# 5th Division for English Football



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

Looks interesting.

Talking of including Celtic and Rangers.

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football...rs-join-english-set-up_sto5578176/story.shtml


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## Grogger (Aug 30, 2016)

Can't see them joining in my opinion.

Would the fans want them to?


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 30, 2016)

No thanks.

we don't want them down here.


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## Piece (Aug 30, 2016)

No thanks. If, and a BIG IF, it happened, where would that leave the Scottish football league?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2016)

Don't think it would ever happen - the clubs wouldn't want to give up their European Football


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't think it would ever happen - the clubs wouldn't want to give up their European Football
		
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I dunno, as a business and football club, if you had a plan that could potentially quadruple your turnover in 5-6 years, for a few austere years, you'd be mad not to consider it.

Id take celtic and Rangers, but only if the other Scottish clubs were also given the chance.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

This is not exactly news, it is a proposal made three months ago for consideration by Football League clubs only and to be discussed at, I believe, their 2017 AGM.

There is no apparent interest among those clubs to include Celtic, Rangers or any other Scottish clubs and it is hard to see why there would be.

The link provided by DfT seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking and contrary to the wishes of the Scottish football authorities who are unwilling to sanction a GB team for the Olympics for fear of losing their national team's standing. A move to include Scottish clubs within the English pyramid would only add to this problem.

UEFA and FIFA accept the situation with regard to Welsh clubs as this has existed for almost a century. It is doubtful that it would be sanctioned these days.


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## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2016)

Imagine the issues over employing foreign workers were Scotland to get independence and join the EU...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine the issues over employing foreign workers were Scotland to get independence and join the EU...
		
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Nae bother at a' Celtic and Rangers will just move their business address to Preston whilst keeping their business in Glasgow.
Scottish league teams would of course still be within the EU and have access to all the European players, unlike the English league.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2016)

Bit ironic. I'm looking forward to a quote from Nicola Sturgeon on the matter 

Personally I can't see the English clubs agreeing to it. Life is hard enough for them to go through the divisions without adding two Scottish teams into the system. Whether Celtic or Rangers want to come, they may not, probably wont come in to it. The English clubs wont vote for them it come in. Add to them various other complications, yes I know two Welsh clubs are in the league but this is new and you are crossing national boundaries.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

hmmmmm I see Wrexham beat York at the weekend.


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## virtuocity (Aug 30, 2016)

Piece said:



			where would that leave the Scottish football league?
		
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It would leave the mass majority of non 'Old Firm' fans delighted, FINALLY force change to the league structure (as our current bosses are so scared of upsetting the Glasgow teams) and we can get back to enjoying a sectarian-free, competitive league.


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## Grogger (Aug 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			hmmmmm I see Wrexham beat York at the weekend.
		
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Yeah?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 30, 2016)

Why just Celtic and Rangers though? Surely Hearts or Aberdeen etc have as much right as the Old Firm?
Unless of course it's not about footballing reasons and purely gate receipts.
Personally think it's an insult to the rest of Scottish Football.
What if (and everyone will say no chance) either of them finished bottom of the 5th Division, were are they relegated to? Because I would imagine teams will be trying to be promoted.
The only way this would ever work would be to have a GB FA and everyone had a fair chance for promotion and relegation. (Absolute no chance of this)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			hmmmmm I see Wrexham beat York at the weekend.
		
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See post #7.

Like Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, Wrexham have been part of the English pyramid for over 90 years. Don't imagine it would be sanctioned these days.

In any event why on earth would the English League clubs vote for it. No interest among most of their supporters and no financial benefit to the clubs.

Complete non-starter.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			See post #7.

Like Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, Wrexham have been part of the English pyramid for over 90 years. Don't imagine it would be sanctioned these days.

In any event why on earth would the English League clubs vote for it. No interest among most of their supporters and no financial benefit to the clubs.

Complete non-starter.
		
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I was replying to #10 so four then not two.
Thanks for reminding me i had totally forgotten about Newport.:lol:

To answer your question..........MONEY.
That is all football seems interested in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			It would leave the mass majority of non 'Old Firm' fans delighted, FINALLY force change to the league structure (as our current bosses are so scared of upsetting the Glasgow teams) and we can get back to enjoying a sectarian-free, competitive league.
		
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Many many Scottish fitba fans would agree with that.

Out of interest ....anyone know which Scottish team had the second biggest crowd on Saturday?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was replying to #10 so four then not two.
Thanks for reminding me i had totally forgotten about Newport.:lol:

To answer your question..........MONEY.
That is all football seems interested in.
		
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MONEY....... for whom?

Not the English clubs who would have to agree to the unwelcome guests.

If Celtic or Rangers need more money it is up to them and Scottish football to generate it, not the responsibility of English football. I speak as a long suffering supporter of an English Championship club and I have yet to meet anyone in England who has any interest in the Old Firm clubs joining the league.


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## Grogger (Aug 30, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			See post #7.

Like Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, Wrexham have been part of the English pyramid for over 90 years. Don't imagine it would be sanctioned these days.

In any event why on earth would the English League clubs vote for it. No interest among most of their supporters and no financial benefit to the clubs.

Complete non-starter.
		
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Not sure Wrexham would have a say unless they got promoted back into the football league before then? 

Having said that if they were given a choice I'm sure they'd be up for it along with a few other non league clubs who could be guaranteed football league status in the newly proposed league 3


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

Grogger said:



			Not sure Wrexham would have a say unless they got promoted back into the football league before then? 

Having said that if they were given a choice I'm sure they'd be up for it along with a few other non league clubs who could be guaranteed football league status in the newly proposed league 3
		
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Wrexham are in the National League which is part of the "pyramid", i.e. it is effectively in Division 5.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			MONEY....... for whom?

Not the English clubs who would have to agree to the unwelcome guests.

If Celtic or Rangers need more money it is up to them and Scottish football to generate it, not the responsibility of English football. I speak as a long suffering supporter of an English Championship club and I have yet to meet anyone in England who has any interest in the Old Firm clubs joining the league.
		
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Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2016)

So we could have a fifth division, what's the National league called, it is the fifth division. Why should any team be placed straight into the fifth league. FC United of Manchester have had to go through all of the divisions to get to where they are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?
		
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The television deal would be for all the football league divisions not just one Divsion and having Celtic and Rangers in the football wouldn't make a blind difference to the telly deal they currently have 

And what does it the amount of fans who watched Hibs have to do with anything ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?
		
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If there was any TV interest in the Old Firm down south (other than exiled Scots) we will soon discover as I understand the forthcoming match is being televised by Sky at the same time as the Manchester derby.

As for crowds did you see what Newcastle's attendance was last Saturday, in the English Championship.

Most English football fans have little or no interest in the Scottish clubs unless they have Scots blood.


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## Grogger (Aug 30, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Wrexham are in the National League which is part of the "pyramid", i.e. it is effectively in Division 5.
		
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I didnt dispute that they're not part of the pyramid. I said they're not a league side. They're non league. No such thing as division 5.

Won't matter anyway. There'll be no room for the old firm once the Prem 'B' teams worm their way into the football league.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2016)

Grogger said:



			I didnt dispute that they're not part of the pyramid. I said they're not a league side. They're non league. No such thing as division 5.
		
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That is what is meant by "effectively". Currently two clubs are promoted each year from the National League to League 2 (the fourth division) so yes the National League is effectively the fifth division.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 30, 2016)

Really can't see this happening, certainly with the introduction of the old firm. Where does that leave the SPL for starters. Really can't see this getting any sort of go ahead


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If there was any TV interest in the Old Firm down south (other than exiled Scots) we will soon discover as I understand the forthcoming match is being televised by Sky at the same time as the Manchester derby.

As for crowds did you see what Newcastle's attendance was last Saturday, in the English Championship.

Most English football fans have little or no interest in the Scottish clubs unless they have Scots blood.
		
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TV football viewing is worldwide, not just in 'down south land'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			TV football viewing is worldwide, not just in 'down south land'.
		
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I'm not sure that "worldwide" the Football league is a big seller hence the telly contracts aren't big worldwide , same with the Scottish League - it's the lack of worldwide stars playing that reduces the appeal.

Unless you believe there to be a worldwide appeal ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not sure that "worldwide" the Football league is a big seller hence the telly contracts aren't big worldwide , same with the Scottish League - it's the lack of worldwide stars playing that reduces the appeal.

Unless you believe there to be a worldwide appeal ?
		
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I think Old Firm matches will still attract an audience in countries with large Scottish immigrant groups. Austrailia/SA/NZ/USA/Canada.
Worldwide it is probably still ranked highly as one of the worlds top 'local derby's'. 
Can't see many wanting to watch Rangers v Frimley Green but Rangers still enjoyed decent support, live and TV, when they spent four years in the lower Scottish divisions.
TV coverage of the Scottish Championship when Rangers and Hearts were playing was a boost to the other teams. Before that we hardly got a glimpse of that League on telly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Old Firm matches will still attract an audience in countries with large Scottish immigrant groups. Austrailia/SA/NZ/USA/Canada.
Worldwide it is probably still ranked highly as one of the worlds top 'local derby's'. 
Can't see many wanting to watch Rangers v Frimley Green but Rangers still enjoyed decent support, live and TV, when they spent four years in the lower Scottish divisions.
TV coverage of the Scottish Championship when Rangers and Hearts were playing was a boost to the other teams. Before that we hardly got a glimpse of that League on telly.
		
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But it's pennies compared to the sort of telly deals given to the top leagues 

Rangers and Celtic being in the FL wouldn't increase any telly deal given


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## virtuocity (Aug 31, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Where does that leave the SPL for starters.
		
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This seems to be common amongst southerners- but at least you have minimal knowledge of the Scottish game.  Sadly, this is the same tripe churned out by the Scottish tabloids any time there is even a glimpse of a threat towards the domination of the Old Firm teams.  When Rangers were liquidated, a famous phrase, 'Armageddon' was peddled about by those who ran the Scottish game.  Top league clubs, who were being denied the charity of Rangers fans' admission money would follow the mighty Gers into oblivion.  The bosses were, and remain completely steadfast in marketing the Scottish game based on the Old Firm brand.  It's completely infuriating.  

Watch a League One match, followed by an Scottish Premiership match.  The quality is exactly the same, yet teams from the former league can easily snap up the best young talent from the latter (Old Firm aside).  

Instead of armageddon, season ticket sales amongst 'diddy' teams generally went up.  Rangers weren't missed.  Without them, and their East End counterparts, the Scottish game would both survive and thrive.  

However, this is on the proviso that the Fatcats sitting in Hamden begin to believe in the notion that Scottish football, outside of the Old Firm, is actually good entertainment- or certainly as good as English League 1- and market it accordingly.  Alas, it is much more likely that they will be devoting the majority of their next meeting pulling together a contingency in case it becomes possible for the Old Firm to leave for pastures new.


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## User62651 (Aug 31, 2016)

For me it's either all Scottish teams or no Scottish teams if a UK league of sorts evolves, allowing only 2 to leave because they have a bigger fanbase and more money isn't a good enough justifcation. For me as an Aberdeen 'fan' losing the Old Firm from the league is not good despite the religious intolerance that blights those clubs (most of them probably never been near a church), the standards would fall even further, Aberdeen and Hearts would become the new dominant pair instead of OF. We're soon building a new out of town stadium at Aberdeen, need to fill it sometimes!
I would be perfectly happy for a club like Aberdeen to play League One or possibly even Championship at a UK level, they have the same kind of support and resources as clubs like Ipswich, Norwich, Burnley, Bournemouth etc etc.
You can't stop change of course.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			This seems to be common amongst southerners- but at least you have minimal knowledge of the Scottish game.  Sadly, this is the same tripe churned out by the Scottish tabloids any time there is even a glimpse of a threat towards the domination of the Old Firm teams.  When Rangers were liquidated, a famous phrase, 'Armageddon' was peddled about by those who ran the Scottish game.  Top league clubs, who were being denied the charity of Rangers fans' admission money would follow the mighty Gers into oblivion.  The bosses were, and remain completely steadfast in marketing the Scottish game based on the Old Firm brand.  It's completely infuriating.  

Watch a League One match, followed by an Scottish Premiership match.  The quality is exactly the same, yet teams from the former league can easily snap up the best young talent from the latter (Old Firm aside).  

Instead of armageddon, season ticket sales amongst 'diddy' teams generally went up.  Rangers weren't missed.  Without them, and their East End counterparts, the Scottish game would both survive and thrive.  

However, this is on the proviso that the Fatcats sitting in Hamden begin to believe in the notion that Scottish football, outside of the Old Firm, is actually good entertainment- or certainly as good as English League 1- and market it accordingly.  Alas, it is much more likely that they will be devoting the majority of their next meeting pulling together a contingency in case it becomes possible for the Old Firm to leave for pastures new.
		
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The quality dropped as soon as Rangers were no more; Celtic's decline has shown that. Don't confuse an increase in how competitive the league is (undoubtedly higher) with an increase in overall quality.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it's pennies compared to the sort of telly deals given to the top leagues 

Rangers and Celtic being in the FL wouldn't increase any telly deal given
		
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Sorry if I did not explain that too well.......Rangers and Celtic in an English 5th [and even 4th and 3rd division] would certainly bring money, TV, publicity and competition to the table.
Portsmouth home game v Celtic would certainly fill the ground and bring a lot more income to the club.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2016)

It all brings huge complications and baggage and that, in the view of most Chairmen will outweight the limited financial benefits. Rangers for example have a record of causing carnage on their travels through England. Clubs, stadiums and towns don't need that. Put simply, Rangers and Celtic need the English leagues far more than the English leagues need them. It wont happen.

In terms of gates, you can only sell out the away section and the size of that is always limited. The financial bonus to clubs will not be that huge. Believing that Portsmouth or other fans will be queuing up to see Rangers or Celtic play is not realistic.


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## virtuocity (Aug 31, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			The quality dropped as soon as Rangers were no more; Celtic's decline has shown that. Don't confuse an increase in how competitive the league is (undoubtedly higher) with an increase in overall quality.
		
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OK, Celtic's quality dropped, because they had no need to spend huge to win the league.  

What other team's quality dropped?


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			OK, Celtic's quality dropped, because they had no need to spend huge to win the league.  

What other team's quality dropped?
		
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Difficult to judge when the bench market dropped so markedly. Rangers this year will help us determine that - if they do well over the course of the season, we'll soon know without doubt that the SPL is at a low.


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## virtuocity (Aug 31, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Difficult to judge when the bench market dropped so markedly. Rangers this year will help us determine that - if they do well over the course of the season, we'll soon know without doubt that the SPL is at a low.
		
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How do you quantify 'quality'?  

As for your second point, are you discarding Rangers' financial superiority?  Bear in mind that Joey Barton's weekly wage was more than Kilmarnock's starting line up's wages combined.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry if I did not explain that too well.......Rangers and Celtic in an English 5th [and even 4th and 3rd division] would certainly bring money, TV, publicity and competition to the table.
Portsmouth home game v Celtic would certainly fill the ground and bring a lot more income to the club.
		
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Why?

The vast majority of the potential TV audience care no more for Rangers or Celtic than they do for, say, Notts County or Millwall so Sky or any other broadcaster are not going to throw money at the product.

As for the effect on gates it would be of negligible benefit. Many of the grounds in Leagues 1 and 2 are relatively small and most of the clubs in the Championship would need more than a couple of above average attendances if they are to strengthen their finances. Most of them rely upon the support of wealthy (or stupid) owners.

BTW Portsmouth pretty well fill their ground each home game.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			For me it's either all Scottish teams or no Scottish teams if a UK league of sorts evolves, allowing only 2 to leave because they have a bigger fanbase and more money isn't a good enough justifcation. For me as an Aberdeen 'fan' losing the Old Firm from the league is not good despite the religious intolerance that blights those clubs (most of them probably never been near a church), the standards would fall even further, Aberdeen and Hearts would become the new dominant pair instead of OF. We're soon building a new out of town stadium at Aberdeen, need to fill it sometimes!
I would be perfectly happy for a club like Aberdeen to play League One or possibly even Championship at a UK level, they have the same kind of support and resources as clubs like Ipswich, Norwich, Burnley, Bournemouth etc etc.
You can't stop change of course.
		
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Spot on.

I don't seem to agree with most of the English on here........

1. Celtic and Rangers would bring increased interest in the lower leagues, if they had to fight through them. If Barnsley played any of them it would be a 30k gate, instead of a 12k gate. Albeit it would only be for 1-2 seasons "on the way through".

2. Don't discount Sky's marketing - whatever league they would be in, it would still be a big story.

3. I would genuinely hope that the other Scottish teams are also given the option. For those not wanting it, it may become like the league of Wales, which is semi-pro.

4. Would this then encourage a British league? If it did you might then get franchises happening in Irish football, more to represent a county rather than a city or town (not a fan of franchises, BTW). I remember it was mooted that Wimbledon would move to Dublin, but still play in the English league (what an away match that would be).

5. Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee united would add to whatever leagues they found themselves in, and I would have a premier league, championship, division 1, then a north and south league, as per years ago.

I'd welcome a British league (or even a British cup to replace the league cup), but wouldn't welcome a European league.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Spot on.

I don't seem to agree with most of the English on here........

1. Celtic and Rangers would bring increased interest in the lower leagues, if they had to fight through them. If Barnsley played any of them it would be a 30k gate, instead of a 12k gate. Albeit it would only be for 1-2 seasons "on the way through".

2. Don't discount Sky's marketing - whatever league they would be in, it would still be a big story
		
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LB, you seem to be out of touch with fans of EFL clubs. The question of Scottish clubs being involved has been asked before and they are not interested.

Agreed the "away" attendance may increase but not the "home", Celtic and Rangers are not a "pull".

As for the TV deal being improved; I doubt it , after all Sky pay only peanuts for Scottish (i.e. Celtic & Rangers) at the moment so why would they increase it now.


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## Grogger (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Spot on.

I don't seem to agree with most of the English on here........

1. Celtic and Rangers would bring increased interest in the lower leagues, if they had to fight through them. *If Barnsley played any of them it would be a 30k gate, instead of a 12k gate. Albeit it would only be for 1-2 seasons "on the way through"*.

2. Don't discount Sky's marketing - whatever league they would be in, it would still be a big story.

3. I would genuinely hope that the other Scottish teams are also given the option. For those not wanting it, it may become like the league of Wales, which is semi-pro.

4. Would this then encourage a British league? If it did you might then get franchises happening in Irish football, more to represent a county rather than a city or town (not a fan of franchises, BTW). I remember it was mooted that Wimbledon would move to Dublin, but still play in the English league (what an away match that would be).

5. Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee united would add to whatever leagues they found themselves in, and I would have a premier league, championship, division 1, then a north and south league, as per years ago.

I'd welcome a British league (or even a British cup to replace the league cup), but wouldn't welcome a European league.
		
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Oakwell only holds 23,000

I don't think they'd draw that many more fans in until they reached the PL. I'd rather see my team play a Yorkshire rival than Celtic or Rangers plus in the lower leagues they still wouldn't attract players that anyone would want to see. They'd be able to afford good ones but most players are hardly going to step down to league 2 just to play for Celtic. Be totally different if they made it to the PL as they'd attract a lot of good players but they'd have to get there first.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

Grogger said:



			Oakwell only holds 23,000

I don't think they'd draw that many more fans in until they reached the PL. I'd rather see my team play a Yorkshire rival than Celtic or Rangers plus in the lower leagues they still wouldn't attract players that anyone would want to see. They'd be able to afford good ones but most players are hardly going to step down to league 2 just to play for Celtic. Be totally different if they made it to the PL as they'd attract a lot of good players but they'd have to get there first.
		
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Aye...Bournemouth would also struggle to cope with the 20,000 away traveling Rangers and Celtic fans.oo:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye...Bournemouth would also struggle to cope with the 20,000 away traveling Rangers and Celtic fans.oo:
		
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My word you really have got a down on Bournemouth, haven't you?

In any event neither could any club in Scotland accommodate 20,000 Rangers or Celtic fans and, in fact, do not have ro.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2016)

No club would accomodate 20k away fans. That would not leave enough space for their own. Most PL clubs have space for around 4-5k away fans. Having more away fans wanting tickets than that is irrelevant as they just can't get them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			My word you really have got a down on Bournemouth, haven't you?

In any event neither could any club in Scotland accommodate 20,000 Rangers or Celtic fans and, in fact, do not have ro.
		
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Team in the EPL with a ground capacity of 11,000 is desperately poor. IMO.

Lord Tyron......Then why are we seeing half empty grounds for EPL matches.
If clubs become reliant on TV money instead of spectators they will find themselves on the slippery slope. IMO


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## User62651 (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lord Tyron......Then why are we seeing half empty grounds for EPL matches.
If clubs become reliant on TV money instead of spectators they will find themselves on the slippery slope. IMO
		
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Common scenario is that those empty seats are actually sold seats as they're held by a season tickets holder and on the day that person has decided not to attend for whatever reason.
Bournemouth are diddy but they got up there through merit and did manage to stay up when bigger clubs like Newcastle and Villa didn't. Nice for their fans to enjoy the big time for a while, bit like Blackpool did a few years back. The financial rewards of the EPL are astounding, no two ways about it, seems the rest of Europe is in a flap about that too.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm not sure which grounds are half empty. Attendences are strong across the board. Some places, like Sunderland for example will be below capacity as a/ the ground is really bigger than they need and b/ the football on offer is pretty grim. Most are pretty full most weeks though. I don't think home fans would suddenly flood to matches with Celtic or Rangers in them though, they just are not a big draw, and most away ends are already full pretty much every game so the situation does not alter. Maxfli also makes a good point about season ticket holders, individuals or corporate, who don't go to every match and so seats are empty although they are sold.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure which grounds are half empty. Attendences are strong across the board. Some places, like Sunderland for example will be below capacity as a/ the ground is really bigger than they need and b/ the football on offer is pretty grim. Most are pretty full most weeks though. I don't think home fans would suddenly flood to matches with Celtic or Rangers in them though, they just are not a big draw, and most away ends are already full pretty much every game so the situation does not alter. Maxfli also makes a good point about season ticket holders, individuals or corporate, who don't go to every match and so seats are empty although they are sold.
		
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I get that, but some of the grounds I saw were barely half full. This results in a poor atmosphere.
Are the season ticket holders sitting at home or in the pub watching the match on the telly?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I get that, but some of the grounds I saw were barely half full. This results in a poor atmosphere.
Are the season ticket holders sitting at home or in the pub watching the match on the telly?
		
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The lowest percentage of capacity so far this season is Hull City at 82% and five clubs have been 99% full, even Sunderland mentioned by Lord T are 89% full. Bournemouth 99.1%.

Would appear that EPL clubs don't have too much to worry about on that score.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 31, 2016)

I think the Rangers Celtic thing is a bit of a red herring and what will happen is that they will put the development/reserve/B teams from the Premier League in there. To just reduce further the chances of small teams getting promoted to the big time and further increase the exposure for the big teams that draw in viewers/advertisers.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the Rangers Celtic thing is a bit of a red herring and what will happen is that they will put the development/reserve/B teams from the Premier League in there. To just reduce further the chances of small teams getting promoted to the big time and further increase the exposure for the big teams that draw in viewers/advertisers.
		
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Have you seen the attendances from last night's EPL Trophy games involving those Under 23 teams?

Would not suggest that there is any appetite amongst the fans of League 1 & 2 clubs to see these so called rising stars.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			The lowest percentage of capacity so far this season is Hull City at 82% and five clubs have been 99% full, even Sunderland mentioned by Lord T are 89% full. Bournemouth 99.1%.

Would appear that EPL clubs don't have too much to worry about on that score.
		
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99.1% full with a capacity of 11,000 in the EPL.........well done Bournemouth.
Early days this season, you don't happen to have last seasons full % by any chance?


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			LB, you seem to be out of touch with fans of EFL clubs. The question of Scottish clubs being involved has been asked before and they are not interested.

Agreed the "away" attendance may increase but not the "home", Celtic and Rangers are not a "pull".

As for the TV deal being improved; I doubt it , after all Sky pay only peanuts for Scottish (i.e. Celtic & Rangers) at the moment so why would they increase it now.
		
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Your right mate, I'm not in agreement.......with the armchair fans, sorry EFL fans.

No doubt, if Barnsley played Celtic, 10,000 bhoys would be in attendance, but I also think that the home fans would also be boosted by another 8-10 thousand guest100718's , just like when drawn against a large prem club in the FA cup.

Doesnt make it right or wrong, but I'd certainly like it.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

Grogger said:



			Oakwell only holds 23,000

I don't think they'd draw that many more fans in until they reached the PL. I'd rather see my team play a Yorkshire rival than Celtic or Rangers plus in the lower leagues they still wouldn't attract players that anyone would want to see. They'd be able to afford good ones but most players are hardly going to step down to league 2 just to play for Celtic. Be totally different if they made it to the PL as they'd attract a lot of good players but they'd have to get there first.
		
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You surprise me, the last time I went there was only a paddock behind the goal, and I thought it held about 25k then, and I know its been replaced by a large stand. I stand corrected.

Some would and with Yorkshire football generally in the lower reaches, as we speak, there must be a few derbies a year, but still think that Rangers at Hillsborough would be a 40k plus gate, and would attract a lot of interest.

I can still remember the hype from when Leeds played Rangers back when Leeds where in Europe, more so than if Leeds were just playing, say, Porto.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2016)

LB, do you think Rangers and Celtic still have the same cache though? Back then, yes, I don't think so now.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			LB, do you think Rangers and Celtic still have the same cache though? Back then, yes, I don't think so now.
		
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I think Rangers spent all that cache, didn't they?:whoo:

Maybe not as big as then, but still big.

Have Ajax, St. Etienne, Valencia got as big a pull as 10-20 years ago? No, but they are still big clubs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2016)

There are lots of big clubs with history that have lost their lustre. All the club's you mentioned are in the same boat. They don't excite opposition fans from other countries as they once would have. Plenty in the championship in that category as well.


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## Grogger (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			You surprise me, the last time I went there was only a paddock behind the goal, and I thought it held about 25k then, and I know its been replaced by a large stand. I stand corrected.

Some would and with Yorkshire football generally in the lower reaches, as we speak, there must be a few derbies a year, but still think that Rangers at Hillsborough would be a 40k plus gate, and would attract a lot of interest.

I can still remember the hype from when Leeds played Rangers back when Leeds where in Europe, more so than if Leeds were just playing, say, Porto.
		
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Suppose it's just preference at the end of the day? I'm not saying they wouldn't pull in the crowds but I'm not sure many grounds outside of the PL would be at capacity. Theres a few factors that grounds aren't full and ticket prices are the big one but that's a debate for another time I suppose? 

I dont think it'd ever happen. Celtic are back in the CL now and there's no one in the SPL to stop them at the present time so I think they'd stay in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

I knew what you meant about Barnsley I was just being pedantic so I apologise mate :thup:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Your right mate, I'm not in agreement.......with the armchair fans, sorry EFL fans.

No doubt, if Barnsley played Celtic, 10,000 bhoys would be in attendance, but I also think that the home fans would also be boosted by another 8-10 thousand guest100718's , just like when drawn against a large prem club in the FA cup.

Doesnt make it right or wrong, but I'd certainly like it.
		
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No bloody armchairs at St Andrews!

I really think you over-estimate the pull of the Old Firm to English supporters.

Perhaps to those like yourself who recall the odd battle with them in Europe but to the rest of us they would just be seen as financial refugees from a pub-league. Sadly that is how the SPL is now seen by many English football supporters as the quality of players involved in it are generally comparable with those found in League 1 or possibly the lower reaches of the Championship.

Celtic and Rangers no longer have the players that would make the occasional supporter want to get off his backside and go to a match.

The Scottish clubs would need this more than those in England but a British League would mean the demise of the Home nations as separate entities and international teams.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

Grogger said:



			I knew what you meant about Barnsley I was just being pedantic so I apologise mate :thup:
		
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Not a problem, maybe if Barnsley's local populace went to see their local team.......


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			No bloody armchairs at St Andrews!

I really think you over-estimate the pull of the Old Firm to English supporters.

Perhaps to those like yourself who recall the odd battle with them in Europe but to the rest of us they would just be seen as financial refugees from a pub-league. Sadly that is how the SPL is now seen by many English football supporters as the quality of players involved in it are generally comparable with those found in League 1 or possibly the lower reaches of the Championship.

Celtic and Rangers no longer have the players that would make the occasional supporter want to get off his backside and go to a match.

The Scottish clubs would need this more than those in England but a British League would mean the demise of the Home nations as separate entities and international teams.
		
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Your right on the players not being attractive. 

It would be interesting to ask away match goers. I doubt southern fans would fancy the trek, but think that northern fans would rather a trip to Dundee or Hearts rather than Brentford or Gillingham, or even as a change.

I've had some great times at Celtic, Rangers for friendly games, and even went to see the reds at Dundee (not dundee united) on a cold Wednesday night friendly back in 1988 - must have been mad!!!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Your right on the players not being attractive. 

It would be interesting to ask away match goers. I doubt southern fans would fancy the trek, but think that northern fans would rather a trip to Dundee or Hearts rather than Brentford or Gillingham, or even as a change.

I've had some great times at Celtic, Rangers for friendly games, and even went to see the reds at Dundee (not dundee united) on a cold Wednesday night friendly back in 1988 - must have been mad!!!!
		
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Brentford or Gillingham each provide the possibility of a night out in London; Dundee provides....................!!??!!

Celtic or Rangers might ultimately make it into the Premier League but it would take more time than they can afford. As for the remaining Scottish clubs, I cannot see them progressing beyond League 1.

As I say I really fail to see what benefit there might be to EFL clubs and their fans.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Brentford or Gillingham each provide the possibility of a night out in London; Dundee provides....................!!??!!

Celtic or Rangers might ultimately make it into the Premier League but it would take more time than they can afford. As for the remaining Scottish clubs, I cannot see them progressing beyond League 1.

As I say I really fail to see what benefit there might be to EFL clubs and their fans.
		
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Dundee - the city of discovery, dundee cake, struggling now......

The benefits - ask the off licences and the boozers.


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## Crazyface (Sep 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			No bloody armchairs at St Andrews!

I really think you over-estimate the pull of the Old Firm to English supporters.

Perhaps to those like yourself who recall the odd battle with them in Europe but to the rest of us they would just be seen as financial refugees from a pub-league. Sadly that is how the SPL is now seen by many English football supporters* as the quality of players involved in it are generally comparable with those found in League 1 or possibly the lower reaches of the Championship.*

.
		
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Three ex Macc Town players play in this league. So, the quality is far less than Championship!


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Three ex Macc Town players play in this league. So, the quality is far less than Championship!
		
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There are probably 100 ex. championship players in the prem..........not a good comparison, players improve.


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