# Is Racism Getting worse in the UK



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2019)

Over the last couple of weeks we have seen numerous incidents of racist abuse towards footballers abroad which was rightly condemned but a lot of people have said that before we start pointing fingers at other nations maybe we should start to look closer to home

For a while it seems that the racist abuse on football stands in the UK is either getting worse or being highlighted more - there was issues Salah had from the West Ham fans , a few Spurs and Chelsea issues and now it seems every weekend or every time there is a match day there are reports of abuse on the stands , abuse on social media

So is it getting worse or being highlighted more and the big question- what happens next ? Is it time for big punishments?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 8, 2019)

Like anything technology has highlighted that the problem has never gone away 

Publically some condemn racism whilst chanting it when they canâ€™t be seen..

Now cameras are everywhere we just pick up on it more


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 8, 2019)

It has always been there. It just seems to be the hot media topic of the moment aside from Brexit. That doesn't make it right and it needs dealing with (easier said than done) but I'm not convinced its any more prevalent than a decade or indeed the 80' when I watched football home and away and it was rife and ignored


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## pauljames87 (Apr 8, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It has always been there. It just seems to be the hot media topic of the moment aside from Brexit. That doesn't make it right and it needs dealing with (easier said than done) but I'm not convinced its any more prevalent than a decade or indeed the 80' when I watched football home and away and it was rife and ignored
		
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Some might say the hot topic has caused it to rise .. go home and all that


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## bluewolf (Apr 8, 2019)

I think the line has shifted relatively recently and people who wouldn't have said anything a few years ago are now getting a bit bolder.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 8, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Some might say the hot topic has caused it to rise .. go home and all that
		
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You may be right. Brexit has definitely added an element to it and we've already had some of our nurses being told "we won't have to be seen by you foreigners once we get British nurses in after Brexit". Hardly alarming at all is it?


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## bluewolf (Apr 8, 2019)

"And that Guv, is exactly when the thread went downhill. Someone mentioned the B word and it went down like a $5 hooker"


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## pauljames87 (Apr 8, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You may be right. Brexit has definitely added an element to it and we've already had some of our nurses being told "we won't have to be seen by you foreigners once we get British nurses in after Brexit". Hardly alarming at all is it?
		
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Instead you wonâ€™t be seen because of a nursing shortage would be my reply


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 8, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Instead you wonâ€™t be seen because of a nursing shortage would be my reply
		
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And my answer is why should our staff be subject to such comments. I come from South West London, but close enough to places like Tooting, Wandsworth and Brixton to see the issues of racisim in the 80's and the police behaviour that fuelled it. No surprise it was rife on the terraces. That was then though and as a multi cultural nation you'd hope society and the powers would have a better handle on it. It is still there every day but I don't know it's getting worse


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 8, 2019)

I've ticked no but that doesn't mean I think the situation is okay, I just don't think it is worse than when I was growing up in the 80's or 90's. I think the racists now have a platform on social media that didn't exist before so they sound louder. I believe there are fewer of them as more generations are coming through that don't have race hang ups.

In terms of football fans are now being called out for behaviour that was previously brushed over. A shout that would make people cringe but stewards ignored is now being picked up on and dealt with.

Incidents and arrests may well go up but that is a distortion because the problem is finally being dealt with. Police arrest results often have this issue. A chief constable decides to concentrate on a specific area of crime, arrests go up before they come down. You have to be patient to allow the good work to show.

I say this but I live in a part of the country that is not particularly multicultural, no unpleasant reason for that, so I accept my view could be out of touch.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2019)

It is on the increase, and that's right across Europe. You've only got to look at the rise of far right, nationalist parties throughout the EU to recognise there is a growing ground swell of support for those parties. Worryingly, there's a recent piece in one of the European papers about a proposed alliance of nationalist parties in the European Parliament in an effort to take control of that parliament from the centre-left.

Also the tone of it in the UK has changed considerably. In the 60's and 70's it was fuelled by ignorance. Hell, I can remember the toxic atmosphere created by Enoch Powell, and the race riots in the 60's. Education and legislation has seen some changes, e.g. you won't see a "Till death us do part," or "Rising damp," on TV anymore. Nowadays its also fuelled by anger, e.g. doctor's appointments and the 'cry' of if the country wasn't so crowded by immigrants.

And when you add the (almost) legitimising of targeting immigrants by politicians like Farage and Tommy Robinson, a culture of hatred prospers. The law is there to deal with racism, and it is dealt with harshly, but where are the resources to tackle it? The idiots are emboldened by an undercurrent of institutional support and the lack of resources to tackle it.

And if racism is an issue, lets not forget where anti-semitism fits into the jigsaw. It is also a form of racism.


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## TheDiablo (Apr 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Over the last couple of weeks we have seen numerous incidents of racist abuse towards footballers abroad which was rightly condemned but a lot of people have said that before we start pointing fingers at other nations maybe we should start to look closer to home

For a while it seems that the racist abuse on football stands in the UK is either getting worse or being highlighted more - there was issues Salah had from the West Ham fans , a few Spurs and Chelsea issues and now it seems every weekend or every time there is a match day there are reports of abuse on the stands , abuse on social media

So is it getting worse or being highlighted more and the big question- what happens next ? Is it time for big punishments?
		
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If you look to judge a nation by its football fans, nobody will come out well.


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## Kellfire (Apr 9, 2019)

The elephant in the room right now is obviously Brexit.

Whatever happens in terms of the logistics of leaving the EU, the likes of Farage and Robinson and concerted efforts to use social media to whip voters into a hate-filled frenzy has lead to an increase of blatant displays of racism with people now baying for blood in an attempt to overcome what they perceive as a lack of adherence to their democratic rights and an insult to their British sovereignty.

The lunatic right wing are using this chance to stir the pot and are seemingly being successful in getting more and more people to align themselves with notions that â€œwhite is rightâ€ and that we canâ€™t trust â€œimmigrantsâ€ because all they do is leech from our benefits system and form rape gangs that target white girls.

So yes - I do think itâ€™s getting worse and it wonâ€™t stop for a long time whilst we have the current political situation which is just fuel to an always simmering fire.


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## Neilds (Apr 9, 2019)

Not just racism, intolerance on the whole is on the rise. No one seems to be able to put forward a point of view on anything without someone jumping down their throat


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## Lyle77 (Apr 9, 2019)

In terms of football, it is nowhere near as rife as it was in the 1980s when you had the NF giving out leaflets at football matches in London (West Ham and Chelsea).  
You also had mass monkey chants directed at black players.  A match that particuarly stands out is John Barnes playing at Goodison where he backheeled a banana thrown at him off the pitch. The abuse he suffered that night was dreadful but shamefully by no means out of the ordinary for the time period.

Political rhetoric from some Brexiteers has certainly emboldened people to more open expressly views which could be deemed to be racist.


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## Scozzy (Apr 9, 2019)

Like pretty much most of the horrible human traits we are capable of, it's borne of ignorance and fear.Education can solve both but first you must want to learn....


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 9, 2019)

I think we have seen a rise in rascism, and more so since our politics took a very nationalistic tone. 
However you will not stop rascism all the time some groups are allowed to use words other groups would be done for rascist language.


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## howbow88 (Apr 9, 2019)

You can't have this conversation without talking about Brexit. What Farage, Johnson, Robinson, etc are doing is enabling people that were keeping their backward opinions to themselves, to spout them publicly.

Whether racism is on the rise or whether it's now just being highlighted far more than it was 5 years ago, is a good question.

And things have changed massively in a short space of time. I watch old episodes of The Bill on TV, and at the moment they're up to about 2002. Some of the 'banter' that is had on there about gay blokes would potentially result in dismissal these days, but even just 17 years ago it was all laughed about.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

In the last 3 years...â€¦...yes of course it has.
Pretty obvious to everyone I would have thought.
Thanks to the words and deeds of UKIP, EDL, ERG and the wrong halves of the two major political parties.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the last 3 years...â€¦...yes of course it has.
Pretty obvious to everyone I would have thought.
Thanks to the words and deeds of UKIP, EDL, ERG and the wrong halves of the two major political parties.
		
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And you don't think the SNP have  also contributed?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2019)

Unfortunately I think we live in a society where I won't claim racism is encouraged, but if you read some top selling papers and listen to some pretty mainstream politicians you can detect at the very least the undercurrent of intolerance and blaming of people from different cultures for societies woes. Everyone just seems so angry and looking for someone to blame. And that's not even including the more extreme press and politics that we have always had.  Yes there is a jump between that and straight out racism, but in that culture I would argue it legitimises some of those views of people holding more extreme racist views, and they may feel that society is more open to listening to their rhetoric. 

Also, just as most football fans seem to want to prove how much they love their team by the level of hatred towards their rivals, some in society seem to be moving more towards proving how much they love the UK by hating on foreigners. Where as it is perfectly possibly to love the UK and also be very tolerant of other cultures. I think social media has played its part as it is very easy to connect with people with similar views now and spread your message, good and bad.

But I think all is not lost, there is lots of good work going on in schools (sadly some times fighting a losing battle against what the kids hear at home but there you go) and some kids are growing up where race and indeed sexuality means little.  But we still have a long way to go.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2019)

howbow88 said:



			You can't have this conversation without talking about Brexit. What Farage, Johnson, Robinson, etc are doing is enabling people that were keeping their backward opinions to themselves, to spout them publicly.

Whether racism is on the rise or whether it's now just being highlighted far more than it was 5 years ago, is a good question.

And things have changed massively in a short space of time. I watch old episodes of The Bill on TV, and at the moment they're up to about 2002. Some of the 'banter' that is had on there about gay blokes would potentially result in dismissal these days, but even just 17 years ago it was all laughed about.
		
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You can add in old Casualty, Londons Burning etc and the intolerance and unacceptable behaviour in all the emergency services was rife as I'm sure it was in other walks of life. It has definitely improved in terms of the protection employees can get in work now and and report of racism or bullying is taken very seriously and investigated extensively. However does that really change what a person may say in the work place and what their real underlying feelings are? I think there is an increase in intolerance, race/culturally based but also people seeking to be offended at every level (snowflake) and looking for issues where frankly they don't exist. How that changes now the genie is out of the bottle I don't know and I don't know what society does as a whole to continue to eradicate racism


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You can add in old Casualty, Londons Burning etc and the intolerance and unacceptable behaviour in all the emergency services was rife as I'm sure it was in other walks of life. It has definitely improved in terms of the protection employees can get in work now and and report of racism or bullying is taken very seriously and investigated extensively. However does that really change what a person may say in the work place and what their real underlying feelings are? I think there is an increase in intolerance, race/culturally based *but also people seeking to be offended at every level (snowflake)* and looking for issues where frankly they don't exist. How that changes now the genie is out of the bottle I don't know and I don't know what society does as a whole to continue to eradicate racism
		
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Trouble is that that is all relative.  Yes some people do look to be offended, but 2 decades ago people who objected to the language used in Casualty, The Bill etc may well have been called whatever the version of snowflake was back then.  Where as nowadays their views held back then are relatively mainstream and accepted. So are some snowflakes in fact just early adopters of what will become mainstream views?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And you don't think the SNP have  also contributed?
		
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Of course not, we are talking of racism here.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course not, we are talking of racism here.
		
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But the SNP talk of serperatism, them and us, and other words and terms that all feed the undercurrent of alienation.
 Your anti English/Westminster rhetoric helps feed the justification of many to use rascist language against others not of the same skin tone, religion and the like.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But the SNP talk of serperatism, them and us, and other words and terms that all feed the undercurrent of alienation.
Your anti English/Westminster rhetoric helps feed the justification of many to use rascist language against others not of the same skin tone, religion and the like.
		
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Where as 'your' politicians do this.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nick-griffins-anti-immigration-black-men-kilts-tweet-backfires-1494972

BTW is England and Wales wanting to leave the EU  not seperatism and your anti EU rhetoric feed etc etc.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Where as 'your' English politicians do this.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nick-griffins-anti-immigration-black-men-kilts-tweet-backfires-1494972

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No one on here is defending muppet English politicians, Nick Griffin is long discredited and not an MP to be accurate here, he is just an unpleasant and discredited wind bag, but the anti English rhetoric of the SNP is tiring and does not help. It is a default approach and the language used is poor. They need to look at themselves and think before speaking more often.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Where as 'your' politicians do this.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nick-griffins-anti-immigration-black-men-kilts-tweet-backfires-1494972

BTW is England and Wales wanting to leave the EU  not seperatism and your anti EU rhetoric feed etc etc.
		
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Do you not think that your indie referendum carries some blame for the current situation? 
Btw, I'm not defending those idots and bigots you highlight.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But the SNP talk of serperatism, them and us, and other words and terms that all feed the undercurrent of alienation.
Your anti English/Westminster rhetoric helps feed the justification of many to use rascist language against others not of the same skin tone, religion and the like.
		
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i don't think England gets why Scotland is the way it is maybe, if they were ruled by governments they didn't vote for, had laws foisted on them that made the county poorer.

maybe then they would understand


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't think England gets why Scotland is the way it is maybe, if they were ruled by governments they didn't vote for, had laws foisted on them that made the county poorer.

maybe then they would understand

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We are a United Kingdom, are we not?  

I didn't really hear many English complaining about Scottish or Welsh MP's having a say over things affecting us before the first indie referendum, but now I do.


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## Crazyface (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			We are a United Kingdom, are we not?

I didn't really hear many English complaining about Scottish or Welsh MP's having a say over things affecting us before the first indie referendum, but now I do.
		
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All the time. The English are crazy. Lets give the other countries a Parliament but not have one ourselves.

Yes I realise I leave myself wide open here. But it's true.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			We are a United Kingdom, are we not? 

I didn't really hear many English complaining about Scottish or Welsh MP's having a say over things affecting us before the first indie referendum, but now I do.
		
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comparing a couple of years to 400, yep you are really hard done by


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Do you not think that your indie referendum carries some blame for the current situation?
Btw, I'm not defending those idots and bigots you highlight.

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No

May's government is currently being treated by the EU in the same way that Scotland is being treated by the UK government but they fail to see any difference.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			comparing a couple of years to 400, yep you are really hard done by

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Step 1, let go of history
Step 2, let go of history
Step 3.................
Step 4, get on with your lives in the present, it really is better for your health


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			All the time. The English are crazy. Lets give the other countries a Parliament but not have one ourselves.

Yes I realise I leave myself wide open here. But it's true.
		
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Totally agree with you.
Adapting Westminster to work as an 'English' Parliament was a totally idiotic thing to do.
It basically means no MP from NI, Wales and Scotland could ever become PM or  be appointed to any of the four main ministerial posts.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Step 1, let go of history
Step 2, let go of history
Step 3.................
Step 4, get on with your lives in the present, it really is better for your health
		
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but by saying that, you are just confirming you don't get it


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but by saying that, you are just confirming you don't get it
		
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Or you are just not willing to let it go. Keep living in the past or move on? 

I'm a big fan of not harbouring deep seated grudges going back generations, to before I was born, to before I was even a twinkle. Not a lot of good happens when people keep hanging on to the deep and distant past. Look forward, not back (I may or may not have pinched that from a mug )


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Or you are just not willing to let it go. Keep living in the past or move on?

I'm a big fan of not harbouring deep seated grudges going back generations, to before I was born, to before I was even a twinkle. Not a lot of good happens when people keep hanging on to the deep and distant past. Look forward, not back (I may or may not have pinched that from a mug )
		
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you don't have to look that far back, late 70 and 80 of MT not to mention the wealth and prosperity all down south.

its all very easy to say forget it its all in the past, live to the future... easier said than done.


SNP where a very small fringe party some 20 years ago, what does that tell you?


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			SNP where a very small fringe party some 20 years ago, what does that tell you?
		
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That the old adage about fooling all the people all the time is wrong?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you don't have to look that far back, late 70 and 80 of MT not to mention the wealth and prosperity all down south.

its all very easy to say forget it its all in the past, live to the future... easier said than done.


SNP where a very small fringe party some 20 years ago, what does that tell you?
		
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The wealth and prosperity of the south of England stands out against the north of England, the Midlands as well as Wales and Scotland. The south, or more accurately the SE of England is the engine room of the UK. It gets disproportionate amounts of money but it also creates a great deal. Scotland is not alone in feeling left out of wealth creation.

With regards to the SNP, they have been very smart and their narrow focus, Scotland and nowhere else, means they can target voters far more clearly. Labour and the Cons were too late in recognising the danger of the SNP, also late in devolving themselves from their London bases. They are also hamstrung in that they have to please people in all parts of the country and that means money being spent in Cardiff rather than Ayr, Norwich rather than Dundee (I'm making up these examples by the way) whereas the SNP only have to talk about spending choices within Scotland. The bogeyman is always going to be Westminster, it is an easy and lazy target but the SNP have hit it well and relentlessly. In effect they have played the political game very well.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That the old adage about fooling all the people all the time is wrong?
		
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you are just showing the English arrogance towards Scotland that is part of the reason for the rise in the SNP. 

how do you explain they went from 5 MP in 2001 to over 50 a few years later and overturning labours dominance to take power in Scotland?


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## IanM (Apr 9, 2019)

As a bloke who stood on footy terraces in the 80s, I thought things had improved massively, maybe I was wrong, or maybe it has made a return. It does seem that many of those "at it" are the same folk, now in their 50s back to their old habits................... Social Media has given them a new outlet... 

It needs stamping on, pronto.  Tech has moved on suffiently to identify people, so start jailing them.  

The scope of racism is a funny one.... I worked in Glasgow 20 years ago.  Most people were the warmest, friendliest folk I've ever met.  BUT, there were some places it wasnt safe to go with my Surrey-Accent.  I've lived in Wales for 10 years.  Ditto.  Some of the crap I hear now would not be acceptable if the word "English" was replaced with the word "black."  

That doesnt count apparently.  

I've worked in several countries which are far worse than in the UK.  I cannot believe some of the stuff I saw/heard  in France, Germany and Switzerland.  

So, idiots of all hues are at large.  They need stopping.


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## IanM (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you are just showing the English arrogance towards Scotland that is part of the reason for the rise in the SNP.

how do you explain they went from 5 MP in 2001 to over 50 a few years later and overturning labours dominance to take power in Scotland?
		
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I think that says as much about the Labour Party's change in direction since Blair!


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The wealth and prosperity of the south of England stands out against the north of England, the Midlands as well as Wales and Scotland. The south, or more accurately the SE of England is the engine room of the UK. It gets disproportionate amounts of money but it also creates a great deal. Scotland is not alone in feeling left out of wealth creation.

With regards to the SNP, they have been very smart and their narrow focus, Scotland and nowhere else, means they can target voters far more clearly. Labour and the Cons were too late in recognising the danger of the SNP, also late in devolving themselves from their London bases. They are also hamstrung in that they have to please people in all parts of the country and that means money being spent in Cardiff rather than Ayr, Norwich rather than Dundee (I'm making up these examples by the way) whereas the SNP only have to talk about spending choices within Scotland. The bogeyman is always going to be Westminster, it is an easy and lazy target but the SNP have hit it well and relentlessly. In effect they have played the political game very well.
		
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all true,  its not so long ago that Scotland had no conservative MP and all but still ended up with a conservative Gov and laws passed down without any thought for the outcome.. like the Poll Tax.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 9, 2019)

well how the hell did a thread about racism turn into it England vs Scotland politics ?! Oh Doon posted - that explains it


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That the old adage about fooling all the people all the time is wrong?
		
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Not like you to be so arrogant, can you raise three separate points where do you think that SNP voters have been made to look like fools.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			well how the hell did a thread about racism turn into it England vs Scotland politics ?! Oh Doon posted - that explains it
		
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he didn't mention Scotland just right wing s of some of the political parties, someone  else brought Scotland and the SNP into it


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			well how the hell did a thread about racism turn into it England vs Scotland politics ?! Oh Doon posted - that explains it
		
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No mention of Scotland until a poster implied that the SNP were a racist organisation old boy.
But I don't suppose you noticed that.


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not like you to be so arrogant, can you raise three separate points where do you think that SNP voters have been made to look like fools.
		
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It was a lighthearted attempt at humour. I made the clear mistake of assuming that a smilie wasn't needed. I definitely forgot that there are things you just cannot joke about on here.  ðŸ˜‡


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It was a lighthearted attempt at humour. I made the clear mistake of assuming that a smilie wasn't needed. I definitely forgot that there are things you just cannot joke about on here.  ðŸ˜‡
		
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No problem, It was so unlike your usual posts which I really enjoy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

Inevitably the problem with this thread and the question it poses is around just how many of us are qualified to answer. 

I would imagine the forum's membership is likely to reflect golf's own demographic.

Just  how many  of us from different races, NOT nationalities?

We aren't going to appreciate the level or effect of racism in the country if we are merely observers.


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## IanM (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			We aren't going to appreciate the level or effect of racism in the country if we are merely observers.
		
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Spot on... although observing it gives some awareness of it.  

I was subjected to some pretty awful stuff at school based on religion.  Teachers laughed and joined in (it was the late 70s!) Now I'm pretty sure that wouldnt happen.  

But the undertones of stuff is still there.  In my experience, it happens everywhere from most cultures to some extent. 

In this country we may have become complacent, especially as we see some worse behaviour overseas.... therin lies the danger.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And you don't think the SNP have  also contributed?
		
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Abso-flippin-lutely!!

I've loved my times in East Lothian and Edinburgh, visiting many, many times and would happily visit again. Thoroughly enjoyed the vibrancy of Glasgow. But to quote my nephew, who's Glasgow born and bred, "you can take the Northeast of Scotland and stuff it." Truthfully, that's a bit harsh as we made some great friends up in Aberdeen, some of which are coming out here this year, but there are some real hard nosed racists up there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 9, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....nd-against-alleged-racist-abuse-1-9698951/amp

Team gets racial abuse from stand so they walk off -fined Â£165

Team whose fans were abusing players - fined Â£160


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## KenL (Apr 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you are just showing the English arrogance towards Scotland that is part of the reason for the rise in the SNP.

how do you explain they went from 5 MP in 2001 to over 50 a few years later and overturning labours dominance to take power in Scotland?
		
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Are you serious?  All I see is small minded nationalists getting their knickers in a twist about how Scotland is ruled by England.

Scottish people do not know how lucky they are.  Compared to England there is free bus travel anywhere in the country for wealthy 60 year olds, free prescriptions, free university education except if you are from England, Wales or NI.  No problem if you are from Eire or anywhere else in the EU.

All of these benefits could not be afforded in an independent Scotland.

Only downside is higher taxes imposed by SNP that is not the case elsewhere.  This is not just for the "rich" as you only need to earn about 28k to feel the hit imposed by the SNP.

Back to racism in the UK.  I think things are not really any better than they used to be.  Many of the older generation are still racist even if they don't know it.  Football brings out unacceptable behaviour in some.  As does other political events like Brexit and terrorism.


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## Orikoru (Apr 9, 2019)

Racism was always there, but it seems people are becoming more brazen about it. There's no doubt Brexit had an impact on that. All the close-minded racists saw winning the vote as justification that Britain hates foreigners and they can now say what they like. Reports of abuse against Polish people and the like went up. The Daily Mail and The Sun saw it as the perfect cloak to launch their right-wing agendas louder than ever as well. It's as if people have _become_ more racist. They've just jumped on the right-wing Brexit bandwagon as a means to project it more.


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## IanM (Apr 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Racism was always there, but it seems people are becoming more brazen about it. There's no doubt Brexit had an impact on that.
		
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Daft, although I conceed there must be some folk at the margins who saw that as a opening.... equally, the numbers of idiots who proclaim the UK being self governing is racist, or our flag is racist or Poppies are racist are doing a great job of distracting the focus from the terminally stupid who distcrimate based on colour, religion or country of origin.

I am working somewhere currently who have just launched a new management development programme.  But to get on it you have to demonstrate which minority you are from.  Nice bit of tokenism, and another box ticked.  Will fix nothing. 

The law to punish offenders exists, just needs properly enforcing and some consitency of approach.   

Plenty of CCTV at footy grounds, stick a few gobbies in the nick for a few months, will soon put them off.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And you don't think the SNP have  also contributed?
		
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The clue is in the N


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

KenL said:



			Are you serious?  All I see is small minded nationalists getting their knickers in a twist about how Scotland is ruled by England.

Scottish people do not know how lucky they are.  Compared to England there is free bus travel anywhere in the country for wealthy 60 year olds, free prescriptions, free university education except if you are from England, Wales or NI.  No problem if you are from Eire or anywhere else in the EU.

All of these benefits could not be afforded in an independent Scotland.

Only downside is higher taxes imposed by SNP that is not the case elsewhere.  This is not just for the "rich" as you only need to earn about 28k to feel the hit imposed by the SNP.

Back to racism in the UK.  I think things are not really any better than they used to be.  Many of the older generation are still racist even if they don't know it.  Football brings out unacceptable behaviour in some.  As does other political events like Brexit and terrorism.
		
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I think you have confused the Â£28k figure with the average wage in Scotland [surprisingly not much different to England]
The tax figure you were looking for where you then pay marginally more tax is Â£33k.
I shall let you work our the winners and losers.
That figure does not of course contain the benefits re education health and transport you mentioned ,To some taxpayers this can amount to a tidy sum.
We obviously could not afford to pay for free University education for the rUK students for the simple reason we would be swamped with applicants.
Same reason that English hospitals are not treating Welsh patients who live near to their border.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you have confused the Â£28k figure with the average wage in Scotland [surprisingly not much different to England]
The tax figure you were looking for where you then pay marginally more tax is Â£33k.
I shall let you work our the winners and losers.
That figure does not of course contain the benefits re education health and transport you mentioned ,To some taxpayers this can amount to a tidy sum.
We obviously could not afford to pay for free University education for the rUK students for the simple reason we would be swamped with applicants.
Same reason that English hospitals are not treating Welsh patients who live near to their border.
		
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I believe it was only one English county stopping treatment in their hospitals which is Cheshire.

Weren't all other EU students outside of the RUK being offered free university places?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2019)

Back in 2014 (long before brexit was even a twinkle in Cameronâ€™s eyes) me and my now brother in law went to see England vs Denmark at Wembley

Some drunk moron in front had a go at a nice Spanish gentleman next to me... (who had been talking to his mate in Spanish) â€œwhat languish is that? We talk English here, who you supporting?!â€ England was his reply .. â€œgood donâ€™t let me hear that rubbish againâ€

Long before London became a walking knife centre so I did tell him to pipe down or he could spend the rest of the match watching through one eye. Mod edit


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## IainP (Apr 9, 2019)

The moron comment seems apt, and good on you for demonstrating we are not all like that.
Your last comment is where it can become complex. Wouldn't they have been the same race? (Various definitions and interpretations exist)


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2019)

IainP said:



			The moron comment seems apt, and good on you for demonstrating we are not all like that.
Your last comment is where it can become complex. Wouldn't they have been the same race? (Various definitions and interpretations exist)
		
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Xenophobic then? Lol


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## IainP (Apr 9, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Xenophobic then? Lol
		
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Yeah ðŸ‘ðŸ™‚
Are you starting a new poll ðŸ˜‰


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2019)

IainP said:



			Yeah ðŸ‘ðŸ™‚
Are you starting a new poll ðŸ˜‰
		
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We must accept the decision of this vote im afraid ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2019)

I think racism towards black people is considerably less than it was in the past (50/40/30 years ago.  There does seem to be a degree of racial hatred between people of ethnic origins, some of them seem to detest each other.  Eastern Europeans are very intolerant of non white people, I dread to think what it must be like for these people to live in countries like Hungary, Poland etc, I guess they dont though as they are not welcome there.

I read a lot here of Nigel Farage being an arch racist but I have to say I never get that opinion when I hear him talk, it seems that many equivicalise waning to control immigration with out and out racism.  And I do remember his picture with the long row of illegal immigrants coming to Europe but I think the point was that we couldn't allow an unlimited amount of people to do this, not that they should be exterminated. 

Racism exists to some degree in Europe, China, Asia and everywhere, it would be naive to think it could be eliminated but from what I can see its improveing here.


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2019)

We are far more tolerant and understanding than many countries in the free world, however this should not allow us to be complacent due to the rise of both the far right and left organisations popping up.

I was surprised this weekend by the lack of action by stewards at a match I was at this Saturday. When I mentioned it to the local bobby outside later, he just shrugged and said it would course to much trouble in certain sections if action was taken. Unbelievable really. A large minority of football "fans" seem to leave their brains and decent vocabulary at home.


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## Orikoru (Apr 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Daft, although I conceed there must be some folk at the margins who saw that as a opening.... equally, the numbers of idiots who proclaim the UK being self governing is racist, or our flag is racist or Poppies are racist are doing a great job of distracting the focus from the terminally stupid who distcrimate based on colour, religion or country of origin.

*I am working somewhere currently who have just launched a new management development programme.  But to get on it you have to demonstrate which minority you are from.  Nice bit of tokenism, and another box ticked.  Will fix nothing.*

The law to punish offenders exists, just needs properly enforcing and some consitency of approach.  

Plenty of CCTV at footy grounds, stick a few gobbies in the nick for a few months, will soon put them off.
		
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Completely agree with the bold part, I hate that. Black managers in football is one that people always bring up, why are there not enough, etc. Maybe they're just no good? People advocate making it compulsory to interview one person of colour for each role that comes up, but how would someone feel being given an interview when they know they are underqualified and have only been chosen because they tick a box, as you put it? Alternatively, a person of colour who is qualified may still be wondering if they've only been called upon to tick that box rather than on merit. I think it's all wrong to go down that route.


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## cookelad (Apr 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think racism towards black people is considerably less than it was in the past (50/40/30 years ago.  There does seem to be a degree of racial hatred between people of ethnic origins, some of them seem to detest each other.  Eastern Europeans are very intolerant of non white people, I dread to think what it must be like for these people to live in countries like Hungary, Poland etc, I guess they dont though as they are not welcome there.
		
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I'm in, what I'm told is, the most tolerant city in Poland and we're slowly seeing more and more diversity, nothing like the levels we used to see in SE London. My friend, Cuban but visually he's white, was on the receiving end while waiting on the platform at the main train station but apparently the police were great and even hinted at the correct responses he should give for maximum response, and I've heard stories of people hearing comments in Zabka but not amounting to anything. 

I've not experienced anything, but most people don't realise I'm not Polish till I open my mouth.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2019)

A few years ago there was a superb Scottish public service advert about refugees/immigrants in Scotland.

It showed an immigrant walking around Glasgow and the narrator was saying how he was being treated, things like

 'If I keep my head down and work hard and I think I will be welcomed into this community'
 'The locals are a bit wary of me but seem quite friendly'
' There is certainly lots of opportunity here for me to do well'

The film then turned to the narrator who explained that the immigrant was a Syrian refugee but the words he spoke came from a letter home from a young Scots immigrant to Canada in the 19th century


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'If I keep my head down and work hard and I think I will be welcomed into this community'
		
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Wise words, everyone is a refugee from somewhere.....

Bu, I wonder why objections to contrary behaviour are so frowned upon?


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## DRW (Apr 10, 2019)

I think people will always pick on others that are different or do not fit into their perceived 'group'. Whatever that group or different is, in this context you are looking or label it racism.

You see this from children, to youths, to adults to OAPs. The picking on as you are different is always there and always will be.


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## KenL (Apr 10, 2019)

DRW said:



			I think people will always pick on others that are different or do not fit into their perceived 'group'. Whatever that group or different is, in this context you are looking or label it racism.

You see this from children, to youths, to adults to OAPs. The picking on as you are different is always there and always will be.
		
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If that is true it is wrong and should not be tolerated or accepted.


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## Backache (Apr 10, 2019)

Personally my feeling is that overt racism is far less widespread than it was when I was young and people are generally less racist than they used to be . However recently the smaller minority of people who are racist do seem to be emboldened to express themselves more volubly and possibly more aggressively than in recent years.

On the totally non racial subject of Scottish university fees the reason why they are free to other places in the EU but not the rUK it is becuase the EU rules say so and not deliberately anti English pro EU policy by the Scottish Government, who would love to raise a bit more money if they could from EU students.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 10, 2019)

Backache said:



			Personally my feeling is that overt racism is far less widespread than it was when I was young and people are generally less racist than they used to be . However recently the smaller minority of people who are racist do seem to be emboldened to express themselves more volubly and possibly more aggressively than in recent years.

On the totally non racial subject of Scottish university fees the reason why they are free to other places in the EU but not the rUK it is becuase the EU rules say so and not deliberately anti English pro EU policy by the Scottish Government, who would love to raise a bit more money if they could from EU students.
		
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From a family connection point of view I can, unfortunately,  confirm that racism is still fairly common in the UK.

Maybe slightly more subtle than in earlier times but still out there.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2019)

Japan is the most racist country I have worked in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Japan is the most racist country I have worked in.
		
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I don't know a great deal about Japan.  How does it manifest itself there? Is it everyone except Japanese people or is it colour related?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 10, 2019)

I have found most of the East European subbies we employ to be extremely racist, especially against people of the Muslim faith, personally I donâ€™t think itâ€™s getting worse but as was posted earlier â€œhow would I know?â€

I donâ€™t think the race relation â€œindustryâ€ (poor choice or descriptor I know!)  helps itself with things like this...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...-chocolate-ducklings-after-criticism-11688611







Digital Blackface ffs!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know a great deal about Japan.  How does it manifest itself there? Is it everyone except Japanese people or is it colour related?
		
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They dont make other races welcome, you just dont see other cultires there.


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## user2010 (Apr 12, 2019)

To paraphrase Johnny Rotten circa 1976
"Did someone say a rude word?"


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2019)

I donâ€™t think itâ€™s worse, but itâ€™s getting there, itâ€™s just more accessible now to see and watch through the many tv channels and social media outlets we have. 

Itâ€™s always been there to a degree, and I personally think it was openly and directly worse in the 70â€™s & 80â€™s in a more public domain, but then we had comedy aimed at it that softened it by laughing at it, but thatâ€™s been suppressed now by the tree-hugging over sensitive snowflake brigade. 

People constantly go on about and point the finger at or label things far right and racist at the slightest objection to something that involves an immigrant or anyone not white, when in fact, imo, I think the left is worse and is growing in its numbers of incidents at marchâ€™s and protests and are constantly involved in deliberate and planned acts of violence, but they donâ€™t get the press coverage and condemnation they deserve, it just doesnâ€™t fit into the main news channels narrative, so that fuels the fires also! 

Our main stream news is gagged, massively, the serious violence in our country (and others) has increased, weâ€™re soft in our judicial system and so anyone coming to our country has no fear, most, not all, are from countries that theyâ€™ve seen or been party to heinous crimes, so weâ€™re just lambs amongst packs of wolves who care and fear nothing, so much for integration, thereâ€™s areas in my city I wouldnâ€™t drive through in the middle of the day never mind at night, car jacking, public robberies, rapes and mindless attacks are daily local news headlines, and theyâ€™re not committed by Terry Jones or Brian Smith of........

I donâ€™t care how you take this, but there is, IMO, I direct link between the mass illegal migrants that have entered and general immigration this country has endured over the years and the increase in law & order offences, mostly on the more serious side, and when that is seen publicised and when it can be seen to being gagged by the news, is it no wonder that people will show their objection to said people, which in turn then gets classed as racist! 

I think there is a feeling of inverted racism, where youâ€™re almost felt to feel like a second class citizen in your own country, and the more that feeling is allowed to grow, the worse it will become.


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

Wow^^ not sure where to startðŸ˜±
Just a couple of things, comedy didnâ€™t soften racism, it legitimised it. I give you Bernard manning & jim Davidson. 

I donâ€™t know anyone called terry jones or Brian Smith, but Iâ€™m pretty sure their demographic is quite capable of committing those acts indicated. Just as much as any other demographic


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2019)

@Fish .  Do you have any data on an actual increase in serious crimes due to immigration or is this just your gut feeling?


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

KenL said:



@Fish .  Do you have any data on an actual increase in serious crimes due to immigration or is this just your gut feeling?
		
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There is no link. Data proves otherwise


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2019)

therod said:



			There is no link. Data proves otherwise
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46984559

I question your resource. 

Violent crime rose by 19% on last year.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2019)

Fish said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46984559

I question your resource.

Violent crime rose by 19% on last year.
		
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Violent crime may have risen but i dont see any direct link with immigration.

Perhaps the massive underfunding and too few officers is the reason?


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2019)

KenL said:



			Violent crime may have risen but i dont see any direct link with immigration.

Perhaps the massive underfunding and too few officers is the reason?
		
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Thats rubbish, I was at Stamford Bridge for a European match last month, police everywhere, walking and driving down North End Road, but a young man still got stabbed in the afternoon and died with all that police presence around, itâ€™s a lame excuse and easy finger pointing target, when the truth is, we live in a lawless society where our laws and judicial service presents no fear or deterrent.


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

Fish said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46984559

I question your resource.

Violent crime rose by 19% on last year.
		
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Yes it did, but a one year increase doesnâ€™t prove anything, it could be a statistical anomaly. The general trend is down. Also the above is not demographic specific.
 I will paraphrase but statistically violent crime & crime against property (except car crime) is no different in areas that have been subject to large immigration events now vs the period pre immigration. This is true for Eastern European, south Asian and Afro Caribbean. 
Specifically knife crime is not limited to one specific demographic contrary to what you may read in the paper. 
The commonality between community and crime is economic not racial demographic. 
Do I think some communities could integrate more, yes maybe, but thatâ€™s a separate conversation.


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

I donâ€™t wanna be all googlephil but 

https://www.ukdataservice.ac.uk/media/604220/ignatans.pdf
On a separate point, the trend for violent crime is decreasing, you are more far likely to be a victim of fraud, what arenâ€™t we raging against bent accountants? ...but knife crime is on the increase. So you could argue the severity of the violence is worse.
Austerity would be a common theme if we are looking for one


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2019)

Fish said:



			Thats rubbish, .........., when the truth is, we live in a lawless society where our laws and judicial service presents no fear or deterrent.
		
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The USA has a much more penal system than we do with much longer sentencing but it is clear that it is not a deterrent to crime there.

The knife crime in parts of the UK is a serious problem but this is a social thing and somebody needs to do more to work with the groups of mainly young people this is taking over.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 13, 2019)

In my opinion itâ€™s getting worse in completely the reverse nature to the traditional view.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			In my opinion itâ€™s getting worse in completely the reverse nature to the traditional view.
		
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I don't understand what you mean.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2019)

If the numbers of police were doubled it would make no difference to knife crime. A policeman could never be expected to be at the scene of a crime such that they could prevent it, these crimes are comitted by people that are prepared to carry knives and use them, the only way to deter is by suitable punishment and that's harsh punishment, sending them on tree hugging courses won't change anything.

Its also no good burying heads in the sand when looking at who is carrying out these knife crimes, we all know its mainly young people from ethnic backgrounds. I understand the argument that says the reason for this is the way these people do not have the same chances in life but I have to disagree with that, they have the same educational oppertunities as most other people who dont get involved in gangs and drug dealing, its a lifestyle choice and needs a no tolerance policy supported by politicians, police and communities together.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2019)

KenL said:



			The USA has a much more penal system than we do with much longer sentencing but it is clear that it is not a deterrent to crime there.

The knife crime in parts of the UK is a serious problem but this is a social thing and somebody needs to do more to work with the groups of mainly young people this is taking over.
		
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What work needs doing and who should do it,  what is the 'social thing'


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 13, 2019)

So on a thread about racism fingers are being pointed at immigration and also people from ethnic backgrounds , also blaming the left. Seems people want to shift the blame onto the people who are the subject of the increasing racism in this country - reads a bit like â€œwe are racist against you because itâ€™s your fault â€œ

A good number finding the excuses


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If the numbers of police were doubled it would make no difference to knife crime. A policeman could never be expected to be at the scene of a crime such that they could prevent it, these crimes are comitted by people that are prepared to carry knives and use them, the only way to deter is by suitable punishment and that's harsh punishment, sending them on tree hugging courses won't change anything.

Its also no good burying heads in the sand when looking at who is carrying out these knife crimes, we all know its mainly young people from ethnic backgrounds. I understand the argument that says the reason for this is the way these people do not have the same chances in life but I have to disagree with that, they have the same educational oppertunities as most other people who dont get involved in gangs and drug dealing, its a lifestyle choice and needs a no tolerance policy supported by politicians, police and communities together.
		
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Donâ€™t disagree with most of this, but itâ€™s not connected to ethnic background. Itâ€™s connected to economic demographic. Donâ€™t believe me google Akala for a well rounded description. 
Compare knife crime in Glasgow in the mid 2000s to London now. The trend is similar.
There are certain common themes in both communities with this knife problem, race isnâ€™t one of them. 
Dissaffected young men from lower socio economic group have a higher propensity for crime & violence vs the general population irrespective of race. Not excusing it, but the explanation isnâ€™t an easy label


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2019)

Is racism getting worse, no I reckon itâ€™s always been there, just been less acceptable over the last 20 years. Recent events, Muslim extremism, recent  moral panic over knife crime has all let to a lowering of the social barriers to vocalising these views


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2019)

Plus it gets reported more often...and quicker.
And, sometimes, a "conflict" between 2 sides is immediately branded racist when it isn't.
A mate of mine lives in a row of houses all owned by the same bloke.
A family moved into one and, quite frankly, they were dirty,smelly, loud and generally anti-social. One of the kids even hopped over a fence into another garden and took a dump.
The other residents complained to the landlord and got them evicted.
A couple of days after they left, cars and front doors were spray painted with "Racists".
The fact that the family was from Rumania is inconsequential.
They were dirty, smelly, loud and anti-social. 
Race had nothing to do with it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If the numbers of police were doubled it would make no difference to knife crime. A policeman could never be expected to be at the scene of a crime such that they could prevent it, these crimes are comitted by people that are prepared to carry knives and use them, the only way to deter is by suitable punishment and that's harsh punishment, sending them on tree hugging courses won't change anything.

Its also no good burying heads in the sand when looking at who is carrying out these knife crimes, we all know its mainly young people from ethnic backgrounds. I understand the argument that says the reason for this is the way these people do not have the same chances in life but I have to disagree with that, they have the same educational oppertunities as most other people who dont get involved in gangs and drug dealing, its a lifestyle choice and needs a no tolerance policy supported by politicians, police and communities together.
		
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Of it would make a difference to knife crime if Police numbers were doubled, all crime would be reduced!
Do you think knife crime is not connected to any other crimes or social behaviour?
Time after time after time it has been proved harsher and longer sentences do not solve the problem.
As for the education and lifestyle choice, you really need to take your head out of the sand or copy your post to the Daily Mail were you get lots of praise and nodding of heads!


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What work needs doing and who should do it,  what is the 'social thing'
		
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Joining a gang is a choice people make to fit in, for protection, or for fear of reprisals.

Huge progress has been made in Glasgow by community police officers really working hard to connect with youngsters.

The met have shown an interest in their work.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Of it would make a difference to knife crime if Police numbers were doubled, all crime would be reduced!
Do you think knife crime is not connected to any other crimes or social behaviour?
Time after time after time it has been proved harsher and longer sentences do not solve the problem.
*As for the education and lifestyle choice, you really need to take your head out of the sand or copy your post to the Daily Mail were you get lots of praise and nodding of heads*!
		
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you start making a reasoned reply and then revert to a silly insult.  I get it if you disagree with me but the highlighted is unnecessary.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			you start making a reasoned reply and then revert to a silly insult.  I get it if you disagree with me but the highlighted is unnecessary.
		
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Probably because your post is insulting imo.
Find it hilarious you keep harping on about being insulted while calling people snowflakes on here in the past!


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Of it would make a difference to knife crime if Police numbers were doubled, all crime would be reduced!
Do you think knife crime is not connected to any other crimes or social behaviour?
*Time after time after time it has been proved harsher and longer sentences do not solve the problem.*
As for the education and lifestyle choice, you really need to take your head out of the sand or copy your post to the Daily Mail were you get lots of praise and nodding of heads!
		
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Ref the highlighted bit, I'd say you're wrong in certain aspects. 

From the government's own website, not the Tories but the governments. Prison sentences serve 3 purposes, and in the order they appear on the website; 1) they protect the public from offenders, 2) they punish the offenders, 3) they rehabilitate the offenders.

Obviously, a criminal off the streets protects the public, and if they are off the streets for a longer period they protect the public longer. That satisfies point one of the government's aims. The punishing of the offender is satisfied to a degree by removing the offender's freedom. Point 3, rehabilitation is more on a individual by individual basis. Different strokes will work for different folks but a bit of anecdotal evidence from a leading criminal barrister based on reoffending rates - for a violent offender, a term of less than 5 years sees the offender leave prison just as angry as when they went in and more likely to reoffend.

I'd say the current move to reduce sentences, i.e. not give custodial sentences of less then 6 months, for all the outcry, might not be a bad idea for certain crimes. However, where the crime is a violent one I'd argue for tougher sentences.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ref the highlighted bit, I'd say you're wrong in certain aspects.

From the government's own website, not the Tories but the governments. Prison sentences serve 3 purposes, and in the order they appear on the website; 1) they protect the public from offenders, 2) they punish the offenders, 3) they rehabilitate the offenders.

Obviously, a criminal off the streets protects the public, and if they are off the streets for a longer period they protect the public longer. That satisfies point one of the government's aims. The punishing of the offender is satisfied to a degree by removing the offender's freedom. Point 3, rehabilitation is more on a individual by individual basis. Different strokes will work for different folks but a bit of anecdotal evidence from a leading criminal barrister based on reoffending rates - for a violent offender, a term of less than 5 years sees the offender leave prison just as angry as when they went in and more likely to reoffend.

I'd say the current move to reduce sentences, i.e. not give custodial sentences of less then 6 months, for all the outcry, might not be a bad idea for certain crimes. However, where the crime is a violent one I'd argue for tougher sentences.
		
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Like everything though Bri, some systems work for some and not for others, so simply increasing the sentences will not cure all, it has to be done in conjunction with the Prison Service being correctly funded so they man it properly, resource it properly etc, simple locking people up on its own doesnâ€™t work.
As for tougher sentences, Iâ€™m all for the death penalty for certain types of murder (Pedos, terrorists).


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Like everything though Bri, some systems work for some and not for others, so simply increasing the sentences will not cure all, it has to be done in conjunction with the Prison Service being correctly funded so they man it properly, resource it properly etc, simple locking people up on its own doesnâ€™t work.
As for tougher sentences, Iâ€™m all for the death penalty for certain types of murder (Pedos, terrorists).
		
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The funding of the service has nothing to do with is the sentence right for the crime. But you'd hope that that would be determined at sentencing time by the judge based on court report, previous and sentencing guidelines. 

Giving someone a shorter sentence because there isn't room at the inn defeats the objective of protecting the public. And if its that short it doesn't feel like punishment it hasn't worked. And the more serious the crime, the more work on rehabilitation needs to be done, which equals more jail time.

I agree that the funding and resources have to be right to achieve the goals, no pun intended, but I do have concerns that the drive towards shorter sentences is more to do with a lack of resources rather than what is right for both the public and for the criminal. I also feel that the liberal left is losing sight of protecting the public for the sake of the only goal being rehabilitation. The aim has to be to satisfy the 3 points in the govt's own criteria, protect, punish and rehabilitate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The funding of the service has nothing to do with is the sentence right for the crime. But you'd hope that that would be determined at sentencing time by the judge based on court report, previous and sentencing guidelines.

Giving someone a shorter sentence because there isn't room at the inn defeats the objective of protecting the public. And if its that short it doesn't feel like punishment it hasn't worked. And the more serious the crime, the more work on rehabilitation needs to be done, which equals more jail time.

I agree that the funding and resources have to be right to achieve the goals, no pun intended, but I do have concerns that the drive towards shorter sentences is more to do with a lack of resources rather than what is right for both the public and for the criminal. I also feel that the liberal left is losing sight of protecting the public for the sake of the only goal being rehabilitation. The aim has to be to satisfy the 3 points in the govt's own criteria, protect, punish and rehabilitate.
		
Click to expand...

I havenâ€™t said Iâ€™d like or support shorter sentences, what I was saying, but maybe not eloquently enough that simply locking them up and throwing away the key doesnâ€™t work either.
Like you say it has to be a 3 pronged attack, but we also need to look at social priorities, funding for all criminal agencies to be correct and get the punishment to fit the crime, we see the Police doing everything they can and then here the horror stories about the CPS or Judiciary letting them and us down etc.

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/04/05/video-rare-truth-on-bbc-question-time-went-super-viral/


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably because your post is insulting imo.
Find it hilarious you keep harping on about being insulted while calling people snowflakes on here in the past!
		
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Why cant you just keep the discussion to the subject in hand. If i start insulting you because i disagree with your view or something you posted in the past it would lead to a petty squabble.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 14, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ll-parks-premier-league-special-investigation


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## gmc40 (Apr 14, 2019)

Fish said:



			theyâ€™re not committed by Terry Jones or Brian Smith of........
		
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Maybe not where youâ€™re from but there are plenty of â€œTerryâ€™sâ€ and â€œBrianâ€™sâ€ (I assume you mean white males?) carrying out those types of crime elsewhere in the country.

I havenâ€™t quoted the rest of your post because itâ€™s not worthy of a response.


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