# Manchester Terrorist Attack!



## Fish (May 23, 2017)

Just waking up to the terrible and cowardly terrorist attack at the Manchester concert.

So far 19 have lost their lives with up to 60 injured.

Reports of an explosion and ball bearings all over the floor so a dirty bomb in a packed concert.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40007886


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2017)

Bloody hell, what next? These are just kids for gods sake...


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## Beezerk (May 23, 2017)

Awful, kids as well. I can see some idiots burning down mosques over this.


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## Wayman (May 23, 2017)

Some of the videos and pictures being shared on Facebook this morning are brutal. 

So upsetting this isn't going to stop here


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## sawtooth (May 23, 2017)

My daughter is 14 and could quite easily have gone to this sort of gig with friends. It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and I can't imagine the horror these poor kids and parents are going through.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2017)

Sick to the stomach, it's a kids pop concert for godsake! Death toll risen to 22, believed to been done by a suicide bomber.


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## Captainron (May 23, 2017)

Cousin, her husband and their daughter were there. Left early because the kid was too warm and a bit tired. 

Who targets a kids concert? Just sickening


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## chrisd (May 23, 2017)

Absolutely unbelievable


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## moogie (May 23, 2017)

Totally appalling scenes,  just seen on news
Very sad indeed,  sickening infact


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## Junior (May 23, 2017)

Horrific.....the stories on the news about the kids who are still missing is wrenching.


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## huds1475 (May 23, 2017)

It's not unbelievable, there are some very sick people out there who need sorting out.


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## ger147 (May 23, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			My daughter is 14 and could quite easily have gone to this sort of gig with friends. It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and I can't imagine the horror these poor kids and parents are going through.
		
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My 15 year old was at the Glasgow version of the same concert with her Mum, mixed feelings this morning of shock, horror and luck...


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## Stuart_C (May 23, 2017)

Terrible news from what happened last night, i fear how these types of incidents will stop. 

Thoughts are with the injured families and friends.


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## Liverbirdie (May 23, 2017)

Heard the first reports of this last night, truly horrendous news.

Thoughts with the families of the dead, injured and the people of Manchester at this terrible time.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 23, 2017)

#prayforManchester


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

Thoughts with the victims. 
My Mrs & son were there at a Bruno Mars gig just 2wk ago. 
Sickening.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

Awful news , thoughts with families


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2017)

The Enemy within.  What on earth can we do about these atrocities?


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## Radbourne2010 (May 23, 2017)

Appauling, cowardly act of terrorism against our way of life & freedom to do what we want, with whom we want, wherever that may be. Heart goes out to all affected, especially those having lost loved ones or caring for the injured & maimed 
	
#prayforManchester


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2017)

Thoughts with the victims of this cowardly atrocity.


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## JohnnyDee (May 23, 2017)

Dreadful news. Deepest sympathy goes out to those who have lost loved ones, the injured and those still waiting to hear about members of their family and friends.


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## anotherdouble (May 23, 2017)

Painful to see coverage of parents waitin for their kids as people rushing to escape


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## need_my_wedge (May 23, 2017)

A kids concert, how very brave of these cowards.


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The Enemy within.  What on earth can we do about these atrocities?
		
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Nothing we can do, other than pick ourselves up and carry on. I'm due to see Iron Maiden in london with my kids Saturday night, i must admit I'm in two minds about it now,  but if I don't go they'll have won.


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## woody69 (May 23, 2017)

drive4show said:



			#prayforManchester
		
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I hate this type hashtag that gets wheeled out after every incident like this.


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## medwayjon (May 23, 2017)

Utterly despicable

As much as I hate to say it, I think the time is fast approaching where there is a case to detain those on whom the security services have credible intelligence on without charge pending further investigation.

Here and on foreign soil, it is far too common an occurrence that the perpetrators of such evil acts are already known to authorities for extremist views, and in some cases already have been identified in the funding and incitement of terrorism.

If ever there was a time for open-ended detention without charge, it is now, to help win the battle against terrorism.


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## Kellfire (May 23, 2017)

woody69 said:



			I hate this type hashtag that gets wheeled out after every incident like this.
		
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Agreed. Religion very possibly played a huge part in causing this awful event.


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## davemc1 (May 23, 2017)

Truly dreadful, thoughts to all those affected by the incident.


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Agreed. Religion very possibly played a huge part in causing this awful event.
		
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Nothing to do with religion. Shame people have to give terrorists a label to hang on to.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2017)

woody69 said:



			I hate this type hashtag that gets wheeled out after every incident like this.
		
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A terrorist act that kills 21 innocent people, many more injured and you describe it as an incident, no show of sympathy or support for those suffering, just a whinge about a hashtag. Must be awful for you


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing to do with religion. Shame people have to give terrorists a label to hang on to.
		
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But these people are religious. And it is their religious belief that they are right. 

Granted they are misinterpreting what they should do. But they are far too big a faction to call them crazy people. It's not a one off person. It's organised. They are an organisation. 

Im of the opinion shared above. Detention of any suspected terrorist. All of them seem to have been in a list at some point and then released or not followed through. I'd happily offend people if it saved lives. 

We we don't have to lock em up and waterboard em. But take them off the streets.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			But these people are religious. And it is their religious belief that they are right. 

Granted they are misinterpreting what they should do. But they are far too big a faction to call them crazy people. It's not a one off person. It's organised. They are an organisation. 

Im of the opinion shared above. Detention of any suspected terrorist. All of them seem to have been in a list at some point and then released or not followed through. I'd happily offend people if it saved lives. 

We we don't have to lock em up and waterboard em. But take them off the streets.
		
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I agree with your sentiments.  The least we could do is tag them and make them report daily to a police station.   I know it's not a solution but doing nothing isn't either.


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## Kellfire (May 23, 2017)

The Arndale centre is reportedly being evacuated now.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2017)

whole of the UK must be on high alert  today. first time Ive seen and Police at the Airport in about 3 years, today crawling with them.


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## Crazyface (May 23, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			But these people are religious. And it is their religious belief that they are right. 

Granted they are misinterpreting what they should do. But they are far too big a faction to call them crazy people. It's not a one off person. It's organised. They are an organisation. 

Im of the opinion shared above. Detention of any suspected terrorist. All of them seem to have been in a list at some point and then released or not followed through. I'd happily offend people if it saved lives. 

We we don't have to lock em up and waterboard em. But take them off the streets.
		
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I've decided to do what everyone else is doing, shrug shoulders and say how awful and terrible it is...then to NOTHING AT ALL!!!! 

Makes me wonder just what will have to happen for THE GOVERNMENT to actually do something, what most of us have been saying should be done. Why aren't honest muslims informing on these nutters? Hmmmm. Oh well, never mind, its terrible horrible. 

PS YES I listened in horror at the the news on the radio with the wife from 6am to 7am then on the TV then back to the radio at work. .


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			But these people are religious. And it is their religious belief that they are right. 

Granted they are misinterpreting what they should do. But they are far too big a faction to call them crazy people. It's not a one off person. It's organised. They are an organisation. 

Im of the opinion shared above. Detention of any suspected terrorist. All of them seem to have been in a list at some point and then released or not followed through. I'd happily offend people if it saved lives. 

We we don't have to lock em up and waterboard em. But take them off the streets.
		
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I didn't think it's been announced who is responsible and whether or not it was a type of fundamentalist or a lone nutter


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I've decided to do what everyone else is doing, shrug shoulders and say how awful and terrible it is...then to NOTHING AT ALL!!!! 

Makes me wonder just what will have to happen for THE GOVERNMENT to actually do something, what most of us have been saying should be done. Why aren't honest muslims informing on these nutters? Hmmmm. Oh well, never mind, its terrible horrible. 

PS YES I listened in horror at the the news on the radio with the wife from 6am to 7am then on the TV then back to the radio at work. .
		
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Again why are you bringing Muslims into it.


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## Kellfire (May 23, 2017)

Victoria Coach station in London was evacuated due to a suspect package this morning too.


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I've decided to do what everyone else is doing, shrug shoulders and say how awful and terrible it is...then to NOTHING AT ALL!!!! 

Makes me wonder just what will have to happen for THE GOVERNMENT to actually do something, what most of us have been saying should be done. Why aren't honest muslims informing on these nutters? Hmmmm. Oh well, never mind, its terrible horrible. 

PS YES I listened in horror at the the news on the radio with the wife from 6am to 7am then on the TV then back to the radio at work. .
		
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I'm not wanting to pick an argument here so please don't take it that way. 
But how do you know that honest muslims know anything about it? 
I can't see the people planning these sick attacks going around broadcasting it.


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## woody69 (May 23, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			A terrorist act that kills 21 innocent people, many more injured and you describe it as an incident, no show of sympathy or support for those suffering, just a whinge about a hashtag. Must be awful for you
		
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Ha, yeah, good one.


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

Come on,not on this thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

woody69 said:



			Ha, yeah, good one.
		
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Come on - is now really the time


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## woody69 (May 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Come on - is now really the time
		
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Of course not, but it was a facetious reply to a pointless dig.


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## Wabinez (May 23, 2017)

There are no words.

I just find myself less and less surprised at these sorts of things now, and it's a terrible mindset to have. Always expecting something like this to happen anywhere, any time


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## DRW (May 23, 2017)

Shocking and thoughts with the families and injured.


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## carwynedwards9 (May 23, 2017)

Sickening news.


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## guest100718 (May 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't think it's been announced who is responsible and whether or not it was a type of fundamentalist or a lone nutter
		
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C'mon.... you think making a bomb on your own is easy?


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## Wabinez (May 23, 2017)

Saw it flash up as a notification that Islamic State had taken responsibility for it


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## woody69 (May 23, 2017)

Wabinez said:



			Saw it flash up as a notification that Islamic State had taken responsibility for it
		
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Of course they will. Doesn't mean it's true


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't think it's been announced who is responsible and whether or not it was a type of fundamentalist or a lone nutter
		
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The organsitation is Isis. Whether this is a person who's part of them. Or just indoctrinated through their propoganda is yet to be seen. But either way. It has a religious base.


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## adam6177 (May 23, 2017)

Just how long do you think until people start taking this into their own hands......its only a matter of time in my opinion, the people will have enough and start fighting back.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2017)

Who do they fight back against though? These people are largely hidden. How many times do you hear neighbours saying afterwards, "he was such a quiet man, very nice". 

The potential answer could be very unpleasant and I hope we never get to that point.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2017)

adam6177 said:



*Just how long do you think until people start taking this into their own hands*......its only a matter of time in my opinion, the people will have enough and start fighting back.
		
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I'd like to think that the vast majority of the public realise these are shocking but relatively isolated incidents, carried out by fundamentalists. 

As LT says, not really sure who people will fight against?  How much of a better job will some vigilantes going on a crusade against some unknown enemy do over our intelligence services, community leaders and police? Who let us not forget, do prevent the vast majority of these incidents occurring. Of course one incident like this is one too many, but I am not seeing how people 'taking it into their own hands' (whatever that means) will improve anything.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			The organsitation is Isis. Whether this is a person who's part of them. Or just indoctrinated through their propoganda is yet to be seen. But either way. It has a religious base.
		
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When you posted your post their was and still is no official confirmation that it was ISIS or indeed any other religious basis - it was an assumption


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			Just how long do you think until people start taking this into their own hands......its only a matter of time in my opinion, the people will have enough and start fighting back.
		
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Fight back against who ? And how exactly will they fight back ?


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2017)

Guys this really isn't the time or place for an arguement


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## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2017)

Bomber named as Salman Abedi, 22 born in Manchester , parents fled Ghadaffi regime and was bought up in manchester. 

details here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

Lord knows how you fix this



Apologies cant read a newspaper report properly
post edited,


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2017)

Sad times for everyone.


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## Fish (May 23, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Bomber named as Salman Abedi, 22 born in Libya , parents fled Ghadaffi regime and was bought up in manchester. 

details here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

Lord knows how you fix this
		
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They've just stated he was actually born in Manchester, and the police commissioner also stated that there has been misinformation bandied about through social media before official statements have been made.


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When you posted your post their was and still is no official confirmation that it was ISIS or indeed any other religious basis - it was an assumption
		
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When I made my comment they said it was a likely suicide bomber. In recent times in Europe the suicide bombers have been linked by a false religion at least to ISIS. 

I make no apology for presuming it was the same here. 

If it turns out it was a spotty 15 year old Christian boy I'll hold my hands up. I'm not in anyway blaming Islam or saying all muslims are terrorists. But I am presuming it's another suicide bomber who calls himself Muslim.


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## Fish (May 23, 2017)

22-05-13 Lee Rigby 
22-03-16 Brussels attack
22-07-16 Munich attack
22-03-17 London attack
22-05-17 Manchester attack 
22-07-17 ?

Is there something relevant to the 22nd and months 3, 5 or 7?


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## guest100718 (May 23, 2017)

Fish said:



			22-05-13 Lee Rigby 
22-03-16 Brussels attack
22-07-16 Munich attack
22-03-17 London attack
22-05-17 Manchester attack 
22-07-17 ?

Is there something relevant to the 22nd and months 3, 5 or 7?
		
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No.


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## Slime (May 23, 2017)

SaintHacker said:



			Guys this really isn't the time or place for an arguement
		
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Some people just can't help it SH, it seems to be in their DNA.


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## Dasit (May 23, 2017)

Very sad news when I heard this.

Thoughts go to the families and friends of lost ones, I can't imagine how traumatic the past day has been.



I do fear it may be too late for many countries in Europe to deal with the problems of the religion of peace, but that is a discussion for another thread.


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## Sweep (May 23, 2017)

medwayjon said:



			Utterly despicable

As much as I hate to say it, I think the time is fast approaching where there is a case to detain those on whom the security services have credible intelligence on without charge pending further investigation.
If ever there was a time for open-ended detention without charge, it is now, to help win the battle against terrorism.
		
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I am afraid to say I agree and it is not just because they have attacked my city (though that is very sobering). A governments first duty is to protect its citizens and I am afraid doing nothing is no longer an option and hasn't been for some time.
We need to get with the program and stop asking why these evil people do these things because it is beyond any decent persons comprehension. We have to accept that if they have their way, this will be the new normal and if we take no action they will continue to murder our children. It is as stark as that. There is no possibility of negotiation. They have never sought to discuss their demands. This is good versus evil. It really is as simple as that and it is the duty of every decent government to put evil down wherever it raises its head.
If our security services know of people who pose this kind of risk to innocent people they should be allowed to take serious and effective measures to neutralise the risk. I have not reached this conclusion easily and I am fully aware of governments and regimes that have used excuses to give themselves unnecessary powers to further illegitimate means, but desperate times call for desperate measures. I believe the British public want to see some affirmative action against this ever present and lethal threat.


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I am afraid to say I agree and it is not just because they have attacked my city (though that is very sobering). A governments first duty is to protect its citizens and I am afraid doing nothing is no longer an option and hasn't been for some time.
We need to get with the program and stop asking why these evil people do these things because it is beyond any decent persons comprehension. We have to accept that if they have their way, this will be the new normal and if we take no action they will continue to murder our children. It is as stark as that. There is no possibility of negotiation. They have never sought to discuss their demands. This is good versus evil. It really is as simple as that and it is the duty of every decent government to put evil down wherever it raises its head.
If our security services know of people who pose this kind of risk to innocent people they should be allowed to take serious and effective measures to neutralise the risk. I have not reached this conclusion easily and I am fully aware of governments and regimes that have used excuses to give themselves unnecessary powers to further illegitimate means, but desperate times call for desperate measures. I believe the British public want to see some affirmative action against this ever present and lethal threat.
		
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But what action do we take? 
It's not like it's a country with a evil leader that we're up against. 
These people are everywhere. 

I do agree that action needs to be taken,just not sure how.


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## Sweep (May 23, 2017)

Pin-seeker said:



			But what action do we take? 
It's not like it's a country with a evil leader that we're up against. 
These people are everywhere. 

I do agree that action needs to be taken,just not sure how.
		
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I was agreeing with the policy of internment of those who were considered likely to commit terrorist acts.


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## Fish (May 23, 2017)

Pin-seeker said:



			But what action do we take? 
It's not like it's a country with a evil leader that we're up against. 
These people are everywhere. 

I do agree that action needs to be taken,just not sure how.
		
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But as has been said, we constantly hear, "he was known to us", "he has been interviewed/arrested before but there wasn't enough to hold him". 

you can only monitor these individuals so much, bar tagging them,  they know some have returned from trips to Syria and beyond, but if they were born here, how do we deal with that, is it treason? Is there still a law and penalty for treason? Could that be introduced as a gateway to lock them up just for their actions against our way of life, but where does that then leave free speech?

We don't want a knee jerk reaction but I think some laws need changing quickly because I think many of the public think and believe nothing can be done and the British born terrorists and the Imrans who preach the hate play on that!!


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

Fish said:



			But as has been said, we constantly hear, "he was known to us", "he has been interviewed/arrested before but there wasn't enough to hold him". 

you can only monitor these individuals so much, bar tagging them,  they know some have returned from trips to Syria and beyond, but if they were born here, how do we deal with that, is it treason? Is there still a law and penalty for treason? Could that be introduced as a gateway to lock them up just for their actions against our way of life, but where does that then leave free speech?

We don't want a knee jerk reaction but I think some laws need changing quickly because I think many of the public think and believe nothing can be done and the British born terrorists and the Imrans who preach the hate play on that!!
		
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Agreed.
Sod the "we didn't have enough to hold him"
If there's any suspicion that someone is a threat they should be heald as long as it takes to either prove they're a threat or not.


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## woody69 (May 23, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I was agreeing with the policy of internment of those who were considered likely to commit terrorist acts.
		
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Pin-seeker said:



			Agreed.
		
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Pin-seeker said:



Sod the "we didn't have enough to hold him" If there's any suspicion that someone is a threat they should be held as long as it takes to either prove they're a threat or not.

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The problem is not everyone on the terrorist watch-list are actually terrorists, or even sympathisers. They are just associated with others on the list. Locking them up on the off chance they might become radicalised or be a terrorist in the future is a terrible idea.

What do you think would be the quickest way to get some to become radicalised? Simple, take a person associated with someone on the list and assume they are a terrorist and lock them up. I mean look how well Long Kesh and the 'H' blocks worked during the Northern Ireland 'troubles'. Oh, that's right they didn't work at all. 

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And without trying to sound like a hippy, you don't stop hate with hate.


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## huds1475 (May 23, 2017)

Have to agree. 

If they're a potential threat, and evidence supports it (which is a very important r distinction) lock them up.

My definition of freedom (of choice, will, whatever) doesn't extend to doing indiscriminate harm to others. 

That's more like barbarism, not freedom.


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## Pin-seeker (May 23, 2017)

woody69 said:





The problem is not everyone on the terrorist watch-list are actually terrorists, or even sympathisers. They are just associated with others on the list. Locking them up on the off chance they might become radicalised or be a terrorist in the future is a terrible idea.

What do you think would be the quickest way to get some to become radicalised? Simple, take a person associated with someone on the list and assume they are a terrorist and lock them up. I mean look how well Long Kesh and the 'H' blocks worked during the Northern Ireland 'troubles'. Oh, that's right they didn't work at all. 

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And without trying to sound like a hippy, you don't stop hate with hate.

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I'm not saying lock em up and throw away the key.
Just give the police as long as it takes.
Imagine if the police have someone that they know to be a threat but some lawyer gets them released due to human rights or some other BS,and then the suspect does something like last night. 
Maybe I watch too much tv. 
But I'd just give the police more power. 
And if anyone doesn't like it they can sod off and live somewhere else.
Just my opinion.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2017)

I know this will not be welcome by many but I really don't like the lack of social cohesion that has penetrated our society, I also think many of the people emerging as perpetrators of these crimes are products of the way our society has become multi cultural.  Let me explain further why I feel this way:  I live in a street and I have no indication of what religion any of my neighbors have, I have no indication what any ones religion is  in any of the streets near me, none of them have emerged as potential terrorists as far as I am aware.  We dont have communities of any particular faith, we dont have community leaders of any particular faith, we just get on with life and make the best of it.   This is the way life should be in this country, why is there a  need for certain faiths to live together in communities or have community leaders for their faith, we have structures that allow representation of our citizens through the ballot box.  Society should be secular in it's organisation, people should have every right to follow their religions but not to allow them to become part of societies fabric.

What has this got to do with the terrible events we have witnessed recently.  In my opinion it has a lot to do with it and the only way to improve things is to do whatever is necessary to break down multi cultures.


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2017)

Back after a day out and see that some still feel that they need to put a religious tag on this terrorist. Shame really, "it" is a terrorist and looking at some of the internment and vigilantly posts, looks like "it" has done a good job.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 23, 2017)

So sad and every death like this is devastating but how can any belief religious or not, justify killing an 8 year old. I feel so sorry for the families of all those killed and injured but I do agree with what has been said on TV, that Manchester, having gone through bombing before will stand shoulder to shoulder and the spirit will never be broken. It's been the same in Paris and all the other places that have witnessed these atrocities and terrorism will never win


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Agreed. Religion very possibly played a huge part in causing this awful event.
		
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really...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Back after a day out and see that some still feel that they need to put a religious tag on this terrorist. Shame really, "it" is a terrorist and looking at some of the internment and vigilantly posts, looks like "it" has done a good job.
		
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You're wasting your time mate. :thup:


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## Sweep (May 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Back after a day out and see that some still feel that they need to put a religious tag on this terrorist. Shame really, "it" is a terrorist and looking at some of the internment and vigilantly posts, looks like "it" has done a good job.
		
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If "it" is carrying out the attack in the name of religion, then you can understand why people put a religious tag on "it".
As for internment, what would you do? We don't let burglars walk the streets without a tag and yet we let those who are under suspicion walk free. I can't allow anyone at work to make a coffee without carrying out a risk assessment. I would like to see the risk assessment on letting these people roam free.
Assesment: Not arresting a potential terrorist.
Risk: Mass murder on a grand scale.
Action: No action available under the law.

No-one wants to see innocent people detained, but if it's a choice between that a dead children, I know which way I would go. I would rather err on the side of cation


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## chrisd (May 24, 2017)

Sweep said:



			If "it" is carrying out the attack in the name of religion, then you can understand why people put a religious tag on "it".
As for internment, what would you do? We don't let burglars walk the streets without a tag and yet we let those who are under suspicion walk free. I can't allow anyone at work to make a coffee without carrying out a risk assessment. I would like to see the risk assessment on letting these people roam free.
Assesment: Not arresting a potential terrorist.
Risk: Mass murder on a grand scale.
Action: No action available under the law.

No-one wants to see innocent people detained, but if it's a choice between that a dead children, I know which way I would go. I would rather err on the side of cation
		
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If these people are 'on the radar' I'd suggest bringing them in and interviewing them. Tell them that they're being monitored and the very first time they contact anyone else who's on the radar, look at radical content online or do anything that is considered against the national interest that they will be arrested and put into internment.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2017)

Sweep said:



			If "it" is carrying out the attack in the name of religion, then you can understand why people put a religious tag on "it".
		
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The only people putting a religious tag on it are people on social media from what I can see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

Sweep said:



			If "it" is carrying out the attack in the name of religion, then you can understand why people put a religious tag on "it".
As for internment, what would you do? We don't let burglars walk the streets without a tag and yet we let those who are under suspicion walk free. I can't allow anyone at work to make a coffee without carrying out a risk assessment. I would like to see the risk assessment on letting these people roam free.
Assesment: Not arresting a potential terrorist.
Risk: Mass murder on a grand scale.
Action: No action available under the law.

No-one wants to see innocent people detained, but if it's a choice between that a dead children, I know which way I would go. I would rather err on the side of cation
		
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The only burglars we allow to walk the streets are the convicted ones, you're talking guilty until proven innocent.

Were are all these people who are going to gather the information, arrest them, interview them, lock them up, were's the detention centres, were's the staff, whose going to feed them while they are locked up......etc etc.

What we should be doing is manning, funding and resourcing our security forces correctly, they are doing a fantastic job with one arm tied behind their back.

Even with all that you'll never stop the lone wolf or the one who flips and uses whatever they can.

You can't simply lift anyone and everyone on suspicion, you'll waste more time processing the innocent and all British people abroad you put at greater risk.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The only people putting a religious tag on it are people on social media from what I can see.
		
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Religion has to be at the heart of it.  It may be an extreme form of it but all the same it's in the name of religion.  We seem to be frightened to admit and face up to it as we may be called racist.  These perpetrators carry out their crimes in the name of Islam and are Muslims, if you look at the Muslim world there are wars and religious hatred all over, that extends now to countries where they have moved to.   I am not suggesting all muslims are the problem but I cant ignore the fact that something in their communities create this hatred for others and even themselves, we cannot sit back and ignore it in the name of Political Correctness.


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## Sweep (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The only burglars we allow to walk the streets are the convicted ones, you're talking guilty until proven innocent.

Were are all these people who are going to gather the information, arrest them, interview them, lock them up, were's the detention centres, were's the staff, whose going to feed them while they are locked up......etc etc.

What we should be doing is manning, funding and resourcing our security forces correctly, they are doing a fantastic job with one arm tied behind their back.

Even with all that you'll never stop the lone wolf or the one who flips and uses whatever they can.

You can't simply lift anyone and everyone on suspicion, you'll waste more time processing the innocent and all British people abroad you put at greater risk.
		
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I agree with you on the job the security forces are doing and that we should fund them. We should also stop tying their hands behind their back and allow them to tag or detain those who are under suspicion. The alternative, as a I say, is to allow the terrorists to continue to kill us and our children. 
I agree that you will never get them all, especially the lone wolf, but where we are aware of people's terrorist beliefs, associations and online activity it's simply crazy to allow them the scope to commit an atrocity.
As in most bad situations, prevention is better than the cure.
A governments first duty is to protect its citizens. It's time our government treated this as a priority and I think it is a fair question to ask any party seeking election in June how they plan to tackle this threat. Doing nothing is not an option.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I agree with you on the job the security forces are doing and that we should fund them. We should also stop tying their hands behind their back and allow them to tag or detain those who are under suspicion. The alternative, as a I say, is to allow the terrorists to continue to kill us and our children. 
I agree that you will never get them all, especially the lone wolf, but where we are aware of people's terrorist beliefs, associations and online activity it's simply crazy to allow them the scope to commit an atrocity.
As in most bad situations, prevention is better than the cure.
A governments first duty is to protect its citizens. It's time our government treated this as a priority and I think it is a fair question to ask any party seeking election in June how they plan to tackle this threat. Doing nothing is not an option.
		
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That's exactly what they are doing, the fight sgainst these people is 24/7, We live in a Democracy and have the finest justice system in the world, Judges won't sign off on suspicion and rumour, we all want this scum wiped off the earth but locking anyone and everyone we have suspicions about won't work.
Nobody is allowing terrorists to kill anybody,


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			That's exactly what they are doing, the fight sgainst these people is 24/7, We live in a Democracy and have the finest justice system in the world, Judges won't sign off on suspicion and rumour, we all want this scum wiped off the earth but locking anyone and everyone we have suspicions about won't work.
Nobody is allowing terrorists to kill anybody,
		
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Very good point. Also I am lead to believe that they prevent the vast majority of these planned incidents occurring through intelligence. Of course you can not rest on your laurels but as you correctly say, they are hardly 'doing nothing'. In fact I am pretty sure they would be insulted by that accusation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Religion has to be at the heart of it.  It may be an extreme form of it but all the same it's in the name of religion.  We seem to be frightened to admit and face up to it as we may be called racist.  These perpetrators carry out their crimes in the name of Islam and are Muslims, if you look at the Muslim world there are wars and religious hatred all over, that extends now to countries where they have moved to.   I am not suggesting all muslims are the problem but I cant ignore the fact that something in their communities create this hatred for others and even themselves, we cannot sit back and ignore it in the name of Political Correctness.
		
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A warped interpretation and application of the medieval teachings of one religion used to brainwash individuals with low self-esteem and low self-worth - from the days that Christians burned and tortured each other for saying the wrong thing and sent crusades to free Jerusalem from the muslims.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2017)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/humanity-levels-raised-to-high-20170524128199


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## woody69 (May 24, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I agree with you on the job the security forces are doing and that we should fund them. We should also stop tying their hands behind their back and allow them to tag or detain those who are under suspicion. The alternative, as a I say, is to allow the terrorists to continue to kill us and our children. 
I agree that you will never get them all, especially the lone wolf, but where we are aware of people's terrorist beliefs, associations and online activity it's simply crazy to allow them the scope to commit an atrocity.
As in most bad situations, prevention is better than the cure.
A governments first duty is to protect its citizens. It's time our government treated this as a priority and I think it is a fair question to ask any party seeking election in June how they plan to tackle this threat. Doing nothing is not an option.
		
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The security services are not 'doing nothing'. I don't have recent figures, but at the start of the year Britain had supposedly foiled 10 potential terrorist attacks over the previous 2 years and had over 550 'live' cases open. They have also convicted nearly 300 individuals on terror related offences in that time.

The problem is, for all that effort, all it takes is one to be successful and it is assumed we are not doing enough.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

I am of a mind that on a personal level and how I live my life that I must include the chance of getting caught up in a terrorist attack in the same bucket of risks as motorway driving, flying, ferries, train journeys etc.  'Taking part' in any of these I know is a risk, but I know that if I do my part and the authorities and others do their part; and I encourage, support and exhort them to do so whenever I can and as best I can, then the risk to me and those with me is minimised and that is all I can do.  

I will add - and this will miss most I suspect - but it is how I can cope - as a Christian I am able to hand over my acceptance of the risk and any anger and fear I have over such atrocities to my God (as I understand him) - and in that way I can get on with life with general peace of mind.  Just how I do it.  No point in me walking about with anger, resentments and fear when I have done all I can, and trust that all others like-minded are doing their bit, and their best also.


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## Crazyface (May 24, 2017)

woody69 said:



			The security services are not 'doing nothing'. I don't have recent figures, *but at the start of the year Britain had supposedly foiled 10 potential terrorist attacks over the previous 2 years and had over 550 'live' cases open. They have also convicted nearly 300 individuals on terror related offences in that time.*

The problem is, for all that effort, all it takes is one to be successful and it is assumed we are not doing enough.
		
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And yet we let these people wander around coming in and out of our country. We shout out words of defiance afterwards...wait 'till is one of your family that are killed. Will these people, who passionately proclaim Manchester will prevail, still be saying the same things then? Will they hell!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Religion has to be at the heart of it.  It may be an extreme form of it but all the same it's in the name of religion.  We seem to be frightened to admit and face up to it as we may be called racist.  These perpetrators carry out their crimes in the name of Islam and are Muslims, if you look at the Muslim world there are wars and religious hatred all over, that extends now to countries where they have moved to.   I am not suggesting all muslims are the problem but I cant ignore the fact that something in their communities create this hatred for others and even themselves, we cannot sit back and ignore it in the name of Political Correctness.
		
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You appear desperate to ensure that religion of Islam and Muslims get blamed for it - it's like reading a Facebook post from one of those Templar Knight groups - under currents of clear racism despite the denials. There are millions upon millions of Muslims practising their religion in perfect peace and harmony. 

Over the years Christianity has prob been at the heart of more deaths around the world than any other religion - going back to the crusades and even before that , all the way up to recent years.

It's not the fault of religion or beliefs it's always people interpretation of what is written down - no religion tells people to murder kids going to a concert but someone's interpretation of their religion will have them believe they are doing it for the right cause just as over the years christians believe they were doing it for the right cause when they murdered other ethnics or people with different beliefs


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			And yet we let these people wander around coming in and out of our country. We shout out words of defiance afterwards...wait 'till is one of your family that are killed. Will these people, who passionately proclaim Manchester will prevail, still be saying the same things then? Will they hell!
		
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These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You appear desperate to ensure that religion of Islam and Muslims get blamed for it - it's like reading a Facebook post from one of those Templar Knight groups - under currents of clear racism despite the denials. There are millions upon millions of Muslims practising their religion in perfect peace and harmony. 

Over the years Christianity has prob been at the heart of more deaths around the world than any other religion - going back to the crusades and even before that , all the way up to recent years.

It's not the fault of religion or beliefs it's always people interpretation of what is written down - no religion tells people to murder kids going to a concert but someone's interpretation of their religion will have them believe they are doing it for the right cause just as over the years christians believe they were doing it for the right cause when they murdered other ethnics or people with different beliefs
		
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Go to many muslim countries and try to openly practice Christianity. See how that works out.

The muslim religion is not one of war and hate. But, the twisted beliefs of it are currently not just restricted to a minority.


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.
		
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I don't think its the right answer, but could the country not decide to ban the religion that these people follow. Many countries don't allow the practice of certain religions. With the latest events i wouldnt be surprised to see a swell of support if they banned the practice of islam. 

Then it would maybe force people to either leave ( homegrown or not), or at least make it harder for people to find places to worship.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't think its the right answer, but could the country not decide to ban the religion that these people follow. Many countries don't allow the practice of certain religions. With the latest events i wouldnt be surprised to see a swell of support if they banned the practice of islam. 

Then it would maybe force people to either leave ( homegrown or not), or at least make it harder for people to find places to worship.
		
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You're not being serious surely, isn't that red rag to a bull? Should we have kicked all the Irish Catholics and their descendants out when the IRA was active.
The normal everyday law abiding muslim and islamist are not the issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't think its the right answer, but could the country not decide to ban the religion that these people follow. Many countries don't allow the practice of certain religions. With the latest events i wouldnt be surprised to see a swell of support if they banned the practice of islam. 

Then it would maybe force people to either leave ( homegrown or not), or at least make it harder for people to find places to worship.
		
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Come on - you cannot be serious...

besides how do you 'ban' thought and belief...ah yes George Orwell invented a dystopian UK where the Thought Police monitored your every movement and activity and these would eventually reveal your thinking - and then they would get you.

I would assume you uphold the individual right of freedom of speech movement (freedom of religion having been dropped) - and yet ... ban Islam - perfect Doublethink

_Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in oneâ€™s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.â€_


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## Beezerk (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The normal everyday law abiding muslim and islamist are not the issue.
		
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I do believe he didn't say they were, you're kind of succinctly putting words in his mouth.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Go to many muslim countries and try to openly practice Christianity. See how that works out.

The muslim religion is not one of war and hate. But, the twisted beliefs of it are currently not just restricted to a minority.
		
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Sorry but the actions that cause havoc and chaos are restricted to the minority to suggest otherwise is clearly wrong 

There is nothing wrong in having different beliefs to others - it's what makes us all different 

Just read your other post and ban Islam and Muslims ?!? Do you suggest the same for any areas of Christianity that have caused issues ? Ban religion based on the minority who try and twist the teachings to justify their actions


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2017)

There was an interesting interview this morning on GMB, no really. It was a woman who I normally find unbearable but she actually spoke very well. Yasmin something or other. Anyway, her point was these people are following a Muslim doctrine, don't hide from this, don't pretend otherwise. It is an extreme version, medieval. There have been more Muslims killed by these people than any other religious group so don't think other Muslims escape or support this. She blamed a particular sect which I wont state as I don't know enough about it but which came predominantly from Saudi Arabia. Anyway, she stated that this section of the faith should not be allowed to run Mosques or schools in this country. A former extremist, now converted, agreed with her. She was a Shia Muslim by the way and no, the sect was not Sunny. Very interesting.


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

Excellent debates and dialog from individuals on Sky News clearly stating that anyone who is saying this isn't about religion or that religion isn't behind all the attacks we endure, is kidding themselves!

All the wordings and texts are real, it's simply that some individuals interpret them differently, some of these speakers also go on to say that again this idea that weak or vulnerable individuals are targeted, is a myth! 

Yes, there is no doubt radicalisation goes on but individuals who are brought up with or around these more hostile and hatred variations of Islam towards the west or anyone that doesn't follow those jihadist ideals, volunteer and make themselves available to the terror groups who then simply use them as weapons for their own agenda.  

What I don't ever quite get my head around is, we go on about being a multicultural country and we are happy to welcome people from anywhere in the world, but for me there has to be a stronger sense of integration.  

Nobody should come over and set up in areas that only dominate those nationalities, religious beliefs or faiths, and then make no effort to mix with western society and only go on to complain and demonstrate against our western views and laws and more importantly, make no effort to speak our language.

Change has to start somewhere, more worrying is that there are areas in my city, and possibly others, that even I wouldn't venture out on my own too late into the night.  

We have already had some situations where young women walking home from nightclubs have been attacked and beaten by young Muslim men who don't agree with the way they are dressed etc!

If these young men are like this now within our country and have probably been born here, then they are typical of the issues and problems we face and are possibly being taught this way by their parents, and if that is the case, then before these young men become fully fledged homegrown terrorists, if there parents have not been born here and still hold dual nationality in their birth country, then they need getting rid of back to where they allegedly fled from, because quite simply, we cannot have these homegrown terrorists thinking they can come and go as they please and believing there's nothing we can do before it's too late and they've blown some people up because they hold a British passport.

All British passports and citizenship for people coming to our country to set up new lives needs to be temporary, if any serious laws are broken or if we know of teachings which can or could lead to serious terrorist events, those passports are then withdrawn and they, parents, son's daughters and everyone associated to them whether born here or not, are flown immediately out back to their parents origin.

No detention centres, no red tape, it's a temporary passport and it can be withdrawn immediately.

This is no time to pander to the rights of any individuals, we make our laws, they are abided by or you run the risk of being deported back to your place of birth and any sons or daughters born here lose their rights as there citizenship is only based on their parents temporary passport/dual-nationality.

It's time to take the gloves off...


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't think its the right answer, but *could the country not decide to ban the religion that these people follow.* Many countries don't allow the practice of certain religions. With the latest events i wouldnt be surprised to see a swell of support if they banned the practice of islam. 

Then it would maybe force people to either leave ( homegrown or not), or at least make it harder for people to find places to worship.
		
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Yes, because that will not inflame the situation, introduce further division into an country already doing its best to tear itself apart and act as a recruiting tool for potential fundamentalists will it.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You appear desperate to ensure that religion of Islam and Muslims get blamed for it - it's like reading a Facebook post from one of those Templar Knight groups - under currents of clear racism despite the denials. There are millions upon millions of Muslims practising their religion in perfect peace and harmony. 

Over the years Christianity has prob been at the heart of more deaths around the world than any other religion - going back to the crusades and even before that , all the way up to recent years.

It's not the fault of religion or beliefs it's always people interpretation of what is written down - no religion tells people to murder kids going to a concert but someone's interpretation of their religion will have them believe they are doing it for the right cause just as over the years christians believe they were doing it for the right cause when they murdered other ethnics or people with different beliefs
		
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I am not desperate to ensure anything, I am stating an opinion.  Your comments regarding Facebook and Knights Templar are way off the mark and seem like you are desperate to make the connection.

Why are you mentioning the Crusades and things carried out in the middle ages as some kind of support for the atrocities carried out recently in the name of Islam and they were carried out in it's name.   Christians in the whole have moved on since the Crusades, maybe you haven't noticed.   Islam carries on in the same way as it did in those days and is responsible for most of the war and misery in the world.

Of course these matters are not the fault of the religion in it's written form but it is carried out in the name of that religion and no matter how much we would like to brush it under the carpet most of these problems in the world are carried out in the name of Islam, we don't have concerns for Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist suicide bombers do we?  We really need to wake up about it and not run scared of offending the root cause of the problem, we have done that too often with very bad outcomes.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Fish said:



			Excellent debates and dialog from individuals on Sky News clearly stating that anyone who is saying this isn't about religion or that religion isn't behind all the attacks we endure, is kidding themselves!

All the wordings and texts are real, it's simply that some individuals interpret them differently, some of these speakers also go on to say that again this idea that weak or vulnerable individuals are targeted, is a myth! 

Yes, there is no doubt radicalisation goes on but individuals who are brought up with or around these more hostile and hatred variations of Islam towards the west or anyone that doesn't follow those jihadist ideals, volunteer and make themselves available to the terror groups who then simply use them as weapons for their own agenda.  

What I don't ever quite get my head around is, we go on about being a multicultural country and we are happy to welcome people from anywhere in the world, but for me there has to be a stronger sense of integration.  

Nobody should come over and set up in areas that only dominate those nationalities, religious beliefs or faiths, and then make no effort to mix with western society and only go on to complain and demonstrate against our western views and laws and more importantly, make no effort to speak our language.

Change has to start somewhere, more worrying is that there are areas in my city, and possibly others, that even I wouldn't venture out on my own too late into the night.  

We have already had some situations where young women walking home from nightclubs have been attacked and beaten by young Muslim men who don't agree with the way they are dressed etc!

If these young men are like this now within our country and have probably been born here, then they are typical of the issues and problems we face and are possibly being taught this way by their parents, and if that is the case, then before these young men become fully fledged homegrown terrorists, if there parents have not been born here and still hold dual nationality in their birth country, then they need getting rid of back to where they allegedly fled from, because quite simply, we cannot have these homegrown terrorists thinking they can come and go as they please and believing there's nothing we can do before it's too late and they've blown some people up because they hold a British passport.

All British passports and citizenship for people coming to our country to set up new lives needs to be temporary, if any serious laws are broken or if we know of teachings which can or could lead to serious terrorist events, those passports are then withdrawn and they, parents, son's daughters and everyone associated to them whether born here or not, are flown immediately out back to their parents origin.

No detention centres, no red tape, it's a temporary passport and it can be withdrawn immediately.

This is no time to pander to the rights of any individuals, we make our laws, they are abided by or you run the risk of being deported back to your place of birth and any sons or daughters born here lose their rights as there citizenship is only based on their parents temporary passport/dual-nationality.

It's time to take the gloves off...
		
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This guy and many others were actually born and bred in this country - where do you deport him too ?


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This guy and many others were actually born and bred in this country - where do you deport him too ?
		
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Read what I said, his parents were Libyan, everyone now should only hold temporary passports and citizenship who come here.

He has been brought up and taught to hate the west, he has gone back & forth back to Libya, I don't care that he was born here, whilst he was born here with parents on a temporary passport all the family is deported back to Libya and his citizenship removed.

What we need to do is, _rather than constantly finding reasons and excuses on why not to do this or that or the other, we need to radically change our laws_ because these homegrown terrorists think and know that they are untouchable until they carry out an atrocity, well that has to change, and if we know, through our intelligence that children born here from families who have fled places like Libya or Syria but travel back & forth to cells for training, then the whole family goes and all citizenships are removed, as they were all temporary citizenships anyway!


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.
		
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I'd like to think that the cretin who carried out Mondays attack wasn't let back in from his recent travels without an extensive grilling and a warning that he was being watched closely, especially given he was known to the intelligence service. Sadly, I don't think this happened.


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.
		
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Val said:



			I'd like to think that the cretin who carried out Mondays attack wasn't let back in from his recent travels without an extensive grilling and a warning that he was being watched closely, especially given he was known to the intelligence service. Sadly, I don't think this happened.
		
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They need to have a different passport that flags up because there parents only hold a temporary passport if they come from high profile countries like Libya, Syria etc. 

That way they are constantly on the radar, if any intel uncovers that he has been to training camps or any links to terror cells, the whole family is deported out the country, he is not allowed back and any citizenship as it was only temporary, is withdrawn.

I honestly can't see why that's difficult to implement, only those people who have something to hide will complain, those law abiding genuine people looking to live a peaceful life in the west won't care, because they won't break our laws to the degree it would warrant a deportation.

There's too much hiding behind this, 'he was born over here', his parents weren't and they know what he's up to, so mag to grid get rid!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

So deport a whole family back because of the actions of one ? How far back do you go ? Grandparents as well ? People from certain countries only ever get a "temp passport" and then 50 years down the line the children who are all born here aren't allowed a full passport all because of the country their ancestors were born in ? 

Which countries should be highlighted ? Saudi has a big issue with terrorists ? Same with Pakistan but yet both have people coming here that cause no issues whatsoever. 

Issuing someone with a temporary citizenship and passport isn't going to stop them if they are that determined to cause havoc 

When the IRA were causing issues for decades there wasn't the same calls for restrictions to Irish Catholics ?


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So deport a whole family back because of the actions of one ? How far back do you go ? Grandparents as well ? People from certain countries only ever get a "temp passport" and then 50 years down the line the children who are all born here aren't allowed a full passport all because of the country their ancestors were born in ? 

Which countries should be highlighted ? Saudi has a big issue with terrorists ? Same with Pakistan but yet both have people coming here that cause no issues whatsoever. 

Issuing someone with a temporary citizenship and passport isn't going to stop them if they are that determined to cause havoc 

When the IRA were causing issues for decades there wasn't the same calls for restrictions to Irish Catholics ?
		
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What would you suggest?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was an interesting interview this morning on GMB, no really. It was a woman who I normally find unbearable but she actually spoke very well. Yasmin something or other. Anyway, her point was these people are following a Muslim doctrine, don't hide from this, don't pretend otherwise. It is an extreme version, medieval. There have been more Muslims killed by these people than any other religious group so don't think other Muslims escape or support this. She blamed a particular sect which I wont state as I don't know enough about it but which came predominantly from Saudi Arabia. Anyway, she stated that this section of the faith should not be allowed to run Mosques or schools in this country. A former extremist, now converted, agreed with her. She was a Shia Muslim by the way and no, the sect was not Sunny. Very interesting.
		
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No need to be concerned about it - Wahhabism is a severe form of Islam and Saudi Arabia's dominant faith.  This came up with Trump lauding Saudi Arabia and selling them $Bns worth of military equipment and promising them 'great deals' with the US Defense Companies.  Then Bragger goes on to blame everything on Iran - when in fact it is Saudi Arabia that is by all accounts the source of funding and recruitment for AQ and Daesh.


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## Sweep (May 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Very good point. Also I am lead to believe that they prevent the vast majority of these planned incidents occurring through intelligence. Of course you can not rest on your laurels but as you correctly say, they are hardly 'doing nothing'. In fact I am pretty sure they would be insulted by that accusation.
		
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I am not aware of anyone accusing the security services of doing nothing? All I have heard and read is in support of the great work they do.


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

Val said:



			What would you suggest?
		
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Exactly, it's so easy to find all the excuses do nothing, isn't it!!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Val said:



			What would you suggest?
		
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We leave the security forces to continue with their great work - we will never ever stop someone carrying out an atrocity, that's the blunt truth - there have been terrorists for centuries now and there has never ever been any way to stop them fully - it's impossible. 

Yes there does need to be more work required from police etc when people are being monitored - what I don't exactly know but we cannot pre judge people based on their religion or what country they or their ancestors were born in - that's not far away from Trumps Muslim ban yet that didn't stop him signing a billion dollar arms deal with them 

The simple solution is for the country to stop getting involved in battles on their own soil but then we have also been doing that for centuries and did we expect them to sit back and allow us to kill their people in their country ?


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## Sweep (May 24, 2017)

woody69 said:



			The security services are not 'doing nothing'. I don't have recent figures, but at the start of the year Britain had supposedly foiled 10 potential terrorist attacks over the previous 2 years and had over 550 'live' cases open. They have also convicted nearly 300 individuals on terror related offences in that time.

The problem is, for all that effort, all it takes is one to be successful and it is assumed we are not doing enough.
		
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I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. If you read my post I clearly say that I agreed that the security services were doing a great job under difficult circumstances and that we should fund them to the level they need. My point about "doing nothing is not an option" was in relation to the government and those seeking election in June. IMO the law needs to be changed to allow the detention or tagging of suspects to assist the security services in their work. My doing nothing comment meant that continuing the way we are and tying one arm behind the backs of the security services is not an option. We have to do whatever we can to stop this evil.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Fish said:



			Exactly, it's so easy to find all the excuses do nothing, isn't it!!
		
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No one has suggested do nothing - not one single person has said anything along those lines. Just because people don't think we should ever go along with the radical ideas you have produced doesn't mean they want to sit back and do nothing and suggestions of such are out of order


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This guy and many others were actually born and bred in this country - where do you deport him too ?
		
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I believe his Father had returned to Libya to fight there so his family should have been returned with him.


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## ger147 (May 24, 2017)

Is there any possibility that the usual suspects could lay off their usual tripe just this once???

The bodies are barely cold in the morgue...


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No one has suggested do nothing - not one single person has said anything along those lines. Just because people don't think we should ever go along with the radical ideas you have produced doesn't mean they want to sit back and do nothing and suggestions of such are out of order
		
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So what would you like to see done?


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Is there any possibility that the usual suspects could lay off their usual tripe just this once???

The bodies are barely cold in the morgue...
		
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That's exactly why it needs to be discussed.  Brushing the problem under the carpet does nothing for the casualties and everything for the perpetrators.


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## ger147 (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's exactly why it needs to be discussed.  Brushing the problem under the carpet does nothing for the casualties and everything for the perpetrators.
		
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I have no problem with discussion but that's not what we get on here from the usual few.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe his Father had returned to Libya to fight there so his family should have been returned with him.
		
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What remove the sons and daughters passports just because the father had left ?


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What remove the sons and daughters passports just because the father had left ?
		
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I don't believe he went for a holiday. As Fish suggested a temporary passport would be a good solution where it can be withdrawn for the whole family if they break the residency conditions. If the Son had been deported it would have done us all a favor.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe he went for a holiday. As Fish suggested a temporary passport would be a good solution where it can be withdrawn for the whole family if they break the residency conditions.
		
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The children are British born and bred - you can't give someone a " temporary" passport when born to people living in this country based on the ancestors- that's called judging someone based on their nationality i.e. Pretty much racism.

Where exactly are you going to deport the son ?! He is British


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The children are British born and bred - you can't give someone a " temporary" passport when born to people living in this country based on the ancestors- that's called judging someone based on their nationality i.e. Pretty much racism.

Where exactly are you going to deport the son ?! He is British
		
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You can if you wanted to.  Read Fish's post he explained it very well.   He suggested a temporary passport for anyone coming to live in the UK, if they were to break the terms and conditions then the passport would be taken away along with their citizenship.  I can see that this would be a problem after the second generation though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe his Father had returned to Libya to fight there so his family should have been returned with him.
		
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Has he been interviewed in Libya?  I heard earlier that he has been telling media that he has not yet been interviewed in connection with the atrocity


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2017)

Maybe the solution is for the UK not to meddle in the affairs of other countries and just worry about our own problems?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

The only answer as far as I can see is to have the trust of all communities to report those in the community that they know to be doing or planning wrong.  Because the individuals in any community are the authorities eyes and ears on the ground,

And yet this does not happen in many 'indigenous' communities - where clyping on miscreants in your own community is frowned upon by many in that community.  The ethnic minority communities have to feel responsible to the wider UK public for them to inform the authorities, or they won't.  That means 'they' must feel 'us'.  And that will not happen if we see 'them' as distinctly separate and different - when we need to accept that what makes those communities distinct as part of the wider UK, is no different than what makes a Geordie different from someone from the Home Counties - or a crofter in the western isles.

Unfortunately it is but a fact that much of the rhetoric around Brexit will end up highlighting and playing on the differences between communities and individuals in them - and the similarities are lost.  And it the similarities between communities that bind us together as citizens of the UK and that makes 'them' - 'us'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Maybe the solution is for the UK not to meddle in the affairs of other countries and just worry about our own problems?
		
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So we do not lobby Saudi Arabia to clamp down on support of Daesh terrorism, and if no evidence of that being done is forthcoming we do not threaten sanctions. Because that is interfering in the affairs of other countries...?

Or we let North Korea continue it's merry way developing a long range nuclear warhead missile capability.  Nothing to do with us you say?

Our own problems are relatively insignificant


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## Junior (May 24, 2017)

What I'd like to know is this........5 people have been arrested in association with the attack.  What information do they have now, and what intel have they been able  to obtain in te last 24 hours , that they did not have 48 hours ago? 

Im sure there is a lot we don't know about.....but more needs to be one to stop these terrorists.   Now more than ever.


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## bobmac (May 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			is *no different* than what makes a Geordie different from someone from the Home Counties - or a crofter in the western isles.
		
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Except a Geordie and a crofter in the western isles don't want to murder the children of people living in the Home Counties



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately it is but a fact that much of the rhetoric around *Brexit *

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I cannot believe you have brought Brexit into this.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our own problems are relatively insignificant
		
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Try telling that to the parents and friends of the children who were murdered under the name of Islam.

And to those who believed it was a 'lone wolf', watch this video and tell me how many lone wolves you can count.

[video=youtube;tEHUmrKcmlE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHUmrKcmlE[/video]


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The only answer as far as I can see is to have the trust of all communities to report those in the community that they know to be doing or planning wrong.  Because the individuals in any community are the authorities eyes and ears on the ground,

And yet this does not happen in many 'indigenous' communities - where clyping on miscreants in your own community is frowned upon by many in that community.  The ethnic minority communities have to feel responsible to the wider UK public for them to inform the authorities, or they won't.  That means 'they' must feel 'us'.  And that will not happen if we see 'them' as distinctly separate and different - when we need to accept that what makes those communities distinct as part of the wider UK, is no different than what makes a Geordie different from someone from the Home Counties - or a crofter in the western isles.

Unfortunately it is but a fact that much of the rhetoric around Brexit will end up highlighting and playing on the differences between communities and individuals in them - and the similarities are lost.  And it the similarities between communities that bind us together as citizens of the UK and that makes 'them' - 'us'.
		
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Your talk of communities is exactly whats wrong, we should be a Britiah community not fragmented groups depending on what our religious beliefs are.  Religion needs to be removed from communities and everyone should consider themselves British citizens.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You can if you wanted to.  Read Fish's post he explained it very well.   He suggested a temporary passport for anyone coming to live in the UK, if they were to break the terms and conditions then the passport would be taken away along with their citizenship.  I can see that this would be a problem after the second generation though.
		
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The bomber didn't come and live here though - he was born here , he is a British Citizen by birth - that cannot be removed by law


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## Slime (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The bomber didn't come and live here though - he was born here , he is a British Citizen by birth - that cannot be removed by law
		
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My first wife was born in Africa, she wasn't an African, she was English.


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but the actions that cause havoc and chaos are restricted to the minority to suggest otherwise is clearly wrong 

There is nothing wrong in having different beliefs to others - it's what makes us all different 

Just read your other post and ban Islam and Muslims ?!? Do you suggest the same for any areas of Christianity that have caused issues ? Ban religion based on the minority who try and twist the teachings to justify their actions
		
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Try rereading my post. I didn't say we should. In fact i said i didn't think i twas the answer. I merely suggested that people may wish to discuss it.

The actions of havoc i presume you mean the terrorism.

So what if you go to saudi arabia and try and preach christianity? Will you be allowed to do so freely as you can here with other beliefs.

My thoughts on religion are that they are all as pointless as one another. But if other countries can outlaw religions, would it be a stretch to imagine our country doing the same?


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, because that will not inflame the situation, introduce further division into an country already doing its best to tear itself apart and act as a recruiting tool for potential fundamentalists will it.
		
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I didnt say we should. 

But i also don't think that the country is tearing itself apart either,.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Try rereading my post. I didn't say we should. In fact i said i didn't think i twas the answer. I merely suggested that people may wish to discuss it.

The actions of havoc i presume you mean the terrorism.

So what if you go to saudi arabia and try and preach christianity? Will you be allowed to do so freely as you can here with other beliefs.

My thoughts on religion are that they are all as pointless as one another. But if other countries can outlaw religions, would it be a stretch to imagine our country doing the same?
		
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Yes its a bit stretch and it isnt going to happen, I agree with Socket, we need to fully integrate all people of all ethnic backgrounds into society, some towns have turned almost into ghettos , which cant be good


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes its a bit stretch and it isnt going to happen, I agree with Socket, we need to fully integrate all people of all ethnic backgrounds into society, some towns have turned almost into ghettos , which cant be good
		
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You can't force people to integrate - people have been creating their own societies within towns and cities for decades regardless of religion or ethnics.


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The bomber didn't come and live here though - he was born here , he is a British Citizen by birth - that cannot be removed by law
		
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Change the law!

It seems we're quite happy to keep the status quo and yet home grown terrorists are definitely on the rise, and as such something needs to be changed to stop the root problem, otherwise it's just window dressing. 

When you have a problem of this or any magnitude you identify the key factor, that currently is the 'he was born here' so he's British born and we can't go anything! 

Well we need to! 

 If you have a family like his who came from Libya they would only have temporary passports and citizenship. It is these parents that are also the problem as the 'British born' child is radicalised by them, and they, along with cells from their home country which he had visited and over here exploit this Trojan horse to carry out the heinous act like we have just witnessed. 

I don't care how unfair it sounds, we have to protect our way of life, that now means radical change in our laws do that any family member that is subject to a temporary passport and carries out an act of terrorism, the whole lot go back to the parents country of origin from whence they came. 

It wouldn't surprise me if this 'British born' terrorist had dual nationality, I don't understand this personally, if you want to be a British citizen then you should wave any previous nationality orcang bg association and hold just 1 passport. 

The whole passport and right to citizenship needs addressing as I don't accept this 'he was born here there's nothing we can do' scenario, if that is the case now, then change it, we must kill the core issue that is being exploited.


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes its a bit stretch and it isnt going to happen, I agree with Socket, we need to fully integrate all people of all ethnic backgrounds into society, some towns have turned almost into ghettos , which cant be good
		
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How do we go about that though?

I've seen quite a few releases from religious leaders themselves saying they  need to do more. But you can't force ethnic minorities to mix. If suddenly people were rehoused calls of racism and profiling would ring out. People now come to live here and settle in certain parts of certain towns with no inclinations to grow as part of a current society.

They form their own and try to coexist.


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The children are British born and bred - you can't give someone a " temporary" passport when born to people living in this country based on the ancestors- that's called judging someone based on their nationality i.e. Pretty much racism.

Where exactly are you going to deport the son ?! He is British
		
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If you can't send him to the country of his parents birth then jail him.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Val said:



			If you can't send him to the country of his parents birth then jail him.
		
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Exactly - he is a British citizen by right , no different to anyone else born in this country.
If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Fish said:



			Change the law!

It seems we're quite happy to keep the status quo and yet home grown terrorists are definitely on the rise, and as such something needs to be changed to stop the root problem, otherwise it's just window dressing. 

When you have a problem of this or any magnitude you identify the key factor, that currently is the 'he was born here' so he's British born and we can't go anything! 

Well we need to! 

 If you have a family like his who came from Libya they would only have temporary passports and citizenship. It is these parents that are also the problem as the 'British born' child is radicalised by them, and they, along with cells from their home country which he had visited and over here exploit this Trojan horse to carry out the heinous act like we have just witnessed. 

I don't care how unfair it sounds, we have to protect our way of life, that now means radical change in our laws do that any family member that is subject to a temporary passport and carries out an act of terrorism, the whole lot go back to the parents country of origin from whence they came. 

It wouldn't surprise me if this 'British born' terrorist had dual nationality, I don't understand this personally, if you want to be a British citizen then you should wave any previous nationality orcang bg association and hold just 1 passport. 

The whole passport and right to citizenship needs addressing as I don't accept this 'he was born here there's nothing we can do' scenario, if that is the case now, then change it, we must kill the core issue that is being exploited.
		
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What happens if Mum and Dad were also born here ? Where exactly are you sending these people back to when you take away their passport ? 

What about a non Muslim terrorist with a British passport ? Or would it just be Muslim terrorists from certain countries who get placed under temporary citizenship all because of the country they are born in ? 

How many British citizens have been killed by Irish Terrorists over the decades ? Was the same radical ideas of giving the Irish Temporary passports banded around because some of their countrymen were terrorists ?


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## Fish (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What happens if Mum and Dad were also born here ? Where exactly are you sending these people back to when you take away their passport ? 

What about a non Muslim terrorist with a British passport ? Or would it just be Muslim terrorists from certain countries who get placed under temporary citizenship all because of the country they are born in ? 

How many British citizens have been killed by Irish Terrorists over the decades ? Was the same radical ideas of giving the Irish Temporary passports banded around because some of their countrymen were terrorists ?
		
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But this individual's parents were from Libya, so this was a perfect scenario, and if that had stopped this heinous act, then it was worth all the changing of law and upsetting of a few innocents.

Personally you're just coming across as argumentative with non related scenarios, I appreciate 1 glove don't fit all but just keeping to the status quo whilst this issue rises and gets worse, which it is and will until we plug it, doesn't solve squatt.

Maybe you need something closer to home to happen to you for you to change your liberal opinion?  We need radical change for this current growing threat, it won't be pretty and it won't be popular, but what we have now with these british born trojan horses isn't working and is being exploited, and that has nothing to do with resources or money or dare I say, Brexit.  

The issue is we have many british born suicide bombers amongst us and we need to create a fear factor to not only them, although that won't work on it's own, but to all their immediate family over here, all or nothing, keep them all in check and break the ranks and maybe some communities will then open up a bit.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Fish said:



			But this individual's parents were from Libya, so this was a perfect scenario, and if that had stopped this heinous act, then it was worth all the changing of law and upsetting of a few innocents.

Personally you're just coming across as argumentative with non related scenarios, I appreciate 1 glove don't fit all but just keeping to the status quo whilst this issue rises and gets worse, which it is and will until we plug it, doesn't solve squatt.

Maybe you need something closer to home to happen to you for you to change your liberal opinion?  We need radical change for this current growing threat, it won't be pretty and it won't be popular, but what we have now with these british born trojan horses isn't working and is being exploited, and that has nothing to do with resources or money or dare I say, Brexit.  

The issue is we have many british born suicide bombers amongst us and we need to create a fear factor to not only them, although that won't work on it's own, but to all their immediate family over here, all or nothing, keep them all in check and break the ranks and maybe some communities will then open up a bit.
		
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Things maybe do need to change but sorry it's certainly not the idea you are coming up which is beyond radical and is basically judging people based on the country of where their parents come from - that's bordering on racism. Im not arguing I'm trying to show you the faults in such a radical idea that you are trying to fit into this one scenario- I have highlighted other issues that have happened and that can happen . Terrorists don't just come from Libya or Syria or indeed just Muslim countries. The country has been at the mercy of terrorists for decades now - we lived in fear of the IRA for decades. Your idea wouldn't have stopped this bomber just as it won't stop any future bombings 

Just because someone's parents were from Libya doesn't mean they should automatically have a star above their name as possible terrorists. 

If someone wants to become a fundamentalist then it won't matter to them where their parents are from - and putting fear factor into them ? They don't care , they are more than likely going to die as what they see for a cause what happens after they wouldn't care about 

I have no idea what Brexit has to do with anything 

To help UK there are a few things we can do - 

1. Stay out of politics in the Middle East - ISIS etc was created out of the Iraq War which we were smack in the middle off. We have got involved in trying to change regimes in these Middle East countries 

2. Give our security forces the full resources both in footfall and budget terms to ensure they can cover and investigate as much as fully possible - they already do a fantastic job with limited resources and have foiled multiple terror threats over the years , increase those resources and you will increase the productivity


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Exactly - he is a British citizen by right , no different to anyone else born in this country.
If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws.
		
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You are being very argumentative for the sake of it.  Rather than decrying anything said against these people why not come up with a solution yourself. Or are you content with the way things are? Saying "If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws" is accepting that nothing can be done and we should just have to wait for the next bomb or truck mowing people down as it's wrong to change the law.


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

I believe we need to arm the police and get them back on the beat, also have an armed response unit in every town or county. I get it these bombers don't fear death but if the sheer threat that they'll be taken down before they get to commit their crime makes them think twice about it hen it's a price worth paying.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are being very argumentative for the sake of it.  Rather than decrying anything said against these people why not come up with a solution yourself. Or are you content with the way things are? Saying "If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws" is accepting that nothing can be done and we should just have to wait for the next bomb or truck mowing people down as it's wrong to change the law.
		
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I would suggest before throwing accusations at me you should look at a few posts where i have posted what we as the UK can do to find a way to reduce the affect of terrorists to the country 

To change the law it needs to be fullproof and it can be seen to make a dramatic change - nothing that has been said would do that , nothing that has been said would have stopped this guy in his desire to cause havoc. Terrorists have been alive in the U.K. For decades and decades - if someone is that determined to create havoc it will be nearly impossible to stop them - that's not saying that nothing can be done to stop them , that's facing reality that it's a impossible task - yet our security services have done amazing job by fooling so many. As this talk of passports etc I'm sorry but it won't make a jot of difference - it wouldn't stop people coming to the UK and it won't stop people creating terror -


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2017)

Val said:



			I believe we need to arm the police and get them back on the beat, also have an armed response unit in every town or county. I get it these bombers don't fear death but if the sheer threat that they'll be taken down before they get to commit their crime makes them think twice about it hen it's a price worth paying.
		
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But they don't walk around with Tee shirts saying "I'm a Terrorist"

Wearing normal clothes, with a rucksack , no distinguishing features, how do you tell, 

you cant, so the armed response unit as above is pretty useless in this scenario.

We have a balance in this country between Personal Freedoms and the rules of Law, if you increase the rules of law--IE Stop & Search-, then there is a reduction in our freedoms,
If there is a reduction in our freedoms then the Terrorists are winning

There is no simple answer, but I agree with Fish that everyone on a watch list needs to be interviewed and tagged and told they will be monitored and basically left in no doubt that if they don't like it here, they are free to leave, but if they are suspected of trying anything then its "Gitmo" or whatever our version of Gitmo is.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would suggest before throwing accusations at me you should look at a few posts where i have posted what we as the UK can do to find a way to reduce the affect of terrorists to the country 

To change the law it needs to be fullproof and it can be seen to make a dramatic change - nothing that has been said would do that , nothing that has been said would have stopped this guy in his desire to cause havoc. Terrorists have been alive in the U.K. For decades and decades - if someone is that determined to create havoc it will be nearly impossible to stop them - that's not saying that nothing can be done to stop them , that's facing reality that it's a impossible task - yet our security services have done amazing job by fooling so many. As this talk of passports etc I'm sorry but it won't make a jot of difference - it wouldn't stop people coming to the UK and it won't stop people creating terror -
		
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Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that  encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long.  It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow.  Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost.  Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But they don't walk around with Tee shirts saying "I'm a Terrorist"

Wearing normal clothes, with a rucksack , no distinguishing features, how do you tell, 

you cant, so the armed response unit as above is pretty useless in this scenario.

We have a balance in this country between Personal Freedoms and the rules of Law, if you increase the rules of law--IE Stop & Search-, then there is a reduction in our freedoms,
If there is a reduction in our freedoms then the Terrorists are winning

There is no simple answer, but I agree with Fish that everyone on a watch list needs to be interviewed and tagged and told they will be monitored and basically left in no doubt that if they don't like it here, they are free to leave, but if they are suspected of trying anything then its "Gitmo" or whatever our version of Gitmo is.
		
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You can't tell I agree but if an armed cop makes them think twice then job done. Let's be honest, would that cretin have walked into the Manchester arena with a bag of explosives if there was even a slight chance he may have had to walk past or even speak to an armed cop?


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that  encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long.  It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow.  Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost.  Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.
		
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I agree, the surprising thing is the area of Manchester that this cretin was from in Manchester is very much multicultural and inclusive, it's not what you see in areas of Oldham, Rochdale and parts of West Yorkshire and Lancashire which can be intimidating to drive through never mind walk through


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

Val said:



			You can't tell I agree but if an armed cop makes them think twice then job done. Let's be honest, would that cretin have walked into the Manchester arena with a bag of explosives if there was even a slight chance he may have had to walk past or even speak to an armed cop?
		
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Unfortunately I think he would have Val - when he has got to the stage of carry a suicide vest on him then I think he has got past the second guessing stage - if he gets stopped he then just explodes it and kills a cop plus a few others - not his intended target but it would still cause chaos and havoc. 

There is no perfect answer to stop these people beyond removing our nose from up the Americas backside and leave areas like Syria etc. Over the last decade or so Brits and US plus the other Allies have been in their country trying to get the country to work the way we want it to - multiple US Presidents wanted to cleanse the counties of their dictators and replace them with democracy but it's blown back in their faces and now we all face the consequences and fear that has created.


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## Val (May 24, 2017)

It's all hypothetical Phil as we'll never know. It's a bit like having a nuclear deterrent, who knows who's radar we would be on if we didn't have one.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that  encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long.  It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow.  Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost.  Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.
		
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It's not a new thing - Irish , West Indian , Indian , Pakistani - they have been creating areas in this country for decades now and every single normally gets identified by origins - British Indian , British West Indian etc etc - same sigh Muslims - only have to see the responses from the British Muslim society - they denounce the actions of the minority.

British has been multicultural for centuries- being British isnt anything beyond being born in the U.K. - being British is full of different strains from all over the world - you can't suddenly undo decades of development. People can speak whatever language they wish , they can practise whatever religion they wish , they can live their life anyway they wish - provided its within the laws of our country.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Religion has to be at the heart of it.  It may be an extreme form of it but all the same it's in the name of religion.  We seem to be frightened to admit and face up to it as we may be called racist.  These perpetrators carry out their crimes in the name of Islam and are Muslims, if you look at the Muslim world there are wars and religious hatred all over, that extends now to countries where they have moved to.   I am not suggesting all muslims are the problem but I cant ignore the fact that something in their communities create this hatred for others and even themselves, we cannot sit back and ignore it in the name of Political Correctness.
		
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Some people have a very short attention span. Christian's in the U.K. have been blowing up members of the public including women and children since I can remember but I don't see people putting religious tags on these terrorists.


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## IanM (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			- provided its within the laws of our country....
		
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Absolutely.  Now how do we do deal with this element?  At the moment no action is being taken in case it's labelled racist or we excuse it by saying others have done it for years.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2017)

IanM said:



			Absolutely.  Now how do we do deal with this element?  At the moment no action is being taken in case it's labelled racist or we excuse it by saying others have done it for years.
		
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Plenty of action is been taken - our security forces are working non stop to foil terror attacks and multiple people have been arrested under terrorism act


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unfortunately I think he would have Val - when he has got to the stage of carry a suicide vest on him then I think he has got past the second guessing stage - if he gets stopped he then just explodes it and kills a cop plus a few others - not his intended target but it would still cause chaos and havoc. 

There is no perfect answer to stop these people beyond removing our nose from up the Americas backside and leave areas like Syria etc. Over the last decade or so Brits and US plus the other Allies have been in their country trying to get the country to work the way we want it to - multiple US Presidents wanted to cleanse the counties of their dictators and replace them with democracy but it's blown back in their faces and now we all face the consequences and fear that has created.
		
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you have certainly changed your tune in the last couple of years. not so long ago you were spouting that we were saving these countries from dictators.


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## IanM (May 24, 2017)

Horses and stable doors,.....   e.g., I don't think we removed passports from returning fighters as it was contary to human rights act.  Seems silly doesn't it


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2017)

If we were starting from scratch then Robin I agree there would be a lot of mileage in your point about passports, unfortunately that will never happen, we certainly need drastic action, but to me it starts with the funding and resourcing, including increase in manpower, of the security services, once that is done they should identify and advise on the scale of the problem and how we should tackle it, if they suggest radical changes to our laws then we should support them.


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## HankMarvin (May 24, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			you have certainly changed your tune in the last couple of years. not so long ago you were spouting that we were saving these countries from dictators.
		
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good point


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## Slime (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Exactly - he is a British citizen by right , *no different to anyone else born in this country.*
If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws.
		
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I would regard myself as far more British than him ....................... far more.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a new thing - Irish , West Indian , Indian , Pakistani - they have been creating areas in this country for decades now and every single normally gets identified by origins - British Indian , British West Indian etc etc - same sigh Muslims - only have to see the responses from the British Muslim society - they denounce the actions of the minority.

British has been multicultural for centuries- being British isnt anything beyond being born in the U.K. - being British is full of different strains from all over the world - you can't suddenly undo decades of development. People can speak whatever language they wish , they can practise whatever religion they wish , they can live their life anyway they wish - provided its within the laws of our country.
		
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But its not the same. Irish , West Indian , Indian, these people have integrated well into British Society and dont have intentions to change the rest of society to adopt to their particular culture. Irish are a different case as they were British not so long ago and have always lived in the UK.   The others dont want to have a particular type of law  applying to them, they tend to be as British as anyone. 

Britain has not been multicultural for centuries, it may have seen small numbers of peoples come here from places they have been discriminated but these people dont reside in separate communities with separate cultures. i repeat, multiculturalism is a failure and the product of the leftist elite who are responsible for much of the current  breakdown in society.


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## Fish (May 25, 2017)

I don't think resources are an issue, there's no way we are experiencing cut backs on national security activities like this imo. 

We always seem to be able to piece everything together about individuals and all their movements and associations AFTER they have committed a terrorist act, so for me it's only our current laws that are not allowing us to arrest, hold, interrogate and imprison theses home grown trojans who come from families that mainly have come from the Middle East and have been known to travel back & forth, although their parents allegedly fled that country to live here in peace, so why do their children go back there if it's not to be trained in readiness of carrying out a terrorist act?  

No amount of resources or extra intel can address this growing issue more than is what's being done now, it's a numbers game now as there are so many amongst us hiding behind the fact they have British passports and can move freely. 

This is why there needs to be a change in passports or ID's so that everyone coming here to live from another country has a completely different, and imo, temporary residence passport so that movements of these people and their siblings which irrelevant of being born here, also have a different passport or ID so that when any member of that family commits an act of terrorism the whole family is removed. 

I really don't care if it seems unjust, you've got to break the ranks from within and some siblings from a family may not agree with what they know is going on and intel could be gained to stop these attacks, but to not change anything within the fabric of our laws is no longer productive imo against this new growing threat from within. 

I would now want if not insist all family members of the Manchester terrorist deported back to Libya from where there parents came from, irrelevant of any being born here, they all lost their rights to be British citizens and imo were all fully aware of his beliefs and potential actions. 

Change is a dirty word for some, but sometimes it's necessary and that time is now!  Its no good harping on about the past, or about Blairs war or anything or anyone in a past tense, this is happening now and isn't going away anytime soon, so our laws need changing now to protect our way of life so we can go about it freely without the fear that terrorism brings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

The Security Services have been cut back year after year, they are arresting people and pieceing stuff together because they have a definite target and they zoom in, prior to the attack he was 1 of hundreds on a watch list.

Squaddies are on the streets to release Police to other duties, we obviously haven't got enough Police then.

Whether you like it ir not and whether I agree or not, no Government is going to change the status of millions of current British Passport holders.


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

These people that attend the rallies. Can't they just throw them out, or is that too simple?
That's what I'd do.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			These people that attend the rallies. Can't they just throw them out, or is that too simple?
That's what I'd do.
		
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It would be a good start.
To commit a crime someone needs means, motivation and opportunity 
These terrorists certainly have the means and the motivation but if you remove them from the country, you remove the opportunity.
To identify these terrorists before they strike needs insider intelligence and thats from people in their own community.
There are no lone wolves in my opinion


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			These people that attend the rallies. Can't they just throw them out, or is that too simple?
That's what I'd do.
		
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Again throw them out to where ? Most of them are British Citizens ?

And does it include the EDL rallies where hatred and racism is also openly displayed ?


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## Papas1982 (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again throw them out to where ? Most of them are British Citizens ?

And does it include the EDL rallies where hatred and racism is also openly displayed ?
		
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Both groups need to be dealt with. 

But one group is decrying what they think has happened to england. The other wants the place to burn.

I'm not saying on is better than the other, but i can see quite clearly how one group upsets a bigger amount of people.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



*I don't think resources are an issue*, there's no way we are experiencing cut backs on national security activities like this imo. 

*We always seem to be able to piece everything together about individuals and all their movements and associations AFTER they have committed a terrorist act,* so for me it's only our current laws that are not allowing us to arrest, hold, interrogate and imprison theses home grown trojans who come from families that mainly have come from the Middle East and have been known to travel back & forth, although their parents allegedly fled that country to live here in peace, so why do their children go back there if it's not to be trained in readiness of carrying out a terrorist act?  

No amount of resources or extra intel can address this growing issue more than is what's being done now, it's a numbers game now as there are so many amongst us hiding behind the fact they have British passports and can move freely. 

This is why there needs to be a change in passports or ID's so that everyone coming here to live from another country has a completely different, and imo, temporary residence passport so that movements of these people and their siblings which irrelevant of being born here, also have a different passport or ID so that when any member of that family commits an act of terrorism the whole family is removed. 

I really don't care if it seems unjust, you've got to break the ranks from within and some siblings from a family may not agree with what they know is going on and intel could be gained to stop these attacks, but to not change anything within the fabric of our laws is no longer productive imo against this new growing threat from within. 

I would now want if not insist all family members of the Manchester terrorist deported back to Libya from where there parents came from, irrelevant of any being born here, they all lost their rights to be British citizens and imo were all fully aware of his beliefs and potential actions. 

Change is a dirty word for some, but sometimes it's necessary and that time is now!  Its no good harping on about the past, or about Blairs war or anything or anyone in a past tense, this is happening now and isn't going away anytime soon, so our laws need changing now to protect our way of life so we can go about it freely without the fear that terrorism brings.
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the reason we can piece together all the information after the act is that there are 100s, if not 1000s of police and members of the intelligence agencies all working on one task and one task only.  To find out as much as they can about the specific perpetrator(s) movements and affiliations.  If you multiplied the police force and intelligence agencies ten fold then I am pretty sure they would be able to complete such in depth surveillance and monitoring on all these 'potential' terrorists. 

And as for harping on about the past, then one mans harping on is another mans understanding of the reasons why people are doing such acts so they can hopefully learn from them and put in other initiatives to prevent them happening in the future.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again throw them out to where ? Most of them are British Citizens ?
		
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Any Islamic country that practices Sharia law.



Liverpoolphil said:



			And does it include the EDL rallies where hatred and racism is also openly displayed ?
		
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I dont like terrorists either


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who openly demonstrate against our way of life, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who openly demonstrate against our way of life, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .
		
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All fine words, please expand on "a measured response"


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who openly demonstrate against our way of life, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .
		
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Pretty spot on I'd say. 

Also known as " When in Rome ......."


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

Slime said:



			I would regard myself as far more British than him ....................... far more.
		
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Likewise, and I bet he regarded himself more Libyan than British


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			All fine words, please expand on "a measured response"
		
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Well I'm not talking about shooting people in the streets, but quite happy to start with all the people on the terrorist watch list.

There are there for a reason, round them up, deport any obvious ones, tag those who stay and watch them, any problems, chuck em out. 

Law abiding peaceful citizens of whatever background have nothing to fear from this, but those who incite need to be booted out


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			All fine words, please expand on "a measured response"
		
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Cut their hands off


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well I'm not talking about shooting people in the streets, but quite happy to start with all the people on the terrorist watch list.

There are there for a reason, round them up, deport any obvious ones, tag those who stay and watch them, any problems, chuck em out. 

Law abiding peaceful citizens of whatever background have nothing to fear from this, but those who incite need to be booted out
		
Click to expand...

Boot them out to were? What if these countries we decide to send them to refuse to take them, 

When did we decide to start judging people without evidence?

And again if we start booting people out we may as well ban all law abiding people from travelling abroad to any country we can't trust, because all you're doing is putting a big target on the backs of our citizens abroad.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

Now now Uncle Bob &#128550;


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Cut their hands off
		
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How does that stop them spreading their message of hate, surely you need to cut their tongues out as well.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Boot them out to were? What if these countries we decide to send them to refuse to take them, 

When did we decide to start judging people without evidence?

And again if we start booting people out we may as well ban all law abiding people from travelling abroad to any country we can't trust, because all you're doing is putting a big target on the backs of our citizens abroad.
		
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Ok so please tell us what you would do, give us your views


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again throw them out to where ? Most of them are British Citizens ?
		
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And they are repaying us how?
By spreading hatred and contempt for our country.
And please don't call it "their" country.
They are here by proxy.
Round the lot of them up, and get shot of them.
Or get them half way across the channel on an old ferry and torpedo the *******.
Because they are of no use to Britain.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Now now Uncle Bob &#63014;
		
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I'm serious.
If they are so keen to live under Shari Law, then they can't complain about being punished under their own rules.


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

There is absolutely no way to avoid these sorts of incidents completely unless we develop the ability to read minds. 

Resorting to bully boy tactics where we deport anyone with a funny accent, brown skin or he refuses to bend the knee to the Union flag is empty rhetoric that always gets stirred up after such a terrible event.

The best thing we can do is continue to press for peace and help those who come from a different background to integrate into our country. People may well be hurt along the way but that is the way of the world. Some things are inevitable; you will NEVER expunge hate and fear from society. We can only try to minimize it through an inclusive attitude that seeks to learn and benefit from each other.

That may sound like idealistic nonsense but it's the truth.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

I think sharia law should be banned here, our shores, our laws,


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok so please tell us what you would do, give us your views
		
Click to expand...

I've gave my views a few times on this thread, we need to trust the security services, we need to resource them correctly.

I accept we will never ever catch or stop everyone, but we won't do that by mass deportations either.

We need to work together with all communities and instill that sense of right and wrong and tolerance through education.

The ones we get the evidence against I'd lock them up and throw away the key and for those who we catch who commit acts of terrorism I'd bring back hanging.

I have no issue with punishing people, but mass deportations or labelling certain sections in society with the same brush is a backward step to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			There is absolutely no way to avoid these sorts of incidents completely unless we develop the ability to read minds. 

Resorting to bully boy tactics where we deport anyone with a funny accent, brown skin or he refuses to bend the knee to the Union flag is empty rhetoric that always gets stirred up after such a terrible event.

The best thing we can do is continue to press for peace and help those who come from a different background to integrate into our country. People may well be hurt along the way but that is the way of the world. Some things are inevitable; you will NEVER expunge hate and fear from society. We can only try to minimize it through an inclusive attitude that seeks to learn and benefit from each other.

That may sound like idealistic nonsense but it's the truth.
		
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Well said :thup:


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well I'm not talking about shooting people in the streets, but quite happy to start with all the people on the terrorist watch list.

There are there for a reason, round them up, deport any obvious ones, tag those who stay and watch them, any problems, chuck em out. 

Law abiding peaceful citizens of whatever background have nothing to fear from this, but those who incite need to be booted out
		
Click to expand...

Perfect. The EDL/BNP are also pretty good at inciting hatred. Where are we shipping them to?

There is some absolute nonsense being posted on this thread, and most of it is based around shipping out people they don't like. The best is "shipping out their families". Which is cool as a policy goes, as long as the same people don't mind being sent to prison because their cousin twice removed stole a mars bar. 

This sort of issue can only be resolved by clever solutions thought through and not knee jerk reactions. And I sincerely doubt that "kicking everyone out" will ever be considered as a clever solution


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Boot them out to were? What if these countries we decide to send them to refuse to take them, 

When did we decide to start judging people without evidence?

And again if we start booting people out we may as well ban all law abiding people from travelling abroad to any country we can't trust, because all you're doing is putting a big target on the backs of our citizens abroad.
		
Click to expand...

Send them to Gruinard, keep them on the British Isles but where we tell them


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I think sharia law should be banned here, our shores, our laws,
		
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Other than reading from the UKIP manual, what exactly about Sharia law do you have issues with? https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Other than reading from the UKIP manual, what exactly about Sharia law do you have issues with? https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

Click to expand...

I have an issue because they exit at all.  There is no room for any court or law other than the law of the land.  Sharia is a tool that creates division and as such has no room in our country.  Why do Muslims have a need for it if they are British.


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## woody69 (May 25, 2017)

Good to see how the anti-Muslim bigots are continuing to be "useful idiots" for ISIS. Fairly apparent with some of the responses in this thread.

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/24...nti-muslim-bigots-are-useful-idiots-for-isis/ - Good article. I get that a few people will bluster and moan at the premise of the article, because hey no one likes being called an idiot do they.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Perfect. The EDL/BNP are also pretty good at inciting hatred. Where are we shipping them to?

There is some absolute nonsense being posted on this thread, and most of it is based around shipping out people they don't like. The best is "shipping out their families". Which is cool as a policy goes, as long as the same people don't mind being sent to prison because their cousin twice removed stole a mars bar. 

This sort of issue can only be resolved by clever solutions thought through and not knee jerk reactions. And I sincerely doubt that "*kicking everyone out*" will ever be considered as a clever solution
		
Click to expand...

Who's exaggerating now!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			I don't think resources are an issue, there's no way we are experiencing cut backs on national security activities like this imo. 

We always seem to be able to piece everything together about individuals and all their movements and associations AFTER they have committed a terrorist act, so for me it's only our current laws that are not allowing us to arrest, hold, interrogate and imprison theses home grown trojans who come from families that mainly have come from the Middle East and have been known to travel back & forth, although their parents allegedly fled that country to live here in peace, so why do their children go back there if it's not to be trained in readiness of carrying out a terrorist act?  

No amount of resources or extra intel can address this growing issue more than is what's being done now, it's a numbers game now as there are so many amongst us hiding behind the fact they have British passports and can move freely. 

This is why there needs to be a change in passports or ID's so that everyone coming here to live from another country has a completely different, and imo, temporary residence passport so that movements of these people and their siblings which irrelevant of being born here, also have a different passport or ID so that when any member of that family commits an act of terrorism the whole family is removed. 

I really don't care if it seems unjust, you've got to break the ranks from within and some siblings from a family may not agree with what they know is going on and intel could be gained to stop these attacks, but to not change anything within the fabric of our laws is no longer productive imo against this new growing threat from within. 

I would now want if not insist all family members of the Manchester terrorist deported back to Libya from where there parents came from, irrelevant of any being born here, they all lost their rights to be British citizens and imo were all fully aware of his beliefs and potential actions. 

Change is a dirty word for some, but sometimes it's necessary and that time is now!  Its no good harping on about the past, or about Blairs war or anything or anyone in a past tense, this is happening now and isn't going away anytime soon, so our laws need changing now to protect our way of life so we can go about it freely without the fear that terrorism brings.
		
Click to expand...

Good post .


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I have an issue because they exit at all.  There is no room for any court or law other than the law of the land.  Sharia is a tool that creates division and as such has no room in our country.  Why do Muslims have a need for it if they are British.
		
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Have you read my link? And actually read, as opposed to just opening it, thinking "pah, liberal rubbish", and closing it? I quote "Most are Sharia 'councils' set up to make decisions on purely religious matters, although there are some bodies that mix Sharia principles with legally binding arbitration. But none can overrule the regular courts." I don't see our courts ruling on detailed purely religious matters, do you?



SocketRocket said:



			Who's exaggerating now!
		
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 You've avoided reading the rest of this thread I assume then? To be fair, I wish I had as well.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Other than reading from the UKIP manual, what exactly about Sharia law do you have issues with? https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

Click to expand...

Please don't align me with ukip or any organisation, I'm just a bloke on a golf forum who is cheesed off with our inability to deal with this problem and is throwing out ideas that may be rubbish, may be good, but it makes me feel better.

My feeling towards sharia law is that the average person in the street knows nothing about it, it's public image (wrongly) is one of barbaric punishments which we see images of from abroad , it is immediately seen as devisive as it is one law for this community and one law for another.
So you can either educate the whole population , which comes over as advertising, or you do the simple thing and ban it.
Our laws are good enough for all people who live here.

And while I'm on about it, I'd ban the burka, (headscarves are fine),I'd ban segregation by sex in all schools including traditional all boys/girls schools.
Anybody who cannot speak English to be given lessons

All the above are barriers to integration, break down the barriers, kick out the haters and let the peaceful people live their lives


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

woody69 said:



			Good to see how the anti-Muslim bigots are continuing to be "useful idiots" for ISIS. Fairly apparent with some of the responses in this thread.

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/24...nti-muslim-bigots-are-useful-idiots-for-isis/ - Good article. I get that a few people will bluster and moan at the premise of the article, because hey no one likes being called an idiot do they.
		
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Interesting article for sure


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who openly demonstrate against our way of life, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .
		
Click to expand...

So why when Irish Christians were killing innocents in this country was the response not the same ? 

Yes people who commit acts of crime should be punished - if they are a British Citizen then they are punished under our laws and the laws they should abide by as a British Citizen - you can't remove their passport if born in this country and where exactly are they "going to be sent too" ? 

As for "integration into British society" - what exactly does that actually mean ? Are they allowed to practise only Christianity ? They must speak English as a first language ? Only wearing English clothes ? 

Surely as long as people act within the laws of the land then there is no issues - there are no doubt millions of non British leaving in perfect peace in the U.K. - non of the actions mentioned on here would have stopped what happened in Manchester 

We don't tolerate what has happened - no one has even suggested that and I have no doubt the bombers know that - but they don't care. What is this "measured response"


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

I'll just light another candle and have a quiet moment

It'll be fine after that


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well I'm not talking about shooting people in the streets, but quite happy to start with all the people on the terrorist watch list.

There are there for a reason, round them up, deport any obvious ones, tag those who stay and watch them, any problems, chuck em out. 

Law abiding peaceful citizens of whatever background have nothing to fear from this, but those who incite need to be booted out
		
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Sorry, but this is a classic over-reaction to an obscene terrorist incident!

The entire basis of UK/English Law would be undermined if what you suggest was implemented!

As for 'inciting'... There are already sufficient laws to cover real offenders. The ability to (peacefully) protest/demonstrate is a fundamental right and must be protected, otherwise the terrorists will have had a victory - by turning UK into a 'police state'! 

It is up to Security Services/Police to gather evidence and establish a case to prosecute via laws already in existence! They DO have some fairly draconian powers - provided they can identify the possible perpetrators! I'm certain there'll be some 'reviewing' of how this incident wasn't caught - as there DID seem to be some flags raised! If it's a 'resources' issue, then that would seem to relatively easily addressed, though can never guarantee complete safety!


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			As for 'inciting'... There are already sufficient laws to cover real offenders. The ability to (peacefully) protest/demonstrate is a fundamental right and must be protected, otherwise the terrorists will have had a victory - by turning UK into a 'police state'!
		
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So you think the demonstration I linked to in post 129 should be allowed?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			I agree, the surprising thing is the area of Manchester that this cretin was from in Manchester is very much multicultural and inclusive, it's not what you see in areas of Oldham, Rochdale and parts of West Yorkshire and Lancashire *which can be intimidating to drive through never mind walk through*

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Rather like how I felt about areas of Glasgow in the 60s and 70s - areas that had a 'culture' rather different from mine, and as a result areas that we never went near...however four decades on things have changed.  But it takes a long time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Some people have a very short attention span. Christian's in the U.K. have been blowing up members of the public including women and children since I can remember but I don't see people putting religious tags on these terrorists.
		
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eh?  if you refer to the IRA and the UDA/UFF etc I think these groups were clearly identified as being from the Catholic and Protestant communities - but as you know the issue was not one of religion.


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## adam6177 (May 25, 2017)

this thread shows exactly why this situation wont improve for a long time....we as a country are too soft, too frightened to upset/offend anyone, anyone who stands and says what they believe is branded a bigot and a racist.

A day will come when something snaps and we will have a civil war.  It wont be pretty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who *openly demonstrate against our way of life*, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .
		
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Bit like anarchists then - yup - chuck em out or lock em up...just one step along the road we go...


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## Fish (May 25, 2017)

We don't get the opportunity to punish them, they blow themselves up along with innocent civilians!!


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit like anarchists then - yup - chuck em out or lock em up...just one step along the road we go...
		
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There might just be a slight difference between someone marching to ban the bomb and someone else conversing with known Islamic Terrorists!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			There is absolutely no way to avoid these sorts of incidents completely unless we develop the ability to read minds. 

Resorting to bully boy tactics where we deport anyone with a funny accent, brown skin or he refuses to bend the knee to the Union flag is empty rhetoric that always gets stirred up after such a terrible event.

The best thing we can do is continue to press for peace and help those who come from a different background to integrate into our country. People may well be hurt along the way but that is the way of the world. Some things are inevitable; you will NEVER expunge hate and fear from society. We can only try to minimize it through an inclusive attitude that seeks to learn and benefit from each other.

That may sound like idealistic nonsense but it's the truth.
		
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...and maybe also cut off relationships and accept the economic hit that would result from stopping arms supplies to Saudi Arabia...where Wahhabism is the dominate and very severe version of Islam from which the Salafi Jihadism at the core of Daesh/ISIS and AQ is justified.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...e-jihad-malcolm-lambert-review-patrick-french


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			We don't get the opportunity to punish them, they blow themselves up along with innocent civilians!!
		
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The ones spouting their crap at rallies don't though Robin.
If we can round up football hooligans from what is seen on CCTV footage, why can't we do the same with these oxygen thieves


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			And they are repaying us how?
By spreading hatred and contempt for our country.
And please don't call it "their" country.
They are here by proxy.
Round the lot of them up, and get shot of them.
Or get them half way across the channel on an old ferry and torpedo the *******.
Because they are of no use to Britain.
		
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They ? The lot of them ? 

All sorts of generic terms there Smiffy ? Who exactly do you mean by "they or them" 

Someone being born in this country isn't here by proxy he is here by birth - the same as anyone else born in this country


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Send them to Gruinard, keep them on the British Isles but where we tell them
		
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As it happens my cousin used to look after Gruinard Island and graze sheep there.  It's anthrax free these days (not that I'm suggesting that you had that in mind)


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			Excellent debates and dialog from individuals on Sky News clearly stating that anyone who is saying this isn't about religion or that religion isn't behind all the attacks we endure, is kidding themselves!

All the wordings and texts are real, it's simply that some individuals interpret them differently, some of these speakers also go on to say that again this idea that weak or vulnerable individuals are targeted, is a myth! 

Yes, there is no doubt radicalisation goes on but individuals who are brought up with or around these more hostile and hatred variations of Islam towards the west or anyone that doesn't follow those jihadist ideals, volunteer and make themselves available to the terror groups who then simply use them as weapons for their own agenda.  

What I don't ever quite get my head around is, we go on about being a multicultural country and we are happy to welcome people from anywhere in the world, but for me there has to be a stronger sense of integration.  

Nobody should come over and set up in areas that only dominate those nationalities, religious beliefs or faiths, and then make no effort to mix with western society and only go on to complain and demonstrate against our western views and laws and more importantly, make no effort to speak our language.

Change has to start somewhere, more worrying is that there are areas in my city, and possibly others, that even I wouldn't venture out on my own too late into the night.  

We have already had some situations where young women walking home from nightclubs have been attacked and beaten by young Muslim men who don't agree with the way they are dressed etc!

If these young men are like this now within our country and have probably been born here, then they are typical of the issues and problems we face and are possibly being taught this way by their parents, and if that is the case, then before these young men become fully fledged homegrown terrorists, if there parents have not been born here and still hold dual nationality in their birth country, then they need getting rid of back to where they allegedly fled from, because quite simply, we cannot have these homegrown terrorists thinking they can come and go as they please and believing there's nothing we can do before it's too late and they've blown some people up because they hold a British passport.

All British passports and citizenship for people coming to our country to set up new lives needs to be temporary, if any serious laws are broken or if we know of teachings which can or could lead to serious terrorist events, those passports are then withdrawn and they, parents, son's daughters and everyone associated to them whether born here or not, are flown immediately out back to their parents origin.

No detention centres, no red tape, it's a temporary passport and it can be withdrawn immediately.

This is no time to pander to the rights of any individuals, we make our laws, they are abided by or you run the risk of being deported back to your place of birth and any sons or daughters born here lose their rights as there citizenship is only based on their parents temporary passport/dual-nationality.

It's time to take the gloves off...
		
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This This this this this. Vote for FISH !!!!!!!!


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			There is absolutely no way to avoid these sorts of incidents completely unless we develop the ability to read minds. 

Resorting to bully boy tactics where we deport anyone with a funny accent, brown skin or he refuses to bend the knee to the Union flag is empty rhetoric that always gets stirred up after such a terrible event.

*The best thing we can do is continue to press for peace* and help those who come from a different background to integrate into our country. *People may well be hurt along the way* but that is the way of the world. Some things are inevitable; you will NEVER expunge hate and fear from society. We can only try to minimize it through an inclusive attitude that seeks to learn and benefit from each other.

That may sound like idealistic nonsense but it's the truth.
		
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Press for peace ? How ?These zealots only want absolute control in a society of their choosing ,, not one that this country subscribes too , we are a christian country are we not ?No way should we be changing our way of life for what , at the end of the day , are basically immigrants\guests in our country , if they want an Islamic (or any other religious based state )the feel free to F*** off to one, DO not try to change us .

_*People may well get hurt along the way ?  *_Are you serious ? No one , not one person should be hurt , no one should have a family member not return home after an outing , no one .

I apologize for my language but this is very emotive .No one has the answers but we need to support the ones who try to protect us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			this thread shows exactly why this situation wont improve for a long time....we as a country are too soft, too frightened to upset/offend anyone, anyone who stands and says what they believe is branded a bigot and a racist.

A day will come when something snaps and we will have a civil war.  It wont be pretty.
		
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We are the country we, are with the attitudes we have, and the respect across the world that we have - because of our basic values of tolerance and respect and how we apply our laws.  Much of what has been posted here 'to protect our way of life' actually IMO goes quite some way to undermining that very way of life, our values - and the respect we as a country have around the world.


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All sorts of generic terms there Smiffy ? Who exactly do you mean by "they or them"
		
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The ones you see shouting off at the rally's threatening to kill the Police, kill the English, kill the politicians, kill the emergency services, kill British solders etc. etc.  etc.
Them ones.
We can identify them via tv and cctv  footage. We know who they are.
Whether they were born over here or not, they are about as much use to this country as either Ian Bradey or Myra Hindley were. Kick the *******s out.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So you think the demonstration I linked to in post 129 should be allowed?
		
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What illegal activity did you observe? It's up to the authorities to ensure that they take suitable action where illegal activity is observed! This may well be the cancellation of the 'license' to demonstrate.Or, it may, however, be determined that the 'best' course is to let the demo continue! 

And FWIW... It's actually pretty simple to simulate a significant crowd with relatively few participants - even with a phone camera. That seems to be the case in that video! How many participants can you really see/here?


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Your talk of communities is exactly whats wrong, we should be a Britiah community not fragmented groups depending on what our religious beliefs are.  Religion needs to be removed from communities and everyone should consider themselves British citizens.
		
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This too. Smash the mosques !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

hmmm - from 2015 - prescient

http://uk.businessinsider.com/there...at-cuts-risked-terror-attack-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

Perhaps to bear in mind as we listen to our Prime Minister sound so concerned, stable and strong - when she was responsible for government cuts to police funding that led to cuts in police officers on the ground - in communities.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			The ones you see shouting off at the rally's threatening to kill the Police, kill the English, kill the politicians, kill the emergency services, kill British solders etc. etc.  etc.
Them ones.
We can identify them via tv and cctv  footage. We know who they are.
Whether they were born over here or not, they are about as much use to this country as either Ian Bradey or Myra Hindley were. Kick the *******s out.
		
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That's all words though isn't it - just words 

Same as the EDL or BNP rallies - they also shout kill the police etc etc 

And people who do incite hatred do get convicted and if possible extradited 

But then when was the last rally of this type ? 

But again where do you kick them out too ? Everyone keeps saying it but where do you expect the country to kick them out too ! 

Just look at Crazyfaces post - smash the mosques - shall we kick him out as well


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			This too. Smash the mosques !
		
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...and how do you think the Muslim communities across the UK would react to that...what a stupid thing to say - and you don't actually even mean it.


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			But this individual's parents were from Libya, so this was a perfect scenario, and if that had stopped this heinous act, then it was worth all the changing of law and upsetting of a few innocents.

Personally you're just coming across as argumentative with non related scenarios, I appreciate 1 glove don't fit all but just keeping to the status quo whilst this issue rises and gets worse, which it is and will until we plug it, doesn't solve squatt.

Maybe you need something closer to home to happen to you for you to change your liberal opinion?  We need radical change for this current growing threat, it won't be pretty and it won't be popular, but what we have now with these british born trojan horses isn't working and is being exploited, and that has nothing to do with resources or money or dare I say, Brexit.  
*
The issue is we have many british born suicide bombers amongst us and we need to create a fear factor to not only them, although that won't work on it's own, but to all their immediate family over here, all or nothing, keep them all in check and break the ranks and maybe some communities will then open up a *bit.
		
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Holy moly. This too !!!!!!! Praise the skies!!! I'm not on my own. I could weep. Vote for the party that says they are going to actually do something like this.


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and how do you think the Muslim communities across the UK would react to that...what a stupid thing to say - and you don't actually even mean it.
		
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I don't? oh sorry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I don't? oh sorry.
		
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No you don't


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			The ones spouting their crap at rallies don't though Robin.
If we can round up football hooligans from what is seen on CCTV footage, why can't we do the same with these oxygen thieves
		
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Ooooo another brilliant idea !!!!


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



*What illegal activity did you observe? *It's up to the authorities to ensure that they take suitable action where illegal activity is observed! This may well be the cancellation of the 'license' to demonstrate.Or, it may, however, be determined that the 'best' course is to let the demo continue! 

And FWIW... It's actually pretty simple to simulate a significant crowd with relatively few participants - even with a phone camera. That seems to be the case in that video! How many participants can you really see/here?
		
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Change the law and make it illegal !!!!


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## Crazyface (May 25, 2017)

TM is going to have a cracking opportunity to put in some sweeping changes. Has she got the guts?


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## richy (May 25, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			TM is going to have a cracking opportunity to put in some sweeping changes. Has she got the guts?
		
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No guts, more cuts......I imagine


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Apparently there are over a thousand people " on the radar" I'd start with chucking them Out!


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			What illegal activity did you observe? It's up to the authorities to ensure that they take suitable action where illegal activity is observed! This may well be the cancellation of the 'license' to demonstrate.Or, it may, however, be determined that the 'best' course is to let the demo continue! 

And FWIW... It's actually pretty simple to simulate a significant crowd with relatively few participants - even with a phone camera. That seems to be the case in that video! How many participants can you really see/here?
		
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You should be a politician


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			TM is going to have a cracking opportunity to put in some sweeping changes.
		
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They'll never do away with face slot technology


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			Press for peace ? How ?These zealots only want absolute control in a society of their choosing ,, not one that this country subscribes too , we are a christian country are we not ?No way should we be changing our way of life for what , at the end of the day , are basically immigrants\guests in our country , if they want an Islamic (or any other religious based state )the feel free to F*** of<script id="gpt-impl-0.1451808964145036" src="https://securepubads.g.doubleclick.net/gpt/pubads_impl_119.js"></script>f to one, DO not try to change us .

_*People may well get hurt along the way ?  *_Are you serious ? No one , not one person should be hurt , no one should have a family member not return home after an outing , no one .
		
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I hate the fact we're seen as a Christian country. We shouldn't be. I have no time for morals laid down by a non-existent being. Would you throw me out of the country for saying that? The sooner we become secular, the better.

And yes, people will be hurt along the way. That's being realistic. Simple as that. Bury your head in the sand if you don't want to see the true face of the darker side of humanity. 



chrisd said:



			Apparently there are over a thousand people " on the radar" I'd start with chucking them Out!
		
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Because everyone that shows up on this metaphorical radar is doing something wrong, yea? But let's just chuck everyone out to make sure we get the baddies. We're surely the last bastion of civilisation then...


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2017)

I'd just like to say hello and a warm welcome to Katie Hopkins who seems to have joined the forum and is posting away today on this thread.  Welcome Katie, you will feel quite comfortable on here and you may well have found your spiritual home. 

Please ignore the liberal elite softy do gooders who hide behind political correctness and basic human rights when they question the sensible policy of interning Muslims or throwing out anyone who is not white British born and bread (especially those with brown faces) back to where their great grandparents were were born.  Don't suppose you fancy a quick nine holes this Friday, I think we will have a lot in common?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			Press for peace ? How ?These zealots only want absolute control in a society of their choosing ,, not one that this country subscribes too , we are a christian country are we not ?No way should we be changing our way of life for what , at the end of the day , are basically immigrants\guests in our country , if they want an Islamic (or any other religious based state )the feel free to F*** off to one, DO not try to change us .

_*People may well get hurt along the way ?  *_Are you serious ? No one , not one person should be hurt , no one should have a family member not return home after an outing , no one .

I apologize for my language but this is very emotive .No one has the answers but we need to support the ones who try to protect us.
		
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We stopped being a Christian country a long time ago now - multi religions have been practiced in the U.K. For decades now 

As for being "guests" - there are millions who are born in this country from a wide variety of ethnic origins - they are British by birth not guests or immigrants


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## woody69 (May 25, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			this thread shows exactly why this situation wont improve for a long time....we as a country are too soft, too frightened to upset/offend anyone, anyone who stands and says what they believe is branded a bigot and a racist.

A day will come when something snaps and we will have a civil war.  It wont be pretty.
		
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Crazyface said:



			This too. Smash the mosques !
		
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The useful idiots for ISIS ladies and gentlemen.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



*Phil, whilst I can see your point, a line has been crossed, people born here, of immigrant parents who openly demonstrate against our way of life, have in my view, renounced their British citizenship.*
They either integrate into British society and accept our way of life, or they are free to leave, 
There can be no middle ground, yes it's not going to be easy, but unless the communities where these people live start outing those who are the problem, we need to start doing it ourselves.

The time to be politically correct has passed, we need a measured response that sends a message to the communities that we will not tolerate this type of hate crime on our shores .
		
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Yep, I pretty much agree with this. And I don't buy into the theory that someone automatically becomes a national of where they were born. My sister was born in Singapore but she is clearly British. Being 'British' or any other nationality is all about buying into the culture and way of life NOT about being born there. As stated, if a person is a supporter of foreign ideals then I would consider them to be whatever that nationality is.


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd just like to say hello and a warm welcome to Katie Hopkins who seems to have joined the forum and is posting away today on this thread.  Welcome Katie, you will feel quite comfortable on here and you may well have found your spiritual home. 

Please ignore the liberal elite softy do gooders who hide behind political correctness and basic human rights when they question the sensible policy of interning Muslims or throwing out anyone who is not white British born and bread (especially those with brown faces) back to where their great grandparents were were born.  Don't suppose you fancy a quick nine holes this Friday, I think we will have a lot in common?
		
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It's "bred" Son, "bred"
Bread is what you eat.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Because everyone that shows up on this metaphorical radar is doing something wrong, yea? But let's just chuck everyone out to make sure we get the baddies. We're surely the last bastion of civilisation then...
		
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You don't get " on the radar " unless you deserve it


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You don't get " on the radar " unless you deserve it
		
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Are you for real with that comment? 

Someone could be witnessed having a conversation with a known terrorist and would immediately be on said radar.

You're clearly fanatical and a little bit scary to be honest.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You don't get " on the radar " unless you deserve it
		
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There are many reasons for people "to go on the radar" and not all of them have strong links to terrorism.

For example they had someone for being monitored for a bit purely because she was the girlfriend of someone else on the radar. 

It's very much a fluid monitoring and it's monitoring only because there is either no threat or evidence to do anything more as yet .


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			It's "bred" Son, "bred"
Bread is what you eat.


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Know body came hear for a leckchur in spelin....


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## adam6177 (May 25, 2017)

If anyone has a spare 3 minutes, watch this video and let me know your thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-TFb9U1E74


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## woody69 (May 25, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			If anyone has a spare 3 minutes, watch this video and let me know your thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-TFb9U1E74

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The reporter is spot on.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			If anyone has a spare 3 minutes, watch this video and let me know your thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-TFb9U1E74

Click to expand...

No different than what some have said on here - it doesn't make what he or any others have said less valid 

He also failed to address the same questions asked here when the same suggestions have been said


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

The Yogurt knitters are out in force making exaggerated condemnations. "You cant throw them all out"  "All Muslims are not to blame"  "You are as bad as the BNP"  "What about the Irish, why didnt we throw them out"   All  the typical leftist policy of taking anything someone says that is against their PC world and exaggerate it so that it sounds like people are looking to shoot all Muslims on sight.  People here are talking of punishment for those that are against us not for those that want to be British and make an effort to be so.


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The Yogurt knitters are out in force making exaggerated condemnations. "You cant throw them all out"  "All Muslims are not to blame"  "You are as bad as the BNP"  "What about the Irish, why didnt we throw them out"   All  the typical leftist policy of taking anything someone says that is against their PC world and exaggerate it so that it sounds like people are looking to shoot all Muslims on sight.  People here are talking of punishment for those that are against us not for those that want to be British and make an effort to be so.
		
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I don't give a damn if someone wants to be British; it's nothing more than a geographical fluke or a political necessity. 

I give a damn about people who are good and want to contribute to society. The colour of their skin doesn't matter a jot to me.


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We stopped being a Christian country a long time ago now - multi religions have been practiced in the U.K. For decades now 

As for being "guests" - there are millions who are born in this country from a wide variety of ethnic origins - they are British by birth not guests or immigrants
		
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So you are saying we are not a christian country ? We are seen to be one from our values that we project to other nations .Would you rather us be an Islamic state ? That's what these people want us to be .
As someone else said land of birth does not really equate to nationality , we see a lot of Asians supporting the Pakistan cricket team for example is that not showing support for a perceived homeland ? as i said this is only an example not a slight on the many law abiding Asians that live with us and give a lot to our society.
I do not think i am "racist" but ,and its a big but i strongly support and want our way of life , our traditions and our freedoms to be treasured and continued ,our future is under threat and we must protect ourselves , how i am not sure .


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The Yogurt knitters are out in force making exaggerated condemnations. "You cant throw them all out"  "All Muslims are not to blame"  "You are as bad as the BNP"  "What about the Irish, why didnt we throw them out"   All  the typical leftist policy of taking anything someone says that is against their PC world and exaggerate it so that it sounds like people are looking to shoot all Muslims on sight.  People here are talking of punishment for those that are against us not for those that want to be British and make an effort to be so.
		
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Suggestions so far made on these threads 

1. If one member of the family is found to have issues - throw the whole family out of the country even if they are British Born nationals 

2. Anyone who is being monitored  throw them out of the country 

3. Smash up the mosques

4. Ban the practise of Islam 

5. Give people from certain countries only a temp passport 

Just a quick snippet 

In regards to the Irish point - do you not think it's valid ? Over the last 4 decades white Christian Irishmen and ladies have killed British people both home and abroad - none of the suggestions been made were ever pointed towards the Irish ? Why not 

There have been suggestions to kick out people who take part in rallies - why not the same suggestion for people who take part in EDL etc rallies ? 

What is this "want to be British" statement - what exactly does it mean in the grand scheme ?


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			So you are saying we are not a christian country ? We are seen to be one from our values that we project to other nations .Would you rather us be an Islamic state ? That's what these people want us to be .
As someone else said land of birth does not really equate to nationality , we see a lot of Asians supporting the Pakistan cricket team for example is that not showing support for a perceived homeland ? as i said this is only an example not a slight on the many law abiding Asians that live with us and give a lot to our society.
I do not think i am "racist" but ,and its a big but i strongly support and want our way of life , our traditions and our freedoms to be treasured and continued ,our future is under threat and we must protect ourselves , how i am not sure .
		
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I think you may just be a racist, you just have reasons that you think justify it.

As to the alternative to being a Christian country... SECULAR.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			So you are saying we are not a christian country ? We are seen to be one from our values that we project to other nations .Would you rather us be an Islamic state ? That's what these people want us to be .
As someone else said land of birth does not really equate to nationality , we see a lot of Asians supporting the Pakistan cricket team for example is that not showing support for a perceived homeland ? as i said this is only an example not a slight on the many law abiding Asians that live with us and give a lot to our society.
I do not think i am "racist" but ,and its a big but i strongly support and want our way of life , our traditions and our freedoms to be treasured and continued ,our future is under threat and we must protect ourselves , how i am not sure .
		
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I would actually prefer the UK to not be defined by any single religion or belief.

And what's wrong with someone from Asia supporting Pakistan ? Is that any different from people who are now British supporting Australia or indeed pick any country. 

And "these people" is rather generic , surely you just mean the small minority of fundamentalists?


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			I think you may just be a racist, you just have reasons that you think justify it.

As to the alternative to being a Christian country... SECULAR.
		
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Racist ? or opinionated ? you do not know me so how can you judge ? in the office i work in are a couple of young Muslim lads who i am friends with , we have been to each others houses on a few occasions and hang around on occasions when not working , they saw what i was posting and agreed with what i said .
In my business i deal with all races and ethnicities and a racist would not last long .So before you judge perhaps you should ask  the target of your slights a few more questions. 

Secular ,,, i am all for that but do we not have a state religion ? Church of England ? If i am mistaken then sorry .


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would actually prefer the UK to not be defined by any single religion or belief.

And what's wrong with someone from Asia supporting Pakistan ? Is that any different from people who are now British supporting Australia or indeed pick any country. 

_And "these people" is rather generic , surely you just mean the small minority of fundamentalists_?
		
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Yes i am sorry , thanks for clearing that up. As for the support thing i meant to say some go over the top  so again i apologize for not being more specific.


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			Racist ? or opinionated ? you do not know me so how can you judge ? in the office i work in are a couple of young Muslim lads who i am friends with , we have been to each others houses on a few occasions and hang around on occasions when not working , they saw what i was posting and agreed with what i said .
In my business i deal with all races and ethnicities and a racist would not last long .So before you judge perhaps you should ask  the target of your slights a few more questions. 

Secular ,,, i am all for that but do we not have a state religion ? Church of England ? If i am mistaken then sorry .
		
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Ah. You've got a foreign friend so you're not racist. Oldest defence in the book.

And yes, we do have the Church of England. We shouldn't in my opinion. We shouldn't let our morals be dictated by a divisive, demonstrably non-existent deity and the mind-controlling book that was written in its name.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Are you for real with that comment? 

Someone could be witnessed having a conversation with a known terrorist and would immediately be on said radar.

You're clearly fanatical and a little bit scary to be honest.
		
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You know that's how the secret services work?

I'm hardly fanatical


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



			Yes i am sorry , thanks for clearing that up. As for the support thing i meant to say some go over the top  so again i apologize for not being more specific.
		
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Is it any different to any fanatical support of a sport team ? It's the same when any foreign nation play here - there is a lot of support for them from people in U.K. But have ancestors from another country


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire;1697584[B said:
			
		


			]
Ah. You've got a foreign friend so you're not racist. Oldest defence in the book.[/B]

And yes, we do have the Church of England. We shouldn't in my opinion._ We shouldn't let our morals be dictated by a divisive, demonstrably non-existent deity and the mind-controlling book that was written in its name._

Click to expand...



Firstly  you had a go at me so i provided you with a few facts , i do not have to defend myself to you at all just giving you a little insight , and they are not foreign i should have said of Asian descent but you probably would find fault with that too.

Secondly , are these fanatics following _ a divisive, demonstrably non-existent deity and the mind-controlling book that was written in its name.?

_You maywish to keep slinging names so feel free to target me ,leave others in peace_.

_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The Yogurt knitters are out in force making exaggerated condemnations. "You cant throw them all out"  "All Muslims are not to blame"  "You are as bad as the BNP"  "What about the Irish, why didnt we throw them out"   All  the typical leftist policy of taking anything someone says that is against their PC world and exaggerate it so that it sounds like people are looking to shoot all Muslims on sight.  People here are talking of punishment for those that are against us not for those that want to be British and make an effort to be so.
		
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You don't have to be a leftie to hold the views you are so disparaging about.


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## Smiffy (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Ah. You've got a foreign friend so you're not racist. Oldest defence in the book.
		
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Ah "racism" where you're damned if you do, and  damned if you don't.
One of my best friends is as "black as your hat" as they say. His name is Mark Hutchinson, and he lives in London.
Nicer guy you couldn't wish to meet. I'd trust him with anything and he is welcome to stay at my house anytime he wants.
Sorry, am I overdoing the racism????


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

oxymoron said:



*So you are saying we are not a christian country ? We are seen to be one from our values that we project to other nations .*Would you rather us be an Islamic state ? That's what these people want us to be .
As someone else said land of birth does not really equate to nationality , we see a lot of Asians supporting the Pakistan cricket team for example is that not showing support for a perceived homeland ? as i said this is only an example not a slight on the many law abiding Asians that live with us and give a lot to our society.
I do not think i am "racist" but ,and its a big but i strongly support and want our way of life , our traditions and our freedoms to be treasured and continued ,our future is under threat and we must protect ourselves , how i am not sure .
		
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So why are folk here suggesting stuff and making outrageous statements that are totally alien to anyone of Christian faith and what that faith teaches us?  And stuff that actually undermines the very values that make the UK the country that it is and that we 'project to other nations'.

So much posted on this thread is very disheartening and disturbing - that folks think this way and think that some of the things said are OK and 'right' - and that somehow will be a way to the answer.  When in fact all they would do would be to alienate the community we need to get fully on board.  We need all communities to be part of 'us' - the measures talked of here would simply exaggerate the 'us' and 'them'

Sad I am.


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## oxymoron (May 25, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Ah "racism" where you're damned if you do, and  damned if you don't.
One of my best friends is as "black as your hat" as they say. His name is Mark Hutchinson, and he lives in London.
Nicer guy you couldn't wish to meet. I'd trust him with anything and he is welcome to stay at my house anytime he wants.
Sorry, am I overdoing the racism????
		
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Steady on ,, someone will pop up soon and accuse you of being the leader of the EDL and the BNP


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why are folk here suggesting stuff and making outrageous statements that are totally alien to anyone of Christian faith and what that faith teaches us?  And stuff that actually undermines the very values that make the UK the country that it is and that we 'project to other nations'.

So much posted on this thread is very disheartening and disturbing - that folks think this way and think that some of the things said are OK and 'right' - and that somehow will be a way to the answer.  Sad I am.
		
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Maybe because we are appalled at what someone has done, almost certainly,  in the name of religion. I accept we have to be tolerant to law abiding and fair people of other beliefs but I share others views that if you come to our country, or were born here, you MUST accept OUR values and way of life and do nothing to disrupt it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Maybe because we are appalled at what someone has done, almost certainly,  in the name of religion. I accept we have to be tolerant to law abiding and fair people of other beliefs but I share others views that if you come to our country, or were born here, you MUST accept OUR values and way of life and do nothing to disrupt it.
		
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done in the name of a belief - an warped interpretation - encouraged by Saudi Arabia - not in the name of a religion.

And what are our values? Intolerance?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Maybe because we are appalled at what someone has done, almost certainly,  in the name of religion. I accept we have to be tolerant to law abiding and fair people of other beliefs but I share others views that if you come to our country, or were born here, you MUST accept OUR values and way of life and do nothing to disrupt it.
		
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As much as I'd like to hang every terrorist from the nearest tree, I have to disagree with your MUST and OUR point, we have plenty of white anglo saxon scum who don't do that.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			done in the name of a belief - an warped interpretation - encouraged by Saudi Arabia - not in the name of a religion.

And what are our values? Intolerance?
		
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In the name of religion as far as the the perpetrators are concerned as well as their supporter's 

Our values, no, not intolerance,  frustration I'd say, as we just have to say that they won't win and then wait for the next outrage!


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			As much as I'd like to hang every terrorist from the nearest tree, I have to disagree with your MUST and OUR point, we have plenty of white anglo saxon scum who don't do that.
		
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Not too many kill children at a pop concert though


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Not too many kill children at a pop concert though
		
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Now we're selective in what crimes matter, are we? And you're seemingly basing it on the colour of their skin. Interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			In the name of religion as far as the the perpetrators are concerned as well as their supporter's 

Our values, no, not intolerance,  frustration I'd say, as we just have to say that they won't win and then wait for the next outrage!
		
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We are not waiting - we are vigilant - and our security organisations are not waiting - they are very active working to prevent such atrocities.  Planes crash - people die on motorways (five on the M6 early yesterday morning  ); we do not stop flying - we do not stop driving on motorways.  

We as the public do what we can by being vigilant, working with and forming friendships with the those from the minority communities whenever possible.  And we trust in the security organisations to do their bit.  

We cannot - must not - take actions that alienate those *we *have to do our very best - without resentment or fear -  to integrate with and befriend, we cannot turn away; shun, and stigmatise these communities.  For in doing so *we *will simply end up dividing our towns, cities and our nation with outcomes we will struggle to control.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We cannot - must not - take actions that alienate those *we *have to do our very best - without resentment or fear -  to integrate with and befriend, we cannot turn away; shun, and stigmatise these communities.  For in doing so *we *will simply end up dividing our towns, cities and our nation with outcomes we will struggle to control.
		
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No-one wants to alienate these communities, people just want to alienate the child murderers.
It should be the responsibility of the community leaders to gives up these people to the police.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Now we're selective in what crimes matter, are we? And you're seemingly basing it on the colour of their skin. Interesting.
		
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Pretty stupid comment in my opinion.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Now we're selective in what crimes matter, are we? And you're seemingly basing it on the colour of their skin. Interesting.
		
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 all countries have residents who commit crimes and they ALL matter, I have never referred to anyones colour


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are not waiting - we are vigilant - and our security organisations are not waiting - they are very active working to prevent such atrocities.  Planes crash - people die on motorways (five on the M6 early yesterday morning  ); we do not stop flying - we do not stop driving on motorways.  

We as the public do what we can by being vigilant, working with and forming friendships with the those from the minority communities whenever possible.  And we trust in the security organisations to do their bit.  

We cannot - must not - take actions that alienate those *we *have to do our very best - without resentment or fear -  to integrate with and befriend, we cannot turn away; shun, and stigmatise these communities.  For in doing so *we *will simply end up dividing our towns, cities and our nation with outcomes we will struggle to control.
		
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We ARE waiting, sadly there will be another, then another. Yes, we need to work with those communities who spawn terrorists but they need to report them, stop them, deradicalise them, stop the preachers of hate.


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## HowlingGale (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In regards to the Irish point - do you not think it's valid ? Over the last 4 decades white Christian Irishmen and ladies have killed British people both home and abroad - none of the suggestions been made were ever pointed towards the Irish ? Why not
		
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Most of these atrocities happened years ago before the internet or social media. How do you know this point wasn't raised in pubs and clubs around the country at the time? I remember my old BB captain saying somthing like this about it but I was too young to understand.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Now we're selective in what crimes matter, are we? And you're seemingly basing it on the colour of their skin. Interesting.
		
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That's a very silly post.  Who has mentioned skin colour, Muslims come in all shades.   All crimes matter but mass murder matters quite a lot.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Not too many kill children at a pop concert though
		
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Stephen Gray, Ex-RAF currently serving a prison sentence for joining isis,


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Stephen Gray, Ex-RAF currently serving a prison sentence for joining isis,
		
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Come on Paul, i didn't say no one from GB haven't done wrong


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would actually prefer the UK to not be defined by any single religion or belief.

*And what's wrong with someone from Asia supporting Pakistan *? Is that any different from people who are now British supporting Australia or indeed pick any country. 

And "these people" is rather generic , surely you just mean the small minority of fundamentalists?
		
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What exactly does that mean?


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2017)

Can I just say there is a lot of work done in schools under the prevent initiative to tackle radicalisation. I know it is not a knee jerk reaction mostly done to garner favourable headlines in The Daily Mail. But it is one of I imagine many things going on that are not immediately obvious to people to tackle this problem through a systematic long lasting strategy .


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Come on Paul, i didn't say no one from GB haven't done wrong
		
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Of course you didn't and I'm not suggesting you would, my point is, not all the terrorists are immigrants or come from immigrant families, some don't attend mosques so we can't put all the responsibility on ethnic communities coming forward and spotting all the troublemakers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What exactly does that mean?
		
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It means exactly the same as a person born in England of Scottish or Irish heritage choosing to support Scotland or Ireland in the rugby or football.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What exactly does that mean?
		
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It means that some people with ancestry going back to Pakistan may prefer to support the Pakistan cricket team as opposed to the England cricket team - shall they be kicked out as well


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It means that some people with ancestry going back to Pakistan may prefer to support the Pakistan cricket team as opposed to the England cricket team - shall they be kicked out as well
		
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Well it's a bit radical but if that law was introduced maybe these terrorists would think twice if their actions were going to have a direct effect on the lives of their family!


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			all countries have residents who commit crimes and they ALL matter, I have never referred to anyones colour
		
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SocketRocket said:



			That's a very silly post.  Who has mentioned skin colour, Muslims come in all shades.   All crimes matter but mass murder matters quite a lot.
		
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Pauldj42 - "we have plenty of white anglo saxon scum who don't do that."

chrisd - "Not too many kill children at a pop concert though"   

Right there - accepting that "white anglo saxon scum" exist but clearly making light of their crimes if they aren't killing children at a pop concert


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			Excellent debates and dialog from individuals on Sky News clearly stating that anyone who is saying this isn't about religion or that religion isn't behind all the attacks we endure, is kidding themselves!

All the wordings and texts are real, it's simply that some individuals interpret them differently, some of these speakers also go on to say that again this idea that weak or vulnerable individuals are targeted, is a myth! 

Yes, there is no doubt radicalisation goes on but individuals who are brought up with or around these more hostile and hatred variations of Islam towards the west or anyone that doesn't follow those jihadist ideals, volunteer and make themselves available to the terror groups who then simply use them as weapons for their own agenda.  

What I don't ever quite get my head around is, we go on about being a multicultural country and we are happy to welcome people from anywhere in the world, but for me there has to be a stronger sense of integration.  

Nobody should come over and set up in areas that only dominate those nationalities, religious beliefs or faiths, and then make no effort to mix with western society and only go on to complain and demonstrate against our western views and laws and more importantly, make no effort to speak our language.

Change has to start somewhere, more worrying is that there are areas in my city, and possibly others, that even I wouldn't venture out on my own too late into the night.  

We have already had some situations where young women walking home from nightclubs have been attacked and beaten by young Muslim men who don't agree with the way they are dressed etc!

If these young men are like this now within our country and have probably been born here, then they are typical of the issues and problems we face and are possibly being taught this way by their parents, and if that is the case, then before these young men become fully fledged homegrown terrorists, if there parents have not been born here and still hold dual nationality in their birth country, then they need getting rid of back to where they allegedly fled from, because quite simply, we cannot have these homegrown terrorists thinking they can come and go as they please and believing there's nothing we can do before it's too late and they've blown some people up because they hold a British passport.

All British passports and citizenship for people coming to our country to set up new lives needs to be temporary, if any serious laws are broken or if we know of teachings which can or could lead to serious terrorist events, those passports are then withdrawn and they, parents, son's daughters and everyone associated to them whether born here or not, are flown immediately out back to their parents origin.

No detention centres, no red tape, it's a temporary passport and it can be withdrawn immediately.

This is no time to pander to the rights of any individuals, we make our laws, they are abided by or you run the risk of being deported back to your place of birth and any sons or daughters born here lose their rights as there citizenship is only based on their parents temporary passport/dual-nationality.

It's time to take the gloves off...
		
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I have read many posts now that just say we should let the current justice system deal with these outrages and accept the people that carry them out as British Citizens.  I totally disagree with this and think we have to take a much tougher line on anyone in this country that perpetrate hatred of the state and support terrorism.  It's no good for people to say they are British and so nothing can be done, we need to change the law and before the bleeding hearts disagree I mean anyone no matter what their faith or skin colour.

I agree totally what the attached post says and dont think there is any point in following this thread any longer as I have made my mind up and nothing is going to change it.    I'm Out!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I have read many posts now that just say we should let the current justice system deal with these outrages and accept the people that carry them out as British Citizens.  I totally disagree with this and think we have to take a much tougher line on anyone in this country that perpetrate hatred of the state and support terrorism.  It's no good for people to say they are British and so nothing can be done, we need to change the law and before the bleeding hearts disagree I mean anyone no matter what their faith or skin colour.

I agree totally what the attached post says and dont think there is any point in following this thread any longer as I have made my mind up and nothing is going to change it.    I'm Out!
		
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Please explain how this would of worked for Stephen Gray! IT WOULDN'T he is English.

He is now locked up for his crime


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Pauldj42 - "we have plenty of white anglo saxon scum who don't do that."

chrisd - "Not too many kill children at a pop concert though"   

Right there - accepting that "white anglo saxon scum" exist but clearly making light of their crimes if they aren't killing children at a pop concert
		
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"Making light of their crimes"  since when?

"Accepting there are white anglo saxon scum" in no way makes me a racist ..... you need to try and understand the context of posts before going slap happy on the keyboard!


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## Kellfire (May 25, 2017)

chrisd said:



			"Making light of their crimes"  since when?

"Accepting there are white anglo saxon scum" in no way makes me a racist ..... you need to try and understand the context of posts before going slap happy on the keyboard!
		
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Saying "Not too many kill children at a pop concert though" is clearly suggesting that you put this crime about what the "white anglo saxon scum" do.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Saying "Not too many kill children at a pop concert though" is clearly suggesting that you put this crime about what the "white anglo saxon scum" do.
		
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You do post absolute tosh!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Please explain how this would of worked for Stephen Gray! IT WOULDN'T he is English.

He is now locked up for his crime
		
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I said I'm out. Whats different about Grey, if he was suspected of being a terrorist he should be dealt with by the laws in force at the time, if he is English then he would be put in Jail. Now absolutely finally I'm OUT!!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I said I'm out. Whats different about Grey, if he was suspected of being a terrorist he should be dealt with by the laws in force at the time, if he is English then he would be put in Jail. Now absolutely finally I'm OUT!!
		
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So basically anyone who is British is treated the same regardless of where their ancestors come from and what religion they are - so none of this sending back home business.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I said I'm out. Whats different about Grey, if he was suspected of being a terrorist he should be dealt with by the laws in force at the time, if he is English then he would be put in Jail. Now absolutely finally I'm OUT!!
		
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Your previous last out post had you agreeing with temporary passports and how you agreed it would work, it won't work for full blown British Cristian families who have one member go rogue, were are you deporting all these British people to?


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically anyone who is British is treated the same regardless of where their ancestors come from and what religion they are - so none of this sending back home business.
		
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I'm out!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Your previous last out post had you agreeing with temporary passports and how you agreed it would work, it won't work for full blown British Cristian families who have one member go rogue, were are you deporting all these British people to?
		
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Read Fish's post and digest it.  I'm Out!!


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry, but this is a classic over-reaction to an obscene terrorist incident!

The entire basis of UK/English Law would be undermined if what you suggest was implemented!

As for 'inciting'... There are already sufficient laws to cover real offenders. The ability to (peacefully) protest/demonstrate is a fundamental right and must be protected, otherwise the terrorists will have had a victory - by turning UK into a 'police state'! 

It is up to Security Services/Police to gather evidence and establish a case to prosecute via laws already in existence! They DO have some fairly draconian powers - provided they can identify the possible perpetrators! I'm certain there'll be some 'reviewing' of how this incident wasn't caught - as there DID seem to be some flags raised! If it's a 'resources' issue, then that would seem to relatively easily addressed, though can never guarantee complete safety!
		
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And this is the kind of attitude that makes members of the SF think twice before they take any action because later on down the line (as we are seeing now in NI) someone will make a spurious case against someone who may not have crossed the Ts and dotted the i's.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Read Fish's post and digest it.  I'm Out!!
		
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I'll type slowly so please read slowly.

Robin mentions temp passports etc (if we were starting from scratch I think it could work, we're not)

Gray was born into a Christian British Family, he converted to islam, has been convicted of terrorist offences and sentenced to 5 years.

Back to Robins post, neither him or his family are immigrants, so how do we remove his and their passports and deport them, how does Robins idea work for homegrown white anglo saxon people.

Now, are you out or are you out out?


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Make eating Pork sausages mandatory, that'll stop it.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

There's a saying in life...
If you don't change anything, nothing will change.

Thoughts are with those still in hospital fighting for their lives.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

bobmac said:



			There's a saying in life...
If you don't change anything, nothing will change.

Thoughts are with those still in hospital fighting for their lives.
		
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I don't think anyone has said "don't change anything" 

What people are saying is the changes that have been suggested on here are unworkable and in fact beyond radical.

Change to stop it all happening would be great - no one will deny that , just got to find a way to stop people acting the way that have done for centuries.


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## Beezerk (May 25, 2017)

One or two more major attacks happen  in the UK in quick succession and then what? 
This is what worries me.


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			One or two more major attacks happen  in the UK in quick succession and then what? 
This is what worries me.
		
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Never worry about things you have no control over. Just be aware of your surroundings.


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## Beezerk (May 25, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Never worry about things you have no control over.
		
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Funny you should say that, I started reading a book on Stoic Philosophy this week.


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## Slime (May 25, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Funny you should say that, I started reading a book on Stoic Philosophy this week.
		
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With the sun in your eyes whilst having a cold beer on the patio :cheers:.


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## User62651 (May 25, 2017)

Worth a read for some on here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/uk_1.shtml. UK is a history of immigrants from everywhere, has always been so. 

Manchester was absolutely horrific but knee jerk reactions and hostility to all those of a certain religion in UK who are 'different' never got us anywhere. This is a world wide problem as evidenced by 130 terrorist incidents around the world so far in May 2017 alone committed generally by angry young men coerced by bitter angry older men - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_May_2017 

Needs a world wide solution but not much prospect of that in sight sadly.


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

Can I just add a massive thanks to all our services and armed forces patrolling the streets in boiling temperatures today in an effort to ensure our lives are safe today.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Can I just add a massive thanks to all our services and armed forces patrolling the streets in boiling temperatures today in an effort to ensure our lives are safe today.
		
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Motion carried &#128077;


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Can I just add a massive thanks to all our services and armed forces patrolling the streets in boiling temperatures today in an effort to ensure our lives are safe today.
		
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Well said and a post of sanity amongst the madness


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Can I just add a massive thanks to all our services and armed forces patrolling the streets in boiling temperatures today in an effort to ensure our lives are safe today.
		
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Was always the best way to pick up some summer tottie &#128525;


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## Raesy92 (May 25, 2017)

From the BBC 



More than 100 Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strike and blast in Mosul in March, US military confirms

Can I just add this is in no way condining the actions of the cowards that arrived out these attacks. But this is why there are many extremists that want revenge against the western world. War is a terrible thing, and peace will never occur when people feel that there is a need for revenge.


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## IanM (May 25, 2017)

No. They just want to kill you unless you submit to their version of Islam . 

Who says so?  They do. Often.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

IanM said:



			No. They just want to kill you unless you submit to their version of Islam . 

Who says so?  They do. Often.
		
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Are you really going to discount the need for revenge and to cause havoc to maybe try and get the UK to move away from the action in Libya , Syria and Iraq ? 

If was just about killing us because of Islam why did they only start after the UK involvement in Iraq , Afghan , Libya and Syria - these groups formed because of the military action in those countries and the west attempting to force democracy on the countries


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you really going to discount the need for revenge and to cause havoc to maybe try and get the UK to move away from the action in Libya , Syria and Iraq ? 

If was just about killing us because of Islam why did they only start after the UK involvement in Iraq , Afghan , Libya and Syria - these groups formed because of the military action in those countries and the west attempting to force democracy on the countries
		
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Im a bit confused by this, are you saying that this is all the west's fault.


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## IanM (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you really going to discount the need for revenge and to cause havoc to maybe try and get the UK to move away from the action in Libya , Syria and Iraq ? 

If was just about killing us because of Islam why did they only start after the UK involvement in Iraq , Afghan , Libya and Syria - these groups formed because of the military action in those countries and the west attempting to force democracy on the countries
		
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Read up on Isis.  If that was the case why do they kill "the other sort of Muslims,  chuck gay folk off buildings, kidnap school kids etc etc 

Stop trying to rationalise the actions of madmen.


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## bobmac (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think anyone has said "don't change anything"
		
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So you wake up in the morning and your the new PM.
What would you change?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

The first thing I'd do is try and replace the 20,000 Police Officers we've lost since 2010.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So you wake up in the morning and your the new PM.
What would you change?
		
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Give the security forces what they need - pour funding into our police forces and armed forces so that they have far better resources to help them tackle the issues


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## pokerjoke (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Can I just add a massive thanks to all our services and armed forces patrolling the streets in boiling temperatures today in an effort to ensure our lives are safe today.
		
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Whilst I agree the forces do a good job putting police on the street for one day armed is just a total waste of time.

What about tomorrow and the days after.

We are in a war on the streets and putting police on the street for a day is just a token gesture.

What actually would 2 police do against a bomb? absolutely nothing.

As I understand it although not seen there were 2 in Taunton today do they not know Taunton is a big place.


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## IanM (May 25, 2017)

How about cancelling the passports of all those who went to fight in Syria?
How about Deporting the hate preachers and their multitude of kids and wives living on welfare?

Who says so?  My mate Razi, who is sick of these scum bringing shame on his religion and who is angry that our politicians are too scared to do anything other than talk about cohesion .

Tolerate the intolerant and you end up dead. Simples.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

IanM said:



			How about cancelling the passports of all those who went to fight in Syria?
How about Deporting the hate preachers and their multitude of kids and wives living on welfare?

Who says so?  My mate Razi, who is sick of these scum bringing shame on his religion and who is angry that our politicians are too scared to do anything other than talk about cohesion .

Tolerate the intolerant and you end up dead. Simples.
		
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Anybody proven to have visited Syria for subversive reasons do have their passports removed from them.


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## IanM (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Anybody proven to have visited Syria for subversive reasons do have their passports removed from them.
		
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Many have returned and the Home Office haven't a clue where they are. And it's not just Syria is it?

This lot want to kill you and your kids.... It's that simple.  But folk on here are finding excuses for them.  Frankly that's amazing.  Moderate law abiding muslims are just as much at risk.  But still the same nonsense.  

Carry on as normal they say.  How can you when your kid is dead or you're a 14 year old suddenly minus your legs.  

Smell the coffee folks.


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2017)

Interesting policy change required


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

IanM said:



			Many have returned and the Home Office haven't a clue where they are. And it's not just Syria is it?

This lot want to kill you and your kids.... It's that simple.  But folk on here are finding excuses for them.  Frankly that's amazing.  Moderate law abiding muslims are just as much at risk.  But still the same nonsense.  

Carry on as normal they say.  How can you when your kid is dead or you're a 14 year old suddenly minus your legs.  

Smell the coffee folks.
		
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Really, I'd be amazed if you can show anyone making excuses for them. 

What do you suggest?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 22733
Interesting policy change required
		
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Might of been helped by the fact the Japs wore a uniform and had a homeland.


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			Whilst I agree the forces do a good job putting police on the street for one day armed is just a total waste of time.

What about tomorrow and the days after.

We are in a war on the streets and putting police on the street for a day is just a token gesture.

What actually would 2 police do against a bomb? absolutely nothing.

As I understand it although not seen there were 2 in Taunton today do they not know Taunton is a big place.
		
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Of course what you say is all true. Doesn't stop anyone saying thanks today though


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Anybody proven to have visited Syria for subversive reasons do have their passports removed from them.
		
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Which is great until they get a fake one and do one and head over there again


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2017)

IanM said:



			Many have returned and the Home Office haven't a clue where they are. And it's not just Syria is it?

This lot want to kill you and your kids.... It's that simple.  But folk on here are finding excuses for them.  Frankly that's amazing.  Moderate law abiding muslims are just as much at risk.  But still the same nonsense.  

Carry on as normal they say.  How can you when your kid is dead or you're a 14 year old suddenly minus your legs.  

Smell the coffee folks.
		
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Not one single person on here has made excuses for them and it's disgusting to even suggest such a thing 

Not one single person has said carry on as normal 

But you carry on reading into people's post whatever you like so that you can carry on posting your tripe.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2017)

Val said:



			Which is great until they get a fake one and do one and head over there again
		
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Which sort of makes all these comments about deportation etc pointless doesn't it.

As you're fully aware Martin, we need to try and get one step ahead of these people and the only way is to trust the security services.

Saw the video today from 2015 when the now PM was Home Secretary and she adressed the Police Federation and told them to stop scaremongering when they warned her about cutbacks to Coppers and needing the Army on the streets if we faced a major incident.

Politicians are more interested in finances than lives imo.


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## Val (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Which sort of makes all these comments about deportation etc pointless doesn't it.

As you're fully aware Martin, we need to try and get one step ahead of these people and the only way is to trust the security services.

Saw the video today from 2015 when the now PM was Home Secretary and she adressed the Police Federation and told them to stop scaremongering when they warned her about cutbacks to Coppers and needing the Army on the streets if we faced a major incident.

Politicians are more interested in finances than lives imo.
		
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100% agree and through finances at them to do it, if the government publicly came out and said we need to raise tax 1% to put more cops and armed units in the street I'd happily pay it.

Given lots of these PC rules are enforced by he EU (European court of justice etc) surely Brexit (apologies for bringing this in but it's relevant) can help us in some way.

I don't believe in deportation en masse but we need to have something to bring these people into line. Like I said earlier Guinard, it could be our version of Guantanamo.


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## Hobbit (May 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not one single person on here has made excuses for them and it's disgusting to even suggest such a thing 

Not one single person has said carry on as normal 

But you carry on reading into people's post whatever you like so that you can carry on posting your tripe.
		
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But what part of it is tripe? 

There's posts on here stating that the reason for the terror attacks is the UK's involvement in actions such as Iraq, Libya and Syria. Call it a reason, or call it an excuse, as to why we now have terrorists. But no one is excusing them, though it could be argued they have a disgusting (excuse) reason for doing it.

As for they all want to kill us and other non-IS muslims; have a read of how IS was formed and its declaration of a Caliphate. A Caliphate has a huge amount of support across the muslim world - maybe not an IS led one but certainly one similar to the last one, which ended 90 years ago.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I'll type slowly so please read slowly.

Robin mentions temp passports etc (if we were starting from scratch I think it could work, we're not)

Gray was born into a Christian British Family, he converted to islam, has been convicted of terrorist offences and sentenced to 5 years.

Back to Robins post, neither him or his family are immigrants, so how do we remove his and their passports and deport them, how does Robins idea work for homegrown white anglo saxon people.

Now, are you out or are you out out?
		
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OK, for the very last time and it will be the very last time.  Let me type slowly so you can take it all in:
There are two cases here; one where people immigrate to the UK as they see it as a place to live better than where they lived before, these people should be given a temporary residency visa to live in the UK for their lifetimes, if at any time in their lifetimes while in the UK they are found to have had any part to play in terrorist activities they and their families would have their visas cancelled and they would be deported, the guilty party would first serve any sentence they were given first.  The second case is where all the family of the guilty party were born in the UK, in this case the guilty person would be sentenced and serve their time.

I hope you are capable of digesting and understanding this now.  If you're not then I cant explain it in any simpler way and will have to consider you dont want to understand it.

This really is my last reply to you as further discussion will be completely futile.


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2017)

Well said as ever

https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/867887932731924480


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Young lad from the west country about to be sentanced today for putting a bomb on a tube train.
White, Christian from a good home with no knowledge of the middle east.

Which country do those who advocate deportation suggest we ship him off to.


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## oxymoron (May 26, 2017)

Gents, can we all take a deep breath please and understand that this is a forum , the posts may not be a true reflection of what the poster actually means . We can all read what we want in to a post its not easy to accurately interpret what the poster is trying to get across all the time ,,, so deep breaths please , and a little less insults .

Let us be thankful we can post\discuss things like this and not be afraid of the state censorship that some people live with.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/OnePathNetwork/videos/1669290199766596/


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 26, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, for the very last time and it will be the very last time.  Let me type slowly so you can take it all in:
There are two cases here; one where people immigrate to the UK as they see it as a place to live better than where they lived before, these people should be given a temporary residency visa to live in the UK for their lifetimes, if at any time in their lifetimes while in the UK they are found to have had any part to play in terrorist activities they and their families would have their visas cancelled and they would be deported, the guilty party would first serve any sentence they were given first.  The second case is where all the family of the guilty party were born in the UK, in this case the guilty person would be sentenced and serve their time.

I hope you are capable of digesting and understanding this now.  If you're not then I cant explain it in any simpler way and will have to consider you dont want to understand it.

This really is my last reply to you as further discussion will be completely futile.
		
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I know you're "out" but i'm interested in an actual debate/conversation. Do you think it would be fair that in case a) the family gets punished, whereas in case b), they don't? It's a tough one. I'm also not sure how I feel about punishing a family because of one individual. How far wide would we cast the net. Cousins? Grandparents? How about if they had a brother/sister with a new born child, who is now British?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I know you're "out" but i'm interested in an actual debate/conversation. Do you think it would be fair that in case a) the family gets punished, whereas in case b), they don't? It's a tough one. I'm also not sure how I feel about punishing a family because of one individual. How far wide would we cast the net. Cousins? Grandparents? How about if they had a brother/sister with a new born child, who is now British?
		
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Thank you, :thup: I thought it was just me.


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## Fish (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Young lad from the west country about to be sentanced today for putting a bomb on a tube train.
White, Christian from a good home with no knowledge of the middle east.

Which country do those who advocate deportation suggest we ship him off to.
		
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You just don't get it do you...I've clearly stated, and as SocketRocket has underlined also, those (everyone) who have migrated here are only afforded a provisional/temporary visa style passport, they never achieve a full British citizenship, as such if any of them, whether first or second generation become actively involved in terrorist activities then then all go back to where they came from, or in other words, there true nationality and place of birth.

I don't care if the parents have given birth to someone in Britain and that now gives some kind of free pass to British citizenship which allows them to be a trojan horse style terrorist, we plug that gap now.  So, as the parents are only on temporary passports the children born here are not fully fledged british citizens and as such if they become active in acts against the country, they, along with their parents, other sisters, brothers the whole shooting match are offloaded.

Maybe, just maybe if there are family members that are not of the same thinking as some of the jihadist style family members, you can break the ranks and gain important information from them and stop some atrocities.

If we have a person from the west country or anywhere like you describe, then he/she simply falls under our own judicial laws and is jailed for life with no opportunity of parole, life means life.   

I don't care about all the reasons why it can't work, it's easy to come up with loads of excuses why things won't work in any situation, it's far more productive and beneficial to find reasons to make things work, why, _because if you keep doing what you're doing you'll keep getting what you're getting_, bombs and mass loss of life, and with the homegrown trojan horse style terrorists something has to change as I don't accept that just more resources will stop it, it has to be a far more radical change.

Get it......


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## chrisd (May 26, 2017)

No bad plan Fish.

 Some people will just not get that it isn't too difficult  to do


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

Someone born in the U.K. Is a British Citizen by birth right - it's a simple as that , you can't suddenly decide to stop giving that right just because their family moved to the UK from a Middle East country - that's clearly a racist policy based on their religion. Would you treat someone Australia who was a Muslim the same ? Someone from the US the same. 

And you can't punish multiple innocent people on the act of one person just because they are related. Someone who is born in this country their place of birth is Uk and their nationality is UK.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

Fish said:



			You just don't get it do you...I've clearly stated, and as SocketRocket has underlined also, those (everyone) who have migrated here are only afforded a provisional/temporary visa style passport, they never achieve a full British citizenship, as such if any of them, whether first or second generation become actively involved in terrorist activities then then all go back to where they came from, or in other words, there true nationality and place of birth.

I don't care if the parents have given birth to someone in Britain and that now gives some kind of free pass to British citizenship which allows them to be a trojan horse style terrorist, we plug that gap now.  So, as the parents are only on temporary passports the children born here are not fully fledged british citizens and as such if they become active in acts against the country, they, along with their parents, other sisters, brothers the whole shooting match are offloaded.

Maybe, just maybe if there are family members that are not of the same thinking as some of the jihadist style family members, you can break the ranks and gain important information from them and stop some atrocities.

If we have a person from the west country or anywhere like you describe, then he/she simply falls under our own judicial laws and is jailed for life with no opportunity of parole, life means life.   

I don't care about all the reasons why it can't work, it's easy to come up with loads of excuses why things won't work in any situation, it's far more productive and beneficial to find reasons to make things work, why, _because if you keep doing what you're doing you'll keep getting what you're getting_, bombs and mass loss of life, and with the homegrown trojan horse style terrorists something has to change as I don't accept that just more resources will stop it, it has to be a far more radical change.

Get it......
		
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No one is disagreeing or not getting the point about the immigrant and temporary passports.

What about the person who is British and family has always been British for hundreds of years?

Your passport idea and sending them home idea doesn't work, his family are home.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone born in the U.K. Is a British Citizen by birth right - it's a simple as that , you can't suddenly decide to stop giving that right just because their family moved to the UK from a Middle East country - that's clearly a racist policy based on their religion. Would you treat someone Australia who was a Muslim the same ? Someone from the US the same. 

And you can't punish multiple innocent people on the act of one person just because they are related. Someone who is born in this country their place of birth is Uk and their nationality is UK.
		
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I agree, but I think that as is often the case when one person does the deed. Many other people are aware of it. 

Id like to think that if a sibling or parent of mine suddenly became infatuated with something I'd be able to notice. If they started to rant violently about something and I felt something was wrong I would talk to someone. 

Maybe if families know that they will all be deported then they would say something. I don't think it would work as a deterrent to the person committing the act. But maybe, even if it's only a slight chance. Maybe a family member would speak up, knowing that their way of life could be massively changed if they didn't. 

On thing I will say re their place of birth though. And it may just be the 100's of drivers I see at work daily. 

But it if you ask them where they are from. Their response is Muslim (they're predominantly Turkish). They don't relate to nationality the same as others as they see their religion as all incompassing. And this ideology is what makes some so fanatical. So this idea that they have any sort of pride of being a British citizen is false imo. 

And whilst im all for multicultural society. I firmly believe. Anyone choosing to live in England should learn English within 5 years. Then they should be signed off and accepted. That goes for everyone.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			No one is disagreeing or not getting the point about the immigrant and temporary passports.

What about the person who is British and family has always been British for hundreds of years?

Your passport idea and sending them home idea doesn't work, his family are home.
		
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He has answered that. Any British national is treated by our system. Family is left alone. While that may seem harsh, if its made a condition for people when they choose to move here. Then that's their choice. Accept their may be repercussions. Or don't move here. People may not agree with it. But think Fish has made it clear what he thinks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			He has answered that. Any British national is treated by our system. Family is left alone. While that may seem harsh, if its made a condition for people when they choose to move here. Then that's their choice. Accept their may be repercussions. Or don't move here. People may not agree with it. But think Fish has made it clear what he thinks.
		
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So a 2 pronged approach, different rules based on ancestry.
Were's the deterrent for those then?


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So a 2 pronged approach, different rules based on ancestry.
Were's the deterrent for those then?
		
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I don't have the answers. I'm just clarifying what was said. 

But, many countries have rules for migration now. Or rules to abide by when you get there. From a purely financial POV. How much does it cost to imprison someone? So if they have immigrated here the. Why would we want to pay to keep them in these shores. So yeah. Send em back wherever. 

It wont stop homegrown terrorism. But if it stops one attack from legalised citizen then I'm happy to offend someone's feelings.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Val said:



			100% agree and through finances at them to do it, if the government publicly came out and said we need to raise tax 1% to put more cops and armed units in the street I'd happily pay it.

Given lots of these PC rules are enforced by he EU (European court of justice etc) surely Brexit (apologies for bringing this in but it's relevant) can help us in some way.

I don't believe in deportation en masse but we need to have something to bring these people into line. Like I said earlier Guinard, it could be our version of Guantanamo.
		
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Gruinard?  Methinks the Scottish Government might have something to say about that


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't have the answers. I'm just clarifying what was said. 

But, many countries have rules for migration now. Or rules to abide by when you get there. From a purely financial POV. How much does it cost to imprison someone? So if they have immigrated here the. Why would we want to pay to keep them in these shores. So yeah. Send em back wherever. 

It wont stop homegrown terrorism. But if it stops one attack from legalised citizen then I'm happy to offend someone's feelings.
		
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I've stated a few times I agree in principle with what Fish has said, asking a question or discussing it doesn't mean someone is against it or will be offended.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2017)

The bottom line is we are not going to defeat terrorism with the laws we currently have in place so we either accept and live with terrorism or we change the laws.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

I know that this will be an unfashionable, and for many an irrelevant, observation - but as a Christian living in what purports to be a Christian country with values and laws based upon Christian principles - I am hearing quite a lot of rather un-Christian views and attitudes here.  

Of course this is a very difficult and painful issue - and there is no easy, or indeed probably no difficult, obvious solution - but I simply fear that some of the 'solutions' being suggested would simply exacerbate an already complex and divisive situation - and that is not good for our country and how we would be perceived by the RoW.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The bottom line is we are not going to defeat terrorism with the laws we currently have in place so we either accept and live with terrorism or we change the laws.
		
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But we change them properly and thought out, not knee jerked and then spend the next 10 years spending millions on appeals and compensation, money that could be spent better elsewhere.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The bottom line is we are not going to defeat terrorism with the laws we currently have in place so we either accept and live with terrorism or we change the laws.
		
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A change in laws won't stop terrorism - they will always find a way around any law created , they don't care. I don't believe you can ever get rid of terrorists whatever laws are changed. 

You can create laws making it harder for people to be citizens but it must be applicable to all not just certain ethnics - we want to live in a fairer safer society so that means all laws must be level for all.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I've stated a few times I agree in principle with what Fish has said, asking a question or discussing it doesn't mean someone is against it or will be offended.
		
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I may have been misinterpreted. I was t saying you were the one offended. I was just accepting that the point I made would obviously cause outraged with the professionally offended.....


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know that this will be an unfashionable, and for many an irrelevant, observation - but as a Christian living in what purports to be a Christian country with values and laws based upon Christian principles - I am hearing quite a lot of rather un-Christian views and attitudes here.  

Of course this is a very difficult and painful issue - and there is no easy, or indeed probably no difficult, obvious solution - but I simply fear that some of the 'solutions' being suggested would simply exacerbate an already complex and divisive situation - and that is not good for our country and how we would be perceived by the RoW.
		
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And this is why religion has no place in the modern world. 

Why on earth should we make all our choice based on Christian views? If we stick to the principles then there are plenty of bigoted views we would have to take. 

Laws should be done with the best interests of the public in order. 

Religion doesn't have the same control of society as it used to. Lots of People make their own morale judgements based on their views and perceptions. And any POV shared that "isn't Christian" is as valid as any other.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			And this is why religion has no place in the modern world.
		
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You might not think so but millions if not billions of people think it does.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

drive4show said:



			You might not think so but millions if not billions of people think it does.
		
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I meant to say in modern law. 

I have no problem people choosing a religion to govern their daily lives. But it shouldn't be used as law. Or used by religious people to claim some sort of morale outrage.


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## adam6177 (May 26, 2017)

All this liberal softly softly guff is exactly why we're in this mess.... I'm glad some people on here can see sense and see we need action.  

I really hope those in power are actually planning on doing something about this....if it were left to the likes of some on here we'll be in this exact same position 2-5-10 years from now mourning our loved ones, wondering why on earth we're still being attacked and why nothing has been done about it.....but careful, dont offend anyone while we're fixing it.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			All this liberal softly softly guff is exactly why we're in this mess.... I'm glad some people on here can see sense and see we need action.  

I really hope those in power are actually planning on doing something about this....if it were left to the likes of some on here we'll be in this exact same position 2-5-10 years from now mourning our loved ones, wondering why on earth we're still being attacked and why nothing has been done about it.....but careful, dont offend anyone while we're fixing it.
		
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What "action" would you like to see and can you also show how it will stop terrorist attacks in this country ? 

All this "liberal soft etc" stuff isn't why we are in the mess.

I reckon those in power are planning nothing like what has been discussed on here in terms of the radical ideas


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2017)

Val said:



			100% agree and through finances at them to do it, if the government publicly came out and said we need to raise tax 1% to put more cops and armed units in the street I'd happily pay it.

*Given lots of these PC rules are enforced by he EU (European court of justice etc) surely Brexit (apologies for bringing this in but it's relevant) can help us in some way.*

I don't believe in deportation en masse but we need to have something to bring these people into line. Like I said earlier Guinard, it could be our version of Guantanamo.
		
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which is precisely why Brexit is utterly terrifying! At what point does this idea stop? Answer - it doesnt until you have an extremist government in place and no overarching legislation to keep them in check.


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## Region3 (May 26, 2017)

I'm fed up with the apparent need to consider everyone's feelings and fear of offending anyone when trying to deal with these situations.

22 people died earlier this week. I don't give a stuff if dozens/hundreds/thousands of people are offended or inconvenienced by the solution.


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## Crazyface (May 26, 2017)

Region3 said:



			I'm fed up with the apparent need to consider everyone's feelings and fear of offending anyone when trying to deal with these situations.

22 people died earlier this week. I don't give a stuff if dozens/hundreds/thousands of people are offended or inconvenienced by the solution.
		
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and me too


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I reckon those in power are planning nothing like what has been discussed on here in terms of the radical ideas
		
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Absolutely because for all their flaws they're not stupid. And you'd have to be stupid to adopt policies that would only make the situation worse.

Our country is what it is because we believe in the rule of law and human rights and we stand up and defend that even when it might seem expedient to do otherwise. 

If they make us change our principles, our way of life the terrorists will have won.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2017)

TheDiablo said:



			which is precisely why Brexit is utterly terrifying! At what point does this idea stop? Answer - it doesnt until you have an extremist government in place and no overarching legislation to keep them in check.
		
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Do you seriously think that just because we are leaving the EU the British government will suddenly become some kind of extreme dictatorship?? You think the EU keeps us in check??


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Do you seriously think that just because we are leaving the EU the British government will suddenly become some kind of extreme dictatorship?? You think the EU keeps us in check??
		
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of course not, and I haven't said that - you're reading between lines and making incorrect assumptions (shock!) 

But you haven't got to look too far back in history to see the social circumstances that lead to extremist governments getting elected - and then without legislation from a higher power any government would be free to implement whatever extremist legislation they please - again a quick look back into a history book would demonstrate this, and from some of the ridiculous posts on here they'd gain a worrying level of support!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2017)

TheDiablo said:



*of course not, and I haven't said that* - you're reading between lines and making incorrect assumptions (shock!) 

But you haven't got to look too far back in history to see the social circumstances that lead to extremist governments getting elected - and then without legislation from a higher power any government would be free to implement whatever extremist legislation they please - again a quick look back into a history book would demonstrate this, and from some of the ridiculous posts on here they'd gain a worrying level of support!!
		
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The way your post came across I read it as that is what you were implying. If that is not the case then why is Brexit terrifying?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

adam6177 said:



			All this liberal softly softly guff is exactly why we're in this mess.... I'm glad some people on here can see sense and see we need action.  

I really hope those in power are actually planning on doing something about this....if it were left to the likes of some on here we'll be in this exact same position 2-5-10 years from now mourning our loved ones, wondering why on earth we're still being attacked and why nothing has been done about it.....but careful, dont offend anyone while we're fixing it.
		
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Yet you fail to tell us what you are doing or have done about this threat and what action you advocate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I meant to say in modern law. 

I have no problem people choosing a religion to govern their daily lives. But it shouldn't be used as law. Or used by religious people to claim some sort of morale outrage.
		
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Nobody here is going to be making any laws - but people have their own views and it is these views at which my observation was made.  

We do not make for a stable nation by taking actions and putting in place measures that risk driving a wedge between various sections in our society.  That there are a few in our country intent on exploiting our differences to fracture our country is a fact.  But this can only be exacerbated by driving in further wedges by stigmatising, antagonising and ultimately alienating minority communities, when we should be identifying, exploiting and celebrating our similarities.  In this way those that seek to exploit the differences expose themselves for what they are.

And I did say that for many my views would be irrelevant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Region3 said:



			I'm fed up with the apparent need to consider everyone's feelings and fear of offending anyone when trying to deal with these situations.

22 people died earlier this week. I don't give a stuff if dozens/hundreds/thousands of people are offended or inconvenienced by the solution.
		
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5 people dies in a crash on the M6 on Wednesday morning - where is the outrage.  Each person is an individual.  That more died on Monday does not make the pain the friends and family of those who died in the crash any less.

Would you be happy for speed limits on motorways to be reduced to 40mph? - something that would cause much inconvenience but might well make less likely such terrible loss of life as of Wed morning.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nobody here is going to be making any laws - but people have their own views and it is these views at which my observation was made.  

We do not make for a stable nation by taking actions and putting in place measures that risk driving a wedge between various sections in our society.  That there are a few in our country intent on exploiting our differences to fracture our country is a fact.  But this can only be exacerbated by driving in further wedges by stigmatising, antagonising and ultimately alienating minority communities, when we should be identifying, exploiting and celebrating our similarities.  In this way those that seek to exploit the differences expose themselves for what they are.

And I did say that for many my views would be irrelevant.
		
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And as I said. My observation is religious people crying morale indignation. 

Peoples opinions on here aren't from a Christian POV, a Muslim POV, a Jewish POV. They're making them froma humanitarian POV. 

As you said. Some views a very unchristian. That in itself makes it sound like the Christian view is such a wonderful one. Like christians have done no wrong? &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Absolutely because for all their flaws they're not stupid. And you'd have to be stupid to adopt policies that would only make the situation worse.

Our country is what it is because we believe in the rule of law and human rights and we stand up and defend that even when it might seem expedient to do otherwise. 

If they make us change our principles, our way of life the terrorists will have won.
		
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Absolutely spot on.

Many here seem hell-bent on wanting actions and measures taken to protect 'our way of life', when these actions are IMO counter to the values and principles that *underpin *'our way of life' and hence will simply undermine it.  And eventually much of what we hold dear about living in the UK and that makes us British will collapse.  And it will be gone - never to regained.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			5 people dies in a crash on the M6 on Wednesday morning - where is the outrage.  Each person is an individual.  That more died on Monday does not make the pain the friends and family of those who died in the crash any less.

Would you be happy for speed limits on motorways to be reduced to 40mph? - something that would cause much inconvenience but might well make less likely such terrible loss of life as of Wed morning.
		
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Dealing with a loved ones death is never easy. 

But speaking from experience. Long term it's easier to deal with it if it was a tragic accident and not due through malicious intent. 

Road accidents are going to happen through pure statistics. People blowing people up should not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			And as I said. My observation is religious people crying morale indignation. 

Peoples opinions on here aren't from a Christian POV, a Muslim POV, a Jewish POV. They're making them froma humanitarian POV. 

As you said. Some views a very unchristian. That in itself makes it sound like the Christian view is such a wonderful one. Like christians have done no wrong? &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
		
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I'm not crying morale indignation - I'm simply saying that much of what is said and proposed here has been distinctly unChristian - and that is fine.  But I think we ignore or dismiss basic British principles and values at our peril.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Dealing with a loved ones death is never easy. 

But speaking from experience. Long term it's easier to deal with it if it was a tragic accident and not due through malicious intent. 

Road accidents are going to happen through pure statistics. *People blowing people up should not.*

Click to expand...

But they will.  And aircraft should never crash - but they do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The way your post came across I read it as that is what you were implying. If that is not the case then why is Brexit terrifying?
		
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because the way immigration will be dealt with, and the way existing and new immigrants will be viewed will change - especially when immigration does not reduce as many expect.  I fear antagonism will rise.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Absolutely because for all their flaws they're not stupid. And you'd have to be stupid to adopt policies that would only make the situation worse.

Our country is what it is because we believe in the rule of law and human rights and we stand up and defend that even when it might seem expedient to do otherwise. 

If they make us change our principles, our way of life the terrorists will have won.
		
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:clap: :clap:

My attitude entirely!

Maybe this article (from 'Seizing Travel Documents') will demonstrate that SOME powers exist that COULD curtail some of these atrocities! Not all encompassing, but pretty good given 'British values'! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40046562 And those that have their TDs or Passport confiscated will almost certainly be on some sort of watch list!

FWIW. I was very close (next tube I believe) to the Aldgate one in 7/7/05!


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			:clap: :clap:

My attitude entirely!ery
		
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You sound like someone from the legal profession, the only ones that gain from some of our badly made laws.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			because the way immigration will be dealt with, and the way existing and new immigrants will be viewed will change - especially when immigration does not reduce as many expect.  I fear antagonism will rise.
		
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I don't think you have anything to worry about. The only things that will change (if there ARE any changes) will be a stop put on unskilled  people coming here to work and a clampdown on possible terrorists. Other than that it will be carry on as we are. Many foreigners make a big contribution to our society, why should we stop that?


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Michelle O'Neil signs the book of condolences. Seems she has a short memory and it's now unacceptable to bomb innocent people in Manchester.


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## guest100718 (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Michelle O'Neil signs the book of condolences. Seems she has a short memory and it's now unacceptable to bomb innocent people in Manchester.
		
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probably best mates with Corbyn.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But they will.  And aircraft should never crash - but they do.
		
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An accident should not be judged the same as an act of intent.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Well our Jeeza along with a few here confirm the whole terrorists threat is because of the armed forces. Oh hang on, jihad nutters started blowing up westerners long before our involvement in the middle east.

This is the man who wants to be the leader of the UK.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Well our Jeeza along with a few here confirm the whole terrorists threat is because of the armed forces. Oh hang on, jihad nutters started blowing up westerners long before our involvement in the middle east.

This is the man who wants to be the leader of the UK.
		
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The ex-head of MI5 agreed with Corbyn. Maybe MI5 don't know anything about these matters...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Well our Jeeza along with a few here confirm the whole terrorists threat is because of the armed forces. Oh hang on, jihad nutters started blowing up westerners long before our involvement in the middle east.

This is the man who wants to be the leader of the UK.
		
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Nice play on words, not really what he said was it!


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			An accident should not be judged the same as an act of intent.
		
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Good point. There are loaaads more accidents than acts of intent. Probably worth focusing on them first. No cars about 40mph. Or in fact, no cars at all. Trains, planes and bikes. That is guaranteed to save more lives. Anything else we can do?


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## Junior (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			5 people dies in a crash on the M6 on Wednesday morning - where is the outrage.  Each person is an individual.  That more died on Monday does not make the pain the friends and family of those who died in the crash any less.

 Would you be happy for speed limits on motorways to be reduced to 40mph? - something that would cause much inconvenience but might well make less likely such terrible loss of life as of Wed morning.
		
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Both are tragedies in their own right, and the pain the families feel are not lessened in any way.  I don't know the specifics of what happened on the M6 (was a car speeding ? was someone on their mobile phone ?) but to strip it back to that level and compare what was effectively an tragic accident to a cold, calculated act of terrorism (murder) is ridiculous, wrong and disrespectful to those involved in the atrocities this week.   

We have to separate the terms 'terrorists' and 'muslim'.   We must treat these wasters as humans and punish them with the laws of our land, and the laws need strengthening.   We need to give our authorities the resources to investigate and PREVENT these acts of terrorism.  As I said previously, 8 people are now being detained in relation to the attack, and, the attacker was already known to be associated with terrorism.  What do they know now that they didn't know last week ?????  Whatever powers we need to give the authorities to pro-actively act as opposed to reactively act, need to be given.  I'm not saying detention without cause, but something stronger that we do not have today needs to be in place.  

A final point on separating muslims from terrorism.  There are muslims who contribute to our society and communities in multiple capacities.  it upsets me to think that muslim children in schools might be bullied because of the events that occurred this week.   These fanatics are a minority, and every muslim friend I have or work with condemn these attacks as we do.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Well our Jeeza along with a few here confirm the whole terrorists threat is because of the armed forces. Oh hang on, jihad nutters started blowing up westerners long before our involvement in the middle east.

This is the man who wants to be the leader of the UK.
		
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How many Jihad nutters killed Brits in the U.K. Before the wars in Iraq , Syria , Afghan , Libya ? 

The US have been involved in the Middle East for years hence Jihad nutters have attacked them


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many Jihad nutters killed Brits in the U.K. Before the wars in Iraq , Syria , Afghan , Libya ? 

The US have been involved in the Middle East for years hence Jihad nutters have attacked them
		
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Nice to know you are only interested in UK victims of terror. And before you jump on google tell me where US the overt operations where in the middle east prior to the first attack on their soil which was in 1993 or are you going to suggest that the majority of the countries that fought to free Kuwait were wrong.

As you are someone who in early posts seem to suggest that these problems are due to the wests actions abroad I find it was a bit hypocritical of you to keenly take the queens shilling and take part in these actions.

Popcorn anyone


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			The ex-head of MI5 agreed with Corbyn. Maybe MI5 don't know anything about these matters...
		
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Could be the reason they are Ex


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Nice to know you are only interested in UK victims of terror. And before you jump on google tell me where US the overt operations where in the middle east prior to the first attack on their soil which was in 1993 or are you going to suggest that the majority of the countries that fought to free Kuwait were wrong.

As you are someone who in early posts seem to suggest that these problems are due to the wests actions abroad I find it was a bit hypocritical of you to keenly take the queens shilling and take part in these actions.

Popcorn anyone
		
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That's quite a pathetic post even from you.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's quite a pathetic post even from you.
		
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Not quite able to sink to your level yet. I take it you disagree, or have no answer to facts.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not quite able to sink to your level yet. I take it you disagree, or have no answer to facts.
		
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You didn't provide any facts - you not for the first made assumptions and insulting remarks aimed towards my years off service. You're are not worth the effort to reply anymore


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You didn't provide any facts - you not for the first made assumptions and insulting remarks aimed towards my years off service. You're are not worth the effort to replay anymore
		
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Then as normal you choose not to read the original post and I have never remark on your prior service and in an open forum wouldnt, apart from being in the RAF I don't have a clue what your trade was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			An accident should not be judged the same as an act of intent.
		
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I see little difference for you or I.  We do what we can.  The authorities do all they can to endure aircraft are airworthy and so minimise the risk to the public; the authorities do all they can to monitor and deal with those who might do us harm - and to minimise the risk to the public.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Junior said:



			Both are tragedies in their own right, and the pain the families feel are not lessened in any way.  I don't know the specifics of what happened on the M6 (was a car speeding ? was someone on their mobile phone ?) but to strip it back to that level and compare what was effectively an tragic accident to a cold, calculated act of terrorism (murder) is ridiculous, wrong and disrespectful to those involved in the atrocities this week.   

We have to separate the terms 'terrorists' and 'muslim'.   We must treat these wasters as humans and punish them with the laws of our land, and the laws need strengthening.   We need to give our authorities the resources to investigate and PREVENT these acts of terrorism.  As I said previously, 8 people are now being detained in relation to the attack, and, the attacker was already known to be associated with terrorism.  What do they know now that they didn't know last week ?????  Whatever powers we need to give the authorities to pro-actively act as opposed to reactively act, need to be given.  I'm not saying detention without cause, but something stronger that we do not have today needs to be in place.  

A final point on separating muslims from terrorism.  There are muslims who contribute to our society and communities in multiple capacities.  it upsets me to think that muslim children in schools might be bullied because of the events that occurred this week.   These fanatics are a minority, and every muslim friend I have or work with condemn these attacks as we do.
		
Click to expand...

I am simply considering our *reaction* to the events.  By the sounds of it the passengers in the car were completely blameless - innocent victims - as of course were those who died on Monday night.  And of course there are things that the authorities could do to reduce the risk of multiple fatalities from such accidents.  But even though we are part of the community (drivers) from which the lorry driver comes - we would not expect to be treated as if we are all capable of being so involved, and would not be at all happy if, such as, the motorway speed limits were reduced to 50mph.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see little difference for you or I.  We do what we can.  The authorities do all they can to endure aircraft are airworthy and so minimise the risk to the public; the authorities do all they can to monitor and deal with those who might do us harm - and to minimise the risk to the public.
		
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The debate we were going down was on the outrage and pain they can cause. 

Neither are are likely to never happen. BUT one is my pure bad luck. The other evil planning. 

If you genuinely believe an accident is as unfortunate as being murdered then that's your prerogative. As someone who's been effected by both. I know which i still feel anger about.


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## Kellfire (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			The debate we were going down was on the outrage and pain they can cause. 

Neither are are likely to never happen. BUT one is my pure bad luck. The other evil planning. 

If you genuinely believe an accident is as unfortunate as being murdered then that's your prerogative. As someone who's been effected by both. I know which i still feel anger about.
		
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Something is either unfortunate or it isn't. Accidents and being murdered are both clearly unfortunate.

It would make the most sense to save the most lives we can, right? So the speeding analogy stands.


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## Junior (May 26, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Something is either unfortunate or it isn't. Accidents and being murdered are both clearly unfortunate.

It would make the most sense to save the most lives we can, right? So the speeding analogy stands.
		
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I guess it depends on perspective.  An 'unfortunate accident' and an 'unfortunate murder' are certainly not the same in my mind.  One is pre meditated, the other is not. 

I see what your saying regarding ratio but it does not sit well in this analogy because there is pre-meditation in one act, not the other.  Someone is consciously trying to murder someone.   
Also, Irrespective of the speed limit, if a driver wants to do 90, they will.  Whether the limit is 40, 50 or 70.


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## Slime (May 26, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So you wake up in the morning and your the new PM.
What would you change?
		
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1.  Bring back the death penalty.
2.  Legalise euthanasia.
3.  Employ Fish as my Deputy Prime Minister.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

We could be so outraged by the fact that 5 innocent people died in a high speed crash that we demand action - that we demand that lorries can only drive at night and in the inside lane; and/or reduce the speed limit for all vehicles to 50mph or indeed less.  

We know that these measures would reduce the likelihood of such an accident ever happening again, but we do not demand them.  Why not?  I would guess because we know that they would impact our own lives directly, and whilst we can accept a bit of change - that would be too much.  

And whilst we demand action to be taken we do not want that action to cause too much inconvenience to ourselves, so indeed I suspect that more of us might support a ban on lorries on motorways during the day than might support a reduction in the speed limit.

So to the matter of Monday.  Many seem happen to impose maximum inconvenience, disruption and heartache on others - as long as they themselves aren't overly affected.

Just how I read it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Junior said:



			I guess it depends on perspective.  An 'unfortunate accident' and an 'unfortunate murder' are certainly not the same in my mind.  One is pre meditated, the other is not. 

I see what your saying regarding ratio but it does not sit well in this analogy because there is pre-meditation in one act, not the other.  Someone is consciously trying to murder someone.   
Also, Irrespective of the speed limit, if a driver wants to do 90, they will.  Whether the limit is 40, 50 or 70.
		
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Yes - but there are ways - so if cars have speed limiters or if the penalty is an immediate ban.  But yes, I don't want to stretch the analogy too far.  

It is our reaction to one event compared with our reaction to the other that I am curious about.  With one, some here demand changes to our laws that would go against some of our basic values and what has made the country great - the other? Nothing - silence.


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## Region3 (May 26, 2017)

Doing 70mph on a motorway doesn't _cause_ accidents.

Driving faster than 70mph, not paying attention, driving too close to the car in front etc cause accidents.

The motorway analogy is akin to suggesting banning pop concerts.


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## Region3 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With one, some here demand changes to our laws that would go against some of our basic values and what has made the country great - the other? Nothing - silence.
		
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Are we great again now? I thought we were embarrassing to you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Region3 said:



			Are we great again now? I thought we were embarrassing to you.
		
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what *made *the country great


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but there are ways - so if cars have speed limiters or if the penalty is an immediate ban.  But yes, I don't want to stretch the analogy too far.  

It is our reaction to one event compared with our reaction to the other that I am curious about.  With one, some here demand changes to our laws that would go against some of our basic values and what has made the country great - the other? Nothing - silence.
		
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Your trying to compare peoples outrage levels between an accident and cold blooded murder. Whilst they may be the same to you. To most they are not. 

If a a small child walks in front of a car doing 10mph they are in trouble. The speed limit of 70 is t what results in accidents. The very definition of an accident is an unfortunate event that cannot be predicted. If it happens through wreck less driving then the person at fault should be dealt with. 

But wholst it would hypocritical of me to say I've never sped in a Vehicle. To my mind, there is a clear distinction between driving a few miles over the limit and beliving you are in control, and strapping a bomb to yourself and setting it off with children close by.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Your trying to compare peoples outrage levels between an accident and cold blooded murder. Whilst they may be the same to you. To most they are not. 

If a a small child walks in front of a car doing 10mph they are in trouble. The speed limit of 70 is t what results in accidents. The very definition of an accident is an unfortunate event that cannot be predicted. If it happens through wreck less driving then the person at fault should be dealt with. 

But wholst it would hypocritical of me to say I've never sped in a Vehicle. To my mind, there is a clear distinction between driving a few miles over the limit and beliving you are in control, and strapping a bomb to yourself and setting it off with children close by.
		
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The events are very, very different - for individuals, the outcome is the same.  Why do we express absolutely no outrage with one - and an outrage at the other that some would have us changing some of our basic values.


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## Region3 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what *made *the country great
		
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Which was what?

Serious question.


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## IainP (May 26, 2017)

This is most likely drifting off topic, and next we may be debating the acronyms R.T.C. vs. R.T.A. and the intricacies of our English language.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The events are very, very different - for individuals, the outcome is the same.
		
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The final outcome of death is the same. The repercussions are very different. 

Someone slips in a bar a spills a drink on you. Both laugh it on and on your way. 

Someone walks up to to you and throws a pint over you. Pretty sure you don't shake hands over it.

Both the same outcome, but one clearly causes a different reaction/feeling. 

I cant believe someone believes accidental death and murder are the same. 

Im out. Time to go and have a look at brexit.


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## Slime (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The events are very, very different - for individuals, the outcome is the same.  *Why do we express absolutely no outrage with one - and an outrage at the other *that some would have us changing some of our basic values.
		
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Because one is an accident and the other is a cold blooded, premeditated act of mass murder.
To me there's a difference, a huge difference.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

IainP said:



			This is most likely drifting off topic, and next we may be debating the acronyms R.T.C. vs. R.T.A. and the intricacies of our English language.
		
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I'm a RTC man myself as very few are "accidents" but caused by driver error, and what some driers stupidity has anything to do with this thread I am at a loss to understand.


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## Smiffy (May 26, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone born in the U.K. Is a British Citizen by birth right - it's a simple as that , you can't suddenly decide to stop giving that right just because their family moved to the UK from a Middle East country - that's clearly a racist policy based on their religion.
		
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I don't care whether they are a British Citizen by birth or a Klingon beamed down here from the Starship Enterprise.
If they stand on a street corner shouting out "Murder British troops" or "Death to the royal family" or burn our country's flag, kick 'em out.
I don't care where, I just want them out of my country because they aren't worth a toss.
As  far as I  am concerned, by spouting the rubbish they spout, they have given up all rights to be here.
Simples.


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## guest100718 (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I don't care whether they are a British Citizen by birth or a Klingon beamed down here from the Starship Enterprise.
If they stand on a street corner shouting out "Murder British troops" or "Death to the royal family" or burn our country's flag, kick 'em out.
I don't care where, I just want them out of my country because they aren't worth a toss.
As  far as I  am concerned, by spouting the rubbish they spout, they have given up all rights to be here.
Simples.
		
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Yeah deport them to where they came from!!!!!

what's that....

oh....

....


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## Smiffy (May 26, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Yeah deport them to where they came from!!!!!

what's that....

oh....

....
		
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I did say I wasn't fussed where..
Could  be at the bottom of the channel with a lump of concrete  attached to them for all I care.


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## guest100718 (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I did say I wasn't fussed where..
Could  be at the bottom of the channel with a lump of concrete  attached to them for all I care.
		
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A well reasoned view as ever.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I did say I wasn't fussed where..
Could  be at the bottom of the channel with a lump of concrete  attached to them for all I care.
		
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Fair shout. Cuts out the costs.


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## Smiffy (May 26, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			A well reasoned view as ever.
		
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Thank you


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

Goodness this has escalated quickly.
Murdering anti Royalists, did that not happen before Cromwells era.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness this has escalated quickly.
Murdering anti Royalists, did that not happen before Cromwells era.
		
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Back fishing


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## Slime (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I don't care whether they are a British Citizen by birth or a Klingon beamed down here from the Starship Enterprise.
If they stand on a street corner shouting out "Murder British troops" or "Death to the royal family" or burn our country's flag, kick 'em out.
I don't care where, I just want them out of my country because they aren't worth a toss.
As  far as I  am concerned, by spouting the rubbish they spout, they have given up all rights to be here.
Simples.
		
Click to expand...

:clap::clap::clap:


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## Slime (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I did say I wasn't fussed where..
Could  be at the bottom of the channel with a lump of concrete  attached to them for all I care.
		
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also :clap::clap::clap:


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

In no way, shape or form do I believe the sickening bomb attack on Manchester and a car crash on a motorway are in any way comparable.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			In no way, shape or form do I believe the sickening bomb attack on Manchester and a car crash on a motorway are in any way comparable.
		
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Thanks heavens for that, I thought I was on another thread.


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## Smiffy (May 26, 2017)

If I walked into a strange pub, stood in the middle of the bar and threatened to kill the landlord and all his staff I'd get locked up despite being a British citizen.


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## Fish (May 26, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			If I walked into a strange pub, stood in the middle of the bar and threatened to kill the landlord and all his staff I'd get locked up despite being a British citizen.
		
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You'd get knocked out first &#128540;


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## Fish (May 26, 2017)

Slime said:



			1.  Bring back the death penalty.
2.  Legalise euthanasia.
3.  Employ Fish as my Deputy Prime Minister.
		
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&#128077; 
Slime for PM &#128540;


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## IanM (May 26, 2017)

Anyone sees the young Muslim lass on Question Time? 

Nailed it.  I hope she doesn't pay for her comments with her life


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Fish said:



			&#128077; 
Slime for PM &#128540;
		
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As long as it wasn't an import job like Defence Secretary.


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## woody69 (May 27, 2017)

Good video
[video=youtube_share;b431iD6dIg4]https://youtu.be/b431iD6dIg4[/video]


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## User62651 (May 27, 2017)

woody69 said:



			Good video
[video=youtube_share;b431iD6dIg4]https://youtu.be/b431iD6dIg4[/video]
		
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Hope everyone who's posted on this thread watches it. They need to.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2017)

Goodness me 2.

We now have some people supporting the death penalty for suicide bombers.
How will that work?


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## Slime (May 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me 2.

We now have some people supporting the *death penalty for suicide bombers*.
How will that work?
		
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Who said that? I must have missed that post, but I don't think so ............... was it removed?


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## bobmac (May 27, 2017)

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/24/ex-ukip-mep-calls-for-death-penalty-for-suicide-bombers-6658334/


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## Slime (May 27, 2017)

bobmac said:



http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/24/ex-ukip-mep-calls-for-death-penalty-for-suicide-bombers-6658334/

Click to expand...

I've just read this through three times and I don't know where the Metro got their headline from .................... typical sensationalistic journalism I'm afraid.

What she actually said was;
 "Today, we should announce that the death penalty will be brought back for terrorist crimes".
Not all terrorists end up dead as a result of their act.


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## woody69 (May 27, 2017)

Slime said:



			I've just read this through three times and I don't know where the Metro got their headline from .................... typical sensationalistic journalism I'm afraid.

What she actually said was;
 "Today, we should announce that the death penalty will be brought back for terrorist crimes".
Not all terrorists end up dead as a result of their act.
		
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The death penalty is pointless and has no place in a civilised society. It doesn't act as a deterrent


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2017)

woody69 said:



			Good video
[video=youtube_share;b431iD6dIg4]https://youtu.be/b431iD6dIg4[/video]
		
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Very good


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## Slime (May 27, 2017)

woody69 said:



			The death penalty is pointless and has no place in a civilised society. *It doesn't act as a deterrent*

Click to expand...

But it would certainly prevent them from re-offending after their release.
Also, whilst we are struggling to look after are ageing population properly, why should we spend fortunes keeping these people alive.


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## bobmac (May 27, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Hope everyone who's posted on this thread watches it. They need to.
		
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Why?


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## woody69 (May 27, 2017)

Slime said:



			But it would certainly prevent them from re-offending after their release.
Also, whilst we are struggling to look after are ageing population properly, why should we spend fortunes keeping these people alive.
		
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Setting aside the moral side of the argument and the fact it wouldn't deter offenders from committing the crimes in the first place, plus all the other arguments that generally capital punishment is a consequence of a poor defence at trial and one of the most frequent reasons that death penalty decisions are reversed, you could also consider it is highly likely that a mentally ill person will be the one executed. For example, the 20 year old man who has just been sentenced to 15 years for putting that homemade bomb on a tube who suffers from Autism. If his crime was classified as terror related your suggestion would see him executed.

But yeah, setting all those reasons aside, I'm afraid to say you are wrong with regards to the costs. It costs significantly more for cases that have the death penalty applied. Using the US as a benchmark, I believe the costs have cases without the death penalty costing around $750k versus $1.26m where the death penalty is sought and that is for the trial alone. It is then almost $100k per year more to keep that inmate on death row than one kept in general population. With the average time on death row in the states being around 15 years, due to appeals and claims of habeas corpus, it costs on average around $1.5m. An inmate who is sentenced to life without parole is significantly cheaper than that.


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## Slime (May 27, 2017)

woody69 said:



			Setting aside the moral side of the argument and the fact it wouldn't deter offenders from committing the crimes in the first place, plus all the other arguments that generally capital punishment is a consequence of a poor defence at trial and one of the most frequent reasons that death penalty decisions are reversed, you could also consider it is highly likely that a mentally ill person will be the one executed. For example, the 20 year old man who has just been sentenced to 15 years for putting that homemade bomb on a tube who suffers from Autism. If his crime was classified as terror related your suggestion would see him executed.

But yeah, setting all those reasons aside, I'm afraid to say you are wrong with regards to the costs. It costs significantly more for cases that have the death penalty applied. Using the US as a benchmark, I believe the costs have cases without the death penalty costing around $750k versus $1.26m where the death penalty is sought and that is for the trial alone. It is then almost $100k per year more to keep that inmate on death row than one kept in general population. *With the average time on death row in the states being around 15 years,* due to appeals and claims of habeas corpus, it costs on average around $1.5m. An inmate who is sentenced to life without parole is significantly cheaper than that.
		
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This isn't the States.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Slime said:



			But it would certainly prevent them from re-offending after their release.
Also, whilst we are struggling to look after are ageing population properly, why should we spend fortunes keeping these people alive.
		
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I think you are totally missing the point.
Terrorists are not afraid to die, if the state kills them they then become martyrs and recruiting agents. 
The best thing you can do is imprison them for life as they are then failures and are ignored by all.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you are totally missing the point.
Terrorists are not afraid to die, if the state kills them they then become martyrs and recruiting agents. 
The best thing you can do is imprison them for life as they are then failures and are ignored by all.
		
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Totally agree with this, but would take it further. I believe the prison authorities are already segregating them in prison. I would include no visitors in that segregation.

No water boarding but a prisoner can buy simple things like access to a prison radio/TV service, with heavily censored content, by good behaviour and co-operating with the authorities.


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## woody69 (May 28, 2017)

Slime said:



			This isn't the States.
		
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An excellent point. I can't argue with that.


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