# Does the shaft make any difference???



## NorfolkShaun (Dec 4, 2017)

Thoughts on this please.

There are quite a lot of differing thoughts on Youtube and the internet etc. about golf shafts making a lot to no difference.

I have spoken to a couple of local pros about it. One describes it as the engine of the club and 'incredibly important' to know your numbers and get the correct shaft. (runs a shop and range)

To a different pro who suggested, 'just look at the results'. If you hit clubs ok they must be fine and there will be little difference. (gives my lessons and has no shop)

I have gone through a lot of swing changes since I was ever fitted for a club over 5 years ago and have increased my distances by around a club with all my clubs. 

Thing is I now cannot help but think I should go for a fitting, however I hit my clubs well, though I do sometime feel a little loss of control (not much).

Would a shaft / club fitting help?

Or am I kidding myself and I should look at the results. Which are generally good and pocket the cash and stop listening to the marking guff.

After all, i'm an amature handicap golfer, and by nature my swing is never 100% the same each time.


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## Fish (Dec 4, 2017)

To me the shaft is the engine.


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## tsped83 (Dec 4, 2017)

This shaft is the engine tosh is just that, tosh. The golfer is the engine if people insist on that analogy.


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## hovis (Dec 4, 2017)

shaft mostly definitely makes a difference but not as nearly as much as people think.   a shaft cant make a slice a fade or a hook into a draw.  

i forgot my golf clubs a few weeks back and used one of the hire sets.  the shaft was very soft (almost like an elastic band)  although it felt dreadful i still found as many fairways as i usually do

people will insist that they dont like a particular shaft because it makes the ball "balloon".   this doesn't happen. 

one of the fitters at our place hates dynamic gold s300 shafts with passion.  he said he hates everything about them.  his twin brother Baught some dg stickers off ebay and placed them on his preferred kbs shafts.    he hit two balls and said "swap this shaft, its crap"

https://youtu.be/ZVZ3PCgxTlw
worth a watch


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## One Planer (Dec 4, 2017)

tsped83 said:



			This shaft is the engine tosh is just that, tosh. The golfer is the engine if people insist on that analogy.
		
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Agree.  Engine is the person swinging the club, the shaft is the gear box.


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## User101 (Dec 4, 2017)

A bad swing will have far more influence than a badly fitted shaft. However, look at my topic about modern day drivers from the weekend, has a different shaft in a different head given me a huge gain in carry, I don't know.

I went for a fitting last week and I have never used stiff shafted irons in the past, fitter recommended KBS tour stiff shafts for me, so what do I know.


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## the_coach (Dec 4, 2017)

the more anyone sprays the strike pattern all over the face the less a shaft will be of a whole bunch of assistance - but even generally some shafts will still help better than others

shafts re -spin rate tend with _a center strike_ to affect the rpm's by around 500- 600 rpm max

it's the golfer that provides the forces & torques with the swing motion which the shaft then helps to get out to the club head with the best club head to ball speed efficiency at impact - shaft not 'the engine'

one of the biggest plusses for a shaft that works with a particular swing motion is providing 'feel' plus having a shaft profile that again works with a particular swing motion to more reliably place the cg of the club head 'behind' the ball

my take is everyone should be looking to get a fitting preferably by a specialist fitter even better if that also happens to be a teaching pro - but it really has to be on a launch monitor to be able to get proper data 

folks should approach that fitting looking to swing whatever club with their 'stock' swing & not looking to swing straight out of their shoes searching for maximum distance 

- it's a ways more important to look to get the best all-round launch conditions - so strike pattern/launch angle/AoA/dynamic loft/spin rate plus/ball speed etc. & being able to get the cg behind the ball with control of face angle & path 
that's a ways more important than just looking as the greatest distance travelled


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## User101 (Dec 4, 2017)

Brilliant again coach. As for feel of a shaft, changing from my TM R11s to my Titleist 915, I can actually feel the clubhead on my titleist as I swing, I couldn't feel anything of the TM.


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## jim8flog (Dec 5, 2017)

To me absolutely.

A couple of years ago I had 3 identical 6 iron heads and 6 different shafts. Trying out different options I took these out on the course to try out in 'real time'. Although one or two played very similarly side by side there was a lot of variation between one and another fairly different shafts eg a NS pro 850 and TT Dynamic Gold. Made the choice of shaft to fit in my irons a fairly obvious choice.

When I went for a fitting the guy was recommending a shaft solely based upon the numbers. I had already discounted that shaft based upon 'real time' usage.


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2017)

To me, the most important aspect of the shaft is the weight. Get this right, and i can play equally badly with anything.

Too light, for me, equals no feel, and no control.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2017)

i believe it can. A guy i play with one is off +1 and had the same driver for 15 years that up until this year no other driver could get near distance wise. he switched to a lighter lower spinning shaft and he hits in 15 yards further into the wind. he has a great swing and hits it a country mile and is not a big guy and 55.


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## Curls (Dec 5, 2017)

Depends.

If you're already using something well-suited, then changing will only give you a minor gain (though there is a school of thought that says that every incremental gain you can aquire you should do because they'll all add up).

I had a hire set once with a soft regular shaft, it felt like the head was attached to a rope. I hated it.

For a long time I played the Ping regular shaft in a G15 and got on well with it, until I tried the regular shaft in a Titleist which played stiffer. I felt like I could get into it more, like I knew when the release was better and could get behind it. This added real yards, this season I was in places I hadn't seen previously on my home course.

I recently bought a stiff shaft to see if the progression could be continued. While I did feel like I could launch it, it doesn't really offer me much more than my current driver except the launch is lower. This is one range session on a cold day with frozen range balls, so I'm not quite putting it up for sale yet!


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2017)

hovis said:



			shaft mostly definitely makes a difference but not as nearly as much as people think.   a shaft cant make a slice a fade or a hook into a draw.
		
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Everything I've read suggests the shaft can change the shape. If it doesn't what is the point of being fitted?


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## Robster59 (Dec 5, 2017)

When I went for a fitting at Callaway I tried several shafts all with the same head.  All were measured on the trackman and we reviewed the results afterwards.  To be honest, before I saw the results I knew what shaft it would be as it felt great and gave me better results.  It was the UST Recoil graphite.  No I had no plans to buy graphite when I went there but the results convinced me and I've been very happy with them ever since.  
So in my opinion, shafts do make a difference.


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## HankMarvin (Dec 5, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			i believe it can. A guy i play with one is off +1 and had the same driver for 15 years that up until this year no other driver could get near distance wise. he switched to a lighter lower spinning shaft and he hits in 15 yards further into the wind. he has a great swing and hits it a country mile and is not a big guy and 55.
		
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Are you speaking about Robert ?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Everything I've read suggests the shaft can change the shape. If it doesn't what is the point of being fitted?
		
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if you've read it then please explain how a shaft can change shape?.  to change the shape of the shot then the shaft has to be present the club face in a more open or closed position than normal.    that is what is known as torque.      whilst the clubhead can twist the shaft on the downswing you are talking micro millimetres.  not enough to change your draw into a fade.   

shafts do matter but like i said its more fine tuning than game changing


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## NorfolkShaun (Dec 5, 2017)

hovis said:



			shaft mostly definitely makes a difference but not as nearly as much as people think.   a shaft cant make a slice a fade or a hook into a draw.  

i forgot my golf clubs a few weeks back and used one of the hire sets.  the shaft was very soft (almost like an elastic band)  although it felt dreadful i still found as many fairways as i usually do

people will insist that they dont like a particular shaft because it makes the ball "balloon".   this doesn't happen. 

one of the fitters at our place hates dynamic gold s300 shafts with passion.  he said he hates everything about them.  his twin brother Baught some dg stickers off ebay and placed them on his preferred kbs shafts.    he hit two balls and said "swap this shaft, its crap"

https://youtu.be/ZVZ3PCgxTlw
worth a watch
		
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Thank you, that is a good video and I have seen it before.

Mark is very much on the side of strike and loft and not so much the shaft more the complete package not just one part makes the difference, one think that he does mention is how important the feel is. Maybe that's what it comes down to with a shaft, feel and confidence.

A gent I regularly play with has just changed his shaft and he is by quite inconsistent but he has gone from regular to stiff and it does appear this has improved his accuracy.

That said he can still hook slice top and sky his driver perfectly


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2017)

hovis said:



			if you've read it then please explain how a shaft can change shape?.  to change the shape of the shot then the shaft has to be present the club face in a more open or closed position than normal.    that is what is known as torque.      whilst the clubhead can twist the shaft on the downswing you are talking micro millimetres.  not enough to change your draw into a fade.   

shafts do matter but like i said its more fine tuning than game changing
		
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You said in your original post that a shaft can't change a slice into a fade or a hook into a draw. Well actually it can.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

DaveR said:



			You said in your original post that a shaft can't change a slice into a fade or a hook into a draw. Well actually it can.
		
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please explain how.....  your saying that shaft can control face angle at impact to that extent?   even shaft manufacturers say 6/7 degree is the absolute maximum you can get out of a shaft.  and even that amount requires a special individual with the worst shaft possible


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2017)

HankMarvin said:



			Are you speaking about Robert ?
		
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yes


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## User101 (Dec 5, 2017)

The problem I have with that video is the lack of an inconsistent golf swing. If he'd got a 10 and 16 hcapper i suspect the results would be much different and that's where a consistent swinger can modify their swing to suit a given shaft.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

Cabby said:



			The problem I have with that video is the lack of an inconsistent golf swing. If he'd got a 10 and 16 hcapper i suspect the results would be much different and that's where a consistent swinger can modify their swing to suit a given shaft.
		
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so are you saying that a suitable golf shaft benefits a person with an inconsistent golf swing more than some with a consistent one?


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## User101 (Dec 5, 2017)

No I'm saying that it can be easy to show something with very consistent swings.


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## HankMarvin (Dec 5, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			yes
		
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Thought so. What was it he called you ?

Pea Shooter or Pop Gun, it escapes me at the moment.

But for an Old Boy he gets it out there even with his 3 wood


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2017)

HankMarvin said:



			Thought so. What was it he called you ?

Pea Shooter or Pop Gun, it escapes me at the moment.

But for an Old Boy he gets it out there even with his 3 wood
		
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can't have been either of those...

Only person I know that has gained distance with the Epic.... tight fisted bugger doesn't like buying new clubs, only changed his ping eye two irons a couple of years ago and the driver and 3 wood this year  from the 15 year old clubs he had before


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2017)

hovis said:



			if you've read it then please explain how a shaft can change shape?.  to change the shape of the shot then the shaft has to be present the club face in a more open or closed position than normal.    that is what is known as torque.      whilst the clubhead can twist the shaft on the downswing you are talking micro millimetres.  not enough to change your draw into a fade.   

shafts do matter but like i said its more fine tuning than game changing
		
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Of course a shaft can change the shot shape. Flex, loading, tempo, kick point etc all have an effect on how the clubface is presented to the ball. You seem to have lots of mates that are pros or fitters, ask them to explain a few basics to you.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Of course a shaft can change the shot shape. Flex, loading, tempo, kick point etc all have an effect on how the clubface is presented to the ball. You seem to have lots of mates that are pros or fitters, ask them to explain a few basics to you.
		
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http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wis...ts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/

this bloke might know a thing or two


if you bothered to read the post properly you will see that i didn't say it cant effect shot shape.  I'm saying that it cant change it to the extent that its changing hooks to draws and slices to fades.

its because i am friends with club fitters and club builders that i know how full of crap people are.   i have lost count of how many people have been humbled by the counter evidence that is presented towards them about their misconceptions of shaft knowledge.   
i always thought i would spin the Nutts off a ladies shaft until i was forced to try one and saw zero increase in spin


cant you explain how shaft loading,  shaft kick and tempo can cause the shaft to present the clubface  to the ball different enough to have a noticeable effect on shape ?


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2017)

hovis said:



			if you bothered to read the post properly you will see that i didn't say it cant effect shot shape.  I'm saying that it cant change it to the extent that its changing hooks to draws and slices to fades.
		
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I did read your post and I replied to exactly the point above. A shaft can change a hook into a draw or a slice into a fade or vice versa. If you don't understand that then you really should spend a bit more time talking to your 'friends' and listening to what they have to say. 

If they are telling you otherwise, why are they fitting people for clubs instead of letting them buy off the shelf?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

this is worth a watch.  Two shafts on the kbs range that are opposed ends of the spectrum.   
https://youtu.be/9OesA4ZxDlQ


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2017)

DaveR said:



			I did read your post and I replied to exactly the point above. A shaft can change a hook into a draw or a slice into a fade or vice versa. If you don't understand that then you really should spend a bit more time talking to your 'friends' and listening to what they have to say. 

If they are telling you otherwise, why are they fitting people for clubs instead of letting them buy off the shelf?
		
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money.  that's why,  money. 
 shafts do work.  even if its only by a small Amount then why wouldn't you take that advantage if you can? it could make the difference between me finding a fairway bunker or first cut.  its not going to stop me hooking one ob

i will ask again how can a shaft turn a hook into a draw.   tom wishon and diamana have said that the highest movement they have ever seen is 7 degrees.   and to do that they purposely put the worst possible shaft in a beast of a player.     

please explain how a shaft can make a hook a draw?


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## User101 (Dec 5, 2017)

It's a very interesting debate particularly for me who has just been fitted for callaway irons as there is a set on ebay just now that are kbs tour V but I was fitted for kbs tour so my dilemma is buy new with the shaft I was fitted for or buy at half price 2nd hand with almost but not quite the shaft I was ftted for.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 6, 2017)

hovis said:



			money.  that's why,  money. 
 shafts do work.  even if its only by a small Amount then why wouldn't you take that advantage if you can? it could make the difference between me finding a fairway bunker or first cut.  its not going to stop me hooking one ob

i will ask again how can a shaft turn a hook into a draw.   tom wishon and diamana have said that the highest movement they have ever seen is 7 degrees.   and to do that they purposely put the worst possible shaft in a beast of a player.     

please explain how a shaft can make a hook a draw?
		
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Have a look on Google, plenty of information on how golf shafts work. DaveR is right, different shaft characteristics affect how the clubface is presented to the ball which in turn affects spin rates, launch angles etc. That is how you can turn a hook into a draw and so on.

You are saying the shaft has no effect? So if I took an AP2 head I would get the same launch, spin, carry, rollout and dispersion regardless of which shaft was in it?


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## Wildrover (Dec 6, 2017)

hovis said:



			money.  that's why,  money. 
 shafts do work.  even if its only by a small Amount then why wouldn't you take that advantage if you can? it could make the difference between me finding a fairway bunker or first cut.  its not going to stop me hooking one ob

i will ask again how can a shaft turn a hook into a draw.   tom wishon and diamana have said that the highest movement they have ever seen is 7 degrees.   and to do that they purposely put the worst possible shaft in a beast of a player.    

please explain how a shaft can make a hook a draw?
		
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Just a few degrees difference will result in a visible difference in ball flight, nobody is claiming that a vicious slice will suddenly become a soft draw but you can minimise the damage. If somebody cuts across the ball then they will generally speaking always have a left to right flight (RH of course) but by putting them in a softer and possibly lighter shaft you can minimise this cut so they will hit it a bit further and a bit straighter, hit more fairways and generally enjoy the game more. More loft helps also when talking Drivers & Fairways etc. It all makes it slightly easier to square the face up. I see the results of this every day for myself. Of course this would reverse for someone who hits draw/hook.  At the end of the day Trackman does not have feelings and does not lie, the data is all in front of you.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			You are saying the shaft has no effect? So if I took an AP2 head I would get the same launch, spin, carry, rollout and dispersion regardless of which shaft was in it?
		
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JESUS CHRIST!!!!!   for the hundredth time "i didn't say shaft has no effect"   i mean seriously, are you reading what I'm saying or just seeing what you want?


shaft does have an effect.  but it cant turn my little draw into a hook or vice versa.   you can only get about 2 degrees of club face movement off a steel shaft.  so if the face can only bend 2 degrees either way (according to tom wishon) then how can 2 degrees cause a hook.???????

maybe if you swinging 10 degrees into out but thats not the shaft.  or if the added 2 degrees are on top of your already 2 degrees closed face.  but again, thats you 

as for lunch have a look at these two shafts that are polar opposite.   shafts doesn't effort launch nowhere near as much as people think.   one shaft is the highest launch they're do the other is the lowest.   if shafts are like majic then why no difference?  
https://youtu.be/9OesA4ZxDlQ


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## LCW (Dec 6, 2017)

My 2p on the shaft discussion.  

If I present a face to path that is open 4/7/10/14 degrees (take your pick) due to grip, wrist angles, lie angle, general swing really no shaft in the world is going to sort that out.  What will sort that out is a lesson with a PGA pro.  If you think a shaft will help your slice into a fade and vica versa when you present drastic angles to the little white ball your dreaming and clutching at straws IMO.  If you get the CG of the club over your hand path in the downswing for example your doomed using any club no matter what shaft/ how far the weight in the heel is etc etc.

How ever on the flip side I think if you can present some nice numbers on a fairly consistent basis and strike being the most important thing near the CG of the club then I think the shaft can have some effect depending on the person.  I completely advocate a fitting in *any *club you buy but go in knowing that you as the golfer are "the engine" not some KBS Tour C-taper lite (other brands available) that you come out with.  From my own opinion feel is the most important factor to me I am fairly youngish  and have some speed about me but I really dislike shafts that are super lite.  You can be blinded by numbers sometimes as I found i launched the lighter shafts in my irons higher with more spin and longer but my dispersion was not as tight as I wanted both left and right.  I gained this back somewhat with something like a Project X 6.0.   Which when we are talking grams in weight not much different to some others I tried but to me felt like i could play on my actual golf course with.  For woods again about optimizing spin and launch all depending on presenting some good numbers.  If my angle of attack with a wood is 4 down and the strike is low heel no shaft will sort that out IMO get a lesson then get fitted or actually do both at the same time.

Just my opinions you may agree or not ne:


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2017)

LCW said:



			My 2p on the shaft discussion.  

If I present a face to path that is open 4/7/10/14 degrees (take your pick) due to grip, wrist angles, lie angle, general swing really no shaft in the world is going to sort that out.  What will sort that out is a lesson with a PGA pro.  If you think a shaft will help your slice into a fade and vica versa when you present drastic angles to the little white ball your dreaming and clutching at straws IMO.  If you get the CG of the club over your hand path in the downswing for example your doomed using any club no matter what shaft/ how far the weight in the heel is etc etc.

How ever on the flip side I think if you can present some nice numbers on a fairly consistent basis and strike being the most important thing near the CG of the club then I think the shaft can have some effect depending on the person.  I completely advocate a fitting in *any *club you buy but go in knowing that you as the golfer are "the engine" not some KBS Tour C-taper lite (other brands available) that you come out with.  From my own opinion feel is the most important factor to me I am fairly youngish  and have some speed about me but I really dislike shafts that are super lite.  You can be blinded by numbers sometimes as I found i launched the lighter shafts in my irons higher with more spin and longer but my dispersion was not as tight as I wanted both left and right.  I gained this back somewhat with something like a Project X 6.0.   Which when we are talking grams in weight not much different to some others I tried but to me felt like i could play on my actual golf course with.  For woods again about optimizing spin and launch all depending on presenting some good numbers.  If my angle of attack with a wood is 4 down and the strike is low heel no shaft will sort that out IMO get a lesson then get fitted or actually do both at the same time.

Just my opinions you may agree or not ne:
		
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id agree with everything you just wrote


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2017)

hovis said:



			JESUS CHRIST!!!!!   for the hundredth time "i didn't say shaft has no effect"   i mean seriously, are you reading what I'm saying or just seeing what you want?


shaft does have an effect.  but it cant turn my little draw into a hook or vice versa.   you can only get about 2 degrees of club face movement off a steel shaft.  so if the face can only bend 2 degrees either way (according to tom wishon) then how can 2 degrees cause a hook.???????

maybe if you swinging 10 degrees into out but thats not the shaft.  or if the added 2 degrees are on top of your already 2 degrees closed face.  but again, thats you 

as for lunch have a look at these two shafts that are polar opposite.   shafts doesn't effort launch nowhere near as much as people think.   one shaft is the highest launch they're do the other is the lowest.   if shafts are like majic then why no difference?  
https://youtu.be/9OesA4ZxDlQ

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https://mygolfspy.com/mygolfspy-labs-shaft-torque/

This should help you understand the effect of different shaft characteristics.

You say that a shaft cannot turn a hook into a draw etc well I suggest you look at the dispersion figures in the above link.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2017)

DaveR said:



https://mygolfspy.com/mygolfspy-labs-shaft-torque/

This should help you understand the effect of different shaft characteristics.

You say that a shaft cannot turn a hook into a draw etc well I suggest you look at the dispersion figures in the above link.
		
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I've had a look at the dispersion chart.  clearly the shaft is effecting the dispersion.   didn't see any hooks or slices in that article though.  golfer 1 was just hitting pushes.  in fact he had that tendency with all 3 shafts  bar the odd shot.    all shots appear to be on the fairway\ light rough????

golfers 3  isn't hitting any hooks either???


again,, for the sixth time.  I'm not saying that shafts can't influence shot shape.  clearly it does.  I'm saying shafts cant turn a good swing into a slice or bring a hook shot back from the dead and make it a draw

a hook or slice is a swing fault. period.  no shafts is going to save or correct that shot


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2017)

the_coach said:



			the more anyone sprays the strike pattern all over the face the less a shaft will be of a whole bunch of assistance - but even generally some shafts will still help better than others

shafts re -spin rate tend with _a center strike_ to affect the rpm's by around 500- 600 rpm max

it's the golfer that provides the forces & torques with the swing motion which the shaft then helps to get out to the club head with the best club head to ball speed efficiency at impact - shaft not 'the engine'

one of the biggest plusses for a shaft that works with a particular swing motion is providing 'feel' plus having a shaft profile that again works with a particular swing motion to more reliably place the cg of the club head 'behind' the ball

my take is everyone should be looking to get a fitting preferably by a specialist fitter even better if that also happens to be a teaching pro - but it really has to be on a launch monitor to be able to get proper data 

folks should approach that fitting looking to swing whatever club with their 'stock' swing & not looking to swing straight out of their shoes searching for maximum distance 

- it's a ways more important to look to get the best all-round launch conditions - so strike pattern/launch angle/AoA/dynamic loft/spin rate plus/ball speed etc. & being able to get the cg behind the ball with control of face angle & path 
that's a ways more important than just looking as the greatest distance travelled
		
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This is all well and good - but if I am trying to improve my swing then matching shaft to swing means I would have to keep changing the shaft.  Nice trick then to hype up the value of the shaft.

Now if a pro said to me that the shaft I had on my driver is really one that will only suit ++ handicappers or pros - then I might change it.   Or if I was told it was so old it was dead - or that it was of a design that even the cheaper modern shafts could better - then I might well change.  Otherwise I view such things with a degree of hmmmm.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is all well and good - but if I am trying to improve my swing then matching shaft to swing means I would have to keep changing the shaft.  Nice trick then to hype up the value of the shaft.

Now if a pro said to me that the shaft I had on my driver is really one that will only suit ++ handicappers or pros - then I might change it.   Or if I was told it was so old it was dead - or that it was of a design that even the cheaper modern shafts could better - then I might well change.  Otherwise I view such things with a degree of hmmmm.
		
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It depends on what the swing changes are trying to achieve! 

Generally, tweaking attributes of a swing is not going to alter 'most desirable' shaft, so unlikely to need iterations of shaft as swing changes! Possible exceptions could be if the awing change was in the area of the transition or to increase lag. A heavier shaft can help 'solve' issues in the transition if it's considered too quick - so if the transition is smoothed, a lighter shaft might end up providing a few more yards. Lower tourque shafts can help reduce dispersion issues if lag is increased. If it's merely increased swing speed that is desired, then a lighter shaft can help that!

But if it's 'correcting a fundamental fault', like a tendency to Reverse-Pivot or Early-extend, then it's highly unlikely that a shaft that works well (or badly) currently would work any differntly after the change.


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## Maninblack4612 (Dec 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			To me the shaft is the engine.
		
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This must be one of the poorest analogies I've ever heard. An engine supplies power. The "engine" in a golf swing is the bloke on the end of the club. The shaft is the transmission, if anything, and,  as the connection between the player & the ball, it is obviously very important. 


The main problems caused by shafts is people using a shaft which is too stiff to provide any action on the ball from a slow swingspeed & /or too long to control. I wouldn't say that, for the average player, there is an ideal shaft but you must have one which generally suits you.


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## the_coach (Dec 6, 2017)

the_coach said:



			the more anyone sprays the strike pattern all over the face the less a shaft will be of a whole bunch of assistance - but even generally some shafts will still help better than others

shafts re -spin rate tend with _a center strike_ to affect the rpm's by around 500- 600 rpm max

it's the golfer that provides the forces & torques with the swing motion which the shaft then helps to get out to the club head with the best club head to ball speed efficiency at impact - shaft not 'the engine'

one of the biggest plusses for a shaft that works with a particular swing motion is providing 'feel' plus having a shaft profile that again works with a particular swing motion to more reliably place the cg of the club head 'behind' the ball

my take is everyone should be looking to get a fitting preferably by a specialist fitter even better if that also happens to be a teaching pro - but it really has to be on a launch monitor to be able to get proper data 

folks should approach that fitting looking to swing whatever club with their 'stock' swing & not looking to swing straight out of their shoes searching for maximum distance 

- it's a ways more important to look to get the best all-round launch conditions - so strike pattern/launch angle/AoA/dynamic loft/spin rate plus/ball speed etc. & being able to get the cg behind the ball with control of face angle & path 
that's a ways more important than just looking as the greatest distance travelled
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is all well and good - but if I am trying to improve my swing then matching shaft to swing means I would have to keep changing the shaft. Nice trick then to hype up the value of the shaft.

Now if a pro said to me that the shaft I had on my driver is really one that will only suit ++ handicappers or pros - then I might change it. Or if I was told it was so old it was dead - or that it was of a design that even the cheaper modern shafts could better - then I might well change. Otherwise I view such things with a degree of hmmmm.
		
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must admit to being a tad puzzled here if you have taken from my above post that it's 'hyping the value of a shaft'

the first line in original post is speaking to the primary importance of a center strike in order to get the best out of any shaft so it's down the individual golfers swing motion & a shaft to a certain extent can help or hinder (with a driver the clubhead is a ways more important than the shaft but that wasn't the theme of the OP)

& that a center strike with different shafts (particularly again with a driver) can affect the spin rate by only 500/600 rpm max - that's not a large amount at all 
- & that's only at the approx max possible not an average many won't see that amount but again speaking to a center strike - not with a bunch of off center strikes

so the point was shafts can make a difference to spin rate but it's a marginal difference

always of foremost important is the individual swing motion itself & how that delivers the club to impact 
to that shafts specs can be of help to work at optimum harmony with transition & how the individual stresses or loads said shaft in downswing to impact 

- but any shaft won't be a 'cure all' in anyways to large issues with technical problems in a swing motion - but shafts can & do help with fine tuning launch conditions

the bigger difference shafts can make as said above in my post is to the 'feel' of someone swinging it - too heavy or too light or too stiff or kick points through the shaft profile being unsuitable to a particular swing motion will tend to give little confidence plus won't give help with the particular swing motion in getting the club head out to the ball in reasonable alignment at impact (again more relevant to a driver or 3 metal in particular but still applicable thru the bag)

majority of folks don't have any club fitting they buy off the shelf or online - better imo to get a fit

folks DNA of their individual swing patterns in terms of how they swing to stress a shaft with most players certainly club index players that doesn't change a bunch overtime as a generality once a physical maturity has been reached - it's not the effort or how the effort is put into the club so shaft that alters a whole bunch
 - it's more a lack of refined technique that then does not give a tight strike location pattern on the face with control of face angle & low point that causes the issues week to week with shot outcomes & scores that folks experience - so definitely no need to have to change a shaft from week to week that's a good ways off the point entirely

neither was I saying folks 'have' to change their shafts in any post


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## NorfolkShaun (Dec 6, 2017)

the_coach said:



			the bigger difference shafts can make as said above in my post is to the 'feel' of someone swinging it - too heavy or too light or too stiff or kick points through the shaft profile being unsuitable to a particular swing motion will tend to give little confidence plus won't give help with the particular swing motion in getting the club head out to the ball in reasonable alignment at impact (again more relevant to a driver or 3 metal in particular but still applicable thru the bag)

majority of folks don't have any club fitting they buy off the shelf or online - better imo to get a fit
		
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Out of interest, and I sincerely hope to not take this out of context.

Fine tuning and fitting makes more difference with different clubs?

With a driver the margin for error is much narrower than with a wedge. (or am i wrong) therefore a driver fitting may be more complex and important that a wedge fitting other than gapping.

I was (kind of) fitted for my wedges but shafts never came into it just selecting the brand, gaping, bounce, length and lie.

My driver is basically off the shelf and I just hit some different clubs to find one that worked.


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## the_coach (Dec 6, 2017)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Out of interest, and I sincerely hope to not take this out of context.

Fine tuning and fitting makes more difference with different clubs?

With a driver the margin for error is much narrower than with a wedge. (or am i wrong) therefore a driver fitting may be more complex and important that a wedge fitting other than gapping.

I was (kind of) fitted for my wedges but shafts never came into it just selecting the brand, gaping, bounce, length and lie.

My driver is basically off the shelf and I just hit some different clubs to find one that worked.
		
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overall it's better to be fitted for all clubs if folks have that choice open to them  - would be my take 

would say overall the more the individual game is tied to competition & results/scores the more it would pay to have a real comprehensive fitting - as opposed to hitting a few different clubs & just goin by feel & visible ball flight - in the end it's just a personal choice how far someone wants to delve into it - if folks tend to play mostly recreational social golf then a total comprehensive fit ain't maybes so important depends on the persons concerned viewpoint & how they see it

not exactly sure what you mean by 'with a driver the margin for error is much narrower than with a wedge' 
margin or error in relation to what ?

a fit for driver (metals/hybrids etc.) or irons or wedges are all just about producing the optimum launch conditions/ball data for whatever particular club with the individual swing motion - to do that to the best possible level it would need a fitting to get those launch conditions & ball data numbers quantified via launch monitor

are there different specialist wedge shafts ? - yep there's a certain range of options if you having clubs fitted by an independent specialist fitter or a pga pro that's not tied into just certain oem's

these specialist wedge shaft options may not be an option at every club outlet 

- but there is nowhere near as many wedge shaft options that you'd have for say a driver - or a 3 metal
same as the loft & grind & bounce are real important for any wedge - the head shape the loft & choice of/or not of tech head adjustments are important to the choice of a driver - got to be comfortable with the look & the feel of any club


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## shortgame (Dec 6, 2017)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This must be one of the poorest analogies I've ever heard. An engine supplies power. The "engine" in a golf swing is the bloke on the end of the club. The shaft is the transmission, if anything, and,  as the connection between the player & the ball, it is obviously very important.
		
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This. Well said


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## NorfolkShaun (Dec 6, 2017)

the_coach said:



			not exactly sure what you mean by 'with a driver the margin for error is much narrower than with a wedge' 
margin or error in relation to what ?
		
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Sorry for any confusion.

I feel that due to the driver head speed being faster than with a wedge, a poor strike will likely be much worse with a driver to a wedge and have a worse outcome. 

Therefore does a driver need more fine tuning in the fitting, hence the increased shaft / adjustability options. I feel this is how the marketing strikes me.

Would be interesting from marketing point of view, the cost of R&D, production and marketing to profit for various clubs.


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## the_coach (Dec 6, 2017)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Sorry for any confusion.

I feel that due to the driver head speed being faster than with a wedge, a poor strike will likely be much worse with a driver to a wedge and have a worse outcome. 

Therefore does a driver need more fine tuning in the fitting, hence the increased shaft / adjustability options. I feel this is how the marketing strikes me.

Would be interesting from marketing point of view, the cost of R&D, production and marketing to profit for various clubs.
		
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there's no problem just wanted to exactly get where you were coming from with the question

my take - for sure driver because of design/length/less loft/less spin rate the club head also moving faster is more difficult to control - start the ball offline plus any flight curvatures then some 250 out when the ball drops that will amount to some distance offline 

with the wedge & the greater lofts & greater spin rate produced plus shorter overall length with a slower chs there's potentially less can go wrong in terms of being offline a whole bunch if the player is sending it out 120
spine rate will restrict the amount the ball able to curve (off the face) along with the different head construction & then different cg placement (in relation to a driver)

also with a driver there's a tad more leeway under the regs with what the oem's can design & produce - plus there's the hoohah the glamor of the driver 
all of which means the oem's have more room with to push up the rrp to make more profit from a single club - all of which led to the shaft options growing also


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