# Matchplay and medal



## jamielaing (Apr 30, 2015)

I have my handicap matchplay tie on Sunday, same day as the medal. The guy I am playing is the same handicap as me and has done well in matchplay comps before.

It is also the medal on the same day and he wants to enter the medal and play both simultaneously.

Is this something you would do? Is the difference between stroke play and match play different enough that you wouldn't play both at once? Would you be too busy trying to beat the person hole in hole to score well or vice versa?


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## bladeplayer (Apr 30, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			I have my handicap matchplay tie on Sunday, same day as the medal. The guy I am playing is the same handicap as me and has done well in matchplay comps before.

It is also the medal on the same day and he wants to enter the medal and play both simultaneously.

Is this something you would do? Is the difference between stroke play and match play different enough that you wouldn't play both at once? Would you be too busy trying to beat the person hole in hole to score well or vice versa?
		
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Fairly sure it is not allowed  , will try remember the official answer in a bit n let ya know if some1 doesntn beat me to it



33/1

The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played. The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf. 
Certain specific Rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted.


33-1/6 Players in Match Compete Concurrently in Stroke Play Competition

Q  In ignorance of the Rules, A and B played a match and concurrently competed in a stroke play competition. What should the Committee do?

A   Under Rule 33-1, the result of the match is null and void, and A and B are disqualified in the stroke-play competition.If the match was to be played on any day in a prescribed period, A and B must replay the match within the prescribed period. If it was too late for A and B to replay the match within the period, A and B are disqualified from the match play competition, unless one concedes the match to the other.


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## guest100718 (Apr 30, 2015)

I don't know the official rule number, but I do not its not allowed.


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## jamielaing (Apr 30, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Fairly sure it cannot be done , will try remember the official answer in a bit
		
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You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 30, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.
		
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You 100% cannot play both rounds at the same time. There is a difference in the rules in a number of situations, which is the logic behind that ruling.

You have a couple of options (there may be a couple more):

You can play 36 holes. The first 18 under stroke play rules, the second under matchplay.

OR 

You can play 18 holes in the stroke play tournament. You agree (beforehand) that the lowest score of the two of you goes through to the next round, without playing a matchplay round.


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## louise_a (Apr 30, 2015)

There are rules differences between the two, so its not allowed. 

Jamie is correct, you could play in the medal and then go out afterward and play your match, not the other way round though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 30, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.
		
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Do you mean common practise to play both at the same time ?


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## bladeplayer (Apr 30, 2015)

jamielaing said:



You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.

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I have edited my post to cover the rule 

YES

You pro, or no one else has no right to waive a rule of golf   see highlighted bit in red in my other post


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2015)

You can certainly play in a medal then go right out and have a match but you cannot do the opposite, regardless of what the pro says.


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## Curls (Apr 30, 2015)

Remember to adjust your handicap after the Medal round, if you're not sure what you got cut err on the side of caution, you can declare a lower handicap for yourself than the one you have and play the match no problem but if you use a handicap higher than it should be, you lose!


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## Fyldewhite (Apr 30, 2015)

Rules are as stated many times above.....but then there's the real world. I've seen matches decided by playing at same time as a medal, by playing in different groups and comparing the cards afterwards, by tossing a coin, by agreeing lowest medal score wins etc.

All serve the purpose of getting a name in the box on the sheet for the next round. None are ideal but so long as medal rules are applied (ie in OP situation) then world will carry on turning. Not right but it happens and IMO is probably better than both players withdrawing or the dreaded coin toss etc.


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## robert.redmile (Apr 30, 2015)

as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?


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## Spuddy (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?
		
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Many rules have different punishments for breaches that differ for either format.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?
		
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Are you talking by the rules?

Some of the issues are how you deal with any penalties, or how you proceed if there is a disagreement on the rules (playing with one or two balls etc). I will let a proper rules guru expand, but they are quite different. Not only to add that surely you would play it a completely different way, it seems silly to me! The two options are per my previous post.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?
		
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its against the rules.

But as fydlewhite says if both players are in agreement and no other option is available a solution can be hashed .


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## robert.redmile (Apr 30, 2015)

I know its against the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider. 

We get lots of threads on here asking how do we make golf more popular, and making the rules easier to understand has to be high on the list in my opinion. (along with a complete change in culture from many of the people who see themselves as some sort of god because they are part of the golf club committee, but that's another story!!)


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## JamesR (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			...
just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider. 
...
		
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Is it really a situation most newcomers to the game are going to encounter?
I don't see how this could affect people to the extent that they don't want to play the game. In fact they have most probably been playing for a while before this kind of situation occurs!


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## chellie (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I know its against the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider. 

We get lots of threads on here asking how do we make golf more popular, and making the rules easier to understand has to be high on the list in my opinion. (along with a complete change in culture from many of the people who see themselves as some sort of god because they are part of the golf club committee, but that's another story!!)
		
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They're different formats though so how can the rules on this be silly.


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## Foxholer (Apr 30, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.
		
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Demonstrating once again how wrong Club Pros can be about the Rules - and how helpful they can try to be to Club members!

You can play your Strokeplay comp, then follow it with your Match. But not the other way around, nor can the Strokeplay round also be used for the Matchplay round.

However! There are certain comps that are traditionally difficult to arrange. And some clubs allow for this in their conditions of competition - being only interested in the 'result', which could even be decided by the toss of a coin! In this case, comparison of scores in a particular strokeplay event might be a way to decide a particular 'match', but that is not 'match-play' as defined in the Rules!


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## bladeplayer (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I know its against the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider. 

We get lots of threads on here asking how do we make golf more popular, and making the rules easier to understand has to be high on the list in my opinion. (along with a complete change in culture from many of the people who see themselves as some sort of god because they are part of the golf club committee, but that's another story!!)
		
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I can understand where you are coming from and me personally i couldn't care less how 2 players decide a 1v1 match between them , toss a coin draw straws . flys racing up a wall .. because it has no bearing on any1 else ..

EXCEPT 

in match play you are normally given a few weeks to arrange it but most leave it too late so laziness or unwillingness on behalf of the players caused the problem .. so if every 1 else can be bothered to get it done why shouldnt the players involved ,

 EQUITY and CoC are there for a big reason


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## Curls (Apr 30, 2015)

I can see both sides here. 

I realise that to someone who isn't that formal or even bothered about one or either competition that it might seem a pragmatic solution to play both at once.

However, it is against the rules, and there are plenty rules we don't like that we have to abide by! But the simplest way I'll put it is this:

Do either of you want to play the round knowing that whoever you meet in the next round could have you DQ'd in a heartbeat. Because there are plenty folk who would happily take that buy to the next round. Personally I wouldn't give them the chance for the sake of another round of golf some evening, matchplay is played at a pace and teeing off after 6 these days could see the match out on a quiet course... 

Your choice, no one can stop you breaking the rule, but someone could enforce it after the fact.


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## Foxholer (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?
		
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Because for some rules, an opponent who is present can decide it's in their interest to 'ignore' a breach, or make a concession. This cannot be done in Strokeplay (every other competitor would need to be consulted), so a 'lowest common denominator' penalty (or action) is applied.

I am almost certain that the difference between Matchplay and Strokeplay is NOT a consideration of anyone considering taking the game up!
It annoys me that folk attempt to blame such rules for the reduction in participation! There are plenty of other, more relevant, reasons though!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I know its against the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider. 

We get lots of threads on here asking how do we make golf more popular, and making the rules easier to understand has to be high on the list in my opinion. (along with a complete change in culture from many of the people who see themselves as some sort of god because they are part of the golf club committee, but that's another story!!)
		
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Sorry but that's nonsense - what hard to understand - you can't play matchplay match alongside a stroke play comp - quite simple 

You can't play two comps in one game in most if not all sports 

Nothing silly about it - common sense


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can't play two comps in one game in most if not all sports 

Nothing silly about it - common sense
		
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I can just see the argument for having a 20/20 game in the middle of a test match, that'd be interesting!


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## rosecott (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?
		
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OK, so, despite a great deal of sensible advice, you decide to plough on and combine playing a medal simultaneously with a matchplay.

How are you going to deal with the following situations?

6 holes into the round it is discovered that one player has 15 clubs in his bag. Which penalty to apply? Deduction of 2 holes in matchplay or 4-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
While waiting to play your second shot on any hole, to pass the time you throw an old ball down and whack it over the fence into the driving range. Which penalty to apply?Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
You play from outside the teeing ground. Which penalty to apply? No penalty in matchplay but opponent can make you play again, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay and play again from within the teeing ground.
You play a wrong ball. Which penalty to apply? Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
Grounding your club while playing the ball in a hazard. Which penalty to apply? Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.

Are these enough for you? There are more.


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## Canary_Yellow (Apr 30, 2015)

In all of those scenarios, except for the teeing ground one, why would the answer "both" not work?

For the teeing ground situation, if you don't correct the error presumably you're disqualified from the medal?
So that's your own problem. If you do correct it then it's remedied in both formats.

I'm not doubting there are good examples, but not sure those are them.


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## robert.redmile (Apr 30, 2015)

There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this" 

what  I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this" 

what  I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "
		
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It's not another another example of over complex rules - it's quite simple - you can't play matchplay and stroke play together - what's complex about that ? 

Every sport has rules - lots of rules. Golf is not different to any sport


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## duncan mackie (Apr 30, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			In all of those scenarios, except for the teeing ground one, why would the answer "both" not work?

For the teeing ground situation, if you don't correct the error presumably you're disqualified from the medal?
So that's your own problem. If you do correct it then it's remedied in both formats.

I'm not doubting there are good examples, but not sure those are them.
		
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No- unless your opponent recalls your tee shot you have no right to replay from anywhere other than where you played your original tee shot so you would be playing 3 in the medal and lose the hole (for playing from a wrong place) in the match....


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this" 

what  I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "
		
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When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised.  I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.


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## Canary_Yellow (Apr 30, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			No- unless your opponent recalls your tee shot you have no right to replay from anywhere other than where you played your original tee shot so you would be playing 3 in the medal and lose the hole (for playing from a wrong place) in the match....
		
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Well then, hardly insurmountable or a good reason why you can't play both at the same time.

I agree, it's less than ideal, and as has been said, the rules are very clear, however, if everybody just accepted all rules nothing would ever change. Ever.

Seems to me like there are a few scenarios that might lead you to have to concede the hole in Matchplay in order to keep your strokeplay score going, but surely all that does is disadvantage the player?


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## duncan mackie (Apr 30, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Well then, hardly insurmountable or a good reason why you can't play both at the same time.

I agree, it's less than ideal, and as has been said, the rules are very clear, however, if everybody just accepted all rules nothing would ever change. Ever.

Seems to me like there are a few scenarios that might lead you to have to concede the hole in Matchplay in order to keep your strokeplay score going, but surely all that does is disadvantage the player?
		
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Basically you have to play to the strokeplay rules - the end. As already said (slightly loosely) the solution is to agree that the player with poorest score in the medal, or theoretical looser on the basis of a card match, concedes the match.


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## robert.redmile (Apr 30, 2015)

Why can't we have the following rule....

Rule 4567.45 (part b) " in a club medal competition  should 2 players drawn together in a singles match in a different club competition, or 4 players in a doubles competition decide before the medal commences that they wish to count their medal score as their score in the knockout competition then they may do so under the following conditions.
1. Provided all parties agree, 
2. that each players score on each hole is deemed their score in the match (and used to determine the number of holes won/lost.
2. A - that a n/r is deemed as concession of the hole that it occurred on.
3. That all play is conducted under stroke play rules.
4. That all players agree that it is only a game, that no one will die if they decide to do this, that no advantage is gained by anyone save the players themselves that may find it hard to play 2 matches in a short time, that they are not professionals and therefore the only possible ready to play is to have fun, and enjoy the game
5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.


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## rosecott (Apr 30, 2015)

chrisd said:



			When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised.  I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.
		
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Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The loss of the hole penalty in matchplay was probably in place well before strokeplay came along. The problem then shifted from a situation where only the 2 matchplay opponents were affected to one where there was an effect on all other competitors - therefore a penalty of x strokes would apply. I agree that perhaps there should be a debate over whether the existing strokeplay penalties should apply in matchplay. I prefer things as they are (and, before you say it, I'm not resistant to change).


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			Why can't we have the following rule....

Rule 4567.45 (part b) " in a club medal competition  should 2 players drawn together in a singles match in a different club competition, or 4 players in a doubles competition decide before the medal commences that they wish to count their medal score as their score in the knockout competition then they may do so under the following conditions.
1. Provided all parties agree, 
2. that each players score on each hole is deemed their score in the match (and used to determine the number of holes won/lost.
2. A - that a n/r is deemed as concession of the hole that it occurred on.
3. That all play is conducted under stroke play rules.
4. That all players agree that it is only a game, that no one will die if they decide to do this, that no advantage is gained by anyone save the players themselves that may find it hard to play 2 matches in a short time, that they are not professionals and therefore the only possible ready to play is to have fun, and enjoy the game
5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.
		
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Did you want to change the rules to suit you in your previous sport also ?

Did you complain when you couldn't have two results from one game in your previous sport ?

Rules are rules - either play the sport under those rules in competition or play another sport. 

What next from people - how many rules should be ignored or changed because someone doesn't like them


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2015)

The 



rosecott said:



			Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The loss of the hole penalty in matchplay was probably in place well before strokeplay came along. The problem then shifted from a situation where only the 2 matchplay opponents were affected to one where there was an effect on all other competitors - therefore a penalty of x strokes would apply. I agree that perhaps there should be a debate over whether the existing strokeplay penalties should apply in matchplay. I prefer things as they are (and, before you say it, I'm not resistant to change).
		
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I do understand what you say Rose, but I think the different penalties do make the rules harder for the average player to remember and invoke correctly and that the rules could easily be made clearer and easier by harmonisation


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## rosecott (Apr 30, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.
		
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Except that in "proper" matchplay it's the scores on each individual hole that count. It's perfectly possible - and a regular occurrence - that you can win a match with a much inferior medal score compared to your opponent. That's the beauty of matchplay.


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## Canary_Yellow (Apr 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you want to change the rules to suit you in your previous sport also ?

Did you complain when you couldn't have two results from one game in your previous sport ?

Rules are rules - either play the sport under those rules in competition or play another sport. 

What next from people - how many rules should be ignored or changed because someone doesn't like them
		
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You think all of the rules are as perfect as could be?

I don't see the harm in challenging why any rule exists. If there's no longer a good reason, I'd say there's a strong argument to say it should be changed.


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## robert.redmile (Apr 30, 2015)

[SUB]soe[/SUB].....if no rules ever changed, nothing would ever change.

just because "it's the rules" doesn't make it right. Think of some of the previous "rules" in some countries during the war, or in Middle eastern countries now. Should we just say " it's the rules?!!"

ps Liverpool Phil - yes, on many occasions. Once we played a league match, and agreed to use the result to count as the result in the cup competition we were drawn in against the same team.

we also once decided that due to one team turning up late due to the coach breaking down  to play 30 mins each way to ensure the Match could be completed in daylight.

We've also played 14 vs 14 due to a car crash affected one group of players, no ref in one game, and with shirts turned inside out to avoid a colour clash.

all agreed beforehand, all breaking the rules, and all because we all wanted to play for the love of the game.

as I said, if all parties agree, and it's played under stroke play rules, there is no possible reason to deny - other than, of course, "it's against the rules"


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## Foxholer (Apr 30, 2015)

chrisd said:



			When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised.  I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.
		
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Because Matchplay is played Hole by Hole (some Scots even call it 'Hole on Hole' or similar) and Strokeplay (Medal) is played as a single 18-hole entity. This also suggests to me that Matchplay was the original form.


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## Hendo007 (Apr 30, 2015)

Here, its the cup final next sat and were due to play in the league aswell, will we just play the one game and use the result for both ? 

Of course not.....

If you don't like the rules don't play the game...... 

its that simple. 

Move on.


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## palindromicbob (May 1, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You can play 18 holes in the stroke play tournament. You agree (beforehand) that the lowest score of the two of you goes through to the next round, without playing a matchplay round.
		
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Genius.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 1, 2015)

palindromicbob said:



			Genius.
		
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I'm only used to hearing that sarcastically.

I hope this wasn't saracastically.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			[SUB]soe[/SUB].....if no rules ever changed, nothing would ever change.

just because "it's the rules" doesn't make it right. Think of some of the previous "rules" in some countries during the war, or in Middle eastern countries now. Should we just say " it's the rules?!!"
		
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Totally irrelevant to sport 




			ps Liverpool Phil - yes, on many occasions. Once we played a league match, and agreed to use the result to count as the result in the cup competition we were drawn in against the same team.
		
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Various league allow you to play double headers - but then you are playing the exact same game - in this situation you are suggesting rules ignored for playing two different formats together 



			we also once decided that due to one team turning up late due to the coach breaking down  to play 30 mins each way to ensure the Match could be completed in daylight.
		
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Played KO and the guy has been late and just waited for him



			We've also played 14 vs 14 due to a car crash affected one group of players, no ref in one game, and with shirts turned inside out to avoid a colour clash.

all agreed beforehand, all breaking the rules, and all because we all wanted to play for the love of the game.

as I said, if all parties agree, and it's played under stroke play rules, there is no possible reason to deny - other than, of course, "it's against the rules"
		
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The possible reason is its two seperate formats of golf played under different rules.

You can't play match under rules of stroke play - it's as simple as that - it's a clear simple basic rule of golf. It's not complex or strange or one that is hard to understand - it's clear as day. What is so wrong and so hard about following the basic rules. They are there to protect the integrity of the sport which is self referred - how many other rules would you like to ignore "because of the love of the game"


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## USER1999 (May 1, 2015)

How many of us play in four balls at the weekend, chuck up the balls for a match play between us, and yet keep a stableford card for the swindle?

Most, I'd guess.

Ok, it's not in a competition, but we all do it pretty much every week.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

murphthemog said:



			How many of us play in four balls at the weekend, chuck up the balls for a match play between us, and yet keep a stableford card for the swindle?

Most, I'd guess.

*Ok, it's not in a competition, but we all do it pretty much every week.*

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That's the crucial bit 

And we all know that ginmies and not putting out are regular with HC and comps not on the line


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## patricks148 (May 1, 2015)

my former club used to run a stroke play knock out where you played against someone else in stroke play and the best score after 18 won, guys used to play in the mid week comp and this on occasion.


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## robert.redmile (May 1, 2015)

I find the dogmatic views hard to understand - we are allowed to hold different opinions aren't we? or do we all have to question nothing and go along with everything just because "its the rules"

All this "its the rules, if you don't like it, don't play the game" malarkey seems a bit childish to me, and a poor way to build a reasonable debate. 

LOf course I'm not going to pack in playing golf just because I disagree with a rule - that's just a pathetic way to have an adult discussion, and the sort of response I'd expect from a teenager.

All I've said, and continue to say is that if all players agree, and that provided strokeplay rules are applied there is no reason, in amateur club competitions, to allow the score in the medal competition to count as the score in the matchplay completion

no advantage is given to anybody by this, its no big deal, and not worth getting hot under the collar over - its just a viewpoint.

Have a look on the web at "the 9 most notable rule changes in golf" - if we'd have simply sat back and allowed these to continue, "because it's in the rules" they would never have changed!! (should the people who advocated these changes simply have stopped playing the game, because they didn't like them?"

Of course not - debate is what makes things better.


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## MadAdey (May 1, 2015)

I would never play golf like this, your approach to the game and shot decision is so different. In match play I will definatly take on shots I wouldn't in stroke play. 

Saying this is a stupid rule and could put people off taking up the game is ridiculous, I've never been in this situation in over 20 years of playing.


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## Cheifi0 (May 1, 2015)

I agree that you can question rules but in this situation it sets a precedent that playing the both together could become the norm.  If I enter a matchplay competition, I want to play matchplay.  If you can't find time to play 18 holes in the allotted time period it's very poor, after all it's only 2 or 4 folk and not 25-30 as in football.


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## Canary_Yellow (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I find the dogmatic views hard to understand - we are allowed to hold different opinions aren't we? or do we all have to question nothing and go along with everything just because "its the rules"

All this "its the rules, if you don't like it, don't play the game" malarkey seems a bit childish to me, and a poor way to build a reasonable debate. 

LOf course I'm not going to pack in playing golf just because I disagree with a rule - that's just a pathetic way to have an adult discussion, and the sort of response I'd expect from a teenager.

All I've said, and continue to say is that if all players agree, and that provided strokeplay rules are applied there is no reason, in amateur club competitions, to allow the score in the medal competition to count as the score in the matchplay completion

no advantage is given to anybody by this, its no big deal, and not worth getting hot under the collar over - its just a viewpoint.

Have a look on the web at "the 9 most notable rule changes in golf" - if we'd have simply sat back and allowed these to continue, "because it's in the rules" they would never have changed!! (should the people who advocated these changes simply have stopped playing the game, because they didn't like them?"

Of course not - debate is what makes things better.
		
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Don't waste your time.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I find the dogmatic views hard to understand - we are allowed to hold different opinions aren't we? or do we all have to question nothing and go along with everything just because "its the rules"

All this "its the rules, if you don't like it, don't play the game" malarkey seems a bit childish to me, and a poor way to build a reasonable debate. 

LOf course I'm not going to pack in playing golf just because I disagree with a rule - that's just a pathetic way to have an adult discussion, and the sort of response I'd expect from a teenager.

*All I've said, and continue to say is that if all players agree, and that provided strokeplay rules are applied there is no reason, in amateur club competitions, to allow the score in the medal competition to count as the score in the matchplay completion*

no advantage is given to anybody by this, its no big deal, and not worth getting hot under the collar over - its just a viewpoint.

Have a look on the web at "the 9 most notable rule changes in golf" - if we'd have simply sat back and allowed these to continue, "because it's in the rules" they would never have changed!! (should the people who advocated these changes simply have stopped playing the game, because they didn't like them?"

Of course not - debate is what makes things better.
		
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There is a reason - you are playing in a comp that many other club members are playing in who are observing the rules of golf and the rules of the competition 

You as a golfer need to uphold the integrity of both and ensure all comps are played within both the rules of golf and the comp to ensure that the competition is fair for all and not just two people who agree to waiver a few rules 

Both competitions are more than just you and the other person. It's not up to you two to decide 

Recently two people on a society day at an away course decided to play their club KO on that day - both DQ 

Also when do you draw the line ? Which rules will you allow to "waiver" because two of you decide


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## robert.redmile (May 1, 2015)

Fair point regarding the impact on the others in the competition, I accept that makes this more difficult to justify, so I guess it makes sense to wherever possible adhere to the separate formats - 

Under extenuating circumstances, I think its preferable however to allow the simultaneous scoring idea to count rather than a simple toss coin - after all it's still golf, and better than trusting to luck!

I do however see the issues it would create, and accept that it could easily be the "thin end of the wedge"


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			Fair point regarding the impact on the others in the competition, I accept that makes this more difficult to justify, so I guess it makes sense to wherever possible adhere to the separate formats - 

Under extenuating circumstances, I think its preferable however to allow the simultaneous scoring idea to count rather than a simple toss coin - after all it's still golf, and better than trusting to luck!

I do however see the issues it would create, and accept that it could easily be the "thin end of the wedge"
		
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One of the best things about golf is the trust we have with each other to self govern the game whilst playing 

Agreeing to waive rules that go against both golf and the spirit of the game is the start of the downward spiral of the game 

If the game can't be played then a toss of the coin will do the job


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## jamielaing (May 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One of the best things about golf is the trust we have with each other to self govern the game whilst playing 

Agreeing to waive rules that go against both golf and the spirit of the game is the start of the downward spiral of the game 

If the game can't be played then a toss of the coin will do the job
		
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Since starting this thread I have read opinions with interest and see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is how agreeing to play each other in a strokeplay format is not in the spirit of the game but a coin toss is. Surely the spirit of the game is only served by playing the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			Since starting this thread I have read opinions with interest and see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is how agreeing to play each other in a strokeplay format is not in the spirit of the game but a coin toss is. Surely the spirit of the game is only served by playing the game.
		
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It's not in the spirit if it's against the rules - quite simple.


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## Spuddy (May 1, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			Since starting this thread I have read opinions with interest and see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is how agreeing to play each other in a strokeplay format is not in the spirit of the game but a coin toss is. Surely the spirit of the game is only served by playing the game.
		
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Is it impossible to play the matchplay on a separate day? If so then I don't see the problem in using the best stroke play score as a decider which has to be better than tossing a coin.  That of course is completely different from playing matchplay during a strokeplay competition for all of the reasons previously listed.


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## bladeplayer (May 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One of the best things about golf is the trust we have with each other to self govern the game whilst playing 

Agreeing to waive rules that go against both golf and the spirit of the game is the start of the downward spiral of the game 

If the game can't be played then a toss of the coin will do the job
		
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Good luck with that one Phil , game is full of cheats & rogues :thup:


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## bladeplayer (May 1, 2015)

Spuddy said:



			Is it impossible to play the matchplay on a separate day? If so then I don't see the problem in using the best stroke play score as a decider which has to be better than tossing a coin.  That of course is completely different from playing matchplay during a strokeplay competition for all of the reasons previously listed.
		
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Bingo


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Good luck with that one Phil , game is full of cheats & rogues :thup:
		
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Perhaps (sadly) more-so in your neck of the woods than elsewhere in the golfing world!


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			Since starting this thread I have read opinions with interest and see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is how agreeing to play each other in a strokeplay format is not in the spirit of the game but a coin toss is. Surely the spirit of the game is only served by playing the game.
		
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As I stated earlier, if it's purely to get a result - and the Conditions of Competition allow it - then any method - including picking which slug will make the longest trail, tossing a coin or who has the best score in the Strokeplay comp - is acceptable. But that's different from what was described in the OP - playing Strokeplay and Matchplay in the 1 round! That is specifically prohibited by Rules of Golf (33/1) - Matchplay result being null and void and both competitors being DQ-ed from the Strokeplay comp.


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## robert.redmile (May 1, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			I would never play golf like this, your approach to the game and shot decision is so different. In match play I will definatly take on shots I wouldn't in stroke play. 

Saying this is a stupid rule and could put people off taking up the game is ridiculous, I've never been in this situation in over 20 years of playing.
		
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I didn't say people wouldn't take up the game because of this. You must have mis-read my post.

.............."
I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this" 

 what  I  said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a  barrier "


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I didn't say people wouldn't take up the game because of this. You must have mis-read my post.

.............."
I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this" 

 what  I  said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a  barrier "
		
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You should at least include your entire quote!



robert.redmile said:



*just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers* and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider.
		
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If that doesn't imply 'newcomers will be put off' then I'd like a proper explanation of what you mean!


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## robert.redmile (May 1, 2015)

ok, here goes.....there is  a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.


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## jamielaing (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			ok, here goes.....there is  a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

this perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.
		
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agreed


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## Region3 (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			ok, here goes.....there is  a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf.* In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps* - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.
		
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You can.

But strictly speaking you haven't played a matchplay tie, just decided by other means who will concede it.

No rules broken, winner decided.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			ok, here goes.....there is  a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.
		
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So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the *fundamental* rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!


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## robert.redmile (May 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the *fundamental* rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!
		
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fox, yet again you haven't read (or have chosen to ignore) what I have written.

As for your last comment about relief, I rest my case about rules being complicated.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			fox, yet again you haven't read (or have chosen to ignore) what I have written.

As for your last comment about relief, I rest my case about rules being complicated.
		
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Nope! Read them, but you seem to be saying one thing then the other!

And then talking twaddle about a completely new aspect!

My explanations tend to be overly-convoluted! Basically simple (trivial even). Just have to be aware of 1 'anomoly' - which isn't an anomoly! There I go being convoluted again!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

Sorry I think it's all nonsense 

How many complicated rules are there in rugby ? Football etc

Every sport has its rules which in friendlies etc can be ignored 

But in rugby do they ignore rules in amateur comps - no , in football do they turn up for a Sunday league and forget about playing the offside rule as its a bit complex ?! No - so why do you expect to be allowed to agree to forget rules in a comp in golf which effects not just you ?! 

The overall rules in golf are very simple and the majority find it no issue to follow them - I don't recall many run out of golf clubs for innocent mistakes 

Rules aren't stopping the game from growing - cost does

Rules are always assessed on a yearly basis and they do change - grooves , dmds , belly putters as example and there are a few that might need a better look at but the fundamental basic rules have been just fine and dandy for over hundred years and haven't been a hindrance to the game 

If they bother someone that much then read up on them to give yourself a better understanding


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## Canary_Yellow (May 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I think it's all nonsense 

How many complicated rules are there in rugby ? Football etc

Every sport has its rules which in friendlies etc can be ignored 

But in rugby do they ignore rules in amateur comps - no , in football do they turn up for a Sunday league and forget about playing the offside rule as its a bit complex ?! No - so why do you expect to be allowed to agree to forget rules in a comp in golf which effects not just you ?! 

The overall rules in golf are very simple and the majority find it no issue to follow them - I don't recall many run out of golf clubs for innocent mistakes 

Rules aren't stopping the game from growing - cost does

Rules are always assessed on a yearly basis and they do change - grooves , dmds , belly putters as example and there are a few that might need a better look at but the fundamental basic rules have been just fine and dandy for over hundred years and haven't been a hindrance to the game 

If they bother someone that much then read up on them to give yourself a better understanding
		
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The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.
		
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Doesn't make the point any less valid 

You don't ignore the rules in competitive games in those sports so why in golf ? 

And they still both have big complex rule books


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.
		
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15 a side vs 7s Rugby has different Rules - not just about time and number of players. Pretty much equivalent to Matchplay vs Strokeplay.

Test and Limited Over Cricket has different Rules - not just about periods of play!

So plenty of examples of differing - and occasionally complicated - sets of Rules for different forms of same sport!


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## ger147 (May 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the *fundamental* rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!
		
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Question on the "Yellows don't allow the 2CL relief" statement.

I'm currently looking at the diagram for water hazards for rule 26 (yellow stakes or lines) and if you look at the diagram and then the options for where to drop, one of them is within 2 club lengths of point C (sorry, can't post the diagram as on my phone and looking at the diagram on works PC but can't post it from there) or within 2 club lengths of point E.

So not quite sure where the no 2CL statement comes from in this instance?


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## Canary_Yellow (May 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesn't make the point any less valid 

You don't ignore the rules in competitive games in those sports so why in golf ? 

And they still both have big complex rule books
		
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I agree that rules shouldn't be ignored.

For me though, the appropriate debate to have is whether there is anything that should be done to change those rules for the better.

That's a healthy debate to be had even if the ultimate conclusion is that the rules should stay as they are. Just accepting the status quo on the basis of the rules being the rules and that's the end of it doesn't seem like the best path to take.

When a new player comes to the sport and questions why a particular rule exists, the answer should be a proper explanation of why it's required and how it works for the benefit of participants and not simply "because the rule book says so". The closer we get to the latter, the closer we get to having an irrelevant and outdated set of rules. I'm not saying that's where we are, but if we don't take a progressive attitude to discussing why rules exist as they are, then we will get there quickly and there will become a real issue of people being put off the game for that reason.


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## ger147 (May 1, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Question on the "Yellows don't allow the 2CL relief" statement.

I'm currently looking at the diagram for water hazards for rule 26 (yellow stakes or lines) and if you look at the diagram and then the options for where to drop, one of them is within 2 club lengths of point C (sorry, can't post the diagram as on my phone and looking at the diagram on works PC but can't post it from there) or within 2 club lengths of point E.

So not quite sure where the no 2CL statement comes from in this instance?
		
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Apologies my mistake, read yellow stakes at the top and saw the diagram at the bottom. Missed the lateral water hazard (red stakes) paragraph in the middle before the diagram.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Apologies my mistake, read yellow stakes at the top and saw the diagram at the bottom. Missed the lateral water hazard (red stakes) paragraph in the middle before the diagram.

View attachment 15207

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That lack of a 2CL Relief puzzled me for a little while, though an incident where I screwed up (claiming that it WAS allowed) brought it home. I believe the reasoning is that it forces the Water Hazard to be negotiated again, rather than being able to treat it like a Lateral WH in certain circumstances - such as Westwood's screw back into the water in the PGA at Wentworth (it was exactly that circumstance, hole, shot and pin position that I screwed up!). Lateral Water Hazards are a different story - ditches can be very long - so the 2CL rule is sensible. 

I've always looked on the Rules as being equatible and mainly fair, if occasionally somewhat cruel! The need to have so many is simply down to the vast number of circumstances that can arise! They still embody the principles of the original 13 - which weren't need at all for over 300 years!


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## MadAdey (May 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I've always looked on the Rules as being equatible and mainly fair, if occasionally somewhat cruel! The need to have so many is simply down to the vast number of circumstances that can arise! They still embody the principles of the original 13 - which weren't need at all for over 300 years!
		
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I do not see a problem with the rules of golf, what you need to do is teach new players the basics, not them rely on picking them up from Bob and Fred who have no clue but insist on trying to tell others. Only 2 rules need looking into, divots and spike marks on greens. But the first is open to too much interpretation and abuse and the other will get ridiculous when players and flattening the line on a 40' putt.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I agree that rules shouldn't be ignored.

For me though, the appropriate debate to have is whether there is anything that should be done to change those rules for the better.

That's a healthy debate to be had even if the ultimate conclusion is that the rules should stay as they are. Just accepting the status quo on the basis of the rules being the rules and that's the end of it doesn't seem like the best path to take.

When a new player comes to the sport and questions why a particular rule exists, the answer should be a proper explanation of why it's required and how it works for the benefit of participants and not simply "because the rule book says so". The closer we get to the latter, the closer we get to having an irrelevant and outdated set of rules. I'm not saying that's where we are, but if we don't take a progressive attitude to discussing why rules exist as they are, then we will get there quickly and there will become a real issue of people being put off the game for that reason.
		
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I have never ever heard of someone being out of the game based on the rules being complicated 

Yes rules get visited by people regualry but how often do people want to question the fundamentals of golf ? 

I don't think I have ever come across a rule that spoils my enjoyment of the game 

If people start to think too much about the rules I would question why when the game is so simple - hit ball - walk then hit ball again. When situations arrive that require a ruling then a quick check of the rules doesn't take too long - 

And the question why rules are there is simple answer - to allow the game to be played fairly by everyone


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2015)

jamielaing said:



			You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.
		
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I think you need to stop listening to the pro.


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## Canary_Yellow (May 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have never ever heard of someone being out of the game based on the rules being complicated 

Yes rules get visited by people regualry but how often do people want to question the fundamentals of golf ? 

I don't think I have ever come across a rule that spoils my enjoyment of the game 

If people start to think too much about the rules I would question why when the game is so simple - hit ball - walk then hit ball again. When situations arrive that require a ruling then a quick check of the rules doesn't take too long - 

And the question why rules are there is simple answer - to allow the game to be played fairly by everyone
		
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The answer to the question "Why do matchplay and strokeplay not have the same rules?" is not "to allow the game to be played fairly by everyone". 

There might well be good reasons, but there's nothing wrong with a discussion of what those are and why they are still relevant and appropriate. 

I don't know whether people are put off the game on the basis of antiquated rules, or the perception thereof, but nor would I want anyone to be either, and that's why I'm all in favour of healthy debate of the rules of the game.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2015)

Debate is one thing but unfortunately it appears there are those who just refuse to accept the rule once it is explained and still insist on going their own way.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			I do not see a problem with the rules of golf, what you need to do is teach new players the basics, not them rely on picking them up from Bob and Fred who have no clue but insist on trying to tell others. Only 2 rules need looking into, divots and spike marks on greens. But the first is open to too much interpretation and abuse and the other will get ridiculous when players and flattening the line on a 40' putt.
		
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Old Skier said:



			I think you need to stop listening to the pro.
		
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@Adey Those are the 2 rules I'd 'like' to change, but I can see exactly why they can't be ('exactly' is the reason)!

@Old Skier The Pro may well be correct! But it's all about interpretation of what he has said! You can actually play a Match after a Strokeplay competition! But not the other way around - and for absolutely 'fair' reasons! This is a classic example of how the Rules of Golf are actually perfectly equitable!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2015)

Disappointing that it was the pro who said it was allowable in the first place. If no other date was available for the matchplay, I'd see if the opponent would use the medal score as a decider, play it under proper strokeplay rules and get on with it. Has to be better than tossing a coin


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## MadAdey (May 1, 2015)

I do not understand how people run out of time, it is a regular thing happening often at all clubs. I have done it once in over 20 years. But that was down to extenuating circumstances. 

We were both on holiday so had to arrange the game for a gew days before the cutoff. He then had an accident at work and put his back out so couldn't play. I didn't want to win by default, so spoke to the competitions secretary. He said we could have an extra 5 days, only if the person we are playing in the next round agreed as it affects him too. He agreed, so we played a few days late and I got beat by someone with a bad back &#128563;

So for someone to say it is either that or a coin toss is rubbish, there is ways other options.


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## palindromicbob (May 1, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I'm only used to hearing that sarcastically.

I hope this wasn't saracastically.
		
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Nope. I'd have used rolling eye smiley if I was being sarcastic .   It's the only suggestion I've read of how to play 18 holes and decide the match that isn't against the rules.


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