# Does God Exist?



## Snelly (Nov 22, 2012)

After starting one contentious thread and seeing the excitement and energy (not all of it positive) it brought, I thought I would start another.  I thought religion might be a calmer debate than forum moderation so here goes....

Does God exist?  Well the answer is no in my opinion but plenty would disagree.

Here are a few thoughts to start things off.... not my original thinking, just copied in.

There are literally thousands of religions being practiced today. Here are 20 of the most popular, along with an estimate of the number of followers: 

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand
[Source: Encyclopedia 
Britannica] 

If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today.  It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in. 

In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject God. You think their gods are maginary, and they think your God is imaginary. 
In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them. 
The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely: 

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." 
A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary. How do we know that they are imaginary? Simply imagine that one of them is real. If one of these thousands of gods were actually real, then his followers would be experiencing real, undeniable benefits. These benefits would be obvious to everyone. The followers of a true god would pray, and their prayers would be answered. The followers of a true god would therefore live longer, have fewer diseases, have lots more money, etc. There would be thousands of statistical markers surrounding the followers of a true god. 

Everyone would notice all of these benefits, and they would gravitate toward this true god. And thus, over the course of several centuries, everyone would be aligned on the one true god. All the other false gods would have fallen by the 
wayside long ago, and there would be only one religion under the one true god. 

When we look at our world today, we see nothing like that. There are two billion Christians AND there are more than one billion Muslims, and their religions are mutually exclusive. There are thousands of other religions. When you analyse any of them, they all show a remarkable similarity - there is no evidence that any of these gods exist. That is how we know that they are all imaginary. 


Food for thought?  Certainly beats arguing about golf club dress codes and over zealous moderation.


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2012)

I Iook to a lyric written by Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy...

If God is in the Heavens, why does God let Children die?


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2012)

2  subjects garunteed to start a row or a least a heated debate  , Religion & Politics .. 

Does God Exist ? on a personal note for me , Yes i believe in God , & you would be correct to say i havent read into any other religions at all , 

I would never question or disrespect anyones beliefs tho , if you have a faith in something i dont believe in , who am i to say you are right or wrong ... 

I "try" to live my life on the ethos of "treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself" i dont think you can go far wrong on that ..

Imurg . it is a good question & a question  i have often asked & never recieved what i would precieve to be a good enough answer ..


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## Lawrence22 (Nov 22, 2012)

I don't believe in Santa, Pixies, Dragons, elves or the tooth Fairy as there is no scientific evidence to prove they exist. For the same reason I don't believe in any of the above gods.


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## Alex1975 (Nov 22, 2012)

I will be careful here as I am aware that organised religion is some peoples everything. My mother and father are proper god botherers, they run groups and do collections and all sorts. They think they are great people yet they live in a million pound house and spunk money like water that clearly could be used for the greater good of their comunity.  They will take any possible opportunity to talk about their god and ram it down your neck that you will be going to hell if you do not commit to their god yet they covert BMWs and Â£60k kitchen refurbishments... and they think I am missing the meaning of life??


There is no god, believe in yourself, believe in your wife, believe in your childeren... its all about love, its that simple. Through yourself in to these things and you will not need to believe in a faulse god.

Edit: This is all my opinion....


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## timchump (Nov 22, 2012)

Do you want to start a war? ; - )


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## palindromicbob (Nov 22, 2012)

If we live by the main messages of most of the major religions then the world would be quiet a happy place. Trouble is they all have so much additional dogma the basic message of peace and love to fellow men gets lost. Islam, Judaism, Christianity is actually all the same god  with twists on the systems dogma. So there is 3 religions with the same god and none of them can agree. If there is a god I think he is rolling his eyes and letting things free wheel. 
Personally I'd say my views fall toward atheism. I'd don't believe in god but do believe in a universal oneness if that makes sense.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 22, 2012)

Ahhh... An intelligent and well written post Snelly. :thup:
If i have one critisism though it is the omission of the one true god that is Brian Johnson.:lol:


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2012)

For me, you cant believe in both creation and evolution, so, no, God does not exist. Furthermore, I see religion as control of the masses - if you tell people that they will be denied an "afterlife" unless they do as you tell them, you have control of their actions during their life and therefore, for good or bad, power is vested in the people running the religion/country


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## Alex1975 (Nov 22, 2012)

chrisd said:



			For me, you cant believe in both creation and evolution, so, no, God does not exist. Furthermore, I see religion as control of the masses - if you tell people that they will be denied an "afterlife" unless they do as you tell them, you have control of their actions during their life and therefore, for good or bad, power is vested in the people running the religion/country
		
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Love this, its so true....

Edit: In my opinon


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2012)

Christianity and Islam worship the same God, the Bible and Koran both have the same story up to the Abraham.  Muslims actually believe there was a Prophet called Jesus.   Some of the other religions you mention also follow the same God.


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Christianity and Islam worship the same God, the Bible and Koran both have the same story up to the Abraham.  Muslims actually believe there was a Prophet called Jesus.   Some of the other religions you mention also follow the same God.
		
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Sort of.

If the other gods argument is not fully valid for you then there is a very good website here http://www.yourgodisimaginary.com/index.htm that has 49 other pretty well constructed arguments that point to all gods being imaginary.

It makes interesting reading, irrespective of your religious persuasion. 

And I am not trying to cause offence to anyone who has faith.


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## BROOKIE (Nov 22, 2012)

My father used to say  "god is your concience,therefore I_am God"..


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

The very idea is absurd.

I'd respect people's "right" to believe if they did it privately and didn't try to impose their fiction on others. However, organised religions are unable to do that so I consider them responsible for much of the ill in the world.


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## Captainron (Nov 22, 2012)

Nope. Nowt up there or any blooming where. 

People can get on with church etc as long as they don't try and preach their tosh to me. There are loads of these freaky well dressed teenagers patrollign at the moment trying to get people to join the Jehovahs. I enjoy wasting their time and getting their hopes up before I then try and convert them to a random religeon.  They soon leave


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 22, 2012)

I have the utmost respect for people of faith, whatever that faith might be, as long as they dont try to force their faith down my throat or try to kill me because I do not share their faith.

However I feel that religion was bought in to control the uneducated masses of pre history, The only people who had any education were the priests or nobility, therefore fire and brimstone were used to control the masses.

Once people started to read and to think and question, the priests lost that control .After all, The Bible's contents were decided by a committee

I do however believe in the collective power of human good.  Good things happen when people of a like mind come together .

I also like Churches, the buildings that is, I find them very peaceful.

The concept of a God is one I have trouble believing in

However I do believe in The Golfing Gods and sacrifice balls to them regularly

Fragger


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

I think science has proved, to me anyway, beyond reasonable doubt that there is no god.

Carbon dating. Theory of evolution. Big bang theory (Not the TV program  ). Atomic and sub-atomic science the list is endless of the kind of science that we now understand.

Life, science, pretty much everything we know is far complex to be engineered by a mystical being. Just my opinion but I stand by it.


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## Andy808 (Nov 22, 2012)

No.
Religion and god, whichever one you want to believe in, is just another method to control the masses. Unfortunately too many are far too passionate about their beliefs and now wars are faught over who is right or wrong.


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## cookelad (Nov 22, 2012)

Andy808 said:



			... and now wars are faught over who is right or wrong.
		
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Now???


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## john0 (Nov 22, 2012)

I was under the impression that God was a Moderator on this forum...........


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## Region3 (Nov 22, 2012)

I am a dyslexic agnostic insomniac.

I lay awake all night wondering if there really is a dog.


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## Bomber69 (Nov 22, 2012)

john0 said:



			I was under the impression that God was a Moderator on this forum...........
		
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Bomber likes this


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

I can only asnswer the question with another question..... does it matter?


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## Mattyboy (Nov 22, 2012)

1) Who knows if God exists but some people are happy in believing.

2) I cant see a need for more than one God, no matter how many religions there are.


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I can only asnswer the question with another question..... does it matter?
		
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It might do, if I was dying.


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.
		
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Well said!


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## deanobillquay (Nov 22, 2012)

Don't believe in God but....

Heaven is....

A good single malt......a good cuban cigar.....and a Miura wedge


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			It might do, if I was dying.
		
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Are you not planning to then?


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.
		
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Bravo!


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.
		
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Alcohol has caused many wives to be beaten, football has caused many riots... I'm not sure I see your point.

It's gone from "does God exist" to practically a full-on assault of religion already (or certainly trying to portray religion in a bad light)


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2012)

Impressive list of numbers in the OP.

I wonder how many would be prepared to die for THEIR god, scary thought.


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## Rooter (Nov 22, 2012)

Phil the fragger has nailed it for me. believe whatever makes you happy and content I am very happy for you. please dont try and ram your views down my throat though. I am happy being an atheist.

However, interestingly we discussed this at home, and as my daughter goes to a CofE school, they teach religion. i didnt want her to go to a churchy school, however we didnt get much choice. IN MY OPINION, the fairytale that is heaven, jebus etc is quite nice for kids, a bit like father christmas and the tooth fairy. so for their benefit, they can believe what they want, however we didnt get our kids christened while all our friends were (for the party me thinks more than the "proper" reasons)


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Alcohol has caused many wives to be beaten, football has caused many riots... I'm not sure I see your point.
QUOTE]

I haven't got a point apart from you asked a question and I gave an answer.  

Does it matter? Yes.  I thought the example helped to explain further. 

And the subject at hand is not football or substance abuse.  Nor are they comparable to global religions that affect billions of people.
		
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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

Well I don't beleive that bad things should be done in the name of religion... but they always have. Whether it's human sacrifice on an altar or someone getting stoned for having an affair. I can't dictate how religions should behave.... but I can choose not to be a part of it. God or no God.


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## zlinuk (Nov 22, 2012)

Each to their own, but for me it's a no.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Well I don't beleive that bad things should be done in the name of religion... but they always have. Whether it's human sacrifice on an altar or someone getting stoned for having an affair. I can't dictate how religions should behave.... but I can choose not to be a part of it. God or no God.
		
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Unless you're the one being stoned because the religion has deemed you a "sinner". Some of us have our lives adversely affected by religion despite wanting no part of it.


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

FairwayDodger said:



			Unless you're the one being stoned because the religion has deemed you a "sinner". Some of us have our lives adversely affected by religion despite wanting no part of it.
		
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I agree, but something had to create some kind of a 'moral code' to at least get us to form societies in the first place... an area of sanctuary if you will... and that spot was filled by religion. Had someone come along and written a 'bible' about human behaviour that DIDN'T include a God then things would have been different... I think to a greater extent mankind is realising that now.

When people have nothing, and no reason to live... what do they have?


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			When people have nothing, and no reason to live... what do they have?
		
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Belly putters!


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			When people have nothing, and no reason to live... what do they have?
		
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Golf lessons?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

Does God Exist?  If God is your Higher Power than we can all have a higher power and many if not most of us do in one shape of form.  For many GOD stands for Good Orderly Direction - and you can get that from anywhere.


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## JPH (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes, I definitely exist


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## sydney greenstreet (Nov 22, 2012)

Just out of interest, When you pop your clogs will you have a service ? or will it be a Co-op send away and no Minister/Priest/Rabbi/ etc to send you off ?


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2012)

I am a yes. I was brought up Catholic, should that read brainwashed, and had the very dubious pleasure of a Catholic school and, for those who know, the harsh discipline of the Christian Brothers - and there was little christian in their methods of discipline. At the first chance I dropped the Catholic bit and very much keep my faith and religeon to myself. For example, my mother, a God faring Irish Catholic was convinced I was a non-believer and would burn in hell. She was stunned to find out, just before she died, that I had never lost my faith but just my belief in the controlling that the church does. 

I don't think any less of a non-believer, nor do I think I'm any better. Its just who and what I am. I have a code of conduct that just happens to have some 'thing' at its pinnacle. That code of conduct is what the vast majority of the world believes, albeit with or without a God at the top.

I don't "ram it..." and in truth rarely talk about it. There's no need. It is for me what it is. If someone else wants to take it on-board there's more than enough 'experts' in the world to point them in the direction of a church and a book without me adding my muddled thoughts.


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## john0 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			When people have nothing, and no reason to live... what do they have?
		
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They then resort to Stack & Tilt


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

sydney greenstreet said:



			Just out of interest, When you pop your clogs will you have a service ? or will it be a Co-op send away and no Minister/Priest/Rabbi/ etc to send you off ?
		
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No religion whatsoever!


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## Bomber69 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Well I don't beleive that bad things should be done in the name of religion... but they always have. Whether it's human sacrifice on an altar or someone getting stoned for having an affair. I can't dictate how religions should behave.... but I can choose not to be a part of it. God or no God.
		
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This feels like it has been written by someone with past experience, have you been stoned or are you just feeling guilty


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## cookelad (Nov 22, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			have you been stoned or are you just feeling guilty

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Surely thats a different thread!


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## rosecott (Nov 22, 2012)

sydney greenstreet said:



			Just out of interest, When you pop your clogs will you have a service ? or will it be a Co-op send away and no Minister/Priest/Rabbi/ etc to send you off ?
		
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Mine will be a Humanist service and I already have a plot in the meadow/woodland burial site which is conveniently next door to - and can be seen from - the golf club.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

There had better be a God and another place because I plan to take it all with me and if I cannae take it all wi me I'm no going


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

FairwayDodger said:



			No religion whatsoever!
		
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OP didn't ask about religion - OP asked if God exists.  The latter is not dependent upon any belief in any religion.


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## haplesshacker (Nov 22, 2012)

The one thread I'd never thought I'd see on here.

Part of my family are deep believers, and in general terms, I really don't have an issue with it. Why would I. They don't ram it down my throat. However. On attending their church one day, the service centred around a Royal Marine (we're in Poole, so probably SBS), who had died in Afganistan. I'm more patriotic than most, but this service wasn't a funeral or a wake, it was a 'news' item. The preacher kept going on about how this young solider died serving his God. And this went on and on. My thought was what's the difference between him fighting for his God, and the 'enemy' fighting for his God? Especially when its essentially the same God. The service was 'spun' so much, it could of been written by Alistair Campbell. God propaganda doesn't even come close. And tbh I was sickened by it. It was intolerant of other beliefs. And I thought tolerance and understanding of others was a cornerstone of religion. Apparently not. 

In answer to the op though. 

I don't think so. But you cannot separate the argument of whether there's a God and religion I'm afraid. 

Imagine dieing and getting to heaven (if it exists!) only to find the gatekeeper is of a different religious order to the one that you've followed whilst alive. You're kinda screwed!!!!


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OP didn't ask about religion - OP asked if God exists.  The latter is not dependent upon any belief in any religion.
		
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I was answering a question about whether I would have a service when I died. Do try to keep up.


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## Fader (Nov 22, 2012)

Science can prove the possible no existence of a god, but it can't dent a manâ€™s faith..

I grew up in a very odd household, mother a devout catholic due to Italian heritage, father only going to church with mum for the big occasions to please her but a pretty much non believer.

So I have my faith but as a result of my dadâ€™s grounding, I never discuss it with anyone that doesn't ask, I wouldn't tell anyone they have to believe or be damned for not believing. Nor would I say there is 100% a holy being we should bow down to or preach about to non-believing masses. I don't go to church, couldn't quote any biblical scripture or want to. But deep inside I have my faith and beliefs they are my own and wouldn't enforce on anyone.

Plus there really is only one god isn't there and his name is Ben Hogan.


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

Mankind is so very mentally weak. We can't accept that we're here for no reason other than to procreate, we want to live for ever and will create Gods in our image to serve our own purpose.... and fight in their name. We can't accept reality and therefore live a life surrounded by intoxicating drugs (nicotine/alcohol and others) and will defend that way of life as if it were 'freedom'.




..... pass the spliff!


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## Bomber69 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Mankind is so very mentally weak. We can't accept that we're here for no reason other than to procreate, we want to live for ever and will create Gods in our image to serve our own purpose.... and fight in their name. We can't accept reality and therefore live a life surrounded by intoxicating drugs (nicotine/alcohol and others) and will defend that way of life as if it were 'freedom'.




..... pass the spliff!
		
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I can't help but think your on the ALCOHOL after reading this utter tosh.......................


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			I can't help but think your on the ALCOHOL after reading this utter tosh.......................
		
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Really?

I think he has a point myself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

Fader said:



			Science can prove the possible no existence of a god, but it can't dent a manâ€™s faith..

Plus there really is only one god isn't there and his name is Ben Hogan.
		
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Hogan - I'm a believer - obviously...(now glad that I never asked Jim to fix it for me to meet him as I had always planned and wished I'd done)

Though tell me how science is ever going to be able to prove that something doesn't exist.  You may not be able to prove something *exists*, but that does not prove that the something *does not exist.*


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2012)

I am in the Richard Dawkins camp on this question, but I have no problem with people believing whatever they like, and there are some bizarre beliefs in the world, until the point when they try to enforce those views on others.

Faith is the acceptance of an assertion in the absence of any evidence, so to seek evidence is to not have faith. Nice trick, eh?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

Fader said:



			Plus there really is only one god isn't there and his name is Ben Hogan.
		
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And so for you there is a God - a Higher Power does exist for you.  And that High Power - that God as you understand it - has nothing to do with religion, but you can look to your 'God' for Good Orderly Discipline - indeed that is precisely my relationship with Hogan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

Ethan said:



			I am in the Richard Dawkins camp on this question, but I have no problem with people believing whatever they like, and there are some bizarre beliefs in the world, until the point when they try to enforce those views on others.

Faith is the acceptance of an assertion in the absence of any evidence, so to seek evidence is to not have faith. Nice trick, eh?
		
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Yes - neat - but not a trick I'd suggest.  However in religous faith 'seek and ye shall find' the evidence of God's works.  We know of the existence of Black Holes through evidence we can see and detect of the impact Black Holes have on the universe around them.  We know they are there by seeing what they do not what they are.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Really?

I think he has a joint myself.
		
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Fixed that for you Gareth ,,

only kidding James


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Are you not planning to then?
		
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Not any time soon, and I guess the answer becomes more pressing the nearer you get!


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - neat - but not a trick I'd suggest.  However in religous faith 'seek and ye shall find' the evidence of God's works.  We know of the existence of Black Holes through evidence we can see and detect of the impact Black Holes have on the universe around them.  We know they are there by seeing what they do not what they are.
		
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You mean the evidence of God's work being the faithful acceptance that all was created by Him. Bit of a con-trick, if you ask me.

Evidence, in scientific terms, would mean being able to show that someone made the universe, not just the notion that it is all so terribly complicated that it couldn't have arisen by chance.


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## Fader (Nov 22, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so for you there is a God - a Higher Power does exist for you. And that High Power - that God as you understand it - has nothing to do with religion, but you can look to your 'God' for Good Orderly Discipline - indeed that is precisely my relationship with Hogan.
		
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For me I do have my faith that is in a religion as I was brought up with it and some parts I do deeply believe, whereas there are other parts I firmly am against e.g the hypocracy of being able to sin as long as you repent and say a million hail mary's. I won't go into what my beliefs are as they are mine and my own and do not need airing or forcing on others. 

But as far as the golfing gods go (a whole other religion and path we all follow in our own mad way) has to be Hogan and Faldo for me from what i've read and footage i've seen of them both.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2012)

You are a child of the universe, no less than                 the trees and the stars;
                you have a right to be here.
                And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt                 the universe is unfolding as it should.

                 Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you                 conceive Him to be,
                and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the                 noisy confusion of life keep peace with your                 soul.
                With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it                 is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to                 be happy. 
                 Â© Max Ehrmann 1927


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## deanobillquay (Nov 22, 2012)

If he does, can someone ask him to stop sending Jehovah's witnesses to my door!


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## Yerman (Nov 22, 2012)

Was Catholic until I unchained my brain and realised what a lot of superstitious tosh it was.
 God- if it helps you cope with fear of death then you're welcome.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2012)

deanobillquay said:



			If he does, can someone ask him to stop sending Jehovah's witnesses to my door!
		
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They came to my house and asked if I wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.   I told them I didn't even see the accident!


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## deanobillquay (Nov 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			They came to my house and asked if I wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.   I told them I didn't even see the accident!
		
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I normally come back in and tell HID there's someone at the door for them


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## Kellfire (Nov 22, 2012)

None of us can say there is no god as we couldn't possibly tell but we can say with 100% certainty that the deity outlined as Yahweh/Jehovah/Mohammed is not real; their own religious texts do all the proving for us.


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## chris661 (Nov 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			They came to my house and asked if I wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.   I told them I didn't even see the accident!
		
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Ba dum tish.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			They came to my house and asked if I wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.   I told them I didn't even see the accident!
		
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There was a knock on the door this morning. 
 I opened it to find a young man standing there who said: 
 "Hello sir, I'm a Jehovah's Witness".
 I said "Come in and sit down".
 I offered him coffee and asked, "What do you want to talk about?"
 He said, "I don't know, I've never got this far before".


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 22, 2012)

I think what I could contribute has already been said, I made up my mind a long time ago. If I turn out to be wrong I won't blame myself, I made my decision out of free will and I will stick by it


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## Yerman (Nov 22, 2012)

Lawrence22 said:



			I don't believe in Santa, Pixies, Dragons, elves or the tooth Fairy as there is no scientific evidence to prove they exist. For the same reason I don't believe in any of the above gods.
		
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Believe what you like but Pixie Lott is real:mmm:


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## AmandaJR (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm not religious but would answer to the question "I don't know but hope so" which would be the same answer to the question "does Santa exist"... I like the idea of goodness, kindness and some higher being that is able to somehow impart that to mankind!!

I've not put that very well - I'm a dreamer!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2012)

I went to a humanist funeral last year for a friend who was a golf pro.
It was quite a nice affair. they played tunes that meant a lot to him and his wife and most folk sang along.
The place was packed and some of his close friends told tales about his life, mainly humorous and sometimes touching.
His send off tune was Frank Sinatra singing 'Straight down the Middle and we all had a wee smile.

I think I shall do the same, after all we start life as a seed, we grow quickly, we bloom, we set our own seeds, we wither and then we die. [Whilst all the time hoping that some bod does not come along with the weedkiller]
Dust to Dust.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 22, 2012)

We had a humanist service for my Dad's funeral and it was lovely. I spoke, as did my nephews and we chose the songs which were Everything I Own (Bread) and Wind Beneath My Wings (he loved Shirley). Still can't listen to either though


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 22, 2012)

No he doesn't, just because two sides disagree it doesn't mean the truth is in the middle.


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 22, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.
		
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You read that from sickipedia


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## williamalex1 (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Are you not planning to then?
		
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 its the only thing in life that every one has to do


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2012)

Too many people have lost their lives through religion and personally it isn't a subject that I'm happy discussing. Everybody has their own beliefs and views and this should be respected even if they aren't agreed with


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## Iaing (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm a non believer. The more thought that I've given it over the years, the less sense the concept of a supreme being makes.
I have absolutely no problem with people who believe in a god as long as they don't try to impose their views on me.

The last three funerals that I've attended have been Humanist and very nice they were ( if a funeral can ever be called nice )

I've also attended one which had absolutely nothing. No music and no words at all apart from when the coffin was brought into the crematorium and the funeral director asked everyone to stand until the curtains closed. It was a bit surreal.


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## sev112 (Nov 22, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Yes it does.

In the last month, science has enabled a man to jump back to earth from the edge of space and religion has caused a girl to be shot in the head because she wanted to go to school.

It matters a great deal.
		
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Conversely there are a large number of "scientific experiments" which have been seriously ill founded with hindsight causing much harm.

And just as many numerous examples of the good of religion .


PS.  he didnt jump from space - it was all filmed from a studio behind some railway arches in south london - you can tell because the sun was in the wrong position and you could see footprints on the roof of the capsule


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## lobthewedge (Nov 22, 2012)

Good thread Snelly, about time someone brought some good, intelligent, topical debate back to the forum.

I dont believe in the big, mainstream religions, they do a lot more harm than good in my opinion.  That being said, I am not against the idea of higher powers or an afterlife, maybe even reincarnation, Im just not ready to pin my colours to any one mast yet.

As someone who studied a bit of classics and is interested in ancient history, I would love to think that those old Olympian gods are out there somewhere, and that individual rivers, forest, mountains, deserts, winds etc all have their own gods like in the Homeric poems.  As a golfer and firm believer in the golfing gods, this sits well with me.


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## viscount17 (Nov 22, 2012)

for the definitive statement on gods and religion I recommend Terry Pratchett's Small Gods

Personally I was agnostic until I was 15 when I became antagonistic, a view I have held ever since. 
one fundamental of my non belief is that the word hypocrite didn't exist until after religion was invented
it is also true that no religion is wrong, it's the people running them - if you believe in a God have the balls to speak directly - you don't need an interpreter.


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## G1BB0 (Nov 22, 2012)

I dont believe in a god per se but I live in hope that there is a supreme being and heaven exists. Without that hope it would be pretty pants knowing for definite that we are purely worm fodder, nothing more, nothing less!


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## Idlenorth1 (Nov 22, 2012)

What about Jedi? Wasn't this'd recognised a few years ago after the census report


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## quinn (Nov 22, 2012)

Its a no for me.I can prove god doesnt exist alot easier than someone who says there is one.


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## SwingSlow (Nov 23, 2012)

My personal belief is that yes He does and we can have a personal relationship with Him. In line with many of the sentiments expressed on here by others, I do not wish to impose my beliefs on others where the discussion is not sought, so shall not comment further.


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## palindromicbob (Nov 23, 2012)

Here is one for you re: evolution and the existence of a God. 
DNA similarities might just be because he used the same parts. Hand a child a box of lego and see how many different things can be created from the same building blocks. And surely an intelligent all knowing designer would allow for a species to adapt to the environment to ensure survival rather than stay the same and eventually die out. 

Evolution does not prove no God as it does not explain the initial creation of life. All it does is show that God had the foresight to ensure his initial creations could spread out and survive. 

Noah could have taken pairs of every animal on the ark if you allow for a few assumptions. It doesn't say they were all adults. Egg lying species could have been taken in pairs as eggs and cared for as eggs. Larger mammals taken on as babies. Water creatures weren't a problem.


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			Without that hope it would be pretty pants knowing for definite that we are purely worm fodder, nothing more, nothing less!
		
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What do you think would happen to people's state of mind (worldwide) and behaviour if it was categorically proved that you were 100% destined to be worm food?

I'm not saying for an instant that religion is a state of control for the masses but if 5 billion+ people were suddenly to have it proved beyond all doubt that there was no God then surely there'd be a huge shift in (for example) crime, murder, adultery......

No more religous wars.... they'd have to be real ones. No more church... no more Muslim, Christian, Jew etc... it'd be too HUGE to comprehend. Best to break the news slowly.......


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			Here is one for you re: evolution and the existence of a God. 
DNA similarities might just be because he used the same parts. Hand a child a box of lego and see how many different things can be created from the same building blocks. And surely an intelligent all knowing designer would allow for a species to adapt to the environment to ensure survival rather than stay the same and eventually die out. 

Evolution does not prove no God as it does not explain the initial creation of life. All it does is show that God had the foresight to ensure his initial creations could spread out and survive. 

Noah could have taken pairs of every animal on the ark if you allow for a few assumptions. It doesn't say they were all adults. Egg lying species could have been taken in pairs as eggs and cared for as eggs. Larger mammals taken on as babies. Water creatures weren't a problem.   



Click to expand...

Noah's ark?  Do you know how big it would need to be to have two of every animal? And estimates put the number of species on earth at 10 million plus by the way. Not to mention the fact we are discovering about 15,000 new species per year.  Who collected all the babies from every corner of the globe? What did the carnivores eat? Were there any woodworm on board? Who cleaned out the living quarters for them all? Just Noah and his Mrs? That's five million each. A lot of poo to shovel there.....


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## USER1999 (Nov 23, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Noah's ark?  Do you know how big it would need to be to have two of every animal? And estimates put the number of species on earth at 10 million plus by the way. Not to mention the fact we are discovering about 15,000 new species per year.  Who collected all the babies from every corner of the globe? What did the carnivores eat? Were there any woodworm on board? Who cleaned out the living quarters for them all? Just Noah and his Mrs? That's five million each. A lot of poo to shovel there.....
		
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A Julian Barnes reader?


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2012)

SwingSlow said:



			My personal belief is that yes He does and we can have a personal relationship with Him. In line with many of the sentiments expressed on here by others, I do not wish to impose my beliefs on others where the discussion is not sought, so shall not comment further.
		
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Stating your view and putting the arguments for or against is absolutely fine in a thread of this nature. That is not imposing your belief at all. Anyone opening this thread will expect such arguments.


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			A Julian Barnes reader?
		
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No, I am not familiar with his work Murph.  I will check it out though.


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## coolhand (Nov 23, 2012)

Does a higher being exisit? - Yes - god's as good a label as any.

Are organised religions full of it? - Yes - thier folk stories to explain natural events twisted to control the masses.

Was live designed? Yes - there are just too many perfect adaptations to have occured via mutation and natural selection alone.

"and thereth finishes the lesson"


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Noah's ark?  Do you know how big it would need to be to have two of every animal? And estimates put the number of species on earth at 10 million plus by the way. Not to mention the fact we are discovering about 15,000 new species per year.  Who collected all the babies from every corner of the globe? What did the carnivores eat? Were there any woodworm on board? Who cleaned out the living quarters for them all? Just Noah and his Mrs? That's five million each. A lot of poo to shovel there.....
		
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:thup:
This sort of stuff allays amuses me Snelly.
If you take the Old Testament as literal proof of human history, which some people are want to do, then Noah was around during the late neolithic, early bronze age periods of human history. The technology available to us at this time would of meant building anything much larger than your average canal barge impossible. It certainly would have been a tight squeeze.


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			:thup:
This sort of stuff allays amuses me Snelly.
If you take the Old Testament as literal proof of human history, which some people are want to do, then Noah was around during the late neolithic, early bronze age periods of human history. The technology available to us at this time would of meant building anything much larger than your average canal barge impossible. It certainly would have been a tight squeeze.
		
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The Old Testament?  You mean that book that states we should kill adulterers and homosexuals?  And have slaves?  Ah yes, I know the one.  Written by people that thought the earth was flat?  Yep.  Familiar with it.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

coolhand said:



			Was live designed? Yes - there are just too many perfect adaptations to have occured via mutation and natural selection alone.
		
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Sorry Coolhand don't agree.
Life as been around for 3.5 billion yrs, more than enougth time to have evolved to its present state.I think people have trouble getting thier head round just how long 3.5 billion yrs is.
You mention "perfect " adaptations, i argue there is no such thing. If your arguement is correct then evolution has stopped, and life on this rock is doomed. No evolution, no adaptation to changing conditions, no life.
Perfection is very, very rare, even comodaties that have been designed continue to evolve as technoligy advances.
Just my beliefs Cooklad, they just happen to be different to yours. Healthy debate, so refreshing. :cheers:


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

coolhand said:



			Was live designed? Yes - there are just too many perfect adaptations to have occured via mutation and natural selection alone.
		
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I had this discussion recently.... and as arrogant as mankind is to believe he was perfectly designed we came up against one question...

In God's perfect design was a big rock meant to extinct the dinosaurs?... else we might have never been here at all! I'm sure there'll be people who'll say the big rock was 'planned'


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

Snelly said:



			The Old Testament?  You mean that book that states we should kill adulterers and homosexuals?  And have slaves?  Ah yes, I know the one.  Written by people that thought the earth was flat?  Yep.  Familiar with it.
		
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:lol:
Thats the one Snelly.
Glad i didn't say that though. Hardhats ready me thinks. :rofl:


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## coolhand (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I had this discussion recently.... and as arrogant as mankind is to believe he was perfectly designed we came up against one question...

In God's perfect design was a big rock meant to extinct the dinosaurs?... else we might have never been here at all! I'm sure there'll be people who'll say the big rock was 'planned' 

Click to expand...

"Intelligently designed" not "Perfectly designed"

Without wanting to get too deep into my personal beliefs â€“ I see â€œgodsâ€ involvement in earth as like someone playing Sims. Every once and a while they step in change some parameters â€“ then things just move on naturally. 

At the end you see what your score is.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2012)

To me as i said earlier , believe what you want to believe but treat others with the respect you would want in return , 

Dont confuse religions by the people that run them tho , the people who over the years have used different interpetations to sway things for their own means , can any "story" "fact" or happening be truly recounted over 5 years ? let alone thousands of years ..


Im a catholic but im not blind or mad enough to know that there are mad atrocities carried out in the name of my religion. 

Im not arrogant or bullish enough to say i obey every single rule of the catholic church , i dont . 

Im not so religious as to think my ways are right & yours are wrong , my best friend is a protestant . we would give anything for each other , not in the name of religion , in the act of friendship .     

Believe in what ever gives you hope & consolation when you need it but remember (& i know Garth Brooks put it in a song) but even before that,  sometimes unanswered prayers turn out to be the best result for you in the long run , what you want,   might not be whats best for you .. 

I have played golf , worked doors , traveled parts of the world & never asked the people i met do you or what God do you believe in ? its not important to me 

I have seen my kids born , be sick, get better & grow strong , and every time ive prayed to my God for his help & every night i thank him for the good life i have ..   
Just wanted to share that , Is there a God ? For me yes ,   believe what you wana believe but be a good person doing it 

Sorry for going on ,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2012)

quinn said:



			Its a no for me.I can prove god doesnt exist alot easier than someone who says there is one.
		
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Really? - you reckon you can prove something doesn't exist when you don't know what it is that you are trying to prove doesn't exist?  

Some might say that the proof of the existence of 'God' is the same sort of proof that scientists use to 'prove' the existence of black holes viz - the observable effects that 'something' is having on a specific area of the universe.  The evidence of the existence of the 'something' therefore not the 'something' itself (as in 'there it is!'), but the effects of that 'something' (as in 'look around at what it does and has done in the past').  And that 'something' scientist have called a Black Hole.

And for those who believe in God - they do not say 'look - there is God', rather they say 'look around at what God does and has done in the past'


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

Crikey... we are humans... who do we think we are that we are remotely capable of proving God exists even if there IS one? Are we really that full of ourselves? Believe in God? sure if you want, introduce him to your friends and have him as your Winter League playing partner?... probably not.

oops!..... carry on as you were.


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## cookelad (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Just my beliefs Cooklad, they just happen to be different to yours. Healthy debate, so refreshing. :cheers:
		
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Hang about??? I thought I'd kept clear of this one!


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			To me as i said earlier , believe what you want to believe but treat others with the respect you would want in return , 

Dont confuse religions by the people that run them tho , the people who over the years have used different interpetations to sway things for their own means , can any "story" "fact" or happening be truly recounted over 5 years ? let alone thousands of years ..


Im a catholic but im not blind or mad enough to know that there are mad atrocities carried out in the name of my religion. 

Im not arrogant or bullish enough to say i obey every single rule of the catholic church , i dont . 

Im not so religious as to think my ways are right & yours are wrong , my best friend is a protestant . we would give anything for each other , not in the name of religion , in the act of friendship .     

Believe in what ever gives you hope & consolation when you need it but remember (& i know Garth Brooks put it in a song) but even before that,  sometimes unanswered prayers turn out to be the best result for you in the long run , what you want,   might not be whats best for you .. 

I have played golf , worked doors , traveled parts of the world & never asked the people i met do you or what God do you believe in ? its not important to me 

I have seen my kids born , be sick, get better & grow strong , and every time ive prayed to my God for his help & every night i thank him for the good life i have ..   
Just wanted to share that , Is there a God ? For me yes ,   believe what you wana believe but be a good person doing it 

Sorry for going on ,
		
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Great post mate :thup:

Agree 100% so much so I could almost have written this myself.


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## cookelad (Nov 23, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			To me as i said earlier , believe what you want to believe but treat others with the respect you would want in return , 

Is there a God ? For me yes ,   believe what you wana believe but be a good person doing it
		
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For me you've summed it up in those 2 sentences!


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

(part of the thread progress.... and YES there is a reason for my question)

Can someone answer this question... why do we cry at funerals?


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(part of the thread progress.... and YES there is a reason for my question)

Can someone answer this question... why do we cry at funerals?
		
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This cannot be a serious question surely


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 23, 2012)

because we are sad that a loved one has passed on and we will never share their company again,

Also it reminds us of our own mortality, thats its going to be our turn one day

And I cant go yet coz I havnt played enough golf yet

Fragger


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

cookelad said:



			Hang about??? I thought I'd kept clear of this one!
		
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Whoops! Sorry mate 
Just goes to show the importance of reading your posts through twice before posting. I of course meant Coolhand.
"God" what a wally i feel, thats WALLY everyone..:lol:


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## chris661 (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			What do you think would happen to people's state of mind (worldwide) and behaviour if it was categorically proved that you were 100% destined to be worm food?

I'm not saying for an instant that religion is a state of control for the masses but if 5 billion+ people were suddenly to have it proved beyond all doubt that there was no God then surely there'd be a huge shift in (for example) crime, murder, adultery......

No more religous wars.... they'd have to be real ones. No more church... no more Muslim, Christian, Jew etc... it'd be too HUGE to comprehend. Best to break the news slowly....... 

Click to expand...

What about going the other way and it was proven beyond doubt that God(s) DID exist? Would that make all the non believers suddenly change? 

Interesting debate this.


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## cookelad (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Whoops! Sorry mate 
Just goes to show the importance of reading your posts through twice before posting. I of course meant Coolhand.
"God" what a wally i feel, thats WALLY everyone..:lol:
		
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No worries mate! Had me wondering for a moment!


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			This cannot be a serious question surely
		
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Why not?


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

chris661 said:



			What about going the other way and it was proven beyond doubt that God(s) DID exist? Would that make all the non believers suddenly change?
		
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Absolutely. The world would also change dramatically.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Absolutely. The world would also change dramatically.
		
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It would also change if little green men landed in a spaceship

especially if their handicap was low

Fragger


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

It would Phil.




Edit:
Seeing as you answered my question about crying at funerals, are you comfortable discussing that answer with me, man-o man-o?


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Why not? 

Click to expand...

Ok I'll try and explain why and describe my experience. Apologies for the tone it may contain.

I don't think I had ever cried at a funeral my whole life and on the 2nd of September this year my Mum died very suddenly, a sad and devastating day and a day I dreaded happening my whole life. My mum was not i'll so all very shocking.

Fast forward 5 days to the day of the funeral, I stayed as strong as I could for my own family, my brother and my mums 3 sisters and did not cry a tear the whole week even during the funeral however afterwards was a different kettle of fish, yes I cried and cried a lot.

Why?

I'll tell you why, I lost my mum and the stark realisation that the women who made me the person I grew to be was no longer here, I can no longer wish her happy birthday, happy christmas or happy mothers day in person. Sure I can go to the cemetary and visit and say a few words to give me a bit of comfort but it's not the same. I miss her every single day.

It's my thought that people cry at funerals because people realise that those being put to rest will no longer be there to lend an ear for a chat or sound off.


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

Of course I'm sorry for your loss Valentino, even though I don't know you it's hard for anyone to lose someone that is close to them - that almost goes without saying - and it's good of you to post your experience of it. I understand your sentiment.



I have no idea if you want to hear what I have to say.. I don't want to offend anyone clearly, but it's a discussion subject at this level... nothing more and certainly nothing personal.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Ok I'll try and explain why and describe my experience. Apologies for the tone it may contain.

I don't think I had ever cried at a funeral my whole life and on the 2nd of September this year my Mum died very suddenly, a sad and devastating day and a day I dreaded happening my whole life. My mum was not i'll so all very shocking.

Fast forward 5 days to the day of the funeral, I stayed as strong as I could for my own family, my brother and my mums 3 sisters and did not cry a tear the whole week even during the funeral however afterwards was a different kettle of fish, yes I cried and cried a lot.

Why?

I'll tell you why, I lost my mum and the stark realisation that the women who made me the person I grew to be was no longer here, I can no longer wish her happy birthday, happy christmas or happy mothers day in person. Sure I can go to the cemetary and visit and say a few words to give me a bit of comfort but it's not the same. I miss her every single day.

It's my thought that people cry at funerals because people realise that those being put to rest will no longer be there to lend an ear for a chat or sound off.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:


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## coolhand (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(part of the thread progress.... and YES there is a reason for my question)

Can someone answer this question... why do we cry at funerals?
		
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I think I know where your going with this so my answer is:

 For selfish reasons - as Phil says. If people where being altruistic they'd be happy for the dead person.

 (Assuming a heaven based assumption for the afterlife and therefore confusing religion with the question of divinity)

This is an interesting debate.

(Sorry for your loss Valentino, no offense meant, simple caught out by my slow typing - mine was a therotical answer, it's easy to forget we don't live in a therotical world)


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Of course I'm sorry for your loss Valentino, even though I don't know you it's hard for anyone to lose someone that is close to them - that almost goes without saying - and it's good of you to post your experience of it. I understand your sentiment.



I have no idea if you want to hear what I have to say.. I don't want to offend anyone clearly, but it's a discussion subject at this level... nothing more and certainly nothing personal.
		
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Fire away James


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

coolhand said:



			For selfish reasons - as Phil says. If people where being altruistic they'd be happy for the dead person
		
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Without sounding patronising... I'm glad you said it.... I was preparing myself for the backlash!

So it begs the question (indeed answers the question to a degree...)... why believe in God?


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Without sounding patronising... I'm glad you said it.... I was preparing myself for the backlash!

So it begs the question (indeed answers the question to a degree...)... why believe in God?
		
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Of course it is because we are sellfish, if we weren't sellfish we wouldn't be sad.


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## palindromicbob (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			:thup:
This sort of stuff allays amuses me Snelly.
If you take the Old Testament as literal proof of human history, which some people are want to do, then Noah was around during the late neolithic, early bronze age periods of human history. The technology available to us at this time would of meant building anything much larger than your average canal barge impossible. It certainly would have been a tight squeeze.
		
Click to expand...

They can't really say that for definite though.improbably yes but impossible? Especially with an all powerful god on your side . They can make an educated guess but not state it as an outright fact. They still struggle to explain the construction of the pyramids based on the technology of the time. Anyway I just thought I'd throw that creationist theroy in there. Might not be the strongest theroy but a valid one none the less depending on the lens you view the world through.  I notice the first part of my post was overlooked though.


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Of course it is because we are sellfish, if we weren't sellfish we wouldn't be sad.
		
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Yes, we are mourning OUR loss, we feel sad for ourselves... we will miss them, they won't be there, and technically they've just gone through something that we don't want to.. and we are scared! It's all about us. yes we respect, indeed love that person but our reaction is purely a defensive one designed to protect us as best as possible. It's no different to reading bad headlines in a newspaper.. we are drawn to them by our defense mechanism, it's part of a learning process that our brain is trying to protect us, and IN MY OPINION it's the same for religion (back on topic!) it's part of our subconcious brain trying to protect us... no different than getting in a boat if you thought there was a flood coming.... well death IS coming.... grab your boat.

....if you see what I mean.


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			They still struggle to explain the construction of the pyramids based on the technology of the time.
		
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Are you sure about that?


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yes, we are mourning OUR loss, we feel sad for ourselves... we will miss them, they won't be there, and technically they've just gone through something that we don't want to.. and we are scared! It's all about us. yes we respect, indeed love that person but our reaction is purely a defensive one designed to protect us as best as possible. it's no different to reading bad headlines in a newspaper.. we are drawn to them by our defense mechanism, it's part of a learning process that our brain is trying to protect us, and IN MY OPINION it's the same for religion (back on topic!) it's part of our subconcious brain trying to protect us... no different than getting in a boat if you thought there was a flood coming.... well death IS coming.... grab your boat.

....if you see what I mean.
		
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A very good analogy James (did I really say that  )

Believing in god and following religion particulalry in the thought that there is something better aftewards is a defense mechanism, I'm not scared of dying at all, im scared of suffering before it don't get me wrong and I worry about what I leave behind but as for death itself it comes to us all. 

Having a bit of faith is comforting, im a believer much in the mould of what bladeplayer posted. When the chips are down I say a prayer or 2 and it gives me some sort of hope, weather it changes anything is another matter.


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## coolhand (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yes, we are mourning OUR loss, we feel sad for ourselves... we will miss them, they won't be there, and technically they've just gone through something that we don't want to.. and we are scared! It's all about us. yes we respect, indeed love that person but our reaction is purely a defensive one designed to protect us as best as possible. It's no different to reading bad headlines in a newspaper.. we are drawn to them by our defense mechanism, it's part of a learning process that our brain is trying to protect us, and IN MY OPINION it's the same for religion (back on topic!) it's part of our subconcious brain trying to protect us... no different than getting in a boat if you thought there was a flood coming.... well death IS coming.... grab your boat.

....if you see what I mean.
		
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And the promise of a ticket to that boat holds an awful lot of power. 

A power that has been historically abused.


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			A very good analogy James (did I really say that  )
		
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Careful!!! You'll be accused of stroking my ego and then you won't be 'one of them' any more!! 

Agree with your sentiment... I don't want to suffer, it'll hurt, and whilst I can 'man up' and be brave about it.. I'm scared, my subconcious certainly is.. my brain chooses to live not die.. and as a result it's not something that I'm really looking forward to.

I don't want to die and leave those people that I love behind, but again that's selfish, it's all about me. Would I like to think that i'd go to a better place? of course! with my very own Augusta and free ProV1's... but I know that's not going to happen. It's worm food for me... defense mechanism or not.

I accept that (in theory) I could be wrong.. there might be some guy standing at a gate.... or a lift that takes me down to the 'hot place'...  

Bring it on...... eventually ..





coolhand said:



			And the promise of a ticket to that boat holds an awful lot of power. 

A power that has been historically abused.
		
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Absolutely.


As I said, understanding why we cry at funerals answers the question of religion FOR ME.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			They can't really say that for definite though.improbably yes but impossible? Especially with an all powerful god on your side . They can make an educated guess but not state it as an outright fact. They still struggle to explain the construction of the pyramids based on the technology of the time. Anyway I just thought I'd throw that creationist theroy in there. Might not be the strongest theroy but a valid one none the less depending on the lens you view the world through.  I notice the first part of my post was overlooked though.
		
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Oh goody hear we go.
DNA similarities excist because we have all evolved from the same slime(no not him)that evolved from complex amino acids 3.5 billion yrs ago. A process that has been reproduced in laboratories. Not yet "proved" bacause this is science, just the latest theory backed by evidence.
As for neolithic/bronze age technological abilities there is quite a lot of archeological evidence in existance. We are talking of a culture here who had only just become agrarian and yet some people believe they had the technology to build the largest ocean going vessel ever built by man out of WOOD. I'am no engineer but i would say the tollerencies involved would render this undertaking impossible.
Know for the pyramids. We now exactly how they were built. The Egyptians left written records, records recently unearthed. Interestingly the theories put forward prior to these discoveries were remarkably close to reality, but then they were theories based on the archeological evidence previously in existance.
Science is based on evidence, evidence from results garnered from experiments that can be repeated. Faith is just that, faith, it is not a theory. IMO of course :ears:


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(

Can someone answer this question... why do we cry at funerals?
		
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Why do we cry at all ?? 

the same reason people might cry when someone emigrates , or a simple as a parents tears when a child moves away to collage, of course ill see you at the weekend but ill miss you never the less ... 

your present life as you know it has changed for ever & you cry because you are sad .. sad that you wont have that persons company or hear their laughter or share their sorrow on a daily basis as you have known ,   

Yes it is selfish , but you show me some who hasent cried & il show you someone who has never known a love so great you would walk on fire to protect that person ...


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2012)

We cry at funerals because we will never see that person again, irrespective of whether we believe they are worm food or on a cloud playing a harp.  

Additionally, we cry on occasion because we empathise with those who have lost someone very close. 

It may be that you could argue that those with faith have less reason to cry as they are safe in the knowledge that their loved ones are in a better place at God's side.  However, that is not an argument that I support at all.  Crying is just part of the grieving process.  Simple as that really.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 23, 2012)

Ok , james, whats on your mind

Fragger


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok , james, whats on your mind

Fragger
		
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Probably and its only a guess , sorry if im wrong James, if you believe in God that person is gone to a far better place with no pain or suffering to wait to be reunited with you on your last day , so why cry when they are obviously so better off where they are going ..

Any way close James ?


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## Khamelion (Nov 23, 2012)

No and seeing as an answer no by itself was not allowed, no.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 23, 2012)

so far today i found out i'm the second oldest on this forum , now your talking about funerals and no god . thanks for cheering me up


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			so far today i found out i'm the second oldest on this forum , now your talking about funerals and no god . thanks for cheering me up
		
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Chin up old boy :thup:..
Its been a great debate/thread though, that by some miracle (divine intervention ?) hasn't broke into a slanging match.
Happy days.. :clap:


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## williamalex1 (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Chin up old boy :thup:..
Its been a great debate/thread though, that by some miracle (divine intervention ?) hasn't broke into a slanging match.
Happy days.. :clap:
		
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 will try to keep all of my chins up  no probs


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## coolhand (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Chin up old boy :thup:..
Its been a great debate/thread though, that by some miracle (divine intervention ?) hasn't broke into a slanging match.
Happy days.. :clap:
		
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See absolute proof there is a God - James wins ;-p


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 23, 2012)

coolhand said:



			See absolute proof there is a God - James wins ;-p
		
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:clap: very good coolhand.
I gracefully concede.. ..





Not likely..:thup:


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Chin up old boy :thup:..
Its been a great debate/thread though, that by some miracle (divine intervention ?) hasn't broke into a slanging match.
		
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YET..... I haven't finished!!!!! 





Just kidding, ...and apparently I've won something too...... .


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2012)

I dont know how many people have actually read the Bible and understand what it says, rather than what other people tell you it says.

Interestingly enough the Bible does not tell you that people go to heaven when they die.  It actually tells you that you will not go there.


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## sev112 (Nov 23, 2012)

you are all wrong (he he he)

God doesnt exist, and neither do any of you (or me) 

we are all the figment of the imagination of a piece of algae that is slowly developing a brain and deciding whether it wznts to evolve any more, and it's currently deciding against it


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2012)

sev112 said:



			you are all wrong (he he he)

God doesnt exist, and neither do any of you (or me) 

we are all the figment of the imagination of a piece of algae that is slowly developing a brain and deciding whether it wznts to evolve any more, and it's currently deciding against it
		
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He must live in Dudley then?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Ok I'll try and explain why and describe my experience. Apologies for the tone it may contain.

I don't think I had ever cried at a funeral my whole life and on the 2nd of September this year my Mum died very suddenly, a sad and devastating day and a day I dreaded happening my whole life. My mum was not i'll so all very shocking.

Fast forward 5 days to the day of the funeral, I stayed as strong as I could for my own family, my brother and my mums 3 sisters and did not cry a tear the whole week even during the funeral however afterwards was a different kettle of fish, yes I cried and cried a lot.

Why?

I'll tell you why, I lost my mum and the stark realisation that the women who made me the person I grew to be was no longer here, I can no longer wish her happy birthday, happy christmas or happy mothers day in person. Sure I can go to the cemetary and visit and say a few words to give me a bit of comfort but it's not the same. I miss her every single day.

It's my thought that people cry at funerals because people realise that those being put to rest will no longer be there to lend an ear for a chat or sound off.
		
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As most on here know my mum sucummbed to cancer at the end of September and your post has had me reaching for the hankie again. Absolutely and completely encapusulates where I'm at


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## Val (Nov 23, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As most on here know my mum sucummbed to cancer at the end of September and your post has had me reaching for the hankie again. Absolutely and completely encapusulates where I'm at
		
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I can't say I know what your going through Martin as your circumstance was completely different but I do understand where your at.

Take it easy mate

Martin


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## USER1999 (Nov 23, 2012)

Snelly said:



			No, I am not familiar with his work Murph.  I will check it out though.
		
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History of the world in 10 1/2 chapters. The first covers Noah's ark, from the perspective of a woodworm. The best part of the book really.


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## USER1999 (Nov 23, 2012)

An interesting thought for me is, why are people who are staunch believers so afraid of death? I have worked with a few of the faithful, who have not made retirement, and all without fail were scared witless at the thought of dying. If you truly believe in god, and that you are going to a much better place, surely there is nothing to be frightened of? Ok, you'll miss your family, briefly (given an eternity in heaven, what's a few decades waiting for them), but is it not something to look forward to? Like Christmas?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			An interesting thought for me is, why are people who are staunch believers so afraid of death? I have worked with a few of the faithful, who have not made retirement, and all without fail were scared witless at the thought of dying. If you truly believe in god, and that you are going to a much better place, surely there is nothing to be frightened of? Ok, you'll miss your family, briefly (given an eternity in heaven, what's a few decades waiting for them), but is it not something to look forward to? Like Christmas?
		
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I know I am repeating this but the Bible does not say that people will go to a better place (heaven)  This is a myth perpetuated by the church to frighten people to join.   The Bible, which is the rule book for Christianity says that you will not go to heaven.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2012)

Hobbit said:



			I am a yes. I was brought up Catholic, should that read brainwashed, and had the very dubious pleasure of a Catholic school and, for those who know, the harsh discipline of the Christian Brothers - and there was little christian in their methods of discipline. At the first chance I dropped the Catholic bit and very much keep my faith and religeon to myself. For example, my mother, a God faring Irish Catholic was convinced I was a non-believer and would burn in hell. She was stunned to find out, just before she died, that I had never lost my faith but just my belief in the controlling that the church does. 

I don't think any less of a non-believer, nor do I think I'm any better. Its just who and what I am. I have a code of conduct that just happens to have some 'thing' at its pinnacle. That code of conduct is what the vast majority of the world believes, albeit with or without a God at the top.

I don't "ram it..." and in truth rarely talk about it. There's no need. It is for me what it is. If someone else wants to take it on-board there's more than enough 'experts' in the world to point them in the direction of a church and a book without me adding my muddled thoughts.
		
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murphthemog said:



			An interesting thought for me is, why are people who are staunch believers so afraid of death? I have worked with a few of the faithful, who have not made retirement, and all without fail were scared witless at the thought of dying. If you truly believe in god, and that you are going to a much better place, surely there is nothing to be frightened of? Ok, you'll miss your family, briefly (given an eternity in heaven, what's a few decades waiting for them), but is it not something to look forward to? Like Christmas?
		
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I'm not frightened of it. I am very saddened by the thought of the pain my loved ones might go through - mind you, there's one or two that might cheer.

For me its just a natural progression just like putting one foot in front of another as you walk down the street.


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## palindromicbob (Nov 24, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Oh goody hear we go.
DNA similarities excist because we have all evolved from the same slime(no not him)that evolved from complex amino acids 3.5 billion yrs ago. A process that has been reproduced in laboratories. Not yet "proved" bacause this is science, just the latest theory backed by evidence.
As for neolithic/bronze age technological abilities there is quite a lot of archeological evidence in existance. We are talking of a culture here who had only just become agrarian and yet some people believe they had the technology to build the largest ocean going vessel ever built by man out of WOOD. I'am no engineer but i would say the tollerencies involved would render this undertaking impossible.
Know for the pyramids. We now exactly how they were built. The Egyptians left written records, records recently unearthed. Interestingly the theories put forward prior to these discoveries were remarkably close to reality, but then they were theories based on the archeological evidence previously in existance.
Science is based on evidence, evidence from results garnered from experiments that can be repeated. Faith is just that, faith, it is not a theory. IMO of course :ears:
		
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The reproduction in the lab does not provide evidence of spontaneous life. In fact creationists use the fact that it take an intelligent being to provide the correct conditions as proof there is a God. Due to this science will never satisfactorily explain the creation of life in a lab to those who hold intelligent design beliefs. Annoying. 

As for the other parts, this is what I was wanting to see. The questioning mind failing to accept commonly held beliefs that are often presented by those with faith. Faith can be a blindfold to reality. This doesn't just go for God. UFOolgists, etc all end up interpreting things based on there faith in the existence of UFO etc. 

What I love about science is the willingness to adjust and change based on the available evidence and a refusal to tak a firm stance until they are sure the evidence all there. Hence so many theories.


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## Liverbirdie (Nov 24, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			To me as i said earlier , believe what you want to believe but treat others with the respect you would want in return , 

Dont confuse religions by the people that run them tho , the people who over the years have used different interpetations to sway things for their own means , can any "story" "fact" or happening be truly recounted over 5 years ? let alone thousands of years ..


Im a catholic but im not blind or mad enough to know that there are mad atrocities carried out in the name of my religion. 

Im not arrogant or bullish enough to say i obey every single rule of the catholic church , i dont . 

Im not so religious as to think my ways are right & yours are wrong , my best friend is a protestant . we would give anything for each other , not in the name of religion , in the act of friendship .     

Believe in what ever gives you hope & consolation when you need it but remember (& i know Garth Brooks put it in a song) but even before that,  sometimes unanswered prayers turn out to be the best result for you in the long run , what you want,   might not be whats best for you .. 

I have played golf , worked doors , traveled parts of the world & never asked the people i met do you or what God do you believe in ? its not important to me 

I have seen my kids born , be sick, get better & grow strong , and every time ive prayed to my God for his help & every night i thank him for the good life i have ..   
Just wanted to share that , Is there a God ? For me yes ,   believe what you wana believe but be a good person doing it 

Sorry for going on ,
		
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As Valentino said, could have written it myself. I was a brought up a Catholic the same as my mum's side, whereas my dad's side were Protestant, who always went out on the "12th". Both sides of the family know each other very well and get on well. Both sides are probably more bothered if your a blue (although both sides are red).

From earlier comments though, don't give me that science is great and religion isn't though - utter tosh. 

Science has advanced the human race in lots of ways, but has also taught us how to make bombs that can kill millions in one fell swoop,invented strains of diseases that can do the same, injure and maim animals on a daily basis, and I'm sure in time will probably do unspeakable acts in the future.

For the above, also see organised religion. Like everything on earth there is good and bad in everything. 

BTW - don't get me started on the old chestnut "most wars are fought over religion" - Pish and fip.


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## Yerman (Nov 26, 2012)

Science has produced telescopes that can detect light from billions of light years away, can detect the background radiation from the last "Big-bang" but guess who they haven't seen? (Apart from Santa)
If God designed everything -who designed him/her.
and just because he was here first does that mean he /she gets to make all the rules - (what about the R&A?)


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2012)

Yerman said:



			Science has produced telescopes that can detect light from billions of light years away, can detect the background radiation from the last "Big-bang" but guess who they haven't seen? (Apart from Santa)
If God designed everything -who designed him/her.
and just because he was here first does that mean he /she gets to make all the rules - (what about the R&A?)
		
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We are just not capable of understanding infinite space so have no certain idea of what happens way out there.   I also find it difficult to comprehend how the complexity in a string of DNA and the vast amount of information it contains evolved from a piece of Algae.


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## Yerman (Nov 26, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			We are just not capable of understanding infinite space so have no certain idea of what happens way out there.   I also find it difficult to comprehend how the complexity in a string of DNA and the vast amount of information it contains evolved from a piece of Algae.
		
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I find it difficult to comprehend the steps that led from Volta messing with metal discs and salt soaked leather to produce the first electric cell to result the surround-sound 3D TV, but that's no reason to drag a God creature into it.

I don't understand therefore God did it - really?


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## JustOne (Nov 26, 2012)

Most can't understand how to hit a draw..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2012)

Yerman said:



			Science has produced telescopes that can detect light from billions of light years away, can detect the background radiation from the last "Big-bang" but guess who they haven't seen? (Apart from Santa)
If God designed everything -who designed him/her.
and just because he was here first does that mean he /she gets to make all the rules - (what about the R&A?)
		
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Ah - but we cannae actually see a black hole can we - we can detect and observe the effect (background radiation) of something out there and then construct our understanding of what that something might be on the basis of what we can observe of it's effect - we choose to call it a black hole.

Those who believe in God see the effects of something around them - and though they cannot see that something, they construct their understanding of that entity on what they can see - and they choose to call it God.


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## JustOne (Nov 26, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Those who believe in God see the effects of something around them - and though they cannot see that something, they construct their understanding of that entity on what they can see - and they choose to call it God.
		
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I totally agree with that rationale... if you can't explain clouds... God makes them. 

(unfortunately we can expalin clouds... getting the God botherer to understand that is the hard part), many would still have you believe in an arc containing all species....


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2012)

Yerman said:



			I find it difficult to comprehend the steps that led from Volta messing with metal discs and salt soaked leather to produce the first electric cell to result the surround-sound 3D TV, but that's no reason to drag a God creature into it.

I don't understand therefore God did it - really?
		
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Please dont misquote me. I didn't mention a 'God Creature'  did I?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I totally agree with that rationale... if you can't explain clouds... God makes them. 

(unfortunately we can expalin clouds... getting the God botherer to understand that is the hard part), many would still have you believe in an arc containing all species.... 

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OK - I don't believe you scientists about black holes - show me one.

And yes - clouds are an element of the worlds climate system - and there is beauty in that system.  Did it just happen like that - we can use our scientific understandings to explain it.  But because we can explain how it works that doesn't necessarily take away from the fact that it's an incredibly efficient, clever and beautiful system that you can choose to believe happened or came about through time.  Or you might believe otherwise (btw - I am maybe being a bit of a devil's advocate in this).  

I have to add I am not a 6 day creationist.  On the 7th day God looked at what he had created and thought 'blimey - that bit of land would make a cracking links golf course'.  So - being alone and not fancying a round by himself God came up with Adam and Eve for partners.  God knew that Men and Women would be quite different but had no idea who'd be best at golf so he thought he'd best take both along to find out.  So off God went for a mixed three ball with Adam and Eve - prize being an apple for her to keep - so Eve must have won the first ever golf match.  However God was angry with Eve as she gave Adam a bite of apple (hence why winner of golf match buys drink for loser) and decided at that point that a women would henceforth struggle to beat a man at golf.  On all other matters Womankind would have the upperhandover man (or at least consider themselves to have) - but man would be happy with his lot as he would be top dog at golf and every so often would get a bitwe of his lady's apple.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 27, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			We are just not capable of understanding infinite space so have no certain idea of what happens way out there.   I also find it difficult to comprehend how the complexity in a string of DNA and the vast amount of information it contains evolved from a piece of Algae.
		
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Algae has dna socket, theres an in depth paper at www.plantcell.org detailing its evolutionary lineage through the mitochondrial dna. Not the stuff of a blockbuster though i must admit.
As for not knowing everything i couldn't agree with you more. The laws of physics though are universal so the speed of light here is the the speed of light billions of light years away, so the more we learn here the more we learn about the whole universe. We just need to keep on learning. 
Isn't science great :lol:


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 27, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			The reproduction in the lab does not provide evidence of spontaneous life. In fact creationists use the fact that it take an intelligent being to provide the correct conditions as proof there is a God. Due to this science will never satisfactorily explain the creation of life in a lab to those who hold intelligent design beliefs. Annoying. 

As for the other parts, this is what I was wanting to see. The questioning mind failing to accept commonly held beliefs that are often presented by those with faith. Faith can be a blindfold to reality. This doesn't just go for God. UFOolgists, etc all end up interpreting things based on there faith in the existence of UFO etc. 

What I love about science is the willingness to adjust and change based on the available evidence and a refusal to tak a firm stance until they are sure the evidence all there. Hence so many theories.
		
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But Bob surely the fact that a mere mortal can produce life, negates the need for a supreme being to do so ? 
Apart from that we apear to be singing from the same "hymn sheet". All the time i was doing my degree not once did i here the phrase "scientific fact". Science as you say is based on theories that are developed and expanded over time, or ultimatly shown to be inaccurate which is also an acceptable outcome because we have learned from our errors.:thup:


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 27, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I don't believe you scientists about black holes - show me one.
		
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Very clever SLH, best science joke thus far :rofl:


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## Andy808 (Nov 27, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I don't believe you scientists about black holes - show me one.
		
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As nothing can escape the gravity of a black hole even light then they can't be seen. BUT they do do something that proves their location and existance in the form of mass ejactions. Below is Centaurus A galaxy with mass ejections from the supermassive black hole shooting a million light years into space.









			These lobes are filled with matter streaming from particle jets near the galaxy's central black hole. Astronomers estimate that matter near the base of these jets races outward at about one-third the speed of light. The enormous energy output of galaxies like Cen A comes from gas falling toward a black hole weighing millions of times the sun's mass. Through processes not fully understood, some of this infalling matter is ejected in opposing jets at a substantial fraction of the speed of light. Detailed views of the jet's structure will help astronomers determine how they form. The jets strongly interact with surrounding gas, at times possibly changing a galaxy's rate of star formation. Jets play an important but poorly understood role in the formation and evolution of galaxies.
		
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## JustOne (Nov 28, 2012)

Day 4 of creation
.... the sun, moon *and the stars*, busy day with over 200 billion in our galaxy alone 

Day 6 of creation
.... mankind.... now that's my kinda day! 2 people, job done.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Day 4 of creation
.... the sun, moon *and the stars*, busy day with over 200 billion in our galaxy alone 

Day 6 of creation
.... mankind.... now that's my kinda day! 2 people, job done.
		
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He wasent Bob the Builder.


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I also find it difficult to comprehend how the complexity in a string of DNA and the vast amount of information it contains evolved from a piece of Algae.
		
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Just consider bacteria/virus and how quickly they can be transformed. The apparently random aberations over millions of instances and a sufficient number of generations can certainly have an evolutionary effect! We also have huge limitation with time. We may think biblical times were a long time ago, but in the greater scope of Earth or the Solar system, let alone start of time, that is nothing.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Just consider bacteria/virus and how quickly they can be transformed. The apparently random aberations over millions of instances and a sufficient number of generations can certainly have an evolutionary effect! We also have huge limitation with time. We may think biblical times were a long time ago, but in the greater scope of Earth or the Solar system, let alone start of time, that is nothing.
		
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OK, let me put it another way:

Human DNA contains more than 3 Billion genetic characters.  Whose mind or what entity could shrink and miniaturize such information  and place our DNA's enormous number of 'letters' in their correct  sequence as a genetic building block.


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## JustOne (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, let me put it another way:

Human DNA contains more than 3 Billion genetic characters.  Whose mind or what entity could shrink and miniaturize such information  and place our DNA's enormous number of 'letters' in their correct  sequence as a genetic building block.
		
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Your DNA strands are passed on one to the next, not created individually, so technically our DNA contains that of algae and/or every living organism that came before us on our 'chain' of evolution. There was no 'correct' sequence.. it evolved.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Your DNA strands are passed on one to the next, not created individually, so technically our DNA contains that of algae and/or every living organism that came before us on our 'chain' of evolution. There was no 'correct' sequence.. it evolved.
		
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If I filled a bath with water and came back in a million years would I expect to find a fish swimming in it?


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## JustOne (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			If I filled a bath with water and came back in a million years would I expect to find a fish swimming in it?
		
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Perhaps, if it's exposed to the elements and the occasional volcano :mmm:

...maybe a bit longer than 1 million yrs if you want a big fish though


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Perhaps, if it's exposed to the elements and the occasional volcano :mmm:

...maybe a bit longer than 1 million yrs if you want a big fish though 

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Something fishy in the air then.

A cherry stone in the ground grows into a cherry tree that grows many cherries.  These fall to the ground and some grow into more cherry trees, and so on infem item.   What are the chances of the first cherry stone evolving without a tree.


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## Iaing (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			If I filled a bath with water and came back in a million years would I expect to find a fish swimming in it?
		
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I'd hope to find enough to feed the 5000.


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## JustOne (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Something fishy in the air then.

A cherry stone in the ground grows into a cherry tree that grows many cherries.  These fall to the ground and some grow into more cherry trees, and so on infem item.   What are the chances of the first cherry stone evolving without a tree.
		
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The cherry tree followed whatever preceded it. We have trees in this county that has something that looks just like cherries on it but they're not edible ones called Prunus cerasifera.....







I'm sure something came before that... and that,...etc and probably goes back to something that didn't have a stone.. more of a pip.... and before that perhaps a seed..... and back a few more times and it was probably a grass.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The cherry tree followed whatever preceded it. We have trees in this county that has something that looks just like cherries on it but they're not edible ones called Prunus cerasifera.....







I'm sure something came before that... and that,...etc and probably goes back to something that didn't have a stone.. more of a pip.... and before that perhaps a seed..... and back a few more times and it was probably a grass.
		
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James, thats a bit of a cop out.  What ever you go back to needs a seed to start it growing.  Or, did the seed also evolve from a primeval soup?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2012)

Iaing said:



			I'd hope to find enough to feed the 5000. 

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Was that meant to be funny or intelectual?


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## Iaing (Nov 28, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Was that meant to be funny or intelectual?
		
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Why?
Are the two mutually exclusive?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2012)

Iaing said:



			Why?
Are the two mutually exclusive?
		
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Please answer with an answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2012)

I think there is a difference between believing in Creationism (i.e. what Genesis tells us) and believing their being a guiding hand/grand designer.  But even that focusses solely on the physical and not the spiritual consciousness aspect of life.


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## Snelly (Nov 29, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think there is a difference between believing in Creationism (i.e. what Genesis tells us) and believing their being a guiding hand/grand designer.  But even that focusses solely on the physical and not the spiritual consciousness aspect of life.
		
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I think that is called being agnostic?  Or sitting on the fence...


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 29, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			James, thats a bit of a cop out.  What ever you go back to needs a seed to start it growing.  Or, did the seed also evolve from a primeval soup?
		
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Every living thing on the planet has evolved from the first life that evolved 3.5 billion yrs ago. Call it what you like, soup, slime or gou it really doesn't matter, its were we all come from. Yes even the first trees, seeds and cherry trees. Darwin called it the tree of life, we, now call it the theory of evolution, a theory now widely accepted even by the mainsteam religions. The body of evidence is just to great to ignore.


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## Andy808 (Nov 29, 2012)

Stromatolites are our parents if you believe that sort of thingâ€¦
Do you know what a Stromatolite is?  I didnâ€™t until I read chapter 19 in Bill Brysonâ€™s book â€œA Short History of Nearly Everythingâ€ â€“ which I highly recommend by the way.

Well a Stromatolite is one of the first comlex living organismâ€™s that arrived on the scene called earth about 3.5 billion years ago; which is quite young considering the earth is only 4.5 billion years old.  The fascinating thing is that in Shark Bay Australia, they still exist!  Iâ€™ve never been there, but Bill Bryson says, â€œâ€¦it is a curiously giddying moment to find yourself staring at living remnants of earth as it is was 3.5 billion years ago (p299).â€

Knowing what it is, Iâ€™m in fact a bit awed by the picture, as unimpressive as it is
		
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The microbes are only on the very top surface of the structures and everything under that to the sea bed is dead Stromatolites. 
3.5 BILLION years ago. That's a tad longer than the 6 thousand years old creationists would have us believe everything is.


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## coolhand (Nov 29, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Every living thing on the planet has evolved from the first life that evolved 3.5 billion yrs ago. Call it what you like, soup, slime or gou it really doesn't matter, its were we all come from. Yes even the first trees, seeds and cherry trees. Darwin called it the tree of life, we, now call it the theory of evolution, a theory now widely accepted even by the mainsteam religions. The body of evidence is just to great to ignore.
		
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The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.


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## JustOne (Nov 29, 2012)

coolhand said:



			The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.
		
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The things that have been around millions of years are the survivors... (natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that) the rest has quite simply died out.

The branches of the evloution tree split from so far back that it could easily diversify into the vast array of life forms on the planet... and probably many new species still to come (given the opportunity), just think how many branches come off just the one oak tree trunk... and then how many twigs.... keep that going for about 3.5 billion years and that's a lot of twigs.

The whole DNA story is just getting started, as soon as we learn to read the patterns quicker than we currently can  we'll literally be able to wipe out every single deformity, many ilnesses and diseases.... then we can work until we're 150yrs old for a decent pension! :mmm:


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 29, 2012)

coolhand said:



			The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.
		
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Similar answer to James'. If the enviroment your in doesn't change then there's no need to adapt. If you like shallow, warm salty seas, with vitually no airbourne pollution, then like Andy's stromatalites you can find yourself hanging around in shark bay in western australia for billions of years. Not the same colony by the way, just the same organism, if you no what i mean :mmm:.


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## Andy808 (Nov 29, 2012)

DNA may be the blueprint for each species now and for billions of years but there was a predecessor to this in the form of RNA (Ribonucleic Acid). The only thing scientists don't know is what preceeded this but it's only a matter of time.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 29, 2012)

Andy808 said:



			DNA may be the blueprint for each species now and for billions of years but there was a predecessor to this in the form of RNA (Ribonucleic Acid). The only thing scientists don't know is what preceeded this but it's only a matter of time.
		
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Good point Andy. 
RNA is still around though in viruses i think. I believe the reason why HIV is so hard to treat is because the viruses RNA supplants its self into the hosts DNA, effectively becoming "new" DNA, Thus infecting the whole system eventually through cell division.
Any Docs please feel free to correct me, i much prefer rocks to biology


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## WeekendHacker (Nov 29, 2012)

It depends what you mean by god, but the god of theistic religion......almost certainly not. I'm baffled why in this day and age people still believe this stuff. Without wanting to offend, I think theistic religion is just an evolutionary step up from sun/fire worship.


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## Andy808 (Nov 29, 2012)

WeekendHacker said:



			It depends what you mean by god, but the god of theistic religion......almost certainly not. I'm baffled why in this day and age people still believe this stuff. Without wanting to offend, I think theistic religion is just an evolutionary step up from sun/fire worship.
		
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That far?
To be honest it's on a par. They are just for control of the minds and actions of the masses.  A government can't get the population to vote yet a 2000 year old book of stories has people going to the same place at the same time week after week.


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## coolhand (Nov 29, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The things that have been around millions of years are the survivors... (natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that) the rest has quite simply died out.

The branches of the evloution tree split from so far back that it could easily diversify into the vast array of life forms on the planet... and probably many new species still to come (given the opportunity), just think how many branches come off just the one oak tree trunk... and then how many twigs.... keep that going for about 3.5 billion years and that's a lot of twigs.

The whole DNA story is just getting started, as soon as we learn to read the patterns quicker than we currently can  we'll literally be able to wipe out every single deformity, many ilnesses and diseases.... then we can work until we're 150yrs old for a decent pension! :mmm:
		
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I was talking biological systems not species i.e:

The digestive system, it takes a lots of components working well togetherto do itâ€™s job.
Sex based reproduction â€“ very inefficient for simple reproduction, yet very effective for evolution.
Eyes.
Another thing came up in a book I'm reading on Quatum Physics:

   How come electrons and protons have equal yet opposite charges? If they didn't nothing would exisit.


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## Iaing (Nov 29, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Please answer with an answer.
		
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Just a supposed light hearted comment matey.

Hope this answers your question.


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## freddielong (Nov 29, 2012)

At last a thread everyone can agree on 


No


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## JustOne (Nov 29, 2012)

coolhand said:



			I was talking biological systems not species i.e:
The digestive system, it takes a lots of components working well togetherto do itâ€™s job.
Sex based reproduction â€“ very inefficient for simple reproduction, yet very effective for evolution.
Eyes.


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The systems haven't changed because they do their job... although the systems vary massivley from species to species (cow has 4 stomachs) I'm sure these systems are still improving however the change is so small we hardly notice it.... when the systems don't improve however.... the thing DIES.

I'll give two examples... 

1) There was recently an outbreak of ebola and some 140 people died... but some didn't? Why... it's possible that their DNA makes them more resistant to the ebola.. and they become SURVIVORS as their DNA is strong and it'll mostly get passed on to their offspring.

2) My wife had a still born, his DNA glitched and he didn't get the gene to grow kidneys.. he died. simple. 

DNA works both ways, sometimes the systems don't even form...but we only see examples where the systems *DID* form as they are the ones who are still alive! Sometimes instead of the system making a BAD mistake it's a GOOD mistake... and someone ends up with kidneys that work so flippin' well that they never have a kidney problem unfortunately no one ever notices as they're never at the doctors with a kidney complaint! 

These systems have been in development for 3 billion years... developing from the most basic/primitive systems into very complex ones... such as brains.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2012)

The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in  either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of  evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of  nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the  second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real  world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganisation and  decreased complexity.


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in  either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of  evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of  nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the  second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real  world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganisation and  decreased complexity.
		
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When you copy whole paragraphs you should quote the source...... 
http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/

icr.org ....."equips believers with evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authority"    ....now then, now then :mmm:


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2012)

JustOne said:



			When you copy whole paragraphs you should quote the source...... 
http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/

icr.org ....."equips believers with evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authority"    ....now then, now then :mmm:
		
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Dont agree there.  We all quote what we have learned from others all the time.  Argue with the meaning not the source.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 30, 2012)

Aren't we all supposed to die in 22 days

Is that why we are getting all deep n meaningful?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2012)

coolhand;702565
   How come electrons and protons have equal yet opposite charges? If they didn't nothing would exisit.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Haven't you just answered your own question in that statement?  Things exist therefore they (Es&Ps) do.  

Equal and opposite is just one combination of an infinite number of combinations - but you only need that one combination to occur (and statistically it is as likely as any other one combination) and we have stuff.  Bit like meeting someone who knows someone you know well in very unlikely circumstances etc. (our 'oh what a coincidence - what a small world' moment).

Wouldn't it be odd it be odder if you *never* met somone who knows someone you know in 'less than ordinary' circumstances.
		
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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2012)

There should have been a poll in this thread.


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## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, let me put it another way:

Human DNA contains more than 3 Billion genetic characters.  Whose mind or what entity could shrink and miniaturize such information  and place our DNA's enormous number of 'letters' in their correct  sequence as a genetic building block.
		
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Woops. Lost this thread for a day or so. Maybe the Gods meant it that way.

Seems to me that the engineer in you is coming out and that you think that there had to be a conscious decision to build something - and a certain way. The approach that the Evolution/Survival of the Fittest model takes is that random differences over vast time that created the differences. I believe there's something like 99% match between humans and other apes!

You may as well ask why we don't all look the same, or only have one colour for eyes - or skin!

Genesis also seemed to have a few issues with how long people lived too! I don't actually think that Evolution and Creation are incompatible. I just don't believe the way the Creation event was reported!


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## chris661 (Nov 30, 2012)

JustOne said:



			There should have been a poll in this thread.
		
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What do you want in in the poll?


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## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2012)

chris661 said:



			What do you want in in the poll?
		
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Yes
No
Maybe
Who Cares
There are lots of them

That should just about so.

BTW. A thought on the spiritual..... Why do they (need to) advertise Psychic Fairs?


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## macca64 (Nov 30, 2012)

No,
in my opinion


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2012)

macca64 said:



			No,
in my opinion
		
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Do you have anything that justifies this opinion?


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## forefortheday (Nov 30, 2012)

If God exists who created God?

If you believe he created himself then surely that ruins the "what was there before space" argument?

I doubt we will ever answer the question of what came before or how it all came to existence but ironically science is probably the only way of proving God exists.

Unless he decides to get Old Testament on us again.


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## stevelev (Nov 30, 2012)

I will believe anything that can be proven, so someone prove to me that GOD exists and I'm a believer, until then its just peoples faith and an inherent weakness and need to have something to turn to instead of inner strength



Bring on the crosses or arms and trunks, or legs, bellys or anything else that people worship


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## drawboy (Nov 30, 2012)

There is only one way to find out, unfortunately you will not be coming back to tell anyone, so just wait 'cos one way or another you will know for sure in the end. Believe what you want while you are here, you aint here long, that is for sure.


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## Iaing (Nov 30, 2012)

drawboy said:



			There is only one way to find out, unfortunately you will not be coming back to tell anyone, so just wait 'cos one way or another you will know for sure in the end. Believe what you want while you are here, you aint here long, that is for sure.
		
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But even if we do "go on" it doesn't mean that God exists. It could be an entirely natural process.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2012)

stevelev said:



			I will believe anything that can be proven, so someone prove to me that GOD exists and I'm a believer, until then its just peoples faith and an inherent weakness and need to have something to turn to instead of inner strength



Bring on the crosses or arms and trunks, or legs, bellys or anything else that people worship
		
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So I guess you dont believe Abraham Lincoln existed.  The only proof is in a book.

Do people actually worship Speedos?


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2012)

I only worship one thing...... *woman* :mmm:







......well several but you get the idea :cheers:


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## walshawwhippet (Dec 1, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			So I guess you dont believe Abraham Lincoln existed.  The only proof is in a book.

Do people actually worship Speedos?
		
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What a shame.
What started as a good debate argued rationally by people with differing views/ideas appears to have been hijacked by the YEC's.
Look at the eyes, the digestive system, the complexity of life, the universe etc, etc, this can't be random, there has to be a designer blah blah blah....
The problem with your views are there is no evidence  Despite all the evidence thats shows the earth to be 4.5 billion yrs old and the universe to be around 13 billion yrs old you still prattle on that there was nothing before c7k yrs ago. Your _proof_, it s in the bible.
According to your bible, man was created in gods image. If that was the case then god is no supreme being. As species go we're rubbish. We have no night vision, an inifficient digestive system, are physically weak and without clothes would still be in Africa.
The one thing that has enabled us to be as successful as we are is the evolution of our brains. This has enabled us to adapt our environment to suit us, to develope technologies and communicate ideas effectivly. Some supreme being.
As for Abe i supose the 130 or so photographs known to be in existance were knocked up by ye-olde photoshoppe.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			What a shame.
What started as a good debate argued rationally by people with differing views/ideas appears to have been hijacked by the YEC's.
Look at the eyes, the digestive system, the complexity of life, the universe etc, etc, this can't be random, there has to be a designer blah blah blah....
The problem with your views are there is no evidence  Despite all the evidence thats shows the earth to be 4.5 billion yrs old and the universe to be around 13 billion yrs old you still prattle on that there was nothing before c7k yrs ago. Your _proof_, it s in the bible.
According to your bible, man was created in gods image. If that was the case then god is no supreme being. As species go we're crap. We have no night vision, an inifficient digestive system, are physically weak and without clothes would still be in Africa.
The one thing that has enabled us to be as successful as we are is the evolution of our brains. This has enabled us to adapt our environment to suit us, to develope technologies and communicate ideas effectivly. Some supreme being.
As for Abe i supose the 130 or so photographs known to be in existance were knocked up by ye-olde photoshoppe.
		
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I thought you may have understood the tongue in cheek there.

Where have I made those comments.  Please show me where I have disagreed with the age of the earth or Universe. Where have I quoted anything from the bible.    

I have issues with whether evolution is proven, I also find it difficult to understand how such complex structures like DNA could exist without design.   You have a habit of reading what you want to hear into other peoples posts without even reading them properly.    It does you no justice.

You are entitled to your views and I will not rubbish you for them.  I may put forward a conflicting debate and dont mind others disagreeing or making alternative suggestions.   I do not like the type of immature rants that you are indulging in though.  You just did the same in another thread and as I have suggested it insults your intelligence.


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## USER1999 (Dec 1, 2012)

stevelev said:



			I will believe anything that can be proven, so someone prove to me that GOD exists and I'm a believer, until then its just peoples faith and an inherent weakness and need to have something to turn to instead of inner strength



Bring on the crosses or arms and trunks, or legs, bellys or anything else that people worship
		
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It's a belief based system. If you believe, you can't know, and if you know, you can't believe.


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## walshawwhippet (Dec 1, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought you may have understood the tongue in cheek there.

Where have I made those comments.  Please show me where I have disagreed with the age of the earth or Universe. Where have I quoted anything from the bible.    

I have issues with whether evolution is proven, I also find it difficult to understand how such complex structures like DNA could exist without design.   You have a habit of reading what you want to hear into other peoples posts without even reading them properly.    It does you no justice.

You are entitled to your views and I will not rubbish you for them.  I may put forward a conflicting debate and dont mind others disagreeing or making alternative suggestions.   I do not like the type of immature rants that you are indulging in though.  You just did the same in another thread and as I have suggested it insults your intelligence.
		
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As in my other post i apologise for my tone and apparant abruptness this morning. My excuse is red wine and the blinding headache i had this morning hic....hic..
Having read through the entire thread it would appear i have placed you in the wrong camp, again my regrets.
What i won't apologise for though is my obvious exaserbation at your reluctance to accept evolution. Why do you feel there must be a designer? Yes life is complex socket, but its been around an awful long time.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			As in my other post i apologise for my tone and apparant abruptness this morning. My excuse is red wine and the blinding headache i had this morning hic....hic..
Having read through the entire thread it would appear i have placed you in the wrong camp, again my regrets.
What i won't apologise for though is my obvious exaserbation at your reluctance to accept evolution. Why do you feel there must be a designer? Yes life is complex socket, but its been around an awful long time.
		
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As I have suggested the natural way of change tends to be towards simplification, nature tends not to move towards more complicated structures. This is known as the Second Law of Thermodynamics and no exception has ever been found to this law.

The fossil records show gaping holes between differing types, this is alo true in the suggested evolution of Humans, the link cannot be found that proves unequivocally that man has evolved from Apes.   It is not enough to suggest that man has similar features to an ape, for example Cows are more closely related to dolphins than they are to horses.

I can go on about this but in brief these are some of the things that create doubt in my mind and the minds of others.  Maybe I should ask you why you believe Evolution is proven without question.


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## 19thagain (Dec 2, 2012)

Of course He does!

I see HIM in the eyes of the homeless as I help to ease their problems with the love I have been given. It could be the food or the winter clothes or maybe me being a good listener. They normally have some story to tell that tugs the heartstrings and makes you feel 'but for the grace of God' and that makes me feel very humble in their company.

When they leave ... their handshake is stronger .. their head is higher .. and in their eyes??? The BIG FELLOW!

Religion? Now that is a different matter - you see, religion of whatever kind, is man made.


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 3, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			The fossil records show gaping holes between differing types,
		
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There is a reason for that.

I do sit firmly in one camp but I see no reason to force my beliefs on others, I just expect the same treatment in return! If I happen to turn out to be wrong I am going to stand by the decisions I made a long time ago and accept the consequences!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2012)

ScienceBoy said:



			There is a reason for that.

I do sit firmly in one camp but I see no reason to force my beliefs on others, I just expect the same treatment in return! If I happen to turn out to be wrong I am going to stand by the decisions I made a long time ago and accept the consequences!
		
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I dont get your point.  You have quoted a part of my reply to a question from someone else.   I dont follow your point on 'forcing beliefs on others' either.   Did I do that?     I have only given my opinions and answered questions, it's up to others if they want to listen or not.


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 3, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I do that?
		
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Nope, just adding something to the debate.

As for the quote, apologies must be something wrong with the forum there!


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## Ken Fitlike (Dec 4, 2012)

curisjerik said:



			Christianity and Islam praise the same God, the Scriptures and Quran both have the same tale up to the Abraham. Muslims actually believe there was a Prophet known as God. Some of the other belief systems you discuss also adhere to the same God. So as well as my opinon i will love to say that yes there is God exists in this Universe and all this is the creastion is belongs to Him.
		
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So what you're saying is that religion is like a huge game of chinese whispers?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2012)

curisjerik said:



			Christianity and Islam praise the same God, the Scriptures and Quran both have the same tale up to the Abraham. Muslims actually believe there was a Prophet known as God. Some of the other belief systems you discuss also adhere to the same God. So as well as my opinon i will love to say that yes there is God exists in this Universe and all this is the creastion is belongs to Him.
		
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Look at my post in #11.  This is cut from it.


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