# Free drop or not?



## SandyBalls (Feb 22, 2010)

Your ball comes to rest in a rabbit scrape right behind a tree in a direct line between ball and your next shot towards the flag. Do you get relief from the scrape, if so how much and in what direction?

This has become a very controversial debate amoung a large group of players and officials at our club.

Any views and interpretations would be appreciated.


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## birdieman (Feb 22, 2010)

There are no morals to this.

Burrowing animal scrape premits a free drop. You locate the nearest point of relief from the scrape, mark it with a tee or something then take out your driver and measure a clublength to the place that offers you the clearest route  to green or back into fairway and mark that spot with another tee. Then drop within the tees as near to the end that offers best relief as possible for you. If the ball doesn't stay within the tees drop again, third time you place the ball.
I'm guessing some people are saying you should take  a straight line back so as not to gain an advantage from your original lie but that's not the rule, you can drop to the side if you wish but not nearer the hole.

You get plenty bad breaks in golf, this is just a good break so take advantage of it.


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## Leftie (Feb 22, 2010)

There are no morals to this.

Burrowing animal scrape premits a free drop. You locate the nearest point of relief from the scrape, mark it with a tee or something then take out your driver and measure a clublength to the place that offers you the clearest route  to green or back into fairway and mark that spot with another tee. Then drop within the tees as near to the end that offers best relief as possible for you. *If the ball doesn't stay within the tees drop again, third time you place the ball.*
I'm guessing some people are saying you should take  a straight line back so as not to gain an advantage from your original lie but that's not the rule, you can drop to the side if you wish but not nearer the hole.

You get plenty bad breaks in golf, this is just a good break so take advantage of it.
		
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Maybe not quite true.  If the dropped ball comes to rest within 2 clubs lengths of where it is dropped, and not nearer the hole, then it is played from where it lies. 

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.


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## Robobum (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm assuming that it is this exception that is causing the confusion??

"Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

Hard one to call unless you can see the situation involved.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

This is a stinker. In some cases, no free drop, backwards or sideways


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## birdieman (Feb 22, 2010)

There are no morals to this.

Burrowing animal scrape premits a free drop. You locate the nearest point of relief from the scrape, mark it with a tee or something then take out your driver and measure a clublength to the place that offers you the clearest route  to green or back into fairway and mark that spot with another tee. Then drop within the tees as near to the end that offers best relief as possible for you. *If the ball doesn't stay within the tees drop again, third time you place the ball.*
I'm guessing some people are saying you should take  a straight line back so as not to gain an advantage from your original lie but that's not the rule, you can drop to the side if you wish but not nearer the hole.

You get plenty bad breaks in golf, this is just a good break so take advantage of it.
		
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Maybe not quite true.  If the dropped ball comes to rest within 2 clubs lengths of where it is dropped, and not nearer the hole, then it is played from where it lies. 

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.
		
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Leftie, are you saying as long as I drop the ball within the one clublength from the nearest point of relief te ball doesn't have to stay there so if it rolls up to another clublength away I just play it? Didn't know that, I thought the one clublength from the nearest point of relief was all I was allowed.  
Need clarification please. 

My take was always -
Free drop - one clublength from nearest point of relief.
Penalty drop - two clublengths from the actual ball or straight line back from flag thru ball line or back to where you played your last shot.


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## freddielong (Feb 22, 2010)

To me you get the free drop because your ball is in a scrapeing so even if you were to play sideways you would still be entitled to relief. Once you take releif if this opens up the green then you re just a lucky little (add your own)

IMO absolutely a free drop because its a free drop whichever way you are looking to play it


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## SandyBalls (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm assuming that it is this exception that is causing the confusion??

"Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

Hard one to call unless you can see the situation involved.
		
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This is correct. Not surprising that birdieman makes so many birdies eh? 
No relief because it is "unreasonable' to make a stroke due to the tree being in the way.
One could argue that you wanted to play the ball out sideways therefore the tree is not obstructing your swing. So you can take relief but would then still have to make the sideways swing for which you claimed relief.


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## JustOne (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm assuming that it is this exception that is causing the confusion??

"Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

Hard one to call unless you can see the situation involved.
		
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This is correct. Not surprising that birdieman makes so many birdies eh? 
No relief because it is "unreasonable' to make a stroke due to the tree being in the way.
One could argue that you wanted to play the ball out sideways therefore the tree is not obstructing your swing. So you can take relief but would then still have to make the sideways swing for which you claimed relief.
		
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I don't think that is true. Once you have taken relief you can re-evaluate how your ball is lying and what your options are, subsequently playing forwards if possible. You wouldn't get relief for example if you were in a bush and there was also an animal scrape near your ball.


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## SandyBalls (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm assuming that it is this exception that is causing the confusion??

"Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

Hard one to call unless you can see the situation involved.
		
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This is correct. Not surprising that birdieman makes so many birdies eh? 
No relief because it is "unreasonable' to make a stroke due to the tree being in the way.
One could argue that you wanted to play the ball out sideways therefore the tree is not obstructing your swing. So you can take relief but would then still have to make the sideways swing for which you claimed relief.
		
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I don't think that is true. Once you have taken relief you can re-evaluate how your ball is lying and what your options are, subsequently playing forwards if possible. You wouldn't get relief for example if you were in a bush and there was also an animal scrape near your ball.
		
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So the difference between making a stroke because of a bush in the way and making a stroke because a tree in the way is what exactly?

The fact is it is unreasonable to make a stroke because of the tree in the way so no relief should be granted. That is the argument for no relief.

I would love to have a rules officiator respond to this.


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## freddielong (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes justoneUK once you have dropped it you can change your mind and play it to the green if that option is now open to you. 

This IMO is a definite free drop 100% certain


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## JustOne (Feb 22, 2010)

So the difference between making a stroke because of a bush in the way and making a stroke because a tree in the way is what exactly?
		
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I said IN a bush. The rules work both for and against. When playing golf you are not supposed to be in an animal scrape so you get relief, unless your ball is literally already unplayable, even then it would be down to making a decision with your playing partners or referee if available.

I have seen someone who was near a staked tree have to take relief, he had to drop it behind a tree! and play out sideways... dem's the rulez.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

I think a rules official would ask the player this question.
If the scrape wasnt there, would you reasonably expect to play your next shot towards the flag ie out of the bush or through a tree trunk.
If the player answers no, he/she would chip out sideways, then no free drop.
I'm not saying I agree with it or not but I believe thats what would happen.


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## viscount17 (Feb 22, 2010)

you get free relief from the scrape not from the tree, but as is said above 'nearest point of relief with the club you intend to use' may not be behind the tree. 
nearest point behind may be at least a full club length back, nearest point to the side may be 1 foot. 

'nearest' has to mean nearest/closest?

if you want relief from a tree then declare an unplayable and take the stroke penalty for doing so.
you aren't entitled to relief just because your line is blocked.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 22, 2010)

From the Decisions book:

25-1b/3 Improving Line of Play When Taking Relief from Abnormal Ground Condition

Q: In certain circumstances, in complying with Rule 25-1b, it is possible for a player incidentally to improve his line of play, e.g. avoid playing over a bunker or a tree. Is this permissible? 

A: Yes. If a player's ball is in one of the conditions covered by Rule 25 and if, in taking relief in accordance with the procedure laid down in Rule 25-1b, his line of play is improved, this is his good fortune.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

What would you class as abnormal ground conditions?


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## Robobum (Feb 22, 2010)

If I am picturing the scenario correctly then I would take free relief from the scrape. If I could make a swing at moving the ball sideways (or backwards) and nothing else was stopping me from making this stroke then I'd argue that I was entitled to it.

What I did then would and in what direction I played in would depend on the outcome of the drop?


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## SammmeBee (Feb 22, 2010)

What would you class as abnormal ground conditions?
		
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Well the rules say this:

An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

I agree but before you even get to that point, you have to ask the question I asked above
The bush/ tree trunk takes priority.


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## Robobum (Feb 22, 2010)

What would you class as abnormal ground conditions?
		
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Not going down the "Seve line" are you Bob??

To paraphrase:

"Si eeets a scrape by a burrowing animal"

"Like a dog scrape Seve?"

"Si a dog scrape!"

"A dog is not a burrowing animal Seve, play it as it lies!"


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## SammmeBee (Feb 22, 2010)

My take is this:


Ball in rabbit scrape, with tree in way of direct line to flag, so I have to play sideways, which I can do unrestricted.  I get a drop from the rabbit scrape, nearest point, one club length, blah, blah, which takes me 3/4ft to the side of the tree.  I can now play direct to the flag, so I shall crack on....

If though, I was in the rabbit scrape in a bush which meant I couldn't play any kind of shot then I think I am then in the 'clearly unreasonable to play a shot' bracket and would have to take a penalty drop...


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

What would you class as abnormal ground conditions?
		
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Not going down the "Seve line" are you Bob??

To paraphrase:

"Si eeets a scrape by a burrowing animal"

"Like a dog scrape Seve?"

"Si a dog scrape!"

"A dog is not a burrowing animal Seve, play it as it lies!" 

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The only time I saw Seve speechless.
Was it John Paramour? Can't remember now


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## birdieman (Feb 22, 2010)

Not surprising that birdieman makes so many birdies eh?
		
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Don't care for the cheating insinuation thanks. No one has proved who is right or wrong yet -  seems to be some confusion on this and a bit of a grey area. I have not ever found myself in this situation anyway thankfully.
I've seen one guy take relief from a blue stake (his foot was touching grass cuttings) inside a large broom bush, got his one clublength relief so had a shot at the green. We argued that one a bit but he put his case and took the shot. Similar situation to the animal scrape behind tree in the OP. 
A free lift is a free lift. Once taken it's hard to then say you can't hit it where you want. Accept I may be wrong with this of course.


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## Sailor (Feb 22, 2010)

This can be quite difficult to understand and thus you should read Rule 25-1 and try to follow what it says. This is largely the situation (if your ball is lying through the green). First determine that the scrape is from an animal which will live in or take shelter there and a dog is not one of those.

1.	You must look at the situation and say to yourself â€œIf my ball was not in an abnormal ground condition (rabbit scrape) which club would I be using. The rule then says you should (not must) select that club to determine the nearest point of relief (NPR). 
2.	The NPR should then be found as the nearest point where if your ball lay you would be able to play it with no interference from the rabbit scrape ( and that alone for trees etc do not enter the picture)
It should be mentioned here that this may be an entirely different place dependant on whether or not the player is right or left handed. 

3.	It is then advisable to mark that NPR point thus found. 
4.	Now select your longest club (even a belly putter) and measure one clubâ€™s length in any direction and mark that point.
5.	Determine that this point is not nearer the hole.
6.	Now is the time to lift the ball from the rabbit scrape, not before, to eliminate any point of argument and possible penalty.
7.	Drop the ball in the required manner to strike the ground within that distance. Upon striking the ground the ball may roll a distance of two clubâ€™s length further from the point where it first struck the ground. Thus you can, in extreme cases, find the ball almost three clubâ€™s length distance away even come to rest on closely mown area.
8.	The ball is ready to play. And you may now change your club yet again to use whichever one you wish when making your stroke.
9.	If, in carrying all this out you have avoided a tree or bush that may be in your way then so be it. That is your good luck. But equally if the NPR is in the middle of a bush then that is your bad luck and you must either play it as it lies or take relief under the unplayable ball rule which allows you two club lengths from the ballâ€™s position or as far back as you wish in line of ball and flag or back to the place where you played the last stroke, penalty stroke.

Please remember that this only applies to a ball lying through the green and not one in water hazards, bunkers or on putting greens. There is no penalty involved.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

What if the player has hit his ball in behind a tree, down in the roots unplayable, but is standing on rabbit droppings when stance is taken facing the flag which is behind the tree. Free drop?


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## Robobum (Feb 22, 2010)

What if the player has hit his ball in behind a tree, down in the roots unplayable, but is standing on rabbit droppings when stance is taken facing the flag which is behind the tree. Free drop?
		
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No.

This exception would apply: "it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition" 

You'd have to be a genius to convince anyone that you will play through the tree so the scrape would not come into it.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 22, 2010)

What if the player has hit his ball in behind a tree, down in the roots unplayable, but is standing on rabbit droppings when stance is taken facing the flag which is behind the tree. Free drop?
		
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No...what Robo said...


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

So, the player decides he cant play forwards but can chip out sideways. He takes his stance to come out sideways and is standing in droppings. Free drop?


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## SammmeBee (Feb 22, 2010)

So, the player decides he cant play forwards but can chip out sideways. He takes his stance to come out sideways and is standing in droppings. Free drop?
		
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Yes...same situation as first raised.....


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2010)

Someone not paid for a v-easy Bob - you seem a bit hardnosed today ! or is it a mission to get the forum up to speed on the rules


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2010)

Someone not paid for a v-easy Bob - you seem a bit hardnosed today !
		
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Not at all, just fed up with this snow


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## Region3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Not at all, just fed up with this snow 

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I did offer in the 'Arrange A Game' section 

Are you playing devils advocate because you think someone's got it wrong, or just to further our knowledge of the rules?


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## Leftie (Feb 22, 2010)

Leftie, are you saying as long as I drop the ball within the one clublength from the nearest point of relief te ball doesn't have to stay there so if it rolls up to another clublength away I just play it? Didn't know that, I thought the one clublength from the nearest point of relief was all I was allowed.  
Need clarification please. 

My take was always -
Free drop - one clublength from nearest point of relief.
Penalty drop - two clublengths from the actual ball or straight line back from flag thru ball line or back to where you played your last shot.
		
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BM  The DROP is within 1 club length etc.  Up to 2 club lengths roll is allowed. If it rolls past this point or nearer the hole then you do the re-drop procedure.

Sailor explained it far more eloquently than I or The Rules could.


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## JustOne (Feb 22, 2010)

Well at least we learn something new everyday. I thought WITHIN 1 clublength meant that the ball had to stay within one clublength, not roll 6 feet beyond.

Normally you see a pro mark the position of the ball and the end of their club and drop behind that line....can't say I recall a ball rolling further away that wasn't re-dropped


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2010)

We learnt something else too.

Some of our rules, while being fairly easy to understand, when applied to certain circumstances make it impossible to get the right answer unless John P is stood by you all the time.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 22, 2010)

See decision 25-1b/22

A ball is behind a tree and in a scrape - and a sideways shot is the only reasonable option. Is there relief - yes. And if the taking of relief "...gets the player out from behind the tree,then he is entitled to play towards the green"

What seems to have been confusing folk is the difference between the act of "playing a shot" and the trajectory of the ball after you've actually hit it. By and large, you get relief if something prevents a fair stab at hitting the ball - it's not really relevant where the ball might be going after you've hit it.

So, if its the tree (regardless of the scrape) that stops you swinging the club properly, then there's no relief. But if you <u>could</u> swing the club properly regardless of tree you can have relief from the scrape - even if the ball would have hit the tree half a nanosecond later had you played that direction.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2010)

Your ball comes to rest in a rabbit scrape right behind a tree in a direct line between ball and your next shot towards the flag. Do you get relief from the scrape, if so how much and in what direction?

This has become a very controversial debate amoung a large group of players and officials at our club.

Any views and interpretations would be appreciated.
		
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I think this is quite simple. If you are entitles to a drop due to a rabbit scrape or some other ground condition, and taking that drop legally has the fortunate side effect of giving you a better line to the green, that is your good luck.


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## DCB (Feb 23, 2010)

Oh the joys of another good Forum rules post


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## birdieman (Feb 23, 2010)

I think I've cleared it up - been consulting the R&A Decisions on the Rules of Golf book. Page 394 has the answers.

Basically if you are behind a tree and a burrowing animal cast interferes with your swing when playing sideways then you get relief and a free drop. If that relief offes you an opportunity to go for the green you can take it.

However if the animal cast only prevents you hitting towards the green (which is obscured by the tree) then you do not get a free drop, you'd play it as it lies and chip sideways probably.

So therefore if your ball is actually resting in a molehill or rabbit scrape then you can say I'm playing this sideways back to the fairway but I need a drop from this molehill/scrape then you can take relief and go for green if the drop allows you a line of sight forward.

That is what a lot of us said originally. The OP made no mention of the ball being in a bush 

If a ball lies in a bush on top of an animal scrape you are not entitled to relief as the bush prevents a swing. That's on page 393.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2010)

Yep, I agree. All the decisions and the exception to the rule refer to it being unreasonable to play a stroke and give examples of being in the middle of a bush or in an indentation etc. Nowhere is it stated that the direction of play is relevant except in the one decision which says it is your good fortune if you improve your position due to taking relief.

The key question to ask is "can I reasonably play a stroke ?". If the answer is "Yes" (regardless of direction) then you are entitled to relief.


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## Region3 (Feb 23, 2010)

This is confusing for someone who isn't confident with the rules to start with! 

Earlier, it was said that if the ball was in a rabbit scrape with a tree 6" behind it you wouldn't get a drop because you couldn't reasonably make a swing at the ball anyway.
If you were in that situation though, as a right hander on the right side rough, you'd have to play even further away from the fairway because of the tree (excepting LH shots or hitting behind you etc).
If the rabbit scrape prevented you from playing that shot you could then have the free drop and go for the green if you wanted from your new position.
Is that right?


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## freddielong (Feb 23, 2010)

Yes but the animal scrape does not have to prevent you playing your shot you just have to be in it


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## SharkAttack (Feb 24, 2010)

This is confusing for someone who isn't confident with the rules to start with! 

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You should get someone to buy you the book "Golf Rule Illustrated 2010" and the DVD "Golf Rules In Action" as a birthday present. Both are from the R&A and great starters for people not sure of the rules, the DVD is great as it shows you what to do using examples from the Pro Tour. You can get them quite cheap from the internet shop's.


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## Region3 (Feb 24, 2010)

This is confusing for someone who isn't confident with the rules to start with! 

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You should get someone to buy you the book "Golf Rule Illustrated 2010" and the DVD "Golf Rules In Action" as a birthday present. Both are from the R&A and great starters for people not sure of the rules, the DVD is great as it shows you what to do using examples from the Pro Tour. You can get them quite cheap from the internet shop's.
		
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Cheers Shark, I might just get them myself to save the wait


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