# Is this racism?



## Pin-seeker (Oct 30, 2018)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mo-salah-halloween-costume-little-13498689


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## Kellfire (Oct 30, 2018)

Nope not at all. Itâ€™s someone idolising someone.


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## Lazkir (Oct 30, 2018)

Some people will see whatever they want to see or whatever suits their agenda.

All I see is a child dressing up as her hero. Anything else is BS.


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2018)

IMO no - but people are spinning it any way that suits them.  What about this one?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...p-fiction-costume-for-halloween-a3974261.html


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

It's a minefield and so best avoided. Put on the wig, put on the shirt, draw on the beard. Leave it there. The rest is the mum trying to get in the papers.


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2018)

Of course it isn't, unless you can believe a 9-year-old girl wanted to dress that way in order to mock black people?




adam6177 said:



			IMO no - but people are spinning it any way that suits them.  What about this one?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...p-fiction-costume-for-halloween-a3974261.html

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I didn't agree that this was racism either. I get that people 'blacked up' a hundred years ago to mock black people with unfair stereotypes, but this man is not doing that. He's dressing up as a film character, presumably a character he admired, so if anything it's a tribute to a famous black actor who portrayed the character. Why tar this chap with the same brush as people who acted out some racist stereotypes before he was even born?


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a minefield and so best avoided. Put on the wig, put on the shirt, draw on the beard. Leave it there. The rest is the mum trying to get in the papers.
		
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Well then it wouldn't look very much like Salah would it? I hate when people blow things like this out of proportion because it obscures actual racism that occurs all the time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2018)

Kids have done it for years, they want to â€œbeâ€ their hero.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 30, 2018)

Fake tan on a 9yr old tho ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚


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## User 99 (Oct 30, 2018)

Outrageous racism  incredibly  offensive


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Well then it wouldn't look very much like Salah would it? I hate when people blow things like this out of proportion because it obscures actual racism that occurs all the time.
		
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It would look enough like Salah that people would know still. The wig, the hair, the shirt, it is enough. We all know that doing this causes offence to many people so why do it. Just don't, not hard.


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## IanM (Oct 30, 2018)

The kid meant no offence so, no.....also refered this to my Nigerian colleague... he laughed out loud and asked if Scots are offended by "Jimmy Wigs!" 

But, generally............. "why on earth would you do this?"


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2018)

I wonder how many would be offended if this were round the other way.


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I wonder how many would be offended if this were round the other way.
		
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You mean if Salah dressed as a nine-year-old girl?


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## Kellfire (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It would look enough like Salah that people would know still. The wig, the hair, the shirt, it is enough. We all know that doing this causes offence to many people so why do it. Just don't, not hard.
		
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Thatâ€™s a terrible attitude to take. We should work on eradicating the actual wrongs in the world - not tiptoeing around situations and pretending there is a problem where none exists.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I wonder how many would be offended if this were round the other way.
		
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Don't know that I have ever seen it the other way around. It would not bother me if it happened as you describe but the issue is that many ARE offended by so called blacking up so just avoid it.


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## IanM (Oct 30, 2018)

eg a kid "white-ing up" to look like Harry Kane???   Wouldnt make the news....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2018)

Itâ€™s not racism IMO but then you could see why someone could be offended by it - so for that I think itâ€™s a poor choice and a lack of common sense


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Thatâ€™s a terrible attitude to take. We should work on eradicating the actual wrongs in the world - not tiptoeing around situations and pretending there is a problem where none exists.
		
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So you prefer to prod and poke at a sore that you know will cause offence to people. Why? There is enough genuine aggro in the world without creating and adding to it.


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## Kellfire (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So you prefer to prod and poke at a sore that you know will cause offence to people. Why? There is enough genuine aggro in the world without creating and adding to it.
		
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Again, thatâ€™s just avoiding dealing with the issue. Burying your head in the sand. Where do you draw the line?

Pick any contentious issue and you could say someone is offended by it so we shouldnâ€™t do it. I hold incredibly strong views about religious events but Iâ€™m not saying ban easter and Christmas!


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## Don Barzini (Oct 30, 2018)

I personally don't see a problem with it but it's pretty well known these days that as a white person, you can't "black up" as part of fancy dress without it offending/annoying some people.

A year or so ago I went to a house party, the theme being 80s fancy dress. I went as BA Baracus and blacked my face up. I knew all the people there and knew it wouldn't cause offence to anyone. My costume was well received and I was commended for the effort I went to. But I certainly wouldn't wear that costume out in public for fear of finding myself all over social media and the tabloid press!


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2018)

IanM said:



			eg a kid "white-ing up" to look like Harry Kane???   Wouldnt make the news....
		
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There have been examples on TV and film. The most popular that people usually use in the defence is the movie White Chicks - a comedy film where two black men dress up as white women to go undercover (hence 'whiteing up' if you like). I also recall in a BBC3 comedy I used to watch a few years back called How Not To Live Your Life, there was an episode where the white lead character and his black friend were going to a fancy dress party as Riggs and Murtaugh from Lethal Weapon - the joke/twist though, not revealed until they arrived at said party, was that the white character dressed as Murtaugh and the black character was dressed as Riggs (both blacked/whited up accordingly). I thought that was funny, and I don't recall anyone saying it was racist. Although the show probably didn't have huge viewing figures.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Again, thatâ€™s just avoiding dealing with the issue. Burying your head in the sand. Where do you draw the line?

Pick any contentious issue and you could say someone is offended by it so we shouldnâ€™t do it. I hold incredibly strong views about religious events but Iâ€™m not saying ban easter and Christmas!
		
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What is the issue that is being avoided? Bad taste, poor judgement?

The line constantly moves as views in society change. Dig out some old 70's sitcoms and many would now be considered racist and most definitely sexist. By the standards of that era they were fine, by the standards of 2018 they are not. We all know that happens. With this type of thing there reaches a tipping point where society judges something is not acceptable and agree with it or not that is how it goes. I don't feel anyone's rights are particularly infringed by removing 'blacking up' from society, let it go.


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2018)

What I dislike about this is the lack of real dialogue.... ie we see these two people with their faces painted and automatically the thought process is that they're racist.

Whereas if you listen to the conversation on the tube with the guy he says "why not, it's a person I like".....it's not as though he's depicting a slave or another racially motivated incident from history.


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## USER1999 (Oct 30, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			I personally don't see a problem with it but it's pretty well known these days that as a white person, you can't "black up" as part of fancy dress without it offending/annoying some people.

A year or so ago I went to a house party, the theme being 80s fancy dress. I went as BA Baracus and blacked my face up. I knew all the people there and knew it wouldn't cause offence to anyone. My costume was well received and I was commended for the effort I went to. But I certainly wouldn't wear that costume out in public for fear of finding myself all over social media and the tabloid press!
		
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A mate of mine blued up and went as a smirf. Racist?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			A mate of mine blued up and went as a smirf. Racist?
		
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Did he upset any Smurfs by blueing up?

Flippant comment but smurfs are fictional so not really comparable (apologies for any spoiler)


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did he upset any Smurfs by blueing up?

Flippant comment but smurfs are fictional so not really comparable (apologies for any spoiler)
		
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So would "blacking up" as a black cartoon character be racist?


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2018)

My biggest concern in all this is...


What the hell has dressing up like Mo Salah got to do with Halloween...


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 30, 2018)

Imurg said:



			My biggest concern in all this is...


What the hell has dressing up like Mo Salah got to do with Halloween...

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Suarez would have been more appropriate.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So would "blacking up" as a black cartoon character be racist?
		
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I think you are getting into questionable territory again so just don't do it. A blue cartoon character is clearly fictional. A black cartoon character, whilst still fictitious could have the basis of the character in reality.

We can go around the houses on this but at the end of the day it offends enough people, you don't need to do it so don't.


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## user2010 (Oct 30, 2018)

Nope, not in the slightest.
But the professionally offended will say it is.


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## User 99 (Oct 30, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Nope, not in the slightest.
But the professionally offended will say it is.

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I'm offended by your comment


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Nope, not in the slightest.
But the professionally offended will say it is.

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I think the modern day name is "snowflakes".... They're the ones currently hell bent on changing our society for the worse by being absolutely pathetic.


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## User 99 (Oct 30, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I think the modern day name is "snowflakes".... They're the ones currently hell bent on changing our society for the worse by being absolutely pathetic.
		
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You'll find plenty on here if you


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2018)

The assumption is being made by one or two on here that some people will be offended by this. 

But does anybody know that as a fact or is it similar to those who assume that Muslims will be offended by the celebration of Christmas yet can never actually find one to support their claim


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2018)

No, it isn't racist because the act of dressing up as a black person has to have context, and this appears to simply be a little girl wanting to look like her idol.


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## Wolf (Oct 30, 2018)

Nope simply not seeing any racist meaning to this, kid dresses up as idol, kid gets called racist by all the snowflakes in modern society. 

Perhaps they should look at real race issue instead of trawling social media to dig out a child


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## williamalex1 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ffs far too many people just jump on the racist easily offended band, [ RandG ] wagon. Black is black white is white. Lighten up FFS.


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## bluewolf (Oct 30, 2018)

Interestingly enough, no one on this thread has said they're offended by it. Yet the usual insults about "snowflakes" and the "professionally offended" have come thick and fast. It's almost as if people are offended by something that hasn't even happened!!!! 

I think my irony meter just exploded ðŸ˜‚


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## Parmo (Oct 30, 2018)

Thats it, my mind is set, I am going to work for our Halloween dressed as Tiger.


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## User 99 (Oct 30, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Interestingly enough, no one on this thread has said they're offended by it.
		
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You must have me on ignore


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## drdel (Oct 30, 2018)

Parmo said:



			Thats it, my mind is set, I am going to work for our Halloween dressed as Tiger.

View attachment 25817

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Animalist - now you've upset all the big cats on Facebook & Twitter.

There's a serious potential for the all-to frequent way the 'racist' label is used slowly means that society will become desensitised by the 'calling wolf' and then real issues will go relatively unnoticed


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## williamalex1 (Oct 30, 2018)

drdel said:



			Animalist - now you've upset all the big cats on Facebook & Twitter.

There's a serious potential for the all-to frequent way the 'racist' label is used slowly means that society will become desensitised by the 'calling wolf' and then real issues will go relatively unnoticed
		
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No more Blue wolf ??


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2018)

williamalex1 said:



			No more Blue wolf ?? 

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Hopefully ðŸ¤£


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## Dando (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are getting into questionable territory again so just don't do it. A blue cartoon character is clearly fictional. A black cartoon character, whilst still fictitious could have the basis of the character in reality.

We can go around the houses on this but at the end of the day it offends enough people, you don't need to do it so don't.
		
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The Indian shop keeper in the simpsons has been made redundant as people found it offensive and it was stereotyping him


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## bluewolf (Oct 30, 2018)

williamalex1 said:



			No more Blue wolf ?? 

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You should be so lucky ðŸ˜‰


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## User 99 (Oct 30, 2018)

Dando said:



			The Indian shop keeper in the simpsons has been made redundant as people found it offensive and it was stereotyping him
		
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Yet Willie the scotsman remains


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## williamalex1 (Oct 30, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You should be so lucky ðŸ˜‰
		
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All wolves are the same to me , Blue


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2018)

There will be those that seek to be morally offended at the slightest thing. It makes me laugh/sigh and frustrates in equal measures. I'm sure it wasn't like this even a decade ago or is it just my imagination. When did society become so weird and easily put out


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 30, 2018)

RandG said:



			Yet Willie the scotsman remains 

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Yep, Willie the Scotsman is white and therefore the professionally offended don't get involved.


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## bluewolf (Oct 30, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			There will be those that seek to be morally offended at the slightest thing. It makes me laugh/sigh and frustrates in equal measures. I'm sure it wasn't like this even a decade ago or is it just my imagination. When did society become so weird and easily put out
		
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You'll probably find that, much like almost everything else, there is a balance in this. As the easily offensive rise, so do the easily offended. Life likes balance.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You'll probably find that, much like almost everything else, there is a balance in this. As the easily offensive rise, so do the easily offended. Life likes balance.
		
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I take your point. My mum and dad use to watch The Black & White Minstrels religiously each Saturday night and at the time it was nothing more than a highly rated entertainment show. Fast forward a few years and it all kicks off about how racialist it was. Gollywogs on jam jars and a thousand other examples where those looking to find an angle and be offended will. Has life really balanced it out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

Dando said:



			The Indian shop keeper in the simpsons has been made redundant as people found it offensive and it was stereotyping him
		
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I've been following this, it's an interesting one. Most of the characters in The Simpson's are exaggerated stereotypes so what makes Apu problematic but the doughnut eating policeman or wild Scotsman not? 

I believe the future of Apu is still being discussed. The Simpson's has been pretty subversive over the years, it will be interesting to see how they go with this issue.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, Willie the Scotsman is white and therefore the professionally offended don't get involved.
		
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I am slightly of colour ATM  a whiter shade of pale after getting my flu jab, but luckily I'm thick skinned and not easily offended.
 Especially by people with made up names on a online forum .


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 30, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've been following this, it's an interesting one. Most of the characters in The Simpson's are exaggerated stereotypes *so what makes Apu problematic but the doughnut eating policeman or wild Scotsman not?*

I believe the future of Apu is still being discussed. The Simpson's has been pretty subversive over the years, it will be interesting to see how they go with this issue.
		
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The doughnut eating policeman and the wild Scotsman are white. Apu isn't.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			The doughnut eating policeman and the wild Scotsman are white. Apu isn't.
		
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I understand but it should be more than that shouldn't it. It was an open question really.


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## bluewolf (Oct 30, 2018)

I think it would also be useful to differentiate between being offended and understanding that something could be offensive. As anyone on here who knows me will testify, I am almost impossible to offend. I have thicker skin than Andre the Giants foreskin. However, I can appreciate that certain things could be offensive. I can also appreciate that sometimes people can be over cautious about these things.

Still, live and let live eh. If it's easy to avoid offending someone, then why would I go out of my way to do it, just to make a fairly unnecessary point. Life's too short to be an arse. ðŸ‘


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've been following this, it's an interesting one. Most of the characters in The Simpson's are exaggerated stereotypes so what makes Apu problematic but the doughnut eating policeman or wild Scotsman not?

I believe the future of Apu is still being discussed. The Simpson's has been pretty subversive over the years, it will be interesting to see how they go with this issue.
		
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I recently saw an article where this was being discussed and how ALL of the characters in the simpsons are an exaggeration of stereotypes, again its people being choosey about what offends them.

Lets be honest, stereotypes are there for a reason.


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I have thicker skin than Andre the Giants foreskin.
		
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He was circumsized I'll have you know, so thats a blatant lie.  Rumours are it was used by the army for parachute training. *



*some of/all of the above may be untrue.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I think it would also be useful to differentiate between being offended and understanding that something could be offensive. As anyone on here who knows me will testify, I am almost impossible to offend. I have thicker skin than Andre the Giants foreskin. However, I can appreciate that certain things could be offensive. I can also appreciate that sometimes people can be over cautious about these things.

Still, live and let live eh. If it's easy to avoid offending someone, then why would I go out of my way to do it, just to make a fairly unnecessary point. Life's too short to be an arse. ðŸ‘
		
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But how do you know that it may be deemed offensive by some if you are not, yourself, offended. 

Is there not a risk of being patronising towards those that we think may be offended?


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			But how do you know that it may be deemed offensive by some if you are not, yourself, offended.

Is there not a risk of being patronising towards those that we think may be offended?
		
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Quite often we don't know if something is offensive. However, if someone takes the time to explain why they find it offensive, and I can understand the reasoning then I'll take it on board. It still won't offend me, but I can appreciate that someone else would be.


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## Neilds (Oct 31, 2018)

On the same (similar) subject, aren't all drag acts guilty of sexism?  After all, they are still putting on make up to look like someone else.

This sort of thing is just PC gone mad and people are mixing it up with real racism and almost belittling the problem of real acts of racism.  Cultural appropriation, whatever that is , is anothe rthing that is missing the point completely.
In My Opinion.


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

I remember watching a comedian (I forget his name) who did a speech on how it's ok to be offended....just dont expect others to change to suit your ideals.  I agree with that sentiment whole heatedly.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Quite often we don't know if something is offensive. However, if someone takes the time to explain why they find it offensive, and I can understand the reasoning then I'll take it on board. It still won't offend me, but I can appreciate that someone else would be.
		
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I wholeheartedly agree with that. 

However,  in this case (and some others) I have yet to hear any relevant party say they find this offensive. 

Hence my concern over judgements being made "on behalf" of others.


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

rather than start another new thread on a similar subject..... what about this:

https://sports.yahoo.com/ben-stille...-thunder-halloween-costume-row-114644207.html


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## Khamelion (Oct 31, 2018)

Way way to many snowflakes in the world these days, people getting offender by trivial things for no other reason than it's the 'in thing' to do. Political correctness has a lot to answer for.

Racism, sexism, misogynism, pick an ism and there will be those that take it to the extreme to promote their own agenda. Common sense has gone out the window.

So you can't tell a blue joke for fear someone might over hear and by offended and you end up in the crap. You can't speak your mind for fear of upsetting someone, if you have the facts and your words are irrefutably accurate and someone hears and doesn't like what you say, then tough, why should you have to apologize.

So while writing this Adam6177 post got in before me so to add, which goes back to the original post, you can't get dressed up to impersonate an idol or well known person for fear that an organisation may be offended and if you are famous you then have to apologize or face being publicly ostracised.

Going one step further, what about all the people who make a living out of impersonating people for a living, like Rory Bremner, Alistair McGowan and Jon Culshaw, why is it acceptable for them to make a living out of what they do?


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## User 99 (Oct 31, 2018)

Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. 

This place is full of snowflakes.


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

RandG said:



			Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.
		
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I don't think its even a case of being "right", I mean how can it be? It's a matter of opinion.

I thinking now along the lines of.....you're offended? So what.  There are plenty of people who aren't.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			I wholeheartedly agree with that.

However,  in this case (and some others) I have yet to hear any relevant party say they find this offensive.

Hence my concern over judgements being made "on behalf" of others.
		
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Me neither. I haven't heard anyone say they find it offensive. It's almost as though someone in the media has got hold of it and used it to stir up a controversy. 

A bit like the Facebook memes about groups being offended by the wearing of the Poppy. I've yet to hear anyone say that they're offended, yet you get hundreds of posts spouting bile about how these groups should leave the country. What groups?


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 31, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I remember watching a comedian (I forget his name) who did a speech on how it's ok to be offended....just dont expect others to change to suit your ideals.  I agree with that sentiment whole heatedly.
		
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Could it perhaps be this gem from Jonathan Pie you're referring to?


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)

Lilyhawk said:



			Could it perhaps be this gem from Jonathan Pie you're referring to?
		
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That's the one  

Absolutely nailed it.

Sorry to those offended by swearing


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 31, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			That's the one 

Absolutely nailed it.

Sorry to those offended by swearing 

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Perhaps I should've added a "Trigger-warning" to the comment.


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2018)

Dundee United player Jamie Robson has been punished for a â€œblackfaceâ€ Halloween costume. So maybe it is racist after all...


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## Orikoru (Dec 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Dundee United player Jamie Robson has been punished for a â€œblackfaceâ€ Halloween costume. So maybe it is racist after all...
		
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Don't know anything about this particular story, but I would say if you're dressed as a specific character or famous person, you can argue it is not racist because it's a tribute to someone you like or admire. Whereas if your costume is simply to blacken your face then that's racist without question.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Don't know anything about this particular story, but I would say if you're dressed as a specific character or famous person, you can argue it is not racist because it's a tribute to someone you like or admire. Whereas if your costume is simply to blacken your face then that's racist without question.
		
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 So should I be offended the next time someone wears a tartan tammy and red see you Jimmy wig, or when Mel Gibson says you can't take our freedom lol. I don't think so, Some people need to get a sense of humour or just GTF .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2018)

williamalex1 said:



			So should I be offended the next time someone wears a tartan tammy and red see you Jimmy wig, or when Mel Gibson says you can't take our freedom lol. I don't think so, Some people need to get a sense of humour or just GTF .
		
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No, but if in the case of Robson who blacked his face to get dressed up as a beach salesman and was therefore implying all beach sellers are black, thatâ€™s racially stereotyping black people, so if you get someone with a tartan tammy and a red see you Jimmy wig and pretending to be drunk and slapping women, then yes you should be offended because then theyâ€™ll be implying all Scottish men are drunken wife beaters and itâ€™s no different to Robsonâ€™s actions, no matter what their intention
Thereâ€™s a time and place and Iâ€™d suggest a professional footballer should be aware of his social responsibilities and there will be photographs taken.


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## Orikoru (Dec 13, 2018)

williamalex1 said:



			So should I be offended the next time someone wears a tartan tammy and red see you Jimmy wig, or when Mel Gibson says you can't take our freedom lol. I don't think so, Some people need to get a sense of humour or just GTF .
		
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I can't tell you what to be offended at, just like you can't tell anyone else. If you don't take offence at anything, then that's great for you, I try and be the same. I think 'blackface' as it's known is a different ball park though. I'm not going to tell black people they shouldn't be offended by it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

Dress up as Eddie Murphy, Samuel L Jackson, Will Smith and any other black actor that you admire. Don't put boot polish on your face though. Not tough to understand, most people get this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not racism IMO but then you could see why someone could be offended by it - so for that I think itâ€™s a poor choice and a lack of common sense
		
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Exactly. Which is why three guys doing a Diana Ross and the Supremes skit in our club Christmas Show did not 'black up'.  They wore tight and sparkly long dresses, donned big black hair wigs and slapped on the red lipstick - miming _Stop in the Name of Love_ - but not blacked up - and they didn't need to be for us to know exactly who they were supposed to be.

Imagine the guys *had '*blacked-up' and someone in the audience (majority not club members) had been offended and took a photo/video and posted it online.  Now what would that do for the club?


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## londonlewis (Dec 13, 2018)

It's not racism in my book, but I don't set the rules. I don't think she is trying to demean anyone. 
Is it offensive? Not to me it isn't. 
I think it's a dangerous precedent if we go by someone being offended by it. Who decides what is acceptable and what isn't? There will always be someone who is offended.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

This is all about snowflakes be offended on someone else's behalf. I grew up being told that people should be strong enough to shrug off bigotry and offensive remarks. Now the emphasis is about tip toeing on egg shells in an effort not to upset anyone. I am proud to admit that there has never been a day in my life where I have attempted to be politically correct.  I mange not to be offended by anything bad said to me (and there is loads) so I expect people to reciprocate when I am rude to them (and I quite often am)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

...and so if the guys in my golf club had 'blacked-up' when they did their Diana Ross and the Supremes bit in our club Christmas Show - and someone had videoed them and posted that on a local community Facebook page - how do we think that would have gone down out there?  What do we think folks out there would have thought of us?  Make us more attractive to new, younger and ethnic minority members?

It's all very well and good to say - _I'm alright with it - if others take offence then hell mend 'em that's their problem_ - but if others *do *take a very different view from you then that could well come back to bite - I just think that you have to be very careful.  The historical connections back through such as the B&W Minstrel Show are strong and not terribly positive.


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## londonlewis (Dec 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so if the guys in my golf club had 'blacked-up' when they did their Diana Ross and the Supremes bit in our club Christmas Show - and someone had videoed them and posted that on a local community Facebook page - how do we think that would have gone down out there?  What do we think folks out there would have thought of us?  Make us more attractive to new, younger and ethnic minority members?

It's all very well and good to say - _I'm alright with it - if others take offence then hell mend 'em that's their problem_ - but if others *do *take a very different view from you then that could well come back to bite - I just think that you have to be very careful.  The historical connections back through such as the B&W Minstrel Show are strong and not terribly positive.
		
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you make an excellent point. But who decides what is and what isn't offensive?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			you make an excellent point. But who decides what is and what isn't offensive?
		
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...those out there who would view the video...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			you make an excellent point. But who decides what is and what isn't offensive?
		
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Society. It is ever changing and on the whole the right choices are made.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Dress up as Eddie Murphy, Samuel L Jackson, Will Smith and any other black actor that you admire. Don't put boot polish on your face though. Not tough to understand, most people get this.
		
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Probably best to choose someone else to get dressed up as altogether. 

Letâ€™s say you dress up as Will Smith from Men in Black,youâ€™re basically Tommy Lee Jones.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Probably best to choose someone else to get dressed up as altogether.

Letâ€™s say you dress up as Will Smith from Men in Black,youâ€™re basically Tommy Lee Jones.
		
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Ha ha good point. The same outfit covers The Blues Brothers, minus the hats, so I could really confuse people there.

I hate fancy dress so I'd avoid it full stop.


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## londonlewis (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Society. It is ever changing and on the whole the right choices are made.
		
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Society as a whole or those that shout the loudest? 
It doesn't take long on twitter to see what you are dealing with. 

Debatable whether the right changes are being made. But fair point I suppose.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha good point. The same outfit covers The Blues Brothers, minus the hats, so I could really confuse people there.

I hate fancy dress so I'd avoid it full stop.
		
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It's getting beyond a joke , some people will really need to lighten up


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## londonlewis (Dec 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...those out there who would view the video...
		
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If more people don't find something offensive than do find something offensive, is it offensive or not?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			If more people don't find something offensive than do find something offensive, is it offensive or not?
		
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As far as my club's Christmas Show scenario is concerned the numbers don't really matter I'd suggest.  If only one person at the show found it offensive; video'd it, and posted the video on social media that can initiate enough outrage being raised for it very quickly to be very problematic - and could easily goes viral and become extremely damaging to the club.

As it happens the guys were great - they danced the parts brilliantly and all had a great laugh.  And not a blacked face in sight.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Society as a whole or those that shout the loudest?
It doesn't take long on twitter to see what you are dealing with.

Debatable whether the right changes are being made. But fair point I suppose.
		
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Ah, never listen to Twitter, full of angry people .

I guess my point is that society evolves and what is acceptable changes. There is rarely an announcement, it just gradually alters. I remember getting picked up when I described someone as coloured a good few years ago. That was perfectly acceptable for years and then suddenly it wasn't. Okay, change of language noted and we move on.

On an extreme level the football thread was talking about monkey chants in the 80's. Society deemed that unacceptable and that would not happen now, quite rightly.

The worry is if the pendulum swings too far and the twitterati and snowflakes get to decide. I'm with you there.


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## londonlewis (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ah, never listen to Twitter, full of angry people .

I guess my point is that society evolves and what is acceptable changes. There is rarely an announcement, it just gradually alters. I remember getting picked up when I described someone as coloured a good few years ago. That was perfectly acceptable for years and then suddenly it wasn't. Okay, change of language noted and we move on.

On an extreme level the football thread was talking about monkey chants in the 80's. Society deemed that unacceptable and that would not happen now, quite rightly.

The worry is if the pendulum swings too far and the twitterati and snowflakes get to decide. I'm with you there.
		
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You used to be able to call people black, then it was coloured, then it was black, now it's person of colour ... seems like political correctness can't make its mind up and is arguing a minor point (considering it keeps going back to being acceptable to call someone something that you previously shouldn't call them)

Monkey chants - this is preventing racism (in my opinion), so definitely a good thing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

It can be a minefield, no question.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Society. It is ever changing and on the whole the right choices are made.
		
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Disagree. Few people actually get offended. I have friends of different colours, faiths, and religions, and the banter between us is great. My best friend is Anglo Indian, and tells us that all white people look the same and smell of urine. When ever he says this we laugh, because we have a strong enough back bone to find it funny. I have a good mate that is from Dublin, and he enjoys Irish jokes as much as anyone else. The emphasis should be on NOT being over sensitive, and take a joke as it is meant to be. We now have a situation where some black people actually believe that they don't get jobs because of their colour, rather than their inexperience or their poor interviewing technique. We have women who actually believe that women earn less than men, when in actual fact studies prove that like for like they earn fractionally more. This country is the craziest country in the world, and I really wish that those who get upset about small things should brush the chip off of their shoulder and just get on with life. 

If you disagree with me, I suggest you don't play golf with my friends, because honestly, my views are tame !


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			You used to be able to call people black, then it was coloured, then it was black, now it's person of colour ... seems like political correctness can't make its mind up and is arguing a minor point (considering it keeps going back to being acceptable to call someone something that you previously shouldn't call them)

Monkey chants - this is preventing racism (in my opinion), so definitely a good thing.
		
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I own a football season ticket, and travelled abroad ten times to see my team. I genuinely haven't heard a monkey chant since the 70s. There are those people who genuinely look for racism where racism doesn't exist.


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## bluewolf (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I own a football season ticket, and travelled abroad ten times to see my team. I genuinely haven't heard a monkey chant since the 70s. There are those people who genuinely look for racism where racism doesn't exist.
		
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You are 100% absolutely deluded if you think Racism doesn't exist on football terraces.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Disagree. Few people actually get offended. I have friends of different colours, faiths, and religions, and the banter between us is great. My best friend is Anglo Indian, and tells us that all white people look the same and smell of urine. When ever he says this we laugh, because we have a strong enough back bone to find it funny. I have a good mate that is from Dublin, and he enjoys Irish jokes as much as anyone else. The emphasis should be on NOT being over sensitive, and take a joke as it is meant to be. We now have a situation where some black people actually believe that they don't get jobs because of their colour, rather than their inexperience or their poor interviewing technique. We have women who actually believe that women earn less than men, when in actual fact studies prove that like for like they earn fractionally more. This country is the craziest country in the world, and I really wish that those who get upset about small things should brush the chip off of their shoulder and just get on with life.

If you disagree with me, I suggest you don't play golf with my friends, because honestly, my views are tame !
		
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Surely itâ€™s about knowing your audience, your best mate is probably your best mate because of time, spent together, growing up together etc and shared experiences youâ€™ve developed.
Now if you were on a night out in a pub and he was overheard saying all white people look the same and smell of urine and a white person nearby overheard him and was offended and then punched your mate, would you then calmly explain to the offended your mate meant no offence or get laid into them?

Like the Dundee footballer, there could of been 200 people at that party and even if there was a risk of offending just 1 out of the 200, then he should of avoided offending the 1, and itâ€™s got nothing to do with Political Correctness or being a snowflake or whatever, itâ€™s about being a decent human being. Why risk offending anyone?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely itâ€™s about knowing your audience, your best mate is probably your best mate because of time, spent together, growing up together etc and shared experiences youâ€™ve developed.
Now if you were on a night out in a pub and he was overheard saying all white people look the same and smell of urine and a white person nearby overheard him and was offended and then punched your mate, would you then calmly explain to the offended your mate meant no offence or get laid into them?
		
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Seriously, and I mean mean this 100%, I would not be offended. Very little offends me because I have a backbone and the ability to let water run off my ducks back. You can say what you want about me, my family, my race, and even my football team, as words are simply a combination of letters, and no more.  My Anglo Indian mate quite often has Pa7i jokes told to him, because his appearance makes him look as such. He has a number of humorous replies he uses when necessary. If everyone thought like him and I, there would be no problem, and we could all just get on with life. I am white, heterosexual, in my sixties, balding, and not very tall. You can tell me as many jokes as you want about people who fit into my description, and then see how upset I get. Well, I don't, and that's because I don't have a chip on my shoulder. 

Yes, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, but those lines should be very wide, not very thin !


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You are 100% absolutely deluded if you think Racism doesn't exist on football terraces.....
		
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Well, I don't know where you watch football, but at my football club I don't see any, and neither do I when I travel to other clubs in this country or others I visit. Of course, I would imagine there is some in Russia and other Eastern block countries, but that really isn't my business. 55% of the premiership players are now black, so what supporters would chant songs about other teams black players. It wouldn't really make sense, would it ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Seriously, and I mean mean this 100%, I would not be offended. Very little offends me because I have a backbone and the ability to let water run off my ducks back. You can say what you want about me, my family, my race, and even my football team, as words are simply a combination of letters, and no more.  My Anglo Indian mate quite often has Pa7i jokes told to him, because his appearance makes him look as such. He has a number of humorous replies he uses when necessary. If everyone thought like him and I, there would be no problem, and we could all just get on with life. I am white, heterosexual, in my sixties, balding, and not very tall. You can tell me as many jokes as you want about people who fit into my description, and then see how upset I get. Well, I don't, and that's because I don't have a chip on my shoulder.

Yes, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, but those lines should be very wide, not very thin !
		
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Sorry Iâ€™m confused, you wouldnâ€™t be bothered if some bloke punched your mate because he was offended by what your mate said as a joke.
Because your not offended doesnâ€™t mean other people shouldnâ€™t be surely?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely itâ€™s about knowing your audience, your best mate is probably your best mate because of time, spent together, growing up together etc and shared experiences youâ€™ve developed.
Now if you were on a night out in a pub and he was overheard saying all white people look the same and smell of urine and a white person nearby overheard him and was offended and then punched your mate, would you then calmly explain to the offended your mate meant no offence or get laid into them?

Like the Dundee footballer, there could of been 200 people at that party and even if there was a risk of offending just 1 out of the 200, then he should of avoided offending the 1, and itâ€™s got nothing to do with Political Correctness or being a snowflake or whatever, itâ€™s about being a decent human being. Why risk offending anyone?
		
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There you go, that is exactly what I am talking about, it is about being a snowflake. Your worried about the one person who get's offended, but not the 199 who aren't. In short, society has to change it's behaviour to suit minorities, rather than to suit the majority. The vast majority of countries would never do this, but we happen to be one of the few crazy ones that is.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Iâ€™m confused, you wouldnâ€™t be bothered if some bloke punched your mate because he was offended by what your mate said as a joke.
Because your not offended doesnâ€™t mean other people shouldnâ€™t be surely?
		
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Perhaps I got confused, sorry. I would certainly not be offended by what my friend said, but would be offended by the fact he had been punched. There is never a reason for anyone to be physically assaulted because of ANYTHING said. I would hope you agree with that


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			There you go, that is exactly what I am talking about, it is about being a snowflake. Your worried about the one person who get's offended, but not the 199 who aren't. In short, society has to change it's behaviour to suit minorities, rather than to suit the majority. The vast majority of countries would never do this, but we happen to be one of the few crazy ones that is.
		
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No, your misunderstanding, why because Iâ€™m one of the 199 should the 1 be ignored? Havenâ€™t they got the same rights as the 199.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Perhaps I got confused, sorry. I would certainly not be offended by what my friend said, but would be offended by the fact he had been punched. There is never a reason for anyone to be physically assaulted because of ANYTHING said. I would hope you agree with that
		
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But thatâ€™s not the real world is it?
Personally I believe 99% of people are Racist to some degree.
Just pick your surroundings and just as your thick skinned about what you can put up with or take, doesnâ€™t mean we should judge or tell people not to be offended


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I think it would also be useful to differentiate between being offended and understanding that something could be offensive. As anyone on here who knows me will testify, I am almost impossible to offend. I have thicker skin than Andre the Giants foreskin. However, I can appreciate that certain things could be offensive. I can also appreciate that sometimes people can be over cautious about these things.

Still, live and let live eh. If it's easy to avoid offending someone, then why would I go out of my way to do it, just to make a fairly unnecessary point. Life's too short to be an arse. ðŸ‘
		
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Codpieceface ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			There you go, that is exactly what I am talking about, it is about being a snowflake. Your worried about the one person who get's offended, but not the 199 who aren't. In short, society has to change it's behaviour to suit minorities, rather than to suit the majority. The vast majority of countries would never do this, but we happen to be one of the few crazy ones that is.
		
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Isn't it possible you're both right? I guess we've all met someone who cries foul at the slightest thing. Ideally, you wouldn't want to offend them but, equally, someone could be ridiculously overly sensitive to the point of having a mental issue. You want to try working with someone who has autism or is on the Asberger's scale. You could say something that 199 people find either amusing or not even worth a second thought. But that 1 person, with valid issues, will flip.

The comment is probably fine but the person on the receiving end that has flipped needs an apology, and deserves an apology. Its about audience. We all know that we can get away with more with the right people, but that doesn't mean we can say it in front of people we don't know. If you want to try it out, try calling your boss's boss a thick tosser. You know you can say it jokey with your mates, and you know you're on dodgy ground with the boss's boss.


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## Kellfire (Dec 13, 2018)

I agree with Ricky Gervais, Christopher Hutchins and Stephen Fryâ€™s views on being offended for the most part. Google them if you donâ€™t know. They tend to swear so I wonâ€™t post them.


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## Kellfire (Dec 13, 2018)

Hmm...


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			No, your misunderstanding, why because Iâ€™m one of the 199 should the 1 be ignored? Havenâ€™t they got the same rights as the 199.
		
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That would mean 199 people are being prevented from using their freedom of speech, or having laugh, because 1 person is offended. Therefore that person isn't given the same rights, they are being given priority treatment.

If you pick up the paper this morning you will see that Chelsea football club are in a little trouble because their supporters have been accused of antisemitism. In actual fact they were singing a song that Chelsea supporters have been singing for at least the past ten years. It is primarily to get at Spurs supporters, as I doubt any of them really dislike Jews. I am both a Spurs supporter, and have some Jewish heritage. Am I offended or bothered, of course not, and anyone that is just needs to grow a backbone.

On a thread a little further down you mention that 99% of people are to some degree racist. At this point I should mention racism travels in more than one direction, despite what snowflakes think.  Of course, I agree. Human beings by nature are tribal pack animals. We find it hard and struggle with anything that is different, including sexual preference, colour, race, and especially alien culture. Some of us have evolved at different rates, and I think you will find that the indigenous Brit has evolved to a greater degree than most of our foreign counterparts.  However, this doesn't mean we are better  than them, it just means they are still living by instinct, rather than society pressure. The answer to all these problems are for people to be less sensitive, and actually accept the fact some other people have prejudices,  rather than putting pressure on people to be politically correct. One day (beyond our life time) these things will sort them out, but pressure from governments and liberals will only create more resistance !


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			That would mean 199 people are being prevented from using their freedom of speech, or having laugh, because 1 person is offended. Therefore that person isn't given the same rights, they are being given priority treatment.

If you pick up the paper this morning you will see that Chelsea football club are in a little trouble because their supporters have been accused of antisemitism. In actual fact they were singing a song that Chelsea supporters have been singing for at least the past ten years. It is primarily to get at Spurs supporters, as I doubt any of them really dislike Jews. I am both a Spurs supporter, and have some Jewish heritage. Am I offended or bothered, of course not, and anyone that is just needs to grow a backbone.

On a thread a little further down you mention that 99% of people are to some degree racist. At this point I should mention racism travels in more than one direction, despite what snowflakes think.  Of course, I agree. Human beings by nature are tribal pack animals. We find it hard and struggle with anything that is different, including sexual preference, colour, race, and especially alien culture. Some of us have evolved at different rates, *and I think you will find that the indigenous Brit has evolved to a greater degree than most of our foreign counterparts.*  However, this doesn't mean we are better  than them, it just means they are still living by instinct, rather than society pressure. The answer to all these problems are for people to be less sensitive, and actually accept the fact people have prejudices,  rather than putting pressure on people to be politically correct.
		
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Ref the bit highlighted, what evidence do you have that Brits have evolved to a greater degree? As an island nation, with less cross border traffic than, say, the Dutch/German border or Dutch/French border I'd say the opposite is true, i.e. that Brits are more likely to be racist than our neighbours.

And just to go back to the highlighted comment; the following is a definition of racism. *Racism* is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Your comment could be deemed racist.


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## londonlewis (Dec 14, 2018)

This thread is getting silly now.


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## bluewolf (Dec 14, 2018)

Brilliant. I suppose that as only a 2nd generation Brit then I should accept that I'm not as evolved as most on here.. A new low for this forum and I quite clearly am in the wrong place.. I'll take my leave until I've evolved enough to join in the conversation..

By the way, I'm not offended in the slightest. I just think that certain individuals are a stain on the mattress of life..


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## chrisd (Dec 14, 2018)

Having read through the last few pages of this thread and now understanding my right of being professionally offended, I state, here and now, if anyone writes anything of a derogatory nature about my age and/or my physical condition I will now be professionally offended and will contemplate taking action against that person (so watch out BIM)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			That would mean 199 people are being prevented from using their freedom of speech, or having laugh, because 1 person is offended. Therefore that person isn't given the same rights, they are being given priority treatment.

If you pick up the paper this morning you will see that Chelsea football club are in a little trouble because their supporters have been accused of antisemitism. In actual fact they were singing a song that Chelsea supporters have been singing for at least the past ten years. It is primarily to get at Spurs supporters, as I doubt any of them really dislike Jews. I am both a Spurs supporter, and have some Jewish heritage. Am I offended or bothered, of course not, and anyone that is just needs to grow a backbone.

On a thread a little further down you mention that 99% of people are to some degree racist. At this point I should mention racism travels in more than one direction, despite what snowflakes think.  Of course, I agree. Human beings by nature are tribal pack animals. We find it hard and struggle with anything that is different, including sexual preference, colour, race, and especially alien culture. Some of us have evolved at different rates, and I think you will find that the indigenous Brit has evolved to a greater degree than most of our foreign counterparts.  However, this doesn't mean we are better  than them, it just means they are still living by instinct, rather than society pressure. The answer to all these problems are for people to be less sensitive, and actually accept the fact some other people have prejudices,  rather than putting pressure on people to be politically correct. One day (beyond our life time) these things will sort them out, but pressure from governments and liberals will only create more resistance !
		
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So the 1 is put before the 199 and the majority should be able to express their freedom of speech? Who decides the line and when it is crossed? The 199 I take it?
Who decides when the 1 is a snowflake? You? Or someone less sensitive than you? 
Itâ€™s about common decencey.
Straight away these days you get more non-snowflakes commenting than the supposed offended snowflake.
As for 99% of people are racist, I mean all people, regardless of nationality or race.
I think you said youâ€™re in your 60â€™s, I can guarantee those in their 70â€™s will tell you how lucky you are, just like those who were born in the 70â€™s had it easier than those born in the 60â€™s, then thereâ€™s those born in the 80â€™s, they have no idea how lucky they were, but for godsake donâ€™t bring the children of the 90â€™s or the millenials into the conversation, they really really have had it easy!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			This thread is getting silly now.
		
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People are having a healthy debate and opinions are being expressed, nobody is insulting each other or resorting to name calling, you have a choice, ignore the thread, your post adds nothing.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			People are having a healthy debate and opinions are being expressed, nobody is insulting each other or resorting to name calling, you have a choice, ignore the thread, your post adds nothing. 

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Totally agree, it's a very civilised conversation being held by two people with differing opinions. I think it's fair to say, that's what forums are for. Going back to your post prior. We differ in the sense that you appear to be  bothered if someone is offended by comments made by other people, I am a lot less so. As stated before, I do believe there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, however it is my opinion those lines should be broad, and people must attempt to be less sensitive. This is an argument I am losing more and more as the years go on, and am sure it will come to a point where people will be petrified to have any type of conversation in the fear they get arrested for a hate crime. What makes it worse is that my golf for the last month has been dreadful


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			There you go, that is exactly what I am talking about, it is about being a snowflake. Your worried about the one person who get's offended, but not the 199 who aren't. In short, society has to change it's behaviour to suit minorities, rather than to suit the majority. The vast majority of countries would never do this, but we happen to be one of the few crazy ones that is.
		
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OK then.  What about my club Christmas Show scenario.  Let's say that the guys in our club Christmas Show *had *blacked-up for their Diana Ross and Supremes skit - and a guest in the audience takes offence; videos it, and posts it on social media with a very critical comment about the club.  Next day some of our greens are dug up and clubhouse windows are smashed.

Worth offending that one individual was it because the other 199 in the room weren't?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Totally agree, it's a very civilised conversation being held by two people with differing opinions. I think it's fair to say, that's what forums are for. Going back to your post prior. We differ in the sense that you appear to be  bothered if someone is offended by comments made by other people, I am a lot less so. As stated before, I do believe there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, however it is my opinion those lines should be broad, and people must attempt to be less sensitive. This is an argument I am losing more and more as the years go on, and am sure it will come to a point where people will be petrified to have any type of conversation in the fear they get arrested for a hate crime. What makes it worse is that my golf for the last month has been dreadful 

Click to expand...

Thankfully my Golf is great, 
I come from the point of view of being an Equality & Diversity Officer in the Army for over 10 years and in that time I must of saw and dealt with just about both ends of the spectrum and everything in between, more often than not it was complicated by third party involvement.
There were plenty of occassions people were over sensitive and over reacted, but I also seen cases were individuals were ignored and expected to suffer in silence as the perpatrators didnâ€™t mean any harm.
The other problem these days is as soon as you try to get people to try and see both sides or try and show some sympathy youâ€™re labelled a snowflake, but when thatâ€™s used as a defence, some have lost the argument.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then.  What about my club Christmas Show scenario.  Let's say that the guys in our club Christmas Show *had *blacked-up for their Diana Ross and Supremes skit - and a guest in the audience takes offence; videos it, and posts it on social media with a very critical comment about the club.  Next day some of our greens are dug up and clubhouse windows are smashed.

Worth offending that one individual was it because the other 199 in the room weren't?
		
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What harm or offence would they have caused by painting their faces, copying a pop group in every way, colour/clothes/song theyâ€™re not stereotyping black females.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Ref the bit highlighted, what evidence do you have that Brits have evolved to a greater degree? As an island nation, with less cross border traffic than, say, the Dutch/German border or Dutch/French border I'd say the opposite is true, i.e. that Brits are more likely to be racist than our neighbours.

And just to go back to the highlighted comment; the following is a definition of racism. *Racism* is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Your comment could be deemed racist.
		
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Absolutely, it could be, and that's why political correctness is so bonkers. Your definition of the word "racism" is indeed what it reads in the dictionary. In reality we all have our own definition. I certainly believe that certain races are superior to others, and that's how the planet has evolved. However, I treat every person as an individual and will befriend those I like, and keep out of the way of those I don't. In other words, my opinion of their race does not effect my opinion of them as individuals. Now, most sensible people wouldn't consider me a racist, but there are those who will read the dictionary definition of the word and say I am.

Some years ago, and prior to retirement, I attended an equal opportunities management course. Although I am far from politically correct, I worked in an environment where I had to be quite careful. There were seven of us in the room, and we were all assured by the instructor that we could speak openly and honestly. We were then asked to announce our prejudices. Five of the seven people in the room said they didn't like the French (I wasn't one). After we announced our prejudices I asked the instructor if it was considered OK to dislike people from a European country, and if so was it OK to dislike someone from an Asian country. She skipped around the answer like a politician, but I know what she wanted to say. In my opinion it is perfectly acceptable to like or dislike who you wish, and regardless of reason. What isn't OK is to be blatantly rude or offensive to the person in question. I am happy to tell jokes about any nationality, but until I know the individual involved, I wouldn't tell the joke in front of them.  

With regards to your comments about refugees. I am not a believer that mass immigration can work in a short period of time, and especially from a culture so different to ours. The decisions made by the countries you have mentioned have proven to be disastrous, and will no doubt be the downfall of the relevant leaders. The UK's decision to accept less refugees was primarily practical, as we already have thousands of people who we can't presently home, let alone a creaking infrastructure.  In my opinion the governments decision was based on common sense, not racism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Nope, regardles of views being racist or not, there is absolutely no way any race is superior to another in any way, shape or form.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thankfully my Golf is great, 
I come from the point of view of being an Equality & Diversity Officer in the Army for over 10 years and in that time I must of saw and dealt with just about both ends of the spectrum and everything in between, more often than not it was complicated by third party involvement.
There were plenty of occassions people were over sensitive and over reacted, but I also seen cases were individuals were ignored and expected to suffer in silence as the perpatrators didnâ€™t mean any harm.
The other problem these days is as soon as you try to get people to try and see both sides or try and show some sympathy youâ€™re labelled a snowflake, but when thatâ€™s used as a defence, some have lost the argument.
		
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LOL, I am a vegetarian, but I think I would make a better butcher than I would an Equality & Diversity officer 

Look, whilst I think people should harden up, I understand why some people can be offended by certain comments. However, what drives me bonkers is people getting offended on other peoples behalves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			LOL, I am a vegetarian, but I think I would make a better butcher than I would an Equality & Diversity officer 

Look, whilst I think people should harden up, I understand why some people can be offended by certain comments. However, what drives me bonkers is people getting offended on other peoples behalves.
		
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But thatâ€™s the go to line, thatâ€™s the line thatâ€™s trawled out when I or anybody tries to explain why somebody may be offended.
You could make a statement to someone and they ignore it, if I then step in and try and explain why your statement could cause offense, it doesnâ€™t mean Iâ€™m offended by your statement or a snowflake, but thatâ€™s how itâ€™s perceived and the discussion is closed down.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope, regardles of views being racist or not, there is absolutely no way any race is superior to another in any way, shape or form.
		
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We will have to agree to disagree. In actual fact, I believe there are races superior to our own. OK, so a race of people who have developed their country, live in a civilised manner, respect each other, have a good animal welfare record, and a low crime rate, isn't superior to a race who generally in live squalor, have a high crime rate, and treat animals no better than vegetables. It may be politically correct to say all races are equal, but the reality is that they just aren't.  

Of course, there is another discussion, what actually determines a race ?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			But thatâ€™s the go to line, thatâ€™s the line thatâ€™s trawled out when I or anybody tries to explain why somebody may be offended.
		
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But if the comment isn't made in front of the person in question, it doesn't matter. Your logic would therefore mean I couldn't comment on Joe Bloggs big nose looking funny, because if he was stood next to us he would be offended.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			LOL, I am a vegetarian, but I think I would make a better butcher than I would an Equality & Diversity officer 

Look, whilst I think people should harden up, I understand why some people can be offended by certain comments. However, what drives me bonkers is people getting offended on other peoples behalves.
		
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I tend not to get offended on behalf of others, but hereâ€™s a thought for you. Someone might step in on someone elseâ€™s behalf because they are weaker. Iâ€™ll happily step in and defend someone who isnâ€™t strong enough to defend themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			We will have to agree to disagree. In actual fact, I believe there are races superior to our own. OK, so a race of people who have developed their country, live in a civilised manner, respect each other, have a good animal welfare record, and a low crime rate, isn't superior to a race who generally in live squalor, have a high crime rate, and treat animals no better than vegetables. It may be politically correct to say all races are equal, but the reality is that they just aren't. 

Of course, there is another discussion, what actually determines a race ?
		
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I would say you are describing culture.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			But if the comment isn't made in front of the person in question, it doesn't matter. Your logic would therefore mean I couldn't comment on Joe Bloggs big nose looking funny, because if he was stood next to us he would be offended.
		
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No Iâ€™m not, you are taking it to extremes.
The Dundee footballer for example, he could of been dressing up as part of a private joke with a black mate, absolutely innocent, no problem and if it had been done in a private party or in a private home etc, nobody would be any wiser.
But he didnâ€™t and somebody pointing out how that costume could cause offence doesnâ€™t mean they are offended.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope, regardles of views being racist or not, *there is absolutely no way any race is superior to another in any way, shape or form*.
		
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Got to disagree with you there Paul. 

The 100m is far superior and more interesting than the 10000 metres.


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## Kellfire (Dec 14, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got to disagree with you there Paul.

The 100m is far superior and more interesting than the 10000 metres. 

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And black people run it faster because...?


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

The film "White men can't jump" is due a ban then!! 

Racism is bloomin obvious.  (mostly)  Faux outrage on someone elses' behalf is bloomin obvious (mostly) Double standards are bloomin obvious (mostly)

It's a small planet.  Be nice eh?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			What harm or offence would they have caused by painting their faces, copying a pop group in every way, colour/clothes/song theyâ€™re not stereotyping black females.
		
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Why do we not see the B&W Minstrel show these days?

It doesn't matter what you or I think about blacking up.  

The guys decided against blacking-up as they realised it could backfire and cause the club serious problems, and they knew that they didn't need to 'black-up' to be a recognisable, though very amateurish, Diana Ross and the Supremes 'tribute act'.  

They were great, the audience loved it, and as far as I know nobody was offended - and they couldn't have got a better reception Blacked-up.  In fact blacking-up could easily have drawn some breaths and taken from their reception - never mind the wider risk presented.

Just how it is.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			And black people run it faster because...?
		
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Isn't it something to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles and physiology? I have a vague memory of it from GCSE PE but that was many years ago.


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## Kellfire (Dec 14, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't it something to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles and physiology? I have a vague memory of it from GCSE PE but that was many years ago.
		
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Careful - youâ€™re almost agreeing that one of the races has an advantage over another. And some deem that racist.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do we not see the B&W Minstrel show these days?

It doesn't matter what you or I think about blacking up. 

The guys decided against blacking-up as they realised it could backfire and cause the club serious problems, and they knew that they didn't need to 'black-up' to be a recognisable, though very amateurish, Diana Ross and the Supremes 'tribute act'. 

They were great, the audience loved it, and as far as I know nobody was offended - and they couldn't have got a better reception Blacked-up.  In fact blacking-up could easily have drawn some breaths and taken from their reception - never mind the wider risk presented.

Just how it is.
		
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If you canâ€™t see a difference between your mates doing a tribute act and the  Black and Minstrel Show, I canâ€™t help you!


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do we not see the B&W Minstrel show these days?

It doesn't matter what you or I think about blacking up. 

The guys decided against blacking-up as they realised it could backfire and cause the club serious problems, and they knew that they didn't need to 'black-up' to be a recognisable, though very amateurish, Diana Ross and the Supremes 'tribute act'. 

They were great, the audience loved it, and as far as I know nobody was offended - and they couldn't have got a better reception Blacked-up.  In fact blacking-up could easily have drawn some breaths and taken from their reception - never mind the wider risk presented.

Just how it is.
		
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This is it. The vast (very vast) amount of black people offended by the words "black board" "black sheep" or the black and white minstrels, are minuscule. Muslims are not not offended by Christmas, Irish people are not offended by Irish jokes. It is the lefty liberal snowflakes who take offence, and as a result create problems where problems don't exist. We don't need laws, we don't need "get it out campaigns", and we don't want the BBC telling us what we have to think. Eventually things will sort themselves out, but outside interference will only hinder natural progression.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I tend not to get offended on behalf of others, but hereâ€™s a thought for you. Someone might step in on someone elseâ€™s behalf because they are weaker. Iâ€™ll happily step in and defend someone who isnâ€™t strong enough to defend themselves.
		
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Good for you, I wouldn't dream of it !


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			This is it. The vast (very vast) amount of black people offended by the words "black board" "black sheep" or the black and white minstrels, are minuscule. Muslims are not not offended by Christmas, Irish people are not offended by Irish jokes. It is the lefty liberal snowflakes who take offence, and as a result create problems where problems don't exist. We don't need laws, we don't need "get it out campaigns", and we don't want the BBC telling us what we have to think. Eventually things will sort themselves out, but outside interference will only hinder natural progression.
		
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When you mention Muslims and Irish people are you speaking on behalf of all of them? And, is there any chance some Muslims and Irish people are offended by Christmas or Irish Jokes.
I like to think Iâ€™m quite thick skinned and have heard 99% of jokes about Scousers, but I can guarantee you I would react differently to the person or circumstances when those jokes are being told.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			When you mention Muslims and Irish people are you speaking on behalf of all of them? And, is there any chance some Muslims and Irish people are offended by Christmas or Irish Jokes.
		
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So what your saying is that we shouldn't celebrate Christmas or tell Irish jokes because some of them may be offended?

I spend some time on political forums, and have done for some years. People with politically correct views more often than not talk themselves into corners, because the concept is generally illogical. Please allow me to give you an example. My son went to university a normal person, and came out a raving snowflake. He hates racism, he hates sexism, he hates violence, he hates religious intolerance, and he hates  homophobia. However, when anything is said that resembles a negative remark about the one religion that reflects all of those negative values, he hits the roof. His entire ethos is completely contradictory and hypocritical.


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## Midnight (Dec 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			And black people run it faster because...?
		
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Because we're awesome mate.ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			So what your saying is that we shouldn't celebrate Christmas or tell Irish jokes because some of them may be offended?

I spend some time on political forums, and have done for some years. People with politically correct views more often than not talk themselves into corners, because the concept is generally illogical. Please allow me to give you an example. My son went to university a normal person, and came out a raving snowflake. He hates racism, he hates sexism, he hates violence, he hates religious intolerance, and he hates  homophobia. However, when anything is said that resembles a negative remark about the one religion that reflects all of those negative values, he hits the roof. His entire ethos is completely contradictory and hypocritical.
		
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Once again your argument/point of view is to take it to extremes.
Who mentioned not celebrating Christmas or to stop telling Irish jokes!
This is what I mean by more people being upset and taking it to extremes than by those they complain about.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 15, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I would say you are describing culture.
		
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The two are very tightly linked, but I accept your comment


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 15, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Once again your argument/point of view is to take it to extremes.
Who mentioned not celebrating Christmas or to stop telling Irish jokes!
This is what I mean by more people being upset and taking it to extremes than by those they complain about.
		
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Your missing the point a little. I know many people who claim to be fed up by Muslims because they believe they get offended by Christmas. You and I know this isn't true. This untrue rumour originated from a few left wing councils that renamed Christmas winterval. My point being that some racism is self inflicted through the stupidity of our indigenous left wing liberals. The law, along with our government are attempting to force our opinions and behaviour. This action tends to work with a younger generation, but creates resentment amongst older ones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Your missing the point a little. I know many people who claim to be fed up by Muslims because they believe they get offended by Christmas. You and I know this isn't true. This untrue rumour originated from a few left wing councils that renamed Christmas winterval. My point being that some racism is self inflicted through the stupidity of our indigenous left wing liberals. The law, along with our government are attempting to force our opinions and behaviour. This action tends to work with a younger generation, but creates resentment amongst older ones.
		
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But itâ€™s easier to ignore them and deprive them of the attention their after.
It happens all the time, somebody posts one of these daft stories, 1 person defends the offended, 10 come along to tell us theyâ€™re fed up by those being offended on behalf of others and so on and so on.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 15, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			But itâ€™s easier to ignore them and deprive them of the attention their after.
It happens all the time, somebody posts one of these daft stories, 1 person defends the offended, 10 come along to tell us theyâ€™re fed up by those being offended on behalf of others and so on and so on.
		
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I'm pretty good at ignoring these rumours, but many aren't. The one in question is actually true, and Birmingham council are the guilty party. My point being that it is the lefty liberals who tend to cause the friction, not the people they claim to protect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I'm pretty good at ignoring these rumours, but many aren't. The one in question is actually true, and Birmingham council are the guilty party. My point being that it is the lefty liberals who tend to cause the friction, not the people they claim to protect.
		
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It takes 2 surfaces to cause friction, some of these idiots and the nonsense they spout ends up meaning the real issues are ignored, sadly everything is lumped together and mocked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			If you canâ€™t see a difference between your mates doing a tribute act and the  Black and Minstrel Show, I canâ€™t help you!
		
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I don't know that I disagree with your p.o.v - though they weren't a tribute act...basically just three guys miming and dancing along to a song. 

But I am not the person in the audience who *does* take it the wrong way and decides that three middle-aged white guys don't have to black their faces to do a skit on a black female group.  The laugh is actually three middle-aged guys dressed up as glamorous young women in tight sparkly long dresses; loads of lippy, and big hair doing cool dance moves.  And sure enough they got the laughs.

But were they to have blacked-up it would only take one individual - most likely someone not a member (the majority of the audience) - to decide that they don't like what they saw; that the guys blacking-up is irrelevant to the laugh, and that the 'girls' skin colour should not come into it. They video it - and post it on social media...and we can all guess the reaction...sadly...

All I am saying is that if you are going to black-up for whatever reason, then be very careful of unintended consequences.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know that I disagree with your p.o.v - though they weren't a tribute act...basically just three guys miming and dancing along to a song.

But I am not the person in the audience who *does* take it the wrong way and decides that three middle-aged white guys don't have to black their faces to do a skit on a black female group.  The laugh is actually three middle-aged guys dressed up as glamorous young women in tight sparkly long dresses; loads of lippy, and big hair doing cool dance moves.  And sure enough they got the laughs.

But were they to have blacked-up it would only take one individual - most likely someone not a member (the majority of the audience) - to decide that they don't like what they saw; that the guys blacking-up is irrelevant to the laugh, and that the 'girls' skin colour should not come into it. They video it - and post it on social media...and we can all guess the reaction...sadly...

All I am saying is that if you are going to black-up for whatever reason, then be very careful of unintended consequences.
		
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Again though, letâ€™s say the song was â€œBaby Loveâ€ hit by the Supremes covered by numerous artists including female groups, which act were they mimicking?
Dressing in up in tribute and as part of the persona isnâ€™t the issue, if theyâ€™d of put a bone through their nose or wore massive lips or etc etc and emphasied stereotypical features then yes Iâ€™d agree theyâ€™d be crossing a line.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though, letâ€™s say the song was â€œBaby Loveâ€ hit by the Supremes covered by numerous artists including female groups, which act were they mimicking?
Dressing in up in tribute and as part of the persona isnâ€™t the issue, if theyâ€™d of put a bone through their nose or wore massive lips or etc etc and emphasied stereotypical features then yes Iâ€™d agree theyâ€™d be crossing a line.
		
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The risk that anyone runs when blacking up is that someone takes offence and it comes back to bite.

For some any rationale given for the 'blacking-up' is irrelevant, the blacking up is just in itself offensive.  So unless you really have to - I might suggest don't do it.

The skit in my club show was done as a laugh.  They would not have got more laughs if they had blacked-up.,  In fact I strongly suspect that some in the audience would have found it unnecessary - maybe not offensive as such - but unnecessary - and I am guessing that there *would *have been some intakes of breath.

I do ask however - what is it about a famous black musical act that might *require *a tribute act to black-up.  I wonder how many Nat King Cole or Sammy Davis Jnr tribute acts black up?

Our guys thought about it.  They decided to not to - both because they realised that they didn't _*have *_to - but also as they were conscious that it *could *have been misrepresented or misunderstood and backfire badly on the club.  The correct decision IMO.

BTW - it was 'Stop in The Name Of Love'


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2018)

Anyone who thinks the UK citizens are basically racist should decide whether we are worse or better than other nations. We permit a wide variety of religions ad sects to build their temples, Mosques etc. Try doing that or speaking your views in China, the Middle East and elsewhere. We as Brits tend to modify our behaviour when in other countries but we pretty much accept and respect the activities of international visitors.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			Anyone who thinks the UK citizens are basically racist should decide whether we are worse or better than other nations. We permit a wide variety of religions ad sects to build their temples, Mosques etc. Try doing that or speaking your views in China, the Middle East and elsewhere. We as Brits tend to modify our behaviour when in other countries but we pretty much accept and respect the activities of international visitors.
		
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Well said, and you are so right. Unfortunately this isn't enough for our liberal Guardian reading snowflakes.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The risk that anyone runs when blacking up is that someone takes offence and it comes back to bite.

For some any rationale given for the 'blacking-up' is irrelevant, the blacking up is just in itself offensive.
		
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Offensive to who. I don't personally know anyone who would be offended by it, and I would lay money on nine out of ten black people not being offended either. Unfortunately, and as usual, it's the small minority of people who do get unnecessarily offended who determine our direction. It's a very strange country we live in, and I can't see it getting any less strange


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

No it's not racist, if a black person put white foundation on would the same question be asked ? I really worry about freedom of speech and expression in this say and age, there are too many people with left wing ideologies trying to be PC. my message to these people is grow up and worry about something worth worrying about


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

The question would gave been more appropriate if it asked, Are people in society too easily offended and is freedom of speech and expression at risk because of this ?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The question would gave been more appropriate if it asked, Are people in society too easily offended and is freedom of speech and expression at risk because of this ?
		
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*Answer, YES*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The question would gave been more appropriate if it asked, Are people in society too easily offended and is freedom of speech and expression at risk because of this ?
		
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No, weâ€™ve always had the moaners, just social media gives them a platform.
99% of people know what standard of behaviour is acceptable along with good manners and common decencey, regardless of when they were born.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



*Answer, YES*

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Is that youâ€™re answer to the question, â€œDo you like stableford comps?â€


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The question would gave been more appropriate if it asked, Are people in society too easily offended and is freedom of speech and expression at risk because of this ?
		
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Actually I believe people in society are becoming more tolerant of others - people are more understanding that something that may have been considered funny in the past can now be considered unacceptable. For me itâ€™s forward steps to a more respectable considerate world where free speech is still there but it comes with personal responsibility to ensure everyoneâ€™s needs and feelings are catered for


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually I believe people in society are becoming more tolerant of others - people are more understanding that something that may have been considered funny in the past can now be considered unacceptable. For me itâ€™s forward steps to a more respectable considerate world where free speech is still there but it comes with personal responsibility to ensure everyoneâ€™s needs and feelings are catered for
		
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If you think that your crazy, the only thing society has become more to is left wing ideologues putting forward ridiculous policies. Us brits could take a leaf out of the French people's books, and the right to free speech directly correlates with the right to be upset by someone's views, the difference between free speech is about the right to voice your opinions without the worry of upsetting someone, it is a different story to go out and INTENTIONALLY upset someone with your views but if someone is upset upon hearing your views it's their right to be upset as much as it is your right to voice them. It is only wrong to intentionally target a group of people or person with the goal of upsetting them, but if you truly believe what you say your goal isn't to upset anybody  it is only to express what you believe to be true


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

Take this forum for example, if the right to upset someone or say something people don't agree with was withdrawn, it would be a pretty boring and false place


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			No it's not racist, if a black person put white foundation on would the same question be asked ? I really worry about freedom of speech and expression in this say and age, there are too many people with left wing ideologies trying to be PC. my message to these people is grow up and worry about something worth worrying about
		
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it does not matter one iota whether the same question would be asked or not.

If you don't *have *to do something that is in itself not necessary, and that you know that might well upset someone else - then actually maybe just don't do it!  And that applies to anything in life.

Since when was it *necessary *to black-up to do a comedy skit on a black pop group when the laugh is actually about three middle-aged guys dressing up as glamorous young women, miming and dancing to a pop song.

The guys at my club made the *right *decision in not 'blacking up' - though that might have been against their wishes - but it was their best and correct judgement.  By blacking up they would have been saying that skin colour was important for what they were doing - and it wasn't - and that is I think would have had them heading down the dodgy path that could have had repercussions on the club.  That you, I, Uncle Tom Cobley and all - might not be offended matters not a jot - somebody might have been.  Just don;t do it.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

It is your democratic right to do whatever you like at the risk of upsetting someone in a democracy, if it is intentionally done to upset someone is where the problem is. If you take the view to censor people's views, expressions and opinions you should probably move to Russia or the UAE ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



*It is your democratic right to do whatever you like at the risk of upsetting someone in a democracy,* if it is intentionally done to upset someone is where the problem is. If you take the view to censor people's views, expressions and opinions you should probably move to Russia or the UAE ?
		
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It is your democratic right to act and speak as you like within the law - and to vote if you wish your views represented.  But sure - you can express your views as you wish in full understanding of any repercussions, and that is the individual's look-out.  But when in expressing your views you might actually end up with others on the receiving end of any repercussions, then I think you have to be very careful over what you say and do.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

The fact you think it is right that people should not say or do something out of FEAR IT MIGHT upset someone is laughable, freedom of speech must be protected. Not everyone agrees with everything or finds it in good taste but to suggest people don't do anything out of FEAR of upsetting someone is quite honestly ridiculous. It is your right to be upset at things as it is to express things. Take gay marriage for example, should the Catholic church or anybody be condemned for saying they don't agree with it even if it upsets some ? Your point is a dig at the heart of society and if your views were followed throughout history quite simply we would not live in a democracy and be the 'tolerable' society you claim we are


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The fact you think it is right that people should not say or do something out of FEAR IT MIGHT upset someone is laughable, freedom of speech must be protected. Not everyone agrees with everything or finds it in good taste but to suggest people don't do anything out of FEAR of upsetting someone is quite honestly ridiculous. It is your right to be upset at things as it is to express things. Take gay marriage for example, should the Catholic church or anybody be condemned for saying they don't agree with it even if it upsets some ? Your point is a dig at the heart of society and if your views were followed throughout history quite simply we would not live in a democracy and be the 'tolerable' society you claim we are
		
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I may have got this wrong but are you saying that people should be able to say whatever they want even if they offend someone as long as they donâ€™t mean to offend someone ?

So someone could express racist or views even though they offend people but he is ok because he doesnâ€™t mean to offend someone and itâ€™s up to the people being â€œoffendedâ€ to be less PC ?


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

No I'm not saying that, inciting hate or going out to upset a particular person intentionally is whateyou would call racist or hate speech however if you are expressing an opinion such as that on gay marriage, migrants whatever this is not racist or hate or anything. This is where people have to be very careful what they wish for, i would only call going out to intentionally incite hate ir violence BASED on race, gender or whatever as racist or hate speech and this sort of behaviour should rightly be condemned but to say that people should not say or do things in case someone finds it offensive, unpalatable or whatever is WRONG and is just as likely to incite hate or racism as people will be scared of saying the wrong thing. People in general have to be careful what they wish for


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that youâ€™re answer to the question, â€œDo you like stableford comps?â€
		
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Yep, I hate medal. My answer was YES, to the following post. "The question would have been more appropriate if it asked, Are people in society too easily offended and is freedom of speech and expression at risk because of this ? "

The poster was most eloquent, and I really couldn't add any more.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I may have got this wrong but are you saying that people should be able to say whatever they want even if they offend someone as long as they donâ€™t mean to offend someone ?

So someone could express racist or views even though they offend people but he is ok because he doesnâ€™t mean to offend someone and itâ€™s up to the people being â€œoffendedâ€ to be less PC ?
		
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I would say that you are quite accurate. I believe people should be able to express an opinion regardless of whether it offends anyone or not. However, if the sole purpose is to offend an individual or group, without being constructive, that may be different. An element of UK society is so concerned about a minority of people being offended, they have totally forgotten about the majority of people who are not offended. The emphasis has been taken away from being strong enough to let water run off of a ducks back, to those who break down in a heap of tears because they don't like what they have heard. In short, this element of our society wants us all to become a bunch of spineless wimps.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I would say that you are quite accurate. I believe people should be able to express an opinion regardless of whether it offends anyone or not. However, if the sole purpose is to offend an individual or group, without being constructive, that may be different. An element of UK society is so concerned about a minority of people being offended, they have totally forgotten about the majority of people who are not offended. The emphasis has been taken away from being strong enough to let water run off of a ducks back, to those who break down in a heap of tears because they don't like what they have heard. In short, this element of our society wants us all to become a bunch of spineless wimps.
		
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You really have spouted some rubbish at times on here.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You really have spouted some rubbish at times on here.
		
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For someone who initially presented themselves as quite intelligent, you have let yourself down !

My stance remains the same. Our freedom of speech has been held back because a minority of people are upset by the comments of others, and what's worse is many of those are upset on the behalf of others.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			For someone who initially presented themselves as quite intelligent, you have let yourself down !

My stance remains the same. Our freedom of speech has been held back because a minority of people are upset by the comments of others, and what's worse is many of those are upset on the behalf of others.
		
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You have provided absolutely no evidence apart from what you believe.

You seem to believe freedom of speech is the right to say anything so long as you believe you have no intention to offend anyone, regardless of how offensive your words may be.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You have provided absolutely no evidence apart from what you believe.

You seem to believe freedom of speech is the right to say anything so long as you believe you have no intention to offend anyone, regardless of how offensive your words may be.
		
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Everyone has the right to be offended, if your offensive because of things such as colour,race,gender then that is WRONG however people cannot legitimately say you cannot be allowed to offend people if you are expressing your point of view or opinions etc. Its your right to speak and this must be respected


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Everyone has the right to be offended, if your offensive because of things such as colour,race,gender then that is WRONG however people cannot legitimately say you cannot be allowed to offend people if you are expressing your point of view or opinions etc. Its your right to speak and this must be respected
		
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This thread is about racism, what exactly is it you or anyone else wants to say that you/they believe people will claim to be offended by?
The Daily Mail has today claimed Gingerbread Men have been renamed Gingerbread Person by the Scottish Parliament in their cafe, in case the traditional name causes offence.
Absolutely ridiculous and youâ€™d hope theyâ€™d have better things to do, but instead of ignoring it and giving it no publicity, a national newspaper published the story and on social media there is outrage from people against those that offended by the word gingerbread men.
Except when we get to the facts, the Scottish Parliament hasnâ€™t banned anything, the cafe changed the name and not one person has come out in support of the decision to change the name.
The only people who seem to be getting upset is thousands claiming itâ€™s pc going too far!


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 17, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Yep, you completely missed the point! Again.
		
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Oh the irony ðŸ˜‚


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## Tashyboy (Dec 17, 2018)

Anyway back on topic, even I was shocked to read that Ghandi was rascist. You know the guy with the flip flops.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2018)

It should be possible for anyone to say what they like in private but in public it is necessary to have regard to society's norms, the audience and the context. What annoys me is those people who report or claim to be offended by something they overheard from a private non-public conversation.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 17, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Anyway back on topic, even I was shocked to read that Ghandi was rascist. You know the guy with the flip flops.
		
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Be a different story if he was wearing Crocs ðŸ˜†


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 18, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Anyway back on topic, even I was shocked to read that Ghandi was rascist. You know the guy with the flip flops.
		
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Like I said earlier, being racist is natural, as we are tribal. The most racist race I have ever met are Afro Carrabean. In my opinion there isn't anything wrong with being racist, it's being a racialist where the problems lie


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## Tashyboy (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Like I said earlier, being racist is natural, as we are tribal. The most racist race I have ever met are Afro Carrabean. In my opinion there isn't anything wrong with being racist, it's being a racialist where the problems lie
		
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Am not sure that being rascist is tribal, if we are " tribal" people we eat meat. And some of us don't. Think ignorance is more to do with it.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Like I said earlier, being racist is natural, as we are tribal. The most racist race I have ever met are Afro Carrabean. In my opinion there isn't anything wrong with being racist, it's being a racialist where the problems lie
		
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You're mixing racism with ethnicity. Being tribal is about ethnicity. Being racist is about being ignorant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2018)

drdel said:



			It should be possible for anyone to say what they like in private but in public it is necessary to have regard to society's norms, the audience and the context. What annoys me is those people who report or claim to be offended by something they overheard from a private non-public conversation.
		
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OK - but if someone said something to me in private that I found offensive or thought it might be offensive to others then I'd say so.  And I have done that.  It would however stay in the room.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You're mixing racism with ethnicity. Being tribal is about ethnicity. Being racist is about being ignorant.
		
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It is difficult to *not *notice an individual of an ethnic minority in our town in Surrey...though as you'd hope I think nothing further about that individual.  I have to admit, however, to feeling a teensy bit uncomfortable that I notice...I wish that I didn't.

I suspect that this comes from my Glasgow Southside posh suburb upbringing - when there was absolutely no ethnic minority community and none of any such minority at school.  We had a few Americans  - but even though they were a bit different we thought they were great as they had cool games and sports gear we didn't have - and they had basketball...


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You're mixing racism with ethnicity. Being tribal is about ethnicity. Being racist is about being ignorant.
		
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Clever wording, that actually means nothing


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - but if someone said something to me in private that I found offensive or thought it might be offensive to others then I'd say so.  And I have done that.  It would however stay in the room.
		
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Seriously, if you lived in my village, it would take you no more than a few minutes to be offended. Political correctness hasn't reached the Lincolnshire coast yet, and thank God for that !!


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## Dando (Dec 18, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Be a different story if he was wearing Crocs ðŸ˜†
		
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And socks!


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 18, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You really have spouted some rubbish at times on here.
		
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What I find sad is that for the last ten years of your army career you must of spent a great deal of time defending the religion and people who were responsible for so many deaths of British soldiers. I accept you were doing your job, and no doubt very well, it's just an ironic and sad situation I would of hated to have been in. The army and it's personnel have my utmost respect


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Seriously, if you lived in my village, it would take you no more than a few minutes to be offended. Political correctness hasn't reached the Lincolnshire coast yet, and thank God for that !!
		
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Well I am glad I don't live there


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			What I find sad is that for the last ten years of your army career you must of spent a great deal of time defending the religion and people who were responsible for so many deaths of British soldiers. I accept you were doing your job, and no doubt very well, it's just an ironic and sad situation I would of hated to have been in. The army and it's personnel have my utmost respect
		
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Can I ask you to send me a pm if you have any questions on my career.
Iâ€™m certainly not going to publicly discuss all I did or didnâ€™t do.
At the moment you are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.
Not sure if youâ€™re on a wind up or not, but if you have any genuine questions please send a msg.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Clever wording, that actually means nothing
		
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Yes itâ€™s such clever wording itâ€™s the definition, not my definition. But if you think youâ€™re above an official definition maybe you need to educate yourself. You know, â€œteaching old dogs new tricks.â€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2018)

Great interview with John Barnes today. Worth a watch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1074868958078083073


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Great interview with John Barnes today. Worth a watch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1074868958078083073

Click to expand...

I am surprised he can sit upright with that chip sat on his shoulder.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I am surprised he can sit upright with that chip sat on his shoulder.
		
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Is it worth asking you to research the racist abuse that he had to put up with in the past?  

Look, everyone has a right to express an opinion but if all you are going to do is pollute each thread with sub UKIP/BNP rhetoric, insinuations and slurs then could you give that angle a rest as it is just boring.  Congratulations, you have got a rise out of me and may be others , and if that is your intention then congratulate yourself on a job well done.  But god it makes you look like a sad individual at times and does nothing for the reputation of this forum if we end up going down this route on a lot of threads.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it worth asking you to research the racist abuse that he had to put up with in the past?

Look, everyone has a right to express an opinion but if all you are going to do is pollute each thread with sub UKIP/BNP rhetoric, insinuations and slurs then could you give that angle a rest as it is just boring.  Congratulations, you have got a rise out of me and may be others , and if that is your intention then congratulate yourself on a job well done.  But god it makes you look like a sad individual at times and does nothing for the reputation of this forum if we end up going down this route on a lot of threads.
		
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I shall ignore the insults and rise above them. Yes, he and all black players were abused many years ago. For what it is worth I am a season ticket holder at a premiership football club, and I haven't heard any racist abuse for a long long time. I also don't believe there is currently any racism in the British game. Those dark days are dead and buried, and it's time people like Barnes just got on with life.


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## User20205 (Dec 22, 2018)

Why are you on here if youâ€™re not going to post about golf? Surely youâ€™d be better off on a forum that reflects your specific views?
Re racism in football, have you been asleep for the last month?

Also....if there is no racism in modern English football surely that shows multi culturalism works, football fans are colour blind...make your mind up ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles has left the building, itâ€™s likely the door hit him in the backside on his way out ðŸ‘


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## IanM (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I am surprised he can sit upright with that chip sat on his shoulder.
		
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I saw a very young John Barnes play for Watford at Aldershot in Divison 4.  The abuse black players got back then was disgusting... ..thatâ€™s not a chip, itâ€™s a scar, a deep one.


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## IanM (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I also don't believe there is currently any racism in the British game. Those dark days are dead and buried, and it's time people like Barnes just got on with life.
		
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Been to Stamford Bridge much?


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

Is this racist ?, seeming people from Dubai don't like the Flintstones, but people from Abu dabi do.


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Is this racist ?, seeming people from Dubai don't like the Flintstones, but people from Abu dabi do.

Click to expand...

I would say You need to get out more but you can't..
But
You need to get out more


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

I D


Imurg said:



			I would say You need to get out more but you can't..
But
You need to get out more

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 I do I do I do I do I dooooooo, thats Abba dabi do


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 28, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Some people will see whatever they want to see or whatever suits their agenda.

All I see is a child dressing up as her hero. Anything else is BS.
		
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I totally agree with you.
But I know hypersensitive people who would not, and so, probably, do you.

In a way, I find it disturbing that with all the real problems that truly need cleaning up, we can distract ourselves by cultivating frivolous outrage over innocent things like this.


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 29, 2020)

Back in 1961 our primary school staged a concert, we all wore a white shirt blacked up face with boot polish, and white gloves, singing the Camptown Races.
So I'm a racist.
To be honest racism is a word and means used to often to stifle sensible debate, and can be a danger, as proved in the Rotherham child abuse and such.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Back in 1961 our primary school staged a concert, we all wore a white shirt blacked up face with boot polish, and white gloves, singing the Camptown Races.
So I'm a racist.
To be honest racism is a word and means used to often to stifle sensible debate, and can be a danger, as proved in the Rotherham child abuse and such.
		
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What do you mean, re the Rotherham case? You aren’t about to defend Tommy Robinson, are you?


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 29, 2020)

I see cabin fever is setting in 🧟‍♂️


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What do you mean, re the Rotherham case? You aren’t about to defend Tommy Robinson, are you?
		
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Maybe the fact the council refused to do anything despite overwhelming evidence.
Then There was the scumbag labour MP Naz Shah and her twitter account about it!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Back in 1961 our primary school staged a concert, we all wore a white shirt blacked up face with boot polish, and white gloves, singing the Camptown Races.
*So I'm a racist.*
To be honest racism is a word and means used to often to stifle sensible debate, and can be a danger, as proved in the Rotherham child abuse and such.
		
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Would you still black up now? If yes then you are slightly racist. If you would not and realise that what is acceptable in society changes over the years and people have to adapt so you change your behaviour, then you are not racist. Simples.


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What do you mean, re the Rotherham case? You aren’t about to defend Tommy Robinson, are you?
		
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You know exactly what I mean thousands of children suffered while police and social workers to they're eternal shame done nothing to afraid to be seen as racist.
If you are more upset with Robinson rather than the crimes of a vile bunch of vile peadophiles, that speaks volumes about you.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			You know exactly what I mean thousands of children suffered while police and social workers to they're eternal shame done nothing to afraid to be seen as racist.
If you are more upset with Robinson rather than the crimes of a vile bunch of vile peadophiles, that speaks volumes about you.
		
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Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.
		
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Where did he side and defend Tommy Robinson? You've made the accusation, now support it.


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.
		
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So someone states facts and he then supports Robinson? 😂🤣


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.
		
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One lesson I have learned in life, never assume anything.
Concerning child abuse I'll stay on the side of the innocent children, nothing to do with Robinson or any of his kind.


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## DaveR (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.
		
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Do you just come out with crap to provoke people?


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Do you just come out with crap to provoke people?
		
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You must be a new member to be asking that 😂


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 29, 2020)

Ok Timeout guys

Kellfire, wind your neck in, you are way out of line here and barking up the wrong tree big time.

Dando, call anyone that again on here and it’s points, 

Making some allowances as it’s a difficult time for us all, but don’t push the Mod

This has been a public service announcement 👍


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok Timeout guys

Kellfire, wind your neck in, you are way out of line here and barking up the wrong tree big time.

Dando, call anyone that again on here and it’s points,

Making some allowances as it’s a difficult time for us all, but don’t push the Mod

This has been a public service announcement 👍
		
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Pussy 😂


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2020)

If I misread the subtext then I do apologise, I’ve just seen so many UKIP/BNP types use those sexual abuse cases to push their agenda as if the British government/authorities would rather allow sexual abuse than potentially offend a religious minority.


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok Timeout guys

Kellfire, wind your neck in, you are way out of line here and barking up the wrong tree big time.

Dando, call anyone that again on here and it’s points,

Making some allowances as it’s a difficult time for us all, but don’t push the Mod

This has been a public service announcement 👍
		
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Not going to apologise Phil as the guy adds nothing but just likes to be controversial


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 29, 2020)

Dando said:



			Not going to apologise Phil as the guy adds nothing but just likes to be controversial
		
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Not after an apology James, just stop giving me more work to do, please


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not after an apology James, just stop giving me more work to do, please
		
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We don’t want you getting bored!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 29, 2020)

Now where did i put my BAN HAMMER ?


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2020)

Dando said:



			Not going to apologise Phil as the guy adds nothing but just likes to be controversial
		
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If you think being anti-Tommy Robinson is controversial then I think you need to reassess your logic.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If you think being anti-Tommy Robinson is controversial then I think you need to reassess your logic.
		
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Think he’s looking at the bigger picture & the way that you like to be controversial & argue to the toss at every opportunity.
Craving attention maybe?


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Think he’s looking at the bigger picture & the way that you like to be controversial & argue to the toss at every opportunity.
Craving attention maybe?
		
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 Yet you’re the one sensationalising things by saying I like to “be controversial & argue to the toss at every opportunity”. Be a bit more introspect.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yet you’re the one sensationalising things by saying I like to “be controversial & argue to the toss at every opportunity”. Be a bit more introspect.
		
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I think it just exploded , is there a face palm emoji?

If you can’t take it back, don’t dish it out in the first place.


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## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 29541

I think it just exploded , is there a face palm emoji?

If you can’t take it back, don’t dish it out in the first place.
		
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No but there’s a clown one that will do the job


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 29541

I think it just exploded , is there a face palm emoji?

If you can’t take it back, don’t dish it out in the first place.
		
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Oh I can take it where it’s warranted. But when someone’s wrongly point scoring from rape... erm.


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh I can take it where it’s warranted. But when someone’s wrongly point scoring from rape... erm.
		
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The only one that's reading that into this.


Kellfire said:



			Yea, as I assumed. You side with Robinson. Ugh.
		
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For me, this reads like "If you ain't for us, you're agin us".


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			The only one that's reading that into this.

For me, this reads like "If you ain't for us, you're agin us".
		
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I explained why I took this view.


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I explained why I took this view.
		
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An explanation isn't the same as a justification.  Perhaps you should consider before you post.


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## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I explained why I took this view.
		
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read the report into the Rotherham scandal where staff were too scared to say anything in fear of being called racist


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

Dando said:



			read the report into the Rotherham scandal where staff were too scared to say anything in fear of being called racist
		
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 People being stupid or negligent is not the same as a government cover up to  covertly ease in Sharia Law which is how the likes of Tommy and the boys spin it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			An explanation isn't the same as a justification.  Perhaps you should consider before you post.
		
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Perhaps you should consider that it’s ok to differing views and that being challenged on isn’t always a bad thing. I don’t slink out of these threads feeling all offended by what people say.


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## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			People being stupid or negligent is not the same as a government cover up to  covertly ease in Sharia Law which is how the likes of Tommy and the boys spin it.
		
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there was a council cover up


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Perhaps you should consider that it’s ok to differing views and that being challenged on isn’t always a bad thing. I don’t slink out of these threads feeling all offended by what people say.
		
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Anyone who knows me will tell you I look at all opposing views, often to the frustration of my missus,  I just consider all the options first before posting and leaping to conclusions.


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

Dando said:



			there was a council cover up
		
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And was it found they were trying to install Sharia Law?


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## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			And was it found they were trying to install Sharia Law?
		
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the report had nothing to do with Sharia Law it was about the abuse of schoolgirls that the Labour Council ignored as they didn't want to be seen as racist


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