# No Returns - WHS



## Swango1980 (Mar 22, 2021)

I'm sure I talked about this before, but cannot find thread, and hopefully other clubs have had more time to think of how to deal with this.

No Returns. What do clubs plan to do in terms of:

1. Communicating with players on importance of avoiding No Return Scores in competitions (in terms of failing to play holes, or return scores rather than picking up on an odd hole in a medal)
2. If NRs do happen, will you have a procedure on how those are included in a players Scoring History (do those on the committee need to manually enter middling hole scores)?
3. If a player NRs after playing fewer than 10 holes, does that need to be dealt differently than NRing after 10 holes or more?
4. Have you introduced any disciplinary procedures?

I'm aware that NRs are not uncommon, in one of our last comps before WHS we had 10 NRs (bad weather). We will have some players who tend to NR when they lose their head. I'm conscious players have a lot to take in at the moment, so I certainly don't want to be issuing put any strict guidelines about NRing just yet, and scare people off whilst also confusing them. However, I don't want people just NRing because they have a bad day, and suddenly the committee have a lot of head scratching, chasing and determining suitable penalty scores at the end of every competition.

So, would be interested if there are any standard practices clubs are planning to issue to members at some point, either from now or at a point they think members are getting used to the WHS basics


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			1. Communicating with players on importance of avoiding No Return Scores in competitions (in terms of failing to play holes, or return scores rather than picking up on an odd hole in a medal)
		
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My club can communicate all it wants but I'm afraid that if I want to omit some holes for any reason I'm going to do it. If the WHS system cannot cope with this, hard luck. In any event, if most NR cards were returned, the vast majority would result in the same increase as if they'd been returned, or, more likely, not count. 

Surely there's nothing for the club to decide re. how to deal with NRs, it should all be laid down by CONGU. And disciplinary procedures! It's a leisure pursuit, not life or death.


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2021)

This may have been the thread you recalled 
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/no-returns-policy-vs-reality.106066/post-2214341


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			My club can communicate all it wants but I'm afraid that if I want to omit some holes for any reason I'm going to do it. If the WHS system cannot cope with this, hard luck. In any event, if most NR cards were returned, the vast majority would result in the same increase as if they'd been returned, or, more likely, not count.

Surely there's nothing for the club to decide re. how to deal with NRs, it should all be laid down by CONGU. And disciplinary procedures! It's a leisure pursuit, not life or death.
		
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WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return _all_ scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.

Handicap committee members are volunteers. Players who refuse to adhere to the rules of handicapping, particularly those who don't submit their scores, create unnecessary additional work for them, and absolutely should see sanctions.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return _all_ scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.

*Handicap committee members are volunteers. Players who refuse to adhere to the rules of handicapping, particularly those who don't submit their scores, create unnecessary additional work for them, and absolutely should see sanctions.*

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This is exactly where I am coming from, and what sanctions could be taken without upsetting those that have the attitude "it is just a game".


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## jim8flog (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I agree entirely.
Whilst I'm not a fan of willy nilly NRing, it's just a game and it happens for various reasons.

As long as someone returns their card (via whichever method these days) so the organisers can see they've NR'd, I don't see what it has to do with anyone apart from the player.
		
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This has always been a bit of misconception

Every player scores affects the Playing Condition calculation and therefore everyones Handicap alterations.

Last time I did the cards there was one player who is notorious for NR every hole when he reckons he does not have a winning score. I deleted his NR and put in the scores myself - his score 35 points hardly a NR.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This has always been a bit of misconception

Every player scores affects the Playing Condition calculation and therefore everyones Handicap alterations.

Last time I did the cards there was one player who is notorious for NR every hole when he reckons he does not have a winning score. I deleted his NR and put in the scores myself - his score 35 points hardly a NR.
		
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And, god forbid if a player is so bad, they NR in over 12 rounds in 20 (and by NR, I don't mean pick up on one or two holes after starting it, I mean picking u and simply not bothering playing any more holes, or tearing up their card)


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## rulefan (Mar 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return _all_ scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.
		
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Aren't 'hole not played/started' entered differently to 'hole not finished/picked up'? The effect in calculations is different.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Where's the misconception?

If an amateur club golfer plays in a competition, has a bad day and decides to quit, that's purely his perogative.

As long as he hands in his card, what business is it of anyone?
		
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What do you feel about this statment?:

The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			As I said twice, players should always hand their cards in.

Also, I referenced "a competition" and "a bad day", not "repeatedly".
		
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OK, but that is where I am trying to get to. What are clubs going to do. Ignore one or 2 NRs. Start taking action after 3 or more. Or, do they have other boundaries? Will some clubs formally warn players immediately after 1 NR, if there is no good reason for it. In my experience, most NRs are simply because a player has had a bad day, or even a bad hole, and lost their head and given up. I doubt England Golf would deem that an acceptable reason to give up on scoring. Even if they hand in their card, they've still left the last number of holes unplayed and blank, so no one would ever really know how they would have scored. Our last 5 holes are pretty easy, and you often see people who have had bad days finish on a little nice run of pars and even birdies.

I appreciate many club golfers simply go out for fun, and feel it is perfectly OK to give up if they have a bad day. But, as a volunteer, I have no doubt committed hundreds of hours of my life getting into handicapping, sorting new members out, conducting reviews, communicating with members, etc. I now look to the future, and see there could be a lot more chasing and deciding what to do when a player NRs. A worry that really did not exist under CONGU. So, forgive me if I get a little bit frustrated when I've to spend even more time sorting out players who have not fulfilled their limited and simple responsibilities under the rules of handicapping, whilst causing me and others on the Committee extra work in sorting their scoring record out because they couldn't be bothered.

But, my frustrations are balanced by the fact that I certainly do not want golfers feeling they are under pressure to continue playing when they are mentally done. As a Committee member I want golfers to be buzzing about all aspects of the club, and to feel under no pressure to do things against their wishes. I certainly didn't join the Committee because I wanted to piss golfers off, I joined as I wanted to make a positive difference.

So, I'd love to know what other clubs will be doing, so that we are not overly tough, or accused of being too lenient. We want to be as fair as possible. Last time we  had a competition when the weather was dodgy, 10 golfers NRed. Should someone make a subjective call and say "weather was pretty bad, let them off this time", or should the 10 players be reminded they shouldn't do this, or even tougher actions taken, especially if any of these players have NRed 2 or 3 times in the recent past?

I certainly think it would be a failure if we simply do nothing, because I'm guessing there is usually at least one NR in most competitions. Most of those because a player has given up rather than being injured. So, if we did nothing then we'd need to resolve those NRs every round. Unless the system did it for us, which I'm unsure it will as it will not know the circumstances why the NR occured.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			This is exactly where I am coming from, and what sanctions could be taken without upsetting those that have the attitude "it is just a game".
		
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I'd have thought they shouldn't be too upset about about missing out on a few competitions or having their handicap index withdrawn for a while.



rulefan said:



			Aren't 'hole not played/started' entered differently to 'hole not finished/picked up'? The effect in calculations is different.
		
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This is my point; players will need ongoing education with regards to what to write on their card and input on the score entry system. We have issued multiple newsletters covering key WHS points such as this, but many simply won't have read them, so we will need to give them some leeway for a while.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc
		
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What do you think to Post 11 then? Remember, every year we did not have WHS.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc
		
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Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping. Missing scores can affect the PCC and therefore everyone else's handicap.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			What do you think to Post 11 then? Remember, every year we did not have WHS.
		
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What about it ? Doesnt change the point - how many people do you actually believe are going to do it deliberately?

Why does having WHS make a difference ?



wjemather said:



			Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping. Missing scores can affect the PCC and therefore everyone else's handicap.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.
		
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Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes


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## rulefan (Mar 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.
		
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And can affect the PCC and indirectly other player's handicaps.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about it ? Doesnt change the point - how many people do you actually believe are going to do it deliberately?

Why does having WHS make a difference ?



Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes
		
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Are you saying people do not deliberately? You mean they were completely unaware that they didn't play the last few holes?

The WHS says nothing about disciplining players ONLY if they NR to purposely increase their handicap. WHS makes a HUGE difference, hence post Number 11 was taken directly out of the WHS manual.

If you had a very low handicapper, who simply wanted to keep their handicap low, what would you do if they continually NRed every time they started a round poorly? Nothing, or would you punish them? If you were to punish them, then would you not be consistent and punish a higher handicapper for doing the same?

Under CONGU a player would get a 0,1 increase, fine (assuming you didn't completely ignore them). Doesn't happen under WHS, that is why it is an issue.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes
		
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The DQ from the competition is irrelevant for handicapping. Without the score being submitted, the handicap committee are required to try and establish the actual scores (e.g. by looking for playing partners cards) and potentially applying a penalty score - all this is extra work for these volunteers.

Just one missing scorecard can make a one stroke difference in the PCC, and thereby affect everybody else's handicap record who played the course that day (including those not in the competition). At the extremes, one missing score can also affect the application of exceptional score reductions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you saying people do not deliberately? You mean they were completely unaware that they didn't play the last few holes?

The WHS says nothing about disciplining players ONLY if they NR to purposely increase their handicap. WHS makes a HUGE difference, hence post Number 11 was taken directly out of the WHS manual.

If you had a very low handicapper, who simply wanted to keep their handicap low, what would you do if they continually NRed every time they started a round poorly? Nothing, or would you punish them? If you were to punish them, then would you not be consistent and punish a higher handicapper for doing the same?

Under CONGU a player would get a 0,1 increase, fine (assuming you didn't completely ignore them). Doesn't happen under WHS, that is why it is an issue.
		
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Have you ever proven someone has “deliberately” not entered a card ?

Also why would someone deliberately not enter their card - if it’s a really bad round then it’s makes no difference , if it’s a superb round then they are going to make sure they submit

And if a Low Handicapper NRs then why would it keep his Handicap Low ?

Do you not trust your fellow members and golfers ?



wjemather said:



			The DQ from the competition is irrelevant for handicapping. Without the score being submitted, the handicap committee are required to try and establish the actual scores (e.g. by looking for playing partners cards) and potentially applying a penalty score - all this is extra work for these volunteers.

Just one missing scorecard can make a one stroke difference in the PCC, and thereby affect everybody else's handicap record who played the course that day (including those not in the competition).
		
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How much affect do you really think one missing scorecard will have ? People’s handicaps are going to be affected by someone not putting their scorecard in - seen it happy plenty of times and seen it have zero affect on anyone’s handicap 

If someone doesn’t put their scorecard in - DQ and move on. There is no harden fast rule in regards not submitting a card and people need to understand the level we are all playing it and why we are playing.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you ever proven someone has “deliberately” not entered a card ?

Also why would someone deliberately not enter their card - if it’s a really bad round then it’s makes no difference , if it’s a superb round then they are going to make sure they submit

And if a Low Handicapper NRs then why would it keep his Handicap Low ?

Do you not trust your fellow members and golfers ?
		
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Submitting your card after a round is an automatic routine. Most people who don't enter them do so deliberately, mostly because they believe they "aren't going to win anything, so what's the point". Very few truly forget.

By not summitting a bad score that would push a good round out of their last 20 scores, someone can keep their handicap index artificially low.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you ever proven someone has “deliberately” not entered a card ?

Also why would someone deliberately not enter their card - if it’s a really bad round then it’s makes no difference , if it’s a superb round then they are going to make sure they submit

And if a Low Handicapper NRs then why would it keep his Handicap Low ?

Do you not trust your fellow members and golfers ?



How much affect do you really think one missing scorecard will have ? People’s handicaps are going to be affected by someone not putting their scorecard in - seen it happy plenty of times and seen it have zero affect on anyone’s handicap

If someone doesn’t put their scorecard in - DQ and move on. There is no harden fast rule in regards not submitting a card and people need to understand the level we are all playing it and why we are playing.
		
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Clearly, you have no understanding on how the World Handicap System works, in comparison to CONGU.

You also seem to absolve the player from any responsibilities in terms of handicapping. If they are having a bad day, have a sulk, stop playing, no problem


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm not on a committee or have any particular expertise in this area, but my observation when this topic comes up is the variation and inconsistency in terms that are tossed about.
To try a couple of scenarios:

Player A, in a medal can't locate their ball (when expected to find it) on the 17th hole, is already over handicap and chooses to NR this hole. They score the 18th, and subsequently key in the 17 scores plus 1 NR hole into the system, resulting in an NR overall   -   this is what I think of as a "No Return"  - is this wrong?

Player B, has a bit of a torrid time, and decides on the 8th not to continue the round and leaves the course taking their card with them. Nothing is subsequently put into the system. Is this also a "No Return"?

Cheers


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Clearly, you have no understanding on how the World Handicap System works, in comparison to CONGU.

You also seem to absolve the player from any responsibilities in terms of handicapping. If they are having a bad day, have a sulk, stop playing, no problem
		
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what’s wrong with someone stopping playing and giving up when they are having a mare ? Seen it plenty of times and had no issues at all with - why would anyone have an issue with that. Would you like to see someone suffer for the full 18 ?

Are you really going to look to find ways to punish people because they don’t finish a round of golf. This isn’t people’s careers - it’s supposed to be enjoyment and if someone isn’t enjoying themselves then they are entitled to walk away - and to do so without the fear of some jobsworth who wants to find a way to apply further punishment on them.

There is no need to add rules where it’s not required for scenarios that affect .0001% of the club golfers out there -


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## Bdill93 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			what’s wrong with someone stopping playing and giving up when they are having a mare ? Seen it plenty of times and had no issues at all with - why would anyone have an issue with that. Would you like to see someone suffer for the full 18 ?

Are you really going to look to find ways to punish people because they don’t finish a round of golf. This isn’t people’s careers - it’s supposed to be enjoyment and if someone isn’t enjoying themselves then they are entitled to walk away - and to do so without the fear of some jobsworth who wants to find a way to apply further punishment on them.

There is no need to add rules where it’s not required for scenarios that affect .0001% of the club golfers out there -
		
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There is a need to add the rule as under CONGU there was a punishment for a NR - 0.1 added on to your handicap.

WHS requires everyone to complete their rounds and submit the cards. If you dont complete a number of holes, the computer will generate an estimated score for you on incomplete holes - but only if you submit the card. If you walk away and dont submit a card with a minimum of 9 holes scored, why shouldnt you get at least the 0.1 addition you used to? Youve taken a space in the comp someone else might have wanted who would have played the full 18?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

IainP said:



			I'm not on a committee or have any particular expertise in this area, but my observation when this topic comes up is the variation and inconsistency in terms that are tossed about.
To try a couple of scenarios:

Player A, in a medal can't locate their ball (when expected to find it) on the 17th hole, is already over handicap and chooses to NR this hole. They score the 18th, and subsequently key in the 17 scores plus 1 NR hole into the system, resulting in an NR overall   -   this is what I think of as a "No Return"  - is this wrong?

Player B, has a bit of a torrid time, and decides on the 8th not to continue the round and leaves the course taking their card with them. Nothing is subsequently put into the system. Is this also a "No Return"?

Cheers
		
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To clarify.

A player that NRs in a medal because they did not complete a hole, because they had a nightmare, is not an issue. So long as they continue to play the round thereafter. Their score will still be NR for the competition, but for handicapping it is important they keep playing.

The issue is the player that has a nightmare, and then just quits. Makes no attempt to play subsequent holes. They are then not fulfilling their handicapping responsibilities. Previously, under CONGU, it didn't really matter, because they would still get a 0.1 increase and effect the CSS in the same way. Under WHS, this is not the case.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			what’s wrong with someone stopping playing and giving up when they are having a mare ? Seen it plenty of times and had no issues at all with - why would anyone have an issue with that. Would you like to see someone suffer for the full 18 ?

Are you really going to look to find ways to punish people because they don’t finish a round of golf. This isn’t people’s careers - it’s supposed to be enjoyment and if someone isn’t enjoying themselves then they are entitled to walk away - and to do so without the fear of some jobsworth who wants to find a way to apply further punishment on them.

There is no need to add rules where it’s not required for scenarios that affect .0001% of the club golfers out there -
		
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You complete ignore the comments related to how the WHS works. There is no sense in explaining this to you again, as it goes in one ear and out the other.

You are simply thinking on an emotional context. You seem to think I (and the handicapping authorities) are WANTING to see people suffer. It is a completely immature attitude to have, as it makes no sense. No one within the handicapping authorities wants to see golfers suffer. And, no one on a Committee wants to see that either (hopefully). Committee members would rather stay well clear of any issues related to penalties and disciplinary procedures if at all possible. 

However, if we just ignored, or let golfers NR when they were feeling upset, what happens when another golfer complains about the Committee for not taking stronger action, and referring to the WHS Manual. Do you think England Golf will fully support the Committee, or remind us of our responsibilities as a Committee? I'd imagine the latter?

What if a very low handicapper always NRed when he was having a bad round, and ended up qualifying to play in prestigious County events. Yet, if he submitted all scores, he would not be anywhere near that level of low handicap? And, if we did take action, what if he kicks off and says he is being treated unfairly because a 15 handicapper was let off the hook for doing the same thing (yet he NRs because he gets stroppy rather than trying to keep a low handicap).

Amongst the Player Responsibilities, we have:

"Attempt to make the best score possible on each hole"

Please tell me how they fulfil that duty by walking off the course and not bothering to play the last remaining holes?

I agree, this isn't people's careers. But that is a fairly pathetic argument, because we could then apply that to letting people off for not signing their card, dropping in the wrong place or accidentally grounding their club in the bunker. Why penalise any golfer for what you think is a fairly minor breach of the rules, just don't apply the penalty. Why should we, "not playing for a row of houses" as some like to say at times. Probably not the right approach for a Committee member to take?


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2021)

IainP said:



			I'm not on a committee or have any particular expertise in this area, but my observation when this topic comes up is the variation and inconsistency in terms that are tossed about.
To try a couple of scenarios:

Player A, in a medal can't locate their ball (when expected to find it) on the 17th hole, is already over handicap and chooses to NR this hole. They score the 18th, and subsequently key in the 17 scores plus 1 NR hole into the system, resulting in an NR overall   -   this is what I think of as a "No Return"  - is this wrong?

Player B, has a bit of a torrid time, and decides on the 8th not to continue the round and leaves the course taking their card with them. Nothing is subsequently put into the system. Is this also a "No Return"?

Cheers
		
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No return (NR) applies only to a hole that is not completed - a round may have more than one NR. Confusingly it has also commonly been used to describe a round that includes one or more NRs - by the rules of golf they are disqualifications (DQ) for failure to complete a hole (medal play only) or failure to return a completed scorecard. Player A has done exactly as they should.

Player B would be disqualified from the competition, but would also be in breach of their responsibilities under the rules of handicapping both for not completing the minimum 10 holes (assuming an 18-hole round) and for not returning their score. In the scenario outlined, the handicap committee should apply a penalty score equal to a round played to handicap.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			[QUOTE="Swango1980, post: 2329915, member: 26510".

Amongst the Player Responsibilities, we have:

"Attempt to make the best score possible on each hole"

Please tell me how they fulfil that duty by walking off the course and not bothering to play the last remaining holes?/QUOTE]
Surely that means your intention from the 1st tee up to and including whilst you are in the competition? Once you've quit you're out.

If I had such a mare that I decided to quit in a comp, there's absolutely no way I'm still competing properly and truthfully "doing the best I can" on the remaining holes.  I'd just be totally threaders and almost undoubtedly *not bother holing out*.
		
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Of course, that is difficult to prove, and I don't disagree with your point. Although, technically had you openly admitted that then you would be in breach of your responsibilities.

In an extreme case, if a player knew he was unlikely to win a competition after 5 or 6 holes, they could purposely decide to miss putts and mess about for the rest of the round, to intentionally make their score as high as possible. Maybe turn a potential and simple 90 into 100+. Although this will almost certainly fall outside their best 8 rounds, by doing this regularly then they will almost certainly push scores into their to 8 that would never have been there. Because, we all know that we can have a nightmare start, but then turn things around, have a good back 9 and a pretty decent score, albeit not top of the leaderboard. However, this particular scenario will be a nightmare for anyone on the Committee to identify, as that player could simply claim it is all part of their mentality and they lose their game.

However, by simply failing to stop playing, that is clear the player has not fulfilled their responsibilities. Unless they can claim injury.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You complete ignore the comments related to how the WHS works. There is no sense in explaining this to you again, as it goes in one ear and out the other.

You are simply thinking on an emotional context. You seem to think I (and the handicapping authorities) are WANTING to see people suffer. It is a completely immature attitude to have, as it makes no sense. No one within the handicapping authorities wants to see golfers suffer. And, no one on a Committee wants to see that either (hopefully). Committee members would rather stay well clear of any issues related to penalties and disciplinary procedures if at all possible.

However, if we just ignored, or let golfers NR when they were feeling upset, what happens when another golfer complains about the Committee for not taking stronger action, and referring to the WHS Manual. Do you think England Golf will fully support the Committee, or remind us of our responsibilities as a Committee? I'd imagine the latter?

What if a very low handicapper always NRed when he was having a bad round, and ended up qualifying to play in prestigious County events. Yet, if he submitted all scores, he would not be anywhere near that level of low handicap? And, if we did take action, what if he kicks off and says he is being treated unfairly because a 15 handicapper was let off the hook for doing the same thing (yet he NRs because he gets stroppy rather than trying to keep a low handicap).

Amongst the Player Responsibilities, we have:

"Attempt to make the best score possible on each hole"

Please tell me how they fulfil that duty by walking off the course and not bothering to play the last remaining holes?

I agree, this isn't people's careers. But that is a fairly pathetic argument, because we could then apply that to letting people off for not signing their card, dropping in the wrong place or accidentally grounding their club in the bunker. Why penalise any golfer for what you think is a fairly minor breach of the rules, just don't apply the penalty. Why should we, "not playing for a row of houses" as some like to say at times. Probably not the right approach for a Committee member to take?
		
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a lot of “what if” scenarios based on what exactly ?

How many people do you honestly think don’t put their card in to try and manipulate the system ? Seriously ?

And yes you should look the human side isn’t of looking at creating sanctions because there is nothing that outlines any sanctions , what are the limits , how many times is someone allowed to not enter before they get put on the naughty step

You also can’t compare it to the clear golf rules

If someone doesn’t sign a card the rule is there , same with grounding in a bunker etc etc - rules for them are clear

But show me what rule is says that as a club golfer I am not allowed to walk off if I’m having a complete mare and I need to get off the golf course ?

what rule is it that states I must play the very best I can do on every hole 

What club would look to apply sanctions to someone who does that ? And how many members do you really think will start pointing at people for not being sanctioned because they walked off.

We allow people to NR , if someone wants to walk in because they are having that bad a day they can walk in , they aren’t forced to stay out there in fear of any sanctions that will be applied if someone believes they didn’t “try their best” and complete every hole.

No one starts a competition wanting to play their best - we all start trying to do the very best we can and try to enjoy the round , sometimes that just doesn’t happen and people want to leave. Sometimes people just forgot to put their card in , sometimes some people have to rush off - all things I have witnessed over the past 10 years and it’s not bothered me or another member one single bit


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Just for ease I've numbered a couple of points.

Point 1 is, and always has been, cheating.   It also goes against the responsibility you previously posted about returning the best score possible.

2.   Do the rules specifically say that players must return the best score they can possibly make for every single hole, including ALL holes that come after the point they have NR'd in a medal?
		
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Number 1, 100% agree

Number 2, "Attempt to make the best score possible on each hole"

Now, of course, you could interpret that as the best on each hole they decide to play. Or you could interpret that as each hole of the round. I assume the latter, perhaps you assume the former. However, I think I have good reason, given the statement in Post 11. That is, Committees being encouraged to consider disciplinary procedures for players who fail to complete rounds.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But show me what rule is says that as a club golfer I am not allowed to walk off if I’m having a complete mare and I need to get off the golf course ?

what rule is it that states I must play the very best I can do on every hole
		
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OK, despite repeating myself, maybe this will bring everything together by answering your specific questions:

 You asked : *"But show me what rule is says that as a club golfer I am not allowed to walk off if I’m having a complete mare and I need to get off the golf course ?"*

This was in Post 11, where the WHS Manual states: "The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds."

You asked: *"what rule is it that states I must play the very best I can do on every hole"*

This was in Post 29, where the WHS manual states: "Attempt to make the best score possible on each hole"


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			But your wording there is slightly, but importantly, different.  The WHS wording you posted is "should consider disciplinary procedures for players who *repeatedly* fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds."

So at the moment, there's nothing that says that every player MUST complete ALL 18 holes to the best of his ability even after quitting a competition.
		
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And, this is mainly why I am asking the question. The guidance seems clear to a point, but then stops short of being definitive. There are certainly players who NR repeatedly at my club. But then, how does one define repeatedly? One might say 2 or 3 NRs would meet that definition. Others may think many more would be required. It is just another one of my grievances with WHS, where it simply adds another concern onto the Committee that was a non issue before.

However, the reason I posted this on the Expert forum was that I hoped Handicap Secs at other clubs may have a view on this, in terms of what they are thinking at their clubs, if anything. However, I certainly do not believe that England Golf would accept a player walking off the course as fulfilling their responsibilities. The Competition and the Round for Handicap are considered as separate issues. WHS does not care about your competition result when it comes to calculating your handicap. It does care that you try your best during the round.

I have not yet come up with any rules of conduct related to this at my club, yet. Because, members are confused enough about adapting to the basics of the new system, it is going to take a bit of time for them to start getting used to it when we start playing again. Some I don't wanna start throwing out some new disciplinary procedures and upsetting some members (especially when moral is already generally low with bloomin Covid). But, at the Committee Meeting last night, the Senior's representative rightly pointed out his concerns, and we need to come up with something. Because, if we do not, we could be messing around pretty quickly trying to chase players for their scores, applying penalty scores etc. If a player walks off on the front 9 (the 5th is a good spot to walk off given its location on the course) after a terrible start, then we will apparently need to disregard the round completely. So, a player could be having a shocker, and that round never sees their handicap record. And clearly that would be a big breach of fulfilling those responsibilities.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 24, 2021)

Just had a novel thought about a potential way in which the handicap system could deal with an NR, without potentially banning or disciplining players via Committee.

If a player is deemed to NR (I.e. quit playing, rather than simply picking up on a disaster hole) without a reasonable excuse, this could simply be marked as a Round NR. This then subtracts 1.0 off their Index, and this doesn't return to normal until they submit a complete round in future. There would be an Asterix next to this handicap, so that it is flagged if they try to enter a competition that requires a low handicap limit. 

Although I don't agree with Liverpoolphil that we just happily ignore people who NR because they have had a huff (I didn't mind at all under CONGU), I do share the feeling that disciplinary procedures are never a nice thing for a Committee to have to do. The idea above would at least make golfers think twice about quitting on a round.

Obviously this thought doesn't resolve my original question about what Committee should do for now, if anything. So far, I don't think anyone has shared what will be happening at their clubs? So I presume either nothing has been decided yet, or perhaps clubs will do nothing and might risk dealing with individual cases as they arise subjectively?


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just had a novel thought about a potential way in which the handicap system could deal with an NR, without potentially banning or disciplining players via Committee.

If a player is deemed to NR (I.e. quit playing, rather than simply picking up on a disaster hole) without a reasonable excuse, this could simply be marked as a Round NR. This then subtracts 1.0 off their Index, and this doesn't return to normal until they submit a complete round in future. There would be an Asterix next to this handicap, so that it is flagged if they try to enter a competition that requires a low handicap limit.

Although I don't agree with Liverpoolphil that we just happily ignore people who NR because they have had a huff (I didn't mind at all under CONGU), I do share the feeling that disciplinary procedures are never a nice thing for a Committee to have to do. The idea above would at least make golfers think twice about quitting on a round.

Obviously this thought doesn't resolve my original question about what Committee should do for now, if anything. So far, I don't think anyone has shared what will be happening at their clubs? So I presume either nothing has been decided yet, or perhaps clubs will do nothing and might risk dealing with individual cases as they arise subjectively?
		
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WHS copes just fine with NRs and walkoffs as long as the score is returned, and by means of penalty scores if necessary.

The only issue I have is that the process on the platform requires manual calculations when it should be a simple drop-down list, i.e. delete intent or post penalty score: high/low/to-handicap. I submitted an enhancement request for this last year.

Dealing with persistent offenders will be for committees to decide. We intend to take a gentle educational approach initially, but members have been advised regarding potential sanctions. These include suspension from regular or trophy competitions, exclusion from knockouts, suspension/freezing of index, requiring general play scores for reinstatement, etc. These measures are new for us, but I know many clubs had such processes in place previously under UHS.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			WHS copes just fine with NRs and walkoffs as long as the score is returned, and by means of penalty scores if necessary.

The only issue I have is that the process on the platform requires manual calculations when it should be a simple drop-down list, i.e. delete intent or post penalty score: high/low/to-handicap. I submitted an enhancement request for this last year.

Dealing with persistent offenders will be for committees to decide. We intend to take a gentle educational approach initially, but members have been advised regarding potential sanctions. These include suspension from regular or trophy competitions, exclusion from knockouts, suspension/freezing of index, requiring general play scores for reinstatement, etc. These measures are new for us, but I know many clubs had such processes in place previously under UHS.
		
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Cheers

At our club, I'm always concerned about competition ban type penalties, as it heavily punishes a player who supports competitions by playing in most of them, and is no punishment for a player who plays in a competition once a year. Also, I guess at some clubs, with steep membership fees, golfers are invested in golf and are likely to do their best not to fall out with Committee (and those clubs may not be that bothered in losing that member anyway, if they can attract other members). Our club is a very cheap membership, and a lot of members enjoy golf, but not high up on their priority list in terms of other distractions like family, work, other hobbies, etc. So, hand them out a ban, and they are more likely to think "whatever, won't join next year" (which is where I see where Liverpoolphil is coming from, in that aspect at least).

Although WHS works fine in terms of applying penalty scores, my concerns are:


If no card is submitted, or any scores entered, someone has to go chasing to find out what holes were actually played, and enter any scores they can find (possibly of another person's card). If there are NRs in most competitions, at least one, then that is extra Committee work that wasn't required before (previously, at long as you knew the entry list, then these players would just be included in the score sheet as NR, no worry about whether their holes scores were entered or not)
If a player gives up before completing the front 9 (which is not uncommon), then they can avoid the score going on their handicap record at all. Again, previously it would be assumed they had a bad round and go up 0.1.
Competitions with multiple NRs, maybe because of bad weather, will provide a headache as well. Do you treat these players differently to a single player who NRed on a glorious summer day who just walked off the course in a huff? Again, before all cases would just be NR and handicap system would take care of it.
Essentially, pre WHS there was no requirement to discipline players for quitting rounds. The only issue players disliked this was on a social level, not a handicap level. Now, WHS instructs us that we need to consider disciplinary procedures, which just opens a can of worms.

I don't think we will introduce anything yet, as we all need to see how the system works in anger. We will likely also take the soft approach initially, and then come late summer see if we need to introduce harder measures. Golf is so much more complicated now that it ever has been. Golfers are trying to learn a new handicap system (which by it's nature is more complicated, whether it is fairer or not), whilst keeping track of all the Covid guidelines. We also have a new competition secretary, who is issuing out new terms of competition and so on. So, it is information overload at the moment, I don't want to start scaring members by throwing out disciplinary measures, when many are simply panicking about struggling to come to terms with the difference between a Course Handicap, and the many Playing Handicaps that stem from that.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Cheers

At our club, I'm always concerned about competition ban type penalties, as it heavily punishes a player who supports competitions by playing in most of them, and is no punishment for a player who plays in a competition once a year. Also, I guess at some clubs, with steep membership fees, golfers are invested in golf and are likely to do their best not to fall out with Committee (and those clubs may not be that bothered in losing that member anyway, if they can attract other members). Our club is a very cheap membership, and a lot of members enjoy golf, but not high up on their priority list in terms of other distractions like family, work, other hobbies, etc. So, hand them out a ban, and they are more likely to think "whatever, won't join next year" (which is where I see where Liverpoolphil is coming from, in that aspect at least).

Although WHS works fine in terms of applying penalty scores, my concerns are:


If no card is submitted, or any scores entered, someone has to go chasing to find out what holes were actually played, and enter any scores they can find (possibly of another person's card). If there are NRs in most competitions, at least one, then that is extra Committee work that wasn't required before (previously, at long as you knew the entry list, then these players would just be included in the score sheet as NR, no worry about whether their holes scores were entered or not)
If a player gives up before completing the front 9 (which is not uncommon), then they can avoid the score going on their handicap record at all. Again, previously it would be assumed they had a bad round and go up 0.1.
Competitions with multiple NRs, maybe because of bad weather, will provide a headache as well. Do you treat these players differently to a single player who NRed on a glorious summer day who just walked off the course in a huff? Again, before all cases would just be NR and handicap system would take care of it.
Essentially, pre WHS there was no requirement to discipline players for quitting rounds. The only issue players disliked this was on a social level, not a handicap level. Now, WHS instructs us that we need to consider disciplinary procedures, which just opens a can of worms.

I don't think we will introduce anything yet, as we all need to see how the system works in anger. We will likely also take the soft approach initially, and then come late summer see if we need to introduce harder measures. Golf is so much more complicated now that it ever has been. Golfers are trying to learn a new handicap system (which by it's nature is more complicated, whether it is fairer or not), whilst keeping track of all the Covid guidelines. We also have a new competition secretary, who is issuing out new terms of competition and so on. So, it is information overload at the moment, I don't want to start scaring members by throwing out disciplinary measures, when many are simply panicking about struggling to come to terms with the difference between a Course Handicap, and the many Playing Handicaps that stem from that.
		
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I'm not envisioning many persistent offenders; we had a dozen or so members at our club who routinely walked-off or refused to submit non-winning cards, but education (pro shop staff helped massively with this by talking directly to people) last year reduced that number to under five and a couple of those declined EG data-submission, so do not have official handicaps any longer. A potentially good option for the stubborn ones is requiring a general play round with a committee member as an educational exercise.


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## rosecott (Mar 24, 2021)

There is something which has not had a mention in this discussion on NRs.

CONGU introduced - as handicap qualifiers - an innovation which was intended to make NRs a thing of the past - Regular Strokeply Maximum Score. The concept was that you played a Medal round (still called that by a majority of golfers, I think) and a complete blow-up on a hole made it a bit difficult to get into the prize money - but not impossible - but encouraged players to carry on playing and still allowed the score to be used for handicap purposes. Like most changes from the norm, it was met with hoots of derision - mainly from low handicappers. We bit the bullet and, after the aforementioned hoots, we brought it in and it is now accepted with players now wondering what the fuss was about. We do not have NRs.


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## rulefan (Mar 24, 2021)

rosecott said:



			There is something which has not had a mention in this discussion on NRs.

CONGU introduced - as handicap qualifiers - an innovation which was intended to make NRs a thing of the past - Regular Strokeply Maximum Score. The concept was that you played a Medal round (still called that by a majority of golfers, I think) and a complete blow-up on a hole made it a bit difficult to get into the prize money - but not impossible - but encouraged players to carry on playing and still allowed the score to be used for handicap purposes. Like most changes from the norm, it was met with hoots of derision - mainly from low handicappers. We bit the bullet and, after the aforementioned hoots, we brought it in and it is now accepted with players now wondering what the fuss was about. We do not have NRs.
		
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Coincidentally, we are reviewing our 'non returned cards' and NR policy. A few years ago when the former was causing issues with card reconciliation and handicap protection, the hcap sec sent letters to offenders warning them that action (unspecified) might be taken together with a document explaining why continuing a round was a good idea after an odd blow up hole. After rumours went round about possible suspension (never actually mentioned) the problem stopped and except for the odd legitimate case has never resurfaced.
Unfortunately, the original proposed formal procedure was never documented although copies of the letters (and 'good idea document') do. After an informal discussion with the hcap sec I have tabled the item for our next hcap meeting. 
If anyone produces a workable formal procedure in the next couple of weeks I would be very interested in seeing it.


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## jim8flog (Mar 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Coincidentally, we are reviewing our 'non returned cards' and NR policy. A few years ago when the former was causing issues with card reconciliation and handicap protection, the hcap sec sent letters to offenders warning them that action (unspecified) might be taken together with a document explaining why continuing a round was a good idea after an odd blow up hole. After rumours went round about possible suspension (never actually mentioned) the problem stopped and except for the odd legitimate case has never resurfaced.
Unfortunately, the original proposed formal procedure was never documented although copies of the letters (and 'good idea document') do. After an informal discussion with the hcap sec I have tabled the item for our next hcap meeting.
If anyone produces a workable formal procedure in the next couple of weeks I would be very interested in seeing it.
		
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Dealing with players who failed to  return cards was becoming very time consuming for the office having to contact the players to see why there was no card with anything up to about 30 in some comps .  Bearing in that on some Monday mornings the handicap admin secretary was processing 3/4 competitions.

We therefore introduced formal procedures about 5 years ago. With one player it went as far as suspension of handicap for 4 weeks. It generally did the trick we went from up to 30 not returned cards/scores to just a few. However it was very time consuming as it involved a series of letters to those who did not return cards etc. and a need to keep records. 

Basically it was 
1st time - gentle reminder letter, with a reminder of the clubs rules
Noted for one year
2nd time (within  a year of the first) a slightly more insistent letter  with a reminder of the third stage procedure .
Noted for one year
3rd time within a year of the 2nd letter - suspension of handicap.

We  shelved the procedure for the time being,  which it has been for a couple of years now,  but it is still in the Handbook as a rule with which to remind persistent offenders.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

rosecott said:



			There is something which has not had a mention in this discussion on NRs.

CONGU introduced - as handicap qualifiers - an innovation which was intended to make NRs a thing of the past - Regular Strokeply Maximum Score. The concept was that you played a Medal round (still called that by a majority of golfers, I think) and a complete blow-up on a hole made it a bit difficult to get into the prize money - but not impossible - but encouraged players to carry on playing and still allowed the score to be used for handicap purposes. Like most changes from the norm, it was met with hoots of derision - mainly from low handicappers. We bit the bullet and, after the aforementioned hoots, we brought it in and it is now accepted with players now wondering what the fuss was about. We do not have NRs.
		
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Maximum Score is something I am considering for most of our medals - the aim being to increase participation and enjoyment (and pace of play), as I think many people will happily take a net double/triple-bogey and move on rather than having to trudge back to the tee or get DQed.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Maximum Score is something I am considering for most of our medals - the aim being to increase participation and enjoyment (and pace of play), as I think many people will happily take a net double/triple-bogey and move on rather than having to trudge back to the tee or get DQed.
		
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Maximum Score has its advantages. Although, when I play with one member every now and then, we reminisce about his 17 he had on 13th once in a medal. 

One of the funniest occasions was a member describing in great detail, to everyone in the bar, his 26 on the 12th just after completing his 1st round in the Club Champs. He was a great story teller, he described every shot, and every one was comic genius.

Sometimes, those big scores hurt at the time, but become fond memories once the dust settles. Just another way of grounding us and helping us laugh at our inadequacy


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## NearHull (Mar 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just had a novel thought about a potential way in which the handicap system could deal with an NR, without potentially banning or disciplining players via Committee.

If a player is deemed to NR (I.e. quit playing, rather than simply picking up on a disaster hole) without a reasonable excuse, this could simply be marked as a Round NR. This then subtracts 1.0 off their Index, and this doesn't return to normal until they submit a complete round in future. There would be an Asterix next to this handicap, so that it is flagged if they try to enter a competition that requires a low handicap limit.

Although I don't agree with Liverpoolphil that we just happily ignore people who NR because they have had a huff (I didn't mind at all under CONGU), I do share the feeling that disciplinary procedures are never a nice thing for a Committee to have to do. The idea above would at least make golfers think twice about quitting on a round.

*Obviously this thought doesn't resolve my original question about what Committee should do for now, if anything. So far, I don't think anyone has shared what will be happening at their clubs? So I presume either nothing has been decided yet, or perhaps clubs will do nothing and might risk dealing with individual cases as they arise subjectively?*

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I am the incoming Chairman of our Handicaps and Competitions Committee and I’ve little experience in this area ( the previous Chairman is staying on the committee to guide me).  I have been following this thread closely , hoping to pick up on what other clubs are doing.  It does appear to me that it’s going to be a bit of ‘suck it and see’.


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## rosecott (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			As a player I think that is a terrible idea and something that should never exist in medal competitions.

We have Stableford for "maximum score".   Medal is medal and should be left alone, your score is the exact amount of strokes you take under the rules.   Dealing with high scores is all part of the mental battle that often sees the weaker-willed players quit.
		
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Thankfully, the decision on whether to use Maximum Score should be taken by the Club Committee after discussing the pros and cons and not by the kneejerk reaction of one individual. This option was introduced in an attempt to eliminate NRs and also to assist in speeding up play - both very laudable objectives.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Maximum Score has its advantages. Although, when I play with one member every now and then, we reminisce about his 17 he had on 13th once in a medal.

One of the funniest occasions was a member describing in great detail, to everyone in the bar, his 26 on the 12th just after completing his 1st round in the Club Champs. He was a great story teller, he described every shot, and every one was comic genius.

Sometimes, those big scores hurt at the time, but become fond memories once the dust settles. Just another way of grounding us and helping us laugh at our inadequacy 

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Of course... we don't want to do away with those moments entirely!!


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Sorry but there is absolutely no place for it.

Medal is medal, the format for "maximum score" is Stableford.

Every individual has the right to put in an NR, and if you think it's a system that will make a marked difference to the speed of play you're barking up the wrong tree.

It's a really barmy idea.
		
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All are stroke-play formats, with medal & maximum score counting strokes and Stableford counting points (and par/bogey counting holes). And it actually does make a difference to pace of play, for the reasons already outlined. And who really enjoys watching and waiting as their playing partners trudge back to the tee, when they can pick up and move on without getting a DQ?

With competition results split into divisions, the max score has little to no effect of the low-mid handicappers, but makes a massive difference to higher handicappers, most of whom do not currently enter medals due to the intimidation factor, which max score largely removes.


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## rosecott (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Sorry but there is absolutely no place for it.

Medal is medal, the format for "maximum score" is Stableford.

Every individual has the right to put in an NR, and if you think it's a system that will make a marked difference to the speed of play you're barking up the wrong tree.

It's a really barmy idea.
		
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If you were on the committee when it was being discussed, I'm sure your reasoned argument would be taken into account.


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## Traminator (Mar 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			All are stroke-play formats, with medal & maximum score counting strokes and Stableford counting points (and par/bogey counting holes). And it actually does make a difference to pace of play, for the reasons already outlined. And who really enjoys watching and waiting as their playing partners trudge back to the tee, when they can pick up and move on without getting a DQ?

With competition results split into divisions, the max score has little to no effect of the low-mid handicappers, but makes a massive difference to higher handicappers, most of whom do not currently enter medals due to the intimidation factor, which max score largely removes.
		
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I think you're just making statements with little factual backing. 

High handicaps don't play in medals because of the "intimidation factor"....??? 
Seriously??? Where are you? Wet Lettuce golf club? 😅Come on, that's nonsense. 

Speed of play?? How many times do people ever actually have to "go back"?   How often does a golfer actually ever not find a ball and have to walk back?  And in reality there are a zillion other reasons for slow play, this is just a very uncommon situation that might add on 5 or 10 minutes to a few people maybe once or twice a year. 

I don't think anyone should have the authority to dumb down medals like this.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I think you're just making statements with little factual backing.

High handicaps don't play in medals because of the "intimidation factor"....???
Seriously??? Where are you? Wet Lettuce golf club? 😅Come on, that's nonsense.

Speed of play?? How many times do people ever actually have to "go back"?   How often does a golfer actually ever not find a ball and have to walk back?  And in reality there are a zillion other reasons for slow play, this is just a very uncommon situation that might add on 5 or 10 minutes to a few people maybe once or twice a year.

I don't think anyone should have the authority to dumb down medals like this.
		
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It's a statement that is backed up by talking to higher handicappers and also by the variance in the handicap distribution of entrants in medals and Stablefords - we get about half the number of 20+ hcp players in medals as we do in Stablefords, but about the same number of <20 hcp players; and a far greater percentage of NRs. The point is, players either go back or get DQd; many will choose the latter, so ultimately don't enter.

You do know it was The R&A and USGA who wrote maximum score into the rules, don't you? And again, they aren't medals; maximum score is a stroke-play format with similarities to both medal and Stableford.

But I expect you would have said the same about Stableford.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Ignoring the rest, what's the point of finishing off with such a stupid statement?

I've been playing since the early 80s, so clearly I've played a lot of every format.  Matchplay and Stableford allow players to pick up, medal is the only test where every single shot counts, yet you're trying to justify dumbing this element of the game down with hearsay.

Personally I'm a big matchplay fan, on a social day out give me Stableford.   But what I don't agree with is people in temporary roles trying to destroy over a hundred years of tradition just allegedly because of a handful of players who aren't very good.

Your responsibility is to the integrity of the sport, not dumbing it down for the tiny minority.
		
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Again, it's The R&A and USGA who have formally adopted the format for the reasons outlined: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/h...anges/maximum-score--form-of-stroke-play.html

And your arguments are the same as those used against Stableford. Hence my earlier comment.


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## Traminator (Mar 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Again, it's The R&A and USGA who have formally adopted the format for the reasons outlined: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/h...anges/maximum-score--form-of-stroke-play.html

And your arguments are the same as those used against Stableford. Hence my earlier comment.
		
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Nobody has "formally adopted the format", it is a suggestion. 




It is obvious to all of us that "picking up when you're out the hole" should be the default in friendly/matchplay/ Stableford golf when there's a need to keep things moving, and especially to help educate new players. 

Established Club medal competitions are definitely not the place to be introducing this though. That's throwing the whole integrity and point of the game out the window.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 24, 2021)

Maybe bifurication of handicapping is the answer. 

'Real golf' handicap and 'Mulligans and put me down for a 6' handicap


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## 2blue (Mar 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			WHS copes just fine with NRs and walkoffs as long as the score is returned, and by means of penalty scores if necessary.

The only issue I have is that the process on the platform requires manual calculations when it should be a simple drop-down list, i.e. delete intent or post penalty score: high/low/to-handicap. I submitted an enhancement request for this last year.

Dealing with persistent offenders will be for committees to decide. We intend to take a gentle educational approach initially, but members have been advised regarding potential sanctions. *These include suspension from regular or trophy competitions, exclusion from knockouts, suspension/freezing of index, requiring general play scores for reinstatement, etc. *These measures are new for us, but I know many clubs had such processes in place previously under UHS.
		
Click to expand...

Other than the bold this is pretty much what we are doing. Merely mentioning the possibility of potential sanctions rather than listing them as, like yourselves, we're going for the softly, softly approach with the H/cap Sec (we are a team of 3) handling all the 'No score returned' & walk-offs, so that we have clear consistency of approach & would also apply the 'General Score' rounds (old Supplementaries)
Your underlined is a good idea & would save time for him.


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## wjemather (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Imagine the day someone wins a 36 hole club "major", could have possibly scored a 10 on a hole in the morning but is allowed to pick up and write 8, then wins by 1.

And the committee can't look people in the eye, and justify it to 100 regular golfers with "well we had a couple of new 26 handicappers who were a bit nervous about entering the monthly medals..."

It's ludicrous.
		
Click to expand...

And there we have it, reductio ad absurdum. We are only talking about regular weekend/weekday comps, nothing more.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 25, 2021)

If you want to dumb down a stroke play event then just make it a Stableford....no need for dicking about with made up rules!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 25, 2021)

Interesting how a question in an "Expert" forum has turned into a completely separate debate straight out of the primary school playground.

I get it, some people don't like Maximum Score. I too would not like it used for something like the Club Champs, for example. If you feel strongly enough, write to the R&A, as they have had the audacity to feature it in the Rules of Golf.

It isn't the same as Stableford though, as Stableford has a lower Max Score (nett double). If anyone is appalled by Maximum Score, then why not equally or more appalled by Stableford? And, I am pretty sure the traditional Medal Event where every stroke counts will not disappear. If it does, then write to your Committee, or join it. 

PS some interesting comments previously about policies for NRs, cheers. The soft approach is definitely the way forward initially


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Imagine the day someone wins a 36 hole club "major", could have possibly scored a 10 on a hole in the morning but is allowed to pick up and write 8, then wins by 1.

And the committee can't look people in the eye, and justify it to 100 regular golfers with "well we had a couple of new 26 handicappers who were a bit nervous about entering the monthly medals..."

It's ludicrous.
		
Click to expand...

This confuses me, not hard. If you score a 10 you put in a 10 it is not for players to be putting in scores that they preferred rather than scored.

Its for the organisers to complete the necessary holes in the card, the player will have NRd so won't have won anything. 

If that's wrong then I and the county committee have this completely wrong, or I misunderstood the explanation.


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## jim8flog (Mar 25, 2021)

wjemather said:



			With competition results split into divisions, the max score has little to no effect of the low-mid handicappers, but makes a massive difference to higher handicappers, most of whom do not currently enter medals due to the intimidation factor, which max score largely removes.
		
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High handicappers not playing comps where are you getting that from?

Edited;- I have seen you later reply

I really do not think it makes much difference where I play simply because if you want a game on a medal Saturday (March to October) and want to book when the booking sheet opens you have to book in to the medal else all the slots have gone.


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## 2blue (Mar 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			High handicappers not playing comps where are you getting that from?

Edited;- I have seen you later reply

I really do not think it makes much difference where I play simply because if you want a game on a medal Saturday (March to October) and want to book when the booking sheet opens you have to book in to the medal else all the slots have gone.
		
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But don't folk book in but then not join the Comp? Not compulsory to play in the Comp is it?


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

Traminator said:



			It's not the "NR" discussion, it's the "Maximum score" discussion.

What the guys above are trying to promote is a system in MEDAL whereby you can pick up after a certain amount of shots on a hole but still record a lower score than you would have made.

Although they defend this Mickey Mouse system, when presented with an example of what will happen they call that "absurd".
		
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The max score is an option that can be used in every day qualifier comps and must be selected unless this has been changed on the ISV. It was never intended for use in major comps and the only time I have ever used the option is in "over 28 HC" comps.

I doubt if many clubs have or will use it. Under any other circumstance a pick will result in an NR.


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## wjemather (Mar 25, 2021)

2blue said:



			But don't folk book in but then not join the Comp? Not compulsory to play in the Comp is it?
		
Click to expand...

On occasion, tee booking policy mandates competition entry. This is often done to ensure everyone who wants to play in the competition is able to do so, with general booking only permitted later.


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## jim8flog (Mar 25, 2021)

2blue said:



			But don't folk book in but then not join the Comp? Not compulsory to play in the Comp is it?
		
Click to expand...

For our non optional comps it is sign up to the comp then choose your tee time, mainly affects Saturday comps.

For optional comps it is book your tee time and then sign in to the comp, normally via the IG app or PSI screen on the day, mainly affects weekday and Sunday comps.

For Saturdays it is not compulsory to play in the comp but can be difficult to get a tee slot if you are not. Non comp slots have to be booked via the proshop/office and tell them you are not playing in the comp.  Slots can be booked via the net at 8pm Friday 8 days in advance bui if you are booking in via the proshop this has to be done the following day earliest.

 As per wjemather priority is given to those playing the comp.  We do have another course that players can book if they want to avoid playing in the medal and we alternate medals between the 2.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

Just to update those who might be interested, the Max Score option in comps seems to be removed from my ISV (V1) whether this is now no longer an option as it was under CONGU I cant say as I haven't looked at the various new WHS rules on the subject.


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## wjemather (Mar 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Just to update those who might be interested, the Max Score option in comps seems to be removed from my ISV (V1) whether this is now no longer an option as it was under CONGU I cant say as I haven't looked at the various new WHS rules on the subject.
		
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Yes, I expected to be able to just get it enabled in ClubV1, but had to submit an enhancement request. Still waiting for it though...
I can think of no reason why Club Systems didn't have the option all ready to go, given it's a listed "authorized format of play" for both competitions and casual/general play rounds.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, I expected to be able to just get it enabled in ClubV1, but had to submit an enhancement request. Still waiting for it though...
I can think of no reason why Club Systems didn't have the option all ready to go, given it's a listed "authorized format of play" for both competitions and casual/general play rounds.
		
Click to expand...

Especially as it was available before - I suspect it was another "EG didn't ask on the spec" moment.


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## USER1999 (Mar 25, 2021)

I have long been an advocate of separate comps in medal. Old school div 1 and 2, medal, div 3 and above stableford. There is zero reason why anyone off 13 and above needs to finish a medal score. It's time consuming. If you are lucky enough to hit your second close, and then have to wait while your playing partner hits 9 shots before you get a chance to putt, by which time you are rushing, it's bollocks. I have been in this position in a 36 hole medal, and it sucked.
Cat 1 and 2 (gone, but much lamented) rarely hit much over a double, in my experience.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I have long been an advocate of separate comps in medal. Old school div 1 and 2, medal, div 3 and above stableford. There is zero reason why anyone off 13 and above needs to finish a medal score. It's time consuming. If you are lucky enough to hit your second close, and then have to wait while your playing partner hits 9 shots before you get a chance to putt, by which time you are rushing, it's bollocks. I have been in this position in a 36 hole medal, and it sucked.
Cat 1 and 2 (gone, but much lamented) rarely hit much over a double, in my experience.
		
Click to expand...

Always sensible IMO to have divisions


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

Just to get one or two peoples blood boiling who question the max score option you should see the MLS option (most likely score) that can be used in Ireland and other parts of the world - see page 13/14 https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf#page20.


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## rulefan (Mar 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Just to get one or two peoples blood boiling who question the max score option you should see the MLS option (most likely score) that can be used in Ireland and other parts of the world - see page 13/14 https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf#page20.  

Click to expand...

Did you mean G3.3/1 on page 12 ?


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Did you mean G3.3/1 on page 12 ?
		
Click to expand...

Yep should have checked the page the link went to


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Just to get one or two peoples blood boiling who question the max score option you should see the MLS option (most likely score) that can be used in Ireland and other parts of the world - see page 13/14 https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf#page20.  

Click to expand...

This is sure to come to.the UK sometime in the not too distant future,  and in my view would be a good thing.


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## wjemather (Mar 25, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			This is sure to come to.the UK sometime in the not too distant future,  and in my view would be a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

From what I hear, yes. Plus matchplay and betterball being authorised formats for handicapping.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2021)

wjemather said:



			From what I hear, yes. Plus matchplay and betterball being authorised formats for handicapping.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but what ? Matchplay and Betterball formats for handicapping ! How can that be done


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## rulefan (Mar 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what ? Matchplay and Betterball formats for handicapping ! How can that be done
		
Click to expand...

By using MLS?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what ? Matchplay and Betterball formats for handicapping ! How can that be done
		
Click to expand...

Guess you score if you dont hole out


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			By using MLS?
		
Click to expand...




Swango1980 said:



			Guess you score if you dont hole out
		
Click to expand...

Sounds great - can just imagine , I’m not going to hole out on this hole so my most likely score will be a 3 👍 perfect 

Utterly ridiculous to use Matchplay for handicaps 

But with the decisions they have made of the last number of years it’s something that wouldn’t surprise me


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## SammmeBee (Mar 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sounds great - can just imagine , I’m not going to hole out on this hole so my most likely score will be a 3 👍 perfect

Utterly ridiculous to use Matchplay for handicaps

But with the decisions they have made of the last number of years it’s something that wouldn’t surprise me
		
Click to expand...

Just something else to pander to those who think golf is too hard - golf is hard - just get better or deal with what LOFT you’ve got...


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## rulefan (Mar 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sounds great - can just imagine , I’m not going to hole out on this hole so my most likely score will be a 3 👍 perfect
		
Click to expand...

Well done, anyone less honest would have put down 2.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Well done, anyone less honest would have put down 2.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be so hasty. He had a 4 inch putt for a 2, but picked up and gave himself a 3 as that still won him the hole in match play. Got a big competition coming up, so wants a nice handicap increase before he plays it


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## rulefan (Mar 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Don't be so hasty. He had a 4 inch putt for a 2, but picked up and gave himself a 3 as that still won him the hole in match play. Got a big competition coming up, so wants a nice handicap increase before he plays it 

Click to expand...

Didn't realise that posters here could be so devious.


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## 2blue (Mar 26, 2021)

Ok.... so both he & the guys confirming his score are cheats.....  but, as always, it's hard to get round that.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2021)

2blue said:



			Ok.... so both he & the guys confirming his score are cheats.....  but, as always, it's hard to get round that.
		
Click to expand...

OK, his putt for a 2 was 5-10 feet. His opponent could only get a 4, so he knocked his ball back. He cannot guarantee he would have got the 2, so they both decide that he could well have missed the putt, and stick down a 3. This happens on 6 or 7 holes, each time they assume he would have had a 2 putt. In reality, you'd expect him to probably have made at least a few of those one putts. So, his final score is several shots higher than it would have been had he holed out, but on each hole him and his opponent made a reasonable assessment that it could not be assumed he would make the putt.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sounds great - can just imagine , I’m not going to hole out on this hole so my most likely score will be a 3 👍 perfect

Utterly ridiculous to use Matchplay for handicaps

But with the decisions they have made of the last number of years it’s something that wouldn’t surprise me
		
Click to expand...

Then there should be no handicap match play tournaments and scores from such play as not formed part of the handicap assessment process.

The rest of the world have been doing it for years and see no problem.with it.


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## wjemather (Mar 26, 2021)

It's all too easy to be critical and dismissive of things when you have zero knowledge of how they work or the reasons behind them. There are many golfers who very rarely play in individual qualifying competitions and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play). Widening the scope allows more people to have more accurate handicaps, especially social golfers.


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)
		
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That is incorrect. 

A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant. 

And who has "zero knowledge"? 
Players like me who have played at every level over the last 40 plus years? 

I'd argue anyone wishing to promote some of the Mickey Mouse ways of submitting a fake score are doing more damage than those who value the integrity of the game over the whims of a handful of beginners.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Then there should be no handicap match play tournaments and scores from such play as not formed part of the handicap assessment process.

The rest of the world have been doing it for years and see no problem.with it.
		
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And the rest of the world appear to have handicaps that dont travel very well and are not represented of the players ability from what I recall 

When you have a format where putts are given etc and holes not completed and even the the round not fully completed now can that go towards your handicap. 

People want to enjoy the game , enjoy the battle in a Matchplay - if we start going down the route of all formats going towards handicaps then people will lose the enjoyment 

It’s the same with 4BBB


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2021)

Ultimately, a handicap is calculated based on precise numbers (adjusted gross score, course rating, slope, etc.). Currently, in UK, we know the Adjusted Gross Score is accurate because players must hole out. There is no debate. However, by opening the system up to allowing scores to be guessed at can NEVER be considered more accurate, or even have the same level of accuracy as a KNOWN score. Therefore, accuracy will be lost in the handicap calculation if scores can be guessed at. And, when you throw subjectivity, individual ability into the mix, and what formats players generally play, then it is inevitable a minority of golfers at least could have very false handicaps. If you were an elite amateur and picked up 20 yards from the green, how would your guessed score change from a 40 handicapper in the same position? How much variation would a 40 handicapper show if he holed out 100 times? If you were a standard 15ish handicapper with good short game, what score would you put down if you picked up next to the green, compared to a 15 handicapper who has the chipping and putting yips?

So, in my opinion, allowing scores to be guessed certainly does not improve accuracy, and lowers the integrity of the system in that sense. The balance is, if you do allow scores to be guessed then more players will get handicaps, and more scores count towards those handicaps. Personally, I'd rather not have a system where scores are guessed, it just adds more arguments and less trust in handicaps (as this thread now indicates). I'd rather have competition guidelines set up to ensure the organiser is happy with the Scoring History of a player. If not, they don't play. The fact that General Play rounds should be much more easy to submit, I don't think having such a limited Scoring History should be such a barrier anymore.


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2021)

Wished I had left this one alone


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## wjemather (Mar 26, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That is incorrect.

A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant.

And who has "zero knowledge"?
Players like me who have played at every level over the last 40 plus years?

I'd argue anyone wishing to promote some of the Mickey Mouse ways of submitting a fake score are doing more damage than those who value the integrity of the game over the whims of a handful of beginners.
		
Click to expand...

Rule 2.1a - the only authorized formats of play are individual stroke play; i.e. 4BBB is not an approved format of play for handicapping.

Why do you insist on making assertions about these things when it's clear you either haven't read or haven't understood the rules of handicapping?


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Rule 2.1a - the only authorized formats of play are individual stroke play; i.e. 4BBB is not an approved format of play for handicapping.

Why do you insist on making assertions about these things when it's clear you either haven't read or haven't understood the rules of handicapping?
		
Click to expand...

You are incorrect.

A player may not submit a score for handicap if he is playing in an officially organised matchplay or 4BBB competition.

However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay. 

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant.

It is you who doesn't fully understand.


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## wjemather (Mar 26, 2021)

Traminator said:



			You are incorrect.

A player may not submit a score for handicap if he is playing in an officially organised matchplay or 4BBB competition.

However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant.

It is you who doesn't fully understand.
		
Click to expand...

You are changing your argument, but you are still wrong. (G2.1/2)


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			You are changing your argument, but you are still wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not changing anything.

You said, Post 95:
"and who's *social golf* is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)."

I said, Post 96:
"A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant". 

I said, Post 101:
"However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant."

You have not fully understood the whole meaning of the wording.   

And if you still want to jump up and down with your fingers in your ears whilst shouting LA LA LA LA... Consider this scenario. 

John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo.   On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me." 
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same." 

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer 🍻.   John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap. 

Whilst they were doing that, Paul kept track of the 4 friends' weekly matchplay score which he and John happened to lose 2&1.

So what you, alone, are saying, is that despite John and Ringo doing exactly the right thing, because Paul kept a mental score of their friendly match, suddenly John and Ringo's cards are no longer valid....?????

That is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous and you clearly haven't grasped it properly.


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## wjemather (Mar 26, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I'm not changing anything.

You said, Post 95:
"and who's *social golf* is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)."

I said, Post 96:
"A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant".

I said, Post 101:
"However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant."

You have not fully understood the whole meaning of the wording.  

And if you still want to jump up and down with your fingers in your ears whilst shouting LA LA LA LA... Consider this scenario.

John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo.   On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me."
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same."

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer 🍻.   John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap.

Whilst they were doing that, Paul kept track of the 4 friends' weekly matchplay score which he and John happened to lose 2&1.

So what you, alone, are saying, is that despite John and Ringo doing exactly the right thing, because Paul kept a mental score of their friendly match, suddenly John and Ringo's cards are no longer valid....?????

That is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous and you clearly haven't grasped it properly.
		
Click to expand...

Just how far do you want to shift your goalposts. I'll be ignoring you now. Bye.


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Just how far do you want to shift your goalposts. I'll be ignoring you now. Bye.
		
Click to expand...

Oh jeez, that's very mature.

All those guys in your club who you told they can't put in cards for handicap...you need to go back and tell them you were wrong.


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## 2blue (Mar 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



*OK, his putt for a 2 was 5-10 feet*. His opponent could only get a 4, so he knocked his ball back. *He cannot guarantee he would have got the 2, so they both decide that he could well have missed the putt, and stick down a 3. This happens on 6 or 7 holes, each time they assume he would have had a 2 putt. In reality, you'd expect him to probably have made at least a few of those one-putts.* So, his final score is several shots higher than it would have been had he holed out, but on each hole him and his opponent made a reasonable assessment that it could not be assumed he would make the putt.
		
Click to expand...

Yers, I'd agree that it's reasonable to expect he'd have holed at least a couple of those......  so, simply, that's how they should have been scored & the system works.


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## rulefan (Mar 26, 2021)

Traminator said:



			John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo.   On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me."
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same."

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer 🍻.   John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap.
		
Click to expand...

When and how did they pre-register?

But -
_The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, *organized *event with other players.
Registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.
Authorized formats of play are: Individual stroke_


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			When and how did they pre-register?

But -
_The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, *organized *event with other players._

_Authorized formats of play are: Individual stroke_

Click to expand...

You ask how did they register? 
 Yes, clearly they need to pre-register. John and Ringo did it on the IG App. 

The bit in italics refers to the option for clubs to decree that regular roll ups must count their scores if they're playing by the rules, eg no gimmes.


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## rulefan (Mar 26, 2021)

Traminator said:



			The bit in italics refers to the option for clubs to decree that regular roll ups must count their scores if they're playing by the rules, eg no gimmes.
		
Click to expand...

Where does it say that?

CONGU uses the words_ 'organized competitions’ in an acceptable format. _The 'competition'  is a 4BBB match. How can the Committee accept the scores if CONCU has declared that the competition format  is not acceptable?


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## Traminator (Mar 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Where does it say that?

CONGU uses the words_ 'organized competitions’ in an acceptable format. _The 'competition'  is a 4BBB match. How can the Committee accept the scores if CONCU has declared that the competition format  is not acceptable?
		
Click to expand...

Turning up for a friendly game is not an organised competition.

In a friendly game we can put in GP scores by following the correct procedure and rules of individual strokeplay.   If we additionally score a casual 4 ball match alongside that, so what.

What you quoted is what is being imposed on some roll-ups, ie no need for players to formally and individually pre-register for a GP round as their weekly organised Stableford with no gimmes is now recognised as qualifying.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Ultimately, a handicap is calculated based on precise numbers (adjusted gross score, course rating, slope, etc.). Currently, in UK, we know the Adjusted Gross Score is accurate because players must hole out. There is no debate. However, by opening the system up to allowing scores to be guessed at can NEVER be considered more accurate, or even have the same level of accuracy as a KNOWN score. Therefore, accuracy will be lost in the handicap calculation if scores can be guessed at. And, when you throw subjectivity, individual ability into the mix, and what formats players generally play, then it is inevitable a minority of golfers at least could have very false handicaps. If you were an elite amateur and picked up 20 yards from the green, how would your guessed score change from a 40 handicapper in the same position? How much variation would a 40 handicapper show if he holed out 100 times? If you were a standard 15ish handicapper with good short game, what score would you put down if you picked up next to the green, compared to a 15 handicapper who has the chipping and putting yips?

So, in my opinion, allowing scores to be guessed certainly does not improve accuracy, and lowers the integrity of the system in that sense. The balance is, if you do allow scores to be guessed then more players will get handicaps, and more scores count towards those handicaps. Personally, I'd rather not have a system where scores are guessed, it just adds more arguments and less trust in handicaps (as this thread now indicates). I'd rather have competition guidelines set up to ensure the organiser is happy with the Scoring History of a player. If not, they don't play. The fact that General Play rounds should be much more easy to submit, I don't think having such a limited Scoring History should be such a barrier anymore.
		
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I disagree fundamentally with this.  At the moment a member may play over 100 rounds a year a large proportion of which are 4 ball or match play competitions (opens, national matchplay),  but only ever enter three club singles stroke play comps.  How can this members handicap ever be described as accurate.  Indeed I would bet the vast majority of golfers play at least 4 times the number of non qualifying rounds as they do qualifying.  In my view it would go along way to solving the banditory accusations.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the rest of the world appear to have handicaps that dont travel very well and are not represented of the players ability from what I recall

QUOTE]
There is a very simple exclamation for that.  The rest of the world were operating a similar system to WHS and therefore were using slope.  So a playing coming over from the states with HI of 18 to play at my club would be forced to play off 18. The same player would now get a CH of 22.
		
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## D-S (Mar 27, 2021)

I cannot understand how matchplay scores can ever be taken into consideration for handicap scores, I believe in the vast majority of jurisdictions that they aren’t, with the huge exception of the USA,.
You can simply look at a poll in ‘The Lounge’ in the Matchplay Tactics’ thread where 70% plus say they they don’t play the course, they play the man. The very antithesis of the handicap statement which says the player should try to achieve the best possible score on every hole they play.


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## wjemather (Mar 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			I cannot understand how matchplay scores can ever be taken into consideration for handicap scores, I believe in the vast majority of jurisdictions that they aren’t, with the huge exception of the USA,.
You can simply look at a poll in ‘The Lounge’ in the Matchplay Tactics’ thread where 70% plus say they they don’t play the course, they play the man. The very antithesis of the handicap statement which says the player should try to achieve the best possible score on every hole they play.
		
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The United States (and other countries under the jurisdiction of the USGA), Canada, New Zealand and South Africa are the countries that I know of where is match play and fourball are authorized formats of play.


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## D-S (Mar 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The United States (and other countries under the jurisdiction of the USGA), Canada, New Zealand and South Africa are the countries that I know of where is match play and fourball are authorized formats of play.
		
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And elsewhere like Europe, the EGA they are not.


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## rulefan (Mar 27, 2021)

Ireland are trialling it.


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## D-S (Mar 28, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Ireland are trialling it.
		
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It’ll be fascinating to see if they become the first European country to adopt it, interested to see how they judge its success.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2021)

Find it incredible that a round where you potentially may not put the ball in the hole once in 18 hole but can go towards a handicap based on “guess score”


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Find it incredible that a round where you potentially may not put the ball in the hole once in 18 hole but can go towards a handicap based on “guess score”
		
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At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?
		
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It is a fair point. I have played with people who have pretty much picked up after their tee shot in at least 7 or 8 holes, if their 3 partners have flushed it. Perhaps I have been that guy on occasion. Doesn't seem right to guess a score for official purposes. If I was to pick up after my tee shot, what would I guess for my score on a par 4 for example? Nett double? Yet, perhaps I could well have beaten that if I felt I needed to stay in hole as I had no partners to rely on.

Same goes for fourball match play.

Even in singles matchplay, if my opponent hits a horrific drive, and gives me the hole before I even play my second, massive guesswork as to what I would have ended up with. Could be anything from birdie to double figures.

And, in match play, if the match is over before the 18th, you may well just have to rely on guessed scores after the match is over. Player wins 8&7, thet both walk off course, what are the guesses scores? Bearing the mind the player who won could have been on form of their lives, and could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?


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## wjemather (Mar 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It is a fair point. I have played with people who have pretty much picked up after their tee shot in at least 7 or 8 holes, if their 3 partners have flushed it. Perhaps I have been that guy on occasion. Doesn't seem right to guess a score for official purposes. If I was to pick up after my tee shot, what would I guess for my score on a par 4 for example? Nett double? Yet, perhaps I could well have beaten that if I felt I needed to stay in hole as I had no partners to rely on.

Same goes for fourball match play.

Even in singles matchplay, if my opponent hits a horrific drive, and gives me the hole before I even play my second, massive guesswork as to what I would have ended up with. Could be anything from birdie to double figures.

And, in match play, if the match is over before the 18th, you may well just have to rely on guessed scores after the match is over. Player wins 8&7, thet both walk off course, what are the guesses scores? Bearing the mind the player who won could have been on form of their lives, and could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?
		
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Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."


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## D-S (Mar 28, 2021)

If you don’t change your tactics in 4BB (strokeplay or matchplay) from individual strokeplay rounds based on your playing partners position on the hole then you’re not playing it right.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."
		
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Are these most likely scores applied for scratch golfers and 54 handicappers?

If I was 20 yards from green should I add 3 shots, but 400 yards from green add 4 shots for added robustness?

If the hole not played at all, just nett par?

I can see the arguments for and against, so not having a go at anyone. I'm just edging on the side of it doesn't feel right to me that players can guess scores. I know what happens when subjectivity comes into certain situations.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."
		
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What happens if the whole is conceded and you haven’t even taken your second shot onto the green yet ? 

It’s a complete joke if anything like above is used


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## wjemather (Mar 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Are these most likely scores applied for scratch golfers and 54 handicappers?

If I was 20 yards from green should I add 3 shots, but 400 yards from green add 4 shots for added robustness?

If the hole not played at all, just nett par?

I can see the arguments for and against, so not having a go at anyone. I'm just edging on the side of it doesn't feel right to me that players can guess scores. I know what happens when subjectivity comes into certain situations.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			What happens if the whole is conceded and you haven’t even taken your second shot onto the green yet ?

It’s a complete joke if anything like above is used
		
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The Rules of Handicapping already includes provision for "net double-bogey" for holes started but not completed in stroke play. As I see it, MLS just extends that concept for holes not completed where the player is likely to beat net double-bogey.  "Net par" for holes not played is already a provision of WHS.

Yes, the guidelines are the same regardless of handicap, but ability is taken into account. It's important to note they are guidelines only, and I'd say they should be applicable in most situations. There will undoubtedly be situations when more than the recommended strokes should be added (e.g. hard-breaking downhill four-footer) and the system allows that (as far as I understand it). Like much of the new Rules of Golf/Handicapping, it seems even more reliant on individual integrity than the systems we have been used to.


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## D-S (Mar 28, 2021)

[ Like much of the new Rules of Golf/Handicapping, it seems even more reliant on individual integrity than the systems we have been used to.[/QUOTE]
 ......and if if the results are anything like what happens in the USA then what were once handicaps that you could rely on for club and inter club handicapped competitions will become a thing of the past.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?
		
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Unlikely will though,  as its doubtful that it will be one of your top 8 scores.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?
		
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How, I would like to know, is the current position better.


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## rulefan (Mar 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			It’ll be fascinating to see if they become the first European country to adopt it, interested to see how they judge its success.
		
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That's why it is a trial. Ireland (or CONGU for that matter) doesn't have to accept it.
It's done elsewhere because that is traditional.


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Unlikely will though,  as its doubtful that it will be one of your top 8 scores.
		
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There's no way of knowing that with concessions and gimmes.
It could kick a counting score out if that score is #20...might have an effect on the Index.
As has been said, if I have a 10 footer for the half I'm not worrying about the 5 footer coming back if I miss
Matchplay is a totally different mindset.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			How, I would like to know, is the current position better.
		
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The current system typically required players to submit 3 "proper" scores (so to speak), before players could enter match play competitions. Perhaps some clubs put even bigger restrictions on entry to these, such as playing a minimum number of club comps? If there was clear evidence, then the Committee could always review handicaps for players cleaning up in match play comps.

I don't think that was a bad way to do it. Having players guess their scores instead just doesn't feel like it is better, in my view.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The current system typically required players to submit 3 "proper" scores (so to speak), before players could enter match play competitions. Perhaps some clubs put even bigger restrictions on entry to these, such as playing a minimum number of club comps? If there was clear evidence, then the Committee could always review handicaps for players cleaning up in match play comps.

I don't think that was a bad way to do it. Having players guess their scores instead just doesn't feel like it is better, in my view.
		
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I find it difficult to understand how you see a handicap garnered fro just 3 rounds in a year  is more accurate than one garnered from maybe up to 100

To me it seems considerably better than ignoring scores pretty much altogether from scores in away opens.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I find it difficult to understand how you see a handicap garnered fro just 3 rounds in a year  is more accurate than one garnered from maybe up to 100

To me it seems considerably better than ignoring scores pretty much altogether from scores in away opens.
		
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See my earlier comments for my views


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?
		
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Depends on the quality of the beer.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The current system typically required players to submit 3 "proper" scores (so to speak), before players could enter match play competitions. Perhaps some clubs put even bigger restrictions on entry to these, such as playing a minimum number of club comps? If there was clear evidence, then the Committee could always review handicaps for players cleaning up in match play comps.

I don't think that was a bad way to do it. Having players guess their scores instead just doesn't feel like it is better, in my view.
		
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The min 3 cards, as far as I can see, apart for initial HC had disappeared. It will be up to clubs conditions of comp to decide on.


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Depends on the quality of the beer.
		
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Can't remember what they had but it went down well


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The min 3 cards, as far as I can see, apart for initial HC had disappeared. It will be up to clubs conditions of comp to decide on.
		
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Apologies, I'm sort of referring to pre WHS, and anticipating competition organisers will generally continue this entry requirement.


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## rulefan (Mar 29, 2021)

I can confirm that scores can be be returned for handicapping if four players play together regularly (eg every Monday morning) but play a 4BBB match. *Providing* they pre-register, all putt out and play in conformance with the RoG (eg. no advice to partner).


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## USER1999 (Apr 8, 2021)

This explains why some Americans never hole out, but seem to be putting a card in. They obviously knock it to a couple of feet, and pick up, adding one to their score. Seems odd to me. I have seen many people 4 putt from 2 feet.


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## jim8flog (Apr 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			This explains why some Americans never hole out, but seem to be putting a card in. They obviously knock it to a couple of feet, and pick up, adding one to their score. Seems odd to me. I have seen many people 4 putt from 2 feet.
		
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 It does not have to be 2 ft it can be off the green and add 4 shots

USGA Rules of Handicapping includes Rule 3.3 Most Likely Score 

For more info
https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html


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## rulefan (Apr 8, 2021)

However CONGU has a different version of 3.3
*
3.3 When a Hole is Started But Player Does Not Hole Out*
When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.

Notes:
1. If the format of play does not allow a player to pick-up their ball before holing
out, for example an individual gross score or net score stroke play
competition, the player will be disqualified from the competition.
2. In a Maximum Score format of stroke play, there may be situations where a
player has not reached their net double bogey score before reaching the
maximum score as determined by the Terms of the Competition. In such
cases, the player should record either a net double bogey or zero Stableford
points (see Rules of Golf, Rule 21.2).


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 25, 2021)

Had our first medal yesterday. 162 entered and 27 N/R’d. Is that the norm?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 25, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Had our first medal yesterday. 162 entered and 27 N/R’d. Is that the norm?
		
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How many NRs were complete no return of card, or players stopping playing the final holes? A no return for not completing a hole is no issue as far as handicaps are concerned


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