# Have you ever played with a known handicap cheat?



## Beezerk (Jul 12, 2022)

Got a funny one coming up this weekend. Me and a couple of mates have entered a comp this Sunday, another lad has joined our group who we don’t know, his handicap on the club system is -0.4 😳
We asked about in the club and someone said he’s a member at another course (forum member also a member there iirc) and has also joined our place for some reason. He was saying the lad was banned by England Golf for “handicap issues” although we didn’t really get to the bottom of that, he also said he’s more a 10 handicapper rather than scratch.
Quite looking forward to it now, I’ll report back on Sunday evening 😂


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 12, 2022)

Interesting
If it was the other way round then cause for concern, but a vanity handicap  is a waste of time and just makes him look silly


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 12, 2022)

We’ve got a 3 handicapper at our club who’s handed in 5 cards in total since 2020. He’s playing about 3 times per week. 

Pride of having a low handicap. Don’t understand it. I find it more embarrassing when you can’t play anywhere near to it.


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## Beezerk (Jul 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Interesting
If it was the other way round then cause for concern, but a vanity handicap  is a waste of time and just makes him look silly
		
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Yes I know, I don’t get it, playing on an artificially low handicap 🤔


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 12, 2022)

It’s not our recently departed (from the forum) well off friend from north of the border with aspirations of getting to scratch is it? 😂


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## patricks148 (Jul 12, 2022)

A well known one around here, guy used to clean up in walk ons, claimed a course record and a scratch handicap. Got drawn with him twice in comps and neither time did he break 90.loved being Billy big balls, a few courses banned him from entering their comps.


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## fundy (Jul 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Interesting
If it was the other way round then cause for concern, but a vanity handicap  is a waste of time and just makes him look silly
		
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gets him entries into scratch opens I expect the underlying reason if true


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## jamielaing (Jul 12, 2022)

Low handicap can help you get into scratch opens and more desirable venues, considered for team golf etc. 

Loads of guys are doing it, there is one I know of who is putting in supplementary cards every time he plays well and is cheating the system. All so he can get selected in the team. Yet he's never shot better than +6 in a comp.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Interesting
If it was the other way round then cause for concern, but a vanity handicap  is a waste of time and just makes him look silly
		
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A lot do it to enable entry into events that are balloted out 

For someone to get that low means a lot of scorecards around scratch - someone would have enabled those scores to go in 

Even harder to do now with WHS - used to be easy to keep a low handicap on the old system


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## Oddsocks (Jul 12, 2022)

How is G1zI


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## upsidedown (Jul 12, 2022)

There's a guy in the Senior ranks who is off +4 but never plays to it in any of the national stuff.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2022)

jamielaing said:



			Low handicap can help you get into scratch opens and more desirable venues, considered for team golf etc.

Loads of guys are doing it, there is one I know of who is putting in supplementary cards every time he plays well and is cheating the system. All so he can get selected in the team. Yet he's never shot better than +6 in a comp.
		
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Do they then not look ridiculous when the scores go in? I'd feel embarrassed, or do they simply not care?


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## fundy (Jul 12, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do they then not look ridiculous when the scores go in? I'd feel embarrassed, or do they simply not care?
		
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the latter, they get to play some decent tracks at very reduced fees


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2022)

fundy said:



			the latter, they get to play some decent tracks at very reduced fees
		
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Mmmmm, very poor then. They must have much thicker skins than me.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s not our recently departed (from the forum) well off friend from north of the border with aspirations of getting to scratch is it? 😂
		
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Hes down to 13.4!

Been monitoring....


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## bobmac (Jul 12, 2022)

I played in a national comp a few years ago where someone questioned someone's 8 h/cap.
His club was contacted and sure enough the guy was off 8, although he'd only been a member a few months.
The first guy swore he was off 2 the previous year.
He won the comp with 42 pts


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

Soon to play against 2 in pairs matchplay..

Both guys HI's are above 20 - no cards in the system for over 12 months and yet both shot in the 70's in their last match against two people I know well and trust.... We're going to get battered


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## Cherry13 (Jul 12, 2022)

I'm embarrassed that I can't play to my 10 Hcap at the moment.  

But yeh, we have someone who is 'gaming' the system to achieve a hcap for a particular reason.  It's a bit daft, as they'll just get found out in due course.


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## moogie (Jul 12, 2022)

Was involved in a pairs match recently
Where 1 of the other pair
Had gone from scratch to (4.5) 5 hcap
In 4 months....!!


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## sjw (Jul 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s not our recently departed (from the forum) well off friend from north of the border with aspirations of getting to scratch is it? 😂
		
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Has he/she gone? I was quite enjoying their posts


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## Bazzatron (Jul 12, 2022)

fundy said:



			gets him entries into scratch opens I expect the underlying reason if true
		
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I can't imagine playing in a scratch comp and knocking it around in 100. I'd be proper embarrassed.


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## Bazzatron (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Soon to play against 2 in pairs matchplay..

Both guys HI's are above 20 - no cards in the system for over 12 months and yet both shot in the 70's in their last match against two people I know well and trust.... We're going to get battered
		
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That's just blatant cheating.


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## SteveW86 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Hes down to 13.4!

Been monitoring....
		
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Come on, do share


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			That's just blatant cheating.
		
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I know... The committee are looking at it for next year - plans to insert some sort of "must have 5 scores made within comps" entrance criteria or something to try and eradicate guys like these entering and then walking over the competition. 

Makes a joke of one of the most sought after comps at the club. Theyre in the Semi-finals with ease


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## Imurg (Jul 12, 2022)

sjw said:



			Has he/she gone? I was quite enjoying their posts 

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On a very long holiday....


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Come on, do share
		
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Well someone thought they worked out who he was... so I just occasionally pop on to his home clubs results and scroll through to see how hes got on..

Not many competitive rounds played it seems.... but his handicap has dropped from 26 (his I won post) to now being 13.4 so I expect some general play score entries...


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			On a very long holiday....
		
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5 star one though no doubt


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## Wayman (Jul 12, 2022)

so no more. He has Been at more clubs than anyone in the county 
Take some ear plugs. Boring player and bloke (well I say bloke) Let us know on Sunday how much fun you had


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## Springveldt (Jul 12, 2022)

moogie said:



			Was involved in a pairs match recently
Where 1 of the other pair
Had gone from scratch to (4.5) 5 hcap
In 4 months....!!
		
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I've went from 5.4 to 7.5 in 6 weeks. Maybe he is going through a rough patch. If my current "form" continues for another 4 weeks I'll probably be 10.4 at this rate.


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## Springveldt (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well someone thought they worked out who he was... so I just occasionally pop on to his home clubs results and scroll through to see how hes got on..

Not many competitive rounds played it seems.... but his handicap has dropped from 26 (his I won post) to now being 13.4 so I expect some general play score entries...
		
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Good on him. That's what most of the forum was telling him, to just get some cards in.


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## upsidedown (Jul 12, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I've went from 5.4 to 7.5 in 6 weeks. Maybe he is going through a rough patch. If my current "form" continues for another 4 weeks I'll probably be 10.4 at this rate.
		
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It happens , gone from 2.3 to 4.4 in 4 weeks 😪


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## fundy (Jul 12, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			I can't imagine playing in a scratch comp and knocking it around in 100. I'd be proper embarrassed.
		
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Ive come closer than Id rather admit lol


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

I remember a guy from another club, who played against our club on several occasions, whose handicap was 1. His team mates were extremely dismissive of him. Apparently he NEVER played in competitions, and his handicap was based purely on social golf. He only ever submitted scores that were good (he basically hadn't submitted cards for years, and his handicap was based on a few really old scores from ages before). His ambition was to get to scratch, and he had a golf simulator in his house. He was the worst single figure handicapper I had ever played against I think (that includes guys up to 9 btw, and he was off 1). He might have been dangerous of 15 or so.

Mind you, that club also organised roll ups every weekend for members, and the official rule (accepted by Committee) was that if a player scored well, they must hand in their card for handicap. They were not allowed if they played badly. I'm sure the intentions were good, albeit completely incorrect, by trying to ensure players didn't have handicaps that were too high. Of course, it went completely the other way, and most of them had handicaps that were too low for them. They went from being a club that competed (and even won) the top division in the county handicap league, to getting relegated and struggling in Division 3. I wouldn't be surprised if most of their regular players, who played in those roll ups, all had handicaps that were at least 2 or 3 shots too low for them.


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## Dando (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			5 star one though no doubt
		
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He seemed the sort that would go to "elevenerife" on holiday


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## Imurg (Jul 12, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			It happens , gone from 2.3 to 4.4 in 4 weeks 😪
		
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I went from 5.3 to 7.8 inside a month - worth an extra 3 shots on the course....Still struggling to break 80...


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## Oddsocks (Jul 12, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I played in a national comp a few years ago where someone questioned someone's 8 h/cap.
His club was contacted and sure enough the guy was off 8, although he'd only been a member a few months.
The first guy swore he was off 2 the previous year.
He won the comp with 42 pts
		
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I always knew @Smiffy was a ringer!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I went from 5.3 to 7.8 inside a month - worth an extra 3 shots on the course....Still struggling to break 80...

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I went from 6.6 on 4th Sep 2021 to 10.3 on 27th April 2022. It is worth noting that we were unable to submit scores for handicap between mid November to early April at our club, due to maintenance. Therefore, this handicap increase effectively occurred in the space of 2.5-3 months. 

My course handicap increased from 8 to 13.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 12, 2022)

Yes, someone I know well I happened to check his EG to notice he was putting handicap cards in through winter. 
Unsure how he was doing that on a well shortened unmeasured course and 16 holes open but he had 18 scores🤣

He was actually putting in scores at 6/7 over to lower his handicap. 
Nobody at the club had noticed it, and just a few week ago has left for another club. 

The best thing is he complained last season that he never wins anything and consistently shoots around 15-18 over in comps.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Yes, someone I know well I happened to check his EG to notice he was putting handicap cards in through winter.
Unsure how he was doing that on a well shortened unmeasured course and 16 holes open but he had 18 scores🤣

He was actually putting in scores at 6/7 over to lower his handicap.
Nobody at the club had noticed it, and just a few week ago has left for another club.

The best thing is he complained last season that he never wins anything and consistently shoots around 15-18 over in comps.
		
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Can a club disable the option on MyEG and the ISV to stop players submitting scores from their course?

If they can, then they made a mistake in not doing so. If they can't, it would be a useful feature.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I know... The committee are looking at it for next year - plans to insert some sort of "must have 5 scores made within comps" entrance criteria or something to try and eradicate guys like these entering and then walking over the competition.

Makes a joke of one of the most sought after comps at the club. Theyre in the Semi-finals with ease
		
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Not sure how it would protect though, they just play 5 rounds hacking it around and then "turn it on" for matchplay. If people want to cheat then it feels like they can, you just hope honesty and reputation keep them from doing so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2022)

No...and tbh I don't think that in all my years I've even known of one.  In current club - nothing - in a previous a couple of lads were talked about...but just suspicions and quite possibly just malicious gossip.


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## Billysboots (Jul 12, 2022)

We have a guy at ours who I _know _submits cards way better than he scores. I know this because quite recently we played a fun format on a Saturday morning - full handicap team event, best 2 from 4, from the white, yellow and red tees in rotation. I marked the card and he returned 24 points off a 7 handicap. I saw on EG the following day he’d submitted a card a full _eleven _strokes better than he’d played, claiming to have done so from the whites.

Neither me nor the other two in our team had verified his score via the app. It turns out his mate, who played in another group, did it for him and he reciprocated. This despite them having not even played together.

Similar happened the next week and our handicap secretary was informed. I don’t get why anyone would want an artificially low handicap other than either vanity, or wanting to represent the club in matches.

Either way it’s cheating, and he’s been rumbled.


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 12, 2022)

There are various degrees of "cheating" with regards to handicap.
eg: Not playing the the last 4 holes to the best of your ability.
Hard one to prove, but I see blokes doing it when they know they won't be in the prizes and turn a mediocre score into a very bad one, knowing it will keep the handicap high.
Some seem to get far more kicks winning £2 in social golf and bragging about who they beat than doing well in club competitions.


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## Depreston (Jul 12, 2022)

What’s the most shots you can go up in a year 

Asking for a mate


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## jim8flog (Jul 12, 2022)

In my role as the handicap chairman we looked at on chap quite carefully. He had a low enough handicap to get in to prestigious championship events but never scored anywhere near the handicap he had in any of them and he never played in any other comps. He got a fairly large increase in his handicap as a result which precluded him from entering any more.


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## jim8flog (Jul 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



			What’s the most shots you can go up in a year

Asking for a mate
		
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 5 shots and once you get to 3 the process slows down increases.


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## AliMc (Jul 12, 2022)

I played a club 4bbb tie recently, pp and I were both off about 5 at the time, one of our opponents was off 1.1, I didn't know him but one of the guys I regularly play with said he's never a 1 h'cap, admittedly I played really well, was 1 under for the 16 holes played, but it's obvious that he isn't a genuine 1 h'cap and unlikely ever will be but he has achieved that under whs, never seen his name in medals among the regular scratch contenders so I assume he's a gp fair weather player, I think his partner was a bit pissed off with him tbh as be basically gave up half way round


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I know... The committee are looking at it for next year - plans to insert some sort of "must have 5 scores made within comps" entrance criteria or something to try and eradicate guys like these entering and then walking over the competition.

Makes a joke of one of the most sought after comps at the club. Theyre in the Semi-finals with ease
		
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That's always been possible. Remember the 'short game wizard' from the Trilby Tour?
Golf and golf handicaps has/have a knack of reflecting a player's personality quite well at times - both those who 'cheat' and those with 'vanity handicaps'.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			We have a guy at ours who I _know _submits cards way better than he scores. I know this because quite recently we played a fun format on a Saturday morning - full handicap team event, best 2 from 4, from the white, yellow and red tees in rotation. I marked the card and he returned 24 points off a 7 handicap. I saw on EG the following day he’d submitted a card a full _eleven _strokes better than he’d played, claiming to have done so from the whites.

Neither me nor the other two in our team had verified his score via the app. It turns out his mate, who played in another group, did it for him and he reciprocated. This despite them having not even played together.

Similar happened the next week and our handicap secretary was informed. I don’t get why anyone would want an artificially low handicap other than either vanity, or wanting to represent the club in matches.

Either way it’s cheating, and he’s been rumbled.
		
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I'll be interested to hear the outcome


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



			What’s the most shots you can go up in a year 

Asking for a mate
		
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A max increase of 5 to Index (from lowest Index to within that year), which can often translate to about 6 shots on the course handicap (based on a typically average Slope).


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## hovis (Jul 12, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			How is G1zI
		
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Has he left the forum or booted?  Last I heard he was bragging about winning a comp


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## woofers (Jul 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can a club disable the option on MyEG and the ISV to stop players submitting scores from their course?

If they can, then they made a mistake in not doing so. If they can't, it would be a useful feature.
		
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Yes that feature is available on both IG and the England Golf WHS platform, we enabled them last winter when the white tees were removed from play and the yellow and red tees moved forward to winter tee positions. No General Play cards could be submitted although it didn’t stop some members trying !


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## Dando (Jul 12, 2022)

hovis said:



			Has he left the forum or booted?  Last I heard he was bragging about winning a comp
		
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He’s too busy on the PGA tour to be on the forum


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## Billysboots (Jul 12, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			How is G1zI
		
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Still lurking. Not sure if he’s still posting. Or even able to.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Dando said:



			He’s too busy on the PGA tour to be on the forum
		
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He might have managed to get on LIV, as one of the hackers no one has ever heard of.


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## GGTTH (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well someone thought they worked out who he was... so I just occasionally pop on to his home clubs results and scroll through to see how hes got on..

Not many competitive rounds played it seems.... but his handicap has dropped from 26 (his I won post) to now being 13.4 so I expect some general play score entries...
		
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That is a bit weird


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## Billysboots (Jul 12, 2022)

GGTTH said:



			That is a bit weird
		
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The man himself suggested someone here had emailed his club. In the unlikely event that’s actually true, I suppose it’s always possible his behaviour has been subject to scrutiny. Losing the best part of 13/14 shots in a very short period of time is extreme without some sort of human intervention.


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 13, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			5 shots and once you get to 3 the process slows down increases.
		
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I would just like to point out that an increase of 5 to one's HI could possibly result in an increase of 6 shots to course or playing handicap.

10 x (132/113) = 12 rounded
15 x (132/113) = 18 rounded


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 13, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			How is G1zI
		
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I think he is one of them I've never heard of before in the ballot to be Prime Minister.


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## Crazyface (Jul 13, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			There are various degrees of "cheating" with regards to handicap.
eg: Not playing the the last 4 holes to the best of your ability.
Hard one to prove, but I see blokes doing it when they know they won't be in the prizes and turn a mediocre score into a very bad one, knowing it will keep the handicap high.
Some seem to get far more kicks winning £2 in social golf and bragging about who they beat than doing well in club competitions. 

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My bil used to do this and openly admitted it to me. I stopped playing with him.


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## SteveW86 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			The man himself suggested someone here had emailed his club. In the unlikely event that’s actually true, I suppose it’s always possible his behaviour has been subject to scrutiny. Losing the best part of 13/14 shots in a very short period of time is extreme without some sort of human intervention.
		
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We have had someone go from 34 to 18 so far this year. Young lad who is new to the game I think, he’s put in loads of scores so we’ll done to him.


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## Neilds (Jul 13, 2022)

What I find really strange is that anyone would get an artificially low handicap to play in club matches. Surely everyone would know they could never play to such a low handicap and would lose every match so why would they even get picked? Defeats the object of getting a low handicap


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			We have had someone go from 34 to 18 so far this year. Young lad who is new to the game I think, he’s put in loads of scores so we’ll done to him.
		
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Yes, it would not be difficult for a player to get significant decreases when they only just get their handicap. Their first 3 rounds could have been terrible, and subsequently submitted much better rounds. The handicap Index can be quite volatile between submission of 3 cards to submission of 20, and especially between 3 and about 15ish.


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## AliMc (Jul 13, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			There are various degrees of "cheating" with regards to handicap.
eg: Not playing the the last 4 holes to the best of your ability.
Hard one to prove, but I see blokes doing it when they know they won't be in the prizes and turn a mediocre score into a very bad one, knowing it will keep the handicap high.
Some seem to get far more kicks winning £2 in social golf and bragging about who they beat than doing well in club competitions. 

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I do this but in reverse !
The last few medals I've played I've started off horrendously, been 5 or 6 over after a few holes then usually go on to play the rest in 1 or 2 over, it's annoying as hell but I keep doing it and it's certainly not on purpose !


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## RichA (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			The man himself suggested someone here had emailed his club. In the unlikely event that’s actually true, I suppose it’s always possible his behaviour has been subject to scrutiny. Losing the best part of 13/14 shots in a very short period of time is extreme without some sort of human intervention.
		
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A few of us who joined our club and started playing often while recording most of our rounds on EG went from high 20s to mid-teens in the space of 6-12 months. It seems quite common for newish golfers.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

I am aware of people cherry picking general play rounds to get their handicap lower.  Not aware of anyone doing it the other way.

It’s so obvious when you look at their record, for one player, all general play scores are high 70’s low 80’s, and 90% of comps high 80’s or worse.  I guess there is no suspicious scoring patterns reporting done at our place.


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2022)

RichA said:



			A few of us who joined our club and started playing often while recording most of our rounds on EG went from high 20s to mid-teens in the space of 6-12 months. It seems quite common for newish golfers.
		
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Agreed. But this fella went from mid 20’s to 13.4 in a matter of two or three weeks.


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			I am aware of people cherry picking general play rounds to get their handicap lower.  Not aware of anyone doing it the other way.

It’s so obvious when you look at their record, for one player, all general play scores are high 70’s low 80’s, and 90% of comps high 80’s or worse.  I guess there is no suspicious scoring patterns reporting done at our place.
		
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Plenty of people go to pieces when the pressure is on, i.e. in a competition, so it would be impossible to prove unless someone played alongside him and witnessed him blatantly tanking holes.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed. But this fella went from mid 20’s to 13.4 in a matter of two or three weeks.
		
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Was he a new member, or someone with a full handicap history? If he was a new member, that sort of change wouldn't be that unusual. For example, his first 3 cards could have provided a best score differential of mid to high 20's, where the guy was playing poorly / bad weather / getting to know the course, etc. Once he got his handicap, he might have had a lesson and practiced a bit before submitting another score, by which time he played well that day and the weather was decent. Might have shot a score differential of 14.4 to get the 13.4 index. 

Obviously, if the initial handicap in the mid 20's was already based on a full handicap record of 20 scores, then it would be more unusual to see such a sudden drop. Even if the chap submitted a large number of cards and great scores, you'd wonder where the sudden improvement in ability came from. It might still be genuine, maybe he spent a week at the David Leadbetter Academy or something, but without knowing the full facts I am sure such a drop would raise a few eye brows.


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Was he a new member, or someone with a full handicap history? If he was a new member, that sort of change wouldn't be that unusual. For example, his first 3 cards could have provided a best score differential of mid to high 20's, where the guy was playing poorly / bad weather / getting to know the course, etc. Once he got his handicap, he might have had a lesson and practiced a bit before submitting another score, by which time he played well that day and the weather was decent. Might have shot a score differential of 14.4 to get the 13.4 index.

Obviously, if the initial handicap in the mid 20's was already based on a full handicap record of 20 scores, then it would be more unusual to see such a sudden drop. Even if the chap submitted a large number of cards and great scores, you'd wonder where the sudden improvement in ability came from. It might still be genuine, maybe he spent a week at the David Leadbetter Academy or something, but without knowing the full facts I am sure such a drop would raise a few eye brows.
		
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I don’t know the full history but I’m sure someone else here managed to view his handicap record.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I don’t know the full history but I’m sure someone else here managed to view his handicap record.
		
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O yeah, completely forgot you were talking about that arrogant chap from the forum (though it was some random guy at your club). I agree, from what he was posting alone, I am heavily leaning towards suspicious behaviour regarding his handicap


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## Slab (Jul 13, 2022)

Wouldn't dramatic change in handicap be more down to number of cards rather than over a time period?

i.e A month is maybe 1 or 2 rounds to some but a dozen rounds to someone else


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## jim8flog (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed. But this fella went from mid 20’s to 13.4 in a matter of two or three weeks.
		
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 If he is/was newly handicapped it is the way it works if they are putting in plenty of cards.

Even pre WHS it was fairly easy to drop several shots quickly if enough cards were going in (bearing in mind [from memory] the the player would drop .4 for each shot better than handicap when in his 20s and would get exceptional score reductions if very much better than handicap).


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 13, 2022)

AliMc said:



			I do this but in reverse !
The last few medals I've played I've started off horrendously, been 5 or 6 over after a few holes then usually go on to play the rest in 1 or 2 over, it's annoying as hell but I keep doing it and it's certainly not on purpose !
		
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I do the same regularly. Here's a recent example - 5-over after 8, then 1-under for the next 10-holes. Annoying.


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## nickjdavis (Jul 13, 2022)

jamielaing said:



			Low handicap can help you get into scratch opens and more desirable venues, considered for team golf etc.

Loads of guys are doing it, there is one I know of who is putting in supplementary cards every time he plays well and is cheating the system. All so he can get selected in the team. Yet he's never shot better than +6 in a comp.
		
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Any reasonable team Captain, when considering the player for selection, would look at his scoring record and say...nope....not enough scores in competetive golf/hasn't demonstrated the ability to play well in a comp...not picking him.


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			If he is/was newly handicapped it is the way it works if they are putting in plenty of cards.

Even pre WHS it was fairly easy to drop several shots quickly if enough cards were going in (bearing in mind [from memory] the the player would drop .4 for each shot better than handicap when in his 20s and would get exceptional score reductions if very much better than handicap).
		
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He wasn’t putting in plenty of cards though. That was one of the biggest criticisms of his alleged behaviour.


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## Robster59 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			He wasn’t putting in plenty of cards though. That was one of the biggest criticisms of his alleged behaviour.
		
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The thing with him is that people called him a cheat to his "face" on here, and he really didn't care.  Then goes on to brag about winning competitions.  Some people are totally brazen about it.


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## _MH_ (Jul 13, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			I am aware of people cherry picking general play rounds to get their handicap lower.  Not aware of anyone doing it the other way.

It’s so obvious when you look at their record, for one player, all general play scores are high 70’s low 80’s, and 90% of comps high 80’s or worse.  I guess there is no suspicious scoring patterns reporting done at our place.
		
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I thought general play rounds had to be pre-registered (either in the app or pro-shop)?  So if you don't put a score in afterwards you'd automatically get given net double bogey (or somesuch) for each hole?


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## Bdill93 (Jul 13, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			The thing with him is that people called him a cheat to his "face" on here, and he really didn't care.  Then goes on to brag about winning competitions.  Some people are totally brazen about it.
		
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Well he seems to have changed his ways! 13.1 is pretty respectable


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well he seems to have changed his ways! 13.1 is pretty respectable
		
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Or his ways have been changed on his behalf.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Or his ways have been changed on his behalf.
		
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Either way, its come down and itll be much harder for him to win a comp


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

_MH_ said:



			I thought general play rounds had to be pre-registered (either in the app or pro-shop)?  So if you don't put a score in afterwards you'd automatically get given net double bogey (or somesuch) for each hole?
		
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They do but with the My England Golf app there are ways round it. From the point of registering your intent, you only need to wait two hours before you're allowed to submit the final scores. Therefore someone could in theory play most of their round, register in the app around the 14th hole or something, then having stayed for a couple of drinks after the round, enter the card just before they leave the car park.


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## Robster59 (Jul 13, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Or his ways have been changed on his behalf.
		
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Knowing the person involved, I think this is more likely.


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## _MH_ (Jul 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			They do but with the My England Golf app there are ways round it. From the point of registering your intent, you only need to wait two hours before you're allowed to submit the final scores. Therefore someone could in theory play most of their round, register in the app around the 14th hole or something, then having stayed for a couple of drinks after the round, enter the card just before they leave the car park.
		
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Nice work England Golf! I guess no system is completely fraud proof but I can't help think they could do a little more to discourage this sort of thing.  QR code in the pro-shop or on the now ubiquitous slope tables maybe - have to be scanned before a general play round?


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

_MH_ said:



			Nice work England Golf! I guess no system is completely fraud proof but I can't help think they could do a little more to discourage this sort of thing.  QR code in the pro-shop or on the now ubiquitous slope tables maybe - have to be scanned before a general play round?
		
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Whatever you do there will be a way around it, unless there's a human being verifying the start and finish I guess.


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## SteveW86 (Jul 13, 2022)

I dont understand people who manipulate their handicaps. Golf is supposed to be one of the most honest sports there is, not playing in that way is just wrong.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Plenty of people go to pieces when the pressure is on, i.e. in a competition, so it would be impossible to prove unless someone played alongside him and witnessed him blatantly tanking holes.
		
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You’re missing the point the issue is not the comp rounds.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

_MH_ said:



			I thought general play rounds had to be pre-registered (either in the app or pro-shop)?  So if you don't put a score in afterwards you'd automatically get given net double bogey (or somesuch) for each hole?
		
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In the case of this individual they are known to get to 9 holes and register if they have a great front 9.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I dont understand people who manipulate their handicaps. Golf is supposed to be one of the most honest sports there is, not playing in that way is just wrong.
		
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I've a mate who is not submitting cards at the moment, as he doesn't want his handicap to go up, and he is playing badly. He played with another mate last week, and they all registered for a round. On the 18th, he just said "I'm not submitting this, I'll just say I'm injured". That is his general attitude at the moment. His handicap is 18, so he can't even be a vanity handicapper.

I know another guy, off 1, who will only submit good scores. He gets around this by pre-registering at the end of or following the round, and entering the score when permitted.


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## Springveldt (Jul 13, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			You’re missing the point the issue is not the comp rounds.
		
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I don't think he is. Some people find it much easier to post better scores in general play rounds because the don't have the "pressure" of being in a competition.


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			You’re missing the point the issue is not the comp rounds.
		
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I'm not at all. The point is you cannot prove 'suspicious scoring' when the player will just argue he's gone to pieces in the competitions.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I don't think he is. Some people find it much easier to post better scores in general play rounds because the don't have the "pressure" of being in a competition.
		
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So you don’t get it either.  When you look at look at their General Play scores they are all good scores, I would call that statistically unlikely.  Maybe I am unusual in that I can be 💩 on any day regardless of it being a comp.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I'm not at all. The point is you cannot prove 'suspicious scoring' when the player will just argue he's gone to pieces in the competitions.
		
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So you think someone can always submit a good score outside a comp?  Doesn’t seem like common sense to me.

Besides you don’t need to prove anything or make any sanctions.  The club should be able to run a report and make people aware of anything being flagged for unlikely trends, and remind them of their responsibilities.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			So you think someone can always submit a good score outside a comp?  Doesn’t seem like common sense to me.

Besides you don’t need to prove anything or make any sanctions.  The club should be able to run a report and make people aware of anything being flagged for unlikely trends, and remind them of their responsibilities.
		
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I don't think there is anyone saying a player would ALWAYS score better outside competitions. Just that is can be statistically much more likely their best scores would often be scores outside competitions, as they can't handle the pressure of a competition. I know several people like that, who often play really well socially, but terrible in virtually every comp they play.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think there is anyone saying a player would ALWAYS score better outside competitions. Just that is can be statistically much more likely their best scores would often be scores outside competitions, as they can't handle the pressure of a competition. I know several people like that, who often play really well socially, but terrible in virtually every comp they play.
		
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But that is exactly what I am telling you is happening in this specific case.🤷‍♂️


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## Crow (Jul 13, 2022)

Putting in General Play scores that suit a players intended handicap trajectory is only going to get more common IMHO, people see someone else doing it, realise how easy it is, etc, etc.

You only have to look at America to see how WHS will play out as the years pass.

We're already seeing a noticeable drop off in club competition entries as people "can't see the point of wasting money when I can do it all on an App" and that trend will continue.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jul 13, 2022)

I never knew what to make of this scenario:

Someone I know got into a spot of bother at the club with the members, because he essentially openly admitted to duffing a chip on the 18th on purpose to avoid a handicap cut.

It was the day before he had a knockout match, he entered a supplementary card and as it was on WHS, he knew his handicap could not go up.

However, he played so well that he calculated walking up the 18th that he would end up getting cut 2 shots. He effectively made a 6 instead of a 5, to avoid that happening.
his argument was that basically he wasn’t required to enter a supp score, he did so voluntarily and he could not receive an increase for the match the next day, only a cut. However, he wanted his handicap to come down a shot at a time, and he can’t be accused of manipulating his handicap because if he was, he’d be submitting general play scores to do that (his general play scores were generally good).
my advice; don’t admit anything like that to the members 😂


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## IanM (Jul 13, 2022)

Crow said:



			Putting in General Play scores that suit a players intended handicap trajectory is only going to get more common IMHO, people see someone else doing it, realise how easy it is, etc, etc.

You only have to look at America to see how WHS will play out as the years pass.

We're already seeing a noticeable drop off in club competition entries as people "can't see the point of wasting money when I can do it all on an App" and that trend will continue.
		
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We've got a group of low handicappers who no longer play in the Saturday comps as they don't see any value in handing over a fiver for a comp they can't win!  Our  Div 1 in comps goes up to 10, this doesn't help!  They put their fivers in the hat and play for that between themselves for it.


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## Depreston (Jul 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			We've got a group of low handicappers who no longer play in the Saturday comps as they don't see any value in handing over a fiver for a comp they can't win!  Our  Div 1 in comps goes up to 10, this doesn't help!  They put their fivers in the hat and play for that between themselves for it.
		
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Can see this becoming more common


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## Bdill93 (Jul 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think there is anyone saying a player would ALWAYS score better outside competitions. Just that is can be statistically much more likely their best scores would often be scores outside competitions, as they can't handle the pressure of a competition. I know several people like that, who often play really well socially, but terrible in virtually every comp they play.
		
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I am one of these people....


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## Beezerk (Jul 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Golf is supposed to be one of the most honest sports there is, not playing in that way is just wrong.
		
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Ha ha really?


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## gopher99 (Jul 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			We've got a group of low handicappers who no longer play in the Saturday comps as they don't see any value in handing over a fiver for a comp they can't win!  Our  Div 1 in comps goes up to 10, this doesn't help!  They put their fivers in the hat and play for that between themselves for it.
		
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This is very true, I have got my handicap down to 3.4 and I have no chance in our stableford or swindle comps. Last Sunday I had a pretty decent knock of 36 points, and came last out of our 4ball. There was a 12,19 and 25 handicapper in our group, i just play for fun and enjoy the company of those around me. What it does help me to do is play in some decent open comps, I am hoping to play in open comp at Royal Dornoch in Sept.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 13, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I never knew what to make of this scenario:

Someone I know got into a spot of bother at the club with the members, because he essentially openly admitted to duffing a chip on the 18th on purpose to avoid a handicap cut.

It was the day before he had a knockout match, he entered a supplementary card and as it was on WHS, he knew his handicap could not go up.

However, he played so well that he calculated walking up the 18th that he would end up getting cut 2 shots. He effectively made a 6 instead of a 5, to avoid that happening.
his argument was that basically he wasn’t required to enter a supp score, he did so voluntarily and he could not receive an increase for the match the next day, only a cut. However, he wanted his handicap to come down a shot at a time, and he can’t be accused of manipulating his handicap because if he was, he’d be submitting general play scores to do that (his general play scores were generally good).
my advice; don’t admit anything like that to the members 😂
		
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If admitting manipulating the system on purpose cause you don't like the outcome of your score isn't cheating then I don't know what is. If something like this happened at my club I would've like to see the person suspended and/or disqualified from all comps for some time.


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## Depreston (Jul 13, 2022)

gopher99 said:



			This is very true, I have got my handicap down to 3.4 and I have no chance in our stableford or swindle comps. Last Sunday I had a pretty decent knock of 36 points, and came last out of our 4ball. There was a 12,19 and 25 handicapper in our group, i just play for fun and enjoy the company of those around me. What it does help me to do is play in some decent open comps, I am hoping to play in open comp at Royal Dornoch in Sept.
		
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not quite as low as you but last sat a 26 handicapper shot net 66 as did a 8 handicapper the 8 handicapper shot level par back 9 and was beat on the countback 

i'd have been gutted


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## SteveW86 (Jul 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Ha ha really?
		
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I believe it should be, the game as we play it is essentially self policed. I do accept that there are many people who dont play the game honestly.


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## Beezerk (Jul 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I believe it should be, the game as we play it is essentially self policed. I do accept that there are many people who dont play the game honestly.
		
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Yes, I think honesty is the image actively portrayed by most golfers be it pro or amateur. Got to be honest though, since I took up golf about 8 years ago I’ve never seen such levels of cheating in a sport.


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## woofers (Jul 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			They do but with the My England Golf app there are ways round it. From the point of registering your intent, you only need to wait two hours before you're allowed to submit the final scores. Therefore someone could in theory play most of their round, register in the app around the 14th hole or something, then having stayed for a couple of drinks after the round, enter the card just before they leave the car park.
		
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Orikoru said:



			Whatever you do there will be a way around it, unless there's a human being verifying the start and finish I guess.
		
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My understanding is that a General Play round needs to be attested and verified by a playing partner, wherever it is submitted, be it a card or via an App. So, in the case of registering around the 14th hole, the playing partner is complicit in the ‘deed’, (fraud) by accepting the verification of the score. They should (probably?) know that the intent has to be registered before play commences. So, we do have a human being verifying the start and finish, just not an honest one.


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			My understanding is that a General Play round needs to be attested and verified by a playing partner, wherever it is submitted, be it a card or via an App. So, in the case of registering around the 14th hole, the playing partner is complicit in the ‘deed’, (fraud) by accepting the verification of the score. They should (probably?) know that the intent has to be registered before play commences. So, we do have a human being verifying the start and finish, just not an honest one.
		
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Of course, but they'll just get a mate to do it won't they. Have heard a story on here of someone enlisting an attester who didn't even play with them that day!


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## Springveldt (Jul 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Ha ha really?
		
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Of course. Have you not noticed the amount of "class acts" that play on the PGA Tour each week.


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## Old Colner (Jul 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			My understanding is that a General Play round needs to be attested and verified by a playing partner, wherever it is submitted, be it a card or via an App. So, in the case of registering around the 14th hole, the playing partner is complicit in the ‘deed’, (fraud) by accepting the verification of the score. They should (probably?) know that the intent has to be registered before play commences. So, we do have a human being verifying the start and finish, just not an honest one.
		
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I see a possible scenario where there is no mention of a General Play score being submitted, if all is going well, take out your phone while strolling down the 14th fairway and sign in, then at the end of the round just give your playing partner the old, 'Oh sorry bud, almost forgot can you just attest this score for me, many thanks'.


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## IanM (Jul 13, 2022)

This is old ground.

I can key rounds at my nearest course without even leaving my armchair... all it needs is someone to verify.   I can even sign in using my wife's account and do it myself.

At least the old system required you to play the competition.    My club used to refuse general play cards if they were out of sinc with performance in comps.

All my 20 scores are comps.   As are the 20 before it.  None of my PPs put in cards from general play. Saturday and and Wednesday are qualifying days, anything else is recreational.

The Handicap Police need to sort out the disparity in application of process.   But they won't. (Or can't)

Spookily I recently saw another member who had a nightmare on Saturday,  put in a general play card the following day, for 4 better than handicap.   I wonder if it actually happened?


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## IanM (Jul 13, 2022)

Talking to my wife about this after I posted. 

Ladies Section at her club now insist on a email to the ladies handicap sec of your intention to put a card in.  I wonder if they check the time of email to the starting time that was booked?

Mind you, cheats will cheat.  If they are fiddling handicap,  they're dropping balls in the long grass too.


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## sjw (Jul 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			Talking to my wife about this after I posted.

Ladies Section at her club now insist on a email to the ladies handicap sec of your intention to put a card in.  I wonder if they check the time of email to the starting time that was booked?

Mind you, cheats will cheat.  If they are fiddling handicap,  they're dropping balls in the long grass too. 

Click to expand...

What's to say, at this point, that people even play the round? If they're going round with friends, they either just play and lie about their scores or they don't play at all and just make up a card!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			My understanding is that a General Play round needs to be attested and verified by a playing partner, wherever it is submitted, be it a card or via an App. So, in the case of registering around the 14th hole, the playing partner is complicit in the ‘deed’, (fraud) by accepting the verification of the score. They should (probably?) know that the intent has to be registered before play commences. So, we do have a human being verifying the start and finish, just not an honest one.
		
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The marker doesn't have to verify when the round is pre-registered though. So, the notification might be sent through to the markers phone a few hours after the round. For all they know, the player was just a bit tardy in entering their scores, rather than the real reason being they had to wait as they pre-registered after the round, or a long way through it.


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## Orikoru (Jul 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			This is old ground.

I can key rounds at my nearest course without even leaving my armchair... all it needs is someone to verify.   I can even sign in using my wife's account and do it myself.

At least the old system required you to play the competition.    My club used to refuse general play cards if they were out of sinc with performance in comps.

All my 20 scores are comps.   As are the 20 before it.  None of my PPs put in cards from general play. Saturday and and Wednesday are qualifying days, anything else is recreational.

The Handicap Police need to sort out the disparity in application of process.   But they won't. (Or can't)

Spookily I recently saw another member who had a nightmare on Saturday,  put in a general play card the following day, for 4 better than handicap.   I wonder if it actually happened?
		
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I did put a couple of general play cards in this year as I wanted to get my handicap down, but it didn't really work as even a score of 83 is deemed score differential of 16 at my place. Then I won a competition with 40 points and my handicap didn't even come down from that either. In the old system I'd have come down at least a shot if not two from that, in this system it was about 0.3 and the next day I played again and it just went back up 0.3 again. I've just about given up on it now, no more dicking about with general play cards, I'll just enter the comps when there is one and let my handicap be whatever it is. I've wasted too much energy worrying about it.


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## IanM (Jul 13, 2022)

sjw said:



			What's to say, at this point, that people even play the round? If they're going round with friends, they either just play and lie about their scores or they don't play at all and just make up a card!
		
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I guess the point I was making is that the new system (which does have good bits) has inadvertently also provided an excellent means of fiddling your handicap! (In either direction!)


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## woofers (Jul 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The marker doesn't have to verify when the round is pre-registered though.
		
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I know, but most partners, ‘mates’ etc usually announce that they’re putting in a card before play, so we know why they insist on holing out.
However, I agree that there will always be people trying to manipulate whatever system is implemented by whatever means they can.


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## sjw (Jul 13, 2022)

To be honest I couldn't really care less what other people do with their handicap. When I start putting in cards, which will hopefully be soon, I'll try and put them in fairly regularly and just let my handicap be. I might get annoyed if I lose out in competitions to someone who's obviously sandbagged theirs, but I can't do anything about it. If they need to do that to inflate their ego that sounds like a them problem.


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## D-S (Jul 13, 2022)

I just did a check and of we’ll over 600 registered Handicaps barely 100 had more than 10% of their scores as General Play rounds, this excludes around 20 who had only between 1 and 3 scores on their record all of which were General Play, clearly people just gaining initial h/c.
So General Play scores are not exactly becoming much of a thing here at least.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 13, 2022)

As a first time member of a club this year, I take my handicap seriously only in that I don't cheat as I like it to be a fair reflection of my ability and any improvement. I don't play competitions either as it doesn't really interest me.

Reading some of these stories is hilarious and ultimately, quite sad. Lots of insecure people who see their personal value by the handicap number next to their name.

If they're cheating by manipulating their handicap, I cam only imagine what else they're up to on the course!


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## r0wly86 (Jul 13, 2022)

gopher99 said:



			This is very true, I have got my handicap down to 3.4 and I have no chance in our stableford or swindle comps. Last Sunday I had a pretty decent knock of 36 points, and came last out of our 4ball. There was a 12,19 and 25 handicapper in our group, i just play for fun and enjoy the company of those around me. What it does help me to do is play in some decent open comps, I am hoping to play in open comp at Royal Dornoch in Sept.
		
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I don't think that's anything to do with the WHS though, stablefords are always far more difficult for low handicappers to win. For you to play 3 shots under your handicap you would have to shoot level par which would probably be considered an excellent round for you. A mid or high handicapper 3 under is nothing, especially in stableford where you can chalk off the disaster hole as a double bogey


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## Imurg (Jul 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I just did a check and of we’ll over 600 registered Handicaps barely 100 had more than 10% of their scores as General Play rounds, this excludes around 20 who had only between 1 and 3 scores on their record all of which were General Play, clearly people just gaining initial h/c.
So General Play scores are not exactly becoming much of a thing here at least.
		
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We're not a competition heavy club..the usual monthly and midweek comps but certainly not every day..in fact this week there isn't a comp I could enter at all..Next one is the Medal on 31st....
We get approximately 400-500 general play cards a week....


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## jim8flog (Jul 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've a mate who is not submitting cards at the moment, as he doesn't want his handicap to go up, and he is playing badly. He played with another mate last week, and they all registered for a round. On the 18th, he just said "I'm not submitting this, I'll just say I'm injured".
.
		
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 If they registered via the EG app he will get a penalty score automatically similarly if the registered via the PSI screen the club should be doing the same. 

If he says injury he will still have to submit a card with the scores entered for holes played.


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## jim8flog (Jul 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			We've got a group of low handicappers who no longer play in the Saturday comps as they don't see any value in handing over a fiver for a comp they can't win!  Our  Div 1 in comps goes up to 10, this doesn't help!  They put their fivers in the hat and play for that between themselves for it.
		
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 Where I play when it is a Saturday comp day you can only book in advance if you play in the comp. You can only book the spare spaces on the day of the comp via the Pro shop and not online. There is now one whole regular Saturday group who now play on our 9 hole so as not to go into comps.

Our group has often discussed not going in to Seniors comps because the allocation of prize money is so much in favour of high handicap layers it hardly worth the low handicap ones going in to the comp because the prize money has become so poor.


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## jim8flog (Jul 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I did put a couple of general play cards in this year as I wanted to get my handicap down, but it didn't really work as even a score of 83 is deemed score differential of 16 at my place. Then I won a competition with 40 points and my handicap didn't even come down from that either. In the old system I'd have come down at least a shot if not two from that, in this system it was about 0.3 and the next day I played again and it just went back up 0.3 again. I've just about given up on it now, no more dicking about with general play cards, I'll just enter the comps when there is one and let my handicap be whatever it is. I've wasted too much energy worrying about it.
		
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Without telling us what the course rating v par is that does not make much sense.

Under the old system where I play 40 points would have only got a 0.3 decrease in handicap in some comps or 0.2 for me.


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## banjofred (Jul 13, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			There are various degrees of "cheating" with regards to handicap.
eg: Not playing the the last 4 holes to the best of your ability.
Hard one to prove, but I see blokes doing it when they know they won't be in the prizes and turn a mediocre score into a very bad one, knowing it will keep the handicap high.
Some seem to get far more kicks winning £2 in social golf and bragging about who they beat than doing well in club competitions. 

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I usually turn in a couple of casual plays a week. I tend to stay away from the weekend comps at my new club.....way too many comps and visiting parties. Turned in a good one today.....+5 with a triple bogie on 13....two hooks (the first out of bounds) off the tee that came out of nowhere. I've got a new driver coming.....so I can blame the hooks on my current club (bad club!!)


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## Beezerk (Jul 17, 2022)

Well after all that the guy was a no show 🙉
I asked the assistant pro about him, he sort of confirmed what I’d heard last week. He’s been pulled by EG for submitting dodgy general play cards and quite often puts his name down for comps but doesn’t turn up.
He missed a treat though, both me and my mate played a truly awful brand of golf 😂


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## Aussie Swinger (Jul 18, 2022)

Sorry, wrong thread, thanks Billyboots


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## Billysboots (Jul 18, 2022)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Well, well, well. Does Cam Smith now hold all the Aces? if he was considering LIV, hes just probably put 250 million onto his signing fee, he’s exempt for all majors for the next 5 years, and there ain’t nothing the PGA tour, DP tour can do about it. Oh, and he does have to have ‘missing out on the Ryder cup’ threat hanging over him. Presidents cup ain’t worth Jack. If he goes, I believe pga/Dp house of cards could start tumbling. Just a thought, and also now major season is over, will some of the young guns make the jump?
		
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Wrong thread!

(EDIT: Unless of course the suggestion is Cam Smith won The Open off a dodgy handicap).


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## Aussie Swinger (Jul 18, 2022)

Haha, thanks Billy, no, I think Cams legit, I’ve moved the post, thanks mate


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## Jensen (Jul 18, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Well after all that the guy was a no show 🙉
I asked the assistant pro about him, he sort of confirmed what I’d heard last week. He’s been pulled by EG for submitting dodgy general play cards and quite often puts his name down for comps but doesn’t turn up.
He missed a treat though, both me and my mate played a truly awful brand of golf 😂
		
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Sounds like a lovely member. Bet he’s a real


Beezerk said:



			Well after all that the guy was a no show 🙉
I asked the assistant pro about him, he sort of confirmed what I’d heard last week. He’s been pulled by EG for submitting dodgy general play cards and quite often puts his name down for comps but doesn’t turn up.
He missed a treat though, both me and my mate played a truly awful brand of golf 😂
		
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Sounds like a lovely guy. Bet he’s a real asset to the club 😄


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2022)

I had one at my old club, played off 2 but put in the minimum medal cards a year.
We contested a scratch KO semi and I was never up in the match on the 18th tee
He had a 2 footer to win, normally I would concede but something made me make him putt it.
He missed then messed up the 19th. I quite enjoyed that.

I lost the 36 hole final on the 36th hole after a great match.


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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2022)

Jensen said:



			Sounds like a lovely member. Bet he’s a real


Sounds like a lovely guy. Bet he’s a real asset to the club 😄
		
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His home club is somewhere past your place, I'll give you a massive hint, it's near Souter Lighthouse but it isn't Whitburn


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## Orikoru (Jul 18, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He had a 2 footer to win, normally I would concede but something made me make him putt it.
		
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Why would you concede a match-winning putt?? I never would unless it was like 3 inches away.


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## Jensen (Jul 18, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			His home club is somewhere past your place, I'll give you a massive hint, it's near Souter Lighthouse but it isn't Whitburn 

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Sounds like I’d need to go up the John Reid Road to access it 😉
Man In Black may well have encountered him 🤣🤣


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			His home club is somewhere past your place, I'll give you a massive hint, it's near Souter Lighthouse but it isn't Whitburn 

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Jensen said:



			Sounds like I’d need to go up the John Reid Road to access it 😉
Man In Black may well have encountered him 🤣🤣
		
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I don't think anyone up here will need Bletchley Park to work this one out . Even I got it and it's south of the river.


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## banjofred (Jul 18, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Why would you concede a match-winning putt?? I never would unless it was like 3 inches away.
		
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Heck.....I don't give my *friends* anything over a foot. I'm a bit hard nosed though.......hate gimmies.


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Heck.....I don't give my *friends* anything over a foot. I'm a bit hard nosed though.......hate gimmies.
		
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I've seen my mate putt - he gets nothing at all.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Why would you concede a match-winning putt?? I never would unless it was like 3 inches away.
		
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It's the way I was brought up.
Friendly game played in good spirit I would always concede a 2 footer.
Playing against a numpty.......nae quarter given.


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## Orikoru (Jul 18, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's the way I was brought up.
Friendly game played in good spirit I would always concede a 2 footer.
Playing against a numpty.......nae quarter given.
		
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I get that, but not to actually win the match! It's literally your last hope of not losing at that point that he misses it and you'd just be giving him the win! I think in order to get the win he should at least have to knock a little knee-trembler into the hole, it's not too much to ask.


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## sunshine (Jul 19, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I know... The committee are looking at it for next year - plans to insert some sort of "must have 5 scores made within comps" entrance criteria or something to try and eradicate guys like these entering and then walking over the competition.

Makes a joke of one of the most sought after comps at the club. Theyre in the Semi-finals with ease
		
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My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.


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## hovis (Jul 19, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.
		
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Trouble is the people who this is designed to target are the same people that will just card 8 bad rounds


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## sunshine (Jul 19, 2022)

HampshireHog said:



			But that is exactly what I am telling you is happening in this specific case.🤷‍♂️
		
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I know loads of people who have general play rounds much lower than competition rounds.

I don't bother submitting general play rounds, but my casual golf is often significantly better than comps. I can look like a scratch player or complete beginner from one day to the next.


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## sunshine (Jul 19, 2022)

hovis said:



			Trouble is the people who this is designed to target are the same people that will just card 8 bad rounds
		
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I think it's very hard to eliminate the "active cheats", they will always find a way. But I believe the intention is to reduce the number of "passive cheats", many of who aren't deliberately trying to diddle the system, but instead have a laissez faire approach.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 19, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I know loads of people who have general play rounds much lower than competition rounds.

I don't bother submitting general play rounds, but my casual golf is often significantly better than comps. I can look like a scratch player or complete beginner from one day to the next.
		
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I also know plenty of people who play better in casual golf.  I also know they don’t perform every time they step out onto the course in a casual round, I can accept they might on average return better than they do in a comp but not exclusively return good scores.


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## Billysboots (Jul 19, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.
		
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I think we’ve remained at three counting scores in the rolling 12 month period. I think eight is a little excessive if I’m honest - for all sorts of reasons there are a number of people who won’t achieve that many, unless of course you include general play and 9-hole returns.


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## KenL (Jul 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.
		
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Seems a strange number given that it used to only be 3.


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## D-S (Jul 20, 2022)

5 in the last 12 months is the common number around here. Although this doesn’t stop anybody who is set on manipulating their index upwards, in fact you could say the higher the number the more the opportunity especially if it includes General Play scores.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.
		
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Id be strongly in favour of that!

Match is next week and their handicaps remain totally unchanged. Pure bandits and they need dealing with. Going to walk away with the third most prestigious (and #1 pairs) event at our club  Unless of course a miracle happens


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## Orikoru (Jul 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My club has announced that members will need 8 scores in the last 12 months to enter competitions next year, including the knock outs. Announced now to give people time to get their scores in.
		
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Ours did the same, but there was no grace period, they just sprung it on us. My mate had to put like three cards in in two weeks so avoid us being kicked out of a pairs betterball competition.   But yeah it's 8 cards required, at least 4 of them have to be competition ones. We didn't play many comps in our first year due to Covid and other factors, so I had to top up, but now I'm there I should never fall below that really.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 20, 2022)

Sounds to me like these clubs don't think WHS is working properly.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Sounds to me like these clubs don't think WHS is working properly.
		
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Its not WHS's fault that we have members who have literally only ever submitted 3 cards for their initial handicaps, have never submitted one again - and over 12 months after this initial handicap allocation are still entering pairs comps (which wont effect handicaps).

Playing the system to a tee.

As previously stated - im my case the next round of a matchplay pairs, both lads play of 20+ index's and both shot in the 70's in their last pairs match  

Just outright cheating


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Its not WHS's fault that we have members who have literally only ever submitted 3 cards for their initial handicaps, have never submitted one again - and over 12 months after this initial handicap allocation are still entering pairs comps (which wont effect handicaps).

Playing the system to a tee.

As previously stated - im my case the next round of a matchplay pairs, both lads play of 20+ index's and both shot in the 70's in their last pairs match  

Just outright cheating
		
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That's always been the case unfortunately.

Doesn't matter what is put in place these golfers who think winning is all that matters when playing golf will continue to prosper as they have no respect for the ethos of golf.

Best thing to do is avoid this type of comp altogether or have no expectation of winning.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

saving_par said:



			That's always been the case unfortunately.

Doesn't matter what is put in place these golfers who think winning is all that matters when playing golf will continue to prosper as they have no respect for the ethos of golf.

Best thing to do is avoid this type of comp altogether or have no expectation of winning.
		
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Or set entrance criteria of a certain amount of scores within a time frame


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## apj0524 (Jul 20, 2022)

Winning score in a Local Clubs open week on Monday 48 points playing off 18 from a member, now I bet that was popular with the visitors


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## KenL (Jul 20, 2022)

apj0524 said:



			Winning score in a Local Clubs open week on Monday 48 points playing off 18 from a member, now I bet that was popular with the visitors 

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Having stableford opens instead of "proper" scoring is definitely a bad idea.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jul 20, 2022)

Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score. 
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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Ultimately theyre cheating themselves out of shots and will become irrelevant in competitive play.. Vanity caps will never go away. 

However, If I was off 3.8 and saw people cheating the system to bring down their handicap to single digits it would probably annoy me too... You worked hard to get there scoring in comps - theyre just cherry picking great social rounds...


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Ultimately theyre cheating themselves out of shots and will become irrelevant in competitive play.. Vanity caps will never go away.

However, If I was off 3.8 and saw people cheating the system to bring down their handicap to single digits it would probably annoy me too... You worked hard to get there scoring in comps - theyre just cherry picking great social rounds...
		
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You’re very right, it’s only gonna hurt them in competitions and ultimately he’s doing himself no favours.

What next? Handing in a scorecard at Mr Pirate’s 9 hole adventure course?


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## gopher99 (Jul 20, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			You’re very right, it’s only gonna hurt them in competitions and ultimately he’s doing himself no favours.

What next? Handing in a scorecard at Mr Pirate’s 9 hole adventure course?
		
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I best rip up those 2 cards I was going to put in this weekend.😀

https://www.hastingsadventuregolf.com/


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## Biggleswade Blue (Jul 21, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Ultimately theyre cheating themselves out of shots and will become irrelevant in competitive play.. Vanity caps will never go away.

However, If I was off 3.8 and saw people cheating the system to bring down their handicap to single digits it would probably annoy me too... You worked hard to get there scoring in comps - theyre just cherry picking great social rounds...
		
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I'm in an improvement phase - and got told off by an opponent in a match a few weeks ago for my handicap not being low enough - even though we only won 1 up on the last.  I'm really keen to get ot down (28 at the moment) I've been submitting 9 and 18 hole general play rounds every opportunity I get - and follow the rules to the letter (pre-register, score goes in good or bad, only do it when playing with a proper player who will attest my score) - as that is bringing it down more quickly than if I waited until I was free to play in competitition.  Apparently I'm in the top 5% of number of cards submitted this year at the club.  My oponent told me it was not right and that I shouldn't have those GP rounds but should have more competitions (6 of my 20 are competitions).  Of course if I did that, first, I would need to take more time of work to play when comps are on and second I'm more likely to get a silly good score in a comp and upset everyone there (been there, done that, rubbish feeling that completely tainted the win and, to be honest, has put me off comps for a bit).  Not quite sure what I ought to do.

My partner in the match pointed out that if I did what was suggested, and/or we'd played the match a few weeks ago, I'd have had an extra 4 shots!  there was not much response to that, nor to my observation that our winning the match 1 up on the last is perhaps an indication that the handicap system was working pretty well.


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## Neilds (Jul 21, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			I'm in an improvement phase - and got told off by an opponent in a match a few weeks ago for my handicap not being low enough - even though we only won 1 up on the last.  I'm really keen to get ot down (28 at the moment) I've been submitting 9 and 18 hole general play rounds every opportunity I get - and follow the rules to the letter (pre-register, score goes in good or bad, only do it when playing with a proper player who will attest my score) - as that is bringing it down more quickly than if I waited until I was free to play in competitition.  Apparently I'm in the top 5% of number of cards submitted this year at the club.  My oponent told me it was not right and that I shouldn't have those GP rounds but should have more competitions (6 of my 20 are competitions).  Of course if I did that, first, I would need to take more time of work to play when comps are on and second I'm more likely to get a silly good score in a comp and upset everyone there (been there, done that, rubbish feeling that completely tainted the win and, to be honest, has put me off comps for a bit).  Not quite sure what I ought to do.

My partner in the match pointed out that if I did what was suggested, and/or we'd played the match a few weeks ago, I'd have had an extra 4 shots!  there was not much response to that, nor to my observation that our winning the match 1 up on the last is perhaps an indication that the handicap system was working pretty well.
		
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You are doing nothing wrong, some people will look for any excuse to blame the opponent for their own bad play 
I wonder what the result would be if we did a poll on here which asked if people thought we should enter more GP cards or more comp cards to reflect a true handicap.  I bet the results would be very split


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## KenL (Jul 21, 2022)

It was highly rude of your opponent to comment on your handicap DURING the match.  That would never have been done if you were losing.


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## chrisd (Jul 21, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			I'm in an improvement phase - and got told off by an opponent in a match a few weeks ago for my handicap not being low enough - even though we only won 1 up on the last.  I'm really keen to get ot down (28 at the moment) I've been submitting 9 and 18 hole general play rounds every opportunity I get - and follow the rules to the letter (pre-register, score goes in good or bad, only do it when playing with a proper player who will attest my score) - as that is bringing it down more quickly than if I waited until I was free to play in competitition.  Apparently I'm in the top 5% of number of cards submitted this year at the club.  My oponent told me it was not right and that I shouldn't have those GP rounds but should have more competitions (6 of my 20 are competitions).  Of course if I did that, first, I would need to take more time of work to play when comps are on and second I'm more likely to get a silly good score in a comp and upset everyone there (been there, done that, rubbish feeling that completely tainted the win and, to be honest, has put me off comps for a bit).  Not quite sure what I ought to do.

My partner in the match pointed out that if I did what was suggested, and/or we'd played the match a few weeks ago, I'd have had an extra 4 shots!  there was not much response to that, nor to my observation that our winning the match 1 up on the last is perhaps an indication that the handicap system was working pretty well.
		
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Sour grapes by your opponent, if you only won ( or lost) by one hole then it would suggest to me that the handicaps were pretty much spot on. The idea of handicaps is that players of all abilities should be able to play each other fairly and competitively,  and this is what you did!


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## Biggleswade Blue (Jul 21, 2022)

KenL said:



			It was highly rude of your opponent to comment on your handicap DURING the match.  That would never have been done if you were losing.
		
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We were 2 down with 3 to play.  We'd won 16, and the comment was made on 17th tee after I hit a great drive.  To be honest, I am not a particularly competitive person and up to then had enjoyed the match, but the comments made me really want to win.

In the next round, our oponents commented in a very good natured way at the start that they had their work cut out in view of my handicap, but were generous and good company all the way round irrespective of who was winning.  We lost 2 down after 18.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			I'm in an improvement phase - and got told off by an opponent in a match a few weeks ago for my handicap not being low enough - even though we only won 1 up on the last.  I'm really keen to get ot down (28 at the moment) I've been submitting 9 and 18 hole general play rounds every opportunity I get - and follow the rules to the letter (pre-register, score goes in good or bad, only do it when playing with a proper player who will attest my score) - as that is bringing it down more quickly than if I waited until I was free to play in competitition.  Apparently I'm in the top 5% of number of cards submitted this year at the club.  My oponent told me it was not right and that I shouldn't have those GP rounds but should have more competitions (6 of my 20 are competitions).  Of course if I did that, first, I would need to take more time of work to play when comps are on and second I'm more likely to get a silly good score in a comp and upset everyone there (been there, done that, rubbish feeling that completely tainted the win and, to be honest, has put me off comps for a bit).  Not quite sure what I ought to do.

My partner in the match pointed out that if I did what was suggested, and/or we'd played the match a few weeks ago, I'd have had an extra 4 shots!  there was not much response to that, nor to my observation that our winning the match 1 up on the last is perhaps an indication that the handicap system was working pretty well.
		
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And that's why to a degree i'd always prefer not to consider any player a bandit. You've found the game, tried to improve, done everything right and other peoples attitude taint the matchplay win but also a competition win. People may say they say bandit in jest, potentially true with close friends, but i wish more would say 45pts, great playing.

I wonder what the standard deviation (think that's the term) would be of a 100 people playing with correct handicaps on a given day. Surely the odds with that many are that someone will always play one round significantly above their standard rounds on a given day. I mean you see the variations in pro golf when they're all exceptional.

Actual cheating, so deliberate card manipulation or breaking rules on the course is different but i think you need actual evidence not just someone scored 45pts.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 21, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			We were 2 down with 3 to play.  We'd won 16, and the comment was made on 17th tee after I hit a great drive.  To be honest, I am not a particularly competitive person and up to then had enjoyed the match, but the comments made me really want to win.

In the next round, our oponents commented in a very good natured way at the start that they had their work cut out in view of my handicap, but were generous and good company all the way round irrespective of who was winning.  We lost 2 down after 18.
		
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Yeah, there is a difference about calling someone a bandit, but in a jokey good natured way, and accusing someone of having too high a handicap and somehow following bad practices to keep a higher handicap.

Few people can play every competition, and some clubs only have 2 to 4 competitions per month for the main club. So, if players didn't bother putting in general play rounds, any improving player would take an age to come down, and in the meantime be able to shoot great scores in match play and Opens. This is the entire point of permitting general play rounds, and making them easier to submit. So, you are doing the right thing.

If you were 2 down with 3 to play, I wonder if they were thinking your handicap was too high after 15 holes, or if you hadn't managed to catch them in last 3 holes, if he'd have had the same opinion?


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## Bdill93 (Jul 21, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			I'm in an improvement phase - and got told off by an opponent in a match a few weeks ago for my handicap not being low enough - even though we only won 1 up on the last.  I'm really keen to get ot down (28 at the moment) I've been submitting 9 and 18 hole general play rounds every opportunity I get - and follow the rules to the letter (pre-register, score goes in good or bad, only do it when playing with a proper player who will attest my score) - as that is bringing it down more quickly than if I waited until I was free to play in competitition.  Apparently I'm in the top 5% of number of cards submitted this year at the club.  My oponent told me it was not right and that I shouldn't have those GP rounds but should have more competitions (6 of my 20 are competitions).  Of course if I did that, first, I would need to take more time of work to play when comps are on and second I'm more likely to get a silly good score in a comp and upset everyone there (been there, done that, rubbish feeling that completely tainted the win and, to be honest, has put me off comps for a bit).  Not quite sure what I ought to do.

My partner in the match pointed out that if I did what was suggested, and/or we'd played the match a few weeks ago, I'd have had an extra 4 shots!  there was not much response to that, nor to my observation that our winning the match 1 up on the last is perhaps an indication that the handicap system was working pretty well.
		
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Id say youre doing the right thing!

My issues comes with people who do not submit cards at all really. If you're playing a few comps a month, then no need for GP scores in my mind (but crack on if you wish to), if you cant play many comps then GP scores are fine too - its all about keeping the handicap accurate. 

Manipulating it down or worse, never submitting any form of card - which ive posted about somewhere in this thread - is what does annoy me!


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## Orikoru (Jul 21, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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It does seem silly. I can understand if someone does it once when they feel like an absolute bandit with a handicap that's too high. But if you're chasing some dreamy low handicap I just can't see the point. I've had a few 79s and that when not putting cards in lately, so I could have done as you described if I was that desperate. But the chance of me doing well in competition for the next 6 months would be out the window. The point of a handicap is to make you competitive in competitions I always thought. If you can't play to it or you're not even playing comps, or both, then the handicap number is pretty worthless.


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## banjofred (Jul 21, 2022)

I've always tried to stay away from Senior type team matchplay (and Opens of various kinds). One reason is because I've heard so many stories about people manipulating their handicaps to try and win.....and the other is because I have a fairly lowish handicap for being 65 (6.8) and feel like I can't really help the team much since I'm giving so many shots to others I play with. If I want to play comps I try and stick to just regular Medal style events. Just me against the golf course.....the golf course doesn't have feelings, so I'm not overly worried about hurting it's feelings.....it's always my feelings that get hurt


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## sunshine (Jul 21, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I think we’ve remained at three counting scores in the rolling 12 month period. I think eight is a little excessive if I’m honest - for all sorts of reasons there are a number of people who won’t achieve that many, unless of course you include general play and 9-hole returns.
		
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The 8 cards can include general play rounds, and can be at any course.


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## Backsticks (Jul 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I think we’ve remained at three counting scores in the rolling 12 month period. I think eight is a little excessive if I’m honest - for all sorts of reasons there are a number of people who won’t achieve that many, unless of course you include general play and 9-hole returns.
		
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If you cant put in 8 counting competition cards 8 in 12 months, then I do feel there isnt enough of a basis to expect to play in competitions. HC has to be representative. If not putting in 8 at least - then someone probably doesnt need a handicap in the first place.
One change in the WHS i would like to see, is the return of competition handicap. Protect those who compete regularly from those who dont, but still let those who dont, have a handicap for their non competition reasons : personal target, being able to say they have one, knowing they can upgrade it quickly to a comp handicap if they do want to get into competition golf, etc.


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## Billysboots (Jul 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If you cant put in 8 counting competition cards 8 in 12 months, then I do feel there isnt enough of a basis to expect to play in competitions. HC has to be representative. If not putting in 8 at least - then someone probably doesnt need a handicap in the first place.
One change in the WHS i would like to see, is the return of competition handicap. Protect those who compete regularly from those who dont, but still let those who dont, have a handicap for their non competition reasons : personal target, being able to say they have one, knowing they can upgrade it quickly to a comp handicap if they do want to get into competition golf, etc.
		
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That is precisely why many clubs, mine included, have introduced a local rule requiring three competition returns in the preceding 12 months to allow members to win competitions. If they don’t have those three returns they can still play competitions, they merely can’t win them. That’s no different to how it was prior to WHS.

Why, then, do you advocate eight? That’s not a “return” to how things used to be, but a considerable change. There are all sorts of reasons that members cannot return eight competition cards in a 12 month rolling period. Family pressures, shift work, and the fact that many clubs don’t run competitions every weekend, and don’t run them at all from the end of October until early April. If you insist on eight that will rule a lot of members out of competitions entirely and create exclusivity.


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## Backache (Jul 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Why, then, do you advocate eight? That’s not a “return” to how things used to be, but a considerable change. There are all sorts of reasons that members cannot return eight competition cards in a 12 month rolling period. Family pressures, shift work, and the fact that many clubs don’t run competitions every weekend, and don’t run them at all from the end of October until early April. If you insist on eight that will rule a lot of members out of competitions entirely and create exclusivity.
		
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I suspect eight would kill off handicap competitions in many clubs as the number of players able to regularly play eight non matchplay comps per year is small compared to most membership  so the number able to enter each comp falls . So demand for competitions fall so people are able to enter fewer.


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## Springveldt (Jul 22, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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While it's abusing the system in the end they are only hurting themselves so I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's the guys that inflate their handicaps to win comps that are cheating the whole field that I don't like.

Someone having a vanity handicap just so they can say "I'm off x.x" to people who probably don't really care anyway, I'm not bothered by them tbh.

I guess it could be an issue if you are a really low player in the scratch area and people are manipulating their handicaps to get into better County or Open events and cheating proper handicapped players out of a spot but I'd imagine they will soon be found out.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 22, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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That is so disappointing and annoying. I play 20/25 competition a per annum and this week was the first time ever that I had entered a Supplementary Card.
I was impressed by The System in there had to be an attester. Added to that I had to send a message to the attested as he needed to confirm my score.

My question would be to ask him who had attested his score and Depending upon his reply consider mentioning to The Handicap Secretary at your Club.

He is doing himself no favours having a false handicap and questions need to be asked as who attested his score.


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## Crazyface (Jul 22, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Heck.....I don't give my *friends* anything over a foot. I'm a bit hard nosed though.......hate gimmies.
		
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I don't do gummies full stop. Why not? To quote my wife here .." isn't the object of the game to put the ball in the hole". 
And that everyone is why no one should ever give gimmies. It's how the game is played


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## Crazyface (Jul 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I think we’ve remained at three counting scores in the rolling 12 month period. I think eight is a little excessive if I’m honest - for all sorts of reasons there are a number of people who won’t achieve that many, unless of course you include general play and 9-hole returns.
		
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It says 8 scores not 8 scores in competition. Easy to do this.


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## Springveldt (Jul 22, 2022)

Backache said:



			I suspect eight would kill off handicap competitions in many clubs as the number of players able to regularly play eight non matchplay comps per year is small compared to most membership  so the number able to enter each comp falls . So demand for competitions fall so people are able to enter fewer.
		
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Is that through personal choice or lack of competitions held by the club? At mine we have a board comp most Saturdays from May till the end of September (and a sweep in April and October), we have a Sunday, Tuesday and Wednesday sweep. First Wednesday of the month is the monthly medal the other 3 or 4 as Stableford. The seniors have a comp on Thursday and then there is the Friday Night Nine's comp that runs for 20 weeks as well. More than enough comps to enter.

99% of my scores are in competitions as I play on a Saturday and Wednesday and always enter the comp. I very rarely get time to play a general round.


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## Crazyface (Jul 22, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Ultimately theyre cheating themselves out of shots and will become irrelevant in competitive play.. Vanity caps will never go away.

However, If I was off 3.8 and saw people cheating the system to bring down their handicap to single digits it would probably annoy me too... You worked hard to get there scoring in comps - theyre just cherry picking great social rounds...
		
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Why would you do this anyway? I don't get it🤔


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## Billysboots (Jul 22, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score. 
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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That is exactly the situation with the guy at ours which I referred to earlier in this thread. And he is getting a mate to attest his supplementary scores even when they don’t play together.

It’s becoming clear now what it’s all about. He is desperate to play representative golf, and also to run teams at our club, as he did at his last place. People are rapidly sussing him out, and one or two are now starting to do some digging at the club he left six months ago to find out why he moved.

His handicap is three strokes better than mine and I can say, without hesitation, there is no way he is a 6 handicap. No way on this earth.


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## Billysboots (Jul 22, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Is that through personal choice or lack of competitions held by the club? At mine we have a board comp most Saturdays from May till the end of September (and a sweep in April and October), we have a Sunday, Tuesday and Wednesday sweep. First Wednesday of the month is the monthly medal the other 3 or 4 as Stableford. The seniors have a comp on Thursday and then there is the Friday Night Nine's comp that runs for 20 weeks as well. More than enough comps to enter.

99% of my scores are in competitions as I play on a Saturday and Wednesday and always enter the comp. I very rarely get time to play a general round.
		
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We run a number of pairs and team events in addition to singles. In the event there was ever a directive from EG that eight qualifying competitions needed to be played in a rolling 12 month period (it’ll never happen, by the way), then those pairs and team events would have to go.

As I said above, with family pressures, weekend working and so on, it is easy to see why so many would struggle to maintain that level of competitive golf.


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## Billysboots (Jul 22, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			It says 8 scores not 8 scores in competition. Easy to do this.
		
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I was replying directly to a comment advocating 8 scores from qualifying competitions. Not so easy.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If you cant put in 8 counting competition cards 8 in 12 months, then I do feel there isnt enough of a basis to expect to play in competitions. HC has to be representative. If not putting in 8 at least - then someone probably doesnt need a handicap in the first place.
One change in the WHS i would like to see, is the return of competition handicap. Protect those who compete regularly from those who dont, but still let those who dont, have a handicap for their non competition reasons : personal target, being able to say they have one, knowing they can upgrade it quickly to a comp handicap if they do want to get into competition golf, etc.
		
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As others say, 8 would be harsh. Pretty extreme in fact. At our club, the only competitions (unless you are a Senior or Lady) are held at weekends. So, if you have a golfer who works at weekends, then you all but rule them out of playing in competitions ever. When they do get a weekend free, they may well want to spend it with family. So, very rarely, they may finally get the chance to play in a competition, and you'd be telling them they do not qualify the entry requirements. Several of the guys in my group maybe only play 4 or 5 competitions a year (some less), although they do submit a lot more cards as they can play sociably outside the competition periods.

The other issue is, what defines a competition? Many clubs now have informal role ups, not really run by the club. Players can turn up, groups sorted on the morning, and then the scores are put on the system. At my club, there is a fiddle that goes out every Thursday, and scores put on the system. Would a club define this as a competition, or are we talking official club competitions where prises are won and presented at Presentation Evening?


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## banjofred (Jul 22, 2022)

Since joining the new club, I've only played in one Medal (April). I've turned in 19 casual cards. Lots of other times I haven't bothered putting in a card. If the rules changed so it had to be 5 (or 8...whatever) *comp scores*, I'd play more comps. Almost everybody who plays regularly can fit in 8 comps.


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## Springveldt (Jul 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			We run a number of pairs and team events in addition to singles. In the event there was ever a directive from EG that eight qualifying competitions needed to be played in a rolling 12 month period (it’ll never happen, by the way), then those pairs and team events would have to go.

As I said above, with family pressures, weekend working and so on, it is easy to see why so many would struggle to maintain that level of competitive golf.
		
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I think we have 2 pairs comps and 2 invitation days on Saturdays so that removed 4 Saturdays from May-Sept that aren't single comps. All other Saturdays are comps.

As I said we also have sweeps on Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday and a 9 hole comp on Friday. At my place there is really no excuse for not playing in 8 comps per year. Maybe your course needs to put on more competitions?

The Sunday and Wednesday sweep are usually well supported. We had 56 people play on Sunday and 87 in the Wednesday one this week. The Tuesday one was a new one for this year and I don't think it's that well supported. 

I call these comps but they aren't "official" club competitions, no name on the board or anything. I think they are called "Pro Sweeps" but you go into the Pro shop, pay your £4, get a card with your name printed on etc.


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## RichA (Jul 22, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Why would you do this anyway? I don't get it🤔
		
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Some people at our place seem to get more pleasure from scoring 30 points in a comp and complaining that a high handicapper won again than they do from actually winning.
The same people tend to be the ones who EG low midweek scores that cut their HI while playing with people you've never heard of.


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## Backache (Jul 22, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Is that through personal choice or lack of competitions held by the club? At mine we have a board comp most Saturdays from May till the end of September (and a sweep in April and October), we have a Sunday, Tuesday and Wednesday sweep. First Wednesday of the month is the monthly medal the other 3 or 4 as Stableford. The seniors have a comp on Thursday and then there is the Friday Night Nine's comp that runs for 20 weeks as well. More than enough comps to enter.

99% of my scores are in competitions as I play on a Saturday and Wednesday and always enter the comp. I very rarely get time to play a general round.
		
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There are clearly some people including yourself who can play in a lot of comps and good on you I'm not criticising you.
But for many in full time employment weekends are the only practical times for comps and family and other commitments eat into those weekends.
My kids are now grown up and I work part time but a couple of years ago there would have been no way I could manage 8 stroke play comps a year. Now it is probably around what I will play and I feel  I play quite a bit of golf.


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## Depreston (Jul 22, 2022)

45 points won the midweek stableford

top 10 consisted of 8+ 20-30 handicappers a 18 and a 7


95 points took the win at Dinsdale in the Team Open we played in on sat 2 of the best 4 scores counting


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## Springveldt (Jul 22, 2022)

Backache said:



			There are clearly some people including yourself who can play in a lot of comps and good on you I'm not criticising you.
But for many in full time employment weekends are the only practical times for comps and family and other commitments eat into those weekends.
My kids are now grown up and I work part time but a couple of years ago there would have been no way I could manage 8 stroke play comps a year. Now it is probably around what I will play and I feel  I play quite a bit of golf.
		
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I get it as I've got a full time job (software engineer) which can sometime require lots of hours, 2 kids, one of which is very demanding due to him being autistic and having a learning disability. I know I'm lucky to get in 2 rounds per week and many don't get that time. I went a few years where I could only get out on a Saturday morning and had to be home by 1PM.

What I was saying though is that maybe my club is the exception but we have so many club run competitions be it the Saturday board competition or the Pro sweep that is run three time a week that at my course there is ample opportunity to play in a competition even if you work weekends. If I was unable to get 8 competition rounds in in a year I'd maybe be asking myself if my membership was worth it.


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## Beezerk (Jul 22, 2022)

Depreston said:



			45 points won the midweek stableford

top 10 consisted of 8+ 20-30 handicappers a 18 and a 7


95 points took the win at Dinsdale in the Team Open we played in on sat 2 of the best 4 scores counting
		
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We had a comp last Saturday, guy with 48 points went home thinking it was in the bag, lad came in with 49 points 😬
Both mid teen handicappers playing almost bogey free golf 🤔
I shot 39 points in a comp the day after and wasn’t even in the top 10 😳


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## Patster1969 (Jul 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			We had a comp last Saturday, guy with 48 points went home thinking it was in the bag, lad came in with 49 points 😬
Both mid teen handicappers playing almost bogey free golf 🤔
I shot 39 points in a comp the day after and wasn’t even in the top 10 😳
		
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Similar, 38 points - I was 15th


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## D-S (Jul 22, 2022)

I don’t understand why insisting that someone must put at least 8 General Play scores in the previous 12 months would in any way stop someone manipulating their handicap upwards. All it does is give them more opportunity to do so.


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## RichA (Jul 22, 2022)

D-S said:



			I don’t understand why insisting that someone must put at least 8 General Play scores in the previous 12 months would in any way stop someone manipulating their handicap upwards. All it does is give them more opportunity to do so.
		
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I've stopped EGing social rounds because they make my HI go up and it looks suspicious. Subconsciously, I just play better when it feels like it matters.


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## IanM (Jul 22, 2022)

Played with one this week.  Handicap in the 20s.  Absolutely no way.  

Shoots the lights out in Pairs Comps, plays rubbish in medals.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 22, 2022)

Depreston said:



			45 points won the midweek stableford

top 10 consisted of 8+ 20-30 handicappers a 18 and a 7


95 points took the win at Dinsdale in the Team Open we played in on sat 2 of the best 4 scores counting
		
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I played in one of their opens a few years ago. A pretty daft score won that day as well. From memory the prize money is quite sizeable.................🙄


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 23, 2022)

IanM said:



			Played with one this week.  Handicap in the 20s.  Absolutely no way. 

Shoots the lights out in Pairs Comps, plays rubbish in medals.
		
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To be fair I have a mate like this, plays off the same handicap as me (11ish). But is a far better player.

Unfortunately he's mentally useless and one bad hole in a medal or a couple in stableford and his head goes and he starts taking stupid risks and rushing putts etc.

In a pairs or team comp though, where those bad holes don't matter, he is deadly.

Its an odd one as he never really threatens in singles so wouldn't say he's a bandit or manipulates his handicap for the purpose of winning.


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## RRidges (Jul 23, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			To be fair I have a mate like this, plays off the same handicap as me (11ish). But is a far better player.

Unfortunately he's mentally useless and one bad hole in a medal or a couple in stableford and his head goes and he starts taking stupid risks and rushing putts etc.

In a pairs or team comp though, where those bad holes don't matter, he is deadly.

Its an odd one as he never really threatens in singles so wouldn't say he's a bandit or manipulates his handicap for the purpose of winning.
		
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He needs a caddy!
Take an occasional comp off and caddy for him and sort him out. 
As Golf often reflects life, it might help his fragile attitude in far more important areas too.
Oh and get him to read Bob Rotella's books, especially 'Golf is not a game of perfect'.


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## IanM (Jul 24, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Soon to play against 2 in pairs matchplay..

Both guys HI's are above 20 - no cards in the system for over 12 months and yet both shot in the 70's in their last match against two people I know well and trust.... We're going to get battered
		
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We had a pair of them at my first Club.  They were Seniors.   Won every match play going but only every put in the minimum of qualifying cards.   They got a savage Rule 19 cut and left club immediately.   They joined one 40 miles away and started as new handicappers.  Our sec wrote to the other club who reinstated their former handicap.  Not sure what happened after that. 

The prizes make it too tempting for some.  Maybe the amateur limits on handicap events need looking at


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 24, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			That is exactly the situation with the guy at ours which I referred to earlier in this thread. *And he is getting a mate to attest his supplementary scores even when they don’t play together*.

It’s becoming clear now what it’s all about. He is desperate to play representative golf, and also to run teams at our club, as he did at his last place. People are rapidly sussing him out, and one or two are now starting to do some digging at the club he left six months ago to find out why he moved.

His handicap is three strokes better than mine and I can say, without hesitation, there is no way he is a 6 handicap. No way on this earth.
		
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Well they are both cheating.

Regardingnplaying for the Club. If his handicap should be 9 and say 5 is needed to play representative golf he will/ should lose matches against other Clubs.

He seems to be going to embarrass himself sooner rather than later


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## Billysboots (Jul 24, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Well they are both cheating.

Regardingnplaying for the Club. If his handicap should be 9 and say 5 is needed to play representative golf he will/ should lose matches against other Clubs.

He seems to be going to embarrass himself sooner rather than later
		
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Agreed on all points.


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## slicer79 (Jul 24, 2022)

One thing I've always said about anyone who manipulates their handicap it must be no fun. Before you step on the first tee you know that you're going to put in a poor score or whatever for an increase. 
Part of a game for me is the unknown and on the day things are going well trying to keep the score going


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## Imurg (Jul 24, 2022)

Reading this thread, and others of a similar vein, I feel the authorities have failed in their attempts to edcucate everyone about WHS.
It seems there are plenty of people who have little to no idea how the systems work and that's poor.
We rarely get winning scores in the 40s let alone 46/48...OK, a senior comp was won with 44 this week but that's definitely an outlier
If people are only putting in comp cards then, as long as they're playing enough then their handicap will be reasonably accurate.
If they're only putting in 4 or 5 cards a year then it's  not going to be.
Why are so many seemingly afraid of General Play cards..?
If you've been educated and follow the rules it's the same as a competition without a prize - which most people don't get anyway.
Ellesborough gets between 400 and 500 general play cards a week........I probably account for 4 or 5 of those..and that's on top of the comp cards.
We play to the rules, we try to play our best and we try to score as well as we can.
We don't put a card in every single time we play but, for the most part, we do. We still have a laugh, we still chat, we still take the proverbial......
As a result our handicaps are about as accurate as you can get...and that's why we don't often get winning scores in the mid to high 40s.
If I was still at Whipsnade I'd be putting in 5 cards a year without general play cards because that's how many comps midweek member had access to...and the old Supplementary card system could take a month to register
I've put in 63 cards this year, probably 7 or 8 comps, the rest or GP.
I'm confident my index reflects my current form....


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## AliMc (Jul 24, 2022)

KenL said:



			Having stableford opens instead of "proper" scoring is definitely a bad idea.
		
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100% correct Ken imho, I would never consider playing in an open that was based on stableford


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## Billysboots (Jul 24, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Reading this thread, and others of a similar vein, I feel the authorities have failed in their attempts to edcucate everyone about WHS.
It seems there are plenty of people who have little to no idea how the systems work and that's poor.
We rarely get winning scores in the 40s let alone 46/48...OK, a senior comp was won with 44 this week but that's definitely an outlier
If people are only putting in comp cards then, as long as they're playing enough then their handicap will be reasonably accurate.
If they're only putting in 4 or 5 cards a year then it's  not going to be.
Why are so many seemingly afraid of General Play cards..?
If you've been educated and follow the rules it's the same as a competition without a prize - which most people don't get anyway.
Ellesborough gets between 400 and 500 general play cards a week........I probably account for 4 or 5 of those..and that's on top of the comp cards.
We play to the rules, we try to play our best and we try to score as well as we can.
We don't put a card in every single time we play but, for the most part, we do. We still have a laugh, we still chat, we still take the proverbial......
As a result our handicaps are about as accurate as you can get...and that's why we don't often get winning scores in the mid to high 40s.
If I was still at Whipsnade I'd be putting in 5 cards a year without general play cards because that's how many comps midweek member had access to...and the old Supplementary card system could take a month to register
I've put in 63 cards this year, probably 7 or 8 comps, the rest or GP.
I'm confident my index reflects my current form....
		
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^^^^ This is exactly how a handicapping system should work, and is the only true way to maintain the integrity of competition golf, as all of the entrants will be playing off a handicap which reflects their current ability. I, too, put regular additional cards in.

Too many don’t. We have a guy in our roll up who is currently unable to win competitions as he has only returned one card in the last year. That’s a nonsense, as I know he plays most weekends and at least twice in the week. For him, it’s a vanity thing as his form has been on the slide for 18 months, but when he eventually does play a comp he now has absolutely no hope of winning it, or even being remotely competitive.


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Reading this thread, and others of a similar vein, I feel the authorities have failed in their attempts to edcucate everyone about WHS.
It seems there are plenty of people who have little to no idea how the systems work and that's poor.
We rarely get winning scores in the 40s let alone 46/48...OK, a senior comp was won with 44 this week but that's definitely an outlier
If people are only putting in comp cards then, as long as they're playing enough then their handicap will be reasonably accurate.
If they're only putting in 4 or 5 cards a year then it's  not going to be.
Why are so many seemingly afraid of General Play cards..?
If you've been educated and follow the rules it's the same as a competition without a prize - which most people don't get anyway.
*Ellesborough gets between 400 and 500 general play cards a week........I probably account for 4 or 5 of those..and that's on top of the comp cards.*
We play to the rules, we try to play our best and we try to score as well as we can.
We don't put a card in every single time we play but, for the most part, we do. We still have a laugh, we still chat, we still take the proverbial......
As a result our handicaps are about as accurate as you can get...and that's why we don't often get winning scores in the mid to high 40s.
If I was still at Whipsnade I'd be putting in 5 cards a year without general play cards because that's how many comps midweek member had access to...and the old Supplementary card system could take a month to register
I've put in 63 cards this year, probably 7 or 8 comps, the rest or GP.
I'm confident my index reflects my current form....
		
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Did you mean a month?? Otherwise this doesn't add up with what you said at the end. I was going to argue a handicap isn't that accurate if it only reflects your last 3-4 weeks play. 😂


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 25, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Did you mean a month?? Otherwise this doesn't add up with what you said at the end. I was going to argue a handicap isn't that accurate if it only reflects your last 3-4 weeks play. 😂
		
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But it does if you consider the fact that the new system is more a reflection of form than outright ability.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 25, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			But it does if you consider the fact that the new system is more a reflection of form than outright ability.
		
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Or current weather conditions...🤣


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			But it does if you consider the fact that the new system is more a reflection of form than outright ability.
		
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I think there's a line where you can put too many cards in though. As I say, if it's only reflecting your last 3 weeks form it could fluctuate wildly. For the last few months I've had 3 or 4 cards in per month which I think is about right. I don't agree that your handicap _should_ only reflect your recent form, as that only leaves more scope for banditry. Based on the amount of cards I'm putting in now, my handicap will be based over about 6 months play which I think is fair.


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## Billysboots (Jul 25, 2022)

I think it’s in South Africa that you have to submit every card for handicap purposes. There will doubtless be allowances in there for playing incomplete rounds etc, but the gist is all cards must be handed in. I suspect other countries will be similar.

It’s always amazed me the number of golfers in this country, regular players with societies who are members at clubs, who don’t have handicaps.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 25, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I think it’s in South Africa that you have to submit every card for handicap purposes. There will doubtless be allowances in there for playing incomplete rounds etc, but the gist is all cards must be handed in. I suspect other countries will be similar.

It’s always amazed me the number of golfers in this country, regular players with societies who are members at clubs, who don’t have handicaps.
		
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Isn't that what the US handicap system is pretty well known for, that all scores should be submitted? When golfers don't finish a hole, they just put in their "most likely score"


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Isn't that what the US handicap system is pretty well known for, that all scores should be submitted? When golfers don't finish a hole, they just put in their "most likely score"
		
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Put me down for a 72 gross please.

Most likely score, sorry thats a bit of a joke, who knows what happens before holing out in the 'real world'


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Isn't that what the US handicap system is pretty well known for, that all scores should be submitted? When golfers don't finish a hole, they just put in their "most likely score"
		
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lol, what? "Can't be arsed finding that one, but if I took a drop I most likely would have jarred it for a par so stick me down for that."


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## Swango1980 (Jul 25, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Put me down for a 72 gross please.

Most likely score, sorry thats a bit of a joke, who knows what happens before holing out in the 'real world'
		
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Most Likely Score is already part of WHS, it is just that the UK have chosen not to adopt it, yet. I believe Ireland are trying it.

Personally, I don't like it, but others will defend it until the cows come home


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## Bobthesock (Jul 25, 2022)

If I have a bad first few holes I already give up in my head and just treat it as a practice round. Flop shots from tight lies, hitting big slices for no obvious reason etc. Is this cheating or just what most people do? Can't imagine that many give it 100% when already out of the comp after 3 holes?


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## Imurg (Jul 25, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Did you mean a month?? Otherwise this doesn't add up with what you said at the end. I was going to argue a handicap isn't that accurate if it only reflects your last 3-4 weeks play. 😂
		
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I play with others about 4 or 5 times a week and, mostly, a card goes in...
Your Index should reflect your current form..what's more current than the last 3 or 4 weeks?
If I hit a run of form then the index drops quickly to reflect it..it doesn't stay high for 3 or 4 weeks because I haven't put any other cards in.
And vice versa....


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I play with others about 4 or 5 times a week and, mostly, a card goes in...
Your Index should reflect your current form..what's more current than the last 3 or 4 weeks?
If I hit a run of form then the index drops quickly to reflect it..it doesn't stay high for 3 or 4 weeks because I haven't put any other cards in.
And vice versa....
		
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Sorry, I misread your '63 cards this year' as 63 in one whole year, hence why my maths didn't add up. 😆

As I said above, I don't really see why it should reflect your current form. If you've been playing poorly for 3 or 4 weeks and wiped out your whole record it's not exactly a great leap to then play as well as you did one month ago and subsequently earn yourself about 42 points. I just don't think a 3 week window is a broad enough reflection of how good you are at golf. If I was playing against someone who was off 15 all based on the last 3 weeks but I can see he was shooting 7 or 8 over just 4 weeks ago I'd be seriously worried! Whereas if that handicap was based on 3 months worth of golf I'd be more secure that it reflects his current level.


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## Imurg (Jul 25, 2022)

Depends on your definition of the word Current.....


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## Swango1980 (Jul 25, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			If I have a bad first few holes I already give up in my head and just treat it as a practice round. Flop shots from tight lies, hitting big slices for no obvious reason etc. Is this cheating or just what most people do? Can't imagine that many give it 100% when already out of the comp after 3 holes?
		
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I've always felt that could be an unwanted consequence of WHS. Are you cheating? Well, I wouldn't call you a cheat because in my mind, there always has to be some malicious intent to be classed as a cheat. However, as you are not technically playing to the best of your ability, then you could be accused of not fulfilling your handicapping responsibilities (maybe you could argue you are trying to play the best possible flop shot, despite it being the wrong type of shot).

Always felt WHS could favour, to some extent, the mentally weaker golfers. The ones who give up early in the round (doesn't even need to be that early to be honest, even a blow up with 3 or 4 holes to go can make a difference). If they do it frequently, there is ever chance some of those rounds could make their top 8, whilst many outside the top 8 never had a chance due to players mindset. This would result in a higher index, to some degree, than would have been possible if the player tried harder.

Compare to a player who digs deep no matter how rubbish they started. All 8 scores will have been submitted with the player trying their hardest, and some of those 8 might have featured dodgy starts, but the player turned it round and had an amazing end to the round. It is more likely they will reach a relatively lower index (against their actual ability) than the first player.


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## slicer79 (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Isn't that what the US handicap system is pretty well known for, that all scores should be submitted? When golfers don't finish a hole, they just put in their "most likely score"
		
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I watch various bits of golf on YouTube. I've also noted how loose the American guys are with rules.
I've watched scrambles where the position of ball being taken is never marked even on green. The others just play from roughly the same place.
Also when putting if one of first guys is close to hole after hitting their putt they generally walk up and tap it in before others hit their putt. To me once you tap in that's the hole finished
Very dodgy also with lost balls , just dropping one where ball got lost as opposed to hitting provisional from original position

I can see why  a lot of American golfers seem to have a handicap that appears lower than their ability 

Watched one competitive scramble on the Good Good channel, each team was allowed take 4 mulligans in their round! Thought that was a bit mad


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## Bobthesock (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've always felt that could be an unwanted consequence of WHS. Are you cheating? Well, I wouldn't call you a cheat because in my mind, there always has to be some malicious intent to be classed as a cheat. However, as you are not technically playing to the best of your ability, then you could be accused of not fulfilling your handicapping responsibilities (maybe you could argue you are trying to play the best possible flop shot, despite it being the wrong type of shot).

Always felt WHS could favour, to some extent, the mentally weaker golfers. The ones who give up early in the round (doesn't even need to be that early to be honest, even a blow up with 3 or 4 holes to go can make a difference). If they do it frequently, there is ever chance some of those rounds could make their top 8, whilst many outside the top 8 never had a chance due to players mindset. This would result in a higher index, to some degree, than would have been possible if the player tried harder.

Compare to a player who digs deep no matter how rubbish they started. All 8 scores will have been submitted with the player trying their hardest, and some of those 8 might have featured dodgy starts, but the player turned it round and had an amazing end to the round. It is more likely they will reach a relatively lower index (against their actual ability) than the first player.
		
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Completely agree with this. My handicap is the same as it was pre whs even though I feel like I'm much better now on my good days. Still have enough bad rounds to keep it there though. 
I find that trying my hardest when playing badly just results in worse scores and more frustration so probably end up playing better when not caring.
I actually holed a ridiculous flop shot a few weeks ago when thinking "sod it"


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			Watched one competitive scramble on the Good Good channel, each team was allowed take 4 mulligans in their round! Thought that was a bit mad
		
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That's extremely weird in a scramble. A scramble is essentially 3 Mulligans for each shot already!


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			I watch various bits of golf on YouTube. I've also noted how loose the American guys are with rules.
I've watched scrambles where the position of ball being taken is never marked even on green. The others just play from roughly the same place.
Also when putting if one of first guys is close to hole after hitting their putt they generally walk up and tap it in before others hit their putt. To me once you tap in that's the hole finished
Very dodgy also with lost balls , just dropping one where ball got lost as opposed to hitting provisional from original position

I can see why  a lot of American golfers seem to have a handicap that appears lower than their ability

Watched one competitive scramble on the Good Good channel, each team was allowed take 4 mulligans in their round! Thought that was a bit mad
		
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But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 25, 2022)

Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 25, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?
		
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Well, you could report it to the Committee and they can seek a clarification from the player. If his response is "nobody spends only 3 minutes looking for a ball", then I don't think it would do him much good.

However, sadly you have probably hit on a rule that is broken consistently by many, whilst others stick to it. Therefore, it is the ones that don't bother that get the advantage. My mate told me that, last week in our club champs, one of the chaps he played with could not find his ball. After failing in his search, he then went all the way back to the tee to play a 3rd. Then came back and happened to find his original. He shouted "here it is, found my first one" and proceeded to play on with that one. This guy was not some newbie. He is probably in his 60's, been at the club for decades and was a very low handicapper once upon a time, I think he is around 11 or 12 now. My mate and the other guy in the group were a bit shocked, but like many golfers who are out to play their hobby, they didn't want to quote the rule book at him and turn it into a potentially uncomfortable situation. So they just ignored it and moved on.

But, in general, I have been behind groups frequently who seem to occasionally take an age to look for a ball. I have played with players who will continue looking, even after someone else has said it looks like the 3 minutes is up. I think the general rule many golfers use is not 3 minutes. It is how long can I get away with looking before I start holding up the group behind too long, or slowing my group too much. That subjective time often is a lot longer than 3 minutes.


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## KenL (Jul 25, 2022)

sunshine said:



			But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.
		
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Can be decent prizes to be won though, so there ought to be some regard for rules.


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, you could report it to the Committee and they can seek a clarification from the player. If his response is "nobody spends only 3 minutes looking for a ball", then I don't think it would do him much good.

However, sadly you have probably hit on a rule that is broken consistently by many, whilst others stick to it. Therefore, it is the ones that don't bother that get the advantage. My mate told me that, last week in our club champs, one of the chaps he played with could not find his ball. After failing in his search, he then went all the way back to the tee to play a 3rd. Then came back and happened to find his original. He shouted "here it is, found my first one" and proceeded to play on with that one. This guy was not some newbie. He is probably in his 60's, been at the club for decades and was a very low handicapper once upon a time, I think he is around 11 or 12 now. My mate and the other guy in the group were a bit shocked, but like many golfers who are out to play their hobby, they didn't want to quote the rule book at him and turn it into a potentially uncomfortable situation. So they just ignored it and moved on.

But, in general, I have been behind groups frequently who seem to occasionally take an age to look for a ball. I have played with players who will continue looking, even after someone else has said it looks like the 3 minutes is up. I think the general rule many golfers use is not 3 minutes. It is how long can I get away with looking before I start holding up the group behind too long, or slowing my group too much. That subjective time often is a lot longer than 3 minutes.
		
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I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf. 

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though.


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## KenL (Jul 25, 2022)

I check my watch and keep an eye on the time in any search in a competition.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 25, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. *If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose*, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf.

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though. 

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Ohh no Orikoru, this isn't another one of your "I'm happy to assume it is in bounds if the grass is cut short, despite behind beyond the white stakes" comments!?

I agree, generally, that virtually nobody gets the stop watch out, and so will never know exactly how long has passed. And, peoples perception of time is very different. The only person I've ever heard of anybody knowing exactly how long has passed using their mind was Jack Reacher, and he is fictional.


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Ohh no Orikoru, this isn't another one of your "I'm happy to assume it is in bounds if the grass is cut short, despite behind beyond the white stakes" comments!?*

I agree, generally, that virtually nobody gets the stop watch out, and so will never know exactly how long has passed. And, peoples perception of time is very different. The only person I've ever heard of anybody knowing exactly how long has passed using their mind was Jack Reacher, and he is fictional.
		
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I've already had it for this one before, trust me.


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## RichA (Jul 25, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf.

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though. 

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I time it. The timer on my Garmin watch is set to 3 minutes. 
If I'm helping somebody look for their ball I wander off to play my own shot when it buzzes.
If I'm looking for my own ball I'm generally bored of searching and off to my provisional after 90 seconds.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 25, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?
		
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The guy in question was actually winning The Comp. Until the penultimate group came in!


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## slicer79 (Jul 25, 2022)

sunshine said:



			But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.
		
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No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed. 
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from 
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough


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## arnieboy (Jul 25, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed.
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough
		
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Totally agree with the last sentence.


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## Slab (Jul 26, 2022)

RichA said:



			I time it. The timer on my Garmin watch is set to 3 minutes.
If I'm helping somebody look for their ball I wander off to play my own shot when it buzzes.
If I'm looking for my own ball I'm generally bored of searching and off to my provisional after 90 seconds.
		
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Any tips for activating the timer while garmin is in the GPS golf mode?


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## RichA (Jul 26, 2022)

Slab said:



			Any tips for activating the timer while garmin is in the GPS golf mode?
		
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On mine (Venu 2), press and hold the top right button and it brings up the controls menu which includes the timer. This works on my watch whatever mode you're in.


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## Slab (Jul 26, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed.
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough
		
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Fun as Scrambles are I agree there should be 'rules' for the comp. although these will vary from one committee to another and one year to the next 
(I think it was @Colin L who had a great template for Scramble rules that he shared a while back)

Although there's not necessarily any 'breach' taking place, I've played in them where placing is through the green and others where its closely mown only. In other Scrambles mulligans could be purchased (proceeds to charity etc) before the start, sometimes mulligans are to be used on tee shots only, other times any shot can be retaken (inc a putt!) 
None of this really matters in Scramble format providing its the same for the field on that day, although to a 3rd party hearing about placing in rough or mulligans etc after the event they might be a tad surprised unless they knew the conditions of comp that were in force


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## richbeech (Jul 26, 2022)

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2. 

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below. 

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.


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## Backache (Jul 26, 2022)

richbeech said:



			Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.
		
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Presumably it is not a handicap competition and some people do improve quickly. Preumably his handicap will be cut as a result of those scores and as it is outwith a handicap competition there is no evidence of manipulation.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 26, 2022)

richbeech said:



			Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.
		
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It depends. My mate won his first club championship when he played off around 13 or 14. His first round was level par (1 over SSS). He had a genuine earned handicap before the club champs, and maybe been a member for a year or two. He is a naturally sporty guy, and he would have started to play and practice a bit more in the weeks leading up to the Club Champs, like a lot of players do. So, the Club Champs along with the practice just lead to him refining his game, and ultimately led to him beginning the process of falling towards a handicap of low single figures (think his best was 4 or 5).

So, just because someone shoots nett 10 under, it is probably fair to say, doesn't automatically categorise them as a handicap cheat (as per the thread title). They could just have a genuine reason to have significant improvement, coupled with a round that went extremely well for them in terms of luck.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jul 26, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It depends. My mate won his first club championship when he played off around 13 or 14. His first round was level par (1 over SSS). He had a genuine earned handicap before the club champs, and maybe been a member for a year or two. He is a naturally sporty guy, and he would have started to play and practice a bit more in the weeks leading up to the Club Champs, like a lot of players do. So, the Club Champs along with the practice just lead to him refining his game, and ultimately led to him beginning the process of falling towards a handicap of low single figures (think his best was 4 or 5).

So, just because someone shoots nett 10 under, it is probably fair to say, doesn't automatically categorise them as a handicap cheat (as per the thread title). They could just have a genuine reason to have significant improvement, coupled with a round that went extremely well for them in terms of luck.
		
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Perhaps i'm miss judging how hard it is, but i would have thought someone playing off 4/5 over 5 years (so true 4/5 handicap) will have shot a 69 at some point. I mean it's 7 or 8 under but i still would have thought it happens as they've got the ability to par every hole if they get on a run and manage to keep it together mentally.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

richbeech said:



			Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2. 

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below. 

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.
		
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I disagree. A 10 handicap golfer, by definition, is no mug. Capable of pars at every hole, birdies at most. And if it all comes together they are well capable of good scores. My best knock of one over gross off our back tees came when I was off 11 - everything clicked.

The best round I have ever seen first hand was a seven under gross by a mate playing off 4. Statistically better, as he played eleven better than his handicap. Nobody moaned about that.

We all need to accept that, once a golfer is around a single figure handicap, really good scores are no longer impossible. It’s one of the reasons I no longer play our Club Championship. 8 handicap and below play both their rounds on a Saturday for the gross winner, everyone else has to give up their entire weekend and play both days. Worse still, they announce the new Club Champion on the Saturday evening, despite maintaining their stance that every entrant, including those off 9 and above, are playing for the title. It’s elitist, and irritating because, as a 9 handicap, I am as capable of shooting as low as most of those playing both rounds on the Saturday. I, and many others I know of a similar standard, object to being treated like an afterthought.


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 26, 2022)

As a teenager in the 1970s I got my handicap down from 18 to 10 in one year. As I had not played to 10 or below three times in the year I was given a shot back to 11.
The following year was O-Levels and I did not play comps in May and June.
Then I won my club's Boys Championship by 3 shots with a gross 74 (nett 63 on a par 69 got cut to 8).
Four days later I won a men's board comp with 69 - 8 = 61. (got cut to 5)
Those remain the best two consecutive nett scores in my life. And 8-under par nett is the best ever nett score.
There are improving golfers out there. It is a fact.
I spent 5 days as a bandit.
Never been one again.


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## Biggleswade Blue (Jul 26, 2022)

richbeech said:



			Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.
		
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Why ridiculous?  Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules.  We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them.  You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating.  Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation.  A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway.  all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch!  Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition.  "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it.  Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish down the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them.  If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with.  I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them.  High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them.  In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up?  It could make the day more interesting for both.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			Why ridiculous?  Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules.  We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them.  You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating.  Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation.  A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway.  all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch!  Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition.  "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it.  Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish own the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them.  If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with.  I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them.  High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them.  In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up?  It could make the day more interesting for both.
		
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Spot on.

I recall several years ago playing in our summer handicap knockout. The clue is in there - the word handicap. I was off 16 at the time and had been drawn against an 8 handicap who I didn’t know. Several people warned me beforehand he was a grumpy pillock.

Front nine I played really, really well. My opponent barely spoke from the 5th, his mood getting more aggressive and obnoxious by the minute, clearly unhappy with the way I was playing, and by the turn he had steam coming from his ears. 

I asked him what was troubling him, already knowing the answer. What a pity he didn’t consider the state of the match before he blurted out “You’re a bandit” (with expletives which are banned from this forum included). I stared him dead in the eye and said “If I’m a bandit so are you. We’re all square.” He simply didn’t get it - we were playing a handicap match, and if we were all square with me playing well under my handicap it followed he must be doing likewise.

We played the back nine in uncomfortable silence, and I won at the 19th. He stormed off, no word, no handshake, nothing. I’d played to about 9, him to about 2 or 3. He simply couldn’t accept a higher handicap golfer playing within themselves, although he also had.

I’ve never been so pleased to win a knockout. Never saw my opponent again, as he moved clubs later that year. No doubt he’s being grumpy elsewhere.


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## banjofred (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Spot on.

I recall several years ago playing in our summer handicap knockout. The clue is in there - the word handicap. I was off 16 at the time and had been drawn against an 8 handicap who I didn’t know. Several people warned me beforehand he was a grumpy pillock.

Front nine I played really, really well. My opponent barely spoke from the 5th, his mood getting more aggressive and obnoxious by the minute, clearly unhappy with the way I was playing, and by the turn he had steam coming from his ears.

I asked him what was troubling him, already knowing the answer. What a pity he didn’t consider the state of the match before he blurted out “You’re a bandit” (with expletives which are banned from this forum included). I stared him dead in the eye and said “If I’m a bandit so are you. We’re all square.” He simply didn’t get it - we were playing a handicap match, and if we were all square with me playing well under my handicap it followed he must be doing likewise.

We played the back nine in uncomfortable silence, and I won at the 19th. He stormed off, no word, no handshake, nothing. I’d played to about 9, him to about 2 or 3. He simply couldn’t accept a higher handicap golfer playing within themselves, although he also had.

I’ve never been so pleased to win a knockout. Never saw my opponent again, as he moved clubs later that year. No doubt he’s being grumpy elsewhere.
		
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This is why I stay away from matchplay. If I was in that situation (being called a bandit), I would have just told him he could have the match and walked off. I can make myself miserable on a golf course....I don't need somebody else to do it for me.


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## Wilson (Jul 26, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?
		
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My friend and I use the system legitimately - difficult for either of us to play in many comps, (but will when we can), but when we play we try and always do a card to keep our index's as accurate as possible. We've never even talked of doing anything untoward, I'm not sure either of us would, I know if he asked me to do something dodgy it would be a no-go.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			This is why I stay away from matchplay. If I was in that situation (being called a bandit), I would have just told him he could have the match and walked off. I can make myself miserable on a golf course....I don't need somebody else to do it for me. 

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I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.


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## banjofred (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.
		
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I can live with something like that.....he let you know up front. It might not make for the most enjoyable round of golf, but I could live with that. The last time I played a match a couple of years ago, I let the guy know up front I don't give gimmes outside a foot.....no problem. Nothing worse than people complaining for years about some guy who didn't give him a putt he "should have"......


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## arnieboy (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.
		
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Strange attitude,  did you win?


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

arnieboy said:



			Strange attitude,  did you win?
		
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Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.


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## Orikoru (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.
		
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I'd have been cracking stupid jokes and whatnot throughout the round anyway, even if he didn't reply. And if it put him off that's his problem. 🤣


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.
		
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The general public are odd.
No suprize golf has a few.
It happened to my mate years ago in the scratch team.
He said he kept just saying random sentences at the top of his voice.
When the guy said “ what” he just said .” I wasn’t talking to you” made me laugh.


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## pendodave (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.
		
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How bizarre. 
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into. 
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 26, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.
		
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I assume this is when you represented Europe in the Ryder Cup?


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

pendodave said:



			How bizarre. 
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into. 
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.
		
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Quite!


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume this is when you represented Europe in the Ryder Cup? 

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Felt like it, but with none of the crowds. Or free kit. Or groupies. The opening and closing ceremonies were very quiet affairs, too.


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## sweaty sock (Jul 27, 2022)

This thread has successfully put me off ever entering a club knockout again...


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2022)

pendodave said:



			How bizarre.
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into.
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.
		
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100% - and if I took it that seriously I would play worse as well! In the pairs matchplays I've played, I just make sure I enjoy the round and don't even think about the score, and I tend to play better that way anyway so it's win-win.


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## Patster1969 (Jul 27, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			This thread has successfully put me off ever entering a club knockout again...
		
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100% - the comments I heard from the low handicappers having to give "hackers" a load of shots also helped


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## SurreyGolfer (Jul 27, 2022)

As a relative newcomer who as yet hasn't plucked up the courage to enter any competitions (lucky to have some good, honest, rule abiding PP's) , and actually is a little nervous re H4H in October(!), this thread is interesting. I'm a (very) high handicapper playing off 23, but it's come down from 31 at the start of the year. If I entered a comp tomorrow I reckon I could hit anywhere between 5 or 6 under my handicap and up to about 10 over, depending on all sorts of factors. 

If I shot 5 under handicap in a comp tomorrow, judging from this thread there is a fair chance I'd at best be called a bandit, at worst potentially get into a verbal argument with an opponent who might accuse me of cheating. Why is it rarer for people to recognise that 1) High handicappers probably have a higher 'score dispersion' than low handicappers, and 2) people have lessons, work hard to improve but there's always going to be a slight lag with the WHS catching up?

Assuming they aren't dropping balls and cheating, surely it's a case of play the person, play the handicap, and whatever happens shake hands at the end?


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## Neilds (Jul 27, 2022)

SurreyGolfer said:



			As a relative newcomer who as yet hasn't plucked up the courage to enter any competitions (lucky to have some good, honest, rule abiding PP's) , and actually is a little nervous re H4H in October(!), this thread is interesting. I'm a (very) high handicapper playing off 23, but it's come down from 31 at the start of the year. If I entered a comp tomorrow I reckon I could hit anywhere between 5 or 6 under my handicap and up to about 10 over, depending on all sorts of factors.

If I shot 5 under handicap in a comp tomorrow, judging from this thread there is a fair chance I'd at best be called a bandit, at worst potentially get into a verbal argument with an opponent who might accuse me of cheating. Why is it rarer for people to recognise that 1) High handicappers probably have a higher 'score dispersion' than low handicappers, and 2) people have lessons, work hard to improve but there's always going to be a slight lag with the WHS catching up?

Assuming they aren't dropping balls and cheating, surely it's a case of play the person, play the handicap, and whatever happens shake hands at the end?
		
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What you will learn form this forum is that no golfer ever lost a match/competition to a higher handicap player because they actually played rubbish on the day.  It is far more convenient to blame the opponent or the system for their loss


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## evemccc (Jul 27, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I can live with something like that.....he let you know up front. It might not make for the most enjoyable round of golf, but I could live with that. The last time I played a match a couple of years ago, I let the guy know up front I don't give gimmes outside a foot.....no problem. Nothing worse than people complaining for years about some guy who didn't give him a putt he "should have"......
		
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Everyone I play golf with socially wants to improve as a golfer - and everyone putts out for this reason

The few times we don’t is exclusively when we’re not putting cards in, not playing a full round, or playing two balls / dropping balls etc.which is the basis of our social golf…..and even those times we mostly putt everything out

People who complain and moan about not being given putts probably just need the putting practice🤣

The only time I felt I possibly didn’t give a putt in a putt in a matchplay KO match, when most people probably would have, was missed…so I felt vindicated!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 27, 2022)

SurreyGolfer said:



			As a relative newcomer who as yet hasn't plucked up the courage to enter any competitions (lucky to have some good, honest, rule abiding PP's) , and actually is a little nervous re H4H in October(!), this thread is interesting. I'm a (very) high handicapper playing off 23, but it's come down from 31 at the start of the year. If I entered a comp tomorrow I reckon I could hit anywhere between 5 or 6 under my handicap and up to about 10 over, depending on all sorts of factors.

If I shot 5 under handicap in a comp tomorrow, judging from this thread there is a fair chance I'd at best be called a bandit, at worst potentially get into a verbal argument with an opponent who might accuse me of cheating. Why is it rarer for people to recognise that 1) High handicappers probably have a higher 'score dispersion' than low handicappers, and 2) people have lessons, work hard to improve but there's always going to be a slight lag with the WHS catching up?

Assuming they aren't dropping balls and cheating, surely it's a case of play the person, play the handicap, and whatever happens shake hands at the end?
		
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It is extremely unlikely anyone would call you a cheater, unless they had evidence you were genuinely trying to maintain a high handicap, and then going out and winning comps with relative ease (which I have no doubt they do not have if this very fact is untrue). If there was someone called you a cheat, I am sure it is the sort of person a lot of other regular golfers have no respect for anyway, so I wouldn't worry.

Maybe you'd get the odd bit of banter of bandit calling, but in a friendly, jokey way. And, if you do play well, your handicap will go down anyway.

All beginners get better, thus they will shoot better scores, and the way the system works, once the scores get better, the handicap comes down. It would be ridiculous to accuse you as being a cheat for using the system as intended.


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## D-S (Jul 27, 2022)

Being called a bandit is not necessarily an insult, it is often said as a veiled compliment.
I was once caddying for one our Ladies County team, and after birdieing four of the first 5 holes, her opponent idly asked what she was playing off these days - the reply was scratch as she hardly played much any more. The opponent then came up with the unforgettable line " Wow, you must be a helluva bandit of scratch".


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2022)

SurreyGolfer said:



			As a relative newcomer who as yet hasn't plucked up the courage to enter any competitions (lucky to have some good, honest, rule abiding PP's) , and actually is a little nervous re H4H in October(!), this thread is interesting. I'm a (very) high handicapper playing off 23, but it's come down from 31 at the start of the year. If I entered a comp tomorrow I reckon I could hit anywhere between 5 or 6 under my handicap and up to about 10 over, depending on all sorts of factors.

If I shot 5 under handicap in a comp tomorrow, judging from this thread there is a fair chance I'd at best be called a bandit, at worst potentially get into a verbal argument with an opponent who might accuse me of cheating. Why is it rarer for people to recognise that 1) High handicappers probably have a higher 'score dispersion' than low handicappers, and 2) people have lessons, work hard to improve but there's always going to be a slight lag with the WHS catching up?

Assuming they aren't dropping balls and cheating, surely it's a case of play the person, play the handicap, and whatever happens shake hands at the end?
		
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Firstly I wouldn't say 23 is very high, just high. Secondly, sod all of that nonsense, shooting 40-42 points doesn't make you a bandit at all it just means you played well. If you were doing that every single week and not putting cards in then maybe! But it doesn't sound like you're doing that so don't worry. 😄

Edit: To be fair a lot of us would use bandit in an informal jokey way which is different. i.e. I do call my mate a bandit every time he gets 36 points or better but he obviously knows there is nothing accusatory going on there.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 31, 2022)

I am NOT saying they were cheating, however:-

2 girls went out together in a Juniors Competition and whilst they were on an adjacent tee we heard one say, “ Which way do you think this putt will go? I am not sure”

Their scores were 87-37 -50
                           89-39 - 50

They came 1st and 2nd and their previous best were 102 and 107 respectively!


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## KenL (Jul 31, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			I am NOT saying they were cheating, however:-

2 girls went out together in a Juniors Competition and whilst they were on an adjacent tee we heard one say, “ Which way do you think this putt will go? I am not sure”

Their scores were 87-37 -50
                           89-39 - 50

They came 1st and 2nd and their previous best were 102 and 107 respectively!
		
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You took the time to post this on here. Did you not consider reporting this to the comp organiser?


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 31, 2022)

KenL said:



			You took the time to post this on here. Did you not consider reporting this to the comp organiser?
		
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No.


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## KenL (Jul 31, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			No.
		
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Why not?


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 31, 2022)

KenL said:



			Why not?
		
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That was the decision I made.

Kindly accept my decision.


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## KenL (Jul 31, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			That was the decision I made.

Kindly accept my decision.
		
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I do, but...


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## Bdill93 (Jul 31, 2022)

Pairs match play semi final. 

I shot 83, one below HC. 
Dad - 81, 6 below HC

Opponents both off 22 plus index’s - one shot 1 over back nine…. How can we even compete?! Not in with a chance at all and we’re both playing out of our skin!

I had 2 bogies, 1 double (they made birdie) and parred everything else. Should have been enough. 

Joke


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## Orikoru (Jul 31, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			I am NOT saying they were cheating, however:-

2 girls went out together in a Juniors Competition and whilst they were on an adjacent tee we heard one say, “ Which way do you think this putt will go? I am not sure”

Their scores were 87-37 -50
                           89-39 - 50

They came 1st and 2nd and their previous best were 102 and 107 respectively!
		
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Not sure if I've missed something but are you saying that helping each other read the odd putt saved them as many as 18 shots??


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 31, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Not sure if I've missed something but are you saying that helping each other read the odd putt saved them as many as 18 shots??
		
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No. I was implying advice although they MAY not have been aware it was asking for advice.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 31, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Pairs match play semi final.

I shot 83, one below HC.
Dad - 81, 6 below HC

Opponents both off 22 plus index’s - one shot 1 over back nine…. How can we even compete?! Not in with a chance at all and we’re both playing out of our skin!

I had 2 bogies, 1 double (they made birdie) and parred everything else. Should have been enough.

Joke
		
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You must be so disappointed.

Kindly update me as I may have missed the next instalment .What has happened in your singles match, probably the best read on here for some time


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## rosecott (Aug 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Pairs match play semi final.

I shot 83, one below HC.
Dad - 81, 6 below HC

Opponents both off 22 plus index’s - one shot 1 over back nine…. How can we even compete?! Not in with a chance at all and we’re both playing out of our skin!

I had 2 bogies, 1 double (they made birdie) and parred everything else. Should have been enough.

Joke
		
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It's matchplay - suck it up.

My partner and I were overwhelming favourites - on paper - to win a round of our Seniors Pairs knockout. Both opponents played out of their skins and took it to extra holes. On the 170-yard par 3 2nd, one of them stuffed his tee shot to 5 feet from the pin, sunk the putt and that was that. His handicap was in the low 30s with a very substantial regular playing history.

That's matchplay.


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2022)

rosecott said:



			It's matchplay - suck it up.

My partner and I were overwhelming favourites - on paper - to win a round of our Seniors Pairs knockout. Both opponents played out of their skins and took it to extra holes. On the 170-yard par 3 2nd, one of them stuffed his tee shot to 5 feet from the pin, sunk the putt and that was that. His handicap was in the low 30s with a very substantial regular playing history.

That's matchplay.
		
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What made you favourites?
Were there strokes involved?


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## Whereditgo (Aug 1, 2022)

Neilds said:



			What you will learn form this forum is that no golfer ever lost a match/competition to a higher handicap player because they actually played rubbish on the day.  It is far more convenient to blame the opponent or the system for their loss 

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Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6  and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap"  it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!


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## evemccc (Aug 1, 2022)

Whereditgo said:



			Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6  and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap"  it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!
		
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Did you respond to his comment?


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## evemccc (Aug 1, 2022)

Whereditgo said:



			Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6  and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap"  it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!
		
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I had a not dissimilar experience - and I said that “as you (my opponent) know my name, and I’m on the EG app, why don’t you look up my scores for the last 12 months” - I shook his hand after I beat him, but I didn’t say out loud what I was thinking..


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## Whereditgo (Aug 1, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Did you respond to his comment?
		
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Just laughed and called him a pillock.


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## AddisonRoad (Aug 1, 2022)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			Why ridiculous?  Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules.  We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them.  You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating.  Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation.  A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway.  all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch!  Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition.  "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it.  Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish down the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them.  If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with.  I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them.  High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them.  In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up?  It could make the day more interesting for both.
		
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Agreed. I played a society day recently where someone won with 44 points - seems like some people think this is an unfair score. I play consistently with the person who won, and can honestly say it's the best they've ever played (it was a Personal Best score by a few strokes). It was a completely fair win, yet people will deride it.


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## Springveldt (Aug 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Pairs match play semi final.
I shot 83, one below HC.
Dad - 81, 6 below HC
Opponents both off 22 plus index’s - one shot 1 over back nine…. How can we even compete?! Not in with a chance at all and we’re both playing out of our skin!
I had 2 bogies, 1 double (they made birdie) and parred everything else. Should have been enough.
Joke
		
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Definitely deserving of this thread.



rosecott said:



			It's matchplay - suck it up.
My partner and I were overwhelming favourites - on paper - to win a round of our Seniors Pairs knockout. Both opponents played out of their skins and took it to extra holes. On the 170-yard par 3 2nd, one of them stuffed his tee shot to 5 feet from the pin, sunk the putt and that was that. His handicap was in the low 30s with a very substantial regular playing history.
That's matchplay.
		
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Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

The opponent is a handicap cheat, some rounds you can believe but someone shooting -11 for 9 holes is just not it.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 1, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Definitely deserving of this thread.


Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

The opponent is a handicap cheat, some rounds you can believe but someone shooting -11 for 9 holes is just not it.
		
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What did the high handicapper have over 18 holes? I know a 30 handicapper that birdied a stroke index 1 hole before. That is, they shot 4 shots better than their handicap for ONE hole. Does that make them a handicap cheat? What about a high handicapper that shoots 10-11 points in 3 holes. Are they cheats? How many good holes would you permit a high handicapper to have, before accusing them of being a cheat?

If you have other evidence that they are a CHEAT (purposely keeping a high handicap), then fair enough. I'm all ears. I'm know there are players out there that do this. However, if you are basing this on just 9 holes of excellent golf, that is harsh on them.

Maybe, just maybe, they were a bit more relaxed in match play, when there is much less stress on blowing up on a hole and trying to string 9-18 good hole scores together. Maybe they managed to sink a birdie or 2, which are like gold dust, and then avoided any horror shows. Maybe the weather was nice, greens putting well, and course playing significantly shorter with a lot of run on the fairways? Or, maybe they were just newcomers to golf, and the system has given them a genuine handicap on a low number of genuine scores, and as they continue to submit more, and improve, it will fall rapidly. In other words, I can think of a lot of good reasons why they could have scored so well, before concluding they are cheats.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 1, 2022)

Whereditgo said:



			Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6  and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap"  it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!
		
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You should have turned the conversation on its head. Based on the evidence of that round, you should have told their guy he is never a (whatever his handicap was) handicapper, and his handicap should be 10 higher than it was.


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## Imurg (Aug 1, 2022)

With a course handicap of 27, Fragger shot 4 over for the front 9 in a medal a few weeks back...normal service resumed on the back 9 though but it shows it can be done..


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## Springveldt (Aug 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What did the high handicapper have over 18 holes? I know a 30 handicapper that birdied a stroke index 1 hole before. That is, they shot 4 shots better than their handicap for ONE hole. Does that make them a handicap cheat? What about a high handicapper that shoots 10-11 points in 3 holes. Are they cheats? How many good holes would you permit a high handicapper to have, before accusing them of being a cheat?

If you have other evidence that they are a CHEAT (purposely keeping a high handicap), then fair enough. I'm all ears. I'm know there are players out there that do this. However, if you are basing this on just 9 holes of excellent golf, that is harsh on them.

Maybe, just maybe, they were a bit more relaxed in match play, when there is much less stress on blowing up on a hole and trying to string 9-18 good hole scores together. Maybe they managed to sink a birdie or 2, which are like gold dust, and then avoided any horror shows. Maybe the weather was nice, greens putting well, and course playing significantly shorter with a lot of run on the fairways? Or, maybe they were just newcomers to golf, and the system has given them a genuine handicap on a low number of genuine scores, and as they continue to submit more, and improve, it will fall rapidly. In other words, I can think of a lot of good reasons why they could have scored so well, before concluding they are cheats.
		
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I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely cheating their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.


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## Kaz (Aug 1, 2022)

In normal conditions I'd say anyone scoring 44+ points is playing off the wrong handicap. Not necessarily cheating but just not accurate enough IMO.

But one factor that's exacerbating things at the moment is that different conditions "favour" different skill levels. The firm, fast conditions we've been experiencing make the game a bit easier for short hitters who start reaching greens in reg that are normally beyond them so significantly better scores become a possibility.


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## RichA (Aug 1, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely cheating their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.
		
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I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating. 
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 1, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely* cheating* their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.
		
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I'm not denying that there is a good chance their handicap is too high for their current ability, but I'd still like a lot more conclusive evidence before having any confidence of using the word cheating. If it was me, and someone had that sort of score against me, my curiosity would get the better of me. I'd look to see if I could find their handicap record on MyEG and see how regularly they post scores. Do they play in club comps. Do they play in regular match play comps. I'd have probably asked them, congratulating them on how they played and they'll get a cut in no time, and asking how often they play, etc.

Did you do any of that? If they never played in club comps except for those not counting towards handicap (e.g. match play), and played a lot of team Open comps, then there may be a bit more info to suggest they could be keeping it higher for those comps.


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## Springveldt (Aug 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating.
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.
		
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Swango1980 said:



			I'm not denying that there is a good chance their handicap is too high for their current ability, but I'd still like a lot more conclusive evidence before having any confidence of using the word cheating. If it was me, and someone had that sort of score against me, my curiosity would get the better of me. I'd look to see if I could find their handicap record on MyEG and see how regularly they post scores. Do they play in club comps. Do they play in regular match play comps. I'd have probably asked them, congratulating them on how they played and they'll get a cut in no time, and asking how often they play, etc.

Did you do any of that? If they never played in club comps except for those not counting towards handicap (e.g. match play), and played a lot of team Open comps, then there may be a bit more info to suggest they could be keeping it higher for those comps.
		
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Bdill93 said:



			Soon to play against 2 in pairs matchplay..

Both guys HI's are above 20 - no cards in the system for over 12 months and yet both shot in the 70's in their last match against two people I know well and trust.... We're going to get battered
		
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This is why I said they were cheating. I remembered @Bdill93 post from earlier in the thread about him about to play a doubles match against people who had hardly any cards in and he called the match exactly even with his partner having the kind of round you have maybe once in a couple of seasons.


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating.
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.
		
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Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.


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## pendodave (Aug 1, 2022)

KenL said:



			Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.
		
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In my last 20, 4 have been under (by a maximum of 4 shots), 2 have been level and 14 have been over. I suspect this (and yours) is pretty normal for competent players. Once we're out beyond a shot a hole, it's the wild west baybee.


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## Backache (Aug 1, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Definitely deserving of this thread.


Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.
		
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If a golf club has approx 800 members playing once a week you will expect a 1650 to 1 outcome once a fortnight in a club.

Long odds events happen fairly frequently if there are enough chances of them to happen.

I suspect that the new handicap system is taking a bit of adjustment still.
There are a lot of people new to golf or returning to golf at the moment since the Pandemic.
New handicaps are inevitably less stable as there are fewer data points and sometimes people with a natural sporting ability improve rapidly.
.


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## RichA (Aug 1, 2022)

KenL said:



*Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.*
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.
		
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But I was +10 after the first 8 holes of my wonder round. 
In a comp a week earlier, I went round in 102 for 26 points.
After being cut following the 82, it was 4 months and about 36 rounds of golf until the next time I played to my HI.
Golfers who are consistent underestimate how inconsistent us bogey golfers are capable of being - in either direction.


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			But I was +10 after the first 8 holes of my wonder round.
In a comp a week earlier, I went round in 102 for 26 points.
After being cut following the 82, it was 4 months and about 36 rounds of golf until the next time I played to my HI.
Golfers who are consistent underestimate how inconsistent us bogey golfers are capable of being - in either direction.
		
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True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.


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## Springveldt (Aug 1, 2022)

Backache said:



			If a golf club has approx 800 members playing once a week you will expect a 1650 to 1 outcome once a fortnight in a club.

Long odds events happen fairly frequently if there are enough chances of them to happen.

I suspect that the new handicap system is taking a bit of adjustment still.
There are a lot of people new to golf or returning to golf at the moment since the Pandemic.
New handicaps are inevitably less stable as there are fewer data points and sometimes people with a natural sporting ability improve rapidly.
.
		
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That 1650/1 chance was for handicaps 22-30 range. It obviously increases dramatically as you get lower in handicap. 13-21 handicap is 37000/1, 0-5 is 125000/1.

Obviously longer odds happen more frequently with more chances but as I said later, the guy in question was probably -11 after 9 holes and had shot in the 70's in the previous round while being off of 23 or 24. According the the link I provided that's got 4 stars as the odds, so basically incalculable.


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## Crow (Aug 1, 2022)

KenL said:



			True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.
		
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Interesting, please check the results of your club's handicap competitions for this year and report back with the handicap of the winning player.


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2022)

Crow said:



			Interesting, please check the results of your club's handicap competitions for this year and report back with the handicap of the winning player.
		
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I've said before that "my" club does not seem to have too much of this type of problem. But, that is not what I see reported on here.


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## RichA (Aug 1, 2022)

KenL said:



			True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.
		
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My pal with HI 5 has won a couple of Stablefords this year. Most seem to be won by those in the 10-20 range. We're a small club with only about 200-300 members. Most of us know each other, so nobody is likely to attempt banditry - they wouldn't get away with it.
As has already been suggested, a big-hitting, sporty but inconsistent mid-high handicapper is capable of shooting 10-15 under handicap once in a blue moon. A low handicapper is unlikely to ever come close to that. I guess that's the point of having divisions.


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## Crow (Aug 1, 2022)

KenL said:



			I've said before that "my" club does not seem to have too much of this type of problem. But, that is not what I see reported on here.
		
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I don't think many, if any clubs, do in reality.

It would be nice to see some proof showing wins in each handicap range compared to the number of golfers in each range.
That would highlight if a particular handicap were winning more than their fair share.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 1, 2022)

I don't play in comps (off 12.5) but fwiw I recently shot 41 (par 35) for the front 9, which included a solitary 9 on a par 4. Ended up shooting an 89 with 4 birdies and just 3 pars. It was a wild ride 😎

I'm sure there's plenty of cheats, but my point being that with so many rounds played each week there's also going to be some crazy genuine rounds in there.


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## C7usk (Aug 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			I don't play in comps (off 12.5) but fwiw I recently shot 41 (par 35) for the front 9, which included a solitary 9 on a par 4. Ended up shooting an 89 with 4 birdies and just 3 pars. It was a wild ride 😎

I'm sure there's plenty of cheats, but my point being that with so many rounds played each week there's also going to be some crazy genuine rounds in there.
		
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Totally agree... Its the joys /despair of being mid handicapper... Recently started hitting a bit of form... Then shoved in a ton plus on sat....


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## Bdill93 (Aug 1, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			You must be so disappointed.

Kindly update me as I may have missed the next instalment .What has happened in your singles match, probably the best read on here for some time
		
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Lost in round 3 on 19th!!


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## Bdill93 (Aug 1, 2022)

rosecott said:



			It's matchplay - suck it up.

My partner and I were overwhelming favourites - on paper - to win a round of our Seniors Pairs knockout. Both opponents played out of their skins and took it to extra holes. On the 170-yard par 3 2nd, one of them stuffed his tee shot to 5 feet from the pin, sunk the putt and that was that. His handicap was in the low 30s with a very substantial regular playing history.

That's matchplay.
		
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I’d suck it up if one guy hadn’t have submitted 3 rounds and 3 rounds only since he joined the club over a year ago. Got his initial HC and never submitted another card. He’s off 23 and shot +1 on the back 9…. When I was off 23 I’d never have done that. It’s bull.


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## yandabrown (Aug 1, 2022)

Crow said:



			I don't think many, if any clubs, do in reality.

It would be nice to see some proof showing wins in each handicap range compared to the number of golfers in each range.
That would highlight if a particular handicap were winning more than their fair share.
		
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Here's the data from my club, it all looks reasonable, perhaps a slight bias against those in the 6-10 group, certainly not for the truly low cappers:


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## C7usk (Aug 1, 2022)

Not sure if this goes on at other clubs but ours 'pays out' for the scratch score in all comps as well as handicap score. So at least the low hcps have a good chance of getting some funds.... In fact I think a few of them do pretty well.


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## Pants (Aug 1, 2022)

C7usk said:



			So at least the low hcps have a good chance of getting some funds.... In fact I think a few of them do pretty well.
		
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I would guess that they take more than their "fair share" of the 2's sweep.


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## C7usk (Aug 2, 2022)

Pants said:



			I would guess that they take more than their "fair share" of the 2's sweep.
		
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The scratch winner gets nearly as much as the net winner. Last 2 sat sweeps the same guy won so almost 60 bucks. Which I don't grudge as they have a slim chance of winning with the net score. You pretty much need 41pts to have a sniff of winning... More than likely 43 or so..


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

C7usk said:



			The scratch winner gets nearly as much as the net winner. Last 2 sat sweeps the same guy won so almost 60 bucks. *Which I don't grudge as they have a slim chance of winning with the net score*. You pretty much need 41pts to have a sniff of winning... More than likely 43 or so..
		
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Maybe they have less chance of winning the net score, but they'd still have a chance. Whereas I'd imagine there are only a handful of players capable of winning the gross score, and many having absolutely zero chance. So, the lowest handicappers(s) in the field probably have a much better chance of winning the gross prize, than any individual player has of winning the net prize. 

So, if I was a low handicapper, I'd be delighted if the prize money for the lowest gross was similar to lowest nett. For any player not capable of winning the gross at all, most of the field, they'd be forgiven for being a little annoyed that a significant proportion of their entry fee is being paid out to the low handicappers. It would be interesting to total up all prize money given out over the year, combining all gross and nett prizes, and see how much of those funds were given back to the lower handicappers. Then compare that to the handicap proportions making up the typical field.


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## C7usk (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe they have less chance of winning the net score, but they'd still have a chance. Whereas I'd imagine there are only a handful of players capable of winning the gross score, and many having absolutely zero chance. So, the lowest handicappers(s) in the field probably have a much better chance of winning the gross prize, than any individual player has of winning the net prize.

So, if I was a low handicapper, I'd be delighted if the prize money for the lowest gross was similar to lowest nett. For any player not capable of winning the gross at all, most of the field, they'd be forgiven for being a little annoyed that a significant proportion of their entry fee is being paid out to the low handicappers. It would be interesting to total up all prize money given out over the year, combining all gross and nett prizes, and see how much of those funds were given back to the lower handicappers. Then compare that to the handicap proportions making up the typical field.
		
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Too true swango... Suppose they are getting two goes at the pot in reality... The perks of being a good golfer at my course... I'll keep an eye out for the accounts when they come out...


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2022)

I play in a couple of roll ups which also has one particular person in who we have all known for around  20-30 years. He is an absolute handicap protector,  has been known to deliberately throw the last couple of holes if he thinks he is not going to win the kitty, fairly regularly shots 40-45 points, he thinks playing to his handicap is a poor round. He has a current handicap of 32.7 yet only a few years ago was 16.

The organiser of an away day comp has told him that next year there will be a handicap limit (also partly because several of the players without official handicaps have been coming in with 40+ points) the player turned round and said he would not be going then. Clearly to him winning the money is more important than a day out with mates.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 3, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			I play in a couple of roll ups which also has one particular person in who we have all known for around  20-30 years. He is an absolute handicap protector,  has been known to deliberately throw the last couple of holes if he thinks he is not going to win the kitty, fairly regularly shots 40-45 points, he thinks playing to his handicap is a poor round. He has a current handicap of 34.7 yet only a few years ago was 16.

The organiser of an away day comp has told him that next year there will be a handicap limit (also partly because several of the players without official handicaps have been coming in with 40+ points) the player turned round and said he would not be going then. Clearly to him winning the money is more important than a day out with mates.
		
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How did his handicap increase by 18.7 in a few years?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 3, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			I play in a couple of roll ups which also has one particular person in who we have all known for around  20-30 years. He is an absolute handicap protector,  has been known to deliberately throw the last couple of holes if he thinks he is not going to win the kitty, fairly regularly shots 40-45 points, he thinks playing to his handicap is a poor round. He has a current handicap of 34.7 yet only a few years ago was 16.

The organiser of an away day comp has told him that next year there will be a handicap limit (also partly because several of the players without official handicaps have been coming in with 40+ points) the player turned round and said he would not be going then. Clearly to him winning the money is more important than a day out with mates.
		
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Why do you play in a roll up that tolerates this?

I'd be playing with people who have some integrity.


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			How did his handicap increase by 18.7 in a few years?
		
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 Something a bit weird there. 

These days I can only check his WHS record which oddly shows him as not receiving an initial WHS handicap of 24.6 until June 2018 also my typo, should read 32.7.
From memory I think he had a period where he left the club so he probably re-joined about then.


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## evemccc (Aug 4, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			I play in a couple of roll ups which also has one particular person in who we have all known for around  20-30 years. He is an absolute handicap protector,  has been known to deliberately throw the last couple of holes if he thinks he is not going to win the kitty, fairly regularly shots 40-45 points, he thinks playing to his handicap is a poor round. He has a current handicap of 32.7 yet only a few years ago was 16.

The organiser of an away day comp has told him that next year there will be a handicap limit (also partly because several of the players without official handicaps have been coming in with 40+ points) the player turned round and said he would not be going then. Clearly to him winning the money is more important than a day out with mates.
		
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You really do meet all sorts in golf clubs (and life in general..) don’t you?
People like that is why my favourite way of playing golf is twilight solo millionaires golf


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe they have less chance of winning the net score, but they'd still have a chance. Whereas I'd imagine there are only a handful of players capable of winning the gross score, and many having absolutely zero chance. So, the lowest handicappers(s) in the field probably have a much better chance of winning the gross prize, than any individual player has of winning the net prize.

So, if I was a low handicapper, I'd be delighted if the prize money for the lowest gross was similar to lowest nett. For any player not capable of winning the gross at all, most of the field, they'd be forgiven for being a little annoyed that a significant proportion of their entry fee is being paid out to the low handicappers. It would be interesting to total up all prize money given out over the year, combining all gross and nett prizes, and see how much of those funds were given back to the lower handicappers. Then compare that to the handicap proportions making up the typical field.
		
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I agree entirely with your comments Swango.

In a medal round we have 1 winner and 3 categories split 1st 2nd and 3rd ie 10 prizes PLUS BEST Gross.

The best gross is the same amount as coming 2nd in each category.

example if the Prize Pot was £400 it would be split into 4 x£100. This is split 48%, 32% and 20%. In 3 categories. Do not ask me why!
The winner receives 68% of £100 and the best gross 32%.

In winter the Prompays out for best Gross in Stableford Competitions.


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## evemccc (Aug 4, 2022)

Genuinely, what’s the actual point of having pay-outs in amateur golf (at the standard most of us play at in our weekly / monthly medals, esp if such sandbagging and protecting of h/caps is done to the level it seems it is?

When you see some of the fancy cars regularly parked at my club then obvs any winnings is merely loose change and I am (naively?) amazed that people would and do manipulate h/caps so they can win relative peanuts by ‘beating’ other people..

The 23 H/cap referenced by @Bdill93 sounds a disgrace

If prize pots were really minimal - and for things that are only won by things people do by ‘trying’ eg 2s etc would h/cap protecting not stop?


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## evemccc (Aug 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Genuinely, what’s the actual point of having pay-outs in amateur golf (at the standard most of us play at in our weekly / monthly medals, esp if such sandbagging and protecting of h/caps is done to the level it seems it is?

When you see some of the fancy cars regularly parked at my club then obvs any winnings is merely loose change and I am (naively?) amazed that people would and do manipulate h/caps so they can win relative peanuts by ‘beating’ other people..

The 23 H/cap referenced by @Bdill93 sounds a disgrace

If prize pots were really minimal - and for things that are only won by things people do by ‘trying’ eg 2s etc would h/cap protecting not stop?
		
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I played out of my skin and beat a v low handicapper in a matchplay - but even though I was v happy with my game on that day and the result, I still didn’t get a lower gross score than him so I honestly don’t feel that I ‘beat’ him


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			I agree entirely with your comments Swango.

In a medal round we have 1 winner and 3 categories split 1st 2nd and 3rd ie 10 prizes PLUS BEST Gross.

The best gross is the same amount as coming 2nd in each category.

example if the Prize Pot was £400 it would be split into 4 x£100. This is split 48%, 32% and 20%. In 3 categories. Do not ask me why!
The winner receives 68% of £100 and the best gross 32%.

In winter the Prompays out for best Gross in Stableford Competitions.
		
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At my club, out of about 100 competitors, there are probably half a dozen who are more than likely going to win lowest gross. Unless several are not playing, and another lowish handicapper creeps in with a good round. 

So, winning one lowest gross might be close to paying for your seasons comp entry fees, maybe 2 wins tops. 

They also are statistically more likely to do well in the 2's. 

I've no major issue if the best golfers are generally getting rewarded the most I guess. But, I guess it eases their pain if they are always moaning about high handicappers. If their club hand out lowest gross prizes regularly, and further still, have handicap divisions, they could be swimming in prize money over a year. Meanwhile, there might be over 50 higher handicappers who have won nothing all year. 

Arguably, it is the mid handicappers, in general, that are worse off. Many will have plateaued to that handicap, no chance of lowest gross, nor the benefit of vastly improving on their handicap.


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## Backache (Aug 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I played out of my skin and beat a v low handicapper in a matchplay - but even though I was v happy with my game on that day and the result, I still didn’t get a lower gross score than him so I honestly don’t feel that I ‘beat’ him
		
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Personally I feel the original point of handicap is really matchplay rather than stroke play. Yes you had strokes but you still beat him because you won more holes though you won with a handicap. I aways feel in matchplay I am playing someone else whereas in stroke play I am playing the course. I pretty much ignore my placing in strokeplay and am really interested in my score and how it compares with previous scores rather than with other peoples, or on a new course how I performed against my expectations.


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