# Should single sex golf clubs be allowed to exist?



## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

A couple of interesting views/opinions already posted but, what is the general thought here?

Discuss

http://nationalclubgolfer.com/featu...ould-singlesex-clubs-be-allowed-to-exist.html


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## DAVEYBOY (Dec 18, 2013)

NO!!!


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

No. Also dont like dedicated tee times.  All are equal!


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## Robobum (Dec 18, 2013)

Yeah, why not. Exclusively female or exclusively male just means another choice.

Private club totally funded and supported by itself....crack on


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## guest100718 (Dec 18, 2013)

Sure, why not.


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## pbrown7582 (Dec 18, 2013)

A club should be entitled to have its own rules and requirements if that means you have to be female or male fine i see no problem in that. If you dont like the rules dont join


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			No. Also dont like dedicated tee times.  All are equal!
		
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So to be equal you'd remove Ladies Days from clubs which are traditional Tuesdays around here.

If so, that would stand for seniors also!


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 18, 2013)

I think they should be allowed to exist,  as to change the law to ban them would have unintended consequences for other private clubs.   However I don't feel it is in the best interests of the game to allow such clubs to be affiliated to golf's governing bodies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

Private clubs should be able to run their clubs as per how the members voted. If that means no female members then that's how it should be for them - it's not illegal.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2013)

No problem with the concept of single sex clubs.

But I find a significantly higher percentage of the members than normal (at least of the Male only ones) have extremely out of date attitudes.

That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of similar attitudes in mixed clubs!


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

I think clubs should have the right to choose who they let in but it should do so on a person by person basis not a blanket ban based on gender, ethnicity, sexual preference etc


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## DCB (Dec 18, 2013)

Firstly The Royal Burgess Golfing Society isn't your run of the mill golf club. It was spawned out of the same pond as The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers and Royal Musselburgh Golf Club. Only one of the three is what could be classed as a run of the mill club nowadays. RBGS will no doubt visit the process again in years to come, but, they've made their decision and hell will freeze over before they budge on that in the meantime.

Nice course, nice clubhouse but very much an old fashioned type of environment. If that's what they want, then it's up to them. It's not for me though.


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## HotDogAssassin (Dec 18, 2013)

In response to those that have said a private club can make whatever rules they choose, if you don't like them don't join.  What if the question was based upon single race rather than single sex membership?  I'm confident that no one would advocate a club having a 'white only' rule, plus it would be unlawful.  So where's the difference?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2013)

Oh good god not again!!!!


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			In response to those that have said a private club can make whatever rules they choose, if you don't like them don't join.  What if the question was based upon single race rather than single sex membership?  I'm confident that no one would advocate a club having a 'white only' rule, plus it would be unlawful.  So where's the difference?
		
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What about The Black Lawyers Association?


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## upsidedown (Dec 18, 2013)

Yup not got a problem with it


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			In response to those that have said a private club can make whatever rules they choose, if you don't like them don't join.  What if the question was based upon single race rather than single sex membership?  I'm confident that no one would advocate a club having a 'white only' rule, plus it would be unlawful.  So where's the difference?
		
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But the question isn't based on race or colour of skin so it's irrelevant to the debate


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2013)

Of course legally they can exist.  But personally I think morally and for the good of the image of the game they should not exist, and certainly not given prestigious championships.  

But I suspect the people who run golf and who can make these changes hold slightly different, some may say more antiquated views, so unless there becomes a huge financial reason to get rid of them they will stay.


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the question isn't based on race or colour of skin so it's irrelevant to the debate
		
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While not mentioned in the OP I don't think it is irrelevant, could you imagine the uproar if a club started refusing members because of the colour of their skin? And yet having a blanket ban on one gender or the other is deemed acceptable/allowed!


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the question isn't based on race or colour of skin so it's irrelevant to the debate
		
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It's not irrelevant in the slightest. In many ways it gets right to the nub of the matter. It's currently illegal to discriminate based on race but not based on gender. The OP (I think) is asking whether it should be illegal to discriminate based on gender.

By ignoring the question and hiding behind the current legal position you are just copping out. Which seems unlike you, Liverpoolphil....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			While not mentioned in the OP I don't think it is irrelevant, could you imagine the uproar if a club started refusing members because of the colour of their skin? And yet having a blanket ban on one gender or the other is deemed acceptable/allowed!
		
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But as far as I'm aware it's not allowed to discriminate because of skin colour - where as single sex clubs are allo&#373;ed.


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

Fish said:



			So to be equal you'd remove Ladies Days from clubs which are traditional Tuesdays around here.

If so, that would stand for seniors also!
		
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Yep, everyone!   Dont see why there needs to be a ladies or
Seniors tee time. You dont get many junior or middle age tee times.  All in the same melting pot IMO


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's not irrelevant in the slightest. In many ways it gets right to the nub of the matter. It's currently illegal to discriminate based on race but not based on gender. The OP (I think) is asking whether it should be illegal to discriminate based on gender.

By ignoring the question and hiding behind the current legal position you are just copping out. Which seems unlike you, Liverpoolphil....
		
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I don't think it should be made illegal. I believe when it comes to a private men's or ladies club then people should have the right to run their club the way they wish. That's valid for golf clubs or WI


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			Yep, everyone!   Dont see why there needs to be a ladies or
Seniors tee time. You dont get many junior or middle age tee times.  All in the same melting pot IMO
		
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What do you propose to do with "men's times"?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			Yep, everyone!   Dont see why there needs to be a ladies or
Seniors tee time. You dont get many junior or middle age tee times.  All in the same melting pot IMO
		
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It's not very workable in the reality


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## Captainron (Dec 18, 2013)

I have no issue with single sex clubs at all.


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## USER1999 (Dec 18, 2013)

There are female only gyms too.


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not very workable in the reality
		
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I know.  Perhaps i'll be singing a differnt tune when i'm a oap


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			What do you propose to do with "men's times"?
		
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Mens times?  All together as one


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## HotDogAssassin (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But as far as I'm aware it's not allowed to discriminate because of skin colour - where as single sex clubs are allo&#373;ed.
		
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And that's the point exactly.   :clap:

One is illegal, but not the other, however there is a clear comparison to be made.  I can't see how one level of discrimination is acceptable but not another.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			Mens times?  All together as one
		
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So on a Saturday when the men's "big competition" is on and the tee booked all day how do you propose for the women to get a game?


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not very workable in the reality
		
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So would it not just become an 'unwritten rule' as such, everyone knows the seniors are around the course on Monday mornings and the ladies on Tuesdays mornings and as such you stay away from those days and times by choice if you can but you have the right to play at that time if you have to or need to and just have to accept that things may be slower but its not a forbidden or exclusive day/time?


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## Birchy (Dec 18, 2013)

What about mens :-

Football clubs
Rugby clubs
Cricket clubs

Are they all wrong too? What about clothing stores that cater only for men or women? Are they discriminating too?

Where do we stop? Are we allowed separate toilets or is that discrimination too?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

I have never witnessed at a club men only or ladies only or seniors only tee times 

There are comps for each category including juniors but never social tee times for each specific category


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			So on a Saturday when the men's "big competition" is on and the tee booked all day how do you propose for the women to get a game?
		
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why cant women just turn up, put their ball in the shoot (or is it chute?) and play as usual but not in the comp. We have mens comp days but women are out on the course too!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			why cant women just turn up, put their ball in the shoot (or is it chute?) and play as usual but not in the comp. We have mens comp days but women are out on the course too!
		
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Because the tee is normally reserved for the comp


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have never witnessed at a club men only or ladies only or seniors only tee times
		
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Walmley and drayton manor are serial offenders


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			So on a Saturday when the men's "big competition" is on and the tee booked all day how do you propose for the women to get a game?
		
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We used to have a block of tee times specifically for the ladies on medal days between 10am & 11am but that has disappeared as they weren't always taken up, they can now book any time so everyone and anyone can play in the medal at any time


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But as far as I'm aware it's not allowed to discriminate because of skin colour - where as single sex clubs are allo&#373;ed.
		
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Maybe I've not worded it very well, but the point I'm trying to get to is that I find it odd that clubs are legally allowed to discriminate based on gender but are forbidden by law from discriminating against skin colour, surely we shouldn't be discriminating at all?

I stand by my first post, clubs should be allowed to choose who to let in but not over something we have no choice over (barring surgical proceedures)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2013)

If I am discriminated against and that discrimination deprives me of some thing or activity I could reasonably expect to be available to me as an ordinary average citizen; or if it has a negative impact on my life or causes me some harm, then I might certainly expect that discrimination to be addressed.  Where discrimination does not deprive me of anything we could all expect to have, or it causes me no harm or has any no long term impact, and the same can be said for others so discriminated against, then I am not bothered.  

So single sex clubs of any sort I have no issue with - providing there is an alternative or equivalent that meets my reasonable needs.
.


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			So on a Saturday when the men's "big competition" is on and the tee booked all day how do you propose for the women to get a game?
		
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Our tee booking system is a ball in the chute, regardless of age, gender or anything else. Admittedly groups have found themselves times that they seem to stick to.


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## Robobum (Dec 18, 2013)

I long for a club where I can sit in the bar in just my underpants after 18holes without feeling uncomfortable. Is that really too much to ask!!??


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## Robobum (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Our tee booking system is a ball in the chute, regardless of age, gender or anything else. Admittedly groups have found themselves times that they seem to stick to.
		
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How high is the chute? Just covering all possibilities here


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## CMAC (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes!

Private club you/they can do what they like- don't see the issue


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Robobum said:



			How high is the chute? Just covering all possibilities here 

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Good point I shall arrange for a step to be put at the high end of the chute to ensure it is accessible to all!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Our tee booking system is a ball in the chute, regardless of age, gender or anything else. Admittedly groups have found themselves times that they seem to stick to.
		
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For comps ?


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## Qwerty (Dec 18, 2013)

Yep why not,I haven't got a problem at all with Ladies only Golf Clubs. If I was a lady I'd love to be a member of Somewhere like Formby ladies, lovely course.


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For comps ?
		
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With the exception of the first day of the Club Championship, yes!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			With the exception of the first day of the Club Championship, yes!
		
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So you don't have separate comps for ladies and men ?


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

Robobum said:



			I long for a club where I can sit in the bar in just my underpants after 18holes without feeling uncomfortable. Is that really too much to ask!!??
		
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Whilst on your mobile


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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you don't have separate comps for ladies and men ?
		
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Separate comps yes, restricted tee times no.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Separate comps yes, restricted tee times no.
		
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So your club doesn't close the tee when a medal or a comp is going on ?


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Separate comps yes, restricted tee times no.
		
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I like this.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 18, 2013)

Each to their own and all that! Perhaps there should be more of them and then those that are members at a mixed club but very anti the opposite gender can pootle off and leave the rest of us to enjoy mixed golf.

A big reason for joining at Brampton was the number of mixed comps in the diary (51 in 2013) plus the overall positive attitude towards mixed/female golf. Probably still a few who make wide sweeping statements about female/male golfers but it feels like they're in the minority. I played yesterday with 2 lady members and today with 2 male members (ooer!) and 1 male visitor - enjoyed both rounds equally.


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So your club doesn't close the tee when a medal or a comp is going on ?
		
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The belfry and forest of arden doesn't. But then I suppose you cant close the tee full
stop when the majority of your customers are green fee's


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## hovis (Dec 18, 2013)

And without women in the club who provides the car park entertainment? Reverse parking is a scream!


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Good point I shall arrange for a step to be put at the high end of the chute to ensure it is accessible to all!
		
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I think you'll find you'll need a ramp to make it accessible to all


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

hovis said:



			And without women in the club who provides the car park entertainment? Reverse parking is a scream!
		
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## cookelad (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So your club doesn't close the tee when a medal or a comp is going on ?
		
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Only restriction is no fourballs before 11:30 on weekend comp days!


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## CirenBhoy (Dec 18, 2013)

I have no problem with single sex clubs, I just wouldn't join/visit them. ( why would I play at aclub that wouldn't let me wife play a round with me)

i also wouldn't have any professional tournaments at them either.

Although I reckon attitudes are changing so much these days that in a couple of decades all the dinosaurs who frequent such venues will be no more and the clubs will have no choice but to open to all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Only restriction is no fourballs before 11:30 on weekend comp days!
		
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Thank god our tee is closed for comp players only regardless of age or sex then


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

CirenBhoy said:



			I have no problem with single sex clubs, I just wouldn't join/visit them. ( why would I play at aclub that wouldn't let me wife play a round with me)

i also wouldn't have any professional tournaments at them either.

Although I reckon attitudes are changing so much these days that in a couple of decades all the dinosaurs who frequent such venues will be no more and the clubs will have no choice but to open to all.
		
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Females are allowed to play at the courses - they just can't be members. There is no ladies section.


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## richart (Dec 18, 2013)

From a commercial point of view, I am surprised Clubs can afford to be single sex. I know we couldn't afford to lose nearly 100 lady members. I assume those that are must have full membership ?


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

richart said:



			From a commercial point of view, I am surprised Clubs can afford to be single sex. I know we couldn't afford to lose nearly 100 lady members. I assume those that are must have full membership ?
		
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It would seem by this comment in the link that sometimes it can be financially viable!

_I am a Member of a Prestigious, south of England, club that has 12% of the Membership to Ladies. However, we have concluded that we can substantially increase the subs by becoming an All Male club and therefore reduce the Membership and the usage of the course. The added problem is that we are blocking off a fair portion of course time for a small minority of Members. Moves are afoot to do this in the next few years and become a single sex club - after all there are All Women golf clubs. _

This comment also shows that discrimination is not one dimensional 

_Just up the road from me there is a 'Ladies Only' gym. Last year my wife and I went to our village hall to join 'Fitness for the over 50s classes' I wasn't allowed to join because I am male. The fact that I wanted to join was a source of great giggling. In our town we have a 'West Indian Society' an 'Irish club' and a 'Grampian Club'. People who are not from those geographical areas cannot be members.
Some places, Carnoustie for instance, have a Ladies club why no mention of their sexism.
Nobody seems to create a song and dance when men are excluded. It has become fashionable to knock whatever men do._


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2013)

To me single sex golf clubs created when attitudes to women were very different to what they are now (in most places anyway) are a bit like those religious types who say things like marriage should be between a man and a woman only because it says so in the bible.  Both are a bit out of date with how society has progressed and with the vast majority of modern attitudes and sensibilities.


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## DAVEYBOY (Dec 18, 2013)

Couldn't we have had a more interesting thread to all get involved in? 

Maybe a how far do you hit your driver thread? :whoo:


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## NWJocko (Dec 18, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			To me single sex golf clubs created when attitudes to women were very different to what they are now (in most places anyway) are a bit like those religious types who say things like marriage should be between a man and a woman only because it says so in the bible.  Both are a bit out of date with how society has progressed and with the vast majority of modern attitudes and sensibilities.
		
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Why the assumption this is solely about all male clubs?

Id be interested to know the age of all women clubs in St Andrews fir example (who have been asked about merging with all male clubs and rejected the idea)...


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Why the assumption this is solely about all male clubs?

Id be interested to know the age of all women clubs in St Andrews fir example (who have been asked about merging with all male clubs and rejected the idea)...
		
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Exactly, everyone is jumping on the assumption and associating this to the recent vote to allow ladies into a particular club/s membership, which is recent news and relevant, but, the same has to apply to ladies only clubs then, shouldn't it?

Whilst their are those ladies that scream for equality, equality cannot be implemented with conditions or caveats, it has to be all or nothing across the board, doesn't it?

So do I really have a 7-day membership when I know that Tuesdays is for ladies and tee times are restricted as is Mondays for seniors and Wednesdays for societies? 7-day membership only means I get to play at weekends and around those other restrictions! Is that equality?

Will the ladies only clubs open up the doors to men if those particular clubs highlighted in the link were to open up theirs to ladies, I think not personally.


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## bluewolf (Dec 18, 2013)

To the people listing other examples of single sex (and other classifications ) clubs, I'm confused. Are you saying that clubs/societies etc should be allowed to carry on as they are, or that they should all be abolished?


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

I notice that the comparisons to racism appear to have died down since the very valid point of black lawyers were raised. I'd be rather interested to know peoples opinions as to why there a groups with the prefix of 'Black' allowed at all. But that's a totally different subject. As to the. OP. My answer is yes. Any private club should be allowed and joining criteria it wished to have as long as they are lawful. As far as I can see, a men's club isn't braking any laws and is therefor fine to go ahead, there are also plenty if other clubs so people aren't being restricted to no choice at all.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes, a private club should be able to set it's own rules.

In fact, I'm thinking of starting a Dorset only private golf forum


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Yes, a private club should be able to set it's own rules.

In fact, I'm thinking of starting a Dorset only private golf forum  

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You like talking to yourself then


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			I notice that the comparisons to racism appear to have died down since the very valid point of black lawyers were raised. I'd be rather interested to know peoples opinions as to why there a groups with the prefix of 'Black' allowed at all. But that's a totally different subject. As to the. OP. My answer is yes. Any private club should be allowed and joining criteria it wished to have as long as they are lawful. As far as I can see, a men's club isn't braking any laws and is therefor fine to go ahead, there are also plenty if other clubs so people aren't being restricted to no choice at all.
		
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You don't have to be Black to join that organisation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

Fish said:



			You like talking to yourself then 

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Oh no....loads of us.....well, 4 to be precise.....that I can think of.......


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## Junior (Dec 18, 2013)

I think single sex only membership is ok.  Different strokes for different folks.  You just need to  determine your priorities  when deciding which golf club to become a member at.

Personally, quality and condition of the course, its location , regular competitions and club ameneties are paramount. I couldnt care less if the membership is all male or not.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

Junior said:



			I think single sex only membership is ok.  Different strokes for different folks.  You just need to  determine your priorities  when deciding which golf club to become a member at.

Personally, quality and condition of the course, its location , regular competitions and club ameneties are paramount. I couldnt care less if the membership is all male or not.
		
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So you're not a fan of mixed greensomes then?


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 18, 2013)

I'd only allow attractive females to be members,any under say a 6.5 need not apply!
& before any one claims this is sexist,It isn't :thup:


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## bluewolf (Dec 18, 2013)

Junior said:



			I think single sex only membership is ok.  Different strokes for different folks.  You just need to  determine your priorities  when deciding which golf club to become a member at.

Personally, quality and condition of the course, its location , regular competitions and club ameneties are paramount. I couldnt care less if the membership is all male or not.
		
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So what would you do if the best course near you was female only?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			So what would you do if the best course near you was female only?

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Go to the next best

I can't join Queenwood Golf Club with it's reputed Â£145,000 joining fee so they are discriminating on grounds of wealth by making it impossible for mere mortals to be able to afford the fees.  If it were the best course near to me unfortunately I wouldn't be able to join - so I'd go elsewhere.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

There are plenty of golf clubs that are single sex but are any of them actually limited to single sex to play the course?

Muirfield, RSG etc allow female visitors. Is this the case at all single sex clubs?


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

R&A chief executive Peter Dawson estimates that only 1% of the 3,000 golf clubs in the UK are single-sex organisations. He said: "50% are men only and 50% are women only. That's a fact that's not often reported."


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 18, 2013)

I think it is an outdated notion to have single sex clubs but as these are private members affairs they are free to choose how they want their membership to be made up. I wouldn't be a member of one irrespective of the quality of the course out of principal and to be fair, the ladies section at my club do an awful lot of work behind the scenes at social events and helping to maintain the look of the interior of the 19th


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2013)

Fish said:



			R&A chief executive Peter Dawson estimates that only 1% of the 3,000 golf clubs in the UK are single-sex organisations. He said: "50% are men only and 50% are women only. That's a fact that's not often reported."
		
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Unfortunately for Dawson - small numbers does not OK discrimination make.  However IMO the nature of the 'discrimination' we are talking about simply blinds some to the real, painful and harmful discrimination that goes on throughout society in various guises.  And ss golf clubs is not one of those forms of discrimination - the sound and fury we hear in shouts of I]discrimination [/I]is simply spite aimed at a perceived privileged group - golfers.  They don't _really _care about whether or not members of the opposite sex can be members of a ss golf club.


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## NWJocko (Dec 18, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think it is an outdated notion to have single sex clubs but as these are private members affairs they are free to choose how they want their membership to be made up. I wouldn't be a member of one irrespective of the quality of the course out of principal and to be fair, the ladies section at my club do an awful lot of work behind the scenes at social events and helping to maintain the look of the interior of the 19th
		
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Did Homer just crack a joke :whoo:

Lets hope so or this is the most ironic post of the year :rofl:


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## Jimbooo (Dec 18, 2013)

Just curious... would anyone care to list possible reasons why a club would choose to be single sex?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think it is an outdated notion to have single sex clubs but as these are private members affairs they are free to choose how they want their membership to be made up. I wouldn't be a member of one irrespective of the quality of the course out of principal and to be fair, the ladies section at my club do an awful lot of work behind the scenes at social events and helping to maintain the look of the interior of the 19th
		
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There are lots of positives about our lady members and I probably wouldn't join a ss club - but I can't predict the circumstances when the opportunity might arise so I can't say for certain.  If the members of a ss club are today happy with the arrangement, then what makes that out of date?  We are not talking about manufacturers of gas street lamps here.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 18, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think it is an outdated notion to have single sex clubs but as these are private members affairs they are free to choose how they want their membership to be made up. I wouldn't be a member of one irrespective of the quality of the course out of principal and to be fair, the ladies section at my club do an awful lot of work behind the scenes at social events and helping to maintain the look of the interior of the 19th
		
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So basically you like to have women at your club to make snacks for social events,& to choose cushions & curtains for the bar?? 
:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			So basically you like to have women at your club to make snacks for social events,& to choose cushions & curtains for the bar?? 
:rofl:
		
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And the cleaning :rofl:


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Just curious... would anyone care to list possible reasons why a club would choose to be single sex?
		
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Men don't like women?


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## London mike 61 (Dec 18, 2013)

I fully support the choice of separate clubs for both sexes because we are fortunate enough to live in a country where democracy is the norm and choice is free but personally I would never even consider joining a club that did not give equal rights to male and female members.


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## freddielong (Dec 18, 2013)

London mike 61 said:



			I fully support the choice of separate clubs for both sexes because we are fortunate enough to live in a country where democracy is the norm and choice is free but personally I would never even consider joining a club that did not give equal rights to male and female members.
		
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Yes they should people should have the right to include or exclude anyone they want from there club whatever the qualification, all this let everyone join everything is ridiculous


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

ger147 said:



			You don't have to be Black to join that organisation.
		
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No, but having read their brief, it's sole purpose is to help people that are black gain a place in law. That in itself it racist. The fact is, discrimination goes both ways. I've never heard a woman complain that they were getting cheaper insurance for their car. I'm actually surprised that it's only 1% of clubs for ss. I have no problem with woman playing golf, and have no assumptions to them being any better/worse than the average male golfer. But in general I prefer male company when participating in sports as banter can generally be had


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## freddielong (Dec 18, 2013)

The women's tour is the only tour to discriminate by sex the men's tours are open to both sexes


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## markgs (Dec 18, 2013)

wish there we no ladies on my course to slow and get away with everthing, last week there were a 5 ball ladies in front of us sharing 3 sets of clubs, on a saturday to course was backed up. If that was men doing that they would have a brown letter waiting for them


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			No, but having read their brief, it's sole purpose is to help people that are black gain a place in law. That in itself it racist. The fact is, discrimination goes both ways. I've never heard a woman complain that they were getting cheaper insurance for their car. I'm actually surprised that it's only 1% of clubs for ss. I have no problem with woman playing golf, and have no assumptions to them being any better/worse than the average male golfer. But in general I prefer male company when participating in sports as banter can generally be had
		
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You are free to have that opinion but I really don't see anything racist about it at all...


Overview of BSN
The Black Solicitors' Network (BSN) was formed in 1995 to promote the interests of black solicitors, for support and sharing information, to participate in consultations, initiated by the Law Society and other Government bodies, in relation to matters which affect black solicitors.


The BSN was recognised as a Law Society Group on the 17th July 2003.


A not-for-profit company, the Black Solicitors' Network aims to be the primary voice of black solicitors in England and Wales.


The BSN is committed to achieving equality of access, retention and promotion of black solicitors within the sector.


Over the years membership has grown to over 5,500 by 2007. An inclusive rather than exclusive organisation, our reputation is such that we also attract, and welcome, members from across the cultural and diversity spectrum.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

ger147 said:



			You are free to have that opinion but I really don't see anything racist about it at all...


Overview of BSN
The Black Solicitors' Network (BSN) was formed in 1995 to promote the interests of black solicitors, for support and sharing information, to participate in consultations, initiated by the Law Society and other Government bodies, in relation to matters which affect black solicitors.


The BSN was recognised as a Law Society Group on the 17th July 2003.


A not-for-profit company, the Black Solicitors' Network aims to be the primary voice of black solicitors in England and Wales.


The BSN is committed to achieving equality of access, retention and promotion of black solicitors within the sector.


Over the years membership has grown to over 5,500 by 2007. An inclusive rather than exclusive organisation, our reputation is such that we also attract, and welcome, members from across the cultural and diversity spectrum.
		
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Im not saying it's not a good cause, I'd also say there has been a lot if discrimination in the work place to both woman and against black people. But, if a society was set up to promote the same thing for white people online. It would be shut down before it even got started. Anyway, this is way of topic and not really a convo for a forum. So I'll leave this subject alone.


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## richart (Dec 18, 2013)

markgs said:



			If that was men doing that they would have a brown letter waiting for them
		
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 Why would they get a bill ? At my Club a five ball with 3 sets of clubs have to let you through so no real problem.


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## Robobum (Dec 18, 2013)

markgs said:



			wish there we no ladies on my course to slow and get away with everthing, last week there were a 5 ball ladies in front of us sharing 3 sets of clubs, on a saturday to course was backed up. If that was men doing that they would have a brown letter waiting for them
		
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That's your clubs fault not the ladies. Mismanagement to let such a group go out at a busy time.


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			Im not saying it's not a good cause, I'd also say there has been a lot if discrimination in the work place to both woman and against black people. But, if a society was set up to promote the same thing for white people online. It would be shut down before it even got started. Anyway, this is way of topic and not really a convo for a forum. So I'll leave this subject alone.
		
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Not only has the BNP not been shut down, it is allowed to take part in local and parliamentary elections.


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Not only has the BNP not been shut down, it is allowed to take part in local and parliamentary elections.
		
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Excuse me :angry:


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## garyinderry (Dec 18, 2013)

ive never seen a 5 ball go out with the clubs blessing at a proper golf course.  the only time ive seen 5 or more balls was on par 3 courses.  anything goes there when the sun comes out!


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

Fish said:



			Excuse me :angry:
		
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What?


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Not only has the BNP not been shut down, it is allowed to take part in local and parliamentary elections.
		
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Whilst some of their member may have been caught saying a lot of racist things, their policies aren't actually illegal. Out of date yes, but perfectly legal. Strict immigration polices, granted they go too far. But as said previously, this is neither the time nor the place.


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

ger147 said:



			What?
		
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Papas1982 respectably said it was off topic and wasn't going to comment further, but you still find it OK to carry on, push off and start a separate topic or keep to my topic, simples


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			Whilst some of their member may have been caught saying a lot of racist things, their policies aren't actually illegal. Out of date yes, but perfectly legal. Strict immigration polices, granted they go too far. But as said previously, this is neither the time nor the place.
		
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I have no comment to make about their members or their policies, just pointing out that your assertion that organisations promoting the interests of white people be shut down before they started is incorrect.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 18, 2013)

Thread is about Single sex golf clubs, lets keep it on track gents

Thanks


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread is about Single sex golf clubs, lets keep it on track *gents*

Thanks
		
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Damnable single sex threads........


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			So on a Saturday when the men's "big competition" is on and the tee booked all day how do you propose for the women to get a game?
		
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If you pay the same fees and play off the same tees there shouldn't be a problem playing in Sat comps. I thought  most lady members paid a lower membership fee.  You are a club member but not equal,  the same as juniors and midweek members.


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Damnable single sex threads........ 

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Lol


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## ger147 (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			If you pay the same fees and play off the same tees there shouldn't be a problem playing in Sat comps. I thought  most lady members paid a lower membership fee.  You are a club member but not equal,  the same as juniors and midweek members.
		
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My understanding is it is now illegal for women to be charged less and they now pay the same as the men in fees.


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## garyinderry (Dec 18, 2013)

single sex memberships are fine with me.   id object to either sex being refused permission to play as a green fee / guest.


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## richart (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			If you pay the same fees and play off the same tees there shouldn't be a problem playing in Sat comps. I thought  most lady members paid a lower membership fee.  You are a club member but not equal,  the same as juniors and midweek members.
		
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 I think ladies pay more at our Club, as the Ladies Golfing Union charge more (apologies if LGU is not the right body.)


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			If you pay the same fees and play off the same tees there shouldn't be a problem playing in Sat comps. I thought  most lady members paid a lower membership fee.  You are a club member but not equal,  the same as juniors and midweek members.
		
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Nope, same fees so equal..... nominally, if not in practice.


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## Fish (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			If you pay the same fees and play off the same tees there shouldn't be a problem playing in Sat comps. I thought  most lady members paid a lower membership fee.  You are a club member but not equal,  the same as juniors and midweek members.
		
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Not sure playing off the same tees is relevant, but I agree, if ladies pay full membership so its an adult membership not a ladies or gents separate membership fee, then they should be able to book and play any time over the weekend in comps and socially amongst everyone else, I'm sure ours do now.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 8455

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I like that.:thup:


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## chellie (Dec 18, 2013)

markgs said:



			wish there we no ladies on my course to slow and get away with everthing, last week there were a 5 ball ladies in front of us sharing 3 sets of clubs, on a saturday to course was backed up. If that was men doing that they would have a brown letter waiting for them
		
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Where on earth do you play where a 5 ball would be allowed. Also, what did the Pro and Secretary say when you complained.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope, same fees so equal..... nominally, if not in practice.
		
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 Our ladies had the opportunity to pay full fees and have equal conditions but voted against it , so they have limited access. 
But if a private club do not wish anyone to join that's up to them,  and I don't think they have to give a reason.
 It use to be called being black balled. Personally I think all clubs should be open to all females.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Our ladies had the opportunity to pay full fees and have equal conditions but voted against it , so they have limited access. 
But if a private club do not wish anyone to join that's up to them,  and I don't think they have to give a reason.
 It use to be called being black balled. Personally I think all clubs should be open to all females.
		
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Yes, the problems facing women's golf are many and varied and some lady golfers are part of the problem...... IMO! 

Totally onboard with private clubs being able to pick and choose which individuals can join but should they be able to exclude an entire category of person? I'm pretty uncomfortable with that, to be honest.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, the problems facing women's golf are many and varied and some lady golfers are part of the problem...... IMO! 

Totally onboard with private clubs being able to pick and choose which individuals can join but should they be able to exclude an entire category of person? I'm pretty uncomfortable with that, to be honest.
		
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Id imagine if they were forced to open membership up to females, but they were then subject to the same application process most if us would face at some clubs. When it came to their names being put on the notice board. The male members, who presumably joined for the exclusivity of it being male only could come up with any excuse to not accept them?


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			Id imagine if they were forced to open membership up to females, but they were then subject to the same application process most if us would face at some clubs. When it came to their names being put on the notice board. The male members, who presumably joined for the exclusivity of it being male only could come up with any excuse to not accept them?
		
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I see what you mean. Discriminating not in terms of policy but in practice....


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			Id imagine if they were forced to open membership up to females, but they were then subject to the same application process most if us would face at some clubs. When it came to their names being put on the notice board. The male members, who presumably joined for the exclusivity of it being male only could come up with any excuse to not accept them?
		
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A good few years ago clubs who accepted a interest free loan of Â£30.000.00 ? from  the R n A, were obliged to give female members the choice of full members.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			A good few years ago clubs who accepted a interest free loan of Â£30.000.00 ? from  the R n A, were obliged to give female members the choice of full members.
		
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So clubs had to accept them and not go through do process like they would for men?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2013)

London mike 61 said:



			I fully support the choice of separate clubs for both sexes because we are fortunate enough to live in a country where democracy is the norm and choice is free but personally *I would never even consider joining a club that did not give equal rights to male and female members*.
		
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That I'd go with - as it's quite different from the ss club debate


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			So clubs had to accept them and not go through do process like they would for men?
		
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 Existing female members were given the right to vote to get full membership , but ONLY if their club accepted the loan from the RnA
 Our ladies voted no thanks.
 New members would go through the normal joining process.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Existing female members were given the right to vote to get full membership , but ONLY if their club accepted the loan from the RnA
 Our ladies voted no thanks.
 New members would go through the normal joining process.
		
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I think my point was missed. I'm saying that if all male clubs were told they could no longer operate that way and had to open up membership to women. They'd simply find alternate ways to not let them in, as a pose to generally say "you're female, no".


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			I think my point was missed. I'm saying that if all male clubs were told they could no longer operate that way and had to open up membership to women. They'd simply find alternate ways to not let them in, as a pose to generally say "you're female, no".
		
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Papas , your missing the key word -private. You can play but you can't join.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2013)

Ok, I think we're talking about separate things. What I'm saying is that if a all male or all female club was told to change their ways. They'd simply find a loophole to stop the others joining. Be they a private members only club where referral is required or a open to join scheme.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Dec 18, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Men don't like women *interfering*?
		
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Fixed that for you, FD


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## JCW (Dec 19, 2013)

No , in this day and age is not PC ............so why we still have ladies day ?  anyone ......................EYG


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2013)

JCW said:



			No , in this day and age is not PC ............so why we still have ladies day ?  anyone ......................EYG
		
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Because private clubs still have members that want to stay men or women only clubs


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## CliveW (Dec 19, 2013)

richart said:



			From a commercial point of view, I am surprised Clubs can afford to be single sex. I know we couldn't afford to lose nearly 100 lady members. I assume those that are must have full membership ?
		
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Muirfield, which is as stated, a male only club, do not have annual fees. At the end of each year the running costs are divided by the membership and they are invoiced accordingly. There is also a waiting list.


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## CliveW (Dec 19, 2013)

Fish said:



			Some places, Carnoustie for instance, have a Ladies club why no mention of their sexism.
		
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Carnoustie different from many places. The clubs are independent of the course.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 19, 2013)

Yes, I believe in choice, if either sex prefer gender exclusivity then why should it not be allowed?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 19, 2013)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Yes, I believe in choice, if either sex prefer gender exclusivity then why should it not be allowed?
		
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Because excluding people from doing something they want to do/join/experience purely on the basis of their gender is generally called discrimination?


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## Birchy (Dec 19, 2013)

Lets be honest a massive percentage of women golfers don't/wont even want to play male golfers anyway. They would rather have their own day/time where they feel comfortable which I don't blame them.

In my opinion I believe there will be a bigger percentage of women golfers who don't even want to play with men than those that do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because excluding people from doing something they want to do/join/experience purely on the basis of their gender is generally called discrimination?
		
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So do you think every single single sex club in the country should be changed ? 

What about discrimination against wealth ?


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 19, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Lets be honest a massive percentage of women golfers don't/wont even want to play male golfers anyway. They would rather have their own day/time where they feel comfortable which I don't blame them.

In my opinion I believe there will be a bigger percentage of women golfers who don't even want to play with men than those that do.
		
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I think men and women playing together as opposed to belonging to the same club is a separate issue and a bit of a red herring in this context.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 19, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So do you think every single single sex club in the country should be changed ? 

What about discrimination against wealth ?
		
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Discrimination against wealth? What on earth is that - those poor wealthy people and their unfair social exclusion!?

Or do you mean discrimination against people who don't have wealth? That's called capitalism.......


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## Qwerty (Dec 19, 2013)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Yes, I believe in choice, if either sex prefer gender exclusivity then why should it not be allowed?
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			Because excluding people from doing something they want to do/join/experience purely on the basis of their gender is generally called discrimination?
		
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Would you like to take the choice away from the lady members of Formby ladies club, Wirral ladies club and Elie ladies club?  Do you view the way these clubs operate as discriminatory?

Id actually like to see more ladies Golf clubs. It could possibly be good for the game. Whats your views on this?


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## Fish (Dec 19, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think men and women playing together as opposed to belonging to the same club is a separate issue and a bit of a red herring in this context.
		
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Is it though?

If we do away with single sex clubs and everything becomes equal, as it should be, no ladies day, no restricted or preferred tee times allocated to any gender sector such as ladies, seniors etc, then everyone should be expected to mix and play together. 

 Medal days then should be open so ladies can book and play at weekends as much as men, but, would they? 

As Scott is eluding to, I think, the ladies would chose not to because as much as they want equality, they do not want to mix with men and as such equality goes out of the window.  The net result of that is less ladies joining or being members at a club because they feel intimidated by men, not all are low handicapper like your good self Kaz.

So whilst there seems to be some spotlight on some golf clubs which are ss (mens), there are apparently as many for women only also, but there doesn't seem to be the same attention being drawn to them.  After-all, there are many clubs in those area's that welcome women so its not because of a forced choice to open such an establishment, its because they want their own gender club!

I am actually surprised that there are not more ladies only clubs, because as I've said earlier, they scream for equality and I have no problem with that but it cannot come with conditions, you either lower the barrier fully or shut it!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2013)

As a member of a private members club where women have a thriving section, there would be a serious issue if their ladies day (Tuesday) was removed as many of them utilise it for their competitions and if they walked as a result and we lost their income it would close the club without question.

If there are places like Wirral Ladies that operate the same single sex policy, then how can it be discriminatory. You can't say it's so just because the number of female only clubs is far less than the male equivalent. The point remains that should you so wish and subject to the entry criteria which as far as I'm aware any private club can set up as they like (within legal constraints on race, disability etc) you can apply to join them. I don't see discrimination as the issue.

I use to belong to Wimbledon Common which use to be single sex. As a junior and even when I became an adult back in the 80's I never really considered it. As far as I was concerned that was where my mates played golf and where I wanted to play


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 19, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As a member of a private members club where women have a thriving section, there would be a serious issue if their ladies day (Tuesday) was removed as many of them utilise it for their competitions and if they walked as a result and we lost their income it would close the club without question.

If there are places like Wirral Ladies that operate the same single sex policy, then how can it be discriminatory. You can't say it's so just because the number of female only clubs is far less than the male equivalent. The point remains that should you so wish and subject to the entry criteria which as far as I'm aware any private club can set up as they like (within legal constraints on race, disability etc) you can apply to join them. I don't see discrimination as the issue.

I use to belong to Wimbledon Common which use to be single sex. As a junior and even when I became an adult back in the 80's I never really considered it. As far as I was concerned that was where my mates played golf and where I wanted to play
		
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Totally agree. You don't ear men moaning about women only golf clubs or Gyms. Men are discriminated against just as much as women IMO. We just don't go around looking for it & moaning about it as much.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2013)

A private club has the same standing as your own private house, you can refuse entry to anyone who does not have a legal warrant  , with no reason given. You just say your not getting in my house.


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## Robobum (Dec 19, 2013)

Once (if) it was made a completely level playing field for both sexes. Complete equality, equal rights, tee times etc........

Would the LGU become superfluous?
Would red tees become likewise?
How much fun would a woman have playing from the back tees?

I'd guess that it would put a number off playing due to lack of enjoyment.

I liken it to when I got married (bear with me). I love my wife and love spending time together. But there's times I want to spend with blokes and there's time the she wants to spend with other women, without interference if the other sex. That's ok to have that, it doesn't mean our marriage is crumbling. That may have come across like complete tosh, but it did make sense in my head (which is a bit sore from a few too many half shandies )


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## Adi2Dassler (Dec 19, 2013)

My dad was a five day member of Burgess back in the 70's when he worked in Saudi, can recall being there with him one day and my mum walks in to meet us.The old codger running the place nearly had a heart attack and ripped my mum to bits.Thought my auld fella was gonna get arrested.My dad left that day and never went back, I've been invited many times to play there and I refuse and explain why.

I hope one day they the fold and the place is bulldozed.


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## Robobum (Dec 19, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			My dad was a five day member of Burgess back in the 70's when he worked in Saudi, can recall being there with him one day and my mum walks in to meet us.The old codger running the place nearly had a heart attack and ripped my mum to bits.Thought my auld fella was gonna get arrested.My dad left that day and never went back, I've been invited many times to play there and I refuse and explain why.

I hope one day they the fold and the place is bulldozed.
		
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Because of one guy? Bit extreme, unless he was the appointed spokesman for the whole club.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 19, 2013)

Fish said:



			Is it though?

If we do away with single sex clubs and everything becomes equal, as it should be, no ladies day, no restricted or preferred tee times allocated to any gender sector such as ladies, seniors etc, then everyone should be expected to mix and play together. 

 Medal days then should be open so ladies can book and play at weekends as much as men, but, would they? 

As Scott is eluding to, I think, the ladies would chose not to because as much as they want equality, they do not want to mix with men and as such equality goes out of the window.  The net result of that is less ladies joining or being members at a club because they feel intimidated by men, not all are low handicapper like your good self Kaz.

So whilst there seems to be some spotlight on some golf clubs which are ss (mens), there are apparently as many for women only also, but there doesn't seem to be the same attention being drawn to them.  After-all, there are many clubs in those area's that welcome women so its not because of a forced choice to open such an establishment, its because they want their own gender club!

I am actually surprised that there are not more ladies only clubs, because as I've said earlier, they scream for equality and I have no problem with that but it cannot come with conditions, you either lower the barrier fully or shut it!
		
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I think so. If clubs want to run separate competitions it is perfectly possible to do so while fairly sharing access to the course, which, for me, is the main issue. 

Running exclusively mixed competitions is problematic in several ways. I admit that I'm personally broadly in favour and recently joined a club where that was one of the main attractions. However, it's just a fact that women cannot compete against men on a level playing field in golf so we play a shorter course. How many of the men that played our December medal, I wonder, were happy at a woman winning both the scratch and handicap prizes off a course some 1000 yards shorter than they played? It's easy to defend the rationale for a handicap comp, but the scratch is rather trickier. On a practical level, it's awkward, more time-consuming, less sociable and arguably less enjoyable when players in a group are playing from different tees. Anyway, I do think that's a thread in its own right rather than muddying the water of the single sex clubs debate. 

You do brush on a bigger problem for women's golf - a  lack of participation. That's also another thread or series of threads in its own right as the reasons for it are many and varied. One reason (and only one reason) is the perception that golf is run by and for sexist old men; men-only clubs perpetuate that myth. I deliberately say men-only in this context since it's not generally common knowledge amongst non-golfers that women-only clubs also exist. That's because the men-only clubs are higher profile, they tend to own courses (most of the ladies clubs don't), and host prestigious events.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Once (if) it was made a completely level playing field for both sexes. Complete equality, equal rights, tee times etc........

Would the LGU become superfluous?
Would red tees become likewise?
How much fun would a woman have playing from the back tees?

I'd guess that it would put a number off playing due to lack of enjoyment.
		
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OK, we're way off piste now and the notion of using the same tees is ridiculous but since this one keeps coming up here's an alternative view. The average female club golfer simply couldn't play off the back tees at many courses (could at my course, incidentally - easily), couldn't clear hazards, reach fairways etc etc on many holes. So if these clubs decided all players would use the same tees in comps, it couldn't be the back ones could it? The real question is how much fun are you lot going to have playing off the reds?


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 19, 2013)

I'd be surprised if most none golfers (men or women) actually know/or even care that men & women only courses exist.


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## Robobum (Dec 19, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			OK, we're way off piste now and the notion of using the same tees is ridiculous but since this one keeps coming up here's an alternative view. The average female club golfer simply couldn't play off the back tees at many courses (could at my course, incidentally - easily), couldn't clear hazards, reach fairways etc etc on many holes. So if these clubs decided all players would use the same tees in comps, it couldn't be the back ones could it? The real question is how much fun are you lot going to have playing off the reds?
		
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Plenty, for a short while. Drive/ chip would become boring after a while.

I don't think it is off piste. Equality*


*But only on certain things.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because excluding people from doing something they want to do/join/experience purely on the basis of their gender is generally called discrimination?
		
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My view is that reasonable equivalent alternatives are available and therefore the individual who cannot join a s/s club is suffering no hurt or loss in respect of what would be expected for the average persons life choices.  And I would expect any definition of illegal or undesirable discrimination would include these as results or by-products of any such discrimination.

So - does the WI membership discriminate on grounds of sex? Yes.  Does it matter? No. Why? Because there are alternatives that satisfy the equivalent life choice needs of blokes, and in addition blokes can take part in any/most WI organised event.


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## CMAC (Dec 19, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'd be surprised if most none golfers (men or women) actually know/or even care that men & women only courses exist.
		
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agreed!

My last club had no women, not one! my club, and I believe the other 2 clubs in the 'resort' didnt have any women members. Courses too tough? closed shop?(unlikely) however many women played as guests regularly.


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2013)

At my club, people of either (or neither) gender can play anytime. Except men can't play during the ladies day reserved times. 

At my local gym, all areas (apart from changing rooms) are open to either (or neither) gender, except the "pink room" which is for women only. Women are in the majority of the the membership, so this is unjustifiable under the law as I understand it. 

This sort of gender bias is just wrong.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Plenty, for a short while. Drive/ chip would become boring after a while.

I don't think it is off piste. Equality*


*But only on certain things.
		
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Don't play silly buggers. If you want "equality" in terms of the tees used you can have it.... I'm just challenging the common presumption that "same tees" means "white tees". It ain't necessarily so.


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## Robobum (Dec 19, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Don't play silly buggers. If you want "equality" in terms of the tees used you can have it.... I'm just challenging the common presumption that "same tees" means "white tees". It ain't necessarily so.
		
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Call them whatever colour you like, but surely a course should be played as it was designed and from its full length?

I'm not arguing that it is reasonable for us all to play from those tees as it plainly isn't.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 19, 2013)

Seems that women only like to bring up sexism when it suits.


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## BoadieBroadus (Dec 19, 2013)

I can't say that having women as members really impacts my membership in any way, other than one or two comps there is no provision for mixed comps and no one is clamouring for more. So like many I'm fairly ambivalent to female membership, if it was men only I'd still happily be a member, though I admit that would change if I were to have a daughter who expressed a strong interest in playing.

I don't really see golf as a mixed sport so I don't see the huge need to have mixed memberships. Just because both men and women can play, doesn't mean they have to or should play together.

There must be thousands of football, rugby, cricket clubs etc which are exclusively male simply due to the nature of the sports, I don't see why golf clubs should be forced to be mixed if they don't want to run a female section.


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## garyinderry (Dec 19, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			Seems that women only like to bring up sexism when it suits.
		
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after the washing, ironing and kids are in bed is usually a good time to approach it I find ! :thup:










only joking, I don't have kids


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			Seems that women only like to bring up sexism when it suits.
		
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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 8460

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I'd say it's not too far from the truth, just people are too PC to admit it.


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## brendy (Dec 19, 2013)

The world is full of double standard, I suppose you could call it being human.
If a group of fellas want a men only club, why shouldnt they, they pay for it, they own the land etc, similarly, if a group of women wanted to do the same, fair play to them and crack on.


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## One Planer (Dec 19, 2013)

brendy said:



			The world is full of double standard, I suppose you could call it being human.
If a group of fellas want a men only club, why shouldnt they, they pay for it, they own the land etc, similarly, if a group of women wanted to do the same, fair play to them and crack on.
		
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:thup:


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## Slab (Dec 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Call them whatever colour you like, *but surely a course should be played as it was designed and from its full length?*

I'm not arguing that it is reasonable for us all to play from those tees as it plainly isn't.
		
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I can easily imagine plenty higher handicap men giving up memberships if courses had to be played on its full length only

Not a hope I'd ever play again at the local course (either as a member or as a pay & play) if it was only the Langer tee's (full course length) 

In fact the more I think about it the concept would easily endanger the future of golf itself!


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 19, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			I'd say it's not too far from the truth, just people are too PC to admit it.
		
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Exactly,too many people say what they think people want to ear rather than what they think.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 19, 2013)

brendy said:



			The world is full of double standard, I suppose you could call it being human.
If a group of fellas want a men only club, why shouldnt they, they pay for it, they own the land etc, similarly, if a group of women wanted to do the same, fair play to them and crack on.
		
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Spot on mate


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Call them whatever colour you like, *but surely a course should be played as it was designed* and from its full length?

I'm not arguing that it is reasonable for us all to play from those tees as it plainly isn't.
		
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I totally agree, but surely courses are designed to be played from various tees on each hole, therefore each course is designed to be played from a choice of lengths.

Oh, and as to the OP, yes ................... without a doubt.

*Slime*.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 19, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Would you like to take the choice away from the lady members of Formby ladies club, Wirral ladies club and Elie ladies club?  Do you view the way these clubs operate as discriminatory?

Id actually like to see more ladies Golf clubs. It could possibly be good for the game. Whats your views on this?
		
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As I said earlier I have no problem with single sex clubs, I agree that a lot of ladies could conceivably feel much more comfortable in this environment, certainly there are at least two ladies only gyms in my local area.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			OK, we're way off piste now and the notion of using the same tees is ridiculous but since this one keeps coming up here's an alternative view. The average female club golfer simply couldn't play off the back tees at many courses (could at my course, incidentally - easily), couldn't clear hazards, reach fairways etc etc on many holes. So if these clubs decided all players would use the same tees in comps, it couldn't be the back ones could it? The real question is how much fun are you lot going to have playing off the reds?
		
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The reds would suit me just fine thank you:thup:


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## Qwerty (Dec 19, 2013)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Yes, I believe in choice, if either sex prefer gender exclusivity then why should it not be allowed?
		
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Sorry Arnold, I should of mentioned that I agreed with your 1st post, My post was directed at Hacker Khan who mentioned the word Discrimination.



ArnoldArmChewer said:



			As I said earlier I have no problem with single sex clubs, I agree that a lot of ladies could conceivably feel much more comfortable in this environment, certainly there are at least two ladies only gyms in my local area.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2013)

Golf and membership of a golf club is portrayed as elitist and a 'rich mans pastime' by those who have an axe to grind.  And for those of a mind seeking and seeing sex discrimination under every stone turned - golf therefore is an easy target for them against which to vent their spleen.  

Unfortunately as it is a fact that we are tarred with the elitism tag (if that is not mixing met stuff) no matter what we or ss clubs might say - mud sticks (another met to add to the mix) - and the truth about golf and golf clubs is what the liberal and wannabe proletariat believe.  And so when The Open goes to a ss club - lot's of froth and bother, and noise and naysayerism abound.  Let it be so.


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## Robobum (Dec 19, 2013)

Slime said:



			I totally agree, but surely courses are designed to be played from various tees on each hole, therefore each course is designed to be played from a choice of lengths.

Oh, and as to the OP, yes ................... without a doubt.

*Slime*.
		
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In theory yes. In practicality, perhaps new course are built that way.

A big number of tracks I have played have certain tees that make most, if not all, features redundant.


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## hoop67 (Dec 19, 2013)

The bowling club i am a member of doesn't have any female members and we are classed as sexist!!!!

We aren't sexist....you just need proposed to join by a female member


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## patricks148 (Dec 19, 2013)

Of course they should.

Itâ€™s like saying, should there be single sex Gyms, Insurance, schools.

In fact as someone said earlier Iâ€™m sure if there were more single sex clubs (for women that is) more would probably play. 

But at the end of the day few women play golf compared to Men and is the same with most sports.

Anyway 99.9 % of the population wouldnâ€™t get in the Likes of Muirfield as they wouldnâ€™t fit the membership criteria no matter what sex they were


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 19, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Golf and membership of a golf club is portrayed as elitist and a 'rich mans pastime' by those who have an axe to grind.  And for those of a mind seeking and seeing sex discrimination under every stone turned - golf therefore is an easy target for them against which to vent their spleen.  

Unfortunately as it is a fact that we are tarred with the elitism tag (if that is not mixing met stuff) no matter what we or ss clubs might say - mud sticks (another met to add to the mix) - and the truth about golf and golf clubs is what the liberal and wannabe proletariat believe.  And so when The Open goes to a ss club - lot's of froth and bother, and noise and naysayerism abound.  Let it be so.
		
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I think it's a bit naive to say that golf only has an elitist image amongst people with 'an axe to grind' or those looking to see sex discrimination everywhere. I'd say it has that image in society in general. If golf in the UK is not mostly a well off white manâ€™s slightly elitist sport then the game does a very bad job of putting forwards 'the facts' to counter that argument. And taking the open to such SS establishments does not help. In fact I'd be willing to bet that if you asked the general public outside of those who reside in clubhouses what was the biggest fuss being made before the open about this year and who won it, I bet they more would remember what the fuss was about than who won.

Perception trumps facts every single time, and wittering on about men not being able to join the WI or the black lawyers society or whatever alleged areas of discrimination there is against white males is not really going to change many minds. Whereas letting women become members of a few high profile clubs they are currently excluded from, whilst one could argue may be a mostly token gesture, will help to change that perception.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it's a bit naive to say that golf only has an elitist image amongst people with 'an axe to grind' or those looking to see sex discrimination everywhere. I'd say it has that image in society in general. If golf in the UK is not mostly a well off white manâ€™s slightly elitist sport then the game does a very bad job of putting forwards 'the facts' to counter that argument. And taking the open to such SS establishments does not help. In fact I'd be willing to bet that if you asked the general public outside of those who reside in clubhouses what was the biggest fuss being made before the open about this year and who won it, I bet they more would remember what the fuss was about than who won.

Perception trumps facts every single time, and wittering on about men not being able to join the WI or the black lawyers society or whatever alleged areas of discrimination there is against white males is not really going to change many minds. Whereas letting women become members of a few high profile clubs they are currently excluded from, whilst one could argue may be a mostly token gesture, will help to change that perception.
		
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I don't think any person or organisation should pander to peoples perceptions. And I find it offensive that in this day and age, when the biggest icon in the sport is tiger woods that the race card is even mentioned. Golf is an expensive sport when compared to many, so i agree that you needs money to play it but to say its a white mans sport is offensive to me. Is it ok for me to claim that basketball is a black mans sport? Or cricket an Asians?


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## RobRob (Dec 19, 2013)

I dont see why not! There are female only gym rooms, female only swim times so why not female only golf clubs?!


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## golfandmoregolf (Dec 20, 2013)

There is a debate on it in National Club Golfer....Interesting read.


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## CliveW (Dec 20, 2013)

golfandmoregolf said:



			There is a debate on it in National Club Golfer....Interesting read.
		
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Which, if you read the original post, prompted the whole discussion.


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## chellie (Dec 20, 2013)

Originally Posted by *markgs* 




				 wish there we no ladies on my course to slow and get away with everthing, last week there were a 5 ball ladies in front of us sharing 3 sets of clubs, on a saturday to course was backed up. If that was men doing that they would have a brown letter waiting for them



chellie said:



			Where on earth do you play where a 5 ball would be allowed. Also, what did the Pro and Secretary say when you complained.
		
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Bumping as want to know answer


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## Matty (Dec 20, 2013)

Absolutely they should be allowed to exist and should also be left alone.

There are equal opportunities from both genders to form single sex groups (or clubs or societies or institutes) and they exist both ways. If 'men only' groups are to be eradicated then the 'women only' groups must be eradicated too. But why? These groups exist because that is what those members desire - leave them to it and let them enjoy themselves while you get on with enjoying yourself.


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## London mike 61 (Dec 20, 2013)

hovis said:



			No. Also dont like dedicated tee times.  All are equal!
		
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Hear , hear. :thup:


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## Snelly (Dec 20, 2013)

Yes they should exist. 

The Peter Dawson fact about them representing 1% of all clubs and the split being 50/50 men only / women only is very relevant.  It is such a small number that the debate is pretty irrelevant in my view.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't think any person or organisation should pander to peoples perceptions. And I find it offensive that in this day and age, when the biggest icon in the sport is tiger woods that the race card is even mentioned. Golf is an expensive sport when compared to many, so i agree that you needs money to play it but to say its a white mans sport is offensive to me. Is it ok for me to claim that basketball is a black mans sport? Or cricket an Asians?
		
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May be you hang around in different clubhouses to me but I don't see that many non white middle aged male faces in the ones I've been in. I did state this is the image in the UK.  I am not saying the game is racist unless there is proof that they are direct discrimination against non white people joining clubs, as there has been in America in the past. But I am struggling to see how calling golf a game played by mostly white male middle aged people UK is being racist?  

As for basketball then I am not aware of the make up of basketball teams/clubs in the UK so can't comment.  And cricket in this country seems to have a healthy mixture of different cultures/races playing from what I can see.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 20, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			May be you hang around in different clubhouses to me but I don't see that many non white middle aged male faces in the ones I've been in. I did state this is the image in the UK.  I am not saying the game is racist unless there is proof that they are direct discrimination against non white people joining clubs, as there has been in America in the past. But I am struggling to see how calling golf a game played by mostly white male middle aged people UK is being racist?  

As for basketball then I am not aware of the make up of basketball teams/clubs in the UK so can't comment.  And cricket in this country seems to have a healthy mixture of different cultures/races playing from what I can see.
		
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Golf of today can't be blamed for for the past. Of course more white old men play golf currently as in the past there clearly was an issue with racism, but that was countrywide and not exclusively with golf. There will therefor be a timescale before it evens out. Look at football now, it's as multicultural as anything yet there still aren't many back managers. As to cricket, watch an England vs any Asian country and see which team has more support. That's not a bad complaint. Just a simple truth.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2013)

Papas1982 said:



			Golf of today can't be blamed for for the past. Of course more white old men play golf currently as in the past there clearly was an issue with racism, but that was countrywide and not exclusively with golf. There will therefor be a timescale before it evens out. Look at football now, it's as multicultural as anything yet there still aren't many back managers. As to cricket, watch an England vs any Asian country and see which team has more support. That's not a bad complaint. *Just a simple truth.*

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As is the fact that only 2% of people that play golf on a weekly basis are non white which is very low compared with other popular sports http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/may/22/uk-golf-clubs-race-issues and 16% or members are female  http://www.englandgolf.org/page.aspx?sitesectionid=329&sitesectiontitle=recruiting+women+and+girls 

Plus I am pretty sure in a recent article in GM that it was stated the UK has one of the lowest percentage of female members or players of golf in the countries that play golf. Hence my statement that is a white males sport. 

But we seemed to have strayed into the race territory when the original debate was about single sex clubs, so I'll stop now.


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## Birchy (Dec 20, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			As is the fact that only 2% of people that play golf on a weekly basis are non white which is very low compared with other popular sports http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/may/22/uk-golf-clubs-race-issues and 16% or members are female  http://www.englandgolf.org/page.aspx?sitesectionid=329&sitesectiontitle=recruiting+women+and+girls 

Plus I am pretty sure in a recent article in GM that it was stated the UK has one of the lowest percentage of female members or players of golf in the countries that play golf. Hence my statement that is a white males sport. 

But we seemed to have strayed into the race territory when the original debate was about single sex clubs, so I'll stop now.
		
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Yeah but why you quoting factual figures when perception trumps facts every time?? 

Maybe you need to get that copy of the daily mail out to find another stupid line you can copy and paste into every thread :thup:


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## bluewolf (Dec 20, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Yeah but why you quoting factual figures when perception trumps facts every time?? 

Maybe you need to get that copy of the daily mail out to find another stupid line you can copy and paste into every thread :thup:
		
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He's backing up his perception with facts mate. (Or at least facts according to the Guardian).

Now go and put down yer Daily Mail and do some work..


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## El Bandito (Dec 20, 2013)

I have no problem with them existing. I sometimes feel that society is too keen to legislate on everything. Would I join one? Im not sure that it would make any difference to my choice one way or the other.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2013)

Mind you even in my pretty enlightened place there are grumbles when a couple of ladies 4 Balls goes off the first between let's say 8:30am and 10am on a Saturday morning at this time of year.  Why?  Because of the limited tee times of a late-autumn and winters day and many of our ladies can, and do, play during the week - and quite regularly - as opposed to most men who can't.  And as it happens the same grumbles are made about seniors...!

But that's an aside and not really germane to the discussion...other than tangentially.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2013)

But is it *good *for golf that our most high profile event - and that watched by most non-golfers - can be portrayed to the wider public by a press and media always on the look out for a story as being sexist, anachronistic, for the priviliged and stuck in the dark ages.  Or does it not matter and golf needn't care what the press or public think because golf knows better.  

Olympics coming up soon - should golf do anything in respect of our discussion for then - or do we just let thing be.  And on that - surely if the Olympic Committee was at all bothered about the issue of single sex clubs it would have demanded change prior to golf being introduced to the Olympics.  I can't recall hearing ANY such discussion or concerns in that respect - however I wonder if they will start being heard as 2016 comes approaches.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 20, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Olympics coming up soon - should golf do anything in respect of our discussion for then - or do we just let thing be.  And on that - surely if the Olympic Committee was at all bothered about the issue of single sex clubs it would have demanded change prior to golf being introduced to the Olympics.  I can't recall hearing ANY such discussion or concerns in that respect - however I wonder if they will start being heard as 2016 comes approaches.
		
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The IOC make the R&A seem like an enlightened forward-thinking modern organisation. Don't get me started on the issue of winter Olympics in Russia....

.... or football world cup in Qatar for that matter!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			The IOC make the R&A seem like an enlightened forward-thinking modern organisation. Don't get me started on the issue of winter Olympics in Russia....

.... or football world cup in Qatar for that matter!
		
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Hmmm - mentioning Qatar - are all clubs in the gulf states open to women members?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But is it *good *for golf that our most high profile event - and that watched by most non-golfers - can be portrayed to the wider public by a press and media always on the look out for a story as being sexist, anachronistic, for the priviliged and stuck in the dark ages.  Or does it not matter and golf needn't care what the press or public think because golf knows better.
		
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No I don't think it's good. Yes of course the media may be looking for a stereotypical story about golf being elitist, sexist blah blah blah, but golf seems to gift wrap it and hand it to them on a very attractive porcelain plate.  Just follow what they do in the US where no courses with male only members can host the US Open and Augusta has made a token gesture of allowing 2 female members. Then the press will have no story and perceptions will change.

And if we get to the point when golf does not matter what the press or public think as they think they know better then to me that is a very arrogant attitude for the long term good of the whole game.  IMHO of course.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 20, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm - mentioning Qatar - are all clubs in the gulf states open to women members?
		
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You're kidding right?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 20, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're kidding right?
		
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Only one club in Qatar and YES  membership is open to both men & women equally. I believe the same is true in both Abu Dhabi and Dubai.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 20, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Only one club in Qatar and YES  membership is open to both men & women equally. I believe the same is true in both Abu Dhabi and Dubai.
		
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How about Saudi?

Think you missed my point..... golf club membership is the least of the problems faced by women in that part of the world.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 20, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			How about Saudi?

Think you missed my point..... golf club membership is the least of the problems faced by women in that part of the world.
		
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Aside from Saudi which really is an anachronism I am not aware of major problems faced by women in Qatar or UAE.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 20, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Aside from Saudi which really is an anachronism I am not aware of major problems faced by women in Qatar or UAE.
		
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.no post.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 20, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Saudi missed , this is getting dodgy.
		
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Eh?


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## williamalex1 (Dec 20, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Eh?
		
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I tried to edit and with draw my post.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 20, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Aside from Saudi which really is an anachronism I am not aware of major problems faced by women in Qatar or UAE.
		
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I think UAE only looks good in comparison to Saudi, but I'm no expert on the subject....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 20, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think UAE only looks good in comparison to Saudi, but I'm no expert on the subject.... 

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Our son & daughter in law live in Qatar and women seem to be regarded in the same way as UK approx 30/40 years ago, so not perfect I agree, however it is progressing. From others I understand the same could be said of UAE.

Obviously it would be great if standards were the same as the West but it must be remembered how far they have come in a short space of time.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 20, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Our son & daughter in law live in Qatar and women seem to be regarded in the same way as UK approx 30/40 years ago, so not perfect I agree, however it is progressing. From others I understand the same could be said of UAE.

Obviously it would be great if standards were the same as the West but it must be remembered how far they have come in a short space of time.
		
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I'm not an expert but have spent ten mins or so on google (lol  ) so you undoubtedly know more than me.... but I read about plenty of more worrying issues than golf club membership...

So things may well be better than they were but I think I stand by my original statement!


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