# Thatcher, history will show...



## JohnnyDee (Jan 11, 2016)

The thread about the 80s has caused me to ponder a little.

I'm a member of a golf club, a thing perhaps which is something of a bastion of middle or upper class aspirationalism.

I was born and raised on a massive council estate, at one time it was Europe's largest, and therefore probably on Dave's newly announced hit-list, and so hardly surprisingly my politics lean in a leftwards direction and are not aligned with those of many of my fellow members and friends at my club.

Many of my PPs are politically right-leaning in their views, and out of the 24 of us in our weekend group, there's probably only me and one or possibly two others who would argue against  Maggie's record being prepared to point out its horrible selfish agenda.

When the thorny subject of politics arises, either in the bar or out on the course, I am saddened by the rose-coloured glasses applied to Thatcher's regiem and her time overall as PM by so many. 

She was an extremely capable politician, no doubt about that, but she was an ogre when one (ooh, get me with my fancy talk) considers her lack of empathy and compassion towards those unable to help themselves in her greed-fuelled deplorably me-me-me first driven society.

Sadly most of those fans, both then and now, seem to have been happy to have been able to make a penny in the pound for themselves rather than have donated it to those less fortunate than them but in dire need of it.

Shame on them and their sickening greed.


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## ruff-driver (Jan 11, 2016)

Did you not see the memo from mike H

Strictly no more politics threads , ever


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 11, 2016)

ruff-driver said:



			Did you not see the memo from mike H

Strictly no more politics threads , ever 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Oops, sorry but I didn't 

If mods would like to delete this then please feel free to do so.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2016)

Before they do am getting me two bobs worth in quickly.

to discuss Lady Thatcher you really had to live through her time in office to appreciate ? Her influence in politics.

Me if she was on fire my bladder remained full.

However my parents loved her, the fact the bought cutprice shares in nationalised industry's and made a fortune selling them later the same year was lost on them.
The fact now we don't have enough council houses coz they were sold off is lost on them.

yeah can see this thread being locked before the end of page one &#128513;


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## MikeH (Jan 12, 2016)

Eh, Don't remember anything about political threads! Crack on. Just keep it as civil as any political discussion can be!


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.


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## Smiffy (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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Is the correct answer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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But surely we want our political leaders to look after all and if there are losers then they (what ever party they are) have got it wrong.
You can't say they were ok because some benefitted.
She absolutely split the Country and turned families on each other. How can that be justified by anyone, It was the start to people losing respect for authority and we're still answering for it today.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			But surely we want our political leaders to look after all and if there are losers then they (what ever party they are) have got it wrong.
You can't say they were ok because some benefitted.
She absolutely split the Country and turned families on each other. How can that be justified by anyone, It was the start to people losing respect for authority and we're still answering for it today.
		
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I don't see any political party in power pleasing or caring for everyone. The current Government can be very divisive depending on your point of view but she did do 3 terms in office so someone must have liked her!


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## shewy (Jan 12, 2016)

the oil boom in the UK saved the country not Thatcher, and as the saying goes the peed it all against the wall


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

MikeH said:



			Eh, Don't remember anything about political threads! Crack on. Just keep it as civil as any political discussion can be!
		
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I believe I am the originator of the two biggest threads on here...Rangers and Scotland Debate.
If threads on those two subjects can remain civil I think there is hope for all of us.:lol:

Regarding Thatcher, I gave her my vote in her first two elections, as did the entire 10/12 members of my green staff at that time.
The unions were in control of Labour and running the UK into the ground, as Chris D says, she was the right person at the right time.
Trouble was that she started believing all the things that the press were writing about her and went a bit dooladdy.

OP.........Shock horror........ members of a Berkshire golf club worship Maggie.......who would have thunk that.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 12, 2016)

So just out of interest, when it comes to an election (local or general or anything I guess really) do you think people vote for the result thats best for them or do people really sit down and think about the big picture.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I believe I am the originator of the two biggest threads on here...Rangers and Scotland Debate.
If threads on those two subjects can remain civil I think there is hope for all of us.:lol:

Regarding Thatcher, I gave her my vote in her first two elections, as did the entire 10/12 members of my green staff at that time.
The unions were in control of Labour and running the UK into the ground, as Chris D says, she was the right person at the right time.
Trouble was that she started believing all the things that the press were writing about her and went a bit dooladdy.

OP.........Shock horror........ members of a Berkshire golf club worship Maggie.......who would have thunk that.
		
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Even more "shock horror" we agree on something :lol::lol:


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## delc (Jan 12, 2016)

Although I was Young Conservative and a supporter of the Conservative Party, I personally couldn't stand the woman. I thought she was nasty and vindictive, and represented everything that is wrong with the Tory Party!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			But surely we want our political leaders to look after all and if there are losers then they (what ever party they are) have got it wrong.
You can't say they were ok because some benefitted.
She absolutely split the Country and turned families on each other. How can that be justified by anyone, It was the start to people losing respect for authority and we're still answering for it today.
		
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Is the correct answer. &#128513;

The People that loved her were the people that got something out of her. They were the winners. 
The people that hated her where the ones that came from split families due to her policies. That was me. 
The events and memories that unfolded at Orgreave Coke plant will stay with for the rest of my life. Put the antics of the picket lines on top of that and they were definately not good days. My thoughts on her are and always will be quite clear.
Do take on board that Labour were dire as opposition, and Mr Corbyn is a throwback to those days. But the thread is about Missis T.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			The thread about the 80s has caused me to ponder a little.
*
I'm a member of a golf club, a thing perhaps which is something of a bastion of middle or upper class aspirationalism.*

I was born and raised on a massive council estate, at one time it was Europe's largest, and therefore probably on Dave's newly announced hit-list, and so hardly surprisingly my politics lean in a leftwards direction and are not aligned with those of many of my fellow members and friends at my club.

Many of my PPs are politically right-leaning in their views, and out of the 24 of us in our weekend group, there's probably only me and one or possibly two others who would argue against  Maggie's record being prepared to point out its horrible selfish agenda.

When the thorny subject of politics arises, either in the bar or out on the course, I am saddened by the rose-coloured glasses applied to Thatcher's regiem and her time overall as PM by so many. 

She was an extremely capable politician, no doubt about that, but she was an ogre when one (ooh, get me with my fancy talk) considers her lack of empathy and compassion towards those unable to help themselves in her greed-fuelled deplorably me-me-me first driven society.

Sadly most of those fans, both then and now, seem to have been happy to have been able to make a penny in the pound for themselves rather than have donated it to those less fortunate than them but in dire need of it.

Shame on them and their sickening greed.
		
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Coming from roughly the same area as Tashyboy I am sure you can guess my views on Mrs Thatch.  Yes I was not directly effected as Tashyboy was, but I saw the despair and hopelessness she brought on many areas near where I grew up.  Which you could argue she just left to rot. And creating a divided society is one of the by products you will always get with a conservative government as most of their policies will lead to this.  There was even a comment the other day by the leader of Ofsted (who by no means are a left leading organisation) that their current obsessions with academies in education is leading to a 2 tier education system where, 'surprise surprise' the best will get better and attract the best teachers and the worst ones will get worse. And I am sure you can guess roughly what MPs are in the areas where the better school are and which MPs are where the ones that are struggling are . Just one example.

Also I'd say that one of the problems with golf clubs now is that they are no longer aspiration for a lot of people. Although some golf clubs seem to think they are.  But that's another thread.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Is the correct answer. &#128513;

The People that loved her were the people that got something out of her. They were the winners. 
The people that hated her where the ones that came from split families due to her policies. That was me. 
The events and memories that unfolded at Orgreave Coke plant will stay with for the rest of my life. Put the antics of the picket lines on top of that and they were definately not good days. My thoughts on her are and always will be quite clear.
Do take on board that Labour were dire as opposition, and Mr Corbyn is a throwback to those days. But the thread is about Missis T.
		
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I can quite understand how you resent her but do you not blame Scargill and the other union leaders who forced her hand at the time? I agree that her closing many of the pits was revenge and quite wrong but the country was been ruined by the unions at that time


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Is the correct answer. &#128513;

The People that loved her were the people that got something out of her. They were the winners. 
The people that hated her where the ones that came from split families due to her policies. That was me. 
The events and memories that unfolded at Orgreave Coke plant will stay with for the rest of my life. Put the antics of the picket lines on top of that and they were definately not good days. My thoughts on her are and always will be quite clear.
Do take on board that Labour were dire as opposition, and Mr Corbyn is a throwback to those days. But the thread is about Missis T.
		
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She existed because of the antics of the unions. Many self employed people and small business owners went burst due to Labour Government policies that were doing unsustainable pay deals to nationalised industries like rail, steel and coal.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She existed because of the antics of the unions. Many self employed people and small business owners went burst due to Labour Government policies that were doing unsustainable pay deals to nationalised industries like rail, steel and coal.
		
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I will try and answer two posts in one and then go and get wet in the golf.

Scargill, he is another one that when his name is mentioned my bladder shall remain full if he is on fire, along with other lesser known Union men who used the strike for there own personal means, included in that that is financial gains. Google Neil Greatrex and Mick Stevens who have robbed miners funds of hundreds of thousands of pounds. 
Did you know Scargill wanted to buy the penthouse suite he was living in free of charge which was owned by the Union. He wanted to invoke a rule brought in by non other than Thatcher. It went to court and he lost the case. The greedy **** took his own Union to court. 
Do not for one minute think that all miner supported Scargill or the breakaway Union the UDM. Ten of thousands of miners were between a rock and a hard place re Scargill and Thatcher. bullying and violence were rife from both the police ( mainly the Metropolitan)  and pickets towards innocent miners who just wanted to work.
The miners who had there heads kicked in did not support Scargill

Re small companies going bust, don't know if they did so unlike some on this forum I won't argue against that point, But and using that point alone. Thatcher shut pit after pit after pit that was making tens of millions of pounds for the tax payer every year without subsidys. That is what turned a lot of miners against Thatcher. Some believed that what she was doing in shutting down loss making pits was correct but when there profit making pits were shut that's when a lot of miners turned against her.
Went to a photo exhibition launch at Mansfield Museum Friday night, it is on for a good month or so. Chris Upton photography ( check out his site ) took a load of photos and I was involved in helping him. Mark Spencer Tory MP for Newark and Sherwood was there to help launch it. Knob. He said we must not forget that having our own energy helped us win two world wars. Yeah right oh Mark. His words stuck in the throat of every miner there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2016)

...that she is a root cause of the eventual break up of the Union.

Because hard as though Cameron and Osborne are trying, they will struggle to achieve the level of love felt towards Thatcher in Scotland.


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## Ross61 (Jan 12, 2016)

Thatcher is the reason why our industries and utilities are no longer British owned. Thatcher is the reason we have no social housing stock and our children can't afford to move out of their parents home. 
 There are areas of the country, mainly in the north, that were allowed to just crumble because it suited her.
 The main reason she won her second term in office was that she called the election to coincide with the anniversary of the Falklands war and rose the tide of all the appreciation toward the armed forces that secured the tiny little British outpost, that probably never have been taken in the first place if Britain had shown interest in keeping it and defending it. I was amongst many people, at the time, that did not know it was anywhere near Argentina.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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I tend to shy away from political debate as I'm not good with arguing points, but this for me pretty much sums it up for me in a simple and concise way.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			I will try and answer two posts in one and then go and get wet in the golf.

Scargill, he is another one that when his name is mentioned my bladder shall remain full if he is on fire, along with other lesser known Union men who used the strike for there own personal means, included in that that is financial gains. Google Neil Greatrex and Mick Stevens who have robbed miners funds of hundreds of thousands of pounds. 
Did you know Scargill wanted to buy the penthouse suite he was living in free of charge which was owned by the Union. He wanted to invoke a rule brought in by non other than Thatcher. It went to court and he lost the case. The greedy **** took his own Union to court. 
Do not for one minute think that all miner supported Scargill or the breakaway Union the UDM. Ten of thousands of miners were between a rock and a hard place re Scargill and Thatcher. bullying and violence were rife from both the police ( mainly the Metropolitan)  and pickets towards innocent miners who just wanted to work.
The miners who had there heads kicked in did not support Scargill

Re small companies going bust, don't know if they did so unlike some on this forum I won't argue against that point, But and using that point alone. Thatcher shut pit after pit after pit that was making tens of millions of pounds for the tax payer every year without subsidys. That is what turned a lot of miners against Thatcher. Some believed that what she was doing in shutting down loss making pits was correct but when there profit making pits were shut that's when a lot of miners turned against her.
Went to a photo exhibition launch at Mansfield Museum Friday night, it is on for a good month or so. Chris Upton photography ( check out his site ) took a load of photos and I was involved in helping him. Mark Spencer Tory MP for Newark and Sherwood was there to help launch it. Knob. He said we must not forget that having our own energy helped us win two world wars. Yeah right oh Mark. His words stuck in the throat of every miner there.
		
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A few of my mates went down the pit and I will back up what tashyboy said about Nottinghamshire miners being between a rock and a hard place with Thatch and Scargill. It was never as black and white as some liked to portray it.

By the way tashyboy, have you read any of the Resnick detective series by John Harvey?  Resnick is a Nottingham based detective and the books that are very good, especially if you are from round these parts me duck. You may especially enjoy Darkness Darkness which is in fact the last of the series.  It's not a book just about the strike directly but uses it as a setting for the book and is a great read. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Darkness-Resnick-12-John-Harvey/dp/0434022926


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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That answer pretty much covers it for me. 

As for the comment that she was uncaring, if some in her Cabinet had had their way Liverpool and its far, far left council of the day, would have been towed out into the Atlantic. Believe it or not if you wish but she argued that Liverpool needed support, irrespective of it would never be a bastion of Conservatism...

As to the industries she cast adrift; they, with the Unions that basically ran them, were bleeding the UK to death.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 12, 2016)

From a political standpoint, she was the right person at the right time both on a national and international scale.  

From a personal standpoint, I had the opportunity to meet her twice and cannot speak highly enough of her as a person.  I saw her take time with the lowliest of staff at the House of Commons and was genuinely interested in their well-being and what they had to say.

I know others may disagree but if I ever had to vote for the greatest politician of my life-time, and I was born the day after Winston Churchill died, I would vote for Margaret Thatcher without hesitation.


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## Robster59 (Jan 12, 2016)

Thatcher came in at a time when the Unions were intent on running/ruining the country.  There were strikes galore, productivity was down and we were making shocking quality goods as a result.  Someone had to stand up to them to try and get the country back on track because it was a mess at the time. 
BUT....
I lean to the left and after reading about how much the Unions helped the working man I also appreciate there is a place for representation of the workers.  The trouble is that the Unions at the time had lost their roots and forgot that it's no use having a Union if there are no jobs. 
Thatcher came in to sort out the Miners Union (or Arthur Scargill and his cronies if you want to be more precise).  Scargill was on a power rush and would not move and neither would Thatcher.  It was, in the end, a fight they would never win.  
The problem is that she didn't stop there.  Instead of trying to work with the Unions (and I was in ASTMS which was a moderate Union) she wanted them out.   
The sale of the Public Utilities.  What a fantastic piece of work.  Getting people to buy shares in a company they already owned!  How clever is that?  And lots fell for it.  Yes they got short term profit on the shares but then it was owned by private companies and didn't the energy prices just fly up as a result?  
The Falklands Conflict saved her for her second term as she was way down in the polls before then.  And the third term was just a disaster as she believed herself to be untouchable and always right.  (Mind you, the same could be said of Blair's third term). 

So was she good for the country?  In my opinion, absolutely not.  She helped to destroy a lot of our manufacturing and are in a poorer position as a result.  Compare that with Germany where the Unions and Employees generally work together.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with *Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. *

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such 

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart 

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes. 

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country. 

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo 

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart 

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.


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## User20205 (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such 

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart 

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes. 

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country. 

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo 

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart 

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.
		
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I don't disagree (apart from the picking on a pensioner part) 

I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 80's, and so parts weren't really a poster for 'tory' Britain......but on the flip side people up there did benefit, from house ownership etc 


2 things I disliked. 1- the seemingly personal nature of her campaign against the traditional industries. she didn't have to relish it quite so much 
 2- her (their) creation  of an individualistic, ego-centric culture. There is such a thing as Society


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## MegaSteve (Jan 12, 2016)

Pure evil...


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such 

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart 

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes. 

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country. 

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo 

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart 

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.
		
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I agree with LP.  And I feel a bit dirty saying that. 

As a country we went too far in destroying the manufacturing industry (mostly based north of the Watford Gap) and relying on services/financial institutions (mostly southern/London based).  Germany seems to be the model for how to have a good mix.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 12, 2016)

Great leaders unite. No one has ever, in this country, been as divisive as she was. LP gave a pretty good summing up in his post.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such 

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart 

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes. 

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country. 

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo 

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart 

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.
		
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You're entitled to you're opinion Phil - I'm out of this thread !


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## MegaSteve (Jan 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree with LP.  And I feel a bit dirty saying that. 

As a country we went too far in destroying the manufacturing industry (mostly based north of the Watford Gap) and relying on services/financial institutions (mostly southern/London based).  Germany seems to be the model for how to have a good mix.
		
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Guessing you are not aware of just how much manufacturing occurred in London... Now, almost gone... Either because of or a consequence of Thatcher policies...

Why, we even made our own buses just a few miles away from where I sit...


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## DCB (Jan 12, 2016)

The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.


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## One Planer (Jan 12, 2016)

DCB said:



			The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.
		
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This is a very good point.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2016)

therod said:



			I don't disagree (apart from the picking on a pensioner part) 

I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 80's, and so parts weren't really a poster for 'tory' Britain......but on the flip side people up there did benefit, from house ownership etc 


2 things I disliked. 1- the seemingly personal nature of her campaign against the traditional industries. she didn't have to relish it quite so much 
 2- *her (their) creation  of an individualistic, ego-centric culture*. There is such a thing as Society
		
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...and as mentioned elsewhere I think this has led us to the culture of entitlement that we have today - and that exists across the social spectrum


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

DCB said:



			The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.
		
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I was a bit hasty in saying I'd leave the thread 

This post is exactly how I remember the era and I fully accept that she has galvanised opinion, for and against, but you really did have to live through it to see the wide picture. I quite accept that there were big winners and losers at the time but genuinely believe that, had the unions continued in the way they were going that the country was going well and truly down the tube and we all would have been in trouble


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2016)

DCB said:



			The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.
		
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I agree with pretty much all of this - though had/have no experience of the apprenticeship environment. Think Morris Marina and Rover SD1 as being the epitome of British engineering!

She achieved/implemented some really good things and also some pretty bad ones imo.  

The Falklands war came at the right time for her, but not UK imo.

I happen to think the thing that eventually triggered her downfall (some time after she should have gone) - the Poll Tax - was actually a much 'fairer' tax than the previous Rates were!


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I agree with pretty much all of this - though had/have no experience of the apprenticeship environment. Think Morris Marina and Rover SD1 as being the epitome of British engineering!

She achieved/implemented some really good things and also some pretty bad ones imo.  

The Falklands war came at the right time for her, but not UK imo.

I happen to think the thing that eventually triggered her downfall (some time after she should have gone) - the Poll Tax - was actually a much 'fairer' tax than the previous Rates were!
		
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The poll tax was fair imo as a plan but when it came in, the downside was that me as a married man, with no kids at the time, found my council tax go up instead of the expected reduction.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

One Planer said:



			This is a very good point.
		
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Sound post.
The [first] miners strike in the Heath government instigated the 3 day week. This forced many companies out of business.
The UK was in an awful state with Heath and Callaghan held to ransom by the then very powerful unions.
Thatchers first two terms put us back on track but then she started to believe her image and it all went dreadfully wrong.
I always wonder what would have happened to the UK with Hesaltine leading the Tories and David Owen leading labour.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sound post.
The [first] miners strike in the Heath government instigated the 3 day week. This forced many companies out of business.
The UK was in an awful state with Heath and Callaghan held to ransom by the then very powerful unions.
Thatchers first two terms put us back on track but then she started to believe her image and it all went dreadfully wrong.
I always wonder what would have happened to the UK with Hesaltine leading the Tories and David Owen leading labour.
		
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Red Robbo and Arthur Scargill would have run the country??


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2016)

With regards to the poll tax 

When it came out the "working out" figured that people living in a single bedroom with just a sink and communial showers ( military blocks ) had to pay Â£70 a week and at that time was just under 50% of the pay of those people. It was horrific the amounts people were being charged and asked to pay - it put so many people in debt and many CCJ's against single military people was based on the poll tax.

This is an article that shows how divisive she is 

http://josharcher.uk/blog/why-margaret-thatcher-is-hated/


Someone earlier in the thread made a great point - a great leader unites a country - Thatcher didn't unite the country.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 12, 2016)

Chrisd - Not those two. Heseltine and Owen were crossover politicians from the centre ground. Acceptable to most people and neither in bed with the unions. Heseltine was a Tory and Owen left Labour because of the union influence and the lurch to the left. 

DTF - I think that is an interesting question and I think they would have been good for the country.


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Chrisd - Not those two. Heseltine and Owen were crossover politicians from the centre ground. Acceptable to most people and neither in bed with the unions. Heseltine was a Tory and Owen left Labour because of the union influence and the lurch to the left. 

DTF - I think that is an interesting question and I think they would have been good for the country.
		
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it was Hesletine that spoke out against Geoffrey Howe in a Cabinet meeting when Howe said stop all funding to Liverpool council. Thankfully Maggie listened to Hesletine.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

She might not have united the country but many who lived through that period will say she saved it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			The poll tax was fair imo as a plan but when it came in, the downside was that me as a married man, with no kids at the time, found my council tax go up instead of the expected reduction.
		
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H'mm. I was the same situation. But ours went down (slightly)! And that was including paying the 'levy' to pay for education that I/we weren't going to take advantage of (no kids, nor plans to have them) but were 'happy' to pay as investment for future generation(s).


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Chrisd - Not those two. Heseltine and Owen were crossover politicians from the centre ground. Acceptable to most people and neither in bed with the unions. Heseltine was a Tory and Owen left Labour because of the union influence and the lurch to the left. 

DTF - I think that is an interesting question and I think they would have been good for the country.
		
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I was just joking!


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## PieMan (Jan 12, 2016)

I was a child during Thatcher's main years in power, but when it comes to her tenure as PM and her policies, the views of my late dad are good enough for me - he hated the woman and was not a Tory supporter, but he was adamant that without her the country would have been ruined. So definitely the right person and the right time for me, very much like Blair and New Labour. I suppose what they both had in common was actually holding on to power for too long. In that respect I very much support the US Presidency "2 terms only" way.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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Great shout - from what I remember thought she was great


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

PieMan said:



			I was a child during Thatcher's main years in power, but when it comes to her tenure as PM and her policies, the views of my late dad are good enough for me - he hated the woman and was not a Tory supporter, but he was adamant that without her the country would have been ruined. So definitely the right person and the right time for me, very much like Blair and New Labour. I suppose what they both had in common was actually holding on to power for too long. In that respect I very much support the US Presidency "2 terms only" way.
		
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I definitely agree with the Blair bit, the Tories were stale and washed up and Blair was " of his time". A shame that he marred the good years with the war in Iraq and handing over to Brown


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
Someone earlier in the thread made a great point - a great leader unites a country - Thatcher didn't unite the country.
		
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Seems to me that the only time UK has really been 'united' is when it's fighting a (proper) war! So focused on a single goal! Not what real government is actually all about imo!



chrisd said:



			I definitely agree with the Blair bit, the Tories were stale and washed up and Blair was " of his time". A shame that he marred the good years with the war in Iraq and handing over to Brown
		
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Scarely? Agree with this too!

My personal view used to be that the UK's overall interests are best served by having Tories in power most of the time with an occasional term (or maybe 2) of Labour to reset the balance. It seemed a reasonably good balance with LibDems being able to moderate some of the Tory extremes last term though. Thatcher certainly polarised opinion/attitude!


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that the only time UK has really been 'united' is when it's fighting a (proper) war! So focused on a single goal! Not what real government is actually all about imo!
		
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I don't recall in my lifetime a leader of a political party ever uniting the country, if anyone could do that they'd win a general election with a 100% majority


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## richart (Jan 12, 2016)

You would have thought that Churchill would have united the country after the Second World War. He lost the next election.
Lovely idea but it will never happen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I don't recall in my lifetime a leader of a political party ever uniting the country, if anyone could do that they'd win a general election with a 100% majority
		
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Nicola's doing quite a good job ATM
Nearly 100% as well.


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2016)

She made a lovely cup,of tea for me and my crew ar Range 9 Hohne so not all bad.

Overstayed her time but she was a bit like the Daily Mail, nobody admitted to voting for her yet she kept being voted in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2016)

richart said:



			You would have thought that Churchill would have united the country after the Second World War. He lost the next election.
Lovely idea but it will never happen.
		
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The country united behind Churchill in a cause and IMO he is the last great leader this country has seen 

Don't think anyone will ever be classed as a great leader unless there is another world war That effects our country


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola's doing quite a good job ATM
Nearly 100% as well.
		
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At the last general election "Nicola" had a percentage of 50% of the voters  - how is that nearly "100%" ?


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola's doing quite a good job ATM
Nearly 100% as well.
		
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..... but not a GREAT one :whoo:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2016)

After posting early and been at work all day, I've took the time to read and catch, absolutely get it, that you won't change peoples minds on her, the only question/observation I have on all the posts, What is her legacy? Because I don't see many comments about the good she did or things we should be grateful for, the only answer I can see from comments is, She was the right person at the right time, to which I'd answer she had 3 terms and all we remember her for is The Miners Strike, how bad did she mess up for her own party to get rid of her. If she was so goid for the Country, how did Labour get back in?


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## Stuart_C (Jan 12, 2016)

Her involvement in one of the biggest cover ups we've seen, she cannot be classed as a great.

Blood on her hands.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			At the last general election "Nicola" had a percentage of 50% of the voters  - how is that nearly "100%" ?
		
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 MP's in situ.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			MSP's in situ.
		
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Which ever way you want to twist it towards SNP

They didn't and wont ever have the country 100% united behind them 

50% of the country didn't vote for them so don't get anywhere near a 100% majority

But then this thread isn't about SNP or the leader of said party.


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## Jensen (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With regards to the poll tax 

When it came out the "working out" figured that people living in a single bedroom with just a sink and communial showers ( military blocks ) had to pay Â£70 a week and at that time was just under 50% of the pay of those people. It was horrific the amounts people were being charged and asked to pay - it put so many people in debt and many CCJ's against single military people was based on the poll tax.
		
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Eh Â£70 per week, are you sure ? I think you've made a mistake there.
I had just moved up to the North East from London in 1989, and whilst living with my girlfriends family I was subjected to Poll Tax. Whilst I can't remember the exact amount it was no where near this figure or as high as a percentage of 50%

In principle I agreed with the Poll Tax, although I didn't own or rent a property, I still benefited from leisure facilities, libraries, rubbish collection etc so why shouldn't I pay for it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader.  I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right. 

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.
		
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Been back through the thread and for my tuppence worth this is spot on (not necessarily the first paragraph)


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## Jensen (Jan 12, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Her involvement in one of the biggest cover ups we've seen, she cannot be classed as a great.

Blood on her hands.
		
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Beg to differ, personally I think Blair was far, far worse and we're still suffering today.....


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 12, 2016)

Who started this whole kerfuffle anyway? 

Oughtn't we to be debating the relative merits of pink castle tees v traditional wooden ones?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2016)

Flippin Eck, has anyone had any dinner yet. Been away a couple of hours and the golf monthly forum has nearly gone into meltdown.
Anyway, the bit that I could not get my head around with thatcher is she helped saved the large industries, (Not my words by any stretch of the imagination), but others on here. Defeated the unions, made large industry profitable, British rail, British Coal, British Telecom, Energy companies etc etc etc etc. yet instead of said companies making money every year, year after year for me and you, Joe public. Helping to fund education and the health service etc. She then sold them off for a pittance of what they were actually worth and was/is still praised for it. Eh, how's that work out.
If I sold my Ping G30 driver for a quid I am a grade one ****, but she is a hero. How's that work out. 
Don't get me wrong she sold the family silver and Gordon Brown sold the family Gold. 
But don't be fooled into thinking I cannot stand her because of what she did to the miners. Some of her policies affected everyone at the time and still continue to affect people a generation later.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Who started this whole kerfuffle anyway? 

Oughtn't we to be debating the relative merits of pink castle tees v traditional wooden ones? 

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There you go again stirring it, everyone knows bristle tees are the future. Less friction &#128513;&#128077;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Been back through the thread and for my tuppence worth this is spot on (not necessarily the first paragraph)
		
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So you trying harder lasted 12 days!!! sad


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## ger147 (Jan 12, 2016)

My poll tax memories are being a student with no income and still getting a poll tax bill. My Dad had to pay it for me and so he ended up having to pay 2 people's bills, which was sorta the opposite of the whole poll tax concept.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which ever way you want to twist it towards SNP

They didn't and wont ever have the country 100% united behind them 

50% of the country didn't vote for them so don't get anywhere near a 100% majority

But then this thread isn't about SNP or the leader of said party.
		
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Calm down........... I was only joshing:lol:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So you trying harder lasted 12 days!!! sad
		
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WHAT? I agreed with what the poster wrote but not the comments about LP which I didn't think was fair (even if in jest) ? Get over yourself.


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## Ross61 (Jan 12, 2016)

Thatcher, Thatcher the school milk snatcher!


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Flippin Eck, has anyone had any dinner yet. Been away a couple of hours and the golf monthly forum has nearly gone into meltdown.
Anyway, the bit that I could not get my head around with thatcher is she helped saved the large industries, (Not my words by any stretch of the imagination), but others on here. Defeated the unions, made large industry profitable, British rail, British Coal, British Telecom, Energy companies etc etc etc etc. yet instead of said companies making money every year, year after year for me and you, Joe public. Helping to fund education and the health service etc. She then sold them off for a pittance of what they were actually worth and was/is still praised for it. Eh, how's that work out.
If I sold my Ping G30 driver for a quid I am a grade one ****, but she is a hero. How's that work out. 
Don't get me wrong she sold the family silver and Gordon Brown sold the family Gold. 
But don't be fooled into thinking I cannot stand her because of what she did to the miners. Some of her policies affected everyone at the time and still continue to affect people a generation later.
		
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You might be a bit wrong there Tashy. Even when privatised they still had to pay corporation tax, and there was the millions from the sell off. And if you cast your mind back, a number of those industries were costing the tax payer money.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

Some wide ranging and interesting views. Thatcher always divided opinion, even amongst her own party. I liked her but then again I had a "Tory" upbringing. Mind you she wasn't happy when I screwed her monthly salary (I use to be her pay clerk) and I got a hand written letter complaining (good old days before email).


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## Ross61 (Jan 12, 2016)

BT (post office telephones) was propping up the post office for years before BT was formed. It was then the first to get sold off for a pittance of what it was worth. All the city money men made a fortune out of it. At Â£1.30 a share to buy it more than doubled value on the first day. Only wish I had the money to invest.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

Ross61 said:



			BT (post office telephones) was propping up the post office for years before BT was formed. It was then the first to get sold off for a pittance of what it was worth. All the city money men made a fortune out of it. At Â£1.30 a share to buy it more than doubled value on the first day. Only wish I had the money to invest.
		
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Ah the good old Busby ads. Think my old man stuck a lot of the family savings in and made a quick buck. Invested all back into the business


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ah the good old Busby ads. Think my old man stuck a lot of the family savings in and made a quick buck. Invested all back into the business
		
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Homer that is one of the reasons my ma and pa loved Thatcher. They bought shares in every privatised company and made some good money. Not to sure about the company's paying corporation tax, every week there are companies that Are named and shamed as not paying said tax.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Homer that is one of the reasons my ma and pa loved Thatcher. They bought shares in every privatised company and made some good money. Not to sure about the company's paying corporation tax, every week there are companies that Are named and shamed as not paying said tax.
		
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Think had the family business not been struggling they'd have done the same and got involved in more flotations. The BT one came at the right time for some quick (and virtually guaranteed) profit.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I don't recall in my lifetime a leader of a political party ever uniting the country, if anyone could do that they'd win a general election with a 100% majority
		
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Maybe not uniting all, but I think all will agree that Thatcher is the most divisive PM we have had, with no-one running her close.

If many of the southerners had lived in most northern towns in the 80's, and seen what devastation she caused,they would have a different view. 

I agree the unions needed sorting out, but to take away their power base by losing the country millions of manufacturing jobs that had been built up since the industrial revolution, takes a special "talent".


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Maybe not uniting all, but I think all will agree that Thatcher is the most divisive PM we have had, with no-one running her close.

If many of the southerners had lived in most northern towns in the 80's, and seen what devastation she caused,they would have a different view. 

I agree the unions needed sorting out, but to take away their power base by losing the country millions of manufacturing jobs that had been built up since the industrial revolution, takes a special "talent".
		
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As was pointed out in an earlier post, many of the companies were going bust before she came to power. The unions were wrecking the economy, secondary picketing was legal and the U.K. had become a laughing stock. I agree that we in the south didn't bear the brunt of the hardships but the country would have gone down the tubes with the way it was going, strikes,walk outs etc etc. manufacturing was being lost long before her election. 

She did vindictively close the mines, that happened even here in East Kent where I live, that was wrong. She did sell council houses but the country couldn't afford the maintenance costs of the housing stock and the sale raised money to build more. Similar was the case with the privatised industries, they had been starved of investment over successive governments and privatisation gave the new owners the responsibility to do what the governments had not - it also bought in to the coffers a huge cash cow. 

its easy for those not there to criticise things she did in isolation but for me, overall, she did the right thing at the time


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2016)

Hard for me to be constructive having been brought up in London and the conservative suburbs and not being directly affected by her policies and the implementation of the changes. It was something that for me at least going through my teenage years that it was something going on a long way away from my own world. Of course, what those being directly affected went through is impossible (and crass of me to even begin to judge). I think she some things right and I seemed to benefit directly (probably a fluke of location and upbringing) so of course my view will be clouded. I've seen the documentaries on the miners strikes, newspapers, docks, etc and clearly Thatcherism doesn't come out of it well


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			As was pointed out in an earlier post, many of the companies were going bust before she came to power. The unions were wrecking the economy, secondary picketing was legal and the U.K. had become a laughing stock. I agree that we in the south didn't bear the brunt of the hardships but the country would have gone down the tubes with the way it was going, strikes,walk outs etc etc. manufacturing was being lost long before her election. 

She did vindictively close the mines, that happened even here in East Kent where I live, that was wrong. She did sell council houses but the country couldn't afford the maintenance costs of the housing stock and the sale raised money to build more. Similar was the case with the privatised industries, they had been starved of investment over successive governments and privatisation gave the new owners the responsibility to do what the governments had not - it also bought in to the coffers a huge cash cow. 

its easy for those not there to criticise things she did in isolation but for me, overall, she did the right thing at the time
		
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I think the council house sell off was a good thing (overall), so I am not totally blinded to Thatcher's few good things.

It made a lot of people more sociably mobile and finally made people be in a position to leave something for the next generation. However, it also made people more selfish, but overall I think a good thing.

It still doesnt excuse the excesses in most other things she did though, which laid waste to large parts of the northern and Scottish cities, and there was no redistribution of wealth. More could and should have been done, and even now with the "northern powerhouse", it is still something that should have been done 30 odd years ago.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 12, 2016)

How do you identify a failing business?

When the incompetent management start blaming their woes/shortcomings on the unions and the lazy British worker...


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 12, 2016)

When I was a lad there was The Gas Board and The Electricity Board.

Now there are a lot of foreign-owned 'energy companies' bamboozling everyone with a plethora of purchasing plans designed to stuff the consumer as hard as is possible.

Would it be too much to ask that we have one single unit of Gas costing X and one unit of Electricity costing Y. Then we wouldn't need the mathematical skills of an astrophysicist to enable us to calculate what exactly we're paying for our energy and what kind of value for money it represents. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not Thatcher's visionary Tories who saw fit to flog both of these National utilities off to their investor mates, and whose descendants now have the audacity to tut and sigh disingenuously about what a terrible minefield today's deregulated money-grasping energy market is for the public.


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## chrisd (Jan 13, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			When I was a lad there was The Gas Board and The Electricity Board.

Now there are a lot of foreign-owned 'energy companies' bamboozling everyone with a plethora of purchasing plans designed to stuff the consumer as hard as is possible.

Would it be too much to ask that we have one single unit of Gas costing X and one unit of Electricity costing Y. Then we wouldn't need the mathematical skills of an astrophysicist to enable us to calculate what exactly we're paying for our energy and what kind of value for money it represents. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not Thatcher's visionary Tories who saw fit to flog both of these National utilities off to their investor mates, and whose descendants now have the audacity to tut and sigh disingenuously about what a terrible minefield today's deregulated money-grasping energy market is for the public.
		
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I don't disagree Johnny, there were certainly sone sell offs that were wrong in my eyes. I think the main utilities should be state controlled


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			How do you identify a failing business?

When the incompetent management start blaming their woes/shortcomings on the unions and the lazy British worker...
		
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Mega steve, Homer, Johnny Dee, excellent posts and some kind of emphasise what I was trying to say that a generation later, people are still and will continue to feel the negative impact of her legacy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2016)

First bill going through the new English Parliament, another historical moment.
Pity they forgot to include Wales in the legal process and got the name of the SNP wrong [again]


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## Ross61 (Jan 13, 2016)

chrisd said:



			She did sell council houses but the country couldn't afford the maintenance costs of the housing stock and the sale raised money to build more.
		
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Unfortunately the money raised wasn't used to build more. That is the problem. 

I personally also think the idea of getting council tenants to become house owners/mortgage payers also suited Maggie in that anyone with a mortgage was less likely to go out on strike. 

The poll tax fiasco also helped the tories as many people (mainly left thinking) removed themselves from the electoral roll to avoid the tax.

I just love a conspiracy theory


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2016)

Ross61 said:



			Unfortunately the money raised wasn't used to build more. That is the problem. 

I personally also think the idea of getting council tenants to become house owners/mortgage payers also suited Maggie in that anyone with a mortgage was less likely to go out on strike. 

The poll tax fiasco also helped the tories as many people (mainly left thinking) removed themselves from the electoral roll to avoid the tax.

I just love a conspiracy theory  

Click to expand...

What has not been said about the great council house sell off was this.
Said house worth Â£50,000 was sold for Â£25,000 if you qualified to buy it.
But Â£25,00 did not go to the local council for said house that they owned. Â£12,500 went to local council and Â£12,500 went to maggies government. in effect councils were told they had to sell houses so they could receive 25% of its real value.

Yet people tell me that was a good deal. Next time you put your house up for sale, let me know and I will expect a thick ear when I offer you 25% of its value.

That aside would you blame a house holder for buying said house, he would be stupid not to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			What has not been said about the great council house sell off was this.
Said house worth Â£50,000 was sold for Â£25,000 if you qualified to buy it.
But Â£25,00 did not go to the local council for said house that they owned. Â£12,500 went to local council and Â£12,500 went to maggies government. in effect councils were told they had to sell houses so they could receive 25% of its real value.

Yet people tell me that was a good deal. Next time you put your house up for sale, let me know and I will expect a thick ear when I offer you 25% of its value.

That aside would you blame a house holder for buying said house, he would be stupid not to.
		
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You forgot about the savings made from ditching the heavily unionised and overstaffed cooncil staff employed to 'maintain' the old council houses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You forgot about the savings made from ditching the heavily unionised and overstaffed cooncil staff employed to 'maintain' the old council houses.
		
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People who were then left jobless along with the other 4 million who were unemployed at that time. Some could never find a job again.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People who were then left jobless along with the other 4 million who were unemployed at that time. Some could never find a job again.
		
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Whose fault was it that they couldn't find another job


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Whose fault was it that they couldn't find another job
		
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Well considering a lot of them worked in an industry that was sold off or closed then a good deal of those would point the finger at the body of people who took the industry away.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well considering a lot of them worked in an industry that was sold off or closed then a good deal of those would point the finger at the body of people who took the industry away.
		
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That answers why they lost their job not why they couldn't get another one


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			That answers why they lost their job not why they couldn't get another one
		
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Because there wasn't jobs for everyone to go around especially when some were specialised in trades that were no longer needed. Two of my uncles spent a decade trying to get a job - every day out in the job centre going around places begging for work - nothing


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there wasn't jobs for everyone to go around especially when some were specialised in trades that were no longer needed. Two of my uncles spent a decade trying to get a job - every day out in the job centre going around places begging for work - nothing
		
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Appreciate you maybe extremely emotional about this and totally get the reason why but I don't see why it is whoever shut down an industry responsibility for finding people in that industry another job.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 13, 2016)

Was it that there weren't any jobs out there or that as is happening now people refusing to take jobs that they considered beneath them? 

If you want to work then it is fairly easy to find a job. When I was made redundant I took a job in a call centre because I had to earn money to pay the bills. I could just have easily ended up working in a supermarket or anywhere else, but equally I could have decided that as I have a degree and other work related qualifications I could have sat on my backside and complained that there was no work out there for me. 

There are jobs out there for people that want to work but it is far easy for them to whine and complain that they have lost their job and it's all the goverment's fault. It might not be your dream job or related to what you were doing before but it pays the bills and keeps food on the table and in my book that's the important thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there wasn't jobs for everyone to go around especially when some were specialised in trades that were no longer needed. Two of my uncles spent a decade trying to get a job - every day out in the job centre going around places begging for work - nothing
		
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In that whole ten year period did they never even consider being self employed?

I know loads folk who were made unemployed during that time.
Many successfully started small businesses, remember 'loadsamoney'.
One of my friends went from being unemployed by BT to employing six staff within two years.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was it that there weren't any jobs out there or that as is happening now people refusing to take jobs that they considered beneath them? 

If you want to work then it is fairly easy to find a job. When I was made redundant I took a job in a call centre because I had to earn money to pay the bills. I could just have easily ended up working in a supermarket or anywhere else, but equally I could have decided that as I have a degree and other work related qualifications I could have sat on my backside and complained that there was no work out there for me. 

There are jobs out there for people that want to work but it is far easy for them to whine and complain that they have lost their job and it's all the goverment's fault. It might not be your dream job or related to what you were doing before but it pays the bills and keeps food on the table and in my book that's the important thing.
		
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Great post


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Appreciate you maybe extremely emotional about this and totally get the reason why but I don't see why it is whoever shut down an industry responsibility for finding people in that industry another job.
		
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The country already had unemployment problems - millions were already out of work and struggling to find work. Removing a lot of the industry just removed more jobs and created a bigger number of unemployment. There wasn't the work to go around and the government at the time didn't help the situation ( and th government before them plus the unions ) - in fact did the opposite by making the situation worse. 

Investment into the industry , make a good quality product and people will buy it which then creates further jobs as the demand increases. Invest into the national products we had at the time and encourage people into the workforce - the more money being earned the more is being spent and the circle continues to improve ( very simplistic I know ) but putting more and more onto the dole queue added nothing and I know a lot still believe it was out of spite


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was it that there weren't any jobs out there or that as is happening now people refusing to take jobs that they considered beneath them? 

If you want to work then it is fairly easy to find a job. When I was made redundant I took a job in a call centre because I had to earn money to pay the bills. I could just have easily ended up working in a supermarket or anywhere else, but equally I could have decided that as I have a degree and other work related qualifications I could have sat on my backside and complained that there was no work out there for me. 

There are jobs out there for people that want to work but it is far easy for them to whine and complain that they have lost their job and it's all the goverment's fault. It might not be your dream job or related to what you were doing before but it pays the bills and keeps food on the table and in my book that's the important thing.
		
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They would have done any job possible as long is got them off the dole queue and gave them some pride in providing for their family instead of sponging of the state. 

There was no shirking from them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In that whole ten year period did they never even consider being self employed?

I know loads folk who were made unemployed during that time.
Many successfully started small businesses, remember 'loadsamoney'.
One of my friends went from being unemployed by BT to employing six staff within two years.
		
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For them to start a small business and become self employed would mean they would have the funds to have a start up business plus having the skills to start a business - not everyone can start up a business.


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## Fish (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there wasn't jobs for everyone to go around especially when some were specialised in trades that were no longer needed. Two of my uncles spent a decade trying to get a job - every day out in the job centre going around places begging for work - nothing
		
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I don't agree or accept this, I'm of the attitude that if you _really_ want to work, you'll find it, even when I was building up my shop/s before they opened I was working nights just loading lorry's in Toy R Us to keep the pennies, however small they were, coming in. Some people think they're worth more than they are and choose not to work for what could seem to them a very low wage to what they were used to or could get close to in benefits.

It always amazes me that unemployment is so high and yet there are pages upon pages in my local paper on a Friday looking for people, whether it be bar work, cleaners, semi and even skilled work, which OK will be well sort after, the point I'm making is, if you sat in front of me for an interview and had been doing almost anything at any price I'd rather give that person a chance than someone who chose not to do anything at all, especially for a decade just waiting for that ideal job to come about whether they were better suited or not! 

To not work for a decade, I'm sorry but that's down to the individual IMO, you could go on courses and re-train for something else within that period, you could look at being self employed, whether it be a window cleaner or anything, it's all about self drive and personal motivation IMO, if you're fit and able a decade unemployed is unacceptable IMO, even in the 80's there was the Enterprise Allowance scheme to give people a help into self employment, sometimes you have to start back at the bottom again, that's just the way it is, but some people feel it's beneath them.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The country already had unemployment problems - millions were already out of work and struggling to find work. Removing a lot of the industry just removed more jobs and created a bigger number of unemployment. There wasn't the work to go around and the government at the time didn't help the situation ( and th government before them plus the unions ) - in fact did the opposite by making the situation worse. 

Investment into the industry , make a good quality product and people will buy it which then creates further jobs as the demand increases. Invest into the national products we had at the time and encourage people into the workforce - the more money being earned the more is being spent and the circle continues to improve ( very simplistic I know ) but putting more and more onto the dole queue added nothing and I know a lot still believe it was out of spite
		
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The coffers were bare there was no cash to invest it was a case of lets cash in what we can to make ends meet


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For them to start a small business and become self employed would mean they would have the funds to have a start up business plus having the skills to start a business - not everyone can start up a business.
		
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Not all business' need funds to get going.  Appreciate not everyone has the skills to start a business


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## Fish (Jan 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was it that there weren't any jobs out there or that as is happening now people refusing to take jobs that they considered beneath them? 

If you want to work then it is fairly easy to find a job. When I was made redundant I took a job in a call centre because I had to earn money to pay the bills. I could just have easily ended up working in a supermarket or anywhere else, but equally I could have decided that as I have a degree and other work related qualifications I could have sat on my backside and complained that there was no work out there for me. 

There are jobs out there for people that want to work but it is far easy for them to whine and complain that they have lost their job and it's all the goverment's fault. It might not be your dream job or related to what you were doing before but it pays the bills and keeps food on the table and in my book that's the important thing.
		
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I agree, you wrote this as I was writing along the same lines.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Not all business' need funds to get going.  Appreciate not everyone has the skills to start a business
		
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They tried everything - tried to start gardening , cleaning cars , houses , one joined the army at 29 but the others couldn't , one even became a paperboy once a week for a free mag , they weren't businessmen - they spent their whole working life screwing bolts. Both ended up moving to N Ireland to get a job.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They tried everything - tried to start gardening , cleaning cars , houses , one joined the army at 29 but the others couldn't , one even became a paperboy once a week for a free mag , they weren't businessmen - they spent their whole working life screwing bolts. Both ended up moving to N Ireland to get a job.
		
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Sounds as if they got there in the end


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## Fish (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Not all business' need funds to get going.  Appreciate not everyone has the skills to start a business
		
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There were funds available in the 80's for a few schemes, I know a mate who was a redundant toolmaker who then laboured for a guy on the roofs for 12 months and picked it up all very quickly, put a plan together with the help of the job centre and got Â£1k off the government Enterprise Allowance Scheme to start his own business, it paid for a van, some business cards and off he went, he's now one the biggest roofers in this area, sometimes it's not about skills in the full sense of the word, it's above self drive and ambition and the willingness to change your life and its direction, not blame everyone else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Sounds as if they got there in the end
		
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They did but at a personal cost and theirs wasn't the only story - they had mates losing their homes , families and some even lost their lives. 

Just hope that people don't ever have to go through it all again and really do hope that the country continue to invest in its people and find a way to build back up our industry

We can't rely on being a financial hub - it's already gone belly up once before


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## chrisd (Jan 13, 2016)

The company I worked for went bust and I mortgaged my house to start my own business. I didn't receive any help !

And many went the same way in subsequent recessions, the recent one has been pretty severe too


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## Hobbit (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The country already had unemployment problems - millions were already out of work and struggling to find work. Removing a lot of the industry just removed more jobs and created a bigger number of unemployment. There wasn't the work to go around and the government at the time didn't help the situation ( and th government before them plus the unions ) - in fact did the opposite by making the situation worse. 

Investment into the industry , make a good quality product and people will buy it which then creates further jobs as the demand increases. Invest into the national products we had at the time and encourage people into the workforce - the more money being earned the more is being spent and the circle continues to improve ( very simplistic I know ) but putting more and more onto the dole queue added nothing and I know a lot still believe it was out of spite
		
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the ships being produced at docks around the country were too expensive and missed their delivery times by many months. Steel being produced was too expensive, British Leyland in the Midlands and Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port were too expensive, all for the same reason. Unions taking workers on strike at the drop of a hat. 

I remember my grandfather crying at the dinner table because the docks were out again because a welder had done a job that a cleaner should have done.

the unions broke big industry in this country, made it way too expensive and then wanted even more money making it more expensive again.

its gone too far the other way now but the 70's and early 80's were horrendous if you worked in a union dominated industry. I know, I suffered it as did many of my relatives down the docks and at British Steel.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			the ships being produced at docks around the country were too expensive and missed their delivery times by many months. Steel being produced was too expensive, British Leyland in the Midlands and Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port were too expensive, all for the same reason. Unions taking workers on strike at the drop of a hat. 

I remember my grandfather crying at the dinner table because the docks were out again because a welder had done a job that a cleaner should have done.

the unions broke big industry in this country, made it way too expensive and then wanted even more money making it more expensive again.

its gone too far the other way now but the 70's and early 80's were horrendous if you worked in a union dominated industry. I know, I suffered it as did many of my relatives down the docks and at British Steel.
		
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Unions ( or their leaders at the very least ) take a good deal of the blame - a lot of the products produced was expensive compared to the cheaper products that could be imported in - at first it was more expensive because it was built with quality but then the product quality started to slip to try and compete.

Changes did need to be made - no doubt about that - blame on all sides and at times a lot was done out of spite when other changes could ( obviously a wild statement without a crystal ball ) have got the industry on the up in a lot of areas. 

It has gone the other way and it's now so hard to find products that we produce mass market around the world that we are proud off - thankfully we still build in partnerships a lot of military equipment.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They did but at a personal cost and theirs wasn't the only story - they had mates losing their homes , families and some even lost their lives. 

Just hope that people don't ever have to go through it all again and really do hope that the country continue to invest in its people and find a way to build back up our industry

We can't rely on being a financial hub - it's already gone belly up once before
		
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All industries can go belly up key is to have a wide portfolio


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			All industries can go belly up key is to have a wide portfolio
		
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I think a lot nowadays will try and become as multi skilled as possible 

Back in the 70's and 80's it seemed not many were - with a lot of the guys in the main industries being restricted to single skills that didn't appear to be transferable - seen it in the military were people think they are safer by being "specialists" where as I believe I should be able to have more than one string to my bow.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 13, 2016)

Fish said:



			I don't agree or accept this, I'm of the attitude that if you _really_ want to work, you'll find it, even when I was building up my shop/s before they opened I was working nights just loading lorry's in Toy R Us to keep the pennies, however small they were, coming in. Some people think they're worth more than they are and choose not to work for what could seem to them a very low wage to what they were used to or could get close to in benefits.

It always amazes me that unemployment is so high and yet there are pages upon pages in my local paper on a Friday looking for people, whether it be bar work, cleaners, semi and even skilled work, which OK will be well sort after, the point I'm making is, if you sat in front of me for an interview and had been doing almost anything at any price I'd rather give that person a chance than someone who chose not to do anything at all, especially for a decade just waiting for that ideal job to come about whether they were better suited or not! 

To not work for a decade, I'm sorry but that's down to the individual IMO, you could go on courses and re-train for something else within that period, you could look at being self employed, whether it be a window cleaner or anything, it's all about self drive and personal motivation IMO, if you're fit and able a decade unemployed is unacceptable IMO, even in the 80's there was the Enterprise Allowance scheme to give people a help into self employment, sometimes you have to start back at the bottom again, that's just the way it is, but some people feel it's beneath them.
		
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To be fair, isn't it this "we'll do anything" attitude that the Eastern Europeans have fostered and taken on in the last few years. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion and I agree with you and at times, perhaps pride and a certain "Englishness" for want of a far more eloquent phrase got inthe way, especially at that time


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## Fish (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think a lot nowadays will try and become as multi skilled as possible 

Back in the 70's and 80's it seemed not many were - with a lot of the guys in the main industries being restricted to single skills that didn't appear to be transferable - seen it in the military were people think they are safer by being "specialists" where as I believe I should be able to have more than one string to my bow.
		
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But people are transferable so you move to the work, my family moved out of London to the Midlands, he went from the car industry to Triumph motorcycles and then back to the car industry here in Coventry, you adapt and learn new skills, you don't sit on your backside using the blame game, you make things happen yourself, I left school at 15 in 1975 with no qualifications and left the forces with nothing that could be really used also on the outside, but I made things happen for myself, eventually, self drive is what's needed, if you can't be arsed to work, you won't work, if go looking for work defeated, you'll be defeated. I worked in a large builders merchant before I went into the forces, we were always advertising and looking for drivers & yardmen, yet the factories were on their backside all over Coventry at the time, full of strikes and short time, but there were still other jobs out there if you wanted them, some people are frightened of change and simply accept the situation they find themselves in rather than doing something about it, IMO.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 13, 2016)

World is full of people who go get and other's who expect to be given


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## chrisd (Jan 13, 2016)

Fish said:



			But people are transferable so you move to the work, my family moved out of London to the Midlands, he went from the car industry to Triumph motorcycles and then back to the car industry here in Coventry, you adapt and learn new skills, you don't sit on your backside using the blame game, you make things happen yourself, I left school at 15 in 1975 with no qualifications and left the forces with nothing that could be really used also on the outside, but I made things happen for myself, eventually, self drive is what's needed, if you can't be arsed to work, you won't work, if go looking for work defeated, you'll be defeated. I worked in a large builders merchant before I went into the forces, we were always advertising and looking for drivers & yardmen, yet the factories were on their backside all over Coventry at the time, full of strikes and short time, but there were still other jobs out there if you wanted them, some people are frightened of change and simply accept the situation they find themselves in rather than doing something about it, IMO.
		
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Spot on !

The country doesn't owe anyone a living, we need to look after those who can't fend for themselves but there were many, back then who were so well off on benefits that they never wanted to go and find work.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 13, 2016)

Interesting to read the very many sad stories about the 80s and they all resonate with me and have my sympathy. The heartlessness was simply disgusting.

However we've gone off on an anecdotal route and I'd like to try and bring this back specifically to Thatcher herself.

Towards the end of her 'reign' she seemed to have lost all grip on reality and was totally deluded and power-drunk. I still wince when she famously used the Royal "we" in respect of the birth of one of her grandchildren.

My view was that she'd completely lost the plot and believed herself to be invincible. I was never so happy when here erstwhile loyal colleagues finally had had enough and metaphorically knifed her in the back. My opinion was that collectively the worms had turned and not before time.

She had lost all touch with reality and really did need to be removed from her delusional dictatorship.

She was an odious person who did nothing but create an atmosphere of misery and hate  in all but those who benefitted from her disgraceful pandering to the all holy markets, the aspirant rich and the already obscenely well-off.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was it that there weren't any jobs out there or that as is happening now people refusing to take jobs that they considered beneath them? 

If you want to work then it is fairly easy to find a job. When I was made redundant I took a job in a call centre because I had to earn money to pay the bills. I could just have easily ended up working in a supermarket or anywhere else, but equally I could have decided that as I have a degree and other work related qualifications I could have sat on my backside and complained that there was no work out there for me. 

There are jobs out there for people that want to work but it is far easy for them to whine and complain that they have lost their job and it's all the goverment's fault. It might not be your dream job or related to what you were doing before but it pays the bills and keeps food on the table and in my book that's the important thing.
		
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When there are 4 million unemployed, there arent enough jobs.

Not exactly rocket science is it, and why do you think Newcastle's, Glasgow's, Liverpool's populations were declining - because tens 0f thousands were going south to get some of them.

Some of you just dont have a clue do you, or are just massive apologists.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 13, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			When there are 4 million unemployed, there arent enough jobs.

Not exactly rocket science is it, and why do you think Newcastle's, Glasgow's, Liverpool's populations were declining - because tens 0f thousands were going south to get some of them.

Some of you just dont have a clue do you, or are just massive apologists.
		
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We currently have approximately 1.8 million people in this country classed as unemployed (sourced from BBC news for Q3 2015, most recent figures I could find). Each week hundreds of thousands of jobs are advertised and remain unfilled -  approx 1/2 million current job vacancies in the UK. I'm not suggesting that for every one of those 1.8 million there is a job available as some will be unsuitable or they will be under qualified but there is work out there if you can be bothered to look.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting that I am an apologist for but it seems from your post that you don't have a clue and are a massive apologist for people that are too lazy to get their backsides off their sofa and go out and find work. Oh boo hoo did some people from Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow have to move to find work? Well guess what, sometimes in life you have to make a sacrifice to achieve something. I've moved from Norfolk to Scotland, back to Norfolk, then to Suffolk, on to London and then back to Suffolk because that's where the work was.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			We currently have approximately 1.8 million people in this country classed as unemployed (sourced from BBC news for Q3 2015, most recent figures I could find). Each week hundreds of thousands of jobs are advertised and remain unfilled -  approx 1/2 million current job vacancies in the UK. I'm not suggesting that for every one of those 1.8 million there is a job available as some will be unsuitable or they will be under qualified but there is work out there if you can be bothered to look.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting that I am an apologist for but it seems from your post that you don't have a clue and are a massive apologist for people that are too lazy to get their backsides off their sofa and go out and find work. Oh boo hoo did some people from Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow have to move to find work? Well guess what, sometimes in life you have to make a sacrifice to achieve something. I've moved from Norfolk to Scotland, back to Norfolk, then to Suffolk, on to London and then back to Suffolk because that's where the work was.
		
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When you go for a job in an ice cream factory when your 16, and 1,000 people are queued up around the block for one position, there arent enough jobs.

It was ok in the south, and not in the north and midlands who suffered most, so get out of your "I'm alright jack" bubble and open your eyes to what was done at the time.

Germany had been the losers in WW2, and could afford to keep unemployment at bay far better than us in the 80's WITH GOVERNMENT HELP, something that we didnt do. The south did very well out of it, and that is why you;ll see most southerners in favour of her, and most northerners not.

It only takes 7 million to vote someone in, and there was enough from down there to keep her in.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2016)

Good to see you back phil and I am with you on this. It s easy to say if you want work then you will find it, but.

Rufford pit shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 1 1/2 miles away
Blidworth pit shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 2 miles from Rufford
Clipstone shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 1 mile from Clipstone
Mansfield Colliery close 1,200 men lose there jobs, 1 mile from Mansfield 
Sherwood Colliery close 1,500 men lose there jobs, 3 miles from Sherwood
sutton colliery closes, as does anneslly, Bentink, Gedling, Cotgrave, ollerton, bilsthorpe, Harworth etc etc etc.
stick on top of that all the specialist companies that supplied the mining industry and you are talking about a serious amount of people made unemployed. Plus me mum who worked in the canteen &#128513;
And that is just the Notts pits
Now don't get me wrong Toys r us don't employ 30,000 men on nights.

 Cannot talk about Yorksire or the rest of the mining communities from Kent to Scotland,but villages as we called them then (now communities) were savaged with no promise of investment materialising in some.

Re setting up your own business, yes I will agree with that as some of my good friends inc my brother ( who escaped a roof fall in which three of his best pals were killed at Bilsthorpe) did this and did very well, but some are cut out for Business and most were not.

Not to sure that if you want work you will find it, applies to all. A company laying off half a dozen? Them six have more chance of finding work than those that have just been finished at say Redcar. Simply because of numbers and also because there are not the vacancies in and around Redcar.

oh ah ave just remembered , Mark spencer MP has asked the Tory government for more money for training, coz the guys at Redcar have been offered more than the miners. Eh six months after the pit officially shut he wants more money. Does he think people have sat on there backsides for six months since being made redundant. these are the people in power who think there are helping us. Lord above.

Furthermore, I believe another legacy of Thathcher is the creation of " benefit culture". Yes there has always been unemployment, but you survived on unemployment benefit in pre Thatchers era. Since then some people have no intention of working because Thatchers Generation have taught the next generation ( there kids ) you can more than get by on benefits. 

That last sentance does not apply to everyone on benefits, as they do have a part in our society, but a generation of people take benefits as granted.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 14, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Good to see you back phil and I am with you on this. It s easy to say if you want work then you will find it, but.

Rufford pit shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 1 1/2 miles away
Blidworth pit shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 2 miles from Rufford
Clipstone shuts 1,500 men lose there jobs, 1 mile from Clipstone
Mansfield Colliery close 1,200 men lose there jobs, 1 mile from Mansfield 
Sherwood Colliery close 1,500 men lose there jobs, 3 miles from Sherwood
sutton colliery closes, as does anneslly, Bentink, Gedling, Cotgrave, ollerton, bilsthorpe, Harworth etc etc etc.
stick on top of that all the specialist companies that supplied the mining industry and you are talking about a serious amount of people made unemployed. Plus me mum who worked in the canteen &#62977;
And that is just the Notts pits
Now don't get me wrong Toys r us don't employ 30,000 men on nights.

 Cannot talk about Yorksire or the rest of the mining communities from Kent to Scotland,but villages as we called them then (now communities) were savaged with no promise of investment materialising in some.

Re setting up your own business, yes I will agree with that as some of my good friends inc my brother ( who escaped a roof fall in which three of his best pals were killed at Bilsthorpe) did this and did very well, but some are cut out for Business and most were not.

Not to sure that if you want work you will find it, applies to all. A company laying off half a dozen? Them six have more chance of finding work than those that have just been finished at say Redcar. Simply because of numbers and also because there are not the vacancies in and around Redcar.

oh ah ave just remembered , Mark spencer MP has asked the Tory government for more money for training, coz the guys at Redcar have been offered more than the miners. Eh six months after the pit officially shut he wants more money. Does he think people have sat on there backsides for six months since being made redundant. these are the people in power who think there are helping us. Lord above.

Furthermore, I believe another legacy of Thathcher is the creation of " benefit culture". Yes there has always been unemployment, but you survived on unemployment benefit in pre Thatchers era. Since then some people have no intention of working because Thatchers Generation have taught the next generation ( there kids ) you can more than get by on benefits. 

That last sentance does not apply to everyone on benefits, as they do have a part in our society, but a generation of people take benefits as granted.
		
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According to some, all them villages should have got on their collective bikes and went south to the land of milk and honey, instead of staying in a village that I'm sure they (and their friends and families) had lived in for 5 generations or more.......

Probably the same people who are saying that Syrians should stay were they are.:thup:


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## Hobbit (Jan 14, 2016)

Was thinking about this earlier today, and a couple of terms from that era came to mind.

"Closed shop," and "job demarcation."

Thank God we no longer have a closed shop whereby the Unions used to dictate who could work for a company based on whether or not they were in the union - always thought it was the mgt that should decide who is employed.

Job demarcation was taken to far back in the 70's and early 80's. Quite rightly you wouldn't want a plumber doing brain surgery, but why can't a joiner sweep up his own mess rather than wait for the cleaner to turn up.

Another change, and I'm sure many will remember the news item, was proper voting for strike action. The news footage of union reps outside the gates of British Leyland calling for a show of hands for strike action, and the show clearly not being in favour of strike action but the union rep still saying the vote was in favour of striking - and off down the pub they went.

Like any PM, they all get some things right and some things wrong. Depending on your own political persuasion you will either think they were great or not. For PM's of that era I think Thatcher did some good things. However, she only had one good term and was failing badly in the second one until the Argies kicked off. That got her a 3rd term but she continued to fail badly in the opinion polls, and within the party, once the jingoism after the Falklands abated.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2016)

Being in the military I'm unsure on strike procedures but have certainly witnessed the effect 

When the firemen went on strike we had to man the stations with the great green goddesses. I have my own personal opinion in regards their actions and their reasons for doing so 

Now also seen civil service go on strike and had to also do their jobs ( as well as my own ) when they go on strike - have also seen the effects of other strikes 

Strikes always seem IMO to come down to people wanting more or not liking when things were taken away 

it always seemed to stem from a minority and everyone else jumping along 

Seen teachers go along with strikes just to get a day off , same with civil servants - it used to make my blood boil watching fireman sitting outside fire stations whilst we worked days and days in a row covering them and for less money that they already got paid 

It always seems very easy for some to go on strike and it seems to happen really quickly and seems to happen with no care to the rest of the country that they may effect - people take jobs knowing what is expected of them and sometimes those conditions needed to change - I know in ranting here but it's always something that has really griped me - I have seen my job and conditions change so many times and I couldn't do a thing about it and just got on with thankful that j was still working and having pride in my job. 

If the police and military went of strike would the teachers , fireman , civil servants or tube drivers step and fill the role - nope ( well maybe if they could have more money ) 

I'm not sure if there has ever been a strike I have agreed with - maybe the one where nurses went on strike about working conditions 

Sorry for the rant


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## Farneyman (Jan 14, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seen _teachers_ go along with strikes just to get a day off...
		
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Really, when was this?

Us Irish teachers only strike during the holidays


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2016)

What a lot forget about that serve or have served in the Military is that like other jobs we made a choice of career and took the rough with smooth, 
We in the Military get/got paid 7 days a week, 365 days a year,
I would never sit in judgement of those that strike as I have never faced their pay and conditions, but I will think about them this weekend when I am on full pay on the Golf Course and then at a party.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2016)

Farneyman said:



			Really, when was this?

Us Irish teachers only strike during the holidays 

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Late 2000's ? Around 2009 I think it was 

They found out the strike and arranged a day out at the nearest spa.


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## Farneyman (Jan 14, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Late 2000's ? Around 2009 I think it was 

They found out the strike and arranged a day out at the nearest spa.
		
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:rofl:


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## Del_Boy (Jan 14, 2016)

Never agreed with people who strike there are other channels to resolve differences without inflicting pain on others.  Everyone has crap to deal with it is part of life


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrs Thatcher would have been delighted with the BBC choice of panelists on last night's Question Time.
I suppose 4-1 is their take on London's political make up.
To them it would seem balanced.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mrs Thatcher would have been delighted with the BBC choice of panelists on last night's Question Time.
I suppose 4-1 is their take on London's political make up.
To them it would seem balanced.
		
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When you say London's political make up, I assumed thats 2:1 labour:conservative, as per the MP's?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being in the military I'm unsure on strike procedures but have certainly witnessed the effect 

When the firemen went on strike we had to man the stations with the great green goddesses. I have my own personal opinion in regards their actions and their reasons for doing so 

Now also seen civil service go on strike and had to also do their jobs ( as well as my own ) when they go on strike - have also seen the effects of other strikes 

Strikes always seem IMO to come down to people wanting more or not liking when things were taken away 

it always seemed to stem from a minority and everyone else jumping along 

Seen teachers go along with strikes just to get a day off , same with civil servants - it used to make my blood boil watching fireman sitting outside fire stations whilst we worked days and days in a row covering them and for less money that they already got paid 

It always seems very easy for some to go on strike and it seems to happen really quickly and seems to happen with no care to the rest of the country that they may effect - people take jobs knowing what is expected of them and sometimes those conditions needed to change - I know in ranting here but it's always something that has really griped me - I have seen my job and conditions change so many times and I couldn't do a thing about it and just got on with thankful that j was still working and having pride in my job. 

If the police and military went of strike would the teachers , fireman , civil servants or tube drivers step and fill the role - nope ( well maybe if they could have more money ) 
*
I'm not sure if there has ever been a strike I have agreed with - maybe the one where nurses went on strike about working conditions *

Sorry for the rant
		
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I don't know, the Bake Off star makes a very good point.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35320139


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## Tashyboy (Jan 15, 2016)

I don't think that there is anyone who works, believes that they would prefer strike action. Strike action is and should be used as a last resort.
if we did not have strike action, four year old boys would still be working down the pit (well they would if there was any open), and climbing up chimneys.
Today's terms and working conditions have been fought for generations by my parents and there parents. It may seem a bit nostalgic saying that but if they had not chipped away over the years improving said conditions through mediation by unions and sometimes strike action. Then issues like Zero hour contracts and the like would be more common place.
I am sure that Junior doctors would prefer not to strike, but through talking to there employers ( the government ) they feel they are getting no where.
There are many problems that Joe public Feels is wrong in the NHS. junior Doctors terms and conditions is not one of them. So why change? The government says it will improve services, the Drs says it won't. The Drs say it is about saving money and changing working hours, the government say it is not. After all the consultation or lack of, the Junior doctors feel they have no other option but to strike.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			When you say London's political make up, I assumed thats 2:1 labour:conservative, as per the MP's?
		
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Doon is a disciple of Salmond, who still believes the town is painted blue, and that Londoners should be punished for their sins against the rest of the nation...


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## MegaSteve (Jan 15, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			I don't think that there is anyone who works, believes that they would prefer strike action. Strike action is and should be used as a last resort.
if we did not have strike action, four year old boys would still be working down the pit (well they would if there was any open), and climbing up chimneys.
Today's terms and working conditions have been fought for generations by my parents and there parents. It may seem a bit nostalgic saying that but if they had not chipped away over the years improving said conditions through mediation by unions and sometimes strike action. Then issues like Zero hour contracts and the like would be more common place.
I am sure that Junior doctors would prefer not to strike, but through talking to there employers ( the government ) they feel they are getting no where.
There are many problems that Joe public Feels is wrong in the NHS. junior Doctors terms and conditions is not one of them. So why change? The government says it will improve services, the Drs says it won't. The Drs say it is about saving money and changing working hours, the government say it is not. After all the consultation or lack of, the Junior doctors feel they have no other option but to strike.
		
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Well said Tashyboy...

A big thumbs up from me :thup:...


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Never agreed with people who strike there are other channels to resolve differences without inflicting pain on others.  Everyone has crap to deal with it is part of life
		
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There are many rights that workers now enjoy that have been gained through strike action. Yes some people just do it to be deliberately awkward or are on a power trip, but to say that people should never strike is ignoring, and probably a bit insulting, to courageous workers in the past that have fought for rights many now have.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Well said Tashyboy...

A big thumbs up from me :thup:...
		
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and me.


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Well said Tashyboy...

A big thumbs up from me :thup:...
		
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And me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 15, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			I don't think that there is anyone who works, believes that they would prefer strike action. Strike action is and should be used as a last resort.
if we did not have strike action, four year old boys would still be working down the pit (well they would if there was any open), and climbing up chimneys.
Today's terms and working conditions have been fought for generations by my parents and there parents. It may seem a bit nostalgic saying that but if they had not chipped away over the years improving said conditions through mediation by unions and sometimes strike action. Then issues like Zero hour contracts and the like would be more common place.
I am sure that Junior doctors would prefer not to strike, but through talking to there employers ( the government ) they feel they are getting no where.
There are many problems that Joe public Feels is wrong in the NHS. junior Doctors terms and conditions is not one of them. So why change? The government says it will improve services, the Drs says it won't. The Drs say it is about saving money and changing working hours, the government say it is not. After all the consultation or lack of, the Junior doctors feel they have no other option but to strike.
		
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Well said.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2016)

Well said Tashyboy
The fact it is the first junior doctors strike for 40 years should have set the alarm bells ringing in any politicians ears.


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## Ross61 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			There are many rights that workers now enjoy that have been gained through strike action. Yes some people just do it to be deliberately awkward or are on a power trip, but to say that people should never strike is ignoring, and probably a bit insulting, to courageous workers in the past that have fought for rights many now have.
		
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I totally agree. If it was not for the Dagenham ladies, for example. Women would still have no where near equal pay.

plus going further back in history the London matchgirls at Bryant and May were working in appalling conditions with no regard for their health working with toxic chemicals. They had no option but to strike as the company bosses would not do anything.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 15, 2016)

Why should I and others have to suffer when others are having issues at work.  I don't go inflicting any inconvenience on others if things are going pear shaped at my place of work


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



*Why should I *and others have to suffer when others are having issues at work.  I don't go inflicting any inconvenience on others if things are going pear shaped at my place of work
		
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Fair point.  How dare people strike to say get equal pay or against intolerable working conditions if you personally get a bit inconvenienced. I agree they should just suck it up and be grateful they have a job. I don't know what they were thinking the yogurt eating yurt wearing fascist communists....


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## Del_Boy (Jan 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair point.  How dare people strike to say get equal pay or against intolerable working conditions if you personally get a bit inconvenienced. I agree they should just suck it up and be grateful they have a job. I don't know what they were thinking the yogurt eating yurt wearing fascist communists....
		
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Or get another job


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Or get another job
		
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I know, I know, they are just being utterly selfish and thinking of themselves by having some principals and standing up against exploitation in the workplace. Instead of just sucking it up or getting another job, as it is well known that the types of people generally exploited in the workplace can easily move between jobs.  OK, that may mean that others will suffer and be exploited in the future as well if nothing is done about it.  But think of the big picture.  You are being slightly inconvenienced!.  Some people hey, it's all me me me....


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Or get another job
		
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Yeah, right!

Junior Doctors are in an ideal position to do that......Not!

As are Teachers, Firemen, Police, Nurses and anyone else in such 'specialist' occupations (which are normally within public service)! Even Train/Underground Drivers for that matter! Actually, come to think of it, that's the reason there's a shortage of Nurses and Teachers - the stress of the jobs is not warranted by the compensation! And there's certainly an argument that the military could be similarly affected too - though happens to be aligned with the aims of the employer!

@Hacker..

It's principles btw. Though in the case of teachers, maybe both!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah, right!

Junior Doctors are in an ideal position to do that......Not!

As are Teachers, Firemen, Police, Nurses and anyone else in such 'specialist' occupations (which are normally within public service)! Even Train/Underground Drivers for that matter! Actually, come to think of it, that's the reason there's a shortage of Nurses and Teachers - the stress of the jobs is not warranted by the compensation! And there's certainly an argument that the military could be similarly affected too - though happens to be aligned with the aims of the employer!

*@Hacker..

It's principles btw. Though in the case of teachers, maybe both! *

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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 15, 2016)

hacker khan said:



View attachment 18155



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hahahahahaha


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## Del_Boy (Jan 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah, right!

Junior Doctors are in an ideal position to do that......Not!

As are Teachers, Firemen, Police, Nurses and anyone else in such 'specialist' occupations (which are normally within public service)! Even Train/Underground Drivers for that matter! Actually, come to think of it, that's the reason there's a shortage of Nurses and Teachers - the stress of the jobs is not warranted by the compensation! And there's certainly an argument that the military could be similarly affected too - though happens to be aligned with the aims of the employer!

@Hacker..

It's principles btw. Though in the case of teachers, maybe both! 

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Some of the professions you mention can't go on strike, therefore, there options are stick with it or get another job


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Some of the professions you mention can't go on strike, therefore, there options are stick with it or get another job
		
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Are you for real? Are you honestly saying workers should do exactly what they are told or leave? No rights what so ever?


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## Del_Boy (Jan 15, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you for real? Are you honestly saying workers should do exactly what they are told or leave? No rights what so ever?
		
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Of course thy should have rights and a contract of employment, you've got people banging on that employers should have the option to strike which is a pain in the backside for innocent parties all I'm saying is that some professions don't have the option to go on strike so they either go down the employment law route, get on with it or leave


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 18155



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Ha! :rofl:

Wouldn't normally correct spelling (these days), but that one was too contextual to resist!

Oh and Ross61's reference to Bryant and May and Strikes appealed to my sense of humour too!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Ha! :rofl:

*Wouldn't normally correct spelling (these days), but that one was too contextual to resist!*

Oh and Ross61's reference to Bryant and May and Strikes appealed to my sense of humour too! 

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To be fair it was a good spot.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Of course thy should have rights and a contract of employment, you've got people banging on that employers should have the option to strike which is a pain in the backside for innocent parties all I'm saying is that some professions don't have the option to go on strike so they either go down the employment law route, get on with it or leave
		
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So your argument is that as a few professions do not have the right to strike and also that you get a little inconvenienced then no one should ever strike?


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## Ross61 (Jan 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Ha! :rofl:

Wouldn't normally correct spelling (these days), but that one was too contextual to resist!

*Oh and Ross61's reference to Bryant and May and Strikes appealed to my sense of humour too!* 

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I live to amuse.

It was accidental, but I did realise just after writing it. I thought no one will pick up on it...... Should have known better!


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 15, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Of course thy should have rights and a contract of employment, you've got people banging on that employers should have the option to strike which is a pain in the backside for innocent parties all I'm saying is that some professions don't have the option to go on strike so they either go down the employment law route, get on with it or leave
		
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Them particular professions normally enjoy good wages or pensions, so less reason for them all to strike.

Do you think sickness provision, a maximum working week, overtime, holiday pay, equal pay would have been given freely if people hadnt have fought for them for over 100 years.

Your either on the wind up, or particularly thick.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 16, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Them particular professions normally enjoy good wages or pensions, so less reason for them all to strike.
		
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Unlike junior doctors and tube drivers their not on great wages or perks when compared to the police or army.



Liverbirdie said:



			Do you think sickness provision, a maximum working week, overtime, holiday pay, equal pay would have been given freely if people hadnt have fought for them for over 100 years.
		
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Because of the pain others have gone through in the past employment law has vastly improved - all I'm saying because of that there is no need to strike in this day and age.



Liverbirdie said:



			Your either on the wind up, or particularly thick.
		
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rightly or wrongly this is my opinion which I'm entitled to.  Can I suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 16, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Unlike junior doctors and tube drivers their not on great wages or perks when compared to the police or army.



Because of the pain others have gone through in the past employment law has vastly improved - all I'm saying because of that there is no need to strike in this day and age.



rightly or wrongly this is my opinion which I'm entitled to.  Can I suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself.
		
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1. Isnt that a volte face from you now?

2. I would argue that with certain things like zero hours contracts, equal pay still not achieved for the different genders amongst others, capitalism still isnt giving up all that it can. If it wasnt for unions the famous Monty Python sketch wouldn't have been a farce.

3. I  thought you were doing the classic wind up of posting 1-2 sentence pithy answers, so I sincerely apologise. Your beliefs though - wow.

Maybe it's due to your privileged upbringing.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			Because of the pain others have gone through in the past employment law has vastly improved - all I'm saying because of that there is no need to strike in this day and age.

rightly or wrongly this is my opinion which I'm entitled to.  Can I suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself.
		
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Employment law went backwards, in terms of workers rights, a year gone May when the last tranche of employment legislation became law. It's an awful lot harder to get things to a tribunal AND the employee has to pay costs up front, getting them back if they win. And that's just one aspect. The White Paper was debated at length and, heatedly, in great detail at the Hobbit dinner table. Daughter #1 wrote most of it.

And then there's things like Sunday working for shop workers. When that was forced on the workers many of them got enhanced pay for the Sunday. Apart from the odd long serving, legacy, contract that has just about disappeared.

maybe you, like me, has a decent employer but if you think all is rosy for employees in the UK with regards to the new employment laws you are mistaken.


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## Jensen (Jan 16, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Maybe it's due to your privileged upbringing.
		
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I think it's well overdue since you added salt and vinegar to the chip on your shoulder


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 16, 2016)

Jensen said:



			I think it's well overdue since you added salt and vinegar to the chip on your shoulder
		
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Care to remove it for me?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 17, 2016)

Go Pats. Still think there not firing on all four though.

oops wrong thread&#128513;


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