# Odds on Hibs Going Straight Back Up



## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2014)

Hibees joining The Rangers and Hearts in the Scottish Championship League.

Well done The Accies, good comeback.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Good on Hamilton, well deserved

Someone (who don't believe they belong) is going to spend at least two seasons in the Championship  

An aside, how quickly did they get through the pen shootout! We've often seen the elite players in 'big' games' take three times as long


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## Adi2Dassler (May 26, 2014)

Well done Hamilton, who I honestly believe are a below average team who'll get relegated by quite a margin next season.But credit where it's due, they were far superior to us yesterday, which is an utter disgrace.

Hibs have already announced Butcher is staying, which I find incredible...all we needed was one victory in the bottom six, just one and he failed.Blame has to be shared though, with the owner,chairman and players all taking their fair share.

Next season I genuinely can't see how we'll get back up, but I'm awfy sore just now and over the course of the next few weeks my opinion might change.I doubt it will, though.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Fair play for posting while its still so raw 

I had 10 months to get used to the idea of championship football for Hearts (& even after 2 months I still dreamed) 

I do think Hibs being there will help make the Championship more exciting next year and the race for Europe aside it'll make the league more exciting than the SPL with likely a 4 way race for top two spots


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## Adi2Dassler (May 26, 2014)

Slab said:



			Fair play for posting while its still so raw 

I had 10 months to get used to the idea of championship football for Hearts (& even after 2 months I still dreamed) 

I do think Hibs being there will help make the Championship more exciting next year and the race for Europe aside it'll make the league more exciting than the SPL with likely a 4 way race for top two spots
		
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After THAT semi and THAT final I actively looked for jambo friends and neighbours and fronted up, I was never gonna hide from anyone when it came to my club.I'm ashamed to admit last night and this morning I hid from them deliberately.I'm ashamed of what my club has become, how they've let me down at each and every opportunity they've had.

Look at Rangers and Hearts, now our direct competitors.Both have sought success by over spending and they've seen trophies won and had outstanding days out.Then compare to Hibs, been frugal to the extreme, sold talent and replaced with guff.

I have to ask the question, who was right and who was wrong as my previous belief that we were right looks to be misplaced.


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2014)

Going back to the split I honestly couldn't see Hibs getting relegated but they have got on a nightmare run. Even at 2-0 from the first leg I didn't think they were safe but they should have been able to hang on to that.

HID was at the game yesterday and was pretty resigned to the outcome (grumpy though!). She also said that Hibs were hopeless.

Impossible to say how it'll go next year. I don't think Butcher is a bad manager but he has certainly failed at Hibs so far. Maybe he can move players on and bring some in and turn it round but, yes, I'm a little bit surprised he's getting that opportunity.

Should be an interesting division. Hibs, Hearts, Rangers obviously but the likes of Falkirk can't be dismissed either. Rangers also need to strengthen if they're going to go up but, at the moment, it's impossible to say whether they'll even be in good enough financial shape to play never mind signing any new players. I'd say Hibs could go right back up but it will be much harder than the last time they went down and I won't be betting on it!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

As the three teams stand at the moment I think Hearts will be favourite for promotion.
There are also some other decent teams in that league Raith, Falkirk etc so it will not be a walk in the park.

There will probably be more interest in the Championship next year with the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most supported teams in Scotland competing.


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Comedy Gold.

Butcher...what exactly has he ever done?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

The Scottish Prem and Scottish Football need Rangers to win the title and be promoted - grab some interest again and sponsorship and telly money back into the leagues.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			After THAT semi and THAT final I actively looked for jambo friends and neighbours and fronted up, I was never gonna hide from anyone when it came to my club.I'm ashamed to admit last night and this morning I hid from them deliberately.I'm ashamed of what my club has become, how they've let me down at each and every opportunity they've had.

Look at Rangers and Hearts, now our direct competitors.Both have sought success by over spending and they've seen trophies won and had outstanding days out.Then compare to Hibs, been frugal to the extreme, sold talent and replaced with guff.

I have to ask the question, who was right and who was wrong as my previous belief that we were right looks to be misplaced.
		
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I know what you mean, when administration hit I asked myself if I'd swap _that_ final for the 1-5 point deduction & certain relegation 

I was huddled in the back of a pub watching on my laptop on a stream that keep freezing with a Dundee Utd fan at my side as the only Scots in town... and it was incredible!!  

In all honesty I couldn't swap it, its why we're fans, its the chance of glory without being an old firm glory hunter, its through the bad times sure but the odd good time helps soo much...  I said to myself would you be willing to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here... oops sorry off on a tangent there 

_(p.s. see what I did there with the 15  )_


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Scottish Prem and Scottish Football need Rangers to win the title and be promoted - grab some interest again and sponsorship and telly money back into the leagues.
		
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I think that's more than a little naive!


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## Adi2Dassler (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Butcher...what exactly has he ever done?
		
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Relegated 3 spl teams.And rewarded handsomely for it.


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Relegated 3 spl teams.And rewarded handsomely for it.
		
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Exactly and his record in England is hardly handsome either.

Dreadful Manager.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Slab said:



			I think that's more than a little naive!
		
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But very realistic - old firm derbies would increase outside interest at the very least


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Relegated 3 spl teams.And rewarded handsomely for it.
		
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I don't think so?

Moderately successful at Motherwell and Inverness, won ICT the first division and promotion.

I could be wrong but think this is his first relegation?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But very realistic - old firm derbies would increase outside interest at the very least
		
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Trouble is it is generally the wrong sort of interest.

The last two seasons have been a breath of fresh air for your average Scottish football fans.
Phil I think you are not up to speed with your views of Scottish fitba.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But very realistic - old firm derbies would increase outside interest at the very least
		
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Unfortunately _outside interest_ doesn't really benefit Scottish football


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trouble is it is generally the wrong sort of interest.

The last two seasons have been a breath of fresh air for your average Scottish football fans.
Phil I think you are not up to speed with your views of Scottish fitba.
		
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Scottish football is a one team league with interest outside Scotland very low - that interest is what brings the money into the leagues and the telly money. I believe the league has lost it's sponsor currently and telly deal is very minimal - the snowball effect from the lack of competition could harm the overall league and drop the standard down to the welsh league and loss of European slots.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Slab said:



			Unfortunately _outside interest_ doesn't really benefit Scottish football
		
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It does if countries look to purchase the pictures and sponsorship can see the worldwide appeal - that money goes into the Scottish leagues.


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## Adi2Dassler (May 26, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think so?

Moderately successful at Motherwell and Inverness, won ICT the first division and promotion.

I could be wrong but think this is his first relegation?
		
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Apologies, 2.Fat fingers. ICT and Hibs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But very realistic - old firm derbies would increase outside interest at the very least
		
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Not according to the viewing figures south of the border when Rangers were last in the SPL. 

When they first started to show the OF game there was some interest as, apparently, many English viewers thought that they would still see the superstars of the '90s.
Once they realised this was not the case interest Down South dried up.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Not according to the viewing figures south of the border when Rangers were last in the SPL. 

When they first started to show the OF game there was some interest as, apparently, many English viewers thought that they would still see the superstars of the '90s.
Once they realised this was not the case interest Down South dried up.
		
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Sorry I meant worldwide as opposed to here below the wall

Have a quick read of this article from 3 years when Rangers left 

http://www.theawayend.net/articles/...ish-football-afford-rangers-in-the-third-tier


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)




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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Apologies, 2.Fat fingers. ICT and Hibs.
		
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I stand corrected! 

Although, looks like a similar scenario - took over a struggling team, failed to save them that first season. I'd guess Hibs fans will be relatively happy if he turns them round in the same we he managed with Inverness?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

Rangers and Celtic had a big worldwide audience due to the thousands of emigrating Scots in the early 1950's.
Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, England etc. 

That group is now in third generation and the interest is waning with time.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Scottish football is a one team league with interest outside Scotland very low - that interest is what brings the money into the leagues and the telly money. I believe the league has lost it's sponsor currently and telly deal is very minimal - the snowball effect from the lack of competition could harm the overall league and drop the standard down to the welsh league and loss of European slots.
		
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Ah c'mon Phil the EPL isn't successful because it was a great product with lots of outside interest! 

Its successful now because a TV company took a punt on a dying league that they thought showed some potential to make the TV company rich and persuaded the EFL & the top clubs they could be rich too


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## StrangelyBrown (May 26, 2014)

It'd take a massive amount of change to the squad to enable us to compete with Hearts, Rangers and Falkirk. We know that Rod Petrie is frugal/tighter than a gnat's chuff (delete as applicable), so I can't see how we can attract the kind of talent that would be required.


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## Slab (May 26, 2014)

StrangelyBrown said:



			It'd take a massive amount of change to the squad to enable us to compete with Hearts, Rangers and Falkirk. We know that Rod Petrie is frugal/tighter than a gnat's chuff (delete as applicable), so I can't see how we can attract the kind of talent that would be required.
		
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Can't believe I'm going to try and put a positive spin on things for a Hibs fan....

Yesterday shows you can get a crowd in (the guys on the pitch just need to figure out out to keep them there until the final whistle) but the fan base is clearly there and of a size that can generate income and allow expenditure above most other clubs 

Maybe tough to hear today but there's every chance Hibs will be competitive in next years race to get promotion (just don't do too well)


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## StrangelyBrown (May 26, 2014)

Slab said:



			Can't believe I'm going to try and put a positive spin on things for a Hibs fan....

Yesterday shows you can get a crowd in (the guys on the pitch just need to figure out out to keep them there until the final whistle) but the fan base is clearly there and of a size that can generate income and allow expenditure above most other clubs 

Maybe tough to hear today but there's every chance Hibs will be competitive in next years race to get promotion (just don't do too well)
		
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Alec McLeish managed to bounce back when we were relegated in 1998, but the old Div 1 / Championship wasn't as strong then as it will be next season.

Terry Butcher has experience of this before, and maybe relegation will be the spark to clear out the dead wood and we all know that it is needing to happen.

Also, it would be remiss of me not to congratulate Accies. They were by far the better team yesterday, they simply wanted to win more than the team in green.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Scottish Prem and Scottish Football need Rangers to win the title and be promoted - grab some interest again and sponsorship and telly money back into the leagues.
		
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Fortunately there will be a few teams willing and able to stop that happening.  A year or two for Rangers in the Championship won't do the Scottish Premiership any harm and will maybe do Rangers a little bit of good.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 26, 2014)

There are more pandas now in Edinburgh than Scottish Premier League teams.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Is Scotland now the only footballing nation where there are no teams from the capital city in the top league?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:








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Very good!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Is Scotland now the only footballing nation where there are no teams from the capital city in the top league?
		
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Cardiff


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Is Scotland now the only footballing nation where there are no teams from the capital city in the top league?
		
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Possibly.

There are now more Panda's in Edinburgh than top league football teams.


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Possibly.

There are now more Panda's in Edinburgh than top league football teams.
		
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That was true even before yesterday's game!


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## Adi2Dassler (May 26, 2014)

Since the start of competitive football and a league structure, Edinburgh has had at least one representative team...until today.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cardiff
		
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Wales is a bit of an aberration though, all 4 of their top teams play in England.


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## Alan (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Scottish Prem and Scottish Football need Rangers to win the title and be promoted - grab some interest again and sponsorship and telly money back into the leagues.
		
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Total crap, the leagues are far better without that lot in it. Hopefully they will fold this summer again and Celtic will bugger off too.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Alan said:



			Total crap, the leagues are far better without that lot in it. Hopefully they will fold this summer again and Celtic will bugger off too.
		
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in what way are they better ?


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## Alan (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			in what way are they better ?
		
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Where do you start.

Crowds are up with every team apart from Celtic
Every city in Scotland has been free of the minority of these fuds in their cities. 
The Silverware has been shared through four new teams 
The corrupt SFA are clueless on how to justify their Armageddon statement. 
Footballs better
Lots of young talent now being developed and not being media groomed by the Daily Record as the Huns next big signing
Better all round feeling about our game.
Scotland's coefficient higher than in the last 15 years
National team doing better. 
Etc etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Alan said:



			Where do you start.

Crowds are up with every team apart from Celtic
Every city in Scotland has been free of the minority of these fuds in their cities. 
The Silverware has been shared through four new teams 
The corrupt SFA are clueless on how to justify their Armageddon statement. 
Footballs better
Lots of young talent now being developed and not being media groomed by the Daily Record as the Huns next big signing
Better all round feeling about our game.
Scotland's coefficient higher than in the last 15 years
National team doing better. 
Etc etc.
		
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But only one winner possible of the league ?

No clubs able to get into the group stage of the Europa

League without a sponser and drop in telly money 

Celtic are the highest co efficent in Europe at 62 - below even Fulham then Rangers at 92 - so in danger of losing European slots in further qualifying rounds

Got the country at 23 in Europe below teams like Cyprus and Israel and a points drop from last year - currently at 3.250


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But only one winner possible of the league ?

No clubs able to get into the group stage of the Europa

League without a sponser and drop in telly money 

Celtic are the highest co efficent in Europe at 62 - below even Fulham then Rangers at 92 - so in danger of losing European slots in further qualifying rounds

*Got the country at 23 in Europe* below teams like Cyprus and Israel and a points drop from last year - currently at 3.250
		
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http://www.fifa.com/worldranking/rankingtable/index.html 22 in World and up from mid seventies when Rangers died.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

And there's that use of the word Hun again. Deemed to be a derogatory term for Protestant, and they say that Rangers and Celtic fans are bigots.........


http://nilbymouth.org/history/


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## wrighty1874 (May 26, 2014)

Sad day for Edinburgh, but financially I think it's better for Hearts and Hibs to remain in the same division. My mate, a Hibs fan actually thinks Hearts will recover quicker than them and tells me Rangers are in danger of going bust again.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



http://www.fifa.com/worldranking/rankingtable/index.html 22 in World and up from mid seventies when Rangers died.
		
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And these are the crucial ranking that go towards qualification pots for your clubs in Europe

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/

and these for your countries seeding

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/competitions/General/02/04/77/16/2047716_DOWNLOAD.pdf


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And these are the crucial ranking that go towards qualification pots for your clubs in Europe

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/

and these for your countries seeding

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/competitions/General/02/04/77/16/2047716_DOWNLOAD.pdf

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I didn't mention the club co-efficient ranking. That is only going to continue to fall sadly but while it improved it improved due to one team's financial doping which ultimately lead to their death R.I.P.

The National teams ranking is improving since Avril went and funnily enough since the death of Rangers.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I didn't mention the club co-efficient ranking. That is only going to continue to fall sadly but while it improved it improved due to one team's financial doping which ultimately lead to their death R.I.P.

The National teams ranking is improving since Avril went and funnily enough since the death of Rangers.
		
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What is this financial doping you speak of?


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			What is this financial doping you speak of?
		
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The spending of money that your lot could not afford to buy players.

Next you'll be telling me it was simply high electric bills that caused the death.:smirk:


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The spending of money that your lot could not afford to buy players.

Next you'll be telling me it was simply high electric bills that caused the death.:smirk:
		
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This financial doping 

http://www.burges-salmon.com/Practices/tax/executive_tax/News/10653.aspx

The one where they found in favour of Rangers? All trophies and titles won fair and square.

Edit: Never ceases to amaze me how threads about Scottish Football always get dragged down to slagging off Rangers, usually by the same suspects it has to be said. And it's usually half truths and hearsay as well. 

 They hate us but can't stop talking about us. Lol
#allabouttherangers


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I didn't mention the club co-efficient ranking. That is only going to continue to fall sadly but while it improved it improved due to one team's financial doping which ultimately lead to their death R.I.P.

The National teams ranking is improving since Avril went and funnily enough since the death of Rangers.
		
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The national team rankings dont help out the seedings etc - they improved after a couple of wins against Croatia( good wins ) from a squad with most of the players based in England ( 7 players playing in Scotland ) in WC Qualifying ( ended up 15 points behind Belguim in 4th )


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			This financial doping 

http://www.burges-salmon.com/Practices/tax/executive_tax/News/10653.aspx

The one where they found in favour of Rangers? All trophies and titles one fair and square.
		
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No not that one but the one that lead to this....


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			No not that one but the one that lead to this....






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 Lol. Like I said in a previous thread, when you don't have an answer.......



Anyway, nighty night. I look forward to your next instalment of 'but their pure deid n aw that, it's jist no fair'


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The national team rankings dont help out the seedings etc - they improved after a couple of wins against Croatia( good wins ) from a squad with most of the players based in England ( 7 players playing in Scotland ) in WC Qualifying ( ended up 15 points behind Belguim in 4th )
		
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I am well aware of where we finished but I am not sure what relevance where the players ply their trade is in context to this thread.

Anyone would think you were trying to engineer an us versus them thing.


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Lol. Like I said in a previous thread, when you don't have an answer.......



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I've given you an answer.

You spent money that you didn't have,much of it on players that had you lived within your means you would not have signed and that lead to that happy day your club died.

Is that clear enough?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I am well aware of where we finished but I am not sure what relevance where the players ply their trade is in context to this thread.

Anyone would think you were trying to engineer an us versus them thing.
		
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Well its relevant when the National teams recent rise is attributed towards Rangers leaving the Scottish Prem and the league being "better" without them ( someone also said it would be better without Celtic as well )

Hence why i mentioned that the majority of players in the improving Scottish National Team are based below the wall in the English leagues.


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well its relevant when the National teams recent rise is attributed towards Rangers leaving the Scottish Prem and the league being "better" without them ( someone also said it would be better without Celtic as well )

Hence why i mentioned that the majority of players in the improving Scottish National Team are based below the wall in the English leagues.
		
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It has been like that for a long long time,it's not new.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			It has been like that for a long long time,it's not new.
		
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So when someones says the national team is better because the league is better its not correct ?


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I've given you an answer.

You spent money that you didn't have,much of it on players that had you lived within your means you would not have signed and that lead to that happy day your club died.

Is that clear enough?
		
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Dodger we went under because one man (craig whyte) did not pay a tax bill we could easily have afforded , prefering to fill his pocket and the guys stepping in to purchase the club afterwards wanted the slate wiped clean as they couldn't take the gamble on the EBT case (which we won).

That's the simplified version. Clear enough?

Out of curiosity, do you attack Hearts, Killie, Dunfermline, Dundee, Motherwell etc etc as much for their clubs financial mismanagement?


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when someones says the national team is better because the league is better its not correct ?
		
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The league is certainly no worse and any of the players that were with Rangers are playing elsewhere and are still involved in the National team,their talents have certainly not diminished due to them leaving Rangers.

For me the National Team is better because we have got rid of the feckless clown that was in charge,nothing to do with the league being better or worse for whatever reason.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The league is certainly no worse and any of the players that were with Rangers are playing elsewhere and are still involved in the National team,their talents have certainly not diminished due to them leaving Rangers.

*For me the National Team is better because we have got rid of the feckless clown that was in charge,nothing to do with the league being better or worse for whatever reason*.
		
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Sounds about right to me :thup:


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## Dodger (May 26, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Dodger we went under because one man (craig whyte) did not pay a tax bill we could easily have afforded , prefering to fill his pocket and the guys stepping in to purchase the club afterwards wanted the slate wiped clean as they couldn't take the gamble on the EBT case (which we won).

That's the simplified version. Clear enough?

Out of curiosity, do you attack Hearts, Killie, Dunfermline, Dundee, Motherwell etc etc as much for their clubs financial mismanagement?
		
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The financial mismanagement started long before Moonbeams jumped ship and chucked it over to Whyte.

I reserve the right to point the finger at any club but I know that pointing it firmly at your lot always gets a rise regardless of how correct my points are and never ceases to amuse me.

And if the boot was on the other foot.......it's all good fun and I hope you do take it that way.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The financial mismanagement started long before Moonbeams jumped ship and chucked it over to Whyte.

I reserve the right to point the finger at any club but I know that pointing it firmly at your lot always gets a rise regardless of how correct my points are and never ceases to amuse me.

And if the boot was on the other foot.......it's all good fun and I hope you do take it that way.
		
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I do take it that way.:thup: you're wrong about the boot though, years back I remember talking with my mate (a jungle regular) saying I hoped you lot never folded ( prior to the bunnet) as I felt the game needed both clubs. 

I will concede I get pissed at the untruths (but that's me in general tbf) and the ones who load the bullets for others to fire the gun so to speak. At least you fire your own gun, even when the sights are out.


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## williamalex1 (May 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Comedy Gold.

Butcher...what exactly has he ever done?
		
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 Rare Steaks, well done now .:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2014)

You see Phil that you keep telling us that don't support t'Rangers or Celtic that we need t'Rangers in Scottish Premiership asap or we're done for.  And we keep saying that we hear all you say - and agree that much of it may factually be true - but we do not draw the same conclusion.  Indeed we keep saying that actually, though things are clearly not 100% brilliant with Scottish football, on a number of fronts there are many positives - especially in respect of the fans experiences and opportunities other clubs are getting,


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## Slab (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But only one winner possible of the league ?

No clubs able to get into the group stage of the Europa

League without a sponser and drop in telly money 

Celtic are the highest co efficent in Europe at 62 - below even Fulham then Rangers at 92 - so in danger of losing European slots in further qualifying rounds

Got the country at 23 in Europe below teams like Cyprus and Israel and a points drop from last year - currently at 3.250
		
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I think you might be focusing too much on the Europe factor when considering its impact to how Scottish football is doing

Understandable given how many of the 'top players' in England wouldn't sign if European comps did not exist & it was just league football (but perhaps that says more about the EPL than SPL)

Old firm having good runs in Europe only ever helped the Old firm & widened the gap to the rest, there is squat diddly benefit for Scottish football in that (& no, getting the 3rd placed team one qualifying round further due to a higher coefficient is not a benefit if the 3rd team is artificially so detached from 1st & 2nd that they cant take advantage of a trip into Europe)

Is it purely coincidental that the top English division only started to recover from its near death experience when English clubs were banned from Europe for 5 years and forced to concentrate efforts on league footie?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2014)

Slab said:



			I think you might be focusing too much on the Europe factor when considering its impact to how Scottish football is doing

*Understandable given how many of the 'top players' in England wouldn't sign if European comps did not exist & it was just league football (but perhaps that says more about the EPL than SPL*)
		
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Thats valid around the whole of Europe - playing in European football is the next step up from the domestic leagues - he gives the players a wider stage to perform on as well as bringing in extra funding for the clubs that play in Europe.

Countries clubs doing well in Europe strengthens the domestic leagues because it attracts the better players. Players leave clubs that arent in Europe - clubs struggle to sign players when they are not competing in Europe - its a harsh fact ( one we have witnessed at Liverpool )




			Old firm having good runs in Europe only ever helped the Old firm & widened the gap to the rest, there is squat diddly benefit for Scottish football in that (& no, getting the 3rd placed team one qualifying round further due to a higher coefficient is not a benefit if the 3rd team is artificially so detached from 1st & 2nd that they cant take advantage of a trip into Europe)
		
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what about other teams having good runs in Europe ? Or is it just Rangers and Celtic that qualify each year ?




			Is it purely coincidental that the top English division only started to recover from its near death experience when English clubs were banned from Europe for 5 years and forced to concentrate efforts on league footie?
		
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Started to recover from what ? Being banned from Europe meant clubs like Everton didnt have a run at the European cup and lost out on additional revenue and also lost players to clubs abroad or bigger clubs with more money. Being out of Europe didnt help the English clubs.

Going back in did.

Without the big teams in the league yes it becomes more "competitive" in a way - but that doesnt mean its "better" - the Welsh League is competitve but lacks the quality - Scottish football has the possibility to go that way - which is a shame as used to love watching it in the 80's.

If a European league ever got formed and teams like Liverpool , Man Utd and Arsenal etc left - the EPL would be poorer - other teams could win the title but overall the league wouldnt be better. 

Leagues need big teams - the Scottish Prem needs the Old Firm strong.


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## StuartD (May 27, 2014)

Alan said:



			Where do you start.

Crowds are up with every team apart from Celtic
Every city in Scotland has been free of the minority of these fuds in their cities. 
The Silverware has been shared through four new teams 
The corrupt SFA are clueless on how to justify their Armageddon statement. 
Footballs better
Lots of young talent now being developed and not being media groomed by the Daily Record as the Huns next big signing
Better all round feeling about our game.
Scotland's coefficient higher than in the last 15 years
National team doing better. 
Etc etc.
		
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Your feelings as a supporter about a breath of fresh air in the game as trophies have been spread out canâ€™t be denied. You could even claim that without Celtic it would be even better. But are those in charge of your club saying the same? 

Despite what you claim, last season crowds did NOT go up in 7 out of the 10 clubs who were in SPL with Rangers. 6 clubs crowds actually went down (see link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22541130
It certainly looks crowds have been slightly better this season I admit. 

However we now have a league with no sponsor money coming in, a renegotiated TV deal on less money from the outset, we are also having to hand money back to Sky/BT as viewing figures are not being met and also to cover costs of covering Rangers games at smaller grounds. We are now faced with further renegotiation to allow more championship coverage next season. Hopefully we can get a better deal this time.

Doncaster admitted in an open letter this week that the existing TV deal was dependant on 4 old firm games a season and that the TV companies were entitled to walk , so a renegotiated deal had to be agreed quickly and the old SPL agreed to cover the TV companies extra setup costs.

Our clubs are still dependant on the revenue streams that the TV deals generate. Although I still think it was a bit of a rash/daft comment by Reagan and I never believed it would happen, maybe the possibility of Armageddon was actually closer than we think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2014)

StuartD said:



			Your feelings as a supporter about a breath of fresh air in the game as trophies have been spread out canâ€™t be denied. You could even claim that without Celtic it would be even better. But are those in charge of your club saying the same? 

Despite what you claim, last season crowds did NOT go up in 7 out of the 10 clubs who were in SPL with Rangers. 6 clubs crowds actually went down (see link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22541130
It certainly looks crowds have been slightly better this season I admit. 

However we now have a league with no sponsor money coming in, a renegotiated TV deal on less money from the outset, we are also having to hand money back to Sky/BT as viewing figures are not being met and also to cover costs of covering Rangers games at smaller grounds. We are now faced with further renegotiation to allow more championship coverage next season. Hopefully we can get a better deal this time.

Doncaster admitted in an open letter this week that the existing TV deal was dependant on 4 old firm games a season and that the TV companies were entitled to walk , so a renegotiated deal had to be agreed quickly and the old SPL agreed to cover the TV companies extra setup costs.

Our clubs are still dependant on the revenue streams that the TV deals generate. Although I still think it was a bit of a rash/daft comment by Reagan and I never believed it would happen, maybe the possibility of Armageddon was actually closer than we think.
		
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As a Saints supporter I have to say that it's been a brilliant and very positive experience getting to our first Scottish Cup Final - and winning.  And our experience with the Utd supporters in the final was also great - very friendly atmosphere outside and on the way to the ground.  Inside - both sets of fans watching the football and supporting their team - and not watching and hurling abuse at the other set of fans.  We will make about Â£1m from the Cup (prize money plus TV) and we hope to pick up a good bunch of new season ticket holders off the back of winning. And in August we go galivanting around Europe for hopefully a couple or three games - more if we get get through to group stage (unlikely but you never know).  But Europe will never make us rich - but we are solvent - and today we are a happy club with a very happy support.  And what's not to like about that.


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## c1973 (May 27, 2014)

I may be wrong in this first bit as I haven't actually saw any figures, but the story I heard was that the SPL were trading insolvent despite withholding Rangers 'winnings' and share of the TV money, hence that being part of the 5 way agreement. 

I believe this had a lot to do with the formation of the new SPFL in addition to the SFL threatening to get their own TV deal with Rangers being their main selling point (which in all fairness is what should have happen in the first place). 

Rangers may be the target for the whipping boys at the moment, but the fact is all the SPL clubs got a share of our winnings and only have a TV deal (and resultant cash) due to Rangers having to sign over media rights as part of the aforementioned 5 way agreement.

We may be despised, but y'all still fight for the crumbs from our table (and Celtics, it has to be said). 


If we do fold (as has been constantly predicted for the past 18 months) the TV deals and sponsorships (if actually obtained) will be a pittance. Ask your chairmen how they run a club with pocket money coming through the turnstiles?   Hate us all you want,as our song says '....*No one likes us, we don't care*' but don't be fooled into thinking Scottish football would be some sort of Utopia without us!


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## Slab (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thats valid around the whole of Europe - playing in European football is the next step up from the domestic leagues - he gives the players a wider stage to perform on as well as bringing in extra funding for the clubs that play in Europe.

Countries clubs doing well in Europe strengthens the domestic leagues because it attracts the better players. Players leave clubs that arent in Europe - clubs struggle to sign players when they are not competing in Europe - its a harsh fact ( one we have witnessed at Liverpool )



what about other teams having good runs in Europe ? Or is it just Rangers and Celtic that qualify each year ?



Started to recover from what ? Being banned from Europe meant clubs like Everton didnt have a run at the European cup and lost out on additional revenue and also lost players to clubs abroad or bigger clubs with more money. Being out of Europe didnt help the English clubs.

Going back in did.

Without the big teams in the league yes it becomes more "competitive" in a way - but that doesnt mean its "better" - the Welsh League is competitve but lacks the quality - Scottish football has the possibility to go that way - which is a shame as used to love watching it in the 80's.

If a European league ever got formed and teams like Liverpool , Man Utd and Arsenal etc left - the EPL would be poorer - other teams could win the title but overall the league wouldnt be better. 

Leagues need big teams - the Scottish Prem needs the Old Firm strong.
		
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I really think you're looking at this from a 'big team' perspective (maybe because of who you support) rather than a 'football' perspective

The Old firm weren't strong, they were utterly dominant! And that's not good for football. When is a monopoly ever good for anything? (& no they are not a duopoly, they are two sides of one coin) 

It got to a point where they were attempting to vote themselves the absolute dominance of TV revenue and control of league matters

So a TV or league sponsorship deal that sees the overwhelming majority of revenue going to the dominant team is not good. its actually more competitive (& better for football) to have the Old firm getting an equal share of nothing than the lions share of everything

As SILH indicates, what exactly is the downside to football of the season his club have just had?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2014)

Slab said:



			I really think you're looking at this from a 'big team' perspective (maybe because of who you support) rather than a 'football' perspective

The Old firm weren't strong, they were utterly dominant! And that's not good for football. When is a monopoly ever good for anything? (& no they are not a duopoly, they are two sides of one coin) 

It got to a point where they were attempting to vote themselves the absolute dominance of TV revenue and control of league matters

So a TV or league sponsorship deal that sees the overwhelming majority of revenue going to the dominant team is not good. its actually more competitive (& better for football) to have the Old firm getting an equal share of nothing than the lions share of everything

As SILH indicates, what exactly is the downside to football of the season his club have just had?
		
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Where as now you have a league that will only be won by one club 

You have no sponser for the league and TV money decreasing rapidly 

All things that all the clubs need to survive in the league or they drop all their costs ( wage bills reduced ) which drops the standards of players etc and the standard of the league drops.

Yes SILH team has just won a cup - that's great for his team , no denying that. Just as a non league team wining the FA trophy is great for them. Because that's the level it will head to 

So of the fans are happy having a league on par with the Welsh league etc then continue to wish the Old Firm are not around. Scottish footballs future as a strong standard league depends on strong quality players - without the big clubs you won't have that.


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## StuartD (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where as now you have a league that will only be won by one club 

You have no sponser for the league and TV money decreasing rapidly 

All things that all the clubs need to survive in the league or they drop all their costs ( wage bills reduced ) which drops the standards of players etc and the standard of the league drops.

Yes SILH team has just won a cup - that's great for his team , no denying that. Just as a non league team wining the FA trophy is great for them. Because that's the level it will head to 

So of the fans are happy having a league on par with the Welsh league etc then continue to wish the Old Firm are not around. Scottish footballs future as a strong standard league depends on strong quality players - without the big clubs you won't have that.
		
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I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean  a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years


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## FairwayDodger (May 27, 2014)

StuartD said:



			I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean  a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years
		
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There's definitely an argument for that, Stuart, and clearly many already see a benefit. For me, however, losing one of the OF and not the other has only compounded the problem. We already know who's going to win the league next year and that's not good for anyone, not even Celtic (although they will console themselves with another title!). Some degree of competition is contrived with the "race for second".

Championship is looking exciting - four or five teams with a realistic chance of winning or at least getting into second place for the play off. Doesn't mean the football on show will be high quality though!


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## Slab (May 27, 2014)

StuartD said:



			I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean  a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years
		
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Here here

1st choice would be to have them included because there are benefits but only as part of the league and not the purpose of it!

As for suggesting a demise to Welsh premier etc and to borrow a quote _"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept"_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			There's definitely an argument for that, Stuart, and clearly many already see a benefit. For me, however, losing one of the OF and not the other has only compounded the problem. We already know who's going to win the league next year and that's not good for anyone, not even Celtic (although they will console themselves with another title!). Some degree of competition is contrived with the "race for second".

Championship is looking exciting - four or five teams with a realistic chance of winning or at least getting into second place for the play off. Doesn't mean the football on show will be high quality though! 

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But we all know that with both of the OF in the scottish premiership there wasn't any competition (and rarely has been) between the other clubs for 2nd place.  Rangers probably will get in premiership next season or season after but it may be a few years before they are back competing with Celtic for 1st and 2nd.  Over these few years more money may come into the game (from TV, sponsors etc) that might help the other teams compete with Rangers for 2nd place. And that will be a good thing.  But for us 'diddy' clubs - having Rangers back in the premiership battling with Celtic for 1st and 2nd is not top of our wish-list.  I'm quite happy for the Hibees and Jam Tarts to get back up next season - leave Rangers where they are for season or two.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2014)

Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.
		
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hear! hear! :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (May 27, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But we all know that with both of the OF in the scottish premiership there wasn't any competition (and rarely has been) between the other clubs for 2nd place.  Rangers probably will get in premiership next season or season after but it may be a few years before they are back competing with Celtic for 1st and 2nd.  Over these few years more money may come into the game (from TV, sponsors etc) that might help the other teams compete with Rangers for 2nd place. And that will be a good thing.  But for us 'diddy' clubs - having Rangers back in the premiership battling with Celtic for 1st and 2nd is not top of our wish-list.  I'm quite happy for the Hibees and Jam Tarts to get back up next season - leave Rangers where they are for season or two.
		
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Once again, I don't follow your logic. If your so-called "diddy" clubs (your term not mine) are happy battling for second what was the difference in battling for third while there was at least a viable competition for the title?

The premiership will be a non-event next year, only the drama of Hibs relegation provided any interest this year. Of course, that's not the fault of any of the teams who'll be in their doing their best, it is what it is.

In contrast, it'll be interesting to see who comes up next year, by no means a formality that Rangers will manage it or even that it'll be two of the "big three". And, yes, even if Rangers come up they'll be years away from mounting a serious challenge.


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## c1973 (May 27, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.
		
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Phil talks more sense on this thread than the majority to be perfectly honest! Imo of course.


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## FairwayDodger (May 27, 2014)

To be honest, with things as they are, I'm not even sure Rangers will be in the championship next season. Which worries me far more than whether they get promoted or not!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.
		
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Reading a lot of posts from you it certainly appears I have a stronger grasp on reality that yourself 

Couple of inaccuracies in your assumptions 

Nowhere have I said anything about Rangers "sauntering" into the SPL

Also when have I ever suggesting anything about the SPL needing to be like the EPL ?! The EPL is irrelevant to the discussion

And when did I ever suggest anything about pricing fans out of going to games !

You can stick your head in the sand but the reality is if you want the Scottish prem to be a strong league with the chance of quality players which could breed talented young Scottish players then the league needs big teams in it . All the clubs need the league to be sponsered and need the telly money. 

Young talent won't want to play in a league without big teams to test himself 

You may slag of the EPL and it has it's negatives but the quailty is high and some of the best players in the world play in it 

Scottish Prem right now is on a par with league 1 

I remember in the 80's watching teams like Aberdeen win European trophies - that's not going to happen again 

Fans may not like the OF clubs but the clubs need them if they want the league to improve


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## c1973 (May 27, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			To be honest, with things as they are, I'm not even sure Rangers will be in the championship next season. Which worries me far more than whether they get promoted or not!
		
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I think they will. The worry is this power struggle that is going on with the board and King etc. King has money to put in but I fear he ( with fans groups help unbelievably) is trying to get in on the cheap which means he could be waiting/hoping for another administration. The cash is there but will he get in?


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## 19thagain (May 27, 2014)

To reply to the OP - 10/1 in my opinion!

Butcher as with other managers and players, did well at my club, ICT. BUT the curse of leaving caught him out.

I would argue that he did not take ICT back up once relegated - Dundee FC offered a very big helping hand to him. Yes, we did our bit by winning but Dundee, well in front at halfway collapsed at the end of the season.

Butcher then used our winning boost to gain a foothold in the top flight and here we have stayed. Did we want Butcher to leave? We were sitting second in the league and playing well when HIBS came to call, so of course not.

He left us in a way that stole all the good feeling he had previously enjoyed. He had every right to go but to enjoy a well oiled knees up with his new (to be) employers including sitting with their directors during the HIBS v  ICT match WHILST STATING HE WAS NOT LEAVING AND BEING PAID TO URGE ON MY TEAM TO VICTORY WHILE STILL BEING PAID BT ICT!

He deserves all he gets, if HIBS employed a person that they saw was prepared to behave in this manner, they too deserve all they have coming to them.

HIBS .... a potentially super team with one of the best supports in Scotland - going out to cheer on good players who were totally mismanaged. A shame for the players and fans but reflective of the management and Board.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reading a lot of posts from you it certainly appears I have a stronger grasp on reality that yourself 

Couple of inaccuracies in your assumptions 

Nowhere have I said anything about Rangers "sauntering" into the SPL

Also when have I ever suggesting anything about the SPL needing to be like the EPL ?! The EPL is irrelevant to the discussion

And when did I ever suggest anything about pricing fans out of going to games !

You can stick your head in the sand but the reality is if you want the Scottish prem to be a strong league with the chance of quality players which could breed talented young Scottish players then the league needs big teams in it . All the clubs need the league to be sponsered and need the telly money. 

Young talent won't want to play in a league without big teams to test himself 

You may slag of the EPL and it has it's negatives but the quailty is high and some of the best players in the world play in it 

Scottish Prem right now is on a par with league 1 

I remember in the 80's watching teams like Aberdeen win European trophies - that's not going to happen again 

Fans may not like the OF clubs but the clubs need them if they want the league to improve
		
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Well you saw Aberdeen win one and Dundee Utd come close.  We want the best standard of football we can afford; decent atmosphere at games; a cup run or two; and with luck some games in Europe every so often.  Now that's not very ambitious - but with the OF that's how it will be and always has been.  We have a few years while Rangers get themselves sorted out during which the last becomes achievable. 

And watching Rotherham vs Leyton Orient this weekend I am pretty sure that St Johnstone could compete with and beat both.  Rotherham population 250,000 - Perth population 44,000.


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## Dodger (May 27, 2014)

I can't believe that folk think that Sevco won't win the League next season,I really can't.

They will saunter to the title.


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## Slab (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
You can stick your head in the sand but the reality is if you want the Scottish prem to be a strong league with the chance of quality players which could breed talented young Scottish players then the league needs big teams in it . All the clubs need the league to be sponsered and need the telly money. 

Young talent won't want to play in a league without big teams to test himself 

You may slag of the EPL and it has it's negatives but the quailty is high and some of the best players in the world play in it 

Scottish Prem right now is on a par with league 1 

I remember in the 80's watching teams like Aberdeen win European trophies - that's not going to happen again 
*
Fans may not like the OF clubs but the clubs need them if they want the league to improve*

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And just exactly how did the league improve over the last 30 years when those 'big teams' were both there?

The old firm dominated, a few clubs tried to overspend their way to some form of success, the odd hiccup to upset the form books, no National team achievements and as you point out here we are now where European runs/sponsorship/tv money all virtually non existent!

So we know what doesn't work & only a fool would suggest we look for exactly the same thing again expecting a different result!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2014)

Slab said:



			And just exactly how did the league improve over the last 30 years when those 'big teams' were both there?

The old firm dominated, a few clubs tried to overspend their way to some form of success, the odd hiccup to upset the form books, no National team achievements and as you point out here we are now where European runs/sponsorship/tv money all virtually non existent!

So we know what doesn't work & only a fool would suggest we look for exactly the same thing again expecting a different result!
		
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So are you suggesting that the reason the league is how it is now is because of the OF clubs ? Are you suggesting it didn't work because other teams didn't win 

All leagues have top clubs dominating them - that's a fact of life in football I'm afraid , but those top teams generate the interest and the money

Haven't both Celtic and Rangers recently both got to European finals ( last ten years ) 

The SPL in the past decade had some quality players playing in it and the clubs in Europe provided some good results - 

It may not be perfect and it may not suit the smaller clubs but it's needed to have big clubs - without them the league is closer to Sunday League than a top league in Europe. 

It appears to me that basically people would like them gone so that other teams can win - that's great for those other teams. Not so great for the standard


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## Slab (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So are you suggesting that the reason the league is how it is now is because of the OF clubs ? Are you suggesting it didn't work because other teams didn't win 

All leagues have top clubs dominating them - that's a fact of life in football I'm afraid , but those top teams generate the interest and the money

Haven't both Celtic and Rangers recently both got to European finals ( last ten years ) 

The SPL in the past decade had some quality players playing in it and the clubs in Europe provided some good results - 

It may not be perfect and it may not suit the smaller clubs but it's needed to have big clubs - without them the league is closer to Sunday League than a top league in Europe. 

It appears to me that basically people would like them gone so that other teams can win - that's great for those other teams. Not so great for the standard
		
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I was responding to your point that _"Fans may not like the OF clubs but the clubs need them if they want the league to improve"_ and i cant see that *league improvement* for anyone other than the sole beneficiary that is the Old firm 

I've already said I'd prefer them there but as part of the league and not the purpose of the league (and I've no idea how to mange that change)

Who knows what lies ahead but 99 titles from 118 years is hardly the league improvement you suggest and we're never likely to see TV money make any meaningful difference when its sitting at 16m a year! How much extra do you think those four old firm games will add to the pot? 

The success or even the survival of Scottish football does not lie in the fate of the Old firm


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2014)

Slab said:



			I was responding to your point that _"Fans may not like the OF clubs but the clubs need them if they want the league to improve"_ and i cant see that *league improvement* for anyone other than the sole beneficiary that is the Old firm 

I've already said I'd prefer them there but as part of the league and not the purpose of the league (and I've no idea how to mange that change)

Who knows what lies ahead but 99 titles from 118 years is hardly the league improvement you suggest and we're never likely to see TV money make any meaningful difference when its sitting at 16m a year! How much extra do you think those four old firm games will add to the pot? 

The success or even the survival of Scottish football does not lie in the fate of the Old firm
		
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Oh Scottish football will survive just as all football survives - what standard it will be is the question 


But you can show me a league that doesn't have a couple of clubs dominating the titles ? 

It appears that people want an unrealistic fantasy league where any team can win it - that doesn't happen and has never happened in any league in European football. So they would prefer the OF out so they can have a chance of winning 

That would be like asking Spain to get rid of Madrid and Barcelona or Holland - Ajax and PSV plus many more countries have the same situation.


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## Dodger (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh Scottish football will survive just as all football survives - what standard it will be is the question 


But you can show me a league that doesn't have a couple of clubs dominating the titles ? 

It appears that people want an unrealistic fantasy league where any team can win it - that doesn't happen and has never happened in any league in European football. So they would prefer the OF out so they can have a chance of winning 

That would be like asking Spain to get rid of Madrid and Barcelona or Holland - Ajax and PSV plus many more countries have the same situation.
		
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It goes deeper than that but we'll not even go there.

And by the way I fully understand it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It appears to me that basically people would like them gone so that other teams can win - that's great for those other teams. Not so great for the standard
		
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Just on this Phil.  The rest of Scottish football has never really wanted the OF gone (as much as we despised their 'traditions' and how these 'traditions' cast Scottish football in a specific light).   Rather it is the OF who have for years now wanted to leave Scottish football - abandoning us to our fate as it were.   And so we said - OK - bu**er off then and see how you get on - and we'll sort ourselves out.  

So with that in mind have a think about how we - the rest - feel about the OF and then you might understand better why we think as we do about your exhortations on how important the OF are to Scottish football.


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## c1973 (May 27, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I can't believe that folk think that Sevco won't win the League next season,I really can't.

They will saunter to the title.
		
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Don't know about them but Rangers have a chance.  

I've always felt this league would be a tricky one, more so with Jambos and Hivs in the mix now. I thought Falkirk or Dundee would be as tough as it could have got a couple of years back.


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## c1973 (May 27, 2014)

Utopian scenario: Rangers and Celtic out of Scottish football.

Result; 

At best, less TV & sponsorship deals, at worst none.
Very doubtful fans will flock back, they've been deserting the game for years now.
Cash strapped clubs struggle to invest in youth development (lots of SPFL teams budgets cut here already).
Less talent coming through, poorer quality football and poorer national side.
The next best teams start dominating, let's say Motherwell and ICT for arguments sake.
How long before fans of the diddy teams (those out with Well and ICT) become disillusioned?



Now, there is just as much chance of that scenario happening as the alternative where every team gets a wee shot at winning. Rangers and (to a lesser extent) Celtic dominated for over 100 years for one reason and one reason alone. They were consistently better than every other competitor! Even when the diddy teams were well supported btw. 

Let's face it, if you're really honest the fans of the diddy teams are jealous of the success these two behemoths have enjoyed over the years. They can't really compete with them, so they all want shot of them.

I agree, a 2 horse race ain't much fun but it's better than a 1 horse race and after all the rest could still compete for the remaining Euro spot.























N.B. 

We're coming tae get yees, we're coming tae get yees...........:whoo:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just on this Phil.  The rest of Scottish football has never really wanted the OF gone (as much as we despised their 'traditions' and how these 'traditions' cast Scottish football in a specific light).   Rather it is the OF who have for years now wanted to leave Scottish football - abandoning us to our fate as it were.   And so we said - OK - bu**er off then and see how you get on - and we'll sort ourselves out.  

So with that in mind have a think about how we - the rest - feel about the OF and then you might understand better why we think as we do about your exhortations on how important the OF are to Scottish football.
		
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Well said sir.


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## Slab (May 28, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just on this Phil.  The rest of Scottish football has never really wanted the OF gone (as much as we despised their 'traditions' and how these 'traditions' cast Scottish football in a specific light).   Rather it is the OF who have for years now wanted to leave Scottish football - abandoning us to our fate as it were.   And so we said - OK - bu**er off then and see how you get on - and we'll sort ourselves out.  

So with that in mind have a think about how we - the rest - feel about the OF and then you might understand better why we think as we do about your exhortations on how important the OF are to Scottish football.
		
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Very good point

Whether an Atlantic League, European Super League or English League, the Old firm have been threatening to leave Scottish football for years now (& this is their own chief execs and managers saying this) Walter Smith even said the SPL could die if they stay!

Why on earth would we make the old firm custodians of Scottish football if they are prepared to scarper at the first opportunity?
Why build a business model and tv sponsorship deals around teams who donâ€™t want to be there (because as shown there will be clauses that the TV company can pull the lot if the Old firm aren't part of the package) 

Where does that leave all the other clubs whoâ€™ve been budgeting and spending on players, stadia etc based on one financial model only to have it pulled from them    

Phil of course every league has its dominant teams but whether they harbor it internally, none of these have been as public in attempting to engineer a move away from the national league structure (to the point where the SPL had to tell the Old firm to zip it due to harming the commercial value of the SPL)

As I said having 'big teams' is fine, even dominating teams but jeez they have to want to be there!


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## Maninblack4612 (May 28, 2014)

I've just come back to 9 handicap after 32 years at 11 or 12. I'm more worried about me going straight back up!


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