government.

Click to expand...

And someone who tests his eyesight by going for a drive.
Think that’s worse than the drive to Durham.


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			So a guy who in a state of panic travels with his family to protect his child in a worst case scenario. The media have hated him from day one so drum a hysteria against him dragging along the public and we all want him sacked for his mistake In which he thinks he did the right thing. Never went near anyone so minimal risk.
		
Click to expand...

What about the fact that he left work because his wife thought that she might have the virus and then later that day returned to work rather than doing what the guidelines stated to isolate at home for 14 days?


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## Wildboy370 (May 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about the fact that he left work because his wife thought that she might have the virus and then later that day returned to work rather than doing what the guidelines stated to isolate at home for 14 days?
		
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and the 400 on the beach are all now in isolation ? Probably half back at work with no idea of what they may or may not have. We can keep hitting the guy with a big stick, but So so many others just do what they want and press and most others just leave them alone. That’s all I was pointing out.


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## Rlburnside (May 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			So a guy who in a state of panic travels with his family to protect his child in a worst case scenario. The media have hated him from day one so drum a hysteria against him dragging along the public and we all want him sacked for his mistake In which he thinks he did the right thing. Never went near anyone so minimal risk.
so did we get the 400 Plus people’s names and job sat on the beaches yesterday deliberately flouting rules knowingly, with a major risk to public health, so we can demand they are all sacked too. Or is it one rule for him and one rule for the masses ?
		
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You say he never went near anyone so minimal risk, that's not true, the day he went back to work after seeing his wife he was putting people at risk. He should have self isolated for 7 days at that point.


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## MegaSteve (May 27, 2020)

If someone who has the PM's ear, as DomCum has, believes his conduct will not/should not be closely scrutinised is not merely a fool but a dangerous one...


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## Robster59 (May 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			And someone who tests his eyesight by going for a drive.
Think that’s worse than the drive to Durham.
		
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Well, it's certainly a worse excuse.


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## Robster59 (May 27, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			just wanted to put a different spin on it. We are all appalled because of his job and position of his behaviour and want him sacked. But we are in same way happy to stand by and watch 400plus on a beach, 200 at a rave in Leeds, 200 plus in a village near Me on motorbikes all sat about in groups eating Ice cream on a village green etc and not want any action of any kind. And yes I don’t agree with what he did but I do understand why, well the trip up there as for rest mmmmm but to loose your job over protecting your child, I’m sorry no.
		
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To be honest, if every single one of the 400 plus on the beach had received a fine, I wouldn't have shed a tear.  We haven't been out anywhere despite the occassionaly gorgeous weather.  
However, and this is not excusing them, Cummings position is one that people look at and if he is seen (or perceived to be seen which may be the case) flaunting, stretching or incorrectly interpreting the rules to his own end, it makes the job of enforcing this so much more difficult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

For what it's worth, my MP - Jeremy Hunt - thinks Cummings broke the rules in multiple ways, and though he is not going to be asking for Cummings to be sacked, as a member of the Liaison Committee he will today be pressing the PM on this issue.   I know this as I wrote to him and yesterday he replied.

And if you wanted to get a feeling on how some ministers feel about the situation then Jenrick on Today this morning made it very clear that he would not answer a straight question on the matter with a straight answer.  Could Cummings wife not have driven?  Could #10 not have sent a car?  Jenrick not going to comment on the specific circumstances of any individual.

As for Hancock's '...we'll look into it..' at the briefing yesterday in respect of others fined for doing very similar things as Cummings?  Well Jenrick tells listeners that they've looked into it and it's a matter for the police applying the rule of law and not for the government to interfere.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 27, 2020)

What people do now could be argued a consequence of whats happened. 

We were all told these were challenging times the likes of which we haven't had since WW2, everyone would have to make sacrifices and follow the stay home saves lives mantra.
He may have driven non-stop in his car to Durham, but anything could have happened on the way...he could have been involved in an accident, broken down or anything. Do they then have to send out personel in NBC suits to rescue him or do they just contaminate anyone who is sent to help?
Not once has he apologised to the millions who have made sacrifices and even more so those in the front line staff risking their health dealing with it.
He has made our Government a laughing stock, the likes of which Jim Henson would be proud of.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2020)

Does anyone think that England's chances of having a larger than expected second wave of Covid have been increased by the actions of Johnson and Cummings in the last 14 days.
And......before the usual suspects get back on their high horses remember that health is a devolved issue within the UK.


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## clubchamp98 (May 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone think that England's chances of having a larger than expected second wave of Covid have been increased by the actions of Johnson and Cummings in the last 14 days.
And......before the usual suspects get back on their high horses remember that health is a devolved issue within the UK.
		
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Possibly but the people who are already doing what they want don’t watch the news imo.
Most people doing the right thing won’t change that because of Cummings.
But people are changing what they do now but not because of this.
It might change their excuse if they are pulled by the police as now everyone will “ be looking for childcare”.
Or “Testing their eyesight”


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone think that England's chances of having a larger than expected second wave of Covid have been increased by the actions of Johnson and Cummings in the last 14 days.
And......before the usual suspects get back on their high horses remember that health is a devolved issue within the UK.
		
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Why just England ? Are the other nations immune to people going out ignoring the restrictions ? What about the scientist in Scotland who broke the lockdown - did that  increase the chances of a second wave. Johnson is the Prime Minister for the whole of UK 

The second wave was supposed to hit when we relaxed restrictions 3 weeks ago it hasn’t happened , the idea of second waves havent really happened around the world when restrictions are being relaxed 

It doesn’t matter what Cummings or Johnson do people on the whole are continuing to observe the restrictions put in place , there are the odd minority who will abuse it but that’s been the case since day one. 

It’s time to move past what happened and looked to the next stage of easing restrictions which have already been announced in part.


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## rudebhoy (May 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Possibly but the people who are already doing what they want don’t watch the news imo.
Most people doing the right thing won’t change that because of Cummings.
But people are changing what they do now but not because of this.
It might change their excuse if they are pulled by the police as now everyone will “ be looking for childcare”.
Or “*Testing their eyesight”*

Click to expand...

Can you imagine the reaction of the police if they stopped you in height of the lockdown (mid-April), asked you what the purpose if your journey was, and you said "I'm testing my eyesight"?


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well rest assured I wasn’t trying to draw you in to anything, you come across as an intelligent person who tends to follow politics and keeps up to date, therefore I am still bewildered at your lack of knowledge about Jenrick and await your response with anticipation and a pinch of suspense.

P.S. No insults were included or intended in this post.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply, it was my Birthday yesterday so went for a long walk on the Malvern hills with my wife followed by a lovely meal she made me in the evening, also catching up with my family on video conferencing, I have children and grandchildren in a number of countries.

Regarding these MPs, I know I had been digging about Kinnock and was being somewhat sarcastic in saying he should resign but my point is that a number in parliament have been doing things that stretch the rules but seems to me Cummings is getting the lions share of attention when hes no worse or better than the others.
They all have excuses to offer when exposed and in just about every case the excuses are open to subjectivity.  My personal opinion is that none of them are resigning cases but should have recieved a ticking off for not using better judgement, this includes Cummings, I am of the opinion the amount of outrage along with the media having a feeding frenzy has got out of kilter with what happened.

That's my view on the lot of them, they should have been more aware of the possible outcomes but hand on heart I wouldnt condemn anyone for doing what they felt was best for their families.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Can you imagine the reaction of the police if they stopped you in height of the lockdown (mid-April), asked you what the purpose if your journey was, and you said "I'm testing my eyesight"?
		
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But he didnt say he was just testing his eyesight. He said he wanted to check his fitness to drive. I think he said his wife had concerns for his eyesight, he wasnt stopped by the Police either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry for the late reply, it was my Birthday yesterday so went for a long walk on the Malvern hills with my wife followed by a lovely meal she made me in the evening, also catching up with my family on video conferencing, I have children and grandchildren in a number of countries.

Regarding these MPs, I know I had been digging about Kinnock and was being somewhat sarcastic in saying he should resign but my point is that a number in parliament have been doing things that stretch the rules but seems to me Cummings is getting the lions share of attention when hes no worse or better than the others.
They all have excuses to offer when exposed and in just about every case the excuses are open to subjectivity.  My personal opinion is that none of them are resigning cases but should have recieved a ticking off for not using better judgement, this includes Cummings, I am of the opinion the amount of outrage along with the media having a feeding frenzy has got out of kilter with what happened.

That's my view on the lot of them, they should have been more aware of the possible outcomes but hand on heart I wouldnt condemn anyone for doing what they felt was best for their families.
		
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Apart from your first paragraph.

My take on the rest is that Jenrick (he you could not mention) has left you with egg on your face and instead of acknowledging what he did you now claim your Kinnock posts were simply sarcastic and all of them should be treated with a ticking off. 

So the level of the person and the responsibility of the position they hold are irrelevant.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apart from your first paragraph.

My take on the rest is that Jenrick (he you could not mention) has left you with egg on your face and instead of acknowledging what he did you now claim your Kinnock posts were simply sarcastic and all of them should be treated with a ticking off.

So the level of the person and the responsibility of the position they hold are irrelevant.
		
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I dont understand why you think I have any problems with condemning Jenrick, he means absolutely nothing to me, just like Kinnock and the two or three Labour MPs who's names I cannot be bothered to look up.

I dont feel like I have egg on my face, you have been pressing me on giving an opinion and I've given it. OK, it doesnt seem to suit what you want me to say but it's my opinion and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.  Matter closed.


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## rulefan (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So the level of the person and the responsibility of the position they hold are irrelevant.
		
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People are just people. All have faults and foibles. Their 'perceived' status should have no bearing on other's judgements of their personal life decisions. Whilst I may or may not approve of my next door neighbour's actions, they have no more or less influence on mine than your's, Nicola Sturgeons's or the Queen's.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			People are just people. All have faults and foibles. Their 'perceived' status should have no bearing on other's judgements of their personal life decisions. Whilst I may or may not approve of my next door neighbour's actions, they have no more or less influence on mine than your's, Nicola Sturgeons's or the Queen's.
		
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Of course it does, we are discussing politicians and people in authority, not a next door neighbour, if someone is stood there telling you how to live your life and to behave then they should meet the same standards as a bare minimum.

I take it you’ll be happy if enough of “these” people get together introduce laws that you and me are expected to follow and not apply to them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont understand why you think I have any problems with condemning Jenrick, he means absolutely nothing to me, just like Kinnock and the two or three Labour MPs who's names I cannot be bothered to look up.

I dont feel like I have egg on my face, you have been pressing me on giving an opinion and I've given it. OK, it doesnt seem to suit what you want me to say but it's my opinion and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.  Matter closed.
		
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Pressing you. You really are a victim today. Best leave it as you’ll have enough egg to make an omelette.


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## drdel (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course it does, we are discussing politicians and people in authority, not a next door neighbour, if someone is stood there telling you how to live your life and to behave then they should meet the same standards as a bare minimum.

 take it you’ll be happy if enough of “these” people get together introduce laws that you and me are expected to follow and not apply to them.
		
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It has been the case for centuries and generations of worldwide 'rulers'. 

There is a virus in the population that is spread by touching or proximity to a carrier for about 10 minutes. Why does anyone need to be TOLD that is best for their health to stay apart from others, if  at all possible. Surely If someone elso does something that raises the risk you do not have to do the same thing!

The fact that this is a pandemic and government's worldwide have given guidance to their citizens surely only reinforces what we all know. That advice does not change just because others humans missbehave or are forced by personal circumstances/context to be at variance  : we are not leemings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			It has been the case for centuries and generations of worldwide 'rulers'.

There is a virus in the population that is spread by touching or proximity to a carrier for about 10 minutes. Why does anyone need to be TOLD that is best for their health to stay apart from others, if  at all possible. Surely If someone elso does something that raises the risk you do not have to do the same thing!

The fact that this is a pandemic and government's worldwide have given guidance to their citizens surely only reinforces what we all know. That advice does not change just because others humans missbehave or are forced by personal circumstances/context to be at variance  : we are not leemings.
		
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Just because it’s happened for Centuries doesn’t mean it should continue.

They haven’t given guidance they have created rules, laws and imposed fines.

It’s one rule for them and one for us!

And please try to remember I have no issue with cummings remaining in post after hearing his explanation, I’m not the one who called for 2 MP’s from one party to be sacked for breaking the rules and when it was pointed out 1 from the party he supports has done it, the story changed to him being sarcastic.

Somehow this issue over rules/laws/guidance has been deflected on to me? I have no issue with what the Government laid down and I’m still following the rules.

I remained consistent in saying ALL MP’s and people involved in the policies and decisions related to Covid should be sacked if they break the rules once the facts are known.

But then again it’s only me accussed of playing the poster.


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## clubchamp98 (May 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Can you imagine the reaction of the police if they stopped you in height of the lockdown (mid-April), asked you what the purpose if your journey was, and you said "I'm testing my eyesight"?
		
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That would go for anytime I think not just lockdown.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Pressing you. You really are a victim today. Best leave it as you’ll have enough egg to make an omelette.

Click to expand...

 Yes pressing, I believe you asked me three times for an answer.  Yes, best leave it as it seems you are looking for a reaction.


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## clubchamp98 (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But he didnt say he was just testing his eyesight. He said he wanted to check his fitness to drive. I think he said his wife had concerns for his eyesight, he wasnt stopped by the Police either.
		
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I think if I had concerns for my wife’s eyesight and general fitness to drive I would not be going As a passenger on a 30 mile drive with her.
I have never heard anything so stupid from an obviously intelligent man.
Would like to hear what a traffic policeman thinks of that excuse.
Happy birthday by the way.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just because it’s happened for Centuries doesn’t mean it should continue.

They haven’t given guidance they have created rules, laws and imposed fines.

It’s one rule for them and one for us!

And please try to remember I have no issue with cummings remaining in post after hearing his explanation, I’m not the one who called for 2 MP’s from one party to be sacked for breaking the rules and when it was pointed out 1 from the party he supports has done it, the story changed to him being sarcastic.

Somehow this issue over rules/laws/guidance has been deflected on to me? I have no issue with what the Government laid down and I’m still following the rules.

I remained consistent in saying ALL MP’s and people involved in the policies and decisions related to Covid should be sacked if they break the rules once the facts are known.

But then again it’s only me accussed of playing the poster.
		
Click to expand...

I repeat. I used the cases you mention to highlight how people were hounding Cummings but not these men, you raised the case of the Tory, I had not even read it at that point.  If you want to keep rasing it then say it to me and not someone else.

Please stop this silly witch-hunt it's getting childish and fishing for an argument.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think if I had concerns for my wife’s eyesight and general fitness to drive I would not be going As a passenger on a 30 mile drive with her.
I have never heard anything so stupid from an obviously intelligent man.
Would like to hear what a traffic policeman thinks of that excuse.
Happy birthday by the way.
		
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I am correcting what he said, not justifying it.

Thanks.


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## clubchamp98 (May 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			People are just people. All have faults and foibles. Their 'perceived' status should have no bearing on other's judgements of their personal life decisions. Whilst I may or may not approve of my next door neighbour's actions, they have no more or less influence on mine than your's, Nicola Sturgeons's or the Queen's.
		
Click to expand...

Imagine the committee Members preferring their lie.
Then telling the rest of the membership that it’s not allowed .
Then the committee members keep doing it anyway.
He is making up the rules for us but they don’t apply to him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I repeat. I used the cases you mention to highlight how people were hounding Cummings but not these men, you raised the case of the Tory, I had not even read it at that point.  If you want to keep rasing it then say it to me and not someone else.

Please stop this silly witch-hunt it's getting childish and fishing for an argument.
		
Click to expand...

Please see your post above were you said the matter is closed.

I took you at your word and didn’t name you.

Please clarify your wishes as I’m confused, you must remember that you don’t need to respond to every message, especially as I was responding directly to drdel.


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## drdel (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just because it’s happened for Centuries doesn’t mean it should continue.

They haven’t given guidance they have created rules, laws and imposed fines.

It’s one rule for them and one for us!

And please try to remember I have no issue with cummings remaining in post after hearing his explanation, I’m not the one who called for 2 MP’s from one party to be sacked for breaking the rules and when it was pointed out 1 from the party he supports has done it, the story changed to him being sarcastic.

Somehow this issue over rules/laws/guidance has been deflected on to me? I have no issue with what the Government laid down and I’m still following the rules.

I remained consistent in saying ALL MP’s and people involved in the policies and decisions related to Covid should be sacked if they break the rules once the facts are known.

But then again it’s only me accussed of playing the poster.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I did not mean to directly disagree and single you out. I think we have all started dancing on a pinhead where 'guidance' will always be open to interpretation and entirely dependent on context. 
I was trying to make a more general point (perhaps poorly) and add a bit of context to this debate and your post.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Sorry, I did not mean to directly disagree and single you out. I think we have all started dancing on a pinhead where 'guidance' will always be open to interpretation and entirely dependent on context.
I was trying to make a more general point (perhaps poorly) and add a bit of context to this debate and your post.
		
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No worries, we all get wrapped up in threads when directly replying to each other and everyone else at the same time.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Please see your post above were you said the matter is closed.

I took you at your word and didn’t name you.

Please clarify your wishes as I’m confused, you must remember that you don’t need to respond to every message, especially as I was responding directly to drdel.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and sighting me in it.  Just drop it man.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes and sighting me in it.  Just drop it man.
		
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Do not use public forums if you do not want words you use being used by others.
Either take it to a private forum or drop the victim act, I am not interested and will ignore all future posts by you. 

If I then comment on a thread and you have been part of that debate, please be assurred the world is not revolving around you or hanging on every word.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Do not use public forums if you do not want words you use being used by others.
Either take it to a private forum or drop the victim act, I am not interested and will ignore all future posts by you.

If I then comment on a thread and you have been part of that debate, please be assurred the world is not revolving around you or hanging on every word.
		
Click to expand...

I'm putting you on my ignore list as it is evident you are pushing for a slanging match and hoping I will get a warning.


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## Pin-seeker (May 27, 2020)

Yet again it looks like the press are going for blood. 
Scum.


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## huds1475 (May 27, 2020)

One of Kuenssbergs points on news at 10 last night was that the whole situation created so much noise as to distract from more important matters.

Said without any hint of irony, as though this was something profound.


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## patricks148 (May 27, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			One of Kuenssbergs points on news at 10 last night was that the whole situation created so much noise as to distract from more important matters.

Said without any hint of irony, as though this was something profound.
		
Click to expand...

not sure what going on with her, whe the story broke she was staright into deflect mode and made plenty of excuses for DC, then appears to have got the bit between her teeth and going for the jugular from his Press conf omwards??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Yet again it looks like the press are going for blood.
Scum.
		
Click to expand...

I think that the press are asking the questions many of the public would like to ask but are clearly unable to - and when a question is not answered to their satisfaction then they ask it again.  Just like the members of the Liaison Committee having to ask Johnson the same or very similar questions as he often avoids answering them - instead telling us how important it is to move on - which it is - but which we won't until the avoidance and diverting ends.  

And so we finds that a majority of posters on the Mumsnet forum are not as impressed and accepting of the answers being given about the actions of Cummings as some here appear to be.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes and sighting me in it.  Just drop it man.
		
Click to expand...




pauldj42 said:



			Do not use public forums if you do not want words you use being used by others.
Either take it to a private forum or drop the victim act, I am not interested and will ignore all future posts by you.

If I then comment on a thread and you have been part of that debate, please be assurred the world is not revolving around you or hanging on every word.
		
Click to expand...

Paul and Socket

Pack it in the both of you, you have both had warnings recently , the next step will be an infraction


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## CliveW (May 27, 2020)

Am I the only one who thinks that Cummings shows no respect in the way he dresses whilst attending Downing Street, so why would we think he would show respect for rules?


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## rulefan (May 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			1) Imagine the committee Members preferring their lie.
2) Then telling the rest of the membership that it’s not allowed .
Then the committee members keep doing it anyway.
He is making up the rules for us but they don’t apply to him.
		
Click to expand...

1) I wouldn't require his resignation or sacking from the committee
2) I would ask for an explanation and justification
3) I would require his resignation or sacking from the committee


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## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not sure what going on with her, whe the story broke she was staright into deflect mode and made plenty of excuses for DC, then appears to have got the bit between her teeth and going for the jugular from his Press conf omwards??
		
Click to expand...

All over the show Patrick.

An absolute shambles


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## drdel (May 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not sure what going on with her, whe the story broke she was staright into deflect mode and made plenty of excuses for DC, then appears to have got the bit between her teeth and going for the jugular from his Press conf omwards??
		
Click to expand...

Just perhaps her "sources" gave her some advice on how she might affect future 'inside' information.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not sure what going on with her, whe the story broke she was staright into deflect mode and made plenty of excuses for DC, then appears to have got the bit between her teeth and going for the jugular from his Press conf omwards??
		
Click to expand...

Said it before but I think she is in a difficult position.  In that her and Peston are the people that the conservatives 'leak' information to and she then tweets these leaks out. People then sometimes take that as her opinion, when it is in fact a controlled leak from a source she has got and a lot of the time she is doing her job of delivering what she sees as 'news', not withstanding the fact that it has been spun to her.  But then again show me some news nowadays that has not been spun in some way.   

I agree that she should sometimes stop and consider if she is being played by the Tories where they use her as their unofficial mouthpiece.  But then again that may mean she no longer gets access to the very top in government which will harm her career.  Just about every time she is quoting a source who has an agenda, she is not saying that she always believes in that spin. In fact if you read her blogs on the BBC web site she comes across as pretty neutral. It is just that there are literally thousands of people on twitter just waiting for her to tweet anything given to her by her sources and pile in as they believe it is her opinion.


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## CliveW (May 28, 2020)

https://www.brewdog.com/uk/barnard-castle-eye-test


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2020)

So has the true identity of Guido Fawkes been revealed :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266026175450820609


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## CliveW (May 28, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			So has the true identity of Guido Fawkes been revealed :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266026175450820609

Click to expand...

Totally lost on me, that post!


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2020)

The


CliveW said:



			Totally lost on me, that post! 

Click to expand...

 Key word is Twaddle.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Totally lost on me, that post! 

Click to expand...

He's the bloke who paints murals on walls 😆


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## patricks148 (May 28, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			The

Key word is Twaddle.
		
Click to expand...

Chris Twaddle?


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## patricks148 (May 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Said it before but I think she is in a difficult position.  In that her and Peston are the people that the conservatives 'leak' information to and she then tweets these leaks out. People then sometimes take that as her opinion, when it is in fact a controlled leak from a source she has got and a lot of the time she is doing her job of delivering what she sees as 'news', not withstanding the fact that it has been spun to her.  But then again show me some news nowadays that has not been spun in some way.  

I agree that she should sometimes stop and consider if she is being played by the Tories where they use her as their unofficial mouthpiece.  But then again that may mean she no longer gets access to the very top in government which will harm her career.  Just about every time she is quoting a source who has an agenda, she is not saying that she always believes in that spin. In fact if you read her blogs on the BBC web site she comes across as pretty neutral. It is just that there are literally thousands of people on twitter just waiting for her to tweet anything given to her by her sources and pile in as they believe it is her opinion.
		
Click to expand...

what about the   way she was staright in to defend DC, when it broke thats not leaking a story?


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## CliveW (May 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He's the bloke who paints murals on walls 😆
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I haven't heard of him.


----------



## North Mimms (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we finds that a majority of posters on the Mumsnet forum are not as impressed and accepting of the answers being given about the actions of Cummings as some here appear to be.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't have SILH down as a Mumsnet user!


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			I didn't have SILH down as a Mumsnet user!
		
Click to expand...

Those kid weary wine crazed Mums are not happy 😄


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## bobmac (May 29, 2020)

Wow.
Guy does wrong
Guy gets caught
Friends get him off the hook
He has not been sacked and will not resign.
Move on, it's a lovely day.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Wow.
Guy does wrong
Guy gets caught
Friends get him off the hook
He has not been sacked and will not resign.
Move on, it's a lovely day.
		
Click to expand...

Oh look quick over there is that a squirrel I see...........
Folk will move on when the story ends........story is still going strong despite Johnson desperately trying to cover up his involvement.
Tory Party are still talking about the Calderwood case [how long ago was that  ]
Cummings situation was much more serious than Calderwood's 
Remember she had the grace to apologise and resigned.


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## Wolf (May 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh look quick over there is that a squirrel I see...........
Folk will move on when the story ends........story is still going strong despite Johnson desperately trying to cover up his involvement.
Tory Party are still talking about the Calderwood case [how long ago was that  ]
Cummings situation was much more serious than Calderwood's 
Remember she had the grace to apologise and resigned.
		
Click to expand...

I think the devil maybe wearing a woolly hat today, because for once I'm in total agreement with Doon... I'm off for a lie down. 

Just ignoring something major let's things fester and eats away at the trust of relationships, and this is one that's festering in the relationship between the people and our government.


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## bobmac (May 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think the devil maybe wearing a woolly hat today, because for once I'm in total agreement with Doon... I'm off for a lie down.

Just ignoring something major let's things fester and eats away at the trust of relationships, and this is one that's festering in the relationship between the people and our government.
		
Click to expand...

No-one said ignore it and it will only fester if you let it.
You can ignore it (wrong)
Become obsessed by it (equally wrong)
Or give you're opinion and move on.
I for one prefer the latter.
It's still a nice day


----------



## Foxholer (May 29, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			So has the true identity of Guido Fawkes been revealed :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266026175450820609

Click to expand...

A commentator with an ('utter'ly) impeccable vocabularly!


----------



## Bunkermagnet (May 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just ignoring something major let's things fester and eats away at the trust of relationships, and this is one that's festering in the relationship between the people and our government.
		
Click to expand...

If he had at least apologised and shown some remorse it would probably have dribbled away.
As it is, I don't feel so inclined to follow exactly the guidleines now and will make my own "judgement call" on things. If he hasn't done anything wrong, neither can I or anyone else.


----------



## spongebob59 (May 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			A commentator with an ('utter'ly) impeccable vocabularly!

Click to expand...

Twaddle.😂


----------



## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			As it is, I don't feel so inclined to follow exactly the guidleines now and will make my own "judgement call" on things. If he hasn't done anything wrong, neither can I or anyone else.
		
Click to expand...

As have many for months now. It only puts pressure on others and for what purpose? How does that help reduce infection? Two wrongs don't make a right, particularly where the health of others is involved.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As have many for months now. It only puts pressure on others and for what purpose? How does that help reduce infection? *Two wrongs don't make a right*, particularly where the health of others is involved.
		
Click to expand...

No they don't, but then I'm not a high profile advisor to the leader of the country and Government, nor wealthy enough to own 2 homes at diffenet ends of the country.


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

Dominic Cummings is getting an easier ride here than a Patrick Read. And Read moving a little sand in a bunker has no chance of harming anyone else.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

larmen said:



			Dominic Cummings is getting an easier ride here than a Patrick Read. And Read moving a little sand in a bunker has no chance of harming anyone else.
		
Click to expand...

Reed isn’t a tory.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			No they don't, but then I'm not a high profile advisor to the leader of the country and Government, nor wealthy enough to own 2 homes at diffenet ends of the country.
		
Click to expand...

We all have a head between our shoulders though and can make decisions based on what we think to be right or wrong.


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			No they don't, but then I'm not a high profile advisor to the leader of the country and Government, nor wealthy enough to own 2 homes at diffenet ends of the country.
		
Click to expand...

So, if some far eastern president takes bribes it's ok for the rest of us?
I wasn't aware that Cummings owns the property in Durham.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So, if some far eastern president takes bribes it's ok for the rest of us?
I wasn't aware that Cummings owns the property in Durham.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently it’s his name on the deeds on the property and not his fathers, not sure if left out on purpose as travel to 2nd home was not allowed.


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## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Reed isn’t a tory.

Click to expand...

To be fair, he probably would be if he lived here 😉


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apparently it’s his name on the deeds on the property and not his fathers, not sure if left out on purpose as travel to 2nd home was not allowed.
		
Click to expand...

Your source ?


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apparently it’s his name on the deeds on the property and not his fathers, not sure if left out on purpose as travel to 2nd home was not allowed.
		
Click to expand...

If that’s true that’s exactly the same as the Scottish CMO who resigned and apologised.


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If that’s true that’s exactly the same as the Scottish CMO who resigned and apologised.
		
Click to expand...

If it is true, I am surprised the the police hadn't spotted it when they now say that journey was not an offence.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So, if some far eastern president takes bribes it's ok for the rest of us?
		
Click to expand...

They aren't having direct influence on my Government or the guidance and rules coming from said Governemnt.


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			They aren't having direct influence on my Government or the guidance and rules coming from said Governemnt.

Click to expand...

But you are prepared to break rules simply because others have regardless of the moral or legal rights or wrongs?


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If that’s true that’s exactly the same as the Scottish CMO who resigned and apologised.
		
Click to expand...

No it's not! Calderwood had absolutely no reason/excuse to go to her 2nd home. Cummings (supposedly) did!


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Your source ?
		
Click to expand...

Not checked but easy enough to find out, just spend £3.00 at the land registry for a set of official copies. Registered Deeds are public record.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Your source ?
		
Click to expand...

Photocopy of the Land Registry Document.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Photocopy of the Land Registry Document.
View attachment 30917

Click to expand...

I would add that there are a number of reasons why someone may own a property that the parents live in and it not be a second home. My brother owns the house that my mum lives in.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No it's not! Calderwood had absolutely no reason/excuse to go to her 2nd home. Cummings (supposedly) did!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps she took her virus free family for a wee jaunt to test her car brakes as they were making a funny sort of squeaky noise.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would add that there are a number of reasons why someone may own a property that the parents live in and it not be a second home. My brother owns the house that my mum lives in.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t know the legal definition of 2nd home etc. But it’s not his parents home or were they live and I would suggest it’s not exactly how he described it during his interview. He said something along the lines that it was a spare lodge on the farm.


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Photocopy of the Land Registry Document.
View attachment 30917

Click to expand...

The redacted part suggests there is at least one more owner. 
No reference to who occupies it.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But you are prepared to break rules simply because others have regardless of the moral or legal rights or wrongs?
		
Click to expand...

Like Cummins you mean?


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps she took her virus free family for a wee jaunt to test her car brakes as they were making a funny sort of squeaky noise.

Click to expand...

Kids do that!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The redacted part suggests there is at least one more owner.
No reference to who occupies it.
		
Click to expand...

3 owners, him, his dad and brother.
He described it as an empty property on his fathers farm, at worst he was slightly economical with the truth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

On the OP - to be honest I now have absolutely no idea about which of the rules is a guideline; what is a request; and what is law and enforceable.  Just no idea whatsoever.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps she took her virus free family for a wee jaunt to test her car brakes as they were making a funny sort of squeaky noise.

Click to expand...

What? Two weeks running. 

Needs to get her car serviced.


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## clubchamp98 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If it is true, I am surprised the the police hadn't spotted it when they now say that journey was not an offence.
		
Click to expand...

The one he confessed to on live tv.?
Not sure of what is and what isn’t anymore.
But back then you were told .”you must isolate at home”


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## clubchamp98 (May 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No it's not! Calderwood had absolutely no reason/excuse to go to her 2nd home. Cummings (supposedly) did!
		
Click to expand...

What that he was infected and thought let’s drive 260 miles ?
He only had a reason if you belive his pathetic excuse.
The rule was “stay at home” The one he had a hand in drafting.


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## CliveW (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would add that there are a number of reasons why someone may own a property that the parents live in and it not be a second home.
		
Click to expand...

To avoid death duties and inheritance tax?


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			3 owners, him, his dad and brother.
He described it as an empty property on his fathers farm, at worst he was slightly economical with the truth.
		
Click to expand...

There doesn't seem space to get two more names and addresses in the black area


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## Kellfire (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There doesn't seem space to get two more names and addresses in the black area
		
Click to expand...

There’s more space left than is used for his name and address. 

Could get two names on if they share an address.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There doesn't seem space to get two more names and addresses in the black area
		
Click to expand...

Doesn’t give address’s, just names.


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## Blue in Munich (May 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What that he was infected and thought let’s drive 260 miles ?
He only had a reason if you belive his pathetic excuse.
The rule was “stay at home” The one he had a hand in drafting.
		
Click to expand...

I believe that while the guidelines said stay at home, the relevant Act provides circumstances where you can leave home, two of which appear to apply to Cummings' circumstances as I understand them.


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## Dando (May 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe that while the guidelines said stay at home, the relevant Act provides circumstances where you can leave home, two of which appear to apply to Cummings' circumstances as I understand them.
		
Click to expand...

But according to some he’s worse than Satan and trumps offspring so he must hung drawn and quartered while fatty blackford and the labour mps get off scot free


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## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe that while the guidelines said stay at home, the relevant Act provides circumstances where you can leave home, two of which appear to apply to Cummings' circumstances as I understand them.
		
Click to expand...

Now, now. 

You're letting facts get in the way of a good lynching


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

Dando said:



			But according to some he’s worse than Satan and trumps offspring so he must hung drawn and quartered while fatty blackford and the labour mps get off scot free
		
Click to expand...

And Jenrick.


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## Rlburnside (May 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Now, now. 

You're letting facts get in the way of a good lynching
		
Click to expand...


What about the fact he went back to work after going home to visit his wife, potentially putting others at risk when the advice was to self isolate for 14 days


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			What about the fact he went back to work after going home to visit his wife, potentially putting others at risk when the advice was to self isolate for 14 days
		
Click to expand...

Criticism of a tory unelected bureaucrat is a lynch mob, constant criticism of any opposition is ok and fair game. Please keep up.


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## Rlburnside (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Criticism of a tory unelected bureaucrat is a lynch mob, constant criticism of any opposition is ok and fair game. Please keep up.

Click to expand...


Yea sorry I was getting distracted by the Tory apologists 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe that while the guidelines said stay at home, the relevant Act provides circumstances where you can leave home, two of which appear to apply to Cummings' circumstances as I understand them.
		
Click to expand...

What Cummings did is now water under the bridge - though the issues associated with it may not be.  But on what Cummings did - as I understand it the clarification guidance provided by Jenny Harries that Cummings and many excusing him point to is:

_"Clearly if you have adults who are *unable *to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance"_

I highlight one important word - *unable*

At the time Cummings made the decision he made, neither Cummings nor his wife - never mind both of them as a couple - were that ill that they were *unable *to care for their child.  Indeed at the time they were both perfectly capable of looking after their child at home.

But from what I heard from Cummings in the Rose Garden, he decided that at some point his wife might become so ill that she _wouldn't_ be able to look after their child - it would then be down to him.  He reckoned that he was so important to Johnson and the government that they could not do without him and that working from home whilst looking after their child just wouldn't work - he had to be there.  And so to mitigate the risk of that he made the decision he made.  He blatantly and clearly broke the absolute lockdown rules that we were mostly all trying our utmost to adhere to.  Because he thought himself very important.

As an aside - tell me that nobody at the most senior level of government knew of this decision and OK'd it and I frankly won't believe you.


----------



## Foxholer (May 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What that he was infected and thought let’s drive 260 miles ?
He only had a reason if you belive his pathetic excuse.
The rule was “stay at home” The one he had a hand in drafting.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't state it was anywhere near a 'good' (or believable) one!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What Cummings did is now water under the bridge - though the issues associated with it may not be.  But on what Cummings did - as I understand it the clarification guidance provided by Jenny Harries that Cummings and many excusing him point to is:

_"Clearly if you have adults who are *unable *to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance"_

I highlight one important word - *unable*

At the time Cummings made the decision he made, neither Cummings nor his wife - never mind both of them as a couple - were that ill that they were *unable *to care for their child.  Indeed at the time they were both perfectly capable of looking after their child at home.

But from what I heard from Cummings in the Rose Garden, he decided that at some point his wife might become so ill that she _wouldn't_ be able to look after their child - it would then be down to him.  He reckoned that he was so important to Johnson and the government that they could not do without him and that working from home whilst looking after their child just wouldn't work - he had to be there.  And so to mitigate the risk of that he made the decision he made.  He blatantly and clearly broke the absolute lockdown rules that we were mostly all trying our utmost to adhere to.  Because he thought himself very important.

As an aside - tell me that nobody at the most senior level of government knew of this decision and OK'd it and I frankly won't believe you.
		
Click to expand...

So if, to quote you, he felt himself so important to the operation of government why did he remain in Durham for two weeks?

Was it not that he was concerned that if his wife was developing symptoms he would also end up sufficiently ill to be unable to care for their child.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So if, to quote you, he felt himself so important to the operation of government why did he remain in Durham for two weeks?

Was it not that he was concerned that if his wife was developing symptoms he would also end up sufficiently ill to be unable to care for their child.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, he believed his wife was infected, believed he would become infected as well, panic’d, legged it to Durham to be close to family who could look after his kid if they both were too sick to do it themselves.

Made the decision as a father/husband.


----------



## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Doesn’t give address’s, just names.

Click to expand...

His address is given.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Exactly, he believed his wife was infected, believed he would become infected as well, panic’d, legged it to Durham to be close to family who could look after his kid if they both were too sick to do it themselves.

Made the decision as a father/husband.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, probably the wrong decision and certainly not helped by the Barnard Castle eye-test fiasco but the initial call was one that many might have made as a father. 

I can only imagine that he wasn't thinking straight as he must surely have realised that someone would pick up on it.

But when trying to do the best thing for our children we are all sometimes guilty of acting irrationally.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			His address is.
		
Click to expand...

You’ve lost me

Unless of course you’re saying it’s another Dominic Cummings who owns a property on his dad’s farm.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 29, 2020)

Guys , round and round in circles we are going

Its clear that he isnt going to budge, or be pushed and no amount of gnashing of teeth on here is going to change that.

It has become a bigger story than the pandemic itself and that is wrong, it has diverted the attention away from the important questions, information and advice and that is wrong

So by continuing to discuss it, we are simply prolonging it, yet not coming up with anything new, so whats the point?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys , round and round in circles we are going

Its clear that he isnt going to budge, or be pushed and no amount of gnashing of teeth on here is going to change that.

It has become a bigger story than the pandemic itself and that is wrong, it has diverted the attention away from the important questions, information and advice and that is wrong

So by continuing to discuss it, we are simply prolonging it, yet not coming up with anything new, so whats the point?
		
Click to expand...

What’s being discussed is relevant to the thread title isn’t it?

Surely the whole point of this seperate thread was to avoid other threads being took of track?


----------



## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys , round and round in circles we are going

Its clear that he isnt going to budge, or be pushed and no amount of gnashing of teeth on here is going to change that.

It has become a bigger story than the pandemic itself and that is wrong, it has diverted the attention away from the important questions, information and advice and that is wrong

So by continuing to discuss it, we are simply prolonging it, yet not coming up with anything new, so whats the point?
		
Click to expand...

None whatsoever. 

Which is exactly my point


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			None whatsoever.

Which is exactly my point
		
Click to expand...

So when a fellow forum member asks a question to another we should just ignore them?

Personally I believe that would rude and not the behaviour expected.


----------



## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Yea sorry I was getting distracted by the Tory apologists 😉
		
Click to expand...

Can you list the Tory apologists??

Be interesting to see who they are?


----------



## Crow (May 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			None whatsoever.

Which is exactly my point
		
Click to expand...

Yet you can't stop posting on the thread.


----------



## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’ve lost me

Unless of course you’re saying it’s another Dominic Cummings who owns a property on his dad’s farm.
		
Click to expand...

His address is shown as the same as the house. Who is/are the others and what address(es) do they have on the registration form.
Perhaps he lived there when the original registration was made and hasn't lived there since.
There is more unknown than known.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			His address is shown as the same as the house. Who is/are the others and what address(es) do they have on the registration form.
Perhaps he lived there when the original registration was made and hasn't lived there since.
There is more unknown than known.
		
Click to expand...

The address is as shown for the property were he stayed in April:
North Lodge, Darlington Road, Durham, DH1 3SU
It is owned by him, his brother and his dad. ie a third each.
The information is current as at 28 May 2020 at 12:43:03, ie Yesterday.
All the above information was on the picture I posted.

It is what you receive from the Land Registry when you submit a property request.


----------



## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

Crow said:



			Yet you can't stop posting on the thread. 

Click to expand...

No 😂. It's like a grubby crack habit!


----------



## 2blue (May 29, 2020)

These 2 have 'blagged' their way through life & will continue to do so as long as folk tire of the fight & give-in to them. It's a thankless task & that's what they rely on.


----------



## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys , round and round in circles we are going

Its clear that he isnt going to budge, or be pushed and no amount of gnashing of teeth on here is going to change that.

It has become a bigger story than the pandemic itself and that is wrong, it has diverted the attention away from the important questions, information and advice and that is wrong

So by continuing to discuss it, we are simply prolonging it, yet not coming up with anything new, so whats the point?
		
Click to expand...

Is this Forum Phil or Mod Phil?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			These 2 have 'blagged' their way through life & will continue to do so as long as folk tire of the fight & give-in to them. It's a thankless task & that's what they rely on.
		
Click to expand...

Have you seen this mate, just a small discrepancy between what Mary wrote in the Spectator and cummings said in his statement:


----------



## Rlburnside (May 30, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Can you list the Tory apologists??

Be interesting to see who they are?
		
Click to expand...


It's really quite obvious you shouldn't need me to point them out.


----------



## Fish (May 30, 2020)

The lynch mob are mainly, if not not all hardened remaoners, isn't all this Brexit (there you go, that's torn it) driven, in that, get Cumming's out and delay/derail Brexit?

How's that for a bit of expansion Phil


----------



## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you seen this mate, just a small discrepancy between what Mary wrote in the Spectator and cummings said in his statement:
View attachment 30923

Click to expand...

At one point during his interviews in the Rose Garden he said that his wife didn't have it when they drove north. If she didn't have it, why go north at all?

The cynic in me actually half believes the point Hogie made weeks ago, i.e. that Cummings ran from Downing Street like a scared rabbit. And didn't stop running till he reached Durham.

I wonder if he ever had Covid at all?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Is this Forum Phil or Mod Phil?
		
Click to expand...

Forum Phil 

Not a mod issue 👍


----------



## bluewolf (May 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Forum Phil

Not a mod issue 👍
		
Click to expand...

Ah right....

Get stuffed then.....😂😂😂


----------



## bobmac (May 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ah right....

Get stuffed then.....😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

If it's a fight he wants, come on Phil follow me, I'm right behind you


----------



## 2blue (May 30, 2020)

Dib, dib, Dob, Dob, tuck those Brexar$e$ in right now.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If it's a fight he wants, come on Phil follow me, I'm right behind you
		
Click to expand...

I’m not after a fight, just pointing out the sheer futility of it.  And the longer it keeps being discussed, the longer other more important matters are not.

And (mod hat on now) Dave, can we cut out this Dib dib stuff, nobody knows what you are on about 👍


----------



## Bunkermagnet (May 30, 2020)

Kaz said:



			My initial thought on this was to tell you to get over yourself Robin. Brexit happened, we left the EU. You won.

But thinking more deeply I concede that there does seem to be a correlation between Brexit views and DC defence/condemnation. I wonder why that is? For my part it’s not some sort of bizarre retribution because I recognise the need for the country to pull together to respond to the pandemic. Instead I am motivated to criticise precisely because he has put himself outside of the common good and chosen to do precisely what the government he serves was telling up not to do.

So why do brexiters tend to support him and remainers broadly criticise him? I think it comes down to the personal fundamentals that divided us in the first place. Not “morality” as such, that’s the wrong word and a different thing  but “outlook” or “attitude”.

For me arguments in favour of the EU were always the ideals of people coming together and cooperating for the benefit of us all. I know there were many frustrations with how they went about that and obviously don’t want to get back into a Brexit debate. But, for me, leaving the EU meant turning away from that cooperation and putting ourselves ahead of the “greater good” (for lack of a better term).

It seems there are parallels to our current situation. We all need to make personal sacrifices for the greater good. Perhaps the same outlook that informed our views on Brexit also affects our response to the pandemic. Could it be that brexiters are more forgiving of those who place their personal desires above their civic duty at this time?

Truth is I don’t know but it was interesting to think through. Thanks for raising it Robin. 

Click to expand...

Very well articulated, and something I hadn't thought about but can see as being a very valid point


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2020)

Cummings drives a horse and cart through public trust in this government.
Chris Cairns cartoon catches the moment and mood.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/coach.jpg


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## rudebhoy (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you seen this mate, just a small discrepancy between what Mary wrote in the Spectator and cummings said in his statement:
View attachment 30923

Click to expand...

so which one is telling porkies? or did he drive to the hospital with a high fever, having spasms?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m not after a fight, just pointing out the sheer futility of it.  And the longer it keeps being discussed, the longer other more important matters are not.
		
Click to expand...

Who decides though Phil? As much as I support his decision to drive to Durham, there are a few inconsistiencies in his story, do these inconsistencies show a pattern? Is this pattern something we want at the highest levels of Government.

Let’s pretend for one minute his critics are right and in the future he or someone in a similar position decides to do something which is wrong, but takes the attitude of “who cares, it’ll all blow over in a couple of weeks”

Or, decides to “misbehave” during another crisis with the attitude of “we’ll get away with it as it’s less important”

There has to be accountability at all levels and a lot of this could of been avoided with better communication and dare I say, a bit more honesty.

The same media that are being derided as scum currently were being wined, dined and used just a few months ago.

As for discussing/debating on here being futile, that could apply to 95% of threads.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 30, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Very well articulated, and something I hadn't thought about but can see as being a very valid point

Click to expand...

Except it's inevitably a massive generalisation. 

In post #409 I could be seen as defending, albeit with qualification, the actions of Cummings. 

Yet in 2016 I not only voted Remain but also involved myself actively in the campaign (such as it was).


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Except it's inevitably a massive generalisation.

In post #409 I could be seen as defending, albeit with qualification, the actions of Cummings.

Yet in 2016 I not only voted Remain but also involved myself actively in the campaign (such as it was).
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Brexit is a bi-product of the divide, it seems more like people with a dislike or even hatred of Conservatism are driving one side of the debate.


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## JamesR (May 30, 2020)

So, Looks like Dom won’t be going anywhere soon, but looks like Jenrick has been a naughty boy again...🤔


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## PhilTheFragger (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Who decides though Phil? As much as I support his decision to drive to Durham, there are a few inconsistiencies in his story, do these inconsistencies show a pattern? Is this pattern something we want at the highest levels of Government.

Let’s pretend for one minute his critics are right and in the future he or someone in a similar position decides to do something which is wrong, but takes the attitude of “who cares, it’ll all blow over in a couple of weeks”

Or, decides to “misbehave” during another crisis with the attitude of “we’ll get away with it as it’s less important”

There has to be accountability at all levels and a lot of this could of been avoided with better communication and dare I say, a bit more honesty.

The same media that are being derided as scum currently were being wined, dined and used just a few months ago.

As for discussing/debating on here being futile, that could apply to 95% of threads.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree with you, hopefully it will be a wake up call to anyone in such a position contemplating such a thing

It’s just becoming incredibly tedious and boring when there are much more important things to concentrate on.


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## drdel (May 30, 2020)

DC made a subjective decision based entirely on his feelings at the moment. As with all subjective stuff the context and personal decision will be at variance with the opinions of others. We are not in his shoes so there will never be agreement


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe Brexit is a bi-product of the divide, it seems more like people with a dislike or even hatred of Conservatism are driving one side of the debate.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I fear it has more to do with the need of some people to pigeonhole both those they agree with and those with differing opinions.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Sadly I fear it has more to do with the need of some people to pigeonhole both those they agree with and those with differing opinions.
		
Click to expand...

But isn't exactly what those "hard liners" on each side of the referendum have done?
No longer are you Labour, Consrvative etc etc but now just "Brexiteer or Remainer"
You can't call a spade a spade and then complain when someone uses it to dig a hole.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 30, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But isn't exactly what those "hard liners" on each side of the referendum have done?
No longer are you Labour, Consrvative etc etc but now just "Brexiteer or Remainer"
You can't call a spade a spade and then complain when someone uses it to dig a hole.

Click to expand...

Don't ask me. 

I believe people can hold apparently contradictory opinions on a range of issues.


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## patricks148 (May 30, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So, Looks like Dom won’t be going anywhere soon, but looks like Jenrick has been a naughty boy again...🤔[/QUOTE

who ?? never heard of him

Click to expand...


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2020)

I voted to leave the EU.
Mainly to get rid of people we didn’t vote for who think they can do as they like!
I think Cummings should be sacked.
Nobody voted for him and he thinks he can do as he likes.
Do we really want people like that making policy for us .


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## rudebhoy (May 30, 2020)

Jenrick has admitted that he showed bias when he tried to help the owner of The Express and The Daily Star avoid £40m in tax.

That to me is far worse than what Cummings did, and he really should be sacked for that.


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Jenrick has admitted that he showed bias when he tried to help the owner of The Express and The Daily Star avoid £40m in tax.

That to me is far worse than what Cummings did, and he really should be sacked for that.
		
Click to expand...

If that’s true then I agree he should be sacked.
Unless he’s a part time accountant.


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## 2blue (May 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m not after a fight, just pointing out the sheer futility of it.  And the longer it keeps being discussed, the longer other more important matters are not.

And (mod hat on now) Dave, *can we cut out this Dib dib stuff,* nobody knows what you are on about 👍
		
Click to expand...

Why pick on my words when there are loads of folk coming out with stuff that none of us can make any sense of?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 30, 2020)

2blue said:



			Why pick on my words when there are loads of folk coming out with stuff that none of us can make any sense of? 

Click to expand...

Possibly so, but your words are derogatory, so it needs to stop please 👍


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## rudebhoy (May 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If that’s true then I agree he should be sacked.
Unless he’s a part time accountant.
		
Click to expand...

Labour has urged the Cabinet Office to investigate why the housing secretary intervened in a controversial London planning decision that could have saved a Conservative party donor tens of millions of pounds.
Robert Jenrick, the housing, communities and local government secretary, knew that the former media tycoon Richard Desmond had only 24 hours to have an East End property development approved before hefty community charges were imposed on the billionaire’s project. The imposition of Tower Hamlets council’s community infrastructure levy (CIL) would have cost Desmond at least £40m.
Jenrick later accepted that approval of the Isle of Dogs project was unlawful.
In a letter to the cabinet secretary, Sir Mark Sedwill, the shadow housing and planning minister, Mike Amesbury, said Jenrick’s decision to back the proposed development was “deeply concerning” and that the Cabinet Office should fully investigate the matter.
“Serious questions need to be answered about why this decision was taken, a decision which could have saved a Conservative donor tens of millions of pounds, and in the process deprived local residents of vital infrastructure funding,” he wrote.
 “It’s essential that we have transparency in processes such as this so that trust can be maintained in our housing and planning system.
 “I hope the Cabinet Office will uphold this spirit of transparency, do the right thing and conduct a thorough investigation into the events around this decision.”
Documents disclosed earlier this week from the consent order for the development showed Jenrick was aware that the council-imposed CIL would have been introduced on 15 January this year.
Against the advice of his own planning inspector, he gave the go-ahead for the construction of more than 1,500 apartments in a 44-storey complex on 14 January.
CILs were to be used to tax large property developments at £280 per sq metre, with the money raised being used to build schools and health clinics in the council area.
Point 4 of the consent order relating to the project states: “In pre-action correspondence, pursuant to the duty of candour, the first defendant explained the DL (decision letter) was issued on 14 January 2020 so that it would be issued before the claimant (Tower Hamlets) adopt its new local plan and CIL charging schedule.”
Tower Hamlets council took legal action against Jenrick, claiming the timing of his decision appeared to show bias towards the former owner of the Daily Star, Daily Express and Sunday Express. 
The council asked the court to order the government to disclose all correspondence between the housing secretary and government officials about the decision.
*Jenrick accepted his decision did show “apparent bias” *and recused himself from any future decisions over Desmond’s planned residential project on the site of the old Westferrry Road printworks.
One of those who had raised objections to the project was the ministry’s own planning inspection officer, who said the development would damage views of Tower Bridge.
Desmond sold his Express and Star titles two years ago. The 68-year-old’s company Northern & Shell, which is behind the Isle of Dogs development, donated £10,000 to the Conservatives in 2017 and £1m to Ukip in 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ory-robert-jenrick-helped-donor-avoid-40m-tax


The housing secretary unlawfully approved a property development of a billionaire tycoon who once donated to the Conservative Party.
Robert Jenrick has accepted that he showed “apparent bias” when he gave the green light for Richard Desmond to build 1,500 homes in the Isle of Dogs, east London. The timing of the decision meant that the mogul avoided a £40 million bill over the scheme.
Mr Jenrick agreed that planning approval should be quashed after the council initiated legal action against him alleging that the timing showed bias. Mr Jenrick rubber-stamped the scheme against the advice of the government’s planning inspector.
The leader of the local Conservative group resigned over the decision and has called for an investigation.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...backed-moguls-1bn-isle-of-dogs-deal-kxgw67jlj


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

Quite a decent(?) article in the Guardian. Balanced without being silly. Perhaps more importantly it talks about how the public feels, not an is it, isn't it sort of article. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...nic-cummings-crisis/ar-BB14NSrY?ocid=msedgntp 

When Boris was on earlier this week, defending Cummings, I didn't neither agree nor disagree. I just turned him off. For me, Boris has failed at a fundamental level. He has 'burned' my trust in him as a PM. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want him there in the first place but whilst he does sit in that chair I expect him to be honourable and do the right thing. I might not agree with him politically but I want him to succeed for the country. Now, whatever trust I had in him, thin though it was, it is 'burned.'

We're stuck with Johnson for the foreseeable. If he wants to recover anything from this appalling episode he needs to 'take back control' and sack Cummings.


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Labour has urged the Cabinet Office to investigate why the housing secretary intervened in a controversial London planning decision that could have saved a Conservative party donor tens of millions of pounds.
Robert Jenrick, the housing, communities and local government secretary, knew that the former media tycoon Richard Desmond had only 24 hours to have an East End property development approved before hefty community charges were imposed on the billionaire’s project. The imposition of Tower Hamlets council’s community infrastructure levy (CIL) would have cost Desmond at least £40m.
Jenrick later accepted that approval of the Isle of Dogs project was unlawful.
In a letter to the cabinet secretary, Sir Mark Sedwill, the shadow housing and planning minister, Mike Amesbury, said Jenrick’s decision to back the proposed development was “deeply concerning” and that the Cabinet Office should fully investigate the matter.
“Serious questions need to be answered about why this decision was taken, a decision which could have saved a Conservative donor tens of millions of pounds, and in the process deprived local residents of vital infrastructure funding,” he wrote.
“It’s essential that we have transparency in processes such as this so that trust can be maintained in our housing and planning system.
“I hope the Cabinet Office will uphold this spirit of transparency, do the right thing and conduct a thorough investigation into the events around this decision.”
Documents disclosed earlier this week from the consent order for the development showed Jenrick was aware that the council-imposed CIL would have been introduced on 15 January this year.
Against the advice of his own planning inspector, he gave the go-ahead for the construction of more than 1,500 apartments in a 44-storey complex on 14 January.
CILs were to be used to tax large property developments at £280 per sq metre, with the money raised being used to build schools and health clinics in the council area.
Point 4 of the consent order relating to the project states: “In pre-action correspondence, pursuant to the duty of candour, the first defendant explained the DL (decision letter) was issued on 14 January 2020 so that it would be issued before the claimant (Tower Hamlets) adopt its new local plan and CIL charging schedule.”
Tower Hamlets council took legal action against Jenrick, claiming the timing of his decision appeared to show bias towards the former owner of the Daily Star, Daily Express and Sunday Express.
The council asked the court to order the government to disclose all correspondence between the housing secretary and government officials about the decision.
*Jenrick accepted his decision did show “apparent bias” *and recused himself from any future decisions over Desmond’s planned residential project on the site of the old Westferrry Road printworks.
One of those who had raised objections to the project was the ministry’s own planning inspection officer, who said the development would damage views of Tower Bridge.
Desmond sold his Express and Star titles two years ago. The 68-year-old’s company Northern & Shell, which is behind the Isle of Dogs development, donated £10,000 to the Conservatives in 2017 and £1m to Ukip in 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ory-robert-jenrick-helped-donor-avoid-40m-tax


The housing secretary unlawfully approved a property development of a billionaire tycoon who once donated to the Conservative Party.
Robert Jenrick has accepted that he showed “apparent bias” when he gave the green light for Richard Desmond to build 1,500 homes in the Isle of Dogs, east London. The timing of the decision meant that the mogul avoided a £40 million bill over the scheme.
Mr Jenrick agreed that planning approval should be quashed after the council initiated legal action against him alleging that the timing showed bias. Mr Jenrick rubber-stamped the scheme against the advice of the government’s planning inspector.
The leader of the local Conservative group resigned over the decision and has called for an investigation.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...backed-moguls-1bn-isle-of-dogs-deal-kxgw67jlj

Click to expand...

Unfortunately that sort of thing dosnt shock me anymore.
Did the investigation go ahead?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2020)

Unbelievable 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-three-people-hurt-jumping-cliff.html:unsure:


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## rulefan (May 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If he wants to recover anything from this appalling episode he needs to 'take back control' and sack Cummings.
		
Click to expand...

He has taken control and shown he is the boss by not sacking Cummings.


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## drdel (May 30, 2020)

Apparently, one 'witness's story was made up for a joke. The other had himself driven to Ascot to collect his daughter.

So the DC saga continues.


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## IainP (May 31, 2020)

Different countries, although I think at least once the "one rule for them,  one rule for us" comment has been posted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52864072


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## spongebob59 (May 31, 2020)

A local MP , Rosie Duffield, has admitted breaking lockdown rules, she's apologised, a big difference to DC I guess.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A local MP , Rosie Duffield, has admitted breaking lockdown rules, she's apologised, a big difference to DC I guess.
		
Click to expand...

She has also resigned as a Labour whip. Fancy accepting you have done something wrong and take responsibility for it. Do you think it will catch on? 🤔


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## Fish (May 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			She has also resigned as a Labour whip. Fancy accepting you have done something wrong and take responsibility for it. Do you think it will catch on? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

She’s still an MP though getting £80,000 a year plus expenses. 

She's lost/resigned the whip nothing more...


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## ger147 (May 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			She’s still an MP though getting £80,000 a year plus expenses.

She's lost/resigned the whip nothing more...
		
Click to expand...

Not quite - she was a Labour whip and has resigned from that post so she is no longer a member of the Labour front bench. She has not resigned the Labour whip i.e. she is still a member of the parliamentary Labour party.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			She’s still an MP though getting £80,000 a year plus expenses.

She's lost/resigned the whip nothing more...
		
Click to expand...

As Ger has said, she has lost a position of authority and she has dropped down the promotion ladder. She can come back from this because she resigned so quickly but in the short term at least she has been tarnished.


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## Beezerk (May 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			As Ger has said, she has lost a position of authority and she has dropped down the promotion ladder. She can come back from this because she resigned so quickly but in the short term at least she has been tarnished.
		
Click to expand...

But she hasn't been sacked?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			But she hasn't been sacked?
		
Click to expand...

No need to sack her, she resigned. If she had not resigned then I would have expected Starmer to sack her from the Whips office


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## Imurg (May 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No need to sack her, she resigned. If she had not resigned then I would have expected Starmer to sack her from the Whips office
		
Click to expand...

All she's got is a demotion....she still has her job.


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			All she's got is a demotion....she still has her job.
		
Click to expand...

 A demotion means she doesn’t have the same job. :/


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## Imurg (May 31, 2020)

Her job is Member of Parliament for wherever.
In addition she took on other responsibilities which she has now chosen not to do
She still has her job.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			All she's got is a demotion....she still has her job.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, you mean as an mp? The other people who have resigned on lockdown related breaches in England and Scotland, have not lost their jobs totally, they lost their roles as senior advisers or similar relating to their Covid roles. They have gone from being part of the key decision making committees to purely doing their original jobs. If you mean in terms of Cummings he could have remained as an advisor in some capacity but I would argue, and have, that he should no longer be advising in No 10 or at the top table.


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## patricks148 (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Her job is Member of Parliament for wherever.
In addition she took on other responsibilities which she has now chosen not to do
She still has her job.
		
Click to expand...

how could she be sacked she is an MP not an employee, the only people who can sack her are her constituants, which would mean a bi election.

she apologised, which is more than you can say for Cummings, so not sure what you point is


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## Imurg (May 31, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			how could she be sacked she is an MP not an employee, the only people who cab sack her are her constituants, which would mean a bi election.

she apologised, which is more than you can say for Cummings, so not sure what you point is
		
Click to expand...

The point is half the country is baying for Cummings to get sacked - by the way I'm on their side.
If he were sacked then he would not continue in a role, I presume, within the Civil Service. He would not have a job
But, it seems, you can resign as a Whip when you've been caught breaching lockdown but still keep your job which, in this case, is a Member of Parliament. So she still has her job.


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## patricks148 (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The point is half the country is baying for Cummings to get sacked - by the way I'm on their side.
If he were sacked then he would not continue in a role, I presume, within the Civil Service. He would not have a job
But, it seems, you can resign as a Whip when you've been caught breaching lockdown but still keep your job which, in this case, is a Member of Parliament. So she still has her job.
		
Click to expand...

i don't know if you missed it but DC hasn't been sacked, resigned or even apologised.
plus its different rules for MPs, for instance when Boris was sacked  from his shadow Cab position back in 2004, but was still an MP, Gavin Williamson, aslo sacked from his Job as Defence Minister... still and MP.. Preti Patel forced to res.... from her last job... get the picture now


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The point is half the country is baying for Cummings to get sacked - by the way I'm on their side.
If he were sacked then he would not continue in a role, I presume, within the Civil Service. He would not have a job
But, it seems, you can resign as a Whip when you've been caught breaching lockdown but still keep your job which, in this case, is a Member of Parliament. So she still has her job.
		
Click to expand...

Or you can be caught breaching the lockdown, argue you never (as every other MP caught has done) keep being an MP, keep the extra positions and hope your constituents don’t punish you at the next GE.

As MP’s haven’t been sacked, I stand by my previous post that any of them who believed the lockdown didn’t apply to them and were caught, should of been reprimanded and fined (Donated to NHS Charities) by their Party.


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## Imurg (May 31, 2020)

Hey, it's personal opinion and neither is probably going to happen....
So it is one rule for MPs and another for us then...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Hey, it's personal opinion and neither is probably going to happen....
So it is one rule for MPs and another for us then...

Click to expand...

Not just one rule for MP’s the idiot footballers weren’t sacked either.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Hey, it's personal opinion and neither is probably going to happen....
So it is one rule for MPs and another for us then...

Click to expand...

Neither of the two govt health advisors, English and Scottish, lost their jobs. The list keeps expanding. 

If Cummings,  I assume this is who we are keeping coming back to, was fully removed, he could just stay in the background, he would not be on his uppers. The money he could make as a speaker, advisor for hire, election winning specialist, the inevitable book etc will dwarf what he makes now. I would not be shedding tears for him, he will be okay.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Neither of the two govt health advisors, English and Scottish, lost their jobs. The list keeps expanding.

If Cummings,  I assume this is who we are keeping coming back to, was fully removed, he could just stay in the background, he would not be on his uppers. The money he could make as a speaker, advisor for hire, election winning specialist, the inevitable book etc will dwarf what he makes now. I would not be shedding tears for him, he will be okay.
		
Click to expand...

I think you have Johnson's future plan muddled up with Johnson.
I remember when Johnson got elected my daughter said, he won't last long, he does not want the job just the title of 'Former British PM' to trade on for the rest of his life.


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## rulefan (May 31, 2020)

Given that the people at the back have had different groups in their conservatory nearly every day for month and the couple across the road have had their son and his family staying for the last couple of nights , I guess that lockdown doesn't mean much to many people.


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Given that the people at the back have had different groups in their conservatory nearly every day for month and the couple across the road have had their son and his family staying for the last couple of nights , I guess that lockdown doesn't mean much to many people.
		
Click to expand...

I’ll say it again - REPORT THEM.


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## rulefan (Jun 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’ll say it again - REPORT THEM.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not bothered if they want to take a chance on being infected or passing on any infection to their 'friends'.
I know my household and my dispersed family take great care. They are my primary concern.

But I understood the police in effect could take no action as they cannot go on private property if a crime has not been committed but only a regulation breached.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’ll say it again - REPORT THEM.
		
Click to expand...

Cummings was reported for breaking the rules look what happened there.


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## Beezerk (Jun 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’ll say it again - REPORT THEM.
		
Click to expand...

Oh the fun of being your neighbour 😆


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