# 1 in 12 Adults have never worked.



## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2020)

Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.
		
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The reduction in youngsters working, according to the piece, was because they are concentrating on their studies. Not a bad answer although a bit of an excuse. There is definitely more pressure on them to get better results now but both of mine worked in A level years on a Saturday but managed it so that it did not interfere. It is easily manageable. 

The 1 in 12 figure is quite a shock, that is a disturbing number of people


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 4, 2020)

People are just starting jobs later in life, choosing study over job experience. Its could be a product of the efforts 20 odd years ago to get more people into University, as that is now seen as a standard choice over going into work.


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 4, 2020)

Now I know why I'm always knackered I'm doing two people's work


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The reduction in youngsters working, according to the piece, was because they are concentrating on their studies. Not a bad answer although a bit of an excuse. There is definitely more pressure on them to get better results now but both of mine worked in A level years on a Saturday but managed it so that it did not interfere. It is easily manageable.

The 1 in 12 figure is quite a shock, that is a disturbing number of people
		
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LT, outta interest, I know/ would imagine your kids would of finished with a high level of education.But would going to the university of life learning skills through work and interacting with joe public of helped.


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## Bazzatron (Jan 4, 2020)

I can see the attraction of not going to work, just dossing around all day, but when you've got sod all money to do anything it must be rubbish. I'd rather do my 37hours a week and be able to do pretty much whatever I want. Two family holidays a year vs watching Jeremy Kyle all day, no brainer.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 4, 2020)

Bazzatron said:



			I can see the attraction of not going to work, just dossing around all day, but when you've got sod all money to do anything it must be rubbish. I'd rather do my 37hours a week and be able to do pretty much whatever I want. Two family holidays a year vs watching Jeremy Kyle all day, no brainer.
		
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My parents have a woman living next door to them. Never worked a day in her life. Claims a mobility car for her friend, takes advantage of her blue badge. Smokes real cigarettes, not roll ups and has two holidays abroad a year. 

I walk round my old town and the 1 in 12 doesn’t shock me. So many teen mums destined to end up single, jobless and on universal credit. So many scruffy people who aesthetically I wouldn’t even employ to clean toilets. 

It’s unfortunate that breeding is seen as a human right.


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## arnieboy (Jan 4, 2020)

We have a cleaning job available,  have received over thirty applications but I bet fewer than half a dozen turn up for an interview.


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## stefanovic (Jan 4, 2020)

There was a man who was called a 'lazy dog'.
His name was Albert Einstein and he became the greatest scientist of the last century.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2020)

Many 'Saturday' or weekend jobs were often in the retail which is under threat. That combined with further education and student borrowing contributes to the numbers.


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## sussexhacker (Jan 4, 2020)

Doesn’t surprise me at all 
I could think of 15/20 minimum girls I went to school with who are now career “single mothers” living the high life getting free accommodation and living expenses


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## Kellfire (Jan 4, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Doesn’t surprise me at all
I could think of 15/20 minimum girls I went to school with who are now career “single mothers” living the high life getting free accommodation and living expenses
		
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Bet you can’t.


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## Backache (Jan 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s unfortunate that breeding is seen as a human right.
		
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It's certainly pretty difficult to prevent.


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## robinthehood (Jan 4, 2020)

Don't worry , brexit will fix this.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 4, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Now I know why I'm always knackered I'm doing two people's work
		
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Only two... Lightweight 😉...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			LT, outta interest, I know/ would imagine your kids would of finished with a high level of education.But would going to the university of life learning skills through work and interacting with joe public of helped.
		
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Tashy, my son worked in a garden centre and it massively helped him as it pushed him into speaking with people, of all ages. It brought him out of himself, took him out of his comfort zone. It was ideal for what he needed to improve on.

My daughter works in a dog kennels, last year of A levels so still doing it. She has to deal with owners which is good. It's also a hard, dirty job which she does in all weathers so that is a good life lesson too.

Both have benefited from their jobs, life skills, understanding what work is about, learning the value of money. I'd recommend any parent to suggest a Saturday job to their kids.


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## Neilds (Jan 4, 2020)

Being at university is not really an excuse for not working, my nephew goes into ‘lessons’ 3 times a week for a total of 5 hours - surely he isn’t too busy to get a job!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Being at university is not really an excuse for not working, my nephew goes into ‘lessons’ 3 times a week for a total of 5 hours - surely he isn’t too busy to get a job!
		
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If he is doing a proper course, big if, then he should be doing a lot of extra work in his own time. Whether he is or not is over to him. 5 hours seems very low, what is his course?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2020)

Backache said:



			It's certainly pretty difficult to prevent.
		
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I read summat the other day on FB. It said ” If you cannot feed um, don’t breed um”.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

Go back to the 80's, when we had 3 million unemployed and manual jobs being lost left right and centre. When you have whole families unable to find work is it any wonder the legacy is many never having worked a day in their life?
It seems now even bin men need degrees, or the need to speak Latvian or some other Eastern European language because many home nationals seen the work as beneath them.


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Only two... Lightweight 😉...
		
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Too knackered to do anymore .


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## MegaSteve (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.
		
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IF the figure is correct then the tories must be lying about the low unemployment numbers we are 'enjoying' under their administration...


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.
		
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The dark side of the family; its called being "on the fiddle." Where to start? Lets start with the mother, my mum's sister. She's no longer with us. She never had a full time job, or a husband for very long. Council house and on benefits. Electricity and gas meter were swapped out every quarter, then swapped back before a reading was due. A number of luxuries were bought down the pub from someone who knew someone who knew someone. She also 'fenced' things for a cut. And in her earlier years made a fair bit of cash from lying down. A couple of foreign holidays a year, at least.

Her last husband was kicked out, and was given a council bungalow. He promptly moved back in with his wife and sub-let the bungalow. Nice little earner on top of his benefits.

Her daughter pretty much mirrored her mum. Probably worked for a few years max, on and off. Didn't do the lying down 'job,' as far as I know but made a hell of a lot more from 'fencing.' She also received a lot of 'rent' from her son, who is currently on a 10 year stretch for drug dealing, protection and money laundering. The cottage in the Dales and the black Range Rover is in his mum's name, and she's been on benefits for the xx years.

The daughter's elder brother worked for 20+ years then developed a bad back, and was medically retired from his mid 40's, now pushing 70. He was fairly straight but the family rumour is his partner was "on the fiddle" big time - she's the boss. Seems to manage to get 2 or 3 foreign holidays a year + spending month on holiday in Aug in the UK with his grandkids.

The daughter's younger brother didn't work till his mid 40's. An apprenticeship didn't last long, then various back to work schemes. Very bright guy but from a very disfunctional background. Now employed as an IT specialist, has a place of his own and is, finally, happy.

The 5 grandchildren. 1 works, the rest, just look at variations of the above. Almost a 'full' extended family who have never had a full time job across over 60+ years.


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## rosecott (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.
		
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The ONS report says 1 in 10 but the majority of those are students.


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## Neilds (Jan 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If he is doing a proper course, big if, then he should be doing a lot of extra work in his own time. Whether he is or not is over to him. 5 hours seems very low, what is his course?
		
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Business and event management, even he admits it isn’t much work but he isn’t bothered about getting a job


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## DaveR (Jan 4, 2020)

No big surprise to me, our soft society has made 'scrounging' a legitimate career choice.


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## chrisd (Jan 4, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Now I know why I'm always knackered I'm doing two people's work
		
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Yep, Laurel and Hardy !


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			IF the figure is correct then the tories must be lying about the low unemployment numbers we are 'enjoying' under their administration...[/QUOTE
yes havn't they been telling us we have the lowest unemployment figures in decades
		
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## Neilds (Jan 4, 2020)

If students aren’t claiming benefits then no unemployed, figures are very artificial


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2020)

Saying one in ten or twelve adults have never worked is a rather vague statistic.  It would only make any sense if it did not include people in full time education and genuinely dissabled. It would be more informative if it showed age groups.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

I was an accountant.  But our financial department was organized, so I was also the financial office's union steward.
And also an executive board member of the local.
So...except for helping out a bit on book close week, once I got that job, I never really worked a day either! 
Except on behalf of my membership, of course.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I was an accountant.  But our financial department was organized, so I was also the financial office's union steward.
And also an executive board member of the local.
So...except for helping out a bit on book close week, once I got that job, I never really worked a day either!
Except on behalf of my membership, of course.
		
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Ah! You're making comparisons between 'being employed' and         ' working'  the two are not necessarily mutually compatible 😉


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! You're making comparisons between 'being employed' and         ' working'  the two are not necessarily mutually compatible 😉
		
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Well said.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 4, 2020)

Until its more attractive to get a job than live on on benefits then this will always be the case. In my mind if you want benefits, fine, two days a week go out and pick up dog poo in the local park, or clean graffiti, etc, earn your benefits (obviously this applies only to people who are physically able before someone accuses me of being something-ist). Maybe after a few weeks of doing community work then minimum wage in Maccy D's won't seem such a chore to get out of bed for


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Until its more attractive to get a job than live on on benefits then this will always be the case. In my mind if you want benefits, fine, two days a week go out and pick up dog poo in the local park, or clean graffiti, etc, earn your benefits (obviously this applies only to people who are physically able before someone accuses me of being something-ist). Maybe after a few weeks of doing community work then minimum wage in Maccy D's won't seem such a chore to get out of bed for
		
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Its what they do here in Spain. You get a month to find a job, after that you do community service to qualify for your benefits. Litter picking and clearing the weeds from the pavements is the most 'popular' one. You still only work part-time so that you have time to job hunt but there's no sitting on your backside out here. The super goes round in his van checking the work every day.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2020)

arnieboy said:



			We have a cleaning job available,  have received over thirty applications but I bet fewer than half a dozen turn up for an interview.
		
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Similar to portering jobs at the hospitals. Plenty apply, mainly to keep the jobcentre happy and the benefits coming rather than with any intent of actually turning up, even less actually getting the job


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

The type of jobs to which you refer do not support adults, especially adult with families.

That's why high school and university students who are physically able should all have work internships doing the entry level jobs as they complete their studies.

As they become upper classmen, they can advance to jobs that serve as a foundation to their eventual careers.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Similar to portering jobs at the hospitals. Plenty apply, mainly to keep the jobcentre happy and the benefits coming rather than with any intent of actually turning up, even less actually getting the job
		
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Do you have to report back to the job centre if applicants fail to turn up?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you have to report back to the job centre if applicants fail to turn up?
		
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I don't work in NHS recruitment anymore but we did use to get forms from Rreading jobcentre (and the other local ones) asking if a candidate turned up and if so were we offering and if not why.


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## Kellfire (Jan 4, 2020)

Maybe if the minimum wage was enough to support someone in a decent standard of living...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2020)

I did not realise that inherited wealth figures were so high.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Maybe if the minimum wage was enough to support someone in a decent standard of living...
		
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I'm afraid that's a fantasy. For a low or zero skill job, you keep increasing wages and you simply reduce the jobs available.   That or you increase inflation and so the pay rise is negated. It's a nice thought but simply not viable.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I did not realise that inherited wealth figures were so high.

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Yep, it's just a shame that nice Mr Corbyn didn't get in and redistribute some of that wealth to the rest of us.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm afraid that's a fantasy. For a low or zero skill job, you keep increasing wages and you simply reduce the jobs available.   That or you increase inflation and so the pay rise is negated. It's a nice thought but simply not viable.
		
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And what does that tell you about the whole system of a minimum wage?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			And what does that tell you about the whole system of a minimum wage?
		
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That low skilled jobs dont tend to pay high wages but at least theres a backstop in place.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That low skilled jobs dont tend to pay high wages but at least theres a backstop in place.
		
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The minimum wage should allow people to live in relative comfort. It should not condemn them to never owning property, sharing with others and having to live off low quality food and sacrifice happiness for existence. If that’s all it does, society is failing then.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

As of April, a 40 week will earn someone (adult) close to 18k on minimum wage. 
Imo that is more than enough.

It shouldn’t be a case of constantly raising wages, it should also mean making benefits less appealing. 

If people push to hard for more money, the jobs will vanish. Supermarkets and fast food places do it already. Staff complained that they aren’t paid enough to do the vital task of sitting on a till. So corps started using self check out because whilst there is an initial outlay the continued escalation of wages for a simple task we’re getting out of hand. 

We live in a world of supply and demand. Not the other way round. I grew up on social or with one parent working. We were lucky to get a weekend away somewhere every year. That made me determined to get a job so I could have more. If I’d had two holidays abroad a year, my drive could easily have been diminished.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			As of April, a 40 week will earn someone (adult) close to 18k on minimum wage.
Imo that is more than enough.

It shouldn’t be a case of constantly raising wages, it should also mean making benefits less appealing.

If people push to hard for more money, the jobs will vanish. Supermarkets and fast food places do it already. Staff complained that they aren’t paid enough to do the vital task of sitting on a till. So corps started using self check out because whilst there is an initial outlay the continued escalation of wages for a simple task we’re getting out of hand.

We live in a world of supply and demand. Not the other way round. I grew up on social or with one parent working. We were lucky to get a weekend away somewhere every year. That made me determined to get a job so I could have more. If I’d had two holidays abroad a year, my drive could easily have been diminished.
		
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All you’re doing is showing how the system is broken.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm afraid that's a fantasy. For a low or zero skill job, you keep increasing wages and you simply reduce the jobs available.   That or you increase inflation and so the pay rise is negated. It's a nice thought but simply not viable.
		
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The system of decent pay for 'low skilled jobs' seems to work well in the Scandinavian countries where they have much higher values on social inclusion.
The current  UK system seems hell bent on manufacturing a have and have not society.
Love to see some folk who berate people with low skilled jobs cope with being a gardener or a call centre worker.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			All you’re doing is showing how the system is broken.
		
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How so?

I’d argue that people have unrealistic expectations of how society should take care of them. It’s up to adults to go out and provide for themselves. Minimum wage 40 hour jobs pay enough. 

People simply aren’t willing to work 40 hours for what they see is little extra than what’s handed to them.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The system of decent pay for 'low skilled jobs' seems to work well in the Scandinavian countries where they have much higher values on social inclusion.
The current  UK system seems hell bent on manufacturing a have and have not society.
Love to see some folk who berate people with low skilled jobs cope with being a gardener or a call centre worker.
		
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People don’t berate low skilled workers, but not everyone will earn top wage. It doesn’t mean we should over pay for something out of some sort of desire to make the world fair. That’s not how it works.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The minimum wage should allow people to live in relative comfort.
		
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Living in comfort does not include the latest phone and contract, Sky tv, smoking, latest car, takeaway's 7 times a week or own 4 bedroom house.
Sadly too many do, then complain they have no money.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Living in comfort does not include the latest phone and contract, Sky tv, smoking, latest car, takeaway's 7 times a week or own 4 bedroom house.
Sadly too many do, then complain they have no money.
		
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You’re coming across as incredibly elitist and a snob.

It should allow for a reasonable quality of life that doesn’t cause a massive gap between the rest of society. It should allow people to have things like a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise. 

Society has changed and without these things that are now basically a bare minimum to engage and enjoy life, the problem of disenfranchisement from society will only perpetuate. That’s brings its own issues - crime, family breakdowns, mental health and other health issues.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You’re coming across as incredibly elitist and a snob.

It should allow for a reasonable quality of life that doesn’t cause a massive gap between the rest of society. It should allow people to have things like a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.

Society has changed and without these things that are now basically a bare minimum to engage and enjoy life, the problem of disenfranchisement from society will only perpetuate. That’s brings its own issues - crime, family breakdowns, mental health and other health issues.
		
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So what would you do if you were in charge?


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So what would you do if you were in charge?
		
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Close tax loopholes. Tax the rich more. Try to close the gap between the haves and the have nots.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2020)

So you'd raise the minimum wage?


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So you'd raise the minimum wage?
		
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That would be an ultimate aim, yes. How would I do that directly? I don’t know.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			That would be an ultimate aim, yes. How would I do that directly? I don’t know.
		
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What would you consider 'enough' to be able to have a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



*As of April, a 40 week will earn someone (adult) close to 18k on minimum wage.
Imo that is more than enough.*

It shouldn’t be a case of constantly raising wages, it should also mean making benefits less appealing.

If people push to hard for more money, the jobs will vanish. Supermarkets and fast food places do it already. Staff complained that they aren’t paid enough to do the vital task of sitting on a till. So corps started using self check out because whilst there is an initial outlay the continued escalation of wages for a simple task we’re getting out of hand.

We live in a world of supply and demand. Not the other way round. I grew up on social or with one parent working. We were lucky to get a weekend away somewhere every year. That made me determined to get a job so I could have more. If I’d had two holidays abroad a year, my drive could easily have been diminished.
		
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Surely that depends on individual circumstances? ie, location, age, responsibilities etc.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely that depends on individual circumstances? ie, location, age, responsibilities etc.
		
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National minimum for over 25. Not living wage. £8.52 an hour. 18k a year. 

If they’re a parent etc or have legit reasons for not working I’m not suggesting they don’t deserve help. But if they’re simply full time on social, benefits imo shouldn’t surpass that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You’re coming across as incredibly elitist and a snob.

It should allow for a reasonable quality of life that doesn’t cause a massive gap between the rest of society. It should allow people to have things like a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.

Society has changed and without these things that are now basically a bare minimum to engage and enjoy life, the problem of disenfranchisement from society will only perpetuate. That’s brings its own issues - crime, family breakdowns, mental health and other health issues.
		
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A snob? I'm working class, grew up the eldest of 3 boys with a mum that stayed home to look after us and a dad that worked for not a lot on the maintenance side of Chatham Dockyard. He was also a union rep.Money was tight.
 We had no car, my parents didnt smoke, took 1 weeks holiday a year at Butlins, wore hand-me-downs, ate everything that was put on our plate and had instilled in us that if you didnt work hard at school and in life you didn't get far or went without.
Minimum wage and the benfit system are about supporting people and making sure they can have a roof over their heads, and eat. It's not about giving them the luxuries of life they think they deserve when others who might work/work harder and longer go without to get by. Benefits are not an entitlement, and minimum wage is there to make sure those who do at least try to work get a minimum amount.
If I wanted socialisim of the extreme, I would emmigrate to North Korea.

And elements of the Labour party wonder why they did so badly in the last GE.


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## pendodave (Jan 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What would you consider 'enough' to be able to have a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.?
		
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If someone does a week's honest toil, that seems reasonable enough.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Close tax loopholes. Tax the rich more. Try to close the gap between the haves and the have nots.
		
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Fully agree re loopholes. Not so much the rest. 



Bunkermagnet said:



			A snob? I'm working class, grew up the eldest of 3 boys with a mum that stayed home to look after us and a dad that worked for not a lot on the maintenance side of Chatham Dockyard. He was also a union rep.Money was tight.
 We had no car, my parents didnt smoke, took 1 weeks holiday a year at Butlins, wore hand-me-downs, ate everything that was put on our plate and had instilled in us that if you didnt work hard at school and in life you didn't get far or went without.
Minimum wage and the benfit system are about supporting people and making sure they can have a roof over their heads, and eat. It's not about giving them the luxuries of life they think they deserve when others who might work/work harder and longer go without to get by. Benefits are not an entitlement, and minimum wage is there to make sure those who do at least try to work get a minimum amount.
If I wanted socialisim of the extreme, I would emmigrate to North Korea.

And elements of the Labour party wonder why they did so badly in the last GE.
		
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Spot on. 

People earn luxuries. Not deserve them. If a kid says “I want, I want” all the time and gets it. They’re considered spoilt. Why then must we suddenly give adults everything for nothing?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 5, 2020)

Big changes are already underway in the work place that will mean the traditional concept of there being enough 'well paid' work for everyone will go.  The gig economy, easy movement of capital and resources plus ever increasing automation means economies like ours will need to rethink how we generate enough wealth for the majority of society to have a decent standard of living. 

Labour and indeed other nations such as Finland are beginning to address this a bit with concepts like universal basic income. Trouble is that it gets badly reported and sold with headlines like 'Labour promises 4 day weeks'. Plus as can be seen on this thread, the concept of people getting money for anything other than what is perceived as a 'hard days work', is a hard sell.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			National minimum for over 25. Not living wage. £8.52 an hour. 18k a year.

If they’re a parent etc or have legit reasons for not working I’m not suggesting they don’t deserve help. But if they’re simply full time on social, benefits imo shouldn’t surpass that.
		
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Basic benefit for over 25 is £73.10 per week, no where near the National Minimum wage.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Basic benefit for over 25 is £73.10 per week, no where near the National Minimum wage.
		
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Yes the basic benefit. Like I've said. I've no issue with legit claims. But those miking the system, having rent paid etc. Aren't doing it for £73 a week.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Yes the basic benefit. Like I've said. I've no issue with legit claims. But those miking the system, having rent paid etc. Aren't doing it for £73 a week.
		
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I’m out mate, somebody needing housed isn’t milking the system, there are good and bad in all walks of life and the poorest are suffering the most, otherwise we wouldn’t have child poverty, foodbanks and homelessness on the rise.
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger as some would have you believe.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What would you consider 'enough' to be able to have a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.?
		
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Again - I don’t know but it currently isn’t enough. Please stop trying to trap me in semantics as if they lessen my overall point.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Again - I don’t know but it currently isn’t enough. Please stop trying to trap me in semantics as if they lessen my overall point.
		
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I'm not trying to trap you at all.
You complain it's not enough but when pressed, you don't know how much is enough or how it should be paid for.


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## SatchFan (Jan 5, 2020)

I don't have a smartphone. Can I claim benefits?


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm not trying to trap you at all.
You complain it's not enough but when pressed, you don't know how much is enough or how it should be paid for.
		
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You know that’s not a reasonable argument. If we only ever questioned government policy when we ourselves knew the exact way to rectify the situation, we wouldn’t really need a government. Their job is to gain the knowledge and expertise to benefit society. 

I don’t know exactly how golf clubs are designed and manufactured but I know I need them to play golf.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m out mate, somebody needing housed isn’t milking the system, there are good and bad in all walks of life and the poorest are suffering the most, otherwise we wouldn’t have child poverty, foodbanks and homelessness on the rise.
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger as some would have you believe.
		
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To be clear. I didn’t say claiming housing meant they were milking the system. 

I simply meant that those that are, aren’t claiming just £71. I’ve grown up knowing enough that milk it. I also realise that they cost us less than tax dodgers. But I’ve known more that milk the system than avoid tax. Hence they annoy me more.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You know that’s not a reasonable argument.
		
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I'm not making an argument.
You said the minimum wage was not enough and I asked you how much you thought was enough just to see if we were in agreement.
Your 'reasonable' arguement is I don't know how much it should be or how it would be paid for.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm not an economist. I had some economics classes in  school, but I was mostly reading the racing forms and doing my handicapping during those classes.
I'm not even that much of an accountant.  I was the union steward for the financial department, first and foremost,  and today, I pay some young Greek lady to do my taxes.

My general view, though, is that retail prices could stand to get higher in America if that would result in people receiving a livable wage. Many of us have too much stuff--not only more than what we need but even more than we really want--and some people have next to nothing.

I only wish that America were as socially progressive as your country.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

The Minimum Wage is now called the Living Wage and is set to increase by three times the rate of inflation this April.


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm not saying that everyone can work but when I see my local tescos is employing a girl with serious autism and  member of our fire service (non operational) had his legs and two fingers blown off in Afghanistan then you better have a good excuse.  my brother in law "can't" work because of his anxiety. funny how his anxiety goes away on giro day


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The Minimum Wage is now called the Living Wage and is set to increase by three times the rate of inflation this April.
		
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have you fact checked this? because its slightly incorrect

the minimum wage is called the national minimum wage

the national living wage applies to those over 25 only

and neither are the LIVING wage which is set by a indipendent body with 2 rates one for national one for london 

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/national-minimum-wage

*What’s the difference between the National Living Wage and the Living Wage?*
The National Living Wage:

is the highest rate of the National Minimum wage (currently £8.21 an hour)
is set by government
must be paid to all workers over 25
The Living Wage:

is set by the Living Wage Foundation
applies to all worker over 18
is voluntary – employers can choose whether to pay it
has two rates – a UK rate (£9.00 an hour), and a London rate (£10.55 an hour)


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The minimum wage should allow people to live in relative comfort. It should not condemn them to never owning property, sharing with others and having to live off low quality food and sacrifice happiness for existence. If that’s all it does, society is failing then.
		
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Totally agree but we don't live in anything like an ideal world. And, in reality, society isn't failing. The thing that gets in the way is world economics.

Starting from the ground up, if you pay the cleaner £xx more an hour you'll have to up the wage of the technician. And if you up the wage of the technician, you'll need to up the wage of the supervisor. And if you up the wage of the technician you'll need to up the wage of the secretary, and that of her supervisor. Then there's the manager's wages. And so on and so on up it goes. End result being that the company stops being competitive in the global market and folds.

So how do you raise the standard of living of the lower paid if you can't raise the minimum wage high enough, AND you aren't allowed to subsidise the company due to EU/competition rules? You pay benefits. Its subsidy by the back door. Its needs benefits and tax breaks to be high enough and widespread enough to raise the standard of living but you're still hamstrung by the same equation of how far up the work/wage level do you go up with the benefits/subsidies?

That's a very short version. Pretty sure you can broaden that out.


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## RulesGuy (Jan 5, 2020)

My first time here and I am really impressed by the high level of contributions (the proponents of eugenics excepted). We can all cite anecdotes – I have played golf with a few people and discovered over a pint in the clubhouse they were unpleasant, vile racists. Doesn't get us very far does it?

I have worked in this field for over 25 years and seen literally thousands of people in their homes. To suggest that people en masse are milking the system and living the high life is incorrect.  Yes there will be cases like the ex lady captain fraudulently claiming disability benefits but these are outweighed many fold by those not claiming benefits they are entitled to.

Yes there are and always have been criminal families and families where nobody in generations have worked. Are we suggesting children should suffer as a result?.

75% of those with long term mental health problems do not work.

A single mother with 3 children is entitled to £179.00 income based benefits per week. This amount has to cover food, water, electricity, gas, phone, TV licence, internet, clothes, insurance, council tax, transport, laundry etc etc.

55% of the Department of Work & Pension's budget goes on pensions

A couple earning £100k can claim £2.5k child benefit

Internet connection is obligatory for school homework

I for one do not want to live in a society where I have to step between homeless people on the streets of our great towns and cities.  I don't want my fellow citizens to suffer the humiliation of proving their entitlement to receive charity from a food bank. I don't want to see a disheveled underclass whilst I am out shopping.  We are a very wealthy country and I suppose it comes down to our values as to how this wealth should be distributed.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

RulesGuy said:



			My first time here and I am really impressed by the high level of contributions (the proponents of eugenics excepted). We can all cite anecdotes – I have played golf with a few people and discovered over a pint in the clubhouse they were unpleasant, vile racists. Doesn't get us very far does it?

I have worked in this field for over 25 years and seen literally thousands of people in their homes. To suggest that people en masse are milking the system and living the high life is incorrect.  Yes there will be cases like the ex lady captain fraudulently claiming disability benefits but these are outweighed many fold by those not claiming benefits they are entitled to.

Yes there are and always have been criminal families and families where nobody in generations have worked. Are we suggesting children should suffer as a result?.

75% of those with long term mental health problems do not work.

A single mother with 3 children is entitled to £179.00 income based benefits per week. This amount has to cover food, water, electricity, gas, phone, TV licence, internet, clothes, insurance, council tax, transport, laundry etc etc.

55% of the Department of Work & Pension's budget goes on pensions

A couple earning £100k can claim £2.5k child benefit

Internet connection is obligatory for school homework

I for one do not want to live in a society where I have to step between homeless people on the streets of our great towns and cities.  I don't want my fellow citizens to suffer the humiliation of proving their entitlement to receive charity from a food bank. I don't want to see a disheveled underclass whilst I am out shopping.  We are a very wealthy country and I suppose it comes down to our values as to how this wealth should be distributed.
		
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Good comments.  In your work did you find that many people needing state support were Mothers with Children where the Father was absent and took no responsibility for the upkeep of his children.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 5, 2020)

RulesGuy said:



			My first time here and I am really impressed by the high level of contributions (the proponents of eugenics excepted). We can all cite anecdotes – I have played golf with a few people and discovered over a pint in the clubhouse they were unpleasant, vile racists. Doesn't get us very far does it?

I have worked in this field for over 25 years and seen literally thousands of people in their homes. To suggest that people en masse are milking the system and living the high life is incorrect.  Yes there will be cases like the ex lady captain fraudulently claiming disability benefits but these are outweighed many fold by those not claiming benefits they are entitled to.

Yes there are and always have been criminal families and families where nobody in generations have worked. Are we suggesting children should suffer as a result?.

75% of those with long term mental health problems do not work.

A single mother with 3 children is entitled to £179.00 income based benefits per week. This amount has to cover food, water, electricity, gas, phone, TV licence, internet, clothes, insurance, council tax, transport, laundry etc etc.

55% of the Department of Work & Pension's budget goes on pensions

A couple earning £100k can claim £2.5k child benefit

Internet connection is obligatory for school homework

I for one do not want to live in a society where I have to step between homeless people on the streets of our great towns and cities.  I don't want my fellow citizens to suffer the humiliation of proving their entitlement to receive charity from a food bank. I don't want to see a disheveled underclass whilst I am out shopping.  We are a very wealthy country and I suppose it comes down to our values as to how this wealth should be distributed.
		
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There are parts of that read that are excellent, and parts I read and think hmmmm. Single mother with 3 kids gets £179 per week. How much off CSA and if nowt, why not. What about single mothers with multiple children off multiple fathers. What about my adopted Daughter who was adamant she was having children and a fully furnished council house paid so by us. She has never had any intentions of doing a days work. She has never done a days work.  Now living with 2 kids, fully furnished house.She has got her wish. She has not spoken to me and Missis T for over 2 years coz I told her I did not think it was acceptable to be taking drugs in front of children. How can a single parent afford drugs when they are supposed to be living on the bread line.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Totally agree but we don't live in anything like an ideal world. And, in reality, society isn't failing. The thing that gets in the way is world economics.

Starting from the ground up, if you pay the cleaner £xx more an hour you'll have to up the wage of the technician. And if you up the wage of the technician, you'll need to up the wage of the supervisor. And if you up the wage of the technician you'll need to up the wage of the secretary, and that of her supervisor. Then there's the manager's wages. And so on and so on up it goes. End result being that the company stops being competitive in the global market and folds.

So how do you raise the standard of living of the lower paid if you can't raise the minimum wage high enough, AND you aren't allowed to subsidise the company due to EU/competition rules? You pay benefits. Its subsidy by the back door. Its needs benefits and tax breaks to be high enough and widespread enough to raise the standard of living but you're still hamstrung by the same equation of how far up the work/wage level do you go up with the benefits/subsidies?

That's a very short version. Pretty sure you can broaden that out.
		
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Yes this is a real problem, my brother is the GMB shop steward at a Hospital in London, every time the minimum wage goes up he gets grief from the next tiers of workers.
The bottom tier, mop jockeys, porters (plumber’s?) etc come and go, turn up late, often miss days. The next tier the security guards have to pass DBS checks, cannot have time off and have a strict rota. They are on about £1.20 an hour more than the lower tier and are not happy. 
I know @Kellfire is wearing his Comrade Corbyn Cap when he says pay them enough for a comfortable life but it’s not practical and can stop people aspiring to better themselves.


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## Kellfire (Jan 5, 2020)

Keeping people living unhappy lives to encourage ambition. 

That’s whole new levels of spin.


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## chrisd (Jan 5, 2020)

There always has been, and always will be, those people who are the lowest and the highest of earners in our country. Unless we adopt a communist economy that will never change but if we were to adopt their philosophy, there would still be oligarch billionaires cheating the system.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The minimum wage should allow people to live in relative comfort. It should not condemn them to never owning property, sharing with others and having to live off low quality food and sacrifice happiness for existence. If that’s all it does, society is failing then.
		
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What do you think the minimum wage should be?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2020)

Del_Boy said:



			What do you think the minimum wage should be?
		
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The minimum wage should be the living wage. Not set by gov but a lot of companies try to stick to it 

Whilst not a lot more than min wage it allows for more and in London the rate is slightly higher 

Also ban zero hour contracts and give contracted hours so people get a fair min income rather than a bit one month and none the next


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2020)

chrisd said:



			There always has been, and always will be, those people who are the lowest and the highest of earners in our country. Unless we adopt a communist economy that will never change but if we were to adopt their philosophy, there would still be oligarch billionaires cheating the system.
		
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Surely being on slow wage is different from being a wage so low it needs state support?


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## Wolf (Jan 5, 2020)

Im really not surprised at all that it's  1in 12. My wife's cousin is 43, she's never worked a day in her life, yet has a 4bedroom house in Croydon, all the latest gadgets, sky tv and 2 holidays a year. Shes eveb brazen enough to say what's the point working when she can get more money by doing nothing....


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## Del_Boy (Jan 5, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The minimum wage should be the living wage. Not set by gov but a lot of companies try to stick to it

Whilst not a lot more than min wage it allows for more and in London the rate is slightly higher

Also ban zero hour contracts and give contracted hours so people get a fair min income rather than a bit one month and none the next
		
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I was after a number.  Also why ban zero hour contracts there are people who like the flexibility this gives them


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2020)

Del_Boy said:



			I was after a number.  Also why ban zero hour contracts there are people who like the flexibility this gives them
		
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The number is clearly in my.post earlier 

Currently 9.30 per hour out of London 

10.75 per hour in London 


Min hours would give people this. Even if was min 10 hours a week leas people wouldn't get nothing one week and something the next 

What about zero hours where they can't take other jobs then are given no hours?


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## Del_Boy (Jan 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Close tax loopholes. Tax the rich more. Try to close the gap between the haves and the have nots.
		
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What is your definition of rich and how much more should they be taxed?


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## RulesGuy (Jan 5, 2020)

There are a fair amount of absent fathers who don't pay maintenance or arrange their affairs to pay as little as possible.  This is particularly hard on many (usually) women . A claimant does not get an additional amount for a third or subsequent child unless conceived through rape/multiple births etc.  I have seen people from all walks of life from rich businessmen who have had a major life changing incident through to people with severe learning disabilities and everyone in between.

I think people would be surprised how difficult it is to claim disability benefits.  They are not widely publicised and are often refused with few people appealing to the tribunal where 70% of decisions are overturned.


SocketRocket said:



			Good comments.  In your work did you find that many people needing state support were Mothers with Children where the Father was absent and took no responsibility for the upkeep of his children.
		
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## Del_Boy (Jan 5, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The number is clearly in my.post earlier

Currently 9.30 per hour out of London

10.75 per hour in London


Min hours would give people this. Even if was min 10 hours a week leas people wouldn't get nothing one week and something the next

What about zero hours where they can't take other jobs then are given no hours?
		
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Apologies re read your post and got your numbers.

Agree zero hour contracts should have flexibility on both sides


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 5, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Saw a piece on the news earlier saying how Saturday jobs for young ins are dying out. It showed a headline from one of the papers saying that one in twelve adults have never done a days work in there life. How have these people survived. Don’t get me wrong am sure there are some genuine reasons as to why. But 1 in 12 seems quite a lot.
		
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My lad (19) has been doing part time work since 16, working at the golf club and then AG, where he still works when back from Uni. In one of his first uni business classes, they were asked who had done any work before uni, only 3 students out of a class of 27 had done any kind of work beforehand.


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## chrisd (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Surely being on slow wage is different from being a wage so low it needs state support?
		
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Doesn't it depend on the nature of the work. Where I work bar staff are on zero hour contracts and about 50p an hour over the minimum wage. One or two are just supplementing the home income where their other half earns good money and others are no doubt entitled to benefits. As has been said though, if the minimum wage goes up then the rest of the workforce want t least the same increase to keep the differential- quite understandably I'd say.


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## sussexhacker (Jan 5, 2020)

I don’t have a problem with people claiming when they are in need ie between jobs/ extenuating circumstances etc 

One of the problems at least round here is that there aren’t any catch ups on what’s going on with these people 

Someone who started working with me around 6 months ago still has his rent paid for him even though he’s been earning enough to cover it himself since he started 

Also people expect to be housed when they shouldn’t be. One of my missus friends found out she was pregnant and with her other half (both of them work full time) they went straight to the council and asked for somewhere to live before they even thought of getting somewhere for themselves even though they could afford it


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

Unemployment benifits should always be assistance to get someone into a job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			I don’t have a problem with people claiming when they are in need ie between jobs/ extenuating circumstances etc

One of the problems at least round here is that there aren’t any catch ups on what’s going on with these people

Someone who started working with me around 6 months ago still has his rent paid for him even though he’s been earning enough to cover it himself since he started

Also people expect to be housed when they shouldn’t be. One of my missus friends found out she was pregnant and with her other half (both of them work full time) they went straight to the council and asked for somewhere to live before they even thought of getting somewhere for themselves even though they could afford it
		
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It is his responsibility to inform DWP he has employment and circumstances have changed, and he will have to pay back the rent.
If he hasn’t told them then it’s fraud.
As for the pregnant friend, unless she is single and homeless, she has no right to accommodation, but is perfectly entitled to enquire about social housing.


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## sussexhacker (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It is his responsibility to inform DWP he has employment and circumstances have changed, and he will have to pay back the rent.
If he hasn’t told them then it’s fraud.
As for the pregnant friend, unless she is single and homeless, she has no right to accommodation, but is perfectly entitled to enquire about social housing.
		
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She’s not single and I think if they could have afforded housing on their own then they have no right to jump the queue when others are in more need 
It only took them 2 months to get a place


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			She’s not single and I think if they could have afforded housing on their own then they have no right to jump the queue when others are in more need
It only took them 2 months to get a place
		
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So a married couple?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2020)

Aren’t wages for the lower paid and trades especially going to be increasing once we leave the EU in any case?  That would surely encourage those not currently in work into the workplace and training.


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## sussexhacker (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So a married couple?
		
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Engaged


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Engaged
		
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Possibly different rules for different councils, but in the NE an engaged couple can’t apply for a joint tenancy, they can both apply separately for housing and once the application is filled out and submitted their cases will be assessed accordingly.
Some housing comes with strict rules, ie, you’re not allowed to move a “partner” in on a permanent basis and some allow it.
Obviously the system relies on honesty and without that, undeserving cases can get through.
I’ve known people get Social Housing in less than 2 weeks in my role as a RBL Case Worker,  so 2 months in some ways is not that quick.


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## sussexhacker (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Possibly different rules for different councils, but in the NE an engaged couple can’t apply for a joint tenancy, they can both apply separately for housing and once the application is filled out and submitted their cases will be assessed accordingly.
Some housing comes with strict rules, ie, you’re not allowed to move a “partner” in on a permanent basis and some allow it.
Obviously the system relies on honesty and without that, undeserving cases can get through.
I’ve known people get Social Housing in less than 2 weeks in my role as a RBL Case Worker,  so 2 months in some ways is not that quick.
		
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There’s quite a long waiting list around here, I’ve heard stories of people who have been waiting 3/4 years and keep being pushed back for people who are in more urgent need


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			There’s quite a long waiting list around here, I’ve heard stories of people who have been waiting 3/4 years and keep being pushed back for people who are in more urgent need
		
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You can get that anywhere, but they tend to be those on the lowest priority, ie, already housed but want to move area etc.
Any system relies on honesty of the applicants.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2020)

What I'm sure most people could agree with council houses etc is it should be accessed a lot 

Like old Bob crow (not to speak ill of the dead) famously leader of the RMT for years whilst living in a council house .. hardly poor .. quite possibly the most powerful man in London at the time.

My wife's grandparents still live in a 3 bed council house. Very much can't afford to move. Just state pension etc 

However that said they could easily downsize it's just them 

Almost like the council should be able to say hey others need this we can offer you this lovely retirement flat


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aren’t wages for the lower paid and trades especially going to be increasing once we leave the EU in any case?  That would surely encourage those not currently in work into the workplace and training.
		
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Why do you think that, maybe you can show where such a policy of increasing wages has been suggested?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 6, 2020)

But on the other hand 11 out of 12 have worked.  And perhaps if those that have/do work and are relatively well off like, lets face it everyone on this board, got slightly less angry about those that do need a bit of help then the world may be a better place. And they would enjoy their lives a bit more being thankful for what they have got.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But on the other hand 11 out of 12 have worked.  And perhaps if those that have/do work and are relatively well off like, lets face it everyone on this board, got slightly less angry about those that do need a bit of help then the world may be a better place. And they would enjoy their lives a bit more being thankful for what they have got.
		
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You are quite right. What gripes though is that for every 9 people who are genuine and need help there will be that 1 person who works the system and that is the one we remember, the one that winds people up. It is human nature to remember the bad example. Let's face it, that 1 person is really, really irritating and annoying so our minds have to work hard to get past them and get to the ones we need to look after. A step back every so often is good advice though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you think that, maybe you can show where such a policy of increasing wages has been suggested?
		
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Sorry - I thought that one of the reasons many folks voted to leave the EU was in the expectation that wages would go up once Eastern Europeans were less influential in keeping wages depressed.  I am sure I heard that said many times.  I certainly didn't hear any lead Leave campaigner tell these folks that they were mistaken holding such an expectation.

Must have misheard.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But on the other hand 11 out of 12 have worked.  And perhaps if those that have/do work and are relatively well off like, lets face it everyone on this board, got slightly less angry about those that do need a bit of help then the world may be a better place. And they would enjoy their lives a bit more being thankful for what they have got.
		
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My sons girlfriend (24yrs) has not worked for last 4 years - and prior to that she did a little bit of teaching in a dance class paid diddly-squat.  

But she claims nothing from the state.  We think she should be the way - it might force her into looking for work - something that seems she is incapable of doing herself - because meanwhile my son has to provide for both.

And as for him.  His income is way beneath the average but also claims nothing.  His month-to-month (week-to-week) income is hugely variable.  He can't sign on for JSA as he could get work at any time - he just doesn't know when it will turn up.  And as I understand it if he is not signed-on he cannot claim any further benefits.  

And he has mates on zero hours contracts who are in a similar bind.  Trying to manage on income from zero hours contract as all the work that they can get - when some weeks that income can be zero - but they can't sign-on as they might get work the next week and so would invalidate their benefits entitlement - seems to me to be a complete nightmare working on zero hours contracts and somehow looking to the state for support.  What a system.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2020)

If what’s being offered is week to week zero hour contracts with regular periods of no hours being offered…. why not take 2 or 3 such jobs. The company that contacts you by _xyz_ deadline for the following week with an offer of _abc _number of days/hours of work gets your services, the others lose out on securing you for that week/didn’t want you anyway


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

Slab said:



			If what’s being offered is week to week zero hour contracts with regular periods of no hours being offered…. why not take 2 or 3 such jobs. The company that contacts you by _xyz_ deadline for the following week with an offer of _abc _number of days/hours of work gets your services, the others lose out on securing you for that week/didn’t want you anyway 

Click to expand...

Once you knock them back once or twice will they ask again? Plenty more people to choose from for zero hours contract work, it is rarely skilled.

It is a viscious cycle to be in and one that ideally you need to break I would suggest.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Once you knock them back once or twice will they ask again? Plenty more people to choose from for zero hours contract work, it is rarely skilled.

It is a viscious cycle to be in and one that ideally you need to break I would suggest.
		
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Yeah there’s a smidge of flippancy in my post as the ‘control’ in that relationship is seldom going to lie with the worker. As you say the cycle has to be broken and that will take a political action to tighten the loophole that allows this type of contract for what are clearly 'normal ongoing jobs' but they seem preoccupied with other matters to pay this much heed 
(although I wonder whether they would look after the electorate and scrap zero hour contracts other than exceptions, even if they had a free afternoon to discuss it)


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

Slab said:



			Yeah there’s a smidge of flippancy in my post as the ‘control’ in that relationship is seldom going to lie with the worker. As you say the cycle has to be broken and that will take a political action to tighten the loophole that allows this type of contract for what are clearly 'normal ongoing jobs' but they seem preoccupied with other matters to pay this much heed
(although I wonder whether they would look after the electorate and scrap zero hour contracts other than exceptions, even if they had a free afternoon to discuss it)
		
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I don't think a Conservative govt would scrap them as they love the idea of 'flexibility'. We all know what that really means, low wage economy, staff easy to sack, but is not healthy imo. They are a very sad introduction into the workplace.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2020)

L


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I thought that one of the reasons many folks voted to leave the EU was in the expectation that wages would go up once Eastern Europeans were less influential in keeping wages depressed.  I am sure I heard that said many times.  I certainly didn't hear any lead Leave campaigner tell these folks that they were mistaken holding such an expectation.

Must have misheard.
		
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How  naive of me to  believe you were not wormtounging


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			L

How  naive of me to  believe you were not wormtounging
		
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You don't 'wormtongue' someone - if you have read LotR you'll know who Grima Wormtongue is and the relationship he has with the King of the Rohans.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2020)

This is what wealthy civilised countries do.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...nister-sanna-marin/ar-BBYDyNo?ocid=spartandhp


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This is what wealthy civilised countries do.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...nister-sanna-marin/ar-BBYDyNo?ocid=spartandhp

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Bummer when you are paid an hourly rate or work on piece time. 

Who gets employed for the 1 day that needs filling if others are only working 4 days? Can you live on 1 day a week salary, would you be bothered going in? I work with a company in Finland, it will be interesting to speak to them about this, the practicalities of this.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This is what wealthy civilised countries do.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...nister-sanna-marin/ar-BBYDyNo?ocid=spartandhp

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The thought of working 24 hours a week would scare the pants off a lot of people.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This is what wealthy civilised countries do.

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To me, YOU have a civilized country!  The US is the most socially regressive of all developed Western nations.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bummer when you are paid an hourly rate or work on piece time. 

Who gets employed for the 1 day that needs filling if others are only working 4 days? Can you live on 1 day a week salary, would you be bothered going in? I work with a company in Finland, it will be interesting to speak to them about this, the practicalities of this.
		
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A firm in the uk Did something similar , 4 day weeks but without the 6 hours. They said people were happier and worked harder

It's not a case of who works that one day it's managing it correctly 

You could completely shut the firm every Wednesday or Friday for example .. if the work is still done it doesn't cost to close the extra day 

Or you stagger it so 20% of the work force has Monday off , Tuesday, wednesday , Thursday and Friday..

It's not a case of right everyone you work 4 days and Jeff you work every Friday ..


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48125411


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## Tashyboy (Jan 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48125411

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problem is PJ, a few nurses went flexi retirement. When they went back, they were expected to do 5 days work in 3 days. They ended up finishing altogether. 
Not saying it’s not a good idea, but it’s not for all.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A firm in the uk Did something similar , 4 day weeks but without the 6 hours. They said people were happier and worked harder

It's not a case of who works that one day it's managing it correctly

You could completely shut the firm every Wednesday or Friday for example .. if the work is still done it doesn't cost to close the extra day

Or you stagger it so 20% of the work force has Monday off , Tuesday, wednesday , Thursday and Friday..

It's not a case of right everyone you work 4 days and Jeff you work every Friday ..
		
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I was being a bit glib, realistically you would stagger the week as you say. I believe it can work in certain lines of work but would be totally impractical in others, particularly when people are wanting the same salary. I don't believe that on the whole the UK has the type of economy that lends itself to this policy.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was being a bit glib, realistically you would stagger the week as you say. I believe it can work in certain lines of work but would be totally impractical in others, particularly when people are wanting the same salary. I don't believe that on the whole the UK has the type of economy that lends itself to this policy.
		
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It's something we as a country might have to start looking into to share the wealth around 

Automation of many jobs will mean less people needed for excisting jobs. Putting more and more people out of work.

Maybe not something for my generation to worry about but my daughter's I'd say will face this


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's something we as a country might have to start looking into to share the wealth around

Automation of many jobs will mean less people needed for excisting jobs. Putting more and more people out of work.

Maybe not something for my generation to worry about but my daughter's I'd say will face this
		
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Automation is a great worry, I agree with you. The question is will everyone be happy to take a drop in salary to account for the extra staff a 4 day week will bring? Can you see many lining up for that? You can start a new company up working this way but changing existing contracts will be a tough sell.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Automation of many jobs will mean less people needed for excisting jobs. Putting more and more people out of work.
		
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My dad was saying the same thing back in the late 70's, early 80's....when we had manufacturing jobs.


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## robinthehood (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Automation is a great worry, I agree with you. The question is will everyone be happy to take a drop in salary to account for the extra staff a 4 day week will bring? Can you see many lining up for that? You can start a new company up working this way but changing existing contracts will be a tough sell.
		
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It does also open up opportunities, my job  is becoming more and more automated, I'm just making sure it's me who picking up the new skills and doing the automating 😉


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It does also open up opportunities, my job  is becoming more and more automated, I'm just making sure it's me who picking up the new skills and doing the automating 😉
		
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Big concern automation...when google and Uber (or whoever) sort out the driverless car which will lead to the driverless van and trucks for 10s of millions of workers worldwide it will be a disaster.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It does also open up opportunities, my job  is becoming more and more automated, I'm just making sure it's me who picking up the new skills and doing the automating 😉
		
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Smart move 😁. The key jobs in so many factories now are the person who programmes the equipment or perhaps more importantly fixes it when it breaks. The others are becoming superfluous.

I saw a Greg Wallace,  In The Factory thingy before Christmas where he was at Rowntree's, the Kitkat factory. Once they had been packed in boxe a robotic fork lift picked up the pallet from the production area and took them to the warehouse. Another robotic fork lift put it onto a racking system until they were required for an order. At that point the robot picked out the pallet and loaded it onto a vehicle. No human was involved at all. The only human in the very large warehouse was the bloke on the gantry checking the computer screen to make sure all of the robots were working correctly. There was no one on the warehouse floor. A sad sight 😢


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are quite right. What gripes though is that for every 9 people who are genuine and need help there will be that 1 person who works the system and that is the one we remember, the one that winds people up. It is human nature to remember the bad example. *Let's face it, that 1 person is really, really irritating and annoying so our minds have to work hard to get past them *and get to the ones we need to look after. A step back every so often is good advice though.
		
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Say no more LT we all know who you mean. 😜


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