# EU Referendum



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2016)

Well, what do we all think of Mr Cameron's negotiations.
If the nation decides to remain in Europe would you trust the EU to keep their word ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2016)

It's an orchestrated stitch up that is meaningless.   What a disgrace when our PM has to go like 'Oliver Twist' to the EU asking for 'More' concessions for the way we run our country.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

Well, I intend to vote to stay regardless of what is or is not negotiated. So I therefore don't care whether Cameron achieves his objectives. 

Clearly he has not though, particularly on welfare payment delays for Johnny Foreigner (sarcastic tone)  I haven't read the details on the EU vote opt ours but I expect it is limited. 

Many sceptics said that this Cameron campaign was inevitably going to be mostly smoke and mirrors and so it seems. .


----------



## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's an orchestrated stitch up that is meaningless.   What a disgrace when our PM has to go like 'Oliver Twist' to the EU asking for 'More' concessions for the way we run our country.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron didn't have to go. He chose to do so as his finest King Harry (or Canute) moment. Instead it will end up as his Neville Chamberlsin moment.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2016)

See hes even given up on stopping immigrant EU workers getting Family Allowance for their children back home.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2016)

I think, and I do stand corrected on this. Most people have already made there minds up. Irrespective of Daves deals.


----------



## Golfmmad (Feb 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, what do we all think of Mr Cameron's negotiations.
If the nation decides to remain in Europe would you trust the EU to keep their word ?
		
Click to expand...

I think he did well to get it on the table in the first place but fear it's not enough.

As for your 2nd question - can we ever trust the EU and get every one to agree with what we think is best for G Britain.

I doubt it - but just my opinion.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2016)

I'll be voting out. I want us to be truly independent from a ruling body that is outside of the UK. As to what it will do to British exports; we import more than we export. They need our markets more than we need theirs. They will want to continue trading.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'll be voting out. I want us to be truly independent from a ruling body that is outside of the UK. As to what it will do to British exports; we import more than we export. They need our markets more than we need theirs. They will want to continue trading.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on.

They put trade tariffs on us, we put tariffs on them.  They wont want that to happen, the EU would be desperate to have a Free Trade agreement with the UK.

China, the USA, India and so on and so forth have trade agreements with the EU.   We have been fed and will be fed a lot more scare tactics as this progresses.  I'm for OUT!


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 2, 2016)

DaveCam, irrespective of the outcome of the upcoming vote, will not take us out of the EU... If the vote is to come out, he'll just use it as a bit of leverage to obtain a few more morsels, in hope the next vote gives him the result he wants...


----------



## Fish (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'll be voting out. I want us to be truly independent from a ruling body that is outside of the UK. As to what it will do to British exports; we import more than we export. They need our markets more than we need theirs. They will want to continue trading.
		
Click to expand...

This &#128077;


----------



## AMcC (Feb 3, 2016)

He may have got some alleged concessions but can you really see *all* the other member countries agreeing to it ??


----------



## chrisd (Feb 3, 2016)

So, his ministers have been saying for some years that migrant workers are net tax payers and not benefit scrounges and now his greatest achievement is to find away not to give them benefits for 4 years because so many have (apparently) Â£5 - Â£10k of tax credits etc added to their wages?  

So, they did get benefits and weren't net tax payers?


----------



## Spartacus (Feb 3, 2016)

Hey, don't blame the foreigners!


----------



## spongebob59 (Feb 3, 2016)

Waste of time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-the-Cabinet-to-rediscover-their-manhood.html


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

Well, Mr Cameron didn't set his renegotiation bar very high and it appears that he's failed to even reach that.

Can't quite believe that he is proposing to pay child benefit for kids that don't even live here. In whose mind is that an acceptable idea?!

Generally quite pro-European, but with the complete lack of a united response on the migrant crisis, a net migration tally far exceeding the infrastructure that we are building, and the blatant discrimination between how we treat EU and non-EU migrants, I'm beginning to feel that we may be better outside the EU.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Well, Mr Cameron didn't set his renegotiation bar very high and it appears that he's failed to even reach that.

*Can't quite believe that he is proposing to pay child benefit for kids that don't even live here.* In whose mind is that an acceptable idea?!

Generally quite pro-European, but with the complete lack of a united response on the migrant crisis, a net migration tally far exceeding the infrastructure that we are building, and the blatant discrimination between how we treat EU and non-EU migrants, I'm beginning to feel that we may be better outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

We already do. He was supposed to be trying to put an end to it. Needless to say the eastern European countries will say no. Their workers over here are doing very well out of it, and shipping money back. Their governments don't want the tap to new wealth coming into their country turning off.


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



*Well, Mr Cameron didn't set his renegotiation bar very high and it appears that he's failed to even reach that.
*
Can't quite believe that he is proposing to pay child benefit for kids that don't even live here. In whose mind is that an acceptable idea?!

Generally quite pro-European, but with the complete lack of a united response on the migrant crisis, a net migration tally far exceeding the infrastructure that we are building, and the blatant discrimination between how we treat EU and non-EU migrants, I'm beginning to feel that we may be better outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, it's nowhere near what, most of the sceptics require to get their vote. I think we will vote OUT, I do hope so as I am going to find it very hard to speak to anyone who votes to keep us in and, god forbid, this happens.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2016)

Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.
		
Click to expand...

Quite agree, with an oot vote I also think the English based car plants will soon change their production to mainland, probably Eastern European, countries.


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 3, 2016)

Explain why we are supposed to be classes as one big "trading bloc" and yet we measure our own stats. You are badly wrong HK. Countries will trade with us regardless. We are a huge consumer group!!!!!!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.
		
Click to expand...

Small and insignificant!   It's neither of them and what about the strain many towns and cities are experiencing on their public services.  I would say we aint seen nothing yet on that front.

Do you honestly believe the scare stories that we will lose all our trade with the EU if we leave?   You say "Isolate ourselves"  thats one of the typical scare mongering terms being used, also do you honestly believe the City will somehow implode if we are out the EU?   The EU have been suggesting they want to tax our financial services and would prefer the business in Frankfurt.


----------



## delc (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget Whisky and Oil. Oh hang on a minute, they're Scottish!  :mmm:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

delc said:



			Don't forget Whisky and Oil. Oh hang on a minute, they're Scottish!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Not at the moment:lol: but an oot vote will probably hasten that thought.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 3, 2016)

Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'll be voting out. I want us to be truly independent from a ruling body that is outside of the UK. As to what it will do to British exports; we import more than we export. They need our markets more than we need theirs. They will want to continue trading.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely +1


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Small and insignificant!   It's neither of them and what about the strain many towns and cities are experiencing on their public services.  *I would say we aint seen nothing yet on that front.*

Do you honestly believe the scare stories that we will lose all our trade with the EU if we leave?   You say "Isolate ourselves"  thats one of the typical scare mongering terms being used, also do you honestly believe the City will somehow implode if we are out the EU?   *The EU have been suggesting they want to tax our financial services and would prefer the business in Frankfurt*.
		
Click to expand...


And I'm the one using scare stories


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on - I'm 100% STAY.  Making such issues as you mention the 'highlights' of a LEAVE campaign and allowing and encouraging the electorate to believe that they are more important than all the economic, environmental etc issues/benefits is being disingenuous to say the least.  I am also quite worried and astonished that for a vote of this importance the referendum campaign and debate is going to be shoe-horned into a period of 4 months.  

Compare that with the lead up to the Scottish Referendum where there was 2 years of very fierce and generally, I think, pretty well informed debate (you can argue that many YES voters ignored the 'informed' aspect of it - but that's another matter) at all levels and all sectors of the population - and that was on top of decades of background and sometimes foreground debate on independence.

Instead we are going to have 4months of stone-throwing, sound-bites and posturing.

I watched and listened to government Europe Minister David Lidington on Newsnight last night - and despaired.  He didn't have a clue.  Lidington was almost shaking with the knowledge that he hadn't a clue.  Evan Davies tore him to bits.


----------



## delc (Feb 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. There are those in the Tory party would would like to send poor peoples' children up chimneys again! We should also remember that there are a couple of million or so UK citizens living in other EU countries who might get any benefits they get reduced on a tit-for-tat basis.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not at the moment:lol: but an oot vote will probably hasten that thought.
		
Click to expand...

I can only see a couple of scenarios where the result of the EU referendum would lead to another Scottish independence vote. If the Scottish voted to leave and the rest of the UK voted to stay in or vice versa I can see that there would be a demand for a further independence vote. But if the majority of Scots voted the same way as the rest of the UK, either in or out, then there would be no need for a new vote in Scotland.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good to see we are putting the relatively small and insignificant issue of immigrants getting benefits ahead of the wider economic implications leaving the EU will have. Do we really think that UK will continue to attract massive amounts of foreign investment if we are out of the EU? Or that many financial institutions will continue to want to base themselves here if we isolate ourselves for one of the largest trading blocs in the world? Both of which factors basically keep our economy going.  As I'm not sure our economy can sustain itself on William and Kate mugs and model Big Bens.
		
Click to expand...

The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world, of course it will continue to attract investment outside of the EU.

Believe we're also a net exporter to the EU - so see no reason why the EU countries wouldn't want to negotiate a mutually beneficial deal to continue trading.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			We already do. He was supposed to be trying to put an end to it. Needless to say the eastern European countries will say no. Their workers over here are doing very well out of it, and shipping money back. Their governments don't want the tap to new wealth coming into their country turning off.
		
Click to expand...

I know we already pay child benefit (at our rate!) to kids in other countries. And Mr Cameron is proposing to continue paying it, but at the host countries rate. I struggle to see why anything should be paid in these cases to a child that does not live here.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can only see a couple of scenarios where the result of the EU referendum would lead to another Scottish independence vote. If the Scottish voted to leave and the rest of the UK voted to stay in or vice versa I can see that there would be a demand for a further independence vote. But if the majority of Scots voted the same way as the rest of the UK, either in or out, then there would be no need for a new vote in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Which is true - but for those purporting to have the interests of the *United* Kingdom at heart, it's a hell of a risk to take.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I know we already pay child benefit (at our rate!) to kids in other countries. And Mr Cameron is proposing to continue paying it, but at the host countries rate. I struggle to see why anything should be paid in these cases to a child that does not live here.
		
Click to expand...

An so to the immigrant worker paying his taxes here - and let's say not claiming any in-work benefits - we say 'no child benefit for your kids' - why?  because they are not here?  So what? - I could ask. If they were here we would pay?  And as a result all the children of immigrants working in UK come here because UK stops paying benefit for the children currently in their own country.  That's going to help pressure on services etc.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I also think the English based car plants will soon change their production to mainland, probably Eastern European, countries.
		
Click to expand...


Which car plants are these?
The same ones that were to disappear if we failed to join the Eurozone?
Well, we didn't join [and a good job too] and those plants have flourished despite the warnings...
The same harbingers of doom then, are saying the same about 'Brexit'...
They were wrong then and I fancy they are wrong now...
I won't be listening to them...

Bottom line is, why DC is in charge, we are [sadly] going nowhere...

I was around for the first vote, and for me, none of the promises made for the ordinary working man have been met...
Might be on bits of paper floating around but majority of small businesses pay little heed to them...


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Feb 3, 2016)

delc said:



			I agree. There are those in the Tory party would would like to send poor peoples' children up chimneys again!
		
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that so long as they get changed into a jacket and tie before entering the clubhouse and don't hold me up on the course by marking their scores down after each hole whilst standing by the green.


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

My company export, mainly into Europe, which is as easy as selling at home. And a little into Turkey, which is painful, India, which is also painful and the US which is like pulling teeth. 

Our engineers drive round Europe installing our boxes, they work and travel freely and only need their passports to get in and out of Blighty. 

The advantages of the EU are blindingly obvious for me. For a postman, Doctor, or someone in manufacturing that for some reason doesn't export they might only see the cost of membership. The cost is massively outweighed by the benefit. In fact, to the economy as a whole there is no cost. 


It's a long way from perfect, but I would rather we had a say in how our nearest and most important markets are run. Not being at the table seems churlish. I can't help feeling that the no camp could do with spending some time in business, trying to improve the countries' trade deficit, then have another think.

And for those espousing the Norwegian model, they might want to check their figures. It costs them more money and they have no say. A bit like Nigel Farage.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



My company export, mainly into Europe, which is as easy as selling at home. And a little into Turkey, which is painful, India, which is also painful and the US which is like pulling teeth. 

Our engineers drive round Europe installing our boxes, they work and travel freely and only need their passports to get in and out of Blighty. 

The advantages of the EU are blindingly obvious for me. For a postman, Doctor, or someone in manufacturing that for some reason doesn't export they might only see the cost of membership. The cost is massively outweighed by the benefit. In fact, to the economy as a whole there is no cost. 


It's a long way from perfect, but I would rather we had a say in how our nearest and most important markets are run. Not being at the table seems churlish. I can't help feeling that the no camp could do with spending some time in business, trying to improve the countries' trade deficit, then have another think.

And for those espousing the Norwegian model, they might want to check their figures. It costs them more money and they have no say. A bit like Nigel Farage.

Click to expand...

Easy there thinking of the wider picture and bringing some real life informed experience into the debate instead of relying on political dogmas and right wing newspaper headlines.  You'll get this forum a bad name....


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Easy there thinking of the wider picture and bringing some real life informed experience into the debate instead of relying on political dogmas and right wing newspaper headlines.  You'll get this forum a bad name....

Click to expand...




Sorry, I'll do my best to regurgitate ill-informed highly biased crap from the press in future. I'll have a look and see what Messr's Murdoch and Dacre want me to think...

...


..

.



Jesus! No!

I wonder what Polly Toynbe thinks..

...


..


.


Dear god!

And these people get paid to spout this sh1t!


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Which car plants are these?
The same ones that were to disappear if we failed to join the Eurozone?
Well, we didn't join [and a good job too] and those plants have flourished despite the warnings...
The same harbingers of doom then, are saying the same about 'Brexit'...
They were wrong then and I fancy they are wrong now...
		
Click to expand...

The fact is, manufacturing in the UK works because our nearest customers are easy to deal with. I don't remember any major manufacturers actually saying they would leave the UK if we didn't join the the Eurozone. I do remember some politically motivated people in the press and some politicians saying it though.. 

The manufacturers are pretty clear this time. They have published their own statements and although the cost of moving might keep them here in the short term, longer term as plant needs replacing and factories deteriorate, new infrastructure will be built wherever export costs and staffing costs are most favorable. We could still lose them in any 
case, but we should at least fight to keep them.  





			I won't be listening to them...
		
Click to expand...

Genius.:clap:




			Bottom line is, why DC is in charge, we are [sadly] going nowhere...
		
Click to expand...

I can't stand DC, but we have gone somewhere. Employment is at an all time high and the economy is growing slowly out of one of the worst recessions we've ever had. 




			I was around for the first vote, and for me, none of the promises made for the ordinary working man have been met...
		
Click to expand...


Oh, ok, so you think working conditions haven't massively improved since 1975 hahhahahhahahhahahaha? wow. Nothing much will please you then!




			Might be on bits of paper floating around but majority of small businesses pay little heed to them...
		
Click to expand...

Much of what the EU does is providing standards for us to all work to. Not that long ago my companies products would only have met UK standards, i would have had to implement huge changes to meet German standards, then go through the whole expensive process again to meet French standards, and so on,  and so on. We have trouble selling into the US because UL standards are totally different to CE standards. These "bits of paper" are real things that bring real benefits. 

now you might argue that we could still conform to those standards outside of Europe. And you would be right. But inside of Europe we also get to influence (via our elected MEP's*) those standards, we get to have a say and make sure that we are not negatively affected by those standards. 



*Unless you voted for that gibbering moron Farage, who takes his MEP money, but does no work in return. He's the real COST in Europe.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

And let's not forget the environment.  A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation.  Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation

And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And let's not forget the environment.  A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation.  Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation
		
Click to expand...

Spot on! 




			And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...
		
Click to expand...


People love to have something to blame, as long as it isn't themselves ;-)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Spot on! 




People love to have something to blame, as long as it isn't themselves ;-)
		
Click to expand...

As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate.  The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life.  When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today.  And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate.  The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life.  When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today.  And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.
		
Click to expand...

Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.
		
Click to expand...

 Immigration may well be #1 issue where you live but where I live it is a total non subject. [Apart from the UKIP types who fortunately are extremely rare]
I think a lot of Scots welcome immigrants and our country certainly has the capacity and ability to take them.
[Only hard working tax paying families of course.]

Re earlier post......... I saw a recent poll that stated that of those who had made up their minds 65% of Scots wished to remain in the EU


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.
		
Click to expand...

It is - but when you ask folk why you often get spurious, ill-founded or ill-informed answers.  And when pressed further you find that the concerns folk have aren't really as a result of their own personal experience - only what they have heard, read or been told about.  And we know how reliable that sort of thing can be - especially in a society that is always looking to blame others for their problems and ills.

And even with those who should know these things - take David Lidington (Europe Minister) for instance last night on Newsnight - he had no idea how many immigrants are attracted to this country by the benefits system.  No idea at all.  But many of the public will tell us that that is a huge issue for them.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

Just a thought if we vote out.......will all of those overpaid European football stars who fall  over when a defender comes within a couple of feet of them now have to seek a work permit?

I suppose there could be plusses:lol:


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.
		
Click to expand...


Immigration isn't an issue where I live, I know some areas have had to deal with more than most. There are those that will use any excuse to blame migrants for their own woes. leaving Europe won't stop them.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.
		
Click to expand...

Except the Tories would not be unfettered. We have elections for that.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 3, 2016)

Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, the problem with this whole debate and indeed the referendum itself, is that none of us, including the Prime Minister know the consequences of staying in or leaving. If we stay in will the very small concessions received to date be vetoed and more importantly, if we leave, will we have a trading agreement and if so, what form will it take?
Without knowing the consequences of a vote either way, how is the electorate supposed to come to a decision on probably the most important ballot of our time?


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And let's not forget the environment.  A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation.  Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation

And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...
		
Click to expand...

To be honest SILH, I am not to sure the environment  issue adds up. I have seen the local council plans for the housing that is required/planned in the Mansfield area as requested by the government and it is frightening. my grandkids are gonna grow up not knowing what grass is never mind what colour it was. That is whilst still being in the EU. that is a countrywide request re councils providing planning on brownfield sites not just Mansfield.
Also I am not to sure that The environment as important as it is, is a main concern to Mr and Missis Joe Public.
Doon, immigration may not be an issue to yourselves oop north. But to people who live in Shirebrook etc that see 3,000 migrants working in jobs (sports direct hq) that were promised to regenerate mining communities, unfortunately it is a massive issue.
Not wanting to get into another immigration, environment discussion as I have already mentioned I think most folk have already made there minds up.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Except the Tories would not be unfettered. We have elections for that.
		
Click to expand...

We are looking at 20+yrs maybe 30yrs of Tory government.  Our FPTP electoral system is useless when you have a weak and almost unelectable main opposition party.  And with the changing of boundaries the Tories are putting through (20 Labour seats gone); Labour just about to come up for air for the 3rd time in Scotland (40 seats gone); evisceration of Labour party funding from the trade unions etc. we are looking at Tory rule for possible the rest of my life.  Utterly depressing - and yes - unfettered Tories.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate.  *The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life.  When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today.  And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to*.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with a lot of that.  To me there just seems to be a lot of wishful reminiscing by some people and a goal of returning to how Britain was in the 1950s. Plus the inevitable impulse to blame easy targets on the fact your life has not turned out at expected/you have to wait to get a doctors appointment etc etc. 

Which in some way is understandable as we now live in troubling and often confusing times with the unpleasant rise of nationalism and isolated but very prominent pockets religious fundamentalism abound.  I mean take a step back and just consider what has happened where we have got to the stage that people like Trump and Cruz could be very close to running a major western super power.  But that is the world we now live in.  

I'd agree we need to deal best with the hear and now, and most importantly ensure our kids and our kids kids have a sustainable economic and environmentally sound future. Many people expect access to natural resources to be the next reason why people go to war, if it is not already. But unfortunately politicians mostly work in the very short term and are mostly concerned about how they will be elected at the next election. And all this debate about immigrants claiming child benefits to me is at best a side issue in the EU debate.


----------



## JamPal (Feb 3, 2016)

Ahhh the 1950's.  Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*..  such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are looking at 20+yrs maybe 30yrs of Tory government.  Our FPTP electoral system is useless when you have a weak and almost unelectable main opposition party.  And with the changing of boundaries the Tories are putting through (20 Labour seats gone); Labour just about to come up for air for the 3rd time in Scotland (40 seats gone); evisceration of Labour party funding from the trade unions etc. we are looking at Tory rule for possible the rest of my life.  Utterly depressing - and yes - unfettered Tories.
		
Click to expand...

Hope so.

Mmm, choices. Labour who couldn't run a in a brewery or.... Cons are the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Ahhh the 1950's.  Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*..  such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..
		
Click to expand...

I think it is UKIP that wants to roll the clock back to the 1950s. 

Seems like the Tories want to go back to pre-welfare state, and maybe bring the workhouse back. Not sure what year that is, but things were pretty grim for ordinary people then.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hope so.

Mmm, choices. Labour who couldn't run a in a brewery or.... Cons are the lesser of two evils.
		
Click to expand...

I did say a couple of weeks after the UK election that the Tories would probably revert to normal and start fighting within themselves.
A few on hear laughed.
I think we are about to see the full extent of the bitterness within the Tory party regarding Europe.
It appears that the only hope for the UK is for the Tories to split and a new centre rightish party [Con/Lab alliance] to arise.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Ahhh the 1950's.  Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*..  such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..
		
Click to expand...

You forgot the mass invasion of Italian ex POW's and their families who decided SE Scotland was a good place to live.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I did say a couple of weeks after the UK election that the Tories would probably revert to normal and start fighting within themselves.
A few on hear laughed.
I think we are about to see the full extent of the bitterness within the Tory party regarding Europe.
It appears that the only hope for the UK is for the Tories to split and a new centre rightish party [Con/Lab alliance] to arise.
		
Click to expand...

Think you could be right on the tory infighting, will be interesting to see the Labour response to this.

Not heard anyone on here yet say whether they think the deal that Dave has secured is a good un.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.
		
Click to expand...

Current Employment legislation is definitely EU-centric. That, supposedly, is one of the benefits of EU membership! Should  

It's absolutely crucial though to realise that Human Rights legislation/final rulings most definitely i not EU, but the ECHR (the 'C' is for Convention here, not Court), though the EU does have its own Charter - one of the pieces of beauracracy I would be happy to see eliminated as all EU members are signatories to the ECHR and simply making that a requirement of membership would suffice! Of course, just like Home Affairs ministers who fail to get their way, the EU prefer to 'control' everything in their own jurisdiction! The 'subsidiarity' the John Major was so proud of negotiating at Maastricht has been eroded or often ignored - and I believe it's the restoration of that concept (either within the framework of EU membership, or by actually leaving it) that is the real issue. The apparent 'let's just ignore it' approach to the European Parliament certainly doesn't help!

The, all too common, misconception that Human Rights are controlled by the EU is promoted by the right wing Press and governments who fail to get their way in the Courts and push poor, ill-considered, often specific case based, legislation through Parliament, or even obscenely use processes to avoid even that scrutiny!

The EU Referendum and any debate on the European Convention on Human Rights are completely separate!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And I'm the one using scare stories 

Click to expand...

Thats not a scare stort, it's a fact.  Read this link then suggest it's a scare story!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-financial-transaction-tax-legal-challenge


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



My company export, mainly into Europe, which is as easy as selling at home. And a little into Turkey, which is painful, India, which is also painful and the US which is like pulling teeth. 

Our engineers drive round Europe installing our boxes, they work and travel freely and only need their passports to get in and out of Blighty. 

The advantages of the EU are blindingly obvious for me. For a postman, Doctor, or someone in manufacturing that for some reason doesn't export they might only see the cost of membership. The cost is massively outweighed by the benefit. In fact, to the economy as a whole there is no cost. 


It's a long way from perfect, but I would rather we had a say in how our nearest and most important markets are run. Not being at the table seems churlish. I can't help feeling that the no camp could do with spending some time in business, trying to improve the countries' trade deficit, then have another think.

And for those espousing the Norwegian model, they might want to check their figures. It costs them more money and they have no say. A bit like Nigel Farage.

Click to expand...

My Company traded Worldwide and never had any real problems with doing that. we had more problems with nit picking EU regulations.   We trade at a deficit with the EU so why is it such an important market for us, surely it's the other way round.  

Who says we would need to trade using the Norwegian model, it probably suits them as almost all their trade is within the EU and they have a trade surplus with it.   Other countries around the world trade with the EU and are not tied up with EU red tape.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not a scare stort, it's a fact.  Read this link then suggest it's a scare story!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-financial-transaction-tax-legal-challenge

Click to expand...

Did you notice the date on the article? Keeps getting deferred and only applies to those that wish to apply it! UK does not need to apply it!

UK already has a financial transaction tax!


----------



## Ethan (Feb 3, 2016)

Here is some insightful coverage:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...res-leftover-sandwiches-for-uk-20160203105866


----------



## JohnnyDee (Feb 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Here is some insightful coverage:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...res-leftover-sandwiches-for-uk-20160203105866

Click to expand...

Excellent insight into the hard work Dave has done on behalf of Daily Fail readers.

As Winston Churchill himself might have put it, "Anyone got a big fat Cuban cigar?"

Bravo!!


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Immigration isn't an issue where I live, I know some areas have had to deal with more than most. There are those that will use any excuse to blame migrants for their own woes. leaving Europe won't stop them.
		
Click to expand...

Of course. But if you look at it pragmatically, a stable population would have struggled with the cuts to public services in recent years. Let alone one that is increasing by 1 million people every 3 years.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Immigration may well be #1 issue where you live but where I live it is a total non subject. [Apart from the UKIP types who fortunately are extremely rare]
I think a lot of Scots welcome immigrants and our country certainly has the capacity and ability to take them.
[Only hard working tax paying families of course.]

Re earlier post......... I saw a recent poll that stated that of those who had made up their minds 65% of Scots wished to remain in the EU
		
Click to expand...

I'd wager that average house prices in your neck of the woods aren't 12x average salaries and rising at 15% year on year.

Anything that the government could do to make other areas of the country more attractive than the south east and hence spread the benefits of immigration across the country as a whole would be welcome.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is - but when you ask folk why you often get spurious, ill-founded or ill-informed answers.  And when pressed further you find that the concerns folk have aren't really as a result of their own personal experience - only what they have heard, read or been told about.  And we know how reliable that sort of thing can be - especially in a society that is always looking to blame others for their problems and ills.

And even with those who should know these things - take David Lidington (Europe Minister) for instance last night on Newsnight - he had no idea how many immigrants are attracted to this country by the benefits system.  No idea at all.  But many of the public will tell us that that is a huge issue for them.
		
Click to expand...

That's a very generalising post.

I'm talking about simple mathematics. If 330,000 people came to the country last year and we built 140,000 new homes then there is going to be a squeeze on housing. That pressure must extend onto public services and travel infrastructure. 

I'm all for the benefits of a net immigration, but it's got to be properly planned for which doesn't seem to be happening.

And unfortunately there isn't a referendum on e.g. more house building. But there is one on reducing the other side of the issue.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Here is some insightful coverage:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...res-leftover-sandwiches-for-uk-20160203105866

Click to expand...

That's starting to sway my judgement.   Dave has suggested that every household will get a fair share of the doggy bags and if he said it then it's a certainty.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not a scare stort, it's a fact.  Read this link then suggest it's a scare story!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-financial-transaction-tax-legal-challenge

Click to expand...

Forgot to add to previous reply....

Absolutely love the picture of Osborne in that link! :rofl:

One thing I love about (all) the Media is how they select the picture to match the tone/focus of the article!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Forgot to add to previous reply....

Absolutely love the picture of Osborne in that link! :rofl:

One thing I love about (all) the Media is how they select the picture to match the tone/focus of the article!
		
Click to expand...

He's not looking happy :smirk:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I'd wager that average house prices in your neck of the woods aren't 12x average salaries and rising at 15% year on year.

Anything that the government could do to make other areas of the country more attractive than the south east and hence spread the benefits of immigration across the country as a whole would be welcome.
		
Click to expand...

He lives in a little Hamlet under a Scottish mountain.   I can see where he's coming from when he says that immigration isn't an issue where he lives


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 3, 2016)

How much does it cost us to be in the EU on an annual basis? The last figure I read was we are a nett contributor to the tune of Â£10bn per annum. Is that figure still correct?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not a scare stort, it's a fact.  Read this link then suggest it's a scare story!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-financial-transaction-tax-legal-challenge

Click to expand...

The tax is a proposed tax on all transactions in the EU as a way of trying to make the financial institutions pay their way after all the assistance they got during the crisis.  And it needs all countries in the EU to agree to it to implement it across the EU.  Which the UK will not do unless it is implemented globally. So I believe 14 or so countries in the EU will possibly implement it, with the UK not being one of them.  The ones that don't sign up to it can join at any time if they so desire.

Therefore it is not a story of the 'nasty EU' coming to raid the UK, and therefore your honour I would put it to the to the jury that it is another scare story about how the EU will make us destitute on behalf of the Out of Europe party.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate.  The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life.  When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today.  And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.
		
Click to expand...


So what is the answer.   Do you suggest that we have open borders and unlimited immigration?  If not then what?

Why is it selfish for us to want to protect the benefits and life we and our forefathers have worked to create.   It is possible to take a great deal of control over your borders but as members of the EU we will not be able to do that.  As the EU continues it's lemming like policy of  taking in more lame duck economies and some with large populations then we are open to immigration on a scale we have not seen the likes of yet.  No matter how much our hearts bleed we will not be able to create suitable infrastructures to cope and the result will be a downward trend on standards of living and quality of life plus a surge of support for the far right.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I'd wager that average house prices in your neck of the woods aren't 12x average salaries and rising at 15% year on year.

Anything that the government could do to make other areas of the country more attractive than the south east and hence spread the benefits of immigration across the country as a whole would be welcome.
		
Click to expand...

Please correct me if I am wrong in your assessment....... you are all right jack with a hugely overpriced house which means the rUK outside of SE England have to leave the EU against their wishes.
The megabucks of wealth that is being spent on the transport system around London IMO is a huge waste of the UK's wealth.
What is the point of getting on a train from Birmingham to London 20 minutes quicker if it is only going to increase congestion.

If you cannot afford to buy a house in SE England tough, do as the Scots have done since the 16th century move to better yourself.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please correct me if I am wrong in your assessment....... you are all right jack with a hugely overpriced house which means the rUK outside of SE England have to leave the EU against their wishes.
The megabucks of wealth that is being spent on the transport system around London IMO is a huge waste of the UK's wealth.
What is the point of getting on a train from Birmingham to London 20 minutes quicker if it is only going to increase congestion.

If you cannot afford to buy a house in SE England tough, do as the Scots have done since the 16th century move to better yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Not often Mr Troon but you are indeed wrong on that assessment!

Agree that HS2 is a collosal waste of Â£50bn or however much it is now which could be much better spent on regional services. I hear up north they've still got busses running on train lines.

I'd very entertain thoughts of a move to Scotland (or elsewhere), the biggest stumbling block personally is family. If I could move all of my and my partner's family with us, it's a no-brainer.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He lives in a little Hamlet under a Scottish mountain.   I can see where he's coming from when he says that immigration isn't an issue where he lives 

Click to expand...

Dunno mate, I had a nice wee chat with a Polish lady at the vets the other day. Surprisingly I also have a car and travel around a bit.
I have even been known to talk to people. [hope that did not spoil your silly wee patronsing post] 

Large sections of Scottish businesses in the underpopulated areas could not survive without Eastern European and Ossie/NZ staff. They are very welcome, they join in and contribute a great deal to our culture.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dunno mate, I had a nice wee chat with a Polish lady at the vets the other day. Surprisingly I also have a car and travel around a bit.
I have even been known to talk to people. [hope that did not spoil your silly wee patronsing post] 

*Large sections of Scottish businesses in the underpopulated areas could not survive without Eastern European and Ossie/NZ staff.* They are very welcome, they join in and contribute a great deal to our culture.
		
Click to expand...

Tell that to the 170,000 unemployed in Scotland.


----------



## MarkE (Feb 3, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How much does it cost us to be in the EU on an annual basis? The last figure I read was we are a nett contributor to the tune of Â£10bn per annum. Is that figure still correct?
		
Click to expand...

Someone stood up in the house of commons today and stated it was Â£9 billion net per year. Imagine what the Uk could do with that each year, rather than propping up poorer eu nations.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not often Mr Troon but you are indeed wrong on that assessment!

Agree that HS2 is a collosal waste of Â£50bn or however much it is now which could be much better spent on regional services. I hear up north they've still got busses running on train lines.

I'd very entertain thoughts of a move to Scotland (or elsewhere), the biggest stumbling block personally is family. If I could move all of my and my partner's family with us, it's a no-brainer.
		
Click to expand...


Speaking of Scottish trains. 
Thanks to a EU grant, in the Borders we actually have the first new rail line in the UK since the Beeching cuts.
It was delivered on time, on budget [thanks Mr Swinney] and it is proving to be a huge success.
Hopefully they will extend it to Carlisle in the future.  
Getting a third Forth bridge soon too, thanks to EU money.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Tell that to the 170,000 unemployed in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Is that all, gone down again, they are the natives who do not want to work.
I am CERTAIN that you know that every country has them.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of Scottish trains. 
Thanks to a EU grant, in the Borders we actually have the first new rail line in the UK since the Beeching cuts.
It was delivered on time, on budget [thanks Mr Swinney] and it is proving to be a huge success.
Hopefully they will extend it to Carlisle in the future.  
Getting a third Forth bridge soon too, thanks to EU money.
		
Click to expand...

and the UK is still a nett contributor. It's very good of the EU to give us OUR money back. Pity they don't let us have the othe Â£9billion...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			and the UK is still a nett contributor. It's very good of the EU to give us OUR money back. Pity they don't let us have the othe Â£9billion...
		
Click to expand...

If we'd had that other Â£9 billion DfT could've had a golden train pulled by flying unicorns and think how happy he would've been then.


----------



## JohnnyDee (Feb 3, 2016)

If I was the collective that is the rest of Europe I'd be happily asking for Britain to resign its membership immediately. I'd be totally fed up with our posturing and delusional self-important nonsense, in particular our continual whining on about how we're special and must be treated as being above the rest of the pack.

I don't doubt that Britain outside Europe would still trade and be sought after by the other countries, but what narks me is this arrogant 'we're better than them' ignorant self-aggrandising nonsense. 

Murdoch's right-wing media bile, and Farage's UKIP ignorant drivel are nothing but risible jingoistic jokes for moronic Daily Fail readers, and none of it cuts any ice with me whatsoever. Unless, of course, I want to buy a bendy banana but can only get hold of a Brussels-sanctioned straight one, in which case I'm happy to become Angry of Tunbridge Wells and do a bit of enraged foaming at the mouth. 

If there is a vote in June then I'll be putting my X against remaining in.


----------



## User20205 (Feb 3, 2016)

As it stands I would vote to stay in.
I don't begrudge polish kids their family allowance on a micro scale but to me it seems a nonsense to give benefits and free use of a already stretched NHS to someone from another country, on a general scale. 

However it's the fear of the unknown that would keep me in. No one can categorically say for certain what would happen if we left, & that worries me.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			If we'd had that other Â£9 billion DfT could've had a golden train pulled by flying unicorns and think how happy he would've been then.
		
Click to expand...

Naw, I prefer engines pulling my trains.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			and the UK is still a nett contributor. It's very good of the EU to give us OUR money back. Pity they don't let us have the othe Â£9billion...
		
Click to expand...

Do you think those two projects would have gone ahead if Westminster had controlled that Â£9m.....call me an old cynic but I doubt it.


----------



## delc (Feb 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please correct me if I am wrong in your assessment....... you are all right jack with a hugely overpriced house which means the rUK outside of SE England have to leave the EU against their wishes.
The megabucks of wealth that is being spent on the transport system around London IMO is a huge waste of the UK's wealth.
What is the point of getting on a train from Birmingham to London 20 minutes quicker if it is only going to increase congestion.

If you cannot afford to buy a house in SE England tough, do as the Scots have done since the 16th century move to better yourself.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of that much being spent on the transport infrastructure around London, particularly the roads, which are now completely gridlocked in the morning and evening rush hours. They haven't kept pace with the ever increasing population around here!


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			I wasn't aware of that much being spent on the transport infrastructure around London!
		
Click to expand...

Now i know you're on the wind up!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

From my perspective the only part of the EU worth while is the free trade agreement but that has been over regulated  to a degree that it's now more of a manacle than a benefit.    The rest of the EU  is of no use to us and has become a form of suffocating comfort blanket that we can do without.   This Nation is more than capable of governing ourselves and it would be like a breath of fresh air to do so.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			I wasn't aware of that much being spent on the transport infrastructure around London, particularly the roads, which are now completely gridlocked in the morning and evening rush hours. They haven't kept pace with the ever increasing population around here!
		
Click to expand...

I think if you are expecting the roads in London not to be gridlocked at peak commuter times than you are living in la la land.  They are in any city due to the massive amount of people that are trying to use a road system that more often than not laid out many decades, even centuries ago when the population and car ownership was a fraction of what it is now.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Which car plants are these?
The same ones that were to disappear if we failed to join the Eurozone?
Well, we didn't join [and a good job too] and those plants have flourished despite the warnings...
The same harbingers of doom then, are saying the same about 'Brexit'...
They were wrong then and I fancy they are wrong now...
I won't be listening to them...

Bottom line is, why DC is in charge, we are [sadly] going nowhere...

I was around for the first vote, and for me, none of the promises made for the ordinary working man have been met...
Might be on bits of paper floating around but majority of small businesses pay little heed to them...
		
Click to expand...

Boss of Ford UK was on radio 5 this morning.  Who said that they employ 14,000 people in the UK and the easy access to the EU free market was essential for Ford in the UK.  Think he made it pretty clear where they, and I am pretty sure every other car manufacturer in the UK stand.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			From my perspective the only part of the EU worth while is the free trade agreement but that has been over regulated  to a degree that it's now more of a manacle than a benefit.    The rest of the EU  is of no use to us and has become a form of suffocating comfort blanket that we can do without.   *This Nation is more than capable of governing ourselves and it would be like a breath of fresh air to do so*.
		
Click to expand...

I am sure we are more than capable of governing ourselves.  Germany for instance seems to manage it very well. But to me the big question is will 'going it alone' in a world of increasing economic globalisation ensure the long term social, economic and environmental future of this nation.  Or will it be a doomed attempt by people to go back to a by gone age that will never actually return.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So what is the answer.   Do you suggest that we have open borders and unlimited immigration?  If not then what?

*Why is it selfish for us to want to protect the benefits and life we and our forefathers have worked to create. *  It is possible to take a great deal of control over your borders but as members of the EU we will not be able to do that.  As the EU continues it's lemming like policy of  taking in more lame duck economies and some with large populations then we are open to immigration on a scale we have not seen the likes of yet.  No matter how much our hearts bleed we will not be able to create suitable infrastructures to cope and the result will be a downward trend on standards of living and quality of life plus a surge of support for the far right.
		
Click to expand...

Because the world has changed and the pressures on Europe have changed.  And in the same way that some see it as our 'duty' to join with the US, France and the coalition countries in fighting Daesh/ISIS - I see it that we have a duty to work with all other European countries to manage the migration from the Middle east and elsewhere.  After all do these other European countries not also have 'benefits of life' that they and their forefathers have worked for?  Of course they do.  We are no different but many of us like to think that we are.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

therod said:



			As it stands I would vote to stay in.
I don't begrudge polish kids their family allowance on a micro scale but to me it seems a nonsense to give benefits and free use of a already stretched NHS to someone from another country, on a general scale. 

However it's the fear of the unknown that would keep me in. No one can categorically say for certain what would happen if we left, & that worries me.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't seen even the basic outline of any plan to establish a UK that has left the EU in European and global trading and economic bodies (that LEAVE tell us we'll be able to join); nor any costs and criteria to be met associated with joining and being members of such bodies; nor the costs or timescales of untangling the UK from EU legislation.  Nothing.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			and the UK is still a nett contributor. It's very good of the EU to give us OUR money back. Pity they don't let us have the othe Â£9billion...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we forget the 'off-balance sheet' benefits the UK and we who live here get from the UK being in the EU - environmental, freedom of travel and work etc.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps we forget the 'off-balance sheet' benefits the UK and we who live here get from the UK being in the EU - environmental, freedom of travel and work etc.
		
Click to expand...

Seem to be that many UK citizens travel the world for work and play. Yes, there are local laws on immigration in those countries but we seem to get by. 

Environmental; I can remember the clean ups that were done in the 60's and 70's in an area of heavy industry. We weren't in the EU in the 60's, and it was a Common Market in the 70's, not a federal state.

It isn't what we originally signed up for. If it returned to being a Common Market/trading bloc, I would have no problem being part of it. But not a federal state with them making laws. There are cultural and political differences across Europe. I don't want, e.g. a eastern/western European bloc determining laws that suit them but not us.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Seem to be that many UK citizens travel the world for work and play. Yes, there are local laws on immigration in those countries but we seem to get by. 

Environmental; I can remember the clean ups that were done in the 60's and 70's in an area of heavy industry. We weren't in the EU in the 60's, and it was a Common Market in the 70's, not a federal state.

It isn't what we originally signed up for. If it returned to being a Common Market/trading bloc, I would have no problem being part of it. But not a federal state with them making laws. There are cultural and political differences across Europe. I don't want, e.g. a eastern/western European bloc determining laws that suit them but not us.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't what we signed up for?. That is a pretty weak argument, isn't it? How many people who voted for or against the EU understand the complexity of international agreements, trade or laws? Even in this debate, most of those opposing the EU seem to think it is only about trade and all these laws made in Brussels. They don't seem to even know that the EU is responsible for a huge range of things including the approval and safety of medicines, air traffic control, anti-discrimination, consumer rights, regulating internet security not to mention keeping peace in a Europe which had 2 huge wars in the preceding half century.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It isn't what we signed up for?. That is a pretty weak argument, isn't it? How many people who voted for or against the EU understand the complexity of international agreements, trade or laws? Even in this debate, most of those opposing the EU seem to think it is only about trade and all these laws made in Brussels. They don't seem to even know that the EU is responsible for a huge range of things including the approval and safety of medicines, air traffic control, anti-discrimination, consumer rights, regulating internet security not to mention keeping peace in a Europe which had 2 huge wars in the preceding half century.
		
Click to expand...

You telling me they do more than make us straighten our bananas??


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Boss of Ford UK was on radio 5 this morning.  Who said that they employ 14,000 people in the UK and the easy access to the EU free market was essential for Ford in the UK.  Think he made it pretty clear where they, and I am pretty sure every other car manufacturer in the UK stand.
		
Click to expand...


At the time we were considering entering the Eurozone the managements of Toyota, Nissan and Honda plus I am sure others all said if we didn't sign up there would be a good chance they would  be gone... Well, they are still here... The head of JCB [though not necessarily a car manufacturer in the truest sense] has long since indicated leaving wouldn't be an issue and he favours leaving anyway...

Back in the day a lot of my family worked for the blue oval and Ford haven't really been UK worker 'friendly' since the Dagenham Girls...


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps we forget the 'off-balance sheet' benefits the UK and we who live here get from the UK being in the EU - environmental, freedom of travel and work etc.
		
Click to expand...

You think those 'benefits' outweigh the negatives?

We are quite capable of looking after our own environment. Travel was never an issue pre-EU, I've got a passport and perfectly able to apply for a visa if required. 

Work? There are more people coming into this country to work than emigrating to work abroad. 

I agree we don't know what lies ahead if we decided to leave the EU but I'm prepared to take the chance as I think at present there are some pretty serious issues in the UK.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

https://twitter.com/search?q=#WhoWillSpeakForEngland&src=tyah&lang=en-gb 

For anyone on twitter this is funny.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It isn't what we signed up for?. That is a pretty weak argument, isn't it? How many people who voted for or against the EU understand the complexity of international agreements, trade or laws? Even in this debate, most of those opposing the EU seem to think it is only about trade and all these laws made in Brussels. They don't seem to even know that the EU is responsible for a huge range of things including the approval and safety of medicines, air traffic control, anti-discrimination, consumer rights, regulating internet security not to mention keeping peace in a Europe which had 2 huge wars in the preceding half century.
		
Click to expand...

There's some very big assumptions in there Ethan. And the EU being responsible for those things, and imposing those laws on the UK is very much what I'm against, and yes I am aware of by who and where they are made.

As for your comment about keeping peace in Europe, that's pretty weak too. WW2 ended in 45, and the Common Market/federal state was formed/morphed into its current being a long time after 45.

You have one view on why, and I have another. Yours appears to be around being part of a federal Europe, with European laws, and I wish to be part of a Common Market/trading bloc but retaining a very clear national identity and control.

Dissect it whatever way you wish, and you're right in your eyes, but you're yet to come close to changing my mind on what I would prefer.


----------



## JohnnyDee (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



https://twitter.com/search?q=#WhoWillSpeakForEngland&src=tyah&lang=en-gb 

For anyone on twitter this is funny.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is, very funny!!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			At the time we were considering entering the Eurozone the managements of Toyota, Nissan and Honda plus I am sure others all said if we didn't sign up there would be a good chance they would  be gone... Well, they are still here... The head of JCB [though not necessarily a car manufacturer in the truest sense] has long since indicated leaving wouldn't be an issue and he favours leaving anyway...

Back in the day a lot of my family worked for the blue oval and Ford haven't really been UK worker 'friendly' since the Dagenham Girls...
		
Click to expand...

GlaxoSmithKline chairman yesterday says - yes let's get some reforms "_but it's better to be in and improving it than to be on the outside trying to plot a new course"_ He went on to say that he liked the regulatory certainty and predictability of the EU.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			There's some very big assumptions in there Ethan. And the EU being responsible for those things, and imposing those laws on the UK is very much what I'm against, and yes I am aware of by who and where they are made.

As for your comment about keeping peace in Europe, that's pretty weak too. WW2 ended in 45, and the Common Market/federal state was formed/morphed into its current being a long time after 45.

You have one view on why, and I have another. Yours appears to be around being part of a federal Europe, with European laws, and I wish to be part of a Common Market/trading bloc but retaining a very clear national identity and control.

Dissect it whatever way you wish, and you're right in your eyes, but you're yet to come close to changing my mind on what I would prefer.
		
Click to expand...

I don't expect to change your mind. Not trying.

The EU is the offspring of prior organisations set up in the 1950s, including the 1951 European Coal and Steel Community, which evolved into the 1958 EEC. Not that long after WW2, really. Whether it has prevented war or not is certainly debatable.

The EU imposes few pieces of primary legislation on the UK. And most of that which it does is good law.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



https://twitter.com/search?q=#WhoWillSpeakForEngland&src=tyah&lang=en-gb 

For anyone on twitter this is funny.
		
Click to expand...

They just can't help themselves can they.........that headline will run and run.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			GlaxoSmithKline chairman yesterday says - yes let's get some reforms "_but it's better to be in and improving it than to be on the outside trying to plot a new course"_ He went on to say that he liked the regulatory certainty and predictability of the EU.
		
Click to expand...



There are two things I really don't give two hoots about...

The views of big business and the Tory press....

Both, for me, tell porkys to suit their agendas...


----------



## Snelly (Feb 4, 2016)

I want out. 

It has been highly beneficial for Norway.  I think we will go the same way.


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think if you are expecting the roads in London not to be gridlocked at peak commuter times than you are living in la la land.  They are in any city due to the massive amount of people that are trying to use a road system that more often than not laid out many decades, even centuries ago when the population and car ownership was a fraction of what it is now.
		
Click to expand...

The traffic wasn't anything like as bad as it is now only five or six years ago. Most of it seems to be related to the school run, because the roads are OK in the school holidays. I suspect that a lot of the kids in school are the children of all the immigrants that were allowed to flood into the UK by the last New Labour Government, and things are only going to get worse when the next lot arrive, unless a lot of money is spent on new infrastructure!


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I want out. 

It has been highly beneficial for Norway.  I think we will go the same way.
		
Click to expand...

The UK is more like Germany than Norway. Norway has substantial natural resources and is a net creditor to the world. They have had coalition governments for decades and provide excellent welfare and social security benefits. Many goods are hideously expensive and the cost of living is the highest in Europe.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

drive4show said:



*You think those 'benefits' outweigh the negatives?

We are quite capable of looking after our own environment.* Travel was never an issue pre-EU, I've got a passport and perfectly able to apply for a visa if required. 

Work? There are more people coming into this country to work than emigrating to work abroad. 

I agree we don't know what lies ahead if we decided to leave the EU but I'm prepared to take the chance as I think at present there are some pretty serious issues in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting that they outweigh them - just that they do not seem to matter - as all that seems to matter to LEAVE is 'we pay more money in than we get back'

And I have no doubt that we are capable of looking after our own environment - after all we are doing it at the moment - in accordance with EU statutes.  Remove such control and requirements, and with business hand-in-glove with 20-30yrs of Tory government - well I'm not so sure that the same business that funds and supports Tory government won't be looking for some relaxations and a different approach to environmental protection.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I want out. 

It has been highly beneficial for Norway.  I think we will go the same way.
		
Click to expand...

Norway has never been in the EU!

Its best decision was, imo, not rejection of EU membership by its voters, but the setting up of The Oil Fund for excess profits from its North Sea fields! Norway's economy is significantly (vastly even!) different than UK's but that's where its greatest wealth is - as opposed to the UK's simple spending of the proceeds form it ones!


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			The traffic wasn't anything like as bad as it is now only five or six years ago. Most of it seems to be related to the school run, because the roads are OK in the school holidays. I suspect that a lot of the kids in school are the children of all the immigrants that were allowed to flood into the UK by the last New Labour Government, and things are only going to get worse when the next lot arrive, unless a lot of money is spent on new infrastructure!  

Click to expand...


I blame UBER myself and the folk that use their service because using the public mass transport system is beneath them...

But, each to their own...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 4, 2016)

Ask a Norwegian salmon farmer if he'd like to be in the EU. Being outside is costing them Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£ (or whatever passes for money in them foreign parts).


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			as all that seems to matter to LEAVE is '*we pay more money in than we get back*'
		
Click to expand...

Yes this undoubtedly an issue for me personally but certainly not the only one.

Immigration is a big issue for me. I'm sorry but I just don't buy into this theory that we need all the immigrants to fill the low paid jobs. We have a shed load of perfectly capable people dossing about because we are all too willing to pay them benefits. I'm sorry but the Government does NOT owe them a living. Why can't they get off their backsides and earn a living instead of sitting at home? 

I wonder what their decision would be if they had the choice of taking a low paid job or receiving no benefits and going hungry. I left school in 1977 and I've been unemployed for a total of 6 months in my career. Sometimes I've had to do jobs I would rather not do but at least I was earning my living and holding my head up.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes this undoubtedly an issue for me personally but certainly not the only one.

Immigration is a big issue for me. I'm sorry but I just don't buy into this theory that we need all the immigrants to fill the low paid jobs. *We have a shed load of perfectly capable people dossing about because we are all too willing to pay them benefits. I'm sorry but the Government does NOT owe them a living. Why can't they get off their backsides and earn a living instead of sitting at home? *

I wonder what their decision would be if they had the choice of taking a low paid job or receiving no benefits and going hungry. I left school in 1977 and I've been unemployed for a total of 6 months in my career. Sometimes I've had to do jobs I would rather not do but at least I was earning my living and holding my head up.
		
Click to expand...

Which may be true but surely that has zilch to do with immigration.


----------



## JamPal (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			My Company traded Worldwide and never had any real problems with doing that. we had more problems with nit picking EU regulations.   We trade at a deficit with the EU so why is it such an important market for us, surely it's the other way round.  

Who says we would need to trade using the Norwegian model, it probably suits them as almost all their trade is within the EU and they have a trade surplus with it.   Other countries around the world trade with the EU and are not tied up with EU red tape.
		
Click to expand...


What EU red tape?

in the electronics world we call them standards. All nations have standards, even independent ones. In the EU those standards have been harmonised so we can all trade freely. It's brilliant. The best thing about the EU is the harmonised standards.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which may be true but surely that has zilch to do with immigration.
		
Click to expand...

I think it has everything to do with immigration. If every eastern European was to leave the country tomorrow there would be an abundance of jobs to allocate to the scroungers. They would then be paying taxes instead of living off them.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			What EU red tape?

in the electronics world we call them standards. All nations have standards, even independent ones. In the EU those standards have been harmonised so we can all trade freely. It's brilliant. The best thing about the EU is the harmonised standards.
		
Click to expand...

If we left the EU, what is preventing your company from carrying on manufacturing to those same standards?


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which may be true but surely that has zilch to do with immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it does, because immigrants are taking the jobs that our young people could do!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			What EU red tape?

in the electronics world we call them standards. All nations have standards, even independent ones. In the EU those standards have been harmonised so we can all trade freely. It's brilliant. The best thing about the EU is the harmonised standards.
		
Click to expand...

I think that would be the special imaginary Daily Fail red tape, only certain people can see it.

I see they are advertising for somebody to speak for England........priceless replies:lol:


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I blame UBER myself and the folk that use their service because using the public mass transport system is beneath them...

But, each to their own...
		
Click to expand...

UBER?  The trains, tubes and buses into and around London are also pretty packed in the rush hour!  Many more people seem to be commuting by bicycle. The UK has about the same population as France and Germany, but only about a quarter of the land mass, not all of which is habitable. England's green and pleasant land is slowly being covered by urban sprawl, particularly in the South-East, often with little thought about the necessary infrastructure, e.g. Roads, water supplies and drainage, schools, hospitals and doctors surgeries!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that would be the special imaginary Daily Fail red tape, only certain people can see it.

I see they are advertising for somebody to speak for England........priceless replies:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Seems like you read it as you are well informed on their editorial.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			What EU red tape?

in the electronics world we call them standards. All nations have standards, even independent ones. In the EU those standards have been harmonised so we can all trade freely. It's brilliant. The best thing about the EU is the harmonised standards.
		
Click to expand...

Standards!  We don't even use the same plugs

Yes, EU Red Tape.  You know it's Red and made of Tape.   Don't take my word that it exists, how about the 18 EU major Countries that are trying to get it reduced.   Read this : https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-18-other-eu-countries-call-for-business-red-tape-reduction


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like you read it as you are well informed on their editorial.
		
Click to expand...

The Daily Fail, you have to be joking.
I did have a really good laugh at some of the on line/twitter replies to the headline though, quite made my day.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Daily Fail, you have to be joking.
I did have a really good laugh at some of the on line/twitter replies to the headline though, quite made my day.
		
Click to expand...

So you don't really know what they said, only what someone down the Pub said.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			What EU red tape?

in the electronics world we call them standards. All nations have standards, even independent ones. In the EU those standards have been harmonised so we can all trade freely. It's brilliant. The best thing about the EU is the harmonised standards.
		
Click to expand...

And that harmonisation is complemented and enhanced by the fact that - as the boss of GSK said - it is in the context of regulatory certainty and predictability.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

drive4show said:



			If we left the EU, what is preventing your company from carrying on manufacturing to those same standards?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing - except being outside of the EU you would have no way of influencing these standards - you would just have to adhere to whatever the EU determined for these standards - and these might not best suit the interests or capabilities of UK industry.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...-mail-editorial-asking-whowillspeakforengland



SocketRocket said:



			So you don't really know what they said, only what someone down the Pub said.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but 'good taste' bars me from showing the Scottish ones.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the world has changed and the pressures on Europe have changed.  And in the same way that some see it as our 'duty' to join with the US, France and the coalition countries in fighting Daesh/ISIS - I see it that we have a duty to work with all other European countries to manage the migration from the Middle east and elsewhere.  After all do these other European countries not also have 'benefits of life' that they and their forefathers have worked for?  Of course they do.  We are no different but many of us like to think that we are.
		
Click to expand...

We are working to help the displaced people in the middle east and in a far more sensible way than most European Countries.   We are helping in the region, not encouraging this uncontrolled migration across Europe.

You didn't answer my question when I asked you what you think we should do on immigration in the UK.   Open borders or something else?   I'm interested to hear your answer.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing - except being outside of the EU you would have no way of influencing these standards - you would just have to adhere to whatever the EU determined for these standards - and these might not best suit the interests or capabilities of UK industry.
		
Click to expand...

We already manufacture to some standards outside the EU. Try getting any product into the U.S. That isn't up to there standard. And try getting something into the EU that isn't to their standards.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			UBER?  The trains, tubes and buses into and around London are also pretty packed in the rush hour!  Many more people seem to be commuting by bicycle. *The UK has about the same population as France and Germany, but only about a quarter of the land mass, not all of which is habitable*. England's green and pleasant land is slowly being covered by urban sprawl, particularly in the South-East, often with little thought about the necessary infrastructure, e.g. Roads, water supplies and drainage, schools, hospitals and doctors surgeries!
		
Click to expand...

Really?:

UK has a pop of 62.26m, and a pop density of 256/sq km
France has a pop of 63.6m and a pop density of 111
Germany has a pop of 81.7m and a pop density of 233
Netherlands has a pop of 16.9m and a pop density of 383


2013 figures for the UK. Germany probably closer by now. UK has a shade over 2/3 of the land mass of Germany. Some of Germany is uninhabitable too.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

Loved today's headline and front page comment in the Daily Mail

_Who WILL speak for England_

Stuff rUK!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes it does, because immigrants are taking the jobs that our young people could do!
		
Click to expand...

Immigrants aren't going to be any better qualified - unless of course our young people you refer to couldn't be bothered to apply.  That's hardly the immigrant's fault


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Really?:

UK has a pop of 62.26m, and a pop density of 256/sq km
France has a pop of 63.6m and a pop density of 111
Germany has a pop of 81.7m and a pop density of 233
Netherlands has a pop of 16.9m and a pop density of 383


2013 figures for the UK. Germany probably closer by now. UK has a shade over 2/3 of the land mass of Germany. Some of Germany is uninhabitable too.
		
Click to expand...

UK 243,610 km2, population 65 mn.

England 130,395 km2, pop 53.5 mn.

Germany 357,031 km2, pop 81 mn

France 643,802 km3, pop 66 mn

It can be seen that England (where I live) has a much higher population density than Germany or France!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			UK 243,610 km2, population 65 mn.

England 130,395 km2, population 53.5 mn.

Germany 357,031 km2, pop 81 mn

France 643,802 km3, pop 66 mn

It can be seen that England (where I live) has a much higher population than Germany or France!
		
Click to expand...

Must go check the pop density of the Ruhr valley and Paris Urban Region


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Really?:

UK has a pop of 62.26m, and a pop density of 256/sq km
France has a pop of 63.6m and a pop density of 111
Germany has a pop of 81.7m and a pop density of 233
Netherlands has a pop of 16.9m and a pop density of 383


2013 figures for the UK. Germany probably closer by now. UK has a shade over 2/3 of the land mass of Germany. Some of Germany is uninhabitable too.
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct for the UK but when you look at England it's a different story.   England has a population density of 395 people per square kilometre and is now the highest populated major country in Europe, already almost double the level in Germany and quadruple that in France. It is estimated that English population density will rise to 464 people for every square kilometre by 2031.   Only little Malta has a higher population density but with only 400,000 people.

The UK numbers get masked by Scotland and Wales with their large unpopulated areas.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			UK 243,610 km2, population 65 mn.

England 130,395 km2, pop 53.5 mn.

Germany 357,031 km2, pop 81 mn

France 643,802 km3, pop 66 mn

It can be seen that England (where I live) has a much higher population than Germany or France!
		
Click to expand...

Check the message you posted which I quoted and remind me whether you said England or the UK.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

well Ruhr valley pop density is 2,800/km2  Quite busy in that part of Germany


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			well Ruhr valley pop density is 2,800/km2  Quite busy in that part of Germany
		
Click to expand...

Population density is a bad measure, but he used area and population, so I responded in kind. Monaco has a population density of 18700 per sq km, and one of the highest net worths per person in the world. 

If people live in flats or apartments, the pop density doesn't measure the pressure on accommodation very well.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Loved today's headline and front page comment in the Daily Mail

_Who WILL speak for England_

Stuff rUK!
		
Click to expand...

I just read that article and it's not suggesting that only England needs speaking up for.  It is referring to an incident 76 years ago where the Tory anti-appeaser Leo Amery issued his famous wartime invitation across the floor of the House of Commons over the shoulder of a hapless Neville Chamberlain.  It actually asks who will speak for the UK if you read it.


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			well Ruhr valley pop density is 2,800/km2  Quite busy in that part of Germany
		
Click to expand...

Greater London has a population of 8.6 million with a population density of 5,200 per km2.  And where do most of the economic migrants want to go?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			well Ruhr valley pop density is 2,800/km2  Quite busy in that part of Germany
		
Click to expand...

Well Greater London pop density is 5437/km2 Quite busy in that part of England.

Not quite sure what the point of your post was or what it was trying to prove but you can manipulate the figures to show you whatever you want them to show.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			Greater London has a population of 8.6 million with a population density of 5,200 per km2.
		
Click to expand...

Flats and apartments explain a lot of that. As I said, a bad measure. 

The UK, or England, if you prefer, has plenty of space. Most of the space isn't around London, though.


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Flats and apartments explain a lot of that. As I said, a bad measure. 

The UK, or England, if you prefer, has plenty of space. Most of the space isn't around London, though.
		
Click to expand...

Or anywhere else in the South-East, where towns like Bracknell, Basingstoke (aka Basingrad), Farnborough Woking and many more are just growing like Topsy. Many of our golf courses down here are being threatened by housing developments. In my home town, a number of former commercial properties and a hotel are being converted into flats and apartments, so more people living here, but no increases in roads and other infrastructure! Hence gridlocked roads every morning and evening!


----------



## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			Or anywhere else in the South-East, where towns like Bracknell, Basingstoke (aka Basingrad), Farnborough Woking and many more are just growing like Topsy. Many of our golf courses down here are being threatened by housing developments. In my home town, a number of former commercial properties and a hotel are being converted into flats and apartments, so more people living here, but no increases in roads and other infrastructure! Hence gridlocked roads every morning and evening!  

Click to expand...

I live in Wokingham, so I have the same experience. And they are redeveloping an old army camp half a mile down the road which will also use the narrow road into town I do. But there are plenty of places in England, Wales and Scotland where there is plenty of room. I


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2016)

Who will speak for England ?

Present standings in the North Brittish printable version are.

1] Alan Partridge
2] Roy Chubby Brown
3] Chas 'n Dave.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

What are the other arab nations doing to take in refugees?


----------



## jp5 (Feb 4, 2016)

drive4show said:



			What are the other arab nations doing to take in refugees?
		
Click to expand...

10% of Jordan's population is refugees
20% of Lebanon's population is refugees


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 4, 2016)

jp5 said:



			10% of Jordan's population is refugees
20% of Lebanon's population is refugees
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, sounds like they have done a bit to help. What about the wealthier states like Saudi and the UAE?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I live in Wokingham, so I have the same experience. And they are redeveloping an old army camp half a mile down the road which will also use the narrow road into town I do. *But there are plenty of places in England, Wales and Scotland where there is plenty of room*. I
		
Click to expand...

So it's Ok to overpopulate them as well?


----------



## JamPal (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's Ok to overpopulate them as well?
		
Click to expand...


Population is a big issue, mainly caused by pensioners living to be one hundred and twelvety three these days. Our aging population means the state is paying huge amounts in pensions and taking less and less money in income tax.

For the country's economy to grow, we need a young, fit and able work force. Amazingly, even the people on Jeremy Kyle don't excrete enough loin fruit to staff our nation. There's a good reason unemployment is so low, and it's the same reason we need migrants: The relentless pursuit of "growth". 

I agree that we are over populated. But what can we do? Become communists? Have a cull of old folk? Breed more? None of these seem good ideas really. 

I am, at heart a capitalist, but as population reaches critical mass, we are feeling some of the shortcomings of capitalism very keenly indeed. The roads are all but impassable. Schools are full. Care homes are chock full of urine-soaked old tossers ( a fate that is just round the corner for most of us, I'd bet).

For my part, I drink too much and eat fatty foods. I'll not be taking up too much room past my sell-by. It is our duty to die, so live life to the full and don't sit around repeating yourself  in a pool of your own excreta and TCP for too long. That's not living. The world is full, if you're not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Population is a big issue, mainly caused by pensioners living to be one hundred and twelvety three these days. Our aging population means the state is paying huge amounts in pensions and taking less and less money in income tax.

For the country's economy to grow, we need a young, fit and able work force. Amazingly, even the people on Jeremy Kyle don't excrete enough loin fruit to staff our nation. There's a good reason unemployment is so low, and it's the same reason we need migrants: The relentless pursuit of "growth". 

I agree that we are over populated. But what can we do? Become communists? Have a cull of old folk? Breed more? None of these seem good ideas really. 

I am, at heart a capitalist, but as population reaches critical mass, we are feeling some of the shortcomings of capitalism very keenly indeed. The roads are all but impassable. Schools are full. Care homes are chock full of urine-soaked old tossers ( a fate that is just round the corner for most of us, I'd bet).

For my part, I drink too much and eat fatty foods. I'll not be taking up too much room past my sell-by. It is our duty to die, so live life to the full and don't sit around repeating yourself  in a pool of your own excreta and TCP for too long. That's not living. The world is full, if you're not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.
		
Click to expand...

A point I've made many times, but without the clarity and humour I suppose.. :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Population is a big issue, mainly caused by pensioners living to be one hundred and twelvety three these days. Our aging population means the state is paying huge amounts in pensions and taking less and less money in income tax.

For the country's economy to grow, we need a young, fit and able work force. Amazingly, even the people on Jeremy Kyle don't excrete enough loin fruit to staff our nation. There's a good reason unemployment is so low, and it's the same reason we need migrants: The relentless pursuit of "growth". 

I agree that we are over populated. But what can we do? Become communists? Have a cull of old folk? Breed more? None of these seem good ideas really. 

I am, at heart a capitalist, but as population reaches critical mass, we are feeling some of the shortcomings of capitalism very keenly indeed. The roads are all but impassable. Schools are full. Care homes are chock full of urine-soaked old tossers ( a fate that is just round the corner for most of us, I'd bet).

For my part, I drink too much and eat fatty foods. I'll not be taking up too much room past my sell-by. It is our duty to die, so live life to the full and don't sit around repeating yourself  in a pool of your own excreta and TCP for too long. That's not living. The world is full, if you're not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.
		
Click to expand...

That theory wont work though.   If you increase the population with immigrants then they will also grow old and require even more immigrants to pay for their old age.  You would need to increase the population exponentially using that model. It's  not a solution at all.    I would suggest that more people will not reach old age if you look at the levels of obesity and binge drinking so it will all probably be OK anyway.   Also with increased life expectancy it has already been planned to increase the pensionable age so you whippersnappers will have to turn up at the grindstone for rather longer to pay for your state pensions.

Also:   There are more people working now than any other time in our history.  Why should they be taking less and less in income tax?


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That theory wont work though.   If you increase the population with immigrants then they will also grow old and require even more immigrants to pay for their old age.  You would need to increase the population exponentially using that model. It's  not a solution at all.    I would suggest that more people will not reach old age if you look at the levels of obesity and binge drinking so it will all probably be OK anyway.   Also with increased life expectancy it has already been planned to increase the pensionable age so you whippersnappers will have to turn up at the grindstone for rather longer to pay for your state pensions.
		
Click to expand...

None of which solves the issues that we are currently facing.. Unbridled capitalism requires constant growth.. This is great when you have a small population. However, when the population reaches "critical mass", then Capitalism requires a "correction".. What form this correction will take is presently unknown, but I strongly suspect that it won't be pleasant..


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Population is a big issue, mainly caused by pensioners living to be one hundred and twelvety three these days. Our aging population means the state is paying huge amounts in pensions and taking less and less money in income tax.

For the country's economy to grow, we need a young, fit and able work force. Amazingly, even the people on Jeremy Kyle don't excrete enough loin fruit to staff our nation. There's a good reason unemployment is so low, and it's the same reason we need migrants: The relentless pursuit of "growth". 

I agree that we are over populated. But what can we do? Become communists? Have a cull of old folk? Breed more? None of these seem good ideas really. 

I am, at heart a capitalist, but as population reaches critical mass, we are feeling some of the shortcomings of capitalism very keenly indeed. The roads are all but impassable. Schools are full. Care homes are chock full of urine-soaked old tossers ( a fate that is just round the corner for most of us, I'd bet).

For my part, I drink too much and eat fatty foods. I'll not be taking up too much room past my sell-by. It is our duty to die, so live life to the full and don't sit around repeating yourself  in a pool of your own excreta and TCP for too long. That's not living. The world is full, if you're not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.
		
Click to expand...

As a fairly fit and active pensioner, I don't feel quite ready to fall on my sword just yet!  Gordon Brown's harebrained solution to the problem was to pay poorer people benefits to have children, in the hope than the Labour voting underclass would expand and keep them in power for ever. Fortunately this cunning plan didn't work! The migrants who came in at the time took up this offer with gusto, as did the vile Mick Philpott who had about 20 kids by several different women and used the child benefits to fund his workshy life style! No wonder the schools are full to bursting point, and the school run is causing major traffic problems! Whilst one has to feel sorry for the Syrian and other refugees, the problem is that if you allow them to settle and get a good life here, they are not going to back to their own countries, if and when things get sorted out there.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			None of which solves the issues that we are currently facing.. Unbridled capitalism requires constant growth.. This is great when you have a small population. However, when the population reaches "critical mass", then Capitalism requires a "correction".. What form this correction will take is presently unknown, but I strongly suspect that it won't be pleasant.. 

Click to expand...

Opening the floodgates to unchecked immigration (which seems quite appealing to a number of posters here) would bring that 'critical mass'  about sooner rather than later.   I am not convinced we have unbridled Capitalism here, seems far from it when you consider our generous welfare system.

The 'correction' you speak of will come about but not from a political system but from Natural and Human Nature.  Competition for scarce resources will probably be the deciding factor on when and how that 'correction' takes place.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			None of which solves the issues that we are currently facing.. Unbridled capitalism requires constant growth.. This is great when you have a small population. However, when the population reaches "critical mass", then Capitalism requires a "correction".. *What form this correction will take is presently unknown, but I strongly suspect that it won't be pleasant.*. 

Click to expand...

Will it be culling the elderly??  If so then I think there could be other wins as well.  The roads would not be so crowded as they would not be full of old people waiting for someone else to move at mini roundabouts for 10 minutes or slowing down to 10 mph to get round a barely detectable bend in the road. Plus a lot of golf clubs would no longer have the silly dress codes favoured by the elderly generation meaning the game would open itself up to a new generation.  It's win win I think.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Opening the floodgates to unchecked immigration (which seems quite appealing to a number of posters here) would bring that 'critical mass'  about sooner rather than later.   I am not convinced we have unbridled Capitalism here, seems far from it when you consider our generous welfare system.

The 'correction' you speak of will come about but not from a political system but from Natural and Human Nature.  Competition for scarce resources will probably be the deciding factor on when and how that 'correction' takes place.
		
Click to expand...

In all honesty, there is no real solution.. Only short term solutions that maintain the status quo whilst merely pushing the issue slightly further into the near future..
 Also, when I refer to a "population critical mass", it is mostly referring to a global issue, not a local one.. When there is nowhere to grow food, then the population will collapse.. 
Also, we do have unbridled Capitalism, as evidenced by the fact that we are wholly subservient to Banks/Big business (as evidenced by the banking bale out). We just haven't yet had the "stones" to introduce a Friedman style economy as the population wouldn't yet support it. We would rather run at a huge deficit and push the issue further down the road..


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Will it be culling the elderly??  If so then I think there could be other wins as well.  The roads would not be so crowded as they would not be full of old people waiting for someone else to move at mini roundabouts for 10 minutes or slowing down to 10 mph to get round a barely detectable bend in the road. Plus a lot of golf clubs would no longer have the silly dress codes favoured by the elderly generation meaning the game would open itself up to a new generation.  It's win win I think. 

Click to expand...

Imagine what a Spanish Flu style epidemic would do to Golf Clubs worldwide!!! Ping would go bankrupt in a week.. Snooker tables would lie idle.. Halfway huts would no longer stock pasties!! Chaos..


----------



## delc (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Will it be culling the elderly??  If so then I think there could be other wins as well.  The roads would not be so crowded as they would not be full of old people waiting for someone else to move at mini roundabouts for 10 minutes or slowing down to 10 mph to get round a barely detectable bend in the road. Plus a lot of golf clubs would no longer have the silly dress codes favoured by the elderly generation meaning the game would open itself up to a new generation.  It's win win I think. 

Click to expand...

If you are lucky, you will get old some day, and may not then think that this is such a good idea!


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2016)

delc said:



			If you are lucky, you will get old some day, and may not then think that this is such a good idea!  

Click to expand...

Do you think he'll keep his sense of humour? Or will it be taken away in a Logan's Run style experiment?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Will it be culling the elderly??  If so then I think there could be other wins as well.  The roads would not be so crowded as they would not be full of old people waiting for someone else to move at mini roundabouts for 10 minutes or slowing down to 10 mph to get round a barely detectable bend in the road. Plus a lot of golf clubs would no longer have the silly dress codes favoured by the elderly generation meaning the game would open itself up to a new generation.  It's win win I think. 

Click to expand...

Lets start with your loved ones!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I just read that article and it's not suggesting that only England needs speaking up for.  It is referring to an incident 76 years ago where the Tory anti-appeaser Leo Amery issued his famous wartime invitation across the floor of the House of Commons over the shoulder of a hapless Neville Chamberlain.  *It actually asks who will speak for the UK* if you read it.
		
Click to expand...

What's the headline about then?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's the headline about then?
		
Click to expand...

I explained it's referring to an incident 76 years ago where the Tory anti-appeaser Leo Amery issued his famous wartime invitation across the floor of the House of Commons over the shoulder of a hapless Neville Chamberlain.  The reason they used it was to make the point that the Euro Sceptics in the Cabinet are being gaged while the others are free to give their pro EU views.    It's not a direct suggestion that England needs a voice rather than the whole of the UK.


----------



## delc (Feb 5, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Imagine what a Spanish Flu style epidemic would do to Golf Clubs worldwide!!! Ping would go bankrupt in a week.. Snooker tables would lie idle.. Halfway huts would no longer stock pasties!! Chaos..
		
Click to expand...

Spanish Flu actually disproportionately killed fit healthy young adults, rather than the young and the elderly. So not a threat to Ping, snooker tables, or halfway huts!  :mmm:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 5, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Do you think he'll keep his sense of humour? Or will it be taken away in a Logan's Run style experiment?
		
Click to expand...

The rush to be professionally offended means there's no place for humour on the modem Internet forum young man....


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The rush to be professionally offended means there's no place for humour on the modem Internet forum young man....
		
Click to expand...

Seems to have offended you


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Population is a big issue, mainly caused by pensioners living to be one hundred and twelvety three these days. Our aging population means the state is paying huge amounts in pensions and taking less and less money in income tax.

For the country's economy to grow, we need a young, fit and able work force. Amazingly, even the people on Jeremy Kyle don't excrete enough loin fruit to staff our nation. There's a good reason unemployment is so low, and it's the same reason we need migrants: The relentless pursuit of "growth". 

I agree that we are over populated. But what can we do? Become communists? Have a cull of old folk? Breed more? None of these seem good ideas really. 

I am, at heart a capitalist, but as population reaches critical mass, we are feeling some of the shortcomings of capitalism very keenly indeed. The roads are all but impassable. Schools are full. Care homes are chock full of urine-soaked old tossers ( a fate that is just round the corner for most of us, I'd bet).

For my part, I drink too much and eat fatty foods. I'll not be taking up too much room past my sell-by. It is our duty to die, so live life to the full and don't sit around repeating yourself  in a pool of your own excreta and TCP for too long. That's not living. The world is full, if you're not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.
		
Click to expand...

And this demographic imbalance is precisely the reason Germany wanted to take so many migrants, mostly young. The German fertility rate is very low and the population needs to rebalance soon or the economy will become unsustainable. The only options are more children, fewer old people or a retirement age over 70. Or possibly all of those. There has not been a correction in the inexorable rise in life expectancy since Spanish flu, and there is little sign of any happening soon. Rising rates of diabetes and dementia are only adding to morbidity and health care costs, not taking people off at the top end.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2016)

On the other hand obesity will level out the elderly problem.
As I walk down any high street I see many folk who will not live into their 60's
Seems to be a worldwide solution now.


----------



## delc (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And this demographic imbalance is precisely the reason Germany wanted to take so many migrants, mostly young. The German fertility rate is very low and the population needs to rebalance soon or the economy will become unsustainable. The only options are more children, fewer old people or a retirement age over 70. Or possibly all of those. There has not been a correction in the inexorable rise in life expectancy since Spanish flu, and there is little sign of any happening soon. Rising rates of diabetes and dementia are only adding to morbidity and health care costs, not taking people off at the top end.
		
Click to expand...

Young, intelligent, well educated, and aspirational people can no longer afford to have children, because they are having to pay off student debts and huge mortgages. Yet under Gordon Brown, the benefit claiming, Labour voting, underclass were positively encouraged to have children to get even more benefits (e.g. Mick Philpott of Jeremy Kyle fame). Survival of the thickest?!!!  :mmm:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And this demographic imbalance is precisely the reason Germany wanted to take so many migrants, mostly young. The German fertility rate is very low and the population needs to rebalance soon or the economy will become unsustainable. The only options are more children, fewer old people or a retirement age over 70. Or possibly all of those. There has not been a correction in the inexorable rise in life expectancy since Spanish flu, and there is little sign of any happening soon. Rising rates of diabetes and dementia are only adding to morbidity and health care costs, not taking people off at the top end.
		
Click to expand...

And when they grow old what will be the answer?    More Migrants , then more and more to pay for them!   Seems a pretty poor solution to me.

A better way would be a longer working life and later pensionable age as life expectancy increases; coupled with people paying more towards retirement.   Maybe we should also spent less on working/child  benefits and more on retirement.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And when they grow old what will be the answer?    More Migrants , then more and more to pay for them!   Seems a pretty poor solution to me.

A better way would be a longer working life and later pensionable age as life expectancy increases; coupled with people paying more towards retirement.   Maybe we should also spent less on working/child  benefits and more on retirement.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't an either or. The idea of letting the population age and just push up retirement age is at best a short term solution and will soon fail. Elderly people will become unable to work effectively even if willing. The population needs young people in at the bottom end to balance the old people at the top end. There is no alternative apart from forced euthanasia or a pandemic selectively affecting older people.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It isn't an either or. The idea of letting the population age and just push up retirement age is at best a short term solution and will soon fail. Elderly people will become unable to work effectively even if willing. The population needs young people in at the bottom end to balance the old people at the top end. There is no alternative apart from forced euthanasia or a pandemic selectively affecting older people.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, how ironic that the problem wasn't the immigrants after all but it turned out to be the elderly!

It must be tough for the elderly though with papers like The Daily Mail and Express printing endless headlines blaming the elderly for all the ills of society, in a desperate attempt to appeal to the young voters who yearn after a mythical age when the UK was full of young vibrant people.  And even worse is the fact that some of the more gullible young Daily Mail readers just lap it up and take any old crap that The Daily Mail and Express prints as gospel.  

You have to feel for the elderly really, getting picked on by the press as they are such an easy target as the young need someone to blame for the fact the world has changed and they just have not kept up.  Hey youngsters, we now live in a wrinkly world, the past was yours but the future's grey, just accept it and move on will you!!


----------



## delc (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It isn't an either or. The idea of letting the population age and just push up retirement age is at best a short term solution and will soon fail. Elderly people will become unable to work effectively even if willing. The population needs young people in at the bottom end to balance the old people at the top end. There is no alternative apart from forced euthanasia or a pandemic selectively affecting older people.
		
Click to expand...

Are sure that this is an issue?  We seem to have had a bit of a baby boom over the last 15 years or so. And judging by the number of pop stars and other celebs that are dying in their 60's and early 70's, are people really living longer? My wife died at the age of 59 and one of my best golfing mates at the age of 60 (both from cancer, which seems to be on the increase), so not everybody lives for ever!


----------



## JamPal (Feb 5, 2016)

delc said:



			Are sure that this is an issue?  We seem to have had a bit of a baby boom over the last 15 years or so. And judging by the number of pop stars and other celebs that are dying in their 60's and early 70's are people really living longer? My wife died at the age of 59 and one of my best golfing mates at the age of 60 (both from cancer, which seems to be on the increase), so not everybody lives for ever! 

Click to expand...

Firstly, I'm sorry to hear of your losses. Cancer is merciless and cruel. 

However I've not seen any evidence that cancer is not on the increase. The population is. Therefore instances are up, but I don't believe that equates to an increase in frequency. It's still at about 1 in 3. 

There has been a small recent baby boom, you are right. This gives the full picture:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-e...hern-ireland/2013/sty-population-changes.html


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

delc said:



			Are sure that this is an issue?  We seem to have had a bit of a baby boom over the last 15 years or so. And judging by the number of pop stars and other celebs that are dying in their 60's and early 70's, are people really living longer? My wife died at the age of 59 and one of my best golfing mates at the age of 60 (both from cancer, which seems to be on the increase), so not everybody lives for ever! 

Click to expand...

We have had a small reversal of the demographic imbalance in recent years, ironically driven by immigrants. 

As to the epidemiology of cancer, you need to be careful what you read. There are two different measures of incidence. One is absolute numbers of cases. This is rising for cancer, because everyone dies of something, and heart disease and stroke rates are falling, so people will inevitably die from what is left, cancer and dementia.

Doctors looks at cancer rates in a different way, using age specific incidence rates. Cancer is known to be (generally) correlated with age. It is basically the breakdown of your body's cellular regeneration and repair mechanisms and that will happen to us all sooner or later, if something else doesn't get us first. So, if you look at the numbers of cases in people in a 5 or 10 year age range, these rates are falling. This is because more people are getting cancer, but they are getting it later in life. The fall is probably due to a number of factors. Falling smoking rates is a big one, better diet, more exercise and less sun exposure also contribute. Cancer screening and treatment is probably only a small effect.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Blimey, how ironic that the problem wasn't the immigrants after all but it turned out to be the elderly!

It must be tough for the elderly though with papers like The Daily Mail and Express printing endless headlines blaming the elderly for all the ills of society, in a desperate attempt to appeal to the young voters who yearn after a mythical age when the UK was full of young vibrant people.  And even worse is the fact that some of the more gullible young Daily Mail readers just lap it up and take any old crap that The Daily Mail and Express prints as gospel. 


You have to feel for the elderly really, getting picked on by the press as they are such an easy target as the young need someone to blame for the fact the world has changed and they just have not kept up.  Hey youngsters, we now live in a wrinkly world, the past was yours but the future's grey, just accept it and move on will you!!
		
Click to expand...

That's quite a clever post.  The way you mask your prejudices with satire leaves anyone disagreeing open to an accusation of having a sense of humour short circuit.

It would be interesting to read your view in a less pythoness manner.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's quite a clever post.  The way you mask your prejudices with satire leaves anyone disagreeing open to an accusation of having a sense of humour short circuit.

It would be interesting to read your view in a less pythoness manner.
		
Click to expand...

I'll take Pythoness.  And I don't have any serious views as it's only a bunch of golfers yakking on the internet and life's too short to take that seriously. Including, in fact especially everything that I post.  As once you lose the humour and the ability to sneak in a Stone Roses lyric you lose the very essence of life itself.  But don't take that seriously either.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Anyhow! back to the OP.

I see 'Call me Dave'  has now said that he will not allow the Cabinet to use  'Pro EU' speeches either before the 'stich up' us finalised.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyhow! back to the OP.

I see 'Call me Dave'  has now said that he will not allow the Cabinet to use  'Pro EU' speeches either before the 'stich up' us finalised.
		
Click to expand...

Goodness that's a surprise. [in Haker Khan style]


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 5, 2016)

JamPal said:



My company export, mainly into Europe, which is as easy as selling at home. And a little into Turkey, which is painful, India, which is also painful and the US which is like pulling teeth. 

Our engineers drive round Europe installing our boxes, they work *and travel freely and only need their passports to get in and out of Blighty.* 

The advantages of the EU are blindingly obvious for me. For a postman, Doctor, or someone in manufacturing that for some reason doesn't export they might only see the cost of membership. The cost is massively outweighed by the benefit. In fact, to the economy as a whole there is no cost. 


It's a long way from perfect, but I would rather we had a say in how our nearest and most important markets are run. Not being at the table seems churlish. I can't help feeling that the no camp could do with spending some time in business, trying to improve the countries' trade deficit, then have another think.

And for those espousing the Norwegian model, they might want to check their figures. It costs them more money and they have no say. A bit like Nigel Farage.

Click to expand...

Pray tell how they manage that? I have to show mine to get into Europe so why don't your engineers? Unless you're lying....then how can we trust the rest of your arguement, which you haven't backed up with any figures.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 5, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Pray tell how they manage that? I have to show mine to get into Europe so why don't your engineers? Unless you're lying....then how can we trust the rest of your arguement, which you haven't backed up with any figures.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect they'll take advantage of the Schengen Agreement, of which the UK is not a member state.


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 5, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect they'll take advantage of the Schengen Agreement, of which the UK is not a member state.
		
Click to expand...

And that's all gone to poo


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 5, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			And that's all gone to poo
		
Click to expand...

It's highly likely that the agreement will be amended, but that's not what you asked.


----------



## Junior (Feb 5, 2016)

20 years ago when i started working for a major industrial engine manufacturer, virtually all of our components were manufactured in the UK.  The few suppliers that are left, are mostly warehousing and small amounts of manufacturing.   Lots of the production was moved to India, then China, but probably the same amount was moved into Eastern Europe.  

Unfortunately, I think we have made our bed.......our economy needs Europe, but we also need a government who can take us back to where we were industrially 20 years ago.   How can we make this happen ? Well, unfortunately, that will take a mind far for advanced than mine.....but something along the lines of EU subsidies and incentives for UK manufacturing would be a start.  We put enough in the pot, its about time we take some out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Junior said:



20 years ago when i started working for a major industrial engine manufacturer, virtually all of our components were manufactured in the UK.  The few suppliers that are left, are mostly warehousing and small amounts of manufacturing.   Lots of the production was moved to India, then China, but probably the same amount was moved into Eastern Europe.  

Unfortunately, I think we have made our bed.......our economy needs Europe, but we also need a government who can take us back to where we were industrially 20 years ago.   How can we make this happen ? Well, unfortunately, that will take a mind far for advanced than mine.....but something along the lines of EU subsidies and incentives for UK manufacturing would be a start.  We put enough in the pot, its about time we take some out. 

Click to expand...

That just wont happen!  In the enlarged EU priority will be given to the basket case economies for further investment, the UK is seen as a 'Cash Cow' to finance this.   As the boundary's grow wider and take in more poor economies the commission will be looking for more ways to squeeze the few successful countries until the pips squeak.

I hope we have the guts to get out and rise or fall on our own merits.


----------



## daverollo (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven't seen even the basic outline of any plan to establish a UK that has left the EU in European and global trading and economic bodies (that LEAVE tell us we'll be able to join); nor any costs and criteria to be met associated with joining and being members of such bodies; nor the costs or timescales of untangling the UK from EU legislation.  Nothing.
		
Click to expand...

â€“ If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

â€“ The EU sells a lot more to us than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over Â£50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly Â£100 billion. It seems unlikely that the EU would seek to disrupt a trade which is so beneficial to itself.

â€“ Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

â€“ World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which we'd use going forward.

-The EU has free trade agreements with over 50 countries to overcome high cross border tariffs, and is currently negotiating a number of other agreements. No reason given the above info that a similar agreement could not be reached with the UK



Ethan said:



			It isn't what we signed up for?. That is a pretty weak argument, isn't it? How many people who voted for or against the EU understand the complexity of international agreements, trade or laws? Even in this debate, most of those opposing the EU seem to think it is only about trade and all these laws made in Brussels. *They don't seem to even know that the EU is responsible for a huge range of things including the approval and safety of medicines, air traffic control, anti-discrimination, consumer rights, regulating internet security not to mention keeping peace in a Europe which had 2 huge wars in the preceding half century*

Click to expand...

So the UK doesn't have NICE or the CAA or our own laws to protect against discrimination (Equality Act 2010 for example) and are incapable of dealing with those areas? Nonsense.

It must also have escaped you, but a united Europe is not what has kept the peace since WW2, it is the formation of NATO in 1949 that has lead to that.

I like Europeans, I like going on holiday to Europe, I have many clients, friends and even relatives that are European, but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be.

Without doubt we are net contributors to the EU well in excess of Â£10bn per year.

People talk about the 'hidden' benefit of being 'in' Europe and try and quantify a figure as to what that is worth, however, flip that on it's head, WHAT is the cost to UK business and citizens for over burdensome regulation and rules??  I'll provide 1 example soon to hit the UK:

21 March 2016 the European Credit Directive comes into force.  This is a long winded process to try and unify a common format for applying for mortgages across Europe.  The theory being if you arrange a mortgage in Germany, then you will receive the same paperwork as if you have arranged that mortgage in the UK.  Common rules across all Europe.

Why is that needed??  It's not, just an example of EU getting mission creap.

Cost:  Rough estimates are that for lenders to be changing their systems to accommodate these changes it will cost them in the region of Â£50m, guess who will be picking that tab up - you the consumer.

Unintended consequences:  Instead of making it easier for people to obtain a mortgage, due to the subtle rule changes coming in, it will severely hamper anyone applying for a mortgage in the UK who does not earn their wages in Â£ Sterling.

So if you are paid in US Dollars, or Danish Krona, or even the Euro, you will have a choice of around 4 lenders in the UK to be able to try and get a mortgage from.  Before this regulation change there was in excess of 20.

So, How exactly is this change to EU law benefiting the average citizen of the UK, or even any other citizen in Europe????  It's not is the answer,so why the feck have they introduced it?? All part of their 'Ever Closer Union' mantra.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 5, 2016)

^^^

I'm voting for you Dave!!   :thup:


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

daverollo said:



			So the UK doesn't have NICE or the CAA or our own laws to protect against discrimination (Equality Act 2010 for example) and are incapable of dealing with those areas? Nonsense.

It must also have escaped you, but a united Europe is not what has kept the peace since WW2, it is the formation of NATO in 1949 that has lead to that.



.
		
Click to expand...

Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse. 

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace. 

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.
		
Click to expand...


Oh I don't know about that, I seem to recall quite a few flying around a couple of years ago.....


----------



## daverollo (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse. 

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace. 

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.
		
Click to expand...

It is you who misses my point Ethan. As far as regulation of anything within the UK goes, we wouldn't fall flat on our arses because we leave Europe. Suggesting European Regulation, whether that is of the air traffic control (which requires world wide international co-operation) or drugs, or human rights is needed because we are incapable of dealing with these area's ourselves is somewhat condescending.

The 'inners' using the fact we have had peace in Europe since WW2, despite what happened in the Balkens, was as a result of their being an EU is a spurious claim.  How can you prove it's a result of their being an EU, equally as my suggestion it was as a result of their being NATO.  No proof that either can lay more claim than the other that their actions have lead to peace.

No idea what you mean by Gish Gallop and conspiracy theories, I was attempting to have a civilised discussion about the consequences of leaving the EU and what is happening in the real world right now.  What is happening with mortgages is real and happening right now.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse. 

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace. 

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.
		
Click to expand...





...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...
		
Click to expand...

Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats -  we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats -  *we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government* - jings, crivens, help ma boab!
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that's part of the attraction to many.  Soon change their tune if comrade Corbyn got in though I'd suspect.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats -  we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!
		
Click to expand...


The way I look at it is... That we are already paying heavily for poor governance why do we need to be adding to our pain [at huge expense] allowing the EU to poke its nose in...


----------



## delc (Feb 5, 2016)

I shall be voting to stay in the EU. This is because it seems to care more about our rights as citizens than the Tory government does, and also to keep my rights to travel around Europe, or even to work or settle in another EU country, should things get really bad here.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats -  we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!
		
Click to expand...

The current Government were voted in last year to do those things so no point in complaining they are doing them.   I expect you think its their fault that labour are such a shambles!

Since when have the Conservatives been cramming the HOL with their people?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The current Government were voted in last year to do those things so no point in complaining they are doing them.   I expect you think its their fault that labour are so poor!
		
Click to expand...

You really believe that the the electorate voted the Tories in so they could fix the electoral system in their own favour.

And whilst Labour may be poor the Tories seem intent on grinding the LP into the ground and starve them of the funding that any major party needs to recover and become an effective opposition - and interesting that some Tory MPs and peers are thinking that the government is going to far and what they are doing is not at all healthy for our democracy.

_David Davis, the former shadow Home Secretary, told The Independent the double hit on Labour was â€œmean-spirited.â€  He added: â€œWhichever party is in government tries to use its power to do down the Opposition. It is borderline immoral.  The only way we should do this is by cross-party agreement. This shows that the Tory party does not understand the origins of the Labour Party as the political arm of the trade union movement.â€_

I do not believe for one moment that the country voted Tory so that we could have a one-party state - and were we to leave EU with the Tories potentially to be in power for the next 20-30yrs - beholden to big business for their own funding - well what relaxing of current EU-based legislation in areas such as employment and environment might that big business seek.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...
		
Click to expand...

Voted for, perhaps. Accountable to, you must be kidding.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 5, 2016)

daverollo said:



			It is you who misses my point Ethan. As far as regulation of anything within the UK goes, we wouldn't fall flat on our arses because we leave Europe. Suggesting European Regulation, whether that is of the air traffic control (which requires world wide international co-operation) or drugs, or human rights is needed because we are incapable of dealing with these area's ourselves is somewhat condescending.

The 'inners' using the fact we have had peace in Europe since WW2, despite what happened in the Balkens, was as a result of their being an EU is a spurious claim.  How can you prove it's a result of their being an EU, equally as my suggestion it was as a result of their being NATO.  No proof that either can lay more claim than the other that their actions have lead to peace.

No idea what you mean by Gish Gallop and conspiracy theories, I was attempting to have a civilised discussion about the consequences of leaving the EU and what is happening in the real world right now.  What is happening with mortgages is real and happening right now.
		
Click to expand...

I think that was the 'Never mind the facts, I know what I think' strategy. 

No real point in trying to break down your arguments.


----------



## daverollo (Feb 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			No real point in trying to break down your arguments.
		
Click to expand...

Then add to the points you made in #99 http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?82642-EU-Referendum&p=1450308&viewfull=1#post1450308

and highlight the real benefits to the UK of remaining within the EU as it is now, preferably demonstrating where the country would be at a real disadvantage by leaving because we'd lose out on something that could not be replaced.

You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 5, 2016)

daverollo said:



			You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.
		
Click to expand...

Reasoned argument/discussion? You must be new around here. Welcome to the forum. You might find that those things are in short supply around here.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2016)

daverollo said:



			â€“ If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.
â€“ Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

â€“ World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which we'd use going forward.

21 March 2016 the European Credit Directive comes into force.  This is a long winded process to try and unify a common format for applying for mortgages across Europe.  The theory being if you arrange a mortgage in Germany, then you will receive the same paperwork as if you have arranged that mortgage in the UK.  Common rules across all Europe.

Why is that needed??  It's not, just an example of EU getting mission creap.

Cost:  Rough estimates are that for lenders to be changing their systems to accommodate these changes it will cost them in the region of Â£50m, guess who will be picking that tab up - you the consumer.

Unintended consequences:  Instead of making it easier for people to obtain a mortgage, due to the subtle rule changes coming in, it will severely hamper anyone applying for a mortgage in the UK who does not earn their wages in Â£ Sterling.

So if you are paid in US Dollars, or Danish Krona, or even the Euro, you will have a choice of around 4 lenders in the UK to be able to try and get a mortgage from.  Before this regulation change there was in excess of 20.

So, How exactly is this change to EU law benefiting the average citizen of the UK, or even any other citizen in Europe????  It's not is the answer,so why the feck have they introduced it?? All part of their 'Ever Closer Union' mantra.
		
Click to expand...

While much of this seems well reasoned, there appears to be some glaring holes...

The Lisbon Treaty - which was the first time the leaving process was really formalised - does not seem to *require* a trade agreement! Article 50 only defines the process. Can you point out where the *requirement* to set up a *(free) *trade agreement is documented? It also establishes that if no agreement in a nation's exit is settled within 2 years, then they simply no longer belong - thus imposing a sensible time frame on member states imo.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

Can you indicate the proportion of mortgages that fall into the jurisdiction in your example? My thoughts are that it's absolutely tiny. I' still like to see the justification for a 'Common Mortgage' process though!

It's the reduction of bureaucracy (and accountability!) that seems the biggest issue for me, though mission-creep is a concern too. The right wing press do a pretty good job of at least highlighting (scaremongering might be a better description!) most examples. 

As for your comments about trade, certainly trade will continue if UK withdraws, but it's the *free* trade (by default) that will disappear. And UK would have to establish its own bureaucracy to monitor/manage that trade. The lack of the need to do so could well be worth UK's net contribution alone! UK would have to negotiate deals with all the counties currently covered by EC ones and/or join other FTA orgs


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2016)

daverollo said:



			Then add to the points you made in #99 http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?82642-EU-Referendum&p=1450308&viewfull=1#post1450308

and highlight the real benefits to the UK of remaining within the EU as it is now, preferably demonstrating where the country would be at a real disadvantage by leaving because we'd lose out on something that could not be replaced.

You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.
		
Click to expand...

You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
Scotland and NI are strongly in the 'In' camp, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
Scotland and NI are strongly in the 'In' camp, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.
		
Click to expand...

How can you possibly believe what any of the polls are saying when they got it so massively wrong during the GE last year?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
*Scotland* and NI are* strongly in the 'In' camp*, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Not if you believe Paul Nuttall on QT last night - who was clear in stating that the SNP want to leave the EU.  Then again you might not believe all that Paul Nuttall says.


----------



## ger147 (Feb 5, 2016)

On the Mortgages European Credit Directive point, the number of foreign currency mortgages may well be very small, but the changes that are required apply to ALL mortgage applications in the UK including those by UK residents for UK property and paid in Sterling.

So the impact is across the entire Mortgage market, not just the Foreign Currency ones.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2016)

It's all unknown in regards leaving the UK 

What exactly will happen it appears is guess work 

I was listening to the 5 live when the boss of UK Ford was on and he said that it worried them the thought of the U.K. Leaving the EU. He felt that it would have an affect on them but not sure if it would be positive or negative 

For me it seems a risk - a big risk maybe ? Is there a possibility that leaving the UK could do more damage than good - if there is a yes that appears to me to be a reason not to leave. Do things need to change in regards the amount of money we put in against what we gain - yes definitely, does there need to be changes to the immigration laws and benefits - yes again but I feel removing ourselves from the UK is a risk that isn't worth taking - in the same way that Scotland believed that removing themselves from UK wasn't a risk worth taking.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			How can you possibly believe what any of the polls are saying when they got it so massively wrong during the GE last year?
		
Click to expand...

That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not if you believe Paul Nuttall on QT last night - who was clear in stating that the SNP want to leave the EU.  Then again you might not believe all that Paul Nuttall says.
		
Click to expand...

Did he actually say that?   All I can remember him saying about the SNP was in reply to a point made to him that if he is against being in the EU why is he a MEP.   He replied saying "Why are the SNP in Parliament then"


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really believe that the the electorate voted the Tories in so they could fix the electoral system in their own favour.

And whilst Labour may be poor the Tories seem intent on grinding the LP into the ground and starve them of the funding that any major party needs to recover and become an effective opposition - and interesting that some Tory MPs and peers are thinking that the government is going to far and what they are doing is not at all healthy for our democracy.

_David Davis, the former shadow Home Secretary, told The Independent the double hit on Labour was â€œmean-spirited.â€  He added: â€œWhichever party is in government tries to use its power to do down the Opposition. It is borderline immoral.  The only way we should do this is by cross-party agreement. This shows that the Tory party does not understand the origins of the Labour Party as the political arm of the trade union movement.â€_

I do not believe for one moment that the country voted Tory so that we could have a one-party state - and were we to leave EU with the Tories potentially to be in power for the next 20-30yrs - beholden to big business for their own funding - well what relaxing of current EU-based legislation in areas such as employment and environment might that big business seek.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, they made a commitment to change the electoral boundaries to make them less favourable to Labour.  The Conservatives are currently disadvantaged by electoral boundaries.

Labour should not get levies from Union members that have not 'opted in'.  Period.

It's a job for the other parties to stop the Conservatives from staying in power for 30 years.   Currently Labour are doing a very good job to guarantee they do.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

And in the Scottish Referendum.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			And in the Scottish Referendum.
		
Click to expand...

They were too frightened to say they were voting no to independence for fear of being beaten up by people with blue faces


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's all unknown in regards leaving the UK 

What exactly will happen it appears is guess work 

*I was listening to the 5 live when the boss of UK Ford was on and he said that it worried them the thought of the U.K. Leaving the EU. He felt that it would have an affect on them but not sure if it would be positive or negative 
*
For me it seems a risk - a big risk maybe ? Is there a possibility that leaving the UK could do more damage than good - if there is a yes that appears to me to be a reason not to leave. Do things need to change in regards the amount of money we put in against what we gain - yes definitely, does there need to be changes to the immigration laws and benefits - yes again but I feel removing ourselves from the UK is a risk that isn't worth taking - in the same way that Scotland believed that removing themselves from UK wasn't a risk worth taking.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that if course it is guess work and you can probably get someone to say what you want them to say on both sides as that's the way society is nowadays. But were you listening to the same interview I heard? He said that easy access to the European market (or words to that effect, can't remember the exact words) were very important to Ford.  So I assumed that as I guess there is some corporate dictat in Ford to not state on opinion directly, he was spelling out Ford's opinion in another way that made it clear, without actually saying it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree that if course it is guess work and you can probably get someone to say what you want them to say on both sides as that's the way society is nowadays. But were you listening to the same interview I heard? He said that easy access to the European market (or words to that effect, can't remember the exact words) were very important to Ford.  So I assumed that as I guess there is some corporate dictat in Ford to not state on opinion directly, he was spelling out Ford's opinion in another way that made it clear, without actually saying it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that was the very same interview


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2016)

To the best of my knowledge business 'leaders' have the same amount of voting 'power' as everyone else...

Also. like everyone else they have an opinion and that's it... An opinion... Nothing more nothing less...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And in the Scottish Referendum.
		
Click to expand...

If you put your thunking cap on you will remember that the Scottish referendum polls were virtually spot on, only one poll predicted a Yes win and only for a few days.
Most predicted a rise in yes votes [33% to 45%] and most predicted a close result.[5% swing difference]


----------



## delc (Feb 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree that if course it is guess work and you can probably get someone to say what you want them to say on both sides as that's the way society is nowadays. But were you listening to the same interview I heard? He said that easy access to the European market (or words to that effect, can't remember the exact words) were very important to Ford.  So I assumed that as I guess there is some corporate dictat in Ford to not state on opinion directly, he was spelling out Ford's opinion in another way that made it clear, without actually saying it.
		
Click to expand...

We have factories in the UK making Toyota, Nissan and Honda vehicles in addition to Ford, all of whom may pull out of the country if we leave the EU.  We also make wings, engines and other parts for Airbuses. The Tory Party has unfortunately become the home for Little Englanders who yearn for the time when we still had an Empire to profit from. Well now we haven't, so being part of a trading bloc makes sense to me. We are a nett contributor to the EU, despite not being the richest country in it, so that needs to be renegotiated. As a pilot and glider pilot, the one bit of the EU bureaucracy I would like to see removed is the European Aviation Safety Agency, who make running and maintaining a simple bit of kit like a glider about as difficult and complicated as for a Jumbo Jet carrying commercial passenger, but with no discernible gain in actual safety!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			They were too frightened to say they were voting no to independence for fear of being beaten up by people with blue faces
		
Click to expand...


That is a dreadful post, unless it is a failed attempt at [banter] comedy.


----------



## delc (Feb 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a dreadful post, unless it is a failed attempt at [banter] comedy.
		
Click to expand...

But possible true. Scotland has swivel eyed loons who think that their country would be better off outside the UK (remember that the price of oil has slumped), in the same way that swivel eyed loons in England think we would be better off outside the EU!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2016)

delc said:



			But possible true. Scotland has swivel eyed loons who think that their country would be better off outside the UK (remember that the price of oil has slumped), in the same way that swivel eyed loons in England think we would be better off outside the EU!
		
Click to expand...

Scotland has it's share of loons, I shall give you that.
Hobbit was inferring that the Pro Independence group had used intimidation and violence which is a totally different thing.

Oil......I see the Bank of England chief has finely agreed with what many in Scotland have been saying for ages.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 6, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			To the best of my knowledge business 'leaders' have the same amount of voting 'power' as everyone else...

Also. like everyone else they have an opinion and that's it... An opinion... Nothing more nothing less...
		
Click to expand...

But like it or not they have a hell of a lot more influence on the opportunity for the UK population to do an honest days work than everyone else.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a dreadful post, unless it is a failed attempt at [banter] comedy.
		
Click to expand...

For God's sake Doon stop taking life so seriously the aggravation from both sides was well documented. It was only banter, as this isn't Holyrood or Westminster, we all need to lighten up a bit.

if I'd been living in Scotland back then I'd have voted for independence, just as I'll vote out of the EU. For me, it's about self determination and not having a ruling body that so obviously is all about take and not much give for the UK.

Last year we paid Â£10.5billion more than we received back. We were fined a further Â£110million for not having our accounts in on time. And even though both Cameron and Osbourne said it was a money grab on the back of us not paying towards helping Greece out, we're not in the Euro, we still paid up.

have a read about how UK citizens are being denied benefits in the Visigard four, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia. Countries that are supposedly part of the EU club. We're a soft touch, whether it be benefits or exports to other EU countries.

lorry loads of British lambs torched by French farmers. France gets fined but refused to pay the fine. Same happened with Spain.

we play by the rules because it is the British thing to do.

Part of a trading bloc, yes please. Part of a (fair) renegotiated EU I'll consider. But as for what Cameron has brought back from his jaunt, definitely not.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2016)

I dont believe the EU will endure for too long so we are best out of it ASAP.  Just look at the farce going on with the current middle east (plus those from any other country looking for a visa free entry) migrant issue.   The EU has been completely hopeless at formulating a plan for this disaster and the main problem is that Nationalism always overrides the Federal in such cases.  The EU Eastern European countries still live in the shadow of their previous eastern block oppression and are not bought into multiculturalism, these countries don't want and will not take in these migrants and no amount of pressure from the commission will change that.   Add to this the Greek disaster along with the misguided Euro then how can such a unwieldy 'One Fits All' debacle be a suitable our future.

Get out while we can and face future stood on our own feet.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But like it or not they have a hell of a lot more influence on the opportunity for the UK population to do an honest days work than everyone else.
		
Click to expand...


Many of them have been strongly canvassing to have much of the regulations regarding employment changed in their favour or for the UK to ignore them... Basically they just want the best bits... And as I've already said many want to exit but as with his own MPs who want to depart DaveCam doesn't want you to hear what they have to say...

Sorry if that doesn't read right... been blown inside out on the course this morning...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2016)

delc said:



			But possible true. Scotland has swivel eyed loons who think that their country would be better off outside the UK (remember that the price of oil has slumped), in the same way that swivel eyed loons in England think we would be better off outside the EU!
		
Click to expand...

If it's 'swivel eyed loons' were looking out for then Bruxelles has more than you can shake a stick at.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If it's 'swivel eyed loons' were looking out for then Bruxelles has more than you can shake a stick at.
		
Click to expand...

But some of them are the hypocritical UKIP MEPs who are happy to stick their snouts firmly in the trough while condemning all around them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2016)

Ethan said:



			But some of them are the hypocritical UKIP MEPs who are happy to stick their snouts firmly in the trough while condemning all around them.
		
Click to expand...

Rather like SNP MPs in that respect


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

The difference between the UK and France is that the French just ignore any EU Directives they don't like, saying it is only a directive, whereas the UK Government seems to regard them as Copper bottomed, Gold plated Laws that have to be implemented to the letter!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Rather like SNP MPs in that respect
		
Click to expand...

Do you think that they should follow the example of some of the Irish parties and not attend Westminster?

Last time I looked they were elected by UK citizens to represent them.

Speaking of snouts in the trough, perhaps you can inform us how many SNP members sit in the House of Lords?


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Rather like SNP MPs in that respect
		
Click to expand...

There is a big difference. The SNP is a party that runs part of the country (or another country, depending on your view). UKIP are just a single issue protest party whose other manifesto is based on magical thinking or just copied from the internet. Not really the same thing at all.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

Cameron telling his MP's to ignore what their constituency members say on Europe.
That should play well.

End of March will probably see a leadership challenge at this rate.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

Never mind a leadership challenge, this guy thinks we could have an election

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Never mind a leadership challenge, this guy thinks we could have an election

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/

Click to expand...

No chance. The Tories have always been at war with themselves, they have just kept it better hidden most of the time. Cameron has a firm grip on power and none of the Tory ideologues are sufficiently idealistic to risk losing power, so they will get in line enough to keep things going. Turkeys with their snouts firmly in the trough do not vote for Christmas. 

The real battle in the Tory party is for next leader. Gideon thinks he is the man, but Boris and Theresa May possibly think otherwise, and no doubt some lunatic from the fringe also has an eye on it, pulling a reverse Corbyn, as it were.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you think that they should follow the example of some of the Irish parties and not attend Westminster?

Last time I looked they were elected by UK citizens to represent them.

Speaking of snouts in the trough, perhaps you can inform us how many SNP members sit in the House of Lords?
		
Click to expand...

My point was in reply that UKIP being MEPs is similar to the SNP MPs attending Westminster.   Personally I don't give a toss whether the SNP attend Westminster of the HOL.

Last time I looked UKIP MEPs were voted by UK Citizens to represent them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			There is a big difference. The SNP is a party that runs part of the country (or another country, depending on your view). UKIP are just a single issue protest party whose other manifesto is based on magical thinking or just copied from the internet. Not really the same thing at all.
		
Click to expand...

In your rather paranoid opinion.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			My point was in reply that UKIP being MEPs is similar to the SNP MPs attending Westminster.   Personally I don't give a toss whether the SNP attend Westminster of the HOL.

Last time I looked UKIP MEPs were voted by UK Citizens to represent them.
		
Click to expand...

I was nearly going to correct you to MP [singular].................................. until I noticed you switched it to MEP, why was that ?


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			In your rather paranoid opinion.
		
Click to expand...

You express your opinion robustly and without qualification. I guess, like UKIP and other boot boy authoritarians, you don't like others expressing theirs, especially when you have no coherent arguments and must resort to attacks. 

So please explain why my opinion was paranoid. Feel free to use words of more than two syllables even if most UKIP supporters won't understand.

Meantime I will muse on whether your use of the world paranoid was, coming from a UKIP supporter, the ultimate lack of insight (another psych term) or irony. I assume it was the former, in which case, bizarrely it is also the latter, because the UKIP platform is built entirely on paranoia. It should have the slogan 'These foreigners really are all out to get you!".


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			because the UKIP platform is built entirely on paranoia
		
Click to expand...

That's a little disingenuous, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, UKIP are the only party willing to address the topic of immigration. Dave promised a lot in "reducing immigration to 10,000s" and then went and did the opposite. So it's no wonder that UKIP attract a lot of support, and they'd have a lot more MPs in parliament if we had anything like a representational electoral system.

If you're going to admit 300,000+ people into the country a year then it is incumbent to ensure public services and infrastructure mirror that increase in demand. Anything else is going to lead to issues.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a little disingenuous, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, UKIP are the only party willing to address the topic of immigration. Dave promised a lot in "reducing immigration to 10,000s" and then went and did the opposite. So it's no wonder that UKIP attract a lot of support, and they'd have a lot more MPs in parliament if we had anything like a representational electoral system.

If you're going to admit 300,000+ people into the country a year then it is incumbent to ensure public services and infrastructure mirror that increase in demand. Anything else is going to lead to issues.
		
Click to expand...

UKIP were against immigration before rates went up. They are a bunch of people who are either just narrow minded xenophobes and/or are angry with their lot in life and are looking to blame someone, and immigrants are a traditional scapegoat. This stuff about pressure on public services is massively exaggerated. The odious Sun recently apologised for some of its comments about health tourists. We do not have a health tourism problem.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You express your opinion robustly and without qualification. I guess, like UKIP and other boot boy authoritarians, you don't like others expressing theirs, especially when you have no coherent arguments and must resort to attacks. 

So please explain why my opinion was paranoid. Feel free to use words of more than two syllables even if most UKIP supporters won't understand.

Meantime I will muse on whether your use of the world paranoid was, coming from a UKIP supporter, the ultimate lack of insight (another psych term) or irony. I assume it was the former, in which case, bizarrely it is also the latter, because the UKIP platform is built entirely on paranoia. It should have the slogan 'These foreigners really are all out to get you!".
		
Click to expand...

Me thinks you protesteth too much!


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			UKIP were against immigration before rates went up. They are a bunch of people who are either just narrow minded xenophobes and/or are angry with their lot in life and are looking to blame someone, and immigrants are a traditional scapegoat. This stuff about pressure on public services is massively exaggerated. The odious Sun recently apologised for some of its comments about health tourists. We do not have a health tourism problem.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone who identifies as a UKIP supporter is any less narrow minded than those that seek to denounce them all as xenophobes or scapegoaters.

It's perfectly pragmatic to wonder if admitting 300,000+ people every year, at times of 'austerity' and cutbacks, is a good idea. Especially when those coming to our country tend to be the higher skilled and thus limiting their country of origin of their potential to grow.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't think anyone who identifies as a UKIP supporter is any less narrow minded than those that seek to denounce them all as xenophobes or scapegoaters.

It's perfectly pragmatic to wonder if admitting 300,000+ people every year, at times of 'austerity' and cutbacks, is a good idea. Especially when those coming to our country tend to be the higher skilled and thus limiting their country of origin of their potential to grow.
		
Click to expand...

I have asked the question to those decrying anyone who even mentions immigration what they think is acceptable but never seem to get an answer.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			UKIP were against immigration before rates went up. They are a bunch of people who are either just narrow minded xenophobes and/or are angry with their lot in life and are looking to blame someone, and immigrants are a traditional scapegoat. This stuff about pressure on public services is massively exaggerated. The odious Sun recently apologised for some of its comments about health tourists. We do not have a health tourism problem.
		
Click to expand...

Your post seems rather narrow minded and xenophobic as if you are angry with your lot in life and looking to blame someone and UKIP are a traditional scapegoat.    Heal yourself physician.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I have asked the question to those decrying anyone who even mentions immigration what they think is acceptable but never seem to get an answer.
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, it just narks me when people (on either side) come out with sweeping blanket statements.

I think it's a genuine question as whether it's beneficial for our country, and the countries losing their skilled workers, to run a net migration policy of hundreds of thousands.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, it just narks me when people (on either side) come out with sweeping blanket statements.

I think it's a genuine question as whether it's beneficial for our country, and the countries losing their skilled workers, to run a net migration policy of hundreds of thousands.
		
Click to expand...

The best solution must be a points based system that allows entry to those with the skills the country requires, similar to Australia and New Zealand.   This would be fairer as it would not give EU migrants an advantage over people from the rest of the world.

Of course there also needs to be consideration to helping with humanitarian crisis situations.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The best solution must be a points based system that allows entry to those with the skills the country requires, similar to Australia and New Zealand.   This would be fairer as it would not give EU migrants an advantage over people from the rest of the world.

Of course there also needs to be consideration to helping with humanitarian crisis situations.
		
Click to expand...

A points system does seem the sensible policy - to treat everyone equally regardless of where they are from.

I'd also like to see us to take in a greater number refugees - and there may be more appetite to do so if our immigration levels weren't already running at record highs.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post seems rather narrow minded and xenophobic as if you are angry with your lot in life and looking to blame someone and UKIP are a traditional scapegoat.    Heal yourself physician.
		
Click to expand...

Avoiding the question. Again. Full of piss and vinegar but no actual logic or rational thought. How UKIP of you. You were the one throwing around 'paranoid' yet you are incapable of even defending your puerile insults. 

Not worried about UKIP in the slightest, they are a apolitical irrelevance, just one MP and even he hates the leader. Nor blaming them for anything because they don't do anything except get racists and the gullible all excited. After the EU referendum they may disappear altogether. 

So if you are capable of stringing together something coherent to persuade me differently, have at it. I expect not, though.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a little disingenuous, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, UKIP are the only party willing to address the topic of immigration. Dave promised a lot in "reducing immigration to 10,000s" and then went and did the opposite. So it's no wonder that UKIP attract a lot of support, and they'd have a lot more MPs in parliament if we had anything like a representational electoral system.

If you're going to admit 300,000+ people into the country a year then it is incumbent to ensure public services and infrastructure mirror that increase in demand. Anything else is going to lead to issues.
		
Click to expand...

UKIP have whipped up fears about immigration. They have stated large numbers of health tourists, criminals and welfare recipients. They have been wrong on all of those. They have gone on about the proportion of legislation passed by Brussels. Also a lie. They have even complained about traffic on the M4 being due to immigrants clogging up the roads. It is wonder they don't blame the flooding in Cumbria on them too. That fear and hatred is paranoia. 

The country needs highly skilled immigrants. There are plenty of jobs from doctors, scientists, engineers and others which cannot be filled right now, and when filled, will create more tax revenue and money circulating in the economy. But I thought UKIP argued it was all feckless welfare recipients coming here? Which is is - welfare recipients or highly skilled?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			UKIP have whipped up fears about immigration. They have stated large numbers of health tourists, criminals and welfare recipients. They have been wrong on all of those. They have gone on about the proportion of legislation passed by Brussels. Also a lie. They have even complained about traffic on the M4 being due to immigrants clogging up the roads. It is wonder they don't blame the flooding in Cumbria on them too. That fear and hatred is paranoia. 

The country needs highly skilled immigrants. There are plenty of jobs from doctors, scientists, engineers and others which cannot be filled right now, and when filled, will create more tax revenue and money circulating in the economy. But I thought UKIP argued it was all feckless welfare recipients coming here? Which is is - welfare recipients or highly skilled?
		
Click to expand...

So what does the NHS say it costs for health tourism? Is it Â£2mill, or Â£2bill or...?

if, for example, it was Â£2mill, how big would the waiting lists be if the UK didn't have people coming here solely for medical care?


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			UKIP have whipped up fears about immigration. They have stated large numbers of health tourists, criminals and welfare recipients. They have been wrong on all of those. They have gone on about the proportion of legislation passed by Brussels. Also a lie. They have even complained about traffic on the M4 being due to immigrants clogging up the roads. It is wonder they don't blame the flooding in Cumbria on them too. That fear and hatred is paranoia. 

The country needs highly skilled immigrants. There are plenty of jobs from doctors, scientists, engineers and others which cannot be filled right now, and when filled, will create more tax revenue and money circulating in the economy. But I thought UKIP argued it was all feckless welfare recipients coming here? Which is is - welfare recipients or highly skilled?
		
Click to expand...

So why do we need to poach other countries' skilled workers, when we should be educating and training our own people to do these jobs. Probably doesn't say a lot for New Labour's dumbed down, target driven, box ticking education system a few years ago. Apparently standards of basic literacy and numeracy are not great among our young people, compared with many other countries, but this is down to a poor education system rather than any innate lack of ability!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Avoiding the question. Again. Full of piss and vinegar but no actual logic or rational thought. How UKIP of you. You were the one throwing around 'paranoid' yet you are incapable of even defending your puerile insults. 

Not worried about UKIP in the slightest, they are a apolitical irrelevance, just one MP and even he hates the leader. Nor blaming them for anything because they don't do anything except get racists and the gullible all excited. After the EU referendum they may disappear altogether. 

So if you are capable of stringing together something coherent to persuade me differently, have at it. I expect not, though.
		
Click to expand...

I havent the slightest interest in persuading you of anything.  Try reading my posts, there is plenty in them that explains my views on current affairs but your arrogance seems to make you blind to anyone else's opinions.  I care not a piff what your opinion of UKIP is due to you being incapable of seeing anything worthwhile that does not fit your personal agenda.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

If UKIP have as much support within the UK as they seem to have on this forum why do they only have one MP ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If UKIP have as much support within the UK as they seem to have on this forum why do they only have one MP ?
		
Click to expand...

Because they didn't have enough people vote for their members under the way the MPs are electedd


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			UKIP have whipped up fears about immigration. They have stated large numbers of health tourists, criminals and welfare recipients. They have been wrong on all of those. They have gone on about the proportion of legislation passed by Brussels. Also a lie. They have even complained about traffic on the M4 being due to immigrants clogging up the roads. It is wonder they don't blame the flooding in Cumbria on them too. That fear and hatred is paranoia. 

The country needs highly skilled immigrants. There are plenty of jobs from doctors, scientists, engineers and others which cannot be filled right now, and when filled, will create more tax revenue and money circulating in the economy. But I thought UKIP argued it was all feckless welfare recipients coming here? Which is is - welfare recipients or highly skilled?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not particularly interested in UKIP, not sure why you keep bringing it back to that.

All I'm saying is such a high level of migration, at times of austerity, must put pressure on public services and infrastructure.

I'm also concerned for the countries of which we are depriving their best and brightest (and will likely have contributed towards their training).


----------



## jp5 (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If UKIP have as much support within the UK as they seem to have on this forum why do they only have one MP ?
		
Click to expand...

They got much more than twice as many votes as the SNP did!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If UKIP have as much support within the UK as they seem to have on this forum why do they only have one MP ?
		
Click to expand...

They had rather a lot of votes in the GE and won the UK EU election.


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They had rather a lot of votes in the GE and won the UK EU election.
		
Click to expand...

I believe that they got more votes in total than the SNP in the last General Election, but hardly any seats in Parliament. Basically they came second in an lot of English seats, but that didn't get them elected.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			They got much more than twice as many votes as the SNP did!
		
Click to expand...

Answer please


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2016)

delc said:



			I believe that they got more votes in total than the SNP in the last General Election, but hardly any seats in Parliament. Basically they came second in an lot of English seats, but that didn't get them elected.
		
Click to expand...

What a daft argument 59 seats in Scotland.......how many in E&W.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What a daft argument 59 seats in Scotland.......how many in E&W.
		
Click to expand...

What a daft post


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What a daft argument 59 seats in Scotland.......how many in E&W.
		
Click to expand...

The SNP got the majority of votes in a fairly small area (Scotland) which only contains about 10% of the UK population!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2016)

delc said:



			So why do we need to poach other countries' skilled workers, when we should be educating and training our own people to do these jobs. *Probably doesn't say a lot for New Labour's dumbed down, target driven, box ticking education system a few years ago*. Apparently standards of basic literacy and numeracy are not great among our young people, compared with many other countries, *but this is down to a poor education system rather than any innate lack of ability! * 

Click to expand...

Delc I am a school governor and believe you me, the current government do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to education.  Every government meddles to a stupid degree and is incapable of letting the professional teachers get on with it. The amount of educational policy based mostly on political ideology and dogma as opposed to proven educational research currently occurring is frightening.

If all you do is blame a government that has not been in power for over a term now for whatever ills we currently have then you are either deluded, stupid or swallow the tired old party central office mandated line that all parties tow of blaming everyone else.

Oh and you are wrong, a lot of it is cultural as the aspirations of many children are mostly not shaped by teachers but by parents, family, the media and society itself.  The teachers can only work with what they get.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			If all you do is blame a government that has not been in power for over a term now for whatever ills we currently have then you are either deluded, stupid or swallow the tired old party central office mandated line that all parties tow of blaming everyone else.
		
Click to expand...

OMG! I agree with HK again. Pass me some more yoghurt


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			OMG! I agree with HK again. Pass me some more yoghurt
		
Click to expand...

I'll bring the knitting needles


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll bring the knitting needles  

Click to expand...

Lets go hug a tree


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I havent the slightest interest in persuading you of anything.  Try reading my posts, there is plenty in them that explains my views on current affairs but your arrogance seems to make you blind to anyone else's opinions.  I care not a piff what your opinion of UKIP is due to you being incapable of seeing anything worthwhile that does not fit your personal agenda.
		
Click to expand...

Typical UKIP. No coherent arguments, only ad hominem attacks and throwing the toys out. Have you considered standing for them? You seem highly qualified. 

Happy for you not to debate me at all, and you could pay the ultimate insult by ignoring all my posts. Please.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Delc I am a school governor and believe you me, the current government do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to education.  Every government meddles to a stupid degree and is incapable of letting the professional teachers get on with it. The amount of educational policy based mostly on political ideology and dogma as opposed to proven educational research currently occurring is frightening.

If all you do is blame a government that has not been in power for over a term now for whatever ills we currently have then you are either deluded, stupid or swallow the tired old party central office mandated line that all parties tow of blaming everyone else.

Oh and you are wrong, a lot of it is cultural as the aspirations of many children are mostly not shaped by teachers but by parents, family, the media and society itself.  The teachers can only work with what they get.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree - especially about the constant blaming of labour who haven't been near government for half a decade now


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Delc I am a school governor and believe you me, the current government do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to education.  Every government meddles to a stupid degree and is incapable of letting the professional teachers get on with it. The amount of educational policy based mostly on political ideology and dogma as opposed to proven educational research currently occurring is frightening.

If all you do is blame a government that has not been in power for over a term now for whatever ills we currently have then you are either deluded, stupid or swallow the tired old party central office mandated line that all parties tow of blaming everyone else.

Oh and you are wrong, a lot of it is cultural as the aspirations of many children are mostly not shaped by teachers but by parents, family, the media and society itself.  The teachers can only work with what they get.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but our unemployed and allegedly useless young people in their late teens and early 20's were mainly educated under New Labour. Keeping them off the dole queue for a few years by doing useless degrees in soft subjects doesn't really prepare them for the workplace! I am sure that the Tories are meddling too, but at least they are trying to improve standards.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			So what does the NHS say it costs for health tourism? Is it Â£2mill, or Â£2bill or...?

if, for example, it was Â£2mill, how big would the waiting lists be if the UK didn't have people coming here solely for medical care?
		
Click to expand...

Somewhere in between. The NHS budget is Â£133 billion. The cost of health tourism, that is people who travel to the UK to take advantage of free care, costs something in the region of 0.05% of that budget. That is an amount which falls within the noise of the budget. In other words, it is hard to notice it at a governmental level. Probably not worth making major public policy changes like leaving the EU for that.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			100% agree - especially about the constant blaming of labour who haven't been near government for half a decade now
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			OMG! I agree with HK again. Pass me some more yoghurt
		
Click to expand...

Bloody hell, LP and Hobbit both agreeing with me. Must be losing my touch....


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Typical UKIP. No coherent arguments, only ad hominem attacks and throwing the toys out. Have you considered standing for them? You seem highly qualified. 

Happy for you not to debate me at all, and you could pay the ultimate insult by ignoring all my posts. Please.
		
Click to expand...

Oh! The irony.  Your posts are full of statements with no substance.

PS

You could take your own advise and ignore my posts.   I wont mind!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes, but our unemployed and allegedly useless young people in their late teens and early 20's were mainly educated under New Labour. Keeping them off the dole queue for a few years by doing useless degrees in soft subjects doesn't really prepare them for the workplace! I am sure that the Tories are meddling too*, but at least they are trying to improve standards*.
		
Click to expand...

Other than hearsay and speculation your evidence for this is???


----------



## delc (Feb 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Other than hearsay and speculation your evidence for this is???
		
Click to expand...

At least exams have been made more stringent, so not everybody passes with an A* in the interests of equality!


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Somewhere in between. The NHS budget is Â£133 billion. The cost of health tourism, that is people who travel to the UK to take advantage of free care, costs something in the region of 0.05% of that budget. That is an amount which falls within the noise of the budget. In other words, it is hard to notice it at a governmental level. Probably not worth making major public policy changes like leaving the EU for that.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to be a pendant but if it's in the region of, say, Â£20 million it's hardly noise. Â£20 mill will pay a lot of nurses wages. 

Writing off Â£20 mill is careless at best.

since originally asking, the cost is Â£34mill, of which almost Â£20 mill is recovered but at a cost not calculated. Further, the overall cost to the state of those that avail themselves of health tourism but require care outside of acute care in hospital is closer to Â£2billion.

A number not calculated but of great concern is the number of claims being made against fraudulently acquired EHIC cards used in foreign hospitals.

As the sum needed to cover the NHS's shortfall is Â£8billion, and over Â£2 billion is being lost to health tourism and the fraudulent use of EHIC cards... That's definitely not noise hidden in the overall budget.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes, but our unemployed and allegedly useless young people in their late teens and early 20's were mainly educated under New Labour. Keeping them off the dole queue for a few years by doing useless degrees in soft subjects doesn't really prepare them for the workplace! I am sure that the Tories are meddling too, but at least they are trying to improve standards.
		
Click to expand...

I've been employing staff, inc. youngsters, for over 20 yrs. The youngsters coming out of school in recent years have been way better than those I was seeing 10 yrs ago. 

They're well educated, articulate and a credit to the system they've been in for the thick end of 20 yrs. 

doing them down, and in effect the teachers that have educated them is very unfair at best.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2016)

delc said:



			The SNP got the majority of votes in a fairly small area (Scotland) which only contains about 10% of the UK population!
		
Click to expand...

Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP'.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP'.
		
Click to expand...

surely you are intelligent enough, and been around long enough, to understand the first past the post electoral system the UK has.  In effect, almost half of Scottish voters have no representation in the Scottish Parliament. And conversely, as someone clearly explained earlier. UKIP received more votes than the SNP but didn't win seats because they weren't first past the post.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  *'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP*'.
		
Click to expand...

The question has been answered 

The did receive enough votes in each area to gain MP's -you already know the answer


----------



## jp5 (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP'.
		
Click to expand...

I would hazard a guess at a "non-representational electoral system".


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The question has been answered 

The did receive enough votes in each area to gain MP's -you already know the answer
		
Click to expand...

I assume you missed out an 'not' between did and receive.

So basically what you are saying is that they were not popular enough in 500+ seats to gather enough votes to elect more than one MP.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I would hazard a guess at a "non-representational electoral system".
		
Click to expand...

Cracked it in one....well done.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If UKIP have as much support within the UK as they seem to have on this forum why do they only have one MP ?
		
Click to expand...


Wanting out of the EU doesn't necessarily make you a UKIP voter...
It might in your world but certainly not mine...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I assume you missed out an 'not' between did and receive.

So basically what you are saying is that they were not popular enough in 500+ seats to gather enough votes to elect more than one MP.
		
Click to expand...

Doon you know exactly why UKIP didn't get more than one MP so why ask the question ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP'.
		
Click to expand...

No one answered because it was a silly question.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes, but our unemployed and allegedly useless young people in their late teens and early 20's were mainly educated under New Labour. *Keeping them off the dole queue for a few years by doing useless degrees in soft subjects doesn't really prepare them for the workplace! *I am sure that the Tories are meddling too, but at least they are trying to improve standards.
		
Click to expand...

Quick question on this 'soft degree' stuff.  My lad got himself a 2:1 in Journalism and graduated about 2 yrs ago.  Is 'journalism' a soft degree?  He did not have any difficulty getting himself a job very soon after graduation - the fact that the job had nothing to do with what he studied didn't stop him.  He decided he needed a job, decided that he couldn't be fussy - so went out and got one - and he got it in Sheffield - hardly the easiest place in the UK to get a job you might think.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No one answered because it was a silly question.
		
Click to expand...

.......and you did not know the answer


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be a pendant but if it's in the region of, say, Â£20 million it's hardly noise. Â£20 mill will pay a lot of nurses wages. 

Writing off Â£20 mill is careless at best.

since originally asking, the cost is Â£34mill, of which almost Â£20 mill is recovered but at a cost not calculated. Further, the overall cost to the state of those that avail themselves of health tourism but require care outside of acute care in hospital is closer to Â£2billion.

A number not calculated but of great concern is the number of claims being made against fraudulently acquired EHIC cards used in foreign hospitals.

As the sum needed to cover the NHS's shortfall is Â£8billion, and over Â£2 billion is being lost to health tourism and the fraudulent use of EHIC cards... That's definitely not noise hidden in the overall budget.
		
Click to expand...

Â£20million is peanuts in context of government spending - for instance it's less than both the funding shortfall and the grant given to the London Garden Bridge project by the Dept for Transport when they kicked off the project last year.  

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-to-begin-despite-30m-shortfall-private-money

And it wouldn't fund many that nurses - at best one for each NHS organisation (of which I believe there are about 400 in E&W)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2169697/England-hospitals-money-continues-poured-NHS.html


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Â£20million is peanuts in context of government spending - for instance it's less than both the funding shortfall and the grant given to the London Garden Bridge project by the Dept for Transport when they kicked off the project last year.  

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-to-begin-despite-30m-shortfall-private-money

And it wouldn't fund many that nurses - at best one for each NHS organisation (of which I believe there are about 400 in E&W)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2169697/England-hospitals-money-continues-poured-NHS.html

Click to expand...

Â£20 million might in isolation be considered peanuts when compared to total government spending but how many other Â£20 millions are there across different departments for different reasons? All those soon add up to a sum where maybe if they weren't being wasted then we'd have more money to spend on other things or reduce the cuts being implemented.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			surely you are intelligent enough, and been around long enough, to understand the first past the post electoral system the UK has.  *In effect, almost half of Scottish voters have no representation in the Scottish Parliament. *And conversely, as someone clearly explained earlier. UKIP received more votes than the SNP but didn't win seats because they weren't first past the post.
		
Click to expand...

Except they do.  The SNP has 50% of the 128 seats in Holyrood - the rest have 50%.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Â£20 million might in isolation be considered peanuts when compared to total government spending but how many other Â£20 millions are there across different departments for different reasons? All those soon add up to a sum where maybe if they weren't being wasted then we'd have more money to spend on other things or reduce the cuts being implemented.
		
Click to expand...

But the point wasn't about *all* departments


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But the point wasn't about *all* departments
		
Click to expand...

Ok so what about all the other Â£20 millions within the NHS that are being wasted? I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples such as paying over the odds for stationary or bandages etc.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Ok so what about all the other Â£20 millions within the NHS that are being wasted? I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples such as paying over the odds for stationary or bandages etc.
		
Click to expand...

yes - but if I recall correctly the point was in the context of 'health-tourism' not about inefficiencies in the NHS.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2016)

I am sure someone could find a link if they wanted...

I remember hearing recently[ish] NHS spend Â£20M+ on translators....
And, the police a whole lot more...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I am sure someone could find a link if they wanted...

I remember hearing recently[ish] NHS spend Â£20M+ on translators....
And, the police a whole lot more...
		
Click to expand...

yes - and...

there are lots and lots of services that the NHS provide that I don't use or even know about - doesn't make them less valuable .


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes - and...
		
Click to expand...

and... I thought the talk was about cost, to the NHS, of health tourism...


----------



## Ethan (Feb 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be a *pendant* but if it's in the region of, say, Â£20 million it's hardly noise. Â£20 mill will pay a lot of nurses wages. 

Writing off Â£20 mill is careless at best.

since originally asking, the cost is Â£34mill, of which almost Â£20 mill is recovered but at a cost not calculated. Further, the overall cost to the state of those that avail themselves of health tourism but require care outside of acute care in hospital is closer to Â£2billion.

A number not calculated but of great concern is the number of claims being made against fraudulently acquired EHIC cards used in foreign hospitals.

As the sum needed to cover the NHS's shortfall is Â£8billion, and over Â£2 billion is being lost to health tourism and the fraudulent use of EHIC cards... That's definitely not noise hidden in the overall budget.
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to hang around someone's neck if you want. 

Could you cite a (reliable) source for those figures and define what is meant that costs Â£2bn?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			and... I thought the talk was about cost, to the NHS, of health tourism...
		
Click to expand...

Ok - some part of the need for translators will be to do with health tourism; some will be to do with immigration from Europe; some with refugees from Syria, points further east and south; some will be to do with immigration from commonwealth countries - and then there are us Scots down here - some of us are unintelligible (though my Mrs provides a free translator service for me)


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 8, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Feel free to hang around someone's neck if you want. 

Could you cite a (reliable) source for those figures and define what is meant that costs Â£2bn?
		
Click to expand...

Hanging some on here by the neck is so tempting some times, but I'm sure even you knew what I meant.

And the source was the NHS's own figures, as of 2013. Not, I hasten to add, from the Daily Mail.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hanging some on here by the neck is so tempting some times, but I'm sure even you knew what I meant.

And the source was the NHS's own figures, as of 2013. Not, I hasten to add, from the Daily Mail.
		
Click to expand...

What I meant was what the figures actually meant. There is a difference between costs incurred by people otherwise not eligible for NHS treatment who have travelled here specifically for treatment, legit visitors who need some treatment while here (as people here do while abroad), and the basis for wider cost calculations. There are a lot of data points available, depending on what you are measuring and how you measure it. 

There is also a big difference between the cost that in incurred and the price that would be charged to a paying visitor. Huge difference, often. Saying that X amount of fees for healthcare were unpaid is very different from X costs were incurred by the NHS on these patients. 

The Daily Mail has been known to choose data points which suit its particular bias.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





Doon frae Troon said:



			Typical UKIP avoidance, my question was nothing to do with the SNP, it was to do with UKIP

The simple question I was asking, and so far have not received an answer is........  'if UKIP are so popular why do they only have one MP'.
		
Click to expand...

No one answered because it was a silly question.
		
Click to expand...

Well by my count - and after his prompt - it's had 4 answers!

And doesn't appear to be any sillier than many/most of the questions/comments in the thread.

FWIW, in the 'proportional representation' of the 2014 MEP elections, UKIP was the leading party - which given its 'let's get out of Europe' policy is either scary for the 'let's stay in' folk or 'a healthy brake on the federalists' for many of the rest!

I'm actually a fan of the hybrid that happened in the last Parliament - where FPTP meant that Lib-Dems were able to moderate some of the more extreme aims of the Conservatives. They just didn't get their message of their achievements (which were all 'negatives anyway!) across well enough, or even at all!, imo.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be a pendant but if it's in the region of, say, Â£20 million it's hardly noise. Â£20 mill will pay a lot of nurses wages. 

Writing off Â£20 mill is careless at best.

since originally asking, the cost is Â£34mill, of which almost Â£20 mill is recovered but at a cost not calculated. 
....
		
Click to expand...

While certainly not an insignificant amount, it really isn't much in the scale of a Â£95Bn budget! As a measure of its insignificance, it's only just more than a tenner overpayment for every employee for example! And it's likely that the cost of recovering that money would be more expensive than the amount recovered! Though there could well be a 'business opportunity' for you if you wish! I'm sure they'd be happy to share the proceeds - at your risk of course!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2016)

Just been listening to Rob Wainwright - Director of Europol - being interviewed on Newsnight, and being unequivocal in stating that he will vote to remain in the EU given the significant benefits that he sees with UK being part of the EU in respect of security.  I await the repost from the Brexit Crew dismissing his view as scaremongering - but maybe some will listen and take on board what he has said and why he is voting STAY.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just been listening to Rob Wainwright - Director of Europol - being interviewed on Newsnight, and being unequivocal in stating that he will vote to remain in the EU given the significant benefits that he sees with UK being part of the EU in respect of security.  I await the repost from the Brexit Crew dismissing his view as scaremongering - but maybe some will listen and take on board what he has said and why he is voting STAY.
		
Click to expand...

I would say he has a vested interest.  

InterPol has 190 member countries so how do the majority manage without being in the EU?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2016)

Polls seem to be indicating a swing towards Brexit and it's in the Guardian so it must be true!

'Call Me Dave's' stitching up is not working!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-but-a-fifth-undecided-yougov-poll-suggests


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just been listening to Rob Wainwright - Director of Europol - being interviewed on Newsnight, and being unequivocal in stating that he will vote to remain in the EU given the significant benefits that he sees with UK being part of the EU in respect of security.  I await the repost from the Brexit Crew dismissing his view as scaremongering - but maybe some will listen and take on board what he has said and why he is voting STAY.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't see the programme so can't comment on his opinion but I assume he gave some of the benefits rather than just said they were significant.

Up to yesterday I was fairly sure that I would have voted to stay in the EU but after Cameron lying about the Calais "Jungle" migrant camp moving to the south coast of England if we left I'm wondering what else he's lying about. There are two very good reasons why the camp won't move to England. The first is that we have a bilateral agreement with France that has nothing to do with the EU. And secondly because if we leave and France scrap the agreement we can strengthen our checks on people entering the country and we are allowed to simply return anyone that is trying to enter illegally straight back to France where they came from.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Polls seem to be indicating a swing towards Brexit and it's in the Guardian so it must be true!

'Call Me Dave's' stitching up is not working!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-but-a-fifth-undecided-yougov-poll-suggests

Click to expand...

Interesting comment under that article about a leave vote not actually meaning we'll leave but it being used by the government to get more concessions before a second referendum. Is it possible that could happen?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting comment under that article about a leave vote not actually meaning we'll leave but it being used by the government to get more concessions before a second referendum. Is it possible that could happen?
		
Click to expand...


I am almost certain that is what will happen...

While Cameron is in No10 he is not of a mind to take us out...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



*I didn't see the programme so can't comment on his opinion but I assume he gave some of the benefits rather than just said they were significant.*

Up to yesterday I was fairly sure that I would have voted to stay in the EU but after Cameron lying about the Calais "Jungle" migrant camp moving to the south coast of England if we left I'm wondering what else he's lying about. There are two very good reasons why the camp won't move to England. The first is that we have a bilateral agreement with France that has nothing to do with the EU. And secondly because if we leave and France scrap the agreement we can strengthen our checks on people entering the country and we are allowed to simply return anyone that is trying to enter illegally straight back to France where they came from.
		
Click to expand...

Yes he did.  And he was clear that of course the UK could set up it's own equivalent, but that it could not be as effective,  and was clear on the benefits to UK of being in Europol and why Norway was relatively disadvantaged.

And of course I fully expect the 'personal vested interest' argument to be thrown at him - but to suggest that he would vote to STAY because he likes his job and probably gets paid well...really?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I would say he has a vested interest.  

InterPol has 190 member countries so how do the majority manage without being in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

He was talking about the benefits the UK got from being in Europol.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He was talking about the benefits the UK got from being in Europol.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't those benefits still be there if we left the EU and remained a member of Interpol?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't those benefits still be there if we left the EU and remained a member of Interpol?
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea but clearly he does - and also clearly he *knows *that being in Europol has advantages for UK security beyond what Interpol provides.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I would say he has a vested interest.  
...
		
Click to expand...

Of course he has a 'vested' interest! That's why he was being interviewed!  If they only interviewed those without vested interests, they would be be very dull interviews indeed!

Whether folk consider his, or those of any others with equivalent vested interests - like executives of car assembly plants, technology companies, financial institutions and the like - to be important is up to them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Of course he has a 'vested' interest! That's why he was being interviewed!  If they only interviewed those without vested interests, they would be be very dull interviews indeed!

Whether folk consider his, or those of any others with equivalent vested interests - like executives of car assembly plants, technology companies, financial institutions and the like - to be important is up to them.
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to his vested interest in being a member of the Gravy Train rather than the rather obvious points you mentioned.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2016)

I see that today the French have said that whatever the result of the referendum they have no intention of scrapping the agreement that allows UK border officials to check passports in Calais and other French ports to stop illegal immigrants. Kind of puts a hole in Cameron's claims from yesterday and exposes it for the scaremongering it clearly was. I wonder what the next scare stories will be from the increasingly desperate campaign to stay in the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see that today the French have said that whatever the result of the referendum they have no intention of scrapping the agreement that allows UK border officials to check passports in Calais and other French ports to stop illegal immigrants. Kind of puts a hole in Cameron's claims from yesterday and exposes it for the scaremongering it clearly was. *I wonder what the next scare stories will be from the increasingly desperate campaign to stay in the EU.*

Click to expand...

If we leave the EU the French wont like us!   

Wait a minute!!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2016)

It will probably be that if we leave we will no longer be able to enter the Eurovision Song Contest. Although maybe that should be put across as a positive thing by the leave campaign.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2016)

The UKâ€™s trade deficit with the European Union in goods has widened to its largest level on record according to figures from the ONS.

Never mind Benefit Brakes and Red flags this lame duck needs us more than we need them.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I was referring to his vested interest in being a member of the Gravy Train rather than the rather obvious points you mentioned.
		
Click to expand...

So anyone who works for any institution with a European aspect has a 'vested interest' (lining their own pockets) and so is not to be trusted to give a fair and objective view of the benefits or otherwise of being in the EU.  That seems incredibly cynical but perhaps typical of the sort of response the Brexit Crew come out with when they hear something that may be positive for the EU STAY campaign.  But there you go.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The UKâ€™s trade deficit with the European Union in goods has widened to its largest level on record according to figures from the ONS.

Never mind Benefit Brakes and Red flags this lame duck needs us more than we need them.
		
Click to expand...

Ah! Another of the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics selective stats cases!

EU still accounts for (2014 figures) for 44.6% of exports and 53.2% of imports. A rather dominant trading partner and, I would suggest, one to be threatened only after careful consideration!

Of course, the figures for Exports also include the values provided by the multi-nationals like Nissan, Honda and other vehicle manufacturers, for example, who use UK as their foothold into Europe and would quite likely use another EU country if UK withdrew! 80% of vehicles manufactured in UK are exported so this alone rather distorts trade figures - let alone the other less obvious manufacturing concerns (Chemicals, Technology etc).

Oh and the EU would, I believe, have no qualms about ditching London as a Financial centre, probably using Frankfurt instead. That alone contributes some 38.3 Bn to the (overall) surplus! And if insurance and pensions is included, that's another 20.9 Bn of the 78.9Bn Services surplus! Definitely something that should be 'protected'! 

If those 2 sectors (Vehicle Manufacturing and Financial Services) are shrunk, there'd also be a considerable cost to UK in terms of jobs - as both employ very high numbers!

Of course, all this is mere speculation. I'd be interested to see an independent study of the effects of the various scenarios.

I do, however. suspect that a withdrawal from EU would merely be a(nother) step from UK being the/a major power/Empire towards insignificance! With so much concern within EU about refugees, as opposed to economic migrants, I believe now is the time to establish some 'better' rules that would placate the 'immigration extremists' while maintaining UK's current position/role!


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So anyone who works for any institution with a European aspect has a 'vested interest' (lining their own pockets) and so is not to be trusted to give a fair and objective view of the benefits or otherwise of being in the EU.  That seems incredibly cynical but perhaps typical of the sort of response the Brexit Crew come out with when they hear something that may be positive for the EU STAY campaign.  But there you go.
		
Click to expand...

While Socket's point may have a degree of relevance - there appear to be a number of bodies where the 'gravy train' accusation could be applied (UKIP, and others, MEP costs/expenses for example) - would anyone similarly challenge the equivalent views of the heads of Interpol or NATO? 

It's good to see that one of the topics of agreement is the proposal to address some of that 'too much civil service' area! One of my favourite bumper stickers was one stating 'Lower Taxes by Less Government'!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 10, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			EU still accounts for (2014 figures) for 44.6% of exports and 53.2% of imports. A rather dominant trading partner and, I would suggest, one to be threatened only after careful consideration!

Of course, the figures for Exports also include the values provided by the multi-nationals like Nissan, Honda and other vehicle manufacturers, for example, who use UK as their foothold into Europe and would quite likely use another EU country if UK withdrew! 80% of vehicles manufactured in UK are exported so this alone rather distorts trade figures - let alone the other less obvious manufacturing concerns (Chemicals, Technology etc).
		
Click to expand...

Does this mean that if we left the EU and the car manufacturers left we would be exporting less to Europe (as the car exports would be taken out of the figures) and importing more from them (as we would then be importing the cars to sell here)? 

If that is correct then surely it is even more in the interests of the EU to continue trading with the UK as the difference between exports and imports would be even more in their favour.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2016)

_A majority of Scots would back independence if the UK votes to leave the European Union (EU), a new poll has found.

The Ipsos MORI for STV News poll suggests Brexit would increase support for a Yes vote in the event of a second independence referendum.

It found Scots are strongly in favour of remaining in the EU, with 62% stating they would vote to remain, 26% who would vote to leave and 12% who are not sure._

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...back_independence_if_UK_exits_EU/?ref=mr&lp=4

Paradoxical is it not, that those who proclaim loudest for a *United* Kingdom - one independent from Europe - are most likely, if their wish to LEAVE comes to pass, be responsible for the break up of said United Kingdom.  A United Kingdom that - if the polls are to believed - is quite DisUnited in it's view on EU LEAVE/STAY.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 10, 2016)

Do you think that those that were strongly in favour of Scottish independence will be voting to leave the EU as a means to achieving their desired outcome?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! Another of the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics selective stats cases!

EU still accounts for (2014 figures) for 44.6% of exports and 53.2% of imports. A rather dominant trading partner and, I would suggest, one to be threatened only after careful consideration!

Of course, the figures for Exports also include the values provided by the multi-nationals like Nissan, Honda and other vehicle manufacturers, for example, who use UK as their foothold into Europe and would quite likely use another EU country if UK withdrew! 80% of vehicles manufactured in UK are exported so this alone rather distorts trade figures - let alone the other less obvious manufacturing concerns (Chemicals, Technology etc).

Oh and the EU would, I believe, have no qualms about ditching London as a Financial centre, probably using Frankfurt instead. That alone contributes some 38.3 Bn to the (overall) surplus! And if insurance and pensions is included, that's another 20.9 Bn of the 78.9Bn Services surplus! Definitely something that should be 'protected'! 

If those 2 sectors (Vehicle Manufacturing and Financial Services) are shrunk, there'd also be a considerable cost to UK in terms of jobs - as both employ very high numbers!

Of course, all this is mere speculation. I'd be interested to see an independent study of the effects of the various scenarios.

I do, however. suspect that a withdrawal from EU would merely be a(nother) step from UK being the/a major power/Empire towards insignificance! With so much concern within EU about refugees, as opposed to economic migrants, I believe now is the time to establish some 'better' rules that would placate the 'immigration extremists' while maintaining UK's current position/role!
		
Click to expand...

Do you deny the ONS trade figures being correct?

Does anyone actually believe that we would lose our exports to the EU if we left or that they would wish to export less to us?   I cant imagine any way that our trade would be threatened if we left.

The Foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK could of course move production to other EU countries but would they want to do that?  Surely that would depend largely on what sort of trade agreement would be put in place following Brexit and there would be one.    These manufacturers would not do that without some massive costs and disruption, my opinion is that it would be very unlikely.

Why do you think that financial services would change, what difference would it make if the UK was out the EU? and are you suggesting countries would change due to some kind of revenge or spite!   Really!

Britain's position of 'Power' and 'Influence' in the World has no or little relevance to it being a member of the EU in my opinion. In fact I would say it is watered down by us being a part of the big-bland security blanket that cannot find political solutions to anything much (Well, except to the shape and form of bananas) What a breath of fresh air it would be to once again have true Sovereignty over our affairs.

Regarding immigration/migration I think the current situation in the EU will be a major deciding factor for many in the referendum and will play a bigger part in peoples considerations than factors like the economy or temporary/tapered brakes on EU migrant workers benefits.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_A majority of Scots would back independence if the UK votes to leave the European Union (EU), a new poll has found.

The Ipsos MORI for STV News poll suggests Brexit would increase support for a Yes vote in the event of a second independence referendum.

It found Scots are strongly in favour of remaining in the EU, with 62% stating they would vote to remain, 26% who would vote to leave and 12% who are not sure._

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...back_independence_if_UK_exits_EU/?ref=mr&lp=4

Paradoxical is it not, that those who proclaim loudest for a *United* Kingdom - one independent from Europe - are most likely, if their wish to LEAVE comes to pass, be responsible for the break up of said United Kingdom.  A United Kingdom that - if the polls are to believed - is quite DisUnited in it's view on EU LEAVE/STAY.
		
Click to expand...

The Scots voted to stay in the UK.

The Scots will get a proportional say in the Stay/Leave EU referendum.

There is no reason why the UK would allow another Scottish Independence election in the foreseeable future, even with a Brexit.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK could of course move production to other EU countries but would they want to do that?  Surely that would depend largely on what sort of trade agreement would be put in place following Brexit and there would be one.    These manufacturers would not do that without some massive costs and disruption, my opinion is that it would be very unlikely.

Regarding immigration/migration I think the current situation in the EU will be a major deciding factor for many in the referendum and will play a bigger part in peoples considerations than factors like the economy or temporary/tapered brakes on EU migrant workers benefits.
		
Click to expand...

Some EU manufacturers are already moving manufacturing from the original home country to EU countries where labour is cheaper. 

I don't think immigration issues will play any greater part than they already do, other than DC is using it as a scare tactic.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does this mean that if we left the EU and the car manufacturers left we would be exporting less to Europe (as the car exports would be taken out of the figures) and importing more from them (as we would then be importing the cars to sell here)?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it would!



ColchesterFC said:



			If that is correct then surely it is even more in the interests of the EU to continue trading with the UK as the difference between exports and imports would be even more in their favour.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I meant by my Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics comment!

Of course the EU would - and will - continue to trade with UK. And UK consumers will still demand the goods that would be manufactured somewhere other than UK! 

If nothing else changed in that example, UK would merely have lost 10s of thousands of jobs, a huge amount of GDP and Tax Revenue, and the goods would almost certainly cost more! But the Trade Deficit would be larger still! In fact, what it really demonstrates is that the Trade Deficit is a 'nothing' metric for this sort of comparison!


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you deny the ONS trade figures being correct?
		
Click to expand...

Where do you think the 44.6% and 53.2% figures came from !!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Where do you think the 44.6% and 53.2% figures came from !!
		
Click to expand...

You said:

*"Ah! Another of the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics selective stats cases!"
*
Which to me indicates my comment on the current trade gap with the EU widening is incorrect"

If thats not what you meant then I apologise but thats the way it reads to me.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You said:

*"Ah! Another of the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics selective stats cases!"
*
Which to me indicates my comment on the current trade gap with the EU widening is incorrect"

If thats not what you meant then I apologise but thats the way it reads to me.
		
Click to expand...

Not incorrect, merely selective/interpretive! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

Apology accepted, though I'm not sure one was needed.


----------



## delc (Feb 10, 2016)

I suspect that the remaining EU countries will make life difficult for us if we leave.  I shall be voting to stay in, come what may.  I feel fairly European anyway. Why is the EU being portrayed by the Daily Mail and right wing Torues as being undemocratic, when it has an elected parliament?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2016)

Perhaps Mr Cameron can ask the EU folk if we can skip a payment, for one day, so we can give 'our' kids their school meal back...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...-fund-worth-£32-million/ar-BBpjO63?li=BBoPWjQ


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2016)

delc said:



			I suspect that the remaining EU countries will make life difficult for us if we leave.  I shall be voting to stay in, come what may.  I feel fairly European anyway. Why is the EU being portrayed by the Daily Mail and right wing Torues as being undemocratic, when it has an elected parliament?
		
Click to expand...

So you obviously feel that for you the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the negatives. What are the benefits you see and what, if any, negatives? 

That question is open to all those that will be voting to stay in, not just Delc.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Scots voted to stay in the UK.

The Scots will get a proportional say in the Stay/Leave EU referendum.

*There is no reason why the UK would allow another Scottish Independence election in the foreseeable future, even with a Brexit.*

Click to expand...

Which is just the sort of statement that many Scots would consider extremely arrogant and likely to increase the demand for another referendum - do you not understand anything about the way many Scots think when they hear statements such as this coming from Westminster, Cameron or any points south of the border?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is just the sort of statement that many Scots would consider extremely arrogant and likely to increase the demand for another referendum - do you not understand anything about the way many Scots think when they hear statements such as this coming from Westminster, Cameron or any points south of the border?
		
Click to expand...

Scots had their vote and that put an end to independence.
They will get their vote in the eu referendum just like the rest of us.  They are part of the UK, not something special.

Get over it for Peter sake (not sure who Pete is though)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is just the sort of statement that many Scots would consider extremely arrogant and likely to increase the demand for another referendum - do you not understand anything about the way many Scots think when they hear statements such as this coming from Westminster, Cameron or any points south of the border?
		
Click to expand...

You had your vote on independence and they said NO - just to repeat again - they said NO

Scotland is part of the U.K. And will be for the foreseeable future. End of


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is just the sort of statement that many Scots would consider extremely arrogant and likely to increase the demand for another referendum - do you not understand anything about the way many Scots think when they hear statements such as this coming from Westminster, Cameron or any points south of the border?
		
Click to expand...

I genuinely don't understand why the UK Parliament, Westminster, can't make statements based on UK policies. If Scottish EU membership fell under the remit of the Scottish Parliament, I could understand the upset. 

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, but all the Yes for independence seem to want to link the EU vote to independence. When you're in a club, follow the club rules, or leave. You had the chance but decided to stay. By all means argue to stay or leave as a UK member, but as a Scot arguing it for Scotland... sorry but I find you arrogant!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I genuinely don't understand why the UK Parliament, Westminster, can't make statements based on UK policies. If Scottish EU membership fell under the remit of the Scottish Parliament, I could understand the upset. 

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, but all the Yes for independence seem to want to link the EU vote to independence. When you're in a club, follow the club rules, or leave. You had the chance but decided to stay. By all means argue to stay or leave as a UK member, but as a Scot arguing it for Scotland... *sorry but I find you arrogant!*

Click to expand...

I'm just pointing out that by telling Scots to shut up and get on with it you will just wind many up even more than they currently are. There is no need to say it.  

The Herald (quite a strong SNP BAD newspaper these days) is only reporting on a survey on EU STAY/LEAVE and how Scots might see things in the event of a UK LEAVE.   And the Herald is saying that it could result in increased calls for a second referendum (even though the SNP probably don't want one for some years).  There is absolutely no point in telling Scots to 'shut up' about it - they won't and it will only makes things worse.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm just pointing out that by telling Scots to shut up and get on with it you will just wind many up even more than they currently are. There is no need to say it.  

The Herald (quite a strong SNP BAD newspaper these days) is only reporting on a survey on EU STAY/LEAVE and how Scots might see things in the event of a UK LEAVE.   And the Herald is saying that it could result in increased calls for a second referendum (even though the SNP probably don't want one for some years).  There is absolutely no point in telling Scots to 'shut up' about it - they won't and it will only makes things worse.
		
Click to expand...

Why differentiate between the countries within the UK when this is UK issue, not a Scot 'v' English 'v' Welsh 'v' N Ireland issue. There's a UK parliament, of which the SNP obviously recognise by their involvement there, and a UK electorate that will make a decision. The "if we don't like it we're off" attitude is tantamount to blackmail and just gets the back up of those on the receiving end.

Seriously, coming across all hurt by politicians, or other UK citizens, who are fed up hearing "we want or else," and are biting back... sympathy you won't get, but I'm more than happy to have a debate that recognises both sides of the argument without the "do it or else attitude" which appears from north of the border.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

Anyway.........here is some good news for Hobbit.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/junior-doctors-are-moving-to-scotland#.xpV61JlKW


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Why differentiate between the countries within the UK when this is UK issue, not a Scot 'v' English 'v' Welsh 'v' N Ireland issue. There's a UK parliament, of which the SNP obviously recognise by their involvement there, and a UK electorate that will make a decision. The "if we don't like it we're off" attitude is tantamount to blackmail and just gets the back up of those on the receiving end.

Seriously, coming across all hurt by politicians, or other UK citizens, who are fed up hearing "we want or else," and are biting back... sympathy you won't get, but I'm more than happy to have a debate that recognises both sides of the argument without the "do it or else attitude" which appears from north of the border.
		
Click to expand...

Why indeed - but many Scots will and do - you'll soon discover that!  Have fun telling them to shut up.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyway.........here is some good news for Hobbit.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/junior-doctors-are-moving-to-scotland#.xpV61JlKW

Click to expand...

..and as my Mrs said  - if doctors quit, or move to Scotland and overseas we'll need loads more immigrant doctors to replace them.  You are doing really well Mr Hunt - though in truth you are really just PRDave's patsy.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and as my Mrs said  - if doctors quit, or move to Scotland and overseas we'll need loads more immigrant doctors to replace them.  You are doing really well Mr Hunt - though in truth you are really just PRDave's patsy.
		
Click to expand...

"One medic predicted" 

A whole story based on the prediction of one junior doctor 

That couldn't more clutching at straws


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

Someone in a pub told me that many of the Syrian refugees were Doctors, health care staff and teachers.
If so, Scotland welcomes you it is a totally Hunt free envoirnment.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"One medic predicted" 

A whole story based on the prediction of one junior doctor 

That couldn't more clutching at straws
		
Click to expand...

I also heard it on the BBC Scotland this morning......you can't a more balanced view than that.






......or can you:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why indeed - but many Scots will and do - you'll soon discover that!  Have fun telling them to shut up.
		
Click to expand...

So what will these Scots do about it?   Pray tell!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Someone in a pub told me that many of the Syrian refugees were Doctors, health care staff and teachers.
If so, Scotland welcomes you it is a totally Hunt free envoirnment.
		
Click to expand...

And we know that you believe everything someone says down the pub!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And we know that you believe everything someone says down the pub!
		
Click to expand...

Irony overload


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and as my Mrs said  - if doctors quit, or move to Scotland and overseas we'll need loads more immigrant doctors to replace them.  You are doing really well Mr Hunt - though in truth you are really just PRDave's patsy.
		
Click to expand...

I have often wondered if Hunt has something bigger than 'piggy gate' on Cameron.
What else could explain how such a total numpty could hold a ministerial position.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And we know that you believe everything someone says down the pub!
		
Click to expand...

It's a step up from Wings


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"One medic predicted" 

A whole story based on the prediction of one junior doctor 

That couldn't more clutching at straws
		
Click to expand...

You want to speak with almost anyone in the NHS these days and they'll tell you they know plenty looking to get out - and they might well include themselves in that group.  It's not 'one medic'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So what will these Scots do about it?   Pray tell!
		
Click to expand...

Well in fact they can do nothing.  So why wind them up and make them even more angry.  There is always secession from the union - but in truth I'm guessing that that's very unlikely and  would be incredibly difficult and damaging.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in fact they can do nothing.  *So why wind them up and make them even more angry*.  There is always secession from the union - but in truth I'm guessing that that's very unlikely and  would be incredibly difficult and damaging.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting statement


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Interesting statement
		
Click to expand...

Didn know they were all reading this


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's a step up from Wings
		
Click to expand...

Irony overload 2

It was actually a TV news item a couple of days ago but I thought 'a man in the pub' would draw out the 'usual suspects'. 
And it did.:lol:


----------



## delc (Feb 11, 2016)

Isn't the fact that the Daily Mail clearly wants us the leave the EU a good enough reason to vote to stay in?  :mmm:


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2016)

delc said:



			Isn't the fact that the Daily Mail clearly wants us the leave the EU a good enough reason to vote to stay in?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Isn't the fact that David Cameron clearly wants us to stay in the EU a good enough reason to vote to leave?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why indeed - but many Scots will and do - you'll soon discover that!  Have fun telling them to shut up.
		
Click to expand...

I've not once said shut up, and did in fact say "happy to debate." However, I note you've now moved on to your usual rant about the NHS. Let's be honest here, for once, and admit you are a dyed in the wool anti-Tory who would say black is white rather than have a balanced debate. 

if you and I sat down over a beer to discuss the whole issue you might just find we are closer in our opinions than you think, assuming you shut up long enough to listen.


----------



## Fish (Feb 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I've not once said shut up, and did in fact say "happy to debate." However, I note you've now moved on to your usual rant about the NHS. Let's be honest here, for once, and admit you are a dyed in the wool anti-Tory who would say black is white rather than have a balanced debate. 

if you and I sat down over a beer to discuss the whole issue you might just find we are closer in our opinions than you think, assuming you shut up long enough to listen.
		
Click to expand...

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

&#128077;


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 12, 2016)

delc said:



			Isn't the fact that the Daily Mail clearly wants us the leave the EU a good enough reason to vote to stay in?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...




ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the fact that David Cameron clearly wants us to stay in the EU a good enough reason to vote to leave?
		
Click to expand...

This is possibly why many are confused about what to do...

Their daily read says out is good....
But, the leader of the pack says voting out is good but actually leaving will be bad...

Dave just wants a bit more leverage to enable him to get a better deal for his mates in business...
Who are off if we leave [apparently]..

Dave, despite what he keeps telling us. does not care two hoots about hard working folk...
Otherwise, why is he holding the proverbial gun against the head of our hard working junior doctors...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2016)

Boils down to the question......who do you trust to tell you the truth about the EU.....David Cameron or Nigel Farage.

Simple answer for me to compute.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boils down to the question......who do you trust to tell you the truth about the EU.....David Cameron or Nigel Farage.

Simple answer for me to compute.
		
Click to expand...


Depends on what you want the truth to be...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boils down to the question......who do you trust to tell you the truth about the EU.....David Cameron or Nigel Farage.

Simple answer for me to compute.
		
Click to expand...

Farage  seemed to be making the most sense on QT last night.   Most of the points expressed by people to STAY were very garbled and playing on the tactics of fear.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you obviously feel that for you the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the negatives. What are the benefits you see and what, if any, negatives? 

That question is open to all those that will be voting to stay in, not just Delc.
		
Click to expand...

I posed this question a couple of pages back but didn't get an answer from any of those that will be voting to stay in the EU so thought I post it again in the hope that it doesn't get lost in yet another flurry of posts about Scottish independence.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I posed this question a couple of pages back but didn't get an answer from any of those that will be voting to stay in the EU so thought I post it again in the hope that it doesn't get lost in yet another flurry of posts about Scottish independence.
		
Click to expand...

Cheaper imports; Cheaper - therefore more - exports, meaning more employment, so a better economy. More global influence, via a larger organisation that UK has significant influence in, as opposed to a single relatively small other voice. Less bureaucracy overall as many/most of the shared bureaucratic functions that EU provide would need to be duplicated by UK, or added to the existing Civil Service functions. 

Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't 'wastage' within the EU!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2016)

Why are our imports and exports cheaper by being in the EU? If we left and had a trade agreement surely with the amount we import we would be in a strong position to negotiate a good deal due to the quantity of goods we buy from the EU.

Wouldn't our influence from being members of NATO and the G7 be greater than from simply being an EU member?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why are our imports and exports cheaper by being in the EU? If we left and had a trade agreement surely with the amount we import we would be in a strong position to negotiate a good deal due to the quantity of goods we buy from the EU.



Wouldn't our influence from being members of NATO and the G7 be greater than from simply being an EU member?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.

The fact that we import more than we export to the EU seems to keep falling on deaf ears.  It would not be in the interest of the EU to set up trade barriers with the UK.  Oh no!   We would also have a whole bunch of money that we currently post off to the EU to spend on our own projects.   The 'out' benefits go on and on

IMO our influence in the World (If we want any that is) is watered down significantly by being one of the EU 28 and the 27 tend to have different opinions to us on most issues.  Our influence as you say is mainly through NATO and coalitions with countries like the USA.   How on earth do countries like Australia manage to get by!


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2016)

Forgot to mention the effect of the multinationals that are only in UK because it is part of Europe! Their contribution to the UK economy is pretty significant, as is the potential loss of London as the major centre for Financial Services!

I've already shown that simply using import vs export figures is folly. But, in doing so, you seem to be suggesting that is good to be forever spending more than we earn! Are you really promoting that?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Forgot to mention the effect of the multinationals that are only in UK because it is part of Europe! Their contribution to the UK economy is pretty significant, as is the potential loss of London as the major centre for Financial Services!

I've already shown that simply using import vs export figures is folly. But, in doing so, you seem to be suggesting that is good to be forever spending more than we earn! Are you really promoting that?
		
Click to expand...

Regarding the Multinationals.  I am not convinced that there would be any significant change after a Brexit and why do you believe London will lose the Financial Service industry, it has little to do with us being in the EU and is more to do with the Expertise in that sector, much like many other businesses.

Regarding us spending more than we earn!  We already do that in the EU so surely staying in will perpetuate that situation.  I cant understand why you ask me if I promote it.  I should be asking you on the basis of being in favour of us continuing with being a member of a club that we haemorrhage money to.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2016)

Which multinationals are only here because we are part of the EU? I would agree that with the reliance of our economy on the financial services industry that loss would be a major blow to the UK economy but I'm not yet convinced that it would up and move to Frankfurt or wherever else if we left. I'm sure that far cleverer minds than mine could come up with some sort of incentive that would encourage them to stay in London if we weren't part of the EU and could work out our own inducements that wouldn't necessarily have to follow EU rules/legislation.

I'm not suggesting that spending more than we earn is a good idea, far from it, but my point was more that the EU wouldn't suddenly decide to stop trading with us if we left as they get more income from us than we get from them.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2016)

And I'd like to add that it makes a nice change to be having a sensible and rational conversation/debate on this without it descending into the usual name calling and petty insults that seems to happen all too often on here.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And I'd like to add that it makes a nice change to be having a sensible and rational conversation/debate on this without it descending into the usual name calling and petty insults that seems to happen all too often on here.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.  Well other than pointing out those in favour of a 'Stay' vote tend to be Yoghurt knitting, Yurt dwelling Codpiece faces


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Couldn't agree more.  Well other than pointing out those in favour of a 'Stay' vote tend to be Yoghurt knitting, Yurt dwelling Codpiece faces 

Click to expand...


I'd just like to point out that those of us on the left of the left were against jointing in the first place...
But, I am sure you knew that already...

And, I am fairly confident the current leader of the pack [Jezza] remains unconvinced there's any real benefit in membership...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I posed this question a couple of pages back but didn't get an answer from any of those that will be voting to stay in the EU so thought I post it again in the hope that it doesn't get lost in yet another flurry of posts about Scottish independence.
		
Click to expand...

You did, but you did not like the replies.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You did, but you did not like the replies.
		
Click to expand...

Once more you post just to get a reaction. Have you actually looked at the posts after I put that question there? It immediately went off onto a discussion about the Scottish and then junior doctors. Until Foxholer posted above there wasn't a single reply so there was nothing to like or dislike. I would suggest that you stop trolling for a reaction especially n this case where it is easy for anyone to re-read the previous posts and see straight through your pathetic response. 

Not that it is unexpected that you refused to answer as you have history of avoiding answering questions you don't like. And as I posted above it WAS nice to be having a normal discussion about something without the petty insults/name calling etc but I suppose that now you are back involved it will quickly go back to the usual question avoidance and semantic arguments.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Farage  seemed to be making the most sense on QT last night.   Most of the points expressed by people to STAY were very garbled and playing on the tactics of fear.
		
Click to expand...

It seems that no matter the words a STAY campaigner uses to extoll a benefit from being in the EU, a LEAVE campaigner portrays that as STAY playing on fears of losing that benefit by adding 'and you say we might lose that benefit if we leave'.  When in fact all the STAY campaigner may be saying is 'look at this benefit'.  Indeed it seems that the FEAR campaign is something that LEAVE are talking up.  And so while it seems a bit-counter intuitive, I think STAY should almost completely avoid talking about 'losing' anything - just talk of the benefits and let LEAVE come up wit their counter-benefits

And as far as Farage is concerned - well he was very disingenuous on LBC last night.  Letting one LEAVE supporter after another talk rubbish/fantasy about the EU and how England would be after leaving.  Some complete barmy madness underpinning the leave arguments of many LEAVE supporters calling in - and Farage did little to counter what they were saying - even although he must have known they were talking complete rubbish.  He clearly doesn't care what reasons individuals give if they are to vote LEAVE


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Couldn't agree more.  Well other than pointing out those in favour of a 'Stay' vote tend to be Yoghurt knitting, Yurt dwelling Codpiece faces 

Click to expand...

Au contraire.  I work for a global company with several offices in many countries.  And the fact that the UK is in the EU is *one* reason why we have a UK office.  Companies want easy access to the UK market and also the EU market.  I am not saying that if we were not in the EU the company would close the UK office down straight away and move it to Madrid. Or that my company and many others do not want access to the UK market. 

But all companies want to minimise risk, hassle and expense. They like things to be as simple as possible and as predictable as possible. A lot of companies trade globally nowadays, they can locate where ever they want we need to ensure that the UK remains the most attractive proposition for them in order to ensure our children and our children's children have a sustainable economic future. And for me, based on what I have heard from my company and other business leaders, the benefits of staying in the EU outweigh the down sides.  Of which I admit there are many.  No one I suspect wants unfettered immigration, and we do need to keep trying to control it and ensure we have the infrastructure to support immigrants.

But I would much rather there be a sound economic argument from both sides on why we need to stay in as as various US presidents have said 'it's the ecomony stupid' . And if people listen to that and then vote to leave then fair enough.  What worries me is that the agenda is to focused on immigration and fear mongering around this subject.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It seems that no matter the words a STAY campaigner uses to extoll a benefit from being in the EU, a LEAVE campaigner portrays that as STAY playing on fears of losing that benefit by adding 'and you say we might lose that benefit if we leave'.  When in fact all the STAY campaigner may be saying is 'look at this benefit'.  Indeed it seems that the FEAR campaign is something that LEAVE are talking up.  And so while it seems a bit-counter intuitive, I think STAY should almost completely avoid talking about 'losing' anything - just talk of the benefits and let LEAVE come up wit their counter-benefits

And as far as Farage is concerned - well he was very disingenuous on LBC last night.  Letting one LEAVE supporter after another talk rubbish about the EU and how England would be after leaving.  Some complete madness underpinning the leave arguments of most LEAVE supporters calling in - and Farage did little to counter what they were saying - even although he must have known they were talking complete rubbish.  He clearly doesn't care what reasons individuals give if they are to vote LEAVE
		
Click to expand...

Are you putting stay and leave in capitals as some kind of subliminal suggestion process in a Derren Brown way?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

The thing is that it is easy for the leave campaign to turn any benefit from being in the EU into a scare story from the stay campaign. For it to be a benefit of being in the EU it must by definition be something we would lose were we to leave as otherwise it couldn't be classed as a benefit of membership. 

I don't agree with the tactic as I think that the leave campaign would be better off using a more positive campaign rather than focussing on the negatives of being in the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The thing is that it is easy for the leave campaign to turn any benefit from being in the EU into a scare story from the stay campaign. For it to be a benefit of being in the EU it must by definition be something we would lose were we to leave as otherwise it couldn't be classed as a benefit of membership. 

I don't agree with the tactic as I think that the leave campaign would be better off using a more positive campaign rather than focussing on the negatives of being in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

But I doubt it will happen - would be great though.  And the reason I think they won't is that most benefits of leaving are only hoped for or predicted.  There is not a lot Leave (I'll drop the CAPS) campaign can say for 100% certain other than the UK won't be in the EU.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

I would have thought that the benefits of staying in the EU were blindingly obvious to anyone living in Scotland.
If I lived in Essex or Kent I would probably have a different view.
The people who live in Essex and Kent have as much right to air their thoughts on The EU referendum as the people who live in Scotland.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

And once again you fail or refuse to answer the question. For those of us that don't live in Scotland what are the blindingly obvious reasons that the Scots would see as a reason for staying in the EU?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would have thought that the benefits of staying in the EU were blindingly obvious to anyone living in Scotland.
If I lived in Essex or Kent I would probably have a different view.
The people who live in Essex and Kent have as much right to air their thoughts on The EU referendum as the people who live in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

I'm unsure of the benefits of leaving or staying so can you enlighten me on the "blindingly obvious " please


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm unsure of the benefits of leaving or staying so can you enlighten me on the "blindingly obvious " please
		
Click to expand...

Probably something to do with Scottish Independence but I also wait with baited breath to be enlightened.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Au contraire.  I work for a global company with several offices in many countries.  And the fact that the UK is in the EU is *one* reason why we have a UK office.  Companies want easy access to the UK market and also the EU market.  I am not saying that if we were not in the EU the company would close the UK office down straight away and move it to Madrid. Or that my company and many others do not want access to the UK market. 

But all companies want to minimise risk, hassle and expense. They like things to be as simple as possible and as predictable as possible. A lot of companies trade globally nowadays, they can locate where ever they want we need to ensure that the UK remains the most attractive proposition for them in order to ensure our children and our children's children have a sustainable economic future. And for me, based on what I have heard from my company and other business leaders, the benefits of staying in the EU outweigh the down sides.  Of which I admit there are many.  No one I suspect wants unfettered immigration, and we do need to keep trying to control it and ensure we have the infrastructure to support immigrants.

But I would much rather there be a sound economic argument from both sides on why we need to stay in as as various US presidents have said 'it's the ecomony stupid' . And if people listen to that and then vote to leave then fair enough.  What worries me is that the agenda is to focused on immigration and fear mongering around this subject.
		
Click to expand...

Au Contraire what?  Not a Yoghurt Knitting, Yurt Dwelling Codpiece Face. I'll let you into a confidence, I didn't really think you were that, well! not all of them anyway


----------



## drdel (Feb 13, 2016)

Many who worry about multi-national companies vacating the UK shore seem to have forgotten there's free trade agreement that pre-dated the UK's joining. It doesn't require EU membership other nations enjoy the same status.

What the EU needs to learn is that an imbalance in trade means the exporter (say mainly Germany) sucks currency from the importers (mainly southern EU members). This has caused the financial challenge that the ECB is trying to rectify by printing money at an amazing level. This has just kicked the can down the road and the Eurozone countries will eventually wake up the to debt imbalance this has caused.  

Without addressing this inevitable economic issue demands from members to prop up the EU's budget with be made across all 28. The UK needs to maintain its autonomy otherwise our contribution will rise disproportionally and our economy will suffer.

IF there isn't fundamental reforms the EU's economy will suffer so the UK is, under the present terms, best not to be in the Eurozone and thus it is probably prudent to come out of the EU and continue with the EFTA.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding the Multinationals.  I am not convinced that there would be any significant change after a Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Then just wait until the 'Stay' campaign get the heads of such companies to say they 'would have to consider their positions' for both existing and new developments! It's not too dis-similar from the situation that Banks and other organisations were in with the Scottish indy issue. I'm also not totally convinced that a Brexit would automatically necessitate a move, but it would certainly be an argument used by governments in their negotiations with the MNs about where to site new developments! It would certainly mean that some sort of FTA - like the original EEC was - would need to be established. Most likely, that would be simplest through EFTA, but successful application for entry into that organisation isn't guaranteed!



SocketRocket said:



			why do you believe London will lose the Financial Service industry, it has little to do with us being in the EU and is more to do with the Expertise in that sector, much like many other businesses.
		
Click to expand...

Frankfurt has lusted after London's huge FS industry for years! This would be another, more compelling, argument for them to become the 'centre' for EU FS! With so much of UK's economy dependent on that area, any significant movement of that sector would be disastrous!



SocketRocket said:



			Regarding us spending more than we earn!  We already do that in the EU so surely staying in will perpetuate that situation.  I cant understand why you ask me if I promote it.  I should be asking you on the basis of being in favour of us continuing with being a member of a club that we haemorrhage money to.
		
Click to expand...

Well deflected! :rofl: It's part of the 'renegotiation' role to obtain better value for money from the contributions being made! 

Indeed, the method of funding/contributions/benefits is one of the things that should be on the agenda for renegotiation imo! It shouldn't simply be a case of those countries with better performing economies funding those with poorer performing ones as there's less incentive to take the pain required to turn low performing ones around!

It's up to the 'Stay' bunch to get the message across that much of the contribution returns and that vfm is being obtained! George didn't help that with his 'surprise' at the Â£800m bill he 'didn't know about' last year!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And once again you fail or refuse to answer the question. For those of us that don't live in Scotland what are the blindingly obvious reasons that the Scots would see as a reason for staying in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

The obvious ones are keeping the UK united, human rights and trade union legislation.
Fringe benefits are fishery and agriculture funding. 
Transport funding for lowly populated areas.

Others are centralised thinking for  defense, finance, manufacturing and open borders.

I would imagine that the Essex/Kent region will have the same lists as a reason for leaving.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2016)

drdel said:



			Many who worry about multi-national companies vacating the UK shore seem to have forgotten there's free trade agreement that pre-dated the UK's joining. It doesn't require EU membership other nations enjoy the same status.
...
IF there isn't fundamental reforms the EU's economy will suffer so the UK is, under the present terms, best not to be in the Eurozone and thus it is probably prudent to come out of the EU and *continue with the EFTA*.
		
Click to expand...

UK isn't a member of EFTA! Membership isn't guaranteed, but would be the logical step!

That 'fundamental reform' is, supposedly, what DC is negotiating!



drdel said:



			What the EU needs to learn is that an imbalance in trade means the exporter (say mainly Germany) sucks currency from the importers (mainly southern EU members). This has caused the financial challenge that the ECB is trying to rectify by printing money at an amazing level. This has just kicked the can down the road and the Eurozone countries will eventually wake up the to debt imbalance this has caused.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe it's the trade imbalances that (alone) have caused the problems and the 'QE' that the ECB is doing! It's the overall economies of several/many of the 28 that are causing the problems - and the simple fact that there are 28 imo! Much of the action is still being taken as a result of the fallout from the 2008 Financial slump imo!

And most, if not all, EU countries, including UK, France and Germany, have been 'breaking the' EU economic rules for some time now! So either the rules need to be adjusted (flattened to allow for spikes) or some sort of sanction needs to be applied to the 'offenders' - that acts as an incentive rather than simply adding to the burden! The simple fact that UK tends to have a different (earlier) economic cycle than the rest of Europe doesn't help - and is actually an argument for Brexit imo!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably something to do with Scottish Independence but I also wait with baited breath to be enlightened.
		
Click to expand...

As normal with SR......it is actually the complete opposite. :lol:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

Straw poll in a popular Scottish media outlet.

Stay in 87%
Out 13%

1200+ responses in 12 hours.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The obvious ones are keeping the UK united, human rights and trade union legislation.
Fringe benefits are fishery and agriculture funding. 
Transport funding for lowly populated areas.

Others are centralised thinking for  defense, finance, manufacturing and open borders.
		
Click to expand...

I don't see any of those things as overwhelming or compelling reasons to stay in the EU. None of those things would have to change if we left. 

It's very difficult to have a United UK while you and others that didn't get the result you wanted in the referendum keep going on about having another vote. It's a bit hypocritical from anyone on the side of Scottish independence to now talk about a United UK.

With the amount we pay in and the amount we get out we could still have fishery and agriculture funding and for transport for lowly populated areas. We'd remain in NATO and as a member of the G7 so we'd have centralised thinking on defence etc. And what does "open borders" actually mean? We have to show a passport to travel abroad from the UK and I can't imagine border posts springing up between EU countries just to check UK passports so what would actually change?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As normal with SR......it is actually the complete opposite. :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Can you please answer my question

I'm unsure on the pro and cons of staying or leaving etc

So can you state the "blindingly obvious" reasons to stay


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

How about #392:lol:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about #392:lol:
		
Click to expand...

None of what you posted is "blindingly obvious"

The U.K. will still be united if the UK voted to leave the EU

Human rights etc legislation wouldn't be harmed 

We might even have better benefits on fishery and agricultural due to not piling in massive amounts of money into EU and getting less out - so that money can be used for subsidiary's to those areas 

Centralised thinking ?!! What the heck is that supposed to mean 

Defence - well still part of NATO

Finance and Manufacturing we can think for ourselves 

And open borders ?! I have to show my passport leaving and entering the UK anyway

So any actual "blindingly obvious" reasons ?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't see any of those things as overwhelming or compelling reasons to stay in the EU. None of those things would have to change if we left. 

It's very difficult to have a United UK while you and others that didn't get the result you wanted in the referendum keep going on about having another vote. It's a bit hypocritical from anyone on the side of Scottish independence to now talk about a United UK.

With the amount we pay in and the amount we get out we could still have fishery and agriculture funding and for transport for lowly populated areas. We'd remain in NATO and as a member of the G7 so we'd have centralised thinking on defence etc. And what does "open borders" actually mean? We have to show a passport to travel abroad from the UK and I can't imagine border posts springing up between EU countries just to check UK passports so what would actually change?
		
Click to expand...

Jings.............................HOW MANY TIMES must I say that I am not overly keen on independence.
If there was a devo max option I would have voted for that but as I had a postal vote I was unable to choose that option.
As most Scots I am keen to see the UK prime minister honour his Vow to Scotland.

Can we please get back to the OP now and stop this constant referral to Scottish Independence on this thread.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			None of what you posted is "blindingly obvious"

*The U.K. will still be united if the UK voted to leave the EU
*
Human rights etc legislation wouldn't be harmed 

We might even have better benefits on fishery and agricultural due to not piling in massive amounts of money into EU and getting less out - so that money can be used for subsidiary's to those areas 

Centralised thinking ?!! What the heck is that supposed to mean 

Defence - well still part of NATO

Finance and Manufacturing we can think for ourselves 

And open borders ?! I have to show my passport leaving and entering the UK anyway

So any actual "blindingly obvious" reasons ?
		
Click to expand...

For the time being - but a Leave voter is without any doubt going to put the United bit of the UK at risk.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For the time being - but a Leave voter is without any doubt going to put the United bit of the UK at risk.
		
Click to expand...

Please explain why?    Surely you are not still suggesting that the Scots will get all maudlin if they don't get their own way?  Or should I say the way of the minority.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For the time being - but a Leave voter is without any doubt going to put the United bit of the UK at risk.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but why ?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but why ?
		
Click to expand...

Because the SNP have very cleverly turned it into its not good for Scotland, we'll have another referendum.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Because the SNP have very cleverly turned it into its not good for Scotland, we'll have another referendum.
		
Click to expand...

But the SNP don't have that power though - it's up to the ruling government - I expect they can shout and scream as much as they want but can't see another referendum for 30-40 years maybe longer - had their chance and made their choice. Guess it's time for them to shut up about it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

I think they are just supporting the wishes of a large majority of their Scottish citizens to remain in the EU. Nothing clever about that.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the SNP don't have that power though - it's up to the ruling government - I expect they can shout and scream as much as they want but can't see another referendum for 30-40 years maybe longer - had their chance and made their choice. Guess it's time for them to shut up about it.
		
Click to expand...

i think the Cons will be happy to see another referendum and for Scotland to leave. Who would support the lame duck Labour Party, giving them half a chance of derailing Con policies if the SNP were no longer part of Westminister?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

The more I hear from EU politicians saying that they want the UK to vote to stay in the more convinced I become that we should leave. I don't believe they want us to stay because it is good for us but more that it's good for them and they would have a large funding gap to fill if we left.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			i think the Cons will be happy to see another referendum and for Scotland to leave. Who would support the lame duck Labour Party, giving them half a chance of derailing Con policies if the SNP were no longer part of Westminister?
		
Click to expand...


I have a sneaky idea that this is Cameron's end game, if it truly is he is playing a blinder.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The more I hear from EU politicians saying that they want the UK to vote to stay in the more convinced I become that we should leave. I don't believe they want us to stay because it is good for us but more that it's good for them and they would have a large funding gap to fill if we left.
		
Click to expand...

ANY departure (even Greece's!) would diminish the 'collective' nature of the Union! UK's would be a considerable loss, not only for the financial contribution UK makes, significantly less 'Nett' than the 'Gross' figure UKIP stated in any case. but also because the 'we speak for the whole of the EU' statement would be diminished.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 13, 2016)

Net contribution in 2014 of Â£11.4 billion which is 4 times what it was in 2008. Think we could probably manage to spend that ourselves and put it to good use. Would reverse all of the cuts that are currently being and have already been implemented.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/britain-eu-contribution-rise-quadruple-cameron


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Net contribution in 2014 of Â£11.4 billion which is 4 times what it was in 2008. Think we could probably manage to spend that ourselves and put it to good use. Would reverse all of the cuts that are currently being and have already been implemented.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/britain-eu-contribution-rise-quadruple-cameron

Click to expand...

Apparently Â£8billion would cover the funding gap in the NHS. Imagine all the ills of the NHS covered in one hit!


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The obvious ones are keeping the UK united, human rights and trade union legislation.
Fringe benefits are fishery and agriculture funding. 
Transport funding for lowly populated areas.
		
Click to expand...


Believe the UK has a good record with regard 'human rights'... 
Not perfect but suspect no country is with regard this...

Not sure what you mean with regard "trade union legislation"...

Folk I've spoken to when visiting Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth are less than complimentary about EU and fishing policy....
Friends in farming tell me the landed gentry hoover up about half of the EU agriculture subsidies... As if they haven't enough already....

Not sure about transport funding...
But a recent slot on Countryfile gave the impression it's of no help...


----------



## PieMan (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Folk I've spoken to when visiting Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth are less than complimentary about EU and fishing policy.... QUOTE]

EU fishing policy is a joke, and as for EU funding for fisheries, the UK received roughly 243m euros for the period 2014-2020. Of that England and Scotland shared around 80% with Wales and NI sharing the rest. Interestingly Spain received just over 1bn euros, roughly 25% of the total EU fisheries funding. Given that, who do you think had the most inspections by EU auditors to ensure all the money was being spent correctly under the previous funding programme? If you think Spain you'd be wrong!

As I said in an earlier post, my jobs means I spend a lot of time in Brussels negotiating policy with the EU Commission and our European 'friends' in other Member States. Given my first-hand experiences ('simplification' is a word the Commission has no idea the meaning of) I'll be voting out.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe the UK has a good record with regard 'human rights'... 
Not perfect but suspect no country is with regard this...

Not sure what you mean with regard "trade union legislation"...

Folk I've spoken to when visiting Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth are less than complimentary about EU and fishing policy....
Friends in farming tell me the landed gentry hoover up about half of the EU agriculture subsidies... As if they haven't enough already....

Not sure about transport funding...
But a recent slot on Countryfile gave the impression it's of no help...
		
Click to expand...

My reply was regarding Scotland
Tories are watering down UK human rights and trades union legislation [a sop to the ukippers]
Scotland is already changing the way large sporting estates avoid paying land taxes. Most Scottish farms are small and the EU funding is a lifeline.
Scotland has historically lost out to rUK on EU fishing quotas, after much protest, that has been made fairer in recent years.

Transport was not about 'busses', more about EU grants to support better air, road and rail links. [A9, Borders railway, Skye bridge, third Forth bridge good examples.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Apparently Â£8billion would cover the funding gap in the NHS. Imagine all the ills of the NHS covered in one hit!
		
Click to expand...

It's not all about money and immigration you know.

Yet more deflection and avoidance from the Leave camp yesterday.

Bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui give good positive benefits of EU membership: very much cheaper flights, wide selection of destination etc (easyJet); excellent coordination of security investigations etc such as following the Tunisia massacre (Thompson/Tui).  

Leave say 'scaremongering'.  Is that all Leave can say when benefits are highlighted? - it seems so.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My reply was regarding Scotland
Tories are watering down UK human rights and trades union legislation [a sop to the ukippers]
Scotland is already changing the way large sporting estates avoid paying land taxes. Most Scottish farms are small and the EU funding is a lifeline.
Scotland has historically lost out to rUK on EU fishing quotas, after much protest, that has been made fairer in recent years.

Transport was not about 'busses', more about EU grants to support better air, road and rail links. [A9, Borders railway, Skye bridge, third Forth bridge good examples.
		
Click to expand...

But the debate is about the UK staying or leaving the EU, not just Scotland.   Try taking a Federal view and how the decision would affect the UK, for crying out loud it's not a England verses Scotland matter.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My reply was regarding Scotland
Tories are watering down UK human rights and trades union legislation [a sop to the ukippers]
Scotland is already changing the way large sporting estates avoid paying land taxes. Most Scottish farms are small and the EU funding is a lifeline.
Scotland has historically lost out to rUK on EU fishing quotas, after much protest, that has been made fairer in recent years.

Transport was not about 'busses', more about EU grants to support better air, road and rail links. [A9, Borders railway, Skye bridge, third Forth bridge good examples.
		
Click to expand...


Diminishing Trade Union 'rights' are at the top of Dave's shopping list of concessions from the EU and generally reckoned he'll get them...
So, as usual with the EU, of no help to the working man... As long as 'big business' is kept sweet....

And, you are not fussed that Europe is urinating on the UK fishing 'industry' as long as Scotland gets its 'fair share'...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not all about money and immigration you know.

Yet more deflection and avoidance from the Leave camp yesterday.

Bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui give good positive benefits of EU membership: very much cheaper flights, wide selection of destination etc (easyJet); excellent coordination of security investigations etc such as following the Tunisia massacre (Thompson/Tui).  

Leave say 'scaremongering'.  Is that all Leave can say when benefits are highlighted? - it seems so.
		
Click to expand...

Why should flights be cheaper if we are in the EU as opposed to out? And why would the number of destinations be reduced? Surely the routes are already there as are the planes. Don't see why the price would rise dramatically after a leave vote. 

Maybe it could be seen as a positive for the leave campaign as well. Less people flying abroad means less pollution from aircraft and more people holidaying at home would boost the UK economy as well.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Diminishing Trade Union 'rights' are at the top of Dave's shopping list of concessions from the EU and generally reckoned he'll get them...
So, as usual with the EU, of no help to the working man... As long as 'big business' is kept sweet....

And, you are not fussed that Europe is urinating on the UK fishing 'industry' as long as Scotland gets its 'fair share'...
		
Click to expand...

I believe the fishing quota's are awarded to the country [UK] so it would be Westminster and not the EU doing the peeing. [after the EU has done the original peeing of course]:lol:


----------



## PieMan (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I believe the fishing quota's are awarded to the country [UK] so it would be Westminster and not the EU doing the peeing. [after the EU has done the original peeing of course]:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Fishing quotas are indeed awarded to the UK as the Member State, but each UK administration receives an annually agreed share of the UK quotas for distribution to their respective fleet. So it's up to the Scottish Government to determine how its annual fishing opportunities are allocated and managed. Fishing is one area where all four UK administrations actually work very well together on and would probably benefit from a Brexit (i.e. taking control of our own fishing policy and territorial waters).


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



*Why should flights be cheaper if we are in the EU as opposed to out? And why would the number of destinations be reduced? Surely the routes are already there as are the planes. Don't see why the price would rise dramatically after a leave vote. *

Maybe it could be seen as a positive for the leave campaign as well. Less people flying abroad means less pollution from aircraft and more people holidaying at home would boost the UK economy as well.
		
Click to expand...

Because the boss of easyJet said so!  

But of course she would say that (Leave deflection tactic #2)

And I look forward to Leave campaign highlighting the benefit of fewer and more expensive flights.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the boss of easyJet said so!  

But of course she would say that (Leave deflection tactic #2)

And I look forward to Leave campaign highlighting the benefit of fewer and more expensive flights.
		
Click to expand...

Does the boss of easy jet have Crystall ball ? 

How does he or indeed anyone know exactly how things will be after a vote ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Married 40 yr old has a mid-life crisis.   

The Mrs is not looking quite as good as she did 15yrs ago when they met; sheâ€™s grumpy with him much of the time, and he doesnâ€™t go much for what sheâ€™s doing with the kids.  What with two hard-work young toddlers and a truculent and out of control 15yr old - she lets them get away with too much and they are really hard work.    And the great sex-life?  Whatâ€™s happened to that?  Heâ€™s too fit, virile and good-looking to be stuck in the straightjacket and difficulties of family life and wants out - he wants to live the life of a batchelor again.  And so files for divorce. 

And so the spurned wife â€“ left to deal with the young children and the teenager, she really doesnâ€™t want him to go even although heâ€™s not been a lot of help over the last few, and too often finds himself having to stay up in London â€˜due to having to work late or go out with customersâ€™.  Ah yes â€“ that old chestnut she thinks.  But she wants them to stay together so can put up with his moans and will turn a bit of a blind eye to other matters.

But he wants out.  Itâ€™s just not working for him any more.  Well she knows she canâ€™t stop him leaving â€“ but does try and encourage him to stay - look at what you are giving up she pleads.  But no.

And so â€“ what does she do.  Does she bow to his every request for access to the children? Does she waiver all claims to half of all that is jointly theirs.  No - she is frustrated and angry - and determines to extract every last penny she can out of him - now on the separation â€“ even although she knows it will cause him real problem financial problems â€“ and on an ongoing basis â€“ house; alimony payments; maintenance; school fees; holidays etc. 

Yes â€“ he can leave if that is what he wants â€“ but as this is going to hurt her and the children for many years then by God she is going to make sure this separation will hurt him and he is going to pay â€“ now and for a long time.  And no easy access to her or the kids - for anything - unless they pay.

And I think Phillip Hammond on the Andrew Marr program yesterday tried to make that clear.

rEU bend over backwards to accommodate all the wishes of a UK that has left?  What with Marine Le Pen making similar leave noises in France - rEU do all it can to make UK relationships with them remain pretty much as they currently are?  I absolutely don't think so.   But Leave are telling us they will.  Oh how optimistic/deluded they might well be.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I look forward to Leave campaign highlighting the benefit of fewer and more expensive flights.
		
Click to expand...


No need for a third runway.... 
Will sound good for a lot of folk around Heathrow...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			No need for a third runway.... 
Will sound good for a lot of folk around Heathrow...
		
Click to expand...

Let's hear Leave sell it then


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2016)

Did the boss of Easyjet happen to mention why flights would become more expensive or just that they would? Maybe as part of leaving the EU we have to physically move the UK further away which means flights would be longer leading to higher fuel use.

And as for your marriage analogy at what point does the spurned wife realise that her unreasonable behaviour is costing her billions of pounds in lost trade and that maybe maintaining a cordial split would be best for her?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's hear Leave sell it then
		
Click to expand...


Sell what? Heathrow?


Cheap plentiful air passage ranks right up there as a non reason for EU membership...
Right alongside... You'll be able to continue driving around in your German made cars...

Can't see either changing with Brexit... Too much vested interest and potential profit to be lost...


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not all about money and immigration you know.

Yet more deflection and avoidance from the Leave camp yesterday.

Bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui give good positive benefits of EU membership: very much cheaper flights, wide selection of destination etc (easyJet); excellent coordination of security investigations etc such as following the Tunisia massacre (Thompson/Tui).  

Leave say 'scaremongering'.  Is that all Leave can say when benefits are highlighted? - it seems so.
		
Click to expand...

And several business leaders in Glasgow, one from the major oil companies, have said leave. I 'see' your sound bite and raise you another sound bite.

And where's the deflection in my post. We are a nett contributor to the tune of Â£11.4 billion, and the NHS has a funding gap of Â£8billion. Those are hard facts, not deflection. Oh, but wait! Its not about money says the man who often rants about the NHS! What is it then, fairy dust?

I've got a feeling planes fly to the USA, and elsewhere outside of the EU. I've just booked return flights to Amsterdam from Aberdeen Â£501. If I booked Glasgow to New York Â£424. Please let me stay in the EU so it costs more to fly less distance...

Hard facts (numbers) not hairy fairy wishes with a pinch of magic dust.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And several business leaders in Glasgow, one from the major oil companies, have said leave. I 'see' your sound bite and raise you another sound bite.

And where's the deflection in my post. We are a nett contributor to the tune of Â£11.4 billion, and the NHS has a funding gap of Â£8billion. Those are hard facts, not deflection. Oh, but wait! Its not about money says the man who often rants about the NHS! What is it then, fairy dust?

I've got a feeling planes fly to the USA, and elsewhere outside of the EU. I've just booked return flights to Amsterdam from Aberdeen Â£501. If I booked Glasgow to New York Â£424. Please let me stay in the EU so it costs more to fly less distance...

Hard facts (numbers) not hairy fairy wishes with a pinch of magic dust.
		
Click to expand...

OK - so we just dismiss what the bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui say - well I guess that makes Leaves job easy, just ignore everything Stay say - demanding evidence beyond what the bosses say about being fully aware of how things actually work.  Meanwhile Leave guess about how things 'might' work.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does the boss of easy jet have Crystall ball ? 

How does* he* or indeed anyone know exactly how things will be after a vote ?
		
Click to expand...

Tut tut!!

Very bad assumption!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



*Did the boss of Easyjet happen to mention why flights would become more expensive or just that they would*? Maybe as part of leaving the EU we have to physically move the UK further away which means flights would be longer leading to higher fuel use.

And as for your marriage analogy at what point does the spurned wife realise that her unreasonable behaviour is costing her billions of pounds in lost trade and that maybe maintaining a cordial split would be best for her?
		
Click to expand...

I think the gist was that being in the EU makes it a lot easier to run an airline, as being in the EU allows airlines to fly across Europe ad to lots of destinations relatively easily.  And if this was lost then the UK airlines would incur additional costs to continue their operations as they are, which would then be passed onto the customer leading to increased air fares and/or a reduction in destinations to fly to. There is then the knock on effect to the economy of potentially reduced and more expensive air fares in that people would not be able to move around so easily for business or on holidays, which will effect then  UK tourist industry which is over 10% of our economy. 2 of the biggest 5 airlines in Europe are UK listed as is Europe's largest travel operator.  She said how much you pay for your holiday really depends on how much influence Britain has in Europe.

There was also a point made by the boss of TUI about how being in the EU helps a lot when it comes to the security of holidaymakers as cooperation with other EU countries is vital in these situations.

Of course if you want to stay in this will all make sense and be a good point well made.  If you want to leave then it of course scaremongering of the highest order.  And I doubt anyone's views will have been changed by it in the slightest.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tut tut!!

Very bad assumption! 

Click to expand...

You telling me a boss of a company is actually is a boy without a winkle?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tut tut!!

Very bad assumption! 

Click to expand...

Yes it was


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the gist was that being in the EU makes it a lot easier to run an airline, as being in the EU allows airlines to fly across Europe ad to lots of destinations relatively easily.  And if this was lost then the UK airlines would incur additional costs to continue their operations as they are, which would then be passed onto the customer leading to increased air fares and/or a reduction in destinations to fly to. There is then the knock on effect to the economy of potentially reduced and more expensive air fares in that people would not be able to move around so easily for business or on holidays, which will effect then  UK tourist industry which is over 10% of our economy. 2 of the biggest 5 airlines in Europe are UK listed as Europe largest travel operator.  She said how much you pay for your holiday really depends on how much influence Britain has in Europe.

There was also a point made by the boss of TUI about how being in the EU helps a lot when it comes to the security of holidaymakers as cooperation with other EU countries is vital in these situations.

Of course if you want to stay in this will all make sense and be a good point well made.  If you want to leave then it of course scaremongering of the highest order.  And I doubt anyone's views will have been changed by it in the slightest.

Click to expand...

Thanks @HK - I was girding my loins to provide this rationale as provided by the bosses - but as you allude to, I was thinking 'oh why bother'


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			You telling me a boss of a company is actually is a boy without a winkle?

Click to expand...

Something like that!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the gist was that being in the EU makes it a lot easier to run an airline, as being in the EU allows airlines to fly across Europe ad to lots of destinations relatively easily.  And if this was lost then the UK airlines would incur additional costs to continue their operations as they are, which would then be passed onto the customer leading to increased air fares and/or a reduction in destinations to fly to. There is then the knock on effect to the economy of potentially reduced and more expensive air fares in that people would not be able to move around so easily for business or on holidays, which will effect then  UK tourist industry which is over 10% of our economy. 2 of the biggest 5 airlines in Europe are UK listed as is Europe's largest travel operator.  She said how much you pay for your holiday really depends on how much influence Britain has in Europe.

There was also a point made by the boss of TUI about how being in the EU helps a lot when it comes to the security of holidaymakers as cooperation with other EU countries is vital in these situations.

Of course if you want to stay in this will all make sense and be a good point well made.  If you want to leave then it of course scaremongering of the highest order.  And I doubt anyone's views will have been changed by it in the slightest.

Click to expand...

I don't understand why costs would rise. EU based airlines fly to non EU destinations every day and vice versa so it's not as if it's not already being done. A flight from Norway to Spain isn't more expensive than a flight from Sweden to Spain so why should it be more expensive for the UK?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't understand why costs would rise. EU based airlines fly to non EU destinations every day and vice versa so it's not as if it's not already being done. A flight from Norway to Spain isn't more expensive than a flight from Sweden to Spain so why should it be more expensive for the UK?
		
Click to expand...

Can't you just accept what the boss of the airline says?  That she knows what is best for her business - and what is best for her business is largely going to be driven by what her customers want.  Of course you don't understand - you are not the boss of an airline.

And of course then there are the bosses of other major companies saying that things will be OK or even better if UK leaves - and Leave campaigners seem willing to accept their word for it without question?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't understand why costs would rise. EU based airlines fly to non EU destinations every day and vice versa so it's not as if it's not already being done.* A flight from Norway to Spain isn't more expensive than a flight from Sweden to Spain so why should it be more expensive for the UK?*

Click to expand...

I am guessing she is looking at the whole of the airline industry and the costs associated with running one in the EU as opposed to one outside of the EU.  Not individual fares on isolated routes.  And airlines will only fly to routes if they are cost effective, and I imagine her argument is that whilst we are in EU it makes the routes the UK low cost and holiday carriers use a lot more cost effective.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Business does quite a bit of 'posturing' to get its way...

Witness HSBC getting its way just now...
We'll never know whether they ever intended to leave...
But they'll see it as job done and most probably use similar tactics in the future..

A lot of businesses threatened to leave on the back of our failure to join the Eurozone...
Well, they stayed... A bluff called... And, a good job to...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes it was
		
Click to expand...

Oh so you mean the "CEO" as opposed to the "Chairman" or the "Founder" but it still doesn't take away from the fact no one knows or has a crystal ball do they


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh so you mean the "CEO" as opposed to the "Chairman" or the "Founder" ...
		
Click to expand...

Predictably true to form! 

:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can't you just accept what the boss of the airline says?  That she knows what is best for her business - and what is best for her business is largely going to be driven by what her customers want.  Of course you don't understand - you are not the boss of an airline.

And of course then there are the bosses of other major companies saying that things will be OK or even better if UK leaves - and Leave campaigners seem willing to accept their word for it without question?
		
Click to expand...

What a ridiculously arrogant response. Are you such a sheep that you just accept what someone says without wanting to know the reasons? Of course you are because the statement suits your agenda so you are happy to blindly accept it without caring whether it is factual or not. 

And complaining about the leave campaign being willing to accept the word of bosses wanting to leave without questioning it and then doing exactly the same from the other side of the argument makes you a complete hypocrite.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

leavers going to want to leave, stayers going to want to stay, haters going to hate.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 15, 2016)

Still not convinced that I should vote out.
It would help if any Out supporters on here could supply a short list of their reasons why they want to leave the EU.
So far all they seem to be doing is throwing insults at the In's.

Slight feeling of Deja Vu, can't quite understand where it is coming from


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Why the heck whenever these political debates and votes happens do certain people like to put labels on things ?!

RUK and many others during the Scottish Ref and now 
"Leavers" in this current situation 

It always seem to be said in a demeaning way as if you have trodden in something


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			leavers going to want to leave, stayers going to want to stay, haters going to hate.
		
Click to expand...


I fully agree with two thirds of this....

However, I've never got my head around "haters going to hate"...
And, perhaps too long in the tooth to... Hey ho...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I fully agree with two thirds of this....

*However, I've never got my head around "haters going to hate"...*
And, perhaps too long in the tooth to... Hey ho...
		
Click to expand...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Haters+Gonna+Hate


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 15, 2016)

The main problem with the EU is all the squabbling from the countries' parliaments. We need a central European government that completely replaces national governments. The continent's resources can then be properly utilised for the benefit of us all without nationalistic bickering. Europe-wide elections for MEPs and a directly elected president. Maybe Angela Merkel or someone like that.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			The main problem with the EU is all the squabbling from the countries' parliaments. *We need a central European government that completely replaces national governments*. The continent's resources can then be properly utilised for the benefit of us all without nationalistic bickering. Europe-wide elections for MEPs and a directly elected president. Maybe Angela Merkel or someone like that.
		
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I don't want!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can't you just accept what the boss of the airline says?  That she knows what is best for her business - and what is best for her business is largely going to be driven by what her customers want.  Of course you don't understand - you are not the boss of an airline.?
		
Click to expand...

There are many business bosses who say we are better out. I suppose in your mind they are wrong.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would help if any Out supporters on here could supply a short list of their reasons why they want to leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...


Cos I never wanted to join in the first place...
It always looked like it was heading the way of becoming a club for the in crowd... A bit like the Masons...
If we were in, in the first place, it might've been different...
Johnny come latelys never quite seem to fit in...

Ashley and his ilk still prosper employing on zero hours...
And, folk still get touted around by gangmasters for way below anything resembling the minimum wage...

And, being in is supposed to be good for the worker... Yeh right!

Nothing has changed in the 40 years and all for Â£55M a flippin' day...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still not convinced that I should vote out.
It would help if any Out supporters on here could supply a short list of their reasons why they want to leave the EU.
So far all they seem to be doing is throwing insults at the In's.

Slight feeling of Deja Vu, can't quite understand where it is coming from

Click to expand...

It certainly is Deja Vu - lots of hot air and guesswork - same as another recent referendum 

Im still waiting though for your "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in that you mentioned a couple days back

But I'll give one reason leaving - the amount of money we put into the EU massively outweighs the benefits we see from the EU

We are subjected to the community rules on benefits we must give to someone arriving from an EU country. 

If another country suffers bankruptcy ala Greece then we have to give more money to bail them out - sorry but why should be punished because another country couldn't sort their own finances.


Just a few reasons I have heard from people who want the UK to leave 

Not heard many reasons to stay


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There are many business bosses who say we are better out. I suppose in your mind they are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I am guessing that a lot depends on where you main market/customer base is.  If it is predominantly UK based then I imagine there will be more chance of them wanting to get out as I imagine they get a lot of burdens without that many benefits.  Where as if they export a lot to Europe and even globally then I imagine they will be more inclined to want to stay in. And I expect neither are right or wrong. 

In fact I'd welcome a good economic argument/discussion by people wanting to leave as it will make a refreshing change to the focus on the immigration topic which I still say, in the grand scheme of things, is a minor consideration. Let's debate the economics of it all.

From my perspective both me and my wife work for global companies and also I see how a lot of our investments are influenced by European and global economies.  So that's why I'd rather stay in, economically it makes more sense to me for myself, my family, my company and the UK economy.  But more than happy to listen to any economic arguments otherwise.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What a ridiculously arrogant response. Are you such a sheep that you just accept what someone says without wanting to know the reasons? Of course you are because the statement suits your agenda so you are happy to blindly accept it without caring whether it is factual or not. 

And complaining about the leave campaign being willing to accept the word of bosses wanting to leave without questioning it and then doing exactly the same from the other side of the argument makes you a complete hypocrite.
		
Click to expand...

If it's arrogant I'm sorry - it's not meant to be - what's arrogant about wishing that you could accept the view of someone who you'd expect to know and who stands up and is clear on what she sees as important benefits.  What can the likes of that boss of easyJet say to convince you she might have a point - all I hear is the usual 'well she would say that' or 'prove it'.  The leave campaign can't prove she is wrong so why not just accept what she says.  

There are many counter statements extolling the benefits of leaving that Leave gobble up with glee - why not just accept there may be some benefits from staying - and that what the bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui are saying is true.

And I'd thank you if you'd just cut out the nasty comments about arrogance and my being a hypocrite - they are just not necessary.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Cos I never wanted to join in the first place...
It always looked like it was heading the way of becoming a club for the in crowd... A bit like the Masons...
If we were in, in the first place, it might've been different...
Johnny come latelys never quite seem to fit in...

*Ashley and his ilk still prosper employing on zero hours...
And, folk still get touted around by gangmasters for way below anything resembling the minimum wage...

And, being in is supposed to be good for the worker... Yeh right!*

Nothing has changed in the 40 years and all for Â£55M a flippin' day...
		
Click to expand...

But that is kind of saying just because the economic working conditions in this country are not 'perfect' then that is a reason to get out.  No one is condoning paying below the minimum wage or gangs exploiting workers, but I am struggling to see how that would have changed if we were out of the EU?  And there are not perfect economic working conditions anywhere in the world, in fact I'd argue the Germans are as close as you get nowadays, and you can't get more EU than them.

And I am pretty sure that hundreds of posts ago a businessman listed the benefits he and also UK workers had gained from being in the EU?


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			The main problem with the EU is all the squabbling from the countries' parliaments. We need a central European government that completely replaces national governments. The continent's resources can then be properly utilised for the benefit of us all without nationalistic bickering. Europe-wide elections for MEPs and a directly elected president. Maybe Angela Merkel or someone like that.
		
Click to expand...

H'mm. I don't believe anyone is really contemplating that, and don't think anyone would accept that approach either. While a fan of the concept of what the EU is about, I certainly wouldn't want to see the EU government replacing national ones! They are different countries for real reasons!

Only unify things that are sensible to unify and let member states run the rest! - the concepts of subsidiarity and proportionality.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There are many business bosses who say we are better out. I suppose in your mind they are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

No I'd don't think they are wrong.  it is their opinion and they know what they see as being best for themselves and their business.  I just don't go telling them to prove they would be better out because I know that they actually can't - and they can't because they do not know the commercial environment they will be operating in - they can only guess.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. I don't believe anyone is really contemplating that, and don't think anyone would accept that approach either. While a fan of the concept of what the EU is about, I certainly wouldn't want to see the EU government replacing national ones! They are different countries for real reasons!

Only unify things that are sensible to unify and let member states run the rest! - the concepts of subsidiarity and proportionality.
		
Click to expand...

We need to aim not just for a central european government but a one world government, foxy! Without that I don't see how we can ever aspire to a Roddenburyesque utopia. Dissenting voices like D4S need to be silenced for the good of all humanity!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am guessing that a lot depends on where you main market/customer base is.  If it is predominantly UK based then I imagine there will be more chance of them wanting to get out as I imagine they get a lot of burdens without that many benefits.  Where as if they export a lot to Europe and even globally then I imagine they will be more inclined to want to stay in. And I expect neither are right or wrong. 

In fact I'd welcome a good economic argument/discussion by people wanting to leave as it will make a refreshing change to the focus on the immigration topic which I still say, in the grand scheme of things, is a minor consideration. Let's debate the economics of it all.

From my perspective both me and my wife work for global companies and also I see how a lot of our investments are influenced by European and global economies.  So that's why I'd rather stay in, economically it makes more sense to me for myself, my family, my company and the UK economy.  But more than happy to listen to any economic arguments otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with all that you say, however as neither side (the ones who really know rather than us on a forum) seem to be able or willing to give out the real facts and costs the public will only be able to vote as per their perceptions. The costs of the EU have spiralled out of control, nobody came up with a proper reason why the EU needed two parliaments and why they have never been able to balance the books and have huge black holes in their accounts every year - but it's not about the money according to one on here who is happy with the odd billion euros going missing every year .


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am guessing that a lot depends on where you main market/customer base is.  If it is predominantly UK based then I imagine there will be more chance of them wanting to get out as I imagine they get a lot of burdens without that many benefits.  Where as if they export a lot to Europe and even globally then I imagine they will be more inclined to want to stay in. And I expect neither are right or wrong. 

In fact I'd welcome a good economic argument/discussion by people wanting to leave as it will make a refreshing change to the focus on the immigration topic which I still say, in the grand scheme of things, is a minor consideration. Let's debate the economics of it all.

From my perspective both me and my wife work for global companies and also I see how a lot of our investments are influenced by European and global economies.  So that's why I'd rather stay in, economically it makes more sense to me for myself, my family, my company and the UK economy.  But more than happy to listen to any economic arguments otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

JCB seem to be comfortable with us leaving:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I'd don't think they are wrong.  it is their opinion and they know what they see as being best for themselves and their business.  I just don't go telling them to prove they would be better out because I know that they actually can't - and they can't because they do not know the commercial environment they will be operating in -* they can only guess.*

Click to expand...

That sums it up


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I'd don't think they are wrong.  it is their opinion and they know what they see as being best for themselves and their business.  I just don't go telling them to prove they would be better out because I know that they actually can't - and they can't because they do not know the commercial environment they will be operating in - they can only guess.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like you only believe business people who come up with their reasons for staying and guessing what the implications may be.

Neither side know for a fact what might or might not happen so why do you feel your business buddies are better informed.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It certainly is Deja Vu - lots of hot air and guesswork - same as another recent referendum 

Im still waiting though for your "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in that you mentioned a couple days back

But I'll give one reason leaving - the amount of money we put into the EU massively outweighs the benefits we see from the EU

We are subjected to the community rules on benefits we must give to someone arriving from an EU country. 

If another country suffers bankruptcy ala Greece then we have to give more money to bail them out - sorry but why should be punished because another country couldn't sort their own finances.


Just a few reasons I have heard from people who want the UK to leave 

Not heard many reasons to stay
		
Click to expand...


Thank you for your reasons.

How do you quantify the amount of money that we put in to the amount of money we get out? 
How much is massive? 
Please quote reliable sources in your response.

For the record I gave you my reasons to stay in, twice really, as you 'missed' them the first time and seem to have missed them the second time around as well.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2016)

I can see the benefits of the terms we originally joined the Common Market with, a European free trade agreement makes perfect sense.   Everything else to me is unnecessary for the UK and has no real benefit other than wasting money on an organisation that makes up policies that we don't need and can manage ourselves.   The Euro is a typical example of how the EU experiment is a failure, the Migrant crisis is another example of how incompetent the EU is.

I have confidence in our Country to make a better job of it and thats my main reason to support an 'Out' vote


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for your reasons.

How do you quantify the amount of money that we put in to the amount of money we get out? 
How much is massive? 
Please quote reliable sources in your response.

For the record I gave you my reasons to stay in, twice really, as you 'missed' them the first time and seem to have missed them the second time around as well.
		
Click to expand...

You posted some stuff but none of the "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in with them being guesswork. 

This is from 2012

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in
		
Click to expand...

Taking that at face value, is it necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? Why shouldn't the stronger states help out the weaker ones?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You posted some stuff but none of the "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in with them being guesswork. 

This is from 2012

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct.  Every country in the EU except a few expect to pay in a Euro and get 1.1 back.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But that is kind of saying just because the economic working conditions in this country are not 'perfect' then that is a reason to get out.  No one is condoning paying below the minimum wage or gangs exploiting workers, but I am struggling to see how that would have changed if we were out of the EU?  And there are not perfect economic working conditions anywhere in the world, in fact I'd argue the Germans are as close as you get nowadays, and you can't get more EU than them.

And I am pretty sure that hundreds of posts ago a businessman listed the benefits he and also UK workers had gained from being in the EU?
		
Click to expand...


I've no doubt those working for multi-nationals have seen 'benefit' from membership... But I doubt the average worker on the average industrial estate or mega warehouse has seen anything of the much touted benefits [to workers] of membership... And, certainly this will be the case for those in the vans of gangmasters... All of these will have contributed, in some small, way to the membership fees so are they selfish to be expecting to at least to see some benefit on the horizon at the very least... 

Being in was portrayed as being a great opportunity for British workers... 
Whereas, for many, this has proven to be anything but the case...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Taking that at face value, is it necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? Why shouldn't the stronger states help out the weaker ones?
		
Click to expand...

If that stronger state doesn't have issues of its own to sort out. I would much prefer money go to sort out our own NHS for example as opposed to help out another counties NHS - selfish maybe but I think we need to look after our own house first and then when that's in good order help out others. 

Especially when other countries don't seem to be interested in helping themselves out - Greece is a perfect example


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Sounds like you only believe business people who come up with their reasons for staying and guessing what the implications may be.

Neither side know for a fact what might or might not happen so why do you feel your business buddies are better informed.
		
Click to expand...

Not really so.  The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU.  I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so.  Is that down to being in the EU?  I don't know.  But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be.  And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not really so.  The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU.  I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so.  Is that down to being in the EU?  I don't know.  But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be.  And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.
		
Click to expand...

Did the boss of Easyjet give the reasons why being in the EU gives cheaper flights.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did the boss of Easyjet give the reasons why being in the EU gives cheaper flights.
		
Click to expand...

She did and I believe @HK outlined them in a previous post

Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

_The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area. _

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA.  And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She did and I believe @HK outlined them in a previous post

Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

_The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area. _

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA.  And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?
		
Click to expand...

HK said that she said it was easier to run an airline being in the EU but not actually "why"

The actual factual reasons and the cost reasons as opposed to generic statements that don't actually give the actual reason.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not really so.  The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU.  I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so.  Is that down to being in the EU?  I don't know.  But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be.  And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.
		
Click to expand...

An airline company based in Iceland offer very cheap flights from UK to parts of the USA, they are not part of the EU, Emerites offer cheap flights all over the world as do many other non EU airlines so I cannot see why EasyJet feel that we need to be a member to obtain cheap flights.

The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU, seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

_The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area. _

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA.  And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?
		
Click to expand...


Not quite sure what this has got to do with anything...

But the bottom line remains...

Politicians tell lies...
Bosses of big business tell lies...

And we, irrespective of the outcome of the vote, are going nowhere...
The 'establishment' simply wouldn't allow it...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			HK said that she said it was easier to run an airline being in the EU but *not actually "why"*

The actual factual reasons and the cost reasons as opposed to generic statements that don't actually give the actual reason.
		
Click to expand...

Because for her being in the EU makes the process of doing business, in the case of Easyjet, flying between different destination mostly in Europe, easier.  And if something is easier to do then logically it will become cheaper and more efficient, which leads to cost savings etc etc.  For example if the process of opening another route to an airport in Europe is easier and quicker because we are in the EU then it logically follows it will cost less to do so. All businesses are looking to reduce the costs of doing business, which is what she thinks the EU provides for her company.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because for her being in the EU makes the process of doing business, in the case of Easyjet, flying between different destination mostly in Europe, easier.  And if something is easier to do then logically it will become cheaper and more efficient, which leads to cost savings etc etc.  For example if the process of opening another route to an airport in Europe is easier and quicker because we are in the EU then it logically follows it will cost less to do so. All businesses are looking to reduce the costs of doing business, which is what she thinks the EU provides for her company.
		
Click to expand...

But it's not specifics though HK 

Why is it easier and quicker because we are in the EU - is it a paper work trail ? Is it because of extra fees ? Is it cheaper because of some airport fees are different ? 

Has there been troubles for Easy Jet flying out of countries not in the EU - doesn't seem to have any substance behind it 

At least the boss of Ford said it pretty clearly - he wasn't sure what the impact would be but if negative could result in job losses

It all seems very familiar to a very recent referendum - lots of generic sound bites but when it gets down to the details they are very much lacking


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			....
The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU, seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse.
		
Click to expand...

The key word is 'could' and anything 'could' happen!

If a Brexit really does prompt the collapse of the EU, then it's in a pretty parlous state anyway! Though as the only state to have left it through real choice, I can see how other states might also question its relevance/value. More likely, imo, it would lead to a revised organisation, more in line with what the UK renegotiation was actually wanting!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			An airline company based in Iceland offer very cheap flights from UK to parts of the USA, they are not part of the EU, Emerites offer cheap flights all over the world as do many other non EU airlines so I cannot see why EasyJet feel that we need to be a member to obtain cheap flights.

The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU,* seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse*.
		
Click to expand...

But there were also great fears about the collapse of the Euro if Greece left, or Portugal, or Ireland.  Which goes to show just how connected the European economies, including ours, are.

And with regards to the routes then no one is saying as soon as you come out of Europe then we won't be able to fly anywhere.  The lady from Easyjet just stated it would become more expensive and the choice of routes would reduce.  Emirates is not a good example as that is basically a state funded airline from massive oil profits and it is as much about buying credibility and prominence as the main tourist destination in that region as it is running an economically successful business.  Why do you think they go around buying major football teams and naming rights to grounds in the UK, it isn't to turn a direct profit from that venture.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Dissenting voices like D4S need to be silenced for the good of all humanity!
		
Click to expand...

OK.....just give me beer and curry on a Friday night and I'll toe the party line


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 15, 2016)

drive4show said:



			OK.....just give me beer and curry on a Friday night and I'll toe the party line  

Click to expand...

There must be an EU slush fund for this!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The key word is 'could' and anything 'could' happen!

If a Brexit really does prompt the collapse of the EU, then it's in a pretty parlous state anyway! Though as the only state to have left it through real choice, I can see how other states might also question its relevance/value. More likely, imo, it would lead to a revised organisation, more in line with what the UK renegotiation was actually wanting!
		
Click to expand...

EU Commisioner now says on the BBC site that the risk of a break up is very real.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it's not specifics though HK 

Why is it easier and quicker because we are in the EU -* is it a paper work trail ? Is it because of extra fees ? Is it cheaper because of some airport fees are different ? *

Has there been troubles for Easy Jet flying out of countries not in the EU - doesn't seem to have any substance behind it 

At least the boss of Ford said it pretty clearly - he wasn't sure what the impact would be but if negative could result in job losses

It all seems very familiar to a very recent referendum - lots of generic sound bites but when it gets down to the details they are very much lacking
		
Click to expand...

Probably yes, but she probably didn't expect to have to provide a detailed audited account.  But I am sure she could provide a detailed list of the cost implications *on best estimates* as that is all she can do.  But No one knows exactly what will happen! Expecting someone to tell us exactly what will happen, as opposed to what they think with their experience and knowledge will probably happen, is just silly.  Listen to the arguments on both sides and make your mind up.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Probably yes, but she probably didn't expect to have to provide a detailed audited account.  But I am sure she could provide a detailed list of the cost implications *on best estimates* as that is all she can do.  But No one knows exactly what will happen! Expecting someone to tell us exactly what will happen, as opposed to what they think with their experience and knowledge will probably happen, is just silly.  Listen to the arguments on both sides and make your mind up.
		
Click to expand...

So again it's more guess work and there actually might not be one single change and indeed might actually make things cheaper for the company ?


----------



## drdel (Feb 15, 2016)

Interestingly despite the tight predictions and balance in the vote HSBC have decided to remain in the UK - they obviously aren't too concerned which side wins !


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So again it's more guess work and there actually might not be one single change and indeed might actually make things cheaper for the company ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is guess work.  It is a guess, a best estimate, a look into the crystal ball, a look at the tea leaves.  She has made a call and offered an opinion based on her knowledge of her industry and company that she runs. Really not sure what you are trying to prove here apart from being pedantic and trying to argue against me when I agree with what you are saying. I know that no one knows for sure!  Stop sucking the life out of the thread please.  Hey, if everyone in the media or on golf forums agreed to say nothing and offer no opinions because we can't be sure then I would be more than happy not to have to listen to this for the next few months

All I am doing is listening to the arguments made and then forming my opinion on what I think is the best logical outcome.  And guess what, I might be wrong as well!  It does happen.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And guess what, I might be wrong as well!  It does happen.
		
Click to expand...

There's a first time for everything....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			There's a first time for everything....
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, always certain...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes it is guess work.  It is a guess, a best estimate, a look into the crystal ball, a look at the tea leaves.  She has made a call and offered an opinion based on her knowledge of her industry and company that she runs. Really not sure what you are trying to prove here apart from being pedantic and trying to argue against me when I agree with what you are saying. I know that no one knows for sure!  Stop sucking the life out of the thread please.

All I am doing is listening to the arguments made and then forming my opinion on what I think is the best logical outcome.  And guess what, I might be wrong as well!  It does happen.
		
Click to expand...

Sucking the life out of the thread ?! Is this now the generic answer

I haven't said anything out of the ordinary 

Lots of statements are being made by people about the boss of such and such company from both sides as if it's a factual reason to stay in the EU ( that's not aimed at you ) - I just wanted to know the facts instead of generic statements but as I said it's all guess work on both sides with no one ( from companies etc ) coming up with factual , financial reasons to stay or go. Its all being clouded at the moment by anger - I wasn't arguing against you as being honest I have no idea if you are and " in " or "out" - Hogan bailed out and pointed you out in regards the Easyjet statement by suggesting you had posted the actual reasoning behind her statement - that's all


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2016)

drdel said:



			Interestingly despite the tight predictions and balance in the vote HSBC have decided to remain in the UK - they obviously aren't too concerned which side wins !
		
Click to expand...

I liked the attitude of the guy on the Beeb [David Buik, I think]...

"Brussels, Frankfurt, Milan can all go and whistle... The financial markets are staying here..."


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it's arrogant I'm sorry - it's not meant to be - what's arrogant about wishing that you could accept the view of someone who you'd expect to know and who stands up and is clear on what she sees as important benefits.  What can the likes of that boss of easyJet say to convince you she might have a point - all I hear is the usual 'well she would say that' or 'prove it'.  The leave campaign can't prove she is wrong so why not just accept what she says.  

There are many counter statements extolling the benefits of leaving that Leave gobble up with glee - why not just accept there may be some benefits from staying - and that what the bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui are saying is true.

And I'd thank you if you'd just cut out the nasty comments about arrogance and my being a hypocrite - they are just not necessary.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's arrogant. You might as well have just typed "pipe down little boy, you don't need to know the reasons just accept what the clever people are telling you and don't question it". I haven't suggested that she was wrong with what she says but I'd like to know the reasoning behind what she is saying so that I can make my own mind up. And it's the same for anyone saying that we should vote to leave the EU. I want to know why they think that and how they have come to that conclusion.

And I will cut out the comments about arrogance and you being a hypocrite just as soon as you stop posting things that are hypocritical. What you posted was hypocritical, you had just been saying that the leave campaign were accepting statements without challenging them and then you told me that I should accept one from the stay campaign without questioning it.


----------



## teetime75 (Feb 15, 2016)

If we leave the EU,the Euro countries who rely on tourism,Spain/Greece/Italy et al are going to vote
to make it more expensive for millions of us to fly to their holiday resorts and spend all our money ?.

I don`t think so.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course it's arrogant. You might as well have just typed "pipe down little boy, you don't need to know the reasons just accept what the clever people are telling you and don't question it". I haven't suggested that she was wrong with what she says but I'd like to know the reasoning behind what she is saying so that I can make my own mind up. And it's the same for anyone saying that we should vote to leave the EU. I want to know why they think that and how they have come to that conclusion.

And I will cut out the comments about arrogance and you being a hypocrite just as soon as you stop posting things that are hypocritical. What you posted was hypocritical, you had just been saying that the leave campaign were accepting statements without challenging them and then you told me that I should accept one from the stay campaign without questioning it.
		
Click to expand...

Try reading the article! http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-business-idUKKCN0V41WG


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And several business leaders in Glasgow, one from the major oil companies, have said leave. I 'see' your sound bite and raise you another sound bite.

And where's the deflection in my post. We are a nett contributor to the tune of Â£11.4 billion, and the NHS has a funding gap of Â£8billion. Those are hard facts, not deflection. Oh, but wait! Its not about money says the man who often rants about the NHS! What is it then, fairy dust?

I've got a feeling planes fly to the USA, and elsewhere outside of the EU. I've just booked return flights to Amsterdam from Aberdeen Â£501. If I booked Glasgow to New York Â£424. Please let me stay in the EU so it costs more to fly less distance...

Hard facts (numbers) not hairy fairy wishes with a pinch of magic dust.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so we just dismiss what the bosses of easyJet and Thompson/Tui say - well I guess that makes Leaves job easy, just ignore everything Stay say - demanding evidence beyond what the bosses say about being fully aware of how things actually work.  Meanwhile Leave guess about how things 'might' work.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not dismissing what she said, I'm showing that she and the oil boss from Glasgow both haven't added anything of substance other than stay/go.

i note, as usual you've ignored the hard facts(numbers). Numbers that could make a significant difference to our economy.

Do we have to guess your stay facts, or have you anything of substance other than being dismissive or ignoring the bits in a counter-argument that you can't find an answer to?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2016)

teetime75 said:



			If we leave the EU,the Euro countries who rely on tourism,Spain/Greece/Italy et al are going to vote
to make it more expensive for millions of us to fly to their holiday resorts and spend all our money ?.

I don`t think so.
		
Click to expand...

How very dare you use common sense amongst all our mindless babble!

and as we're a nett importer I very much doubt there'll be any trade restrictions either. No, wait.... I've used a similar rationale. How stupid of me!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 15, 2016)

drdel said:



			Interestingly despite the tight predictions and balance in the vote HSBC have decided to remain in the UK - they obviously aren't too concerned which side wins !
		
Click to expand...

IMO this has more to do with the uncertainty of how China is going to act in Hong Kong more than whether we stay or leave the EU. They would rather their investment was in the UK rather than being exposed to the Chine regime.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2016)

Norway - a model for UK access to the EU Single Market.  Straightforward - yes?

But consider immigration - EEA countries not EU.

_Norway and Switzerland have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. These countries do operate under slightly different legal arrangements to the UK when it comes to EU migration. In practice, though, they are fully integrated into the EUâ€™s free movement rules, and the EU has repeatedly made it clear that free movement of people is the price that must be paid for access to the single market._

Source: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

Daily Telegraph comment on same

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...witzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			IMO this has more to do with the uncertainty of how China is going to act in Hong Kong more than whether we stay or leave the EU. They would rather their investment was in the UK rather than being exposed to the Chine regime.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.

And especially as Osborne has relented on his rather stupid idea of taxing UK based companies on world-wide profits! HSBC would have been particularly hard hit.

Btw. Having read the BBC article that mentioned 'risk of break-up', it seems to me that he's saying it's the talks (with DC) that are at risk of break-up, not the EU itself!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35583140


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 16, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			IMO this has more to do with the uncertainty of how China is going to act in Hong Kong more than whether we stay or leave the EU. They would rather their investment was in the UK rather than being exposed to the Chine regime.
		
Click to expand...

Too true, HK jail crooked bankers, whilst the UK bails them out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Too true, HK jail crooked bankers, whilst the UK bails them out.
		
Click to expand...

Wow!   You never blamed it on England!   keep it up!!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2016)

And so UK leaves the EU.  How does the UK stop Northern Ireland being flooded with central and eastern Europeans coming in through the Republic of Ireland?  And once they are there how do we stop them travelling by ferry to the mainland.

I am sure the answers are obvious and straightforward.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so UK leaves the EU.  How does the UK stop Northern Ireland being flooded with central and eastern Europeans coming in through the Republic of Ireland?  And once they are there how do we stop them travelling by ferry to the mainland.

I am sure the answers are obvious and straightforward.
		
Click to expand...

By having border control obviously and checks at terminals


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			By having border control obviously and checks at terminals
		
Click to expand...

Where are the border controls going to be and checks at what terminals?  Northern Ireland has an open border with the RoI (and it's 499km long)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where are the border controls going to be and checks at what terminals?  Northern Ireland has an open border with the RoI.
		
Click to expand...

Which terminals do you think - ferry and airports and it won't be such an open border if we leave the UK

It's not exactly a game changing and is something that would to tackled


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which terminals do you think - ferry and airports and it won't be such an open border if we leave the UK

It's not exactly a game changing and is something that would to tackled
		
Click to expand...

How do you control immigration between the RoI and Northern Ireland?  Do you have internal UK passport control between NI and the mainland?  What do you expect the RoI to do?  I am not aware that the RoI can stop entry of EU citizens.

How would it be tackled?  These are simple and basic questions and I don't know the answers.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How do you control immigration between the RoI and Northern Ireland?  Do you have internal UK passport control between NI and the mainland?  What do you expect the RoI to do?

How would it be tackled?
		
Click to expand...

By having border control like they do all over the world at many countries borders - I thought that's pretty obvious 

I expect the UK would expect the ROI to do anything - UK would control their border just like any other entry from outside the UK.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			By having border control like they do all over the world at many countries borders - I thought that's pretty obvious 

I expect the UK would expect the ROI to do anything - UK would control their border just like any other entry from outside the UK.
		
Click to expand...

OK then - where are the border controls on the border between the RoI and NI going to be.  Easy enough to implement border controls into the UK mainland at ferry terminals from mainland Europe - but I'm struggling with the Irish land border. And why would someone wanting to get into the UK not just walk across the fields between the two countries and then just jump on a ferry at Larne - unless you have passport control at Larne?

This may not be a deal breaker - but it's a pretty obvious question in respect of immigration which still seems for many to be the prime motive for leaving the EU - so it's worth understanding how it would actually work


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - where are the border controls on the border between the RoI and NI going to be.  Easy enough to implement border controls into the UK mainland at ferry terminals from mainland Europe - but I'm struggling with the Irish land border. And why would someone wanting to get into the UK not just walk across the fields between the two countries and then just jump on a ferry at Larne - unless you have passport control at Larne?
		
Click to expand...

The same as other countries - on the main roads and then also the ferry ports etc will have passport control.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The same as other countries - on the main roads and then also the ferry ports etc will have passport control.
		
Click to expand...

But Hungary has had to put up a huge fence to stop immigration.  You're saying that that won't be necessary because everyone from central and eastern Europe wanting to get into the UK will arrive at a border control (are these going to be on all cross-border roads btw?) to be turned back - or put into an assessment centre while their suitability for entry into the UK is determined.  And because the land border is open I assume we'll have internal UK passport checking at Larne?  Surely that won't happen.

Is that how it's going to work?  

As immigration (of central and eastern europeans) is reason #1 for so many who will vote to leave, it seems pretty obvious that there could be a huge hole in the UKs border control and I'd have thought that even if nothing else was thought through there would be pretty solid plans in place for it.  Despite what many think the UK is not an island.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This may not be a deal breaker - but it's a pretty obvious question in respect of immigration which still seems for many to be the prime motive for leaving the EU -
		
Click to expand...


Nope... Those that wish to stay have no good reasons to explain why... So try and pick a fight elsewhere... Guess you watch QT... Have you not noticed this to be the case every time UK membership comes up...

And, can't understand why you are panicking... Dave's business mates simply will not allow him to take us out...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But Hungary has had to put up a huge fence to stop immigration.  You're saying that that won't be necessary because everyone from central and eastern Europe wanting to get into the UK will arrive at a border control (are these going to be on all cross-border roads btw?) to be turned back - or put into an assessment centre while their suitability for entry into the UK is determined.  And because the land border is open I assume we'll have internal UK passport checking at Larne?  Surely that won't happen.

Is that how it's going to work?  

As immigration (of central and eastern europeans) is reason #1 for so many who will vote to leave, it seems pretty obvious that there could be a huge hole in the UKs border control and I'd have thought that even if nothing else was thought through there would be pretty solid plans in place for it.  Despite what many think the UK is not an island.
		
Click to expand...

If someone wants to get into the UK from any Non EU now they find a way - 

If we were to leave the EU the borders could still be open but people from outside of the U.K. wouldn't be able to arrive and then start living of the state - people from Eastern Europe come to the UK to get their free money and then live a nice life without lifting a finger. They wouldn't be able to do that if we left the EU because we wouldn't have to give them a single penny


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

SILH.   The pull factor from the EU would lessen.  Anyone getting into the UK the way you suggest would be an illegal and would have no visa, no rights to work, no rights to state support and would not be able to claim asylum, they would only be able to work in the black market.   Also the Irish Republic would have to be careful as their citizens have had special privileges in the UK regarding visas, employment and benefits.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 17, 2016)

I love the way our Dave wants everyone to vote before any of his "demands" are even ratified.

IMO the vote won't even be a close call.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 17, 2016)

I think the proposal that immigrants would only be entitled to benefits at a level appropriate to the cost of living is outrageous and the EU should tell Cameron to stick it.

I will be voting to stay in the EU but I would hate Cameron or any of his ilk to think it was in any way connected to his King Canute performance. My vote will be despite him.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I think the proposal that immigrants would only be entitled to benefits at a level appropirta eot the cost of living is outrageous and the EU should tell Cameron to stick it.

I will be voting to stay in the EU but I would hate Cameron or any of his ilk to think it was in any way connected to his King Canute performance. My vote will be despite him.
		
Click to expand...

Under those proposals some Migrants could get benefits at a higher rate than UK citizens, even when its family allowance for children outside the UK.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Under those proposals some Migrants could get benefits at a higher rate than UK citizens, even when its family allowance for children outside the UK.
		
Click to expand...

That is just as bad. Although I suspect the idea is to punish and disincentivise eastern Europeans more than reward Danes. Nasty politics.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Under those proposals some Migrants could get benefits at a higher rate than UK citizens, even when its family allowance for children outside the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Don't let fact get in the way of a good old political moan.

Meanwhile a bit of sence http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03...ampaign=victoriaderbyshire&ns_source=facebook


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Don't let fact get in the way of a good old political moan.

Meanwhile a bit of sence http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03...ampaign=victoriaderbyshire&ns_source=facebook

Click to expand...

From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 17, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.
		
Click to expand...

^

Be prepared to cut and paste this several thousand times over the coming months.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 17, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.
		
Click to expand...

While I agree to a large degree surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving. The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and  are far more difficult to state factually.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			While I agree to a large degree *surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving.* The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and  are far more difficult to state factually.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			While I agree to a large degree surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving. The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and  are far more difficult to state factually.
		
Click to expand...

But if you view the clip it would appear that for the majority of us the only quantifiable benefit/cost is the difference between the money going out and the money coming in. So you could say that there is a cost rather than a benefit to remaining in.

The benefits/costs for industry and service sector and, therefore, the economy, of remaining in or leaving cannot be clearly determined and are open to all sorts of hypotheses and assumptions.

Aside from the finances there are questions around security, federalism, social legislation etc; and again how do you quantify these. To me they are matters of conscience rather than "the wallet".


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But if you view the clip it would appear that for the majority of us the only quantifiable benefit/cost is the difference between the money going out and the money coming in. So you could say that there is a cost rather than a benefit to remaining in.

The benefits/costs for industry and service sector and, therefore, the economy, of remaining in or leaving cannot be clearly determined and are open to all sorts of hypotheses and assumptions.

Aside from the finances there are questions around security, federalism, social legislation etc; and again how do you quantify these. To me they are matters of conscience rather than "the wallet".
		
Click to expand...

Thats absolutely correct.  Good post!

I have concerns over unlimited EU migration and where this may lead in the future as more poorer economies are allowed in, particularly Turkey.   IMO the availability of unlimited low cost labour has and progressively will keep down wages and encourage companies to use Zero Hour contracts and the Minimum wage, although as the minimum wage rises it will be a big pull factor on unskilled labour from abroad.   Some are saying that Migration is the only reason many people are wanting an out vote but I see this as quite reasonable as it affects the lives of so many where Public services become more and more strained.     This subject more than any other affects the way I will vote, if we could get agreement from the EU to be able to control immigration ourselves then I could just about suck up the rest of what I dont like  but alas that will not happen.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements

Click to expand...

But those programs are funded by giving us back some of our money.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 17, 2016)

Apparently it's all down to what Boris decides...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35592466


Now I know we are in trouble...


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats absolutely correct.  Good post!

I have concerns over unlimited EU migration and where this may lead in the future as more poorer economies are allowed in, particularly Turkey.   IMO the availability of unlimited low cost labour has and progressively will keep down wages and encourage companies to use Zero Hour contracts and the Minimum wage, although as the minimum wage rises it will be a big pull factor on unskilled labour from abroad.   Some are saying that Migration is the only reason many people are wanting an out vote but I see this as quite reasonable as it affects the lives of so many where Public services become more and more strained.     This subject more than any other affects the way I will vote, if we could get agreement from the EU to be able to control immigration ourselves then I could just about suck up the rest of what I dont like  but alas that will not happen.
		
Click to expand...

Just something to maintain your concerns.....

The deal Cameron is negotiating doesn't actually specifically restrict immigration (from EU countries). It 'merely' restricts the Benefits that can be claimed by any of those immigrants!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Just something to maintain your concerns.....

The deal Cameron is negotiating doesn't actually specifically restrict immigration (from EU countries). It 'merely' restricts the Benefits that can be claimed by any of those immigrants!
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct and why I don't support him.   His plan to restrict benefits will have almost zero impact on immigration.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But those programs are funded by giving us back some of our money.
		
Click to expand...

But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'. I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'.* I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.*

Click to expand...

Pretty simple really! That the benefits of membership outweigh the harm/cost!

And one of the issues is that UK is getting value for money for its 'contribution'!

Unfortunately, everyone has different attitudes as to the weighting *they* put on the benefits and harm/cost involved!


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements

Click to expand...

And that quite frankly has emphasised why the EU can get lost, Mansfield had Â£50,000 for its town centre which is dying on its ass, but recieved Â£500,000 for office space.
oh ah when this government could of gone to the EU for financial support, it declined. Neither mr Cameron or mr EU did nothing to help me. So maybe someone could explain to me why I should either of these people.


----------



## PieMan (Feb 17, 2016)

With EU funding programmes the Member State also has to provide an element of matched funding, so in effect we're getting some of our own money back but then having to contribute even more public money to the projects that are chosen.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2016)

PieMan said:



			With EU funding programmes the Member State also has to provide an element of matched funding, so in effect we're getting some of our own money back but then having to contribute even more public money to the projects that are chosen.
		
Click to expand...

That actually seems a pretty good idea to me!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'. I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.

Click to expand...

The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going.  Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason.    There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently.   Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own  is not much of a deciding factor for me as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in  the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going.  Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason.    There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently.   Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own  is not much of a deciding factor for me as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in  the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom.
		
Click to expand...

Socket that last long sentence starting with "Whether" pretty much sums it up for me. If you are asking me can we survive without the EU. My answer would be can the EU survive without us.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone wants to get into the UK from any Non EU now they find a way - 

If we were to leave the EU the borders could still be open but people from outside of the U.K. wouldn't be able to arrive and then start living of the state - *people from Eastern Europe come to the UK to get their free money and then live a nice life without lifting a finger. *They wouldn't be able to do that if we left the EU because we wouldn't have to give them a single penny
		
Click to expand...

You know *this *for a fact? - as this is not what I have read or heard.  I have heard that the contrary is in fact closer to the reality - that very few come to the UK for the benefits - they come to work.  

And hence I guess the increase reported today of the numbers in work and the reduction in those unemployed and on benefit.  Are these immigrants from the EU coming to the UK and taking the jobs of the indigenous population? - or are the scroungers off the state?  

Anyway - on the NI/RoI front it seems that the answer to my question is that as the RoI will not and cannot stop citizens of EU countries going to RoI then unless we build a fence between RoI and NI and have border posts at every crossing - EU citizens can get into NI at will.  And so what will they do there?  Get on the ferry at Larne and across the Irish Sea.  And once they are in England, Wales and Scotland we have a lovely big illegal immigrant problem to deal with.  Either that or put internal UK passport control on ferries from Larne and turn NI into once great big camp for illegal immigrants trying to get to UK

Of course we hope it won't be like that (and I sense that with the Leave campaign hope springs eternal) but I rather hoped (me too) that this had been thought through a bit more as it's not as if it is something that has come out of the blue.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU 

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit 

I'm first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.
		
Click to expand...

Except surely that there are no, and can be no, hard facts about the UK out of the EU.  Referring back to, and drawing from, the UK in the world Pre-EU membership is fatuous, as the world today is a very, very different place to what it was back then when the globalisation and global terrorism did not exist.  At least with the Stay campaign they can give hard facts about how the UK actually performs today in the EU and the World economies and in respect of combating and fighting global terrorism.

Note - Sorry just noticed that *@ColchesterFC* has made that point


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU 

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit 

I*'m first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI *as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.
		
Click to expand...

They'll either have to travel through the UK or go there direct by air or by sea.  Will UK Border Control be able to *prevent *passage through the UK of EU citizens wanting to travel to RoI?  And if they won't what will stop said citizens once in the UK just not bothering to go to RoI.

I agree  - of course this is not a deal breaker - and yes I am over-egging it - I just thought that someone in the Leave campaign would have thought this through and have a logical and workable solution to hand.  But it appears not.  And we are left with - Something will be done; EU citizens won't bother coming - and NI won't turn into one big camp for illegal immigrants unable to get into the UK across the Irish Sea. Fair enough,


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU 

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit 

I'm first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.
		
Click to expand...

Phil, have you looked how Norway, which isn't in the EU, with its 1500km border is absolutely overrun with illegal immigrants. Norway has also had THE best standard of living in the world for the last 6 years.

OMG! There's a country outside the EU, with a trading agreement with the EU, that has a fantastic economy... How on earth did that happen? Last year we heard Alex Salmond telling everyone and his dog that Scotland should mirror Norway. 

Maybe the UK needs to have a look at how Norway is managed...?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except surely that there are no, and can be no, hard facts about the UK out of the EU.  Referring back to, and drawing from, the UK in the world Pre-EU membership is fatuous, as the world today is a very, very different place to what it was back then when the globalisation and global terrorism did not exist.  At least with the Stay campaign they can give hard facts about how the UK actually performs today in the EU and the World economies and in respect of combating and fighting global terrorism.

Note - Sorry just noticed that *@ColchesterFC* has made that point
		
Click to expand...

But as I said the facts regarding Stay or Leave relate only to the present and could be seen as a negative purely from the financial costs involved.

Nobody can provide factual evidence to the future effect of either Leave or Stay and it is pointless either side asking the other to do so. Indeed I am rather tired of this constant representation of beliefs and assumptions as fact.

Personally I feel that there are many non-financial issues that will determine which way I vote and these are beliefs and matters of conscience.

BTW I was not aware of any harking back to pre-EU (EEC as it then was) days.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know *this *for a fact? - as this is not what I have read or heard.  I have heard that the contrary is in fact closer to the reality - that very few come to the UK for the benefits - they come to work.  

And hence I guess the increase reported today of the numbers in work and the reduction in those unemployed and on benefit.  Are these immigrants from the EU coming to the UK and taking the jobs of the indigenous population? - or are the scroungers off the state?  

Anyway - on the NI/RoI front it seems that the answer to my question is that as the RoI will not and cannot stop citizens of EU countries going to RoI then unless we build a fence between RoI and NI and have border posts at every crossing - EU citizens can get into NI at will.  And so what will they do there?  Get on the ferry at Larne and across the Irish Sea.  And once they are in England, Wales and Scotland we have a lovely big illegal immigrant problem to deal with.  Either that or put internal UK passport control on ferries from Larne and turn NI into once great big camp for illegal immigrants trying to get to UK

Of course we hope it won't be like that (and I sense that with the Leave campaign hope springs eternal) but I rather hoped (me too) that this had been thought through a bit more as it's not as if it is something that has come out of the blue.
		
Click to expand...

It's not rocket science! How do you think the UK manages immigration control from outside the EU.   You just check at airports and ferry terminals if people have passports or visas, if not you send them home.   As soon as people see this it stops the pull factor.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going.  Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason.    There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently.   Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own  is not much of a deciding factor for me *as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in  the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom*.
		
Click to expand...

You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now?  And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Phil, have you looked how Norway, which isn't in the EU, with its 1500km border is absolutely overrun with illegal immigrants. Norway has also had THE best standard of living in the world for the last 6 years.

OMG! There's a country outside the EU, with a trading agreement with the EU, that has a fantastic economy... How on earth did that happen? Last year we heard Alex Salmond telling everyone and his dog that Scotland should mirror Norway. 

Maybe the UK needs to have a look at how Norway is managed...?
		
Click to expand...

How the hell do they survive without the bosom of mother EU to protect them :thup: 

Norway is a perfect example of how we can not only survive well but flourish without the EU


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They'll either have to travel through the UK or go there direct by air or by sea.  Will UK Border Control be able to *prevent *passage through the UK of EU citizens wanting to travel to RoI?  And if they won't what will stop said citizens once in the UK just not bothering to go to RoI.

I agree  - of course this is not a deal breaker - and yes I am over-egging it - I just thought that someone in the Leave campaign would have thought this through and have a logical and workable solution to hand.  But it appears not.  And we are left with - Something will be done; EU citizens won't bother coming - and NI won't turn into one big camp for illegal immigrants unable to get into the UK across the Irish Sea. Fair enough,
		
Click to expand...

You are massively over egging - it's as simple as that IMO


----------



## Ethan (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the hell do they survive without the bosom of mother EU to protect them :thup: 

Norway is a perfect example of how we can not only survive well but flourish without the EU
		
Click to expand...

All we need to do is find massive reserves of oil sufficient to make the UK a net exporter of huge amounts of oil and then invest the proceeds wisely in a sovereign fund intended to better the lot of average citizens rather than the fat cats in the City. Do you think Cameron can manage that by June?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 18, 2016)

Ethan said:



			All we need to do is find massive reserves of oil sufficient to make the UK a net exporter of huge amounts of oil and then invest the proceeds wisely in a sovereign fund intended to better the lot of average citizens rather than the fat cats in the City. Do you think Cameron can manage that by June?
		
Click to expand...

Ethan, for once you and I can completely agree on something!

Since the North Sea fields were first developed successive Governments have wasted the potential legacy that they could have left this country, largely IMO due to short termism.

To now compare us with Norway is only to dream. The North Sea Bubble has long since been burst, with the notable exception of the Shetland Isles.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now?  And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that? 

Click to expand...

Get that tongue out your cheek.    You know the British people are made up by more than feckless youths.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ? 

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Get that tongue out your cheek.    You know the British people are made up by more than feckless youths.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, there's apparently huge amounts of immigrants here with the sole purpose of scrounging off the state as well. Plus lots of old retired people, a massive service sector that can be mostly outsourced anywhere in the world and a banking/financial industry that will bugger off somewhere else if we pull out of the EU. Still confident we can maintain our position...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Ethan, for once you and I can completely agree on something!

Since the North Sea fields were first developed successive Governments have wasted the potential legacy that they could have left this country, largely IMO due to short termism.

To now compare us with Norway is only to dream. The North Sea Bubble has long since been burst, with the notable exception of the Shetland Isles.
		
Click to expand...

We did a bit of a 'Greece' with it and wasted much of the revenue on things like tax credits, paying people to stay home and bloated pensions for state employees.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ? 

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?
		
Click to expand...

Certainly there is the possibility of new developments in the North Sea and possibly the Clyde Basin. However, the fall in worldwide demand and its effect upon oil prices may mean that these never come to fruition.

If, however, they did then to benefit the nation's economy the situation would need to be far better managed than is the case with the present Government or its various predecessors.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now?  And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that? 

Click to expand...


By remaining in, opportunities for our youth, [feckless or otherwise] will continue to diminish as they have done since joining... Possibly at an even quicker rate... Manufacturing all but gone keyboard operators and distribution centres next on the list...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			By remaining in, opportunities for our youth, [feckless or otherwise] will continue to diminish as they have done since joining... Possibly at an even quicker rate... Manufacturing all but gone keyboard operators and distribution centres next on the list...
		
Click to expand...

I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU.  Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ? 

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?
		
Click to expand...

They're still there. But as the North Sea has an average cost of $65 a barrel to lift, and they're selling at $31, they're not planning on drilling in the near future. That said, George Osbourne is considering significant tax breaks for exploration - currently, the Norwegians are getting 78% tax breaks, which the UK can't match because its against EU rules....


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU.  Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?
		
Click to expand...


I am more inclined to feel, with EU membership, business has found it all too easy to move their manufacturing elsewhere...

In a few hundred years historians will look back and see the UK prospered for 30yrs or so post war... Then they'll see a rapid decline from about the time of joining the EU... As I noted previously, had we been in from day one, I feel the situation may have been a whole lot different... EU membership promised a lot but from where I am sitting has delivered on little... 

In the 45yrs or so since I started work the opportunities for our youth have disappeared elsewhere... I am truly concerned for the lot of my grandchildren...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU.  Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?
		
Click to expand...

Our youth have to compete for jobs against an unlimited number of people who are content  to work on Zero hour contracts and for minimum wages or below in some cases.   Opening up our job market to such numbers (and with the prospect of this number getting much larger)  then IMO our young people will be better off if we are out.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I am more inclined to feel, with EU membership, business has found it all too easy to move their manufacturing elsewhere...

In a few hundred years historians will look back and see the UK prospered for 30yrs or so post war... Then they'll see a rapid decline from about the time of joining the EU... As I noted previously, had we been in from day one, I feel the situation may have been a whole lot different... EU membership promised a lot but from where I am sitting has delivered on little... 

In the 45yrs or so since I started work the opportunities for our youth have disappeared elsewhere... *I am truly concerned for the lot of my grandchildren..*.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.  And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone.  Unfortunately manufacturing is not going to come rushing back to the UK if we opt out, and there is an argument to say we would be even less attractive for many companies. And zero contract jobs will not disappear as capitalism will see to that. There is massive competition from the far east and IMHO we need to be in a big trading bloc to fight that, not on our own.

Also not sure if you have any stats to back up the statement that we prospered for 30 years since the war and then have gone into decline.  Here's a link to show annual GDP growth and I'm not seeing any correlation myself.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/elmr/...p-in-the-uk/sty-long-term-profile-of-gdp.html


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Me too.  *And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone.*  Unfortunately manufacturing is not going to come rushing back to the UK if we opt out, and there is an argument to say we would be even less attractive for many companies. And zero contract jobs will not disappear as capitalism will see to that. There is massive competition from the far east and IMHO we need to be in a big trading bloc to fight that, not on our own.

Also not sure if you have any stats to back up the statement that we prospered for 30 years since the war and then have gone into decline.  Here's a link to show annual GDP growth and I'm not seeing any correlation myself.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/elmr/...p-in-the-uk/sty-long-term-profile-of-gdp.html

Click to expand...

Sorry for repeating this but do you honestly think we will not trade with any EU countries if we exit?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry for repeating this but do you honestly think we will not trade with any EU countries if we exit?
		
Click to expand...

And at the risk of repeating myself as seems to be the way in these ever decreasing circular threads, of course we will still do business and trade with EU countries.  No one is saying we will not.  My argument/thoughts/opinion I copied verbatim from The Guardian is that it is easier for UK businesses to do business with other countries in the world largest trade bloc if you are in that bloc, as opposed to not being in that bloc. In addition to the ease of conducting business with fellow like minded club members, countries tend to favour trading with certain nations and whilst I am sure we will not go on any back lists, I am also pretty confident that a fellow EU member state are favoured when it comes to doing business with over a non EU member state. And the more business and exports UK based businesses can do the better if we want a stable economy.

Think of it as the intangible benefits you get from being the member of a golf club. If you want just the 'economic arguments and facts' then you can say if you play 40 times a year the rounds work out cheaper if you become a member.  But as many have stated on here, there are also the intangible benefits that a lot of people like.  Such as being a member of an exclusive club, meeting like minded individuals, looking down on poor people, the ability to feel important by sitting on a committee and banning anyone wearing high tops shoes like Ricky Fowler wears, that kind of thing.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry for repeating this but do you honestly think we will not trade with any EU countries if we exit?
		
Click to expand...

Where did he say that?

My thoughts are that if we still traded post brexit, we lose pretty much all negotiating power, as we would need them (for access to the trading bloc) more than they need us (for our trade). UK becomes even more irrelevant on a global scale. 

It makes no sense NOT to be part of something bigger, with the way the world is going (super states/bigger countries)


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 18, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			we would need them (for access to the trading bloc) more than they need us (for our trade)
		
Click to expand...

I would argue that it would be the other way round. They would lose a massive amount of trade if they put obstacles in the way of us trading with them. With our trade deficit I'm sure there would be some kind of trade agreement put in place pretty quickly. I can't imagine that the EU countries would be too happy if we took the billions of pounds we spend on their goods each year and said that because they were making things difficult we were going to spend it in China, Japan, America or wherever else.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would argue that it would be the other way round. They would lose a massive amount of trade if they put obstacles in the way of us trading with them. With our trade deficit I'm sure there would be some kind of trade agreement put in place pretty quickly. I can't imagine that the EU countries would be too happy if we took the billions of pounds we spend on their goods each year and said that because they were making things difficult we were going to spend it in China, Japan, America or wherever else.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And at the risk of repeating myself as seems to be the way in these ever decreasing circular threads, of course we will still do business and trade with EU countries.  No one is saying we will not.  My argument/thoughts/opinion I copied verbatim from The Guardian is that it is easier for UK businesses to do business with other countries in the world largest trade bloc if you are in that bloc, as opposed to not being in that bloc. In addition to the ease of conducting business with fellow like minded club members, countries tend to favour trading with certain nations and whilst I am sure we will not go on any back lists, I am also pretty confident that a fellow EU member state are favoured when it comes to doing business with over a non EU member state. And the more business and exports UK based businesses can do the better if we want a stable economy.

Think of it as the intangible benefits you get from being the member of a golf club. If you want just the 'economic arguments and facts' then you can say if you play 40 times a year the rounds work out cheaper if you become a member.  But as many have stated on here, there are also the intangible benefits that a lot of people like.  Such as being a member of an exclusive club, meeting like minded individuals, looking down on poor people, the ability to feel important by sitting on a committee and banning anyone wearing high tops shoes like Ricky Fowler wears, that kind of thing.
		
Click to expand...

But the point for me is whether they want to do business with us.  We are a major source for EU countries to sell their goods into and I cannot see any way that they would want to do anything that reduced that trade.

Regarding the non trade issues, I explained how I see them earlier and how they are more important to me than whether we keep or loose a bit of our trade.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But the point for me is whether they want to do business with us.  We are a major source for EU countries to sell their goods into and I cannot see any waay that they would want to do anything that reduced that trade.
		
Click to expand...

Which is surely precisely why they are prepared to do a deal to keep the UK actually IN the EU!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



*Where did he say that?*

My thoughts are that if we still traded post brexit, we lose pretty much all negotiating power, as we would need them (for access to the trading bloc) more than they need us (for our trade). UK becomes even more irrelevant on a global scale. 

It makes no sense NOT to be part of something bigger, with the way the world is going (super states/bigger countries)
		
Click to expand...

He said "And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone"


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Where did he say that?

My thoughts are that if we still traded post brexit, we lose pretty much all negotiating power, as we would need them (for access to the trading bloc) more than they need us (for our trade). UK becomes even more irrelevant on a global scale. 

*It makes no sense NOT to be part of something bigger, with the way the world is going (super states/bigger countries)*

Click to expand...

Ask those countries that have actually split from larger ones - an even greater 'wrench'!

I agree with your point about losing negotiating power - or at least what little we had anyway. Sorry no 'facts' to hand to back that opinion up though! 

I have no doubt that trade would continue (again no facts to back it up though ) and it would be via a FTA (no facts there either!)! It would just be a tad (or more) more difficult, so the amount, if not the value of trade would be less. That phenomenon is trade simply obeying the 'laws' of economics!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He said "And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone"
		
Click to expand...

I meant 'tried to go it alone' as in were not part of a  larger trading bloc.  Not 'tried to go it alone' as in we would not trade with other nations. I assumed that was obvious.  But obviously not and I have made an ass.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Which is surely precisely why they are prepared to do a deal to keep the UK actually IN the EU!
		
Click to expand...

Not convinced that the deal that 'May' be ratified is good enough to make a dot of difference to most peoples voting intentions, it's just a cosmetic stitch up by Cameron and his mates IMO.   If it included a 'Brake' on EU migration if WE thought it necessary then I think it may have been good enough, but not the proposed limp concession.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Our youth have to compete for jobs against an *unlimited number of people who are content  to work on Zero hour contracts *and for minimum wages or below in some cases.   Opening up our job market to such numbers (and with the prospect of this number getting much larger)  then IMO our young people will be better off if we are out.
		
Click to expand...

Well hardly unlimited as the ONS tell us that there are 750,000 on zero-hours contracts. This figure plus all the millions of minimum wage jobs rather helps explain why the tax-credit bill is rocketing.  Rather neatly aligns with there being 800,000 Poles in the UK.  I guess they must have all the zero hours jobs?   Are you suggesting that many of the indigenous population find zero hours contracts beneath them - or that the Poles etc do better at interview...

As @HK has said - zero hours contracts are here to stay as we live in a globalised economy and we have to compete with very low cost competitors.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are massively over egging - it's as simple as that IMO
		
Click to expand...

I asked a simple question about control of immigration - as that is seen as key to most who want to leave - everything else mentioned eventually leads to immigration.  And closed borders (being an island) is easy - except that we can't close all of them.   I did not get an answer that would actually tell me how we would actually close the border between NI and RoI. 

I simply raised this is an obvious hole in the immigration fence with the expectation that Leave would have the answer to hand.  But it seems not.  Which is a bit disappointing, but perhaps not surprising as they can't actually give an answer to many 'how are you going to do/arrange that - how is that going to happen' type questions.

I know - let's build a fence

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...eland-irish-republic-eu-referendum-enda-kenny


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well hardly unlimited as the ONS tell us that there are 750,000 on zero-hours contracts. This figure plus all the millions of minimum wage jobs rather helps explain why the tax-credit bill is rocketing.  Rather neatly aligns with there being 800,000 Poles in the UK.  I guess they must have all the zero hours jobs?   Are you suggesting that many of the indigenous population find zero hours contracts beneath them - or that the Poles etc do better at interview...
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to the huge number of people in countries where wages are very low that are more than happy to come here and work on Zero Hours contracts and for minimum wages.  Also as the EU will eventually take on more poor economy  countries like Turkey those numbers will become very large indeed.   I guess many of the current middle east migrants coming into the EU will eventually get the right to work in the UK as well.


----------



## 6inchcup (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I was referring to the huge number of people in countries where wages are very low that are more than happy to come here and work on Zero Hours contracts and for minimum wages.  Also as the EU will eventually take on more poor economy  countries like Turkey those numbers will become very large indeed.   I guess many of the current middle east migrants coming into the EU will eventually get the right to work in the UK as well.
		
Click to expand...

wait untill the living wage comes in and we are swamped by EU member countries that are rubbing their hands about the extra money being sent home by workers boosting their spending power,why should Â£20+ be sent home to their kids when they would only get Â£3 in their own country,wrong on all counts ship them all back home legal or not.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I was referring to the huge number of people in countries where wages are very low that are more than happy to come here and work on Zero Hours contracts and for minimum wages.  Also as the EU will eventually take on more poor economy  countries like Turkey those numbers will become very large indeed.   I guess many of the current middle east migrants coming into the EU will eventually get the right to work in the UK as well.
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty of UK citizens working on zero hours and low paid contracts - it's not that we Brits are incapable of taking a low paid job - just that maybe too many choose not to go for them for whatever reason.  It won;t be that Eastern Europeans got in first and the Brits didn't have a chance at the job - it will be because the eastern european went for the job and got it through merit.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I asked a simple question about control of immigration - as that is seen as key to most who want to leave - everything else mentioned eventually leads to immigration.  And closed borders (being an island) is easy - except that we can't close all of them.   I did not get an answer that would actually tell me how we would actually close the border between NI and RoI. 

I simply raised this is an obvious hole in the immigration fence with the expectation that Leave would have the answer to hand.  But it seems not.  Which is a bit disappointing, but perhaps not surprising as they can't actually give an answer to many 'how are you going to do/arrange that - how is that going to happen' type questions.

I know - let's build a fence

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...eland-irish-republic-eu-referendum-enda-kenny

Click to expand...

Phil is correct to say you are over egging it.  Do you think Polish people will be landing in Holyhead in rubber boats?  And do you think they would all be looking to work in the black market as they would have no Visas, work permits, access to benefits, housing  or health services.   Really?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

6inchcup said:



			wait untill the living wage comes in and we are swamped by EU member countries that are rubbing their hands about the extra money being sent home by workers boosting their spending power,why should Â£20+ be sent home to their kids when they would only get Â£3 in their own country,wrong on all counts ship them all back home legal or not.
		
Click to expand...

Are you talking child benefit or wages?

If child benefit - would you rather the parents worked in the UK and sent child benefit money home - or that they brought the children to the UK?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Phil is correct to say you are over egging it.  Do you think Polish people will be landing in Holyhead in rubber boats?  And do you think they would all be looking to work in the black market as they would have no Visas, work permits, access to benefits, housing  or health services.   Really?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting anything.  I am asking the question about what will stop Poles (wanting to head to the UK for whatever reason) from travelling to RoI, and then crossing the border into NI; then taking the ferry from Larne (in NI) to Stranraer.

That's what I am asking

If the answer is 'nothing' then fine.  But let's not pretend that the border and hence immigration will be completely controlled


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If child benefit - would you rather the parents worked in the UK and sent child benefit money home - or that they brought the children to the UK?
		
Click to expand...

that is one of the best questions posed on here ever! That certainly will have the closet BNP and UKIP voters having to confront their prejudices. I salute you sir!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There are plenty of UK citizens working on zero hours and low paid contracts - it's not that we Brits are incapable of taking a low paid job - just that maybe too many choose not to go for them for whatever reason.  It won;t be that Eastern Europeans got in first and the Brits didn't have a chance at the job - it will be because the eastern european went for the job and got it through merit.
		
Click to expand...

Do you not agree that EU migration has kept wages down for the low paid.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not suggesting anything.  I am asking the question about what will stop Poles (wanting to head to the UK for whatever reason) from travelling to RoI, and then crossing the border into NI; then taking the ferry from Larne (in NI) to Stranraer.

That's what I am asking

If the answer is 'nothing' then fine.  But let's not pretend that the border and hence immigration will be completely controlled
		
Click to expand...

Belfast Telegraph has some thoughts on the matter

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...exit-would-remodel-irish-border-30981176.html


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not suggesting anything.  I am asking the question about what will stop Poles (wanting to head to the UK for whatever reason) from travelling to RoI, and then crossing the border into NI; then taking the ferry from Larne (in NI) to Stranraer.

That's what I am asking

If the answer is 'nothing' then fine.  But let's not pretend that the border and hence immigration will be completely controlled
		
Click to expand...

1. They won't get benefits 

2. They won't be able to work 

3. They won't get medical services 

4. They won't be able to bring their families across 

5. They won't be able to cross into Mainland UK from anywhere.

6. They won't be able to claim asylum

Now tell me why they would come to the UK


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you not agree that EU migration has kept wages down for the low paid.
		
Click to expand...

The employers pay the wages.  If you are going to blame anyone for low wages blame the employers for paying a pittance not those willing to work for that pittance.  Besides.  Low wages have enabled employers to employ more people and so employment reaches record levels (boasted the government yesterday)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			1. They won't get benefits 

2. They won't be able to work 

3. They won't get medical services 

4. They won't be able to bring their families across 

*5. They won't be able to cross into Mainland UK from anywhere.*

6. They won't be able to claim asylum
		
Click to expand...

Heard of the Larne to Stranraer ferry?

And I'm asking about those who choose to come to the UK *despite* all you list above.  What if 100 a day just decide for the hell of it - as they think they'll find something.   What we going to do?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard of the Larne to Stranraer ferry?

And I'm asking about those who choose to come to the UK *despite* all you list above.  What if 100 a day just decide for the hell of it - as they think they'll find something.   What we going to do?
		
Click to expand...

Well I would imagine that if they enter or try to enter without the correct paperwork then they would be returned to where they came from.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard of the Larne to Stranraer ferry?

And I'm asking about those who choose to come to the UK *despite* all you list above.  What if 100 a day just decide for the hell of it - as they think they'll find something.   What we going to do?
		
Click to expand...


I've also heard of the Dunkirk Dover ferry, and that isn't exactly bursting with those in Sangat is it.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not convinced that the deal that 'May' be ratified is good enough to make a dot of difference to most peoples voting intentions, it's just a cosmetic stitch up by Cameron and his mates IMO.   If it included a 'Brake' on EU migration if WE thought it necessary then I think it may have been good enough, but not the proposed limp concession.
		
Click to expand...

That may be the case.

But DC is gambling (I believe) on getting a good enough deal to be able to sell it to sufficient of the waverers to get the 'Stay' result that he wants whenever the referendum takes place. We'll have to wait and see whether that turns out to be the case. I frankly don't think it's going to change the minds of any of the contributors to this thread though!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard of the Larne to Stranraer ferry?

And I'm asking about those who choose to come to the UK *despite* all you list above.  What if 100 a day just decide for the hell of it - as they think they'll find something.   What we going to do?
		
Click to expand...

Yep heard of it - how can they expect to come into the country without the proper paperwork 

There is far more ways to enter via Kent yet people don't flood through there


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			that is one of the best questions posed on here ever! That certainly will have the closet BNP and UKIP voters having to confront their prejudices. I salute you sir!
		
Click to expand...

I would rather Children lived with their parents whether that be here or abroad.  I have no problem with people working in the UK,  paying tax and getting child benefits, my only issue is 'How Many'.

This is what the Conservatives laid out in their 2015 manifesto that people voted for:

*If an EU migrantâ€™s child is living abroad, then they should receive no child benefit or child tax credit, no matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter how much tax they have paid.
*


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The employers pay the wages.  If you are going to blame anyone for low wages blame the employers for paying a pittance not those willing to work for that pittance.  Besides.  Low wages have enabled employers to employ more people and so employment reaches record levels (boasted the government yesterday)
		
Click to expand...

Employers that pay low wages pay the rate they can get away with.  The large numbers of migrants from low wage countries are very happy to receive what we might call poor wages as they are much better than they can get at home.  This IMO has been a major problem where the EU has allowed poor countries free access to the EU labour market which creates a one way flow.   How many people have flocked to Romania or Bulgaria.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Employers that pay low wages pay the rate they can get away with.  The large numbers of migrants from low wage countries are very happy to receive what we might call poor wages as they are much better than they can get at home.  This IMO has been a major problem where the EU has allowed poor countries free access to the EU labour market which creates a one way flow.   *How many people have flocked to Romania or Bulgaria.*

Click to expand...

Actually, I've known several! Maybe not a flock and they had/have specific skills that were in demand - or were entrepreneurs. The migrants to UK tend to be at the other end of the earnings scale - and there are a lot more in that category!


----------



## jp5 (Feb 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The employers pay the wages.  If you are going to blame anyone for low wages blame the employers for paying a pittance not those willing to work for that pittance.  Besides.  Low wages have enabled employers to employ more people and so employment reaches record levels (boasted the government yesterday)
		
Click to expand...

Can't blame employers for minimising costs while there's an oversupply of labour and a minimum wage that is much higher than migrant workers could earn back home.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2016)

So still 'NO DEAL' for David this Morning.   This is just becoming embarrassing now where we have to beg for permission on how we pay benefits in our own Nation.   He should walk out, try and retain a shred of dignity then let the electorate decide.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So still 'NO DEAL' for David this Morning.   This is just becoming embarrassing now where we have to beg for permission on how we pay benefits in our own Nation.   He should walk out, try and retain a shred of dignity then let the electorate decide.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, he's trying to get a rule change. I dare say many of us on here have been to AGM's and had a far easier ride getting jeans accepted.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			To be fair, he's trying to get a rule change. I dare say many of us on here have been to AGM's and had a far easier ride getting jeans accepted.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying the EU will introduce a law to say jeans can be worn in the clubhouse at all golf courses?  

If so I feel that may well be the straw that breaks the camels back. Golfers beware, first it was straight bananas, next it will be jeans and flip flops on the golf course. Vote out, vote Nigel and hop off you frogs!!!


----------



## PieMan (Feb 19, 2016)

Was never going to be a deal after the first round of talks - that's how the top EU negotiations work. From my experience talks go on through the night, followed by bilateral / trilateral discussions to get people onside and offer some concessions, and then resume again at some point after a few hours rest. If a deal is to be done today then would expect it to be announced at some point this afternoon - no one wants to be stuck in EU land over the weekend!!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

I expect the deal has been done by the minions/advisors ages ago. All they are doing now is working out some weaselly words to make it look like every leader can save face when they get back to their electorate.


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So still 'NO DEAL' for David this Morning.   This is just becoming embarrassing now where we have to beg for permission on how we pay benefits in our own Nation.   He should walk out, try and retain a shred of dignity then let the electorate decide.
		
Click to expand...

THIS !!! 

If they (EU) want us to stay in, lets face it, they NEED US TO STAY IN, why don't they just let us have what we want and take our money? Oh no, not enough, THEY WANT TO CONTROL US TOO. Well Dave should be a big man and walk out and say stuff you all we're DONE here. We're OUT !!! Good luck with the immigrants an' all. T'RAAAAAAAAAA


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I've also heard of the Dunkirk Dover ferry, and that isn't exactly bursting with those in Sangat is it.
		
Click to expand...

Because there are tight controls there. Unlike the train. Worst thing EVER !


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I expect the deal has been done by the minions/advisors ages ago. All they are doing now is working out some weaselly words to make it look like every leader can save face when they get back to their electorate.
		
Click to expand...

That's probably right.  The stitch up was probably agreed months ago and this is a farce to make everyone believe they have won.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's probably right.  The stitch up was probably agreed months ago and this is a farce to make everyone believe they have won.
		
Click to expand...

Probably true.

But equally, many minds also made up in advance. John Redwood (sadly my MP) isn't going to vote to stay in even if Cameron brought Angela Merkle's head back on a spike.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Probably true.

But equally, many minds also made up in advance. John Redwood (sadly my MP) isn't going to vote to stay in even if Cameron brought Angela Merkle's head back on a spike.
		
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this today. It actually seems that almost everyone already knows how they are going to vote regardless of what Cameron's deal ends up looking like.

Is there anyone contributing to this thread that could be swayed one way or the other depending on Dave's Deal?

I'll be voting stay for purely philosophical reasons and couldn't care less what opt outs the UK gets. In fact, I'd prefer if we were full members as per France and Germany etc and aiming for "ever closer union".


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Probably true.

But equally, many minds also made up in advance. John Redwood (sadly my MP) isn't going to vote to stay in even if Cameron brought Angela Merkle's head back on a spike.
		
Click to expand...

That's where it should be anyway. She's not got a brain cell in there at all.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 19, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			That's where it should be anyway. She's not got a brain cell in there at all.
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree. She is an astute politician and could (and has) run rings around Cameron. But that was a metaphor for a huge victory. I think EU Human Rights legislation prevents putting people's head on spikes, however much the Tories would like to do it as part of their roll back of society to a past time.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			. I think EU Human Rights legislation prevents putting people's head on spikes, .
		
Click to expand...

I really enjoyed this. Had a little chuckle to myself.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've been thinking about this today. It actually seems that almost everyone already knows how they are going to vote regardless of what Cameron's deal ends up looking like.

Is there anyone contributing to this thread that could be swayed one way or the other depending on Dave's Deal?

I'll be voting stay for purely philosophical reasons and couldn't care less what opt outs the UK gets. In fact, I'd prefer if we were full members as per France and Germany etc and aiming for "ever closer union".
		
Click to expand...

TBH I'm undecided and have watched closely what is being said, reading papers, watching TV, own reserarch, even read every post on here and was watching QT last night and unfortunately don't feel any further forward, in fact I agre with what was said last night that it's like a pantomine.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've been thinking about this today. It actually seems that almost everyone already knows how they are going to vote regardless of what Cameron's deal ends up looking like.

Is there anyone contributing to this thread that could be swayed one way or the other depending on Dave's Deal?

I'll be voting stay for purely philosophical reasons and couldn't care less what opt outs the UK gets. In fact, I'd prefer if we were full members as per France and Germany etc and aiming for "ever closer union".
		
Click to expand...

I'm still undecided really..  I like the theory behind closer ties with Europe. I like the philosophy behind uniting nations. However, I just don't think it's being done in a way that brings the people of those nations closer together. It's currently a mess that is actually driving a wedge between the populations of these member states.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've been thinking about this today. It actually seems that almost everyone already knows how they are going to vote regardless of what Cameron's deal ends up looking like.

Is there anyone contributing to this thread that could be swayed one way or the other depending on Dave's Deal?

I'll be voting stay for purely philosophical reasons and couldn't care less what opt outs the UK gets. In fact, I'd prefer if we were full members as per France and Germany etc and aiming for "ever closer union".
		
Click to expand...

If there was an agreement that each country had control of migration such they could decide on numbers then I could accept the rest of the issues.   It just will not happen though.


----------



## PieMan (Feb 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I expect the deal has been done by the minions/advisors ages ago. All they are doing now is working out some weaselly words to make it look like every leader can save face when they get back to their electorate.
		
Click to expand...

Up to a point; afterall we've known for ages what Cameron has been negotiating and what the other Member States could accept. However on the 'big ticket' items these will not have been agreed in advance hence the on-going discussions.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Probably true.

But equally, many minds also made up in advance. John Redwood (sadly my MP) isn't going to vote to stay in even if Cameron brought Angela Merkle's head back on a spike.
		
Click to expand...

He's been anti EU for his whole political life just like a certain Mr Corbyn but as he's a Labour man I suppose that's ok


----------



## Ethan (Feb 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			He's been anti EU for his whole political life just like a certain Mr Corbyn but as he's a Labour man I suppose that's ok
		
Click to expand...

I don't think Redwood and Corbyn's positions were ever quite the same. 

Redwood is a little Englander's out, out, out and nothing will convince him,. He has voted against EU integration almost all the time.

Corbyn has a mixed voting record, and has voted for and against various EU bills, mostly along the effects on ordinary working people. That is consistent with his overall policy position.

I agree with much Corbyn says, but if he endorses an out vote, I will disagree with him. But he won't.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I agree with much Corbyn says, but if he endorses an out vote, I will disagree with him. But he won't.
		
Click to expand...

Prior to being leader he has always wanted out. He will vote in what is best for him especially if he can achieve some political gains from it. He, like most polititions will say one thing and vote a completely different way and we will never know.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I don't think Redwood and Corbyn's positions were ever quite the same. 

Redwood is a *little Englander's* out, out, out and nothing will convince him,. He has voted against EU integration almost all the time.

Corbyn has a mixed voting record, and has voted for and against various EU bills, mostly along the effects on ordinary working people. That is consistent with his overall policy position.

I agree with much Corbyn says, but if he endorses an out vote, I will disagree with him. But he won't.
		
Click to expand...

Some might see that as being a *'Big Englander'.*  Neither are valid if they are terms to disparage an opposing view.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Probably true.

But equally, many minds also made up in advance. *John Redwood (sadly my MP)* isn't going to vote to stay in even if Cameron brought Angela Merkle's head back on a spike.
		
Click to expand...

..and there was me bemoaning having Jeremy Hunt as mine


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2016)

Latest from the talks........UK still allowed to drive on the left.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Feb 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest from the talks........UK still allowed to drive on the left.
		
Click to expand...

And the Italians have permission to drive in the shade


----------



## spongebob59 (Feb 19, 2016)

Jason Rees Mogg can expect a cup of water now 

http://order-order.com/2015/11/10/the-mogg-on-daves-thin-gruel/


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

spongebob59 said:



			Jason Rees Mogg can expect a cup of water now 

http://order-order.com/2015/11/10/the-mogg-on-daves-thin-gruel/

Click to expand...

I see Michael Gove is also in the leave camp now.  And if the prospect of aligning yourself with Gove and the Tory Boy you've linked to do not persuade you that staying in is a good thing then nothing will...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2016)

Michael Gove.......next Tory party leader ?
Seems to have a lot of support from the members.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Michael Gove is also in the leave camp now.  And if the prospect of aligning yourself with Gove and the Tory Boy you've linked to do not persuade you that staying in is a good thing then nothing will... 

Click to expand...


No surprise about Gove...

Has Boris announced what his intentions are?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Michael Gove.......next Tory party leader ?
Seems to have a lot of support from the members.
		
Click to expand...

God help us. If it's a competition between him and Osborne I may well emigrate.  Assuming I still can.  

I tell you, we are going to hell in a handcart now that the Liberal Democrats have been wiped out and we are just blindly following the US model of extremist politics and ideologies on both sides (well you could argue that the democrats are not extremist but the mental Republicans seem to make up for that). Meaning that compromise, which generally is the way to get things done, will become increasingly impossible.


----------



## teetime75 (Feb 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest from the talks........UK still allowed to drive on the left.
		
Click to expand...

This is being phased out over the next seven yrs.

It is hoped that by yr.four everyone will be driving in the middle.:mmm:


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			God help us. If it's a competition between him and Osborne *I may well emigrate.*  Assuming I still can.  
.
		
Click to expand...

Result!!:whoo:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Result!!:whoo:
		
Click to expand...


Every cloud and all that... 

Trouble is they still have the internet abroad.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			God help us. If it's a competition between him and Osborne I may well emigrate.  Assuming I still can.  

I tell you, we are going to hell in a handcart now that the Liberal Democrats have been wiped out and we are just blindly following the US model of extremist politics and ideologies on both sides (well you could argue that the democrats are not extremist but the mental Republicans seem to make up for that). Meaning that compromise, which generally is the way to get things done, will become increasingly impossible.
		
Click to expand...

If Sanders secures the Democrats' nomination I think you could argue that they are somewhat extreme, certainly by US standards.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and there was me bemoaning having Jeremy Hunt as mine
		
Click to expand...

Must be rather like living in Corbyn's constituency.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2016)

Looks like we all have to wait a little longer for that Chamberlain moment. If he's had to water it down anymore and has to rely on the youth vote he's doomed.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 19, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If Sanders secures the Democrats' nomination I think you could argue that they are somewhat extreme, certainly by US standards.
		
Click to expand...

Quite unlikely. Like Trump, the people love him but the party doesn't. The party usually gets its way and can sabotage any candidate if they really want to.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Quite unlikely. Like Trump, the people love him but the party doesn't. The party usually gets its way and can sabotage any candidate if they really want to.
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping that would be the case with Trump and the Republicans but they certainly seem to be leaving it late to make a move. Mind you following Christie's withdrawal what have they to offer.

As for Hilary I fear that she may be suffering from an anti-Establishment and anti-Clinton backlash.


----------



## chrisd (Feb 19, 2016)

So, a deal is done - bring on the referendum!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2016)

Well thats a shockerooni.

Might I suggest it would be quite amusing if the UK still decides to leave


----------



## chrisd (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't think we will but, yes, it would be!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Must be rather like living in Corbyn's constituency.
		
Click to expand...

Back in the day when he first became MP JH would occasionally appear outside our wee Sainsburys in town and chat with us punters about things.  No longer I fear.  Wonder if he went into politics seeking the opprobrium being heaped on him these days.  Doubt it somehow.  I'm guessing he'll be a 'Stayer' but as his prospects of leading the Tories have I imagine gone down the plughole with his popularity that might free him to fall the other side of the argument if he so wishes.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Might I suggest it would be quite amusing if the UK still decides to leave

Click to expand...


But that's exactly what he wants...
So he can go back and do an Oliver Twist...


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Back in the day when he first became MP JH would occasionally appear outside our wee Sainsburys in town and chat with us punters about things.  No longer I fear.  Wonder if he went into politics seeking the opprobrium being heaped on him these days.  Doubt it somehow.  I'm guessing he'll be a 'Stayer' but as his prospects of leading the Tories have I imagine gone down the plughole with his popularity that might free him to fall the other side of the argument if he so wishes.
		
Click to expand...

You are still quite fortunate because while you may not agree with Mr Hunt I believe he is, at least, honest.

Our MP is D Tredinnick, Google him!


----------



## Ethan (Feb 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			You are still quite fortunate because while you may not agree with Mr Hunt I believe he is, at least, honest.
		
Click to expand...

Hunt is not honest. He is very skilled at lying, to be fair.

The weekend effect in the NHS as a justification for changes to doctors contracts is a lie. The cause is not medical staffing levels and some of his own experts have said that. 

Changing the junior doctor contract to fix it is a lie. It is about providing more flexible working patterns for private providers. 

Saying he wanted to negotiate was a lie. He always intended to impose the contract if negotiations did not result in unconditional surrender by the BMA. 

Saying NHS chiefs had asked him to impose the contract was lie. They have all denied it and several did not even see the letter on which their names were put. 

Saying he doesn't want to break up the NHS is a lie. He has written a book on doing exactly that.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 20, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Hunt is not honest. He is very skilled at lying, to be fair.

The weekend effect in the NHS as a justification for changes to doctors contracts is a lie. The cause is not medical staffing levels and some of his own experts have said that. 

Changing the junior doctor contract to fix it is a lie. It is about providing more flexible working patterns for private providers. 

Saying he wanted to negotiate was a lie. He always intended to impose the contract if negotiations did not result in unconditional surrender by the BMA. 

Saying NHS chiefs had asked him to impose the contract was lie. They have all denied it and several did not even see the letter on which their names were put. 

Saying he doesn't want to break up the NHS is a lie. He has written a book on doing exactly that.
		
Click to expand...

Before accusing someone of lying you really should have some proof.

Sadly for you that does not include merely having different ideological, political views.

You have no idea what his reasons are for changing the junior doctors' contract nor his intentions over negotiations. Only your beliefs.

I might just as easily accuse the BMA of lying since they initially based their argument upon patient safety but ultimately seemed more concerned about pay for unsocial hours.

Again, like yourself, I am basing this upon my view and that is no reason to accuse them (or Jeremy Hunt) of lying.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Before accusing someone of lying you really should have some proof.

Sadly for you that does not include merely having different ideological, political views.

You have no idea what his reasons are for changing the junior doctors' contract nor his intentions over negotiations. Only your beliefs.

I might just as easily accuse the BMA of lying since they initially based their argument upon patient safety but ultimately seemed more concerned about pay for unsocial hours.

Again, like yourself, I am basing this upon my view and that is no reason to accuse them (or Jeremy Hunt) of lying.
		
Click to expand...

You really don't get it, do you?

There is a huge body of proof that the NHS is being prepared for privatisation. It is not even a stealth strategy, it is open and clear. The TTIP, changes to primary legislation to allow any willing provider and pretty much all of the changes to the structure of Trust, not to mention some actual privatisations and the spoken word of numerous Tory (and some Labour) politicians. You must live in a bubble if you think otherwise. Hunt has even written a book on it, and changes to junior doctors contracts, as a prelude to changes to consultant contracts are a part of that. The appointment of people from US healthcare insurers and the creations of a secretive Special Projects Group, as well as numerous experiments in spinning out Trusts and services provide even more evidence. 

It is also belong question that the weekend effect is not due to staffing, nor can be fixed by staffing changes, but are due to case-mix. Even some of Hunt's employees, and authors of the BMJ paper agree. And there is proof that Hunt and the DH manipulated the paper while it was being written to add spin. Even the editor of the journal in which it was published has publicly criticised it.  

The BMA is quite right to defend cuts to doctors pay. There was never any prospect of pay rises, but the effect of moving staff to weekends away from weekdays is damaging to them and to patient care. The Govt spin on increasing staffing and providing a 7 day NHS is a lie. Surely even you can see that?

Now, you may be basing your comments on your views, but mine are based on observation and evidence.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 20, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You really don't get it, do you?.................................

.....................Now, you may be basing your comments on your views, but mine are based on observation and evidence.
		
Click to expand...

It's you that doesn't get it.

Your comments are based upon your view and interpretation of events, perhaps even a vested interest.

Nothing wrong with that but still not sufficient to accuse someone of lying.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh Dear... Alex is "deeply offended" :thup:...


----------



## Ethan (Feb 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			It's you that doesn't get it.

Your comments are based upon your view and interpretation of events, perhaps even a vested interest.

Nothing wrong with that but still not sufficient to accuse someone of lying.
		
Click to expand...

You don't actually have a coherent argument. You just dismiss anyone who doesn't share your extreme opinions as voicing opinions rather than facts. You wouldn't know a fact if it ran up behind you and kicked up up the arse. 

OK, Mr Keen on Facts, tell me the facts you have that the NHS is not being privatised and why Hunt's argument about weekend deaths is correct. I will await your reasoned argument, but won't hold my breath, just in case you are full of hot air. Prove to me I am wrong with facts and evidence. 

As for vested interest, I do not work in the NHS nor have any junior doctor relatives or even friends. I am a medical practitioner, though, who saw the start of this process and a patient in the NHS, and care that it continues to provide a good service at reasonable value.

Please also declare your vested interests and conflicts and the basis for your expertise in this area. I am sure you wouldn't want to be seen as a bare faced hypocrite.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 20, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You don't actually have a coherent argument. You just dismiss anyone who doesn't share your extreme opinions as voicing opinions rather than facts. You wouldn't know a fact if it ran up behind you and kicked up up the arse. 

OK, Mr Keen on Facts, tell me the facts you have that the NHS is not being privatised and why Hunt's argument about weekend deaths is correct. I will await your reasoned argument, but won't hold my breath, just in case you are full of hot air. Prove to me I am wrong with facts and evidence. 

As for vested interest, I do not work in the NHS nor have any junior doctor relatives or even friends. I am a medical practitioner, though, who saw the start of this process and a patient in the NHS, and care that it continues to provide a good service at reasonable value.

Please also declare your vested interests and conflicts and the basis for your expertise in this area. I am sure you wouldn't want to be seen as a bare faced hypocrite.
		
Click to expand...

I am not going to grace your outburst with a reply other than to say that at no time have I expressed any views which could be called extreme, unless, of course, it is considered extreme to disagree with you.

My original statement stands . You accused a politician of lying based upon your view of events differing from his. So not factually based.

Now my pompous little friend I shall bid you good-day (and place you on ignore as it may be best for both of us).


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2016)

Economic migrants having a lefty rant again. How predictable.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2016)

View attachment 18501


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

It may well be an idea for Labour to sit on the side lines, at present, whilst the Tories implode...


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2016)

There are quite a few Labour members, including the present leader who will be voting out.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2016)

I had to laugh with the guy who said............ 'When people talk about UKIP voters, why do I always think of Alan Partridge'.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You really don't get it, do you?

There is a huge body of proof that the NHS is being prepared for privatisation. It is not even a stealth strategy, it is open and clear. The TTIP, changes to primary legislation to allow any willing provider and pretty much all of the changes to the structure of Trust, not to mention some actual privatisations and the spoken word of numerous Tory (and some Labour) politicians. You must live in a bubble if you think otherwise. Hunt has even written a book on it, and changes to junior doctors contracts, as a prelude to changes to consultant contracts are a part of that. The appointment of people from US healthcare insurers and the creations of a secretive Special Projects Group, as well as numerous experiments in spinning out Trusts and services provide even more evidence. 

It is also belong question that the weekend effect is not due to staffing, nor can be fixed by staffing changes, but are due to case-mix. Even some of Hunt's employees, and authors of the BMJ paper agree. And there is proof that Hunt and the DH manipulated the paper while it was being written to add spin. Even the editor of the journal in which it was published has publicly criticised it.  

The BMA is quite right to defend cuts to doctors pay. There was never any prospect of pay rises, but the effect of moving staff to weekends away from weekdays is damaging to them and to patient care. The Govt spin on increasing staffing and providing a 7 day NHS is a lie. Surely even you can see that?

Now, you may be basing your comments on your views, but mine are based on observation and evidence.
		
Click to expand...

Is TTIP not something being negotiated by the EU and not the UK?

The NHS uses private sector services in many cases because it's helpful.  For example : London's Cromwell Hospital, run by Bupa, does a good trade in NHS patients at its gamma knife radiosurgery centre, the NHS only has a handful of such units as it hasn't been considered economically viable to open more. So when demand requires the NHS pays for them to be seen privately.   Every year thousands of NHS patients are treated by the private sector for routine treatments, such as knee and hip operations. This is not because NHS hospitals cannot treat the patients, but because both the last Labour government, the coalition and current Government have encouraged private firms to get involved as a way to reduce waiting times and to offer patients choice.

These things are not out and out privatisation but sensible ways of using all resources available to help patients.  I cannot understand the view that NHS services cannot be contracted, what matters most is that the treatment is free of charge at the point of delivery.    Anyone would think people like Hunt are the Devils children listening to you.

Regarding the Junior Doctors dispute.   There is no doubt that the main issues by the BMA are political and from the Doctors it's about losing out on overtime payments combined with a backwards facing view of weekend working in a service that cries out for it.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There are quite a few Labour members, including the present leader who will be voting out.
		
Click to expand...


Hopefully....

But there's no need for them to get involved with the debate...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I had to laugh with the guy who said............ 'When people talk about UKIP voters, why do I always think of Alan Partridge'.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a fair comment as when I talk about SNP voters I always think of 'Jimmy Krankie'  :rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2016)

I shall vote against anything that Gove, IDS and Grayling vote in favour of.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I shall vote against anything that Gove, IDS and Grayling vote in favour of.
		
Click to expand...



But quite happy to vote with the leader of the pack... Cameron ...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			But quite happy to vote with the leader of the pack... Cameron ...
		
Click to expand...

If Cameron is leader of the Tory splinter group that wishes to stay in the EU...... of course:lol:


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2016)

It would suprise me if every member of the SNP voted in but I doubt if the boss will allow for any declaration of support for the out side.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It would suprise me if every member of the SNP voted in but I doubt if the boss will allow for any declaration of support for the out side.
		
Click to expand...

Their second in command is "deeply offended" that Cameron has the temerity to have a referendum whilst the Scots are also voting in their parliamentary elections...

So, perhaps, they'll be too busy to get involved...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2016)

Amusing little piece.
Amazing how removing the word Europe transforms the article. 


http://wingsoverscotland.com/we-agree-with-michael-gove/


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Amusing little piece.
Amazing how removing the word Europe transforms the article. 


http://wingsoverscotland.com/we-agree-with-michael-gove/

Click to expand...

if you are suggesting independence, again, I believe the scots already made their wishes known last year.

that said, isn't it perverse that so many Scots want independence from the rest of the UK but want to tie themselves to a federal Europe that is looking for central control.... You couldn't make it up could you!!!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			if you are suggesting independence, again, I believe the scots already made their wishes known last year.

that said, isn't it perverse that so many Scots want independence from the rest of the UK but want to tie themselves to a federal Europe that is looking for central control.... You couldn't make it up could you!!!
		
Click to expand...

No, just saying that it is amusing what Gove says with the E word missing.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			if you are suggesting independence, again, I believe the scots already made their wishes known last year.

that said, isn't it perverse that so many Scots want independence from the rest of the UK but want to tie themselves to a federal Europe that is looking for central control.... You couldn't make it up could you!!!
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't sum it up any better


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Couldn't sum it up any better
		
Click to expand...

Well, Hobbit could have got the dates correct for starters.....another 'oversight'' by LP.
Unless you mean that last years Scottish election was the wish of the Scots, but that would be stating the bleeding obvious.:lol:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, Hobbit could have got the dates correct for starters.....another 'oversight'' by LP.
Unless you mean that last years Scottish election was the wish of the Scots, but that would be stating the bleeding obvious.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

What date ? No dates in the post I quoted


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What date ? No dates in the post I quoted
		
Click to expand...

Re-read Hobbits post which you stated....'Couldn't sum it up any better'
I was just pointing out the factual errors.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re-read Hobbits post which you stated....'Couldn't sum it up any better'
I was just pointing out the factual errors.
		
Click to expand...

Really Doon 

Ignoring the "last year" etc because it's pretty just nit picking the premise of the post is spot on


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re-read Hobbits post which you stated....'Couldn't sum it up any better'
I was just pointing out the factual errors.
		
Click to expand...

And being typically obtuse when your original post was found wanting.

You know when you switch out the light and you have that annoying buzz of a mossie in the room......


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really Doon 

Ignoring the "last year" etc because it's pretty just nit picking the premise of the post is spot on
		
Click to expand...

Just following your lead:lol:

On a more serious note, do you not find the total bare faced hypocrisy of the Tory right wing separatists when talking about the UK leaving the EU measured against the reasons for persuading Scotland to stay the UK [in 2014] absolutely hilarious.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And being typically obtuse when your original post was found wanting.

You know when you switch out the light and you have that annoying buzz of a mossie in the room......
		
Click to expand...

My original post was a light hearted observation which you managed to take seriously.:lol:


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really Doon 

Ignoring the "last year" etc because it's pretty just nit picking the premise of the post is spot on
		
Click to expand...

So you demand 'facts', but don't really mind if they aren't correct? Yeah, great idea!

Glitch by Hobbit; not realised by LpP; Caught by Doon. Excuse by LpP. Petty point-scoring tempest in a wineglass!



Hobbit said:



			And being typically obtuse when your original post was found wanting.
...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, I forgot that typical style too - and 'obtuse' was exactly the word that sprang to mind too!


----------



## NWJocko (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just following your lead:lol:

On a more serious note, do you not find the total bare faced hypocrisy of the Tory right wing separatists when talking about the UK leaving the EU measured against the reasons for persuading Scotland to stay the UK [in 2014] absolutely hilarious.
		
Click to expand...

More or less hilarious than the Yes/SNP campaigners views on the EU when compared to their stance during the Independenve referendum?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My original post was a light hearted observation which you managed to take seriously.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry Doon, I take very few of your posts seriously


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just following your lead:lol:

On a more serious note, do you not find the total bare faced hypocrisy of the Tory right wing separatists when talking about the UK leaving the EU measured against the reasons for persuading Scotland to stay the UK [in 2014] absolutely hilarious.
		
Click to expand...

I find all political parties hypocritical

It was funny yesterday listening to Salmond slate Cameron for wanting to break the UK from EU - can't get anymore hypocritical than that


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find all political parties hypocritical
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't sum it up better! :thup: :rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Nicola on the Marr show saying that a Brexit coupled with a strong Scottish IN vote would almost certainly trigger a 2nd referendum.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola on the Marr show saying that a Brexit coupled with a strong Scottish IN vote would almost certainly trigger a 2nd referendum.
		
Click to expand...

It's not up to her though 

Her Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and we vote in then EU referendum as UK


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find all political parties hypocritical
		
Click to expand...


The referendum campaign was always going to be conducted outside of 'normal' party politics....


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola on the Marr show saying that a Brexit coupled with a strong Scottish IN vote would almost certainly trigger a 2nd referendum.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not up to her though 

Her Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and we vote in then EU referendum as UK
		
Click to expand...

Although it would be interesting to see the pro Independence campaign answer questions on the Scottish budget now that the oil price has collapsed. Didn't they base their original forecasts on an oil price of over $100 per barrel?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Although it would be interesting to see the pro Independence campaign answer questions on the Scottish budget now that the oil price has collapsed. Didn't they base their original forecasts on an oil price of over $100 per barrel?
		
Click to expand...

That was from what I can recall what Scotland was to be financed on - oil


----------



## freddielong (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola on the Marr show saying that a Brexit coupled with a strong Scottish IN vote would almost certainly trigger a 2nd referendum.
		
Click to expand...

When is she going to shut up she had her vote she lost, get on with running Scotland and stop talking about another vote, it will not happen while you are in office deal with it.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola on the Marr show saying that a Brexit coupled with a strong Scottish IN vote would almost certainly trigger a 2nd referendum.
		
Click to expand...



And, in the event of there being a universal vote to stay in....
She'll just look elsewhere for a reason to CALL for a second Scottish referendum...
Thought that would've been a given...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			And, in the event of there being a universal vote to stay in....
She'll just look elsewhere for a reason to CALL for a second Scottish referendum...
Thought that would've been a given...
		
Click to expand...

I don't think so, IMO it would be a tactical mistake to go for Indyref 2 without a strong  55%+ poll lead.
An IN vote and a fair and decent end to the financial negotiations will steady the ship.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			And, in the event of there being a universal vote to stay in....
She'll just look elsewhere for a reason to CALL for a second Scottish referendum...
Thought that would've been a given...
		
Click to expand...

Waiting for them to do an opposite flip flop from Herr Corbyn if there is an in vote especially if the majority in Scotland vote for an out.

The straws they clutch at keep being blown away in the wind.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Waiting for them to do an opposite flip flop from Herr Corbyn if there is an in vote especially if the majority in Scotland vote for an out.

The straws they clutch at keep being blown away in the wind.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I do not understand any of that.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Dave is really trying it on now by suggesting we will be 'Safer' if we stay in.   How on earth can he suggest that the EU open borders will do anything to keep us safe.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Dave is really trying it on now by suggesting we will be 'Safer' if we stay in.   How on earth can he suggest that the EU open borders will do anything to keep us safe.
		
Click to expand...

Quite probably via the 'shared intelligence' organised/managed through Europol! 

Of course, the counter-argument is valid too - that an open border can allow terrorists through! However, from the hassle a Tunisian work colleague has had getting back into UK after a couple of trips home to family, the UK definitely does not have open borders! And I'm pretty certain that the openness, or otherwise, of borders will have absolutely no difference to how easily determined terrorists can pass from country to country - EU or otherwise! 

Most of the perpetrators of the Paris attacks in November were French citizens, so border control isn't going to affect that!

Back to the 'safer' or not, they are probably both right to an extent - for the different reasons, but the overall balance is unmeasured/unquantifiable!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Quite probably via the 'shared intelligence' organised/managed through Europol! 

Of course, the counter-argument is valid too - that an open border can allow terrorists through! However, from the hassle a Tunisian work colleague has had getting back into UK after a couple of trips home to family, the UK definitely does not have open borders! And I'm pretty certain that the openness, or otherwise, of borders will have absolutely no difference to how easily determined terrorists can pass from country to country - EU or otherwise! 

Most of the perpetrators of the Paris attacks in November were French citizens, so border control isn't going to affect that!

Back to the 'safer' or not, they are probably both right to an extent - for the different reasons, but the overall balance is unmeasured/unquantifiable!
		
Click to expand...

So to make a big shout that we will be safer is somewhat gilding the lily.   I cant imagine a situation whereby if the UK exits the EU there will not be cross pollination of security data.  I am certain if GCHQ for example had information relating to terrorist activity in France then they would not keep it to themselves.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So to make a big shout that we will be safer is somewhat gilding the lily.   I cant imagine a situation whereby if the UK exits the EU there will not be cross pollination of security data.  I am certain if GCHQ for example had information relating to terrorist activity in France then they would keep it to themselves.
		
Click to expand...

Did I read that correctly or did you make an error with that last line ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did I read that correctly or did you make an error with that last line ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it should have said 'would not keep it to themselves'

Thanks for noticing.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it should have said 'would not keep it to themselves'

Thanks for noticing.
		
Click to expand...

Thank goodness for that.
I mean we do not want this sort of thing http://www.gagbay.com/gag/stop_the_muslin_invasion-646842/


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*So to make a big shout that we will be safer is somewhat gilding the lily*.   I cant imagine a situation whereby if the UK exits the EU there will not be cross pollination of security data.  I am certain if GCHQ for example had information relating to terrorist activity in France then they would not keep it to themselves.
		
Click to expand...

As is saying it will it safer to be out!

Btw. Nothing wrong with gilded lilies! I gave one to my parents for their 50th Wedding Anniversary - with an appropriate note about same! And I don't think it was quite the appropriate metaphor in the first place. Simply 'not the full story' or 'not both sides of the coin' would be more like it - for both arguments!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank goodness for that.
I mean we do not want this sort of thing http://www.gagbay.com/gag/stop_the_muslin_invasion-646842/

Click to expand...

Bit like this

View attachment 18505


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit like this

View attachment 18505

Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl:

Maybe he was from North Yemen!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 21, 2016)

If we vote out, has a timetable been discussed for how long after the result we leave? Is it weeks or months?


----------



## ger147 (Feb 21, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			If we vote out, has a timetable been discussed for how long after the result we leave? Is it weeks or months?
		
Click to expand...

There has been no firm commitment nor is the referendum legally binding for us to leave if the vote goes that way as far as I know.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 21, 2016)

ger147 said:



			There has been no firm commitment nor is the referendum legally binding for us to leave if the vote goes that way as far as I know.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers


----------



## ger147 (Feb 21, 2016)

This might help. Just Googled it so have no idea if it's a neutral and reliable source but the info looks OK to me at first glance...

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/01/19/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank goodness for that.
I mean we do not want this sort of thing http://www.gagbay.com/gag/stop_the_muslin_invasion-646842/

Click to expand...

I wonder what you where really googling to come up with that.


----------



## larmen (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Dave is really trying it on now by suggesting we will be 'Safer' if we stay in.   How on earth can he suggest that the EU open borders will do anything to keep us safe.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think either way is safer or less safe. The UK borders aren't open apart from Ireland. Everywhere else you need a passport to go to anyway. And I wouldn't even be able to guess if more radicalised people living here or in France or in Germany, ... .

In regards to sharing information, I don't think the EU countries would exclude the UK from information, just the same as they would like to continue to receive any from GCHQ. Switzerland isn't unsafe for not being in the U.


What I am really wondering is what happens to EU citizens currently living in the UK, and also what happens to UK citizens who currently live abroad.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder what you where really googling to come up with that. 

Click to expand...

The clue is at the top of the web page


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

ger147 said:



			This might help. Just Googled it so have no idea if it's a neutral and reliable source but the info looks OK to me at first glance...

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/01/19/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/

Click to expand...

That's really only clarification of what the 'rules' - as in Article 50 - mean!

First time I've heard of the concept of a 2nd referendum on this!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The clue is at the top of the web page
		
Click to expand...

Yep it was the GAG bit that worried me.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2016)

Well now Bojo has decided to Brexit, it's gonna be interesting.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm finding Cameron's comments about a 'leap into the unknown' highly amusing. We seemed quite happy to take that leap in 1973.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Yep it was the GAG bit that worried me.
		
Click to expand...

You are aware that it was spelt MUSLIN


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:





Old Skier said:



			Yep it was the GAG bit that worried me.
		
Click to expand...

You are aware that it was spelt MUSLIN

Click to expand...

Whooosh!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 21, 2016)

https://twitter.com/Redpeter99/status/701373659081023489?s=09


----------



## Ethan (Feb 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well now Bojo has decided to Brexit, it's gonna be interesting.
		
Click to expand...

A cynical move, I suspect, positioning him as leader-in-waiting if a Brexit is supported by the referendum and Cameron et al have to resign and hold an election.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			As is saying it will it safer to be out!

Btw. Nothing wrong with gilded lilies! I gave one to my parents for their 50th Wedding Anniversary - with an appropriate note about same! And I don't think it was quite the appropriate metaphor in the first place. Simply 'not the full story' or 'not both sides of the coin' would be more like it - for both arguments! 

Click to expand...

have you not heard that saying before?  It was always (or where I came from) well known metaphor for when someone was exaggerating something.  Maybe not the same in the antipodes .


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are aware that it was spelt MUSLIN

Click to expand...

So now your saying you were googling for some cloth, I see.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			A cynical move, I suspect, positioning him as leader-in-waiting if a Brexit is supported by the referendum and Cameron et al have to resign and hold an election.
		
Click to expand...

I think Cameron is going soon anyway.  He was in a real hurry to get the begging over so he could call a quick referendum, he had plenty of time to carry on and work for a better deal.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2016)

Me and Missis T are on holiday in Italy  when the vote is on, how can we get to vote?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Me and Missis T are on holiday in Italy  when the vote is on, how can we get to vote?
		
Click to expand...

If the vote is out, we might not let you back in!

Where to this time Tashy. We're thinking of Apuglia this year...


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2016)

I know that this campaign is going to get dirty, but I thought Cameron's quote along the lines of " siding with Nigel Farage and George Galloway" had a bit of desperation about it. There are village idiots and educated people in both camps, and everyone else inbetween. 
To vote to stay in just because Farage and Galloway want to get out, smacks of desperation.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			If the vote is out, we might not let you back in!

Where to this time Tashy. We're thinking of Apuglia this year...
		
Click to expand...

For gods sake don't say that, that would be a massive boost to the  Brexit campaign.
We are stopping in Saronno, North of Milan for a week, we have some friends in Ceriano Laghetto so will see them for a few days and then have a drive around. I want to go to Lake Maggiore whilst there.

Missis T somehow came across an area called Terre Cinque ( five towns ) in Liguria. Looks stunning, apparantly they are trying to ban tourists from going. Could be a flight into Pisa and a drive. This then progressed to goin to San Gimignano. originally we were having a week in Puglia and a week in Sicily. But looks like that has been put on the back burner.

Watching "two greedy Italians" earlier, they were in the Italian Alps "Valtelina", went there 13 years ago when my lad was 13 and a goalkeeper for the local rep football team. What a four days that was. Beautiful it was, in fact sod it al take Missis T up there when in Saronno. 
Anyway one night it was about 10.30 and black as the ace of spades. I was looking over the balcony 200 yd straight down into a valley which fed into Valtelina and it started lightning over the mountains, then you could hear the rumble of thunder. 20-25 mins later we were in the middle of it. It was the most fantastic light and sound show I have ever seen. Then about 3 mins to 11 the church bells started ringing in a village, a min later another church bells cracked up. This went on til about five past 11. All the vicars watches must be rubbish, but listening to the church bells and lightning and claps of thunder all around was something I will never forget.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			I know that this campaign is going to get dirty, but I thought Cameron's quote along the lines of " siding with Nigel Farage and George Galloway" had a bit of desperation about it. There are village idiots and educated people in both camps, and everyone else inbetween. 
To vote to stay in just because Farage and Galloway want to get out, smacks of desperation.
		
Click to expand...

For the next four months I am quite looking forward to the two fragments of the Tory party tearing itself apart.
Once the hyena packs have finished, I wonder what will be left.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the next four months I am quite looking forward to the two fragments of the Tory party tearing itself apart.
Once the hyena packs have finished, I wonder what will be left.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think that the two sides will tear themselves apart rather than having a mature debate based on individual's beliefs? Or is it simply wishful thinking on your part?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the next four months I am quite looking forward to the two fragments of the Tory party tearing itself apart.
Once the hyena packs have finished, I wonder what will be left.
		
Click to expand...

I dare say there'll be some blood letting in all the parties. Already heard of dissension in the Labour and SNP ranks.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I dare say there'll be some blood letting in all the parties. Already heard of dissension in the Labour and SNP ranks.
		
Click to expand...

Is the dissention in the SNP that of Jim Sillars?  Sillars wants UK out of Europe to heighten calls for a second independence referendum; Sturgeon doesn't want that pressure as I don't think she wants a 2nd referendum for a good few years.  Despite what some (even on here) seem to think - Sturgeon herself isn't calling for a 2nd referendum - she ALWAYS says that she'll only push for one when the Scottish electorate demands one - and if she has any sense (and she has lots) is likely to interpret 'demands' as polls showing at least 55:45 YES.  

Sillars wants Scotland out of the UK asap and for an independent Scotland to seek EU membership and he thinks that will be easier were Scotland leaving a UK that had it's self the EU.  He reckons that a Scotland that has left a UK that is still in EU will have a harder time getting EU membership.   Both tracks are Scotland independent in the EU - it's in the order and timing that they differ.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is the dissention in the SNP that of Jim Sillars?  Sillars wants UK out of Europe to heighten calls for a second independence referendum; Sturgeon doesn't want that pressure as I don't think she wants a 2nd referendum for a good few years.  Despite what some (even on here) seem to think - Sturgeon herself isn't calling for a 2nd referendum - she ALWAYS says that she'll only push for one when the Scottish electorate demands one - and if she has any sense (and she has lots) is likely to interpret 'demands' as polls showing at least 55:45 YES.  

Sillars wants Scotland out of the UK asap and for an independent Scotland to seek EU membership and he thinks that will be easier were Scotland leaving a UK that had it's self the EU.  He reckons that a Scotland that has left a UK that is still in EU will have a harder time getting EU membership.   Both tracks are Scotland independent in the EU - it's in the order and timing that they differ.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't Sillars, it was a female SNP MP - reported in either the Guardian or Telegraph, and no I don't read the Mail.

I think an independent Scotland would be welcomed with open arms into the EU. After all, with the oil revenue 'v' Scottish GDP the tariff the EU would extract from Scotland would be painful, and the EU would need to balance some of the lost UK contributions from somewhere.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why do you think that the two sides will tear themselves apart rather than having a mature debate based on individual's beliefs? Or is it simply wishful thinking on your part?
		
Click to expand...

1] History
2] They are Tories


----------



## seochris (Feb 22, 2016)

Surprised nobody put a poll up on this one...maybe its not allowed!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2016)

seochris said:



			Surprised nobody put a poll up on this one...maybe its not allowed!
		
Click to expand...

It's in another thread


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sturgeon herself isn't calling for a 2nd referendum - she ALWAYS says that she'll only push for one when the Scottish electorate demands one - and if she has any sense (and she has lots) is likely to interpret 'demands' as polls showing at least 55:45 YES.  

.
		
Click to expand...


May I suggest Ms Sturgeon takes her second in command to one side and explain the 'plan' to him...


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 22, 2016)

Does anyone think that we would actually leave the EU, even if "Leave" wins? Or that DC would use this as more of a bartering tool?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Does anyone think that we would actually leave the EU, even if "Leave" wins? Or that DC would use this as more of a bartering tool?
		
Click to expand...


Still believe [and have indicated previously on this thread] that DC is looking for a vote that will allow him to go back to the EU in Oliver Twist style...


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Does anyone think that we would actually leave the EU, even if "Leave" wins? Or that DC would use this as more of a bartering tool?
		
Click to expand...

The Article 50 clearly says no second vote, but in all honesty I think the EU would come back to the UK with revised terms rather than lose the UK's contribution. A bit of brinksmanship but I'd rather vote out and see what they come back with...

As I've previously stated, I'd welcome the original Common Market organisation without all the federalism and subsequent regulations and laws that have been imposed.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 22, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Still believe [and have indicated previously on this thread] that DC is looking for a vote that will allow him to go back to the EU in Oliver Twist style...
		
Click to expand...

He is taking a huge gamble. If he loses, there will be an uprising of the Brexit wing of the Tories under Boris and they will force Cameron (and Gideon) out, possibly even at the point of a no confidence vote. I think Cameron has overplayed his hand.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Does anyone think that we would actually leave the EU, even if "Leave" wins? Or that DC would use this as more of a bartering tool?
		
Click to expand...

No, It is a once in a lifetime opportunity to totally mess up the UK.

I think the other EU countries see the UK as a bit of a side show, a bit like the drunken uncle at a wedding
If Italy said they would pull out would the majority of the UK be 'boffered'.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

Ethan said:



			He is taking a huge gamble. If he loses, there will be an uprising of the Brexit wing of the Tories under Boris and they will force Cameron (and Gideon) out, possibly even at the point of a no confidence vote. I think Cameron has overplayed his hand.
		
Click to expand...


Yes, it is a gamble on his part...
But, I am fairly confident he personally has a huge safety net to fall into...


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the other EU countries see the UK as a bit of a side show, a bit like the drunken uncle at a wedding
If Italy said they would pull out would the majority of the UK be 'boffered'.
		
Click to expand...


Ummm... I think you'll find much of Europe is looking on, with interest, as to the outcome of this "side show"...


----------



## Ethan (Feb 22, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Yes, it is a gamble on his part...
But, I am fairly confident he personally has a huge safety net to fall into...
		
Click to expand...

Financially, sure, and that post-PM gravy train will start rolling, but he wants to keep political power for a while, political legacies and all that.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Feb 22, 2016)

Wonder what the Job Security rating of a UK MEP or UK Brussels bureaucrat is like this morning?


----------



## Ethan (Feb 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, It is a once in a lifetime opportunity to totally mess up the UK.

I think the other EU countries see the UK as a bit of a side show, a bit like the drunken uncle at a wedding
If Italy said they would pull out would the majority of the UK be 'boffered'.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think UK and Italy are comparable. Italy is still something of a basket case, and is always financially and politically unstable. Many in the EU would be relieved to be shot of Italy not to mention Portugal, Spain and Greece. The UK is a much bigger player and more critical to the EU's future.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Feb 22, 2016)

the other big thing to bear in mind is that Italy Etc are in the Euro, we are not, therefore it is easier for us to leave without A) noticing much difference and B) not destabilising the Euro.

In my mind we put in far more than we get out, if all the Brussels bureaucracy was kyboshed and we kept the contributions, the deficit would come tumbling down


----------



## Junior (Feb 22, 2016)

I watched some more news regarding the referendum yesterdayâ€¦..the actions of the Greek PM were very interesting and emotive.  He stated he would have vetoed any agreement that reduced the number of migrants entering the UK.   If anything, he switched me more towards a â€˜brexitâ€™ vote.    Greece were allowed into the EU despite them not meeting the financial criteria (how can this happen anyway?), they then borrowed substantial amounts from European Banks at low interest rates and simply just refused to pay it back, because they couldnâ€™t afford too.   

I still need more information to make a decision.  I like to understand and have quantified in more detail the trade issue.  What do we export into the EU that would be compromised if we were to leave ?  Has anyone seen any information regarding this yet ?


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2016)

Seems a bit ironic to me that a government that has spent the last 30 odd years fighting, destroying and disregarding unions is now telling us to stay in one &#128563;

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

400+ MP are in the IN camp.
130 Tories and the ONE kipper on the side of the OUT.
Tory party split straight down the middle.

Summary ......Half the Tory party MP's wish to leave, the other half and nearly all of the other party MP's wish to stay.

All of this on the BBC news so it must be correct.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 22, 2016)

Speaking as someone who is off to America in a months time well done everyone with your Little Britain Brexit nonsense.  I've already lost out financially and the election date has only been announced a day ago, think of the financial carnage that will occur if we do exit? 

_'Ooh we can govern ourselves'._  Well whuppy do, best of luck governing the UK with a worthless currency. What you going to do to keep the economy going, sell Ye Olde Anna Hathaways Cottage mugs to each other and a plastic replicas of Big Ben?  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35628733


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 22, 2016)

Junior said:



			I watched some more news regarding the referendum yesterdayâ€¦..the actions of the Greek PM were very interesting and emotive.  He stated he would have vetoed any agreement that reduced the number of migrants entering the UK.   If anything, he switched me more towards a â€˜brexitâ€™ vote.    Greece were allowed into the EU despite them not meeting the financial criteria (how can this happen anyway?), they then borrowed substantial amounts from European Banks at low interest rates and simply just refused to pay it back, because they couldnâ€™t afford too.   

I still need more information to make a decision.  I like to understand and have quantified in more detail the trade issue.  *What do we export into the EU that would be compromised if we were to leave ?  Has anyone seen any information regarding this yet *?
		
Click to expand...

Rumour has it that golf equipment will be more expensive if we leave*.  Just think about that. 








* I made that one up. But then again it seems to be the done thing at the moment, so technically I'm only doing what a lot of politicians seem to be doing.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Speaking as someone who is off to America in a months time well done everyone with your Little Britain Brexit nonsense.  I've already lost out financially and the election date has only been announced a day ago, think of the financial carnage that will occur if we do exit? 

_'Ooh we can govern ourselves'._  Well whuppy do, best of luck governing the UK with a worthless currency. What you going to do to keep the economy going, sell Ye Olde Anna Hathaways Cottage mugs to each other and a plastic replicas of Big Ben?  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35628733

Click to expand...


Herself has a rather smug look having got her Dollars last week...


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			400+ MP are in the IN camp.
130 Tories and the ONE kipper on the side of the OUT.
Tory party split straight down the middle.

Summary ......Half the Tory party MP's wish to leave, the other half and nearly all of the other party MP's wish to stay.

All of this on the BBC news so it must be correct.

Click to expand...

Ah... The village of Westminster...

Believe I saw a headline saying fifty of the Top100 bosses are in favour of in...
Does that mean the other fifty are in favour of Brexit

I wonder if Tony is turning in his grave watching his lad on the telly just now...


----------



## Junior (Feb 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Rumour has it that golf equipment will be more expensive if we leave*.  Just think about that. 






* I made that one up. But then again it seems to be the done thing at the moment, so technically I'm only doing what a lot of politicians seem to be doing.
		
Click to expand...


Very good....that's my mind made up haha


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

Junior said:



			Very good....that's my mind made up haha 

Click to expand...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...on-brexit-concerns/ar-BBpNDj2?ocid=spartandhp

Looks like the investors have made their minds up too.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...on-brexit-concerns/ar-BBpNDj2?ocid=spartandhp

Looks like the investors have made their minds up too.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that you chose to link to that version of the story that suggests it's due to fears over a Brexit rather than one of the more balanced reports that suggest it's due to uncertainty. Also interesting that your story just focusses on one day and forgets to mention that the pound had fallen 17% against the dollar over the last 18 months due to other factors not linked to Brexit. A more cynical person might suggest you ignored the other reports as they don't support your bias on the matter.

I suppose we should be grateful that you are broadening your reading and not just relying on Wings for your stories.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting that you chose to link to that version of the story that suggests it's due to fears over a Brexit rather than one of the more balanced reports that suggest it's due to uncertainty. Also interesting that your story just focusses on one day and forgets to mention that the pound had fallen 17% against the dollar over the last 18 months due to other factors not linked to Brexit. A more cynical person might suggest you ignored the other reports as they don't support your bias on the matter.

I suppose we should be grateful that you are broadening your reading and not just relying on Wings for your stories.
		
Click to expand...

Good tactics though, worked well for Westminster in the Scottish referendum.:lol:


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Seems a bit ironic to me that a government that has spent the last 30 odd years fighting, destroying and disregarding unions is now telling us to stay in one &#63027;

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Bump, no Tekkers from the stay in campaigners.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Speaking as someone who is off to America in a months time well done everyone with your Little Britain Brexit nonsense.  I've already lost out financially and the election date has only been announced a day ago, think of the financial carnage that will occur if we do exit? 

_'Ooh we can govern ourselves'._  Well whuppy do, best of luck governing the UK with a worthless currency. What you going to do to keep the economy going, sell Ye Olde Anna Hathaways Cottage mugs to each other and a plastic replicas of Big Ben?  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35628733

Click to expand...

They lock up yoghurt knitters over there!  It's a Federal offence.   If you think it's that bad here what will you think when Donald gets in the White House?


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They lock up yoghurt knitters over there!  It's a Federal offence.   If you think it's that bad here what will you think when Donald gets in the White House?
		
Click to expand...

I hope that's Donald Duck and not Donald Trump your referring to


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			I hope that's Donald Duck and not Donald Trump your referring to
		
Click to expand...

Both quackers so makes little difference :smirk:


----------



## FairwayDodger (Feb 22, 2016)

Junior said:



			I still need more information to make a decision.  I like to understand and have quantified in more detail the trade issue.  What do we export into the EU that would be compromised if we were to leave ?  Has anyone seen any information regarding this yet ?
		
Click to expand...

Well, for example, if our salmon farmers know anything about the issues faced by their Norwegian colleagues they will be quite concerned.....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2016)

Cameron ignoring Nicola's advice to support the IN vote by not campaigning in Scotland.
Silly boy.


----------



## larmen (Feb 22, 2016)

Junior said:



			I still need more information to make a decision.  I like to understand and have quantified in more detail the trade issue.  What do we export into the EU that would be compromised if we were to leave ?  Has anyone seen any information regarding this yet ?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know about particular industries, but some medium sized companies will miss out on export, and therefore will pay less taxes, have to lay off people and therefore pay less NI contributions, and of course the staff that have to leave will go onto benefits. Thats a 'few' times a couple of hundred people. Britain is quite a mail order country and has a few entrepreneurs in it.

So there is no big car industry, big shipping industry, ... but it might still hurt.


Is it possible that the financial sector, over time, moves itself to Frankfurt or Amsterdam? That could be real pain then.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

larmen said:



			I don't know about particular industries, but some medium sized companies will miss out on export, and therefore will pay less taxes, have to lay off people and therefore pay less NI contributions, and of course the staff that have to leave will go onto benefits. Thats a 'few' times a couple of hundred people. Britain is quite a mail order country and has a few entrepreneurs in it.

So there is no big car industry, big shipping industry, ... but it might still hurt.

Is it possible that the financial sector, over time, moves itself to Frankfurt or Amsterdam? That could be real pain then.
		
Click to expand...

Now theres a scare story !

Please can you quantify why these medium companies will lose out on exports?    Are you suggesting that EU countries will not want to tap into the fifth biggest economy in the World.   Give us a break.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2016)

Liking that some business folk want out to reduce bureaucratic red tape - when a Leave would mean that the red tape for business that exports and imports to and from the EU must inevitably increase.

And IDS struggling to explain how "we'll be more at risk staying in the EU" - and really only just continuing to dig the hole he's dug himself.  He can't admit he was mistaken in saying what he has said - when all the security experts say we benefit from being in EU and Europol.

And then you have two of the leading Leave campaigners being IDS and Grayling - both ministers at the DWP - well - you can tell where they both see the EU interfering with UK policy.  Employment rights,safeguards and benefits, union powers, health and safety.  And with 20+ yrs of Tory government on the horizon in the even of a Leave I would expect to see significant erosion of rights and UK pulling back from or scrapping UK legislation set in the context of the EU legislation in these areas.


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Now theres a scare story !

Please can you quantify why these medium companies will lose out on exports?    Are you suggesting that EU countries will not want to tap into the fifth biggest economy in the World.   Give us a break.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think goods from the uk will not be taxed at export? Yeah we will tax on entry ... But who is paying for it ? Us ... The working people who pay tax. 
My wife runs her own business, she just looked at it and went, oh I will loose all my European customers, because I am priced out of the market. 
On a lighter note ... No oranges, cucumbers or strawberries during the winter, too name but a few items we won't get.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you honestly think goods from the uk will not be taxed at export? Yeah we will tax on entry ... But who is paying for it ? Us ... The working people who pay tax. 
My wife runs her own business, she just looked at it and went, oh I will loose all my European customers, because I am priced out of the market. 
On a lighter note ... No oranges, cucumbers or strawberries during the winter, too name but a few items we won't get.
		
Click to expand...

Oranges, cucumbers and strawberries I can do without but if you had said biscuits I would of voted to stay in. &#128513;


----------



## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cameron ignoring Nicola's advice to support the IN vote by not campaigning in Scotland.
Silly boy.
		
Click to expand...

Quite demeaning of Sturgeon to insult her people like that. I'm sure those north of the border are capable of taking the EU referendum debate separately from party politics.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Quite demeaning of Sturgeon to insult her people like that. I'm sure those north of the border are capable of taking the EU referendum debate separately from party politics.
		
Click to expand...

So a Tory PM campaigning on a EU debate whilst a Scottish Election is taking place is 'not party politics'. yea:lol:


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So a Tory PM campaigning on a EU debate whilst a Scottish Election is taking place is 'not party politics'. yea:lol:
		
Click to expand...

In your opinion.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			In your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously, otherwise I would not have typed it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you honestly think goods from the uk will not be taxed at export? Yeah we will tax on entry ... But who is paying for it ? Us ... The working people who pay tax. 
My wife runs her own business, she just looked at it and went, oh I will loose all my European customers, because I am priced out of the market. 
On a lighter note ... No oranges, cucumbers or strawberries during the winter, too name but a few items we won't get.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think that the EU will place trade controls on the UK?  As I said the UK is a massive market for them and they will not want anything to restrict their goods being sold here.  A suitable free trade arrangement will be in every ones interest and WILL happen.


----------



## StevieT (Feb 23, 2016)

An interesting talk on Radio 4 about this earlier today. I think it'll be a purely emotion decision for most people. What is it until the referendum, 14 weeks?

Not enough time for most people to get informed and with the exception of those with a vested interest in politics etc most will just go with a gut feeling.


----------



## delc (Feb 23, 2016)

I shall be voting for staying in, on the grounds that there is nothing that the EU can do to us that could possibly be worse than anything an unrestrained extreme right-wing Tory Government, or for that matter, an extreme left-wing Labour party, could inflict on us!  :mmm:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			I shall be voting for staying in, on the grounds that there is nothing that the EU can do to us that could possibly be worse than anything an unrestrained extreme right-wing Tory Government, or for that matter, an extreme left-wing Labour party, could inflict on us!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Stop saying sensible things Delc and causing me to agree with you. It's doing my head in as I'm not sure of anything anymore.

I heard Gove moaning that the EU had prevented him from introducing some laws.  To which, based on my respect and knowledge of Gove, I say thank you EU.  Not sure what the law was though, probably compulsory flogging of working class people or something like that.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			I shall be voting for staying in, on the grounds that there is nothing that the EU can do to us that could possibly be worse than anything an unrestrained extreme right-wing Tory Government, or for that matter, an extreme left-wing Labour party, could inflict on us!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

You make it sound like they would take us back to the days of Victorian Mill Owners and sending kids up a chimney, or that we would return to the dark days of the 70's and strikes. In both cases the electorate have the opportunity to change who governs us. 

As much as the extremes of both parties would like to take us down a particular road it won't happen. And, equally, if the electorate have voted in a party, they have given them a mandate to govern us...

For the paranoid out there, there's no one behind you.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You make it sound like they would take us back to the days of Victorian Mill Owners and sending kids up a chimney, or that we would return to the dark days of the 70's and strikes. In both cases the electorate have the opportunity to change who governs us. 

*As much as the extremes of both parties would like to take us down a particular road it won't happen*. And, equally, if the electorate have voted in a party, they have given them a mandate to govern us...

For the paranoid out there, there's no one behind you.
		
Click to expand...

That's very true.  I mean its not as if an extreme political ideology could ever take hold of a major political party in one of the major countries the western free world is it, that would never happen in my lifetime.

Cough Cough Donald Trump and the Republicans Cough Cough.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly think that the EU will place trade controls on the UK?  As I said the UK is a massive market for them and they will not want anything to restrict their goods being sold here.  A suitable free trade arrangement will be in every ones interest and WILL happen.
		
Click to expand...

Hey Socket, great to see you putting your feelings in a song, nice moves there

[video=youtube_share;BBi-KXc0CRk]https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk[/video]


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's very true.  I mean its not as if an extreme political ideology could ever take hold of a major political party in one of the major countries the western free world is it, that would never happen in my lifetime.

Cough Cough Donald Trump and the Republicans Cough Cough.
		
Click to expand...

And that proves what? That another country has a different political mindset? Well, I am truly shocked to hear that... no, wait Russia also has a different mindset, as does Japan, as does China, as does Brazil....

But thanks for pointing that out.:whoo:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And that proves what? That another country has a different political mindset? Well, I am truly shocked to hear that... no, wait Russia also has a different mindset, as does Japan, as does China, as does Brazil....

But thanks for pointing that out.:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't prove anything as as we have established, there are no facts here, just opinions.  

But my point was that British politics is very polarised at the moment and the parties in the middle ground have been wiped out.  And it probably is a fact that both Labour have lurched to the left and the conservatives to the right.  So to me it is not a big leap of imagination to see the extreme voices on both sides becoming more and more 'noisy'.  Like has happened in the US, a country we have probably more in common with than we like to think. Trump is mostly playing the 'make the USA great again and stop the immigrants' riff.  Does that sound at all familiar to any of the arguments of the exit campaigners over here??


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Doesn't prove anything as as we have established, there are no facts here, just opinions.  

But my point was that British politics is very polarised at the moment and the parties in the middle ground have been wiped out.  And it probably is a fact that both Labour have lurched to the left and the conservatives to the right.  So to me it is not a big leap of imagination to see the extreme voices on both sides becoming more and more 'noisy'.  Like has happened in the US, a country we have probably more in common with than we like to think. Trump is mostly playing the 'make the USA great again and stop the immigrants' riff.  Does that sound at all familiar to any of the arguments of the exit campaigners over here??
		
Click to expand...


Hmmm... Believe Cameron is doing his level best to occupy the centre ground previously held by Blair/Brown...

Doing the same as them, proclaiming to be for 'the workers' whilst actually being a puppet for 'the bosses'...
All being ably conducted/assisted by Murd the Turd....


----------



## MarkE (Feb 23, 2016)

I see Cameron has blocked the members of his party who are on the 'Leave' side, from the use of the civil service. So those on his side has full use of civil servants for all the backup help, speech writing, appointments etc, but those opposing him have to do everything for themselves. So much for giving them free reign to promote their side of the issue.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I see Cameron has blocked the members of his party who are on the 'Leave' side, from the use of the civil service. So those on his side has full use of civil servants for all the backup help, speech writing, appointments etc, but those opposing him have to do everything for themselves. So much for giving them free reign to promote their side of the issue.
		
Click to expand...

The function of the Civil Service is to support the government of the day. I believe (last time I checked) that the government position is to campaign to stay in a reformed EU. Can't therefore see this as unreasonable. Imagine if say Labour were in and some loons were using Civil Servants to campaign for say CND......would you have the same opinion?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I see Cameron has blocked the members of his party who are on the 'Leave' side, from the use of the civil service. So those on his side has full use of civil servants for all the backup help, speech writing, appointments etc, but those opposing him have to do everything for themselves. So much for giving them free reign to promote their side of the issue.
		
Click to expand...

Yea.....Just wait until the BBC and UK press get involved, absolute outrage isn't it.


----------



## delc (Feb 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You make it sound like they would take us back to the days of Victorian Mill Owners and sending kids up a chimney, or that we would return to the dark days of the 70's and strikes. In both cases the electorate have the opportunity to change who governs us. 

*As much as the extremes of both parties would like to take us down a particular road it won't happen.* And, equally, if the electorate have voted in a party, they have given them a mandate to govern us...

For the paranoid out there, there's no one behind you.
		
Click to expand...

Wanna bet?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			The function of the Civil Service is to support the government of the day. I believe (last time I checked) that the government position is to campaign to stay in a reformed EU. Can't therefore see this as unreasonable. Imagine if say Labour were in and some loons were using Civil Servants to campaign for say CND......would you have the same opinion?
		
Click to expand...

So, if it is government, rather than merely Cameron & Co, telling me to vote in..
I believe that steels my will, even more, to vote exit...


----------



## MarkE (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			The function of the Civil Service is to support the government of the day. I believe (last time I checked) that the government position is to campaign to stay in a reformed EU. Can't therefore see this as unreasonable. Imagine if say Labour were in and some loons were using Civil Servants to campaign for say CND......would you have the same opinion?
		
Click to expand...

Cameron promised a level playing field to both sides of the argument. This is anything but. We're not talking talking 'Labour and some loons', but rather the most important decision in a generation, so I don't believe one side should have any advantage.
Those mp's usually have full use of the CS and it's being withdrawn. Unfair.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Cameron promised a level playing field to both sides of the argument. This is anything but. We're not talking talking *'Labour and some loons'*, but rather the most important decision in a generation, so I don't believe one side should have any advantage.
Those mp's usually have full use of the CS and it's being withdrawn. Unfair.
		
Click to expand...

Well, we're not talking about labour........but Bojo, IDS, Farage??    Fair enough it's important but it still isn't the job of the civil service to support what isn't government policy. That may not be fair but it's the way it is.


----------



## delc (Feb 23, 2016)

The other EU countries want us to stay in. not least because we are one of the biggest nett financial contributors. Does anybody honestly think they will give us an easy time if we vote to leave?


----------



## MarkE (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Well, we're not talking about labour........but Bojo, IDS, Farage??    Fair enough it's important but it still isn't the job of the civil service to support what isn't government policy. That may not be fair but it's the way it is.
		
Click to expand...

But it will only harm the 'stay' campaign and Cameron in particular if there's even a hint that they are doing anything underhanded to unfairly influence the vote. Fair enough, the CS place is to support government, but in this instance surely in equity, it should have been left in place for both sides.
Cameron would have garnered more brownie points, by stating CS would be available to both sides, even though technically he could have withdrawn it for the 'Leave' campaign.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			The other EU countries want us to stay in. not least because we are one of the biggest nett financial contributors. Does anybody honestly think they will give us an easy time if we vote to leave?  

Click to expand...

Are you really suggesting we should fear being bullied?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Wanna bet?  

Click to expand...

OK.  What odds will you give me that the Conservatives will send Kids up Chimneys?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Wanna bet?  

Click to expand...

:ears:My dad's bigger than your dad:ears:


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			400+ MP are in the IN camp.
130 Tories and the ONE kipper on the side of the OUT.
Tory party split straight down the middle.

Summary ......Half the Tory party MP's wish to leave, the other half and nearly all of the other party MP's wish to stay.

All of this on the BBC news so it must be correct.

Click to expand...

So you have nothing on Labour or SNP then. BBC not to be trusted it seems.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Ah... The village of Westminster...

Believe I saw a headline saying fifty of the Top100 bosses are in favour of in...
Does that mean the other fifty are in favour of Brexit
		
Click to expand...

1/3 FTSe boys want to stay so it looks like 2/3 would like out.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			1/3 FTSe boys want to stay so it looks like 2/3 would like out.
		
Click to expand...

That's a slight misrepresentation! 1/3 have come out in favour of staying, doesn't necessarily mean the remainder have the opposing view. In fact, to date, 0 have come out in favour of leaving.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Wanna bet?  

Click to expand...

With you, on any subject looking at your record.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So you have nothing on Labour or SNP then. BBC not to be trusted it seems.
		
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly it was 9 Labour MP's who wish to separate.
And for the record I believe the one Kipper wishes to leave.

SNP all stayers.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

delc said:



			The other EU countries want us to stay in. not least because we are one of the biggest nett financial contributors. Does anybody honestly think they will give us an easy time if we vote to leave?  

Click to expand...

They want us in for the money, there is already rumblings in Span, Portugal, Italy and Greece about there own out campaign


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP all stayers.
		
Click to expand...

As its a secret ballot we will never know, a bit like our Corbyn who Â£ to a penny will vote out but say he wants in.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a slight misrepresentation! 1/3 have come out in favour of staying, doesn't necessarily mean the remainder have the opposing view. In fact, to date, 0 have come out in favour of leaving.
		
Click to expand...

They were all asked to take part so it's a reasonable assumption.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They were all asked to take part so it's a reasonable assumption.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it is a reasonable assumption that any companies that didn't sign the letter are in favour of leaving.

For example, Tescos and Sainsburys have elected to stay neutral on the matter.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a slight misrepresentation! 1/3 have come out in favour of staying, doesn't necessarily mean the remainder have the opposing view. In fact, to date, 0 have come out in favour of leaving.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point raised earlier on the radio that included in those wanting us to remain in the EU are Vodafone (who are French owned) and Heathrow (Spanish owned). Would be interesting to look at the nationalities of the major shareholders of the other companies that have come out in favour of us staying in.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting point raised earlier on the radio that included in those wanting us to remain in the EU are Vodafone (who are French owned) and Heathrow (Spanish owned). Would be interesting to look at the nationalities of the major shareholders of the other companies that have come out in favour of us staying in.
		
Click to expand...

Some of the companies seemed to employ less that 20 people


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting point raised earlier on the radio that included in those wanting us to remain in the EU are *Vodafone (who are French owned)* *and Heathrow (Spanish owned).* Would be interesting to look at the nationalities of the major shareholders of the other companies that have come out in favour of us staying in.
		
Click to expand...

Last time I looked Vodaphone were a British company.  Plus the major shareholders of these massive companies are mostly pension schemes/investment funds and not especially located in any specific country.  Here's the major shareholders of Ferrovial, the company that owns Heathrow.

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Owner[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Shares[SUP][17][/SUP][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ferrovial[/TD]
[TD]25%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qatar Holding[/TD]
[TD]20%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caisse de dÃ©pÃ´t et placement du QuÃ©bec[/TD]
[TD]12.62%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Government of Singapore Investment Corporation[/TD]
[TD]11.20%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alinda Capital Partners[/TD]
[TD]11.18%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Investment Corporation[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Universities Superannuation Scheme[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'd argue the reason they want us to stay in is that is makes it easier for them to do business and ultimately make more profit for the shareholders.  Simple as that.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

You football fans will of course be aware that, if the leavers get their way, those expensive foreign European footballers will have to apply for a work permit to play in England.
Why would a Supermarket support the IN vote and alienate 35% of their customers.....


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You football fans will of course be aware that, if the leavers get their way, those expensive foreign European footballers will have to apply for a work permit to play in England.
Why would a Supermarket support the IN vote and alienate 35% of their customers.....
		
Click to expand...

And ? There are already plenty of players that have to apply for work permits as it is.

In fact it might also force clubs to look at home players first - so even more reason to vote out


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And ? There are already plenty of players that have to apply for work permits as it is.

In fact it might also force clubs to look at home players first - so even more reason to vote out
		
Click to expand...

How many home grown players currently in most PL squads. We'd never be competitive in Europe again. Not a sound decision on it's own for in/out but an interesting angle


----------



## MarkE (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Last time I looked Vodaphone were a British company.  Plus the major shareholders of these massive companies are mostly pension schemes/investment funds and not especially located in any specific country.  Here's the major shareholders of Ferrovial, the company that owns Heathrow.

I'd argue the reason they want us to stay in is that is makes it easier for them to do business and ultimately make more profit for the shareholders.  Simple as that.
		
Click to expand...

So these massive companies want to remain in the EU for selfish fiscal reasons, not for what's best for the country. No big surprise.  How about if these same companies had to pay a huge membership fee to remain in the club, just like the UK tax payer (Â£10 billion net or so). They surely would'nt be so keen then.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Last time I looked Vodaphone were a British company.  Plus the major shareholders of these massive companies are mostly pension schemes/investment funds and not especially located in any specific country.  Here's the major shareholders of Ferrovial, the company that owns Heathrow.

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Owner[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Shares[SUP][17][/SUP][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ferrovial[/TD]
[TD]25%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qatar Holding[/TD]
[TD]20%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caisse de dÃ©pÃ´t et placement du QuÃ©bec[/TD]
[TD]12.62%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Government of Singapore Investment Corporation[/TD]
[TD]11.20%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alinda Capital Partners[/TD]
[TD]11.18%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Investment Corporation[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Universities Superannuation Scheme[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'd argue the reason they want us to stay in is that is makes it easier for them to do business and ultimately make more profit for the shareholders.  Simple as that.
		
Click to expand...

So the largest shareholder of Heathrow Airport is Spanish then?

How about a few of the others that have signed the letter........

BT â€“ largest shareholder (12% T Mobile â€“ German)
Vodafone - Vittorio Colao, Gerard Kleisterlee, Paolo Bertoluzzo top 3 in company)
O2 â€“ owned by Telefonica (Spanish)
Gatwick â€“ Global Infrastructure Partners â€“ New York
Easyjet â€“ Stelios - Greece
Shell - Dutch
Credit Suisse - Swiss
HSBC â€“ Hing Kong
Airbus â€“ European (French)
AstraZeneca â€“ British/Swedish
Air Asia - Malaysian
BHP Billiton â€“ British/Australian
BMW - German
Cisco - American
Ford (European president)
Goldman Sachs - American
Jaguar Land Rover - Indian
Ocado - American
Petrofac - American
Qinetic - American
Rolls Royce â€“ VW German
Ryanair - Irish
Santander - Spanish
Siemens Manufacturing - German
TalkTalk â€“ Goldman Sachs American
Travelex â€“ Apax Partners UAE
Unilever - Dutch

And that's after just a quick google. It's hardly a list of the great and the good of British businesses.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

MarkE said:



*So these massive companies want to remain in the EU for selfish fiscal reasons, *not for what's best for the country. No big surprise.  How about if these same companies had to pay a huge membership fee to remain in the club, just like the UK tax payer (Â£10 billion net or so). They surely would'nt be so keen then.
		
Click to expand...

Probably yes. But like it or not our economy relies a lot on the inward investment and employment provided by these global companies. I'm not a huge fan of the way they try and avoid taxes and a lot of other things they get up to. But we need them just as much as they need us and we should be doing all we can to keep the UK an attractive long term investment area for them.


----------



## MarkE (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Probably yes. But like it or not our economy relies a lot on the inward investment and employment provided by these global companies. I'm not a huge fan of the way they try and avoid taxes and a lot of other things they get up to. But we need them just as much as they need us and we should be doing all we can to keep the UK an attractive long term investment area for them.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, but there's no reason the UK will not remain (and possibly be enhanced) as an attractive investment area, without the massive drag factor of propping up (along with Germany and France) all of the financially weaker eu nations.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So the largest shareholder of Heathrow Airport is Spanish then?

How about a few of the others that have signed the letter........

BT â€“ largest shareholder (12% T Mobile â€“ German)
Vodafone - Vittorio Colao, Gerard Kleisterlee, Paolo Bertoluzzo top 3 in company)
O2 â€“ owned by Telefonica (Spanish)
Gatwick â€“ Global Infrastructure Partners â€“ New York
Easyjet â€“ Stelios - Greece
Shell - Dutch
Credit Suisse - Swiss
HSBC â€“ Hing Kong
Airbus â€“ European (French)
AstraZeneca â€“ British/Swedish
Air Asia - Malaysian
BHP Billiton â€“ British/Australian
BMW - German
Cisco - American
Ford (European president)
Goldman Sachs - American
Jaguar Land Rover - Indian
Ocado - American
Petrofac - American
Qinetic - American
Rolls Royce â€“ VW German
Ryanair - Irish
Santander - Spanish
Siemens Manufacturing - German
TalkTalk â€“ Goldman Sachs American
Travelex â€“ Apax Partners UAE
Unilever - Dutch

And that's after just a quick google. It's hardly a list of the great and the good of British businesses.
		
Click to expand...

Not 100% sure what your point is?  Large companies on the stock exchange nowadays are global, they are owned by many different institutions in many different countries. I work for a Finnish company that provides employment for over 100 people in this country. Is the point it should only be British companies owned by British people who can possibly comment on this?  

What is the point of pointing out that 3 of the top managers in Vodafone are not British?  It is a massively successful British service company employing 1000s of people in the UK.  As do the others, they employ British workers and pay taxes (well most do) here as well.  Who actually owns them or what nationality the chief exec is is not really here nor there in todays globalised economy

Also you are getting confused between Rolls Royce the small BMW owned car manufacturer and Rolls Royce the very British Derby based global player in power systems and engines.  2 very separate companies.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2016)

I think the list bursts the flimsy argument, rather than supports it.
A bit like saying RBS is a Scottish bank.
We live in a global market now, nationality means very little in business. Where the jobs are is what matters eg Nissan.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 24, 2016)

Bosses of BIG business have threatened to depart in the past...
Yet, have remained here...

Yet, we are to believe them this time apparently ...

They are a bit like politicians...
When do you know they are telling porky's???


Much of our manufacturing has trucked off already anyway...
Because our membership of the EU made it all too easy for them to do so...


In the words of Wolfie "Power to the People" :thup:...

The 'bosses' have got the same number of votes as everyone else... ONE!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not 100% sure what your point is?  Large companies on the stock exchange nowadays are global, they are owned by many different institutions in many different countries. I work for a Finnish company that provides employment for over 100 people in this country. Is the point it should only be British companies owned by British people who can possibly comment on this?  

What is the point of pointing out that 3 of the top managers in Vodafone are not British?  It is a massively successful British service company employing 1000s of people in the UK.  As do the others, they employ British workers and pay taxes (well most do) here as well.  Who actually owns them or what nationality the chief exec is is not really here nor there in todays globalised economy

Also you are getting confused between Rolls Royce the small BMW owned car manufacturer and Rolls Royce the very British Derby based global player in power systems and engines.  2 very separate companies.
		
Click to expand...

My point, as I suspect you actually understand, is that with pretty much all of Europe wanting us to remain in the EU it is hardly surprising that bosses of what are European owned or run companies would come out in favour of us staying in. Such as three of the top bosses at Vodafone hence the reason for mentioning them.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Bosses of BIG business have threatened to depart in the past...
Yet, have remained here...

Yet, we are to believe them this time apparently ...

They are a bit like politicians...
When do you know they are telling porky's???


Much of our manufacturing has trucked off already anyway...
Because our membership of the EU made it all too easy for them to do so...


In the words of Wolfie "Power to the People" :thup:...

The 'bosses' have got the same number of votes as everyone else... ONE!
		
Click to expand...

It's not so much a threat of departure, especially in the short term, but they are saying that being in the EU makes the UK a more attractive place to do business and effectively make more profits for them.  It is in the interests of everyone in the UK that companies based here employ as many people as possible and make as much money as possible. If they can't then having fewer immigrants will mean dick all in the general scheme of things if the economy can not function to the best of its ability.  

I like anyone do not know for a fact that not being in the EU will mean that they will not be able to employ as many people and pay taxes.  But that is what they are saying, so it's then up to people whether to believe them or not. 

As for manufacturing then I imagine a lot has gone to the far east/China due to many factors, mostly down to the fact they have gained the required knowledge and are generally cheaper to employ. Plus I would argue the Conservative economic policies of the 80s and 90s did not help. And I am struggling to see the economic and political argument why us being in the EU has made that easier?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's not so much a threat of departure, especially in the short term, but they are saying that being in the EU makes the UK a more attractive place to do business and effectively make more profits for them.  It is in the interests of everyone in the UK that companies based here employ as many people as possible and make as much money as possible. If they can't then having fewer immigrants will mean dick all in the general scheme of things if the economy can not function to the best of its ability.  

I like anyone do not know for a fact that not being in the EU will mean that they will not be able to employ as many people and pay taxes.  But that is what they are saying, so it's then up to people whether to believe them or not.
		
Click to expand...

Weren't similar claims made at the time there was the debate on whether or not to join the Euro?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			My point, as I suspect you actually understand, is that with pretty much all of Europe wanting us to remain in the EU it is hardly surprising that bosses of what are European owned or run companies would come out in favour of us staying in. Such as three of the top bosses at Vodafone hence the reason for mentioning them.
		
Click to expand...

So the argument is that Vodafone, the second largest mobile telecoms company in the world, the third largest company on the LSE, a British company based in Newbury that operate in over 150 countries, are not basing the reason to want the UK to stay in the EU on compelling economic arguments which they think will be ultimately be beneficial for their shareholders. But on the fact that their current Chief Exec was born in Italy? So of course because of that Vodafone will want the Uk to stay?


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Can someone explain how that prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer.

Big business moves to wherever the tax advantages, manpower costs and government subsides are greatest, we even see businesses moving around the UK because of this.

The EU will never impose a levy on the UK just because they leave, they couldn't afford the loss of trade unless we become a major exporter with nett gains against the EU.

Im also not sure what this leap into the unknown is if we leave - we have been there before. The only real unknown is remaining in as we have no idea what an unelected commission in the EU will impose on us next.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's not so much a threat of departure, especially in the short term, but they are saying that being in the EU makes the UK a more attractive place to do business and effectively make more profits for them.  It is in the interests of everyone in the UK that companies based here employ as many people as possible and make as much money as possible. If they can't then having fewer immigrants will mean dick all in the general scheme of things if the economy can not function to the best of its ability.  

I like anyone do not know for a fact that not being in the EU will mean that they will not be able to employ as many people and pay taxes.  But that is what they are saying, so it's then up to people whether to believe them or not. 

As for manufacturing then I imagine a lot has gone to the far east/China due to many factors, mostly down to the fact they have gained the required knowledge and are generally cheaper to employ. Plus I would argue the Conservative economic policies of the 80s and 90s did not help. And I am struggling to see the economic and political argument why us being in the EU has made that easier?
		
Click to expand...


As I indicated in the other thread despite my rantings I am actually wavering...
Really want to support the [seemingly] lone furrow Kate Hoey is ploughing...
But held back by 1 or 2 of the odious types on the Brexit platform...

What will NEVER sway my opinion is the 'guidance' of Cameron/Blair/Brown/Osborne et al...
Or the utterings of business leaders who HAVE prospered GREATLY through our EU membership and allowed VERY little of this to filter down...

Apologies for capitals... Totally un-necessary I know... Hanging head in shame...

A lot of 'our' food production has moved to the continent as business found it all to easy to do so because being in the club made it that way... Expensive to ship 'everyday' foodstuffs from Far East... 

And, yes I cannot deny MaggieT wreaked a great deal of havoc on the working man/woman...

And finally, hand on heart, not fussed either way about immigration...
As long as they learn my lingo and work with my 'values' rather than against them...

It's a five minute walk to the polling station [for me]... 
Suspect it'll be during those few minutes I'll be making my mind up what way to vote...


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

It appears Mr Corbyn is not overly keen to get involved in the EU In campaign according to opposition ministers. Source - Daily Polotics so it might be rubbish.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the argument is that Vodafone, the second largest mobile telecoms company in the world, the third largest company on the LSE, a British company based in Newbury that operate in over 150 countries, are not basing the reason to want the UK to stay in the EU on compelling economic arguments which they think will be ultimately be beneficial for their shareholders. But on the fact that their current Chief Exec was born in Italy? So of course because of that Vodafone will want the Uk to stay?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not yet convinced that there is a compelling economic argument for staying in the EU so would like to know more about it before deciding which way to vote. You are obviously happy to accept what these companies are saying as it supports your belief that we should stay in the EU. I want to see the facts from both sides of the argument to be able to make an informed decision.

And it is you that has focussed on Vodafone rather than any of the other companies I mentioned. Do you really think a Spanish or Dutch owned company would do anything other than come out on the side of the UK staying in the EU?


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It appears Mr Corbyn is not overly keen to get involved in the EU In campaign according to opposition ministers. Source - Daily Polotics so it might be rubbish.
		
Click to expand...


This is exactly what I was hoping...

There's no need for him to get involved...

Stand aside and leave it all to the tory boys 'n girls...


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			This is exactly what I was hoping...

There's no need for him to get involved...

Stand aside and leave it all to the tory boys 'n girls...
		
Click to expand...

Only because he can be called out as an out man.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Only because he can be called out as an out man.
		
Click to expand...


Not fussed as to his reasons...
As long as he remains faded into grey...

Best opportunity, so far, for Labour to distance themselves from Blair/Brown...
Who were tory boys aside from the red rosettes they falsely wore...


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			... we have no idea what an unelected commission in the EU will impose on us next.
		
Click to expand...

Can you explain what you mean by 'unelected commission'? 

As far as I know - and I'm certainly happy to be corrected - all legislation enacted by the EU has been approved by the EU Parliament -all members of which are elected! There's absolutely no difference between the 'unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels and the unelected bureaucrats in any other Civil Service - Whitehall for example!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Can you explain what you mean by 'unelected commission'? 

As far as I know - and I'm certainly happy to be corrected - all legislation enacted by the EU has been approved by the EU Parliament -all members of which are elected! There's absolutely no difference between the 'unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels and the unelected bureaucrats in any other Civil Service - Whitehall for example!
		
Click to expand...

We can start with acceptance of the budge - were the elected body refused to pass or accept it but the unelected commission have said tough (for over 16 years) that's what it is take it or leave it.  As it shows a black hole of several billions each year that the commissions cannot account for I think that's not a bad area to high light.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			We can start with acceptance of the budge - were the elected body refused to pass or accept it but the unelected commission have said tough (for over 16 years) that's what it is take it or leave it.  As it shows a black hole of several billions each year that the commissions cannot account for I think that's not a bad area to high light.
		
Click to expand...

Nope! While that's certainly an area of (great) concern - presuming you mean 'budget' - that's not* legislation*!!

In fact, it's quite possibly the legislation passed by the elected Parliament that has been causing the overspend! Along with the usual levels of ineptitude and fraud!

Would similar 'black holes' be discovered if the same approach was taken to the likes of PFI?

Try again!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Nope! While that's certainly an area of (great) concern - presuming you mean 'budget' - that's not* legislation*!!

Try again! 

Click to expand...

How can an organisation legislate for anything that requires financing when they don't know what they have to spend or are you in favour of the deep pockets spending policy where you just demand more money when you have spent what you have.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			How can an organisation legislate for anything that requires financing when they don't know what they have to spend or are you in favour of the deep pockets spending policy where you just demand more money when you have spent what you have.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like badly thought out (uncosted) legislation to me! Which is down to the elected Parliament!

Get the elected officials to do their job properly! 

You still haven't given any example of *legislation* by unelected officials!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You still haven't given any example of *legislation* by unelected officials!
		
Click to expand...

Your not a Liverpool fan are you.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Perhaps you should read this link!

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/myths/myths_en.cfm

or this one!

http://johnmccormick.eu/2014/05/three-of-the-most-persistent-myths-about-the-european-union/


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps you should read this link!

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/myths/myths_en.cfm

or this one!

http://johnmccormick.eu/2014/05/three-of-the-most-persistent-about-the-european-union/

Click to expand...

Nice one - the first one appears to be a European commission documents. I unfortunately can only go on news reports stating that the budget has not been signed off by auditors for the last 16 years, I have no other facts to go on.

I also don't think I have mentioned legislation this week and not in this thread but I'm willing to be corrected.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Nice one - the first one appears to be a European commission documents. I unfortunately can only go on news reports stating that the budget has not been signed off by auditors for the last 16 years, I have no other facts to go on.
		
Click to expand...

That 'myth' appears to be debunked in one of the points in the first link! 

Basically...Don't simply believe everything you read in the papers! They have generally selected what suits their viewpoint!



Old Skier said:



			I also don't think I have mentioned legislation this week and not in this thread but I'm willing to be corrected.
		
Click to expand...

So explain how 'unelected bureaucrats' can impose anything - in any different way to that done by 'unelected officials' in UK?


----------



## MarkE (Feb 24, 2016)

We can all post links either for or against an exit. They prove nothing. Michael Gove summed it up in his recent Telegraph section and it's basically what most of the Leave supporters believe.
He said ' I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.  Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.
That's the argument in a nutshell for me.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That 'myth' appears to be debunked in one of the points in the first link! 

Basically...Don't simply believe everything you read in the papers! They have generally selected what suits their viewpoint!
		
Click to expand...

It appears you do as the link was published by the very people have been accused of the budget overspend.

I humbly suggest that the commission have selected what suits their viewpoint.

We will each believe what we want to believe, simple really.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It appears you do as the link was published by the very people have been accused of the budget overspend.

I humbly suggest that the commission have selected what suits their viewpoint.
....
		
Click to expand...

Nope! I adopt a similar evidence-based cynicism to both groups!



Old Skier said:



			We will each believe what we want to believe, simple really.
		
Click to expand...

H'mm! If someone can provide me with appropriate evidence, I'm quite happy to change my vie! You don't appear to be, which is your right of course!

You still haven't answered the question I asked that prompted this (in post 813)! Does that mean you cannot?


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You still haven't answered the question I asked that prompted this (in post 813)! Does that mean you cannot?
		
Click to expand...

My personal view is that the commissioners come from the jobs for the boys/mates school of you do a favour for me and once you have finished in front line Polotics well give you a nice cosy job within the EU, it's turned the Kinnock family into a very wealthy enterprise.

As to changing your view I think you have already (like me) decided which way your voting.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:





Foxholer said:



			You still haven't answered the question I asked that prompted this (in post 813)! Does that mean you cannot?
		
Click to expand...

My personal view is that the commissioners come from the jobs for the boys/mates school of you do a favour for me and once you have finished in front line Polotics well give you a nice cosy job within the EU, it's turned the Kinnock family into a very wealthy enterprise.

As to changing your view I think you have already (like me) decided which way your voting.
		
Click to expand...

So you quote my repeated query about answering the question, but you still don't answer it!

Have you considered becoming a politician?

Or are you simply afraid/unwilling to admit you may be wrong!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2016)

I consider it answered, if it's not acceptable to you or anyone else it's not my problem.

Best move on.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I consider it answered, if it's not acceptable to you or anyone else it's not my problem.

Best move on.
		
Click to expand...

Nope! Merely ignored/avoided!

But indeed, move on - perhaps to the next myth!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not yet convinced that there is a compelling economic argument for staying in the EU so would like to know more about it before deciding which way to vote. You are obviously happy to accept what these companies are saying as it supports your belief that we should stay in the EU. I want to see the facts from both sides of the argument to be able to make an informed decision.

And it is you that has focussed on Vodafone rather than any of the other companies I mentioned. Do you really think a Spanish or Dutch owned company would do anything other than come out on the side of the UK staying in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

All I am saying is that I would like a bit more of an economic argument/opinion why is it best if we come out of the EU.  Rather than some '_well they would say that as they are all foreign anyway_'. 

I will say again the ownership of these large companies is nowhere near as simple as you make out and it is increasingly difficult to say any large company is 'British, French' etc etc as they are all mostly global players and the major shareholders are global.  I would not be surprised if most of these companies are more 'owned' by investors from the the middle and far east nowadays.  More importantly for the UK's economy is where they chose to invest and how many people they employ in certain countries. The actual nuances of who ultimately owns these big company is mostly irrelevant in my opinion.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



*Can someone explain how that prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer.*

Big business moves to wherever the tax advantages, manpower costs and government subsides are greatest, we even see businesses moving around the UK because of this.

The EU will never impose a levy on the UK just because they leave, they couldn't afford the loss of trade unless we become a major exporter with nett gains against the EU.

Im also not sure what this leap into the unknown is if we leave - we have been there before. The only real unknown is remaining in as we have no idea what an unelected commission in the EU will impose on us next.
		
Click to expand...

One word - Globalisation.

Been taking place for hundreds of years but has speeded up enormously over the last 50 years.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

I always find it amusing when the right wingers talk about decisions taken by unelected European officials whilst cheerfully accepting the UK's House of Lords.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always find it amusing when the right wingers talk about decisions taken by unelected European officials whilst cheerfully accepting the UK's House of Lords.
		
Click to expand...


I strongly suspect if you conducted an exit poll at my local conclub the majority would be more than happy to see HoL dispensed with...

Think there's a bit of a cross party 'agreement' on that point...


----------



## Scoobiesnax (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always find it amusing when the right wingers talk about decisions taken by unelected European officials whilst cheerfully accepting the UK's House of Lords.
		
Click to expand...

Was it not a while ago that the left wingers were talking the House of Lords up for their intervention with the tax credit reforms........ only when it suits; eh!


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always find it amusing when the right wingers talk about decisions taken by unelected European officials whilst cheerfully accepting the UK's House of Lords.
		
Click to expand...

It  seems (according to one poster at least) that the HOL is acceptable as most are put in place by elected members of the HOC.


----------



## MarkE (Feb 25, 2016)

I'd be more than happy to the HOL done away with. Freeloaders.

I see the latest immigration figures have been released, another third of a million net. Cameron has again failed miserably to lower the figure to the tens of thousands as promised. Obviously because there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. Still, he can carry on  blaming an ageing population for the pressure on the infrastructure, health, housing, education rather than the 3 million or so extra bodies over the last decade.:thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always find it amusing when the right wingers talk about decisions taken by unelected European officials whilst cheerfully accepting the UK's House of Lords.
		
Click to expand...

Really!  Exactly who are these supporters?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One word - Globalisation.

Been taking place for hundreds of years but has speeded up enormously over the last 50 years.
		
Click to expand...

Please explain how that answered his question?


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			But indeed, move on - perhaps to the next myth! 

Click to expand...

Great knock one out as golfs finished and I need some further entertainment.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how that answered his question?
		
Click to expand...

My understanding of one key aspect of globalisation is that new and lower cost exporters can now compete with the UK and access our traditional markets.  Further many manufacturers are now part of global conglomerates and so do not need to manufacture goods in the UK to address these markets.

Maybe that's just not the case and globalisation hasn't really affected the UK.  And maybe I just find it interesting the coincidence that the fall of in our manufacturing and exports you refer to has occurred at the same time as the huge expansion in globalisation that has occurred over the period since we voted to remain in the EEC.

One thing for sure - the global trading environment today is very different from that of 1975 so harking back to how it was then is I think not a lot of help - not saying that you are btw - but I've heard it said.  Indeed I've heard Leavers citing examples of ho wthe UK traded globally back to Elizabethan - never mind Victorian and pre-EEC - times


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

Scoobiesnax said:



			Was it not a while ago that the left wingers were talking the House of Lords up for their intervention with the tax credit reforms........ only when it suits; eh!
		
Click to expand...

I think they were in shock as a blue moon had just come over the horizon.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!  Exactly who are these supporters?
		
Click to expand...

The ones that wear black stockings and furry collars.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how that answered his question?
		
Click to expand...

Well you could say his statement *prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer *is utter garbage. Here are the stats http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade.

 Prior to 1975 we basically imported and exported bugger all as that was the way the global economy worked, we mostly provided for a domestic market.  Since then the number of imports and exports have both increased http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and we currently export around 418 billion.

So the facts and wrong and then assigning these alleged facts to the EU is just compounding it really.  May as well have said 
*prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, but since the Bay City Rollers released Bye Bye Baby in 75 we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer , *which would make just as much economic sense*.*


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well you could say his statement *prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer *is utter garbage. Here are the stats http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade.

 Prior to 1975 we basically imported and exported bugger all as that was the way the global economy worked, we mostly provided for a domestic market.  Since then the number of imports and exports have both increased http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and we currently export around 418 billion.

So the facts and wrong and then assigning these alleged facts to the EU is just compounding it really.  May as well have said 
*prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, but since the Bay City Rollers released Bye Bye Baby in 75 we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer , *which would make just as much economic sense*.*

Click to expand...


This is amazing. I enjoyed this.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well you could say his statement *prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer *is utter garbage. Here are the stats http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade.

 Prior to 1975 we basically imported and exported bugger all as that was the way the global economy worked, we mostly provided for a domestic market.  Since then the number of imports and exports have both increased http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and we currently export around 418 billion.

So the facts and wrong and then assigning these alleged facts to the EU is just compounding it really.  May as well have said 
*prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, but since the Bay City Rollers released Bye Bye Baby in 75 we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer , *which would make just as much economic sense*.*

Click to expand...

I asked SILH a simple and straight forward question to explain his reasoning.  If you think it apt to turn that into some point scoring, sarcastic mickey taking opportunity then I would ask you why?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well you could say his statement *prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, since joining an ever beuracratic and costly organisation we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer *is utter garbage. Here are the stats http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade.

 Prior to 1975 we basically imported and exported bugger all as that was the way the global economy worked, we mostly provided for a domestic market.  Since then the number of imports and exports have both increased http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and we currently export around 418 billion.

So the facts and wrong and then assigning these alleged facts to the EU is just compounding it really.  May as well have said 
*prior to 75 we were a major importer and exporter, but since the Bay City Rollers released Bye Bye Baby in 75 we have lost most of our export business but we are still a major importer , *which would make just as much economic sense*.*

Click to expand...

Fantastic links Hacker............I do like your style......No 2 on the favourites list.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked SILH a simple and straight forward question to explain his reasoning.  If you think it apt to turn that into some point scoring, sarcastic mickey taking opportunity then I would ask you why?
		
Click to expand...

I was rather taken aback that you seem not to know about globalisation - thanks to @HK for his response.

If you disagree that globalisation has had an impact on UK exports then I'd like to understand why.  For instance I don't remember the collapse of our clothing manufacturing industries being laid at the door of our membership of the EEC and EU.  Rather as far as I can recall it has been the availability of cheap clothing from overseas that killed that industry off - both local UK sales and exports.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

Yes.............I well remember the day when Scotland controlled the world golf club manufacturing business.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was rather taken aback that you seem not to know about globalisation - thanks to @HK for his response.

If you disagree that globalisation has had an impact on UK exports then I'd like to understand why.  For instance I don't remember the collapse of our clothing manufacturing industries being laid at the door of our membership of the EEC and EU.  Rather as far as I can recall it has been the availability of cheap clothing from overseas that killed that industry off - both local UK sales and exports.
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say I didn't understand the concept of Globalisation?    I  just didn't think your reply  to someones previous post gave enough detail by simply saying it was Globalisation, I think you are mixing me up with 'Old Skier's' post


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did I say I didn't understand the concept of Globalisation?    I  just didn't think your reply  to someones previous post gave enough detail by simply saying it was Globalisation, I think you are mixing me up with 'Old Skier's' post
		
Click to expand...

Me mixed up? Quite probably.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Prior to 1975 we basically imported and exported bugger all as that was the way the global economy worked, we mostly provided for a domestic market.  Since then the number of imports and exports have both increased http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and we currently export around 418 billion.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I would agree with both SILH and yourself over the effects of globalisation I think your appreciation of history is slightly awry.

Since WW2 British industry has been encouraged to "Export or die" and for some years the tax system was used to discourage domestic consumption of exportable goods such as motor cars.

In addition once Government found that these controls were no longer politically acceptable the demand for imported goods rose significantly resulting in campaigns such as "I'm Backing Britain" launched, I believe, in 1968.

So really we are in agreement that cheap foreign labour, lack of investment and globalisation in general have been largely responsible for the demise of British manufacturing and not our membership of the EEC/EU.

It's just that the problem has existed for longer than some may think.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked SILH a simple and straight forward question to explain his reasoning.  If you think it apt to turn that into some point scoring, sarcastic mickey taking opportunity* then I would ask you why?*

Click to expand...

Because I am at heart a sad sad individual with no friends in the real world. To be honest life has not really worked out as I expected it would do, so to try and get some self esteem I enjoy pointing out the stupidity of other people on golf forums.  I'm not proud to say it actually made me feel better, getting one over on someone I will never actually meet whilst at the same time allowing me to hide behind a vastly exaggerated internet persona to try and portray the illusion that I have a firm grasp on the economic issues effecting this.

And pedantic point scoring, god forbid you'd ever do that


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Whilst I would agree with both SILH and yourself over the effects of globalisation I think your appreciation of history is slightly awry.

Since WW2 British industry has been encouraged to "Export or die" and for some years the tax system was used to discourage domestic consumption of exportable goods such as motor cars.

In addition once Government found that these controls were no longer politically acceptable the demand for imported goods rose significantly resulting in campaigns such as "I'm Backing Britain" launched, I believe, in 1968.

So really we are in agreement that cheap foreign labour, lack of investment and globalisation in general have been largely responsible for the demise of British manufacturing and not our membership of the EEC/EU.

It's just that the problem has existed for longer than some may think.
		
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly the 'cheap foreign labour' in 1968 was English and working in Germany


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because I am at heart a sad sad individual with no friends in the real world. To be honest life has not really worked out as I expected it would do, so to try and get some self esteem I enjoy pointing out the stupidity of other people on golf forums.  I'm not proud to say it actually made me feel better, getting one over on someone I will never actually meet whilst at the same time allowing me to hide behind a vastly exaggerated internet persona to try and portray the illusion that I have a firm grasp on the economic issues effecting this.

And pedantic point scoring, god forbid you'd ever do that 

Click to expand...

Once more!  It was not my post about pre EU trading and balances, you seem to have taken on yourself to think it was for some reason.  Maybe you preferred to apply some preconceived prejudice rather than actually read the post.

I asked SILH to clarify his reply in an earlier thread and I still dont' understand why you choose to intervene using sarcasm.
I wont escalate the situation any further as it wont be in anyones interest.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If I remember correctly the 'cheap foreign labour' in 1968 was English and working in Germany
		
Click to expand...

I thought Auf Weidersehen Pet started in 1983


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If I remember correctly the 'cheap foreign labour' in 1968 was English and working in Germany
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find that in the 50's & 60's Japanese labour costs were lower than those in the UK.

In addition our clothing industry was starting to suffer from competition with cheaper foreign producers.


----------



## drdel (Mar 1, 2016)

I just think we need to remember the EU was previously called the EC. The 'C' was community but they decided that was not strong enough to describe the 'Union' of states that the creators wanted to achieve - hence the 'U'.

Now Cameron has tried to get the UK exceptional status and not part of a Union; eventually pressure will continue to build until the UK is a full member.

Such a Union will inevitably mean that wealth from the richer countries flows to the poorer nations at a rate controlled by Brussels NOT by trade or national governments.

If you are happy that the UK's economic health and society's rules are dictated by the largely unelected Brussels gang with  expenditure that rises without control then vote to stay in.

Personally I believe the UK will be considerably better off (after a rocky few years) by rejecting the EU. Trade will not be hindered as most EU countries need to sell to the UK and we are currently restricted by the EU in our deals with non-EU countries.

Its funny that both Wales and Scotland wanted devolution because they thought 'local' decisions are more related to their country's needs. The USSR broke up because the 'centre' became remote from the States.

Our membership of NATO etc will be unaffected.

For the sake of future generations I hope we vote to get out of this hugely expensive experiment.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 1, 2016)

drdel said:



			I just think we need to remember the EU was previously called the EC. The 'C' was community but they decided that was not strong enough to describe the 'Union' of states that the creators wanted to achieve - hence the 'U'.

Now Cameron has tried to get the UK exceptional status and not part of a Union; eventually pressure will continue to build until the UK is a full member.

Such a Union will inevitably mean that wealth from the richer countries flows to the poorer nations at a rate controlled by Brussels NOT by trade or national governments.

If you are happy that the UK's economic health and society's rules are dictated by the largely unelected Brussels gang with  expenditure that rises without control then vote to stay in.

Personally I believe the UK will be considerably better off (after a rocky few years) by rejecting the EU. Trade will not be hindered as most EU countries need to sell to the UK and we are currently restricted by the EU in our deals with non-EU countries.

Its funny that both Wales and Scotland wanted devolution because they thought 'local' decisions are more related to their country's needs. The USSR broke up because the 'centre' became remote from the States.

Our membership of NATO etc will be unaffected.

For the sake of future generations I hope we vote to get out of this hugely expensive experiment.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post!

Alas I fear the doomsayers will be along to cry, woe, woe, and thrice woe.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 1, 2016)

If Gove, Farage, Johnson, Galloway, Grayling and Duncan-Smith are for it then, whatever it is, I am against it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Gove, Farage, Johnson, Galloway, Grayling and Duncan-Smith are for it then, whatever it is, I am against it.
		
Click to expand...

If your against it , whatever it is, I'm for it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Excellent post!

Alas I fear the doomsayers will be along to cry, woe, woe, and thrice woe.
		
Click to expand...

Even unto the seventh generation!


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Gove, Farage, Johnson, Galloway, Grayling and Duncan-Smith are for it then, whatever it is, I am against it.
		
Click to expand...

No I think like you they are against it. :lol:


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2016)

As some on hear have argued quite forcefully that the EU is not run but an unelected body of commissioners could they clarify how today the commissioners can announce an additional amount of several billion EU to be spent on the refugee crises.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not arguing against money being spent on the crises, it's more to do with how an unelected body can announce an increase in funding which would mean an increase of contributions by member states without a vote by the elected body taking place?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As some on hear have argued quite forcefully that the EU is not run but an unelected body of commissioners could they clarify how today the commissioners can announce an additional amount of several billion EU to be spent on the refugee crises.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not arguing against money being spent on the crises, it's more to do with how an unelected body can announce an increase in funding which would mean an increase of contributions by member states without a vote by the elected body taking place?
		
Click to expand...

As I understand the commissioners are like an executive board.  They are appointed by the European council who are basically all the heads of state, and then approved by the European Parliament, who are elected by us. I suppose that was thought to be the best way to run it.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			As I understand the commissioners are like an executive board.  They are appointed by the European council who are basically all the heads of state, and then approved by the European Parliament, who are elected by us. I suppose that was thought to be the best way to run it.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, just cannot understand how they have the authority to add to a members contributions with out a vote being taken either by the country which is likely to pay the extra or the 751 MPs that sit in the parliament.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As some on hear have argued quite forcefully that the EU is not run but an unelected body of commissioners could they clarify how today the commissioners can announce an additional amount of several billion EU to be spent on the refugee crises.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not arguing against money being spent on the crises, it's more to do with how an unelected body can announce an increase in funding which would mean an increase of contributions by member states without a vote by the elected body taking place?
		
Click to expand...

By getting approval for the Budget from the EU Parliament - which IS the elected body!

It works in a similar way that Cabinet does wrt Parliament! The differences are that the EU Commissioners are appointed by member states, while Cabinet is appointed by the PM. There have even been instances where (effectively) Cabinet members have not been 'elected' in the first place!

The concept of that the House of Commons is really any more democratic is a serious myth imo! The fact that there are Parties/Whips means that, except for Manifesto items, it's Cabinet that decides legislation. And if you want a demonstration of how little Parliament, as a whole really affects things, then just consider how often The Budget proposals (or any other piece of Cabinet generated legislation) have been rejected - though there have been occasional revolts that have caused changes to be made!

And as far as I can see, that funding decision was made by the EU Council - which is the body of Member Heads of State, so all elected!


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			As I understand the commissioners are like an executive board.  They are appointed by the European council who are basically all the heads of state, and then approved by the European Parliament, who are elected by us. I suppose that was thought to be the best way to run it.
		
Click to expand...


As good a reason as any to stick with my out vote...

A whole bunch of unelected suckarses deciding where my hard earnt gets spent...

No doubt all on mega salaries...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			As good a reason as any to stick with my out vote...

A whole bunch of unelected suckarses deciding where my hard earnt gets spent...

No doubt all on mega salaries...
		
Click to expand...

An element of that is true.  And also an element is exaggeration. And where you sit on the leave/stay will probably depend on which part you most believe.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Thanks, just cannot understand how they have the authority to add to a members contributions *with out a vote being taken either by the country which is likely to pay the extra or the 751 MPs that sit in the parliament*.
		
Click to expand...

There will be, the European Parliament and member states will have to sign off on it.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			An element of that is true.  And also an element is exaggeration. And where you sit on the leave/stay will probably depend on which part you most believe.
		
Click to expand...


The part that I question the most is always... 
How much bureaucracy do we actually need??? 
And, from where I am sitting, the EU just loves piling more and more levels into 'the pie'...
Great if you are getting to eat from it but not so good if you are paying for it...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			The part that I question the most is always... 
How much bureaucracy do we actually need??? 
And, from where I am sitting, the EU just loves piling more and more levels into 'the pie'...
Great if you are getting to eat from it but not so good if you are paying for it...
		
Click to expand...

And I would agree with a lot of that. I just feel that it is a price worth paying for the benefits I think I brings. Just.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2016)

I'm sure we all know how the EU is governed; how decisions are made, and where our elected representatives fit in - but just in case here's a summary

*The European Council *

Acts as the strategic guide for EU policy. It is composed of
the Heads of State or Government of the EUâ€™s member states and the President of
the European Commission; it meets several times a year in what are often termed
â€œEU summits.â€ The European Council is headed by a President, appointed by the
member states to organize the Councilâ€™s work and facilitate consensus.

*The European Commission *

Is essentially the EUâ€™s executive and upholds the
common interest of the EU as a whole. It implements and manages EU decisions
and common policies, ensures that the provisions of the EUâ€™s treaties are carried
out properly, and has the sole right of legislative initiative in most policy areas. It
is composed of 28 Commissioners, one from each country, who are appointed by
agreement among the member states to five-year terms and approved by the
European Parliament. One Commissioner serves as Commission President; the
others hold distinct portfolios (e.g., agriculture, energy, trade). On many issues,
the Commission handles negotiations with outside countries. The Commission is
also the EUâ€™s primary administrative entity.

*The Council of the European Union *(also called the Council of Ministers)

Represents the 28 national governments. The Council enacts legislation, usually
based on proposals put forward by the Commission, and agreed to (in most cases)
by the European Parliament. Different ministers from each country participate in
Council meetings depending on the subject under consideration (e.g., foreign
ministers would meet to discuss the Middle East, agriculture ministers to discuss
farm subsidies). Most decisions are subject to a complex majority voting system,
but some areasâ€”such as foreign and defense policy, taxation, or accepting new
membersâ€”require unanimity. The Presidency of the Council rotates among the
member states, changing every six months; the country holding the Presidency
helps set agenda priorities and organizes most of the work of the Council.

*The European Parliament *

Represents the citizens of the EU. It consists of 751
members who are directly elected for five-year terms (the most recent elections
were in May 2014). Each EU country has a number of seats roughly proportional
to the size of its population. Although the Parliament cannot initiate legislation, it
shares legislative power with the Council of Ministers in many policy areas,
giving it the right to accept, amend, or reject the majority of proposed EU
legislation in a process known as the â€œordinary legislative procedureâ€ or â€œcodecision.â€

The Parliament also decides on the allocation of the EUâ€™s budget
jointly with the Council. Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) caucus
according to political affiliation, rather than nationality; there are eight political
groups and a number of non-attached MEPs.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			The part that I question the most is always... 
How much bureaucracy do we actually need??? 
And, from where I am sitting, the EU just loves piling more and more levels into 'the pie'...
Great if you are getting to eat from it but not so good if you are paying for it...
		
Click to expand...

Now this is the part that the elected folk should be challenging! Though plenty of them are in on the same gravy train.

And while I'm pretty certain that there IS too much (unnecessary) bureaucracy, I'm rather impressed at the relatively low head-count, considering that it covers 27 countries and a huge budget! There seems to be far greater numbers in many parts of the UK Civil Service - the UK equivalent. The NHS is actually something like the 5th largest employer in the world, and there's plenty of  bureaucracy in that organisation!

Do you actually know what the head-count is? Or have you merely been a (possibly willing) victim of the propaganda from the likes of DM and UKIP!


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And I would agree with a lot of that. I just feel that it is a price worth paying for the benefits I think I brings. Just.
		
Click to expand...


As long as folk vote for what they think/believe is right/good for the UK rather than whether they like [or not] the look of the folk on the platforms.. I'd be happy with the result either way...


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Do you actually know what the head-count is? Or have you merely been a (possibly willing) victim of the propaganda from the likes of DM and UKIP!
		
Click to expand...


Only google as a last resort so no... And, have only been a 'victim' to too many wishing to take a dip into my pockets...

Seeing the head of the fisheries commission [or whatever other grand title he may have] on Countryfile a few weeks back told me all I need to know about the EU and bureaucracy...


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			By getting approval for the Budget from the EU Parliament - which IS the elected body!
		
Click to expand...

But the point is that (according to the news item), the new money has already been promised by the commission but no vote has yet been taken in the EU Parliament.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			But the point is that (according to the news item), the new money has already been promised by the commission but no vote has yet been taken in the EU Parliament.
		
Click to expand...

That's because this funding was approved by the EU Council (I believe), which is the body of Heads of States of member countries - the same group that agreed UK's 'deal'! So all elected!

There is also an ongoing budget (2014-2020) that supposedly covers 'normal' issues! And that IS agreed by the EU Parliament - though almost certainly in an equivalent way to that of the UK Budget!


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2016)

When our govt sends money for disaster relief or other such things it doesn't ask parliament for permission, it just does it. Whether or not you agree with what they are doing they are acting no differently than our own govt does in similar situations.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When our govt sends money for disaster relief or other such things it doesn't ask parliament for permission, it just does it. Whether or not you agree with what they are doing they are acting no differently than our own govt does in similar situations.
		
Click to expand...

We have an overseas aid budget for things like disaster relief.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			...
Seeing the head of the fisheries commission [or whatever other grand title he may have] on Countryfile a few weeks back told me all I need to know about the EU and bureaucracy...
		
Click to expand...

Or at least fed your pre-conceived prejudices - which you re perfectly entitled to have btw!

But while you (and I) suspect there is too much bureaucracy, you cannot prove it, therefore simply saying 'there IS....' is invalid!

To quote/paraphrase LpPhil, show me the facts!


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We have an overseas aid budget for things like disaster relief.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! And Â£115M was allocated by the PM (no reference to Parliamentary approval) in September. And a further Â£30m in new funding in January - again no Parliamentary approval!

There was, however, a statement made by the Minister on Feb 8th


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2016)

Ashcroft poll has it level 41% aside.
That's worrying, especially if Cameron invokes 'operation fear'.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm sure we all know how the EU is governed; how decisions are made, and where our elected representatives fit in - but just in case here's a summary

The Parliament also decides on the allocation of the EUâ€™s budget
jointly with the Council. Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) caucus
according to political affiliation, rather than nationality; there are eight political
groups and a number of non-attached MEPs.
		
Click to expand...

You missed the Visigard Bloc. The Eastern European group of countries that actively get together to decide how the will vote on legislation. Not actually, formally, part of the accepted structure of the EU but allowed to get away with it.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 2, 2016)

Its probably already been covered but my question is:

If leaving the EU is now going to be so devastating to the country for many years to come, and given that David Cameron didn't really achieve many concessions from Europe, if he's now being truthful, was he negligent in embarking on such a risky strategy OR are they just conning us as to the risks involved in leaving??


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! And Â£115M was allocated by the PM (no reference to Parliamentary approval) in September. And a further Â£30m in new funding in January - again no Parliamentary approval!

There was, however, a statement made by the Minister on Feb 8th
		
Click to expand...

If it's in the Budget it already has Parliamentary approval.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If it's in the Budget it already has Parliamentary approval.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: Yeah, right!

The overall expenditure has - as in 0.7% of GDP. But the specific recipient certainly doesn't! 

And any 'New Money', of which there was Â£30M, also doesn't - as it wasn't in the Budget!


----------



## MarkE (Mar 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ashcroft poll has it level 41% aside.
That's worrying, especially if Cameron invokes 'operation fear'.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron will only drive the waverers to vote Leave by his constant scaremongering. Nobody is going to be swayed by negativity. Dos'nt he have anything positive to say regarding the merits of staying, rather than constant belittling of opposing views?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Cameron will only drive the waverers to vote Leave by his constant scaremongering. Nobody is going to be swayed by negativity. Dos'nt he have anything positive to say regarding the merits of staying, rather than constant belittling of opposing views?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly my view. When the debate started I was probably 80% in favour of remaining in the EU. Now I would say that I am 50/50 as to which way I will vote and it is mainly due to scaremongering and outright lies being told by politicians campaigning to remain, chiefly David Cameron and more recently I think it was Philip Hammond with claims such as the Calais "Jungle" migrant camp could move to southern England, it could take 10 years to sort out a trade agreement and British holiday makers could be stranded abroad if we vote to leave.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Cameron will only drive the waverers to vote Leave by his constant scaremongering. Nobody is going to be swayed by negativity. Dos'nt he have anything positive to say regarding the merits of staying, rather than constant belittling of opposing views?
		
Click to expand...

You would like to think they learned a lesson with Scotland.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You would like to think they learned a lesson with Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't the vote go the governments way 

And wasn't some of the scare tactics actually factual in the end - oil prices as a prime example


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn't the vote go the governments way 

And wasn't some of the scare tactics actually factual in the end - oil prices as a prime example
		
Click to expand...

You appear to have forgotten that the No campaign went into the referendum with a 21% lead.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You appear to have forgotten that the No campaign went into the referendum with a 21% lead.
		
Click to expand...

Irrelevant - the No campaign won.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl: Yeah, right!

The overall expenditure has - as in 0.7% of GDP. But the specific recipient certainly doesn't! 

And any 'New Money', of which there was Â£30M, also doesn't - as it wasn't in the Budget!
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't need parliamentary approval for each spending decision.  It's not 'New Money' it's just spending out of the pot that has already been allocated.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Irrelevant - the No campaign won.
		
Click to expand...

:lol:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2016)

At some point are the Leave Campaign going to counter a Remain statement of EU benefits and leave risks with something a bit cleverer and constructive than simply stating 'scaremongering'?  

Just today we have had a 'dodgy dossier' (which in itself is just a lazy and hackneyed way of referring to the government document) and the 'scaremongering' complaint aimed at the Email from BMW to all it's Rolls-Royce employees.  How about Leave take such as the document and BMW Email and counter the points made - because I learn nothing from Leave just ignoring these things.

And so we hear Baron Lamont of Lerwick stating with confidence , as if how could we possibly doubt, that the EU will need the UK more than the UK need the EU and so of course trade agreements with no significant barriers/tariffs/bureaucracy will be agreed very quickly - and he makes that statement with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever - from anyone - and that is his counter to the 'dodgy dossier'.  Not really good enough.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't need parliamentary approval for each spending decision. * It's not 'New Money' *it's just spending out of the pot that has already been allocated.



Click to expand...

From the first line of the announcement......

'Britain will provide Â£30million in new funding....'

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ort-for-refugees-arriving-in-europe-in-winter

Or is that a carefully designed piece of announcement-ese?!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			From the first line of the announcement......

'Britain will provide Â£30million in new funding....'

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ort-for-refugees-arriving-in-europe-in-winter

Or is that a carefully designed piece of announcement-ese?!
		
Click to expand...

I dont understand what you are trying to say here!  Are you suggesting the money the UK Government is paying towards support for Syrian refugees does not come from the overseas development fund?   Are you suggesting that the current funding needs to be put before parliament first?

Because it's described as 'New Funding' that means it's an area we have not funded before, it's nothing to do with what budget the money comes from.   It doesn't come from a money tree at the back of Downing street


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At some point are the Leave Campaign going to counter a Remain statement of EU benefits and leave risks with something a bit cleverer and constructive than simply stating 'scaremongering'?  

Just today we have had a 'dodgy dossier' (which in itself is just a lazy and hackneyed way of referring to the government document) and the 'scaremongering' complaint aimed at the Email from BMW to all it's Rolls-Royce employees.  How about Leave take such as the document and BMW Email and counter the points made - because I learn nothing from Leave just ignoring these things.

And so we hear Baron Lamont of Lerwick stating with confidence , as if how could we possibly doubt, that the EU will need the UK more than the UK need the EU and so of course trade agreements with no significant barriers/tariffs/bureaucracy will be agreed very quickly - and he makes that statement with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever - from anyone - and that is his counter to the 'dodgy dossier'.  Not really good enough.
		
Click to expand...

Most of this is subjective balderdash.  The main point here is whether or not you believe your nation has the capabilities to stand on it's own two feet and control it's own destiny.   Whether we will be a bit better or worse off for a while is not what matters in this important issue.   I have faith in my nation more than I have in this smothering alliance that is incapable of making major decisions.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At some point are the Leave Campaign going to counter a Remain statement of EU benefits and leave risks with something a bit cleverer and constructive than simply stating 'scaremongering'?  

Just today we have had a 'dodgy dossier' (which in itself is just a lazy and hackneyed way of referring to the government document) and the 'scaremongering' complaint aimed at the Email from BMW to all it's Rolls-Royce employees.  How about Leave take such as the document and BMW Email and counter the points made - because I learn nothing from Leave just ignoring these things.

And so we hear Baron Lamont of Lerwick stating with confidence , as if how could we possibly doubt, that the EU will need the UK more than the UK need the EU and so of course trade agreements with no significant barriers/tariffs/bureaucracy will be agreed very quickly - and he makes that statement with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever - from anyone - and that is his counter to the 'dodgy dossier'.  Not really good enough.
		
Click to expand...

A number of posters on here have countered the Stay campaign with reasoned arguments, and some emotional ones too. Is it really necessary to trawl through the thread and paraphrase them for you, or maybe you are capable of doing that?

First and foremost, for me, it's about self determination. It's about us deciding what we do, not a group of countries who, quite honestly, are making decisions that in truth have a bias based in what they want for themselves, as we do. It's flawed because of the natural nationalism that exists.

Financially, we get nothing from the EU! Yes, that's right, nothing. We pay in more than we get out. Â£14 billion pounds more! I hear cries of "but the EU funded x&y. No they didn't, we did. Every project that receives EU funding only receives up to a maximum of half the overall cost of the project. And as we're a nett contributor, we're actually funding all of the project.

But what about trade barriers? We import more than we export. If they put barriers in place, we would do the same. Imagine the pressure that industries in an EU country would exert on its government if the governments action led to it being harder to export to the UK. We would also be free to create trade agreements with countries outside of the EU, which we can't currently do. And we'd also be allowed to subsidise industries at levels we determine - I'm sure the steelworkers would have preferred to be told they would receive x subsidy rather than we're not allowed to subsidise you because it's against EU laws.

And then we often read your argument of a Tory government unfettered by EU employment laws - your scaremongering! The workers, and the general populace have proven time and again, via the ballot box and strike action that they are well capable of curbing governments, Tory and Labour. But on the issue of democracy, you want to curb a lawfully elected Tory government by using powers of a third party rather than accept the will of other UK citizens who voted that government in? Really? Really, truly? I find that unpalatable.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A number of posters on here have countered the Stay campaign with reasoned arguments, and some emotional ones too. Is it really necessary to trawl through the thread and paraphrase them for you, or maybe you are capable of doing that?

First and foremost, for me, it's about self determination. It's about us deciding what we do, not a group of countries who, quite honestly, are making decisions that in truth have a bias based in what they want for themselves, as we do. It's flawed because of the natural nationalism that exists.

Financially, we get nothing from the EU! Yes, that's right, nothing. We pay in more than we get out. Â£14 billion pounds more! I hear cries of "but the EU funded x&y. No they didn't, we did. Every project that receives EU funding only receives up to a maximum of half the overall cost of the project. And as we're a nett contributor, we're actually funding all of the project.

But what about trade barriers? We import more than we export. If they put barriers in place, we would do the same. Imagine the pressure that industries in an EU country would exert on its government if the governments action led to it being harder to export to the UK. We would also be free to create trade agreements with countries outside of the EU, which we can't currently do. And we'd also be allowed to subsidise industries at levels we determine - I'm sure the steelworkers would have preferred to be told they would receive x subsidy rather than we're not allowed to subsidise you because it's against EU laws.

And then we often read your argument of a Tory government unfettered by EU employment laws - your scaremongering! The workers, and the general populace have proven time and again, via the ballot box and strike action that they are well capable of curbing governments, Tory and Labour. But on the issue of democracy, you want to curb a lawfully elected Tory government by using powers of a third party rather than accept the will of other UK citizens who voted that government in? Really? Really, truly? I find that unpalatable.
		
Click to expand...

A good argument well explained Brian


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At some point are the Leave Campaign going to counter a Remain statement of EU benefits and leave risks with something a bit cleverer and constructive than simply stating 'scaremongering'?  

Just today we have had a 'dodgy dossier' (which in itself is just a lazy and hackneyed way of referring to the government document) and the 'scaremongering' complaint aimed at the Email from BMW to all it's Rolls-Royce employees.  How about Leave take such as the document and BMW Email and counter the points made - because I learn nothing from Leave just ignoring these things.

And so we hear Baron Lamont of Lerwick stating with confidence , as if how could we possibly doubt, that the EU will need the UK more than the UK need the EU and so of course trade agreements with no significant barriers/tariffs/bureaucracy will be agreed very quickly - and he makes that statement with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever - from anyone - and that is his counter to the 'dodgy dossier'.  Not really good enough.
		
Click to expand...

What do you think of the French Politicians comments about border control and a refugee camp moving from Calasis and into UK ? 

Is that "scaremongering" ?

I think it's valid to suggest that scaremongering happens on both sides of the vote


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A number of posters on here have countered the Stay campaign with reasoned arguments, and some emotional ones too. Is it really necessary to trawl through the thread and paraphrase them for you, or maybe you are capable of doing that?

First and foremost, for me, it's about self determination. It's about us deciding what we do, not a group of countries who, quite honestly, are making decisions that in truth have a bias based in what they want for themselves, as we do. It's flawed because of the natural nationalism that exists.

Financially, we get nothing from the EU! Yes, that's right, nothing. We pay in more than we get out. Â£14 billion pounds more! I hear cries of "but the EU funded x&y. No they didn't, we did. Every project that receives EU funding only receives up to a maximum of half the overall cost of the project. And as we're a nett contributor, we're actually funding all of the project.

But what about trade barriers? We import more than we export. If they put barriers in place, we would do the same. Imagine the pressure that industries in an EU country would exert on its government if the governments action led to it being harder to export to the UK. We would also be free to create trade agreements with countries outside of the EU, which we can't currently do. And we'd also be allowed to subsidise industries at levels we determine - I'm sure the steelworkers would have preferred to be told they would receive x subsidy rather than we're not allowed to subsidise you because it's against EU laws.

And then we often read your argument of a Tory government unfettered by EU employment laws - your scaremongering! The workers, and the general populace have proven time and again, via the ballot box and strike action that they are well capable of curbing governments, Tory and Labour. But on the issue of democracy, you want to curb a lawfully elected Tory government by using powers of a third party rather than accept the will of other UK citizens who voted that government in? Really? Really, truly? I find that unpalatable.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty hard to find fault in that reasoned response


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you think of the French Politicians comments about border control and a refugee camp moving from Calasis and into UK ? 

Is that "scaremongering" ?

I think it's valid to suggest that scaremongering happens on both sides of the vote
		
Click to expand...

The first part isn't scaremongering as I imagine most if not all border controls would move to the UK. We currently have a bilateral agreement with the French for UK border agency staff to be based in Calais and if that agreement were to be cancelled then the border control would return to the UK.

The second part is 100% scaremongering. Cameron has also previously mentioned it. There would be no need for a refugee camp in the UK as under EU law we could return anyone trying to enter the UK illegally straight back to France to be processed there.


----------



## shewy (Mar 3, 2016)

Flood the tunnel


----------



## MarkE (Mar 3, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you think of the French Politicians comments about border control and a refugee camp moving from Calasis and into UK ? 

Is that "scaremongering" ?

I think it's valid to suggest that scaremongering happens on both sides of the vote
		
Click to expand...

If France processed the immigrants correctly there would'nt be an issue. The migrants at the jungle should have been settled in France long ago. As for some French minister trying to influence the way the UK public will vote, just smacks of more desperation from the 'stay' campaign. They really have no qualms about who they get to spread the propaganda and fear.
Border control between uk/France has nothing to do with the eu.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			If France processed the immigrants correctly there would'nt be an issue. The migrants at the jungle should have been settled in France long ago. As for some French minister trying to influence the way the UK public will vote, just smacks of more desperation from the 'stay' campaign. They really have no qualms about who they get to spread the propaganda and fear.
Border control between uk/France has nothing to do with the eu.
		
Click to expand...

Good point and one that tends to be ignored.   France is acting against the international conventions with regards to refugees and asylum seekers.   These people in Calais, Dunkirk etc are either illegal immigrants or refugees/asylum seekers and as such should be dealt with by the French, not just conveniently ignored because they say they want to get to the UK.   There would be no camps in Dover as we would act correctly and either insist they either claimed asylum or we would remove them as illegals and move them to a detention centre.   This French setup is a disgrace.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Good point and one that tends to be ignored.   France is acting against the international conventions with regards to refugees and asylum seekers.   These people in Calais, Dunkirk etc are either illegal immigrants or refugees/asylum seekers and as such should be dealt with by the French, not just conveniently ignored because they say they want to get to the UK.   There would be no camps in Dover as we would act correctly and either insist they either claimed asylum or we would remove them as illegals and move them to a detention centre.   This French setup is a disgrace.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the nations who are acting against the international conventions are those EU member states where the refugees/asylum seekers first arrive as I understood that asylum should be sought in the first state.

However, this is a situation that is far too serious for pointing fingers at each other unless, of course, it fits someone's Francophobe prejudices.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Surely the nations who are acting against the international conventions are those EU member states where the refugees/asylum seekers first arrive as I understood that asylum should be sought in the first state.

However, this is a situation that is far too serious for pointing fingers at each other unless, of course, *it fits someone's Francophobe prejudices.*

Click to expand...

How dare you speak about my cheese eating surrender monkey friends like that. I have no Francophobe prejudices, some of my best friends eat croissants I'll have you know.


----------



## Khamelion (Mar 3, 2016)

Kraxx wrote this about Brexit on his facebook page, it also got copied to Boris Johnsons FB page and a few other different media online media outlets.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A number of posters on here have countered the Stay campaign with reasoned arguments, and some emotional ones too. Is it really necessary to trawl through the thread and paraphrase them for you, or maybe you are capable of doing that?
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate those supporting Leave have made their arguments here - but I was talking about the *Leave Campaign*.  And it is those representing the _Leave Campaign_ (and the _Remain Campaign_) that most voters see and hear.  The reasoned debate going on in this forum is not visible out there.   All am am saying is that I would like to hear more of the _Leave Campaign_ *rebutting *the points being made by _Remain_ - instead of just complaining/claiming 'scaremongering'.  That retort doesn't help *anyone* make an informed decision,.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I appreciate those supporting Leave have made their arguments here - but I was talking about the *Leave Campaign*.  And it is those representing the _Leave Campaign_ (and the _Remain Campaign_) that most voters see and hear.  The reasoned debate going on in this forum is not visible out there.   All am am saying is that I would like to hear more of the _Leave Campaign_ *rebutting *the points being made by _Remain_ - instead of just complaining/claiming 'scaremongering'.  That retort doesn't help *anyone* make an informed decision,.
		
Click to expand...

Read this:

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Surely the nations who are acting against the international conventions are those EU member states where the refugees/asylum seekers first arrive as I understood that asylum should be sought in the first state.

However, this is a situation that is far too serious for pointing fingers at each other unless, of course, it fits someone's Francophobe prejudices.
		
Click to expand...

France needs some fingers pointed at them over their policy in Calais.   If that makes me or anyone a Francophobe then so be it.

I believe there is a committee in Bruxelles who have been doing a study for a few years into  the possible advantages of straight croissants that can be filled with straight bananas.  Not exactly a clincher but will probably add a little sway for the 'STAY' group and undecided voter.


----------



## Khamelion (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Read this:

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/

Click to expand...

When going to the link above I got this




So I didn't bother.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Read this:

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/

Click to expand...

Great - let's hear it from the mouths of the _Leave Campaign_ - most folk won't know of this or won't be bothered to read it.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Surely the nations who are acting against the international conventions are those EU member states where the refugees/asylum seekers first arrive as I understood that asylum should be sought in the first state.

However, this is a situation that is far too serious for pointing fingers at each other unless, of course, it fits someone's Francophobe prejudices.
		
Click to expand...

No Francophobe prejudices here. Just pointing out it is the place of France to sort out the 'jungle', not the UK.  It's not prejudicial to point out France should be doing what they are legally obliged to, rather than trying to palm off the problem to the UK.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

Khamelion said:



			When going to the link above I got this

View attachment 18638


So I didn't bother.
		
Click to expand...

Ok when I try it . Are you using a works computer?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Great - let's hear it from the mouths of the _Leave Campaign_ - most folk won't know of this or won't be bothered to read it.
		
Click to expand...

I dont get your point here?   Is this not what you were asking for?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No Francophobe prejudices here. Just pointing out it is the place of France to sort out the 'jungle', not the UK.  It's not prejudicial to point out France should be doing what they are legally obliged to, rather than trying to palm off the problem to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

They are not legally obliged to deal with this. In law it is the responsibility of the first member state in which the asylum seeker first arrives.

However, it is surely unreasonable to expect Greece to deal with all of them in view of the numbers involved.

It is not a question of palming off a problem.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			France needs some fingers pointed at them over their policy in Calais.   If that makes me or anyone a Francophobe then so be it.

*I believe there is a committee in Bruxelles who have been doing a study for a few years into  the possible advantages of straight croissants that can be filled with straight bananas*.  Not exactly a clincher but will probably add a little sway for the 'STAY' group and undecided voter.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you don't really!

If you do, then that just demonstrates the eager way in which some of those (dare I mention the particular elements of the Press?) that wish to leave will invent propaganda and the gullibility of their followers!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			France needs some fingers pointed at them over their policy in Calais.   If that makes me or anyone a Francophobe then so be it.

I believe there is a committee in Bruxelles who have been doing a study for a few years into  the possible advantages of straight croissants that can be filled with straight bananas.  Not exactly a clincher but will probably add a little sway for the 'STAY' group and undecided voter.
		
Click to expand...

You don't do humour, do you.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			You don't do humour, do you.
		
Click to expand...

Not very well but I try sometimes.


----------



## Khamelion (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok when I try it . Are you using a works computer?
		
Click to expand...

Nope my own home PC


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I'm sure you don't really!

If you do, then that just demonstrates the eager way in which some of those (dare I mention the particular elements of the Press?) that wish to leave will invent propaganda and the gullibility of their followers! 

Click to expand...

Wooooooooooosh!!!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not very well but I try sometimes.
		
Click to expand...

As was said many times during my schooldays: "Must try harder!"


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Wooooooooooosh!!!    

Click to expand...

Nice try! :rofl: 

Check the first sentence of my post! But propaganda is propaganda! And if exaggerated satire contributes, then that's often seized upon by eager folk looking to find something to criticize! Unfortunately, that's one of the privileges that the press (both left and right) has that I find a touch obscene!


----------



## MarkE (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			They are not legally obliged to deal with this. In law it is the responsibility of the first member state in which the asylum seeker first arrives.

However, it is surely unreasonable to expect Greece to deal with all of them in view of the numbers involved.

It is not a question of palming off a problem.
		
Click to expand...

It is where France is concerned. A rich country over twice the size of the UK, with similar populations. They are certainly trying to palm the problem off onto the UK.
I'm not doubting your assertions regarding the state they arrive at first, but we were talking about France and the specific 'jungle' issue.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			It is where France is concerned. A rich country over twice the size of the UK, with similar populations. They are certainly trying to palm the problem off onto the UK.
I'm not doubting your assertions regarding the state they arrive at first, but we were talking about France and the specific 'jungle' issue.
		
Click to expand...

So it is an anti-France thing after all.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Nice try! :rofl: 

Check the first sentence of my post! But propaganda is propaganda! And if exaggerated satire contributes, then that's often seized upon by eager folk looking to find something to criticize! Unfortunately, that's one of the privileges that the press (both left and right) has that I find a touch obscene!
		
Click to expand...

Keep digging :rofl:


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So it is an anti-France thing after all.
		
Click to expand...

Not anti-France but more anti-French.  They have quite a nice country.

How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb? 
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So it is an anti-France thing after all.
		
Click to expand...

What's anti-France about it?  The issue is centered in France, could be any country but it's not. I'm not particularly anti anybody, just pro UK.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			What's anti-France about it?  The issue is centered in France, could be any country but it's not. I'm not particularly anti anybody, just pro UK.
		
Click to expand...

But what is it that France are doing wrong.

These people are in a "camp" in France but wish to seek asylum in the UK. The French authorities are allowing UK Border Authority officials to operate on French soil.

Just what do you think is wrong or against our interests in the actions of the French. They (like us) have had this problem for many years now.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2016)

The French authorities should be processing these people to find out if they are genuine asylum seekers, should be returned to their home country or should be returned to the country that they entered France from. What they shouldn't be doing is allowing a camp to be established in Calais and basically hoping that the majority will make an illegal crossing to southern England so that the French can wash their hands of the problem.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The French authorities should be processing these people to find out if they are genuine asylum seekers, should be returned to their home country or should be returned to the country that they entered France from. What they shouldn't be doing is allowing a camp to be established in Calais and basically hoping that the majority will make an illegal crossing to southern England so that the French can wash their hands of the problem.
		
Click to expand...

If that were true the French authorities would not be spending millions and committing extensive resources trying to secure the Tunnel and other crossings.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But what is it that France are doing wrong.

These people are in a "camp" in France but wish to seek asylum in the UK. The French authorities are allowing UK Border Authority officials to operate on French soil.

Just what do you think is wrong or against our interests in the actions of the French. They (like us) have had this problem for many years now.
		
Click to expand...

I think that was explained.   France are sitting back and allowing illegal immigrants to exist in their country rather than taking a proactive approach.  If these people were in the UK trying to get into France we would insist they either claimed asylum or we would asses them as illegal immigrants.   We would then either give them refuge or take them into custody and look into sending them home.   We would not leave them hanging around in camps trying to jump into the back of trucks going to France.   The French are coping out IMO.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think that was explained.   France are sitting back and allowing illegal immigrants to exist in their country rather than taking a proactive approach.  If these people were in the UK trying to get into France we would insist they either claimed asylum or we would asses them as illegal immigrants.   We would then either give them refuge or take them into custody and look into sending them home.   We would not leave them hanging around in camps trying to jump into the back of trucks going to France.   The French are coping out IMO.
		
Click to expand...

But that is purely a hypothesis.

Neither you nor I have any idea how we would deal with such numbers if the roles were reversed.

 Indeed with the cuts that the Government has made to the Border Authority's budget it might be reasonable to assume that we would not be able to cope any better than any other country.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If that were true the French authorities would not be spending millions and committing extensive resources trying to secure the Tunnel and other crossings.
		
Click to expand...

Did you miss the news today that we have given the French an extra Â£17 million to deal with the problems in Calais? No idea how much the French are spending but we seem to be regularly sending more money their way to deal with the issue.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But that is purely a hypothesis.

Neither you nor I have any idea how we would deal with such numbers if the roles were reversed.

* Indeed with the cuts that the Government has made to the Border Authority's budget it might be reasonable to assume that we would not be able to cope any better than any other country*.
		
Click to expand...

The UK processed 25,771 Asylum applications in 2015.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2016)

Just from a quick google search the UK signed an agreement in July 2015 to pay Â£7 million over two years on top of Â£2 million for a secure area for UK lorries and Â£7 million for other security measures. This seems to be on top of Â£12 million over 3 years pledged last autumn. So there's Â£28 million that the UK have paid and that is without the extra Â£17 million pledged today. Â£45 million given or pledged since the middle of last year. It's not like the French are having to deal with it all on their own is it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33992952


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK processed 25,771 Asylum applications in 2015.
		
Click to expand...

11,600 (41%) granted (to complete the picture on asylum seekers for year ending June 2015)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-april-to-june-2015/asylum


----------



## MarkE (Mar 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But what is it that France are doing wrong.

These people are in a "camp" in France but wish to seek asylum in the UK. The French authorities are allowing UK Border Authority officials to operate on French soil.

Just what do you think is wrong or against our interests in the actions of the French. They (like us) have had this problem for many years now.
		
Click to expand...

As I have already mentioned, France are neglecting to carry out their responsibilities to the migrants, preferring to let them gather in Calais and take their chances getting to the UK. 
We could argue the toss forever, but the initial point was French ministers issuing veiled threats to the UK public to encourage a 'Stay' vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			11,600 (41%) granted (to complete the picture on asylum seekers for year ending June 2015)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-april-to-june-2015/asylum

Click to expand...

The point was in reply to a suggestion that we would not be able to cope with such numbers.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The point was in reply to a suggestion that we would not be able to cope with such numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Which is fine - but just completing the picture showing numbers granted asylum


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2016)

Germany and France seem more concerned about us leaving than many around here it seems. You would think they would jump at the chance, especially France who stopped us joining the old Common Market.

Or is it they are just after our money.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 4, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just from a quick google search the UK signed an agreement in July 2015 to pay Â£7 million over two years on top of Â£2 million for a secure area for UK lorries and Â£7 million for other security measures. This seems to be on top of Â£12 million over 3 years pledged last autumn. So there's Â£28 million that the UK have paid and that is without the extra Â£17 million pledged today. Â£45 million given or pledged since the middle of last year. It's not like the French are having to deal with it all on their own is it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33992952

Click to expand...

I certainly have not suggested that they are.

My point all along has been that this is a global problem requiring global solutions rather than petty squabbles over levels of UK/French involvement.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2016)

I see that the director General of the British Chamber of Commerce has been suspended for suggesting that the UK might be better off leaving the EU. The reason given is that he "breached the group's official position of neutrality" despite making it clear the views were his only personal opinions. I wonder if he would've been suspended if his personal opinion had been to remain in the EU? There are suggestions that "pressure from Downing Street" is behind the decision to suspend him. Will be interesting to see if there is any evidence that shows No. 10 did get involved as that might push some of the undecided voters towards a leave vote.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see that the director General of the British Chamber of Commerce has been suspended for suggesting that the UK might be better off leaving the EU. The reason given is that he "breached the group's official position of neutrality" despite making it clear the views were his only personal opinions. I wonder if he would've been suspended if his personal opinion had been to remain in the EU? There are suggestions that "pressure from Downing Street" is behind the decision to suspend him. Will be interesting to see if there is any evidence that shows No. 10 did get involved as that might push some of the undecided voters towards a leave vote.
		
Click to expand...


Q. How do you prove a negative?

A. You can't. That is why we end up with conspiracy theories.

BCC had already decided its policy was to remain neutral as its membership appears to be split 60/40 in favour of staying in.

If the DG decides to unilaterally ignore that decision it is hardly surprising if he is then disciplined by his employers.

And to think; the Out campaign is the one accusing the In supporters of running "scare stories".


----------



## Fish (Mar 6, 2016)

I love Boris, he constantly attempted to get over his point with Andrew Marr so people not fully understanding of the single currency and other issues, hopefully understood it a bit better, there's no doubt in my mind that he cares and is passionate about the UK.  I want to hear more about the things that get wrapped up and delayed by Europe that won't ever, or hardly at all, affect Europe, like our tunnels or tipper trucks, yet they can have a say which then affects us and not them.  

Cameron came back with nothing of any significance as we can't do anything or change anything or challenge anything once the dog wags our tail, it's a resounding out for me, lets get the gagging orders lifted and hear what's really happening out there and stop the scaremongering.

I want my FREEEEEDOM..:thup:


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 6, 2016)

One of the complaints of the Out campaign is the amount of "red tape" and regulation that comes out of Brussels and I agree that, at times, it can seem overpowering.

However, much of those rules that folks moan about actually emanate from Westminster and will continue to do so even if we leave the EU.

Those rules are often determined by Whitehall Civil Servants, what are referred to as faceless, unelected bureaucrats when talking about Europe, and really I cannot see any difference between a Civil Servant from London and one from Brussels.

Each will present the legislation to the politicians for them to sign off and endorse. Minor legislation, which is how the politicos see most of this, is thus likely to be no different if we are In or Out.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			One of the complaints of the Out campaign is the amount of "red tape" and regulation that comes out of Brussels and I agree that, at times, it can seem overpowering.

However, much of those rules that folks moan about actually emanate from Westminster and will continue to do so even if we leave the EU.

Those rules are often determined by Whitehall Civil Servants, what are referred to as faceless, unelected bureaucrats when talking about Europe, and really I cannot see any difference between a Civil Servant from London and one from Brussels.

Each will present the legislation to the politicians for them to sign off and endorse. Minor legislation, which is how the politicos see most of this, is thus likely to be no different if we are In or Out.
		
Click to expand...

WRONG! The government of the day decides what they want to implement, and then asks the Civil Service to write it up in legalese.

The laws from the EU are decided by all 28 states, or is it 26? We might propose what we feel is a decent idea only for the others to water it down. And we do the same to someone else's proposal. The end result is no one gets what they want, only a watered down version.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Those rules are often determined by Whitehall Civil Servants, what are referred to as faceless, unelected bureaucrats when talking about Europe, and really I cannot see any difference between a Civil Servant from London and one from Brussels.
		
Click to expand...


Well, hopefully, the faceless ones in Whitehall will have the 'needs' of the UK in the forefront of the decision making rather than how to appease 27 others at the same time...

It was a typical Boris performance.... No real substance... Totally contradictory...

Mervyn King was a more interesting interview...


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			WRONG! The government of the day decides what they want to implement, and then asks the Civil Service to write it up in legalese.

The laws from the EU are decided by all 28 states, or is it 26? We might propose what we feel is a decent idea only for the others to water it down. And we do the same to someone else's proposal. The end result is no one gets what they want, only a watered down version.
		
Click to expand...

On policy type legislation I agree but issues such as Health & Safety etc; do not receive the same (if any) Ministerial input. Ministers are transient and do not have the knowledge or time to get that involved.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Q. How do you prove a negative?

A. You can't. That is why we end up with conspiracy theories.

BCC had already decided its policy was to remain neutral as its membership appears to be split 60/40 in favour of staying in.

If the DG decides to unilaterally ignore that decision it is hardly surprising if he is then disciplined by his employers.

And to think; the Out campaign is the one accusing the In supporters of running "scare stories".
		
Click to expand...

Loving Boris making out that the suspension of the chairman of the BCC is more Project Fear.  Actually not loving it at all - it's tedious this _Project Leave _thing choosing to make 'whatever' part of _Project Fear_.  The chairman stepped over the line of complete neutrality regardless of whether he said it is his personal view or not - sometimes in certain positions there are some things you just can't say.  

Anyway - don't know what Boris is worried about - _Project Leave_ should be delighted as this will surely free the ex-chairman up to expound and elaborate upon his 'personal views'


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Loving Boris making out that the suspension of the chairman of the BCC is more Project Fear.  Actually not loving it at all - it's tedious this _Project Leave _thing choosing to make 'whatever' part of _Project Fear_.  The chairman stepped over the line of complete neutrality regardless of whether he said it is his personal view or not - sometimes in certain positions there are some things you just can't say.  

Anyway - don't know what Boris is worried about - _Project Leave_ should be delighted as this will surely free the ex-chairman up to expound and elaborate upon his 'personal views'
		
Click to expand...

Im confused - I have heard fear and and scaremongering from both the "outs" and "ins" so which side have you given the pet name "Project Fear" ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im confused - I have heard fear and and scaremongering from both the "outs" and "ins" so which side have you given the pet name "Project Fear" ?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry??


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry??
		
Click to expand...

Just asking which side have you given Project Fear too ? As both sides seem to be playing the fear and scaremongering game


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just asking which side have you given Project Fear too ? As both sides seem to be playing the fear and scaremongering game
		
Click to expand...

Only one side - _Leave _- talks about _Project Fear_

Maybe _Remain_ should start taking about _Project Deluded_


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Loving Boris making out that the suspension of the chairman of the BCC is more Project Fear.  Actually not loving it at all - it's tedious this _Project Leave _thing choosing to make 'whatever' part of _Project Fear_.  The chairman stepped over the line of complete neutrality regardless of whether he said it is his personal view or not - sometimes in certain positions there are some things you just can't say.  

Anyway - don't know what Boris is worried about - _Project Leave_ should be delighted as this will surely free the ex-chairman up to expound and elaborate upon his 'personal views'
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with your first paragraph, and earlier posts about we need to know the benefits of both options.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only one side - _Leave _- talks about _Project Fear_

Maybe _Remain_ should start taking about _Project Deluded_

Click to expand...

maybe the leave campaigners have nicknamed it project fear, but I feel that David Cameron's projection of 'fear' is unworthy of a PM.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			but I feel that David Cameron's projection of 'fear' is unworthy of a PM.
		
Click to expand...


Harold Wilson showed a bit of class, in '75, by more less staying out of the debate...

Feel DaveCam should've followed his lead...


----------



## MarkE (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Those rules are often determined by Whitehall Civil Servants, what are referred to as faceless, unelected bureaucrats when talking about Europe, and really I cannot see any difference between a Civil Servant from London and one from Brussels.
		
Click to expand...

Really? You can't see the difference with us setting our own rules and laws, or the same being set by foreigners who may not have the UK's best interest at heart.:mmm:


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Really? You can't see the difference with us setting our own rules and laws, or the same being set by foreigners who may not have the UK's best interest at heart.:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

As I said, but obviously not clearly enough for you, I find it amusing that the Out campaigners are complaining about the amount of regulations and red tape and suggest that there will be any less if we leave.

I don't really care who sets the rules my point is that there will be just as much intervention by the State whether we are In or Out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only one side - _Leave _- talks about _Project Fear_

Maybe _Remain_ should start taking about _Project Deluded_

Click to expand...

David cameron has said that to leave the EU is a step into the dark and the campaign have no sound policy on how we would trade with the EU or manage our borders.

I would put it that this is his fault.  His negotiations with the EU should have taken much longer and he should have discussed things like trade arrangements and border checks if we were to exit.   He is the Prime Minister and as such should be looking to support his country in what ever direction the electorate deems to take us.  He has come down a great deal in my estimations on his handling of this matter and I think he has damaged his reputation such that whatever the outcome of the referendum he should stand down.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2016)

I was also disgusted as the Prime Minister of the UK stood shoulder to shoulder with the French President as he made threats against us if we decided to leave the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			As I said, but obviously not clearly enough for you, I find it amusing that the Out campaigners are complaining about the amount of regulations and red tape and suggest that there will be any less if we leave.

I don't really care who sets the rules my point is that there will be just as much intervention by the State whether we are In or Out.
		
Click to expand...

Absolute implication from _Leave _ is that EU bureaucracy is a big problem for many companies and that by leaving then that bureaucracy will be much less.  But as _Leave_ can't tell us what sort of relationship UK will have with the EU - or indeed what relationship they'd _like _to have I struggle to understand how they can say that there will be less bureaucracy.  

Well of course the thing is the reason they don't tell us any detail about any deal is simply they can't.  They just put anything that challenges them on the nature of the working relationship UK will have with the EU into the _Project Fear _ camp and then claim that the EU needs us more than we need the EU so a 'deal will be struck'.  Well that at least is true.  But ask what deal and how long it'll take to agree - and then ask what the UK might have to pay (financially and in other ways) for that deal to be made and what bureaucracy UK companies would face - and again nothing.  They have absolutely nothing to say other than aspiration founded upon anger, frustration and delusion.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			As I said, but obviously not clearly enough for you, I find it amusing that the Out campaigners are complaining about the amount of regulations and red tape and suggest that there will be any less if we leave.

I don't really care who sets the rules my point is that there will be just as much intervention by the State whether we are In or Out.
		
Click to expand...

Quite clear, but I was'nt commenting on red tape, rather about who set's our laws. I find it amusing that Stay campaigners don't care about our sovereignty and are happy for the EU to set OUR laws and rules.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Q. How do you prove a negative?

A. You can't. That is why we end up with conspiracy theories.

BCC had already decided its policy was to remain neutral as its membership appears to be split 60/40 in favour of staying in.

If the DG decides to unilaterally ignore that decision it is hardly surprising if he is then disciplined by his employers.

And to think; the Out campaign is the one accusing the In supporters of running "scare stories".
		
Click to expand...

No idea what you mean by proving a negative and it seems very Stalinist for a person not to be able express his own personal view of a situation. What happened to free speech? My employer might hold a different view to me but that doesn't mean I couldn't or shouldn't be allowed to hold my particular view and express that view as long as it is made clear that it is only my view and not that of the organisation I work for.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Quite clear, but I was'nt commenting on red tape, rather about who set's our laws. I find it amusing that Stay campaigners don't care about our sovereignty and are happy for the EU to set OUR laws and rules.
		
Click to expand...

Try reading this! https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

I contend that the virtually all of the 53% figure will STILL BE REQUIRED TO BE ADHERED TO for anyone with any contact with EU, particularly through trade. However, equivalent regulations WILL ALSO BE REQUIRED BY UK to cover the same areas! So leving will actually generate MORE regulations and red tape!

The additional cost required to produce/maintain/administer these regulations would likely make up a considerable chunk of the Â£10Bn/year that membership of the EU actually costs UK. It could almost be argued that membership of EU is actually a 'cost saving' exercise!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			No idea what you mean by proving a negative and it seems very Stalinist for a person not to be able express his own personal view of a situation. What happened to free speech? My employer might hold a different view to me but that doesn't mean I couldn't or shouldn't be allowed to hold my particular view and express that view as long as it is made clear that it is only my view and not that of the organisation I work for.
		
Click to expand...

Quite simple really; Number 10 may say that there was no pressure applied but BoJo and his friends say "They would say that wouldn't they!" Nudge,nudge; wink, wink.

How does Number 10 prove they did not apply pressure.

As to your other point I agree every employee is entitled to have and express their own personal views. 

However, he was being interviewed in his capacity as Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce at the time of their Annual Conference so it is understandable if his employers found his behaviour inappropriate.

I would add that it would have been similarly inappropriate if he had stated a view in favour of remaining in light of the BCC's stated position of neutrality on the issue.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Quite simple really; Number 10 may say that there was no pressure applied but BoJo and his friends say "They would say that wouldn't they!" Nudge,nudge; wink, wink.

How does Number 10 prove they did not apply pressure.

As to your other point I agree every employee is entitled to have and express their own personal views. 

However, he was being interviewed in his capacity as Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce at the time of their Annual Conference so it is understandable if his employers found his behaviour inappropriate.

I would add that it would have been similarly inappropriate if he had stated a view in favour of remaining in light of the BCC's stated position of neutrality on the issue.
		
Click to expand...

For your first point I wasn't asking for No. 10 to prove that they hadn't done anything. Was saying that if the leave campaign were able to prove that pressure HAD been applied it could change people's intentions with the vote. So it was down to the leave campaign to prove it had happened rather than the remain campaign to prove it hadn't.

For the second point then maybe it is a bit more understandable. I wasn't aware of what he was being interviewed for just that the story I saw on the BBC (I think) said that he had said it was only his personal view and not that of his employers.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Try reading this! https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

I contend that the virtually all of the 53% figure will STILL BE REQUIRED TO BE ADHERED TO for anyone with any contact with EU, particularly through trade. However, equivalent regulations WILL ALSO BE REQUIRED BY UK to cover the same areas! So leving will actually generate MORE regulations and red tape!

The additional cost required to produce/maintain/administer these regulations would likely make up a considerable chunk of the Â£10Bn/year that membership of the EU actually costs UK. It could almost be argued that membership of EU is actually a 'cost saving' exercise!
		
Click to expand...

Again, I was'nt doubting there would be any reduction in regulation. I could'nt care less. I don't let any of that worry me too much, just that it's our own red tape and regulation and not that imposed by the eu. As for it costing more to be out of the eu, I don't believe that for a second. But even if true I don't care. I'm quite prepared to be worse off if it means we are again in control of our own destiny, not being dictated to.:thup:


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 6, 2016)

Fish said:



			I love Boris, he constantly attempted to get over his point with Andrew Marr so people not fully understanding of the single currency and other issues, hopefully understood it a bit better, there's no doubt in my mind that he cares and is passionate about the UK.  *I want to hear more about the things that get wrapped up and delayed by Europe that won't ever, or hardly at all, affect Europe, like our tunnels or tipper trucks,* yet they can have a say which then affects us and not them.  

Cameron came back with nothing of any significance as we can't do anything or change anything or challenge anything once the dog wags our tail, it's a resounding out for me, lets get the gagging orders lifted and hear what's really happening out there and stop the scaremongering.

I want my FREEEEEDOM..:thup:
		
Click to expand...

So you want our tunnels or tipper trucks to be less safe than those in Europe? Any company that exports to EU will be bound by EU laws/regs AND there will have to be additional ones created, maintained and enforced to cover the same areas by UK government! Far simpler to simply apply the same Rules/Regs - and participation in their creation has distinct advantages!


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			So you want our tunnels or tipper trucks to be less safe than those in Europe? Any company that exports to EU will be bound by EU laws/regs AND there will have to be additional ones created, maintained and enforced to cover the same areas by UK government! Far simpler to simply apply the same Rules/Regs - and participation in their creation has distinct advantages!
		
Click to expand...

Think you need to see the interview...

Boris was advising the EU was insisting the new crossrail tunnels needed to be 25% bigger just in case a German train needed to use them... And, TFL wanted stricter rules for tippers than the EU would allow them to apply...

HTH


----------



## Fish (Mar 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			So you want our tunnels or tipper trucks to be less safe than those in Europe? Any company that exports to EU will be bound by EU laws/regs AND there will have to be additional ones created, maintained and enforced to cover the same areas by UK government! Far simpler to simply apply the same Rules/Regs - and participation in their creation has distinct advantages!
		
Click to expand...

I Didn't say that and you obviously didn't watch the full interview


----------



## Fish (Mar 6, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Think you need to see the interview...

Boris was advising the EU was insisting the new crossrail tunnels needed to be 25% bigger just in case a German train needed to use them... And, TFL wanted stricter rules for tippers than the EU would allow them to apply...

HTH
		
Click to expand...

Thank you &#128077;


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 6, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Think you need to see the interview...

Boris was advising the EU was insisting the new crossrail tunnels needed to be 25% bigger just in case a German train needed to use them... And, TFL wanted stricter rules for tippers than the EU would allow them to apply...

HTH
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, I haven't (yet) seen the full interview - I canonly take Boris in very small doses!!

Has it been clarified that either/both of those 'additional' requirements been applied? Or is this just a (nother?) instance of myth-creation - as each project can have unique requirements that would require/allow differences from the standard regulations to apply!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2016)

If we left the EU the worst case scenario I can see is that we would pay export tariff of 1.75% as members of the WTO.   We would of course also apply this tariff to imports so it's not exactly a massive problem.  This is also the fall back position considering we could not negotiate a better arrangement which is unlikely.

We would also have our own seat on the WTO rather than being represented by the EU, this would give us more say on world trade.


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If we left the EU the worst case scenario I can see is that we would pay export tariff of 1.75% as members of the WTO.   We would of course also apply this tariff to imports so it's not exactly a massive problem.  This is also the fall back position considering we could not negotiate a better arrangement which is unlikely.

We would also have our own seat on the WTO rather than being represented by the EU, this would give us more say on world trade.
		
Click to expand...

Leave:- Immigration / Laws / World Trade Agreements

Stay :- It's will be bad  very bad, sooooo bad......But WHY??????? TELL US WHY !!!!!!!!!

We will leave because the Leave argument tells us in simple terms why.


----------



## Junior (Mar 7, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Leave:- Immigration / Laws / World Trade Agreements

Stay :- It's will be bad  very bad, sooooo bad......But WHY??????? TELL US WHY !!!!!!!!!

We will leave because the Leave argument tells us in simple terms why.
		
Click to expand...

This is how I feel.  A massive part of me wants to stay in the EU as you think together we would be stronger, BUT, nobody can seem to say how we would be stronger.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm still yet to hear a very strong vote turning argument to stay in the EU but plenty to leave


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Trust all Brexiters were filled with confidence in BoJo after his Marr Show interview - totally on top of the arguments and rationale - completely at ease with being pressed on what it will mean for the UK.  Hmmm.  Don't think so.  Our next PM? Oh hells teeth,


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm still yet to hear a very strong vote turning argument to stay in the EU but plenty to leave
		
Click to expand...

A problem that _Remain _have is that all the positives that _Remain _might state are spun by _Leave _into _Project Fear _negatives.  

For a me a vote turning argument is quite simply that those promoting _Leave_ seem unable to put forward a consistent and coherent vision and statement of what UK out of EU will be and have.  Everything in respect of relations with the EU is aspirational.  They talk about all that will be possible in the context of the WTO, NATO, USA, China (that stable powerhouse of the global economy)  and the Commoinwealth etc.  Well that's fine in a global context - but there can be no denying that our economic, trading, fiscal, financial, welfare, immigration and security arrangements with the EU are what *really *matter.  And on that I hear absolutely nothing *concrete *- nothing that say that this is what we will have in place; it will take X years to get it in place; and it will cost the UK Â£Y to be party to these arrangements.   

So leaving a 'leap in the dark' - of course it is - at the moment we haven't a clue what a UK out of the EU will be like.  Except of course we'll have 'sovereignty' and be able to 'control' immigration.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A problem that _Remain _have is that all the positives that _Remain _might state are spun by _Leave _into _Project Fear _negatives.  

For a me a vote turning argument is quite simply that those promoting _Leave_ seem unable to put forward a consistent and coherent vision and statement of what UK out of EU will be and have.  Everything in respect of relations with the EU is aspirational.  They talk about all that will be possible in the context of the WTO, NATO, USA, China (that stable powerhouse of the global economy)  and the Commoinwealth etc.  Well that's fine in a global context - but there can be no denying that our economic, trading, fiscal, financial, welfare, immigration and security arrangements with the EU are what *really *matter.  And on that I hear absolutely nothing *concrete *- nothing that say that this is what we will have in place; it will take X years to get it in place; and it will cost the UK Â£Y to be party to these arrangements.   

So leaving a 'leap in the dark' - of course it is - at the moment we haven't a clue what a UK out of the EU will be like.  Except of course we'll have 'sovereignty' and be able to 'control' immigration.
		
Click to expand...

And we would no longer give out a damn sight lot of money to gain little back and be able to use that money to improve our nation as opposed to others


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And we would no longer give out a damn sight lot of money to gain little back and be able to use that money to improve our nation as opposed to others
		
Click to expand...

A fine statement of intent - but as _Leave_ don't know or tell us how much it'll cost the UK to have all the necessary arrangements in place with the EU - they can't really tell me how much better off we'd be.  It's aspirational.


----------



## delc (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And we would no longer give out a damn sight lot of money to gain little back and be able to use that money to improve our nation as opposed to others
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we should try and claim more grants, etc. The other EU Countries seem to get away with it!  Does our Government even ask?


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trust all Brexiters were filled with confidence in BoJo after his Marr Show interview - totally on top of the arguments and rationale - completely at ease with being pressed on what it will mean for the UK.  Hmmm.  Don't think so.  Our next PM? Oh hells teeth,
		
Click to expand...


Andrew Marr was more than just a BoJo parade...

Mervyn King spoke some very wise words...

And, Wolfgang Schauble didn't exactly inspire me to change my views with regard UKs position in Europe...
Turkey is a problem 10 years down the road... Very helpful...

DaveCam & Co can't even guarantee more of the same...


----------



## jp5 (Mar 7, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Leave:- Immigration / Laws / World Trade Agreements

Stay :- It's will be bad  very bad, sooooo bad......But WHY??????? TELL US WHY !!!!!!!!!

We will leave because the Leave argument tells us in simple terms why.
		
Click to expand...

But not 'how'. For a goal that has been an aspiration of some politicians for decades, with a few months to go before the big vote there seems to be very little substance or consensus on what exactly the alternative would look like. For the benefit of the debate let's hope they can put the political differences to one side and focus on getting that vision across!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A fine statement of intent - but as _Leave_ don't know or tell us how much it'll cost the UK to have all the necessary arrangements in place with the EU - they can't really tell me how much better off we'd be.  It's aspirational.
		
Click to expand...

Will it cost ?

Or maybe we will open up new agreements with other countries in the world as we will be the masters of our own destiny

But again as can be see by the people in the "in" campaign - the comments aren't why we should stay in more putting the scaremongering onto the reasons why to leave


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			But not 'how'. For a goal that has been an aspiration of some politicians for decades, with a few months to go before the big vote there seems to be very little substance or consensus on what exactly the alternative would look like. For the benefit of the debate let's hope they can put the political differences to one side and focus on getting that vision across!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. _Leave_ can't even agree amongt themselves about what they want - there is absolutely no clarity or focus.  The only thing that is clear is that _Leave _aspires to: regain 'sovereignty'; have 'control' of immigration; and 'pay' (only phrased in Â£Â£Â£ terms) less to access the European single market.  That seems to be it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will it cost ?

Or maybe we will open up new agreements with other countries in the world *as we will be the masters of our own destiny
*
But again as can be see by the people in the "in" campaign - the comments aren't why we should stay in more putting the scaremongering onto the reasons why to leave
		
Click to expand...

Oh absolutely - in this interconnected globalised world - we - the UK - will be able to have just whatever we want and trade and have other agreements on our terms with whoever we want.  Well that would be just fine and dandy - were this a pre-1970s world we live in.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh absolutely - in this interconnected globalised world - we - the UK - will be able to have just whatever we want and trade and have other agreements on our terms with whoever we want.  Well that would be just fine and dandy - were this a pre-1970s world we live in.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying that we won't be able to reach trade agreements with other countries ? 

Still waiting for solid reasons to stay in


----------



## Junior (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A problem that _Remain _have is that all the positives that _Remain _might state are spun by _Leave _into _Project Fear _negatives.  

For a me a vote turning argument is quite simply that those promoting _Leave_ seem unable to put forward a consistent and coherent vision and statement of what UK out of EU will be and have.  Everything in respect of relations with the EU is aspirational.  They talk about all that will be possible in the context of the WTO, NATO, USA, China (that stable powerhouse of the global economy)  and the Commoinwealth etc.  Well that's fine in a global context - but there can be no denying that our economic, trading, fiscal, financial, welfare, immigration and security arrangements with the EU are what *really *matter.  And on that I hear absolutely nothing *concrete *- nothing that say that this is what we will have in place; it will take X years to get it in place; and it will cost the UK Â£Y to be party to these arrangements.   

So leaving a 'leap in the dark' - of course it is - at the moment we haven't a clue what a UK out of the EU will be like.  Except of course we'll have 'sovereignty' and be able to 'control' immigration.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, it is a leap in the dark, but are you saying that the crux of the remain argument is that its 'better the devil you know' ?  

Honestly, this is one of the most important votes in our countries history, yet, there seems to be no real pro's and con's lists with any substance from either side.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Mar 7, 2016)

Why stay?

One word really - Stability.

Stability is good, it's something that creates the confidence in the system at every level of life. As individuals we like it, we want steady mortgage rates, steady jobs, steady food prices, basically a steady existence. It's what humans do, it fosters the environment where we can plan ahead, plan families, plan major spending, house moves etc. Then there's Businesses. They like it too, mostly for the same reasons. It fosters investment, it enables businesses to plan for growth, plan to expand, be confident of future markets etc. Then up another level and Countries also like it. Again it enables planning, it means agreements made today will be honoured tomorrow, it makes it mutually beneficial to work together and reduces the possibility of conflict and even war.

Look at anywhere in the world that there are problems, and I mean proper issues, famine, disease, war and the like costing thousands of lives every day. For 9 out of 10 the root cause is instability of one kind or another. Maybe the political system, the economy or even the environment but all with social unrest increasingly dividing the sides involved be that on religious, cultural, racial grounds all perpetuating the cycle. Instability creates division, division creates conflict and a quick look at history tells us that Europe isn't immune.

The EU isn't perfect, nothing is, even a UK "in charge of it's own destiny" whatever that really means, won't be. But I'm very wary of division and nationalistic rhetoric which brings every argument down to "us and them". When I look at this issue I look to the future, not the next 10 years in which nothing will change much either way but the world my baby granddaughter will grow up in. I genuinely believe in the stable system we have in the west and I can't see that fragmenting it and not working together to defend it is going to make the world a better, or a safer place.

Feel free to disagree as obviously many will. However, I think I've made my mind up and in the myriad of points being made, nearly all of which on both sides have some validity, the overarching one for me is to not rock the boat, fix the EU from within, don't be the catalyst that blows it all apart and set Europe back 70 years to a dangerous place my parents generation had to live through.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Why stay?

One word really - Stability.

Stability is good, it's something that creates the confidence in the system at every level of life. As individuals we like it, we want steady mortgage rates, steady jobs, steady food prices, basically a steady existence. It's what humans do, it fosters the environment where we can plan ahead, plan families, plan major spending, house moves etc. Then there's Businesses. They like it too, mostly for the same reasons. It fosters investment, it enables businesses to plan for growth, plan to expand, be confident of future markets etc. Then up another level and Countries also like it. Again it enables planning, it means agreements made today will be honoured tomorrow, it makes it mutually beneficial to work together and reduces the possibility of conflict and even war.

Look at anywhere in the world that there are problems, and I mean proper issues, famine, disease, war and the like costing thousands of lives every day. For 9 out of 10 the root cause is instability of one kind or another. Maybe the political system, the economy or even the environment but all with social unrest increasingly dividing the sides involved be that on religious, cultural, racial grounds all perpetuating the cycle. Instability creates division, division creates conflict and a quick look at history tells us that Europe isn't immune.

The EU isn't perfect, nothing is, even a UK "in charge of it's own destiny" whatever that really means, won't be. But I'm very wary of division and nationalistic rhetoric which brings every argument down to "us and them". When I look at this issue I look to the future, not the next 10 years in which nothing will change much either way but the world my baby granddaughter will grow up in. I genuinely believe in the stable system we have in the west and I can't see that fragmenting it and not working together to defend it is going to make the world a better, or a safer place.

Feel free to disagree as obviously many will. However, I think I've made my mind up and in the myriad of points being made, nearly all of which on both sides have some validity, the overarching one for me is to not rock the boat, fix the EU from within, don't be the catalyst that blows it all apart and set Europe back 70 years to a dangerous place my parents generation had to live through.
		
Click to expand...

Fine post there sir.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2016)

delc said:



			Perhaps we should try and *claim more grants*, etc. The other EU Countries seem to get away with it!  Does our Government even ask?
		
Click to expand...

Do they?

Please give examples - from, say, Germany or France!


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, I haven't (yet) seen the full interview - I canonly take Boris in very small doses!!

Has it been clarified that either/both of those 'additional' requirements been applied? Or is this just a (nother?) instance of myth-creation - as each project can have unique requirements that would require/allow differences from the standard regulations to apply!
		
Click to expand...


I doubt he conjured his points out of thin air...

One thing I'll give him is... If he was still running for Mayor [in May] it wouldn't surprise me if one his manifesto points wasn't along the lines of...

We'll decide what can be driven in London and the EU can go swivel...


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A problem that _Remain _have is that all the positives that _Remain _might state are spun by _Leave _into _Project Fear _negatives.  

For a me a vote turning argument is quite simply that those promoting _Leave_ seem unable to put forward a consistent and coherent vision and statement of what UK out of EU will be and have.  Everything in respect of relations with the EU is aspirational.  They talk about all that will be possible in the context of the WTO, NATO, USA, China (that stable powerhouse of the global economy)  and the Commoinwealth etc.  Well that's fine in a global context - but there can be no denying that our economic, trading, fiscal, financial, welfare, immigration and security arrangements with the EU are what *really *matter.  And on that I hear absolutely nothing *concrete *- nothing that say that this is what we will have in place; it will take X years to get it in place; and it will cost the UK Â£Y to be party to these arrangements.   

So leaving a 'leap in the dark' - of course it is - at the moment we haven't a clue what a UK out of the EU will be like.  Except of course we'll have 'sovereignty' and be able to 'control' immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have any facts behind those bullet point, headliners? Either for stay or leave. Where's your costings for either, or is it you're happy to pay out Â£14billion more than we get in. 

You've posted up in the past the failings of the NHS, or the govt and mgt behind it. And knowledgeable medics have said there's an Â£8billion deficit. Well there's Â£6billion left over from the Â£14billion to plug the gap in Social Services & Benefits you've often posted up too.

I would say it wouldn't be as simple as that, and there are a multitude of other issues to resolve, e.g. you question whether we'd be in NATO. We were in it before the EU experiment, so why won't we be in it afterwards. We have the biggest aircraft carrier in the world to support protection of the Western Approaches, i.e. the UK. Do you think NATO would cut us adrift...?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you saying that we won't be able to reach trade agreements with other countries ? 

Still waiting for solid reasons to stay in
		
Click to expand...

We've got solid and long standing trade agreements in place - and as mentioned these provide stability and certainty for trade and investment.  We have nothing from _Leave _on how long the multiple transitions to new trade agreements would take or indeed what these agreements would look like.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I doubt he conjured his points out of thin air...

...
		
Click to expand...

I have no (well, little) doubt that his statements were correct. But the question was whether they were simply 'proposals' that were never implemented - ie did the EU 'general' standards/regulations or the specific TFL/Crossrail 'special considerations for the Project' ones prevail?

I'm inclined to think that TFL and Crossrail got their way! In the case of Crossrail, a 25% bigger tunnel would have significantly increased the cost of the project - and that requirement would have been announced way before now!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Junior said:



			I agree, it is a leap in the dark, but are you saying that the crux of the remain argument is that its 'better the devil you know' ?  

Honestly, this is one of the most important votes in our countries history, yet, there seems to be no real pro's and con's lists with any substance from either side.
		
Click to expand...

Better the devil indeed - but we must not forget that many if not most of the workplace, employment and welfare benefits, rights and protections are framed in the context of EU legislation - so for many the 'devil' is a rather benevolent devil.  I do not feel inclined to consider an environment in which Ian Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling and their like, have free reign to reform in these areas (as that is what sovereignty much sought after by _Leave _means)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We've got solid and long standing trade agreements in place - and as mentioned these provide stability and certainty for trade and investment.  We have nothing from _Leave _on how long the multiple transitions to new trade agreements would take or indeed what these agreements would look like.
		
Click to expand...

You still haven't provide any reasons for the UK to stay in the EU - it seems the only thing you can provide is negatives towards people's reasons for wanting to leave 

I fully understand the stability reason put forward by Flydewhite and not rocking the boat etc - but can you use that as reason when it appears it wasn't valid when people were using it as a reason for No to Scottish a independence. 

A lot of reasons have been posted by people as reasons for wanting to leave , sovereignty , immigration , getting more for out money etc - but still not seen any reasons for staying from you


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Why stay?

One word really - Stability.

Stability is good, it's something that creates the confidence in the system at every level of life. As individuals we like it, we want steady mortgage rates, steady jobs, steady food prices, basically a steady existence. It's what humans do, it fosters the environment where we can plan ahead, plan families, plan major spending, house moves etc. Then there's Businesses. They like it too, mostly for the same reasons. It fosters investment, it enables businesses to plan for growth, plan to expand, be confident of future markets etc. Then up another level and Countries also like it. Again it enables planning, it means agreements made today will be honoured tomorrow, it makes it mutually beneficial to work together and reduces the possibility of conflict and even war.

Look at anywhere in the world that there are problems, and I mean proper issues, famine, disease, war and the like costing thousands of lives every day. For 9 out of 10 the root cause is instability of one kind or another. Maybe the political system, the economy or even the environment but all with social unrest increasingly dividing the sides involved be that on religious, cultural, racial grounds all perpetuating the cycle. Instability creates division, division creates conflict and a quick look at history tells us that Europe isn't immune.

The EU isn't perfect, nothing is, even a UK "in charge of it's own destiny" whatever that really means, won't be. But I'm very wary of division and nationalistic rhetoric which brings every argument down to "us and them". When I look at this issue I look to the future, not the next 10 years in which nothing will change much either way but the world my baby granddaughter will grow up in. I genuinely believe in the stable system we have in the west and I can't see that fragmenting it and not working together to defend it is going to make the world a better, or a safer place.

Feel free to disagree as obviously many will. However, I think I've made my mind up and in the myriad of points being made, nearly all of which on both sides have some validity, the overarching one for me is to not rock the boat, fix the EU from within, don't be the catalyst that blows it all apart and set Europe back 70 years to a dangerous place my parents generation had to live through.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou - you have captured my views and thinking far better than I have been able to myself.  You are so correct in placing the focus 20+yrs down the line - with so much of the debate we are hearing being focussed on issues and concerns of the 'here and now' we miss the point that this decision is not really for us...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Do you have any facts behind those bullet point, headliners? Either for stay or leave. Where's your costings for either, or is it you're happy to pay out Â£14billion more than we get in. 

You've posted up in the past the failings of the NHS, or the govt and mgt behind it. And knowledgeable medics have said there's an Â£8billion deficit. Well there's Â£6billion left over from the Â£14billion to plug the gap in Social Services & Benefits you've often posted up too.

I would say it wouldn't be as simple as that, and there are a multitude of other issues to resolve, e.g. you question whether we'd be in NATO. We were in it before the EU experiment, so why won't we be in it afterwards. We have the biggest aircraft carrier in the world to support protection of the Western Approaches, i.e. the UK. Do you think NATO would cut us adrift...?
		
Click to expand...

I didn't question at all whether UK would be in NATO - there is no reason whatsoever for UK not being in NATO if it leaves the EU. 

You wish to know how much it costs to be in the EU today and have access to the single market and how much in the future.  I am sure that the government and OBR have all the figures for these costs projected 5, 10 etc years into the future, after all they are needed for the budget and spending reviews - and one is coming up soon.  So where are the equivalent forecasts of costs from _Leave_.  There will of course be forecasts - but these forecasts require very significant assumptions to be made - and at the moment I hear and read only the vaguest of aspirational assumptions- and so forecasts built more on sand than on stone.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You still haven't provide any reasons for the UK to stay in the EU - it seems the only thing you can provide is negatives towards people's reasons for wanting to leave 

I fully understand the stability reason put forward by Flydewhite and not rocking the boat etc - but can you use that as reason when it appears it wasn't valid when people were using it as a reason for No to Scottish a independence. 

A lot of reasons have been posted by people as reasons for wanting to leave , sovereignty , immigration , getting more for out money etc - but still not seen any reasons for staying from you
		
Click to expand...

Asking for objectives, costs and timescales for reaching new agreements is not the same as saying that new agreements will be costly; take a long time to come to fruition; and will not provide everything that Leave wishes for in respect of sovereignty, immigration and cost savings.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Better the devil indeed - but we must not forget that many if not most of the workplace, employment and welfare benefits, rights and protections are framed in the context of EU legislation - so for many the 'devil' is a rather benevolent devil.  I do not feel inclined to consider an environment in which Ian Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling and their like, have free reign to reform in these areas (as that is what sovereignty much sought after by _Leave _means)
		
Click to expand...

Why do the stay campaigners continue to look on the negative side of everything? Why is Sovereignty sneered at like a dirty word? You don't like IDS and his ilk, well in a democracy we can vote them out of power. 
I prefer to see it as stepping out of the shadows, rather than leap into the dark.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Asking for objectives, costs and timescales for reaching new agreements is not the same as saying that new agreements will be costly; take a long time to come to fruition; and will not provide everything that Leave wishes for in respect of sovereignty, immigration and cost savings.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but what does that answer have anything to do with what I posted ?
If you can't think of a reason to stay in the EU then just say that then


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I have no (well, little) doubt that his statements were correct. But the question was whether they were simply 'proposals' that were never implemented - ie did the EU 'general' standards/regulations or the specific TFL/Crossrail 'special considerations for the Project' ones prevail?

I'm inclined to think that TFL and Crossrail got their way! In the case of Crossrail, a 25% bigger tunnel would have significantly increased the cost of the project - and that requirement would have been announced way before now!
		
Click to expand...

Just watched Bozo for as long as I could, and my above inclination seems to be correct! Crossrail didn't need to cater for the possibility of usage by German trains- and it was 50% that was mentioned!

And, from a few searches, TFL seems to have got its way with all the 'cyclist friendly' additions that it wanted too, even if he is having a hard time getting the same standards applied to the rest of Europe! 

So ammo for the myth-making propagandists amongst the 'usual project specific negotiations'!

Bozo is definitely passionate about his point of view, but I'm afraid he comes across, to me at least, as just a buffoon when asked to provide real data!

Btw. I fully support his endeavours to make lorries etc safer for cyclists - both the sane and idiotic ones!


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't question at all whether UK would be in NATO - there is no reason whatsoever for UK not being in NATO if it leaves the EU. 

You wish to know how much it costs to be in the EU today and have access to the single market and how much in the future.  I am sure that the government and OBR have all the figures for these costs projected 5, 10 etc years into the future, after all they are needed for the budget and spending reviews - and one is coming up soon.  So where are the equivalent forecasts of costs from _Leave_.  There will of course be forecasts - but these forecasts require very significant assumptions to be made - and at the moment I hear and read only the vaguest of aspirational assumptions- and so forecasts built more on sand than on stone.
		
Click to expand...

i can't disagree with what you've posted, and I'd like those answers too. We do know what it costs to be in the EU, it's Â£14billion more than we get out. As to the IDS and the ilk. I fundamentally disagree with your thoughts on why you want to stay in, I.e. That the EU will police them.

i did ask earlier in the thread why you wouldn't support the democratic choice of the people of the UK, preferring to be governed by the EU rather than have a Tory govt. Would you have the same inclination if you were guaranteed 20yrs of Labour rule?

we don't know the exit conditions because they don't get negotiated until a country formally decides to leave.... It's all there in the Lisbon Treaty. We can guess, which is the projection many politicians are doing but we don't know what the other EU countries demand.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

Am I the only one that thinks that all this confusion, negativity and lack of clarity is the fault of the Government and especially the Prime Minister for not presenting the case for the referendum on both sides Instead of 'Stay' is all things nice and 'Leave' is the end of life as we know it.

If the Government decided the people of the UK needed a vote on future membership of the EU then that decision must have been based on a degree of dissatisfaction with our membership.   OK Cameron has carried out his sham stitch up renegotiation of our terms of membership on what he calls a reformed European Union.  He now recommends we vote to stay due to the great job he has done to give us a special membership deal that addresses all our concerns (what a joke)

In my opinion the government should have spent considerable more time in these discussions and part of the negotiations should have dealt with issues like our trading position if we exit.   Then a truly clear referendum could have been made with the electorate having the facts at hand for and against staying.   Rather than do this he has decided to keep people with a view that differs from his personal one to figure it our for themselves.

A shabby and selfish way of running a referendum on such an important issue.   His personal opinion should be kept out of it.

On the point made of maintaining stability.  Do you think the situation with the Euro, falling world trade, inability to create a coherent policy over the current migration crisis , the idea of opening free movement to Turkey, no control over our own borders as  stabilisers?    I certainly don't.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			i can't disagree with what you've posted, and I'd like those answers too. We do know what it costs to be in the EU, it's Â£14billion more than we get out. As to the IDS and the ilk. I fundamentally disagree with your thoughts on why you want to stay in, I.e. That the EU will police them.

*i did ask earlier in the thread why you wouldn't support the democratic choice of the people of the UK, preferring to be governed by the EU rather than have a Tory govt. Would you have the same inclination if you were guaranteed 20yrs of Labour rule?*

we don't know the exit conditions because they don't get negotiated until a country formally decides to leave.... It's all there in the Lisbon Treaty. We can guess, which is the projection many politicians are doing but we don't know what the other EU countries demand.
		
Click to expand...

This is quite simple for me.  We vote for MEPs - the EU is not as undemocratic as many paint it - though I think our MEPs could and should have more power - but they are not toothless. UK should stay in a work for *greater* say for our MEPs.

The nature of the UK government is not a huge factor in my In/Out thinking.  However if the prospect was of 20-25yrs Labour government in a UK out of the EU I would have few fears of the sort I have in respect of unfettered Conservatism hand-in-glove with business.  Besides - the EU vote has only come about *because *we have a Conservative government so the 'what-if' about a Labour government is pretty irrelevant - it is of more relevance standing where we are today with the prospect of a wiff-waff BoJo as PM and Conservatives in power for another 20+yrs


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Am I the only one that thinks that all this confusion, negativity and lack of clarity is the fault of the Government and especially the Prime Minister for not presenting the case for the referendum on both sides.

If the Government decided the people of the UK needed a vote on future membership of the EU then that decision must have been based on a degree of dissatisfaction with our membership.   OK Cameron has carried out his sham stitch up of a renegotiation of our terms of membership on what he calls a reformed European Union.  He now recommends we vote to stay due to the great job he has done to give us a special membership deal that addresses all our concerns (what a joke)

In my opinion the government should have spent considerable more time in these discussions *and part of the negotiations should have dealt with issues like our trading position if we exit.*   Then a truly clear referendum could have been made with the electorate having the facts at hand for and against staying.   Rather than do this he has decided to keep people with a view that differs from his personal one to figure it our for themselves.

A shabby and selfish way of running a referendum on such an important issue.   His personal opinion should be kept out of it.

On the point made of maintaining stability.  Do you think the situation with the Euro, falling world trade, inability to create a coherent policy over the current migration crisis , the idea of opening free movement to Turkey, no control over our own borders as  stabilisers?    I certainly don't.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot be serious.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is quite simple for me.  We vote for MEPs - the EU is not as undemocratic as many paint it - though I think our MEPs could and should have more power - but they are not toothless. UK should stay in a work for *greater* say for our MEPs.

The nature of the UK government is not a huge factor in my In/Out thinking.  However if the prospect was of 20-25yrs Labour government in a UK out of the EU I would have few fears of the sort I have in respect of unfettered Conservatism hand-in-glove with business.  Besides - the EU vote has only come about *because *we have a Conservative government so the 'what-if' about a Labour government is pretty irrelevant - it is of more relevance standing where we are today with the prospect of a wiff-waff BoJo as PM and Conservatives in power for another 20+yrs
		
Click to expand...


Pretty much agree with you on our MEP's having more power and also that the EU is not as undemocratic as many portray.

Also would not be happy about BoJo who I see as a political opportunist.

On the other hand 20 minutes of J Corbyn being in charge would be too much for me.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You cannot be serious.
		
Click to expand...

Why cant I be serious?   The Government should take a responsible view and inform people with a balanced view, it is not for the Government to keep information from the electorate that disallows them to make a decision on such an important matter without the facts for and against and this being probably the most important in their lifetime.

So please, explain why thats not a serious proposition?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is quite simple for me.  We vote for MEPs - the EU is not as undemocratic as many paint it - though I think our MEPs could and should have more power - but they are not toothless. UK should stay in a work for *greater* say for our MEPs.

The nature of the UK government is not a huge factor in my In/Out thinking.  However if the prospect was of 20-25yrs Labour government in a UK out of the EU I would have few fears of the sort I have in respect of unfettered Conservatism hand-in-glove with business.  Besides - the EU vote has only come about *because *we have a Conservative government so the 'what-if' about a Labour government is pretty irrelevant - it is of more relevance standing where we are today with the prospect of a wiff-waff BoJo as PM and Conservatives in power for another 20+yrs
		
Click to expand...

Our MEPs are in a big minority and often tend to get outvoted.   MEP's are not an instrument to protect UK sovereignty and determination.   We have our HOC to do that for us.

I guess your enthusiasm for MEP's does not stretch to the UK party that has the most?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*Am I the only one that thinks that all this confusion, negativity and lack of clarity is the fault of the Government and especially the Prime Minister for not presenting the case for the referendum on both sides Instead of 'Stay' is all things nice and 'Leave' is the end of life as we know it.
*
If the Government decided the people of the UK needed a vote on future membership of the EU then that decision must have been based on a degree of dissatisfaction with our membership.   OK Cameron has carried out his sham stitch up renegotiation of our terms of membership on what he calls a reformed European Union.  He now recommends we vote to stay due to the great job he has done to give us a special membership deal that addresses all our concerns (what a joke)

In my opinion the government should have spent considerable more time in these discussions and part of the negotiations should have dealt with issues like our trading position if we exit.   Then a truly clear referendum could have been made with the electorate having the facts at hand for and against staying.   Rather than do this he has decided to keep people with a view that differs from his personal one to figure it our for themselves.

A shabby and selfish way of running a referendum on such an important issue.   His personal opinion should be kept out of it.

On the point made of maintaining stability.  Do you think the situation with the Euro, falling world trade, inability to create a coherent policy over the current migration crisis , the idea of opening free movement to Turkey, no control over our own borders as  stabilisers?    I certainly don't.
		
Click to expand...

Yes you are.  He's the frikkin PM, it is his job to decide what he thinks the UK should do in big matters that effect the country, that's the whole point of him. Do you really think he will be taken seriously if he flip flops between 2 differing opinions in the name of neutrality. He isn't neutral, the governments official position is not neutral and much as I love a wooly liberal, he'd be a global joke if the PM of a country, the person that effectively runs the country, could not express his opinion on one of the major issues of his lifetime in Parliament. Sorry if his position does not match yours, I am sure you'd be saying the same if he came out in favour of leaving 

If you want these mythical facts that everyone is hiding then read The Guardian then The Daily Mail.  And the truth will be somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2016)

Some trade figures to ponder

the largest exporter to the UK is Germany, Â£4bn, followed by China and the USA at Â£3bn each.

the largest importer of UK goods is Switzerland Â£4bn, followed by the USA Â£3bn, then Germany Â£2bn, China Â£1.5bn, and the Ireland Â£1.5bn.

Would Germany risk their trade? And after that where's the next big issue? Bearing in mind we loaned Â£10bn to Ireland at the height of the financial troubles would Ireland really play hard ball.

We export Â£23bn worth of goods to the EU, and Â£34bn worth of goods to non EU countries. The majority of our exports within the EU are to the less developed EU countries.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Asking for objectives, costs and timescales for reaching new agreements is not the same as saying that new agreements will be costly; take a long time to come to fruition; and will not provide everything that Leave wishes for in respect of sovereignty, immigration and cost savings.
		
Click to expand...

Hogan have you come up with any reasons to stay in the EU yet ?


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And as for keeping information from the electorate then careful with that paranoia there, the little people in the trees are watching you know.
		
Click to expand...

i always cut the trees down for this very reason! Also, it discourages treehuggers!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hogan have you come up with any reasons to stay in the EU yet ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, see post 999 in which he agreed with a post regarding the reasons.  Plus I am sure he has expressed an opinion in many other posts that frankly I can't be arsed to read back through. But feel free as it seems you are so obsessed by him.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			i always cut the trees down for this very reason! Also, it discourages treehuggers!
		
Click to expand...

 2 for 1 double whammy, well played sir.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, see post 999 in which he agreed with a post regarding the reasons.  Plus I am sure he has expressed an opinion in many other posts that frankly I can't be arsed to read back through. But feel free as it seems you are so obsessed by him.
		
Click to expand...

Obsessed ? No ?

It's quite clear from his posts that he is in the IN camp - but he constantly seems to be "attacking" the OUT camp accusing of scaremongering etc etc etc 

I posted that I haven't seen many valid reasons to stay in the EU but have IMO seen valid reasons for leaving - Hogan responded ( surely not as I'm the obsessed ) by dismissing what I see as valid reasons for leaving - so in fact backed up my point that still not seeing valid reasons to stay - so I asked him to provide them - failed to do so once again focusing of dismissing of people's valid reasons for leaving and continuing to focus on dismissing the campaign to leave.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I posted that I haven't seen many valid reasons to stay in the EU but have IMO seen valid reasons for leaving - Hogan responded ( surely not as I'm the obsessed ) by dismissing what I see as valid reasons for leaving - so in fact backed up my point that still not seeing valid reasons to stay - so I asked him to provide them - failed to do so once again focusing of dismissing of people's valid reasons for leaving and continuing to focus on dismissing the campaign to leave.
		
Click to expand...

This should keep you reading for a while....

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/whats-in-it-for-me


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This should keep you reading for a while....

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/whats-in-it-for-me

Click to expand...

Seen that before - believe there isn't anything in there that we can't achieve as a nation on our own as well a good deal of it focusing on what we can do in other countries. 

But are they reasons good enough to stay ? 

We aren't going to suddenly dismiss human rights and equality because we leave the EU IMO


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes you are.  He's the frikkin PM, it is his job to decide what he thinks the UK should do in big matters that effect the country, that's the whole point of him. Do you really think he will be taken seriously if he flip flops between 2 differing opinions in the name of neutrality. He isn't neutral, the governments official position is not neutral and much as I love a wooly liberal, he'd be a global joke if the PM of a country, the person that effectively runs the country, could not express his opinion on one of the major issues of his lifetime in Parliament. Sorry if his position does not match yours, I am sure you'd be saying the same if he came out in favour of leaving 

If you want these mythical facts that everyone is hiding the read the Guardian then The Daily Mail.  And they will be somewhere in the middle.
		
Click to expand...

They didn't have to call for a referendum.  When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide.   How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark!   No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Obsessed ? No ?

It's quite clear from his posts that he is in the IN camp - but he constantly seems to be "attacking" the OUT camp accusing of scaremongering etc etc etc 

I posted that I haven't seen many valid reasons to stay in the EU but have IMO seen valid reasons for leaving - Hogan responded ( surely not as I'm the obsessed ) by dismissing what I see as valid reasons for leaving - so in fact backed up my point that still not seeing valid reasons to stay - so I asked him to provide them - failed to do so once again focusing of dismissing of people's valid reasons for leaving and continuing to focus on dismissing the campaign to leave.
		
Click to expand...

If SILH is in favour of remaining then he is advocating the _status quo _albeit with some changes, in which case there is no need for him to offer anything else to support that point. 

Rather it is for those advocating an exit to explain how and why we will all benefit.

Throughout the debate the only accusations of scaremongering thatI have seen have emanated from the Leave camp and been directed at those in favour of remaining. Certainly not seen any such accusations from SILH.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They didn't have to call for a referendum.  When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide.   How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark!   No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.
		
Click to expand...

And there's obviously a reason they don't want to give that information. Because it will weaken the Stay option, which suggests there are good reasons to leave...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seen that before - believe there isn't anything in there that we can't achieve as a nation on our own as well a good deal of it focusing on what we can do in other countries. 

But are they reasons good enough to stay ? 

We aren't going to suddenly dismiss human rights and equality because we leave the EU IMO
		
Click to expand...

Wow - dismissed it all in 2 mins? Your mind is clearly made up. And no, there is no way we could achieve all that on our own - the only way to implement many of these benefits is by working together with other European countries.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Wow - dismissed it all in 2 mins? Your mind is clearly made up. And no, there is no way we could achieve all that on our own - the only way to implement many of these benefits is by working together with other European countries.
		
Click to expand...

I have read it before

My mind is made up until I see something or hear strong reasons to change my mind and so far I haven't - seen more reasons to leave and the possible/probable benefits of leaving. 

Beleive we as a nation should look after our nation first and foremost


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If SILH is in favour of remaining then he is advocating the _status quo _albeit with some changes, in which case there is no need for him to offer anything else to support that point. 

Rather it is for those advocating an exit to explain how and why we will all benefit.

*Throughout the debate the only accusations of scaremongering thatI have seen have emanated from the Leave camp and been directed at those in favour of remaining*. Certainly not seen any such accusations from SILH.
		
Click to expand...

There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have read it before

My mind is made up until I see something or hear strong reasons to change my mind and so far I haven't - seen more reasons to leave and the possible/probable benefits of leaving. 

Beleive we as a nation should look after our nation first and foremost
		
Click to expand...

You're entitled to your opinion but please stop saying you haven't seen any reasons to stay - there's a whole website full of them. If you decide they're not "good enough" then fine but you have seen them (assuming you actually read much on the site).

Bottom line is that everything on that page goes out the window if we leave the EU. Some might be recreated over time but many will not.

I'll turn it round and say I haven't seen any good reasons to leave, what with not being xenophobic....


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

*I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some*.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and those suggestions are just someone's opinions. 

It is the Leave campaigners who have then dismissed those opinions as scaremongering.

Sadly the level of the debate on both sides has, so far, been pretty poor. 

We now have Yvette Cooper as well as J Corbyn trying to suggest that the argument is purely within the Conservative Party as if all on the Labour benches are in harmonious agreement.

With the electorate faced with such a momentous decision this is hardly an appropriate time for party poltics.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They didn't have to call for a referendum.  When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide.   *How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark! * *No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.*

Click to expand...

Yes, I look forwards to the conservative party extolling the virtues of local authorities in the next election, just to put balanced facts across.  Or UKIP waxing lyrical about the positive impact immigrants have had on the cultural and social tapestry of British life. And can't wait to hear Corbyn arguing in favour of privatizating the air we breath. All in the interests of giving enough information of course.

And I think the government have said a bit more than 'it's a jump into the dark'. It's a bit like summing up the leave campaign with 'They don't trust Brussels'.  Both kind of sum up the arguments in a short pithy way, but both hide a multitude of more complex and nuanced points underneath.   But if all you ever hear is 'jump in the dark' then carry on, selective hearing is a great thing.

And as for not getting enough comment and opinion (as as we have already established, no one knows for sure what will happen) then read a paper. Or tune into Radio 5 or 4. Or watch the news.  Or read all this thread.  It's not difficult.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'll turn it round and say I haven't seen any good reasons to leave, what with not being xenophobic....
		
Click to expand...

Wondered how long before someone used that old chestnut. Just like discussions on immigration, call someone a racist to kill the debate. Being proud and patriotic with real concerns about being in the eu, does not make anyone  xenophobic.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Absolutely, and those suggestions are just someone's opinions. 

It is the Leave campaigners who have then dismissed those opinions as scaremongering.

Sadly the level of the debate on both sides has, so far, been pretty poor. 

We now have Yvette Cooper as well as J Corbyn trying to suggest that the argument is purely within the Conservative Party as if all on the Labour benches are in harmonious agreement.

With the electorate faced with such a momentous decision this is hardly an appropriate time for party poltics.
		
Click to expand...

Is that not scaremongering then by saying if we leave everything could all go wrong ? 

Is it not scaremongering to try and scare people into changing their votes by focusing on the negatives ?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Wondered how long before someone used that old chestnut. Just like discussions on race, call someone a racist to kill the debate. Being proud and patriotic with real concerns about being in the eu, does not make anyone a xenophobic.
		
Click to expand...

Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia. We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This should keep you reading for a while....

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/whats-in-it-for-me

Click to expand...

Just had a brief look through that and there are some things on there that I would say are benefits of staying in the EU but others (from the flow chart type thing with the 4 colours) that I just don't understand why they would change. Things such as clean beaches and bathing water, recycling, cheaper telecoms, food labelling, fair airline ticket pricing and importing cars. I can't see why those things would have to change if we left the EU. It's not like we're suddenly going to be dumping raw sewage onto our blue flag beaches just because we leave. Perhaps someone could explain as there must be more to it but I'm just not seeing it.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. *Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia.* We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.
		
Click to expand...

The dictionary definition of xenophobia is.......

"an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or  strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

Withdrawing from a structure for international cooperation isn't xenophobic although the reasons behind some of those wanting to leave might be considered as such.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just had a brief look through that and there are some things on there that to I would say are benefits of staying in the EU but others (from the flow chart type thing with the 4 colours) that I just don't understand why they would change. Things such as clean beaches and bathing water, recycling, cheaper telecoms, food labelling, fair airline ticket pricing and importing cars. I can't see why those things would have to change if we left the EU. It's not like we're suddenly going to be dumping raw sewage onto our blue flag beaches just because we leave. Perhaps someone could explain as there must be more to it but I'm just not seeing it.
		
Click to expand...

Agree that many of those we could do, although we haven't - maybe because it was already there via the EU but maybe not. Others, like cheaper telecoms, seem obviously to require a degree of cross-border cooperation that would be much more fraught outside the EU.

I had a flight cancelled at short notice. Using EU legislation I was able to get compensation which went a long way towards paying for the dearer flight I had to buy the day before my holiday. Now maybe, in the fullness of time, our government would get round to passing similar legislation, but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Agree that many of those we could do, although we haven't - maybe because it was already there via the EU but maybe not. Others, like cheaper telecoms, seem obviously to require a degree of cross-border cooperation that would be much more fraught outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Aren't roaming charges in Europe about to be banned in the EU? I wonder what would happen with UK mobiles abroad if we left.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Aren't roaming charges in Europe about to be banned in the EU? I wonder what would happen with UK mobiles abroad if we left.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly my point.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that not scaremongering then by saying if we leave everything could all go wrong ? 

Is it not scaremongering to try and scare people into changing their votes by focusing on the negatives ?
		
Click to expand...

Only if you aren't mature enough to weigh up different sides of an argument before reaching a decision, and consider other people's opinions as frightening rather than just different.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The dictionary definition of xenophobia is.......

"an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or  strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

Withdrawing from a structure for international cooperation isn't xenophobic although the reasons behind some of those wanting to leave might be considered as such.
		
Click to expand...

Well..... if you want to get all literal about it!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I look forwards to the conservative party extolling the virtues of local authorities in the next election, just to put balanced facts across.  Or UKIP waxing lyrical about the positive impact immigrants have had on the cultural and social tapestry of British life. And can't wait to hear Corbyn arguing in favour of privatizating the air we breath. All in the interests of giving enough information of course.

And I think the government have said a bit more than 'it's a jump into the dark'. It's a bit like summing up the leave campaign with 'They don't trust Brussels'.  Both kind of sum up the arguments in a short pithy way, but both hide a multitude of more complex and nuanced points underneath.   But if all you ever hear is 'jump in the dark' then carry on, selective hearing is a great thing.

And as for not getting enough comment and opinion (as as we have already established, no one knows for sure what will happen) then read a paper. Or tune into Radio 5 or 4. Or watch the news.  Or read all this thread.  It's not difficult.
		
Click to expand...

Regarding UKIP on immigration.  I have heard them saying they want a points based system that does not favour EU migrants verses the rest of the World.  They have been saying that currently highly skilled people from places like India, China, Australia etc are disadvantaged in our immigration system when unskilled EU migrants have no restrictions.

The subjects you are mentioning here are not subject to a referendum so not comparing apples with apples.   I put it to you, why are so many people saying they are undecided due to not having enough information for both sides of the matter.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding UKIP on immigration.  I have heard them saying they want a points based system that does not favour EU migrants verses the rest of the World.  They have been saying that currently highly skilled people from places like India, China, Australia etc are disadvantaged in our immigration system when unskilled EU migrants have no restrictions.

The subjects you are mentioning here are not subject to a referendum so not comparing apples with apples.*   I put it to you, why are so many people saying they are undecided due to not having enough information for both sides of the matter*.
		
Click to expand...

I put it back to you, there is plenty of comment and opinion out there in the media from both sides.  There is no conspiracy that will be blown wide open by by Mulder and Scully to hide it from the great British public. 

It really is not that difficult to find it out if you want to. If you want hard and fast facts on what will happen after either way then you are not going to find it as no one knows.  All people are doing is putting forwards an opinion based on their knowledge, experience, blinkered prejudices, xenophobia, self interest, what their mates said, how much that hate Michael Gove, etc etc.  Most people will probably vote on their gut instinct anyway.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I put it back to you, there is plenty of comment and opinion out there in the media from both sides.  There is no conspiracy that will be blown wide open by by Mulder and Scully to hide it from the great British public. 

It really is not that difficult to find it out if you want to. If you want hard and fast facts on what will happen after either way then you are not going to find it as no one knows.  All people are doing is putting forwards an opinion based on their knowledge, experience, blinkered prejudices, xenophobia, self interest, what their mates said, how much that hate Michael Gove, etc etc.  Most people will probably vote on their gut instinct anyway.
		
Click to expand...

I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate.     I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information.  Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers.  Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or  'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France'  or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth.    What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics being supported by no less that our own Prime Minister.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate.     I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information.  Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers.  Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or  'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France'  or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth.    What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics that is being supported by no less that our Prime Minister.
		
Click to expand...

That is democracy. 

The man in the street should read these stories and those that make, as yet, unsubstantiated claims that we will be better off if we leave and will be able to trade freely with whoever we wish as well as apparently being able to stop the flow of asylum-seekers.

Having listened to all these conflicting claims he or she then decides


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hogan have you come up with any reasons to stay in the EU yet ?
		
Click to expand...

The knowledge, experience and relative certainty we have today of the stability, security and access to the single market provided by membership of the EU will do me fine.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia. We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.
		
Click to expand...

Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now?  Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

*I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some.*

Click to expand...

Yes - we have read and heard a lot of this over the last few weeks - but mostly I'd say not from those on these boards - we are hearing it from those in the real world who are close to these matters.  But whenever they make such observations they are accused of scaremongering!  In many cases their jobs require them to understand what drives their 'business' and understand the risks to their business.   They do not have Cameron wielding the sword of Damocles over them and threatening decapitation if they don't highlight risks - they are simply stating the risks as they see them.  

Is this the collusion between Cameron and those with a vested interest in staying in,  well of course it is.  They are on the same side of the argument and so will work together to achieve their preferred outcome.  That _Leave_ shout 'foul' over such collusion is indicative of a campaign that is unable to state solid and achievable mitigations to the risks being pointed out.  As a Risk Manager I would be being delinquent if I allowed owners of risks to just say 'it'll be OK' or 'it won't happen' - and bosses of major companies would be negligent and not doing their job if they did not highlight the risks of leaving to their shareholders.  

Theirs isn't scaremongering - theirs is simply stating the risks and implicitly challenging the _Leave_ campaign to come up wit the risk mitigations and contingency plans.  But as they seem unable to do either _Leave_ resort to shouts of 'project fear', 'scaremongering', 'collusion' and, fairly pathetically, stuff like 'dodgy dossier'.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now?  Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.

How can we lead from within when we are one of twenty eight.  And looking at the EU and international cooperation just look at Greece and what is happening with the migrant flow, the EU seem incapable of coming up with a solution, Australia found one but they were not manacled by big brother.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Totally disagree. Withdrawing from *the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. *We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now?  Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.
		
Click to expand...

Two grand sweeping statements of the sort so beloved of Leavers - but substantiated by what evidence?  

Serious disagreement on some matters does not in itself make chaos - in fact it is perhaps more akin to democracy;  and yes - we are a global power and so would be *even more* attractive to the RoW than we are today were it not for those dastardly EUropeans - who through their silly and petty rules prevent the UK from becoming that global force we know it should be.  Aye that'll be right.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - we have read and heard a lot of this over the last few weeks - but mostly I'd say not from those on these boards - we are hearing it from those in the real world who are close to these matters.  But whenever they make such observations they are accused of scaremongering!  In many cases their jobs require them to understand what drives their 'business' and understand the risks to their business.   They do not have Cameron wielding the sword of Damocles over them and threatening decapitation if they don't highlight risks - they are simply stating the risks as they see them.  

Is this the collusion between Cameron and those with a vested interest in staying in,  well of course it is.  They are on the same side of the argument and so will work together to achieve their preferred outcome.  That _Leave_ shout 'foul' over such collusion is indicative of a campaign that is unable to state solid and achievable mitigations to the risks being pointed out.  As a Risk Manager I would be being delinquent if I allowed owners of risks to just say 'it'll be OK' or 'it won't happen' - and bosses of major companies would be negligent and not doing their job if they did not highlight the risks of leaving to their shareholders.  

Theirs isn't scaremongering - theirs is simply stating the risks and implicitly challenging the _Leave_ campaign to come up wit the risk mitigations and contingency plans.  But as they seem unable to do either _Leave_ resort to shouts of 'project fear', 'scaremongering', 'collusion' and, fairly pathetically, stuff like 'dodgy dossier'.
		
Click to expand...

You have taken my post out of context.  It was a reply to an earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the Leave group so I listed some from the Stay.     Please don't do that!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You have taken my post out of context.  It was a reply to an earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the Leave group so I listed some from the Stay.     Please don't do that!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - I missed the earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the _Leave_ campaign - though I may have missed it as I'm surprised anyone would actually suggest that, as it is most certainly not the case. 

My point remains about the way _Leave_ convert statements of risk made by _Remain_ into 'scaremongering' as their way of avoiding addressing the risk with a mitigation.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The knowledge, experience and relative certainty we have today of the stability, security and access to the single market provided by membership of the EU will do me fine.
		
Click to expand...

In other words you've shouted and screamed about scare tactics, and demanded hard facts and evidence but when you're asked to provide the same for Stay you come up with ONE sentence. WOW! That is a convincing argument. Seriously, that's what you're hanging your hat on?

I wonder what stability, security and access to the single market Norway has...? I wonder how Norway achieved the status of the best place to live in the WORLD when it isn't a member of the EU?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate.     I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information.  Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers.  Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or  'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France'  or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth.    What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics being supported by no less that our own Prime Minister.
		
Click to expand...

The government is presenting their opinion to the electorate. I get that you do not agree with it and think all they are doing is peddling scare stories. But they have an opinion, a vested interest in the outcome so of course they will make their case on the biggest political decision in a long time. 

If you are looking for someone to blame for not getting balanced facts then blame the media, The Mail, The Guardian. It is their job to cut through all the spin and scaremongering and present information to the population so that they can understand it, not the government's role to be politically neutral. 

And just think how much worse we will be if the tories do murdochs bidding for him and neuter the BBC, arguably the most neutral media outlet in this country. Just think how difficult it will be then to get a balanced view...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now?  Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.
		
Click to expand...

My view on the EU is despite Cameron not because of him. Of course we haven't been leading in the EU, we have always been reluctant members. My point is that we should embrace it wholeheartedly in a manner we haven't so far. Obviously, however that can never happen under a Tory party that continues to be utterly divided on the issue.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - how many clubs are thriving because of being in the  EU ?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - *how many clubs are thriving because of being in the  EU* ?
		
Click to expand...

Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....


----------



## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....

Click to expand...

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

&#128077;


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			My view on the EU is despite Cameron not because of him. Of course we haven't been leading in the EU, we have always been reluctant members. My point is that we should embrace it wholeheartedly in a manner we haven't so far. Obviously, however that can never happen under a Tory party that continues to be utterly divided on the issue.
		
Click to expand...

How can you blame Cameron and the Tory Party, this has been the problem from the get go and continued no matter which government was in control. Labour have a leader who has argued for out all of his political career as have a number of Labour members, funny how they are all hiding behind the sofa now.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - how many clubs are thriving because of being in the  EU ?
		
Click to expand...

All of those with massive squads holding many EU players, if we weren't in we could have a system where only a set amount of foreign players can be in any particular club.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 8, 2016)

Today's news helps the out argument as far as I'm concerned.

We have a meeting with all the EU leaders over the refugee problem which know doubt cost thousands and only proposals and not action has come about, but wait a minute, we will have another party costing thousands next week and have another chat.

Over a year ago the UN came up with a possible solution which only Cameron wanted to adopt and that was all refugees were to be sorted and documented in camps within the Middle East and they would be despatched to countries from there. Word would have soon got back to refugees trying other methods that no matter how much they paid these smuggling gangs, they would be transported back to the camps.

Oranisations like the EU are like committee meetings, the bigger the committee the longer it takes to get things done.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			How can you blame Cameron and the Tory Party, this has been the problem from the get go and continued no matter which government was in control. Labour have a leader who has argued for out all of his political career as have a number of Labour members, funny how they are all hiding behind the sofa now.
		
Click to expand...

Not blaming anyone. However, the Tories have been tearing themselves apart on this issue for as long as I can remember, well before Cameron came on the scene, so it's unthinkable that they will ever come round. My point wasn't about Labour, who obviously aren't there either, but (if you're asking) I do think there's more possibility they could eventually fully embrace Europe.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....

Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			In other words you've shouted and screamed about scare tactics, and demanded hard facts and evidence but when you're asked to provide the same for Stay you come up with ONE sentence. WOW! That is a convincing argument. Seriously, that's what you're hanging your hat on?

I wonder what stability, security and access to the single market Norway has...? I wonder how Norway achieved the status of the best place to live in the WORLD when it isn't a member of the EU?
		
Click to expand...

I don;t think I haven *once * complained about scare tactics being employed by _Leave_ - though some proponents of that position have started throwing in concerns about membership of the EU being a threat to UK security.  I *have* complained about _Leave_ turning much of what _Remain_ say into scare stories.  

And as a supporter of _Remain_ that one sentence, explained in more detail by another poster earlier if you want it fleshed out, and reiterated by others, does it for me.  They are absolutely crucial factors pertaining to being in or out of the EU - and I don't see any of them being improved upon by us being outside of the EU.  I also really don't have to pull up the the 'fiscal/monetary' facts you require about continuing membership - I am sure that they are all available if you wish to go find them through the Treasury Budget and Spending Reviews and the OBR.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

Old Skier said:



*Today's news helps the out argument as far as I'm concerned.*

We have a meeting with all the EU leaders over the refugee problem which know doubt cost thousands and only proposals and not action has come about, but wait a minute, we will have another party costing thousands next week and have another chat.

Over a year ago the UN came up with a possible solution which only Cameron wanted to adopt and that was all refugees were to be sorted and documented in camps within the Middle East and they would be despatched to countries from there. Word would have soon got back to refugees trying other methods that no matter how much they paid these smuggling gangs, they would be transported back to the camps.

Oranisations like the EU are like committee meetings, the bigger the committee the longer it takes to get things done.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you are expecting that to being in the same way as the 200 small business signing a letter supporting _Leave_- stood up by Brexiteers as a counter to those big businesses who signed a letter supporting _Remain_

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...preneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html

Except that when the 200 business were looked into 119 of them were not registered with Companies House, so likely to be 'sole traders' employing at best a handful of staff.  They have valid views absolutely - but not exactly the significant counter that Brexit have portrayed it as.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...row-over-sole-trader-supporters-a6915851.html

And that's the thing.  It's not that the views of the small businesses are not relevant - but that this was portrayed as something much more that it actually was - and so the public are given the view that there is a balance in business and split opinion between in and out.  There is - but whose view really needs to be heeded a little more - whether you like it or not.  Small business complains of 'red-tape' with being IN (without being given an understanding of the red-tape that will be associated with being OUT);  much big business simply highlights the risks of being OUT.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm guessing you are expecting that to being in the same way as the 200 small business signing a letter supporting _Leave_- stood up by Brexiteers as a counter to those big businesses who signed a letter supporting _Remain_

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...preneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html

Except that when the 200 business were looked into 119 of them were not registered with Companies House, so likely to be 'sole traders' employing at best a handful of staff.  They have valid views absolutely - but not exactly the significant counter that Brexit have portrayed it as.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...row-over-sole-trader-supporters-a6915851.html

Click to expand...

Dont underestimate soe traders.  Yamazaki Machine Tools are the largest machine tool manufacturers in the world and are sole traders.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont underestimate soe traders.  Yamazaki Machine Tools are the largest machine tool manufacturers in the world and are sole traders.
		
Click to expand...

I am sure that if any sole traders of any great significance had signed the letter we'd have heard of it from Brexit by now in response to the analysis carried out by The Independent.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don;t think I haven *once * complained about scare tactics being employed by _Leave_ - though some proponents of that position have started throwing in concerns about membership of the EU being a threat to UK security.  I *have* complained about _Leave_ turning much of what _Remain_ say into scare stories.  

And as a supporter of _Remain_ that one sentence, explained in more detail by another poster earlier if you want it fleshed out, and reiterated by others, does it for me.  They are absolutely crucial factors pertaining to being in or out of the EU - and I don't see any of them being improved upon by us being outside of the EU.  I also really don't have to pull up the the 'fiscal/monetary' facts you require about continuing membership - I am sure that they are all available if you wish to go find them through the Treasury Budget and Spending Reviews and the OBR.
		
Click to expand...

Splitting hairs with the first para Hugh. I was deeply disappointed a few weeks ago to see DC acting like a street fighter and using scare tactics. He had a golden opportunity to take the high moral ground but he chose the same tactics as most of the other politicians, i.e. scare - they're nearly all at it. He was even advised by the 1922 committee to stop the blue on blue attacks.

I do try and find independent info, e.g. post 1013. And I source info on trading agreements that non-EU countries have with the EU to try and predict what we might have. There's a mountain of good info out there but people are too lazy to source it, preferring it to be served up by those with self interest or from the biased media.

I'm a leave, almost, but my final decision will be based on verifiable info, not from most politicians.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Imagine a simple grammar mistake bringing them all out 

Will post it again 

For the suggestion that we should go full in with EU does that mean joining the Euro

And which "countries" are thriving because of being in the EU


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine a simple grammar mistake bringing them all out 

Will post it again 

For the suggestion that we should go full in with EU does that mean joining the Euro

And which "countries" are thriving because of being in the EU
		
Click to expand...

Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest.  But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest.  But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean investment from money that the country have put in themselves anyway ?


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest.  But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.
		
Click to expand...

Benefited from investment from the EU...?Lets say that there is a project that costs Â£100million. The EU grant = a max of 50%, i.e. Â£50million. The UK then pays the other Â£50million.We've already paid the EU Â£110billion to be in the club, and in this example we're paying another Â£50million. As we already contribute Â£14billion more than we get back, and we then add in all the half payments on projects, you could say that the Â£100mill project is wholly our money + a % of the Â£14billion extra we've paid which just disappears.Picking a random figure out of the air, lets say that a conservative estimate of all the projects we have to pay half for is Â£500million...If you think we receive investment from the EU, you're are naÃ¯ve. They actually tell us where and when we can spend our money if we want funding with what was our money to start with... I'm sure the BBC could do a good comedy sketch on that one, a Yes Minister type...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

This from someone living where grants will be / are given to freely.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean investment from money that the country have put in themselves anyway ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway.  One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 8, 2016)

Also....who saw THAT coming from the Turks. (I did) LMAO !!!!!! No wonder their Prime Minister was smirking in all his pre meeting interviews. 

Well done that man !!!!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I think we should get back exactly what we put in not be Net contributors where our money is used to help other countries when there is a lot of areas within the UK that could do with help first


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway.  One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'
		
Click to expand...

So you are OK with the EU taking precedence over the UK elected Government.   We have our own method of moderating the Government, it's called the Ballot Box, the Opposition and the House of Lords, we don't really need another.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway.  One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'
		
Click to expand...

Why is it not as simple as that ?

The money we put into the EU is controlled by people that we don't vote in - sorry but that doesn't seem right to me. Would much rather our money is managed by people the country vote in and use the money to look after ourselves first


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think we should get back exactly what we put in not be Net contributors where our money is used to help other countries when there is a lot of areas within the UK that could do with help first
		
Click to expand...

So we (and presumably, therefore, all member states?) should get back exactly what they pay in? Is that really what you're saying? I think I'm maybe not following your logic because that is plainly absurd.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Two grand sweeping statements of the sort so beloved of Leavers - but substantiated by what evidence?  

Serious disagreement on some matters does not in itself make chaos - in fact it is perhaps more akin to democracy;  and yes - we are a global power and so would be *even more* attractive to the RoW than we are today were it not for those dastardly EUropeans - who through their silly and petty rules prevent the UK from becoming that global force we know it should be.  Aye that'll be right.
		
Click to expand...

Evidence there for all to see (or those who care to see). The eu is a chaotic mess, disagreement amongst neighbours, barbed wire fences, borders being closed, countries going bankrupt having to be bailed out etc. etc.  
Of course the eu bars the UK from free trade and cooperation with the wider world. Everything has to be ok'd through brussels, we can't trade freely.
Whether we become a global force is debatable, but it can't happen being stymied by the eu. It may just happen given the freedom to run ourselves, which the Stay lobby are dead against.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is it not as simple as that ?

*The money we put into the EU is controlled by people that we don't vote in* - sorry but that doesn't seem right to me. Would much rather our money is managed by people the country vote in and use the money to look after ourselves first
		
Click to expand...

Of course we have a say - when we elect MEPs.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So we (and presumably, therefore, all member states?) should get back exactly what they pay in? Is that really what you're saying? I think I'm maybe not following your logic because that is plainly absurd.
		
Click to expand...

Why is that absurd ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course we have a say - when we elect MEPs.
		
Click to expand...

Do the MEP control the finances of the EU ?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are OK with the EU taking precedence over the UK elected Government.   We have our own method of moderating the Government, it's called the Ballot Box, the Opposition and the House of Lords, we don't really need another.
		
Click to expand...

Well no party in government has got over 45% of the total votes cast in decades in a voting system that is often argued by many, including the good old UKIPers, to be very unfair when it comes to representation based on the votes and will of the people. Most oppositions in the recent past have been mostly toothless from both sides of the political spectrum as the opposition parties spend most of the time in turmoil and falling out with each other as they are not in power. And the House of Lords is filled by political appointments by the government of the day.  If you think that is proper moderation then you have more faith in the system than I do.  

As for taking precedence then the things that mostly concern me in my day to day life are education and the economy.  And I don't see the EU telling us what we should be doing in those areas much.  But as I always say that is what matters to me and other things like immigration will matter more to others.  So feel free to make your mind up using those examples.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

No I don't but I do believe that we should pay less of a net contribution. I also believe that the EU was foolish to let in countries that didn't reach the benchmark originally set, which we are now paying for. And I feel bringing Turkey in, who are even further from the benchmark, is just madness.

If you have 20 countries sharing Â£200 they get Â£10 each, some more and some less. All for it, but when you then starting adding to the number of countries but not increasing the pot greatly because of relative poverty of those countries being added, everyone gets less apart from the new joiners who get something they didn't previously have.

This means that there's less going around in our own economy. The high and mid earners don't feel the pinch but those at the bottom do.

If others prefer that the man in a village in Turkey can buy an extra donkey whilst our own low earners are pushed through the poverty threshold, crack on but its not for me.

As for being Xenophobic...? Absolutely hilarious.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course we have a say - when we elect MEPs.
		
Click to expand...

They will always me a minority and will generally be outvoted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well no party in government has got over 45% of the total votes cast in decades in a voting system that is often argued by many, including the good old UKIPers, to be very unfair when it comes to representation based on the votes and will of the people. Most oppositions in the recent past have been mostly toothless from both sides of the political spectrum as the opposition parties spend most of the time in turmoil and falling out with each other as they are not in power. And the House of Lords is filled by political appointments by the government of the day.  If you think that is proper moderation then you have more faith in the system than I do.  

As for taking precedence then the things that mostly concern me in my day to day life are education and the economy.  *And I don't see the EU telling us what we should be doing in those areas much.*  But as I always say that is what matters to me and other things like immigration will matter more to others.  So feel free to make your mind up using those examples.
		
Click to expand...

You said:

"One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day"   

So you would be happy for them to moderate our elected Government where they see necessary?


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You said:

"One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day"   

So you would be happy for them to moderate our elected Government where they see necessary?
		
Click to expand...

I doubt he'd want our govt moderating if it was of his political persuasion. There's been govts down the years I haven't been happy with but I've accepted it because it has been the choice of the UK electorate to put them there. Having some of our own wishing to usurp our own elected officials using and outside agency because they don't like their policies is about as undemocratic as you can get.


----------



## oxymoron (Mar 8, 2016)

There seems to be a lot of ifs and whats poping up around this and its just confusing the heck out of everyone , the latest comment from
Claud Juncker ( hope i spelled it right) is that we may be responsible for a new world war !!!! WTF goes through these peoples minds? Can we just stick to the rights and wrongs and be clear on this entire subject , its beggining to drive me away from the EU if this is is the mentality of the top men running the show.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			There seems to be a lot of ifs and whats poping up around this and its just confusing the heck out of everyone , the latest comment from
Claud Juncker ( hope i spelled it right) is that we may be responsible for a new world war !!!! WTF goes through these peoples minds? Can we just stick to the rights and wrongs and be clear on this entire subject , its beggining to drive me away from the EU if this is is the mentality of the top men running the show.
		
Click to expand...

I don't recall him saying that we may be responsible for a world war if we leave  sounds like newspaper hyperbole


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do the MEP control the finances of the EU ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I believe they do. Happy to be corrected if wrong though.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They will always me a minority and will generally be outvoted.
		
Click to expand...

You could say that for any individual state, but on the basis of the political spectrum they will work with similar parties from other countries to achieve shared aims.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Yes I believe they do. Happy to be corrected if wrong though.
		
Click to expand...

So as a country that is a net contributor do we have the same sort majority say for where the money goes ?


----------



## oxymoron (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't recall him saying that we may be responsible for a world war if we leave  sounds like newspaper hyperbole
		
Click to expand...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...r-Brussels-peace-Brexit-David-Cameron?ref=yfp
Not normally an Express reader but this really got my eye , scaremongering at its best me thinks .


----------



## MarkE (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't recall him saying that we may be responsible for a world war if we leave  sounds like newspaper hyperbole
		
Click to expand...

This was from the Express, but was widely reported in the written press and tv, it certainly sounds as though he was intimating exactly that:http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...e-Juncker-Brussels-peace-Brexit-David-Cameron


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You could say that for any individual state, but on the basis of the political spectrum they will work with similar parties from other countries to achieve shared aims.
		
Click to expand...

If only the Visigard group of countries didn't band together when voting I'd be inclined to agree with you. In theory, what you are saying works, but in practice...


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So as a country that is a net contributor do we have the same sort majority say for where the money goes ?
		
Click to expand...

You're conflating two separate things. As one of the larger economies I fully expect us to contribute more than we receive - that seems simple. Otherwise we'd be receiving subsidies from poorer countries. I don't think that putting more into the pot should allow you to buy more influence on how it is spent.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You're conflating two separate things. As one of the larger economies I fully expect us to contribute more than we receive - that seems simple. Otherwise we'd be receiving subsidies from poorer countries. I don't think that putting more into the pot should allow you to buy more influence on how it is spent.
		
Click to expand...

Well I actually think we shouldn't be putting into any pot that other countries can use - why should we subsidies poorer countries when we have our own issues at home. 

Is it selfish - yes it prob is , but unless everything is perfect in the UK then think we should be doing as much as possible to ensure we spend our money on our issues.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

oxymoron said:



http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...r-Brussels-peace-Brexit-David-Cameron?ref=yfp
Not normally an Express reader but this really got my eye , scaremongering at its best me thinks .
		
Click to expand...

I just had a visit to the Express' website (probably on some sort of list now) and their top story was...

CONSPIRACY theorists are stocking up on food supplies amid fears the world could end from TODAY when a total eclipse of the...
FOUR DAYS LEFT Freak supermoon eclipse asteroid same day signal end world 
Freak supermoon, eclipse and asteroid to converge TODAY in staggeringly rare phenomenon

SO I'd take whatever is written there a pinch of salt, to say the least.

As far as Juncker's comments he's not the popular bloke but as far as I can tell he said that peace in Europe shouldn't be taken for granted. I don't think anyone can argue with that.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I actually think we shouldn't be putting into any pot that other countries can use - *why should we subsidies poorer countries when we have our own issues at home. *

Is it selfish - yes it prob is , but unless everything is perfect in the UK then think we should be doing as much as possible to ensure we spend our money on our issues.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I believe it's in our national interest that Europe prospers, and if our contribution to the EU assists in that it's for our collective good.

Of course there are issues in our country, but I don't think they'll be resolved by leaving the EU.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Personally I believe it's in our national interest that Europe prospers, and if our contribution to the EU assists in that it's for our collective good.

Of course there are issues in our country, but I don't think they'll be resolved by leaving the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Where as i believe it's in our own interest to see ourselves prosper first - issues may not be resolved if we left the EU but then we would at least be able to make our own changes - instead of putting money into sorting out someone else medical services we put that money into sorting our own out first as an example. 

I don't see the EU as a fair society - it doesn't encourage the poorer countries to help themselves first and foremost - it allows them to be bailed out. 

There is a big world beyond Europe and other countries have no problems prospering without the EU - so why shouldn't we


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You could say that for any individual state, but on the basis of the political spectrum they will work with similar parties from other countries to achieve shared aims.
		
Click to expand...

You do understand that our main representation is by UKIP?


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where as i believe it's in our own interest to see ourselves prosper first - issues may not be resolved if we left the EU but then we would at least be able to make our own changes - instead of putting money into sorting out someone else medical services we put that money into sorting our own out first as an example. 

I don't see the EU as a fair society - it doesn't encourage the poorer countries to help themselves first and foremost - it allows them to be bailed out. 

There is a big world beyond Europe and other countries have no problems prospering without the EU - so why shouldn't we
		
Click to expand...

What type of changes would you like to see that aren't possible as members of the EU?

"other countries have no problems prospering without the EU" is very vague! If you look at the G7 our economy has been the fastest growing in the past couple of years. It may grow even quicker outside the EU, but there's also a risk that it could go the other way - and stating such isn't scaremongering! All things considered, at the moment it doesn't feel worth rolling the dice.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You do understand that our main representation is by UKIP?
		
Click to expand...

Well UKIP have 24 of the 73 seats, so not quite our "main representation". A significant chunk nevertheless, and suspect there is no coincidence that the absolute number of votes for UKIP was very similar between the European and General Elections.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			What type of changes would you like to see that aren't possible as members of the EU?

"other countries have no problems prospering without the EU" is very vague! If you look at the G7 our economy has been the fastest growing in the past couple of years. It may grow even quicker outside the EU, but there's also a risk that it could go the other way - and stating such isn't scaremongering! All things considered, at the moment it doesn't feel worth rolling the dice.
		
Click to expand...

The ability to spend our money where we see fit

The ability to broker trade deals with other areas outside of the EU on the terms we decide between those countries 

The ability to decide who and how many people from the EU will allow to come to work in this country 

The ability to dictate levels of fish and farming people can do within our lands and water

The ability to create and adjust laws that affect our people in our country. 

And be the masters of our destiny.


----------



## Del_Boy (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So as a country that is a net contributor do we have the same sort majority say for where the money goes ?
		
Click to expand...

Wish the same logic worked in terms of the taxes I pay in against the benefit I get out


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ability to spend our money where we see fit *We already have this*

The ability to broker trade deals with other areas outside of the EU on the terms we decide between those countries *Do you actually think we hold morepower than the EU and could therefore negotiate better deals?*

The ability to decide who and how many people from the EU will allow to come to work in this country *Do you think we would actually limit it more than currently, given our need for working age people*

The ability to dictate levels of fish and farming people can do within our lands and water *Minor, minor point. *

The ability to create and adjust laws that affect our people in our country. *We already have this*

And be the masters of our destiny *If the option was to fail by ourselves or succeed as part of the EU, would you still share this view?*

Click to expand...

Comments in the above quote (for everyone, not just LPP)


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is that absurd ?
		
Click to expand...



Pretty obvious, isn't it? How does any organisation that refunds 100% of its member's subs fund itself?

We pay to be part of the EU and we get certain benefits (and obligations) for that. You can have a legitimate discussion as to whether or not we get value for money but anyone who thinks we should get back all the money we put in is being ridiculous.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ability to spend our money where we see fit

The ability to broker trade deals with other areas outside of the EU on the terms we decide between those countries 

The ability to decide who and how many people from the EU will allow to come to work in this country 

The ability to dictate levels of fish and farming people can do within our lands and water

The ability to create and adjust laws that affect our people in our country. 

And be the masters of our destiny.
		
Click to expand...

How very dare you be so aspirational! Don't you know that Chicken Licken told Henny Penny the sky is falling down...


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ability to spend our money where we see fit

The ability to broker trade deals with other areas outside of the EU on the terms we decide between those countries 

The ability to decide who and how many people from the EU will allow to come to work in this country 

The ability to dictate levels of fish and farming people can do within our lands and water

The ability to create and adjust laws that affect our people in our country. 

And be the masters of our destiny.
		
Click to expand...

A fair list, particularly with regards to migration, but I think many points are overstated.

I guess it comes down to whether one believes we will continue to do as well economically outside the EU. Just looking at the fall of the pound when BoJo announced his decision gives me reservations on that!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Comments in the above quote (for everyone, not just LPP)
		
Click to expand...

So we can dictate where every penny goes or do we put money into the EU pot then the EU spends it ? If we put in 14 billion for example do we get to say where every single one of those pounds gets spent ? 

How much trade do we have with other commonwealth countries for example ? Should we not have the ability to trade with them without having to go via the EU ? 

Yes I believe we could determine the levels of people coming into the country to suit us not the rest of Europe. 

It's not a minor point to all the farmers and fisherman who have seen their livelihoods put at risk due to quotas imposed on our waters and our land by other countries ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:





Pretty obvious, isn't it? How does any organisation that refunds 100% of its member's subs fund itself?

We pay to be part of the EU and we get certain benefits (and obligations) for that. You can have a legitimate discussion as to whether or not we get value for money but anyone who thinks we should get back all the money we put in is being ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

Hence why I believe our country shouldn't be part of the organisation to ensure we can dictate where we spend all our money and attempt to get more value for our own money


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Comments in the above quote (for everyone, not just LPP)
		
Click to expand...

#1. No we don't. The EU laws on subsidies is very clear. Even though the UK wanted to give a number of reliefs and subsidies to the steel industry, the EU laws wouldn't allow it.

#2. The EU stipulates a single trade tariff based on the country its coming from and the commodity they have. We have argued many times for preferred terms for our Commonwealth countries but been told no.

#3. Do you honestly think an open border policy with all of the EU actually suits everyone? People migrate towards wealth, not away from it, that's why the southern European countries are only staging posts for people passing through.

#5 Create and adjust laws.... eldest daughter is a senior barrister in govt... hahahahaha... you couldn't be further from the truth....hahhahahahaha

Your last point is a loaded question, and is barely worth a response. Of course everyone wants to succeed.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			A fair list, particularly with regards to migration, but I think many points are overstated.

I guess it comes down to whether one believes we will continue to do as well economically outside the EU. Just looking at the fall of the pound when BoJo announced his decision gives me reservations on that!
		
Click to expand...

I think points on both sides are always over stated 

I'm very much in favour of strength in numbers but I believe we can be that power of strength within the combined countries of the U.K. 

When i look at the list of what the EU does for us - it's quite hard to see something on there that either we couldn't achieve by ourselves or something that isn't that strong enough of a reason to stay within the EU 

Always will be reservations if going on your own and there will no doubt be a political backlash from other countries but I do have a strong belief that once that does die down we would find our place pretty quickly within the world and EU wouldn't just stop dealing with us and we would find ourselves in a stronger position.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a minor point to all the farmers and fisherman who have seen their livelihoods put at risk due to quotas imposed on our waters and our land by other countries ?
		
Click to expand...

And why are those quotas in place?


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			#1. No we don't. The EU laws on subsidies is very clear. Even though the UK wanted to give a number of reliefs and subsidies to the steel industry, the EU laws wouldn't allow it.

#2. The EU stipulates a single trade tariff based on the country its coming from and the commodity they have. We have argued many times for preferred terms for our Commonwealth countries but been told no.

#3. Do you honestly think an open border policy with all of the EU actually suits everyone? People migrate towards wealth, not away from it, that's why *the southern European countries are only staging posts for people passing through.*

#5 Create and adjust laws.... eldest daughter is a senior barrister in govt... hahahahaha... you couldn't be further from the truth....hahhahahahaha

Your last point is a loaded question, and is barely worth a response. Of course everyone wants to succeed.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately this part just discredits everything else you've written.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			And why are those quotas in place?
		
Click to expand...

Decline is stocks in the waters - which hasn't changed a bit since the policy came into place but has affected whole towns


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think points on both sides are always over stated 

I'm very much in favour of strength in numbers but I believe we can be that power of strength within the combined countries of the U.K. 

When i look at the list of what the EU does for us - it's quite hard to see something on there that either we couldn't achieve by ourselves or something that isn't that strong enough of a reason to stay within the EU 

Always will be reservations if going on your own and there will no doubt be a political backlash from other countries but I do have a strong belief that once that does die down we would find our place pretty quickly within the world and EU wouldn't just stop dealing with us and we would find ourselves in a stronger position.
		
Click to expand...

Similarly at the moment I am not seeing a compelling reason for making such a big decision. To have an immigration policy would be the key one for me, though currently not convinced if that is worth the risk to the economy, effect on jobs etc. Feels a bit isolationist, especially at a time as politics in general seems to be diverging from the center ground.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Decline is stocks in the waters - which hasn't changed a bit since the policy came into place but has affected whole towns
		
Click to expand...

What would the solution be if we weren't constrained by the quotas? More intensive fishing may rejuvenate towns in the short term but it doesn't seem sustainable.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Similarly at the moment I am not seeing a compelling reason for making such a big decision. To have an immigration policy would be the key one for me, though currently not convinced if that is worth the risk to the economy, effect on jobs etc. Feels a bit isolationist, especially at a time as politics in general seems to be diverging from the center ground.
		
Click to expand...

Totally respect your choice and desicion because it looks like you aren't fully of negatives and scaremongering etc 

I still think that there needs to be more information given from both sides instead of the current tactics being deployed


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			What would the solution be if we weren't constrained by the quotas? More intensive fishing may rejuvenate towns in the short term but it doesn't seem sustainable.
		
Click to expand...

Again it's all guesswork right now because it's so very hard to judge when or even if stocks would run out - the stocks could last decades and decades 

But even if a quota is needed it should be decided and run by ourselves not the EU 

Also under this policy if a boat catches more than the quota they have to thrown the fish back - dead ! How daft is that


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why I believe our country shouldn't be part of the organisation to ensure we can dictate where we spend all our money and attempt to get more value for our own money
		
Click to expand...

So it's purely an economic argument to you? 

Very few of us are qualified to argue the detailed economics of EU membership but, for me, it's about so much more than just money. Coming out of the EU would be the wrong "direction of travel" - as people of the world, not just Europe we need to be coming together, even if that means some pain for the richer nations.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's purely an economic argument to you? 

Very few of us are qualified to argue the detailed economics of EU membership but, for me, it's about so much more than just money. Coming out of the EU would be the wrong "direction of travel" - as people of the world, not just Europe we need to be coming together, even if that means some pain for the richer nations.
		
Click to expand...

Economics will always have a big say because it could also give more a better life within this country - more money going into our NHS , more going towards building homes , creating more jobs. 

IMO you don't have to be part of an organisation to work together or make things better between countries.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's purely an economic argument to you? 

Very few of us are qualified to argue the detailed economics of EU membership but, for me, it's about so much more than just money. Coming out of the EU would be the wrong "direction of travel" - as people of the world, not just Europe we need to be coming together, even if that means some pain for the richer nations.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't applying that sentiment only to the EU a bit narrow.  Should we not be considering the rest of the world more than the relatively wealthy EU.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't applying that sentiment only to the EU a bit narrow.  Should we not be considering the rest of the world more than the relatively wealthy EU.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, that's what I was saying, but one step at a time. I'm all for people of the world coming together but don't expect to see it in my lifetime since we can't even play nice with the European neighbours with whom we have so much in common.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Absolutely, that's what I was saying, but one step at a time. I'm all for people of the world coming together but don't expect to see it in my lifetime since we can't even play nice with the *European neighbours with whom we have so much in common*.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about that.  I feel I have more in common with commonwealth countries that I do with those in the EU.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not so sure about that.  I feel I have more in common with commonwealth countries that I do with those in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more but I probably have a different perspective on it than you....


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not so sure about that.  I feel I have more in common with commonwealth countries that I do with those in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I'd say we have a lot more in common with the average European country than the average Commonwealth country!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm not sure what criteria to use to judge how much we are in common with other countries 

I feel as a nation we are more in common with Australia and New Zealand compared to France as example 

I'm not sure what we have in common with places like France and Spain ?


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

More to the commonwealth than Australia, NZ & Canada!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			More to the commonwealth than Australia, NZ & Canada!
		
Click to expand...

I know I just used them as examples 

Whilst working in the RAF I have worked alongside a lot of countries from both the Commonwealth and Europe and during those times it's clear to me that we have a connection with people in commonwealth countries and there always seems to be a friendly relationship 

That's just from my expirence


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I'd say we have a lot more in common with the average European country than the average Commonwealth country!
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't doubt you have, but I don't.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I wouldn't doubt you have, but I don't.
		
Click to expand...

I really do doubt that! But you are of course welcome to your opinion.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Unfortunately this part just discredits everything else you've written.
		
Click to expand...

Why? Perhaps you could explain why people are transiting on to Northern Europe? Maybe they just fancy a run out?


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's purely an economic argument to you? 

Very few of us are qualified to argue the detailed economics of EU membership but, for me, it's about so much more than just money. Coming out of the EU would be the wrong "direction of travel" - as people of the world, not just Europe we need to be coming together, even if that means some pain for the richer nations.
		
Click to expand...

As a sentiment I think that's admirable, and i wish it was achievable. Unfortunately we live in a world that is tribal


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			As a sentiment I think that's admirable, and i wish it was achievable. Unfortunately we live in a world that is tribal
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, which is why we need to take the small steps that might eventually get us there. That's why I voted "no" in the independence referendum and it's why I'll be voting to stay in the EU. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part but that's how my conscience will dictate my vote.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly, which is why we need to take the small steps that might eventually get us there. That's why I voted "no" in the independence referendum and it's why I'll be voting to stay in the EU. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part but that's how my conscience will dictate my vote.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with your sentiment and your conscience vote. I disagree but only on the principle of why. For me it's self determination, and nothing else. If we were a hell of a lot closer to your global society I wouldn't hesitate to vote in.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

...and I believe that some of the benefits we get are not easily 'valued' in monetary ways, so for instance many environmental improvements brought about through UK having to adhere to and meet EEC standards and directives.   What monetary value do you put on the health, wellbeing (through reduced illness through water-borne disease ) and leisure benefits we all get individually from much of our river and coastal water meeting the EEC Water Directive Framework.  Yes we may have cleaned up our act without it - but we might not have.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I believe that some of the benefits we get are not easily 'valued' in monetary ways, so for instance many environmental improvements brought about through UK having to adhere to and meet EEC standards and directives.   What monetary value do you put on the health, wellbeing (through reduced illness through water-borne disease ) and leisure benefits we all get individually from much of our river and coastal water meeting the EEC Water Directive Framework.  Yes we may have cleaned up our act without it - but we might not have.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly! :thup:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

So can we not keep those standards if we leave the UK ?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can we not keep those standards if we leave the *UK* ?
		
Click to expand...

You're just wanting to break away from everything now!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're just wanting to break away from everything now! 

Click to expand...

:rofl:

Independence for Leighton Buzzard


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl:

Independence for Leighton Buzzard
		
Click to expand...

And please build a wall around it to keep the Buzzards in


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And please build a wall around it to keep the Buzzards in
		
Click to expand...

Wonderful birds


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Yes I believe they do. Happy to be corrected if wrong though.
		
Click to expand...

Correct - and further - the EU Parliament works with the Council of the EU on budget matters and legislation - the Council comprises government ministers from each EU country - so we are well represented in the decision making and implementing bodies.  Council votes are on a qualified majority basis and decisions can be blocked by the UK working with another 3 counties where the combined population of the four is at least 35% of the total EU population.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl:

Independence for Leighton Buzzard
		
Click to expand...

Well it'll be a dark day for water quality in the Grand Union Canal and do you really want to see those refugee camps springing up in Luton?

:smirk:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well it'll be a dark day for water quality in the Grand Union Canal and do you really want to see those refugee camps springing up in Luton?

:smirk:
		
Click to expand...

Have you seen that Canal ? You can't call that water 

And refugee camps in Luton might improve it


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not so sure about that.  I feel I have more in common with commonwealth countries that I do with those in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that all I have in common (culturally and politically especially) with your average Aussie bloke is that we speak roughly the same language


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can we not keep those standards if we leave the UK ?
		
Click to expand...

We wouldn't have to...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We wouldn't have to...
		
Click to expand...

That didn't answer the question 

Could we keep to those standard if we left the EU


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suspect that all I have in common (culturally and politically especially) with your average Aussie bloke is that we speak roughly the same language
		
Click to expand...

I have many relatives in OZ, probably more than I have in the UK, I also have a number in NZ.   Have you noticed a similarity with their National Flags.   They have the same Queen as head of state and many of them are of British descent.

I have no such ties with EU Countries.  Maybe you do but hey ho, Vive La Difference as they say.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I really do doubt that! But you are of course welcome to your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you doubt that I don't have more in common with EU countries?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I believe that some of the benefits we get are not easily 'valued' in monetary ways, so for instance many environmental improvements brought about through UK having to adhere to and meet EEC standards and directives.   What monetary value do you put on the health, wellbeing (through reduced illness through water-borne disease ) and leisure benefits we all get individually from much of our river and coastal water meeting the EEC Water Directive Framework.  Yes we may have cleaned up our act without it - but we might not have.
		
Click to expand...

I think we learned not to pee upstream a while ago.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That didn't answer the question 

Could we keep to those standard if we left the EU
		
Click to expand...

We could - but we wouldn't have to.  And there is a big difference between having to maintain water quality to a standard and chosing to.  And when push comes to shove those things that are optional can all of a sudden become nice-to-have but not essential.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We could - but we wouldn't have to.  And there is a big difference between having to maintain water quality to a standard and chosing to.  And when push comes to shove those things that are optional can all of a sudden become nice-to-have but not essential.
		
Click to expand...

So we don't need to be in the EU to keep high standards then. Leaving the EU change it then


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I have many relatives in OZ, probably more than I have in the UK, I also have a number in NZ.   Have you noticed a similarity with their National Flags.   They have the same Queen as head of state and many of them are of British descent.

I have no such ties with EU Countries.  Maybe you do but hey ho, Vive La Difference as they say.
		
Click to expand...

National ties and connections Australia has with the UK don't imply very much about the attitudes of your average Aussie bloke.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			National ties and connections Australia has with the UK don't imply very much about the attitudes of your average Aussie bloke.
		
Click to expand...

Attitude of your average Aussie bloke ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we don't need to be in the EU to keep high standards then. Leaving the EU change it then
		
Click to expand...

Look - you know exactly what I'm saying here.  If I have to spell it out I will.  The EU sets environmental standards that the UK has to adhere to.  i do not trust any UK government - especially any wedded to cuts in public spending - to not sacrifice environmental protections and standards at the alter of their predilections - especially when these have short term political benefit.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - you know exactly what I'm saying here.  If I have to spell it out I will.  The EU sets environmental standards that the UK has to adhere to.  i do not trust any UK government - especially any wedded to cuts in public spending - to not sacrifice environmental protections and standards at the alter of their predilections - especially when these have short term political benefit.
		
Click to expand...

But the point is that we don't have to be in the EU to keep those standards - your mistrust is your own issues but I can't see any reason why we as a country would suddenly drop our environmental standards if we were to the leave the EU - I guess Norway has no issues keeping high standards.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - you know exactly what I'm saying here.  If I have to spell it out I will.  The EU sets environmental standards that the UK has to adhere to.  i do not trust any UK government - especially any wedded to cuts in public spending - to not sacrifice environmental protections and standards at the alter of their predilections - especially when these have short term political benefit.
		
Click to expand...

The water industry is privatised for God's sake. Govt,"we're seeing too many admissions due to poor water quality. Which is hurting our NHS. Let's fine the water companies to clean up their act."

c'mon, your argument is as weak as water. Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2016)

This commonwealth and the close ties we have, is that Australia who talk about becoming a republic or New Zealand were they are changing the flag or Canada were 20% of the population speak French?
The Commonwealth and what it means to us is age related imo.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - you know exactly what I'm saying here.  If I have to spell it out I will.  The EU sets environmental standards that the UK has to adhere to.  i do not trust any UK government - especially any wedded to cuts in public spending - to not sacrifice environmental protections and standards at the alter of their predilections - especially when these have short term political benefit.
		
Click to expand...

Have you been to the loo in Greece, parts of Spain, Italy and Portugal not to mention some of the old eastern bloc now EU members?

I really wouldn't worry about our standards dropping to those of large parts of the EU.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just had a brief look through that and there are some things on there that I would say are benefits of staying in the EU but others (from the flow chart type thing with the 4 colours) that I just don't understand why they would change. Things such as clean beaches and bathing water, recycling, cheaper telecoms, food labelling, fair airline ticket pricing and importing cars. I can't see why those things would have to change if we left the EU. It's not like we're suddenly going to be dumping raw sewage onto our blue flag beaches just because we leave. Perhaps someone could explain as there must be more to it but I'm just not seeing it.
		
Click to expand...

Environmental protection and consumer rights are not big features of Tory policy. They prefer to let the dead hand of the market control these things. That only ever means one thing, the average person getting screwed.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			This commonwealth and the close ties we have, is that Australia who talk about becoming a republic or New Zealand were they are changing the flag or Canada were 20% of the population speak French?
The Commonwealth and what it means to us is age related imo.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if you read and tried to digest the discussion you would see that the conversation didn't relate to the UK's ties to OZ and NZ.   I stated a personal preference that I felt more akin to people in these countries tha I did with countries in the EU. I guess I am allowed to hold these views?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Environmental protection and consumer rights are not big features of Tory policy. They prefer to let the dead hand of the market control these things. That only ever means one thing, the average person getting screwed.
		
Click to expand...

I think you may be confusing the current Government with a real Tory one!

Why do you have to blame the Right for everything


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - you know exactly what I'm saying here.  If I have to spell it out I will.  The EU sets environmental standards that the UK has to adhere to.  i do not trust any UK government - especially any wedded to cuts in public spending - to not sacrifice environmental protections and standards at the alter of their predilections - especially when these have short term political benefit.
		
Click to expand...

You don't trust any UK government!  Why not do something proactive, would you not feel better suited to live in an EU country that is committed to full Federal integration to closer EU union.   Somewhere like Scotland?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe if you read and tried to digest the discussion you would see that the conversation didn't relate to the UK's ties to OZ and NZ.   I stated a personal preference that I felt more akin to people in these countries tha I did with countries in the EU. I guess I am allowed to hold these views?
		
Click to expand...

I follow this thread closely thank you as I am undecided and read a lot of valid points and confusing points, my comment was merely on the point about us trading with the commonwealth when we do that anyway and in recent years have seen them not us move away from Britain, even on a Military basis problem during your time and my early career we were heavily involved with jount training with Commonwealth countries were as recently the majority is done with European nations, not that I see either an in or out vote changing that.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Have you been to the loo in Greece, parts of Spain, Italy and Portugal not to mention some of the old eastern bloc now EU members?

I really wouldn't worry about our standards dropping to those of large parts of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Even quite a bit of France - with the squat toilettes Ã  la turque. 

As to the Commonwealth vs Europe, I remember this discussion (as a Commonwealth citizen) when UK joined the EEC. The argument at the time was that UK had become naturally linked with Europe both trade and culturally and that, while the Commonwealth was extremely important, it as natural to look more towards Europe as the 'major' partner!

I do remember it having quite an effect, with NZ losing a guaranteed market for 35000 tons of Butter and the price of both Lamb and Beef increasing dramatically because of EU rules about subsidies  - both after periods of transition. At the time, 'the French' were blamed, and that was even before they sank the Rainbow Warrior!

It actually made NZ more independent, so imo was a good thing!

The main link these days is a, pretty much, common language and sporting rivalries, though military relationships are still, understandably, quite strong.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 9, 2016)

The UK and Europe have always had a natural mistrust of each other. That will never change and we are destined to be uneasy bedfellows whether we are in the EU or not. (Moreso if we are in).  Whereas we have a natural affinity to commonwealth countries.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

And so some are asking - what's the difference between the Director General of the BCC saying what he did and being suspended then chosing to resign, and the Governor of the BoE saying what he said yesterday and that's OK?

It is true that both the BoE and BCC have said they will be neutral on Leave/Remain so how come the guy expressing concerns about leaving is OK whilst the guy expressing positives about leaving is not.  Foul! the cry goes up.  

Well quite straightforward I think. The DG of the BCC expressed a personal view when addressing the BCC Annual Conferernce - he didn't have to and it wasn't the place or time to do that; the Gov of the BoE was asked the question by the HoC Treasury Select Committee.  And so he stated the risk of Leave as the BoE sees it.  Not his opinion - the corporate BoE view of the risk.  

That's why one had to go and the other doesn't


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't trust any UK government!  Why not do something proactive, would you not feel better suited to live in an EU country that is committed to full Federal integration to closer EU union.   Somewhere like Scotland?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately in the political climate we live in I don't really trust any UK government to put what could be spun as 'nice-to-haves' ahead of short term politically expediency.  Though some flavours of government will clearly be less inclined to do so than others.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The UK and Europe have always had a natural mistrust of each other. That will never change and we are destined to be uneasy bedfellows whether we are in the EU or not. (Moreso if we are in).  Whereas we have a natural affinity to commonwealth countries.
		
Click to expand...

Well I for one certainly have no natural affinity with the peoples of Australia, New Zealand or Canada or any other Commonwealth country.

For many years now Australia, for example, has seen its natural trading partners to be in SE Asia or the West Coast of USA and, in view of geographical location and the change in the ethnicity of their population that is perfectly understandable.

We may share a language with some of these countries but then so we do with America and I don't feel a natural affinity towards that country.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 9, 2016)

I was talking in general terms as a nation, not personally. Probably due to the fact we have been at each others throats with one part or another of Europe since the dark ages.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was talking in general terms as a nation, not personally. Probably due to the fact we have been at each others throats with one part or another of Europe since the dark ages.
		
Click to expand...

Whereas we colonised these Commonwealth countries.

Who are we supposed to have the affinity with; the colonists, be they immigrants or originally convicts, or the indigenous peoples of these countries? Australian, aborigines, Maoris or North American Indians.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well I for one certainly have no natural affinity with the peoples of Australia, New Zealand or Canada or any other Commonwealth country.

For many years now Australia, for example, has seen its natural trading partners to be in SE Asia or the West Coast of USA and, in view of geographical location and the change in the ethnicity of their population that is perfectly understandable.

We may share a language with some of these countries but then so we do with America and I don't feel a natural affinity towards that country.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of them died on D Day and supporting us in just about every major conflict in both World Wars.  I would say we owe them rather a lot and will remember them.   You may have no affinity with them and thats fine but unlike you I have a great number of relatives living there and they certainly hold their links to the UK dearly.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Whereas we colonised these Commonwealth countries.

Who are we supposed to have the affinity with; the colonists, be they immigrants or originally convicts, or the indigenous peoples of these countries? Australian, aborigines, Maoris or North American Indians.
		
Click to expand...

Thats like suggesting we should have an affinity to European countries due to our ancestors coming here over the land bridge at the end of the last ice age.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

I see the S@n is doing what it does best - print pure lies and fabrications in regards the Queens view on EU


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so some are asking - what's the difference between the Director General of the BCC saying what he did and being suspended then chosing to resign, and the Governor of the BoE saying what he said yesterday and that's OK?

It is true that both the BoE and BCC have said they will be neutral on Leave/Remain so how come the guy expressing concerns about leaving is OK whilst the guy expressing positives about leaving is not.  Foul! the cry goes up.  

Well quite straightforward I think. The DG of the BCC expressed a personal view when addressing the BCC Annual Conferernce - he didn't have to and it wasn't the place or time to do that; the Gov of the BoE was asked the question by the HoC Treasury Select Committee.  And so he stated the risk of Leave as the BoE sees it.  Not his opinion - the corporate BoE view of the risk.  

That's why one had to go and the other doesn't
		
Click to expand...

Man should be sacked. Economic migrant looking at what's best for him


----------



## Pants (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see the S@n is doing what it does best - print pure lies and fabrications in regards the Queens view on EU
		
Click to expand...

And your proof of this is ?????????

Oh yes, could it be that that nice Nick Clegg "has no recollection" of this?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats like suggesting we should have an affinity to European countries due to our ancestors coming here over the land bridge at the end of the last ice age.
		
Click to expand...

There is obviously a time limit on your appreciation of history in that we should, quite rightly, acknowledge the debt we owe for the support of all Empire and Dominion states during the two World Wars but then overlook the fact that Britain had colonised these countries in the first place and subjugated the indigenous populations.

As for the landbridge connection I am no anthropologist but it would appear to me that, as a nation, we have most in common racially with the peoples of Northern Europe rather than those of the Commonwealth nations.

By all means let us use facts to support our arguments but we should be careful not to be creative with history.


----------



## Leftie (Mar 10, 2016)

Who do you believe less - the Sun or a politician?  Tricky one that.

If Clegg had categorically denied it, then I would have been more inclined to believe him.  Copping out with "no recollection" is saying that "you may very well think that but I couldn't possible comment". 

In my opinion of course


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Copied from Trump thread as this is perhaps more relevant to the EU debate






SocketRocket said:



			OK, thats better, you are suggesting 100,000 a year but thats will be on top of the current 600,000 a year coming into the country.  Also take into account the additional numbers that will probably be flooding in from Turkey when Merkel and our own PM push through their membership.     *Now, where will we house all these people, where will they work, can our schools and NHS that we treasure so much cope with these additional numbers.  Will people also be content with the further Islamification of our culture and the lack of their integration into society.   We need to consider this very seriously before committing.*

I doubt if many will be settled around Chipping Norton.
		
Click to expand...

I agree 100% - and that is why I suggest that a *very *significant shift in thinking and attitude would be required by us all - and an acceptance that whilst most of us would rather like things to continue as they are - I am quite comfortable thankyou - and I do refer to myself - I also don't think it is conscionable for us to largely wash our hands of the immigration problem that Europe faces.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ger147 (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Copied from Trump thread as this is perhaps more relevant to the EU debate
		
Click to expand...

How are you feeling sitting round the table with David and George fighting the good fight to stay in the EU?  Must feel a bit odd for you...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

Pants said:



			And your proof of this is ?????????

Oh yes, could it be that that nice Nick Clegg "has no recollection" of this?  







Click to expand...

I believe the Royal Family have put in an official complaint to the Press association 

Hopefully close the rag down


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the Royal Family have put in an official complaint to the Press association 

Hopefully close the rag down
		
Click to expand...

Close them both down!!

:whoo:


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Close them both down!!

:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Now that's something I can agree with!:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			How are you feeling sitting round the table with David and George fighting the good fight to stay in the EU?  Must feel a bit odd for you... 

Click to expand...

It does.  I feel rather discombobulated by it all


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the Royal Family have put in an official complaint to the Press association 

Hopefully close the rag down
		
Click to expand...

The thing is The Sun knows that now they have said it many of their readers will take any attempt to deny it as evidence that it is true - and any conduct committee investigation will just be a Cameron and _Remain_ attempt to hide the truth.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			How are you feeling sitting round the table with David and George fighting the good fight to stay in the EU?  Must feel a bit odd for you... 

Click to expand...

Not as odd as sitting with Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, Boris Johnston, Frederick Forsyth and the DUP.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			There is obviously a time limit on your appreciation of history in that we should, quite rightly, acknowledge the debt we owe for the support of all Empire and Dominion states during the two World Wars but then overlook the fact that Britain had colonised these countries in the first place and subjugated the indigenous populations.

*As for the landbridge connection I am no anthropologist but it would appear to me that, as a nation, we have most in common racially with the peoples of Northern Europe rather than those of the Commonwealth nations.*

By all means let us use facts to support our arguments but we should be careful not to be creative with history.
		
Click to expand...

Listen to this, it is really interesting on the subject of how close we are racially.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ybg84 

And by the way, not saying you are wrong, but we are a lot closer than most people think.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Not as odd as sitting with Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, Boris Johnston, Frederick Forsyth and the DUP.
		
Click to expand...

LOL - yes indeed :thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listen to this, it is really interesting on the subject of how close we are racially.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ybg84 

And by the way, not saying you are wrong, but we are a lot closer than most people think.
		
Click to expand...

Having over the last few years worked a lot with French, Dutch, Belgians, Romanians, Austrians, Spanish and Germans I do feel a bit of a kindred spirit with most of them - and a lot closer culturally than I do to the Indian teams I work with - brilliant though they are.  I think my favourites to work with are the Germans.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listen to this, it is really interesting on the subject of how close we are racially.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ybg84 

And by the way, not saying you are wrong, but we are a lot closer than most people think.
		
Click to expand...

I think what this confirms is the ongoing tendency to confuse nationality with race and the resultant stupidity that arises from racial/national stereotypes.

Personally I tend to feel an affinity towards people of a like mind to me regardless of their race or nationality. (Sounds like I could soon be moving into the yurt and looking for the yoghurt knitting patterns.)


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Having over the last few years worked a lot with French, Dutch, Belgians, Romanians, Austrians, Spanish and Germans I do feel a bit of a kindred spirit with most of them - and a lot closer culturally than I do to the Indian teams I work with - brilliant though they are.  I think my favourites to work with are the Germans.
		
Click to expand...

It's definitely a 'cultural' thing!

I have worked with several Indian teams in the past and there was definitely a certain way that was successful while other ways would almost certain fail! My ex(1) was a 'tailoring co-ordinator' for a UK based, Europe+ wide, system and used to describe meetings in each country - absolutely true to the stereotypes!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Close them both down!!

:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Now the Royality is a whole different debate.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats like suggesting we should have an affinity to European countries due to our ancestors coming here over the land bridge at the end of the last ice age.
		
Click to expand...

Or, rather later, from Italy, Germany and/or Scandinavia (directly or via Normandy!) - at least in England! With a bit of Celtic migration before that as well!


----------



## MarkE (Mar 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Who are we supposed to have the affinity with; the colonists, be they immigrants or originally convicts, or the indigenous peoples of these countries? Australian, aborigines, Maoris or North American Indians.
		
Click to expand...

You are free to have an affinity with whoever you choose. I happen to regard the commonwealth countries fondly, but not most of Europe. 



MetalMickie said:



			We may share a language with some of these countries but then so we do with America and I don't feel a natural affinity towards that country.
		
Click to expand...

Funnily enough I do and would much rather closer ties with the USA than remain in the EU.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I think what this confirms is the ongoing tendency to confuse nationality with race and the resultant stupidity that arises from racial/national stereotypes.

Personally I tend to feel an affinity towards people of a like mind to me regardless of their race or nationality. *(Sounds like I could soon be moving into the yurt and looking for the yoghurt knitting patterns.)*

Click to expand...

Always a space on the hessian rug in the yurt for like minded individuals......

Anyway, Stephen Hawking has said a Brexit is a bad thing.  And he's cleverer than all of us put together.  So that's sealed the deal for me.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35772714


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You are free to have an affinity with whoever you choose. I happen to regard the commonwealth countries fondly, but not most of Europe. 



*Funnily enough I do and would much rather closer ties with the USA than remain in the EU*.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, let's cosy up with potentially Trump or Cruz who will follow an extremely nationalist 'Buy american at all costs' agenda.  What can possibly go wrong.....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Always a space on the hessian rug in the yurt for like minded individuals......

Anyway, Stephen Hawking has said a Brexit is a bad thing.  And he's cleverer than all of us put together.  So that's sealed the deal for me.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35772714

Click to expand...

What does Hawkins know about anything - ahhh. Physics he knows a bit about...maybe.  Logic has no place in this debate.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yup, let's cosy up with potentially Trump or Cruz who will follow an extremely nationalist 'Buy american at all costs' agenda.  What can possibly go wrong.....
		
Click to expand...

Just saying i'd rather a close relationship with the usa than the eu.  I'm not judging personalities, but as an institiution I'd trust the usa more.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Always a space on the hessian rug in the yurt for like minded individuals......

Anyway, Stephen Hawking has said a Brexit is a bad thing.  And he's cleverer than all of us put together.  So that's sealed the deal for me.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35772714

Click to expand...

I have met some incredibly stupid people who have a lot of qualifications.   Many very intelligent  people tend to have little or no understanding of the commercial world and I suspect that most of these people have only ever lived in the La La land of academia.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I have met some incredibly stupid people who have a lot of qualifications.   Very clever people tend to have little or no understanding of the commercial world and I suspect that most of these people have only ever lived in the La La land of academia.
		
Click to expand...

Well that sounds like his views on this EU thing can be dismissed as not being worth a grain of sand...

Maybe we should ask the Governor of the BoE - ah we have - but we didn't like that either.

Only time before the Bishops throw in their tuppence worth - hmmm - they are usually dismissed anyway as not having views of any great relevance to anything - and shouldn't get involved in earthly serious matters as such things are none of their business.

I'm rather wondering who we should trust and take heed of - BoZo?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that sounds like his views on this EU thing can be dismissed as not being worth a grain of sand...

Maybe we should ask the Governor of the BoE - ah we have - but we didn't like that either.

Only time before the Bishops throw in their tuppence worth - hmmm - they are usually dismissed anyway as not having views of any great relevance to anything - and shouldn't get involved in earthly serious matters as such things are none of their business.

I'm rather wondering who we should trust and take heed of - BoZo?
		
Click to expand...

I think you rather ruined your point by suggesting that we should care what the Bishops say on the matter. Fair enough with Stephen Hawking and the governor of the BoE they might have a bit of an idea. But why should we listen to a bunch of men that wear dresses and talk to their imaginary friend that lives in the sky? Why should their view be any more important than crazy Bob from Norwich that walks around the city in a dress and talks to his imaginary friend?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that sounds like his views on this EU thing can be dismissed as not being worth a grain of sand...

Maybe we should ask the Governor of the BoE - ah we have - but we didn't like that either.

Only time before the Bishops throw in their tuppence worth - hmmm - they are usually dismissed anyway as not having views of any great relevance to anything - and shouldn't get involved in earthly serious matters as such things are none of their business.

I'm rather wondering who we should trust and take heed of - BoZo?
		
Click to expand...

I wont be asking any business advice of Stephen Hawkins thank you.   The Bishops fall very much into this category as well, Vicars are renowned to get into the cloth as no one else really wants them.  

Regarding  Mark Carney, maybe his predecessors are better qualified to comment on his opinions in this matter.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think you rather ruined your point by suggesting that we should care what the Bishops say on the matter. Fair enough with Stephen Hawking and the governor of the BoE they might have a bit of an idea. But why should we listen to a bunch of men that wear dresses and talk to their imaginary friend that lives in the sky? Why should their view be any more important than crazy Bob from Norwich that walks around the city in a dress and talks to his imaginary friend?
		
Click to expand...

:whoo:


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Mar 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC;1472861 Why should their view be any more important than crazy Bob from Norwich that walks around the city in a dress and talks to his imaginary friend?[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Oi Leave Crazy Bob out of this  

Click to expand...


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I wont be asking any business advice of Stephen Hawkins thank you.   The Bishops fall very much into this category as well, Vicars are renowned to get into the cloth as no one else really wants them.  

Regarding  Mark Carney, maybe his predecessors are better qualified to comment on his opinions in this matter.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, who would you listen to?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Out of interest, who would you listen to?
		
Click to expand...

Crazy Bob from Norwich. He knows loads about everything, but make sure you don't listen to his imaginary friend. That guy knows nothing.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I have met some incredibly stupid people who have a lot of qualifications.   Many very intelligent  people tend to have little or no understanding of the commercial world and I suspect that most of these people have only ever lived in the La La land of academia.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I wont be asking any business advice of Stephen Hawkins thank you.   The Bishops fall very much into this category as well, Vicars are renowned to get into the cloth as no one else really wants them.  

Regarding  Mark Carney, maybe his predecessors are better qualified to comment on his opinions in this matter.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't financial or business advice Hawking was offering, that comes from Mark Carney.  He was talking about funding into research for science in a letter signed by 150 fellows of the Royal Society if you bothered to read the article.  By all mean dismiss their views as irrelevant to the debate or that science funding is not an issue for many people.  

But to just dismiss it as views of people who could be 'incredibly stupid' from 'la la land' of academia kind of shows up more about the no campaign than you think. Stephen Hawking may be many things, but I'm pretty sure incredibly stupid is not one of them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It wasn't financial or business advice Hawking was offering, that comes from Mark Carney.  He was talking about funding into research for science in a letter signed by 150 fellows of the Royal Society if you bothered to read the article.  By all mean dismiss their views as irrelevant to the debate or that science funding is not an issue for many people.  

But to just dismiss it as views of people who could be 'incredibly stupid' from 'la la land' of academia kind of shows up more about the no campaign than you think. Stephen Hawking may be many things, but I'm pretty sure incredibly stupid is not one of them.
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion he is not qualified to decide if the UK would be better in or out of the EU.   He may have an opinion on funding for research projects but is not in a position to understand whether we would be better off overall.  To suggest that we would not have funding for research or be able to collaborate with other centres in Europe is also an exaggeration.   Where does he think the money comes from to fund R&D, it doesn't grow on a money tree in Bruxelles or Strasbourg.    I have employed some very intelligent mathematicians who were capable of some brilliant development work but I would never have put them in front of a customer.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Out of interest, who would you listen to?
		
Click to expand...

People with proven business accruement and a those that have faith that this country is more than capable of managing it's own destiny.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			People with proven business accruement and a those that have faith that this country is more than capable of managing it's own destiny.
		
Click to expand...

Or even 'acumen'! 

Though there's certainly a place for those who accrue businesses too! 

I don't believe there are many, if any, in the 'stay in' camp who do not believe that 'this country is more than capable of managing it's own destiny'. But they probably believe that, on balance, the UK will be better off within the EU than outside of it!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Or *even 'acumen'!* 

Though there's certainly a place for those who accrue businesses too! 

I don't believe there are many, if any, in the 'stay in' camp who do not believe that 'this country is more than capable of managing it's own destiny'. But they probably believe that, on balance, the UK will be better off within the EU than outside of it!
		
Click to expand...

Cheap shot.  Make you feel good?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think you rather ruined your point by suggesting that we should care what the Bishops say on the matter. Fair enough with Stephen Hawking and the governor of the BoE they might have a bit of an idea. But why should we listen to a bunch of men that wear dresses and talk to their imaginary friend that lives in the sky? Why should their view be any more important than crazy Bob from Norwich that walks around the city in a dress and talks to his imaginary friend?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I did suggest we should listen to the Bishops - that's certainly not what I've written.  In fact I've written that we generally don't bother - and in gfact usually tell them to 'zip it' - so why would we bother listening to them on this.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It wasn't financial or business advice Hawking was offering, that comes from Mark Carney.  He was talking about funding into research for science in a letter signed by 150 fellows of the Royal Society if you bothered to read the article.  By all mean dismiss their views as irrelevant to the debate or that science funding is not an issue for many people.  

But to just dismiss it as views of people who could be 'incredibly stupid' from 'la la land' of academia kind of shows up more about the no campaign than you think. Stephen Hawking may be many things, but I'm pretty sure incredibly stupid is not one of them.
		
Click to expand...

And I'll give that a :whoo:


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			People with proven business accruement and a *those that have faith that this country is more than capable of managing it's own destiny*.
		
Click to expand...

You mean those whose opinion you already know you agree with. So you are more into confirmation bias than acquiring independent opinions.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You mean those whose opinion you already know you agree with. So you are more into confirmation bias than acquiring independent opinions.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I suppose I do listen to anyone but I have not been convinced by anyone who thinks we are better off staying.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You mean those whose opinion you already know you agree with. So you are more into confirmation bias than acquiring independent opinions.
		
Click to expand...

Which also equates to the remain group, so those on this forum in general, know exactly which way they are going to vote.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Which also equates to the remain group, so those on this forum in general, know exactly which way they are going to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Have you any examples of remain supporters in the forum saying they choose only to read info from people with good arguments for staying in?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Really? Have you any examples of remain supporters in the forum saying they choose only to read info from people with good arguments for staying in?
		
Click to expand...

So it is with me - I'm looking for 150 scientists plus a Hawkins equivalent telling me that UK science and engineering research would be able to do just as well as it does - if not better - out of the EU.  And that the current Â£1.5Bn+ gap between what UK puts into the EU S&T budget and what it gets out would not be an issue because the UK government would of course fund to the current level.

_Of (what UK puts into EU budget) , 5.4bn was specified to go to the EU's R&D programme
But in return, 8.8bn euros came back to the UK for R&D
In 2007-2013, funding from EU sources more than doubled
In this period, UK research council spending increased by 7%
Source: ONS, CASE_

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35668682


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			In my opinion he is not qualified to decide if the UK would be better in or out of the EU.   He may have an opinion on funding for research projects but is not in a position to understand whether we would be better off overall.  To suggest that we would not have funding for research or be able to collaborate with other centres in Europe is also an exaggeration.   Where does he think the money comes from to fund R&D, it doesn't grow on a money tree in Bruxelles or Strasbourg.    *I have employed some very intelligent mathematicians who were capable of some brilliant development work but I would never have put them in front of a customer*.
		
Click to expand...

So because some academics do not have very developed social skills then that means any comment from people in universities are not valid?

And to just dismiss his opinion because he does not (in your opinion) have a full grasp on the total picture is again sounding very like you are desperate to dismiss it because it does not agree with your view.  His thing is research funding into science, your thing is immigration. You may think the influx of immigrants will ruin this country in the future, he may well think a lack of research into science will ruin this country in the future. Neither of you have a full grasp on all the issues, no one does. 

Well actually maybe you think you do, as you seem to saying his conclusion is exaggerated and are arguing with Stephen Hawking's conclusions on science funding.  The Stephen Hawking who is the director of science funding at Cambridge university, arguably the best university in the world.  Arguing with a man widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest thinkers of our time.  

Still, bet his customer focus skills are rubbish and he's no George Galloway.....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So because some academics do not have very developed social skills then that means any comment from people in universities are not valid?

And to just dismiss his opinion because he does not (in your opinion) have a full grasp on the total picture is again sounding very like you are desperate to dismiss it because it does not agree with your view.  His thing is research funding into science, your thing is immigration. You may think the influx of immigrants will ruin this country in the future, he may well think a lack of research into science will ruin this country in the future. Neither of you have a full grasp on all the issues, no one does. 

Well actually maybe you think you do, as you seem to saying his conclusion is exaggerated and are arguing with Stephen Hawking's conclusions on science funding.  The Stephen Hawking who is the director of science funding at Cambridge university, arguably the best university in the world.  Arguing with a man widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest thinkers of our time.  

Still, bet his customer focus skills are rubbish and he's no George Galloway..... 

Click to expand...

...and he doesn't wear a fedora with quite such eclat as Gorgeous George


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

In referenda like this, Scotland also, and even when a political change of direction occurs with Trump or Corbyn (covering all political bases), the movement for change or out is often more driven and convinced by their cause. The group in favour of the status quo (or something close) are often less ideological and simply concerned about whether there is a need for change and what unseen adverse consequences might come along. If you like, one side says 'Well, it couldn't be worse ..' and the other side say 'It could be a lot worse, actually'.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 11, 2016)

Can we, pretty please, leave the arsewipe that is George Galloway out of the thread...

Yesterdays tosser that is jumping on the bandwagon hoping someone will remember who he is...


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Yesterdays tosser that is jumping on the bandwagon hoping someone will remember who he is...
		
Click to expand...

Yep like Blair trying to railroad the remain campaign. Each side seems to have its fair share of wasters.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 11, 2016)

A group of scientists, no matter how brilliant they are, would convince me it's best to remain in the eu. I really have no interest in scientific funding. Stephen Hawking was just stating what is important for himself and the scientific community. They have no bearing on what is important to me. 
The same with anyone from the financial sector. Why would I take advice from anyone from an industry which had a major impact on the global crash, who's companies were going bankrupt and needed rescuing by the UK taxpayer?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			A group of scientists, no matter how brilliant they are, would convince me it's best to remain in the eu. I really have no interest in scientific funding. Stephen Hawking was just stating what is important for himself and the scientific community. They have no bearing on what is important to me. 
The same with anyone from the financial sector. Why would I take advice from anyone from an industry which had a major impact on the global crash, who's companies were going bankrupt and needed rescuing by the UK taxpayer?
		
Click to expand...

Same question then. Who would you listen to?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Yep like Blair trying to railroad the remain campaign. Each side seems to have its fair share of wasters.
		
Click to expand...

Did you actually listen to what Blair said in his interview with Nick Robinson on Today this morning.  Blair talked about the need for passion from the _Remain_ side - @Ethan posted about 'passion' earlier - and Blair certainly exuded passion in the interview, and when asked if he would take an active part in the debate, finished by saying that he appreciated him doing so would have negatives as well as positives.  At no point did I get the feeling that he was attempting to 'railroad' (by which I assume you mean 'coerce') the _Remain_ campaign.  

As it happens I think that Blair was an excellent PM - albeit one very severely damaged and forever tarnished by Iraq - and someone who - if we could put our prejudices against him aside and just listen - could make a significant and knowledgeable contribution to the debate.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			A group of scientists, no matter how brilliant they are, would convince me it's best to remain in the eu. I really have no interest in scientific funding. Stephen Hawking was just stating what is important for himself and the scientific community. They have no bearing on what is important to me. 
The same with anyone from the financial sector. Why would I take advice from anyone from an industry which had a major impact on the global crash, who's companies were going bankrupt and needed rescuing by the UK taxpayer?
		
Click to expand...

Probably glad for the influence scientists have had on your life though.

Important for our scientific community to be as effective as possible and they obviously believe EU membership benefits that - and the country as a whole.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			A group of scientists, no matter how brilliant they are, would convince me it's best to remain in the eu.* I really have no interest in scientific funding. *Stephen Hawking was just stating what is important for himself and the scientific community. They have no bearing on what is important to me. 
The same with anyone from the financial sector. Why would I take advice from anyone from an industry which had a major impact on the global crash, who's companies were going bankrupt and needed rescuing by the UK taxpayer?
		
Click to expand...

Well that's alright then - as you have no interest in it, it doesn't matter.  Oh well.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Cheap shot.  Make you feel good?
		
Click to expand...

Would have been better if my paragraph stating what Ethan posted (that you therefore only listen to those of the same opinion as yourself) hadn't, through my rush, gone missing! 

As for the actual funding, I'm seriously surprised - and then maybe not - at the amount of funding/grants returned by EU as for scientific development. To me, this demonstrates something that is an advantage of the way EU membership can improve/generate developments better than acting individually - and, in this case, is of significant to UK . It is fairly widely recognised that having high  numbers of scientific developers/researchers (and pure theoreticians) concentrated together actually magnifies development that might be expected if they were scattered. The world, as well as UK, would be 'the poorer' if this level of funding was lost. 

On the other hand, that level of funding coming in must mean that there's, effectively, even more of a difference between what UK puts into the EU and what it receives!


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Same question then. Who would you listen to?
		
Click to expand...

Personally, I'd listen to anyone from either camp who argued intelligently. Dismissing anyone out of hand will only lead to an unbalanced opinion/judgement.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			A group of scientists, no matter how brilliant they are, would convince me it's best to remain in the eu. I really have no interest in scientific funding. Stephen Hawking was just stating what is important for himself and the scientific community. They have no bearing on what is important to me. 
The same with anyone from the financial sector. Why would I take advice from anyone from an industry which had a major impact on the global crash, who's companies were going bankrupt and needed rescuing by the UK taxpayer?
		
Click to expand...

So you don't want new medicines, diagnostic technology, better tech, better protection against hacking and phishing, faster and safer cars, planes and trains etc etc et-bloody-cetera?

Those who think the EU is just about trading and laws really don't have a clue and are not competent to cast an informed vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So because some academics do not have very developed social skills then that means any comment from people in universities are not valid?

And to just dismiss his opinion because he does not (in your opinion) have a full grasp on the total picture is again sounding very like you are desperate to dismiss it because it does not agree with your view.  His thing is research funding into science, your thing is immigration. You may think the influx of immigrants will ruin this country in the future, he may well think a lack of research into science will ruin this country in the future. Neither of you have a full grasp on all the issues, no one does. 

Well actually maybe you think you do, as you seem to saying his conclusion is exaggerated and are arguing with Stephen Hawking's conclusions on science funding.  The Stephen Hawking who is the director of science funding at Cambridge university, arguably the best university in the world.  Arguing with a man widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest thinkers of our time.  

Still, bet his customer focus skills are rubbish and he's no George Galloway..... 

Click to expand...

My point is that in my opinion we would still work on international research projects if we were not in the EU.   We worked on projects with China, India, the USA, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Australia, Japan and many more but the EU was not an influencing factor.  Remember again that funding for projects comes from tax payers money not an EU federal treasure chest.   Stephen Hawkins is a great thinker but he is not a great business mind, his expertise is mainly academic.  I am not trying to take away anything from his achievements but rather suggesting it's not correct to suggest leaving the EU will set back our R@D   research.

Also, my interest in this debate is not only about immigration.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you don't want new medicines, diagnostic technology, better tech, better protection against hacking and phishing, faster and safer cars, planes and trains etc etc et-bloody-cetera?

Those who think the EU is just about trading and laws really don't have a clue and are not competent to cast an informed vote.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting R@D in this country is mainly or only funded from the EU, or if we left the EU research collaboration would end?

Your last paragraph is unbelievably  elitist.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you don't want new medicines, diagnostic technology, better tech, better protection against hacking and phishing, faster and safer cars, planes and trains etc etc et-bloody-cetera?

Those who think the EU is just about trading and laws really don't have a clue and are not competent to cast an informed vote.
		
Click to expand...

You think all that is reliant on remaining in the eu? What a blinkered view.
Unlike you, I believe everybody is entitled to an equal vote, not just the stay lobby. I could insult you, but prefer not to lower myself to your level. 
That seems to be the 'stay' way though, just try to belittle the 'leave' side.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 11, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Same question then. Who would you listen to?
		
Click to expand...

Anyone who could give concise and cogent arguments. So far I here more of that from the 'leave' side.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Anyone who could give concise and cogent arguments. So far I here more of that from the 'leave' side.
		
Click to expand...

What is it about the messages from scientists and financial experts isn't concise and cogent?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What is it about the messages from scientists and financial experts isn't concise and cogent?
		
Click to expand...

...and those from the environmentalists and conservationists.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 11, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What is it about the messages from scientists and financial experts isn't concise and cogent?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing. All makes perfect sense to them, but of little relevance to myself and my family. Again, why would I agree with the financial experts after the hash they have made of their own industry?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Nothing. All makes perfect sense to them, but of little relevance to myself and my family. Again, why would I agree with the financial experts after the hash they have made of their own industry?
		
Click to expand...

So science and technology, and finance have little relevance to you. What about the environment and conservation - do they have any relevance to you and your family.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting R@D in this country is mainly or only funded from the EU, or if we left the EU research collaboration would end?

Your last paragraph is unbelievably  elitist.
		
Click to expand...

I am saying that research is much better in this country because of EU involvement. I work in medicines development, and I know that British influence in the EMA (based in Canary Wharf) is important, and provides better medicines for the UK, as well as a great deal of work, trade and stimulation of the economy. That is just one example. If we have a Brexit, the EMA are moving, probably to Copenhagen. 

But the last sentence is not elitist. It is a response to those who ignore that which they don't understand. I don't know crap about the origins of the universe, but if Stephen Hawking says something about it and that EU membership helps British scientists to take part in EU funded projects to study it (for example) then I trust that he knows what he is talking about. That is not elitism.

Anyone who dismisses his opinion because they don't understand it, or the relevance of it, is much worse than elitist. What is your preferred word for such a person?


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You think all that is reliant on remaining in the eu? What a blinkered view.
Unlike you, I believe everybody is entitled to an equal vote, not just the stay lobby. I could insult you, but prefer not to lower myself to your level. 
That seems to be the 'stay' way though, just try to belittle the 'leave' side.
		
Click to expand...

Some of that IS reliant on staying in the EU, actually. The EU has a lot more leverage and medicines marketed in the EU are developed within the EU, approved by the EU and priced by the EU. Some of that would change, and I know for a fact that some American companies would relocate facilities from the UK. I work for such a firm who have Brexit plans in place. 

But it wouldn't insult me if you used a coherent argument rather than ad hominem and bluster. With facts and information and all that sort of stuff.

And where did I say that everyone was not entitled to an equal vote? I did say some people are too stupid to vote, but they are still allowed to.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is that in my opinion we would still work on international research projects if we were not in the EU.   We worked on projects with China, India, the USA, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Australia, Japan and many more but the EU was not an influencing factor.  Remember again that funding for projects comes from tax payers money not an EU federal treasure chest.   Stephen Hawkins is a great thinker but he is not a great business mind, his expertise is mainly academic.*  I am not trying to take away anything from his achievements but rather suggesting it's not correct to suggest leaving the EU will set back our R@D   research*.

Also, my interest in this debate is not only about immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Mmmn , a director of science research at Cambridge University or some bloke who doesn't think much has changed since the 60s yakking away on a golf forum.  

Who to believe on how a Brexit will impact on science research. 

Tough one......


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2016)

The world was square prior to 1975, we ate grass and waited for the wheel to be invented.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			The world was square prior to 1975, we ate grass and waited for the wheel to be invented.
		
Click to expand...

Speak for yourself.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you don't want new medicines, diagnostic technology, better tech, better protection against hacking and phishing, faster and safer cars, planes and trains etc etc et-bloody-cetera?Those who think the EU is just about trading and laws really don't have a clue and are not competent to cast an informed vote.
		
Click to expand...

But no one from the remain campaign has been able or prepared to explain why a lot of this would change if we left and for those of us unsure on how we will vote, to make an informed decision, this is the info we need. And the same from the leave campaign on claims that they might make. They need to stop screaming "scaremongering" at any claim that remain make and explain why whatever the claim is won't happen............. To use one example from your list above, it seems fairly obvious that the Germans aren't going to stop making and selling us safe cars any more than we are going to stop buying them if we were to leave. So, the remain campaign needs to explain why they would................. Another example is scientific research on things like medicines. If the remain campaign (or people with knowledge of the subject which supports the remain campaign) say that this will be affected by a vote to leave the EU then the leave campaign need to explain why it won't change or what will take its place if it does change.................. The whole debate so far has revolved around sound bites and unsubstantiated claims from both sides without too much flesh being put on the bones. I suspect that suits the remain campaign more in so far as people that are undecided are more likely to vote for the status quo so it is up to the leave campaign to start giving details to back up their claims and that will hopefully force the remain campaign to start doing the same.EDIT - the row of dots are where the paragraphs should be


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2016)

Apologies for the lack of paragraphs in the above post. For some reason my ridiculously slow, worse than dial up, internet connection is not recognising them and is posting as a continuous block of text despite me trying to edit it three times.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But no one from the remain campaign has been able or prepared to explain why a lot of this would change if we left and for those of us unsure on how we will vote, to make an informed decision, this is the info we need. And the same from the leave campaign on claims that they might make. They need to stop screaming "scaremongering" at any claim that remain make and explain why whatever the claim is won't happen............. To use one example from your list above, it seems fairly obvious that the Germans aren't going to stop making and selling us safe cars any more than we are going to stop buying them if we were to leave. So, the remain campaign needs to explain why they would................. Another example is scientific research on things like medicines. If the remain campaign (or people with knowledge of the subject which supports the remain campaign) say that this will be affected by a vote to leave the EU then the leave campaign need to explain why it won't change or what will take its place if it does change.................. The whole debate so far has revolved around sound bites and unsubstantiated claims from both sides without too much flesh being put on the bones. I suspect that suits the remain campaign more in so far as people that are undecided are more likely to vote for the status quo so it is up to the leave campaign to start giving details to back up their claims and that will hopefully force the remain campaign to start doing the same.EDIT - the row of dots are where the paragraphs should be
		
Click to expand...

Drug development (including clinical trials and approval) is run on an EU basis these days. As I said before, the European Medicines Agency is even located in London and gets a lot of good jobs and local economic activity associated with it. It will have to move after a Brexit.

EU Regulations govern the standards for clinical trials, and shortly a new system will make doing trials in EU countries much smoother. with a unified EU-level single approval system. The UK might be able to stick with some of those standards, but US companies regard the EU as an entity and everywhere else, Switz, Norway, the non EU eastern European countries, differently. Then when it comes to launching the medicine, it also works on a EU basis. Some of the incentives and patent coverage work on a EU basis. The UK is already seen as a difficult place to launch a medicine, and some companies have considered not launching in there UK. That risk would shift to not even seeking approval in the first place with the UK ex-EU. 

A lot of the US companies have quite a bit of their operation here. That has been slowly shifting to continental Europe recently, but that pace will quicken. Some established companies will move Euro HQs to the continent. Cheap medicines are allowed to be imported into the UK because of EU legislation. That may reduce. 

One of the problems is the law of unintended consequences. As much as people may try to predict what would happen (as I have), there will be stuff that happens which we didn't see coming, possibly due to some arcane obscure law or regulation that would change following Brexit. It is possible that may be a good thing, but also that it is a bad thing. Business doesn't like that kind of uncertainty.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 11, 2016)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-deporting-foreigners-for-hours-a6925781.html

Is this the sort of fine representative democracy you want more of in the UK?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Mmmn , a director of science research at Cambridge University or some bloke who doesn't think much has changed since the 60s yakking away on a golf forum.  

Who to believe on how a Brexit will impact on science research. 

Tough one......
		
Click to expand...

You are entitled to whatever opinion you have on the subject and I respect that fact.   However please don't paint that kind of picture of me, you don't even know me, do you?   Why do you suggest my thinking is stuck in the sixties?  I happen to disagree with Stephen Hawkins that research will be adversely affected by Brexit.  Is it incomprehensible that someone may disagree with him.

FYI, I have been the Chief Executive of a Company that Develops and sells complex design and manufacturing software Worldwide.   I have managed development projects with companies like Robert Bosch, Yamazaki Machinery, Mitsubishi, Charmilles Technologies, Agie and many more Worldwide.   I have a degree in Production Engineering a Diploma in Business Management and I am a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.   I do not talk as someone who just yaks away on a Golf Forum, although like us all here I do that as well.

You are of course entitled to disagree with my views and consider them as worthless if you wish but make your case by discussion of the subject rather than dismissing my views as stupid.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-deporting-foreigners-for-hours-a6925781.html

Is this the sort of fine representative democracy you want more of in the UK?
		
Click to expand...

Its so easy to Google Labour filibuster and see Labour doing exactly the same thing... so where is this democracy you speak of, coz it certainly isn't on the Labour benches either!


----------



## Del_Boy (Mar 12, 2016)

I am 42 years old so have pretty much lived with England in the EU.  Had a fairly decent life so far and can't see that changing to much in the future for either me or my family. You can argue the toss about whether that is because of my parents and me or the EU or both but to me the out campaign hasn't or can't tell me how my life will improve by us leaving the EU


----------



## Ethan (Mar 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its so easy to Google Labour filibuster and see Labour doing exactly the same thing... so where is this democracy you speak of, coz it certainly isn't on the Labour benches either!
		
Click to expand...

Glad you agree that the little Englanders who proclaim the fine democracy of Westminster are wrong.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are entitled to whatever opinion you have on the subject and I respect that fact.   However please don't paint that kind of picture of me, you don't even know me, do you?   Why do you suggest my thinking is stuck in the sixties?  I happen to disagree with Stephen Hawkins that research will be adversely affected by Brexit.  Is it incomprehensible that someone may disagree with him.

FYI, I have been the Chief Executive of a Company that Develops and sells complex design and manufacturing software Worldwide.   I have managed development projects with companies like Robert Bosch, Yamazaki Machinery, Mitsubishi, Charmilles Technologies, Agie and many more Worldwide.   I have a degree in Production Engineering a Diploma in Business Management and I am a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.   I do not talk as someone who just yaks away on a Golf Forum, although like us all here I do that as well.

You are of course entitled to disagree with my views and consider them as worthless if you wish but make your case by discussion of the subject rather than dismissing my views as stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, how about a truce, we ain't going to agree or change each others minds. 

And roll on the referendum so we can move on.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Glad you agree that the little Englanders who proclaim the fine democracy of Westminster are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Which brings us back to the central issue of who you want to be governed by. You're happy for it to be Brussels and I'm not.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Which brings us back to the central issue of who you want to be governed by. You're happy for it to be Brussels and I'm not.
		
Click to expand...

But you are not governed by Brussels. You are governed by Westminster. Some EU laws and regulations are ratified by Westminster, but only a small fraction of primary legislation.

A research paper published by the House of Commons in 2010 said that in the previous 20 years or so 6.8% of primary legislation and 14.1% of secondary legislation had a role in implementing EU regulations, although that role varied from passing reference to explicit implementation. This rate has fallen from the mid 90s. 

If you think that is being ruled from Brussels, you are deluding yourself. 

I am quite happy for some of the EU legislation on working hours, environmental protections and human and consumer rights.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ok, how about a truce, we ain't going to agree or change each others minds. 

And roll on the referendum so we can move on.
		
Click to expand...

That's fine with me .

Move on to the next issue then


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2016)

Ethan said:



			But you are not governed by Brussels. You are governed by Westminster. Some EU laws and regulations are ratified by Westminster, but only a small fraction of primary legislation.

A research paper published by the House of Commons in 2010 said that in the previous 20 years or so 6.8% of primary legislation and 14.1% of secondary legislation had a role in implementing EU regulations, although that role varied from passing reference to explicit implementation. This rate has fallen from the mid 90s. 

If you think that is being ruled from Brussels, you are deluding yourself. 

I am quite happy for some of the EU legislation on working hours, environmental protections and human and consumer rights.
		
Click to expand...

if you say so. I'm very aware of all the toing and froing our Civil Service and ministers do with Brussels when they're forming legislation. And if you think it's any different, you're deluding yourself.

But you crack on, you're never wrong coz your intelligent


----------



## Ethan (Mar 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			if you say so. I'm very aware of all the toing and froing our Civil Service and ministers do with Brussels when they're forming legislation. And if you think it's any different, you're deluding yourself.

But you crack on,* you're never wrong coz your intelligent*

Click to expand...

Well, better than proving the opposite. Your (sic) welcome. 

You might find your (correct use) answers and ideas get better if you use some actual information. Great intelligence not needed, GCSE level literacy would be quite sufficient.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Well, better than proving the opposite. Your (sic) welcome. 

You might find your (correct use) answers and ideas get better if you use some actual information. Great intelligence not needed, GCSE level literacy would be quite sufficient.
		
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha.... I guess A-level doesn't count then, nor the degree. And no, it isn't one of the fluffy ones. Surely you can do better than that when you want to put someone down?

anyway, enough of me. It's really all about you displaying your obvious intellect(ego) for us all to bow down before....

As for producing actual information, your biased posting of the Tory filibusting without the balanced example of the other parties doing the same goes a long way to indicating your attitude to reasoned debate.

The car scrappage scheme was purely a piece of UK legislation. Bis, what was the dept of trade and industry, spent a huge amount of time in Brussels ensuring that what they were putting together had the approval of Brussels.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 12, 2016)

This link to Wikipedia illustrates the problem with this referendum, as well as the Republican primaries in the US and the last general election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_information_voter

All of these campaigns have become a series of dog whistles, mostly from the right, who popularised this form of gutter politics. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

Trump says 'Make America Great Again' and he means 'Make America White Again'. The Sun goes on about laws being made by faceless Brussels bureaucrats (see posts above) and the Sun reader takes that at face value, even though a 9 year old could google it and find out it is false. But no matter, the modern political definition of a fact is a statement which if repeated enough sticks in the head of the voter. 

And the Tories win the election with a campaign that basically boiled down to 'Vote for us or we will be invaded by Bulgarians and Nicola Sturgeon', then use their mandate to destroy what remains of the NHS, the welfare state and pursue an ideological strategy to privatise as much as possible by telling the voters the national economy is a current account and we are overdrawn. 

And the uncritical low information voter can't even be bothered to check some of this stuff out. If someone does they are called 'intelligent' like that is an insult. The irony. 

People get the politicians they deserve, so it is perhaps unsurprising that the Tories who blow dog whistles more than anyone thanks to Lynton Crosby, do so well.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahaha.... I guess A-level doesn't count then, nor the degree. And no, it isn't one of the fluffy ones. Surely you can do better than that when you want to put someone down?

anyway, enough of me. It's really all about you displaying your obvious intellect(ego) for us all to bow down before....

As for producing actual information, your biased posting of the Tory filibusting without the balanced example of the other parties doing the same goes a long way to indicating your attitude to reasoned debate.

The car scrappage scheme was purely a piece of UK legislation. Bis, what was the dept of trade and industry, spent a huge amount of time in Brussels ensuring that what they were putting together had the approval of Brussels.
		
Click to expand...

Is that the best you can do? One piece of legislation from the UK and an anecdote about the DTI going to Brussels? That is really pathetic. 

I would check if it isn't too late to get a refund on those tuition fees. Sorry for pointing out your illiteracy. You can stop me doing so again by writing at GCSE level standard. My 8year old knows the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. 

Being willing to ask "Mmm, how many UK laws are actually made in Brussels?" has nothing to do with intellect or education. It has a lot to do with not being closed-minded, though. 

The bit about the Tory filibuster is because they are in power. When Labour is in power and does the same on an important bill, happy to point that out too.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Is that the best you can do? One piece of legislation from the UK and an anecdote about the DTI going to Brussels? That is really pathetic. 

*I would check if it isn't too late to get a refund on those tuition fees. Sorry for pointing out your illiteracy. You can stop me doing so again by writing at GCSE level standard. My 8year old knows the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. 
*
Being willing to ask "Mmm, how many UK laws are actually made in Brussels?" has nothing to do with intellect or education. It has a lot to do with not being closed-minded, though. 

The bit about the Tory filibuster is because they are in power. When Labour is in power and does the same on an important bill, happy to point that out too.
		
Click to expand...

I can see why you are not a GP,  you don't have much of a bedside manner do you?    Unbelievably bad attitude.

Its '8 year old'  by the way.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So science and technology, and finance have little relevance to you. What about the environment and conservation - do they have any relevance to you and your family.
		
Click to expand...

Not in respect of being a  reason for remaining in the eu.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Glad you agree that the little Englanders who proclaim the fine democracy of Westminster are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Why do so many of your post give the impression that you hate so much about living in the UK. You obviously thought it was a good enough country to come and live in.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Not in respect of being a  reason for remaining in the eu.
		
Click to expand...

So please tell me whose view will you consider if not that of scientists, engineers, financiers, bankers, conservationists, environmentalists or educationalists/universities - large well-informed groups of all of whom have expressed the value and importance to them and these sectors of being in the EU.  Yet you seem to be dismissing the views of these groups as having no relevance to you...please tell me that it's not immigration and nothing else - because that's what it's beginning to sound like.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So please tell me whose view will you consider if not that of scientists, engineers, financiers, bankers, conservationists, environmentalists or educationalists/universities - large well-informed groups of all of whom have expressed the value and importance to them and these sectors of being in the EU.  Yet you seem to be dismissing the views of these groups as having no relevance to you...please tell me that it's not immigration and nothing else - because that's what it's beginning to sound like.
		
Click to expand...

All those bodies and institutions also have people who have stated a preference for 'Leave'.    Why should immigration not be a major concern for people, have you not noticed what is going on in Europe and the UK and considered what welcoming arms for Turkey will do.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Why do so many of your post give the impression that you hate so much about living in the UK. You obviously thought it was a good enough country to come and live in.
		
Click to expand...

It's called biting the hand that feeds you.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Is that the best you can do? One piece of legislation from the UK and an anecdote about the DTI going to Brussels? That is really pathetic. 

I would check if it isn't too late to get a refund on those tuition fees. Sorry for pointing out your illiteracy. You can stop me doing so again by writing at GCSE level standard. My 8year old knows the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. 

Being willing to ask "Mmm, how many UK laws are actually made in Brussels?" has nothing to do with intellect or education. It has a lot to do with not being closed-minded, though. 

The bit about the Tory filibuster is because they are in power. When Labour is in power and does the same on an important bill, happy to point that out too.
		
Click to expand...

Please educate me, or ask your son for help. I can't see where in my post you quoted where I got your and you're wrong. Tuition fees? I was there when they, and the maint fees, where paid by the state.

as for not posting up enough examples, how tedious... Try the 2014 employment laws or the Post Office sell off. anecdotal; I guess getting it first hand means it counts for nothing.

As for my lack of education, or illiteracy, I guess I've  fooled a lot of people, apart from you of course, managing a multi-faceted, multi-million pound business very successfully.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2016)

I see that the leave campaign has received a boost this morning with Jeremy Clarkson announcing that we should vote to stay in the EU and create a United States of Europe. The man might be able to drive around corners quite fast, indulge in some mild racism and punch people over a cold dinner but I'm not sure why he thinks that makes him qualified to give an opinion on the EU.


----------



## drdel (Mar 13, 2016)

Interesting the Ms Sturgeon has started muttering about Scotland re-running their referendum !

So Scotland wants to be independent, Wales has it, to a degree. Yugoslavia  is now 5 small countries and the Czechs split up their nation. The USSR fell apart. 

The EU is a political experiment in ideology the economic logic or 'local' trade and cooperation between nations will continue because the multinational firms will still find it advantageous. The UK will not be isolated because businesses will have no reason to make it so.

The EU carries huge overheads that consume the wealth of the member states. The UK could invest this wasted money within the country thereby decreasing the imbalance in our trade surplus and the velocity of money inside the UK raising the tax take from VAT.

A large proportion of the 'research' budget that comes through the EU is wasted through the manner in which Universities are forced the partner with organisation is certain member states who largely only take the money and contribute next to nowt in the projects.  

UK Universities would do well to cut out a load of the rubbish subjects they teach and call research conduct and compete on a world stage along with the UK. At present the EU provides a soft touch and the system is bloated.

We have no need to fear Brexit and once we focus on the world market we will realise it offers a much better and certain future.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 13, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Why do so many of your post give the impression that you hate so much about living in the UK. You obviously thought it was a good enough country to come and live in.
		
Click to expand...

Don't hate it at all. Just don't have a fictional Daily Mail idea of how the politics works here. Or in Brussels. For your information, I was born in NI which is considered part of the U.K. So I didn't 'come here'. 

The U.K. has had much to be proud of, a fine NHS and free education amongst others. Much of that is being thrown away, particularly by the current Govt. I hate them.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Don't hate it at all. Just don't have a fictional Daily Mail idea of how the politics works here. Or in Brussels. For your information, I was born in NI which is considered part of the U.K. So I didn't 'come here'. The U.K. has had much to be proud of, a fine NHS and free education amongst others. Much of that is being thrown away, particularly by the current Govt. I hate them.
		
Click to expand...

I see that you have once again resorted to your usual lazy fall back insult position which is that anyone that disagrees with you is a Daily Mail reader. I assume that you have also learnt your debating skills from your 8 year old. What's next? "My dad's bigger than your dad"? And as for the free education point - remind us what colour of government it was that introduced tuition fees. But that wouldn't fit with your agenda of wanting to blame everything on anyone who's views are anywhere right of centre would it?


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see that you have once again resorted to your usual lazy fall back insult position which is that anyone that disagrees with you is a Daily Mail reader. I assume that you have also learnt your debating skills from your 8 year old. What's next? "My dad's bigger than your dad"? And as for the free education point - remind us what colour of government it was that introduced tuition fees. But that wouldn't fit with your agenda of wanting to blame everything on anyone who's views are anywhere right of centre would it?
		
Click to expand...

Careful! He's allowed to throw insults but if you respond he'll edit your response. Abuse of position?


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I was born in NI which is considered part of the U.K. So I didn't 'come here'.
		
Click to expand...

 Then I must apologise as I presumed that the flag meant you were from Ireland.  You give the impression that you hate anyone or anything that doesn't fit into your mind set.  I'm sure that's not true. You need to come up with a non addictive chill pill.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful! He's allowed to throw insults but if you respond he'll edit your response. Abuse of position?
		
Click to expand...

Surely he wouldn't resort to that, he is such a high principled man, he does however seem to get away with things that others might get bounced for.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So please tell me whose view will you consider if not that of scientists, engineers, financiers, bankers, conservationists, environmentalists or educationalists/universities - large well-informed groups of all of whom have expressed the value and importance to them and these sectors of being in the EU.  Yet you seem to be dismissing the views of these groups as having no relevance to you...please tell me that it's not immigration and nothing else - because that's what it's beginning to sound like.
		
Click to expand...


I've nothing against controlled immigration, i'm all for it but, the current system is a mess. The open door policy to the eu is detrimental to the Uk and our infrastructure is creaking at the seams.
But that would not be my main overriding reason for wanting out.  As the fifth largest economy in the the world the UK would be best served going it alone. We are more than capable of 
trading with the world without the influence of the eu holding us back. The European single market dos'nt exist, it's a fallacy. It's just 3 or 4 wealthy nations propping up the rest of the eu.
Sovereignty. No, it's not a dirty word and the Uk should have the power to govern itself without outside influence.
That's why I want to leave. You have opposing views and  you are entitled to them. We don't have to agree.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2016)

Jeremy Clarkson ehh, along with the EDF BNP UKIP, Bonkin Boris, Gove, The Queen, Grayson IDS, etc etc. 

Such a tough decision to make, I will have to think a bit harder.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jeremy Clarkson ehh, along with the EDF BNP UKIP, Bonkin Boris, Gove, The Queen, Grayson IDS, etc etc. 

Such a tough decision to make, I will have to think a bit harder.
		
Click to expand...


Clarkson has said that he thinks we should stay in the EU ? And in fact try to improve the links and fix the issues

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...reate-a-united-states-of-europe-a6928556.html


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2016)

Aye right:lol:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye right:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Is he lying then ?

Did you even read what he said ?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is he lying then ?
		
Click to expand...

What do you think?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What do you think?
		
Click to expand...

I believe he is stating his opinion - he wants UK to stay in the EU - why would you think any different so not sure why you would put him with those others you mentioned. 

Clarkson is on your side.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jeremy Clarkson ehh, along with the EDF BNP UKIP, Bonkin Boris, Gove, The Queen, Grayson IDS, etc etc. 

Such a tough decision to make, I will have to think a bit harder.
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of eminent business leaders backing an exit, it's easy to focus on the divisive characters.
A quick search brings up plenty of successful businessmen backing the exit.
Nigel Wilson , ceo of Legal & general.
John Foster, founder of Reebok.
John Caudwell, founder of Phones 4 u
Crispin Odey and Sir Michael Hintze, London Hedge funds. 
To name but a few.
I see Richard Branson is a bit of a poster boy (any google search for 'stay' brings up his name) for the campaign to stay in the eu.  Pity that did'nt stretch to actually staying in the UK. Preferring to Leave for sunnier climes.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 13, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Then I must apologise as I presumed that the flag meant you were from Ireland.  You give the impression that you hate anyone or anything that doesn't fit into your mind set.  I'm sure that's not true. You need to come up with a non addictive chill pill.
		
Click to expand...

I am from Ireland, the Northern part. I don't hate anyone that doesn't fit into my mindset, not at all. I know many such people as friends and work with many others, although no admitted Trump supporters amongst my US colleagues. 

Also, unlike some people here, my mindset is capable of learning and changing its mind and is not fixed.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I am from Ireland, the Northern part. I don't hate anyone that doesn't fit into my mindset, not at all.
		
Click to expand...

So you mean you are from Northeren Ireland although not proud enough to fly the country's flag.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Also, unlike some people here, my mindset is capable of learning and changing its mind and is not fixed.
		
Click to expand...

Your avatar seems to suggest otherwise.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So you mean you are from Northeren Ireland although not proud enough to fly the country's flag.
		
Click to expand...

A good deal amount of people in N Ireland believe that is their flag and not the N Irish flag


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A good deal amount of people in N Ireland believe that is their flag and not the N Irish flag
		
Click to expand...

But more prefer the real thing but moving on.

Could someone from the remain corner explain what the point of having two parliament buildings miles apart and spending millions of euros moving back and forth.


----------



## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2016)

Can someone explain why the EU headquarters remains in Brussels, at huge expense. It's the EU, it could be run from anywhere, mainly Poland, where it's cheaper. In 2020, it could be some flea pad in Turkey. Cheap as chips.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2016)

drdel said:



*Interesting the Ms Sturgeon has started muttering about Scotland re-running their referendum !
*
So Scotland wants to be independent, Wales has it, to a degree. Yugoslavia  is now 5 small countries and the Czechs split up their nation. The USSR fell apart. 

The EU is a political experiment in ideology the economic logic or 'local' trade and cooperation between nations will continue because the multinational firms will still find it advantageous. The UK will not be isolated because businesses will have no reason to make it so.

The EU carries huge overheads that consume the wealth of the member states. The UK could invest this wasted money within the country thereby decreasing the imbalance in our trade surplus and the velocity of money inside the UK raising the tax take from VAT.

A large proportion of the 'research' budget that comes through the EU is wasted through the manner in which Universities are forced the partner with organisation is certain member states who largely only take the money and contribute next to nowt in the projects.  

UK Universities would do well to cut out a load of the rubbish subjects they teach and call research conduct and compete on a world stage along with the UK. At present the EU provides a soft touch and the system is bloated.

We have no need to fear Brexit and once we focus on the world market we will realise it offers a much better and certain future.
		
Click to expand...

No she is not.  She is saying that the SNP must start remaking the case for independence.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Can someone explain why the EU headquarters remains in Brussels, at huge expense. It's the EU, it could be run from anywhere, mainly Poland, where it's cheaper. In 2020, it could be some flea pad in Turkey. Cheap as chips.
		
Click to expand...

Or Scunthorpe!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2016)

And so when President Obama visits in April he is going to suggest that actually - all things considered - his view is that for security and economic reasons it's best that Uk remains part of the EU.  And he is told to 'butt out' by BoZo.  

Is this not the leader of one of the main countries that a Brexitted UK will be forming new - as yet undefined - transatlantic economic relationships and agreements with.  Should BoZo and the Brexiteers therefore not be actively engaging in discussions with Pres Obama about the nature of the new agreements; and understanding issues and concerns the US might have in respect of these agreements; and indeed understanding where things would be straightforward and beneficial to the UK.

But no.  Bozo tells Obama to keep his nose out of our business.  Avoidance and deflection - BoZo's #1 tactic when feeling challenged.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2016)

Or possibly that we won't be dealing with Obama. We'll be dealing with Donald Trump  so no point setting things in motion with Obama.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so when President Obama visits in April he is going to suggest that actually - all things considered - his view is that for security and economic reasons it's best that Uk remains part of the EU.  And he is told to 'butt out' by BoZo.  

Is this not the leader of one of the main countries that a Brexitted UK will be forming new - as yet undefined - transatlantic economic relationships and agreements with.  Should BoZo and the Brexiteers therefore not be actively engaging in discussions with Pres Obama about the nature of the new agreements; and understanding issues and concerns the US might have in respect of these agreements; and indeed understanding where things would be straightforward and beneficial to the UK.

But no.  Bozo tells Obama to keep his nose out of our business.  Avoidance and deflection - BoZo's #1 tactic when feeling challenged.
		
Click to expand...

Boris is correct, Obama should Butt Out of UK business where the EU is concerned.  It suits the USA for the UK to be their puppet in the EU, for us to be their way of having insider influence.   We should be big enough to tell him that we are no ones bitch!    How hypocritical if he does that as the USA would never consider being part of a larger confederation.

How exactly do you expect those wanting the UK out of the EU (UKOUT)  to have all these future trade agreements specified at this time.     We have a formal Government policy, including the leader campaigning against UKOUT, as I suggested previously I cannot see why he had not already spent more time over this and discussed trade agreements so he could put a balanced view to the electorate that he has passed the decision over to, what kind of decision are people supposed to make when not given the alternative, well unless the alternative is that  everyone will lose their jobs, we will no longer have any trade, massive migrant camps will be built in Dover and the Pound will be worthless.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 14, 2016)

I would'nt bother SocketRocket. The stay brigade are quite happy for the eu to dictate to us, so why should they have any concerns about Obama sticking his oar in. Is there anyone they are not happy to bow down to?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I would'nt bother SocketRocket. The stay brigade are quite happy for the eu to dictate to us, so why should they have any concerns about Obama sticking his oar in. Is there anyone they are not happy to bow down to?
		
Click to expand...

Yes!

Nigel Farage and the editors of the Mail and Express.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I would'nt bother SocketRocket. The stay brigade are quite happy for the eu to dictate to us, so why should they have any concerns about Obama sticking his oar in. Is there anyone they are not happy to bow down to?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-of-massive-blond-haired-child-20160222106453


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I would'nt bother SocketRocket. The stay brigade are quite happy for the eu to dictate to us, so why should they have any concerns about Obama sticking his oar in. Is there anyone they are not happy to bow down to?
		
Click to expand...

Is Obama not simply saying that as the USA has good and long standing agreements in place with the EU, it would prefer to continue to make agreements with the EU as a whole in the future rather than have to make separate ones with the UK and the EU.  And he says this because he thinks that better deals are possible with one body rather than with separate ones.  He is not telling us what the UK should do - he is giving us his perspective on what the USA would prefer to do - should we not know that?  

Surely this is everything to do with the Brexit claim that as a separate country the UK be able to form trading agreements with the likes of the USA that will be more beneficial than those currently in place.  Obama says - USA would prefer to do deals that involve the UK - with the UK in the EU.  

However if you want UK out of the EU then you ignore what he says - simple - but lets hear the US perspective - after all are they not our most valuable trading partner outside of the EU?


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

This is a British matter, no one else's. We are quite capable of making up our minds without their input. Do you think the American public would take kindly to Cameron interfering in their affairs of state?  Tell them who he thinks they should align themselves to. Not on your life.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-of-massive-blond-haired-child-20160222106453

Click to expand...

I'd love Boris to become PM. Better than smarmy Cameron or Osbourne. At least he's his own man.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I'd love Boris to become PM. Better than smarmy Cameron or Osbourne. At least he's his own man.
		
Click to expand...

If you read much of BoJo's writings on Europe it is hard not to think that his current position is nothing more than political opportunism.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If you read much of BoJo's writings on Europe it is hard not to think that his current position is nothing more than political opportunism.
		
Click to expand...

Snake oil carpet bag salesman of the first order.
You can see how he did so well in London.

Carmichael complaining of MSM journalist being fed lies by the Oot camp.
The man has no shame.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-of-massive-blond-haired-child-20160222106453

Click to expand...

So what is that rather silly editorial (by someone who cant even put a name to it) got to do with anything?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			This is a British matter, no one else's. We are quite capable of making up our minds without their input. Do you think the American public would take kindly to Cameron interfering in their affairs of state?  Tell them who he thinks they should align themselves to. Not on your life.
		
Click to expand...

Brexiteers wish there to be future trade agreements struck with the United States.  We are told that we will be able to strike such agreements, and indeed they will be better than what we have in place at the moment through the EU.  But as that is all aspiration and based on nothing more than supposition - surely then it is a valuable starting point to hear the view of the United States on such future agreements.  That is not USA interfering - it is them giving a view on something we will be going to them for.

If the Obama was to say - yes sure - no problem - easy to strike up a cracking deal for the UK in two shakes of a lambs tail - then I am sure we'd be hearing a lot of it from BoZo and his chums.  And why not - it would indeed be very positive and a solid grounding for the sort of statements BoZo makes about trade agreements.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So what is that rather silly editorial (by someone who cant even put a name to it) got to do with anything?
		
Click to expand...

Someone clearly hasn't come across this satirical website before... Lighten up


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Someone clearly hasn't come across this satirical website before... Lighten up 

Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ys-in-so-they-can-keep-whining-20160219106386


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Brexiteers wish there to be future trade agreements struck with the United States.  We are told that we will be able to strike such agreements, and indeed they will be better than what we have in place at the moment through the EU.  But as that is all aspiration and based on nothing more than supposition - surely then it is a valuable starting point to hear the view of the United States on such future agreements.  That is not USA interfering - it is them giving a view on something we will be going to them for.

If the Obama was to say - yes sure - no problem - easy to strike up a cracking deal for the UK in two shakes of a lambs tail - then I am sure we'd be hearing a lot of it from BoZo and his chums.  And why not - it would indeed be very positive and a solid grounding for the sort of statements BoZo makes about trade agreements.
		
Click to expand...

Of course we will trade with the usa, no matter what. The UK has alot to offer and everyone will want to trade with us, why would'nt they? Obama IS interfering, coming over and speaking in favour of staying. Again, America would'nt entertain us interfering in their national campaigns. How about Cameron takes a trip and gives interviews on why Trump should'nt be president. He'd be given short shrift.
If he was coming to encourage us to leave the eu, it would'nt alter my view. Keep your nose out of our affairs.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Of course we will trade with the usa, no matter what. The UK has alot to offer and everyone will want to trade with us, why would'nt they? Obama IS interfering, coming over and speaking in favour of staying. Again, America would'nt entertain us interfering in their national campaigns. How about Cameron takes a trip and gives interviews on why Trump should'nt be president. He'd be given short shrift.
If he was coming to encourage us to leave the eu, it would'nt alter my view. Keep your nose out of our affairs.
		
Click to expand...

But he's not telling us what to do though.  He's giving a US perspective on the arrangements he thinks work best for the US and UK/EU.  Do you not want to hear that?  If the USofA had absolutely no business with the UK and the EU - well yes - it would be none of their business.  But the trading arrangements that they'll be asked to negotiate with the UK are absolutely their business and so we should listen to what they say on these matters.

Besides - I don't get why Brexiteers have got annoyed by this - surely *anything *that informs the debate is worth listening to.  We listen - we accept or we ignore - but first we listen.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Besides - I don't get why Brexiteers have got annoyed by this - surely *anything *that informs the debate is worth listening to.  We listen - we accept or we ignore - but first we listen.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not interested what Obama thinks will happen if we leave. Why dos'nt Cameron let it be known what his strategy is if we vote out. I know he backs the status quo, but it's possible it may not go his way, so what will he do? That's what interests me. How is he going to go about extricating ourselves from the eu?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



*I'm not interested what Obama thinks will happen if we leave*. Why dos'nt Cameron let it be known what his strategy is if we vote out. I know he backs the status quo, but it's possible it may not go his way, so what will he do? That's what interests me. How is he going to go about extricating ourselves from the eu?
		
Click to expand...

Well you should be if you expect us to maintain a healthy trading relationship with one of the major economies in the world.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Besides - I don't get why Brexiteers have got annoyed by this - surely *anything *that informs the debate is worth listening to.  We listen - we accept or we ignore - but first we listen.
		
Click to expand...

He didn't inform the debate, he just said he would prefer if we stay in. No mention of what would happen if we left.What would happen if Russian or Chinese leaders stood up and said they wished we would leave the EU as it would be easier to trade with the U.K.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well you should be if you expect us to maintain a healthy trading relationship with one of the major economies in the world.
		
Click to expand...

Why? There's no reason our trade with the US and the rest won't flourish outside of the eu. If they want our goods and services (which they will) it dos'nt matter what Obama thinks.


----------



## ger147 (Mar 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well you should be if you expect us to maintain a healthy trading relationship with one of the major economies in the world.
		
Click to expand...

Really don't want to get into the middle of all of this, but Obama is currently on his farewell tour and both houses in the US are under Republican control, so while the office of US President would be key to what would happen if we did vote to leave, Obama is irrelevant at this stage IMO as he'll be gone very soon.

It would be more relevant to have discussions with leading members of the parties in Washington and probably Hilary as the current front runner for the next POTUS.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Why? There's no reason our trade with the US and the rest won't flourish outside of the eu. If they want our goods and services (which they will) it dos'nt matter what Obama thinks.
		
Click to expand...

Well if Trump gets in with his make America great rhetoric then they won't be begging to trade with us.  Not sure if you are aware how difficult it currently is to get stuff sold in the US if it was not manufactured there. If any republican gets in it will get a hell of a lot harder and I can't help thinking being inside a massive trade bloc with huge clout like the EU will help us more than trying out on our own.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well if Trump gets in with his make America great rhetoric then they won't be begging to trade with us.  Not sure if you are aware how difficult it currently is to get stuff sold in the US if it was not manufactured there. If any republican gets in it will get a hell of a lot harder and I can't help thinking being inside a massive trade bloc with huge clout like the EU will help us more than trying out on our own.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.
		
Click to expand...

You are right - of course - we are GREAT Britain - not tiddly Britain.  Being GREAT makes us great to do trade with - well it would wouldn't it.  You know I plum forgot how being Great Britain makes all the difference.  As you say - how could I be so silly to overlook this greatness that makes us so irresistible - so irresistible that the world will come rushing to Boris's door seeking trade deals even as we ignore what they say today.  Because they out there just can't do without us.


----------



## MarkE (Mar 15, 2016)

The lack of faith people have in our own country is unbelievable.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Someone clearly hasn't come across this satirical website before... Lighten up 

Click to expand...

Thats correct, it's not something I have wasted time on.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.
		
Click to expand...

Silly logic?

My wife once bought a birthday card for our grandson which said.......to a great grandson.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 16, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.
		
Click to expand...

Great just means big. Greek and later Roman travellers referred to what is now the UK and Ireland using various words which eventually became Britain. 

Great Britain referred to England, Scotland and Wales and Little Britain referred to Ireland. Nothing to do with whether it was a wonderful place or not.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2016)

Guys, CH was being ironic.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Guys, CH was being ironic.
		
Click to expand...

That was better than fishing however there is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and its ability, unlike some.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Great just means big. Greek and later Roman travellers referred to what is now the UK and Ireland using various words which eventually became Britain. 

Great Britain referred to England, Scotland and Wales and Little Britain referred to Ireland. Nothing to do with whether it was a wonderful place or not.
		
Click to expand...

I believe Lesser (Little) Britannia was Brittany in France.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			That was better than fishing however there is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and its ability, unlike some.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.  But there is a danger of confusing having a pride in your country with an over inflated opinion of its importance in the new global economy. You can have faith in your own country and also want to stay in the EU, the two positions are not exclusive. 

 I have no doubt we can govern ourselves and also we have some services that other countries will want to buy from us. However I also believe that in order to maximise the trade we do for the good of the country we need to be in the largest trading bloc in the world.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats correct, it's not something I have wasted time on.
		
Click to expand...

You should try it.  You seem to post a bit on here so obviously have some spare time you use by going on the internet. Go on, give it a try, trust me, it is a lot funnier than this place..


----------



## Ethan (Mar 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe Lesser (Little) Britannia was Brittany in France.
		
Click to expand...

That was how the usage evolved by the 12th century, but previously Ptolemy and others used the terms to refer to Britain and Ireland. In Ptolemy's time, the British Celts had not yet taken modern Brittany. 

Either way, 'Great' means 'big'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The lack of faith people have in our own country is unbelievable.
		
Click to expand...

Not so much lack of faith per se - rather it is my feeling and recognition that with globalisation and hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise, it is not sensible to try and do this by ourselves.  We have the trading relationships we have today because we have been on the EU for all of the period that true globalisation as we see it today has come about (since early-mid 1970s).   And it has taken a long time for these relationships and networks to build up and mature.  

Out of the EU (however long that might take) will find us starting from scratch as a major economy trying to form agreements across the globe in the face of a multitude of existing agreements.  We as the UK will be looking for terms favourable to the UK that might well be in conflict with agreements held with and by others - and all I can see from that is that we would be forced to accept terms aligned with those of existing nations or groupings.  That the UK would go into negotiations expecting and then achieving agreements more favourable than that which the EU has agreed is fanciful and ambitious (nothing wrong with ambition - but has to be framed in realism)


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 16, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Guys, CH was being ironic.
		
Click to expand...


Ta for that HK! Thought it fairly obvious, but I guess a failed attempt at humour. Just my outburst after seeing numerous people (on fb mainly) try and equate the "Great" part of GB with the ability to operate outside the EU. We're a much smaller and less important country now than we have been for centuries, and I really don't wish us to deplete that even further. 

And given I work in finance, I don't fancy Frankfurt taking some of my work!


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And given I work in finance, I don't fancy Frankfurt taking some of my work!
		
Click to expand...

I'm not allowed to get into finance and don't pretend to understand it, I just get pocket money.

I thought most of the major financial institutions apart from the UK ones are outside of the U.K. (You may be able to tell me different) so how will being outside of the EU have an effect on our major financial institutions.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Ta for that HK! Thought it fairly obvious, but I guess a failed attempt at humour. Just my outburst after seeing numerous people (on fb mainly) try and equate the "Great" part of GB with the ability to operate outside the EU. *We're a much smaller* *country* *now than we have been for centuries*, and I really don't wish us to deplete that even further.
		
Click to expand...

That'll be coastal erosion for you.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not so much lack of faith per se - rather it is my feeling and recognition that with globalisation and hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise, it is not sensible to try and do this by ourselves.  We have the trading relationships we have today because we have been on the EU for all of the period that true globalisation as we see it today has come about (since early-mid 1970s).   And it has taken a long time for these relationships and networks to build up and mature. 


Out of the EU (however long that might take) will find us starting from scratch as a major economy trying to form agreements across the globe in the face of a multitude of existing agreements.  We as the UK will be looking for terms favourable to the UK that might well be in conflict with agreements held with and by others - and all I can see from that is that we would be forced to accept terms aligned with those of existing nations or groupings.  That the UK would go into negotiations expecting and then achieving agreements more favourable than that which the EU has agreed is fanciful and ambitious (nothing wrong with ambition - but has to be framed in realism)
		
Click to expand...

You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU.   The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, actually I think we started it.    I am not sure what you are talking about when you mention "hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise"  but it sounds very impressive.   Trading with other countries is quite straight forward, you try to sell them goods and services and you purchase theirs is you have to.  The UK has been a bit of a dream trading partner as we tend to purchase more than we sell to most people, it may be a good shot in the arm for us to experience some trade barriers as we should be encouraging more organic growth which would also create more employment.   I don't think it would be in many countries interests to restrict trade with the UK.   I find the challenge of standing on our own two feet with more control of our destiny quite exciting and a great challenge that will bring out the best in us.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			That'll be coastal erosion for you. 

Click to expand...

......


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU.   *The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, *actually I think we started it.    I am not sure what you are talking about when you mention "hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise"  but it sounds very impressive.   Trading with other countries is quite straight forward, you try to sell them goods and services and you purchase theirs is you have to.  The UK has been a bit of a dream trading partner as we tend to purchase more than we sell to most people, it may be a good shot in the arm for us to experience some trade barriers as we should be encouraging more organic growth which would also create more employment.   I don't think it would be in many countries interests to restrict trade with the UK.   I find the challenge of standing on our own two feet with more control of our destiny quite exciting and a great challenge that will bring out the best in us.
		
Click to expand...

Except back then we didn't have the internet and the development and industrialisation we have seen in the second half of the 20th Century of many countries that back then were only just on the map.  I do think you probably do understand what modern globalisation is and why it has come about since the huge advances in computing in the mid-1970s; the advent of PCs in the early 80s, and subsequently the internet and explosion in telecommunications.   It's all rather a different economic and trading world than that before the UK joined the EEC and in which you say we were so successful and feel we can return to; and the UK has been in the EEC/EU for all of that time as our current trading relationships have been developed and have matured, and Brexiteers say we can just rip up all of that and start again.  Use our influence - our bargaining power as a 'must have' trading partner - that's be the influence and trading power we have developed as part of the EEC/EU - not I suggest anything we can absolutely put down to our own efforts.  

But hey.  When you are in an eight and you think your seven teammates aren't doing as much as they could - even though together you are all pulling together in the same direction and doing not too bad - but you think you really are rather better than them  - then the thing to do is to jump out of the boat, swim ashore and start looking to make a two or find partners for a four - and maybe in time an eight.  

Meanwhile your ex-team mates are miles downstream and you'll never catch them - your only hope being that they sink.  Which they might of course - but that wouldn't be good for anyone - after all they are still your buddies that you'd want to share a beer with.

So let's jump out the middle of the boat into turbulent water - always a good idea.


----------



## Leftie (Mar 17, 2016)

There again, with 4 pulling one side and 3 the other, they could easily capsize or just go round in circles

:mmm:


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU.   The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, actually I think we started it....
		
Click to expand...

H'mm.... I think the Portuguese might have been there somewhat earlier - like 75 years!! And the Spanish! And the French were even about the same time as the English; Dutch apparently a little later! But the spirit if Private(er) enterprise that is the English way won through, and history is generally chronicled by the victors!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except back then we didn't have the internet and the development and industrialisation we have seen in the second half of the 20th Century of many countries that back then were only just on the map.  I do think you probably do understand what modern globalisation is and why it has come about since the huge advances in computing in the mid-1970s; the advent of PCs in the early 80s, and subsequently the internet and explosion in telecommunications.   It's all rather a different economic and trading world than that before the UK joined the EEC and in which you say we were so successful and feel we can return to; and the UK has been in the EEC/EU for all of that time as our current trading relationships have been developed and have matured, and Brexiteers say we can just rip up all of that and start again.  Use our influence - our bargaining power as a 'must have' trading partner - that's be the influence and trading power we have developed as part of the EEC/EU - not I suggest anything we can absolutely put down to our own efforts.  

But hey.  When you are in an eight and you think your seven teammates aren't doing as much as they could - even though together you are all pulling together in the same direction and doing not too bad - but you think you really are rather better than them  - then the thing to do is to jump out of the boat, swim ashore and start looking to make a two or find partners for a four - and maybe in time an eight.  

Meanwhile your ex-team mates are miles downstream and you'll never catch them - your only hope being that they sink.  Which they might of course - but that wouldn't be good for anyone - after all they are still your buddies that you'd want to share a beer with.

So let's jump out the middle of the boat into turbulent water - always a good idea.
		
Click to expand...

You really are making some doomsday analogies here.   You seem to  be convinced that the UK are incapable of self destiny or making a success on our own.

I would liken the eight to a 'ship of fools' where the rudder has fallen off,  when you turn the wheel the ship keeps going in a straight line towards some nasty looking rocks, the Captain is telling everyone that all is under control but those rocks aren't going away. Some are rearranging deck chairs and a string quartet of officers have started playing 'nearer my god to thee'   There is a life boat but the coxwain is telling you that it's smaller than the ship and although you are all competent rowers, have a chart and compass  you will have no option but to head off into unchartered waters where nasty sea monsters await.

And the 'Ship of fools'  steams steadily on towards the rocks.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2016)

EU Commisioner blew it for me with his appearance on TV this morning when the pompous man when interviewed said it was time for the EU countries to adopt the policies the commission had passed. It's know wonder that the out side feel that the commission is an uneleted group of retired MPs that rule the roost. It might of helped if he at least suggested that the EU Parliament had voted on said policies.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.  

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering.  When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.  

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering.  When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps if it came from an independent source it might bear more weight


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.  

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering.  When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it "would help us all," as it seems pretty clear that all the Remainers have their opinions cast in concrete just as many of the Brexiters have theirs.

But it is interesting to look at some of the stuff being put out there, and to dig a little laterally. For example, if you look at all the scientific work done pre-1970 by foreign scientists in Oxford & Cambridge. And then if you look at the different scientific research establishments that are in non-EU countries...

I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naÃ¯ve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps if it came from an independent source it might bear more weight
		
Click to expand...

Deflect.  No answer.  What sort of independent scientific community are you thinking of?  Where is the independent scientific community supporting Brexit? So that I can ignore what they say as they are clearly not independent as they support Brexit.  So anything that anyone in the Brexit campaign or in support of the Brexit campaign says - I can ignore as it isn't independent.   Is that how it works?  

A large body of scientists get together to put together their case for and identify the risks against - and you ignore what they say on the grounds that they are not (by opposing Brexit) independent - that is a ludicrous position to take.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think it "would help us all," as it seems pretty clear that all the Remainers have their opinions cast in concrete just as many of the Brexiters have theirs.

But it is interesting to look at some of the stuff being put out there, and to dig a little laterally. For example, if you look at all the scientific work done pre-1970 by foreign scientists in Oxford & Cambridge. And then if you look at the different scientific research establishments that are in non-EU countries...

I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naÃ¯ve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.
		
Click to expand...

But pre-1970 was exactly that.  The world and the scientific community has moved on - massively.  50yrs of water have flowed under the bridge - and the last 50yrs of scientific collaboration and discovery have seen astonishing advances. And we want to go our own way.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2016)

Sorry are they suggesting our scientists won't be able to work on ideas or bring new ideas to the table ? 

Of all the things to worry about in or out - science is the least of my worries personally because whether we stay in or leave it won't stop or scientists being creative , it won't stop then having ideas etc etc.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But pre-1970 was exactly that.  The world and the scientific community has moved on - massively.  50yrs of water have flowed under the bridge - and the last 50yrs of scientific collaboration and discovery have seen astonishing advances. And we want to go our own way.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why I said it wouldn't help. You have a closed mind to anything that doesn't fit your opinion. You can't see beyond the sea shore to the far horizon, no ambition.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Deflect.  No answer.  What sort of independent scientific community are you thinking of?  Where is the independent scientific community supporting Brexit? So that I can ignore what they say as they are clearly not independent as they support Brexit.  So anything that anyone in the Brexit campaign or in support of the Brexit campaign says - I can ignore as it isn't independent.   Is that how it works?  

A large body of scientists get together to put together their case for and identify the risks against - and you ignore what they say on the grounds that they are not (by opposing Brexit) independent - that is a ludicrous position to take.
		
Click to expand...

And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.
		
Click to expand...

Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each.  There are only three risks so it should be easy.   Sounds like Brexit is willing to _Accept _these risks - it would be useful to know how they would _Mitigate_ the risk to reduce the impact of the risk were it to come to pass - and if that's deemed unnecessary how about a _Contingency_ just in case things go wrong.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

*Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.*

Click to expand...

For *this *you have to provide evidence from the Universities that tell us that it won't cease (which of course it won't - except maybe it will if EU funding is immediately pulled), and then that tells us the impact leaving will have.  But I am sensing that were that evidence provided and were it not to fit the Brexit view it would be ignored as not being independent.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each.  There are only three risks so it should be easy.   Sounds like Brexit is willing to _Accept _these risks - it would be useful to know how they would _Mitigate_ the risk to reduce the impact of the risk were it to come to pass - and if that's deemed unnecessary how about a _Contingency_ just in case things go wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I believe you are overstating how much impact this all has in the big picture 

I believe you have latched onto something because it's something that sticks firmly with the in camp 

Am I able to respond to the questions - no because I'm not a scientist - are you ? Or are you taking everything the very pro EU article says as pure gospel ? 

This country has facilities and resources being used be scientists - do you really think that scientists won't be able to do what they do best if we leave ? Or are you that entrenched in their being only one possible way forward ? Are you unable to see that things could be better if we did leave the EU ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe you are overstating how much impact this all has in the big picture 

I believe you have latched onto something because it's something that sticks firmly with the in camp 

Am I able to respond to the questions - no because I'm not a scientist - are you ? Or are you taking everything the very pro EU article says as pure gospel ? 

This country has facilities and resources being used be scientists - do you really think that scientists won't be able to do what they do best if we leave ? Or are you that entrenched in their being only one possible way forward ? Are you unable to see that things could be better if we did leave the EU ?
		
Click to expand...

They might well be scuppered if their current research is EU-funded and the EU withdraws that funding.  

Provide me with evidence that the EU *won't* withdraw funding from universities and other research bodies, and statements from them that says their research will continue unaffected if funding is withdrawn.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			...
I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naÃ¯ve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.
		
Click to expand...

For someone who normally puts forward very sensible arguments, this ranks with the biggest load of codswallop for an argument that I have ever seen! In fact, it actually serves as an argument to stay, rather than one to leave!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They might well be scuppered if their current research is EU-funded and the EU withdraws that funding.  

Provide me with evidence that the EU *won't* withdraw funding from universities and other research bodies, and statements from them that says their research will continue unaffected if funding is withdrawn.
		
Click to expand...

Guess which country provides a good chunk of that EU funding ? We do. Let's not forget we provide a good proportion of money to allow the EU to fund projects.

If we leave the EU then we would provide funding for projects that have merits. Any money we give to the EU can instead be used solely in the UK


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry are they suggesting our scientists won't be able to work on ideas or bring new ideas to the table ? 

Of all the things to worry about in or out - science is the least of my worries personally because whether we stay in or leave it won't stop or scientists being creative , it won't stop then having ideas etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

Science/scientific research needs funding.

If the funding is significantly reduced - as the figures seem to suggest will happen - then there will be significant reduction in the amount of research that will be performed, so the number of ideas, creations and developments will correspondingly be reduced. 

So, sure, science will still happen and there will be developments - just significantly fewer than there could/should be!



Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess which country provides a good chunk of that EU funding ? We do. Let's not forget we provide a good proportion of money to allow the EU to fund projects.

If we leave the EU then we would provide funding for projects that have merits. Any money we give to the EU can instead be used solely in the UK
		
Click to expand...

SILH has already provided figures that show that Science/Research in UK receives far more from the EU than the UK contributes for that area! In fact, an amount equivalent to a serious chunk of the 10Bn or so that is the UK's nett contribution!


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For *this *you have to provide evidence from the Universities that tell us that it won't cease (which of course it won't - except maybe it will if EU funding is immediately pulled), and then that tells us the impact leaving will have.  But I am sensing that were that evidence provided and were it not to fit the Brexit view it would be ignored as not being independent.
		
Click to expand...

Currently have family at Cambridge doing major research for several companies that are not in the EU so I doubt if they are going to run away.

I'm not sure why I need to provide you with evidence that you have no interest in the same as your links that have no real evidence within them don't interest me. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, you have already made up your mind as I have.

Even Chucka Ummunna a big In campaigner admitted on the politics show that nobody really knows what the impact on leaving would be. Some truth from a politician, things are looking up.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each.  There are only three risks so it should be easy.
		
Click to expand...

The third risk is "people" and talks about putting restrictions on EU scientists causing them to put restrictions on UK scientists. Well how about if we don't put restrictions on them? I've no evidence this would happen just as the article you linked to has any evidence that we would introduce restrictions.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			For someone who normally puts forward very sensible arguments, this ranks with the biggest load of codswallop for an argument that I have ever seen! In fact, it actually serves as an argument to stay, rather than one to leave!
		
Click to expand...

There's little substance to it because I can't 'arrised arguing about it. But let's just say the UK left the EU, how much would it cost the EU to build and staff the labs that they would take all the research to from the UK ? Or maybe they scrap x many projects midstream...

i believe, especially in the early days, the collaboration would continue. I can't prove it will, nor that it won't, but can you see it all stopping dead in the water or being moved to labs that don't exist at present?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			SILH has already provided figures that show that Science/Research in UK receives far more from the EU than the UK contributes for that area! In fact, an amount equivalent to a serious chunk of the 10Bn or so that is the UK's nett contribution!
		
Click to expand...

If we receive "far more" in that area than we contribute then in other areas we have to receive far less than we contribute otherwise we wouldn't have a nett contribution of 10, 12 or 14 billion per year - or whatever the actual figure is. 

You can't offset the extra we get for science against our nett contribution and say it's a good thing without admitting also that the extra 2 billion we pay in compared to what we get back for the environment is a bad thing. (2 billion and environment were plucked from mid air as an example rather than being based on actual figures)


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			If we receive "far more" in that area than we contribute then in other areas we have to receive far less than we contribute otherwise we wouldn't have a nett contribution of 10, 12 or 14 billion per year - or whatever the actual figure is. 

You can't offset the extra we get for science against our nett contribution and say it's a good thing without admitting also that the extra 2 billion we pay in compared to what we get back for the environment is a bad thing. (2 billion and environment were plucked from mid air as an example rather than being based on actual figures)
		
Click to expand...

Careful! You're being far too intelligent.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful! You're being far too intelligent.
		
Click to expand...

Can you prove that


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			If we receive "far more" in that area than we contribute then in other areas we have to receive far less than we contribute otherwise we wouldn't have a nett contribution of 10, 12 or 14 billion per year - or whatever the actual figure is. 

You can't offset the extra we get for science against our nett contribution and say it's a good thing without admitting also that the extra 2 billion we pay in compared to what we get back for the environment is a bad thing. (2 billion and environment were plucked from mid air as an example rather than being based on actual figures)
		
Click to expand...

Happy to admit/agree with the above! However, Scientific Research is one of UK's particular talents, which would be greatly diminished by withdrawal from EU. The nett contribution merely reflects the better position the UK economy is in than SOME other EU members. The overall UK contribution, from (old) figures I'v seen is actually one of the lowest per capita contributions!


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Can you prove that 

Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure why I need to provide you with evidence that you have no interest in the same as your links that have no real evidence within them don't interest me. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, you have already made up your mind as I have.
		
Click to expand...

It would seem you don't believe in the need to do so!

Merely to sit in your own back surrounded by a huge brick wall and throw negativity over the wall! Insularity of the highest order!


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It would seem you don't believe in the need to do so!

Merely to sit in your own back surrounded by a huge brick wall and throw negativity over the wall! Insularity of the highest order!
		
Click to expand...

I think you'll find there was a smiley on hobbits post.

im not throwing negatives, I would love to see a truly independent artical from the powers to be with actual for and against arguments not just we're doomed if we leave and we're doomed if we stay, the don't knows don't have any real facts which help the everyday voter who want to know how it effects them, not Prof Hawkins.

It is obviouse that most on here have decided how to vote so really how negative I've been won't make a jot of difference. It's not for me to convince anyone how to vote, I just hope people vote.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Currently have family at Cambridge doing major research for several companies that are not in the EU so I doubt if they are going to run away.

I'm not sure why I need to provide you with evidence that you have no interest in the same as your links that have no real evidence within them don't interest me. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, you have already made up your mind as I have.

Even Chucka Ummunna a big In campaigner admitted on the politics show that nobody really knows what the impact on leaving would be. Some truth from a politician, things are looking up.
		
Click to expand...

And every Uni in the UK is just like Canbridge so that's all right. 

Chukka Umunna said it is an unknown which is simply a statement of the bleeding obvious because there is no precedent. You should not interpret that as him thinking it is a neutral event. See if any of the Brexit similarly admitting the benefit side is also an unknown rather than relying on wishful thinking pseudo-patriotism.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And every Ui in the UK is just like Canbridge so that's all right.
		
Click to expand...

Im glad your happy


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find there was a smiley on hobbits post.

im not throwing negatives, I would love to see a truly independent artical from the powers to be with actual for and against arguments not just we're doomed if we leave and we're doomed if we stay, the don't knows don't have any real facts which help the everyday voter who want to know how it effects them, not Prof Hawkins.

It is obviouse that most on here have decided how to vote so really how negative I've been won't make a jot of difference. It's not for me to convince anyone how to vote, I just hope people vote.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have political aspirations? You certainly seem to corrupt any statement to make it seem to correspond with your point of view! Ethan beat me to refute your comment about Ummuna's statement!

Prof Hawkins wasn't talking about how it *a*ffects him - but how it affects science in general and research in particular!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And every Ui in the UK is just like Canbridge so that's all right. 

Chicks Umunna said it is an unknown which is simply a statement of the bleeding obvious because there is no precedent. You should not interpret that as him thinking it is a neutral event. See if any of the Brexit similarly admitting the benefit side is also an unknown rather than relying on wishful thinking pseudo-patriotism.
		
Click to expand...

For a man that likes correcting the spelling and grammar mistakes on other people's posts there sure are a lot in that post. ;-)


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Do you have political aspirations? You certainly seem to corrupt any statement to make it seem to correspond with your point of view!
		
Click to expand...

None as I'm not to keen on the political class however I'm not sure where I corrupted any statements. Perhaps I just don't agree with you and your mate that's all.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And every Ui in the UK is just like Canbridge so that's all right. 

Chicks Umunna said it is an unknown which is simply a statement of the bleeding obvious because there is no precedent. You should not interpret that as him thinking it is a neutral event. See if any of the Brexit similarly admitting the benefit side is also an unknown rather than relying on wishful thinking pseudo-patriotism.
		
Click to expand...

Unknown - without knowledge of - so nobody really knows is hardly a corruption.

Where did I say it's a neutral event.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			For a man that likes correcting the spelling and grammar mistakes on other people's posts there sure are a lot in that post. ;-)
		
Click to expand...

There is a difference between iPhone autocorrect and illiteracy.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			There is a difference between iPhone autocorrect and illiteracy.
		
Click to expand...

There is also a difference between debating different opinions and crass rudeness.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2016)

Ah the old "autocorrect" excuse. I could have predicted that one. Not sure you'd be so keen to accept that from anyone else. There's also a big difference between posting any old crap and checking what you've typed before posting. It's a long way to fall from your high horse especially when it's as high as the one you constantly put yourself on.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2016)

A great deal of scientific research is carried out in research institutions (not always universities) and funded by private business.   There is a lot of collaboration between different research agencies as it speeds up the process and brings in a variety of expertise to projects.   Some funding is through the EU and UK Government  but some is through cooperation with countries such as Switzerland, The USA, India and many more.   There could well be a some funding cut off from the EU if the UK leave but overall my opinion is that there would not be a sudden and fundamental cut off in research through Brexit.   Other countries would want the input from our brightest minds just like we would like input from theirs.

This subject has unknowns but I think to suggest that there would be harm to future research if we leave is painting an unnecessarily grim picture.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A great deal of scientific research is carried out in research institutions (not always universities) and funded by private business.   There is a lot of collaboration between different research agencies as it speeds up the process and brings in a variety of expertise to projects.   Some funding is through the EU and UK Government  but some is through cooperation with countries such as Switzerland, The USA, India and many more.   There could well be a some funding cut off from the EU if the UK leave but overall my opinion is that there would not be a sudden and fundamental cut off in research through Brexit.   Other countries would want the input from our brightest minds just like we would like input from theirs.

This subject has unknowns but I think to suggest that there would be harm to future research if we leave is painting an unnecessarily grim picture.
		
Click to expand...

That research will very likely continue - dependent upon whether those multi-nationals stay in UK if there's a Brexit. The numbers (Â£s/Euros) involved in the in/out discussion are quite separate to those 'commercial' ones!

And is that the known unknowns, or the (most feared) unknown unknowns (thanks Donald (R)!)!

As for the funding...When that disappears, then the research does too! Though it - and the scientists involved - would probably go to where the funding was transferred to!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That research will very likely continue - dependent upon whether those multi-nationals stay in UK if there's a Brexit. The numbers (Â£s/Euros) involved in the in/out discussion are quite separate to those 'commercial' ones!

And is that the known unknowns, or the (most feared) unknown unknowns (thanks Donald (R)!)!


As for the funding...When that disappears, then the research does too! Though it - and the scientists involved - would probably go to where the funding was transferred to!
		
Click to expand...

We would still be able to fund research.   Why would we not do that?


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We would still be able to fund research.   Why would we not do that?
		
Click to expand...

Classic cop-out and political clap-trap!

Of course we would! But are you prepared, personally, to top up the difference between what UK government pays for research and the total amount received?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



*Classic cop-out and political clap-trap!*

Of course we would! But are you prepared, personally, to top up the difference between what UK government pays for research and the total amount received?
		
Click to expand...

Classic rude reply that is nothing but juvenile name calling, grow up!  I asked you a civil question and would prefer a civil answer please!

Of course I am prepared to meet the difference.  Where do you think the money the EU uses comes from?


----------



## Ethan (Mar 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Ah the old "autocorrect" excuse. I could have predicted that one. Not sure you'd be so keen to accept that from anyone else. There's also a big difference between posting any old crap and checking what you've typed before posting. It's a long way to fall from your high horse especially when it's as high as the one you constantly put yourself on.
		
Click to expand...

Well, it happens on the iPhone like I am using now and I couldn't give a shirt whether you believe it or not. You can be a bit of a brick, old chap.


----------



## jdpjamesp (Mar 22, 2016)

Does anyone think that being in the EU helps us in terms of reducing our visibility as a target for terrorist attacks? If we're in the EU then there are some nice meaty targets in places like Belgium and France that they can target and be seen to be hitting the EU who are causing trouble for them. If we're not in the EU then suddenly our actions in places like Syria become the actions of Britain, not the EU, and therefore London gets a big red X painted on it. 
Or am I just being naive?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

jdpjamesp said:



			Does anyone think that being in the EU helps us in terms of reducing our visibility as a target for terrorist attacks? If we're in the EU then there are some nice meaty targets in places like Belgium and France that they can target and be seen to be hitting the EU who are causing trouble for them. If we're not in the EU then suddenly our actions in places like Syria become the actions of Britain, not the EU, and therefore London gets a big red X painted on it. 
Or am I just being naive?
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe we have carried out any military intervention on behalf of the EU so I would think it would make no difference.


----------



## jdpjamesp (Mar 22, 2016)

True, but we act as a part of the EU?


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2016)

jdpjamesp said:



			Does anyone think that being in the EU helps us in terms of reducing our visibility as a target for terrorist attacks? If we're in the EU then there are some nice meaty targets in places like Belgium and France that they can target and be seen to be hitting the EU who are causing trouble for them. If we're not in the EU then suddenly our actions in places like Syria become the actions of Britain, not the EU, and therefore London gets a big red X painted on it. 
Or am I just being naive?
		
Click to expand...

Last line has it in one.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

jdpjamesp said:



			True, but we act as a part of the EU?
		
Click to expand...

We act as part of the UN and NATO not EU


----------



## jdpjamesp (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We act as part of the UN and NATO not EU
		
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. As you were.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course I am prepared to meet the difference.  Where do you think the money the EU uses comes from? 

Click to expand...

The issue being that this Â£10bn (or whatever it is) funding gap is suddenly being promised to 101 different areas.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			The issue being that this Â£10bn (or whatever it is) funding gap is suddenly being promised to 101 different areas.
		
Click to expand...

That's not what I meant, forget the funding gap.   We already pay money into the EU every week and part of that money is currently being put into research and development.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not what I meant, forget the funding gap.   We already pay money into the EU every week and part of that money is currently being put into research and development.
		
Click to expand...

So where are all the research bodies/institutions supporting the case for Brexit and stating that they are confident that their research programmes won't be affected or stating that they will be happy to accommodate any reduction in funding.  Surely with many in the Science and Research community coming out stating the case for staying and the risks of leaving - the equivalent community in the Brexit camp will be making *their * point - or is it that that community just does not exist, and in that resounding silence is the _Remain _case made for Scientific Research?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So where are all the research bodies/institutions supporting the case for Brexit and stating that they are confident that their research programmes won't be affected or stating that they will be happy to accommodate any reduction in funding.  *Surely with many in the Science and Research community coming out stating the case for staying and the risks of leaving* - the equivalent community in the Brexit camp will be making *their * point - or is it that that community just does not exist, and in that resounding silence is the _Remain _case made for Scientific Research?
		
Click to expand...

Many ? Really ? 

Who exactly because I haven't heard anyone bar that link you put up ?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Many ? Really ? 

Who exactly because I haven't heard anyone bar that link you put up ?
		
Click to expand...

I think I kicked off this whole sorry episode about science funding about 3 thousand posts back saying Hawking and 150 Royal Society Scientists, including 3 Nobel laureates and The Astronomer Royal, wrote a letter to The Times saying they wanted us to stay in.  Not sure if that counts as '_many'_ in the fact based proof world we live in on this forum. Possibly it's '_quite a few_', certainly '_a decent number_' and I'd go as far as saying more than '_a handful_' . 

Sorry but I do not know each of their names through before you ask for that.  The ghost of Magnus Pyke and Patrick Moore may have been in there, but I can't confirm that. Also possibly Nina from Nina and the Neurons on CBBC? Doc from Back to the Future?? The 2 nerdy lads who created Kelly LeBrock in Weird Science?  Sorry, I'm struggling here.


----------



## IanG (Mar 22, 2016)

At the risk of seeming like an arrogant and somewhat lazy git I'm quoting a post I made over a year ago about the Scottish Independence Referendum. With the obvious swapping out of words I think it applies pretty much identically to the upcoming EU referendum. 


" Surely the independence decision is so momentous and long term that details about whether we're Â£1000 better or worse off, or whether UKIP will form the next Westminster government are not the real basis on which we who have a vote should be deciding. 

This is good news really because (in my opinion) we will not have reliable information on any such detailed questions come polling day.

The way I see it is that we need to ask ourselves simply "do we WANT to be independent" or "do we WANT to be part of the UK"? And by "want" I'm afraid I mean in our guts & hearts. For such a long term decision, known unknowns such whether England will vote the UK out of Europe are small beer in comparison to what country we want to live in. 

Take an example, imagine someone persuaded you that it would be economically better to become the 52nd state of the USA. Despite all the geo-political clout that would bring, would you sign up? I suspect most of us would answer rather fast with a 'thanks but, no-thanks', because we don't 'want' to be part of the US. We don't need, nor should we use, microscopic analysis to know the answer. 

So when all the froth has died away and we find ourselves alone in the polling booth in September, I suspect most of us will find it pretty easy to know which way we want to vote. And if we all answer that question honestly we'll get the correct outcome for both Scotland and the rUK - whatever that is. Finding out the answer is the purpose of the poll after all.    " 

I fear the thirst for 'facts' and 'proof will remain unquenched. 

Ian


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think I kicked off this whole sorry episode about science funding about 3 thousand posts back saying Hawking and 150 Royal Society Scientists, including 3 Nobel laureates and The Astronomer Royal, wrote a letter to The Times saying they wanted us to stay in.  Not sure if that counts as '_many'_ in the fact based proof world we live in on this forum. Possibly it's '_quite a few_', certainly '_a decent number_' and I'd go as far as saying more than '_a handful_' . 

Sorry but I do not know each of their names through before you ask for that.  The ghost of Magnus Pyke and Patrick Moore may have been in there, but I can't confirm that. Also possibly Nina from Nina and the Neurons on CBBC? Doc from Back to the Future?? The 2 nerdy lads who created Kelly LeBrock in Weird Science?  Sorry, I'm struggling here.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou HK - the thing about the statements by this specific scientific community is that the Brexiteers respnse to it seems to me to be symptomatic of the state of play.  _Remain_ supporters try and state a case and highlight risks - Brexiteers dismiss it as being from a vested-interest; part of Remain campaign; irrelevant or scaremongering, and that is it.

So here we have it - a sizeable body from the scientific community state the case - and what do Brexit do?  They question whether the scientific body is 'big' or 'representative'

Truth is - it doesn't really matter - because other than from a few disparate individuals I am not hearing from an equivalent body supporting the Brexit case.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou HK - the thing about the statements by this specific scientific community is that the Brexiteers respnse to it seems to me to be symptomatic of the state of play.  _Remain_ supporters try and state a case and highlight risks - Brexiteers dismiss it as being from a vested-interest; part of Remain campaign; irrelevant or scaremongering, and that is it.

So here we have it - a sizeable body from the scientific community state the case - and what do Brexit do?  They question whether the scientific body is 'big' or 'representative'

Truth is - it doesn't really matter - because other than from a few disparate individuals I am not hearing from an equivalent body supporting the Brexit case.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe because in the grand scheme of things is not a big vote swinger for people 

Maybe they are too busy right now just carrying on with that they are doing

I said it a while back - you are going to latch on to every Tom dick and Harry that supports staying in the EU and you will demand a response from people wanting to leave 

When thinking about what leaving the EU could do for the country and its people - scientific research is something I believe we will always fund both publically and privately regardless.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 22, 2016)

Irrespective of all the 'expert' opinions being voiced...

Absolutely no one knows, for sure, what will happen irrespective of the eventual outcome of the vote...


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou HK - the thing about the statements by this specific scientific community is that the Brexiteers respnse to it seems to me to be symptomatic of the state of play.  _Remain_ supporters try and state a case and highlight risks - Brexiteers dismiss it as being from a vested-interest; part of Remain campaign; irrelevant or scaremongering, and that is it.

So here we have it - a sizeable body from the scientific community state the case - and what do Brexit do?  They question whether the scientific body is 'big' or 'representative'

Truth is - it doesn't really matter - because other than from a few disparate individuals I am not hearing from an equivalent body supporting the Brexit case.
		
Click to expand...

Good post. Without a doubt accurate, and with good questions.

At the risk of repetition, for me its still about self determination and ambition. I know we'll lose things, some good things some not so good. I also believe we'll get two very important things (for me). The ability to make our own laws/rules and the opportunity to do things our way(ambition). We may want scientific research to go in a particular direction, or way may want to heavily subsidise a failing industry that current EU law won't permit, e.g. Steel Making on Teesside.

I absolutely defend the direction you will so obviously be voting in. I'll be voting out, even though in the short term it might be a little painful, but I do feel it will be better for the UK long term. I feel the EU is failing, and that failure will accelerate with the inclusion of Turkey, but that isn't my reasons for voting out. Self determination and an ambition to grow beyond the limits imposed by EU legislation, e.g. restrictions on subsidies, are my reasons.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 22, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Irrespective of all the 'expert' opinions being voiced...

Absolutely no one knows, for sure, what will happen irrespective of the eventual outcome of the vote...
		
Click to expand...

So you prefer 'inexpert' opinions?


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 22, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you prefer 'inexpert' opinions?
		
Click to expand...


They'll be just as 'useful' as the 'expert' ones as to what will happen post referendum...


----------



## Ethan (Mar 22, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			They'll be just as 'useful' as the 'expert' ones as to what will happen post referendum...
		
Click to expand...

That is another point on which you and I disagree. 

Even the basic argument you make, that nobody knows what will happen, even if that is true, that means a period of huge uncertainty. The stock markets hate uncertainty, so the stock market will take a dive, along with your pension fund (depending on where it is invested) and mine.

There is an old notion that even if you are in an unsatisfactory place (and I don't agree that UK in the EU is that), you should never assume that it couldn't be worse elsewhere. It can often by very much worse. You should also require a high burden of evidence needed to take that leap into the unknown. 

Brexit is a massive risk, and all the bluster about the UK not having enough belief is comically naive and just pandering to a misguided sense of patriotism.


----------



## Del_Boy (Mar 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Even Chucka Ummunna a big In campaigner admitted on the politics show that nobody really knows what the impact on leaving would be. Some truth from a politician, things are looking up.
		
Click to expand...

That's my reason for staying as no one has got a scubby what the impact will be if we leave.

Bit like someone rings me up and says I've got this great job for you at Company X only snag I'll tell you when you start what you are doing or how much you'll get paid.  Would I leave my current role even if it was crap for this.  Unlikely.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So where are all the research bodies/institutions supporting the case for Brexit and stating that they are confident that their research programmes won't be affected or stating that they will be happy to accommodate any reduction in funding.  Surely with many in the Science and Research community coming out stating the case for staying and the risks of leaving - the equivalent community in the Brexit camp will be making *their * point - or is it that that community just does not exist, and in that resounding silence is the _Remain _case made for Scientific Research?
		
Click to expand...

It suits many institutions like Universities to stay in the EU, they get a lot of Undergraduates from there and are concerned that they will lose revenue if we leave.   If they came out and said that then I could understand their concerns but to suggest that research and development would become an extinct species in the UK if we leave is IMO not true.   You can of course ignore my opinion or consider it wrong but I assure you it is not a scare story, more a story of hope and confidence in my Nation.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			That's my reason for staying as no one has got a scubby what the impact will be if we leave.

Bit like someone rings me up and says I've got this great job for you at Company X only snag I'll tell you when you start what you are doing or how much you'll get paid.  Would I leave my current role even if it was crap for this.  Unlikely.
		
Click to expand...

I dont think thats a good analogy.   A better one would be if a Friend rang you up and said I am starting a new business, how would you like to come and join me so that we could make our own way rather than be minions in the current outfit that seems to be losing it's way.


----------



## Del_Boy (Mar 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont think thats a good analogy.   A better one would be if a Friend rang you up and said I am starting a new business, how would you like to come and join me so that we could make our own way rather than be minions in the current outfit that seems to be losing it's way.
		
Click to expand...

To that I can ask him what are your business plans what is that based on etc before making an informed decision .  With brexit to me there is no plan as to what happens next if we vote out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think I kicked off this whole sorry episode about science funding about 3 thousand posts back saying Hawking and 150 Royal Society Scientists, including 3 Nobel laureates and The Astronomer Royal, wrote a letter to The Times saying they wanted us to stay in.  Not sure if that counts as '_many'_ in the fact based proof world we live in on this forum. Possibly it's '_quite a few_', certainly '_a decent number_' and I'd go as far as saying more than '_a handful_' . 

*Sorry but I do not know each of their names through before you ask for that.  The ghost of Magnus Pyke and Patrick Moore may have been in there, but I can't confirm that. Also possibly Nina from Nina and the Neurons on CBBC? Doc from Back to the Future?? The 2 nerdy lads who created Kelly LeBrock in Weird Science?  Sorry, I'm struggling here.*

Click to expand...

I'm never sure whether these comments you make a light hearted or cynical. I suspect the latter but admit I may be wrong as I tend to take peoples comments very much at face value.   I guess my stalker will be along to compound the situation very soon.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			To that I can ask him what are your business plans what is that based on etc before making an informed decision .  With brexit to me there is no plan as to what happens next if we vote out.
		
Click to expand...

To which he may well reply: We have a great product which we have great confidence in and have a track record in sales around the world.  Our expertise and freedom to trade with more customers now we are not tied down to the restrictive practices of our previous company could and should be the best opportunity we will ever have.  There will be a risk as there is staying as we are but are you up for a challenge?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm never sure whether these comments you make a light hearted or cynical. I suspect the latter but admit I may be wrong as I tend to take peoples comments very much at face value.   I guess my stalker will be along to compound the situation very soon.
		
Click to expand...

You don't do humour or irony do you?


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			You don't do humour or irony do you?
		
Click to expand...

I often get confused when people make comments like you did in that post.   You seem to be very serious on the subject then put in these comments that can be construed as belittling the opponent or just outright contradictory in abstraction.  So you are probably correct.  I don't.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It suits many institutions like Universities to stay in the EU, they get a lot of Undergraduates from there and are concerned that they will lose revenue if we leave.   If they came out and said that then I could understand their concerns but* to suggest that research and development would become an extinct species in the UK if we leave *is IMO not true.   You can of course ignore my opinion or consider it wrong but I assure you it is not a scare story, more a story of hope and confidence in my Nation.
		
Click to expand...

Who is suggesting *this*?  I am certainly not- and the community stating the benefits and risks isn't either.  So in fact you are creating scaremongering and putting it at the door of the Remain campaign.  I repeat,  if this scientific community is neither significant nor representative, then where is the equivalent grouping telling us that things will be just fine when we leave, I don not hear these groups.  

But no.  Brexit choose to dismiss the views of these experts and do not counter their stated risks - in much the same way that just over the last few days the views of John Major and the CBI have been dismissed.

And as far as noone knowing how things will be after the referendum.  Well  we know for sure how things will be were we to stay in.  No-one has a scooby about how things will actually be in the long term after an Out.  We know for certain a lot of risks that are being framed and put by the various groups and bodies opposed to leaving - and that we dpont get much in the way of mitigations or contingencies from Brexit.  And we know for certain that things will be all over the shop in the transitional period to the post exit steady state.  But we have no idea how long thattransition will be and no idea of what that new steady state is going to be.

But trust us they say - we can't provide any evidence but trust us -things will be just grand.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			To that I can ask him what are your business plans what is that based on etc before making an informed decision .  With brexit to me there is no plan as to what happens next if we vote out.
		
Click to expand...

..and he will be asked about the risks associated with his new business.  What are the risks to his business and business plan; what is his financial exposure as a result of these risks; how does he mitigate these risks and do his mitigation plans reduce his financial exposure; what is the cost of his risk mitigations and what is the residual risk with associated likelihood of occurance; and what are his contingency plans for a risk if he has accepted the risk, or his mitigations fail and the risk materialises.  

Pretty basic risk management. Hearing nothing of it from Brexit - but seeing plenty of wings a-flapping and hearing many a prayer being incanted


----------



## ger147 (Mar 22, 2016)

Could hardly be closer at the moment...

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who is suggesting *this*?  I am certainly not- and the community stating the benefits and risks isn't either.  So in fact you are creating scaremongering and putting it at the door of the Remain campaign.  I repeat,  if this scientific community is neither significant nor representative, then where is the equivalent grouping telling us that things will be just fine when we leave, I don not hear these groups.  

But no.  Brexit choose to dismiss the views of these experts and do not counter their stated risks - in much the same way that just over the last few days the views of John Major and the CBI have been dismissed.

And as far as noone knowing how things will be after the referendum. * Well  we know for sure how things will be were we to stay in. * No-one has a scooby about how things will actually be in the long term after an Out.  We know for certain a lot of risks that are being framed and put by the various groups and bodies opposed to leaving - and that we dpont get much in the way of mitigations or contingencies from Brexit.  And we know for certain that things will be all over the shop in the transitional period to the post exit steady state.  But we have no idea how long thattransition will be and no idea of what that new steady state is going to be.

But trust us they say - we can't provide any evidence but trust us -things will be just grand.
		
Click to expand...

Couple of things in regards the bit i have highlighted - is it possible that things could change for the worse for the UK in the future ? Yes or no 

But even if things do stay the same that for a lot of people is a good enough reason to leave the EU


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Could hardly be closer at the moment...

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

Click to expand...

Unless the youth come out and vote IMO for what it's worth, it will be an out vote, the record of the pollsters over the last few years appears a bit suspect.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2016)

If the government wrote it into law that all current spending levels for projects funded by the EU (scientific research, environmental protection etc) would be maintained if we were to leave the EU and the extra money saved (our Â£10 billion nett contribution or whatever it is) would be used to increase rather than cut disability benefits and reverse a lot of the austerity measures would any of those saying they are voting to stay be tempted to change their mind?

I know that it won't happen as the government are campaigning for us to stay in but if it was done it would probably be enough to sway me from my current position of not 100% sure but probably just on the side of staying in to actually voting to leave.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who is suggesting *this*?  I am certainly not- and the community stating the benefits and risks isn't either.  So in fact you are creating scaremongering and putting it at the door of the Remain campaign.  I repeat,  if this scientific community is neither significant nor representative, then where is the equivalent grouping telling us that things will be just fine when we leave, I don not hear these groups.  

But no.  Brexit choose to dismiss the views of these experts and do not counter their stated risks - in much the same way that just over the last few days the views of John Major and the CBI have been dismissed.

And as far as noone knowing how things will be after the referendum.  Well  we know for sure how things will be were we to stay in.  No-one has a scooby about how things will actually be in the long term after an Out.  We know for certain a lot of risks that are being framed and put by the various groups and bodies opposed to leaving - and that we dpont get much in the way of mitigations or contingencies from Brexit.  And we know for certain that things will be all over the shop in the transitional period to the post exit steady state.  But we have no idea how long thattransition will be and no idea of what that new steady state is going to be.

But trust us they say - we can't provide any evidence but trust us -things will be just grand.
		
Click to expand...

The 'Extinct Species' was a tongue in cheek comment (Thought it was me that lacked a sense humour) 

OK, how about putting a risk assessment against us staying in the EU.  Consider issues like: The state of the Euro and the way this will affect other countries in the same way as Greece, the failing economies, high unemployment, destabilisation due to current migration levels, the security issues derived through Shengin, the falling trade levels, the probable acceptance of Turkey into the EU.    And you think leaving is riddled with risk!!


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			That is another point on which you and I disagree. 

Even the basic argument you make, that nobody knows what will happen, even if that is true, that means a period of huge uncertainty. The stock markets hate uncertainty, so the stock market will take a dive, along with your pension fund (depending on where it is invested) and mine.
		
Click to expand...

Stock markets take a dive seemingly at every opportunity... And, usually for reasons ordinary working folk like myself will never fully understand... If it wasn't about possible 'brexit' the suits, I am sure, would find another reason to panic and take a dip into my pension pot...


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who is suggesting *this*?  I am certainly not- and the community stating the benefits and risks isn't either.  So in fact you are creating scaremongering and putting it at the door of the Remain campaign.  I repeat,  if this scientific community is neither significant nor representative, then where is the equivalent grouping telling us that things will be just fine when we leave, I don not hear these groups. .
		
Click to expand...

Remind me how many experts. Was it 150 out of 64 million? Is that truly representative? Is that truly representative of the voting population? Is that truly representative of the Remainers?

Are you that blinkered that 150 people out of xx millions is what you are hanging your hat on? Really! 150 people! 150 people are your peers out of xx million?! Seriously?!

4 pages of you hanging your hat on 150 people is the back bone of your argument?!

Well whoopee do, you've convinced me coz 150 people have said..... Sorry but whether you're arguing for or against that just Rollox!


----------



## Del_Boy (Mar 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			To which he may well reply: We have a great product which we have great confidence in and have a track record in sales around the world.  Our expertise and freedom to trade with more customers now we are not tied down to the restrictive practices of our previous company could and should be the best opportunity we will ever have.  There will be a risk as there is staying as we are but are you up for a challenge?
		
Click to expand...

to which I would reply where is your market research that even remotely suggests we can increase our sales from what we are currently selling


----------



## Big Whacker (Mar 23, 2016)

We are well above the majority of countries who want a slice of British cake. Why should we let the have it when we can't provide for our own?

I'm out.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Remind me how many experts. Was it 150 out of 64 million? Is that truly representative? Is that truly representative of the voting population? Is that truly representative of the Remainers?

Are you that blinkered that 150 people out of xx millions is what you are hanging your hat on? Really! 150 people! 150 people are your peers out of xx million?! Seriously?!

4 pages of you hanging your hat on 150 people is the back bone of your argument?!

Well whoopee do, you've convinced me coz 150 people have said..... Sorry but whether you're arguing for or against that just Rollox!
		
Click to expand...

I think the point is that it was 150 of the most prominent scientists, who you would have to assume know what they are talking about in their specific field and represent the views of leading lights in the science community. It is not everyone that has even used a bunsen burner in the country. And I am sure other scientists may well disagree. But the fact that they are the most prominent scientists is why *some* people are listening to their argument when it comes to science funding.  And to *some* people science funding is important. 

But it is free country and if people want to dismiss/ignore it and science funding is not something that bothers them then that's perfectly fine as well.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the point is that it was 150 of the most prominent scientists, who you would have to assume know what they are talking about in their specific field and represent the views of leading lights in the science community. It is not everyone that has even used a bunsen burner in the country. And I am sure other scientists may well disagree. But the fact that they are the most prominent scientists is why *some* people are listening to their argument when it comes to science funding.  And to *some* people science funding is important. 

But it is free country and if people want to dismiss/ignore it and science funding is not something that bothers them then that's perfectly fine as well.
		
Click to expand...

And fine with me too.  I just suggested that the attitude towards what this group have said about staying/leaving is a bit symptomatic of  the response Brexiteers give to any input from any group putting the case for staying and expressing the risks they see with leaving.  Risks are dismissed and benefits predicted as being equally available to a UK out of the EU.

But I recognise that this is as much, if not more, a matter of the heart as it is the head - so arguments and requests I have made for Brexiteers to counter the risks will fall on largely deaf ears.  Because for Brexiteers - just as for those proponents of independence in the Scottish referendum said - are clearly and simply expressing a willingness to take the risk, and work to make a UK out of the EU as successful as it currently is - if not better.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Stock markets take a dive seemingly at every opportunity... And, usually for reasons ordinary working folk like myself will never fully understand... If it wasn't about possible 'brexit' the suits, I am sure, would find another reason to panic and take a dip into my pension pot...
		
Click to expand...

They fall for a variety of reasons indeed, but ordinary working people often lose out, so if you are OK with another loss, fine.

One thing that will happen for certain is canny big money investors exploiting and possibly even driving the uncertainty so they can short sell and make a killing. The same will happen with the pound versus the euro. Basically they sell loads of stock (or currency), which contributes to the drop in price, then they further talk the price down, then buy it back at a lower price and when it recovers, they are sitting on a very tidy profit. Their automatic buying and selling systems are probably already programmed to do this around June 23rd.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			They fall for a variety of reasons indeed, but ordinary working people often lose out, so if you are OK with another loss, fine.
		
Click to expand...


Ordinary working folk have already 'lost' a great deal due to 'globalisation' [of which EU membership is a part]... So, I am more than willing to 'risk' a bit of de-globalisation as a step in the right direction to restore some balance...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Ordinary working folk have already 'lost' a great deal due to 'globalisation' [of which EU membership is a part]... So, I am more than willing to 'risk' a bit of de-globalisation as a step in the right direction to restore some balance...
		
Click to expand...

UK business and exports will suffer if were to de-globalise a bit - even if such a thing were possible - we live in a 365x7 interconnected world.  

For instance - where do our car manufacturers get their steel from?  We know it is no longer the UK.  But we can sort that by imposing import tariffs on steel to encourage our own steel industry to flourish.  But do we have the steel making capacity?  Not at the moment - and even if we *can* rebuild the capacity can we produce steel at the cost the manufacturers need to be able to sell their UK-produced vehicles at their required price-point?  And if our steel or imported steel with the import tariff is too expensive - and the cars are hence too expensive to build, and then add EU import tariffs on our cars - then the manufacturers may well move their plants to where they can build the cars economically.

Globalisation and interconnected business, industry and commerce are facts of life that did not exist in anything like their current form pre-EEC membership days.  The environment was totally different back then and there is no point in the UK trying to play today the ball game that worked back then.

Just saying.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UK business and exports will suffer if were to de-globalise a bit - even if such a thing were possible - we live in a 365x7 interconnected world.  

For instance - where do our car manufacturers get their steel from?  We know it is no longer the UK.  But we can sort that by imposing import tariffs on steel to encourage our own steel industry to flourish.  But do we have the steel making capacity?  Not at the moment - and even if we *can* rebuild the capacity can we produce steel at the cost the manufacturers need to be able to sell their UK-produced vehicles at their required price-point?  And if our steel or imported steel with the import tariff is too expensive - and the cars are hence too expensive to build, and then add EU import tariffs on our cars - then the manufacturers may well move their plants to where they can build the cars economically.

Globalisation and interconnected business, industry and commerce are facts of life that did not exist in anything like their current form pre-EEC membership days.  The environment was totally different back then and there is no point in the UK trying to play today the ball game that worked back then.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...


Jeepers Hogie some serious corporate speak in there ...

With the path we are taking now, I see no future for my grandsons... With a diversion, I am hoping for some change in their chances... At worst, I don't believe the possibilities will be diminished...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Jeepers Hogie some serious corporate speak in there ...

With the path we are taking now, I see no future for my grandsons... With a diversion, I am hoping for some change in their chances... At worst, I don't believe the possibilities will be diminished...
		
Click to expand...

And of course none of it is scaremongering


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And of course none of it is scaremongering
		
Click to expand...

I really don't think it is.  

If we produce our own steel - using our 'our own' people - once we have built or re-opened the steel works - we will have a base wages structure that will be higher than it is today (no more low wage Eastern Europeans doing the basic unskilled work).  Then I cannot see how our steel can be anything but significantly more expensive than, say, Chinese steel.  With higher car manufacturing wage costs and higher steel costs how do our manufacturers make cars at the cost they do today?  And as we will have imposed import tariffs (as a minimum on steel) it is likely that there will be some (maybe not significant - but some) import tariffs for exporting these cars to Europe and RoW, and there will be a cost associated with having access to the single EU market for these exports.  

And so I then simply ask why would the manufacturers therefore continue to manufacture cars here if they can build them and sell them cheaper by being based in the EU?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Jeepers Hogie some serious corporate speak in there ...

With the path we are taking now, I see no future for my grandsons... With a diversion, I am hoping for some change in their chances... At worst, I don't believe the possibilities will be diminished...
		
Click to expand...

Genuine question with no agenda, what path are we taking now? And why do you see no future in it?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

Why would we have to produce the steel here? Why wouldn't we just keep buying cheaper steel from China or wherever and let the car manufacturers keep making cars at the current price? No point in boosting our steel industry (do we have one left) while shafting the car manufacturers at the same time.


----------



## bluewolf (Mar 23, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Genuine question with no agenda, what path are we taking now? And why do you see no future in it?
		
Click to expand...

Because unfettered capitalism requires constant growth. And you can't have constant growth when some of the variables are finite. Such as land space and the ability to provide food for an increasing population.


----------



## bluewolf (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why would we have to produce the steel here? Why wouldn't we just keep buying cheaper steel from China or wherever and let the car manufacturers keep making cars at the current price? No point in boosting our steel industry (do we have one left) while shafting the car manufacturers at the same time.
		
Click to expand...

He was replying to a post about De-Globalisation. If you want to keep things local, then buying from China is not feasible.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

Ah OK. Couldn't work out why he would suggest using more expensive home made steel but that makes sense now cheers.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why would we have to produce the steel here? Why wouldn't we just keep buying cheaper steel from China or wherever and let the car manufacturers keep making cars at the current price? No point in boosting our steel industry (do we have one left) while shafting the car manufacturers at the same time.
		
Click to expand...

Because I am hearing a lot from the Brexit side that uses steel making as an example of where being in the EU has had a very detrimental effect on our steel industry - and where were we to leave the EU we could turn that industry around.  And we also hear how immigration controls will exclude the low skilled Eastern Europeans taking UK jobs - at depressed wages.  So no more Eastern Europeans - UK jobs for UK people - paid more than business and industry currently pays.  Costs go up - how can they not?


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful! He's allowed to throw insults but if you respond he'll edit your response. Abuse of position?
		
Click to expand...

Very interesting. A bit of research shows he likes to threaten violence too! Quality man! Still let him get his wee kicks. Bless.


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Genuine question with no agenda, what path are we taking now? And why do you see no future in it?
		
Click to expand...


We need to start making 'stuff' again... Not just warehouse it... Sticking with the current program won't see any changes to effect this... So, we need to change the program... Globalisation [hate that word] is great for business but a rough deal for working folk...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			We need to start making 'stuff' again... Not just warehouse it... Sticking with the current program won't see any changes to effect this... So, we need to change the program... Globalisation [hate that word] is great for business but a rough deal for working folk...
		
Click to expand...

It's also carp for the exploited workers overseas who make the cheap stuff we so crave and buy from the likes of Primark - as well as more 'quality' outlets - and then chuck as it's so cheap.  Almost not worth spending the money machine washing t-shirts that cost Â£1.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





Del_Boy said:



			That's my reason for staying as no one has got a scubby what the impact will be if we leave.

Bit like someone rings me up and says I've got this great job for you at Company X only snag I'll tell you when you start what you are doing or how much you'll get paid.  Would I leave my current role even if it was crap for this.  Unlikely.
		
Click to expand...

I dont think thats a good analogy.   A better one would be if a Friend rang you up and said I am starting a new business, how would you like to come and join me so that we could make our own way rather than be minions in the current outfit that seems to be losing it's way.
		
Click to expand...

Actually, BOTH have certain merits (and deficiencies) as analogies imo!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

Boris (just not) Gudonov today

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...oris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee

It might be funny - if he were not pretending that it were true and is quite possibly our next Prime Minister

So for example he cites EU legislation banning under 8yr olds from blowing up balloons, which would indeed be frankly ludicrous - were it true - which in the world of BoJo it is - as it would be for anyone listening to him who might hang on his every word as truth.

But the truth is that the EU legislation is that packets of balloons should be sold with a sticker warning of the dangers of unsupervised under 8s blowing up balloons - which is not so ludicrous at all - and actually rather sensible.  And there was more, much more...so that even a senior Tory MP on the committee got absolutely fed up with his waffle and disingenousness.

But in BoJo's world let's not worry about the truth of the matter - let's just exaggerate or indeed just make stuff up.  This is quite possibly a future PM - and the leader of the Brexit campaign.  He is a dissembling rogue.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2016)

I find it amusing that institutions such as the CBI, OBR and MSM that were quoted to death as 'untouchable experts' in the Scottish referendum are now being rubbished to death in the EU referendum.


----------



## jp5 (Mar 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Boris (just not) Gudonov today

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...oris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee

It might be funny - if he were not pretending that it were true and is quite possibly our next Prime Minister

So for example he cites EU legislation banning under 8yr olds from blowing up balloons, which would indeed be frankly ludicrous - were it true - which in the world of BoJo it is - as it would be for anyone listening to him who might hang on his every word as truth.

But the truth is that the EU legislation is that packets of balloons should be sold with a sticker warning of the dangers of unsupervised under 8s blowing up balloons - which is not so ludicrous at all - and actually rather sensible.  And there was more, much more...so that even a senior Tory MP on the committee got absolutely fed up with his waffle and disingenousness.

But in BoJo's world let's not worry about the truth of the matter - let's just *exaggerate or indeed just make stuff up*.  This is quite possibly a future PM - and the leader of the Brexit campaign.  He is a dissembling rogue.
		
Click to expand...

Slightly ironic 

Worth a watch on iPlayer instead of relying on the Guardian testimony. Though I expect you have made your mind up already.

Thought the pro-remain committee members' questioning was as poor as you make out Johnson's responses to be. Only difference was that the chair was happy to reprimand BJ but not his own committee members for interrupting each other!


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Boris (just not) Gudonov today

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...oris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee

It might be funny - if he were not pretending that it were true and is quite possibly our next Prime Minister

So for example he cites EU legislation banning under 8yr olds from blowing up balloons, which would indeed be frankly ludicrous - were it true - which in the world of BoJo it is - as it would be for anyone listening to him who might hang on his every word as truth.

But the truth is that the EU legislation is that packets of balloons should be sold with a sticker warning of the dangers of unsupervised under 8s blowing up balloons - which is not so ludicrous at all - and actually rather sensible.  And there was more, much more...so that even a senior Tory MP on the committee got absolutely fed up with his waffle and disingenousness.

But in BoJo's world let's not worry about the truth of the matter - let's just exaggerate or indeed just make stuff up.  This is quite possibly a future PM - and the leader of the Brexit campaign.  He is a dissembling rogue.
		
Click to expand...

If a parent needs a warning notice then their ability to be a parent is in doubt.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If a parent needs a warning notice then their ability to be a parent is in doubt.
		
Click to expand...

Really? So we just don't bother with any warnings about such things...that's the answer - the EU meddling.  In this sort of thing let the meddle.  

But no matter - you make the point as it diverts from BoJo's disingenuousness in such things - a disingenousness that is quite clear but that he doesn't care about because he says it with a confused and bemused smile, a laugh and a blustering guffaw.  But the lie is out there.  EU legislation to ban 8yr olds from blowing up balloons.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it amusing that institutions such as the CBI, OBR and MSM that were quoted to death as 'untouchable experts' in the Scottish referendum are now being rubbished to death in the EU referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Osbo has said in his Budget speech that the OBR has stated that the Uk would be worse off if we left the EU.    The OBR has denied this claim saying it has made no such forecast.   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35824624


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

Sir Richard Dearlove makes a pretty good argument to counter _Remain_ claims that leaving the EU would be detrimental to UK Security.  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ecurity-says-former-head-of-mi6-a6948841.html

Indeed he suggests that UK security out of the EU could be improved due to the potential for better immigration control and if we were to dump the European Convention on Human Rights (which lest we forget is nothing to do with the EU but is legislation under the Council of Europe - a completely separate body of 47 signatories including all of the EU) and so we could more easily deport whoever we wished.

I will add that I won't dismiss his views as simply being those of one individual - but will accept them as expert opinion from someone I would expect to understand such matters.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Osbo has said in his Budget speech that the OBR has stated that the Uk would be worse off if we left the EU.    The OBR has denied this claim saying it has made no such forecast.   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35824624

Click to expand...

No - but they included comments made by others as they themselves don't forecast on the assumption of UK having left...

_OBR chairman Robert Chote said: "But what we have also pointed out is that if you look at the things City economists and other economists are saying, if there were a vote to leave, then people expect a period of uncertainty while the new relationship with the EU 
is negotiated, and that could have implications for consumer and business confidence, and financial markets.

"So we cited other people's work on that, but we made no explicit judgement ourselves."_

I hope it would be reasonable for us to assume that the OBR would only include comments and forecasts of other reputable bodies or institutions.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2016)

Nigel has some views on the current Turkey arrangement.

[video=youtube;u-6VpOK2nOw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-6VpOK2nOw[/video]


----------



## daverollo (Mar 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sir Richard Dearlove makes a pretty good argument to counter _Remain_ claims that leaving the EU would be detrimental to UK Security.
		
Click to expand...

That seems a very rationale explanation to me.  It's also a pity that someone from the leave camp (Arron Banks) jumped at the opportunity to further the leave argument so soon after the Brussels attack, even though his point is still very valid. Disappointed with Dan Jarvis's response though, when does he think the time is right to have a mature and constructive debate?

You have to question the level of security services within the EU, Turkey deported one of the bombers last year (albeit back to the Netherlands) and warned them that he was a risk.  Clearly tracking him was not carried out.

I watched the Farage rant yesterday, loathe him as you may, he makes a passionate argument and you do have to wonder what the impact will be opening the border up to Turkey and it's population to have free movement across Europe is surely only going to add to the current migration/refugee issue that Europe is facing.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

daverollo said:



			That seems a very rationale explanation to me.  It's also a pity that someone from the leave camp (Arron Banks) jumped at the opportunity to further the leave argument so soon after the Brussels attack, even though his point is still very valid. Disappointed with Dan Jarvis's response though, when does he think the time is right to have a mature and constructive debate?

You have to question the level of security services within the EU, Turkey deported one of the bombers last year (albeit back to the Netherlands) and warned them that he was a risk.  Clearly tracking him was not carried out.

I watched the Farage rant yesterday, loathe him as you may, he makes a passionate argument and you do have to wonder what the impact will be opening the border up to Turkey and it's population to have free movement across Europe is surely only going to add to the current migration/refugee issue that Europe is facing.
		
Click to expand...

How I might respond to the very valid nature of Dearlove's argument would be by saying that UK security seems pretty darned good today in the context of the EU - and that the flaws being highlighted over such as Belgian internal security and intelligence can be sorted, and things tightened up bu EU security organisations working even more effectively together.  

So if we accept that the UK is at the top of the EU pile in respect of security and intelligence - would it not be better all round to work with the other EU countries to help them up to the UK level.  On our own the UK may be 'secure' - working bilaterally as required.   But even then the Achilles heel of UK security could be wherever is the weak point in European security.


----------



## daverollo (Mar 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How I might respond to the very valid nature of Dearlove's argument would be by saying that UK security seems pretty darned good today in the context of the EU - and that the flaws being highlighted over such as Belgian internal security and intelligence can be sorted, and things tightened up bu EU security organisations working even more effectively together.  

So if we accept that the UK is at the top of the EU pile in respect of security and intelligence - would it not be better all round to work with the other EU countries to help them up to the UK level.  On our own the UK may be 'secure' - working bilaterally as required.   But even then the Achilles heel of UK security could be wherever is the weak point in European security.
		
Click to expand...

It's a fair point, but security services should not be bound by being members of a particular club.  I am sure our security services work and share information with USA, Australia, Canada etc as well as other countries within the EU.  In fact we should look to assist where possible any allie.

As Sir Richard points out
_"If a security source in Germany learns that a terrorist attack is being planned in London, Germanyâ€™s domestic intelligence service is certainly not going to withhold the intelligence from MI5 simply because the UK is not an EU member.â€_


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

daverollo said:



			It's a fair point, but security services should not be bound by being members of a particular club.  I am sure our security services work and share information with USA, Australia, Canada etc as well as other countries within the EU.  In fact we should look to assist where possible any allie.

As Sir Richard points out
_"If a security source in Germany learns that a terrorist attack is being planned in London, Germanyâ€™s domestic intelligence service is certainly not going to withhold the intelligence from MI5 simply because the UK is not an EU member.â€_

Click to expand...

Information flow between UK and EU nations security and intelligence forces may not change - however joint activities addressing pan-European security, agreement of roles and responsibilities, and coordination of these when we are not 'in the club' may be a bit more complicated and prone to failure.  

Maybe it's a bit like having an OK football team that's played together pretty well for a good while and everyone knows everyone else's strengths and weaknesses - their best player leaves for greener pastures - rather pissing the rest off - but occasionally fancies a game with the 'old team' and comes knocking,  They can't really refuse but he's not part of the team any more - and fitting back in is never too easy - especially as he'll want the team to adjust their play to get the best out of his skills.  Petty squabbles, resentments, team doesn;t play so good trying to accommodate their ex-star, and things go wrong from time to time.

Yes that's simplistic - but a lot of the Pro and No arguments are rather so.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Information flow between UK and EU nations security and intelligence forces may not change - however joint activities addressing pan-European security, agreement of roles and responsibilities, and coordination of these when we are not 'in the club' may be a bit more complicated and prone to failure.  

Maybe it's a bit like having an OK football team that's played together pretty well for a good while and everyone knows everyone else's strengths and weaknesses - their best player leaves for greener pastures - rather pissing the rest off - but occasionally fancies a game with the 'old team' and comes knocking,  They can't really refuse but he's not part of the team any more - and fitting back in is never too easy - especially as he'll want the team to adjust their play to get the best out of his skills.  Petty squabbles, resentments, team doesn;t play so good trying to accommodate their ex-star, and things go wrong from time to time.

Yes that's simplistic - but a lot of the Pro and No arguments are rather so.
		
Click to expand...

Your analogy and argument sounds rather like grasping at straws.   Of course there would not be any downgrading of security cooperation between the Uk and EU members after Brexit.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your analogy and argument sounds rather like grasping at straws.   Of course there would not be any downgrading of security cooperation between the Uk and EU members after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not actually suggesting things will be any worse, and indeed I suggested my analogy may well be too simplistic.  

It just seems rather obvious to me that if you have a grouping with formal links beyond security and intelligence (as in the EU) then accommodating an 'outsider' whose interest is *only *security and intelligence may cause some issues in working together and sharing some aspects of intelligence. 

I'm thinking along lines of the simple fact that the UK and the EU nations will be competitors in many areas economic and commercial, and it is likely that the lines between economic/commercial and security/intelligence may get blurred from time to time, and when it does sharing aspects of intelligence and agreeing responsibilities etc may be problematic as the UK will be seen to have a conflict of interest.

On this specific matter I am actually finding myself rather more on the Dearlove side of the fence that I'd want to be.  But I guess that's what can happen if you take expert opinion seriously and don't just dismiss it if it doesn't fit with your own position.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not actually suggesting things will be any worse, and indeed I suggested my analogy may well be too simplistic.  

It just seems rather obvious to me that if you have a grouping with formal links beyond security and intelligence (as in the EU) then accommodating an 'outsider' whose interest is *only *security and intelligence may cause some issues in working together and sharing some aspects of intelligence. 

I'm thinking along lines of the simple fact that the UK and the EU nations will be competitors in many areas economic and commercial, and it is likely that the lines between economic/commercial and security/intelligence may get blurred from time to time, and when it does sharing aspects of intelligence and agreeing responsibilities etc may be problematic as the UK will be seen to have a conflict of interest.

On this specific matter I am actually finding myself rather more on the Dearlove side of the fence that I'd want to be.  But I guess that's what can happen if you take expert opinion seriously and don't just dismiss it if it doesn't fit with your own position.
		
Click to expand...

Countries in the EU trade without tariff but companies still compete for business.   That will be the same in or out


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Countries in the EU trade without tariff but companies still compete for business.   That will be the same in or out
		
Click to expand...

I was talking about security discussions and information sharing - and potential conflict of interest that could mean that some aspects of comemrcially sensitive but security related information might not be shared as fully as it might.  But in truth I doubt that it would be significant in any case,   

As it happens my feeling is that on the In/Out debate I'm not sure that security and Intelligence sharing is a decisive factor.   With UK in the EU, security and intell sharing are far from perfect, outside of the EU they will also be far from perfect.  Things could improve if UK stays in; UK could make things better out.  Immigration Control is I think much more of a societal and political issue than a security issue.  

Dumping the European Convention on Human Rights is not something I think we should do - and in the great scheme of things not being able to kick out the likes of Abu Hamza as it contravenes his human rights is I think generates noise than damage such as he actually does.  In fact I suspect that remaining signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights would be required of us as we negotiate access to the single market.


----------



## drdel (Mar 24, 2016)

The UK's security is better than continental Europe because of the Channel and despite the EU's desire to remove barriers.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really? So we just don't bother with any warnings about such things...that's the answer - the EU meddling.  In this sort of thing let the meddle.
		
Click to expand...

Are you really suggesting that the EU should spend time and money on legislation on putting warnings on packets of balloons.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Are you really suggesting that the EU should spend time and money on legislation on putting warnings on packets of balloons.
		
Click to expand...

Balloons as a choke factor can be very dangerous for small children, it is amazing how many parents are unaware of this.

http://www.marshallbrain.com/cp/balloons.htm


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2016)

Well it's good that the EU debate has reached the real vote turning subjects of finance , immigration , sovreignty and warning labels on Ballons !


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well it's good that the EU debate has reached the real vote turning subjects of finance , immigration , sovreignty and warning labels on Ballons !
		
Click to expand...

Would you rather that kids died from their parents ignorance ?.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would you rather that kids died from their parents ignorance ?.
		
Click to expand...

Behave yourself 

It doesn't take a label for any sensible human being to understand the dangers of swallowing a lot of stuff.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Behave yourself 

It doesn't take a label for any sensible human being to understand the dangers of swallowing a lot of stuff.
		
Click to expand...

And it's not a big deal if the EU thing it's worthwhile just having the warning.  We don't need the warning on fag packets to know it's not good for you - but the warning is there,  besides - the point was actually that BoJo was suggesting that the EU had banned under 8yr olds from blowing up balloons.  He was using that as an example of EU absurd meddling legislation, when in fact what he was saying was an untruth - being said for effect and to plant an idea in the mind of anyone listening to him and inclined to belief a word he says,


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Behave yourself 

It doesn't take a label for any sensible human being to understand the dangers of swallowing a lot of stuff.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.drgreene.com/dangers-balloons/

Seems a worthwhile idea too!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would you rather that kids died from their parents ignorance ?.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the parents should have a label


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Behave yourself 

It doesn't take a label for any sensible human being to understand the dangers of swallowing a lot of stuff.
		
Click to expand...

I was not talking about sensible parents.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2016)

And so pray tell - what do some have against manufacturers having to put a warning on a packet?  To some it might seem a bit unnecessary but no harm done to the manufacturer of said packets - just a few more words on the packet.  The real harm is where you get the likes of BoJo twisting and dissembling on this sort of EU measure to make it seem something that it absolutely isn't.  And when he is pulled up for it he laughs and with a bit of BoJo bluster he dismisses those critisising him and simply moves on - as if telling these wee porkies is OK and just a bit of fun.  Well you know  Boris - it's not OK.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so pray tell - what do some have against manufacturers having to put a warning on a packet?  To some it might seem a bit unnecessary but no harm done to the manufacturer of said packets - just a few more words on the packet.  The real harm is where you get the likes of BoJo twisting and dissembling on this sort of EU measure to make it seem something that it absolutely isn't.  And when he is pulled up for it he laughs and with a bit of BoJo bluster he dismisses those critisising him and simply moves on - as if telling these wee porkies is OK and just a bit of fun.  Well you know  Boris - it's not OK.
		
Click to expand...

Verily I sayeth unto thee that though shalt not putteth balloons up thine nose, in thine ear or up thine bum.   Though shalt not flicketh them at thine wife, thine mother of thine wife, thine child, thine neighbour or thine neighbours ass.   Any person found stuffing balloons with any substance such as blancmange, custard or any similar substance and then dropping such stuffed balloon from buildings, bridges, cliff tops or any other promontory in such a manner that it could cause distress or suffering to third parties; will be taken from this place to a place of confinement where they will manacled, hung, racked and their bits and pieces will be barbecued before them.    For a second offence the punishment shalt be a day trip with jeremy Corbyn.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Verily I sayeth unto thee that though shalt not putteth balloons up thine nose, in thine ear or up thine bum.   Though shalt not flicketh them at thine wife, thine mother of thine wife, thine child, thine neighbour or thine neighbours ass.   Any person found stuffing balloons with any substance such as blancmange, custard or any similar substance and then dropping such stuffed balloon from buildings, bridges, cliff tops or any other promontory in such a manner that it could cause distress or suffering to third parties; will be taken from this place to a place of confinement where they will manacled, hung, racked and their bits and pieces will be barbecued before them.    For a second offence the punishment shalt be a day trip with jeremy Corbyn.
		
Click to expand...

Good imitation of Blustering Boris there SR.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so pray tell - what do some have against manufacturers having to put a warning on a packet?  To some it might seem a bit unnecessary but no harm done to the manufacturer of said packets - just a few more words on the packet.  The real harm is where you get the likes of BoJo twisting and dissembling on this sort of EU measure to make it seem something that it absolutely isn't.  And when he is pulled up for it he laughs and with a bit of BoJo bluster he dismisses those critisising him and simply moves on - as if telling these wee porkies is OK and just a bit of fun.  Well you know  Boris - it's not OK.
		
Click to expand...

Im not suggesting that the warnings on packets aren't always a bad idea, I just think that the many millions the EU spend on putting it into legislation is a waste of my money. If your happy with them wasting your money then that's ok with me.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Im not suggesting that the warnings on packets aren't always a bad idea, I just think that the many millions the EU spend on putting it into legislation is a waste of my money. If your happy with them wasting your money then that's ok with me.
		
Click to expand...

So you think that spending a few million Euros to save children's lives is a waste of money.

Â£85,000,000.00 for Gareth Bale is probably OK though


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you think that spending a few million Euros to save children's lives is a waste of money.

Â£85,000,000.00 for Gareth Bale is probably OK though

Click to expand...

What does Gareth Bale have to do with anything ?!


----------



## daverollo (Mar 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you think that spending a few million Euros to save children's lives is a waste of money.

Â£85,000,000.00 for Gareth Bale is probably OK though

Click to expand...

How many lives have been saved as a result of the EU insisting on labels on balloons?

Didn't realise that Bale played for the EU - what a waste of a point.

The point is, balloon labelling is just one very small example of how the EU have created a giant monster to consider regulation and warnings on the most absurd things, spending millions in the process each and every year to justify their existence.

Genuinely - how many people on here actually read the warning labels on anything, apart from to have a laugh at the wording.  It's not about protecting humans, it has more to do with protecting companies from the litigious nature that society is becoming - all started by some muppet in the USA suing McDonalds for not telling them that the hot cup of coffee they just bought was hot.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Mar 25, 2016)

daverollo said:



			started by some muppet in the USA suing McDonalds for not telling them that the hot cup of coffee they just bought was hot.
		
Click to expand...

Ah that old chestnut. Of course the facts are quite a different matter. 

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts


----------



## 351DRIVER (Mar 25, 2016)

I would just like to see the Pound gain strength against the Euro.. my costs have risen effectively by 13% since December
COME ON THE POUND!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ah that old chestnut. Of course the facts are quite a different matter. 

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

Click to expand...

Good read, is this one of the advantages of your Missus being a lawyer?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Good read, is this one of the advantages of your Missus being a lawyer? 

Click to expand...

It is the same story with the wee lassie that was scarred for life by a dinner lady giving her a bowl of soup that was microwaved to a crazy temperature.

Cases like these highlight the need for a basic degree of care.
The ''Boris's' of this world need to grow up and start learning.

How many folk on here do not wear a seat belt ? 

Basic risk assessment is just the same as plain old common sense, we use it every time when approaching at a roundabout.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is the same story with the wee lassie that was scarred for life by a dinner lady giving her a bowl of soup that was microwaved to a crazy temperature.

Cases like these highlight the need for a basic degree of care.
The ''Boris's' of this world need to grow up and start learning.

How many folk on here do not wear a seat belt ? 

Basic risk assessment is just the same as plain old common sense, we use it every time when approaching at a roundabout.
		
Click to expand...

Who is a "Boris" ?

And I expect the majority 99.9% wear seat belts now


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you think that spending a few million Euros to save children's lives is a waste of money.

Â£85,000,000.00 for Gareth Bale is probably OK though

Click to expand...

If your the kind of guy that needs notices because you don't have the sence to spot it yourself you obviously need all the help available . Please take care while crossing the road, it's mayhem out there.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many folk on here do not wear a seat belt ? 
.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know, do tell. Please be careful when using the hot tap when you wash your hands, the water is ---------- hot.


----------



## Father_Ted (Mar 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Nigel has some views on the current Turkey arrangement.

[video=youtube;u-6VpOK2nOw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-6VpOK2nOw[/video]
		
Click to expand...

don't normally agree with many of his views but its great to see him pointing out some of the issues with turkeys possible membership which i dont believe should or will happen

only marginally related to the subject of the debate and he seemed rather unprepared for the debate-related question at the end

sending boats back was a pr exercise in australia and was not as successful as the media published

it would be even more difficult to police in the med

helping to stop the need to become refugees in the first place is a better idea imo but also hugely difficult


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If your the kind of guy that needs notices because you don't have the sence to spot it yourself you obviously need all the help available . Please take care while crossing the road, it's mayhem out there.
		
Click to expand...

I don't need them but there seems to be at least a couple on here who clearly do.

99.9%...that is good because when the seat belt laws first came in many 'nanny state' thinkers were unconvinced of the need.

BTW my Scottish fitba blog vote is standing at 81% stay 19% leave. Feels about right


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If your the kind of guy that needs notices because you don't have the sence to spot it yourself you obviously need all the help available . Please take care while crossing the road, it's mayhem out there.
		
Click to expand...

I guessing then that you are of the sort who will think that carrying out and publishing risk assessments and mitigations/guidance for players for each hole on your course is a waste of time.  Nanny stateism and elf and safety gone mad.  And yes - my club has one.  And we have appropriate guidance and warning notices at the tees on higher risk holes.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

UK.And thinking on security mattes and whether leaving the EU would reduce the risk of terrorist atrocity in the EU.  Not sure how greater control of our borders will help.  Many terrorists are unknown to security agencies - and so could just be visiting the UK for a holiday.  That they are telling a fib and might get found out and thrown out of UK is hardly going to worry a suicide bomber coming to UK to do his worst using a device made in the UK by sympathisers.  So what real security benefit even greater control - if that can ever come about if we wish access to the single market - which is very debatable.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I guessing then that you are of the sort who will think that carrying out and publishing risk assessments and mitigations/guidance for players for each hole on your course is a waste of time.  Nanny stateism and elf and safety gone mad.  And yes - my club has one.  And we have appropriate guidance and warning notices at the tees on higher risk holes.
		
Click to expand...

Best not to guess then as that's not what I said.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UK.And thinking on security mattes and whether leaving the EU would reduce the risk of terrorist atrocity in the EU.  Not sure how greater control of our borders will help.  Many terrorists are unknown to security agencies - and so could just be visiting the UK for a holiday.  That they are telling a fib and might get found out and thrown out of UK is hardly going to worry a suicide bomber coming to UK to do his worst using a device made in the UK by sympathisers.  So what real security benefit even greater control - if that can ever come about if we wish access to the single market - which is very debatable.
		
Click to expand...

Did anyone actually say that Brexit would reduce the risk of a terrorist atrocity in the EU 

Please explain how open borders can reduce the chance of a terrorist atrocity?


----------



## MarkE (Mar 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW my Scottish fitba blog vote is standing at 81% stay 19% leave. Feels about right
		
Click to expand...

Maybe in Scotland. http://whatukthinks.org/eu/?gclid=CLbRmaCA38sCFYIW0wodTSgKdQ


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35901811


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did anyone actually say that Brexit would reduce the risk of a terrorist atrocity in the EU 

Please explain how open borders can reduce the chance of a terrorist atrocity?
		
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting that closed borders won't reduce probability of a terrorist attack much if at all.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35901811

Click to expand...

Fair enough - and not at all surprising - though I quote from the article 




			The pro-Brexit camp has striven to counter the impression that most big companies prefer to remain in the EU. A third of FTSE 100 bosses publicly supported staying in last month.

But there are no current FTSE 100 chief executives or chairmen and only 13 out of the 250 signatories are women - including Sir Rocco Forte's sister Olga and his niece Alex Polizzi.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

Interesting comment piece  by Matthew Parris in the Times today -total hatchet job on BoJo - demolishing him as a serious politician who should be exposed asap by the Tories as the unprincipled, dishonest and bluffing dissembler that he is - and one with not a serious political achievement to his name - either as London mayor or an MP. #NoGoBoJo


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35901811

Click to expand...

While it's possible to create whatever one might wish from virtually any group of 100 or 250 folk, I'd not put my faith in anyone who had anything to do with running Equitable Life, and I wonder how much I should really consider the view of 'Pasha Khandaker, president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association' as particularly relevant!

I think the 36 of the FTSE 100 heads who signed the letter saying staying was better for their businesses - compared with zero who have come out as saying leaving will be better for theirs - carry a little more weight than the those that have been listed. And remember, this list has been created by the 'Leave' campaign, so may contain some who would prefer not to have been so identified!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			While it's possible to create whatever one might wish from virtually any group of 100 or 250 folk, I'd not put my faith in anyone who had anything to do with running Equitable Life, and I wonder how much I should really consider the view of 'Pasha Khandaker, president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association' as particularly relevant!

I think the 36 of the FTSE 100 heads who signed the letter saying staying was better for their businesses - compared with zero who have come out as saying leaving will be better for theirs - carry a little more weight than the those that have been listed. And remember, this list has been created by the 'Leave' campaign, so may contain some who would prefer not to have been so identified!
		
Click to expand...

As you say the article observes




			But Britain Stronger in Europe said Vote Leave could not find a business to officially back it, as those listed supported it in a "personal capacity".
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As you say the article observes
		
Click to expand...

Ever heard of JCB?


----------



## JohnnyDee (Mar 27, 2016)

It's interesting watching Sky News presenters (don't blame me HiD likes it) every time the referendum is mentioned in general discussion or in a newspaper review.

Nearly all to a (wo)man seem to be finding it almost impossible not to hint that the Brexit position is the one to take.

If you didn't know better you'd almost think that some Svengali-like media mogul was behind the scenes manipulating the agenda.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2016)




----------



## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ever heard of JCB?
		
Click to expand...

Family owned company, so doesn't fall into the same category as those who signed up to the 'Stay' letter.

Not surprised at all that Lord Bamford's prefererence is for Brexit. Probably the epitome of single-mindedness and the idea of creating success through individual effort - values that would be core for a successful Brexit, but can also result in selfish isolation!


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			...And remember, this list has been created by the 'Leave' campaign, so may contain some who would prefer not to have been so identified!
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35906110

Yep! There it goes!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Best not to guess then as that's not what I said.
		
Click to expand...

No indeed - what you said was 




			If your the kind of guy that needs notices because you don't have the sence to spot it yourself you obviously need all the help available . Please take care while crossing the road, it's mayhem out there.
		
Click to expand...

So I am guessing you might think that have health and safety notices around a golf course imply that players don't have the sense to spot the risks themselves.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ever heard of JCB?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - I used to work for him

So that'll be one - unless of course it was the boss of JCB giving his personal opinion rather than that of the company board.  Mind you as it's family owned the boards view will be the owners view.  

So looking beyond family or other privately owned businesses.  Who do Brexit have on their side?  I am sure they must have some listed companies of the Brexit view


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I used to work for him

So that'll be one - unless of course it was the boss of JCB giving his personal opinion rather than that of the company board.  Mind you as it's family owned the boards view will be the owners view.  

So looking beyond family or other privately owned businesses.  Who do Brexit have on their side?  I am sure they must have some listed companies of the Brexit view
		
Click to expand...

To be honest I am not that interested in what businesses are in favor or not, they all have their own agendas and that will not always be what is best for many of us.  Some like the way the EU gives them an unlimited supply of cheap labour, their will be all manner of reasons why some will want to stay and others not.   Its possible for any of us to dig around for bits to support our personal preferences but ultimately for most people it's about a gut instinct on whats important to you.   For me it's National self determination above anything else.   If we are better off or not I want it to be ourselves that make the decisions that bring that about.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			..For me it's National self determination above anything else.   If we are better off or not I want it to be ourselves that make the decisions that bring that about.
		
Click to expand...

This 'self determination' really seems something of an aspirational myth!

Because UK is now no longer the 'power' it used to be, it is very much 'at the mercy' of decisions made by both other countries and individual companies!

And those that make the decisions are rarely, if ever, making them on behalf of anywhere near 50% of the voting population - and that only covers their manifestos, let alone issues that arise later or are were excluded from specific manifesto declarations!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			This 'self determination' really seems something of an aspirational myth!

Because UK is now no longer the 'power' it used to be, it is very much 'at the mercy' of decisions made by both other countries and individual companies!

And those that make the decisions are rarely, if ever, making them on behalf of anywhere near 50% of the voting population - and that only covers their manifestos, let alone issues that arise later or are were excluded from specific manifesto declarations!
		
Click to expand...

Not 'The Power' it used to be'  when are you talking about, 10. 20. 50, 100 years ago.  Maybe you mean before we were in the EU in which case it's not doing us much good.   Why do you go on about 'Power'  what kind of power do you think we should have (I take it you are one of us when asking that?)   The UK is IMO still a very influential country in the World


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not 'The Power' it used to be'  when are you talking about, 10. 20. 50, 100 years ago.  Maybe you mean before we were in the EU in which case it's not doing us much good.   Why do you go on about 'Power'  what kind of power do you think we should have (I take it you are one of us when asking that?)   The UK is IMO still a very influential country in the World
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that membership of the EU (or EEC before it) is related to the decline of the 'power' (aka 'influence') of UK, merely coincident recent events. And yes, all those periods. I'm not overly concerned as to whether a country has particular power/influence, simply noting the changes and reflecting on whether particular decisions would alter that power/influence, so it matters little as to whether I am 'one of us' or not - except perhaps my 'independence' may (or may not) have give me a less narrow-minded view!


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 27, 2016)

If I was those on the leave note that was published http://news.sky.com/story/1667598/vote-leave-apologises-over-wrong-names-on-list and I wasn't supporting it I'd me wanting to know how my name got there and want more than apology. In theory it could have a knock on affect to the business


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe that membership of the EU (or EEC before it) is related to the decline of the 'power' (aka 'influence') of UK, merely coincident recent events. And yes, all those periods. I'm not overly concerned as to whether a country has particular power/influence, simply noting the changes and reflecting on whether particular decisions would alter that power/influence, so it matters little as to whether I am 'one of us' or not - except perhaps my 'independence' may (or may not) have give me a less narrow-minded view!
		
Click to expand...

But you keep rattling on about how we would lose power out of the EU, how does that work?    We are one of 28 when 'In'  and are regulated on many issues as a voice among many, a voice that is vastly outnumbered on many issues.

We are a permanent member of the UN  Security Council, A G8 member, The 5th largest economy in the World, One of the main members of Nato, a Nation with a great trading history and so on and so forth.   What kind of additional 'Power' is it you expect from us?     Whinging Poms are nothing on you, maybe it's time to stop biting the hand that feeds you or if you really do have such a low opinion of this fantastic country then move on to pastures new.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2016)

Good old UKIP, they are always good for a laugh.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good old UKIP, they are always good for a laugh.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks

Click to expand...

I dont believe they are against immigration but for controlled immigration.  That article is scraping the barrel for a story.  Bit like you really


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Whinging Poms are nothing on you, maybe it's time to stop biting the hand that feeds you or if you really do have such a low opinion of this fantastic country then move on to pastures new.  

Click to expand...

I've lived here most of my adult (certainly working) life! And I don't believe I'm whingeing at all - simply responding to your points. This statement really is beneath contempt! The earlier one is simply blinkered!


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I've lived here most of my adult (certainly working) life! And I don't believe I'm whingeing at all - simply responding to your points. This statement really is beneath contempt! The earlier one is simply blinkered!
		
Click to expand...

You keep knocking on about how the UK is not what it was and has lost power and influence in the World, you suggest we will be even worse if we exit the EU but seem light on explaining why.  You also have this strange habit of stalking my every post on whatever subject.  Bit odd really!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2016)

Great to see on this day that the Royals are thinking of coming out on the correct side. 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...mily-considering-dramatic-brexit-intervention


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2016)

I also noticed in the news that an SNP member is standing for London Mayor.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I also noticed in the news that an SNP member is standing for London Mayor.
		
Click to expand...

I've suggested to a local Tory cooncillor I am acquainted with that if DC decides to stand down on a Brexit then he should suggest to Scottish Tory leadership that wee RuthieD should put herself forward as leader of the TP - to me she's a lot more acceptable than the Tory alternatives (never mind the frankly unbelievable BoJo).  

As it happens, and despite my left of centre views, I hope DC does not stand down as PM if a Brexit is what happens - IMO better to have him in charge of the ensuing chaos than the alternatives - except feisty Ruthie that is...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've suggested to a local Tory cooncillor I am acquainted with that if DC decides to stand down on a Brexit then he should suggest to Scottish Tory leadership that wee RuthieD should put herself forward as leader of the TP - to me she's a lot more acceptable than the Tory alternatives (never mind the frankly unbelievable BoJo).  

As it happens, and despite my left of centre views, I hope DC does not stand down as PM if a Brexit is what happens - IMO better to have him in charge of the ensuing chaos than the alternatives - except feisty Ruthie that is...
		
Click to expand...

Ruthie is OK but gets slaughtered by Sturgeon at FMQT. 
She is trying to defend the indefensible[ie UK Tory policy]so is in a bit of a no win situation.
Under pressure she occasionally lets the red mist rise and loses the plot. 

She is still a much better candidate for UK Tory leader than any of those amateurs south of Preston.


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I also noticed in the news that an SNP member is standing for London Mayor.
		
Click to expand...


Would like to hear said candidate explaining Salmond's desire to punish hard working Londoners...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 1, 2016)

I heard David Cameron on the radio yesterday saying that we needed to be in the EU to solve problems like those facing the British steel industry. And now it turns out that we were one of 14 countries that blocked an EU plan to impose higher tariffs on Chinese imports. The man is a clown, and that's coming from someone who voted Tory at the last election.


----------



## chippa1909 (Apr 1, 2016)

He's not a clown. He's a Tory. They do these things for their own ends.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I heard David Cameron on the radio yesterday saying that we needed to be in the EU to solve problems like those facing the British steel industry. And now it turns out that we were one of 14 countries that blocked an EU plan to impose higher tariffs on Chinese imports. The man is a clown, and that's coming from someone who voted Tory at the last election.
		
Click to expand...

I guess I will always be a Tory but I have started to despise Cameron.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Would like to hear said candidate explaining Salmond's desire to punish hard working Londoners...
		
Click to expand...

That would be the London where someone doing exactly the same job as someone else in the rUK is awarded a higher hourly minimum wage rate.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That would be the London where someone doing exactly the same job as someone else in the rUK is awarded a higher hourly minimum wage rate.
		
Click to expand...

I can't possibly comment on the weighting allowance paid to our employees in Aberdeen... Sorry Doon but that chip on your shoulder just fell off...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I can't possibly comment on the weighting allowance paid to our employees in Aberdeen... Sorry Doon but that chip on your shoulder just fell off...
		
Click to expand...

Two or three companies in Aberdeen against tens of thousands in London, sound argument


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two or three companies in Aberdeen against tens of thousands in London, sound argument 

Click to expand...

Hahahaha.... Really?! It's market forces Doon. If any company wants the best, they have to pay the best... Two or three companies my ..... I'm in the middle of recruiting, interviews Tuesday if you're free, and I know exactly what the going rate is up here compared to the recruiting I've done in Manchester, Birmingham, Dublin and London for engineers, admin staff and managers.

You're miles off on this one Doon.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I can't possibly comment on the weighting allowance paid to our employees in Aberdeen... Sorry Doon but that chip on your shoulder just fell off...
		
Click to expand...

That's a bit unfair - think he is balanced 


Chip on both shoulders


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's a bit unfair - think he is balanced 


Chip on both shoulders
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two or three companies in Aberdeen against tens of thousands in London, sound argument 

Click to expand...

Surely the ratio is similar to that in England?


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2016)

So Cameron wanted to stick to the EU Procurement rules and gets slated for it, some EU country realize that sticking to the rules will affect their steel industry so now want to change the rules.

Seems that the rules need changing rather than started ad hoc sanctions on country's that take advantage.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 2, 2016)

I have come across the following website which looks like it provides a lot of good information about the EU and the referendum. Some of you might find it interesting.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/

I haven't had time to digest much of it so can't comment on the veracity of this, however they claim:

_The UK in a Changing Europe Initiative promotes rigorous, high-quality and independent research into the complex and ever changing relationship between the UK and the European Union (EU).

It provides an authoritative, non-partisan and impartial reference point for those looking for information, insights and analysis about UK-EU relations that stands aside from the politics surrounding the debate.

The Initiativeâ€™s work is tailored to be easily accessible to policy makers, businesses, journalists, civil society organisations, educational institutions and the general public who are interested in the UKâ€™s relationship with the EU.

Funded by the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC), and based at Kingâ€™s College London, the Initiative will explore the key aspects of UK and EU dynamics, including:

* Impact of EU policies: how EU policies make a difference in areas such as, the single market, financial regulation, trade, investment, growth and the free movement of people
* Attitudes towards the EU: social and political attitudes, the nature of euroscepticism, generational differences, the mediaâ€™s role
* A Changing UK in a Changing EU: differences in public opinion in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales; implications of constitutional changes in the UK and implications of British exit for different parts of the UK._


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahaha.... Really?! It's market forces Doon. If any company wants the best, they have to pay the best... Two or three companies my ..... I'm in the middle of recruiting, interviews Tuesday if you're free, and I know exactly what the going rate is up here compared to the recruiting I've done in Manchester, Birmingham, Dublin and London for engineers, admin staff and managers.

You're miles off on this one Doon.
		
Click to expand...

The discussion was about the minimum wage.
Not much to do with market forces in London, where I am told that 20% of under 21 year olds are unemployed.

I see eeny and meeny jumped onto your same error......no change there then.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The discussion was about the minimum wage.
Not much to do with market forces in London, where I am told that 20% of under 21 year olds are unemployed.

I see eeny and meeny jumped onto your same error......no change there then.
		
Click to expand...

Youth unemployment in the UK is around 13% down from 16% a year ago.    Who told you it was 20%?


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The discussion was about the minimum wage.
Not much to do with market forces in London, where I am told that 20% of under 21 year olds are unemployed.

I see eeny and meeny jumped onto your same error......no change there then.
		
Click to expand...


Is that the best you can come up with? Your post was, at best, superficial. Why don't you ave a look at the second most expensive city to live in in the UK, Aberdeen, and research the wages paid there.

As usual, you've made yourself look like a right Richard with your biased, England 'v' Scotland, bile.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Youth unemployment in the UK is around 13% down from 16% a year ago.    Who told you it was 20%?
		
Click to expand...

I read a report in the Telegraph


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the best you can come up with? Your post was, at best, superficial. Why don't you ave a look at the second most expensive city to live in in the UK, Aberdeen, and research the wages paid there.

As usual, you've made yourself look like a right Richard with your biased, England 'v' Scotland, bile.
		
Click to expand...

Lose the argument so add insults, disappointed in you.

The commercial argument for a higher compulsory minimum wage in London fails when you see their young  unemployed levels.
Market forces excuse does not apply.


----------



## Del_Boy (Apr 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I read a report in the Telegraph
		
Click to expand...


http://www.londonspovertyprofile.or...klessness/young-adult-unemployment-over-time/

here it it says youth unemployment is the same in London and the rest of the U.K.  Who is right?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I read a report in the Telegraph
		
Click to expand...

Please can you show some evidence that backs that up as I cant find anything that supports that figure.

If you want to see some shocking youth unemployment statistics then take a look at other EU countries, many of them have eye watering rates.    Not a great reason to stay in the EU crazy club.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2016)

Current/Short term situation should not be a consideration for this issue!

UK's economy has traditionally been quicker to 'react'  (in whichever direction) to world events/economy/sentiment! This sort of phenomenon is unlikely to change irrespective of whether UK is in or out of the EU.

Likewise, statistics about other countries are somewhat irrelevant if they are within 'traditional' range for the particular country - as the 'culture' of the particular country is unique to that country. Of course, there are limits to what is 'sensible'. But (and it's a 'failing' of EU imo -  though there's no simple solution) most EU countries, including UK, have breached, and pretty much ignored the breach, those limits.


----------



## Fish (Apr 14, 2016)




----------



## Fish (Apr 14, 2016)

Corbyns losing the plot, or just confirming to us he lost it ages ago..

http://capx.co/corbyns-contorted-case-for-remain/


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Youth unemployment in the UK is around 13% down from 16% a year ago.    Who told you it was 20%?
		
Click to expand...

So why do we need a load of immigrants to fill the lower paid jobs? Are these jobs below British citizens?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2016)

drive4show said:



			So why do we need a load of immigrants to fill the lower paid jobs? Are these jobs below British citizens?
		
Click to expand...

They think they are but a policy of 'Work' if you are capable or get nothing would soon sort it out.   A bit like the policy in the countries most immigrants come from.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

And so following hot on the heels of President Obama and the IMF - we have the latest members of the 'to be ignored' Scaremongering Club - the French Minister of the Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs and The Treasury telling us the difference between staying and leaving.  But what do they know...

Ah - but Chris Graying tells that everything will be fine because Avon Cosmetics are moving their World HQ to the UK (well they are closing down in the US so they've got to go somewhere - and will they still come here if we leave?).  Now this has been known for a month - so was CG just keeping it up his sleeve as a 'trump' card to be played against the IMF and the Treasury.  Well he's played it now.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Treasury telling us the difference between staying and leaving.  But what do they know...
		
Click to expand...

The bizarre thing is that just a couple of months ago, we were told that the Government was prepared to recommend to leave if the negotiated deal was not sufficient.

By anyone's account the negotiation didn't achieve much, and now the same Government is professing what a disaster it would be if we were to leave.

Something doesn't add up...


----------



## ger147 (Apr 18, 2016)

jp5 said:



			The bizarre thing is that just a couple of months ago, we were told that the Government was prepared to recommend to leave if the negotiated deal was not sufficient.

By anyone's account the negotiation didn't achieve much, and now the same Government is professing what a disaster it would be if we were to leave.

Something doesn't add up...
		
Click to expand...

Nothing adds up at the Treasury...


----------



## philly169 (Apr 18, 2016)

There does seem to be a desperate plea by the Government to stay in the EU, maybe there is a swing to leave.

IMO, the likelihood is we vote to leave, then EU then offers better terms, we stay in.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 18, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Nothing adds up at the Treasury...
		
Click to expand...

Very good 

It's a little ridiculous how Osborne's team can predict next decade's GDP when they can't even hit their own predictions year on year!

Also very disingenuous to express the change in GDP in terms of household costs.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 18, 2016)

philly169 said:



			IMO, the likelihood is we vote to leave, then EU then offers better terms, we stay in.
		
Click to expand...

I can't see it personally. Think whatever the result, that will be it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2016)

philly169 said:



			There does seem to be a desperate plea by the Government to stay in the EU, maybe there is a swing to leave.

IMO, the likelihood is we vote to leave, then EU then offers better terms, we stay in.
		
Click to expand...

I do not think that is the case......it is a straight in-oot vote.
If the UK voted leave do you really think we matter that much to rEurope that they will come begging.
On the other hand do you think that the likes of Farage/Galloway/Grayling would re-negotiate to stay.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I can't see it personally. Think whatever the result, that will be it.
		
Click to expand...

I think that that's going to be how it is.


----------



## ger147 (Apr 18, 2016)

philly169 said:



			There does seem to be a desperate plea by the Government to stay in the EU, maybe there is a swing to leave.

IMO, the likelihood is we vote to leave, then EU then offers better terms, we stay in.
		
Click to expand...

No change according to the latest polls and still too close to call...

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

And as far as exports between the US and the UK - and the Brexit claim that there won't be any issues negotiating favourable trade agreements with the USA because the US needs the UK as much as the UK needs the US.  Well let's look at the percentages.

USA to UK - 3.7% of USA exports go the UK
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html

UK to USA - 17% of UK exports go to the North America
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-exports/

I don't see USA and UK having equal exporting needs of the other in these figures.  Clearly the UK needs the USA market much more than they need us.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

In response to the Treasury report - which he dismissed as unlikely to be accurate in any case - John Redwood (on Jeremy Vine) has just told listeners that there is no point in _Brexit _coming up with a counter report because no-one believes these things anyway.  

So we're just expected to believe the _Brexit _suppositions and assertions - with no detailed analysis to support claims such as that which Redwood just made - saying that the UK would be able to come out of austerity measures if we left as we'd have so much money to spend.  As Boris would say - 'knickers'.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Current/Short term situation should not be a consideration for this issue!

UK's economy has traditionally been quicker to 'react'  (in whichever direction) to world events/economy/sentiment! This sort of phenomenon is unlikely to change irrespective of whether UK is in or out of the EU.

Likewise, statistics about other countries are somewhat irrelevant if they are within 'traditional' range for the particular country - as the 'culture' of the particular country is unique to that country. Of course, there are limits to what is 'sensible'. *But (and it's a 'failing' of EU imo -  though there's no simple solution) most EU countries, including UK, have breached, and pretty much ignored the breach, those limits*.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking to a few accountants who deal in international tax matters they say one big issue is that in general, the UK does tend to play by the rules once it joins an organisation such as the EU.  Where as most other countries pick and chose what things they adhere to.  Which is why we tend to get more of the silly stories about the EU making bananas straight or whatever they claim. Where as other countries just ignore it and carry on as they were.

And if we stayed in and kind of took the same attitude to some of the directives like say France do then it would be a lot better.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If the UK voted leave do you really think we matter that much to rEurope that they will come begging.
		
Click to expand...

Well all the indication from Germany is that it does matter to them. They feel it's a house of cards that won't take much to bring down.

I would immediately vote in if the PM stated there would be an immediate deduction of 400 MPs as there is so little with devolution and the EU that is left for them to do.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Speaking to a few accountants who deal in international tax matters they say one big issue is that in general, the UK does tend to play by the rules once it joins an organisation such as the EU.  Where as most other countries pick and chose what things they adhere to.  Which is why we tend to get more of the silly stories about the EU making bananas straight or whatever they claim. Where as other countries just ignore it and carry on as they were.

And if we stayed in and kind of took the same attitude to some of the directives like say France do then it would be a lot better.
		
Click to expand...

Aye - adhere to the spirit of the regulations rather than to ever dot and cross, treating the dot and cross as a guideline and not an absolute.  But that approach never really suited the 'anti-Europe' agenda.  Much better to do things straight down the line and point out the costs and absurdities (mostly inconsequential).  And so these pigeons are coming home to roost.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 18, 2016)

I've just had a look at  the equation the government has has released to help us plebs to understand why leaving the eu is a bad idea. http://home.bt.com/news/news-extra/...to-justify-remaining-in-the-eu-11364052656113
Well, i'm convinced.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 18, 2016)

Maybe this one will work. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/18/can-you-solve-this-treasury-brexit-maths-problem/


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Maybe this one will work. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/18/can-you-solve-this-treasury-brexit-maths-problem/

Click to expand...

Looks a pretty straightforward approach to modelling the impact

The most important figures from this sort of analysis are the uncertainty and significance levels - without these it's not really possible to tell much about the Â£4300 or Â£6600 figures.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 18, 2016)

Did anyone else see that the leave campaign didn't register the website www.voteleave.co.uk and it has been "Rickrolled" by a Belgian pro-EU campaigner and now takes you to a You Tube video of Risk Astley singing Never Gonna Give You Up? Or as I like to think "Never Gonna Give EU Up".

I think that the polls will stay fairly close right up to polling day and then we could get a "surprise" result of 55% + voting to stay in the EU. Similar to what happened with the Scottish referendum with people deciding on the day that it is better the devil you know rather than taking that step into the unknown and voting to leave.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Did anyone else see that the leave campaign didn't register the website www.voteleave.co.uk and it has been "Rickrolled" by a Belgian pro-EU campaigner and now takes you to a You Tube video of Risk Astley singing Never Gonna Give You Up? Or as I like to think "Never Gonna Give EU Up".

I think that the polls will stay fairly close right up to polling day and then we could get a "surprise" result of 55% + voting to stay in the EU. Similar to what happened with the Scottish referendum with people deciding on the day that it is better the devil you know rather than taking that step into the unknown and voting to leave.
		
Click to expand...

My fear is that if things look tight _Leave_ will play the immigration card a lot as they know this chimes with many.  Only today I heard a _Brexiteer _talk of 350,000 immigrants a year coming to the UK.  

This is remarkably similar to the figure that exactly 2yrs ago the ONS said immigration was underestimated by for the decade 2001-2011.  And so my suspicion is that the figure for a decade has been picked up and misinterpreted or misunderstood - and now it becomes a year-on-year prediction.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014...cs-underestimated-total-by-350000-in-a-decade

Thinking on the Pope's suggestion of every parish taking a family (10,000 parishes x 1 family = 50,000 a year) - if every town in UK having a population of more than 20,000 took 10 Syrian families a year - we could settle 25,000 Syrians a year (there are about 500 such towns and cities in the UK)

The total number sounds large but when you break it down in to what it might mean...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2016)

Ian Botham supporting the 'ooters' seems to think that England is an island.
Does he vote for the Kippers, perhaps that may explain it?


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ian Botham supporting the 'ooters' seems to think that England is an island.
Does he vote for the Kippers, perhaps that may explain it?
		
Click to expand...

Love to be there when you ask him.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ian Botham supporting the 'ooters' seems to think that England is an island.
Does he vote for the Kippers, perhaps that may explain it?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should ask him ?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe you should ask him ?
		
Click to expand...


Great minds think alike and.........


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My fear is that if things look tight _Leave_ will play the immigration card a lot as they know this chimes with many.  Only today I heard a _Brexiteer _talk of 350,000 immigrants a year coming to the UK.  

This is remarkably similar to the figure that exactly 2yrs ago the ONS said immigration was underestimated by for the decade 2001-2011.  And so my suspicion is that the figure for a decade has been picked up and misinterpreted or misunderstood - and now it becomes a year-on-year prediction.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014...cs-underestimated-total-by-350000-in-a-decade

Thinking on the Pope's suggestion of every parish taking a family (10,000 parishes x 1 family = 50,000 a year) - if every town in UK having a population of more than 20,000 took 10 Syrian families a year - we could settle 25,000 Syrians a year (there are about 500 such towns and cities in the UK)

The total number sounds large but when you break it down in to what it might mean...
		
Click to expand...

The ONS say:

Net Migration last year was 336,000 although immigration was 636,000.

National Insurance numbers given to Adult Overseas nationals last year were 828,000

I think we are more than paying our part in taking our fair share.   If we want to take in more Syrians then we should reduce the numbers from other countries.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking on the Pope's suggestion of every parish taking a family (10,000 parishes x 1 family = 50,000 a year) - if every town in UK having a population of more than 20,000 took 10 Syrian families a year - we could settle 25,000 Syrians a year (there are about 500 such towns and cities in the UK)

The total number sounds large but when you break it down in to what it might mean...
		
Click to expand...

That sounds great and immigration would be far less of an issue if the burden was shared fairly. If that was the way they did things, there would'nt be a perceived problem. Certain towns though take a much larger hit than others, with all the infrastructure problems that it entails. Ipswich, for instance,  has had a massive immigrant influx in the last few years while similar size towns  have taken relatively few. Ipswich has compounded the problem by housing them in certain areas of town creating enclaves of immigrants with little integration into the community. It just creates problems.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The ONS say:

Net Migration last year was 336,000 although immigration was 636,000.

National Insurance numbers given to Adult Overseas nationals last year were 828,000

I think we are more than paying our part in taking our fair share.   If we want to take in more Syrians then we should reduce the numbers from other countries.
		
Click to expand...

What is our 'fair share'?

My point remains though.  I do fear that this referendum is going to swing on the xenophobia (verging on racism and bigotry) of a relatively small % of the UK population; a group who will use _Leave_ statements on immigration fears, as justification for their beliefs and for voting out.

And so today the NFU jon the Scottish Farmers Union to support _Remain_.  Another group to be ignored by _Brexiteers _- no doubt this time because we are not all farmers and agriculture and farming don't impact their day-to-day life (see previously the scientists).  And of course many farmers will be wondering where they will get the cheap unskilled labour to work in their fields and harvesting once the points system blocks entry into the UK of such low-skilled individuals from central and eastern Europe


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is our 'fair share'?

My point remains though.  I do fear that this referendum is going to swing on the xenophobia (verging on racism and bigotry) of a relatively small % of the UK population; a group who will use _Leave_ statements on immigration fears, as justification for their beliefs and for voting out.

And so today the NFU jon the Scottish Farmers Union to support _Remain_.  Another group to be ignored by _Brexiteers _- no doubt this time because we are not all farmers and agriculture and farming don't impact their day-to-day life (see previously the scientists).  And of course many farmers will be wondering where they will get the cheap unskilled labour to work in their fields and harvesting once the points system blocks entry into the UK of such low-skilled individuals from central and eastern Europe
		
Click to expand...

A points system is designed to allow people with the skills (or lack of) we need in the country.   If we need people to work in the fields then there would be a quota for it but not an unlimited number.   How on earth did we manage to work the fields previously?

By 'Our fair share'  I mean exactly what I say, IMO we take in more than enough immigrants, the stats suggest 636,000 last year but I suspect it's way more than this as the methods that check this are very poor.   If you look at the NI numbers issued to Foreign Nationals then it suggests these figures are not correct.   I know you would be happy with much higher numbers but I just dont agree with you, but Hey Ho thats what personal opinions are all about, I would not be so crass to suggest you should not hold that view or it's based on stupid beliefs.   Suggesting the reason people think immigration is too high is mainly due to racism and bigotry is a poor way to make a point.   IMO of course.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And of course many farmers will be wondering where they will get the cheap unskilled labour to work in their fields and harvesting once the points system blocks entry into the UK of such low-skilled individuals from central and eastern Europe
		
Click to expand...

How about from the dole queue?


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How about from the dole queue?
		
Click to expand...

There's a radical thought.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Suggesting the reason people think immigration is too high is mainly due to racism and bigotry is a poor way to make a point.   IMO of course.
		
Click to expand...

Usually suggested by those where the influx of immigrants is very low.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Usually suggested by those where the influx of immigrants is very low.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, like Chipping Norton.


----------



## Fish (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How about from the dole queue?
		
Click to expand...

But they need to get back to their cash-in-hand jobs quick and can't hang around for an interview, or they need to get back to watch Jeremy Kyle, mind you, they could record it as they do have Sky TV! 

We need more benefit cheat enforcement teams, they would comfortably be self funded with the huge amount of savings they'd make, I bet there isn't a single person on here who doesn't know someone who is working for cash in some way and yet claiming something?

Until we get our own lazy buggers into work the attraction to come here and work will always be key to any migration/immigration, to have so many unemployed and yet have so many people on benefits and yet have a wealth of unskilled work available which is why they are coming, in the main, is just plain daft and those plug holes need plugging!     

If you _choose_ not to work where there is shown and proved to be work available, you get squat, nuffin', zero, in fact, we should do an exchange, let's ship those lazy buggers of our out to Eastern Europe and keep the one's that want to work and contribute :thup:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			But they need to get back to their cash-in-hand jobs quick and can't hang around for an interview, or they need to get back to watch Jeremy Kyle, mind you, they could record it as they do have Sky TV! 

We need more benefit cheat enforcement teams, they would comfortably be self funded with the huge amount of savings they'd make, I bet there isn't a single person on here who doesn't know someone who is working for cash in some way and yet claiming something?

Until we get our own lazy buggers into work the attraction to come here and work will always be key to any migration/immigration, to have so many unemployed and yet have so many people on benefits and yet have a wealth of unskilled work available which is why they are coming, in the main, is just plain daft and those plug holes need plugging!     

If you _choose_ not to work where there is shown and proved to be work available, you get squat, nuffin', zero, in fact, we should do an exchange, let's ship those lazy buggers of our out to Eastern Europe and keep the one's that want to work and contribute :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Well said sir.
The Eastern European immigrants that I have met in Scotland are virtually all, skilled, hard working, polite and most importantly... tax payers.
The hospitality/tourism areas have really benefited from their inclusion.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said sir.
The Eastern European immigrants that I have met in Scotland are virtually all, skilled, hard working, polite and most importantly... tax payers.
The hospitality/tourism areas have really benefited from their inclusion.
		
Click to expand...

Then they'd have no problems if we issued visas for hospitality workers!


----------



## User62651 (Apr 19, 2016)

For the first time since I've been eligible to vote I may actually abstain from voting in this one. I do not believe I am being informed of any facts yet, on a daily basis now the government (who's own party members are wholly divided) are spinning whatever fear inducing message they can to persuade undecideds like me to vote 'in' and the out campaign are not really competing at the moment to get their view over. Osbourne says one thing then ex chancellor Lamont is on Sky news saying it's all wrong...who to believe? I would be far more inclined to believe Lamont than Osbourne tbh. 
Like the Scottish referendum a year and a half ago this is just going to divide the populace and the government for lack of anything positive to say are using fearmongering as their main tool, really poor negative show from Cameron again. To be fair he's stuck to his promise to offer this EU in out vote, expecting an easy result I believe, now that easy win is looking more difficult to achieve, he's resorted to type, I expect he will likely win but at what cost?
My one hope is that the vote is decisive i.e at least 65/35 split one way or the other. 60/40 or closer is not decisive enough for me.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A points system is designed to allow people with the skills (or lack of) we need in the country.   If we need people to work in the fields then there would be a quota for it but not an unlimited number.   How on earth did we manage to work the fields previously?

By 'Our fair share'  I mean exactly what I say, IMO we take in more than enough immigrants, the stats suggest 636,000 last year but I suspect it's way more than this as the methods that check this are very poor.   If you look at the NI numbers issued to Foreign Nationals then it suggests these figures are not correct.   I know you would be happy with much higher numbers but I just dont agree with you, but Hey Ho thats what personal opinions are all about, I would not be so crass to suggest you should not hold that view or it's based on stupid beliefs.   *Suggesting the reason people think immigration is too high is mainly due to racism and bigotry is a poor way to make a point.  * IMO of course.
		
Click to expand...

I am only suggesting that it is a base reason for a small minority lf those concerned about immigration - and if the margin in the referendum is small it would be a pity if those with such views held sway.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am only suggesting that it is a base reason for a small minority lf those concerned about immigration - and if the margin in the referendum is small it would be a pity if those with such views held sway.
		
Click to expand...

I think immigration is the major driver of people wanting to vote 'Leave'.   If we had been able to get agreement with the EU to have the ability to either have a points based system or a 'Brake' under our control then the 'Stay' vote would win hands down.    I dont think that would ever happen with the EU, although it may have to look differently at the matter when  the current wave of migrants get to a critical stage that has the chance of destabilisation in Europe.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think immigration is the major driver of people wanting to vote 'Leave'.   If we had been able to get agreement with the EU to have the ability to either have a points based system or a 'Brake' under our control then the 'Stay' vote would win hands down.    I dont think that would ever happen with the EU, although it may have to look differently at the matter when  the current wave of migrants get to a critical stage that has the chance of destabilisation in Europe.
		
Click to expand...

I think it underpins the intentions of a huge % of those wishing to leave, I rather wish it didn't.   BTW mailbox full


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 19, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			For the first time since I've been eligible to vote I may actually abstain from voting in this one. *I do not believe I am being informed of any facts yet,* on a daily basis now the government (who's own party members are wholly divided) are spinning whatever fear inducing message they can to persuade undecideds like me to vote 'in' and the out campaign are not really competing at the moment to get their view over. Osbourne says one thing then ex chancellor Lamont is on Sky news saying it's all wrong...who to believe? I would be far more inclined to believe Lamont than Osbourne tbh. 
Like the Scottish referendum a year and a half ago this is just going to divide the populace and the government for lack of anything positive to say are using fearmongering as their main tool, really poor negative show from Cameron again. To be fair he's stuck to his promise to offer this EU in out vote, expecting an easy result I believe, now that easy win is looking more difficult to achieve, he's resorted to type, I expect he will likely win but at what cost?
My one hope is that the vote is decisive i.e at least 65/35 split one way or the other. 60/40 or closer is not decisive enough for me.
		
Click to expand...

I'll give you one fact. We won't have to pay Â£350 MILLION pounds A WEEK to the EU. What more to you need to know?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

I see I am being enticed to vote Brexit to honour the British soldiers who lost their lives in the two world wars.

No surprise who came up with that little gem.

Latest polls have Remain nearly 10 points ahead.


----------



## ger147 (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see I am being enticed to vote Brexit to honour the British soldiers who lost their lives in the two world wars.

No surprise who came up with that little gem.

Latest polls have Remain nearly 10 points ahead.
		
Click to expand...

You got any links to the latest polls? Only reason for asking is I posted a link just yesterday to the poll of all recent polls and it was still too close to call.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it underpins the intentions of a huge % of those wishing to leave, I rather wish it didn't.   *BTW mailbox full *

Click to expand...

Sorted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see I am being enticed to vote Brexit to honour the British soldiers who lost their lives in the two world wars.

No surprise who came up with that little gem.

Latest polls have Remain nearly 10 points ahead.
		
Click to expand...

Polls are not worth looking at, they have been so wrong so many times now.  I just don't waste time looking at them.


----------



## User62651 (Apr 19, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I'll give you one fact. We won't have to pay Â£350 MILLION pounds A WEEK to the EU. What more to you need to know?
		
Click to expand...

Ok here's just a snippet -
Will UK leaving force the collpase of the EU and could Europe fall into bickering and war again without an EU?
Will Brexit really help control unwanted migration, the migrants that a lot of us are concerned about i.e. at the Calais camps are not coming from the EU. EU migrants in my area are not numerous and seem to do a good job.
After Brexit will I need a visa to visit EU countries?
Where I grew up (Highlands of Scotland) it was an EU objective 5b area and has benefitted enormously from EU grants, I cant see any equivalent spend from UK govt if we were no EU. Therefore that Â£350m could be money well spent in places of lower population in the UK where the SE focussed govt dont give an arse about.
What happens to all the EU citizens who have already settled and made lives here - can they stay?
Will UK as  a whole voting out and Scotland/Wales/Ni having voted in, does that force the end of the UK anyway?
etc etc


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

ger147 said:



			You got any links to the latest polls? Only reason for asking is I posted a link just yesterday to the poll of all recent polls and it was still too close to call.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Ger, I can't seem to re-find it.
It was out today on one of those news links.
Quite surprised me, hence post.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Ok here's just a snippet -
Will UK leaving force the collpase of the EU and could Europe fall into bickering and war again without an EU?
Will Brexit really help control unwanted migration, the migrants that a lot of us are concerned about i.e. at the Calais camps are not coming from the EU. EU migrants in my area are not numerous and seem to do a good job.
After Brexit will I need a visa to visit EU countries?
Where I grew up (Highlands of Scotland) it was an EU objective 5b area and has benefitted enormously from EU grants, I cant see any equivalent spend from UK govt if we were no EU. Therefore that Â£350m could be money well spent in places of lower population in the UK where the SE focussed govt dont give an arse about.
What happens to all the EU citizens who have already settled and made lives here - can they stay?
Will UK as  a whole voting out and Scotland/Wales/Ni having voted in, does that force the end of the UK anyway?
etc etc
		
Click to expand...

No
Yes
No
I can.
Yes
Yes
No

Etc, Etc ?

Sorted!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said sir.
The Eastern European immigrants that I have met in Scotland are virtually all, skilled, hard working, polite and most importantly... tax payers.
The hospitality/tourism areas have really benefited from their inclusion.
		
Click to expand...

Genuine question for you DfT as I don't know the answer but would they be nett contributors via tax. You said skilled and hard working and then mentioned tourism and hospitality which are generally lower skilled and lower paid jobs. I would assume that in many cases tax credits would be topping up their incomes and therefore their contribution as tax payers would be minimal or even slightly negative..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I'll give you one fact. We won't have to pay Â£350 MILLION pounds A WEEK to the EU. What more to you need to know?
		
Click to expand...

Well here are the actual facts...(link to source at bottom)

_Well, no. The UK does not send Â£350m a week to Brussels - the rebate is deducted before the money is sent, which takes the contribution down to Â£276m a week.

The actual sum sent to the EU, once the money that returns to the UK is deducted, is Â£161m a week. 

And before deciding to divert that Â£161m a week to the NHS, we would have to see what trade deal the UK ended up doing with the European Union.

Countries outside the EU, which want access to the single market, such as Norway and Switzerland, still make contributions to the EU Budget._

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/eqbxj5/live/c8j38g


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Genuine question for you DfT as I don't know the answer but would they be nett contributors via tax. You said skilled and hard working and then mentioned tourism and hospitality which are generally lower skilled and lower paid jobs. I would assume that in many cases tax credits would be topping up their incomes and therefore their contribution as tax payers would be minimal or even slightly negative..
		
Click to expand...

This is from April 2015 - but I'd have thought would still hold as a general conclusion - unless someone can find a source that tells us things have changed
_
EU immigrants contribute Â£463 per second to the UK economy_

http://www.cityam.com/213058/eu-immigrants-contribute-463-second-uk-economy


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

Cheers for the response SiLH. Seems that not all of the EU immigrants are taking low paid jobs and claiming our benefits then.

I would slightly argue with your other point about our contribution to the EU. According to the link at the bottom our actual contribution after the rebate is taken into account is around 250 million per week. I'm not sure that you can include the money we get back for farming or science grants can be taken out of that figure as we don't have control over where it is spent. As the article says "The money we get back will be spent on things the government may or may not choose to fund if we left the EU. Itâ€™s not enough to look at the net contribution in isolation because what we get back isnâ€™t fully under our control." Although I do agree with you that the figure isn't 55 million per day for our contribution.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers for the response SiLH. Seems that not all of the EU immigrants are taking low paid jobs and claiming our benefits then.

I would slightly argue with your other point about our contribution to the EU. According to the link at the bottom our actual contribution after the rebate is taken into account is around 250 million per week. I'm not sure that you can include the money we get back for farming or science grants can be taken out of that figure as we don't have control over where it is spent. As the article says "The money we get back will be spent on things the government may or may not choose to fund if we left the EU. Itâ€™s not enough to look at the net contribution in isolation because what we get back isnâ€™t fully under our control." Although I do agree with you that the figure isn't 55 million per day for our contribution.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Click to expand...

I think that where I disagree or am not sure about something I've decided to try and find facts and not put my opinion in. Except that on farming and science - well we'd have to fund that somehow - and _Leave _say UK would fund these areas *at least* to the current levels

And so _*CrazyFace *_said quite clearly and confidently that we pay Â£350million A WEEK into the EU.  I've heard this figure used by _Brexiteers _before and talked of as solving all of our problems - including being able to come out of austerity measures, fix the NHS etc etc - so I had a very quick look into it.  And the Â£350million figure turns out quite simply to not be true


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is from April 2015 - but I'd have thought would still hold as a general conclusion - unless someone can find a source that tells us things have changed
_
EU immigrants contribute Â£463 per second to the UK economy_

http://www.cityam.com/213058/eu-immigrants-contribute-463-second-uk-economy

Click to expand...

Immigrants making a net contribution only holds true when looking short term.   New immigrants tend to be younger single people who make a net contribution.   If you look longer term then it's not the same, as they age they will start to cost the state more and over their lives will cost more than they contribute.   If you look at the cost of immigrants over a longer term you will get a much different picture.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so _*CrazyFace *_said quite clearly and confidently that we pay Â£350million A WEEK into the EU.  I've heard this figure used by _Brexiteers _before and talked of as solving all of our problems - including being able to come out of austerity measures, fix the NHS etc etc - so I had a very quick look into it.  And the Â£350million figure turns out quite simply to not be true
		
Click to expand...

I'm currently looking out of the window for any signs of the four horseman of the Apocolypse as it appears that I agree with you on something. That has to be a harbinger of doom.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Genuine question for you DfT as I don't know the answer but would they be nett contributors via tax. You said skilled and hard working and then mentioned tourism and hospitality which are generally lower skilled and lower paid jobs. I would assume that in many cases tax credits would be topping up their incomes and therefore their contribution as tax payers would be minimal or even slightly negative..
		
Click to expand...

I assume you mean cleaners and waiters/bar staff etc which is the easy generalisation.
Like many I have a non Scottish doctor.
In our practice one is from Austria one Australia and one from Pakistan. They are all great doctors
It is also good to see the second generation immigrants enjoying a Scottish education. In a few years time I am sure we shall see them representing Scotland at all sorts of levels. We might even grow a decent fitba team.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

UKIP HQ [somewhere in deep Essex I assume] are trying to get rid of their Scottish leader in the middle of a Scottish election.
The reason, he is not performing well in the Euro referendum.

I hope he stays as the comedy value he brings rivals Ricky Gervais


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I assume you mean cleaners and waiters/bar staff etc which is the easy generalisation.
Like many I have a non Scottish doctor.
In our practice one is from Austria one Australia and one from Pakistan. They are all great doctors
It is also good to see the second generation immigrants enjoying a Scottish education. In a few years time I am sure we shall see them representing Scotland at all sorts of levels. We might even grow a decent fitba team.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't generalising. My question was based entirely on your post about hospitality and tourism workers and whether they would be considered nett contributors. I made no mention of highly skilled immigrants as they are obviously both needed by the country and nett contributors as well.

You do manage to post some absolute drivel on a lot of subjects (IMO) but I think that you have managed to top the lot with this post. Suggesting that Scotland might have a decent football team. You have plumbed new depths with that one.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			You do manage to post some absolute drivel on a lot of subjects (IMO) but I think that you have managed to top the lot with this post. Suggesting that Scotland might have a decent football team. You have plumbed new depths with that one. 

Click to expand...

Whoosh! :rofl:


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2016)

I asked this question a while back on here and nobody answered it but to all the pro EU people........

We *BUY* more from the EU than we *SELL* to them so do you really think they are going to make it difficult for us to trade with them? If they do, it is the EU countries that will be worse off.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't generalising. My question was based entirely on your post about hospitality and tourism workers and whether they would be considered nett contributors. I made no mention of highly skilled immigrants as they are obviously both needed by the country and nett contributors as well.

You do manage to post some absolute drivel on a lot of subjects (IMO) but I think that you have managed to top the lot with this post. Suggesting that Scotland might have a decent football team. You have plumbed new depths with that one. 

Click to expand...

I do hope you realise that there is a bit more to the hospitality industry than low paid jobs.
In The North of Scotland there is not the depth of population to cover all the jobs. Those businesses would fail without those workers. Turnberry for an example has very few local staff as the level of expertise they demand is not met by the local job market.

Re sports teams.......How many English born or second generation players fill the national rugby/cricket/hockey teams these days. AS for the EPL it is sometimes hard to spot an English player.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I asked this question a while back on here and nobody answered it but to all the pro EU people........

We *BUY* more from the EU than we *SELL* to them so do you really think they are going to make it difficult for us to trade with them? If they do, it is the EU countries that will be worse off.
		
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I asked this question a while back on here and nobody answered it but to all the pro EU people........

We *BUY* more from the EU than we *SELL* to them so do you really think they are going to make it difficult for us to trade with them? If they do, it is the EU countries that will be worse off.
		
Click to expand...

Yes.......... a case of Stuff You red wine please.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I asked this question a while back on here and nobody answered it but to all the pro EU people........

We *BUY* more from the EU than we *SELL* to them so do you really think they are going to make it difficult for us to trade with them? If they do, it is the EU countries that will be worse off.
		
Click to expand...

Far too sensible a question. The Remainers will ignore it.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so _*CrazyFace *_said quite clearly and confidently that we pay Â£350million A WEEK into the EU.  I've heard this figure used by _Brexiteers _before and talked of as solving all of our problems - including being able to come out of austerity measures, fix the NHS etc etc - so I had a very quick look into it.  And the Â£350million figure turns out quite simply to not be true
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, the the Â£350 million figure is disingenuous at best.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-send-350m-week-brussels/22804


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes
		
Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes.......... a case of Stuff You red wine please.
		
Click to expand...

More fool them then!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do hope you realise that there is a bit more to the hospitality industry than low paid jobs.
In The North of Scotland there is not the depth of population to cover all the jobs. Those businesses would fail without those workers. Turnberry for an example has very few local staff as the level of expertise they demand is not met by the local job market.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your seemingly condescending reply. Having worked in the hospitality industry for over 15 years (including The Old Course Hotel and the R&A Clubhouse in St Andrews as well a less well to do bars and restaurants) I would say that I have a fairly good grasp of the industry as a whole. 

Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't enough unemployed people in Scotland to fill jobs in hospitality and tourism without using migrant workers. According to the first link below in Autumn 2015 there were 170000 people in Scotland classed as unemployed. Not all of them will be sutiable for jobs in hospitality but to suggest that those businesses would collapse if there wasn't migrant labour is at best disingenous and at worst and outright lie. The table below copied from the second link shows that there are 4200 people in South Ayrshire alone that are looking for work. Surely some of them would be suitable instead of a migrant worker? And what exactly is this "level of expertise" required by Turnberry?

[TABLE="class: datatable, width: 845"]
[TR="class: datatableheadingrow"]
[TH="class: datatableheadingcell, align: right"][/TH]
[TH="class: datatableheadingcell, align: right"]South Ayrshire
(Level)[/TH]
[TH="class: datatableheadingcell, align: right"]South Ayrshire
(%)[/TH]
[TH="class: datatableheadingcell, align: right"]Scotland
(%)[/TH]
[TH="class: datatableheadingcell, align: right"]Great Britain
(%)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatableheadingcolspan"]
[TH="colspan: 5"]*All People*[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level0"]Total[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]15,800[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]23.2[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]22.2[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]22.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Student[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]3,400[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]21.3[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]26.4[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Looking After Family/Home[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]3,100[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]19.8[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]20.0[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]25.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Temporary Sick[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]#[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]#[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]2.6[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]2.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Long-Term Sick[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]4,000[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]26.3[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]21.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Discouraged[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]#[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]#[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]0.3[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Retired[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]3,400[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]21.7[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]15.9[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]14.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Other[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]1,200[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]7.3[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]8.6[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]10.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatableheadingcolspan"]
[TH="colspan: 5"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Wants A Job[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]4,200[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]23.3[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]24.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: datatablerow"]
[TH="class: level1"]Does Not Want A Job[/TH]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]11,600[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]73.2[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]76.7[/TD]
[TD="class: datatablecell, align: right"]75.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34526958

https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157432/report.aspx#tabempunemp


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			More fool them then!
		
Click to expand...

Just a fact of life. There would be additional barriers in place. The UK would be diminished outside of the EU and the EU would be diminished without the UK being a member.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes.......... a case of Stuff You red wine please.
		
Click to expand...

Are you joking    Lets see now!

So Hermann, we will tell those British Turncoats that they will have to go without our million BMW's a year from now on.

Yes, Helmut I agree and we will also stop letting them have our Mercedes, that will teach them a lesson.

Great idea, can we join up and stop our Volks Wagons, Audis, Skodas and Seats.   That will teach Tommy to go his own way.

Pass the schnapps please 

Wait a minute :temper:


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you joking    Lets see now!

So Hermann, we will tell those British Turncoats that they will have to go without our million BMW's a year from now on.

Yes, Helmut I agree and we will also stop letting them have our Mercedes, that will teach them a lesson.

Great idea, can we join up and stop our Volks Wagons, Audis, Skodas and Seats.   That will teach Tommy to go his own way.

Pass the schnapps please 

Wait a minute :temper:
		
Click to expand...

Not to mention the cheese, wine, olive oil and also Spanish fish no doubt caught in British waters amongst all the other things we import


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

You guys are being deliberately obtuse. Of course they won't stop selling us their stuff or buying our stuff but there will be barriers that don't currently exist imposed in both directions.

Norway pays the EU to be part of a free trade area but ask their Salmon farmers whether they'd rather be in the EU or not and you'll get an emphatic "yes".


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You guys are being deliberately obtuse. Of course they won't stop selling us their stuff or buying our stuff but there will be barriers that don't currently exist imposed in both directions
		
Click to expand...

Not if someone sensible ran the asylum. What's the point in charging us to send goods to the EU when the EU is sending their stuff to us, it would cost them more as they send more stuff to us and if they raised their prices to cover the cost of the stuff we would look for the stuff elsewhere , simpels.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Not if someone sensible ran the asylum. What's the point in charging us to send goods to the EU when the EU is sending their stuff to us, it would cost them more as they send more stuff to us and if they raised their prices to cover the cost of the stuff we would look for the stuff elsewhere , simpels.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. Meanwhile, in the real world.....


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed. Meanwhile, in the real world.....
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting as we import more from the EU than we export to the EU we will pay more.

Tarifs are normally payed on goods in.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting as we import more from the EU than we export to the EU we will pay more.

Tarifs are normally payed on goods in.
		
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting that there will be barriers and/or tariffs to trade that don't exist at the moment and that both "sides" will be worse off as a result.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm suggesting that there will be barriers and/or tariffs to trade that don't exist at the moment and that both "sides" will be worse off as a result.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't we be better off as we would be receiving more from these tariffs on the imports than we would be paying on our exports? No idea if that is correct but it seems logical to me. I don't understand why the EU would impose restricitions if it's going to cost them more than it costs us. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the subject might be able to explain.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't we be better off as we would be receiving more from these tariffs on the imports than we would be paying on our exports? No idea if that is correct but it seems logical to me. I don't understand why the EU would impose restricitions if it's going to cost them more than it costs us. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the subject might be able to explain.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you can say "we" will be better off. There will likely be winners and losers on both sides.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think you can say "we" will be better off. There will likely be winners and losers on both sides.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, I used "we" to mean the UK overall, in terms of receiving more from any tariffs than we would pay on them. And I still don't know if we would or not.

Just to be clear I'm meaning better off in this one specific instance relating to trade tariffs if they were imposed rather than better off in general from voting to leave the EU.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Apologies, I used "we" to mean the UK overall, in terms of receiving more from any tariffs than we would pay on them. And I still don't know if we would or not.

Just to be clear I'm meaning better off in this one specific instance relating to trade tariffs if they were imposed rather than better off in general from voting to leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I understood your meaning but IMO it's too simplistic. If your company exports to the EU, and suddenly finds it more expensive to do that either through tariffs or simply increased bureaucracy it doesn't really matter to you if the bigger picture is that the total increased burden for EU firms is bigger than that of UK firms. It's just a spurious argument.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, I understood your meaning but IMO it's too simplistic. If your company exports to the EU, and suddenly finds it more expensive to do that either through tariffs or simply increased bureaucracy it doesn't really matter to you if the bigger picture is that the total increased burden for EU firms is bigger than that of UK firms. It's just a spurious argument.
		
Click to expand...

I think that there will be winners and losers which ever way the vote goes. Another question that the Leave campaign need to answer is whether there would be an increase or reduction in bureaucracy for firms if we voted to leave. I would assume that any UK firm wanting to export to the EU would still have to meet all the EU regulations so how would leaving actually reduce bureaucracy and all this famous EU red tape that we keep hearing about. 

P.S. I assumed you knew what I meant but clarified just in case any of the forum pedants decided to question it.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			There will likely be winners and losers on both sides.
		
Click to expand...

Yes......and maybe that is a clue as to why the EU is so keen for us to stay in?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes......and maybe that is a clue as to why the EU is so keen for us to stay in?
		
Click to expand...

Of course.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that there will be winners and losers which ever way the vote goes. Another question that the Leave campaign need to answer is whether there would be an increase or reduction in bureaucracy for firms if we voted to leave. I would assume that any UK firm wanting to export to the EU would still have to meet all the EU regulations so how would leaving actually reduce bureaucracy and all this famous EU red tape that we keep hearing about. 

P.S. I assumed you knew what I meant but clarified just in case any of the forum pedants decided to question it.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of EU rules and regulations affect what we do with our internal markets as well as our external ones.  Outside the EU we would be free from this 'red tape'.   Fisheries and agriculture come to mind here but there will be many more.   Of course we would need to abide by EU regulations on goods exported there but thats the same with the USA, Japan, Australia and so on and so forth.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, I understood your meaning but IMO it's too simplistic. If your company exports to the EU, and suddenly finds it more expensive to do that either through tariffs or simply increased bureaucracy it doesn't really matter to you if the bigger picture is that the total increased burden for EU firms is bigger than that of UK firms. It's just a spurious argument.
		
Click to expand...

The previous suggestion that import tariffs would be two way is absolutely correct and would be in no ones interest, a free trade agreement would be created without doubt.    The suggestions that we would have to abide by similar rules as Norway and Switzerland is also very doubtful, we would have much more clout than those countries, they are very small compared to us and trade net surpluses with the EU, not really comparing apples with apples.    The other factor the UK would have as a massive positive would be that we would be able to make free trade agreements with anyone around the World, we cannot do that while in the EU.   

Something else we should consider is manufacturing more and importing less, we need to create more jobs, especially for young people and increasing our manufacturing base is a great way to do this.   We may have to pay more for things like a pair of socks, a shirt or a toothbrush but just think of the advantage of those things being produced by British workers paying NI and Tax rather than importing them from China.   If anyone thinks the EU model is better then just look at the eye watering youth unemployment in many EU countries.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 20, 2016)

A step in the right direction or conveniently timed empty platitudes directed towards people wavering in their decision on how to vote? I'll let you decide...........

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36087022


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2016)

Independent source......remember this was the guy who said that it was conceivable that an independent Scotland could use the Â£.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...eady-beginning-to-manifest-warns-mark-carney/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2016)

:mmm:


----------



## MarkE (Apr 20, 2016)

Germany are bricking it, the possibility of us leaving. It's mainly on their shoulders (and France) to make up the shortfall of funds the eu would lose from the UK. No wonder the rest of the eu are so keen on us staying.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Germany are bricking it, the possibility of us leaving. It's mainly on their shoulders (and France) to make up the shortfall of funds the eu would lose from the UK. No wonder the rest of the eu are so keen on us staying.
		
Click to expand...

what shortfall?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what shortfall?
		
Click to expand...

I'm guessing he means if we left the EU then there would be a shortfall to make up


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what shortfall?
		
Click to expand...

Really? I almost didn't bother replying to this as I assume you are simply looking for an argument. Do you not understand that the UK is a nett contributor to the EU meaning we pay in more than we receive? Regardless of whether that amount is the fictional 350 million per week that is widely quoted or closer to the much more widely accepted figure of around 200 -250 million per week after our rebate. If the UK leaves then the EU will be receiving less money and will either have to cut their budgets or increase the contributions from the countries that remain.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2016)

Thats the one!

And it will get worse as the next round of countries to join will be wanting a lot out.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what shortfall?
		
Click to expand...

I assume that if we leave and stop paying whatever the amount is, the richer nations that are left in will have to contribute more. Or make huge funding cuts wherever they see fit. What's not to understand?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I assume that if we leave and stop paying whatever the amount is, the richer nations that are left in will have to contribute more. Or make huge funding cuts wherever they see fit. What's not to understand?
		
Click to expand...

IF........ that happens surely the amount of UK to EU trade will be greatly reduced.
The EU may then decide the make up their shortfall by increasing trade tariffs to the UK.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IF........ that happens surely the amount of UK to EU trade will be greatly reduced.
The EU may then decide the make up their shortfall by increasing trade tariffs to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

So we buy even fewer German cars and French wine/cheese and then the deficit increases even more. I don't think that would be a smart move on the EU's part.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IF........ that happens surely the amount of UK to EU trade will be greatly reduced.
The EU may then decide the make up their shortfall by increasing trade tariffs to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

IF..........that happens then the UK could respond in kind and impose trade tariffs on goods being imported from the EU. As we import more from the EU than we export to them this would cost them even more money.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			IF..........that happens then the UK could respond in kind and impose trade tariffs on goods being imported from the EU. As we import more from the EU than we export to them this would cost them even more money.
		
Click to expand...

And a balance of trade tariffs in favour of the U.K. would see more money available for industry subsidies thus making UK industry even more competitive.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IF........ that happens surely the amount of UK to EU trade will be greatly reduced.
The EU may then decide the make up their shortfall by increasing trade tariffs to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure initially both sides would impose tit for tat tariffs, but it would eventually sort itself out to be workable and beneficial to both parties. As we trade at a deficit with the eu though, it's a no lose situation for the UK. They need us more than we need them.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2016)

...and it's all wishful thinking as Brexit seem unable to find anyone who'll describe the nature of the agreements that a Brexitted UK could strike up.

And it's perhaps worth bearing in mind (though Brexitters won't see it as an issue) that has taken the EU (since UK joined) 43yrs to build up the comprehensive and extensive network of trade and economic agreements it now has in place with the rest of the world.  And we'll just extract ourselves from oall of that and start again by ourselves,  good idea.  But it'll be alright on the night...

But let's just see where things are today with the EU negotians on various agreements

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-734_en.htm

hmmm - we're going to need a lot of negotiators to be doing all that ourselves in a few months time. Never mind starting out on the ones we'll be coming out of.

 But it'll be alright on the night...


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2016)




----------



## MarkE (Apr 20, 2016)

Yes and it's the usual doom and gloom guff spouted by the remain lobby over and over again. We are quite able to negotiate favourable trade deals worldwide. Links to memos from the european commission are hardly going to convince me otherwise.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 20, 2016)

Coming from someone that doesn't understand that removing the UK's nett contribution to the EU would leave a shortfall in their budget SiLH I think I'll take anything that you post with a pinch of salt.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and it's all wishful thinking as Brexit seem unable to find anyone who'll describe the nature of the agreements that a Brexitted UK could strike up.

And it's perhaps worth bearing in mind (though Brexitters won't see it as an issue) that has taken the EU (since UK joined) 43yrs to build up the comprehensive and extensive network of trade and economic agreements it now has in place with the rest of the world.  And we'll just extract ourselves from oall of that and start again by ourselves,  good idea.  But it'll be alright on the night...

But let's just see where things are today with the EU negotians on various agreements

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-734_en.htm

hmmm - we're going to need a lot of negotiators to be doing all that ourselves in a few months time. Never mind starting out on the ones we'll be coming out of.

 But it'll be alright on the night...
		
Click to expand...

Unless I'm mistaken the Article 50 exit negotiations can take up to two year, during which time I'm sure there would also be ongoing negotiations of the trade agreements.

It has been clearly stated, on numerous occasions, that no one knows what the outcome of those negotiations might be. But I'm sure both parties would be negotiating the best deals they can get. I'd expect some give and take.

As an aside, I heard a senior business leader on the radio a few days ago. He had a refreshingly honest take on it that didn't stop the day after the vote. It was along the lines of if we stay nothing will change in the short term. But he did pose the question of could the EU accept a relatively poor economy like Turkey into the fold? Would it be another Greece waiting to happen?

Equally, he was concerned about up to two years of uncertainty following an exit. He genuinely couldn't say if it would be a minor blip or a tsunami.

He didn't scare monger either way but equally he wasn't blasÃ© about the potential risks.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

It's a bit unfair to suggest "Leave' have not come up with the same levels of propaganda as the 'Stay' group.   Camo and Osbo have used the Government machine to produce the two current scaremongering documents at tax payers expense.   The leave group are not allowed to do that.  A very even handed approach, I don't think.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a bit unfair to suggest "Leave' have not come up with the same levels of propaganda as the 'Stay' group.   Camo and Osbo have used the Government machine to produce the two current scaremongering documents at tax payers expense.   The leave group are not allowed to do that.  A very even handed approach, I don't think.
		
Click to expand...

This is a non-issue, move on.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is a non-issue, move on.
		
Click to expand...

To you maybe but not me and maybe a number of others; so I respectfully suggest you take your own medicine.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			To you maybe but not me and maybe a number of others; so I respectfully suggest you take your own medicine.
		
Click to expand...

I'm no fan of this government but I just can't see why anyone thinks the government should fund propaganda that opposes its position? Just nonsense. Has it ever happened before?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

I think the now totally debunked cost figure of Â£350m per week constantly quoted by the all of the Leave groups has holed the Leavers below the waterline.

They do not seem to be able to come up with another believable argument.


----------



## ger147 (Apr 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm no fan of this government but I just can't see why anyone thinks the government should fund propaganda that opposes its position? Just nonsense. Has it ever happened before?
		
Click to expand...

The rules governing spending limits etc. of the referendum are set by the Electoral Commission. This is to ensure impartiality and they define how much public money both sides get, ensuring both sides get an equal chance to put their case etc.

IMO, the Government's leaflet drives a cart and horses through all of that, especially as claim as they might, staying in the EU can not be the official government position as all government policy is covered by collective responsibility, the cornerstone of UK cabinet government, and collective responsibility was not achieved for staying in the EU as Cameron could never have got the whole cabinet to agree to it, hence the free vote and the freedom to campaign for a Leave vote despite remaining in the cabinet.


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Ok here's just a snippet -
Will UK leaving force the collpase of the EU and could Europe fall into bickering and war again without an EU? *Who cares*
Will Brexit really help control unwanted migration, the migrants that a lot of us are concerned about i.e. at the Calais camps are not coming from the EU. EU migrants in my area are not numerous and seem to do a good job. *Yes and really most are wandering around my town at lunchtime and their kid are not in school.*
After Brexit will I need a visa to visit EU countries?
Where I grew up (Highlands of Scotland) it was an EU objective 5b area and has benefitted enormously from EU grants, I cant see any equivalent spend from UK govt if we were no EU. Therefore that Â£350m could be money well spent in places of lower population in the UK where the SE focussed govt dont give an arse about. *why? If the tories were ousted it would be*
What happens to all the EU citizens who have already settled and made lives here - can they stay?*yes. but no benefits to be paid to them for 5 years. BYEEEEEEE*
Will UK as  a whole voting out and Scotland/Wales/Ni having voted in, does that force the end of the UK anyway?
etc etc
		
Click to expand...

*Yes and good luck with that.*


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Coming from someone that doesn't understand that removing the UK's nett contribution to the EU would leave a shortfall in their budget SiLH I think I'll take anything that you post with a pinch of salt.
		
Click to expand...

And that is our problem because?????


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the now totally debunked cost figure of Â£350m per week constantly quoted by the all of the Leave groups has holed the Leavers below the waterline.

They do not seem to be able to come up with another believable argument.
		
Click to expand...

Has it? I've not heard anything? Explain please?


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

also, just wait until the next collapse of the job market. Oooooooo, There may be trouble ahead...la la la

The Government, which ever party it is don't give a stuff about us plebs. They'll never have to wallow in the smelly stuff they are creating for us.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Has it? I've not heard anything? Explain please?
		
Click to expand...

If someone tells you a blatant lie to influence your support/funding, would you believe anything else they said.


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

Also, with all these immigrants, we here in the UK are having to deal with them being unable to speak the language. this means that, at where I work, we are having to allow them on to site without them understanding the safety rules that we issue them with. I have just had to issue an internal warning form regarding this matter. Is this right that we should have to do this? Free movement of the work force is just not practicable unless they are fluent in the language of the country they go to. Their inability to full understand the instructions given to them verbally or written is an accident waiting to happen. Who is to pay for all this? US THAT'S WHO!!!! The "in" voters have no idea of all this. They just see flowers and fluffy bunnies. Open your stupid eyes.


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If someone tells you a blatant lie to influence your support/funding, would you believe anything else they said.
		
Click to expand...

??????


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm no fan of this government but I just can't see why anyone thinks the government should fund propaganda that opposes its position? Just nonsense. Has it ever happened before?
		
Click to expand...

I didnt suggest they should.  I rather suggested that it's unfair to keep using tax payers money to support one side of the argument.   I thought that it was against the Electoral Commissions rules.  The 'Stay Camp' have also challenged the 'Leavers' to show their Dossier that shows the case for leaving.   How can they do that when they dont have the Civil Service machine available. :angry:


----------



## jp5 (Apr 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the now totally debunked cost figure of Â£350m per week constantly quoted by the all of the Leave groups has holed the Leavers below the waterline.

They do not seem to be able to come up with another believable argument.
		
Click to expand...

Yet it's somehow still more accurate than the Government's Â£4,300 loss per household by 2030 figure!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Yet it's somehow still more accurate than the Government's Â£4,300 loss per household by 2030 figure!
		
Click to expand...

I have not seen anyone easily debunk that figure so, as far as I am concerned.......yes.
Have you noticed that no one is using that Â£350m figure now, even on hear leave supporters know it is wrong.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have not seen anyone easily debunk that figure so, as far as I am concerned.......yes.
Have you noticed that no one is using that Â£350m figure now, even on hear leave supporters know it is wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Really? It's a ridiculous calculation - national GDP expressed per household has no relevance. I don't think I've ever seen that metric used to measure anything!

It also is expressed in terms of households today instead of the number of households in 2030. Why would you do that? I can't think of any reason other than to inflate the figure.

It's a pretty insulting piece of arithmetic!

The Â£350m figure at least has some grounding in reality, though agree it's also been subject to some misrepresentation.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Also, with all these immigrants, we here in the UK are having to deal with them being unable to speak the language. this means that, at where I work, we are having to allow them on to site without them understanding the safety rules that we issue them with. I have just had to issue an internal warning form regarding this matter. Is this right that we should have to do this? Free movement of the work force is just not practicable unless they are fluent in the language of the country they go to. Their inability to full understand the instructions given to them verbally or written is an accident waiting to happen. Who is to pay for all this? US THAT'S WHO!!!! The "in" voters have no idea of all this. They just see flowers and fluffy bunnies. Open your stupid eyes.
		
Click to expand...

How will this change with Brexit?

Membership of EFTA - as proposed by Gove as the solution to free Trade - is via the EEA, which requires 'the freedom of movement of persons' - as well as goods, capital and services - so there would be no change in that area - except UK would not be able to veto which countries become members of the EU!

So LESS control over immigration than now!!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2016)

Whatever the figure is that the Remain campaigners are banding around, it is likely to be very different when they let in poorer countries like Turkey with unstable economies. No doubt if we stay we will have to prop them up as well just like Greece.

Can someone please explain to me why I now have to work to 66 to fund my pension yet the Greeks expect to retire at 55 even though they don't have the money to do so and the EU has to bail them out?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Whatever the figure is that the Remain campaigners are banding around, it is likely to be very different when they let in poorer countries like Turkey with unstable economies. No doubt if we stay we will have to prop them up as well just like Greece.

Can someone please explain to me why I now have to work to 66 to fund my pension yet the Greeks expect to retire at 55 even though they don't have the money to do so and the EU has to bail them out?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/retirement-age-men
Not according to these guys......you been reading UKIP stuff again DFS?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Coming from someone that doesn't understand that removing the UK's nett contribution to the EU would leave a shortfall in their budget SiLH I think I'll take anything that you post with a pinch of salt.
		
Click to expand...

I understand a financial shortfall.  But it isn't all about money is it - as much as _Brexiteers_ would like to pretend.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I understand a financial shortfall.  But it isn't all about money is it - as much as _Brexiteers_ would like to pretend.
		
Click to expand...

:lol: Oooooooooo spot on there Hogan.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I understand a financial shortfall.  But it isn't all about money is it - as much as _Brexiteers_ would like to pretend.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I've heard anyone from the Leave side say it's all about money. They normally have other reasons whether it be immigration, self determination, less interference from Brussels or any one of a number of any reasons.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't think I've heard anyone from the Leave side say it's all about money. They normally have other reasons whether it be immigration, self determination, less interference from Brussels or any one of a number of any reasons.
		
Click to expand...

But boy - just imagine the amount of money that we'd have to spend - however we choose without someone else telling us how to spend it  - if we didn't have to pay benefits and working tax credits to immigrants; pay for housing and infrastructure to support immigrants; pay out of work benefits to those whose jobs have been stolen by immigrants.  Yes you are right - it isn't all about money...


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But boy - just imagine the amount of money that we'd have to spend - however we choose without someone else telling us how to spend it  - if we didn't have to pay benefits and working tax credits to immigrants; pay for housing and infrastructure to support immigrants; pay out of work benefits to those whose jobs have been stolen by immigrants.  Yes you are right - it isn't all about money...
		
Click to expand...

Come on now, that the same type of argument that can used to suit any side.  Here's another:   If all these immigrants pay lots of tax and Ni into the system, don't claim benefits and are big net contributors then why aren't we rolling in dosh.   We should have lots more money to fund the NHS, build houses, more schools, cut taxes and retire earlier.  Bring them on!


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on now, that the same type of argument that can used to suit any side.  Here's another:   If all these immigrants pay lots of tax and Ni into the system, don't claim benefits and are big net contributors then why aren't we rolling in dosh.   We should have lots more money to fund the NHS, build houses, more schools, cut taxes and retire earlier.  Bring them on!
		
Click to expand...

According to this, that would seem to be exactly what has happened!

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

Can't comment on the veracity of the article, but it uses ONS data and appears sound at first glance! An interesting thing to note is the percentage of immigrants who are come here for formal study - over half in fact and nearly 3 times as many who arrive either for a formal job or are looking for work!
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/12759/labour-markets/reasons-net-migration-uk/ 
No idea why an equivalent number isn't included in the outward migration!


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			According to this, that would seem to be exactly what has happened!

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

Can't comment on the veracity of the article, but it uses ONS data and appears sound at first glance! An interesting thing to note is the percentage of immigrants who are come here for formal study - over half in fact and nearly 3 times as many who arrive either for a formal job or are looking for work!
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/12759/labour-markets/reasons-net-migration-uk/ 
No idea why an equivalent number isn't included in the outward migration!
		
Click to expand...

My point was about digging out  data that suits your argument can be made for almost anything.  It was not to open a debate on immigration specifically.    As a matter of interest take a look at the costs of longer term immigration from non EU migrants, the fact that they are not mainly young single people makes a huge different to their costs.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			My point was about digging out  data that suits your argument can be made for almost anything.  It was not to open a debate on immigration specifically.    As a matter of interest take a look at the costs of longer term immigration from non EU migrants, the fact that they are not mainly young single people makes a huge different to their costs.
		
Click to expand...

'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' has always been a 'watch-phrase' - even/especially when I worked for the Dept of Statistics!!

Immigraton - and control of UK borders - is a fundamental focus for the Brexit campaign! But the Brexitters have yet to come up with a resolution that will actually work - as joining EFTA will not restrict EU migrants!

And it appears you are indicating that *non-EU* migrants that are a larger burden, whereas the study indicates that EU migrants are significant contributors! But. again, note my first sentence!!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/retirement-age-men
Not according to these guys......you been reading UKIP stuff again DFS?
		
Click to expand...

How about this then?

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/03/r...simple-reasons-greece-is-imploding-right-now/


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' has always been a 'watch-phrase' - even/especially when I worked for the Dept of Statistics!!

Immigraton - and control of UK borders - is a fundamental focus for the Brexit campaign! But the Brexitters have yet to come up with a resolution that will actually work - as joining EFTA will not restrict EU migrants!

And it appears you are indicating that *non-EU* migrants that are a larger burden, whereas the study indicates that EU migrants are significant contributors! But. again, note my first sentence!!
		
Click to expand...

Only because most have been here a shorter time.  They will not make a positive contribution in the long term unless they leave before raising families or getting old.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How about this then?

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/03/r...simple-reasons-greece-is-imploding-right-now/

Click to expand...

The Daily Caller  and it's a year old.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How about this then?

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/03/r...simple-reasons-greece-is-imploding-right-now/

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			The Daily Caller  and it's a year old.
		
Click to expand...

They guy that posts endless links to Wings over Scotland questioning a link that someone else has posted. 

Dear Mr Kettle, you appear to be black. Kind regards, Mr Pot.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			They guy that posts endless links to Wings over Scotland questioning a link that someone else has posted. 

Dear Mr Kettle, you appear to be black. Kind regards, Mr Pot.
		
Click to expand...

Ah... but Wings is the second most popular politics/news forum in the UK.
I don't think tooooo many on here follow The Daily Caller. {smaksofdesperation.com]


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah... but Wings is the second most popular politics/news forum in the UK.
I don't think tooooo many on here follow The Daily Caller. {smaksofdesperation.com]
		
Click to expand...

I consider myself well read, yet I'd never heard of Wings before you posted up links. And no, I hadn't heard of the Caller either. I place equal value on both, i. e. Both good for lining the bin. Now if you posted up links to a main stream newspaper I'd take you more seriously. Yes I know the main streams are biased but at least I know their bias and can take it into account.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Daily Caller  and it's a year old.
		
Click to expand...

  As were your stats, although things have changed over the last 5 years.  It was a fact that people with what were considered life threatening jobs (fire service, police and regular forces personnel (the list even included hairdressers) were retiring at 50 with others in the public sector going at 55.  There has been a change but more to do with reducing the public sector pensions rather than changing retirement ages.

In Greece it has always been about public sector costs than OAP.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I consider myself well read, yet I'd never heard of Wings before you posted up links. And no, I hadn't heard of the Caller either. I place equal value on both, i. e. Both good for lining the bin. Now if you posted up links to a main stream newspaper I'd take you more seriously. Yes I know the main streams are biased but at least I know their bias and can take it into account.
		
Click to expand...


I always though Wings was his own little blog.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I always though Wings was his own little blog.
		
Click to expand...


This is my news site of choice.  Non of this politically biased stuff here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheWeird


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Only because most have been here a shorter time.  They will not make a positive contribution in the long term unless they leave before raising families or getting old.
		
Click to expand...

While I can see your point, I don't believe it's valid!

They are no different from equivalent UK folk with regard to making a positive contribution - except that the initial 'cost' of raising and educating them is saved (at least for those with/looking for a job) because that that cost has been borne by their home countries!

And that argument is certainly not what is being debated by the Brexiters an Bremainers!


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			While I can see your point, I don't believe it's valid!

They are no different from equivalent UK folk with regard to making a positive contribution - except that the initial 'cost' of raising and educating them is saved (at least for those with/looking for a job) because that that cost has been borne by their home countries!

And that argument is certainly not what is being debated by the Brexiters an Bremainers!
		
Click to expand...

They are no different from UK folk, that's correct as UK Folk on average cost more than they put in, thats why we have a National Debt.   The point isn't that, it's that the suggestion that immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer is not true in the longer term.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Daily Caller  and it's a year old.
		
Click to expand...

My point really was just to highlight that you can find or invent pretty much anything with a quick google search.

However, it was well publicised in news reports at the time of the Greek bailout that they want to retire early but don't have the money to finance it. But it's OK, we can pay millions a week to help them out  :thup:

Can't wait till Turkey join as well..........


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			My point really was just to highlight that you can find or invent pretty much anything with a quick google search.

However, it was well publicised in news reports at the time of the Greek bailout that they want to retire early but don't have the money to finance it. But it's OK, we can pay millions a week to help them out  :thup:

Can't wait till Turkey join as well..........
		
Click to expand...

All countries on the 'To Join' list are all basket case economies and their main reason to join will be for someone else to pay  to improve their lifestyles.    Wouldn't mind someone else paying to improve mine.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They are no different from UK folk, that's correct as *UK Folk on average cost more than they put in, thats why we have a National Debt. *  The point isn't that, it's that the suggestion that immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer is not true in the longer term.
		
Click to expand...

That's a ridiculous statement!

We have a National Debt because GOVERNMENTS have chosen to spend more than they received, not because individuals contribute more or less than they take out! The aging population - and costs vs contribution issues - are, indeed, areas that should concern government planners (and that's why pension ages are being raised), but that's a totally different issue from the EU/Immigration one! 

Btw. In searching for evidence/stts, I came across this interesting, if old, article that appears to highlight how little the EU costs taxpayers! There seems to be plenty of scope for savings in areas other than the EU! Can't say how accurate (or not) the figures actually are though!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ed-how-much-you-pay-towards-benefit-bill.html


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah... but Wings is the second most popular politics/news forum in the UK.
I don't think tooooo many on here follow The Daily Caller. {smaksofdesperation.com]
		
Click to expand...

But popular does not equal correct, factual or accurate. The Sun is the most popular tabloid newspaper in the UK and The Daily Mail Website is the most popular online newspaper website. Are you suggesting that we should just accept everything they print because they're popular?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's a ridiculous statement!

We have a National Debt because GOVERNMENTS have chosen to spend more than they received, not because individuals contribute more or less than they take out! The aging population - and costs vs contribution issues - are, indeed, areas that should concern government planners (and that's why pension ages are being raised), but that's a totally different issue from the EU/Immigration one! 

Btw. In searching for evidence/stts, I came across this interesting, if old, article that appears to highlight how little the EU costs taxpayers! There seems to be plenty of scope for savings in areas other than the EU! Can't say how accurate (or not) the figures actually are though!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ed-how-much-you-pay-towards-benefit-bill.html

Click to expand...

There is nothing ridiculous about my statement.   Government only spends money the tax payers put in, money they spend out is used for the overall benefit of the population.   So as I said the money paid in by the native population is less than the Government pay out on their behalf.   

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			... Government only spends money the tax payers put in...
		
Click to expand...

Wrong! If that was the case, we wouldn't have deficits! 

Government borrows the between what it receives and what it pays out/spends!


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong! If that was the case, we wouldn't have deficits! 

Government borrows the between what it receives and what it pays out/spends!
		
Click to expand...

You are either being obtuse and looking for an argument or cant be bothered to read and digest the whole post.  I tend to think it's the former and driven very much by some kind of  personal issue you have with me.  

I just wish you would grow up and stop this silly behaviour.  You are aware how it always ends up!


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2016)

Ah, that old reply! ;rolleyes:

No! Neither. But I agree, that discussion area is complete.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2016)

For someone who the Brexiteers claim is a Cameron 'stooge' on the UK/EU debate - speaking words put in to his mouth by Remain - this guy makes a good fist of talking as if he really means it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36120808


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For someone who the Brexiteers claim is a Cameron 'stooge' on the UK/EU debate - speaking words put in to his mouth by Remain - this guy makes a good fist of talking as if he really means it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36120808

Click to expand...

Read up on the TTIP trade deal and what it's done for South Korea. A promise of 60,000 jobs and economic growth has seen 40,000 job losses and an increase in deficit of Â£3.5billion. And then look up how many Labour MP's are against it, along with the fears the BMA have of it and what it will do to the NHS.

Of course he wants the trade deal. It's a win for the US and no one else.

At least argue Remain from a British stand point, and not what's best for America!


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For someone who the Brexiteers claim is a Cameron 'stooge' on the UK/EU debate - speaking words put in to his mouth by Remain - this guy makes a good fist of talking as if he really means it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36120808

Click to expand...

He does!

But then, that's his job! And was also his job before politics! So he's had a bit of practice at putting his message across!

It has always seemed to me that Democrat presidents have been more convincing speakers than Republican ones. Bill Clinton made a particularly impressive speech at a (televised) Labour Party Conference some time ago!


----------



## MarkE (Apr 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For someone who the Brexiteers claim is a Cameron 'stooge' on the UK/EU debate - speaking words put in to his mouth by Remain - this guy makes a good fist of talking as if he really means it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36120808

Click to expand...

Getting out of the TTIP trade deal would be an added bonus of exiting the EU. The USA will still trade with us, as will the eu, it's in their own interests as much as ours.


----------



## ScienceBoy (Apr 24, 2016)

The out campaign has been sounding a bit "everything will be the same if we leave". Seems a strange tactic.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 24, 2016)

ScienceBoy said:



			The out campaign has been sounding a bit "everything will be the same if we leave". Seems a strange tactic.
		
Click to expand...

I've never said things will be the same. Things will be better, could'nt be worse.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

ScienceBoy said:



			The out campaign has been sounding a bit "everything will be the same if we leave". Seems a strange tactic.
		
Click to expand...

Some things would be the same:  Sun will rise in the Morning and Set in the Evening, Tuesday will follow Monday and so on.  Initially nothing much will seem different but after a while we will realise we have the ability to do things without having to go to Big Brother and grovel or as we have recently done; go cap in hand and if we are lucky get a few crumbs from the Big Boys table.   We may decide we want to toss out some foreign scumbag troublemaker or stop countries underpricing our vital industries. It wont be the same, it will have the opportunity to be be what WE make it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I've never said things will be the same. Things will be better, could'nt be worse.
		
Click to expand...

You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell?  How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world.  All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people.  Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with.  You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east.  Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU.  And why do they bother with the EU?  Because of the size of the market and the single market.    The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam.  And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU.  Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK.  Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 24, 2016)

Quite looking forward to making 'stuff' for ourselves again creating proper jobs rather than warehousemen for 'stuff' made elsewhere... Putting some pride back into the place...

As far as I am concerned you can shove globalisation right up where the sun don't shine...


----------



## jp5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Think you're doing the UK a disservice, SILH.

Look at it another way - what country wouldn't want to be trading with the 5th largest economy in the world?

Just look at this from a Canadian politician. Makes a fair case for the other side.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Quite looking forward to making 'stuff' for ourselves again creating proper jobs rather than warehousemen for 'stuff' made elsewhere... Putting some pride back into the place...

As far as I am concerned you can shove globalisation right up where the sun don't shine...
		
Click to expand...

Here here!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			As far as I am concerned you can shove globalisation right up where the sun don't shine...
		
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that no amount of wishful thinking is putting that genie back in the bottle.


----------



## Ethan (Apr 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I've never said things will be the same. Things will be better, could'nt be worse.
		
Click to expand...

And in a nutshell, there is the reason the Brexiteers are dangerous and naive. Things could be a very great deal worse. To believe otherwise is incredibly foolish.


----------



## Ethan (Apr 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			As far as I am concerned you can shove globalisation right up where the sun don't shine...
		
Click to expand...

Is that the dictionary definition of an insular Littke Englander?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell?  How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world.  All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people.  Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with.  You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east.  Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU.  And why do they bother with the EU?  Because of the size of the market and the single market.    The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam.  And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU.  Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK.  Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.
		
Click to expand...

Here you go talking down your country again.  Why do you think Vietnam would have no interest with the UK out of the EU?  Countries like Vietnam are interested in the products they need not whether or not they come from the EU.   Vietnam is part of the WTO and has free trade agreements with :
China
Japan
South Korea
India
Australia
New Zealand

Why on earth do you think they would not enter into an agreement with the UK if they have entered into ones with them.   Your comment asking why Vietnams Minister is not telling us about developing new agreements is a little naive.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2016)

Well it's taken the EU over 40 years to come close but not yet finalise a trade agreement with the good old US of A to which they (USA) are better off. So it sounds like we might be one behind the EU in line then.


----------



## MarkE (Apr 24, 2016)

Ethan said:



			And in a nutshell, there is the reason the Brexiteers are dangerous and naive. Things could be a very great deal worse. To believe otherwise is incredibly foolish.
		
Click to expand...

The usual remain reply. Insult anyone with a different view to your own with nothing to back it up. Yawn.


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 24, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Is that the dictionary definition of an insular Littke Englander?
		
Click to expand...


HOW HIGH?



Feel better now?


----------



## MarkE (Apr 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell?  How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world.  All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people.  Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with.  You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east.  Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU.  And why do they bother with the EU?  Because of the size of the market and the single market.    The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam.  And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU.  Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK.  Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.
		
Click to expand...

I can't wait until we are able to again, make our own trade deal. Vietnam? hardly a fair comparison. We are the 5th largest economy in the world man, everyone will trade with us. Have a bit more faith.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Is that the dictionary definition of an insular Littke Englander?
		
Click to expand...

Dont know what a Littke Englander is.  How has this debate become one about Englanders little big or otherwise, last time I looked the referendum was for the UK; or are you insinuating that only English people are insular.

Lets look a little more into that term, Little Englander. It's origins were to describe someone who disagreed with the expansion of the British Empire.   If you are using the insult to suggest anyone who has a preference for the UK to forge it's own future without the interference of the EU as 'Little Englanders' then bring it on for me as thats exactly what I am.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Insult anyone with a different view to your own with. Yawn.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that, he has form.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

As Shakespeare's death 400 years ago is a current thought maybe we could use some of his works in our debate:

To be in, or not to be in- that is the question: 
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune 
Or to take arms against a sea of EU troubles, 
And by opposing end them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2016)

Heres a real 'Little Englander' piece to lift the spirit 

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'


----------



## Ethan (Apr 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont know what a Littke Englander is.  How has this debate become one about Englanders little big or otherwise, last time I looked the referendum was for the UK; or are you insinuating that only English people are insular.

Lets look a little more into that term, Little Englander. It's origins were to describe someone who disagreed with the expansion of the British Empire.   If you are using the insult to suggest anyone who has a preference for the UK to forge it's own future without the interference of the EU as 'Little Englanders' then bring it on for me as thats exactly what I am.
		
Click to expand...

As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

_"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union. 
_
Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 24, 2016)

Ethan said:



			As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

_"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is *always* applied to *anyone who has a different opinion to Ethan*. 
_
Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you!


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 24, 2016)

Ethan said:



			As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

_"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union. 
_
Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.
		
Click to expand...


I've suffered enough upper middle lower management bully boys to recognise one wearing the badge so well...


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2016)

Ethan said:



			As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

_"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union. 
_
Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.
		
Click to expand...

So it's only English then.   I should tag the Racist label to that comment but as I am more of an easy going type I will just put it down to the rantings of a screwed up individual that has a rather inflated opinion of himself; thus needing to revert to personal attacks to anyone having a different opinion to his own.   Physician, heal thine self :rofl:


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell?  How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world.  All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people.  Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with.  You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east.  Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU.  And why do they bother with the EU?  Because of the size of the market and the single market.    The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam.  And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU.  Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK.  Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.
		
Click to expand...

And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?*

No
*
Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under Â£5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore unfounded rubbish you wish to share?


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm afraid that no amount of wishful thinking is putting that genie back in the bottle.
		
Click to expand...


Sadly, you are almost certainly right...

Pleased though, to see 25-30 thousand out protesting against it in Hanover this weekend...


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2016)

I presume Mr Corbyn will come across to the Dark Side as it now appears that a big hole will be shot through workers rights IF the US trade deal ever gets signed.  Looks like the decade of negotiation looks like a good deal.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?*

No
*
Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under Â£5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore unfounded rubbish you wish to share?
		
Click to expand...

maybe you need to read Andrew Rawnsley's commentary pierce (in the _Observer _yesterday) - you can then tell us that's HE'S talking rubbish about Vietnam and explain why.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?*

No
*
Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under Â£5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore *unfounded rubbish *you wish to share?
		
Click to expand...

This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

And as far as the UK has with Vietnam.  I do have to ask how much this deal was based upon the UK being in the EU?  Because that's the thing with all trade deals made with the UK over the last 40 years - they have been made on the knowledge that the UK was a member of the EU.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			maybe you need to read Andrew Rawnsley's commentary pierce (in the _Observer _yesterday) - you can then tell us that's HE'S talking rubbish about Vietnam and explain why.
		
Click to expand...

And maybe you need to read the DTI's report BEFORE you try to 'sell' it in support of your argument. I'll stick with hard facts, not a media report.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 25, 2016)

It may be splitting hairs, but I wasn't aware of a "Trade Agreement" with Vietnam.. I know the EU  has one, but the deal between the UK and Vietnam is a "Strategic Partnership" that encompasses several areas, including Politics, trade, education etc...

So, you're both right.. Or, you're both wrong.. Or, everyone's wrong and golfers on forums just like arguing?


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.
		
Click to expand...

So basicaly both sides are spouting rubbish . Couldn't agree more. Us dark siders openly admit to not knowing the definitive answer to the future while those that wish to be controlled from afar believe everything that the sheep come up with.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			So basicaly both sides are spouting rubbish . Couldn't agree more. Us dark siders openly admit to not knowing the definitive answer to the future while those that wish to be controlled from afar believe everything that the sheep come up with.
		
Click to expand...

Our MD spoke about it in a briefing a couple of weeks back. He's a Remain but he openly says no one will know what Leave will be till after the Article 50 negotiations take place.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

And as far as the UK has with Vietnam.  I do have to ask how much this deal was based upon the UK being in the EU?  Because that's the thing with all trade deals made with the UK over the last 40 years - they have been made on the knowledge that the UK was a member of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Come on just admit you got that one wrong.   People who vote Leave do it for their own reasons, they don't need people like you or Ethan telling them they are misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around.   If you want us to stay in the EU then thats your prerogative and you will get a vote like anyone else.   A number of people have explained that their decision is not whether we will be a bit better or worse off, it's more than that to some of us but you either don't understand that or as I suspect don't want to. 

I have stated my reasons and will continue to do so, I wont name call you for having different ones though as that would just be crass bad manners


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...People who vote Leave do it for their own reasons, they don't need people like you or Ethan telling them they are misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around.   If you want us to stay in the EU then thats your prerogative and you will get a vote like anyone else.  * A number of people have explained that their decision is not whether we will be a bit better or worse off, it's more than that to some of us but you either don't understand that or as I suspect don't want to. *

I have stated my reasons and will continue to do so, I wont name call you for having different ones though as that would just be crass bad manners
		
Click to expand...

And that's a quite valid point of view - if perhaps (or perhaps not) 'misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around'! 

But it means there's actually no point in any further discussion! Take heart that your vote will (presumably) cancel SILH's!

SILH is certainly right about BoJo spouting rubbish though! But there's plenty of that from the Remain-ers too!


----------



## vkurup (Apr 25, 2016)

I was in India for a few weeks and got to speak to a few friends who have business interest with the UK.  So my 2 bits from the other side on how Indian biz is looking at Brexit.  It is based on unscientific and negligible sample size (and influenced by loads of dram)

*Disclaimer: *My views are purely based on observations and discussions with friends & family based in India who do business with the UK (and the world). I am sure there is a equal and opposite political & rational view that can provide a rebuttal to every point above. Also, this might not have the same gravitas as Obama's version, but it was interesting to hear this from the perspective of the emerging markets. 


1) *Currency* - Over the past few weeks, the GBP v INR has been unstable.  Intra-day fluctuations have been a bit manic as we get into less than 90 days into the referendum. Indian exporters incl the IT industry are very conscious of the exchange rate as this has a big impact on bottomlines.  So GBP currency hedge premiums are going mental. No one knows what the value of the GBP would be in case of an exit.  The only view is that it is likely to drop about 10% in the short term, but could go as low as 50% over a longer term.  Nothing scientific, but plenty to speculate

2) *Role of UK*: Given the common language and the history, UK is seen as a safe haven and a spring board into EU.  The UK legal system (on which the Indian legal system is based) is well understood and a lot of Indian business work with the EU under English & Welsh laws.  No one knows what will happen to this.  Equally the UK financial system is a bedrock of the global financial quagmire. While it is unlikely that London will disappear as a financial hub in the next 10 years, no one can predict the impact of the exit on financial industry.  Down south, the financial industry is akin to the drug industry - but this drug supports a wider economy and keeps taxes in check and pays for NHS, Defence etc.  So a longer term demise of the financial industry will have a domino effect on the remaining sectors.   There will be a run on the property market in London as people will cash out on some of their investments.  

3) *Free trade agreements: *No one really buys into the political spin that the UK will renegotiate all their trade agreements and therefore business will look outside the UK to manage this.  Given that the size of the Indian economy and its growth far exceeds the UK, they think they can negotiate a better trade agreement than a smaller UK.  There will be a number of Industry bodies from France, Germany etc that will start queuing up to sign up and provide the next 'springboard'. Switzerland with existing connection may be better placed to replace the UK as that springboard despite being outside the 'core EU'


4) *Relevance of the UK*:  Currently the UK punches far above its weight on the world scene. There are many historical, strategic, military, financial reasons for that.  One of those pillars is the UK role in EU which amplifies its size many times over. Without this amplifying effect it reduces that significance in the modern world.  If the UK opts out, it is highly likely that the Salmon, Sturgeon & Co will force Scotland out of the UK thereby making it even smaller a la Iceland - and who remembers Iceland after their world dominating banks disappeared? 


The reality is that *no one really knows *what the impact of the exit would be.  The consensus was that with a weaker pound and a common language, the rUK will be good for tourism and education. But beyond that, the business prospects within rUK will be much smaller and less profitable.  The strength of the currency is speculative, but likely to go down over a period of time.  Everyone is hoping that Joe public will ignore the political rhetoric and vote to stay in.  If UK votes to stay in, there will be some firecrackers being set off in celebration - just as some folks did when Scotland decided to stay. India does have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay inside the EU as it sees UK as a much stronger business proposition than a smaller rUK.


----------



## jp5 (Apr 25, 2016)

I don't think anyone doubts other populations would prefer us to stay in. Question is whether it's in the interests of the British people as a whole. That is a much more finely balanced proposition.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I was in India for a few weeks and got to speak to a few friends who have business interest with the UK.  So my 2 bits from the other side on how Indian biz is looking at Brexit.  It is based on unscientific and negligible sample size (and influenced by loads of dram)

*Disclaimer: *My views are purely based on observations and discussions with friends & family based in India who do business with the UK (and the world). I am sure there is a equal and opposite political & rational view that can provide a rebuttal to every point above. Also, this might not have the same gravitas as Obama's version, but it was interesting to hear this from the perspective of the emerging markets. 


1) *Currency* - Over the past few weeks, the GBP v INR has been unstable.  Intra-day fluctuations have been a bit manic as we get into less than 90 days into the referendum. Indian exporters incl the IT industry are very conscious of the exchange rate as this has a big impact on bottomlines.  So GBP currency hedge premiums are going mental. No one knows what the value of the GBP would be in case of an exit.  The only view is that it is likely to drop about 10% in the short term, but could go as low as 50% over a longer term.  Nothing scientific, but plenty to speculate

2) *Role of UK*: Given the common language and the history, UK is seen as a safe haven and a spring board into EU.  The UK legal system (on which the Indian legal system is based) is well understood and a lot of Indian business work with the EU under English & Welsh laws.  No one knows what will happen to this.  Equally the UK financial system is a bedrock of the global financial quagmire. While it is unlikely that London will disappear as a financial hub in the next 10 years, no one can predict the impact of the exit on financial industry.  Down south, the financial industry is akin to the drug industry - but this drug supports a wider economy and keeps taxes in check and pays for NHS, Defence etc.  So a longer term demise of the financial industry will have a domino effect on the remaining sectors.   There will be a run on the property market in London as people will cash out on some of their investments.  

3) *Free trade agreements: *No one really buys into the political spin that the UK will renegotiate all their trade agreements and therefore business will look outside the UK to manage this.  Given that the size of the Indian economy and its growth far exceeds the UK, they think they can negotiate a better trade agreement than a smaller UK.  There will be a number of Industry bodies from France, Germany etc that will start queuing up to sign up and provide the next 'springboard'. Switzerland with existing connection may be better placed to replace the UK as that springboard despite being outside the 'core EU'


4) *Relevance of the UK*:  Currently the UK punches far above its weight on the world scene. There are many historical, strategic, military, financial reasons for that.  One of those pillars is the UK role in EU which amplifies its size many times over. Without this amplifying effect it reduces that significance in the modern world.  If the UK opts out, it is highly likely that the Salmon, Sturgeon & Co will force Scotland out of the UK thereby making it even smaller a la Iceland - and who remembers Iceland after their world dominating banks disappeared? 


The reality is that *no one really knows *what the impact of the exit would be.  The consensus was that with a weaker pound and a common language, the rUK will be good for tourism and education. But beyond that, the business prospects within rUK will be much smaller and less profitable.  The strength of the currency is speculative, but likely to go down over a period of time.  Everyone is hoping that Joe public will ignore the political rhetoric and vote to stay in.  If UK votes to stay in, there will be some firecrackers being set off in celebration - just as some folks did when Scotland decided to stay. India does have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay inside the EU as it sees UK as a much stronger business proposition than a smaller rUK.
		
Click to expand...

I just don't get this 'Our power is amplified inside the EU'  How does that work then?  We are in a minority position and are consistently outvoted on policy issues.   The recent embarrassing grovelling for concessions by our prime minister was a true reflection of how much say and power we have in the EU.   We cant even decide what level of benefits we give  to foreigners.   I despair at other countries telling us what is good for us when they would never accept such rules and regulations themselves.     Our future is for ourselves, not what others think is in their best interests.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 25, 2016)

It seems that not everything in the TTIP garden is as rosy as the government would like us to believe.........

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...und-it-had-lots-of-risks-and-no-a6999646.html


----------



## drdel (Apr 25, 2016)

India, like many other countries, find the UK a significant market.  Obviously they would prefer less uncertainty.

However our MEPs have constantly been on the loosing side when voting in Brussels. So the EU can hardly claim to have made decisions in the UK's interests (assuming our MEPs reflected our interest).

The EU has fundamental problems which the ECB has been trying to solve by printing money - this is not sustainable and Germany is already trying to get the ECB to revise their strategy but the ECB's is not accountable.  The Eurozone members are very concerned by Brexit because of the 'house of cards' based on the unsustainable debts that the ECB and the IMF continue to let rise.

If the UK remains part of the EU the UK will be forced to accept a large part of this huge increasing debt.

In my opinion, the EU's uncontrolled debt mountain is a far bigger risk than empty threats from other countries who are concerned with short term currency fluctuation and will not want to stop exporting to the UK.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 28, 2016)

Interesting bit on the news.

Should ex-pats get a vote in the referendum? I think so, especially those living in Europe as they will be on the "front line" for any changes in our relationship with the EU.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Apr 28, 2016)

FD - They do if they are an ex-pat and they left the UK within the last 15yrs. People who have lived out of the country for longer than 15yrs lost their case for a vote today in a judgement. Quite right too. You left. Game over. If you want to influence what happens in a country in an election then live there, pay your taxes there. You can't move away, contribute nothing more but still expect to hold influence when the consequences will not directly affect you. Personally I would have the ex-pat limit at 5yrs, not 15yrs but that is not going to change for this vote.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 28, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			FD - They do if they are an ex-pat and they left the UK within the last 15yrs. People who have lived out of the country for longer than 15yrs lost their case for a vote today in a judgement. Quite right too. You left. Game over. If you want to influence what happens in a country in an election then live there, pay your taxes there. You can't move away, contribute nothing more but still expect to hold influence when the consequences will not directly affect you. Personally I would have the ex-pat limit at 5yrs, not 15yrs but that is not going to change for this vote.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, cheers. I caught the end of that so assumed it was all ex-pats.

Can't agree with your assessment, though. Yes in terms of a general election but not a referendum of this nature.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Apr 28, 2016)

Why should they influence what happens to the UK when they have left? They will not bear the consequences. I understand why 5yrs may be too harsh but the current limit of 15yrs is more than enough to work out if you are going to come back or not. If you have lived in another country for 15 yrs it tends to suggest that is your home now and you should not be able to affect what happens here any more.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ah, cheers. I caught the end of that so assumed it was all ex-pats.

Can't agree with your assessment, though. Yes in terms of a general election but not a referendum of this nature.
		
Click to expand...

Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum?  I left Scotland in 1984.  But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.


----------



## NWJocko (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum?  I left Scotland in 1984.  But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.
		
Click to expand...

Not in my view.

From your other thread the POTUS elections are important to you, would you like a vote in that aswell?!

I agree that those who have made their bed elsewhere shouldn't have a vote, just as I shouldn't in the Scottish referendum.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			Not in my view.

From your other thread the POTUS elections are important to you, would you like a vote in that aswell?!

I agree that those who have made their bed elsewhere shouldn't have a vote, just as I shouldn't in the Scottish referendum.
		
Click to expand...

As it happens in the end I reconciled myself with not having a vote.  My argument was the outcome *would* affect me  - albeit through my mother - but realised that that argument could probably be used by every ex-pat - and on these grounds I accepted I was out.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum?  I left Scotland in 1984.  But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.
		
Click to expand...

Arguably yes. I saw this one both ways at the time. Different from the ex-pats though as it wouldn't have impacted your situation as a British citizen living in England.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Arguably yes. I saw this one both ways at the time. Different from the ex-pats though as it wouldn't have impacted your situation as a British citizen living in England.
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts at the time were that with an elderly mother and being the eldest son - what happens in Scotland politically and hence in respect of care for the elderly, Scottish NHS etc would impact me as a knock on effect from how it might affect my mother.  And that is exactly how it is today.  My mother is in E-o-L (palliative) care in Glasgow (all praise to the Scottish NHS btw as the care she is being given is exemplary - with kindness and compassion at it's heart).  Significant changes to her care circumstances tomorrow would impact upon me the day after.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum?  I left Scotland in 1984.  But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it important to you if you don't live there anymore?   If there was a vote to make England independent would you feel entitled to a vote?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Why is it important to you if you don't live there anymore?   If there was a vote to make England independent would you feel entitled to a vote?
		
Click to expand...

I explained why I felt it important at the time - I also mentioned that I reconciled myself back then with not having a vote.  On the EU? Ex-pats probably not - but if they can up to 15yrs away then that's how it is.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum?  I left Scotland in 1984.  But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely yes. Scottish by birth, and it was more than just a political thing to so many people.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

Latest poll suggests that England and Wales will vote narrowly for leave, NI narrowly for stay and Scotland strongly for stay.
Add it all up and it will be a narrow win for stay.

Seems like this 'Better Together' thing is finally working.:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (May 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest poll suggests that England and Wales will vote narrowly for leave, NI narrowly for stay and Scotland strongly for stay.
Add it all up and it will be a narrow win for stay.

Seems like this 'Better Together' thing is finally working.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

You sound a bit desperate.  It will be what it will be and polls are not will not be accurate.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You sound a bit desperate.  It will be what it will be and polls are not will not be accurate.
		
Click to expand...

I know, but that particular outcome really appeals to me [hence weee smiley]


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2016)

Can we expect calls for an English and Welsh independence referendum from those on the Leave side if Scotland voting to stay in is the deciding factor in the overall vote?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can we expect calls for an English and Welsh independence referendum from those on the Leave side if Scotland voting to stay in is the deciding factor in the overall vote?
		
Click to expand...

Probably.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know, but that particular outcome really appeals to me [hence weee smiley]
		
Click to expand...

So what are your personal reasons for wanting to stay in?


----------



## SocketRocket (May 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know, but that particular outcome really appeals to me [hence weee smiley]
		
Click to expand...

So it's your dislike of the English that's your main reason?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely yes. Scottish by birth, and it was more than just a political thing to so many people.
		
Click to expand...

That was my original line of thinking - that referendum was much, much more fundamental that any election or indeed a being in or out of the EU.  But hey - maybe next time


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's your dislike of the English that's your main reason?
		
Click to expand...

Eh......how did even you come to that conclusion.

I actually quite like the English with the odd exception like EDL/UKIP/ Right Wing Tory types.
Mind you I think most of the English dislike them as well.:lol:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

drive4show said:



			So what are your personal reasons for wanting to stay in?
		
Click to expand...

Many, but mainly that Scotland will get a better deal within the  EU than it would out of it [via Westminster].


----------



## SocketRocket (May 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Many, but mainly that Scotland will get a better deal within the  EU than it would out of it [via Westminster].
		
Click to expand...

Westminster wont go away if we stay in and with the level of devolution Scotland is getting whats the problem?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Westminster wont go away if we stay in and with the level of devolution Scotland is getting whats the problem?
		
Click to expand...

That is the problem, the level of devolution that the Tory government have 'allowed' the Scots
What other reason would there be for such a massive groundswell of support for the SNP.
We were sold a pup with 'The Vow' and within hours of the referendum result we had Cameron waffling on about EVEL.
Does the fact that no Scottish MP will ever be PM in the future not alarm you.


----------



## Fish (May 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is the problem, the level of devolution that the Tory government have 'allowed' the Scots
What other reason would there be for such a massive groundswell of support for the SNP.
We were sold a pup with 'The Vow' and within hours of the referendum result we had Cameron waffling on about EVEL.
Does the fact that no Scottish MP will ever be PM in the future not alarm you.
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't Gordon Brown Scottish and then did his best to bankrupt the country with his boom & bust!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2016)

fish said:



			wasn't gordon brown scottish and then did his best to bankrupt the country with his boom & bust!
		
Click to expand...

wooooooosh.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2016)

Fish said:



			Wasn't Gordon Brown Scottish and then did his best to bankrupt the country with his boom & bust!
		
Click to expand...

That' it - Broon caused the banks to go pop - was never anything to do with the bankers - it was all Broon's fault that we taxpayers have had to fork out Â£Â£Â£Billions to keep the banks afloat.

But as DfT says - I find it disgraceful that never again will a Scottish MP be able to hold a significant Wesminster cabinet role in a One-UK government.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But as DfT says - I find it disgraceful that never again will a Scottish MP be able to hold a significant Wesminster cabinet role in a One-UK government.
		
Click to expand...


Not quite sure how you can conclude that... After all, if Clegg can be deputy PM anything is possible...


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Many, but mainly that Scotland will get a better deal within the  EU.
		
Click to expand...

They said last time they wouldn't let you into the club. Is it different this time as they would like you to make up the short fall from a UK leave. Good luck on that one.


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I actually quite like the English with the odd exception like EDL/UKIP/ Right Wing Tory types.
		
Click to expand...

I presume your quite happy with the left wing racists and extremists then.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I presume your quite happy with the left wing racists and extremists then.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, I don't like them either.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They said last time they wouldn't let you into the club. Is it different this time as they would like you to make up the short fall from a UK leave. Good luck on that one.
		
Click to expand...

What UK leave?
Nothing has changed.
No Indyref two if UK stays in EU.
You seem to be forgetting that in 2014 Cameron/Clegg/Miliband/Brown told Scotland that the only way to stay in the EU was with a No vote.
Trust us they said.


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What UK leave?

No Indyref two if UK stays in EU.
		
Click to expand...

They only stay if the young vote is mobalised.

What makes you so sure that there would be one if UK leave. The minority can howl at the moon as much as they like but a referendum will not be in the howlers hands.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They only stay if the young vote is mobalised.

What makes you so sure that there would be one if UK leave. The minority can howl at the moon as much as they like but a referendum will not be in the howlers hands.
		
Click to expand...

As Nicola keeps saying the UK Leave vote is a trigger for Indyref 2 but only if the Scots public demand it.
We have this strange situation in Scotland where the government actually listens to the public. Hard to believe I know but it seems to work.
A Stay vote means the pressure for Indyref 2 would be lessened. Most agree it is far too close to 2014 and would result in another close call. just a bit of tub thumping by the SNP and tends to keep the opposition on their toes.

IMO 2020 seems like the best time to call the second independence vote. It will also coincide with the 300 year anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath.

The time lag gives the new Tory leader a chance to right a wrong and perhaps keep the UK united.  Can't see that myself but you never know.
BTW sorry to break the news to you but, two years down, the minority is probably the majority now.


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW sorry to break the news to you but, two years down, the minority is probably the majority now.
		
Click to expand...

So your basing this on a probably and not a defiantly. Is this a bit like the probability of remain winning. Just about sums it up.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That' it - Broon caused the banks to go pop - was never anything to do with the bankers - it was all Broon's fault that we taxpayers have had to fork out Â£Â£Â£Billions to keep the banks afloat.

But as DfT says - I find it disgraceful that never again will a Scottish MP be able to hold a significant Wesminster cabinet role in a One-UK government.
		
Click to expand...

I quite fancy Fox for PM after we leave the EU.


Regarding Doon's fantasising about Indy2, it will only happen if the UK parliament say it will, not Nicola.  So wont happen.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I quite fancy Fox for PM after we leave the EU.


Regarding Doon's fantasising about Indy2, it will only happen if the UK parliament say it will, not Nicola.  So wont happen.
		
Click to expand...

Who mentioned Nicola
 I said the Scots people will call it.


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Who mentioned Nicola
 I said the Scots people will call it.
		
Click to expand...

So not the people living in Scotland then.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Who mentioned Nicola
 I said the Scots people will call it.
		
Click to expand...

The Scots people can call all they like but only the Westminster Parliament will allow it so as I said, it wont happen.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Scots people can call all they like but only the Westminster Parliament will allow it so as I said, it wont happen.
		
Click to expand...

Aye right


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What UK leave?
Nothing has changed.
No Indyref two if UK stays in EU.
You seem to be forgetting that in 2014 Cameron/Clegg/Miliband/Brown told Scotland that the only way to stay in the EU was with a No vote.
Trust us they said.
		
Click to expand...

Aye - if Davidson et al want to portray a bit of Salmond talking things up to get the YES Indy ref vote out with his 'once in a generation' stuff as a 'promise' (still don't get how that is a 'promise') - so the SNP can equally portray the 'vote NO to stay in the EU' as a 'promise' that will be broken if the UK Brexits.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Scots people can call all they like but only the Westminster Parliament will allow it so as I said, it wont happen.
		
Click to expand...

Which is exactly the sort of statement from 'down south' that will make Indyref2 even more likely to happen.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2016)

With a bit of cross-pollination from the Scottish Election 2016 thread I'm loving that a big _Remain _majority in Scotland could overturn a narrow _Leave_ majority in the rUK.  Oh what an irony with Westminster and _Better Together _Tories who want out of the EU being kept in it by those lovable Scots - the same who won't get another IndyRef because Westminster won't grant the Scots one - or maybe it will if _Remain_ wins the day on the votes of the Scots.


----------



## Old Skier (May 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With a bit of cross-pollination from the Scottish Election 2016 thread I'm loving that a big _Remain _majority in Scotland could overturn a narrow _Leave_ majority in the rUK.  Oh what an irony with Westminster and _Better Together _Tories who want out of the EU being kept in it by those lovable Scots - the same who won't get another IndyRef because Westminster won't grant the Scots one - or maybe it will if _Remain_ wins the day on the votes of the Scots.
		
Click to expand...

Where are you getting your factual info from, a poll that many on here have said time and again that it's to early for them to be anywhere near relevant and in recent years have been wrong.

We will only really know after the vote and may not even be published by region.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is exactly the sort of statement from 'down south' that will make Indyref2 even more likely to happen.
		
Click to expand...

But how?  The Scotts cannot call a referendum, it has to be through the Westminster Parliament who have already called one recently.

PS, I'm sure my statement on a Golf Forum wont stir up too many sporrans Oo'p North.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye right 

Click to expand...

Aye right enough


----------



## SocketRocket (May 2, 2016)

Funny how the UK referendum on EU membership has suddenly turned into a Scottish issue


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We have this strange situation in Scotland where the government actually listens to the public.
		
Click to expand...

Nonsense!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Funny how the UK referendum on EU membership has suddenly turned into a Scottish issue 

Click to expand...

Because UK Tory, Labour and LibDem leaders told Scotland referendum voters in 2014 that the only way to ensure we stayed in Europe was by voting NO.
They even signed a vow.

The Scots votes could be decisive to the Remain campaign.

So yes, it is very much a Scottish issue, no matter how much you attempt to sideline it.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 3, 2016)

"Why is it always about me" - Mario Balotelli or the Scottish electorate? The vote is about the whole of the UK, not just one part of it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			"Why is it always about me" - Mario Balotelli or the Scottish electorate? The vote is about the whole of the UK, not just one part of it.
		
Click to expand...

Except in Scotland it isn't that simple.  Because what happens in Westminster is in many respects of much less importance than what happens in Holyrood and being In/Out of the EU is tied up with what happens in Holyrood - and what was promised on EU membership by _Better Together_ during the IndyRef.  

It's not forgotten that one of the main _BT _arguments was that an IndyScot couldn't just expect to be admitted into the EU - indeed _BT_ suggested an IndyScot would be out of the EU for quite some time before being admitted.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 3, 2016)

Even though I am still fairly certain I'll be voting out... 
I am fairly confident also, the powers that be WILL find ways of keeping us in...

Right now, way more concerned London won't get the Mayor it needs...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Even though I am still fairly certain I'll be voting out... 
I am fairly confident also, the powers that be WILL find ways of keeping us in...

Right now, way more concerned London won't get the Mayor it needs...
		
Click to expand...

Well as far as London Mayor is concerned anyone could do a better job that the current incumbent - who seems to be unhinged ... sorry - disconnected .. from delivering his responsibilities


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

As concerns over immigration will I think be the determining factor for many on how they vote - here's an IN argument with some facts.  

Yes of course _Remain _*would *say this - will say the Brexiteers - but can we just all accept for a moment that some FACTS are being presented as part of an argument rather than just assertion and supposition.  To counter let's have some FACTS from _Leave _presented that debunk this analysis.

http://infacts.org/eu-migrants-stop-nhs-flatlining/


----------



## Hobbit (May 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As concerns over immigration will I think be the determining factor for many on how they vote - here's an IN argument with some facts.  

Yes of course _Remain _*would *say this - will say the Brexiteers - but can we just all accept for a moment that some FACTS are being presented as part of an argument rather than just assertion and supposition.  To counter let's have some FACTS from _Leave _presented that debunk this analysis.

http://infacts.org/eu-migrants-stop-nhs-flatlining/

Click to expand...

Immigration isn't the factor behind my choice. But I feel the document mixes, and spins, facts and numbers to justify its argument. I don't doubt some of the numbers are very definitive but its the spin, just like the leavers, that pee's me off no end. 

For example, "increased numbers turning up at A&E do not cause longer waiting times." What is that supposed to mean? Does the tooth fairy treat the extra patients? Whatever the reason behind it not causing longer waiting times, it isn't explained. That's assuming its a fact, and I'm not saying it isn't. But its the blind faith of believe it. Where is the explanation?

Whether its the Remain or the Leave camp, neither are putting any meat behind their statements. 

If that link you posted is good enough for you, fine I don't have a problem with that. It isn't good enough for me because its shallow. 

But a question back at you, and I'm not seeking to justify an argument against immigration because it isn't an issue for me. If immigration isn't causing issues with our infrastructure why have a number of Local Education Authorities asked to be permitted to increase class sizes to 40, way above the previous limit? Baby booms? The original baby boom was in the 40's, and repeated every 20-ish years thereafter. That cycle isn't due its next boom for another 10 years... so where is the current boom from, the tooth fairies again?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As concerns over immigration will I think be the determining factor for many on how they vote - here's an IN argument with some facts.  

Yes of course _Remain _*would *say this - will say the Brexiteers - but can we just all accept for a moment that some FACTS are being presented as part of an argument rather than just assertion and supposition.  To counter let's have some FACTS from _Leave _presented that debunk this analysis.

http://infacts.org/eu-migrants-stop-nhs-flatlining/

Click to expand...

Interesting article and full of the usual nonsense.

When will you understand that we do NOT need immigrants to fill the low paid jobs as long as we have lazy British nationals sitting at home on benefits because we give them the easy option of unemployment being a career choice?

In simple terms.......

Remove all the immigrants (I'm not suggesting that we do that btw) and stop paying benefits to all the lazy Brits sat at home and they can then do the jobs the immigrants were doing. Hey presto.....reduced benefits bill and the same amount of tax paid into the system. What's not to like?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Immigration isn't the factor behind my choice. But I feel the document mixes, and spins, facts and numbers to justify its argument. I don't doubt some of the numbers are very definitive but its the spin, just like the leavers, that pee's me off no end. 

For example, "increased numbers turning up at A&E do not cause longer waiting times." What is that supposed to mean? Does the tooth fairy treat the extra patients? Whatever the reason behind it not causing longer waiting times, it isn't explained. That's assuming its a fact, and I'm not saying it isn't. But its the blind faith of believe it. Where is the explanation?

Whether its the Remain or the Leave camp, neither are putting any meat behind their statements. 

If that link you posted is good enough for you, fine I don't have a problem with that. It isn't good enough for me because its shallow. 

But a question back at you, and I'm not seeking to justify an argument against immigration because it isn't an issue for me. If immigration isn't causing issues with our infrastructure why have a number of Local Education Authorities asked to be permitted to increase class sizes to 40, way above the previous limit? *Baby booms? The original baby boom was in the 40's, and repeated every 20-ish years thereafter. That cycle isn't due its next boom for another 10 years... so where is the current boom from, the tooth fairies again?*

Click to expand...

I don't know the answer to this.  Anecdotally I know that in one of our local primary school number of kids coming into reception fell a few years back; the number of reception classes and teachers was therefore reduced; and now numbers they are increasing - and not it seems due to immigration.  But no funding for additional teachers and new build classrooms (previous classrooms not required were portacabin-type and were demolished when no longer needed) - so need for much larger reception, Yr 1 and Yr 2 class sizes - albeit it temporarily.

But of course where there is immigration pressures on schools _all_ that needs doing is funding the building of more classrooms or more schools - but wherefore art thou funds in the face of austerity cuts?  And where making schools academies fits into that I don't know - especially if academies can pick and choose; or can decide whether they want to grow or not.

And the increased numbers in A&E does not necessarily cause waiting times to increase - lack of provision to deal with the increase in numbers does - or reduced provision to deal with the same numbers would.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interesting article and full of the usual nonsense.

When will you understand that we do NOT need immigrants to fill the low paid jobs as long as we have lazy British nationals sitting at home on benefits because we give them the easy option of unemployment being a career choice?

In simple terms.......

Remove all the immigrants (I'm not suggesting that we do that btw) and *stop paying benefits to all the lazy Brits sat at home and they can then do the jobs the immigrants were doing.* Hey presto.....reduced benefits bill and the same amount of tax paid into the system. What's not to like?
		
Click to expand...

So this is part of the _Leave_ manifesto is it?  If not - then we continue to need immigrants to fill the vacancies.  Besides -on just the NHS nursing aspect - we can't train or recruit sufficient nurses here in the UK and the Gov has just made it harder by slashing budgets for agency nurses - so that source of UK-based nurses can no longer be tapped in to  as much as it has been over the last 20yrs; and by making traineee nurses pay their degree fees - as if nursing was 'just another job'.  So the NHS has to employ many thousands of trained nurses from overseas - each and every one an immigrant.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So this is part of the _Leave_ manifesto is it?  If not - then we continue to need immigrants to fill the vacancies.  Besides -on just the NHS nursing aspect - we can't train or recruit sufficient nurses here in the UK and the Gov has just made it harder by slashing budgets for agency nurses - so that source of UK-based nurses can no longer be tapped in to  as much as it has been over the last 20yrs; and by making traineee nurses pay their degree fees - as if nursing was 'just another job'.  So the NHS has to employ many thousands of trained nurses from overseas - each and every one an immigrant.
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea if it is a manifesto issue as I haven't read either in depth.

Regarding training of nurses, that is a policy issue with British governments and it is within our control to change, we don't need to be in or out of the EU for that to be changed.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 3, 2016)

I'm not sure that I've heard anyone on the Leave side say that we should totally stop immigration but more that we should move towards a points based system whereby we give a weighting to the roles we need to fill such as nurses or doctors etc. Even as someone that currently supports staying in the EU I don't see that as a bad thing. Why should we allow in low or un skilled workers when those roles could be filled by UK nationals? And if the time came when we needed cleaners or people to work on farms then those jobs points rating could be changed to accommodate that need.


----------



## Hobbit (May 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know the answer to this.  Anecdotally I know that in one of our local primary school number of kids coming into reception fell a few years back; the number of reception classes and teachers was therefore reduced; and now numbers they are increasing - and not it seems due to immigration.  But no funding for additional teachers and new build classrooms (previous classrooms not required were portacabin-type and were demolished when no longer needed) - so need for much larger reception, Yr 1 and Yr 2 class sizes - albeit it temporarily.

But of course where there is immigration pressures on schools _all_ that needs doing is funding the building of more classrooms or more schools - but wherefore art thou funds in the face of austerity cuts?  And where making schools academies fits into that I don't know - especially if academies can pick and choose; or can decide whether they want to grow or not.

And the increased numbers in A&E does not necessarily cause waiting times to increase - lack of provision to deal with the increase in numbers does - or reduced provision to deal with the same numbers would.
		
Click to expand...

Numbers will drop between booms, hence what your local school experienced. It's the current, unexpected, boom that has caught out the LEA's. Not even 4 years from birth, but fully formed children turning up at the school gates. Building new schools/classrooms instantly is impossible.

An increase in numbers turning up at A&E must cause a greater delay. And more staff won't help. You still need an examination cubicle.

A question about immigrants, not immigration. How many immigrants turn up and have a job from the minute they step off the boat? Are there really over 300,000 jobs just waiting for these new arrivals? I don't doubt the accuracy of immigrants paying tax, but does it make it fair that so many turn up and go straight onto benefits? There is a reason why the retirement age has risen to 67. If immigration was controlled/restricted to those who are coming in to work... sorted.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2016)

Re straight on to benefits 
I believe that immigrants have to have 3 months residency before they can claim any benefits.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re straight on to benefits 
I believe that immigrants have to have 3 months residency before they can claim any benefits.
		
Click to expand...

What about the Emergency Brake Cameron negotiated

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-emergency-brake/

_
The EU deal suggests changing EU rules to set up a so-called â€˜emergency brakeâ€™ (officially referred to as the â€˜alert and safeguardâ€™ mechanism).

Under the proposal, any member country could notify EU authorities that it has experienced an inflow of workers of â€œexceptional magnitudeâ€ over â€œan extended period of timeâ€; and that:

the size of the inflow affects â€œessential aspects of its social security systemâ€; or
leads to serious difficulties in its employment market; or
is putting â€œexcessive pressureâ€ on public services.
In those circumstances EU lawmakers could authorise that country to restrict in-work benefits for new migrant workers for up to four years after they start working. They wouldnâ€™t have to give their permission.

If they did, exclusion from such benefits would be phased out over time: it would be absolute to start with but benefits would gradually increase.

These restrictions wouldnâ€™t apply to immigrants already working here.

But they could be kept in place for "EU workers arriving during a period of 7 years" after the brake is triggered._


----------



## Hobbit (May 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re straight on to benefits 
I believe that immigrants have to have 3 months residency before they can claim any benefits.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What about the Emergency Brake Cameron negotiated

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-emergency-brake/

_
The EU deal suggests changing EU rules to set up a so-called â€˜emergency brakeâ€™ (officially referred to as the â€˜alert and safeguardâ€™ mechanism).

Under the proposal, any member country could notify EU authorities that it has experienced an inflow of workers of â€œexceptional magnitudeâ€ over â€œan extended period of timeâ€; and that:

the size of the inflow affects â€œessential aspects of its social security systemâ€; or
leads to serious difficulties in its employment market; or
is putting â€œexcessive pressureâ€ on public services.
In those circumstances EU lawmakers could authorise that country to restrict in-work benefits for new migrant workers for up to four years after they start working. They wouldnâ€™t have to give their permission.

If they did, exclusion from such benefits would be phased out over time: it would be absolute to start with but benefits would gradually increase.

These restrictions wouldnâ€™t apply to immigrants already working here.

But they could be kept in place for "EU workers arriving during a period of 7 years" after the brake is triggered._

Click to expand...

All a claimant has to do is say they can't support themselves. 264,000 non-EU immigrants went straight onto benefits in 2014. A further 140,000 EU citizens went straight onto benefits. From the DWP's own website.

As as for the emergency brake negotiated by DC. None of the terms have been ratified by the EU yet. I don't believe they'll be ratified.

And to draw a comparison, has Westminster honoured its promises post-Scot referendum? Do you believe DC on the EU terms after what has happened post-Scot referendum?


----------



## SocketRocket (May 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As concerns over immigration will I think be the determining factor for many on how they vote - here's an IN argument with some facts.  

Yes of course _Remain _*would *say this - will say the Brexiteers - but can we just all accept for a moment that some FACTS are being presented as part of an argument rather than just assertion and supposition.  To counter let's have some FACTS from _Leave _presented that debunk this analysis.

http://infacts.org/eu-migrants-stop-nhs-flatlining/

Click to expand...

You call these 'FACTS' but to me they are just a bunch of half truths and opinions. But I would say that wouldn't I 

Lets take a look at some of these so called facts:

Looking at the contributions immigrants make to the Exchequer is not what is being suggested in that article.  If you look at all immigration over a slightly longer period like 30/40 years you will see that there is a huge cost.   New migrants tend to be young single people who do not take a great deal in benefits and make a very small net contribution.  But they don't stay young, as they marry and have children they start to take in-work benefits, as they age their children cost more, they cost more as they need additional health care and state pensions etc.  So how will their age related costs be met; would you suggest by bringing in more immigrants?   That is a very naive and ill though through proposition.

Regarding the NHS.  We have been robbing poor countries of their trained Nurses and Doctors for some time and IMO this is a National disgrace that we should be thoroughly ashamed of.  These poor countries have paid to train these people and we poach them away then use the act as some kind of badge of pride on how our NHS would not exist without them.   What about their health service :angry:   We have been lazy and selfish in not putting enough money into training and supporting our health professionals, there were 57,000 applicants who tried to train as a nurse, but 37,000 were rejected, surely they were not all unsuitable.   We also spent Â£3.3 Billion on using Agency Nurses, how crazy is that!

No one is suggesting we stop immigration but many people are unhappy with the current levels of over 300,00 net per annum and many believe it's much larger than that as the counting method is flawed and the number of NI numbers we issue per year is more like 600,000.   A points based system has to be the best way to ensure we only bring in numbers of people we need, are the best available or have the most pressing needs for support.   How can this not be the best way to manage it and does anyone actually think open door immigration is a good thing?

So there are a few counter points, call them facts or opinion it's all the same.


----------



## Ethan (May 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You call these 'FACTS' but to me they are just a bunch of half truths and opinions. But I would say that wouldn't I 

Lets take a look at some of these so called facts:

Looking at the contributions immigrants make to the Exchequer is not what is being suggested in that article.  If you look at all immigration over a slightly longer period like 30/40 years you will see that there is a huge cost.   New migrants tend to be young single people who do not take a great deal in benefits and make a very small net contribution.  But they don't stay young, as they marry and have children they start to take in-work benefits, as they age their children cost more, they cost more as they need additional health care and state pensions etc.  So how will their age related costs be met; would you suggest by bringing in more immigrants?   That is a very naive and ill though through proposition.

Regarding the NHS.  We have been robbing poor countries of their trained Nurses and Doctors for some time and IMO this is a National disgrace that we should be thoroughly ashamed of.  These poor countries have paid to train these people and we poach them away then use the act as some kind of badge of pride on how our NHS would not exist without them.   What about their health service :angry:   We have been lazy and selfish in not putting enough money into training and supporting our health professionals, there were 57,000 applicants who tried to train as a nurse, but 37,000 were rejected, surely they were not all unsuitable.   We also spent Â£3.3 Billion on using Agency Nurses, how crazy is that!

No one is suggesting we stop immigration but many people are unhappy with the current levels of over 300,00 net per annum and many believe it's much larger than that as the counting method is flawed and the number of NI numbers we issue per year is more like 600,000.   A points based system has to be the best way to ensure we only bring in numbers of people we need, are the best available or have the most pressing needs for support.   How can this not be the best way to manage it and does anyone actually think open door immigration is a good thing?

So there are a few counter points, call them facts or opinion it's all the same.
		
Click to expand...

So you are saying young people get older. Well, that changes everything.

Obviously they get older, but do so after a long period of contribution. Immigrants also have more kids than indigenous, so they bring new young people into the mix and reduce the rate at which the demographic imbalance is bringing us towards catastrophe. Germany realised this and encouraged immigration.

The NHS does indeed plunder overseas countries for staff, and is going to have to do so even more in the near future, especially for junior doctors. Agency staff usage is a barometer of morale in the NHS, which is at an all time low. The UK could train enough nurses if the conditions were right.

People are unhappy with the current levels of immigration because they have been told to be unhappy and that immigrants are responsible for the ills of the country. In times of economic stress, countries always blame Johnny Foreigner for their problems. In my opinion, The Tory Party is responsible for most of the ills.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you are saying young people get older. Well, that changes everything.

Obviously they get older, but do so after a long period of contribution. Immigrants also have more kids than indigenous, so they bring new young people into the mix and reduce the rate at which the demographic imbalance is bringing us towards catastrophe. Germany realised this and encouraged immigration.

The NHS does indeed plunder overseas countries for staff, and is going to have to do so even more in the near future, especially for junior doctors. Agency staff usage is a barometer of morale in the NHS, which is at an all time low. The UK could train enough nurses if the conditions were right.

People are unhappy with the current levels of immigration because they have been told to be unhappy and that immigrants are responsible for the ills of the country. In times of economic stress, countries always blame Johnny Foreigner for their problems. In my opinion, The Tory Party is responsible for most of the ills.
		
Click to expand...

Immigrants getting older do indeed change everything as their costs to the exchequer become higher, much higher and the contribution they make while younger is overall very small indeed.

People are worried about the high levels of immigration because of the way it affects their lives, by the way they see their communities are becoming pressurised, by the draw down effect on wages and many things that you probably dont experience in your upper middle class lifestyle.    Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance.   "In times of economic stress"  Where did you experience that then?  probably straight out of the pages of the Guardian.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			So you are saying young people get older. Well, that changes everything.

Obviously they get older, but do so after a long period of contribution. Immigrants also have more kids than indigenous, so they bring new young people into the mix and reduce the rate at which the demographic imbalance is bringing us towards catastrophe. Germany realised this and encouraged immigration.

The NHS does indeed plunder overseas countries for staff, and is going to have to do so even more in the near future, especially for junior doctors. Agency staff usage is a barometer of morale in the NHS, which is at an all time low. The UK could train enough nurses if the conditions were right.

*People are unhappy with the current levels of immigration because they have been told to be unhappy and that immigrants are responsible for the ills of the country. In times of economic stress, countries always blame Johnny Foreigner for their problems. In my opinion, The Tory Party is responsible for most of the ills.*

Click to expand...

I fear that there is much to this.  Since the 80s there seems to have developed huge feelings of 'entitlement' across great swathes of the UK.  And when those feelings of entitlement are no longer being satisfied folks get angry, frustrated and resentful - and look to find something or someone to blame - often ignoring the fact that a large part of the solution may be much closer home - themselves.  And so we have immigrants and the EU being blamed by so many for the woes, resentments and jealousies that they feel.  And thinking that leaving the EU and slashing immigration will solve all their own personal issues.  And it won't.


----------



## jp5 (May 4, 2016)

Insulting to suggest that people are unhappy with immigration levels merely because they've been told to be so.

It's reasonable to be concerned by an immigration policy that would require 10 new cities the size of Nottingham by 2030 to house those that arrive. And yet town development has been on the back-burners since the 70s.

All but the least informed will agree that immigration is beneficial, but needs to be managed in a sustainable manner - for both the nations of destination and origin - which doesn't seem to happening right now.


----------



## Ethan (May 4, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Insulting to suggest that people are unhappy with immigration levels merely because they've been told to be so.

It's reasonable to be concerned by an immigration policy that would require 10 new cities the size of Nottingham by 2030 to house those that arrive. And yet town development has been on the back-burners since the 70s.

All but the least informed will agree that immigration is beneficial, but needs to be managed in a sustainable manner - for both the nations of destination and origin - which doesn't seem to happening right now.
		
Click to expand...

You are making two separate points.

Immigrants have always been the go-to scapegoats when things get tough. It has happened with repeated waves of immigrants into the US, and more recently in various European countries. It is convenient to blame immigrants for failing public services rather than Govt policy which people understand less well than they understand hearing more strange accents or seeing people that don't look like them.

I have been to Nottingham, and wouldn't want to see another 10 of them.


----------



## Ethan (May 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigrants getting older do indeed change everything as their costs to the exchequer become higher, much higher and the contribution they make while younger is overall very small indeed.

People are worried about the high levels of immigration because of the way it affects their lives, by the way they see their communities are becoming pressurised, by the draw down effect on wages and many things that you probably dont experience in your upper middle class lifestyle.    Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance.   "In times of economic stress"  Where did you experience that then?  probably straight out of the pages of the Guardian. 

Click to expand...

I thought you disapproved of ad hominem attacks? Except when you make them? If you don't stop I will ask my valet to draft a stern letter. 


And to retort: 
Politicians and xenophones make me sick when they tell others that everything going wrong is due to immigrants, rather than their own fecklessness, looking out through their racist goggles and suggesting (that) any opinion counter to their own is one of middle class privilege.


----------



## jp5 (May 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are making two separate points.

Immigrants have always been the go-to scapegoats when things get tough. It has happened with repeated waves of immigrants into the US, and more recently in various European countries. It is convenient to blame immigrants for failing public services rather than Govt policy which people understand less well than they understand hearing more strange accents or seeing people that don't look like them.

I have been to Nottingham, and wouldn't want to see another 10 of them.
		
Click to expand...

You talk in extremes, as if all you see when people speak in opposition of current immigration levels are xenophobes, racists, and people who blame immigrants for all their woes.

But it's reasonable to dispassionately question whether an open door immigration policy is right for our country, and the continent of Europe as a whole. Is a million people every 3 years sustainable with our services and housing policies? Is it fair or helpful on poorer nations which see the flight of their most skilled workers, often trained up at public expense? Is it right that we are overly strict on non-EU migration?

I don't blame immigrants for any of the current issues our country has. But I do wonder if our arrangement is truly in our best interests, and the interests of other countries.


----------



## Hobbit (May 4, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You talk in extremes, as if all you see when people speak in opposition of current immigration levels are xenophobes, racists, and people who blame immigrants for all their woes.

But it's reasonable to dispassionately question whether an open door immigration policy is right for our country, and the continent of Europe as a whole. Is a million people every 3 years sustainable with our services and housing policies? Is it fair or helpful on poorer nations which see the flight of their most skilled workers, often trained up at public expense? Is it right that we are overly strict on non-EU migration?

I don't blame immigrants for any of the current issues our country has. But I do wonder if our arrangement is truly in our best interests, and the interests of other countries.
		
Click to expand...

Careful... sounds too reasonable an argument for on here.


----------



## Ethan (May 4, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You talk in extremes, as if all you see when people speak in opposition of current immigration levels are xenophobes, racists, and people who blame immigrants for all their woes.

But it's reasonable to dispassionately question whether an open door immigration policy is right for our country, and the continent of Europe as a whole. Is a million people every 3 years sustainable with our services and housing policies? Is it fair or helpful on poorer nations which see the flight of their most skilled workers, often trained up at public expense? Is it right that we are overly strict on non-EU migration?

I don't blame immigrants for any of the current issues our country has. But I do wonder if our arrangement is truly in our best interests, and the interests of other countries.
		
Click to expand...

I think you missed the extreme point to which I was retorting in like language. 

_Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance. _

The clue was in the 'and to retort' bit. I am sure you will want to have a go at SocketRocket now lest you be seen as a hypocrite.


----------



## jp5 (May 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I think you missed the extreme point to which I was retorting in like language. 

_Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance. _

The clue was in the 'and to retort' bit. I am sure you will want to have a go at SocketRocket now lest you be seen as a hypocrite.
		
Click to expand...

I think you've got your wires a little crossed - at no point did I refer to your "and to retort" post! 

I did take issue with "People are unhappy with the current levels of immigration because they have been told to be unhappy", as if they would be incapable of coming to an independent opinion on the matter.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I think you missed the extreme point to which I was retorting in like language. 

_Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance. _

The clue was in the 'and to retort' bit. I am sure you will want to have a go at SocketRocket now lest you be seen as a hypocrite.
		
Click to expand...

OK, show me some proof that long term immigration makes a worthwhile net financial benefit to the exchequer.  

here is a link to a fairly well balanced report on the subject :  https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/


----------



## Foxholer (May 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, show me some proof that long term immigration makes a worthwhile net financial benefit to the exchequer.  

here is a link to a fairly well balanced report on the subject :  https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

Click to expand...

It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!!  Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!!  Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!
		
Click to expand...

All fine and good that piece you link to - but of course as the UK is a particularly important trading partner to most European countries we will be able to negotiate our own conditions of membership of EFTA/EEA in respect of free movement.  What currently exist for EFTA/EEA countries and access to the single market is not necessarily what the UK will have to agree to - as UK is in a very strong position to negotiate our own very favourable terms (I think that's how the argument goes)


----------



## Foxholer (May 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All fine and good that piece you link to - but of course as the UK is a particularly important trading partner to most European countries we will be able to negotiate our own conditions of membership of EFTA/EEA in respect of free movement.  What currently exist for EFTA/EEA countries and access to the single market is not necessarily what the UK will have to agree to - as UK is in a very strong position to negotiate our own very favourable terms (I think that's how the argument goes)
		
Click to expand...

The Free Movement is such an important - fundamental even - principle to these organisations, that I don't believe that will be possible! 

Btw. There's actually an interesting Select Committee 'interrogation' (with a 'hostile' Chairman!) of Cameron happening right now! Cameron is handling it rather well imo.!


----------



## Hobbit (May 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!
		
Click to expand...

Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."


----------



## SocketRocket (May 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The Free Movement is such an important - fundamental even - principle to these organisations, that I don't believe that will be possible! 

Btw. There's actually an interesting Select Committee 'interrogation' (with a 'hostile' Chairman!) of Cameron happening right now! Cameron is handling it rather well imo.!
		
Click to expand...

Many countries trade with the EU under free trade agreements without the stipulation of the free movement of labour.  There is no doubt in my mind due to the importance of the purchasing power of the UK that a free trade agreement will be negotiated that does not include the FMOL.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 4, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). *It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!*

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!!  Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!
		
Click to expand...

And the cost is significant only because the Non EU immigrants have been here longer and as such cost more, just like the EU ones will in time.    Using high levels of immigration as a stop gap for an ageing population is counter productive and will only make the situation worse in the longer term.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."
		
Click to expand...

Na, everyone already knows how they're going to vote and have done for weeks. Lets get on with it!!


----------



## Foxholer (May 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Many countries trade with the EU under free trade agreements without the stipulation of the free movement of labour.  There is no doubt in my mind due to the importance of the purchasing power of the UK that a free trade agreement will be negotiated that does not include the FMOL.
		
Click to expand...

So are you agreeing the Gove was talking absolute tosh and hadn't a clue what he was committing to when he stated that UK would join EFTA?


----------



## Foxholer (May 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."
		
Click to expand...

I believe it's actually more difficult to present arguments a 'no change' as opposed to a 'let's change' one! The disadvantages of the current setup are much more visible than the advantages - which only become apparent AFTER the 'change' happens!

So the 'it's all because of immigrants' argument is easy to promote, whereas the truth may well be that 'there are too many non-EU family members being allowed to enter UK'!

To me, Gove has proven himself to be clueless about what the REAL solution is and BoJo is just an opportunistic buffoon! Heaven help the country if either of them become PM - but there's small evidence of real opposition! Cameron actually performed extremely well in the Select Committee questioning today!



SocketRocket said:



			And the cost is significant only because the Non EU immigrants have been here longer and as such cost more, just like the EU ones will in time.    Using high levels of immigration as a stop gap for an ageing population is counter productive and will only make the situation worse in the longer term.
		
Click to expand...


Complete wrong! Stop being obsessed with the aging immigrants and become more concerned with those they are allowed to bring in to create a 'family life'!

It's because there's a bleeding sight more of them - and they are Benefit collectors as opposed to Taxation providers!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			So are you agreeing the Gove was talking absolute tosh and hadn't a clue what he was committing to when he stated that UK would join EFTA?
		
Click to expand...

Gove?  Where did you get that from.  I am talking about the raft of countries that currently have free trade agreements with the EU but do not have free movement of labour.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Complete wrong! Stop being obsessed with the aging immigrants and become more concerned with those they are allowed to bring in to create a 'family life'!

It's because there's a bleeding sight more of them - and they are Benefit collectors as opposed to Taxation providers!
		
Click to expand...

You dont seem to be reading my posts, or if you are you are not digesting the content but, rather applying your prejudice and then going off half cocked.

I have explained that what we need is a points based immigration system that  considers all applicants where ever they come from on a level playing field and matched against the skills and numbers this country decides it needs.

Regarding whether they are people who are using the 'Right to a family life' , poached health workers, Roma Gypsies, German Engineers, Serbian taxidermists, Pakistani cooks or Polish Plumbers they all need to be considered by the UK's requirements and that is something a self determining UK will be able to decide.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

Strange old world, it seems it's ok for Scotland to become Independant if the country votes out and then Scotland wants to join the EU to lose most of its independence and gain a failing currency.

The nationalists have a very strange idea of independence.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Strange old world, it seems it's ok for Scotland to become Independant if the country votes out and then Scotland wants to join the EU to lose most of its independence and gain a failing currency.

The nationalists have a very strange idea of independence.
		
Click to expand...

I guess it's deciding what security blanket they want to bail out their economy.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem to be reading my posts, or if you are you are not digesting the content but, rather applying your prejudice and then going off half cocked.

I have explained that what we need is a points based immigration system that  considers all applicants where ever they come from on a level playing field and matched against the skills and numbers this country decides it needs.

Regarding whether they are people who are using the 'Right to a family life' , poached health workers, Roma Gypsies, German Engineers, Serbian taxidermists, Pakistani cooks or Polish Plumbers they all need to be considered by the UK's requirements and that is something a self determining UK will be able to decide.
		
Click to expand...

Points don't fruit-pickers make.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378044/Farmers-We-must-have-more-migrants


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Points don't fruit-pickers make.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378044/Farmers-We-must-have-more-migrants

Click to expand...

*Of course they do*.  If we have a requirement for say 10,000 fruit pickers then people can apply for work visas to fill that quota.   And; if we have enough lazy workshy on benefits that can pick fruit then insist they do these jobs or get nothing.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 5, 2016)

Having to pay the minimum wage, I'd have thought, was a greater concern for agriculture...


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess it's deciding what security blanket they want to bail out their economy.
		
Click to expand...

You really don't understand what's going on in Scottish politics. No fault in that, why would you after all? But posting stupid, inflammatory stuff like that doesn't help.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*Of course they do*.  If we have a requirement for say 10,000 fruit pickers then people can apply for work visas to fill that quota.   And; if we have enough lazy workshy on benefits that can pick fruit then insist they do these jobs or get nothing.
		
Click to expand...

How many points do you need to be qualified to pick fruit?  And so we get back to the workshy.  Unless Leave have plans for getting the workshy back into work then we're going to have to keep bringing in 10s of thousands of low-skilled labour every year on a nil points basis.

Actually _Leave _don't really have plans for anything - they have a very long wish-list - and have decided that it isn't 'worth their while' putting together an equivalent document to that the government produced for us all.  

So is that it? - all we are going to get from _Leave _for the next two months is assertion, supposition and indignant complaining about collusion between parties with 'vested interests' in the UK staying in the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You really don't understand what's going on in Scottish politics. No fault in that, why would you after all? But posting stupid, inflammatory stuff like that doesn't help.
		
Click to expand...

Watched _Scotland 2016 _last night.  Interesting discussion between the political party advisers - and their views on what the most important matters are for the voting public in Scotland - #1 is a second referendum (for or against).  And also the (brief) mention the ex-Labour party adviser made about how the many voters in Scotland would view a BoJo PM in Westminster.  If we thought that Cameron and Osborne weren't popular, well ...


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually _Leave _don't really have plans for anything
		
Click to expand...

Its simple really. The plan that will be put into operation will be the same one as would have if Cameron hadn't won his useless concessions and the U.K. left.

Parliament was confident that they could have managed if we left 6 months ago, what has changed in the world in the last six months that will now make those plans inoperable.

We have no idea what the EU has in store for its members in the future and we have legislation in place that will enable us to have further votes on the issue in the future if major constitutional changes are made. Those that put the legislation in place must have the confidence that it's completely feasible for the UK to operate independently .


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Its simple really. The plan that will be put into operation will be the same one as would have if Cameron hadn't won his useless concessions and the U.K. left.

Parliament was confident that they could have managed if we left 6 months ago, what has changed in the world in the last six months that will now make those plans inoperable.

We have no idea what the EU has in store for its members in the future and we have legislation in place that will enable us to have further votes on the issue in the future if major constitutional changes are made. Those that put the legislation in place must have the confidence that it's completely feasible for the UK to operate independently .
		
Click to expand...

OK - so if we accept that it is difficult to plan for life trying to integrate with an unknown future EU, where is the Exit Plan?

The plan that tells us simple things like: how and when and who will be untangling EU legislation from all existing UK legislation and re-writing it.  And what about all the bills and laws in place that have EU principles and directives embedded - they are going to change - will the redrafted legislation needed bringing back to the HoC - it's going to be new legislation - it's going to have to be.  

And the trade agreements - there is a very long list of key EU agreements that clearly we currently are part of (50 odd I think).  Which ones are a Brexitted UK going to negotiate first?  What is the impact of us not being in the ones being left for later?  It is a complete nightmare - and I haven't seen anything from _Leave_ that touches upon how all this sort of basic stuff is going to be dealt with.

Oh I know - it'll all get sorted - after all we used to run the Empire - this sort of stuff will be a piece of cake.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

Sounds like if we Leave we will need an army of Civil Servants and the country will be tied up in red tape for decades.
[now where have I heard that sentiment before?]


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so if we accept that it is difficult to plan for life trying to integrate with an unknown future EU, where is the Exit Plan?

The plan that tells us simple things like: how and when and who will be untangling EU legislation from all existing UK legislation and re-writing it.  And what about all the bills and laws in place that have EU principles and directives embedded - they are going to change - will the redrafted legislation needed bringing back to the HoC - it's going to be new legislation - it's going to have to be.  

And the trade agreements - there is a very long list of key EU agreements that clearly we currently are part of (50 odd I think).  Which ones are a Brexitted UK going to negotiate first?  What is the impact of us not being in the ones being left for later?  It is a complete nightmare - and I haven't seen anything from _Leave_ that touches upon how all this sort of basic stuff is going to be dealt with.

Oh I know - it'll all get sorted - after all we used to run the Empire - this sort of stuff will be a piece of cake.
		
Click to expand...

These things will not have to be done overnight.  There will be a period of negotiation over exit that will manage these details, they are not beyond the wit of a country like the UK.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sounds like if we Leave we will need an army of Civil Servants and the country will be tied up in red tape for decades.
[now where have I heard that sentiment before?]
		
Click to expand...

We already have an army of civil Servants to deal with these matters.  They also have to deal with the mass of detail currently from the EU.  Whats the difference.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so if we accept that it is difficult to plan for life trying to integrate with an unknown future EU, where is the Exit Plan.
		
Click to expand...

Parliament had one six months ago - let's use that one.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sounds like if we Leave we will need an army of Civil Servants and the country will be tied up in red tape for decades.
[now where have I heard that sentiment before?]
		
Click to expand...

Still trying to work out whether your in or out as at one point you seemed to be all for an independent Scotland .


----------



## Foxholer (May 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem to be reading my posts, or if you are you are not digesting the content but, rather applying your prejudice and then going off half cocked.
		
Click to expand...

A quote that is entirely applicable to yourself!!

There is already a method of determining whether applicants will be acceptable, though being a citizen of an EU country over-rides any limitations. Withdrawal from the EU would not (imo, and everyone who has analysed/commented the documentation) change that over-riding ability for Freedom of Movement for EU citizens if UK joins the EFTA (as proposed by Gove), as it is a fundamental pillar of that Ageement - along with the 3 other 'Freedom of Movements...'!

In fact, withdrawal from the EU would cause considerable more of an issue, as UK would no longer be able to either veto or restrict new membership of the EU, but would have to allow citizens of those countries free access! 

It's not EU immigrants that are the 'big' problem! It's the non-EU ones that are cause for real concern! The document you linked clearly demonstrates that! 

Leaving the EU will not solve the immigration problem!

Your 'points system' is really only an alternative method of doing the job that is already being done - maybe better, maybe not - but would require a massive upheaval in CS processes and Regulation - and possibly even legislation - for, imo, little change in the number of approved immigration applications that could not be achieved by using/tweaking the existing regulations!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Still trying to work out whether your in or out as at one point you seemed to be all for an independent Scotland .
		
Click to expand...

I want what the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem parties vowed to us in 2014.
Three forked tongues there as they said a No vote would guarantee Scotland staying in Europe.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I want what the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem parties vowed to us in 2014.
Three forked tongues there as they said a No vote would guarantee Scotland staying in Europe.
		
Click to expand...

So your interest in an independent Scotland has evaporated


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

I am just concerned about all of the people who voted to stay within the UK and the EU who were sold a pack of lies by what was then the three major Westminster parties.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We already have an army of civil Servants to deal with these matters.  They also have to deal with the mass of detail currently from the EU.  Whats the difference.
		
Click to expand...

You will need to multiply it by 50.
All those different trade agreements to instigate with at least 50 different countries.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am just concerned about all of the people who voted to stay within the UK and the EU who were sold a pack of lies by what was then the three major Westminster parties.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll find the EU was mentioned on the ballot paper.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I don't think you'll find the EU was mentioned on the ballot paper.
		
Click to expand...

You are wrong. It was part of the deal that folk signed up to.


----------



## Old Skier (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are wrong. It was part of the deal that folk signed up to.
		
Click to expand...

So you are saying it was on the ballot paper then. I'm surprised, I thought it was a ballot based on an out - in on independence. 

Strange that a Westminister government was only giving the right to vote on the EU to those living in Scotland.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So you are saying it was on the ballot paper then. I'm surprised, I thought it was a ballot based on an out - in on independence. 

Strange that a Westminister government was only giving the right to vote on the EU to those living in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are getting confused now.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You will need to multiply it by 50.
All those different trade agreements to instigate with at least 50 different countries.
		
Click to expand...

Give me a break.   How do you think countries like Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada etc manage to do it with smaller populations than ours.   Much of this talk smacks of desperation


----------



## SocketRocket (May 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			A quote that is entirely applicable to yourself!!

There is already a method of determining whether applicants will be acceptable, though being a citizen of an EU country over-rides any limitations. Withdrawal from the EU would not (imo, and everyone who has analysed/commented the documentation) change that over-riding ability for Freedom of Movement for EU citizens if UK joins the EFTA (as proposed by Gove), as it is a fundamental pillar of that Ageement - along with the 3 other 'Freedom of Movements...'!

In fact, withdrawal from the EU would cause considerable more of an issue, as UK would no longer be able to either veto or restrict new membership of the EU, but would have to allow citizens of those countries free access! 

It's not EU immigrants that are the 'big' problem! It's the non-EU ones that are cause for real concern! The document you linked clearly demonstrates that! 

Leaving the EU will not solve the immigration problem!

Your 'points system' is really only an alternative method of doing the job that is already being done - maybe better, maybe not - but would require a massive upheaval in CS processes and Regulation - and possibly even legislation - for, imo, little change in the number of approved immigration applications that could not be achieved by using/tweaking the existing regulations!
		
Click to expand...

You are suggesting it is a certainty that the UK would have to accept the EU free movement of labour after Brexit.  There is nothing certain about it, I have said previously (but you seem to have ignored it in your selective manner) there are a whole raft of countries that have Free Trade Agreements with the EU but don't have FMOL agreements with the EU.   This FMOL is something only used by the EU, it's a complete idiotic policy that is central to so much unrest and concern within the EU and will create massive problems in the future.   I would suggest it will have to go before long.

Regarding a points based system, it's not a difficult policy to manage at all and effectively used now by much smaller countries.   Of course it has the potential to improve the situation, at it's heart is the cap on numbers then you decide what skills you want and filter out those not needed.   Simple.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am just concerned about all of the people who voted to stay within the UK and the EU who were sold a pack of lies by what was then the three major Westminster parties.
		
Click to expand...

There is no way this government or any other one likely to be formed anytime in the near future is going to be taking the UK out of the EU irrespective of the outcome of any vote put to the great unwashed...


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 6, 2016)

Now Donald Trump has given his backing to "leave", I assume the same parties that castigated Obama will be criticising him for giving his opinion?


----------



## USER1999 (May 6, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Now Donald Trump has given his backing to "leave", I assume the same parties that castigated Obama will be criticising him for giving his opinion?
		
Click to expand...

I can't see the support of Trump helping the leave campaign much, so yes, i wish he had kept his mouth shut.


----------



## NWJocko (May 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I want what the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem parties vowed to us in 2014.
Three forked tongues there as they said a No vote would guarantee Scotland staying in Europe.
		
Click to expand...

The No vote did guarantee you stayed in the EU at that time though didn't it?

Did they "vow" there would never be a referendum on EU membership?


----------



## Old Skier (May 6, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			The No vote did guarantee you stayed in the EU at that time though didn't it?

Did they "vow" there would never be a referendum on EU membership?
		
Click to expand...

The message that there would be a referendum on the EU was in the Tory manifesto prior to any vote on independence in Scotland. 

No no mention on the Indy ballot sheet about the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Give me a break.   How do you think countries like Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada etc manage to do it with smaller populations than ours.   Much of this talk smacks of desperation 

Click to expand...

Because they have been negotiating the trade deals they have in place today for decades might be one answer; and they haven't gone through the process of cancelling the vast majority of them at one fell swoop because they want to start again to see if they can perhaps get better deals than they have in place.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			The No vote did guarantee you stayed in the EU *at that time* though didn't it?

Did they "vow" there would never be a referendum on EU membership?
		
Click to expand...

That's not what they were saying...and on the other side of the coin BT said that there was no guarantee that an IndyScot would *ever* get membership of the EU - therefore the only way to guarantee Scotland in the EU was to stay IN the UK


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			There is no way this government or any other one likely to be formed anytime in the near future is going to be taking the UK out of the EU irrespective of the outcome of any vote put to the great unwashed...
		
Click to expand...

How do you work that one out


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am just concerned about all of the people who voted to stay within the UK and the EU who were sold a pack of lies by what was then the three major Westminster parties.
		
Click to expand...

Must admit to being very confused by all this and other nationalist BS about supposed "broken promises". Always couched in extreme vagueness whenever discussed. What "lies", specifically, are you referring to? The Tory commitment to an in-out eu referendum was known and, regardless, at no time were we promised a no vote meant we'd be in the Eu forever.

The only lie I specifically remember was the "once in a generation" one.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Now Donald Trump has given his backing to "leave", I assume the same parties that castigated Obama will be criticising him for giving his opinion?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it's not his business to tell us what to do, just like it's not Obamas business.   I guess the difference with Trump is he's not threatening us with anything though.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Must admit to being very confused by all this and other nationalist BS about supposed "broken promises". Always couched in extreme vagueness whenever discussed. What "lies", specifically, are you referring to? The Tory commitment to an in-out eu referendum was known and, regardless, at no time were we promised a no vote meant we'd be in the Eu forever.

The only lie I specifically remember was the "once in a generation" one.
		
Click to expand...

No more or less confusing than unionist claims that the 'once in a generation' exhortation made by Salmond in the heat of the battle to get folks out to vote - was some how a 'promise'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it's not his business to tell us what to do, just like it's not Obamas business.   I guess the difference with Trump is he's not threatening us with anything though.
		
Click to expand...

What about trade barriers; what about defence; pulling out of NATO; letting the rest of the world sort itself out without US support or intervention (which militarily might be a good thing but on humanitarian level less so) - after all is he not all about 'America First'.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No more or less confusing than unionist claims that the 'once in a generation' exhortation made by Salmond in the heat of the battle to get folks out to vote - was some how a 'promise'.
		
Click to expand...


Lol! What a double standard that is. Stop bleating about abstract lies and come out with the specifics. Please.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Lol! What a double standard that is. Stop bleating about abstract lies and come out with the specifics. Please.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - don't get...

I'm simply saying that the 'once in a generation' statement was an electoral exhortation that Unionist have turned into a 'promise'.  But you are right - nowhere that I recall did I hear BT ever 'promise' that Scotland would forever stay part of the EU if it voted NO - but they certainly implied it.  That coupled with statements about Scotland not getting back into the EU if it parted ways with rUK.  Many Scots would have therefore concluded that t*he only way to ensure *that Scotland stayed in the EU Was to vote NO.  They may have been wrong in drawing that conclusion given an EU referendum was always on the cards - but I am sure many did.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - don't get...

I'm simply saying that the 'once in a generation' statement was an electoral exhortation that Unionist have turned into a 'promise'.  But you are right - nowhere that I recall did I hear BT ever 'promise' that Scotland would forever stay part of the EU if it voted NO - but they certainly implied it.  That coupled with statements about Scotland not getting back into the EU if it parted ways with rUK.  Many Scots would have therefore concluded that t*he only way to ensure *that Scotland stayed in the EU Was to vote NO.  They may have been wrong in drawing that conclusion given an EU referendum was always on the cards - but I am sure many did.
		
Click to expand...

Dont ignore the fact that the Conservatives had already said they would hold a referendum on EU Membership.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 6, 2016)

Wasn't part of the reason that Scotland were not guaranteed to be allowed to join the EU because Spain were threatening to veto it? They didn't want a precedent to be set in case Catalonia were successful in achieving independence and thought that if Scotland were allowed into the EU then it might increase the calls for independence in Catalonia if they thought they could join the EU straight away as well.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 6, 2016)

So it's an electoral exhortation, not a lie. Ok got it.


----------



## NWJocko (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's not what they were saying...and on the other side of the coin BT said that there was no guarantee that an IndyScot would *ever* get membership of the EU - therefore the only way to guarantee Scotland in the EU was to stay IN the UK
		
Click to expand...

If there was a referendum already committed to why on earth would they guarantee "forever" membership of the EU unless they were planning on rigging the vote!? 

So, was the statement (at the time of the Indy referendum) that the only way to guarantee Scotland remained in the EU was a No vote a statement of fact or "a pack of lies"?!?


----------



## NWJocko (May 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's an electoral exhortation, not a lie. Ok got it.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's an electoral exhortation, not a lie. Ok got it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - they are quite different forms of statement.  

Did Salmond actually qualify his 'once in a generation' remark with a statement to say that *the SNP* would not seek another referendum for a generation - that as far as *the SNP *were concerned this was the Scottish electorates one and only vote on Indy 'for a generation' (however long that might be).  I don't think he did.  It was an exortation to stir the electorate - get them thinking that it might just be a long while *before Westminster grants* Scotland another vote.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			If there was a referendum already committed to why on earth would they guarantee "forever" membership of the EU unless they were planning on rigging the vote!? 

So, was the statement (at the time of the Indy referendum) that the only way to guarantee Scotland remained in the EU was a No vote a statement of fact or "a pack of lies"?!?
		
Click to expand...

It was both.  Former for the short term - latter for the long term.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was both.  Former for the short term - latter for the long term.
		
Click to expand...

OK then, using your understanding of National Referendums, if the Vote next Month is to 'Stay' then we could have another one a year or so later?


----------



## Foxholer (May 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are suggesting it is a certainty that the UK would have to accept the EU free movement of labour after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

No I am not! Simply that if the EFTA mechanism is used, as Gove stated, then that will be the case! Any other agreement, or indeed the possibility of exclusion of 'Freedom of movement of People' from UK's EFTA participation, would likely taken many years to negotiate. That was almost certainly the reason Gove went for the use of EFTA - just without knowing/caring that Freedom of Movement was a fundamental pillar of that agreement!


----------



## NWJocko (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was both.  Former for the short term - latter for the long term.
		
Click to expand...

Try answering the first question then if it was a lie?

I'm not actually bothered, just amusing the hideous double standards you and Doon approach these things with :rofl:


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			No I am not! Simply that if the EFTA mechanism is used, as Gove stated, then that will be the case! Any other agreement, or indeed the possibility of exclusion of 'Freedom of movement of People' from UK's EFTA participation, would likely taken many years to negotiate. That was almost certainly the reason Gove went for the use of EFTA - just without knowing/caring that Freedom of Movement was a fundamental pillar of that agreement!
		
Click to expand...

I cant see any agreement that includes TFMOL being acceptable. It's one of the main reasons people are looking to leave the EU so if we Brexit it cant really be acceptable, I think the EU would understand that.


----------



## Foxholer (May 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant see any agreement that includes TFMOL being acceptable. It's one of the main reasons people are looking to leave the EU so if we Brexit it cant really be acceptable, I think the EU would understand that.
		
Click to expand...

I agree!!! But 'understanding' and 'accepting' are significantly different expressions!! And that still doesn't alter the fact that Brexitting won't solve the immigration 'problem'!

The concessions Cameron negotiated seems to me to be a reflection of the limits of how far the EU (Council) is prepared to move - and retain the principles of the EU!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I agree!!! But 'understanding' and 'accepting' are significantly different expressions!! And that still doesn't alter the fact that Brexitting won't solve the immigration 'problem'!

The concessions Cameron negotiated seems to me to be a reflection of the limits of how far the EU (Council) is prepared to move - and retain the principles of the EU!
		
Click to expand...

IMO and many others the EU will have little choice in making a mutually acceptable free trade agreement with the UK, theres too much to lose not to.   I have pointed out previously that many countries have such agreements already and they didnt take long to agree.   The basis of most regulations are already in place regarding trading standards anyway.

Cameron made a poor effort in negotiating concessions and should have used more brinkmanship.   I believe he stitched up the agreement in his and his political elite's interest before the talks started.

You have said a few times that Brexit wont solve the immigration problem but that makes no sense to me.   If we dont have TFMOL from the EU we will have control of immigration just like most of the developed World does.   It will be our choice who and how many come here other than any illegals.  I guess you are not considering anyone suggests we have no immigration, no one is suggesting that.


----------



## Foxholer (May 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			IMO....
		
Click to expand...

'Nuff said!


----------



## Fish (May 7, 2016)

[video=youtube_share;j0pwXLtvt2w]https://youtu.be/j0pwXLtvt2w[/video]

:thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (May 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			'Nuff said!
		
Click to expand...

"IMO and many others"

Enough Said!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*IMO and many others the EU will have little choice in making a mutually acceptable free trade agreement with the UK, theres too much to lose not to.*   I have pointed out previously that many countries have such agreements already and they didnt take long to agree.   The basis of most regulations are already in place regarding trading standards anyway.

Cameron made a poor effort in negotiating concessions and should have used more brinkmanship.   I believe he stitched up the agreement in his and his political elite's interest before the talks started.

You have said a few times that Brexit wont solve the immigration problem but that makes no sense to me.   If we dont have TFMOL from the EU we will have control of immigration just like most of the developed World does.   It will be our choice who and how many come here other than any illegals.  I guess you are not considering anyone suggests we have no immigration, no one is suggesting that.
		
Click to expand...

And there we have it - the #1 assertion and supposition underpinning the Brexit economic case, and for which there is nothing whatsoever coming from the rEU that supports that thinking - and indeed for which there is both a great deal of historic evidence as well as statements being to the contrary by many to suggest that that might not be the case.  But OK - as you say it is only your opinion.

But here is another opinion - yesterday in the _Telegraph _- about the future of London as a world financial centre.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...f-london-really-a-price-worth-paying-for-bre/


----------



## Hobbit (May 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And there we have it - the #1 assertion and supposition underpinning the Brexit economic case, and for which there is nothing whatsoever coming from the rEU that supports that thinking - and indeed for which there is both a great deal of historic evidence as well as statements being to the contrary by many to suggest that that might not be the case.  But OK - as you say it is only your opinion.

But here is another opinion - yesterday in the _Telegraph _- about the future of London as a world financial centre.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...f-london-really-a-price-worth-paying-for-bre/

Click to expand...

A rhetorical question. Are the bankers who brought the world's economies to its knees to believed? Are we now holding their protestations as gospel, bearing in mind we berated them for the reckless mismanagement of banking?

They may well be right but I hold their opinion on a par with both the Remain and Leave politicians.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2016)

The Leave supporters who continually spout 'Unelected EU Commissioners making decisions' seem to totally ignore the fact that the UK House of Lords have to rubber stamp every single law passed in good ol Blighty.


----------



## Ethan (May 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Leave supporters who continually spout 'Unelected EU Commissioners making decisions' seem to totally ignore the fact that the UK House of Lords have to rubber stamp every single law passed in good ol Blighty.
		
Click to expand...

The leave campaign is built on a faux patriotism puffing up of the chest, double talk and hypocrisy. The very proposition that we don't know what will happen after a Brexit is reason enough not to do something so stupid and reckless. The argument about faceless EU bureaucrats running the country is nonsense. People that believe they have a truly democratic and accountable Government are living in a fantasy. The Govt routinely lie,manipulate and deceive the people, who, in general, are too supine to even notice, let alone care. Some of the laws forced on the UK, including working time limits, better maternity provision and human rights are vital and we should thank the EU for them. Ironically, many of those supporting leave because of all the specious arguments don't even realise that most of the big money support is entirely self-serving and simply making fools of them.


----------



## Hobbit (May 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The leave campaign is built on a faux patriotism puffing up of the chest, double talk and hypocrisy. The very proposition that we don't know what will happen after a Brexit is reason enough not to do something so stupid and reckless. The argument about faceless EU bureaucrats running the country is nonsense. People that believe they have a truly democratic and accountable Government are living in a fantasy. The Govt routinely lie,manipulate and deceive the people, who, in general, are too supine to even notice, let alone care. Some of the laws forced on the UK, including working time limits, better maternity provision and human rights are vital and we should thank the EU for them. Ironically, many of those supporting leave because of all the specious arguments don't even realise that most of the big money support is entirely self-serving and simply making fools of them.
		
Click to expand...

Is your "stupid" opinion.

Accountable govt... Get it wrong and they don't get re-elected. I guess that kind of makes them accountable.

Do they lie? Absolutely! Are the EU politicians any better? Well I'm not that naÃ¯ve (stupid) but it appears you maybe.


----------



## Ethan (May 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Is your "stupid" opinion.

Accountable govt... Get it wrong and they don't get re-elected. I guess that kind of makes them accountable.

Do they lie? Absolutely! Are the EU politicians any better? Well I'm not that naÃ¯ve (stupid) but it appears you maybe.
		
Click to expand...

You are a two-faced hypocrite. 

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.


----------



## Hobbit (May 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are a two-faced hypocrite. 

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.
		
Click to expand...

Wow! I didn't realise you were so precious. I think you'll find my post was in response to yours, in which you bring up "stupid" again. If you can't take it don't dish it to start with.

I hold your intelligence in high regard, and would like to sit down over a beer. But that doesn't mean I appreciate your arrogance. There's room in this world for many differences but unfortunately a lack of respect for those differences is prevalent.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are a two-faced hypocrite. 

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.
		
Click to expand...

You are just incapable of changing your hatred of anyone with a different opinion to yourself (and that's a lot of people).  Most adults grow out of this around 10 YOA but something in your development seems to have affected it.    I would suggest some form of therapy or counseling, not sure what would be suitable in your case but you will probably know best.    I hope it works out for you.


----------



## Ethan (May 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! I didn't realise you were so precious. I think you'll find my post was in response to yours, in which you bring up "stupid" again. If you can't take it don't dish it to start with.

I hold your intelligence in high regard, and would like to sit down over a beer. But that doesn't mean I appreciate your arrogance. There's room in this world for many differences but unfortunately a lack of respect for those differences is prevalent.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't call you stupid. I called the position of many Brexiteers stupid. I wasn't even responding to a post of yours. But you called me stupid (amongst other things).


----------



## Ethan (May 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are just incapable of changing your hatred of anyone with a different opinion to yourself (and that's a lot of people).  Most adults grow out of this around 10 YOA but something in your development seems to have affected it.    I would suggest some form of therapy or counseling, not sure what would be suitable in your case but you will probably know best.    I hope it works out for you.
		
Click to expand...

I see you know as little about counselling as you do about the EU. My post wasn't addressed to you or about you, but your skin is a thin as your opinions. 

The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial.

Note that I haven't accused anyone of needing counselling or therapy. Questioning someone's mental health is considered on many fora a very serious breach of rules and etiquette. I have long since given up any expectation of you having some manners, but I would expect even you to refrain from accusations of mental health issues. You should carefully consider your last comment. I will refrain from responding in kind.


----------



## Old Skier (May 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial..
		
Click to expand...

Welcome back Walter, as most of your post fill the above statement we seem to have the pot and kettle statement to end all statements.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I see you know as little about counselling as you do about the EU. My post wasn't addressed to you or about you, but your skin is a thin as your opinions. 

The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial.

Note that I haven't accused anyone of needing counselling or therapy. Questioning someone's mental health is considered on many fora a very serious breach of rules and etiquette. I have long since given up any expectation of you having some manners, but I would expect even you to refrain from accusations of mental health issues. You should carefully consider your last comment. I will refrain from responding in kind.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. My comments were as crass as yours suggesting Brexiters  were mentally subnormal.  
Thought you would have been clever enough to notice thel parallel I was making.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2016)

Like an Egyptian fish, I'm in denial.  And like a German vegetarian, I fear the wurst.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Like an Egyptian fish, I'm in denial.  And like a German vegetarian, I fear the wurst.
		
Click to expand...

I tried a German sausage once.   I have eaten Wurst!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A rhetorical question. Are the bankers who brought the world's economies to its knees to believed? Are we now holding their protestations as gospel, bearing in mind we berated them for the reckless mismanagement of banking?

They may well be right but I hold their opinion on a par with both the Remain and Leave politicians.
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea if he is a banker - but he does try and put the _Leave_ point of view as well as explain the impact Leaving could well have on the city and tries to explain why.  If we can accept that income and tax from Financial services is very important to the UK economy, and a that banker sees leaving having an impact on his own self-interest - then his self interest is aligned with that of the UKs.  If leaving was better for the banks and financial services and hence his own well-being - then why would he warn about the risks and impact of leaving - he'd be up for us leaving - why wouldn't he be?

And yet _Leave _just keep dismissing and ignoring this sort assessment with statements of just this sort 'well who trusts bankers'? What sort of counter argument is that.  It isn't one of any sort whatsoever.


----------



## Hobbit (May 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have no idea if he is a banker - but he does try and put the _Leave_ point of view as well as explain the impact Leaving could well have on the city and tries to explain why.  If we can accept that income and tax from Financial services is very important to the UK economy, and a that banker sees leaving having an impact on his own self-interest - then his self interest is aligned with that of the UKs.  If leaving was better for the banks and financial services and hence his own well-being - then why would he warn about the risks and impact of leaving - he'd be up for us leaving - why wouldn't he be?

And yet _Leave _just keep dismissing and ignoring this sort assessment with statements of just this sort 'well who trusts bankers'? What sort of counter argument is that.  It isn't one of any sort whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

I guess we'll have to disagree. Recent history clearly suggests that blindly trusting a banker isn't always the safe thing to do. Let's be honest here, he's made an educated guess, just as they were doing in 2008 when the global economies went into meltdown.

Irrespective of whether you're a Remainers or a Leaver are you willing to take what he says as accurate? 

But here's a thought or two. Turkey will be joining the EU soon. Their economy is on a par with Greece. Who will bail them out? Secondly, if the EU net contribution pot is Â£20, and an economy is being added that is a net taker from that pot either all the net takers will get less or the net contributors will pay more. Can Greece survive on less, bearing in mind they are already in dire straits?

The EU may well be exactly the same, post-referendum but will it be stable in two years time? There's plenty of evidence out there that clearly indicates that a single currency across diverse economic models is destined to fail. Great, every country reverts to their original base currency. The cost would be horrendous, especially for failing economies like Greece. Who funds that if the Greece's of the EU can't?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2016)

I think you can trust the present Bank of England chief.
He seems to be a cut above his predecessors.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 8, 2016)

Seems to me many of the remainers so called 'experts' were amongst the tools that told us we simply had to join the euro or we'd collapse... They were TOTALLY wrong then... Why on earth should we believe what they have say this time round...


Still, no point in getting knickers in a twist... DaveCam is liar... According to the Scots... Why should I trust him to take us out of Europe in the event of a vote for Brexit...


----------



## Old Skier (May 8, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems to me many of the remainers so called 'experts' were amongst the tools that told us we simply had to join the euro or we'd collapse... They were TOTALLY wrong then... Why on earth should we believe what they have say this time round...


Still, no point in getting knickers in a twist... DaveCam is liar... According to the Scots... Why should I trust him to take us out of Europe in the event of a vote for Brexit...
		
Click to expand...

Many of the expert remainers were quite happy to leave before call me Dave got his non existent non ratified changes.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

And today's scaremongers are the CEOs of AstraZenica, Pfizer, GlaksoSmithKlein plus many other senior executives fro the Life-Sciences industry in the UK (employs 220,000), explaining why being in the EU has made UK Life-Sciences World leading as well as very profitable and beneficial to the UK, and the CEOs of all divisions of Hitachi UK explaining the importance of free access to the EU single market and why they are in the UK.  Except they have all been explaining the benefits that they and the UK get from the UK being in the EU.  Yes - being in the EU is good for their businesses, but what is good for their business is good for the UK.

Hunting around a bit for any equivalent execs coming out for Brexit today - and not as yet found any.


----------



## Hobbit (May 8, 2016)

You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Except my point is that the CEOs were making the positive point and not scaremongering.  Security matters is all about minimising risk and MI5 and MI6 will pick up on anything that they think increases risk.  If leaving the EU reduced risk them they'd let us know - as improved and maintaining the security of the UK and our interests overseas is their raison d'etre.


----------



## Old Skier (May 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

That's it then we're doomed .

GCHQ closing down, laying off hundreds of spy's, nobody will want our info.

Looks like the Barley Mow is going to lose out on its regular drinkers.

Life will never be the same, at least the bar won't be so crowded now.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

They were EX Chiefs although I guess thats not important.

I listened to their case this morning and it was not very convincing to me.  They seemed to be saying our security was far superior to the rest of Europe and it would be them missing out but I cant understand how we would not still share intelligence as it would be in our and their best interests.   We are probably as close or even closer to the USA when it comes to security collaboration.  They're not in the EU are they? 

One of them made a big deal about the EU arrest warrant and how important it was but again I cant see how a similar arrangement couldn't be continued.   It seems more of a security issue to let an unknown number of ISIS terrorists through the Shengin Area due to the EU being totally incapable of managing the situation.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you can trust the present Bank of England chief.
He seems to be a cut above his predecessors.
		
Click to expand...

And in your opinion he is a cut above the others because?


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 8, 2016)

Seems to be an assumption from the brexiters that they can keep everything they like about the EU while dumping the parts they don't like. Sort of all the benefits with none of the responsibilities. I'm not buying that, I'm afraid.


----------



## Hobbit (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except my point is that the CEOs were making the positive point and not scaremongering.  Security matters is all about minimising risk and MI5 and MI6 will pick up on anything that they think increases risk.  If leaving the EU reduced risk them they'd let us know - as improved and maintaining the security of the UK and our interests overseas is their raison d'etre.
		
Click to expand...

Semantics, and you know it. One person's scaremongering is another's lie. Call it positive if you want but its still guess work. Its this exact thing that really pee's me off from both sides. You genuinely believe what one sides says whilst totally dismissing the other side. There's been so many intelligent people say nobody knows exactly what it will be like post referendum.

First of all, David Cameron went and renegotiated what? He's got nothing yet. He has a list of changes to our T&C's that still have to be ratified by the other member nations. That in itself means we don't know what the EU will be like for the UK post Remain. Secondly, no one knows what will be negotiated post exit, via Article 50, until those negotiations take place.

Both sides are guilty of scaremongering, and each side says they aren't they are telling the truth.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And in your opinion he is a cut above the others because?
		
Click to expand...

He appears unshackled and honest, and as a Canadian he is not part of the 'establishment' of City based ex public schoolboy Tory types.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And today's scaremongers are the CEOs of AstraZenica, Pfizer, GlaksoSmithKlein plus many other senior executives fro the Life-Sciences industry in the UK (employs 220,000), explaining why being in the EU has made UK Life-Sciences World leading as well as very profitable and beneficial to the UK, and the CEOs of all divisions of Hitachi UK explaining the importance of free access to the EU single market and why they are in the UK.  Except they have all been explaining the benefits that they and the UK get from the UK being in the EU.  Yes - being in the EU is good for their businesses, but what is good for their business is good for the UK.

Hunting around a bit for any equivalent execs coming out for Brexit today - and not as yet found any.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with the letters to the press and these companies coming out in support of remaining is shown up when you delve into some of the figures. 

The original letter was signed by 198 Business Leaders and was trumpeted as having 36 of the FTSE 100 companies as signatories. This means that almost 2/3 of the FTSE 100 companies declined to sign the letter. Between 2007 and 2014 those 36 companies spent a little over 23 million Euros lobbying the EU and in return received just under 121 millions Euros in grants. Small wonder they want to remain if they are getting a 6 fold return on their lobbying investment.

The situation is similar for those in science and research in that they are getting much of their funding from the EU so of course will want to remain.

And if you're wanting business leaders that support a Leave vote then there are always JCB, Tate and Lyle, JD Weatherspoon, Dyson and Lloyds  Banking Group.


----------



## Old Skier (May 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He appears unshackled and honest, and as a Canadian he is not part of the 'establishment' of City based ex public schoolboy Tory types.
		
Click to expand...

So only the Tory boys go to public school then.


----------



## Old Skier (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except my point is that the CEOs were making the positive point and not scaremongering.  Security matters is all about minimising risk and MI5 and MI6 will pick up on anything that they think increases risk.  If leaving the EU reduced risk them they'd let us know - as improved and maintaining the security of the UK and our interests overseas is their raison d'etre.
		
Click to expand...

They said could not would and admitted that the security framework was set up by the British so why would it change.

I presume those who feel that information is at risk think that if we had details of an attack on Paris we would keep it to ourselves as we would no longer be in the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He appears unshackled and honest, and as a Canadian he is not part of the 'establishment' of City based ex public schoolboy Tory types.
		
Click to expand...

So if someone was the Son of a Railway Porter, went to a Black Country state junior School and a local Grammar School then what kind of Governor of the Bank of England would he make?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with the letters to the press and these companies coming out in support of remaining is shown up when you delve into some of the figures. 

The original letter was signed by 198 Business Leaders and was trumpeted as having 36 of the FTSE 100 companies as signatories. This means that almost 2/3 of the FTSE 100 companies declined to sign the letter. Between 2007 and 2014 those 36 companies spent a little over 23 million Euros lobbying the EU and in return received just under 121 millions Euros in grants. Small wonder they want to remain if they are getting a 6 fold return on their lobbying investment.

*The situation is similar for those in science and research in that they are getting much of their funding from the EU so of course will want to remain.
*
And if you're wanting business leaders that support a Leave vote then there are always JCB, Tate and Lyle, JD Weatherspoon, Dyson and Lloyds  Banking Group.
		
Click to expand...

This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss.  GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that.  If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it.  But we are not.  They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.  

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks.  And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison.  And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems to be an assumption from the brexiters that they can keep everything they like about the EU while dumping the parts they don't like. Sort of all the benefits with none of the responsibilities. I'm not buying that, I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement.  The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on.  There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it.  Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there.   Simples!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Semantics, and you know it. One person's scaremongering is another's lie. Call it positive if you want but its still guess work. Its this exact thing that really pee's me off from both sides. You genuinely believe what one sides says whilst totally dismissing the other side. There's been so many intelligent people say nobody knows exactly what it will be like post referendum.

First of all, David Cameron went and renegotiated what? He's got nothing yet. He has a list of changes to our T&C's that still have to be ratified by the other member nations. That in itself means we don't know what the EU will be like for the UK post Remain. Secondly, no one knows what will be negotiated post exit, via Article 50, until those negotiations take place.

Both sides are guilty of scaremongering, and each side says they aren't they are telling the truth.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought.  When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong.  Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case.  Nothing of the sort from Brexit.  Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.  

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks _Remain _are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes *exactly *the _Remain _point,  you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss.  GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that.  If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it.  But we are not.  They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.  

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks.  And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison.  And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.
		
Click to expand...

Funny how you people suddenly are happy to be in Bed with big global business when we have heard nothing but stories about how they are bad for working people, don't pay their taxes are ruthless at sacking people to make a buck, only have loyalty to their super rich owners who live in tax free havens.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement.  The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on.  There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it.  Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there.   Simples!
		
Click to expand...

If it were so simple why are so many major businesses, and indeed whole industries, against leaving.  These are businesses primarily out to make as much money as possible and make the right decisions for their shareholders.  That is what the are legally obliged to do.  If they felt they could make as much or more money if out of the EU that is what they'd be telling us.  But they are not.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement.  *The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on*.  There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it.  Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there.   Simples!
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm getting at. The assumption that all the good stuff will continue without the supposed bad stuff. Just seems hopelessly naive to me.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2016)

And Hitachi - original comments from a couple of months back

http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co...denhead-because-of-EU-membership-24022016.htm

_Hitachi, which employs 250 people at its European headquarters in Lower Cookham Road, Maidenhead, says one of the reasons it based itself in Berkshire is because of Britainâ€™s open EU links with the Continent.

A spokeswoman said: â€œHitachi invested in the UK in order to access the whole of the EU market.

â€œUnimpeded access to the EU market is fundamental for our position in the UK. Whilst we recognise this is a decision for UK voters, from our overall business perspective, Hitachi hopes the referendum will result in a positive decision to remain in the EU. We believe that a united Europe with the UK in a single market will be better for prosperity in Europe as a whole and therefore for Hitachiâ€™s business.â€
_

GSK, AstraZeneca, Pfizer

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/07/brexit-uk-medicines-cameron-eu-referendum


----------



## SocketRocket (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it were so simple why are so many major businesses, and indeed whole industries, against leaving.  These are businesses primarily out to make as much money as possible and make the right decisions for their shareholders.  That is what the are legally obliged to do.  If they felt they could make as much or more money if out of the EU that is what they'd be telling us.  But they are not.
		
Click to expand...

And these Businesses would make less money if were out of the EU because?   You might recall how many of these big businesses said if we didn't join the Euro then all kinds of serious repercussions would befall our economy and their business.  Many of these multinationals have branches all over the world, how on earth do their divisions manage outside the EU?    People make decisions to adopt change all the time, they often have to fly by the seat of their pants for a while but so often it can be the best thing they have ever done, I expect many of us have done the same.   Grasp the day!


----------



## Hobbit (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought.  When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong.  Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case.  Nothing of the sort from Brexit.  Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.  

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks _Remain _are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes *exactly *the _Remain _point,  you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.
		
Click to expand...

Did you bother reading the second paragraph from my post you quoted, or the last sentence?

You've not answered either point, as you often don't when it doesn't suit. BOTH SIDES are scaremongering. If you think otherwise you are blindly following one side like a sheep.

Do I believe all the dross coming out from both sides? No. Neither side is doing their respective cases any favours by up the ante on fear.

Y2k; I've not heard it mentioned once. It's obviously not a major point. So what is the Remainers standpoint on Turkey? What's their take on Greece? Do they feel the Visigard 4 and the increasing influence they have is worrying? It's getting like the Eurovision Song Contest with Eastern European countries all voting for each other.

What is the relationship with other countries outside of the EU when it comes to intelligence sharing and security matters? Which stupid idiot of a Remainer said our NATO membership is in danger if we left the EU? - Pretty sure Canada, America and Norway are in NATO but not in the EU.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss.  GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that.  If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it.  But we are not.  They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.  

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks.  And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison.  And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.
		
Click to expand...

And you're just happy to accept these statements on face value?

In 2014 GSK were awarded over 15 million Euros from the EU for research into Ebola and trials on vaccines.
In 2015 GSK were one of 15 partners to share 15 million Euros from the EU for research into osteoarthritis.
In 2016 GSK were one of 5 partners to share 8.3 million Euros from the EU for research into nanomedicines being used to fight cancer.

Astra Zenica were one of the 36 FTSE 100 companies that received a 6 fold return on their lobbying investment.

And to freshen up the Leave list I'll add Reebok and Phones 4 U.

And that's just from a quick Google search. Despite being pro remain I can't help but feel that this whole campaign is becoming a Cameron/Government stitch up with all their mates in big business being coerced into making statements supporting the Remain vote. Our safety won't be compromised by voting to leave the EU. GCHQ will still do what they have been doing and intelligence will still be shared. We would still import from and export to the EU.


----------



## Hobbit (May 9, 2016)

Thank you BBC. In this morning's interview with Philip Hammond the interviewer asked how on earth the public can make a reasoned judgement when there is claim and counter claim. Philip Hammond admitted that there were positive arguments from each side, and it was up to the public to weigh the balance of those arguments. 

And thank you Philip Hammond for giving an honest answer. Irrespective of him then going on to various other things, at least he recognised that there are positives for both sides.


----------



## Old Skier (May 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought.  When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong.  Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case.  Nothing of the sort from Brexit.  Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.  

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks _Remain _are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes *exactly *the _Remain _point,  you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.
		
Click to expand...

I was involved and although there were some issues it was nowhere near a problem that those in the industry made out and convinced businesses world wide. Although some spend was required it cost all areas a fortune when it wasn't needed.

The real winner was the IT Industry.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except my point is that the CEOs were making the positive point and not scaremongering.  Security matters is all about minimising risk and MI5 and MI6 will pick up on anything that they think increases risk.  If leaving the EU reduced risk them they'd let us know - as improved and maintaining the security of the UK and our interests overseas is their raison d'etre.
		
Click to expand...

Were this pair from the gaggle of 'experts' recently telling Londoners we were at risk from being slaughtered in our sleep if we voted for a Muslim as next Mayor of London... 

Witness Fallon doing some serious backtracking, on the telly, Saturday... 
Basically they are voicing exactly what central office tells them to do so...

And, as for citing Pfizer as a supporter of the UK... Finding that mildly amusing with them having shed hundreds if not thousands of jobs, here in the UK, in recent times


----------



## Hobbit (May 10, 2016)

From BBC Breakfast News this morning, "Support for Remain amongst business leaders drops from 60% to 54%."

Also, "the EU funds science and research around the world, not just within the EU."

Kind of blows out of the water a lot of the black and white statements made on here...


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2016)

Cameron has described his renegotiation package as "substantial" and called it an "additional reason" to stay in the EU but shouldn't be taken in isolation when weighing up the broader benefits of membership. Regardless of whether you agree with his description of the renegotiation it wasn't long ago that he was saying that if he didn't get the reforms he wanted then he could support a vote to leave. So what are all these broader benefits that he has discovered since his, in my opinion, failure at renegotiation? And why would it now be such a disaster to leave when not that long ago he indicated that he could support a leave vote?


----------



## Aztecs27 (May 10, 2016)

I've not got the time read all 48(!) pages, but just in case it's not yet been mentioned;

Both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are all for the Brexit campaign....If that's not reason enough to vote to stay in, I don't know what is. :thup:


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 10, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			I've not got the time read all 48(!) pages, but just in case it's not yet been mentioned;

Both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are all for the Brexit campaign....If that's not reason enough to vote to stay in, I don't know what is. :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Add boris to that list. 

But Cameron, sturgeon and Osborne want us to stay in.

Can I abstain?


----------



## Aztecs27 (May 10, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Add boris to that list. 

But Cameron, sturgeon and Osborne want us to stay in.

Can I abstain? 

Click to expand...

Ha! Well yes, it's the lesser of two evils isn't it? But If I had a gun to my head and had to pick, I'd be more comfortable with the latter group of clowns. At least they're just public school buffoons and not homophobic, racist muppets like the majority of the powers backing Brexit.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 10, 2016)

Doon's recent poll predictions seem to have taken a knock:

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/


----------



## SocketRocket (May 10, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Ha! Well yes, it's the lesser of two evils isn't it? But If I had a gun to my head and had to pick, I'd be more comfortable with the latter group of clowns. At least they're just public school buffoons and not homophobic, racist muppets like the majority of the powers backing Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's what the UK population want that matters.   Most of us are bright enough not to be influenced by the people you mention.


----------



## jp5 (May 10, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			I've not got the time read all 48(!) pages, but just in case it's not yet been mentioned;

Both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are all for the Brexit campaign....If that's not reason enough to vote to stay in, I don't know what is. :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there's been any comment on the EU referendum from Russia or Putin? 

As for Trump, don't think you can say he's "all for Brexit". Think he expressed a preference but it wasn't a recommendation, and definitely no threat as to our future relationship if we were to stay in!

Not sure it's wise to judge on the people, better to take a look at the arguments without the spin.


----------



## Aztecs27 (May 10, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't think there's been any comment on the EU referendum from Russia or Putin? 

As for Trump, don't think you can say he's "all for Brexit". Think he expressed a preference but it wasn't a recommendation, and definitely no threat as to our future relationship if we were to stay in!

Not sure it's wise to judge on the people, better to take a look at the arguments without the spin.
		
Click to expand...

Can't remember where I read it (re: Putin) but it was probably media spin!

But if Trump (and Farage/Boris etc) thinks we should stay in and based on everything else I know about the arguments for/against, it certainly sways me one way over the other!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Can't remember where I read it (re: Putin) but it was probably media spin!

But if Trump (and Farage/Boris etc) *thinks we should stay in *and based on everything else I know about the arguments for/against, it certainly sways me one way over the other!
		
Click to expand...

Did you mean *this*?


----------



## Aztecs27 (May 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you mean *this*?
		
Click to expand...

Good spot, just checking you're awake  

Obviously I meant if they think we should be OOT.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2016)

Add boris to that list. 

 But Cameron, sturgeon and Osborne want us to stay in.

 Can I abstain?
		
Click to expand...




Aztecs27 said:



			Ha! Well yes, it's the lesser of two evils isn't it? But If I had a gun to my head and had to pick, I'd be more comfortable with the latter group of clowns. At least *they're just public school buffoons *and not homophobic, racist muppets like the majority of the powers backing Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Thinking that Sturgeon might be many things - but one thing she most definitely isn't is one of *these *


----------



## Aztecs27 (May 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking that Sturgeon might be many things - but one thing she most definitely isn't is one of *these *

Click to expand...

Aye, but the other two are. Bloody pedants!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Rather transparent and not terribly cunning ploy by BoJo this morning on _Today _to get the Brexit message across.  Agree to the 'long' after 8 interview with John Humphreys, but once up and running just don't shut up so JH can't actually ask you any questions.  And even when JH did manage to get a question out over BoJo going on - BoJo just ignored it.  

To me that just gives the impression that he knows there are questions that he can't answer very well or at all convincingly - so he just keeps talking. I got absolutely nothing from the interview - just a restatement of _Brexit _position with no reasoning or rationale. Very unsatisfactory.


----------



## Old Skier (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rather transparent and not terribly cunning ploy by BoJo this morning on _Today _to get the Brexit message across.  Agree to the 'long' after 8 interview with John Humphreys, but once up and running just don't shut up so JH can't actually ask you any questions.  And even when JH did manage to get a question out over BoJo going on - BoJo just ignored it.  

To me that just gives the impression that he knows there are questions that he can't answer very well or at all convincingly - so he just keeps talking. I got absolutely nothing from the interview - just a restatement of _Brexit _position with no reasoning or rationale. Very unsatisfactory.
		
Click to expand...

You mean he acted like all Politians.

Better display on BBC Breakfast


----------



## SocketRocket (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rather transparent and not terribly cunning ploy by BoJo this morning on _Today _to get the Brexit message across.  Agree to the 'long' after 8 interview with John Humphreys, but once up and running just don't shut up so JH can't actually ask you any questions.  And even when JH did manage to get a question out over BoJo going on - BoJo just ignored it.  

To me that just gives the impression that he knows there are questions that he can't answer very well or at all convincingly - so he just keeps talking. I got absolutely nothing from the interview - just a restatement of _Brexit _position with no reasoning or rationale. Very unsatisfactory.
		
Click to expand...

I watched News Night last night and Ewan Evans was awful.  He let the 'Stay' people talk on endlessly but constantly chipped in all the time when the Leave tried to answer his questions.   Seemed like someone in the BBC was giving him instructions down his ear piece to do it.   BBC  not exactly impartial.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rather transparent and not terribly cunning ploy by BoJo this morning on _Today _to get the Brexit message across.  Agree to the 'long' after 8 interview with John Humphreys, but once up and running just don't shut up so JH can't actually ask you any questions.  And even when JH did manage to get a question out over BoJo going on - BoJo just ignored it.  

To me that just gives the impression that he knows there are questions that he can't answer very well or at all convincingly - so he just keeps talking. I got absolutely nothing from the interview - just a restatement of _Brexit _position with no reasoning or rationale. Very unsatisfactory.
		
Click to expand...


Lets face it.  You aren't going to like anything he says, are you?


----------



## Hobbit (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rather transparent and not terribly cunning ploy by BoJo this morning on _Today _to get the Brexit message across.  Agree to the 'long' after 8 interview with John Humphreys, but once up and running just don't shut up so JH can't actually ask you any questions.  And even when JH did manage to get a question out over BoJo going on - BoJo just ignored it.  

To me that just gives the impression that he knows there are questions that he can't answer very well or at all convincingly - so he just keeps talking. I got absolutely nothing from the interview - just a restatement of _Brexit _position with no reasoning or rationale. Very unsatisfactory.
		
Click to expand...

And you support David Cameron's scaremongering threat of war if we leave? That speech is an all time low!


----------



## MegaSteve (May 11, 2016)

Sadly I can see this going the same shameful way as the recent London Mayoral election...

Throw as much mud as possible hoping some will stick...
Fortunately Londoners were not impressed by this conduct...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And you support David Cameron's scaremongering threat of war if we leave? That speech is an all time low!
		
Click to expand...

What has that got to do with BoJo's performance?  I'm not commenting on what he actually said - it was the usual hyperbole both camps are prone to.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets face it.  You aren't going to like anything he says, are you?
		
Click to expand...

He is a complete buffoon - and a deceitful, duplicitous and totally self-serving one at that.  So no - I'm not going to like very much he says.  If he was actually to come up with a reasoned and fact-based statement I might listen more - but all I hear is indignant bluster; and generally unfounded assertion and supposition.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And you support David Cameron's scaremongering threat of war if we leave? That speech is an all time low!
		
Click to expand...

btw - an all time low means that nothing (from anyone) has ever been lower - really?  He stated a risk - he may well have over-egged it.  But 70 yrs is but a blink of an eye in the history of Europe.  If he thinks that the EU is a stabilising force that causes Putin to act more pragmatically and reasonably than he might - then undermining the future coherence of the EU by the UK leaving isn't a great move.  That notwithstanding - BoJo can apply his usual 'assertion and supposition' approach that it was because the EU was so attractive to the Ukraine that triggered the Russia/Ukraine crisis.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2016)

Which side of the Tory party are you referring to, the ins or oots?
I can't tell the difference.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Don't you just love the debate

Sunday May 8th.  the Daily Express.  Michael Gove thinks...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/668355/Scotland-vote-leave-EU-referendum-Brexit-European-Union

Tuesday 10th May.  the Guardian.  Poll of Scots says...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/10/eu-referendum-scottish-remain-vote-could-tip-balance


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And you support David Cameron's scaremongering threat of war if we leave? That speech is an all time low!
		
Click to expand...

And as the Brexiteers tell me that it is NATO and not the EU that has kept peace in Europe - (though wither the USoA with a Trump President) - I suppose I should listen to what previous NATO Secretary generals think - after all they are the ones who have presided over much of this time of peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...-global-instability-britain-needs-to-stand-u/


----------



## Hobbit (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He is a complete buffoon - and a deceitful, duplicitous and totally self-serving one at that.  So no - I'm not going to like very much he says.  If he was actually to come up with a reasoned and fact-based statement I might listen more - but all I hear is indignant bluster; and generally unfounded assertion and supposition.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, are you talking about Cameron there?

I think BoJo is a buffoon. He's lousy in interviews, and barely better with a prepared script. Equally, I heard Brown's speech this morning. Like the politicians from both sides, most start out from a reasonable point and spin it to death. I do feel we're seeing the worst from each politician that opens his or her mouth on this.

As for "may well have over egged it." Do you really think using the "hyperbole" he used dignifies his position as a PM? I'd put it on a par with the Beast of Bolsover.

I've never felt so disenfranchised from the politicians, and may well abstain. I don't feel any politicians has been honest, and I don't feel there's been enough real information given out to make a reasoned judgement.


----------



## Hobbit (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as the Brexiteers tell me that it is NATO and not the EU that has kept peace in Europe - (though wither the USoA with a Trump President) - I suppose I should listen to what previous NATO Secretary generals think - after all they are the ones who have presided over much of this time of peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...-global-instability-britain-needs-to-stand-u/

Click to expand...

Have you bothered to look up how many conflicts there's been in Europe in the last 70 years? The EU has made very little difference, if at all. As for equating the EU with NATO, there's more than just America as non-EU members. I just don't see the link, other than it suits the politicians to link it in this instance.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			btw - an all time low means that nothing (from anyone) has ever been lower - really?  He stated a risk - he may well have over-egged it.  But 70 yrs is but a blink of an eye in the history of Europe.  If he thinks that the EU is a stabilising force that causes Putin to act more pragmatically and reasonably than he might - then undermining the future coherence of the EU by the UK leaving isn't a great move.  That notwithstanding - BoJo can apply his usual 'assertion and supposition' approach that it was because the EU was so attractive to the Ukraine that triggered the Russia/Ukraine crisis.
		
Click to expand...

If the member states of the EU thought that the UK leaving would destabilise or undermine the coherence of the EU then they should have been a bit more understanding of our concerns and been a bit more generous with Cameron's negotiations.   If we leave and the EU stumbles it will be of their own making by not understanding the UK's concerns with items like immigration.


----------



## Old Skier (May 11, 2016)

I see the a remain Camp have completely forgotten Cameron's speech from a couple of years back to the CBI stating that we should have no fear of breaking away from the EU.


----------



## Old Skier (May 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If the member states of the EU thought that the UK leaving would destabilise or undermine the coherence of the EU then they should have been a bit more understanding of our concerns and been a bit more generous with Cameron's negotiations.   If we leave and the EU stumbles it will be of their own making by not understanding the UK's concerns with items like immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Are these the piece meal reforms that have not been ratified and the EU Parliament has made no move to ratify.


----------



## Foxholer (May 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If the member states of the EU thought that the UK leaving would destabilise or undermine the coherence of the EU then they should have been a bit more understanding of our concerns and been a bit more generous with Cameron's negotiations.   If we leave and the EU stumbles it will be of their own making by not understanding the UK's concerns with items like immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Now this is something I (almost) totally agree with! oo:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I see the a remain Camp have completely forgotten Cameron's speech from a couple of years back to the CBI stating that we should have no fear of breaking away from the EU.
		
Click to expand...

You mean that Cameron has forgotten...or maybe he's changed his ideas as BoJo has (maybe) - as BoJo was telling John Humphrys this morning when asked about his previous enthusiasm for the EU.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean that Cameron has forgotten...or maybe he's changed his ideas as BoJo has (maybe) - as BoJo was telling John Humphrys this morning when asked about his previous enthusiasm for the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Would this be in the same way that Cameron has forgotten/changed his ideas on leaving the EU? He said a few months ago that if his renegotiation with the EU didn't achieve what he was looking for then he could recommend voting to leave the EU but now he is saying that it would be such a disaster to leave and could threaten peace in Europe. You seem as keen as Cameron to avoid this point even though it has been directed at you on at least two previous occasions.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean that Cameron has forgotten...or maybe he's changed his ideas as BoJo has (maybe) - as BoJo was telling John Humphrys this morning when asked about his previous enthusiasm for the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Boris is a fan of Europe, I believe he has lived there and loves it, a bit like most of us in this country.   It's the institutions of the EU that are the problem for him and us.  Most people, including Brexiters have no problem with the countries and people, its the EU that smothers the individuality and free spirit of countries that we dont like.   I have some fantastic friends in Europe and will always treasure their friendship.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Boris is a fan of Europe, I believe he has lived there and loves it, a bit like most of us in this country.  * It's the institutions of the EU that are the problem for him and us. * Most people, including Brexiters have no problem with the countries and people, its the EU that smothers the individuality and free spirit of countries that we dont like.   I have some fantastic friends in Europe and will always treasure their friendship.
		
Click to expand...

And apparently BoJo had two statements of support written - one for his conviction support of _Leave - _one for his conviction support of _Remain _.  When asked on that by JH - BoJo basically ignored the question - blustering about folks being allowed to change their minds.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 12, 2016)

Hopefully folk will be looking beyond the 'characters' at the front of the platforms....

Pretty please...


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 12, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully folk will be looking beyond the 'characters' at the front of the platforms....

Pretty please...
		
Click to expand...

But then people might have to consider actual reasons, instead of who they like the most. And that has never caught on.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And apparently BoJo had two statements of support written - one for his conviction support of _Leave - _one for his conviction support of _Remain _.  When asked on that by JH - BoJo basically ignored the question - blustering about folks being allowed to change their minds.
		
Click to expand...

And you know this as a fact?


----------



## Foxholer (May 12, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And you know this as a fact?
		
Click to expand...

Surely the word 'apparently' is an indication!

Personally, I wouldn't be at all surprised! He did, after all, state something along the lines of 'racking his conscience over the decision', though politicians and consciences don't seem to fit naturally - where best to place/target their allegiance is more likely imo!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully folk will be looking beyond the 'characters' at the front of the platforms....

Pretty please...
		
Click to expand...

I would truly love to look well beyond that absolutely horrible bunch of opportunists who are leading the leave campaign.
Would you buy a second hand car off any of them ?


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 12, 2016)

Don't think I'd buy a second hand car off any of them regardless of which side of the debate they're on.

I see that Leave are miffed/angry/annoyed that the ITV debate will feature David Cameron for Remain and Nigel Farage on the side of Leave even though he isn't a member of the official Leave campaign. There are suggestions that ITV were desperate to get Cameron on the debate and pretty much let him chose his opponent so he went for Farage rather than Boris or anyone else that Leave might have wanted to put forward. The thinking behind it being that Farage is a far more divisive figure and is likely to come across less well than others might. There are threats of legal action from the Leave campaign to allow them to put forward their own choice of representative for the debate.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Surely the word 'apparently' is an indication!

Personally, I wouldn't be at all surprised! He did, after all, state something along the lines of 'racking his conscience over the decision', though politicians and consciences don't seem to fit naturally - where best to place/target their allegiance is more likely imo!
		
Click to expand...

Apparently Cameron has been lying through is teeth by underestimating the number of immigrants from the EU by 50,000 a year.   Apparently Corbyn really wants us to leave the EU.

Apparently you are stalking my posts.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Surely the word 'apparently' is an indication!

Personally, I wouldn't be at all surprised! He did, after all, state something along the lines of 'racking his conscience over the decision', though politicians and consciences don't seem to fit naturally - where best to place/target their allegiance is more likely imo!
		
Click to expand...

If you listen to the interview you will hear JH asking the question and trying to get BoJo to answer it.  BoJo ignored it the first times asked then blustered about everyone being allowed to change their mind.  He did not deny that he had two statements when it would have been very easy for him to do so if in fact it was not the case.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2016)

In any case - what does the Governor of the BoE and all nine members of the Monetary Policy Committee know...when _Leave _can field Tim 'Witherspins' and Norman Lament to put the counter-case.

And as usual lots of noise and anger from the Brexiteers over this.  Well just imagine if the guv and the committee say nothing about their thoughts and predictions over exit - and we do - and the predictions come to pass.  As Her Maj said about 2008 - 'It's awful - Why did nobody see it coming?'  Except this time they would have.  

And so it is ESSENTIAL to the debate that this surely most informed and believable group of experts should air their views and concerns.  To tell the to keep shtum, or to dismiss their views on the basis that they don't always get things right, is just arrant nonsense.

If you don't like what they say then just ignore them - but they have to be heard.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In any case - what does the Governor of the BoE and all nine members of the Monetary Policy Committee know...when _Leave _can field Tim 'Witherspins' and Norman Lament to put the counter-case.

And as usual lots of noise and anger from the Brexiteers over this.  Well just imagine if the guv and the committee say nothing about their thoughts and predictions over exit - and we do - and the predictions come to pass.  As Her Maj said about 2008 - 'It's awful - Why did nobody see it coming?'  Except this time they would have.  

And so it is ESSENTIAL to the debate that this surely most informed and believable group of experts should air their views and concerns.  To tell the to keep shtum, or to dismiss their views on the basis that they don't always get things right, is just arrant nonsense.

If you don't like what they say then just ignore them - but they have to be heard.
		
Click to expand...

You are convinced so what's the matter.   I'm not but I don't get into a lather over your opinion.


----------



## jp5 (May 13, 2016)

I struggle to believe Cameron truly believes that Brexit would be as bad as any of these institutions say it would be, otherwise he wouldn't have professed he was prepared to support us leaving, or even called the referendum in the first place.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I struggle to believe Cameron truly believes that Brexit would be as bad as any of these institutions say it would be, otherwise he wouldn't have professed he was prepared to support us leaving, or even called the referendum in the first place.
		
Click to expand...

It's difficult to understand what drives the comments of people like him.  They have many hidden agendas and want to be seen as all things to all men, so it's almost impossible to understand who he really speaks for.   I get the impression it's not the man in the street though.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 13, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I struggle to believe Cameron truly believes that Brexit would be as bad as any of these institutions say it would be, otherwise he wouldn't have professed he was prepared to support us leaving, or even called the referendum in the first place.
		
Click to expand...

He could hardly go into his negotiations with the EU without at least intimating that he was prepared to leave if he didn't get what he wanted. Anything else would have undermined the whole process.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would truly love to look well beyond that absolutely horrible bunch of opportunists who are leading the leave campaign.
Would you buy a second hand car off any of them ?
		
Click to expand...


By the same measure... If I ever shook hands with DaveCam, Georgieboy, GordyBrown et al the first thing I'd do afterwards would be to check my watch and wallet were still in situ...


----------



## pendodave (May 13, 2016)

Can't help thinking that all parts of the British Establishment are a bit worried about actually having to do some work....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are convinced so what's the matter.   I'm not but I don't get into a lather over your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

So who the heck *are* you going to listen to?  

I really struggle to understand how what the Governor of the BoE and the Monetary Policy Committee say, can just be ignored or dismissed.  They are the group we trust to provide guidance on the economy of the country and set interest rates according to economic conditions - that is their job - they *are* the experts - they are not politicians.

On the politician front I'll listen to David Owen. Gisella Stuart, Michael Gove (sometimes), Jim Sillars; Ruth Lea; 

I can't think of any significant business or finance people actually supporting _Leave_ but let me know who I might have a listen to.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's difficult to understand what drives the comments of people like him.  They have many hidden agendas and want to be seen as all things to all men, so it's almost impossible to understand who he really speaks for.   I get the impression it's not the man in the street though.
		
Click to expand...

I would argue that every single person offering a public on this, is thinking about their own hidden agenda.


----------



## Hobbit (May 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who the heck *are* you going to listen to?  

I really struggle to understand how what the Governor of the BoE and the Monetary Policy Committee say, can just be ignored or dismissed.  They are the group we trust to provide guidance on the economy of the country and set interest rates according to economic conditions - that is their job - they *are* the experts - they are not politicians.

On the politician front I'll listen to David Owen. Gisella Stuart, Michael Gove (sometimes), Jim Sillars; Ruth Lea; 

I can't think of any significant business or finance people actually supporting _Leave_ but let me know who I might have a listen to.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really expect the 'establishment' to not back Diddy David? Are you really that gullible to believe they would do any different? 

I just imagine the career limiting decision that would be by them to say any different. 

By by the way, I get you've found the *bold*&#8203; button. Not really necessary when you've already hit the quote button.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			He could hardly go into his negotiations with the EU without at least intimating that he was prepared to leave if he didn't get what he wanted. Anything else would have undermined the whole process.
		
Click to expand...

He seemed pretty content rolling over on his back, letting Merkel tickle his stomach and throw him a few Doggy scraps.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who the heck *are* you going to listen to?  

I really struggle to understand how what the Governor of the BoE and the Monetary Policy Committee say, can just be ignored or dismissed.  They are the group we trust to provide guidance on the economy of the country and set interest rates according to economic conditions - that is their job - they *are* the experts - they are not politicians.

On the politician front I'll listen to David Owen. Gisella Stuart, Michael Gove (sometimes), Jim Sillars; Ruth Lea; 

I can't think of any significant business or finance people actually supporting _Leave_ but let me know who I might have a listen to.
		
Click to expand...

I certainly don't take a lot of notice from establishment slimebats who are only interested in keeping their Ministerial or powerful positions.   I go by my gut feeling that we are better than being a minion of this EU club that are becoming a shrinking violet with World Trade and diplomacy.  Due to it's makeup the EU are inept as a coherent power, just look at the disgraceful situation with the current migrant crises as an example.    There are lots of countries around the World that manage by themselves and IMO to think we are not competent to make a success of running ourselves shows a lack of plain old British Grit!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I certainly don't take a lot of notice from establishment slimebats who are only interested in keeping their Ministerial or powerful positions.   I go by my gut feeling that we are better than being a minion of this EU club that are becoming a shrinking violet with World Trade and diplomacy.  Due to it's makeup the EU are inept as a coherent power, just look at the disgraceful situation with the current migrant crises as an example.    There are lots of countries around the World that manage by themselves and IMO to think we are not competent to make a success of running ourselves shows a lack of plain old British Grit!
		
Click to expand...

Gut feeling is fair enough - but to ignore those you refer to - those for whom, if exiting was more likely to be beneficial to them than staying in - would be supporting exiting?  But they are not.  And they are not all establishment.

And I fear that the gut feeling of many who wish to Leave is driven by anger, resentments and feelings of entitlement that are not being met.  And they want a scapegoat - to blame anyone or anything but themselves - we see and hear examples of this sort of thing every day ion contexts nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2016)

Well I think the Remain camp have hit the jackpot today as they have received backing from the mighty Bjorn Ulvaeus. What do you mean you don't know who that is? It's Bjorn from Abba who has said that it would make him emotional if Britain voted to leave the EU. Forget the head of the IMF or the governor of the Bank of England, now that Bjorn has said we should stay that has guaranteed my vote to Remain.


----------



## Old Skier (May 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well I think the Remain camp have hit the jackpot today as they have received backing from the mighty Bjorn Ulvaeus. What do you mean you don't know who that is? It's Bjorn from Abba who has said that it would make him emotional if Britain voted to leave the EU. Forget the head of the IMF or the governor of the Bank of England, now that Bjorn has said we should stay that has guaranteed my vote to Remain.
		
Click to expand...

No need to go that far, if we do leave we can still play in Eurovision along side Australia .


----------



## SocketRocket (May 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gut feeling is fair enough - but to ignore those you refer to - those for whom, if exiting was more likely to be beneficial to them than staying in - would be supporting exiting?  But they are not.  And they are not all establishment.

And I fear that the gut feeling of many who wish to Leave is driven by anger, resentments and feelings of entitlement that are not being met.  And they want a scapegoat - to blame anyone or anything but themselves - we see and hear examples of this sort of thing every day ion contexts nothing to do with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I assure you I have no feelings of entitlement to anything, nothing has been given to me in my life and I expect nothing from others.    I think this 'entitlement' you speak of is more a reflection of the way the EU works and why it is in such a mess.   People all over the continent feel entitled to a better life than their economies can provide, just look to Greece, Romania, Bulgaria and so many others, they feel entitled to the same standards of living as countries like Germany, France and the UK but without creating that wealth for themselves.   The EU and particularly the Euro Zone is a train chugging down the line to failure and if we are stupid enough we will buy a very expensive ticket to ride on it.

I feel your abject dislike that borders on hatred for people of a Brexit disposition is unhealthy and illogical.  Do you see these Brexiters making such outlandish accusations?


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He seemed pretty content rolling over on his back, letting Merkel tickle his stomach and throw him a few Doggy scraps.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, his supposed deal is all smoke and mirrors, no denying it. Doesn't affect my vote either way.


----------



## Hobbit (May 14, 2016)

Today's Remain campaign says that families will be Â£4300 worse off if Leave are successful. A few weeks ago they were saying families would be Â£3600 worse off. Both sets of figures are from the Treasury.

An almost 20% difference. 

Clueless or or ramping up the fear campaign?

The Open Europe Think Tank says that the UK will either 0.8% of GDP worse off, or 1.8% of better off depending on the negotiations. At least they state it could be either, rather than only portraying one set of figures as fact.

One side is predicting a jobs boom for Leave, whilst the other is saying mass redundancies.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Today's Remain campaign says that families will be Â£4300 worse off if Leave are successful. A few weeks ago they were saying families would be Â£3600 worse off. Both sets of figures are from the Treasury.

An almost 20% difference. 

Clueless or or ramping up the fear campaign?

The Open Europe Think Tank says that the UK will either 0.8% of GDP worse off, or 1.8% of better off depending on the negotiations. At least they state it could be either, rather than only portraying one set of figures as fact.

One side is predicting a jobs boom for Leave, whilst the other is saying mass redundancies.
		
Click to expand...

The IMF have said we could experience a fall of up to 10% of GDP if we leave.   As Andrew Neil suggested, thats ridiculous it's more than we had in the recession of 2009, more than the end of ww1, more than the great depression, more than when the Romans landed in Kent.


----------



## Hobbit (May 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The IMF have said we could experience a fall of up to 10% of GDP if we leave.   As Andrew Neil suggested, thats ridiculous it's more than we had in the recession of 2009, more than the end of ww1, more than the great depression, more than when the Romans landed in Kent.
		
Click to expand...

The IMF and the ECB have a lot to lose if the Uk isn't supporting the Eurozone. Not to put it too bluntly, they'll be peeping their pants with worry. The Euro, and economies like Greece will take a major wobble.

Not good for anyone, but the UK economy is in a far better shape than most countries in Europe.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The IMF and the ECB have a lot to lose if the Uk isn't supporting the Eurozone. Not to put it too bluntly, they'll be peeping their pants with worry. The Euro, and economies like Greece will take a major wobble.

Not good for anyone, but the UK economy is in a far better shape than most countries in Europe.
		
Click to expand...

There will be risks which ever way the vote goes, for anyone to believe there is no risk to the country by Remaining is very naive.   We all know that Cameron's so called 'Reformed EU' is a sham and there is no such thing. If we stay we will be a country sitting on the sidelines of the Euro Zone and will be a major contributor without any teeth, all this ludicrous talk of being better inside so we can influence, change and reform the EU is a complete fallacy.     The recent renegotiations proved that without doubt.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 14, 2016)

Well , another huge Eurovision thumbs down, looks like a massive Brexit vote now


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I assure you I have no feelings of entitlement to anything, nothing has been given to me in my life and I expect nothing from others.    I think this 'entitlement' you speak of is more a reflection of the way the EU works and why it is in such a mess.   People all over the continent feel entitled to a better life than their economies can provide, just look to Greece, Romania, Bulgaria and so many others, they feel entitled to the same standards of living as countries like Germany, France and the UK but without creating that wealth for themselves.   The EU and particularly the Euro Zone is a train chugging down the line to failure and if we are stupid enough we will buy a very expensive ticket to ride on it.

I feel your abject dislike that borders on hatred for people of a Brexit disposition is unhealthy and illogical.  Do you see these Brexiters making such outlandish accusations?
		
Click to expand...

I very deliberately didn't say that you had these feelings of entitlement - but from what I read and hear - very many others in the UK do, and these fears and resentments are driving their view.  And I don't think leaving will fix their feelings.  All that will change for these folks will be that we will not be in the EU and we will be faced with the complete and 100% uncertainly of 'what now'.

And as far as outlandish accusations - I assume you mean like those preposterously espoused by BoJo yesterday.  Comparing the EU to Nazi Germany; and stating that it was Germany's plan all along to devastate the Italian car industry - thereby knackering the Italian economy and meanwhile turning Greece into a basket case economy and stopping the UK economy flourishing into something beyond our wildest dreams..  Yup - all part of the German master plan for the EU.  

I don't hate anyone - I do rather despair at the continued and complete rejection by Brexit of any attempt by anyone to explain or point out the risks and issues around leaving and ignoring what we have today - which is not all bad.  You have said you'll go by gut feeling.  Fair enough.  But we leave and we're going to be led by BoJo, IDS, Chris Greyling, Gove.  Well.  My gut instinct tells me that that is not a great prospect.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2016)

The rhetoric on both sides has been getting gradually more OTT but boris (who my phone wants to autocorrect to "virus" incidentally) has outdone them all in ridiculousness with his hitler nonsense.

Cancel the referendum, British politics is an embarrassment to us all.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I very deliberately didn't say that you had these feelings of entitlement - but from what I read and hear - very many others in the UK do, and these fears and resentments are driving their view.  And I don't think leaving will fix their feelings.  All that will change for these folks will be that we will not be in the EU and we will be faced with the complete and 100% uncertainly of 'what now'.

And as far as outlandish accusations - I assume you mean like those preposterously espoused by BoJo yesterday.  Comparing the EU to Nazi Germany; and stating that it was Germany's plan all along to devastate the Italian car industry - thereby knackering the Italian economy and meanwhile turning Greece into a basket case economy and stopping the UK economy flourishing into something beyond our wildest dreams..  Yup - all part of the German master plan for the EU.  

I don't hate anyone - I do rather despair at the continued and complete rejection by Brexit of any attempt by anyone to explain or point out the risks and issues around leaving and ignoring what we have today - which is not all bad.  You have said you'll go by gut feeling.  Fair enough.  But we leave and we're going to be led by BoJo, IDS, Chris Greyling, Gove.  Well.  My gut instinct tells me that that is not a great prospect.
		
Click to expand...

We will be led by whoever the country puts in power and thats the big issue"Who the UK population puts in power"   Not a UK government that is overseen by a superstate.   We will be led by politicians just like we do now, do you honestly believe they are going to quit politics if the vote goes against them.  I think not.


----------



## Foxholer (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*We will be led by whoever the country puts in power *and thats the big issue"Who the UK population puts in power"   Not a UK government that is overseen by a superstate.   We will be led by politicians just like we do now, do you honestly believe they are going to quit politics if the vote goes against them.  I think not.
		
Click to expand...

No we won't!

Did the UK population put Gordon Brown into power? Absolutely not! In fact, they voted him (and his Party) out at the first opportunity!

So it is - and will be - 'the Party' that puts Cameron's successor, if there is to be one, into power. That's one of the illusions (delusions?) of Westminister 'democracy'!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			No we won't!

Did the UK population put Gordon Brown into power? Absolutely not! In fact, they voted him (and his Party) out at the first opportunity!

So it is - and will be - 'the Party' that puts Cameron's successor, if there is to be one, into power. That's one of the illusions (delusions?) of Westminister 'democracy'!
		
Click to expand...

*Of course we will*, we are always ruled by the people we put in power.

If you want to comment on my posts then please try to keep up, once again I suppose I have to repeat to you that it's best to actually read and inwardly digest something before replying . 
 The post was not about how to elect a Prime minister but  the people who are in Parliament.  I made the point that which ever way the referendum goes they will still be there and their successors will be selected by the voters.

Hope thats easy enough for you to follow (If you bother to read it that is)


----------



## Foxholer (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*Of course we will*, we are always ruled by the people we put in power.

If you want to comment on my posts then please try to keep up, once again I suppose I have to repeat to you that it's best to actually read and inwardly digest something before replying . 
 The post was not about how to elect a Prime minister but  the people who are in Parliament.  I made the point that which ever way the referendum goes they will still be there and their successors will be selected by the voters.

Hope thats easy enough for you to follow (If you bother to read it that is)
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:

As it's Sunday....Luke 4:23!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:

As it's Sunday....Luke 4:23!
		
Click to expand...

What an odd post     But then again!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2016)

Please don't suggest that the Tories were elected on the basis that BoJo would be PM and Gove Chancellor.  I don't think so.


----------



## Hobbit (May 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please don't suggest that the Tories were elected on the basis that BoJo would be PM and Gove Chancellor.  I don't think so.
		
Click to expand...

Please no!

I'll be voting Labour if there's a hint of a chance of that duo... mind you, Labour will need to dump comrade Corbyn.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please don't suggest that the Tories were elected on the basis that BoJo would be PM and Gove Chancellor.  I don't think so.
		
Click to expand...

Where was that suggested?   However, I think you are underestimating their intellect, they are both very clever people. To me preferable to Pantsdown, Kinnochio, Major Eyeswater and Camooron.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Where was that suggested?   However, I think you are underestimating their intellect, they are both very clever people. To me preferable to Pantsdown, Kinnochio, Major Eyeswater and Camooron.
		
Click to expand...

Boris? Intellect? The man's a complete buffoon.


----------



## Old Skier (May 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Boris? Intellect? The man's a complete buffoon.
		
Click to expand...

unfortunately not, and it appears some have fallen for his act.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Boris? Intellect? The man's a complete buffoon.
		
Click to expand...

Buffon he is not.   He has achieved more than most people can dream about in his 52 years.    Read a bit about his life to date and reconsider that comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Buffon he is not.   He has achieved more than most people can dream about in his 52 years.    Read a bit about his life to date and reconsider that comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

Click to expand...

Ok. Still a buffoon.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ok. Still a buffoon.
		
Click to expand...

OK Karen


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK Karen 

Click to expand...

I knew I could convince you :lol:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Buffon he is not.   He has achieved more than most people can dream about in his 52 years.    Read a bit about his life to date and reconsider that comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

Click to expand...

Well why the heck does he act like a buffoon and spout idiotic and mendacious rubbish.  The sort of stuff that has callers to LBC phone in's declaring - yes - Boris is right - the EU is just like Hitler and Napoleon, all hell bent on dictatorial European domination.  

Even if that were true surely the best way to minimise the risk to the UK brought about by a European dictator would be to continue to engage as fully as possible with him - not walk away, then try and re-engage with him and, 'a la Chamberlain', eventually wave a bit of paper saying 'everything is fine - I've managed to arrange a trade deal with the EU'.

Anyway - not a lot of point in trying to convince those who have decided through gut feeling that Leaving is the best thing to do.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2016)

And so today in the post I get my copy of 'The 2016 EU referendum Voting Guide'

In it both _Leave _and _Remain_ have one side of A5 to state their case.  

And so what to _Leave_ choose to highlight




			EU law controls UK immigration policy
		
Click to expand...

Really? - the EU controls immigration policy for non-EU immigration?




			'The EU costs us Â£350 million a week...'
		
Click to expand...

OK - we might well accept that it does - but _Leave_ go on to state 




			'If we Vote Leave...We will take back control.  We will stop sending Â£350 million of our money to Brussels every week and instead spend it on our priorities like the NHS
		
Click to expand...

Oh come on _Leave_ - you know that that is disingenuous - but hey - who cares.  

Except clearly _Leave_ think that of all the facts and statements they could put on one side of A5 - these are two of the five things they choose to highlight - one other being that the EU is growing (true-ish - as it might grow); another being a repeat of the Â£350million cost; and the last being about Remaining.

And that is it.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so today in the post I get my copy of 'The 2016 EU referendum Voting Guide'

In it both _Leave _and _Remain_ have one side of A5 to state their case.  

And so what to _Leave_ choose to highlight



Really? - the EU controls immigration policy for non-EU immigration?



OK - we might well accept that it does - but _Leave_ go on to state 



Oh come on _Leave_ - you know that that is disingenuous - but hey - who cares.  

Except clearly _Leave_ think that of all the facts and statements they could put on one side of A5 - these are two of the five things they choose to highlight - one other being that the EU is growing (true-ish - as it might grow); another being a repeat of the Â£350million cost; and the last being about Remaining.

And that is it.
		
Click to expand...

Going to do the same cutting analysis for Remain? I don't support either at the mo, but don'tlike it when people so blatantly look at only one side.


----------



## jp5 (May 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And that is it.
		
Click to expand...

What did you make of remain's case?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2016)

jp5 said:



			What did you make of remain's case?
		
Click to expand...

_Remain _largely expressed benefits - that you may well disagree with or argue with.

But to have two key points as simply not true or hugely disingenuous.  The EU does not control UK immigration policy; and there will not be Â£350 million available for spending on the NHS.  Well actually I suppose there could be, but that would mean a lot of other stuff currently funded by the EU losing out.  Yes - I know that's the choice Brexit and their statement points out.  Control on spending that would mean the UK could spend Â£350 million on the NHS and let everything else EU-funded wither on the vine - or just immediately die.


----------



## jp5 (May 16, 2016)

I've not yet read the leaflet but perhaps will have the joy of doing so later. Is it the Electoral Commission one?

Undoubtedly the free movement of EU citizens does impact on our immigration policy, which ends up being a bit lopsided. Would like to see a more balanced approach to non-EU citizens as well, but not sure if leaving the EU is a price worth paying for that.

Not sure why Brexit are still peddling the Â£350m/week figure, takes all of 10 seconds to debunk that one. Could use the actual figure after the rebate, or even the figure after taking off EU grants that come back, and it would still be significant! Not a fan of jammy maths.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_Remain _largely expressed benefits - that you may well disagree with or argue with.

But to have two key points as simply not true or hugely disingenuous.  The EU does not control UK immigration policy; and there will not be Â£350 million available for spending on the NHS.  Well actually I suppose there could be, but that would mean a lot of other stuff currently funded by the EU losing out.  Yes - I know that's the choice Brexit and their statement points out.  Control on spending that would mean the UK could spend Â£350 million on the NHS and let everything else EU-funded wither on the vine - or just immediately die.
		
Click to expand...

Even your own post above doesn't say that Leave will spend Â£350 million on the NHS. It says that it will be spent on "our priorities like the NHS" not that it will all be spent on the NHS. You're bending what has been said to support your argument.


----------



## Fyldewhite (May 16, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even your own post above doesn't say that Leave will spend Â£350 million on the NHS. It says that it will be spent on "our priorities like the NHS" not that it will all be spent on the NHS. You're bending what has been said to support your argument.
		
Click to expand...

No he isn't, he's saying that the statement is disingenuous at best, lie at worst. It clearly is. As SILH explains, unless ALL the projects that benefit from funding from the EU are simply abandoned, there could NEVER be Â£350m to spend on "our priorities like the NHS". That's no spin, no slant, no misinformation......just simple logic.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_Remain _largely expressed benefits - that you may well disagree with or argue with.

But to have two key points as simply not true or hugely disingenuous.  The EU does not control UK immigration policy; and there will not be Â£350 million available for spending on the NHS.  Well actually I suppose there could be, but that would mean a lot of other stuff currently funded by the EU losing out.  Yes - I know that's the choice Brexit and their statement points out.  Control on spending that would mean the UK could spend Â£350 million on the NHS and let everything else EU-funded wither on the vine - or just immediately die.
		
Click to expand...

But those points are true.  We have no control of EU immigration, the free movement of people does not allow us any control on numbers coming here from the EU.  You know well that it's not talking about immigration from outside.

It also said that the Â£350 million could be spent on projects LIKE the NHS, it doesn't say it would be spent on the NHS only.   You also know that it has been said that the the amount we pay into the EU more than we get back could be spent on the NHS which is a different matter.

You continually give this blinkered one sided argument which really is disingenuous to use your own words.   Most people admit there will be risks which ever way we decide to go, it would be disingenuous to suggest there will be no risk to us if we stay in the EU.

Regarding our EU rebate; does anyone honestly believe this will be permanent and not wilted away in the future. Someone will have to fund the demise of the Euro Zone and the costs of more basket case economies joining.


----------



## Foxholer (May 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Regarding our EU rebate; does anyone honestly believe this will be permanent and not wilted away in the future. Someone will have to fund the demise of the Euro Zone and the costs of more basket case economies joining.
		
Click to expand...

The next time the Rebate will be negotiated will be about 2019, for period 2020-2027 (every 7 years). UK will have a Veto over any changes - as it has always had!

As a member of the EU, UK will also have a veto over new membership, whether basket cases or not, but only provided it is a member of the EU. If it is not, then it will have NO SAY!

As for 'You continually give this blinkered one sided argument...', see post 1984 !


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			No he isn't, he's saying that the statement is disingenuous at best, lie at worst. It clearly is. As SILH explains, unless ALL the projects that benefit from funding from the EU are simply abandoned, there could NEVER be Â£350m to spend on "our priorities like the NHS". That's no spin, no slant, no misinformation......just simple logic.
		
Click to expand...

Yes he is. What SiLH said was "there will not be Â£350 million available for spending on the NHS". My point was that the Leave campaign hadn't claimed that there would be. So unless you can point me to a link where the Leave campaign have said that there will be Â£350 million to spend on the NHS then he is bending what has been said to support his argument. 

Although I did think that the Â£350 million figure had been dismissed as incorrect by now and am surprised that it gets mentioned in official Leave literature.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 16, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The next time the Rebate will be negotiated will be about 2019, for period 2020-2027 (every 7 years). UK will have a Veto over any changes - as it has always had!

As a member of the EU, UK will also have a veto over new membership, whether basket cases or not, but only provided it is a member of the EU. If it is not, then it will have NO SAY!

As for 'You continually give this blinkered one sided argument...', see post 1984 !
		
Click to expand...

Oh! you're back, what a surprise   My little onerous Forum stalker troll; who cant resist making acidic comments to just about every one of my posts.   You know how this always ends up so why do you not just ignore me, go on, put me on your ignore list if you dont like anything I post.  You really are an oddball of the first order


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2016)

Just having a look at George Osbourne's speech from earlier today where he has said "leaving the single market - in which there are no tariffs, quotas or taxes on trade and where there is free movement of goods, services, capital and people - would cost Britain Â£200bn in a trade a year - as well as Â£200bn overseas investment". I'm not arguing for or against his figures here but I wish that he'd given details as to how and why it would cost us that much. If he'd said that these are the costs because of X, Y and Z then the Leave campaign would have to put up a more valid argument that simply "no it won't".


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 17, 2016)

David Cameron has said that the referendum is a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision. Using the Scottish referendum as a reference I can only assume that this means that the losing side will be calling for another referendum by June 2018.


----------



## Crazyface (May 18, 2016)

I'm STILL waiting for the remain people to counter the Â£350 MILLION from the leave people. If they can do that I'll start to listen.


----------



## Crazyface (May 18, 2016)

Plus the oldies I know and have spoken to don't care and aren't going to vote. The women at my misses work are voting to stay in, but have no idea why. 

Education eh? It's a wonderful thing!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I'm STILL waiting for the remain people to counter the Â£350 MILLION from the leave people. If they can do that I'll start to listen.
		
Click to expand...

The Â£350 million is our gross contribution before our rebate is considered. As the rebate is deducted from our contribution, rather than being paid and then refunded, we never actually pay the full amount. I think the actual figure is somewhere between Â£225 and Â£275 million depending on which figures you look at.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2016)

The following figures are from fullfact.org........

In 2015 the UK should have paid Â£18 billion to the EU.
The rebate reduced this to Â£13 billion.
This works out as Â£250 million per week.
In the same year there was Â£4 billion of EU spending on the UK, mainly to farmers and the poorer regions.


----------



## Old Skier (May 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			David Cameron has said that the referendum is a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision. Using the Scottish referendum as a reference I can only assume that this means that the losing side will be calling for another referendum by June 2018.
		
Click to expand...

If we stay he will have to change current EU legislation in Parliament to make this true as it is in UK Law that any significant changes in the way the EU operate would automatically result in a further referendum. He seems to conveniently forget the commitments that have already been made to the British people.  Mind you he was in favour of leaving if his none ratified concessions didn't get through.


----------



## Fyldewhite (May 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes he is. What SiLH said was "there will not be Â£350 million available for spending on the NHS". My point was that the Leave campaign hadn't claimed that there would be. So unless you can point me to a link where the Leave campaign have said that there will be Â£350 million to spend on the NHS then he is bending what has been said to support his argument. 

Although I did think that the Â£350 million figure had been dismissed as incorrect by now and am surprised that it gets mentioned in official Leave literature.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/campaign

Disingenuous? Lie? .......you decide.


----------



## Old Skier (May 18, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/campaign

Disingenuous? Lie? .......you decide.
		
Click to expand...

I think the idea of speeding up negotiations and being in control of our own destiny is more appealing.

We have heard a lot about how our security would be in danger if we leave as there wouldn't be a combined response to security matters,

Anyone who is interested in this area know that it is dealt with individualy by all nations along with who tells who what.

It does seem strange that Britain reached satisfactory security measure on air travel with the USA within a few months were as the EU has been going around in circles of the simple matter of coperation of passing information on air travel, so far the negotiations have been going on for 10 years and still no firm agreement has come about.

The EU is like negotiation via committee and all those that have or sit on a committee know the bigger it is the less likely a quick and simple outcome is achieved.


----------



## vkurup (May 18, 2016)

those who say 200, 300, 350b extra will be spent on the NHS & others if we remain ... can i ask where do those billions come from?

those billions are generated from trade ... which a majority of ... hang on.. comes from the EU.  So if trade goes down, then the only way to generate the billions is raise taxes....


----------



## Old Skier (May 18, 2016)

vkurup said:



			those billions are generated from trade ... which a majority of ... hang on.. comes from the EU.  So if trade goes down, then the only way to generate the billions is raise taxes....
		
Click to expand...

As a net importer, how does trade go down? Will country's no longer sell us gear because we left the EU.


----------



## Fyldewhite (May 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			The EU is like negotiation via committee and all those that have or sit on a committee know the bigger it is the less likely a quick and simple outcome is achieved.
		
Click to expand...

Fully agree. All government (dictatorships aside) is like this though from local councils, through regional, national and international bodies. Just look at the the UN??? The EU is nothing special in this regard......except when folk are trying to make a case for it being bad. Some would argue that consensus (although it often takes a long time to achieve) is actually a good thing.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 18, 2016)

Just been reading some of the work practices of Ladbrokes...

And, according to remainers, workers are better off while we are part of the EU...

Yeah right, no way Jose... In or out management still tiddle on their workforce...

Wish they'd stop pedalling misinformation...
And, those on the left, supporting remain should be hanging their heads in shame...

Hey ho  'power to the people'....


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The following figures are from fullfact.org........

In 2015 the UK should have paid Â£18 billion to the EU.
The rebate reduced this to Â£13 billion.
This works out as Â£250 million per week.
In the same year there was Â£4 billion of EU spending on the UK, mainly to farmers and the poorer regions.
		
Click to expand...

Well said Colch  :thup:

So basically, the Remain'ers are banging on about getting Â£350m back but if we leave then we save BILLIONS  

#nobrainer


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 18, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Well said Colch  :thup:

So basically, the Remain'ers are banging on about getting Â£350m back but if we leave then we save BILLIONS  

#nobrainer
		
Click to expand...

If I stop eating, I save loads of money as well. May not work out quite so well in the long term. Simple equations such as that rarely, if ever, work in practice.


----------



## Foxholer (May 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As a net importer, how does trade go down? Will country's no longer sell us gear because we left the EU.
		
Click to expand...

It becomes more expensive!

UK becomes less attractive for investors, so loses the trade - and the jobs taxes etc involved - that their investment brings.

Basic economics laws (of supply and demand), so the overall economy suffers!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The following figures are from fullfact.org........

In 2015 the UK should have paid Â£18 billion to the EU.
The rebate reduced this to Â£13 billion.
This works out as Â£250 million per week.
In the same year there was Â£4 billion of EU spending on the UK, mainly to farmers and the poorer regions.
		
Click to expand...




drive4show said:



			Well said Colch  :thup:

So basically, the Remain'ers are banging on about getting Â£350m back but if we leave then we save BILLIONS  

#nobrainer
		
Click to expand...

The real question isn't can we save billions by leaving but more did we get value for money for our nett Â£9 billion contribution in 2015. The Remain side will argue that the benefits we get from membership are worth more than that while Leave will say that they aren't.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As a net importer, how does trade go down? Will country's no longer sell us gear because we left the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Of course trade will not go down.  It's a case of 'Supply and Demand'   The EU will want to sell their goods to us and will not want us to apply import tariffs such that they will be worse off.   We will want them to purchase our goods and also won't want them to apply tariffs.  As we purchase more from them than they do from us it's a simple case of of common sense that the EU would be very very keen on agreeing  a tariff free trade agreement.    It really is basic economics.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 18, 2016)

Simple Economics: 

[video=youtube;ITRRBlrQVEY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRRBlrQVEY[/video]


----------



## Foxholer (May 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Simple Economics: 

[video=youtube;ITRRBlrQVEY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRRBlrQVEY[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Interesting to see you post a vid from someone who is absolutely convinced, unlike you, that the Euro/ECB will not 'collapse'!

The truth is that Economists are never (and can never be) wrong - even those that take completely attitudes! That doesn't mean that *Laws* of Economics are not sound!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Interesting to see you post a vid from someone who is absolutely convinced, unlike you, that the Euro/ECB will not 'collapse'!

The truth is that Economists are never (and can never be) wrong - even those that take completely attitudes! That doesn't mean that *Laws* of Economics are not sound!
		
Click to expand...

True to form, He's back.   Why am I not surprised


----------



## Old Skier (May 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It becomes more expensive!

UK becomes less attractive for investors, so loses the trade - and the jobs taxes etc involved - that their investment brings.

Basic economics laws (of supply and demand), so the overall economy suffers!
		
Click to expand...

So your theory is that because we leave the EU we become less attractive to investors so those that sell stuff to us are going to charge us more. Strange theory.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even your own post above doesn't say that Leave will spend Â£350 million on the NHS. It says that it will be spent on "our priorities like the NHS" not that it will all be spent on the NHS. You're bending what has been said to support your argument.
		
Click to expand...

I'll add then that in the context of the Â£350m a week cost of being in the EU - the leaflet states that that would fund 600,000 nurses.  Well - divide Â£350million by 600,000 and you get about Â£30,000 - which is about the average salary of an NHS nurse.  

The implication is therefore very clear.  We all know the NHS is struggling and needs massive investment to be the NHS 'we all want'.  We stop putting Â£350m a week into the EU and instead divert that Â£350m into the NHS - and we can fund 600,000 nurses.  Which is probably more than we need but think of all other aspects of the NHS that could be funded out of the Â£350m after we have sorted the nursing situation.  

Sorted.  Use a monetary amount that is correct in some contexts; to address a real emotional need that we'd all nod our heads about; imply a conclusion that one can sort the other; and gloss over what else would suffer if that's what was done.


----------



## larmen (May 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So your theory is that because we leave the EU we become less attractive to investors so those that sell stuff to us are going to charge us more. Strange theory.
		
Click to expand...

They don't charge you more. They charge you the same,and then YOUR government is charging YOU import duty on the stuff they sold you at the same price.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 18, 2016)

larmen said:



			They don't charge you more. They charge you the same,and then YOUR government is charging YOU import duty on the stuff they sold you at the same price.
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.  Our Government has no obligation to charge import tariffs, this is often used in a reciprocal manner to countries that charge the same to your exports.   World prices are generally lower that EU prices, if we trade without import duties around the world then it no longer becomes a problem.   The EU could decide whether or not they wish to sell their goods to us at competitive prices.


----------



## Foxholer (May 18, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So your theory is that because we leave the EU we become less attractive to investors so those that sell stuff to us are going to charge us more. Strange theory.
		
Click to expand...



2 separate results!

1. Trade becomes more expensive!

2. UK becomes less attractive to investors.....


----------



## SocketRocket (May 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So your theory is that because we leave the EU we become less attractive to investors so those that sell stuff to us are going to charge us more. Strange theory.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct, that is a strange theory.    World prices are lower that the hiked up protectionist ones in the EU.   Away from the EU we are free to trade at these lower prices and without tariffs, I think the EU would be very keen to continue selling into our market whereby we would have a whole bunch of new options.      The other thing Remainers are missing is that the procedure to leave would take two years while things would remain as they are during negotiations.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 19, 2016)

This video tries to explain what goes on in the EU.

[video=youtube;UTMxfAkxfQ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0[/video]


----------



## Foxholer (May 19, 2016)

Trade with the EU is much more important (about 50%) to the UK than trade with the UK is for the EU (about 10%)!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Trade with the EU is much more important (about 50%) to the UK than trade with the UK is for the EU (about 10%)!
		
Click to expand...

Good use of statistics there! If you convert those percentages into pounds or euros then we are worth an awful lot more to the EU than they are to us.


----------



## Foxholer (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Good use of statistics there! If you convert those percentages into pounds or euros then we are worth an awful lot more to the EU than they are to us.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, there is a trading deficit - UK buy's more from the EU than it sells to it. But converting it to percentage figures validly indicates the relative importance (as opposed to simply the values) to each side.

As an analogy....while neither option would likely be 'desirable', would you sooner lose 10% of your income or 50%?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			As an analogy....while neither option would likely be 'desirable', would you sooner lose 10% of your income or 50%?
		
Click to expand...

I understand your point but losing 50% of my UK income may be (made up numbers) Â£100b but Europe losing 10% of it's income may be Â£500b

If they try to make it difficult for us to trade with them then ultimately they are the losers.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Good use of statistics there! If you convert those percentages into pounds or euros then we are worth an awful lot more to the EU than they are to us.
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct Gordon.   It's silly for anyone to suggest that the EU would not trade with us if we left, the other point is the Lion's Share of their trade with us is from a few of the bigger countries, imagine BMW , Mercedes, Citron etc deciding they would not want to sell us Millions of their cars a year.   It's absolute stupidity for people to use these scare stories we are the EUâ€™s biggest customer â€“ larger than China and the US â€“  and no business (let alone the EU) would want to cut off ties with such a valuable customer as Britain.


----------



## Foxholer (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I understand your point but losing 50% of my UK income may be (made up numbers) Â£100b but Europe losing 10% of it's income may be Â£500b

If they try to make it difficult for us to trade with them then ultimately they are the losers.
		
Click to expand...

Er...Nice effect of the 'made up numbers'!  And you comment on my 'use of statistics'!  

The actual 'effect for the EU' will be the same value as the' effect for the UK' plus the 'amount of the EU-UK trade surplus/deficit'!

They may (or may not) be losers, but their loss is likely to be less of a concern (given their far greater size) than the likely loss of sales are to UK!

Nobody is suggesting that UK-EU trade will not happen! Just that it will be more expensive, so reduce! And that particular trade, while important to both sides, is more important to UK than it is to the EU!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Nice effect of the 'made up numbers'!  And you comment on my 'use of statistics'!  

The actual 'effect for the EU' will be the same value as the' effect for the UK' plus the 'amount of the EU-UK trade surplus/deficit'!

They may (or may not) be losers, but their loss is likely to be less of a concern (given their far greater size) than the likely loss of sales are to UK!

Nobody is suggesting that UK-EU trade will not happen! Just that it will be more expensive, so reduce! And that particular trade, while important to both sides, is more important to UK than it is to the EU!
		
Click to expand...

It's OK - Gove thinks we need not worry that much about trading in the single market - being external to the single market is fine

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/ft-he...t-after-vote-to-leave-eu-gove-admits-cm617956

And of course we'll be building new trading links with rest of the world - I guess that's the USA and BRIC countries.  That'll be 'America First' USA and Brazil (bust), Russia (hmm), India (existing major commonwealth trading partner) and China (not so hot these days)


----------



## SocketRocket (May 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's OK - Gove thinks we need not worry that much about trading in the single market - being external to the single market is fine

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/ft-he...t-after-vote-to-leave-eu-gove-admits-cm617956


And of course we'll be building new trading links with rest of the world - I guess that's the USA and BRIC countries.  That'll be 'America First' USA and Brazil (bust), Russia (hmm), India (existing major commonwealth trading partner) and China (not so hot these days)
		
Click to expand...

Go to post 2025 and watch the video.  There is an academic on economics explaining why leaving the EU and opening up trade would be very good for the UK.    He debunks a lot of myths being put out on how our economy would be put in danger.   After looking at it come back and make an argument based on what he says.

Britain is a global trading power and exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe.
Britain has the worldâ€™s 6th largest economy and is set to become the largest in Europe by 2035.
The EUâ€™s share of world GDP is in terminal decline. In 1980, the EUâ€™s world share of GDP was 26%. It is now just 20%, and will have fallen to 15% by 2020.


----------



## Hobbit (May 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's OK - Gove thinks we need not worry that much about trading in the single market - being external to the single market is fine

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/ft-he...t-after-vote-to-leave-eu-gove-admits-cm617956

And of course we'll be building new trading links with rest of the world - I guess that's the USA and BRIC countries.  That'll be 'America First' USA and Brazil (bust), Russia (hmm), India (existing major commonwealth trading partner) and China (not so hot these days)
		
Click to expand...

I posted earlier in this thread the govt's figures for the countries we trade with. Before lapping up the propaganda you need to do some of your own research.


----------



## Foxholer (May 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...

Britain is a global trading power and exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe.
Britain has the worldâ€™s 6th largest economy and is set to become the largest in Europe by 2035.
The EUâ€™s share of world GDP is in terminal decline. In 1980, the EUâ€™s world share of GDP was 26%. It is now just 20%, and will have fallen to 15% by 2020.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me this is actually an argument for keeping the status quo - ie Remain!

Britain has (supposedly, as there is no reference to data) done, or will do, all this while a member of the 'failing' EU!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me this is actually an argument for keeping the status quo - ie Remain!

Britain has (supposedly, as there is no reference to data) done, or will do, all this while a member of the 'failing' EU!
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, but the Leave argument is that we could do so much better if we weren't hogtied by EU regulations.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me this is actually an argument for keeping the status quo - ie Remain!

Britain has (supposedly, as there is no reference to data) done, or will do, all this while a member of the 'failing' EU!
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely not.  Britain is currently forced to pay prices well above World prices due to EU protectionism.  If we were free from the EU we could trade without tariff at lower prices which would benefit our trade and wealth.  We should not apply tariffs to any of our goods which would make them more competitive on the world market.   If the EU then decided to apply export tariffs it would make their products less competitive to us.   We may find that the EU and a few other countries would like a trade agreement with us  and we could negotiate something mutually beneficial. No brainer really.


----------



## vkurup (May 20, 2016)

While this thread is interesting and now well over 2K posts.. Should this be locked.. 

Reading thru the argument and counter argument, it is clear that not a single soul on the forum is going to switch sides. So why not do something more productive like HNSP or how to correctly place rake in a bunker or if women should be allowed into clubs...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2016)

Scotland, Wales and NI's rural areas heavily depend on EU subsidies for farming, [arguably] fishing and development.
Both farming and fishing are devolved matters in the UK, if we leave the EU do you think the UK government will support the lost EU subsidy?

I think not. 
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me this is actually an argument for keeping the status quo - ie Remain!

Britain has (supposedly, as there is no reference to data) done, or will do, all this while a member of the 'failing' EU!
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - it does seem that Brexit tend to gloss over the fact that our strengths (and weaknesses) today have been built up over a period of 40 years in the context of UK being in the EU.  Of course we'll never know whether UK might have been better or wore off had the last 40yrs in the EU never happened.  But the UK is a relatively strong economy today, and we *have *been in the EU, and it is on that EU-based economic strength that Brexit seem to build much of their case.

And so the claim

_Absolutely, but the Leave argument is that we could do so much better if we weren't hogtied by EU regulations._

has no basis.  It could be true - were UK not subject to any EU regulations - but I just can't see that being the case.  And the UK would have to bring in it's own to replace many of those it dumped - and it would.  I just don't see the 'less regulation' argument actually coming to pass - and even if it does I don't think there would be that much 'red-tape' - the difference would not make much of a difference.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2016)

vkurup said:



			While this thread is interesting and now well over 2K posts.. Should this be locked.. 

Reading thru the argument and counter argument, it is clear that not a single soul on the forum is going to switch sides. So why not do something more productive like HNSP or how to correctly place rake in a bunker or if women should be allowed into clubs...
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely - my playing partner on a 'freebie' day out on Tuesday clearly had no idea of the HNSP and I had to ask him to move on a couple of occasions - from standing right being me on my line.  Tsk!  

Anyway - back to the EU.


----------



## vkurup (May 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Go to post 2025 and watch the video.  There is an academic on economics explaining why leaving the EU and opening up trade would be very good for the UK.    He debunks a lot of myths being put out on how our economy would be put in danger.   After looking at it come back and make an argument based on what he says.

*Britain is a global trading power and exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe.
Britain has the worldâ€™s 6th largest economy and is set to become the largest in Europe by 2035.
The EUâ€™s share of world GDP is in terminal decline. In 1980, the EUâ€™s world share of GDP was 26%. It is now just 20%, and will have fallen to 15% by 2020.*

Click to expand...

True Britain has a global status. One of the pillars of that (and mainly contributing to inward trade) is it unique position of bridge into Europe, a stable economy, a stable govt and strong legal system.  You take Britain's bridging position out of play then that inward trade will move elsewhere.  Similar story with Hong Kong and China.  Why do companies that want to trade with China go thru HK rather an China direct. 

Over 75% of the economy is services economy and financial services makes a big part of it.  As compared to a manufacturing facility, it is lot easier to move financial services operations out of UK in case of a Brexit.  Similar story when some of the firms and banks announced plans to move south of the border in case of a Scottish referendum.   

The British economy as a whole is the 5th largest, but with another scottish referendum, it will grow smaller. 

True the EU share of the world trade has gone down (but not in terminal decline). However that masks the the fact that the EU has grown bigger at the same time by including smaller economies. So the average is bound to come down. Also this referendum is not about 'joining' the EU and therefore diluting our current position, but about staying in and getting stronger

There are rational figures that can poke holes in either side, but this thread wont swing any votes..


----------



## USER1999 (May 20, 2016)

Obviously adding Keira Knightly to the remain campaign has totally changed my view on the situation.

She is clearly a very astute and knowledgeable person.

Or an actress or something.


----------



## Crazyface (May 20, 2016)

You can argue all day and night on this but the vote will go with the remain fools. People fear change.


----------



## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely not.  Britain is currently forced to pay prices well above World prices due to EU protectionism.  If we were free from the EU we could trade without tariff at lower prices which would benefit our trade and wealth.  We should not apply tariffs to any of our goods which would make them more competitive on the world market.   If the EU then decided to apply export tariffs it would make their products less competitive to us.   We may find that the EU and a few other countries would like a trade agreement with us  and we could negotiate something mutually beneficial. No brainer really.
		
Click to expand...

Some concrete examples please! EU Has many Free/Preferential Trade Agreements either already in place or is currently negotiating them. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/index_en.htm#_europe

In fact, SE/Australasia and most of the Soviet areas apart, pretty much the entire world is covered!

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149622.png

And without references for your figures in the earlier post (#2042), I'm inclined to think they were simply manufactured!

Here's another paper (from 2014, but still relevant) I came across that, while 'pro-European but not uncritical', seems to answer the economy queries pretty well! https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/defaul...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf


----------



## jp5 (May 20, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The British economy as a whole is the 5th largest, but with another scottish referendum, it will grow smaller.
		
Click to expand...

Taking out Scotland, we'd still be the 5th largest economy - just by a slightly smaller margin! Though that vote's another 50 years in the future.

The status quo voters will swing it. In a vote to leave, remain will win. In a hypothetical vote to join, staying out would win.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 20, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			You can argue all day and night on this but the vote will go with the remain fools. People fear change.
		
Click to expand...



Unless it's a truely landslide vote to exit Cameron and cronies will be keeping us in one way or another...


----------



## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

The UK economy isn't all rosy!

UK industry is actually 'in recession'! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36266178

And it seems that having a Trade Deficit (as UK has with the EU) isn't such a good thing either! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36256358


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland, Wales and NI's rural areas heavily depend on EU subsidies for farming, [arguably] fishing and development.
Both farming and fishing are devolved matters in the UK, *if we leave the EU do you think the UK government will support the lost EU subsidy?*

I think not. 
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.
		
Click to expand...

Well those voters still have to eat so if we can subsidise and produce food cheaper than importing it then why not carry on with the subsidy?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			You can argue all day and night on this but the vote will go with the remain fools. People fear change.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are right.
That is what happened in Scotland, many undecided's voted for no change at the last minute.
The devil you know etc.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Well those voters still have to eat so if we can subsidise and produce food cheaper than importing it then why not carry on with the subsidy?
		
Click to expand...

Good luck with your Chinese Whiskey, Vietnamese fish and Egyptian potatoes then


----------



## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.
		
Click to expand...

Given that Cities are traditionally Labour strongholds, I'd suggest that such action is not 'politically motivated', but 'the right thing to do' - even if they seem somewhat London-centric! It is even be suggested, with quite a bit of evidence, that faster links to London actually encourage people to live away from London

Expansion of UK Air links is desperately needed! It's just a case of where/how!

And Rail links are, similarly, desperately in need of upgrading/improvement! Whether HS2/3 is the answer is debatable, but the Electrification and the London-Kent upgrades have been particular successes imo!

Going OT somewhat, but a particular 'pet desire' of mine....I'd love to see a change in the way freight moves! If it could somehow change from Road based to (predominately) Rail based, then there's be huge benefits imo. Given proper links/hubs, it would mean faster delivery, lower cost and far less road congestion by lorries! Another huge investment that's unlikely to happen, but.....


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Some concrete examples please! EU Has many Free/Preferential Trade Agreements either already in place or is currently negotiating them. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/index_en.htm#_europe

In fact, SE/Australasia and most of the Soviet areas apart, pretty much the entire world is covered!

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149622.png

And without references for your figures in the earlier post (#2042), I'm inclined to think they were simply manufactured!

Here's another paper (from 2014, but still relevant) I came across that, while 'pro-European but not uncritical', seems to answer the economy queries pretty well! https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/defaul...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

Click to expand...


I will give you no examples, you are not listening to me   I have explained time and time again that I don't wish to have any discussion with you on anything.  You have a weird obsession with trolling my every post and it's almost like an oddball obsession with you, it has created a number of bans whereby we have been advised to keep at arms length.    Please keep away and I will do the same, otherwise you will just get more of this type of reply.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland, Wales and NI's rural areas heavily depend on EU subsidies for farming, [arguably] fishing and development.
Both farming and fishing are devolved matters in the UK, if we leave the EU do you think the UK government will support the lost EU subsidy?

I think not. 
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.
		
Click to expand...

If we were not in the EU then arguably the Farming and Fishing Industries would not need subsidies as we would not be trying to create artificially high prices, we could produce and sell our commodities at world prices.  If we did need to support and particular industries like 'Steel' then we would be free to do so.


----------



## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I will give you no examples, you are not listening to me   I have explained time and time again that I don't wish to have any discussion with you on anything.  You have a weird obsession with trolling my every post and it's almost like an oddball obsession with you, it has created a number of bans whereby we have been advised to keep at arms length.    Please keep away and I will do the same, otherwise you will just get more of this type of reply.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


Foxholer said:



			And without references for your figures in the earlier post (#2042), I'm inclined to think they were simply manufactured!
		
Click to expand...

I'll go with this then!

My only 'obsession' is the provision of evidence for statements backing up numbers quoted or opinions specified as facts! Politicians peddle that sort of twaddle as part (indeed almost as a requirement) of their occupation, but I don't believe it's something that should be part of a proper 'debate' - especially given the 'based on honesty' nature of the game that brings members of this forum together!

I have no issues with anyone having a different opinion to me, but would reserve the right to counter that opinion and certainly any statement that I believe is either wrong in fact or uses any sort of statistic in a misleading way! I'm not so intransigent  that I can't be convinced to change my opinion, but it takes more than just invented/misused numbers to do so!

Oh. And you are wrong about my 'trolling my every post'!

Edit:
Here endeth the sermon! No reply is needed or expected/wanted! It would only indicate that you are a troll, something I don't currently believe is the case!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:


I'll go with this then!

My only 'obsession' is the provision of evidence for statements backing up numbers quoted or opinions specified as facts! Politicians peddle that sort of twaddle as part (indeed almost as a requirement) of their occupation, but I don't believe it's something that should be part of a proper 'debate' - especially given the 'based on honesty' nature of the game that brings members of this forum together!

I have no issues with anyone having a different opinion to me, but would reserve the right to counter that opinion and certainly any statement that I believe is either wrong in fact or uses any sort of statistic in a misleading way! I'm not so intransigent  that I can't be convinced to change my opinion, but it takes more than just invented/misused numbers to do so!

Oh. And you are wrong about my 'trolling my every post'!
		
Click to expand...

Not interested!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Given that Cities are traditionally Labour strongholds, I'd suggest that such action is not 'politically motivated', but 'the right thing to do' - even if they seem somewhat London-centric! It is even be suggested, with quite a bit of evidence, that faster links to London actually encourage people to live away from London

Expansion of UK Air links is desperately needed! It's just a case of where/how!

And Rail links are, similarly, desperately in need of upgrading/improvement! Whether HS2/3 is the answer is debatable, but the Electrification and the London-Kent upgrades have been particular successes imo!

Going OT somewhat, but a particular 'pet desire' of mine....I'd love to see a change in the way freight moves! If it could somehow change from Road based to (predominately) Rail based, then there's be huge benefits imo. Given proper links/hubs, it would mean faster delivery, lower cost and far less road congestion by lorries! Another huge investment that's unlikely to happen, but.....
		
Click to expand...

Re last para........I was pleasantly surprised to find out that any large lorries passing through Switzerland have to drive onto specialised trains for the journey,
Stobbarts have a rail depot at Carlisle which moves containers off/on the lorries.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2016)

I think that Jean-Claude Junker's comments today might well prove to be a boost to the Leave campaign. He has said that "Deserters won't be welcomed with open arms" and "that this is not a threat, but our relations will not be as they are today". Unfortunately I think that a "threat" is exactly what some undecided voters will see it as and it could push them towards a vote to leave. I wish these people would think more carefully about how what they say will come across as I am sure he could have made the same point but with phrasing that wouldn't make it sound like a threat. Already there are comments from the Leave campaign that the Remain campaign are moving from "Project Fear" to "Project Threat".


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

vkurup said:



			True Britain has a global status. One of the pillars of that (and mainly contributing to inward trade) is it unique position of bridge into Europe, a stable economy, a stable govt and strong legal system.  You take Britain's bridging position out of play then that inward trade will move elsewhere.  Similar story with Hong Kong and China.  Why do companies that want to trade with China go thru HK rather an China direct. 

Over 75% of the economy is services economy and financial services makes a big part of it.  As compared to a manufacturing facility, it is lot easier to move financial services operations out of UK in case of a Brexit.  Similar story when some of the firms and banks announced plans to move south of the border in case of a Scottish referendum.   

The British economy as a whole is the 5th largest, but with another scottish referendum, it will grow smaller. 

True the EU share of the world trade has gone down (but not in terminal decline). However that masks the the fact that the EU has grown bigger at the same time by including smaller economies. So the average is bound to come down. Also this referendum is not about 'joining' the EU and therefore diluting our current position, but about staying in and getting stronger

There are rational figures that can poke holes in either side, but this thread wont swing any votes..
		
Click to expand...

Financial services are not in the UK by some random reason.  They are there because of the great expertise we have in this market sector and is not dependant on us being in the EU. 

There will not be another Scottish referendum for a long time,  The Scottish Parliament don't want independence now as it would be ruinous for their economy but more to the point the UK Government don't need to hold one.

You say this referendum is about staying in the EU and getting stronger.  How does that work?   The EU is a shrinking trading power, it will take in a number of countries with basket case economies in the future, it will continue to make decisions that we have no control over, we will have to accept ever higher levels of uncontrolled immigration that our service cannot cope with and will bring a long term drain on our finances.  Europe will continue to create subsidised high prices that pushes up the cost of living for the EU population.   If overseas investment in the UK is only to produce a bridge into the EU then why are they not doing it in countries within the EU with lower labour rates?   I believe that investment has been made due to our expertise and would continue to be so.   For example, Tata owns Jaguar Landrover and exports huge amounts of cars to countries like China.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 20, 2016)

How desperate has Osbourne become.  He now stands on a platform with Vince Cable which is bad enough but also with ED BALLS, yes, ED BALLS.   You really couldn't make it up, this is the man Osbourne was accusing of being involved in the Libor rate fixing scandal and completely dissing his ability in the Treasury and now he is a brother in arms.  This is a new low, even  better than Cameron with his bessies Kinnockio and Pantsdown.

:rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2016)

That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.     




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.     




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.
		
Click to expand...


Will this see the SNP drawn to swapping to Brexit?

As they are so desperate to punish Londoners...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Will this see the SNP drawn to swapping to Brexit?

As they are so desperate to punish Londoners...
		
Click to expand...

No...House prices in Scotland will fall as well but we are not so obsessed with them.

FYI..It is Scotland that is firmly for staying in, not just the SNP.


----------



## jp5 (May 21, 2016)

Osborne giving hope to millions of young people claiming that house prices will fall by 20%.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.     




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.
		
Click to expand...

whilst I wouldnt like to see prices fall if they fall by 2k average thats like a fart in the wind really isnt it.. you would make double if not more than that back in the next year rise

Im personally pro stay but I think its a stupid argument to throw out the house prices


----------



## vkurup (May 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Financial services are not in the UK by some random reason.  They are there because of the great expertise we have in this market sector and is not dependant on us being in the EU. 

There will not be another Scottish referendum for a long time,  The Scottish Parliament don't want independence now as it would be ruinous for their economy but more to the point the UK Government don't need to hold one.

You say this referendum is about staying in the EU and getting stronger.  How does that work?   The EU is a shrinking trading power, it will take in a number of countries with basket case economies in the future, it will continue to make decisions that we have no control over, we will have to accept ever higher levels of uncontrolled immigration that our service cannot cope with and will bring a long term drain on our finances.  Europe will continue to create subsidised high prices that pushes up the cost of living for the EU population.   If overseas investment in the UK is only to produce a bridge into the EU then why are they not doing it in countries within the EU with lower labour rates?   I believe that investment has been made due to our expertise and would continue to be so.   For example, Tata owns Jaguar Landrover and exports huge amounts of cars to countries like China.
		
Click to expand...

I agree we have the expertise. But not all of it is home grown. A large percentage of that expertise is also made of the 'immigrant' population who is attracted to the lifestyle and career opportunities.  I think everyone thinks of immigrants as someone who is unwelcome and will sponge off the state. We forget that the UK is also home to a very large highly skilled immigrant community who have roots here.  This community also has ability to relocate and work elsewhere if the opportunities disappear.  UK will lose skills that is needed. We have lost skills in the past when industries have shut down. Steel is another classic case. I am not talking about Jobber Joe, but there are some key skills in the industry that will disappear if we keep losing factories. If you dont factories then you cant get apprentices which means you wont train the next generation.  Wasn't Manchester the global powerhouse and center of the world when cotton was king less than a century ago.  I am not saying London will decline on the mid night of June 23rd. It will be a slow and steady erosion.

How do i feel about immigration.. i find the debate interesting and muddled up by the politicians who can twist everything to their advantage. I too can be classified as an 'immigrant' - though I chose to think I am more of a global citizen as I worked in about 7-8 countries before settling down in the UK. Both of us work hard, never had to use any social services in the time we have been here. The amount of taxes we pay helps many people to sit on their backside and watch Jeremy Kyle all day on their 60' plasma.   So will we relocate in case of a Brexit??  The real answer is dont know. In the short term, the answer is no.  however in the long term, if the opportunities that allow us to florish in the UK disappear or reduce then we may equally consider moving back to Australia or the US.  I am assuming that with both of us with two masters degrees and a wealth of exposure in our respective fields (technology and medicine) will be welcome into other countries. I MUST point out that this is not to say anyone is disloyal or a 'deserter' but to say that global talent is far more mobile than we think it is and it will chase the right opportunity so that it can florish.  At the moment, UK within a EU helps the technology sector and our clients to be competitive. If our clients suffer, we suffer. 

The 2nd Scottish referendum is bound to happen in case of a Brexit.  I agree that with the current low oil prices it is not the right time. Slippery SNP has already said that if things change fundamentally then they will go for a referendum.  The 'once in a generation' is an eyewash.   Will the Scots choose to stay in the UK if UK is not part of EU.. no one can predict the answer

while UK is part of the EU and we have had some terribly stupid laws that have been imposed, as long as we stay away from the monetary union (as we are today), we will continue to thrive (as we are today).  EU subsidies have been helping the farming and fishing industries. Yes, we could do better at saving the steel industry.  EU regulations allow countries to provide subsidies to industries which are of national importance - the UK govt CHOSE not invoke that during the steel crisis. Lets not mix facts with emotion. 

Location strategy for putting up manufacturing plants is complicated and mixes politics, economics, emotions et al. Tata owns Jaguar Land Rover and is CURRENTLY only manufactured here.  The demand for JLR is terrific and they have already announced plans to open new factories in Brazil (this year) and Slovakia (2018).  In the auto industry it is not uncommon to see sites compete for business against each other (we have seen it with Vauxhall). There is nothing stopping Tata to move production from UK to anywhere else if the economics demands.  Burburry a British brand (favoured by WAGS and CHAVS) prides itself on its british history, but moved its production to China to meet demand. Bentley is talking about China production.  As the world gets more integrated; talent, money and jobs will follow where it is best suited for them to flourish.  

I must say that I have nothing against those who want to vote for Leave. As long as they believe that emotionally that is where Britain is best placed. This is equally true for the Remain ones. Currently the rational bit of the argument however seem to favour the Remain one.


----------



## jp5 (May 21, 2016)

Most sane people have no problem with immigrants. The issue is purely numbers - expanding our population by a million people every few years whilst the government cutting spending on houses and services. 

If the gov spent the additional taxes collected from migrants there wouldn't be enough heat in the argument to have a referendum.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2016)

vkurup.......Ref2 is much more likely to happen over the 'Bill of Rights' than leaving the EU.
I know both are linked but Westminster [Boris/Nigel] cannot invoke the 'Bill of Rights' unless it has the support of the NI and Scottish parliaments.
Interesting times ahead.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I agree we have the expertise. But not all of it is home grown. A large percentage of that expertise is also made of the 'immigrant' population who is attracted to the lifestyle and career opportunities.  I think everyone thinks of immigrants as someone who is unwelcome and will sponge off the state. We forget that the UK is also home to a very large highly skilled immigrant community who have roots here.  This community also has ability to relocate and work elsewhere if the opportunities disappear.  UK will lose skills that is needed. We have lost skills in the past when industries have shut down. Steel is another classic case. I am not talking about Jobber Joe, but there are some key skills in the industry that will disappear if we keep losing factories. If you dont factories then you cant get apprentices which means you wont train the next generation.  Wasn't Manchester the global powerhouse and center of the world when cotton was king less than a century ago.  I am not saying London will decline on the mid night of June 23rd. It will be a slow and steady erosion.

How do i feel about immigration.. i find the debate interesting and muddled up by the politicians who can twist everything to their advantage. I too can be classified as an 'immigrant' - though I chose to think I am more of a global citizen as I worked in about 7-8 countries before settling down in the UK. Both of us work hard, never had to use any social services in the time we have been here. The amount of taxes we pay helps many people to sit on their backside and watch Jeremy Kyle all day on their 60' plasma.   So will we relocate in case of a Brexit??  The real answer is dont know. In the short term, the answer is no.  however in the long term, if the opportunities that allow us to florish in the UK disappear or reduce then we may equally consider moving back to Australia or the US.  I am assuming that with both of us with two masters degrees and a wealth of exposure in our respective fields (technology and medicine) will be welcome into other countries. I MUST point out that this is not to say anyone is disloyal or a 'deserter' but to say that global talent is far more mobile than we think it is and it will chase the right opportunity so that it can florish.  At the moment, UK within a EU helps the technology sector and our clients to be competitive. If our clients suffer, we suffer. 

The 2nd Scottish referendum is bound to happen in case of a Brexit.  I agree that with the current low oil prices it is not the right time. Slippery SNP has already said that if things change fundamentally then they will go for a referendum.  The 'once in a generation' is an eyewash.   Will the Scots choose to stay in the UK if UK is not part of EU.. no one can predict the answer

while UK is part of the EU and we have had some terribly stupid laws that have been imposed, as long as we stay away from the monetary union (as we are today), we will continue to thrive (as we are today).  EU subsidies have been helping the farming and fishing industries. Yes, we could do better at saving the steel industry.  EU regulations allow countries to provide subsidies to industries which are of national importance - the UK govt CHOSE not invoke that during the steel crisis. Lets not mix facts with emotion. 

Location strategy for putting up manufacturing plants is complicated and mixes politics, economics, emotions et al. Tata owns Jaguar Land Rover and is CURRENTLY only manufactured here.  The demand for JLR is terrific and they have already announced plans to open new factories in Brazil (this year) and Slovakia (2018).  In the auto industry it is not uncommon to see sites compete for business against each other (we have seen it with Vauxhall). There is nothing stopping Tata to move production from UK to anywhere else if the economics demands.  Burburry a British brand (favoured by WAGS and CHAVS) prides itself on its british history, but moved its production to China to meet demand. Bentley is talking about China production.  As the world gets more integrated; talent, money and jobs will follow where it is best suited for them to flourish.  

I must say that I have nothing against those who want to vote for Leave. As long as they believe that emotionally that is where Britain is best placed. This is equally true for the Remain ones. Currently the rational bit of the argument however seem to favour the Remain one.
		
Click to expand...


If I tried to reply like for line we would be getting into a rather long debate that is not suited to a Forum like this.  To address a few items I would comment:

I respect your situation but immigration does not create a tax surplus over time.  The longer immigrants live here the more they cost just like the UK born.   No one is saying immigration is bad for the country but many are saying it needs to be controlled so as to attract the skills the country  needs and reject those without them.   You mention Australia and the USA who do exactly that.

You say that if we stay in the EU we will continue to thrive as today.   Why do you attribute this to the EU? Most EU countries are economies are not thriving, quite the opposite, look at unemployment rates and especially for young people.   The EU is not a mechanism that creates thriving economies, I would say ours is doing well irrespective of the EU.   The EU does make subsidies to certain sectors and particularly with the CAP.  What they do is create artificially high prices to protect inefficient farming so that it's not affected by lower World Prices.  This means the EU populace has to pay higher food prices, subsidies are not good for people if they are long term and blocks out poor countries outside the cartel from selling to us.   When you talk about the EU helping business and industry remember there is no such thing as EU money, only our money that is being given back to us.

Regarding another Scottish referendum on independence.  Thats over for now and I explained that it's not in their interest, also the UK Government does not need to hold another one.  Scotland can demand one but it's up to the UK Government of which they are part to decide if they get it.

The UK out of the EU will be able to trade with the World and that includes Europe.  The EU will still want to sell to us on favourable terms and to do so will need to allow us access to their market.   I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks otherwise.   We will also be able to offer our goods Tariff free around the World, if our products are good and what people want then we will be able to sell them.   It's just market forces and supplying to the demand.

The EU is not democratic and we cannot affect it's onward journey towards a Single State.   Those that say we are better of sitting at the table and influencing the decisions are IMO deluded to the way things work.  just look at the pathetic results of our Government trying to get a few concessions on issues like EU immigration and you will see that we are defenceless and will have to accept whatever is thrown at us.

I cannot see how the rational argument is to stay. To me the main case to Remain is made by people either running scared or by very big rich institutions that have no national identity and are only really concerned that the UK leaving may put stress on their cartels.    As a Briton/Englishman I have great faith in our people and believe they deserve better than what they are currently being conned into.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.     




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.
		
Click to expand...

Seems a killer blow to the Remain campaign is the EU plans to ditch the NHS.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No...House prices in Scotland will fall as well but we are not so obsessed with them.

Click to expand...


The obsession being that our kids can no longer afford homes in 'the smoke'...


----------



## Hobbit (May 22, 2016)

OMG!

Industry will leave the UK in droves if we exit the EU. Its been happening for a few years now, and has nowt to do with the referendum. Companies have been moving manufacturing to places like the Czech Republic for cheap labour. EU laws forbid countries to subsidise industries as it creates unfair competition with industries in other EU countries.

So let's get out of the EU so that we can subsidise our industries to compete. Nooooooooo!!!! Let's stay in and have our industries fail, and employees go on benefits. Noooooo!!!! Let's cut the wages of our workers, and drive up poverty levels in the UK.

But, but, but staying in will give us better access for our industries. What industries? They've shut up shop and moved to the Czech Republic. 

When TATA Steel originally sold the blast furnace on Teesside to SSI they got the money from the sale. They got â‚¬660million from the EU for reducing the carbon emissions, and they got a massive grant and subsidies to open a plant in Holland. Obviously being in the EU is of a massive benefit to someone, but it wasn't UK industries.


----------



## vkurup (May 23, 2016)

If we leave... will we be able to play in the Euro 2016??...  Just when Roy H thought he had a good team, his whole team may be offside!!!


----------



## vkurup (May 23, 2016)

Some more for the Leave campaigners to drill holes into...  an interesting article, but unfortunately for the Leavers, it is full of stats that no one likes to hear about. 

*Hereâ€™s the economic reality of Brexit â€“ without the unicorn fantasy *
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-reality-brexit-eu-referendum-unicorn-fantasy


----------



## MarkE (May 23, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Some more for the Leave campaigners to drill holes into...  an interesting article, but unfortunately for the Leavers, it is full of stats that no one likes to hear about. 

*Hereâ€™s the economic reality of Brexit â€“ without the unicorn fantasy *
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-reality-brexit-eu-referendum-unicorn-fantasy

Click to expand...

If anyone is peddling fantasy, it's the remainers. Day after day they come out with unsubstantiated waffle. It's not all about the economy, not that we should believe all the dire warnings from economists with vested interests. The events in Austria just proves what a massive issue uncontrolled migration is and the unrest will only spread throughout Europe if things carry on the same. The EU is destined to fail in any case, lets get out before we are dragged down with the rest.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 23, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Some more for the Leave campaigners to drill holes into...  an interesting article, but unfortunately for the Leavers, it is full of stats that no one likes to hear about. 

*Hereâ€™s the economic reality of Brexit â€“ without the unicorn fantasy *
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-reality-brexit-eu-referendum-unicorn-fantasy

Click to expand...

It's just the same old scare stories.  Not facts but exaggerated very worse case scenarios that egg on the side that we would make very poor decisions in just about everything we did after Brexit. The Guardian is about as unbiased as the Daily Mail in looking at a one sided case study and this one is from an academic from a Scottish University, I posted a video with an Economics Academic who says leaving the EU would be very good for the UK, he makes lots of stats that Remainers don't want to hear about.

Heres another : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKEUT1TiLU


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2016)

I love this thread as you can not look at it for weeks and when you come back the same points are being made by the same people.  And not one persons opinion has, or is indeed likely to change.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I love this thread as you can not look at it for weeks and when you come back the same points are being made by the same people.  And not one persons opinion has, or is indeed likely to change.

Click to expand...

I cant help it if people are so intransigent that they cant agree that 'Leave' is the best choice, even when I have explained it over and over again


----------



## MarkE (May 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I love this thread as you can not look at it for weeks and when you come back the same points are being made by the same people.  And not one persons opinion has, or is indeed likely to change.

Click to expand...

I know, great ain't it?  It's like sitting with your mates at the pub debating the issues of the day. You're never going to change anybody's opinion, even if, like the remainers, they are totally wrong.:cheers:


----------



## Foxholer (May 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





Hacker Khan said:



			I love this thread as you can not look at it for weeks and when you come back the same points are being made by the same people.  And not one persons opinion has, or is indeed likely to change.

Click to expand...

I cant help it if people are so intransigent that they cant agree that 'Leave' is the best choice, even when I have explained it over and over again 

Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether it's a 'Whoosh'! or a :thup:

But certainly a :rofl:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2016)

pauljames87 said:



			whilst I wouldnt like to see prices fall if they fall by 2k average thats like a fart in the wind really isnt it.. you would make double if not more than that back in the next year rise

Im personally pro stay but I think its a stupid argument to throw out the house prices
		
Click to expand...

I heard house prices could fall by 18%?  That's about 1/6th to Â£50,000 off a Â£300,000 house.

As it happens every estate agent I have spoken with in the last two months thinks house prices will fall if we leave.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard house prices could fall by 18%?  That's about 1/6th to Â£50,000 off a Â£300,000 house.

As it happens every estate agent I have spoken with in the last two months thinks house prices will fall if we leave.
		
Click to expand...

I've just changed my mind and will now be voting Leave instead of Remain. From a totally selfish stand point of someone looking to buy a house even if we as a household are 2 or 3k worse off each year for a few years the savings that I'll make on the house purchase will cover it easily. 

And if Leave could arrange a war between Iran and Saudi to boost oil prices and regenerate my industry then that would be very welcome too.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2016)

Love the response from Lidl after being asked about the referendum. 

"The German firm said it had 'closely monitored recent discussions' and was 'preparing various scenarios' to tackle the different outcomes of the EU referendum on June 23.
But the firm - which announced in November that it would plough Â£1.5 billion into opening and refurbishing stores over the next three years - said its 'ongoing operations' would not be impacted, regardless of the final referendum result.
A spokesman for Lidl said: 'We are not a political organisation and, as such, the decision must lie with the British public. However, we have closely monitored recent discussions around a potential departure of Great Britain from the European Union."

Basically saying we're planning for whatever the outcome is but we're not getting involved.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 23, 2016)

Whats happened to Corbyn has he passed away. I have not heard a jot from him re  Europe in ages.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure whether it's a 'Whoosh'! or a :thup:

But certainly a :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Not the slightest bit interested in your opinion oddball :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (May 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard house prices could fall by 18%?  That's about 1/6th to Â£50,000 off a Â£300,000 house.

As it happens every estate agent I have spoken with in the last two months thinks house prices will fall if we leave.
		
Click to expand...

And Estate Agents are renown to be an honest source of information.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Whats happened to Corbyn has he passed away. I have not heard a jot from him re  Europe in ages.
		
Click to expand...


No need for him to get involved...

The blue team is doing a great job without any assistance from the red team...

Of imploding that is...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Whats happened to Corbyn has he passed away. I have not heard a jot from him re  Europe in ages.
		
Click to expand...

He is standing at the back laughing his socks off at the implosion of the Tory party.
Carry on old boys.


----------



## Foxholer (May 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not the slightest bit interested in your opinion oddball :thup:
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't an 'opinion'! Merely an observation!

You do seem to be obsessed with 'having the last word' though!  Go on...Resist! 

And perhaps check this out
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/do-you-suffer-from-last-word-syndrome-carrie-guarrero


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And Estate Agents are renown to be an honest source of information.
		
Click to expand...

Just saying that they think houses prices will fall in the period of uncertainty following a Leave vote.  Don't think they have much to gain from prices falling so I can't see any reason for them to be telling me a porky.  They could just say that they don't know; or that proces prob wouldn't be affected.  But they are all saying they'll fall.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It wasn't an 'opinion'! Merely an observation!

You do seem to be obsessed with 'having the last word' though!  Go on...Resist! 

And perhaps check this out
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/do-you-suffer-from-last-word-syndrome-carrie-guarrero

Click to expand...

Good try.  Trolling Oddball alert :rofl:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2016)

Just one observation on a common 'dismissal' tactic used by Leave when commenting on the risk forecasts economists,  financial bodies, BoE etc are providing.  It's the 'well why should we listen to them now when they failed so badly in the past - and they never forecast the 2008 collapse'  Now this may be true (though they probably get a lot of stuff right that we don't hear about because they were right).  

But surely a very significant difference between, say, the 2008 crash and Brexit is that expressed by Her Maj 'Why did no one see it coming?'.  And that is the problem with economic forecasting.  You don't know what the event will be that precipitates a crash, recession or downturn; you don't know when it'll happen; and hence you don't know what the prevailing economic and geo-political environment will be when it happens.  All huge uncertainly.

However none of the above applies for Brexit - we *can* see it coming.  The economists and bankers know exactly the nature of the event; they know exactly when it will happen; they know pretty darned well exactly the prevailing economic and geo-political environment will be in four weeks time.  All of these factors remove the uncertainly that causes them problems in the past.  What they then can do is learn and extrapolate from what happened 'back then' on the back of something that they didn't predict - to the specific event and point in time of Brexit.

That's why in my view it is disingenuous and misleading for Leave to dismiss economic forecasts on the basis of past performance in the way they are doing.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just one observation on a common 'dismissal' tactic used by Leave when commenting on the risk forecasts economists,  financial bodies, BoE etc are providing.  It's the 'well why should we listen to them now when they failed so badly in the past - and they never forecast the 2008 collapse'  Now this may be true (though they probably get a lot of stuff right that we don't hear about because they were right).  

But surely a very significant difference between, say, the 2008 crash and Brexit is that expressed by Her Maj 'Why did no one see it coming?'.  And that is the problem with economic forecasting.  You don't know what the event will be that precipitates a crash, recession or downturn; you don't know when it'll happen; and hence you don't know what the prevailing economic and geo-political environment will be when it happens.  All huge uncertainly.

However none of the above applies for Brexit - we *can* see it coming.  The economists and bankers know exactly the nature of the event; they know exactly when it will happen; they know pretty darned well exactly the prevailing economic and geo-political environment will be in four weeks time.  All of these factors remove the uncertainly that causes them problems in the past.  What they then can do is learn and extrapolate from what happened 'back then' on the back of something that they didn't predict - to the specific event and point in time of Brexit.

That's why in my view it is disingenuous and misleading for Leave to dismiss economic forecasts on the basis of past performance in the way they are doing.
		
Click to expand...

It's not one sided though.  We keep hearing from Cameron and Osbourne the absolute worst case scenarios of Brexit every time they make a statement.  They never suggest the worst case of Remaining do they?

There are risks related to leaving but from what I read the mean effects are not that bad and some also suggest we could be better off.   The Remain camp are using some rather exaggerated claims, don't you agree?


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2016)

While I agree with some of your post SiLH, what you have conveniently ignored is that it was the same experts that predicted that leaving the Exchange Rate Mechanism was going to be disastrous for the country. They could see that coming and knew exactly the nature of the event. They knew the prevailing economic conditions and geo-political environment. All of those factors removed the uncertainty, as you put it, but they still got it hopelessly wrong.

It's a forecast or prediction and much like the weather forecast they aren't always going to be right. Just as the upbeat forecasts from Leave can't be relied on nor can those from remain. Personally I think that if Leave do win the reality will be somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I don't think it will be smooth sailing and a bed of roses but equally I don't think it will be as bad as Remain are predicting. 

Only 6 months ago David Cameron said that of course the UK could survive and flourish outside of the EU. Yet now he says a vote to leave Will lead to war in Europe, recession, job losses in the hundreds of thousands, a housing market crash and will cost each family thousands of pounds a year.


----------



## Foxholer (May 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Good try.  Trolling Oddball alert :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Ha! I knew you couldn't do it!! 

Try now! 



SocketRocket said:



			...We keep hearing from Cameron and Osbourne...
		
Click to expand...

If you are going to criticise the Chancellor (or even praise him), you should show a little more knowledge and spell his name correctly!


----------



## adam6177 (May 24, 2016)

has there been a poll on here of how people would vote?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just saying that they think houses prices will fall in the period of uncertainty following a Leave vote.  Don't think they have much to gain from prices falling so I can't see any reason for them to be telling me a porky.  They could just say that they don't know; or that proces prob wouldn't be affected.  But they are all saying they'll fall.
		
Click to expand...

Rather than questioning their honesty, i'm going to question their basis for this assumption. Not many estate agents I know are economic students, I would love to know why they are an expert now! For what it's worth I've heard grumblings about things that will happen post event, both Remain and Leave, but if you ask someone, they can't justify why.


----------



## MarkE (May 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Rather than questioning their honesty, i'm going to question their basis for this assumption. Not many estate agents I know are economic students, I would love to know why they are an expert now! For what it's worth I've heard grumblings about things that will happen post event, both Remain and Leave, but if you ask someone, they can't justify why.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. Nobody knows for sure, it's just predictions. Just that remainers seem hell bent on ramming their dire warnings down our throats daily.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Ha! I knew you couldn't do it!! 

Try now! 



If you are going to criticise the Chancellor (or even praise him), you should show a little more knowledge and spell his name correctly! 

Click to expand...

This has gone beyond childish behavior now.  I am asking you to stop it as I don't want to be dragged into any further conversations with you.  let it go please


----------



## Foxholer (May 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			This has gone beyond childish behavior now.  I am asking you to stop it as I don't want to be dragged into any further conversations with you.  let it go please
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:

And still your 'last word' obsession continues! :rofl:

It's in your hands (well fingers) to stop it! Just don't reply to this one! No reply is needed!


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2016)

Pack it in you two please
Asking nicely 
Thank you


----------



## vkurup (May 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Spot on. Nobody knows for sure, it's just predictions. Just that remainers seem hell bent on ramming their dire warnings down our throats daily.
		
Click to expand...

I agree... every report from the Remain campaign is fairly dire and i hope it does not make people go over to the other side instead.  Conversely the statements (rather than any report) from Leave seems to be made on emotion rather than on an evidence.  Currently there does not seem to be any evidence to say that we will be better off outside - atleast nothing that can be substantiated beyond what mop-head boris says on his soap box.


----------



## Foxholer (May 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I agree... every report from the Remain campaign is fairly dire and i hope it does not make people go over to the other side instead.  Conversely the statements (rather than any report) from Leave seems to be made on emotion rather than on an evidence.  Currently there does not seem to be any evidence to say that we will be better off outside - atleast nothing that can be substantiated beyond what mop-head boris says on his soap box.
		
Click to expand...

For these reasons, I'm becoming more and more impressed with Nicola Sturgeon!  Or maybe simply less impressed with the other advocates (both sides) - hardly something I thought possible!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			For these reasons, I'm becoming more and more impressed with Nicola Sturgeon!  Or maybe simply less impressed with the other advocates (both sides) - hardly something I thought possible! 

Click to expand...

I was thinking exactly that earlier today. Never previously would have had anything positive to say about her but I think she's been pretty good so far during this campaign.


----------



## vkurup (May 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			For these reasons, I'm becoming more and more impressed with Nicola Sturgeon!  Or maybe simply less impressed with the other advocates (both sides) - hardly something I thought possible! 

Click to expand...

I agree with you on that.. while i dont agree with some of her views, she is spot on with some of this.  The resident cynic would say that she has the benefit of experience behind her..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I agree with you on that.. while i dont agree with some of her views, she is spot on with some of this.  The resident cynic would say that she has the benefit of experience behind her.. 

Click to expand...

Though some of what she is saying is more about the language being used by _Remain _rather than the actual impact they are raising the risk of.  So for instance you might say that house prices could fall by nearly a fifth over a period of 2yrs - or you could say there could be a major crash in house prices.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			While I agree with some of your post SiLH, *what you have conveniently ignored is that it was the same experts that predicted that leaving the Exchange Rate Mechanism was going to be disastrous for the country. *They could see that coming and knew exactly the nature of the event. They knew the prevailing economic conditions and geo-political environment. All of those factors removed the uncertainty, as you put it, but they still got it hopelessly wrong.

It's a forecast or prediction and much like the weather forecast they aren't always going to be right. Just as the upbeat forecasts from Leave can't be relied on nor can those from remain. Personally I think that if Leave do win the reality will be somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I don't think it will be smooth sailing and a bed of roses but equally I don't think it will be as bad as Remain are predicting. 

Only 6 months ago David Cameron said that of course the UK could survive and flourish outside of the EU. Yet now he says a vote to leave Will lead to war in Europe, recession, job losses in the hundreds of thousands, a housing market crash and will cost each family thousands of pounds a year.
		
Click to expand...

*This* being true - but surely then the economists are now well placed to assess the outcome of known events such as leaving the Exchange Rate Mechanism and unknown events like the 2008 crash.  They will have examined what happened and what didn't happen when we left the ERM - and assessed why forecasts of gloom and doom never came to pass.  I would absolutely expect very good lessons to have been learnt from that known event, and used to inform their forecasts around this event.  

In any case - I find dismissing economists forecast on the grounds that they have got it wrong in the past - whilst ignoring when they got it right - just simple anti-intellectual.  As if to say that you might as well make decisions in complete ignorance of any facts, expertise and what has happened in the past.


----------



## Hobbit (May 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*This* being true - but surely then the economists are now well placed to assess the outcome of known events such as leaving the Exchange Rate Mechanism and unknown events like the 2008 crash.  They will have examined what happened and what didn't happen when we left the ERM - and assessed why forecasts of gloom and doom never came to pass.  I would absolutely expect very good lessons to have been learnt from that known event, and used to inform their forecasts around this event.  

In any case - I find dismissing economists forecast on the grounds that they have got it wrong in the past - whilst ignoring when they got it right - just simple anti-intellectual.  As if to say that you might as well make decisions in complete ignorance of any facts, expertise and what has happened in the past.
		
Click to expand...

i agree in principle but would ask the question why the economists originally said families would be Â£3,600 and then said Â£4,300 worse off. The Treasury can't even get annual growth forecasts right whilst in this wonderful stable EU. How on earth can they predict Leave when the exit negotiations haven't taken place? No one knows what the EU will charge for access to their markets, as they do with Norway and Switzerland.

None of the above takes into account the ability to target specific areas of the economy that EU rules currently forbid.

I still feel that neither side has put forward a decent economic prediction.


----------



## Foxholer (May 25, 2016)

Economists are in the fortunate position of being able to predict events without suffering any consequences if many (or even all!) of their prediction are wrong! I know of no other 'scientific' discipline where that can happen! And the reasons they get things wrong are that there are so many variables/possible scenarios involved with an economy that they can really only guess what the effects will be! Trying to put a figure on the cost of a Brexit to housing and personal wealth is pretty daft imo, but I guess that's seen as a way for the Remain-ers to be 'more specific'!

I believe there would certainly be some sort of 'shock' immediate negative effect ('catastrophic' events generally have a negative impact on an overall economy, even if some areas benefit!) followed by a mild recovery, but that the true cost would not be felt (for example by farmers and employment) for some time - even perhaps longer than the 2 years transition/negotiation period of Clause 50!

I don't believe the statements about likely significant drop in house prices. That seems like scare-mongering to me! 

Sytill, it was interesting to watch Jacob Rees-Mogg attempt (and fail quite badly) to make (political) capital out of the BofE's (independent) negative view of the effect of a Brexit! He made himself look quite pompous and silly, though anyone who names his children as inanely as he does has to be a candidate for that description anyway!!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2016)

Sky News reporting on the referendum have just said that every 4 weeks the EU move from Brussels to Strasbourg for 4 days and then go back to Brussels. This costs Â£150 million pounds per year. Does anyone know why they do this? Seems like an awful waste of money.


----------



## vkurup (May 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sky News reporting on the referendum have just said that every 4 weeks the EU move from Brussels to Strasbourg for 4 days and then go back to Brussels. This costs Â£150 million pounds per year. Does anyone know why they do this? Seems like an awful waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

Acc to their website..

17. Why does Parliament move between Brussels and Strasbourg?

The EU's national governments unanimously decided in 1992 to fix permanently the seat of the EU institutions. The official seat and venue for most of the plenary sessions is Strasbourg, Parliamentary Committees and Political Group meetings are held in Brussels and administrative staff are based in Luxembourg. Any change to this current system would need to be part of a new treaty and unanimously agreed by all Member States.  


<edit> Plus things can be a bit bonkers.  I think this is a valid reason to leave the EU..


----------



## Foxholer (May 25, 2016)

vkurup said:





ColchesterFC said:



			Sky News reporting on the referendum have just said that every 4 weeks the EU move from Brussels to Strasbourg for 4 days and then go back to Brussels. This costs Â£150 million pounds per year. Does anyone know why they do this? Seems like an awful waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

Acc to their website..

17. Why does Parliament move between Brussels and Strasbourg?

The EU's national governments unanimously decided in 1992 to fix permanently the seat of the EU institutions. The official seat and venue for most of the plenary sessions is Strasbourg, Parliamentary Committees and Political Group meetings are held in Brussels and administrative staff are based in Luxembourg. Any change to this current system would need to be part of a new treaty and unanimously agreed by all Member States.  


<edit> Plus things can be a bit bonkers.  I think this is a valid reason to leave the EU..
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it was (and still is) at the French government's insistence that this happens!

So Nationalism wins over common-sense! Personally, I believe France should simply be charged for the considerable cost of the farce - which does produce considerable benefits for the Strasbourg region!


----------



## MarkE (May 25, 2016)

Today's warning comes from the IFS, a non-neutral organisation, being part funded by the EU. http://news.sky.com/story/1701665/brexit-would-cost-uk-40bn-warns-report

Surely even the most staunch Remain supporter is getting hacked off with the constant barrage of doom from the government and it's allies.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 25, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Today's warning comes from the IFS, a non-neutral organisation, being part funded by the EU. http://news.sky.com/story/1701665/brexit-would-cost-uk-40bn-warns-report

Surely even the most staunch Remain supporter is getting hacked off with the constant barrage of doom from the government and it's allies.
		
Click to expand...

No really, just finding it all very tedious now. Remain makes statement about potential consequence of brexit, leave cries "scaremongering" without actually refuting the substance.... And repeat ad infinitum. Let's just have the vote and be done with it.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2016)

As I understand it the biggest problem with the IFS report is that they haven't actually done their own studies into the outcome. They have used the previous studies, including the treasury report which has been questioned as to its accuracy, to come up with these results. If any of the data they used was incorrect then it will have skewed the results. I wish they had done their own complete study rather than rely on others results so that Leave would have had to use evidence to refute the results rather than just use "scaremongering" as a response.


----------



## vkurup (May 25, 2016)

Today,, the BBC put the Â£350m into perspective.  
https://www.facebook.com/bbcbreakfast/videos/1335349079812560/ 

can we pl start accusing the beebs of being baised...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Today's warning comes from the IFS, a non-neutral organisation, being part funded by the EU. http://news.sky.com/story/1701665/brexit-would-cost-uk-40bn-warns-report

Surely even the most staunch Remain supporter is getting hacked off with the constant barrage of doom from the government and it's allies.
		
Click to expand...

5yrs ago you changed from playing a budget 'distance' golf ball to playing a Pro V1; you work really hard on lessons with your pro and developed your game around use of the Pro V1 and got your handicap down to single figures.  But then you decide to stop playing ProV1s and go back to budget balls - say because you are told that they can go further; they are cheaper and you get more of them for your bucks; or that ProV1s are a rip-off and don't cost that much more to manufacture than yer budget ball.  

What is your Pro going to say? What are your mates going to say? 

They are going to say stuff like: don't be stupid; why do this if you don't have to? Your game is pretty darned good why change? You'll lose distance, spin, control and your handicap will soar. You'll lose your place in the club teams. You'll not challenge in the main club comps etc.  All pretty negative stuff yes?

You'll say - look - I'm single figures - I've got a good handicap and a solid game.  Sure - I'll go through a transitional difficult period - but once I get used to my new ball I think I'll be just as good and successful golfer as I was with the ProV1 and that bit extra distance might actually make me a better player.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2016)

I assume in your analogy that sticking with Pro V's is voting to Remain and the budget balls are voting to Leave.

What about if he replied with I've got some issues at home that I need to sort out and can't justify spending the money on Pro V's. I need to spend that money on things that really matter to me rather than giving it to Titleist for their golf balls.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Today,, the BBC put the Â£350m into perspective.  
https://www.facebook.com/bbcbreakfast/videos/1335349079812560/ 

can we pl start accusing the beebs of being baised...
		
Click to expand...

Every media organisation, person, think tank or politician will always be biased if you do not agree with what they are saying. It's the law.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume in your analogy that sticking with Pro V's is voting to Remain and the budget balls are voting to Leave.

What about if he replied with I've got some issues at home that I need to sort out and can't justify spending the money on Pro V's. I need to spend that money on things that really matter to me rather than giving it to Titleist for their golf balls.
		
Click to expand...

You may well say that - but at the same time you say that it isn't going to affect your game - in fact you think that it will improve it and you won't need to go back to a premium ball.  The point is - unless you really have to go to a budget ball - nobody does because they know the risks; they will only go back there as a very last resort.  

But if your friends do not see any good reason for you doing it - and think that you are deluded about your golf in the future - they will say - well - we can a see what you are saying - we do not think you are right - and they will point out all the risks.  But if you feel you cannot afford the better ball and think you can play just as well with the budget ball - then go ahead - but don't say you weren't warned.


----------



## Hobbit (May 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You may well say that - but at the same time you say that it isn't going to affect your game - in fact you think that it will improve it and you won't need to go back to a premium ball.  The point is - unless you really have to go to a budget ball - nobody does because they know the risks; they will only go back there as a very last resort.  

But if your friends do not see any good reason for you doing it - and think that you are deluded about your golf in the future - they will say - well - we can a see what you are saying - we do not think you are right - and they will point out all the risks.  But if you feel you cannot afford the better ball and think you can play just as well with the budget ball - then go ahead - but don't say you weren't warned.
		
Click to expand...

Or by playing the game/shot differently you can still shoot the same score... I know coz I did it in a comp. I pulled out and old Dunlop Warwick, and thought what the hell. I was gobsmacked to find that by playing differently I could still get the same result - I won BTW. 

So if it is an opt out, and we budget differently, why can't we still win?

I agree that if we try and do the same things the same way but with a different set of parameters we will get a different result. But I thought the whole idea of an opt out is to change some things...


----------



## MarkE (May 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You may well say that - but at the same time you say that it isn't going to affect your game - in fact you think that it will improve it and you won't need to go back to a premium ball.  The point is - unless you really have to go to a budget ball - nobody does because they know the risks; they will only go back there as a very last resort.  

But if your friends do not see any good reason for you doing it - and think that you are deluded about your golf in the future - they will say - well - we can a see what you are saying - we do not think you are right - and they will point out all the risks.  But if you feel you cannot afford the better ball and think you can play just as well with the budget ball - then go ahead - but don't say you weren't warned.
		
Click to expand...

All well and good if you can actually afford to keep throwing good money after bad. Which the UK certainly cannot.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			5yrs ago you changed from playing a budget 'distance' golf ball to playing a Pro V1; you work really hard on lessons with your pro and developed your game around use of the Pro V1 and got your handicap down to single figures.  But then you decide to stop playing ProV1s and go back to budget balls - say because you are told that they can go further; they are cheaper and you get more of them for your bucks; or that ProV1s are a rip-off and don't cost that much more to manufacture than yer budget ball.  

What is your Pro going to say? What are your mates going to say? 

They are going to say stuff like: don't be stupid; why do this if you don't have to? Your game is pretty darned good why change? You'll lose distance, spin, control and your handicap will soar. You'll lose your place in the club teams. You'll not challenge in the main club comps etc.  All pretty negative stuff yes?

You'll say - look - I'm single figures - I've got a good handicap and a solid game.  Sure - I'll go through a transitional difficult period - but once I get used to my new ball I think I'll be just as good and successful golfer as I was with the ProV1 and that bit extra distance might actually make me a better player.
		
Click to expand...

But the EU is not a real Pro V1 organisation.  It's a Pinnacle that has been stamped with a Pro V1 logo, everyone knows it'a not a Pro V1 and it doesn't perform like a Pro V 1 but the Head Pro keeps telling us it is and he also suggests that he has also put them in a different box that makes them perform even better than pro v1's.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I agree... every report from the Remain campaign is fairly dire and i hope it does not make people go over to the other side instead.  Conversely the statements (rather than any report) from Leave seems to be made on emotion rather than on an evidence.  Currently there does not seem to be any evidence to say that we will be better off outside - atleast nothing that can be substantiated beyond what mop-head boris says on his soap box.
		
Click to expand...

OK, here are a few videos that make a very reasoned case for Brexit:  Please try to take a little time to watch them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jpphRld42U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOi24TsK2c8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1P277pqQWU


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But if your friends do not see any good reason for you doing it - and think that you are deluded about your golf in the future - they will say - well - we can a see what you are saying - we do not think you are right - and they will point out all the risks.  But if you feel you cannot afford the better ball and think you can play just as well with the budget ball - then go ahead - but don't say you weren't warned.
		
Click to expand...

Scaremongering!!!!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2016)

Have seen the photo below shared on Facebook and Twitter today. I can't believe that someone within the Conservatives In campaign thought that they would get away with this and that these photos were a good idea..........




It seems as though with the Leave campaign failing to register any real damage on the Remain campaign they have decided to give them a chance by scoring an own goal or two.

And just in case you're wondering what the problem is there are 12 people in the top picture claiming to be from Kent Conservatives In who also appear in the second picture claiming to be from Sussex Conservatives In.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have seen the photo below shared on Facebook and Twitter today. I can't believe that someone within the Conservatives In campaign thought that they would get away with this and that these photos were a good idea..........

View attachment 19533


It seems as though with the Leave campaign failing to register any real damage on the Remain campaign they have decided to give them a chance by scoring an own goal or two.

And just in case you're wondering what the problem is there are 12 people in the top picture claiming to be from Kent Conservatives In who also appear in the second picture claiming to be from Sussex Conservatives In.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron and Osborne are finished whatever way the vote goes.  If we leave they have damaged themselves too much to have any credibility and if we stay they will be on the line every time the EU benefits are found to be false.


----------



## MarkE (May 25, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have seen the photo below shared on Facebook and Twitter today. I can't believe that someone within the Conservatives In campaign thought that they would get away with this and that these photos were a good idea..........

View attachment 19533


It seems as though with the Leave campaign failing to register any real damage on the Remain campaign they have decided to give them a chance by scoring an own goal or two.

And just in case you're wondering what the problem is there are 12 people in the top picture claiming to be from Kent Conservatives In who also appear in the second picture claiming to be from Sussex Conservatives In.
		
Click to expand...

:lol: Can they sink any lower? Hilarious.:rofl:  I see they are still misappropriating budgets, bussing supporters around the country, after doing the same in the general election.


----------



## Hobbit (May 25, 2016)

MarkE said:



			:lol: Can they sink any lower? Hilarious.:rofl:  I see they are still misappropriating budgets, bussing supporters around the country, after doing the same in the general election.
		
Click to expand...

Makes you wonder what they fear? If they can't win fairly I'm tempted to ask why?


----------



## MarkE (May 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, here are a few videos that make a very reasoned case for Brexit:  Please try to take a little time to watch them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jpphRld42U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOi24TsK2c8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1P277pqQWU

Click to expand...

These videos should be essential viewing for everyone, especially those undecided voters.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (May 25, 2016)

MarkE said:



			These videos should be essential viewing for everyone, especially those undecided voters.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely wouldn't sway them one way or another would they.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Definitely wouldn't sway them one way or another would they.
		
Click to expand...

Why not?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Scaremongering!!!! 

Click to expand...

Maybe it is - or maybe they are just being honest and realistic.
.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Why not?
		
Click to expand...

Because like every piece of evidence presented on both sides, it is either a balanced summary reinforcing your existing views or some misleading propaganda glossing over several key issues.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because like every piece of evidence presented on both sides, it is either a balanced summary reinforcing your existing views or some misleading propaganda glossing over several key issues.
		
Click to expand...

But as for the MMR controversy and autism - if like Dr Andrew Wakefield you make a case that many want to hear as it provides an answer to a burning issue or question, then regardless of what the vast majority of experts say and present that counters your argument, your argument can prevail with the many who want that answer you provide.  And it can take a long time for your argument to be shown up as being as false or baseless as it is.  And so here we are with the EU debate, and with a lot of folks (on both sides of the debate) probably not actually listening very carefully.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But as for the MMR controversy and autism - if like Dr Andrew Wakefield you make a case that many want to hear as it provides an answer to a burning issue or question, then regardless of what the vast majority of experts say and present that counters your argument, your argument can prevail with the many who want that answer you provide.  And it can take a long time for your argument to be shown up as being as false or baseless as it is.  And so here we are with the EU debate, and with a lot of folks (on both sides of the debate) probably not actually listening very carefully.
		
Click to expand...

You have suggested a number of times that Brexit is not making a reasoned case to Leave.   I posted those three videos as IMO they do just that.   You may of course not agree with the case they make but it is made very clearly and in a reasonable amount of detail rather than brutal bullet points.    Maybe you could look at them and explain whether they do meet your criteria for setting out a clear case for leave.


----------



## MarkE (May 26, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because like every piece of evidence presented on both sides, it is either a balanced summary reinforcing your existing views or some misleading propaganda glossing over several key issues.
		
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree the remain side has well and truly won the propaganda battle. Little substance of course, but with propaganda they've excelled.


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2016)

So the head of the WTO has said that leaving the EU would cost Britain "an extra Â£9 billion in trading costs alone" and the UK would have to renegotiate deals with 161 countries. I wonder if Leave think that this is just more scaremongering. I don't see how Remain can suggest that the head of the WTO can possibly be biased in favour of the UK remaining in the EU.


----------



## Foxholer (May 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So the head of the WTO has said that leaving the EU would cost Britain "an extra Â£9 billion in trading costs alone" and the UK would have to renegotiate deals with 161 countries. I wonder if Leave think that this is just more scaremongering. I don't see how Remain can suggest that the head of the WTO can possibly be biased in favour of the UK remaining in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone, on the either side, can possibly dispute these figures - which are 'per year' ones btw. These guys are acting independently - simply stating what the costs involved are!

Everything else is a trade-off of the 'costs and benefits' involved and, as demonstrated already, there's plenty of potential for 'propaganda and scaremongering' for either side - including within today's Guardian article (that I presume prompted the comment) itself!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2016)

So basically the Â£8 billion (ish) that is our nett contribution to the EU each year will be swallowed up by trading fees and won't be spent on "our priorities such as the NHS" then.

EDIT - does anyone know why it will cost Â£9 billion a year to trade. I always assumed that you signed up to a free trade agreement and it didn't cost either side anything. Or if one side imposed tariffs on trade then the other side reciprocated and the costs balanced each other out.


----------



## Foxholer (May 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So basically the Â£8 billion (ish) that is our nett contribution to the EU each year will be swallowed up by trading fees and won't be spent on "our priorities such as the NHS" then.

EDIT - does anyone know why it will cost Â£9 billion a year to trade. I always assumed that you signed up to a free trade agreement and it didn't cost either side anything. Or if one side imposed tariffs on trade then the other side reciprocated and the costs balanced each other out.
		
Click to expand...

This 'cost of trade' - which, according to the Guardian article is an *additional* 5.5 billion (I haven't worked out how or whether those figures are really different) - is, simply put, the 'cost of the paperwork and hassle' overhead! It's the entire reason that FTAs are negotiated!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			This 'cost of trade' - which, according to the Guardian article is an *additional* 5.5 billion (I haven't worked out how or whether those figures are really different) - is, simply put, the 'cost of the paperwork and hassle' overhead! It's the entire reason that FTAs are negotiated!
		
Click to expand...

So if we negotiated FTA's then we wouldn't have to pay the Â£9 billion? 

I'm not suggesting that we could/would be able to negotiate them but just wondering.


----------



## Foxholer (May 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So if we negotiated FTA's then we wouldn't have to pay the Â£9 billion? 

I'm not suggesting that we could/would be able to negotiate them but just wondering.
		
Click to expand...

It's Â£9 Bn for imports and Â£5.5 Bn for exports. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz49nqmKeDz

And Yes, negotiating FTAs with 162 countries (or staying within the EU) and that wouldn't be required!


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's Â£9 Bn for imports and Â£5.5 Bn for exports. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz49nqmKeDz

And Yes, negotiating FTAs with 162 countries (or staying within the EU) and that wouldn't be required!
		
Click to expand...

Any links that don't require a subscription as would be interested to read that but I'm too tight to pay to read it. 

Must be my grandmother's Scottish blood coursing through me. (<--- joke )


----------



## SocketRocket (May 26, 2016)

The negotiations for the UK to leave the EU will take around two years, during that period nothing will change.   The statement from the WTO is based on the proposition that we will not make a trade agreement with the EU and I doubt very much that will be the case as it will be mutually beneficial to reach an agreement.    

I keep hearing arguments that remaining will be good for workers rights.  Just take a look around Europe and see how well that is going, especially in France at the moment.   The cornerstone of this debate for me is that in the UK we have the ability to remove the Government of the day every five years if we are not comfortable with their performance, with the EU we have absolutely no control over this.  Some would argue we can vote in our EU MP's but it's futile as they will always be a minority group who do not decide policy but only vote in  minority on it.


----------



## Hobbit (May 27, 2016)

I would recommend reading the https://fullfact.org/

Without a doubt the most unbiased bit of information I've read to date.


----------



## Foxholer (May 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I would recommend reading the https://fullfact.org/

Without a doubt the most unbiased bit of information I've read to date.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:

Nice 'reality check' for each argument.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I would recommend reading the https://fullfact.org/

Without a doubt the most unbiased bit of information I've read to date.
		
Click to expand...

That's a good site for balanced info.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I would recommend reading the https://fullfact.org/

Without a doubt the most unbiased bit of information I've read to date.
		
Click to expand...

Which probably proves everything you read is not 100% true.


----------



## Foxholer (May 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Which probably proves everything you read is not 100% true.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: Obviously an impossibility!

A variation on the old  'This statement is False' dilemna!

Bet you like Maurice Escher pictures too!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2016)

All five Scottish Holyrood Parties support a remain vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			All five Scottish Holyrood Parties support a remain vote.
		
Click to expand...

And


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The statement from the WTO is based on the proposition that we will not make a trade agreement with the EU and I doubt very much that will be the case as it will be mutually beneficial to reach an agreement.
		
Click to expand...

This is a common assertion from you on this thread and, while I see the logic, it's just a baseless opinion. The counter baseless opinion is that it's not in the EU's interest to give a departing member as good a trade deal as they get through membership so while there may or may not be some kind of deal we'll still be worse off.

Both valid opinions and both pure speculation.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is a common assertion from you on this thread and, while I see the logic, it's just a baseless opinion. The counter baseless opinion is that it's not in the EU's interest to give a departing member as good a trade deal as they get through membership so while there may or may not be some kind of deal we'll still be worse off.

Both valid opinions and both pure speculation.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's an opinion Caren, how could it be anything else.   I dont think it's a baseless one though and I put that point as I see it being in all parties best interest to make a trade agreement, even in a worse case scenario  if we made no agreement then we could just declare ourselves a free trade zone and allow the EU to buy from us tariff free, if they wanted to apply restrictions to us purchasing their products then it would be damaging to them if we purchased less.  An opinion but not baseless.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2016)

A good article on the guardian website today...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-fear-brexit-contagion

Which features this comment on socketrocket's favourite hypothesis...




			The Outers commonly respond that EU leaders would ultimately swallow their anger and cut a special sweetheart deal for Brexiting Britain because it would be in their self-interest to continue trading with one of the worldâ€™s largest economies. However jilted the Germans felt, theyâ€™d still want to sell us their cars. However infuriated the French might be, theyâ€™d still want us to buy their cheese. This is a regular trope of Nigel Farage. Obviously, thereâ€™s some truth in it. But it is eclipsed by a much larger truth about our economic relations with the EU. Britain would have a lot more to lose from the absence of a deal, and the party with the more to lose typically comes out worse from a negotiation. Around half of British exports go to buyers in the EU. Only about 10% of exports from the rest of the EU come to Britain. That would leave us with a pretty feeble hand in a Brexit negotiation. Only two countries, Germany and the Netherlands, regularly have substantial trade surpluses with the UK. So they are the only two with much incentive to do a deal. Any one of the 27, including those countries that run trade deficits with Britain, would have a veto. That is why all the detailed analysis of what Brexit would entail comes to the conclusion that divorce negotiations would be extremely difficult, very protracted, terrifically tortuous and not positive for the British economy.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SocketRocket (May 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			A good article on the guardian website today...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-fear-brexit-contagion

Which features this comment on socketrocket's favourite hypothesis...
		
Click to expand...

Andrew Rawnsley has an opinion to which he is entitled but it's not sacrosanct.  Mines different as I have explained a number of times and I also have an entitlement to it.  

Merkel needs to be very wary of intervention as one thing the British don't like is to be threatened or for a German Leader to tell us how we should live our lives.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Andrew Rawnsley has an opinion to which he is entitled but it's not sacrosanct.  Mines different as I have explained a number of times and I also have an entitlement to it.  

Merkel needs to be very wary of intervention as one thing the British don't like is to be threatened or for a German Leader to tell us how we should live our lives.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed you are and I would never argue otherwise but neither is your opinion "sacrosant".


----------



## Hobbit (May 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			A good article on the guardian website today...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-fear-brexit-contagion

Which features this comment on socketrocket's favourite hypothesis...
		
Click to expand...

Andrew Sparrow's article in the same paper relates what the cross party committee have said to both sides, i.e. That both have made ludicrous claims and counter-claims. For example, the Treasury report that households would be Â£4300 a year worse off is a million miles from the truth, as is the claim that the UK would save Â£350 million a week by exiting.

There's a small element of truth in both but the actual figures are way smaller...and the same is said of many of the claims. All have a basis in fact but have been spun way out of control.

The cross party committee have said both sides have done the UK and politics a huge disservice.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The cross party committee have said both sides have done the UK and politics a huge disservice.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. The "debate" has been dreadful.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed you are and I would never argue otherwise but neither is your opinion "sacrosant".
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's not.


----------



## jp5 (May 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			There's a small element of truth in both but the actual figures are way smaller...and the same is said of many of the claims. All have a basis in fact but have been spun way out of control.
		
Click to expand...

How can there be any truth in the Â£4300 a figure? It's a "forecast"!

(Not that the sending Â£350m is true either!)


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I agree with this. The "debate" has been dreadful.
		
Click to expand...

Why do I not find it surprising that the two faces of the Tory Party are trying to outdo each other by telling downright lies and falsehoods.

I wonder if any of the current bunch of Tory 'leaders' will come out of this with any credibility and the Tories will have to look outside of cabinet for a new leader.
Don't forget that whatever the outcome of this EU vote there is still another four years of UK government from this shoddy shambles.


----------



## Hobbit (May 29, 2016)

jp5 said:



			How can there be any truth in the Â£4300 a figure? It's a "forecast"!
!)
		
Click to expand...

Actually, it's not a true forecast in the sense of what a family would lose. It's the twisting of what a drop in GDP might be in relation to every family in the UK. 

A bit like saying EDF energy lost Â£240 million last year. That's Â£40 a person. There's no actual relation to each individual in the Uk and EDF's loss...


----------



## SocketRocket (May 29, 2016)

What I have found distasteful in this lead up to the EU referendum is the stance taken by the Government.   The fact they decided we needed a referendum means they must have believed our future in the EU was questionable and the Electorate should have a choice on Remaining or Leaving.  They then make such a one sided case for Remaining that suggests things like anyone wanting to leave are economically illiterate, war mongers and devoid of any common sense. I still think that the people we have voted to lead us should be much better, instead of using the Civil Service machine to spin everything such that it fits their personal preferences they should have made a well balanced case, showing the realistic risks and benefits for both side of the argument and there are potential risks and benefits on both sides.   As a Tory I have now lost all confidence in the likes of Cameron, Osborne and May, I think they are finished now whichever way the Referendum goes.


----------



## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2016)

We're not having a referendum because the government thinks it's important for the country to have one. It was important to the Tory party, and nobody else, to put on their manifesto to stop their bickering over the issue during the general election. Stupid, though, as it only delayed the inevitable. Looks like none of them will emerge with any credit. Good!


----------



## Foxholer (May 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...The fact they decided we needed a referendum means they must have believed our future in the EU was questionable and the Electorate should have a choice on Remaining or Leaving....
		
Click to expand...

I'm certain that's not what 'they' thought. I believe they (the Conservatives) thought that the EU issue was endangering their likelihood to continue to govern/win elections, so a referendum was necessary/the best way to silence the opposition, both within and outside their party - specifically with the increased popularity of UKIP!

The rest of their tactics simply demonstrate the way governments (of all styles) work!

FWIW, Cameron has actually gone up in my opinion, as I have seen more of his overall work and been quite impressed. Never been a great fan of Osborne, who is prone to Budget gaffs. May seems too much like a poor/bad copy of Thatcher, with no sense of what she can/can't actually legislate for!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2016)

Desicion time 




Such a shame that both sides have been too busy with their childish behaviour towards each other that not enough facts have been given to voters to allow people to make an informed choice


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Desicion time 

View attachment 19597


Such a shame that both sides have been too busy with their childish behaviour towards each other that not enough facts have been given to voters to allow people to make an informed choice
		
Click to expand...


I cast my vote at this stage in the Scottish Referendum only for Brown, Cameron and Clegg to completely change the goalposts.
Might be worth hanging on to the last postal day to see 'whats occuring'


----------



## Hobbit (May 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're not having a referendum because the government thinks it's important for the country to have one. It was important to the Tory party, and nobody else, to put on their manifesto to stop their bickering over the issue during the general election. Stupid, though, as it only delayed the inevitable. Looks like none of them will emerge with any credit. Good!
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post! Couldn't have put it any better.



Foxholer said:



			I'm certain that's not what 'they' thought. I believe they (the Conservatives) thought that the EU issue was endangering their likelihood to continue to govern/win elections, so a referendum was necessary/the best way to silence the opposition, both within and outside their party - specifically with the increased popularity of UKIP!

The rest of their tactics simply demonstrate the way governments (of all styles) work!

FWIW, Cameron has actually gone up in my opinion, as I have seen more of his overall work and been quite impressed. Never been a great fan of Osborne, who is prone to Budget gaffs. May seems too much like a poor/bad copy of Thatcher, with no sense of what she can/can't actually legislate for!
		
Click to expand...

I thought Cameron's WW3 threat was/is disgraceful, and he's taken a huge drop in my estimation. Osborne's budget gaffs show a level of ineptitude I wouldn't expect from a Chancellor. May is a mouth piece for the party, and has been quite disappointing through the whole debate.

As Doon says, expect some huge announcements in the final days. Its been an appalling debate...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2016)

I think we are all coming to agreement that both sides are absolutely rubbish.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 30, 2016)

An Alternative Ballot Paper


----------



## Foxholer (May 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			...
I thought Cameron's WW3 threat was/is disgraceful, and he's taken a huge drop in my estimation....
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Forgot to mention that it was even in spite of making the same sort of ridiculous claims that was normal for a politician!

On the other side, Gove has always been weasely and Boris (who claims soul-searching, but probably only insofar as he analysed which of the 2 announcement strategies would provide more political clout) has been and always will be simply a buffoon! My opinion of them has not changed!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Excellent post! Couldn't have put it any better.



I thought Cameron's WW3 threat was/is disgraceful, and he's taken a huge drop in my estimation. Osborne's budget gaffs show a level of ineptitude I wouldn't expect from a Chancellor. May is a mouth piece for the party, and has been quite disappointing through the whole debate.
*
As Doon says, expect some huge announcements in the final days. Its been an appalling debate*...
		
Click to expand...

I read that Merkel will make an intervention towards the end.   I can only surmise she will tell us what a great deal Cameron negotiated for us and how the end of the World will be nigh if we Leave.  Pity they didn't take us seriously when we were asking for some reasonable changes.   I find it difficult that anyone cannot see how the current Free Movement of People through the EU is any longer a sensible policy.   When the member states had similar strength economies then you could see some value for it but with member states that have basket case economies it has become a one way train that is unfair and stupid.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2016)

Massive boost to the NI, Welsh and Scots remain voters from Toby Young [whoever he is]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/


----------



## SocketRocket (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Massive boost to the NI, Welsh and Scots remain voters from Toby Young [whoever he is]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

Click to expand...

A picture of people being proud to be English, whats wrong with that.  I guess it would be OK if it was people showing the Scottish Psalter .


----------



## vkurup (May 31, 2016)

just got back to this thread after 4 days.. nothing has changed...  except now on Page #55


----------



## MegaSteve (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Massive boost to the NI, Welsh and Scots remain voters from Toby Young [whoever he is]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

Click to expand...


I must of opened the wrong link as I got a story about ferries...

As usual, read the comments and no surprise to see the cretins in London got the blame somehow ...


----------



## MegaSteve (May 31, 2016)

vkurup said:



			just got back to this thread after 4 days.. nothing has changed...  except now on Page #55
		
Click to expand...


Ah, we are all waiting on Ms Merkel's last ditch plea/offer to stay...


Mind you hearing the stitch up merchant Vince Cable telling us we'd be economically foolish to leave is enough for me to continue with voting for Brexit...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A picture of people being proud to be English, whats wrong with that.  I guess it would be OK if it was people showing the Scottish Psalter .
		
Click to expand...

No...... I think most Scots would be aware that this referendum is a UK issue and would have been bright enough to show a union flag to accompany the words written.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No...... I think most Scots would be aware that this referendum is a UK issue and would have been bright enough to show a union flag to accompany the words written.
		
Click to expand...

You keep telling us it's all about whether the vote will be fair to Scotland and whats best for the Scottish.  Well some of us like to consider whats best for the English so your principles must consider that fair dues.

Oh! and that picture was taken during the 2014 World Cup :rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You keep telling us it's all about whether the vote will be fair to Scotland and whats best for the Scottish.  Well some of us like to consider whats best for the English so your principles must consider that fair dues.

Oh! and that picture was taken during the 2014 World Cup :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

England seem to be heading down the path of Independence from the UK. Seems strange after all that better togetherness of 2014.
I have no problem with that provided that they divi up the UK's wealth equally.

As I can read I was aware of the date on the photo, makes Mr Toby Young seem like a prize plonker, I blame the schools.


----------



## Hobbit (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England seem to be heading down the path of Independence from the UK. Seems strange after all that better togetherness of 2014.
I have no problem with that provided that they divi up the UK's wealth equally.

As I can read I was aware of the date on the photo, makes Mr Toby Young seem like a prize plonker, I blame the schools.
		
Click to expand...

And the debt.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And the debt.
		
Click to expand...

Naturally, 10% of the Bank of England will soon sort our share of that out.


----------



## Hobbit (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naturally, 10% of the Bank of England will soon sort our share of that out.

Click to expand...

If your share of the UK's wealth is 10%, is the rest of the UK's share of Scotland's wealth 90% of what's in Scotland?


----------



## bluewolf (May 31, 2016)

Why are you letting the troll turn it into yet another thread about Scotland? It's been mainly interesting reading up to now...


----------



## SocketRocket (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



*England seem to be heading down the path of Independence from the UK*. Seems strange after all that better togetherness of 2014.
I have no problem with that provided that they divi up the UK's wealth equally.

As I can read I was aware of the date on the photo, makes Mr Toby Young seem like a prize plonker, I blame the schools.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a silly statement and born of prejudice.


----------



## Foxholer (May 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
As I can read I was aware of the date on the photo, makes Mr Toby Young seem like a prize plonker, ....
		
Click to expand...

I think you have rather missed the point of the pic! 

And Yes, TY has forgotten about the other parts of GB!

As long as ultimate control is Westminster, 'England' is happy!


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 1, 2016)

The geniuses of the Mail's comments section pass judgement on Stephen Hawking...:rofl:


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a silly statement and born of prejudice.
		
Click to expand...

No change there then.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 19664


The geniuses of the Mail's comments section pass judgement on Stephen Hawking...:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

The comment is stupid.   I would add that although someone is a Theoretical Physicist, Cosmologist, it does not make them an expert in Politics, Business and Economics.   My experiences of such academics is that they are best at what they are qualified for.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 2, 2016)

For those banging on about immigration and the introduction of Aussie point system (which I assume everyone knows is *already in place for non-EU migrants*), it is interesting to see the Dutch PM say that they could introduce the same for UK citizens wanting to migrating to Holland.  

If Spain follows suit, imagine, the Brits having to prove that you are an independent, skilled worker before you can buy their retirement pad in the Costas... that would hurt or would it??


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2016)

Does the fact that the Germans, French, Dutch etc are so desperate for us to remain in not tell you something?

Just proves to me that we are a gravy train helping to subsidise the EU squanderfest.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 2, 2016)

Haven't really heard much from the continent except Marine Le Pen advocating Brexit.

What have the Germans, French and Dutch said?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 2, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Does the fact that the Germans, French, Dutch etc are so desperate for us to remain in not tell you something?

Just proves to me that we are a gravy train helping to subsidise the EU squanderfest.
		
Click to expand...

Or they know that as part of the EU, we're all greater than the sum of our parts!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Haven't really heard much from the continent except Marine Le Pen advocating Brexit.

What have the Germans, French and Dutch said?
		
Click to expand...

The Dutch PM and Merkel have been quite vocal about us staying in.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 2, 2016)

What has Merkel said?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Or they know that as part of the EU, we're all greater than the sum of our parts!
		
Click to expand...

If the EU lost our net contribution there would be problems raising enough money to make the substantial subsidies to countries like Poland.    I fail to see how being part of such an undemocratic institution can make the parts greater, complete freedom to determine your destiny is what makes you greater.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If the EU lost our net contribution there would be problems raising enough money to make the substantial subsidies to countries like Poland.    I fail to see how being part of such an undemocratic institution can make the parts greater, complete freedom to determine your destiny is what makes you greater.
		
Click to expand...

Who do you think gets better agreements with suppliers. Tesco, or your local corner shop? Being part of a bigger entity has inherent benefits that doesn't exist in smaller replicas.

You have no freedom to determine your destiny. Nor do i. Nor does anyone outside of the 1% in Britain. And the ability to changes governments every 5 years does not change this in the slightest, other than in appearance. Not while there are unelected civil servants with significant power (you know, the ones we rile against in Brussels, only we have 5-6x as many)


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2016)

Could those who are so keen on remaining give a reasoned argument as to why the EU requires to run two parliaments and can they justify the huge costs of moving MEPs and the hundreds of civil servants around between them both.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Could those who are so keen on remaining give a reasoned argument as to why the EU requires to run two parliaments and can they justify the huge costs of moving MEPs and the hundreds of civil servants around between them both.
		
Click to expand...

No not really, no one has ever said it is perfect and it indeed does need reforming.  But my personal opinion is that we have a better chance of doing that from being in it and the benefits of membership of the EU outweigh the undoubted negatives it also brings.  

But then again I have probably stated this already, much like everyone has made the same point at least 7 times in this thread.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Could those who are so keen on remaining give a reasoned argument as to why the EU requires to run two parliaments and can they justify the huge costs of moving MEPs and the hundreds of civil servants around between them both.
		
Click to expand...

Good point, I don't like that about it. May as well leave then.

On a similar point, my work canteen just served up a horrible meal for lunch. Suppose I'd better quit my job!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Who do you think gets better agreements with suppliers. Tesco, or your local corner shop? Being part of a bigger entity has inherent benefits that doesn't exist in smaller replicas.
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought being the 5th largest economy in the world and 2nd largest in Europe would put us in a similar position to 'Tesco' as opposed to your corner shop.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2016)

jp5 said:



			What has Merkel said?
		
Click to expand...

Slightly out of date now but I'm sure you are capable of using Google

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5a2f90ea-d183-11e5-986a-62c79fcbcead.html#axzz4AQBI7uXV


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Who do you think gets better agreements with suppliers. Tesco, or your local corner shop? Being part of a bigger entity has inherent benefits that doesn't exist in smaller replicas.)
		
Click to expand...

If your local corner shop is a Spar franchise, probably them.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Good point, I don't like that about it. May as well leave then.

On a similar point, my work canteen just served up a horrible meal for lunch. Suppose I'd better quit my job!
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully your works canteen doesn't waste millions of Euros on horrible meals every month.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 2, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Slightly out of date now but I'm sure you are capable of using Google

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5a2f90ea-d183-11e5-986a-62c79fcbcead.html#axzz4AQBI7uXV

Click to expand...

Pickings on Google for Merkel's thoughts on the EU referendum were rather slim, and don't have a FT.com subscription to read that article am afraid.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

Is this it?   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726


----------



## jp5 (Jun 2, 2016)

That speech was made after my question about what Merkel had said prior to today.... I think "not much" was the correct answer!


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 2, 2016)

Have to have a little smile though, when it is said we stand more of a chance making changes whilst still in and at the bargaining table... Knowing absolutely full well bugger all, of any significance, has ever changed in this manner...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Good point, I don't like that about it. May as well leave then.

On a similar point, my work canteen just served up a horrible meal for lunch. Suppose I'd better quit my job!
		
Click to expand...

If your Company made you pay to work there you would probably be off quite sharpish and the Canteen meal would be forgot about.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Who do you think gets better agreements with suppliers. Tesco, or your local corner shop? Being part of a bigger entity has inherent benefits that doesn't exist in smaller replicas.

You have no freedom to determine your destiny. Nor do i. Nor does anyone outside of the 1% in Britain. And the ability to changes governments every 5 years does not change this in the slightest, other than in appearance. Not while there are unelected civil servants with significant power (you know, the ones we rile against in Brussels, only we have 5-6x as many)
		
Click to expand...

We are a little more than a corner shop on the World stage, I would say more of a Fortnum and Mason.
I am not quite as cynical as you regarding our democracy and we do have that power to change the Government of the day every five years, something not possible in the EU.   If you are happy with things that way then good for you.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

A demographic split on how people are likely to vote.  Chose your friends wisely. 

In conclusion, thick old Daily Mail reading right wingers will vote out, young educated Guardian reading left wingers and liberals will vote stay. No %$Â£% Sherlock


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Have to have a little smile though, when it is said we stand more of a chance making changes whilst still in and at the bargaining table... Knowing absolutely full well bugger all, of any significance, has ever changed in this manner...
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!

Cameron achieved virtually nothing in his negotiations a few months ago. Sitting at the table achieved what? And that was when it was in the EU's best interests to engage with the U.K.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 19669


A demographic split on how people are likely to vote.  Chose your friends wisely. 

In conclusion, thick old right wingers will vote out, young educated left wingers and liberals will vote stay. 

Click to expand...

Thanks Hacker, confirms all my thoughts.
Unless of course it is a spoof


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 19669


A demographic split on how people are likely to vote.  Chose your friends wisely 

Click to expand...

It doesn't mention the Gay Vegitarian Bikers against Fracking who might just swing it for 'Remain'


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks Hacker, confirms all my thoughts.
Unless of course it is a spoof

Click to expand...

nope, its genuine.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't mention the Gay Vegitarian Bikers against Fracking who might just swing it for 'Remain'
		
Click to expand...

Or indeed the Gaye Bykers on Acid vote which could swing it

[video=youtube_share;c09eHP_Z9mk]https://youtu.be/c09eHP_Z9mk?list=PL0aKp6ICz4pVGwwdSKIlaqdwGkXfT3uU  5[/video]


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2016)

So only around 50% of SNP voters want to stay then.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			nope, its genuine.
		
Click to expand...

I'm confused. I read the Guardian and the Times, and I voted LibDem until they sold out to the Tories. 

I really must swap my subscription to the Sun, and take a CSE in art and flower arranging.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So only around 50% of SNP voters want to stay then.
		
Click to expand...

No, what it is saying is that for example 93% of UKIP supporters have made their minds up about definitely voting leave, Or 82% of Guardian readers will definitely vote stay. Or in your example 50% of SNP supporters have definitely made their mind up about voting stay.  It does not mean the remaining 50% will vote leave, just that they have not made their minds up yet.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:





Old Skier said:



			So only around 50% of SNP voters want to stay then.
		
Click to expand...

No, what it is saying is that for example 93% of UKIP supporters have made their minds up about definitely voting leave, Or 82% of Guardian readers will definitely vote stay. Or in your example 50% of SNP supporters have definitely made their mind up about voting stay.  It does not mean the remaining 50% will vote leave, just that they have not made their minds up yet.
		
Click to expand...

Both of you are wrong!

The Title is 'By Remain *LEAD*'!

So something around 75! SNP want to Remain as opposed to 25 want to leave (assuming no 'undecideds')! Likewise 93% MORE of UKIP supporters want to leave than Remain!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2016)

Just an out of date poll that gives no real information then. A bit like all the other political polls that have been wrong over the last 5 years.

I get the feeling that the public like to play the pollsters these days.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Neither of you are right!

The Title is 'By Remain *LEAD*'!

So something around 75! SNP want to Remain as opposed to 25 want to leave (assuming no 'undecideds')! Likewise 93% MORE of UKIP supporters want to leave than Remain!
		
Click to expand...

I took my explanation from the whole article, which is now frustratingly unavailable behind a paywall. The whole article was talking about the undecidedes and how that probably will influence the outcome.  The gist was that the stay campaigners need to mobilise their supporters in those groups listed more, as the leave campaigners in their groups are more likely to turn up and vote leave. So UKIP voters will vote and will more than likely vote leave.  Youngsters are less likely to bother turning up but if they did they would more than likely vote stay. 

On a basic level it was also saying the further left or right the bar was means the more likely it is that if you are for example a SNP, Guardian reader, Mail reader etc etc to vote that way. So UKIP members are much more likely to vote leave, Guardian readers much more likely to vote stay etc etc.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			No, what it is saying is that for example 93% of UKIP supporters have made their minds up about definitely voting leave, Or 82% of Guardian readers will definitely vote stay. Or in your example 50% of SNP supporters have definitely made their mind up about voting stay.  It does not mean the remaining 50% will vote leave, just that they have not made their minds up yet.
		
Click to expand...

50% wins most elections.:lol:

Anyone remember what the Tories got?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I took my explanation from the whole article, which is now frustratingly unavailable behind a paywall. The whole article was talking about the undecidedes and how that probably will influence the outcome.  The gist was that the stay campaigners need to mobilise their supporters in those groups listed more, as the leave campaigners in their groups are more likely to turn up and vote leave. So UKIP voters will vote and will more than likely vote leave.  Youngsters are less likely to bother turning up but if they did they would more than likely vote stay. 

On a basic level it was also saying the further left or right the bar was means the more likely it is that if you are for example a SNP, Guardian reader, Mail reader etc etc to vote that way. So UKIP members are much more likely to vote leave, Guardian readers much more likely to vote stay etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

I still don't think you get what the stats are about! It's the difference between the %age one way or the other that is shown (Blue being Remain and Magenta being Leave)! Here's an article showing similar charts, but on Index basis (where 100 is 'even split'). http://www.populus.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-index-whos-remain-leave-supporters/


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			50% wins most elections.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Yes it does... But, this is not an election...




			Anyone remember what the Tories got?
		
Click to expand...

Enough to screw us over ...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone remember what the Tories got?
		
Click to expand...

Enough to win


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Enough to win
		
Click to expand...

Yes, believe it or not we all know that.

I was talking percentage of votes following your 50% comment.
I take it that you do not know so I shall inform you that the Tory vote at the last election was 36%.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, believe it or not we all know that.

I was talking percentage of votes following your 50% comment.
I take it that you do not know so I shall inform you that the Tory vote at the last election was 36%.
		
Click to expand...

But still more than anyone else


----------



## MarkE (Jun 2, 2016)

I think he may have lost a few % after his performance on Sky news tonight. Faisal Islam did a bit of a job on him and it was great to see the PM squirm.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 2, 2016)

Do brexit just need 51% or is there a muirfieldesque 2/3s clause....?


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Do brexit just need 51% or is there a muirfieldesque 2/3s 

50% + wins.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 3, 2016)

Yeah it was sort of rhetorical. Probably should've used a smiley!


----------



## Fish (Jun 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			No not really, *no one has ever said it is perfect and it indeed does need reforming.  But my personal opinion is that we have a better chance of doing that from being in it *and the benefits of membership of the EU outweigh the undoubted negatives it also brings.  

But then again I have probably stated this already, much like everyone has made the same point at least 7 times in this thread.
		
Click to expand...

Really, who can reform it?  

Is it not true that since 1996 Britain has complained and challenged 55 new laws in the council of ministers and we were defeated all 55 times!  So currently we can have laws imposed upon us which we can do absolutely squat about even though we believe they are unjust and not in our own country's interest! 

Pledges made by our elected government also mean squat when immigration, migration, VAT and anything else that will benefit other European countries at our expense can and will be decided in Brussels.

How can you reform something that is biased, the rest of Europe is a parasite trying to feed off us, it's a load of tosh about trading to and from the world or Europe will be affected, you only have to spend a good deal of time on the motorways to see the amount of foreign vehicles that are delivering goods into us and see the amount of British lorries heading overseas, all that isn't going to stop because we vote out, these countries need and want our business and vice versa, and being in or out of Europe will not change that, because we are still in Europe geographically, we just don't want to be ruled by a non elected body and have our own laws squashed or dictated to by those countries that will benefit greater by them at our cost! 

Vote OUT!


----------



## Fish (Jun 3, 2016)

and, just when you think it should be easier by being in Europe allowing us to deport criminals and not have the expense of having them in our jails costing us millions, this report actually goes on to state that Brussels makes it more difficult if not obstructs us from deporting anyone undesirable back to their country of origin!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2016)

Fish said:



			and, just when you think it should be easier by being in Europe allowing us to deport criminals and not have the expense of having them in our jails costing us millions, this report actually goes on to state that Brussels makes it more difficult if not obstructs us from deporting anyone undesirable back to their country of origin!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

Click to expand...

If you read it it states that the failure to deport these criminals will lead to people questioning the benefits in the EU. It does not state that the EU or Brussels are blocking the deportation, that is a spin on this taken by the leave campaigners. It is questioning the efficiencies of the deportation process by the current government. 

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-directorates-q4-2015-report-published-16-17/


----------



## Fish (Jun 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you read it it states that the failure to deport these criminals will lead to people questioning the benefits in the EU. It does not state that the EU or Brussels are blocking the deportation, that is a spin on this taken by the leave campaigners. It is questioning the efficiencies of the deportation process by the current government. 

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-directorates-q4-2015-report-published-16-17/

Click to expand...

You didn't answer my question though on how can we reform something that is clearly showing a total disregard to what we think is best for ourselves and not Europe, we have challenged many laws imposed on us to no avail, so what will change, I think it can and will only get worse! 

On your other point..

Committee chairman Labour MP Keith Vaz said the Home Office was failing to tackle the issue "despite repeated warnings".
"*The public would expect our membership of the European Union to make it easier to deport European offenders, but this is clearly not the case*, and we continue to keep thousands of these criminals at great and unnecessary expense," he said.
Vote Leave claimed the foreign offenders were costing Â£36,000 a year each to jail, *and that the EU made it "more difficult" to deport overseas criminals."*


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2016)

"You've got to be at the table to be able to change it," says Merkel. 

Is that the same Merkel who blocked the major point in the negotiations that Cameron had a few months back?

When he was at the table he came away with diddly squat.

I find it hugely unfair that we have to pay to be in the club yet 18 other countries are paid to be in the club. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave? And Germany would have to pick up a major share of our payment if we left. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2016)

Fish said:



			You didn't answer my question though on how can we reform something that is clearly showing a total disregard to what we think is best for ourselves and not Europe, we have challenged many laws imposed on us to no avail, so what will change, I think it can and will only get worse! 

On your other point..

Committee chairman Labour MP Keith Vaz said the Home Office was failing to tackle the issue "despite repeated warnings".
"*The public would expect our membership of the European Union to make it easier to deport European offenders, but this is clearly not the case*, and we continue to keep thousands of these criminals at great and unnecessary expense," he said.
Vote Leave claimed the foreign offenders were costing Â£36,000 a year each to jail, *and that the EU made it "more difficult" to deport overseas criminals."*

Click to expand...

I am not arguing the first point, you would expect it to be easier, it's a fair point well made by the parliamentary committee. But the claim that the EU is making it difficult comes from the leave campaign and I can see no evidence for that in the report. 

And the problem with that is that if the EU is not the cause of the problem, then coming out will make sod all difference, we will still have these criminals that we need to deport to countries that we theoretically have fewer ties with now. Yes the current system does not seem to be working and it needs reforming and making more efficient, but I can't see how coming out will make it better. Unless the leave campaign has any suggestions instead of just saying the current system is all Brussels fault?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2016)

And as for reform then as a basic principle I believe you have to have a voice and be part of that group to have a chance of influencing something. I'm not claiming that that voice will always be listened to, but not being in that group will mean you have no influence whatsoever. 

Think of it like golf club committees. Many times on here people say if you want to influence what goes on in your club and help reform it and possibly modernise it a bit then stop moaning on Internet forums and do something about it, join the committee. Which is a fair point. Same principle to me with the EU.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And as for reform then as a basic principle I believe you have to have a voice and be part of that group to have a chance of influencing something. I'm not claiming that that voice will always be listened to, but not being in that group will mean you have no influence whatsoever. 

Think of it like golf club committees. Many times on here people say if you want to influence what goes on in your club and help reform it and possibly modernise it a bit then stop moaning on Internet forums and do something about it, join the committee. Which is a fair point. Same principle to me with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

But if you aren't in the club why would you want to reform it. I wish I had a Euro for every time I've sat in a committee meeting and had zero influence because a cartel of committee members have decided the issue before the meeting.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 3, 2016)

I find it amusing that to change a golf club bye law, for instance to admit women, requires a 66% vote, whilst something as important as an in/out referendum on leaving the EU, or in Scotland case, the UK, can be decided by 50% of the vote, plus one vote.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But if you aren't in the club why would you want to reform it. I wish I had a Euro for every time I've sat in a committee meeting and had zero influence because a cartel of committee members have decided the issue before the meeting.
		
Click to expand...

But if you are on the committee for long enough and have enough influence and reputation then would you not become one of the decision making cartel?  And might other people who also agreed with you possibly feel more confident to speak out against the status quo if they knew they were not alone?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But if you are on the committee for long enough and have enough influence and reputation then would you not become one of the decision making cartel?  And might other people who also agreed with you possibly feel more confident to speak out against the status quo if they knew they were not alone?
		
Click to expand...

I think 14 years on committee gave me a fair idea of how it worked. And no, I voted for each issue on its merits, and got rollocked for not voting with the cartel on a number of occasions.

The increasing influence of the Visigard within the EU was one reason I'd absolutely vote out. Its becoming like the Eurovision Song Contest. It doesn't matter what the western European nations want, the Eastern European nations are voting en-bloc.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2016)

And still the political commentators don't ask the question of Cameron and the remain follows why "The end of the world wasn't nigh" a year ago when Cameron said we would leave if we didn't get the sanctions which we require (which we still haven't). What has changed in a year?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 3, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And still the political commentators don't ask the question of Cameron and the remain follows why "The end of the world wasn't nigh" a year ago when Cameron said we would leave if we didn't get the sanctions which we require (which we still haven't). What has changed in a year?
		
Click to expand...

You're watching the wrong programmes, I recently saw him asked this directly.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're watching the wrong programmes, I recently saw him asked this directly.
		
Click to expand...

What programme was that on and what was his reply?


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 3, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			I find it amusing that to change a golf club bye law, for instance to admit women, requires a 66% vote, whilst something as important as an in/out referendum on leaving the EU, or in Scotland case, the UK, can be decided by 50% of the vote, plus one vote.
		
Click to expand...

We are not voting to actually change anything though. Just being asked a question (like Scotland). Obviously the numbers will then affect future policy but it's not set in stone that a 51% - 49% vote to leave will actually mean we'll leave.  I too agree that for something as important as this (and Scotland independence) there should be a real mandate. Maybe not 66% but say 60-40 or perhaps 55-45.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What programme was that on and what was his reply?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what the programme was and, of course, he weasled out some smarmy non-answer.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			We are not voting to actually change anything though. Just being asked a question (like Scotland). Obviously the numbers will then affect future policy but it's not set in stone that a 51% - 49% vote to leave will actually mean we'll leave.  I too agree that for something as important as this (and Scotland independence) there should be a real mandate. Maybe not 66% but say 60-40 or perhaps 55-45.
		
Click to expand...

So if there wasn't a suitable percentage vote would you keep holding referendums until there was?


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So if there wasn't a suitable percentage vote would you keep holding referendums until there was?
		
Click to expand...

Er, no. I wouldn't hold a referendum at all. They are a very bad idea. At best they are a reasonably accurate assessment of public opinion on issues they mostly know very little about (.....and I include myself in that statement as well as you and most of the population). Oh, and those who do know a lot about economics, business, finance, health, science investment, security etc are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in. Not that I'd let facts like that influence me at all.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 3, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Er, no. I wouldn't hold a referendum at all. They are a very bad idea. At best they are a reasonably accurate assessment of public opinion on issues they mostly know very little about (.....and I include myself in that statement as well as you and most of the population). Oh, and those who do know a lot about economics, business, finance, health, science investment, security etc are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in. Not that I'd let facts like that influence me at all.
		
Click to expand...


But government is meant to be for the ordinary person every bit as much for the self serving folk you mention...


Don't believe Cameron [and cronies] have any intention of taking us anywhere unless the vote is of landslide proportions in favour of exit... Really don't trust the bloke one little bit...


Remain disappointed with Jezza ... Frank Field is my new #1 hero :thup:...


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

Fish said:



			Really, who can reform it?  

Is it not true that since 1996 Britain has complained and challenged 55 new laws in the council of ministers and we were defeated all 55 times!  So currently we can have laws imposed upon us which we can do absolutely squat about even though we believe they are unjust and not in our own country's interest! 

Pledges made by our elected government also mean squat when immigration, migration, VAT and anything else that will benefit other European countries at our expense can and will be decided in Brussels.

How can you reform something that is biased, the rest of Europe is a parasite trying to feed off us, it's a load of tosh about trading to and from the world or Europe will be affected, you only have to spend a good deal of time on the motorways to see the amount of foreign vehicles that are delivering goods into us and see the amount of British lorries heading overseas, all that isn't going to stop because we vote out, these countries need and want our business and vice versa, and being in or out of Europe will not change that, because we are still in Europe geographically, we just don't want to be ruled by a non elected body and have our own laws squashed or dictated to by those countries that will benefit greater by them at our cost! 

Vote OUT!
		
Click to expand...

A rant which nicely encapsulates the incoherence of the Brexit position. I love the 'counting lorries to predict the future' delusion. Priceless.

Well played, sir.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Er, no. I wouldn't hold a referendum at all. They are a very bad idea. At best they are a reasonably accurate assessment of public opinion on issues they mostly know very little about (.....and I include myself in that statement as well as you and most of the population). Oh, and those who do know a lot about economics, business, finance, health, science investment, security etc are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in. Not that I'd let facts like that influence me at all.
		
Click to expand...

This referendum was a badly judged attempt to quieten the Tories xenophobes on Europe and get around Boris. Big stupid mistake, and that is why Cameron is done win, lose or draw. 

The graphic posted yesterday shows that the poorly educated want out and the well educated want to stay. Says it all.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The graphic posted yesterday shows that the poorly educated want out and the well educated want to stay. Says it all.
		
Click to expand...


Well, I'll take my 5 O levels ahead of anything you've got if it means I don't get to feel the need to insult others with differing opinions to your own...


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, I'll take my 5 O levels ahead of anything you've got if it means I don't get to feel the need to insult others with differing opinions to your own...
		
Click to expand...

No worries. I am not insulted by your 5 O Levels nor surprised by your inability to put together a more substantive response than just to have a go, since the entire Brexit campaign is built on endless repetition of braindead slogans.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			This referendum was a badly judged attempt to quieten the Tories xenophobes on Europe and get around Boris. Big stupid mistake, and that is why Cameron is done win, lose or draw.
		
Click to expand...

Inclined to agree with this!



Ethan said:



			The graphic posted yesterday shows that the poorly educated *want* out and the well educated *want* to stay. Says it all.
		
Click to expand...

But you are wrong on this - and I hope that's not how you draw conclusions in your professional capacity!

Had you used the word 'favour' instead of 'want', then I'd be more inclined to agree! 

Even the 'poorly educated' and 'well educated' are debateable! You would have to state 'lower qualified' and 'higher qualified' to actually reflect the stats!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The graphic posted yesterday shows that the poorly educated want out and the well educated want to stay. Says it all.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for calling me poorly educated. The school that sold your golf club the land is clearly a waste of time, I would have been better off at the local comprehensive


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Inclined to agree with this!


But you are wrong on this - and I hope that's not how you draw conclusions in your professional capacity!

Had you used the word 'favour' instead of 'want', then I'd be more inclined to agree! 

Even the 'poorly educated' and 'well educated' are debateable! You would have to state 'lower qualified' and 'higher qualified' to actually reflect the stats!
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. The distinction is between level of education and intelligence. Not having much education does not mean someone is not intelligent. L


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for calling me poorly educated. The school that sold your golf club the land is clearly a waste of time, I would have been better off at the local comprehensive  

Click to expand...

I wasn't calling you or anybody else poorly educated. It is a broad brush correlation between educational status and EU referendum voting intention, but it is not a simple all or nothing. There is a correlation between following football or rugby and educational achievement too, but that doesn't mean a football fan is necessarily not well educated.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I disagree....
		
Click to expand...

Disagree all you want! Your statement about WANT-ing out is irrefutably wrong - the stats in the chart clearly indicate that they 'favour', not 'want'!



Ethan said:



			The distinction is between level of education and intelligence. Not having much education does not mean someone is not intelligent. L
		
Click to expand...

And that was precisely my (2nd) point!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I wasn't calling you or anybody else poorly educated. It is a broad brush correlation between educational status and EU referendum voting intention, but it is not a simple all or nothing. There is a correlation between following football or rugby and educational achievement too, but that doesn't mean a football fan is necessarily not well educated.
		
Click to expand...

If you hadn't put the comment 'Says it all' on the end I would have been inclined to believe you but that final statement indicates to me that you agree with the comment. Sad really as I know plenty of very intelligent people that are in favour of voting to leave.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for calling me poorly educated. The school that sold your golf club the land is clearly a waste of time, I would have been better off at the local comprehensive  

Click to expand...

Don't worry, both sides appear to be a mix of Oxford graduates and CSE in art students. 

Not surprisingly, Jeremy Corbyn has two E-grades at A-level and is a college dropout. Perhaps the most important issue since he took up the leadership, and he's an absolute lame duck... unlike David Miliband, a Remainer, whose education CV is stunning. C'mon Labour, bring him back in!!


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Disagree all you want! Your statement about WANT-ing out is irrefutably wrong - the stats in the chart clearly indicate that they 'favour', not 'want'!



And that was precisely my (2nd) point! 

Click to expand...

1. Refute it, then. Show me why favour and want are not broadly the same.

2. Then you did not make it very well. You said well qualified, which is a correlate of well educated not intelligent.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			1. Refute it, then. Show me why favour and want are not broadly the same.

2. Then you did not make it very well. You said well qualified, which is a correlate of well educated not intelligent.
		
Click to expand...

1. The numbers speak for themselves - as you should admit! Unless the 'lead' was 100%, then some either 'want' the opposing view or are undecided! So your unequivocal statement/s is/are wrong! Whereas 'favour' is correct, because that's what the stats indicate! 

2. I posted 'well qualified' because that's exactly what I meant- and nothing else (rather like the way Rules of Golf are worded)! Your interpretation of the qualifications (as stated on the chart) was exactly that - an interpretation, that may or may not be valid! Again, that's what I stated in my second point. 

Oh, and introducing 'broadly' is rather a cop-out - and a poor one imo too!


----------



## Ethan (Jun 3, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			1. The numbers speak for themselves - as you should admit! Unless the 'lead' was 100%, then some either 'want' the opposing view or are undecided! So your unequivocal statement/s is/are wrong! Whereas 'favour' is correct, because that's what the stats indicate! 

2. I posted 'well qualified' because that's exactly what I meant- and nothing else (rather like the way Rules of Golf are worded)! Your interpretation of the qualifications (as stated on the chart) was exactly that - an interpretation, that may or may not be valid! Again, that's what I stated in my second point. 

Oh, and introducing 'broadly' is rather a cop-out - and a poor one imo too!
		
Click to expand...

At the risk of prolonging the pedantic a and semantics, neither a Uni degree or an A level are qualifications per se. The survey therefore did not address qualifications, rather level of education. People here have taken that to be a proxy for intelligence, which it may or may not be. 

'Broadly' simple acknowledges that the words are not synonyms. It is common parlance to say that people wanted a Tory Govt at the last election, meaning that more wanted that than any other choice, even if a minority in absolute terms. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that UKIPpers and Mail and Express readers 'want' a Brexit. They may it may not know any coherent reasons why, but that's another story.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			At the risk of prolonging the pedantic a and semantics, neither a Uni degree or an A level are qualifications per se. The survey therefore did not address qualifications, rather level of education. People here have taken that to be a proxy for intelligence, which it may or may not be. 

'Broadly' simple acknowledges that the words are not synonyms. It is common parlance to say that people wanted a Tory Govt at the last election, meaning that more wanted that than any other choice, even if a minority in absolute terms. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that UKIPpers and Mail and Express readers 'want' a Brexit. They may it may not know any coherent reasons why, but that's another story.
		
Click to expand...


:rofl:


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2016)

Am I right that the social class of people equates to how well off they are? So A, B and C1 being more likely to vote Remain are the wealthier in society and C2, D and E being more likely to vote Leave are the poorer members of society? And could this be linked to the fact that the wealthier people are more likely to have private medical cover and kids in private schools so aren't going to notice waits for medical/dental treatment and increased school class sizes caused by an increasing population?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			At the risk of prolonging the pedantic a and semantics, neither a Uni degree or an A level are qualifications per se. The survey therefore did not address qualifications, rather level of education. People here have taken that to be a proxy for intelligence, which it may or may not be. 

'Broadly' simple acknowledges that the words are not synonyms. It is common parlance to say that people wanted a Tory Govt at the last election, meaning that more wanted that than any other choice, even if a minority in absolute terms. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that UKIPpers and Mail and Express readers 'want' a Brexit. They may it may not know any coherent reasons why, but that's another story.
		
Click to expand...

The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.   I don't think your comments are Hydrogen!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Am I right that the social class of people equates to how well off they are? So A, B and C1 being more likely to vote Remain are the wealthier in society and C2, D and E being more likely to vote Leave are the poorer members of society? And could this be linked to the fact that the wealthier people are more likely to have private medical cover and kids in private schools so aren't going to notice waits for medical/dental treatment and increased school class sizes caused by an increasing population?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct.   Cameron and Osborne wont notice any difference in the Chipping Norton enclave.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Am I right that the social class of people equates to how well off they are? So A, B and C1 being more likely to vote Remain are the wealthier in society and C2, D and E being more likely to vote Leave are the poorer members of society? And could this be linked to the fact that the wealthier people are more likely to have private medical cover and kids in private schools so aren't going to notice waits for medical/dental treatment and increased school class sizes caused by an increasing population?
		
Click to expand...

Those socio-economic groups are also less likely to find their jobs in jeopardy in the event of a vote to leave.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Those socio-economic groups are also less likely to find their jobs in jeopardy in the event of a vote to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean the A, B and C1 are less likely or the C2, D and E?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you mean the A, B and C1 are less likely or the C2, D and E?
		
Click to expand...

The A, B and C1 are far less likely to suffer the detrimental effects upon the economy and certainly will not be among the first to face redundancy in the event of a Leave vote.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			The A, B and C1 are far less likely to suffer the detrimental effects upon the economy and certainly will not be among the first to face redundancy in the event of a Leave vote.
		
Click to expand...

So C2, D and E voters choosing to vote Leave are a bit like turkeys voting for Xmas then?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So C2, D and E voters choosing to vote Leave are a bit like turkeys voting for Xmas then?
		
Click to expand...

IMO yes if job and financial security is the determining factor.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 3, 2016)

I want out. Mrs Mogs wants out too. We are not stupid, or uneducated. Mrs mogs in particular has 3 degrees, and two diplomas. She is also very financially aware. There is no voting for the status quo. Change is coming, in or out. It's about how much control do you want.  I for one don't want to be controlled by the eastern block, and 70 million turks. The EU is not what we joined. That was the common market, and that made sense. The monster that is the EU does not.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 3, 2016)

I want out as well it's time to take back control of our laws and borders.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2016)

Ethan said:



			This referendum was a badly judged attempt to quieten the Tories xenophobes on Europe and get around Boris. Big stupid mistake, and that is why Cameron is done win, lose or draw. 

The graphic posted yesterday shows that the poorly educated want out and the well educated want to stay. Says it all.
		
Click to expand...

Thats you on the out side then


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2016)

The well educated getting desperate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36446521


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			IMO yes if job and financial security is the determining factor.
		
Click to expand...

And as you suggest it's an opinion and not fact.  IMO Leaving will open trade Worldwide and create more job opportunities, linking that with the lower levels of immigration; labour will be a scarcer resource that will push up job salaries, especially for the C2, D and E socio-economic groups.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2016)

'Call me Dave' thinks we are so much better off in the EU but what was the slippery fellow saying to us a little while ago|

[video=youtube;sQ2n7oMcSi0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0[/video]


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2016)

Some interesting figures on EU motions that were opposed by the majority of UK MEPs that were still passed by the EU. Makes the claims that it is better to stay in and reform the EU from inside seem a bit weak if we are opposing so many motions that still get passed.......


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 3, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Some interesting figures on EU motions that were opposed by the majority of UK MEPs that were still passed by the EU. Makes the claims that it is better to stay in and reform the EU from inside seem a bit weak if we are opposing so many motions that still get passed.......

View attachment 19672

Click to expand...

That's democracy for you! What are these figures like for the other member states? Pretty similar I'd bet.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			I want out. Mrs Mogs wants out too. We are not stupid, or uneducated. Mrs mogs in particular has 3 degrees, and two diplomas. She is also very financially aware. There is no voting for the status quo. Change is coming, in or out. It's about how much control do you want.  I for one don't want to be controlled by the eastern block, and 70 million turks. The EU is not what we joined. That was the common market, and that made sense. The monster that is the EU does not.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but "degrees aren't a sign of intelligence per se."


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Yes, but "degrees aren't a sign of intelligence per se."
		
Click to expand...

What about a Certificate for swimming a width?

I'll get me coat!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What about a Certificate for swimming a width?

I'll get me coat!
		
Click to expand...

As long as you don't swim the channel.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's democracy for you! What are these figures like for the other member states? Pretty similar I'd bet.
		
Click to expand...

In that case no one gets what they want.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			In that case no one gets what they want.
		
Click to expand...

Rubbish. In the words of the song.... you can't ALWAYS get what you want. Seems we all get it pretty often though.

This is the same nonsense the SNP keep pedalling for Scottish independence.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 4, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Thats you on the out side then
		
Click to expand...

No, not at all. He called it for entirely self-serving reasons, but that doesn't change the importance of the right decision, to stay.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And as you suggest it's an opinion and not fact.  IMO Leaving will open trade Worldwide and create more job opportunities, linking that with the lower levels of immigration; labour will be a scarcer resource that will push up job salaries, especially for the C2, D and E socio-economic groups.
		
Click to expand...

You could be right in the long term but who will suffer the pain in the short to medium term?

Less likely to be those of  us who are comfortable enough to be golf club members and the like.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2016)

I'm changing my vote to Beaver
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...u-referendum-campaign-we-never-knew-we-needed

Wonder why the Tory guy is wearing a floral skirt?


----------



## Ethan (Jun 4, 2016)

A Guardian review of how the sides interpret the data for and against. 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/03/brexit-how-can-the-same-statistics-be-read-so-differently?CMP=fb_gu


----------



## Khamelion (Jun 4, 2016)

â€˜Wonâ€™t you join our Common Market?â€™ said the spider to the fly, 
â€˜It really is a winner and the cost is not too highâ€™
â€˜I know De Gaulle said â€™â€™ Nonâ€™â€™, but he hadnâ€™t got a clue,
â€˜We want you in, my friends and I, for we have plans for you.  
â€˜Youâ€™ll have to pay a little more than we do, just for now,
â€˜As Herr Kohl said, and I agree, we need a new milch cow,
â€˜Itâ€™s just a continental term, believe me , mon ami,
â€˜Like â€˜â€™Vive la Franceâ€™â€™ or â€˜â€™Mad Anglaisâ€™â€™ or even â€˜â€™E.E.C.â€™â€™.  
â€˜As to the rules, donâ€™t worry friend, thereâ€™s really but a few
â€˜Youâ€™ll find that we ignore them - but they all apply to you.
â€˜Give and share between us, thatâ€™s what itâ€™s all about,
â€˜You do all the giving, and we all share it out.  
â€˜Itâ€™s very British, is it not, to help a friend in need?
â€˜Youâ€™ve done it twice in two World Wars, a fact we must concede,
â€˜So climb aboard the Market Train, donâ€™t sit there on the side,
â€˜Your continental cousins want to take you for a rideâ€™


----------



## delc (Jun 4, 2016)

We are being subjected far too much unsubstantiated bull from both sides. Will we gain or lose jobs if we leave. Will it stop the flow of migrants from the Middle-East? Will house prices go up or down?  Who knows?  My gut feeling is that we will be better off staying in, which is how I will vote. Just hope that the Daily Mail/ Express/Sun reading Little Englanders lose the argument. :mmm:


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2016)

delc said:



			Just hope that the Daily Mail/ Express/Sun reading Little Englanders lose the argument. :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

So is not only down to academic qualifications, we need to take into account what papers you read. :blah:


----------



## delc (Jun 4, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So is not only down to academic qualifications, we need to take into account what papers you read. :blah:
		
Click to expand...

The Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun have been coming out with anti-EU rhetoric for years, and especially in the last few months. It makes you wonder what their owners' vested interest is! Maybe they don't like their employees having any employment rights?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2016)

Whether you are a Remainer or a Brexiter could you please explain to me why the top four contributors to the EU budget pay what they do.

Germany; GDP is almost 50% higher than ours yet after their rebate they pay pretty much what we pay.

France; GDP not far short of ours yet after their rebate they're net contribution is way less - about half of ours.

Italy; GDP not hugely below ours yet the net contribution is miles away.

And then there's us...

Our benefits, support for the disabled, lack of social housing, increasing class sizes, our NHS and increasing retirement ages are all falling away... seriously, I just don't get why with their GDP's they get away with paying what they do.

Paying more proportionally, based on GDP as its supposed to be, fine I can accept that no problem. If we're staying in, at least get the payments sorted fairly.

We are mugs, absolute mugs to pay the disproportionate levels we do. And that doesn't even take into account the stupid fines we've paid.

And then there's the retirements ages... they will end up relatively close, eventually, but there's basket case EU countries out there with better retirement ages than the UK.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2016)

delc said:



			The Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun have been coming out with anti-EU rhetoric for years, and especially in the last few months. It makes you wonder what their *owners' vested interest is!* Maybe they don't like their employees having any employment rights?
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that when a large number of companies came out in favour of staying in it was trumpeted by the Remain campaign but when some companies have opposing views they must have "vested interests". Even as a supporter of staying in that smacks of double standards to me.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting that when a large number of companies came out in favour of staying in it was trumpeted by the Remain campaign but when some companies have opposing views they must have "vested interests". Even as a supporter of staying in that smacks of double standards to me.
		
Click to expand...

"Large number of companies."

Only 17% of the companies approached responded to the question about Remain. But with the fantastic spin put on it you'd think everyone and their dog had said stay.

The more I look behind the hype put out by both sides, the more I think we're being led up the garden path by both sides.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting that when a large number of companies came out in favour of staying in it was trumpeted by the Remain campaign but when some companies have opposing views they must have "vested interests". Even as a supporter of staying in that smacks of double standards to me.
		
Click to expand...

Youve got to take into account who the poster is.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

delc said:



			We are being subjected far too much unsubstantiated bull from both sides. Will we gain or lose jobs if we leave. Will it stop the flow of migrants from the Middle-East? Will house prices go up or down?  Who knows?  My gut feeling is that we will be better off staying in, which is how I will vote. Just hope that the Daily Mail/ Express/Sun reading Little Englanders lose the argument. :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

You may be surprised that the Referendum is not for 'Englanders' but the whole of the UK.  Likewise I hope the 'Little EUr's' lose the argument.   It's a Big Big world out there and I am looking forward to us playing an active growing role in it.   We are a great nation and can be a great World Class leader if unchained.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			A Guardian review of how the sides interpret the data for and against. 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/03/brexit-how-can-the-same-statistics-be-read-so-differently?CMP=fb_gu

Click to expand...

Typical lefty claptrap.  These arguments work on the basis we will not trade anything to the EU if we leave.  Anyone with more than two brain cells knows that wont happen.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You may be surprised that the Referendum is not for 'Englanders' but the whole of the UK.  Likewise I hope the 'Little EUr's' lose the argument.   It's a Big Big world out there and I am looking forward to us playing an active growing role in it.   We are a great nation and can be a great World Class leader if unchained.
		
Click to expand...

Yet your strategy for playing a big part in the world is to pull out of the biggest international cooperation organisation to which we belong. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yet your strategy for playing a big part in the world is to pull out of the biggest international cooperation organisation to which we belong. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
		
Click to expand...

But you don't have to be in it to trade with it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yet your strategy for playing a big part in the world is to pull out of the biggest international cooperation organisation to which we belong. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
		
Click to expand...

One where we have no power of direction as it's undemocratically directed and is incapable of dealing with any kind of international issues.  Just look to the debacle that is taking place in the Mediterranean right now to see how ineffective the EU sloth is.   Regarding your dilemma I suggest you wait a little longer as if we Stay you will end up crying over 'spilt milk' if our opportunities to do something really great are lost.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

View attachment 19687


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2016)

Four out of the last six posts from SR.............The Messiah, trying to hard or desperate?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Four out of the last six posts from SR.............The Messiah, trying to hard or desperate?
		
Click to expand...

Now you know what we had to put up with two years ago with the Scottish referendum...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			One where we have no power of direction as it's undemocratically directed and is incapable of dealing with any kind of international issues.  Just look to the debacle that is taking place in the Mediterranean right now to see how ineffective the EU sloth is.   Regarding your dilemma I suggest you wait a little longer as if we Stay you will end up crying over 'spilt milk' if our opportunities to do something really great are lost.
		
Click to expand...

Really struggling to follow your logic. If the ROTW are mean to us like the EU have supposedly been will we run away again?

You must admit the inherent contradiction in your posts?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Really struggling to follow your logic. If the ROTW are mean to us like the EU have supposedly been will we run away again?

You must admit the inherent contradiction in your posts?
		
Click to expand...

You are moving from sensible debate to one of insults.  If thats the way you feel you can score points then it's a bit of a disappointment but one we have become accustomed to with the Stay campaign.    I will try not to attack your integrity just because you hold a different opinion though.

Who said anything about the EU or the ROTW being mean to us?   The EU is just acting in their normal undemocratic manner due to them being on a one way track to a superstate that is run by Big Brother.   I dont see that as being mean to us I just see it as the way it is.   The ROTW have no such ambitions.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Four out of the last six posts from SR.............The Messiah, trying to hard or desperate?
		
Click to expand...

Heres another just for you.   If thats the best you can add to the debate then it's not worth a reasoned reply


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Heres another just for you.   If thats the best you can add to the debate then it's not worth a reasoned reply 

Click to expand...

But you'll give one anyway


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But you'll give one anyway  

Click to expand...

Not if he says no more.   It's a bit like you jumping in with nothing to add but sarcasm, is that the way it works now.

PS.  Does the whistling smiley attempt to belittle me?  Not very clever, is it!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are moving from sensible debate to one of insults.  If thats the way you feel you can score points then it's a bit of a disappointment but one we have become accustomed to with the Stay campaign.    I will try not to attack your integrity just because you hold a different opinion though.

Who said anything about the EU or the ROTW being mean to us?   The EU is just acting in their normal undemocratic manner due to them being on a one way track to a superstate that is run by Big Brother.   I dont see that as being mean to us I just see it as the way it is.   The ROTW have no such ambitions.
		
Click to expand...

Struggling to see any insult in anything I've posted. Just highlighting how illogical your stance appears to me. Sorry you feel the need to personalise the discussion.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yet your strategy for playing a big part in the world is to pull out of the biggest international cooperation organisation to which we belong. *I don't know whether to laugh or cry*.
		
Click to expand...




FairwayDodger said:



			Really struggling to follow your logic. If the ROTW are mean to us like the EU have supposedly been will we run away again?

*You must admit the inherent contradiction in your posts?*

Click to expand...




FairwayDodger said:



*Struggling to see any insult in anything I've posted. Just highlighting how illogical your stance appears to me. Sorry you feel the need to personalise the discussion*.
		
Click to expand...

Just take another look.   This method of questioning peoples integrity rather than debate the issue in hand and directing your argument to the subject matter is a policy I find a little concerning.  It creates a debate than descends into personal point scoring such that you either have to stand back and be insulted or retaliate.   It's not a good way to debate but alas more and more used.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2016)

Im tempted to do my annual mass debate joke, but i've lost the will to live

and we have another 19 days or so to put up with this and then the aftermath

give me strength


----------



## Ethan (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Typical lefty claptrap.  These arguments work on the basis we will not trade anything to the EU if we leave.  Anyone with more than two brain cells knows that wont happen.
		
Click to expand...

The Brexit strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are British, dammit, Johnny Foreigner needs us more than we need him. We won two world wars (OK, the Russians won WW2) and we can be great again. 

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Well, this one is based on a theory somewhat like King Canute's, that sheer will and self belief is enough. The same people advocating this are those who complain that the working class in this country are feckless and lazy. 

The Brexit campaign is just smoke and mirrors. At least be honest and say it is because you don't like the Germans and French instead of dressing up fantasy data in a pitiful attempt to draw a respectably facade over naked xenophobia.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Just take another look.   This method of questioning peoples integrity rather than debate the issue in hand and directing your argument to the subject matter is a policy I find a little concerning.  It creates a debate than descends into personal point scoring such that you either have to stand back and be insulted or retaliate.   It's not a good way to debate but alas more and more used.
		
Click to expand...

Nope still don't see what the problem is. I haven't made any personal remarks just stated that your "leave the Eu but do more international cooperation" plan is contradictory. Indeed, you are the only one who is making a personal attack.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The Brexit strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are British, dammit, Johnny Foreigner needs us more than we need him. We won two world wars (OK, the Russians won WW2) and we can be great again. 

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Well, this one is based on a theory somewhat like King Canute's, that sheer will and self belief is enough. The same people advocating this are those who complain that the working class in this country are feckless and lazy. 

The Brexit campaign is just smoke and mirrors. At least be honest and say it is because you don't like the Germans and French instead of dressing up fantasy data in a pitiful attempt to draw a respectably facade over naked xenophobia.
		
Click to expand...

Again you make these stupid attacks out of blind ignorance.  What do you know about people like me and our feelings to Germans and French.  Personally I have nothing but a like and respect for them, that doesn't not mean I want a political arrangement between the UK and the EU though, that is a completely different situation which I am amazed you cannot understand.   I have lived and worked in Germany for many years and some of my very best friends are Germans, I  consider your comments as below contempt.

OK then, The Remain strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are European  dammit, Johnny British needs us more than we need him. We Lost two world wars and we can destroy our continent again.

King Canute was indeed a clever person and not the idiot people ignorant of history believe.  He made his gesture of commanding the tide to stay back and not swamp him to show that no one is superior to nature. To generalise that anyone who is in favour of Brexit also believes the whole Working class is feckless and lazy is a statement from  a rather xenophobic and confused mindset.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope still don't see what the problem is. I haven't made any personal remarks just stated that your "leave the Eu but do more international cooperation" plan is contradictory. Indeed, you are the only one who is making a personal attack.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you can point out where I have made a personal attack against you?


----------



## delc (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			One where we have no power of direction as it's undemocratically directed and is incapable of dealing with any kind of international issues.  Just look to the debacle that is taking place in the Mediterranean right now to see how ineffective the EU sloth is.   Regarding your dilemma I suggest you wait a little longer as if we Stay you will end up crying over 'spilt milk' if our opportunities to do something really great are lost.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you consider the EU to be undemocratic and the UK having no power of direction? We have the elected European Parliament and Councils of Ministers, where we have as much influence, probably more, than the other EU countries. The migrant crisis from the Middle-East was unforeseen, and largely caused by the interventions of George W Bush and Tony Blair a decade or so ago, which the EU in general wanted no part of. The 'war against terror' only produced some more extreme terrorists, as many in the Anti War Campaign warned at the time! You can't really blame these people for wanting to run away from Islamic State etc!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

delc said:



			Why do you consider the EU to be undemocratic and the UK having no power of direction? We have the elected European Parliament and Councils of Ministers, where we have as much influence, probably more, than the other EU countries. The migrant crisis from the Middle-East was unforeseen, and largely caused by the interventions of George W Bush and Tony Blair a decade or so ago, which the EU in general wanted no part of. The 'war against terror' only produced some more extreme terrorists, as many in the Anti War Campaign warned at the time! You can't really blame these people for wanting to run away from Islamic State etc!
		
Click to expand...

Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2016)

It really does not help the Leavers to continue to show/talk about the big number of Â£Â£ that goes to the EU every year.
We all know it is a false number, they are doing the 'tell a lie often enough and unwise people will start to believe it'.
A whole campaign built on a lie.

The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 5, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?
		
Click to expand...

This and , from what I can see, the fact we appear to pay more for the privilege of EU membership than any other country while getting less back is swaying me to the Leave side. The EU, as far as I can see, is going to become virtually a single nation. That's not what we voted for back in the 70's...and I don't want to part of a Federal Europe..

Both sides continue to spout their propaganda while, I suspect, the vast majority of people who will decide this referendum haven't got a clue as to the consequences, good or bad, of a decision either way because both sides are so wrapped up in fighting each other they've neglected to give the average Joe real information...
"House prices will rise if we leave/stay" - why..? Not saying they won't (they are anyway) but why...? Just blurting out sound bites doesn't inform, it deflects, it clouds the issue.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

The whole concept of decision-makers having to be elected - and if they make unpopular decisions, being kicked out by the electorate - is just a nonsense and has only happened in one 1 instance that I recall! Almost every law made in this country is made in a way that is only a little different to the way they are made by the EU!

And my question for the Brexitters is to name some laws that have been made by the EU that have not actually been agreed to in negotiations with the UK!

Btw. I'm a fan of the HoL, though there is definitely some dead wood in there - as there is in The Commons imo! Not only does the HoL provide a healthy sanity check that prevents truly daft legislation being passed, but the whole approach of that House is 'What will be good for the country over the long term' as opposed to the Commons (actually the unelected Cabinet!) approach of 'What will win us the next election'!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps worth noting that UKIP MEPs dominate the UK contribution to that body, so it's actually surprising that there's not a greater number of 'objections'! 

And, of course, those stats are completely 'out of context'! Without knowing what they are, I'd like to see the equivalent stats for other countries! I'm pretty certain they wouldn't actually be all that different - UKIP's anti-EU attitude considered!


----------



## delc (Jun 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It really does not help the Leavers to continue to show/talk about the big number of Â£Â£ that goes to the EU every year.
We all know it is a false number, they are doing the 'tell a lie often enough and unwise people will start to believe it'.
A whole campaign built on a lie.

The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Great Britain became Great by conquering and plundering an Empire right around the World. The Empire has now gone, so we can only make a living by trading. Potentially cutting ourselves off from a large bloc of trading nations within the EU seems a bit silly to me!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The whole concept of decision-makers having to be elected - and if they make unpopular decisions, being kicked out by the electorate - is just a nonsense and has only happened in one 1 instance that I recall! Almost every law made in this country is made in a way that is only a little different to the way they are made by the EU!
		
Click to expand...

If Gordon Brown had been a popular Prime Minister, and his party had been performing wonderfully well would he/they have been re-elected?

Every change of government from one party to another at election time clearly suggests that having made unpopular decisions/laws doesn't get you elected.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			If Gordon Brown had been a popular Prime Minister, and his party had been performing wonderfully well would he/they have been re-elected?

Every change of government from one party to another at election time clearly suggests that having made unpopular decisions/laws doesn't get you elected.
		
Click to expand...

You've just added to the examples of 'unelected' decision-makers!

Gordon Brown was NEVER actually elected (PM) was he!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps worth noting that UKIP MEPs dominate the UK contribution to that body, so it's actually surprising that there's not a greater number of 'objections'! 

And, of course, those stats are completely 'out of context'! Without knowing what they are, I'd like to see the equivalent stats for other countries! I'm pretty certain they wouldn't actually be all that different - UKIP's anti-EU attitude considered!
		
Click to expand...

I saw one report that said that the stats for Germany were similar to the UK or even slightly higher. For France the stats were way below ours but that was suggested to be because the French simply voted with the majority view most of the time.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I saw one report that said that the stats for Germany were similar to the UK or even slightly higher. For France the stats were way below ours but that was suggested to be because *the French simply voted with the majority view most of the time.*

Click to expand...

And in that wonderful French way, simply ignore (with a Gallic shrug) any laws that are inconvenient to them - until it becomes inconvenient to do so!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Gordon Brown was NEVER actually elected (PM) though was he!
		
Click to expand...

You're missing the point, as usual!!

Labour weren't re-elected because of their performance. Shocked! The decision makers weren't re-elected... kinda runs contrary to your post that decision makers having to be elected, or kicked out.

And if you add in votes of no confidence and govts only lasting a few months/years... decision makers are booted out and no re-elected.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps worth noting that UKIP MEPs dominate the UK contribution to that body, so it's actually surprising that there's not a greater number of 'objections'!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps also worth noting that there are 24 UKIP MEPs, 19 Tory MEPs, 20 Labour MEPs and 10 from other parties. So for the majority of our MEPs to oppose a motion it would require UKIP getting backing from at least some members of the Tory or Labour MEPs to get to a majority of at least 37 to oppose. So it's not all just down to UKIP.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2016)

Well I'm voting to stay in 

And the sooner the vote happens the better now - had enough of it all now , pathetic childish behaviour from both sides with zero facts given


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			pathetic childish behaviour from both sides with zero facts given
		
Click to expand...

Which is why I'm still on the fence, not been given a good enough argument to stay or leave.

Even when it seems someone is trying to be sensible the opposition slag them off.

Biggest issue for me is my sons future, if we leave, how long or how much heartache or irreversible damage could it cause.

Burying our heads in the sand is no good.

It'll never happen, but some guarantees we could hold both sides accountable to, if they get their way, would be nice,


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you can point out where I have made a personal attack against you?
		
Click to expand...

 You deflected my posts by falsely claiming I was insulting you and now you've twisted it full circle. And still without responding to my actual point. Bravo!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

David Cameron said Turkey will not become an EU member for decades. Yet Turkey were given 3 billion Euro's and all 28 EU member states, including the UK agree to granting visa free travel... It obviously doesn't need to be an EU member to get a handout and get visa free travel.

You couldn't make it up...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 5, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?
		
Click to expand...

Your normally much better than this, which made me look back to check I hadn't misread that graphic. We don't oppose 90% of proposals, far from it. Indeed turning it on its head slightly, we actually support 70% of them. Which, considering we are saddled with a large group of meps whose only purpose is to disrupt, seems like a pretty good number.

As I said before I bet the figures are similar for all countries across the parliament but nobody seems to have those numbers....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not if he says no more.   It's a bit like you jumping in with nothing to add but sarcasm, is that the way it works now.

PS.  Does the whistling smiley attempt to belittle me?  Not very clever, is it!
		
Click to expand...

That's a very clever response there  

By the way, ignore me and I will go away.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You're missing the point, as usual!!

Labour weren't re-elected because of their performance. Shocked! The decision makers weren't re-elected... kinda runs contrary to your post that decision makers having to be elected, or kicked out.

And if you add in votes of no confidence and govts only lasting a few months/years... decision makers are booted out and no re-elected.
		
Click to expand...

And you have clearly missed mine! 

Btw. While making unpopular laws/decisions etc might get a government kicked out, there's a lot more to it than that! 

Do you really think it credible that my MP, with a majority of over 22k (so polled nearly 4 times as much as the next candidate), is ever going to be removed for a bad/unpopular decision?


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 5, 2016)

Just watched this on the Marr show.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36454732

Another set of opinions from someone who knows a thing or two about the subject matter and despite me not being on the Tory side, someone I've always had a lot of respect for. Particularly like his reference to "trusting Gove, IDS and Boris with the NHS being akin to trusting a hungry Python with the pet hamster". Respect Sir John.

Just another informed opinion saying the Brexit case is deluded, based on misinformation, for it's supporters own ends and pandering to the worst traits in our great nation. I don't really know, none of us know the real extent to which this is true but I for one think this synopsis is nearer to the truth than much of what I've heard.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			And you have clearly missed mine! 

Btw. While making unpopular laws/decisions etc might get a government kicked out, there's a lot more to it than that! 

Do you really think it credible that my MP, with a majority of over 22k (so polled nearly 4 times as much as the next candidate), is ever going to be removed for a bad/unpopular decision?
		
Click to expand...

His constituency party could replace him as the official candidate at the next election.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Just watched this on the Marr show.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36454732

Another set of opinions from someone who knows a thing or two about the subject matter and despite me not being on the Tory side, someone I've always had a lot of respect for. Particularly like his reference to "trusting Gove, IDS and Boris with the NHS being akin to trusting a hungry Python with the pet hamster". Respect Sir John.

Just another informed opinion saying the Brexit case is deluded, based on misinformation, for it's supporters own ends and pandering to the worst traits in our great nation. I don't really know, none of us know the real extent to which this is true but I for one think this synopsis is nearer to the truth than much of what I've heard.
		
Click to expand...


I watched it and he was spitting his normal feathers and venom against anything Eurosceptic.  Just like Heseltine a yesterdays man who although passionate brings little worth to the debate.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's a very clever response there  

By the way, ignore me and I will go away.
		
Click to expand...

Grow up.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Your normally much better than this, which made me look back to check I hadn't misread that graphic. We don't oppose 90% of proposals, far from it. Indeed turning it on its head slightly, we actually support 70% of them. Which, considering we are saddled with a large group of meps whose only purpose is to disrupt, seems like a pretty good number.

As I said before I bet the figures are similar for all countries across the parliament but nobody seems to have those numbers....
		
Click to expand...

You're right. It would help if I'd read the graphic properly. Equally, 30% isn't a figure I'm happy with 5-10-15%, fine. 20% I'm uncomfortable with, and 30% is a no from me.

Of the 30% we've opposed we've lost over 90% of those. And unsurprisingly most of those revolve around budgets. If you were one of the 10 net contributors you wouldn't want to take up more as the UK paid less. And as a receiver you definitely wouldn't want to see the money you receive dropping.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I watched it and he was spitting his normal feathers and venom against anything Eurosceptic. Just like Heseltine a yesterdays man who although passionate brings little worth to the debate.
		
Click to expand...

Well, he brought a lot more to it than I've seen on here in 2000+ posts.

It's really just like the "Argument sketch" isn't it.......

The economy will dip......no it won't.
Trade will suffer......no it won't.
Jobs will suffer......no they won't.
It's a step into the unknown......no it isn't.

This is the whole substance of the Brexit case. Just deny the facts often enough and people will believe you. Meanwhile there's the (not very) thinly disguised xenophobia....the real undercurrent to all this. Always has been. At last the right wing of the Tory party have found a way to play the race card with some legitimacy (I say that because everyone recognises immigration is a big issue, and not just for the UK). I don't know which world you live in but in the one I inhabit the most fervent supporters of Brexit are the same people who think not showing Bernard Manning is political correctness gone mad. Backward thinking relics, "yesterdays men" you could say.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



*Im tempted to do my annual mass debate joke*, *but i've lost the will to live*

and we have another 19 days or so to put up with this and then the aftermath

give me strength
		
Click to expand...

Allow me then.  There's a lot of guff in this thread written by some right mass debaters. 

You're welcome....


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Well, he brought a lot more to it than I've seen on here in 2000+ posts.

It's really just like the "Argument sketch" isn't it.......

The economy will dip......no it won't.
Trade will suffer......no it won't.
Jobs will suffer......no they won't.
It's a step into the unknown......no it isn't.

This is the whole substance of the Brexit case. Just deny the facts often enough and people will believe you. Meanwhile there's the (not very) thinly disguised xenophobia....the real undercurrent to all this. Always has been. At last the right wing of the Tory party have found a way to play the race card with some legitimacy (I say that because everyone recognises immigration is a big issue, and not just for the UK). I don't know which world you live in but in the one I inhabit the most fervent supporters of Brexit are the same people who think not showing Bernard Manning is political correctness gone mad. Backward thinking relics, "yesterdays men" you could say.
		
Click to expand...

A rather odd reaction but I expect little else from the scare campaign.  Throw in the racist card and we are really scraping the barrel. Typical Remain balderdash.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A rather odd reaction but I expect little else from the scare campaign.  *Throw in the racist card and we are really scraping the barrel.* Typical Remain balderdash.
		
Click to expand...

That's been/being done by the Brexiters - with scares about immigration!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's been/being done by the Brexiters - with scares about immigration!
		
Click to expand...


Immigration concerns are not racist.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigration concerns are not racist.
		
Click to expand...

I think more accurately, immigration concerns are not *necessarily* racist but that is undoubtedly part of it for some.

I don't believe that to be your motivation, I hasten to add.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 5, 2016)

Just as an aside to the immigration points. I work with a Portuguese chap and he believes the UK should remain, mainly because of the trade arguments. But he understands the concerns we have with the burden immigration brings on the infrastructure. Apparently Portugal went through a similar situation 10 or so years back with massive immigration from eastern Europe, which has more or less stopped now as most are choosing the wealthier nations to head to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2016)

[video=youtube_share;0fXghjDVJV4]http://youtu.be/0fXghjDVJV4[/video]

Warning may contain colourful language


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's been/being done by the Brexiters - with scares about immigration!
		
Click to expand...

I agree their are concerns expressed by Brexit but in the main they are not racist  but numerical.


----------



## Leftie (Jun 5, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			The economy will dip......no it won't.
Trade will suffer......no it won't.
Jobs will suffer......no they won't.
It's a step into the unknown......no it isn't.
		
Click to expand...

From what I have read and heard, the Remainers mainly used words like "might" and "could" - rarely "will".  Why?  Because they just don't know.  If someone says that xyz might happen, then it also might not.


----------



## Leftie (Jun 5, 2016)

btw, has anyone else read this?

http://www.digbylordjones.com/why-i-am-voting-to-leave-the-eu.html


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

Now you're taking the pee. We've even got the EU debate on countryfile... give me a break!! Save it for the news and political programmes. Roll on June 24th


----------



## MarkE (Jun 5, 2016)

Leftie said:



			btw, has anyone else read this?

http://www.digbylordjones.com/why-i-am-voting-to-leave-the-eu.html

Click to expand...

That sums it all up nicely.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2016)

Leftie said:



			btw, has anyone else read this?

http://www.digbylordjones.com/why-i-am-voting-to-leave-the-eu.html

Click to expand...

Digby Jones lays out my feelings on EU membership much better and clearer than I can explain it.  His explanation should be the cornerstone of the Leave Campaign.   Brilliant.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2016)

"Italy sells â‚¬500 million worth of shoes to the UK every year; Germany sells us â‚¬16 billion worth of cars; the majority of the trains we use every day are built in DÃ¼sseldorf. If we left the EU, there would be a Free Trade Agreement in place in the morning..."


Taken from the link Digbylordjones. 

If the UK were to suffer trade restrictions, and decided to do likewise to the industries of the EU, what impact would that have on EU countries? Could they cope with not doing a trade deal with the UK, really?

As I read different topics in the article I'd Google the points, or points that occurred from extrapolating the topic. One that came to mind was where have the redundant workers from Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland emigrated to?

Its astounding to read how strong we are as an economy but, sadly, how much we've propped up the failing economies at our expense. We are the 5th largest economy yet so many aspects of UK living have taken serious hits in the last 5 years.

I want to be part of the (original) EU trading bloc, but why does that have to include so many aspects of law outside of trade? So many people shout about how EU laws protect us from crazy dictatorial Tory rule but how much Labour rule have we had in the last 45yrs, and what would happen at the next election if the Tories over stepped the mark with their rule?

Let's be honest here. The EU is a federal state. We have a 'town mayor' in David Cameron, but we're ruled from Brussels.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

BREXIT, the Movie:

[video=youtube;eYqzcqDtL3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k[/video]


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Now you're taking the pee. We've even got the EU debate on countryfile... give me a break!! Save it for the news and political programmes. Roll on June 24th
		
Click to expand...

Given that farmers are going to be the most affected, and probably the earliest to notice any change, it is pretty reasonable that thr topic is discussed on a programme about the countryside - irrespective of whether you actually believe the stories of thousands of farms becoming untenable!


----------



## Fish (Jun 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			BREXIT, the Movie:

[video=youtube;eYqzcqDtL3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, I was concerned it was just over an hour long, but what an eye opener and it kept me glued to it, no wonder some of the large corporate companies want to stay in, they don't want competition, it is, as they state, the big boys club, I found the Tate & Lyle story gobsmacking!

This really needs to be watched..


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 6, 2016)

I thought Gove acquitted himself very well on the recent debate on Sky News. If mentioning "take back control" a hundred times is some sort of brain washing technique then I have to say its working on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8D8AoC-5i8

Apparently latest poll now have the out camp 4 percentage points ahead.


----------



## delc (Jun 6, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			I thought Gove acquitted himself very well on the recent debate on Sky News. If mentioning "take back control" a hundred times is some sort of brain washing technique then I have to say its working on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8D8AoC-5i8

Apparently latest poll now have the out camp 4 percentage points ahead.
		
Click to expand...

When Gove says "Take back control" he means the Tories take back control and can then abolish European workers rights, etc!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

delc said:



			When Gove says "Take back control" he means the Tories take back control and can then abolish European workers rights, etc!
		
Click to expand...

What utter rubbish. 

Tories change worker's rights, workers go on strike. Tories don't get voted back in.

Typical scaremongering.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			BREXIT, the Movie:

[video=youtube;eYqzcqDtL3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Is it full of old fat white men saying we should leave by any chance???


----------



## Fish (Jun 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it full of old fat white men saying we should leave by any chance???
		
Click to expand...

Rather than ridicule something try watching it, you might learn something.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2016)

With the best will in the world, I can't make it through a 3 minute UKIP party political broadcast.  So call me narrow minded and not open to arguments on both sides, but at 80 minutes with a picture of Farage staring at me to entice me in, it ain't happening.


----------



## Fish (Jun 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the best will in the world, I can't make it through a 3 minute UKIP party political broadcast.  So call me narrow minded and not open to arguments on both sides, but at 80 minute, it ain't happening.
		
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with UKIP or even Nigel, I'm not sure why he's on the front picture TBH, he only features twice and for less than a few seconds!

So yes, your assumption to judge rather than be open is very narrow minded!


----------



## delc (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			What utter rubbish. 

Tories change worker's rights, workers go on strike. Tories don't get voted back in.

Typical scaremongering.
		
Click to expand...

I should say that I am generally a supporter of the Conservative Party, and was a Young Conservative, but I really don't trust hard right wingers like Michael Gove. The party was much more moderate in my YC days.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the best will in the world, I can't make it through a 3 minute UKIP party political broadcast.  So call me narrow minded and not open to arguments on both sides, but at 80 minutes with a picture of Farage staring at me to entice me in, it ain't happening.
		
Click to expand...

There is only a short clip of Farage and it's not a UKIP film.   Don't watch it but also don't complain that Brexit  have a poor case for leave.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			What utter rubbish. 

Tories change worker's rights, workers go on strike. Tories don't get voted back in.

Typical scaremongering.
		
Click to expand...

How many non-public sector workers would still have a job if they went out on strike?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

When is a Brexit not a Brexit? 

When pro Remain MPs are looking at the possibility of using their Commons majority to keep Britain in the single market in the event of a Leave vote.

There's a story about it on the BBC news site (sorry on my Kindle so can't post the link) saying that it means we would still have open borders and free movement within the EU and would still have to pay towards the EU.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2016)

If Carlsberg did referendums...........poll of polls has it 50/50 ATM.........and then on voting day the Scottish votes just carry the day for the stayers.

The seethe would be superb.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Carlsberg did referendums...........poll of polls has it 50/50 ATM.........and then on voting day the Scottish votes just carry the day for the stayers.

The seethe would be superb.
		
Click to expand...

Are these the same pollsters that had Labour ahead of Conservative in the last election and Yes ahead of No in the Scottish referendum? I have no idea which way the vote will go but I certainly won't be looking at the polls to try to work it out.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			When is a Brexit not a Brexit? 

When pro Remain MPs are looking at the possibility of using their Commons majority to keep Britain in the single market in the event of a Leave vote.

There's a story about it on the BBC news site (sorry on my Kindle so can't post the link) saying that it means we would still have open borders and free movement within the EU and would still have to pay towards the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Thing that gets me is that despite decades of desires, the time of the Leave campaign has come and there is no consensus on their alternative vision.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			When is a Brexit not a Brexit? 

When pro Remain MPs are looking at the possibility of using their Commons majority to keep Britain in the single market in the event of a Leave vote.

There's a story about it on the BBC news site (sorry on my Kindle so can't post the link) saying that it means we would still have open borders and free movement within the EU and would still have to pay towards the EU.
		
Click to expand...

How can anyone say what will be agreed after a Brexit.  Norway has Free Movement and make voluntary payments to some eastern european nations.   Many Many countries trade with the EU and don't have freedom of movement agreements.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Thing that gets me is that despite decades of desires, the time of the Leave campaign has come and there is no consensus on their alternative vision.
		
Click to expand...

How can there be!  Until we actually leave we cannot start negotiations with the EU.   There has been much talk on the things Leave dont like now and what they would like in their place, Points Based Immigration for example.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

There can be consensus amongst leavers with regards to the type of relationship they would like to see.

As today's report points out, leaving the EU but joining the single market would still leave us liable to uncontrolled immigration and paying into the EU - but with less say than we have now. As far as I can tell it wouldn't bring much benefit for a whole heap of pain.

Ultimately this is probably why an issue such as this should be decided via a general election rather than a referendum. The majority of those advocating to leave won't have any say in future negotiations with the EU. A real fustercluck of a situation to be honest.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...ntolerant-too-say-young-voters-20151012102823


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Carlsberg did referendums...........poll of polls has it 50/50 ATM.........and then on voting day the Scottish votes just carry the day for the stayers.

The seethe would be superb.
		
Click to expand...

If Carlsberg did referendums....... Scotland vote to Remain in the EU in this referendum. A few years down the line Scotland get a another referendum and votes for independence. Scotland leaves the UK and has to apply to join the EU. The UK which is only still in the EU because of how Scotland voted vetoes their application.

The seethe would be superb.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			If Carlsberg did referendums....... Scotland vote to Remain in the EU in this referendum. A few years down the line Scotland get a another referendum and votes for independence. Scotland leaves the UK and has to apply to join the EU. The UK which is only still in the EU because of how Scotland voted vetoes their application.

The seethe would be superb.
		
Click to expand...

You just defeated your own very strange argument. 
Under your scenario that would prompt a mass exodus of Mad Kippers, City 'Merchant Bankers', and Con Club members to Scotland


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			How can there be!  Until we actually leave we cannot start negotiations with the EU.   There has been much talk on the things Leave dont like now and what they would like in their place, Points Based Immigration for example.
		
Click to expand...

Points based immigration is how non-EU immigration is 'managed' now! Anyone who thinks it 'needs to be introduced' is clerly out of touch, as it was phased in from 2008 to 2010!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

Non-EU immigration is actually slightly more than EU immigration!

Here's an Indy article 'debunking' some of the myths about immigration!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...es-show-fall-in-non-eu-arrivals-a6895341.html


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Points based immigration is how non-EU immigration is 'managed' now! Anyone who thinks it 'needs to be introduced' is clerly out of touch, as it was phased in from 2008 to 2010!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

Non-EU immigration is actually slightly more than EU immigration!

Here's an Indy article 'debunking' some of the myths about immigration!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...es-show-fall-in-non-eu-arrivals-a6895341.html

Click to expand...

I din't want to get into a debate on the pros and cons of points based systems. My answer was related to a point that suggested 'Stay' had not said what policies they wanted.  However a points based system is exactly that and can be used to supply suitable immigrants and numbers.  These numbers can of course be high if that's what is required but the important point is the country sets the numbers and grades.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			When is a Brexit not a Brexit? 

When pro Remain MPs are looking at the possibility of using their Commons majority to keep Britain in the single market in the event of a Leave vote.

There's a story about it on the BBC news site (sorry on my Kindle so can't post the link) saying that it means we would still have open borders and free movement within the EU and would still have to pay towards the EU.
		
Click to expand...

TBH, if it is a vote to Leave, I am expecting this to happen.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, if it is a vote to Leave, I am expecting this to happen.
		
Click to expand...

I could easily see this happening as well. Which kind of shoots down the Leave campaign claims of reducing immigration. But equally shoots down the Remain claims of leaving being a disaster for trade and the economy.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 6, 2016)

In the event of a vote to exit... 
Can't see this government putting the wishes of the electorate ahead of their mates in business...
Don't exactly have a record of doing so...

And, sadly, due to current state of the opposition they'll be put back in at the next GE...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I could easily see this happening as well. Which kind of shoots down the Leave campaign claims of reducing immigration. But equally shoots down the Remain claims of leaving being a disaster for trade and the economy.
		
Click to expand...

I don't follow you there.  If the MP's ignore the outcome of the Referendum and keep us in the EU how does that shoot down the Leaves campaign to reduce immigration?  Surely it would make their position null in void.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

Not keeping us in the EU... keeping us in the single market, with the associated free movement of people and EU fees.

So not in the EU, but still with two of the three main issues that leave campaigners have cited.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not keeping us in the EU... keeping us in the single market, with the associated free movement of people and EU fees.

So not in the EU, but still with two of the three main issues that leave campaigners have cited.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe it would be necessary for us to have these rules to have access to the Market.  Many countries trade with the EU and don't have to agree to free movement or pay anything into the budget.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Not keeping us in the EU... keeping us in the single market, with the associated free movement of people and EU fees.

So not in the EU, but still with two of the three main issues that leave campaigners have cited.
		
Click to expand...

Norway's contribution to the EU, for access in four specific market areas, is â‚¬884million. An awful lot less than the UK's, which is the spin a Leaver would put on it. I'd be interested to know the value of Norway's exports to the EU compared to ours.

Norway have also, as you highlighted, had to agree to free movement of people. Quite what that means in terms of non-EU citizens travelling from an EU country I don't know but, again, it would be nice to know.

However, what's to say an exited UK wouldn't argue for different terms... crystal ball time?


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

Of course a UK negotiation would be unique, but it seems logical that terms would be less favourable than now. 

Perhaps MPs would seek access to the single market in order to mitigate the damage to businesses and the economy.

Who knows - and that's part of the problem. There is no manifesto, or consensus, for leave. And for such a defining decision, it seems there really ought to be.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course a UK negotiation would be unique, but it seems logical that terms would be less favourable than now. 

Perhaps MPs would seek access to the single market in order to mitigate the damage to businesses and the economy.

Who knows - and that's part of the problem. There is no manifesto, or consensus, for leave. And for such a defining decision, it seems there really ought to be.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. But, equally, I think the terms brought back by David Cameron, bearing in mind they still have to be ratified by the other member states, are not what he set out to get. And in a public statement he did say if he didn't get them he would be supporting out.

Merkel jumped all over the last sticking point at the 11th hour.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

Haven't heard the renegotiations mentioned much in the debate, probably goes to show they're fairly immaterial in the bigger picture.

And I think in his usual slippery ways, DC never actually said he would back out if he didn't get his negotiations!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Haven't heard the renegotiations mentioned much in the debate, probably goes to show they're fairly immaterial in the bigger picture.

And I think in his usual slippery ways, DC never actually said he would back out if he didn't get his negotiations!
		
Click to expand...

He made the statement on November 7th 2015, in which he said if he doesn't get what he wants at the negotiations for better terms he will recommend out. 

He didn't get what he went for. But he was hardly likely to really.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

A comment on the football thread got me thinking.............The figures for immigrants contributing more in taxes than they take out must include footballers (and other professional sportsmen and women). A single footballer on Â£150k per week will be paying over Â£60k per week in taxes  just on his wages and that's without tax on image rights or sponsorship deals. That would cover the costs for a lot of immigrants taking money out of the system.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			A comment on the football thread got me thinking.............The figures for immigrants contributing more in taxes than they take out must include footballers (and other professional sportsmen and women). A single footballer on Â£150k per week will be paying over Â£60k per week in taxes  just on his wages and that's without tax on image rights or sponsorship deals. That would cover the costs for a lot of immigrants taking money out of the system.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of footballers, Rooney included, register the image rights through a tax haven and pay zero tax.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A lot of footballers, Rooney included, register the image rights through a tax haven and pay zero tax.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of footballers transfer their image rights to a limited company and pay corporation tax on it at 21%. In your example they still end up paying tax if they are a UK resident when they withdraw the money. It is a good set up for overseas players as they can avoid being taxed by leaving the money until they leave the UK.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			He made the statement on November 7th 2015, in which he said if he doesn't get what he wants at the negotiations for better terms he will recommend out.
		
Click to expand...

Got a link out of interest?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Got a link out of interest?
		
Click to expand...

It was all over the news but I doubt if he will be willing to admit it.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Got a link out of interest?
		
Click to expand...

It (re) Googled it and found it in a article in the Guardian. I originally remembered it being on the BBC News


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Norway's contribution to the EU, for access in four specific market areas, is â‚¬884million. An awful lot less than the UK's, which is the spin a Leaver would put on it. I'd be interested to know the value of Norway's exports to the EU compared to ours.

Norway have also, as you highlighted, had to agree to free movement of people. Quite what that means in terms of non-EU citizens travelling from an EU country I don't know but, again, it would be nice to know.

However, what's to say an exited UK wouldn't argue for different terms... crystal ball time?
		
Click to expand...

Here's the views of a Norwegian who probably knows a lot more about the in-depth details!

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...an-ex-eu-adviser-i-can-tell-you-a7060976.html


----------



## chrisd (Jun 6, 2016)

Just watching Andrew Neil making mincemeat of Hilary Benn from the in campaign. He is moving his mouth like a fish out of water

It's hilarylarious!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			A comment on the football thread got me thinking.............The figures for immigrants contributing more in taxes than they take out must include footballers (and other professional sportsmen and women). A single footballer on Â£150k per week will be paying over Â£60k per week in taxes  just on his wages and that's without tax on image rights or sponsorship deals. That would cover the costs for a lot of immigrants taking money out of the system.
		
Click to expand...

I dont believe the claim that immigrants pay in more than they take out, thats a very naive and misleading claim and peddled by the rich and the silly idealistic left wing.   If you look at immigrants over a very short time frame they pay a very small amount in due to many being young and single, as they stay they start to have families, get ill, their kids go to school, they claim tax credits and family allowance, get old and claim pensions etc.  Over a longer frame they cost a great deal of money.   The other point that seems to be missed is how high populations put countries under great stress as they create competition for scarce resources, how do we create enough electricity for example with a population growing at a million people every three years, we are looking at the lights going out in the near future anyway due to the stupid closures of power stations, just imagine how this will be when we reach 80 million.   I wont rant on about the NHS, schools, housing and infrastructure as the strain on these is undeniable.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 6, 2016)

Yes how wonderful that the working immigrants are paying taxes from doing jobs that lazy feckless Brits should be doing. If the immigrants weren't here then the Brit would be doing that job and paying the taxes instead.

Oh.....and we would then be saving on the benefits they were claiming as well.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes how wonderful that the working immigrants are paying taxes from doing jobs that lazy feckless Brits should be doing. If the immigrants weren't here then the Brit would be doing that job and paying the taxes instead.

Oh.....and we would then be saving on the benefits they were claiming as well.
		
Click to expand...

Another complete scare story poo-poo-ed by almost every analysis undertaken!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-about-immigration-to-an-expert-10427400.html


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes how wonderful that the working immigrants are paying taxes from doing jobs that lazy feckless Brits should be doing. If the immigrants weren't here then the Brit would be doing that job and paying the taxes instead.

Oh.....and we would then be saving on the benefits they were claiming as well.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. If only these lazy feckless Brits could be banging in 20 goals a season for Chelsea (insert any other club to avoid accusations of being biased) then we wouldn't have any problems in our country. :thup:


----------



## gmc40 (Jun 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont believe the claim that immigrants pay in more than they take out, thats a very naive and misleading claim and peddled by the rich and the silly idealistic left wing.   If you look at immigrants over a very short time frame they pay a very small amount in due to many being young and single, as they stay they start to have families, get ill, their kids go to school, they claim tax credits and family allowance, get old and claim pensions etc.  Over a longer frame they cost a great deal of money.
		
Click to expand...

So exactly the same as young Brits then? Not sure how you can say they only pay a very small amount? Some get more back than they put in (Brits and EU Migrants), the majority don't. That's the way the system works.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2016)

gmc40 said:



			So exactly the same as young Brits then? Not sure how you can say they only pay a very small amount? Some get more back than they put in (Brits and EU Migrants), the majority don't. That's the way the system works.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, the same counts for Brits, thats how our country has managed to build up a Â£1.5 Trillion national debt.  The point is that immigrants create exactly the same debt, they are not all pilling in excess money that we have to spend on improving the country.   You are wrong, most do cost more than they put in just as the people here already do, all immigration does is delay the day when we will be forced to take out no more than we put in.


----------



## gmc40 (Jun 7, 2016)

H



SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely, the same counts for Brits, thats how our country has managed to build up a Â£1.5 Trillion national debt.  The point is that immigrants create exactly the same debt, they are not all pilling in excess money that we have to spend on improving the country.   You are wrong, most do cost more than they put in just as the people here already do, all immigration does is delay the day when we will be forced to take out no more than we put in.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not wrong. You have no evidence that they take out more than they put in other than your assumptions and generalisations.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely, the same counts for Brits, thats how our country has managed to build up a Â£1.5 Trillion national debt.  The point is that immigrants create exactly the same debt, they are not all pilling in excess money that we have to spend on improving the country.   You are wrong, most do cost more than they put in just as the people here already do, all immigration does is delay the day when we will be forced to take out no more than we put in.
		
Click to expand...

Well it's taken a couple of months but I finally think I understand where you're coming from.... Not sure either way if you're right.

Basically, a large number of immigrants come in with poor qualifications and end up at the lower end of the jobs market, meaning they're on or about minimum wage. That nets the Treasury about Â£1800 a year. If they are over 25 yrs of age, irrespective of having children, they get a tax credit of Â£1960. That means they pay no tax, only the NI. And they can earn a further Â£150+ a month in overtime or second job before they'll pay tax.

Putting the usual spin on it X many immigrants, on minimum wage, are all paying Â£1800 a year. That's a huge gain for the Treasury, which is the spin, until you take into account the tax credits. 

No doubt there are other benefits, like housing allowance... But then there's the UK infrastructure to pay for, NHS, education etc.

Don't know whether it is a win or lose to the economy.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 7, 2016)

Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest?? 

I found Michael Gove's debating skills very interesting..  he is a keen debater (if that is a word).  If he had some good facts to back things up then it would have been a compelling argument.  If he was arguing the case for Remain, you could see how good that argument would have been.

On another note, i like the concept of him and Boris saying we can allow more Indians and Chinese skilled workers if we exit. I am not sure if they read the memo that it is *their *govt which is *not allowing* Indian and Chinese skilled workers in the first place!!  Of those who are here, it is *their govt* that is now going to force thousands of *existing* NHS nurses to leave the UK because they dont meet the salary requirement under the point based system.  Again ironically, it is *they* who indirectly set the salary bands for the NHS nurses in the first place.  But lets not facts ruin a good story/fantasy/myth from the Brexit camp.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



*Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest?? *

Click to expand...

Thats a rather stupid comment for an educated person.  I am far from being the only person on here that favours Brexit.  Also, as this is a debating Forum is it a problem to you if I take an active part?   Or, as I suspect my opinion differs from yours and if I was posting in favour of 'Remain' you would think it OK!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

gmc40 said:



			H

I'm not wrong. You have no evidence that they take out more than they put in other than your assumptions and generalisations.
		
Click to expand...

If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html


----------



## Ethan (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont believe the claim that immigrants pay in more than they take out, thats a very naive and misleading claim and peddled by the rich and the silly idealistic left wing.   If you look at immigrants over a very short time frame they pay a very small amount in due to many being young and single, as they stay they start to have families, get ill, their kids go to school, they claim tax credits and family allowance, get old and claim pensions etc.  Over a longer frame they cost a great deal of money.   The other point that seems to be missed is how high populations put countries under great stress as they create competition for scarce resources, how do we create enough electricity for example with a population growing at a million people every three years, we are looking at the lights going out in the near future anyway due to the stupid closures of power stations, just imagine how this will be when we reach 80 million.   I wont rant on about the NHS, schools, housing and infrastructure as the strain on these is undeniable.
		
Click to expand...

Wow. Even by your standards that is an incoherent and pitiful argument. One of the fundamental components of economics is the concept that benefits (in a non welfare state sense) now with costs later is a good thing. The economies of every western state whether in the EU or not depend on this and push costs further down the line. That immigrants get older dors not negate the benefits of having them now. The changing demographics of the U.K. demand that more younger people of working age come in in order to balance the increasing number of non working oldies. This problem is going to get worse due to erosion of pensions for these oldies with less tax and more state support needed for them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Wow. Even by your standards that is an incoherent and pitiful argument. One of the fundamental components of economics is the concept that benefits (in a non welfare state sense) now with costs later is a good thing. The economies of every western state whether in the EU or not depend on this and push costs further down the line. That immigrants get older dors not negate the benefits of having them now. The changing demographics of the U.K. demand that more younger people of working age come in in order to balance the increasing number of non working oldies. This problem is going to get worse due to erosion of pensions for these oldies with less tax and more state support needed for them.
		
Click to expand...

OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net  benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment.   I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net  benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment.   I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.
		
Click to expand...

is Â£20bn sizeable? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			is Â£20bn sizeable? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

Click to expand...

I asked it to be backed up with facts and data,
Show me how long term immigrants make a long term positive contribution to the countries finances..  You will see if you take a little time to check they make the same negative contributions as native Bits.  Take a look at the link I posted and how immigrants begin to cost more over the long term and how non eu immigrants are even worse.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a rather stupid comment for an educated person.  I am far from being the only person on here that favours Brexit.  Also, as this is a debating Forum is it a problem to you if I take an active part?   Or, as I suspect my opinion differs from yours and if I was posting in favour of 'Remain' you would think it OK!
		
Click to expand...

SR,.  i have no problem with your views, opinions or which way you lean on this debate.  It is a debating forumn so see no issues with it. I visit this thread every couple of days and I see the same old debate doing the rounds and you are holding the charge for the remainers.  You are my personal Boris


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked it to be backed up with facts and data,
Show me how long term immigrants make a long term positive contribution to the countries finances..  You will see if you take a little time to check they make the same negative contributions as native Bits.  Take a look at the link I posted and how immigrants begin to cost more over the long term and how non eu immigrants are even worse.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on, your specific question was "OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term"

Pretty sure my link does that. Any reason that it doesn't?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

Click to expand...

Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?! 

Seems another case of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (Charts) or added 'fudge factor!' to me! And I'd also challenge (both sides) as to why the particular choice of dates - 2001 for the report and 1995 for the rebuttal! Actually, I can hazard a guess at why 1995 was chosen, as that appears to have some pretty bad numbers! It wasn't actually 'the best of times' from my memory!


----------



## Ethan (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net  benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment.   I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.
		
Click to expand...

Facts. Oh dear, the irony. Tell me why what I said above was wrong, and why it was, no doubt, left-leaning and arrogant. 

Meantime take a look at the well known leftie organ The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

See also (for a general discussion), an article on US immigration by the conservative think-tank  The Manhattan Institute. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/economic-benefits-immigration-5712.html


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 7, 2016)

I am now even more confused. Are we saying the country would be more economically successful if nobody lived here?

In all seriousness I think the free movement of people is a great thing. Our European friends and neighbours can come and work here and we can go and do likewise in their countries. What's not to like?


----------



## vkurup (Jun 7, 2016)

In other news..  This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..  
From the Facebook post>>
_Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this â€ª#â€ŽBenefitsMumâ€¬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled â€œBritainâ€™s most shameless mumâ€ and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on Â£7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesnâ€™t care if people label her a â€œscroungerâ€, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.
_

Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit.  If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?


----------



## Ethan (Jun 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			In other news..  This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..  
From the Facebook post>>
_Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this â€ª#â€ŽBenefitsMumâ€¬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled â€œBritainâ€™s most shameless mumâ€ and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on Â£7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesnâ€™t care if people label her a â€œscroungerâ€, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.
_

Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit.  If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?
		
Click to expand...

Did you not get the memo? 

In EU debates, people like her are British workers, capable of overcoming the challenges of a shrinking world, and will make the UK great again after leaving the constraints of the EU super-state.

After the EU debate, she will be a feckless drain on resources driving the world ever faster over the cliff-edge of the over-population apocalypse.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?
		
Click to expand...

I think you're looking at the non EU immigrants line on the graph. Helpfully they swapped the colours for the EU and non EU immigrants between the graph and cumulative totals.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			In other news..  This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..  
From the Facebook post>>
_Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this â€ª#â€ŽBenefitsMumâ€¬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled â€œBritainâ€™s most shameless mumâ€ and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on Â£7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesnâ€™t care if people label her a â€œscroungerâ€, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.
_

Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit.  If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?
		
Click to expand...

This is a seperate issue in itself that spineless politicians have promised to cure for years but done nothing about.

Being unemployed is now a career path due to our ridiculous benefits system.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I am now even more confused. Are we saying the country would be more economically successful if nobody lived here?

In all seriousness I think the free movement of people is a great thing. Our European friends and neighbours can come and work here and we can go and do likewise in their countries. What's not to like?
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you if the Government used the additional tax resources from immigrants to fund additional services / housing / transport etc.

Unfortunately a surge in immigration has coincided with the austerity years, so it's no wonder that immigrants come in for a hard time.

London and the south east is a world away from Scotland, where emigration is more of an issue as I understand!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think you're looking at the non EU immigrants line on the graph. Helpfully they swapped the colours for the EU and non EU immigrants between the graph and cumulative totals.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:  So they did, the sneaky devils!

That, of course, means that Socket's statement that 'they make the same negative contribution as Bits' is clearly wrong - at least according to that chart! Except for the first few years (h'mm!), the 'European' values are always above the 'British born' ones!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			London and the south east is a world away from Scotland, where emigration is more of an issue as I understand!
		
Click to expand...

Indeed there has long been an exodus from Scotland to the bright lights of London so it's not just immigration raising the demand for services down there. The only viable long term solution is to spread the wealth around the country such that Brits aren't necessarily drawn to London to progress their careers and that immigrants settle in a more distributed fashion around the country....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2016)

[Pinched from the footy site]

Leave leaders say there is still 20 million days left to vote.:lol:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2016)

I think it is disgraceful that the government are pouring millions of tax payers money into getting the young people to register through methods such as social media.  I do not pay my taxes for it to be spent on silly campaigns on Facebook and Twitter and for getting young people involved in democracy. 

It is obvious why they are doing this as young people will on average vote to stay in.  So why are they not promoting 'registering to vote' in other places which I daresay will be more favourable to a leave vote?  Such as UKIP HQ, The Daily Mail, Greggs the bakers, old people's homes and golf clubhouses?

Yet another indication of how this vote is being fixed by the government.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed there has long been an exodus from Scotland to the bright lights of London so it's not just immigration raising the demand for services down there. The only viable long term solution is to spread the wealth around the country such that Brits aren't necessarily drawn to London to progress their careers and that immigrants settle in a more distributed fashion around the country....
		
Click to expand...

Careful, you'll have Doon promoting the benefits of a Preston based Government base. Last thing we need up here is a load of scrounging, work shy, ridiculously entitled upstarts moving in.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it is disgraceful that the government are pouring millions of tax payers money into getting the young people to register through methods such as social media.  I do not pay my taxes for it to be spent on silly campaigns on Facebook and Twitter and for getting young people involved in democracy. 

It is obvious why they are doing this as young people will on average vote to stay in.  So why are they not promoting 'registering to vote' in other places which I daresay will be more favourable to a leave vote?  Such as UKIP HQ, The Daily Mail, Greggs the bakers, old people's homes and golf clubhouses?

Yet another indication of how this vote is being fixed by the government.
		
Click to expand...


Posting on twitter and Facebook is free so unless they are paying extra to advertise this should cost nothing more than time to post. Cheaper than old fashioned methods of promotion. I understand your point but frankly I suspect most people over a certain age will already be on the electoral register so the fact they are not seeing the relevant tweets is not an issue.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Facts. Oh dear, the irony. Tell me why what I said above was wrong, and why it was, no doubt, left-leaning and arrogant. 

Meantime take a look at the well known leftie organ The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

See also (for a general discussion), an article on US immigration by the conservative think-tank  The Manhattan Institute. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/economic-benefits-immigration-5712.html

Click to expand...

That article works on the basis that EU immigrants will return home in their less productive years.   That's an absurd suggestion, why would they return home to be poorer.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			In other news..  This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..  
From the Facebook post>>
_Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this â€ª#â€ŽBenefitsMumâ€¬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled â€œBritainâ€™s most shameless mumâ€ and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on Â£7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesnâ€™t care if people label her a â€œscroungerâ€, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.
_

Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit.  If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?
		
Click to expand...

Who exactly endorses this feckless lifestyle and suggest her actions are acceptable? I certainly don't but it's a separate issue so why are you bringing it to this debate?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?! 

Seems another case of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (Charts) or added 'fudge factor!' to me! And I'd also challenge (both sides) as to why the particular choice of dates - 2001 for the report and 1995 for the rebuttal! Actually, I can hazard a guess at why 1995 was chosen, as that appears to have some pretty bad numbers! It wasn't actually 'the best of times' from my memory!
		
Click to expand...

It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time.  All three line become negative.   OK EU immigrants don'y make the biggest drain but my point is not about that, it's that immigrants and all groups do not make a positive contribution over the long term.     They do make a contribution over a short term period but it contributes very little to the population as a whole.   So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time.  All three line become negative.   OK EU immigrants don'y make the biggest drain but my point is not about that, it's that immigrants and all groups do not make a positive contribution over the long term.     They do make a contribution over a short term period but it contributes very little to the population as a whole.   So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.
		
Click to expand...

But it satisfies the short term need for money, just as PFI satisfied the short term NHS need to build hospitals, and the raid on pension funds satisfied Gordon Brown's short term need to buy Labour votes.

None of the above fixes a problem, but it does stick an Elastoplast on it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But it satisfies the short term need for money, just as PFI satisfied the short term NHS need to build hospitals, and the raid on pension funds satisfied Gordon Brown's short term need to buy Labour votes.

None of the above fixes a problem, but it does stick an Elastoplast on it.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that.  My point was to counter those that suggest immigration is an ongoing major benefit to the economy by stating they pay in more than they take out. This is correct in the short term but has penalties in the long.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with that.  My point was to counter those that suggest immigration is an ongoing major benefit to the economy by stating they pay in more than they take out. This is correct in the short term but has penalties in the long.
		
Click to expand...

But, and I hate to go back over old ground, that's exactly what some of us have been saying about immigration for some years. The boom in immigration has bolstered the miserly birth rate of this country, thus providing a short term solution to the ever expanding crisis that is the Pension system. More paying in than drawing out.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That article works on the basis that EU immigrants will return home in their less productive years.   That's an absurd suggestion, why would they return home to be poorer.
		
Click to expand...

Have you any data to support that assertion? 

Recent history shows that many do return home.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Have you any data to support that assertion? 

Recent history shows that many do return home.
		
Click to expand...

I asked the question: "Why would they return home to be poorer"  the question was framed as the assertion that they did was illogical.  it's not up to a questioner to provide the answer, maybe you have some data to support your reply?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			But, and I hate to go back over old ground, that's exactly what some of us have been saying about immigration for some years. The boom in immigration has bolstered the miserly birth rate of this country, thus providing a short term solution to the ever expanding crisis that is the Pension system. More paying in than drawing out.
		
Click to expand...

But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future.   There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, families taking more responsibility, using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time.  All three line become negative.....
		
Click to expand...

No it doesn't! It merely shows that it varies!



SocketRocket said:



			...So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe the argument was actually about this! It certainly can - and has - increase GDP, which is one measure of a nation's wealth! And one that has been consistently used by Brexitters as an indication that UK will prosper without EU migrants!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			No it doesn't! It merely shows that it varies!



I don't believe the argument was actually about this! It certainly can - and has - increase GDP, which is one measure of a nation's wealth! And one that has been consistently used by Brexitters as an indication that UK will prosper without EU migrants!
		
Click to expand...

Yes it does.  Just look at the trend lines over the period.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future.   There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, families taking more responsibility, using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.
		
Click to expand...

I have chatted to quite a few Eastern European hotel staff working in the UK..
Nearly all want to work hard for 3-4 years to earn/save enough to buy a house back home and return. 
Very few wished to stay in the UK


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 7, 2016)

Can someone remind me again what point the "Leave" campaign dropped the facade it's not all about immigration?


----------



## jp5 (Jun 7, 2016)

Gove barely mentioned immigration the other day in his TV programme to be fair.


----------



## gmc40 (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

Click to expand...

I was referring to EU migrants as that what this discussion is about. Your post has proved my point and saves me having to look for a link after a hard days work. Cheers


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes it does.  Just look at the trend lines over the period.
		
Click to expand...

You carry on believing that then!

To me, all it shows is that the 'contribution rates' vary in line with the economy! That's no surprise! 

Oh! And that EU Immigrants 'perform' better than either natives or non-EU immigrants (not really all that muchof a surprise to me either!)!

Though where the Torygraph got pre-2001 figures from, I have no idea. The actual report (I believe it's the one Ethan showed the link to the Economics Jounal, but is certainly this one http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) and states why only the 2001 onward data should be used!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 7, 2016)

Was always going to end up all about immigration as an unfortunate 'many' in today's UK have such over-inflated feelings of entitlement that they have to find a scapegoat for their resentments, frustrations and anger, rather than look to and at themselves and their own (indigenous) communities.  There are many who can frame a coherent and cogent argument for Leaving the EU - however I fear that the majority who will vote Leave will simply do so out of resentment.  And their resentments and anger will continue when they find that Leaving wasn't the answer to their problems.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You carry on believing that then!

To me, all it shows is that the 'contribution rates' vary in line with the economy! That's no surprise! 

Oh! And that EU Immigrants 'perform' better than either natives or non-EU immigrants (not really all that muchof a surprise to me either!)!

Though where the Torygraph got pre-2001 figures from, I have no idea. The actual report (I believe it's the one Ethan showed the link to the Economics Jounal, but is certainly this one http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) and states why only the 2001 onward data should be used!
		
Click to expand...

You dont seem to get it.  If you looked at immigration costs over a period the longer you look the more they cost until they get to the same cost as the Native Brits.  They don't stay new immigrants for ever, they eventually have the same entitlement values and expect the state to subsidise their lifestyles.   The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer, they are not lazier than EU people they have just normalised themselves to the wishy washy liberal way the UK has made people less responsible for their own life.  Your comment that they perform better than natives or non-eu immigrants supports this fact.

I would add that hardly anyone is suggesting we stop immigration, that would be stupid, we just need to encourage people that we need to fill jobs that cannot be filled by those already here.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Can someone remind me again what point the "Leave" campaign dropped the facade it's not all about immigration?
		
Click to expand...

Thats a rather silly comment.  Immigration is a huge factor to many people in this referendum and why not!   It seems from Cameron it's also about starting wars, putting bombs under the economy, throwing us all on the dole, migrant camps along the south coast, keeping us nice and safe from terrorism, not being able to buy a new BMW and having a few million pounds to buy a euro


----------



## IanM (Jun 7, 2016)

I am an avid "Leave" person....  and my grand mother was Polish and my grandfather Lithuanian!  Keeping it factual and objective (as far as it possible) I think...

1) The excellent ideals of "free trade" have been sacrificed for increasing Federalism, without asking the electorate.   (Some say that was always the intension, but who knows)
2) The single currency is dangerous with such diversity of economies... e.g. Germany and Greece being having same exchange rates and interest rates is daft (and isn't working)  Greece and Italy were no where near meeting the criteria set for joining - so why were they allowed in?  (This is killing Greece at the moment)
3) The Commissioners and Presidents of various bodies are responsible for most of UK laws now... we didn't vote them in and we cant vote them out.  That's not acceptable to me.
4) Immigration.  Time for a grown up conversation.  Minimum wage/wages in general here are miles higher than all of the Eastern European States.  Hence they are here in numbers!  And good luck to them too...we'd all do the same if places were reversed (Remember the 80s TV "Auf Wiedersehen Pet"  ...the brickies went in search of work)  But, as we do not have a surplus of jobs and services in the UK (and haven't since the 60s!) ...  what is the effect?  You cant add people to an existing queue without the queue getting longer.   If we stay in EU, we have no control over this at all.  What does that do to the provision of schools places, hospital beds, housing and jobs?
5) Sovereignty.  I think we should govern ourselves, not have a small  seat at the EU Table.
6) Trade..will still happen. Germany needs us to buy their cars, the French need us to buy their wine and Spain needs our tourists. If they hike the prices, we'll buy Aussie wine, Japanese cars (built in Swindon!) and holiday in Turkey...which golfers already do as the prices are much lower than Spain and Portugal (since the Euro!)   (anyone been to SW Ireland since the Euro?  eek!)
7) Look at which public bodies are getting EU Grant Money.... they are highly prominent on the list of "experts" saying remain.  mmmmm
8) I think the EU is about to fall anyway,  (little piece of subjectivity if I may) ... reason... there are too few net contributors and too many net receivers. (that's fact) Not sustainable.

...I have worked in Switzerland and Norway (not in EU , but seem to manage!) recently, also in France and Germany... the anti EU movements there are large, but I have yet to see anything on BBC/ITV about them. Why might that be? 


ooh, its going to be close and I do expect dirty tricks from Brussels.  The hate us, but they need our cash.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future.   There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, *families taking more responsibility*,using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.
		
Click to expand...

I believe Asians have a culture of taking in elderly relatives which we could learn a lot from.  So get some more Asians in the UK and we'll be sorted.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem to get it.  If you looked at immigration costs over a period the longer you look the more they cost until they get to the same cost as the Native Brits.  They don't stay new immigrants for ever, they eventually have the same entitlement values and expect the state to subsidise their lifestyles.   The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer, they are not lazier than EU people they have just normalised themselves to the wishy washy liberal way the UK has made people less responsible for their own life.  Your comment that they perform better than natives or non-eu immigrants supports this fact.

I would add that hardly anyone is suggesting we stop immigration, that would be stupid, we just need to encourage people that we need to fill jobs that cannot be filled by those already here.
		
Click to expand...

Unless you can actually provide some actual facts/data, you are only speculating!

An equivalent speculation - that EU originating immigrants 'retire to their home country' is just as justified! 

Btw. The simple fact that the chart does not simply show 3 simple downward sloping lines demonstrates the fallacy of your argument! What it does do, is show pretty usual variances over time that reflect the health of the UK economy at those times!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2016)

Did any of the intellectual members come up with the reason that there were not going to be major concerns on leaving the EU last year but this year it will result in the UK ceasing to trade, terrorism at an all time high and the likely hood of another war in Europe?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer...
		
Click to expand...

The figures are for absolute equivalent conditions - those arriving from 2001! And non-EU migrants (as a group) have never been positive contributors!

In earlier posts, you deny that EU migrants 'go home', so you are wrong in at least 1 of your assertions!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I believe Asians have a culture of taking in elderly relatives which we could learn a lot from.  So get some more Asians in the UK and we'll be sorted.

Click to expand...

Asians are at a disadvantage with the current EU open borders so yes, Brexit would give them a more level playing field to be considered for a life in the UK.

Silly Smiley again. Silly boy.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Did any of the intellectual members come up with the reason that there were not going to be major concerns on leaving the EU last year but this year it will result in the UK ceasing to trade, terrorism at an all time high and the likely hood of another war in Europe?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?
		
Click to expand...

No as he is a minor player. Would have preferred to hear from the experts who are currently spreading doom and gloom.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?
		
Click to expand...

Why have you changed the subject rather than answering the question that was asked? Cameron stated that if his negotiations were not successful then he could back the UK leaving the EU. If his negotiations were such a success then what was it that he negotiated that has made such a massive difference?

Yes, Boris Johnson decided to back Leave rather than Remain but I suspect you wouldn't have such a problem with him changing his position if he had changed in the opposite direction.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Asians are at a disadvantage with the current EU open borders so yes, Brexit would give them a more level playing field to be considered for a life in the UK.

Silly Smiley again. Silly boy.
		
Click to expand...

But I thought you had said many times that immigrants are not a solution to the nations wealth?  So are you now saying that a Brexit would be good as it makes it a more level playing field for immigrants from non EU countries? Who may increase the good of the nation after all?  

Not sure about anyone else but I am getting a bit confused here where you stand on immigration. Please tell us more as you haven't mentioned it much in this thread.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 7, 2016)

IanM said:



			I am an avid "Leave" person....  and my grand mother was Polish and my grandfather Lithuanian!  Keeping it factual and objective (as far as it possible) I think...

1) The excellent ideals of "free trade" have been sacrificed for increasing Federalism, without asking the electorate.   (Some say that was always the intension, but who knows)
2) The single currency is dangerous with such diversity of economies... e.g. Germany and Greece being having same exchange rates and interest rates is daft (and isn't working)  Greece and Italy were no where near meeting the criteria set for joining - so why were they allowed in?  (This is killing Greece at the moment)
3) The Commissioners and Presidents of various bodies are responsible for most of UK laws now... we didn't vote them in and we cant vote them out.  That's not acceptable to me.
4) Immigration.  Time for a grown up conversation.  Minimum wage/wages in general here are miles higher than all of the Eastern European States.  Hence they are here in numbers!  And good luck to them too...we'd all do the same if places were reversed (Remember the 80s TV "Auf Wiedersehen Pet"  ...the brickies went in search of work)  But, as we do not have a surplus of jobs and services in the UK (and haven't since the 60s!) ...  what is the effect?  You cant add people to an existing queue without the queue getting longer.   If we stay in EU, we have no control over this at all.  What does that do to the provision of schools places, hospital beds, housing and jobs?
5) Sovereignty.  I think we should govern ourselves, not have a small  seat at the EU Table.
6) Trade..will still happen. Germany needs us to buy their cars, the French need us to buy their wine and Spain needs our tourists. If they hike the prices, we'll buy Aussie wine, Japanese cars (built in Swindon!) and holiday in Turkey...which golfers already do as the prices are much lower than Spain and Portugal (since the Euro!)   (anyone been to SW Ireland since the Euro?  eek!)
7) Look at which public bodies are getting EU Grant Money.... they are highly prominent on the list of "experts" saying remain.  mmmmm
8) I think the EU is about to fall anyway,  (little piece of subjectivity if I may) ... reason... there are too few net contributors and too many net receivers. (that's fact) Not sustainable.

...I have worked in Switzerland and Norway (not in EU , but seem to manage!) recently, also in France and Germany... the anti EU movements there are large, but I have yet to see anything on BBC/ITV about them. Why might that be? 


ooh, its going to be close and I do expect dirty tricks from Brussels.  The hate us, but they need our cash.
		
Click to expand...

Congratulations sir on what is probably the best post on this entire thread  :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But I thought you had said many times that immigrants are not a solution to the nations wealth?  So are you now saying that a Brexit would be good as it makes it a more level playing field for immigrants from non EU countries? Who may increase the good of the nation after all?  

Not sure about anyone else but I am getting a bit confused here where you stand on immigration. Please tell us more as you haven't mentioned it much in this thread.

Click to expand...

It's probably your selective reading or even selective prejudice if you haven't taken in my stance on immigration.

I have stated many times in reply to those that suggest that immigration gives an overall net contribution to the exchequer that the premiss is incorrect over the long term and very small in the short term.

I have made it clear that anyone suggesting we have no migration is wrong.   

I have also explained that my preference is for the UK to decide the number and skills required on an annual basis and to allow immigrants from any country that meet the criteria. 

I don't like the way anyone from the EU irrespective of skills can take priority over the rest of the worlds skilled applicants.

I have said that I believe we have taken too many immigrants over the last decade and it has created stress to our services and hits the lower paid the highest.   I also believe the extrapolated levels we can expect that would push the UK population to 89 Million by 2030 will create very big problems in areas like power supply, especially after the silly policies of closing power stations with no plan to replace them.

There are a few of the things I have posted so I hope that enlightens you somewhat.   Although I somehow expect the same question at some later point.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The figures are for absolute equivalent conditions - those arriving from 2001! And non-EU migrants (as a group) have never been positive contributors!

In earlier posts, you deny that EU migrants 'go home', so you are wrong in at least 1 of your assertions!
		
Click to expand...

Some may go home, it would be stupid to suggest none will but why would they want to go home to be poor in later life.  It makes no sense and is not what has traditionally happened with immigrants.   How many went home to the Caribbean for example.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 7, 2016)

My brother has just realised that tonight is the deadline to register to vote and he doesn't have the internet so I'm trying to register for him. The website has clearly not been scaled to cope with the demand as I've been trying for about an hour without success. Another government IT fiasco.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			My brother has just realised that tonight is the deadline to register to vote and he doesn't have the internet so I'm trying to register for him. The website has clearly not been scaled to cope with the demand as I've been trying for about an hour without success. Another government IT fiasco.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure that you can blame the government for the number of people that have suddenly realised they need to register to vote. It's not like the date of a referendum has been kept secret and people have had plenty of time to register if they were that bothered about doing it.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure that you can blame the government for the number of people that have suddenly realised they need to register to vote. It's not like the date of a referendum has been kept secret and people have had plenty of time to register if they were that bothered about doing it.
		
Click to expand...

Think I can. There's been a sudden blitz of publicity about the deadline today hence the obvious spike in demand and the website just can't cope. It's very poor, amateurish.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Think I can. There's been a sudden blitz of publicity about the deadline today hence the obvious spike in demand and the website just can't cope. It's very poor, amateurish.
		
Click to expand...

But it isn't a "sudden blitz of publicity" as it's been going on for a while now. There have been posts on Facebook and Twitter for at least a month about making sure you are registered to vote in time and we also got something through the post about it as well. I wonder if the sudden blitz you mention (aimed mainly at younger voters who are more likely to vote Remain) is anything to do with how close the polls are suggesting the vote is going to be?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			My brother has just realised that tonight is the deadline to register to vote and he doesn't have the internet so I'm trying to register for him. The website has clearly not been scaled to cope with the demand as I've been trying for about an hour without success. Another government IT fiasco.
		
Click to expand...

Took me 3 evenings to register


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Took me 3 evenings to register
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I didn't manage to get him registered until this morning. Fair enough he's left it to the last minute but did try to do it within the deadline and ultimately it's a failure of the IT system that has cost him his vote.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Took me 3 evenings to register
		
Click to expand...

................ it's always like that with old, computer illiterate codgers Brian!  :smirk:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Some may go home, it would be stupid to suggest none will but why would they want to go home to be poor in later life.  It makes no sense and is not what has traditionally happened with immigrants.   How many went home to the Caribbean for example.
		
Click to expand...

Probably to be with 'the rest of their family' and 'living rather better than if they had stayed at home'! I'm also not saying that all of them will, but the close proximity and excellent transport links are likely to make this much simpler and economical than for non-EU migrants!

I'm surprised that's not rather obvious to you! It certainly is to me, both from my own circumstances and by observing the ttitudes/plans of other migrants!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2016)

If you have two buckets, one full of money(the contributing countries) and one empty(the receiving countries) and you tip money from one into the other till its equal, the wealthy countries become poorer and the poorer countries become wealthier.

Are we a wealthy country? By far, our biggest growth since 2004 is food banks!! Strangely enough, and purely by a huge coincidence, the EU opened its doors to 10 new members on the 1st May 2004, and not one of them is or has ever been a net contributor. However, several of them are net exporters of labour or,  cynically, they've offloaded their unemployed.

I do a lot of work with charities up and down the country. The demand on them, whilst their resources are dwindling, is unprecedented. 

We are the only country in the world that meets its UN Overseas Aid target... and we have food banks!!

I have no problem with immigration IF we can cope with it... and we have food banks!!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Probably to be with 'the rest of their family' and 'living rather better than if they had stayed at home'! I'm also not saying that all of them will, but the close proximity and excellent transport links are likely to make this much simpler and economical than for non-EU migrants!

I'm surprised that's not rather obvious to you! It certainly is to me, both from my own circumstances and by observing the ttitudes/plans of other migrants!
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand how you cant see you are wrong.  I explained that immigrants from the Caribbean never went home in old age, most Brits that go to Australia, New Zealand , Canada etc don't come home in old age.

If this is moving into another of your personal campaigns with me then I suggest we leave it out now.    All you have to do is refrain from replying or getting the last word.   Bet you cant! :smirk:


----------



## vkurup (Jun 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Asians are at a disadvantage with the current EU open borders so yes, Brexit would give them a more level playing field to be considered for a life in the UK.

Silly Smiley again. Silly boy.
		
Click to expand...

Yesterday I was listening to the debate on the BBC Asian Network while driving. One of the callers had probably the most hilarious reason why she wanted 'Out.  Her background was that she was here from an Asian country for her studies and then took up a job.  She has a decent paying job and is married to a British man, but still waiting citizenship. Every year she has to ensure that she keeps her job and a certain level of pay to ensure she meets the home office criteria.   All this is good stuff, till she mentioned why she was voting out.  
Acc to her (and I paraphrase), she wanted out because she has to continuously prove that she is employed while the EU migrants dont have to.  She had spend 7K in the past 6 years on visa fees while the EU migrants dont. So she wanted a level playing field and want EU folks to pay visa fees like her.  She said she did not want to hear the arguments for and against but she was only voting due to 'personal' reasons.  Acc to her, if the Brits want to go to Europe, then the Brits should pay visa fees. If they want to go to her native country then they should pay visa fees. While the firm she was working for would be affected by a Brexit, it did not matter as long as the europeans paid visa fees.. I was in splits as the moderator was driving a coach through her argument.  When she stopped it felt like she was still Brexiting and would change it only if the Europeans pay visa fees every year.  I guess everyone has their own reason.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Think I can. There's been a sudden blitz of publicity about the deadline today hence the obvious spike in demand and the website just can't cope. It's very poor, amateurish.
		
Click to expand...

This is unfair.  I used to work on Government Gateway - and if you do your self assessment tax return on-line you will use GG.  I can assure you that a huge amount of time, effort and planning is put into scaling the technical environment to support a last minute rush to complete returns on the evening of 31st January.  At first we didn't get it right as we didn't realise how many would leave it quite so late - but rather than just expect peoples behaviour to change the environment has been scaled so that it now copes pretty well - and that means coping with about 11 million on-line tax returns - and over 500,000 on 31st January!

For EU voting registration it is reasonable to expect most folks to register in plenty of time and the system will have been scaled accordingly with a large contingency.   When it became evident that a lot of folks hadn't registered and there was a push to get folks to register there is very little that can be done in the very short term to upgrade the system.  And what we get is that the web site crashed or struggled at 10pm last night.  Now that is leaving it to the last minute and frankly if you were wanting to vote then you shouldn't have been waiting to that late.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Yesterday I was listening to the debate on the BBC Asian Network while driving. One of the callers had probably the most hilarious reason why she wanted 'Out.  Her background was that she was here from an Asian country for her studies and then took up a job.  She has a decent paying job and is married to a British man, but still waiting citizenship. Every year she has to ensure that she keeps her job and a certain level of pay to ensure she meets the home office criteria.   All this is good stuff, till she mentioned why she was voting out.  
Acc to her (and I paraphrase), she wanted out because she has to continuously prove that she is employed while the EU migrants dont have to.  She had spend 7K in the past 6 years on visa fees while the EU migrants dont. So she wanted a level playing field and want EU folks to pay visa fees like her.  She said she did not want to hear the arguments for and against but she was only voting due to 'personal' reasons.  Acc to her, if the Brits want to go to Europe, then the Brits should pay visa fees. If they want to go to her native country then they should pay visa fees. While the firm she was working for would be affected by a Brexit, it did not matter as long as the europeans paid visa fees.. I was in splits as the moderator was driving a coach through her argument.  When she stopped it felt like she was still Brexiting and would change it only if the Europeans pay visa fees every year.  I guess everyone has their own reason.
		
Click to expand...

Hey - I've read letters and heard from individuals who will vote out because they don't like kilos and kilometres, and want pounds and miles back.  Not sure if they want pennies and shillings back - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Why should it matter if it's hours before a deadline or days before a deadline?

If you set a deadline then you should be able to accept all applications up until that deadline.

The experts at the Government didn't do their job in provisioning sufficient resources to handle the demand.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Why should it matter if it's hours before a deadline or days before a deadline?

If you set a deadline then you should be able to accept all applications up until that deadline.

The experts at the Government didn't do their job in provisioning sufficient resources to handle the demand.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot scale for all eventualities - and provisioning of resources is not simply adding more.  Sometimes you just can't without completely rebuilding an environment.  And if that environment covers multiple government websites (as they do) the potential technical issues and service disruptions simply mean that you cannot provision a service to cope with all possibilities.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is unfair.  I used to work on Government Gateway - and if you do your self assessment tax return on-line you will use GG.  I can assure you that a huge amount of time, effort and planning is put into scaling the technical environment to support a last minute rush to complete returns on the evening of 31st January.  At first we didn't get it right as we didn't realise how many would leave it quite so late - but rather than just expect peoples behaviour to change the environment has been scaled so that it now copes pretty well - and that means coping with about 11 million on-line tax returns - and over 500,000 on 31st January!

For EU voting registration it is reasonable to expect most folks to register in plenty of time and the system will have been scaled accordingly with a large contingency.   When it became evident that a lot of folks hadn't registered and there was a push to get folks to register there is very little that can be done in the very short term to upgrade the system.  And what we get is that the web site crashed or struggled at 10pm last night.  Now that is leaving it to the last minute and frankly if you were wanting to vote then you shouldn't have been waiting to that late.
		
Click to expand...

It's not unfair. The system was clearly inadequate to cope with the entirely predictable last minute rush and many citizens have been disenfranchised as a result. 

What's not fair is to shift the blame to individuals who were attempting to register within the allowed period.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Yesterday I was listening to the debate on the BBC Asian Network while driving. One of the callers had probably the most hilarious reason why she wanted 'Out.  Her background was that she was here from an Asian country for her studies and then took up a job.  She has a decent paying job and is married to a British man, but still waiting citizenship. Every year she has to ensure that she keeps her job and a certain level of pay to ensure she meets the home office criteria.   All this is good stuff, till she mentioned why she was voting out.  
Acc to her (and I paraphrase), she wanted out because she has to continuously prove that she is employed while the EU migrants dont have to.  She had spend 7K in the past 6 years on visa fees while the EU migrants dont. So she wanted a level playing field and want EU folks to pay visa fees like her.  She said she did not want to hear the arguments for and against but she was only voting due to 'personal' reasons.  Acc to her, if the Brits want to go to Europe, then the Brits should pay visa fees. If they want to go to her native country then they should pay visa fees. While the firm she was working for would be affected by a Brexit, it did not matter as long as the europeans paid visa fees.. I was in splits as the moderator was driving a coach through her argument.  When she stopped it felt like she was still Brexiting and would change it only if the Europeans pay visa fees every year.  I guess everyone has their own reason.
		
Click to expand...

As you say everyone has their own reason.  It's would be madness to quote every one that was a bit odd and consider that a reflection of one side or the other.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hey - I've read letters and heard from individuals who will vote out because they don't like kilos and kilometres, and want pounds and miles back.  Not sure if they want pennies and shillings back - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
		
Click to expand...

As I posted above it is rather silly to make such comments.   If you watched the debate by Cameron and Farage with a live audience you would see that people are very serious about the matter and some compelling arguments for both sides.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's not unfair. The system was clearly inadequate to cope with the entirely predictable last minute rush and many citizens have been disenfranchised as a result. 

What's not fair is to shift the blame to individuals who were attempting to register within the allowed period.
		
Click to expand...

If you have a flight to catch do you leave yourself plenty of time to get to the airport? Or do you leave it to the last possible minute to leave and then when you get stuck in traffic blame the airline for you missing your flight? 

And if as you say the last minute rush was entirely predictable why didn't you register earlier?


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

What on earth has catching a plane got to do with registering to vote?!

Anyway looks like common sense will prevail and they will extend voter registration to today.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			If you have a flight to catch do you leave yourself plenty of time to get to the airport? Or do you leave it to the last possible minute to leave and then when you get stuck in traffic blame the airline for you missing your flight? 

And if as you say the last minute rush was entirely predictable why didn't you register earlier?
		
Click to expand...

Not the same thing at all.

I've always been registered but this has caught out people who maybe aren't as politically engaged or computer literate but for whom the blitz of "get registered" publicity finally hit home. Anyone going online before 11.45 last night should have had plenty of time to register. They've been let down by yet another government it failure.

Reading a report today (no idea how they got this figure) that said about 20,000 people were trying to register just before midnight. That's not really a lot for a system to handle.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Norway's contribution to the EU, for access in four specific market areas, is â‚¬884million. An awful lot less than the UK's, which is the spin a Leaver would put on it. I'd be interested to know the value of Norway's exports to the EU compared to ours.

Norway have also, as you highlighted, had to agree to free movement of people. Quite what that means in terms of non-EU citizens travelling from an EU country I don't know but, again, it would be nice to know.

However, what's to say an exited UK wouldn't argue for different terms... crystal ball time?
		
Click to expand...

Free movement of people.....to a country that's dark for 8 months and has a serious level of alcoholism and suicide becacause of it. Yeah, sure we'll agree to free movement...who in their right mind will want to come here !!!


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			The experts at the Government didn't do their job in provisioning sufficient resources to handle the demand.
		
Click to expand...


Not to be unexpected with this government and its 'experts'...

Folk are only going to arrive in their tens of thousands...
So need to go mad building homes/schools etc...
In fact, we can even shut some hospitals down etc...


----------



## IanM (Jun 8, 2016)

Open borders???


If you don't know how many players are coming to the golf day, how do you know how many tee times to book? 

Or maybe we have huge surpluses of hospital beds, school places, jobs and housing?


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

You look at how many have come to your golf day in previous years, consider whether it is likely to be fewer or greater depending on what other nearby golf days are offering, and make a reasoned estimate.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deadline to register has been extended until end of Thursday.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You look at how many have come to your golf day in previous years, consider whether it is likely to be fewer or greater depending on what other nearby golf days are offering, and make a reasoned estimate.
		
Click to expand...

So that would work for a game 10 years off then and when you have no real idea how many members you have now.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 8, 2016)

Is there anyone that has been persuaded to change their mind based on the discussion on this thread?


----------



## vkurup (Jun 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's not unfair. The system was clearly inadequate to cope with the entirely predictable last minute rush and many citizens have been disenfranchised as a result. 

What's not fair is to shift the blame to individuals who were attempting to register within the allowed period.
		
Click to expand...

Technology works slightly differently and no point in simply blaming the govt and the IT bods for the provisioning of the IT infrastructure.  No one expects half a million new registrations just before the deadline. It costs real money to get extra infrastructure to cater to such events and with reduced budgets you can expect someone would have done a risk analysis or a model to say that we can take about 100-200-250K last min registrations but if it goes to 500K then the cost for provisioning would be higher. Based on the model someone would have decided that they have budget for about 250K regs and willing to accept the risk for it - as this is a one of a kind event. 
This is similar to why we dont invest in snow ploughs in this country or in the south anymore.  So if we have a really bad snow, then we will moan and get on with it rather than spend millions on on-off events.  Equally, as someone pointed out, the 31st Jan Self Assessment was a lot worse, but can now cope because it is fully provisioned and is an annual event.  

But it does feel good to call the govt and its experts incompetent... so lets continue to do that ...


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Technology works slightly differently and no point in simply blaming the govt and the IT bods for the provisioning of the IT infrastructure.  No one expects half a million new registrations just before the deadline.
But it does feel good to call the govt and its experts incompetent... so lets continue to do that ...
		
Click to expand...

Of course they should have expected it - it was a similar spike in volume as before the deadline to register in the General Election only last year.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So that would work for a game 10 years off then and when you have no real idea how many members you have now.
		
Click to expand...

No guarantees on birth rates either but possible to model.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course they should have expected it.
		
Click to expand...

As should have those registering.

The last minute dot com society strikes again.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course they should have expected it - it was a similar spike in volume as before the deadline to register in the General Election only last year.
		
Click to expand...

No it wasn't. Before the last General election they processed 72000 registrations per hour. Before the deadline yesterday the demand was over 200000 registrations per hour. Almost three times as many. 

And what happens now if lots of people leave it late to register tomorrow and the system crashes again? Do they then extend the deadline again?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

Making a software and hardware change to cope with this volume is a very big and expensive project that someone has to pay for and would probably need a five year development plan and program. 

I find it hard to understand why so many have left it to the last minute, we have had more than enough warning.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Is there anyone that has been persuaded to change their mind based on the discussion on this thread?
		
Click to expand...

Dont be silly Gordon.  How much fun would that be?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Making a software and hardware change to cope with this volume is a very big and expensive project that someone has to pay for and would probably need a five year development plan and program. 

I find it hard to understand why so many have left it to the last minute, we have had more than enough warning.
		
Click to expand...

Quite - it's not like sticking a bit more memory in your PC or buying a new one with a faster processor.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Is there anyone that has been persuaded to change their mind based on the discussion on this thread?
		
Click to expand...

I've gone from out to sitting on the fence. Bizarrely it's more about confidence in the politicians if we vote out. I genuinely feel they are competent to tie their own shoe laces let alone steer us through the out negotiations.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I've gone from out to sitting on the fence. Bizarrely it's more about confidence in the politicians if we vote out. I genuinely feel they are competent to tie their own shoe laces let alone steer us through the out negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

I'm the opposite. I've gone from definitely voting Remain to now being so undecided that I might not even bother to vote at all.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm the opposite. I've gone from definitely voting Remain to now being so undecided that I might not even bother to vote at all.
		
Click to expand...

Must admit to thinking of abstaining and leaving it to those that know better. Unfortunately I then get a picture of someone coming out of the bookie and voting.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2016)

We have the likes of Ashley and the bosses of BHS - and today I learn from my son that he has had his JSA stopped because he has not accepted a job in Tesco - stacking shelves getting paid nothing by Tesco.  He has a degree, he has been applying for 6 jobs a day - every day - as a condition for getting his Â£57 a week.  Yup - Â£57 a week.  And because he is wanting to get a half decent job he doesn't want to spend 37.5 hours a week stacking shelves - he wants to continue looking for work,  and so he says no - and the government stop his benefits.  Oh yes - some will say - well he should accept anything - really?  Tesco getting free labour and no prospect of an even half decent job at the end of it.  

Anyone got any idea how he is supposed to live?  Clearly Ian Duncan Smith and Chris Greyling don't really care else they wouldn't have concocted such a system.  And yes - these are two of the guys who will be leading a Brexitted UK gov.  Oh joy of joys.  And we think that of course a Brexitted UK government wouldn't loosen employment law and put workers rights even further down the list of priorities as they struggle to get a Brexited UK onto an even keel.  Dream on,  the poor and unemployed will be even more dumped on than they are today,


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I've gone from out to sitting on the fence. Bizarrely it's more about confidence in the politicians if we vote out. I genuinely feel they are competent to tie their own shoe laces let alone steer us through the out negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

I started out as REMAIN, fluctuated several times, then returned to REMAIN. The main reason? A total lack of faith/trust in our own politicians to do anything other than what is right for themselves and the interests they really represent.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have the likes of Ashley and the bosses of BHS - and today I learn from my son that he has had his JSA stopped because he has not accepted a job in Tesco - stacking shelves getting paid nothing by Tesco.  He has a degree, he has been applying for 6 jobs a day - every day - as a condition for getting his Â£57 a week.  Yup - Â£57 a week.  And because he is wanting to get a half decent job he doesn't want to spend 37.5 hours a week stacking shelves - he wants to continue looking for work,  and so he says no - and the government stop his benefits.  Oh yes - some will say - well he should accept anything - really?  Tesco getting free labour and no prospect of an even half decent job at the end of it.  

Anyone got any idea how he is supposed to live?  Clearly Ian Duncan Smith and Chris Greyling don't really care else they wouldn't have concocted such a system.  And yes - these are two of the guys who will be leading a Brexitted UK gov.  Oh joy of joys.  And we think that of course a Brexitted UK government wouldn't loosen employment law and put workers rights even further down the list of priorities as they struggle to get a Brexited UK onto an even keel.  Dream on,  the poor and unemployed will be even more dumped on than they are today,
		
Click to expand...


Apparently there's hundreds of thousands of immigrants willing to come in and do anything for a wage.

Seriously though, I see this sort of thing in countless CV's when I'm recruiting. Who do I choose? The guy who does the shelf sticking job or the guy who sits at home? I know it's brutal but your lad's CV would end up in the bin.


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 8, 2016)

Been there, not much fun. Do they not give 3 months grace before insisting you accept anything? I ended up washing cars for 6 months (despite my three degrees!) as I had a pregnant wife to support, a mortgage to pay (not that the wages made much of a dent!) and nothing seemingly available in my profession within a commute. A little amusing to learn that some of my colleagues were earning more than double my hourly rate at the time thanks to all their benefits! Previous years earnings seemed to have disqualified me, but thankfully we are reasonably good savers.


----------



## Fish (Jun 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Apparently there's hundreds of thousands of immigrants willing to come in and do anything for a wage.

Seriously though, I see this sort of thing in countless CV's when I'm recruiting. Who do I choose? The guy who does the shelf sticking job or the guy who sits at home? I know it's brutal but your lad's CV would end up in the bin.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I always employed those who put themselves out to work even though it was obvious it wasn't for them rather than waiting for that special position that's going to come around....!

I've never not worked, before I opened my business and when I was creating the business and fitting it out for months prior to opening, I was working nights at ToysRUs stacking pallets and loading lorries, I did some door knocking for our local paper trying to sign people up and also leaflet distribution, all this was nights or late afternoon so it didn't get into the way of what I needed to do in the day, the same as anyone who needs a full day to apply for jobs from home! 

It's too easy to make excuses and blame everyone and anything but yourself, I wouldn't give him a second look!


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2016)

Unfortunately tescos and similar places are full of 30yr somethings with degrees that didn't wanna do something beneath them. A few years without a job and they're soon damaged goods.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I started out as REMAIN, fluctuated several times, then returned to REMAIN. The main reason? A total lack of faith/trust in our own politicians to do anything other than what is right for themselves and the interests they really represent.
		
Click to expand...

So do you have more faith in the likes of Osborne and Cameron?  Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - it's not like sticking a bit more memory in your PC or buying a new one with a faster processor.
		
Click to expand...

No need to change anything if you've sized it appropriately in the first place. I'm amazed at the excuses being trotted out by people who seem to be involved in the industry. If this had been one of my systems I'd expect to be hauled over the coals over such a high profile embarrassing failure.

Seems like a clear design flaw in that they never anticipated that such a peak in demand could occur. 

Anyway the deadline  has been extended which mitigates it somewhat.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So do you have more faith in the likes of Osborne and Cameron?  Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

And you have faith in Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage? 

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...................


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So do you have more faith in the likes of Osborne and Cameron?  Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have more faith in Farage?
Neil is a professional antagonist.
Whereas the studio audience made Farage look a totally clueless numpty who has a problem with 'people who are not like us'.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So do you have more faith in the likes of Osborne and Cameron?  Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

I have zero faith in Cameron and Osbourne. I'm not placing my vote based on the personalities of those campaigning. I've analysed the good and bad of the EU, and then asked myself whether our Politicians would improve the bad, and maintain the good. In both cases I believe they wouldn't. Not in any way that would be beneficial to me, or people like me.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And you have faith in Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage? 

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...................
		
Click to expand...

And that's the big crux of it for me 

I can't in a million years trust or back something with those names you mention looking after it - just one reason I have changed my mind


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

"Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest??"

I'm with SR!!!! I just haven't got the temper / knowledge / debating skills to deal with people who are obviously in the wrong.

Everyone who votes to remain should be branded so that we can identify you all when it all end up in a complete mess and point you out to our grandkids, who we won't be able to understand as they'll speak christ alone knows what language.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And you have faith in Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage? 

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...................
		
Click to expand...


Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

had the remain leaflet come yesterday,
There were four subjects highlighted on the back

says jobs will be more secure staying in. Said it before and al say it again. Didn't help me when Mr Cameron and Osborne never put in for EU aid which would of secured my job. So that was a lie.

says that pensions will be more secure staying in the EU, well seeing as my pension went tits up TWICE, and they are both in the pension protection fund. That's another lie. 

The other two subjects were well subjective, at that point my tyrets had kicked it and I was struggling to focus.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have more faith in Farage?
Neil is a professional antagonist.
Whereas the studio audience made Farage look a totally clueless numpty who has a problem with 'people who are not like us'.
		
Click to expand...

He never looked as clueless and numpty as Cameron.  What a slimy piece of work he is.

Neil showed Osborne time and time again how he has exaggerated his claims about Leave.  Osborne had no ansers he just kept spewing out the same old lies.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And you have faith in Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage? 

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...................
		
Click to expand...

I dont need faith in any of them.   I have faith in my Nation and I know we can be better standing on our own feet.    I will probably get the old hackneyed 'Jingoistic' and 'xenophobic' calls for that but I expect nothing else from some of the wishy washy socialists.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			"Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest??"

I'm with SR!!!! I just haven't got the temper / knowledge / debating skills to deal with people who are obviously in the wrong.

Everyone who votes to remain should be branded so that we can identify you all when it all end up in a complete mess and point you out to our grandkids, who we won't be able to understand as they'll speak christ alone knows what language.
		
Click to expand...


You do realize that any trade deal with Europe would most likely come with the proviso that we maintain the "free movement of people" policy?  I know that doesn't fit your particular mind set, but hey ho....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

This week we have had:
Let's extend the registration process for those who couldn't be bothered to do the sensible thing, very sudden decision to hold the referendum you know.

Lets see how many pub and party goers complain when they roll out of the pub and the polling booths are closing.

The BBC reporting that a very senior MP has switched sides and will now vote remain-no derogatory comments from those who had a pop at Boris I see, PS she is a back bencher with 2 years experience as an MP and down here in the SW she originally said she was voting out because of the way the farming and fisheries policies were against UK farmers and fishermen - well she does live in the SW. Perhaps she has been offered a Cabinet Post taking over from the current Health Minister.

Looks like the head sheds in the remain campaign are a little worried.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			"Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest??"

I'm with SR!!!! I just haven't got the temper / knowledge / debating skills to deal with people who are obviously in the wrong.

Everyone who votes to remain should be branded so that we can identify you all when it all end up in a complete mess and point you out to our grandkids, who we won't be able to understand as they'll speak christ alone knows what language.
		
Click to expand...

I think that attitude sums up a lot of the scare tactics being used by the leave campaign 


Will the same branding be applied to people who voted leave if in 10 years time us being out of the year has ruined us as a country ?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			You do realize that any trade deal with Europe would most likely come with the proviso that we maintain the "free movement of people" policy?  I know that doesn't fit your particular mind set, but hey ho....
		
Click to expand...

As a nett importer don't you think that we would have the upper hand in negotiations or as others have argued do you think that BMW, French importers and all the others will refuse to sell us goods unless we allow free movement of EU personnel .


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that attitude sums up a lot of the scare tactics being used by the leave campaign 


Will the same branding be applied to people who voted leave if in 10 years time us being out of the year has ruined us as a country ?
		
Click to expand...

Didn't think you were a voter LP, or is that just general elections.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Didn't think you were a voter LP, or is that just general elections.
		
Click to expand...

You are getting extremely tedious and boring with that line  - how about changing the record


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are getting extremely tedious and boring with that line  - how about changing the record
		
Click to expand...

It was your statement not mine.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

Seems like he was made to look better than he really is!


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As a nett importer don't you think that we would have the upper hand in negotiations or as others have argued do you think that BMW, French importers and all the others will refuse to sell us goods unless we allow free movement of EU personnel .
		
Click to expand...

Trade deals are highly complex, as you know.. We won't be able to just walk in and start making demands.. We may or may not get a favourable deal, but it won't be all our own way...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It was your statement not mine.
		
Click to expand...

As I have already said to you before a number of times when you bring it up 

I voted in the GE , I voted in the LE and I will vote in the EU Ref - now hopefully you will remember that to stop bringing it up anytime I post in this thread


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not placing my vote based on the personalities of those campaigning.
		
Click to expand...



I truly wish that a whole load more folk would adopt this attitude when they come to decide which way to vote...


We'd be a whole lot better off, as a nation, I reckon..


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Trade deals are highly complex, as you know.. We won't be able to just walk in and start making demands.. We may or may not get a favourable deal, but it won't be all our own way...
		
Click to expand...

Quite agree but if we don't get heavy handed and make no demands, providing the seller makes none I don't see a problem.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you see Osborne with Andrew Neil last night, he was made to look a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

Not seen it but not surprised. He's had 3 consecutive budgets with U-turns that have meant the budget didn't balance. If I did that my MD would have shown me the door... I can't believe he's still in post, which brings into question the credibility of the man who put him there.

And they're both Remainers... they're putting Remain at risk with their "WW3" lies etc. Equally, who on the leave side is trustworthy?

Sadly, I feel the whole issue has reinforced what a bunch of liars we have as politicians running the UK.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I have already said to you before a number of times when you bring it up 

I voted in the GE , I voted in the LE and I will vote in the EU Ref - now hopefully you will remember that to stop bringing it up anytime I post in this thread
		
Click to expand...

My apologise, I must have missed your change of mind on voting.

As I have stated in the past, I prefer people to vote even if I don't agree with there preference .


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Trade deals are highly complex, as you know.. We won't be able to just walk in and start making demands.. We may or may not get a favourable deal, but it won't be all our own way...
		
Click to expand...

So whats the worst case scenario.  They apply some trade tariffs to our exports and we apply some to theirs.   Who would be the worse off by that, it would encourage us to buy more from the rest of the world at lower prices and  also make our own products.   The EU does not have a strong hand in dealing with their biggest customer.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that attitude sums up a lot of the scare tactics being used by the leave campaign 


Will the same branding be applied to people who voted leave if in 10 years time us being out of the year has ruined us as a country ?
		
Click to expand...

Bring it on. You can brand me anytime you want as someone who wants their country back under it own control and to be proud of it again.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats the worst case scenario.  They apply some trade tariffs to our exports and we apply some to theirs.   Who would be the worse off by that, it would encourage us to buy more from the rest of the world at lower prices and  also make our own products.   The EU does not have a strong hand in dealing with their biggest customer.
		
Click to expand...

Tit for tat tariffing would be bad for the EU countries. We are a huge consuming country. We'd just import more from China / India / Indonesia and the USA.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats the worst case scenario.  They apply some trade tariffs to our exports and we apply some to theirs.   Who would be the worse off by that, it would encourage us to buy more from the rest of the world at lower prices and  also make our own products.   The EU does not have a strong hand in dealing with their biggest customer.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this is falling into the trap of thinking that the only real discussion point is the economy.. Nobody on this forum can possibly know what any future trade deal will look like.. Based on previous negotiations, I don't think it will be as rosy as some on here, but I have no idea if I'm right or not...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Bring it on. You can brand me anytime you want as someone who wants their country back under it own control and to be proud of it again.
		
Click to expand...

Are you not proud of your country right now ? 

I am - politics don't change me being proud of the country and its people 

And unless I missed something we are in control of our country


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this is falling into the trap of thinking that the only real discussion point is the economy.. Nobody on this forum can possibly know what any future trade deal will look like.. Based on previous negotiations, I don't think it will be as rosy as some on here, but I have no idea if I'm right or not...
		
Click to expand...

That sums it up perfectly mate :thup: 

A lot of assumptions being made that leaving the EU makes everything perfect but there is nothing factual to back that up - it's purely guesswork and risks - are people willing to risk the country ? I don't think I am


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this is falling into the trap of thinking that the only real discussion point is the economy.. Nobody on this forum can possibly know what any future trade deal will look like.. Based on previous negotiations, I don't think it will be as rosy as some on here, but I have no idea if I'm right or not...
		
Click to expand...

The trade deal would be in our favour! Hi Europe, did you know there are other countries that produce the same stuff as you....cheaper too, we'll get it all from them eh? Ok now we'll talk.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			The trade deal would be in our favour! Hi Europe, did you know there are other countries that produce the same stuff as you....cheaper too, we'll get it all from them eh? Ok now we'll talk.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know that it "would be in our favour" ?


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That sums it up perfectly mate :thup: 

A lot of assumptions being made that leaving the EU makes everything perfect but there is nothing factual to back that up - it's purely guesswork and risks - are people willing to risk the country ? I don't think I am
		
Click to expand...

wishy washy lilly livered person. risk!? What risk? Risk us being over run with people who we cannot then support.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know that it "would be in our favour" ?
		
Click to expand...

coz we import more than we export, so then they need us as we buy shed loads of stuff.....that we COULD GET ELSEWHERE !


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you not proud of your country right now ? 

I am - politics don't change me being proud of the country and its people 

And unless I missed something we are in control of our country
		
Click to expand...

No we're  not.  We have no control on EU migration, we have no control in our justice system, we have no control on new laws being imposed on us, we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country.   It's a mess.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			coz we import more than we export, so then they need us as we buy shed loads of stuff.....that we COULD GET ELSEWHERE !
		
Click to expand...

Do you want our business? No? OK we'll buy our stuff elsewhere. we don't need no trading deal with you. T'raa


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No we're  not.  We have no control on EU migration, we have no control in our justice system, we have no control on new laws being imposed on us, we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country.   I's a mess.
		
Click to expand...

No I'm not proud on the hell hole that is England and haven't been for about 10 years. I don't care about anything that is from here anymore. Once I'd die for my country. I'd fly the flag during sporting tournaments. No more. I want us to regain being English again and be proud of my country. Even if our politicians make a cock up of things, they'll be OUR politicians making decisions for us, not other countries politicians imposing their will on us.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 9, 2016)

Whilst as a whole the EU has a trade surplus with us, that isn't true for every individual country - each of which would have to agree to any new deal.

Can't see trading terms being more favourable outside the EU than in it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this is falling into the trap of thinking that the only real discussion point is the economy.. Nobody on this forum can possibly know what any future trade deal will look like.. Based on previous negotiations, I don't think it will be as rosy as some on here, but I have no idea if I'm right or not...
		
Click to expand...

Look.  No one on here can possibly know what the EU will look like in the future, we can only make a judgement.      As I explained, if you take the very worse case scenario it's not exactly apocalyptic, my feeling is that it would be much better than the worse case anyway.  It keeps getting repeated that we are the EU's biggest single customer, do you really believe they would want to endanger that level of trade.  For anyone to believe that all trade would end if we leave is nonsense.

I could suggest that the EU will soon implode due to the Euro, so we are better off out of it.   Tha'ts the same kind of scare tactics being used by Cameron and Osborne.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you not proud of your country right now ? 

I am - politics don't change me being proud of the country and its people 

And unless I missed something we are in control of our country
		
Click to expand...

I am proud of my country, AND I have ambitions for it to grow. I can't see past the controls put in place by the EU not helping that growth. Simple things like us having control of what industries we can subsidise to make them competitive in the emerging global market. Try getting a subsidy past the EU without going there first.

And yes, you have seriously missed something if you think we have control. I know how many times my #1 daughter has to go back and forth to Brussels when we're trying to write legislation. Control?! I could sit and tell you story after story of the trips to Brussles over various trade laws, e.g. the car scrappage scheme and the Post Office sell off. Control?! 

I know I said it above but I'll say it again, you are seriously deluded if you think we have control of the vast majority of our law making. Split hairs if you want and say we pass it in our Parliament, which we do, but the reality is its a dilution of the laws we originally wanted. 

Sorry Phil but you haven't got a clue. We pass laws that we are allowed to pass. Its a rubberstamping exercise on something that has to be agreed in Brussels. Control?! Give over..


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Whilst as a whole the EU has a trade surplus with us, that isn't true for every individual country - each of which would have to agree to any new deal.

Can't see trading terms being more favourable outside the EU than in it.
		
Click to expand...

Why on earth would we now have to deal with every country individually????? We'd just deal with the EU as a block. Isn't that what the EU is about or have  I missed something?


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

And "freedom of movement". What a load of crock that is? Has anyone been to Europe since we joined? Everytime I go I have to take my passport to show that countries passport control people as though I'm some sort of criminal. Do they smile and wave me in? Do they hell! I'm looked at like I'm dirt off someones shoe.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Why on earth would we now have to deal with every country individually????? We'd just deal with the EU as a block. Isn't that what the EU is about or have  I missed something?
		
Click to expand...

You missed the point in what he said, although you did make up for that with the quantum of question marks.

He was referring to the fact that although we'd be dealing with the EU, this involved agreement from the countries within. Those who don't have a trading deficit with us will be less desperate to give us a good deal, as it impacts them less


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			And "freedom of movement". What a load of crock that is? Has anyone been to Europe since we joined? Everytime I go I have to take my passport to show that countries passport control people as though I'm some sort of criminal. Do they smile and wave me in? Do they hell! I'm looked at like I'm dirt off someones shoe.
		
Click to expand...

With your charming attitude I have absolutely no idea why that would be.

Whereas whenever I've visited, it's been exceptionally quick, with helpful friendly staff, who give me a lovely smile. 

Must be coincidence...


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			And "freedom of movement". What a load of crock that is? Has anyone been to Europe since we joined? Everytime I go I have to take my passport to show that countries passport control people as though I'm some sort of criminal. Do they smile and wave me in? Do they hell! I'm looked at like I'm dirt off someones shoe.
		
Click to expand...

You do realize that they don't know where you're from until they see your passport, don't you? 

And as far as looking at you like dirt, well, maybe that's more personal than political?


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

But they'd be forced to vote for it as the other big exporters would make them. They are under their control...as we are now. and will continue to be so if we stay in. Continually having to broker deals within the corrupt EU.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			No I'm not proud on the hell hole that is England and haven't been for about 10 years. I don't care about anything that is from here anymore. Once I'd die for my country. I'd fly the flag during sporting tournaments. No more. I want us to regain being English again and be proud of my country. Even if our politicians make a cock up of things, they'll be OUR politicians making decisions for us, not other countries politicians imposing their will on us.
		
Click to expand...

England ? I thought this was a UK wide vote ? 

And stating what would happen doesn't actually mean it's going to happen ? 

What happens if leaving the EU cripples the country ? 

You or anyone on here cannot predict what exactly will happen in the future - staying in the EU could help the UK


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

If I've got out of the UK then I have the right to travel. They do not need to see my passport.

I'm about to boost their pityful economy, they need me, I require their sun. Let me get in and start boosting. 
When we vote out and Greece and Portugal and Italy will not be able to be supported by the EU, watch the prices fall in those countries as the pound soars !!!


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			England ? I thought this was a UK wide vote ? 

And stating what would happen doesn't actually mean it's going to happen ? 

What happens if leaving the EU cripples the country ? 

You or anyone on here cannot predict what exactly will happen in the future - staying in the EU could help the UK
		
Click to expand...

Leaving could be better!!!!!!

I cannot speak for Scotland and Wales. I don't live there.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			If I've got out of the UK then I have the right to travel. They do not need to see my passport.

I'm about to boost their pityful economy, they need me, I require their sun. Let me get in and start boosting. 
When we vote out and Greece and Portugal and Italy will not be able to be supported by the EU, watch the prices fall in those countries as the pound soars !!!
		
Click to expand...


Flying from the UK doesn't mean that you're British..


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			With your charming attitude I have absolutely no idea why that would be.

Whereas whenever I've visited, it's been exceptionally quick, with helpful friendly staff, *who give me a lovely smile*. 

Must be coincidence...
		
Click to expand...

More lies.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			More lies.
		
Click to expand...

Hahah the worst thing is, it actually isn't. It helps if you smile at them first, rather than getting angry they want to see your passport (I cannot for the life of me understand your logic with that - do you get annoyed if non-EU countries want to see your passport? Do you get annoyed showing your passport when coming back into the UK?)

I'm not going to dispute that they don't smile at you. All I will add though, is that based on this brief internet encounter, I doubt I would be anything other than blank faced to you either. Do you raise your voice and start shouting when they don't understand you?


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hahah the worst thing is, it actually isn't. It helps if you smile at them first, rather than getting angry they want to see your passport (I cannot for the life of me understand your logic with that - do you get annoyed if non-EU countries want to see your passport? *Do you get annoyed showing your passport when coming back into the UK?*)

I'm not going to dispute that they don't smile at you. All I will add though, is that based on this brief internet encounter, I doubt I would be anything other than blank faced to you either. Do you raise your voice and start shouting when they don't understand you?
		
Click to expand...

This is what I'm so perplexed about? How can someone moan about having to show their password and being looked at like a piece of dirt...yet the passport controllers are EXACTLY the same when you come back to the UK. 

HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME SHOW MY PASSPORT COMING BACK INTO MY OWN COUNTRY! BROKEN BRITAIN!!!!!!!!

I've never known Xenophobia like I've read on this thread, it's really quite depressing.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hahah the worst thing is, it actually isn't. It helps if you smile at them first, rather than getting angry they want to see your passport (I cannot for the life of me understand your logic with that - do you get annoyed if non-EU countries want to see your passport? Do you get annoyed showing your passport when coming back into the UK?)

I'm not going to dispute that they don't smile at you. All I will add though, is that based on this brief internet encounter, I doubt I would be anything other than blank faced to you either. Do you raise your voice and start shouting when they don't understand you?
		
Click to expand...

No I wish I could speak their language.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			This is what I'm so perplexed about? How can someone moan about having to show their password and being looked at like a piece of dirt...yet the passport controllers are EXACTLY the same when you come back to the UK. 

HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME SHOW MY PASSPORT COMING BACK INTO MY OWN COUNTRY! BROKEN BRITAIN!!!!!!!!

I've never known Xenophobia like I've read on this thread, it's really quite depressing.
		
Click to expand...

They show their passports to get in here because we didn't sign up to the schengen agreement. How did this happen?


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hahah the worst thing is, it actually isn't. It helps if you smile at them first, rather than getting angry they want to see your passport (I cannot for the life of me understand your logic with that - do you get annoyed if non-EU countries want to see your passport? Do you get annoyed showing your passport when coming back into the UK?)

I'm not going to dispute that they don't smile at you. All I will add though, is that based on this brief internet encounter, I doubt I would be anything other than blank faced to you either. Do you raise your voice and start shouting when they don't understand you?
		
Click to expand...

Show your passport?

Have you heard of the new E-passport machines. I have been abroad 7 or 8 times this year and haven't shown my passport coming back to Heathrow once. The machines are not very chatty, though, to be fair.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Show your passport?

Have you heard of the new E-passport machines. I have been abroad 7 or 8 times this year and haven't shown my passport coming back to Heathrow once. The machines are not very chatty, though, to be fair.
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is, you always get some knob who can't fathom out how to use them and delays everyone more than they would by actually going to one of the miserable Border Control people.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Show your passport?

Have you heard of the new E-passport machines. I have been abroad 7 or 8 times this year and haven't shown my passport coming back to Heathrow once. The machines are not very chatty, though, to be fair.
		
Click to expand...

I'm a bit behind the times, I've only just upgraded to the e-passport. Excited to use it for the first time.

Am I allowed to get annoyed if the machine doesn't smile?


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I am proud of my country, AND I have ambitions for it to grow. I can't see past the controls put in place by the EU not helping that growth. Simple things like us having control of what industries we can subsidise to make them competitive in the emerging global market. Try getting a subsidy past the EU without going there first.

And yes, you have seriously missed something if you think we have control. I know how many times my #1 daughter has to go back and forth to Brussels when we're trying to write legislation. Control?! I could sit and tell you story after story of the trips to Brussles over various trade laws, e.g. the car scrappage scheme and the Post Office sell off. Control?! 

*I know I said it above but I'll say it again*, you are seriously deluded if you think we have control of the vast majority of our law making. Split hairs if you want and say we pass it in our Parliament, which we do, but the reality is its a dilution of the laws we originally wanted. 

Sorry Phil but you haven't got a clue. We pass laws that we are allowed to pass. Its a rubberstamping exercise on something that has to be agreed in Brussels. Control?! Give over..
		
Click to expand...

You should be a politician. They mostly also believe that repeating a lie makes it true too. 

The line about EU making laws has been proven to be nonsense, as has the line about Â£350 million a week, and just about every other promise the Brexiteers have made. Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides because she is so sick of the Leave side's lies. 

And I seem to remember it was the evil witch (Thatcher) who destroyed manufacturing in this country, not the EU, so there aren't too many left to subsidise. Many of those who are here would not be here if the UK was not in the EU.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You should be a politician. They mostly also believe that repeating a lie makes it true too. 

The line about EU making laws has been proven to be nonsense, as has the line about Â£350 million a week, and just about every other promise the Brexiteers have made. Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides because she is so sick of the Leave side's lies. 

And I seem to remember it was the evil witch (Thatcher) who destroyed manufacturing in this country, not the EU, so there aren't too many left to subsidise. Many of those who are here would not be here if the UK was not in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I wish there was a function to 'like' posts on here...but instead I'll quote for posterity. Absolutely spot on. 

Absolutely terrified of the Xenophobic "LETS TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY" attitude that I'm seeing more and more of the last few weeks.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I am proud of my country, AND I have ambitions for it to grow. I can't see past the controls put in place by the EU not helping that growth. Simple things like us having control of what industries we can subsidise to make them competitive in the emerging global market. Try getting a subsidy past the EU without going there first.

And yes, you have seriously missed something if you think we have control. I know how many times my #1 daughter has to go back and forth to Brussels when we're trying to write legislation. Control?! I could sit and tell you story after story of the trips to Brussles over various trade laws, e.g. the car scrappage scheme and the Post Office sell off. Control?! 

I know I said it above but I'll say it again, you are seriously deluded if you think we have control of the vast majority of our law making. Split hairs if you want and say we pass it in our Parliament, which we do, but the reality is its a dilution of the laws we originally wanted. 

Sorry Phil but you haven't got a clue. We pass laws that we are allowed to pass. Its a rubberstamping exercise on something that has to be agreed in Brussels. Control?! Give over..
		
Click to expand...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-freedom-from-laws-sovereignty-a7064526.html

Maybe it's somewhere in the middle


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Absolutely terrified of the Xenophobic "LETS TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY" attitude that I'm seeing more and more of the last few weeks.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be confusing xenephobes with people who actually care about what the country will be like in 30 or 40 years time, rather than the short sighted "my holiday may go up by Â£50" squad who I'm more concerned about.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			You seem to be confusing xenephobes with people who actually care about what the country will be like in 30 or 40 years time, rather than the short sighted "my holiday may go up by Â£50" squad who I'm more concerned about.
		
Click to expand...

Haha, ok? I'm definitely not confused, but thanks for your concern. I've yet to see concrete evidence that this country will be better off if we leave the EU. All of the crap that's been posted through my door has been UKIP themed propaganda and scaremongering about how nasty immigrants are going to take over my country.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			You seem to be confusing xenephobes with people who actually care about what the country will be like in 30 or 40 years time, rather than the short sighted "my holiday may go up by Â£50" squad who I'm more concerned about.
		
Click to expand...

How will if go up by Â£50 when the other countries will collapse without our monitary input, the pound will soar the Euro bombs, everything is cheap as chips again in Greece, albeit full of migrants, who they will shift out once they have control back, and we can go back to sunny cheap holidays !!!! Whoooo !!


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Haha, ok? I'm definitely not confused, but thanks for your concern. I've yet to see concrete evidence that this country will be better off if we leave the EU. All of the crap that's been posted through my door has been UKIP themed propaganda and scaremongering about how nasty immigrants are going to take over my country.
		
Click to expand...

I also have yet to see any real evidence that we will be better off by staying in. The Â£350 million may not be right, but it's about Â£200 million A WEEK so that a start. Should buy a few things.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You should be a politician. They mostly also believe that repeating a lie makes it true too. 

The line about EU making laws has been proven to be nonsense, as has the line about Â£350 million a week, and just about every other promise the Brexiteers have made. Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides because she is so sick of the Leave side's lies. 

And I seem to remember it was the evil witch (Thatcher) who destroyed manufacturing in this country, not the EU, so there aren't too many left to subsidise. Many of those who are here would not be here if the UK was not in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

whatever...


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			I wish there was a function to 'like' posts on here...but instead I'll quote for posterity. Absolutely spot on. 

Absolutely terrified of the Xenophobic "LETS TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY" attitude that I'm seeing more and more of the last few weeks.
		
Click to expand...

I think there is a huge difference in attitude between the sides. I don't know any 'Remain' people who feel passionately about the EU or Brussels or any of the elements of being in the EU. They mostly see it as a pragmatic and imperfect but basically positive thing.

But on the 'Leave' side, zut alors, quel difference!. Brexiteers feel very strongly about making Britain great again (whether that means), controlling our own destiny (see previous parenthesis), the sovereignty of Westminster which up until a short time ago they hated as a cesspit of corruption and corporate self-interest. They moan about the pressure on the NHS, schools and public services but many voted for a Govt intent on reducing funding to all of those. And as has happened repeatedly over history, they have been distracted from domestic politics and their own fecklessness and told to blame immigrants. This is the oldest tactic in the book, and is especially liked by right wing governments. It is much easier than actually doing something to improve these public services. 

Instead of leaving the EU, we should leave the Tories behind. That would do a lot to start to move to sorting the problems that are getting everyone riled up and taking it out on the wrong targets.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I think there is a huge difference in attitude between the sides. I don't know any 'Remain' people who feel passionately about the EU or Brussels or any of the elements of being in the EU. They mostly see it as a pragmatic and imperfect but basically positive thing.

But on the 'Leave' side, zut alors, quel difference!. Brexiteers feel very strongly about making Britain great again (whether that means), controlling our own destiny (see previous parenthesis), the sovereignty of Westminster which up until a short time ago they hated as a cesspit of corruption and corporate self-interest. They moan about the pressure on the NHS, schools and public services but many voted for a Govt intent on reducing funding to all of those. And as has happened repeatedly over history, they have been distracted from domestic politics and their own fecklessness and told to blame immigrants. This is the oldest tactic in the book, and is especially liked by right wing governments. It is much easier than actually doing something to improve these public services. 

Instead of leaving the EU, we should leave the Tories behind. That would do a lot to start to move to sorting the problems that are getting everyone riled up and taking it out on the wrong targets.
		
Click to expand...

Nail on head.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides because she is so sick of the Leave side's lies.
		
Click to expand...

Been offered a cabinet post more likely. The remain campaign are desperate to get some mementum in the SW as it is heavily in favour of an out  vote.

When she wanted us all out her main focus was on farming and fisheries, what's changed there to make her so anxious to change.

Next Health Minister more likely.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I also have yet to see any real evidence that we will be better off by staying in. The Â£350 million may not be right, but it's about Â£200 million A WEEK so that a start. Should buy a few things.
		
Click to expand...

So it's not Â£350 million a week, but it's definitely about Â£200 million a week? Where did you pluck that figure from?


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Haha, ok? I'm definitely not confused, but thanks for your concern. I've yet to see concrete evidence that this country will be better off if we leave the EU. All of the crap that's been posted through my door has been UKIP themed propaganda and scaremongering about how nasty immigrants are going to take over my country.
		
Click to expand...

There's "crap" on both sides of the fence, I just think it's easy/lazy to call the Brexiters xenophobes/racists.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			whatever...
		
Click to expand...

A vacuous response entirely typical of you and the Brexit side, displaying the same analytical rigour and careful thought that you have applied to the issues in the referendum. Thanks for confirming.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...We have no control on EU migration...
		
Click to expand...

A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).


SocketRocket said:



			...we have no control in our justice system...
		
Click to expand...

What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?


SocketRocket said:



			...we have no control on new laws being imposed on us...
		
Click to expand...

What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.


SocketRocket said:



			...we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country...
		
Click to expand...

Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Nail on head.
		
Click to expand...

More like Head on Nail


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).

What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?

What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.

Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!
		
Click to expand...

What bit of 'I don't want to discuss anything with you ever again as you are odd' don't you get!    You were politely told to behave yourself recently, maybe you need to do just that as I will not discuss anything with you anymore.   Get it!!


----------



## jp5 (Jun 9, 2016)

That's a shame, they were quite genuine questions I was hoping to see answers to from someone on the Leave side. 

And you're one of the more reasonable ones, SocketRocket!


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			There's "crap" on both sides of the fence, I just think it's easy/lazy to call the Brexiters xenophobes/racists.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^^^This.  It's the default fall back response by the Remain lobby at any time they find themselves losing an argument.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a shame, they were quite genuine questions I was hoping to see answers to from someone on the Leave side. 

And you're one of the more reasonable ones, SocketRocket!
		
Click to expand...

If you want to ask a question thats a different matter


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want to ask a question thats a different matter
		
Click to expand...

_image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...We have no control on EU migration...

_

A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control in our justice system...

_

What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on new laws being imposed on us...

_

What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country...

_

Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!


Can you reply to me please?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What bit of 'I don't want to discuss anything with you ever again as you are odd' don't you get!    You were politely told to behave yourself recently, maybe you need to do just that as I will not discuss anything with you anymore.   Get it!! 

Click to expand...

I know, lets make this easier.  I'm clicking the button that puts you on my 'ignore list' so I dont have to see your posts anymore.   Great!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's a shame, they were quite genuine questions I was hoping to see answers to from someone on the Leave side. 

And you're one of the more reasonable ones, SocketRocket!
		
Click to expand...

Agreed they are genuine sensible questions


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



_image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...We have no control on EU migration...

_

A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control in our justice system...

_

What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on new laws being imposed on us...

_

What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country...

_

Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!


Can you reply to me please?

Click to expand...

Your post has come over as a lot of unreadable links.


----------



## IanM (Jun 9, 2016)

I find myself despairing at some of the commentary on this.  

Regardless, Remain will win, and by far more than the polls suggest.  The EU have spent much money and time to ensure it and our Government will not allow an exit anyway.  Funny how the registration system fell over this week and ballots went out to certain folk not entitled to them.  Who'd have predicted that?

The EU will eventually unravel regardless of the result of this Referendum.  It will simply run out of cash and the "less politically correct" Eastern European States won't be as compliant as the more Liberal Western Ones.   Frau Merkel has also set a time bomb ticking in Germany.  Wonder why? (Genuinely wonder why....) 

Good luck folks... this is going very smelly very quickly... book your tickets for New Zealand!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?

Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

Here's a fairly convincing argument for why UK has MORE control over criminals - both foreign and UK born!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-return-to-costa-del-crime-days-a6926461.html


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Show your passport?

Have you heard of the new E-passport machines. I have been abroad 7 or 8 times this year and haven't shown my passport coming back to Heathrow once. The machines are not very chatty, though, to be fair.
		
Click to expand...

Stick to Heathrow, the ones in Gatwick continue to fail.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

*Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?*

Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Because they are the very things they accuse others of.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?
*
Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.*

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.
		
Click to expand...

That seems completely a completely fair and reasonable argument....

The trouble is, a majority of the leave camp paint themselves as one or all of the above, whether they realise it or not. - I'm not going to point fingers, but if you look at some of the previous posts on this thread from some of the leave-campers, they come across as VERY Xenophobic.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Stick to Heathrow, the ones in Gatwick continue to fail.
		
Click to expand...

Glad it's not just me then. Took ages to get back from skiing in Austria in Feb, because the machines weren't working correctly.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			The trouble is, a majority of the leave camp paint themselves as one or all of the above, whether they realise it or not. - I'm not going to point fingers, but if you look at some of the previous posts on this thread from some of the leave-campers, they come across as VERY Xenophobic.
		
Click to expand...

But the Remainers seem unable to differentiate between folk being proud and having faith in our country to run itself, with xenophobia and racism. As mentioned before, it's just a lazy get out, rather than debating the issues.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			But the Remainers seem unable to differentiate between folk being proud and having faith in our country to run itself, with xenophobia and racism. As mentioned before, it's just a lazy get out, rather than debating the issues.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on :thup:


----------



## jp5 (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone brandish all leave voters with those terms, and it would be wrong to do so.

It is absolutely correct however to call out xenophobic views, regardless of voting intention.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?

Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Thouroughly laudable (and applaudable ) reason! I may or my not agree with your opinion (or reasoning), but certainly agree with the need for a referendum!

There should have been one before the Lisbon Treaty (or even Maastricht and ) was ratified imo! The fact that there wasn't demonstrates, to me, the fear by the supposed 'democratically elected' regime in the UK at the time (Labour for Lisbon; Conservatives for Maastricht) simply ignored 'real' democracy - imo, fearing that a referendum might produce 'the wrong result'!


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?

Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are none of those. Some are easier to judge than others, though. But if you were all or most of those, you would be a Brexiteer. 

The line about what was voted for in the 70s is technically true, but seems to be bogged down in a historical context. Life has moved on since then and the current economy and globalised place we now find ourselves was unforeseeable then. Back then, Google was rubbish and you had to order stuff from Amazon with a pen and paper. Progress requires taking account of changing circumstances and updating opinions accordingly.

So it is fine to say that you don't like the structures of the EU right now in the context of all the issues that now prevail, but I think we need to let go of what people in 1975 may have or may not have voted for.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			...Progress requires taking account of changing circumstances and updating opinions accordingly.

So it is fine to say that you don't like the structures of the EU right now in the context of all the issues that now prevail, but I think we need to let go of what people in 1975 may have or may not have voted for.
		
Click to expand...

That's why it should be enshrined in UK policy (or law) that a referendum must be held to ratify any EU Treaty!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's why it should be enshrined in UK policy (or law) that a referendum must be held to ratify any EU Treaty!
		
Click to expand...

Which I believe it now is.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Perhaps you are none of those.
		
Click to expand...

You just can't help youself.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's why it should be enshrined in UK policy (or law) that a referendum must be held to ratify any EU Treaty!
		
Click to expand...

I think the current debacle is all the evidence we need that referenda are not the way ahead. A series of preposterous statements, wild speculation and downright lies from both sides have left an ill informed public none the wiser when it comes to how to vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			That seems completely a completely fair and reasonable argument....

The trouble is, a majority of the leave camp paint themselves as one or all of the above, whether they realise it or not. - I'm not going to point fingers, but if you look at some of the previous posts on this thread from some of the leave-campers, they come across as VERY Xenophobic.
		
Click to expand...


This constant accusation of Xenophobic views from the Leave Camp is a rather broad brush used as a blunt instrument.   People should be able to filter the difference between immigration concerns and Racial Hatred.  I believe that too many people in the Stay Camp are using this word a bit too freely and without due cause.  I don't see many posts suggesting (Openly or disguised) that people of a certain Race should not come here, it's nearly always about numbers. As a matter of fact some of the most Xenophobic nations are members of the EU, just take a look at the attitudes of Eastern European countries if you want to see Xenophobia in action.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think the current debacle is all the evidence we need that referenda are not the way ahead. A series of preposterous statements, wild speculation and downright lies from both sides have left an ill informed public none the wiser when it comes to how to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Without going to the extent of the Swiss, I believe it's *because* of the rarity of referendums that such diabolical behavior happens! It may be wishful thinking (newspapers will still be well placed to 'guide' their readers), but I believe more referendums would both expose the true nature of the politicians and (perhaps) get the general public more involved in the democratic process!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think the current debacle is all the evidence we need that referenda are not the way ahead. A series of preposterous statements, wild speculation and downright lies from both sides have left an ill informed public none the wiser when it comes to how to vote.
		
Click to expand...

I think that's correct.   from my perspective the problem has been the way the Referendum was rushed through so as to not allow enough time for either side to create suitable honest information, coupled with a government that did not make a strong enough set of negotiations with the EU such that a clear case could be presented as to the more likely effects of either decision.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You just can't help youself.
		
Click to expand...

Oh come on, you sneak a look at The Daily Mail now and again.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not 
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated 

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?

Im voting out for one reason only.* The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws*.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.
		
Click to expand...

A bit confused .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in.. 
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

vkurup said:



*A bit confused* .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in.. 
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules
		
Click to expand...


Not for the first time.

Answer to your question - Yes. Or possibly no. It all depends. 

Hope that has cleared it all up for you.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

Fish said:



			I agree, I always employed those who put themselves out to work even though it was obvious it wasn't for them rather than waiting for that special position that's going to come around....!

I've never not worked, before I opened my business and when I was creating the business and fitting it out for months prior to opening, I was working nights at ToysRUs stacking pallets and loading lorries, I did some door knocking for our local paper trying to sign people up and also leaflet distribution, all this was nights or late afternoon so it didn't get into the way of what I needed to do in the day, the same as anyone who needs a full day to apply for jobs from home! 

It's too easy to make excuses and blame everyone and anything but yourself, I wouldn't give him a second look!
		
Click to expand...

Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.  

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone.  But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment.  But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.  

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck.  And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way.  And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept.  And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his Â£57 a week.  Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.  

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son.  For Â£57 a week.  And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but  the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way.  The Tories repulse me.  And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him.  She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also.  Absolutely sickening way to treat people.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Oh come on, you sneak a look at The Daily Mail now and again.
		
Click to expand...

Only when you leave your copy lying about.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

vkurup said:



			If we vote to stay in.. 
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules
		
Click to expand...

Who knows, we have got this far by stealth and deception.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

vkurup said:



			A bit confused .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in.. 
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, *continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR*, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules
		
Click to expand...

You are, indeed, confused!

ECHR is completely separate from the EU!!!

As for the rest...well we'll continue to be an EU State! And No, we'll still use Sterling as currency! Oh! And the perception that things are 'dictated by Brussels' is simply wrong! It's all very democratic!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



_image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...We have no control on EU migration...

_

A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control in our justice system...

_

What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on new laws being imposed on us...

_

What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.
_
image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png





 Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png





...we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country...

_

Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!


Can you reply to me please?

Click to expand...

Although your post is a mess I will try to answer the points.  It may take a few posts as I am working now and have little time to do it.

.We have no control on EU migration..

There is no question about this as long as we are members of the EU we have no control of how many EU Citizens come to live here.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Although your post is a mess I will try to answer the points.  It may take a few posts as I am working now and have little time to do it.

.We have no control on EU migration..

There is no question about this as long as we are members of the EU we have no control of how many EU Citizens come to live here.
		
Click to expand...

If you'd prefer, you can quote Foxholers original post, where it is laid out much better


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.
		
Click to expand...

But the Tories can be held accountable and if the populace wish, can be voted out at the next election. If we don't like what the EU imposes on us, tough, nothing the people of the UK can do about it. That is the main reason for leaving imo.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			If you'd prefer, you can quote Foxholers original post, where it is laid out much better
		
Click to expand...

Cant see it he's on my ignore list.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.  

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone.  But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment.  But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.  

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck.  And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way.  And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept.  And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his Â£57 a week.  Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.  

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son.  For Â£57 a week.  And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but  the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way.  The Tories repulse me.  And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him.  She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also.  Absolutely sickening way to treat people.
		
Click to expand...

So you must be against all the UK immigrants coming over as it sounds from you there are no jobs for them to do and they will all end up on JSA.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.  

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone.  But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment.  But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.  

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck.  And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way.  And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept.  And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his Â£57 a week.  Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.  

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son.  For Â£57 a week.  And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but  the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way.  The Tories repulse me.  And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him.  She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also.  Absolutely sickening way to treat people.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously you know the facts better than me, but I also know teenagers/20'somethings. 6 jobs a day, 7 days a week, is 42 jobs a week. Do that for 3 months (13 weeks - so not that long at all) and he has applied for 546 jobs. 

After 546 job applications either: a) he is exaggerating how many he applied for, b) he is applying for the wrong jobs (if he has been turned down by 546 bar jobs then there is an underlying issue with his applications), or c) he is in the wrong area, and needs to move.

I would also point out that it isn't unpaid at Tesco, as he gets his JSA (although it would be a rubbish hourly rate, which I agree is horrendous. How many hours are they expecting him to work? I'd be surprised if it's 40 hours p/w!)

You point out he is trying to get his business up and running but it isn't working, maybe it's worth assessing if it's a reasonable business plan (again, is it the plan, the area, or your son not putting in as much effort as he thinks he is).

I completely understand that on the face of it this individual circumstance can appear very unfair, but there are some rules for a reason. If your son is only applying for "nice" positions, why is it on the taxpayer to fund that?


edit: Just to point out, i don't want to appear like i'm attacking your son, just looking at it hypothetically, which obviously you won't be, you'll be looking at the facts more (albeit with an inherent bias, which i'm sure you already know)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I think there is a huge difference in attitude between the sides. I don't know any 'Remain' people who feel passionately about the EU or Brussels or any of the elements of being in the EU. They mostly see it as a pragmatic and imperfect but basically positive thing.

But on the 'Leave' side, zut alors, quel difference!. Brexiteers feel very strongly about making Britain great again (whether that means), controlling our own destiny (see previous parenthesis), the sovereignty of Westminster which up until a short time ago they hated as a cesspit of corruption and corporate self-interest. They moan about the pressure on the NHS, schools and public services but many voted for a Govt intent on reducing funding to all of those. And as has happened repeatedly over history, they have been distracted from domestic politics and their own fecklessness and told to blame immigrants. This is the oldest tactic in the book, and is especially liked by right wing governments. It is much easier than actually doing something to improve these public services. 

Instead of leaving the EU, we should leave the Tories behind. That would do a lot to start to move to sorting the problems that are getting everyone riled up and taking it out on the wrong targets.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			But the Tories can be held accountable and if the populace wish, can be voted out at the next election. If we don't like what the EU imposes on us, tough, nothing the people of the UK can do about it. That is the main reason for leaving imo.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So you must be against all the *UK immigrants* coming over as it sounds from you there are no jobs for them to do and they will all end up on JSA.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming that it's meant to be 'EU immigrants'...The actual figures show that that statement is wrong, and the vast majority either have a job to go to or find work (even zero hour contract ones) very quickly.

@SILH. My sympathy to your son and his G/F! That treatment is obscene!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed
		
Click to expand...

But your son have been given the chance to find the job he wants, and he has been unsuccessful. He needs to broaden his scope of what he's willing to accept. 

He still has a choice! Take anything or no JSA. And there's no reason why he still can't look when he's with Tesco's. I can't see why the state is at fault.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Obviously you know the facts better than me, but I also know teenagers/20'somethings. 6 jobs a day, 7 days a week, is 42 jobs a week. Do that for 3 months (13 weeks - so not that long at all) and he has applied for 546 jobs. 

After 546 job applications either: a) he is exaggerating how many he applied for, b) he is applying for the wrong jobs (if he has been turned down by 546 bar jobs then there is an underlying issue with his applications), or c) he is in the wrong area, and needs to move.

I would also point out that it isn't unpaid at Tesco, as he gets his JSA (although it would be a rubbish hourly rate, which I agree is horrendous. How many hours are they expecting him to work? I'd be surprised if it's 40 hours p/w!)

You point out he is trying to get his business up and running but it isn't working, maybe it's worth assessing if it's a reasonable business plan (again, is it the plan, the area, or your son not putting in as much effort as he thinks he is).

I completely understand that on the face of it this individual circumstance can appear very unfair, but there are some rules for a reason. If your son is only applying for "nice" positions, why is it on the taxpayer to fund that?


edit: Just to point out, i don't want to appear like i'm attacking your son, just looking at it hypothetically, which obviously you won't be, you'll be looking at the facts more (albeit with an inherent bias, which i'm sure you already know)
		
Click to expand...

It's 37.5 hours a week he is expected to work at Tesco for his Â£57.

And he has no choice - I don't know the agreement he has with his work Coach and what he signed up to in his Claimant Commitment, and if that is 6 jobs a day (maybe on average) then that is what he has been doing.  In wrong area - Sheffield?  Possibly.  But if he is going to get his business back up and running and getting himself off the dole then his best chance is with him staying in Sheffield.

And I might say that I would expect the taxpayer to fund him Â£57 a week - because I am a taxpayer and claiming nothing and fortunately have never had to.  But I expect a bit of humanity, consideration and respect to be shown to someone who has got himself a degree (and racked up the debts); has tried to start up a business of his own, and who has shown real commitment to getting a job.  

And why his girlfriend has had HER JSA stopped also because of his turning down a 'job' I just don't get at all - apparently because they are at the same address and signed-on jointly (for whatever reason)

What are they supposed to live on - fresh air?  The whole system stinks.

...and he still has to pay his Â£100 a month council tax...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

But my son aside - absolute gob-smacking to hear many Brexiteers complaining about the extension to the deadline to register to vote.  Quite staggering that they want to deny the vote to people who have a right to vote and want to vote - and missed it for whatever reason.  Surely it is so much more important to get the greatest number of folk possible voting as that simply strengthens the mandate for the result - whatever it is.


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's 37.5 hours a week he is expected to work at Tesco for his Â£57.

And he has no choice - I don't know the agreement he has with his work Coach and what he signed up to in his Claimant Commitment, and if that is 6 jobs a day (maybe on average) then that is what he has been doing.  In wrong area - Sheffield?  Possibly.  But if he is going to get his business back up and running and getting himself off the dole then his best chance is with him staying in Sheffield.

And I might say that I would expect the taxpayer to fund him Â£57 a week - because I am a taxpayer and claiming nothing and fortunately have never had to.  But I expect a bit of humanity, consideration and respect to be shown to someone who has got himself a degree (and racked up the debts); has tried to start up a business of his own, and who has shown real commitment to getting a job.  

And why his girlfriend has had HER JSA stopped also because of his turning down a 'job' I just don't get at all - apparently because they are at the same address and signed-on jointly (for whatever reason)

What are they supposed to live on - fresh air?  The whole system stinks.
		
Click to expand...

I sympathise with his position, however look at it from another point of view (devil's advocate almost)

What on earth is he doing (or not) to be applying for 6 jobs a day and not get any of them?  Has he/you seriously thought about why this is the case and what he could do differently/better to improve his chances?  Almost any type of job would pay him more than Â£57 a week, even minimum wage stuff.

If (not saying this is the case) he is turning jobs down then why should the state continue to fund (albeit a pitiful amount) him waiting for a perfect job to arrive?

I'm fully supportive of paying my tax into the/a welfare state (despite my own ridiculous position re my daughter and I agree the current system isn't great if you take personal stories) however within limits, that being it is a "safety net" for people to get back into any employment asap.

Edit: This isn't meant to be as harsh as it may sound.  I know from personal experience how frustrating "the state" can be however also appreciate that the system that is in place (not JSA) works for the majority.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But my son aside - absolute gob-smacking to hear many Brexiteers complaining about the extension to the deadline to register to vote.  Quite staggering that they want to deny the vote to people who have a right to vote and want to vote - and missed it for whatever reason.  Surely it is so much more important to get the greatest number of folk possible voting as that simply strengthens the mandate for the result - whatever it is.
		
Click to expand...

Word is that there may be a legal challenge to extending the deadline.
And let's not forget that the system crashed a couple of hours before the deadline. People have had weeks to register. If they're leaving it to that late in the day you have to question whether they actually want to vote or are registering just because it's the "right" thing to do.
There's always exceptions - people move house and have to re-register but the majority  of those who"missed" the original deadline - have they been living under a rock for the last 3 months? Have they packed their bags, headed for the woods, built a rudimentary toilet and become an off-grid spoon whittler...? One girl who was interviewed on the box the other morning said she'd been meaning to register for a week or two but just "hadn't got round to it" - well that strikes me that you're not really interested...

If there is a challenge it'll throw the cat amongst the pigeons for sure.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			I sympathise with his position, however look at it from another point of view (devil's advocate almost)

What on earth is he doing (or not) to be applying for 6 jobs a day and not get any of them?  Has he/you seriously thought about why this is the case and what he could do differently/better to improve his chances?  Almost any type of job would pay him more than Â£57 a week, even minimum wage stuff.

If (not saying this is the case) he is turning jobs down then why should the state continue to fund (albeit a pitiful amount) him waiting for a perfect job to arrive?

I'm fully supportive of paying my tax into the/a welfare state (despite my own ridiculous position re my daughter and I agree the current system isn't great if you take personal stories) however within limits, that being it is a "safety net" for people to get back into any employment asap.
		
Click to expand...

I'm a supporter of the Welfare State, but there is an old adage that I believe strongly in. "It's easier to find a job whilst already working". 
@Swingsitlikehogan - I sympathise and understand your Son's position. However, working in any environment can only strengthen his position. It shows drive, commitment and a healthy work ethic.


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I'm a supporter of the Welfare State, but there is an old adage that I believe strongly in. "It's easier to find a job whilst already working". 
@Swingsitlikehogan - I sympathise and understand your Son's position. However, working in any environment can only strengthen his position. It shows drive, commitment and a healthy work ethic.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:

Couldn't agree more


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But my son aside - absolute gob-smacking to hear many Brexiteers complaining about the extension to the deadline to register to vote.  Quite staggering that they want to deny the vote to people who have a right to vote and want to vote - and missed it for whatever reason.  Surely it is so much more important to get the greatest number of folk possible voting as that simply strengthens the mandate for the result - whatever it is.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree - What I find funny is the people on the news who tried to register half an hour before the deadline and complain about there not being enough time to register because of the problems with the website, and now they're not going to be able to vote...it's not like this referendum has crept up on us, why on earth did they not register at some point in the last 3 months?! 

But I don't, in principle, have a problem with giving the most amount of people possible the chance to share their voice.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 9, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Word is that there may be a legal challenge to extending the deadline.
And let's not forget that the system crashed a couple of hours before the deadline. People have had weeks to register. If they're leaving it to that late in the day you have to question whether they actually want to vote or are registering just because it's the "right" thing to do.
There's always exceptions - people move house and have to re-register but the majority  of those who"missed" the original deadline - have they been living under a rock for the last 3 months? Have they packed their bags, headed for the woods, built a rudimentary toilet and become an off-grid spoon whittler...? One girl who was interviewed on the box the other morning said she'd been meaning to register for a week or two but just "hadn't got round to it" - well that strikes me that you're not really interested...

If there is a challenge it'll throw the cat amongst the pigeons for sure.
		
Click to expand...

that'll teach me to skim read...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Although your post is a mess I will try to answer the points.  It may take a few posts as I am working now and have little time to do it.

.We have no control on EU migration..

There is no question about this as long as we are members of the EU we have no control of how many EU Citizens come to live here.
		
Click to expand...

Regarding my points on Justice and EU Law:

Please read this link:
https://www.tutorhunt.com/resource/13870/


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding my points on Justice and EU Law:

Please read this link:
https://www.tutorhunt.com/resource/13870/

Click to expand...

*Oh I do thank you!!*



Ethan said:



			You should be a politician. They mostly also believe that repeating a lie makes it true too. 

The line about EU making laws has been proven to be nonsense, as has the line about Â£350 million a week, and just about every other promise the Brexiteers have made. Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides because she is so sick of the Leave side's lies. 

And I seem to remember it was the evil witch (Thatcher) who destroyed manufacturing in this country, not the EU, so there aren't too many left to subsidise. Many of those who are here would not be here if the UK was not in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

C'mon then Ethan, am I still a liar? I can't believe you could be wrong!! No, no apology necessary.

I guess Aztec will be taking back his "like" now that its been proven to be wrong...


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding my points on Justice and EU Law:

Please read this link:
https://www.tutorhunt.com/resource/13870/

Click to expand...

The concept that EU law has supremacy over National law is clearly enshrined in the various treaties!

However, the concept of 'subsidiarity' means that the overwhelming majority of National laws are fine - it's only when they conflict with EU wide ones (such as Border Control) that there's a 'problem'!

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ftu/pdf/en/FTU_1.2.2.pdf

That's why I believe there should have been a referendum before ratifying the Maastricht Treaty - which enshrined both subsidiarity and (I believe) the supremacy of EU law.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I'm a supporter of the Welfare State, but there is an old adage that I believe strongly in. "It's easier to find a job whilst already working". 
@Swingsitlikehogan - I sympathise and understand your Son's position. However, working in any environment can only strengthen his position. It shows drive, commitment and a healthy work ethic.
		
Click to expand...

He had a job for a year - but decided to go it himself.  Didn't work out.  Now trying to find something, and he is not being that fussy.  He has had a few interviews, but if you have to apply for say 6 jobs a day to maintain your JSA - and it doesn't matter what you apply for - then you will apply for a lot you won't have a chance of getting.  

As it happens he and his g/friend are probably going to come back down south a live with us for a couple of weeks - maybe a couple of times during this summer -  as it is quite easy to get temp work in Surrey - a lot easier than it is in Sheffield. Now there's a surprise.  He is sick to the teeth of being on the dole and having so little money.  

I do wonder though what they DWP think folks like my son and his girlfriend can actually live on when their JSA is stopped - they can apply for a hardship payment but what that is god only knows if Â£57 a week is viewed by IDS and Grayling as generous.  Does he go robbing and his girlfriend go onto the street?

And out of the EU and workers rights are viewed as optional when at the moment likes of Tesco can provide the Job Center with almost limitless numbers of vacancies for unpaid work - great...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2016)

and given that one of the cornerstones of Leave argument is EU lack of accountability, democratic mandate etc etc.  And now we hear Leave claiming conspiracy!  foul! cheat! Court action! over extending the time for registration to allow the maximum number of people who want to vote the opportunity to so so.  It would be laughable if it wasn't so worrying as it suggests a mindset of almost almost fanatical madness and paranoia


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed
		
Click to expand...

I sympathize with your son's predicament. That is no way to treat a young man looking to work. Unfortunately, that is the exact argument often put forward by those who welcome mass immigration. We need the migrants to do these jobs that the British are unwilling to do. Total rubbish of course, it's the influx of migrants that have enabled firms and the government to offer such miserly pay, forcing youngsters like your son to rely on parents.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and given that one of the cornerstones of Leave argument is EU lack of accountability, democratic mandate etc etc.  And now we hear Leave claiming conspiracy!  foul! cheat! Court action! over extending the time for registration to allow the maximum number of people who want to vote the opportunity to so so.  It would be laughable if it wasn't so worrying as it suggests a mindset of almost almost fanatical madness and paranoia
		
Click to expand...

There was a deadline.
It was extremely well publicised
We had months to ensure we were eligible to vote...the referendum was announced in February 
So what's going to happen if a bus load of people turn up at a polling station and are queueing to get in at 9.59pm..?
Keep them open another hour??
Not going to happen 

Seriously, if someone's waiting until, literally, minutes before the deadline then they get what they deserve....
And if it means they don't get a vote then they've only got themselves to blame - with a few exceptions (but not many).
How many people will now wait until 5 minutes before the end of this deadline to register..? Some people will miss it..do we extend it again..?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2016)

The Leavers seem quite annoyed that the voting registration date was extended by a day due to a computer glitch.

I would have thought that they would have been delighted to have the opportunity to gather all those additional votes.


----------



## Fish (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.  

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone.  But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment.  But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.  

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck.  And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way.  And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept.  And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his Â£57 a week.  Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.  

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son.  For Â£57 a week.  And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but  the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way.  The Tories repulse me.  And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him.  She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also.  Absolutely sickening way to treat people.
		
Click to expand...

Can he pull a pint, loads of bar staff being advertised in Sheffield, not all wanting experience, even Sheffield United want bar and waiting staff no experience for Â£7.20 p/hr and 5-8hr shifts, that's his JSA sorted in a single shift!

Has he registered with any temp agencies up there, I'd be amazed that they couldn't find anything for anyone, after all, it's in their interest to place people to earn off them!

I don't accept that there are not ANY jobs out there for someone, IF they are prepared to put themselves out and do something they wouldn't usually consider, and once employed and going for the next job to better that, I believe it's gets easier and companies look upon those people with more favour, I do. 



You just want to blame everyone, especially the Tories, but he's chosen Sheffield as his base, because of friends & contacts, well I'm sorry but in this day & age they can be anywhere in the world, he needs a reality check and a kick up the backside not mollycoddling IMO, but then that's not the lefty way, is it!

#GroupHugAnyone


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Imurg said:



			There was a deadline.
It was extremely well publicised
We had months to ensure we were eligible to vote...the referendum was announced in February 
So what's going to happen if a bus load of people turn up at a polling station and are queueing to get in at 9.59pm..?
Keep them open another hour??
Not going to happen ?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly it is going to happen as it did in the general election because the boys in blue deemed it safer to let the drunken rabble vote than allow the polling station to close.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			If I've got out of the UK then I have the right to travel. They do not need to see my passport.

I'm about to boost their pityful economy, they need me, I require their sun. Let me get in and start boosting. 
When we vote out and Greece and Portugal and Italy will not be able to be supported by the EU, watch the prices fall in those countries as the pound soars !!!
		
Click to expand...

My, you are a poster boy for the leave campaign aren't you....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2016)

I see Blair and Major have been stirring it up a bit in NI.

A new UK boundary is bound to be a bit of a barrier both politically, financially and for security.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

More rubbish, just today's scare story.  The Common travel area has been in place long before the EU existed. Free movement of Irish and UK citizens would continue as is.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2016)

Hobbit said:



*Oh I do thank you!!*



C'mon then Ethan, am I still a liar? I can't believe you could be wrong!! No, no apology necessary.

I guess Aztec will be taking back his "like" now that its been proven to be wrong...
		
Click to expand...

Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology. Your posts are pretty poor attempts at wit in lieu of actual facts. I guess you don't have much of either.


----------



## drdel (Jun 9, 2016)

Its amusing that both side can play with the numbers and get an interpretation they like.

In round figures. Say A pays B Â£350m, B pays A about Â£200m so B is better off than A by Â£150m: e.g. A's net contribution to B. I guess no disagreement yet.

Now A decides not to play with B anymore.  A doesn't write cheques to B so now has Â£350m to do stuff elsewhere or not.  B no longer has A's cash but does not have or need to pay A the Â£200m but will need to find another source for the Â£150m.

 But the daft argument has grown as to whether A is Â£350m better off or just Â£150m better off.  I'll duck now.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			More rubbish, just today's scare story.  The Common travel area has been in place long before the EU existed. Free movement of Irish and UK citizens would continue as is.
		
Click to expand...

With a serving cabinet minister saying they were talking rubbish.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that you blame Tory voters for not caring about your son when it was a Labour government that introduced sanctions on JSA and the stringency of them while they were in power. For instance Labour brought in the job search requirement for single parents when their youngest child reached the age of 12 and then subsequently dropped this age to 7. Yes there have been an increase in sanctions over the years as new rules were introduced but to try and pin it on Tory voters or the Conservatives is poor. It seems that no matter what colour of government is in power they are maintaining existing sanctions and introducing new ones.

As for your son, how long would you like the rest of us to support him while he waits for the perfect job to come up? 2 years? 5 years? Reed are currently advertising more than 2700 jobs in Sheffield. Jobsite have over 900 jobs in Sheffield. Totaljobs have over 1900 jobs in Sheffield. Of course some of those won't be suitable for him but are you really trying to say that it is impossible for him to find a job while he looks for something better?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			If I've got out of the UK then I have the right to travel. They do not need to see my passport.

I'm about to boost their pityful economy, they need me, I require their sun. Let me get in and start boosting. 
When we vote out and Greece and Portugal and Italy will not be able to be supported by the EU, watch the prices fall in those countries as the pound soars !!!
		
Click to expand...

Can't think why some people see the leave campaign as full of narrow minded little England xenephobes...


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't think why some people see the leave campaign as full of narrow minded little England xenephobes...
		
Click to expand...

There's little England xenephobes in all walks of life, remain supporters included. Just that in general, Leave supporters don't constantly throw negative stereotypes at the opposition, maybe because we have something more important to get across than facile insults.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't think why some people see the leave campaign as full of narrow minded little England xenephobes...
		
Click to expand...

Be interested to know who these narrow minded bigots are. Or do we already know.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't think why some people see the leave campaign as full of narrow minded little England xenephobes...
		
Click to expand...

To start with I call out that statement as xenophobic as it is vilifies the Little England Race, yes Sir, you are being Racist calling them all Narrow Minded. Shame on you and a pestilence upon your Yurt and Yoghurt.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Be interested to know who these narrow minded bigots are. Or do we already know.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently they are vertically challenged people who live in England.  You can recognise them by their narrow heads and their Xenophobes which I am told is an English version of a Vuvazella.    Most of them seem to live in Chipping Sodbury.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

drdel said:



			Its amusing that both side can play with the numbers and get an interpretation they like.

In round figures. Say A pays B Â£350m, B pays A about Â£200m so B is better off than A by Â£150m: e.g. A's net contribution to B. I guess no disagreement yet.

Now A decides not to play with B anymore.  A doesn't write cheques to B so now has Â£350m to do stuff elsewhere or not.  B no longer has A's cash but does not have or need to pay A the Â£200m but will need to find another source for the Â£150m.

 But the daft argument has grown as to whether A is Â£350m better off or just Â£150m better off.  I'll duck now.
		
Click to expand...

As things stand we would be 150million a week better off.  BUT, we do pay the 350m, getting 200m or so back in rebates and subsidies. But, as the Leave side keeps explaining,  these rebates have no guarantee, so once the referendum is over, theres no saying we will definitely continue to receive those rebates. As it is, the eu would straight away be 150m a week worse off. No wonder they are so keen for us to remain. (Well someone has to prop up the basket case economies they let in).


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			As things stand we would be 150million a week better off.  BUT, we do pay the 350m, getting 200m or so back in rebates and subsidies. But, as the Leave side keeps explaining,  these rebates have no guarantee, so once the referendum is over, theres no saying we will definitely continue to receive those rebates. As it is, the eu would straight away be 150m a week worse off. No wonder they are so keen for us to remain.
		
Click to expand...

They clobbered us with a humping great Â£1.7 Billion extra bill a year ago.  Call-Me-Dave said he would not pay it, then he paid it.  It was more than twice the other major economies had to pay and all because we were doing better than them. Does anyone actually believe the EU would not continue to squeeze us until the pips squeak to bail out they basket case Euro.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology. Your posts are pretty poor attempts at wit in lieu of actual facts. I guess you don't have much of either.
		
Click to expand...

Ooohh! Don't worry I wasn't expecting one. Saves me telling you where to stuff it. 

Choices, choices, choices... Believe one of the UK's top barristers or an irritating gnat like you. Even I can work that one out.

But I do congratulate you in your utter lack of grace when proven wrong. No fear of you ever being considered to be a gentleman.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			They clobbered us with a humping great Â£1.7 Billion extra bill a year ago.  Call-Me-Dave said he would not pay it, then he paid it.  It was more than twice the other major economies had to pay and all because we were doing better than them. Does anyone actually believe the EU would not continue to squeeze us until the pips squeak to bail out they basket case Euro.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron can huff and puff as much as he likes. We all know there is absolutely nothing he can do about the eu. Like his 'negotiated' red card system where we can veto proposed eu legislation if we can get over 50% of member states to agree with us.  The UK is lucky to get one other nation to side with us, let alone over 50%. Especially now that the eastern europeans will vote on anything en bloc.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2016)

Where's Corbyn, biggest decision in our country's future for a generation and where's Corbyn.

Butlins?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Where's Corbyn, biggest decision in our country's future for a generation and where's Corbyn.

Butlins?
		
Click to expand...

Who's Corbyn


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Who's Corbyn
		
Click to expand...

He's in the wrong camp.  He hates the EU but has painted himself into a corner.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 9, 2016)

Never thought Corbyn would be one to ditch his own principles and tow the party line. His non appearance speaks volumes of his true leanings.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Where's Corbyn, biggest decision in our country's future for a generation and where's Corbyn.

Butlins?
		
Click to expand...

He is being clever, sees his main chance after the Tory party splits in two.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He is being clever, sees his main chance after the Tory party splits in two.
		
Click to expand...

So Corbyn going against his principals as he sees a political chance for himself is being clever but Boris Johnson going against his principals as he sees a political chance for himself makes him the devil?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			As for your son, how long would you like the rest of us to support him while he waits for the perfect job to come up? 2 years? 5 years? Reed are currently advertising more than 2700 jobs in Sheffield. Jobsite have over 900 jobs in Sheffield. Totaljobs have over 1900 jobs in Sheffield. Of course some of those won't be suitable for him but are you really trying to say that it is impossible for him to find a job while he looks for something better?
		
Click to expand...

If I was interviewing someone for a job and it was clear for whatever reason that he was only going to be there until something better came along I wouldn't employ him.

Sounds like SILH's graduate son might be a bit overqualified for many of those job centre roles.

I'm fairly outraged that we're giving free labour to a corporation like tescos. Surely if they need people they should be paying them?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2016)

Does it matter if someone is over qualified for a job? I've got a degree and in the past I have worked in bars and restaurants, in call centres and as a delivery driver. I did those jobs because I had bills to pay and even on minimum wage I was still far better off than on JSA. Instead of going into the interview and giving the impression you are only there until something better comes up go in there and tell them you want the job because you don't want to be on JSA. But if SILH's graduate son feels that these jobs are beneath him then I guess we need all these degree educated eastern European migrants coming into the country to do the jobs that the Brits are not prepared to do.

Having looked on Google for the Tesco/Job Centre link up the most recent stories I could find were from 2012 when it seemed that Tesco were offering 4 week job placements that were on a "JSA + expenses" basis through a government approved scheme. This scheme was then changed to a 4 week paid placement with a job offer at the end of it if the applicant successfully completed the placement. I am unable to find any more recent stories that suggest this is no longer the case or that they have gone back to the old scheme.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			If I was interviewing someone for a job and it was clear for whatever reason that he was only going to be there until something better came along I wouldn't employ him.

Sounds like SILH's graduate son might be a bit overqualified for many of those job centre roles.

I'm fairly outraged that we're giving free labour to a corporation like tescos. Surely if they need people they should be paying them?
		
Click to expand...

People who are out of work for a period are asked to do work experience, it's not always stacking shelves in Tescos.   These job experience schemes often allow people to show that they have some potential and often lead to a job offer.  I remember taking on a young man who came to us on a YTS scheme as I saw potential in him I sent him to college where he obtained an HNC in Engineering and became our leading CadCam Software support Engineers.  If you really have a fire in your belly to get on then you will do it, it's futile to blame the Government.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So Corbyn going against his principals as he sees a political chance for himself is being clever but Boris Johnson going against his principals as he sees a political chance for himself makes him the devil?
		
Click to expand...

Johnson will come out of this as damaged goods, a liar and unelectable, Corbyn will be the fresh guy.
It is the oldest trick in politics.

Leavers are getting slaughtered on QT tonight, even though they are 3-2  [and one of those against is Eddie Izzard]:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson will come out of this as damaged goods, a liar and unelectable, Corbyn will be the fresh guy.
It is the oldest trick in politics.

Leavers are getting slaughtered on QT tonight, even though they are 3-2  [and one of those against is Eddie Izzard]:lol:
		
Click to expand...


You must be watching a different QT than me. Izzard is acting like a demented idiot, Benn is intellectually challenged as the spectre of his eurosceptic Father leaves him in his shadow.   The Leavers seem to have the audience behind them in numbers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson will come out of this as damaged goods, a liar and unelectable, Corbyn will be the fresh guy.
It is the oldest trick in politics.

Leavers are getting slaughtered on QT tonight, even though they are 3-2  [and one of those against is Eddie Izzard]:lol:
		
Click to expand...

As history will prove. Doon will be wrong and wont even know it.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson will come out of this as damaged goods, a liar and unelectable, Corbyn will be the fresh guy.
It is the oldest trick in politics.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that Corbyn is electable? I'm not sure even the Labour party believe that.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You must be watching a different QT than me. Izzard is acting like a demented idiot, Benn is intellectually challenged as the spectre of his eurosceptic Father leaves him in his shadow.   The Leavers seem to have the audience behind them in numbers.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think Benn will ever recover from the mauling that Andrew Neil gave him mid week


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I don't think Benn will ever recover from the mauling that Andrew Neil gave him mid week
		
Click to expand...

That goes for Osborne as well.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You must be watching a different QT than me. Izzard is acting like a demented idiot, Benn is intellectually challenged as the spectre of his eurosceptic Father leaves him in his shadow.   The Leavers seem to have the audience behind them in numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Yes.......one or two:lol:
And one of them thought only Englanders could vote.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 10, 2016)

On the ITV debate last night all the remain team had to offer was to attack Boris personally, very poor, and to attack what the Leavers said....why didn't they push their case? Because they know the Leavers have a stronger arguement so tried desperately to undermine them. The Leavers stood together in harmony and were far superior. 
For Remain. Sturgeon was a disgrace. the Labour women was useless and the Tory woman just plain nuts!
For Leave. Tory woman was superb, Labour woman, shakey start but once into it was solid. Boris was a rock, and did not get drawn into the disgraceful jibes from remain and showed just, actually, he's very very good.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You must be watching a different QT than me. Izzard is acting like a demented idiot, Benn is intellectually challenged as the spectre of his eurosceptic Father leaves him in his shadow.   The Leavers seem to have the audience behind them in numbers.
		
Click to expand...

These Leavers certainly know how to debate in style. Sickening abuse and death threats on social media.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 10, 2016)

All the above comments on QT prove only one thing.

We all hear what we want to hear, Leave supporters and Remain supporters both claiming their representatives won the argument.

Not much point in debate really.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			All the above comments on QT prove only one thing.

We all hear what we want to hear, Leave supporters and Remain supporters both claiming their representatives won the argument.

Not much point in debate really.
		
Click to expand...

Micky I am fortunate that I had made my mind up months/ years ago. Feel a bit sorry for those still sat on the fence, because a lot of what is being said is rubbish from both sides. 

Thought the the question to Nicola Sturgeon " you don't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels when you are independent &#128563;" was excellent. One she side stepped excellently by not answering.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 10, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Micky I am fortunate that I had made my mind up months/ years ago. Feel a bit sorry for those still sat on the fence, because a lot of what is being said is rubbish from both sides. 

Thought the the question to Nicola Sturgeon " you don't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels when you are independent &#63027;" was excellent. One she side stepped excellently by not answering.
		
Click to expand...

But if a lot of what is being said now is "rubbish" maybe it was months/years ago when you made up your mind.

As for the Sturgeon question it is, at best, naive. I can clearly understand why she would want Scotland to be an independent nation whilst, at the same time, being part of the EU.

However, I do not consider the UK to currently being "ruled by Brussels" any more than Germany, France, Italy or any other member of the EU would be.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			All the above comments on QT prove only one thing.

We all hear what we want to hear, Leave supporters and Remain supporters both claiming their representatives won the argument.

Not much point in debate really.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that's fair if one has an open mind. Objectively remain had a terrible night.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But if a lot of what is being said now is "rubbish" maybe it was months/years ago when you made up your mind.

As for the Sturgeon question it is, at best, naive. I can clearly understand why she would want Scotland to be an independent nation whilst, at the same time, being part of the EU.

However, I do not consider the UK to currently being "ruled by Brussels" any more than Germany, France, Italy or any other member of the EU would be.
		
Click to expand...

It may well of been, but the fact that mr Cameron and Osborne ( remainers) decided not to apply for EU AID to keep me in a job made my mind up. Not the rubbish that was being spouted about. The EU aid would of kept me and a couple of thousand others in jobs til we were 55 ( avg age in industry) then we could of claimed better pensions. So the claim that staying in the EU helps protect jobs is factually incorrect from my personal experience. Also two of my pensions have gone into the PPF, so to claim your pension is safer in the EU, once more is factually incorrect. both topics I have mentioned before on GM.
I understand people's fears ( on both sides) of the uncertaintanty of where the UK will be whether in or out. 
But my decision ( to vote exit) is made solely upon facts and events that have happened to me in my recent history. Not the uncertainty of our future. Furthermore Missis T has also made up her mind on which way she will go having seen the state of her industry ( NHS).


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			On the ITV debate last night all the remain team had to offer was to attack Boris personally, very poor, and to attack what the Leavers said....why didn't they push their case? Because they know the Leavers have a stronger arguement so tried desperately to undermine them. The Leavers stood together in harmony and were far superior. 
For Remain. Sturgeon was a disgrace. the Labour women was useless and the Tory woman just plain nuts!
For Leave. Tory woman was superb, Labour woman, shakey start but once into it was solid. *Boris was a rock, and did not get drawn into the disgraceful jibes from remain and showed just, actually, he's very very good*.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...en-war-torn-remains-of-britain-20160610109438


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 10, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			It may well of been, but the fact that mr Cameron and Osborne ( remainers) decided not to apply for EU AID to keep me in a job made my mind up. Not the rubbish that was being spouted about. The EU aid would of kept me and a couple of thousand others in jobs til we were 55 ( avg age in industry) then we could of claimed better pensions. So the claim that staying in the EU helps protect jobs is factually incorrect from my personal experience. Also two of my pensions have gone into the PPF, so to claim your pension is safer in the EU, once more is factually incorrect. both topics I have mentioned before on GM.
I understand people's fears ( on both sides) of the uncertaintanty of where the UK will be whether in or out. 
But my decision ( to vote exit) is made solely upon facts and events that have happened to me in my recent history. Not the uncertainty of our future. Furthermore Missis T has also made up her mind on which way she will go having seen the state of her industry ( NHS).
		
Click to expand...

Neither you, nor I, have any idea if State intervention in the coal-mining industry would have actually saved any jobs in the medium to long term.

As for your pensions being within the PPF at least the major part of your benefits will still be payable. This was not always the case prior to the establishment of the PPF.

So it all depends how one interprets the "facts" that are presented to us all.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 10, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			These Leavers certainly know how to debate in style. Sickening abuse and death threats on social media.
		
Click to expand...

Not pointing fingers at you Doon but that tactic was well employed by the Scotland Independence supporters last year


----------



## MarkE (Jun 10, 2016)

The debates on tv are now all taking a similar path. The Leavers trying to state their case, while the Remainers throw cheap personal attacks. It's getting silly now and surely is doing the Remain side little favours.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...en-war-torn-remains-of-britain-20160610109438

Click to expand...

What an absolutely stupid and infantile link, I just cant see why you bothered to post it!   

Bit quiet in the office today?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No we're  not.  We have no control on EU migration, we have no control in our justice system, we have no control on new laws being imposed on us, *we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country. *  It's a mess.
		
Click to expand...

Just on this one

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rted-uk-european-arrest-warrant-a7068561.html


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Micky I am fortunate that I had made my mind up months/ years ago. Feel a bit sorry for those still sat on the fence, because a lot of what is being said is rubbish from both sides. 

Thought the the question to Nicola Sturgeon *" you don't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels when you are independent &#128563;" *was excellent. One she side stepped excellently by not answering.
		
Click to expand...

Because, despite what Brexit would want you to believe, countries remain independent when in the EU - and an independent Scotland can have it's own voice in Europe and not have it's voice lost in Westminster's.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because, despite what Brexit would want you to believe, countries remain independent when in the EU - and an independent Scotland can have it's own voice in Europe and not have it's voice lost in Westminster's.
		
Click to expand...

So a small independent country like Scotland would have a voice in the EU while a major country like the UK can get very little through or changed within the EU. Dream on, the Eastern block now has the major overriding say in what happens with Germany controlling their purse strings.

A none issue anyway as Ms Sturdgen in an interview with the BBC early this week or late last week stated that a UK leave would not be significant factor that would cause another Independence vote in Scotland.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

One thing I'm really struggling with with Brexit is that which has caused Sarah Wollaston to change her mind move to Remain.  It is a *fact* that we UK does not pay Â£350m a week into the EU.  A fact.  And my goodness when looking forward we seem to be rather short of these in this debate - from both sides.

Putting aside what comes back to the UK in the form of funding - it is a fact that the rebate is taken off *before * the UK pays a penny.  Yet Brexit continues to claim that we pay Â£350m to the EU every week when we just don't.  It is quite simply a lie.  

There are many things that _Remain_ and _Leave _are predicting that will happen - but these are not lies - these are predictions that can be debunked if you wish or you can say are based on false premises and assumptions.  But the Â£350m figure is just simply not true.

But Brexit refuse to admit it - last night we heard BoJo Buffon refuse to accept it; yesterday on Today prog being interviewed by Nick Robinson, John Redwood just would not admit that the figure as being presented by Brexit was wrong,

I'm guessing Brexit is simply thinking we've got the Â£350m figure in our sympathisers head, so why admit we have been lying and risk losing some.  So they persist - quite happily running with the lie.  And when they so blatantly and brazenly  continue to perpetrate this lie, why should I believe a single word that they say.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So a small independent country like Scotland would have a voice in the EU *while a major country like the UK can get very little through or changed within the EU.* Dream on, the Eastern block now has the major overriding say in what happens with Germany controlling their purse strings.

A none issue anyway as Ms Sturdgen in an interview with the BBC early this week or late last week stated that a UK leave would not be significant factor that would cause another Independence vote in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

You see with this statement you have absolutely no basis for making it.  I suggest that you have very little idea how influential the UK is and has been in forming EU policy - and neither really do I - other than when examples are presented.  Indeed just one thing Brexiteers claim about the UK is in respect of such as workplace and employment law, health and safety etc, is that we - the UK - have driven EU policy - and so Brexit claim why would a Brexitted UK change things?  So I suggest that the UK has been very influential in forming EU policy.  The fact that UK does not always get it's way does mean that the UK has no voice or gets little changed.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 10, 2016)

You're right SILH, it is a real shame that they are perpetuating a downright lie.

Even Farage has distanced himself from it which tells you something.

Boggles my mind why they don't opt for the non-debated net figure of Â£10billion / year - it's still a heck of a lot of money! And just as imperceivable as Â£350m/week.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

Strangely I find myself agreeing with SiLH on something. Got the latest Leave leaflet through the door and it has the Â£350 million figure all over it. Was wondering why they were still using it even though it isn't true. Leave supporters will say it is because our rebate is not guaranteed and Remain supporters counter with the UK has a veto if they try to change it so it won't happen. Would be much better for Leave to use the Â£350 million less our rebate as the actual amount we send to the EU each week.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So a small independent country like Scotland would have a voice in the EU while a major country like the UK can get very little through or changed within the EU. Dream on, the Eastern block now has the major overriding say in what happens with Germany controlling their purse strings.

A none issue anyway as Ms Sturdgen in an interview with the BBC early this week or late last week stated that a UK leave would not be significant factor that would cause another Independence vote in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

What Sturgeon says is that if the UK leaving the EU caused a significant shift in the Yes/No independence balance in Scotland for a sustained period, then that would in all likelihood be a trigger for a call for a further referendum.  A Brexit in itself will not.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Strangely I find myself agreeing with SiLH on something. Got the latest Leave leaflet through the door and it has the Â£350 million figure all over it. Was wondering why they were still using it even though it isn't true. Leave supporters will say it is because our rebate is not guaranteed and Remain supporters counter with the UK has a veto if they try to change it so it won't happen. Would be much better for Leave to use the Â£350 million less our rebate as the actual amount we send to the EU each week.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they realise that their economic credibility is wafer thin, and that their only high value card in the economic debate is this Â£350million a week figure.  Admitting that they have willfully and continually misrepresented what the UK actually pays might not play that well with waverers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You see with this statement you have absolutely no basis for making it.  I suggest that you have very little idea how influential the UK is and has been in forming EU policy - and neither really do I - other than when examples are presented.  Indeed just one thing Brexiteers claim about the UK is in respect of such as workplace and employment law, health and safety etc, is that we - the UK - have driven EU policy - and so Brexit claim why would a Brexitted UK change things?  So I suggest that the UK has been very influential in forming EU policy.  The fact that UK does not always get it's way does mean that the UK has no voice or gets little changed.
		
Click to expand...

What about Osborn's Â£4,200 a year for each family.  His own Treasury now say it's not true and should not be used .   There are exaggerated claims on both sides and we all know it.

Regarding the outlandish financial distortion being banded about especially by Remain I  recall the words of Oscar Wilde that *'A cynic was a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing'.

*


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

I'm not sure that the Remain campaign has much better economic credibility. With the claims about each household being Â£4200 per year worse off or house prices falling by 20% in the event of a Leave vote they don't fill me with confidence that they know what will happen.

I suppose that the best you can say is that these are forecasts or predictions rather than being provably wrong.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing I'm really struggling with with Brexit is that which has caused Sarah Wollaston to change her mind move to Remain.  It is a *fact* that we UK does not pay Â£350m a week into the EU.  A fact.  And my goodness when looking forward we seem to be rather short of these in this debate - from both sides.

Putting aside what comes back to the UK in the form of funding - it is a fact that the rebate is taken off *before * the UK pays a penny.  Yet Brexit continues to claim that we pay Â£350m to the EU every week when we just don't.  It is quite simply a lie.  

There are many things that _Remain_ and _Leave _are predicting that will happen - but these are not lies - these are predictions that can be debunked if you wish or you can say are based on false premises and assumptions.  But the Â£350m figure is just simply not true.

But Brexit refuse to admit it - last night we heard BoJo Buffon refuse to accept it; yesterday on Today prog being interviewed by Nick Robinson, John Redwood just would not admit that the figure as being presented by Brexit was wrong,

I'm guessing Brexit is simply thinking we've got the Â£350m figure in our sympathisers head, so why admit we have been lying and risk losing some.  So they persist - quite happily running with the lie.  And when they so blatantly and brazenly  continue to perpetrate this lie, why should I believe a single word that they say.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously? Sure it's not Â£350 million but it is, after rebates and whatnot, Â£250 MILLION. As the lady last night said....when someone askes you how much do you earn you say Â£30K (or whatever) NOT Â£30K less tax, NI, pension, payment s to wifey etc. Leave went for the top figure (as anyone would). But NEVER EVER FORGET when you go to vote IT IS ABOUT Â£250 MILLION. FACT

Leave...can quote facts...Remain can only guess and that's why Remain are now slinging mud.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

So why is it Â£350 million on the side of the Leave bus and all over their literature if even someone as supportive of Leave as you are knows it's not true?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So why is it Â£350 million on the side of the Leave bus and all over their literature if even someone as supportive of Leave as you are knows it's not true?
		
Click to expand...

Boris explained that Â£350 million was the cost of us staying in.   I guest he includes intangible items.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

Why is it the cost of staying in? That's not how much we actually pay so it isn't the cost of it.

The Leave leaflet that was delivered to the house this morning states "we send over Â£350 million to the EU every week". This is blatantly untrue as the rebate is deducted before we pay anything to the EU.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2016)

The argument is that the figure of the rebate could change. Â£350m is the figure that would be sent untouched if our rebate was ever rescinded.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 10, 2016)

Which would be fine if that was what they are claiming. But it's not - they're saying we're sending that every week.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The argument is that the figure of the rebate could change. Â£350m is the figure that would be sent untouched* if our rebate was ever rescinded*.
		
Click to expand...

But *that *is conjecture - Brexit talk about how much we send - that is historically and present day.  And it's not true.

As for the Â£4200 figure - it comes form the LSE - and it's a *forecast *that you can debunk if you wish

_Our baseline estimates come from a state-of-the-art static model of the global economy. We also present estimates using empirical evidence on the links between EU membership, trade and income. This â€˜reduced-formâ€™ approach captures the long-run effects of leaving the EU on productivity growth and leads to much higher estimates. In this case, we calculate that Brexit may reduce national income by between 6.3% and 9.5% â€“ that is, about Â£4,200 to Â£6,400 per household per year._

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2...to-trade-at-least-850-per-household-per-year/

So GO presented the Â£4200 in the comparative way used by the LSE to give the top line figure some meaning - in much the same way Brexit convert Â£350m into 600,000 nurses and a hospital a week (btw - just in case you were mistaken - you can't have both)

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost

Whatever weasel words Bojo uses around the Â£350m figure, he should just tell us that, actually, the UK does not send Â£350m a week to the EU.  But no - in his disingenuous and deceitful way he (and the rest of them) choose to continue to perpetrate the myth that Brexit have created. Tell a lie enough times and some people will believe it to be true.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Seriously? Sure it's not Â£350 million but it is, after rebates and whatnot, Â£250 MILLION. As the lady last night said....when someone askes you how much do you earn you say Â£30K (or whatever) NOT Â£30K less tax, NI, pension, payment s to wifey etc. Leave went for the top figure (as anyone would). But NEVER EVER FORGET when you go to vote IT IS ABOUT Â£250 MILLION. FACT

Leave...can quote facts...Remain can only guess and that's why Remain are now slinging mud.
		
Click to expand...

Your Â£250m does not include money returned to UK in funding (about Â£80m I believe).  You might well say you want to be able to choose how to spend that Â£80m.  But if you spend it differently there will be losers and Brexit isn't supposed to create losers - so let's leave it where it is and assume you want to maintain current levels of funding to those who currently get a slice of the Â£80m.

That leaves Â£170m.  Now that's a lot of money - but it won't fund 600,000 nurses or one new hospital a week.  So these indicative comparisons themselves immediately also become misleading - and as they based upon a lie - they themselves are also lies.  And so it goes on.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You see with this statement you have absolutely no basis for making it.  I suggest that you have very little idea how influential the UK is and has been in forming EU policy - and neither really do I
		
Click to expand...

Therefor you have no bases for disputing it as you admit you have no idea either.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What Sturgeon says is that if the UK leaving the EU caused a significant shift in the Yes/No independence balance in Scotland for a sustained period, then that would in all likelihood be a trigger for a call for a further referendum.  A Brexit in itself will not.
		
Click to expand...

She is keeping her powder dry. Back in the 70s the country with the most No vote to the Common Market vote was Scotland.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps they realise that their economic credibility is wafer thin, and that their only high value card in the economic debate is this Â£350million a week figure.  Admitting that they have willfully and continually misrepresented what the UK actually pays might not play that well with waverers.
		
Click to expand...

This perplexes me as well. Clearly we pay a significant sum of money as part of our eu membership so why don't they just quote the real figure? Instead they are sticking with a bogus number that everyone knows is a lie and, IMO, ruining what might be a solid vote-winning argument.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing I'm really struggling with with Brexit is that which has caused Sarah Wollaston to change her mind move to Remain.
		
Click to expand...

Shes the next Health Minister. Down hear in Devon the talk is that she will not be the candidate for Totnes at the next election as her main stand was on leaving the EU because of its damaging effects on farming and the fisheries.

Strange that the BBC give her the position of a senior member of the Conservative party and headlines even though she has only been an MP for 2 short years whilst Skinner and his mate get the back bencher treatment with back page treatment .


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This perplexes me as well. Clearly we pay a significant sum of money as part of our eu membership so why don't they just quote the real figure? Instead they are sticking with a bogus number that everyone knows is a lie and, IMO, ruining what might be a solid vote-winning argument.
		
Click to expand...

I can't stand Grayling, but even he looked sorrowfully embarrassed when trying to defend the Â£350m big lie the other night.
If the separatists came clean and blamed it all on Nigel's economics they just might still have a chance.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What an absolutely stupid and infantile link, I just cant see why you bothered to post it!   

Bit quiet in the office today?  

Click to expand...

Bit of humour to puncture all the serious pontificating and spouting off in this thread.  That deep down everyone really knows will mean absolutely chuff all in terms of how people on here vote?


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jun 10, 2016)

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed on t'tele:

If this question of leave/remain has been floating around the country since before the last election how many other markets have our government been approaching to discuss future trade deals with?

Or are they going to wait to see what is decided and suddenly go "Oh ****, I was going to do something about that, but.... "

For what it's worth, having read the first few pages and last few pages of this thread I think that opinion here has mirrored the country - very little has changed throughout the debate - those who are in are still in and vice versa. All the politicians involved are doing a great job of pontificating about what is best for them as individuals and don't really give a damn about what is best for the proles like me (and maybe you??).

Farage's whole career is based on arguing about leaving, but he doesn't necessarily want that eventuality to happen - if we ever  actually leave he'll be out of a job.

Cameron is wholly committed to staying into his marvelously reformed EU - but why the hell did he ever let it get to the state that it needed so much reform unless he was happy with it as it was until he thought he might lose his job over it.

Boris is absolutely for anything that will let him get one over on his old school bud.

And the others are trying to position themselves in the best place for when the dust settles.

My tuppence - I don't think it's actually about trade, I think it's more about sovereignty - most leavers don't like the idea of any other country, or group of countries, having the power to tell us what to do. The remainers think we have plenty of power and it's us that is leading the rest of Europe.

As with the whole of the debate I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

And I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that very little is going to change either way whichever way the vote goes.

If we leave we'll still have to jump to the EU drum in order to trade.

If we stay we'll fight to keep our sovereignty away from fully immersing with those damned johnny foreigners.

:sbox:


----------



## Pro Zach (Jun 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing I'm really struggling with with Brexit is that which has caused Sarah Wollaston to change her mind move to Remain.  It is a *fact* that we UK does not pay Â£350m a week into the EU.  A fact.  And my goodness when looking forward we seem to be rather short of these in this debate - from both sides.

Putting aside what comes back to the UK in the form of funding - it is a fact that the rebate is taken off *before * the UK pays a penny.  Yet Brexit continues to claim that we pay Â£350m to the EU every week when we just don't.  It is quite simply a lie.  

There are many things that _Remain_ and _Leave _are predicting that will happen - but these are not lies - these are predictions that can be debunked if you wish or you can say are based on false premises and assumptions.  But the Â£350m figure is just simply not true.

But Brexit refuse to admit it - last night we heard BoJo Buffon refuse to accept it; yesterday on Today prog being interviewed by Nick Robinson, John Redwood just would not admit that the figure as being presented by Brexit was wrong,

I'm guessing Brexit is simply thinking we've got the Â£350m figure in our sympathisers head, so why admit we have been lying and risk losing some.  So they persist - quite happily running with the lie.  And when they so blatantly and brazenly  continue to perpetrate this lie, why should I believe a single word that they say.
		
Click to expand...

They are not lying. It is a gross figure. We pay Â£350m, we negotiated a Â£80m REBATE. We did not negotiate a reduction in the payment. So we now have a Gross payment of Â£350m and a Nett payment of Â£270m. Both of these figures would be factual and true. 

If they actually want an out vote then I personally think they were wrong to use the gross figure. This is because most people, like you, will see the nett figure as being true and the gross figure as therefore being false or a lie. But it is not.

As a golfer you should find it easy to understand that they are both true. Last Saturday I scored a gross 86 which is a nett 74 after my 'rebate'. If I say I scored 86 will you call me a liar because it is a fact I scored 74. Or do you understand that the gross and nett are both factual and true.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jun 10, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Last Saturday I scored a gross 86 which is a nett 74 after my 'rebate'. If I say I scored 86 will you call me a liar because it is a fact I scored 74.
		
Click to expand...

Or will they call you a liar because there is video evidence of you kicking the ball out of the rough on the dogleg 13th???



&#8203;(The above is blatantly untrue and I'd hate to cast nasturtiums about Pro Zach's 'gardening' skills, but there are times when it's just too easy to jump in with both feet...)


----------



## Pro Zach (Jun 10, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Or will they call you a liar because there is video evidence of you kicking the ball out of the rough on the dogleg 13th???



&#8203;(The above is blatantly untrue and I'd hate to cast nasturtiums about Pro Zach's 'gardening' skills, but there are times when it's just too easy to jump in with both feet...)

Click to expand...

They can't have this evidence as I only played the front nine and then filled the rest in in the bar. Level gross front nine but needed point one back for this weeks knock-out.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			They are not lying. It is a gross figure. We pay Â£350m, we negotiated a Â£80m REBATE. We did not negotiate a reduction in the payment. So we now have a Gross payment of Â£350m and a Nett payment of Â£270m. Both of these figures would be factual and true.
		
Click to expand...

But we don't pay Â£350 million per week and we are certainly not sending "over Â£350 million to the EU every week" which is the claim in the latest Leave leaflet. The rebate is deducted before we make any payment so we are sending approx Â£270 million to the EU every week. Therefore the claim in the leaflet is a lie. Doesn't matter about gross or nett it's factually incorrect.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2016)

I loved Dimbledum explaining the maths behind the alleged Â£375m to Grayling as if he was a 4 year old.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2016)

Good old Woolfgang helping the out campaign.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But we don't pay Â£350 million per week and we are certainly not sending "over Â£350 million to the EU every week" which is the claim in the latest Leave leaflet. The rebate is deducted before we make any payment so we are sending approx Â£270 million to the EU every week. Therefore the claim in the leaflet is a lie. Doesn't matter about gross or nett it's factually incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

But the rebate is not enshrined in law and there's no guarantee our rebate won't fall if we vote to remain. If you trust the eu to stick to the negotiated rebate and do what's best for the UK, fair enough. On the other hand if like me you believe our contribution will continue to rise, to prop up all the basket case nations they continue to welcome into the eu, that 350million could soon look low.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

MarkE said:



			But the rebate is not enshrined in law and there's no guarantee our rebate won't fall if we vote to remain. If you trust the eu to stick to the negotiated rebate and do what's best for the UK, fair enough. On the other hand if like me you believe our contribution will continue to rise, to prop up all the basket case nations they continue to welcome into the eu, that 350million could soon look low.
		
Click to expand...

We do not send Â£350 million to the EU each week. That is a lie. Dress it up however you want but it's simply not true. If Leave were saying "if we lost our rebate we would be sending Â£350 million to the EU each week" then that would be fair enough but that isn't what they are saying.

You are correct in one sense in that the rebate is not set in any of the EU treaties but is discussed as part of the "Multiannual Financial Framework" every 7 years which has to be unanimously agreed by all 28 EU members. This means that they can't change it unless whoever the UK Prime Minister agrees to it being changed. We have a veto to stop any changes in this area. Do you think that there is any UK politician that would be willing to torpedo their own career and the hopes of their party by agreeing to give up the rebate?


----------



## Pro Zach (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But we don't pay Â£350 million per week and we are certainly not sending "over Â£350 million to the EU every week" which is the claim in the latest Leave leaflet. The rebate is deducted before we make any payment so we are sending approx Â£270 million to the EU every week. Therefore the claim in the leaflet is a lie. Doesn't matter about gross or nett it's factually incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

We send them Â£270m NETT. It very much matters if it's gross or nett, because if it was gross we could deduct Â£80m rebate from it. You are arguing that it is a physical fact that we send Â£270m therefore it must be untrue that we send Â£350m.

This means that my nett 74 is untrue. I didn't physically score 74, my actual score was 86. but my 74 is not untrue, it is a fact by definition of a nett score.

So we don't physically send Â£350m but we do send Â£350m gross by fact of definition of a gross amount.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			We do not send Â£350 million to the EU each week. That is a lie. Dress it up however you want but it's simply not true. If Leave were saying "if we lost our rebate we would be sending Â£350 million to the EU each week" then that would be fair enough but that isn't what they are saying.

You are correct in one sense in that the rebate is not set in any of the EU treaties but is discussed as part of the "Multiannual Financial Framework" every 7 years which has to be unanimously agreed by all 28 EU members. This means that they can't change it unless whoever the UK Prime Minister agrees to it being changed. We have a veto to stop any changes in this area. Do you think that there is any UK politician that would be willing to torpedo their own career and the hopes of their party by agreeing to give up the rebate?
		
Click to expand...

You can't quote a nett figure and ignore the gross. You call it a lie. I call it quoting the gross figure.  Consecutive PM's have sold us down the river where the eu is concerned, from both parties, so no I have little faith in the current incumbent doing what's right for the UK.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Neither you, nor I, have any idea if State intervention in the coal-mining industry would have actually saved any jobs in the medium to long term.

As for your pensions being within the PPF at least the major part of your benefits will still be payable. This was not always the case prior to the establishment of the PPF.

So it all depends how one interprets the "facts" that are presented to us all.
		
Click to expand...

The "facts" are Mickie that, Poland, Germany, Czech, Spain, France and every country within the EU that applied for EU state aid to prop up failing coal mining company's recieved said aid. that is fact, not how one interprets facts. Another fact is that David Cameron with his inability to support UK jobs, inadvertently supports Coal mining jobs within the EU and the rest of the world over well mine and thousands of others. Another fact is that this Government plans to have all coal powered stations closed by 2025. Another fact is that when my mine was due to close with EU aid was 2018. Another fact is 2018 is before 2025. Another fact is that this government quite rightly wants to reduce CO emissions. Another fact is that now we have no coal industry coal is still being imported from the rest of the world which is actually increasing CO emissions as it has to be transported from Columbia, Australia and the rest of the EU. Another fact is that no jobs would of been saved Medium to long term. Another fact is that jobs would of been saved Short term.

I really could go on but there is only one way to interpret facts, facts are facts. Sometimes people just don't like how it sits with there thoughts.

my vote on in or out is based upon facts that happend to me, not how you interpret them.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 10, 2016)

Pro Zach is spot on. In golfing parlance, you can kid yourself you've gone round in 74. But everyone knows it took you 86 strokes to get round.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You can't quote a nett figure and ignore the gross. You call it a lie. I call it quoting the gross figure.  Consecutive PM's have sold us down the river where the eu is concerned, from both parties, so no I have little faith in the current incumbent doing what's right for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Straight forward question for you then that simply requires a yes or no answer.........

Does the UK send Â£350 million per week to the EU?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			We do not send Â£350 million to the EU each week. That is a lie. Dress it up however you want but it's simply not true. If Leave were saying "if we lost our rebate we would be sending Â£350 million to the EU each week" then that would be fair enough but that isn't what they are saying.

You are correct in one sense in that the rebate is not set in any of the EU treaties but is discussed as part of the "Multiannual Financial Framework" every 7 years which has to be unanimously agreed by all 28 EU members. This means that they can't change it unless whoever the UK Prime Minister agrees to it being changed. We have a veto to stop any changes in this area. Do you think that there is any UK politician that would be willing to torpedo their own career and the hopes of their party by agreeing to give up the rebate?
		
Click to expand...

\\

Tony Blair gave up a lump of it.  I would not be surprised of anything Cameron would do, he is a slippery eel, he says Turkey wont get into the EU but stands in front of them saying he will be their biggest Advocate to get in the EU and agrees to give them a Billion pounds of our money to help them.

Just listen to what he used to say:

[video=youtube;m6JsrxXhCEc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JsrxXhCEc[/video]


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

More on what he said:

[video=youtube;-ZkdSNGFzhM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZkdSNGFzhM[/video]


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

And More again:
[video=youtube;JLTTjWLyBhY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLTTjWLyBhY[/video]


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Straight forward question for you then that simply requires a yes or no answer.........

Does the UK send Â£350 million per week to the EU?
		
Click to expand...

No it does not, and here is another question,

Does the UK have CONTROL over Â£350 million per week going to the EU less rebate .
 And the answer to that one is also No.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			No it does not, and here is another question,

Does the UK have CONTROL over Â£350 million per week going to the EU less rebate .
 And the answer to that one is also No.
		
Click to expand...

Correct. If you take off the rebate it equates to around Â£270 million per week that is being given to the EU. Some of that comes back to us in the form of EU spending on the UK but you are correct that we don't have control of that spending.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Straight forward question for you then that simply requires a yes or no answer.........

Does the UK send Â£350 million per week to the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Not as simple as a yes or no answer, but if it makes you feel better and as I can't be bothered to argue the toss with nett/gross figures we'll say you are correct, it's all semantics. 
So we send Â£270m which we have no control over and receive a rebate with no guarantees. If that is the main crux of the Leave argument that upsets the Remainers, i'll take it. That's pretty good going when compared to the tosh spouted by the Remain lobby daily.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Correct. If you take off the rebate it equates to around Â£270 million per week that is being given to the EU. Some of that comes back to us in the form of EU spending on the UK but you are correct that we don't have control of that spending.
		
Click to expand...

colchester FC I am sorry but your plain simple understandable logic has no place on this blog


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

I had a cynical thought today about the timing of the Referendum.  It seems to coincide with the latest deadline for Greece to meet it's next debt repayment so that more support can be given them.   I have a gut feeling that Greece will not meet this payment but will go though the normal 'The cheques in the post' routine for a few weeks.  After this there will be a call to sink another mega bunch of spondulas their way to stop the domino effect on the other failing basket case Euro countries.  I think the Germans will refuse to fund any more and the IMF will walk away from it.   This would be the time all reassurances that the UK are exempt from contributing will be torn up and if we stay we will be hung up to dry and told that we had the chance to get out.

Just a hunch but will be interested to se how it unfolds.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

Bit of good news in a the polls today (Doon take note)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit of good news in a the polls today (Doon take note)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

Click to expand...

So, polls only count when they are in your favour


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So, polls only count when they are in your favour

Click to expand...


Well I never said they don't count but it is good news when they are in your favour as you never fail to enlighten us on when it suits :thup:


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Well I never said they don't count but it is good news when they are in your favour as you never fail to enlighten us on when it suits :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but it is only 55/45 in your favour and if history tells us anything it is that in a referendum that margin isn't enough to stop the losing side whining and moaning and demanding another vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes, but it is only 55/45 in your favour and if history tells us anything it is that in a referendum that margin isn't enough to stop the losing side whining and moaning and demanding another vote. 

Click to expand...

Harsh but fair.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But we don't pay Â£350 million per week and we are certainly not sending "over Â£350 million to the EU every week" which is the claim in the latest Leave leaflet. The rebate is deducted before we make any payment so we are sending approx Â£270 million to the EU every week. Therefore the claim in the leaflet is a lie. Doesn't matter about gross or nett it's factually incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

And today the Daily Mail is saying Leave should drop their use of the Â£350m figure as  being misleading.  So to  all those who have been defending their use of it?  Or is the Daily Mail wrong?

The Leave campaign have had 41 yrs to come up with a consistent and coherent set of objectives, a strategy and a plan for such as the economy; and what do we have - a set of individuals with different agendas, objectives and pretty much nothing else.  To paraphrase Amber Rudd (I could never have imagined nodding in agreement with her as much as I did in the recent ITV debate) this just isn't good enough.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And today the Daily Mail is saying Leave should drop their use of the Â£350m figure as  being misleading.  So to  all those who have been defending their use of it?  *Or is the Daily Mail wrong*?

The Leave campaign have had 41 yrs to come up with a consistent and coherent set of objectives, a strategy and a plan for such as the economy; and what do we have - a set of individuals with different agendas, objectives and pretty much nothing else.  To paraphrase Amber Rudd (I could never have imagined nodding in agreement with her as much as I did in the recent ITV debate) this just isn't good enough.
		
Click to expand...

From experience, more than likely yes.  On any subject.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			From experience, more than likely yes.  On any subject.
		
Click to expand...

They are good for the footie results though &#128513;


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And today the Daily Mail is saying Leave should drop their use of the Â£350m figure as  being misleading.  So to  all those who have been defending their use of it?  Or is the Daily Mail wrong?

The Leave campaign have had 41 yrs to come up with a consistent and coherent set of objectives, a strategy and a plan for such as the economy; and what do we have - a set of individuals with different agendas, objectives and pretty much nothing else.  To paraphrase Amber Rudd (I could never have imagined nodding in agreement with her as much as I did in the recent ITV debate) this just isn't good enough.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, both sides have been well and truly slated by a cross party committee for being disingenuous.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			From experience, more than likely yes.  On any subject.
		
Click to expand...




Tashyboy said:



			They are good for the footie results though &#128513;
		
Click to expand...

Last week they got the date correct every day at the top of the front page.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			From experience, more than likely yes.  On any subject.
		
Click to expand...

So even the Brexit supporting Daily Mail is wrong on this.

Oh well.  I suppose we just add the DM - along with the group of 13 Nobel prize winning scientists (what do they know about anything)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36505736

to the _Leave_ list of those who 'are misguided, misinformed or plain scaremongerers'.

Meanwhile _Leave_ congratulate themselves on their tactic for the ITV Debate - _'just tell Bojo to keep his mouth shut and stop waving his arms about - he'll look a little bit more statesmanlike so maybe we'll manage to fool a few gullibles into thinking that he's a serious politician'_

That'll do it. We've got a plan.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I had a cynical thought today about the timing of the Referendum.  It seems to coincide with the latest deadline for Greece to meet it's next debt repayment so that more support can be given them.   I have a gut feeling that Greece will not meet this payment but will go though the normal 'The cheques in the post' routine for a few weeks.  After this there will be a call to sink another mega bunch of spondulas their way to stop the domino effect on the other failing basket case Euro countries.  I think the Germans will refuse to fund any more and the IMF will walk away from it.   This would be the time all reassurances that the UK are exempt from contributing will be torn up and if we stay we will be hung up to dry and told that we had the chance to get out.

Just a hunch but will be interested to se how it unfolds.
		
Click to expand...

Good grief that's different level speculation! I don't think I've read something more farfetched since Harry Potter. 

Even if this did happen, you know very well that we'll be in the EU for more than 2 years if we vote to leave, so under your financial doomsday scenario would still be screwed. 

I've read a lot of the thread and while I don't agree with your views think that a lot of your posts and opinions are debated in a credible manner. Unfortunately this undoes all of that and more!! 

They can't simply tear up that agreement.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			to the _Leave_ list of those who 'are misguided, misinformed or plain scaremongerers'.
		
Click to expand...

You forgot "vested interests".


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			You forgot "vested interests".
		
Click to expand...

An epithet that applies for every single person in the land - we each and every one of us have a vested interest in the outcome of the EU Referendum.  It just so happens that some of us have more visibility than others of the bigger picture in their own sphere of interest.  It is therefore fatuous to condemn and then ignore their views as being simply out of 'vested interest'.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Good grief that's different level speculation! I don't think I've read something more farfetched since Harry Potter. 

Even if this did happen, you know very well that we'll be in the EU for more than 2 years if we vote to leave, so under your financial doomsday scenario would still be screwed. 

I've read a lot of the thread and while I don't agree with your views think that a lot of your posts and opinions are debated in a credible manner. Unfortunately this undoes all of that and more!! 

They can't simply tear up that agreement.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have completely ignored the last paragraph of my post


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An epithet that applies for every single person in the land - we each and every one of us have a vested interest in the outcome of the EU Referendum.  It just so happens that some of us have more visibility than others of the bigger picture in their own sphere of interest.  It is therefore fatuous to condemn and then ignore their views as being simply out of 'vested interest'.
		
Click to expand...

What makes me smile about it is they somehow think it's EU money being used. There is no such thing as Eu money, it's our taxpayers money that we will still be able to spend on research and development just like Norway does.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What makes me smile about it is they somehow think it's EU money being used. There is no such thing as Eu money, it's our taxpayers money that we will still be able to spend on research and development just like Norway does.
		
Click to expand...

They take the view that they do not believe a UK gov will fund scientific research to the extent that it is by the EU; and given the shambles the economy will be in following a Brexit I can understand their concern; but they also note how UK science and scientists lead in so many ways in the EU and they will lose that and all that it brings.

And so today we are going to be like Norway.  So that's for science - now what was it we were going to be like Switzerland? We are going to be Australia for immigration - so it can't be that.  41yrs _Leave_ have had to come up with something coherent - and their view of life outside of the EU is...I haven't a clue - it's all guesswork, hopes, wishes and assertions, a fishing about this country and that for examples of who we might be like. Ausnorland sounds good.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They take the view that they do not believe a UK gov will fund scientific research to the extent that it is by the EU; and given the shambles the economy *might *be in following a Brexit I can understand their concern; but they also note how UK science and scientists lead in so many ways in the EU and they will lose that and all that it brings.

And so today we are going to be like Norway.  So that's for science - now what was it we were going to be like Switzerland? We are going to be Australia for immigration - so it can't be that.  41yrs _Leave_ have had to come up with something coherent - and their view of life outside of the EU is...I haven't a clue - it's all guesswork, hopes, wishes and assertions, a fishing about this country and that for examples of who we might be like. Ausnorland sounds good.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2016)

Wasn't sure whether to post on here or start a new thread on the Queen's Birthday Honours list as it is surely unconnected to views on the referendum but did anyone see the list of names that got honours this year. Included in the list are the guy that has bankrolled the Remain campaign along with a couple of other donors, as well as several of the businessmen that signed the open letter supporting Remain and several of the health workers and scientists that signed the other letter supporting Remain. 

But I'm sure it's all a coincidence and totally unconnected to the referendum and they haven't been bought off by Cameron and Remain.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They take the view that they do not believe a UK gov will fund scientific research to the extent that it is by the EU; and given the shambles the economy will be in following a Brexit I can understand their concern; but they also note how UK science and scientists lead in so many ways in the EU and they will lose that and all that it brings.

And so today we are going to be like Norway.  So that's for science - now what was it we were going to be like Switzerland? We are going to be Australia for immigration - so it can't be that.  41yrs _Leave_ have had to come up with something coherent - and their view of life outside of the EU is...I haven't a clue - it's all guesswork, hopes, wishes and assertions, a fishing about this country and that for examples of who we might be like. Ausnorland sounds good.
		
Click to expand...

An Australian archaeologist and his team are being funded by the EU for work in the Cambodian jungle. The Swiss are being funded by the EU for the Horizon 2020 project(â‚¬80 BILLION, yes *BILLION*).

And then there's the following non-EU countries receiving science funding.
~Albania 
Bosnia and Herzegovina 
Faroe Islands 
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 
Iceland 
Israel
Moldova
Montenegro 
Norway
Serbia 
Switzerland 
Turkey 
Ukraine

Bearing in mind all the research currently underway, do you really think they'll move it, having to find new people and premises? Really?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They take the view that they do not believe a UK gov will fund scientific research to the extent that it is by the EU; and given the shambles the economy will be in following a Brexit I can understand their concern; but they also note how UK science and scientists lead in so many ways in the EU and they will lose that and all that it brings.

And so today we are going to be like Norway.  So that's for science - now what was it we were going to be like Switzerland? We are going to be Australia for immigration - so it can't be that.  41yrs _Leave_ have had to come up with something coherent - and their view of life outside of the EU is...I haven't a clue - it's all guesswork, hopes, wishes and assertions, a fishing about this country and that for examples of who we might be like. Ausnorland sounds good.
		
Click to expand...

Struth! you really do have a hatred for people with alternative views.  You were using the same type of arguments for Scotland breaking away and going it alone but of course that was a different situation for some reason.  Oh! I know, it's because it was Scotland.

Just think it through a bit and calm down dear.  No one has suggested the UK would fund all these Research projects alone, they would decide how they wanted to collaborate and make suitable funding towards these projects, thats exactly what Norway does now.   The World doesn't end outside the EU, most countries in the World happen to be outside the EU and they manage to do a bit of research and even collaborate with others.

It's actually a good policy to look at what works well around the World and consider adopting 'best in class solutions'.If you don't then you are being a narrow minded little Englander/Scotsman/German/Whatever.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2016)

The two faces of a British Prime Minister.

He managed to stop himself just in time [bubble] Oh no I can't say that because of the ffffff Scots]


http://wingsoverscotland.com/were-keeping-this-one/


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jun 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Leave campaign have had 41 yrs to come up with a consistent and coherent set of objectives, a strategy and a plan for such as the economy; and what do we have - a set of individuals with different agendas, objectives and pretty much nothing else.  To paraphrase Amber Rudd (I could never have imagined nodding in agreement with her as much as I did in the recent ITV debate) this just isn't good enough.
		
Click to expand...

Why should Leave have to have a set of objectives etc when Remain's argument seems to be:

_If you don't do as I tell you I'll get my big brother to beat you up.

_Successive governments have weakened the UK's position in Europe and there are lots and lots  (and lots) of people who see us as the whipping boys of Europe. Given that the people who have put us in that position are the ones suggesting that we're better off with the status quo, wouldn't be a good idea if they talked about all the good stuff that they have done for the 30-40 million people who currently doubt them rather than just saying how bad it will be if we leave?

From a personal viewpoint:
My sister nearly died because of cutbacks in the NHS
My father & father-in-law both had a huge drop in their pensions because of the problems with Equitable Life
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer
The education system in this country is elitist and failing millions
Plans to build on Green Belt land proves that this country is overpopulated
I could go on but you get the idea....

That is the state of my England.

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we stay 'in'?


----------



## User62651 (Jun 12, 2016)

Sooner this thing is over the better, absolutely sick of the sight of Cameron on tv every single day ranting on the same old message with rarely a positive, all negative, has he no other work to do as PM? He's pushing too hard imo, needs to back off a bit I think and let others speak for remain. Coming across as utter panic, think it's every bit as much about his own future rather than the UK's.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Why should Leave have to have a set of objectives etc when Remain's argument seems to be:

_If you don't do as I tell you I'll get my big brother to beat you up.

_Successive governments have weakened the UK's position in Europe and there are lots and lots  (and lots) of people who see us as the whipping boys of Europe. Given that the people who have put us in that position are the ones suggesting that we're better off with the status quo, wouldn't be a good idea if they talked about all the good stuff that they have done for the 30-40 million people who currently doubt them rather than just saying how bad it will be if we leave?

From a personal viewpoint:
My sister nearly died because of cutbacks in the NHS
My father & father-in-law both had a huge drop in their pensions because of the problems with Equitable Life
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer
The education system in this country is elitist and failing millions
Plans to build on Green Belt land proves that this country is overpopulated
I could go on but you get the idea....

That is the state of my England.

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we stay 'in'?
		
Click to expand...

How will they improve if they are already failing whilst we're in? Surely staying in means they will stay the same, i.e. continue to fail?

But at least the EU look after the environment.... Apart from the fracking where we are one of the few countries that are doing it.


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			How will they improve if they are already failing whilst we're in? Surely staying in means they will stay the same, i.e. continue to fail?

But at least the EU look after the environment.... Apart from the fracking where we are one of the few countries that are doing it.
		
Click to expand...

I thought you stayed in Scotland now? No fracking in Scotland.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Why should Leave have to have a set of objectives etc when Remain's argument seems to be:

_If you don't do as I tell you I'll get my big brother to beat you up.

_Successive governments have weakened the UK's position in Europe and there are lots and lots  (and lots) of people who see us as the whipping boys of Europe. Given that the people who have put us in that position are the ones suggesting that we're better off with the status quo, wouldn't be a good idea if they talked about all the good stuff that they have done for the 30-40 million people who currently doubt them rather than just saying how bad it will be if we leave?

From a personal viewpoint:
My sister nearly died because of cutbacks in the NHS
My father & father-in-law both had a huge drop in their pensions because of the problems with Equitable Life
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer
The education system in this country is elitist and failing millions
Plans to build on Green Belt land proves that this country is overpopulated
I could go on but you get the idea....

That is the state of my England.

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we stay 'in'?
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we leave? As a chair of a governing board I am interested in how leaving the EU will improve the' elitist education system that is failing millions'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2016)

Thoughts from abroad on Switzerland and Norway as models for a Brexitted UK

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-switzerland-and-norway-models-a-1096952.html


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2016)

If the UK votes to leave the EU but agrees to free movement of workers as part of the deal to maintain access to EU trade could we ban EU migrants that don't have jobs (so aren't "workers" if they are unemployed) to come here for and say that EU citizens could not claim any benefits in the UK? Or are those things all tied up in the free movement regulations?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thoughts from abroad on Switzerland and Norway as models for a Brexitted UK

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-switzerland-and-norway-models-a-1096952.html

Click to expand...

There's one glaring inaccuracy early on in the article in relation to Switzerland's agreement on the free movement of people. According to the article, Switzerland's agreement "is static" and hasn't changed since the day it was signed. Its changed twice in the last two years. 

When the EU started negotiations with Turkey on the free movement of people, Switzerland said it wouldn't agree to this. The EU withheld science project funding until the Swiss backed down.

Looks like Das Spiegel is as accurate as the UK's Red Tops!!!

As an aside, David Cameron once again, on the Andrew Marr show this morning, said that there's no way Turkey will be able to join the EU for decades. I wish Andrew Marr had then asked about the two senior Civil Servants who are currently in Ankara negotiating a visa-free deal. Maybe they won't join but it looks like they don't have to... some great articles in today's Times about the proposed legislation currently being suspended till July so as not to give the Brexiters any more leverage!!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			...
Looks like Das Spiegel is as accurate as the UK's Red Tops!!!
....
		
Click to expand...

Impressive! You've just neutered Der Spiegel with that comment.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Impressive! You've just neutered Der Spiegel with that comment. 

Click to expand...

There's a few Red Tops I wouldn't mind nuking

Der Die Das... tomato, tomarto...


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jun 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we leave? As a chair of a governing board I am interested in how leaving the EU will improve the' elitist education system that is failing millions'.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely probably maybe not



BUT....

Idiocy is doing the same thing and expecting different results and all that.

And we have to start somewhere:

I'm not even sure that leaving is the best option, I'm just sure that all the arguments I've heard recently are pretty facile

I think we need to get our infrastructure right before we worry about who's the bigger dick - Cameron or Johnson

Quick  aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			There's one glaring inaccuracy early on in the article in relation to Switzerland's agreement on the free movement of people. According to the article, Switzerland's agreement "is static" and hasn't changed since the day it was signed. Its changed twice in the last two years. 

When the EU started negotiations with Turkey on the free movement of people, Switzerland said it wouldn't agree to this. The EU withheld science project funding until the Swiss backed down.

Looks like Das Spiegel is as accurate as the UK's Red Tops!!!

As an aside, David Cameron once again, on the Andrew Marr show this morning, said that there's no way Turkey will be able to join the EU for decades. I wish Andrew Marr had then asked about the two senior Civil Servants who are currently in Ankara negotiating a visa-free deal. Maybe they won't join but it looks like they don't have to... some great articles in today's Times about the proposed legislation currently being suspended till July so as not to give the Brexiters any more leverage!!
		
Click to expand...

Cameron is a slippery Eel.    He didn't say he would veto Turkey's  membership, when he says decades he is probably talking about less than 10 years, he is not mentioning whether he will allow Turkish citizens the right to visa access to the UK even though we are not part of Schengen.   On the Marr show he said he would stay on as PM if we voted to Leave the EU but I am sure he would only want to do that so he could negotiate a free movement of people and high UK contributions to retain access to the Single Market.   I have a feeling Cameron has a personal interest in the EU and this is tied to his wish not to stand as PM after the current term, I think there will be a lucrative job on offer that will set him up for life.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we leave? As a chair of a governing board I am interested in how leaving the EU will improve the' elitist education system that is failing millions'.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you can explain how staying in will improve it?  If we have any sovereignty at all then these issues are our own business and I hope it will continue to be so whatever way the referendum goes.   I dread the day when the EU takes over our Education system.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Quick  aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?
		
Click to expand...

To me, you are looking at it the wrong way around!

Instead of reducing the ability of private schools to produce an excellent education, the solution is to raise the standard of the education produced in the state system!

And that could even be by requiring the private system to provide a significant number of 'public'y funded' places!

But none of the things you are moaning about are really directly related to whether or not UK is in the EU or not...so back to that....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you can explain how staying in will improve it?  If we have any sovereignty at all then these issues are our own business and I hope it will continue to be so whatever way the referendum goes.   I dread the day when the EU takes over our Education system.
		
Click to expand...

I don't, and that is kind of the point.  Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact.  At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU.  Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects.  But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision. 

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 13, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I don't, and that is kind of the point.  Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact.  At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU.  Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects.  But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision. 

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, balanced post.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Excellent, balanced post.
		
Click to expand...

Is it? I'm sorry, I will try again with half baked conspiracy theories and regurgitation of simplified political scaremongering soundbites if you want.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Absolutely probably maybe not



BUT....

Idiocy is doing the same thing and expecting different results and all that.

And we have to start somewhere:

I'm not even sure that leaving is the best option, I'm just sure that all the arguments I've heard recently are pretty facile

I think we need to get our infrastructure right before we worry about who's the bigger dick - Cameron or Johnson

*Quick  aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?*

Click to expand...

You'd need more than a post in a golf forum to solve the problems of the education system and much cleverer people than me have tried and failed.  But just one thing, most schools will have to become academies by 2022.  And all academies are registered charities. Not sure if you are talking about a tax thing? If so then I expect the monies raised by taxing private schools would be a drop in the ocean and not really significant in any way. There is actually money around in education but it is being thrown at free schools and academies and increasingly diverted away from local authorities education departments and therefore schools that are still maintained by local authorities.

Private schools are what they are, places where people pay a lot of money for their children to get good academic qualifications plus arguably at some schools additional networking benefits later on in life. No government is going to do much to them as most of their kids went to them, plus they do get results which makes our education system better in international comparisons between countries.  

What I would argue does need to be done more is sharing of best practice between these places and state schools.  This does happen more and more but it can always improve.  And that will have a much bigger impact than worrying about their tax status. But to reiterate, bugger all to do with the EU so last I will say on it in this thread.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it? I'm sorry, I will try again with half baked conspiracy theories and regurgitation of simplified political scaremongering soundbites if you want. 

Click to expand...

Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I don't, and that is kind of the point.  Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact.  At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU.  Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects.  But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision. 

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that your post is well written and that Education is in general pretty EU neutral.

Regarding some Teachers coming from the EU, I don't see that would change if we leave as we will still require immigrants and whatever system we have in place people like Teachers would be allowed.  I can remember some of my Teachers were from France and Germany back in the 1960s

I'm a bit confused  with your comment about the Children from seasonal migrant workers.  Are there that many seasonal migrant workers bringing their children to the UK for schooling?  I thought the case always being made is that most are single and contribute more than they receive. Also, this must be very bad for schools as I imagine the children dont speak English and bad for the Children as they are changing school for short periods.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.
		
Click to expand...

Can you show me where Gove said this?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.
		
Click to expand...

Gove's rank hypocrisy this morning using the case of that Australian family who are threatened with deportation to argue for tighter immigration controls from Europe was breathtaking.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree that your post is well written and that Education is in general pretty EU neutral.

Regarding some Teachers coming from the EU, I don't see that would change if we leave as we will still require immigrants and whatever system we have in place people like Teachers would be allowed.  I can remember some of my Teachers were from France and Germany back in the 1960s

I'm a bit confused  with your comment about the Children from seasonal migrant workers.  Are there that many seasonal migrant workers bringing their children to the UK for schooling?  I thought the case always being made is that most are single and contribute more than they receive. Also, this must be very bad for schools as I imagine the children dont speak English and bad for the Children as they are changing school for short periods.
		
Click to expand...

I do not know if teachers coming in will change either, I am not using that as an argument to stay/leave, but from being involved in educational type forums much like this one, that is a fear in some areas. There may well still be opportunities for EU teachers to come to the UK.  But I think the argument is that some may feel that it is more trouble than it is worth if they have to go though whatever extra employment hoops being in the EU negates. So they will just go to another EU country instead.

Also with regards to children of migrant workers than again yes I imagine the numbers are very small.  But it is purely a numbers thing for small rural schools where they tend to end up in. The more kids schools have the more money they get in grants, and some of these schools are very small.  Most maintained schools are financially feeling the pinch to put it politely, so extra kids means extra money which can make the difference between having to make teachers redundant or not.  Or even a school being viable and sustainable.  And that is not some fanciful scare story as I have personal experience of that.  Nothing to do with EU migrant workers kids as that is not an issue where I live, but the same principal, not enough kids to effectively pay the teachers wages.  And my school is by no means unique in that.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you show me where Gove said this?
		
Click to expand...

Why?

Just enter Google.. type in 'Gove and Scottish immigration' and choose any of the following.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2016)

Was just reading the Gove story and saw that the UK will be taking over the presidency of the EU in 2017. In the event of a Leave vote we could negotiate some cracking deals for ourselves........

UK PM - "we're leaving but we want full access to the single market, no free movement of workers, 50% discount on all goods we import from the EU and you have to pay us Â£10 billion per year for all of this"

UK EU president - "OK"


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl:

It's not so much the the half-truths that everyone has (or at least should have) come to realise are the way *all* politicians work, but the complete - and obvious - impossibility of actually implementing such a policy!

Difficult for him to sink any lower in my opinion (not from his support of leaving the EU, I hasten to add), but, by saying this, he has certainly done so! I hope he very rapidly gets asked about the practicality of implementing such a proposal, or whether he has ever driven on the M6 past Carlisle, used Virgin Trains to Waverley or Glasgow Central or heard of National Express buses!

With that ridiculous spiel, he has made Boris the Buffoon (or 'Oh Dear' Osborne to be even-handed!) seem more like a 'proper' politician! 

A gaffe of the highest order, that should haunt him for the rest of the campaign, but will quite possibly be simply forgotten amongst all the other ridiculous/outrageous claims - by both sides!


----------



## ger147 (Jun 13, 2016)

So is the Gove plan to have a wee portacabin just north of Berwich Upon Tweed a la North Korea with a bunch of Police Scotland cars facing south towards the opposing Northumberland police force?

Meanwhile a fleet of gun boats patrolling off the coast to stop the illicit shortbread smugglers from getting their banned produce to the English masses each Hogmany?

I think his idea needs a bit more work...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2016)

So it looks like under Brexit NI and Scotland will have it's own borders.
Wasn't that what the [now separatist] unionists fought tooth and nail against only two years ago.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So it looks like under Brexit NI and Scotland will have it's own borders.
Wasn't that what the [now separatist] unionists fought tooth and nail against only two years ago.
		
Click to expand...

Will it ever be possible for you to post something sensible. You constantly post absurd statements and they are mostly anti English.   I guess that makes you a prime Xenophobe.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Will it ever be possible for you to post something sensible. You constantly post absurd statements and they are mostly anti English.   I guess that makes you a prime Xenophobe.
		
Click to expand...

Ahem.....they are not my statements, they were comments made by two Brexit politicians.
You must obviously disagree with them.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2016)

I've read the headlines about Gove and they don't seem to tally with the couple of stories that I have gone on to read. These quotes in particular seems reasonable........

"Ultimately, immigration is a good thing for Britain and for Scotland. But if immigration is to be controlled, then we have to be outside the European Union because within the EU there is no means by which we can control the number of people who come from other EU nations."
"If, in the course of the negotiations, the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in deciding how a particular visa system could work, much as it works in other parts of the European Economic Area, then that is something we'll look into.
"Ultimately, the numbers who would come in the future would be decided by the Westminster parliament and the Holyrood parliament working together."


or is this just being used as another way to criticise the Leave campaign? I can't see anywhere that he is suggesting border controls between Scotland and England.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ahem.....they are not my statements, they were comments made by two Brexit politicians.
You must obviously disagree with them.
		
Click to expand...

Grosly exaggerated as normal to suit your  xenophobic agenda.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've read the headlines about Gove and they don't seem to tally with the couple of stories that I have gone on to read. These quotes in particular seems reasonable........

"Ultimately, immigration is a good thing for Britain and for Scotland. But if immigration is to be controlled, then we have to be outside the European Union because within the EU there is no means by which we can control the number of people who come from other EU nations."
"If, in the course of the negotiations, the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in deciding how a particular visa system could work, much as it works in other parts of the European Economic Area, then that is something we'll look into.
"Ultimately, the numbers who would come in the future would be decided by the Westminster parliament and the Holyrood parliament working together."


or is this just being used as another way to criticise the Leave campaign? I can't see anywhere that he is suggesting border controls between Scotland and England.
		
Click to expand...

But these ones don't!....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...ael-Gove-immigration-Vote-Leave-EU-referendum

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...nd-new-immigration-powers-says-gove-tlvbzr3v5

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-immigration-quotas-snp-scottish-independence

And for a 'neutral' comment....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36515897


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2016)

It was the BBC story I took the quotes from. I still haven't seen anywhere that he has suggested border controls between Scotland and England that was suggested by a previous poster, even in any of the links you've posted. Yes he's said that Scotland could decide who moved there but that's not the same thing. I would assume that if Scotland needed more nurses they could put a weighting on the points required to move to Scotland as a nurse. If England or Wales didn't need nurses at that particular time then the points weighting would be lower. If that nurse who had moved to Scotland then wanted to relocate to somewhere else in the UK they would still have to apply for that position and would go by whatever weighting was in use in that particular region.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 14, 2016)

If you want to control the borders between England and Scotland, you could put a wall up.   They did that the last time the Scots had a decent football team


----------



## woody69 (Jun 14, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If you want to control the borders between England and Scotland, you could put a wall up.   They did that the last time the Scots had a decent football team 

Click to expand...

So, never?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2016)

The bloody EU are at it again, interfering and overturning our laws. Can we not set any laws ourselves anymore, did St George, Richard the Lionheart and Rod Hull die in vain for this !!!!  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2016)

Had the Remain leaflet through the door today. Like the Leave leaflet that came through last week the are lots of statements without any facts or evidence to back them up. Why are both sides of the campaign so intent on not providing anything to support their statements?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Had the Remain leaflet through the door today. Like the Leave leaflet that came through last week the are lots of statements without any facts or evidence to back them up. Why are both sides of the campaign so intent on not providing anything to support their statements?
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because no one actually knows what will happen so they are both slagging off the other side and occasionally spewing out predictions to reinforce which ever stance they support? Plus political campaigning nowadays consists 90% on what is wrong with your opponents and 10% at best on what you will actually do.  So you can't be held to account for not doing it if you win.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If you want to control the borders between England and Scotland, you could put a wall up.   They did that the last time the Scots had a decent football team 

Click to expand...

Hey you.............. I'll have you know that Scotland have not conceded a single goal in major football finals since 1998.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2016)

Anyone know what will happen to our Passports and mobile roaming charges if Brexit win ?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know what will happen to our Passports and mobile roaming charges if Brexit win ?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing for two years. After that no idea. But I'm sure that Leave have it covered.


----------



## Fish (Jun 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hey you.............. I'll have you know that Scotland have not conceded a single goal in major football finals since 1998.
		
Click to expand...

That's because you've not been in any :rofl:


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 14, 2016)

Ultimately nobody knows. It makes sense for everyone for certain things to remain the same but there may be a certain level of unravelling.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know what will happen to our Passports and mobile roaming charges if Brexit win ?
		
Click to expand...

it will cost more to use your passport to phone home from EU countries??


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know what will happen to our Passports and mobile roaming charges if Brexit win ?
		
Click to expand...

The passports issue ill be the same as before we joined a common market - Belgium/Holland, no bugger at the boarder, just drive straight through - rest of the EU, cursory glance if they could be bothered and on your way - lets hope we get our nice blue ones back.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It was the BBC story I took the quotes from. I still haven't seen anywhere that he has suggested border controls between Scotland and England that was suggested by a previous poster, even in any of the links you've posted. Yes he's said that Scotland could decide who moved there but that's not the same thing. I would assume that if Scotland needed more nurses they could put a weighting on the points required to move to Scotland as a nurse. If England or Wales didn't need nurses at that particular time then the points weighting would be lower. If that nurse who had moved to Scotland then wanted to relocate to somewhere else in the UK they would still have to apply for that position and would go by whatever weighting was in use in that particular region.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## drdel (Jun 14, 2016)

David Cameron has all the answers, well he did a few years ago when he spoke and wrote vehemently about getting out of the EU. However, of course, he was a backbench MP looking for an upward move in UK politics.

10 years on he's changed his tune - could it be he's looking to move upwards in EU politics


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2016)

drdel said:



			David Cameron has all the answers, well he did a few years ago when he spoke and wrote vehemently about getting out of the EU. However, of course, he was a backbench MP looking for an upward move in UK politics.

10 years on he's changed his tune - could it be he's looking to move upwards in EU politics
		
Click to expand...

You do realise that the position of most Tory MPs in this debate is mostly driven by their naked political ambition and very little about how they actually feel about Europe. There's only about 17 tory MPS who are mostly quite old that passionately care about is being out of Europe and see it as a major issue. I suspect most of them would say up is down if it meant a shot at a major position in the government.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do realise that the position of most Tory MPs in this debate is mostly driven by their naked political ambition and very little about how they actually feel about Europe. There's only about 17 tory MPS who are mostly quite old that passionately care about is being out of Europe and see it as a major issue. I suspect most of them would say up is down if it meant a shot at a major position in the government.
		
Click to expand...

No different than any other MP in any party then.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 14, 2016)

So the Brexit camp is winning the surveys.. Glad I shorted the Sterling.. It is in free fall v/s my chosen currency, so I am quids in (for now).  Not liking the prospect of the Sterling in the long run though..


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So the Brexit camp is winning the surveys.. Glad I shorted the Sterling.. It is in free fall v/s my chosen currency, so I am quids in (for now).  Not liking the prospect of the Sterling in the long run though..
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder who was short selling sterling to force the Remain position. Maybe Cameron told the BoE to do it...?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I did wonder who was short selling sterling to force the Remain position. Maybe Cameron told the BoE to do it...?
		
Click to expand...

He's done his best to talk sterling down so he must have a shed load of Dollars stuffed somewhere in Bermuda.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So the Brexit camp is winning the surveys.. Glad I shorted the Sterling.. It is in free fall v/s my chosen currency, so I am quids in (for now).  Not liking the prospect of the Sterling in the long run though..
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			I did wonder who was short selling sterling to force the Remain position. Maybe Cameron told the BoE to do it...?
		
Click to expand...


PS, I shifted a load into Euros two weeks ago @1.32â‚¬.. It's hanging around 1.26â‚¬ since last Thursday. Think I'm about Â£9k up at present.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2016)

Fish said:



			That's because you've not been in any :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Oh deary me


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			The passports issue ill be the same as before we joined a common market - Belgium/Holland, no bugger at the boarder, just drive straight through - rest of the EU, cursory glance if they could be bothered and on your way - lets hope we get our nice blue ones back.
		
Click to expand...

I was meaning the logistics and renewal costs of changing millions of passports from EU to UK within two years.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			No different than any other MP in any party then.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.  I worded it badly but meant to say that most MPs would say or do mostly anything for a shot at power.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...even-less-likeable-politicians-20160614109520


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2016)

Boris misleading the country [ie telling porkies] again.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/red-faced-boris-johnson-forced-8193003


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boris misleading the country [ie telling porkies] again.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/red-faced-boris-johnson-forced-8193003

Click to expand...

I think by this stage it is not worth believing anything either side says.  I suspect most people know which way they will vote, so instead of listening, reading, quoting or indeed believing the increasingly manic suggestions by both sides in the run up, do something more productive instead.  Read a book, go for a walk, watch the footy, play a round of golf, go for a beer with mates (assuming they will not drone on about it). Then make your vote on June the 23rd in the same way you would have done before all this coverage happened and deal with the consequences. Whatever they may be.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think by this stage it is not worth believing anything either side says.  I suspect most people know which way they will vote, so instead of listening, reading, quoting or indeed believing the increasingly manic suggestions by both sides in the run up, do something more productive instead.  Read a book, go for a walk, watch the footy, play a round of golf, go for a beer with mates (assuming they will not drone on about it). Then make your vote on June the 23rd in the same way you would have done before all this coverage happened and deal with the consequences. Whatever they may be.
		
Click to expand...

Or, have already voted by post and spend the rest of the run up to the election quietly shaking your head at the dismal sight of both sides making utterly ridiculous claims and a sizeable percentage of each support believing anything that supports their own viewpoint. 
This is quite easily the worst example of democracy I've ever been exposed to.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Or, have already voted by post and spend the rest of the run up to the election quietly shaking your head at the dismal sight of both sides making utterly ridiculous claims and a sizeable percentage of each support believing anything that supports their own viewpoint. 
This is quite easily the worst example of democracy I've ever been exposed to.
		
Click to expand...

The best part is that it is democratic.   Unlike the EU that is.

Just saying


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was meaning the logistics and renewal costs of changing millions of passports from EU to UK within two years.
		
Click to expand...

Silly statement - the passport quite clearly states that the holder is a UK Resident so is easily identifiable as not a member of the herd.  The blue ones can come back on renewal.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 15, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Or, have already voted by post and spend the rest of the run up to the election quietly shaking your head at the dismal sight of both sides making utterly ridiculous claims and a sizeable percentage of each support believing anything that supports their own viewpoint. 
This is quite easily the worst example of democracy I've ever been exposed to.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they should have made this in/out decision in parliament alone and left all us uninformed plebs out of it? Do feel that whatever way it goes, the hoo-ha will die down pretty quickly and we'll just get on with it, the world will keep spinning etc etc.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 15, 2016)

George Osborne has said that if we vote to leave then he will have to put up taxes and spend less on skools, NHS, etc etc.

However 57 Tory MPs have said that will not happen, if it does, his position will be untenable. In essence he will be the first out of a job. Another reason to vote level then me finks.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2016)

Couple of Q's for our remain folk.

Why has the 1/2 term debate on proposals for the EU Budget been delayed until after the vote?

How come the two main people - Call me Dave and I love the EU Corbyn not stood on the same platform to stir the nation into believing the IN campaign,  The same could be said of the Chancellor and his shadow?

Why does the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party think that he can reverse the EU policy on free movement for EU citizens when his boss loves it and the EU have already stated that is the main cornerstone of their policies?

Sounds like the remain team are as disjointed as the out team.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Couple of Q's for our remain folk.

Why has the 1/2 term debate on proposals for the EU Budget been delayed until after the vote?

*How come the two main people - Call me Dave and I love the EU Corbyn not stood on the same platform to stir the nation into believing the IN campaign,  The same could be said of the Chancellor and his shadow?*

Why does the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party think that he can reverse the EU policy on free movement for EU citizens when his boss loves it and the EU have already stated that is the main cornerstone of their policies?

Sounds like the remain team are as disjointed as the out team.
		
Click to expand...

And the same could be said of Farage and Gove.  The reason they do not stand together is that they know the image will be used against them at some future date and it would be political suicide. 

And I'm not sure anyone has claimed any particular side is a collection of like minded people that agree on political matters. As both are made up of people using this for their own political advantage.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boris misleading the country [ie telling porkies] again.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/red-faced-boris-johnson-forced-8193003

Click to expand...

And George Osbourne on the radio this morning... and David Cameron on the radio yesterday - and well done to the presenter for nailing him with hard facts.

Let's be honest, both sides have twisted everything to suit their agenda. Circumspect with half truths at best.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The best part is that it is democratic.   Unlike the EU that is.

Just saying 

Click to expand...

Funny I could have sworn I voted in an EU election. Must have dreamed it....


----------



## User62651 (Jun 15, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Couple of Q's for our remain folk.

Why has the 1/2 term debate on proposals for the EU Budget been delayed until after the vote?

*How come the two main people - Call me Dave and I love the EU Corbyn not stood on the same platform to stir the nation into believing the IN campaign,  The same could be said of the Chancellor and his shadow?*

Why does the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party think that he can reverse the EU policy on free movement for EU citizens when his boss loves it and the EU have already stated that is the main cornerstone of their policies?

Sounds like the remain team are as disjointed as the out team.
		
Click to expand...

Re the one in bold Labour need Scotland seats back for any chance of winning a UK GE in future, being seen campaigning together with the Tories at 'Infyref better together' resulted in a further collapse of Labour support in Scotland, they can't be seen to be in bed with the Tories on any issue imo or they'll never get their support back, they're the 3rd party at Holyrood now and Corbyn knows he needs Scotland back.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...c-directly-from-downing-street-20160615109531


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...c-directly-from-downing-street-20160615109531

Click to expand...

 

Can't wait for him to take control of our country when we vote to leave :thup:


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

No wonder Sterling is struggling when it's being continually knocked by our own chancellor. You could'nt make it up. He could say that if we leave Sterling would take a hit, but being the strong trusted currency it is, will soon rebound.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No wonder Sterling is struggling when it's being continually knocked by our own chancellor. You could'nt make it up. He could say that if we leave Sterling would take a hit, but being the strong trusted currency it is, will soon rebound.
		
Click to expand...

Or he could tell what he "may" consider to be the truth. Or is this a case of "it's remains fault if it all goes bad after we leave"?


----------



## Rooter (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No wonder Sterling is struggling when it's being continually knocked by our own chancellor. You could'nt make it up. He could say that if we leave Sterling would take a hit, but being the strong trusted currency it is, will soon rebound.
		
Click to expand...

So thats why he played so bad last week! Hope Roy gives him a rest tomorrow..


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 15, 2016)

Rooter said:



			So thats why he played so bad last week! Hope Roy gives him a rest tomorrow..
		
Click to expand...

Pmsl :whoo:


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Or he could tell what he "may" consider to be the truth. Or is this a case of "it's remains fault if it all goes bad after we leave"?
		
Click to expand...

The fact is, we could vote to leave. Our chancellor should be preparing sterling for that eventuality not talking it down all the time. Or is it because if we do leave, he won't be around to influence matters anyway?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The fact is, we could vote to leave. Our chancellor should be preparing sterling for that eventuality not talking it down all the time. Or is it because if we do leave, he won't be around to influence matters anyway?
		
Click to expand...

So you're saying he should be supporting Leave's case, by saying "yeh we're strong and we'll recover". OR should he be accurate and rightly warn everyone of the many many risks of voting Leave.

What is your argument around the hit taken to the economy in the last few days, Remains fault as well? Or actually an example of the potential for big issues post leave....


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			...
This is quite easily the worst example of democracy I've ever been exposed to.
		
Click to expand...

I believe this is precisely why many decisions should (and are!) be upwardly delegated to elected - or even appointed (as is the case with the EU) - representatives! And unless an issue has been addressed in the Manifesto, the decisions any government takes are hardly democratic! Was Blair's decision to go to war 'democratic'? Was Cameron's decision to bomb IS 'democratic'? And these are just a couple of 'obvious' ones that immediately spring to mind!  

However, this particular question is an issue where it is absolutely right to have a referendum! And the fact that it was in the manifesto of the party that won the election absolutely requires there to be one!!

The fact that the 'political class' are confirming that most are the lying, conniving scoundrels that most of us thought them to be, is an interesting side-show!


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So you're saying he should be supporting Leave's case, by saying "yeh we're strong and we'll recover". OR should he be accurate and rightly warn everyone of the many many risks of voting Leave.

What is your argument around the hit taken to the economy in the last few days, Remains fault as well? Or actually an example of the potential for big issues post leave....
		
Click to expand...

No problem with him backing his own convictions, but as chancellor he has to support and promote sterling whatever the outcome. 
As for the economy lately, it's no sides fault, just the markets don't like uncertainty. Helped not one iota by Osbourne's constant negativity.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			...
As for the economy lately, it's no sides fault,* just the markets don't like uncertainty*. Helped not one iota by Osbourne's constant negativity.
		
Click to expand...

That's certainly the case! There was enough 'uncertainty' in the last few months, but with surveys indicating gains/maybe a win by Brexit, then both the uncertainty and the likelelihood of a (bigger!) downward effect increases! Not only has Â£GB dropped against $US (and Euro), but Gold has risen against $US - so quite a bit of 'sheltering risk' going on!

Actually, 'the markets' *love* uncetainty! There's normally a huge increase in activity - so fees - and it gives them the opportunity to make (or lose!) serious amounts - which is what many/most of them are actually there to do!


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

Amazed anyone still believes we are going anywhere whatever the outcome of the vote...

In truth its been a bit of a sham since day one...
Too many vested interests involved...

One day [hopefully] we'll get a government who put the people first not the needs of their mates in big business...


Sadly won't be happening in my lifetime...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Rooter said:



			So thats why he played so bad last week! Hope Roy gives him a rest tomorrow..
		
Click to expand...

Think you've won this thread today.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Warning, simplification of reality for comic effect, I repeat, simplification of reality for comic effect.  So don't take it too seriously.

.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Warning, simplification of reality for comic effect, I repeat, simplification of reality for comic effect.  So don't take it too seriously.

.
	View attachment 19759

Click to expand...

I know which side I'm choosing :thup:


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's certainly the case! There was enough 'uncertainty' in the last few months, but with surveys indicating gains/maybe a win by Brexit, then both the uncertainty and the likelelihood of a (bigger!) downward effect increases! Not only has Â£GB dropped against $US (and Euro), but Gold has risen against $US - so quite a bit of 'sheltering risk' going on!
		
Click to expand...

That may be the case, who knows. My initial point was that Osbourne should be doing his utmost to protect sterling from any downward spiral, not dragging it down further with his negative comments.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			That may be the case, who knows. My initial point was that Osbourne should be doing his utmost to protect sterling from any downward spiral, not dragging it down further with his negative comments.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm there's a bit of clicken and egg going on here. Not that I'm defending Osborne for anything, ever, the odious little man.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Warning, simplification of reality for comic effect, I repeat, simplification of reality for comic effect.  So don't take it too seriously.

.
	View attachment 19759

Click to expand...


As a supporter of someone appearing amongst the 'in crowd'...
Hugely disappointed that, when finally falling off the fence, he's come off on the 'wrong' side...

His 2IC seems to be trying to repair the 'damage' from this fall...
But, too little too late I fancy...

Can see a whole lot more 'ordinary' working folk crossing over to the dark side following this...
Which simply can't be good...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			As a supporter of someone appearing amongst the 'in crowd'...
Hugely disappointed that, when finally falling off the fence, he's come off on the 'wrong' side...

His 2IC seems to be trying to repair the 'damage' from this fall...
But, too little too late I fancy...

Can see a whole lot more 'ordinary' working folk crossing over to the dark side following this...
Which simply can't be good...
		
Click to expand...

Picard? Riker is for brexit then?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Picard? Riker is for brexit then?
		
Click to expand...


Hopefully by the time they are around all is good in the world...

And, it hasn't come at a cost to those least able to look after themselves...


----------



## TerryA (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm voting 'leave'
All the arguments are based on supposition - this might happen, that might happen. I say it might not.
What is for certain is that we do not have the infrastructure to cope with the number of people living here right now so I do not want this to get worse.


----------



## IanG (Jun 15, 2016)

Anyone else think that if the result is BREXIT but by a narrow margin, say 53-47 or less, that some euro-fudge will evolve which means the UK ultimately will not leave the EU? 

There is nothing I have more confidence in Brussels about than their ability to play the long fudging game. What shape the fudge will take is beyond my pay-grade but I have a sneaking suspicion that tactics will be deployed to obfuscate until a better climate means a re-run is plausible. 

It has happened several times before - Ireland over Lisbon, and more recently the Swiss referendum over immigration which has been sidestepped.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 15, 2016)

IanG said:



			Anyone else think that if the result is BREXIT but by a narrow margin, say 53-47 or less, that some euro-fudge will evolve which means the UK ultimately will not leave the EU? 

There is nothing I have more confidence in Brussels about than their ability to play the long fudging game. What shape the fudge will take is beyond my pay-grade but I have a sneaking suspicion that tactics will be deployed to obfuscate until a better climate means a re-run is plausible. 

It has happened several times before - Ireland over Lisbon, and more recently the Swiss referendum over immigration which has been sidestepped.
		
Click to expand...

No, if Brexit wins by even 1% there is no way it'll get fudged, feelings run so deep on this one that they have to stand by the result and push it through, this issue has been rumbling since the 1990s and needs settled. Let's hope that if it does go remain we don't have to endure another smug Cameron walking ten feet tall and he can offer some humility and sensible words to try and heal wide divisions, unlike post Indyref 21 months ago. If it does go Brexit then he needs to recognise he's a lame duck and resign within 6 months.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

IanG said:



			Anyone else think that if the result is BREXIT but by a narrow margin, say 53-47 or less, that some euro-fudge will evolve which means the UK ultimately will not leave the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Don't believe we'll be separating unless it's truly a landslide vote to exit... 
And, that looks most unlikely...


And, seeing your avatar, reminds me, I really must get to Scotland at least one more time...


----------



## Pro Zach (Jun 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Picard? Riker is for brexit then?
		
Click to expand...


Picard moved to remain after he was assimilated by the Borg. Whereas Riker was very much against being part of the collective. Resistance is not futile - vote leave on the 23rd.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Picard moved to remain after he was assimilated by the Borg. Whereas Riker was very much against being part of the collective. Resistance is not futile - vote leave on the 23rd.

Click to expand...

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!


----------



## IanG (Jun 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!
		
Click to expand...


Oh, not that old chestnut


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

IanG said:



			Anyone else think that if the result is BREXIT but by a narrow margin, say 53-47 or less, that some euro-fudge will evolve which means the UK ultimately will not leave the EU? 

There is nothing I have more confidence in Brussels about than their ability to play the long fudging game. What shape the fudge will take is beyond my pay-grade but I have a sneaking suspicion that tactics will be deployed to obfuscate until a better climate means a re-run is plausible. 

It has happened several times before - Ireland over Lisbon, and more recently the Swiss referendum over immigration which has been sidestepped.
		
Click to expand...

While I believe there's merit in what you state, Ireland over Lisbon resulted in some guarantees from the EU that appeared to be sufficient swing the vote in the subsequent 2nd referendum. This sort of 'compromise' might be attempted if the vote was marginally 'Out'. However, the EU has declined/refused to negotiate with Switzerland on the subject of immigration (the Swiss referendum was about whether the Swiss government should attempt to negotiate with the EU about immigration). As this also appears to be the biggest issue for the UK, I very much doubt there'd be any fundamental movement by the EU in the area of 'freedom of movement'!


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 15, 2016)

TerryA said:



			I'm voting 'leave'
All the arguments are based on supposition - this might happen, that might happen. I say it might not.
What is for certain is that we do not have the infrastructure to cope with the number of people living here right now so I do not want this to get worse.
		
Click to expand...

a) your argument around the infrastructure isn't a fact, sorry.

b) I quite enjoy that your personal "i say it might not" holds such sway for you. Unless you're hiding some significant political/economic/business qualifications, then your certainty in your own opinion is exactly why the population shouldn't vote on matters like this. People (and i include myself and everyone on this thread) think they can absorb the full impact and come to a decision, when actually it's based on a number of personal assumptions/prejudices.



In a side point not related to the poster above, it's depressing me that the "older" generation could swing the vote against the desires of the youth. the youth will be living through the outcome for a significantly longer time period, and surely if they wish to see the country remain part of the EU then that's the important thing. People have constantly noted this is an ideological thing, not just an immigration, so surely the youth ideology should be prevalent as part of that.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			In a side point not related to the poster above, it's depressing me that the "older" generation could swing the vote against the desires of the youth. the youth will be living through the outcome for a significantly longer time period, and surely if they wish to see the country remain part of the EU then that's the important thing. People have constantly noted this is an ideological thing, not just an immigration, so surely the youth ideology should be prevalent as part of that.
		
Click to expand...

This point was often made about the Scottish independence referendum. It was nonsense then and it's nonsense now. All votes are equal, otherwise what's the point?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This point was often made about the Scottish independence referendum. It was nonsense then and it's nonsense now. All votes are equal, otherwise what's the point?
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm, that's true I guess. It's just my gut reaction. Was the youth of Scotland voting out then?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hmmm, that's true I guess. It's just my gut reaction. Was the youth of Scotland voting out then?
		
Click to expand...

Depending on who you believed! Some of the rhetoric was getting offensive at times. Much like now, truth and integrity was a bit hard to find within the two sides.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			In a side point not related to the poster above, it's depressing me that the "older" generation could swing the vote against the desires of the youth. the youth will be living through the outcome for a significantly longer time period, and surely if they wish to see the country remain part of the EU then that's the important thing. People have constantly noted this is an ideological thing, not just an immigration, so surely the youth ideology should be prevalent as part of that.
		
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying but that's not workable, a vote needs to include everyone equally, democracy ain't perfect.

By this thinking Scotland would be independent now because the young people voted out, the grey vote swung it for staying in UK. Deciding on the basis of only one part of a population isn't right and it could be argued that older people, whilst protecting themselves and fearing change more as they age, have more experience and therefore perhaps better judgement in such things?


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 15, 2016)

You could also argue that if you don't own a house, or have a certain value of money invested in the UK, you shouldn't have a vote either. Add in those too young to know enough to have an opinion,  those too old to remember their  opinion, women, who are easily confused when allowed out of the house  , dog owners, who are obviously insane, any one who owns a French car, or likes cheese.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 15, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			You could also argue that if you don't own a house, or have a certain value of money invested in the UK, you shouldn't have a vote either. Add in those too young to know enough to have an opinion,  those too old to remember their  opinion, women, who are easily confused when allowed out of the house  , dog owners, who are *obviously insane*, any one who owns a French car, or likes cheese.
		
Click to expand...

Boris?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			I know which side I'm choosing :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Thinking about it though, I suppose working on the assumption that anything that Trump, Hopkins and Farage think is a good idea is probably a very bad one that will inevitably lead to more intolerance and hatred in this word, is as good a way of making up your mind as any...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

IanG said:



			Anyone else think that if the result is BREXIT but by a narrow margin, say 53-47 or less, that some euro-fudge will evolve which means the UK ultimately will not leave the EU? 

There is nothing I have more confidence in Brussels about than their ability to play the long fudging game. What shape the fudge will take is beyond my pay-grade but I have a sneaking suspicion that tactics will be deployed to obfuscate until a better climate means a re-run is plausible. 

It has happened several times before - Ireland over Lisbon, and more recently the Swiss referendum over immigration which has been sidestepped.
		
Click to expand...

That cant happen, one vote is enough either way.   If the EU came out before the 23rd and said 'OK, we have this free movement wrong and you can decide your own immigration levels" then it would turn the tide but that just isn't going to happen.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			a) your argument around the infrastructure isn't a fact, sorry.

b) I quite enjoy that your personal "i say it might not" holds such sway for you. Unless you're hiding some significant political/economic/business qualifications, then your certainty in your own opinion is exactly why the population shouldn't vote on matters like this. People (and i include myself and everyone on this thread) think they can absorb the full impact and come to a decision, when actually it's based on a number of personal assumptions/prejudices.



In a side point not related to the poster above, it's depressing me that the "older" generation could swing the vote against the desires of the youth. the youth will be living through the outcome for a significantly longer time period, and surely if they wish to see the country remain part of the EU then that's the important thing. People have constantly noted this is an ideological thing, not just an immigration, so surely the youth ideology should be prevalent as part of that.
		
Click to expand...

a) the argument on the infrastructure is a fact right now and will be more so if we stay in.  For example, it is physically impossible to build enough houses to cover the current immigration levels let alone future demand.   The NHS cannot cope with the level of demand created by immigration at the current rate let alone the projected future levels in we stay.

b) You cant leave constitutional matters like this to businessmen and politicians only, they can only advice the people, do you prefer we throw away democracy, Oh! of course you do as you prefer a non elected elIte to control our lives.

Regarding your side point.  How do you know most young people are in favour of Stay?   I know quite a few who are strongly in favour of leave and in the televised debates I have seen it seemed like this also.   Your comment on Older people is beneath contempt and typical of a growing xenophobia aimed at the older generation.  Who else would you consider de-franchising as their voting patterns may not align with your own?


----------



## IanG (Jun 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			While I believe there's merit in what you state, Ireland over Lisbon resulted in some guarantees from the EU that appeared to be sufficient swing the vote in the subsequent 2nd referendum. This sort of 'compromise' might be attempted if the vote was marginally 'Out'. However, the EU has declined/refused to negotiate with Switzerland on the subject of immigration (the Swiss referendum was about whether the Swiss government should attempt to negotiate with the EU about immigration). As this also appears to be the biggest issue for the UK, I very much doubt there'd be any fundamental movement by the EU in the area of 'freedom of movement'!
		
Click to expand...


I guess I meant that the political classes in Switzerland/Brussels found a way to work around the outcome of the referendum and maintain (more or less) the status quo.


----------



## IanG (Jun 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That cant happen, one vote is enough either way.   If the EU came out before the 23rd and said 'OK, we have this free movement wrong and you can decide your own immigration levels" then it would turn the tide but that just isn't going to happen.
		
Click to expand...


I'm not so confident that the future would necessarily turn out that way. Just one scenario, 1% majority for Brexit , Cameron et al have to resign, Boris becomes PM and makes an arse of himself, vote of no confidence in parliament and Labour and disaffected tories etc vote down the government, new elections result in a  hung parliament. Where are your negotiations now ? After 23.5 months the UK still has no negotiated exit deal with the EU. What happens next? Another scenario: someone cooks up some legal objection to the referendum results - doesn't matter what, just ties things up on courts all over Europe for long enough for a lot of water to pass under the bridge. Nothing concrete can happen until it is resolved. 


Please don't take these scenarios too literally, with them I just try to illustrate that with an army of Sir Humphries and some political machinations in London & Brussels, things can be 'managed',  feet can be dragged. Throw in a fig leaf or two concession from Brussels and who knows what can happen in 2 years.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

IanG said:



			I guess I meant that the political classes in Switzerland/Brussels found a way to work around the outcome of the referendum and maintain (more or less) the status quo.
		
Click to expand...

Er... The EU simply stated that they would not negotiate! And that if Switzerland implemented quotas, then many bilateral agreements, that are linked to the freedom of movement concept, and are advantageous to Switzerland, would be frozen! There's now a movement (that has raised sufficient popularity) to have another referendum to overrule the one 'rejected' by the EU. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-idUSKCN0SL27C20151027


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			a) the argument on the infrastructure is a fact right now and will be more so if we stay in.  For example, it is physically impossible to build enough houses to cover the current immigration levels let alone future demand.   The NHS cannot cope with the level of demand created by immigration at the current rate let alone the projected future levels in we stay. *Why is it a physica impossibility to build new homes? Just because it's not being done doesn't mean it's an impossibility. I personally don't believe it's a fact that the infrastructure is not coping. It's not ideal, but I wouldn't put it down to immigrants. Anyway, I thought the argument that the number of immigrants isn't an issue, you just want to control who comes in?*

b) You cant leave constitutional matters like this to businessmen and politicians only, they can only advice the people, do you prefer we throw away democracy, Oh! of course you do as you prefer a non elected elIte to control our lives. *Where it's such a massive decision that "could" (or could not) ruin our country for a generation, then you're right I don't want the masses to have a say in it. Think of how uninformed the average person is. Then think that 50% of the population is less informed than that. It's scary. I don't personally care about "1 person 1 vote" when it comes to matters like this. Bob from down the road who has never left his village shouldn't have a say on something he doesn't understand. Nor should I (before you think i'm cherry picking)*

Regarding your side point.  How do you know most young people are in favour of Stay?*On the back of polls, which is quite strongly showing the views of the young and the old.*   I know quite a few who are strongly in favour of leave *You may do but that isn't reflected in the polls. *and in the televised debates I have seen it seemed like this also.   Your comment on Older people is beneath contempt and typical of a growing xenophobia aimed at the older generation.  Who else would you consider de-franchising as their voting patterns may not align with your own?*Contempt? Or just a passing comment. Would you want someone to make decisions about your company if they have 1-2 years left of work and therefore wont be bothered what happens when you still work there 20 years down the line? Half the reason for many of the issues we have is as a result of political short termism. We should stop making decisions based on the next couple of years, but focus on the direction of the Country over the next 50. If the elderly generation vote with this in mind, fine, it just doesn't seem that way to me. I'm not discounting their views, please do hold them, but try also to consider what the people want who are going to have to live with it for the next 50+ years. Is that not fair? *

Click to expand...

I've added my comments in bold above.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2016)

The previous one hasn't been 'rejected' by the EU. It is still being negotiated and will be until next year when the immigration quotas will be written into law. And the Swiss People's Party, an anti immigration party, that pushed for quotas in the first place recently won the biggest share of the vote in recent elections so there is a good chance that the new referendum will go the same way as the first one.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			a) the argument on the infrastructure is a fact right now and will be more so if we stay in.  For example, it is physically impossible to build enough houses to cover the current immigration levels let alone future demand.
...
		
Click to expand...

Where are the figures showing this?



SocketRocket said:



			...The NHS cannot cope with the level of demand created by immigration at the current rate let alone the projected future levels in we stay.
...
		
Click to expand...

The NHS never really has been (at least not for a long long time) and never will be truly able to 'cope with the level of demand' irrespective of immigration! It's a black hole, that simply gobbles whatever resources it's provided with. At best, it can only hope to 'optimize' the provision of services against the cost of the services (and funding provided!)! How it measures 'optimize' is a very tricky, and emotive, area!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2016)

On a more personal level my wife works for Rolls Royce so they indirectly fund my lifestyle and golf habit.  So that's my mind made up. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36534172


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I've added my comments in bold above.
		
Click to expand...

We would need to build a house every 4 minutes to cope with current levels.  Not impossible ?

I want us to set our own quotas for immigration annually then select the most relevant people to meet our requirements. 
The number we set would be partially cognisant of the effect on infrastructure.

I dont think people are looking at a short term issue, most are looking at the long term effects of staying in the EU.


----------



## Fish (Jun 15, 2016)

My vote and Mrs Fishes were posted today  

I can now sit back and..................breathe :smirk:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

Fish said:



			My vote and Mrs Fishes were posted today  

I can now sit back and..................breathe :smirk:
		
Click to expand...

Sent ours off Today.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We would need to build a house every 4 minutes to cope with current levels.  Not impossible ?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely not!

That's actually less that number (136900) that were actually were built in 2015! 

Another case of not letting actual data get in the way of a 'good' (well sort of) argument!!

And, of course, the target is for 200K plus per year! - which is actually slightly less than 3 mins per completed house!


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er... The EU simply stated that they would not negotiate! And that if Switzerland implemented quotas, then many bilateral agreements, that are linked to the freedom of movement concept, and are advantageous to Switzerland, would be frozen! There's now a movement (that has raised sufficient popularity) to have another referendum to overrule the one 'rejected' by the EU. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-idUSKCN0SL27C20151027

Click to expand...


Exactly... 'The EU' simply doesn't do 'negotiate'...

Whether you are in or out...

So... Why do folk keep pedalling "we can negotiate from a stronger position whilst in"...


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

Who's going to pay for these houses? Vast majority of eu migrants that find low paying work cannot afford to buy, which is why there's a social housing crisis.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Thinking about it though, I suppose working on the assumption that anything that Trump, Hopkins and Farage think is a good idea is probably a very bad one that will inevitably lead to more intolerance and hatred in this word, is as good a way of making up your mind as any...
		
Click to expand...


Neatly overlooking the DaveCam lead vitriol against Sadiq Khan during the recent London Mayoral election...

Totally shameful...


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Exactly... 'The EU' simply doesn't do 'negotiate'...

Whether you are in or out...

So... Why do folk keep pedalling "we can negotiate from a stronger position whilst in"...
		
Click to expand...

Exactly who has been 'pedaling' that view?

I certainly know that there's a (reasonably valid imo) argument by the Remain folk that while there's a chance to influence EU policy while a 'member of the club', there's no chance of doing so (as per the Swiss example) outside 'the club'! 

And, after all, Cameron certainly managed to negotiate some concessions - as did the Irish by their Lisbon referendum result!

So, clearly 'The EU doesn't do 'negotiate' is wrong!

Whether that's sufficient to make people to decide to stay is a completely different question though!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm suspecting very strongly that a large minority - if not a majority - of those who will vote to leave will vote on grounds of 'immigration'.  And so I am wondering what the 'acceptable' level of immigration for all of those folks actually is. If we accept that many current non-EU immigrants living in the UK will vote Leave because they are upset with the EU because the UK limits the non-EU immigration (see Indian/Pakistani communities in particular) - then we might as well take as our starting point 188,000 non-EU (latest figures).  Maybe add 15% to meet those non-EU expectations - takes us to about 215,000.  

Then we add the EU immigration for 'essential' skilled workers.  How many is that? - I have no idea how many of the last count of EU immigration would have met the criteria - but given my wife was treated in a Private Hospital last two days by three brilliant Romanian nurses and a large minority if not majority seemed to be EU immigrants - I'm guessing quite a lot,  so I'll guess maybe 25% of EU immigrants (184,000) would meet Australian points system type criteria - and we need them,  so that's getting on for 46,000.  And that brings our total to 261,000.

So Leavers with a concern over immigration - how does 261,000 a year sound?

And if you don't like the sound of it what is your number and how do you get to it?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Who's going to pay for these houses? Vast majority of eu migrants that find low paying work cannot afford to buy, which is why there's a social housing crisis.
		
Click to expand...

there is a social housing crisis because Thatcher instigated the right to buy scheme and the current government wish to continue it by forcing housing associations to sell of their stock to the occupiers.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So Leavers with a concern over immigration - how does 261,000 a year sound?
		
Click to expand...

I don't support Leave but surely the answer is that it depends on how many immigrants we need in a particular year. If in that year we only need 75000 or we need 500000 immigrants then 261000 doesn't sound great. If however we need 260000 or 262000 immigrants that year then it sounds about right.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 15, 2016)

I have voted leave. It has zip to do with immigration.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't support Leave but surely the answer is that it depends on how many immigrants we need in a particular year. If in that year we only need 75000 or we need 500000 immigrants then 261000 doesn't sound great. If however we need 260000 or 262000 immigrants that year then it sounds about right.
		
Click to expand...

I understand that - but if the existing immigrant community are being encouraged to vote Leave on grounds that more non-EU immigration will result from a Leave - then we start at 188,000.  And if that figure is too high then we have to deduct my guesstimate 46,000 for essential EU immigrants from number of non-EU immigrants allowed - and not allow ANY increase.  

So  what is the figure Leavers think is acceptable - because I have no idea.  If it's less that 200,000 then the existing Indian/Pakistani etc community are being deceived.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I understand that - but if the existing immigrant community are being encouraged to vote Leave on grounds that more non-EU immigration will result from a Leave - then we start at 188,000.  And if that figure is too high then we have to deduct my guesstimate 46,000 for essential EU immigrants from number of non-EU immigrants allowed - and not allow ANY increase.  

So  what is the figure Leavers think is acceptable - because I have no idea.  If it's less that 200,000 then the existing Indian/Pakistani etc community are being deceived.
		
Click to expand...

Nice to see you are guessing too. The very thing you've criticised others for.

As for Thatcher's right to buy. Corbyn supported the right to buy yesterday.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I understand that - but if the existing immigrant community are being encouraged to vote Leave on grounds that more non-EU immigration will result from a Leave - then we start at 188,000.  And if that figure is too high then we have to deduct my guesstimate 46,000 for essential EU immigrants from number of non-EU immigrants allowed - and not allow ANY increase.  

So  what is the figure Leavers think is acceptable - because I have no idea.  If it's less that 200,000 then the existing Indian/Pakistani etc community are being deceived.
		
Click to expand...

Using your figures surely the existing immigrant community are being encouraged to vote Leave by Cameron's pledge to get net migration down to the tens of thousands, so under 100000. Was it in the Tory election manifesto? If he is to achieve this then migration from non EU countries has to be more than halved to get anywhere close. Who has been encouraging them to vote Leave?


----------



## MarkE (Jun 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			there is a social housing crisis because Thatcher instigated the right to buy scheme and the current government wish to continue it by forcing housing associations to sell of their stock to the occupiers.
		
Click to expand...

Partly. But also the massive influx of people whom social housing is the only option. Councils can't cope (at least in the areas designated for immigrants).


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm suspecting very strongly that a large minority - if not a majority - of those who will vote to leave will vote on grounds of 'immigration'.  And so I am wondering what the 'acceptable' level of immigration for all of those folks actually is. If we accept that many current non-EU immigrants living in the UK will vote Leave because they are upset with the EU because the UK limits the non-EU immigration (see Indian/Pakistani communities in particular) - then we might as well take as our starting point 188,000 non-EU (latest figures).  Maybe add 15% to meet those non-EU expectations - takes us to about 215,000.  

Then we add the EU immigration for 'essential' skilled workers.  How many is that? - I have no idea how many of the last count of EU immigration would have met the criteria - but given my wife was treated in a Private Hospital last two days by three brilliant Romanian nurses and a large minority if not majority seemed to be EU immigrants - I'm guessing quite a lot,  so I'll guess maybe 25% of EU immigrants (184,000) would meet Australian points system type criteria - and we need them,  so that's getting on for 46,000.  And that brings our total to 261,000.

So Leavers with a concern over immigration - how does 261,000 a year sound?

And if you don't like the sound of it what is your number and how do you get to it?
		
Click to expand...

You don't seem to get this points system, let me explain it to you.

It's not about simply setting how many points someone needs to get in then letting in everyone who has enough points.  You start off by looking at what skill requirements you have in a particular year and how many then deciding on numbers based on that, it may be 50,000 or it may be 350,000.   You then apply your points to the people with the required skills up to this number.  You don't just allow any number of EU citizens to come just because they are EU citizens though, thats uncontrolled immigration and not good for the country.

It's no different to the way a Company would employ people.  Can you imagine a company in Gloucestershire that had a requirement for 50 new employees this year and interviewing people for the jobs based on their skills and abilities but letting anyone from Wiltshire have a job irrespective of skill and ability because the Boss likes Wiltshire people.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			there is a social housing crisis because Thatcher instigated the right to buy scheme and the current government wish to continue it by forcing housing associations to sell of their stock to the occupiers.
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find that the right to buy was started under Labour in the 1970's


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 16, 2016)

Edit.... Sorry, decided I CBA with this discussion anymore.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			there is a social housing crisis because Thatcher instigated the right to buy scheme and the current government wish to continue it by forcing housing associations to sell of their stock to the occupiers.
		
Click to expand...

Your obviously blinded by your hatred of anything Tory or am I mistaken when I think that Labour have been in Government since Lady T and did nothing to change the system.

Nice to know you have balanced opinions.


----------



## TerryA (Jun 16, 2016)

Sorry my friend but the infrastructure cannot cope.
A small example - Boston in Lincolnshire - Insufficient schools, Not enough GP's, etc. There are just too many people already on this small island.

By the way, not sure about your 'young people' theory, both my son & daughter and their partners are all voting leave and they are all under 30.


----------



## Fish (Jun 16, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Your obviously blinded by your hatred of anything Tory .
		
Click to expand...

You only just picked up on that...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2016)

TerryA said:



			Sorry my friend but the infrastructure cannot cope.
A small example - Boston in Lincolnshire - Insufficient schools, Not enough GP's, etc. There are just too many people already on this small island.

By the way, not sure about your 'young people' theory, both my son & daughter and their partners are all voting leave and they are all under 30.
		
Click to expand...

So who would do all the agricultural work traditionally done by immigrants on minimum wage at best, if we do not allow the immigrants in? Isn't places like Bernard Matthews farms completely staffed by EU immigrants? 

It's fine saying 'we would force those British people on benefits to do it' but in reality is that going to happen without a whole scale change in our benefits system? Which with the best will in the world, ain't going to happen.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you will find that the right to buy was started under Labour in the 1970's
		
Click to expand...

Not really......... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Buy


----------



## IanG (Jun 16, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er... The EU simply stated that they would not negotiate! And that if Switzerland implemented quotas, then many bilateral agreements, that are linked to the freedom of movement concept, and are advantageous to Switzerland, would be frozen! There's now a movement (that has raised sufficient popularity) to have another referendum to overrule the one 'rejected' by the EU. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-idUSKCN0SL27C20151027

Click to expand...


I think we're sort of agreeing here  .  By hook or by crook  the wheels are in motion which will result in the Swiss anti-immigration referendum outcome not being implemented long term.

I can well see a similar (but different and hard to precisely predict)  scenario playing out in the UK if there is a narrow Brexit win. I guess we'll see in 2 years time if I'm right!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So who would do all the agricultural work traditionally done by immigrants on minimum wage at best, if we do not allow the immigrants in? Isn't places like Bernard Matthews farms completely staffed by EU immigrants? 

It's fine saying 'we would force those British people on benefits to do it' but in reality is that going to happen without a whole scale change in our benefits system? Which with the best will in the world, ain't going to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Och there you go introducing common sense to the debate again, will you never learn:lol:

As well as the East of England agricultural businesses the Highland [Scottish] hospitality industry would not survive without our Eastern European friends. Bearing in mind that there is very low levels of unemployment in the Highlands and traveling to work is not an option for many.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to get this points system, let me explain it to you.

It's not about simply setting how many points someone needs to get in then letting in everyone who has enough points.  You start off by looking at what skill requirements you have in a particular year and how many then deciding on numbers based on that, it may be 50,000 or it may be 350,000.   You then apply your points to the people with the required skills up to this number.  You don't just allow any number of EU citizens to come just because they are EU citizens though, thats uncontrolled immigration and not good for the country.

It's no different to the way a Company would employ people.  Can you imagine a company in Gloucestershire that had a requirement for 50 new employees this year and interviewing people for the jobs based on their skills and abilities but letting anyone from Wiltshire have a job irrespective of skill and ability because the Boss likes Wiltshire people.
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely understand a points system for immigration - but I'm not so clear how that matches with the expectations of no-EU (largely commonwealth) citizens expectation that leaving the EU will enable more non-EU citizens to come to the UK - as that is what they are being told.  Last year 188,000 non-EU citizens came to the UK.  Do you expect that number to fall?  Because that's not what is expected - in fact existing non-EU community expect the number to increase.  

And do we expect to be able to fill all skilled positions from the non-EU community.  Well I suspect that the UK gov would not discriminate between EU and non-EU looking to fill skilled positions.  And so we will have many 10s of thousands of EU citizerns filling these roles.  And so it goes on.

And the question remains about absolute numbers - and it should be answered.  How many is acceptable?  Because very many advocating Leaving on immigration grounds do so on the basis of numbers and pressure on infrastructure.  If we *need *250,000 immigrants a year then that will maintain pressure on infrastructure.  If we only need 50,000 a year to cover essential roles then there are going to be a lot of very upset existing Commonwealth community,

And eventually a lot of the 'mass' of EU citizens working in the UK will return home.  Like the Romanian nurses we were speaking with yesterday - the are going to return to Romania - if not in the next 5-10 yrs (which many will), then for when they retire (interesting that as they won't be creating the 'retired' burden Leavers complain about).  And so in 20yrs time there will be a significant loss of skilled labour as these folks return to their home country - mirrored by an increase in the need for skilled overseas recruitment - and so immigration goes up again.

So then - just for the immediate term - to take pressure off the NHS and other public services, housing etc, and a number that our public services can use for planning purposes - can a Leaver tell me what level of immigration is acceptable.  What is the number?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2016)

TerryA said:



			Sorry my friend but the infrastructure cannot cope.
A small example - Boston in Lincolnshire - Insufficient schools, Not enough GP's, etc. There are just too many people already on this small island.

By the way, not sure about your 'young people' theory, both my son & daughter and their partners are all voting leave and they are all under 30.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough - so what's your number for acceptable net immigration?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Och there you go introducing common sense to the debate again, will you never learn:lol:

As well as the East of England agricultural businesses the Highland [Scottish] hospitality industry would not survive without our Eastern European friends. Bearing in mind that there is very low levels of unemployment in the Highlands and traveling to work is not an option for many.
		
Click to expand...

And as a fella in the South-West said on TV earlier.  Almost everything in the South-West depends upon the immigrant community to keep going.  And that isn't limited to 'skilled' jobs.  

And with unemployment at an 8yr low it seems to me that 1) not that many immigrants are claiming unemployment benefit 2) there is not a huge number of the indigenous population sitting around twiddling their thumbs and angry that immigrants have taken 'their' jobs.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I absolutely understand a points system for immigration - but I'm not so clear how that matches with the expectations of no-EU (largely commonwealth) citizens expectation that leaving the EU will enable more non-EU citizens to come to the UK - as that is what they are being told.  Last year 188,000 non-EU citizens came to the UK.  Do you expect that number to fall?  Because that's not what is expected - in fact existing non-EU community expect the number to increase.  

And do we expect to be able to fill all skilled positions from the non-EU community.  Well I suspect that the UK gov would not discriminate between EU and non-EU looking to fill skilled positions.  And so we will have many 10s of thousands of EU citizerns filling these roles.  And so it goes on.

And the question remains about absolute numbers - and it should be answered.  How many is acceptable?  Because very many advocating Leaving on immigration grounds do so on the basis of numbers and pressure on infrastructure.  If we *need *250,000 immigrants a year then that will maintain pressure on infrastructure.  If we only need 50,000 a year to cover essential roles then there are going to be a lot of very upset existing Commonwealth community,

And eventually a lot of the 'mass' of EU citizens working in the UK will return home.  Like the Romanian nurses we were speaking with yesterday - the are going to return to Romania - if not in the next 5-10 yrs (which many will), then for when they retire (interesting that as they won't be creating the 'retired' burden Leavers complain about).  And so in 20yrs time there will be a significant loss of skilled labour as these folks return to their home country - mirrored by an increase in the need for skilled overseas recruitment - and so immigration goes up again.

So then - just for the immediate term - to take pressure off the NHS and other public services, housing etc, and a number that our public services can use for planning purposes - can a Leaver tell me what level of immigration is acceptable.  What is the number?
		
Click to expand...

It seems a bit futile trying to explain as you just repeat the same points you did before; ignoring what you have been told.

I explained to you that the numbers for immigration would need to be considered annually  based on the needs at the time and the effect on infrastructure would take a part in deciding the numbers.   We already have a great number of people from inside and outside the EU doing jobs here, they don't all go home every year and need replacing so we only need numbers to fulfill needs for the current term.    I hope you can understand that now!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2016)

I see both the leave and in campaign have suspended campaigning today as a mark of respect for the MP that is in a critical condition after being shot and stabbed.  How about we follow suit?


----------



## Fish (Jun 16, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see both the leave and in campaign have suspended campaigning today as a mark of respect for the MP that is in a critical condition after being shot and stabbed.  How about we follow suit?
		
Click to expand...

Good call &#128077;


----------



## drdel (Jun 16, 2016)

^^^ Over reaction - it may be unrelated to the Referendum!  

The confusing reports I've seen seems to indicate she may have stepped into an already heated arguments. That's not to say it isn't a tragic event causes by nutter and I hope she survives and recovers


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2016)

drdel said:



			^^^ Over reaction - it may be unrelated to the Referendum!  

The confusing reports I've seen seems to indicate she may have stepped into an already heated arguments. That's not to say it isn't a tragic event causes by nutter and I hope she survives and recovers
		
Click to expand...

I suspect politicians do not have the heart to campaign and regurgitate the same old arguments when one of their fellow MPs is fighting for their lives after being shot. A nice show of compassion by both campaigns I think. Whether she was campaigning on the EU referendum or not at the time is probably irrelevant.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 16, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see both the leave and in campaign have suspended campaigning today as a mark of respect for the MP that is in a critical condition after being shot and stabbed.  How about we follow suit?
		
Click to expand...

Spot on...


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 17, 2016)

There's an excellent balanced piece by Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian. He neither shouts in or out. He critiques both campaigns, and gives an opinion on the EU in general.

Best bit of journalism I've seen for a while.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect politicians do not have the heart to campaign and regurgitate the same old arguments when one of their fellow MPs is fighting for their lives after being shot. A nice show of compassion by both campaigns I think. Whether she was campaigning on the EU referendum or not at the time is probably irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...

Apart from Ben Bradshaw "a very good friend" who couldn't help himself on Spotlight last night.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 17, 2016)

From a survey conducted by one of the analysts covering the Technology companies ==> (warning no surprises here)

_'... In the last few months, we have garnered the views of most of our major clients. By â€˜majorâ€™ I mean those that provide most of our revenue which tend to be the larger players. They are universally in favour of REMAIN. Indeed many, Fujitsu is but one example, have made it very clear that they would review their investment in the UK in the case of BREXIT. techUK polled its members and found that 82% of its members employing > 250 staff wanted the UK to REMAIN. The greatest support for BREXIT came from micro tech businesses. But even then, â€˜onlyâ€™ 17% of small tech businesses â€“ those with 10- 49 employees â€“ would vote to leave the EU.  Almost all our customers (by what they pay us and therefore who pay our wages/mortgages) are large companies. How you vote is up to you individually. But I think we are now clear that our customers overwhelmingly want to REMAIN.  If the vote is for LEAVE, our customers believe that they will suffer.'
_

Not the unexpected here considering the Tech world is very much interconnected with the world. Customers and talent is global.  Access to finance is crucial. So if any of the three are hit, it will have a knock on effect.


----------



## IanG (Jun 17, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			There's an excellent balanced piece by Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian. He neither shouts in or out. He critiques both campaigns, and gives an opinion on the EU in general.

Best bit of journalism I've seen for a while.
		
Click to expand...


Thanks for highlighting that - it is well worth a read. 

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...eferendum-britain-votes-stay?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 17, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			There's an excellent balanced piece by Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian. He neither shouts in or out. He critiques both campaigns, and gives an opinion on the EU in general.

Best bit of journalism I've seen for a while.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree! Also agree with his view about UK's 'place in EU'! Slightly disappointed that he didn't give a slightly better reason for Remain-ing though! Working for (more fundamental) *change from within* would have a better one imo - and I think the economics actually *does* favour Remain, though, like him, not to the extent that Osborne et al are pedaling!

It's no surprise to me how often 'proper' journalism comes from The Guardian (and also The Independent)! I want to have both sides of any contentious piece of news written up so I can make my own mind up (allowing for my own 'prejudices') rather than simply being told what to do! I can even remember considering the Beeb seemed significantly 'anti-Soviet-bloc' (even for my slightly right of centre overall views) when I first came over here ('88), but fear the 'Russia is bad' propaganda machine has worked, as it (the Beeb) doesn't seem to be so bad, even though I suspect it is, these days!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems a bit futile trying to explain as you just repeat the same points you did before; ignoring what you have been told.

I explained to you that the numbers for immigration would need to be considered annually  based on the needs at the time and the effect on infrastructure would take a part in deciding the numbers.   We already have a great number of people from inside and outside the EU doing jobs here, they don't all go home every year and need replacing so we only need numbers to fulfill needs for the current term.    I hope you can understand that now!
		
Click to expand...

I am quite clear about what you explained to me.  You talk about 'needs' - I asked about 'numbers'.  You have then caveated 'need' with 'what the infrastructure can support'.  You cannot have both.  

And notwithstanding any of that, I suspect that if you said to many 'Leavers' that our *need* on a year-to-year basis was probably going to be in the range 200,000 (current plus a little more non-EU immigration and zero EU) to 250,000 (allowing say 50,000 EU for key required skills) their response to you would be 'Not on your nelly - way too many'.

For many Leavers the only thing that matters is numbers.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am quite clear about what you explained to me.  You talk about 'needs' - I asked about 'numbers'.  You have then caveated 'need' with 'what the infrastructure can support'.  You cannot have both.  

And notwithstanding any of that, I suspect that if you said to many 'Leavers' that our *need* on a year-to-year basis was probably going to be in the range 200,000 (current plus a little more non-EU immigration and zero EU) to 250,000 (allowing say 50,000 EU for key required skills) their response to you would be 'Not on your nelly - way too many'.

For many Leavers the only thing that matters is numbers.
		
Click to expand...

According to the remain if we leave the figure will be 0 as they are so certain that the jobs will disappear so we best go with that then. Or you could do a mystic meg and guess.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2016)

And we're back.....


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am quite clear about what you explained to me.  You talk about 'needs' - I asked about 'numbers'.  You have then caveated 'need' with 'what the infrastructure can support'.  You cannot have both.  

And notwithstanding any of that, I suspect that if you said to many 'Leavers' that our *need* on a year-to-year basis was probably going to be in the range 200,000 (current plus a little more non-EU immigration and zero EU) to 250,000 (allowing say 50,000 EU for key required skills) their response to you would be 'Not on your nelly - way too many'.

For many Leavers the only thing that matters is numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Either you don't get it or as I suspect you don't want to.   IMO we don't need the numbers we currently attract, we seemed to manage for a very long time on around 50,000 PA before Blair and Brown went on an immigration fest.  It probably makes sense not to count students in the numbers though as long as they don't slip through the net and stay illegally afterwards.   I dont fall for this story of needing mass immigration to pay for old folks retirements or that they all go home when they are older.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont fall for this story of needing mass immigration to pay for old folks retirements or that they all go home when they are older.
		
Click to expand...

Silly argument from remain. What happens when the 300,000 a year or so currently arriving ages. They will need care, so what do we do, let 500,000 in a year to pay for them? With that scenario you would need an exponential year on year growth in immigration to keep funding old age. Clearly ridiculous, it needs sorting now with a reduction in numbers coming in and proper provision for care of the elderly. (Paid for with all that money we are going to save:clap


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Silly argument from remain. What happens when the 300,000 a year or so currently arriving ages. They will need care, so what do we do, let 500,000 in a year to pay for them? With that scenario you would need an exponential year on year growth in immigration to keep funding old age. Clearly ridiculous, it needs sorting now with a reduction in numbers coming in and proper provision for care of the elderly. (Paid for with all that money we are going to save:clap

Click to expand...

The other thing being conveniently ignored is the stress on the environment.  This fast growing population eats up more resources like gas and electricity which we are struggling to provide already, they need feeding from a country that cant grow enough food so has to transport more and more from around the world, we have to import more and more products from countries like China and India who are major polluters of the planet.  It's the economics of the mad house.  If we attempted to lower the population which would lower demand then we wouldn't need the levels of growth to sustain us.  We could save very large amounts of money by reducing waste in Government procurement, excessive spending on public services that are unnecessary and make people lazy and feckless.   Population growth is not good for anything and especially the planet.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The other thing being conveniently ignored is the stress on the environment.  This fast growing population eats up more resources like gas and electricity which we are struggling to provide already, they need feeding from a country that cant grow enough food so has to transport more and more from around the world, we have to import more and more products from countries like China and India who are major polluters of the planet.  It's the economics of the mad house.  If we attempted to lower the population which would lower demand then we wouldn't need the levels of growth to sustain us.  We could save very large amounts of money by reducing waste in Government procurement, excessive spending on public services that are unnecessary and make people lazy and feckless.   Population growth is not good for anything and especially the planet.
		
Click to expand...

And how would we lower the population?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And how would we lower the population?
		
Click to expand...

We cant now the major damage has been done.  I should have said 'stabilise the population' We could possibly lower the population by keeping births below deaths which would probably happen if we reduced immigration to a minimum, I know that wont happen though as the political elite know it's not in the self interest of the socialist and big business mass immigration pundits who want the same result but for different self interests.    Believing otherwise is IMO is taking in the lie; hook-line-and sinker.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We cant now the major damage has been done.  I should have said 'stabilise the population' We could possibly lower the population by keeping births below deaths which would probably happen if we reduced immigration to a minimum, I know that wont happen though as the political elite know it's not in the self interest of the socialist and big business mass immigration pundits who want the same result but for different self interests.    Believing otherwise is IMO is taking in the lie; hook-line-and sinker.
		
Click to expand...

How would you manage economic growth without population increase. I agree that we need to stabilise/reduce the population, but how do you avoid the worst recession in living memory? 

As cynical as it sounds, and I'm certainly not advocating this as a policy, but if you want to keep a relatively healthy economy and also reduce the population, then there's only one end of the scale you can reduce.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How would you manage economic growth without population increase. I agree that we need to stabilise/reduce the population, but how do you avoid the worst recession in living memory? 

As cynical as it sounds, and I'm certainly not advocating this as a policy, but if you want to keep a relatively healthy economy and also reduce the population, then there's only one end of the scale you can reduce.
		
Click to expand...

Thats not any kind of option, killing off millions of people has been tried before and too inhumane to contemplate.

I think we are too concerned with growth and could exist well enough without being so fixated on it. If we reduce demand then it's not so much of a problem, we wont need to import such large quantities of products that we are capable of making ourselves.   It's a bit like a family of ten on a low income having a pay rise of 1% for a few years will be worse off than a family of four with no increase over the period.   We can reduce the population by greatly reducing immigration, not encouraging families to have more children than they can support creating more organic growth.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not any kind of option, killing off millions of people has been tried before and too inhumane to contemplate.

I think we are too concerned with growth and could exist well enough without being so fixated on it. If we reduce demand then it's not so much of a problem, we wont need to import such large quantities of products that we are capable of making ourselves.   It's a bit like a family of ten on a low income having a pay rise of 1% for a few years will be worse off than a family of four with no increase over the period.   We can reduce the population by greatly reducing immigration, not encouraging families to have more children than they can support creating more organic growth.
		
Click to expand...

As I said, it's not something that any sane person would advocate. However, if here is no growth in the economy then you are effectively in a recession. How would you stop the economy going into free fall without growth?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

Click to expand...

That editorial is below contempt and desperate.   I am surprised at you posting it to be honest.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			As I said, it's not something that any sane person would advocate. However, if here is no growth in the economy then you are effectively in a recession. How would you stop the economy going into free fall without growth?
		
Click to expand...

You are only in a 'Free Fall' if your economy cannot support the demands made on it.  I think I have explained that you would need to reduce demand.  If a family had three more children, moved to a bigger house with a larger mortgage and took out a loan to buy a new car without earning more money they would be financially worse off and probably less content with life than if they stayed as they were


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are only in a 'Free Fall' if your economy cannot support the demands made on it.  I think I have explained that you would need to reduce demand.  If a family had three more children, moved to a bigger house with a larger mortgage and took out a loan to buy a new car without earning more money they would be financially worse off and probably less content with life than if they stayed as they were
		
Click to expand...

We appear to be at cross purposes. I'm genuinely interested in how we could maintain growth in the economy with less people earning/spending money. As you are aware, we currently operate a financial system that relies on debt and interest. If less people are buying into this system then it's impossible to maintain any sort of growth. You can't even maintain the status quo. Large scale immigration may be a short term solution, but it does provide temporary growth. We have maneuvered ourselves into a position where all we can do is put band aids on bullet holes. 

And no, I don't have a solution to it. I have genuine concerns about where we will be in 20 years, without a major change in the way we live.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That editorial is below contempt and desperate.   I am surprised at you posting it to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it wrong to post up an editorial? Quite frankly I want to see comment on all the antagonists. If it isn't reported how do we know not only all sides of the argument but also the quality of the reporting?

Personally, I'd ask the question why are you looking to censor someone's opinion? Criticise it, yes. But to question it being posted up, no.


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 18, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0

[video=youtube;jGC5S3ag1q0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0[/video]


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Either you don't get it or as I suspect you don't want to.  * IMO we don't need the numbers we currently attract, we seemed to manage for a very long time on around 50,000 PA before Blair and Brown went on an immigration fest.  *It probably makes sense not to count students in the numbers though as long as they don't slip through the net and stay illegally afterwards.   I dont fall for this story of needing mass immigration to pay for old folks retirements or that they all go home when they are older.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think I don't 'get it'? You and I absolutely get it,  but many don't.  

So for instance does your figure of 50,000 PA include non-EU immigration?

If it does then the _Leave _campaign needs to fess up to the existing non-EU immigrant community that leaving is not going to result in the increase in non-EU immigration that many expect - and indeed that non-EU immigration will be cut significantly.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That editorial is below contempt and desperate.   I am surprised at you posting it to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Really? You're surprised a yoghurt knitting yurt dwelling liberal lefty like myself would post an editorial from The Guardian? I'd of thought it is the most depressingly predictable thing I could do. 

As for the rest, what Hobbit said, he was spot on.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2016)

With an economy only based on 'intangibles' I feel a recession is only ever one small hiccup away...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

Warning, warning, more contemptible left wing 'stay in' propaganda. Please do not enlarge the image if you are easily offended. 

Ahaaaa


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

Mmm, I wonder what The Express editorial will say about how to vote on Thursday....


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Mmm, I wonder what The Express editorial will say about how to vote on Thursday....

View attachment 19788

Click to expand...

STAY


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Why is it wrong to post up an editorial? Quite frankly I want to see comment on all the antagonists. If it isn't reported how do we know not only all sides of the argument but also the quality of the reporting?

Personally, I'd ask the question why are you looking to censor someone's opinion? Criticise it, yes. But to question it being posted up, no.
		
Click to expand...

It may have been OK for me if he used the editorial link to support some kind of view or belief he had stated but he just simply posted the link with no comment.  I found the Editorial in poor taste as it referred to the death of Joe Cox a number of times and seemed to link it with Nigel Farage who the writer seemed to be almost paranoid about in her vitriolic outpouring of insults.    As HK had made no comment I can only think he supported the article which for me was in very bad taste.

Thats the reason for my post which you are of course at will to disagree with but at least I have explained my view.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really? You're surprised a yoghurt knitting yurt dwelling liberal lefty like myself would post an editorial from The Guardian? I'd of thought it is the most depressingly predictable thing I could do. 

As for the rest, what Hobbit said, he was spot on.
		
Click to expand...

I have explained why I found it contemptible and in poor taste.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Warning, warning, more contemptible left wing 'stay in' propaganda. Please do not enlarge the image if you are easily offended. 

Ahaaaa 

View attachment 19787

Click to expand...

Grow up!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It may have been OK for me if he used the editorial link to support some kind of view or belief he had stated but he just simply posted the link with no comment.  I found the Editorial in poor taste as it referred to the death of Joe Cox a number of times and seemed to link it with Nigel Farage who the writer seemed to be almost paranoid about in her vitriolic outpouring of insults.    As HK had made no comment I can only think he supported the article which for me was in very bad taste.

Thats the reason for my post which you are of course at will to disagree with but at least I have explained my view.
		
Click to expand...

Eventually.

You are just as guilty as HK in posting something which, in your own explanation above, you failed to qualify in your original response. You can't have it both ways...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Grow up!
		
Click to expand...

I did give you fair warning. Monkey tennis?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It may have been OK for me if he used the editorial link to support some kind of view or belief he had stated but he just simply posted the link with no comment.  I found the Editorial in poor taste as it referred to the death of Joe Cox a number of times and seemed to link it with Nigel Farage who the writer seemed to be almost paranoid about in her vitriolic outpouring of insults.    As HK had made no comment I can only think he supported the article which for me was in very bad taste.

Thats the reason for my post which you are of course at will to disagree with but at least I have explained my view.
		
Click to expand...

Still not sure why I was not supposed to post it?  Unless we have reached the stage where a Guardian editorial is viewed as offensive and likely to corrupt and we should not link to such a paper???  

If so, then whatever upsets people is all relative. I could have reworded it and passed it off as my own original thoughts like most people do on forums.  But I thought I'd let the journalist speak for themselves, and I am sure most people could have worked out I agreed with it as I linked to it. That's usually how linking to articles work.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2016)

To even matters up, as I posted an editorial from a lefty rag here's one from a righty rag, The Times, who are backing the remain option.  My name's Hacker Khan and I endorse this ad.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Eventually.

You are just as guilty as HK in posting something which, in your own explanation above, you failed to qualify in your original response. You can't have it both ways...
		
Click to expand...

Fair Comment.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Why is it wrong to post up an editorial? Quite frankly I want to see comment on all the antagonists. If it isn't reported how do we know not only all sides of the argument but also the quality of the reporting?

Personally, I'd ask the question why are you looking to censor someone's opinion? Criticise it, yes. But to question it being posted up, no.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree!

There is nothing in that editorial that is inappropriate, for an editorial, imo!

Btw. Farage's experience of Mandela's release were identical to mine, though I can't say the same about his comment on smoking (it was a pretty good reply though )!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

I wonder how many voters have changed their mind in the last few months? I've gone from Out to on the fence with me edging towards in.

Immigration isn't a major factor for me apart from having the infrastructure to support it. The Beeb did a great piece several weeks ago about how being out, but part of the trading bloc would mean nothing would change at all in terms of immigration.

I have two big gripes with the EU. France and its skewed contributions, and skewed access to goods from outside the EU. Some are ridiculously cheap, for example steel, which has severely damaged the UK. Whilst others have ridiculously high tariffs that hurt consumers.

I feel that the laws, in or out, will be pretty much the same. If they're not, we won't be allowed to trade - the same already applies to exports to the US.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Immigration isn't a major factor for me apart from having the infrastructure to support it.
		
Click to expand...

There's the rub. Immigration dos'nt affect large swathes of the country so people in that situation are ambivalent towards it. Whereas it's a major issue and it's having a major detrimental effect on life where immigration is centered.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			There's the rub. Immigration dos'nt affect large swathes of the country so people in that situation are ambivalent towards it. Whereas it's a major issue and it's having a major detrimental effect on life where immigration is centered.
		
Click to expand...

Too true, I get fed up with the Britains Full, concrete jungle brigade.
Distribution to the UK's population, wealth and access is the problem.
Successive governments have done diddly squat about it.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			There's the rub. Immigration dos'nt affect large swathes of the country so people in that situation are ambivalent towards it. Whereas it's a major issue and it's having a major detrimental effect on life where immigration is centered.
		
Click to expand...

You missed this rather important bit out of your quote!


Hobbit said:



			The Beeb did a great piece several weeks ago about how being out, but part of the trading bloc would mean nothing would change at all in terms of immigration.
		
Click to expand...

So your actual point bears little or no relationship to the quote!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			There's the rub. Immigration dos'nt affect large swathes of the country so people in that situation are ambivalent towards it. Whereas it's a major issue and it's having a major detrimental effect on life where immigration is centered.
		
Click to expand...

Very true. I have a work colleague who lives in Peterborough who says his son can't get a step on the job ladder because he's English. And my brother-in-law has a building firm, and has stopped quoting for jobs in London because he says the Poles have got it sewn up. And it's not pricing that's the issue.

Anecdotal, maybe.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Begs the question........What is the issue?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Begs the question........What is the issue?
		
Click to expand...


'Resources' can and often are stretched to past breaking point...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Ehhh?
I have been away for a couple of days........why is everyone now talking in riddles.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Begs the question........What is the issue?
		
Click to expand...

Different things for different people. I think France absolutely take pee. Far higher GDP but a huge rebate taking their net contributions way less than ours. 

Tariffs and subsidies need addressing. Allowing basket case economies in.

If the contribution calculations were fairer and transparent it would help. And, as not one of the 10 countries that joined in 2004 is yet to make a contribution, although they've had plenty, why add more countries to the EU.

I want in but on a fairer playing field.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Different things for different people. I think France absolutely take pee. Far higher GDP but a huge rebate taking their net contributions way less than ours. 

Tariffs and subsidies need addressing. Allowing basket case economies in.

If the contribution calculations were fairer and transparent it would help. And, as not one of the 10 countries that joined in 2004 is yet to make a contribution, although they've had plenty, why add more countries to the EU.

I want in but on a fairer playing field.
		
Click to expand...

Ehh Ehh.. what has any of the above got to do with pricing building jobs in London..
Have I entered another universe?l


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ehh Ehh.. what has any of the above got to do with pricing building jobs in London..
Have I entered another universe?l
		
Click to expand...

Do try and keep up Doon. You missed your meds this morning or has your Alzheimer's kicked in?


----------



## MarkE (Jun 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You missed this rather important bit out of your quote!


So your actual point bears little or no relationship to the quote!
		
Click to expand...

Just commenting on the fact that people who don't have to deal with the effects of a local influx of immigrants, because the immigrants tend to be settled in certain areas, mainly away from the more affluent areas of the country (I wonder why?) have a rather blase' outlook on the situation.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Do try and keep up Doon. You missed your meds this morning or has your Alzheimer's kicked in?
		
Click to expand...

That would not be you being 'evasive' perchance.:lol:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just commenting on the fact that people who don't have to deal with the effects of a local influx of immigrants, because the immigrants tend to be settled in certain areas, mainly away from the more affluent areas of the country (I wonder why?) have a rather blase' outlook on the situation.
		
Click to expand...

Then simply do that! No need to misquote/quote out of contex!

I made/make no comment of the validity of your point!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ehhh?
I have been away for a couple of days........why is everyone now talking in riddles.
		
Click to expand...

Does this equate to a collective 'Oh God! He's back!' groan?


----------



## User62651 (Jun 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Does this equate to a collective 'Oh God! He's back!' groan? 

Click to expand...

To be fair to Doon Hobbit hasn't answered why his brother in laws building firm has stopped quoting for work in London when price is not the issue - there is another issue apparently which Hobbit has not been stated, from that one can only assume he doesn't want to state it as its contentious. It insinuates that the people awarding the work contracts are somehow biased towards giving Poles the work - if not because of cost, it must be they do a better quality job or are dodging VAT to reduce cost or even engaged in mafia style blackmail of prospective customers - I would also like to know what the reason is?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That would not be you being 'evasive' perchance.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Not at all. Maybe you are being obtuse, but I can't see where you're coming from. Maybe you're reading too much in what I posted.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			To be fair to Doon Hobbit hasn't answered why his brother in laws building firm has stopped quoting for work in London when price is not the issue - there is another issue apparently which Hobbit has not been stated, from that one can only assume he doesn't want to state it as its contentious. It insinuates that the people awarding the work contracts are somehow biased towards giving Poles the work - if not because of cost, it must be they do a better quality job or are dodging VAT to reduce cost or even engaged in mafia style blackmail of prospective customers - I would also like to know what the reason is?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have finished the sentence with an ellipsis. The inference was if you weren't in the club, you didn't get the work.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			To be fair to Doon Hobbit hasn't answered why his brother in laws building firm has stopped quoting for work in London when price is not the issue - there is another issue apparently which Hobbit has not been stated, from that one can only assume he doesn't want to state it as its contentious. It insinuates that the people awarding the work contracts are somehow biased towards giving Poles the work - if not because of cost, it must be they do a better quality job or are dodging VAT to reduce cost or even engaged in mafia style blackmail of prospective customers - I would also like to know what the reason is?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Maxfli........not just me then.

Doors open for your reply Hobbit. [With a little less of the rudeness please.]


----------



## MarkE (Jun 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Then simply do that! No need to misquote/quote out of contex!

I made/make no comment of the validity of your point!
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit posted  'Immigration isn't a major factor for me apart from having the infrastructure to support it.'  I made it quite clear that I was only commenting on this point, nothing about the BBC and trading bloc. I did'nt quote/misquote anything. I can't see the problem with that. If you do, feel free to ignore my posts in future. Now calm yourself down man.:thup:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Hobbit posted  'Immigration isn't a major factor for me apart from having the infrastructure to support it.'  I made it quite clear that I was only commenting on this point, nothing about the BBC and trading bloc. I did'nt quote/misquote anything. I can't see the problem with that. If you do, feel free to ignore my posts in future.* Now calm yourself down man.*:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Quoting out of context is just as bad a 'crime' as misquoting!

Otherwise there was no reason to get upset when I completed the paragraph!

Take your own advice?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe I should have finished the sentence with an ellipsis. The inference was if you weren't in the club, you didn't get the work.
		
Click to expand...

Really, that sounds like a pretty poor excuse for not being competitive.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Quoting out of context is just as bad a 'crime' as misquoting!

Otherwise there was no reason to get upset when I completed the paragraph!

Take your own advice? 

Click to expand...

 I was'nt quoting out of context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I was replying to Hobbit about a specific point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No need for you to stick your oar in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was'nt quoting out of context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I was replying to Hobbit about a specific point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No need for you to stick your oar in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...




MarkE said:



			...Now calm yourself down man.:thup:
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, that sounds like a pretty poor excuse for not being competitive.
		
Click to expand...

Well, that's your interpretation. Typically, Poles are subcontracting to Poles. They are also pricing jobs at less than the minimum wage or at a price that our skilled people won't work for, and that's been alluded to by many commentators, i.e. driving wages down. Think Jeremy Corbyn has said staying in will drive wages up - some chance.

Apologies if you saw my original reply as rude - it was missing the smiley that would have shown I was joking. Bit touchy?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2016)




----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Well, that's your interpretation. Typically, Poles are subcontracting to Poles. They are also pricing jobs at less than the minimum wage or at a price that our skilled people won't work for, and that's been alluded to by many commentators, i.e. driving wages down. Think Jeremy Corbyn has said staying in will drive wages up - some chance.

Apologies if you saw my original reply as rude - it was missing the smiley that would have shown I was joking. Bit touchy?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply and apology.
I am not touchy at all, in fact 25 years of working for Local Authorities had made me pretty thick skinned.
I do recognise rudeness when I see it though.
.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for your reply and apology.
I am not touchy at all, in fact 25 years of working for Local Authorities had made me pretty thick skinned.
I do recognise rudeness when I see it though.
.
		
Click to expand...

Well it wasn't meant to be rude. If you want to take it differently, that's your choice. That said, I genuinely thought you were being deliberately obtuse.

Maybe we were both at fault.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 19795

Click to expand...

You're not kidding! Some people, tsch...


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 19, 2016)

Ok, genuine question. As per my previous posts, is anyone able to tell me how we maintain growth in an economy with a shrinking population? I am genuinely interested in hearing people's thoughts on the matter.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2016)

I sent my postal vote to Leave last week and I am certain it was the correct decision for me.  I am now a little tired with the debate and after the things that have shocked us this week I will wait to see the result and not comment further until we hear the result.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

The exclamation marks were for your benefit, as you seem unable to string a sentence together without using one.:thup:


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I sent my postal vote to Leave last week and I am certain it was the correct decision for me.  I am now a little tired with the debate and after the things that have shocked us this week I will wait to see the result and not comment further until we hear the result.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear you won't comment further. Especially as we haven't really finished the discussion regarding economic growth and population shrinkage. I was hoping for your thoughts on the matter.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Well, that's your interpretation. Typically, Poles are subcontracting to Poles. They are also pricing jobs at less than the minimum wage or at a price that our skilled people won't work for, and that's been alluded to by many commentators, i.e. driving wages down. Think Jeremy Corbyn has said staying in will drive wages up - some chance.
		
Click to expand...

My East European builder will not take on 'sub' work unless they are paying full rate...

"Pointless coming here and not being able afford to live here"...

And, from personal experience and gossip the East Europeans are every bit as bad as 'locals' when it comes to dicking you around once on site...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2016)

Sir Winston Churchill


We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.


Good choice of words, I am now going to have a Scottish whiskey and watch the footie and hope Switzerland do their stuff.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry to hear you won't comment further. Especially as we haven't really finished the discussion regarding economic growth and population shrinkage. I was hoping for your thoughts on the matter.
		
Click to expand...

If you want to open a discussion on that alone then I would be happy to continue discussing away from the Referendum issue.  I would also discuss by PM if you want.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Sir Winston Churchill


We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.


Good choice of words, I am now going to have a Scottish whiskey and watch the footie and hope Switzerland do their stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Did you miss that great win for Europe's Andy Murray at Queens.:lol:


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2016)

Is the desire for constant economic growth healthy? That constant striving at all costs causes an awful lot of problems.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 19, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is the desire for constant economic growth healthy? That constant striving at all costs causes an awful lot of problems.
		
Click to expand...

Well, with our current economic model, if we don't grow, we fail. Obviously, you can't have eternal growth with finite resource, but as of yet, no one has worked out how to grow an economy with any of the major inputs shrinking.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is the desire for constant economic growth healthy? That constant striving at all costs causes an awful lot of problems.
		
Click to expand...

Sustainable economic growth maybe?  If the economy isn't growing then living standards will decline.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you miss that great win for Europe's Andy Murray at Queens.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Good win once he got going but I seemed to remember him being claimed for Scotland


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2016)

With our economic growth seemingly based on London property prices I reckon we are in for a fall anytime soon...

We need to get back to making 'stuff' for any 'real' future...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			With our economic growth seemingly based on London property prices I reckon we are in for a fall anytime soon...

We need to get back to making 'stuff' for any 'real' future...
		
Click to expand...

In the globalised economy I doubt we'll ever be able to compete making 'commodities' - our labour cost is just too high.  We have to continue manufacturing high quality advanced stuff requiring a highly skilled workforce - as we currently do.  Leavers seem to hearken back to 'halcyon' days when we had an Empire and a still largely 'dependent' Commonwealth of the 50s and 60s -  and so had a ready market for our goods that we controlled 100% along with a largely closed UK market.  Both of which no longer exist and never will return.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2016)

And so I hear Gove and Bojo now both proclaiming that they are pro immigration.  Too late lads - you've opened Pandora's box.  I suspect that many _Leavers _will be listening and thinking to themselves 'they don't mean what they say - they are only saying it because of the murder of the MP'

And so it will come to pass that in the event of a Brexit and nothing changes over immigration - as nothing will - I fear that we will have major social cohesion issues with the existing migrate population being blamed and pick upon.  After all over the last weeks Leavers have been fed a diet of immigration being the cause of many of the issues and pressures that we face in the country today.  And that - like much of what Leave say - is just not true.

I have to admit to being rather fearful of the consequences of a Brexit as my feeling is that they know not what they do.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 20, 2016)

Nothing new to add to the debate today but thought I should take up 3000th post on this thread.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2016)

The Wee Ginger Dug is spot on with his referendum assessment. 


https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/...rd-missing-between-mother-and-of-parliaments/


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the globalised economy I doubt we'll ever be able to compete making 'commodities' - our labour cost is just too high.  We have to continue manufacturing high quality advanced stuff requiring a highly skilled workforce - as we currently do.  Leavers seem to hearken back to 'halcyon' days when we had an Empire and a still largely 'dependent' Commonwealth of the 50s and 60s -  and so had a ready market for our goods that we controlled 100% along with a largely closed UK market.  Both of which no longer exist and never will return.
		
Click to expand...

Then we are bugger'd...

Because we wish to be world class tree huggers energy costs don't help and nor does sky high rents due to property values figuring high in the economy... Certainly costs that impact heavily on the small business I work for...

We need to at least get back to making 'stuff' for our own infrastructure... Train bogie's being a recent[ish] contentious point... And, as for all those windfarms that now surround us [as well as being blots on the landscape]... Where are they made? I know the blades aren't made here anymore as a mate worked for Veritas, on the IoW, making them before the place was shut down and moved overseas..

Anyway, all a bit academic, as I've being saying recently even a vote for exit I don't believe we are going anywhere...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so I hear Gove and Bojo now both proclaiming that they are pro immigration.  Too late lads - you've opened Pandora's box.  I suspect that many _Leavers _will be listening and thinking to themselves 'they don't mean what they say - they are only saying it because of the murder of the MP'



I have to admit to being rather fearful of the consequences of a Brexit as my feeling is that they know not what they do.
		
Click to expand...

1.  Ben Bradshaw making more of the murder of an MP than any of the leavers are.

2. Can you explain what the future holds if we remain in the EU.

3. Are you able to explain what has changed since last year when the Government said that we would leave the EU if we did not get sanctions (yet to be ratified) that were put forward.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 20, 2016)

My feelings as a neutral on this is that Leave's momentum has stalled, they were roaring along last week but Cameron did quite well (for a change) on QT last night and althought it's a very sensitive subject the death of the MP will rally support from neutrals to Remain I believe, hard to believe but the actions of that Mair loony may swing a national vote. Also time and again in referendums when polls say it's close the status quo prevails as ultimately people fear large scale change/uncertainty. 
Personally still undecided, a weaker pound actually helps my industry and we have no immigration pressure at all up here so Brexit may not harm me but looking to the bigger picture for everyone I'm beginning to lean a little to the Remain camp, over half the immigrants are non EU so even with Brexit how is it going to help with that, and for those saying our borders aren't secure, the reason the Calais jungle exists is because our borders are fairly secure, to me too many people are being legally accepted into the UK from outwith the EU, not illegally.
If Cameron is correct in saying several other Euro economies are picking up then perhaps the EU migrants will be less inclined to come here and be more evenly spread across the continent moving forward - or is that just more Cameron BS? I don't know, feel abstention may be my only recourse.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Neither the pound or the stock market are at the level of March this year. Mine and many of my muckers tend to feel that the markets play the game for the own return with no thought of what may or may not happen to the every day Jo on the street.

They can bankrupt a country but still come back as millionaires'.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 20, 2016)

Cameron, on the bit I saw, was shown to be the liar we know he is. He did not answer one question that was put to him....and wasn't chased on this. We've got assurances from EU leaders that they will vote for the sanctions, oh yeah? I shouted the Chamberlain quote at the TV and luckilly someone on the TV heard me and used the same quote at him. So they can change their minds, as they will if we vote to stay. I also noted he acknowledged, well sort of, that we are a net contributor to the EU finances and are helping the rubbish countries who obviously want to join as they get all the money, whilst we lose out. Just why should we be helping the poorer countries? We were poor and rubbish once, but we pulled our socks up and built a, once great, country whilst they just sat around lazing in the sun. Why didn't they do the same hundreds of years ago? Because they are actually lazy people and want things for nothing....and now are getting it!!!!!! Crazy!!!!Oh and Cameron says that under his new agreement, and EU migrant that does not find work in 6 months can be send back. LOL. We've never been able to send anyone back.  Oh, and why can't we implement his "New deal" when he negotiated it. 
We'd have more faith in what he says if he could demonstrate that these thing were happening now. Oh, oh and Labour backing Cameron, just what is that about and Corbin changing his veiws. 
Despite what you might think, I've been waiting for the stay campaign to show me why, they can't and haven't. This is why we MUST VOTE OUT !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## drdel (Jun 20, 2016)

BThose in the political bubble of Westminster have shown themselves to be incapable of rising above the back stabbing  'debating' theatre and treating the country's needs above their own selfish ambitions.

Before this charade I was a Cameron supporter but I'm afraid he has failed to act as I think a PM should. The fact that he has now chosen to capitalise of the death of a fellow MP in the way he has I find despicable. Osborne has demonstrated an ability to be vindictive and incapable of arithmetic - a skill lacking in the Brexit camp. Mr Corbyn seems determined to say nothing.

Its also interesting to see that Baroness Warsi has just decided to change sides - after all this time and opportunity to come to a rational decision she has decided that despite the long term impact on the UK's future the contents of one poster is more important.

For my own part I still find the debate worryingly immature, as an economist I can see that the EU is going to need/consume huge amounts of cash (which the ECB is busy printing and raise debt) of which only a few member states will pay. None of the new eastern countries and the southern states have any. So if the UK stays in the current contribution is going to rise very significantly and our rebate is likely to progressively vanish.

If the UK leaves there will be uncertainty and the markets will take the chance to speculate at the Â£s expense and profit take. The IMF will play games just because they can.

It is obvious that in some parts of the UK immigration is causing major issues because integration has not happened and so some urban areas have become 'nationalistic' enclaves with high crime rates and further segregation. Even some police chiefs admit to no-go areas but that while that should not tar all immigrants it is an influencing factor.

I suspect that irrespective of the vote not a lot will change there is too much momentum in the Establishment and the corporate sector that work-arounds will be sorted. 

Either way it will be the less well off that will feel the sharp end because the lower social sectors cannot plan against pension, tax or health care changes that either an increasing (Remain) EU debt or a (Brexit) temporary growth hiccup will cause.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

A good post.

On the Baroness, as some one who has (in my short memory) never declared which way she would vote I think the change of mind guff is just that.  Who knows what anyone will vote, we can all say one thing and vote another.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			A good post.

On the Baroness, as some one who has (in my short memory) never declared which way she would vote I think the change of mind guff is just that.  Who knows what anyone will vote, we can all say one thing and vote another.
		
Click to expand...

On the Baroness - surprise, surprise - Farage telling us it's all been engineered by a desperate Cameron - and so we can all just ignore what she says

Same old same old from Leave - who (paraphrasing Ian Birrell _i_ today) have_ ramped up the rhetoric against migrants, scapegoated refugees, traduced politicians, trashed expertise, tarnished a religion - to what end?  So that at a time when unemployment is at it's lowest for more than a decade, we flirt with wrecking our economy simply to stop foreigners coming here to work_

And that is so depressing and so sad.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the Baroness - surprise, surprise - Farage telling us it's all been engineered by a desperate Cameron - and so we can all just ignore what she says

Same old same old from Leave - who (paraphrasing Ian Birrell _i_ today) have_ ramped up the rhetoric against migrants, scapegoated refugees, traduced politicians, trashed expertise, tarnished a religion - to what end?  So that at a time when unemployment is at it's lowest for more than a decade, we flirt with wrecking our economy simply to stop foreigners coming here to work_

And that is so depressing and so sad.
		
Click to expand...

Any chance of a answer to my questions or as normal are you ignoring anything that is put to you.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Neither the pound or the stock market are at the level of March this year. Mine and many of my muckers tend to feel that the markets play the game for the own return with no thought of what may or may not happen to the every day Jo on the street.

They can bankrupt a country but still come back as millionaires'.
		
Click to expand...

That's absolutely correct! And if they fail to do so when they have the opportunity, then they are not doing their jobs properly - so should lose them! That's the nature of 'markets' - at least at the 'bleeding edge'!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Worth a listening - nothing changes http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cd_1466355619


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			1.  Ben Bradshaw making more of the murder of an MP than any of the leavers are.

2. Can you explain what the future holds if we remain in the EU.

3. Are you able to explain what has changed since last year when the Government said that we would leave the EU if we did not get sanctions (yet to be ratified) that were put forward.
		
Click to expand...

1.  It is _Leave_ who have opened the Pandora's box of immigration - I'm not interested in their sanctimonious whinging
2.    I don't have to explain.  I trust the judgment of 10 Nobel Prize winning economists today stating the case for _Remain _and warning of the damage Brexit will cause to the UK economy in the short and long term  With their views simply adding further credence to the views of the vast majority of economists, economic institutions, and business organisations stating the case.
3.  That's politics - and that was then, this is now.   Besides I didn't vote for them - I don't have to explain or justify anything that the Tories might have said a year ago.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			1.  It is _Leave_ who have opened the Pandora's box of immigration.
2.  I trust the judgment of 10 Nobel Prize winning economists today stating the case for _Remain _and warning of the damage Brexit will cause to the UK economy in the short and long term  With their views simply adding further credence to the views of the vast majority of economists, economic institutions, and business organisations. 
3.  That's politics - and that was then, this is now.   Besides I didn't vote for them - I don't have to justify anything that the Tories might have said a year ago.
		
Click to expand...

So no answers then

Bradshaw was spewing his blame on the leave campaign hours after the ladies death.

i have not asked about the economics more your input on what the future holds if we stay in, but like us all you don't know so refuse to answere.

So when we have to go through this again in a year or twos time if remain win and you vote out your response will be that was then, this is now. You didn't have to vote for them, whoever them was but as the now leader of Labour was also on the out bandwagon I can only presume you didn't vote or voted green/UKIP.


----------



## woody69 (Jun 20, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Cameron, on the bit I saw, was shown to be the liar we know he is. He did not answer one question that was put to him....and wasn't chased on this. We've got assurances from EU leaders that they will vote for the sanctions, oh yeah? I shouted the Chamberlain quote at the TV and luckilly someone on the TV heard me and used the same quote at him. So they can change their minds, as they will if we vote to stay. I also noted he acknowledged, well sort of, that we are a net contributor to the EU finances and are helping the rubbish countries who obviously want to join as they get all the money, whilst we lose out. Just why should we be helping the poorer countries? We were poor and rubbish once, but we pulled our socks up and built a, once great, country whilst they just sat around lazing in the sun. Why didn't they do the same hundreds of years ago? Because they are actually lazy people and want things for nothing....and now are getting it!!!!!! Crazy!!!!Oh and Cameron says that under his new agreement, and EU migrant that does not find work in 6 months can be send back. LOL. We've never been able to send anyone back.  Oh, and why can't we implement his "New deal" when he negotiated it. 
We'd have more faith in what he says if he could demonstrate that these thing were happening now. Oh, oh and Labour backing Cameron, just what is that about and Corbin changing his veiws. 
Despite what you might think, I've been waiting for the stay campaign to show me why, they can't and haven't. This is why we MUST VOTE OUT !!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be getting confused. You are not voting for a person, you are voting for Britain. 

You are also confused as we can send a jobless migrant home after 6 months.

You also paint a rather odd view on "helping the poorer countries" - "pulled our socks up and built a once great country whilst they just say around lazing in the sun"? You're on a wind up aren't you?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So no answers then

Bradshaw was spewing his blame on the leave campaign hours after the ladies death.

i have not asked about the economics more your input on what the future holds if we stay in, but like us all you don't know so refuse to answere.

So when we have to go through this again in a year or twos time if remain win and you vote out your response will be that was then, this is now. You didn't have to vote for them, whoever them was but as the now leader of Labour was also on the out bandwagon I can only presume you didn't vote or voted green/UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

I think I have answered your questions fully.  _Leave _opened the Pandora's box on immigration, making it open season on immigration and migrants; failing to rebutt the most ludicrous statements made by supporters of Leave for fear of losing their vote - and hence allowing a horrible and disturbing 'them and us' environment to develop. 

What don't you get about me saying that I trust in the economists - hells teeth - I am not an expert - why should I even pretend to have any idea?  I trust in those who do - and in whose expertise we, governments and bodies who need a view of the future always look to - except if you support _Leave _when all such expert opinion is rubbished as ill-informed, self-serving or a conspiracy.  This woul dbe quite pathetic if it wasn't so sad and dispiriting.

What Cameron said a year ago doesn't concern me - I am listening to the experts, Cameron isn't one.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2016)

Simple question; anyone know if the result of this referendum is legally binding?


----------



## ger147 (Jun 20, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Simple question; anyone know if the result of this referendum is legally binding?
		
Click to expand...

No it's not.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2016)

ger147 said:



			No it's not.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.  So "Call me Dave" has given us a vote on something that he is opposed to, and is under no obligation to invoke the wishes of the masses should the decision be Leave?  That's pretty much a foregone conclusion thenâ€¦â€¦.. 

Has there ever been a bigger waste of time in British politics?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

ger147 said:



			No it's not.
		
Click to expand...

Be a brave person who does an Irish on it whatever the out come.

There is the possibility of further referendums if we stay in and the EU try further constitutional changes.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Be a brave person who does an Irish on it whatever the out come.

There is the possibility of further referendums if we stay in and the EU try further constitutional changes.
		
Click to expand...

Or someone monumentally arrogant or stupid; would that description fit anyone currently in Governmentâ€¦..?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2016)

woody69 said:



			You seem to be getting confused. You are not voting for a person, you are voting for Britain. 

You are also confused as we can send a jobless migrant home after 6 months.

You also paint a rather odd view on "helping the poorer countries" - "pulled our socks up and built a once great country whilst they just say around lazing in the sun"? You're on a wind up aren't you?
		
Click to expand...

No I'm afraid he is serious. The have been some good logical arguments to leave which reassures you that they are not all xenophobic little englanders. Then there are his posts....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What Cameron said a year ago doesn't concern me - I am listening to the experts, Cameron isn't one.
		
Click to expand...

Once again you choose to ignore the fact that Corbyn was also saying it .

I have not seen one report from one economist openly stating what the EU will look like in the future so I was asking you. There is more to the EU than the economy.

Come on, give us an insight, you knock the leave because they don't know, what are things going to be like in the future within the EU.

At last on the old TV we have had an honest answere from a person voting remain; "I think I will be better off". (Ps, I have no problem with that as a response).


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or someone monumentally arrogant or stupid; would that description fit anyone currently in Governmentâ€¦..?
		
Click to expand...

Or Parliament


----------



## drdel (Jun 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I have answered your questions fully.  _Leave _opened the Pandora's box on immigration, making it open season on immigration and migrants; failing to rebutt the most ludicrous statements made by supporters of Leave for fear of losing their vote - and hence allowing a horrible and disturbing 'them and us' environment to develop. 

What don't you get about me saying that I trust in the economists - hells teeth - I am not an expert - why should I even pretend to have any idea?  I trust in those who do - and in whose expertise we, governments and bodies who need a view of the future always look to - except if you support _Leave _when all such expert opinion is rubbished as ill-informed, self-serving or a conspiracy.  This woul dbe quite pathetic if it wasn't so sad and dispiriting.

What Cameron said a year ago doesn't concern me - I am listening to the experts, Cameron isn't one.
		
Click to expand...


I'm an econometrician of 30yrs and I wouldn't trust the 'big hand, small map' models/predictions that have been bandied about.  The EU is an experimental political architecture for those countries who wish to be organised by a paid, not elected, executive of 'experts'.

It is hugely expensive and it getting ever more costly: taking money from the relatively rich north and west countries to the poorer south an eastern nations in probably the most inefficient way possible.  This executive has had pay rises at levels only dreamt about by those outside, they have consistently broken their own budgets and rules.

At the moment to ECB is printing money at a phenomenal rate and giving it to the Banks of southern states, if the IMF gets cold feet he 'rich' nations will have to step in (UK included).

If you're happy that the benefits are worth these ever increasing costs stick with it. Its my view that many other member states are very worried over their national debt and, if they could, would dump the Euro but, as they don't have the economic base the UK enjoys they are stuffed.

I'm alright Jack I've earned many Euros from Brussels thanks so whatever the vote it wont impact me but I'm betting your kids will suffer if UK continues subsidising the Executive and other nations as it has done.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Once again you choose to ignore the fact that Corbyn was also saying it .

I have not seen one report from one economist openly stating what the EU will look like in the future so I was asking you. There is more to the EU than the economy.

Come on, give us an insight, you knock the leave because they don't know, *what are things going to be like in the future within the EU.*

At last on the old TV we have had an honest answere from a person voting remain; "I think I will be better off". (Ps, I have no problem with that as a response).
		
Click to expand...

Honestly - I don't know.  But I don;t have to know as there are many experts with a great deal of experience whose job it is to forecast the state of things to come; experts that companies big and small take advice from when planning their investment, I trust the opinion of these experts.  After all - if we cannot trust what these experts say how is anyone going to make any investment planning in the future.  And I might as well extend the list a little further and add the Chief Executive of the London Stock Exchange - who of course has already had his opinion and forecasts rubbished.

And we may as well of course scrap the House of Lords as the whole point of a second chamber is for it to have 'expert' members to consider legislation in light of their experience and knowledge, which it seems counts for nothing as far as _Leave_ are concerned.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Once again you choose to ignore the fact that Corbyn was also saying it .

I have not seen one report from one economist openly stating what the EU will look like in the future so I was asking you. There is more to the EU than the economy.

Come on, give us an insight, you knock the leave because they don't know, what are things going to be like in the future within the EU.

At last on the old TV we have had an honest answere from a person voting remain; "I think I will be better off". (Ps, I have no problem with that as a response).
		
Click to expand...

How about......Pretty similar to now - but with a few improvements - as negotiated by 'Our Dave'!

Btw. If Economists are unwilling - or perhaps don't see the need because it's pretty bleeding obvious (??) - then what's the point asking someone on the forum to predict the future?!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. If Economists are unwilling - or perhaps don't see the need because it's pretty bleeding obvious (??) - then what's the point asking someone on the forum to predict the future?!
		
Click to expand...

a. Because his biggest comeback is that remain cannot say what will happen the future.

and

b. It's raining and don't fancy the golf course today.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			a. Because his biggest comeback is that *remain* cannot say what will happen the future.

and

b. It's raining and don't fancy the golf course today.
		
Click to expand...

Been on the booze again? I think you mean 'Brexit'!

The simple answer, of course, is that no-one can say for certain what will happen in the future, but it's certainly more predictable if UK Remains - as it will be much like now, but with some improvement!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2016)

Worth a look from a professor in EU constitutional law.  However I will warn you that if you favour staying you will think it is a very fair and sober view of the choices and what may happen if we vote to leave. If you want to leave you will think he is a lefty communist who is throwing out scare stories.

[video=youtube_share;USTypBKEd8Y]https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y[/video]


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Been on the booze again? I think you mean 'Brexit'!

The simple answer, of course, is that no-one can say for certain what will happen in the future, but it's certainly more predictable if UK Remains - as it will be much like now, but with some improvement!
		
Click to expand...

Just fat fingers on a small phone.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Just fat fingers on a small phone.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:
You can't blame fat fingers on a small phone for typing 'remain' as opposed to 'brexit'!


----------



## patricks148 (Jun 20, 2016)

Found out something today that has changed my mind completely....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:
You can't blame fat fingers on a small phone for typing 'remain' as opposed to 'brexit'!
		
Click to expand...

I can. Obviously not the best excuse but I have two televisions cheering on our British footballers. And it's the only one I have at the moment.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 20, 2016)

We have received a suggestion that this thread is locked whilst the polling stations are open , so 7am -10pm Thursday.

Going to throw this out for comments for and against

My own feeling is that on the day, this thread is unlikely to influence anybody one way or the other


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We have received a suggestion that this thread is locked whilst the polling stations are open , so 7am -10pm Thursday.

Going to throw this out for comments for and against

My own feeling is that on the day, this thread is unlikely to influence anybody one way or the other
		
Click to expand...

Close it now!

Nobody is in danger of altering their position based on the quality of this debate.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We have received a suggestion that this thread is locked whilst the polling stations are open , so 7am -10pm Thursday.

Going to throw this out for comments for and against

My own feeling is that on the day, this thread is unlikely to influence anybody one way or the other
		
Click to expand...

Why on earth close it? I kind of think we are taking ourselves a little bit too seriously and showing ourselves a bit too much side if we think we have any influence like the media outlets do who have a news blackout on the day.  It's only a  bunch of sad old golfers yakking on the internet making the same old points over and over and over and over and over again. 

 As you say, if you are not sure by that stage and need the help of this forum then god help you.  And I suspect no one has been really influenced in the previous 3037 posts, so another few ain't going to make any difference.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2016)

Close it!

Its pretty obvious everyone is dithering over their choices...


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 20, 2016)

woody69 said:



			You seem to be getting confused. You are not voting for a person, you are voting for Britain. 

You are also confused as we can send a jobless migrant home after 6 months.

You also paint a rather odd view on "helping the poorer countries" - "pulled our socks up and built a once great country whilst they just say around lazing in the sun"? You're on a wind up aren't you?
		
Click to expand...

No,Cameron may say we can send them home but we won't be able to. As for the pulled our socks up thing. Just what were other countires doing whislt we had the industrial revolution? You saying we had all the clever people and all the workers?


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 20, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			No,Cameron may say we can send them home but we won't be able to. As for the pulled our socks up thing. Just what were other countires doing whislt we had the industrial revolution? You saying we had all the clever people and all the workers?
		
Click to expand...

You might want consider googling what the Greeks were doing whilst we were battering each other with clubs.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			You might want consider googling what the Greeks were doing whilst we were battering each other with clubs.
		
Click to expand...

And the Romans.  What did the Roman's do for us?


----------



## Liverbirdie (Jun 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the Romans.  What did the Roman's do for us?
		
Click to expand...

Built a big wall - it was before referendums.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2016)

Keep it open. What else are we going to do on a rainy day


----------



## Fish (Jun 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the Romans.  What did the Roman's do for us?
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully they invented central heating.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2016)

Fish said:



			Thankfully they invented central heating.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's certainly something concrete - in fact they invented that as well - then in our super-intelligence we forgot how to make it.  So there's nothing new in us forgetting lessons of the past.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Close it!

Its pretty obvious everyone is dithering over their choices...
		
Click to expand...

I'm not, I've already voted.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			You might want consider googling what the Greeks were doing whilst we were battering each other with clubs.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget the cheesemakers big nose!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

OK, the big guns are weighing in.  From Becks Facebook page.

I'm passionate about my country and whatever the result of Thursday's referendum, we will always be Great. Each side has the right to their opinion and that should always be respected whatever the outcome of the European Referendum.
"I played my best years at my boyhood club, Manchester United. I grew up with a core group of young British players that included Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Nicky Butt and the Neville Brothers. Added to that was an experienced group of older British players such as Gary Pallister, Steve Bruce and Paul Ince.
Now that team might have gone on to win trophies but we were a better and more successful team because of a Danish goalkeeper, Peter Schmeichel, the leadership of an Irishman Roy Keane and the skill of a Frenchman in Eric Cantona.
I was also privileged to play and live in Madrid, Milan and Paris with teammates from all around Europe and the world. Those great European cities and their passionate fans welcomed me and my family and gave us the opportunity to enjoy their unique and inspiring cultures and people.
We live in a vibrant and connected world where together as a people we are strong. For our children and their children we should be facing the problems of the world together and not alone.
For these reasons I am voting to Remain


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

And here's Clarkson and May.

[video=youtube_share;cPz179E7rhA]https://youtu.be/cPz179E7rhA[/video]


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

And a fun (of course you'll be the judge of that, I am sure some of you will think it is puerile and stupid) take on it.  This is a Brit who hosts a weekly show on US TV. The song at the end is very good. But a warning, it is not safe for work. I repeat not safe for work, there are some rude words in it. 

[video=youtube_share;iAgKHSNqxa8]https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8[/video]


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2016)

Interesting discussion on the radio about the differences between being an immigrant and an ex-pat.

Anyone know how the Spanish [UK immigrants/ex-pats] are viewing the referendum?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that's certainly something concrete - in fact they invented that as well - then in our super-intelligence we forgot how to make it.  So there's nothing new in us forgetting lessons of the past.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, not having any active volcanoes probably didn't help Britons keep the recipe though! And could also be why 'that' wall didn't last too!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting discussion on the radio about the differences between being an immigrant and an ex-pat.

Anyone know how the Spanish [UK immigrants/ex-pats] are viewing the referendum?
		
Click to expand...

Our local BBC channel had an interview with some of the UK ex pats in Spain the other day.  And some of them were hilarious, sat there drinking their lager and having their Full English breakfast next to the sea in Spain taking advantage of the free movement of people within the EU, moaning about immigration and how the UK was going to the dogs so they were voting out. 

The line between reality and parody is very thin at times and I swear with some very slight changes to some of the dialogue, it would have made a very funny comedy sketch.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2016)

I have often wondered where the term ex-pat came from.
Being an ex-patriot must mean you know longer support the country you left.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 21, 2016)

I've not contributed to this thread for a while as it seemed pretty pointless, the campaign in microcosm maybe.....but I don't know how anyone could vote out once they have watched the YouTube link that HK posted.

(From the prof not Jeremy clarkson )


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Our local BBC channel had an interview with some of the UK ex pats in Spain the other day.  And some of them were hilarious, sat there drinking their lager and having their Full English breakfast next to the sea in Spain taking advantage of the free movement of people within the EU, moaning about immigration and how the UK was going to the dogs so they were voting out. 

The line between reality and parody is very thin at times and I swear with some very slight changes to some of the dialogue, it would have made a very funny comedy sketch.
		
Click to expand...

Imagine what the Two Ronnies would have done to that.
Barker in sandals/socks/tied handkerchief hat.......Corbett in Union Jack swimsuit.........we do miss them.


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2016)

Stuck my vote in the post this morning, now roll on Friday so it's all over.


----------



## ger147 (Jun 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have often wondered where the term ex-pat came from.
Being an ex-patriot must mean you know longer support the country you left.
		
Click to expand...

It's a shortened version of Expatriate and is derived from the Latin Ex meaning Out of and Patria meaning Country.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have often wondered where the term ex-pat came from.
Being an ex-patriot must mean you know longer support the country you left.
		
Click to expand...

It just means you're white. Because if you're not then you're obviously an immigrant. (That appears to be how the difference between ex-pats and immigrants works)


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Being an ex-patriot must mean you know longer support the country you left.
		
Click to expand...


Is that how you felt when you moved to England then?


----------



## vkurup (Jun 21, 2016)

Was trying to do a deal for new carpets as we refurbing.   The last carpets that were put down in 1983 and were felt-backed and they have crumbled and there is black dust everywhere as we try and remove them.  The new carpets are now foam backed among other things.   So while trying to negotiate a deal with the carpet fella I asked if we can get felt backed ones.  His response had me chuckling.. 

<parphased>
Salesguy: _Well the felt backed ones are cheaper but we stopped selling them due to EU regulations.  The EU is phasing them out as no one is sure what kind of dioxins are in them and they dont want us to put it into residential use. Otherwise I could help. _ 

I wanted to ask him if he is exit or Remain as the EU is affecting his carpet business, but did not ask him that question.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Our local BBC channel had an interview with some of the UK ex pats in Spain the other day.  And some of them were hilarious, sat there drinking their lager and having their Full English breakfast next to the sea in Spain taking advantage of the free movement of people within the EU, moaning about immigration and how the UK was going to the dogs so they were voting out. 

*The line between reality and parody is very thin at times and I swear with some very slight changes to some of the dialogue, it would have made a very funny comedy sketch.*

Click to expand...

I have been listening to a phone-in on LBC this morning (James O'Brien) looking at what is behind the poll by YouGov for LBC that has found that 46% of Leave voters believe the vote will be rigged to Remain.  Some of the callers have been hilarious - if it wasn't so worrying and indeed frightening.  Because it is quite clear that many voting Leave are completely deluded, and even if UK votes Leave (please God no) when the brave new world that they have been sold by the Leave campaign does not comer to pass (which it won't)  - then that will be a conspiracy by the establishment.  

And listening to Gove this morning on Today - he hadn't a clue about how immigration was actually going to be controlled - and indeed said that nothing could be done until 2020 at the earliest.  Not I think what has been sold to Leavers

And as far as Bojo's usual and shockingly arrogant dismissal of yet more expert opinion warning of problems to come.  He and Gove should be forced to take a lead in sorting out a post-Brexit disaster - they just want to walk away - disgraceful

We are all in a handcart heading to hell.  And the demons that Leave have let out of the box are going to cause us huge issues in the coming years and we may not be able to get them back in the box once owned by Pandora.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 21, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			Stuck my vote in the post this morning, now roll on Friday so it's all over.
		
Click to expand...

It will only just have begun.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Is that how you felt when you moved to England then?
		
Click to expand...

No, I was an economic migrant, like many of my fellow countrymen/women.

I was just wondering about the term ex pat.......nothing sinsiter.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want to open a discussion on that alone then I would be happy to continue discussing away from the Referendum issue.  I would also discuss by PM if you want.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, only just seen this post... Thanks for the offer, but I believe that this topic is important to the general direction of this thread and I would prefer to keep the discussion public for now.. Not that I don't enjoy our back and forth :thup:..

Anyway, I see we now have a genuine bonafide Economist on the thread, and one who clearly leans towards the Brexit camp.. I would welcome his expertise...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Was trying to do a deal for new carpets as we refurbing.   The last carpets that were put down in 1983 and were felt-backed and they have crumbled and there is black dust everywhere as we try and remove them.  The new carpets are now foam backed among other things.   So while trying to negotiate a deal with the carpet fella I asked if we can get felt backed ones.  His response had me chuckling.. 

<parphased>
Salesguy: _Well the felt backed ones are cheaper but we stopped selling them due to EU regulations.  The EU is phasing them out as no one is sure what kind of dioxins are in them and they dont want us to put it into residential use. Otherwise I could help. _ 

I wanted to ask him if he is exit or Remain as the EU is affecting his carpet business, but did not ask him that question.
		
Click to expand...

I'll be hearing next that it's the pesky EU that has caused the demise of the asbestos building supplies industry.  Of course back in the the day we didn't realise the health dangers of asbestos - I think if we'd even suspected the potential killer that asbestos is back then they'd have been banned - and no doubt some would have been complaining.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I was an economic migrant, like many of my fellow countrymen/women.

I was just wondering about the term ex pat.......nothing sinsiter.
		
Click to expand...

My sister and her family (husband and 2 kids) live in Southern Spain.. My BIL runs his UK based business from their Villa, pays taxes in the UK, pays private school fees in Spain, stimulates the local economy by spending every weekend socializing .. Each of them now speaks 3 languages, and have integrated into the local way of life almost completely... Annoyingly, they also fly in to watch Wigan Athletic and West Brom at least 5 times a season, as well as holding season tickets for Ayamonte CF.... 

I'm not even sure they consider themselves English anymore.. They speak Spanish at home, read Spanish books and watch Spanish TV..


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not even sure they consider themselves English anymore.. They speak Spanish at home, read Spanish books and watch Spanish TV..
		
Click to expand...


A former workmate took early retirement due to ill health...
As he could get more bang for his bucks he took himself with the wife off to France...

Are you gonna learn the lingo he was asked...
Am I 'eck he replied... Loud English will get me through...
After two years he spoke almost perfect French...
After five years, when coming back here to visit, he would have to translate English into French as it had become his first language...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 21, 2016)

I've always believed that brexiters who claim that trade etc will continue much as before with the EU in the event of brexit were either downright lying or living in cloud cuckoo land.

The U.K. Can expect a very rough ride in any negotiations as the desire to preserve the EU and discourage further departures outweigh the need to sell us some cars....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36578515


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			It just means you're white.
		
Click to expand...

Does it? I know several 'ex-pats', seeing out their days on the Costa's, that don't fit that pigeon hole...


----------



## vkurup (Jun 21, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Does it? I know several 'ex-pats', seeing out their days on the Costa's, that don't fit that pigeon hole...
		
Click to expand...

As an expat myself, I find it funny when people call me an immigrant and I am surely officially classified as an inward immigrant.  My definition of immigrant would be someone who has come to a country and has not much options to go to a particular country only due to language, economics or post-colonial ties.  As against an expat who can move to any (or most) countries and be economically active.   That was till I read that ONLY white people can be expats while the rest have to be immigrants.  

http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...r/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've always believed that brexiters who claim that trade etc will continue much as before with the EU in the event of brexit were either downright lying or living in cloud cuckoo land.

The U.K. Can expect a very rough ride in any negotiations as the desire to preserve the EU and discourage further departures outweigh the need to sell us some cars....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36578515

Click to expand...

Equally, the second European politician quoted said they would push for a quick resolution. Both are guessing. The Brexiters are saying it will be fine, and the Remainers are saying it won't... do either of them really know?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Equally, the second European politician quoted said they would push for a quick resolution. Both are guessing. The Brexiters are saying it will be fine, and the Remainers are saying it won't... do either of them really know?
		
Click to expand...

We need to form our own opinions. IMO the idea that it'll all click easily into place and we won't be disadvantaged is just pie in the sky.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We need to form our own opinions. IMO the idea that it'll all click easily into place and we won't be disadvantaged is just pie in the sky.
		
Click to expand...

I can't disagree with that. There'll be give and take from both sides depending on what aspect is most important to each party. The Leavers would no doubt win some things but will also lose. One thing is for sure, as you alluded to previously, the remaining EU member states will have books to rebalance and will be out for their pound of flesh.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2016)

I don't know the truth of it but my daughters 'city' friend said that the banks have booked up all of the central London hotels on results night. They are expecting a severe run on the pound if the separatists win.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			As an expat myself, I find it funny when people call me an immigrant and I am surely officially classified as an inward immigrant.  My definition of immigrant would be someone who has come to a country and has not much options to go to a particular country only due to language, economics or post-colonial ties.  As against an expat who can move to any (or most) countries and be economically active.   That was till I read that ONLY white people can be expats while the rest have to be immigrants.  

http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...r/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration

Click to expand...

Yep! As an ex-pat Kiwi, I'm an immigrant (to UK)!

It's perhaps only the English talking about *their* ex-pats that continues that 'white supremacy' illusion - if it actually exists!


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 21, 2016)

I work for a fairly well known, large mulit-national, and just sat in on a 3-5 strategy roadmap meeting - up comes the SWOT analysis by our Head of Strategy. Number 1 threat was Brexit, where using our data and expertise (we have access to more financial data, public, private and international than you could possibly imagine) we are forecasting a 10% drop in GDP in the UK over next 5 years as well as the pound taking an enormous hit this year should there be a leave vote - very, very scary with repercussions for a generation.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I work for a fairly well known, large mulit-national, and just sat in on a 3-5 strategy roadmap meeting - up comes the SWOT analysis by our Head of Strategy. Number 1 threat was Brexit, where using our data and expertise (we have access to more financial data, public, private and international than you could possibly imagine) we are forecasting a 10% drop in GDP in the UK over next 5 years as well as the pound taking an enormous hit this year should there be a leave vote - very, very scary with repercussions for a generation.
		
Click to expand...

Scaremonger, don't you know it's not cool to listen to the 'so called experts' (trademark anyone not agreeing with what said experts say)   

Is it a good time to withdraw all my money in shares and my pension pot and stick it under the mattress then?

And your company seems to be missing the main issue in that we would not have to have straight bananas when we come out. Or something like that.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 21, 2016)

Remember the Millennium Bug?

I rest my case


----------



## drdel (Jun 21, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I work for a fairly well known, large mulit-national, and just sat in on a 3-5 strategy roadmap meeting - up comes the SWOT analysis by our Head of Strategy. Number 1 threat was Brexit, where using our data and expertise (we have access to more financial data, public, private and international than you could possibly imagine) we are forecasting a 10% drop in GDP in the UK over next 5 years as well as the pound taking an enormous hit this year should there be a leave vote - very, very scary with repercussions for a generation.
		
Click to expand...

Glad I don't work with your lot.  A strategy meeting should be using the analysis of various potential scenarios to assess what the action need to be to taken advantage and turn them to opportunities. I guess your guys will do nothing about the euro Exchange rates that will bump along when the ECB hits the buffers.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Remember the Millennium Bug?

I rest my case
		
Click to expand...

Completely different scenario!

Companies had plenty of warning and could actually prepare and TEST whether they would be affected - and determine what the effect would be!

It was through such an exercise that the effects were actually virtually eliminated. Virtually every medium and upwards sized company/organisation performed an analysis/risk assessment and took whatever action was necessary to prevent the potential chaos! 

Here, the actual potential effects are 'unknown', though there are still actions companies can take - which I am certain they  will have examined and decided whether or not to action - to mitigate potential problems!


----------



## MarkE (Jun 21, 2016)

Did anyone see Corbyn on the news today? (Unfortunately dragged along Alan Johnson).  I've never had much time for him to be honest, but today he gave his reasons for Remaining in the EU and I must say he was the most persuasive of all the remain crew. No scare mongering, just the positives as he see's it of remaining. Pity he did'nt get involved earlier, we may have had more productive tv debating than the back and forth arguing of the last couple of months, and he could well have convinced some of the waverers round to his way of thinking.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Completely different scenario!

Companies had plenty of warning and could actually prepare and TEST whether they would be affected - and determine what the effect would be!

It was through such an exercise that the effects were actually virtually eliminated. Virtually every medium and upwards sized company/organisation performed an analysis/risk assessment and took whatever action was necessary to prevent the potential chaos! 

Here, the actual potential effects are 'unknown', though there are still actions companies can take - which I am certain they  will have examined and decided whether or not to action - to mitigate potential problems!
		
Click to expand...


There were still "experts" saying that aircraft are going to fall out of the sky, Power stations would go into meltdown and all the nukes were going to be set off.

just saying that I trust the "experts" on both sides of the argument with as much scepticism as I did 16 years ago


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Did anyone see Corbyn on the news today? (Unfortunately dragged along Alan Johnson).  I've never had much time for him to be honest, but today he gave his reasons for Remaining in the EU and I must say he was the most persuasive of all the remain crew. No scare mongering, just the positives as he see's it of remaining. Pity he did'nt get involved earlier, we may have had more productive tv debating than the back and forth arguing of the last couple of months, and he could well have convinced some of the waverers round to his way of thinking.
		
Click to expand...

He was never going to get involved as he basically does not wish to remain but has been convinced by his front bench colleagues that Remain is politically expedient for his party.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 21, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			He was never going to get involved as he basically does not wish to remain but has been convinced by his front bench colleagues that Remain is politically expedient for his party.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Just feel his more measured, less sensationalist approach would have been welcome during the whole process.


----------



## Lump (Jun 21, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			He was never going to get involved as he basically does not wish to remain but has been convinced by his front bench colleagues that Remain is politically expedient for his party.
		
Click to expand...

and its why a lot of people in the know are saying labour will have zero chance of getting in come the next election. If he had aligned himself with the brexit side, win or loose, he'd have been a shoe in.

I thing that irks me about the remain crew.... we where told if didn't join the EURO it would be the biggest mistake in our history. That prediction never came to fruition. The scare mongering isn't needed.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

Lump said:



			I thing that irks me about the remain crew.... we where told if didn't join the EURO it would be the biggest mistake in our history. That prediction never came to fruition. The scare mongering isn't needed.
		
Click to expand...

I hope your not suggesting all those experts got it wrong.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Remember the Millennium Bug?

I rest my case
		
Click to expand...

Do you remember how much time, effort and money was spent by big companies - mine included - to analyse, categorise and mitigate Y2K risks so that the risk of anything going wrong was minimised?  

And hey presto - all our good work - including a fair amount of fixing stuff - meant that nothing untoward went wrong.  But that was *because* we took the Y2K risk event seriously and did not  bury our head in the sand hoping that it would all be OK.  I know - I was out Head Office Y2K Risk Manager.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 21, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			There were still "experts" saying that aircraft are going to fall out of the sky, Power stations would go into meltdown and all the nukes were going to be set off.

just saying that I trust the "experts" on both sides of the argument with as much scepticism as I did 16 years ago
		
Click to expand...

Agree there was a lot of scary stories.... BUT because of that we deployed a lot of folks to FIX the problem and get out without an incident. My friend used to work on the Y2K for a European Airline. They were given free tickets for Jan 1st to any destination of their choice.... Total number of IT folks who took up the offer.. Zero!! 
Completely different scenarios to Brexit. Y2K was the 'known unknown', Brexit is the 'unknown-unknown'


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I hope your not suggesting all those experts got it wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Not all experts were pro us joining the Euro - not all were against - there was a reasonable split.  So some were right and some were wrong about impact  long term.  This time the vast majority - almost the totality - of experts are saying Brexit will harm our economy - and Gove and BoJo will have us believing that ALL of these experts are going to be wrong - even those who got the Euro decision right.

And in yet another interview this evening Gove would not say what he thought would be an acceptable level of immigration - and as he did this morning - declared that that is for a debate that the UK public have to have once we have left.  Really?  I think many Leavers expect immigration to be in the 10s of thousands (Farage) - and certainly under 100,000 (Tories last election).


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not all experts were pro us joining the Euro - not all were against - there was a reasonable split.  So some were right and some were wrong about impact  long term.  This time the vast majority - almost the totality - of experts are saying Brexit will harm our economy - and Gove and BoJo will have us believing that ALL of these experts are going to be wrong - even those who got the Euro decision right.
		
Click to expand...

In the same way that you and many on the remain side suggest that the out economists must be wrong because there are less of them.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Agree there was a lot of scary stories.... BUT because of that we deployed a lot of folks to FIX the problem and get out without an incident. My friend used to work on the Y2K for a European Airline. They were given free tickets for Jan 1st to any destination of their choice.... Total number of IT folks who took up the offer.. Zero!! 
Completely different scenarios to Brexit. Y2K was the 'known unknown', *Brexit is the 'unknown-unknown'*

Click to expand...

It is an 'unknown-unknown' compared with Y2K - but it is quite different from the banking crises, which many did not see coming and many did not fully appreciate what had been going on, in that Brexit is a 'known-unknown' in that we know *when *the event is going to happen and we know the things that might happen and so can model them with various levels of uncertainly with other known events happening in the following days, weeks and months - each which can be modelled.  As it happens I have done a lot of system modelling in the past when you use past experience and outcomes to adjust your states and system dynamics to improve your predictions.  So where the experts may have failed in the past - their current modelling will have been improved based upon that experience,  and this time their models have a known and precise initial state.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			In the same way that you and many on the remain side suggest that the out economists must be wrong because there are less of them.
		
Click to expand...

No - I do not suggest at all that they must be wrong - I suggest that they are more likely to be wrong given the vast majority take the different view,  it is Bojo and Gove who are in complete denial as they simply rubbish, denigrate and traduce these experts in often silly and rather childish ways.  Why does Gove not believe what the CEO of the London Stock Exchange says about loss of city jobs in event of Brexit - why....of course these jobs won't go as who in the right mind would move from London to Frankfurt it's such a boring place.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			CEO of the London Stock Exchange
		
Click to expand...

Well he is French and just might have other motives.

Frankfurt has been trying to get the money markets to move there with limited success for over 10 years. As they deal in world issues and are not limited to the EU perhaps they prefer the high life of London, Frankfurt is actually worse than boring, now if it was Hamburg.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



*Well he is French and just might have other motives.*

Frankfurt has been trying to get the money markets to move there with limited success for over 10 years. As they deal in world issues and are not limited to the EU perhaps they prefer the high life of London, Frankfurt is actually worse than boring, now if it was Hamburg.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect his motive is for the LSE to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders.  Much the same motive as every CEO has in the real world.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect his motive is for the LSE to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders.  Much the same motive as every CEO has in the real world.
		
Click to expand...

You may suspect it as I suspect that as he is from France he may be more aligned to the EU which would be quite natural.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 21, 2016)

I used to like BoJo when he was the mayor.  We needed a madcap mayor for this madcap city. But then he lost all my respect when he decided to join the brexit camp over a weekend just because it was politically convenient for him to get into No 10 (heaven forbid)

Is it just me or is Bojo starting to regret his decision on this... Furiously back pedalling on the poster and now immigration ... He is being found out...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Is it just me or is Bojo starting to regret his decision on this... Furiously back pedalling on the poster and now immigration ... He is being found out...
		
Click to expand...

Let's be fair, that poster was nothing to do with the official leave campaign and could well have tipped the balance in favour of remain.

The man (his team) came up with some great ideas in London but he will never be in No 10.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You may suspect it as I suspect that as he is from France he may be more aligned to the EU which would be quite natural.
		
Click to expand...

Any CEO that puts political motives over profits will very quickly find themself out of a job, and quite possibly out of the "boys club" that seems to guarantee future jobs.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Any CEO that puts political motives over profits will very quickly find themself out of a job, and quite possibly out of the "boys club" that seems to guarantee future jobs.
		
Click to expand...

Or as an alternative view, doesn't get awarded govt contracts and knighthoods.

Only playing devils advocate, before anyone slates me for suggesting a different view.... which I may not agree with


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 21, 2016)

drdel said:



			Glad I don't work with your lot.  A strategy meeting should be using the analysis of various potential scenarios to assess what the action need to be to taken advantage and turn them to opportunities. I guess your guys will do nothing about the euro Exchange rates that will bump along when the ECB hits the buffers.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how you can infer that wasn't what we were doing?! Thats the purpose of a SWOT! Your suggestion in then irrelevant to the context of the meeting as that's not the focus of 'my guys' when we work in a different industry to a different market. But thanks for the MBA anyway. 

And as to 'work with your lot' I am proud to work for an enterprise who indubitably make the world a better place. 

Sorry to take the thread off track but your response was uninformed and somewhat rude. Jumping to conclusions. Sounds just like a brexiter to me!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Any CEO that puts political motives over profits will very quickly find themself out of a job, and quite possibly out of the "boys club" that seems to guarantee future jobs.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where I said it was politically motivated. My suggestion is that some peoples nationalities may give them more of a leaning one way or another.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Jumping to conclusions. Sounds just like a brexiter to me!
		
Click to expand...

Do you normally tar people with the same brush just because they may have similar wishes. Who's jumping to conclusions now.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You may suspect it as I suspect that as he is from France he may be more aligned to the EU which would be quite natural.
		
Click to expand...

He's the CEO of one of the largest stock exchange groups in the world, do you really think even in the most paranoid fantasies that he will start making business decisions and forecasts based on his nationality as opposed what is best for the company he runs?  I'm pretty sure we had this paranoia about foreign bosses of companies on the LSE who are apparently unqualified to offer an informed opinion 'because they are foreign' about 2000 posts ago. I'm more than happy to listen to logical arguments, but if that is the best people can manage when trying to refuse someones opinion then it kind of strengthens my resolve to vote remain.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure where I said it was politically motivated. My suggestion is that some peoples nationalities may give them more of a leaning one way or another.
		
Click to expand...

Companies (ergo CEO's) are legally obliged to put shareholder interests first. The CEO is not allowed to "lean" any other way than profit.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 21, 2016)

Good debate on TV tonight and I think it's safe to say that the leave side headed by Boris won it hands down. Standing ovation at the end for him.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure where I said it was politically motivated. My suggestion is that some peoples nationalities may give them more of a leaning one way or another.
		
Click to expand...

In what way would us remaining in the EU be particularly attractive or beneficial to a French man?

If he is speaking as CEO of the LSE rather than personally it can only be a case of him promoting what he feels best for his shareholders. Otherw ise he would be in breach of his duties.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			He's the CEO of one of the largest stock exchange groups in the world, do you really think even in the most paranoid fantasies that he will start making business decisions and forecasts based on his nationality as opposed what is best for the company he runs?  I'm pretty sure we had this paranoia about foreign bosses of companies on the LSE who are apparently unqualified to offer an informed opinion 'because they are foreign' about 2000 posts ago. I'm more than happy to listen to logical arguments, but if that is the best people can manage when trying to refuse someones opinion then it kind of strengthens my resolve to vote remain.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I'm not paranoid. If you read what I said it had nothing to do with business neither have I mentioned anything about "because they are foreign", have you something against people who are foreign.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Do you normally tar people with the same brush just because they may have similar wishes. Who's jumping to conclusions now.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I don't care too much for spelling and grammar on forums, can you at least try to punctuate correctly so that I can read the post in your intended manner? I wouldn't want respond and therefore be jumping to conclusions regarding your 'point'!


----------



## User62651 (Jun 21, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Good debate on TV tonight and I think it's safe to say that the leave side headed by Boris won it hands down. Standing ovation at the end for him.
		
Click to expand...

It was a decent debate, not sure if anyone won but Gisela Stewart came over very well, cool and considered under pressure for Brexit,  Bojo was just Bojo, Ruth Davidson did best for remain, sure she is making a pitch for the big time, good speaker. Khan and the TUC lady weren't great speakers imo.

Glad to hear the author guy reiterate that Brexit does not make you a xenophobe or racist, needed saying. 

Still dithering!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect his motive is for the LSE to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders.  Much the same motive as every CEO has in the real world.
		
Click to expand...

And if there was more profit to be made by UK leaving, then it would  be incumbent upon the bosses of all listed companies to support Leave - except they are not.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if there was more profit to be made by UK leaving, then it would  be incumbent upon the bosses of all listed companies to support Leave - except they are not.
		
Click to expand...

And not all have said stay.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not all experts were pro us joining the Euro - not all were against - there was a reasonable split.  So some were right and some were wrong about impact  long term.  This time the vast majority - almost the totality - of experts are saying Brexit will harm our economy - and Gove and BoJo will have us believing that ALL of these experts are going to be wrong - even those who got the Euro decision right
		
Click to expand...

And for a very long time the vast majority - almost the totality - of experts thought the world was flat and that didn't work out so well for them in the end. Just because you're in a majority doesn't mean that you are right.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And for a very long time the vast majority - almost the totality - of experts thought the world was flat and that didn't work out so well for them in the end. Just because you're in a majority doesn't mean that you are right.
		
Click to expand...

But it isn't even the vast majority. This is like the Leavers spinning the Â£350million. Of the 1000 business leaders polled, only 170 replied, and only 130 said Remain.

The vast majority of those that replied said Remain, but that isn't e vast majority of 1000.

Joe Public is lapping up the spin from both camps and repeating it as facts.

A couple of weeks back it was widely reported that a US investment bank was saying Brexit is a very bad idea. What wasn't widely reported was another major US bank said the opposite.

Last week there was an editorial in the New York Times about Brexit that even a school child could drive a coach and horses through. Apparently WW2 started in 1940!


----------



## Imurg (Jun 22, 2016)

So, were nearly there
Months of wrangling, discussion, debate, accusations, lies and truths from both sides

Many, many "Experts" are for Remain
Many, many "Experts" are for Leave

If the Experts can't make up their minds why are we leaving the future of our Country in the hands of millions of people who haven't got a clue..?

Why not just toss a coin.......&#128549;


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Whilst I don't care too much for spelling and grammar on forums, can you at least try to punctuate correctly so that I can read the post in your intended manner? I wouldn't want respond and therefore be jumping to conclusions regarding your 'point'!
		
Click to expand...

Cheers teach,! Having had a very successful career where I didn't receive the obvious support required to publish on a golf forum I feel let down and disenfranchised. But there again, those that do, do and those that don't teach.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So, were nearly there
Months of wrangling, discussion, debate, accusations, lies and truths from both sides

Many, many "Experts" are for Remain
Many, many "Experts" are for Leave

If the Experts can't make up their minds why are we leaving the future of our Country in the hands of millions of people who haven't got a clue..?

Why not just toss a coin.......&#63013;
		
Click to expand...

Lets see how fast Parliament repeals the law introduced on EU legislation or are we going to go through this all over again in a couple of years.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 22, 2016)

I had a thought this morning, if being in was so good how come we're having a referendum?


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 22, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So, were nearly there
Months of wrangling, discussion, debate, accusations, lies and truths from both sides

Many, many "Experts" are for Remain
Many, many "Experts" are for Leave

If the Experts can't make up their minds why are we leaving the future of our Country in the hands of millions of people who haven't got a clue..?

Why not just toss a coin.......&#128549;
		
Click to expand...

Just goes to show.....no one knows. Plus there are many out there who really should not vote at all.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Just goes to show.....no one knows. Plus there are many out there who really should not vote at all.
		
Click to expand...

what do you mean? care to expand?


----------



## Imurg (Jun 22, 2016)

therod said:



			what do you mean? care to expand?
		
Click to expand...

The "X" % of people who will be voting simply because they like Boris/Cameron/whoever...and not on what actually may or may not happen....

And Piers Morgan of course......


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

therod said:



			what do you mean? care to expand?
		
Click to expand...

Please no


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



*Lets see how fast Parliament repeals the law introduced on EU legislation* or are we going to go through this all over again in a couple of years.
		
Click to expand...

Suggest you watch this where a professor who has studied this very subject for 20 years can tell you.  

[video=youtube_share;USTypBKEd8Y]https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y[/video]


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

And here's what he said about immigration from the perspective of someone who has studied the EU for 20 years and knows the legal side of it inside out.

â€“ a significant majority of the foreign nationals living in the UK (2/3 at the last national census), and over half the net immigration each year, come from outside the EU.  That is almost entirely within our own domestic competence and power â€“ we seem to be good at immigration, without needing any help from the EU.
â€“ as regards those EU nationals who come to the UK: it is completely dishonest of prominent Leave campaigners repeatedly to claim that there is some sort of unconditional right to move to and settle in another Member State.  We all have a right to circulate â€“ that is the basis on which, e.g. we go on holiday to Spain and France.  But when it comes to settling in another country, there are three main categories of right under EU law: for the economically active (ie in work and paying taxes); for students (eg enrolled at university and thus paying tuition fees); and for those wealthy enough to look after themselves and their families without relying on public benefits.  There is no right to â€œbenefit tourismâ€ under EU law.
â€“ Against that background, it is unsurprising to find that â€“ according to all the objective social science research â€“ EU migrants are significantly more likely to be younger, better qualified and economically active; they pay far more into the country in work and taxes than they take out in public benefits or services.
â€“ When it comes to the particular situation of Eastern European migrants, we are rarely reminded of the fact that the UK was one of only three Member States (the others being Ireland and Sweden) that chose not to impose transitional restrictions on the rights to free movement of new EU citizens during the â€œBig Bangâ€ enlargement of 2004.  We chose to let these people come here as we did; no one forced us to and we could have decided otherwise.  Small wonder that many other Europeans regard the UK debate as rather hypocritical.
â€“ And nor should we forget that free movement is a two way street.  Massive numbers of UK nationals travel for pleasure, study and work around the EU â€“ taking advantage of all the benefits and convenience and protection EU law offers.  Around 2 million UK nationals have also settled in other Member States â€“ and the objective social science research suggests that those migrants are more likely to be economically inactive, ie they are not actively contributing through work and taxes to their host society.  Again â€“ small wonder other Europeans think there is a real double standard at work in the UK debate.
â€“ It is also worth recalling that the accession of future Member States requires the unanimous agreement of the 28 governments plus their national ratification processes.  The only large applicant is Turkey â€“ and there is no realistic prospect of Turkey joining the EU within any of our lifetimes â€“ not least since several countries have indicated that they would hold national referenda on any Turkish deal, obviously in the expectation that their populations would overwhelmingly reject it.â€


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Please no
		
Click to expand...

there was just a certain irony to where he was going, that's all


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Suggest you watch this where a professor who has studied this very subject for 20 years can tell you.  

[video=youtube_share;USTypBKEd8Y]https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y[/video]
		
Click to expand...


this is the one I referred to. Anyone who is 'out' watch this and counter his points.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

therod said:



			this is the one I referred to. Anyone who is 'out' watch this and counter his points.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks to HK for putting it up, my wife is an undecided and when she gets back from work I will suggest she has a watch however she wasn't very happy when the Mayor of London implied that Out voters were nothing more than racists.

Obviously as a long term out voter it had very little influence on me but I did find it interesting all be it more biased as the lecture went on (my view, others may not agree).  I also worry when academics and public sector workers accept reports with only a satisfactory rating. Since leaving the forces I have been involved where reports like this have been done and a mark of satisfactory was a polite way of saying poor without upsetting those being reported on, (once again I state that this is only my opinion) if others are happy with satisfactory then so be it.

I also found his remarks on the Scottish referendum (he may have made it before the interview between the leader of the SNP and the BBC) and the Irish boarder at best badly informed.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 22, 2016)

Very convincing stuff from the remain camp, it does make you wonder sometimes how on earth did me manage on our own for so long without "help" from the EU.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Suggest you watch this where a professor who has studied this very subject for 20 years can tell you.
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to the legislation that states that if the EU Parliament makes any significant changes in the future, further referendums would be triggered.  Another one of Parliaments triple locks, and we all know how easily they are unlocked.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

Irrespective of the result should the UK now consider a new system of government.
It is pretty obvious that the existing one is not fit for purpose.
As an example, two to three times as many liberal Lords than MPs.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Irrespective of the result should the UK now consider a new system of government.
It is pretty obvious that the existing one is not fit for purpose.
As an example, two to three times as many liberal Lords than MPs.
		
Click to expand...

Let's have a referendum on it......they're such fun!


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Very convincing stuff from the remain camp, it does make you wonder sometimes how on earth did me manage on our own for so long without "help" from the EU.
		
Click to expand...

we've never been one our own, the wealth of this country was built on the commonwealth, which is a de-facto trading block. 
We've certainly never been on our own in a globalized modern world.


----------



## delc (Jun 22, 2016)

Thank God the whole thing will be over tomorrow!  &#128580;


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Let's have a referendum on it......they're such fun!

Click to expand...

The separatists are dead against 'un-elected politicians' having a say so if they win I expect them to abolish the HoL toot sweet.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

therod said:



			we've never been one our own, the wealth of this country was built on the commonwealth, which is a de-facto trading block. 
We've certainly never been on our own in a globalized modern world.
		
Click to expand...

The wealth of the UK was built on the slave/tobacco/sugar trade and pillaging the Commonwealth countries.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The separatists are dead against 'un-elected politicians' having a say so if they win I expect them to abolish the HoL toot sweet.
		
Click to expand...

but those are 'our' un-elected mob though Doon.....not some dastardly Frenchies up to no good


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The wealth of the UK was built on the slave/tobacco/sugar trade and pillaging the Commonwealth countries.
		
Click to expand...

de facto trading block, where we held a degree of influence 
we have never been isolationist


----------



## delc (Jun 22, 2016)

When Boris Johnson says "Take back control", what he actually means is that he wants to take control!  &#128580;


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The separatists are dead against 'un-elected politicians' having a say so if they win I expect them to abolish the HoL toot sweet.
		
Click to expand...

As you have proven in the past to be the biggest separatist on the GM Forum , that's a relief.  When's the wake.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



			When Boris Johnson says "Take back control", what he actually means is that he wants to take control!  &#55357;&#56900;
		
Click to expand...

the irony about taking back control, is that our financial future is controlled by hedge fund managers and stock market speculators, who are faceless, non elected and motivated obviously by self interest. All 'taking control' means is providing a political environment to satisfy their requirements in the vain hope they won't ruin us all


----------



## drdel (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Thank God the whole thing will be over tomorrow!  &#128580;
		
Click to expand...

Here, here!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Very convincing stuff from the remain camp, it does make you wonder sometimes how on earth did me manage on our own for so long without "help" from the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Macmillan saw that whilst the UK was doing OK recovering post-war - that was not going to last - hence his keenness for UK to join the EEC (was never formally called the Common Market btw) in 1961 as he could see the EEC forging ahead of the UK and the UK starting to struggle.  And eventually UK joined in 1973.  Hence the success of the UK economy today is despite it's starting position.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Macmillan saw that whilst the UK was doing OK recovering post-war - that was not going to last - hence his keenness for UK to join the EEC (was never formally called the Common Market btw) in 1961 as he could see the EEC forging ahead of the UK and the UK starting to struggle.  And eventually UK joined in 1973.  Hence the success of the UK economy today is despite it's starting position.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with the history lesson, and France vetoed our first effort to join. However, that isn't what we are a member of at present... not that that makes it a bad thing.

As to Turkey; they may not have ticked all the boxes but why are two of our senior diplomats out there looking at accelerated visas for 1.5 million Turkish nationals? Gisle, in last night's debate, is the first politician to allude to it, even though it was in the Times two weeks ago.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

therod said:



			the irony about taking back control, is that our financial future is controlled by hedge fund managers and stock market speculators, who are faceless, non elected and motivated obviously by self interest. All 'taking control' means is providing a political environment to satisfy their requirements in the vain hope they won't ruin us all
		
Click to expand...

Not to worry - Bojo has said that if the UK exits and we go into recession he'll say sorry.  Well that's OK then Bojo. That'll fix things.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Totally agree with the history lesson, and France vetoed our first effort to join. However, that isn't what we are a member of at present... not that that makes it a bad thing.

As to Turkey; they may not have ticked all the boxes but why are two of our senior diplomats out there looking at accelerated visas for 1.5 million Turkish nationals? Gisle, in last night's debate, is the first politician to allude to it, even though it was in the Times two weeks ago.
		
Click to expand...

On Turkey -why are Leave simply ignoring the fact that every member country has a veto over any other country joining.  So regardless of what is happening now in respect of Turkey's accession - *it will not happen *unless the UK agrees. What is so hard to understand about that?


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Turkey -why are Leave simply ignoring the fact that every member country has a veto over any other country joining.  So regardless of what is happening now in respect of Turkey's accession - *it will not happen *unless the UK agrees. What is so hard to understand about that?
		
Click to expand...

From what I recall from a radio debate last week, whether are not they get EU status is irrelevant, as Hobbit mentioned, deals are currently been struck to allow some form of free travel for Turks within Europe.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			From what I recall from a radio debate last week, whether are not they get EU status is irrelevant, as Hobbit mentioned, deals are currently been struck to allow some form of free travel for Turks within Europe.
		
Click to expand...

That may be the case off the back of Turkey acting as Europe's eastern border control.  So let's just scrap that and see where we get with refugee migration from the east.   Because In or Out of the EU - we will have to deal with significant numbers of immigrants and refugees - and it will be tougher without Turkey acting as our border guard, and 'control of our own borders' is not going to help us much on the refugee front.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Turkey -why are Leave simply ignoring the fact that every member country has a veto over any other country joining.  So regardless of what is happening now in respect of Turkey's accession - *it will not happen *unless the UK agrees. What is so hard to understand about that?
		
Click to expand...

There is nothing hard to understand about that but are you so naive to think that a certain amount of horse trading doesn't go on within the EU? For example Germany says to the UK if you back us on Turkey joining then we'll back you on something that you want. 

And it's also interesting that you are willing to believe Cameron when he says that Turkey won't be joining despite you and DfT being two of his biggest critics about what you say were broken promises made during the Scottish referendum. I assume that you are willing take his word for it on this occasion because he is saying something that supports your opinion.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 22, 2016)

Anyhoo, the vote tomorrow will be in favour of staying, as will not be as close as predicted, as most people fear change and that is what the campaign to remain has used...FEAR. 

The Leave posters and placards are up all over my town, with the Remain ones nowhere to be seen, which indicates that the Leave vote is more passionate but that won't carry them over the line....unfortunately.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			There is nothing hard to understand about that but are you so naive to think that a certain amount of horse trading doesn't go on within the EU? For example Germany says to the UK if you back us on Turkey joining then we'll back you on something that you want. 

And it's also interesting that you are willing to believe Cameron when he says that Turkey won't be joining despite you and DfT being two of his biggest critics about what you say were broken promises made during the Scottish referendum. I assume that you are willing take his word for it on this occasion because he is saying something that supports your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron is going to be history when (decades down the line) any vote on Turkey's accession might be held.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may be the case off the back of Turkey acting as Europe's eastern border control.  So let's just scrap that and see where we get with refugee migration from the east.   *Because In or Out of the EU - we will have to deal with significant numbers of immigrants and refugees - and it will be tougher without Turkey acting as our border guard, and 'control of our own borders' is not going to help us much on the refugee front*.
		
Click to expand...

How do you work that out? If we vote to leave then *WE* decide who comes in and not the EU.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

So you are happy to believe Cameron when he says that they won't be joining in the next few years then?

I mean it's not as if the EU have bent/broken the rules before to allow new members to join when they haven't met all the criteria is it?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Anyhoo, the vote tomorrow will be in favour of staying, as will not be as close as predicted, as most people fear change and that is what the campaign to remain has used...FEAR. 

The Leave posters and placards are up all over my town, with the Remain ones nowhere to be seen, which indicates that the Leave vote is more passionate but that won't carry them over the line....unfortunately.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on apart from the last word
It has been like that since day one........all that hot air, porkies, promises, devil deals and energy have been totally wasted.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Turkey -why are Leave simply ignoring the fact that every member country has a veto over any other country joining.  So regardless of what is happening now in respect of Turkey's accession - *it will not happen *unless the UK agrees. What is so hard to understand about that?
		
Click to expand...




Beezerk said:



			From what I recall from a radio debate last week, whether are not they get EU status is irrelevant, as Hobbit mentioned, deals are currently been struck to allow some form of free travel for Turks within Europe.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may be the case off the back of Turkey acting as Europe's eastern border control.  So let's just scrap that and see where we get with refugee migration from the east.   Because In or Out of the EU - we will have to deal with significant numbers of immigrants and refugees - and it will be tougher without Turkey acting as our border guard.
		
Click to expand...

The EU border control is in Greece, not Turkey. Why not give the â‚¬3.2billion to Greece and Italy, not Turkey? Or alternatively, lets call it foreign aid, but at least lets be honest about it.

You're fudging and you know you are. 3 months ago Cameron agreed with the rest of the EU on accelerated membership AND free movement of special status Turkish nationals, i.e. those with diplomatic passports. Unfortunately, even a road sweeper, if he's state employed, can get a special passport. Moving forward with that scenario, the roadsweeper comes to Britain, and his replacement is then also eligible for a special passport.

Whether you like it or not, Cameron has lied and lied again about Turkey. Don't get me wrong, I'm voting in but that doesn't mean I agree with a hell of a lot that has been put out there by Remain or Brexit. I've not lapped up the propaganda


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 22, 2016)

Whilst the Turkish issue is a big one, what happens if we vote out, BUT have to agree to free movement of labour (which everyone is saying we'll have to). We'll still end up with the same Turks coming over, but will have had absolutely no say in the arrangements behind it


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			There is nothing hard to understand about that but are you so naive to think that a certain amount of horse trading doesn't go on within the EU? For example Germany says to the UK if you back us on Turkey joining then we'll back you on something that you want. 

And it's also interesting that *you are willing to believe Cameron when he says that Turkey won't be joining *despite you and DfT being two of his biggest critics about what you say were broken promises made during the Scottish referendum. I assume that you are willing take his word for it on this occasion because he is saying something that supports your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I take what the major politicians are saying with a pinch of salt. Instead I prefer to listen to professors who have studies the EU for years and are experts in EU law, and as I have already posted once this is what said professor said about this: -

_It is also worth recalling that the accession of future Member States requires the unanimous agreement of the 28 governments plus their national ratification processes. The only large applicant is Turkey â€“ and there is no realistic prospect of Turkey joining the EU within any of our lifetimes â€“ not least since several countries have indicated that they would hold national referenda on any Turkish deal, obviously in the expectation that their populations would overwhelmingly reject it.â€_


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 22, 2016)

I really feel that we are about to blow a golden opportunity to improve our country by voting to stay in


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I really feel that we are about to blow a golden opportunity to improve our country by voting to stay in  

Click to expand...

I feel like we could possibly be about to blow decades of hard work and cause serious damage to our economy and security by voting to get out....

In all honesty though, there's no way to definitely know which is the correct decision, even after the result is known.. All we can hope for is that after the result is announced, we show how "Great" we are as a nation by all pulling together to make the future better.... Unfortunately, as we all know, what will actually happen is that Politicians on both sides of the argument will attempt to gain power by saying/doing whatever they feel is necessary to undermine the other side.. 

Sadly, whichever way we vote, we'll be sabotaged from within by those who put their own advancement ahead of the welfare of the nation...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ys-in-so-they-can-keep-whining-20160219106386


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2016)

Something decidedly fishy about the characters in this pic!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36594834


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How do you work that out? If we vote to leave then *WE* decide who comes in and not the EU.
		
Click to expand...

We will still have a humanitarian (and Christian if we still claim to be such a nation) responsibility to accept and care for refugees - we cannot stop refugees coming to our shores.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you are happy to believe Cameron when he says that they won't be joining in the next few years then?

I mean it's not as if the EU have bent/broken the rules before to allow new members to join when they haven't met all the criteria is it?
		
Click to expand...

...and you are happy to believe all the empty promises being given by Gove and Bojo over trade.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Personally I take what the major politicians are saying with a pinch of salt. Instead I prefer to listen to professors who have studies the EU for years and are experts in EU law, and as I have already posted once this is what said professor said about this: -

_It is also worth recalling that the accession of future Member States requires the unanimous agreement of the 28 governments plus their national ratification processes. The only large applicant is Turkey â€“ and there is no realistic prospect of Turkey joining the EU within any of our lifetimes â€“ not least since several countries have indicated that they would hold national referenda on any Turkish deal, obviously in the expectation that their populations would overwhelmingly reject it.â€_


Click to expand...

Honestly HK - I'd have thought by now that you'd understand that the experts are all in cahoots with the _Remain _campaign (and probably funded by the EU) and so can be ignored.  Poor old Mr "Now, what I want is, Facts" Gradgrind would be most frustrated as whenever someone with the facts appears - they are dismissed.


----------



## woody69 (Jun 22, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I had a thought this morning, if being in was so good how come we're having a referendum?
		
Click to expand...

Cameron used it as an election tool to effectively sway the electorate that were thinking of voting UKIP and secure their vote. It worked.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How do you work that out? If we vote to leave then *WE* decide who comes in and not the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Again from that damn professor whose job it is to know about this kind of thing...

a significant majority of the foreign nationals living in the UK (2/3 at the last national census), and over half the net immigration each year, come from outside the EU. That is almost entirely within our own domestic competence and power â€“ we seem to be good at immigration, without needing any help from the EU.
â€“ as regards those EU nationals who come to the UK: it is completely dishonest of prominent Leave campaigners repeatedly to claim that there is some sort of unconditional right to move to and settle in another Member State. We all have a right to circulate â€“ that is the basis on which, e.g. we go on holiday to Spain and France. But when it comes to settling in another country, there are three main categories of right under EU law: for the economically active (ie in work and paying taxes); for students (eg enrolled at university and thus paying tuition fees); and for those wealthy enough to look after themselves and their families without relying on public benefits. There is no right to â€œbenefit tourismâ€ under EU law.
â€“ Against that background, it is unsurprising to find that â€“ according to all the objective social science research â€“ EU migrants are significantly more likely to be younger, better qualified and economically active; they pay far more into the country in work and taxes than they take out in public benefits or services.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and you are happy to believe all the empty promises being given by Gove and Bojo over trade.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a reason why you never make reference to the Labour politicians in the Leave camp or Mr Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support for Remain.

Actually based upon your previous utterances I suppose that is a silly question.


----------



## delc (Jun 22, 2016)

Does anybody actually believe anything that is written in the Daily Mail?  Today's edition has every anti-EU cliche in the book spread over many pages!  &#128580;


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Does anybody actually believe anything that is written in the Daily Mail?  Today's edition has every anti-EU cliche in the book spread over many pages!  &#128580;
		
Click to expand...

I saw a Murdoch's Sun headline having a pop at Remain.........with an added...........also on pages 2,3,4,5,6,7 & 8.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



*Does anybody actually believe anything that is written in the Daily Mail? * Today's edition has every anti-EU cliche in the book spread over many pages!  &#63044;
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately yes they do.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and you are happy to believe all the empty promises being given by Gove and Bojo over trade.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, not a single one of them but I don't keep quoting them on here. In the event of a vote to Leave then I believe that trade with the EU will continue pretty much as it does now as it in in the interests of both sides to form a trade agreement. If the Germans decide to play hard ball over an agreement then I can see a lot more Japanese cars on the roads over the next few years as I am sure they would be more than happy to sell them to us. I don't believe all of the apocalyptic versions of events that Remain are trying to sell. 

As it happens I won't be able to vote anyway due to a last minute work trip taking me out of the country and it being too late to get a postal vote which means although I'm undecided I don't have to make up my mind either way. But in all likelihood I would have voted to Remain if I had been there to vote, I'm just not so blinkered that I will believe any old line that either side are trying to sell and think that the truth is somewhere in between.


----------



## Fish (Jun 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Is there a reason why you never make reference to the Labour politicians in the Leave camp or Mr Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support for Remain.

Actually based upon your previous utterances I suppose that is a silly question.
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't answer many questions either, especially those he wants to avoid, he just returns with another question, that's what you come to expect from yogurt knitters and people who like to walk around in white coats, clips boards and an array of different coloured ballpoint pens in their top pocket &#128540;


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

Andrew Neil on Twitter has just tweeted that the Head of German Industry has said that post-Brexit trade barriers would be "very, very fooilsh" and has urged for "trade regime to maintain levels of trade we have". So it seems not everyone in Europe is in favour of making trading difficult for the UK in the event of a Leave vote.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, not a single one of them but I don't keep quoting them on here. In the event of a vote to Leave then I believe that trade with the EU will continue pretty much as it does now as it in in the interests of both sides to form a trade agreement. If the Germans decide to play hard ball over an agreement then I can see a lot more Japanese cars on the roads over the next few years as I am sure they would be more than happy to sell them to us. I don't believe all of the apocalyptic versions of events that Remain are trying to sell. 

*As it happens I won't be able to vote anyway due to a last minute work trip taking me out of the country and it being too late to get a postal vote which means although I'm undecided* I don't have to make up my mind either way. But in all likelihood I would have voted to Remain if I had been there to vote, I'm just not so blinkered that I will believe any old line that either side are trying to sell and think that the truth is somewhere in between.
		
Click to expand...

On my polling card it says that if you find out you are unable to vote in person after 5pm on the 15th June for medical or work reasons then you can apply to vote by proxy, application must be in before 5pm on the 23rd June.  Call the helpline immediately to find out how to apply.


----------



## delc (Jun 22, 2016)

The only good thing about a vote to leave would be all those UKIP MEP's losing their seats and their fat salaries and expenses!  &#128512;


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2016)

Quick question - have people received polling cards ?


----------



## One Planer (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



			The only good thing about a vote to leave would be all those UKIP MEP's losing their seats and their fat salaries and expenses!  &#128512;
		
Click to expand...

The ONLY good thing.








Seriously?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Does anybody actually believe anything that is written in the Daily Mail?  Today's edition has every anti-EU cliche in the book spread over many pages!  &#63044;
		
Click to expand...

2nd highest circulation so apart from DoT and obviously yourself it's amazing how many don't admit to reading it.


----------



## AmandaJR (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question - have people received polling cards ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - weeks ago.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw a Murdoch's Sun headline having a pop at Remain.........with an added...........also on pages 2,3,4,5,6,7 & 8.

Click to expand...

Sun as well as the mail. Very high brow.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question - have people received polling cards ?
		
Click to expand...

Yonks back but they are not required to vote.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

It seems that Baxters Foods in Morayshire is closing its beetroot production line and moving it to Poland next year.

So that's a sad story with a number of lost jobs without us even leaving the EU.

I wonder which way that workforce will vote tomorrow


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			2nd highest circulation so apart from DoT and obviously yourself it's amazing how many don't admit to reading it.
		
Click to expand...

Circulation figures are dropping like stones for all newspapers...we all know why. Especially in Scotland.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Is there a reason why you never make reference to the Labour politicians in the Leave camp or Mr Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support for Remain.

Actually based upon your previous utterances I suppose that is a silly question.
		
Click to expand...

Because Gove and Bojo are the ones most often stuck in front of us on TV and on the radio....that's why.  I have sometimes wondered if they are the only ones that _Leave_ felt capable of really holding their own.  I can count on one hand the times I've heard IDS, Redwood, Greyling - and yes - Kate Howie, John Mann, Dennis Skinner and Frank Field.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, not a single one of them but I don't keep quoting them on here. In the event of a vote to Leave then I believe that trade with the EU will continue pretty much as it does now as it in in the interests of both sides to form a trade agreement. If the Germans decide to play hard ball over an agreement then I can see a lot more Japanese cars on the roads over the next few years as I am sure they would be more than happy to sell them to us. I don't believe all of the apocalyptic versions of events that Remain are trying to sell. 

As it happens I won't be able to vote anyway due to a last minute work trip taking me out of the country and it being too late to get a postal vote which means although I'm undecided I don't have to make up my mind either way. But in all likelihood I would have voted to Remain if I had been there to vote, I'm just not so blinkered that I will believe any old line that either side are trying to sell and think that the truth is somewhere in between.
		
Click to expand...

If you listen to the talk given by Prof Michael Dougan (link posted by HK I believe earlier) you'll hear that tariffs etc are the relatively easy bit.  It's the regulations governing goods and services we will wish to sell to the EU that will be the problem - and that will require us aligning ourselves with the EU regulatory requirements, whilst finding ourselves unable to influence them.

Which perhaps gives a clue to why 1285 leaders and bosses of UK companies signed a letter to The Times today saying we need to stay In.  Of course Brexit are able to give their counter business supporters.  JCB, Wetherspoons and a few others.  

And I note that Pasha Khandaker, president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, supports _Leave_.  And why?  Because he wants there to be an increase in non-EU immigration from the sub-continent due to the shortage of chefs coming to the UK to work in Asian restaurants, has anyone told him it's not going to happen?


----------



## Fish (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question - have people received polling cards ?
		
Click to expand...

Day before and you ask that &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

Well that's at least 1 remain not being counted &#128540;


----------



## Fish (Jun 22, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Yonks back but they are not required to vote.
		
Click to expand...

Damn &#128545;


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because Gove and Bojo are the ones most often stuck in front of us on TV and on the radio....that's why.  I have sometimes wondered if they are the only ones that _Leave_ felt capable of really holding their own.  I can count on one hand the times I've heard IDS, Redwood, Greyling - and yes - Kate Howie, John Mann, Dennis Skinner and Frank Field.
		
Click to expand...

Gisella Stuart appears to have plenty to say and Corbyn seems very  ucomfortable in being asked to lend his support to the _Remain _camp.

Unfortunately the Labour Party has been as much use as a chocolate teapot to _Remain _with many of their core voters not being aware of the party's stance.

Also they have failed to appreciate that many of those same voters have genuine concerns over immigration, those concerns do not make them racist.

 It would have been better for the campaign if the party had addressed those concerns rather than hoping to capitalise on the infighting within the Conservative party.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Labours leadership team have been all but a none entity during the whole campaign.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's the regulations governing goods and services we will wish to sell to the EU that will be the problem - and that will require us aligning ourselves with the EU regulatory requirements, whilst finding ourselves unable to influence them.
		
Click to expand...

What will be so difficult about maintaining the standards we currently have that enable to us to sell to the EU? They won't all change suddenly in the event of a Leave vote. And what requirements could the EU possibly introduce that would be so scary that not being able to influence them would be a problem?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2016)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tack-brave-vote-Leave-Great-Britain-back.html

Has anyone ever been lower throughout the whole campaign - some of the stuff she comes out with is disgusting 

Farage in front of that poster was bad enough


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tack-brave-vote-Leave-Great-Britain-back.html

Has anyone ever been lower throughout the whole campaign - some of the stuff she comes out with is disgusting 

Farage in front of that poster was bad enough
		
Click to expand...

Katie Hopkins is just there for the rant. Nobody with 1/4 of a brain cell would ever take the girl seriously.


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tack-brave-vote-Leave-Great-Britain-back.html

Has anyone ever been lower throughout the whole campaign - some of the stuff she comes out with is disgusting 

Farage in front of that poster was bad enough
		
Click to expand...

Remain it is then.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tack-brave-vote-Leave-Great-Britain-back.html

Has anyone ever been lower throughout the whole campaign - some of the stuff she comes out with is disgusting 

Farage in front of that poster was bad enough
		
Click to expand...

Looks like we have found a third daily mail reader :lol:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

According to Private Eye many Britexers secretly hope that remain win.
The reason being that they will have nothing else to winge and moan about in there dull little lives.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to Private Eye many Britexers secretly hope that remain win.
The reason being that they will have nothing else to winge and moan about in there dull little lives.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like a recent Scottish referendum.... think your post count might have gone stratospheric in support of SNP after they lost.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2016)

Hobbit, that was such an open goal. I was going for it but you beat me to the tap in &#128513;


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What will be so difficult about maintaining the standards we currently have that enable to us to sell to the EU? They won't all change suddenly in the event of a Leave vote. And what requirements could the EU possibly introduce that would be so scary that not being able to influence them would be a problem?
		
Click to expand...

But half the people who vote leave keep moaning about these regulations. Now you're saying they're no issue?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sounds like a recent Scottish referendum.... think your post count might have gone stratospheric in support of SNP after they lost.
		
Click to expand...

Just a wee correction.....SNP did not lose the referendum, it was the Yes campaign.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What will be so difficult about maintaining the standards we currently have that enable to us to sell to the EU? They won't all change suddenly in the event of a Leave vote. And what requirements could the EU possibly introduce that would be so scary that not being able to influence them would be a problem?
		
Click to expand...

Because we are leaving for ever - and so as regulations and standards change over the years and decades - if we wish to sell in to the EU then we will have to change to align with these changes - without being able to influence them.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because we are leaving for ever - and so as regulations and standards change over the years and decades - if we wish to sell in to the EU then we will have to change to align with these changes - without being able to influence them.
		
Click to expand...

You really don't like answering questions do you so I'll ask again, what requirements could the EU bring in that would be so scary that not being able to influence them will be a problem?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			But half the people who vote leave keep moaning about these regulations. Now you're saying they're no issue?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think they are. No idea why a lot of Leave voters seem to think they are such a big issue. Or indeed some Remain campaigners as SiLH has displayed in his responses that he thinks not being able to influence them will be a problem.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just a wee correction.....SNP did not lose the referendum, it was the Yes campaign.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, I forgot the SNP wanted to remain part of the Union.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because we are leaving for ever - and so as regulations and standards change over the years and decades - if we wish to sell in to the EU then we will have to change to align with these changes - without being able to influence them.
		
Click to expand...


Groundhog Day!

We can't influence the regs and standards in the US but we still manufacture and export to there.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm rather in despair this evening having listened to too many phone-ins today and this week.  Whilst there are many well enough reasoned arguments for Leaving on this here Message Board - not that I agree with them - some of the reasons I have heard being expounded by others elsewhere beggar belief.  A compete random spread of reasons - the vast majority of which will not come about because they are so complete pie-in -the-sky.  

Many of course being simply based on then belief that - no matter what turns out - no matter how difficult the economic situation - the British spirit will see us build the UK into the great country it once was - and these are the people who moan that it is _Remain_ that belittle the UK as it is today!

And then there is my Mother-in-Law - she was going to vote _Leave _because her friends Mrs T and Mrs K were voting _Leave _- no other reason.  I think my wife managed to persuade her to not vote - on the grounds that my 21yr old daughter would have voted _Remain_ tomorrow but for personal reasons preventing her - and isn't the future our young - not our old.  You most certainly wouldn't think so when you listen to many older voters - who seem simply to have their own interests and prejudices at heart.

How sad - and how worrying for tomorrow.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't think they are. No idea why a lot of Leave voters seem to think they are such a big issue. Or indeed some Remain campaigners as SiLH has displayed in his responses that he thinks not being able to influence them will be a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Have you watched the video and listened to what the Prof of European Law said?  Please don't go by what I say - I am not an expert.  Try listening to an expert.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you watched the video and listened to what the Prof of European Law said?  Please don't go by what I say - I am not an expert.  Try listening to an expert.
		
Click to expand...

So no answer then? Surprise, surprise. With your track record of avoiding answering questions maybe you should become a politician. You'd fit right in.

And no I haven't watched the video as You Tube is blocked on the vessel so I can't watch it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2016)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...survey-remain-leave-live-result-a7096316.html


----------



## MarkE (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			isn't the future our young - not our old.  You most certainly wouldn't think so when you listen to many older voters - who seem simply to have their own interests and prejudices at heart..
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should'nt vote then, if you believe the older generation of voters are incapable of looking out for the youngsters. Or do you mean just those with opposing views to yourself?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So no answer then? Surprise, surprise. With your track record of avoiding answering questions maybe you should become a politician. You'd fit right in.

And no I haven't watched the video as You Tube is blocked on the vessel so I can't watch it.
		
Click to expand...

I have said I am not an expert - why do you want me to paraphrase what a Professor of European Law will explain fully - if you will just listen to what he says.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have said I am not an expert - why do you want me to paraphrase what a Professor of European Law will explain fully - if you will just listen to what he says.
		
Click to expand...

Because throughout this thread you have continually rubbished the views of people wishing to vote Leave but are unwilling or unable to answer questions or give reasons why. I didn't ask the professor what he thought I asked you.

And as I have already said, I can't watch what he said as it is blocked by our network admin.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...survey-remain-leave-live-result-a7096316.html

Click to expand...

The Guardian, a staunch Remain supporter, has a poll with a very different result.

This whole campaign has been a disgraceful shambles by both sides. The politicians could learn a lot from the current campaign going on in Spain.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

As you don't seem to like my question how about answering Hobbit's point about how we can't influence the regulations and standards in the US but we still export successfully to there?


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 23, 2016)

Enjoyed the debate on here. Very entrenched views on both sides. Much anger on the Brexit side but I'm still not sure exactly what about when we would probably all agree (especially the demographic on this forum) that we've mostly had a good, peaceful and fairly prosperous life under successive governments of both flavours with the benefits (and pitfalls) of EU membership for over 40 years. I'm actually happy with my lot, and I'm sure deep down most of us are.

To me Brexit is promising solutions for problems that don't exist and no solution at all to the problems that do. Nobody is suggesting that the problems aren't there but exiting the EU simply won't achieve the benefits that they claim.....that is as plain as day to anyone who has looked at the facts around the big issues. It will also risk our prosperity and the longest sustained period of political stability Europe has ever seen. I particularly liked Branson's quote......the choice is Little England or Great Britain.

Farage asked us to vote with our hearts tomorrow and take pride in Britain. Sorry Nige, I'll still be proud to be British come Friday morning but I'll be voting with my head.


----------



## Snelly (Jun 23, 2016)

Voted. There was only me there at 7.15am. I expected to be queuing around the block and fighting off chugger style campaigners.....
The Poll Clerk was in leopard skin print - unusual choice I thought but she added an element of glamour to the serious business of selecting the course of our future.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 23, 2016)

Has anyone actually changed their mind over the last few months?
As soon as the referendum was announced there would have been a number who instantly made up their mind either way and will not change.
Then there will have been those who sat on the fence and have now swayed one way or the other.
But has anyone changed?
I found it very difficult to pick the truths out of the sound bites, rhetoric, self-progression and insults that have been thrown by both sides to get to a point where I'm confident one way or the other.
I posted very early in this thread of my concern that many people who are voting for the future of our country actually have no real idea what they're voting for as both sides have been fighting each other rather than giving Joe Public reasoned arguments for either stance.
Many Politicians from the same party have been fighting each other - they now have to work together...is that going to be possible?

Happy Poling Day&#128533;


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone actually changed their mind over the last few months?
As soon as the referendum was announced there would have been a number who instantly made up their mind either way and will not change.
Then there will have been those who sat on the fence and have now swayed one way or the other.
But has anyone changed?
I found it very difficult to pick the truths out of the sound bites, rhetoric, self-progression and insults that have been thrown by both sides to get to a point where I'm confident one way or the other.
I posted very early in this thread of my concern that many people who are voting for the future of our country actually have no real idea what they're voting for as both sides have been fighting each other rather than giving Joe Public reasoned arguments for either stance.
Many Politicians from the same party have been fighting each other - they now have to work together...is that going to be possible?

Happy Poling Day&#62997;
		
Click to expand...

Yes. I've gone from Out to In. There's a lot I've learned abut the EU that I like even less than back in Jan/Feb, but the political elite that are driving Out frighten me with their (almost) fascist right wing views. I may have wanted Out for valid reasons, but I don't want to be led by the far-right.

I hope the result is exceptionally close, that its an in result but that Cameron et al recognise that the electorate/country is horrendously fractured.


----------



## shewy (Jun 23, 2016)

Tbh glad it's over, whatever the result will we really see much change. To me there has been only 2 topics covered in the whole campaign, immigration by leave and economy by remain, had remain focused on immigration control it would be a landslide.


----------



## Crow (Jun 23, 2016)

Haven't read read through all of this thread but I'll be voting remain today.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 23, 2016)

Watching last nights BBC news some bloke reporter was asking people why they were going to vote the way the were. the Remain answers were, basically....I'm scared of whats over the fence. The Leavers meanwhile actually had reasons...immigration, I want to be governed by elected people, Camerons lied to us, the money we give can be used here. 

And that is the reasons the Leave people are English Lions.  We are not scared OF ANYONE !


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

I changed from voting out of the EU to now voting to stay in 

I believe this whole campaign has been a disgrace with the way some have conducted themselves - a lot of arrogance , bigotry , racism , hiding of the truth , plain lying 

Some of the stuff been said by people and on social media has disgusted me and changed my opinion about how great a nation we are 

Felt disappointed by the whole thing

One thing that has struck me is how arrogant the "English" are in regards this - they firmly believe the vote is all about them - the phrase "Little Englander" couldn't be more apt


----------



## Imurg (Jun 23, 2016)

Crow said:



			Haven't read read through all of this thread but I'll be voting remain today.
		
Click to expand...

Nick, I know it's got the makings of a reasonable day but we can't stick on a Thursday  forever......&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 23, 2016)

I also look forward in 10 years time when we have no money, are overun with immigrants, can't get to see our doctors, get into the NHS to have a vital operation etc etc....asking people which way they voted.....will they be brave enough to admit they slewed us over? No they won't.

(I told you all about Villa didn't I)


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Watching last nights BBC news some bloke reporter was asking people why they were going to vote the way the were. the Remain answers were, basically....I'm scared of whats over the fence. The Leavers meanwhile actually had reasons...immigration, I want to be governed by elected people, Camerons lied to us, the money we give can be used here. 

And that is the reasons the Leave people are English Lions.  *We are not scared OF ANYONE* !
		
Click to expand...

Apart from Europeans immigrants it would seem.....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have said I am not an expert - why do you want me to paraphrase what a Professor of European Law will explain fully - if you will just listen to what he says.
		
Click to expand...

I enjoyed the video and found it interesting however I did listen to it with half of me realising he is a well paid up consultant of the Governmet (and been bought in by both sides). I'm not sure he would want to risk losing a very well paid fee.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 23, 2016)

I voted via postal a couple of weeks ago....voted out and I hope it happens, but it wont because "people" are scared of change.

I watched a few minutes of the Jeremy Paxman EU debate last night, which was simply embarrassing.  I have a major dislike of politics and politicians.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I enjoyed the video and found it interesting however I did listen to it with half of me realising *he is a well paid up consultant of the Governmet (and been bought in by both sides)*. I'm not sure he would want to risk losing a very well paid fee.
		
Click to expand...

So you are effectively saying that if someone gets so much knowledge on a subject that they are trusted enough to be used as aa independent consultant by both sides then you can't trust their views as they are biased.  Kind of sums up the paranoid logic free mentality of some of the leave campaign to me really.  

Trust me, he will have enough work whatever happens, in fact he said in the video if we leave he will have huge amounts of work sorting the legal mess out.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2016)

So much for EU democracy. The President of the EU has openly stated that there will be no further reforms of current EU legislation although many of the leaders of country's in the EU (and the people who voted him in) have stated that reforms are required. This included the controllers of the EU, Germany and France.

And I thought that this was something that MEPs were paid to decide.

Just saying.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of sums up the paranoid logic free mentality of some of the leave campaign to me really.
		
Click to expand...

There are just as many remain voters with the same paranoid logic.  It's not exclusive.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			I voted via postal a couple of weeks ago....voted out and I hope it happens, but it wont because "people" are scared of change.

I watched a few minutes of the Jeremy Paxman EU debate last night, which was simply embarrassing.  I have a major dislike of politics and politicians.
		
Click to expand...

And just to say my reasons for remain is not because "im scared of change" 

It's another thing about the whole process that is appalling - people unable to respect people having differing reasons for voting the way they are 

There will more reasons for people voting the way they are beyond "being scared of change"


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you are effectively saying that if someone gets so much knowledge on a subject that they are trusted enough to be used as aa independent consultant by both sides then you can't trust their views as they are biased.  Kind of sums up the paranoid logic free mentality of some of the leave campaign to me really.  

Trust me, he will have enough work whatever happens, in fact he said in the video if we leave he will have huge amounts of work sorting the legal mess out.
		
Click to expand...

If you mean by both sides, leave and remain I think you are wrong. I was on about Labour and Conservative.

Anyway off to vote and then down to Woodbury.

What ever the result, good luck to both sides.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 23, 2016)

Rain, thunder and lightening might stop people from going to the polls. Surely the Govt should have foreseen this and made arrangements maybe extend the 10pm deadline.  (Wasn't this the kind of argument when people blamed the IT for not being able to cope up with the last min rush)


----------



## Fish (Jun 23, 2016)

I voted out, I was out at the start and even more out towards this day after learning how much control we have lost and where thriving British businesses are being stifled so that European countries can import more competitively, we are being stripped of our identity and just becoming another pawn in the big boys club who make up the rules for us which we must follow and can't change and we can't even vote those decision makers out, it's diabolical, OUT! 

I truly hope we come out but I feel it will be too close and we will remain, and then I expect some backlash from Brussels, they'll flex their muscles on us, especially as France & Germany are on their arses but not to worry, we'll bail everyone out until we are crippled! 

Cameron has been weak in all of this, he came back with nothing and went back on his word, Corbyn for once isn't standing by his principles, so in essence all the political leaders are looking after themselves, as usual, snouts in the trough this way........


----------



## ger147 (Jun 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So much for EU democracy. The President of the EU has openly stated that there will be no further reforms of current EU legislation although many of the leaders of country's in the EU (and the people who voted him in) have stated that reforms are required. This included the controllers of the EU, Germany and France.

And I thought that this was something that MEPs were paid to decide.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

He won't be president for much longer, and I believe for the next EU president, it's the UK's turn...


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apart from Europeans immigrants it would seem.....
		
Click to expand...

:thup:

"English Lions" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Junior (Jun 23, 2016)

I voted this morning.  I'll be glad when it's all over............ Politicians on both sides calling each other liars, the constant manipulation of statistics and scaremongering from our politicians has been embarrassing.  The campaigning may well have just been done in a playground.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 23, 2016)

Yep, voted early too, polling station next door and sunny day up here so no excuses, never been a reluctant voter before but was today, even in the booth I was struggling but out of principle of democracy and those who've died defending it I like to vote, really glad that's over, my little brain can stop hurting now, seriously had a migraine yesterday, still feel hungover from it today, have meetings all day when all I'd like to do is sleep.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2016)

I voted in. The world's getting smaller and we need to participate in greater cooperation internationally as we head into the future rather than burying our heads in the sand and, like children, blaming everyone but ourselves for our problems. 

The campaign has been an embarrassment on both sides but I'm genuinely in shock at the depths to which leave sank and how truly unprincipled their leaders are. If anyone likes boris and didn't see newsnight last night I suggest you try and find it because that guy should not be anywhere near a position of authority.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apart from Europeans immigrants it would seem.....
		
Click to expand...

Always wondered about the English lion thing. Don't get many prowling the plains of leafy Berkshire 

Maybe an English badger would be a better metaphor ?


----------



## Junior (Jun 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I voted in. The world's getting smaller and we need to participate in greater cooperation internationally as we head into the future rather than burying our heads in the sand and, like children, blaming everyone but ourselves for our problems. 

The campaign has been an embarrassment on both sides but I'm genuinely in shock at the depths to which leave sank and how truly unprincipled their leaders are. If anyone likes boris and didn't see newsnight last night I suggest you try and find it because that guy should not be anywhere near a position of authority.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly Karen it's not just Boris.  He is one of many of the old boys network, and quite a few now are simply 'career politicians' with little first hand experience of the real world.  This debate has really made me lose faith in the integrity of our leaders.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 23, 2016)

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...........

Britain pays Â£13bn into the EU ever year.
Britain gets Â£4.5bn back.

So if Britain left the EU, they would have Â£8.5bn a year (Â£23m per day) more to spend on the NHS, Armed forces, teachers, housing, pensions, wages etc.......

Still, at least we know the money we paid in wasn't wasted


[video=youtube;VBbj2WR1POA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbj2WR1POA[/video]

Where do I vote?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 23, 2016)

bobmac said:



*Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...........*

Britain pays Â£13bn into the EU ever year.
Britain gets Â£4.5bn back.

So if Britain left the EU, they would have Â£8.5bn a year (Â£23m per day) more to spend on the NHS, Armed forces, teachers, housing, pensions, wages etc.......

Still, at least we know the money we paid in wasn't wasted
		
Click to expand...

You're wrong. Not a cats chance in hell we would have that extra money, which is actually a drop in the ocean compared to the total government spend. If we vote out, you wouldn't notice a single change as a result of extra "money" coming back from the EU, largely because it would be diverted into legal costs, worsening trade deals etc etc.

The economy would suffer from a Leave vote. Even the top Leave campaigners admit that. To pretend otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 23, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You're wrong. Not a cats chance in hell we would have that extra money, which is actually a drop in the ocean compared to the total government spend. If we vote out, you wouldn't notice a single change as a result of extra "money" coming back from the EU, largely because it would be diverted into legal costs, worsening trade deals etc etc.

The economy would suffer from a Leave vote. Even the top Leave campaigners admit that. To pretend otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.
		
Click to expand...

There is no proof of a single thing you say, no one KNOWS what will happen at all....its all smoke and mirrors.

I hope we get out.  Masters of our own destiny, that's what we fought for.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 23, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You're wrong. Not a cats chance in hell we would have that extra money, which is actually a drop in the ocean compared to the total government spend. If we vote out, you wouldn't notice a single change as a result of extra "money" coming back from the EU, largely because it would be diverted into legal costs, worsening trade deals etc etc.

The economy would suffer from a Leave vote. Even the top Leave campaigners admit that. To pretend otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.
		
Click to expand...

And the money that is wasted?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2016)

Hopefully they'll be giving some extra time to those that can't get to their polling station today, due to current foul weather, to cast their vote.. After all they awarded some extra time to those that left it to the very last minute to register to vote...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So much for EU democracy. The President of the EU has openly stated that there will be no further reforms of current EU legislation although many of the leaders of country's in the EU (and the people who voted him in) have stated that reforms are required. This included the controllers of the EU, Germany and France.

And I thought that this was something that MEPs were paid to decide.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

Did you actually listen to what Juncker said.

He said 'no more renegotiation - out is out'. Don't forget that this referendum is actually only advisory. Juncker knows that, so when he says 'no more renegotiation - out is out' what he is saying is that if we vote to Leave then don't think you can then come to us and 'try it on', using the mandate of a referendum Leave result as a leverage for renegotiating further changes. 

Oh I know Leave will spin this to mean 'no more renegotiation ever' but Leave are a disingenuous and duplicitous lot, The Leave motto might well have been... 'If it sounds like it could be true - then that will do'

And so it has come to pass - Leave spinning a statement into something it's not.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 23, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You're wrong. Not a cats chance in hell we would have that extra money, which is actually a drop in the ocean compared to the total government spend. If we vote out, you wouldn't notice a single change as a result of extra "money" coming back from the EU, largely because it would be diverted into legal costs, worsening trade deals etc etc.

The economy would suffer from a Leave vote. Even the top Leave campaigners admit that. To pretend otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.
		
Click to expand...

And just for arguments sake accepting the Â£23m a day figure and turning it on it's head.  That's 30p a day each of us pays for the benefits of being in the EU and a single market.  Not a lot is it...less than the price of my _i_ newspaper or a bag of crisps every two days.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 23, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There is no proof of a single thing you say, no one KNOWS what will happen at all....its all smoke and mirrors.

I hope we get out.  Masters of our own destiny, that's what we fought for.
		
Click to expand...

Masters of our own destiny except that the financial markets determine our fiscal and monetary policy and our new trading partners determine what we have to do (give away) to partner with them.  'Take back control' - just another way of saying 'there's them and there's us'.  And so on 'control' and 'sovereignty' Leave have presented us with a chimera.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 23, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There is no proof of a single thing you say, no one KNOWS what will happen at all....its all smoke and mirrors.

I hope we get out.  Masters of our own destiny, that's what we fought for.
		
Click to expand...

Tell you what though - it's a hell of a lot easier to predict where you are going to be if you know where you are starting from and have a reasonable understanding of uncertainties going forward.  Today we know that, but if we vote Leave then tomorrow we will know neither.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...........

Britain pays Â£13bn into the EU ever year.
Britain gets Â£4.5bn back.

So if Britain left the EU, they would have Â£8.5bn a year (Â£23m per day) more to spend on the *NHS, Armed forces, teachers, housing, pensions, wages etc.......*

Still, at least we know the money we paid in wasn't wasted


[video=youtube;VBbj2WR1POA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbj2WR1POA[/video]

Where do I vote?
		
Click to expand...

I suspect we would be spending a lot of that money on sorting out our legal system, propping up the economy if any of the forecasts by the independent economic forecasters are to be believed and many other agreements and benefits that we get as being part of the EU, should we vote to leave.  Whilst the argument people always use of 'if we didn't do that we could use the money to do this' sounds persuasive, in reality I am sure it is not that easy and there is not a big pot of money that will go the the NHS if it does not go to teaching for example.  I do agree that there will be potentially more money available, but to me that is ignoring the value of being in the EU and the cost of regaining that 'value'.  Kind of like the saying 'the price of everything but the value of nothing'.

But I do agree the Strasbourg thing is ridiculous and is something that should be reformed.  Perhaps naively I hope that if we do vote to remain the the EU will look at how close they have come to losing one of the 3 major players in the EU and start some genuine reforms and get rid of silly practices like this.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

I'll tell you one thing, depending on which way the vote goes, either SILH or SocketRocket will wake up tomorrow knowing that they have wasted a hell of a lot of key strokes and time posting in this thread, just to be on the wrong side of history.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you actually listen to what Juncker said.
		
Click to expand...


I can't speak for Old Skier but I'd prefer not to listen to someone who speaks in the manner he does... ie Gun against the head take it or leave it...

And, what is a supposed leftie like yourself doing listening to someone who [allegedly] is happy to help folk with tax avoidance...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2016)

Junior said:



			Sadly Karen it's not just Boris.  He is one of many of the old boys network, and quite a few now are simply 'career politicians' with little first hand experience of the real world.  This debate has really made me lose faith in the integrity of our leaders.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed but the report focussed on boris and even I was taken aback by just how brazen he was.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 23, 2016)

Remain. Now then everyone if we vote to leave the EU we will probably go into  a recession.

*Er just what have we had for the last 5 years whilst we have been in, golden money showers????????*

I've just a had my first pay rise in 5 years 1.5%. Greece are in a mess and the EU is pumping money in there as fast as it can. Spain and Portugal are not far behind. Just why the hell are we propping up lazy useless countries?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Where's George Osbourne gone since his suggestion of a bullying budget? He's all but disappeared since 57 Conservative MP's have told him they would vote against it. Dead man walking??


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Where's George Osbourne gone since his suggestion of a bullying budget? He's all but disappeared since 57 Conservative MP's have told him they would vote against it. Dead man walking??
		
Click to expand...

I suspect it is similar to the Gove effect at the last election.  In that he is not liked by a vast majority of the electorate, who may possibly vote the opposite of whatever he says, just because it is George Osborne. That is why Gove was removed from his position of secretary of state for education and was very rarely used in the last election campaign.  Basically he was electoral poison. 

 And if I was very paranoid I could argue Gove is getting his revenge on Cameron now by doing what he is doing.  But I appreciate that takes me into the realms of paranoia so I do not endorse that suggestion.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect it is similar to the Gove effect at the last election.  In that he is not liked by a vast majority of the electorate, who may possibly vote the opposite of whatever he says, just because it is George Osborne. That is why Gove was removed from his position of secretary of state for education and was very rarely used in the last election campaign.  Basically he was electoral poison. 

 And if I was very paranoid I could argue Gove is getting his revenge on Cameron now by doing what he is doing.  But I appreciate that takes me into the realms of paranoia so I do not endorse that suggestion.
		
Click to expand...

He's behind you!


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll tell you one thing, depending on which way the vote goes, either SILH or SocketRocket will wake up tomorrow knowing that they have wasted a hell of a lot of key strokes and time posting in this thread, just to be on the wrong side of history. 

Click to expand...

And be able to say "told you so"


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2016)

Top 3 performers for the Remain campaign.

Nigel Farage [by a long way]
Michael Gove
Boris Johnson

Notice that the leavers kept IDS locked up in a box.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

When the campaign started I was in favour of Remain but by the end of the campaign I was undecided and if I had been able to vote would have made my mind up on the way to the polling station. Now I am almost hoping for a vote to Leave. Can you imagine just how smug Cameron will look tomorrow if the vote is to Remain. It's almost worth knackering the economy just so we don't have to see that. I wonder if the Queen will be "purring" tomorrow when he phones to tell her the result?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Agreed but the report focussed on boris and even I was taken aback by just how brazen he was.
		
Click to expand...


Boris is much loved in the ConClubs up and down our land... Many of the membership being very unhappy with the perceived step left Cameron has taken their party... Dangerous times ahead for us, irrespective of today's outcome... 

Having said that BJ started out well as London's Mayor but then took his eye off the ball [as Ken did before] and then it all went rapidly down hill...


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Leave are a disingenuous and duplicitous lot, The Leave motto might well have been... 'If it sounds like it could be true - then that will do'

And so it has come to pass - Leave spinning a statement into something it's not.
		
Click to expand...

Oh and the Remain campaigners are whiter than white?

I really am getting fed up with the same old crap you keep regurgitating on this thread, roll on tomorrow when it's all over


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Oh and the Remain campaigners are whiter than white?

I really am getting fed up with the same old crap you keep regurgitating on this thread, roll on tomorrow when it's all over  

Click to expand...

Ah but then the repercussions will begin! Shall we keep this thread or start a new one for that?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ah but then the repercussions will begin! Shall we keep this thread or start a new one for that?
		
Click to expand...

Good idea, we can call it 'Haha I told you so'


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Oh and the Remain campaigners are whiter than white?

I really am getting fed up with the same old crap you keep regurgitating on this thread, roll on tomorrow when it's all over  

Click to expand...

To be fair, David Cameron didn't say there's be world war 3, nor did he lie about Turkey, nor did George Osbourne threaten a bully budget or... and this is the same David Cameron that reneged on the Scottish referendum promises... blinkered 'R' us!!!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			He's behind you!
		
Click to expand...

No he's not, the little people in the trees are watching out for him and they speak to me when he's near.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Boris is much loved in the ConClubs up and down our land... *Many of the membership being very unhappy with the perceived step left Cameron has taken their party.*.. Dangerous times ahead for us, irrespective of today's outcome... 

Having said that BJ started out well as London's Mayor but then took his eye off the ball [as Ken did before] and then it all went rapidly down hill...
		
Click to expand...

Jesus, if Cameron is being seen as being too 'left' then god help us, we may be nearer careering into an US style of 'extreme politics' than we realise.  So worst case scenario is that we vote to leave, Cameron the lefty goes and in comes Gove.  And then the very right wing government will start redrafting all the laws without the 'hindrance' of the EU.


----------



## drdel (Jun 23, 2016)

Statistically with two choices and with no 'real' data on which a choice can be made its like tossing a coin so the chances are with a population voting in the millions it was always going to be close to 50:50, e.g. pretty random!


----------



## Imurg (Jun 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ah but then the repercussions will begin! Shall we keep this thread or start a new one for that?
		
Click to expand...

To be fair Kaz, you can if you want but I'm going to be nowhere near it..
Too much antagonism, vitriol and down-right nastiness all the way through from both sides and a complete failure by many to respect others interpretations and views.
Tomorrow, it isnt going to be dirty turning the TV on..&#128549;


----------



## vkurup (Jun 23, 2016)

Will this 'referendum' be actually won on the playing field of Eton as against by Joe public?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jesus, if Cameron is being seen as being too 'left' then god help us, we may be nearer careering into an US style of 'extreme politics' than we realise.  So worst case scenario is that we vote to leave, Cameron the lefty goes and in comes Gove.  And then the very right wing government will start redrafting all the laws without the 'hindrance' of the EU.
		
Click to expand...


Half the problem is, that there is no one truly representing the left...
Thought Jezza was going to fit the bill... But, thus far, has failed to deliver...
When his 2IC comes out with something along the lines of... 
We might have to start listening to those we are supposed to be representing...
Is of real concern to me...

The right wing, business serving politicians, will be in charge [sadly] for many years to come...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...****-wanted-in-the-first-place-20160623109722

Warning, the occasional rude word in it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/racist-nan-definitely-going-to-bother-20160623109718


----------



## Region3 (Jun 23, 2016)

drdel said:



			Statistically with two choices and with no 'real' data on which a choice can be made its like tossing a coin so the chances are with a population voting in the millions it was always going to be close to 50:50, e.g. pretty random!
		
Click to expand...

If the bookies have any idea at all then it's all over bar the shouting.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Region3 said:



			If the bookies have any idea at all then it's all over bar the shouting.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, didn't realise what the odds were until I just looked on Betfair after your post.  11 to 2 for leaving, 8 to 1 on for staying.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Also interesting to see where they think the most leave voters will come from.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

A very harrowing image of people exercising their democratic rights in a 'leafy London suburb' (are there any other types of London suburbs, treey, grassy, dog &%^%y?) here.  Be careful, it may shock you.  

And damn you Londoners, disrupting the democratic process by voting, shame on you, shame!!!!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Wow, didn't realise what the odds were until I just looked on Betfair after your post.  11 to 2 for leaving, 8 to 1 on for staying.
		
Click to expand...

Leave has now come in to 4 to 1 and stay has gone out to 6 to 1 on. Is it worth a quick flutter on leave, so if we do make the most monumentally stupid decision of our lifetime, at least I would have made a few quid?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			A very harrowing image of people exercising their democratic rights in a 'leafy London suburb' (are there any other types of London suburbs, treey, grassy, dog &%^%y?) here.  Be careful, it may shock you.  

And damn you Londoners, disrupting the democratic process by voting, shame on you, shame!!!!

View attachment 19837

Click to expand...

Scotland and London working together to defeat Middle England...........words fail me.

Love Mathew Elliot ..chief executive [of what] use of the word 'us'.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

What happens if it's a draw with 50% voting for each option? Is it extra time and then penalties?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			A very harrowing image of people exercising their democratic rights in a 'leafy London suburb' (are there any other types of London suburbs, treey, grassy, dog &%^%y?)
		
Click to expand...

More importantly, what does a "leafy" London suburb get called in the winter when all the leaves have fallen off the trees?


----------



## Imurg (Jun 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What happens if it's a draw with 50% voting for each option? Is it extra time and then penalties?
		
Click to expand...

Boris and Dave, stripped to the waist, slugging it out - last man standing....

Works for me&#128077;


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			More importantly, what does a "leafy" London suburb get called in the winter when all the leaves have fallen off the trees?
		
Click to expand...

A London suburb?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Boris and Dave, stripped to the waist, slugging it out - last man standing....

Works for me&#128077;
		
Click to expand...

That's fine with me. Any chance we could throw in Farage as well and maybe half a dozen hungry tigers? As long as it doesn't go to a replay and we have to do it all over again in a couple of weeks time.


----------



## drdel (Jun 23, 2016)

I think technically this is termed an "Advisory" vote - I guess nowt much will change then.


----------



## Fish (Jun 23, 2016)

We really don't know what's being discussed and being mapped out for us and this is just too damn scary to contemplate, talk about poking the bear!

http://www.infowars.com/proposed-eu-army-hidden-from-british-voters-until-after-brexit/


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			We really don't know what's being discussed and being mapped out for us and this is just too damn scary to contemplate, talk about poking the bear!http://www.infowars.com/proposed-eu-army-hidden-from-british-voters-until-after-brexit/

Click to expand...

Didn't Cameron explicitly rule out any notion of an EU army as part of the referendum campaign? I can't believe that even he would be so arrogant as to think that if he wins the vote he can go back on that and sign up to having one without facing one hell of a backlash.


----------



## Fish (Jun 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Didn't Cameron explicitly rule out any notion of an EU army as part of the referendum campaign? I can't believe that even he would be so arrogant as to think that if he wins the vote he can go back on that and sign up to having one without facing one hell of a backlash.
		
Click to expand...

He can explicitly promise anything to us, if Brussels wants it they'll do it and get it, were just pishing in the wind!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Didn't Cameron explicitly rule out any notion of an EU army as part of the referendum campaign? I can't believe that even he would be so arrogant as to think that if he wins the vote he can go back on that and sign up to having one without facing one hell of a backlash.
		
Click to expand...

The EU have no control over our army or indeed Armed Forces - the story has been dismissed as total nonsense

The Queen at the end of the day has overall control of the Armed Forces and this story is one of biggest amongst all the whoppers been said by either side


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			We really don't know what's being discussed and being mapped out for us and this is just too damn scary to contemplate, talk about poking the bear!

http://www.infowars.com/proposed-eu-army-hidden-from-british-voters-until-after-brexit/

Click to expand...

With the best will in the world, this was on the web site of an US Trump supporting conspiracy theorist who according to Wikipedia has accused the US government of being involved in the Oklahoma bombing, the September 11th attacks and faking the moon landings.  And when he makes Piers Morgan seem the sane one you kind of get an idea of who you are dealing with.

[video=youtube_share;ror9v2LwHoY]https://youtu.be/ror9v2LwHoY[/video]

I know poo pooing experts seems to be the done thing nowadays, so could I possibly suggest calling this person an expert and taking him at all seriously is like calling me a tour golfer, and this person is just a right wing conspiracy fantasist?  Or may be even a dangerous whack job.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 23, 2016)

Clearly they are not all locked up!


----------



## Lump (Jun 23, 2016)

looks like Turkey is about to start the ball rolling on joining the EU come the 30th of this month.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

Lump said:



			looks like Turkey is about to start the ball rolling on joining the EU come the 30th of this month.
		
Click to expand...

They started the ball rolling a long time ago and are still nowhere near being able to join 

https://fullfact.org/europe/turkey-likely-join-eu/

It's going to be a long time before they are able to join


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2016)

Lump said:



			looks like Turkey is about to start the ball rolling on joining the EU come the 30th of this month.
		
Click to expand...

I thought they had been trying to do this for ages but had certain criteria to meet of which they've achieved very few.


----------



## Lump (Jun 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They started the ball rolling a long time ago and are still nowhere near being able to join 

https://fullfact.org/europe/turkey-likely-join-eu/

It's going to be a long time before they are able to join
		
Click to expand...




HomerJSimpson said:



			I thought they had been trying to do this for ages but had certain criteria to meet of which they've achieved very few.
		
Click to expand...

They start the critical and key part of the bid (the finances) come the 30th.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Clearly they are not all locked up!
		
Click to expand...

and this is the problem.  Most people in the UK can see the guys is nuts, but look at the comments on you tube from US citizens and people like him are essentially the reason Trump is being taken seriously as a leader of one of the worlds super powers as he spews out this kind of crap on a daily basis.


----------



## full_throttle (Jun 23, 2016)

just home from the club, the concert room is being utilised as a polling station, word is the turn out is high in comparison to normal elections


----------



## bladeplayer (Jun 23, 2016)

For some reason I watched a bit of it on BBC the other night , 
I don't envy the undecided learning much fro the debate , 

One side say we will be better off OUT but couldn't really prove it , 
other side were pushing negative scary stuff rather than positive definite reasons to stay ..



Good Luck to ye all no mater what the result I hope whatever is ahead turns out to be for the best 


At a guess id say it will be a STAY I don't think the GO did enough to convince the undecided 

Just guessing tho


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you actually listen to what Juncker said.

He said 'no more renegotiation - out is out'. Don't forget that this referendum is actually only advisory. Juncker knows that, so when he says 'no more renegotiation - out is out' what he is saying is that if we vote to Leave then don't think you can then come to us and 'try it on', using the mandate of a referendum Leave result as a leverage for renegotiating further changes. 

Oh I know Leave will spin this to mean 'no more renegotiation ever' but Leave are a disingenuous and duplicitous lot, The Leave motto might well have been... 'If it sounds like it could be true - then that will do'

And so it has come to pass - Leave spinning a statement into something it's not.
		
Click to expand...

You have read the wrong article, let's leave it at that. Your obviously blinded by your own hypocrisy and I seem to remember you have yet to answer one question that was asked of you.  Never mind now it's all over.


----------



## Fish (Jun 23, 2016)

I am told by many people that are voting to remain that they are frightened to stand alone in this big world, I would like to remind them of some recent history. 

We joined the European community in 1973, 12 years later we found ourselves standing alone against Argentina, nobody, including our so-called friends in Europe came to help, in-fact, everyone turned their back on us, hundreds of our brave men were killed and injured, many by EXOCET missiles at the time being manufactured and sold to Argentina by the French Government! 

Nuff said!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			I am told by many people that are voting to remain that they are frightened to stand alone in this big world, I would like to remind them of some recent history. 

We joined the European community in 1973, 12 years later we found ourselves standing alone against Argentina, nobody, including our so-called friends in Europe came to help, in-fact, everyone turned their back on us, hundreds of our brave men were killed and injured, many by EXOCET missiles at the time being manufactured and sold to Argentina by the French Government! 

Nuff said!
		
Click to expand...

*The European Community, of which the United Kingdom is a member, fully supported the UK's position and opposed the invasion of the Falklands, the community also supported the United Nations Resolution requesting that Argentina withdraw from the islands. When Argentina refused, the community announced sanctions against Argentina. Today, the present European Union recognises the UK's sovereignty as the only legitimate claim and this is recognised in the Treaty of Lisbon, with all member states (apart from Spain which is Neutral), individually recognising it.

French involvement	
The President of France, FranÃ§ois Mitterrand, gave full support to the UK in the Falklands war. Sir John Nott, who was Secretary of State for Defence during the conflict, has acknowledged in his memoirs that "in so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies".

 large part of Argentina's military equipment was French-made, so French support was crucial. Sir John has revealed that France provided Mirage and Etendard aircraft, identical to the ones that the country had supplied to Argentina, for British pilots to train against. It is also disclosed in Sir John's memoirs that France provided intelligence to help fight the Exocet missiles that she had sold to Argentina, including details of special electronic countermeasures that at the time were only known to the French armed forces. In her memoirs, Margaret Thatcher says of Mitterrand that "I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support...throughout the Falklands Crisis". As France had recently sold Super Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles to the Argentine Navy, there was still a French team in Argentina helping to fit out the Exocets and aircraft for Argentine use at the beginning of the war. Argentina claims that the team left for France soon after the 2 April invasion, but according to Dr. James Corum, the French team apparently continued to assist the Argentines throughout the war in spite of the NATO embargo and official French government policy.*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_Falklands_War


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The European Community, of which the United Kingdom is a member, fully supported the UK's position and opposed the invasion of the Falklands, the community also supported the United Nations Resolution requesting that Argentina withdraw from the islands. When Argentina refused, the community announced sanctions against Argentina. Today, the present European Union recognises the UK's sovereignty as the only legitimate claim and this is recognised in the Treaty of Lisbon, with all member states (apart from Spain which is Neutral), individually recognising it.

French involvement    
The President of France, FranÃ§ois Mitterrand, gave full support to the UK in the Falklands war. Sir John Nott, who was Secretary of State for Defence during the conflict, has acknowledged in his memoirs that "in so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies".

 large part of Argentina's military equipment was French-made, so French support was crucial. Sir John has revealed that France provided Mirage and Etendard aircraft, identical to the ones that the country had supplied to Argentina, for British pilots to train against. It is also disclosed in Sir John's memoirs that France provided intelligence to help fight the Exocet missiles that she had sold to Argentina, including details of special electronic countermeasures that at the time were only known to the French armed forces. In her memoirs, Margaret Thatcher says of Mitterrand that "I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support...throughout the Falklands Crisis". As France had recently sold Super Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles to the Argentine Navy, there was still a French team in Argentina helping to fit out the Exocets and aircraft for Argentine use at the beginning of the war. Argentina claims that the team left for France soon after the 2 April invasion, but according to Dr. James Corum, the French team apparently continued to assist the Argentines throughout the war in spite of the NATO embargo and official French government policy.*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_Falklands_War

Click to expand...

Remind me what Spain's stance was?????


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Remind me what Spain's stance was?????
		
Click to expand...

Operation Algeciras ? 

But the point the initial post attempting to connect The EU and Referendum to the Falklands War is typical of the sort of stuff that has be regurgitated all over social media - same with the EU army and countless over social media campaign attempting to discredit the EU and attempting to connect them with anything people think will stir up the masses.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			I am told by many people that are voting to remain that they are frightened to stand alone in this big world, I would like to remind them of some recent history. 

We joined the European community in 1973, 12 years later we found ourselves standing alone against Argentina, nobody, including our so-called friends in Europe came to help, in-fact, everyone turned their back on us, hundreds of our brave men were killed and injured, many by EXOCET missiles at the time being manufactured and sold to Argentina by the French Government! 

Nuff said!
		
Click to expand...

Jingoistic rubbish.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Operation Algeciras ? 

But the point the initial post attempting to connect The EU and Referendum to the Falklands War is typical of the sort of stuff that has be regurgitated all over social media - same with the EU army and countless over social media campaign attempting to discredit the EU and attempting to connect them with anything people think will stir up the masses.
		
Click to expand...

That'll be the flukey arrest by the Spanish police. And then under orders from the Dept of interior they were flown out of the country without being put on trial. I also remember how Spain supported Argentina's position, arguing for Gib to be returned to Spanish rule.

And to your original point that the EU fully supported the UK's position, Denmark and Ireland didn't. Accuracy Phil, accuracy.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

At what point do we bring up the Spanish Armada as a reason to not be in the EU? The 100 years war??

I saw an excellent piece on twitter that said one reason why there is a bit of an age split on the vote is that older people tend to look back whilst younger people tend to look forwards.  And I think there is an element of truth in that.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That'll be the flukey arrest by the Spanish police. And then under orders from the Dept of interior they were flown out of the country without being put on trial. I also remember how Spain supported Argentina's position, arguing for Gib to be returned to Spanish rule.

And to your original point that the EU fully supported the UK's position, Denmark and Ireland didn't. Accuracy Phil, accuracy.
		
Click to expand...

That was taken directly from the article about events leading up to the war which seemed to suggest that all "didn't turn their backs against us" 

And seen Spain recently denied Argentina the pact to go against UK in regards both Gib and Falklands and indeed embaressed Argentina

Spain have wanted Gib rule for years but didn't invade Gib to attempt to force rule 

Spain also at the time just joined NATO hence the quiet return of the Argentinians back as they didn't want to cause a diplomatic scene. 

But that IMO is all irrelevant to the current EU referendum


----------



## Thorntree178 (Jun 23, 2016)

I voted out, just based on the fact there is rubbish getting put out willy nilly days before and days after collection. People are moving into any space whatsoever regardless of it is allowed. Also, there are used nappies hanging off walls, and scattered across flat roofs, near where I live. I am not racist...I just don't want to live in a ghetto, but it looks like all is lost.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Thorntree178 said:



			I voted out, just based on the fact there is rubbish getting put out willy nilly days before and days after collection. People are moving into any space whatsoever regardless of it is allowed. Also, there are used nappies hanging off walls, and scattered across flat roofs, near where I live. I am not racist...I just don't want to live in a ghetto, but it looks like all is lost.
		
Click to expand...

I'm probably going to regret this but why, using some facts and not Daily Express headlines if possible, is this the EUs fault?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm probably going to regret this but why, using some facts and not Daily Express headlines if possible, is this the EUs fault?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 19841

Click to expand...

Actually that's a fair point, I'm not that bothered on why it's the EU's fault there are nappies hanging off walls, I'll just take it as fact and move on. But unfortunately I've already voted so this startling new revelation has not influenced my vote.


----------



## Thorntree178 (Jun 23, 2016)

The people they put into the flats and houses cannot read English 9or they can and they laugh it off), so they don't know what to do with their rubbish, other than to throw it out front or back for the fairies to sort out. I dunno if thats the EU's fault, but maybe it is.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Thorntree178 said:



			The people they put into the flats and houses cannot read English, so they don't know what to do with their rubbish, other than to throw it out front or back for the fairies to sort out. I dunno if thats the EU's fault, but maybe it is.
		
Click to expand...

You do make a compelling case for voting out but as I've already said, polls have closed now. If only you'd of posted earlier who knows how that would have influenced the vote of many forum posters.


----------



## Thorntree178 (Jun 23, 2016)

I doubt it would, they probably don't live near me. Dismal is not the word for it, anymore. The place stinks and the drains are full of used takeaway oil. The only shining light is the fact I could one day move to Latvia.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2016)

Slowly shakes head.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/were-calling-it/


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

They could have just tweeted, 'Please don't sack us, please!!!!!'


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2016)

Thorntree178 said:



			I doubt it would, they probably don't live near me. Dismal is not the word for it, anymore. The place stinks and the drains are full of used takeaway oil. *The only shining light is the fact I could one day move to Latvia.*

Click to expand...

Well every cloud and all that, you can get away from the nappy throwing EU bureaucrats and I hear Riga is lovely.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2016)

Thorntree178 said:



			The people they put into the flats and houses cannot read English 9or they can and they laugh it off), so they don't know what to do with their rubbish, other than to throw it out front or back for the fairies to sort out. I dunno if thats the EU's fault, but maybe it is.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## MarkE (Jun 23, 2016)

Well it looks from the polls ,Remain have it in the bag. Seems that as in the scottish referendum, the fear pedaled by Cameron et al has had the desired effect again. But at least we've had a democratic say, something we'll never get from here on in with the eu.


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 23, 2016)

Cameron's already writing his victory speech for tomorrow morning on the theme of Brussels Votes for Brussels Laws.


----------



## Fish (Jun 24, 2016)

Never trust the Geordies :smirk:

If that is an indicator of how slim the margins will be (2k), then how can any political party unite this country again with it so split?

The postal votes apparently will be key with an estimated 9 million of them and it's believed they heavily sway to Leave.


----------



## Fish (Jun 24, 2016)

Wow, what a result in Sunderland, that removed the remains lead of nearly 29k in a single hit


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

Wined up, starting to believe. probably won't last out much longer, crossing everything.  Well done Sunderland. 

Just what the hell are Gibralter doing with a vote???????????????????


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

THat idiot woman form Labour is on again. You go girl, you were useless in the debate and made of wood.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

70 - 30
80- 20 
to leave !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in Warwickshire !!!!!!!!!!!

All leaders can clear (pc'd) off


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

If London vote to stay they can. We will form a new England without them.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

It strikes me that the country is massively split. This could mean trouble.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

just me, and my bottle od Rawsley Estate that cares then.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

David Davis whacked on Â£200 on leave to win


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland have listen to scarey woman and voting to stay. What sort of a nation have you let yourselves to become?


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland......CUT THEM LOOSE.....you are a disgrace !!! Led by a woman!!! Where are the men with doodahhs?


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2016)

I predict an uncomfortable summer. Not a surprise to see nationalist/unionist split in northern Ireland.


----------



## Slab (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			It strikes me that the country is massively split. This could mean trouble.
		
Click to expand...

Which country is split? 

Seems more like different countries voting opposite ways & the union is split


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2016)

Woke up for a slash and had a quick nosey at sky news, they're predicting Out to win with 51.4%.
Didn't think Out stood a chance to be fair so I'm hugely surprised. 
PM was probably finished before today but it's definitely curtains for him now.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh dear what have we done...

Glad to see that the SNP has started dropping hints on 'having consequences'.... Goodbye and good luck Scotland.

David Cameron is finished. Can we get those who lead the Leave to now step up and lead the country They should deliver on their promises rather than go scotfeee


----------



## Slab (Jun 24, 2016)

You guys knew that you couldn't turn round afterwards and say _"nah I was only joshing, its fine to stay"_ right!


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

I could not be more ashamed of my country right now. This has devastated me.


----------



## Cherry13 (Jun 24, 2016)

im stunned. Wonder if I can find a home in Scotland soon.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I could not be more ashamed of my country right now. This has devastated me.
		
Click to expand...

I am reminded of the Chinese curse, 'May you live in interesting times'.

30 year low for the pound is brilliant for the Scottish tourism business though


----------



## Imurg (Jun 24, 2016)

And still we have insults, actual or implied, flying around.
Garage saying it's a victory for decent people - implying that virtually half of the UK isn't...
Gas saying it's a devastating day for the UK - implying that everyone who voted Out is a idiot...

Just get one with it, start talking, accept the will of the people and stop whining!

The World, as the UK knows it, will not end today.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh dear - pound already dropping , markets being affected - let's hope all those financial experts are wrong 

The younger people in the country voting to stay - older people ( 60 upwards ) voting to leave. The nation totally split in half. Some people will be celebrating - let's hope they wait until all those promises are delivered because they need to deliver now


----------



## Slab (Jun 24, 2016)

Anyone got a link to download the application form Scotland needs to join the EU


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

(Copied from twitter).

I can't believe the above.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

(Copied from twitter).

I can't believe the above.
		
Click to expand...

Cut pension payments then .... In tough times tough measures. 
Amazing how the pound had just gone through the floor killing savings and imports.


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

(Copied from twitter).

I can't believe the above.
		
Click to expand...

Why not?
Obviously older people have a lot more sense &#128513;


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

(Copied from twitter).

I can't believe the above.
		
Click to expand...

How can that be accurate when voting was anonymous? Bit like the polls that said Remain would win, or the Tories would lose the last election.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

Private exit polls I believe Hobbit


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Private exit polls I believe Hobbit
		
Click to expand...

All my FB friends of a similar age, 50+, are all Remain...


----------



## Imurg (Jun 24, 2016)

Although I voted Leave, I think this result is not definitive enough to change the status quo...
1.2 million difference - we are a deeply divided Country


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

It's started already.
The separatists are talking about an 18 month lead in to the two year exit.
That will be probably be four years of uncertainty and falling sterling, we are doomed a tell ya doomed.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			All my FB friends of a similar age, 50+, are all Remain...
		
Click to expand...

My facebook is full of people ages 50 and below - all voting remain and posting this morning the general feeling that they believe their parents/grandparents have voted on a future that the younger people will have to deal with the consequences ( which ever way they go ) - the odd older generation people i have on my Facebook are all sat celebrating 

Reading through the status updates it seems its a common theme.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's started already.
The separatists are talking about an 18 month lead in to the two year exit.
That will be probably be four years of uncertainty and falling sterling, we are doomed a tell ya doomed.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just thankful I bought my holiday euro's earlier in the week.
My kids, on the other hand..........
:angry:


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh dear - pound already dropping , markets being affected - let's hope all those financial experts are wrong 

The younger people in the country voting to stay - older people ( 60 upwards ) voting to leave. The nation totally split in half. Some people will be celebrating - let's hope they wait until all those promises are delivered because they need to deliver now
		
Click to expand...

There's nothing to celebrate today Phil no matter what side you are on. Nobody knows what this means for Britain, we have just taken a massive gamble with our futures.

Frankly I find it staggering that a population who don't understand the implications of what they are voting for should be allowed to vote on things as massive as this. They tell me it's called democracy but lunacy seems more appropriate. I hope all those who voted out get what they wanted, if indeed the knew what that was in the first place


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 24, 2016)

Tis a day for clear heads, clear thinking and not a day for knee jerk reactions. The markets will settle, people will get used to the idea and negotiations will start.

It will take at least a couple of years to sort out, nothing is going to change overnight despite Piers Morgan trying to talk us into a recession already.

Interestingly, returning to British politics, where does this vote leave UKIP ? Who are now a party without a cause.

We live in interesting times


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My facebook is full of people ages 50 and below - all voting remain and posting this morning the general feeling that they believe their parents/grandparents have voted on a future that the younger people will have to deal with the consequences ( which ever way they go ) - the odd older generation people i have on my Facebook are all sat celebrating 

Reading through the status updates it seems its a common theme.
		
Click to expand...

Its bizarre. The majority of northeast England friends, irrespective of age, are celebrating.

Looking at it another way, there's more young people than old people - old age tends to lead on to death. So how come the young people lost? Why blame an age group if they are a minority in terms of numbers?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			I'm just thankful I bought my holiday euro's earlier in the week.
My kids, on the other hand..........
:angry:
		
Click to expand...

I bought a significant sum a few weeks back, and if I sold on this morning's exchange rate its a massive profit. It feels like dirty money though.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 24, 2016)

Half of the idiots on YouTube demanding "out out out" in their St George t-shirts and stoked up by a few pints of Stella.
Still, at least it's nice to know that they will be representing the country when they do venture abroad.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Tis a day for clear heads, clear thinking and not a day for knee jerk reactions. The markets will settle, people will get used to the idea and negotiations will start.

It will take at least a couple of years to sort out, nothing is going to change overnight despite Piers Morgan trying to talk us into a recession already.

Interestingly, returning to British politics, where does this vote leave UKIP ? Who are now a party without a cause.

We live in interesting times
		
Click to expand...

Wise words and some would you have believe the dark ages cometh. Of course there will be challenges, in my case dealing with our EU workforce and future recruitment requirements and demand but these are issues for another day. Personally I think we'll negotiate some kind of associated (fudged in some eyes) membership, especially now a host of others now want a referendum too


----------



## MarkA (Jun 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its bizarre. The majority of northeast England friends, irrespective of age, are celebrating.

Looking at it another way, there's more young people than old people - old age tends to lead on to death. So how come the young people lost? Why blame an age group if they are a minority in terms of numbers?
		
Click to expand...

You might want to check your information 
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....mid-2014/sty-ageing-of-the-uk-population.html
 We are getting older as a nation - the wrinkles rule!


----------



## MarkE (Jun 24, 2016)

Pinch me. I've dreamt of this for decades. Proud of the country ignoring all the fear. Now if Scotland can just be on their way that'll be another huge drain on the coffers removed.:clap::thup:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

When I left to come to work this morning my 10 year old daughter was still sleeping, so I I kissed her and said a silent sorry. I feel we have bequeathed a country which has just voted itself out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and will shortly be even less influential when the union breaks up. Run by an even more right wing government when Cameron inevitably goes. We have a political system which seems to be more aping the US system of creating a political environment of fear and intolerance, drowning out most real concerns and issues on both sides. And the whole world seems to be sliding into more entrenched nationalistic and introverted policies in a time when I feel we need to work together even more closely to try and counter the economic, environmental and terror threats we face. 

I for one prey the so called experts on one side were not right when they talked about the consequences of this vote we have just made.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 24, 2016)

It was never going to be more than a percent or two either way - which to me is not enough mandate for any decision of this type of magnitude. But l suppose requiring a bigger mandate does make changing the status quo more difficult. 

But today, we are where we are - so l hope we can stop the vitriol & bleating. We now have to make this work.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

All is not lost. Remember Boaty McBoatface!


----------



## RW1986 (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			All is not lost. Remember Boaty McBoatface!
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Pinch me. I've dreamt of this for decades. Proud of the country ignoring all the fear. Now if Scotland can just be on their way that'll be another huge drain on the coffers removed.:clap::thup:
		
Click to expand...

*snigger*


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting in my office as we are a global company with lots of youngish people working here, and there is a very depressed atmosphere. With a little bit of anger. I can only describe the atmosphere as what you would get if someone has died.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Pinch me. I've dreamt of this for decades. Proud of the country ignoring all the fear. Now if Scotland can just be on their way that'll be another huge drain on the coffers removed.:clap::thup:
		
Click to expand...

This surely has the be the mechanism on which Indyref2 comes about.  

62% of Scottish people want EU membership.  I'm quite sure that they don't want to be associated with a country who has followed Farage and Bojo into withdrawing from the European Convention of Human Rights.

You asked for Brexit- I just hope you can swallow what you ordered.  

Any new hospitals yet?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			This surely has the be the mechanism on which Indyref2 comes about.  

62% of Scottish people want EU membership.  I'm quite sure that they don't want to be associated with a country who has followed Farage and Bojo into withdrawing from the European Convention of Human Rights.

You asked for Brexit- I just hope you can swallow what you ordered.  

Any new hospitals yet?
		
Click to expand...

And so the political opportunism rolls on to the next fiasco.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

Whoops.  Farage now saying that the Â£350m a week saving isn't actually accurate and there will be no new hospitals built.

It's almost like they lied.


----------



## larmen (Jun 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Can we get those who lead the Leave to now step up and lead the country They should deliver on their promises rather than go scotfeee
		
Click to expand...

That is what I want to see as well. Perhaps not all of them, just some.
What's the best case scenario? Norway? Still no control of immigration but part of free trade?



Anyway, off to hospital in a minute, seeing where the Â£350 million goes. That is, if they still treat me.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And so the political opportunism rolls on to the next fiasco.
		
Click to expand...

Nationalism response is Nationalism.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			Nationalism response is Nationalism.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. It's the wrong direction of travel, for me.


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Awful post, and we wonder why we English are disliked by so many, no issue with the EU vote the Scotland comment is sad.
		
Click to expand...

He's taking the pith mate unless I'm mithtaken &#128513;


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Shocking result. Most of those who voted out won't be around to see the repercussions. It's a vote for isolationism, that's not worked out very well before 

I think it's impossible for me to feel less 'English' today.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			I think it's impossible for me to feel less 'English' today.
		
Click to expand...

Through my seethe I just see the majority of those down south as Alf Garnett clones.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			Shocking result. Most of those who voted out won't be around to see the repercussions. It's a vote for isolationism, that's not worked out very well before 

I think it's impossible for me to feel less 'English' today.
		
Click to expand...

Come on Iceland, let's make it 2 Brexits in 4 days....


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 24, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			He's taking the pith mate unless I'm mithtaken &#128513;
		
Click to expand...

If it is mate, I apologise and have deleted it.


----------



## Crow (Jun 24, 2016)

Murdoch must be laughing his socks off, his aim of destroying the UK from within is almost complete.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

Today is a great day, today I am proud.  We made the right decision. :thup:


----------



## jp5 (Jun 24, 2016)

RBS down 34%, Lloyds 28%, Barclays 30%.

Currency at 1980 levels.

And we're just getting started


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			Through my seethe I just see the majority of those down south as Alf Garnett clones.
		
Click to expand...

You're not far wrong. The accents and the bank balance may change, but the attitudes don't really. 

Is there any room for us up there? Stirling  is nice. It was even sunny last time I was there. 

Even ignoring the potential economic repercussions, we've voted for a break up of the Union and Irish political unrest. I feel like I went to bed in 2016 and woke up in 1976....at least I can look forward to a hot summer


----------



## ger147 (Jun 24, 2016)

Speculation that Cameron is about to fall on his sword...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			Today is a great day, today I am proud.  We made the right decision. :thup:
		
Click to expand...

The financial markets dont seem to agree with you about it being a great day and i hope it doesnt affect your back pocket

As for it being the "right" decision - i believe that wont be known for a good number of years yet


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

larmen said:



			That is what I want to see as well. Perhaps not all of them, just some.
What's the best case scenario? Norway? Still no control of immigration but part of free trade?



Anyway, off to hospital in a minute, seeing where the Â£350 million goes. That is, if they still treat me.
		
Click to expand...


'Norway are sweet, they are a small country with masses of oil' [2016]

The only way Scotland can guarantee to remain in Europe is to vote No. [2014]

UK Prime Minister speak..........on his way out it seems.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Speculation that Cameron is about to fall on his sword...
		
Click to expand...

Oh great, let's get Gove or Bojo in, that will make everything all right, or what about Farage as he seems to have a sweeping mandate now.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Make farage foreign secretary 

It's what we voted for


----------



## ger147 (Jun 24, 2016)

Dave's going...


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 24, 2016)

Please not Gove

Boris against Trump that could be interesting


----------



## gregbwfc (Jun 24, 2016)

Bodgit and Leggit springs to mind


----------



## User62651 (Jun 24, 2016)

New PM? - Davis, May or Grayling for me, rest are too divisive imo.

Cameron the gambler - one bet too many?

Crazy times ....dont panic!


----------



## jp5 (Jun 24, 2016)

So do we now get to elect a new PM? Hope we won't be ruled an unelected one...


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

It'll be May.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Please not Gove

Boris against Trump that could be interesting
		
Click to expand...

And throw in Putin to the mix and what can possibly go wrong...


----------



## Fish (Jun 24, 2016)

:whoo:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

jp5 said:



			So do we now get to elect a new PM? Hope we won't be ruled an unelected one...
		
Click to expand...

Alternative to me is that if we have a GE then UKIP will get a surge in votes.  So personally I hope not. Also don't feel conservatives will want one as they know UKIP will eat into their votes as well I suspect. Plus potential for big backlash from the disaffected 48% who votes remain who may well blame tory party for this.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Fish said:



View attachment 19845
  :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Nice 

We're gonna have a party like its 1974 !


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Alternative to me is that if we have a GE then UKIP will get a surge in votes.  So personally I hope not. Also don't feel conservatives will want one as they know UKIP will eat into their votes as well I suspect. Plus potential for big backlash from the disaffected 48% who votes remain who may well blame tory party for this.
		
Click to expand...

The UKIP are irrelevant!  They will fold into the Tories.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 24, 2016)

Really do hope it's the right decision for my son's future, I can see a few dificult years ahead, once negotiations are done and dusted and we see the impact, hopefully the right decision has been made and we prosper as one.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Alternative to me is that if we have a GE then UKIP will get a surge in votes.  So personally I hope not. Also don't feel conservatives will want one as they know UKIP will eat into their votes as well I suspect.
		
Click to expand...

Is UKIP not now effectively defunct, now their raison d'etre is acheived?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

I see the first designs for the new pound coin have been released...







(Shamelessly stolen from fb)


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			It'll be May.
		
Click to expand...

No October:lol:


----------



## User62651 (Jun 24, 2016)

Worried as a Scot, politicians playing games with our lives, even if SNP use this as leverage to try and leave UK which they may well do, if they did win (still doubtful imo) there may not be an EU left in a few years to lean on, this result will drive similar referendums across wealthier northern European countries I think, will end up with 26 countries leaning on Germany as the only significant net contributor which is unsustainable.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Come on Iceland, let's make it 2 Brexits in 4 days....

Click to expand...

You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Fish (Jun 24, 2016)

When can I get this back :smirk:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Worried as a Scot, politicians playing games with our lives, even if SNP use this as leverage to try and leave UK which they may well do, if they did win (still doubtful imo) there may not be an EU left in a few years to lean on, this result will drive similar referendums across wealthier northern European countries I think, will end up with 26 countries leaning on Germany as the only significant net contributor which is unsustainable.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think the votes were high enough for Indy2.
Less than 70% is not enough IMO.
If I were Nicola I would let it run for a couple of years. 
If England and Wales vote Tory again it should be an SNP shoe in.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The financial markets dont seem to agree with you about it being a great day and i hope it doesnt affect your back pocket

As for it being the "right" decision - i believe that wont be known for a good number of years yet
		
Click to expand...

It was a certainty that they would be hit hard on day 1, week 1, month 1....who knows for sure...... the decision is only a few hours old.  I am confident however that the decision for our future is the correct one.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think the votes were high enough for Indy2.
Less than 70% is not enough IMO.
If I were Nicola I would let it run for a couple of years. 
If England and Wales vote Tory again it should be an SNP shoe in.
		
Click to expand...

If the SNP don't hold off long enough for the dust to settle so we know what we're voting for they will be confirmed as the unprincipled opportunists many feel they are.

And I mean years because that's how long it'll take for the uk to even begin to recover from this disastrous decision.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 24, 2016)

People panicking already and we are a few hours in.

Human nature hates change but generally it all works out in the end and sometimes even gets better.


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Really do hope it's the right decision for my son's future, I can see a few dificult years ahead, once negotiations are done and dusted and we see the impact, hopefully the right decision has been made and we prosper as one.
		
Click to expand...

This.
I voted so hopefully in 10 years time my daughter will see some form of benefit. Let's face it, it was only going to get worse if it had stayed the same.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 24, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			People panicking already and we are a few hours in.

Human nature hates change but generally it all works out in the end and sometimes even gets better.
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope so Tony.


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Scotland......CUT THEM LOOSE.....you are a disgrace !!! Led by a woman!!! Where are the men with doodahhs?
		
Click to expand...

You'll be absolutely delighted with Theresa May as PM then 

With these sort of comments I think it should be you that's ashamed of yourself :thup:


----------



## ADB (Jun 24, 2016)

Personally I think the older generation have torpedoed our children's future. That feeling may dwindle as the dust settles, but strangely I feel less British this morning....,


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

ADB said:



			Personally I think the older generation have torpedoed our children's future. That feeling may dwindle as the dust settles, but strangely I feel less British this morning....,
		
Click to expand...

There should be an IQ test as a proviso to vote. May have been different then


----------



## Region3 (Jun 24, 2016)

I've stayed out of any debate about this because I've been undecided throughout.

What stands out to me now the result is known, is that the remain people are saying it's a disaster as if it's a fact, whilst the leave people are saying they don't know what the future holds but are excited at the opportunity that the result affords us.

I am happy to concede that pretty much everyone on here knows more than me, so I'm not after an argument because I have no ammunition, but I am also as sure that there are lots and lots of very clever people that think things are going to turn out just fine.

As for the stock market, it always overreacts to any news that means change, and it wouldn't have fallen so far if they hadn't inflated it in the last few days thinking they were being clever by anticipating a remain result.

Finally, what a plank Farage is making his speech sound like a speech from a film. I hope he has nothing to do with our future.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			There should be an IQ test as a proviso to vote. May have been different then 

Click to expand...

Should have just ensured no Sun reader was allowed to vote


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

If leaving was such an obvious cock up then all the politicians from all parties would have been in the stay camp.  The fact that they wasn't should bring comfort to some.
Look forward not backwards


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			There should be an IQ test as a proviso to vote. May have been different then 

Click to expand...

I agree, it may have been 90-95% leave instead of the small but significant margin.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Is UKIP not now effectively defunct, now their raison d'etre is acheived?
		
Click to expand...

I think it could go two ways.  Yes they could now be irrelevant. Or alternatively they could use this surge of support for their main policy to make electoral gains. It would not take much of a spin doctor to paint them as the most relevant party in UK politics now with their finger on the pulse of the nations feelings (OK, it is technically just over half that voted, but the point still stands)


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			You should be ashamed of yourself.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest on today of all days I am not feeling that ashamed but I feel there are plenty of others that should be.  But hey ho.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 24, 2016)

God, you people are so bitter. We've had a democratic vote as it should be. Now back our great country to succeed and flourish and stop putting ourselves down. As for Scotland, Sturgeon has already made it clear she see's their future within the eu.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



*If leaving was such an obvious cock up then all the politicians from all parties would have been in the stay camp*.  The fact that they wasn't should bring comfort to some.
Look forward not backwards
		
Click to expand...

But that is assuming that all politicians are in it for the good of the country, and not their naked personal political ambition.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			I agree, it may have been 90-95% leave instead of the small but significant margin.
		
Click to expand...

 said slightly tongue in cheek...only slightly


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But that is assuming that all politicians are in it for the good of the country, and not their naked personal political ambition.

Click to expand...

And vice versa.   All crooks imo


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			God, you people are so bitter. We've had a democratic vote as it should be. Now back our great country to succeed and flourish and stop putting ourselves down. As for Scotland, Sturgeon has already made it clear she see's their future within the eu.
		
Click to expand...

This.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But that is assuming that all politicians are in it for the good of the country, and not their naked personal political ambition.

Click to expand...

This...politicians nowadays are insulated from the real world impact of this. They are professional opportunists, in the main, Corbyn being a throwback. Gove & Johnson are political opportunists who would sell their granny to get on.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			God, you people are so bitter. We've had a democratic vote as it should be. Now back our great country to succeed and flourish and stop putting ourselves down. As for Scotland, Sturgeon has already made it clear she see's their future within the eu.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know why it's called Great Britain ?


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			This...politicians nowadays are insulated from the real world impact of this. They are professional opportunists, in the main, Corbyn being a throwback. Gove & Johnson are political opportunists who would sell their granny to get on.
		
Click to expand...

I agree to an extent but how can a politician ride his own agenda if it goes tits up.   They must have self belief that it could work or they'll end up with egg on their face and won't achieve anything


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2016)

The people have spoken.

I for one am looking forward to 

The exit from the EU process.

The Scotland campaign for independence and joining the EU.

Northern Ireland wanting to join the EU alla Sein Fein.

The campaign for a new Prime minister

The campaign for a new Labour leader.

UKIPs future.

countrys within the EU looking at how The UK fare.

There is enough there to keep the golf monthly devotees happy for a weekend


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

I still don't understand why the scotts have been banging on about independence and then vote to stay in the Eu?????


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			The people have spoken.

I for one am looking forward to 

The exit from the EU process.

The Scotland campaign for independence and joining the EU.

Northern Ireland wanting to join the EU alla Sein Fein.

The campaign for a new Prime minister

The campaign for a new Labour leader.

UKIPs future.

countrys within the EU looking at how The UK fare.

There is enough there to keep the golf monthly devotees happy for a weekend
		
Click to expand...

I agree buddy.   Working in the public sector I'm fed up with seeing heart attack victims waiting 20 minutes for a paramedic because they haven't got the funding for more feet on the ground.    Yet india get 270 million in aid because the eu said so


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			There should be an IQ test as a proviso to vote. May have been different then 

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that if you voted leave you are if low IQ. Shows the level that some of the remain have supporters have lowered themselves to or are you claiming a smiley face.

Its democracy, people might not like it but that's the system . For those that don't agree with it start a campaign to change it, might have a referendum on it. Again.


----------



## freddielong (Jun 24, 2016)

What the country needs now is a very strong government and leader, I like David Cameron but given his campaigning to remain he cannot be the right person to now negotiate with Europe.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			I agree buddy.   Working in the public sector I'm fed up with seeing heart attack victims waiting 20 minutes for a paramedic because they haven't got the funding for more feet on the ground.    Yet india get 270 million in aid because the eu said so
		
Click to expand...

But surely the 2 aren't linked? Public sector cuts are George osbourne's agenda, driven by the Tory need to balance the books their way. The other is the EU/our requirement to fight worldwide poverty, they don't come from the same pot. Just like the Â£350million quid a week we save won't be spent on the nhs or fire brigade etc. It will be wasted elsewhere. 

Part of me is disappointed, part of me realises we just need to accept this and get on with it.

But... It won't be the 'great' Britain that was voted for..it will just be little England


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			I still don't understand why the scotts have been banging on about independence and then vote to stay in the Eu?????
		
Click to expand...

Read.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting that if you voted leave you are if low IQ. Shows the level that some of the remain have supporters have lowered themselves to or are you claiming a smiley face.

Its democracy, people might not like it but that's the system . For those that don't agree with it start a campaign to change it, might have a referendum on it. Again.
		
Click to expand...

Nope I'm standing by the former


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

My daughter says she might have to consider moving her business from Scotland to Ireland, she was just starting to build up good links in Europe.
I wonder if this is the road others will follow, especially Northern Irish.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			But surely the 2 aren't linked? Public sector cuts are George osbourne's agenda, driven by the Tory need to balance the books their way. The other is the EU/our requirement to fight worldwide poverty, they don't come from the same pot. Just like the Â£350million quid a week we save won't be spent on the nhs or fire brigade etc. It will be wasted elsewhere. 

Part of me is disappointed, part of me realises we just need to accept this and get on with it.

But... It won't be the 'great' Britain that was voted for..it will just be little England
		
Click to expand...

My point is the government have forced the hand of the public.   I didn't want to leave but voted leave because (imo) the government was looking outwards instead of inward.   They promised things they didn't deliver.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2016)

I'd far sooner that Osborne had fallen on his proverbial sword rather than Cameron...

Still plenty of time for him to do so though...

BJ getting a warm reception from Londoners this morning... Not!


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest on today of all days I am not feeling that ashamed but I feel there are plenty of others that should be.  But hey ho.
		
Click to expand...

Today is the day when we should roll up out sleeves and say to the world, 
This is how democracy works, we all vote and then crack on. We can now unite and rebuild out national pride, and no I don't mean cut ourselves off, I mean show the world we are a great country of hard working and honest people who are easy to deal with. We do not want to turn into  jack booted skins heads, that is NOT who we are. We need everyone to do this. Lift your heads up and be proud of your country.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			My point is the government have forced the hand of the public.   I didn't want to leave but voted leave because (imo) the government was looking outwards instead of inward.   They promised things they didn't deliver.
		
Click to expand...

That's kind of my point. Is it a protest vote against Cameron & osbourne, or is it a proper eu out vote?


----------



## stokie_93 (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			My point is the government have forced the hand of the public.   I didn't want to leave but voted leave because (imo) the government was looking outwards instead of inward.   They promised things they didn't deliver.
		
Click to expand...

you didn't want to leave but voted leave? are you for real?


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Today is the day when we should roll up out sleeves and say to the world, 
This is how democracy works, we all vote and then crack on. We can now unite and rebuild out national pride, and no I don't mean cut ourselves off, I mean show the world we are a great country of hard working and honest people who are easy to deal with. We do not want to turn into  jack booted skins heads, that is NOT who we are. We need everyone to do this. Lift your heads up and be proud of your country.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			you didn't want to leave but voted leave? are you for real?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.  Feel like there's no other option.   Government are not listening.    They will now


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My daughter says she might have to consider moving her business from Scotland to Ireland, she was just starting to build up good links in Europe.
I wonder if this is the road others will follow, especially Northern Irish.
		
Click to expand...

Boom time for Ireland, I suspect. Lots of foreign companies like an English speaking gateway into the EU. That used to be us.


----------



## Raesy92 (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Today is the day when we should roll up out sleeves and say to the world, 
This is how democracy works, we all vote and then crack on. We can now unite and rebuild out national pride, and no I don't mean cut ourselves off, I mean show the world we are a great country of hard working and honest people who are easy to deal with. We do not want to turn into  jack booted skins heads, that is NOT who we are. We need everyone to do this. Lift your heads up and be proud of your country.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is that many are not hard working and honest people... We blame immigrants for 'taking our jobs' but these are exactly the people that refuse to do the jobs that immigrants are taking.


----------



## Snelly (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			There should be an IQ test as a proviso to vote. May have been different then 

Click to expand...

Which is precisely the kind of high handed attitude that prompted me to vote leave.  The liberal elite insinuating that anyone not voting remain is thick and / or xenophobic has been their downfall. 

I am not stupid or racist and being told that I must be by the thought police has been totally unacceptable to me.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My daughter says she might have to consider moving her business from Scotland to Ireland, she was just starting to build up good links in Europe.
I wonder if this is the road others will follow, especially Northern Irish.
		
Click to expand...

So she's not to sure what would be best for her business then as its only a might.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			The problem is that many are not hard working and honest people... We blame immigrants for 'taking our jobs' but these are exactly the people that refuse to do the jobs that immigrants are taking.
		
Click to expand...

3 Polish firemen in Staffordshire have most certainly taken jobs from British people wanting them.

The Slovak receptionist at my gym got the job many wanted


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 24, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			The problem is that many are not hard working and honest people... We blame immigrants for 'taking our jobs' but these are exactly the people that refuse to do the jobs that immigrants are taking.
		
Click to expand...

Our unemployment rate is inline with many countries. And they get by OK. Saying we won't succeed because of a few is wrong imo. If anything, once the "blame immigrants" excuse can't be used. Hopefully tougher sanctions will be made to these few people and they'll contribute or their benefits will be cut.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Alternative to me is that if we have a GE then UKIP will get a surge in votes.  So personally I hope not. Also don't feel conservatives will want one as they know UKIP will eat into their votes as well I suspect. Plus potential for big backlash from the disaffected 48% who votes remain who may well blame tory party for this.
		
Click to expand...

I am one of that 48% and any backlash from me will be aimed very firmly at the Labour Party.

The Tories knew all along that their party and its voters were divided on this issue and attempted to address it.

Labour on the other hand largely took an arrogant and complacent stance that their vote would fall into line. Trouble was not enough people knew what that line was.

As Mandelson said on the radio this morning after a year in the job it really is about time that Corbyn started presenting some indication of policies. 

The trouble is he is finding a real political job much tougher than the politics of protest that he has been used to.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			That's kind of my point. Is it a protest vote against Cameron & osbourne, or is it a proper eu out vote?
		
Click to expand...

Did you read the ballot paper.

Things I didn't notice,

a place for DOB. Did you want to remove Cameron & Osbourne from office.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			When I left to come to work this morning my 10 year old daughter was still sleeping, so I I kissed her and said a silent sorry. I feel we have bequeathed a country which has just voted itself out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and will shortly be even less influential when the union breaks up. Run by an even more right wing government when Cameron inevitably goes. We have a political system which seems to be more aping the US system of creating a political environment of fear and intolerance, drowning out most real concerns and issues on both sides. And the whole world seems to be sliding into more entrenched nationalistic and introverted policies in a time when I feel we need to work together even more closely to try and counter the economic, environmental and terror threats we face. 

I for one prey the so called experts on one side were not right when they talked about the consequences of this vote we have just made.
		
Click to expand...

I wish this was not how I feel this morning.  My 21 and 24 yr old children are really upset - and, rightly or wrongly, they blame the older generation for their selfishness and shortsightedness.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Which is precisely the kind of high handed attitude that prompted me to vote leave.  The liberal elite insinuating that anyone not voting remain is thick and / or xenophobic has been their downfall. 

I am not stupid or racist and being told that I must be by the thought police has been totally unacceptable to me.
		
Click to expand...

You're the exception that proves the rule mate . It's ok, you'd have qualified. 

However anyone that talks about 'Great' ' Britain and then mentions that Scotland should 'do one'. Anyone that references a war fought 70 years ago (or 34 years ago for that matter) or anyone that votes in a European referendum on a uk protest vote may not have passed unfortunately


----------



## Slab (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			I still don't understand why the scotts have been banging on about independence and then vote to stay in the Eu?????
		
Click to expand...

When you want to split from your wife/girlfriend it doesn't mean you no longer like women


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I am one of that 48% and any backlash from me will be aimed very firmly at the Labour Party.

The Tories knew all along that their party and its voters were divided on this issue and attempted to address it.

Labour on the other hand largely took an arrogant and complacent stance that their vote would fall into line. Trouble was not enough people knew what that line was.

As Mandelson said on the radio this morning after a year in the job it really is about time that Corbyn started presenting some indication of policies. 

The trouble is he is finding a real political job much tougher than the politics of protest that he has been used to.
		
Click to expand...

Labour Party has been a "do as I say party" for too long which was the main reason my old man left it. Corbyn is one of the worst, anti EU but still insisted everyone else voted to stay. I would love to see his ballot paper.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			That's kind of my point. Is it a protest vote against Cameron & osbourne, or is it a proper eu out vote?
		
Click to expand...

A bit of both really. 

My main reson for leaving is i get a front row seat on emergency services and the nhs.  Most people have no idea how stretched they are.

If you live in Leicestershire and you have a heart attack did you know your going to get two fireman come to your rescue rather than a paramedic?   Its like giving a monkey a machine gun


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Did you read the ballot paper.

Things I didn't notice,

a place for DOB. Did you want to remove Cameron & Osbourne from office.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't see that either, it's just a shame some didn't bring their specs


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Slab said:



			When you want to split from your wife/girlfriend it doesn't mean you no longer like women
		
Click to expand...

Yeh, put me off for life


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wish this was not how I feel this morning.  My 21 and 24 yr old children are really upset - and, rightly or wrongly, they blame the older generation for their selfishness and shortsightedness.
		
Click to expand...

Sit them down and politely explain to them that democracy has no age barriers and being ageist is as bad as being racist or sexist. I'm sure they will listen to an old mans wise words.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			3 Polish firemen in Staffordshire have most certainly taken jobs from British people wanting them.

The Slovak receptionist at my gym got the job many wanted
		
Click to expand...

Is it not possible that they got the job because they were the best people for that job irrelevant of their nationality


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not possible that they got the job because they were the best people for that job irrelevant of their nationality
		
Click to expand...

No.  They got the job to tick a box.   one of them didn't pass the physical test of lifting a ladder above his head and still got in.  He was given a training need!!!!   Plenty who got to that point managed it no problem


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			I didn't see that either, it's just a shame some didn't bring their specs
		
Click to expand...

Didn't the SW vote out, must be a region full of blind old fools then. Man of your superior vision should think of a move.


----------



## Raesy92 (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			3 Polish firemen in Staffordshire have most certainly taken jobs from British people wanting them.

The Slovak receptionist at my gym got the job many wanted
		
Click to expand...

So what? Their are Brits in many other countries that will have jobs that people from their retrospective country went for. These people obviously got the job because they are better qualified.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			A bit of both really. 

My main reson for leaving is i get a front row seat on emergency services and the nhs.  Most people have no idea how stretched they are.

If you live in Leicestershire and you have a heart attack did you know your going to get two fireman come to your rescue rather than a paramedic?   Its like giving a monkey a machine gun
		
Click to expand...

Dear England, you voted for cuts so you got cuts. It's not the eu to blame, it's not immigrants to blame.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			So what? Their are Brits in many other countries that will have jobs that people from their retrospective country went for. These people obviously got the job because they are better qualified.
		
Click to expand...

So what?  I'm not disagreeing.   I was answering a post that someone said that immigrants only get the jobs brits dont want.  Thats not true


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting that The Tory party have done something that neither the Labour party or the SNP managed.

Get rid of David Cameron.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Sit them down and politely explain to them that democracy has no age barriers and being ageist is as bad as being racist or sexist. I'm sure they will listen to an old mans wise words.
		
Click to expand...

I think the facts on the age split will bear out their disappointment at the view taken by the older generation, they are not being irrational and they made up their own minds.


----------



## Raesy92 (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			So what?  I'm not disagreeing.   I was answering a post that someone said that immigrants only get the jobs brits dont want.  Thats not true
		
Click to expand...

I did not say all the jobs.


----------



## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Dear England, you voted for cuts so you got cuts. It's not the eu to blame, it's not immigrants to blame.
		
Click to expand...


:thup:


----------



## ger147 (Jun 24, 2016)

Breaking news from the Channel Tunnel...


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Breaking news from the Channel Tunnel...

View attachment 19848

Click to expand...

Brilliant


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Breaking news from the Channel Tunnel...

View attachment 19848

Click to expand...


Which direction......in or out?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think the facts on the age split will bear out their disappointment at the view taken by the older generation, they are not being irrational and they made up their own minds.
		
Click to expand...

What facts. Nobody asked me my age when I voted. There are NO real facts on the age profile of any votes just guess work.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			I didn't want to leave but voted leave
		
Click to expand...

And with that, I'm exiting the thread.  

Congratulations.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 24, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Today is the day when we should roll up our sleeves and show the world we are a great country of hard working and honest people who are easy to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

Bring back British Leyland is what I say.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

I wonder if we've paid this weeks installment...er we'll have that back matey boy


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Bring back British Leyland is what I say.
		
Click to expand...

I'm hoping Red Robbo makes a reappearance since we seem to be jumping back to the 70s.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 24, 2016)

It is sad that we have blamed the EU for failure of subsequent govt to manage the NHS, immigration et al .. well the next lot won't have a chance to blame EU for not being able to fund new hospitals with the mythical 350m. 


While we are at it can we also leave NATO and take even stronger control of our borders? What has NATO done for us and it has indirectly reduced our personnel as we depend on NATO to help us.

Or should we start with the UN.


----------



## irip (Jun 24, 2016)

Do i have to now return my continental quilt?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

irip said:



			Do i have to now return my continental quilt?
		
Click to expand...

No, contingency measures were taken years ago to rename them duvets


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Didn't the SW vote out, must be a region full of blind old fools then. Man of your superior vision should think of a move.
		
Click to expand...

not blind fools, just old people motivated by the politics of fear


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2016)

I've got the refrain on Fantasic Day on a loop at work.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

irip said:



			Do i have to now return my continental quilt?
		
Click to expand...


And your french windows


----------



## vkurup (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			And your french windows
		
Click to expand...

I have tons of Ikea stuff.. what happens to that?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			not blind fools, just old people motivated by the politics of fear 

Click to expand...

At what ages do you think people should no longer be able to vote then.


----------



## Snelly (Jun 24, 2016)

The level of intolerance from the left on anyone who does not share their world view is quite breathtaking this morning. 

So much so that I have deactivated my Facebook account before I say something I shouldn't.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I have tons of Ikea stuff.. what happens to that?
		
Click to expand...

Burn it. Only the meatballs are any good.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

Disappointed by the decision, but it's now time for everyone to pull together to make the best of the situation we've put ourselves in. It's not time for political opportunism or mindless bickering. 

Whatever happens, we've got an interesting few years ahead of us.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			At what ages do you think people should no longer be able to vote then.
		
Click to expand...

No age limit, just IQ. I hear some older fellas are quite clever


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

Snelly said:



			The level of intolerance from the left on anyone who does not share their world view is quite breathtaking this morning. 

So much so that I have deactivated my Facebook account before I say something I shouldn't.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's fair to say there is a level of intolerance on both sides of the fence - it was the same before the vote and was always going to happen which ever way the vote went. 

Only have to look at some of the stuff being said on here about Scotland and what Farage is saying


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

therod said:



			No age limit, just IQ. I hear some older fellas are quite clever
		
Click to expand...

What about women, can they still vote?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Watched and listened to Mark Carney's statement earlier this morning made to reassure and calm the markets - and I thought that there's a guy who knows what he is talking about, he and the  BoE has clearly assessed the risks of _Leave_ as they have contingency and mitigation plans in place for this eventuality.  And so as they listened I wonder how many _Leave _supporters were thinking back to their words of condemnation and dismissal of his statements of concern made over the last few weeks - when as an expert - not to be trusted - in the pocket of Cameron - he was just another a scaremonger.  The Governor of the Bank of England - who now has to lead sorting out the mess.

Shame on _Leave_


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only have to look at some of the stuff being said on here about Scotland and what Farage is saying
		
Click to expand...

Scotland voting is an interesting one. Numbers voting was lower than the national average and way lower than the Indy vote.

We're they complacent or just not really interested in the EU in the way that we were led to believe. 

Hard one to work out.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			What about women, can they still vote?
		
Click to expand...

Good God man! 

You will soon be suggesting that we allow them into the golf club. Perish the thought.


----------



## larmen (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			What about women, can they still vote?
		
Click to expand...

Joking aside, there will be some rules and laws which are common sense but which might not be applying in the UK anymore. they will have to be changes to get the UK law into current times, at least on the bits it didn't need to look at that hard for the last 25 years.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watched and listened to Mark Carney's statement earlier this morning made to reassure and calm the markets - and I thought that there's a guy who knows what he is talking about, he and the  BoE has clearly assessed the risks of _Leave_ as they have contingency and mitigation plans in place for this eventuality.  And so as they listened I wonder how many _Leave _supporters were thinking back to their words of condemnation and dismissal of his statements of concern made over the last few weeks - when as an expert - not to be trusted - in the pocket of Cameron - he was just another a scaremonger.  The Governor of the Bank of England - who now has to lead sorting out the mess.

Shame on _Leave_

Click to expand...

Shame on you for rubbishing democracy.


----------



## Rooter (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting times ahead, one thing is for sure, moaning about it will get us nowhere. I wanted to stay and fear that leaving is going to stick is firmly back into recession for the next 5 years. I hope I am wrong, I am no economist after all.

Feel very aggrieved by the campaign surrounding the 350million to be pumped back into the NHS turned out to be nothing other than hot air, if that were a company advertising a product or service they would have been fined heavily and probably any contracts lost after being proved they were gained illegally. 

Time to knuckle down and see what happens! 

I was in Germany all week with people from 15 countries in Europe, none of which wanted GB to leave.. The EU nations will be equally as concerned this morning as a lot of us are.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			What facts. Nobody asked me my age when I voted. There are NO real facts on the age profile of any votes just guess work.
		
Click to expand...

Oh just get real!

OK then - let's wait until we get the breakdown and I'll then tell my children that they were wrong - that in fact it was the under 30s who voted us out,


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			At what ages do you think people should no longer be able to vote then.
		
Click to expand...

My children did not say the older generation should not vote - they just rather hoped that they'd vote with future generations in mind and maybe take on board what the current younger generations would want.  And not vote for their own short-term (hoped for) benefit.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Shame on you for rubbishing democracy.
		
Click to expand...

In what way am I rubbishing democracy?  Pray enlighten me.

_Leave _should be ashamed of the way they traduced Mark Carney - they will now be looking to him for his advice on how to see our way out of the mess they have created.


----------



## Snelly (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it's fair to say there is a level of intolerance on both sides of the fence - it was the same before the vote and was always going to happen which ever way the vote went. 

Only have to look at some of the stuff being said on here about Scotland and what Farage is saying
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm.  Seems more to me like lefties not accepting a democratic vote and furthermore, worrying about the parlous state of the financial markets.  Strange times we are living in!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh just get real!

OK then - let's wait until we get the breakdown and I'll then tell my children that they were wrong - that in fact it was the under 30s who voted us out,
		
Click to expand...

Well I only know four people who voted Leave and their ages; 31, 32, 42 and 69. Equally I know five Remain voters (including myself) ages 31, 60, 67, 67, and 73.

We will not get a breakdown by age of voter because nobody knows. The figures so far presented were prepared by the same people who, as late as 10 o'clock last night were predicting a win for Remain.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Scotland voting is an interesting one. Numbers voting was lower than the national average and way lower than the Indy vote.

We're they complacent or just not really interested in the EU in the way that we were led to believe. 

Hard one to work out.
		
Click to expand...

I'm up here and I've seen no canvassing, no posters up, nothing highlighting this referendum, compared to 2014 its night and day. It was a given remain would win here and therefore maybe a little voter apathy reflected in turnout given recent Indyref, general election and scottish elections. Scotland is not under immigration pressure (perceived or real) like parts of England, we need population growth so that's not much of an issue. UK Sovereignty is not a major pull either given support for independence and even republic. EU spend is obvious in rural areas of Scotland, some massive infrastructure improvements that the UK govt would not have made. Some may have voted tactically to make the SNP position stronger but most would genuinely be happy enough to be part of EU despite its flaws. Odd juxtaposition with SNP and Cameron pulling in the same direction this time.
This is not a position Nicola Sturgeon wanted, may get her hand forced, Salmond slavering already for another pop at Indy, does he not realise he's no longer party leader? Who'd be in politics?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well I only know four people who voted Leave and their ages; 31, 32, 42 and 69. Equally I know five Remain voters (including myself) ages 31, 60, 67, 67, and 73.

We will not get a breakdown by age of voter because nobody knows. The figures so far presented were prepared by the same people who, as late as 10 o'clock last night were predicting a win for Remain.
		
Click to expand...

OK then - I'll accept that we will never know exactly the demographic breakdown of the vote.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Hmmm.  Seems more to me like lefties not accepting a democratic vote and furthermore, worrying about the parlous state of the financial markets.  Strange times we are living in!
		
Click to expand...

Can understand people being worried - there has been immediate reaction financially and time will tell how long that goes on for - certainly seen stories of million dollar trade deals cancelled already - all knee jerk stuff that will happen because the country is moving into the unknown 

There seems a belief that we will go back to the prosperous days before EU yet my parents say they were dark bleak days with the industries ripped apart by our own government - the country could boom on its own again , we could continue to prosper and jobs etc will rise but right now it's hard to see how that will happen when we need to re negotiate deals - hope we aren't like the Swiss and take 9 years. 

My biggest concern is I don't trust one single politician - we won't send this money to the EU but instead will spend in within the uk - but who is to say that we will have it to spend anyway. Lots of unknown questions and they now need to deliver what's promised - coming out about the Â£350mil and NHS wasn't a good start


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - I'll accept that we will never know exactly the demographic breakdown of the vote.
		
Click to expand...

There is an Ashcroft UK leavers poll around [on Wings], it looks pretty comprehensive with a 15,000 sample.

Big difference in the voting of the comfortable older generation 45+ [oot] compared to the struggling younger generation 18-35 [in].


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - I'll accept that we will never know exactly the demographic breakdown of the vote.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is too many assumptions have been made throughout the campaign.

It was initially assumed that the Labour vote would largely support Remain but judging by the constituency results this was both a wrong and dangerous assumption.

Many of those core voters have concerns over seemingly uncontrolled immigration and its effect upon infrastructure like schools and the NHS.

Those concerns may well be unfounded but no attempt appears to have been made to address them or explain why they are unfounded.

This is attributable to a fear by all members of the political elite to even discuss the issue for fear of accusations of racism thereby providing fertile ground for the pernicious views of Farage to take hold.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

I am sad and I am confused - and so I listened to the statements by Gove and Johnson - and they looked stunned and could offer nothing that gave me any cause for hope or optimism.  It's as if Cameron has just said - well you've broke it - you fix it - and they don't know what to do.  I very much hope that, in fact, they have more idea than what I've just heard.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting development.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/24/scotland-n-ireland-can-stay-in-eu-says-merkel-ally/


----------



## gregbwfc (Jun 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Disappointed by the decision, but it's now time for everyone to pull together to make the best of the situation we've put ourselves in. It's not time for political opportunism or mindless bickering. 

Whatever happens, we've got an interesting few years ahead of us.
		
Click to expand...

This. :thup:.
We'll be reet mate (I think/hope )


----------



## Slab (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting development.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/24/scotland-n-ireland-can-stay-in-eu-says-merkel-ally/

Click to expand...

Pretty sure subscription websites are not an interesting development of the referendum outcome 

I'd need to pay to read about the point you're trying to make


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

The majority of Britain voted leave because we've been stuck in the same rut for decades.
We're constantly being told that everything is falling down around us.......
The armed forces under equipped 
double dip recession 
NHS unable to cope
Police stretched to the limit
Too many people coming to Britain and scrounging off an already stretched welfare system, 
and still we give billions to the EU to prop up the likes of Lithuania, Hungary, Luxembourg.
Don't even mention the MPs lying to their back teeth to stay on the gravy train lining their pockets and sod anyone else.
All in it together?
Is it any wonder the majority of people voted for a change.
And don't forget, if you don't change anything, nothing will change.

If we had woken up this morning and been told the 'STAY' had won, nothing would change.
But Britain voted for a change, they voted to end all the misery, they voted for a new hope.

It's not going to be easy but then nothing worth getting ever is.
If you don't try, you don't get.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			The majority of Britain voted leave because we've been stuck in the same rut for decades.
We're constantly being told that everything is falling down around us.......
The armed forces under equipped 
double dip recession 
NHS unable to cope
Police stretched to the limit
Too many people coming to Britain and scrounging off an already stretched welfare system, 
and still we give billions to the EU to prop up the likes of Lithuania, Hungary, Luxembourg.
Don't even mention the MPs lying to their back teeth to stay on the gravy train lining their pockets and sod anyone else.
All in it together?
Is it any wonder the majority of people voted for a change.
And don't forget, if you don't change anything, nothing will change.

If we had woken up this morning and been told the 'STAY' had won, nothing would change.
But Britain voted for a change, they voted to end all the misery, they voted for a new hope.

It's not going to be easy but then nothing worth getting ever is.
If you don't try, you don't get.
		
Click to expand...

I wanted to say all the above but couldn't be bothered to type it all.   So can i borrow this post and say "me too"


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			I wanted to say all the above but couldn't be bothered to type it all.   So can i borrow this post and say "me too"
		
Click to expand...

It will cost you 2 Euros


----------



## ADB (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can understand people being worried - there has been immediate reaction financially and time will tell how long that goes on for - certainly seen stories of million dollar trade deals cancelled already - all knee jerk stuff that will happen because the country is moving into the unknown 

There seems a belief that we will go back to the prosperous days before EU yet my parents say they were dark bleak days with the industries ripped apart by our own government - the country could boom on its own again , we could continue to prosper and jobs etc will rise but right now it's hard to see how that will happen when we need to re negotiate deals - hope we aren't like the Swiss and take 9 years. 

My biggest concern is I don't trust one single politician - we won't send this money to the EU but instead will spend in within the uk - but who is to say that we will have it to spend anyway. Lots of unknown questions and they now need to deliver what's promised - coming out about the Â£350mil and NHS wasn't a good start
		
Click to expand...

My concern that the country has voted for a structure than no one knows how to implement, who will implement or what the outcome will be. On R4 this morning Iain Duncan Smith stated openly he had no idea who would lead the country into this period of uncertainty......come on! - you campaigned hard for Leave with no idea how it would work when David Cam inevitably fell on his sword..that is what worries me.


----------



## virtuocity (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			The majority of Britain voted leave because we've been stuck in the same rut for decades.
We're constantly being told that everything is falling down around us.......
The armed forces under equipped 
double dip recession 
NHS unable to cope
Police stretched to the limit
Too many people coming to Britain and scrounging off an already stretched welfare system, 
and still we give billions to the EU to prop up the likes of Lithuania, Hungary, Luxembourg.
Don't even mention the MPs lying to their back teeth to stay on the gravy train lining their pockets and sod anyone else.
All in it together?
Is it any wonder the majority of people voted for a change.
And don't forget, if you don't change anything, nothing will change.

If we had woken up this morning and been told the 'STAY' had won, nothing would change.
But Britain voted for a change, they voted to end all the misery, they voted for a new hope.

It's not going to be easy but then nothing worth getting ever is.
If you don't try, you don't get.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with your summary, however, these are the same people who voted for austerity, the very reason the country is in the state it is.  But aye, blame the EU.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

We could have changed the eu. We could have stayed and played our part to make it better for ourselves, our European neighbours and the rest of the world.

We didn't. In truth, we never properly engaged with it. We're a small minded, insular country that grows more irrelevant in international terms with each passing government. 

We had a great chance to mean something in the modern world and we turned our backs.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We could have changed the eu. We could have stayed and played our part to make it better for ourselves, our European neighbours and the rest of the world.

We didn't. In truth, we never properly engaged with it. We're a small minded, insular country that grows more irrelevant in international terms with each passing government. 

We had a great chance to mean something in the modern world and we turned our backs.
		
Click to expand...

So it seems - sadly.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			The majority of Britain voted leave because we've been stuck in the same rut for decades.
We're constantly being told that everything is falling down around us.......
The armed forces under equipped 
double dip recession 
NHS unable to cope
Police stretched to the limit
Too many people coming to Britain and scrounging off an already stretched welfare system, 
and still we give billions to the EU to prop up the likes of Lithuania, Hungary, Luxembourg.
Don't even mention the MPs lying to their back teeth to stay on the gravy train lining their pockets and sod anyone else.
All in it together?
Is it any wonder the majority of people voted for a change.
And don't forget, if you don't change anything, nothing will change.

If we had woken up this morning and been told the 'STAY' had won, nothing would change.
But Britain voted for a change, they voted to end all the misery, they voted for a new hope.

It's not going to be easy but then nothing worth getting ever is.
If you don't try, you don't get.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is Bob - none of that is EU's fault 

The EU have actually ensured money was spent in areas that our own government were ignoring 

Police, NHS , Armed Forces - all measures put in place by our government not the EU 

More UK nationals scrounging of the benefits 

Recession isn't down to the EU as well 

Businesses were doing well because of the EU , our NHS is propped up by migrant workers willing to do the dirty jobs , by migrant workers who have worked to get a better a job whilst UK nationals sit and claim benefits 

Our economy was on the way up - wages on the way up , people owning homes - the country was improving IMO and the EU helped 

Now we have do that on our own.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2016)

Just back from a walk down the High St...
And, the world seems to be functioning perfectly well...


A justified poke in the eye for the establishment and big business...
Sadly, they'll find a way around it and all will be back to normal in no time at all...

The world, whatever the final result, was never gonna come to an end...

Onward and upward....


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We could have changed the eu. We could have stayed and played our part to make it better for ourselves, our European neighbours and the rest of the world.

We didn't. In truth, we never properly engaged with it. We're a small minded, insular country that grows more irrelevant in international terms with each passing government. 

We had a great chance to mean something in the modern world and we turned our backs.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair Karen, the governments of the past 40 years didn't  change much and I couldn't see that changing in the forseable future, time for a change.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			To be fair Karen, the governments of the past 40 years didn't  change much and I couldn't see that changing in the forseable future, time for a change.
		
Click to expand...

A change was needed Bob. But in the opposite direction, I'm afraid. More international cooperation, not less.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We could have changed the eu. We could have stayed and played our part to make it better for ourselves, our European neighbours and the rest of the world.

We didn't. In truth, we never properly engaged with it. We're a small minded, insular country that grows more irrelevant in international terms with each passing government. 

We had a great chance to mean something in the modern world and we turned our backs.
		
Click to expand...

You would have had more chance in getting those flying pigs to break formation.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Now we have do that on our own.
		
Click to expand...

But we'll have Â£8.5bn MORE to do it with than we had yesterday


----------



## MarkE (Jun 24, 2016)

Is Sturgeon, by pushing for a new referendum, just going to ignore the wishes of the million+ Scots who voted to leave?


----------



## Junior (Jun 24, 2016)

My mate in Japan just sent this......I like what he wrote so thought I'd share

I don't understand a lot of the panic. I wish I could give the UK a big scouser style "Calm down, calm down." We're alright, it's gonna be OK. The rules we interact with Europe with will change -- in about 2 years -- but are we entering the Dark Ages? Never gonna happen. We will still sell things to Europe, they will still buy things from us. We will still go on holiday there; they will still come here. In the Information Age it is literally impossible, I think, to fight the current of culture sharing and exchange. I know being in or out of the EU will not change my sentiment to my European friends and family, or my idea of myself as an Englishman and a European. I don't need a central committee in Europe to complete that feeling, and neither should anyone. If they did, well hmm, that's a bit strange.
The UK just made a big decision, but nothing is irretrievable: when it comes to manmade human affairs, we can come back from anything.

I wouldn't worry too much about the economic stuff [because what are you gonna do; the economy is out of any one agent's hands]. People are spectacularly bad at predicting economic outcomes -- funnily enough, economists are prime suspects here; they did not save us from 2008, or any of the disasters before that -- and that is the way it should be. If anyone could predict what the system would do, it wouldn't work [because they could make all the right bets and "win" the game]. Brexit could be absolutely great in the long term. Or not. Who knows, and why speculate---as I say, our track record at predicting economic outcomes is so bad, it's instant "no sale!" territory for me when anyone, on any side, says "this is what will happen."

We had a democratic vote, Britain voted to leave the EU. I for one, cannot believe that those who voted "Remain" would now suddenly be incapable of living in the same country alongside those who voted "Leave." So many newspapers talking about a country divided, etc... We have elections every four, five years. Have done for centuries. Is the country ripped apart every election? Does it never come back together again the first Monday morning after elections? Of course not. Life goes on.

Don't be worried!


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Is Sturgeon, by pushing for a new referendum, just going to ignore the wishes of the million+ Scots who voted to leave?
		
Click to expand...


What, in favour of the many more who voted to Remain?.. Goddamn you Democracy, Goddamn you all to hell


----------



## pendodave (Jun 24, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			You would have had more chance in getting those flying pigs to break formation.
		
Click to expand...

And there's the rub.

It must be a possibility that the EU now changes for the better to avoid similar votes in other countries. And we won't still be in it to enjoy the benefits... Not sure if that's exactly a catch-22, but I can't help thinking that all sides would have benefited from a more far sighted and flexible approach to the 'opt out' negotiations earlier this year.

The trouble is, the rich and powerful very rarely suffer the consequences of their grandstanding.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But we'll have Â£8.5bn MORE to do it with than we had yesterday
		
Click to expand...

I genuinely hope that's true. However, bearing in mind the economic hit we've just taken, there is a chance that we might not...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But we'll have Â£8.5bn MORE to do it with than we had yesterday
		
Click to expand...

And you trust our government to spend that wisely 

And I have no doubt that figure will reduce because of leaving the EU - have you not seen how it hit the markets this morning ?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			A change was needed Bob. But in the opposite direction, I'm afraid. More international cooperation, not less.
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately that usually goes hand in hand with handing yet more power to big business...

Which is what many like myself find hard to stomach...


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2016)

Can't help now it's all done and dusted that we missed a trick with Europe. Whatever nation is proposing an EU change, a quick round of Jeux Sans Frontiers and if they win or get enough points playing their joker it gets passed. Too late for us now of course


----------



## MarkE (Jun 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			What, in favour of the many more who voted to Remain?.. Goddamn you Democracy, Goddamn you all to hell 

Click to expand...

Exactly. Where do you stop? The eu referendum was a clear result to leave. Are you going to force those Scots back into the eu, after they voted out?


----------



## Rooter (Jun 24, 2016)

Was there ever a more important time to 'buy british' whether thats cars, insurance, food, technology, services? If we want to flourish as a nation, the people need to support the business! So bye bye BMW and Hello Jaguar (i know they are not owned in the UK, but they employ a heck of a lot of people!) Just an example...

But also a time to implement better taxation regimes for international business (read Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But we'll have Â£8.5bn MORE to do it with than we had yesterday
		
Click to expand...

Nice to hear Farage saying earlier that the claim that the NHS could benefit from Â£350m was a mistake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And I have no doubt that figure will reduce because of leaving the EU - have you not seen how it hit the markets this morning ?
		
Click to expand...

It was always going to hit the markets LP. Yesterday the pound reached $1.5 at one point due to market speculation and people trying to get rich off the result so it always did have further to fall. Looking at the markets this morning the last figures I saw was the the FTSE was down around 5% compared to 10% in Spain and Italy and generally around 7-8% in the rest of Europe. The markets recovered after 2008 and they will recover again after this. They might have a bit further to fall before they bounce back but bounce back they certainly will as people realise that there is money to be made at the share prices being offered and start buying again. To look at the markets the day after the result and use it to suggest a longer term trend or to say "I told you so" is pointless.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It was always going to hit the markets LP. Yesterday the pound reached $1.5 at one point due to market speculation and people trying to get rich off the result so it always did have further to fall. Looking at the markets this morning the last figures I saw was the the FTSE was down around 5% compared to 10% in Spain and Italy and generally around 7-8% in the rest of Europe. The markets recovered after 2008 and they will recover again after this. They might have a bit further to fall before they bounce back but bounce back they certainly will as people realise that there is money to be made at the share prices being offered and start buying again. To look at the markets the day after the result and use it to suggest a longer term trend or to say "I told you so" is pointless.
		
Click to expand...


I'm just glad that I'm going All-Inclusive next month....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Is Sturgeon, by pushing for a new referendum, just going to ignore the wishes of the million+ Scots who voted to leave?
		
Click to expand...

And if Indyref2 is called by Westminster in the years to come - those who voted NO first time round can vote NO again.  And Scotland stays 'left'


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting development.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/24/scotland-n-ireland-can-stay-in-eu-says-merkel-ally/

Click to expand...

What am I supposed to be looking at here? It's all pretty much the same stuff thats been on the BBC website all morning.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But we'll have Â£8.5bn MORE to do it with than we had yesterday
		
Click to expand...

No we won't. With the devaluation of the currency back to 1985 levels and the worst drop in FTSE in ages we have lost more money in total than we have ever put into the EU cumulatively. 

We now have far less to spend, and if we fall into recession unemployment rises,  then tax revenues fall whilst welfare expenditure rises, leading to more cuts.


----------



## StuartD (Jun 24, 2016)

Have to admire those that are saying we need to accept the result and move on. Tell you what though, it certainly won't be easy going over the next few months if the Indy referendum is anything to go by, Scotland still remains bitterly divided almost 2 years later.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			in fact it was the under 30s who voted us out,
		
Click to expand...

Not in my househould. Daughter aged 25, Son aged 27, and twin boys at 19 all voted "in".


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

StuartD said:



			Have to admire those that are saying we need to accept the result and move on. Tell you what though, it certainly won't be easy going over the next few months if the Indy referendum is anything to go by, Scotland still remains bitterly divided almost 2 years later.
		
Click to expand...

You're dead right, Stuart. And now the bold Nicola is going to reopen all those wounds so things are only going to get worse.


----------



## ADB (Jun 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I'm just glad that I'm going All-Inclusive next month.... 

Click to expand...

check for gob in your buffet though


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			No we won't. *With the devaluation of the currency back to 1985 levels* and the worst drop in FTSE in ages we have lost more money in total than we have ever put into the EU cumulatively. 

We now have far less to spend, and if we fall into recession unemployment rises,  then tax revenues fall whilst welfare expenditure rises, leading to more cuts.
		
Click to expand...

So much scaremongering and speculation. The statement in bold is meant to scare us but the people making it conveniently forgot to mention that the Â£ is trading against the $ at just 1c lower than it was at the end of February. 

The exchange rates and markets will bounce back, this drop was always on the cards if we voted out so no great surprise.


----------



## hovis (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And you trust our government to spend that wisely 

And I have no doubt that figure will reduce because of leaving the EU - have you not seen how it hit the markets this morning ?
		
Click to expand...

The markets are already showing small signs of recovery and its still Early afternoon.   Even the bbc lass said it was getting the attention of traders


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nice to hear Farage saying earlier that the claim that the NHS could benefit from Â£350m was a mistake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

Click to expand...


----------



## bobmac (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			No we won't. With the devaluation of the currency back to 1985 levels and the worst drop in FTSE in ages we have lost more money in total than we have ever put into the EU cumulatively.
		
Click to expand...

And that will never change?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Usual warning about rude words.  But very pertinent.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...d-that-up-didnt-i-says-cameron-20160624109749


----------



## Berger (Jun 24, 2016)

hovis said:



			The markets are already showing small signs of recovery and its still Early afternoon.   Even the bbc lass said it was getting the attention of traders
		
Click to expand...

The Bank of England promising to put Â£250bn into the economy might have something to do with that.


----------



## Lump (Jun 24, 2016)

Just for all the doubters. The GDP dropped to $1.38 back in feb this year. As per the norm, its all bloody hyperbole from the lefties that run news corps.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

Lump said:



			Just for all the doubters. The GDP dropped to $1.38 back in feb this year. As per the norm, its all bloody hyperbole from the lefties that run news corps.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on, I could have sworn it was the right wing that control the media? Can we please make up our minds.


----------



## Berger (Jun 24, 2016)

Lump said:



			Just for all the doubters. The GDP dropped to $1.38 back in feb this year. As per the norm, its all bloody hyperbole from the lefties that run news corps.
		
Click to expand...

Rupert Murdoch is a lefty?!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

And so it begins.... Morgan Stanley moving 2000 jobs from London to Dublin or Frankfurt.


----------



## Lump (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hang on, I could have sworn it was the right wing that control the media? Can we please make up our minds.
		
Click to expand...




Berger said:



			Rupert Murdoch is a lefty?!
		
Click to expand...

my bad, typing on the iPhone


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

drive4show said:



			So much scaremongering and speculation. The statement in bold is meant to scare us but the people making it conveniently forgot to mention that the Â£ is trading against the $ at just 1c lower than it was at the end of February. 

The exchange rates and markets will bounce back, this drop was always on the cards if we voted out so no great surprise.
		
Click to expand...

Â£ against â‚¬ is up 2cents since 8:00am this morning, although down 6cents from midnight last night.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My children did not say the older generation should not vote - they just rather hoped that they'd vote with future generations in mind and maybe take on board what the current younger generations would want.  And not vote for their own short-term (hoped for) benefit.
		
Click to expand...

People in there 50s are not looking at short term benefits (I hope) as I would hope to have at least another 30 years left in me.

I look forward and like all other voters, do what I hope will be best for me and those around me. As I have no crystal ball that's all I can do.

What I'm not is a defeatist, I accept what has happened and will now do all I can were I can make it work.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

Lump said:



			Just for all the doubters. The GDP dropped to $1.38 back in feb this year. As per the norm, its all bloody hyperbole from the lefties that run news corps.
		
Click to expand...

Sterling began to drop earlier this year due to uncertainty around Brexit. It then recovered over the last month as global markets incorrectly predicted the result. It has since crashed. It is a fact that Sterling in 2016 is at its weakest Vs the dollar in over 10 years and that at one point reached 1985 levels. Not hyperbole, a fact. 

It is also a fact that more money will be lost on the markets today than  any other day in history, more than the credit crunch, 9/11 and so on. 

Again, call it scaremongering, call it hyperbole, call it whatever you want. But they're facts,  and it will take years to recover from it. Ironically it's the working class that will get hit first, as they always do.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And so it begins.... Morgan Stanley moving 2000 jobs from London to Dublin or Frankfurt.
		
Click to expand...

Friend is a lawyer in London - multinational Corp deals in the pipeline have been pulled - a number of them into the multi millions for UK companies.


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And so it begins.... Morgan Stanley moving 2000 jobs from London to Dublin or Frankfurt.
		
Click to expand...

Fair chance this could be boom time in Dublin, may even end up there myself.......


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

For those that are taking in the financial markets stories....I'm sitting infront of my Bloomberg terminal and I can tell you that the FTSE has dropped back to the level it was at LAST TUESDAY.  All this garbage of 1985 levels blah blah blah what an absolute load of lies.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			Fair chance this could be boom time in Dublin, may even end up there myself....... 

Click to expand...

#Roadtrip????

Always nice to have somewhere to stay


----------



## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			#Roadtrip????

Always nice to have somewhere to stay 

Click to expand...

Always nice to look on the bright side eh mate.  I'm still looking for one


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 24, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			Always nice to look on the bright side eh mate.  I'm still looking for one 

Click to expand...

Big believer in silver linings mate...  Good chance I'll have the kids at home forever now.. Won't have to worry about them moving out..


----------



## fundy (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And so it begins.... Morgan Stanley moving 2000 jobs from London to Dublin or Frankfurt.
		
Click to expand...

more scare that appears not to be true

@CNBCnow
JUST IN: Morgan Stanley spokesperson tell CNBC that a report circulating that says it is moving about 2,000 jobs out of London is not true


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 24, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			For those that are taking in the financial markets stories....I'm sitting infront of my Bloomberg terminal and I can tell you that the FTSE has dropped back to the level it was at LAST TUESDAY.  All this garbage of 1985 levels blah blah blah what an absolute load of lies.
		
Click to expand...

If you have shares in banks or other financials then its been a very very bad day....


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 24, 2016)

Stand by for a week of ridiculous headlines, claims, counter-claims and total blollocks by all with their own agendas.    Or in other words, more of what we have had for the past month.   This is the worst case of hysteria since I first listened to Def Leppard's song before I truly appreciated it.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			If you have shares in banks or other financials then its been a very very bad day....
		
Click to expand...

Not really, it's all short term. Just need to ride out the storm.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

fundy said:



			more scare that appears not to be true

@CNBCnow
JUST IN: Morgan Stanley spokesperson tell CNBC that a report circulating that says it is moving about 2,000 jobs out of London is not true
		
Click to expand...

There will be more before the weekend. People would rather go by FB than wait for factual news.

Leavers will be blamed for everything that goes wrong, let's hope the Rugby Teams all do well this weekend.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			If you have shares in banks or other financials then its been a very very bad day....
		
Click to expand...

I agree, however, I'm happy to report that My Stocks and Shares ISA as gone up Â£4!


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			If you have shares in banks or other financials then its been a very very bad day....
		
Click to expand...

theoretically yes.



drive4show said:



			Not really, it's all short term. Just need to ride out the storm.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.  It's not a loss....until you sell them.


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 24, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			theoretically yes.



Exactly.  It's not a loss....until you sell them.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed and if youre brave then there is an opportunity to make some decent cash....


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Indeed and if youre brave then there is an opportunity to make some decent cash....
		
Click to expand...

The exact conversation I had with my wife this morning.  For everyone panic selling there are those making their money.  Good for them.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There will be more before the weekend. People would rather go by FB than wait for factual news.

Leavers will be blamed for everything that goes wrong, let's hope the Rugby Teams all do well this weekend. 

Click to expand...

That particular one was from the bbc website. Normally a reliable source but maybe not today.


----------



## pendodave (Jun 24, 2016)

fundy said:



			more scare that appears not to be true

@CNBCnow
JUST IN: Morgan Stanley spokesperson tell CNBC that a report circulating that says it is moving about 2,000 jobs out of London is not true
		
Click to expand...

10s of thousands of city jobs have been lost since the 2008. I've no doubt that many more were going to go whatever the outcome of the vote. There are going to be weeks of this nonsense and not one bit of it will help us going forward.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

This maybe isn't a great surprise given the geographic results breakdown but at work here I haven't yet spoken to a single person who voted for leave. There's much consternation from my FB friends as well. In fact this forum is the only contact I have with brexiters.

There's a real feeling of shock and disappointment today and a wee bit of anger too. I don't know how it's going to develop. I'm no fan of the SNP and, even now, wouldn't vote for an independent Scotland but it seems to me that it's wide open now. Lots have said they voted no in 2014 but would consider changing that if there was another vote.

I think it would be irresponsible to have such a vote before the brexit settlement and ongoing eu landscape were known but the SNP will have no such scruples. I reckon they'd get a yes vote if they organised it soon. Just terribly sad about it all.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland aren't the only ones Fairwaydodger.....there are now rumours of France and the Netherlands holding similar referendums.  In all honestly this could be the beginning of the end for the EU.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That particular one was from the bbc website. Normally a reliable source but maybe not today.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble with today's media with 24 hr news, poor journalist who never check their source before publishing just to be first.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This maybe isn't a great surprise given the geographic results breakdown but at work here I haven't yet spoken to a single person who voted for leave.
		
Click to expand...

They are like Daily Mail and Sun readers, not willing to admit it  - well until they forget and start quoting from them.


----------



## DRW (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			This maybe isn't a great surprise given the geographic results breakdown but at work here I haven't yet spoken to a single person who voted for leave. There's much consternation from my FB friends as well. In fact this forum is the only contact I have with brexiters.

There's a real feeling of shock and disappointment today and a wee bit of anger too. I don't know how it's going to develop. I'm no fan of the SNP and, even now, wouldn't vote for an independent Scotland but it seems to me that it's wide open now. Lots have said they voted no in 2014 but would consider changing that if there was another vote.

I think it would be irresponsible to have such a vote before the brexit settlement and ongoing eu landscape were known but the SNP will have no such scruples. I reckon they'd get a yes vote if they organised it soon. Just terribly sad about it all.
		
Click to expand...

Could I ask how you take that more of a % of Scotland actually voted to remain part of the EU than to remain part of GB ?

Is Scotland more pro Europe than England in that sense, or is it Scotland is still Scottish, than what is happening with 'foreign labour/immigration' in many parts of England ? (please don't take that as racist, as it is not meant to read that way and if it does please don't, but I know from clients I speak to, this a major issue for them and has been for probably more than a decade tbh, just growing year on year and no action taken by governments)

I thought it was very weird and strange vote.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Could I ask how you take that more of a % of Scotland actually voted to remain part of the EU than to remain part of GB ?

Is Scotland more pro Europe than England in that sense, or is it Scotland is still Scottish, than what is happening with 'foreign labour/immigration' in many parts of England ? (please don't take that as racist, as it is not meant to read that way and if it does please don't, but I know from clients I speak to, this a major issue for them and has been for probably more than a decade tbh, just growing year on year and no action taken by governments)

I thought it was very weird and strange vote.
		
Click to expand...

We're more anti-English than anti-European. Which is to say our nationalism rages at a different target and blames a different "oppressor" for our problems.


----------



## DRW (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're more anti-English than anti-European. Which is to say our nationalism rages at a different target and blames a different "oppressor" for our problems.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, certainly agrees with the Scottish vote, cheers was interested to hear. :thup:

PS Still be coming on holiday to Scotland, love it up there, lovely countryside, people and golf courses.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Slab said:



			Pretty sure subscription websites are not an interesting development of the referendum outcome 

I'd need to pay to read about the point you're trying to make
		
Click to expand...

It is the first line [before paywall]


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Thanks for the reply, certainly agrees with the Scottish vote, cheers was interested to hear. :thup:

PS Still be coming on holiday to Scotland, love it up there, lovely countryside, people and golf courses.

Click to expand...

Remember your passport


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're more anti-English than anti-European.
		
Click to expand...

The majority of us Welsh voted out. Are we on the anti list as well now


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We could have changed the eu. We could have stayed and played our part to make it better for ourselves, our European neighbours and the rest of the world.

We didn't. In truth, we never properly engaged with it. We're a small minded, insular country that grows more irrelevant in international terms with each passing government. 

We had a great chance to mean something in the modern world and we turned our backs.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on FD.
The legacy to our young who cannot afford a house or a pension, have a high level of job insecurity, and will be left with a debt that their grandchildren will be paying for.

Pretty poor show from 'my my,my,my greedy generation'


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			The majority of us Welsh voted out. Are we on the anti list as well now 

Click to expand...

You're asking the wrong person, I've long been more anti-Welsh than anti-English


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're asking the wrong person, I've long been more anti-Welsh than anti-English 

Click to expand...

At last we agree on something


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 24, 2016)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Thanks for the reply, certainly agrees with the Scottish vote, cheers was interested to hear. :thup:

PS Still be coming on holiday to Scotland, love it up there, lovely countryside, *people* and golf courses.

Click to expand...

Did you not read the anti-English bit? oo:


----------



## IanG (Jun 24, 2016)

Sad to wake up in Rome this morning to the Brexit news. Not feeling very proud to be British today. My only consolation is that I'm still sceptical the UK will actually go through with leaving. Already the article 50 trigger for the 2 year divorce term has been delayed into October - perfectly sensibly of course. Once the civil service get going on making up the lists of things to be negotiated, not only with Brussels but with other countries, and the associated costs, soft pedalling will be the order of the day and lets see if we're actually out in 4 years time. I know many will think I'm mad, but I just can't see the real powerbrokers (corporations and the political establishement both in the UK and Europe) letting Brexit happen. After all 52/48 is not too far from 49/51.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Sterling began to drop earlier this year due to uncertainty around Brexit. It then recovered over the last month as global markets incorrectly predicted the result. It has since crashed. It is a fact that Sterling in 2016 is at its weakest Vs the dollar in over 10 years and that at one point reached 1985 levels. Not hyperbole, a fact. 

It is also a fact that more money will be lost on the markets today than  any other day in history, more than the credit crunch, 9/11 and so on. 

Again, call it scaremongering, call it hyperbole, call it whatever you want. But they're facts,  and it will take years to recover from it. Ironically it's the working class that will get hit first, as they always do.
		
Click to expand...

Where will all this money be lost today?   Shares are only affected when you sell them and who would do that on a day like today?     The Footsie 100 made a big drop this morning but is back to the levels of last week.

Dont Panic!


----------



## pendodave (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spot on FD.
The legacy to our young who cannot afford a house or a pension, have a high level of job insecurity, and will be left with a debt that their grandchildren will be paying for.
		
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but didn't we already have all that before yesterday?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Where will all this money be lost today?   Shares are only affected when you sell them and who would do that on a day like today?     The Footsie 100 made a big drop this morning but is back to the levels of last week.

Dont Panic!
		
Click to expand...

Check the FTSE250 for a worse look at the world


----------



## Region3 (Jun 24, 2016)

IanG said:



			Sad to wake up in Rome this morning to the Brexit news. Not feeling very proud to be British today. My only consolation is that I'm still sceptical the UK will actually go through with leaving. Already the article 50 trigger for the 2 year divorce term has been delayed into October - perfectly sensibly of course. Once the civil service get going on making up the lists of things to be negotiated, not only with Brussels but with other countries, and the associated costs, soft pedalling will be the order of the day and lets see if we're actually out in 4 years time. I know many will think I'm mad, but I just can't see the real powerbrokers (corporations and the political establishement both in the UK and Europe) letting Brexit happen. After all 52/48 is not too far from 49/51.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but from what I've read we have no say in the exit negotiations. The terms of us leaving are decided upon by the other 27 nations, and we are still governed by EU law for at least 2 years with no say in them whatsoever.

I realise we will have fresh negotiations trying to replace the deals we will be losing, and I really think this can work but we must have a strong prime minister and negotiators.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.
		
Click to expand...

Here here. Could not agree with this more.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.
		
Click to expand...

This is all very much your opinion not fact.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

drive4show said:



			This is all very much your opinion not fact.
		
Click to expand...

Which specific points do you disagree with?

Damage to the environment?
Taking advantage of cheap housing to the detriment of current social housing stock
Free education being removed?
Golden pensions disappearing?
Bankrupting the country?


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Which specific points do you disagree with?

Damage to the environment?
Taking advantage of cheap housing to the detriment of current social housing stock
Free education being removed?
Golden pensions disappearing?
Bankrupting the country?
		
Click to expand...

they are just born into this generation. There's nothing to show that any other generation would have acted differently if it had been "their time". 

Out of curiosity. What age range falls into this bracket? Because I'd gauge 30-50? Then there's all the old racists that are to blame for being narrow. Indeed and voting out too. 

So so what are we meant to do. Leave the country to the 20 somethings?


----------



## IanG (Jun 24, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but from what I've read we have no say in the exit negotiations. The terms of us leaving are decided upon by the other 27 nations, and we are still governed by EU law for at least 2 years with no say in them whatsoever.

I realise we will have fresh negotiations trying to replace the deals we will be losing, and I really think this can work but we must have a strong prime minister and negotiators.
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that once we announce we are leaving, under article 50 we have a two year period during which we would make any arrangements deals etc that we could. At the end of the two years period we exit the EU with whatever has been agreed by then and nothing else. There is no compulsion on any EU country to strike any deal with us on anything, but self interest would suggest there would be some deals struck in some areas. Of course the EU can probably extend the two year period if both parties wanted it. 

Much water and twists and turns under the bridge to come before this plays out finally. My contention is that at the end of it all we'll still be in the EU  - maybe after another referendum.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 24, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			they are just born into this generation. There's nothing to show that any other generation would have acted differently if it had been "their time". 

Out of curiosity. What age range falls into this bracket? Because I'd gauge 30-50? Then there's all the old racists that are to blame for being narrow. Indeed and voting out too. 

So so what are we meant to do. Leave the country to the 20 somethings?
		
Click to expand...

Actually the "baby boomers" are the group you have referred to as "old racists"  (I have avoided that term). They are those born in the generation following WW2, so I would estimate at 50-70. The generation that has benefited the most. I'm not saying that any other generation would have acted differently, but can still criticise if IMO they are again acting selfishly, to the detriment of my, and future generations.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.
		
Click to expand...

23% of 18yr olds voted out, and its not until the demographic reaches 43yrs old do you see a 50/50 split. However, that doesn't take into account the regional differences. Typically, a 43 yr old still has another 30+yrs to live, and something like another 25yrs to work. There are 27 million voters over 45, and 32 million voters between 18 and 45. 

Have you got any more media led rubbish you want to share?

#Remainvoter


----------



## mikevet (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh dear - pound already dropping , markets being affected - let's hope all those financial experts are wrong 

The younger people in the country voting to stay - *older people ( 60 upwards ) voting to leave*. The nation totally split in half. Some people will be celebrating - let's hope they wait until all those promises are delivered because they need to deliver now
		
Click to expand...

As an 'older people' I take issue with this sort of generalisation - I'm 66 and I voted REMAIN as, on balance, I felt it would make things more secure for my children and grand-children. OK, I was a leaver until a week or so ago, but I changed my mind after some careful thought and I was impressed by David Cameron on the Question Time programme, as he argued beyond the narrow confines of the Remain argument (Unlike the Leave proponents, who just seemed to go round and round their repeated mantras). I don't see why he should be expected to resign as PM as he has delivered on his manifesto promise, but the decision is his to make.

Like many others, I am disappointed, but we now need to pull together to make the best of things and look forwards. I am, however, somewhat disappointed at the attitudes of some older voters on TV today, who obviously didn't think beyond their own narrow-mindedness and just trotted out the old fallacies about immigrants taking our jobs and benefits and Europe never providing anything good to the UK....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Latest statement from Boris just released.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

mikevet said:



			As an 'older people' I take issue with this sort of generalisation - I'm 66 and I voted REMAIN as, on balance, I felt it would make things more secure for my children and grand-children. OK, I was a leaver until a week or so ago, but I changed my mind after some careful thought and I was impressed by David Cameron on the Question Time programme, as he argued beyond the narrow confines of the Remain argument (Unlike the Leave proponents, who just seemed to go round and round their repeated mantras). I don't see why he should be expected to resign as PM as he has delivered on his manifesto promise, but the decision is his to make.

Like many others, I am disappointed, but we now need to pull together to make the best of things and look forwards. I am, however, somewhat disappointed at the attitudes of some older voters on TV today, who obviously didn't think beyond their own narrow-mindedness and just trotted out the old fallacies about immigrants taking our jobs and benefits and Europe never providing anything good to the UK....
		
Click to expand...

I'm not far behind you in age, and in the reasons I voted to Remain. 

I applaud you in your call to pull together. Alternatively, we could go through the bile that was spouted by some in Scotland, post indy ref.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

And a more serious one from 'the kids' at an education festival. Hope the coffin dodgers are feeling proud of themselves


----------



## GB72 (Jun 24, 2016)

I still believe that this is not over yet and a second referendum will come about for all the wrong reasons. 
There are too many other countries in Europe with opposition parties breathing down the necks of those in power and calling for their own exit vote. The fact that we have actually voted out will add more fuel to that fire and those currently in power will be running scared. Self preservation is an ugly trait in most politicians and I can see a revised deal being put on the table once the current round of EU sabre rattling has ended. The deal will include controls on immigration and the payment of benefits. 
The problem that the EU has always had is that it preaches about increased unity and integration then the member states to a man vote for self interest over what is good for Europe as a whole.
This whole saga is a long way from over yet.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			23% of 18yr olds voted out, and its not until the demographic reaches 43yrs old do you see a 50/50 split. However, that doesn't take into account the regional differences. Typically, a 43 yr old still has another 30+yrs to live, and something like another 25yrs to work. There are 27 million voters over 45, and 32 million voters between 18 and 45. 

Have you got any more media led rubbish you want to share?

#Remainvoter
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea what point your post is trying to make, or what statements in my post you are trying to refute? If anything the stats you produce highlight the fact that it is predominantly the older vote that have taken us out of the EU. 

#Remainvoter


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And a more serious one from 'the kids' at an education festival. Hope the coffin dodgers are feeling proud of themselves 

View attachment 19854

Click to expand...

Better "the tyranny of the majority" than being subject to the wishes and wants of the minority, whatever their age and that from a disappointed Remainer who is concerned for his grandchildren.

Democracy may not be perfect but it sure beats any alternative we have ever seen.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I have no idea what point your post is trying to make, or what statements in my post you are trying to refute? If anything the stats you produce highlight the fact that it is predominantly the older vote that have taken us out of the EU. 

#Remainvoter
		
Click to expand...

50% of the voting population are below 45 yrs old. 

"Irreversible damage to the environment..." get a grip. Go and talk to the Chinese, the Indians or the US if you have a problem with the environment. Social mobility, cheap housing... maybe if you were a baby boomer you'd know what it was like. Hardly a car in the road, yet so many have two now. A week in a caravan, and now its two weeks in Spain or Florida. A rented TV, and now its 2 or 3 including what can be found in the kids room.

I've watched docks gates open and most coming out on bikes. I've seen 12 buses lined up at ICI gates, the same at British Steel. And I remember when the working week was 48 hours and then the required overtime, not optional. Easy life...you haven't a clue. And that pension *some* of them have they've worked damned hard for.

I might not agree with the OUT vote but I respect it, and the democracy that is behind it. There's been lots of talk of racism, but it appears ageism is ok.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Actually the "baby boomers" are the group you have referred to as "old racists"  (I have avoided that term). They are those born in the generation following WW2, so I would estimate at 50-70. The generation that has benefited the most. I'm not saying that any other generation would have acted differently, but can still criticise if IMO they are again acting selfishly, to the detriment of my, and future generations.
		
Click to expand...

You'll say thanks if you find they've actually done you a big favour??


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.
		
Click to expand...

Before entering into a rant like that you really should check your facts.

The baby-boomers suffered an austere childhood in the fifties, rampant inflation in the seventies, interest rates of 15% on mortgages in the late eighties and the vast majority did not benefit from final salary pensions.

But if your pre-conceived ideas make you feel better about yourself , fine!

#Remainvoter


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 24, 2016)

So we now need to have a voting system where each person's opinion is skewed depending on how old/young they are?     What a complete pile of blollocks.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're asking the wrong person, I've long been more anti-Welsh than anti-English 

Click to expand...

A true Scot - ends up anti everything in the end


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			A true Scot - ends up anti everything in the end 

Click to expand...

I'm really not very anti, in fairness. Just had a bad relationship with a Welsh burd.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Before entering into a rant like that you really should check your facts.

The baby-boomers suffered an austere childhood in the fifties, rampant inflation in the seventies, interest rates of 15% on mortgages in the late eighties and the vast majority did not benefit from final salary pensions.

But if your pre-conceived ideas make you feel better about yourself , fine!

#Remainvoter
		
Click to expand...

We really can't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Takes the biscuit when I read that golfers are blaming the boomers for all the problems in the environment. Suggest those with these concerns should give up. I presume they get to the course in their car as well.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Latest statement from Boris just released.

View attachment 19853

Click to expand...

You realise there are some on here that believe everything they read :lol:


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Takes the biscuit when I read that golfers are blaming the boomers for all the problems in the environment. Suggest those with these concerns should give up. I presume they get to the course in their car as well.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, after all it's not as if we baby-boomers spent the money on bringing up those that are now 30-45!


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			50% of the voting population are below 45 yrs old. 

"Irreversible damage to the environment..." get a grip. Go and talk to the Chinese, the Indians or the US if you have a problem with the environment. Social mobility, cheap housing... maybe if you were a baby boomer you'd know what it was like. Hardly a car in the road, yet so many have two now. A week in a caravan, and now its two weeks in Spain or Florida. A rented TV, and now its 2 or 3 including what can be found in the kids room.

I've watched docks gates open and most coming out on bikes. I've seen 12 buses lined up at ICI gates, the same at British Steel. And I remember when the working week was 48 hours and then the required overtime, not optional. Easy life...you haven't a clue. And that pension *some* of them have they've worked damned hard for.

I might not agree with the OUT vote but I respect it, and the democracy that is behind it. There's been lots of talk of racism, but it appears ageism is ok.
		
Click to expand...

Of course the environment is a global issue. But just because someone else does something worse, does that exonerate you from blame? We were an awful polluter between 1960 and 1990, significantly contributing to the global crisis. Deny Science all you want, or again deflect blame elsewhere. 

Rather than disagree with any of my other points, you've just made excuses for them. At no point did I claim boomers had an easy life, but that doesn't give them the right to rob future generations of the same opportunities in mobility, housing, pensions, care, education or bankrupt the country in the way they did.

You're saying 'Look what we've done for you, youve got a big TV, a car and a trip to Spain'. Thanks, but I think we'd rather take free education, a safe public pension, minimal national debt and access to cheap housing (which we can sell on for huge financial gain) that was afforded to the boomers - even if we did have to work 48 hours (oh wait, many of us do). Instead, we have Â£50,000 debt at 21 years old, no hope of a public pension, a scary national debt and an inaccessible housing market (but thanks for the Spanish holiday when you had to endure a caravan) 

And I trust the ageist comment isn't levelled at me, but I accept it's definitely been a general theme today which is a shame. I despair the reasons many of them voted leave which were in my opinion selfish, but I'm not trying to deny them a right to vote or devalue it below mine. I respect the result and am a firm believer in democracy  but that doesn't mean I cant have a good old fashioned moan at the outcome!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Better "the tyranny of the majority" than being subject to the wishes and wants of the minority, whatever their age and that from a disappointed Remainer who is concerned for his grandchildren.

Democracy may not be perfect but it sure beats any alternative we have ever seen.
		
Click to expand...

Gives the impression that democracy doesn't appear to be taught in our schools anymore.

I do find it strange that all these figures are coming out when no age survey or exit poll was carried out but if we are to believe the figures it appears that more of the youth failed to get out of the pub in time to vote.

If the older generation are to be known of the boomers are this young generations to be known as the wanters.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

drive4show said:



			This is all very much your opinion
		
Click to expand...

...and mine.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...and mine.
		
Click to expand...

Which drives it closer to the non fact end of the scale, best publish it wings to make it so.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

God you can be such a weary Willie. [or choosing to constantly ignore facts]
ONE bloomin click on Google. OK


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Which specific points do you disagree with?

Damage to the environment?
Taking advantage of cheap housing to the detriment of current social housing stock
Free education being removed?
Golden pensions disappearing?
Bankrupting the country?
		
Click to expand...

All of them.  You appear to have a xenophobic and narrow minded opinion towards your elders.  Do you hold the same opinion with your parents.

You seem to have no understanding of how hard life was for the vast majority of people growing up after WW2.  Most of us had next to nothing and our parents struggled to put a meal on the table.  When you consider wages in the 1950's/60's/70's/80's people couldn't dream of the luxuries you take for granted today, life was frugal and simple, there were no benefits to help you out, it was work your bits off or get nothing.   When I see the lifestyles of young people today most of us would not even dream of those achievements.   University Education was something most would not even consider as we needed to get out to work to subsidise the pittance our parents lived on.   Great numbers of people lived in slum rented accommodation as children as their family houses had been destroyed by bombing during the war.  You could only dream that a Council House would become available to improve your life.

I got on the housing ladder by working 60 hours a week including shifts, Building Societies would not consider you for a mortgage unless you had saved regularly with them for a number of years.

You just don't have a clue when you make those uneducated remarks.    I don't deny you your nice lifestyle as a young person but don't blame my generation for the ills of the world o r having an opinion based on our life experiences.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

Fair comment I feel


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Before entering into a rant like that you really should check your facts.

The baby-boomers suffered an austere childhood in the fifties, rampant inflation in the seventies, interest rates of 15% on mortgages in the late eighties and the vast majority did not benefit from final salary pensions.

But if your pre-conceived ideas make you feel better about yourself , fine!

#Remainvoter
		
Click to expand...

So which facts are you disputing? Nothing you've said challenges the points I made, merely deflects it and makes excuses. So in response to your points... 

Wage growth was high in the 70s
House prices were comparably so much lower in the 80s than today that even with high interest rates the % of income on housing was far lower
Triple locked pensions - I shouldn't need to go further than that!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Of course the environment is a global issue. But just because someone else does something worse, does that exonerate you from blame? We were an awful polluter between 1960 and 1990, significantly contributing to the global crisis. Deny Science all you want, or again deflect blame elsewhere. 

Rather than disagree with any of my other points, you've just made excuses for them. At no point did I claim boomers had an easy life, but that doesn't give them the right to rob future generations of the same opportunities in mobility, housing, pensions, care, education or bankrupt the country in the way they did.

You're saying 'Look what we've done for you, youve got a big TV, a car and a trip to Spain'. Thanks, but I think we'd rather take free education, a safe public pension, minimal national debt and access to cheap housing (which we can sell on for huge financial gain) that was afforded to the boomers - even if we did have to work 48 hours (oh wait, many of us do). Instead, we have Â£50,000 debt at 21 years old, no hope of a public pension, a scary national debt and an inaccessible housing market (but thanks for the Spanish holiday when you had to endure a caravan) 

And I trust the ageist comment isn't levelled at me, but I accept it's definitely been a general theme today which is a shame. I despair the reasons many of them voted leave which were in my opinion selfish, but I'm not trying to deny them a right to vote or devalue it below mine. I respect the result and am a firm believer in democracy  but that doesn't mean I cant have a good old fashioned moan at the outcome!
		
Click to expand...


By all means have a moan but the above is probably the biggest load of twaddle I have read throughout this debate.

If you are working 48 hours a week I am surprised you have time for golf or posting on forums. Â£50,000 debt at 21? Yet more are going into higher education.

Public or State sector pensions never have been sustainable at the levels promised.Just look at how much of your local council's expenditure is on pensions.

Cheap housing? In 1973 I bought a small semi in the South West for Â£9600, six times my salary. So whilst it was cheaper than today's prices in relative terms not that much cheaper. And by the way prices were even then significantly higher in the London region, one of the reasons why my then employer was relocating from the City to Bristol.

I suggest you stop looking for a reason why you did not get your own way and blaming everything upon your parents and their generation.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Which specific points do you disagree with?

Damage to the environment?
*How is this the fault of the boomer generation? Current policies are very much biased towards being green*

Taking advantage of cheap housing to the detriment of current social housing stock*
No idea what you are referring to. This is a small overcrowded island, housing is always going to be at a premium.*

Free education being removed?*
I assume you mean university places? They certainly weren't free when I left school, only the priviliged got to go in 'my day'. Free/cheap university places were introduced then taken away again so your argument falls down on that one.*

Golden pensions disappearing?
*Assume you mean final salary pensions? They have to be sustainable and because of the drain on resources (ie increased welfare benefits costs) they aren't. Part of the issue is increased costs to house immigrants and provide an NHS for them that they haven't contributed to.*

Bankrupting the country?
*That has been going on for generations, not something you can put down to one generation*

Click to expand...

Your last point reminded me of a brilliant quote by the head of Aston Martin this morning. He stated they would have to increase productivity and work more efficiently to compete in Europe. Well no **** Sherlock!!!! It just summed up a British 'that will do' attitude.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

I said at the beginning that those on the road to retirement should not be allowed to vote. Perhaps I should have said that this was a decision that would affect for 20years ... But I upset a lot of people. Now the stats suggest that the older generation has influx this decision. 
I did look across at the 64 yr old work colleague who voted leave and he tried to justify his position. He kept saying interest rates are still low. His son rang him up and gave him an ear full. I just said I think you're pension pot has just gone through the floor, looks like another 10years service for you. 
So really all was very short sighted... Let's just watch the investment and exchange rates. They are a true measure of the situation. 
Cameron was right to go, I don't blame him in his efforts to disentangle himself from a farcical situation. Step up Boris, let's put you in the history books for causing mass recession, people dying in hospitals and a generation of homelessness


----------



## vkurup (Jun 24, 2016)

Went to the Barbers and he mentioned he had customers who voted Leave for a laugh as they thought it will never happen.  I thought he was having a laugh. I spoke to a friend after lunch and she was distraught.  Apparently she voted Leave because she thought it would never win and we will send EU a strong message. Now she can't believe or accept that Leave won.  Her business is going to be hit as they export to EU 

What planet do these people come from? Don't they know how a referendum works? These people deserve the results.  Dear world, I am ashamed of my friend and the consequences of her actions. She did not 'mean it'.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

Yes I have a lot of that from leave voters .... Really stupid


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

A disgrace that the 16/17 year olds were not allowed to vote in this referendum.

I asked my 10 year old grandson what he thought of the result..........his reply 'Dumb, dumb and dumber, we don't even get a chance to re-join'


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I said at the beginning that those on the road to retirement should not be allowed to vote. Perhaps I should have said that this was a decision that would affect for 20years ... But I upset a lot of people. Now the stats suggest that the older generation has influx this decision. 
I did look across at the 64 yr old work colleague who voted leave and he tried to justify his position. He kept saying interest rates are still low. His son rang him up and gave him an ear full. I just said I think you're pension pot has just gone through the floor, looks like another 10years service for you. 
So really all was very short sighted... Let's just watch the investment and exchange rates. They are a true measure of the situation. 
Cameron was right to go, I don't blame him in his efforts to disentangle himself from a farcical situation. Step up Boris, let's put you in the history books for causing mass recession, people dying in hospitals and a generation of homelessness
		
Click to expand...

Nice sentiments, shame they are not based on facts. So the markets and currencies may tumble short term but they will bounce back. People dying in hospitals......surely not?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

On the bright side .........UKIP NO MORE.:lol:


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

have you 20 years left or more?


----------



## Stuart_C (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I said at the beginning that those on the road to retirement should not be allowed to vote. Perhaps I should have said that this was a decision that would affect for 20years ... But I upset a lot of people. Now the stats suggest that the older generation has influx this decision. 
I did look across at the 64 yr old work colleague who voted leave and he tried to justify his position. He kept saying interest rates are still low. His son rang him up and gave him an ear full. I just said I think you're pension pot has just gone through the floor, looks like another 10years service for you. 
So really all was very short sighted... Let's just watch the investment and exchange rates. They are a true measure of the situation. 
*Cameron was right to go, I don't blame him in his efforts to disentangle himself from a farcical situation*. Step up Boris, let's put you in the history books for causing mass recession, people dying in hospitals and a generation of homelessness
		
Click to expand...

It was him that started  this "farcical situation", no sympathy for him. He's created this next step into the unknown, but one things for sure he won't have to go the food bank to feed his kids.


----------



## SteveJay (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Better "the tyranny of the majority" than being subject to the wishes and wants of the minority, whatever their age and that from a disappointed Remainer who is concerned for his grandchildren.

Democracy may not be perfect but it sure beats any alternative we have ever seen.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, what do these kids think would be better, maybe ban over 65's from voting or give *kids* two votes......its a bloody democracy we live in. If you don't like it then you now have a clear choice - go.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			It was him that started  this "farcical situation", no sympathy for him. He's created this next step into the unknown, but one things for sure he won't have to go the food bank to feed his kids.
		
Click to expand...

I was being kind ... He was pretty silly letting the public vote. Especially since they voted him in!! Now he is trying not to have his name smeared with this disaster. Don't worry I won't forget.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I said at the beginning that those on the road to retirement should not be allowed to vote. Perhaps I should have said that this was a decision that would affect for 20years ... But I upset a lot of people. Now the stats suggest that the older generation has influx this decision. 
I did look across at the 64 yr old work colleague who voted leave and he tried to justify his position. He kept saying interest rates are still low. His son rang him up and gave him an ear full. I just said I think you're pension pot has just gone through the floor, looks like another 10years service for you. 
So really all was very short sighted... Let's just watch the investment and exchange rates. They are a true measure of the situation. 
Cameron was right to go, I don't blame him in his efforts to disentangle himself from a farcical situation. Step up Boris, let's put you in the history books for causing mass recession, people dying in hospitals and a generation of homelessness
		
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly then you are a Firefighter and as such will have a better pension than the majority of us and it will be topped up by us tax payers.   If I am correct you will be retiring earlier than most of your peers so I guess in your own skewed reasoning not worthy of a vote either.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

God you can be such a weary Willie. [or choosing to constantly ignore facts]
ONE bloomin click on Google. OK
		
Click to expand...

And for someone who only likes polls that support his cause you can be one as well. So he polled 12000 + people but doesn't say from where and from the millions that voted he comes up with fact, pull the other one.

Just because you can google it doesn't make it so - Google wings and you'll see what I mean


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

According to Channel 4 News the UK has lost more money in the last 8 hours than in 15 years of EU contributions.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And for someone who only likes polls that support his cause you can be one as well. So he polled 12000 + people but doesn't say from where and from the millions that voted he comes up with fact, pull the other one.

Just because you can google it doesn't make it so - Google wings and you'll see what I mean 

Click to expand...

I told you to google it about 100 posts ago and you still wittered on and on and on about 'no exit polls available'.
You also need to take a look at Ashcrofts methods.


----------



## Fish (Jun 24, 2016)

I went to Morrisons to do my shopping this morning and the cashier asked this foreign couple in front of me  if they wanted any help packing their bags today.... I thought jeezus, this is happening quicker than I expected....&#128540;


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And for someone who only likes polls that support his cause you can be one as well. So he polled 12000 + people but doesn't say from where and from the millions that voted he comes up with fact, pull the other one.

Just because you can google it doesn't make it so - Google wings and you'll see what I mean 

Click to expand...

Not only that but if you drill down his figures with regard to votes by party support, age, employment status then it is hard to see how the overall 52% 48% result came about.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I was being kind ... *He was pretty silly letting the public vote. Especially since they voted him in!!* Now he is trying not to have his name smeared with this disaster. Don't worry I won't forget.
		
Click to expand...

Erm.....maybe he got voted in because the Tories pledged in their manifesto to have an EU referendum


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I told you to google it about 100 posts ago and you still wittered on and on and on about 'no exit polls available'.
You also need to take a look at Ashcrofts methods.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I work on facts not Google. Google is not always your friend.

If you are so certain that they are facts perhaps you could say,

Why the under 30s turn out was lower than the national average.
Why the turnout in Scotland was lower than the national average.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to Channel 4 News the UK has lost more money in the last 8 hours than in 15 years of EU contributions.

Click to expand...

I've just looked through Channel 4 News and cant find a reference to your assertion.   Also it would be comparing apples to pears if it did. The money paid into the EU is tax payers funds, money on the markets is not from the exchequer.


----------



## Stuart_C (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I was being kind ... He was pretty silly letting the public vote. Especially since they voted him in!! Now he is trying not to have his name smeared with this disaster. Don't worry I won't forget.
		
Click to expand...

All of this seems to have been swept under the carpet though. He got us into this mess, he should have the balls to stand up and sort it out.

There's going to be a lot of over reaction as well, hopefully it doesn't cause too much damage. We'll see.


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to Channel 4 News the UK has lost more money in the last 8 hours than in 15 years of EU contributions.

Click to expand...

if they checked my shares they would say I've lost money too, but I haven't sold any  shares so  haven't lost anything in reality, it fact I'm still way in profit since I attained them. When I sell them I can calculate it. Channel 4, I assume haven't stated how much money the UK gained before today.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If I remember correctly then you are a Firefighter and as such will have a better pension than the majority of us and it will be topped up by us tax payers.   If I am correct you will be retiring earlier than most of your peers so I guess in your own skewed reasoning not worthy of a vote either.
		
Click to expand...

Nope not a fire fighter. I work for a large profitable company that may choose to leave these shores. My future is at risk, I will probably be 70 something when I can draw my state pension. The other savings I have are at risk, my son's future is at risk.... I will be supporting the " spoonies" crowd, you know the English that don't work and have never worked.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2016)

They have a point.....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			They have a point.....

View attachment 19860

Click to expand...

They might also be pushing for a referendum shortly.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope not a fire fighter. I work for a large profitable company that may choose to leave these shores. My future is at risk, I will probably be 70 something when I can draw my state pension. The other savings I have are at risk, my son's future is at risk.... I will be supporting the " spoonies" crowd, you know the English that don't work and have never worked.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like the rest of us then. What makes you the special one.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope not a fire fighter. I work for a large profitable company that may choose to leave these shores. My future is at risk, I will probably be 70 something when I can draw my state pension. The other savings I have are at risk, my son's future is at risk.... I will be supporting the " spoonies" crowd, you know the English that don't work and have never worked.
		
Click to expand...

Be positive they may not choose to leave.  Increases in life expectancy will mean people working into later life, it's just a factor of the way we evolve, your Grandad probably had a life expectancy of around 60, his Grandad around 50 and his around 45.  You will probably enjoy the same or more number of years in retirement as they did.

When we can become a little more realistic with the numbers of people we need to immigrate here than the 'Spoonies' may well find themselves facing the prospect of working or getting nothing.   Now that would be a refreshing change for the better.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

The FT have published an article with research that states those regions of the UK that are most dependent on EU Trade were some of the heaviest leave voters. 

If the EU play hardball on trade negotiations and their local economy and trade tanks as a result of their short sightedness they will inevitably look to London for a handout. Good luck getting that from an unelected Tory govt they've just helped put in charge!


----------



## vkurup (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			The FT have published an article with research that states those regions of the UK that are most dependent on EU Trade were some of the heaviest leave voters. 

If the EU play hardball on trade negotiations and their local economy and trade tanks as a result of their short sightedness they will inevitably look to London for a handout. Good luck getting that from an unelected Tory govt they've just helped put in charge!
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry.. once we leave we will have a lot of money to hand around. The figure of 350m comes to mind... Unless that is a lie, surely not..


----------



## chrisd (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			So which facts are you disputing? Nothing you've said challenges the points I made, merely deflects it and makes excuses. So in response to your points... 

Wage growth was high in the 70s
House prices were comparably so much lower in the 80s than today that even with high interest rates the % of income on housing was far lower
Triple locked pensions - I shouldn't need to go further than that!
		
Click to expand...


You clearly didn't live in those times. Wage growrh was only high because we had rampant inflation, often around 12% p/a, believe me we weren't any better off. We didn't have the luxuries you take for granted, phones, computers, cars etc etc. My first mortgage in 1975 took 80% of my total take home pay and that mortgage was often around 12%. We didn't have spare money or holidays abroad, or in fact most of the luxuries of life you now enjoy. 

Triple licked pensions are a product of the last few years and we're having to wait longer than ever promised to get that pension. 

You clearly haven't got a clue how much more difficult life was back in the 60's to the 2000's than it is today!


----------



## delc (Jun 24, 2016)

Maybe the Remain campaign should have concentrated on the positive benefits of being in the EU, rather than the negative scare stories about the effect of leaving it (which unfortunately are now coming true)!  :mmm:


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			The FT have published an article with research that states those regions of the UK that are most dependent on EU Trade were some of the heaviest leave voters. 

If the EU play hardball on trade negotiations and their local economy and trade tanks as a result of their short sightedness they will inevitably look to London for a handout. *Good luck getting that from an unelected Tory govt they've just helped put in charge!*

Click to expand...

 The Tory government *were* elected. The PM will change but the government are the same.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

delc said:



			Maybe the Remain campaign should have concentrated on the positive benefits of being in the EU, rather than the negative scare stories about the effect of leaving it (which unfortunately are now coming true)!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree, a terrible campaign by all associated with it. It was like they got advice from Arsenal on how to blow a lead and get out of Europe!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			So which facts are you disputing? Nothing you've said challenges the points I made, merely deflects it and makes excuses. So in response to your points... 

Wage growth was high in the 70s
House prices were comparably so much lower in the 80s than today that even with high interest rates the % of income on housing was far lower
Triple locked pensions - I shouldn't need to go further than that!
		
Click to expand...

What are these triple locked pensions?

I am afraid that as a retired Private Sector employee I and the vast majority of others have no experience of such things unlike yourself in the State sector.

Wage growth in the 70's did not for most keep pace with inflation and whilst housing costs were lower in real terms they were not that much lower. 

Blaming the boomers is a convenient excuse for those of your generation who had never experienced any hardship until the sadly necessary austerity programme that has followed the global financial crisis in 2008.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Completely agree, a terrible campaign by all associated with it. It was like they got advice from Arsenal on how to blow a lead and get out of Europe!
		
Click to expand...

Well those of us in the Remain campaign received no advice or help from the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			A bit like the rest of us then. What makes you the special one.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't vote out .... I know what side my bread is buttered thank you.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

Ross61 said:



			The Tory government *were* elected. The PM will change but the government are the same. 


Click to expand...

Im a Tory voter, but I certainly didn't vote for Boris Johnson to be PM with Gove and Grayling at the top table. Nor will they continue with the Dave and George manifesto on which the party was elected. 

FWIW, I fully expect an election within the year. With one of the cornerstones of their campaign to leave being that much of the powers at the EU are unelected, they'll be under severe pressure to ensure they're 'elected'. And with Labour still so far behind and in disarray there's almost no risk associated with it.


----------



## delc (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Completely agree, a terrible campaign by all associated with it. It was like they got advice from Arsenal on how to blow a lead and get out of Europe!
		
Click to expand...

  :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well those of us in the Remain campaign received no advice or help from the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.
		
Click to expand...

Again, completely agree. Corbyn was a disgrace in his inept leadership and comments, and Cameron was far too negative. My post clearly stated 'all associated with it'


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Again, completely agree. Corbyn was a disgrace in his inept leadership and comments, and Cameron was far too negative. My post clearly stated 'all associated with it'
		
Click to expand...

The only difference between them was that we, at least, all knew on which of the two sides Cameron lay. I was amazed by the number of Labour supporters I encountered who thought the party line was in favour of Leave.


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

chrisd said:



			You clearly didn't live in those times. Wage growrh was only high because we had rampant inflation, often around 12% p/a, believe me we weren't any better off. We didn't have the luxuries you take for granted, phones, computers, cars etc etc. My first mortgage in 1975 took 80% of my total take home pay and that mortgage was often around 12%. We didn't have spare money or holidays abroad, or in fact most of the luxuries of life you now enjoy. 

Triple licked pensions are a product of the last few years and we're having to wait longer than ever promised to get that pension. 

You clearly haven't got a clue how much more difficult life was back in the 60's to the 2000's than it is today!
		
Click to expand...


i agree totally.
The young of today are obviously scared about the future just the same as we were years ago. 
 In the mid-late 80's I was newly married with 2 babies/toddlers.i had a small house with a mortgage that the interest rate went up by whole percentage points several times a year and even on the same day! The Tory govt believed by hiking up the interest rates curbed spending. Yes the govt controlled interest rates pre 1997!
 I had no luxuries my only TV was a small portable I bought when I was 21.
I had no holidays, clothes had to last. I had do do all my own maintenance on my old banger of a car. Going out living it up and getting blind drunk was not a good idea financially.
 I paid my mortgage and muddled through.
we lived in a boom and bust economical cycle for years. Always the poorest got hit the most, although I count myself lucky to have been fully employed throughout. 

 I was scared of my future, but things are never as bad as they seem. We got used to the turmoil of the 80s and therefore not so scared now of the latest turmoil.

 I believe we will come through this ok and be thankful we got out of the hole the EU are digging. When things are not right in the hole you have dug.. STOP DIGGING!!!!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Im a Tory voter, but I certainly didn't vote for Boris Johnson to be PM with Gove and Grayling at the top table. Nor will they continue with the Dave and George manifesto on which the party was elected. 

FWIW, I fully expect an election within the year. With one of the cornerstones of their campaign to leave being that much of the powers at the EU are unelected, they'll be under severe pressure to ensure they're 'elected'. And with Labour still so far behind and in disarray there's almost no risk associated with it.
		
Click to expand...

I was talking to my parents about this ... It's quite early in this term for an election. Is it not a worry that UKIP will rise?


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Im a Tory voter, but I certainly didn't vote for Boris Johnson to be PM with Gove and Grayling at the top table. Nor will they continue with the Dave and George manifesto on which the party was elected. 

FWIW, I fully expect an election within the year. With one of the cornerstones of their campaign to leave being that much of the powers at the EU are unelected, they'll be under severe pressure to ensure they're 'elected'. And with Labour still so far behind and in disarray there's almost no risk associated with it.
		
Click to expand...

So you voted for a party that a cornerstone of their manifesto was a guaranteed EU referendum. How do you feel about causing today's situation?


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I was talking to my parents about this ... It's quite early in this term for an election. Is it not a worry that UKIP will rise?
		
Click to expand...

I can't see UKIP reaching anywhere close to the support they had. Why would anyone vote for a party that want out of Europe as virtually only policy when we already are?


----------



## Stuart_C (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Completely agree, a terrible campaign by all associated with it. It was like they got advice from Arsenal on how to blow a lead and get out of Europe!
		
Click to expand...

Thread winner :whoo: :whoo:


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

Ross61 said:



			i agree totally.
The young of today are obviously scared about the future just the same as we were years ago. 
 In the mid-late 80's I was newly married with 2 babies/toddlers.i had a small house with a mortgage that the interest rate went up by whole percentage points several times a year and even on the same day! The Tory govt believed by hiking up the interest rates curbed spending. Yes the govt controlled interest rates pre 1997!
 I had no luxuries my only TV was a small portable I bought when I was 21.
I had no holidays, clothes had to last. I had do do all my own maintenance on my old banger of a car. Going out living it up and getting blind drunk was not a good idea financially.
 I paid my mortgage and muddled through.
we lived in a boom and bust economical cycle for years. Always the poorest got hit the most, although I count myself lucky to have been fully employed throughout. 

 I was scared of my future, but things are never as bad as they seem. We got used to the turmoil of the 80s and therefore not so scared now of the latest turmoil.

 I believe we will come through this ok and be thankful we got out of the hole the EU are digging. When things are not right in the hole you have dug.. STOP DIGGING!!!!
		
Click to expand...

so are you saying that moving to the Bank of England controlling the interest rates was better than some Tory politician? 
We opted out of monetary union and the Bank of England has been still in control... Not sure what your issues are? 
I was there in the 80s as well, yes we have had it good since but that was under labour government. Then the Tories came back and we have had some dire economic policies ... And don't start up about the recession caused by labour, I think you will find that was the banks selling bad debts and refusing to foot the bill.


----------



## TheDiablo (Jun 24, 2016)

Ross61 said:



			So you voted for a party that a cornerstone of their manifesto was a guaranteed EU referendum. How do you feel about causing today's situation?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely fine thanks. I believe the previous govt delivered an exceptional economic performance in the circumstance they inherited, and trusted them to continue that recovery (which to date they had). They then delivered on a promise in their manifesto and campaigned to remain in Europe (albeit badly) 

Only if Cameron and Osborne had turned and promoted leave would I feel betrayed by them.

My vote in the GE certainly didn't 'cause'  us to leave the EU!!!


----------



## fundy (Jun 24, 2016)

for those of you blaming the older ones for ruining it for the younger ones, could you tell me what proportion of 18-25 year olds voted?


----------



## Ross61 (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			so are you saying that moving to the Bank of England controlling the interest rates was better than some Tory politician? 
We opted out of monetary union and the Bank of England has been still in control... Not sure what your issues are? 
I was there in the 80s as well, yes we have had it good since but that was under labour government. Then the Tories came back and we have had some dire economic policies ... And don't start up about the recession caused by labour, I think you will find that was the banks selling bad debts and refusing to foot the bill.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood my point. I was against interest rates being controlled by govts. They just put up rates by knee jerk reactions. I am a Labour voter and 1997 was a great year. BoE got the job of controlling rates and minimum wage was implemented, a policy that tories were vehemently opposed to, predicticting doom and gloom for businesses and jobs.


----------



## Paperboy (Jun 24, 2016)

fundy said:



			for those of you blaming the older ones for ruining it for the younger ones, could you tell me what proportion of 18-25 year olds voted?
		
Click to expand...

Think they where below the national average turn out.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			so are you saying that moving to the Bank of England controlling the interest rates was better than some Tory politician? 
We opted out of monetary union and the Bank of England has been still in control... Not sure what your issues are? 
I was there in the 80s as well, yes we have had it good since but that was under labour government. Then the Tories came back and we have had some dire economic policies ... And don't start up about the recession caused by labour, I think you will find that was the banks selling bad debts and refusing to foot the bill.
		
Click to expand...

So Labour's tax & spend (and borrow) policies had nothing to do with it. Certainly the banks were complicit but the Blair/Brown Governments did nothing to control those institutions.

Indeed they accelerated the policies of de-regulation begun by the previous Conservative regime.

Post 2010 our economic performance has bettered that of many of our competitors largely as a result of facing up to reality.


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 24, 2016)

5 years fromnow you'll all still be moaning about the same old stuff. 

The NHS, schools, roads... blah blah


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			5 years fromnow you'll all still be moaning about the same old stuff. 

The NHS, schools, roads... blah blah
		
Click to expand...

Immigration?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So Labour's tax & spend (and borrow) policies had nothing to do with it. Certainly the banks were complicit but the Blair/Brown Governments did nothing to control those institutions.

Indeed they accelerated the policies of de-regulation begun by the previous Conservative regime.

Post 2010 our economic performance has bettered that of many of our competitors largely as a result of facing up to reality.
		
Click to expand...

Blair/Brown increased welfare spending by 40% and opened the mass immigration gate.   For anyone to say they didn't make a major contribution to the countries financial ills is naive in the extreme.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Blair/Brown increased welfare spending by 40% and opened the mass immigration gate.   For anyone to say they didn't make a major contribution to the countries financial ills is naive in the extreme.
		
Click to expand...

Utter rubbish... When your in A and E are you going to ask for an English doctor or nurse?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

Sturgeon's call for a second referendum and talk of her putting the legal framework in place is confusing me.  It is my belief that only the UK Parliament can authorise a Scottish referendum for independence.    I guess the same goes for Northern Ireland.

I just don't get the constitutional thinking in Scotland.  They are part of the UK and have taken part in a UK referendum but they take the attitude that if the national vote is not in line with their own vote it is somehow wrong and unfair.   Is Scotland really in a position to become an independent country that can meet the requirements of EU membership, I think they are still saying they would want to use the Pound with the Bank of England remaining the Lender of last Resort!  How on earth could they expect the Bank of England to bail out their financial issues which could be massive.   Surely they would have to accept the Euro if they joined the EU?    I think they would also soon become a Greece 2 with huge austerity measures being imposed by Germany.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Blair/Brown increased welfare spending by 40% and opened the mass immigration gate.   For anyone to say they didn't make a major contribution to the countries financial ills is naive in the extreme.
		
Click to expand...




Think it's time to move on now and understand that the financial ills of the country and were down to the actions of the country and the actions of the irresponsible people who allowed people to spend beyond their means and then be unable to afford it 

It's time to stop looking to blame immigration for ills of the country when for as long as I have been alive the country itself and its ruling party have done a very good job of messing it up themselves 

Right now the country has decided to leave the EU - that itself is a thought that many need to digest - people need to stop gloating and celebrating because nothing has changed yet and no promises have been fulfilled - if those promises are fulfilled then the celebrations and gloating can begin and they better be fulfilled because right now because of the closeness of the vote our nations have been ripped apart and if promises don't become fulfilled that bitterness will just get worse and will ruin the UK beyond repair. 

It's now time for everyone to work their backsides off the make this work - many people need to stop scrounging of the state and get to work doing those jobs that they deemed "below them" - it's time for people to buy British but also not to be priced out. 

We couldn't be more finely balanced right now - it was a momentus day - whether that's a good thing or not has yet to be decided


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Utter rubbish... When your in A and E are you going to ask for an English doctor or nurse?
		
Click to expand...

"Utter Rubbish"   I see we have descended into the debating style of the gutter.

Thats a rather odd way to support the case of Labours disastrous management of the UK economy!

Are you suggesting the NHS is staffed mainly by immigrant Doctors and Nurses?  Do you believe it's a better policy to rob people from poor countries that have invested their hard earned money training Doctors and Nurses for us to go and rob them rather than training our own?     To me that is a National disgrace that we should be ashamed of.

However, we don't need mass immigration to rob other countries of their medical staff, if you do that you have to accept the masses of non skilled people as well.    Spend our money on training first so we can use organic growth to supply our services and offer meaningful employment to young people rather than pushing through graduates in Yurt Construction who then work in KFC and Mickey Dees.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 24, 2016)

We may never know if it was the right, or wrong decision. By voting out, we have changed the landscape. Staying in was no guarantee of stasis, leaving is no guarantee of prosperity. The EU as we know it could change hugely as a result of UK exit. It may not continue at all, if other countries follow what we have started. There is no right,  or wrong. There will be no 'I told you so', as there is no way of knowing what the alternative outcome would bring. Yes, the next few weeks will bring some short term dips, but as the markets realise that nothing much has really changed, it will recover. What is needed is to put aside the who voted what, the bitterness, the over reactions, and get on with life. It is the only one we have.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			"Utter Rubbish"   I see we have descended into the debating style of the gutter.

Thats a rather odd way to support the case of Labours disastrous management of the UK economy!

Are you suggesting the NHS is staffed mainly by immigrant Doctors and Nurses?  Do you believe it's a better policy to rob people from poor countries that have invested their hard earned money training Doctors and Nurses for us to go and rob them rather than training our own?     To me that is a National disgrace that we should be ashamed of.

However, we don't need mass immigration to rob other countries of their medical staff, if you do that you have to accept the masses of non skilled people as well.    Spend our money on training first so we can use organic growth to supply our services and offer meaningful employment to young people rather than pushing through graduates in Yurt Construction who then work in KFC and Mickey Dees.
		
Click to expand...

Nope - jump to your own conclusions, you assume every immigrant is financial burden... I cannot hold a debate or conversation with you &#9995; speak to the hand!


----------



## delc (Jun 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigration?
		
Click to expand...

Mass immigration was a tacit policy of the last New Labour Government, not the EU. And said immigrants were encouraged to have lots of kids by Gordon Brown's Child Tax Credits. That is why our schools are now bursting at the seams, and our roads are gridlocked at school run times!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 19861

Think it's time to move on now and understand that the financial ills of the country and were down to the actions of the country and the actions of the irresponsible people who allowed people to spend beyond their means and then be unable to afford it 

It's time to stop looking to blame immigration for ills of the country when for as long as I have been alive the country itself and its ruling party have done a very good job of messing it up themselves 

Right now the country has decided to leave the EU - that itself is a thought that many need to digest - people need to stop gloating and celebrating because nothing has changed yet and no promises have been fulfilled - if those promises are fulfilled then the celebrations and gloating can begin and they better be fulfilled because right now because of the closeness of the vote our nations have been ripped apart and if promises don't become fulfilled that bitterness will just get worse and will ruin the UK beyond repair. 

It's now time for everyone to work their backsides off the make this work - many people need to stop scrounging of the state and get to work doing those jobs that they deemed "below them" - it's time for people to buy British but also not to be priced out. 

We couldn't be more finely balanced right now - it was a momentus day - whether that's a good thing or not has yet to be decided
		
Click to expand...

I agree with just about everything you say here.   My previous post was not about this though but in response to a previous point made. Posting that attachment does go against your post though as you are opening up the subject for further debate.


----------



## Berger (Jun 24, 2016)

delc said:



			Mass immigration was a tacit policy of the last New Labour Government, not the EU. And said immigrants were encouraged to have lots of kids by Gordon Brown's Child Tax Credits. That is why our schools are now bursting at the seams, and our roads are gridlocked at school run times!  

Click to expand...

Are you expecting the doors to be closed and no one else let in when we leave the EU? If that's the case you might be in for a bit of a shock.


----------



## delc (Jun 24, 2016)

Berger said:



			Are you expecting the doors to be closed and no one else let in when we leave the EU? If that's the case you might be in for a bit of a shock.
		
Click to expand...

No, quite the contrary. I was just pointing out that the last New Labour Government allowed lots of immigrants into the country in the hope that they would vote for them and to "rub the faces of the Tories in diversity".  Didn't work though. 

On the subject of the Labour Party, allowing grass roots members to vote for their party leader has so far produced the hopeless Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn, both pretty much unelectable. Surely it would be better if the PLP elected their leader?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope - jump to your own conclusions, you assume every immigrant is financial burden... I cannot hold a debate or conversation with you &#9995; speak to the hand!
		
Click to expand...

If you are incapable of debating a subject then just say so and we can leave it.  If you can only use comments like the above 'over reaction' then I agree, you would be much better to keep your emotive opinions on the back of your hand.


----------



## Snelly (Jun 24, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			When all is said and done and the dust is settled it's just something else for my generation to pick up the pieces from. Hopefully the legacy we leave will be far better than what we inherit from the boomers. 

Not content with irreversible damage to the environment, taking advantage of cheap housing for personal greed, social mobility, free education and golden pensions, risking more than they could afford to lose and bankrupting the country, the baby boomers had to have one last dig to keep us down. 

'Broken Britain' that they so like to claim is ironically down to them and the greed of their generation. Not the immigrants or the EU that they've tried to deflect the blame to.
		
Click to expand...

Laughable. Millenials really do need to grow some balls.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 25, 2016)

Well...

I have just read through the devil knows how many pages on this this thread, and i fear it merely confirms what i always thought. Democracy is a fragile thing and requires reasoning, understanding and tolerance in order to function properly. What I've seen through this thread is misinformation, misunderstanding, misconception, belligerence, intolerance, gullibility, naivity, dogmatism, chauvinism, bloodymindedness, intransigence  and other things i don't know the words for. The perfect mirror to the real world.

We haven't had a proper democracy for a long time and i don't  see us getting one soon.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

Well I pick my holiday money up from Tesco tonight.
Ordered it on Tuesday and getting 30 more euros than if I'd ordered it today.
That'll do


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Well I pick my holiday money up from Tesco tonight.
Ordered it on Tuesday and getting 30 more euros than if I'd ordered it today.
That'll do


Click to expand...

Out of interest only - what rate did you get??


----------



## delc (Jun 25, 2016)

Listening to most of the pro-Brexit politicians, including Boris Johnson, and my mostly elderly friends who voted Leave, I get the distinct impression of 'OMG, what have we done!'. I think they weren't really expecting to win, but hoped to get enough votes to fire a warning shot across the bows of the EU. Now they have won they have split the country between England and Scotland, North and South, old and young, and forced the resignation of a very able Prime Minister. Not to mention pretty much destabilising the EU and the whole Western World. Russia and ISIS must be loving thisl. It is interesting that the majority of the over 45's (excluding myself) voted Leave, despite enjoying a lifetime of relative peace and prosperity in the EU, whereas the majority of younger people voted to Remain!  :mmm:


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

backwoodsman said:



			Out of interest only - what rate did you get??
		
Click to expand...

1.268810


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

delc said:



			It is interesting that the majority of the over 45's (excluding myself) voted Leave, despite enjoying a lifetime of relative peace and prosperity in the EU, whereas the majority of younger people voted to Remain!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

The younger generation mostly voted "stay" because they don't know it any different and they have a future, which includes Europe.
The older generation who voted out are looking at the past through rose tinted spectacles. 
Remembering how great this country was. The "bulldog spirit".... Yeah right.
The place was a doss hole in the late 60's early 70's. The laughing stock of the world.
British Leyland, 3 day weeks, strikes, strikes, strikes.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



1.268810

Click to expand...

In which case, get yourself a Saga credit card & preload it - then get cash from cash tills. You get the full bank rate and no transaction fees. But because of the referendum effect, and its now only 1.23 you still have come out better in this instance


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

backwoodsman said:



			But because of the referendum effect, and its now only 1.23 you still have come out better in this instance
		
Click to expand...

By 30 Euro's it would seem


And I don't do credit cards.
Because I am a knob, they've got me in to trouble in the past


----------



## delc (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			The younger generation mostly voted "stay" because they don't know it any different and they have a future, which includes Europe.
The older generation who voted out are looking at the past through rose tinted spectacles. 
Remembering how great this country was. The "bulldog spirit".... Yeah right.
The place was a doss hole in the late 60's early 70's. The laughing stock of the world.
British Leyland, 3 day weeks, strikes, strikes, strikes.
		
Click to expand...

Correction, they HAD a future that included Europe. Our best hope is to get a new Prime Minister who can negotiate a new deal with the EU and then win another referendum on that.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			By 30 Euro's it would seem


And I don't do credit cards.
Because I am a knob, they've got me in to trouble in the past


Click to expand...


Ah, those naughty porn sites


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			And I don't do credit cards.
Because I am a knob, they've got me in to trouble in the past


Click to expand...

Me too - but the missus has a head on her shoulders 

Fair enough on the 30 though.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

delc said:



			Correction, they HAD a future that included Europe. .
		
Click to expand...

Typo. I did in fact mean HAD a future.
My Son, who is at Uni, is already thinking about pulling out.
He is devastated that we left.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Ah, those naughty porn sites
		
Click to expand...

If you like Bob


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Typo. I did in fact mean HAD a future.
My Son, who is at Uni, is already thinking about pulling out.
He is devastated that we left.
		
Click to expand...

I would say this genuinly sums up a great deal of the youth right now. I'm completely devastated, and it still hasn't entirely sunk in


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

Now Nigel Farage has said that the 350m won't go to the NHS and was a 'mistake' and another leading figure said that they never claimed that they would bring down immigration if we left. So can the Brexiters be challenged in court on running a false campaign and therefore annul the results and have a second referendum..




 Also the great British public have decided to educate themselves by googling 'What is EU' AFTER they voted. So we have replaced the stupid yanks in the global stupidity index


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Now Nigel Farage has said that the 350m won't go to the NHS and was a 'mistake' and another leading figure said that they never claimed that they would bring down immigration if we left. So can the Brexiters be challenged in court on running a false campaign and therefore annul the results and have a second referendum..




 Also the great British public have decided to educate themselves by googling 'What is EU' AFTER they voted. So we have replaced the stupid yanks in the global stupidity index
		
Click to expand...

Give it a rest!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			Think they where below the national average turn out.
		
Click to expand...

As was the Scotish and NI vote.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Now Nigel Farage has said that the 350m won't go to the NHS and was a 'mistake' and another leading figure said that they never claimed that they would bring down immigration if we left. So can the Brexiters be challenged in court on running a false campaign and therefore annul the results and have a second referendum..




 Also the great British public have decided to educate themselves by googling 'What is EU' AFTER they voted. So we have replaced the stupid yanks in the global stupidity index
		
Click to expand...

I think it was made clear enough that there was never a figure of Â£350m saving - the nett differential between what we pay to Europe and what we get back was Â£10 billion per year, and the EU tell us what it has to be spent on.

Let's face it, both sides of the campaign gave us horror stories, scares and false information- they are career politicians and they are masters at using words and phrases that don't exactly mean what they say. In some ways, and I wouldn't want him, Donald Trump is refreshing because he says what he says and does is from a business mans point of view not a trained political graduates, yes it's often outrageous but it's more honest.


----------



## delc (Jun 25, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Typo. I did in fact mean HAD a future.
My Son, who is at Uni, is already thinking about pulling out.
He is devastated that we left.
		
Click to expand...

He can always get a job picking fruit in the UK, after all the East Europeans have been sent home!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-with-the-financial-news-later-20160624109795


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/entire-british-empire-restored-20160624109759


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Also the great British public have decided to educate themselves by googling 'What is EU' AFTER they voted.
		
Click to expand...

Mmmm...and some were wondering why some felt that not everybody should be voting on this........

And let's not forget that this referendum is advisory and has no legal binding.
The Government don't have to go through with it and now the guy who laid the referendum out for us is going, what's to stop Westminster turning round and saying  No, we're  not doing it...especially with such a small margin of victory.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigration?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not a betting man but from past form including 2585 posts on the subject, I'm guessing that, yes, you still will be moaning about immigration.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Mmmm...and some were wondering why some felt that not everybody should be voting on this........

And let's not forget that this referendum is advisory and has no legal binding.
The Government don't have to go through with it and now the guy who laid the referendum out for us is going, what's to stop Westminster turning round and saying  No, we're  not doing it...especially with such a small margin of victory.
		
Click to expand...

Because if bojo or Gove, one of which will be PM, renage on their promise after all the crap wet have been through then they will have no political future at all. And that is all they care about.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

May I suggest the thread be closed now ?


----------



## delc (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			May I suggest the thread be closed now ?

View attachment 19864

Click to expand...

Why? It's a very important issue right now!


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-with-the-financial-news-later-20160624109795

Click to expand...

Moody's have cut the UK rating to negative. This would mean cost of raising money will soar for business. This will hit UK based business more than global companies as they can raise capital elsewhere. 
Those who specialise in turnaround, closing down, administration etc. will see an increased business. Soemone has benefited.  As they etc be careful of what you wish for... And thanks for ignoring the 'experts'


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Moody's have cut the UK rating to negative. This would mean cost of raising money will soar for business. This will hit UK based business more than global companies as they can raise capital elsewhere. 
Those who specialise in turnaround, closing down, administration etc. will see an increased business. Soemone has benefited.  As they etc be careful of what you wish for... And thanks for ignoring the 'experts'
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but they got they're country back.....


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

delc said:



			Why? It's a very important issue right now!
		
Click to expand...

Because it's done - votes have been cast and it's now time to man/women up and stop bleating on about the result - accept and respect people's vote and look to knuckle down and make it work


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

delc said:



			Why? It's a very important issue right now!
		
Click to expand...

No it's not. It's happened and the Rugby and football are on the telly and it's golf weather.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 25, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			It was him that started  this "farcical situation", no sympathy for him. He's created this next step into the unknown, but one things for sure he won't have to go the food bank to feed his kids.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			May I suggest the thread be closed now ?

View attachment 19864

Click to expand...

Why? And are you suggesting we all just roll over and accept the decision? 
I am waiting on the outcome of the VDA and auto manufacturers discussions regarding tariffs. Get that sorted and I won't be affected greatly. 
The irony will be how the leave voters will be affected.. Oh and watch out the Calais agreement is now being questioned! Oh did no one mention that in the build up?? Cheerio Canterbury, Thanet and Dover ...


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because if bojo or Gove, one of which will be PM, renage on their promise after all the crap wet have been through then they will have no political future at all. And that is all they care about.
		
Click to expand...

That assumes that one of them will be PM...Ain't necessarily so.
May could get in and throw the whole thing out...shed probably gain a lot of support judging by the gloom and doom going round.
Could be a great vote winner.....


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because it's done - votes have been cast and it's now time to man/women up and stop bleating on about the result - accept and respect people's vote and look to knuckle down and make it work
		
Click to expand...

[Hits the golden big LIKE button]

We can either sit in the corner wailing and weeping, beating our chests or we can get off our ,,,,,,, and put a good shift in.


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because it's done - votes have been cast and it's now time to man/women up and stop bleating on about the result - accept and respect people's vote and look to knuckle down and make it work
		
Click to expand...


er...just dont read it.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Why? And are you suggesting we all just roll over and accept the decision?  ...
		
Click to expand...

Ah the let's have a riot generation, let's not let a democratic vote get in the way of a good riot.

You need to move to Scotland and join the SNP.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			[Hits the golden big LIKE button]

We can either sit in the corner wailing and weeping, beating our chests or we can get off our ,,,,,,, and put a good shift in.
		
Click to expand...

Are you young enough to be suggesting such a thing.Only suggestions from the under 30s are to be considered in future.

Find yourself a good blanket and have a cup of coco &#128559;


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 25, 2016)

If Brexit is such a bad thing you have to ask why the likes of France, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy, etc are now looking to do exactly the same.


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 25, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			If Brexit is such a bad thing you have to ask why the likes of France, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy, etc are now looking to do exactly the same. 

Click to expand...

they're not


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 25, 2016)

who's doing the rolling up of the sleeves and hard work? 
Not the retired or those about to!
Thanks for encouragement really appreciate it. 
Thats why the youf aren't happy.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			If Brexit is such a bad thing you have to ask why the likes of France, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy, etc are now looking to do exactly the same. 

Click to expand...

I think if you post things like this, a link to a reliable source (I stress reliable ) should be given.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			who's doing the rolling up of the sleeves and hard work? 
Not the retired or those about to!
Thanks for encouragement really appreciate it. 
Thats why the youf aren't happy.
		
Click to expand...

Those in there 50s still have a long way to go before retirement so I think you need to start taking life's lessons into perspective.  You don't always get your own way.


----------



## fundy (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			who's doing the rolling up of the sleeves and hard work? 
Not the retired or those about to!
Thanks for encouragement really appreciate it. 
Thats why the youf aren't happy.
		
Click to expand...

maybe more of the "youf" shouldve got off their backsides and voted if the issue affects them so much more than the rest of us rather than doing nothing then moaning about the result when it doesnt go there way?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Are you young enough to be suggesting such a thing.Only suggestions from the under 30s are to be considered in future.

Find yourself a good blanket and have a cup of coco &#63023;
		
Click to expand...

Crikey! I can barely remember my 30's, and my 40's are 3 fairways away. Anyway, I must go and find my teeth before I munch my Werther's.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I think if you post things like this, a link to a reliable source (I stress reliable ) should be given.
		
Click to expand...

Its all over the web, just google Frexit, Swexit, Nexit, etc, It stands to reason if countries were split on support for the EU before Brexit that they will now likely want their own referendum too. If it happened here then it can certainly happen in other countries, especially France who are arguably more EU skeptic than us.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Its all over the web, just google Frexit, Swexit, Nexit, etc, It stands to reason if countries were split on support for the EU before Brexit that they will now likely want their own referendum too. If it happened here then it can certainly happen in other countries, especially France who are arguably more EU skeptic than us.
		
Click to expand...

That's the problem with the Web.  Anything can be put up there based on no fact or poor reporting.

We have already seen the problem with Google on this thread.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			who's doing the rolling up of the sleeves and hard work? 
Not the retired or those about to!
Thanks for encouragement really appreciate it. 
Thats why the youf aren't happy.
		
Click to expand...

A very jaundiced and disappointing view. I'm in the close to retirement bracket. I rarely work less than 60 hours a week. I'm away from home up to a week a month, but at least I have the joys of various airport departure lounges to enjoy.

Am I looking forward to retirement? I was but now I have a serious problem. I signed for the retirement home 3 weeks ago, and its in Spain. I now have the worries of residency and will I get more than 3 months a year there, loss of pension rights and access to healthcare. I suppose I could try and sell it but Spain has 25% unemployed and property isn't shifting.

Am I wailing against the situation? It is what it is. What's the point in moaning?


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 25, 2016)

With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on, it is important to realise that 28% of the 46 million people able to vote, didnt bother thats 12.8 million people. who sat on their backsides .  Wonder How many of those wailing didnt vote?

Any way, decision made, time to brush ourselves down, let the initial reactions die down and roll up our sleeves and make the best of it.

Coz thats what we do


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 25, 2016)

I may be offering a jaundiced view, but you make decisions, the consequences of those decisions have to be faced. brushing them under the carpet and saying let's move only allows you to make more poor decisions. Analyse, dissect, learn and have more sympathy for those your decision has blighted. Hopefully your next decision will be more guided.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I may be offering a jaundiced view, but you make decisions, the consequences of those decisions have to be faced. brushing them under the carpet and saying let's move only allows you to make more poor decisions. Analyse, dissect, learn and have more sympathy for those your decision has blighted. Hopefully your next decision will be more guided.
		
Click to expand...

So your opinion was the majority were wrong the day after the decision.  You have nothing but your own opinion to base this on.

Perhaps, just perhaps,  you might be wrong.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

fundy said:



			maybe more of the "youf" shouldve got off their backsides and voted if the issue affects them so much more than the rest of us rather than doing nothing then moaning about the result when it doesnt go there way?
		
Click to expand...

I have a feeling that the young British citizens will be getting off their backsides in quite a serious way this summer.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			That assumes that one of them will be PM...Ain't necessarily so.
May could get in and throw the whole thing out...shed probably gain a lot of support judging by the gloom and doom going round.
Could be a great vote winner.....
		
Click to expand...

Well she could.  But even then the conservative party would lose all credibility and be seen not to be trusted.  They could possibly get away with it as Labour is such a mess at the moment.  But if they conservatives did renege on it, all Labour would need to do is get David Milliband back, make him leader, hence beginning to regain the trust of the disaffected northerners who have migrated (oh the irony to use that word) to UKIP and voted out, and hey presto, electoral success.  

Millbank, you can have that one free, you're welcome.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have a feeling that the young British citizens will be getting off their backsides in quite a serious way this summer.
		
Click to expand...

Doubt if too many of them will be willing to get out of bed.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Nicola Sturgeon to make a statement on STV at 11.30am.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Doubt if too many of them will be willing to get out of bed.
		
Click to expand...

Very, very lazy generalisation.

This generation of kids are brilliant.
It is a pity they have to cope with such a greedy skewed older generation.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



*I may be offering a jaundiced view*, but you make decisions, the consequences of those decisions have to be faced. brushing them under the carpet and saying let's move only allows you to make more poor decisions. Analyse, dissect, learn and have more sympathy for those your decision has blighted. Hopefully your next decision will be more guided.
		
Click to expand...

Correct.  

Just calm down and let the dust settle before talking everything down and helping to create ageist divisions.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very, very lazy generalisation.

This generation of kids are brilliant.
*It is a pity they have to cope with such a greedy skewed older generation*.
		
Click to expand...

I guess you include yourself in that.    People like you who are spreading jaundiced views like that need to take a serious look at themselves.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I may be offering a jaundiced view, but you make decisions, the consequences of those decisions have to be faced. brushing them under the carpet and saying let's move only allows you to make more poor decisions. Analyse, dissect, learn and have more sympathy for those your decision has blighted. Hopefully your next decision will be more guided.
		
Click to expand...

What decision did I make that has blighted others? I voted Remain.

As for my own choices being brushed under the carpet; I think I have some very difficult decisions to make, and sitting in the corner wailing won't get them done.

Part of yesterday was spent analysing a lot of info about non-EU citizens living in Spain. And professionally, talking to my 3 counter-parts in Europe to ensure the UK arm of our oil & gas business doesn't suffer too much. Then talking to all my staff and reassuring them that I'm fully committed to keeping our Aberdeen office open.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

I think it's great that the British nation has risen up and shown that we will not be governed by an unelected elite in Brussels, out of touch with the needs of the man on the street.  We have shown them that it is time to reclaim out great land, to tell johnny foreigner to sod off and to show we do don't believe all the so called experts. We can govern ourselves, we can bring the good times back and we can put the great back into Great Britain.

Or put another way, we've transferred power 4 places down the line from left to right.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Well the day after it doesn't feel any better. I'm still angry at the vote and, dare I say it, I'm ashamed of my country today. Such a small minded, insular, backwards little tinpot nation.

It isn't over until article 50 is invoked, negotiations are complete and we are gone. Looks like there might be a general election before then and I'd expect this travesty to be the main issue. Any party running on a "let's stay after all" platform would attract a lot of support. There will certainly be plenty of debate between then and now.

Irony is I have no doubt that we'll be back in the EU one day. Maybe decades away, who knows, but this time we'll do so on a much more equal footing without all the special treatment and opt outs we've enjoyed until now.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			What decision did I make that has blighted others? I voted Remain.

As for my own choices being brushed under the carpet; I think I have some very difficult decisions to make, and sitting in the corner wailing won't get them done.

Part of yesterday was spent analysing a lot of info about non-EU citizens living in Spain. And professionally, talking to my 3 counter-parts in Europe to ensure the UK arm of our oil & gas business doesn't suffer too much. Then talking to all my staff and reassuring them that I'm fully committed to keeping our Aberdeen office open.
		
Click to expand...

Same here... We r London HQed but our focus of our growth is Europe. Great plans to grow and recruit in the UK. these r highly skilled and high paying jobs (70K+ jobs). My bosses bosses boss is based in Germany and you can sense which way we will have to go. Any suggestions on how we 'man up' and protect these jobs including mine? Our taxes feed a lot of British benefits seekers - irrespective of how they voted - should they also man up? 
Sorry if I sound bitter but I find hard done by folks who voted 'Leave' because they wanted to send a message but did not really wanted to leave. Also those who bought into the dream of the 350m and low immigration which have both being debunked.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it's great that the British nation has risen up and shown that we will not be governed by an unelected elite in Brussels, out of touch with the needs of the man on the street.  We have shown them that it is time to reclaim out great land, to tell johnny foreigner to sod off and to show we do don't believe all the so called experts. We can govern ourselves, we can bring the good times back and we can put the great back into Great Britain.

Or put another way, we've transferred power 4 places down the line from left to right.

View attachment 19865

Click to expand...

The two bounders on the right are improperly dressed


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Has anyone seen or heard from our illustrious Chancellor recently...?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone seen or heard from our illustrious Chancellor recently...?
		
Click to expand...

He has been locked away in the same box as IDS.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone seen or heard from our illustrious Chancellor recently...?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, but I'm sure there is a small part of him that is dying to say '_Told you the economy would go to %$"Â£'_


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

On a serious point I think this is a fine article looking at the reason why people voted as they did.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, but I'm sure there is a small part of him that is dying to say '_Told you the economy would go to %$"Â£'_ 

Click to expand...

Like a monkey with a typewriter he had to get something right eventually.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Same here... We r London HQed but our focus of our growth is Europe. Great plans to grow and recruit in the UK. these r highly skilled and high paying jobs (70K+ jobs). My bosses bosses boss is based in Germany and you can sense which way we will have to go. Any suggestions on how we 'man up' and protect these jobs including mine? Our taxes feed a lot of British benefits seekers - irrespective of how they voted - should they also man up? 
Sorry if I sound bitter but I find hard done by folks who voted 'Leave' because they wanted to send a message but did not really wanted to leave. Also those who bought into the dream of the 350m and low immigration which have both being debunked.
		
Click to expand...

Give it a break.  Put up or push off, we want people with a bit of backbone and belief in this country now. I don't believe you are the slightest bit sorry for sounding bitter, if you love this country then grow a pair and start doing something positive, if you don't then maybe consider going somewhere else but spare us the bleeding heart.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a pity they have to cope with such a greedy skewed older generation.
		
Click to expand...

I presume you are including yourself in that statement.

I agree it is a lazy generalisation but the figures show that the younger generation failed to appear in the numbers they had and along with the below average turnout in Scotland and NI the result might have been different.

Funny that the remainers on here blame the people that voted and hasn't turned their sense of injustice on those nearly 13 million registered voters that failed to turn out.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Actually age was not one of the the major correlation on how people voted, it was education, as this from the FT indicates.

Out of more than 100 key social characteristics, the percentage of people with a degree was the most strongly associated with the share of voters who voted Remain. Unsurprisingly, the proportion of people in jobs classified as â€œprofessional occupationsâ€ â€” generally requiring a degree equivalent qualification â€” was the next strongest.
In the recent London Mayoral Election, we carried out a similar analysis and found that areas where many people did not hold a passport â€” indicating they would not have been abroad recently â€” tended to yield high votes for the far-right Britain First party.
The same pattern emerges here. After education and occupation, the share of people not holding a passport was the next most strongly correlated characteristic with the Leave vote. It may simply be a statistical quirk that sees the same statistic emerge as a strong indicator of both support for Britain First and the Leave campaign, but it may also be that weâ€™re seeing proxy evidence of the nationalist theme that has been identified in some of Leaveâ€™s campaigning.
These three are by some way the strongest associations with the pattern of the result across the country, but two more patterns are also worth mentioning. First, earnings. Before the vote several polls identified a common finding: people intending to vote Leave were much more likely than Remain voters to say they felt Britainâ€™s economy was either stagnant or in decline.
This speaks to the widening rift in British society that many have touted as one of the key shifts that prepared the ground for Brexit. Earnings data shows that there may be some truth in this: areas with higher median incomes tended to lean Remain, whilst lower incomes leaned Leave.
And finally, age. The generational divide on Brexit has been common knowledge throughout the campaign, and is apparent in the demographic data, even if only weakly. Had turnout been higher among younger people its influence would have been even greater, but as is usually the case, there was a slight general trend for turnout to increase in line with average age.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 19865

Click to expand...

As its silly picture season


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I presume you are including yourself in that statement.

I agree it is a lazy generalisation but the figures show that the younger generation failed to appear in the numbers they had and along with the below average turnout in Scotland and NI the result might have been different.

Funny that the remainers on here blame the people that voted and hasn't turned their sense of injustice on those nearly 13 million registered voters that failed to turn out.
		
Click to expand...

If everyone who did not vote in NI and Scotland voted Remain it would not have changed the result, so no it would not have been difference.

keep digging:lol:


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Give it a break.  Put up or push off, we want people with a bit of backbone and belief in this country now. I don't believe you are the slightest bit sorry for sounding bitter, if you love this country then grow a pair and start doing something positive, if you don't then maybe consider going somewhere else but spare us the bleeding heart.
		
Click to expand...

When the team lose their jobs, I shall print this out and give them and tell them to grow a pair .. I will leave your name in so they know the source.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Give it a break.  Put up or push off, we want people with a bit of backbone and belief in this country now. I don't believe you are the slightest bit sorry for sounding bitter, if you love this country then grow a pair and start doing something positive, if you don't then maybe consider going somewhere else but spare us the bleeding heart.
		
Click to expand...

I'm also not overly loving this country at the moment, and was thinking of 'going somewhere else', possibly Europe.  But we buggered up that option now.....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			As its silly picture season 
	View attachment 19866

Click to expand...

My point was that instead of power being regained from the 'unelected elite in the EU', power has really just been transferred from one old Etonian to another. And your point in relation to Brexit is???


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Actually age was not one of the the major correlation on how people voted, it was education, as this from the FT indicates.

Out of more than 100 key social characteristics, the percentage of people with a degree was the most strongly associated with the share of voters who voted Remain. Unsurprisingly, the proportion of people in jobs classified as â€œprofessional occupationsâ€ â€” generally requiring a degree equivalent qualification â€” was the next strongest.
In the recent London Mayoral Election, we carried out a similar analysis and found that areas where many people did not hold a passport â€” indicating they would not have been abroad recently â€” tended to yield high votes for the far-right Britain First party.
The same pattern emerges here. After education and occupation, the share of people not holding a passport was the next most strongly correlated characteristic with the Leave vote. It may simply be a statistical quirk that sees the same statistic emerge as a strong indicator of both support for Britain First and the Leave campaign, but it may also be that weâ€™re seeing proxy evidence of the nationalist theme that has been identified in some of Leaveâ€™s campaigning.
These three are by some way the strongest associations with the pattern of the result across the country, but two more patterns are also worth mentioning. First, earnings. Before the vote several polls identified a common finding: people intending to vote Leave were much more likely than Remain voters to say they felt Britainâ€™s economy was either stagnant or in decline.
This speaks to the widening rift in British society that many have touted as one of the key shifts that prepared the ground for Brexit. Earnings data shows that there may be some truth in this: areas with higher median incomes tended to lean Remain, whilst lower incomes leaned Leave.
And finally, age. The generational divide on Brexit has been common knowledge throughout the campaign, and is apparent in the demographic data, even if only weakly. Had turnout been higher among younger people its influence would have been even greater, but as is usually the case, there was a slight general trend for turnout to increase in line with average age.

Click to expand...

I'd say that's about right. My Facebook is full of uni students and recent leavers complaining about their current debt having not contributed to society yet. For every teacher or Doctor university yields, there's a drop out at Tesco......

i think the key word is education, not intellect which appears missed by my friends. Far too many appear to think  that as they've studied longer than others they're opinion is more based in fact than it actually is. 

Heres as a question to the people wanting the 2nd referendum. Why weren't stipulations put in before the first one? I'd hazard it was because they had no conviction in them getting anywhere near a 60/40 win and didn't want to give the leavers a 2nd chance. 

A a vote was taken. You may not want to roll over, but that is what democracy is.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If everyone who did not vote in NI and Scotland voted Remain it would not have changed the result, so no it would not have been difference.

keep digging:lol:
		
Click to expand...

You left out the under 30s. Are you saying that is the 12 million odd who were registered to vote and didn't would not have made a difference. I apreaciate my maths aren't great but that takes the biscuit.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

It appears Scotland have left the UK and joined the EU. Must have missed that on Google .


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			My point was that instead of power being regained from the 'unelected elite in the EU', power has really just been transferred from one old Etonian to another. And your point in relation to Brexit is???
		
Click to expand...

None in the same way as yours.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-futuristic-metropolis-by-2018-20160625109816


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Actually age was not one of the the major correlation on how people voted, it was education, as this from the FT indicates.

Out of more than 100 key social characteristics, the percentage of people with a degree was the most strongly associated with the share of voters who voted Remain. Unsurprisingly, the proportion of people in jobs classified as â€œprofessional occupationsâ€ â€” generally requiring a degree equivalent qualification â€” was the next strongest.
In the recent London Mayoral Election, we carried out a similar analysis and found that areas where many people did not hold a passport â€” indicating they would not have been abroad recently â€” tended to yield high votes for the far-right Britain First party.
The same pattern emerges here. After education and occupation, the share of people not holding a passport was the next most strongly correlated characteristic with the Leave vote. It may simply be a statistical quirk that sees the same statistic emerge as a strong indicator of both support for Britain First and the Leave campaign, but it may also be that weâ€™re seeing proxy evidence of the nationalist theme that has been identified in some of Leaveâ€™s campaigning.
These three are by some way the strongest associations with the pattern of the result across the country, but two more patterns are also worth mentioning. First, earnings. Before the vote several polls identified a common finding: people intending to vote Leave were much more likely than Remain voters to say they felt Britainâ€™s economy was either stagnant or in decline.
This speaks to the widening rift in British society that many have touted as one of the key shifts that prepared the ground for Brexit. Earnings data shows that there may be some truth in this: areas with higher median incomes tended to lean Remain, whilst lower incomes leaned Leave.
And finally, age. The generational divide on Brexit has been common knowledge throughout the campaign, and is apparent in the demographic data, even if only weakly. Had turnout been higher among younger people its influence would have been even greater, but as is usually the case, there was a slight general trend for turnout to increase in line with average age.

Click to expand...





First it was claimed it was down to age, now it's down to education.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-futuristic-metropolis-by-2018-20160625109816

Click to expand...

Your going to start believing everything you Google at this rate :lol:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			I'd say that's about right. My Facebook is full of uni students and recent leavers complaining about their current debt having not contributed to society yet. For every teacher or Doctor university yields, there's a drop out at Tesco......

*i think the key word is education, not intellect which appears missed by my friends. Far too many appear to think  that as they've studied longer than others they're opinion is more based in fact than it actually is. 
*
Heres as a question to the people wanting the 2nd referendum. Why weren't stipulations put in before the first one? I'd hazard it was because they had no conviction in them getting anywhere near a 60/40 win and didn't want to give the leavers a 2nd chance. 

A a vote was taken. You may not want to roll over, but that is what democracy is.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with that.  But I'd also say that one thing that is drilled into you at university is to examine any subject from both sides and look and use fact based conclusions that stand up to scrutiny and questioning. So that is why university students *may* think they have come to a logical fact based conclusion on which way to vote. And non university educated people did not and relied more on other reasons.

 I would not dare endorse or condem that opinion, just saying that is one possible reason.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 19867


First it was claimed it was down to age, now it's down to education.
		
Click to expand...

Don't think I ever claimed it was mostly down to age on its own.  I waited for the facts from other sources before I regurgitated them as my own in an attempt to look clever. As all the best university educated people do.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Your going to start believing everything you Google at this rate :lol:
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...s/you-have-made-this-man-happy-20160624109755


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You left out the under 30s. Are you saying that is the 12 million odd who were registered to vote and didn't would not have made a difference. I apreaciate my maths aren't great but that takes the biscuit.
		
Click to expand...


Totally lost me there,  what has 12 million under 30's got do do with NI and Scots voters.
Have you any idea how many voters there are in Scotland and NI?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't think I ever claimed it was mostly down to age on its own.  I waited for the facts from other sources before I regurgitated them as my own in an attempt to look clever. As all the best university educated people do.

Click to expand...

I don't think I was claiming you did. I wrote "first it was claimed".


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It appears Scotland have left the UK and joined the EU. Must have missed that on Google .
		
Click to expand...

Seems fairly inevitable now, unfortunately.

I'm no fan of Nicola sturgeon but can't deny she's playing it perfectly. Calm but assured leadership in a crisis. In marked contrast to the omnishambles at Downing Street. A "vacuum of leadership" indeed.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...s/you-have-made-this-man-happy-20160624109755

Click to expand...

Best thing that came out of this is he's finished. After a few years weeks of chasing the media people will lose interest in the man.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Totally lost me there,  what has 12 million under 30's got do do with NI and Scots voters.
Have you any idea how many voters there are in Scotland and NI?
		
Click to expand...

Your lost anyway, there's no way back for you, your doomed.

12 million was the total number of registered voters that failed to vote within the UK.

The under 30s, NI and Scotland had a lower % turnout than England & Wales. Perhaps if they had turned out to vote the outcome might have been different.

Whats difficult to understand about that.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems fairly inevitable now, unfortunately.

I'm no fan of Nicola sturgeon but can't deny she's playing it perfectly. Calm but assured leadership in a crisis. In marked contrast to the omnishambles at Downing Street. A "vacuum of leadership" indeed.
		
Click to expand...

She is not going to risk it until she is certain she can win, she's only in it for herself like most politicians. Another lose would see her career finished and possibly the SNP going the same way as UKIP are about to go.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

As someone with only five O levels [ie of low intellect if I want to believe what some are voicing on here] and having spent the vast part of my working life at the bench rather than in front of a desk... One of the things I've learnt from the hard knocks of life is...

If an outcome isn't quite as hoped for, then whinging like a proverbial stuck pig serves no purpose... Prefer to do what I've always done... Deal with it and get on with it... Its what working folk do!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Your lost anyway, there's no way back for you, your doomed.

12 million was the total number of registered voters that failed to vote within the UK.

The under 30s, NI and Scotland had a lower % turnout than England & Wales. Perhaps if they had turned out to vote the outcome might have been different.

Whats difficult to understand about that.
		
Click to expand...

Jings I give up, do you actually read posts.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			She is not going to risk it until she is certain she can win, she's only in it for herself like most politicians. Another lose would see her career finished and possibly the SNP going the same way as UKIP are about to go.
		
Click to expand...

there will be another referendum. She's not jumping straight in but once SNP polling confirms the huge anecdotal mood swing since brexit they'll be right in there.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems fairly inevitable now, unfortunately.

I'm no fan of Nicola sturgeon but can't deny she's playing it perfectly. Calm but assured leadership in a crisis. In marked contrast to the omnishambles at Downing Street. A "vacuum of leadership" indeed.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I think there is less chance of her pulling this off now than ever before.

Why would Scots vote to join EU where they would have even less influence than Britain did?

The sensible thing to do is to wait for the dust to settle and see how things pan out before backing the right horse.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Personally I think there is less chance of her pulling this off now than ever before.

Why would Scots vote to join EU where they would have even less influence than Britain did?

The sensible thing to do is to wait for the dust to settle and see how things pan out before backing the right horse.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand the mood here. If there was an Indy ref today I don't think the result would even be in doubt. And I say that as a definite "no" voter.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think you understand the mood here.
		
Click to expand...


As the politicians didn't understand the mood 'here'...
Or, simply chose to ignore it...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			As the politicians didn't understand the mood 'here'...
Or, simply chose to ignore it...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed.... But of course some of them did understand the mood and chose to tell lies and fan the flames to suit their own personal agendas regardless of what they believed was best for the country.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed.... But of course some of them did understand the mood and chose to tell lies and fan the flames to suit their own personal agendas regardless of what they believed was best for the country.
		
Click to expand...


Doing too little too late from those that have been in a position to do something... 
Will always allow the opportunists to 'prosper'....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Scottish Government to open talks with Brussels ministers to remain in the EU.

Denmark/Greenland/Faroes as an example of existing deals.

Brussels also want UK to start Clause 50 asap........why should Boris/Nigel/George and Co. wish any delay?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings I give up, do you actually read posts.
		
Click to expand...

Yep but I'm obviously confused by your accent.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed.... But of course some of them did understand the mood and chose to tell lies and fan the flames to suit their own personal agendas regardless of what they believed was best for the country.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, her best chance is now.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 25, 2016)

More bad news from the UK today. Following the FTSE plunge and the crash in the exchange rate for the pound the price of second hand high horses has plummeted as Remain voters climbed down from them and flooded the market.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Government to open talks with Brussels ministers to remain in the EU.?
		
Click to expand...

No they haven't , they are seeking talks with ministers. There is nothing to say yet whether Brussels will enter talks at this time.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Government to open talks with Brussels ministers to remain in the EU.

Denmark/Greenland/Faroes as an example of existing deals.

Brussels also want UK to start Clause 50 asap........why should Boris/Nigel/George and Co. wish any delay?
		
Click to expand...


Doubt if Scotland alone will be able to take up all the slack in lost German car sales should Brussels chose to play hard ball..

Irrespective of your hopes there will be compromises from both sides...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Agree, her best chance is now.
		
Click to expand...

Not what I was driving at, of course, but I take your point.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd agree with that.  But I'd also say that one thing that is drilled into you at university is to examine any subject from both sides and look and use fact based conclusions that stand up to scrutiny and questioning. So that is why university students *may* think they have come to a logical fact based conclusion on which way to vote. And non university educated people did not and relied more on other reasons.

 I would not dare endorse or condem that opinion, just saying that is one possible reason.

Click to expand...

I take that on board. I still think some of the students will have struggled to study the subject fully, done their degrees, worked part time and enjoyed themselves in the evenings. What with their schedules so busy a large portion couldn't make it to the polls. 

I I think it's human that if you have an opinion, no matter how much you read to the counter, your less likely to change it. A subject of study where an answer needs to be deduced is entirely different to cross examining something you believe.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Reports in the on line Torygraph is that America, Canada and Germany have expressed a wish to negotiate free trade deals with the U.K. (Not sure if Scotland would be included as the Scotish Government seem to think they can crack on on their own)


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Reports in the on line Torygraph is that America, Canada and Germany have expressed a wish to negotiate free trade deals with the U.K. (Not sure if Scotland would be included as the Scotish Government seem to think they can crack on on their own)
		
Click to expand...

Interesting. Especially as the bbc have been reporting all morning that the USA have confirmed the "back of the queue" warning. Both could be true, I guess, just how you spin it.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting. Especially as the bbc have been reporting all morning that the USA have confirmed the "back of the queue" warning. Both could be true, I guess, just how you spin it.
		
Click to expand...

Torygraph so it may be hype but as the Leader of the Confederation of German Industry was saying the same thing last week it might be true. We shall see.


----------



## GB72 (Jun 25, 2016)

I think you just have to look at who exports to us in any volume as they will want free trade agreements to stop the imposition of tarrifs on their goods. Bit of quid pro quo. None of the European economies are strong enough to ditch a profitable market.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting. Especially as the bbc have been reporting all morning that the USA have confirmed the "back of the queue" warning. Both could be true, I guess, just how you spin it.
		
Click to expand...

Found the BBC bit and it is quoting his words from April, the current statement is a bit more positive.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36626660


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brussels also want UK to start Clause 50 asap........why should Boris/Nigel/George and Co. wish any delay?
		
Click to expand...

Because it's not up to them.
It's up to the Government and at the moment that has a lame duck leader who wants nothing to do with it.
The moment Article 50 is invoked the clock starts ticking.
Why start it when we're  not in a position to start the negotiations..?
EU can't invoke it for us - they have to wait until we're  ready.
In theory we could never invoke it...........


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Found the BBC bit and it is quoting his words from April, the current statement is a bit more positive.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36626660

Click to expand...

I'm watching news 24 and the report is literally as I posted. Don't know if it's online or not.


----------



## GB72 (Jun 25, 2016)

In our interests to stall a bit to allow it to sink in and not curtail to the EU sabre rattling. They want to appear stern to stop others getting the same idea. All it takes is a few other nations to set up trade deals with us and each other and the benefits of EU membership seem less appealing especially if any more bail outs appear likely


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting. Especially as the bbc have been reporting all morning that the USA have confirmed the "back of the queue" warning.
		
Click to expand...


No bad thing as it will almost certainly involve TPP...
Erosion to 'workers rights'... NO thank you!

Obama is no different to other politicians...
Just a servant of 'big business'...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Just to prove there is a Silver Lining for both sides:

Ken Livingston says he will leave Britain :lol:


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Just to prove there is a Silver Lining for both sides:

Ken Livingston says he will leave Britain :lol:
		
Click to expand...

For where?
Who'd have him?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			When the team lose their jobs, I shall print this out and give them and tell them to grow a pair .. I will leave your name in so they know the source.
		
Click to expand...

It's tough at the top, always has been.    Why don't you see how things pan out before spreading doom and gloom.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's tough at the top, always has been.    Why don't you see how things pan out before spreading doom and gloom.
		
Click to expand...

We are all watching how it pans out. Been on way too many calls to see how we protect and prepare but at the same time we get real news that impact us directly eg. Moody's downgrade. We predicted it would happen and when i mentioned it a million posts ago the Leavers laughed at it. 

As you said it is tough at the top but we try and take the bottom with us. Unlike what you said previously, it is easier for some of us to choose flight rather than fight. 

In the long run things will be different and you can tell your grandkids how your vote helped make the difference. It is the short and medium term and the impact on jobs that I worry about. I have no issues with people who took an informed decision to Leave - it is a democracy and you make a choice. I have an issue with people who voted Leave 'without meaning it' or because 'anyway Remain would  win'. I know a few in that category and all of them are regretting it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Because it's not up to them.
It's up to the Government and at the moment that has a lame duck leader who wants nothing to do with it.
The moment Article 50 is invoked the clock starts ticking.
Why start it when we're  not in a position to start the negotiations..?
EU can't invoke it for us - they have to wait until we're  ready.
In theory we could never invoke it...........
		
Click to expand...


Did Cameron not state he would give immediate support to whatever side of the Tory party won.


----------



## Berger (Jun 25, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			No bad thing as it will almost certainly involve TPP...
Erosion to 'workers rights'... NO thank you!

Obama is no different to other politicians...
Just a servant of 'big business'...
		
Click to expand...

You don't think workers rights will be under threat with a Tory government, led (most likely) by their far right element?!


----------



## chrisd (Jun 25, 2016)

Berger said:



			You don't think workers rights will be under threat with a Tory government, led (most likely) by their far right element?!
		
Click to expand...

Why would you think that ?

It came out in the Andrew Neil interview with Hilary Been that most of the worker rights enacted in recent years are far more generous than required under the EU directives


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

Berger said:



			You don't think workers rights will be under threat with a Tory government, led (most likely) by their far right element?!
		
Click to expand...

Of course they will be...

But, the EU was already well on the way for signing us up for TPP without us having any say in it whatsoever...

What I am saying is, the much vaunted trade deal with the US isn't all that it's cracked up to be...

Government needs to be for the people every bit as much as it is for big business... 
Personally I feel people should be put first...


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did Cameron not state he would give immediate support to whatever side of the Tory party won.
		
Click to expand...

And he's said that invoking Article 50 should down to the new PM - best will in the World that isn't going to be until October


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

I think this sums up the mood of many Scots/

https://stephenorourke.org/2016/06/25/scotlands-future/


----------



## chrisd (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think this sums up the mood of many Scots/

https://stephenorourke.org/2016/06/25/scotlands-future/

Click to expand...

Absolute load of twaddle!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think this sums up the mood of many Scots/

https://stephenorourke.org/2016/06/25/scotlands-future/

Click to expand...

Total bunkum.  Scottish people voted as part of the UK not for Scotland. It's pathetic to say that they voted to stay in the EU as a Nation so the referendum result doesn't count for them.    It's a very childish and unreasonable way to view the result.

You do realise that Sturgeon has no constitutional right to call another referendum on independence, this can only be authorised by the Westminster Parliament.  The last referendum was a once in a generation call and that was made quite clear to the electorate.   My bet is that no matter how many toys she throws there will not be another.


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think this sums up the mood of many Scots/

https://stephenorourke.org/2016/06/25/scotlands-future/

Click to expand...

You've just underlined what I always thought, your a prize 1 class A knob &#128514;&#128514;


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			You've just underlined what I always thought, your a prize 1 class A knob &#128514;&#128514;
		
Click to expand...

:thup:


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

I see there have been unruly demonstrations in London, For years and years the media and govenment and left wing have laid blame on the right wing for any trouble and protests, well now we are begining to see the leftwings  true colours when things go against them ,as well as recent anti fasist members attacking peaceful protests and events which had nothing to do with politics ....the real british people are waking up to your lies ...its you that are the real nazis&#128540;


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think this sums up the mood of many Scots/

https://stephenorourke.org/2016/06/25/scotlands-future/

Click to expand...

I thought it was a decent article myself.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			I see there have been unruly demonstrations in London, For years and years the media and govenment and left wing have laid blame on the right wing for any trouble and protests, well now we are begining to see the leftwings  true colours when things go against them ,as well as recent anti fasist members attacking peaceful protests and events which had nothing to do with politics ....the real british people are waking up to your lies ...its you that are the real nazis&#128540;
		
Click to expand...

You sound very angry and agitated.
I recommend a wee rest from the keyboard


----------



## User20205 (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I thought it was a decent article myself.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it was. It's a nonsense complaining about the Scottish desire to determine their own future, set against the backdrop of recent events


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

I see the National Front had woken up from whatever hole the inhabit 




Why does everyone who voted they interview keep talking as if England has just voted to go alone ? 

Some part of me has a feeling that some voted because they possibly knew that there would be a split between the countries as well. 

As well as possibly leaving EU it is possibly the start of tearing the UK apart - the United part has certainly gone right now.


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You sound very angry and agitated.
I recommend a wee rest from the keyboard
		
Click to expand...

Not angry or agitated so you can do one!


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

What they should have done is hire a footy stadium, fit it out with hundreds of counting stations and had all ballot boxes delivered to it.
Once all boxes were there - and it would only have taken a few hours - then start counting.
That way there would be no knowledge of how specific areas voted.
The relevance of who/where voted what is limited.
The count may have taken 2 days but so what?
It's the final numbers that matter not that a majority of people in "X" voted one way or the other.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			What they should have done is hire a footy stadium, fit it out with hundreds of counting stations and had all ballot boxes delivered to it.
Once all boxes were there - and it would only have taken a few hours - then start counting.
That way there would be no knowledge of how specific areas voted.
The relevance of who/where voted what is limited.
The count may have taken 2 days but so what?
It's the final numbers that matter not that a majority of people in "X" voted one way or the other.
		
Click to expand...

Let's not have a reasoned argument at this stage!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			I see there have been unruly demonstrations in London, *For years and years the media and govenment and left wing have laid blame on the right wing for any trouble and protests*, well now we are begining to see the leftwings  true colours when things go against them ,as well as recent anti fasist members attacking peaceful protests and events which had nothing to do with politics ....the real british people are waking up to your lies ...*its you that are the real nazis&#63004;*

Click to expand...

*
*
I know, the Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times and Sun never shut up about it. 

As for calling left wingers Nazis then I'd suggest you've been spending too long on that whack job conspiracy Web site you linked to the other day. Not very clever invoking people who murdered millions really.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 25, 2016)

This has now turned into a thread full of whinging losers and smug winners. If this thread is anything to go by, then there's no way we can pull together for long enough to make a success of going it on our own. 

How about about we start discussing how we can start making a positive change, rather than throwing the insults around?


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			[/B]
I know, the Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times and Sun never shut up about it. 

As for calling left wingers Nazis then I'd suggest you've been spending too long on that whack job conspiracy Web site you linked to the other day. Not very clever invoking people who murdered millions really.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm, and Corbyns mates McGuiness & Adams don't have "British" blood on their hands&#129300;


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			Hmm, and Corbyns mates McGuiness & Adams don't have "British" blood on their hands&#129300;
		
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with the EU Referendum 

Bluewolf is right - thread is just agressive , full of insults , smugness and whinging 

The Nation has no hope at the moment


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What does that have to do with the EU Referendum 

Bluewolf is right - thread is just agressive , full of insults , smugness and whinging 

The Nation has no hope at the moment
		
Click to expand...

No hope?  Really? We are one day after the decision. One day. There could be two years before any real changes. No hope?


----------



## drdel (Jun 25, 2016)

Aristotle wrote hundreds of years ago that leaders should "not give power to the soldiers".

Cameron sought the populist route by offering a Referendum on a subject the 'soldiers' knew now't about. This was his first mistake.

His second was not negotiating a strong deal with the EU, so the case for staying became undermined.

His third was to let rhetoric get in the way of a sensible campaign an so the 'popular' have a go mentality got traction.

The Referendum should never have happened, it has - now we need to put our best brains behind making a success of the bed our democracy has made.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			No hope?  Really? We are one day after the decision. One day. There could be two years before any real changes. No hope?
		
Click to expand...

Please take it in the context it was meant - exactly like Bluewolf says - if the current attitude and reaction is a marker same with this thread then yes as United Kingdom with have no hope of getting it to work.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 25, 2016)

drdel said:



			Aristotle wrote hundreds of years ago that leaders should "not give power to the soldiers".

Cameron sought the populist route by offering a Referendum on a subject the 'soldiers' knew now't about. This was his first mistake.

His second was not negotiating a strong deal with the EU, so the case for staying became undermined.

His third was to let rhetoric get in the way of a sensible campaign an so the 'popular' have a go mentality got traction.

The Referendum should never have happened, it has - now we need to put our best brains behind making a success of the bed our democracy has made.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron had no chance of getting a strong deal with the EU. It was partly the EU 's response that has caused the current situation. Back then, they didn't take it seriously. Well, that was a mistake. It wasn't Cameron fault, but if the EU had given him anything to use, rather than sending him home with his tail between his legs, maybe, just maybe, the vote would have been different.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 25, 2016)

How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Apparently it's a very vaguely worded document, probably on the grounds that they thought nobody would ever use it.
Greenland did
55k population, one product/industry and it took 2 years.......


----------



## IainP (Jun 25, 2016)

Out of interest, how many of the 27 EU countries are not in the Eurozone?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Cameron had no chance of getting a strong deal with the EU. It was partly the EU 's response that has caused the current situation. Back then, they didn't take it seriously. Well, that was a mistake. It wasn't Cameron fault, but if the EU had given him anything to use, rather than sending him home with his tail between his legs, maybe, just maybe, the vote would have been different.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly wasn't joined up thinking by the EU.

"Um, the UK are thinking of leaving. Um, they are one of our biggest cash cows. Um, the biggest issue appears to be immigration, which we are having problems with anyway. Um, what will take away one of the biggest gripes? Um, the Schengen agreement doesn't fit the current model. Let's offer firm immigration rules and a review of who get's what."

"Oh look, they want to stay."

Never mind, its done now.


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please take it in the context it was meant - exactly like Bluewolf says - if the current attitude and reaction is a marker same with this thread then yes as United Kingdom with have no hope of getting it to work.
		
Click to expand...

But you were happy to put up pictures of NF and HK referred to Nazis as murderers in response to my post,  which they were, but when you have Corbyn in cohoots with those 2 murderers looking for SF votes, what's the difference.! 

And don't go googling for some smart arsed response because you don't have anything you can think of yourself, I'd rather you just didn't respond to my posts and ignored them or I'll save my reply and deliver it personally next time we meet!


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!
		
Click to expand...

But there pushing for a quick exit and by all accounts want to try and punish us ASAP, what they can do I don't know, if we're out, were out!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!
		
Click to expand...

I think we should ignore their calls for us to set it in place quickly.   They must understand the procedure required to get a new prime minister selected.

I would suggest that if it seems like taking more than a year then we should consider cutting it short and withdrawing on our  own terms.   We should have learned by now that to negotiate with the EU needs some form of brinkmanship, not the limp wristed style Cameron used recently.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			But you were happy to put up pictures of NF and HK referred to Nazis as murderers in response to my post,  which they were, but when you have Corbyn in cohoots with those 2 murderers looking for SF votes, what's the difference.! 

And don't go googling for some smart arsed response because you don't have anything you can think of yourself, I'd rather you just didn't respond to my posts and ignored them or I'll save my reply and deliver it personally next time we meet!
		
Click to expand...

        .........


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			But there pushing for a quick exit and by all accounts want to try and punish us ASAP, what they can do I don't know, if we're out, were out!
		
Click to expand...



Ms Merkel is saying otherwise...
And, what Angela wants Angela normally gets...


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think we should ignore their calls for us to set it in place quickly.   They must understand the procedure required to get a new prime minister selected.

I would suggest that if it seems like taking more than a year then we should consider cutting it short and withdrawing on our  own terms.   We should have learned by now that to negotiate with the EU needs some form of brinkmanship, not the limp wristed style Cameron used recently.
		
Click to expand...

But what if May throws her hat into the PM role and she was firmly in the remain camp and without article 50 being put in motion she could revert everything, well that's what I've read could happen as the referendum isn't binding until A50 is applied?!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Ms Merkel is saying otherwise...
And, what Angela wants Angela normally gets...
		
Click to expand...

Persackly, the main German mouth pieces are starting to talk a very different game.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Cameron had no chance of getting a strong deal with the EU. It was partly the EU 's response that has caused the current situation. Back then, they didn't take it seriously. Well, that was a mistake. It wasn't Cameron fault, but if the EU had given him anything to use, rather than sending him home with his tail between his legs, maybe, just maybe, the vote would have been different.
		
Click to expand...

But I think it was his fault.  He started off telling us that he would demand real changes but didnt even ask for them.   He just asked for what he though they might give him and didnt even get that.  He should have said 'These are the things the UK people want from the relationship and if you cant come close to meeting them then I will support the UK leaving'.


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Persackly, the main German mouth pieces are starting to talk a very different game.
		
Click to expand...

So that's a good thing, yes? Accepting our democratic decision and looking for common ground and new trading agreements, there was always going to be some posturing at first, but as it all settles down then they must all certainly start to think and know they can't afford to flex their muscles at us, surely we hold enough aces of our own&#129300;


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			But you were happy to put up pictures of NF and HK referred to Nazis as murderers in response to my post,  which they were, but when you have Corbyn in cohoots with those 2 murderers looking for SF votes, what's the difference.! 

And don't go googling for some smart arsed response because you don't have anything you can think of yourself, I'd rather you just didn't respond to my posts and ignored them or I'll save my reply and deliver it personally next time we meet!
		
Click to expand...

Why are you threatening me Fish ? That's after throwing insults towards Doon and being agressive towards him - there is no need at all 

The picture was relevant because it's in response to the EU Referendum vote - bringing Corbyn speak to those two has zero to do with the EU referendum


----------



## vkurup (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!
		
Click to expand...


As I hear and understand.. all 27 have to agree WITHIN the 2 yr window. If you don't get an agreement in that timeframe then you are automatically out WITHOUT a deal. Then you start negotiating as an regular outsider.. say how a Saudi Arabia, Malaysia or India would negotiate with the EU block


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			As I hear and understand.. all 27 have to agree WITHIN the 2 yr window. If you don't get an agreement in that timeframe then you are automatically out WITHOUT a deal. Then you start negotiating as an regular outsider.. say how a Saudi Arabia, Malaysia or India would negotiate with the EU block
		
Click to expand...

Yep you can just imagine it:

Romania - No we don't agree to any trade agreement.
Germany - Wind your neck in.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			How about a discussion about Article 50?

I had a very quick read of it last night. In all honesty, it seems more of a blockade than a route out. If I'm right (and it was a very quick read), then there will be no agreement on our exit until all remaining member states agree on the negotiated deal. From what I've read, this could take 5-10 years!!!
		
Click to expand...

I still think a deal with the EU will be brokered before then and Uk will remain in the EU - there is so much negotiating with so many business involved and trade that it could take ages - I think it took the Swiss 9 years to negotiate some sort of deal with the EU -


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Fish said:



			But what if May throws her hat into the PM role and she was firmly in the remain camp and without article 50 being put in motion she could revert everything, well that's what I've read could happen as the referendum isn't binding until A50 is applied?!
		
Click to expand...

And that could the GetoutofJailFree card...
Cameron won't invoke A50 - he's made that clear 
So it's up to the new PM - with the level of disquiet from all sides about the outcome of the vote, a new PM doing a U turn could gain a lot of support from unexpected quarters 
May just could be that person. And with Labour beginning the infighting it's almost a guaranteed vote winner...
Watch this space..


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I still think a deal with the EU will be brokered before then and Uk will remain in the EU - there is so much negotiating with so many business involved and trade that it could take ages - I think it took the Swiss 9 years to negotiate some sort of deal with the EU -
		
Click to expand...

I also feel that we'll end up staying in.. I don't think that the majority of the population actually want "OUT". I was speaking to staunch Leave voters last night in work.. Almost all of them were feeling some level of regret about the vote.. I can't really put my finger on why as they all appeared to have different reasons.. It's been such a strange few days...

I'm more than comfortable with my vote and my opinions. However, if we do actually leave, then I genuinely hope that I'm wrong.. I'd love for us to become a truly independent economic powerhouse.. I'd love for us to evolve our economic policies to be more equitable and fair. I'd love it if the Union progressed together to become stronger and fairer...


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 25, 2016)

Imurg said:



			And with Labour beginning the infighting it's almost a guaranteed vote winner...
Watch this space..
		
Click to expand...

Labour could quite easily turn this situation into a vote winner.. A brief Leadership fight, followed by the appointment of a real political heavyweight as leader.. If the Tories turn this into a 3 or 4 way fight then Labour could quite easily gain ground..


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I also feel that we'll end up staying in.. I don't think that the majority of the population actually want "OUT". I was speaking to staunch Leave voters last night in work.. Almost all of them were feeling some level of regret about the vote.. I can't really put my finger on why as they all appeared to have different reasons.. It's been such a strange few days...

I'm more than comfortable with my vote and my opinions. However, if we do actually leave, then I genuinely hope that I'm wrong.. I'd love for us to become a truly independent economic powerhouse.. I'd love for us to evolve our economic policies to be more equitable and fair. I'd love it if the Union progressed together to become stronger and fairer...
		
Click to expand...

I was just about to post this link and ask if it's something that is happening over the country 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

Have people voted without truely thinking and searching out the facts and searching out the facts ? 

Beyond the obvious chest thumping St George flag wearing nationalists that you see enjoy the "action" in France I think a lot may be showing regret alongside people who are worried and people who are excited about the future - i reckon that if they had the vote again now the result would be different


----------



## Fish (Jun 25, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Labour could quite easily turn this situation into a vote winner.. A brief Leadership fight, followed by the appointment of a real political heavyweight as leader.. If the Tories turn this into a 3 or 4 way fight then Labour could quite easily gain ground..
		
Click to expand...

I think too many labour stronghold areas voted out for them to rise like Phoenix. Now if the real Millaband came back......&#129300;


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

Thus far only 1.5M have signed up for a re-vote....

#embarrassing

Don't really believe the 'experts' that are saying the majority of exiters are regretting the way they voted...

Still believing the political classes will find a way of wriggling out of exit...

#listentothepeople


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I was just about to post this link and ask if it's something that is happening over the country 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

Have people voted without truely thinking and searching out the facts and searching out the facts ? 

Beyond the obvious *chest thumping St George flag wearing nationalists that you see enjoy the "action" in France *I think a lot may be showing regret alongside people who are worried and people who are excited about the future - i reckon that if they had the vote again now the result would be different
		
Click to expand...

ive no regrets and don't fit that criteria. The constant suggestion that to want out makes you some sort of trouble making vagrant is getting tiresome.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			As I hear and understand.. all 27 have to agree WITHIN the 2 yr window. If you don't get an agreement in that timeframe then you are automatically out WITHOUT a deal. Then you start negotiating as an regular outsider.. say how a Saudi Arabia, Malaysia or India would negotiate with the EU block
		
Click to expand...

Countries outside the EU seem to do quite well.  There are very many countries that trade with the EU tariff free that don't contribute to the EU and don't have free movement of people arrangements.   The EU market is not some kind of lush walled garden that only EU members hold a special key to enter.   People keep throwing out worse case scenarios which would be very unlikely and even in that event not disastrous.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have people voted without truely thinking and searching out the facts and searching out the facts ?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely - by the million.
Mainly because both campaigns concentrated on slagging each other off rather than dealing in facts - of which there were actually very few.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			ive no regrets and don't fit that criteria. The constant suggestion that to want out makes you some sort of trouble making vagrant is getting tiresome.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't suggest anything of the sort


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I was just about to post this link and ask if it's something that is happening over the country 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

Have people voted without truely thinking and searching out the facts and searching out the facts ? 

Beyond the obvious chest thumping St George flag wearing nationalists that you see enjoy the "action" in France I think a lot may be showing regret alongside people who are worried and people who are excited about the future - i reckon that if they had the vote again now the result would be different
		
Click to expand...

Yesterday, You were telling us to stop the in fighting, accept the outcome and make the best of it.   Now your doing the opposite.


Make your mind up


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yesterday, You were telling us to stop the in fighting, accept the outcome and make the best of it.   Now your doing the opposite.


Make your mind up 

Click to expand...

How exactly am I doing the opposite ? 

I have accepted the vote and will make the best of it and work my damn hardest to ensure I do my bit -  nowhere in my post have I suggested anything different.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have people voted without truely thinking and searching out the facts and searching out the facts ?
		
Click to expand...




Imurg said:



			Absolutely - by the million.
Mainly because both campaigns concentrated on slagging each other off rather than dealing in facts - of which there were actually very few.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to bet that there were millions of people that voted to remain that weren't clued up on what they were actually voting for and don't understand the situation.

I spoke to several people who said they got to the voting station and voted to remain because they didn't kno what else to do.

Ignorance and poor education on the subject works both ways.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't suggest anything of the sort
		
Click to expand...

You said, a lot, other than the vagrants in France may be regretting it. 

Ergo, to be an out voter and still have the courage of your convitictions a fair few would need to be exactly what you implied.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			You said, a lot, other than the vagrants in France may be regretting it. 

Ergo, to be an out voter and still have the courage of your convitictions a fair few would need to be exactly what you implied.
		
Click to expand...

Did you read the whole of the post or just bits that enable you to put 2 and 2 together to get 5 

I'll say it again 

A lot maybe regretting their vote "Alongside others that are worried and others that are "excited about the future" 

So going by my statement and what you say I would put you in the "excited about the future" bracket - is that right ?

It seems now the campaign has finished people still want to find a way to be offended and attach it to the way they voted.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How exactly am I doing the opposite ? 

I have accepted the vote and will make the best of it and work my damn hardest to ensure I do my bit -  nowhere in my post have I suggested anything different.
		
Click to expand...

I can assure you that those I know who voted out have no regrets and it would take a very brave politician to ignore what has just happened.

The political class have shown their arrogance and complete disregard of the public for to long. Parliament should have been sitting during the whole of this weekend ready to deal with whatever the vote threw up.

I don't like what the SNP stand for but at least they were in a position to react.

If call me Dave wants to go he should go now, those responsible for selecting the candidates to take his place should do it next week and the final vote should take place by the end of July.

Job Jobbed.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you read the whole of the post or just bits that enable you to put 2 and 2 together to get 5 

I'll say it again 

A lot maybe regretting their vote "Alongside others that are worried and others that are "excited about the future" 

So going by my statement and what you say I would put you in the "excited about the future" bracket - is that right ?

It seems now the campaign has finished people still want to find a way to be offended and attach it to the way they voted.
		
Click to expand...

im not trying to be offended. And it wasn't a personal dig, but it is something commonly seen that out voters are portrayed as the people you mention in France. Been as 17m voted out, I'd be curious the apparent configuration of the vote. Ie, how many make up the "lot" that regret it, the vagrants and the excited. 

Me personally, I think very little will change. I think that as a nation our buying power will mean that whilst countries may try and set an example. If we knock on Frances door and say so and so from America has agreed to supply all our goods that you used, would you like to counter offer. They will. 
First and foremost the Eu was set up as a business model and whilst it's landscape has changed massively, countries won't want to lose out on the money we spend with them. 

Immigration isn't so important to me. I don't think we should stop it, but should follow a successful model where only those that contribute are accepted. I would like to think that if that model was adopted, in time the people willing to sit on their arses because working doesn't benefit them enough would be forced into work or face tougher financial times.


----------



## Tarkus1212 (Jun 25, 2016)

Now that the UK has its independence what is the point of UKIP anymore?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Now that the UK has its independence what is the point of UKIP anymore?
		
Click to expand...


None...

But Nige was already re-inventing himself as an on-line internet party...

It's the way forward apparently...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Now that the UK has its independence what is the point of UKIP anymore?
		
Click to expand...

We don't have it yet


----------



## shagster (Jun 25, 2016)

now the electorate have spoke, we must exit europe asap
the tories must elect a new leader, now , but i believe that if any party changes leaders during a term of office, there should be a general election
i cant wait for the Â£390 odd million a week to be spent on the NHS, that should cut the waiting lists, but i wont hold my breath
and if the pleb boris is elected, we will wish we were back in the EU


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2016)

shagster said:



			now the electorate have spoke, we must exit europe asap
the tories must elect a new leader, now , but i believe that if any party changes leaders during a term of office, there should be a general election
i cant wait for the Â£390 odd million a week to be spent on the NHS, that should cut the waiting lists, but i wont hold my breath
and if the pleb boris is elected, we will wish we were back in the EU
		
Click to expand...

A General Election now would take some time and hold up the start of exit discussions, I would also say that the last thing the country needs to go through right now is another round of political mud slinging.


----------



## Slime (Jun 26, 2016)

I've just spent a couple of hours reading through this thread.
Some posts I find interesting, some I find laughable and some are just petty.
Emotions are still running very high, but it's still less than 48hours since the result was declared.
In this short time I've been called a racist ****, an idiot, a little Englander and one or two other pathetic things.
I find this very sad as I totally respect the opinions of all the voters I've spoken to, which ever side of the camp they represent.
Can't people just accept that not everyone will necesarily agree with them?
The cloth has been cut .................. can we not, as a nation, just somehow work together to make this work?


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2016)

Slime said:



			I've just spent a couple of hours reading through this thread.
Some posts I find interesting, some I find laughable and some are just petty.
Emotions are still running very high, but it's still less than 48hours since the result was declared.
In this short time I've been called a racist ****, an idiot, a little Englander and one or two other pathetic things.
I find this very sad as I totally respect the opinions of all the voters I've spoken to, which ever side of the camp they represent.
Can't people just accept that not everyone will necesarily agree with them?
The cloth has been cut .................. can we not, as a nation, just somehow work together to make this work?
		
Click to expand...

No.


----------



## Smiffy (Jun 26, 2016)




----------



## richy (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see the National Front had woken up from whatever hole the inhabit 

View attachment 19868


Why does everyone who voted they interview keep talking as if England has just voted to go alone ? 

Some part of me has a feeling that some voted because they possibly knew that there would be a split between the countries as well. 

As well as possibly leaving EU it is possibly the start of tearing the UK apart - the United part has certainly gone right now.
		
Click to expand...

Ashamed to say that looks like Newcastle and I'm pretty sure it was the EDL. I watched a video of them being drowned out by a group called Newcastle Unites


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 26, 2016)

Although I voted Out, I really can't stand Farage and his bunch of loonies.  But his quote of "it's not two out of three you know" to the people who want another referendum did make me laugh out loud and was brilliant.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 26, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Although I voted Out, I really can't stand Farage and his bunch of loonies.  But his quote of "it's not two out of three you know" to the people who want another referendum did make me laugh out loud and was brilliant.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, it would have been even more hilarious if he hadn't already stated his wish for a 2nd referendum if the Remain camp won a narrow 52-48 win..  You've got to wonder if satire is finally dead...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

Post on Saturday morning came with a letter from a company we asked to quote for on some work to the planned extension. They had discounted the cost and sited that the work could be done and dusted before we fully exited.
We have decided not to go ahead with any work, it's a case maintain and survive. I'll do the jobs we were subbing out. I wonder how many other people will take that view .... Sleeves rolled up and dealing with it.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 26, 2016)

The cloth has been cut .................. can we not, as a nation, just somehow work together to make this work?
		
Click to expand...




chippa1909 said:



			No.
		
Click to expand...

What do you suggest?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Yep, it would have been even more hilarious if he hadn't already stated his wish for a 2nd referendum if the Remain camp won a narrow 52-48 win..  You've got to wonder if satire is finally dead...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Click to expand...


----------



## larmen (Jun 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Me personally, I think very little will change. I think that as a nation our buying power will mean that whilst countries may try and set an example. If we knock on Frances door and say so and so from America has agreed to supply all our goods that you used, would you like to counter offer. They will. 
First and foremost the Eu was set up as a business model and whilst it's landscape has changed massively, countries won't want to lose out on the money we spend with them. 

Immigration isn't so important to me. I don't think we should stop it, but should follow a successful model where only those that contribute are accepted. I would like to think that if that model was adopted, in time the people willing to sit on their arses because working doesn't benefit them enough would be forced into work or face tougher financial times.
		
Click to expand...

I think little will change, but everything will just be a tiny bit worse. If one isn't at the borderline to 'really bad' then it is OK, if one is, then it is going to be really bad.

The UK will rely on some really good politicians doing the negotiations. Nigel isn't one of them. Can't be, he isn't an MP. And that is good.
They will have to negotiate the hell out of the EU, and of course all countries the EU agreement doesn't cover the UK anymore.
The EU will not give free trade without any compromise on free travel, that kills the immigration argument of leave. And they want financial contribution, that cuts into the Â£350 saving.

I think this all will happen, but it takes some time. That was what Obama described as 'at the back of the line'.


What really disturbs me are all the racist tweets and rants coming out. It's a minority, but at least for the last 2 days they are fairly loud.


Anyway, time to fill out an application for permanent residency. What changes for me is that I need to change my EU driving license to a UK one. I probably also have to start driving on the left.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Post on Saturday morning came with a letter from a company we asked to quote for on some work to the planned extension. They had discounted the cost and sited that the work could be done and dusted before we fully exited.
We have decided not to go ahead with any work, it's a case maintain and survive. I'll do the jobs we were subbing out. I wonder how many other people will take that view .... Sleeves rolled up and dealing with it.
		
Click to expand...

What effect do you think the outcome will have on your life and how quickly do you think the changes will take effect?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

Initially interest rates will drop, most will reduce out goings. Like myself they will start being careful and watching the cost of living. If that affect inflation the the B of E will react. Small businesses may suffer as a consequence. Not sure about holiday prices - don't care either. Hopefully we will see the return of the Â£140million a week as promised by the exit brigade- if not I would be asking for it policy was based on it. Oh and I would expect all the promises to be made good as well.....


----------



## bobmac (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			. Oh and I would expect all the promises to be made good as well.....
		
Click to expand...

In politics?

:rofl:


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

larmen said:



			I think little will change, but everything will just be a tiny bit worse. If one isn't at the borderline to 'really bad' then it is OK, if one is, then it is going to be really bad.

The UK will rely on some really good politicians doing the negotiations. Nigel isn't one of them. Can't be, he isn't an MP. And that is good.
They will have to negotiate the hell out of the EU, and of course all countries the EU agreement doesn't cover the UK anymore.
The EU will not give free trade without any compromise on free travel, that kills the immigration argument of leave. And they want financial contribution, that cuts into the Â£350 saving.

I think this all will happen, but it takes some time. That was what Obama described as 'at the back of the line'.


What really disturbs me are all the racist tweets and rants coming out. It's a minority, but at least for the last 2 days they are fairly loud.


Anyway, time to fill out an application for permanent residency. What changes for me is that I need to change my EU driving license to a UK one. I probably also have to start driving on the left.
		
Click to expand...

I think that an offer of free travel on working visas would be the compromise offered. And personally think that's fair. Come here to work the. More than welcome. Come here as a tourist. Again more than welcome. 

Unfortunately there are idiots on both sides, and anyone to be seen as being racist should be dealt with irrespective of the vote outcome.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

bobmac said:



			In politics?

:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I know but that's why I did not vote for them


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

This is very sad to see and there are lots of reports being seen on Twitter 





Polish Club in London that has been there since 1967 with paint saying "Go Home" sprayed on the outside 

Can see this all getting worse and things escalating soon - the EDL and Britain First plus any other similar organisation are revelling in this 

The "Little Englander" attitude is getting stronger and nastier


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

A wonderful moment from @faisalislam on @SkyNews that perfectly sums up the mess we're now in. #Brexit pic.twitter.com/0KC7SXj1Uk

https://mobile.twitter.com/carra23/status/747063612045467648

The head of the leave campaign doesn't have a plan on what to do next ?!?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A wonderful moment from @faisalislam on @SkyNews that perfectly sums up the mess we're now in. #Brexit pic.twitter.com/0KC7SXj1Uk

https://mobile.twitter.com/carra23/status/747063612045467648

The head of the leave campaign doesn't have a plan on what to do next ?!?
		
Click to expand...

Just calm down and dont take everything on social media as normal.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Just calm down and dont take everything on social media as normal.
		
Click to expand...

So is he lying then ? Are these reports about the leave campaign not having an exit plan all false ? You can't dismiss something just because it's being reported on social media 

It appears that the reason why Boris Johnson and co looked like scared rabbits was because they didn't really expect to win and weren't prepared for it and with Cameron resigning without invoking article 50 he could well have pulled a masterstroke.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Just calm down and dont take everything on social media as normal.
		
Click to expand...

Just tells you something about someone who has has such knowledge of the media output of such radical organisations.

They are either part of the radical group (am not suggesting the poster is) or they use these kind of outputs to stir up tension and argument amongst those who don't give a tosh about such organisations be they left or right wing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So is he lying then ? Are these reports about the leave campaign not having an exit plan all false ? You can't dismiss something just because it's being reported on social media 

It appears that the reason why Boris Johnson and co looked like scared rabbits was because they didn't really expect to win and weren't prepared for it and with Cameron resigning without invoking article 50 he could well have pulled a masterstroke.
		
Click to expand...

The exit plan requires  a two year set of negotiations, how can anyone believe the outcome can be set out before they start.   Turn off twitter and facebook and turn your common sense on rather than reacting like an exited school kid.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Just tells you something about someone who has has such knowledge of the media output of such radical organisations.

They are either part of the radical group (am not suggesting the poster is) or they use these kind of outputs to stir up tension and argument amongst those who don't give a tosh about such organisations be they left or right wing.
		
Click to expand...

All those accusations are typical of someone attempting to ignore the content of what can be seen on social media


----------



## Lump (Jun 26, 2016)

You can find the good and bad in any choice, it all depends how blinkered you are. Inciting fear and hatred into people appears to the aim of the remain voters. It was a democratic vote, one side was always going to loose. Another referendum is not going to happen, no matter how many petitions are created, riots started, rumours created and hatreds sown.
We need to stop what we are currently doing as a nation to each other, we are not going to burn as a nation. There was always going to be hard choices ahead, for the greater good or opposite.
2 days after one of the biggest votes in the UK's history is not the time to be fighting.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The exit plan requires  a two year set of negotiations, how can anyone believe the outcome can be set out before they start.   Turn off twitter and facebook and turn your common sense on rather than reacting like an exited school kid.
		
Click to expand...

So people went into a referendum without knowing what to do next if the result went in their favour 

So the future of the nation is in the hands of people who clearly couldn't be more ill prepared 

Surely they had something in place to move forward with when the results were announced ? Something planned to help them deliver the promises they made ? ( well apart from the ones that they have admitted already were lies ) 

Maybe they actually thought they didn't have a chance of winning but reality has hit in now and the pants have firmly been caught down


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All those accusations are typical of someone attempting to ignore the content of what can be seen on social media
		
Click to expand...

What you cannot accept is its the Internet and most of its not real.

Yesterday you wanted, quite rightly, for everyone to accept the will of the majority and to join together and work together.

Since then you have gone out of your way with others to make leavers appear racist, to old to know what's best for the country or educationally sub normal.

Why go looking for extremes on the Internet.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Lump said:



			You can find the good and bad in any choice, it all depends how blinkered you are. Inciting fear and hatred into people appears to the aim of the remain voters. It was a democratic vote, one side was always going to loose. Another referendum is not going to happen, no matter how many petitions are created, riots started, rumours created and hatreds sown.
We need to stop what we are currently doing as a nation to each other, we are not going to burn as a nation. There was always going to be hard choices ahead, for the greater good or opposite.
2 days after one of the biggest votes in the UK's history is not the time to be fighting.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's clear that inciting hatred isn't the sole possession of any side


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			What you cannot accept is its the Internet and most of its not real.

Yesterday you wanted, quite rightly, for everyone to accept the will of the majority and to join together and work together.

Since then you have gone out of your way with others to make leavers appear racist, to old to know what's best for the country or educationally sub normal.

Why go looking for extremes on the Internet.
		
Click to expand...

Is everything on the internet not real then ? 

Were the pictures I posted fake then ? Or is it just easier to dismiss then as "not real" - the Internet is the biggest news outlet in the world and its live and real time without having to wait for the next day - a great deal of it is the truth about what is going on. Dismissing it saying "most is not real " is false 

I haven't accused "leavers of being racist" nor have I made anything suggestions in regards being old or about someone education - please do not throw false accusations. 

I didn't need to go looking for extremes - they are all over the place


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is everything on the internet not real then ? 

Were the pictures I posted fake then ? Or is it just easier to dismiss then as "not real" - the Internet is the biggest news outlet in the world and its live and real time without having to wait for the next day - a great deal of it is the truth about what is going on. Dismissing it saying "most is not real " is false 

I haven't accused "leavers of being racist" nor have I made anything suggestions in regards being old or about someone education - please do not throw false accusations. 

I didn't need to go looking for extremes - they are all over the place
		
Click to expand...

i don't doubt the pictures and the diatribe is real but I would question the number people indulging in it. Can you imagine it being the majority, because I can't?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is everything on the internet not real then ? 

Were the pictures I posted fake then ? Or is it just easier to dismiss then as "not real" - the Internet is the biggest news outlet in the world and its live and real time without having to wait for the next day - a great deal of it is the truth about what is going on. Dismissing it saying "most is not real " is false 

I haven't accused "leavers of being racist" nor have I made anything suggestions in regards being old or about someone education - please do not throw false accusations. 

I didn't need to go looking for extremes - they are all over the place
		
Click to expand...

You are the one copying and pasting anything you can google that puts everyone who voted out in a bad light.

Can you vouch for the authenticity of everything you have posted.

Presume you have yet to find the bit where a prominent member of the remain campaign admitted to the lies that his side was sprouting all through the campaign.

Both sides were guilty but it seems you can only accept the bad deeds of the leave.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			You are the one copying and pasting anything you can google that puts everyone who voted out in a bad light.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing has come from "Google" - it's an old trotted out line to help people ignore what has been said 

Nor have I ever suggested "everyone" at any stage 



			Can you vouch for the authenticity of everything you have posted.
		
Click to expand...

When someone posts a video of someone talking then yes I accept its authenticity - same with pictures and reports from more than one person 




			Presume you have yet to find the bit where a prominent member of the remain campaign admitted to the lies that his side was sprouting all through the campaign.
		
Click to expand...

Was the Farage interview on GMB about the Â£350 mil and NHS not enough then ? 



			Both sides were guilty but it seems you can only accept the bad deeds of the leave.
		
Click to expand...

I know full well both sides had issues

And Honbit it's not the majority on any side but can see it growing over the next couple of weeks - certainly can see things getting worse


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Honbit it's not the majority on any side but can see it growing over the next couple of weeks - certainly can see things getting worse
		
Click to expand...

Do you accept the vote, if so why do you keep chucking logs on the fire.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So people went into a referendum without knowing what to do next if the result went in their favour 

So the future of the nation is in the hands of people who clearly couldn't be more ill prepared 

Surely they had something in place to move forward with when the results were announced ? Something planned to help them deliver the promises they made ? ( well apart from the ones that they have admitted already were lies ) 

Maybe they actually thought they didn't have a chance of winning but reality has hit in now and the pants have firmly been caught down
		
Click to expand...

A day ago you suggested that we should accept the will of the people and that you would do your bit to make things work, now you are just stirring up descent.   Difficult to take you seriously.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			A day ago you suggested that we should accept the will of the people and that you would do your bit to make things work, now you are just stirring up descent.   Difficult to take you seriously.
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			Do you accept the vote, if so why do you keep chucking logs on the fire.
		
Click to expand...


Because quite clearly things are coming out into the media that shed lights on things and add to the debate 

See many posts from people - "just because we voted leave doesn't mean we are racist " so I posted some pictures of racist behaviour from some people that did vote leave to highlight issues that are happening and why people are falsely throwing suggestions around 

Plus there are reports coming out that the Leave campaign had zero plans in place for what happened if they won the vote - it appears they prob expected the PM to deal with it but he has washed his hands with it - masterstroke it appears 

Now away from the forum I get on with my life - I'm not part of any petition etc etc - I'm posting on a golf forum what affect do you really think posting a few things from the media is really going to have ? 

But what is clear is that the pair of you are just deflecting away from the actual content of what I posted - but I'll leave you pair to it and expect that the road ahead isn't going to get smoother


----------



## bobmac (Jun 26, 2016)

Smiffy said:



View attachment 19872

Click to expand...

The most sensible thing on this whole thread, thank you Smiffy.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 26, 2016)

For those that voted remain - if the remain vote had won would you have expected the same level of backlash from the leave supporters ? 

What I mean by this is the constant barrage of vile accusations, hatred and abhorrence showed towards those that chose to vote in a way that they were entitled to. No matter what their reasons.  It was their right.

I'm truely shocked and appalled by the social media fallout of this vote..... calling people's integrity and education into question simply because they didn't the answer they wanted.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			For those that voted remain - if the remain vote had won would you have expected the same level of backlash from the leave supporters ? 

What I mean by this is the constant barrage of vile accusations, hatred and abhorrence showed towards those that chose to vote in a way that they were entitled to. No matter what their reasons.  It was their right.

I'm truely shocked and appalled by the social media fallout of this vote..... calling people's integrity and education into question simply because they didn't the answer they wanted.
		
Click to expand...

The reaction would have been the same which ever way the result happened

Already seen accusations of people being scared because they voted remain and people being called traitors because they voted remain 

The reaction and insults from the minority will always appear because let's be honest the people that are attacking the leave voters are the minority 

It was a vote that clearly was going to divide the UK and that's exactly what has happened - that doesn't repair overnight 

It's looking like its a vote that possibly shouldn't have been given to the public IMO because of this reaction and the after affect it is having and will continue to have


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 26, 2016)

Before the referendum:
The leave campaign is full of hatred, bile and bullying. 

After the Referendum.

Let's use hatred, bile and bullying to get the result changed.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 26, 2016)

Nobody is suggesting that all people who voted leave are racists.

For sure though, every single racist (open and closet) in this country voted leave. Unfortunately this means that the result of the vote has given every one of them the illusion that their views are widespread, legitimate and supported by the majority. Not a great situation......but it was quite obvious this would happen. Dark days ahead I feel.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2016)

Just endorses my view of those that live their lives out on social media...

Rather than seek out or try and understand why folk voted in the manner they did...
They'd sooner just take the easy route and dish out some casual 'isms...

Politicians need to start listening and acting on what they hear...
The electorate is not just for election day!

It should be people first business second...
Not the other way round...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Politicians need to start listening and acting on what they hear...
The electorate is not just for Election Day.
		
Click to expand...

Quite agree however it is two sided and the electorate need to start talking to their MPs. To many think it's just a waste of time but I use mine regularly and he and the one before were always helpful and cooperative and they both knew I hated politicians.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education. The rascist stuff is coming elsewhere, not sure whether it is linked unless the stats point towards certain groups. 
But seriously if Leave had not won we would have had this perpetual question being raised. Let's leave, give them what they want. 
But I for one will keep my hands in my pockets - you'll see no help from me.
"What goes around comes around" I will try and make sure that my family is set up and they come first no longer will I have any empathy for the educationally challenged, it's low wages for you and no benefits. Social housing ? Nah forget it go and earn the money to raise the deposit. Hospitals yup I'll pay. Cornwall no chance - silly pasties!


----------



## GB72 (Jun 26, 2016)

For those reacting to the reaction from the remain side, look at the left wing reaction to the conservative majority. No desire there to live with what the country voted for. At the end of the day there will always be a reaction from the losing side. Me, I voted remain but am learning to live with it. Things will never be as bad nor as good as people think


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education. The rascist stuff is coming elsewhere, not sure whether it is linked unless the stats point towards certain groups. 
But seriously if Leave had not won we would have had this perpetual question being raised. Let's leave, give them what they want. 
But I for one will keep my hands in my pockets - you'll see no help from me.
"What goes around comes around" I will try and make sure that my family is set up and they come first no longer will I have any empathy for the educationally challenged, it's low wages for you and no benefits. Social housing ? Nah forget it go and earn the money to raise the deposit. Hospitals yup I'll pay. Cornwall no chance - silly pasties!
		
Click to expand...

Educationally challenged? Your comments are as narrow minded as those of the obvious racists. 

I've many friends that would struggle with a cross word yet own nice cars, houses and have lovely holidays. Hard work goes a long way and jumped up ^#*{+\ who think they are somehow better than others due to a level of further education are as bad as any other prejudice group. 

I I suggest you take a look around the next time you need someone's help, be it a plumber, mechanic or any other manual skill and ask yourself whether university got them to your door or other means. 
Your opinions are exactly what led to the working class being in large supportive or Leave.


----------



## Tiger man (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education. The rascist stuff is coming elsewhere, not sure whether it is linked unless the stats point towards certain groups. 
But seriously if Leave had not won we would have had this perpetual question being raised. Let's leave, give them what they want. 
But I for one will keep my hands in my pockets - you'll see no help from me.
"What goes around comes around" I will try and make sure that my family is set up and they come first no longer will I have any empathy for the educationally challenged, it's low wages for you and no benefits. Social housing ? Nah forget it go and earn the money to raise the deposit. Hospitals yup I'll pay. Cornwall no chance - silly pasties!
		
Click to expand...

Wow, so you are saying from now on you will dodge taxes because we are not in the EU?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education. The rascist stuff is coming elsewhere, not sure whether it is linked unless the stats point towards certain groups. 
But seriously if Leave had not won we would have had this perpetual question being raised. Let's leave, give them what they want. 
But I for one will keep my hands in my pockets - you'll see no help from me.
"What goes around comes around" I will try and make sure that my family is set up and they come first no longer will I have any empathy for the educationally challenged, it's low wages for you and no benefits. Social housing ? Nah forget it go and earn the money to raise the deposit. Hospitals yup I'll pay. Cornwall no chance - silly pasties!
		
Click to expand...

How petulant. Don't forget the foot stamp too.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Now Labour MP David Lammy saying that the will of the  majority should be ignored. Should be sacked.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			How petulant. Don't forget the foot stamp too.
		
Click to expand...

Dont beat him at golf - if he plays - you'll get a nine iron around your swede.


----------



## Slime (Jun 26, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			No.
		
Click to expand...

 
I'm not expecting an answer, but ...................why no?
What do you propose to do? Again, not expecting an answer.
You're priceless, you really are!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

did you imply that tradesmen/ women are educationally challenged?? Blimey that's a pretty stupid comparison to draw, offensive as well. 
Twist how you like, class how you will - but if you wanted to leave get your plan up an running. Oh and don't get upset with those of us who have one. 
The stats have recorded the information- accept them like the result. Wear your classification with the same pride as your choice. 
Let's see if you get what you want. It would be wrong of me to influence it positively or negatively even if I could! 
I have just said I no longer look further than my family. Which is basically the same as any Tory voter over the last 40yrs. 
Stamping my foot - not really just shaking my head in disbelief with a wry smile.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Educationally challenged? Your comments are as narrow minded as those of the obvious racists. 

I've many friends that would struggle with a cross word yet own nice cars, houses and have lovely holidays. Hard work goes a long way and jumped up ^#*{+\ who think they are somehow better than others due to a level of further education are as bad as any other prejudice group. 

I I suggest you take a look around the next time you need someone's help, be it a plumber, mechanic or any other manual skill and ask yourself whether university got them to your door or other means. 
Your opinions are exactly what led to the working class being in large supportive or Leave.
		
Click to expand...

The EU gave us the minimum wage - Dyson didn't agree with it and went some where it wasn't applied. Hope they keep it - or hard work will just be cheap labour. Pop that in your pipe and smoke it.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The EU gave us the minimum wage - Dyson didn't agree with it and went some where it wasn't applied. Hope they keep it - or hard work will just be cheap labour. Pop that in your pipe and smoke it.
		
Click to expand...

Did they also give us the living wage now given to most people in the UK? Just because things came about whilst we've been part of the eu doesn't mean that they wouldn't of happened without them. 

This constant desire to attribute anything good to the decision makers of the Eu is laughable. 

Also. The trades i mentioned get paid considerably more than the minimum wage. Even when given mates rates.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Did they also give us the living wage now given to most people in the UK? Just because things came about whilst we've been part of the eu doesn't mean that they wouldn't of happened without them. 

This constant desire to attribute anything good to the decision makers of the Eu is laughable. 

Also. The trades i mentioned get paid considerably more than the minimum wage. Even when given mates rates.
		
Click to expand...

Surely if its something that they have applied and implemented and its good then how can it be "laughable" - come on you got to show balance and dismissing any good that the EU did as laughable makes you no better than him.

Just look at how much the EU put into Wales , N Ireland , North of England and indeed Scotland - areas that the Tories ignored for decades and indeed suggestions of managed decline.

Its quite clear the EU did a lot of good for the UK - and its nothing but speculation to suggest that our own government would have done it - especially when you look at their past.

Whilst there are issues with the EU - there was also a lot of good with the EU - people have more rights because of the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The EU gave us the minimum wage - Dyson didn't agree with it and went some where it wasn't applied. Hope they keep it - or hard work will just be cheap labour. Pop that in your pipe and smoke it.
		
Click to expand...

Balderdash, are you educationally challenged  You really don't know what you are talking about.  The minimum wage was introduced by the labour Government in 1999, it was nothing to do with EU regulations.


----------



## drdel (Jun 26, 2016)

I wonder if any of the Forum's other members are disappointed with the way this thread has sunk into mindless bickering. We live in a Democracy and enjoy the benefits it give, on average and in general.

Any old teacher of mine frequently made the point "...empty vessels make most sound..." 

I'd say there's an inverse correlation between the number of posts a member's made on this thread and the poster's constructive content.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 26, 2016)

It's a good job this didn't happen during the winter......
Would have been utter carnage..


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

We are still in Europe and always will be, we like our European neighbours, we like their countries and cultures and so it will remain.  It's the EU we have rejected which is something entirely different. There has been enough silly mud slinging going on and it will change nothing.   Let's make the best of where we are now for our future generations sake.
The decision is made, the real work is yet to begin but let's have a bit of faith in ourselves.  We really can make a great future for this country with conviction, faith and goodwill.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

drdel said:



			I wonder if any of the Forum's other members are disappointed with the way this thread has sunk into mindless bickering. We live in a Democracy and enjoy the benefits it give, on average and in general.

Any old teacher of mine frequently made the point "...empty vessels make most sound..." 

I'd say there's an inverse correlation between the number of posts a member's made on this thread and the poster's constructive content.
		
Click to expand...

There's been some good stuff from some very passionate posters. And then there's those that have lapped up the political rhetoric and have spouted it on. The electorate absolutely needed honesty and guidance in what is one of the most important votes in a millennium, and they got what...

Andrew Neil did some great interviews with the top politicians from both sides. Where they waffled or spun stats he ripped them to shreds, the best one was on George Osbourne.

Irrespective of who voted for what, the vast majority of politicians from both sides are responsible for the outcome. Both sides let down the electorate in the worst way possible. Never mind the odd politician resigning his or her cabinet, or shadow cabinet, position. They should resign from politics for their disgraceful performance.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just look at how much the EU put into Wales , N Ireland , North of England and indeed Scotland - areas that the Tories ignored for decades and indeed suggestions of managed decline.
		
Click to expand...

The majority of funding that came from the EU had to be matched by whatever government was in power. So it's very hard to say that the Tory or Labour Government ignored any of the countries you mentioned.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely if its something that they have applied and implemented and its good then how can it be "laughable" - come on you got to show balance and dismissing any good that the EU did as laughable makes you no better than him.

Just look at how much the EU put into Wales , N Ireland , North of England and indeed Scotland - areas that the Tories ignored for decades and indeed suggestions of managed decline.

Its quite clear the EU did a lot of good for the UK - and its nothing but speculation to suggest that our own government would have done it - especially when you look at their past.

Whilst there are issues with the EU - there was also a lot of good with the EU - people have more rights because of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

until recently there was a long period of power with labour in control so the Torres haven't been able to beglect the north for quite some time. In the last, yes they were bad and those grudges won't soon be forgotten for many reasons. And many of them legitimate. 

For the record, I didn't say the emus contribution was laughable, I said to suggest it wouldn't of happened without them was. Just because the Eu implemented it. Doesn't prove it wouldn't of happened without it. Other forward thinking countries not part of the Eu also pay minimum wages.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

quite a few of them not in Europe.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We are still in Europe and always will be, we like our European neighbours, we like their countries and cultures and so it will remain.  It's the EU we have rejected which is something entirely different. There has been enough silly mud slinging going on and it will change nothing.   Let's make the best of where we are now for our future generations sake.
The decision is made, the real work is yet to begin but let's have a bit of faith in ourselves.  We really can make a great future for this country with conviction, faith and goodwill.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.

Its worth reminding ourselves what David Cameron himself said about our chances of "survival"  outside the EU. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JsrxXhCEc


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Did they also give us the living wage now given to most people in the UK? Just because things came about whilst we've been part of the eu doesn't mean that they wouldn't of happened without them. 

This constant desire to attribute anything good to the decision makers of the Eu is laughable. 

Also. The trades i mentioned get paid considerably more than the minimum wage. Even when given mates rates.
		
Click to expand...

Really, why is anything positive about the EU not acceptable? I sense you are too far down the road to even contemplate that the EU was positive, you probably don't know that Winston Churchill wanted a unified Europe. 
Enjoy your future I hope you get what you expect. 
I hope I don't - I think we would have been better in. But I have rolled up my sleeves and I am getting on with it. 
I have decided how I will vote in future and manifestos that will please me. 
I am sure the trades will be fine at no point did I mention them. I was alluding to this group of people who live off benefits with no intention to work....


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Really, why is anything positive about the EU not acceptable? I sense you are too far down the road to even contemplate that the EU was positive, you probably don't know that Winston Churchill wanted a unified Europe. 
Enjoy your future I hope you get what you expect. 
I hope I don't - I think we would have been better in. But I have rolled up my sleeves and I am getting on with it. 
I have decided how I will vote in future and manifestos that will please me. 
I am sure the trades will be fine at no point did I mention them. I was alluding to this group of people who live off benefits with no intention to work....
		
Click to expand...

if you read my post, I didn't say the Eu had no positive effect. Just that I believe it could have occurred without them. Re trade workers, I forget the term but it was aimed at those that hadn't studied further education. You didn't say benefit spongers. Which, for the record I fully hope get hit hard too. 

Ive also said previously that my issues were none of the stereotypical expectations of leave voters (immigrants being the cause of all our woes). 

I simply feel that as a country we contribute more than we need to for very little control. For all the talk of us changing it from within. Cameron went to them with a list of requirements and left with less than he started with.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			if you read my post, I didn't say the Eu had no positive effect. Just that I believe it could have occurred without them. Re trade workers, I forget the term but it was aimed at those that hadn't studied further education. You didn't say benefit spongers. Which, for the record I fully hope get hit hard too. 

Ive also said previously that my issues were none of the stereotypical expectations of leave voters (immigrants being the cause of all our woes). 

I simply feel that as a country we contribute more than we need to for very little control. For all the talk of us changing it from within. Cameron went to them with a list of requirements and left with less than he started with.
		
Click to expand...

5 EU laws that the Government wanted to change or block but couldn't 

Environment act in regards - emissions and pesticides , human and workers rights and animal rights - all areas that make our lives better yet the Government wanted them stopped changed or removed - so I'm sorry but that to me doesn't suggest our government would have looked after workers without the away 

And very little control ? What exactly don't we control ? 

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...ped-stop-the-tories-from-passing--ZygyRM8GAEZ


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...s-being-helped-across-the-road-20160626109835


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			5 EU laws that the Government wanted to change or block but couldn't 

Environment act in regards - emissions and pesticides , human and workers rights and animal rights - all areas that make our lives better yet the Government wanted them stopped changed or removed - so I'm sorry but that to me doesn't suggest our government would have looked after workers without the away 

And very little control ? What exactly don't we control ? 

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...ped-stop-the-tories-from-passing--ZygyRM8GAEZ

Click to expand...

1 human rights. Wanting that bill scraped doesn't mean all the things on there would be under attack. They may have just wanted more scope for how criminals are treated. Of course they may have wanted to impose slavery, but guesses either way are speculation. 

2. Greenhouse gases, for me personally I'm still more concerned about escalating fuel and energy bills than the life of bees. Especially when China's emissions are so out of hand. 

3, much of 2 really. Whilst I acknowledge the need to try and help the environment. When considering a party or person to elect. It is well down on the criteria I judge against. 

4, well I'm finding it hard to decide whether this is above 2 and 3 or below. Whilst I acknowledge that animals (destined for slaughter) have no need to be treated poorly. I certainly wouldn't withhold my vote for someone because hens were treated poorly. 

5. I'm actually all for putting restrictions on unions. Unfortunately I didn't grow up during the thatcher days. So whilst I have read plenty and accept to a lot she is the devil. To me, unions now are more about how can we screw employers mist once we have the upper had. As opposed to in the past when they were simply trying to get their members a fair deal. 

So so in answer to your question re what the Eu s done for us. Me personally not a lot as I'm not in a union, nor am I an animal or the environment.

re control. You've just listed 5 things the Eu stopped us doing. Whether I agree or disagree with any or all of them is irrelevant. But shows that they have control over at least those 5 things.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2016)

Never mind Plan B
Does any one have a scoobie about this government's Plan A


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...s-being-helped-across-the-road-20160626109835

Click to expand...

Did you post that because:

a) It portrays what you really believe but you don't have the goolies to say it.
b) It's a light hearted dig at old people who have no right to opinions on politics as they have all had easy and greedy lives.
c) Using satire is a convenient method to insult at arms length.
d) anyone who finds it offensive can be accused of having no sense of humour.
e) I'm sarcastic and shallow but it makes me look as though I have an advanced intellect.


----------



## User20205 (Jun 26, 2016)

F) it's a light hearted, satirical look at the last few days. I believe it mocks all equally, except maybe the Romanian fella.


It's a joke Jeff !!!!


----------



## Liverbirdie (Jun 26, 2016)

Havent been on this thread, can someone do a summing up for me........


----------



## User20205 (Jun 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Havent been on this thread, can someone do a summing up for me........

Click to expand...

Usual format. 2 lots of 'experts' disagree, Phil starts googling stuff & fish threatens violence. Standard


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Never mind Plan B
Does any one have a scoobie about this government's Plan A
		
Click to expand...

Plan A is obvious. Resign in a huff and let some other poor mug pick up the pieces. 

Labour's plan is to force Corbyn's resignation, and get a good man in who can take advantage of the Tories petty power plays. Unfortunately, Corbyn still thinks he's the new Messiah, and intends to part the waters on his own whilst wearing his jockies outside his trousers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

therod said:



			F) it's a light hearted, satirical look at the last few days. I believe it mocks all equally, except maybe the Romanian fella.


It's a joke Jeff !!!!
		
Click to expand...

probably d) then.

Or:

G) It's not a joke, it portrays the way many are suggesting Older people are unworthy to have a vote and have ruined the lives of the young.   Passing it off as a joke is a joke.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Corbyn still thinks he's the new Messiah, and intends to part the waters on his own whilst wearing his jockies outside his trousers.
		
Click to expand...


That put a picture in my head I didn't really need...


----------



## User20205 (Jun 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			probably d) then.

Or:

G) It's not a joke, it portrays the way many are suggesting Older people are unworthy to have a vote and have ruined the lives of the young.   Passing it off as a joke is a joke.
		
Click to expand...

We're past that stage now. Consider us a metaphorical incontinence pant. Here to help you with the mess you've created :thup:


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2016)

Wish folk would start googling worthwhile relevant stuff...

Start with Juncker...

And then ask yourself do you trust your future in this persons hands...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2016)

therod said:



			We're past that stage now. Consider us a metaphorical incontinence pant. Here to help you with the mess you've created :thup:
		
Click to expand...

In that case i'll big up on the prunes.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 26, 2016)

Have been off grid today golfing so haven't really kept up on details. As I understand it the pm and chancellor who initiated the referendum have either quit or are hiding, the leaders of the campaign to get us to leave have no plan for what happens next, and are only breaking cover intermittently to throw in some more lies and the official opposition have basically imploded. 

Meanwhile the pound continues to tumble and general economic volatility continues.

Fair synopsis?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Have been off grid today golfing so haven't really kept up on details. As I understand it the pm and chancellor who initiated the referendum have either quit or are hiding, the leaders of the campaign to get us to leave have no plan for what happens next, and are only breaking cover intermittently to throw in some more lies and the official opposition have basically imploded. 

Meanwhile the pound continues to tumble and general economic volatility continues.

Fair synopsis?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=soc_567


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Have been off grid today golfing so haven't really kept up on details. As I understand it the pm and chancellor who initiated the referendum have either quit or are hiding, the leaders of the campaign to get us to leave have no plan for what happens next, and are only breaking cover intermittently to throw in some more lies and the official opposition have basically imploded. 

Meanwhile the pound continues to tumble and general economic volatility continues.

Fair synopsis?
		
Click to expand...

But we now have 350 million more a week to spend on the NHS and we can control immigration easily.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			probably d) then.

Or:

G) It's not a joke, it portrays the way many are suggesting Older people are unworthy to have a vote and have ruined the lives of the young.   Passing it off as a joke is a joke.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, it's a joke. The way they work is that they make subtle points, mostly through comic exaggeration, on the ridiculousness of the situation through humour. Then people with no sense of humour who seem to get professionally offended (well some do at everything I post for some reason) take them seriously and get very angry on Internet forums. . 

Of course the leavers are more than welcome to provide a bit  of humour and levity to even things up. It's a free world. Unless we are no longer able to post jokes as some may find them offensive. Which if they do, top tip, don't look on the Internet, or read the papers, there is much worse out there. And another top tip, if I post a link to the Daily Mash then don't click on it as they do seem to get you all in a tizzy.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you post that because:

a) It portrays what you really believe but you don't have the goolies to say it.
b) It's a light hearted dig at old people who have no right to opinions on politics as they have all had easy and greedy lives.
c) Using satire is a convenient method to insult at arms length.
d) anyone who finds it offensive can be accused of having no sense of humour.
e) I'm sarcastic and shallow but it makes me look as though I have an advanced intellect.
		
Click to expand...

All 5. Especially e, in fact I like that so much I'll put that one on my CV and LinkedIn page. Cheers.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...the-way-britains-handling-this-20160626109849


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=soc_567

Click to expand...

Brilliant piece, nails it. And how depressing our new reality is.


----------



## delc (Jun 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Have been off grid today golfing so haven't really kept up on details. As I understand it the pm and chancellor who initiated the referendum have either quit or are hiding, the leaders of the campaign to get us to leave have no plan for what happens next, and are only breaking cover intermittently to throw in some more lies and the official opposition have basically imploded. 

Meanwhile the pound continues to tumble and general economic volatility continues.

Fair synopsis?
		
Click to expand...

Is there any way we could forget that the whole ghastly referendum business ever happened?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

So whilst driving back from work this morning two interesting reports on 5live

1. Boris Johnson has spoken about what he sees for the future - "no dramatic change except we would be under the rule of EU legislation" - nothing about trade or immigration or finance or NHS - so the only thing he wants to change is the laws that the EU have created to help the people's rights ( apparently those laws stop people getting jobs ) 

2. George Osbourne's speech - the government are the only people that can start Article 50 and that won't happen until a clear vision about what happens next and what trade is in place plus any deals etc - as the Labour MP on the Radio said "That could take decades and smells like a deal will be sought" and said its quite clear that the likes of Gove and Johnson really don't know what to do next and have nothing in place 


It's just my opinion but I still believe that this time in 5 years time we will still be part of the EU but with a different deal and way of working - mainly with the way EU laws are implemented.

And this is sad to see

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

We can all relax now, panic over.
Plan A is to do nothing for 4 months.
There still appears to be no Plan B


----------



## Slab (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So whilst driving back from work this morning two interesting reports on 5live

1. Boris Johnson has spoken about what he sees for the future - "no dramatic change except we would be under the rule of EU legislation" - nothing about trade or immigration or finance or NHS - so the only thing he wants to change is the laws that the EU have created to help the people's rights ( apparently those laws stop people getting jobs ) 

2. George Osbourne's speech - the government are the only people that can start Article 50 and that won't happen until a clear vision about what happens next and what trade is in place plus any deals etc - as the Labour MP on the Radio said "That could take decades and smells like a deal will be sought" and said its quite clear that the likes of Gove and Johnson really don't know what to do next and have nothing in place 


*It's just my opinion but I still believe that this time in 5 years time we will still be part of the EU but with a different deal and way of working - mainly with the way EU laws are implemented*.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, maybe I'm just in denial but I just don't think it's (leave) going to happen. I don't think politicians were anywhere near ready for leave to actually win the referendum


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

Well I have rolled up my sleeves and done my bit.
I have just filled up my half full heating oil tank before prices surge.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well I have rolled up my sleeves and done my bit.
I have just filled up my half full heating oil tank before prices surge.
		
Click to expand...


That was an inevitability irrespective of what happened Thursday....


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2016)

Still lots of huffing and puffing amongst the political classes...

With the almost certain conclusion being... We go nowhere...

After all, there's not a great track record amongst any of them for listening...


----------



## User62651 (Jun 27, 2016)

Read somewhere that what Johnson/Gove really wanted was a 51/49 win for Remain, close enough to make Camerons authority shaky enough to get him out for a leadership contest for PM. They didn't think they could win and now they have they don't know what to do next, this seemed obvious from Johnsons mumbling low key speech the other day trying to appease all and failing. This has backfired on Bojo, Cameron and everyone else as the Bullingdon boys vie for the top job. Know a guy who used to work with Gove and he says absolutely that Gove wants to be PM, playing a crafty game that one, waiting for Boris to shoot himself in the foot.

As for Jezza, think it inappropriate timing that his shadow cabinet and Benn in particular (Red Tory who makes me cringe) have got stuck in already, he got a clear mandate not so long ago and despite never having voted Labour I think Corben is one of the very few politicians I believe tells the truth. 

Politicans on all sides are not exactly improving their image to the public currently, its all opportunism and manouvering for self gain, rather than the country's gain it seems. I hope Corben sticks to his guns and tells that shadow cabinet rabble where to get off, done nothing wrong imo except be honest, he didn't call the referendum. Refreshingly normal honest human being Corben, particularly for a politician.

On top of this racism incidents across England reportedly on the rise. 

All bad.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So whilst driving back from work this morning two interesting reports on 5live

1. *Boris Johnson has spoken about what he sees for the future - "no dramatic change except we would be under the rule of EU legislation" - nothing about trade or immigration or finance or NHS - so the only thing he wants to change is the laws that the EU have created to help the people's rights ( apparently those laws stop people getting jobs ) *

2. George Osbourne's speech - the government are the only people that can start Article 50 and that won't happen until a clear vision about what happens next and what trade is in place plus any deals etc - as the Labour MP on the Radio said "That could take decades and smells like a deal will be sought" and said its quite clear that the likes of Gove and Johnson really don't know what to do next and have nothing in place 


It's just my opinion but I still believe that this time in 5 years time we will still be part of the EU but with a different deal and way of working - mainly with the way EU laws are implemented.

And this is sad to see

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

Click to expand...

He also said that he expects us to 'intensify our cooperation with the EU' now. As that is obviously how it works, you leave an institution using rhetoric that they were mostly uneleceted bureaucratic foreigners interfering with our British way of life, and then you expect to intensify co-operation with said organisation. 

I think no matter how much 'sleeve rolling' occurs this is truly frightening.  I said the other night, if the school I am chair of had such poor governance as this it would be placed into special measures.  But these people are running our country which we have apparently got back from the EU, allegedly.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So whilst driving back from work this morning two interesting reports on 5live

1. Boris Johnson has spoken about what he sees for the future - "no dramatic change except we would be under the rule of EU legislation" - nothing about trade or immigration or finance or NHS - so the only thing he wants to change is the laws that the EU have created to help the people's rights ( apparently those laws stop people getting jobs ) 

2. George Osbourne's speech - the government are the only people that can start Article 50 and that won't happen until a clear vision about what happens next and what trade is in place plus any deals etc - as the Labour MP on the Radio said "That could take decades and smells like a deal will be sought" and said its quite clear that the likes of Gove and Johnson really don't know what to do next and have nothing in place 


It's just my opinion but I still believe that this time in 5 years time we will still be part of the EU but with a different deal and way of working - mainly with the way EU laws are implemented.

*And this is sad to see

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales*

Click to expand...

Depressingly inevitable I think.  Some people are just looking for an excuse to do this sort of crap.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 27, 2016)

A lot of speculation going on but what we know is that the majority of people voted out. Surely out must means out.

It would be un-democratic to either strike a new deal with the EU so that we *remain* on better terms or go for a second EU referendum. Both things are completely off the table. 

Any discussion now should be about how and when we exit the EU not if we exit the EU. 

There is no if , what is done is done.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			A lot of speculation going on but what we know is that the *majority of people voted out.* Surely out must means out.

It would be un-democratic to either strike a new deal with the EU so that we remain on better terms or go for a second EU referendum. Both things are completely off the table. 

Any discussion now should be about how and when we exit the EU not if we exit the EU. 

There is no if , what is done is done.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on what you class as a majority.  More than voted the other way then yes.  A sizeable proportion of the electorate then no.  You can compare it to the Muirfield election to not allow women, in that case a majority by one definition voted yes to it but it did not pass.

But I agree the rules are the rules and technically we should just man up and reap what we sow to a certain extent.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, it's a joke. The way they work is that they make subtle points, mostly through comic exaggeration, on the ridiculousness of the situation through humour. Then people with no sense of humour who seem to get professionally offended (well some do at everything I post for some reason) take them seriously and get very angry on Internet forums. . 

Of course the leavers are more than welcome to provide a bit  of humour and levity to even things up. It's a free world. Unless we are no longer able to post jokes as some may find them offensive. Which if they do, top tip, don't look on the Internet, or read the papers, there is much worse out there. And another top tip, if I post a link to the Daily Mash then don't click on it as they do seem to get you all in a tizzy.
		
Click to expand...

I understand what the Daily Mash is and how it uses sarcasm to put it's view out.  Call it humour if it suits.

What offends me is not that but the link you used had 'Ageist' undertones and for me Ageism is no better than Racism as it is used to vilify groups of people in the community.    Your link to it with no other comment, not even a smiley suggests to me you are in support of the message it gives.  

Please dont' suggest that it's just a joke and not meant seriously, that would be more of an insult to your intelligence than mine.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But we now have 350 million more a week to spend on the NHS and we can control immigration easily. 

Click to expand...


Not while we are still in  the EU and paying our dues


----------



## Dellboy (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends on what you class as a majority.  More than voted the other way then yes.
		
Click to expand...

Over 1.2 million more people wanted to leave so I would say that's a majority.

We have to now man up and press on and leave the EU, the sooner the better I say.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 27, 2016)

Dellboy said:



			Over 1.2 million more people wanted _*voted*_ to leave so I would say that's a majority.

We have to now man up and press on and leave the EU, the sooner the better I say.
		
Click to expand...

FTFY

Quite a few have already come out and noted they voted that way but didn't _actually_&#8203; want to leave. Messr's Johnson and Gove share the feeling I believe.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			FTFY

Quite a few have already come out and noted they voted that way but didn't _actually_&#8203; want to leave. Messr's Johnson and Gove share the feeling I believe.
		
Click to expand...

Anecdotal or fact?

But if we're now throwing in maybe's, I wonder how many people wanted to vote Leave but voted Remain at the last minute out of fear.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			FTFY

Quite a few have already come out and noted they voted that way but didn't _actually_&#8203; want to leave. Messr's Johnson and Gove share the feeling I believe.
		
Click to expand...

That is speculation with no numbers to back it, it's like saying a number who abstained may have voted to leave.   All that mattered is what people did on the day the rest of this type of discussion is sour grapes and tittle tattle.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...vernment-for-letting-them-vote-20160627109858

Warning, Socket Rocket will do his nut when he reads this...


----------



## User62651 (Jun 27, 2016)

Dellboy said:



			Over 1.2 million more people wanted to leave so I would say that's a majority.

*We* have to now man up and press on and leave the EU, the sooner the better I say.
		
Click to expand...

Who is we? Do you not think the vote needed to go the same way over the 4 parts of the UK? If all voted Brexit then crack on but they didn't. That should have been set out at the start imo. 2 of the 4 areas voted separately so there is no mandate for all the UK, just for England and Wales, pushing forward now with Brexit divides and could split the UK up. Maybe it ends up like that but these issues need to be ironed out before the UK rushes into this. legally a referendum is not like an election, the result of it does not have to be enacted. 
Cameron bailed as he won't sign article 50, whomoever does sign article 50 to get this moving is a dead duck, that's whey they're all keeping their heads down, whomever sticks their head above the trench is going to lose it, tactics have gone badly wrong for all wannabee PM's as no-one wants to do this (at government level). Farage would but he's not a player.

This will rumble on and I also wouldn't be surprised if Brexit doesn't happen.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

Every single option should be on the table and discussed right now 

Nothing missed - if a deal can be brokered for the good of the country then do it 

But what ever happens the experts should be fully involved in finding the best way forward for us as a nation - the vote has happened and people gave their say - IMO that doesn't mean we remove straight away without a thought - sorry but there is far too much at risk for the future for that to be done without proper discussion between the appropiate people 

If a deal can be done that allows the UK to stay within the EU and for the benefit of the U.K. And its neighbour's then IMO a majority would be up for that - if that means a second vote then so what - far better to make sure of things and to ensure the country follows the right path for its citizens as a whole - it's clear that some won't want that and want the UK to remove itself immediately - regardless of how practical that is . 

Surely the correct move forward is what's best for the country


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Who is we? Do you not think the vote needed to go the same way over the 4 parts of the UK? If all voted Brexit then crack on but they didn't. That should have been set out at the start imo. 2 of the 4 areas voted separately so there is no mandate for all the UK, just for England and Wales, pushing forward now with Brexit divides and could split the UK up. Maybe it ends up like that but these issues need to be ironed out before the UK rushes into this. legally a referendum is not like an election, the result of it does not have to be enacted. 
Cameron bailed as he won't sign article 50, whomoever does sign article 50 to get this moving is a dead duck, that's whey they're all keeping their heads down, whomever sticks their head above the trench is going to lose it, tactics have gone badly wrong for all wannabee PM's as no-one wants to do this (at government level). Farage would but he's not a player.

This will rumble on and I also wouldn't be surprised if Brexit doesn't happen.
		
Click to expand...

It was a UK referendum, not an individual nation one.  I think we all knew that and it disingenuous and opportunist  to suggest otherwise.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every single option should be on the table and discussed right now 

Nothing missed - if a deal can be brokered for the good of the country then do it 

But what ever happens the experts should be fully involved in finding the best way forward for us as a nation - the vote has happened and people gave their say - IMO that doesn't mean we remove straight away without a thought - sorry but there is far too much at risk for the future for that to be done without proper discussion between the appropiate people 

If a deal can be done that allows the UK to stay within the EU and for the benefit of the U.K. And its neighbour's then IMO a majority would be up for that - if that means a second vote then so what - far better to make sure of things and to ensure the country follows the right path for its citizens as a whole - it's clear that some won't want that and want the UK to remove itself immediately - regardless of how practical that is . 

Surely the correct move forward is what's best for the country
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment but whatever arrangement is made it must include the UK being separated from the EU politically.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...vernment-for-letting-them-vote-20160627109858

Warning, Socket Rocket will do his nut when he reads this...
		
Click to expand...


SocketRocket cares not a tosh what the Dailymash posts.  He has explained what he thinks about the way you manipulate it for your own agenda though.     

Oh! nearly forgot.   Grow Up :thup:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			...
I think Corben is one of the very few politicians I believe tells the truth. 

Politicans on all sides are not exactly improving their image to the public currently, its all opportunism and manouvering for self gain, rather than the country's gain it seems. I hope Corben sticks to his guns and tells that shadow cabinet rabble where to get off, done nothing wrong imo except be honest, he didn't call the referendum. Refreshingly normal honest human being Corben, particularly for a politician.
....
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that means he's likely to be a poor politician! 

And that appears to have been demonstrated by his rather inept showing showing during the 'campaign' - or did the media simply ignore him!

I think Benn was actually correct in his statement - the result of which was inevitable!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Who is we? Do you not think the vote needed to go the same way over the 4 parts of the UK? If all voted Brexit then crack on but they didn't. That should have been set out at the start imo. 2 of the 4 areas voted separately so there is no mandate for all the UK, just for England and Wales, pushing forward now with Brexit divides and could split the UK up. Maybe it ends up like that but these issues need to be ironed out before the UK rushes into this. legally a referendum is not like an election, the result of it does not have to be enacted. 
Cameron bailed as he won't sign article 50, whomoever does sign article 50 to get this moving is a dead duck, that's whey they're all keeping their heads down, whomever sticks their head above the trench is going to lose it, tactics have gone badly wrong for all wannabee PM's as no-one wants to do this (at government level). Farage would but he's not a player.

This will rumble on and I also wouldn't be surprised if Brexit doesn't happen.
		
Click to expand...

Corbyn as a leader should reflect his party. As a back bencher he could have his mini crusades and push his fringe agendas with the likes of Hamas. As a leader he should be a team captain. Unfortunately, the A-team don't want him, and picking the B-team won't win an election.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every single option should be on the table and discussed right now 

Nothing missed - if a deal can be brokered for the good of the country then do it 

But what ever happens the experts should be fully involved in finding the best way forward for us as a nation - the vote has happened and people gave their say - IMO that doesn't mean we remove straight away without a thought - sorry but there is far too much at risk for the future for that to be done without proper discussion between the appropiate people 

If a deal can be done that allows the UK to stay within the EU and for the benefit of the U.K. And its neighbour's then IMO a majority would be up for that - if that means a second vote then so what - far better to make sure of things and to ensure the country follows the right path for its citizens as a whole - it's clear that some won't want that and want the UK to remove itself immediately - regardless of how practical that is . 

Surely the correct move forward is what's best for the country
		
Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment but the bottom line is this, the UK wide electorate voted to leave the EU and that has to be respected regardless of the fallout that it entails, no second vote and no deal to remain regardless of how attractive it may mean. The democtratic process has to be respected. If we do deals and don't come out it makes a mockery of the referendum.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends on what you class as a majority.  More than voted the other way then yes.  A sizeable proportion of the electorate then no.  You can compare it to the Muirfield election to not allow women, in that case a majority by one definition voted yes to it but it did not pass.

But I agree the rules are the rules and technically we should just man up and reap what we sow to a certain extent.
		
Click to expand...

Over 50% yes.

It really didn't matter if it was 1 vote or 10M votes difference in the case of this referendum. 

Like you say rules are rules and we can't go changing them now afterwards because we didn't get what we wanted.

If England lose against Iceland tonight maybe we should ask for a rematch? It won't happen and neither will another EU referendum. &#128556;

We should take our time and do it right of course but the will of the people must prevail.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Who is we? Do you not think the vote needed to go the same way over the 4 parts of the UK? If all voted Brexit then crack on but they didn't. That should have been set out at the start imo. 2 of the 4 areas voted separately so there is no mandate for all the UK, just for England and Wales, pushing forward now with Brexit divides and could split the UK up. Maybe it ends up like that but these issues need to be ironed out before the UK rushes into this. legally a referendum is not like an election, the result of it does not have to be enacted. 
Cameron bailed as he won't sign article 50, whomoever does sign article 50 to get this moving is a dead duck, that's whey they're all keeping their heads down, whomever sticks their head above the trench is going to lose it, tactics have gone badly wrong for all wannabee PM's as no-one wants to do this (at government level). Farage would but he's not a player.

This will rumble on and I also wouldn't be surprised if Brexit doesn't happen.
		
Click to expand...

We is the United Kingodom as one, the vote was as one and has to be respected as one. That is democracy.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			FTFY

Quite a few have already come out and noted they voted that way but didn't _actually_&#8203; want to leave. Messr's Johnson and Gove share the feeling I believe.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter now though, the result was pretty clear.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Corbyn as a leader should reflect his party. As a back bencher he could have his mini crusades and push his fringe agendas with the likes of Hamas. As a leader he should be a team captain. Unfortunately, the A-team don't want him, and picking the B-team won't win an election.
		
Click to expand...

I have distinct doubts about whether the A-team was ever likely to win an election!

Though more and more UK elections have become 'presidential' with a the leaders slugging it out, with occasional assistance from 'assistants' like (Shadow) Chancellors. In that respect, Corbyn has been pretty poor. Now could well be an excellent time to ditch him, which, though the only real replacement I can see is Yvette Cooper - all the others seem too light-weight to me!


----------



## User62651 (Jun 27, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Over 50% yes.

If England lose against Iceland tonight maybe we should ask for a rematch? It won't happen and neither will another EU referendum. &#63020;
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but a bunch of overpaid premadonnas having a little sulk before they get back to doing their shampoo adverts is hardly the same thing as the economy crashing and millions of ordinary people losing jobs and rights and access for them and their kids to careers and colleges across Europe.
This was an anti-austerity protest vote to give Cameron a kicking, is it clear from the Brexit big guns response they don't have a clue and it was all about vying for PM, little to do with the EU, needs to be at least a second vote to reaffirm the view. You dont screw up future generations futures because ignoring a referendum is seen by some as opportunistic or disingenous.

Government have governed recklessly, HM should come in and void this whole thing as Head of State, put Cameron and Johnson in the stocks outside the Tower of London for a good public pelting.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I have distinct doubts about whether the A-team was ever likely to win an election!

Though more and more UK elections have become 'presidential' with a the leaders slugging it out, with occasional assistance from 'assistants' like (Shadow) Chancellors. In that respect, Corbyn has been pretty poor. Now could well be an excellent time to ditch him, which, though the only real replacement I can see is Yvette Cooper - all the others seem too light-weight to me!
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Dysfunctional and not fit for purpose at the moment and I can't see labour becoming electable any time soon. As well as splitting the country this vote has massively split the labour heartlands. I can see the Libdems doing very well at the next election if they set their stall out properly. Similar to what happened in Scotland with the SNP last time. If they do, Labour may be effectively finished.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2016)

Renewed calls for a third runway at Heathrow this morning...

Apparently the biggest hindrance to UK growth was not the way old folk voted, last Thursday, but lack of runways in the south east...

BTW remainers 'experts' predicted the third runway scheme being kaiboshed due to exit vote...


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			If England lose against Iceland tonight maybe we should ask for a rematch? It won't happen and neither will another EU referendum. &#128556;
		
Click to expand...

If the game was won in unfair circumstances there is precedent for a replay, as I'm sure you remember!


----------



## GB72 (Jun 27, 2016)

Whilst I am not trying to contest the results of the referendum, I do think that agreement should be reached to put the whole process on hold. I am not proposing ignoring the vote, I just think that now is the time for caution. 
To me the whole process was rushed. Each of the 2 â€˜partiesâ€™ in the campaign should have been asked to draw up manifesto documents with detailed plans for what would happen in the event of each outcome and with spending proposals for any savings that were made on EU membership costs. Instead both sides relied on hypothesis, rhetoric and crowd pleasing slogans. 
What we have now is a position whereby nobody knows what to dp now. Frighteningly similar to the wars in the Gulf, everyone knew what result they wanted but had no idea what to do when they got it. 
To push on now with no leadership, no defined policy and no idea what to do would be madness. Surely now is the time to say that the people have spoken, they have given a policy that has to be followed through by this or successive governments but that now firm plans have to be put in place to work out how and when this is actually going to happen. 
Worryingly it appears that both sides assumed that the other one would have a plan in place should the Brexit vote win and neither did. On that point I would have thought it would have been sensible for Cammeron to announce that he would resign in the event of defeat so that it was clear that someone else would have to pick up the pieces once the result was known.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Brilliant piece, nails it. And how depressing our new reality is.
		
Click to expand...

No it's not, it's one journalist's opinion. 

OK the future may be a bit uncertain but rather than doom and gloom we should be optimistic that we have a chance to create something better. If that doesn't happen then fair enough, then it's time for the doom and gloom. But this is going to be a long slow process not an overnight success.

Bit like golf lessons, sometimes you have to go backwards to move forwards  :thup:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Whilst I am not trying to contest the results of the referendum, I do think that agreement should be reached to put the whole process on hold. I am not proposing ignoring the vote, I just think that now is the time for caution. 
To me the whole process was rushed. *Each of the 2 â€˜partiesâ€™ in the campaign should have been asked to draw up manifesto documents with detailed plans for what would happen in the event of each outcome and with spending proposals for any savings that were made on EU membership costs. Instead both sides relied on hypothesis, rhetoric and crowd pleasing slogans. *
What we have now is a position whereby nobody knows what to dp now. Frighteningly similar to the wars in the Gulf, everyone knew what result they wanted but had no idea what to do when they got it. 
To push on now with no leadership, no defined policy and no idea what to do would be madness. Surely now is the time to say that the people have spoken, they have given a policy that has to be followed through by this or successive governments but that now firm plans have to be put in place to work out how and when this is actually going to happen. 
Worryingly it appears that both sides assumed that the other one would have a plan in place should the Brexit vote win and neither did. On that point I would have thought it would have been sensible for Cammeron to announce that he would resign in the event of defeat so that it was clear that someone else would have to pick up the pieces once the result was known.
		
Click to expand...

How can the stay campaign have come up with detailed plans for any savings made from coming out of the EU?  If they would have won we would pretty much have carried on as normal, nothing would have changed, no stock market shocks etc etc.  So why they needed a plan to pretty much carry on as before is a bit unclear to me.

It was obvious that if we came out there would be massive political and economic turmoil.  So surely it those that were promoting this option should have some answers now, instead of the vacuum we are getting? The stayers are gone, they no longer make the decisions.

Plus if any side had bothered making any detailed plans you know as well as me what would have been said about them. Scaremongering by so called experts, and then people would have mostly ignored them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Whilst I am not trying to contest the results of the referendum, I do think that agreement should be reached to put the whole process on hold. I am not proposing ignoring the vote, I just think that now is the time for caution. 
To me the whole process was rushed. Each of the 2 â€˜partiesâ€™ in the campaign should have been asked to draw up manifesto documents with detailed plans for what would happen in the event of each outcome and with spending proposals for any savings that were made on EU membership costs. Instead both sides relied on hypothesis, rhetoric and crowd pleasing slogans. 
What we have now is a position whereby nobody knows what to dp now. Frighteningly similar to the wars in the Gulf, everyone knew what result they wanted but had no idea what to do when they got it. 
To push on now with no leadership, no defined policy and no idea what to do would be madness. Surely now is the time to say that the people have spoken, they have given a policy that has to be followed through by this or successive governments but that now firm plans have to be put in place to work out how and when this is actually going to happen. 
Worryingly it appears that both sides assumed that the other one would have a plan in place should the Brexit vote win and neither did. On that point I would have thought it would have been sensible for Cammeron to announce that he would resign in the event of defeat so that it was clear that someone else would have to pick up the pieces once the result was known.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron was to blame for that.  He didn't need to hold the referendum until the end of 2017, he decided to rush it through after his disastrous negotiations with the EU.   I stated some time ago that the Government should have spent more time and considerations informing the public what the options and realistic outcomes would be either way and without the scare and spin tactics used to a degree on both sides.

 Cameron promised us throughout the campaign and only last week that he would remain as PM which ever way the vote went, his current actions show what a slimy piece of work he is.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 27, 2016)

Boris on the news just now saying that "markets are stable" is he for real.

On another note why do politicians never answer a question with a straight answer,bloody liars all of them.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			If the game was won in unfair circumstances there is precedent for a replay, as I'm sure you remember! 

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting the EU vote was unfair?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Boris on the news just now saying that "markets are stable" is he for real.

On another note why do politicians never answer a question with a straight answer,bloody liars all of them.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose the pound is stable at a 31 year low against the dollar.  As it's not the lowest in 40 years, so that's relative stability for you.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

No I'm not, both sides of the campaign were poor I thought.

But when you win a vote on the basis of an outright lie many people will feel aggrieved I expect.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Whilst I am not trying to contest the results of the referendum, I do think that agreement should be reached to put the whole process on hold. I am not proposing ignoring the vote, I just think that now is the time for caution. 
To me the whole process was rushed. Each of the 2 â€˜partiesâ€™ in the campaign should have been asked to draw up manifesto documents with detailed plans for what would happen in the event of each outcome and with spending proposals for any savings that were made on EU membership costs. Instead both sides relied on hypothesis, rhetoric and crowd pleasing slogans. 
What we have now is a position whereby nobody knows what to dp now. Frighteningly similar to the wars in the Gulf, everyone knew what result they wanted but had no idea what to do when they got it. 
To push on now with no leadership, no defined policy and no idea what to do would be madness. Surely now is the time to say that the people have spoken, they have given a policy that has to be followed through by this or successive governments but that now firm plans have to be put in place to work out how and when this is actually going to happen. 
Worryingly it appears that both sides assumed that the other one would have a plan in place should the Brexit vote win and neither did. On that point I would have thought it would have been sensible for Cammeron to announce that he would resign in the event of defeat so that it was clear that someone else would have to pick up the pieces once the result was known.
		
Click to expand...

If the Remain campaign was unable to get the message across that the Brexit folk didn't have a plan - and there was certainly 'mention' of it, then they only have themselves to blame!

There is plenty of time to consider what should happen now - Cameron/Osborne will still be running the show until October and, in spite of what they would have us believe, politicians are not actually in control of the intimate day-to-day running of the country. They are, and must be, able to tweak macro-ish controls in order to flatten (or reduce) the effects that particular events might have!

As it is, the markets are actually reacting pretty much as predicted, even though the market predictions themselves were rather awry during the actual referendum - but that was no different to the way in-play betting works!

Most of the actual post-referendum events have been entirely predictable...certainly Cameron's stepping down, Corbyn's rebellion, the FTSE and GBP decline and the admission by Bozo that a) there is no plan and b) they lied (just as the Remainers did!)! Same really goes for the reaction from EU and EU countries - particularly the French about Calais!

There doesn't seem to be any necessity for hasty Article 50 declaration! And before that happens, there's plenty of scope for 'negotiation' about how best to proceed once it is declared. The only issue is the continued membership cost and the potential for a flood of EU immigrants hoping to avoid 'controls' before they are imposed!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			If the Remain campaign was unable to get the message across that the Brexit folk didn't have a plan - and there was certainly 'mention' of it, then they only have themselves to blame!

There is plenty of time to consider what should happen now - Cameron/Osborne will still be running the show until October and, in spite of what they would have us believe, politicians are not actually in control of the intimate day-to-day running of the country. They are, and must be, able to tweak macro-ish controls in order to flatten (or reduce) the effects that particular events might have!

As it is, the markets are actually reacting pretty much as predicted, even though the market predictions themselves were rather awry during the actual referendum - but that was no different to the way in-play betting works!

Most of the actual post-referendum events have been entirely predictable...certainly Cameron's stepping down, Corbyn's rebellion, the FTSE and GBP decline and the admission by Bozo that a) there is no plan and b) they lied (just as the Remainers did!)! Same really goes for the reaction from EU and EU countries - particularly the French about Calais!

There doesn't seem to be any necessity for hasty Article 50 declaration! And before that happens, there's plenty of scope for 'negotiation' about how best to proceed once it is declared. The only issue is the continued membership cost and the *potential for a flood of EU immigrants* hoping to avoid 'controls' before they are imposed!
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear god I hope that happens. As that would be the ultimate irony of this all, more EU immigrants.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			But when you win a vote on the basis of an outright lie many people will feel aggrieved I expect.
		
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on your viewpoint. If we had stayed in then leave campaigners could say exactly the same thing. Both sides told lies. It was no different to a general election campaign really.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			No I'm not, both sides of the campaign were poor I thought.

But when you win a vote on the basis of an outright lie many people will feel aggrieved I expect.
		
Click to expand...

Like the lie fed to the Scottish people was that the only way to remain in the EU was vote NO in the Scottish referendum.

No wonder Sturgeon has her knickers in a twist.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

I don't recall such a prominent, outright, disprovable lie such as the Â£350m/week to the NHS from Remain - as poor as their campaign was - though happy to be corrected?

To be honest if there's anything left of that Â£350m/week by the time we actually leave the EU I will be quite surprised!


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Like the lie fed to the Scottish people was that the only way to remain in the EU was vote NO in the Scottish referendum.

No wonder Sturgeon has her knickers in a twist.
		
Click to expand...

Scots fully within their right to feel aggrieved, and expect they will vote for independence as a result.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Scots fully within their right to feel aggrieved, and expect they will vote for independence as a result.
		
Click to expand...

Hope not


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I don't recall such a prominent, outright, disprovable lie such as the Â£350m/week to the NHS from Remain - as poor as their campaign was - though happy to be corrected?

To be honest if there's anything left of that Â£350m/week by the time we actually leave the EU I will be quite surprised!
		
Click to expand...

It was Farage that came out with that comment initially and you don't have to be brain of Britain to realise he isn't even an MP and has no say over how any savings could/would be spent. Anyone could work out that what he meant is we will save money that will be available to spend on other things.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			It was Farage that came out with that comment initially and you don't have to be brain of Britain to realise he isn't even an MP and has no say over how any savings could/would be spent. Anyone could work out that what he meant is we will save money that will be available to spend on other things.
		
Click to expand...

Boris seemed pretty happy to be pictured next to it.  



And why make specific statements about the NHS, knowing it was a mistruth at best, a downright lie at worst, other than to be a cynical dishonest vote winner to those easily swayed by glib political soundbites.


----------



## Rooter (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			It was Farage that came out with that comment initially and you don't have to be brain of Britain to realise he isn't even an MP and has no say over how any savings could/would be spent. Anyone could work out that what he meant is we will save money that will be available to spend on other things.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't someone sign off the printing of a huge bus with it though? its not just a farage quote that went wrong..


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

It was the official Vote Leave campaign (Boris, Gove, no association to Farage) which had it on the side of their bus and promotional materials.

And I guess it will only be a saving if the economy doesn't contract by an equivalent amount in the mean time!


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			No I'm not, both sides of the campaign were poor I thought.

But when you win a vote on the basis of an outright lie many people will feel aggrieved I expect.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure I heard Cameron say he would stay on and see it through wether he won or lost,not that this would have swayed a vote but as I said earlier they all lie.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			No I'm not, both sides of the campaign were poor I thought.

But when you win a vote on the basis of an outright lie many people will feel aggrieved I expect.
		
Click to expand...


Although an 'exiter' in the end I did not register my vote as I couldn't reconcile with a lot of the leave campaigns propaganda... 

WW3 and a punishment budget [amongst other utterings from remain] didn't go down well either though...


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 27, 2016)

Guy in our office quite upset today after being verbally abused whilst picking his girlfriend up at Edinburgh Airport last night. Saddening that it happened at all, let alone the fact it was her first experience of Scotland...


----------



## Rooter (Jun 27, 2016)

Every cloud though, my commission gets paid in US$. Basically had a 10% rise! Thank you Brexit!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Boris seemed pretty happy to be pictured next to it.  
View attachment 19882


And why make specific statements about the NHS, knowing it was a mistruth at best, a downright lie at worst, other than to be a cynical dishonest vote winner to those easily swayed by glib political soundbites.
		
Click to expand...




Rooter said:



			Didn't someone sign off the printing of a huge bus with it though? its not just a farage quote that went wrong..

View attachment 19883
View attachment 19884

Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of those pics actually say we WILL give Â£350m to the NHS?


----------



## Rooter (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of those pics actually say we WILL give Â£350m to the NHS?
		
Click to expand...

What are they implying though?

And to be fair, 'Let's give our NHS the 350mil the EU take every week' is pretty cut and dried no??


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

"Let's give our NHS the Â£350 million the EU takes every week"... very clear to me.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Boris seemed pretty happy to be pictured next to it.  
View attachment 19882


And why make specific statements about the NHS, knowing it was a mistruth at best, a downright lie at worst, other than to be a cynical dishonest vote winner to those easily swayed by glib political soundbites.
		
Click to expand...




Rooter said:



			Didn't someone sign off the printing of a huge bus with it though? its not just a farage quote that went wrong..

View attachment 19883
View attachment 19884

Click to expand...




Rooter said:



			What are they implying though?

And to be fair, 'Let's give our NHS the 350mil the EU take every week' is pretty cut and dried no??
		
Click to expand...




jp5 said:



			"Let's give our NHS the Â£350 million the EU takes every week"... very clear to me.
		
Click to expand...

Suggestive? Deceptive? Yes they are I agree.

But they are not clear statements that we WILL give 350m to the NHS.


----------



## Rooter (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Suggestive? Deceptive? Yes they are I agree.

But they are not clear statements that we WILL give 350m to the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Let me take this 20quid* note out of my wallet and give it to you...

Want your 20? tough, i was merely suggesting it.


*(apologies, i have an American laptop with no Pound sign)


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of those pics actually say we WILL give Â£350m to the NHS?
		
Click to expand...

To quote Mike from The Young Ones, on instructions for video recorders it doesn't say _"Ensure you don't chop up your video machine with an axe, put all the bits in a plastic bag, and bung 'em down the lavatory"!_

It is just implied.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 27, 2016)

Val said:



			I agree with the sentiment but the bottom line is this, the UK wide electorate voted to leave the EU and that has to be respected regardless of the fallout that it entails, no second vote and no deal to remain regardless of how attractive it may mean. The democtratic process has to be respected. If we do deals and don't come out it makes a mockery of the referendum.
		
Click to expand...

But the simple truth is that they don't...
The referendum was advisory only. If the Government choose to ignore it, they can.
What that will do to the Political landscape, I don't know, but Westminster is under no obligation to go through with it.
And with such a small majority it wouldn't surprise me if they dl ignore it.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

Well it's very clear that they won't do it... but that's what they committed to.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

Rooter said:



			Let me take this 20quid* note out of my wallet and give it to you...

Want your 20? tough, i was merely suggesting it.


*(apologies, i have an American laptop with no Pound sign)
		
Click to expand...

That's OK, dollars are worth almost as much as pounds just now  

Put it another way, if you said that and I took you to court, do you think I would win? I certainly don't.


----------



## Rooter (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			That's OK, dollars are worth almost as much as pounds just now  

Put it another way, if you said that and I took you to court, do you think I would win? I certainly don't.
		
Click to expand...

If i wrote it down and addressed the nation, no WORLD, with that statement in words and in print behind me, i think the case could be very interesting..


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Suggestive? Deceptive? Yes they are I agree.

But they are not clear statements that we WILL give 350m to the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose it's a mater of which circle of hell the de facto leader of this country at the moment wants to be in then, the 'suggestive and deceptive' one or the 'lying' one. Neither of which are great for the future of this country.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I understand what the Daily Mash is and how it uses sarcasm to put it's view out.  Call it humour if it suits.

What offends me is not that but the link you used had 'Ageist' undertones and for me Ageism is no better than Racism as it is used to vilify groups of people in the community.    Your link to it with no other comment, not even a smiley suggests to me you are in support of the message it gives.  

Please dont' suggest that it's just a joke and not meant seriously, that would be more of an insult to your intelligence than mine.
		
Click to expand...

Welcome to the PC Brigade, SR, you are most welcome. 

There's still hope for the rest of you!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Like the lie fed to the Scottish people was that the only way to remain in the EU was vote NO in the Scottish referendum.

No wonder Sturgeon has her knickers in a twist.
		
Click to expand...

That was true in the context of that referendum. If we'd voted yes back then we would have been out then.

Unfortunately only two years later boris, gove and co have screwed it all up.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Not in my househould. Daughter aged 25, Son aged 27, and twin boys at 19 all voted "in".
		
Click to expand...

Eh?  I checked what I actually said in full, and my words _'in fact it was the under 30s who voted us out'_ when taken in isolation and out of context are (as you suggest) wrong.  But you'll see that in context that they take a different meaning.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2016)

The oldie's have taken a lot of stick for the way they, in the main, voted.

However, a different slant. Only 36% of the under 25's voted compared to over 75% over the over 45's. Maybe if the youngsters really cared they would have voted. And if they had voted they would have swung it by miles. So maybe the next time a youngster kicks off, perhaps he should take a look at their peers


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Guy in our office quite upset today after *being verbally abused* whilst picking his girlfriend up at Edinburgh Airport last night. Saddening that it happened at all, let alone the fact it was her first experience of Scotland...
		
Click to expand...

For what reason?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

Breaking news -UEFA have just changed the rules for 2016 - if you don't win by 3 clear goals the match is considered a draw and both teams must blub into buckets. The first team to fill the bucket will be declared the winner.  Those that spit their dummies out will be red carded and their contribution will not count.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The oldie's have taken a lot of stick for the way they, in the main, voted.

However, a different slant. Only 36% of the under 25's voted compared to over 75% over the over 45's. Maybe if the youngsters really cared they would have voted. And if they had voted they would have swung it by miles. So maybe the next time a youngster kicks off, perhaps he should take a look at their peers
		
Click to expand...


If you don't vote then don't complain. It's a very simple concept. It's not as if they can complain they didn't know the vote was happening. I was in the Remain camp but we lost. No point having a hissy fit about it, we need to get on with the decision that has been made.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The oldie's have taken a lot of stick for the way they, in the main, voted.

However, a different slant. Only 36% of the under 25's voted compared to over 75% over the over 45's. Maybe if the youngsters really cared they would have voted. And if they had voted they would have swung it by miles. So maybe the next time a youngster kicks off, perhaps he should take a look at their peers
		
Click to expand...

I heard a 26yo guy on Radio5live on Saturday morning in tears that 'the older generations have sold the youngsters down the river'

Sorry mate but it's one man one vote.....use it!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you don't vote then don't complain. It's a very simple concept. It's not as if they can complain they didn't know the vote was happening. I was in the Remain camp but we lost. No point having a hissy fit about it, we need to get on with the decision that has been made.
		
Click to expand...

I'm Remain too, and deeply disappointed. I just don't get the whinging. Its a democratic process. Someone else had the winning raffle ticket.


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you don't vote then don't complain. It's a very simple concept.
		
Click to expand...

I said this to my 21 year old the other day who didnt vote, in fact the only vote he ever did was a yes in the Scottish referendum.

I said use your vote regardless, if you are happy with what you have vote for what you have if you are not then vote opposite just make sure you vote. If you don't vote then don't moan about roads, taxes, casualty wait times etc etc


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

I think the next Forum mega meet should be a match play between the leavers and stayers. 

It would be brilliant, puts left one cm short would be met with _'I'm seeing that_', you ask someone their handicap and when they say 13.2 the leavers reply '_I don't trust the so called COGNU experts'_ and then when the stayers unexpectedly lose as the oldies on the leavers team take it more seriously, the stayers would immediately demand a rematch.  And the individual teams would all fall out with themselves in the bar afterwards.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 27, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Suggestive? Deceptive? Yes they are I agree.

But they are not clear statements that we WILL give 350m to the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair to Farage I didn't hear him say that either and said it was a mistake by the leave campaign.

PM speaking now on 5live, everything under control , contingencies in place and reaffirmed that they will press ahead with article 50. Hopefully put a stop to the nonsense speculation and scaremongering.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the next Forum mega meet should be a match play between the leavers and stayers. 

It would be brilliant, puts left one cm short would be met with _'I'm seeing that_', you ask someone their handicap and when they say 13.2 the leavers reply '_I don't trust the so called COGNU experts'_ and then when the stayers unexpectedly lose as the oldies on the leavers team take it more seriously, the stayers would immediately demand a rematch.  And the individual teams would all fall out with themselves in the bar afterwards.

Click to expand...

:lol:


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 27, 2016)

Val said:



			For what reason?
		
Click to expand...

Simply for being Spanish. Aparently they'll soon be heading "home" because it's "what we voted for"...


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Simply for being Spanish. Aparently they'll soon be heading "home" because it's "what we voted for"...
		
Click to expand...

Despite Scotland voting remain? Sounds like BS to me.


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 27, 2016)

Are you really questioning this? I spoke with him this morning. He explained what happened. I believe that it happened, why would he lie, he's a perfectly trustworthy young man who is genuinely concerned about his girlfriend's experience in Scotland being a positive one, as he probably hopes she'll follow him here. It's one drunken idiot, they do exist. Surely that's not hard to believe.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 27, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Are you really questioning this? I spoke with him this morning. He explained what happened. I believe that it happened, why would he lie, he's a perfectly trustworthy young man who is genuinely concerned about his girlfriend's experience in Scotland being a positive one, as he probably hopes she'll follow him here. *It's one drunken idiot, they do exist*. Surely that's not hard to believe.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully you have hit the nail on the head there and neither of them will be put off.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

Problem is that many idiots feel validated by the result of this vote.

Wherever we see this abuse it has to be called out and made known that it is not acceptable.


----------



## G.U.R (Jun 27, 2016)

Interesting quote I heard "Not all Leave voters are Racist, but all Racists now think 52% of the population agree with them". Tar and brushes springs to mind.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			To be fair to Farage I didn't hear him say that either and said it was *a mistake by the leave campaign.*

PM speaking now on 5live, everything under control , contingencies in place and reaffirmed that they will press ahead with article 50. Hopefully put a stop to the nonsense speculation and scaremongering.
		
Click to expand...

A mistake?  Well let's for a moment just accept that _Leave _got their sums wrong and it *was *a mistake.  The problem with that argument is that the 'mistake' was pointed out as soon as the Boggle Bus appeared with it plastered all over the side.  But _Leave _continued denial that it was wrong throughout the campaign and used all possible semantics to avoid admitting it was wrong.

No - _Leave_ knew it was wrong from the word go, but their tacticians had told them to get a 'big number' out there and stick to it.  The longer the number was out there the idea would implant itself in voters heads as 'an awful lot of money' - a third of a billion pounds in fact.  For _Leave_ - if it's sounds true then that's good enough.

Of course were _Leave_ to admit it was wrong and withdraw the number, then of course that would look bad and would make the electorate wonder about other things they'd said.  No - Leave just left it there because they thought that once they'd lost the vote no-one would be bothered, and if by some weirdness they won - then no-one would care.  They were wrong on both counts.

And remember that the important difference between the Â£350m figure and all the stuff that _Remain _said that is being rubbished as untruth - is that the Â£350m is based upon known FACT, most of what _Remain _said that is being cited as 'lies' were predictions.  A prediction can never be a lie - it can be inaccurate - but it can't be wrong or a lie.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

G.U.R said:



			Interesting quote I heard "Not all Leave voters are Racist, but all Racists now think 52% of the population agree with them". Tar and brushes springs to mind.
		
Click to expand...

Are you implying that 52% agree with the racists or just enjoying quoting some idiotic non ratified throw away remark.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			To be fair to Farage I didn't hear him say that either and said it was a mistake by the leave campaign.

PM speaking now on 5live, everything under control , contingencies in place and reaffirmed that they will press ahead with article 50. *Hopefully put a stop to the nonsense speculation and scaremongering.*

Click to expand...

Indeed as 'speculation' and 'scaremongering' become 'events' and 'reporting the reality'.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Are you implying that 52% agree with the racists or just enjoying quoting some idiotic non ratified throw away remark.
		
Click to expand...

There does seem to be an alarming spike in racist incidents.
How can that be explained away.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There does seem to be an alarming spike in racist incidents.
How can that be explained away.
		
Click to expand...

There's a hell of a lot of utter morons in this Country


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair comment but whatever arrangement is made it must include the UK being separated from the EU politically.
		
Click to expand...

Surely whatever arrangement is made the main priority is whatever is best for the UK - that should be the main priority because by law the vote is not legally binding so if the government decides that the best course of action is staying in but with better deals within the EU 

The most important priority will always be what is best for the UK and not ensuring we are out of the away politically. 

You only have to listen to everyone talking about the future that it's clear they will look for a solution.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

Imurg said:



			There's a hell of a lot of utter morons in this Country
		
Click to expand...

Who all - each and very one of them - deserved and used well their vote - this is a democracy after all.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There does seem to be an alarming spike in racist incidents.
How can that be explained away.
		
Click to expand...

Media choose to publicise it more?

I'm sure you could make a case for an increase in anything if you put story after story in the news. My guess is that a lot of it went on before but now it's suddenly newsworthy.

Then of course you get the copy cat morons to add insult to injury.


----------



## IainP (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There does seem to be an alarming spike in racist incidents.
How can that be explained away.
		
Click to expand...

Or just receiving national media attention, rather than local news only?


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

Police say 60% increase in racist incidents since Friday.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There does seem to be an alarming spike in racist incidents.
How can that be explained away.
		
Click to expand...

If throw away remarks are to be believed it's even happened in Scotland, against someone Spanish. Makes a change from having a go at the English I suppose :lol:


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Police say 60% increase in racist incidents since Friday.
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope they get out of their nice shinney toys and deal with it.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 27, 2016)




----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Police say 60% increase in racist incidents since Friday.
		
Click to expand...

'Roll up our sleeves and get on' with it has obviously been miss interpreted.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who all - each and very one of them - deserved and used well their vote - this is a democracy after all.
		
Click to expand...

Well, you're assuming they voted - no guarantee of that.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely whatever arrangement is made the main priority is whatever is best for the UK - that should be the main priority because by law the vote is not legally binding so if the government decides that the best course of action is staying in but with better deals within the EU 

The most important priority will always be what is best for the UK and not ensuring we are out of the away politically. 

You only have to listen to everyone talking about the future that it's clear they will look for a solution.
		
Click to expand...

You don't seem to get it.   The main consideration is democracy not what is necessarily best for the UK, although one would hope that it would be a major consideration.   What is best for the UK is quite subjective and we should have all realised this after the discussions that have taken place over the last few months, I might think it's mainly to do with sovereignty, you may think it's to do with workers rights or multiculturalism for example so it's not that simple.

Regarding whether the referendum is legally binding or not is peeing into the wind, it will mean we exit the EU and that is something we can be certain of.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 27, 2016)

Leave means many things though. It could be an all out, which would put us in the same box as the US, or it could be the Norwegian model, where we pay to be in the EFA, still have open borders to citizens of the EU, but don't have to be part of the European super state, and can ignore some of the more daft edicts from Brussels.  
If we go down the Norwegian route, then not much will really have changed, and all this grief and hand wringing will have been pointless. Yep, we will have brexit, as voted for, but in reality, we will still be in Europe.  Ok, we won't have a say at top table, but if we are ignoring the majority of the guff they come out with, does it matter?

The Norwegian route seems to me like the fudge most are looking for. Security by being in the EFA, still able to travel and work in the EU, the city will be happy enough. Ok, the true exitters will have the hump, as it's exit without exit, but for most it would work.

How about changing the thread into how we proceed, and benefits of out, or more out, rather than continuing with the sniping?


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 27, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If throw away remarks are to be believed it's even happened in Scotland, against someone Spanish. Makes a change from having a go at the English I suppose :lol:
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe I'm reading that you don't believe what you've been reading, which I wrote.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to get it.   The main consideration is democracy not what is necessarily best for the UK, although one would hope that it would be a major consideration.   What is best for the UK is quite subjective and we should have all realised this after the discussions that have taken place over the last few months, I might think it's mainly to do with sovereignty, you may think it's to do with workers rights or multiculturalism for example so it's not as simple.

Regarding whether the referendum is legally binding or not is peeing into the wind, it will mean we exit the EU and *that is something we can be certain of*.
		
Click to expand...

Given the referendum is advisory I think that that is a prediction rather than a fact.  And so there will remain uncertainty around it happening until it does - or Article 50 is invoked for secession, and even then...

As far as sovereignty is concerned.  You only have it absolutely until you enter into an agreement with another, regardless of whether that agreement is voluntary or otherwise.   Immediately you enter into any such (e.g. trade) agreement you give away some of your sovereignty.  So how much sovereignty are Leave actually after - the sovereignty to give it away by the sounds of it?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to get it.   The main consideration is democracy not what is necessarily best for the UK, although one would hope that it would be a major consideration.   What is best for the UK is quite subjective and we should have all realised this after the discussions that have taken place over the last few months, I might think it's mainly to do with sovereignty, you may think it's to do with workers rights or multiculturalism for example so it's not that simple.

Regarding whether the referendum is legally binding or not is peeing into the wind, it will mean we exit the EU and that is something we can be certain of.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I get it - you are a true Brexiter whatever they are called that no matter what the affect is to the nation the main priority is leaving the EU - it doesn't matter if it puts us the nation into financial meltdown with a severe loss in business and trade and jobs and housing market - all of that would be secondary because we would no longer be within the EU

Where as my sole aim is what is best for the whole nation - our economy right now is on a knife edge - we have built it back up and a lot of people have worked damn hard and I'm worried that we could make massive steps backward - if the chance of that happening then I want our elected government to ensure they pursue everything single avenue to protect our nation now and for the future , If that means going against a narrow vote then so be it - it will be for the good of the nation 

The government asked the people their opinion and the people gave it ( even though some seem to want to change their mind ) - right now that is all it is and will be until they decide to act on it but I will say it again - I hope whatever they do it will be what they believe is best for all of us


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 27, 2016)

That sounds fantastically arrogant. Who decides what is best for the country? Should it be back to an elite, those with a title only? Only people with a degree from an approved university? We have one person one vote in this country and thank heaven's for that. You may not like the outcome but that sometimes happens in life.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given the referendum is advisory I think that that is a prediction rather than a fact.  And so there will remain uncertainty around it happening until it does - or Article 50 is invoked for secession, and even then...

As far as sovereignty is concerned.  You only have it absolutely until you enter into an agreement with another, regardless of whether that agreement is voluntary or otherwise.   Immediately you enter into any such (e.g. trade) agreement you give away some of your sovereignty.  So how much sovereignty are Leave actually after - the sovereignty to give it away by the sounds of it?
		
Click to expand...



You don't get it either.   The sovereignty comment wasn't a point I was making, rather an example of how different people think what is good for the UK is not always the same.

When you say the result is only advisory I guess that is a one way street comment.  Just imagine what would happen if the vote had been in favour of Remain and the Government decided to take us out as it was only advisory.  I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the likes of you and the rest of the Remainers.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:





SocketRocket said:



			Fair comment but whatever arrangement is made it must include the UK being separated from the EU politically.
		
Click to expand...

Surely whatever arrangement is made the main priority is whatever is best for the UK - that should be the main priority because by law the vote is not legally binding so if the government decides that the best course of action is staying in but with better deals within the EU 

The most important priority will always be what is best for the UK and not ensuring we are out of the away politically. 

You only have to listen to everyone talking about the future that it's clear they will look for a solution.
		
Click to expand...

I'm absolutely WITH Socket on this!

The issue was put to a referendum and the result was an OUT vote - whether for good reasons or bad (as a Remain could just as easily have been).

So absolutely no going back from a Brexit! But some serious negotiations could well be involved! The starting point, of course, will be tariffs on all UK/EU trade (for which the EU will actually suffer more than UK will, but both will suffer!). And UK Border Force would have to be reinforced to cope with significantly more 'leakage' through France!

The decision as to 'what's best for the country' was put to the country on Thursday! Now it's up to the government to make the best of that decision!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That sounds fantastically arrogant. Who decides what is best for the country? Should it be back to an elite, those with a title only? Only people with a degree from an approved university? We have one person one vote in this country and thank heaven's for that. You may not like the outcome but that sometimes happens in life.
		
Click to expand...

Do we not vote every four years for people to do what they think is best for the country then ? Is that arrogant ever four years then or should we ask them to ask us all on every single issues that could affect us 

We elect people to run our nation and we must trust them to do what is best for us all - they have resources to get people to do their very best to judge what is the best way forward for our nation and when it comes to something as crucial as our future then I hope they do ensure they cover everything single way forward to see what they think is the best way.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh I get it - you are a true Brexiter whatever they are called that no matter what the affect is to the nation the main priority is leaving the EU - it doesn't matter if it puts us the nation into financial meltdown with a severe loss in business and trade and jobs and housing market - all of that would be secondary because we would no longer be within the EU

Where as my sole aim is what is best for the whole nation - our economy right now is on a knife edge - we have built it back up and a lot of people have worked damn hard and I'm worried that we could make massive steps backward - if the chance of that happening then I want our elected government to ensure they pursue everything single avenue to protect our nation now and for the future , If that means going against a narrow vote then so be it - it will be for the good of the nation 

The government asked the people their opinion and the people gave it ( even though some seem to want to change their mind ) - right now that is all it is and will be until they decide to act on it but I will say it again - I hope whatever they do it will be what they believe is best for all of us
		
Click to expand...

You still dont get this democracy thing, do you?

In history lots of people thought they knew what was best for the people, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung , Napoleon to name a few.   To suggest a Government can ask the people to make a decision on their future then ignore the democratic result is really stupid, sorry but I cannot think of any other way to describe it.   As I posted previously, just imagine if the vote had been to remain but the Government had decided to take us out anyway.

Regarding the financial markets.  They will settle soon and much of what has happened is only correcting some of the artificial hikes of late.   Barclays for example lost 17% but last week jumped up 10% and has been much lower over the past five years.   It was obvious there would be an amount of market fluctuation if we Left the EU but we still have a sound economy so it will level up soon enough.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 27, 2016)

Can't believe folk still seem to be advocating the government should go against a referendum result. Get over it, it's going to happen. 
For what it's worth, imo the economy is taking such a hit because our own PM and Chancellor have spent months belittling the UK, now they are reaping what they have sown.
Finally, Scotland. What are they going on about. It was'nt a scottish vote, but the whole of the UK. You can't pick and choose regions that wish to comply with the result after the fact. Maybe Norwich, as the only city in the east to vote remain, should go for independence.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 27, 2016)

This was not a minor issue, it was clearly major and so it was put to the country as a standalone question. This is an incredibly rare happening. The gov't asked the people to decide and they did. Just because it didn't match your view does not make the decision less valid.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...Immediately you enter into any such (e.g. trade) agreement you give away some of your sovereignty....
		
Click to expand...

In the 'market driven' that UK is proud of, the above is rubbish!


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You still dont get this democracy thing, do you?

In history lots of people thought they knew what was best for the people, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung , Napoleon to name a few.   To suggest a Government can ask the people to make a decision on their future then ignore the democratic result is really stupid, sorry but I cannot think of any other way to describe it.   As I posted previously, just imagine if the vote had been to remain but the Government had decided to take us out anyway.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			I don't believe I'm reading that you don't believe what you've been reading, which I wrote.
		
Click to expand...

I have no reason not to believe you.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You still dont get this democracy thing, do you?

In history lots of people thought they knew what was best for the people, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung , Napoleon to name a few.   To suggest a Government can ask the people to make a decision on their future then ignore the democratic result is really stupid, sorry but I cannot think of any other way to describe it.   As I posted previously, just imagine if the vote had been to remain but the Government had decided to take us out anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Look I get that all you care about it leaving the EU - it's clear that's all that matters to you that the sooner we are away from the EU the better. 

Well I'm sorry but it's quite clear that they will not invoke Article 50 until they are satisfied with the negotiations and they are in the best interest of the U.K. - those negotiations can and I expect will take a good number of years when you consider the Swiss took over 9 years to negotiate favourable terms with the EU. Now I fully expect the government will be more concerned to making sure the right thing is done for the future of the nation - I'm not sure how you can even mention the likes of Hilter etc and attempt to find some relevance

The government won't ignore the result of the vote - I have no doubt they will have it in the forefront of their minds - the closeness of the result will certainly be clear , the aftermath right now will be clear , the affect it is having on people's lives will be clear and the reactions from a lot of people will be clear.


----------



## guest100718 (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Look I get that all you care about it leaving the EU - it's clear that's all that matters to you that the sooner we are away from the EU the better. 

Well I'm sorry but it's quite clear that they will not invoke Article 50 until they are satisfied with the negotiations and they are in the best interest of the U.K. - those negotiations can and I expect will take a good number of years when you consider the Swiss took over 9 years to negotiate favourable terms with the EU. Now I fully expect the government will be more concerned to making sure the right thing is done for the future of the nation - I'm not sure how you can even mention the likes of Hilter etc and attempt to find some relevance

The government won't ignore the result of the vote - I have no doubt they will have it in the forefront of their minds - the closeness of the result will certainly be clear , the aftermath right now will be clear , the affect it is having on people's lives will be clear and the reactions from a lot of people will be clear.
		
Click to expand...

What happened to wanting to close the thread?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

Just been catching upon one of my favourite bands!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvDcvdioCg8&feature=youtu.be

I think I know which way this Dalesman would have voted!

:rofl:


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given the referendum is advisory I think that that is a prediction rather than a fact.  And so there will remain uncertainty around it happening until it does
		
Click to expand...

Do you really believe that Parliament will not implement the result based on the question on the ballot paper.

There have been posts and threads were we have all blasted MPs for not following the wishes of the people or kept the their promises. Now we have been through a political democratic process you and others think they are now going to change it all around. Do you really think they are going to further blow their credibility.

Good luck with that.


----------



## One Planer (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Look I get that all you care about it leaving the EU - it's clear that's all that matters to you that the sooner we are away from the EU the better. 

Well I'm sorry but it's quite clear that they will not invoke Article 50 until they are satisfied with the negotiations and they are in the best interest of the U.K. - those negotiations can and I expect will take a good number of years when you consider the Swiss took over 9 years to negotiate favourable terms with the EU. Now I fully expect the government will be more concerned to making sure the right thing is done for the future of the nation - I'm not sure how you can even mention the likes of Hilter etc and attempt to find some relevance

The government won't ignore the result of the vote - I have no doubt they will have it in the forefront of their minds - the closeness of the result will certainly be clear , the aftermath right now will be clear , the affect it is having on people's lives will be clear and the reactions from a lot of people will be clear.
		
Click to expand...

There will be no formal negotiation until article 50 is enacted.

European ministers have confirmed as much this evening.

I'll admit to being completely neutral on the topic. I personally didn't vote as I couldn't be swayed either way. While I'm as patriotic as the next person I also see some of the benefits being part of a wider economic union can bring. 

I also see the negatives. 


I think an amicable separation can and will take place. It's in Europe's best interests to continue to trade with the UK. The terms of the trade will be key for all but people forget it's a big world with plenty more trading partners to be had.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			For what it's worth, imo the economy is taking such a hit because our own PM and Chancellor have spent months belittling the UK, now they are reaping what they have sown.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you've got to be incredibly ill-informed to come to that conclusion.

The economy is taking a hit because we have made a commitment to tear up our trading agreement with our biggest partners. 

Until such a time that we reach new agreements there will be uncertainty over what it means for businesses, so the downturn is not unexpected.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I'm sorry but it's quite clear that they will not invoke Article 50 until they are satisfied with the negotiations and they are in the best interest of the U.K.
		
Click to expand...

Well, EU leaders have made it clear they won't begin negotiations until Art.50 is triggered.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Look I get that all you care about it leaving the EU - it's clear that's all that matters to you that the sooner we are away from the EU the better. 

Well I'm sorry but it's quite clear that they will not invoke Article 50 until they are satisfied with the negotiations and they are in the best interest of the U.K. - those negotiations can and I expect will take a good number of years when you consider the Swiss took over 9 years to negotiate favourable terms with the EU. Now I fully expect the government will be more concerned to making sure the right thing is done for the future of the nation - I'm not sure how you can even mention the likes of Hilter etc and attempt to find some relevance

The government won't ignore the result of the vote - I have no doubt they will have it in the forefront of their minds - the closeness of the result will certainly be clear , the aftermath right now will be clear , the affect it is having on people's lives will be clear and the reactions from a lot of people will be clear.
		
Click to expand...

Regarding my own feelings on this, I am happy for us to take a few years to negotiate our exit and let the dust settle, if it can be done faster then thats also good so that we can get on with our future.   No real rush though.

There will be no discussions with the EU before Article 50 is invoked, Merkel has made that quite clear.  Discussions will then take up to two years, you cant compare Switzerland as they were not leaving the EU but setting up a trade deal with them.

I mentioned Hitler etc as they were examples who ignored their people and decide what they thought was best for them, just like it would be if our government decided to ignore the referendum result.  A very apt comparison.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Well, EU leaders have made it clear they won't begin negotiations until Art.50 is triggered.
		
Click to expand...

The guy they had on 5live whilst PMQ was going on was in no doubt that background talks will be going on between the countries and will continue to do so - it's also in their best interests as well


----------



## larmen (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The guy they had on 5live whilst PMQ was going on was in no doubt that background talks will be going on between the countries and will continue to do so - it's also in their best interests as well
		
Click to expand...

Between countries so far does not involve the UK.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 27, 2016)

The best thing the UK could do now is phone up the Japanese Prime Minister and say "Look we want to buy a shed load of your cars, how about a free trade agreement between our two countries with no trade tariffs so that we can send you a big pot of money for your exports". In my opinion the Japanese will look at it and say yes. Then we phone up Angela Merkel and say "Look Angela, about your nice shiney BMWs, Audis and Porsches that you like to sell us. We've just signed an agreement with Japan for free trade and they are going to start shipping us their cars in a couple of weeks. Why don't you have a think about that and then toddle off back to the EU to sort out an agreement for us as well so you can keep selling us your cars".


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Wisdom from the past:

[video=youtube;37iHSwA1SwE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE[/video]


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The best thing the UK could do now is phone up the Japanese Prime Minister and say "Look we want to buy a shed load of your cars, how about a free trade agreement between our two countries with no trade tariffs so that we can send you a big pot of money for your exports". In my opinion the Japanese will look at it and say yes. Then we phone up Angela Merkel and say "Look Angela, about your nice shiney BMWs, Audis and Porsches that you like to sell us. We've just signed an agreement with Japan for free trade and they are going to start shipping us their cars in a couple of weeks. Why don't you have a think about that and then toddle off back to the EU to sort out an agreement for us as well so you can keep selling us your cars".
		
Click to expand...


I like it.  It's a big old world out there for us Little Englanders to trade with.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The best thing the UK could do now is phone up the Japanese Prime Minister and say "Look we want to buy a shed load of your cars, how about a free trade agreement between our two countries with no trade tariffs so that we can send you a big pot of money for your exports". In my opinion the Japanese will look at it and say yes. Then we phone up Angela Merkel and say "Look Angela, about your nice shiney BMWs, Audis and Porsches that you like to sell us. We've just signed an agreement with Japan for free trade and they are going to start shipping us their cars in a couple of weeks. Why don't you have a think about that and then toddle off back to the EU to sort out an agreement for us as well so you can keep selling us your cars".
		
Click to expand...

Do we not already build most of the Japanese makes in this country as it is ? 

Honda , Nissan , Toyota already made in the UK ( and then distributed around the UK and EU ) and already import the others


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I mentioned Hitler etc as they were examples who ignored their people and decide what they thought was best for them, just like it would be if our government decided to ignore the referendum result.  A very apt comparison.
		
Click to expand...

And on this I completely disagree!

Hitler convinced the German people that he was right - or at least enough of them to win power 'democratically'! It's only in that way that any comparison can be made. And, unfortunately for your argument, you are actually equating Hitlers rise to power with Brexit's win - though the comparison might be valid, as there were a considerable number of untruths involved by both!!

I'm certain that within a month both Sterling and the Stock Market will have settled - though at significantly lower values. Then, the long-winded negotiation process can begin, with or without invocation of Article 50 (they'll simply be called 'preliminary discussions' before the announcement) and some sort of trade agreement will be negotiated. It will, however, be a more expensive exercise for most UK companies, so will make them less competitive - as will the 'availability of cheap (EU immigrant) labour' that has been the case for the past several years!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we not already build most of the Japanese makes in this country as it is ? 

Honda , Nissan , Toyota already made in the UK ( and then distributed around the UK and EU ) and already import the others
		
Click to expand...


Only certain models.   Take a look at the Roayl Portbury Dock at Bristol to see the number of cars imported into the UK, it's massive.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we not already build most of the Japanese makes in this country as it is ? 

Honda , Nissan , Toyota already made in the UK ( and then distributed around the UK and EU ) and already import the others
		
Click to expand...

Many/most of those are likely to disappear when they next review the siting of manufacturing plants! 

I don't think Sunderland is likely to get any EU targeted plants!!


----------



## MarkE (Jun 27, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Sorry, but you've got to be incredibly ill-informed to come to that conclusion.

The economy is taking a hit because we have made a commitment to tear up our trading agreement with our biggest partners. 

Until such a time that we reach new agreements there will be uncertainty over what it means for businesses, so the downturn is not unexpected.
		
Click to expand...


I'm as ill informed as the next person. There was always going to be a dip, it's  just much worse than it needed to be because of the constant negativity from our 'leaders'. The markets will sort themselves out, no doubt with plenty of economists making millions out of the downturn, as they always do. What's needed is a new PM in place swiftly to get on with things.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Only certain models.
		
Click to expand...


Honda already invested 200m into the plant at Swindon a number of months back 

But as has already been said all the car manufacturers based in the UK trade and distribute to mainland EU - 

But that could all change with them possibly leaving the UK to be based in mainland Europe instead 

https://next.ft.com/content/1bef35ac-3c44-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0

That's a lot of jobs possibly going.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we not already build most of the Japanese makes in this country as it is ? 

Honda , Nissan , Toyota already made in the UK ( and then distributed around the UK and EU ) and already import the others
		
Click to expand...

I would imagine that the ones we currently import are done under the EU trade agreement. A direct agreement between ourselves and Japan surely wouldn't be too hard to negotiate. And as EU rules will no longer apply why not offer them some incentives to continue manufacturing here? 

And while we're at it get on to some of the New World wine producers and give them the same deal and then tell the French that we're sorted for wine so we aren't fussed if they don't want to sell us any tariff free.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would imagine that the ones we currently import are done under the EU trade agreement. A direct agreement between ourselves and Japan surely wouldn't be too hard to negotiate. And as EU rules will no longer apply why not offer them some incentives to continue manufacturing here? 

And while we're at it get on to some of the New World wine producers and give them the same deal and then tell the French that we're sorted for wine so we aren't fussed if they don't want to sell us any tariff free.
		
Click to expand...

The largest importer of wine in the UK does not buy any from the EU.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The largest importer of wine in the UK does not buy any from the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Some facts please....Who are you referring to?!

Otherwise calling B/S on this!!


----------



## Pro Zach (Jun 27, 2016)

Congratulations Iceland. Look what's possible outside the eu.:smirk:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2016)

Well good job England voted to split from Europe as our National football team will restore some pride in our nation.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 27, 2016)

Where is the plan??


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Where is the plan??
		
Click to expand...

What plan?


----------



## Val (Jun 27, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Are you really questioning this? I spoke with him this morning. He explained what happened. I believe that it happened, why would he lie, he's a perfectly trustworthy young man who is genuinely concerned about his girlfriend's experience in Scotland being a positive one, as he probably hopes she'll follow him here. It's one drunken idiot, they do exist. Surely that's not hard to believe.
		
Click to expand...

Had you said it was a drunken idiot at the start then we may not be having this dialogue.

Hopefully they see this as an isolated incident and not the norm in Scotland


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What plan?
		
Click to expand...

It's Monday they have had the weekend to sort out a plan .... Crikey o'reilly the chancellor has been sorting bits and pieces out the B of E have waved their loose change about .... Now where is the plan?


----------



## MarkE (Jun 27, 2016)

Breaking news. Apparently England are going to push for a rematch against Iceland, because they did'nt like the result.:thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			It's Monday they have had the weekend to sort out a plan .... Crikey o'reilly the chancellor has been sorting bits and pieces out the B of E have waved their loose change about .... Now where is the plan?
		
Click to expand...

Are you serious, 'a weekend'!  Have you not followed the news or are you on a wind up (probably)  If you followed the news you will have seen that the Government have to select a new PM which will take a few months, he will form a new government who will then decide when to start the exit negotiations.   The A plan is to negotiate the best deal possible, until this reaches it's conclusion we carry on as normal.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Breaking news. Apparently England are going to push for a rematch against Iceland, because they did'nt like the result.:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Most England fans didn't like the result as it was not representative of their views so they want the result reversed and are demanding a veto on iceland going through.


----------



## the smiling assassin (Jun 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Had you said it was a drunken idiot at the start then we may not be having this dialogue.

Hopefully they see this as an isolated incident and not the norm in Scotland
		
Click to expand...

The office reaction was one of horror (certainly not questioning whether it had happened) and to my knowledge, none of us expressed that the guys drunken state excused his behaviour, or justified in any way the fact the incident had occurred.

hopefully as you say this is an isolated incident.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Oliver Letwin to head up the start of plan A.
I can't see that ending well.
I wonder if he will include representatives of Scottish Government and the NI Assembly on his committee?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2016)

5th largest economy in the world and the 10th best football team in the world

As we are in such a position of power what can possibly go wrong


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			5th largest economy in the world and the 10th best football team in the world

As we are in such a position of power what can possibly go wrong 

Click to expand...

Keep up Hacker, 6th largest economy now, overtaken by France on Friday.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Keep up Hacker, 6th largest economy now, overtaken by France on Friday.
		
Click to expand...

With people like you and HK talking the Nation down what could possible go wrong.

You disgust me, you realy do make me balk.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			With people like you and HK talking the Nation down what could possible go wrong.

You disgust me, you realy do make me balk.
		
Click to expand...

Just an fyi, what Doon posted there was a fact. Not "talking the nation down".


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2016)

The couple of business types, I've seen on the box, whilst not exactly happy with the result still believe there's plenty of opportunity in exit...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			With people like you and HK talking the Nation down what could possible go wrong.

You disgust me, you realy do make me balk.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, because that's how economics works, if a bunch of sad old golfers on an internet rolls up their sleeves the markets will listen and it will all be alright.  And they will ignore the complete lack of any credible plan or lack of any leadership that now engulfs this country.  But I imagine that's all the stayers fault as well....


----------



## bobmac (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, because that's how economics works, if a bunch of sad old golfers on an internet rolls up their sleeves the markets will listen and it will all be alright.  And they will ignore the complete lack of any credible plan or lack of any leadership that now engulfs this country.  But I imagine that's all the stayers fault as well....
		
Click to expand...

How can a lack of something engulf anything?
Cheer up for goodness sake


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Gibraltar looking for an alliance with Scotland and NI to remain in EU.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 28, 2016)

bobmac said:



			How can a lack of something engulf anything?
Cheer up for goodness sake
		
Click to expand...

The lack of light at night certainly can engulf the country


----------



## ger147 (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gibraltar looking for an alliance with Scotland and NI to remain in EU.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we could start a football team...


----------



## fundy (Jun 28, 2016)

Is Farage for real. Has a pop at everyone else in the room then asks them to behave sensibly lol, that speech really wont have done us any favours


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Farage really going for it in the EU debate........insulting the entire parliament.
I don't think the negotiations will get off to a good start after that.

Chairman telling the delegates to calm down and stop shouting. 'You are behaving like UKIP normally do' he tells them.:lol:


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I mentioned Hitler etc as they were examples who ignored their people and decide what they thought was best for them, just like it would be if our government decided to ignore the referendum result.  A very apt comparison.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, no, he wasn't an example of that. He was an example of a leader who with a relatively small number of supporters duped his people by instilling nationalism, lying to the population, and blaming the country's ills on everyone else. Sound familiar?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Maybe we could start a football team...
		
Click to expand...

Yea....remember the 'we got the team, you have the fans' plea from the Viking Army to the Tartan Army.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Standing ovation and long loud applause for the plea to 'Do Not Let Scotland' down in the EU Parliament.


----------



## fundy (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Standing ovation and long loud applause for the plea to 'Do Not Let Scotland' down in the EU Parliament.
		
Click to expand...

All he was missing was his begging bowl


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

fundy said:



			All he was missing was his begging bowl
		
Click to expand...

Some support though, you cannot deny that, quite surprised and encouraged by that.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 28, 2016)

Glad to see some green shoots of recovery in the markets this morning, FTSE currently up 140pts


----------



## fundy (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Some support though, you cannot deny that, quite surprised and encouraged by that.
		
Click to expand...

perfect platform, following the hideous smugness of farage and him slagging off all and sundry, wasnt gonna be too hard to get applause in that schoolyard environment was it, especially with a pro EU speech


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Glad to see some green shoots of recovery in the markets this morning, FTSE currently up 140pts  

Click to expand...

Careful, you're being too positive. FTSE back over 6100 at present, and the Â£ stabilising against the â‚¬. Armageddon postponed till tomorrow.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful, you're being too positive. FTSE back over 6100 at present, and the Â£ stabilising against the â‚¬. Armageddon postponed till tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone know how much reserves the BoE have spent on propping up the Â£. since Friday.
Do they let us know or do they keep that info secret ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2016)

Wow what an advert for the UK Farage is - I'm embaressed to have that disgusting person talk on our behalf as a MEP. Nasty racist streak right through him - please tell me that he becomes a non entity soon


----------



## londonlewis (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow what an advert for the UK Farage is - I'm embaressed to have that disgusting person talk on our behalf as a MEP. Nasty racist streak right through him - please tell me that he becomes a non entity soon
		
Click to expand...

The only thing he was campaigning for was our exit from the EU. Unless things go sideways, he has achieved that. Surely he can now sod off from UK politics as we don't need him anymore. 

I'm not convinced he is actually racist. Although I am sure he does appeal to those that are.


----------



## ger147 (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow what an advert for the UK Farage is - I'm embaressed to have that disgusting person talk on our behalf as a MEP. Nasty racist streak right through him - please tell me that he becomes a non entity soon
		
Click to expand...

I believe the next European Parliament elections aren't due until 2019, so I reckon he'll be around for the entire period of the Brexit negotiations.


----------



## ger147 (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know how much reserves the BoE have spent on propping up the Â£. since Friday.
Do they let us know or do they keep that info secret ?
		
Click to expand...

It's not a secret as such no, but it's rarely if ever reported in the general press to Joe Public.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2016)

Mind you in the referendum stakes he is 1-0 up, Nicola is 2-0 down.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2016)

To clear up any confusion, I endorse this message. But I'm sure many don't.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-nat...um-leadership-this-what-britain-voted-1567851


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:





SocketRocket said:



			The largest importer of wine in the UK does not buy any from the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Some facts please....Who are you referring to?!

Otherwise calling B/S on this!!
		
Click to expand...

Ha! Realised who this 'importer' was as I disposed of the bottle of one of their fine products (Kumala Reserve Malbec) - that I'd actually been imbibing at the time of my original post!

The Aussie based/owned company Accolade (Headquarters South Oz), that has a *UK* 'Head Office' - and past which I often travel! So not so much an importer to UK as an exporter from Aus and its many other holdings - to UK, Europe and many other countries!

So they really only 'buy' from a single supplier - themselves!

I can see definite 'politician' potential from the comment!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow what an advert for the UK Farage is - I'm embaressed to have that disgusting person talk on our behalf as a MEP. Nasty racist streak right through him - please tell me that he becomes a non entity soon
		
Click to expand...

Remember kids, Farage is how a lot of Europeans see us now. As as much as our popular press thrives on taking at times extreme caricatures of a nations character or people and exaggerating them for comedic or sinister effect, as one of the main players in the biggest political story in ages, you can bet your bottom dollar the press in Europe is doing the same to us.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Remember kids, Farage is how a lot of Europeans see us now. As as much as our popular press thrives on taking at times extreme caricatures of a nations character or people and exaggerating them for comedic or sinister effect, as one of the main players in the biggest political story in ages, you can bet your bottom dollar the press in Europe is doing the same to us.
		
Click to expand...

It was amusing to note that Juncker and Farage have adjacent seats in the EU Parliament!


----------



## chico (Jun 28, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Mind you in the referendum stakes he is 1-0 up, Nicola is 2-0 down.
		
Click to expand...

But the next goal wins.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Remember kids, Farage is how a lot of Europeans see us now. As as much as our popular press thrives on taking at times extreme caricatures of a nations character or people and exaggerating them for comedic or sinister effect, as one of the main players in the biggest political story in ages, you can bet your bottom dollar the press in Europe is doing the same to us.
		
Click to expand...

Does Farage feature in the continental press?
Thought BoJo was the headline grabber...


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Remember kids, Farage is how a lot of Europeans see us now. As as much as our popular press thrives on taking at times extreme caricatures of a nations character or people and exaggerating them for comedic or sinister effect, as one of the main players in the biggest political story in ages, you can bet your bottom dollar the press in Europe is doing the same to us.
		
Click to expand...

Our press may well portray our European cousins a particular way, e.g. a beret wearing onion seller, but 99% of people understand its a caricature. I would expect our European friends to be equally discerning. To suggest otherwise insults their intelligence.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Our press may well portray our European cousins a particular way, e.g. a beret wearing onion seller, but 99% of people understand its a caricature. I would expect our European friends to be equally discerning. To suggest otherwise insults their intelligence.
		
Click to expand...

Come on now, don't spoil his fun, he has a cracking sense of humour and the trick is trying to guess when he's using it.  A clue though is that he always uses it in posts anyone disagrees with.


----------



## palindromicbob (Jun 28, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Glad to see some green shoots of recovery in the markets this morning, FTSE currently up 140pts  

Click to expand...

Nothing an overnight frost won't sort out .


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2016)

OMG, they are now trying to erase history!! 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html


----------



## londonlewis (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			OMG, they are now trying to erase history!! 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html

Click to expand...

There should be laws against this. 
A company couldn't get away with doing this; making claims about what their product does, then deleting its website after they have sold all products and replacing it with a 'thanks for buying this guys'. 

Beware the campaigning politician.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

For those who missed it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36649450


----------



## Fish (Jun 28, 2016)

A few days old but very well put.

[video]https://www.facebook.com/bbcbreakfast/videos/1356911747656293/[/video]


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 28, 2016)

What a complete embarrassment Farage was today.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2016)

Torys leaderless and split into four.
Labour leaderless and split in two.
Lib Dems.....more Lords members than MP's
Scotland wishing to leave the UK
UKIP..... ONE MP

Is it not about time the Queen stepped in ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			OMG, they are now trying to erase history!! 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html

Click to expand...

Thus spake George Orwell with Winston Smith


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2016)

Not being wise after the event as I did ask many times of _Leave_ 'where is your plan'.  And it came to pass that there never was one as they never expected to win.  

Loving (no I'm not - actually I am despairing rather of) the revisionism we are hearing from _Leave_ front men.  And so yesterday evening it was the turn of Daniel Hannan who tells us that if supporters of _Leave_ ever thought that a reduction in immigration numbers was being offered, then they just weren't listening.  Problem is Daniel, that even if what you say was true - when you heard _Leavers _say that that was what they were expecting - you did nothing to correct that idea - you just let them believe it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Torys leaderless and split into four.
Labour leaderless and split in two.
Lib Dems.....more Lords members than MP's
Scotland wishing to leave the UK
UKIP..... ONE MP

Is it not about time the Queen stepped in ?
		
Click to expand...

And Jimmy Krankie backtracking now she knows she has been talking BS.


----------



## IainP (Jun 28, 2016)

As this thread is still trundling along, a hypothetical question:

Second referendum, worded differently 

1, stay on the exit path 
2, join EU full on, into the Eurozone (EMU / ERM II)

How might that pan out?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

IainP said:



			As this thread is still trundling along, a hypothetical question:

Second referendum, worded differently 

1, stay on the exit path 
2, join EU full on, into the Eurozone (EMU / ERM II)

How might that pan out?
		
Click to expand...

not sure I like the Bank of England not in control - but the problem is this if we don't leave there will always be " we won the referendum, it's our democratic right" , so perhaps we should ask the EU to pretend we have left and live as a left country for a couple of years... Bit like sex change surgery!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not being wise after the event as I did ask many times of _Leave_ 'where is your plan'.  And it came to pass that there never was one as they never expected to win.  

Loving (no I'm not - actually I am despairing rather of) the revisionism we are hearing from _Leave_ front men.  And so yesterday evening it was the turn of Daniel Hannan who tells us that if supporters of _Leave_ ever thought that a reduction in immigration numbers was being offered, then they just weren't listening.  Problem is Daniel, that even if what you say was true - when you heard _Leavers _say that that was what they were expecting - you did nothing to correct that idea - you just let them believe it.
		
Click to expand...

The Plan was to get a majority vote to leave the EU.   Done.   After that it's a matter of negotiations with the EU on how we  work with them after we leave, what the hell did you expect a plan to be?   remain didn't need any plan as they held the status quo, Brexit made it quite clear they want to end the Supremely of EU Law over UK Law, they want control over immigration, they want to have the ability to set up their own free trade agreements around the World, They want us to vote in our Law makers and not have them appointed.   I could go on but you would have to be pretty stupid to not understand the requirements as they have been made clear enough.  You also must be clever enough to understand that the Brexiteers couldn't start negotiations before the referendum, if not then you should have voted Leave as we are told most voters for that are stupid and incapable of understanding the issues.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Plan was to get a majority vote to leave the EU.   Done.   After that it's a matter of negotiations with the EU on how we  work with them after we leave, what the hell did you expect a plan to be?   remain didn't need any plan as they held the status quo, Brexit made it quite clear they want to end the Supremely of EU Law over UK Law, they want control over immigration, they want to have the ability to set up their own free trade agreements around the World, They want us to vote in our Law makers and not have them appointed.   I could go on but you would have to be pretty stupid to not understand the requirements as they have been made clear enough.  You also must be clever enough to understand that the Brexiteers couldn't start negotiations before the referendum, if not then you should have voted Leave as we are told most voters for that are stupid and incapable of understanding the issues.
		
Click to expand...

So Farage's outburst today was a diplomatic master stroke of negotiation? 
Article 50 takes 2 years, negotiations require two people to talk to each other, the negotiations are loaded in the EUs favour. They could send a monkey along, no papers get signed and we are out in the cold with nothing. The brexit bunch seriously need to brown nose ....


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			So Farage's outburst today was a diplomatic master stroke of negotiation? 
Article 50 takes 2 years, negotiations require two people to talk to each other, the negotiations are loaded in the EUs favour. They could send a monkey along, no papers get signed and we are out in the cold with nothing. The brexit bunch seriously need to brown nose ....
		
Click to expand...

Even I will allow him a small amount of gloating - he's certainly been consistent in his attitude to the EU!

And no, it's not necessarily a 2 year process! That's simply  limit set for the treaty - after which exit is mandatory, with no 'deal'!

However, those who promoted Brexit are correct saying that EU sells more to UK than it buys, so there should be incentive to make a deal!

The lack of a plan was quite clear, but that didn't stop a majority voting to leave - it could have been far greater if there had been! So time to actually get stuck in and get organised - even simply as preliminary to 'official' negotiations!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Even I will allow him a small amount of gloating - he's certainly been consistent in his attitude to the EU!

And no, it's not necessarily a 2 year process! That's simply  limit set for the treaty - after which exit is mandatory, with no 'deal'!
Which is what I meant 
However, those who promoted Brexit are correct saying that EU sells more to UK than it buys, so there should be incentive to make a deal!
The car makers feel that way 
The lack of a plan was quite clear, but that didn't stop a majority voting to leave - it could have been far greater if there had been! So time to actually get stuck in and get organised - even simply as preliminary to 'official' negotiations!
		
Click to expand...

The EU negotiations have to be official so I would start with non EU deals and get a few of those in my back pocket


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			So Farage's outburst today was a diplomatic master stroke of negotiation? 
Article 50 takes 2 years, negotiations require two people to talk to each other, the negotiations are loaded in the EUs favour. They could send a monkey along, no papers get signed and we are out in the cold with nothing. The brexit bunch seriously need to brown nose ....
		
Click to expand...

Thats a rather silly way to consider the situation.  The major EU countries will want to retain trade with the UK at the best possible costs, they will listen very closely to the like of the European Motor and Machine Tool manufacturers.  Sending monkeys along is not going to happen.   In the worse case scenario we reach no trade agreement and the EU apply WTO Tariffs of around 4%, the  fall in the GBP will have probably negated the effect that will have anyway. Not forgetting we trade at a very sizeable deficit with the EU, who's going to lose out there.   I know the vote didn't go your way but try some rather less sour grapes and you will feel a lot better.

Regarding Farage, do you honestly believe they will lose sleep over what he said, he has been insulting them for years.  I guess you also missed the bit where Junker was rubbishing him, guess that's different though as you probably like Junker.

[video=youtube;X3giaMmUMEo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3giaMmUMEo[/video]


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a rather silly way to consider the situation.  The major EU countries will want to retain trade with the UK at the best possible costs, they will listen very closely to the like of the European Motor and Machine Tool manufacturers.  Sending monkeys along is not going to happen.   In the worse case scenario we reach no trade agreement and the EU apply WTO Tariffs of around 4%, the  fall in the GBP will have probably negated the effect that will have anyway. Not forgetting we trade at a very sizeable deficit with the EU, who's going to lose out there.   I know the vote didn't go your way but try some rather less sour grapes and you will feel a lot better.

Regarding Farage, do you honestly believe they will lose sleep over what he said, he has been insulting them for years.  I guess you also missed the bit where Junker was rubbishing him, guess that's different though as you probably like Junker.

[video=youtube;X3giaMmUMEo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3giaMmUMEo[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Welcome to planet socket rocket .... Beneficiary of care in the community. He imagines it and it happens ....


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Welcome to planet socket rocket .... Beneficiary of care in the community. He imagines it and it happens ....
		
Click to expand...

Just as I suspected.  You dont have a case to support your bleatings so revert to the same old balderdash   If you cant hold down a discussion to support your accusations it's probably best not to make them.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful, you're being too positive. FTSE back over 6100 at present, and the Â£ stabilising against the â‚¬. Armageddon postponed till tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

Dead cat bounce, we're still all doomed!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Just as I suspected.  You dont have a case to support your bleatings so revert to the same old balderdash   If you cant hold down a discussion to support your accusations it's probably best not to make them.
		
Click to expand...

I might have a spare cardboard box for you when the time comes... But you'll have to find your own trolley and bridge


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Dead cat bounce, we're still all doomed!
		
Click to expand...

Where did the Bank of England get 250billion? Who is going to pay for it?


----------



## hovis (Jun 28, 2016)

People talking about nigel farage's outburst and how it was stupid!   Did these people watch the entire conference?   If they did they would have seen all the stick he was getting prior to his outburst


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2016)

hovis said:



			People talking about nigel farage's outburst and how it was stupid!   Did these people watch the entire conference?   If they did they would have seen all the stick he was getting prior to his outburst
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the media only wanted to show the bit on our nut job failing to show the other nut jobs in the asylum


----------



## vkurup (Jun 28, 2016)

A great own goal by Hull which voted Leave and now Siemens is leaving (or rather holding back). One of UK's most deprived areas gets a bit more deprived.. Bad for the economy, bad for the environment, bad for young ones.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...k-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a rather silly way to consider the situation.  The major EU countries will want to retain trade with the UK at the best possible costs, they will listen very closely to the like of the European Motor and Machine Tool manufacturers.  Sending monkeys along is not going to happen.   In the worse case scenario we reach no trade agreement and the EU apply WTO Tariffs of around 4%, the  fall in the GBP will have probably negated the effect that will have anyway. Not forgetting we trade at a very sizeable deficit with the EU, who's going to lose out there.   I know the vote didn't go your way but try some rather less sour grapes and you will feel a lot better.

Regarding Farage, do you honestly believe they will lose sleep over what he said, he has been insulting them for years.  I guess you also missed the bit where Junker was rubbishing him, guess that's different though as you probably like Junker.

[video=youtube;X3giaMmUMEo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3giaMmUMEo[/video]
		
Click to expand...

You're making a lot of assumptions that trade deals with EU and Non EU countries will be in our favour 

There is no way you or anyone knows exactly what deals will be done

The EU countries have just seen a vote to remove the UK from the EU which could well put a number of countries under strain - do you really think they would do any deal that would favour the UK ? Also all these assumptions that we suddenly start trading around the world - again do we think that will be in our favour when they know we need to have trade deals ?  so overall we could end up spending a damn sight more than we ever did in the EU but missing all those EU grants that the whole nation took advantage of. Other countries could pray on our desperation 

And all this EU and UK law - I'm sorry but I firmly believe that it's nonsense that we don't control our own laws 

Would it bother you if it went horribly wrong for the Nation ? Would it matter that if in 5/10 years time the vote to leave was shown to be completely the wrong choice and that choice has negatively affect your families lives ? Or would it not matter because we controlled our own mess ?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2016)

vkurup said:



			A great own goal by Hull which voted Leave and now Siemens is leaving (or rather holding back). One of UK's most deprived areas gets a bit more deprived.. Bad for the economy, bad for the environment, bad for young ones.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...k-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote

Click to expand...

Cannot see any mention of leaving and I notice the 1000 workforce according to the piece will not be affected.

Post is a bit puzzling.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no way you or anyone knows exactly what deals will be done
		
Click to expand...

Apart from you who is "pretty sure that they won't be in our favour".


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You're making a lot of assumptions that trade deals with EU and Non EU countries will be in our favour 

There is no way you or anyone knows exactly what deals will be done

The EU countries have just seen a vote to remove the UK from the EU which could well put a number of countries under strain - do you really think they would do any deal that would favour the UK ? Also all these assumptions that we suddenly start trading around the world - again do we think that will be in our favour when they know we need to have trade deals ?  so overall we could end up spending a damn sight more than we ever did in the EU but missing all those EU grants that the whole nation took advantage of. Other countries could pray on our desperation 

And all this EU and UK law - I'm sorry but I firmly believe that it's nonsense that we don't control our own laws 

Would it bother you if it went horribly wrong for the Nation ? Would it matter that if in 5/10 years time the vote to leave was shown to be completely the wrong choice and that choice has negatively affect your families lives ? Or would it not matter because we controlled our own mess ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should reread my post as you don,t seem to have taken in what I said, read the bit about worse case scenarios and trade tariffs. Also consider the bit regarding our trade defect and what trade barriers would do to the larger countries in the EU.

We already trade around the world, as a matter of fact most of our trade is outside the EU and most countries in the world are not in the EU and they manage.

Regarding our Laws, you need to read up and educate yourself, EU law overrides UK law and takes priority.   I would prefer that to stop thank you.

You cannot say what effect staying in the EU will have on the future of families, your comments are one track and dont balance up the threats from the almost certain collapse of the Euro and the EU.   Most countries in the EU are basket case economies with massive unemployment, if you want us to adopt that as a model then good luck with your families future.

Just accept your wish for us to remain in the EU lost by a democratic process so 'Stay Calm and Carry On'


----------



## One Planer (Jun 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You're making a lot of assumptions that trade deals with EU and Non EU countries will be in our favour 

There is no way you or anyone knows exactly what deals will be done

The EU countries have just seen a vote to remove the UK from the EU which could well put a number of countries under strain - do you really think they would do any deal that would favour the UK ? Also all these assumptions that we suddenly start trading around the world - I'm pretty sure again that won't be in our favour - so overall we could end up spending a damn sight more than we ever did in the EU but missing all those EU grants that the whole nation took advantage of. 

And all this EU and UK law - I'm sorry but I firmly believe that it's nonsense that we don't control our own laws 

Would it bother you if it went horribly wrong for the Nation ? Would it matter that if in 5/10 years time the vote to leave was shown to be completely the wrong choice and that choice has negatively affect your families lives ? Or would it not matter because we controlled our own mess ?
		
Click to expand...

Trade is a two way steet Phil.

We have a massive trade defect in Europe. A market we are, or were, paying to trade in. In other words, we buy more from them than they do from us. So who is really losing out?

Would nations of the Europe want to lose that and create more uncertainty in the common market? Counties like Italy, Spain, Greece and a few others who's economies aren't in fantastic shape would suffer further. 

How would the reduction of exported VW, Audi,  BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, CitroÃ«n,  Renault, Peugeot, Ferrari, Lamborghini effect French, German and Italian manufacturing markets? 

It would hit them hard as they sell quite a few units to the UK per annum. 

Why would they potentially price themselves out of a lucrative market leaving the door open for America, Japan and India to win market share as there would be no additional levy on their trade.

We have a trade surplus with counties outside Europe. Surely it's possible to grow these avenues and diversify into emerging markets in India and Asia.

I said from the outset I'm firmly neutral on the subject,  but Europe looking to cash in our punish an independent UK doesn't make sense purely out of self interest for their own markets and economies.

People are also forgetting the the UK contributed significantly to the European pot. That contribution will no longer be there. Throw into the mix the potential loss of trade it could be crippling to the entire EU market. 

Flip the coin.  What do Europe gain from pricing up our exports? Nothing because they don't buy that much from us anyway!

As for laws,  we've become so intertwined is hard to see the wood for the trees. We've grown together over the years which making spearing the "Us and Them" tricky at best.

Suffice to say there is good and bad whichever way you look.  The one positive outcome I can think to its that our supreme court will have final say in legal matters and not Brussels.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I might have a spare cardboard box for you when the time comes... But you'll have to find your own trolley and bridge
		
Click to expand...

Not me mate, I'm sorted and all due to hard work, keeping my nose to the grindstone and not thinking I am someone else's problem.    Now you may be a completely different story 

Oh!  Regarding the trolley, I could probably find one for you as you seem to have come off yours.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Dead cat bounce, we're still all doomed!
		
Click to expand...

PMSL... I could have sworn I saw its tail swish!!~


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The Plan was to get a majority vote to leave the EU.   Done.   After that it's a matter of negotiations with the EU on how we  work with them after we leave, what the hell did you expect a plan to be?   remain didn't need any plan as they held the status quo, Brexit made it quite clear they want to end the Supremely of EU Law over UK Law, they want control over immigration, they want to have the ability to set up their own free trade agreements around the World, They want us to vote in our Law makers and not have them appointed.   I could go on but you would have to be pretty stupid to not understand the requirements as they have been made clear enough.  You also must be clever enough to understand that the Brexiteers couldn't start negotiations before the referendum, if not then you should have voted Leave as we are told most voters for that are stupid and incapable of understanding the issues.
		
Click to expand...

OK - so all the commentators and politicians asking Bojo, Give and Farage - _where's the plan?_  are wrong.  We now don't even know quite what their objectives are as they are gradually and not insignificantly changing.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Where did the Bank of England get *250billion*? Who is going to pay for it?
		
Click to expand...

14yrs worth of Â£350m a week


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so all the commentators and politicians asking Bojo, Give and Farage - _where's the plan?_  are wrong.  We now don't even know quite what their objectives are as they are gradually and not insignificantly changing.
		
Click to expand...

  Did you read my post, I dont know how to put it any simpler to you.   As I said, there are a number of outline principles that are desired, the outcomes of the exit talks with the EU will see what we can achieve in Europe.  Others will be under our own control but as you know there will be at least a two year time frame for this to happen.

All the commentators and politicians are not saying what you suggest, only the ones you want to listen to.  Panic if you will, this Socket is not for panicking.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 28, 2016)

fundy said:



			Is Farage for real. Has a pop at everyone else in the room then asks them to behave sensibly lol, that speech really wont have done us any favours
		
Click to expand...

Love or hate him Farage is a brilliant public speaker and I'd rather have him in our corner speaking up for Britain than not.

You're right though its not the way to win friends and I don't like to see personal insults thrown around there's no need for any of that.

 It must be a lonely place speaking up for Britain when most in the room are dead against what you are saying. Maybe if Cameron was a bit more "in your face" then who knows he may have gotten more joy out of the EU than he did and we would still be in the EU now but on much better terms.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

sawtooth said:



*Love or hate him Farage is a brilliant public speaker and I'd rather have him in our corner speaking up for Britain than not.*

You're right though its not the way to win friends and I don't like to see personal insults thrown around there's no need for any of that.

 It must be a lonely place speaking up for Britain when most in the room are dead against what you are saying. Maybe if Cameron was a bit more "in your face" then who knows he may have gotten more joy out of the EU than he did and we would still be in the EU now but on much better terms.
		
Click to expand...

To quote Chris Addison on Twitter, is as statesmanlike as a drunk Rotary Club chairman on a men only dinner. Here's an alternative view. 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...el-farage-european-parliament-petty-rant-ukip


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			To quote Chris Addison on Twitter, is as statesmanlike as a drunk Rotary Club chairman on a men only dinner. Here's an alternative view. 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...el-farage-european-parliament-petty-rant-ukip

Click to expand...


"Politics of erectile dysfunction" - brilliant.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

Some people may find this very funny, usual suspects won't.  But worth it just to hear David Tennant reading out some of the tweets sent to Trump regarding his Brexit comments at around 5:24.  But warning, warning, some rude words in this video, not safe for blaring out at work or in front of any impressionable people.

[video=youtube_share;0nTrs-HuuUc]https://youtu.be/0nTrs-HuuUc[/video]


----------



## Spear-Chucker (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Some people may find this very funny, usual suspects won't.  But worth it just to hear David Tennant reading out some of the tweets sent to Trump regarding his Brexit comments at around 5:24.  But warning, warning, some rude words in this video, not safe for blaring out at work or in front of any impressionable people.

[video=youtube_share;0nTrs-HuuUc]https://youtu.be/0nTrs-HuuUc[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Marvellous, thanks HK


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2016)

Nearly every Scottish newspaper headlines Juncker refusing to meet Sturgeon. [disaster/crisis etc etc usual SNP bad stuff]

Yesterday Juncker had a full diary and could not fit in the first Minister.

Today Junker arranges meeting with Nicola at 5.pm. She is also meeting with Schulz and Verhofstadt
Is it the Nigel effect.
I am starting to warm to Mr Juncker.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			No we won't.* With the devaluation of the currency back to 1985 levels* and the worst drop in FTSE in ages we have lost more money in total than we have ever put into the EU cumulatively. 

We now have far less to spend, and if we fall into recession unemployment rises,  then tax revenues fall whilst welfare expenditure rises, leading to more cuts.
		
Click to expand...

LOL. Scaremongering at it's highest level. do you know what it was two weeks ago? No you don't....BUT I DO. i'm going to the USA in September and am watching the value like a hawk. TWO WEEKS AGO IT WAS WHERE IT IS NOW !!!!!!!!!!!

LOL. Remain???? You've been lie lie and more lies. All the top end polititans have had to resign because they didn't listen to the people. I hope Jeza holds on. He really didn't want to Remain but was made to say so by his party. How many labour voters voted out????? MILLIONS. Just how in touch with their vote are they????? At least the Tories didn't dictate to their members what to vote for. Corbin was voted in by the members...the man/woman in the street by as huge majority. He will get in again. He maybe the solution????? I can't believe I've said that.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

How many other countries would dare to have their own in/out referendum now? The Germans would vote dumpy out immediately. They could then shake off their attempted humility and crack on with being German.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

We now need a very big man or woman  (Nicky Morgan? as long as she drops this give the vote to 16 yo) to step up.


----------



## JakeWS (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			LOL. Scaremongering at it's highest level. do you know what it was two weeks ago? No you don't....BUT I DO. i'm going to the USA in September and am watching the value like a hawk. TWO WEEKS AGO IT WAS WHERE IT IS NOW !!!!!!!!!!!

LOL. Remain???? You've been lie lie and more lies. All the top end polititans have had to resign because they didn't listen to the people. I hope Jeza holds on. He really didn't want to Remain but was made to say so by his party. How many labour voters voted out????? MILLIONS. Just how in touch with their vote are they????? At least the Tories didn't dictate to their members what to vote for. Corbin was voted in by the members...the man/woman in the street by as huge majority. He will get in again. He maybe the solution????? I can't believe I've said that. 

Click to expand...

I am also going to the USA in September and changed my money about a month ago and have been watching the rate since and can tell you with no degree of uncertainty that the dollar was not the same two weeks ago as it is now. It is about 10% worse off. I voted out and believe we are better out, but to claim that is frankly ridiculous.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			We now need a very big man or woman  (Nicky Morgan? as long as she drops this give the vote to 16 yo) to step up.
		
Click to expand...

And the reason why 16 years olds who have a massive stake in the future of the country shouldn't be allowed to vote is...........

And fair warning, if you stereotype them all as feckless hoodie wearing slackers I will stereotype all people over 65 as racist right wing UKIPers.


----------



## Rooter (Jun 29, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			I am also going to the USA in September and changed my money about a month ago and have been watching the rate since and can tell you with no degree of uncertainty that the dollar was not the same two weeks ago as it is now. It is about 10% worse off. I voted out and believe we are better out, but to claim that is frankly ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

yeh i watch the dollar rate daily due to work. a week ago it was circa 1.48, this morning it has recovered to 1.34 (went as low as 1.31)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the reason why 16 years olds who have a massive stake in the future of the country shouldn't be allowed to vote is...........
		
Click to expand...

because...erm...they wouldn't know what they were voting for...no wait...


----------



## Val (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nearly every Scottish newspaper headlines Juncker refusing to meet Sturgeon. [disaster/crisis etc etc usual SNP bad stuff]

Yesterday Juncker had a full diary and could not fit in the first Minister.

Today Junker arranges meeting with Nicola at 5.pm. She is also meeting with Schulz and Verhofstadt
Is it the Nigel effect.
I am starting to warm to Mr Juncker.
		
Click to expand...

And she'll no doubt come back with her tail between her legs after being told to Foxtrot Oscar.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			We now need a very big man or woman  (Nicky Morgan? as long as she drops this give the vote to 16 yo) to step up.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/young-vote


----------



## User62651 (Jun 29, 2016)

Val said:



			And she'll no doubt come back with her tail between her legs after being told to Foxtrot Oscar.
		
Click to expand...

No, any negative will be spun to be positive, SNP are good at that. As for Junker he will big her up to slight the UK govt and use as a sign to other member states that leaving is bad. Neither party would go into the meeting unless there was something to be gained for both    imo.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rm-feelings-for-george-osborne-20160629109943

Usual rude word warning.


----------



## JakeWS (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/young-vote

Click to expand...

Everyone is banging on about the 73% of young people voting remain, however they also fail to mention the 36% turnout. It's hardly the majority of young people who are being victimised like they make out. Being 21, I see the young moaners first hand, and they seem to me to be following the remain trend as it is "Cool" at the minute.


----------



## drdel (Jun 29, 2016)

The comments on this thread continue to approach the lowest common denominator of insults and circular content by the same culprits.

I suggest anyone who has posted more than 30 posts should be banned from posting for a 5 day cooling off period.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			Everyone is banging on about the 73% of young people voting remain, however they also fail to mention the 36% turnout. It's hardly the majority of young people who are being victimised like they make out. Being 21, I see the young moaners first hand, and they seem to me to be following the remain trend as it is "Cool" at the minute.
		
Click to expand...

The 'Town and Country Monthly' reports 90% of Vegetarian Bikers against Fracking voted remain but they aren't making a fuss, there are 300 of them as well.  In saying that I haven't looked on their facebook page.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

drdel said:



			The comments on this thread continue to approach the lowest common denominator of insults and circular content by the same culprits.

I suggest anyone who has posted more than 30 posts should be banned from posting for a 5 day cooling off period.
		
Click to expand...


Codpiece Face


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			Everyone is banging on about the 73% of young people voting remain, however they also fail to mention the 36% turnout. It's hardly the majority of young people who are being victimised like they make out. Being 21, I see the young moaners first hand, and they seem to me to be following the remain trend as it is "Cool" at the minute.
		
Click to expand...

But is preventing many young people from having the opportunity to vote going to engage them further in the future?  This is a political issue many young people are vaguely interested in. It is not a case of righting some wrong as some are feeling victimised, as what is done is done, But at least ask the questions if they should vote in the future to possibly get them more engaged in the political process. 

And as for 36% being used as a low figure, the current government who is (allegedly) running the UK was voted in by 24.3% of all registered voters.  And only 10.6% of registered voters in Scotland voted for them. Which makes 36% seem not too bad after all.


----------



## JakeWS (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But is preventing many young people from having the opportunity to vote going to engage them further in the future?  This is a political issue many young people are vaguely interested in. It is not a case of righting some wrong as some are feeling victimised, as what is done is done, But at least ask the questions if they should vote in the future to possibly get them more engaged in the political process. 

And as for 36% being used as a low figure, the current government who is (allegedly) running the UK was voted in by 24.3% of all registered voters.  And only 10.6% of registered voters in Scotland voted for them. Which makes 36% seem not too bad after all.
		
Click to expand...

But how many 16-18 year olds do you think actually want to vote? If they aren't voting at 18-25 they wont be voting at 16-18 either.

24.3% of registered voters, but 36% of the actual turnout, so a similar number, as I don't think the people who choose to not turn up on voting day should be allowed to complain that the party in charge is not one they like. And I can't really think of a better way to elect a Government, however I am by no means an expert.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

https://youtu.be/-a6HNXtdvVQ 

Usual T&C, rude words in mickey take of the leave campaign and Boris. This ones the old Hitlers Bunker one you may have seen before in several different guises.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			But how many 16-18 year olds do you think actually want to vote? If they aren't voting at 18-25 they wont be voting at 16-18 either.

24.3% of registered voters, but 36% of the actual turnout, so a similar number, as I don't think the people who choose to not turn up on voting day should be allowed to complain that the party in charge is not one they like. And I can't really think of a better way to elect a Government, however I am by no means an expert.
		
Click to expand...

We may be at cross purposes here.  My point is that we should at least ask the question if 16 year old should be given the vote as a way of getting them involved in the democratic process. If they chose not to engage then fair enough, their loss, but at least give them the chance.


----------



## JakeWS (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			We may be at cross purposes here.  My point is that we should at least ask the question if 16 year old should be given the vote as a way of getting them involved in the democratic process. If they chose not to engage then fair enough, their loss, but at least give them the chance.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but I believe they should be made to prove they have a basic understanding of what they are voting for. But then actually I believe everyone who votes should have to prove a basic understanding.


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the reason why 16 years olds who have a massive stake in the future of the country shouldn't be allowed to vote is...........

And fair warning, if you stereotype them all as feckless hoodie wearing slackers I will stereotype all people over 65 as racist right wing UKIPers.
		
Click to expand...

I honestly think that the majority of them are not mature enough or have the experience to fully understand what they would be voting for.  Hells teeth some adults aren't either.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I honestly think that the majority of them are not mature enough or have the experience to* fully understand what they would be voting for*.  *Hells teeth some adults aren't either*.
		
Click to expand...

As I would argue the recent referendum proved.  But other opinions are available.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And as for 36% being used as a low figure, the current government who is (allegedly) running the UK was voted in by 24.3% of all registered voters.  And only 10.6% of registered voters in Scotland voted for them. Which makes 36% seem not too bad after all.
		
Click to expand...

Which all goes to show that the 51.9% (of a relatively large turnout) voting to leave was absolutely massive.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I honestly think that the majority of them are not mature enough or have the experience to fully understand what they would be voting for.  *Hells teeth some adults aren't either*.
		
Click to expand...

So why do 18+ get the automatic right to vote but not 16-17?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Which all goes to show that the 51.9% (of a relatively large turnout) voting to leave was absolutely massive.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. It is a majority by just under 2%, that isn't "massive". I'm not going to argue it's a majority, but it's certainly not large.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 29, 2016)

I am tired of the stuff that is mud slinging from both end. Leave did not get the economic consequence (or puts a brave face on it).  Remain is sore but cant do anything about.  The last few days we have been trying to see options and impacts for us and clients and how we keep jobs going etc.  The reality is that it will lead to uncertainty which no one likes.  You will see plans being put on hold (Siemens in Hull), jobs moving (HSBC) and others. Cameron played a great hand by not invoking Article 50.  Whoever gets the crown will either be responsible for either breaking up the country and more economic misery or risk alienating the 50% who voted Leave.  No wonder Boris was a deflated D-bag in his victory speech.  

Anyways, a week on from the vote, the emerging view of the potential scenario (IMO) is that 
1) UK will exit but will  want to get access to free markets.  The WTO option is not what the UK wants as it will not help the country
2) EU will like to make an example of it but cant afford UK to leave. So in exchange of free access to markets will ask for free movement of labour
3) The compromise position will be that UK gets access to EU market and EU will get free labour movement for _existing or original_ EU countries. 

So Brexiters can claim victory that stopped the Turkey influx (which was unlikely) and got access to markets. However, in reality not much changes on the immigration front, we still have to abide by EU regulations as we need to trade with them. It will reduce our contribution to the EU fund from Â£350m(??) per week *BUT* we lose all our opportunities to veto or control anything within the EU like we can do today.

Before everyone throws knives at me, I am not saying this is an official position but looks like the most likely scenario and it WILL be painful to get there. My friend knows this week if she has a job - she voted leave and works for a small family owned importing firm and they cant afford the drop in GBP. But as one of the Brexiter told me, I asked her grow a couple and move on, the mortgage will sort itself.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I disagree. It is a majority by just under 2%, that isn't "massive". I'm not going to argue it's a majority, but it's certainly not large.
		
Click to expand...

I was just comparing the figure against what is usually required to win a general election. Oh and just to be pedantic it was a 3.8% victory, not under 2%.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was just comparing the figure against what is usually required to win a general election. Oh and just to be pedantic it was a 3.8% victory, not under 2%.
		
Click to expand...

But you can't compare it to a general election, it's completely different. This is just a case of getting over half of the votes. 

And while I agree with you about the 3.8%, you can also say it's only 1.9% over 50%, depending on how you look at it.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

I see Spain are the first to register their disquiet over the eu talking to Sturgeon, over fears of encouraging similar breakaway negotiations from other countries, like their own Catalan region. It's a total non starter for Scotland.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I see Spain are the first to register their disquiet over the eu talking to Sturgeon, over fears of encouraging similar breakaway negotiations from other countries, like their own Catalan region. It's a total non starter for Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

It might not fly but it's certainly not a non-starter or the meetings wouldn't be taking place. I have no doubt that in a few years Scotland will be in the Eu whether England is or not.


----------



## Region3 (Jun 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I am tired of the stuff that is mud slinging from both end.


Whoever gets the crown will either be *responsible for either breaking up the country and more economic misery* or risk alienating the 50% who voted Leave.  


we lose all our opportunities to veto or control anything within the EU like we can do today.
		
Click to expand...

I must admit I don't watch the news all the time, but from what I've seen of it and on here, all the mud slinging is one way traffic (unless you mean the racist incidents which are totally unacceptable).


If a leave result was guaranteed to break up the country up and more importantly lead to economic misery, they wouldn't have won. People are stupid, but the general public 'en masse' isn't.


We won't need to veto anything the EU does because they won't have any power to impose their beurocratic nonsense on us.





Yes, it might turn out to be a terrible decision to leave, but it also might be the making of us. I'm excited rather than terrified of what the future holds.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So why do 18+ get the automatic right to vote but not 16-17?
		
Click to expand...


Voting for 18 year olds, in the scheme of things, is relatively new...

I remember attending the debate [as part of my history course] and Jeremy Thorpe spoke so well in favour I almost turned into a Liberal...

If my memory, of said course, serves me well...
Up until the end of WW1 you needed to be a landowner to vote...
And, if you owned two homes you got to vote twice...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Region3 said:



			We won't need to veto anything the EU does because they won't have any power to impose their beurocratic nonsense on us.
		
Click to expand...

Much of my work is driven by legislative and regulatory change. We've implemented lots of stuff for eu regulations and there is a load of other stuff in the pipeline. It's so early (and the country is leaderless)  that nobody knows what the future holds but the current assumption is that we will still need to support the upcoming changes but also any Eu regulatory change in the future if we want to continue trading with them.

Ok that's just one company's early working assumption (and we are steadfastly apolitical wrt the referendum) but it does make one wonder what the point of leaving is.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It might not fly but it's certainly not a non-starter or the meetings wouldn't be taking place. I have no doubt that in a few years Scotland will be in the Eu whether England is or not.
		
Click to expand...

You may well be right, time will tell. But going about it this way is the non starter. Scotland has never been a member of the eu, (neither has NI, wales or England) so talk of remaining makes no sense.
The only way for Scotland to be in the eu is to wait for the UK to exit, hold a referendum, then apply to join as a new independant country.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You may well be right, time will tell. But going about it this way is the non starter. Scotland has never been a member of the eu, (neither has NI, wales or England) so talk of remaining makes no sense.
The only way for Scotland to be in the eu is to wait for the UK to exit, hold a referendum, then apply to join as a new independant country.
		
Click to expand...

That's your opinion, which may prove correct, but I disagree. Scotland and the eu have started talking about the mechanism by which Scotland remains a member post-brexit and if they get a deal Scottish independence is a certainty. Quite possibly before rUK completes the brexit.

I write this as an avowed SNP hater and "no" voter.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's your opinion, which may prove correct, but I disagree. Scotland and the eu have started talking about the mechanism by which Scotland remains a member post-brexit and if they get a deal Scottish independence is a certainty. Quite possibly before rUK completes the brexit.

I write this as an avowed SNP hater and "no" voter.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly. But Scotland would still have the problem of all member states agreeing to a deal and as mentioned earlier, Spain would block anything that encourages the breakup of those member states.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Possibly. But Scotland would still have the problem of all member states agreeing to a deal and as mentioned earlier, Spain would block anything that encourages the breakup of those member states.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe but the breakup of the U.K. is now inevitable.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Maybe but the breakup of the U.K. is now inevitable.
		
Click to expand...

And it's very sad to even think that - then N Ireland will follow leaving Wales and England together but no doubt they will split leaving England on their own - I'm sure that will please some but not all. Might as well lose the "United" part because we certainly aren't at the moment


----------



## vkurup (Jun 29, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I must admit I don't watch the news all the time, but from what I've seen of it and on here, all the mud slinging is one way traffic (unless you mean the racist incidents which are totally unacceptable).
*If a leave result was guaranteed to break up the country up and more importantly lead to economic misery, they wouldn't have won. People are stupid, but the general public 'en masse' isn't.
*We won't need to veto anything the EU does because they won't have any power to impose their beurocratic nonsense on us.
Yes, it might turn out to be a terrible decision to leave, but it also might be the making of us. I'm excited rather than terrified of what the future holds.
		
Click to expand...

The brilliant post from a Guardian commentator.. in case folks havent read it..  

====
_
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

*How?*

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

_


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It might not fly but it's certainly not a non-starter or the meetings wouldn't be taking place. I have no doubt that in a few years Scotland will be in the Eu whether England is or not.
		
Click to expand...

Please for the love of God tell me why Scotland are happy to accept rules made by Brussels but not London? Anyone think it is money? Well there you go then. that's why England voted out, BECAUSE WE DON'T GET ANY and have been left out of all the hand outs by the EU. So we have said NO MORE !!! Trade with the EU? I wouldn't buy a thing from them again. I'd source from the rest of the world. PS you can shove your German / French / Italian (all rubbish) cars. Japan has showed us how to make them and we're pretty damn good at it now.  We can grow all our food too. We've plenty of land.


----------



## Region3 (Jun 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The brilliant post from a Guardian commentator.. in case folks havent read it..  

====
_
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

*How?*

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

_

Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding childish...

LOL


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 29, 2016)

Here is a thought (which has likely already been discussed and shot down)

Do any of the leave voters object to our current taxation system? In it, the wealthy (also known as those that are doing well), pay quite a lot into the system (HMRC), that they don't get mucch say over. 

In return the people of the country who aren't doing so well get benefits from the government, that (to an extent) they can do what they want with.

As a country, we've alreaddy said we do pretty well, much better than some others. So why do we object to contributing a bit (and lets be honest in the grand scheme of things it's tiny), it return for intangible benefits such a trading power, trade agreements, funding, etce etc. Of course the countries that aren't doing well don't contribute, neither do the lowest earners in the UK, we wouldn't expect them to!!

(Warning, overly simplistic)


----------



## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2016)

fundy said:



			All he was missing was his begging bowl
		
Click to expand...

LOL


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But is preventing many young people from having the opportunity to vote going to engage them further in the future?  This is a political issue many young people are vaguely interested in. It is not a case of righting some wrong as some are feeling victimised, as what is done is done, But at least ask the questions if they should vote in the future to possibly get them more engaged in the political process. 

And as for 36% being used as a low figure, the current government who is (allegedly) running the UK was voted in by 24.3% of all registered voters.  And only 10.6% of registered voters in Scotland voted for them. Which makes 36% seem not too bad after all.
		
Click to expand...

...and Scotland wanted 16 and 17yrs olds to have a vote - as they did for the future of their country in the Indyref.  OK - limit voting to 18 and over for GEs as 16 and 17yr olds can vote out the incumbents next timre around when they will be 21/22.  But for decisions that cannot (theoretically) be reversed such as the future of the country - then a 16 or 17 yr will have a strong personal interest and stake in the result - and will know just as much as the rest of us - and will vote just as logically as the rest of us,


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Please for the love of God tell me why Scotland are happy to accept rules made by Brussels but not London? Anyone think it is money? Well there you go then. that's why England voted out, BECAUSE WE DON'T GET ANY and have been left out of all the hand outs by the EU. So we have said NO MORE !!! Trade with the EU? I wouldn't buy a thing from them again. I'd source from the rest of the world. PS you can shove your German / French / Italian (all rubbish) cars. Japan has showed us how to make them and we're pretty damn good at it now.  We can grow all our food too. We've plenty of land.
		
Click to expand...

Umm England does get EU money 

Why on earth would you cut yourself off from the biggest single trade market in the world - thousands of businesses around the UK rely on that trade from the EU 

And you need more than land to grow food. 

And those Japanese car factories you are taking about - guess where they export most of the cars too - that's right - the EU. If we don't trade cars with the EU then those manufacturers will just up and leave to the EU

You can't cut your nose off to spite your face - that's just suicide for the future


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Much of my work is driven by legislative and regulatory change. We've implemented lots of stuff for eu regulations and there is a load of other stuff in the pipeline. It's so early (and the country is leaderless)  that nobody knows what the future holds *but the current assumption is that we will still need to support the upcoming changes but also any Eu regulatory change in the future *if we want to continue trading with them.

Ok that's just one company's early working assumption (and we are steadfastly apolitical wrt the referendum) but it does make one wonder what the point of leaving is.
		
Click to expand...

Without being able to influence or shape them in any way towards any UK specific circumstances - we will have to adopt what we are told to adopt if we want to continue trading with them


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The brilliant post from a Guardian commentator.. in case folks havent read it..  

====
_
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

*How?*

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

_

Click to expand...

I'm shaking in my boots. A guardian Lovey has made an editorial decrying the Leave vote, it's got to be Brexit Armageddon then.   Shall I dig our a Daily Mail or Guardian Editorial that completely disagrees with that one .

The Referendum is only advisory, ya de da de da,  that cookie is well and truly crumbled and swept under the carpet.   Keep kidding yourself and grasping for straws, the UK will leave the EU now and that is one certainty you can bet your shirt on.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 29, 2016)

Region3 said:



			At the risk of sounding childish...

LOL
		
Click to expand...

Not sure which side you're on and if you mean LOL at Boris' predicament or LOL this whole Guardian piece is nonsense but the part about Cameron passing the article 50 buck is definitely true, no-one foresaw Cameron resigning immediately, clear Boris and co have no plan for Brexit as they didn't believe it would happen. By making next PM sign off article 50 Cameron has outmanouvred Johnson even in referendum defeat and it will be really interesting to see how Johnson tries to work his way round all this. Chancellor Osborne is playing the long game, only mid 40s and knows he's best out of this mess for 5 years before he tries for PM, wise decision from him not to run for PM yesterday.


----------



## MarkE (Jun 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Maybe but the breakup of the U.K. is now inevitable.
		
Click to expand...

All depends on Scotland. I hope it never happens. Have to see how it all pans out. Could take many years for Scotland to be in a position to join the eu. You know how fickle voters are and there could well be a change in opinion of the Scottish electorate in the mean time.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Without being able to influence or shape them in any way towards any UK specific circumstances - we will have to adopt what we are told to adopt if we want to continue trading with them
		
Click to expand...

And does that apply the the USA, China, India, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, South Africa and so on and so forth.  As an independent country we can trade with the EU any way we wish to trade with them, Ok we would need to meet certain quality and environmental standards but remember trade is a two way arrangement and in that respect we hold a very powerful ace in our hands.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm England does get EU money 

Why on earth would you cut yourself off from the biggest single trade market in the world - thousands of businesses around the UK rely on that trade from the EU 

And you need more than land to grow food. 

And those Japanese car factories you are taking about - guess where they export most of the cars too - that's right - the EU. If we don't trade cars with the EU then those manufacturers will just up and leave to the EU

You can't cut your nose off to spite your face - that's just suicide for the future
		
Click to expand...

Ummmm! The EU doesn't have any money, it only uses the money taxpayers give them,   The money England gets is some  of it's money being given back, I thought you would understand that.

You talk as if on a certain day two years hence all trade with EU countries will stop, do you really believe that will happen? 'Cut yourselves off" what do you mean by that, it's a ludicrous thing to say. 

The worst case scenario would be that we reverted to WTO rules whereby tariffs of around 4% could be used by the EU but if we also applied them then who would be worse off by this, I would suggest the one who sells the most.


----------



## adam6177 (Jun 29, 2016)

I understand the theory behind those wishing 16-17 year olds had got a vote....you think the numbers may have swayed the vote in your favour (in my opinion).  Realistically though who knows how they would have voted.

I'm university educated, live in an affluent area of kent, work for a bank in London......all the qualities of someone who should have voted to remain.  I didn't. I voted leave.

When I was 16/17 years old I was more interested in Linda Lusardi, Cindy Crawford and how many hours I was going to spend playing Sonic or Mario or Resident evil.  At that age do I think I was even remotely qualified to vote on the destiny of our country or our membership of the EU......nope.  How many 16-17 years do I think are qualified now.....not very many.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I am tired of the stuff that is mud slinging from both end. Leave did not get the economic consequence (or puts a brave face on it).  Remain is sore but cant do anything about.  The last few days we have been trying to see options and impacts for us and clients and how we keep jobs going etc.  The reality is that it will lead to uncertainty which no one likes.  You will see plans being put on hold (Siemens in Hull), jobs moving (HSBC) and others. Cameron played a great hand by not invoking Article 50.  Whoever gets the crown will either be responsible for either breaking up the country and more economic misery or risk alienating the 50% who voted Leave.  No wonder Boris was a deflated D-bag in his victory speech.  

Anyways, a week on from the vote, the emerging view of the potential scenario (IMO) is that 
1) UK will exit but will  want to get access to free markets.  The WTO option is not what the UK wants as it will not help the country
2) EU will like to make an example of it but cant afford UK to leave. So in exchange of free access to markets will ask for free movement of labour
3) The compromise position will be that UK gets access to EU market and EU will get free labour movement for _existing or original_ EU countries. 

So Brexiters can claim victory that stopped the Turkey influx (which was unlikely) and got access to markets. However, in reality not much changes on the immigration front, we still have to abide by EU regulations as we need to trade with them. It will reduce our contribution to the EU fund from Â£350m(??) per week *BUT* we lose all our opportunities to veto or control anything within the EU like we can do today.

Before everyone throws knives at me, I am not saying this is an official position but looks like the most likely scenario and it WILL be painful to get there. My friend knows this week if she has a job - she voted leave and works for a small family owned importing firm and they cant afford the drop in GBP. But as one of the Brexiter told me, I asked her grow a couple and move on, the mortgage will sort itself.
		
Click to expand...

Keep Calm and see how the dust settles.   The markets and sterling are doing much better than expected, it's early days and much can be achieved in the long time span negotiations will take.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ummmm! The EU doesn't have any money, it only uses the money taxpayers give them,   The money England gets is some  of it's money being given back, I thought you would understand that.

You talk as if on a certain day two years hence all trade with EU countries will stop, do you really believe that will happen? 'Cut yourselves off" what do you mean by that, it's a ludicrous thing to say. 

The worst case scenario would be that we reverted to WTO rules whereby tariffs of around 4% could be used by the EU but if we also applied them then who would be worse off by this, I would suggest the one who sells the most.
		
Click to expand...

Please read the post I was quoting which was in response to Crazyface rant 

Maybe just once take a step back and look at all the posts instead of charging in like a bull in a china shop - either that or you are just selectively reading posts. 

Crazyface said England get no money from the EU - clearly they do in regards grants from the EU for many things - I know where the money comes from - that wasn't up for debate 

Crazyface said that we shouldn't buy a thing from the EU - clearly that is one of the most ludicrous things said. I didn't once suggest "cut yourself off" 

Please just once look at the post I was responding to.

I know you are on a mission to ensure your theory that it's all going to be ok is going to happen but I think it's time you realised that people have genuine worries for the future that you can't answer - finances and businesses in this nation are already being affected by what has happened and people will rightly be worried for the future- if you don't understand that now I don't think you ever will and being honest I don't think you really care if it goes wrong


----------



## One Planer (Jun 29, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980


----------



## Rooter (Jun 29, 2016)

One Planer said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980

Click to expand...

LOL maybe if the Scots said Andy Murray was European that could sway it...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please read the post I was quoting which was in response to Crazyface rant 

Maybe just once take a step back and look at all the posts instead of charging in like a bull in a china shop - either that or you are just selectively reading posts. 

Crazyface said England get no money from the EU - clearly they do in regards grants from the EU for many things - I know where the money comes from - that wasn't up for debate 

Crazyface said that we shouldn't buy a thing from the EU - clearly that is one of the most ludicrous things said. I didn't once suggest "cut yourself off" 

Please just once look at the post I was responding to.

I know you are on a mission to ensure your theory that it's all going to be ok is going to happen but I think it's time you realised that people have genuine worries for the future that you can't answer - finances and businesses in this nation are already being affected by what has happened and people will rightly be worried for the future- *if you don't understand that now I don't think you ever will and being honest I don't think you really care if it goes wrong*

Click to expand...

I understand the picture and concerns that many have, understanding concerns doesn't mean you have to agree they are probabilities though.    I cant see the point of all this negativity going on, If the vote had been to Remain then I would have been disappointed and accepted the decision,  but not screaming it was undemocratic or looking for ways to create divisions in the country.

Of course I don't want  it to go wrong, thats ridiculous, when I believe in something then I cant be doing with negative thinking and looking back over shoulders, 'a faint heart never won a fair ladies heart', 'You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative, Latch on to the affirmative and don't mess with Mister In-Between'.  British people pick them selves up, brush themselves down and get on with it.     I expect that will trigger Article 50 of the Yurt Dwellers and Yogurt Eating populous displeasure buy 'Hey Ho' what doesn't


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2016)

There is a very easy way out of this.
English MP starts a private members bill to remove England and Wales from the Union Act.
56+ votes will win it.
Everybody happy.

BTW why are England & Wales so desperate to keep Scotland in the UK [again] ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a very easy way out of this.
English MP starts a private members bill to remove England and Wales from the Union Act.
56+ votes will win it.
Everybody happy.

BTW why are England & Wales so desperate to keep Scotland in the UK [again] ?
		
Click to expand...

No, we only want you to go


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ummmm! The EU doesn't have any money, it only uses the money taxpayers give them,   The money England gets is some  of it's money being given back, I thought you would understand that.

You talk as if on a certain day two years hence all trade with EU countries will stop, do you really believe that will happen? 'Cut yourselves off" what do you mean by that, it's a ludicrous thing to say. 

The worst case scenario would be that we reverted to WTO rules whereby tariffs of around 4% could be used by the EU but if we also applied them then who would be worse off by this, I would suggest the one who sells the most.
		
Click to expand...

I know I've posted this several times already but the tarrifs are mostly a non story. Go to around 16 mins for a better explanation of the trade bit

[video=youtube_share;USTypBKEd8Y]https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y[/video]


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I understand the picture and concerns that many have, understanding concerns doesn't mean you have to agree they are probabilities though.    I cant see the point of all this negativity going on, If the vote had been to Remain then I would have been disappointed and accepted the decision,  but not screaming it was undemocratic or looking for ways to create divisions in the country.

Of course I don't want  it to go wrong, thats ridiculous, when I believe in something then I cant be doing with negative thinking and looking back over shoulders, 'a faint heart never won a fair ladies heart', 'You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative, Latch on to the affirmative, Don't mess with Mister In-Between'.  British people pick them selves up, brush themselves down and get on with it.     I expect that will trigger Article 50 of the Yurt Dwellers and Yogurt Eating populous displeasure buy 'Hey Ho' what doesn't 

Click to expand...

A lot of people will be feeling negative right now because that's the reaction that is being seen within financial markets and within certain businesses and the reactions of the rest of Europe - there also seems an amount of people who were fully unaware of what the aftermath that could possibly happen and how it could affect local businesses that deal with the EU in any shape or form. We can all think that we are in a strong position and we hold all the cards but it's possible that our position isn't as strong as we think and the affect could damage the nation further.

Right now any damage that is being caused is all because of the knee jerk reaction - the stock markets are getting hit , the pound is getting hit and that will transfer onto your average person in the street - then you have the image that is being damaged right now , all the racist attacks being highlight are putting the nation in a poor light around the world - that will have an affect. Then the reactions of the Scottish , N Irish and even Gibralter are having a damaging affect of us being a "United" Kingdom 

When outsiders look in at us they won't see a "strong United Nation" ready to show its hand and become a big voice on its on without the need of the EU - they see a nation split in two and fighting on both sides 

For a good number of people the positives of us leaving the EU are minuscule compared to the negatives and the reaction seems to me to show that amount of people isn't a small number


----------



## User62651 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rooter said:



			LOL maybe if the Scots said Andy Murray was European that could sway it...
		
Click to expand...

?? Murray *is* a European  LOL! 
Nicola has an agenda yes but many in England will wish her well, maybe even admire her, for showing leadership and trying to build bridges so doing something in the face of what the bumpkin shire folks of England have done to the UKs standing in the world and how it will be viewed. 
Most likely any Brexit deal will be negotiated so we're officially out of the EU but we'll effectively still be in the EU in all but name like Norway in EEA, little will change, just a face saving exercise for Boris and co. Will be a 5 year waste of time process.


----------



## IainP (Jun 29, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36665685

Maybe we just have to wait and see...


----------



## Fish (Jun 29, 2016)

Something rotten in Luxemburg.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36662636


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2016)

IainP said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36665685

Maybe we just have to wait and see...
		
Click to expand...

Can't help but think that there will be several from the Remain camp that will be very disappointed by seeing those stories as their predictions of a financial apocalypse seem to be faltering already. I wonder if any of the people that were saying that 2 trillion pounds had been lost in the wake of the Leave vote will be coming out and saying that we have now gained most of it back?


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2016)

Here's a (classically neutral BBC approach) link that should be read in conjunction with those IamP posted - and commented upon by Colchester!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36661918


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The brilliant post from a Guardian commentator.. in case folks havent read it..  

====
_
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

*How?*

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

_

Click to expand...

A brilliant piece of fiction I agree.


----------



## full_throttle (Jun 29, 2016)

Listening to the news today it appears EU leaders have held a meeting without the UK, and there will be another in September again without the UK.

My question is, Is this legal? Until article 50 in invoked, are we not still part of the EU?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			Everyone is banging on about the 73% of young people voting remain, however they also fail to mention the 36% turnout. It's hardly the majority of young people who are being victimised like they make out. Being 21, I see the young moaners first hand, and they seem to me to be following the remain trend as it is "Cool" at the minute.
		
Click to expand...

Careful, you're being too responsible posting accurate, sensible stuff.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Any ideas if this is true ? 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html

Does a bill need to be created to leave the EU and then do the MP's vote on it ?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Here's a (classically neutral BBC approach) link that should be read in conjunction with those IamP posted - and commented upon by Colchester!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36661918

Click to expand...

There's a lot in that article that I don't understand, including the ratings cut, the quote by Paddy Ashdown and then the figures on borrowing. Ashdown is saying that if borrowing costs go up by 0.5% then it will cost double the equivalent of our EU contributions to finance the debt and the ratings agencies have cut our credit rating which should put up interest rates but on government bonds they have dropped meaning it's actually cheaper to borrow for some reason????? And we need to wait until the Q2 growth figures are out until we find out what has actually happened.

FTSE100 and FTSE250 I'm sure will settle down once the money men have finished their gambling and making money from it all.

Weaker pound good for exports and foreign tourists coming to the UK.


----------



## IainP (Jun 29, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Here's a (classically neutral BBC approach) link that should be read in conjunction with those IamP posted - and commented upon by Colchester!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36661918

Click to expand...

Hey, who is this "IamP" ?
Just stick an exclamation mark in after the a, as a Foxy post with just one ! is well below the Foxy average  :thup:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2016)

IainP said:



			Hey, who is this "IamP" ?
Just stick an exclamation mark in after the a, as a Foxy post with just one ! is well below the Foxy average  :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Doh!!  Apologies!!  

!

Better? :rofl:


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's a lot in that article that I don't understand, including the ratings cut, the quote by Paddy Ashdown and then the figures on borrowing. Ashdown is saying that if borrowing costs go up by 0.5% then it will cost double the equivalent of our EU contributions to finance the debt and the ratings agencies have cut our credit rating which should put up interest rates but on government bonds they have dropped meaning it's actually cheaper to borrow for some reason????? And we need to wait until the Q2 growth figures are out until we find out what has actually happened.

FTSE100 and FTSE250 I'm sure will settle down once the money men have finished their gambling and making money from it all.

Weaker pound good for exports and foreign tourists coming to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Ratings cut should be pretty self-explanatory - the ratings agency feel less enthusiastic about UK's economic prospects (sufficiently so to 'downgrade' their view - and there's a lot of 'detail' missing, but that's why rating agencies are useful, and used).

As for the other effects....There are so many elements to an economy that it's pretty much impossible to monitor and react to each (and the overall) tiny variation! There are large numbers of extremely well (over?) paid folk employed to do exactly that - and, of course, their activity has an influence on the overall sentiment too! It's rather a different scene to the 'old' image of 4 'independent' gentlemen meeting each afternoon setting the price of Gold for the day! Pretty much the equivalent to a duck/swan gracefully moving upstream!

Politicians, of course, simply look for events/figures/approaches that support their particular view - the Â£350Million being a classic case! True, yet false at the same time! And will any money 'recovered' be given directly to NHS? Unlikely imo, but I'm sure some politicians will point at some numbers and say that's what happened! Likewise, a weaker pound has advantages as well as disadvantages and it depends on your point of view which is 'better' at any time!

Do I sound cynical? Damned right - because that's basically what I am when it comes to politics, and (UK) news media (propaganda!) except for that bastion of neutrality, the BBC! Typically, Ashdown is (probably) correct, though he omits to mention that the rush to 'safer' instruments mean that Government borrowing is cheaper, so there's a consequent saving. That''s what happens in a 'market' economy and it's the job of the Bank of England to manage (actually...referee might be a better term!) that overall. And there's a lot more to it than simply setting interest rates! Actually, the significantly greater role/responsibility of the BoE was probably Gordon Brown's best and most significant contribution to the UK!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 29, 2016)

What's the point talking about the markets? The Bank of England has stabilised the markets with there Â£250 billion... Take that away and where would it all be? You see George was actually trying to get the fall out reduced... And fair play he has made an effort. 
The issue is who is going to pay for the Â£250billion ? Secondly what happens when we stop spending because some of us are quite cautious ( probably 48% ) ... I'll leave it there. I am sure the deluded Shankar will come on and pooh pooh it ( cos he finks he's alright.... Sod the kids)


----------



## IainP (Jun 29, 2016)

I don't do FBook but apparently this is doing the rounds. Tidied to aim to make it forum suitable (mods jump in if needed)

"

Right. #### this. We're ALL up #### creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all ###### off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, #####!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ####### Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.

David. #### off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a #### but you're our ####. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the #### her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ####### bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the #### out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ####### love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. #### it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?

Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that #### coming. We definitely need more of that good ####!

Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.
"


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			What's the point talking about the markets? The Bank of England has stabilised the markets with there Â£250 billion... Take that away and where would it all be? You see George was actually trying to get the fall out reduced... And fair play he has made an effort. 
*The issue is who is going to pay for the Â£250billion *? Secondly what happens when we stop spending because some of us are quite cautious ( probably 48% ) ... I'll leave it there. I am sure the deluded Shankar will come on and pooh pooh it ( cos he finks he's alright.... Sod the kids)
		
Click to expand...

Well - it could be covered by 14yrs worth of Â£350m / week


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 29, 2016)

Two very good images I have seen today 







And just seen that Crabb is going for the Tory leaders job - after what he said about homosexuality his appointment would set the country back decades


----------



## IainP (Jun 29, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			What's the point talking about the markets? *The Bank of England has stabilised the markets with there Â£250 billion... *Take that away and where would it all be? You see George was actually trying to get the fall out reduced... And fair play he has made an effort. 
The issue is who is going to pay for the Â£250billion ? Secondly what happens when we stop spending because some of us are quite cautious ( probably 48% ) ... I'll leave it there. I am sure the deluded Shankar will come on and pooh pooh it ( cos he finks he's alright.... Sod the kids)
		
Click to expand...

Curious, where did you pick that from?
Thought it was closer to 9, and a fair chunk was before the actual vote.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 29, 2016)

IainP said:



			Curious, where did you pick that from?
Thought it was closer to 9, and a fair chunk was before the actual vote.
		
Click to expand...

That's what was offered as a slush fund...


http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/news/2016/056.aspx


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - it could be covered by 14yrs worth of Â£350m / week
		
Click to expand...

But won't ... Did you work out the compound interest ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			What's the point talking about the markets? The Bank of England has stabilised the markets with there Â£250 billion... Take that away and where would it all be? You see George was actually trying to get the fall out reduced... And fair play he has made an effort. 
The issue is who is going to pay for the Â£250billion ? Secondly what happens when we stop spending because some of us are quite cautious ( probably 48% ) ... I'll leave it there. I am sure the deluded Shankar will come on and pooh pooh it ( cos he finks he's alright.... Sod the kids)
		
Click to expand...

FTSE 100 =  6,360.06  Now higher than before the Referendum.
GBP/USD = 1.3451
GBP/Euro = 1.2092



Well Mr Harpie, still putting out your dicey rhetoric and misleading utterings of doom.

Where did you get this utter claptrap where the BOE has put Â£250 Billion into the markets    They have released Â£3.1 billion on Tuesday that was the last of the extra auctions announced by the Bank of England in March this year and the third and final part of these secured loans to banks that bid for it.    Don't worry too much though, they are not expecting to find it in your bank account so you will still be able to manage a rainy weekend in Skeggy this August.   Keep talking down your country and you may get what you wish for.

Stupid Boy Pike  :rofl:


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			FTSE 100 =  6,360.06  Now higher than before the Referendum.
GBP/USD = 1.3451
GBP/Euro = 1.2092



Well Mr Harpie, still putting out your dicey rhetoric and misleading utterings of doom.

Where did you get this utter claptrap where the BOE has put Â£250 Billion into the markets    They have released Â£3.1 billion on Tuesday that was the last of the extra auctions announced by the Bank of England in March this year and the third and final part of these secured loans to banks that bid for it.    Don't worry too much though, they are not expecting to find it in your bank account so you will still be able to manage a rainy weekend in Skeggy this August.   Keep talking down your country and you may get what you wish for.

Stupid Boy Pike  :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

the action of saying it was available was enough to settle the markets ... The rest of what your saying is delusional... Perhaps you should leave ? I am pretty sure if the 52 % who voted leave did leave economically we would be better off, there would be a few more houses ( we could knock them down) .. Plus you could enjoy each other's company... Go on off you go ...leave ... Stop back peddling pack up your stuff and go ....


----------



## Jimaroid (Jun 30, 2016)

What does the fall in value of sterling mean to the FTSE100's recovery? It's worth less despite going up. 

And the FTSE250 is still way behind. 

Not out of the woods yet.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Two very good images I have seen today 

View attachment 20043


View attachment 20044


And just seen that Crabb is going for the Tory leaders job - after what he said about homosexuality his appointment would set the country back decades
		
Click to expand...

Amazing that the tories have a seemingly endless supply of odious candidates. I wouldn't have thought it possible to dredge up someone worse than the lying blonde buffoon and "fed up with experts" gove.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			What does the fall in value of sterling mean to the FTSE100's recovery? It's worth less despite going up. 

And the FTSE250 is still way behind. 

Not out of the woods yet.
		
Click to expand...

Mainly multinationals in the ftse100, the 250 is a better indicator of uk businesses. We're in for years of economic turmoil before things settle down. Huge uncertainty at the moment.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

Hey Socket, here's one for you to throw back at me and several other Guardian readers on here.  http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/guardian-reader-secretly-loving-all-this-20160630109989

You're welcome...


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 30, 2016)

Gove now entered race for Tory leadership and PM.

Was it someone on here that posted that Gove had his sights on being PM for a long time and was playing a waiting game, playing it down?

Whoever said that was right on the money.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Gove now entered race for Tory leadership and PM.

Was it someone on here that posted that Gove had his sights on being PM for a long time and was playing a waiting game, playing it down?

Whoever said that was right on the money.
		
Click to expand...

T'was me, but I got it on good authority from an ex-uni classmate who has been a Tory activist/politician for 30 years and worked with him canvassing in Aberdeen long time ago, now hates Gove for what he and Boris did to his man Cameron! Will be many other Tory memebers feeling the same way I guess.
That 'leaked' email from Gove's wife yesterday was all part of the game, leaked as in deliberately released!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			the action of saying it was available was enough to settle the markets ... The rest of what your saying is delusional... Perhaps you should leave ? I am pretty sure if the 52 % who voted leave did leave economically we would be better off, there would be a few more houses ( we could knock them down) .. Plus you could enjoy each other's company... Go on off you go ...leave ... Stop back peddling pack up your stuff and go ....
		
Click to expand...

All up again, maybe you would like to talk it down 

FTSE 100 = 6,361.94 Now even higher than before the Referendum.
GBP/USD = 1.3486
GBP/Euro = 1.2113

I'm going nowhere as I am British and not a European.   You however are welcome to go and dwell among your brethren in Bulgaria or whatever suits your European inner man.

I wont bother replying to the rest of the drivel in your post as you are a very sill boy Pike . :rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Gove now entered race for Tory leadership and PM.

Was it someone on here that posted that Gove had his sights on being PM for a long time and was playing a waiting game, playing it down?

Whoever said that was right on the money.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, another Scottish PM


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Excellent, another Scottish PM 

Click to expand...

Theresa will more than likely win it.  Was very impressive this morning.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Theresa will more than likely win it.  Was very impressive this morning.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully so. The best of a very bad bunch.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			All up again, maybe you would like to talk it down 

FTSE 100 = 6,361.94 Now even higher than before the Referendum.
GBP/USD = 1.3486
GBP/Euro = 1.2113

I'm going nowhere as I am British and not a European.   You however are welcome to go and dwell among your brethren in Bulgaria or whatever suits your European inner man.

I wont bother replying to the rest of the drivel in your post as you are a very sill boy Pike . :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Are you deliberately ignoring FTSE250, which is seen as the best indicator of the UK Market?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Are you deliberately ignoring FTSE250, which is seen as the best indicator of the UK Market?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...king-at-the-ftse-250-and-not-the-ftse-100-to/


----------



## vkurup (Jun 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please read the post I was quoting which was in response to Crazyface rant 

Maybe just once take a step back and look at all the posts instead of charging in like a bull in a china shop - either that or you are just selectively reading posts. 

Crazyface said England get no money from the EU - clearly they do in regards grants from the EU for many things - I know where the money comes from - that wasn't up for debate 

Crazyface said that we shouldn't buy a thing from the EU - clearly that is one of the most ludicrous things said. I didn't once suggest "cut yourself off" 

Please just once look at the post I was responding to.

I know you are on a mission to ensure your theory that it's all going to be ok is going to happen but I think it's time you realised that people have genuine worries for the future that you can't answer - finances and businesses in this nation are already being affected by what has happened and people will rightly be worried for the future- if you don't understand that now I don't think you ever will and being honest I don't think you really care if it goes wrong
		
Click to expand...

+1... though i am sure SR is going to have a go at me +1-ing you..  The world is slighly bigger than all of our oysters.


----------



## vkurup (Jun 30, 2016)

hahahaa... Boris not running for Tory leadership  .. (this year).
He knows he will be doomed if he invokes Article 50 and doomed if he doesnt.... good move to kick the ball into the long grass and pick it up in about 3-4-5 years.  A Brexiter wanting to distance himself from his promises??


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2016)

vkurup said:



			hahahaa... Boris not running for Tory leadership  .. (this year).
He knows he will be doomed if he invokes Article 50 and doomed if he doesnt.... good move to kick the ball into the long grass and pick it up in about 3-4-5 years.  A Brexiter wanting to distance himself from his promises??
		
Click to expand...

Not a surprise. A man without principle other than personal ambition who recognises that the next PM is damned whether he or she invokes article 50 or not.

Who will be the tories David moyes?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Are you deliberately ignoring FTSE250, which is seen as the best indicator of the UK Market?
		
Click to expand...

OK lets have a look at the FTSE 250 as thats been picked as  support to some of those looking for a worse case scenario to talk down the country.

The FTSE 250 currently stands at 16,002, on the 16th June before the referendum it was at 16,320, it took an understandable dip after the referendum result but is now growing strongly.    In Feb 2016 it stood at 15,431, in August 2015 it stood at 16,214,  In July 2013 it stood at 14,009.

Talking it down in the way many sour faced Remainers are doing is typical of the many losers that prefer to knock the UK at every opportunity.   We will emerge stronger and better off by our decision to Leave.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 30, 2016)

Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated - stats say that. 
How can you expect the majority of educated people to accept their guidance on the future economical situation?? 
Are people talking the economy down, no. Is it a complex reaction to a misguided decision based on no facts, probably yes. Do we have any confidence in the stuff being said by the leavers - probably not. 
I don't ask my mechanic to check my personal health ...


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK lets have a look at the FTSE 250 as thats been picked as  support to some of those looking for a worse case scenario to talk down the country.

The FTSE 250 currently stands at 16,002, on the 16th June before the referendum it was at 16,320, it took an understandable dip after the referendum result but is now growing strongly.    In Feb 2016 it stood at 15,431, in August 2015 it stood at 16,214,  In July 2013 it stood at 14,009.

*Talking it down in the way many sour faced Remainers are doing is typical of the many losers that prefer to knock the UK at every opportunity.   We will emerge stronger and better off by our decision to Leave.*

Click to expand...

What complete hogwash!

There is no 'talking it down' from the professionals whose jobs and livelihoods are based on being 'ahead of the game', whatever the triggers for any movement! They may take a view on individual companies wrt to the effect of Brexit, but there's certainly no room for sentiment in that area, simply hard-nosed trading attitudes!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated - stats say that. 
How can you expect the majority of educated people to accept their guidance on the future economical situation?? 
Are people talking the economy down, no. Is it a complex reaction to a misguided decision based on no facts, probably yes. Do we have any confidence in the stuff being said by the leavers - probably not. 
I don't ask my mechanic to check my personal health ...
		
Click to expand...

That's a rather stupid comment even for you (and that's saying something).

I guess its lazier than debating the actual issues but with every post you are coming over as someone with a limited ability for  reasoned debate.   If you cant argue the points presented to you in an intelligent manner then replying with a post like the above says little for your intellect.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

FAO Foxholer.

I have you on my ignore list and cant see any of your posts.  Just in case you are looking for a reply to anything.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			FAO Foxholer.

*I have you on my ignor*e* list and cant see any of your posts*.  Just in case you are looking for a reply to anything.
		
Click to expand...

Can I go on it??


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I go on it??

Click to expand...

No.  Your not nearly annoying enough


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			FAO Foxholer.

I have you on my ignore list and cant see any of your posts.....
		
Click to expand...

:thup:



Hacker Khan said:



			Can I go on it??

Click to expand...

@Hacker... :rofl: As a Chair of Governors, I'm sure you recognise the expression... 'must try harder'!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			:thup: Fine by me!



@Hacker... As a Chair of Governors, I'm sure you recognise the expression... *'must try harder'!* :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

jeez, what does it take to get put on the ignore list by leavers nowadays.  Tough audience.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not a surprise. A man without principle other than personal ambition who recognises that the next PM is damned whether he or she invokes article 50 or not.

Who will be the tories David moyes?
		
Click to expand...

:lol:
Funny but true.
+
Those desperately trying to talk up the money markets have no idea how much the BoE are throwing at it at the mo.
[BoE boss shakes head slowly]


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			jeez, what does it take to get put on the ignore list by leavers nowadays.  Tough audience.
		
Click to expand...

From my experience, simply pointing out errors and/or asking for evidence/facts!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol:
Funny but true.
+
Those desperately trying to talk up the money markets have no idea how much the BoE are throwing at it at the mo.
[BoE boss shakes head slowly]
		
Click to expand...

3.1 Billion Pounds that was already available for bids in April.   If you have some evidence of more then please enlighten us.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

I'd argue all this FTSE 100. 250, 3000 or whatever is actually not that relevant.  Yes it reflects the markets initial reaction to the decision, but the most financial damage (or benefits I suppose if I am being charitable) will be done in the long term IMHO, not over the first couple of weeks.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			3.1 Billion Pounds that was already available for bids in April.   If you have some evidence of more then please enlighten us.
		
Click to expand...

No, just like you, I haven't a clue


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 30, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



*Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated - stats say that. *How can you expect the majority of educated people to accept their guidance on the future economical situation?? 
Are people talking the economy down, no. Is it a complex reaction to a misguided decision based on no facts, probably yes. Do we have any confidence in the stuff being said by the leavers - probably not. 
I don't ask my mechanic to check my personal health ...
		
Click to expand...

How dreadfully unfortunate for all the educated yoof, who didn't realise that a post on Facebook or Twitter didn't count, that the uneducated old codgers realised that you had to get off your backside and go to the ballot box.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue all this FTSE 100. 250, 3000 or whatever is actually not that relevant.  Yes it reflects the markets initial reaction to the decision, but the most financial damage (or benefits I suppose if I am being charitable) will be done in the long term IMHO, not over the first couple of weeks.
		
Click to expand...

That's fair comment but some here have been saying the markets have collapsed and the FTSE 250 is the one to watch as its plummeted but it's not the case.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			How dreadfully unfortunate for all the educated yoof, who didn't realise that a post on Facebook or Twitter didn't count, that the uneducated old codgers realised that you had to get off your backside and go to the ballot box.  

Click to expand...

The ballot box is sooooooooo yesterday. 
The old codgers have a postal vote nowadays, saves the bother of getting a bus to the polling station


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, just like you, I haven't a clue
		
Click to expand...

I told you what has happened.   If  you dont know then don't suggest the BOE are flooding money into the markets


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The ballot box is sooooooooo yesterday. 
The old codgers have a postal vote nowadays, saves the bother of getting a bus to the polling station

Click to expand...

I guess you include yourself in that comment Mr Doom.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you include yourself in that comment Mr Doom.
		
Click to expand...

It does.
No point in wasting energy.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I told you what has happened.   If  you dont know then don't suggest the BOE are flooding money into the markets 

Click to expand...

Where did I suggest?
I just said 'we have no idea'.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated - stats say that. .
		
Click to expand...

Does that mean that those that couldn't be bothered to vote were just idle and thick.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

Good news for banana fans  http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...r-shaped-bananas-arrives-in-uk-20160630109996


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good news for banana fans  http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...r-shaped-bananas-arrives-in-uk-20160630109996

Click to expand...

Tut tut! Shame on you for being so mis-*in*formed 

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 30, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Does that mean that those that couldn't be bothered to vote were just idle and thick.
		
Click to expand...

Who knows no stats .. Could say some are not old enough to have completed further education ...


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Who knows no stats .. Could say some are not old enough to have completed further education ...
		
Click to expand...

I take it you stayed in bed then.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tut tut! Shame on you for being so mis-*in*formed 

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html

Click to expand...

OMG!!! Next you'll be telling me that Â£350 million will probably not be going to the NHS every week!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Does that mean that those that couldn't be bothered to vote were just idle and thick.
		
Click to expand...

Only 35% of the 18 to 25 year olds voted 'v' 81% of the over 65's. Maybe the over 65's care more about the UK than the youngsters.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Only 35% of the 18 to 25 year olds voted 'v' 81% of the over 65's. Maybe the over 65's care more about the UK than the youngsters.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## harpo_72 (Jun 30, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I take it you stayed in bed then.
		
Click to expand...

No .. Why would I?


----------



## Val (Jun 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			jeez, what does it take to get put on the ignore list by leavers nowadays.  Tough audience.
		
Click to expand...

Who said that


----------



## Slime (Jun 30, 2016)

What are we all worrying about?
There are so many phenomonal intellects, who know absolutely everything there is to know, on this forum alone.
It's just amazing how, despite diametrically opposing views, nobody is ever wrong!!
The leavers, me included, are just racist little Englanders who have ruined everything for the younger generations and the remainers have just been, well, robbed by us idiots, despite it being a democratic vote.
So many bad losers and also the occasional bad winner!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2016)

Slime said:



			What are we all worrying about?
There are so many phenomonal intellects, who know absolutely everything there is to know, on this forum alone.
It's just amazing how, despite diametrically opposing views, nobody is ever wrong!!
*The leavers, me included, are just racist little Englanders *who have ruined everything for the younger generations and the remainers have just been, well, robbed by us idiots, despite it being a democratic vote.
So many bad losers and also the occasional bad winner!
		
Click to expand...

It's amazing how many times that little line is trotted out yet it's just another generalisation 

I must certainly don't think everyone who voted leave is a racist little Englander - I know there are certainly racist little Englanders who voted to leave but certainly not judging everyone who voted to leave the same way and not really it seen on here bar the odd person


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's amazing how many times that little line is trotted out yet it's just another generalisation 

I must certainly don't think everyone who voted leave is a racist little Englander - I know there are certainly racist little Englanders who voted to leave but certainly not judging everyone who voted to leave the same way and not really it seen on here bar the odd person
		
Click to expand...

Hic !


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Me and HID getting out to vote, we did hang our depleted IQ's on the coat hangers when we went in the Polling Station though.  And you think us OAPs are stupid!


View attachment 20065


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Hic !
		
Click to expand...

Excellent insightful post :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Excellent insightful post :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Im pleased you agree.   Hope your feeling better :rofl:


----------



## vkurup (Jun 30, 2016)

So Carney says more quant easing likely in summer, GBP goes down, interest rates likely to be cut to boost consumption.  Result - mortgage rates likely to go down which will help the young; saving rates go down so Savers (mostly old) will be hit. Funny the comeuppance for age based demographic ..


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So Carney says more quant easing likely in summer, GBP goes down, interest rates likely to be cut to boost consumption.  Result - mortgage rates likely to go down which will help the young; saving rates go down so Savers (mostly old) will be hit. Funny the comeuppance for age based demographic ..
		
Click to expand...

You are a disgusting Xenophobic Ageist and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Your vilifying of a section of the population  that is creating divisions and hatred is on a par with the racist idiots calling out insults on foreigners.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are a disgusting Xenophobic Ageist and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Your vilifying of a section of the population  that is creating divisions and hatred is on a par with the racist idiots calling out insults on foreigners.
		
Click to expand...

Xenophobic??  

And all he is doing is pointing out yet another unfortunate consequence that this may have on the people that (on average) voted for it. 

You could argue on the other side of the coin that if the interest rates go down and house prices go down as many predict, then houses become more affordable for the younger generation. So the youngsters can thank the coffin dodgers, sorry, wise old generations for that one. Every cloud and all that


----------



## vkurup (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are a disgusting Xenophobic Ageist and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Your vilifying of a section of the population  that is creating divisions and hatred is on a par with the racist idiots calling out insults on foreigners.
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure how you reached that conclusion from a news story. I won't dignify it with a response...

PS: sent to mods


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I am not sure how you reached that conclusion from a news story. I won't dignify it with a response...

*PS: sent to mods*

Click to expand...

:rofl:Speaks volumes, likes to dish it out when it suits (not the last particular reply but many others) then runs to the teachers when something you don't like comes back.........


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

So it's now hitting the point of petty name calling and accusations- at least it's mirroring what's happening everywhere else - and people don't think the country is in a mess ?


----------



## vkurup (Jul 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			:rofl:Speaks volumes, likes to dish it out when it suits (not the last particular reply but many others) then runs to the teachers when something you don't like comes back.........
		
Click to expand...

I don't recall any of my posts showering half baked personal insults on anyone. On this thread, I have talked about Leave in general while resisiting any temptation to do otherwise..


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 1, 2016)

Pointing out yet another unfortunate consequence that Brexit will have for the people that voted for it?

Why? What is the point?

Endless posts  that basically says  "good, I told you it would happen" isn't very productive and it certainly won't change things. 

Surely It's much healthier to look forward, embrace change and highlight positives. Moping, dwelling on the past, picking out negative tweets , news stories etc  cannot change anything and  isnt good for you and the people around you.

Cheer up , spend less time on here and move on.


----------



## IainP (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's now hitting the point of petty name calling and accusations- at least it's mirroring what's happening everywhere else - and people don't think the country is in a mess ?
		
Click to expand...

Personally I feel the referendum itself has brought to the fore the divisions in the country, think it would be pretty similar which ever way the the vote went. Not sure if you were saying that, or picking out the result? From memory a large section of Conservatives (probably other MPs also)  have been keen to leave the EU for many years, hence having a referendum going into the election pledges.

This sort of stuff really does not help



harpo_72 said:



			Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated -
		
Click to expand...

Expect one or two of those MPs had expensive private educations!


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

I think we've got out just in time, the Italian banks are on the brink of collapse and getting EU bailouts to the tune of 150bn and the Deutsche Bank is on the cusp of bankruptcy, who'll bail them out now? No wonder they were all quaking in case we left, Europe's sugar daddy is no longer part of the club! 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-€150bn-bank-bailout-program-prevent-run-depo


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Pointing out yet another unfortunate consequence that Brexit will have for the people that voted for it?

Why? What is the point?

Endless posts  that basically says  "good, I told you it would happen" isn't very productive and it certainly won't change things. 

Surely It's much healthier to look forward, embrace change and highlight positives. Moping, dwelling on the past, picking out negative tweets , news stories etc  cannot change anything and  isnt good for you and the people around you.

Cheer up , spend less time on here and move on.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst it continues to affect people's lives then those very same people will feel entitled to be worries and complain - that's called free speech and a part of a democratic process of course 

It seems the answer to people's valid worries is - "Ah don't worry about focus on the positives" - I surprised there hasn't been a "Keep Calm picture added just yet"

The simple truth is the vote has created a lot more issues than people first realised - if you are happy to ignore those issues expecting them to fizzle away then "roll your sleeves up and crack on" but don't expect everyone to follow suit - especially the ones who didn't want it and are feeling the affects of it. 

People will look at the positives when they actually managed to see actual ones as opposed to empty promises


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

IainP said:



			Personally I feel the referendum itself has brought to the fore the divisions in the country, think it would be pretty similar which ever way the the vote went. Not sure if you were saying that, or picking out the result? *From memory a large section of Conservatives (probably other MPs also)  have been keen to leave the EU for many years, *hence having a referendum going into the election pledges.

This sort of stuff really does not help



Expect one or two of those MPs had expensive private educations!
		
Click to expand...

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, I think it's more that they anti-Europeans are very vocal.  I'm sure I read that if this goes to a vote in Parliament then they estimate only around 150 would vote to leave. So assuming most of them would be Tories that is still under half of the Tory MPs.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Pointing out yet another unfortunate consequence that Brexit will have for the people that voted for it?

Why? What is the point?

Endless posts  that basically says  "good, I told you it would happen" isn't very productive and it certainly won't change things. 

Surely It's much healthier to look forward, embrace change and highlight positives. Moping, dwelling on the past, picking out negative tweets , news stories etc  cannot change anything and  isnt good for you and the people around you.

Cheer up , spend less time on here and move on.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, let us all just forget the total muck up the two sides of the Tory party have made of our country.
In financial reality this jolly old jape has sent us back to the 1980's and made the UK the laughing stock of the world.
As for 'I told you it would happen'. Well many experts did and, like Mr Gove, the separatists chose to ignore them.

Lets all go into denial, roll up our sleeves and fight the years of anguish, family break ups and poverty


----------



## IainP (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, I think it's more that they anti-Europeans are very vocal.  I'm sure I read that if this goes to a vote in Parliament then they estimate only around 150 would vote to leave. So assuming most of them would be Tories that is still under half of the Tory MPs.
		
Click to expand...

You may be right, MPs are notoriously fickle to judge! It has been said that Cameron did not want a referendum, so why do you think he put it in, if not to pacify part of his party?
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/conservative-manifesto-reaffirms-inout-eu-referendum-but-is-light-on-the-specifics-of-renegotiation/


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

IainP said:



			You may be right, MPs are notoriously fickle to judge! It has been said that Cameron did not want a referendum, *so why do you think he put it in, if not to pacify part of his party?*
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog...t-is-light-on-the-specifics-of-renegotiation/

Click to expand...

Partly yes and partly to get the voters back who were driftng to UKIP.  Remember at the time this was dreamt up they were sharing power with the lib dems, UKIP was getting more popular and stealing some of the tory votes and the tories were not expecting to get a majority at the next election. So by putting the referendum in the manifesto I think they never expected to have to do it as the tories were expecting to possibly form another government with the lib dems and the lib dems would then veto the referendum.  And there is a train of thought that a lot of the the anti-europeans tend to be the elderly members of the party, so the longer you wait the more they will essentially die off to be replaced by younger more euro friendly MPs. So it will become less of an issue.

But as we all too painfully know, we had the vote and we voted out, 2 things that I would bet they never really wanted or expected to happen.


----------



## IainP (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Partly yes and partly to get the voters back who were driftng to UKIP.  Remember at the time this was dreamt up they were sharing power with the lib dems, UKIP was getting more popular and stealing some of the tory votes and the tories were not expecting to get a majority at the next election. So by putting the referendum in the manifesto I think they never expected to have to do it as the tories were expecting to possibly form another government with the lib dems and the lib dems would then veto the referendum.  And there is a train of thought that a lot of the the anti-europeans tend to be the elderly members of the party, so the longer you wait the more they will essentially die off to be replaced by younger more euro friendly MPs. So it will become less of an issue.

But as we all too painfully know, we had the vote and we voted out, 2 things that I would bet they never really wanted or expected to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, good points. Unfortunately as this is not a computer game, we can't reset to various points in time and run through different decisions. So we'll never never how various outcome would have played out.
Was just looking at the leadership players
May, 59, Remain
Crabb, 43, Remain
Gove, 48, Leave
Leadsom, 53, Leave
Fox, 54, Leave
Maybe does not support your elderly comment.


----------



## Crazyface (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Partly yes and partly to get the voters back who were driftng to UKIP.  Remember at the time this was dreamt up they were sharing power with the lib dems, UKIP was getting more popular and stealing some of the tory votes and the tories were not expecting to get a majority at the next election. So by putting the referendum in the manifesto I think they never expected to have to do it as the tories were expecting to possibly form another government with the lib dems and the lib dems would then veto the referendum.  And there is a train of thought that a lot of the the anti-europeans tend to be the elderly members of the party, so the longer you wait the more they will essentially die off to be replaced by younger more euro friendly MPs. So it will become less of an issue.

But as we all too painfully know, we had the vote and we voted out, 2 things that I would bet they never really wanted or expected to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Tada !!!! This, I think, is the correct post.  Now go on to explain how Corbin was forced to say he wants to remain, but didn't, hence why he's sticking two fingers up to his own MP's, and is clinging on. I hope the party members stick to their guns and vote him back in. Yet another two fingers to the MP's who are so out of touch it is eye watering. I bet Corbin wishes he'd stuck to his guns and told Labour to go with Leave, he could have demanded a Gen Election and walked in.


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Excellent, let us all just forget the total muck up the two sides of the Tory party have made of our country.
In financial reality this jolly old jape has sent us back to the 1980's and made the UK the laughing stock of the world.
As for 'I told you it would happen'. Well many experts did and, like Mr Gove, the separatists chose to ignore them.

Lets all go into denial, roll up our sleeves and fight the years of anguish, family break ups and poverty
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, that's the recipe of change, I know it's a dirty word for some, but _change_ was needed and for those that thought or believed you'd ever reform the EU, well you were kidding yourselves, some of the stories I am following and reading on how some of the banks in Europe are in serious trouble gives me the confidence that we are well out of it, because quite simply, it would be us putting in more money to bail these countries out, and what would have Brussels done to ensure we could do this, fine us, put up our VAT, put more export sanctions on our businesses so that other countries can compete and import into us, we are well out of it IMO, yes nothing can look rosey within days, weeks or even possibly months, but we now we simply cut our cloth to suit and the positives will come to the fore, but they can't and won't happen overnight, there are so many half glass people on here, doom and gloom merchants it's unbelievable, if you were happy how things were and it was only going to get worse IMO, then god knows what kind of country you were prepared and happy to live in, change was needed, it wasn't going to happen by staying, that IMO is fact because everything else around and within the EU is failing and crumbling and it would have hurt us more staying and going down with so many other sinking ships!

I read a very good article regarding the fishing waters stating that once we get them fully back along with certain restrictive quotas that were imposed upon us, that industry alone could produce tens of thousands of jobs, not just on the water, but throughout the whole industry right through to the end user, I'm sure there are many other instances of mass positives out there, but for some reason too many people just want to hang on to all the negatives, because, well because the democratic vote didn't go their way, unbelievable!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Xenophobic??  

And all he is doing is pointing out yet another unfortunate consequence that this may have on the people that (on average) voted for it. 

You could argue on the other side of the coin that if the interest rates go down and house prices go down as many predict, then houses become more affordable for the younger generation. So the youngsters can thank the coffin dodgers, sorry, wise old generations for that one. Every cloud and all that 

Click to expand...

In my opinion he is jumping on the bandwagon of vilifying the older generation for going out and voting for what they individually thought was right.  It's wrong, nasty and stupid to do this but it is almost 'cool' to take this attitude at the moment.


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

Angry Andrea sticking it to them....

[video]https://www.thesun.co.uk/video/news/eu-debate-gets-heated-as-energy-minister-tears-into-brussels-elites/[/video]


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			In my opinion he is jumping on the bandwagon of vilifying the older generation for going out and voting for what they individually thought was right.  It's wrong, nasty and stupid to do this but it is almost 'cool' to take this attitude at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

but where is the xenophobia accusation coming from, I genuinely have no clue


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Tada !!!! This, I think, is the correct post.  Now go on to explain how Corbin was forced to say he wants to remain, but didn't, hence why he's sticking two fingers up to his own MP's, and is clinging on. I hope the party members stick to their guns and vote him back in. Yet another two fingers to the MP's who are so out of touch it is eye watering. I bet Corbin wishes he'd stuck to his guns and told Labour to go with Leave, he could have demanded a Gen Election and walked in.
		
Click to expand...

Even with the trust of the conservatives currently at a very low point, I severely doubt Corbyn, principled as he is, would have the trust of the public and lead the labour party into power.  Unless they formed an alliance with UKIP who are stealing some of their traditional support, which won't happen. The Labour MPs know this, hence the vote of no confidence.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

I think Cameron asked for change, and the EU, as well as Cameron, didn't realise how strong the desire for change was.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

FD spot on the money yet again.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

Well said fully agree

As for the fishing quotas - I'm sure the fisherman understand it was brought in because of depleted stocks and I'm sure the Fisherman understand that the UK EU rep on the fisheries committee was non other that Farage who attended I understand 1 meeting out of 40 plus. 

http://www.libdemvoice.org/about-nigel-farage-and-the-british-fishing-industry-50948.html


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			but where is the xenophobia accusation coming from, I genuinely have no clue
		
Click to expand...

Hate of the stranger.   Hatred towards people who who are different.

In exactly the same way as you Remainers have been labeling Leavers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

I respect your view but what amuses me about many Scots (Not including you here) is that they are prepared to consider independence and are critical of the decision to leave the EU due to it being bad for the economy but are blinded to the damage independence would bring to Scotland's finances.   Seems like it's OK for Scotland to be principled but not the rest of us.

Regarding your final point, I am not embarrassed for my country, on the contrary I am proud we have shown the wherewithal to take a chance and strive for better things.   Change can be difficult and risky but if you want something different then you have to cast off things bind you to the past.   No gain without pain.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I respect your view but what amuses me about many Scots (Not including you here) is that they are prepared to consider independence and are critical of the decision to leave the EU due to it being bad for the economy but are blinded to the damage independence would bring to Scotland's finances.   Seems like it's OK for Scotland to be principled but not the rest of us.
		
Click to expand...

Something we can agree on. Except the word "principled", I'd go with "deluded" but that obviously reflects my own bias on the issues.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly sums up how I feel. We have done the international equivalent of throwing a strop and taking our ball home. Pathetic and embarrassing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well said fully agree

As for the fishing quotas - I'm sure the fisherman understand it was brought in because of depleted stocks and I'm sure the Fisherman understand that the UK EU rep on the fisheries committee was non other that Farage who attended I understand 1 meeting out of 40 plus. 

http://www.libdemvoice.org/about-nigel-farage-and-the-british-fishing-industry-50948.html

Click to expand...

This may save you a lot of posting.

*In the opinion of LiverpoolPhil there is absolutely nothing that will improve in the country following the Brexit vote, everything from now on will be a disaster*

There you go, sorted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Perfectly sums up how I feel. We have done the international equivalent of throwing a strop and taking our ball home. Pathetic and embarrassing.
		
Click to expand...

There's a big old world out there for you if this country embarrasses you.   Democracy is king so get over it please.


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I respect your view but what amuses me about many Scots (Not including you here) is that they are prepared to consider independence and are critical of the decision to leave the EU due to it being bad for the economy but are blinded to the damage independence would bring to Scotland's finances.   Seems like it's OK for Scotland to be principled but not the rest of us.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree with your first part of this I disagree with the point of independence damaging Scotland's finances, I believe with the right structure in place Scotland would do just fine. Scotland has a lot more to offer than just oil.

In not pro-independence just to be clear though.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I respect your view but what amuses me about many Scots (Not including you here) is that they are prepared to consider independence and are critical of the decision to leave the EU due to it being bad for the economy but are blinded to the damage independence would bring to Scotland's finances.
		
Click to expand...

Not according to David Cameron, or did you miss what he said a couple of weeks ago.

'Well everything is sweet for Norway, they are a small country with loads of oil'


----------



## ADB (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more FD - sums up my feelings exactly.

I accept that i live in a prosperous part of the country and have plenty of liberal/middle class friends - but never had i misjudged a mood of a nation more than with that vote.


----------



## cartinjan (Jul 1, 2016)

To be frank I fear what will happen in Europe now... not only to United Kingdom but the whole continent both politicaly and ethincally.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

And so the story begins, City dweller, successful fella.....

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...t-severely-damage-business-report-claims.html

Lets hope it is just a few people that move fro HQ and this doesn't turn into a trend.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And so the story begins, City dweller, successful fella.....

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...t-severely-damage-business-report-claims.html

Lets hope it is just a few people that move fro HQ and this doesn't turn into a trend.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that the headline suggests that Easyjet will be moving out of the UK asap but the quote in the article from Easyjet is 

'Until the outcome of the UK/EU negotiations are clearer easyJet does not need to make any other structural or operational changes.*'We have no plans to move from Luton â€“ our home for 20 years.' 

*With the bit in bold contradicting the headline. *
*

And the fact that in bold at the top of the article it says that "Boss McCall believes moving is now a 'dead cert' after Brexit, Sky said"

But his quote in the article itself is "it 'remains to be seen' whether the company's HQ would be shifted following Brexit."

And I wonder why you chose to post a link to that story and not balance it with a story such as this....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36670480


Which says that Barclays and HSBC have no plans to move out of the UK. I'm sure it is easy to find a negative story to support your opinion but it is just as easy for someone to find a positive story to counter it, especially when the headline of the story you link to doesn't actually match the following article.


----------



## User62651 (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And so the story begins, City dweller, successful fella.....

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...t-severely-damage-business-report-claims.html

Lets hope it is just a few people that move fro HQ and this doesn't turn into a trend.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, big companies dont give a monkeys about who voted for what, ultimately they only care about profit so will take whatever measures they see as best, be they panic meausres or not, in a measured and unemotional way to ensure their survival and competitiveness.

Anyone see Gove's lengthy speech earlier, I started off thinking you backstabbing snake and by the end of it as he fielded journalists questions I was thinking you've got a bloody good shot at PM, very impressive intellect on show and quite a lot of charm and humour thrown in - was surprised and rather disappointed in myself at almost being taken in like that! Looked like that speech had been written weeks ago, not since yesterday as he claimed, crafty beggar that one but shrewd to say the least. Do suspect May will have a fight on her hands with him.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

I think it's early days and I'd expect all companies who depend on trade with Europe will be looking at contingency plans in case they are negatively impacted by brexit. Undoubtedly not all of those will move but it seems likely that some will, especially since it looks like it'll be years before we know what platform they would be operating on going forward. Some will see a more stable option and bite the bullet.

The undoubted fact that some will not move doesn't really counter that, in my book. To balance it you'd need new businesses moving to the U.K. as a result of brexit. That might happen but seems very unlikely in the short or even medium term.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

My favourite prof is at it again

[video=youtube_share;0dosmKwrAbI]https://youtu.be/0dosmKwrAbI[/video]


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

We had a good old debate in work 

Most of the people that voted all voted bar remain 

He gave his reasons for voting to leave as 

1. He was hoping that it would mean his own country would follow on ( he is second gen Italian )

2. He wanted to get rid of the current PM

3. He voted against the government 

4. Didnt want to be part of a dictatorship

He had a "leave" campaign group in Hitchin/Stevenage area and that was their basis for voting leave


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			My favourite prof is at it again

[video=youtube_share;0dosmKwrAbI]https://youtu.be/0dosmKwrAbI[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Sounds great but he is funded by the EU which tells me all I need to know.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We had a good old debate in work 

Most of the people that voted all voted bar remain 

He gave his reasons for voting to leave as 

1. He was hoping that it would mean his own country would follow on ( he is second gen Italian )

2. He wanted to get rid of the current PM

3. He voted against the government 

4. Didnt want to be part of a dictatorship

He had a "leave" campaign group in Hitchin/Stevenage area and that was their basis for voting leave
		
Click to expand...

Did you reply

1) Ok, it is a consideration for some I expect.  But possibly not that relevant to the future of the citizens of the UK?
2) That is what general elections are for.
3) I refer to the above answer m'lud
4) Yes that is a fair point as I feel oppressed every waking hour by the dictatorship I am living under. In fact I had some messages of support from some Syrians and Zimbabweans the other day, telling me that they are thinking of me and to stay strong.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Sounds great but he is funded by the EU which tells me all I need to know. 

Click to expand...

He has a tattoo of Juncker on his arse as well. Not a lot of people know that, don't ask me how I know....


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Sounds great but he is funded by the EU which tells me all I need to know. 

Click to expand...

Plus he's a pesky expert so what would he know anyway?


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 1, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			He has a tattoo of Juncker on his arse as well. Not a lot of people know that, don't ask me how I know....
		
Click to expand...

It depends if the European Commission gave him a Â£50K grant for that too.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

Well said FD


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

Is this post meant to be in the Scottish referendum thread?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Is this post meant to be in the Scottish referendum thread?
		
Click to expand...

Err, fairly obviously not.

No point having a go at me on that score, my position on both issues is pretty consistent..... As regular readers will know! :lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Whilst I agree with your first part of this I disagree with the point of independence damaging Scotland's finances, I believe with the right structure in place Scotland would do just fine. Scotland has a lot more to offer than just oil.

In not pro-independence just to be clear though.
		
Click to expand...

I do not deny that Scotland has a lot more to offer than just oil.  However:

 The Single Market is much less important to Scotland than exports to Rest of UK. Exports to rUK are Â£48.5bn (64% of total) to the EU they are Â£11.6bn (15%) and to Rest of World Â£15.2bn (20%) and about 1% is unallocated.  The rUK is is by far Scotland's biggest trade partner so pinning it's colours to the EU mast is not a voyage that takes it away from troubled waters.  Also look at the trade with the ROTW, thats double the the amount with the EU. 

Scotland should think very hard before it considers creating barriers with it's largest markets.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 1, 2016)

Very strange that the same people who have said that there should never have been a vote on leaving the EU because the people weren't supplied with enough information are now wanting a further referendum on Scottish Independance even though the relevant facts on for and against have never been supplied.

Strange old world.


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I do not deny that Scotland has a lot more to offer than just oil.  However:

 The Single Market is much less important to Scotland than exports to Rest of UK. Exports to rUK are Â£48.5bn (64% of total) to the EU they are Â£11.6bn (15%) and to Rest of World Â£15.2bn (20%) and about 1% is unallocated.  The rUK is is by far Scotland's biggest trade partner so pinning it's colours to the EU mast is not a voyage that takes it away from troubled waters.  Also look at the trade with the ROTW, thats double the the amount with the EU. 

Scotland should think very hard before it considers creating barriers with it's largest markets.
		
Click to expand...

Can't disagree with any of that, the company I work for probably has in excess of 80% of its business in England


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Is this post meant to be in the Scottish referendum thread?
		
Click to expand...

Are you trying hard?


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Err, fairly obviously not.

No point having a go at me on that score, my position on both issues is pretty consistent..... As regular readers will know! :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Not having a go but some of it sounded more like a Scotland break from the UK rather than UK break from the EU.

The world is our oyster now and we are more outward looking than ever before! We still want to remain friends with the EU and trade with the EU nothing will change there.

Like friendly neighbours rather than all trying to live in the same house (with a landlord that nobody wants).


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I do not deny that Scotland has a lot more to offer than just oil.  However:

 The Single Market is much less important to Scotland than exports to Rest of UK. Exports to rUK are Â£48.5bn (64% of total) to the EU they are Â£11.6bn (15%) and to Rest of World Â£15.2bn (20%) and about 1% is unallocated.  The rUK is is by far Scotland's biggest trade partner so pinning it's colours to the EU mast is not a voyage that takes it away from troubled waters.  Also look at the trade with the ROTW, thats double the the amount with the EU. 

Scotland should think very hard before it considers creating barriers with it's largest markets.
		
Click to expand...

Can't speak for the actual numbers, but in general terms this point is correct.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

What a great and refreshing offer from New Zealand considering sending their trade envoys to assist the UK in setting up new trade deals around the world.   They have a lot of experience and have set up a good number of trade agreements around the world, we have left this to the EU so don't have many with their experiences.  When the going gets tough you find out who your real friends are, NZ and Oz have said they will act together to improve relations with the UK post Brexit.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 1, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			The world is our oyster now and we are more outward looking than ever before! We still want to remain friends with the EU and trade with the EU nothing will change there.
		
Click to expand...

That's certainly the positive spin the brexiters are trying to put on it. Frankly, that's not how I see it and not, I suspect, how the world at large sees it.

Time, of course, will tell.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 1, 2016)

I notice that now that the ftse 100 has totally recovered it's losses, the doom mongers have turned their attentions to the 250. Which never warrants a mention at other times.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I notice that now that the ftse 100 has totally recovered it's losses, the doom mongers have turned their attentions to the 250. Which never warrants a mention at other times.
		
Click to expand...

The ftse250 has been mentioned a number of times and even back to last Friday it was suggested that the real pointer to look at is the ftse250 

This was posted at the beginning of the week 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...king-at-the-ftse-250-and-not-the-ftse-100-to/

A lot of the markets will stabilise because right now trade hasn't changed.

The true indicator will be when negotiations start and deals are made and if article 50 triggered


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 1, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I notice that now that the ftse 100 has totally recovered it's losses, the doom mongers have turned their attentions to the 250. Which never warrants a mention at other times.
		
Click to expand...

We have not left yet ... This was a blip which was a warning. From here now they need to get negotiating ..


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

I wish currency would recover


----------



## freddielong (Jul 1, 2016)

Serious question, given that the referendum was on the cards the last time Scotland voted, why should they be entitled to have another vote, everytime the uk government does something the SNP doesn't like it cannot be a trigger for another vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			We have not left yet ... This was a blip which was a warning. From here now they need to get negotiating ..
		
Click to expand...

Were all doomed.  Give it a break


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 1, 2016)

Val said:



			I wish currency would recover
		
Click to expand...

Interest rates for savers ? Looking at a 10 year lock on the mortgages...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ftse250 has been mentioned a number of times and even back to last Friday it was suggested that the real pointer to look at is the ftse250 

This was posted at the beginning of the week 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...king-at-the-ftse-250-and-not-the-ftse-100-to/

A lot of the markets will stabilise because right now trade hasn't changed.

The true indicator will be when negotiations start and deals are made and if article 50 triggered
		
Click to expand...

I showed recently that the FTSE 250 is not in that bad shape now and better than it has been a number of times over the last 5 years, even earlier this year.
So now this cant be the harbinger of doom you will pick another one.  You really are the most negtaive and depressing person, try being a little optimistic, it does good things for your wellbeing.


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

Val said:



			I wish currency would recover
		
Click to expand...

British exporters don't


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			British exporters don't
		
Click to expand...

Depends if there suppliers are foreign ...


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Depends if there suppliers are foreign ...
		
Click to expand...

Seeing as "export" means sending to another country, that's pretty much a given!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I showed recently that the FTSE 250 is not in that bad shape now and better than it has been a number of times over the last 5 years, even earlier this year.
So now this cant be the harbinger of doom you will pick another one.  You really are the most negtaive and depressing person, try being a little optimistic, it does good things for your wellbeing.
		
Click to expand...

Do you actually read posts before replying ? 

What exactly was depressing about my post - 

Everyone you reply to now it's just full of insults towards them because you don't like their opinion.


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			British exporters don't
		
Click to expand...

We have different reasons, a weak currency is bad for the country


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			Seeing as "export" means sending to another country, that's pretty much a given!
		
Click to expand...

No I meant you make a good to export the constituent parts are foreign ... Meaning you incur costs to import and then pay a tariff to export... So your goods have an extra cost. But hey we can cut wages and make people work overtime without paying so we could catch that back ( sarcasm) ....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2016)

I heard the other day that any Scottish made exports that leave by an English port/airport are not recorded as Scottish exports.
Not sure if that is the case but if it is you can see perhaps why England and Wales are desperate to hang on to us.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you actually read posts before replying ? 

*What exactly was depressing about my post -* 

Everyone you reply to now it's just full of insults towards them because you don't like their opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Everything.  When it was shown the FTSE 100 had soared you decided it was the FTSE 250 that mattered, the FTSE 250 is now improved somewhat so you decide to deflect your doom something else, you do it all the time with depressing repetition.   You seem absolutely blind to any positive of Brexit even though you posted your support to make things work only a week ago.   I am obviously a supporter of the UK being an independent country but I have admitted there are risks and costs to achieving this but I have no truck with the whinging negative attitudes going on that cannot accept democracy and constantly talk down their country.  Place yourself where you like in that category.

You don't seem to get open debate where people have differing opinions and use the art of discussion to put their point of view and point out the flaws in others.  You are at will to disagree with me and mine but don't expect for one moment I will not defend it if I believe it to be right and you cannot persuade me otherwise. You of course are entitled to your own views and hopefully would take a similar stance.    What I find infuriating is when anyone (and I am not pointing this directly at you) is where someone suggests the opposing view is due to things like lack of education/low IQ/stupidity/age/social status/nationality and so forth.   When such methods are used I will not shy from responding in the way I do.

Hope that clears a few points up, if not Hey Ho looks like it's stopped raining here


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I heard the other day* that any Scottish made exports that leave by an English port/airport are not recorded as Scottish exports.
*Not sure if that is the case but* if it is you can see perhaps why England and Wales are desperate to hang on to us.
		
Click to expand...

When you have some proof then try again.   And I assure you I am not desperate.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I heard the other day that any Scottish made exports that leave by an English port/airport are not recorded as Scottish exports.
Not sure if that is the case but if it is you can see perhaps why *England and Wales are desperate to hang on to us.*

Click to expand...

I'm not sure they are any more. Possibly the politicians feel that way as they are desperate not to be seen as the ones that broke up the Union but lower down the feeling of "well if Scotland wants independence then let them have it and good riddance" seems to be growing at least anecdotally from people that I speak to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Everything.  When it was shown the FTSE 100 had soared you decided it was the FTSE 250 that mattered, the FTSE 250 is now improved somewhat so you decide to deflect your doom something else, you do it all the time with depressing repetition.   You seem absolutely blind to any positive of Brexit even though you posted your support to make things work only a week ago.   I am obviously a supporter of the UK being an independent country but I have admitted there are risks and costs to achieving this but I have no truck with the whinging negative attitudes going on that cannot accept democracy and constantly talk down their country.  Place yourself where you like in that category.

You don't seem to get open debate where people have differing opinions and use the art of discussion to put their point of view and point out the flaws in others.  You are at will to disagree with me and mine but don't expect for one moment I will not defend it if I believe it to be right and you cannot persuade me otherwise. You of course are entitled to your own views and hopefully would take a similar stance.    What I find infuriating is when anyone (and I am not pointing this directly at you) is where someone suggests the opposing view is due to things like lack of education/low IQ/stupidity/age/social status/nationality and so forth.   When such methods are used I will not shy from responding in the way I do.

Hope that clears a few points up, if not Hey Ho looks like it's stopped raining here 

Click to expand...

So you didn't read my post then 

Did you see what Mark wrote - he said that people now turned their attentions to the ftse250 and I just pointed out that people had mentioned it and posted a previously posted link of someone mentioning it previously - I don't deflect any doom anywhere - I even said in my post that the markets are now stabilised - oh no what doom that is 

Right now whenever someone posts a worry you are straight on to them dismissing their opinion - right now people are worried for their future and the future of their children - right now the positives for them are shouting out at them and they are rightly worried for the future of our nation and will say so - if you don't want to read that then just don't read the posts - ignore them. A thread was started asking the people who voted to leave what they would like to happen next and what they think will happen next - you burst into the thread again just dismissing anyone's fears ignoring what the OP was asking  - you don't know what will happen next - you are not in any place to dismiss people's fears or worries 

You and others need to stop throwing democracy into people's faces - as someone recently said democracy didn't start with this vote and didn't end with this vote - people have a democratic right to voice their fears and indeed fight to ensure the best for their future and if that means trying to keep us in the EU then they have that right to carry on fighting. It doesn't all just stop because of the vote - nothing is set in stone and everything is always up for discussion.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 1, 2016)

FTSE 250 is better off now than it was in January, very strange after all the current gloom. I seem to remember someone on here, who I presume knew what they were talking about informed us that the markets are no true indicator of how well the country is doing.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			FTSE 250 is better off now than it was in January, very strange after all the current gloom. I seem to remember someone on here, who I presume knew what they were talking about informed us that the markets are no true indicator of how well the country is doing.
		
Click to expand...

Lower Pound generally boosts UK Stock Indexes! Just check the graphs of both from Yesterday at around 4pm!

Stock markets, alone, are definitely not true indicator of country's health!


----------



## Fish (Jul 1, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I seem to remember someone on here, who I presume knew what they were talking about.
		
Click to expand...

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514; I'll have a glass of what you've been drinking &#127866;&#127866;


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you didn't read my post then 

Did you see what Mark wrote - he said that people now turned their attentions to the ftse250 and I just pointed out that people had mentioned it and posted a previously posted link of someone mentioning it previously - I don't deflect any doom anywhere - I even said in my post that the markets are now stabilised - oh no what doom that is 

Right now whenever someone posts a worry you are straight on to them dismissing their opinion - right now people are worried for their future and the future of their children - right now the positives for them are shouting out at them and they are rightly worried for the future of our nation and will say so - if you don't want to read that then just don't read the posts - ignore them. A thread was started asking the people who voted to leave what they would like to happen next and what they think will happen next - you burst into the thread again just dismissing anyone's fears ignoring what the OP was asking  - you don't know what will happen next - you are not in any place to dismiss people's fears or worries 

You and others need to stop throwing democracy into people's faces - as someone recently said democracy didn't start with this vote and didn't end with this vote - people have a democratic right to voice their fears and indeed fight to ensure the best for their future and if that means trying to keep us in the EU then they have that right to carry on fighting. It doesn't all just stop because of the vote - nothing is set in stone and everything is always up for discussion.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes! I read your post, good bit of wriggling in that.  Be in denial if you wish and carry on being a prophet of doom and despair but it's just as well that there are a few people with more positive views here that are able to give an alternate view.  All good debates have people that challenge the views of others and it's healthy debate to do so.  Challenge away if you wish but expect a challenge back.    If you would rather not read my opinions and views theres always the 'Ignore' function available to you. :thup:


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			&#62978;&#62978;&#62978; I'll have a glass of what you've been drinking &#62330;&#62330;
		
Click to expand...

Seems meths is the drink of choice.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 1, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Lower Pound generally boosts UK Stock Indexes! Just check the graphs of both from Yesterday at around 4pm!

Stock markets, alone, are definitely not true indicator of country's health!
		
Click to expand...

I have know idea about finances according to HID so I just stick to drawing my pocket money.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes! I read your post, good bit of wriggling in that.  Be in denial if you wish and carry on being a prophet of doom and despair but it's just as well that there are a few people with more positive views here that are able to give an alternate view.  All good debates have people that challenge the views of others and it's healthy debate to do so.  Challenge away if you wish but expect a challenge back.    If you would rather not read my opinions and views theres always the 'Ignore' function available to you. :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I have no problems reading your opinions - at times they are considered and measures but right now you are just berating and throwing cheap jibes at people because of their opinions. That's not challenging them or debating with them - that's insulting them - there is a clear difference. The "for the people that voted remain thread" is a clear example of you just posting to berate people for their opinion hence why the OP wanted it closed because you took it away from what he wanted to see be discussed


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I have *know idea* about finances according to HID so I just stick to drawing my pocket money.
		
Click to expand...

Freudian slip?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no problems reading your opinions - at times they are considered and measures but right now you are just berating and throwing cheap jibes at people because of their opinions. That's not challenging them or debating with them - that's insulting them - there is a clear difference. The "for the people that voted remain thread" is a clear example of you just posting to berate people for their opinion hence why the OP wanted it closed because you took it away from what he wanted to see be discussed
		
Click to expand...

OK, I will take some that but other than just berating and throwing cheap jibes, Iv'e been on the receiving end of many of them, I have put forward facts and figures and counter arguments which some people have replied to with insults and pettiness  so it's anything but one sided.


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, I will take some that but other than just berating and throwing cheap jibes, Iv'e been on the receiving end of many of them, I have put forward facts and figures and counter arguments which some people have replied to with insults and pettiness  so it's anything but one sided.
		
Click to expand...

Not often if ever I've defended you but I agree, you've countered with fact and fair play to you.

Still prone to the odd insult but.

Anyway, I think I'm going to be sick now


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 1, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Freudian slip? 

Click to expand...

No, English is my second language, I'm from Wales :lol: .


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Not often if ever I've defended you but I agree, you've countered with fact and fair play to you.

Still prone to the odd insult but.

Anyway, I think I'm going to be sick now 

Click to expand...

Thanks Val.  I don't believe we have had too may though, maybe the odd bit of jocularism some time back(excuse the pun)


----------



## IainP (Jul 1, 2016)

ADB said:



			I accept that i live in a prosperous part of the country and have plenty of liberal/middle class friends - but never had i misjudged a mood of a nation more than with that vote.
		
Click to expand...

That's the curious thing about this. Where I live, in every direction I travel through "well to do/affluent" villages, big houses, couple of big expensive vehicles on the drive. Whilst posters & signs are not a direct correlation to votes, the leave were massively more than remain, I'd guess 70-30. As it is Dave's constituency we were commenting that although remain may win (as polls were saying) that it could be a tad embarrassing for him. As it happens remain did come through by a few points, maybe the larger population areas pulled it through.
Caught the end of Ch 4 where Kristy Allsopp seemed to be making some decent points about the London media bubble etc


----------



## Val (Jul 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks Val.  I don't believe we have had too may though, maybe the odd bit of jocularism some time back(excuse the pun) 

Click to expand...

:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2016)

My authority - Waverley - and Surrey as a whole voted very clearly to Remain,  but then these are affluent areas with a relatively very small immigrant population.


----------



## IainP (Jul 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My authority - Waverley - and Surrey as a whole voted very clearly to Remain,  but then these are affluent areas with a relatively very small immigrant population.
		
Click to expand...

Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2016)

IainP said:



			Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.
		
Click to expand...

I dare say it was different things for different regions/areas. The northeast of England doesn't have a lot of immigration but its seen huge swathes of industry decimated. Obviously the Europe effect hasn't really helped them, and in some cases its just the opposite in terms of support for those industries. And large fishing ports, like Hull and Grimsby, seem to have voted because of how they feel the EU has interfered with their industry.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2016)

IainP said:



			Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.
		
Click to expand...

I'll guess that the majority of 'immigrants' in these areas you mention are most likely to be second homers or the retired from the SE ... and will be wealthier than the locals.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2016)

IainP said:



			Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.
		
Click to expand...

It's complicated. Many non European immigrants seemed to be suggesting that immigration is too high, I guess many European immigrants never had a vote although I believe Commonwealth ones did.  The areas you  mention tend to  have quite a lot of eastern european immigrants working in the hotel and leisure sectors but have fairly low numbers of Asian and Caribbean/Africans.   Maybe people in these areas are concerned that their traditional cultures will be threatened by high immigration.  Before anyone suggests otherwise I am just trying to answer the question not put forward a case for the reasons.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

IainP said:



			Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.
		
Click to expand...

It is a lot more complicated than that. The sats showed that in a lot of cases the remain vote tended to be higher where there was the higher levels of net migration. And the vote to leave was higher where you had lower levels of net migration. Leading to the conclusion that the fear of immigration was more of a factor than the reality in a lot of cases. But of course you can't say that it was a leave campaign based on fear.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/eu-referendum-high-immigration-correlate-11519838
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...migration-fears-were-paradoxical-but-decisive


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's complicated. Many non European immigrants seemed to be suggesting that immigration is too high, I guess many European immigrants never had a vote although I believe Commonwealth ones did.  The areas you  mention tend to  have quite a lot of eastern european immigrants working in the hotel and leisure sectors but have fairly low numbers of Asian and Caribbean/Africans.   *Maybe people in these areas are concerned that their traditional cultures will be threatened by high immigration*.  Before anyone suggests otherwise I am just trying to answer the question not put forward a case for the reasons.
		
Click to expand...

 If you are saying it is fear of immigrants as opposed to the reality, as these areas actually have very low levels of immigration, then we finally agree on something!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2016)

...and so I am coming to the conclusion that we are leaving the EU because of the fear of immigration.  

Never mind that despite leaving, all existing immigrants (being the cause of the issues the have caused - clearly) will be able to stay and so the issues will remain - and there is no guarantee of any sort that the annual immigrant level will reduce - and so unless government invests significantly in infrastructure the current issues will only get worse.  

How any long term economic miracle resulting from Brexit would improve that situation I do not see.  Besides - I heard on more than one occasion when challenged on how we require immigration to sustain current levels of economic growth - Brexiteers question the need for continual economic growth.

Got to find a way out of this shambles and make sure we do not leave.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2016)

IainP said:



			Clearly the immigrant population has been a big feature of the whole piece, but could it be more complex - does the Ilse of Anglesey, North Devon, Ilse of Wight, Cornwall have big immigrant populations? I genuinely don't know. London does and went remain.
		
Click to expand...

The IoW is full of retired Grockles [incommers].......do they count as immigrants.


----------



## IainP (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so I am coming to the conclusion that we are leaving the EU because of the fear of immigration.
		
Click to expand...

I am coming to a different conclusion. Clearly that is one factor, but trying to boil into one convenient sound bite (unfortunately as much main stream media appears to be) is not working for me.
There are areas/people that have experienced volumes of immigration at pace.
There will be people who view it from political/governance viewpoints.
There will be people who feel economically would be better in medium term.

Not debating the rights and wrongs - just that there are many facets here (probably more than listed).

Waverley apparently 41.6% for leave - all through fear?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

IainP said:



			I am coming to a different conclusion. Clearly that is one factor, but trying to boil into one convenient sound bite (unfortunately as much main stream media appears to be) is not working for me.
There are areas/people that have experienced volumes of immigration at pace.
There will be people who view it from political/governance viewpoints.
There will be people who feel economically would be better in medium term.

Not debating the rights and wrongs - just that there are many facets here (probably more than listed).

Waverley apparently 41.6% for leave - all through fear?
		
Click to expand...

That's my interpretation too. I don't subscribe the notion that it is only the old and ignorant that have voted out. I know some very bright older people who voted out.

One of them came up with an interesting thought. Is the EU, in its current federal state, the new Russia? A central ruling body that has given itself powers in an undemocratic way?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That's my interpretation too. I don't subscribe the notion that it is only the old and ignorant that have voted out. I know some very bright older people who voted out.

One of them came up with an interesting thought. Is the EU, in its current federal state, the new Russia? A central ruling body that has given itself powers in an undemocratic way?
		
Click to expand...

But then you get back to the old argument of in reality, how much 'power' does the EU have and exercise over us?  And we do elect MEPs. And the country is allegedly currently run by a party that got less that 25% of the available vote. And there are parties such as UKIP that had large number of votes but do not have any MPs. 

One persons definition of 'democracy' and 'powers' may well be different to anothers.  Which I am sure has been debated one or twice on here.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But then you get back to the old argument of in reality, how much 'power' does the EU have and exercise over us?  And we do elect MEPs. And the country is allegedly currently run by a party that got less that 25% of the available vote. And there are parties such as UKIP that had large number of votes but do not have any MPs. 

One persons definition of 'democracy' and 'powers' may well be different to anothers.  Which I am sure has been debated one or twice on here.

Click to expand...

But that's a "shallow" argument for one of "an advanced intellect." [winky smiley]

I'm inclined to agree with the suggestion that its the new Russia, albeit a long way from communism. Whether we elect MEP's, and what difference they make is, as you say, another question. Sure someone posted up that the UK opposed the last 55 laws the EU passed... kinda suggests it doesn't really do what we want. Anyway, that's been done to death.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But that's a "shallow" argument for one of "an advanced intellect." [winky smiley]

I'm inclined to agree with the suggestion that its the new Russia, albeit a long way from communism. Whether we elect MEP's, and what difference they make is, as you say, another question. *Sure someone posted up that the UK opposed the last 55 laws the EU passed... kinda suggests it doesn't really do what we want*. Anyway, that's been done to death.
		
Click to expand...

I also read that in reality we only objected to 2% of all the EU laws/directives, the vast majority we just adopted with little fuss. Yes we did adopt quite a few (although the exact percentage is hotly debated) of EU regulations, but in a lot of cases it saved us from the process of having to do them ourselves. Some people may see that as us losing our sovereignty, others may see it a practical solution and a small price to pay for access to the single market. 

But I am sure both sides can twist use stats to prove their point.  As I probably have just done.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 2, 2016)

I can't remember which thread it was on but someone posted last night that activating Article 50 might require a vote in the HOC. There are obviously more MPs that were in favour of Remain than those for Leave. Would you expect them to vote with their beliefs and in that case overwhelmingly reject leaving or do you think that they should vote in line with how their constituents voted? 

For example an MP that supports Remain but represents an area that voted Leave. Should that MP vote Remain or Leave if it came to a vote in the HOC? And obviously vice versa. I can imagine that an MP that voted to Remain despite his constituents voting to Leave would lose a lot of votes at the next election, but I suspect that in the opposite case with an MP voting to Leave when constituents voted to Remain would lose even more votes. Thoughts?


----------



## ger147 (Jul 2, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't remember which thread it was on but someone posted last night that activating Article 50 might require a vote in the HOC. There are obviously more MPs that were in favour of Remain than those for Leave. Would you expect them to vote with their beliefs and in that case overwhelmingly reject leaving or do you think that they should vote in line with how their constituents voted? 

For example an MP that supports Remain but represents an area that voted Leave. Should that MP vote Remain or Leave if it came to a vote in the HOC? And obviously vice versa. I can imagine that an MP that voted to Remain despite his constituents voting to Leave would lose a lot of votes at the next election, but I suspect that in the opposite case with an MP voting to Leave when constituents voted to Remain would lose even more votes. Thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

No doubt the vote will be whipped so they will vote as their respective parties tell them to.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			...
One of them came up with an interesting thought. Is the EU, in its current federal state, the new Russia? A central ruling body that has given itself powers in an undemocratic way?
		
Click to expand...

As long as the concept of subsidiarity - as embodied in the Maastricht Treaty - is upheld, then the EU cannot achieve what is apparently the fear stated above! The application of that concept can be challenged by any member state - or even a single person - ultimately in the Court of Justice of the EU!

Here's the 'official' line on this extremely important concept! http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ftu/pdf/en/FTU_1.2.2.pdf

Btw. I don't believe there's a 'universal definition' of '(un)democratic'! Any law passed by a UK government that wasn't specifically referred to in the ruling party's manifesto can be deemed 'undemocratic'! The Swiss have frequent referendums to overcome such issues!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't remember which thread it was on but someone posted last night that activating Article 50 might require a vote in the HOC. There are obviously more MPs that were in favour of Remain than those for Leave. Would you expect them to vote with their beliefs and in that case overwhelmingly reject leaving or do you think that they should vote in line with how their constituents voted? 

For example an MP that supports Remain but represents an area that voted Leave. Should that MP vote Remain or Leave if it came to a vote in the HOC? And obviously vice versa. I can imagine that an MP that voted to Remain despite his constituents voting to Leave would lose a lot of votes at the next election, but I suspect that in the opposite case with an MP voting to Leave when constituents voted to Remain would lose even more votes. Thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I read there are about 150 MPs that support leave, the rest don't. As for needing a vote then I think legally we are in uncharted territories here. Some legal brains say you do, some say not. And may be a difference between what is morally right (listen to the result of the referendum) and what is legally right (who knows.....).  Bit like penalizing DJ for the ball moving when he did not touch it on silly fast greens and telling him after the round.  Legally OK, morally, really?   

There is also an argument that parliament is legally bound to do what it thinks is best for the nation.  And in this case as the majority of MPs do not think this is best for the nation if the 150 stat is to be believed.  I suspect this may well get held up in the courts to be honest. Which if I was being cynical may be a convenient way of whoever is running the country at the time to avoid being seen as the person that triggered article 50, as they could blame the courts decision. They were only following legal instructions. Assuming it doesn't go all the way to the EU court. As that would be funny.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't remember which thread it was on but someone posted last night that activating Article 50 might require a vote in the HOC. There are obviously more MPs that were in favour of Remain than those for Leave. Would you expect them to vote with their beliefs and in that case overwhelmingly reject leaving or do you think that they should vote in line with how their constituents voted? 

For example an MP that supports Remain but represents an area that voted Leave. Should that MP vote Remain or Leave if it came to a vote in the HOC? And obviously vice versa. I can imagine that an MP that voted to Remain despite his constituents voting to Leave would lose a lot of votes at the next election, but I suspect that in the opposite case with an MP voting to Leave when constituents voted to Remain would lose even more votes. Thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

The issue is whether simply activating Article 50 (notification of intention to leave) requires a vote or whether the consequences of applying A50 do. Certainly, if/when UK leaves, then the 1972 European Communities Act would need to be repealed, but that needn't happen immediately!


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Change may or may not have been needed but the change we have voted for is, IMO, completely the wrong direction of travel.

I do think we'll be worse off economically, but this vote was never about the economics for me. It was about being an outward looking, good global citizen for the benefit of all mankind. Instead we have turned in on ourselves, stuck two fingers up at our friends and neighbours with whom we should be working for a better future and then essentially descended into farce as two spoiled public schoolboys trash the country as a side effect of their long running petty rivalry. Oh and then both of them run away to let others pick up the mess.

As a country, we are a disgrace and I am ashamed and embarrassed by the whole sorry mess.
		
Click to expand...

The UK is not insular or inward looking. We trade, have immigration, emigration and cooperation with the world. Leaving the EU is not sticking two fingers up at our continental neighbours. There is no evidence that the UK doesn't want to trade, cooperate, have emigration and immigration with the countries of Europe. 

The problem is not the UK. The problem is the EU.  

The EU does not allow free trade. It is very unlikely to allow an independent UK to trade freely with European countries. They will insist we pay a fee for the privilege of trading with other European countries... that's not us doing that  They will restrict access to their union... that's not us doing that. Free movement of people is their ridiculous trading restriction... not ours. It is not the UK that is inward looking or insular, it is the EU.

Do you think the trade deal the EU is trying to make with the USA is going to include them adopting EU laws and the free movement of people?

The reason they can't give us the same deal as the USA is that it will be obvious that as a country you are better off not in the EU. 

The reason European countries are EU members is because the EU makes it almost impossible not to be. The EU is not good for Europe or the rest of the world. It is just a hideous organisation that exists because it exists. It's existence relies on people believing it is necessary and it isn't.  If it didn't exist we would simply deal with individual countries as we do with the rest of the world. It is authoritarian, it dictates social practice, it is intolerant of different practices and you can't leave with impunity. It is a fascist cartel.

All the argument is about whether the UK can survive as an independent nation. It is obvious it could if the EU didn't exist. The EU is the only thing that makes it difficult. They will make it difficult because their own meaningless existence depends on it. Do Germany want to sell us cars? Do you think they would like free trade with us? Do you think they would insist on free movement of people between our countries for this? I think all European countries would want to trade with us without any suggestion of sharing social policies or practices. The reason they can't is because the fascist cartel dictates that they can't. 

The UK should leave and then state it will trade freely with EU countries. Any deal they offer that includes their social polices should be rejected. Then the countries of Europe might see that the EU does not work in their best interest. Insisting we allow free movement of people to trade with European countries is not in the best interest of the individual countries. We should take the huge risk to get rid of the EU.

The EU is not a socialist organisation. It has some very rich countries and some very poor countries. There is nothing socialist about that. The free movement of people simply allows rich countries to abuse the disadvantaged. The UK has millions of foreign people living on the poverty line in slums and ghettos of our cities. We are not helping these people, we are exploiting them. Taking fit and skilled people from eastern European countries isn't helping their countries, it's helping ours. These people aren't here because they wanted to leave their home land to live in slums and be racially abused. They are here because they have no choice. And we happily exploit their situation. 

This has helped make the UK wealthy but thankfully it has to stop. Mass immigration has turned normally liberal  but patriotic Brits into racists. Continuing this policy will result in political and civil unrest and eventually civil war. We must either become less wealthy or find another way to create wealth.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			The UK is not insular or inward looking. We trade, have immigration, emigration and cooperation with the world. Leaving the EU is not sticking two fingers up at our continental neighbours. There is no evidence that the UK doesn't want to trade, cooperate, have emigration and immigration with the countries of Europe. 

The problem is not the UK. The problem is the EU.  

The EU does not allow free trade. It is very unlikely to allow an independent UK to trade freely with European countries. They will insist we pay a fee for the privilege of trading with other European countries... that's not us doing that  They will restrict access to their union... that's not us doing that. Free movement of people is their ridiculous trading restriction... not ours. It is not the UK that is inward looking or insular, it is the EU.

Do you think the trade deal the EU is trying to make with the USA is going to include them adopting EU laws and the free movement of people?

The reason they can't give us the same deal as the USA is that it will be obvious that as a country you are better off not in the EU. 

The reason European countries are EU members is because the EU makes it almost impossible not to be. The EU is not good for Europe or the rest of the world. It is just a hideous organisation that exists because it exists. It's existence relies on people believing it is necessary and it isn't.  If it didn't exist we would simply deal with individual countries as we do with the rest of the world. It is authoritarian, it dictates social practice, it is intolerant of different practices and you can't leave with impunity. It is a fascist cartel.

All the argument is about whether the UK can survive as an independent nation. It is obvious it could if the EU didn't exist. The EU is the only thing that makes it difficult. They will make it difficult because their own meaningless existence depends on it. Do Germany want to sell us cars? Do you think they would like free trade with us? Do you think they would insist on free movement of people between our countries for this? I think all European countries would want to trade with us without any suggestion of sharing social policies or practices. The reason they can't is because the fascist cartel dictates that they can't. 

The UK should leave and then state it will trade freely with EU countries. Any deal they offer that includes their social polices should be rejected. Then the countries of Europe might see that the EU does not work in their best interest. Insisting we allow free movement of people to trade with European countries is not in the best interest of the individual countries. We should take the huge risk to get rid of the EU.

The EU is not a socialist organisation. It has some very rich countries and some very poor countries. There is nothing socialist about that. The free movement of people simply allows rich countries to abuse the disadvantaged. The UK has millions of foreign people living on the poverty line in slums and ghettos of our cities. We are not helping these people, we are exploiting them. Taking fit and skilled people from eastern European countries isn't helping their countries, it's helping ours. These people aren't here because they wanted to leave their home land to live in slums and be racially abused. They are here because they have no choice. And we happily exploit their situation. 

This has helped make the UK wealthy but thankfully it has to stop. Mass immigration has turned normally liberal  but patriotic Brits into racists. Continuing this policy will result in political and civil unrest and eventually civil war. We must either become less wealthy or find another way to create wealth.
		
Click to expand...

A fantastic post.


----------



## Fish (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			The UK is not insular or inward looking. We trade, have immigration, emigration and cooperation with the world. Leaving the EU is not sticking two fingers up at our continental neighbours. There is no evidence that the UK doesn't want to trade, cooperate, have emigration and immigration with the countries of Europe. 

The problem is not the UK. The problem is the EU.  

The EU does not allow free trade. It is very unlikely to allow an independent UK to trade freely with European countries. They will insist we pay a fee for the privilege of trading with other European countries... that's not us doing that  They will restrict access to their union... that's not us doing that. Free movement of people is their ridiculous trading restriction... not ours. It is not the UK that is inward looking or insular, it is the EU.

Do you think the trade deal the EU is trying to make with the USA is going to include them adopting EU laws and the free movement of people?

The reason they can't give us the same deal as the USA is that it will be obvious that as a country you are better off not in the EU. 

The reason European countries are EU members is because the EU makes it almost impossible not to be. The EU is not good for Europe or the rest of the world. It is just a hideous organisation that exists because it exists. It's existence relies on people believing it is necessary and it isn't.  If it didn't exist we would simply deal with individual countries as we do with the rest of the world. It is authoritarian, it dictates social practice, it is intolerant of different practices and you can't leave with impunity. It is a fascist cartel.

All the argument is about whether the UK can survive as an independent nation. It is obvious it could if the EU didn't exist. The EU is the only thing that makes it difficult. They will make it difficult because their own meaningless existence depends on it. Do Germany want to sell us cars? Do you think they would like free trade with us? Do you think they would insist on free movement of people between our countries for this? I think all European countries would want to trade with us without any suggestion of sharing social policies or practices. The reason they can't is because the fascist cartel dictates that they can't. 

The UK should leave and then state it will trade freely with EU countries. Any deal they offer that includes their social polices should be rejected. Then the countries of Europe might see that the EU does not work in their best interest. Insisting we allow free movement of people to trade with European countries is not in the best interest of the individual countries. We should take the huge risk to get rid of the EU.

The EU is not a socialist organisation. It has some very rich countries and some very poor countries. There is nothing socialist about that. The free movement of people simply allows rich countries to abuse the disadvantaged. The UK has millions of foreign people living on the poverty line in slums and ghettos of our cities. We are not helping these people, we are exploiting them. Taking fit and skilled people from eastern European countries isn't helping their countries, it's helping ours. These people aren't here because they wanted to leave their home land to live in slums and be racially abused. They are here because they have no choice. And we happily exploit their situation. 

This has helped make the UK wealthy but thankfully it has to stop. Mass immigration has turned normally liberal  but patriotic Brits into racists. Continuing this policy will result in political and civil unrest and eventually civil war. We must either become less wealthy or find another way to create wealth.
		
Click to expand...

&#128077; Great post Sir


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

And if the population decides not to accept becoming less wealthy or cannot agree a new way to create wealth?

I agree that our current system is unworkable in the long term. I've been saying that exact thing for 2 years. We either learn to live with long lasting contraction of our markets or we adopt a new social and economic structure that creates wealth in equitable and responsible way. Or, we carry on as before and wait for someone else to lead the way.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you are saying it is fear of immigrants as opposed to the reality, as these areas actually have very low levels of immigration, then we finally agree on something!
		
Click to expand...

Fear is the wrong word, concern is better.   I don't think people are generally frightened of immigrants.  People tend to have a number of issues appertaining to immigration, some are concerning numbers and how this affects their access to services, some are to do with wages and how their pay has been depressed especially in the lower pay bands, some is to do with the effects of multiple cultures in their communities and how their diversity; rather than being something they should celebrate; creates a lack of social cohesion and a division, that division cannot always be blamed on the indigenous  community either.   Immigration is a bit like eating sugar, we need an amount of it to be healthy, but a lot of it over a short period is bad for us and has undesirable side effects.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



*And if the population decides not to accept becoming less wealthy or cannot agree a new way to create wealth?*

I agree that our current system is unworkable in the long term. I've been saying that exact thing for 2 years. We either learn to live with long lasting contraction of our markets or we adopt a new social and economic structure that creates wealth in equitable and responsible way. Or, we carry on as before and wait for someone else to lead the way.
		
Click to expand...

The population has adopted a view they are entitled to be wealthy and thats a myth whether we are in the EU or not.  Greece is a very good example of this.


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The population has adopted a view they are entitled to be wealthy and thats a myth whether we are in the EU or not.  Greece is a very good example of this.
		
Click to expand...

We have developed a "throwaway" culture. We dispose of perfectly workable goods, in a quest to stay relevant and significant. We display our wealth like a badge of honour, little caring that it is built on exploitation of the third world. This culture has been force fed to us by a political elite, financed by big business, all in the name of continuing growth. Any attempt to move away from that model will be met with significant resistance. 

* All typed on an iPhone, whilst watching the cricket on Sky, on a large flat screen Sony TV!!!!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			We have developed a "throwaway" culture. We dispose of perfectly workable goods, in a quest to stay relevant and significant. We display our wealth like a badge of honour, little caring that it is built on exploitation of the third world. This culture has been force fed to us by a political elite, financed by big business, all in the name of continuing growth. Any attempt to move away from that model will be met with significant resistance. 

* All typed on an iPhone, whilst watching the cricket on Sky, on a large flat screen Sony TV!!!!
		
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this


----------



## Fish (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			We have developed a "throwaway" culture. We dispose of perfectly workable goods, in a quest to stay relevant and significant. We display our wealth like a badge of honour, little caring that it is built on exploitation of the third world. This culture has been force fed to us by a political elite, financed by big business, all in the name of continuing growth. Any attempt to move away from that model will be met with significant resistance. 

* All typed on an iPhone, whilst watching the cricket on Sky, on a large flat screen Sony TV!!!!
		
Click to expand...

In the bedroom whilst the kids watch TV in their bedroom and hid watches Eastenders downstairs on the latest curve TV in HD with 2 cars out the front


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I tend to agree with this
		
Click to expand...

Which goes to show that if you discuss something for long enough, you'll eventually realize that you share a similar viewpoint :thup:



Fish said:



			In the bedroom whilst the kids watch TV in their bedroom and hid watches Eastenders downstairs on the latest curve TV in HD with 2 cars out the front
		
Click to expand...

 The only TV rule in my house. No TV's in the bedroom. Or consoles etc. The boy has a computer for his schoolwork, but if you want to watch TV then you do it downstairs.


----------



## Fish (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Which goes to show that if you discuss something for long enough, you'll eventually realize that you share a similar viewpoint :thup:


 The only TV rule in my house. No TV's in the bedroom. Or consoles etc. The boy has a computer for his schoolwork, but if you want to watch TV then you do it downstairs.
		
Click to expand...

Do you lock them in the coal shed also, and if they don't eat their meat they don't get any pudding &#128514;&#128514;


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			The UK is not insular or inward looking. We trade, have immigration, emigration and cooperation with the world. Leaving the EU is not sticking two fingers up at our continental neighbours. There is no evidence that the UK doesn't want to trade, cooperate, have emigration and immigration with the countries of Europe. 

The problem is not the UK. The problem is the EU.  

The EU does not allow free trade. It is very unlikely to allow an independent UK to trade freely with European countries. They will insist we pay a fee for the privilege of trading with other European countries... that's not us doing that  They will restrict access to their union... that's not us doing that. Free movement of people is their ridiculous trading restriction... not ours. It is not the UK that is inward looking or insular, it is the EU.

Do you think the trade deal the EU is trying to make with the USA is going to include them adopting EU laws and the free movement of people?

The reason they can't give us the same deal as the USA is that it will be obvious that as a country you are better off not in the EU. 

The reason European countries are EU members is because the EU makes it almost impossible not to be. The EU is not good for Europe or the rest of the world. It is just a hideous organisation that exists because it exists. It's existence relies on people believing it is necessary and it isn't.  If it didn't exist we would simply deal with individual countries as we do with the rest of the world. It is authoritarian, it dictates social practice, it is intolerant of different practices and you can't leave with impunity. It is a fascist cartel.

All the argument is about whether the UK can survive as an independent nation. It is obvious it could if the EU didn't exist. The EU is the only thing that makes it difficult. They will make it difficult because their own meaningless existence depends on it. Do Germany want to sell us cars? Do you think they would like free trade with us? Do you think they would insist on free movement of people between our countries for this? I think all European countries would want to trade with us without any suggestion of sharing social policies or practices. The reason they can't is because the fascist cartel dictates that they can't. 

The UK should leave and then state it will trade freely with EU countries. Any deal they offer that includes their social polices should be rejected. Then the countries of Europe might see that the EU does not work in their best interest. Insisting we allow free movement of people to trade with European countries is not in the best interest of the individual countries. We should take the huge risk to get rid of the EU.

The EU is not a socialist organisation. It has some very rich countries and some very poor countries. There is nothing socialist about that. The free movement of people simply allows rich countries to abuse the disadvantaged. The UK has millions of foreign people living on the poverty line in slums and ghettos of our cities. We are not helping these people, we are exploiting them. Taking fit and skilled people from eastern European countries isn't helping their countries, it's helping ours. These people aren't here because they wanted to leave their home land to live in slums and be racially abused. They are here because they have no choice. And we happily exploit their situation. 

This has helped make the UK wealthy but thankfully it has to stop. Mass immigration has turned normally liberal  but patriotic Brits into racists. Continuing this policy will result in political and civil unrest and eventually civil war. We must either become less wealthy or find another way to create wealth.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting how people can have such diametrically opposite views. I'm actually chuckling and shaking my head while reading this. Although I accept you are sincere and entitled to your opinion.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting how people can have such diametrically opposite views. I'm actually chuckling and shaking my head while reading this. Although I accept you are sincere and entitled to your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

It's not only his opinion though, many of us share it completely.   Maybe you do need to question your views


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not only his opinion though, many of us share it completely.   Maybe you do need to question your views 

Click to expand...

And many share my take on things. Fed up with the circular arguments though so you crack on and believe whatever nonsense you like.


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Interesting how people can have such diametrically opposite views. I'm actually chuckling and shaking my head while reading this. Although I accept you are sincere and entitled to your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

You have to be able to accept your own beliefs may be wrong to here others beliefs without chuckling and shaking your head. And most people can't.


----------



## ger147 (Jul 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And many share my take on things. Fed up with the circular arguments though so you crack on and believe whatever nonsense you like. 

Click to expand...

That's a good suggestion as it seems to have worked for you.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2016)

The Brexit Plan

http://thebrexitplan.com

:thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			And many share my take on things. Fed up with the circular arguments though so you crack on and believe whatever nonsense you like. 

Click to expand...

Break the circle then.   I would never be so crass to suggest your opinion was nonsense though, only different.  Vive le difference.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			We have developed a "throwaway" culture. We dispose of perfectly workable goods, in a quest to stay relevant and significant. We display our wealth like a badge of honour, little caring that it is built on exploitation of the third world. This culture has been force fed to us by a political elite, financed by big business, all in the name of continuing growth. Any attempt to move away from that model will be met with significant resistance. 

* All typed on an iPhone, whilst watching the cricket on Sky, on a large flat screen Sony TV!!!!
		
Click to expand...

As part of my English Highers in 1976 I wrote a piece about big corporations and planned obsolescence. And that industry needs it to allow it to grow. I argued that you didn't have to grow, only to sustain a viable society. I got an 'F' and a roasting from the English teacher for being a communist.

Being a bit wiser, older really, I'd say that growth still isn't needed but new innovations are. It isn't an extra TV, it's a better TV.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			You have to be able to accept your own beliefs may be wrong to here others beliefs without chuckling and shaking your head. And most people can't.
		
Click to expand...

Have you looked in the mirror lately?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Break the circle then.   I would never be so crass to suggest your opinion was nonsense though, only different.  Vive le difference.
		
Click to expand...

That's pretty tame compared to some of the insults you've dished out on this thread. It's an emotive subject, though, so I don't want to be too hard on you. Anyway, I'm done arguing for now. The vote didn't go the way I'd like but let's see what happens when we get a new pm.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			As part of my English Highers in 1976 I wrote a piece about big corporations and planned obsolescence. And that industry needs it to allow it to grow. I argued that you didn't have to grow, only to sustain a viable society. I got an 'F' and a roasting from the English teacher for being a communist.

Being a bit wiser, older really, I'd say that growth still isn't needed but new innovations are. It isn't an extra TV, it's a better TV.
		
Click to expand...

That's actually an example of the obscene way in which some supposed 'teachers' can actually be 'indoctrinaters'! Their role should be to teach HOW to think, not WHAT to think!

And, btw, I believe that growth is essential - because business is competitive! whether or not the growth of a particular company or sector is beneficial for society in general depends on how that growth is utilised!


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Have you looked in the mirror lately? 

Click to expand...

My own abilities, or lack of, are irrelevant to my statement.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll guess that the majority of 'immigrants' in these areas you mention are most likely to be second homers or the retired from the SE ... and will be wealthier than the locals.
		
Click to expand...

North Devon has little in the way of immigrants, had a high turnout and went for the exit.


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's actually an example of the obscene way in which some supposed 'teachers' can actually be 'indoctrinaters'! Their role should be to teach HOW to think, not WHAT to think!
		
Click to expand...

A teacher wrote in my school report â€œJohn asks too many questionsâ€ 40 years later I still don't know whether to laugh or cry. I have often argued that rational thinking should be taught in schools but the faith schools are against it for some reason.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			You have to be able to accept your own beliefs may be wrong to here others beliefs without chuckling and shaking your head. And most people can't.
		
Click to expand...

But she's not wrong, and neither are you. It's about a choice of lifestyle. Some lifestyle choices come at a cost. It may well be that the lifestyle choice of being outside the EU costs more or less, financially and politically.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			A teacher wrote in my school report â€œJohn asks too many questionsâ€ 40 years later I still don't know whether to laugh or cry. I have often argued that rational thinking should be taught in schools but the faith schools are against it for some reason.
		
Click to expand...

Strangely enough, it was a faith school.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 2, 2016)

Just to get one thing straight. The government have got to follow through with brexit, whatever the Stay lobby have to say about it. Anything else would be the death of democracy in this country. In other words we would be on the road to becoming a dictatorship. So, one way or another it's going to happen. Bleating on about certain sections who could'nt be bothered to vote won't wash.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just to get one thing straight. The government have got to follow through with brexit, whatever the Stay lobby have to say about it. Anything else would be the death of democracy in this country. In other words we would be on the road to becoming a dictatorship. So, one way or another it's going to happen. Bleating on about certain sections who could'nt be bothered to vote won't wash.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that's strictly the case 

Lots of issues that have to be dealt with first 

Talks of bills in the Parliament and MPs voting and deals - lots of legal issues to look at first and processes. 

Right now the vote was an opinion poll with no legal obligation to follow it through - a change of PM and indeed a General Election could change things , deals with the EU could change things 

Going blindly into something isn't democracy - it's lunacy. 

If we stayed in the EU for any reason it certainly wouldn't be a dictatorship nor would it be the death of democracy.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just to get one thing straight.* The government have got to follow through with brexit*, whatever the Stay lobby have to say about it. Anything else would be the death of democracy in this country. In other words we would be on the road to becoming a dictatorship. So, one way or another it's going to happen. Bleating on about certain sections who could'nt be bothered to vote won't wash.
		
Click to expand...

Morally probably yes. Legally, I suspect we are about to find out.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

Nice to know that some consider the referendum was just an opinion poll. I must have missed that bit on the voting slip.

How was it worded, "In your opinion should the UK stay or leave the UK". Nope still don't remember that bit.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just to get one thing straight. The government have got to follow through with brexit, whatever the Stay lobby have to say about it. Anything else would be the death of democracy in this country. In other words we would be on the road to becoming a dictatorship. So, one way or another it's going to happen. Bleating on about certain sections who could'nt be bothered to vote won't wash.
		
Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Morally probably yes. Legally, I suspect we are about to find out.
		
Click to expand...

I voted Remain but totally agree with Mark. I suspect there'll be waffle and we'll stay in. At that point I won't vote in another election or referendum. Democracy includes following through on a result. By all means campaign afterwards for change but honour the principle of democracy.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Nice to know that some consider the referendum was just an opinion poll. I must have missed that bit on the voting slip.

How was it worded, "In your opinion should the UK stay or leave the UK". Nope still don't remember that bit.
		
Click to expand...

The stayers didn't start it. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I voted Remain but totally agree with Mark*. I suspect there'll be waffle *and we'll stay in. At that point I won't vote in another election or referendum. Democracy includes following through on a result. By all means campaign afterwards for change but honour the principle of democracy.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect it will go to a legal ruling. No idea what they will say.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The stayers didn't start it. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12

Click to expand...

I dont really care who started it. Whichever way it went it was a childish argument and one that any sane person would kick into touch.

The fact that some want to continue to clutch at straws is rather sad IMHO.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect it will go to a legal ruling. No idea what they will say.
		
Click to expand...

The legality of it is very clear. The result isn't legally binding. But as you say, morally...


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 2, 2016)

We are in the position we are because those in government have been hard of hearing...

And, the hope is they continue to adopt this attitude...

Hey ho that'll solve everything...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The legality of it is very clear. The result isn't legally binding. But as you say, morally...
		
Click to expand...

But there is an argument made by some that morally there were so many lies, deceptions and untruths told that it's a bit late to claim the moral high ground. But I couldn't possibly comment.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But there is an argument made by some that morally there were so many lies, deceptions and untruths told that it's a bit late to claim the moral high ground. But I couldn't possibly comment.
		
Click to expand...

I presume you mean from both sides.


----------



## IainP (Jul 2, 2016)

Is the assumption that a 2nd referendum would be a comfortable remain vote?

My gut feel is many knew what they were going to do before the campaigning started.
Think it is naive to not acknowledge"lies" from all sides - that's politicians for you.
Agree some of those wavering before would switch based on the 48 hrs after result 1. But reckon as many would go the other way on the "disappointed with democracy" angle.

All speculation of course &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

IainP said:



			Is the assumption that a 2nd referendum would be a comfortable remain vote?

My gut feel is many knew what they were going to do before the campaigning started.
Think it is naive to not acknowledge"lies" from all sides - that's politicians for you.
Agree some of those wavering before would switch based on the 48 hrs after result 1. But reckon as many would go the other way on the "disappointed with democracy" angle.

All speculation of course &#128522;
		
Click to expand...

I would guess it would be to stay as I suspect many of the younger generation who previously could not arsed to vote would come out. Where as the increase in votes by the older generation would not be much. And statistically I think that would swing it. But that could be complete codswallop.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But there is an argument made by some that morally there were so many lies, deceptions and untruths told that it's a bit late to claim the moral high ground. But I couldn't possibly comment.
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			I presume you mean from both sides.
		
Click to expand...

BBC's Andrew Neil did a superb demolition of George Osbourne's lies about the costs. 

The lies were from both sides.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I presume you mean from both sides.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly, most of the impact will be in the long term anyway, but from what has transpired in the short term it is a lot easier to pick lots of holes in the leavers main claims regarding controlling immigration and the weekly payment to the EU. IMHO.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

IainP said:



			Is the assumption that a 2nd referendum would be a comfortable remain vote?
		
Click to expand...

Unlike some countries who have adopted the "we will keep doing this until you vote the way we want you to" I hope as a country we are stronger than that.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			but from what has transpired in the short term it is a lot easier to pick lots of holes in the leavers main claims
		
Click to expand...

Only by a remainer  obviously a leaver wouldn't sink so low


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Nice to know that some consider the referendum was just an opinion poll. I must have missed that bit on the voting slip.

How was it worded, "In your opinion should the UK stay or leave the UK". Nope still don't remember that bit.
		
Click to expand...

Totally right. Having a referendum and then ignoring the result would be outrageous.

Claiming people were tricked by lies is also cobblers. Huge whoppers were told by both sides, they often are at elections, but we have to see through that as voters. One side won, one lost. Those who lost need to accept it and move on.


----------



## IainP (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Possibly, most of the impact will be in the long term anyway, but from what has transpired in the short term it is a lot easier to pick lots of holes in the leavers main claims regarding controlling immigration and the weekly payment to the EU. IMHO.
		
Click to expand...

I can guess what you are referring to, and I won't be trying to defend it. Suppose though they wouldn't formally be untrue until after the actual leave which (if happens) is a way away. That was the problem with most of the rhetoric IMO.
In interest of balance, I must have blinked and missed the emergency budget


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally right. Having a referendum and then ignoring the result would be outrageous.

Claiming people were tricked by lies is also cobblers. Huge whoppers were told by both sides, they often are at elections, but we have to see through that as voters. One side won, one lost. Those who lost need to accept it and move on.
		
Click to expand...

The vast majority of those who lost have accepted it, but it's impossible to move on until the Governments intentions are made clear. The Conservatives could have ended all the protests almost immediately by activating article 50 straight after the referendum. By prevaricating, and in some cases showing outright cowardice, they have allowed large doubts about the future of the U.K./EU to bloom.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



*The vast majority of those who lost have accepted it*, but it's impossible to move on until the Governments intentions are made clear. The Conservatives could have ended all the protests almost immediately by activating article 50 straight after the referendum. By prevaricating, and in some cases showing outright cowardice, they have allowed large doubts about the future of the U.K./EU to bloom.
		
Click to expand...

How do you actually know this?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally right. Having a referendum and then ignoring the result would be outrageous.

Claiming people were tricked by lies is also cobblers. Huge whoppers were told by both sides, they often are at elections, but we have to see through that as voters. One side won, one lost. Those who lost need to accept it and move on.
		
Click to expand...

From what I've read the referendum was advisory, not mandatory.  And this is the legal difference between an election, a mandatory and an advisory referendum. 

http://www.uk-engage.org/2013/05/what-is-the-difference-between-an-election-and-a-referendum/

So I think the legal argument is that if it was an advisory referendum then the government could legally ignore it.  Probably would have made sense to tell the electorate that beforehand though as I expect many people thought they were voting in an election type situation..


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How do you actually know this?
		
Click to expand...

Because the vast majority of are rational people who can accept the result of a national vote without resorting to the age old tactic of "crying and taking their ball home"..... 

Its up up to the politicians and "interested parties" to decide the way forward now.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



*Because the vast majority of are rational people who can accept the result of a national *vote without resorting to the age old tactic of "crying and taking their ball home"..... 

Its up up to the politicians and "interested parties" to decide the way forward now.
		
Click to expand...

You mean the 46% of Leave voters who thought that the referendum would definitely be rigged by _Remain_


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean the 46% of Leave voters who thought that the referendum would definitely be rigged by _Remain_

Click to expand...

And, "how do you actually know this?" 

Sorry but that's just rubbish.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

I have been reading up on whether parliament must be asked before article 50 is activated.   Parliament has no formal say over whether or when Article 50 is invoked, as this lies within the royal prerogative powers that are exercised by government. Governmentâ€™s powers in matters of foreign policy are very extensive, and parliament has veto rights only in respect of treaties. If parliament were to pass a motion calling on the Prime Minister not to invoke Article 50, we might nevertheless expect him (or perhaps, by then, her) to respect that. But the Prime Minister could claim the authority of the popular vote to justify ignoring such pressure.

It can also be considered that the Lisbon treaty that activated Article 50 into EU Law was agreed by the UK so no further legal action is required as we have already agreed to the way we implement it.  Also the fact that the Government put a 'referendum on membership of the EU' in their manifesto and were voted into government on that manifesto then the result of that referendum has already been given approval by the electorate.  (Please don't muddy the waters with the percentages of voters voting in the General Election as thats just irrelevant in a democratic election)

After an agreement with the EU has been completed or the discussions run out of time then there would need to be  a change to the European Community Act that passes legal powers to the EU over UK law.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 2, 2016)

Can you imagine the uproar around the country if they try to wriggle out of implementing brexit? It would make today's little london soiree by those who wish to ignore the result look like a tea party. Like I said earlier, it's democracy that's at stake.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How do you actually know this?
		
Click to expand...

Because most are sane people who understand democracy. There are obviously the odd one or two who are acting like spoilt little brats and keep throwing their toys out but they too will grow up one day.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean the 46% of Leave voters who thought that the referendum would definitely be rigged by _Remain_

Click to expand...

And in the words of the righteous,

"Do you actually know this".


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Because most are sane people who understand democracy. There are obviously the odd one or two who are acting like spoilt little brats and keep throwing their toys out but they too will grow up one day.
		
Click to expand...

In the interests of fairness, it should be stated that it would be exactly the same had Remain taken the day.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			From what I've read the referendum was advisory, not mandatory.  And this is the legal difference between an election, a mandatory and an advisory referendum.
		
Click to expand...

I see this being used a lot by the media now but never mentioned prior to the vote, perhaps something underhand is in the wind.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			In the interests of fairness, it should be stated that it would be exactly the same had Remain taken the day.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure it would but not by those that fully understand and support the democratic process.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			The vast majority of those who lost have accepted it, but it's impossible to move on until the Governments intentions are made clear. The Conservatives could have ended all the protests almost immediately by activating article 50 straight after the referendum. By prevaricating, and in some cases showing outright cowardice, they have allowed large doubts about the future of the U.K./EU to bloom.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but the current situation has arisen due to the lies of Cameron.  He stood there just before the referendum and pledged he would continue as PM which ever way the vote went then jumped ship at the first opportunity, knowing how it would frustrate the process.  His leadership with the referendum was dire, instead of keeping the debate calm and reasoned and using his resources to consider  a strategy on how we would deal with a post Brexit vote, he acted like a desperate blinkered harbinger of doom with no B plan.


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree but the current situation has arisen due to the lies of Cameron.  He stood there just before the referendum and pledged he would continue as PM which ever way the vote went then jumped ship at the first opportunity, knowing how it would frustrate the process.  His leadership with the referendum was dire, instead of keeping the debate calm and reasoned and using his resources to consider  a strategy on how we would deal with a post Brexit vote, he acted like a desperate blinkered harbinger of doom with no B plan.
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion, he deliberately scuppered Boris's plan to become PM. He put personal issues before the future of the U.K.  He was never going to be remembered as a great PM, but his actions ensured he'll be remembered as one of the worst.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean the 46% of Leave voters who thought that the referendum would definitely be rigged by _Remain_

Click to expand...

Talk like that is silly, percentages of votes only count to decide who had the most and you know it.  If the percentages had been the same for a Remain win you wouldn't take that stance.  Would you? be honest.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 2, 2016)

So it is outrageous to request the leave team to create a party and contend all seats at the next election? I mean it would follow through on the result shut all the arguments up and they would have a manifesto... Democratic due process. They have the support, so now do it properly. 
Also to pass a bill in the commons, how big does the majority have to be?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 2, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			In my opinion, he deliberately scuppered Boris's plan to become PM. He put personal issues before the future of the U.K.  He was never going to be remembered as a great PM, but his actions ensured he'll be remembered as one of the worst.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron's place in infamy is assured. He put his personal ambition above the good of the country and was so vain that he didn't think he could lose the referendum gamble. It is criminal that there's no plan for how to go forward after a leave vote.

Likewise Johnson, gove and the rest of the Brexit tories. Unprincipled opportunists playing political games without any real practical concept for what happens now.

In normal times, the tories would be dead in the water after their recent behaviour. Looks like they'll get away with it with labour being so unelectable at the moment.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			So it is outrageous to request the leave team to create a party and contend all seats at the next election? I mean it would follow through on the result shut all the arguments up and they would have a manifesto... Democratic due process. They have the support, so now do it properly. 
Also to pass a bill in the commons, how big does the majority have to be?
		
Click to expand...

And now do it properly? It was a referendum, and it was done properly. It was also in the Conservative manifesto. How many manifestos and votes do you want?

And yes, it is outrageous... You're getting so wild, and wound up by all of this. Breathe 2,3,4 and relax. Put your head between your legs and breathe into a brown paper bag.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			So it is outrageous to request the leave team to create a party and contend all seats at the next election? I mean it would follow through on the result shut all the arguments up and they would have a manifesto... Democratic due process. They have the support, so now do it properly. 
Also to pass a bill in the commons, how big does the majority have to be?
		
Click to expand...

As the next election will probably be in 2020 and we will be well out of the EU by then what exactly would this party that had nothing in common other than stay in the EU do 

Blow in that paper bag and try again.


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 3, 2016)

Perhaps if a government calls a referendum to allow the people to decide then they should remain neutral. They should allow others to argue the case for and against and not express opinion. Then when the people have decided they are free to implement the decision without being compromised by taking sides.


----------



## IainP (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would guess it would be to stay as I suspect many of the younger generation who previously could not arsed to vote would come out. Where as the increase in votes by the older generation would not be much. And statistically I think that would swing it. But that could be complete codswallop.
		
Click to expand...

It is a decent shout.

Does anyone know of some proper stats on the age range vote?

I could only find this lord Ashcroft polling, which seems to cover less than 0.04% of actual voters and also predicted a remain win.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

I've not read everything about this but I have one main question:

Has anyone been talking to other countries, both inside the EU and the rest of the world, about whether they will want to trade with us in the future?

We've known about this referendum for years. If I  had been in charge I'd have been looking to cover my arse by having a few proposals in place with Canada, China and Uncle Tom Conley.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

No idea who Tom Conley is but I hope he's got a few quid in his back pocket


----------



## IainP (Jul 3, 2016)

Is the phrase 'a week is a long time in politics'

From a few months back.

'Not planning for leave'
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-not-right-for-Britain-referendum-Arron-Banks

On having a 'second referendum'
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/u...izes-first-chance-7421413#2vZ6Or8KGtoH8rJy.97

It's been emotional!


----------



## bobmac (Jul 3, 2016)

Seeing as how most of the decisions that people dont like and caused this situation all came from Brussels, why dont we start our own EU without them.
After we leave, we could join with the other countries who leave and form EU2.
The same basic idea but Britain in charge. Then all the countries would have to give us all their money.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I see this being used a lot by the media now but never mentioned prior to the vote, perhaps something underhand is in the wind.
		
Click to expand...

I just genuinely think they did not expect to lose and therefore did not consider it.

 And as for underhand then said it many times but I expect this will end up in court so the government can be seen to delegate the decision. I doubt there will be a 2nd referendum. But what may happen is a parliamentary vote on whether to invoke it or not. Which will lead to many impassioned speeches on following the will of the people against the argument the people were misled and lied to by selfish politicians who were purely out for their own personal gain. 

But of course this could be utter balderdash.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Perhaps if a government calls a referendum to allow the people to decide then they should remain neutral. They should allow others to argue the case for and against and not express opinion. Then when the people have decided they are free to implement the decision without being compromised by taking sides.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean government, parliament or any elected representatives in general,  including MEPs, councillors etc,  should remain neutral? Where do you draw the line?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 3, 2016)

So if Brexit is so great how will a business that operates in Europe supplying a service compete with businesses in the EU? Will there be more complexity than mere currency fluctuations ?


----------



## ger147 (Jul 3, 2016)

IainP said:



			It is a decent shout.

Does anyone know of some proper stats on the age range vote?

I could only find this lord Ashcroft polling, which seems to cover less than 0.04% of actual voters and also predicted a remain win.
		
Click to expand...

There are no official stats, only polls as your vote is not tracked nor is there any official way to determine who voted what. So all of these age based or social based "statistics" are all based on polls.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 3, 2016)

When did a referendum become a legally binding decision when it is only just an opinion poll? 
Perhaps we should have a referendum on MP hours and make the clock in and out of the House of Commons ? Or they all have to wear pink on a Wednesday ?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I just genuinely think they did not expect to lose and therefore did not consider it.
		
Click to expand...


DaveCam told his mates, in Europe, they can trust him to deliver the UK to their doormat...

As he is a winner!

#deluded

Though I can see, through machinations of others, his promise coming to fruition...


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do you mean government, parliament or any elected representatives in general,  including MEPs, councillors etc,  should remain neutral? Where do you draw the line?
		
Click to expand...

Steady on, it's just an idea that popped into my head that might avoid the problems of the government being involved in the debate. I haven't actually put any thought into, if, or how, it would work. I posted it as an idea not a definite solution.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			So if Brexit is so great how will a business that operates in Europe supplying a service compete with businesses in the EU? Will there be more complexity than mere currency fluctuations ?
		
Click to expand...

For the next two years no difference.  After that it depends on what is negotiated.   You must know that!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			For the next two years no difference.  After that it depends on what is negotiated.   You must know that!
		
Click to expand...

That's correct in many instances but too simplistic overall. If a company was tendering for a multi year contract, for example, it would be challenging for them at the moment with the great uncertainty over what sort of arrangements would be in place after 2 years. Any competitor from an EU country will have a clear advantage at least until the brexit deal is known.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			When did a referendum become a legally binding decision when it is only just an opinion poll? 
Perhaps we should have a referendum on MP hours and make the clock in and out of the House of Commons ? Or they all have to wear pink on a Wednesday ?
		
Click to expand...

When it was part of the Governments manifesto for the people to decide if they wanted to stay or remain in the EU.  The Government was voted in to carry out that manifesto.  And dont suggest they were voted in by a minority of the population.

Also, the prime minister does not need the permission of parliament, he/she can use parliamentary prerogative which is perfectly legal.   Read up on it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's correct in many instances but too simplistic overall. If a company was tendering for a multi year contract, for example, it would be challenging for them at the moment with the great uncertainty over what sort of arrangements would be in place after 2 years. Any competitor from an EU country will have a clear advantage at least until the brexit deal is known.
		
Click to expand...

We have to accept that the process to leave takes time.  To change the country from a EU dependancy to an independant country will come with costs but we will have to accept that.   Hopefully it wont be too costly.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We have to accept that the process to leave takes time.  To change the country from a EU dependancy to an independant country will come with costs but we will have to accept that.   Hopefully it wont be too costly.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. Meantime the uncertainty is a problem. The tories need to stop eating themselves and get on with it.


----------



## bobmac (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			The tories need to stop eating themselves and get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

I would rather they took their time and made good, informed decisions rather than a rushed knee jerk reaction which might not be beneficial to the British economy in the long run.
We are in unfamiliar territory so lets hope the govt. get it right first time.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I would rather they took their time and made good, informed decisions rather than a rushed knee jerk reaction which might not be beneficial to the British economy in the long run.
We are in unfamiliar territory so lets hope the govt. get it right first time.
		
Click to expand...

I think we're currently looking at the worst case scenario, Bob. The considered, informed strategy should already have been in place but it isn't. The EU aren't faffing about, they've got a plan, they know their negotiating position. 

I suspect this will drag on possibly for years before a50 gets triggered. The new pm has a mandate to do it but knows the country is split down the middle on it. He or she is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Based on recent evidence they are more likely to muck around trying to maximise their personal popularity than do what's best for the country; which is to take quick decisive action IMO.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2016)

Although I cannot stand the man Gove is about the only one I trust to deliver Brexit...

Anyone else will just prevaricate and we'll be in limbo for years and years...


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly. Meantime the uncertainty is a problem. The tories need to stop eating themselves and get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. They do seem to be turning a farce into a travesty of a farce.


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Although I cannot stand the man Gove is about the only one I trust to deliver Brexit...

Anyone else will just prevaricate and we'll be in limbo for years and years...
		
Click to expand...

Surely the Tories want more than a single issue PM?? Gove is unpopular with large swathes of the electorate. Electing him purely on his Brexit stance would be lunacy. I suspect that Leadsom is going to be the front runner soon enough.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Although I cannot stand the man Gove is about the only one I trust to deliver Brexit...

Anyone else will just prevaricate and we'll be in limbo for years and years...
		
Click to expand...

Gove is so tied to the leave campaign that there is no way he can not do it but even he has already stated he won't trigger a50 this year. The next pm is screwed either way but will probably do further damage to the country while they try to manipulate the situation to their advantage.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Because both parties are in such a ridiculous state of waddarwegonnadonext would there be any benefit in a true coalition between the Cons and Labs to get the country together and move forward through the exit deal?


Just a thought......


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Surely the Tories want more than a single issue PM?? Gove is unpopular with large swathes of the electorate. Electing him purely on his Brexit stance would be lunacy. I suspect that Leadsom is going to be the front runner soon enough.
		
Click to expand...

I am no Tory and going on his performance, on Marr this morning, Gove is far from being of PM 'material'... As a leaver Gove is the only one I'd back to at least take the first steps to leave...

Anyone else will see , come the next GE, a house full of 'kippers...
And, please none of us really want to witness that...


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Although I cannot stand the man Gove is about the only one I trust to deliver Brexit...

Anyone else will just prevaricate and we'll be in limbo for years and years...
		
Click to expand...

I think Give has shot himself in the foot as a true candidate. I think he's been promised a major position behind May for the time being with the plan of taking over after her. 
His actions won't get him elected, it was only done to scupper Boris. ( Just my opinion - nothing  at all to back it up with facts...) &#128521;


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

Pro Zach said:



			Steady on, it's just an idea that popped into my head that might avoid the problems of the government being involved in the debate. *I haven't actually put any thought into, if, or how, it would work. *I posted it as an idea not a definite solution.
		
Click to expand...

Much like the reason most people voted leave......

I''m sorry, it was a joke, it's just the temptation was too much for me, I'm shallow like that.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			....while they try to manipulate the situation to their advantage.
		
Click to expand...

Haven't all politicians on both sides proved that this is their only point of reference and the 'What's best for the country' idea is a long way down their list of priorities?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Haven't all politicians on both sides proved that this is their only point of reference and the 'What's best for the country' idea is a long way down their list of priorities?
		
Click to expand...

Many have, yes, but not all.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Because both parties are in such a ridiculous state of waddarwegonnadonext would there be any benefit in a true coalition between the Cons and Labs to get the country together and move forward through the exit deal?


Just a thought......
		
Click to expand...

I assume by 'country'you are talking for England and Wales there.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2016)

Also, finding it mildly amusing watching Ms Sturgeon swoon over Juncker who makes Blatter look like a decent honest bloke...

Clearly not learnt anything from her 2IC who by his own admission spent too long sucking on Donald's trump...


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Much like the reason most people voted leave......

I''m sorry, it was a joke, it's just the temptation was too much for me, I'm shallow like that.

Click to expand...

Yes...I know you are.

This was also a joke because I'm funny like that.

Anyone who says it wasn't funny is an idiot or a genius....just to avoid argument.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I think Give has shot himself in the foot as a true candidate. I think he's been promised a major position behind May for the time being with the plan of taking over after her. 
His actions won't get him elected, it was only done to scupper Boris. ( Just my opinion - nothing  at all to back it up with facts...) &#62985;
		
Click to expand...

He was removed as education secretary and was kept away from the public during the last GE, mostly as he was electoral poison. So I find it vaguely amusing and very depressing that he is seen as a credible person to lead the country.  But then again we are in very strange times.


----------



## Imurg (Jul 3, 2016)

Heard Gove described as having the permanent look of a man who's farted in a lift and managed to pass the blame onto a small child.......


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)




----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I find it vaguely amusing and very depressing that he is seen as a credible person to lead the country.  But then again we are in very strange times.
		
Click to expand...

During the campaigning I mentioned his name and my Mrs, my daughter and her boyfriend googled him because they couldn't place him. 
Queue 5 minutes tearful laughter.....


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Many have, yes, but not all.
		
Click to expand...

Ooh ooh. Quick.
Any of them looking to run the country??
&#128537;&#128537;


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I assume by 'country'you are talking for England and Wales there.

Click to expand...

Nope


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 20083

Click to expand...

YES . Spot on.. &#128514;


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Nope
		
Click to expand...

More positions of power for Scotland's two Tory and one Labour MP's then.
or Like Labour will you just fill up thye positions with English MP's.

Andrew Neil......One Aberdeen Grammar school boy sees off three Bullingham boys.:lol:


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Ooh ooh. Quick.
Any of them looking to run the country??
&#128537;&#128537;
		
Click to expand...

Sadly not.

Another wonderfully assured, dignified and statesmanlike performance by Ruth Davidson on politics Scotland today. A real shame she's not eligible to stand.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.. Like Labour will you just fill up thye positions with English MP's.
:
		
Click to expand...

A) It was a light-hearted comment - it ain't gonna happen 
B) More seriously, this is the problem at the moment - people's inability to accept the democratic process: 1) Scotland voted to be part of the UK. 2) the UK voted to leave the EU. 
OK so let's get the best deal for the WHOLE of the UK, then get back on the democratic train to see where the dust settles. I still think we'll be part of the single market. I think there will still broadly be free movement but with some changes about how long people can stay without registered work.
It'll mean the numbers of EU immigrants goes down, but the number of temporary migrant labour goes up - typical government fudging.
Peace and love to all Brits everywhere&#128536;


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I assume by 'country'you are talking for England and Wales there.

Click to expand...

You haven't called Independance within your house again have you, you know that as only one house your chances of joining the EU are low.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 3, 2016)

Now that the referendum is apparently 'advisory'. A question for Scottish forumers. If after the next Scottish referendum for independence, Westminster chooses to ignore the result as 'advisory' would that still be acceptable? Or does it only apply when England overwhelmingly vote to leave the EU.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Now that the referendum is apparently 'advisory'. A question for Scottish forumers. If after the next Scottish referendum for independence, Westminster chooses to ignore the result as 'advisory' would that still be acceptable? Or does it only apply when England overwhelmingly vote to leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Legally you have to classify the referendum as either advisory or mandatory.  This was flagged up before in some areas, but of course it was not widely publicised. 

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/01/19/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/

If further Scottish referendums are classed as advisory as the last one was then yes, the government legally can ignore it.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Now that the referendum is apparently 'advisory'. A question for Scottish forumers. If after the next Scottish referendum for independence, Westminster chooses to ignore the result as 'advisory' would that still be acceptable? Or does it only apply when England overwhelmingly vote to leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, so prepared to be corrected, but I don't think any scots on here who are eligible to vote in an indyref have suggested the result was 'advisory'.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm not sure, so prepared to be corrected, but I don't think any scots on here who are eligible to vote in an indyref have suggested the result was 'advisory'.
		
Click to expand...

I was talking about wider press coverage rather than on here. I directed the question to Scots because they would be affected in future.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was talking about wider press coverage rather than on here. I directed the question to Scots because they would be affected in future.
		
Click to expand...

Ah sorry, I thought you were having  go.

I don't think there should another indyref. If there is one it mustn't be until the brexit settlement is known so that we actually understand what we'd be voting about. And if it was a vote to leave the uk it'd clearly have to go to "best of 3"


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Now that the referendum is apparently 'advisory'. A question for Scottish forumers. If after the next Scottish referendum for independence, Westminster chooses to ignore the result as 'advisory' would that still be acceptable? Or does it only apply when England overwhelmingly vote to leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...

England voted to leave, Scotland did not.
If 52% is overwhelming I wonder what adjective would describe 62%.
Same rules apply.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England voted to leave, Scotland did not.
If 52% is overwhelming I wonder what adjective would describe 62%.
Same rules apply.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry. The UK voted to leave. Scotland is part of that. If you are that vehement about the outcome couldn't you have found a couple of million Scots that couldn't be bothered to get off their backside to vote to come out on your side?
If 100% of Scotland had voted 100% to stay in you'd have an argument. As it is, sorry but you is a cockerknee just like the rest of us Sassenach gits.&#129303;


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England voted to leave, Scotland did not.
If 52% is overwhelming I wonder what adjective would describe 62%.
Same rules apply.
		
Click to expand...

And Wales

If this http://www.scotreferendum.com/2014/09/first-minister-on-referendum-outcome/

is correct then I'm not to sure what your trying to say or is it that you would only admit that you lost if the figures are less than 46%


----------



## MarkE (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England voted to leave, Scotland did not.
If 52% is overwhelming I wonder what adjective would describe 62%.
Same rules apply.
		
Click to expand...

So you would be happy for Westminster to ignore the outcome of a future Scottish referendum? Regardless of percentages.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Sorry. The UK voted to leave. Scotland is part of that. If you are that vehement about the outcome couldn't you have found a couple of million Scots that couldn't be bothered to get off their backside to vote to come out on your side?
If 100% of Scotland had voted 100% to stay in you'd have an argument. As it is, sorry but you is a cockerknee just like the rest of us Sassenach gits.&#129303;
		
Click to expand...

It it would not have made a difference unless the 2 year olds + had a vote.
You do not seem to know much about Scotland in Numbers.

PS .......Still waiting for your adjective for 62%


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

MarkE said:



			So you would be happy for Westminster to ignore the outcome of a future Scottish referendum? Regardless of percentages.
		
Click to expand...

At their peril, we will start sharpening the claymores and stealing your sheep.:lol:


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At their peril, we will start sharpening the claymores and stealing your sheep.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

The claymores we use in RUK don't need sharpening, things have moved on down south.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2016)

We have that sort here in the UK as well.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's correct in many instances but too simplistic overall. If a company was tendering for a multi year contract, for example, it would be challenging for them at the moment with the great uncertainty over what sort of arrangements would be in place after 2 years. Any competitor from an EU country will have a clear advantage at least until the brexit deal is known.
		
Click to expand...

That is the correct answer.. The cost models all require revising due to import duties, the volumes required due to demand after the final cost of the offered product...
The motor manufacturers look 8 years in advance but this means all the programs coming to the end of their glide paths in 2 years require revision. Will they take a pessimistic view, well they have to be honest and not get over ambitious. There will be a major push by all manufacturers either side of the channel as they will be equally affected. 
The long term solution if we leave is to move major manufacturing into Europe or try and draw as many suppliers into the local market. To do that will require some government enticements. 
The big issue here is we talk about economies, and they all have slight issues. If we become a service economy only we will be serving others and a select few of our own.. The manufacturing industry is required to sustain the economy, it frees us from serving others and allows us to develop as a nation (the Victorians are a prime example). Basically speaking if we make the best stuff we will always have customers, but at present the small backbone of engineering needs support and developing... This decision could be argued positively or negatively in that we have forced ourselves to the forefront .. But that means some strict measures to get there, such as wage cuts, benefits reductions and longer hours. India and China have strong economies because they still pay low wages, and work long hours, either way you look at it you need to be on a level playing field.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At their peril, we will start sharpening the claymores and stealing your sheep.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

As it should be. Any attempt to backtrack on Brexit and going against the majority should never be entertained by anyone who believes in democracy.:thup:


----------



## drdel (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England voted to leave, Scotland did not.
If 52% is overwhelming I wonder what adjective would describe 62%.
Same rules apply.
		
Click to expand...


Under that logic Scotland's Independence referendum was invalid because the rest of the UK did not get to vote.

In a democratic referendum the majority of the valid voters get to decide the outcome - any subdivision must come before the poll not after.

I'm surprised that with this Forum not being predominantly Scottish you can bring yourself to slum it here. Perhaps there should be a Scottish Forum - vote anyone!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2016)

It's an opinion..

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07...trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/


----------



## chippa1909 (Jul 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sadly not.

Another wonderfully assured, dignified and statesmanlike performance by Ruth Davidson on politics Scotland today. A real shame she's not eligible to stand.
		
Click to expand...

I particularly liked the bit where she said she would not try to stop a future indyref2, and would advise the future Tory PM against doing so too.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 3, 2016)

drdel said:



			Under that logic Scotland's Independence referendum was invalid because the rest of the UK did not get to vote.

In a democratic referendum the majority of the valid voters get to decide the outcome - any subdivision must come before the poll not after.

I'm surprised that with this Forum not being predominantly Scottish you can bring yourself to slum it here. Perhaps there should be a Scottish Forum - vote anyone!
		
Click to expand...

+1. Ha ha


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			More positions of power for Scotland's two Tory and one Labour MP's then.
or Like Labour will you just fill up thye positions with English MP's.

Andrew Neil......One Aberdeen Grammar school boy sees off three Bullingham boys.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Another veiled anti English post.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At their peril, we will start sharpening the claymores and stealing your sheep.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

 OK,  as long as thats all you do to our sheep.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's an opinion..

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07...trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/

Click to expand...

How can he berate those who campaigned for both sides yet urge them to use their position as MP's, behind the banner representative democracy, to ignore the electorate? As he says, there were lies on both sides yet chooses not to single those of Remain out. He certainly doesn't highlight the deeply distorted figures used by George Osbourne, which were miles away from those given to him by the Treasury.

Finally, I find his last but one paragraph deeply offensive. I don't doubt some of the validity of the evidence surrounding the demographics of the vote. However, if the older generation hadn't strived as it has most of the youngsters would have had summer holidays in Bognor Regis, had most of their journeys by bus and wouldn't have had anything like the access to further education that they enjoy.

I voted Remain, but I don't want the result hijacking with smart words used to hide truths. The only way I could reconcile even a second vote is for the spokespeople for both sides to run an honest campaign.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's an opinion..

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07...trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/

Click to expand...


Completely overlooks that "our neighbours and partners in Europe" had plenty of opportunity to provide good reasons for a strong platform to remain and failed to do so... Juncker + Co are every bit as much to blame as anyone else..


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			That is the correct answer.. The cost models all require revising due to import duties, the volumes required due to demand after the final cost of the offered product...
The motor manufacturers look 8 years in advance but this means all the programs coming to the end of their glide paths in 2 years require revision. Will they take a pessimistic view, well they have to be honest and not get over ambitious. There will be a major push by all manufacturers either side of the channel as they will be equally affected. 
The long term solution if we leave is to move major manufacturing into Europe or try and draw as many suppliers into the local market. To do that will require some government enticements. 
The big issue here is we talk about economies, and they all have slight issues. If we become a service economy only we will be serving others and a select few of our own.. The manufacturing industry is required to sustain the economy, it frees us from serving others and allows us to develop as a nation (the Victorians are a prime example). Basically speaking if we make the best stuff we will always have customers, but at present the small backbone of engineering needs support and developing... This decision could be argued positively or negatively in that we have forced ourselves to the forefront .. But that means some strict measures to get there, such as wage cuts, benefits reductions and longer hours. India and China have strong economies because they still pay low wages, and work long hours, either way you look at it you need to be on a level playing field.
		
Click to expand...

The long term decisions will IMO be taken based on what arrangements for free trade can be created between the UK and the EU and many companies will wait to see what transpires as it can be very costly to move manufacturing centres. there will also be the opportunities that come about by the UK being able to open up its trade with the rest of the world which is already starting to gather interest by a number of countries.

The UK is very good at developing new technologies and exploiting research and development to create products that are in demand worldwide.  Many of these products are not only hardware but software and it makes little difference where that is produced but that has always been the case, my company developed design and manufacturing software based in the UK but collaborated with partners worldwide, both in the EU and outside the EU.   We had very few problems developing and selling our technologies around the world and our biggest partner by far was Japan. I can see nothing with Brexit that would make any significant change to that business.   Hardware manufacturing has been sent out to countries with lower labour costs and in many cases to eastern europe for years which although we were in the EU was no help to the loss of jobs, in many cases the Eastern EU countries were receiving EU grants to help them set up facilities to take on the work.

It not a simple case of companies being jumpy and starting plans to shift production  to the EU.  There is a good chance that we may be able to attract business from around the world if we have lower trade barriers than the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's an opinion..

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07...trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/

Click to expand...

But IMO full of inaccuracies and especially pertaining to the constitutional issues.  It's sour grapes and a distraction to the job in hand.  He needs to get on with the job of educating people in subjects that can benefit the country


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 3, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			I particularly liked the bit where she said she would not try to stop a future indyref2, and would advise the future Tory PM against doing so too. 

Click to expand...

She was pretty spot on with the way she dealt with indyref2. Key point being that the SNP shouldn't try to cash in on the current bad feeling to stage another referendum before we know what we're voting for.

See what the brexit deal is, and what terms Scotland would get to rejoin the eu and only then should indyref2 be contemplated.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 3, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It it would not have made a difference unless the 2 year olds + had a vote.
You do not seem to know much about Scotland in Numbers.

PS .......Still waiting for your adjective for 62%
		
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. I have no idea of the number of available voters in Scotland but I think that there were plenty of potential voters around who Remain could have inspired to vote with them. But the whole Remain campaign was uninspiring in the extreme.
As for 62%. I think the best word for it is... irrelevant &#128521;


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Another veiled anti English post.
		
Click to expand...

Aye right....In reply to a poster who wants Conservative and Labour MP's to form a UK coalition, basically cutting Scotland and NI out of the process.

Re Andrew Neil, you really do not have a sense of humor.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			You're absolutely right. I have no idea of the number of available voters in Scotland but I think that there were plenty of potential voters around who Remain could have inspired to vote with them. But the whole Remain campaign was uninspiring in the extreme.
As for 62%. I think the best word for it is... irrelevant &#128521;
		
Click to expand...

So you agree that 52% is seriously less than irrelevant.


----------



## larmen (Jul 4, 2016)

Phillip Hammond on the BBC, a leaver that seems reasonable and makes sense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36707573

Shame that the 3 morons created so much hate on both sides.

Not sure with him endorsing May as leader, but we will have to see.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2016)

larmen said:



			Phillip Hammond on the BBC, a leaver that seems reasonable and makes sense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36707573

Shame that the 3 morons created so much hate on both sides.

Not sure with him endorsing May as leader, but we will have to see.
		
Click to expand...

Which three morons?    And how could they create hate on both sides?


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2016)

larmen said:



			Phillip Hammond on the BBC, *a leaver that seems reasonable and makes sense*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36707573

Shame that the 3 morons created so much hate on both sides.

Not sure with him endorsing May as leader, but we will have to see.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because he was actually a 'Remain'-er!  

3 Morons? Gove, Bozo and Farage? 2 of them have now 'gone from the stage'! Quite easy to add Cameron and Osborne as other 'morons' though - 1 of those also exited and I can imagine the other losing his role come the new PM's Cabinet. Certainly something Shakespearian about the whole 'tragedy'!


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 5, 2016)

Is it just me or is there too much ranting and wailing about things that just cannot be decided until a few minor details are in place....like having a government, an opposition and actually invoking a50???
&#129300;


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you agree that 52% is seriously less than irrelevant.

Click to expand...

It should be. But Cameron made it ridiculously vital by not setting the boundaries of the referendum properly.
What it isn't is carte blanche to rip up every contact with our trading partners and allies and start bombing Dresden. 
What it should be is a mandate to keep a 'common market ' (now there's a phrase for the teenagers....) open and also increase trading links around the world.
But it looks like there are too many politicians that want their pound of political flesh to look at the bigger picture.
&#128580;


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re Andrew Neil, you really do not have a sense of humor.

Click to expand...

Is that Andrew Neil the great Scotsman who prefers to live and work in England rather than his home nation 
&#128523;&#128523;


----------



## User62651 (Jul 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Is that Andrew Neil the great Scotsman who prefers to live and work in England rather than his home nation 
&#128523;&#128523;
		
Click to expand...

 Daft point, 10% roughly of the populace of Scotland are English incomers/settlers whereas only roughly 1.3% of the English populace are Scottish incomers, that would suggest people move readily in both directions and proportionately more from England to Scotland. We all know media and politics is London centric so it is not surprising someone like A Neil is based down south.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			It should be. But Cameron made it ridiculously vital by not setting the boundaries of the referendum properly.
What it isn't is carte blanche to rip up every contact with our trading partners and allies and start bombing Dresden. 
What it should be is a mandate to keep a 'common market ' (now there's a phrase for the teenagers....) open and also increase trading links around the world.
But it looks like there are too many politicians that want their pound of political flesh to look at the bigger picture.
&#128580;
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean he didn't set the boundaries such that they make the Remainers win.  If the vote had gone the other way and Remain won by the same percentages none of them would be saying it was unfair to the Brexeteers.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2016)

Bank of England getting involved pro-actively (or maybe not!) providing over Â£150Bn of liquidity to banks for lending - supposedly to all sectors.

Entirely predictable/predicted requirement and an indication of 'challenging environment' that now exists. More such moves may be required in the coming months!

Government been surprisingly quiet - at least media reporting of its activity. The sooner the Conservatives settle the leadership issue, the better. Then, hopefully, both Cameron and the PM-in-waiting can speak positively about the way forward, which is far better than the current 'vacuum'!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 5, 2016)

So BoE has reduced liquidity requirements for bank so they can lend more â€“ though it can technically also make them weaker as they have lower reserves.  Three property funds have stopped redemptions to stop a run on them. Sterling at 31-year low and dropping. The so called leaders of Brexit have decided to it is time to get their life back so they donâ€™t have to implement the lies.  The Govt. (or whatever exists now) does not seem to have a plan.  To use Mark Carneyâ€™s phrase "There is evidence that some risks have begun to crystallise. The current outlook for UK financial stability is challenging." â€“ but what would Mark know.  At what point does someone take charge and point out that the Emperorâ€™s new clothes are not as beautiful as they used to be. 

Chip up folks, we can get thru this.


----------



## User62651 (Jul 5, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So BoE has reduced liquidity requirements for bank so they can lend more â€“ though it can technically also make them weaker as they have lower reserves.  Three property funds have stopped redemptions to stop a run on them. Sterling at 31-year low and dropping. The so called leaders of Brexit have decided to it is time to get their life back so they donâ€™t have to implement the lies.  The Govt. (or whatever exists now) does not seem to have a plan.  To use Mark Carneyâ€™s phrase "There is evidence that some risks have begun to crystallise. The current outlook for UK financial stability is challenging." â€“ but what would Mark know.  At what point does someone take charge and point out that the Emperorâ€™s new clothes are not as beautiful as they used to be. 

Chip up folks, we can get thru this.
		
Click to expand...

If you happended to catch the Adrian Chiles programme re Brexit on BBC last night, you would see that the state of the economy had next to no bearing on the people he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc. What Mark Carney has to say or what happens in the City is of no interest and not even understandable for a huge swathes of the poor population who feel they get squeezed the hardest by economic migrants. David Cameron failed to realise this because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never suffered any kind of economic hardship himself and lives in a Westminster bubble. So out of touch as evidenced by DC opting to even have the referendum. It was an enormous gamble to placate the right of his own party and UKIP which badly backfired. We will have to get thru this but you can be assured that those Tories at the root cause of this mess will not suffer in the slightest.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 5, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			If you happended to catch the Adrian Chiles programme re Brexit on BBC last night, you would see that the state of the economy had next to no bearing on the people he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc. What Mark Carney has to say or what happens in the City is of no interest and not even understandable for a huge swathes of the poor population who feel they get squeezed the hardest by economic migrants. David Cameron failed to realise this because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never suffered any kind of economic hardship himself and lives in a Westminster bubble. So out of touch as evidenced by DC opting to even have the referendum. It was an enormous gamble to placate the right of his own party and UKIP which badly backfired. We will have to get thru this but you can be assured that those Tories at the root cause of this mess will not suffer in the slightest.
		
Click to expand...

Your right, he should have said all those with jobs and pay tax could drop in their abundance and you won't worry about houses or benefits etc... Just which bin has something in it. Honesty has to be brutal sometimes. Where is Simon Cowel?


----------



## vkurup (Jul 5, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			If you happended to catch the Adrian Chiles programme re Brexit on BBC last night, you would see that the state of the economy had next to no bearing on the people he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc. What Mark Carney has to say or what happens in the City is of no interest and not even understandable for a huge swathes of the poor population who feel they get squeezed the hardest by economic migrants. David Cameron failed to realise this because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never suffered any kind of economic hardship himself and lives in a Westminster bubble. So out of touch as evidenced by DC opting to even have the referendum. It was an enormous gamble to placate the right of his own party and UKIP which badly backfired. We will have to get thru this but you can be assured that those Tories at the root cause of this mess will not suffer in the slightest.
		
Click to expand...

True.. a bit like English footballers who are over paid and overhyped. They do a Brexit and go on holidays to get away from it while the rest of thhe hopeful spectators have to pick the next team to support..

I can see some of the reasons why we voted Leave, but unfortunately anger directed at out of touch Westminster is now a self inflicted wound.  Also unfortunately what Mark Carney says or what the city does has a trickle down effect into the rest of the country. Now that we are over the emotions of the vote, the consequences start rolling in which will unfortunately hit the lowest rung of the society the most.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 6, 2016)

... last week this landed in the mailbox.. 

Hi XXX,
Hope you are doing well. As you may know I am an international recruiter for X and Y, and I like to keep my finger on the pulse. At this time it is unclear as to how Brexit will affect the UK market. I would be keen to know your thoughts, if you are available for a call?
Kind regards,
abc

----
Looks like Brexit might give international recruiting a fillip ..


----------



## Rooter (Jul 6, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			If you happended to catch the Adrian Chiles programme re Brexit on BBC last night, you would see that the state of the economy had next to no bearing on the people he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc. What Mark Carney has to say or what happens in the City is of no interest and not even understandable for a huge swathes of the poor population who feel they get squeezed the hardest by economic migrants. David Cameron failed to realise this because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never suffered any kind of economic hardship himself and lives in a Westminster bubble. So out of touch as evidenced by DC opting to even have the referendum. It was an enormous gamble to placate the right of his own party and UKIP which badly backfired. We will have to get thru this but you can be assured that those Tories at the root cause of this mess will not suffer in the slightest.
		
Click to expand...

absolutely spot on about the majority of brexit voters couldn't give a stuff about BOE rates etc, but this is why the public should not have been allowed to vote on this, these people do not realise that if the country goes into recession again, there will be no new council houses, there will be no extra benefits (more likely cuts! across the board too,  education, health, roads, social care etc etc etc), we as a nation will outsource more so in fact, the finances of the country actually dictate everything and it is the most important factor.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Rooter said:



			absolutely spot on about the majority of brexit voters couldn't give a stuff about BOE rates etc, but this is why the public should not have been allowed to vote on this, *these people do not realise* that if the country goes into recession again, there will be no new council houses, there will be no extra benefits (more likely cuts! across the board too,  education, health, roads, social care etc etc etc), we as a nation will outsource more so in fact, the finances of the country actually dictate everything and it is the most important factor.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly the kind of condescending remark that gets peoples backs up about the perceived elite of society. These people as you call them, have nothing anyway and just maybe voting to leave the EU could improve their lot in life. Better than the status quo anyway.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2016)

Rooter said:



			absolutely spot on about the majority of brexit voters couldn't give a stuff about BOE rates etc, but this is why the public should not have been allowed to vote on this, these people do not realise that if the country goes into recession again, there will be no new council houses, there will be no extra benefits (more likely cuts! across the board too,  education, health, roads, social care etc etc etc), we as a nation will outsource more so in fact, the finances of the country actually dictate everything and it is the most important factor.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. The Adrian chiles programme was depressing on a number of levels, not least of which was that the majority of reasons cited for voting to leave were little to do with the EU and more a protest against the government. By people who admitted they don't vote in general elections.


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Exactly the kind of condescending remark that gets peoples backs up about the perceived elite of society. These people as you call them, have nothing anyway and just maybe *voting to leave the EU could improve their lot in life*. Better than the status quo anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Maybe you could explain where this will happen for people who have nothing or very little? 

For many this nothing or very little could become even less as the price of day to day imports (food being one of the main ones) starts to rise and benefits potentially get cut further.


----------



## Rooter (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Exactly the kind of condescending remark that gets peoples backs up about the perceived elite of society. These people as you call them, have nothing anyway and just maybe voting to leave the EU could improve their lot in life. Better than the status quo anyway.
		
Click to expand...

How is it condescending? Maxfli said "the state of the economy had next to no bearing on *the people* he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc.'

Sorry, i should have said 'The' people. 

You want Salt and Vinegar for that chip? I was anti Brexit before, now its happened i am ready to embrace it, but it should have not got this far. We should have had this decision made for the greater good of the nation by experts who had done thorough analysis of the pro's and con's of leaving, not Joe Public basing their vote on what they read in the papers, saw on the TV or heard down the pub.


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

Rooter said:



			How is it condescending? Maxfli said "the state of the economy had next to no bearing on *the people* he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc.'

Sorry, i should have said 'The' people. 

You want Salt and Vinegar for that chip? I was anti Brexit before, now its happened i am ready to embrace it, but it should have not got this far. *We should have had this decision made for the greater good of the nation by experts who had done thorough analysis of the pro's and con's of leaving, not Joe Public basing their vote on what they read in the papers, saw on the TV or heard down the pub.*

Click to expand...

At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

Carney does a great job talking the country down.  He looks like he has just been slapped around the face a few times with a wet haddock and then spills out his downbeat message.  The sooner they get rid of him so he can peruse his real ambitions in Canadian politics the better, we need people that can give out positive vibes.


----------



## Rooter (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.
		
Click to expand...

And paid for Val! they want 100k a year plus bonus and expenses? well bloody earn it and make decisions!!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Carney does a great job talking the country down.  He looks like he has just been slapped around the face a few times with a wet haddock and then spills out his downbeat message.  The sooner they get rid of him so he can peruse his real ambitions in Canadian politics the better, we need people that can give out positive vibes.
		
Click to expand...

Down with experts! Boo! Burn the heretic!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Down with experts! Boo! Burn the heretic!
		
Click to expand...

Did I suggest he's not an expert.  Did I?  My post suggested his demeanour and downbeat message is not what is required from someone in his job.  We need people that will talk up the markets not talk them into recession as has happened so many time before.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Exactly the kind of condescending remark that gets peoples backs up about the perceived elite of society. These people as you call them, have nothing anyway and just maybe voting to leave the EU could improve their lot in life. Better than the status quo anyway.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. Would you employ a plumber to do brain surgery? Sometimes you've just got to acknowledge that some people are better placed to make certain decisions. 

The first failing was by Cameron deciding to give an important decision to the masses without an plan on how to educate the masses (honestly) to make that decision. As for then allowing both sides to lie and lie and lie... an appalling lack of acceptance of the responsibility to run an honest and fair campaign.


----------



## jp5 (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Carney does a great job talking the country down.  He looks like he has just been slapped around the face a few times with a wet haddock and then spills out his downbeat message.  The sooner they get rid of him so he can peruse his real ambitions in Canadian politics the better, we need people that can give out positive vibes.
		
Click to expand...








I don't think Carney has as much influence as you think he does.

In fact he's probably been one of the more stabilising figures of recent weeks.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I suggest he's not an expert.  Did I?  My post suggested his demeanour and downbeat message is not what is required from someone in his job.  We need people that will talk up the markets not talk them into recession as has happened so many time before.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, we need someone to tell it like it is. Sorry if the facts don't suit the rose tinted brexit agenda.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I disagree, we need someone to tell it like it is. Sorry if the facts don't suit the rose tinted brexit agenda.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we will have a clear agenda with blinkered spectacles  on then or even ones that have the ability to look backwards.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe we will have a clear agenda with blinkered spectacles  on then or even ones that have the ability to look backwards.
		
Click to expand...

The most succinct description I've yet seen of the leave campaign.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 6, 2016)

If you choose to listen to the political commentators/pundits...

The 'rose tinted spectacle' brexit wearers were mostly made up of honest hard working folk that were sick to the back teeth with successive 'for the workers' governments using them as scapegoats for every failure of their governance... 30+ years of tories is or should be enough for anyone... If anyone still thinks Blair/Brown represented 'the working classes' sadly you are wrong...

Not sure about burning 'experts' at the stake but making them go out and find a proper job would be a good start...


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.
		
Click to expand...

While there's certainly merit in that view, the current government was actually elected with a manifesto that stated that a referendum would be held! So they were absolutely right to hold one! 

The result may have been disappointing for about 48%, but (something like) that is what happens in any form of public vote!

The fact that it isn't clear-cut either way is disappointing, but that's beside the point!

What will happen now is that all, or at least most, of the negatives about Brexit will 'crystallise', but none of the (supposed) positive ones will happen until A50 is submitted and either agreement/s is/are made or 2 years passes - and the negotiating period is not extended.

Of course, a cynic might the view that the shrinkage of the UK economy (I believe it has already dropped below France in GDP terms, so has 'slipped' to 7th in the rankings) could prompt a reduction in migration (one of the major concerns of those favouring Brexit), as the desirability of migrating to UK is reduced! 

Personally, I believe that there should be more referendums, though not necessarily binding unless a threshold value (perhaps 60%?) is attained. I'm fuzzy over what should trigger one, but the Swiss have a process that seems to work ok. I believe that more referendums would encourage UK folk to 'get involved' more. At the moment, many appear to vote simply as commanded by the newspaper they read. I'd like to see the news media have far less political influence than it seems to currently! Part of (what I perceive as) the chaotic nature of the debate was that this was to first such referendum for all but the Scots (who didn't seem to participate as much as I would have expected) in around 40 years!

It also hasn't shown 'the political class' in a very good light either! There were simply too many obvious exaggerations or downright lies spouted - by both sides - that I'm certain public respect for politicians has sunk even lower than ever!


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...My post suggested his demeanour and downbeat message is not what is required from someone in his job....
		
Click to expand...

 He seems to me to be performing exactly as his role requires! The (entirely predictable) risks of a Brexit result are now starting to happen. So, as the real prudential supervisor of 'the economy', he is taking action and making noises to minimize any negative disruption to it. He was challenged before the vote for his supposed political-isation of his role, but rebutted that rather well imo. I'd suggest that a 'diplomatic' role, as opposed to a directly political one, would be more appropriate for him after the 'training' at the BofE!



SocketRocket said:



			We need people that will talk up the markets not talk them into recession as has happened so many time before.
		
Click to expand...

'Talking up' the markets was a significant contributor to the 2008 crash! That's certainly NOT part of his role! He has actually stated that (as one of the risks) a technical recession (2 quarters of negative growth) is likely, but that there is sufficient liquidity and backing to ride that out! So a prudent realist, neither a 'salesman' nor the 'doom merchant' that politicians and the news media seem to be!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I disagree, we need someone to tell it like it is. Sorry if the facts don't suit the rose tinted brexit agenda.
		
Click to expand...

Agree..  
.. on his style and downbeat mode.. those who have met him would say that, it is his 'normal' TV face. He is Canadian and is straight faced about things.  He cant be James Bond but he is trying to shore up the bank.  Saw him at Borough market getting his lunch, and he still had his 'wet haddock' look.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Carney does a great job talking the country down.  He looks like he has just been slapped around the face a few times with a wet haddock and then spills out his downbeat message.  The sooner they get rid of him so he can peruse his real ambitions in Canadian politics the better, we need people that can give out positive vibes.
		
Click to expand...

How do you put a positive vibe on the Â£ losing at least 10% of its value? Do you want him dancing around in a clown suit giggling?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

Rooter said:



			How is it condescending? Maxfli said "the state of the economy had next to no bearing on *the people* he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc.'

Sorry, i should have said 'The' people. 

You want Salt and Vinegar for that chip? I was anti Brexit before, now its happened i am ready to embrace it, but it should have not got this far. We should have had this decision made for the greater good of the nation by experts who had done thorough analysis of the pro's and con's of leaving,* not Joe Public basing their vote on what they read in the papers, saw on the TV or heard down the pub.*

Click to expand...

Or read on a Golf Forum?  But surely no ones that stupid....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe we will have a clear agenda with blinkered spectacles on then or even ones that have the ability to look backwards.
		
Click to expand...




FairwayDodger said:



			The most succinct description I've yet seen of the leave campaign.
		
Click to expand...

OK, stop the clock, FD has just won this thread with that zinger. Zinggggggggggggggggg


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			Really? Maybe you could explain where this will happen for people who have nothing or very little? 

For many this nothing or very little could become even less as the price of day to day imports (food being one of the main ones) starts to rise and benefits potentially get cut further.
		
Click to expand...

I am not doubting anything you say. Just that if you have little in life, you are going to feel there's no real danger in voting to change the status quo.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Rooter said:



			How is it condescending? Maxfli said "the state of the economy had next to no bearing on *the people* he was speaking to who voted to leave. Concerns were all on council house access priority, welfare benefits access, eastern europeans undercutting so putting British out of work etc.'

Sorry, i should have said 'The' people. 

You want Salt and Vinegar for that chip? I was anti Brexit before, now its happened i am ready to embrace it, but it should have not got this far. We should have had this decision made for the greater good of the nation by experts who had done thorough analysis of the pro's and con's of leaving, not Joe Public basing their vote on what they read in the papers, saw on the TV or heard down the pub.
		
Click to expand...

You don't think calling a certain section of society 'these people' is not condescending? well I do. It just enforces the feeling among the general populace that their views matter less than those higher up the social scale.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.
		
Click to expand...

So you don't believe the public should ever have a referendum? Maybe the tories should'nt have promised one in their manifesto, thereby winning a majority at the general election.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

As for Carney and Osbourne. Of course they could do more. They both have that 'I told you this would happen' attitude. It has happened, now get behind the country and stop talking it down. They are both experts at spin, how about spinning the positives that the opportunities outside the eu will present the country in the future.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			As for Carney and Osbourne. Of course they could do more. They both have that 'I told you this would happen' attitude. It has happened, now get behind the country and stop talking it down. They are both experts at spin, *how about spinning the positives that the opportunities outside the eu will present the country in the future*.
		
Click to expand...

Because as trained economists and experts in their fields they don't believe there are many/any economic benefits?


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			So you don't believe the public should ever have a referendum? Maybe the tories should'nt have *promised one in their manifesto, thereby winning a majority at the general election*.
		
Click to expand...

Do you actually have evidence that that's what actually won them the election? As opposed to all the other items in their manifesto and ineptitude on the part of Labour?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			So you don't believe the public should ever have a referendum?* Maybe the tories should'nt have promised one in their manifesto, thereby winning a majority at the general election.*

Click to expand...

But was the EU referendum a major factor in people voting Tory?  And not the scare stories of SNP pacts with labour and the economy tanking if you voted Labour? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32661502


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			Really?* Maybe you could explain where this will happen for people who have nothing or very little? 
*
For many this nothing or very little could become even less as the price of day to day imports (food being one of the main ones) starts to rise and benefits potentially get cut further.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps if the politicians on both sides had done their jobs, in this case explaining calmly and rationally what the pros and cons were, then the great unwashed would have come to a different conclusion.  Instead the politicians chose to treat the great unwashed as stupid and then the politicians wonder why the great unwashed acted in a manner that the politicians consider is stupidâ€¦..


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because as trained economists and experts in their fields they don't believe there are many/any economic benefits?
		
Click to expand...

Does'nt matter what their personal beliefs are now. They should now be doing what's best for the UK. Talk the country up, not down.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But was the EU referendum a major factor in people voting Tory?  And not the scare stories of SNP pacts with labour and the economy tanking if you voted Labour? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32661502

Click to expand...

Quite possibly all those as well. But the promise of a referendum was a contributing factor.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps if the politicians on both sides had done their jobs, in this case explaining calmly and rationally what the pros and cons were, then the great unwashed would have come to a different conclusion.  Instead the politicians chose to treat the great unwashed as stupid and then the politicians wonder why the great unwashed acted in a manner that the politicians consider is stupidâ€¦..
		
Click to expand...

But it got to the stage where if anyone tried to have sensible conversation about what the economy may do or what companies may do or what the EU may demand in return for us accessing the free market based on best independent research, then they got called scaremongers and we were constantly told not to trust the experts. You can only have rational sensible conversations if the climate exists to have them in. And the conversation was deliberately moved onto immigration by the exiters.

Whilst I agree that both sides told untruths, I would argue in general the leavers had more sensible independent research that pointed out what may well happen if we left, and were promoting the status quo. And the leavers had more emotion rhetoric about saving the NHS this and taking back our sovereignty that and a brave new world. Which is a very crude but effective way of campaiging, as the US may well be shortly finding out as well. But when you get emotional rhetoric preying on peoples basic fears against 'expert' research and forecasts then the emotional rhetoric will win all the time.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps if the politicians on both sides had done their jobs, in this case explaining calmly and rationally what the pros and cons were, then the great unwashed would have come to a different conclusion.  Instead the politicians chose to treat the great unwashed as stupid and then the politicians wonder why the great unwashed acted in a manner that the politicians consider is stupidâ€¦..
		
Click to expand...

Hang on a bit! One side actually did 'do their job'! 

To be fair to the Remain camp, it was a tougher ask to get their message across than the Brexit one. But they were pretty bad at getting their 'Brexit is dangerous' message across effectively! Replicating the Brexit tactic of making outrageous claims was, imo, a very bad move!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



*Does'nt matter what their personal beliefs are now*. They should now be doing what's best for the UK. Talk the country up, not down.
		
Click to expand...

Well it does if the beliefs are based on their expertise.  As an expert in any field you just can't start saying the opposite to what you believe, as you will look foolish.


----------



## ger147 (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it does if the beliefs are based on their expertise.  As an expert in any field you just can't start saying the opposite to what you believe, as you will look foolish.
		
Click to expand...

Not very often you hear George Osborne being accused of being an expert.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it does if the beliefs are based on their expertise.  As an *expert* in any field you just can't start saying the opposite to what you believe, as you will look foolish.
		
Click to expand...

To quote a famous brexetier... We have enough of the experts, what do they know.  They could not predict the 2008 crash, so on your bike all of you.  The British bulldog will not be talked down to.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



*Hang on a bit! One side actually did 'do their job'!* 

To be fair to the Remain camp, it was a tougher ask to get their message across than the Brexit one. But they were pretty bad at getting their 'Brexit is dangerous' message across effectively! Replicating the Brexit tactic of making outrageous claims was, imo, a very bad move!
		
Click to expand...

So which side was that then?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			How do you put a positive vibe on the Â£ losing at least 10% of its value? Do you want him dancing around in a clown suit giggling?
		
Click to expand...

By the way it helps people in the UK sell their products abroad for example.   I don't want him 'dancing around in a clown suit giggling'  and I don't need you putting words in my mouth.  I expect him to explain what the issues facing the economy are and a positive outlook on what he proposes to do about it but not to harp on about how his predictions of Brexit are crystallizing


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			By the way it helps people in the UK sell their products abroad for example.   I don't want him 'dancing around in a clown suit giggling'  and I don't need you putting words in my mouth.  I expect him to explain what the issues facing the economy are and a positive outlook on what he proposes to do about it but not to harp on about *how his predictions of Brexit are crystallizing*

Click to expand...

So effectively leavers, who told us not to trust the experts, are now not happy as the experts seem to have of got the short term implications right??


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			... I expect him to explain what the issues facing the economy are and a positive outlook on what he proposes to do about it but not to harp on about how his predictions of Brexit are *christening*.
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly what he has done!

He identified the Risks - before the referendum. When they '*crystalised*', he stated what had happened (in general terms) and stated what action he had taken to manage them! He's not 'harping on' about anything - simply stating the cause for his/their action!

Absolutely what he should be doing! 

It would be a political step to 'talk up (or down)' any Central Bank intervention - and that's definitely not his role!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			So effectively leavers, who told us not to trust the experts, are now not happy as the experts seem to have of got the short term implications right??
		
Click to expand...

Most of us said there would be an initial cost for Brexit but thought it worth it for the long term gain.  I certainly have said that a number of times.  I was referring to Carney and not what he said but the way he said it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 6, 2016)

I still blame the old people for ruining it for the baby boomers 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rting-to-sound-kind-of-bigoted-20160705110187


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I still blame the old people for ruining it for the baby boomers 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rting-to-sound-kind-of-bigoted-20160705110187

Click to expand...

I prefer this....

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ck-for-independence-day-sequel-20160627109887


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it does if the beliefs are based on their expertise.  As an expert in any field you just can't start saying the opposite to what you believe, as you will look foolish.
		
Click to expand...

So you believe it's alright for them to talk down the country? The two men who have biggest influence on the economy. They may be experts in their field, but that's not very smart is it?


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			So you believe it's alright for them to talk down the country? The two men who have biggest influence on the economy. They may be experts in their field, but that's not very smart is it?
		
Click to expand...

Carney certainly isn't 'talking down the country' though!


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Carney certainly isn't 'talking down the country' though!
		
Click to expand...

He's certainly not been in the least bit upbeat either.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			He's certainly not been in the least bit upbeat either.
		
Click to expand...

So 'not been in the least bit upbeat' means he's 'talking down the country'!

Perhaps you should this - which describes what his role is! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19871420


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			So 'not been in the least bit upbeat' means he's 'talking down the country'!

Perhaps you should this - which describes what his role is! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19871420

Click to expand...

Wow, thank's for that. I don't know what I'd do without people like you showing me the way.
Believe it or not, I am aware of Carney's role.  Does'nt alter that he is the one standing in front of tv camera's looking downbeat, giving off negative vibes about the economy. If himself and Osbourne were to focus on positives, the markets and Sterling would at least have a chance of recovering.


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			So you don't believe the public should ever have a referendum? Maybe the tories should'nt have promised one in their manifesto, thereby winning a majority at the general election.
		
Click to expand...

Not a subject of this matter, many of Joe Public had very little knowledge of the fallout of a leave vote and voted because they don't like the Torries or they think there are too many immigrants. The public were far too ill informed for this sort of referendum IMO


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps if the politicians on both sides had done their jobs, in this case explaining calmly and rationally what the pros and cons were, then the great unwashed would have come to a different conclusion.  Instead the politicians chose to treat the great unwashed as stupid and then the politicians wonder why the great unwashed acted in a manner that the politicians consider is stupidâ€¦..
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't quite call them the great unwashed but yes I agree


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Wow, thank's for that. I don't know what I'd do without people like you showing me the way.
Believe it or not, I am aware of Carney's role.  Does'nt alter that he is the one standing in front of tv camera's looking downbeat, giving off negative vibes about the economy. If himself and Osbourne were to focus on positives, the markets and Sterling would at least have a chance of recovering.
		
Click to expand...

Virtually everything about the current economy IS negative! Hopefully, Sterling will recover - eventually! But if you thought there'd be no immediate downside of a Brexit result, then you were/are seriously deluded! And, as Socket' posted, there are 'advantages' to a lower pound for some areas of the economy!

Btw. Can you please spell the Chancellor's name correctly!!


----------



## IainP (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			Not a subject of this matter, many of Joe Public had very little knowledge of the fallout of a leave vote and voted *because they don't like the Torries *or they think there are too many immigrants. The public were far too ill informed for this sort of referendum IMO
		
Click to expand...

Not following this. Weren't quite a few Tories vocal leavers, whereas Labour remain?
Also aren't Tories widely disliked in Scotland?


----------



## MarkE (Jul 6, 2016)

Val said:



			Not a subject of this matter, many of Joe Public had very little knowledge of the fallout of a leave vote and voted because they don't like the Torries or they think there are too many immigrants. The public were far too ill informed for this sort of referendum IMO
		
Click to expand...

But again, that's intimating that the public are'nt smart enough to work out what is important to themselves and vote accordingly.


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

MarkE said:



			But again, that's intimating that the public are'nt smart enough to work out what is important to themselves and vote accordingly.
		
Click to expand...

Don't you watch the telly? Many people interviewed said those very things


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

IainP said:



			Not following this. Weren't quite a few Tories vocal leavers, whereas Labour remain?
Also aren't Tories widely disliked in Scotland?
		
Click to expand...

I refer you to my post above


----------



## Slime (Jul 6, 2016)

:rant:

I've just had a great idea.
Why don't all those who voted leave, myself included, line up against a wall so that the remainers can shoot us.
Maybe, and only maybe, will they then finally shut the Hell up, stop moaning, stop belittling us all the time and stop blaming us for something that MIGHT happen.
It's getting boring now.

:sbox:


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 6, 2016)

Slime said:



			:rant:

I've just had a great idea.
Why don't all those who voted leave, myself included, line up against a wall so that the remainers can shoot us.
Maybe, and only maybe, will they then finally shut the Hell up, stop moaning, stop belittling us all the time and stop blaming us for something that MIGHT happen.
It's getting boring now.

:sbox:
		
Click to expand...

now why would we shoot you? 
We could pop you on a boat to a non EU country.


----------



## One Planer (Jul 6, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			now why would we shoot you? 
We could pop you on a boat to a non EU country.
		
Click to expand...

Shouldn't it be the other way around?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 6, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Shouldn't it be the other way around?
		
Click to expand...

He wants to leave ... Plus if most of them do we would free up social housing so we can get all these immigrants off the street. Less drain on the benefits system as well. :whoo:


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			How do you put a positive vibe on the Â£ losing at least 10% of its value? Do you want him dancing around in a clown suit giggling?
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			By the way it helps people in the UK sell their products abroad for example.   I don't want him 'dancing around in a clown suit giggling'  and I don't need you putting words in my mouth.  I expect him to explain what the issues facing the economy are and a positive outlook on what he proposes to do about it but not to harp on about how his predictions of Brexit are crystallizing
		
Click to expand...

Where have I put words in your mouth? Or is your first response always so aggressive - take a pill before you bust your bra strap. 

Total exports = Â£14 billion
Total imports = Â£22 billion

A number of those imports include parts that are subsequently used in the product that is exported. *Net* export value is actually lower than Â£14 billion. A (minimum) deficit of Â£8 billion, that is now closer to â‚¬9 billion.

All of a sudden we can export cheaper. Whoopie-do! That's assuming someone wants 2 of everything. "Excuse me monsuier, please can I have 2 English dishwashers."

So the orders of close on Â£42 million currently on our order books has just dropped by â‚¬4.5 million but the cost of Dutch labour, for half of the project, we're using has just gone up by 10%. And we're not a big company in an industry with no margin to play with. 

Another project that was showing minimum margin is now being run at a loss because of the exchange rate... how much collateral damage do you want across a UK manufacturing base that is already struggling? Knob!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 6, 2016)

Bet you Carney would be well chipper if the leavers did ...


----------



## Val (Jul 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Where have I put words in your mouth? Or is your first response always so aggressive - take a pill before you bust your bra strap. 

Total exports = Â£14 billion
Total imports = Â£22 billion

A number of those imports include parts that are subsequently used in the product that is exported. *Net* export value is actually lower than Â£14 billion. A (minimum) deficit of Â£8 billion, that is now closer to â‚¬9 billion.

All of a sudden we can export cheaper. Whoopie-do! That's assuming someone wants 2 of everything. "Excuse me monsuier, please can I have 2 English dishwashers."

So the orders of close on Â£42 million currently on our order books has just dropped by â‚¬4.5 million but the cost of Dutch labour, for half of the project, we're using has just gone up by 10%. And we're not a big company in an industry with no margin to play with. 

Another project that was showing minimum margin is now being run at a loss because of the exchange rate... how much collateral damage do you want across a UK manufacturing base that is already struggling? Knob!
		
Click to expand...

I said this before, trying to put a positive spin on a poor pound stating its good for export is nonsense when your imports far exceed exports especially if those imports are involved in producing items to export.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Where have I put words in your mouth? Or is your first response always so aggressive - take a pill before you bust your bra strap. 

Total exports = Â£14 billion
Total imports = Â£22 billion

A number of those imports include parts that are subsequently used in the product that is exported. *Net* export value is actually lower than Â£14 billion. A (minimum) deficit of Â£8 billion, that is now closer to â‚¬9 billion.

All of a sudden we can export cheaper. Whoopie-do! That's assuming someone wants 2 of everything. "Excuse me monsuier, please can I have 2 English dishwashers."

So the orders of close on Â£42 million currently on our order books has just dropped by â‚¬4.5 million but the cost of Dutch labour, for half of the project, we're using has just gone up by 10%. And we're not a big company in an industry with no margin to play with. 

Another project that was showing minimum margin is now being run at a loss because of the exchange rate... how much collateral damage do you want across a UK manufacturing base that is already struggling? Knob!
		
Click to expand...

second occasion basic economics has been explained with examples and it's gone over their heads ... Explain to them that contributions that give us our welfare system will reduce with the loss of jobs because of these increased business costs and that will go over their heads as well...


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 6, 2016)

Time to get a plan together not argue , what's done is done we are out, end of story.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 6, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Time to get a plan together not argue , what's done is done we are out, end of story.

Click to expand...

I found a boat, all the leavers can get on it and leave ... That's a mighty fine plan


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Where have I put words in your mouth? Or is your first response always so aggressive - take a pill before you bust your bra strap. 

Total exports = Â£14 billion
Total imports = Â£22 billion

A number of those imports include parts that are subsequently used in the product that is exported. *Net* export value is actually lower than Â£14 billion. A (minimum) deficit of Â£8 billion, that is now closer to â‚¬9 billion.

All of a sudden we can export cheaper. Whoopie-do! That's assuming someone wants 2 of everything. "Excuse me monsuier, please can I have 2 English dishwashers."

So the orders of close on Â£42 million currently on our order books has just dropped by â‚¬4.5 million but the cost of Dutch labour, for half of the project, we're using has just gone up by 10%. And we're not a big company in an industry with no margin to play with. 

Another project that was showing minimum margin is now being run at a loss because of the exchange rate... how much collateral damage do you want across a UK manufacturing base that is already struggling? Knob!
		
Click to expand...

By your exaggerated comment which was uncalled for and where was I aggressive.   I have made no rude remarks to you and have not suggested in any way that your comments are not valid or that you are not in any way entitled to them, you were the one making exaggerated remarks.  Maybe you could allow me to express an opinion without reverting to calling me a 'Knob' which is uncalled for.

Our products being cheaper does not only apply only to someone ordering a dishwasher.  To some organisations it makes their products much more attractive  abroad and especially where high batches and low cost are involved. An overvalued pound is not always good for business.  I appreciate that some companies will have difficulties where they work close to the wire with profits but surely you were aware this referendum was coming and there was always a chance of leave winning with the expected market and sterling fluctuations that would inevitably follow.

Also, don't make out you have been all one sided in this, you have made a number of posts criticising the strategies of 'project fear'. I believe you were also saying you would vote leave for some time.  Did you expect the UK returning to being an independent country to be plain sailing.   A cynic knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

8 Billion pounds is around 9.3 Billion Euros.


----------



## Slime (Jul 6, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



*I found a boat, all the leavers can get on it and leave* ... That's a mighty fine plan
		
Click to expand...

I have a better plan!
Put the remainers on the boat. 
You'd have more room as there are fewer of you!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I found a boat, all the leavers can get on it and leave ... That's a mighty fine plan
		
Click to expand...

So what's it called 'Leavey McLeaveface'


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 7, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I found a boat, all the leavers can get on it and leave ... That's a mighty fine plan
		
Click to expand...

That's one mighty big boat and you'll pass all the boat people heading this way.:smirk:


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 7, 2016)

Val said:



			I wouldn't quite call them the great unwashed but yes I agree
		
Click to expand...

Given the tone of the thread towards those who voted leave, and the Urban Dictionary definition, it seemed quite appropriate;

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the great unwashed


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slime said:



			I have a better plan!
Put the remainers on the boat. 
You'd have more room as there are fewer of you!
		
Click to expand...

You missed the small print on the voting card ...


----------



## bobmac (Jul 7, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I found a boat, all the leavers can get on it and leave ... That's a mighty fine plan
		
Click to expand...

The leavers want to leave Europe, not Britain


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 7, 2016)

Val said:



			At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree!!! (Note the ! - 3 must mean I'm really shouting with maybe some finger pointing thrown in for good luck)
The people in a democracy should always make the choice and then their paid employees, the politicians, work out the best way to action it.
Same in Scotland when they eventually vote for independence. Same in Northern Ireland if they want unification.
Similarly, if they vote for the status quo the politicians don't try and force through changes!!!


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I disagree, we need someone to tell it like it is. Sorry if the facts don't suit the rose tinted brexit agenda.
		
Click to expand...

What it is at the moment is exactly the same as it was before the referendum. There should be no reason to panic - if someone had turned around in 2006 and told everyone what was going to happen in 2008 there would have plenty of time to put things right before everything hit the fan.
It's not like the politicos would have run around like headless chickens and made everything 10 times worse.....

Oh, I think I see a flaw in the logic... &#128562;


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

On a slightly different note, the U.K. has always been independent. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the many countries who really had to fight for their independence. Many of them from us, incidentally.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			On a slightly different note, the U.K. has always been independent. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the many countries who really had to fight for their independence. Many of them from us, incidentally.
		
Click to expand...

You are not an independent country when supreme law is not yours and when you have an unelected body external to your borders that are influencing and sometimes controlling your destiny.  Loss of control of who can live in your country is also a loss of independence.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are not an independent country when supreme law is not yours and when you have an unelected body external to your borders that are influencing and sometimes controlling your destiny.  Loss of control of who can live in your country is also a loss of independence.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but this is just parroting ukip/farage hyperbole. We were in a democratic union with our European neighbours and, yes, we elected our representatives to it.

We democratically chose to join and now, sadly IMO, we have democratically chosen to leave. No need to persist with this "independence" claptrap.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sorry but this is just parroting ukip/farage hyperbole. We were in a democratic union with our European neighbours and, yes, we elected our representatives to it.

We democratically chose to join and now, sadly IMO, we have democratically chosen to leave. No need to persist with this "independence" claptrap.
		
Click to expand...

*standing ovation*


----------



## jp5 (Jul 7, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I absolutely disagree!!! (Note the ! - 3 must mean I'm really shouting with maybe some finger pointing thrown in for good luck)
The people in a democracy should always make the choice and then their paid employees, the politicians, work out the best way to action it.
		
Click to expand...

There's a reason that we have a representative democracy.

Wonder how a referendum on how much income tax we pay would go!


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			There's a reason that we have a representative democracy.

Wonder how a referendum on how much income tax we pay would go!
		
Click to expand...

Nice point. But we didn't have a terrible economy before we happily joined the common market. It's the way its been changed, especially over the last 20 years which has upset people.

If you look at life before income tax I think most people will agree it's a modern necessity. But if we had a strong, modern thinking Labour Party there would be a very strong mandate to vastly reduce the tax burden on those same people that voted out of the EU (note that's not a vote out of Europe for all you teenagers). 
Can't see that this generation of Labour MPs are remotely interested in that tho'
&#128521;


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sorry but this is just parroting ukip/farage hyperbole. We were in a democratic union with our European neighbours and, yes, we elected our representatives to it.

We democratically chose to join and now, sadly IMO, we have democratically chosen to leave. No need to persist with this "independence" claptrap.
		
Click to expand...

So who's throwing the insults around now. Your post is typical of people who have a hatred of opposing views.  Saying my view is claptrap is using the hyperbole you are accusing me and others of using.  Try and win your argument with reasoned discussion, have I attacked your integrity anywhere in this debate? 

Regarding our elected representatives,  they cannot even propose laws and  have no sway whatsoever,  at least with  our own UK parliament we have our elected representatives making the decisions and policy without being voted down by foreign cartels.

I won't be so crass to suggest your view to this as claptrap as I respect that you are entitled to it and free to voice it


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			There's a reason that we have a representative democracy.

Wonder how a referendum on how much income tax we pay would go!
		
Click to expand...

So it's unreasonable for Scotland to have a referendum on independence then? Should the decision on that be for Westminster to make?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

Slating your opinion is not the same as besmirching your integrity. 

Just, please, don't use the word "independence". I cringe every time I see it in this context and wonder what countries who struggled to free themselves from British oppression must make of our sad wee country now.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's unreasonable for Scotland to have a referendum on independence then? Should the decision on that be for Westminster to make?
		
Click to expand...

Not that I'm in favour of Scottish independence, your analogy is a poor one. Comparable to suggesting that the EU should have decided whether the uk left or not.


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 7, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Time to get a plan together not argue , what's done is done we are out, end of story.

Click to expand...

Yep lets stop whinging and move forward.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Yep lets stop whinging and move backwards.
		
Click to expand...

In time honoured tradition I have fixed that for you...


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			There's a reason that we have a representative democracy.

Wonder how a referendum on how much income tax we pay would go!
		
Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't mind it being set at 10% of everything for everyone...

NO tax havens no hiding it under the bed etc etc...

We'd be in surplus every year no problem...

But, hey ho that ain't ever gonna happen...


My bad, keep forgetting, "we are in this together"...

Much of 'the great unwashed' voted the way they did because the penny has finally dropped...

'Representative democracy' has failed them...


----------



## sawtooth (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			In time honoured tradition I have fixed that for you... 

Click to expand...

In your opinion FD and you are in the minority who think that way.

The majority of the UK voted leave because they see a brighter future for the UK outside of the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			In your opinion FD and you are in the minority who think that way.
A small majority of those who voted, voted leave because they see a brighter future for the UK outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Corrected that for you


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			In your opinion FD and you are in the minority who think that way.

The majority of the UK voted leave because they see a brighter future for the UK outside of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

In fairness, it was a joke. I've said it before but my support for the eu was always more social and cultural than economic. I genuinely hope the majority have it right on the economics. But I do doubt it, I'm afraid, and the early evidence tends to support that. It is early days though and at some point I'm sure our government will get their heads out of the sand and start thinking about what to do about the mess they've got us into.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 7, 2016)

Val said:



			Don't you watch the telly? Many people interviewed said those very things
		
Click to expand...

But it's one thing admitting yourself that with limited information, you find it difficult to make a choice and being told by others (bitter remainers mainly) that you were too stupid to be trusted with a vote.


----------



## jp5 (Jul 7, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Much of 'the great unwashed' voted the way they did because the penny has finally dropped...

'Representative democracy' has failed them...
		
Click to expand...

I agree that many people have been left behind in recent years / decades, and they've seen this vote as an opportunity to air their displeasure.

What was apparent in the Adrian Chiles programme the other night was how few of the issues raised will be solved by leaving the EU. And in fact may be made worse.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Wonder how a referendum on how much income tax we pay would go!
		
Click to expand...

Probably the same way letting MP's decide their own salaries would go


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not that I'm in favour of Scottish independence, your analogy is a poor one. Comparable to suggesting that the EU should have decided whether the uk left or not.
		
Click to expand...

But I dont advocate that view. It was in response to someone suggesting nothing should be put to a referendum.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Corrupted that for you
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you :smirk:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I agree that many people have been left behind in recent years / decades, and they've seen this vote as an opportunity to air their displeasure.

What was apparent in the Adrian Chiles programme the other night was *how few of the issues raised will be solved by leaving the EU. And in fact may be made worse*.
		
Click to expand...

Aint that just the same in electionions !


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But I dont advocate that view. It was in response to someone suggesting nothing should be put to a referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I know. On both counts. Just the analogy you used didn't really square with the circumstances of the referendum we just had. If you didn't mean to imply such a correlation I can only apologise.


----------



## jp5 (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Aint that just the same in electionions !
		
Click to expand...

Difference is you get a chance to choose again every 5 years!


----------



## jp5 (Jul 7, 2016)

Some hypothetical situations...

"Labour / the Tories didn't deliver what they promised!" -> vote them out

"There isn't Â£350m a week extra for the NHS / there aren't less immigrants / the experts were right on the economy" ->


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Some hypothetical situations...

"Labour / the Tories didn't deliver what they promised!" -> vote them out

"There isn't Â£350m a week extra for the NHS / there aren't less immigrants / the experts were right on the economy" -> 

Click to expand...

There's a debate going on in the lords about whether there should be a second referendum once the exit deal has been negotiated. In that way people would know exactly what they are voting for. It seems a sensible suggestion to me but, of course my bias is well known.

Alternatively, you take the recent vote as sacrosanct but ask the public to validate the negotiated deal. A yes vote means ok we leave on those terms. A no vote means we're still leaving but you need to renegotiate. 

My guess in the latter scenario is that the politicians will never be able to negotiate a deal the public will sign off.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			What was apparent in the Adrian Chiles programme the other night was how few of the issues raised will be solved by leaving the EU. And in fact may be made worse.
		
Click to expand...


Downside of working evenings is I miss out on some worthy programming... Have been told, by another, it's worth a watch so will try to do so on Iplayer over week end...


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			There's a debate going on in the lords about whether there should be a second referendum once the exit deal has been negotiated. In that way people would know exactly what they are voting for. It seems a sensible suggestion to me but, of course my bias is well known.

Alternatively, you take the recent vote as sacrosanct but ask the public to validate the negotiated deal. A yes vote means ok we leave on those terms. A no vote means we're still leaving but you need to renegotiate. 

My guess in the latter scenario is that the politicians will never be able to negotiate a deal the public will sign off.
		
Click to expand...

Unsure just exactly what that (another referendum) would really achieve! Much of the 'damage' to the economy would already have been done and the EU negotiators could (and probably should?) use the prospect of a rejection of a 'poor' deal to the disadvantage of UK's position - either by negotiating a 'bad' deal for UK that was accepted, or by 'forcing' a Remain vote in the subsequent referendum!


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Unsure just exactly what that (another referendum) would really achieve! Much of the 'damage' to the economy would already have been done and the EU negotiators could (and probably should?) use the prospect of a rejection of a 'poor' deal to the disadvantage of UK's position - either by negotiating a 'bad' deal for UK that was accepted, or by 'forcing' a Remain vote in the subsequent referendum!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah.... We're in a hole and there's no easy way out.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yeah.... We're in a hole and there's no easy way out. 

Click to expand...

Absolutely!

I am a confirmed Remainer but the result is the result and as a nation we must all do whatever we can to make a post Brexit UK work.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Difference is you get a chance to choose again every 5 years!
		
Click to expand...

Which you don't get with the EU


----------



## vkurup (Jul 7, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Absolutely!

I am a confirmed Remainer but the result is the result and as a nation we must all do whatever we can to make a post Brexit UK work.

Click to expand...

Same here, we need to get on...  
1) but what frustrates me is that the Leavers still are in denial that this could be tough, have a rose tinted view on our ability and want to kick anyone who is holding a mirror 
2) Hate the uncertainty of what is going on.  The only reality right now is gloom; yet to see a good news story.  <pl spare me the notion that a collapsing sterling is good for exporters - it is too early to get that data>
3) We also need to remember that we are *still* a Parliamentary democracy.  We need to ensure that the Parliament follows the due process of having listened to the people, have a proper debate and then decide (secretly hope/pray that Parliament decides to Remain thus putting the national well being ahead of individual's political ambitions)


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yes, I know. On both counts. Just the analogy you used didn't really square with the circumstances of the referendum we just had. If you didn't mean to imply such a correlation I can only apologise.
		
Click to expand...

It was a simple reply to a point saying we should never have referendums.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Same here, we need to get on...  
1) but what frustrates me is that the Leavers still are in denial that this could be tough, have a rose tinted view on our ability and want to kick anyone who is holding a mirror 
2) Hate the uncertainty of what is going on.  The only reality right now is gloom; yet to see a good news story.  <pl spare me the notion that a collapsing sterling is good for exporters - it is too early to get that data>
3) We also need to remember that we are *still* a Parliamentary democracy.  We need to ensure that the Parliament follows the due process of having listened to the people, have a proper debate and then decide (secretly hope/pray that Parliament decides to Remain thus putting the national well being ahead of individual's political ambitions)
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have missed the point.made many times that we can expect some initial pain for things to get better.
You are also missing the point that the pm does not need a Parliamentary vote to begin the leave process.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 7, 2016)

Does the PM need a Parliamentary vote for invoking Article 50...   This is not clear.
>>Brexiters argue that PM could do it under royal prerogative  >> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...iament-vote-article-50-government-lawyers-say 

but be ready for being challenged in the supreme court on the validity of that + have the broad shoulders to be 'personally' responsible for taking the UK out of the EU
>> https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/201...le-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

The last time I checked where a PM rode roughshod over Parliament, he was subject of an damning inquiry report this week.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 7, 2016)

If you're looking for a new job you carry on with your current one whilst talking to other companies. Then you confirm the offer in writing. 
And THEN you hand in your notice.
Anyone who does it the other way round is a Dick.

Still haven't forgiven Cameron for being a Dick.

Just saying.......


----------



## ger147 (Jul 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Does the PM need a Parliamentary vote for invoking Article 50...   This is not clear.
>>Brexiters argue that PM could do it under royal prerogative  >> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...iament-vote-article-50-government-lawyers-say 

but be ready for being challenged in the supreme court on the validity of that + have the broad shoulders to be 'personally' responsible for taking the UK out of the EU
>> https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/201...le-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

The last time I checked where a PM rode roughshod over Parliament, he was subject of an damning inquiry report this week.
		
Click to expand...

Parliament voted in favour of that particular war with the PM in question, so not a great example to use of a PM riding roughshod over parliament as the exact opposite is true in that example...


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 7, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Parliament voted in favour of that particular war with the PM in question, so not a great example to use of a PM riding roughshod over parliament as the exact opposite is true in that example...
		
Click to expand...

Although it would appears to be another fine example of a politician, or politicians, being economical with the truth.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to have missed the point.made many times that we can expect some initial pain for things to get better.
You are also missing the point that the pm does not need a Parliamentary vote to begin the leave process.
		
Click to expand...

I am beginning to see some advantages in Brexit.

De-valued pound makes exports and inward tourism much cheaper.
Drastic fall in house prices enables new buyers a foot on the ladder.
Movement of financial institutions from London offers the opportunity to change their luxury offices into low cost community housing.
Population exodus from London will relieve congestion and allow golfers to get to their courses easier.
Canceling silly projects like HS2 and 4th Heathrow airport will save billions and help air quality.
Food price rise and shortages due to insufficient workers and dearer imports will help our overweight citizens lose weight.

There seems no end to this list


----------



## vkurup (Jul 7, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Parliament voted in favour of that particular war with the PM in question, so not a great example to use of a PM riding roughshod over parliament as the exact opposite is true in that example...
		
Click to expand...

Luckily unlike this time the basis of the vote was based on half truth, personal ambition rather than impact on society, a rosy view of how the world would be a better place without having thought through the long term impacts, not being responsible for the aftermath and the consequences of the actions etc.   Surely we would never do such a thing...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am beginning to see some advantages in Brexit.

De-valued pound makes exports and inward tourism much cheaper.
Drastic fall in house prices enables new buyers a foot on the ladder.
Movement of financial institutions from London offers the opportunity to change their luxury offices into low cost community housing.
Population exodus from London will relieve congestion and allow golfers to get to their courses easier.
Canceling silly projects like HS2 and 4th Heathrow airport will save billions and help air quality.
Food price rise and shortages due to insufficient workers and dearer imports will help our overweight citizens lose weight.

There seems no end to this list
		
Click to expand...

Can you enlighten me as to why you quoted my post.   It seems to have no relevance to what you posted.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 7, 2016)

Val said:



			At the end of the day that is what they were elected to do, wholeheartedly agree that Joe Public shouldnt have had this vote.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like the Indy vote really, has Joe Public living in Scotland enough information and ability to decide such a major issue. Let's leave it to Westminister and the 650 paid up experts to make the decision .


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Bit like the Indy vote really, has Joe Public living in Scotland enough information and ability to decide such a major issue. Let's leave it to Westminister and the 650 paid up experts to make the decision .
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree with this but, if it was, you are delegating the decision to the wrong parliament. Just as I wrongly assumed socket did earlier.


----------



## IainP (Jul 7, 2016)

Wow, this thread has legs. We may need a second referendum just to justify its existence 

Not directly related, but UK will definitely have a female PM then. Don't know why it needs to take so long for members to decide through.
Assume Clinton is just about favourite for the hot seat in the US.
Just an observation, no more, no less.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't agree with this but, if it was, you are delegating the decision to the wrong parliament. Just as I wrongly assumed socket did earlier.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think the Scottish Parliament should take the decision to leave the UK without referendum?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think the Scottish Parliament should take the decision to leave the UK without referendum?
		
Click to expand...

Of course not!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 7, 2016)

Do you think the leavers can lead by example and work through this ? Set an example build their new utopia?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you think the leavers can lead by example and work through this ? Set an example build their new utopia?
		
Click to expand...

The signs are not encouraging.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Of course not!
		
Click to expand...

So referendums do have their place in democracy.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you think the leavers can lead by example and work through this ? Set an example build their new utopia?
		
Click to expand...

I guess you mean the new government.  The Leavers are the majority that voted to leave the EU, they obviously wont be 'leading by example and working through this'  Thats what we pay our elected representatives to do for us.  

'Setting an example and building a new Utopia' is an emotional and cynical statement that you seem prone to.   Try and debate without this vitriolic outpouring, your points may be better considered and replied to if you did.


----------



## Imurg (Jul 8, 2016)

We need to get away from the labeling - Leaver/Remainer...it's old news
We're all Leavers now whether we like it or not
Labeling just engenders division.
We are The UK.....


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you mean the new government.  The Leavers are the majority that voted to leave the EU, they obviously wont be 'leading by example and working through this'  Thats what we pay our elected representatives to do for us.  

'Setting an example and building a new Utopia' is an emotional and cynical statement that you seem prone to.   Try and debate without this vitriolic outpouring, your points may be better considered and replied to if you did.
		
Click to expand...

You missed the the point of the question, I am not talking about the government I am talking about the voters....


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			We need to get away from the labeling - Leaver/Remainer...it's old news
We're all Leavers now whether we like it or not
Labeling just engenders division.
We are The UK.....
		
Click to expand...

I would rather keep them, it's like saying all Germans were nazis ( which may be a strong analogy but some of us don't care to be classified the same)


----------



## Imurg (Jul 8, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I would rather keep them, it's like saying all Germans were nazis ( which may be a strong analogy but some of us don't care to be classified the same)
		
Click to expand...

Then the Country will never be able to move on.
We'll be shackled with brackets and either the word Leaver or Remainer after our names for all eternity.

Continual moaning one way or the other isn't going to change anything.
Unless we all start going in the same direction UK will be in an even worse state.

My last post on any Political thread if I can help it.......


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Then the Country will never be able to move on.
We'll be shackled with brackets and either the word Leaver or Remainer after our names for all eternity.

Continual moaning one way or the other isn't going to change anything.
Unless we all start going in the same direction UK will be in an even worse state.

My last post on any Political thread if I can help it.......
		
Click to expand...

Bet you do


----------



## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you think the leavers can lead by example and work through this ? Set an example build their new utopia?
		
Click to expand...

While they do this, the other half of the country are sat on their collective arse, moaning, and not helping. That's useful. Really useful.
And what we had in the EU was hardly Utopia either. It had huge faults, and that's why a majority voted to leave it.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So referendums do have their place in democracy.
		
Click to expand...

I think you're arguing with the wrong person on this one.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			While they do this, the other half of the country are sat on their collective arse, moaning, and not helping. That's useful. Really useful.
And what we had in the EU was hardly Utopia either. It had huge faults, and that's why a majority voted to leave it.
		
Click to expand...

Helping? Help with what? The leaders of the leavers have done what they do best - screwed things up and run away. Nothing seems to be happening at all. No plan, no leadership, no clue.

Wishful thinking that remainders are going to just suck it up and join in with that shambles. The current situation will persist at least until the government start tackling the implications of the vote. If we're all still bitching about it once "progress" starts being made you might have a point but we seem a long way from that stage.


----------



## bobmac (Jul 8, 2016)

To those who wanted to remain........
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THHE MINDS OF THOSE WHO WANTED TO LEAVE

To those who wanted to leave........
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF THOSE WHO WANTED TO REMAIN

All this bickeri......... sorry debating, is not going to change one iota.

To those who wanted to remain........
I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to Cameron, get it all off your chest and then move on with your life because like it or not, WE ARE LEAVING THE EU. 

The alternative is to moan, winge and stir up trouble in the hope that Britain goes down the toilet, just so you can say ''I told you so''


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am beginning to see some advantages in Brexit.

De-valued pound makes exports and inward tourism much cheaper.
Drastic fall in house prices enables new buyers a foot on the ladder.
Movement of financial institutions from London offers the opportunity to change their luxury offices into low cost community housing.
Population exodus from London will relieve congestion and allow golfers to get to their courses easier.
Canceling silly projects like HS2 and 4th Heathrow airport will save billions and help air quality.
Food price rise and shortages due to insufficient workers and dearer imports will help our overweight citizens lose weight.

There seems no end to this list
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexiters-excuses-increasingly-bollocks-20160707110366


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 8, 2016)

bobmac said:



			To those who wanted to remain........
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THHE MINDS OF THOSE WHO WANTED TO LEAVE

To those who wanted to leave........
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF THOSE WHO WANTED TO REMAIN

All this bickeri......... sorry debating, is not going to change one iota.

To those who wanted to remain........
I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to Cameron, get it all off your chest and then move on with your life because like it or not, WE ARE LEAVING THE EU. 

The alternative is to moan, winge and stir up trouble in the hope that Britain goes down the toilet, just so you can say ''I told you so''
		
Click to expand...

As a dedicated Remainer (who hasn't moaned even once thank you very much), I should just raise 2 points. 

1. It most certainly is not set in stone that "WE ARE LEAVING THE EU."  There is a strong possibility that Article 50 will never be initiated. 

2. Remainers aren't the only ones who are maneuvering themselves into a position whereby they can claim some sort of moral victory if the economy tanks. There are plenty of posts on here stating that all the negative talk from some of the Remain camp may itself cause the market to contract. If enough people believe this claptrap then the Leave camp are in a Win/Win position. If the economy strengthens, it's because we left the EU. If the economy flounders it's because of the Remainers negative attitudes. 

Personally, I think we should just get on with it and initiate Article 50. I'm sick to the back teeth of the whiny, self indulgent attitudes of a minority of both camps. It was voted for, so just get on with doing what you've been told to do.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 8, 2016)

I was certainly very upset by the vote but, after a few days, I got past that and accepted the result and that we are out. What outrages me now is that we are in limbo due to the complete lack of leadership as the tories jostle for position to turn this fiasco to their personal advantage.

Bob is right, I'll never change my mind that it was the wrong decision but it is what it is and the longer we delay the worse things will be. 

What we have done is the equivalent of a stroppy teenager telling his parents he hates them before running off to his room and refusing to come out.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Helping? Help with what? The leaders of the leavers have done what they do best - screwed things up and run away. Nothing seems to be happening at all. No plan, no leadership, no clue.

Wishful thinking that remainders are going to just suck it up and join in with that shambles. The current situation will persist at least until the government start tackling the implications of the vote. If we're all still bitching about it once "progress" starts being made you might have a point but we seem a long way from that stage.
		
Click to expand...

Cameron stood at the last election on the idea that thought the UK was better in the EU but was perfectly capable of working outside it if he couldn't get the deal we needed, promising to call a referendum and lead us through to the next election before standing down.
He got voted in. He made his best deal. He called his referendum. 
One "Why should I deal with this mess" later..
He throws his toys out of the pram and sits in the corner sucking his thumb doing sweet FA.
Why should he deal with it?
BECAUSE IT'S YOUR BLOODY JOB!!!
He's  the man in place. He's the one with the relationship with these people. He should be setting the ground rules for the negotiations - both candidates will need them.
He could be sending envoys to India and China - we'll need to talk to them pretty soon.
How about a quick working holiday to the US?
Obama isn't going to be in power for much longer but he still gets out of bed every day and goes to work. And if Russia invades he'll deal with it. He won't say come back next year when we have a new leader.
Rant? Moi? I couldn't possibly say &#128518;


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2016)

Why does it take the Conservative party 2 months to choose between 2 people? Two weeks, yes, two months no. That is creating a power vacuum that is allowing the uncertainty to occur. We need a new leader, invoke article 50 the day after the new cabinet is announced with a minister for Brexit in charge of a team of negotiators. We are only waiting until September as that fits in with the Conservative party conference. Utterly selfish and self indulgent.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2016)

Everyone seems to have forgotten that our MP's have a couple of months of holidays to come first.
Don't worry, they will sort out the meltdown of the UK once they come back.

It will all be over by Christmas, honest.


----------



## Slime (Jul 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			We need to get away from the labeling - Leaver/Remainer...it's old news
*We're all Leavers now whether we like it or not
Labeling just engenders division.
We are The UK*.....
		
Click to expand...

:clap:

100% Correct ............................... like it or not.
Let's all work together and see where it takes us!


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Everyone seems to have forgotten that our MP's have a couple of months of holidays to come first.
Don't worry, they will sort out the meltdown of the UK once they come back.

It will all be over by Christmas, honest.
		
Click to expand...

The meltdown or the holiday?

:thup:


----------



## jp5 (Jul 8, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to Cameron, get it all off your chest and then move on with your life because like it or not, WE ARE LEAVING THE EU.
		
Click to expand...

Given that the first opportunity to leave the EU has already been missed I wouldn't be so sure!


----------



## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2016)

Surely before article 50 is invoked, the UK needs to investigate which is the best and preferred exit model. This will take time, and needs to be the correct option. Only when this is decided should actual exit be even considered. To start the two year exit clock ticking now would be very stupid.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Surely before article 50 is invoked, the UK needs to investigate which is the best and preferred exit model. This will take time, and needs to be the correct option. Only when this is decided should actual exit be even considered. *To start the two year exit clock ticking now would be very stupid*.
		
Click to expand...

So from experience of the past 2 weeks we'll be invoking it any day now.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Surely before article 50 is invoked, the UK needs to investigate which is the best and preferred exit model. This will take time, and needs to be the correct option. Only when this is decided should actual exit be even considered. To start the two year exit clock ticking now would be very stupid.
		
Click to expand...

isn't the preferred model  'access to the Free Market and control of immigration'.   I know this is asking a lot to be realised but I would say it has to be the starting point for negotiations.


----------



## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			isn't the preferred model  'access to the Free Market and control of immigration'.   I know this is asking a lot to be realised but I would say it has to be the starting point for negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

Sure, but that's not going to happen. It's just not going to be that simple.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			isn't the preferred model  'access to the Free Market and control of immigration'.   I know this is asking a lot to be realised but I would say it has to be the starting point for negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's pretty much the _only_ important negotiating point for the time being.

But I also think that was exactly what Cameron would have had to back to the EU with if we had voted to stay in anyway.

I've said it somewhere else before, but I don't think the basis of the agreement is hard either:
Free immigration is only available if the person is coming to a job already in place and contracted. Other than that people can come looking for work but only for 12 months without finding one. 
Immigration figures come down - temporary migrant figures go up.

It's only a starting point, but it's an immediate face saver for the Tories, and in theory it gives us sovereignty over anyone not coming to a job. Same as the Australian method (sort of). Benefits, access to the NHS etc can easily follow on once we get started talking.

We just have to get started talking.......


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			You missed the the point of the question, I am not talking about the government I am talking about the voters....
		
Click to expand...

I dont believe I did.  The 'Leavers' as you call them were asked to vote on their preference to stay or leave the EU, it's not for the great unwashed to then carry through the process of making that happen or to run the country, as I explained we employ our representatives to do that for us.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Sure, but that's not going to happen. It's just not going to be that simple.
		
Click to expand...

Oh ye of little faith. Give me a Teresa May wig, access to the government drinks cabinet and a few meetings with the EU leaders and I'll get some photos we can use to guarantee it.

:cheers:


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			.....we employ our representatives to do that for us.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, had to laugh at that bit.

I don't think they think they have any obligation to do that at all.

I would suggest asking them, but I don't think there are any left around to ask.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Sure, but that's not going to happen. It's just not going to be that simple.
		
Click to expand...

But it that simple and has to be the starting point for negotiations.   Cameron tried asking for what he thought he might get away with last time he went to the EU and didn't even come close to getting that, although I expect a number of people in the EU are probably wishing they had been a bit more generous now.    If you went into your boss for a wage increase you wouldn't start asking for something less that you want.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you went into your boss for a wage increase you wouldn't start asking for something less that you want.
		
Click to expand...

No, what I'd do is get a job offer from another company and take it to my boss with my resignation letter and start talking.

I wouldn't go in there saying: "I'm off - I really mean it.......I do you know.......any second now - once I go through that door I'm off - I am....There's plenty of people out there who would love to have me. Just you wait...."


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			No, what I'd do is get a job offer from another company and take it to my boss with my resignation letter and start talking.

I wouldn't go in there saying: "I'm off - I really mean it.......I do you know.......any second now - once I go through that door I'm off - I am....There's plenty of people out there who would love to have me. Just you wait...."
		
Click to expand...


Shut the door on the way out :smirk:


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			isn't the preferred model  'access to the Free Market and control of immigration'.   I know this is asking a lot to be realised but I would say it has to be the starting point for negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

Er....That's more like the 're-entry' model! And the quotes are because it's not meant to be re-entry, simply access!

However, I'm pessimistic about the likelihood of achieving access without considerable cost and very pessimistic bout the likelihood of achieving the 'control of immigration' that Leavers (or at least that campaign's leaders) were after! 

The 'Norway model' requires a considerable contribution and still requires 'freedom of movement'! The Swiss 'model' is still a work in progress after 30+ years!

So the question then becomes...What does the UK do when the EU states 'no free access without Freedom of Movement' - a position I'm certain will be their starting point! Does it simply apply the WTO tariff rules? If so, that would require considerable expenditure from exporters, importers and the government to administer - avoiding such costs is one of the major reason to have free trade agreements!

And, of course, UK would still have to use EU standards/regulation for such exports! 

All this without the ability to actually influence the regulation/law-makers in the first place!

A pretty weak negotiation imo!


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er....That's more like the 're-entry' model! And the quotes are because it's not meant to be re-entry, simply access!

However, I'm pessimistic about the likelihood of achieving access without considerable cost and very pessimistic bout the likelihood of achieving the 'control of immigration' that Leavers (or at least that campaign's leaders) were after! 

The 'Norway model' requires a considerable contribution and still requires 'freedom of movement'! The Swiss 'model' is still a work in progress after 30+ years!

So the question then becomes...What does the UK do when the EU states 'no free access without Freedom of Movement' - a position I'm certain will be their starting point! Does it simply apply the WTO tariff rules? If so, that would require considerable expenditure from exporters, importers and the government to administer - avoiding such costs is one of the major reason to have free trade agreements!

And, of course, UK would still have to use EU standards/regulation for such exports! 

All this without the ability to actually influence the regulation/law-makers in the first place!

A pretty weak negotiation imo!
		
Click to expand...

But if you go in with that attitude you'll come out with nothing.
Go in strong and we can always move our stance.
Germany needs to sell us cars.
France wants to declare war.
Spain wants all the money from our tourists.
So we go in offering what they want as long as it's win/win
If we also go in with an outline of a deal with Korea for them to manufacture a 3 series substitute and who knows what we come out with.
Research, planning and cahunas.

All things lacking in our politicians.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

Oh and as for immigration...All the Brexitiers have happily pointed out that they never promised an immediate drop in numbers, just that it would controlled under our sovereignty - not that of the EU. There are easy short term wins there.- we just start actively looking at non EU criteria and then agree a 5 year meaningless target with Merkel.

Pass me the meerkat


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			But if you go in with that attitude you'll come out with nothing.
Go in strong and we can always move our stance.
Germany needs to sell us cars.
France wants to declare war.
Spain wants all the money from our tourists.
So we go in offering what they want as long as it's win/win
If we also go in with an outline of a deal with Korea for them to manufacture a 3 series substitute and who knows what we come out with.
Research, planning and cahunas.

All things lacking in our politicians.
		
Click to expand...




Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Oh and as for immigration...All the Brexitiers have happily pointed out that they never promised an immediate drop in numbers, just that it would controlled under our sovereignty - not that of the EU. There are easy short term wins there.- we just start actively looking at non EU criteria and then agree a 5 year meaningless target with Merkel.

Pass me the meerkat
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should return to the non-real world you seem to come from! 

Or apply to be part of the negotiating team!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er....That's more like the 're-entry' model! And the quotes are because it's not meant to be re-entry, simply access!

However, I'm pessimistic about the likelihood of achieving access without considerable cost and very pessimistic bout the likelihood of achieving the 'control of immigration' that Leavers (or at least that campaign's leaders) were after! 

The 'Norway model' requires a considerable contribution and still requires 'freedom of movement'! The Swiss 'model' is still a work in progress after 30+ years!

So the question then becomes...What does the UK do when the EU states 'no free access without Freedom of Movement' - a position I'm certain will be their starting point! Does it simply apply the WTO tariff rules? If so, that would require considerable expenditure from exporters, importers and the government to administer - avoiding such costs is one of the major reason to have free trade agreements!

And, of course, UK would still have to use EU standards/regulation for such exports! 

All this without the ability to actually influence the regulation/law-makers in the first place!

A pretty weak negotiation imo!
		
Click to expand...

I always love the 'go in strong'.. I agree with the philosophy.. but it needs to be grounded in reality too.  The positioning that UK finds itself as described by you is indeed weak.  Yes the continent wants us to buy their wines and cars.  The most likely outcome 
1) UK will get access to single market
2) We will need to comply with all EU trade related regulations in order to serve the markets. We will try and protect London's financial status. 
3) UK will need to concede to free movement of people (sorry to burst that bubble, but there will be plenty of spin) similar to the Norway model
4) The compromise to free movement would be that the free movement will only be available to those in existing EU nations (Brexiters/Farage will claim that they stopped Turkey) 
5) We may not have to follow all parts of EU regulations e.g. Human Rights? which ironically UK helped write
6) We will still have to pay EU a fee similar to Norway (Brexiters will claim victory that we no longer have to spend Â£350m).  The money we saved will be spent in setting up the Ministry of Brexit.
7) We are unlikely to get the funding that EU currently hands out to UK to support deprived areas or Science/R&D.  I agree we have a good scientific/R&D basis in the UK.  This was provided by an nett surplus support of Â£300m each year.  

The alternatives i.e. WTO and Swiss/Canada model are worse case scenarios for the UK at the moment.   Before I am (again) touted as someone who keeps crying about doom then the Govt has some options too

1) Reduce Corporation tax to Ireland levels.  Osborne has already fired the first missile on this one.  The Irish finance minister has been quoted in the BBC that while UK can reduce Corporation tax, but unlike Ireland, they wont have access to the EU!!!
2) Plug the budgetary shortfall 
a) increase income tax.  
b) Cut spending further
c) Cut benefits 
d) Increase VAT
Given that we are all Brexiteiers now and in this together, so a,b,c,d should be a breeze. 

3) Cut interest rates to help boost consumption and/or reduce mortgage payments
4) Further quant easing, but run the risk of sterling devaluing
5) Raise anti-dumping on everyone - Chinese steel, Indian IT workers, Brazilian coffee etc.
6) Reduce minimum wage thresholds, income tax slabs, sell more of British gold
The list is endless..   so not really doom and gloom everywhere..


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps you should return to the non-real world you seem to come from! 

Or apply to be part of the negotiating team! 

Click to expand...

I didn't say that is the result we'll get but the principle is simple.
We're selling the UK so we have to find what they want. Then we use it to get the best deal on what we want. Those examples I gave came after at least 3 seconds thinking. If you gave me a whole team of civil servants and access to all the conversations that Cameron has had since he became PM I could do even better. And so could Cameron himself if he'd  get off his backside and do some work.
Many members of the EU quite like having us around. I assume some of them even like him. Without us the single market isn't the largest in the world. Another conversation to be had. 
You don't need an idiot like me but you do need someone with enthusiasm and empathy to talk to them, actively listen and then work out what both sides want. Then you get the intelligent people like vkurup to sort out the details.

As with any sale. The first thing you have to do is pick up the phone.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I always love the 'go in strong'.. I agree with the philosophy.. but it needs to be grounded in reality too.  The positioning that UK finds itself as described by you is indeed weak.  Yes the continent wants us to buy their wines and cars.  The most likely outcome 
1) UK will get access to single market
2) We will need to comply with all EU trade related regulations in order to serve the markets. We will try and protect London's financial status. 
3) UK will need to concede to free movement of people (sorry to burst that bubble, but there will be plenty of spin) similar to the Norway model
4) The compromise to free movement would be that the free movement will only be available to those in existing EU nations (Brexiters/Farage will claim that they stopped Turkey) 
5) We may not have to follow all parts of EU regulations e.g. Human Rights? which ironically UK helped write
6) We will still have to pay EU a fee similar to Norway (Brexiters will claim victory that we no longer have to spend Â£350m).  The money we saved will be spent in setting up the Ministry of Brexit.
7) We are unlikely to get the funding that EU currently hands out to UK to support deprived areas or Science/R&D.  I agree we have a good scientific/R&D basis in the UK.  This was provided by an nett surplus support of Â£300m each year.  

The alternatives i.e. WTO and Swiss/Canada model are worse case scenarios for the UK at the moment.   Before I am (again) touted as someone who keeps crying about doom then the Govt has some options too

1) Reduce Corporation tax to Ireland levels.  Osborne has already fired the first missile on this one.  The Irish finance minister has been quoted in the BBC that while UK can reduce Corporation tax, but unlike Ireland, they wont have access to the EU!!!
2) Plug the budgetary shortfall 
a) increase income tax.  
b) Cut spending further
c) Cut benefits 
d) Increase VAT
Given that we are all Brexiteiers now and in this together, so a,b,c,d should be a breeze. 

3) Cut interest rates to help boost consumption and/or reduce mortgage payments
4) Further quant easing, but run the risk of sterling devaluing
5) Raise anti-dumping on everyone - Chinese steel, Indian IT workers, Brazilian coffee etc.
6) Reduce minimum wage thresholds, income tax slabs, sell more of British gold
The list is endless..   so not really doom and gloom everywhere..
		
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree with your reasoning, but not your options - or at least not all/many of them! Eg, It's pretty difficult to 'lower interest rates' from their current position without going negative! Boosting consumption - especially of 'foreign goods' would likely cause more problems than it would solve - as the deficit would increase by that amount! Increased cost of imports, that a lower value pound has generated, is likely to reduce consumption/deficit - provided there are home-grown products that are alternatives. QE may be a good policy short term, but has huge inflationary risk if used long-term!

Better to negotiate restriction of 'freedom of movement' immigration even further imo - by country would be ideal - though the practicality and likelihood of success of that approach is pretty low! Simply applying the current non-EU points-based system with a 'bonus for EU members' might be an approach but FofM is so basic to EU's approach that I doubt whether it would be acceptable.

Btw. You still seem to be under the illusion that ECHR legislation (that UK helped to write) is an EU piece! It is not! While the EU refers to it in its own version (now there's an example of where I think the EU is wrong and daft!) it is NOT EU controlled. Accession of EU to ECHR is an ongoing issue! ECJ 'rejected' it, but there are move to make it acceptable to that body. Compliance to ECHR rulings is still required as part of the Lisbon Treaty though.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I always love the 'go in strong'.. I agree with the philosophy.. but it needs to be grounded in reality too.  The positioning that UK finds itself as described by you is indeed weak.  Yes the continent wants us to buy their wines and cars.  The most likely outcome 
1) UK will get access to single market
2) We will need to comply with all EU trade related regulations in order to serve the markets. We will try and protect London's financial status. 
3) UK will need to concede to free movement of people (sorry to burst that bubble, but there will be plenty of spin) similar to the Norway model
4) The compromise to free movement would be that the free movement will only be available to those in existing EU nations (Brexiters/Farage will claim that they stopped Turkey) 
5) We may not have to follow all parts of EU regulations e.g. Human Rights? which ironically UK helped write
6) We will still have to pay EU a fee similar to Norway (Brexiters will claim victory that we no longer have to spend Â£350m).  The money we saved will be spent in setting up the Ministry of Brexit.
7) We are unlikely to get the funding that EU currently hands out to UK to support deprived areas or Science/R&D.  I agree we have a good scientific/R&D basis in the UK.  This was provided by an nett surplus support of Â£300m each year.  

The alternatives i.e. WTO and Swiss/Canada model are worse case scenarios for the UK at the moment.   Before I am (again) touted as someone who keeps crying about doom then the Govt has some options too

1) Reduce Corporation tax to Ireland levels.  Osborne has already fired the first missile on this one.  The Irish finance minister has been quoted in the BBC that while UK can reduce Corporation tax, but unlike Ireland, they wont have access to the EU!!!
2) Plug the budgetary shortfall 
a) increase income tax.  
b) Cut spending further
c) Cut benefits 
d) Increase VAT
Given that we are all Brexiteiers now and in this together, so a,b,c,d should be a breeze. 

3) Cut interest rates to help boost consumption and/or reduce mortgage payments
4) Further quant easing, but run the risk of sterling devaluing
5) Raise anti-dumping on everyone - Chinese steel, Indian IT workers, Brazilian coffee etc.
6) Reduce minimum wage thresholds, income tax slabs, sell more of British gold
The list is endless..   so not really doom and gloom everywhere..
		
Click to expand...

I believe that Cameron would have been happy with your points 1-4 after his pre-referendum negotiations.
I see no reason why the EU wouldn't leap at them now.
There's definitely a deal to be done.

There's no will anywhere in parliament for anything other than the slightest evolutionary change they can get away with.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			...Those examples I gave came after at least 3 seconds thinking.
....
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't surprise me!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2016)

Will we get duty free back?? Surely that is a good thing as everyone loves a couple of quid off some Pagan Man aftershave and a bottle of Liebfraumilch. 

I'm surprised Mark Carney has not bigged that one up whilst wearing a squirty bow tie and clown wig, spreading some positive happy vibes.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I'm inclined to agree with your reasoning, *but not your options - or at least not all/many of them*! Eg, It's pretty difficult to 'lower interest rates' from their current position without going negative! Boosting consumption - especially of 'foreign goods' would likely cause more problems than it would solve - as the deficit would increase by that amount! Increased cost of imports, that a lower value pound has generated, is likely to reduce consumption/deficit - provided there are home-grown products that are alternatives. QE may be a good policy short term, but has huge inflationary risk if used long-term!

Better to negotiate restriction of 'freedom of movement' immigration even further imo - by country would be ideal - though the practicality and likelihood of success of that approach is pretty low! Simply applying the current non-EU points-based system with a 'bonus for EU members' might be an approach but FofM is so basic to EU's approach that I doubt whether it would be acceptable.

Btw. You still seem to be under the illusion that ECHR legislation (that UK helped to write) is an EU piece! It is not! While the EU refers to it in its own version (now there's an example of where I think the EU is wrong and daft!) it is NOT EU controlled. Accession of EU to ECHR is an ongoing issue! ECJ 'rejected' it, but there are move to make it acceptable to that body. Compliance to ECHR rulings is still required as part of the Lisbon Treaty though.
		
Click to expand...

I dont agree with all the options either!! but they are options neverthless and some of them have either short or medium term ramification e.g. inflation, devaluation, impact on bond market, joblessness. I think the market has already started baking in an interest rate cut. While this will take it into negative territory, it is not unknown for central banks to do that - though this will can result in asset inflation. The only reality is that there is no silver bullet out of the mess - assuming that the Parliament/PM rubber stamps the referendum.  

As part of the conspiracy theroy that Brexiters may be hoping for is that a couple of Euopean banks fail - Italian (maybe) or Deutche (highly unlikely).  If anyone of them fail and EU has to dig deep into their pockets that would give us a get out of jail and let Barage to get on his soap box and proclaim why he was right all along. All banks have a exposure to GBP and some have exposure to UK property market, so asset books have taken a beating. Equally Carney has reduced the capital requirements for UK bank, so in theory they are also riskier.  

I am not close enough to comment on the ECHR, but things like those may be part of negotiations - but I am clutching at straws.  The reality and I think we both agree on is that we dont have much to bargain. So a weak position may become slightly better if the other side gets on a bit of a slippery wicket e.g. an EU financial crisis.  

finally, someone mentioned that Spain needs our tourist.  True, but those tourists may need to pack some extra GBP as well as apply for a schengen visa before travelling bringing them on par with other non-EU citizens like middle east, Africa or China


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Doesn't surprise me! 

Click to expand...

It's good to be appreciated&#128536;


----------



## ger147 (Jul 8, 2016)

Maybe we need a cunning plan...


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			finally, someone mentioned that Spain needs our tourist.  True, but those tourists may need to pack some extra GBP as well as apply for a schengen visa before travelling bringing them on par with other non-EU citizens like middle east, Africa or China
		
Click to expand...

The question is, what situation suits Spain better- free movement or visas? What suits us best?
So if free movement suits both countries it's going to be a pretty poor negotiation for us both to lose. 
So why would anyone put that on the table at this point?
Oversimplification maybe, but let's not go too far the other way and put obstacles where there may not be any.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			...Equally Carney has reduced the capital requirements for UK bank, so in theory they are also riskier.  
...
		
Click to expand...

Carney seems to be putting his delegation skills into practice today!

He's currently in the Royal Box at Wimbledon watching one of UK's better sporting assets perform!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

Whether people need a visa on holiday is a minor point, visa waver systems can be a simple internet registration like the USA has used with certain countries, they normally last around five years before you must renew them. 

Since our best deal would be tariff free trade with the EU and that would be their best option with us then to start off negotiations with that would be sensible.   

The next big issue is the free movement of people, this is something that the referendum showed to be unacceptable to the UK so an initial stance of saying it's something we cannot accept is a good starting point.  To suggest it's not attainable so we shouldn't ask for is using Cameron's tactics in his recent negotiations which were a disaster.  I think the EU although making noises about their founding principles are also starting to understand that a number of countries have a populous that are unhappy with this and it may well create further unrest and dissatisfaction.   Many countries have trade agreements and are negotiating agreements with the EU for free trade but don't have to accept free movement, I don't see  why we should be in a different position just because we have left the club.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2016)

The contributions Norway pay into the EU is often used to say we would have all the costs but no representation.  Most of Norway's contributions to the EU are voluntary such as grants to a number of Eastern European countries to help raise their social and economic situations.  They contribute voluntarily towards certain research projects and pay into the EU fund used to regulate a few projects like the Shengin area.  They control their own Fishery and Agriculture.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The contributions Norway pay into the EU is often used to say we would have all the costs but no representation.  Most of Norway's contributions to the EU are voluntary such as grants to a number of Eastern European countries to help raise their social and economic situations.  They contribute voluntarily towards certain research projects and pay into the EU fund used to regulate a few projects like the Shengin area.  They control their own Fishery and Agriculture.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean-for-britain

As for the cost, here's the relevant extract from that article!

Is the Norway option cheaper?
Yes, but not by much. In 2012, Norway was paying â‚¬340m (Â£245m) a year into the EU budget â€“ the tenth-highest contributor. The thinktank Open Europe estimates that the UK would pay 94% of its current costs (Â£31.4bn annually) if it left the EU but adopted a Norway-type arrangement.

The above actually excludes the grants that Socket referred to above - which are indeed substantial, but voluntary!


----------



## delc (Jul 8, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Maybe we need a cunning plan...

View attachment 20137

Click to expand...

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :thup:


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 9, 2016)

So if your paying to access the EU and your not receiving the regeneration hand outs, are you in a better position?
If part of trading in the EU means free movement of people, is that acceptable too? 
All I can see is the leavers have destabilised their own economies and caused problems for Euro.
I don't mind if we cut benefits, no problem with that at all. I suspect we could maintain the income tax rates as is if we stop paying benefits and up the cost of social housing to meet any shortfalls.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2016)

This doesn't look or sound good 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html#

:mmm:


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 9, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I don't mind if we cut benefits, no problem with that at all. I suspect we could maintain the income tax rates as is if we stop paying benefits and up the cost of social housing to meet any shortfalls.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, are you actually advocating the abolishment of the Welfare State?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, are you actually advocating the abolishment of the Welfare State?
		
Click to expand...

To a degree yes, take it a way as an option for some people.


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 9, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			To a degree yes, take it a way as an option for some people.
		
Click to expand...

Which people? And who would decide who these people are?

I do appreciate that there is always going to be a small percentage of people who will take advantage of a helping hand, but how do you identify these people without spending more than your saving?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 9, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Which people? And who would decide who these people are?

I do appreciate that there is always going to be a small percentage of people who will take advantage of a helping hand, but how do you identify these people without spending more than your saving?
		
Click to expand...

Look at NI contributions and set the filter no contributions no benefits unless there is a proper reason. Remember the system is dependant on contributions and thus requires input. Limit the size or pay outs to families - always strange when you see a single mum with 5+ kids .. How does that become acceptable? 
All of the above may sound harsh but we really need to look at where we are bleeding money. So reduce MP pay and put them on the clock plus no expenses (we all have to travel to work) ... The NHS and education should be ring fenced


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2016)

I think there are a larger number of these types than many believe.  Since I have had a little more time on my hands I notice  people that are obviously unemployable as well as those that just don't want to work.  I'm not sure how the statistics are worked out but I imagine many are not classed as unemployed but disabled.  Before anyone goes off on me knocking the disabled I must say thats not the case, I have respect and very much time for genuinely disabled people but I think there are a very large number swinging the lead.   There is a junior school next to my house and I am horrified at many of the parents that I see outside the gates, it is obvious that many dont work and probably never have.   

As has been mentioned it's not easy to do something about it unless we returned to the methods of the 50s/60s where the ministry of works main objective was to asses unemployed and find them a job suitable to their ability, if they refused it they had their benefits stopped.   We have created this horrible situation whereby unemployment and benefits have become a lifestyle choice for so many.

Maybe a start would be to reduce family allowance to two children for new claimants, also there could be a reduction in tax credits, I know Osborne failed with this recently but they are an excuse for employers to pay low wages.   OK, people here know I am not a fan of high immigration, especially with low skilled people.   If we were tougher with the feckless and insisted they worked or were penalised then maybe we could knock a big hole in the welfare budget and lower demand for low skilled immigrants.   Work is the best way out of poverty and to engender self pride.

OK, this is a little off the subject in debate but as an independent country we need to raise standards and reduce waste.

Putts on flameproof suit, stands braced and waits for the hot blasts.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This doesn't look or sound good 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html#

:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

 When we withdrew from the ERM sterling devalued and created the start of a recovery.   Trade improved and the trade defect reduced.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			When we withdrew from the ERM sterling devalued and created the start of a recovery.   Trade improved and the trade defect reduced.
		
Click to expand...

That doesn't really answer the question of the pounds performance against the dollar Right now which is affecting the man on the street and looks like is could get worse.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Look at NI contributions and set the filter no contributions no benefits unless there is a proper reason. Remember the system is dependant on contributions and thus requires input. Limit the size or pay outs to families - always strange when you see a single mum with 5+ kids .. How does that become acceptable? 
All of the above may sound harsh but we really need to look at where we are bleeding money. So reduce MP pay and put them on the clock plus no expenses (we all have to travel to work) ... The NHS and education should be ring fenced
		
Click to expand...

On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jul 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I think there are a larger number of these types than many believe.  Since I have had a little more time on my hands I notice  people that are obviously unemployable as well as those that just don't want to work.  I'm not sure how the statistics are worked out but I imagine many are not classed as unemployed but disabled.  Before anyone goes off on me knocking the disabled I must say thats not the case, I have respect and very much time for genuinely disabled people but I think there are a very large number swinging the lead.   There is a junior school next to my house and I am horrified at many of the parents that I see outside the gates, it is obvious that many dont work and probably never have.   

As has been mentioned it's not easy to do something about it unless we returned to the methods of the 50s/60s where the ministry of works main objective was to asses unemployed and find them a job suitable to their ability, if they refused it they had their benefits stopped.   We have created this horrible situation whereby unemployment and benefits have become a lifestyle choice for so many.

Maybe a start would be to reduce family allowance to two children for new claimants, also there could be a reduction in tax credits, I know Osborne failed with this recently but they are an excuse for employers to pay low wages.   OK, people here know I am not a fan of high immigration, especially with low skilled people.   If we were tougher with the feckless and insisted they worked or were penalised then maybe we could knock a big hole in the welfare budget and lower demand for low skilled immigrants.   Work is the best way out of poverty and to engender self pride.

OK, this is a little off the subject in debate but as an independent country we need to raise standards and reduce waste.

Putts on flameproof suit, stands braced and waits for the hot blasts.
		
Click to expand...

Growing up in an estate. The benefit culture is one that infuriates me! 
Everytime I hear "I'd only be X better off" I want to slap them in the face. 
How about you set an example to your children. Or have some respect for yourself? Or contribute to the society you rely on!

I also have a daughter with cerebral palsy and I'll be damned if she doesn't work! She'll (unless system changes) always have financial help for extra costs of living. But even if it's a call centre. She'll be working of have my boot up her backside!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 9, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.
		
Click to expand...

Quite happy to chase all of the debtors totally disagree with tax evasion from large corporations who then offer to pay a percentage back... Answer should be no, you lose your licence or you pay the full amount.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That doesn't really answer the question of the pounds performance against the dollar Right now which is affecting the man on the street and looks like is could get worse.
		
Click to expand...

It was exactly the same then, it devalued.  As a man in the street exactly how have you been affected?   I think it has been made clear that we can expect some initial cost in Brexit and you will probably howl at anything and everything, but as you are completely negative and almost seem to want the country to nosedive anything I say to you will be kicked into the long grass.   I refer you again to your post just after the referendum where you suggested we all need to make the best of the situation, you seem to have conveniently brushed that aside.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.
		
Click to expand...

But the problem is not just benefit fraud, thats a small part of it.  We have a system where it is quite legitimate to take other peoples hard earned money to support your lazy feckless lifestyle, that costs a darn site more than 1.6 Billion and people do it legitimately.

I think most people agree that everyone should pay their tax but two wrongs don't make a right.  Some  people make a lot of money illegally selling drugs but it would be wrong to suggest that while thats happening it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But the problem is not just benefit fraud, thats a small part of it.  We have a system where it is quite legitimate to take other peoples hard earned money to support your lazy feckless lifestyle, that costs a darn site more than 1.6 Billion and people do it legitimately.

I think most people agree that everyone should pay their tax but two wrongs don't make a right.  Some  people make a lot of money illegally selling drugs but it would be wrong to suggest that while thats happening it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer.
		
Click to expand...

So you're suggesting we take money off people who receive it legitimately? because all these people are lazy and feckless? 

Were did I say it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer, it's easy to pick on the people on benefits and tar them all with the same brush, I never see anyone suggesting the Government should put more effort into finding the people who are not claiming the 1.2 Billion legitimately owed in benefits.

My point is, why aren't we putting the same resources and effort into chasing the tax dodgers, 700 staff against 3600 for a lot more money.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So you're suggesting we take money off people who receive it legitimately? because all these people are lazy and feckless? 

Were did I say it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer, it's easy to pick on the people on benefits and tar them all with the same brush, I never see anyone suggesting the Government should put more effort into finding the people who are not claiming the 1.2 Billion legitimately owed in benefits.

My point is, why aren't we putting the same resources and effort into chasing the tax dodgers, 700 staff against 3600 for a lot more money.
		
Click to expand...

I dont disagree over tax dodgers but as I have said two wrongs don't make a right.  What I am saying is we spend too much on welfare and have created a culture whereby too many people think they have an entitlement to tax payers money.  Rather than tar them ALL with the same brush I am saying if you can work then work or get nothing.  Do you disagree with that?    I would say that anyone suggesting that there are not a great number of people claiming benefits rather than work either dont get out and about much or are very naive.

I also think (as a pensioner)  that there are too many well off pensioners having benefits that the country cant afford and this needs to be addressed.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It was exactly the same then, it devalued.  As a man in the street exactly how have you been affected?   I think it has been made clear that we can expect some initial cost in Brexit and you will probably howl at anything and everything, but as you are completely negative and almost seem to want the country to nosedive anything I say to you will be kicked into the long grass.   I refer you again to your post just after the referendum where you suggested we all need to make the best of the situation, you seem to have conveniently brushed that aside.
		
Click to expand...

I don't care about what happened 20 plus years ago - the situation was different , we didn't leave a trade market that is a big part of our financial structure in this nation - what matters is right now , and it's clear the effect was very much under estimated and it's clear that even you don't have the answers or the solutions. 

Right now our currency is under performing by a considerable margin on the world scale - to me that doesn't sound good - your answer was going back in time 20 years , that isn't the answer for right now. 

We haven't even started the procedure to leave the EU and it's affecting people - this is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg - you can call me negative if you so wish but right now not one single person has come up with anything positive at the moment beyond saying "it will be alright" "we now have control" "don't under estimate how British we are" - it's all sound bite utter nonsense that doesn't practically achieve anything 

So until someone can actually come up with a plan to make everything work for the better I will continue to exercise my right to voice my fears and worries about what a pathetic state we are in right now - a mess driven by complete cowards like Johnson and Farage


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2016)

Sounds like a good time for foreign investors to be buying Sterling, while it is artificially low, it will recover and someone will make a mint.

Bet George Soros is doing just that

It'll be fine as long as we don't talk ourselves into a recession that doesn't need to happen


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't care about what happened 20 plus years ago - the situation was different , we didn't leave a trade market that is a big part of our financial structure in this nation - what matters is right now , and it's clear the effect was very much under estimated and it's clear that even you don't have the answers or the solutions. 

Right now our currency is under performing by a considerable margin on the world scale - to me that doesn't sound good - your answer was going back in time 20 years , that isn't the answer for right now. 

We haven't even started the procedure to leave the EU and it's affecting people - this is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg - you can call me negative if you so wish but right now not one single person has come up with anything positive at the moment beyond saying "it will be alright" "we now have control" "don't under estimate how British we are" - it's all sound bite utter nonsense that doesn't practically achieve anything 

So until someone can actually come up with a plan to make everything work for the better I will continue to exercise my right to voice my fears and worries about what a pathetic state we are in right now - a mess driven by complete cowards like Johnson and Farage
		
Click to expand...

Exactly right, behaving like a football fan with over expectation or naivety will only lead to disappointment.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont disagree over tax dodgers but as I have said two wrongs don't make a right.  What I am saying is we spend too much on welfare and have created a culture whereby too many people think they have an entitlement to tax payers money.  Rather than tar them ALL with the same brush I am saying if you can work then work or get nothing.  Do you disagree with that?    I would say that anyone suggesting that there are not a great number of people claiming benefits rather than work either dont get out and about much or are very naive.

I also think (as a pensioner)  that there are too many well off pensioners having benefits that the country cant afford and this needs to be addressed.
		
Click to expand...

You use 6 words to dismiss the tax dodgers and the rest is the issues with the Welfare State, you're brushing over the biggest issue, the media and the people with the money are deflecting on to the poorest and the lowest in society, it's not about 2 wrongs, there are hundreds of wrong, but surely we should be tackling the biggest problems first, what would have the biggest impact on the economy if we were to sort these 2 issues out, the 1 1/2 Billion into the Treasury or 36 Billion.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 10, 2016)

TBH this latest discussion isn't really Brexit based. If there were any politicians anywhere in the country doing anything other than sticking their collective heads up each other's arses I believe these thoughts are miles off target. 
Whilst it's infuriating I'm coming around to the idea that we have to let our poor old underpaid, overworked MPs do nothing for the next 6 months whilst the country goes to hell in a basket so they can come back, say "I told you so" every hour on the hour  and cream in the profits from their share dealing when they get round to putting is back on the path to recovery.
BTW the council's are underfunded and don't have any money to do anthing more about looking for scroungers and it's never been in the Tories interest to do anything about tax evasion because, whilst they might be clean themselves, their friends and family are making a mint out of it. Ask Cameron...


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			TBH this latest discussion isn't really Brexit based. If there were any politicians anywhere in the country doing anything other than sticking their collective heads up each other's arses I believe these thoughts are miles off target. 
Whilst it's infuriating I'm coming around to the idea that we have to let our poor old underpaid, overworked MPs do nothing for the next 6 months whilst the country goes to hell in a basket so they can come back, say "I told you so" every hour on the hour  and cream in the profits from their share dealing when they get round to putting is back on the path to recovery.
BTW the council's are underfunded and don't have any money to do anthing more about looking for scroungers and it's never been in the Tories interest to do anything about tax evasion because, whilst they might be clean themselves, their friends and family are making a mint out of it. Ask Cameron...
		
Click to expand...

To me it is Brexit based because it comes back to the facts that both sides lied and blamed some of the issues on the weakest in society, now we are out we should be moving forward rather than stagnating and we need to be honest were our priorities are as we go forward and establish ourselves in the world markets, and that shouldn't be targetting the weakest.
It's not the Councils job to look for scroungers that the DWP's job and they are government funded.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			You use 6 words to dismiss the tax dodgers and the rest is the issues with the Welfare State, you're brushing over the biggest issue, the media and the people with the money are deflecting on to the poorest and the lowest in society, it's not about 2 wrongs, there are hundreds of wrong, but surely we should be tackling the biggest problems first, what would have the biggest impact on the economy if we were to sort these 2 issues out, the 1 1/2 Billion into the Treasury or 36 Billion.
		
Click to expand...

I keep telling you its not 1.5 billion, it's way way more than that.  You only refer to people fiddling the system, I am also referring to those who are milking it.   I say again 'in a few words' Tax evasion is just as wrong.  Also dont mix up genuine cases with the many more fiddlers.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep telling you its not 1.5 billion, it's way way more than that.  You only refer to people fiddling the system, I am also referring to those who are milking it.   I say again 'in a few words' Tax evasion is just as wrong.  Also dont mix up genuine cases with the many more fiddlers.
		
Click to expand...

And you keep going on about those "milking" it, what proof of that do you have? Is it 1% or 99% or are just guessing, facts are only 1.6 Billion is fraudently claimed, the rest is guess work and is not illegal.
More business's, MP's are milking the system imo.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2016)

</script>>



SocketRocket said:



			There is a junior school next to my house and I am horrified at many of the parents that I see outside the gates, it is obvious that many dont work and probably never have.
		
Click to expand...


Did you ever consider, in this no longer 9-5 world, that these are honest hard working folk going about their daily grind or did you just merely jump to the lazy conclusion that they are BIFs???

They might have already done their bit just about to go off and do their bit or as was the case whenever I collected the kids just got out of the pit having worked nights...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			</script>>


Did you ever consider, in this no longer 9-5 world, that these are honest hard working folk going about their daily grind or did you just merely jump to the lazy conclusion that they are BIFs???

They might have already done their bit just about to go off and do their bit or as was the case whenever I collected the kids just got out of the pit having worked nights...
		
Click to expand...

These aren't that type of person.   I think you are being a bit naive.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			These aren't that type of person.   I think you are being a bit naive.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, just Wow, I'm out.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			These aren't that type of person.   I think you are being a bit naive.
		
Click to expand...


And, I believe you are making of it what suits your political stance...

Its the smiling tanned face of a multi millionaire talking of 250M [to plug a hole he's left in a pension fund] as if it were just small change rattling around in his purse that see's my blood pressure rise obviously finding fault in ordinary folks lives is what does it for you...

Think I'd sooner stay in my little world thank you...


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2016)

I think that 1 benefit of the current political hiatus is that it gives everything a time to settle, nobody is making kneejerk reactions.
We will still be in the EU next year, 

I have a funny feeling that in 10 years we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			And, I believe you are making of it what suits your political stance...

Its the smiling tanned face of a multi millionaire talking of 250M [to plug a hole he's left in a pension fund] as if it were just small change rattling around in his purse that see's my blood pressure rise obviously finding fault in ordinary folks lives is what does it for you...

Think I'd sooner stay in my little world thank you...
		
Click to expand...

*I dont like anyone that takes advantage of others and that applies right across the scale.*   Lets make that one clear rather than anyone suggesting I'm Ok with the rich shirking their responsibilities.

Anyone who thinks there are not a lot of people in this country shirking work and ripping off taxpayers is in my opinion naive or blinkered.   Our society also promotes fecklessness and has too many welfare benefits that suppress wages and encourage people to live out a life in the underclass.     I have a feeling these things will need facing up to soon.

'Ordinary folk'  as you call them  are what we called Working Class, people that went out and worked hard in whatever job they could so they could care for their families and have some pride in themselves.   To consider the people I mentioned as Ordinary Folk does the working class a dishonour.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*I dont like anyone that takes advantage of others and that applies right across the scale.*   Lets make that one clear rather than anyone suggesting I'm Ok with the rich shirking their responsibilities.

Anyone who thinks there are not a lot of people in this country shirking work and ripping off taxpayers is in my opinion naive or blinkered.   Our society also promotes fecklessness and has too many welfare benefits that suppress wages and encourage people to live out a life in the underclass.     I have a feeling these things will need facing up to soon.

'Ordinary folk'  as you call them  are what we called Working Class, people that went out and worked hard in whatever job they could so they could care for their families and have some pride in themselves.   To consider the people I mentioned as Ordinary Folk does the working class a dishonour.
		
Click to expand...

Ironic highlighted 1st sentence coming from someone so passionate about the leave campaign.  As that was basically one long exercise in a lot of people fears being stoked and then taken advantage of by a few politicians to advance their personal political ambitions.  IMHO of course.


----------



## drdel (Jul 11, 2016)

Putting aside the 'Tax' argument what I'm interested in is why those who want to re-run the referendum until a favourable 'In' result is gained think the EU's future holds.

Italy is fast reaching basket case status with the lowest productivity and unsustainable economy.
Greece is still a big problem which has not been solved and will require further ECB and IMF support which may or may not happen
Germany is fast becoming fed up with been the payer and Merkel faces election troubles and with the UK's net contribution vanishing it will have to pick up the majority of the funds the EU needs for itself and the subsidised states.
France is over leveraged and following Italy
Spain is on an economic tightrope with the highest levels of unemployment, almost twice the average of 10+% in the EU
The Eastern bloc and the southern states need subsidising.
Juncker seems to be acting like he's the brother of Seb Blatter and the Brussels budget is out of control
The IMF has declared having serious concerns over the economic state of the EU and ECB's ability to sustain its Quantitative Easy strategy.
The majority of EU banks are exposed as being insufficiently capitalised.
The EU wants budgetary stability for the  euro but has no monetary control over individual states.

Yet...
The UK banks have satisfied the stress tests.
UK businesses already export beyond the EU: EU nations will still buy as the Â£ exchange is good for them
British can and already do travel worldwide without much hassle; most countries issue a visa with little problem.


So as the 6th largest economy we can more than survive - do you really think that the UK could possibly be advised to join such a potential unstable economic scenario?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2016)

drdel said:



			Putting aside the 'Tax' argument what I'm interested in is why those who want to re-run the referendum until a favourable 'In' result is gained think the EU's future holds.

Italy is fast reaching basket case status with the lowest productivity and unsustainable economy.
Greece is still a big problem which has not been solved and will require further ECB and IMF support which may or may not happen
Germany is fast becoming fed up with been the payer and Merkel faces election troubles and with the UK's net contribution vanishing it will have to pick up the majority of the funds the EU needs for itself and the subsidised states.
France is over leveraged and following Italy
Spain is on an economic tightrope with the highest levels of unemployment, almost twice the average of 10+% in the EU
The Eastern bloc and the southern states need subsidising.
Juncker seems to be acting like he's the brother of Seb Blatter and the Brussels budget is out of control
The IMF has declared having serious concerns over the economic state of the EU and ECB's ability to sustain its Quantitative Easy strategy.
The majority of EU banks are exposed as being insufficiently capitalised.
The EU wants budgetary stability for the  euro but has no monetary control over individual states.

Yet...
The UK banks have satisfied the stress tests.
UK businesses already export beyond the EU: EU nations will still buy as the Â£ exchange is good for them
British can and already do travel worldwide without much hassle; most countries issue a visa with little problem.


So as the 6th largest economy we can more than survive - *do you really think that the UK could possibly be advised to join such a potential unstable economic scenario*?
		
Click to expand...

Simple answer is that just about every independent and credible economic organisation said that it is the UKs best interests to stay in.  And using 'stability' as an argument to come out is not probably the best reasoning, the way our political and economic outlook is at the moment.


----------



## drdel (Jul 11, 2016)

So HK you do not think the IMF economists are right to identify the high level of risk in the EU. 

As an economist I personally disagreed with the "independent and credible economic organisation(s).." those you mention were in the main concerned about the short term impact. But as Carney has stated the BoE has sufficient capability to sustain the emotional over reaction. Osborne has already started to refocus the UK's strategy. The emerging growth economies are not in the EU but in Asia, India, South America these countries should be the focus of our trade agreements. You will have noted that the EU's attempt to do a trade deal with Canada has hit the buffers because the 27 claim Juncker acted without authority, so potential trading partners now know they must deal with Brussels who then have to get 27 national governments to agree.  This lack of trading agility will continue to hamper the EU nations when globalisation is increasing competition.

If you want the UK to be hidden in a lumbering incoherent group then that is the future inside the EU where the pace of our growth will be dictated by the slowest player on the EU. I guess you'd be happy to continue to pump money down the EU drain for as long as it takes and risk exposure to the EU's Banks and the Brussel's budget demands rather than invest that money in the UK


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2016)

drdel said:



			So HK you do not think the IMF economists are right to identify the high level of risk in the EU. 

As an economist I personally disagreed with the "independent and credible economic organisation(s).." those you mention were in the main concerned about the short term impact. But as Carney has stated the BoE has sufficient capability to sustain the emotional over reaction. Osborne has already started to refocus the UK's strategy. The emerging growth economies are not in the EU but in Asia, India, South America these countries should be the focus of our trade agreements. You will have noted that the EU's attempt to do a trade deal with Canada has hit the buffers because the 27 claim Juncker acted without authority, so potential trading partners now know they must deal with Brussels who then have to get 27 national governments to agree.  This lack of trading agility will continue to hamper the EU nations when globalisation is increasing competition.

If you want the UK to be hidden in a lumbering incoherent group then that is the future inside the EU where the pace of our growth will be dictated by the slowest player on the EU. I guess you'd be happy to continue to pump money down the EU drain for as long as it takes and risk exposure to the EU's Banks and the Brussel's budget demands rather than invest that money in the UK
		
Click to expand...

Careful! You aren't supposed to come in here arguing rationally... and there's a danger you could be lableled an economic racist.

I disagree with your point about being lumbered with the slowest player. In effect, the argument would suggest that by the richer, not rich, countries supporting the poorest all countries will jog along at the same pace. This does suggest that if you are efficient, you will be handicapped in the race with economies outside the EU by having some of your investment capital taken off you and distributed elsewhere.


----------



## drdel (Jul 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Careful! You aren't supposed to come in here arguing rationally... and there's a danger you could be lableled an economic racist.

I disagree with your point about being lumbered with the slowest player. In effect, the argument would suggest that by the richer, not rich, countries supporting the poorest all countries will jog along at the same pace. This does suggest that if you are efficient, you will be handicapped in the race with economies outside the EU by having some of your investment capital taken off you and distributed elsewhere.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Hobbit, - rush of blood to the head - Monday enthusiasm; I'll not let anymore rational thoughts happen this week!:whoo:


----------



## vkurup (Jul 11, 2016)

So soap manufacturer Lush is moving some production from Poole to Germany because Poole voted 'Leave' and the owner thinks that the referendum result had signalled to staff from overseas that they were â€œnot wanted by people in Pooleâ€... 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...__we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/

I am guessing that most people on this forum do not frequent Lush, so this might not be newsworthy..


----------



## Rooter (Jul 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So soap manufacturer Lush is moving some production from Poole to Germany because Poole voted 'Leave' and the owner thinks that the referendum result had signalled to staff from overseas that they were â€œnot wanted by people in Pooleâ€... 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...__we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/

I am guessing that most people on this forum do not frequent Lush, so this might not be newsworthy..
		
Click to expand...

What absolute local journalism tosh at its finest. He had already opened a new facility in Germany way before the ref! This is one reason why i hate local papers..


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2016)

Also a nice excuse for him to explain why he is expanding in Germany, not the UK. It states that 1/3 of his workforce in Poole do not have British citizenship. Presumably this means they are minimum wage workers, it usually does. Great employer.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So soap manufacturer Lush is moving some production from Poole to Germany because Poole voted 'Leave' and the owner thinks that the referendum result had signalled to staff from overseas that they were â€œnot wanted by people in Pooleâ€... 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...__we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/

I am guessing that most people on this forum do not frequent Lush, so this might not be newsworthy..
		
Click to expand...




Rooter said:



			What absolute local journalism tosh at its finest. He had already opened a new facility in Germany way before the ref! This is one reason why i hate local papers..
		
Click to expand...

A number of manufacturers having been moving their business to eastern Europe since 2004. Its in the EU and the labour price is way way cheaper.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ironic highlighted 1st sentence coming from someone so passionate about the leave campaign.  As that was basically one long exercise in a lot of people fears being stoked and then taken advantage of by a few politicians to advance their personal political ambitions.  IMHO of course.
		
Click to expand...

Are you for real.  Do you honestly believe the remain camp didn't Stoke up people's fears to take advantage of their political careers.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So soap manufacturer Lush is moving some production from Poole to Germany because Poole voted 'Leave' and the owner thinks that the referendum result had signalled to staff from overseas that they were â€œnot wanted by people in Pooleâ€... 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...__we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/

I am guessing that most people on this forum do not frequent Lush, so this might not be newsworthy..
		
Click to expand...

And I raise you 

to high skilled workers http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36763212

and investment.

Seems like some of those small business's out there have a little faith.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 11, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And I raise you 

to high skilled workers http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36763212

and investment.

Seems like some of those small business's out there have a little faith.
		
Click to expand...

Great stuff...  we need more such stories.

My only concern is that we need both Boeing as well as the Lushs of the world to be here.. In case of Lush, you can almost be sure that they probably made the decision before the referendum, but the media does not like letting detail get in the way of a good story.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2016)

Despite not really wishing to have one - surely May must calla General Election - if not now then as soon as the government triggers Article 50 - simply on the grounds that the Tories were elected on the basis of their manifesto and it can now be chucked out of the window.  

Viewed through the prism of Brexit the UK is a very different place to that addressed by the party manifestos, and so none of the manifestos for the last GE are relevant today - and that includes the one upon which the Tories were elected.  Already we have seen Osborne dump the austerity targets for 2020.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Despite not really wishing to have one - surely May must calla General Election - if not now then as soon as the government triggers Article 50 - simply on the grounds that the Tories were elected on the basis of their manifesto and it can now be chucked out of the window.  

Viewed through the prism of Brexit the UK is a very different place to that addressed by the party manifestos, and so none of the manifestos for the last GE are relevant today - and that includes the one upon which the Tories were elected.  Already we have seen Osborne dump the austerity targets for 2020.
		
Click to expand...

Political landscapes change throughout every session of Parliament, whether it's going to war, which is never in a manifesto, or a global economic crash. That said, the referendum was in the Tory manifesto.

You're grasping at straws in the hope an election would see the Tories out. The only thing it would achieve, with Labour in the shambles it is, is a greater margin for the Tories. Waste of time and money.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Despite not really wishing to have one - surely May must calla General Election - if not now then as soon as the government triggers Article 50 - simply on the grounds that the Tories were elected on the basis of their manifesto and it can now be chucked out of the window.  

Viewed through the prism of Brexit the UK is a very different place to that addressed by the party manifestos, and so none of the manifestos for the last GE are relevant today - and that includes the one upon which the Tories were elected.  Already we have seen Osborne dump the austerity targets for 2020.
		
Click to expand...

1. It might be a reason to call one, but is in no way a compelling one! Realization that manifesto statements cannot be achieved has never been a cause to call a GE! 

2. Osborne's dumping of the zero deficit pledge was 'forced by the result of the referendum', so quite justifiably dumped! Also much better, politically, to announce it now than to wait until just before 2020 and attempt to blame it then! 

3. As Parliamentary terms are now fixed term, she, or Cameron until he resigns, cannot simply instigate a GE!!!   Shorter terms can only be generated by a vote of no-confidence! Given that both PM and PM-elect are Remainers, it's conceivable that a VoNC could be instigated by a Brexitter and one could possibly be forced - by the Tory Brexitters siding with all opposition! That would likely cause complete chaos!! Labour is in disarray and Tories wouldn't know whether to pledge to continue with the Brexit or have another referendum - which, again, could go either way!


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Despite not really wishing to have one - surely May must calla General Election
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like someone desperate to delay the wishes of the majority.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

Do we really need another public vote on anything? The Tories would win by a landslide anyway, with no viable opposition in place. May has enough on her plate as it is, so should just get on with it.


----------



## gregbwfc (Jul 12, 2016)

The Commons are going to debate that petition on a 2nd referendum 
Not sure it'll get anywhere but will this not just delay any decision/negotiations further ?


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

gregbwfc said:



			The Commons are going to debate that petition on a 2nd referendum 
Not sure it'll get anywhere but will this not just delay any decision/negotiations further ?
		
Click to expand...

 No. They just have to go through the motions after getting a certain amount of signatures. Just bitter remainers who did'nt like the outcome so it's going nowhere.


----------



## gregbwfc (Jul 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No. They just have to go through the motions after getting a certain amount of signatures. Just bitter remainers who did'nt like the outcome so it's going nowhere.
		
Click to expand...

Well I voted remain but am certainly not bitter.
Just wish they'd get on with negotiating and think they'd be better off spending time on debating how best to do this rather than on a petition.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

gregbwfc said:



			Well I voted remain but am certainly not bitter.
Just wish they'd get on with negotiating and think they'd be better off spending time on debating how best to do this rather than on a petition.
		
Click to expand...

I was'nt suggesting you were. Rather those who signed the petition looking for a second bite of the cherry. I agree, we have more pressing things to be getting on with but unfortunately they have to debate it. Not that they'll waste much time on the matter.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2016)

gregbwfc said:



			The Commons are going to debate that petition on a 2nd referendum 
Not sure it'll get anywhere but will this not just delay any decision/negotiations further ?
		
Click to expand...

According to the BBC News website the petition has been rejected so there won't be a debate about it.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36754376


----------



## gregbwfc (Jul 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was'nt suggesting you were. Rather those who signed the petition looking for a second bite of the cherry. I agree, we have more pressing things to be getting on with but unfortunately they have to debate it. Not that they'll waste much time on the matter.
		
Click to expand...

Righto :thup:
I'd only seen it on the Sky news ticker.
Got a bit more info now and you're right, it'll change nowt


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jul 12, 2016)

There won't be an election. The last thing we need given the mess we are already in. Needs either a 2/3 majority or a no confidence vote neither of which has a chance of happening. Nor should there need to be just because of the change of PM. Mind you, plenty who now agree with that were saying different when Gordon Brown was in.

As a left of centre remainer I think we could have done a lot worse than Theresa May (Oh God, did I really say that). The prospect of Boris, Gove or latterly Leadsom really worried me. Give her a chance "safe pair of hands" and all that and see where we are at the end of the term. There is (unfortunately) no alternative as Labour has simply imploded.....talk about history repeating itself. I worry where we will head after that though when the brave new world doesn't happen.....because the only certainty at the moment is that people won't get what they voted for.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			According to the BBC News website the petition has been rejected so there won't be a debate about it.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36754376

Click to expand...

Sky news are reporting it will be debated on 5th Sept?


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			I worry where we will head after that though when the brave new world doesn't happen.....because the only certainty at the moment is that people won't get what they voted for.
		
Click to expand...

I think i'll get what I voted for. Our independence from eu rule. One way or another we'll be outside of the eu. Onwards and upwards.:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			There won't be an election. The last thing we need given the mess we are already in. Needs either a 2/3 majority or a no confidence vote neither of which has a chance of happening. Nor should there need to be just because of the change of PM. Mind you, plenty who now agree with that were saying different when Gordon Brown was in.

As a left of centre remainer I think we could have done a lot worse than Theresa May (Oh God, did I really say that). The prospect of Boris, Gove or latterly Leadsom really worried me. Give her a chance "safe pair of hands" and all that and see where we are at the end of the term. There is (unfortunately) no alternative as Labour has simply imploded.....talk about history repeating itself. I worry where we will head after that though when the brave new world doesn't happen.....because the only certainty at the moment is that people won't get what they voted for.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with all of the above. My point about a GE fairly soon is simply because the whole context of UK government policy has changed with Brexit - every manifesto pledge will have to be revisited and adjusted or dumped accordingly.  I don't want a GE; I know that to call one is not straightforward; and I know that it would probably be disastrous for Labour and would probably also weaken the SNP.  I just don't know that the Tory government has any mandate for the policies it is going to have to put in place and follow now that we are leaving.  If the Tory manifesto defined what Brexit would actually mean then that would be different - but I don't believe it did - other than in the very broadest terms.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I think i'll get what I voted for. Our independence from eu rule. One way or another we'll be outside of the eu. Onwards and upwards.:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Except as soon as we agree trade or other deals with the EU then we will have to give away some control, sovereignty and independence to the EU as the UK is required to adhere to the rules and conditions for that trade as will be set out by the EU.  And the same giving away of control will apply to every deal that we strike.

But hey - don't let that stop you from believing


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree with all of the above. My point about a GE fairly soon is simply because the whole context of UK government policy has changed with Brexit - every manifesto pledge will have to be revisited and adjusted or dumped accordingly.  I don't want a GE; I know that to call one is not straightforward; and I know that it would probably be disastrous for Labour and would probably also weaken the SNP.  *I just don't know that the Tory government has any mandate for the policies it is going to have to put in place and follow now that we are leaving*.  If the Tory manifesto defined what Brexit would actually mean then that would be different - but I don't believe it did - other than in the very broadest terms.
		
Click to expand...

I would assume that the Conservatives could say that the mandate for them to change their policies has been given to them by the 52% that voted to leave in the referendum. Around 11 million (approx 36%) people voted Conservative during the 2015 election with a turn out of around 66% . Approx 17.4 million people voted for Brexit with a turn out of 72%. Surely that gives them the mandate to implement policies that will allow Brexit to happen and change their pre election manifesto.

And if we had a GE every time a party of which ever persuasion failed to follow through with a manifesto pledge or changed a policy that was in their manifesto then we'd be having two or three elections each year.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except as soon as we agree trade or other deals with the EU then we will have to give away some control, sovereignty and independence to the EU as the UK is required to adhere to the rules and conditions for that trade as will be set out by the EU.  And the same giving away of control will apply to every deal that we strike.

But hey - don't let that stop you from believing
		
Click to expand...

I won't, I have faith in our abilities. Your pessimistic outlook shows no vision. We'll only have to give away control, sovereignty and independence to the eu if we pander to what they want. I prefer to believe we will strike trade deals that are much more beneficial to us with the rest of the world, as well as the eu that can only be better than what we have. The eu is doomed so the individual countries will be soon begging to trade with the UK. 
You carry on looking on the gloomy side of everything, that's your prerogative but forgive me if I don't join you.:cheers:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except as soon as we agree trade or other deals with the EU then we will have to give away some control, sovereignty and independence to the EU as the UK is required to adhere to the rules and conditions for that trade as will be set out by the EU.  And the same giving away of control will apply to every deal that we strike.

But hey - don't let that stop you from believing
		
Click to expand...

How do you know that?  discussions haven't started yet!   Many countries trade with the EU without giving up control, sovereignty and independence.   Can you imagine China, India, the USA, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and so on giving up those things, why on earth do you think we should.   Just because Norway did is not a template for other countries, Norway is a very small country and could not exist without the EU trade, they have little to trade around the world other than Oil which is not a very reliable income source.   And how does giving up control apply to every deal we strike! Most countries aren't in the EU and don't apply their restrictive covenants.

But hey  -  You believe what you like.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree with all of the above. My point about a GE fairly soon is simply because the whole context of UK government policy has changed with Brexit - every manifesto pledge will have to be revisited and adjusted or dumped accordingly.  I don't want a GE; I know that to call one is not straightforward; and I know that it would probably be disastrous for Labour and would probably also weaken the SNP.  I just don't know that the Tory government has any mandate for the policies it is going to have to put in place and follow now that we are leaving.  If the Tory manifesto defined what Brexit would actually mean then that would be different - but I don't believe it did - other than in the very broadest terms.
		
Click to expand...

You do understand that we have an act for fixed term parliaments, don't you?   You only want a GE because you think that  it's a chance to get rid of the conservatives and Brexit.  Thats a bit desperate to say the least.  Do you think the populous has the stomach for an election now with all the new rounds of politicising that would create.   It wont happen and if it did it would be the final destruction of the Labour Party.


----------



## drdel (Jul 12, 2016)

What is wrong with some of you?

A GE will demonstrate uncertainty to the external world and the Conservatives would be returned despite any major policy shocks in a new manifesto - so there's now't to gain.

All this emphasis on needing trade deals is a red herring.  Businesses do business; its going on all the time. Politicians can help (a bit) and if the UK reduces corporation tax (which doesn't actually generate a large proportion of tax income) more trade will happen. 

UK Banks are stable - most EU banks aren't and the politics in the EU members are a bit shaky.

The WTO rules apply and we are already trading with the relevant nations; the odd trade deal might improve/sweeten at the margins.

The waffle about being at the 'back of the queue' with the US is pure bunkum there is no queue; Boeing is a good example.

The UK is still the 6th largest economy and in a position of some power/influence and an attractive place to invest so why do we try and put ourselves down?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 12, 2016)

In regards Boeing - they were always going to bring more business into the UK due to deals with the MOD over the past 20 years in regards both Aircraft and more recently logistics support across the whole of our Armed Forces ( they won the contract ) - Boeing made sure they got the best of the deal because of the roots already in place - it would have cost the MoD a damn sight more to go anywhere else but Boeing. Hopefully a lot of the guys who lost out when the Nimrod project went south will pick up the work now


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You do understand that we have an act for fixed term parliaments, don't you?   You only want a GE because you think that  it's a chance to get rid of the conservatives and Brexit.  Thats a bit desperate to say the least.  Do you think the populous has the stomach for an election now with all the new rounds of politicising that would create.   It wont happen and if it did it would be the final destruction of the Labour Party.
		
Click to expand...

I DON'T want a GE - I just can't see what mandate the Tories actually have for the manifesto they were elected on.  I think the Tories would scoot an election with Labour wiped and the SNP depleted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2016)

The FTSE 100 and 250 seem to have made very good progress this month.   The GBP/USD rate was 1.32 today which again is a good upward move.   OK, we are still in a settling down period but nice to see this happening.  Well it is for me anyway.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I DON'T want a GE - I just can't see what mandate the Tories actually have for the manifesto they were elected on.  I think the Tories would scoot an election with Labour wiped and the SNP depleted.
		
Click to expand...

Whats changed though, they said they would hold a referendum and they did, logic would suggest that a referendum would have an outcome that they would need to manage.    The PM change is not related to a manifesto and just a party issue.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 12, 2016)

drdel said:



			All this emphasis on needing trade deals is a red herring.  Businesses do business; its going on all the time. Politicians can help (a bit) and if the UK reduces corporation tax (which doesn't actually generate a large proportion of tax income) more trade will happen.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. France have already started complaining about the UK setting a lower corporation tax, as it will give us, in their eyes, an unfair advantage in attracting investment. They are already worrying the the UK will thrive to the rest of the eu's detriment.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Spot on. France have already started complaining about the UK setting a lower corporation tax, as it will give us, in their eyes, an unfair advantage in attracting investment. They are already worrying the the UK will thrive to the rest of the eu's detriment.
		
Click to expand...


Even though setting the corporate rate the UK is only matching Ireland, another EU member state.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2016)

That removes Ireland's big attraction though. I seem to remember the Irish had to increase corporation tax slightly as part of their bailout as it was annoying the hell out of other EU countries. Ireland will still have an advantage of being in the EU but it is weaker in geographical terms.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 12, 2016)

Early days yet, interesting comments coming from suppliers at work. They think the uk based factories will compete on a more level playing field to those in Eastern Europe. Not sure how though, unless there is cost cutting, a weak pound may help. But if we don't start building up our own internal supply base we won't be building in the UK. 
Perhaps the suggestion that leave will be delayed for 6 years is also helping ....


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Perhaps the suggestion that leave will be delayed for 6 years is also helping ....
		
Click to expand...

Where's that come from?


----------



## IanM (Jul 13, 2016)

Correct.  GE is another variable and not needed.  (previous Governments haven't called one when Party Leader changed.

Our Banks are now in decent shape.  Several EU zone banks are on the point of failure.

Tories have outflanked Labour here with a quick resolution of the leadership situation and the removal of more "marmite" candidates like Boris/Gove!  (Mind you Mrs May isn't everyone's cup of tea either)   Meanwhile major in fighting between Labour MPs and Party Membership over leader is a right mess.  Labour would get hammered in a GE now.

BUT ---when will Article 50 be kicked off?  Or will it.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 13, 2016)

IanM said:



			...
Our Banks are now in decent shape.  Several EU zone banks are on the point of failure.
...
		
Click to expand...

Not sure whether that's entirely correct!

HSBC seems to have been possibly 'assisted' with avoiding potential massive US fines - though it is supposedly well funded anyway - on the groundsof being 'too big to fail'!

Lloyds only just passed the stress tests conduced a year or 2 ago (perhaps ironically the ECB was involved in them too!). Apart from a couple (Santander and Deutsche) most of those that failed the stress tests - which doesn't mean they are on the point of failure btw! - are in the 'usual suspect' areas of Greece, Italy and Portugal.

Btw. Santander may well still have been rather affected by the deal that pushed RBS into needing government buyout, as it was involved - and had considerable exposure to Bernie Madoff's scheme though, $2Bn is pretty much small change in international banking!


----------



## jdpjamesp (Jul 13, 2016)

So May to be PM, likely that Hammond will be Chancellor. Can't wait for the announcement of Foreign Secretary... :rofl:

Pinched from HIGNFY.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2016)

Grayling as Minister for Brexit? - would serve him right.  Some years ago an Ex CEO of mine told a group of us at a lunch Q&A session that Grayling at the DWP was completely useless and a disaster - and that IDS seemed to be a breath of fresh air and quite capable.  And that CEO had had a lot of direct personal dealings with Grayling, as the DWP are one of our main UK customers.


----------



## IanM (Jul 13, 2016)

Guess I was talking about the industry in general terms compared rather your point about the "usual suspects!"


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 13, 2016)

Boris foreign secretary... Oh dear ....


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Boris foreign secretary... Oh dear ....
		
Click to expand...

Double oh dear, with an oh dear on the side.


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Double oh dear, with an oh dear on the side.
		
Click to expand...

SOS


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2016)

How long before Boris has to resign following a typical gaffe? Foreign Secretary really is not the job for him.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How long before Boris has to resign following a typical gaffe? Foreign Secretary really is not the job for him.
		
Click to expand...

Keeps him out of the way and having to explain Brexit to the foreigners - laying firm foundations for the best trade deals.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 13, 2016)

Boris will do  fine. 3 brexit campaigners in place for negotiations and Osbourne's been kicked into touch, so no more of his pessimism. Things are looking up:clap:


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2016)

Love him or loath him it shows her political savey.

She gives a top job to someone who many in the Conservative party feel had been stabbed in the back. Tea and blue rinse brigade happy, he makes one mistake he,s toast.

He did a good job in London as Mayor so he may suprise a few.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 13, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Boris foreign secretary... Oh dear ....
		
Click to expand...

I really think the Tory toffs are having a bet amongst themselves to see how close they can get to a 'Carry On' film script.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I really think the Tory toffs are having a bet amongst themselves to see how close they can get to a 'Carry On' film script.
		
Click to expand...

If they need some ideas they can just look north of the boarder.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If they need some ideas they can just look north of the boarder.
		
Click to expand...

expand please - not clear to me who you are talking about


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 13, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Boris will do  fine. 3 brexit campaigners in place for negotiations and Osbourne's been kicked into touch, so no more of his pessimism. Things are looking up:clap:
		
Click to expand...

Yup and failure will destroy them and their names ... Nice manoeuvre.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 13, 2016)

I think he'll be fine, just based on the fact that I trust that the new PM knows more about politics and the right honourable minister for Uxbridge than us lot on here.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 13, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Yup and failure will destroy them and their names ... Nice manoeuvre.
		
Click to expand...

You really think that May would set the country up for failure just to prove a point?


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 13, 2016)

Region3 said:



			You really think that May would set the country up for failure just to prove a point?
		
Click to expand...

I hope not but these guys are going to have to deliver ... They say we will be alright now it's their job to make it so. Time to find out if they are all mouth no trousers ...


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 13, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I think he'll be fine, just based on the fact that I trust that the new PM knows more about politics and the right honourable minister for Uxbridge than us lot on here.
		
Click to expand...

Or it's keep your friends close and your enemies closer... His shins are going to get a kicking


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 13, 2016)

She sounds a bit too much like Maggie for my liking, hopefully i'm wrong.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 13, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I hope not but these guys are going to have to deliver ... They say we will be alright now it's their job to make it so. Time to find out if they are all mouth no trousers ...
		
Click to expand...

It's only taken 4,852 posts on this thread to find something I agree with you on  :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			expand please - not clear to me who you are talking about
		
Click to expand...

Wee Eck and Jimmy Cranky :whoo:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

Some very good choices in my opinion.  I like Dave Davis and think he is exactly the right person to lead the Brexit team, he believes in the cause and is strong enough to stand our corner.  I also like Liam Fox, he is an intelligent person and more than capable of seeking out potential markets around the World.    Boris is not the Buffon many of those with limited vision believe he is, he is well educated, and a shrewd salesman of a cause, you just have to look how he trashed the likes of Cameron and Osborne in the Referendum, he did a damn good job as Mayor of London which most of the whinging Remainers couldn't hold a candle to.   I'm pleased Osborne has fallen on his sword, he like Cameron destroyed his credibility during the referendum campaign and holds no confidence now.

More to come tomorrow but the ones of us that want our country to move on to better things will be full of hope and optimism, the others will still be sniping and adopting the typical sour grape attitudes that typify their 'Gollum' type despair at the loss of their 'Precious' EU


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 14, 2016)

In these confusing times I tend to turn to trusted political voices and commentators. Such as Cher. 

Take a look at @cher's Tweet: https://twitter.com/cher/status/753309026427867136?s=09


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 14, 2016)

And at least the appointment of Boris hasn't reduced us to a laughing stock on the world stage. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Some very good choices in my opinion.  I like Dave Davis and think he is exactly the right person to lead the Brexit team, he believes in the cause and is strong enough to stand our corner.  I also like Liam Fox, he is an intelligent person and more than capable of seeking out potential markets around the World.    Boris is not the Buffon many of those with limited vision believe he is, he is well educated, and a shrewd salesman of a cause, you just have to look how he trashed the likes of Cameron and Osborne in the Referendum, he did a damn good job as Mayor of London which most of the whinging Remainers couldn't hold a candle to.   I'm pleased Osborne has fallen on his sword, he like Cameron destroyed his credibility during the referendum campaign and holds no confidence now.

More to come tomorrow but the ones of us that want our country to move on to better things will be full of hope and optimism, the others will still be sniping and adopting the typical sour grape attitudes that typify their 'Gollum' type despair at the loss of their 'Precious' EU
		
Click to expand...

Strange how people see things differently. To my untrained eye, what May appears to have done is set up a trio of fall guys should Brexit either not happen, or God forbid, actually make things worse. She's provided a degree of separation between herself and the most (possibly) toxic situation happening in Britain right now. 
   Fox is a disaster waiting to happen. Boris is an international laughing stock, and Davis seems like a principled Politician who will fall on his own sword if he fails. She's played a blinder there.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 14, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And at least the appointment of Boris hasn't reduced us to a laughing stock on the world stage. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977

Click to expand...

Probably the cabinet job for which he is most unsuited. Once again internal Tory party machinations placed above the national interest.


----------



## drdel (Jul 14, 2016)

Anyone who has worked with BJ has generally respected him. He's no fool professionally and a bright cookie. His mannerisms are a useful facet which makes people under estimate him: to his advantage.

Pretty good Cabinet IMO.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Strange how people see things differently. To my untrained eye, what May appears to have done is set up a trio of fall guys should Brexit either not happen, or God forbid, actually make things worse. She's provided a degree of separation between herself and the most (possibly) toxic situation happening in Britain right now. 
   Fox is a disaster waiting to happen. Boris is an international laughing stock, and Davis seems like a principled Politician who will fall on his own sword if he fails. She's played a blinder there.
		
Click to expand...

You are right about people seeing things differently.    I just cant believe May will work the way you are suggesting and is setting up Brexit to fail, I know many want that to happen and there seems to be quite a number on this site that support that view.   I am beginning to think the mould that our forefathers were cast from has been well and truly smashed.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are right about people seeing things differently.    I just cant believe May will work the way you are suggesting and is setting up Brexit to fail, I know many want that to happen and there seems to be quite a number on this site that support that view.   I am beginning to think the mould that our forefathers were cast from has been well and truly smashed.
		
Click to expand...

She isn't she is putting the leavers feet to the fire to deliver ... It's in everyone's best interest.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			She isn't she is putting the leavers feet to the fire to deliver ... It's in everyone's best interest.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly believe She is placing her new role at risk by putting people into these top positions who are not capable of performing!   Their performance will be a direct reflection of her ability as PM, It's not a silly playground game.


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are right about people seeing things differently.    I just cant believe May will work the way you are suggesting and is setting up Brexit to fail, I know many want that to happen and there seems to be quite a number on this site that support that view.   I am beginning to think the mould that our forefathers were cast from has been well and truly smashed.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the point I was making. If you read it again, you'll see that I'm suggesting that she's putting people in place who will be easy to get rid of should she fail. A little bit of sacrificial protection if you will. 

Oh, and I'd be more inclined to respect your position if you ceased with the continual comments regarding the "remainers" being somehow treasonous to the efforts of our forefathers and and the concept of "Great Britain". My "Forefathers" fought just as valiantly for this Country. My family contains Olympic and Commonwealth athletes. My Great Uncle was a record holder for Germany at the World Cup. I have invested just as much, if not more into this Country as anyone on here. We just have different ideas about what makes the Union great. Different, not worse!!!!!


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are right about people seeing things differently.    I just cant believe May will work the way you are suggesting and is setting up Brexit to fail, I know many want that to happen and there seems to be quite a number on this site that support that view.   I am beginning to think the mould that our forefathers were cast from has been well and truly smashed.
		
Click to expand...

I hope it has been well and truly smashed! Whilst some of them did great things, some of them are responsible for wars, imperialism, slavery, need I go on. We need to forge our own path, on the back of what we've learned from our forefathers, and that includes avoiding their screw ups.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I hope it has been well and truly smashed! Whilst some of them did great things, some of them are responsible for wars, imperialism, slavery, need I go on. We need to forge our own path, on the back of what we've learned from our forefathers, and that includes avoiding their screw ups.
		
Click to expand...

Well said. Unfortunately too many seem to yearn for that bygone era.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 14, 2016)

From the FT today -- 
*Theresa May's bold cabinet gambit on band of Brexiters*

Theresa May's appointment of Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox to take Britain out of the EU is a bold move to let pro-Brexit ministers prove that there is a better future outside - and to make it clear where the blame lies if it goes wrong. 

Mr Johnson's appointment is the most eye-catching, putting foreign policy in the hands of a man rarely described as diplomatic: he recently called Barack Obama, Britain's most powerful ally, "part Kenyan" with "an ancestral dislike" of the UK. His appointment will cause bewilderment in chancelleries around the world, but there is some logic to the choice, beyond Mrs May's obvious attempt to reunite her party by giving prominent jobs to pro-Brexit campaigners. Mr Johnson, like the veteran rightwingers Mr Davis and Mr Fox, are "liberal Leavers": although they wanted Britain to leave the EU on grounds of sovereignty, they are not inclined to pull up the drawbridge on the world. Mr Johnson has declared himself to be pro-immigration and as mayor he celebrated the diversity of the capital; in his time in City Hall he was an energetic and effective cheerleader for Britain on numerous trips to China, India and elsewhere. The former London mayor, in any event, is not the most important appointment in the May Brexit team. The Foreign Office has been in secular decline in Whitehall for years, as Number 10 and the Cabinet Office assume more power over foreign policy. The Foreign Office's influence will now be further diluted by the creation of the new Brexit department - led by Mr Davis, a Europe minister in the 1990s - to oversee negotiations to leave the EU. Mr Johnson's remit will, therefore, be to project Britain as an internationalist and open country to a sceptical world; his canvas will be the world beyond Europe, with a particular focus on China, India and the US, where he was born.

Mr Davis, a 67-year-old civil liberties champion, who contested the Tory leadership against David Cameron in 2005, is perhaps the more significant appointment. He will now have to brush down his EU negotiating skills - last deployed as Europe minister in the mid-1990s in the period between the Maastricht and Amsterdam treaties - as the secretary of state for Exiting the European Union. Mr Davis gave his thoughts on this task earlier this week, arguing that Britain should take its time before triggering the Article 50 divorce clause, suggesting that should not happen until the end of this year or in early 2017. "Constitutional propriety requires us to consult with the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish governments first," he wrote on the Conservative Home website. "Common sense implies that we should consult with stakeholders like the City, CBI, TUC, small business bodies, the NFU, universities and research foundations and the like." Mr Davis says that none of those bodies should have "any sort of veto" but the consultation will undoubtedly produce a clear result: all of those bodies will want the maximum possible access to the single market. The new minister declared: "The ideal outcome, (and in my view the most likely, after a lot of wrangling) is continued tariff-free access. Once the European nations realise that we are not going to budge on control of our borders, they will want to talk, in their own interest. "There may be some complexities about rules of origin and narrowly-based regulatory compliance for exports into the EU, but that is all manageable."  If things turn out to be more complicated, then Mrs May will be relieved that a pro-Brexit minister is in place to explain the trade offs between single market access - and by implication jobs and growth - and immigration control. 

The final member of the Brexit trio is Liam Fox, another 2005 Tory leadership contender and former defence secretary, who is charged with making good on the Leavers' claim that the UK will be able to strike a series of new trade deals once it leaves the EU.  Since Britain has not negotiated any trade deals on its own behalf since it joined the EU in 1973, Mr Fox's first task is to build up a trade capability - including hiring private sector staff - in his new department of international trade. Mr Fox's department will wrap in the work of UK Trade and Investment - which is being abolished - bring together the functions currently performed by UKTI, UK Export Finance and the business department's trade policy and export control roles. Mr Obama warned before the referendum that Britain would be "at the back of the queue" in seeking a deal with Britain, while the Leavers insisted that breaking free of the EU bureaucracy would make such agreements quicker to secure. "Leaving the EU gives us back control of our trade policy, and gives us the opportunity to maximise returns from free trade," Mr Davis wrote last week. Mrs May wants Mr Fox, an Atlanticist with strong links to the US Republican party to prove it; she also wants the Brexiters to "own" any problems that arise. Mrs May's approach is therefore to put Brexit in the hands of the liberal Leavers, hoping that they 
can deliver on her promise to "make Brexit a success", but making it clear where responsibility lies. 

During the course of Thursday, Mrs May's continuing reshuffle will focus on delivering on her domestic policies of social reform: a softer, more female face, to her cabinet is likely to emerge


----
waiting for the first post that starts accusing FT of being negative, treason, anti-progress, conspiracy, EU-funded, of-unknown-ancestry, out-of-touch etc.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2016)

I can't help but feel that there are many on here, and in the general population, who voted Remain that are actively hoping that Brexit will be a complete failure. In my opinion they would rather the country fail than succeed simply so that they can say "I told you so" and feel smug about themselves.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't help but feel that there are many on here, and in the general population, who voted Remain that are actively hoping that Brexit will be a complete failure. In my opinion they would rather the country fail than succeed simply so that they can say "I told you so" and feel smug about themselves.
		
Click to expand...

I think everyone wants to move on and ensure we get the best deal and progress.  However, that cant stop people from having a view.. I guess the best view on this topic comes from Ian Hislop.  In case you missed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5nI_4uXzD4


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't help but feel that there are many on here, and in the general population, who voted Remain that are actively hoping that Brexit will be a complete failure. In my opinion they would rather the country fail than succeed simply so that they can say "I told you so" and feel smug about themselves.
		
Click to expand...

And I'm sure that if the vote had gone the opposite way it would be exactly the same. Or do you disagree?

FWIW, I want us to succeed, but id rather we succeeded as part of the EU. Simple.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			And I'm sure that if the vote had gone the opposite way it would be exactly the same. Or do you disagree?

FWIW, I want us to succeed, but id rather we succeeded as part of the EU. Simple.
		
Click to expand...

I agree to some extent but think that if the result had gone the other way then those that voted Leave would have been hoping for the EU to fail and collapse rather than the UK.

Why would you rather we succeeded as part of the EU? Does it actually matter whether we are in or out as long as the UK is successful?


----------



## bluewolf (Jul 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I agree to some extent but think that if the result had gone the other way then those that voted Leave would have been hoping for the EU to fail and collapse rather than the UK.

Why would you rather we succeeded as part of the EU? Does it actually matter whether we are in or out as long as the UK is successful?
		
Click to expand...

To me it does, yes. It's about European unity. Better Together isn't just for Scotland.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I think everyone wants to move on and ensure we get the best deal and progress.  However, that cant stop people from having a view.. I guess the best view on this topic comes from Ian Hislop.  In case you missed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5nI_4uXzD4

Click to expand...

But many dont want to move on, they want to make stupid claims that suggest people with different opinions are uneducated, racist, xenophobic,old dodgers who should not be allowed to vote and so on, that nothing will work out for the better and life as we know it is at a tragic end.  Most of the moaning from Remainers is just sour grapes, doom and  gloom. 

Hislop is and always was an opportunist cynic and thats what he has been handsomely rewarded for, why should he be any different now.   His analogy with the Government Opposition is a poor one IMO,  The opposition's job isn't to just say everything the Government do is wrong but to offer alternative strategies if they believe the Government is wrong and support them if they think they are right.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But many dont want to move on, they want to make stupid claims that suggest people with different opinions are uneducated, racist, xenophobic,old dodgers who should not be allowed to vote and so on, that nothing will work out for the better and life as we know it is at a tragic end.  Most of the moaning from Remainers is just sour grapes, doom and  gloom.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly agree that there are examples of this, but most - almost all I have encountered - want to get on in the 'new world' and make the best of it!



SocketRocket said:



			Hislop is and always was an opportunist cynic and thats what he has been handsomely rewarded for, why should he be any different now.   His analogy with the Government Opposition is a poor one IMO,  The opposition's job isn't to just say everything the Government do is wrong but to offer alternative strategies if they believe the Government is wrong and support them if they think they are right.
		
Click to expand...

Hislop, and others of the same ilk, are an essential part of any democracy - pointing out the ridiculous (and occasionally scandalous) hipocrisy of those that control much of the country and its policies! His analogy was spot on imo! The alternative strategy (and certainly Labour's general view) was to stay in the EU! 

May's Cabinet could well be a stroke of genius! I'm not sure how well Boris will perform at the FO. It has been declining in importance in recent times, but is likely to be more active when/if Article 50 is issued! Let's hope he doesn't make the same sort of Bozo faux-pas he has made in the past! Davis is solid and reliable and, given his EU views, is perfect for that job. He's just the sort of steady hand that is needed - Gove would be a disaster imo - to achieve Brexit in an ordered fashion! Likewise Liam Fox, though more overt in his ambition which should be a 'positive' for his 'sales' role! Osborne had to go imo, though I'm sure he'll be back in another role in the 2nd (or maybe even 1st) reshuffle! Hammond (my MP) is the ultimate, as far as it can be in politics!, safe pair of hands. Given that Osborne had to go, he's a pretty logical, and capable, replacement imo. The postings below the 'big three' and Brexit related ones seem as good as any would be - several kept their roles, including Health, where continuity is important currently imo. Education seems to have gone to a rising star. I hope that any changes there are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, as there's a huge cost - both financially and to students - otherwise!

I'm not a total May fan! Her determination to push through some daft legislation and strategies - that ended badly for her - suggests too much of the Thatcher style unreasoned single-mindedness! However, a more pragmatic approach than Cameron's could well be just what is needed!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe She is placing her new role at risk by putting people into these top positions who are not capable of performing!   Their performance will be a direct reflection of her ability as PM, It's not a silly playground game.
		
Click to expand...

You may want to rephrase the playground statement ..... After all that is where it all starts


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			You may want to rephrase the playground statement ..... After all that is where it all starts
		
Click to expand...

Sorry!  Where what all starts


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 14, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry!  Where what all starts
		
Click to expand...

Shankar, you are slow ....


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Shankar, you are slow .... 

Click to expand...

Maybe, but answer the question all the same.   

Oh! spell it correctly it's Shanker by the way Mr Harpic (Clean round the bend)
Or are you referring to Shankar Shanmugam the Indian Film Director    Probably not as that would be assuming a modicum of  class. :rofl:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 15, 2016)

Nicola and May meeting at Bute House today.

I wonder if the PM has read this piece...http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-friends-in-europa/

Important info according to Andrew Marr, especially for newspaper readers.


----------



## delc (Jul 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But many dont want to move on, they want to make stupid claims that suggest people with different opinions are uneducated, racist, xenophobic,old dodgers who should not be allowed to vote and so on, that nothing will work out for the better and life as we know it is at a tragic end.  Most of the moaning from Remainers is just sour grapes, doom and  gloom. 

Hislop is and always was an opportunist cynic and thats what he has been handsomely rewarded for, why should he be any different now.   His analogy with the Government Opposition is a poor one IMO,  The opposition's job isn't to just say everything the Government do is wrong but to offer alternative strategies if they believe the Government is wrong and support them if they think they are right.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, some of the folk who voted to leave fitted that description exactly!  I know some of them personally!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 15, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...wants-from-brexit-negotiations-20160715110899


----------



## delc (Jul 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola and May meeting at Bute House today.

I wonder if the PM has read this piece...http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-friends-in-europa/

Important info according to Andrew Marr, especially for newspaper readers.
		
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea, because we would get rid of the problems of Scotland and Northern Ireland in one go. Then the Little Englanders would be able to revel in their self inflicted poverty and isolation (sorry Sovereignty) for ever more!


----------



## Region3 (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			Not a bad idea, because we would get rid of the problems of Scotland and Northern Ireland in one go. Then the Little Englanders would be able to revel in their self inflicted poverty and isolation (sorry Sovereignty) for ever more!  

Click to expand...

Yet another thinly veiled insinuation that anyone who voted leave is stupid. It's really starting to pee me off and I didn't even vote leave!


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			Not a bad idea, because we would get rid of the problems of Scotland and Northern Ireland in one go. Then the Little Englanders would be able to revel in their self inflicted poverty and isolation (sorry Sovereignty) for ever more!  

Click to expand...




Region3 said:



			Yet another thinly veiled insinuation that anyone who voted leave is stupid. It's really starting to pee me off and I didn't even vote leave!
		
Click to expand...

Ditto from another Remainer. To be honest, it would appear that there are a fair share of idiots on both sides.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola and May meeting at Bute House today.

I wonder if the PM has read this piece...http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-friends-in-europa/

Important info according to Andrew Marr, especially for newspaper readers.
		
Click to expand...

Keep grasping Doom.


----------



## delc (Jul 15, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Yet another thinly veiled insinuation that anyone who voted leave is stupid. It's really starting to pee me off and I didn't even vote leave!
		
Click to expand...

I think the people who voted to leave believed too much of the rubbish printed about the EU in the right wing gutter press, and didn't think through the consequences of leaving.  In particular:
1) Will we still be able to trade freely with EU countries?
2) Will we still be able to travel freely in Europe?
3) What happens to UK citizens who live and work in EU countries and vice versa.
4) Would we still be able to marry citizens of EU countries if we so wished?
5) We no longer have the military and economic clout that we once had, so could we defend ourselves as a small independent nation if attacked?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			I think the people who voted to leave believed too much of the rubbish printed about the EU in the right wing gutter press, and didn't think through the consequences of leaving.  In particular:
1) Will we still be able to trade freely with EU countries?
2) Will we still be able to travel freely in Europe?
3) What happens to UK citizens who live and work in EU countries and vice versa.
4) Would we still be able to marry citizens of EU countries if we so wished?
5) We no longer have the military and economic clout that we once had, so could we defend ourselves as a small independent nation if attacked?
		
Click to expand...

1 to 4 absolutely.

5 - Attacked by who?  We will renew our nuclear deterrent, we are getting the two largest aircraft carriers in the world soon to be equipped with very high spec VTOL stealth fighters, we still are a formidable fighting force in Europe and are a major partner in Nato.   How do you think being in the EU makes any difference to our National security?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			I think the people who voted to leave believed too much of the rubbish printed about the EU in the right wing gutter press, and didn't think through the consequences of leaving.  In particular:
1) Will we still be able to trade freely with EU countries?
2) Will we still be able to travel freely in Europe?
3) What happens to UK citizens who live and work in EU countries and vice versa.
4) Would we still be able to marry citizens of EU countries if we so wished?
5) We no longer have the military and economic clout that we once had, so could we defend ourselves as a small independent nation if attacked?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you've never heard of NATO? Its a fairly recent military alliance. Maybe we should join...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			I think the people who voted to leave believed too much of the rubbish printed about the EU in the right wing gutter press, and didn't think through the consequences of leaving.  In particular:
1) Will we still be able to trade freely with EU countries? *Yes, almost certainly, but at what cost is so far unknown until negotiations happen.*
2) Will we still be able to travel freely in Europe? *Again, yes almost certainly. Why wouldn't we? Do you think that places such as France, Italy, Spain and Greece would want to impose restrictions on UK citizens wanting to go on holiday there?*
3) What happens to UK citizens who live and work in EU countries and vice versa. *Personally I think an agreement will be reached on that as one of the starting points for negotiation.*
4) Would we still be able to marry citizens of EU countries if we so wished? *Yes, why wouldn't we? We can marry Australians, Chinese, Japanese etc if we wish so why would leaving the EU mean we can't marry EU citizens?*
5) We no longer have the military and economic clout that we once had, so could we defend ourselves as a small independent nation if attacked? *We've left the EU we're still part of NATO so again yes*.
		
Click to expand...

Answered your questions above. Personally I think questions four and five are ridiculous to even be asking.


----------



## delc (Jul 15, 2016)

*Re: EU Referenduma*



ColchesterFC said:



			Answered your questions above. Personally I think questions four and five are ridiculous to even be asking.
		
Click to expand...

Actually it is quite difficult now to marry somebody from outside the EU and certain Commonwealth countries. At least to get residence rights for your new partner. I know this because several of my friends have tried it. I believe this is to prevent foreign nationals from gaining residence rights through 'sham marriages'.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			I think the people who voted to leave believed too much of the rubbish printed about the EU in the right wing gutter press, and didn't think through the consequences of leaving.  In particular:
1) Will we still be able to trade freely with EU countries?
2) Will we still be able to travel freely in Europe?
3) What happens to UK citizens who live and work in EU countries and vice versa.
4) Would we still be able to marry citizens of EU countries if we so wished?
5) We no longer have the military and economic clout that we once had, so could we defend ourselves as a small independent nation if attacked?
		
Click to expand...

Unlike all the thoroughly well-informed remainers, like my brother-in-law, who voted to stay because we'd be stupid to give up the Â£4.4 billion we get in grants from the EU.  It had completely escaped him that after the rebate we hand over Â£12.9 billion to get those grants back.  The cretin had no idea whatsoever that we are net contributors.

But it's only the leavers that were ill-informed, ehâ€¦â€¦â€¦


----------



## delc (Jul 15, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Unlike all the thoroughly well-informed remainers, like my brother-in-law, who voted to stay because we'd be stupid to give up the Â£4.4 billion we get in grants from the EU.  It had completely escaped him that after the rebate we hand over Â£12.9 billion to get those grants back.  The cretin had no idea whatsoever that we are net contributors.

But it's only the leavers that were ill-informed, ehâ€¦â€¦â€¦ 

Click to expand...

We will probably still have to pay in either directly, or in tariffs, to continue to trade with the EU, but with no say in how the rules are made, post Brexit!


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 15, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Unlike all the thoroughly well-informed remainers, like my brother-in-law, who voted to stay because we'd be stupid to give up the Â£4.4 billion we get in grants from the EU.  It had completely escaped him that after the rebate we hand over Â£12.9 billion to get those grants back.  The cretin had no idea whatsoever that we are net contributors.

But it's only the leavers that were ill-informed, ehâ€¦â€¦â€¦ 

Click to expand...

I am sure you BIL appreciates you calling him a cretin. However the distribution of AID was done on application and we need to see whether that money is distributed or is used for other non politically worthy causes.
I would also point out that this was a membership to a club who opened markets up and offered othe positive benefits it was not just a charge etc...


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			We will probably still have to pay in either directly, or in tariffs, to continue to trade with the EU, but with no say in how the rules are made, post Brexit!
		
Click to expand...




harpo_72 said:



			I am sure you BIL appreciates you calling him a cretin. However the distribution of AID was done on application and we need to see whether that money is distributed or is used for other non politically worthy causes.
I would also point out that this was a membership to a club who opened markets up and offered othe positive benefits it was not just a charge etc...
		
Click to expand...

And both of you missing, or choosing to miss, the point; it wasn't about what the money did or didn't do for us, it was the fact that he thought, and was keen to point out to anyone who would listen, that the Â£4.4 billion was pure profit, given by the largesse of the EU without any contribution on our part.  No understanding whatsoever of the concept of being a net contributor.  And on that basis alone he based his decision to remain. 

As for my description of my brother in law, he may not appreciate it but unfortunately it fits him perfectly.  At least I have known him personally for some time in order to form the opinion, something that I doubt you could say about everyone who voted leave, yet you have said much worse about them throughout this thread.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2016)

delc said:



			We will probably still have to pay in either directly, or in tariffs, to continue to trade with the EU, but with no say in how the rules are made, post Brexit!
		
Click to expand...

If tariffs were applied to our exports then reciprocal tariffs would be applied to EU imports, that would be neither in the interests of the EU or the UK so I imagine every other option would be explored.  Many other countries trade with the EU without contributing or accepting free movement of people.    None of us know what the negotiations will achieve at this time so my optimism and your pessimism are only reflecting our wishes for the outcome.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If tariffs were applied to our exports then reciprocal tariffs would be applied to EU imports, that would be neither in the interests of the EU or the UK so I imagine every other option would be explored.  Many other countries trade with the EU without contributing or accepting free movement of people.    None of us know what the negotiations will achieve at this time so my optimism and your pessimism are only reflecting our wishes for the outcome.
		
Click to expand...

SR, I have no idea what sort of deal will be worked out but one thing that troubles me about your regular claim, that it won't make sense for the Eu to apply tariffs since we'll just do likewise, is this. If it doesn't make sense why do any countries ever apply tariffs? 

I get what you are saying and there is a modicum of common sense to it but I'm not sure common sense will apply. It is wishful thinking, I fear.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			SR, I have no idea what sort of deal will be worked out but one thing that troubles me about your regular claim, that it won't make sense for the Eu to apply tariffs since we'll just do likewise, is this. If it doesn't make sense why do any countries ever apply tariffs? 

I get what you are saying and there is a modicum of common sense to it but I'm not sure common sense will apply. It is wishful thinking, I fear.
		
Click to expand...

Don't the Japanese apply quotas as well?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			SR, I have no idea what sort of deal will be worked out but one thing that troubles me about your regular claim, that it won't make sense for the Eu to apply tariffs since we'll just do likewise, is this. If it doesn't make sense why do any countries ever apply tariffs? 

I get what you are saying and there is a modicum of common sense to it but I'm not sure common sense will apply. It is wishful thinking, I fear.
		
Click to expand...

Countries tend to apply tariffs as a method of protectionism, they want to encourage their populations to purchase Nationally  produced products thus creating employment and reducing balance of trade deficits.  They also do it as a method to stop other countries dumping their products into their market at very low prices which can destroy the local industries, look at the current situation with Chinese steel as an example and one where we are powerless to use that option.   

Regarding the UK and EU, as you will know we trade with them at a very substantial trade deficit and if trade tariffs were to be applied it would have a considerable effect on the car, machine tool and agriculture/dairy industries in the EU which would probably lead to a fair amount of unemployment in those industries.   For example Germany alone exports around a million cars to the UK per annum.   We cannot make comparisons with countries like Norway who are small countries with much less consumer purchasing power.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 17, 2016)

One for all the naysayers. Australia has already offered a free trade deal with the UK post brexit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2016)

MarkE said:



			One for all the naysayers. Australia has already offered a free trade deal with the UK post brexit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055

Click to expand...

Super.....Fosters larger price stays the same.
No idea what else we import from Oz other than it's people.

edit...........just remembered coal, our governments have closed the British pits and imported it from Oz.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Super.....Fosters larger price stays the same.
No idea what else we import from Oz other than it's people.

edit...........just remembered coal, our governments have closed the British pits and imported it from Oz.
		
Click to expand...

Have you even bothered to check any facts before posting that? 

Some facts for you about UK/Australia trade.....

1)Around 1000 UK companies are doing business in Australia and 1500 Australian companied active in the UK
2)Australia is the UK's 12th largest export market
3)In 2013 the UK exports of goods and services to Australia was just under 10 billion GBP
4)Exports to Australia include vehicles, medicines and pharmaceuticals, industrial machinery, clothing and food/drinks
5)Australia is the 8th largest source of foreign direct investment in the UK
6)From Australia we get software and media, wine, beef, diamonds, telecoms equipment, iron ore.
7)The UK is the 2nd most valuable market for Australian wine with 1 in 5 of imported bottles of wine consumed in the UK coming from Australia.

So not just Fosters, coal and their people then despite how you want to dismiss it from your usual everything about Brexit is bad stance. Wouldn't it be simpler for you just to come on each day and type "Brexit bad, EU good" and "Westminster bad, SNP good" as that covers just about everything you post.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If tariffs were applied to our exports then reciprocal tariffs would be applied to EU imports, that would be neither in the interests of the EU or the UK so I imagine every other option would be explored.  Many other countries trade with the EU without contributing or accepting free movement of people.    None of us know what the negotiations will achieve at this time so my optimism and your pessimism are only reflecting our wishes for the outcome.
		
Click to expand...

On the contrary... If the EU did not apply tariffs - in the expectation that UK would do the same - it would negate the original reason for that organisation's establishment! So the reasons for other member states to resign/leave would be reduced and by a significant reason! I cannot envisage the EU allowing this, as it pretty much imperils its own existence!

Also remember that while trade with EU is around 45% for UK, trade with UK, by the EU, is only around 10%! While the *value* of the trade is in the EU's favour, the *effect* of any change significantly greater for the UK!

For the specifics of the Auto industry, this is a particularly important part of the UK economy. While it's unlikely that the likes of Rolls-Royce, Bentley or Mini (all UK icons owned by German companies) would leave UK, there are quite a few other UK, based German owned, plants and subsidiaries that contribute significantly to local and national economies that would likely suffer! And this doesn't include the other companies from non-EU countries who use UK as a 'gateway to Europe', the whole point of which would disappear!

Mind you, if it results in an FTA with Aus, we could see loads of Holdens and Ford Falcons on the roads! Probably more Mitsubishis too!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			On the contrary... If the EU did not apply tariffs - in the expectation that UK would do the same - it would negate the original reason for that organisation's establishment! So the reasons for other member states to resign/leave would be reduced and by a significant reason! I cannot envisage the EU allowing this, as it pretty much imperils its own existence!

Also remember that while trade with EU is around 45% for UK, trade with UK, by the EU, is only around 10%! While the *value* of the trade is in the EU's favour, the *effect* of any change significantly greater for the UK!

For the specifics of the Auto industry, this is a particularly important part of the UK economy. While it's unlikely that the likes of Rolls-Royce, Bentley or Mini (all UK icons owned by German companies) would leave UK, there are quite a few other UK, based German owned, plants and subsidiaries that contribute significantly to local and national economies that would likely suffer! And this doesn't include the other companies from non-EU countries who use UK as a 'gateway to Europe', the whole point of which would disappear!

Mind you, if it results in an FTA with Aus, we could see loads of Holdens and Ford Falcons on the roads! Probably more Mitsubishis too!
		
Click to expand...

Thats a rather lazy way to look at it.  The vast majority of trade with the EU is with a few countries so considering at 10% of the overall trade is not a true reflection on the impact with countries like Germany and France.   Many countries have FTA with the EU so why would a UK FTA be any different.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Super.....Fosters larger price stays the same.
No idea what else we import from Oz other than it's people.

edit...........just remembered coal, our governments have closed the British pits and imported it from Oz.
		
Click to expand...

These are precisely the kind of deals we need prior to negotiating the eu exit. The more we have in place, the better for getting the best eu deal. Show them we will flourish without them and it's in their interest to keep us sweet.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 17, 2016)

Sorry to shatter an illusion but Fosters sold in the UK is manufactured in the UK.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*Thats a rather lazy way to look at it*.  The vast majority of trade with the EU is with a few countries so considering at 10% of the overall trade is not a true reflection on the impact with countries like Germany and France.   Many countries have FTA with the EU so why would a UK FTA be any different.
		
Click to expand...

No more lazy (and probably less) than your simple statement that UK has a trade deficit with EU! 

At around 2/3rds of the total deficit, Germany is the most affected country, but in terms of actual trade, UK - while a significant 'customer' - is only one of a group of 5 'significant' countries for German exports. And a less significant provider - thus the imbalance. This seems to imply that while Germany might be concerned about potential loss of trade - and that was definitely expressed - it would not be as significant for Germany as it would be for UK! Other, less affected, countries would likely consider EU principles - especially FoM - far more important! 

Presumably, the imbalance means that UK doesn't produce anywhere as much that Germany wants as Germany produces that UK wants - something that, given roughly similar population/manufacturing bases imo, needs to be addressed with some urgency!

Btw. Here are the figures I've used. As normal, you've not backed up you statement with actual data. https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFig...anyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Anyway, all of this analysis/negotiation will be down to the department May has specifically set up to handle. I'm sure they will do a 'sterling' job, but expect them to encounter considerable opposition and a long and expensive negotiation period! There will certainly be considerable work involved, even before A50 is tabled!


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry to shatter an illusion but Fosters sold in the UK is manufactured in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Don't shatter his illusions, he still thinks Scotland can join the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			No more lazy (and probably less) than your simple statement that UK has a trade deficit with EU! 

At around 2/3rds of the total deficit, Germany is the most affected country, but in terms of actual trade, UK - while a significant 'customer' - is only one of a group of 5 'significant' countries for German exports. And a less significant provider - thus the imbalance. This seems to imply that while Germany might be concerned about potential loss of trade - and that was definitely expressed - it would not be as significant for Germany as it would be for UK! Other, less affected, countries would likely consider EU principles - especially FoM - far more important! 

Presumably, the imbalance means that UK doesn't produce anywhere as much that Germany wants as Germany produces that UK wants - something that, given roughly similar population/manufacturing bases imo, needs to be addressed with some urgency!

Btw. Here are the figures I've used. As normal,* you've not backed up you statement with actual data.* https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFig...anyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Click to expand...

I dont need to, your data shows quite clearly that the UK is Germany's second largest customer for exports in Europe. What we export to Germany isn't what will put the pressure on them to want a FTA, it's their exports to us.   Germany sells us nothing we cant get from other countries, the same goes for France, Italy etc.  Do you honestly believe they will want to restrict trade?      You may consider my comment that having a trade deficit with the EU is to our advantage in negotiations as lazy but it's not, its simple and obvious and very relevant.  I million cars is a damn lot of cars.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont need to, your data shows quite clearly that the UK is Germany's second largest customer for exports in Europe. What we export to Germany isn't what will put the pressure on them to want a FTA, it's their exports to us.   Germany sells us nothing we cant get from other countries, the same goes for France, Italy etc.  Do you honestly believe they will want to restrict trade?      You may consider my comment that having a trade deficit with the EU is to our advantage in negotiations as lazy but it's not, its simple and obvious and very relevant.  I million cars is a damn lot of cars.
		
Click to expand...

Its Â£9 billion worth of cars from Germany! That's why German industrialists have been lobbying the EU and the German govt for a free trade deal.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...You may consider my comment that having a trade deficit with the EU is to our advantage in negotiations as lazy but it's not, its simple and obvious and very relevant...
		
Click to expand...

You don't appear to have absorbed the first paragraph of my post! I suggest you re-read it!

You don't appear to have absorbed the 2nd paragraph either!

Btw. I'm hoping that a FTA will be happen, but am pessimistic about the likelihood of it happening - without FofM also being involved!


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Super.....Fosters larger price stays the same.
No idea what else we import from Oz other than it's people.

edit...........just remembered coal, our governments have closed the British pits and imported it from Oz.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you delve - it doesn't take much - into the ownership of Fosters! It's certainly not Australian!


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I suggest you delve - it doesn't take much - into the ownership of Fosters! It's certainly not Australian!
		
Click to expand...

Awful stuff, no free trade deal required, ban it


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 17, 2016)

The problem here and we keep hearing it is the word "hope" or some anticipation that we will get a deal. 
I am sorry but hopes and expectations don't make reality and decisions based of them are usually worthless. Would you like to buy a car that hopefully starts or its airbags hopefully deploy under the legislated conditions...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			The problem here and we keep hearing it is the word "hope" or some anticipation that we will get a deal. 
I am sorry but hopes and expectations don't make reality and decisions based of them are usually worthless. Would you like to buy a car that hopefully starts or its airbags hopefully deploy under the legislated conditions...
		
Click to expand...

Well! we could adopt your philosophy of 'Give up HOPE, all ye that enter in'   Is it not possible that you can see anything in Brexit that may turn out well?   I think we all know the potential risks and benefits but your continual droning on about the negatives is now touching on the desperate, almost as if you want the country to fail.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You don't appear to have absorbed the first paragraph of my post! I suggest you re-read it!

You don't appear to have absorbed the 2nd paragraph either!

Btw. I'm hoping that a FTA will be happen, but am pessimistic about the likelihood of it happening - without FofM also being involved!
		
Click to expand...

I absorbed your message very well, by my reply it's evident I disagree with it.

The free movement of people cannot be agreed in it's current form, I think that will be a red line that has been well and truly drawn in the referendum.  There may be some kind of fudge whereby anyone coming to the UK must already have a job and I think there will be a cut on benefits before four years or so contributions.   If we were to piggyback the Canadian trade deal, which has recently been mentioned then that would stop free movement.


----------



## larmen (Jul 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			a red line that has been well and truly drawn in the referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Well, the red line in the referendum, based on what 'we' got promised is no free movement, no financial contribution, and full access to the single market.
 I guess it isn't really red, more orange, possibly a little bit towards yellow, or even green.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Well! we could adopt your philosophy of 'Give up HOPE, all ye that enter in'   Is it not possible that you can see anything in Brexit that may turn out well?   I think we all know the potential risks and benefits but your continual droning on about the negatives is now touching on the desperate, almost as if you want the country to fail.
		
Click to expand...

And your utter disconnection with reality and misunderstanding of basic economics and trade have been evident throughout this thread. You struggle with facts and cannot cope with reality. Your hung up on immigration, which is not all European migrants... You have looked no further than what the daily mail has told you.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			And your utter disconnection with reality and misunderstanding of basic economics and trade have been evident throughout this thread. You struggle with facts and cannot cope with reality. Your hung up on immigration, which is not all European migrants... You have looked no further than what the daily mail has told you.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a rather delusional post. I doubt if you have ever employed anyone or ran a business that operates internationally.  Do you have any qualifications in business?   I doubt if you have done any of these things but are just a frustrated guardian reader who thinks the state and your precious EU are responsible for keeping you in a security blanket.   I have probably forgot more about business and economics than you know.   Tool.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

So Nicola doesn't have a veto on triggering article 50.   This car crash interview reveals the spin she uses.

[video=youtube;xD-SM9BjjpQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD-SM9BjjpQ[/video]


----------



## MarkE (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So Nicola doesn't have a veto on triggering article 50.   This car crash interview reveals the spin she uses.
		
Click to expand...

That was outstanding political waffle. In a near 14 minute interview she answered nothing at all.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2016)

MarkE said:



			That was outstanding political waffle. In a near 14 minute interview she answered nothing at all.

Click to expand...

Yep! A very good example of how to say nothing about the topic/point the interviewer wants an answer about, but plenty on the topic the politician wants to talk about! While she seemed a little shaky at times, she handled it significantly better than the likes of how Michael  Howard handled his one with Jeremy Paxman!



SocketRocket said:



			...If we were to piggyback the Canadian trade deal, which has recently been mentioned then that would stop free movement.
		
Click to expand...

That would definitely be a good thing! I don't believe FoM was ever considered in this deal - because of the significant distances involved!

Oh! And it took 12 years from (official) proposal to fruition!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! A very good example of how to say nothing about the topic/point the interviewer wants an answer about, but plenty on the topic the politician wants to talk about! While she seemed a little shaky at times, she handled it significantly better than the likes of how Michael  Howard handled his one with Jeremy Paxman!



That would definitely be a good thing! I don't believe FoM was ever considered in this deal - because of the significant distances involved!

Oh! And it took 12 years from (official) proposal to fruition!
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't take 12 years to piggyback it and I believe I heard that Canada are happy for us to do that.

How can freedom of movement be based on proximity, that would be unreasonable.   The reason is that Canada, the USA, Australia, China etc would not wear it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So Nicola doesn't have a veto on triggering article 50.   This car crash interview reveals the spin she uses.

[video=youtube;xD-SM9BjjpQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD-SM9BjjpQ[/video]
		
Click to expand...

She NEVER said she had a veto [shakes head slowly as Daily Mail reader gets confused]

marke.......How can she reply to something that she does not control.
Different UK Government ministers said about three different time scales and options in one day.
Until the UK government get their act together there is nothing much the Scottish government can say or do.

Your slips are showing boys.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a rather delusional post. I doubt if you have ever employed anyone or ran a business that operates internationally.  Do you have any qualifications in business?   I doubt if you have done any of these things but are just a frustrated guardian reader who thinks the state and your precious EU are responsible for keeping you in a security blanket.   I have probably forgot more about business and economics than you know.   Tool.
		
Click to expand...

Tools are useful .... your not


----------



## MarkE (Jul 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She NEVER said she had a veto [shakes head slowly as Daily Mail reader gets confused]

*marke.......How can she reply to something that she does not control.*
Different UK Government ministers said about three different time scales and options in one day.
Until the UK government get their act together there is nothing much the Scottish government can say or do.

Your slips are showing boys.
		
Click to expand...

She can't. I was just marvelling at the ability to ignore everything she was asked. All politicians do it, but she seems especially adept. 
What she should have said was 'No we have no veto, nor any real influence on brexit as the country has already spoken in the referendum. We also have no chance of remaining in the eu, whether in or out of the UK'. 
But she prefers to waffle and to build herself up as the great Scottish saviour. I bet she watches Braveheart every night with her hot malty drink.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She NEVER said she had a veto [shakes head slowly as Daily Mail reader gets confused]

marke.......How can she reply to something that she does not control.
Different UK Government ministers said about three different time scales and options in one day.
Until the UK government get their act together there is nothing much the Scottish government can say or do.

Your slips are showing boys.
		
Click to expand...

"Shakes head"  Thats a good one even for you Doom, She certainly is a master of the old head shake.

Lets see what she actually said then.  Sounds very much like she was suggesting she had a veto to me.

[video]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-eu-uk-theresa-may-scottish-veto-block-withdrawal-a7141231.html[/video]


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			"Shakes head"  Thats a good one even for you Doom, She certainly is a master of the old head shake.

Lets see what she actually said then.  Sounds very much like she was suggesting she had a veto to me.

[video]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-eu-uk-theresa-may-scottish-veto-block-withdrawal-a7141231.html[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Did she actually state (or agree) that she had a veto though?

A 1 word (Yes/No) only reply please!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Tools are useful .... your not
		
Click to expand...

Thats because Im not one, you on the other hand are quite useful in typifying the nonsensical balderdash that so many of the Remainers are spewing out in their bitterness.  Get over it!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Did she actually state (or agree) that she had a veto though?

A 1 word (Yes/No) only reply please!
		
Click to expand...

I will reply any way I want   I knew it was a mistake to take you off that ignore list.  

She indicated it by replying that she was in a very strong position to block it.  A '0' word reply only please!

Back onto the ignore now Foxy as you cant help being my little stalker.  Bye !


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 18, 2016)

I think that some posters in this thread need to calm down, dip their heads in a bucket of water and put their handbags away

Before I get my infraction hat on 

Thank you


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 18, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Tools are useful .... your not
		
Click to expand...

Tools are only useful in the right hands; outside of that they tend to sit around taking up valuable space that could be put to better use.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I will reply any way I want   I knew it was a mistake to take you off that ignore list.  

She indicated it by replying that she was in a very strong position to block it.  A '0' word reply only please!

*Back onto the ignore now Foxy* as you cant help being my little stalker.  Bye !
		
Click to expand...

Phew! Thanks! That's probably going to save me a lot of time!

Btw. the answer was 'No'!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Did she actually state (or agree) that she had a veto though?

A 1 word (Yes/No) only reply please!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Foxy but I think you are being a little disingenuous.

Much as I may not wish to agree with Socket it seems clear to me that, for the benefit of her domestic audience, Ms Sturgeon was happy to, at the very least, create the impression that she had the power to veto Brexit.

She needed a boost as her much vaunted trip to Brussels had, as expected, achieved the square root of bugger all.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry Foxy but I think you are being a little disingenuous.

Much as I may not wish to agree with Socket it seems clear to me that, for the benefit of her domestic audience, Ms Sturgeon was happy to, at the very least, create the impression that she had the power to veto Brexit.

She needed a boost as her much vaunted trip to Brussels had, as expected, achieved the square root of bugger all.
		
Click to expand...

How am I being disingenuous?

Perhaps you would care to answer the question I posed to Socket - for which he seems to have thrown his toys out of the pram.... 

Did she state she had a veto?  No of course she didn't - because she hasn't got one!

But her implication - 'a very strong position' - is classic political speak (aka twaddle!) to push her particular 'position'!

Btw. It's no crime to agree with Socket! There's actually quite a lot (well...maybe some!) I actually do too!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry Foxy but I think you are being a little disingenuous.

*Much as I may not wish to agree with Socket *it seems clear to me that, for the benefit of her domestic audience, Ms Sturgeon was happy to, at the very least, create the impression that she had the power to veto Brexit.

She needed a boost as her much vaunted trip to Brussels had, as expected, achieved the square root of bugger all.
		
Click to expand...

I just don't get this .  I have a view on things and I am prepared to debate it, I get accused of insulting people but it is always in defence as most  of my posts get attacked and name called.  I guess it would be more comfortable for a group on here that take a left wing view on most issues if there were no opposing viewpoints, they could bang on about how Brexit is a disaster, how wonderful mass immigration is for our well being and how the nasty Conservatives are ruining the country.  Any counter views are normally met with remarks like Racist, Xenophobic, Stupid, uneducated and so on.

So, please explain to me exactly why you wouldn't want to agree with me? surely that would depend on the context and content of the subject.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't get this .  I have a view on things and I am prepared to debate it, I get accused of insulting people but it is always in defence as most  of my posts get attacked and name called.  I guess it would be more comfortable for a group on here that take a left wing view on most issues if there were no opposing viewpoints, they could bang on about how Brexit is a disaster, how wonderful mass immigration is for our well being and how the nasty Conservatives are ruining the country.  Any counter views are normally met with remarks like Racist, Xenophobic, Stupid, uneducated and so on.

So, please explain to me exactly why you wouldn't want to agree with me? surely that would depend on the context and content of the subject.
		
Click to expand...

Well on this particular topic you just need to look at my signature to see my position on the Referendum to see that I might feel that you and I would make uncomfortable bedfellows, politically speaking.

However, I am not a Guardian (or Daily Mail) reader and I do not think that the Conservative Party is the earthly representative of the Devil.

But I also do not share your view on immigration or the potential for a Utopian existence following Brexit.

Sadly perhaps I am one of those wishy-washy middle of the road types.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion (even you and your more vociferous opponents) but I am not obliged to share any one of those.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			How am I being disingenuous?

Perhaps you would care to answer the question I posed to Socket - for which he seems to have thrown his toys out of the pram.... 

Did she state she had a veto?  No of course she didn't - because she hasn't got one!

But her implication - 'a very strong position' - is classic political speak (aka twaddle!) to push her particular 'position'!

Btw. It's no crime to agree with Socket! There's actually quite a lot (well...maybe some!) I actually do too! 

Click to expand...


And there you have it :- "her implication".

As yo acknowledge political twaddle but all for a purpose.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well on this particular topic you just need to look at my signature to see my position on the Referendum to see that I might feel that you and I would make uncomfortable bedfellows, politically speaking.

However, I am not a Guardian (or Daily Mail) reader and I do not think that the Conservative Party is the earthly representative of the Devil.

But I also do not share your view on immigration or the potential for a Utopian existence following Brexit.

Sadly perhaps I am one of those wishy-washy middle of the road types.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion (even you and your more vociferous opponents) but I am not obliged to share any one of those.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the frank reply.  Of course I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me but on the other hand I would expect that to be on a case by case basis.    Without labouring the matter, my view on immigration is a points based system, I have never suggested we have no immigration.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats because Im not one, you on the other hand are quite useful in typifying the nonsensical balderdash that so many of the Remainers are spewing out in their bitterness.  Get over it!
		
Click to expand...

Get a plan, stop hoping and speculating .....


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks for the frank reply.  Of course I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me but on the other hand I would expect that to be on a case by case basis.    Without labouring the matter, my view on immigration is a points based system, I have never suggested we have no immigration.
		
Click to expand...

And I have not suggested you did, but I still do not share your view on the subject.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Get a plan, stop hoping and speculating .....
		
Click to expand...

It's not up to me to make a plan for the Government, I just have opinions, just like all of us on here.  Hope, springs eternal, it would be a sad state of affairs if people had nothing to hope for.  Speculating, well you have to speculate to accumulate and it's the entrepreneurs in business that make things happen, without speculation so many great innovations would never have left the drawing board. Ask Bill Gates.

You read the Mods post so just drop it now please unless you have some sensible points to discuss.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And I have not suggested you did, but I still do not share your view on the subject.
		
Click to expand...

Thats fine, I have no problem with that :thup:


----------



## ger147 (Jul 19, 2016)

Seems to be the theme round my way this week, and can't think why I thought it might be appropriate on here too...


----------



## vkurup (Jul 19, 2016)

While I agree we need to manage migration, i am not sure the so called dream of Aussie - Points Based System is the most effective answer. I hope Leavers havent voted because the Govt will introduce a PBS in the UK.  I am sure everyone is aware that the *UK already has a PBS in place* for non-EU citizens since 2008.  The success of the UK PBS in limiting immigration is questionable 

There is an interesting comparison done by Migration Watch http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/346   I dont know who funds MW, but I am sure someone will dig it out. 

Do  I know how to curb migration without pulling up the drawbridge.. No. 
Do I think the PBS will work in its correct form or without further widening the skill/cost gaps.. No.  
I am a sad Remainer with sour grapes and wishing for a second referendum... No

<flameproof vest>


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2016)

vkurup said:



			While I agree we need to manage migration, i am not sure the so called dream of Aussie - Points Based System is the most effective answer. I hope Leavers havent voted because the Govt will introduce a PBS in the UK.  I am sure everyone is aware that the *UK already has a PBS in place* for non-EU citizens since 2008.  The success of the UK PBS in limiting immigration is questionable 

There is an interesting comparison done by Migration Watch http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/346   I dont know who funds MW, but I am sure someone will dig it out. 

Do  I know how to curb migration without pulling up the drawbridge.. No. 
Do I think the PBS will work in its correct form or without further widening the skill/cost gaps.. No.  
I am a sad Remainer with sour grapes and wishing for a second referendum... No

<flameproof vest>
		
Click to expand...

Not many people suggest we need no immigration.  The issue is that WE can decide numbers and WE can decide who we wish to live here.   a PBS is not designed to cut immigration but manage it and to select the best people to bring in, unlike the shambolic free movement used by the EU.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 19, 2016)

A funny and apparently confidential briefing note for future of London as a global financial power

http://uk.businessinsider.com/confidential-deutsche-bank-briefing-where-banks-post-brexit-2016-7

Funny because it talks about how banks might relocate out of the U.K.  Silly people what do they think.. The U.K. won't thrive without the banks..


----------



## MarkE (Jul 19, 2016)

vkurup said:



			A funny and apparently confidential briefing note for future of London as a global financial power

http://uk.businessinsider.com/confidential-deutsche-bank-briefing-where-banks-post-brexit-2016-7

Funny because it talks about how banks might relocate out of the U.K.  Silly people what do they think.. The U.K. won't thrive without the banks..
		
Click to expand...

Just more bitterness that the vote did'nt go the way the financial sector would have preferred. London will continue to be the European hub for finance regardless. It has the infrastructure in place built up over hundreds of years that other European cities cannot compete with. As for certain banks moving staff abroad, what's new? they have always done that.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just more bitterness that the vote did'nt go the way the financial sector would have preferred. London will continue to be the European hub for finance regardless. It has the infrastructure in place built up over hundreds of years that other European cities cannot compete with. As for certain banks moving staff abroad, what's new? they have always done that.
		
Click to expand...

Also EU Banks need a passport to trade with the UK, it's a double edged sword.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 20, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...er-sounds-familiar-say-experts-20160720111106

And if you are a strident leaver then perhaps don't read it and get all upset, it's just a bit of fun.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...er-sounds-familiar-say-experts-20160720111106

And if you are a strident leaver then perhaps don't read it and get all upset, it's just a bit of fun.

Click to expand...

About as funny as a bag of A-Holes.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 20, 2016)

vkurup said:



			A funny and apparently confidential briefing note for future of London as a global financial power

http://uk.businessinsider.com/confidential-deutsche-bank-briefing-where-banks-post-brexit-2016-7

Funny because it talks about how banks might relocate out of the U.K.  Silly people what do they think.. The U.K. won't thrive without the banks..
		
Click to expand...

Jings that's bad news, hoose prices in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen will shoot up in price.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 20, 2016)

vkurup said:



			While I agree we need to manage migration, i am not sure the so called dream of Aussie - Points Based System is the most effective answer. I hope Leavers havent voted because the Govt will introduce a PBS in the UK.  I am sure everyone is aware that the *UK already has a PBS in place* for non-EU citizens since 2008.  The success of the UK PBS in limiting immigration is questionable 

There is an interesting comparison done by Migration Watch http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/346   I dont know who funds MW, but I am sure someone will dig it out. 

Do  I know how to curb migration without pulling up the drawbridge.. No. 
Do I think the PBS will work in its correct form or without further widening the skill/cost gaps.. No.  
I am a sad Remainer with sour grapes and wishing for a second referendum... No

<flameproof vest>
		
Click to expand...


You have posted a link from Migration watch to support your views on a PBS to manage immigration.  Maybe you would be interested on their views on what immigration contributes to the exchequer:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/386


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2016)

I suspect that to the UK contribute more to the UK economy than immigrants from the UK contribute to the economy of the rest of the EU (as many are retired and not working)  So the quid pro quo I hear Brexiteers talking on immigrants to UK staying here only if UK immigrants to rEU are allowed to stay in EU is not a balanced equation.  And sio I also suspect that the UK needs rEU immigrants more than the rEU needs UK immigrants.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suspect that to the UK contribute more to the UK economy than immigrants from the UK contribute to the economy of the rest of the EU (as many are retired and not working)  So the quid pro quo I hear Brexiteers talking on immigrants to UK staying here only if UK immigrants to rEU are allowed to stay in EU is not a balanced equation.  And sio I also suspect that the UK needs rEU immigrants more than the rEU needs UK immigrants.
		
Click to expand...

I doubt if those retired migrants in the EU are costing them anything much as they get their pensions and any benefits from the UK and any healthcare they use is charged back (unlike other EU countries we actually pay our healthcare bills)  They also spend quite a bit in the 'Pig and Ferret' and local Fish and Chip shops.

Did you read the paper on what Immigrants contribute net.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...er-sounds-familiar-say-experts-20160720111106

And if you are a strident leaver then perhaps don't read it and get all upset, it's just a bit of fun.

Click to expand...

Very amusing  ... I won't say anymore before I get implicated in an infraction


----------



## Region3 (Jul 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...er-sounds-familiar-say-experts-20160720111106

And if you are a strident leaver then perhaps don't read it and get all upset, it's just a bit of fun.

Click to expand...

or to put a different slant on it, more people think the moon landings never happened than think staying in the EU was a good idea.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 20, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Very amusing  ... I won't say anymore before I get implicated in an infraction
		
Click to expand...


----------



## drdel (Jul 20, 2016)

I see the same 'don't leave ' economic analysts at the IMF have revisited their models and are predicting the UK's growth will be ahead of the rest of the EU's countries and many of the G9 nations.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 20, 2016)

drdel said:



			I see the same 'don't leave ' economic analysts at the IMF have revisited their models and are predicting the UK's growth will be ahead of the rest of the EU's countries and many of the G9 nations.
		
Click to expand...

I saw that earlier today. I wonder if all those from the Leave side that were rubbishing the earlier reports from the IMF and saying they didn't have a clue will be as quick to rubbish this one. And equally if all those on the Remain side that were issuing dire warnings about ignoring the IMF predictions will be as supportive of this most recent one.


----------



## IainP (Jul 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I saw that earlier today. I wonder if all those from the Leave side that were rubbishing the earlier reports from the IMF and saying they didn't have a clue will be as quick to rubbish this one. And equally if all those on the Remain side that were issuing dire warnings about ignoring the IMF predictions will be as supportive of this most recent one.
		
Click to expand...

Cynic!

Spot on though:thup:


----------



## MarkE (Jul 20, 2016)

I always said the IMF were a well respected organization that knows what they are talking about.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 21, 2016)

I found this a very good article.  But then again I would.

https://www.opencanada.org/features/brexit-post-mortem-17-takeaways-fallen-david-cameron/


----------



## gregbwfc (Jul 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I found this a very good article.  But then again I would.

https://www.opencanada.org/features/brexit-post-mortem-17-takeaways-fallen-david-cameron/

Click to expand...

You're right, it is good.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Just more bitterness that the vote did'nt go the way the financial sector would have preferred. London will continue to be the European hub for finance regardless. It has the infrastructure in place built up over hundreds of years that other European cities cannot compete with. As for certain banks moving staff abroad, what's new? they have always done that.
		
Click to expand...

This response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning. Love it.. 
Arguing that the infrastructure existed for hundreds of years is like arguing that the Earth existed for millions of years so a bit of man made CO2 will not lead to global warming. There are a few examples of cities which had strong infrastructure but have fallen by the wayside
>>Glasglow (and whole of river clyde) - world renowned ship builders with strong infrastructure et al..  These days most non-defence ships are built in Korea or China.  
>>Manchester - world renowned cotton industry with hundreds of years of infrastructure 
>>Sheffield - Had more steel works for ages before it became known for 'the full monty film'. 
In every case a smaller set of companies continue to thrive but it will never provide the mass employment that the industry provided. In many ways the cities never returned to their former glory. Would we add 
>>London - Financial hub with hundreds of years of infrastructure before Brexit??

I am not saying London will disappear, I think it will thrive and find a way around it. In many ways, I do foresee a demise of 'traditional' banks and the rise of more digital. It will need a new set of skills and it will be world leading, but will it employee the massess as it does today - highly unlikely.  While i work very closely with technology and can talk for hours about how IoT, AR, VR, SMAC etc. will change the world, I cant understand what my teenage nephew and his digital natives operate or how they conduct their virtual life. 




drdel said:



			I see the same 'don't leave ' economic analysts at the IMF have revisited their models and are predicting the UK's growth will be ahead of the rest of the EU's countries and many of the G9 nations.
		
Click to expand...

To be precise, I think the IMF downgraded UK's growth because Brexit was a 'spanner in the works' (their words not mine). It is incidental that the reduced forecast is still ahead of rEU. So as long as we are a slither of points more than our ex, we are fine though we were going to be way ahead if we had stayed together. 


I am bit bored of all Remainers being called sore losers but the Leavers need to stop behaving like 'this is my ball and I wont let anyone play with it'.  While it your ball, there is only so much fun you can have by kicking it against the wall.  It is more fun to play with the rest of the world and learn/teach new skills.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			This response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning. Love it.. 
Arguing that the infrastructure existed for hundreds of years is like arguing that the Earth existed for millions of years so a bit of man made CO2 will not lead to global warming. There are a few examples of cities which had strong infrastructure but have fallen by the wayside
>>Glasglow (and whole of river clyde) - world renowned ship builders with strong infrastructure et al..  These days most non-defence ships are built in Korea or China.  
>>Manchester - world renowned cotton industry with hundreds of years of infrastructure 
>>Sheffield - Had more steel works for ages before it became known for 'the full monty film'. 
In every case a smaller set of companies continue to thrive but it will never provide the mass employment that the industry provided. In many ways the cities never returned to their former glory. Would we add 
>>London - Financial hub with hundreds of years of infrastructure before Brexit??

I am not saying London will disappear, I think it will thrive and find a way around it. In many ways, I do foresee a demise of 'traditional' banks and the rise of more digital. It will need a new set of skills and it will be world leading, but will it employee the massess as it does today - highly unlikely.  While i work very closely with technology and can talk for hours about how IoT, AR, VR, SMAC etc. will change the world, I cant understand what my teenage nephew and his digital natives operate or how they conduct their virtual life. 




To be precise, I think the IMF downgraded UK's growth because Brexit was a 'spanner in the works' (their words not mine). It is incidental that the reduced forecast is still ahead of rEU. So as long as we are a slither of points more than our ex, we are fine though we were going to be way ahead if we had stayed together. 


I am bit bored of all Remainers being called sore losers but the Leavers need to stop behaving like 'this is my ball and I wont let anyone play with it'.  While it your ball, there is only so much fun you can have by kicking it against the wall.  It is more fun to play with the rest of the world and learn/teach new skills.
		
Click to expand...

You are suffering from the same delusions (maybe sometimes inverted) as those you accuse.   

You suggests our major cities have been decimated of industry but what exactly has that got to do with Brexit.  The changes you refer to are due to changes in technology and by our own stupidity in buying cheap goods from China, India, Korea etc and closing down our manufacturing, thus wiping out jobs and creating a new generation of underclasses who have no suitable work, (everyone cannot be university graduates)  this removes their self respect and social  responsibilities.   The EU can do nothing about this change, it may even have contributed to making it worse.    We should be making as much of our domestic product as possible, it may cost more in the shops but it gives people work and reduces the welfare state. Nothing is better than work to drag people out of poverty.

You suggest "It is more fun to play with the rest of the world and learn/teach new skills"  Well! there is a very big world out there to kick your ball in and it doesn't end at the Mediterranean, what you suggest is to think small.  Learning/teaching new skills!  what do you mean by that?  we are very good at learning and teaching new skills in this country and will play our part in sharing and developing knowledge with our European neighbours and indeed the rest of the World.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I found this a very good article.  But then again I would.

https://www.opencanada.org/features/brexit-post-mortem-17-takeaways-fallen-david-cameron/

Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on! Though I would say that, given most of the 'reasons to Remain' are/were the same (more eloquently put) what I have posted throughout this thread. Actually, the difference in trade 'importance' (8% versus my 10%) seems even bigger than what I thought! 

Recent IMF figures are encouraging, but growth predictions everywhere have been reduced because of the result. Osborne's revision of the chance to balance the books (now none!) by 2020 was simple pragmatism, as well as good political sense - announcing bad news early and with a rush of other info!

I'm certain UK - and the EU - will make Brexit work, but (still) believe it's the wrong decision! No amount of discussion will alter that view, but I am certainly not going to adopt (what seems to me to be) the classic British (aka whingeing Pom) attitude of moaning about decisions when they had a chance, but failed, to affect them! 

There ARE positives about Brexit, so the country (via its politicians and diplomats) needs to get on, implement the decision and move forward - in another classic, but more positive British attitude - stoicly!

The big losers, imo, have been politicians! They have been shown up as irresponsible, egotistic, liars who 'desert the ship' irrespective of whether they win or lose! None of them, and that even includes May, have come out of this with reputations improved! The 'winners' seem to be the 'influential' Press, who continue to direct public opinion while taking advantage of the very things they are decrying in their rags!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely spot on! Though I would say that, given most of the 'reasons to Remain' are/were the same (more eloquently put) what I have posted throughout this thread. Actually, the difference in trade 'importance' (8% versus my 10%) seems even bigger than what I thought! 

Recent IMF figures are encouraging, but growth predictions everywhere have been reduced because of the result. Osborne's revision of the chance to balance the books (now none!) by 2020 was simple pragmatism, as well as good political sense - announcing bad news early and with a rush of other info!

I'm certain UK - and the EU - will make Brexit work, but (still) believe it's the wrong decision! No amount of discussion will alter that view, but I am certainly not going to adopt (what seems to me to be) the classic British (aka whingeing Pom) attitude of moaning about decisions when they had a chance, but failed, to affect them! 

There ARE positives about Brexit, so the country (via its politicians and diplomats) needs to get on, implement the decision and move forward - in another classic, but more positive British attitude - stoicly!

The big losers, imo, have been politicians! They have been shown up as irresponsible, egotistic, liars who 'desert the ship' irrespective of whether they win or lose! None of them, and that even includes May, have come out of this with reputations improved! The 'winners' seem to be the 'influential' Press, who continue to direct public opinion while taking advantage of the very things they are decrying in their rags!
		
Click to expand...

 +1 :thup:

But a word of warning... making such disclaimer wont help you to be accepted by the Leavers as someone who has moved on.  In their crosshairs you shall continue to a sore loser who is doom and gloom (thats just the polite version).


----------



## MarkE (Jul 21, 2016)

*This response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning.* 


That's because it's from a Leave voting pleb who's too stoopid to understand anything about finance.

You are hardly comparing like with like with your analogies. There's no reason for London to lose it's status in the world of finance. As for whether it will continue to employ the numbers it does now? who knows, probably not but that will be the same worldwide.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I am bit bored of all Remainers being called sore losers but the Leavers need to stop behaving like 'this is my ball and I wont let anyone play with it'.  While it your ball, there is only so much fun you can have by kicking it against the wall.  It is more fun to play with the rest of the world and learn/teach new skills.
		
Click to expand...

That's rich. I'm bored with Remainers bleating on about the injustice of it all and it's the Remainers advocating keeping in their own little insular eu club. Whereas us Leavers want to play, as you put it, with the entire world.:cheers:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



*T*his response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning. 


That's because it's from a Leave voting pleb who's too stoopid to understand anything about finance.

You are hardly comparing like with like with your analogies. *There's no reason for London to lose it's status in the world of finance*. As for whether it will continue to employ the numbers it does now? who knows, probably not but that will be the same worldwide.
		
Click to expand...

To quote from the High Commissioner of Canada for the UK (expert alert, expert alert) who thinks that there is....

_"But the financial services sector will definitely not do OK. The EU â€œpassportâ€ of regulatory equivalency that EU institutions grant to banks to operate under UK financial regulations will be withdrawn when the UK leaves the single market. This will be a lethal blow to the most rewarding sector of the UK economy (11 percent of Treasury revenues) that accounts for 10.2 percent of GDP and 3.3 percent of employment, mostly very high end. The migration of high-paying City of London financial jobs to a new financial center in Frankfurt, Dublin, Amsterdam or Paris will seriously downgrade Londonâ€™s status."_


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 21, 2016)

What makes the High Commissioner of Canada an expert on the outlook for the UK Financial Services sector?

In any event after the U-turn on the part of the IMF "expert opinions" seem to be rather devalued.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 21, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			To quote from the High Commissioner of Canada for the UK (expert alert, expert alert) who thinks that there is....

_"But the financial services sector *will definitely not do OK*. The EU â€œpassportâ€ of regulatory equivalency that EU institutions grant to banks to operate under UK financial regulations *will be withdrawn* when the UK leaves the single market. This *will be a lethal blow* to the most rewarding sector of the UK economy (11 percent of Treasury revenues) that accounts for 10.2 percent of GDP and 3.3 percent of employment, mostly very high end. The migration of high-paying City of London financial jobs to a new financial center in Frankfurt, Dublin, Amsterdam or Paris *will seriously downgrade Londonâ€™s status*."_

Click to expand...

That's all well and good and he may be an expert but surely at this stage it's nothing more than a suggestion or a prediction based on nothing more than guesswork. Until the negotiations over Brexit are completed and details of the deal are released then no-one can actually know what will happen. There is no guarantee that we will lose access to the single market, there's no guarantee that the banking passport will be withdrawn and there's no guarantee that all these high paying jobs will move to Europe. Surely until those things are known then it's impossible to say what will happen.

The whole point of the negotiations will be what the UK wants from the EU and what the EU is prepared to give in return. I would guess at some kind of compromise between access to the single market, banking passport etc and limited free movement of workers. The difference is that I'm prepared to say that it's a guess/prediction and not make bold statements about what will happen with no evidence to back it up.


----------



## teetime75 (Jul 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



*This response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning.* QUOTE]

Joe asked his Wife if she could tell him something that would make 
him laugh and cry at the same time.

She said. You have a bigger dick than all your mates.oo:

Sorry could`nt resist
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



*This response was funny and made me laugh and cry at the same time because of the simplicity of the reasoning.* 


That's because it's *from a Leave voting pleb who's too stoopid to understand anything about finance*.

You are hardly comparing like with like with your analogies.* There's no reason for London to lose it's status in the world of finance. As for whether it will continue to employ the numbers it does now? who knows, probably not but that will be the same worldwide*.
		
Click to expand...

Who then goes on to give several opinions on.... Finance!


----------



## MarkE (Jul 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Who then goes on to give several opinions on.... Finance! 

Click to expand...

I was being facetious, may have gone over your head though!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			+1 :thup:

But a word of warning... making such disclaimer wont help you to be accepted by the Leavers as someone who has moved on.  In their crosshairs you shall continue to a sore loser who is doom and gloom (thats just the polite version).
		
Click to expand...

Unlike you he is showing a balanced view.  Maybe you should give it a go :thup:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2016)

No free trade without borders ....says France.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No free trade without borders ....says France.
		
Click to expand...

Thats OK then.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 22, 2016)

On the plus side....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2016)

Looks like Edinburgh are the first City to leave Europe.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			On the plus side....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273

Click to expand...

Cant imagine what it feels like to hate your own country and wish it failure.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Cant imagine what it feels like to hate your own country and wish it failure.
		
Click to expand...

I think that statement has shown the disappointing level this thread has got too - it adds nothing to subject bar insulting someone, you have stamped your foot a number of times about the insults and things said to people who voted leave and you have just shown with a statement like that you are no better 

Not one single person is that selfish to want the country to fail - you have let yourself down with that statement and lost a lot of respect


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Cant imagine what it feels like to hate your own country and wish it failure.
		
Click to expand...

Ehhhh, he posted a BBC news headline:confused.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Cant imagine what it feels like to hate your own country and wish it failure.
		
Click to expand...

Quote liberating really. I'd describe it as the same feeling you get when you come out the shower and you put one of your wife's skirts on when you are alone in the house, just see see what it feels like. I've never felt so alive....


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ehhhh, he posted a BBC news headline:confused.

Click to expand...

With a comment "On the plus side"


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that statement has shown the disappointing level this thread has got too - it adds nothing to subject bar insulting someone, you have stamped your foot a number of times about the insults and things said to people who voted leave and you have just shown with a statement like that you are no better 

Not one single person is that selfish to want the country to fail - you have let yourself down with that statement and lost a lot of respect
		
Click to expand...

I think his comment "On the plus side" to a link suggesting there has been some poor results in the economy was a clue to why I posted what I did.   Or do I have to take everything he posts as a joke and ignore it .   I tend to take what people say as their intent unless it's obviously flippant like his last post.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			With a comment "On the plus side"
		
Click to expand...

I thought that was an indication of the ability of BBC news desk teams to unerringly print the truth.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought that was an indication of the ability of BBC news desk teams to unerringly print the truth.

Click to expand...

Whatever


----------



## Slime (Jul 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



*On the plus side....*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273

Click to expand...

Why is that a plus?
Are you hoping for national failure so you can say 'Told you so'?
Some people .....................


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

Slime said:



			Why is that a plus?
Are you hoping for national failure so you can say 'Told you so'?
Some people .....................
		
Click to expand...

Careful saying things like that, you may be called a 'foot thumper' and be letting yourself down.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 22, 2016)

I know sarcasm doesn't always come across very well in the written word but, come on, this one was obvious.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know sarcasm doesn't always come across very well in the written word but, come on, this one was obvious.
		
Click to expand...

Well it was if you are not looking constantly looking to be upset or offended by anything I post. But it keeps some people busy replying to my posts, I see it as some kind of community service, giving back to society. You watch, there'll be one to follow this post along any minute now. Bless them


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it was if you are not looking constantly looking to be upset or offended by anything I post. But it keeps some people busy replying to my posts, I see it as some kind of community service, giving back to society. You watch, there'll be one to follow this post along any minute now. Bless them 

Click to expand...

Whatever:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know sarcasm doesn't always come across very well in the written word but, come on, this one was obvious.
		
Click to expand...

I know this seems to be laboring the point but:  He posted "On the plus side"  Then posted a link to a news article saying there has been a downturn in business spending since Brexit.  Does that not mean this article was a positive piece of news for him?   He never posted a smiley, so how are you supposed to take it!  Do I have to think anything he posts is not what he really means or is that just when someone like me challenges it.

But I guess it will be suggested I don't have a sense of humor .


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I know this seems to be laboring the point but:  He posted "On the plus side"  Then posted a link to a news article saying there has been a downturn in business spending since Brexit.  Does that not mean this article was a positive piece of news for him?   He never posted a smiley, so how are you supposed to take it!  Do I have to think anything he posts is not what he really means or is that just when someone like me challenges it.

But I guess it will be suggested I don't have a sense of humor .
		
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself, it was obviously intended to be sarcastic.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			At the risk of repeating myself, it was obviously intended to be sarcastic.
		
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself, it wasn't to everyone.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			At the risk of repeating myself, it wasn't to everyone.
		
Click to expand...

If you say so but you're not daft so I am surprised. Anyway, I guess people can lay off attacking him for this comment now that I have explained it to you?


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			At the risk of repeating myself, it wasn't to everyone.
		
Click to expand...

HK. You nee to use more emoticons! 

Try this one!

Of course, readers could always read your sig! Or simply use that all too rare condition...common sense!


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it was if you are not looking constantly looking to be upset or offended by anything I post. But it keeps some people busy replying to my posts, I see it as some kind of community service, giving back to society. You watch, there'll be one to follow this post along any minute now. Bless them 

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I know this seems to be laboring the point but:  He posted "On the plus side"  Then posted a link to a news article saying there has been a downturn in business spending since Brexit.  Does that not mean this article was a positive piece of news for him?   He never posted a smiley, so how are you supposed to take it!  Do I have to think anything he posts is not what he really means or is that just when someone like me challenges it.

But I guess it will be suggested I don't have a sense of humor .
		
Click to expand...

First of all, I'd just like to say I voted Remain. Secondly, shockingly, I agree with SR.

HK posted some great informative stuff, pre-vote, but since then its been childish, snidy backbiting posts thinly hidden with smilies and sarcasm. Its petty point scoring at best.


----------



## Slime (Jul 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			At the risk of repeating myself, it was obviously intended to be sarcastic.
		
Click to expand...


It didn't appear so to me.
I'm convinced HK took solace from that article, apologies if I'm wrong.
Only he knows.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2016)

There you go, nae problem with Scotland within the UK within the EU 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36843814


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There you go, nae problem with Scotland within the UK within the EU 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36843814

Click to expand...

In that case England would need to 'Square the circle' be in 'uncharted waters'  put 'all options on the table'  'be given a mandate' nod their heads around a lot and then call for an Indi'1 and go it alone.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			In that case England would need to 'Square the circle' be in 'uncharted waters'  put 'all options on the table'  'be given a mandate' nod their heads around a lot and then call for an Indi'1 and go it alone.
		
Click to expand...

I thought that scenario had started already.



OOPS.......:lol: nearly forgot the smiley


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There you go, nae problem with Scotland within the UK within the EU 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36843814

Click to expand...

Far more likely that Spain would veto any move by Scotland to avoid a precedent being set and thus causing problems for them with Catalonia and the Basques.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Far more likely that Spain would veto any move by Scotland to avoid a precedent being set and thus causing problems for them with Catalonia and the Basques.
		
Click to expand...

How does it work with vetoes in the EU? Do all states have them on all matters?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			How does it work with vetoes in the EU? Do all states have them on all matters?
		
Click to expand...


I believe the Maastricht Treaty requires all member states to agree to new members.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I believe the Maastricht Treaty requires all member states to agree to new members.
		
Click to expand...

Ah cool, so the same reason "remain" said we'd be able to veto turkey's membership. Got it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I believe the Maastricht Treaty requires all member states to agree to new members.
		
Click to expand...

Yes..... only new member?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes..... only new member?

Click to expand...

And that is exactly what Scotland would be. The various treaties do not allow for regions (which is how Scotland would be viewed under EU rules) to have different status.

The Cyprus situation is totally different as the Government based in the Greek section is internationally recognised as the national Government of a Sovereign State.

In International Law Scotland remains within the UK.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And that is exactly what Scotland would be. The various treaties do not allow for regions (which is how Scotland would be viewed under EU rules) to have different status.

The Cyprus situation is totally different as the Government based in the Greek section is internationally recognised as the national Government of a Sovereign State.

In International Law Scotland remains within the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Much talking to do before Article 50 is fired up. [probably about 20 years:lol:]
It looks like Europe are working a way for Scotland to remain in the EU

Out of Interest, why are all the anti-Scots on here so desperate to keep us in the UK ?

One of my wife's relatives said to her the other night, 'I can't understand why Scotland wants to leave England, they will have to introduce passports and borders and all that.'  Yes, she was a Brexit voter:lol:


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Much talking to do before Article 50 is fired up. [probably about 20 years:lol:]
It looks like Europe are working a way for Scotland to remain in the EU

Out of Interest, why are all the anti-Scots on here so desperate to keep us in the UK ?

One of my wife's relatives said to her the other night, 'I can't understand why Scotland wants to leave England, they will have to introduce passports and borders and all that.'  Yes, she was a Brexit voter:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Well I am pro-Union and pro-EU and not anti Scot!

However, I do think you are kidding yourself that there is any interest in keeping Scotland in the EU on the part of the member states.

Ms Sturgeon was greeted warmly and then sent on her way with the words "Nothing doing" ringing in her ears.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Much talking to do before Article 50 is fired up. [probably about 20 years:lol:]
It looks like Europe are working a way for Scotland to remain in the EU

*Out of Interest, why are all the anti-Scots on here so desperate to keep us in the UK ?*

One of my wife's relatives said to her the other night, 'I can't understand why Scotland wants to leave England, they will have to introduce passports and borders and all that.'  Yes, she was a Brexit voter:lol:
		
Click to expand...

1) We are not mainly Anti-Scotts, thats a stupid comment.
2) Because we are unionist, just like the majority of Scotts.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			1) We are not mainly Anti-Scotts, thats a stupid comment.
2) Because we are unionist, just like the majority of Scotts.
		
Click to expand...

Soooooo out of touch that you cannot even spell Scots.

Perhaps that was an SR joke:lol:


----------



## dewsweeper (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Soooooo out of touch that you cannot even spell Scots.

Perhaps that was an SR joke:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Soooooo out of touch that you cannot even spell Scots.

Perhaps that was an SR joke:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear...  beware as hell hath no fury like a misfiring rocket..   coming to a post near you.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There you go, nae problem with Scotland within the UK within the EU 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36843814

Click to expand...


----------



## MarkE (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of Interest, why are all the anti-Scots on here so desperate to keep us in the UK ?
		
Click to expand...

Who are the anti-Scots? Myself, i'm fairly ambivalent towards Scotland. I'd prefer the Union to continue as I think it's mutually beneficial to the whole of the UK. However, if Scotland wants to go it alone, I would'nt lose any sleep over it.
The only thing that irritates is the constant anti-English slant to anything certain forum members have to say.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Oh dear...  beware as hell hath no fury like a misfiring rocket..   coming to a post near you.
		
Click to expand...

As far as having a finger on the Scottish pulse he has been misfiring for the past few weeks.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Who are the anti-Scots? Myself, i'm fairly ambivalent towards Scotland. I'd prefer the Union to continue as I think it's mutually beneficial to the whole of the UK. However, if Scotland wants to go it alone, I would'nt lose any sleep over it.
The only thing that irritates is the constant anti-English slant to anything certain forum members have to say.
		
Click to expand...

How many times do we have to say it is not anti-English it is anti Westminster and the UK political structure.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of Interest, why are all the anti-Scots on here so desperate to keep us in the UK ?

:lol:
		
Click to expand...

So who is "anti-Scots?"

I've seen plenty pro-Union, but no anti-Scots. Or does pro-Union make someone anti-Scots? And if it does, until there's another vote, not a poll of a few thousand, over half of Scotland is pro-Union.

I suggest you don't confuse the pro-EU vote with a vote for Indy. The SNP did that a few years back, thinking that because they'd been voted into Holyrood it was a mandate for independence. They are more intelligent than you, and have far greater resources to check the pulse of the nation, and they still got it wrong.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many times do we have to say it is not anti-English it is anti Westminster and the UK political structure.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the way it comes across. As for political structure, you don't think an independent Scotland would do things any better do you?  Politicians would still be looking after number 1. Some misguided folk seem to think Scottish independence would lead to some sort of political utopia.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As far as having a finger on the Scottish pulse he has been misfiring for the past few weeks.
		
Click to expand...

If the only way you can hold your own in a debate with me is to pick up on a typo then that goes a long way in revealing your mindset.  I don't misfire, unlike you, I make a reasoned argument which unfortunately goes a little over your head but Hey Ho!   You being a buffoon is nothing to do with being a Scott.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Oh dear...  beware as hell hath no fury like a misfiring rocket..   coming to a post near you.
		
Click to expand...

I took you for an intelligent person who was capable of a serious  discussion.  I wont be so crass to place you in the same category as Doon but I have to say that post was uncalled for.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If the only way you can hold your own in a debate with me is to pick up on a typo then that goes a long way in revealing your mindset.  I don't misfire, unlike you, I make a reasoned argument which unfortunately goes a little over your head but Hey Ho!   You being a buffoon is nothing to do with being a Scott.
		
Click to expand...

You have not debated, you have just traded insults, you have not offered up an educated argument on any point frankly you have just kept this thread alive with inane tripe ... Not one of the leavers have given a cohesive argument and that was all they were asked for. 
Any way what is the big deal about the Scottish now wanting to break from the union? I mean you all wanted to leave the EU so surely you would sympathise with the Scots wanting to leave a union that doesn't work for them?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			You have not debated, you have just traded insults, you have not offered up an educated argument on any point frankly you have just kept this thread alive with inane tripe ... Not one of the leavers have given a cohesive argument and that was all they were asked for. 
Any way what is the big deal about the Scottish now wanting to break from the union? I mean you all wanted to leave the EU so surely you would sympathise with the Scots wanting to leave a union that doesn't work for them?
		
Click to expand...

I will ignore the insult part of your post as it's just a personal attack and unworthy of a reply and totally ignores what has been said through this thread.

Regarding the Scots and the Union, how do you justify your statement that the Union doesn't work for them?  I am interested how you come to that opinion.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Any way what is the big deal about the Scottish now wanting to break from the union?
		
Click to expand...

Have I missed the referendum on this, what was the winning margin.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I will ignore the insult part of your post as it's just a personal attack and unworthy of a reply and totally ignores what has been said through this thread.

Regarding the Scots and the Union, how do you justify your statement that the Union doesn't work for them?  I am interested how you come to that opinion.
		
Click to expand...

You did not you reacted.
secondly if the Scots want to revisit their situation why is it an issue ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			You did not you reacted.
secondly if the Scots want to revisit their situation why is it an issue ?
		
Click to expand...

OK, if thats the way you want to discuss things.

I know you have a paranoid problem with me and suspect it's due to me making reasoned arguments against your bitter and vitriolic attacks on anyone that wanted to leave the EU.   Personally I am easy with people that wanted to stay, even if I disagree with their motives as I think we are all entitled to an opinion.   You seem to keep regurgitating the same old hackneyed storyline that the 'Leavers'  have no cohesive arguments, talk 'inane tripe'  and offer no educated argument.  What planet are you on (though I guess it's the dark side of the moon), have you not read the myriad of points posters have made or (as I suspect) have you decided to wipe it all from your small memory bank and take solace from your little group of oddball compatriots on here who still cant get into their little heads that the referendum voted to 'Leave the EU' and that is what we will do, so just suck it up and get used to it.


Hoooooommmmmmmm!  Ting!     That feels much better than trying to have a grown up discussion with you.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Have I missed the referendum on this, what was the winning margin.
		
Click to expand...

  :thup:


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2016)

Hard line Tory MP's have told May full Brexit or else, whatever the or else is. No budging on immigration. Hard ball on tariffs if the EU continue to "teach the UK a lesson."

No doubt it's posturing but...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2016)

I haven't yet heard a consistent and coherent definition of Brexit - so saying Brexit means Brexit is in fact meaningless - and as a result many of the Leavers don't like being asked - even although they seem to know what Brexit isn't.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven't yet heard a consistent and coherent definition of Brexit - so saying Brexit means Brexit is in fact meaningless - and as a result many of the Leavers don't like being asked - even although they seem to know what Brexit isn't.
		
Click to expand...

You know what it means just the same as I do, it means the Uk will leave the EU.

It's also clear that following the referendum that the ideal situation for negotiations is that the UK has complete control of who can come to live in the UK along with as much free trade with the EU as possible.  This is all up for negotiation when article 50 is evoked so how can anyone tell you what the final outcome will be at this point.   What else do you expect it to be at this stage, I thought it was quite clear on the voting slip what we were voting for.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You know what it means just the same as I do, it means the Uk will leave the EU.

It's also clear that following the referendum that the ideal situation for negotiations is that the UK has complete control of who can come to live in the UK along with as much free trade with the EU as possible.  This is all up for negotiation when article 50 is evoked so how can anyone tell you what the final outcome will be at this point.   What else do you expect it to be at this stage, I thought it was quite clear on the voting slip what we were voting for.
		
Click to expand...

OK - so what does Leaving the EU entail?  Some Brexiteers seem to accept there will be negotiation and compromise - but on what?  And where is the Red Line?  Further 0- you may have an idea what Brexit actually entails - but other than 'leaving' the EU is your view commonly held?  Even on the very basics - some want to be in the single market (BoJo); others don't want to be in the single market but have access to it; others don't want anything to do with the Single Market, but want a trading relationship with the EU.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so what does Leaving the EU entail?  Some Brexiteers seem to accept there will be negotiation and compromise - but on what?  And where is the Red Line?  Further 0- you may have an idea what Brexit actually entails - but other than 'leaving' the EU is your view commonly held?  Even on the very basics - some want to be in the single market (BoJo); others don't want to be in the single market but have access to it; others don't want anything to do with the Single Market, but want a trading relationship with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I dont know another way to explain it to you.  The first principal will be for the UK to leave the EU, I think that one needs no further explanation.   The next major consideration is what is the best mutual trading arrangement can we agree that is in the best interests of both parties and in conjunction with this can we make an agreement on the UK keeping control over immigration.   Do you think it would be a situation whereby we say "We want full and unfettered access to the single market with full control over immigration of EU Citizens or we will accept nothing"   You know we cant go into talks saying that, so it's a matter of whats the best deal the EU is prepared to offer as their bottom line and what we are prepared to accept as ours, hopefully they will be close, otherwise we will need to decide where we go from there.    I dont know what else you suggest we should do.   Do you honestly think there should already be a statement that we just read out to the EU with a take it or leave it option?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so what does Leaving the EU entail?  Some Brexiteers seem to accept there will be negotiation and compromise - but on what?  And where is the Red Line?  Further 0- you may have an idea what Brexit actually entails - but other than 'leaving' the EU is your view commonly held?  Even on the very basics - some want to be in the single market (BoJo); others don't want to be in the single market but have access to it; others don't want anything to do with the Single Market, but want a trading relationship with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I'd hazard a guess that as you've used the exact same language as is in the newspaper article you know exactly what was meant.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, if thats the way you want to discuss things.

I know you have a paranoid problem with me and suspect it's due to me making reasoned arguments against your bitter and vitriolic attacks on anyone that wanted to leave the EU.   Personally I am easy with people that wanted to stay, even if I disagree with their motives as I think we are all entitled to an opinion.   You seem to keep regurgitating the same old hackneyed storyline that the 'Leavers'  have no cohesive arguments, talk 'inane tripe'  and offer no educated argument.  What planet are you on (though I guess it's the dark side of the moon), have you not read the myriad of points posters have made or (as I suspect) have you decided to wipe it all from your small memory bank and take solace from your little group of oddball compatriots on here who still cant get into their little heads that the referendum voted to 'Leave the EU' and that is what we will do, so just suck it up and get used to it.


Hoooooommmmmmmm!  Ting!     That feels much better than trying to have a grown up discussion with you.
		
Click to expand...

Once again no answer , just a diatribe of tripe ...


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Once again no answer , just a diatribe of tripe ...
		
Click to expand...


You two need to get a room. 

Have a read of posts #5034 & #5036. As much as I disagree with Leaving, and some of SR's posts, I fail to see where he doesn't put forward reasonable reasoning. Yes, he does respond a bit sharp especially when someone has a go, like yourself, and he does respond sharp when its a constant barrage at him.

But a rhetorical question or two; would the UK govt declare its negotiating position in full to the population, bearing in mind the need to hold some aces for its formal round the table discussions with the EU? Has it even formed a full plan yet, bearing in mind the complexity of disentangling the UK from the EU?


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so what does Leaving the EU entail?  Some Brexiteers seem to accept there will be negotiation and compromise - but on what?
		
Click to expand...

An educated man knows that nobody can yet define what this means, the same way as those that wished to stay in the EU were unable to say what the way forward and what might or might not happen within the EU.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'd hazard a guess that as you've used the exact same language as is in the newspaper article you know exactly what was meant.
		
Click to expand...

What newspaper article?  I didn't read a newspaper yesterday - though I did buy the Sunday Herald but didn't get to read it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont know another way to explain it to you.  The first principal will be for the UK to leave the EU, I think that one needs no further explanation.   The next major consideration is what is the best mutual trading arrangement can we agree that is in the best interests of both parties and in conjunction with this can we make an agreement on the UK keeping control over immigration.   Do you think it would be a situation whereby we say "We want full and unfettered access to the single market with full control over immigration of EU Citizens or we will accept nothing"   You know we cant go into talks saying that, so it's a matter of whats the best deal the EU is prepared to offer as their bottom line and what we are prepared to accept as ours, hopefully they will be close, otherwise we will need to decide where we go from there.    I dont know what else you suggest we should do.   *Do you honestly think there should already be a statement that we just read out to the EU with a take it or leave it option?*

Click to expand...

Well that would at least demonstrate that we knew what we wanted - but I accept that's not going to happen and perhaps isn't a good starting point for negotiations.  My question though is more aimed at what Leavers think leaving the EU will actually deliver.  It is that that I do not hear a coherent and consistent definition of across the spectrum of Leavers, at the moment it doesn't seem at all clear that leavers actually know and agree on what they want other than leaving the EU - and they seem to have achieved that objective already.  So what is the Red Line leave will agree upon for a negotiated settlement - what are the objectives; and what are the non-negotiables?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			An educated man knows that nobody can yet define what this means, the same way as those that wished to stay in the EU were unable to say what the way forward and what might or might not happen within the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I'd have thought that an educated man would know the key aspects of what leaving the EU means; define one or more objectives for each; and put in place measures to determine whether the objectives had been met and what a successful negotiation would look like.  How are the elecorate to know whether negotiations have been successful and how will the negotiators know what the Leave public will accept as delivering what they were promised.

Anyway - I wish Davies, Fox, BoJo et al all success in their negotiations - and the best outcome for at least some of us, if not us all.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that would at least demonstrate that we knew what we wanted - but I accept that's not going to happen and perhaps isn't a good starting point for negotiations.  My question though is more aimed at what Leavers think leaving the EU will actually deliver.  It is that that I do not hear a coherent and consistent definition of across the spectrum of Leavers, at the moment it doesn't seem at all clear that leavers actually know and agree on what they want other than leaving the EU - and they seem to have achieved that objective already.  So what is the Red Line leave will agree upon for a negotiated settlement - what are the objectives; and what are the non-negotiables?
		
Click to expand...

I find your mode of discussion here rather strange, you keep asking what Brexit will deliver while knowing full well it will be for the UK to leave the EU and then arrangements concerning trade and immigration.  I think everyone understands what the ideal arrangements would be and even when they have been explained you keep asking the same question almost like you have turned off your mind to the answers.    You also know that there will be an extensive round of negotiations and the outcomes of these negotiations will not be clear until they have taken place.  It's getting a little repetitive to keep saying this now.

You (and others) keep asking the Leavers or Brexiteers what article 50 will deliver.   How can individual voters answer that for you, all they had was a tick box on a ballot paper, there wasn't a part of the paper asking you to create an exit plan on the back of the paper in less that 1,000 words.   The process to deliver Brexit is a job for the politicians and their civil service compatriots.  It would have been much better if Cameron had created a plan 'B' that would be the Government stance if the vote was to leave but he didnt, he completely mismanaged the whole thing due to him and others being so certain it wouldn't  happen.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd have thought that an educated man would know the key aspects of what leaving the EU means; define one or more objectives for each; and put in place measures to determine whether the objectives had been met and what a successful negotiation would look like.  How are the elecorate to know whether negotiations have been successful and how will the negotiators know what the Leave public will accept as delivering what they were promised.

Anyway - I wish Davies, Fox, BoJo et al all success in their *negotiations* - and the best outcome for at least some of us, if not us all.
		
Click to expand...


So you acknowledge there will be negotiations but keeping asking on here for answers. *The** negotiations haven't taken place yet!!!!!!!!! *How can anyone give you answers when no one on here knows what is being asked for????????????


----------



## larmen (Jul 25, 2016)

I thought he was asking for the red line, and that should be known before.

Otherwise, if you set your targets after the result you will always achieve them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

larmen said:



			I thought he was asking for the red line, and that should be known before.

Otherwise, if you set your targets after the result you will always achieve them.
		
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be a good strategy to lay down red lines before negotiations start.  The nearest anyone can get to a 'Red Line' is that the UK will leave the EU and will not accept free movement of people.   Hows that for a Brexiteer red line.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 25, 2016)

Regarding Scotland, can someone enlighten a simple person and tell me what specifically "Scotland's interests" are that Ms Sturgeon is so keen on protecting as Brexit happens.

Genuine question. Thanks.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Regarding Scotland, can someone enlighten a simple person and tell me what specifically "Scotland's interests" are that Ms Sturgeon is so keen on protecting as Brexit happens.

Genuine question. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

She is being opportunist.  What her interests are is making Scotland independent, She is using the Referendum vote to assist in obtaining her goal.   Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU probably wont happen anyway as it would be a disaster for Scotland and the EU wont allow it, she knows this but obtaining her ambition is nothing to do with whats best for the Scots.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			She is being opportunist.  What her interests are is making Scotland independent, She is using the Referendum vote to assist in obtaining her goal.   Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU probably wont happen anyway as it would be a disaster for Scotland and the EU wont allow it, she knows this but obtaining her ambition is nothing to do with whats best for the Scots.
		
Click to expand...

I actually agree with most of that. The only incorrect bit is saying the eu won't allow it. Eu membership in the event of independence would be quite straightforward.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			She is being opportunist.  What her interests are is making Scotland independent, She is using the Referendum vote to assist in obtaining her goal.   Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU probably wont happen anyway as it would be a disaster for Scotland and the EU wont allow it, *she knows this but obtaining her ambition is nothing to do with whats best for the Scots.*

Click to expand...

Isnt that true for all politicians wherein personal ambitions prevails over what is good for the country as long as you can whip up enuf lies and half truths to appeal to the emotions of 50%+ populations.. hey presto you win a referendum.  What you do after that can then becomes a millstone or you can hand it over to whoever else is next in line.


----------



## larmen (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It wouldn't be a good strategy to lay down red lines before negotiations start.  The nearest anyone can get to a 'Red Line' is that the UK will leave the EU and will not accept free movement of people.   Hows that for a Brexiteer red line.
		
Click to expand...

Well, but not everybody who voted out wanted no free movement. Yes, Nigel wanted it. And all the racists who voted out. And even some others.
But some people voted out while still wanting full access to the market and accepting movement, but they wanted control over the laws, the allocation of funds to the NHS instead of full EU contributions, ... . You can't just say that their red line now has to be no free movement.


----------



## Region3 (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			She is being opportunist.  What her interests are is making Scotland independent, She is using the Referendum vote to assist in obtaining her goal.   Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU probably wont happen anyway as it would be a disaster for Scotland and the EU wont allow it, she knows this but obtaining her ambition is nothing to do with whats best for the Scots.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, but rather than wanting to know what we think her motivations are, I'd like to know the "official" reasons.

As I said before, as far as politics goes I am simple, and probably very naive, but my thinking is along these lines - which is all guesswork backed up by zero facts.

The EU won't want to give us a free trade agreement because they need to make it appear that leaving was bad for us to discourage any others.
EU members have to abide by whatever deal is struck on our exit.

So if they impose a tariff on trade between the EU and the UK, is it in Scotland's best interests to pay the tariff on their trade with the EU, or on their trade with the UK?

I'd have thought it was the former, so was wondering what would be the benefit of Scotland being independent and joining the EU. I'd be surprised if it were because they'd rather have their laws determined by Brussels than Westminster, or if they wanted to continue with freedom of movement.

As I said, simple and naive, but what is the upside for Scotland leaving the UK and remaining in the EU?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 25, 2016)

Region3 said:



			As I said, simple and naive, but what is the upside for Scotland leaving the UK and remaining in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

IMO there isn't one. If we have to choose then the uk is more important to us than the eu. Just a shame we might have to choose.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

larmen said:



			Well, but not everybody who voted out wanted no free movement. Yes, Nigel wanted it. And all the racists who voted out. And even some others.
But some people voted out while still wanting full access to the market and accepting movement, but they wanted control over the laws, the allocation of funds to the NHS instead of full EU contributions, ... . You can't just say that their red line now has to be no free movement.
		
Click to expand...

I was asked what the red lines should be so I said what I thought they should be, I never asked you to agree.

I would suggest that the majority of Leavers wanted the UK to take control of immigration, it was the issue that made most people vote to leave IMO.   I take it you are not suggesting all or most of these people were racist in wanting the UK to have control of immigration, if you are then you have a poor grasp on the voters concerns, just like the political elite who completely misread the issue.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Isnt that true for all politicians wherein personal ambitions prevails over what is good for the country as long as you can whip up enuf lies and half truths to appeal to the emotions of 50%+ populations.. hey presto you win a referendum.  What you do after that can then becomes a millstone or you can hand it over to whoever else is next in line.
		
Click to expand...

You are making the mistake of the political elite suggesting the electorate are too stupid to understand the issues.  David Cameron et al tried that one and came a very big cropper.   People on the whole are not as stupid as some consider them to be and politicians ignore that at their peril.


----------



## larmen (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I was asked what the red lines should be so I said what I thought they should be, I never asked you to agree.

I would suggest that the majority of Leavers wanted the UK to take control of immigration, it was the issue that made most people vote to leave IMO.   I take it you are not suggesting all or most of these people were racist in wanting the UK to have control of immigration, if you are then you have a poor grasp on the voters concerns, just like the political elite who completely misread the issue.
		
Click to expand...

The point I am making is that the option was in or out. There is no out because off X or Y or Z or all of the above. So there is no clear mandate of what has to happen in brexit. No-one can say it's all about X, or mostly about Y. And the 'exit polls' don't count. If they are, then the answer is in ;-)

Even the brexit leaders would not be able to agree if they tried. Nigel and Boris had totally different reasons for out.
And of course not all people that voted out are racists, but all racists voted out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I actually agree with most of that. The only incorrect bit is saying the eu won't allow it. Eu membership in the event of independence would be quite straightforward.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree.  There are the objections of Spain and maybe others, there would also be the issues on whether an independent Scotland could meet the conditions of membership.   Scotland runs a sizeable budgetary defect and would need to increase tax and reduce spending on quite a large scale, I cant imagine that the EU would be prepared to make up the costs, they would probably be insisting on austerity conditions that would make the Conservatives look like spendthrifts.   There is also the situation whereby the UK as Scotland's largest trade partner by far could be in a position of applying trade tariffs, the EU currently makes up around 15% of Scotland's trade.   The other issue is currency, I cannot see how Scotland would be able to use the Pound so would need some form of interim currency while waiting for EU membership and if accepted into the club would then have to use the Euro.    It's as straightforward as a dogs hind leg.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree.  There are the objections of Spain and maybe others, there would also be the issues on whether an independent Scotland could meet the conditions of membership.   Scotland runs a sizeable budgetary defect and would need to increase tax and reduce spending on quite a large scale, I cant imagine that the EU would be prepared to make up the costs, they would probably be insisting on austerity conditions that would make the Conservatives look like spendthrifts.   There is also the situation whereby the UK as Scotland's largest trade partner by far could be in a position of applying trade tariffs, the EU currently makes up around 15% of Scotland's trade.   The other issue is currency, I cannot see how Scotland would be able to use the Pound so would need some form of interim currency while waiting for EU membership and if accepted into the club would then have to use the Euro.    It's as straightforward as a dogs hind leg.
		
Click to expand...

But brexit's a doddle and it'll all work out for the best? 

After some negotiating, independent Scotland would be welcomed into the eu with open arms. Sure there are things to resolve but that'll be much simpler than disentangling the uk from the eu. Try applying some of your brexit optimism to other issues you don't support.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			But brexit's a doddle and it'll all work out for the best? 

After some negotiating, independent Scotland would be welcomed into the eu with open arms. Sure there are things to resolve but that'll be much simpler than disentangling the uk from the eu. Try applying some of your brexit optimism to other issues you don't support.
		
Click to expand...

I admire your optimism and support for independence.   

I prefer to apply my optimism to things I do support.   Now if you are interested on my views about other issues then don't mention the CAP and it's effect on third world Farmers.  But that's for another discussion.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I admire your optimism and support for independence.   

I prefer to apply my optimism to things I do support.   Now if you are interested on my views about other issues then don't mention the CAP and it's effect on third world Farmers.  But that's for another discussion.
		
Click to expand...

My views on independence are well documented on here and that's not what we were talking about.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Thanks for the reply, but rather than wanting to know what we think her motivations are, I'd like to know the "official" reasons.

As I said before, as far as politics goes I am simple, and probably very naive, but my thinking is along these lines - which is all guesswork backed up by zero facts.

The EU won't want to give us a free trade agreement because they need to make it appear that leaving was bad for us to discourage any others.
EU members have to abide by whatever deal is struck on our exit.

So if they impose a tariff on trade between the EU and the UK, is it in Scotland's best interests to pay the tariff on their trade with the EU, or on their trade with the UK?

I'd have thought it was the former, so was wondering what would be the benefit of Scotland being independent and joining the EU. I'd be surprised if it were because they'd rather have their laws determined by Brussels than Westminster, or if they wanted to continue with freedom of movement.

As I said, simple and naive, but what is the upside for Scotland leaving the UK and remaining in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36878081

Five pretty good reasons there.

The vast majority of Scotland's MP's has no voice or influence at Westminster.

At least we shall have a bit of influence and a small voice in Brussels


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2016)

In Brussels you will have an even smaller voice as you are diluted further. I may be wrong but a quick check showed you have 6 MEP's in a parliament of 751. How on earth do you expect to have influence with numbers like those? That is also assuming all 6 MEP's will vote as a block. The voice will be a squeak at best. Believing that you will influence in Brussels is delusional.


----------



## Crazyface (Jul 26, 2016)

We are the champions my friend and we'll keep on fighting to the end...........

We won the cup, we won the cup eiadio we won the cup !!!!!!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36878081

Five pretty good reasons there.

The vast majority of Scotland's MP's has no voice or influence at Westminster.

At least we shall have a bit of influence and a small voice in Brussels
		
Click to expand...

Delusional.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In Brussels you will have an even smaller voice as you are diluted further. I may be wrong but a quick check showed you have 6 MEP's in a parliament of 751. How on earth do you expect to have influence with numbers like those? That is also assuming all 6 MEP's will vote as a block. The voice will be a squeak at best. Believing that you will influence in Brussels is delusional.
		
Click to expand...

A squeak is better than no voice at all.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Delusional.
		
Click to expand...


Rude, angry and arrogant


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A squeak is better than no voice at all.
		
Click to expand...

According to Nicola Sturgeon Scotland is in a very strong position to influence the discussions over Brexit so I guess that she doesn't agree with you that Scotland has no voice in Westminster. Or was she lying?

As an aside why is it Brexit? I understand Grexit if Greece were to leave or Nexit if the Netherlands left but it's the UK that is a member of the EU not Great Britain so surely it should be UKexit


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			According to Nicola Sturgeon Scotland is in a very strong position to influence the discussions over Brexit so I guess that she doesn't agree with you that Scotland has no voice in Westminster. Or was she lying?

As an aside why is it Brexit? I understand Grexit if Greece were to leave or Nexit if the Netherlands left but it's the UK that is a member of the EU not Great Britain so surely it should be UKexit
		
Click to expand...

The discussions are Scottish government led.
How can we be in a strong position at Westminster where every single bill or amendment proposed by the SNP is voted down. 

Brexit....its a word.
Some folk up here call it Engxit which I suppose is more accurate. [apologies to the Welsh]


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Rude, angry and arrogant

Click to expand...

I agree, you're that as well :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A squeak is better than no voice at all.
		
Click to expand...

So do you expect Scotland to have a majority in Westminster?  You have a devolved parliament and representation in Westminster, thats more than us English have.     In the EU you would have even less say than in the UK but I guess living under EU (German) austerity for a while and paying export tariffs to your largest market by far will soon get you complaining how nasty they are to you and threatening Scexit.


----------



## Old Skier (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Some folk up here call it Engxit which I suppose is more accurate. [apologies to the Welsh]
		
Click to expand...

Typical arrogance from the odd Scot - you cannot even acknowledge our vote.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So do you expect Scotland to have a majority in Westminster?  You have a devolved parliament and representation in Westminster, thats more than us English have.     In the EU you would have even less say than in the UK but I guess living under EU (German) austerity for a while and paying export tariffs to your largest market by far will soon get you complaining how nasty they are to you and threatening Scexit. 

Click to expand...

I doubt it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

It's true I tell you, I read it in the Chipping Sodbury Bugle.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's true I tell you, I read it in the Chipping Sodbury Bugle.
		
Click to expand...

Don't believe everything you read in that rag. However, if you'd read it on WingsoverSodbury.com then that would have been a reliable source.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 26, 2016)

Brexiters look away now.. 

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument. 
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading. 

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Brexiters look away now.. 

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument. 
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading. 

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714

Click to expand...

That old chip paper.  Get with  it your Yurt Dwelling Yogurt Knitting Amigo already posted it and it was rubbish then


----------



## vkurup (Jul 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That old chip paper.  Get with  it your Yurt Dwelling Yogurt Knitting Amigo already posted it and it was rubbish then 

Click to expand...

Yup.. Got it in a chip paper ..  Surrey chippys used to use the Telegraph but now use such low brow trash.. Times are tough, must be that Brexit thingi...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Brexiters look away now.. 

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument. 
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading. 

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714

Click to expand...

Thank you for that, scary comparisons.


----------



## USER1999 (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Brexiters look away now.. 

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument. 
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading. 

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714

Click to expand...

What an absolute load of drivel. 

I blame Kevin bacon then, as everything can be connected back to him in 5 moves.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 27, 2016)

An interesting read.. :thup:
As well as a short historical perspective, it would appear we also have trouble grasping irony, of course i'am assuming everyone actually read it.
For me, one of the most disturbing points was..
 3 Most people don't read, think, challenge, or hear opposing views...(apathy, appeasement) ??

This is how people like Trump become President, and how a country of generally intelligent people ignore the majority of expert advise, and vote to leave the club.

Perhaps now is'nt the time for a nicer brand of politics.
Are you listening Mr Corbyn ???

Of course these are my views, not yours, and as such are ment to offend no one.. 
Er... hang on..


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Yup.. Got it in a chip paper ..  Surrey chippys used to use the Telegraph but now use such low brow trash.. Times are tough, must be that Brexit thingi...
		
Click to expand...

You're way off the mark, it's got worse since Elvis started working there.   Did he give you a rendition of his 1965 Harum Scarum :rofl:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for that, scary comparisons.
		
Click to expand...


View attachment 20291


Or is it Dooned!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That old chip paper.  Get with  it your Yurt Dwelling Yogurt Knitting Amigo already posted it and it was rubbish then 

Click to expand...

I must say that I havent read every posts on this thread, so might have been a repost. 

Just out of curiosity... why do Brexiters want to ignore every expert opinion - and I am not talking about this particular conspiracy theory.  Do we say that nationalism has trumped expert opinions.  Or in the words of the wise Brexit leader, 'we have too many experts' and I guess he will visit the Gardener instead of a Doctor when he has a tummy ache.  I am sure Remain are equally capable of playing the rational/economics card. In the words of another man..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c6HDo7pNI

But again what would he know, he is only serving his notice period and in the words of another fearless Brexit leader he had an issue with Britain due to his past.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I must say that I havent read every posts on this thread, so might have been a repost. 

Just out of curiosity... why do Brexiters want to ignore every expert opinion - and I am not talking about this particular conspiracy theory.  Do we say that nationalism has trumped expert opinions.  Or in the words of the wise Brexit leader, 'we have too many experts' and I guess he will visit the Gardener instead of a Doctor when he has a tummy ache.  I am sure Remain are equally capable of playing the rational/economics card. In the words of another man..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c6HDo7pNI

But again what would he know, he is only serving his notice period and in the words of another fearless Brexit leader he had an issue with Britain due to his past.
		
Click to expand...

If it's possible to have a grown up debate on the subject then I am more than willing but when it gets into the calls of Racism, xenophobia, uneducated morons etc then sensible discussion takes a back row.

You must be aware that people are wired up differently when it comes to decision making.  OK, some issues are not for sensible debate, it's black, it's white etc, others are very subjective:  I don't like the taste of this, I like that colour or car, I  don't like marmite, why on earth would anyone vote for Jeremy Corbyn etc.   Our view on the world is shaped by many things: Our upbringing, the culture of our countries, how we are influenced by others, what we think is right and wrong and so on and so forth.  Another influence is the mistrust of politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes.   In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is  a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single undemocratic empire.

Hows that for a start.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If it's possible to have a grown up debate on the subject then I am more than willing but when it gets into the calls of Racism, xenophobia, uneducated morons etc then sensible discussion takes a back row.

You must be aware that people are wired up differently when it comes to decision making.  OK, some issues are not for sensible debate, it's black, it's white etc, others are very subjective:  I don't like the taste of this, I like that colour or car, I  don't like marmite, why on earth would anyone vote for Jeremy Corbyn etc.   Our view on the world is shaped by many things: Our upbringing, the culture of our countries, how we are influenced by others, what we think is right and wrong and so on and so forth.  Another influence is the mistrust of *politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes*.   In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is  a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single undemocratic empire.

Hows that for a start.
		
Click to expand...

But enough about BoJo and Gove and their attempt to use the referendum to become PM, what about the EU?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Brexiters look away now.. 

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument. 
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading. 

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714

Click to expand...

It is a good piece of work at comparing events and what led up to them, but it falls down in making projections. Things aren't cyclical as he suggests but operate more as a spiral, either up or down depending on how good the decision making is.

To take another perspective, a European historian has suggested that the EU is in danger of becoming another Soviet state with a central government getting further and further away from what its constituent states want. They had their conflicts with Hungary/Czech/Poland. Truthfully, we're already seeing that in Brexit AND what some of the eastern European states are doing over immigration, a basic fundamental of European law.

As a Remainer, the federalism concerned me greatly. I was for staying in and changing it. Hopefully, some good will come from Brexit, and maybe some of the lukewarm Brexiters will head back into the Remain camp if the federalism is dialled back.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2016)

GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.  

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc -  that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible.  The negatives have not gone away.  Let's hope many others take a similar view.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.  

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc -  that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible.  The negatives have not gone away.  Let's hope many others take a similar view.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.
		
Click to expand...

Let's not also mention that apart from a blip in housing sales that lasted a week business is still there at pre-Brexit levels.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.  

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc -  that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible.  The negatives have not gone away.  Let's hope many others take a similar view.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly good news!

But likely to also have been influenced by both the perceived length of time that will be involved in Brexit negotiations AND the cost of upping sticks an moving elsewhere - when the details of any Brexit deal are not yet known!

It's 'new' (as opposed to expansion of existing ones) investment by the likes of Asian car makers that will be the 'real' barometer!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But enough about BoJo and Gove and their attempt to use the referendum to become PM, what about the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, so it's not possible to have a grown up debate on the subject with you.  Maybe you could just stand aside along with your juvenile comments, but alas I know that's not going to happen as it's your lazy way of making an argument.  Shame really as you are capable of better


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok, so it's not possible to have a grown up debate on the subject with you.  Maybe you could just stand aside along with your juvenile comments, but alas I know that's not going to happen as it's your lazy way of making an argument.  Shame really as you are capable of better
		
Click to expand...

Argue the point, not against the person making it.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, were expecting an average growth of 2%. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			It is a good piece of work at comparing events and what led up to them, but it falls down in making projections. Things aren't cyclical as he suggests but operate more as a spiral, either up or down depending on how good the decision making is.

To take another perspective, a European historian has suggested that the EU is in danger of becoming another Soviet state with a central government getting further and further away from what its constituent states want. They had their conflicts with Hungary/Czech/Poland. Truthfully, we're already seeing that in Brexit AND what some of the eastern European states are doing over immigration, a basic fundamental of European law.

As a Remainer, the federalism concerned me greatly. I was for staying in and changing it. Hopefully, some good will come from Brexit, and maybe some of the lukewarm Brexiters will head back into the Remain camp if the federalism is dialled back.
		
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with this!

I do think the argument that creeping federalism being bad has been over-emphasised. Any excess can (and should) be challenged in the ECJ which, as a judicial institution, I have more respect for than the so-called 'faceless civil servants' that develop/propose the laws!), but that was an 'advantage' the Brexit folk always had and used effectively! 



SocketRocket said:



			...Another influence is the mistrust of politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes.   In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is  a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single *undemocratic* empire.
...
		
Click to expand...

Ii all depends on how you define and measure 'democracy'!

This referendum is actually the first opportunity I have had to have an 'equal vote' - or indeed a 'vote that could matter'! In all other elections - and there have been plenty of them - I have really had no say, because one of the candidates was guaranteed to win because of their overwhelming existing majority! That doesn't seem to be particularly 'democratic' to/for me! 

I don't actually have any (well, not many) issues with the 'political class'! As long as it's not corrupt! For the same reason, I'm 'happy' for politicians (anywhere) to be paid more/appropriately, the equivalent of, say, a specific Civil Servant, but forbidden (with threat of dismissal if discovered) from any extra-officio income not publicly declared, both on a 'register of interests' and when speaking on a matter where the related party is involved!

As for the removal of freedoms and liberty, the removal of 'freedom of movement' could easily be described as a major removal of freedom/liberty! So Brexit could well actually be acting counter to Sockets's desires - though I suspect there's a 'within reason' clause that he hasn't mentioned!


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, *were expecting an average growth of 2%*. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth. 

Click to expand...

Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the *Quarter* with the expectation for the *Year*?!


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the *Quarter* with the expectation for the *Year*?!
		
Click to expand...

Quite possible Foxholer, they're from the OBR so i shall check and get back to you. :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Argue the point, not against the person making it.
		
Click to expand...

I am more than happy arguing the point when the person/people you debate with make a genuine effort to discuss the subject matter without using a constant approach of sarcastic and satirical comments/links to satirical websites.  A modicum of humour is always welcome but not when used to circumvent the debate and score points.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the *Quarter* with the expectation for the *Year*?!
		
Click to expand...

Doh!!! 
No fool like an old fool... 
Still the Imf don't seam too optimistic for the future. Might just be sour grapes though for getting this forcast wrong.  
The Imf that is, not me.. I'm not important...


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 27, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, were expecting an average growth of 2%. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth. 

Click to expand...

The forecast was for 0.2%, so 0.6% represents a significant improvement over projection.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Let's not also mention that apart from a blip in housing sales that lasted a week business is still there at pre-Brexit levels.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and the FTSE 250, often quoted as the one that really shows the state of the economy, being made up mostly of smaller UK companies. This is now back up to pre brexit levels. Not that it seems worthy of airtime now that it's recovered.
http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-market-summary/ftse-250


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Yes and the FTSE 250, often quoted as the one that really shows the state of the economy, being made up mostly of smaller UK companies. This is now back up to pre brexit levels. Not that it seems worthy of airtime now that it's recovered.
http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-market-summary/ftse-250

Click to expand...

Need to remember to take 10% off for the difference in value of the pound against 'other' currencies! Probably not quite as much effect on the 250 as on the 100, but certainly a factor! Or maybe the BofE's decisions/policies have had a beneficial effect! Or maybe everyone is realising that there's a lot of work to do before Brexit actually happens!


----------



## MarkE (Jul 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Need to remember to take 10% off for the difference in value of the pound against 'other' currencies! Probably not quite as much effect on the 250 as on the 100, but certainly a factor! Or maybe the BofE's decisions/policies have had a beneficial effect! Or maybe everyone is realising that there's a lot of work to do before Brexit actually happens!
		
Click to expand...

But when the ftse100 rebounded, the experts told us that was'nt a true reflection and we needed to look at the 250. Well that has rebounded as well but it is'nt reported, probably because it does'nt fit in with the economists dire outlook.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			But when the ftse100 rebounded, the experts told us that was'nt a true reflection and we needed to look at the 250. Well that has rebounded as well but it is'nt reported, probably because it does'nt fit in with the economists dire outlook.
		
Click to expand...

But don't you realise there's a conspiracy by the establishment to overturn Brexit by the back door? Give it 6 months of dire warnings and there'll be another vote that will include some silly giveaways from the EU. Everyone and their dog will vote to Remain out of fear.


----------



## MarkE (Jul 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But don't you realise there's a conspiracy by the establishment to overturn Brexit by the back door? Give it 6 months of dire warnings and there'll be another vote that will include some silly giveaways from the EU. Everyone and their dog will vote to Remain out of fear.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think so. There's too many euro sceptics in government for that to happen now. Even the PM, while nominally backing Remain has always been very wary of the eu.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 27, 2016)

The latest GDP figures are almost irrelevant as they are before Brexit. So while every uptick is welcome, I wont read too much into it.  
This quarter GDP figures will also be irrelant as they will have some sort of shock in built into it. 
GBP has been steadily down since Brexit.  FTSE 100 is irrelvant as it is no mirror to the UK economy.  FTSE 250 is a decent barometer.  Good work so far from BoE (led by Mark grim-wet-haddock-slapped C).  Phil H doing alright with Treasury.  Drop in GBP meant we lost ARM, but gained some investments from the likes of GSK. 

Worry bits are around consumer confidence, investor confidence and purchasing  manager confidence.  By not triggering A50 immediately, we may have averted short term crises. No one can talk about long term impact until other external factors like US election, increasing geo-political risks in EU due to recent events etc come into play.. and everything will be in hindsight..


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The latest GDP figures are almost irrelevant as they are before Brexit. So while every uptick is welcome, I wont read too much into it.  
This quarter GDP figures will also be irrelant as they will have some sort of shock in built into it. 
GBP has been steadily down since Brexit.  FTSE 100 is irrelvant as it is no mirror to the UK economy.  FTSE 250 is a decent barometer.  Good work so far from BoE (led by Mark grim-wet-haddock-slapped C).  Phil H doing alright with Treasury.  Drop in GBP meant we lost ARM, but gained some investments from the likes of GSK. 

Worry bits are around consumer confidence, investor confidence and purchasing  manager confidence.  By not triggering A50 immediately, we may have averted short term crises. No one can talk about long term impact until other external factors like US election, increasing geo-political risks in EU due to recent events etc come into play.. and everything will be in hindsight..
		
Click to expand...

All pretty grim news then even the FTSE 250.  Marc C said he would like his Haddock back when you've finished with it.

This is another view that ha some balance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36897179


----------



## drdel (Jul 27, 2016)

Those of you who wish to believe "every expert Remain economist" (I'm one economist who disagrees) and other doom merchants might like to think how the UK compares with the RoW for business investment/location.

The UK is a pretty stable country politically
Labour force is generally intelligent and stable
Property is a relatively safe investment
Transport links are good
Corporation tax etc is reasonable
Currency is (on balance) reliable (at the moment competitive
the insurance sector works
IPR regs and other corporate laws are generally transparent and upheld, levelling the playing field 
Good Banking capitalisation/investor capital

Forget the financial speculators and short term 'betting' in the 'markets'. The UK is a very good place to do business when compared the other nations.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2016)

drdel said:



			Those of you who wish to believe "every expert Remain economist" (I'm one economist who disagrees) and other doom merchants might like to think how the UK compares with the RoW for business investment/location.

The UK is a pretty stable country politically
Labour force is generally intelligent and stable
Property is a relatively safe investment
Transport links are good
Corporation tax etc is reasonable
Currency is (on balance) reliable (at the moment competitive
the insurance sector works
IPR regs and other corporate laws are generally transparent and upheld, levelling the playing field 
Good Banking capitalisation/investor capital

*Forget the financial speculators and short term 'betting' in the 'markets'. The UK is a very good place to do business when compared the other nations*.
		
Click to expand...

The bit in bold is what I can't believe the media runs with. Everyone with half a cell will know that the market is, to a large extent, being played. There'll have been spread betting by the speculators, buying and selling stocks, shares and currencies. Failing businesses have the perfect opportunity to write up the accounts and statements to their share holders that will offset blame.

Or alternatively, we can believe the spin because it salves our conscience and satisfies our argument.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 28, 2016)

Been away a while and came back to 10 pages or so of this thread. I think it's safe to say that in that time insults have been a-flying and absolutely no one has changed their position an inch.
It's interesting that some people are so willing to spend so much time in such a futile pursuit.
Me? Well I wasted hours reading the stuff so I'm going to blimmin' well jump back in there too..

1) Brexit is not going to cause the end of the world. Trump and Putin going head to head just might (feels just like the early 80s again, doesn't it? )
2) Bankers and other financial experts moaning that we've brought on this mini recession ourselves because we stupidly used our democratic right is a bit rich considering the depths they and their international buddies took the whole world to in 2008 because of their greed and short-sightedness.

Back into my box now. Play nice people.
&#128536;


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 28, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			1) Brexit is not going to cause the end of the world. Trump and Putin going head to head just might (feels just like the early 80s again, doesn't it? )

&#63000;
		
Click to expand...

Oh great. Nothing but spots, insecurity and frequent humiliation to look forward to then.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 29, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			Oh great. Nothing but spots, insecurity and frequent humiliation to look forward to then.  

Click to expand...

Ah yes..
But in those days I never had a single hangover.

AND I had hair and a flat belly

I miss those days. 

&#129304;


----------



## adam6177 (Jul 29, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36912676 

Clutching at straws now.  I swear the Beeb has no shame whatsoever, they are the most biased organisation.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36912676 

Clutching at straws now.  I swear the Beeb has no shame whatsoever, they are the most biased organisation.
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct, they like nothing more than talking down anything that goes against the grain of their Liberal elite lovey hierarchy.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36912676 

Clutching at straws now.  I swear the Beeb has no shame whatsoever, they are the most biased organisation.
		
Click to expand...

maybe i mis understand this.  Beebs reports the drop in manufacturing confidence which is a fact.  how does that make it biased?  
They also reported the investments by Siemens and GSK, why did everyone not shout that they are too optimistic/backing Brexit etc? 

Just because the news does not favour peoples view on the the reporting, does it make it biased?


----------



## Kellfire (Jul 29, 2016)

How dare the BBC report things. HANG THEM ALL.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			...
Clutching at straws now.  I swear the Beeb has no shame whatsoever, they are the most biased organisation.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Thats correct, they like nothing more than talking down anything that goes against the grain of their Liberal elite lovey hierarchy.
		
Click to expand...

Utter Tosh! Their editorial policy - followed up by their actual performance - is as close to unbiased as it's possible to be!

And, unlike most newspapers - which are really simply a medium to broadcast the opinion of owners/editors - there are built in, and simple, ways in which *perceived* bias can be challenged!

Just because an article is published that conflicts with your own point of view (or bias?) doesn't mean the publisher is biased! 

There's a huge difference between publishing articles containing facts and taking a (editorial) view on what the facts in the article mean! THATS where the Beeb is different from newspapers!


----------



## jp5 (Jul 29, 2016)

You really are quite deluded if you believe that the the BBC are biased.

Easy enough to find positive Brexit articles on the BBC if you bother looking.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2016)

We're in the era of post-truth politics. Facts no longer matter, it's all about who can shout the loudest, play on base fears most effectively, promise the earth without having to actually deliver etc.

Cue howls of derision whenever anyone dares question the ideology with actual facts.

That's why brexit won, why trump will win and why, ultimately, the SNP will win an independence referendum.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 29, 2016)

You know things are bad when an article claims Yorkshiremen/ladies are the most optimistic...


----------



## jp5 (Jul 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're in the era of post-truth politics. Facts no longer matter, it's all about who can shout the loudest, play on base fears most effectively, promise the earth without having to actually deliver etc.
		
Click to expand...

You'll like this revelation then!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/clari...ion-amazing-things-we-get-back-if-we-leave-EU

"Correction - Amazing things we get back if we leave EU - 26/7/2016"

...

"Given that 4 of the 11 captions were incorrect this gallery has been deleted."


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You'll like this revelation then!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/clari...ion-amazing-things-we-get-back-if-we-leave-EU

"Correction - Amazing things we get back if we leave EU - 26/7/2016"

...

"Given that 4 of the 11 captions were incorrect this gallery has been deleted."
		
Click to expand...

My main reaction to that is that I very much doubt 7 of the captions were correct!


----------



## vkurup (Jul 29, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You'll like this revelation then!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/clari...ion-amazing-things-we-get-back-if-we-leave-EU

"Correction - Amazing things we get back if we leave EU - 26/7/2016"

...

"Given that 4 of the 11 captions were incorrect this gallery has been deleted."
		
Click to expand...

Do the people who made their decision to vote Leave based on this high quality journalism also get a chance to delete their vote?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

Scraping the barrel for succor with that


----------



## adam6177 (Jul 29, 2016)

vkurup said:



			maybe i mis understand this.  Beebs reports the drop in manufacturing confidence which is a fact.  how does that make it biased?  
They also reported the investments by Siemens and GSK, why did everyone not shout that they are too optimistic/backing Brexit etc? 

Just because the news does not favour peoples view on the the reporting, does it make it biased?
		
Click to expand...

This one article alone, no I am in full agreement does not make them biased.  My opinion on the BBC and their anti Brexit campaign is based on weeks and weeks of articles which have frankly been embarrassing.  Even on articles which are "positive" for us post brexit they've managed to spin their agenda.  



Foxholer said:



			Utter Tosh! Their editorial policy - followed up by their actual performance - is as close to unbiased as it's possible to be!

And, unlike most newspapers - which are really simply a medium to broadcast the opinion of owners/editors - there are built in, and simple, ways in which *perceived* bias can be challenged!

Just because an article is published that conflicts with your own point of view (or bias?) doesn't mean the publisher is biased! 

There's a huge difference between publishing articles containing facts and taking a (editorial) view on what the facts in the article mean! THATS where the Beeb is different from newspapers!
		
Click to expand...

I partially agree with you, but for my reasons above I cannot agree that they are no biased on this subject.

Also, an article about "confidence" is purely subjective....because you're confident or unconfident about something means absolutely nothing to the outcome.



jp5 said:



			You really are quite deluded if you believe that the the BBC are biased.

Easy enough to find positive Brexit articles on the BBC if you bother looking.
		
Click to expand...

Deluded?....try opening your eyes.



All of the above is my opinion.


----------



## vkurup (Jul 29, 2016)

The telly at work has BBC News playing.  Walked past it and they are running a story of how the great British Bulldog is a dying breed and would need to be cross bred with other breeds maybe from the Continent to ensure it will survive.  I mean Brexit news is plunging to new depths on the Beebs..


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2016)

Any specific examples of supposed bbc bias? Sure it wasn't just stories with facts that didn't square with your own bias?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Any specific examples of supposed bbc bias? Sure it wasn't just stories with facts that didn't square with your own bias?
		
Click to expand...

You'll see the Beeb apologise at least once a month on their Saturday morning slot for inaccurate and/or biased reporting.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You'll see the Beeb apologise at least once a month on their Saturday morning slot for inaccurate and/or biased reporting.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt. I'm looking for specifics though?


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You'll see the Beeb apologise at least once a month on their Saturday morning slot for inaccurate and/or biased reporting.
		
Click to expand...

That's pretty much 'excellent' statistics imo - out of the thousands of articles they produce!

The fact that that Saturday morning slot exists is a demonstration of their 'commitment to excellence'!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Tosh! Their editorial policy - followed up by their actual performance - is as close to unbiased as it's possible to be!

And, unlike most newspapers - which are really simply a medium to broadcast the opinion of owners/editors - there are built in, and simple, ways in which *perceived* bias can be challenged!

Just because an article is published that conflicts with your own point of view (or bias?) doesn't mean the publisher is biased! 

There's a huge difference between publishing articles containing facts and taking a (editorial) view on what the facts in the article mean! THATS where the Beeb is different from newspapers!
		
Click to expand...

Careful Foxholer, we are living in another world now.  Trump is a credible candidate to run one of the worlds superpowers, facts are redundant, isolationaim is the way forwards.  Everyone knows that if you do not subscribe to the Dacre/Murdoch/Torygraphs unique brand of compassion, tolerance and understanding then you are a biased liberal yoghurt muncher.  Or something like that.   

it is hard work you country hater   http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

And usual warning, rude words, bit of humour, grow up etc etc


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			No doubt. I'm looking for specifics though?
		
Click to expand...

Not a specific case but rather an overview of the way the BBC applies a bias to certain issues:

[video=youtube;tinlaLkZgy0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tinlaLkZgy0[/video]


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Careful Foxholer, we are living in another world now.  Trump is a credible candidate to run one of the worlds superpowers, facts are redundant, isolationaim is the way forwards.  Everyone knows that if you do not subscribe to the Dacre/Murdoch/Torygraphs unique brand of compassion, tolerance and understanding then you are a biased liberal yoghurt muncher.  Or something like that.   

it is hard work you country hater   http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

And usual warning, rude words, bit of humour, grow up etc etc
		
Click to expand...

Heres a fWit who has a contrary view to  Yoghurt Knitting, whinging, Remainers.   Usual warning that it may offend some who want every race in the  olympics to be re-run if the person coming second is less that a whole second behind.

[video=youtube;5LCGcg7thEw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCGcg7thEw[/video]


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 29, 2016)

Does f wit stand for what i think it does.??


----------



## adam6177 (Jul 29, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027 

This article is a perfect example.

What gsk chose to do could have been written in a really positive light. Yet the BBC choose the 'quote' attractive. Also using wording as 'despite brexit' followed by the tone of Simon jacks analysis.

They are guilty time and time again of reporting in such a 'glum' tone that no wonder 'confidence' is affected.  Again a completely subjective word that is purely in the eyes of the individual.

This article could have been written as a glowing show of confidence in our future.  the media as a whole have a massive effect  on the feel of the nation and on how our future will pan out, they could help by not being so down in the mouth about good news!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			Does f wit stand for what i think it does.?? 

Click to expand...

You will have to read the link from Hacker Khan to find out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027 

This article is a perfect example.

What gsk chose to do could have been written in a really positive light. Yet the BBC choose the 'quote' attractive. Also using wording as 'despite brexit' followed by the tone of Simon jacks analysis.

They are guilty time and time again of reporting in such a 'glum' tone that no wonder 'confidence' is affected.  Again a completely subjective word that is purely in the eyes of the individual.

This article could have been written as a glowing show of confidence in our future.  the media as a whole have a massive effect  on the feel of the nation and on how our future will pan out, they could help by not being so down in the mouth about good news!
		
Click to expand...

Heres another report from the BBC that paints a dramatically gloomy picture on some news that although negative it's nothing like the report portrays.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You will have to read the link from Hacker Khan to find out.
		
Click to expand...

Well i must say I'm shocked.
Witt implies a modicum of intelligence, that'll never do..


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027 

This article is a perfect example.

What gsk chose to do could have been written in a really positive light. Yet the BBC choose the 'quote' attractive. Also using wording as 'despite brexit' followed by the tone of Simon jacks analysis.

They are guilty time and time again of reporting in such a 'glum' tone that no wonder 'confidence' is affected.  Again a completely subjective word that is purely in the eyes of the individual.

This article could have been written as a glowing show of confidence in our future.  the media as a whole have a massive effect  on the feel of the nation and on how our future will pan out, they could help by not being so down in the mouth about good news!
		
Click to expand...

Really? That's the article you choose?

"Attractive" was in quotes because, err, they were quoting GSK. There's nothing negative about the tone, just matter of fact.

As I thought, this just confirms your paranoia.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 29, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Careful Foxholer, we are living in another world now.  Trump is a credible candidate to run one of the worlds superpowers, facts are redundant, isolationaim is the way forwards.  Everyone knows that if you do not subscribe to the Dacre/Murdoch/Torygraphs unique brand of compassion, tolerance and understanding then you are a biased liberal yoghurt muncher.  Or something like that.   

it is hard work you country hater   http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

And usual warning, rude words, bit of humour, grow up etc etc
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment but have you ever read Polly Toynbee or Owen Jones.

Similar polarisation of others views seen through the other side of the spectrum. 

And many who are left of centre refer to the current Government as extreme right wing which is rather like calling the late John Smith as being left of Lenin.

Everyone has an angle.


----------



## jp5 (Jul 29, 2016)

adam6177 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027 

This article is a perfect example.

They are guilty time and time again of reporting in such a 'glum' tone that no wonder 'confidence' is affected.
		
Click to expand...

Are you serious? It's a balanced article. If you don't see it, it may be you who are biased.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2016)

Ford Motors clearly don't fully understand the Brave New World that will be a Brexitted UK.  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ies-in-leave-towns-after-brexit-a7162561.html


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ford Motors clearly don't fully understand the Brave New World that will be a Brexitted UK.  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ies-in-leave-towns-after-brexit-a7162561.html

Click to expand...

A bad example I am afraid.

Ford's problems existed long before Brexit and these possible actions have been under consideration for some time.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2016)

Some very interesting articles, with each side using whatever slim pickings there are to support their argument.

So how does big business budget its operations and strategies in the modern world?

I'm currently working on detailed budgeting and strategy for *2018*. Budgeting, typically, runs 5 year rolling forecasts and strategies. Year 5 might only be an outline but it is linked with each previous year in so much as it builds on the budgets and strategies in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. 

For any business to change its strategy, and financial planning for next year will mean, potentially, throwing away a lot of investment that has brought them to the position they are in today.

Those companies that are announcing changes in direction now, and using Brexit as an excuse, are basically spinning something for their share holders to hide deeper concerns, or are using it as an excuse to announce plans that would have been relatively unpalatable to the country they are in and their workforce. Pausing an investment, e.g. Siemens in Hull, makes some sense. But major changes in direction one month into Brexit, and blaming it on Brexit is disingenuous.

All the media, not just the Beeb, are shallow in their reporting and spin it to sell copy or to support their political stance. There's few genuine reporters out there and when you find one you will balance it against your own beliefs anyway. What is one person's hero is another person's villain.


----------



## adam6177 (Jul 30, 2016)

There's just no reasoning with some, only see what you want to see.  Blinkered is no way to love life.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There's just no reasoning with some, only see what you want to see.  Blinkered is no way to love life.
		
Click to expand...

One person's reason is another person's folly. Some think Labour are rubbish, and others think the same of the Tories. Some are willing to risk a downturn in the economy to take the country in a different direction, whilst others want growth at the expense of federalism. Neither are wrong.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There's just no reasoning with some, only see what you want to see.  Blinkered is no way to love life.
		
Click to expand...

Please explain what an unblinkered view is?

Do you like Marmite?


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain what an unblinkered view is?

Do you like Marmite?
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm Marmite.

For 35 years of my life I thought of it as a poor but acceptable spread for my toast. (Well down the list after marmalade, various jams ((excluding raspberry of course)), Nutella, meat spread but above honey)

Until the then new Mrs Backsknackered gave me Marmite and cheese on crumpet !!

A whole new experience  &#128512;

But is my view unblinkered? I'm yet to try Marmite with marmalade on toast.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Jul 30, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There's just no reasoning with some, only see what you want to see.  Blinkered is no way to love life.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Hmmm Marmite.

For 35 years of my life I thought of it as a poor but acceptable spread for my toast. (Well down the list after marmalade, various jams ((excluding raspberry of course)), Nutella, meat spread but above honey)

Until the then new Mrs Backsknackered gave me Marmite and cheese on crumpet !!

A whole new experience  &#128512;

But is my view unblinkered? I'm yet to try Marmite with marmalade on toast.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for the literal reply.    I was using marmite more of a suggestion that peoples views differ just like some people liking or disliking marmite.   

Not sure if marmite and marmalade go together, thats a bit like Corbyn and Labour MPs.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok, thanks for the literal reply.    I was using marmite more of a suggestion that peoples views differ just like some people liking or disliking marmite.   

Not sure if marmite and marmalade go together, thats a bit like Corbyn and Labour MPs.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, but am I blinkered? I'll change my views so far but until I see someone enjoying Marmite and marmalade it's not going in my mouth. &#128562;
Same thing with Brexit. There's been nothing on any of the last 20 or so pages that has changed a single person's position. So
A) Why are so many people still banging their heads against a brick wall trying to change others' views and 
B) Why am I still reading it all.

Ps still loving all the hate and pettiness ( think that answers B)

Gotta go watch Celeb Big Bro repeats now.

&#128519;&#128521;&#128521;&#128565;


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Ah, but am I blinkered? I'll change my views so far but until I see someone enjoying Marmite and marmalade it's not going in my mouth. &#128562;
Same thing with Brexit. There's been nothing on any of the last 20 or so pages that has changed a single person's position. So
A) Why are so many people still banging their heads against a brick wall trying to change others' views and 
B) Why am I still reading it all.

Ps still loving all the hate and pettiness ( think that answers B)

Gotta go watch Celeb Big Bro repeats now.

&#128519;&#128521;&#128521;&#128565;
		
Click to expand...

Did I suggest you were blinkered.

As you suggest it's not compulsory viewing.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

Hi



Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Hmmm Marmite.

For 35 years of my life I thought of it as a poor but acceptable spread for my toast. (Well down the list after marmalade, various jams ((excluding raspberry of course)), Nutella, meat spread but above honey)

Until the then new Mrs Backsknackered gave me Marmite and cheese on crumpet !!

A whole new experience  &#62976;

But is my view unblinkered? I'm yet to try Marmite with marmalade on toast.
		
Click to expand...

Marmite and cheese melted over a scotch egg.
Even the dog won't eat it.
Absolute bliss, left alone to eat and enjoy..:thup:


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

adam6177 said:



			There's just no reasoning with some, only see what you want to see.  Blinkered is no way to love life.
		
Click to expand...

And this years prize for stunning unintentional irony goes to......
:lol:


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I suggest you were blinkered.

As you suggest it's not compulsory viewing.
		
Click to expand...

No. You asked the question generally.

The answer, which could apply to virtually every post in this thread is...

It depends...

I mean, Marmite and Scotch egg?????
Gonna take a couple of beers before I try that.

&#128561;&#128556;&#128531;

(But I think one day I probably will...Only live once and all that. It only takes a second to croak. Every choke is a good choke etc.)


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			No. You asked the question generally.

The answer, which could apply to virtually every post in this thread is...

It depends...

I mean, Marmite and Scotch egg?????
Gonna take a couple of beers before I try that.

&#63025;&#63020;&#62995;

(But I think one day I probably will...Only live once and all that. It only takes a second to croak. Every choke is a good choke etc.)
		
Click to expand...

Marmites for life.
Not just toast..  :clap:


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			And this years prize for stunning unintentional irony goes to......
:lol:
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't going to say that but, yes, it did seem like a hoisted and petard moment.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			No. You asked the question generally.

The answer, which could apply to virtually every post in this thread is...

It depends...

I mean, Marmite and Scotch egg?????
Gonna take a couple of beers before I try that.

&#128561;&#128556;&#128531;

(But I think one day I probably will...Only live once and all that. It only takes a second to croak. Every choke is a good choke etc.)
		
Click to expand...

No!  I never.   I asked the question to  'adam6177'  and quoted him in the post.   Ok you decided it was meant for you and complicated matters with a bit of sarcasm.  I think you know that 'Marmite' is often used as a metaphor to exemplify how different people like/dislike  the same thing.

Oh! I give up on that one.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I wasn't going to say that but, yes, it did seem like a hoisted and petard moment.
		
Click to expand...


Genuine question:   How did that saying come about, a Petard seems to be a small bomb, strange how you can be 'hoisted' by your own bomb?


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question:   How did that saying come about, a Petard seems to be a small bomb, strange how you can be 'hoisted' by your own bomb?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry SR. Before my time, just.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question:   How did that saying come about, a Petard seems to be a small bomb, strange how you can be 'hoisted' by your own bomb?
		
Click to expand...

They were very volatile and dificult to handle, often went off prematurely, I guess the hoisted is from being lifted in the air (blown up) if it did go off too soon.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

I believe it was Shakespeare SR. Hamlet ??


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No!  I never.   I asked the question to  'adam6177'  and quoted him in the post.   Ok you decided it was meant for you and complicated matters with a bit of sarcasm.  I think you know that 'Marmite' is often used as a metaphor to exemplify how different people like/dislike  the same thing.

Oh! I give up on that one.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be offended - there was definitely no sarcasm involved from my end. It was just a light-hearted bit  of friendly banter using said yeast based product as a way of showing that even something considered black and white can have several shades of grey.

Be cool. &#9996;


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Jul 30, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			I believe it was Shakespeare SR. Hamlet ??
		
Click to expand...

I've just learned something.

Shame on you sire for adding a smidge of intelligence to my blessed ignorance.

&#128539;&#128530;


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I've just learned something.

Shame on you sire for adding a smidge of intelligence to my blessed ignorance.

&#63003;&#62994;
		
Click to expand...

Thy cannot claim credit my leige.
Tis google be the true sage.
" No legacy is so rich as honesty ".
:lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2016)

BesCumber said:



			Thy cannot claim credit my leige.
Tis google be the true sage.
" No legacy is so rich as honesty ".
:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Is this a jar which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible 
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but 
a jar of Marmite.


----------



## BesCumber (Jul 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Is this a jar which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible 
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but 
a jar of Marmite.



Click to expand...

:clap::clap:

Thats the best.

Brilliant.
Made me laugh anyway SR.  Thanks. :thup: :rofl:


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question:   How did that saying come about, a Petard seems to be a small bomb, strange how you can be 'hoisted' by your own bomb?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/125357/why-hoist-in-hoist-with-ones-own-petard


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 31, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/125357/why-hoist-in-hoist-with-ones-own-petard

Click to expand...

Thank You.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank You.
		
Click to expand...

You're welcome. :thup:


----------



## vkurup (Aug 1, 2016)

Found something that has provided a positive spin on the news.... Fire everyone at the BBC,  hire everyone from CG...   This should warm the cockles of the Brexiter's heart..


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 1, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Found something that has provided a positive spin on the news.... Fire everyone at the BBC,  hire everyone from CG...   This should warm the cockles of the Brexiter's heart..

View attachment 20344

Click to expand...

About time you gave up on this as it makes you look a bit juvenile now.


----------



## vkurup (Aug 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			About time you gave up on this as it makes you look a bit juvenile now.
		
Click to expand...

just shared a bit of some positive news... dammed if you do, dammed if you dont...


----------



## Slime (Aug 1, 2016)

vkurup said:



			just shared a bit of some positive news... dammed if you do, dammed if you dont...
		
Click to expand...

Ah, but the problem is this;
When you bring us negative news, you're being deadly serious, but, when you bring us positive news you're taking the piss and laughing your own tits off!
It, eventually, gets fairly boring and tedious.

Just saying .................


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 1, 2016)

Talking of taking the proverbial. Never seen it before but just come up on my phone in the middle of this thread is an advert suggesting we all migrate to Germany. (Company's called Y Axis BTW) Either a brilliant gag or maybe God's changed sides since the war?
&#128580;&#128561;


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 17, 2016)

Just picked this up as been distracted over last couple of weeks -  Project Fear? Well it's not as if we weren't warned.  Wonder what the 61% of the Sunderland area who voted to leave think of this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just picked this up as been distracted over last couple of weeks -  Project Fear? Well it's not as if we weren't warned.  Wonder what the 61% of the Sunderland area who voted to leave think of this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707

Click to expand...

Music to your ears.   Bet you really got off on that :thup:


----------



## vkurup (Aug 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just picked this up as been distracted over last couple of weeks -  Project Fear? Well it's not as if we weren't warned.  Wonder what the 61% of the Sunderland area who voted to leave think of this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707

Click to expand...

how dare you talk about economic data while on national duty... off your soap box..
Did you not see the Retail bounce in July?  I was in Scandinavia and every business dinner conversation turned into a bit of Brexit kicking, so i had to stand up and say all of them are rubbish and that democracy won..


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2016)

vkurup said:



			how dare you talk about economic data while on national duty... off your soap box..
Did you not see the Retail bounce in July?  I was in Scandinavia and *every business dinner conversation turned into a bit of Brexit kicking*, so i had to stand up and say all of them are rubbish and that democracy won..
		
Click to expand...

Bet they got a bit bored with you going on about it


----------



## vkurup (Aug 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Bet they got a bit bored with you going on about it 

Click to expand...

i think you missed the gist of the memo... I was the one defeneding Brexit while the locals took the mick..


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2016)

Employment now at best ever record levels in Scotland thanks to Nigel and Boris.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Employment now at best ever record levels in Scotland thanks to Nigel and Boris.
		
Click to expand...

Or you could say that unemployment at lowest levels for 11 years in the UK.  No thanks to Nicola though.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just picked this up as been distracted over last couple of weeks -  Project Fear? Well it's not as if we weren't warned.  Wonder what the 61% of the Sunderland area who voted to leave think of this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707

Click to expand...

This was something I stated was a potentially huge loss thousands of posts ago - and I was very surprised when I saw the massive Sunderland Brexit result (over 70%?) when it appeared live (one of the very early results - about 2nd from memory!)!

The actual article has nothing actually new in it though! It's merely speculation of a (potential) upcoming funding point! To my mind, this is not an article that should be allowed its own 'billing' nationally on the BBC site - though fine to be either mentioned as part of an overall review of 'what's happened since Brexit/consequences going forward' or as a 'local to Sunderland' item!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Music to your ears.   Bet you really got off on that :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Not at all.


----------



## MarkE (Aug 19, 2016)

The markets above referendum levels, unemployment continues to fall, sales of goods up 5.9% with corresponding month last year, prices steady remaining well below BOE target of 2%, credit rating agency Moody's predict the economy 'to slow down modestly but will not enter recession'. All good news that belies Osbourne and his chums dire warnings of an economic apocalypse.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Aug 19, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The markets above referendum levels, unemployment continues to fall, sales of goods up 5.9% with corresponding month last year, prices steady remaining well below BOE target of 2%, credit rating agency Moody's predict the economy 'to slow down modestly but will not enter recession'. All good news that belies Osbourne and his chums dire warnings of an economic apocalypse.
		
Click to expand...

Ahh, but we are still in the EU at the mo......


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Ahh, but we are still in the EU at the mo......
		
Click to expand...

...and what period(s) do these statistics relate to?

I don't want our economy to fail as a result of Brexit - of course I don't - but I am worried that some of the forecasts pre-referendum might actually come to pass - and for what long term gain I just still don't get.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Ahh, but we are still in the EU at the mo......
		
Click to expand...

Irrespective of being in the EU :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and what period(s) do these statistics relate to?

I don't want our economy to fail as a result of Brexit - of course I don't - but I am worried that some of the forecasts pre-referendum might actually come to pass - and for what long term gain I just still don't get.
		
Click to expand...

You don't want to get it, do you?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't want to get it, do you?
		
Click to expand...

I'd like someone to tell me what we're actually going to be getting with Brexit - then I might get it.  Now nearly two months since the referendum and we're no wiser about the objectives of the UK Government beyond: we are leaving the EU; no freedom of movement of EU citizens into the UK; UK access to the EU single market (tariff free or maybe access not required at all).  And we knew that two months ago and that altogether these they are almost certainly not achievable.  And as far as the benefits that leaving and that that lot would bring - who knows?  

I'm hoping this all works out as it is my children and grandchildren who need it to work - not me.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd like someone to tell me what we're actually going to be getting with Brexit - then I might get it.  Now nearly two months since the referendum and we're no wiser about the objectives of the UK Government beyond: we are leaving the EU; no freedom of movement of EU citizens into the UK; UK access to the EU single market (tariff free or maybe access not required at all).  And we knew that two months ago and that altogether these they are almost certainly not achievable.  And as far as the benefits that leaving and that that lot would bring - who knows?  

I'm hoping this all works out as it is my children and grandchildren who need it to work - not me.
		
Click to expand...

You are not stupid so you will be aware that Brexit means we will leave the EU.  The terms of that exit are subject to negotiation, even you cant honestly believe that you would be informed of the result before the negotiations are complete. 

I cant see the Government getting Parliamentary approval from it's own party unless Brexit excludes the Free Movement of People, that we will not contribute to the EU coffers even if that means we do not have full access to the Single Market.  We will need the freedom to trade freely with the rest of the world and make our own trade agreements.  

Be patient and accept that Remain lost the vote, some things may be tough and others may be beneficial.   You will, just like everyone else have to wait a few years to find out, but you already know that.


----------



## williamalex1 (Aug 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are not stupid so you will be aware that Brexit means we will leave the EU.  The terms of that exit are subject to negotiation, even you cant honestly believe that you would be informed of the result before the negotiations are complete. 

I cant see the Government getting Parliamentary approval from it's own party unless Brexit excludes the Free Movement of People, that we will not contribute to the EU coffers even if that means we do not have full access to the Single Market.  We will need the freedom to trade freely with the rest of the world and make our own trade agreements.  

Be patient and accept that Remain lost the vote, some things may be tough and others may be beneficial.   You will, just like everyone else have to wait a few years to find out, but you already know that.
		
Click to expand...

As Gloria sang , I (we) will survive.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd like someone to tell me what we're actually going to be getting with Brexit - then I might get it.  Now nearly two months since the referendum and we're no wiser about the objectives of the UK Government beyond: we are leaving the EU; no freedom of movement of EU citizens into the UK; UK access to the EU single market (tariff free or maybe access not required at all).  And we knew that two months ago and that altogether these they are almost certainly not achievable.  And as far as the benefits that leaving and that that lot would bring - who knows?  

I'm hoping this all works out as it is my children and grandchildren who need it to work - not me.
		
Click to expand...

If you're worried about the outcome for your children then why do you want immediate answers?
Firstly we all knew nothing would be happening now - the government has to have its hols so everything stops for tiffin.
You've still got your negative assumptions even tho' there has been no movement on that direction - for the foreseeable future we have freedom of movement. We have access to the free market. 
Before we joined the common market we had failing manufacturing, an underfunded NHS, an unbalanced education system favouring the rich and retirement at 65. The only difference now is that the retirement age has gone up.
None of that will change for your children either. The little people will still be screwed over by the rich and powerful.
The big picture won't change for most of us one way or the other.
In my daughter's circle of friends 1 young lady has moved to work abroad. All the rest work for big corporates same as my generation. Free movement won't affect many round here.
Wealth is relevant to the rest of the population. The Tory government created huge unemployment in parts of the country whilst we were in the Common Market because it suited their political aims. Leaving won't affect that one way or the other.
&#128526;


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2016)

As a _Remainer _I have to accept that we are leaving - I just wish I was more confident that leaving will bring any gains and not simply years of pain for many before getting back to where would have been anyway.  

And all in the name of 'control' when the amount of 'control' we will have in the end is I suspect not actually going to make a lot of difference to those who have suffered in the transition.  But hey ho.  The majority of those who voted followed the Pied Piper that was BoJo Farage  - and we know what happened to the children of Hamelin and what happened to the Pied Piper.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As a _Remainer _I have to accept that we are leaving - I just wish I was more confident that leaving will bring any gains and not simply years of pain for many before getting back to where would have been anyway.  

And all in the name of 'control' when the amount of 'control' we will have in the end is I suspect not actually going to make a lot of difference to those who have suffered in the transition.  But hey ho.  The majority of those who voted followed the Pied Piper that was BoJo Farage  - and we know what happened to the children of Hamelin and what happened to the Pied Piper.
		
Click to expand...

You don't get any better, do you?  You make the mistake so many of the remainers make with their entitlement attitudes that we didn't understand what we were voting for and were taken in by politicians.   We voted to leave the EU because in general we don't like it and it's institutions.   Yes we want more control and we will probably get it even if we have to pay for it; although I doubt that it will be a high price.   As long as we don't sell out to Free Movement,, can make trade agreements with whoever we like and our courts are supreme then it will be exactly what most of us wanted.    Your analogy with the Pied Piper is exactly what the EU is about, you could not have given a better example, the nations of europe being taken away from their freedoms and national identities by a sinister piper who takes them all down a path to a place where they lose control of their lives.   Well done, great story and we know what happened to the children and piper of Bruxelles don't we :thup:


----------



## dewsweeper (Aug 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't get any better, do you?  You make the mistake so many of the remainers make with their entitlement attitudes that we didn't understand what we were voting for and were taken in by politicians.   We voted to leave the EU because in general we don't like it and it's institutions.   Yes we want more control and we will probably get it even if we have to pay for it; although I doubt that it will be a high price.   As long as we don't sell out to Free Movement,, can make trade agreements with whoever we like and our courts are supreme then it will be exactly what most of us wanted.    Your analogy with the Pied Piper is exactly what the EU is about, you could not have given a better example, the nations of europe being taken away from their freedoms and national identities by a sinister piper who takes them all down a path to a place where they lose control of their lives.   Well done, great story and we know what happened to the children and piper of Bruxelles don't we :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Well said, your turning around of The Pied Piper analogy is excellent.


----------



## MarkE (Aug 20, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Ahh, but we are still in the EU at the mo......
		
Click to expand...

I was just mentioning that the economic meltdown promised by the economists if we voted to leave has'nt materialized.


----------



## delc (Aug 20, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I was just mentioning that the economic meltdown promised by the economists if we voted to leave has'nt materialized.
		
Click to expand...

We haven't left the EU yet!  But the Pound Sterling is already severely devalued as a result of uncertainty about the future!


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2016)

delc said:



			We haven't left the EU yet!  But the Pound Sterling is already severely devalued as a result of uncertainty about the future!
		
Click to expand...

It's devalued but not due to Brexit as such but the wheelings and Dealings of speculators and I suspect also by the poor actions of the BOE. Devaluation has  pros and cons and will more than likely level out soon.  We were told the financial markets would take a massive shock and that has just not happened.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Aug 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As a _Remainer _I have to accept that we are leaving - I just wish I was more confident that leaving will bring any gains and not simply years of pain for many before getting back to where would have been anyway.  

And all in the name of 'control' when the amount of 'control' we will have in the end is I suspect not actually going to make a lot of difference to those who have suffered in the transition.  But hey ho.  The majority of those who voted followed the Pied Piper that was BoJo Farage  - and we know what happened to the children of Hamelin and what happened to the Pied Piper.
		
Click to expand...

That BoJo Farage, as you put it, could seduce so many people into voting for what is apparently so obviously a bad deal for the UK surely underlines what a bloody awful job "Call Me Dave" did of explaining to the supposedly stupid masses what the impact would be.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of finger pointing over this.  You might do well to consider an old Dire Straits lyric; "When you point you finger 'cause your plans fell through, there's three more fingers pointing back at you".


----------



## drdel (Aug 21, 2016)

^^^ I agree BiM: what seems to have escaped many who claim the UK is suffering is just how much more pain we would be landed with as the EU struggles. France and Germany still want to act as an elite 'core' set of inner members are concerned they are going to be stuck with the bill for the EU's lack of growth and the quantitative easing that is exposing weaknesses in the IMF's think and the major EU Bank's exposure. The old USSR state have never contributed a penny since joining, Greece is still a major issue.

Believe me, as the next couple of years will show, the pain of staying would be much higher than leaving.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			Well said, your turning around of The Pied Piper analogy is excellent.
		
Click to expand...

It was all bar the bit about Bruxelles - it was Hamelin in Germany.


----------



## williamalex1 (Aug 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It was all bar the bit about Bruxelles - it was Hamelin in Germany.
		
Click to expand...

A line from a Neil Diamond song springs to mind.:smirk:


----------



## vkurup (Aug 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The markets above referendum levels, unemployment continues to fall, sales of goods up 5.9% with corresponding month last year, prices steady remaining well below BOE target of 2%, credit rating agency Moody's predict the economy 'to slow down modestly but will not enter recession'. All good news that belies Osbourne and his chums dire warnings of an economic apocalypse.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget to add our great showing at the Olympics to that list.. Shows how well a targeted British raised money spent in Britian on British sportspeople can achieve fab results.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It was all bar the bit about Bruxelles - it was Hamelin in Germany.
		
Click to expand...

It was meant to be a play on that story using the Commissioners of the UK as the Piper and the EU Countries as the Children.  It would not have been very good if the Commissioners came from Hamelin


----------



## MarkE (Aug 21, 2016)

delc said:



			We haven't left the EU yet!  But the Pound Sterling is already severely devalued as a result of uncertainty about the future!
		
Click to expand...

We were told a *vote* to leave would be a disaster for the country. Well i'm still waiting for it to happen. Perhaps the economists, once again, got it completely wrong and brexit is not the great disaster after all. The Pound getting devalued is no great problem, it will find it's own level on the markets. Don't be so pessimistic, the future is as certain as at any other time. We are leaving the eu and will make a success of it.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The Pound getting devalued is no great problem, it will find it's own level on the markets.
		
Click to expand...

And has actually boosted the economy due to Brits holidaying in the UK rather than going abroad due to the increased costs of foreign holidays.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2016)

Tell that to my daughter who is now paying 15% more for imported goods essential to her business.


----------



## MarkE (Aug 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tell that to my daughter who is now paying 15% more for imported goods essential to her business.
		
Click to expand...

Swings and roundabouts. The weak pound is a boost for tourism and exporters. In any case, the fall in value is just a reaction to brexit and it will find it's true level once people stop panicking.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tell that to my daughter who is now paying 15% more for imported goods essential to her business.
		
Click to expand...

There's an argument to say that if we hadn't destroyed our manufacturing industries a couple of generations ago she may not have had to import such a huge proportion of the essential bits and bobs.

The socio-economic decisions made back then were influenced, but not led, by joining the Common Market. Some people benefited, many, many people lost out hugely - a lot more than your daughter, I'm afraid.

The country survived and prospered and changed the way it dealt with the rest of the world. That is, the people with money and influence prospered. The working class were downtrodden then, and they are pretty downtrodden now.

Now our country is going to do exactly the same thing again. Just hopefully without the race riots and our government deliberately destroying whole communities just to prove a point.

*plus Ã§a change, plus c'est la mÃªme chose.

*Me? I love a bit of European irony, me ...


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 22, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			A line from a Neil Diamond song springs to mind.:smirk:
		
Click to expand...

Did you ever read about a frog
Who dreamed of being a king
And then became one
Well except for the names and a few other changes

:lol:..
...
....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Swings and roundabouts. The weak pound is a boost for tourism and exporters. In any case, the fall in value is just a reaction to brexit and it will find it's true level once people start panicking.
		
Click to expand...

Old cynical me couldn't resist that wee change.:lol:


----------



## williamalex1 (Aug 22, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



Did you ever read about a frog
Who dreamed of being a king
And then became one
Well except for the names and a few other changes

:lol:..
...
....




Click to expand...

:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 22, 2016)

Two months on an Exit Plan is perhaps the least we could have expected - even just a top level plan.  But we have heard nothing.  I'm not asking for detail, just a set of activities and milestones that will deliver the Brexit objectives.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Two months on an Exit Plan is perhaps the least we could have expected - even just a top level plan.  But we have heard nothing.  I'm not asking for detail, just a set of activities and milestones that will deliver the Brexit objectives.
		
Click to expand...

Tut, tut. Now we've told you - Auntie Theresa doesn't like her holiday interrupted. I mean you can't expect her to worry about trivial stuff like the country when she's got her jollies in Switzerland to worry about. She'll be back on Wednesday or Thursday.

Then she can start making plans about getting everyone together when their hols are finished. There will obviously be some admin to catch up on and a few emails.

Then she can start chatting to the Brexit team and running a few ideas up the flagpole.

So you can expect a rough outline sometime around next Easter, I'd imagine.


----------



## MarkE (Aug 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Two months on an Exit Plan is perhaps the least we could have expected - even just a top level plan.  But we have heard nothing.  I'm not asking for detail, just a set of activities and milestones that will deliver the Brexit objectives.
		
Click to expand...

You don't think nothing is happening surely? Preparations are being made behind the scenes. Article 50 is being invoked in the new year at which time the government will have their strategy in place. There's no need to keep feeding the public every little titbit.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You don't think nothing is happening surely? Preparations are being made behind the scenes. Article 50 is being invoked in the new year at which time the government will have their strategy in place. There's no need to keep feeding the public every little titbit.
		
Click to expand...

But at the pace of an escargot!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...endum-result-europe-theresa-may-a7189851.html


----------



## MarkE (Aug 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			But at the pace of an escargot!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...endum-result-europe-theresa-may-a7189851.html

Click to expand...

That's not news is it? We know it will take at least 2 years to untangle ourselves from the eu mess. The Independent continually runs negative stories on brexit, always looking on the downside of any news while conveniently ignoring the positives.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

MarkE said:



			That's not news is it? We know it will take at least 2 years to untangle ourselves from the eu mess. The Independent continually runs negative stories on brexit, always looking on the downside of any news while conveniently ignoring the positives.
		
Click to expand...

Does that alter any facts though? Is the article correct - negative story or not?! I suspect that there ARE sources that have provided those estimates. And the German and French elections could well mean that different folk are involved - not so much from Germany imo.

I'm pretty certain that it'll take a lot longer than 2 years to 'untangle ourselves from the eu' mess or no mess! The 2 years was/is merely a, fairly arbitrary, value set to limit Article 50 negotiations - once it is triggered!

Have there been any 'positives' wrt Brexit yet - actual result excluded? 

I trust you believe this article is negative! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ndum-effect-uk-tourism-spending-a7204811.html


----------



## IanM (Aug 23, 2016)

So much nonsense from all sides here...

Simply.... recent weeks saw the currency and equity indices react as they do for any change in conditions or uncertainty.  After a few weeks this corrects, unless something bad actually happens.    Hence, my shares are back ABOVE January levels.

The Out camp are saying, "see everything's wonderful!"  The BBC...um, the Remain Lobby are saying the opposite.

The Civil Service are certainly getting the Leave resources ready and I am aware of some projects which are purely EU Directive driven, being canned. 

BUT - the PM hasn't invoked Art 50 yet... now has really happened.

Interesting to see how the Federalist Noises inside the commission are strengthening... giving up pretending perhaps?

Long term economic prospects for Eurozone are bad, from where I am sitting.  Major "contributor" country voting Out... Central Banks in 4 States in really bad shape.  Not looking good... no mention of this on the BBC though


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 23, 2016)

Theresa does need to be here for every decision. David Davies is running the Brexit dept. They will have a series of aims and then they will have set the civil service off to collate all of the information together relating to what we need to do to separate ourselves, what is currently entangled. That is the work currently being done. 

I don't expect any information from the govt about what it plans to do. Everything is up for negotiation and if you release too much info now, into the public domain, then it becomes a testosterone affair. Better to sort these things out in private where calm decisions are made rather than playing to the galleries.


----------



## MarkE (Aug 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Does that alter any facts though? Is the article correct - negative story or not?! I suspect that there ARE sources that have provided those estimates. And the German and French elections could well mean that different folk are involved - not so much from Germany imo.

I'm pretty certain that it'll take a lot longer than 2 years to 'untangle ourselves from the eu' mess or no mess! The 2 years was/is merely a, fairly arbitrary, value set to limit Article 50 negotiations - once it is triggered!

Have there been any 'positives' wrt Brexit yet - actual result excluded? 

I trust you believe this article is negative! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ndum-effect-uk-tourism-spending-a7204811.html

Click to expand...

As I said, there are positives to the pounds devaluation, increased income from tourism being one.   As for positives on brexit, not really as yet, unless you count the fact the UK economy has'nt imploded. I was always a brexit man and expected and accepted there would be a certain amount of upheaval, but apart from a couple of weeks after the result everything is settling down much better than I expected. People are coming to terms with the result and making it work.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Does that alter any facts though? Is the article correct - negative story or not?! I suspect that there ARE sources that have provided those estimates. And the German and French elections could well mean that different folk are involved - not so much from Germany imo.

I'm pretty certain that it'll take a lot longer than 2 years to 'untangle ourselves from the eu' mess or no mess! The 2 years was/is merely a, fairly arbitrary, value set to limit Article 50 negotiations - once it is triggered!

Have there been any 'positives' wrt Brexit yet - actual result excluded? 

I trust you believe this article is negative! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ndum-effect-uk-tourism-spending-a7204811.html

Click to expand...

The two year period is not arbitrary, its the maximum allowed unless all 27 members agree to an extension.

I think we should do what John Redwood suggests and just invoke article 50 then say we have left and are now a free trade zone, either trade with us tariff free or set tariffs yourself that we will have to reciprocate.  Unlike other  countries we already have all the trading standards and regulations in place.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The two year period is not arbitrary, its the maximum allowed unless all 27 members agree to an extension.

I think we should do what John Redwood suggests and just invoke article 50 then say we have left and are now a free trade zone, either trade with us tariff free or set tariffs yourself that we will have to reciprocate.  Unlike other  countries we already have all the trading standards and regulations in place.
		
Click to expand...

John Redwood........:lol: ....how long before, Neil Hamilton suggests.......
We have fallen a long long way.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			John Redwood........:lol: ....how long before, Neil Hamilton suggests.......
We have fallen a long long way.
		
Click to expand...

Redwood has some very good ideas, unlike you and your Jimmy Crankey cult.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The two year period is not arbitrary, its the maximum allowed unless all 27 members agree to an extension.
...
		
Click to expand...

Heavens above! Have you considered remedial reading lessons?

Does the word 'limit' (as in 'set to limit Article 50 negotiations') not suggest anything to you? 

And you certainly don't need to tell me what the content of Article 50 states!

Btw. You are wrong in the above statement anyway - but I'll let you figure out how!


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Heavens above! Have you considered remedial reading lessons?

Does the word 'limit' (as in 'set to limit Article 50 negotiations') not suggest anything to you? 

And you certainly don't need to tell me what the content of Article 50 states!

Btw. You are wrong in the above statement anyway - but I'll let you figure out how! 

Click to expand...

You really are an oddball of the first order matey.  Did I say something you didn't like once that triggered your strange habit following me around the site trying to discredit everything I post.  Never mind it is probably curable given time and a full frontal lobotomy, although I do suspect you have already had one.

You said that you were pretty certain it will take more than two years to extract ourselves from the EU mess or no mess.  I was merely educating you in the fact it cannot be extended from two years without the agreement of all 27 EU countries.

I know you don't like being told anything as it offends your superiority complex.   Don't worry about it though 'old boy' as I suggested your condition is curable in some cases.


----------



## williamalex1 (Aug 23, 2016)

It sounds like infamy to me, but carry on , lol.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are an oddball of the first order matey.  Did I say something you didn't like once that triggered your strange habit following me around the site trying to discredit everything I post.  Never mind it is probably curable given time and a full frontal lobotomy, although I do suspect you have already had one.

You said that you were pretty certain it will take more than two years to extract ourselves from the EU mess or no mess.  I was merely educating you in the fact it cannot be extended from two years without the agreement of all 27 EU countries.

I know you don't like being told anything as it offends your superiority complex.   Don't worry about it though 'old boy' as I suggested your condition is curable in some cases.   

Click to expand...

Try looking in the mirror! 

It's YOU that latched onto MY post (a reply to MarkE) that started THIS 'conversation'!


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Try looking in the mirror! 

It's YOU that latched onto MY post (a reply to MarkE) that started THIS 'conversation'! 

Click to expand...

Oh Dear


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2016)

Despite me thinking that the UK leaving the EU is insane; despite my suspicion that some who voted to leave voted that way for reasons nothing to do with the EU; despite the downright lies put about by the Brexit campaign that may have influenced some to vote to Leave; despite the fact that nobody voting to Leave actually knew quite what they were voting for and the impact that leaving will have on them (and still don't) other than in the broadest terms,  and despite the fact that the referendum was only advisory - despite all that I don't think a further referendum is appropriate or in any way desirable.  

A second referendum would cause electoral chaos and would be seen by the huge majority as undemocratic.  I'm happy to accept that Brexit should go ahead, in fact *must* go ahead; on the basis of agreements to be reached in the coming 2-3 yrs.  

If come the next GE, a year or two after us leaving, the economy is doing just dandy - then I will celebrate and be relieved.  At that point Labour can maybe be getting their act together to challenge the Tories on the issues that really affect us and the poorer of society - because given how things are we are currently looking at another 20yrs of Tory government.  If things aren't going so well at the next GE then the electorate will judge the Tories in consideration of that.  It won't be good - but it seems to me to Labour's only route to government in the next ten years.  But do I want Brexit to fail?  Of course not - because under a Tory government the cost of failure will be inevitably fall on the narrow shoulders of the poorer.

Let's just get on with it and I'll keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Does that alter any facts though? Is the article correct - negative story or not?! I suspect that there ARE sources that have provided those estimates. And the German and French elections could well mean that different folk are involved - not so much from Germany imo.
		
Click to expand...

The current governments in  France and Germany may even have asked for us to delay doing anything official and stirring up the large exit vote in those countries which may not have been to their advantage and changed the outcome of their elections.  Just a thought.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2016)

Glad to see that the PM is going to get the cabinet into a brainstorming session to work out what Brexit actually is - now that she realises that saying _Brexit means Brexit _is meaningless unless Brexit is defined.  And so dear PM remember the key principles of Brainstorming sessions. You need a facilitator - and it can't be you as the key stakeholder - it must be someone who understands the complexities of government and can manage an unruly and argumentative group - and so that must be the Foreign Secretary - he of huge brain and organisational skills.  And remember no idea is dismissed out of hand as ridiculous - and that includes Brexit itself - they all get a Post-It on the wall and the opportunity to be discussed.

I look forward to seeing the outcome; our objectives for Brexit; and learn who is going to construct the roadmap to the door and how we come back through it once it has been shut behind us, if we in fact go through the door.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Glad to see that the PM is going to get the cabinet into a brainstorming session to work out what Brexit actually is - now that she realises that saying _Brexit means Brexit _is meaningless unless Brexit is defined.  And so dear PM remember the key principles of Brainstorming sessions. You need a facilitator - and it can't be you as the key stakeholder - it must be someone who understands the complexities of government and can manage an unruly and argumentative group - and so that must be the Foreign Secretary - he of huge brain and organisational skills.  And remember no idea is dismissed out of hand as ridiculous - and that includes Brexit itself - they all get a Post-It on the wall and the opportunity to be discussed.

I look forward to seeing the outcome; our objectives for Brexit; and learn who is going to construct the roadmap to the door and how we come back through it once it has been shut behind us, if we in fact go through the door.
		
Click to expand...

I would imagine they will manage to work out how to run the meeting already.  I dont see why we will need to come back through the door and why it needs to be slammed behind us.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2016)

I am optimistic on what our exit from the EU will produce for us.  All the initial bluster from some of the EU commissars were ill thought through IMO. A policy of trying to punish a leaving state is a poor one if it gives the picture that remaining states should decide to stay only because they may be punished if they leave.

I would take a similar stance on negotiations to the likes of Jacob Ress-Mogg  that we should not spend time discussing the un-negotialable with things like Free Movement and the Single Market, if the EU demands these as red lines then we should say that is not acceptable to us and will revert to WTO rules.   The sooner we complete the discussions the sooner we can start making our way with the rest of the world and discard the straight jacket.  If they want to keep their trade advantage with us then they need to make concessions.

On another Brexit point, I read an interesting article by Mervyn King who said that the UK economy has been moving in the wrong direction for too long and has been too reliant on consumer spending which is bound to implode at some time.  The lower level of the Pound is something has been needed for some time so that we can work to create more of an exporting economy that promotes manufacturing.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...
On another Brexit point, I read an interesting article by Mervyn King who said that the UK economy has been moving in the wrong direction for too long and has been too reliant on consumer spending which is bound to implode at some time.  The lower level of the Pound is something has been needed for some time so that we can work to *create more of an exporting economy that promotes manufacturing*.
		
Click to expand...

The challenge for that is twofold - firstly there's generally a considerable start-up/investment cost, which has inherent risk, something that is exaggerated by all the other risks associated with Brexit! Secondly, UK's traditionally poor, confrontational approach to industrial relations need to change!


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			The challenge for that is twofold - firstly there's generally a considerable start-up/investment cost, which has inherent risk, something that is exaggerated by all the other risks associated with Brexit! Secondly, UK's traditionally poor, confrontational approach to industrial relations need to change!
		
Click to expand...

Typical downbeat negatives to all things British.  I guess Mr Kings opinion is questionable against yours.

The lower pound creates an impetus for export that supports manufacturers that are not over reliant on imported materials.  If the consumer bubble is liable to burst then government will need to do all it can to promote and support manufacturing and export.  The alternative would be very grim and nothing to do with Brexit.  

I dont know if you have any experience with British Industrial relations beyond reading the Guardian but it's not all the same as it was in the 1980's and there are a lot of highly trained graduate HR people around these days.  My experience is that on the whole it's not bad at all and I am quite well qualified in that opinion.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Glad to see that the PM is going to get the cabinet into a brainstorming session to work out what Brexit actually is - now that she realises that saying _Brexit means Brexit _is meaningless unless Brexit is defined.  And so dear PM remember the key principles of Brainstorming sessions. You need a facilitator - and it can't be you as the key stakeholder - it must be someone who understands the complexities of government and can manage an unruly and argumentative group - and so that must be the Foreign Secretary - he of huge brain and organisational skills.  And remember no idea is dismissed out of hand as ridiculous - and that includes Brexit itself - they all get a Post-It on the wall and the opportunity to be discussed.

I look forward to seeing the outcome; our objectives for Brexit; and learn who is going to construct the roadmap to the door and how we come back through it once it has been shut behind us, if we in fact go through the door.
		
Click to expand...

I think there's some direction regarding the brainstorming sessions in this exclusive news report

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...with-idea-of-staying-in-europe-20160831113109


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

And as the phrase goes, no ..... sherlock  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37238641


----------



## IanM (Sep 1, 2016)

I guess the BBC are still taking EU Cash and have to keep agitating for a second referendum.  They are becoming embarrassing now


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Typical downbeat negatives to all things British.  I guess Mr Kings opinion is questionable against yours.

The lower pound creates an impetus for export that supports manufacturers that are not over reliant on imported materials.  If the consumer bubble is liable to burst then government will need to do all it can to promote and support manufacturing and export.  The alternative would be very grim and nothing to do with Brexit.  

I dont know if you have any experience with British Industrial relations beyond reading the Guardian but it's not all the same as it was in the 1980's and there are a lot of highly trained graduate HR people around these days.  My experience is that on the whole it's not bad at all and I am quite well qualified in that opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Well Mr King is an expert and the Brexiteers told us that we are fed up with experts and hence should dismiss what they say in preference for layman gut feeling.  So Foxholder being a 'layman' I go with Foxholder's view.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2016)

IanM said:



			I guess the BBC are still taking EU Cash and have to keep agitating for a second referendum.  They are becoming embarrassing now
		
Click to expand...

Really?  Actual evidence of the BBC agitating for a second referendum please.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2016)

IanM said:



			I guess the BBC are still taking EU Cash and have to keep agitating for a second referendum.  They are becoming embarrassing now
		
Click to expand...

Steady on old boy, where I live they have been embarrassing for quite a while.

Hacker. there was an interesting comparison between the two referendums from the commission.
They said that one was very enlightening and made a lasting political change and that the EU one which basically did the exact opposite. :lol:


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well Mr King is an expert and the Brexiteers told us that we are fed up with experts and hence should dismiss what they say in preference for layman gut feeling.  So Foxholder being a 'layman' I go with Foxholder's view.
		
Click to expand...

Go with Foxholer or Uncle Tom Cobley 'n' all if you like.   You have a funny attitude of pigeon holeing people with labels like 'Brexiteers' and suggesting they all have the exactly the same opinion, thats exactly the attitude of the political elite and why the referendum went the way it did.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Typical downbeat negatives to all things British.  I guess Mr Kings opinion is questionable against yours.
		
Click to expand...

Er....Where exactly did I specify I had a different opinion to *Lord* King? Surely (especially given the 'interesting' combination) you should be able to get his title right! 

Nothing 'downbeat/negative' about it either - simply stating the main challenges for new starts. Existing exporting manufacturers are likely to benefit immediately as the necessary infrastructure is almost certainly in place. In fact, it's *essential* that this happens, otherwise the Balance of Payments deficit is likely to widen significantly. It may be advantageous, in duty/trade negotiations, to argue that we import more from the EU than we export, but that also means we are spending more than we are earning from trade too - in fact we have been doing so at a progressively increasing since 1998!

The consumer bubble *IS* liable to burst - at some stage, though the actual trigger is not necessarily predictable. That's what always happens with 'bubbles', though the effect is not always disastrous! I believe Brexit *WILL* be a contributory factor (simply because of its 'visibility'), though not necessarily the major one. To say, with certainty, that Brexit will not be a factor, in something that is somewhat speculative in the first place, is simply daft!

Your pigeon-holing of my newspaper reading is seriously awry btw!

Edit: @SiLH. You were probably influenced by SR. See my reference to Lord King's title! In his case (he's still actively analysing the economy), and that of Mark Carney, I'm more than happy to go with their judgement! While they are not infallible, and cannot predict every event that can affect the economy, they are independent and have the best available figures possible to go by! Their track record for accuracy and effectiveness has been pretty good, though there could well be a crunch point approaching in the next few months - as simply reducing interest rates becomes 'a bit awkward'!



SocketRocket said:



			... You have a funny attitude of pigeon holeing people with labels like 'Brexiteers' and suggesting they all have the exactly the same opinion, thats exactly the attitude of the political elite and why the referendum went the way it did.
		
Click to expand...



Yeah, right! and you don't pigeon-hole folk at all, do you!


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2016)

Good news? Or perhaps not!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37242804

Not sure that a rise of 1%, after such a fall, is really massive news though!

Interesting to see the headlines of references to 2 articles below 1 day apart below that report too

1. UK Manufacturing suffers lack of investment.....
2. UK Industrial Output grows strongly

Classic interpretation of the economy by different groups!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

IanM said:



			I guess the BBC are still taking EU Cash and have to keep agitating for a second referendum.  They are becoming embarrassing now
		
Click to expand...

If you bothered to read it they are reporting on an electoral reform society report that basically said the whole quality of debate was awful on both sides of the argument.  To quote from said article

The Electoral Reform Society attacked both sides of the referendum campaign, saying people felt "ill-informed" by the "dire" debate.

It was not saying anything about having a second referendum, or even saying one side was worse than another.  In fact I'd argue you'd struggle to find a more neutral approach to reporting of Brexit in media outlets, certainly in the print media.  Again from both sides from The Guardian to The Daily Mail, they all were pushing a specific agenda.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Steady on old boy, where I live they have been embarrassing for quite a while.

Hacker. there was an interesting comparison between the two referendums from the commission.
*They said that one was very enlightening and made a lasting political change and that the EU one which basically did the exact opposite*. :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Don't think you could argue with that.  Not being Scottish I didn't have a huge amount of exposure to the run up and aftermath but from what I read it did engage people in a mostly good way and (mostly) dealt with facts and informed political discourse. Unfortunately in Brexit, as the report suggests, the level of debate was shocking. And now it seems Trump has cottoned on to this and is trying to copy that in his campaign.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2016)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/09/welsh-ukip-surge-has-labour-lost-valleys

Goodness me, the Welsh Labour voters are by passing the Tories and going hard core UKIP.
Whoever would have thunked that a few years ago.

I am cancelling my LLandudno holiday now.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er....Where exactly did I specify I had a different opinion to *Lord* King? Surely (especially given the 'interesting' combination) you should be able to get his title right! 

Nothing 'downbeat/negative' about it either - simply stating the main challenges for new starts. Existing exporting manufacturers are likely to benefit immediately as the necessary infrastructure is almost certainly in place. In fact, it's *essential* that this happens, otherwise the Balance of Payments deficit is likely to widen significantly. It may be advantageous, in duty/trade negotiations, to argue that we import more from the EU than we export, but that also means we are spending more than we are earning from trade too - in fact we have been doing so at a progressively increasing since 1998!

The consumer bubble *IS* liable to burst - at some stage, though the actual trigger is not necessarily predictable. That's what always happens with 'bubbles', though the effect is not always disastrous! I believe Brexit *WILL* be a contributory factor (simply because of its 'visibility'), though not necessarily the major one. To say, with certainty, that Brexit will not be a factor, in something that is somewhat speculative in the first place, is simply daft!

Your pigeon-holing of my newspaper reading is seriously awry btw!

Edit: @SiLH. You were probably influenced by SR. See my reference to Lord King's title! In his case (he's still actively analysing the economy), and that of Mark Carney, I'm more than happy to go with their judgement! While they are not infallible, and cannot predict every event that can affect the economy, they are independent and have the best available figures possible to go by! Their track record for accuracy and effectiveness has been pretty good, though there could well be a crunch point approaching in the next few months - as simply reducing interest rates becomes 'a bit awkward'!





Yeah, right! and you don't pigeon-hole folk at all, do you!  

Click to expand...

You really are an oddball mate.  You use nit picking balderdash to attack my posts due to your fixation with me, there must be some deep seated insecurity behind it but hey ho! whatever lights your bonfire.

Whether I refer to him as Mr King, Mrs King, Lord King or King of the Teds is nothing to do with the subject matter of this discussion, well not to me anyway but I guess you will cling to any trivial detail to use as a blunt instrument.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Good news? Or perhaps not!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37242804

Not sure that a rise of 1%, after such a fall, is really massive news though!

Interesting to see the headlines of references to 2 articles below 1 day apart below that report too

1. UK Manufacturing suffers lack of investment.....
2. UK Industrial Output grows strongly

Classic interpretation of the economy by different groups!
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's good news and flying in the face of Project Fear.   It also shows that Carney and his Glum Factory were too hasty with their latest Easing and Interest Rate drop.


----------



## harpo_72 (Sep 1, 2016)

37% voted 52% of which wanted to leave ... Makes 19.2% of the population, that's a persuasive majority, wouldn't get a union on strike though.

Just saying.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			37% voted 52% of which wanted to leave ... Makes 19.2% of the population, that's a persuasive majority, wouldn't get a union on strike though.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

Rather more than the 17.8% that elected to stay though.  

Any chance you could direct your anger those who couldn't be bothered to vote and are now whinging about their future rather than those who exercised their right to vote?


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			37% voted 52% of which wanted to leave ... Makes 19.2% of the population, that's a persuasive majority, wouldn't get a union on strike though.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

But the whole population cant vote.  It was 72% of eligible voters which is huge.


----------



## harpo_72 (Sep 1, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Rather more than the 17.8% that elected to stay though.  

Any chance you could direct your anger those who couldn't be bothered to vote and are now whinging about their future rather than those who exercised their right to vote?
		
Click to expand...

Where is the anger?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Where is the anger?
		
Click to expand...

"Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated" 

"The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education."

Just a couple of yours from this thread, but obviously no anger or resentment thereâ€¦â€¦..


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Where is the anger?
		
Click to expand...

Yoda says '* â€œFear is the path to the dark sideâ€¦fear leads to angerâ€¦anger leads to hateâ€¦hate leads to suffering.'*


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course it's good news and flying in the face of Project Fear.   It also shows that Carney and his Glum Factory were too hasty with their latest Easing and Interest Rate drop.
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm - only two months and still in the EU,  the main changes that will result from Brexit haven't yet started - the government cannot seem to agree their Brexit objectives (critically for the economy and everything else - whether or not we want to have full access to the single market - or whether that is subsidiary to freedom of movement - as it is totally delusional and disingenuous to assert that we can have both) and so just a bit early say that all is well and fears were unfounded.  I hope all turns out well - whatever all is.

And I'd rather suggest that Carney knew what he was doing and why


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm - only two months and still in the EU,  the main changes that will result from Brexit haven't yet started - the government cannot seem to agree their Brexit objectives (critically for the economy and everything else - whether or not we want to have full access to the single market - or whether that is subsidiary to freedom of movement - as it is totally delusional and disingenuous to assert that we can have both) and so just a bit early say that all is well and fears were unfounded.  I hope all turns out well - whatever all is.

And I'd rather suggest that Carney knew what he was doing and why
		
Click to expand...

You keep repeating the same flawed argument.  You seem to think that we should already know the outcomes of the for-coming EU exit negotiations, how on earth can anyone know that?    Of course we would like full access to the single market without free movement but thats up to what the EU will offer.   If you read my earlier post I explained my personal preference for us to go in saying under no circumstances will we accept free movement and if they wish to apply import tariffs then we will revert to WTO rules.   It would then be up to the EU to decide how much harm they wish to apply to both economies, with them probably suffering the most.   We could then make a quick exit which will allow us to get on with the work in hand of resuming trade with the rest of the world.

I dont believe anyone is saying 'all is well' only being pleased when there is a bit of good news and happy that the predictions of a recession, large unemployment, plummeting house prices and being Â£4,300 worse off per household were untrue.

Regarding Carney; please explain what he has done is the right thing.   There was no need to lower interest rates further and the money he is printing is doing nothing other than pushing gilts and corporate bond yields down which is bad news for pension funds.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You keep repeating the same flawed argument.  You seem to think that we should already know the outcomes of the for-coming EU exit negotiations, how on earth can anyone know that?    Of course we would like full access to the single market without free movement but thats up to what the EU will offer.   If you read my earlier post I explained my personal preference for us to go in saying under no circumstances will we accept free movement and if they wish to apply import tariffs then we will revert to WTO rules.   It would then be up to the EU to decide how much harm they wish to apply to both economies, with them probably suffering the most.   We could then make a quick exit which will allow us to get on with the work in hand of resuming trade with the rest of the world.

I dont believe anyone is saying 'all is well' only being pleased when there is a bit of good news and happy that the predictions of a recession, large unemployment, plummeting house prices and being Â£4,300 worse off per household were untrue.

Regarding Carney; please explain what he has done is the right thing.   There was no need to lower interest rates further and the money he is printing is doing nothing other than pushing gilts and corporate bond yields down which is bad news for pension funds.
		
Click to expand...

You may know what you want but you are not in government and the government doesn't seem to know.

I don't know that Carney has done the right thing - but I trust him rather than those saying he hasn't.

And as far as Â£4,300 worse off - time will tell.  But I certainly am at the moment as house prices in my area have dropped (and we are thinking of moving) and that is rare - if not almost unheard of - we'll see how they respond over the coming months.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I dont believe anyone is saying 'all is well' only being pleased when there is a bit of good news and happy that the predictions of a recession, large unemployment, plummeting house prices and being Â£4,300 worse off per household were untrue.
...
		
Click to expand...

As Brexit hasn't yet happened, nor even been initiated, those predictions could still happen! The 4300/household was a 'worst case' value btw!

It's up to Carney who, quite appropriately, didn't make any actual predictions, and, of course, the government, to put in place whatever measures are required to minimise the possibility of all those nasty things! As ever in an economy/market environment, any action taken to affect one area also produces an effect in other areas! The decreasing yields for CBs and Gilts was entirely predictable and, presumably, deemed a 'reasonable cost' for the benefits of additional availability of funds. Yields should return to 'normal' levels once the 'special situation' activity is no longer needed.


----------



## Trojan615 (Sep 2, 2016)

Better out than in .... So they say


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			As Brexit hasn't yet happened, nor even been initiated, those predictions could still happen! The 4300/household was a 'worst case' value btw!

It's up to Carney who, quite appropriately, didn't make any actual predictions, and, of course, the government, to put in place whatever measures are required to minimise the possibility of all those nasty things! As ever in an economy/market environment, any action taken to affect one area also produces an effect in other areas! The decreasing yields for CBs and Gilts was entirely predictable and, presumably, deemed a 'reasonable cost' for the benefits of additional availability of funds. Yields should return to 'normal' levels once the 'special situation' activity is no longer needed.
		
Click to expand...

What a surprise, now how did I know you would reply.  Try to resist, I bet you cant


----------



## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			As Brexit hasn't yet happened, nor even been initiated, those predictions could still happen! The 4300/household was a 'worst case' value btw!
		
Click to expand...

For which even the Treasury told Osbourne he was spinning the numbers too far.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What a surprise, now how did I know you would reply.  Try to resist, I bet you cant 

Click to expand...

But Brexit *hasn't *happened yet - and despite what you say ... courtesy of _Yes Minister_

_So does Brexit mean keeping the City of London involved in some or all of European banking, financial and regulatory activity, or trade tariffs? Does it mean curtailing the movement rights of UK nationals as well as EU citizens? Does Brexit perhaps include revising our own governance as EU law recedes from our sceptred isle? Does Brexit mean the legislation of new health and safety regulations, employment and all other laws where we have lost competence to Brussels, including the drafting of 30 or 40 new bills for each Queenâ€™s speech for a decade or two?_


----------



## harpo_72 (Sep 2, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



"Let's put it bluntly those who voted leave were over the hill, and uneducated" 

"The stats say Leave won, the stats say that the majority were X age group, and left school without having further education."

Just a couple of yours from this thread, but obviously no anger or resentment thereâ€¦â€¦.. 




Click to expand...

That's not anger that's a bank balance statement...


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But Brexit *hasn't *happened yet - and despite what you say ... courtesy of _Yes Minister_

_So does Brexit mean keeping the City of London involved in some or all of European banking, financial and regulatory activity, or trade tariffs? Does it mean curtailing the movement rights of UK nationals as well as EU citizens? Does Brexit perhaps include revising our own governance as EU law recedes from our sceptred isle? Does Brexit mean the legislation of new health and safety regulations, employment and all other laws where we have lost competence to Brussels, including the drafting of 30 or 40 new bills for each Queenâ€™s speech for a decade or two?_

Click to expand...

That's obviously part of the purpose of the brief for the 'Brexit' department!

There is no need to question that any more than to query what the purpose of any other government department is!



Hobbit said:



			For which even the Treasury told Osbourne he was spinning the numbers too far.
		
Click to expand...

Have you ever heard of a politician NOT using worst case scenario numbers to make their point?



SocketRocket said:



			What a surprise, now how did I know you would reply.  Try to resist, I bet you cant 

Click to expand...

This puerile (imo of course ) post *demands* a reply! 

:rofl:

See the first sentence of post 5229 (of this thread)!


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But Brexit *hasn't *happened yet - and despite what you say ... courtesy of _Yes Minister_

_So does Brexit mean keeping the City of London involved in some or all of European banking, financial and regulatory activity, or trade tariffs? Does it mean curtailing the movement rights of UK nationals as well as EU citizens? Does Brexit perhaps include revising our own governance as EU law recedes from our sceptred isle? Does Brexit mean the legislation of new health and safety regulations, employment and all other laws where we have lost competence to Brussels, including the drafting of 30 or 40 new bills for each Queenâ€™s speech for a decade or two?_

Click to expand...

I get it.  You are incapable of understanding the situation and the way you keep reiterating these rhetorical questions the more it becomes obvious that explaining the situation to you makes no impact, it, just seems to go in one ear and out the other.   All will be revealed to you in the fulness of time, if you want someone to reveal the future for you then maybe I could suggest Transcendental Meditation


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			This puerile (imo of course ) post *demands* a reply! 

See the first sentence of post 5229 (of this thread)!
		
Click to expand...

See! you cant resist me.  Not sure if it's in a 'stalking' way or maybe you have a subconscious fascination about me, maybe I represent a part of one of your childhood nightmares that creates an insecurity complex which can only be satisfied by trolling someone who you secretly admire, is it that dream where you go into the garden and find your teddy bear floating face down in the swimming pool?    I just had a thought    You dont fancy me , do you?
  :rofl:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 2, 2016)

I'm guessing this thread now is just post ping pong of posters throwing cheap digs at each as opposed to offering some insight towards what could possibly happen over the next 3 years because right now not one single person knows what will happen - the country will step into the unknown so maybe it's time for a step back and wait period


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing this thread now is just post ping pong of posters throwing cheap digs at each as opposed to offering some insight towards what could possibly happen over the next 3 years because right now not one single person knows what will happen - the country will step into the unknown so maybe it's time for a step back and wait period
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we need a forum referendum on it and depending on the outcome have another.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Sep 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing this thread now is just post ping pong of posters throwing cheap digs at each as opposed to offering some insight towards what could possibly happen over the next 3 years because right now not one single person knows what will happen - the country will step into the unknown so maybe it's time for a step back and wait period
		
Click to expand...

You after a Mod job Phil  

Yeah what he said, stop with the jibes and either say something constructive or don't say nuffin at all (With apologies to Bambi & Thumper)


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 2, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			That's not anger that's a bank balance statement...
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope you're not involved in finance then.....


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2016)

Very interesting, if not 'revealing' interview with Theresa May on the Andrew Marr show!

And confirming my total respect for Shami Chakrabiti's integrity, if not all (though certainly many/most of) her political views as well!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You after a Mod job Phil  

Click to expand...

In other news a fox has been put in charge of the hen house.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2016)

Well, this puts the kybosh on a points based system for EU immigration!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Well, this puts the kybosh on a points based system for EU immigration!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420

Click to expand...

..and a lot of Leave voters will not be happy or at least confused as I heard very many (inc the Boris and the Hannan) refer to a points system as being the answer for immigration - usually citing the Australian example (notwithstanding limitations pointed out by Brit-Ins and the actual facts about the level of immigration in Oz).  

Ah well.  Does that count as a Brexit promise broken?  We'll see what TheMay comes up with - though I'm not sure that it's the PMs job to dismiss options in this way - I thought there were three ministers for this and cabinet decision making.  

Anyway - it doesn't matter what she comes up with - those that have been blaming immigration for their ills will now ALWAYS blame immigration for their ills - because that particular genie is out of the bottle.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and a lot of Leave voters will not be happy or at least confused as I heard very many (inc the Boris and the Hannan) refer to a points system as being the answer for immigration - usually citing the Australian example (notwithstanding limitations pointed out by Brit-Ins and the actual facts about the level of immigration in Oz).  

Ah well.  Does that count as a Brexit promise broken?  We'll see what TheMay comes up with - though I'm not sure that it's the PMs job to dismiss options in this way - I thought there were three ministers for this and cabinet decision making.  

Anyway - it doesn't matter what she comes up with - those that have been blaming immigration for their ills will now ALWAYS blame immigration for their ills - because that particular genie is out of the bottle.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe many Brexit voters actually specifically voted for this particular method - merely for Brexit itself! That was, after all, the only question on the ballot paper! Obviously, it was the *preferred* method by some, including at least one on this site! 

So no broken promise - it was only a proposal for how immigration from EU countries *could* be controlled.


----------



## MarkE (Sep 5, 2016)

May stated it was for the UK government to decide who we let in our country. Been a long time since a PM has been  able to say that. This is what brexit voters voted for, our government deciding matters for our country.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2016)

MarkE said:



			May stated it was for the UK government to decide who we let in our country. Been a long time since a PM has been  able to say that. This is what brexit voters voted for, our government deciding matters for our country.
		
Click to expand...

A decision of course which could be something close to 'free movement' - but you are indeed correct that we will be able to have that control over decision making, which would be a good thing...


----------



## larmen (Sep 5, 2016)

I only saw the bus which promises Â£350,000,000 a week extra to the NHS. I never saw the bus that promised a stop of free movement, or a bus that promised a points system. That 'obviously' means that all brexit voters wanted to stay in the free market just wanted better NHS funding.

This obviously is as far from the truth as all brexit voters wanted a complete stop of free movement, but I am not the one that has to quantify it.

The ballot was in/out. In my opinion it was split right down the middle, but if we accept out than it is to the government to decide what out means, not to the few that loudly scream stop to immigration.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe many Brexit voters actually specifically voted for this particular method - merely for Brexit itself! That was, after all, the only question on the ballot paper! *Obviously, it was the preferred method by some, including at least one on this site! *

So no broken promise - it was only a proposal for how immigration from EU countries *could* be controlled.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear - listening to NigelF on LBC - he's most upset that May seems to be backsliding on the points system that he says that Leave _promised _as that provides the total control that Fox, BoJo, Gove et al promised Leavers


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - listening to NigelF on LBC - he's most upset that May seems to be backsliding on the points system that he says that Leave _promised _as that provides the total control that Fox, BoJo, Gove et al promised Leavers
		
Click to expand...

I still think that it will not properly happen.  There will not be a second referendum, but I believe any Brexit will be so watered down then it will end up pleasing no one. The hard core brexiters will regard it as a sell out and the remainers will (continue to) question what is the point of spending a huge amount of time and resources to do it.


----------



## jp5 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I still think that it will not properly happen.  There will not be a second referendum, but I believe any Brexit will be so watered down then it will end up pleasing no one. The hard core brexiters will regard it as a sell out and the remainers will (continue to) question what is the point of spending a huge amount of time and resources to do it.
		
Click to expand...

Think that's a fair assessment. The equivalent of a party winning a narrow majority and being constrained in their policy implementation (and led by someone from the opposition, bizarrely!).


----------



## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Well, this puts the kybosh on a points based system for EU immigration!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420

Click to expand...

I don't know whether the points based system is good or bad but there isn't anything in that statement that actually says what system would be used other than her saying that she doesn't believe it's the way to deal with immigration.


----------



## vkurup (Sep 6, 2016)

Ignoring the opportunity to say â€˜we told you soâ€™, the PBS system would be difficult to implement for EU nationals.  We currently have the PBS for non-EU nationals and it has had limited success.  The think I find funny or paradoxical is that we have managed to curbed immigration via the student route.  So someone needs to explain the logic to my simple mind.  

>> You come to the UK and get educated in the British way. You pay for the privilege, get no rights or social benefits and live here for a few years.  At the end of it, you have to leave the country and have no prospects of work here to pay back any fees and enrich the local   culture.   So why would you want to the UK??? Good way to kill our world leading universities which now wont get access to world talent or money and in all likelihood need to increase fees for local students.   Why??


----------



## USER1999 (Sep 6, 2016)

I work next to a so called college for foreign students. They have about 400 students on the books, and seating for about 200. It's just a scam. They have been raided by immigration twice, but just set up in a different name. The guy who owns it makes a fortune.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I don't know whether the points based system is good or bad but there isn't anything in that statement that actually says what system would be used other than her saying that she doesn't believe it's the way to deal with immigration.
		
Click to expand...

Her statement was about as negative as possible about the viability of a PBS though!

Basically, she stated it doesn't meet the criteria of 'control over who comes to UK'! 

Her example wasn't actually a particularly good one, imo, as, I believe, students - even those that don't (yet) speak English - are a 'special case' and should only be in the country for the period of their studies. Any fraudulent instances need to be handled by separate procedures - but that is, and has always been, a weakness in 'the system' that will be exploited if not properly policed!


----------



## vkurup (Sep 8, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			I work next to a so called college for foreign students. They have about 400 students on the books, and seating for about 200. It's just a scam. They have been raided by immigration twice, but just set up in a different name. The guy who owns it makes a fortune.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with weeding out fraud 'colleges'..  There should be a crackdown against these institutes, but by not allowing students who join legitimate colleges to work after their studies stops the flow of the brightest talent into the country. Why would you stop potentially the next nobel laureate to join an Oxbridge or the next poet/author/businessperson from joining and enriching themselves as well as the college they join. Mind you, the next big thing might still need to wait tables or do dishes or do odd jobs during their college time + need a job in the UK when they leave college.  

Letting fraudulent colleges operate while not restricting legitimate student visas is akin to cracking down on the migrants on a boat while letting the people smugglers go scot free.. <rant over>


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I still *HOPE* that it will not properly happen.  There will not be a second referendum, but I believe any Brexit will be so watered down then it will end up pleasing no one. The hard core brexiters will regard it as a sell out and the remainers will (continue to) question what is the point of spending a huge amount of time and resources to do it.
		
Click to expand...

Just fixed that for you.


----------



## vkurup (Sep 12, 2016)

All the stumbling around... bring this back into play..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2016)

Still wondering how we determine which unskilled EU workers we let in to do all the unskilled jobs UK residents don't want to do.  

My daughter (graduate this year and experienced in bar work) was working at _The Goodwood Revival_ at the weekend and most of the temporary staff she worked with were Romanian - and many others were from other Eastern European countries (her manager was Polish).  The Romanians were very worried about their status in the UK.  She felt upset for them as they were great, very hard workers - indeed a couple of them had to get up a 4am to get to Goodwood. 

And apropos nothing at all - she thought it amusing that as she was working in the BMW tent she had to pretend to be German and wear a 'typical' German bierkeller fraulein outfit


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2016)

I see Cameron has resigned.
History will not judge him well, splitting up the EU and the UK because he could not unite the Conservative Party.

Off to see if he can make as much money as Blair now, no doubt.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see Cameron has resigned.
History will not judge him well, splitting up the EU and the UK because he could not unite the Conservative Party.

Off to see if he can make as much money as Blair now, no doubt.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37342152

So he's resigned because he doesn't want to be a distraction to Theresa May, but he's not going until the next General Election; currently scheduled for May 2020, a mere 44 months away.  So not that worried about being a distraction, or knows that an early election will be called?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see Cameron has resigned.
History will not judge him well, splitting up the EU and the UK because he could not unite the Conservative Party.

Off to see if he can make as much money as Blair now, no doubt.
		
Click to expand...

#worstPMever


----------



## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37342152

So he's resigned because he doesn't want to be a distraction to Theresa May, but he's not going until the next General Election; currently scheduled for May 2020, a mere 44 months away.  So not that worried about being a distraction, or knows that an early election will be called?
		
Click to expand...

He's going now, there will be a by-election. Good riddance!


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			He's going now, there will be a by-election. Good riddance!
		
Click to expand...


Here here!


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 12, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			He's going now, there will be a by-election. Good riddance!
		
Click to expand...

The link originally said he was staying until the next General election but has since been updated.  Can agree with your last sentence though. :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2016)

Cameron's new carer in the Lords should be interesting.


----------



## chrisd (Sep 12, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Cameron's new carer in the Lords should be interesting.
		
Click to expand...

Why will he need a carer?


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Why will he need a carer?
		
Click to expand...

Smarty pants!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 13, 2016)

Did you not spot that a few of Cameron's carers were given peerages as a leaving present.


----------



## MarkE (Sep 13, 2016)

Cameron will be lauded in the future as a great PM who led the country out of the EU. A truly great man:thup:


----------



## BesCumber (Sep 13, 2016)

Welcome to the twilight zone.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Cameron will be lauded in the future as a great PM who led the country out of the EU. A truly great man:thup:
		
Click to expand...

He will be viewed as barely average - leading UK out of the EU and taking the lid off the Pandora's Box call Scottish Independence (at least with devolution Labour kept the lid on the box) and so potentially leading to the break up of the UK.  A splendid legacy indeed.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 13, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Cameron will be lauded in the future as a great PM who led the country out of the EU. A truly great man:thup:
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...-samantha-cameron-reassuringly-20160913113718

With usual rude word warning


----------



## MarkE (Sep 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He will be viewed as barely average - leading UK out of the EU and taking the lid off the Pandora's Box call Scottish Independence (at least with devolution Labour kept the lid on the box) and so potentially leading to the break up of the UK.  A splendid legacy indeed.
		
Click to expand...

To all those who who voted for Brexit, he will always be remembered fondly as the PM who cocked up so spectacularly, totally misreading public opinion, that he delivered the result that we never really thought was on. Once brexit is proven a roaring success even the doubters will look back on 'Dave' fondly.:cheers:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2016)

And so also we hear today what the Foreign Affairs Committee think about DC's part in the Libyan regime change and current dangerous situation "There are moments when I wake up and read the newspapers and think: 'I tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'."

And DC hyped-up the threat Gaddafi posed to the folk of Benghazi to support his position - remind you of anything - David Cameliar?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13857733


----------



## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so also we hear today what the Foreign Affairs Committee think about DC's part in the Libyan regime change and current dangerous situation "There are moments when I wake up and read the newspapers and think: 'I tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'."

And DC hyped-up the threat Gaddafi posed to the folk of Benghazi to support his position - remind you of anything - David Cameliar?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13857733

Click to expand...

No different to Labour under Blair then. All we need now is for Labour, under Corbyn, to invite Hamas and Hezbolah round for tea. Maybe Putin can pour...


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2016)

MarkE said:



			To all those who who voted for Brexit, he will always be remembered fondly as the PM who cocked up so spectacularly, totally misreading public opinion, that he delivered the result that we never really thought was on. Once brexit is proven a roaring success even the doubters will look back on 'Dave' fondly.:cheers:
		
Click to expand...

His lofty ideas of throwing the UK's lot in with the single state Eurocrats misfired spectacularly.  He made the same mistake of others before by not understanding the needs of the ordinary people; who you ignore at your political peril.  The Labour Movement should take stock.


----------

