# Kippers



## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

UKIP have been in the forefront of the news again this week with Douglas Carswel defecting to them from the Conservatives.

Are they swivel eyed loons, fruitcakes and closet racists or an up and coming power to be reckoned with?   Do their policies strike a chord with a great number of people in the country who feel no one listens to them or will actually change anything?

Lets try and have a constructive debate on it and hopefully with some detailed subject matter above one liner soundbites!


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## User20205 (Aug 30, 2014)

I quite like Nigel Farage, I think he's one of the most capable politicians in British politics.

There is no chance I'd vote for him or his party. I absolutely disagree with ukips policy on Europe. Simplistically I think we are stronger as part of a trading block. I read somewhere recently that if the UK was a US state, we would be the second poorest behind Alabama!!

That to me sums  up our place in the world . 

Also it will always be the party of nutcases like Godfrey Bloom. 

It will always attract the 'idiot' fringe.

That said, they have a roll to play in the next election , both labour and the Tories will attempt to stop hemoraging voters to UKIP, and that may make for some interesting manifestos


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 30, 2014)

Some say Carswell wasn't going anywhere in the Tory hierarchy , in which case he is a loser trying to scrabble for self preservation , others say he was a rising future star which is very different .

From what I can see ukip is predominately concerned with our position in Europe , I havnt seen anything relating to the uk economy, health service, education etc
They come across as a 1 message party and if they want to be taken seriously , they need to start putting their domestic agenda across


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Some say Carswell wasn't going anywhere in the Tory hierarchy , in which case he is a loser trying to scrabble for self preservation , others say he was a rising future star which is very different .

From what I can see ukip is predominately concerned with our position in Europe , I havnt seen anything relating to the uk economy, health service, education etc
They come across as a 1 message party and if they want to be taken seriously , they need to start putting their domestic agenda across
		
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Here are some of them Fragger:

http://www.ukip.org/issues

I think they do try to get these things across but the generally held opinion is they are a one trick pony.   Maybe the popular press want it that way.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 30, 2014)

Quick read = looks good in principal especially the binning of HS2 ( saving my course) 
How are they going to pay for it all ?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Quick read = looks good in principal especially the binning of HS2 ( saving my course) 
How are they going to pay for it all ?
		
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Well for a start by saving Â£55 Million a day in EU fees and scrapping HS2 pays for it's self.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2014)

Well al be the first to say they will get my vote.

can remember my dad during the miners strike of 1984 saying there is no difference between labour and the Tories. God how I laughed. 30 years later I tell my son the same thing.

thank god we have a royal family coz president thatcher, Blair, Major, Cameron would cut me to the bone and president clegg lets not even go there. 

UKIP well deffo upset the apple cart at next election to what extent we will see, but I can see them doing better than the liberals with Clegg nut being left in the wilderness.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 30, 2014)

Yup think the lib dems are a spent force now
I can see ukip splitting the labour and Tory vote and getting a foothold, wouldn't be surprised at all


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 30, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yup think the lib dems are a spent force now
I can see ukip splitting the labour and Tory vote and getting a foothold, wouldn't be surprised at all
		
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I can see them making some gains next year. Whether they'll be a force in years to come is dubious.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2014)

As much has Farage has quiet a positive effect on UKIP. The damage that Clegg has done for the Liberals for me is immense. Come what may UKIP will take votes of all three party's.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

therod said:



			I quite like Nigel Farage, I think he's one of the most capable politicians in British politics.

There is no chance I'd vote for him or his party. I absolutely disagree with ukips policy on Europe. Simplistically I think we are stronger as part of a trading block. I read somewhere recently that if the UK was a US state, we would be the second poorest behind Alabama!!

*That to me sums  up our place in the world .* 

Also it will always be the party of nutcases like Godfrey Bloom. 

It will always attract the 'idiot' fringe.

That said, they have a roll to play in the next election , both labour and the Tories will attempt to stop hemoraging voters to UKIP, and that may make for some interesting manifestos
		
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I believe Britain has the 4th largest economy in the World.


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## User20205 (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe Britain has the 4th largest economy in the World.
		
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My mistake, Mississippi :thup:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mississippi-if-it-joined-america-9693240.html


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can see them making some gains next year. Whether they'll be a force in years to come is dubious.
		
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I think that depends on weather the other parties will start listening to what so many peoples concerns are and be prepared to act; rather than promise, rater than believing they know better.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

therod said:



			My mistake, Mississippi :thup:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mississippi-if-it-joined-america-9693240.html

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But isn't that is without the South East.   I think we still have it


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## User20205 (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			But that is without the South East.   I think we still have it 

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It includes the SE, without it we'd be worst off than Mississippi! Sounds like an argument to stay in a trading block to me.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

therod said:



			It includes the SE, without it we'd be worst off than Mississippi! Sounds like an argument to stay in a trading block to me.
		
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I think it a complete myth that if we left the EU we would lose all our trade with it.   We currently trade at a deficit so the EU would lose one of its largest markets bringing a big increase in unemployment.

Our position as a US State is not really important as it wont happen.   We are still the Worlds 4th largest economy and as such quite capable of surviving, especially without our current restrictions n trade agreements.


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## rosecott (Aug 30, 2014)

May I introduce some common sense into the debate?

Last week I purchased two packs of Tesco kippers.

I had one of them on Wednesday for lunch with some fresh wholemeal bread and put the other one in the freezer.

PS

Yes - I've been on the red.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

They certainly won't get many female voters with some of the garbage about them they have come out with


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 30, 2014)

rosecott said:



			May I introduce some common sense into the debate?

Last week I purchased two packs of Tesco kippers.

I had one of them on Wednesday for lunch with some fresh wholemeal bread and put the other one in the freezer.
		
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Infraction for being "on topic"
Ok that's a joke


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They certainly won't get many female voters with some of the garbage about them they have come out with
		
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Are these party policies or something someone said?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

Policies


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Policies
		
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Please can you show us what you are referring to?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

2. Maternity pay? Who needs it! UKIP would scrap the right to maternity leave for women working for small businesses.

Section 3.2 of the same small business manifesto says:

â€œThe EU is responsible for a great deal of UK employment legislation.  A good example of excessive EU regulation is proposals for 'longer and better maternity leave'...

...UKIP proposes to vastly simplify this legislation.  It would be up to each employer to decide whether to offer parental leave and this would be one of the items included in the standard employment contract (see above). An SME which refuses to offer parental leave will either have to offer young women higher salaries than other businesses which offer a long leave period or they will simply have to recruit from a smaller pool of potential employees.â€

While theyâ€™re at it, theyâ€™re also going to scrap Statutory Maternity Pay (currently worth Â£136.78 a week) and replace it with a stay-at-home allowance of just Â£64 a week.

â€œUKIP is in favour of simplifying the welfare system and reducing wasteful bureaucracy. Rather than playing the â€˜money-go-roundâ€™ with the attendant administrative burden, UKIP would abolish SMP entirely and simply allow parents who stay at home with their children to claim a weekly parental allowance set at the same level as the Basic Cash Benefit proposed in our welfare policy (in other words, around Â£64 per week for parents aged 25 and above) regardless of how long they are off work and regardless of the other spouseâ€™s income.â€


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

Will also add in they would like paid holiday scrapped also 

As well as sick pay , overtime , redundancy also


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			2. Maternity pay? Who needs it! UKIP would scrap the right to maternity leave for women working for small businesses.

Section 3.2 of the same small business manifesto says:

â€œThe EU is responsible for a great deal of UK employment legislation.  A good example of excessive EU regulation is proposals for 'longer and better maternity leave'...

...UKIP proposes to vastly simplify this legislation.  It would be up to each employer to decide whether to offer parental leave and this would be one of the items included in the standard employment contract (see above). An SME which refuses to offer parental leave will either have to offer young women higher salaries than other businesses which offer a long leave period or they will simply have to recruit from a smaller pool of potential employees.â€

While theyâ€™re at it, theyâ€™re also going to scrap Statutory Maternity Pay (currently worth Â£136.78 a week) and replace it with a stay-at-home allowance of just Â£64 a week.

â€œUKIP is in favour of simplifying the welfare system and reducing wasteful bureaucracy. Rather than playing the â€˜money-go-roundâ€™ with the attendant administrative burden, UKIP would abolish SMP entirely and simply allow parents who stay at home with their children to claim a weekly parental allowance set at the same level as the Basic Cash Benefit proposed in our welfare policy (in other words, around Â£64 per week for parents aged 25 and above) regardless of how long they are off work and regardless of the other spouseâ€™s income.â€
		
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Dont see much wrong with that.  IMO people need to take more responsibility for their actions and not rely on the State/Tax payer to support their lifestyle decisions.  We need to start discouraging population increase.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will also add in they would like paid holiday scrapped also 

As well as sick pay , overtime , redundancy also
		
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Evidence please!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont see much wrong with that.  IMO people need to take more responsibility for their actions and not rely on the State/Tax payer to support their lifestyle decisions.
		
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I have no doubt you don't see much wrong it 

But I expect a very high percentage of the female population will see a great deal wrong with hence why I dont expect UKIP will get many female voters 

In fact when it comes to the General Elections I believe they will get very minimal votes and no MP's in parliament and will carry on being insignificant 

Thankfully the majority of the UK population will not vote for them I believe


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Evidence please!
		
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5. Paid holiday? Scrapped. UKIP would scrap your legal right to four weeksâ€™ paid holiday.

We get our legal right to four weeksâ€™ paid leave from European Law (along with a host of other rights). UKIP would withdraw from the EU, and leave us without this Europe-wide guarantee of four weeksâ€™ paid leave.

If thatâ€™s not clear enough, they helpfully spell it out in section 3.1 of their small business manifesto:

â€œUKIP would put an end to most legislation regarding matters such as weekly working hours, holidays and holiday, overtime, redundancy or sick pay etc. and provide a statutory, standard, very short employment contract template.â€


Oh also believe in their business manifesto they want to scrap the equality legislation which would mean bosses could pay females less for doing  the same work as men


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no doubt you don't see much wrong it 

But I expect a very high percentage of the female population will see a great deal wrong with hence why I dont expect UKIP will get many female voters 

In fact when it comes to the General Elections I believe they will get very minimal votes and no MP's in parliament and will carry on being insignificant 

Thankfully the majority of the UK population will not vote for them I believe
		
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Wasn't the case in the EU elections and probably wont be in the General Election.    I get the feeling from people I know that there is a great deal of support for them and it's growing fast.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasn't the case in the EU elections and probably wont be in the General Election.    I get the feeling from people I know that there is a great deal of support for them and it's growing fast.
		
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Yet not long after that when it came to local elections they were unable to gain control of any councils ?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet not long after that when it came to local elections they were unable to gain control of any councils ?
		
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Not yet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Not yet.
		
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So do you not think on the back of the Euro elections they would have progressed but they gained control over none - nothing - people didn't want the party controlling their council - speaks volumes. 

Even when the country didn't really know who they wanted in the last election - UKIP got no MP's - none , zilch , nada


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## User20205 (Aug 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont see much wrong with that.  IMO people need to take more responsibility for their actions and not rely on the State/Tax payer to support their lifestyle decisions.  We need to start discouraging population increase.
		
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This demonstrates why they're unelectable. They (and you) would advocate penalising pregnacy by abolishing maternity pay
Rather than caring for the most vunerable in society they'd rather punish them. Rather than providing for the next generation they'd rather 'manage' population increase 

Seems a bit myopic to me. If you take that to an extreme, and discourage families surely you'd be left with an ageing population that rely on an immigrant workforce

Surely you wouldn't advocate that?


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## Khamelion (Aug 30, 2014)

How many people actually read the parties manifestos? I mean all of them cover to cover to find out which party best suits the needs of the individual reading it.

I would reckon a good percentage don't bother and get their opinion from what the media and papers publish, then if they can be bothered to vote they choose a box to put the cross in on the day.

Of those that are left some will read the parts of the parties policies based around their own needs and interests, but not get an overall picture of how each party will affect the country, but will vote on their own individual needs.

Those that are left will be the ones that read the manifestos cover to cover and choose who to vote for based on sounds knowledge that they know what each party will do should they get elected.

For me, I voted once when I turned 18, why? Because I could, did it make any difference? Not really, the area I live in is Labour, has been labour since I was born and most likely will remain labour for a long time to come.

Why haven't I voted since? Well colour my cynical, but ALL politicians are nothing but educated idiots, who quite happily pay lip service to the populous to curry favour and get votes. They are all as bad as each other.

When my uncle was alive, he and my dad would chew the at and inevitably conversation would turn to current affairs and politics, to which my dad would say "This is a stupid country we live in", my uncle would reply "No, this is a great country e live in, it's just run by stupid people", never a truer word spoken.


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## Khamelion (Aug 30, 2014)

therod said:



			This demonstrates why they're unelectable. They (and you) would advocate penalising pregnacy by abolishing maternity pay
Rather than caring for the most vunerable in society they'd rather punish them. Rather than providing for the next generation they'd rather 'manage' population increase 

Seems a bit myopic to me. If you take that to an extreme, and discourage families surely you'd be left with an ageing population that rely on an immigrant workforce

Surely you wouldn't advocate that?
		
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Most people probably wouldn't but as I've just written in post #36, the majority of people won't read UKIP's entire manifesto and will vote based upon one or two topics that fits their own requirements.

People may vote for UKIP based on their European policy, not their maternity one.


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## Iaing (Aug 30, 2014)

A bunch of nutters.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

therod said:



			This demonstrates why they're unelectable. They (and you) would advocate penalising pregnacy by abolishing maternity pay
Rather than caring for the most vunerable in society they'd rather punish them. Rather than providing for the next generation they'd rather 'manage' population increase 

Seems a bit myopic to me. If you take that to an extreme, and discourage families surely you'd be left with an ageing population that rely on an immigrant workforce

Surely you wouldn't advocate that?
		
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Where did I say anything about abolition of Maternity Pay.   Paternity pay is more of an issue with me and keeping the costs under control to an extent that we do not encourage child birth as a main revenue source.

Do you not have concerns for population growth, it's effect on public services and how it can be funded.   I cant see how encouraging people to have more children than they can afford to care for is of great benefit to society, who exactly should fund the cost of raising children? (Please don't say the Government)

Most people will grow old and that includes new born and immigrants, they will add to the ageing population and if you have a policy to fund this by higher birth rates and immigrants then you will need an exponential number which is absolute stupidity.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2014)

Iaing said:



			A bunch of nutters.
		
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Of course!


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			It includes the SE, without it we'd be worst off than Mississippi! Sounds like an argument to stay in a trading block to me.
		
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Or, pull out. Sort immigration as it was based on GDP and we'd be splitting our wealth with fewer numbers and increase our GDP and ranking in said list.......?


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They certainly won't get many female voters with some of the garbage about them they have come out with
		
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Theyll get plenty, having been back home in my local estate pub. You could prove to half the goers that they had said all women should live in a kitchen and know there place is there and upstairs and they'd still vote for them coz of the "bloody foreigners".


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			This demonstrates why they're unelectable. They (and you) would advocate penalising pregnacy by abolishing maternity pay
Rather than caring for the most vunerable in society they'd rather punish them. Rather than providing for the next generation they'd rather 'manage' population increase 

Seems a bit myopic to me. If you take that to an extreme, and discourage families surely you'd be left with an ageing population that rely on an immigrant workforce

Surely you wouldn't advocate that?
		
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i personally believe some some major reform of benefits is required. Take child benefit for example. EVERYONE gets the Â£80 a month it is. Surely the majority shouldn't be needing that. How many millions are paid out with that that aren't required. If they scraped that, and genuinely inky those in need got the help. How much would it save? 

Paternity pay too. I don't know many that even bother taking it. Blokes generally just store a bit if extra holiday and take it, as it's not much help taking 6 weeks if if it's Â£124 a week. I'm in no way advocating ukip as I think their policies are nothing more than sound bites with no real financial consideration.  but I do believe that common sense needs to be well, more commonly used!


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe Britain has the 4th largest economy in the World.
		
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Er...Try 6th!

http://knoema.com/nwnfkne/world-gdp-ranking-2014-data-and-charts


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## User20205 (Aug 31, 2014)

So to paraphrase, they appeal to a voter who wants to reduce employment rights, keep women in the kitchen, implement population control and 'sort out' immigration. Maybe those that advocate could expand on 'sorting out' immigration and controlling the birth rate, what would you/they do specifically? 

The benefits argument is a smoke screen, that obviously needs reform and unless you've been asleep for 6 years, the mainstream parties have been undertaking this.

We're talking about a fundamental reduction in employment rights, paid holiday, maternity etc, that's what ukip would take from you. 

Also, those that advocate leaving the EU, do you also support Scottish independence?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2014)

I think the Kippers main support is from people who use the phrase 'not like us' a lot.


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## User20205 (Aug 31, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the Kippers main support is from people who use the phrase 'not like us' a lot.
		
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Very true. It's the politics of fear packaged more acceptably than some other parties.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			So to paraphrase, they appeal to a voter who wants to reduce employment rights, keep women in the kitchen, implement population control and 'sort out' immigration. Maybe those that advocate could expand on 'sorting out' immigration and controlling the birth rate, what would you/they do specifically? 

The benefits argument is a smoke screen, that obviously needs reform and unless you've been asleep for 6 years, the mainstream parties have been undertaking this.

We're talking about a fundamental reduction in employment rights, paid holiday, maternity etc, that's what ukip would take from you. 

*Also, those that advocate leaving the EU, do you also support Scottish independence?*

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Personally I'd love us to leave the EU, purely as my career path would lead to massive financial gains. Whilst there are benefits to the trade agreements we share, i don't personally believe that that all our legislation should be decided for us.


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## User20205 (Aug 31, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Personally I'd love us to leave the EU, purely as my career path would lead to massive financial gains. Whilst there are benefits to the trade agreements we share, i don't personally believe that that all our legislation should be decided for us.
		
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What is it you do that would benefit from no EU membership? (Genuinely interested)


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			What is it you do that would benefit from no EU membership? (Genuinely interested)
		
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Freight forwarding and customs clearance. As the EU gets bigger our client base gets smaller. Therefore less people now have the experience I (and others doing my job have). If the borders closed and clearance was needed, we could literally print money. Our company already have us on contracts stating any pull out of the EU and they would be willing to increase wages 40% if we stay for at least one year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Freight forwarding and customs clearance. As the EU gets bigger our client base gets smaller. Therefore less people now have the experience I (and others doing my job have). If the borders closed and clearance was needed, we could literally print money. Our company already have us on contracts stating any pull out of the EU and they would be willing to increase wages 40% if we stay for at least one year.
		
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So who pays the money for the clearance ? Do they out number the people who will gain from closed borders ?


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So who pays the money for the clearance ? Do they out number the people who will gain from closed borders ?
		
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If you read all my posts, I said pulling out would benefit ME. I didn't say i support Ukip as thy're policies are unsustainable imo.

But the people that pay it are pretty much any company bringing goods in from outside the eu currently, or exporting goods to outside the eu. Been as we import more than anyone else, the business i'm in would grow exponentially, of course the additional costs to these companies would be passed onto the customers (all of us) . So as i say, would be unsustainable imo.


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## Imurg (Aug 31, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yup think the lib dems are a spent force now
I can see ukip splitting the labour and Tory vote and getting a foothold, wouldn't be surprised at all
		
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I can see very low turn-outs in some places.
Many don't want to vote Labour or Tory so see the Lib-Dems as an alternative.
Since they sold their collective souls to Cameron, a large slice of Lib-Dem voters may wonder who they can actually vote for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			If you read all my posts, I said pulling out would benefit ME. I didn't say i support Ukip as thy're policies are unsustainable imo.

But the people that pay it are pretty much any company bringing goods in from outside the eu currently, or exporting goods to outside the eu. Been as we import more than anyone else, the business i'm in would grow exponentially, of course the additional costs to these companies would be passed onto the customers (all of us) . So as i say, would be unsustainable imo.
		
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And possibly companies pulling out from trading within the uk which would mean you would get less companies coming through customs clearance which would mean your company would suffer

Closing borders off to the continent will never seem a good idea for me


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## User20205 (Aug 31, 2014)

```

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Papas1982 said:



			Freight forwarding and customs clearance. As the EU gets bigger our client base gets smaller. Therefore less people now have the experience I (and others doing my job have). If the borders closed and clearance was needed, we could literally print money. Our company already have us on contracts stating any pull out of the EU and they would be willing to increase wages 40% if we stay for at least one year.
		
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Thanks for sharing. :thup:

I can see how you'd benefit from more border control. Obviously there would be individual circumstance where being out is better, but generally I be reluctant to give up certain rights EU law gives me as an employee.

I also reckon you can't be in selectively, maybe I'm a proper European federalist


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And possibly companies pulling out from trading within the uk which would mean you would get less companies coming through customs clearance which would mean your company would suffer

Closing borders off to the continent will never seem a good idea for me
		
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Phil wherever the company is based, be that the uk or Venezuela, when the goods come to the uk, Taxes most be paid. We arrange this process, so we would still be paid. The uk doesn't produce anywhere near what it needs. So we woudl still be paid and not suffer in the slightest. The company and business flourished before the borders opened up and would only improve and grow if they reopened. As i have said, i don't believe it is the thing to do. I simply mentioned that financially *I WOULD *be much better off.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			Thanks for sharing. :thup:

I can see how you'd benefit from more border control. Obviously there would be individual circumstance where being out is better, but generally I be reluctant to give up certain rights EU law gives me as an employee.

I also reckon you can't be in selectively, maybe I'm a proper European federalist 

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I generally agree that the majority are better off in the eu. I just find it frustrating that we do seem to be the soft touch when it comes to certain policies. Having grown up in a pretty poor estate I've seen plenty of people struggle for work. But i still see many more fiddle the system than survive because of it.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



*So to paraphrase, they appeal to a voter who wants to reduce employment rights, keep women in the kitchen, implement population control and 'sort out' immigration. Maybe those that advocate could expand on 'sorting out' immigration and controlling the birth rate, what would you/they do specifically? *

The benefits argument is a smoke screen, that obviously needs reform and unless you've been asleep for 6 years, the mainstream parties have been undertaking this.

We're talking about a fundamental reduction in employment rights, paid holiday, maternity etc, that's what ukip would take from you. 

Also, those that advocate leaving the EU, do you also support Scottish independence?
		
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That is an exaggeration and you know it!   Population control and immigration are major issues that are beyond flippancy.  Did you see the net migration figures released this week.   We allowed 250,000 more people into the country last year than people leaving.   Please tell me how this is sustainable?


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:




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I also reckon you can't be in selectively, maybe I'm a proper European federalist 

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All depends on what you mean by the term 'Federalist'! It seems to me that it has as much variation as the term 'Democracy'!


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## User20205 (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			That is an exaggeration and you know it!   Population control and immigration are major issues that are beyond flippancy.  Did you see the net migration figures released this week.   We allowed 250,000 more people into the country last year than people leaving.   Please tell me how this is sustainable?
		
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It's not long term. I'm all for managed immigration, that doesn't mean I'm living in fear of the Bulgarian bogey man who wants to steal my job/house/wife/kids/cat etc etc. 

How much of the net immigration is from the EU, how much from outside?? I don't know?

Is it a coincidence that Western Europe has been at peace (with each other) since the advent of the common market and what it has become?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			That is an exaggeration and you know it!   Population control and immigration are major issues that are beyond flippancy.  Did you see the net migration figures released this week.   We allowed 250,000 more people into the country last year than people leaving.   Please tell me how this is sustainable?
		
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I think that depends where you live.
My wife has friends and relatives in Kent, Hamps and Essex. I gather that nearly all are not too keen on jonny foreigner.

Up here in Scotland, especially in the Highlands there is a shortage of labour and we welcome anyone who will fill the skills gap.
The Scottish population has risen by 300,000+ over recent years and the jobs market appears to still be rising and unemployment falling.

Salmond recently went on record praising the Polish and Eastern European immigrants for their hard work and industry.
If they are replacing the small number of Scottish work shy, Buckfast swilling Jakeys then the more the merrier IMO.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that depends where you live.
My wife has friends and relatives in Kent, Hamps and Essex. I gather that nearly all are not too keen on jonny foreigner.

Up here in Scotland, especially in the Highlands there is a shortage of labour and we welcome anyone who will fill the skills gap.
The Scottish population has risen by 300,000+ over recent years and the jobs market appears to still be rising and unemployment falling.

Salmond recently went on record praising the Polish and Eastern European immigrants for their hard work and industry.
If they are replacing the small number of Scottish work shy, Buckfast swilling Jakeys then the more the merrier IMO.
		
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You cant really look at it in isolation.  There has probably not been a great increase in the population of Chipping Campden but that belies the overall situation.     I cant see that the answer to work shy Brits is to put them on indefinite benefits bring in people from abroad who are happy to work for low wages.   Even you must be aware of the strain on public services away from your Hamlet.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

therod said:



			It's not long term. I'm all for managed immigration, that doesn't mean I'm living in fear of the Bulgarian bogey man who wants to steal my job/house/wife/kids/cat etc etc. 

How much of the net immigration is from the EU, how much from outside?? I don't know?

Is it a coincidence that Western Europe has been at peace (with each other) since the advent of the common market and what it has become?
		
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The peace is not a coincidence and not really related to the EU.   The peace in western Europe has been related more to the threat of the east during the cold war and the influence of Nato IMO.

Managed immigration is what UKUP are promoting, it's the sensible option.  The Bulgarian bogy man is just another exaggeration.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You cant really look at it in isolation.
		
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But that's exactly what the Kippers are doing!

2 or 3 emotive issues and nothing about anything else - such as the huge benefits for UK Business of being in the EU/EFTA!

To me, they are only half a step away from the BNP!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

The problem is getting those work shy people to actually get of their backsides and do the jobs that a lot of immigrants over here are more than willing to do - a great deal of people that arrive in this country actually appear to contribute to our society and knuckle down and work and pay taxes etc.

There is i reckon prob a great deal of Brits sat on benefits with no intention of getting of their backside - thats a benefit problem as opposed to immigrants arriving into the country.

Yes we do need to not give out benefits on immigrants who arrive just to sponge - but we also need to get Brits to stop sponging as well.

I believe anyone should be welcome into this country if they are intending to contribute to our society or they need relief from war torn countries where people are commiting awful crimes against humanity.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You cant really look at it in isolation.  There has probably not been a great increase in the population of Chipping Campden but that belies the overall situation.     I cant see that the answer to work shy Brits is to put them on indefinite benefits bring in people from abroad who are happy to work for low wages.   Even you must be aware of the strain on public services away from your Hamlet.
		
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But they are not working for low wages, and they are paying tax.
Many have started their own businesses and are now employing Scots.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

I read today (and not in the mail) that a  current poll has given UKIP a 44 point swing in the up coming bi election, the largest swing recorded.   I guess some here will put that down to the ignorant unwashed not understanding what the issues.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/31/uk-britain-politicis-ukip-idUKKBN0GV0BH20140831


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## CMAC (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



*I think that depends on weather* the other parties will start listening to what so many peoples concerns are and be prepared to act; rather than promise, rater than believing they know better.
		
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whats the weather got to do with it?


As for them getting MP's in next election, not a snowballs chance no matter what polls show about them gaining interest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I read today (and not in the mail) that a  current poll has given UKIP a 40 point swing in the up coming bi election, the largest swing recorded.   I guess some here will put that down to the ignorant unwashed not understanding what the issues.
		
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Is that not in Clacton and where the MP has deflected from Tory to UKIP ?

So the voters are following the person


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that not in Clacton and where the MP has deflected from Tory to UKIP ?

So the voters are following the person
		
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I dont believe they are.   I think people think the current conservative leaders don't believe in conservatism and will vote for someone who does.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont believe they are.   I think people think the current conservative leaders don't believe in conservatism and will vote for someone who does.
		
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Off course you dont believe they are - what was the count before the deflection ? Believe UKIP had a 3% with the Torys around 60% 

Tory MP deflects and they expect people to follow the name - as it will get closer the points difference will be a lot closer. 

If he defected to Labour the same thing would have happened.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The problem is getting those work shy people to actually get of their backsides and do the jobs that a lot of immigrants over here are more than willing to do - a great deal of people that arrive in this country actually appear to contribute to our society and knuckle down and work and pay taxes etc.

There is i reckon prob a great deal of Brits sat on benefits with no intention of getting of their backside - thats a benefit problem as opposed to immigrants arriving into the country.

Yes we do need to not give out benefits on immigrants who arrive just to sponge - but we also need to get Brits to stop sponging as well.

I believe anyone should be welcome into this country if they are intending to contribute to our society or they need relief from war torn countries where people are commiting awful crimes against humanity.
		
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I agree with that.   I also think managed immigration more like the Australian model id the right way.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Off course you dont believe they are - what was the count before the deflection ? Believe UKIP had a 3% with the Torys around 60% 

Tory MP deflects and they expect people to follow the name - as it will get closer the points difference will be a lot closer. 

If he defected to Labour the same thing would have happened.
		
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OK, i take your point but we shall see.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			But that's exactly what the Kippers are doing!

2 or 3 emotive issues and nothing about anything else - such as the huge benefits for UK Business of being in the EU/EFTA!

To me, they are only half a step away from the BNP!
		
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Please go to their web site, read their policies and then comment on them.   Judging by your post I don't think you have done that.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 31, 2014)

Thread tidied, couple of posts binned

Keep it nice guys


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread tidied, couple of posts binned

Keep it nice guys 

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It had been going too well for too long!! Some very interesting pieces on here though and a good thread and read


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It had been going too well for too long!! Some very interesting pieces on here though and a good thread and read
		
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Agree. lets keep it that way :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

There have been a number of quotes on UKIP's policy, I am not sure what sources they come from.   This link outlines their general policy.   I have to say I tend to agree with them and their sentiment.

http://www.ukip.org/issues


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Try 6th!

http://knoema.com/nwnfkne/world-gdp-ranking-2014-data-and-charts

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Yes, I did make a mistake there.  We are the 4th largest exporter and importer and 6th largest economy.   Apologies.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2014)

Very strange but my very first post was not "hello everyone I'm a newbie" but what to people think re immigration. God how I got slated by some on here.

but I was genuinely interested in people thoughts in the same way that this Kippers post has become majorly immigration based.

How do we deal with immigration. How do the parties that have opened the door and left it locked open deal with it. I will vote UKIP but don't know how they will deal with it. But I do know that they are the only party that have said that they will.

fragger thanks for tidying up the thread coz this can run on and on and I hope a few clowns don't get it blocked.

ps boys and girls don't get personal either.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I did make a mistake there.  We are the 4th largest exporter and importer and 6th largest economy.   Apologies.
		
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On the face of it, those rankings look 'reasonable'. However, what they mean (and the figures don't match years, but are pretty close) is that UK is actually running the 2nd largest Balance of Trade deficit, both in value ($93 Trillion) and rate (about $2.5 Billion/month!)!

Anything that adds additional costs to either exports (causing fewer sales) or imports (higher prices => greater deficit) should be of great concern! And the isolationism that is the Kippers 'solution' will definitely increase costs - as demonstrated by the additional costs Papas mentioned, and there's a huge issue with timeliness with Border negotiation also.

So while I believe the EU is occasionally too centralist and dogged by unauditable policies and fraud, I believe that, overall, it's a good thing for UK!

And having Kippers campaigning for the No/BT side of the Scottish Independence strikes me as rather, if not the epitome of, hypocritical!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			On the face of it, those rankings look 'reasonable'. However, what they mean (and the figures don't match years, but are pretty close) is that UK is actually running the 2nd largest Balance of Trade deficit, both in value ($93 Trillion) and rate (about $2.5 Billion/month!)!

Anything that adds additional costs to either exports (causing fewer sales) or imports (higher prices => greater deficit) should be of great concern! And the isolationism that is the Kippers 'solution' will definitely increase costs - as demonstrated by the additional costs Papas mentioned, and there's a huge issue with timeliness with Border negotiation also.

So while I believe the EU is occasionally too centralist and dogged by unauditable policies and fraud, I believe that, overall, it's a good thing for UK!

And having Kippers campaigning for the No/BT side of the Scottish Independence strikes me as rather, if not the epitome of, hypocritical!
		
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To quote UKIP

"â€¢ Free trade, but not political union, with our European neighbours. We are the EUâ€™s largest export market: they depend on us for jobs - not the other way around."

They also suggest that we can boost trade by having the freedom to open trade agreements wherever we can.   Just imagine how we could better spend Â£55 million a day, we could create a much better health service, pay our old people decent pensions, boost manufacturing etc etc.

I cannot see any way that the EU would not want to sell their goods to their biggest market, it would be a disaster for them not to.
I'm not afraid that we are good enough to stand up for our selves, currently so much is being smothered by the EU state.   Today for example they have decided what power we can use in our vacuum cleaners.


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## CMAC (Aug 31, 2014)

It would be suicide to leave and anyone or party that thinks Britain can stand alone these days is naive. Just as naive as thinking if we werent there we would have Â£55m per day to spend on what we want.




p.s don't like kippers- rainbow trout grilled in champagne and served with truffles is my preference.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			To quote UKIP
I cannot see any way that the EU would not want to sell their goods to their biggest market, it would be a disaster for them not to.
		
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I agree. They'll just likely be more expensive!

Btw. I believe that Â£55m is Gross cost. The net cost is something like Â£5Billion per year/Â£15m per day. Probably about the same as some Government Departments spend on Paper!

As for the reduced power vacuum cleaners, that's to 'save the world' and will probably be good for UK as Dyson cleaners will still comply! It's along the same lines as the Fuel Efficiency/Pollution requirements imposed on Car Manufacturers. Do you see those as bad too?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I agree. They'll just likely be more expensive!

Btw. I believe that Â£55m is Gross cost. The net cost is something like Â£5Billion per year/Â£15m per day. Probably about the same as some Government Departments spend on Paper!

As for the reduced power vacuum cleaners, that's to 'save the world' and will probably be good for UK as Dyson cleaners will still comply! It's along the same lines as the Fuel Efficiency/Pollution requirements imposed on Car Manufacturers. Do you see those as bad too?
		
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So our goods would be more expensive!  No one would be better off with trade barriers, especially the EU.

I doubt very much if reduced power Vacuum cleaners will save the world, you will have to use them for longer to do the same job.   I see them as matters best dealt with and decide on by ourselves, we don't need outside agencies to control such matters, we pay for an army of our own civil servants to do this.   It's Ok for the EU to advise but thats all.

If we are out of the EU the Â£55 million will be our own money to do as we wish with.


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