# Hand path vs Shaft path



## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Does anyone make a conscious effort to flatten the shaft path (to the hand path) on the downswing?  Is this something you've ever been taught?


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

K?


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2013)

I have no idea what you are talking about but since I don't make a conscious effort to do anything during my swing I can safely answer your questions with "no and no".


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## Region3 (Nov 22, 2013)

I don't. I've always had my hands higher at impact than at address, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

With all the forces trying to pull the club away from you in the downswing it must take a fair bit of strength in the wrists to keep the angle between club and arms the same as it was at address.


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## SimonC (Nov 22, 2013)

This is something I need to work on, I pull the handle too much on my downswing which steepens the shaft. I posted a video on another forum where I was told I need to lead with the right elbow & not with the hands.


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			K?

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This...



HawkeyeMS said:



			I have no idea what you are talking about but since I don't make a conscious effort to do anything during my swing I can safely answer your questions with "no and no".
		
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..... And this


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Apologies for the confusion.







On picture 3 (top of the backswing) to picture 4 (downswing) the path of the hands is the same, but the shaft path is flattened a little (I think).


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2013)

The only thing I conciously try and do while swining is stay on my feet. 
The duration of the downswing is so small that I am amazed that anyone manages to think anything, let alone enact it.


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## CMAC (Nov 22, 2013)

your heads getting full of spaghetti..........


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2013)

The ubiquitous Mark Crosfield is banging on about this regularly. I just take the club back, swing it back down, try and make contact and go off and look for it without any extra swing thoughts over the 52 currently going through my head over any given shot


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

CMAC said:



			your heads getting full of spaghetti..........
		
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Is it?  Do you not think it's possible to practise a move, then ingrain it so you don't need to think about it then validate this via video recordings and tweak accordingly.  

Do you remember the first time behind the wheel of a car?  Spaghetti central.

I can now drink coffee and sing power ballads whilst driving.  Go me.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Apologies for the confusion.







On picture 3 (top of the backswing) to picture 4 (downswing) the path of the hands is the same, but the shaft path is flattened a little (I think).
		
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Thanks. Still no and no though


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Anyway, this is just a discussion- not saying I'm working on this.  Just have a sad interest in swing mechanics, that's all.  If anyone doesn't share my enthusiasm for this geeky aspect of the game then that's OK.  I just get a little bored of the "go out and play.... just swing the club back and forward..... why are you making it hard on yourself.... go practise your short game" comments.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Thanks. Still no and no though 

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## Region3 (Nov 22, 2013)

I misunderstood in my original reply 

The only thing I think about which is slightly relevant is not to launch at the ball with my shoulders which causes the shaft big steepness and cutting across the ball.


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## JamesR (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Apologies for the confusion.







On picture 3 (top of the backswing) to picture 4 (downswing) the path of the hands is the same, but the shaft path is flattened a little (I think).
		
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but isn't that just the neutral swing path?
If you draw a line down the shaft to the ground it will be pretty close to the ball.

I think it comes naturally if your sequencing is correct from the top of the back swing into the down swing (but down quote me on that).

When I have a lesson one of the first things Chris does is draw a line, on screen, from the ball through my right elbow, I think that is pretty much what Rose's shaft angle is on that picture (no 4). That I believe is your swing plane (again, don't quote me. I just swing and he tries to put it right, I don't understand it until he shows me what's wrong).


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

CMAC said:



			your head's getting full of spaghetti..........
		
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With the heads/head's adjustment, my thoughts exactly!

And driving while drinking (anything) is extremely dangerous imo!

I'd suggest you concentrate on making good contact consistently before considering this sort of thing. These are much more 'individual traits' that are relatively unimportant for 99.99% of golfers imo!


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## CMAC (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Is it?  *Do you not think it's possible to practise a move, then ingrain it so you don't need to think about it then validate this via video recordings and tweak accordingly.* 

Do you remember the first time behind the wheel of a car?  Spaghetti central.

I can now drink coffee and sing power ballads whilst driving.  Go me.
		
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yes I do, not sure what your point is?


I'm assuming (you know what that means) you are trying to stop casting/throwing from the top? Maybe its the terminology you used in the OP thats confused us all


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I'd suggest you concentrate on making good contact consistently before *considering *this sort of thing. These are much more 'individual traits' that are relatively unimportant for 99.99% of golfers imo!
		
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What do you mean by this?


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## garyinderry (Nov 22, 2013)

is this not a recommended move with driving in particular?


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## Junior (Nov 22, 2013)

is this what is called being "laid off" ?  I think you have to be careful flattening the shaft as it could get stuck behind you leading to flippy hands !!

Personally, I just try to take both the hands and club up and down on the same plane a'la Steve Stricker.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Junior said:



			is this what is called being "laid off" ?
		
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Not sure.  As far as I was aware, if the shaft plane flattened on the backswing, it was classed as "laid off" and often resulted in a huge over the top move to 'correct it'.  

But I think this is a little different when it's initiated on the downswing.  Not sure to be honest!!!


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

Hand path?  Swing path?  Shaft path? 

Up the garden path?  You're on the wrong path.  Stop being path-etic!


No wonder you're off 20 if you think this is something to consider!   I would say that having a detailed understanding of hand and shaft paths is entirely irrelevant to having a half decent round of golf.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Hand path?  Swing path?  Shaft path? 

Up the garden path?  You're on the wrong path.  Stop being path-etic!


No wonder you're off 20 if you think this is something to consider!   I would say that having a detailed understanding of hand and shaft paths is entirely irrelevant to having a half decent round of golf.
		
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Forthright as ever Snelly :rofl:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Does anyone make a conscious effort to flatten the shaft path (to the hand path) on the downswing?  Is this something you've ever been taught?
		
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If you are thinking about this during your swing then there are fundamental issues elsewhere that you should be correcting first. 

Swing back, swing through......simple turning motion  :thup:


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## guest100718 (Nov 22, 2013)

I know what you mean , if you look at most Pro swings from down the line you can see that in transition there is a marked flattening of the club. 

I have noticed as my swing has improved in going from an OTT move to something that looks like a half decent swing there is also a flattening out of the club as i move into the downswing. it's not something I have practiced though, its juts a by product of a better swing.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I just get a little bored of the "go out and play.... just swing the club back and forward..... why are you making it hard on yourself.... go practise your short game" comments.
		
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There is actually a very good reason people say these things....it's because if you adopt them, chances are you will play better golf. 

Paralysis by analysis. It's fine for pros that can spend hours on their swings but we are all weekend fun golfers so we have to work on the simple basics  :thup:


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## richy (Nov 22, 2013)

How very dare you talk about the mechanics of the golf swing on a golf forum


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Hand path?  Swing path?  Shaft path? 

Up the garden path?  You're on the wrong path.  Stop being path-etic!


No wonder you're off 20 if you think this is something to consider!   I would say that having a detailed understanding of hand and shaft paths is entirely irrelevant to having a half decent round of golf.
		
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Helpful, thanks.  Do you think your shaft plane is flatter on the downswing than the backswing?


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

richy said:



			How very dare you talk about the mechanics of the golf swing on a golf forum
		
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 I know!

I just since it's nearly the weekend that I would do something wacky instead of the usual "NEEEEWWWW SHINNEEEEYS", "What bag of tees should I buy" or "Can anyone recommend a pro in North Googinsville" threads.....


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

drive4show said:



			There is actually a very good reason people say these things....it's because if you adopt them, chances are you will play better golf. 

Paralysis by analysis. It's fine for pros that can spend hours on their swings but we are all weekend fun golfers so we have to work on the simple basics  :thup:
		
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:thup:

So without deviating too much from the forum topic, I just  _swing back_, then _swing through_.  Is that it?


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Apologies for the confusion.







On picture 3 (top of the backswing) to picture 4 (downswing) the path of the hands is the same, but the shaft path is flattened a little (I think).
		
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virtuocity said:



			Is it?  Do you not think it's possible to practise a move, then ingrain it so you don't need to think about it then validate this via video recordings and tweak accordingly.  

Do you remember the first time behind the wheel of a car?  Spaghetti central.

I can now drink coffee and sing power ballads whilst driving.  Go me.
		
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Yes, it is possible to practice. In the pictures the golfer is creating lag, by "dropping" the club behind his right hip.

This is something I'm currently working on. going back many months, my swing and swing path was all about power, hit the little white ball as hard as possible, to do this I would start my swing by turning my shoulders, my right shoulder would come forward, my arms would come away from my body, the club would be cast out and the swing path was massively out to in, the result 8/10 times was a mahoosive slice.

Now to try and get an in to out path, I've slowed down a lot, the first action on the down swing is to drop the club to what feels behind my right hip, I keep my left arm in tight across my chest, then as I transfer my weight, the club comes inside, I unhinge my wrists, make contact with the ball, let the club follow through for a full release away and what feels like slightly right of the target line.

It's working for me, I'm no longer trying to power the ball away, now my swing is slower and I just swing through the ball, the result is more consistent striking and straighter if not slightly drawn ball flight.


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			:thup:

So without deviating too much from the forum topic, I just  _swing back_, then _swing through_.  Is that it?
		
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Or, to phrase it another way.

What would you learn if someone did make a concious effort to flatten the shaft path?

If you make a good turn to the top, then sequence your downswing in the correct order (I.E From the ground up), the shaft will move naturally, on plane, back to the ball, and through to finish. The how and the why don't matter IMHO.

Repeating the feat consistently is when it gets tricky.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			:thup:

So without deviating too much from the forum topic, I just  _swing back_, then _swing through_.  Is that it?
		
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Yep!  Try it  

ps....don't forget to make sure you are looking at the ball at impact.  It really is that simple!


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Helpful, thanks.  Do you think your shaft plane is flatter on the downswing than the backswing?
		
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I am glad you find my advice useful.  Sometimes the truth, however painful, can be just what is needed.  :thup:


Is the shaft plane the same as the swing plane?  If so then I understand what it is and if it isn't I don't understand what you are talking about.  Is it flatter on the downswing?  I don't know.



In a wider sense, I am not trying to be hurtful or mean to you.  I just think that you are looking at a minor detail here that probably won't help you at all.  It looks like you've had a good year in coming down nearly 3.5 shots but what is it that is causing your scores to be high?  Off the tee? Irons? Pitching?  Chipping?  Putting?  There must be something not quite right?  Something more fundamental?   Changing the angle of your swing is pretty major surgery and there must be a way to achieve a quicker win with so many shots to play with, don't you think?


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I am glad you find my advice useful.  Sometimes the truth, however painful, can be just what is needed.  :thup:


Is the shaft plane the same as the swing plane?  If so then I understand what it is and if it isn't I don't understand what you are talking about.  Is it flatter on the downswing?  I don't know.



In a wider sense, I am not trying to be hurtful or mean to you.  I just think that you are looking at a minor detail here that probably won't help you at all.  It looks like you've had a good year in coming down nearly 3.5 shots but what is it that is causing your scores to be high?  Off the tee? Irons? Pitching?  Chipping?  Putting?  There must be something not quite right?  Something more fundamental?   Changing the angle of your swing is pretty major surgery and there must be a way to achieve a quicker win with so many shots to play with, don't you think?
		
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Dammit I just typed a huge reply and hit reply and got logged out GRRRRR.

Never mind. 

Thanks for the reply Snelly.  To keep it short and sweet, I leave about 10 shots out there on the green, in bunkers and generally from 60 yards in.  I struggled at the start of the year (my first year) to play to 28.  Delighted to say that I'm now playing to around 18 handicap.  Not bad without a short game I guess.  Just want to concentrate on making sure my swing is consistent before even looking at that side of things.

Would you concede that whilst you don't give a stuff about swing mechanics that you probably take the club away smoothly, get into a good position in the backswing, take the club back down the same path and deliver a square clubface with forward shaftlean at impact?  You're a good player- better than most will ever be and you've achieved this by hitting a million balls.  That's great and trust me, I love hitting golf balls too.  It's just that I ENJOY DISCUSSING SWING MECHANICS.  I like the ins and outs of them.  It's one of the most fun part of the game for me.  Just because people think that it's important to swing back and forwards with no other thoughts does not take away from the fact that there are very similar things going on in good player's swings and that knowing these things is not going to disadvantage one in any way.

I would say (and I'm mega guilty of this) that I believe that trying to hit the positions of Rose, Woods and McIlroy is a silly pursuit.  I couldn't hit these positions in slow motion!!!  I doing believe that if you find a way of hitting the ball with one type of spin (even a slice), consistently hitting ball then ground and achieving enough distance to play a course then you should stick with it and get yourself a short game.  AGAIN THOUGH- I do enjoy talking about positions, angles, gear and bio-mechanics.  It's my hobby.  

Oh- If anyone could point me towards where I posted that I was going to try to incorporate the shallowing of the shaft into my swing, that would be great.  I wrongly thought that others enjoyed talking about tiny bits of the golf swing as much as I do.  The faux outrage of the 20-something handicapper daring to get technical as if it was going to turn him into a pro by this time next week should have been expected.

Anyone recommend a pair of warm and waterproof socks?


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

See my reply Virtuocity, I enjoy learning about the swing mechanics, it's what helps me understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			See my reply Virtuocity, I enjoy learning about the swing mechanics, it's what helps me understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.
		
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Down by the right hip you say?  I take it that's FEEL rather than REAL!  Any changes to distance?


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Dammit I just typed a huge reply and hit reply and got logged out GRRRRR.

Never mind. 

Thanks for the reply Snelly.  To keep it short and sweet, I leave about 10 shots out there on the green, in bunkers and generally from 60 yards in.  I struggled at the start of the year (my first year) to play to 28.  Delighted to say that I'm now playing to around 18 handicap.  Not bad without a short game I guess.  Just want to concentrate on making sure my swing is consistent before even looking at that side of things.

Would you concede that whilst you don't give a stuff about swing mechanics that you probably take the club away smoothly, get into a good position in the backswing, take the club back down the same path and deliver a square clubface with forward shaftlean at impact?  You're a good player- better than most will ever be and you've achieved this by hitting a million balls.  That's great and trust me, I love hitting golf balls too.  It's just that I ENJOY DISCUSSING SWING MECHANICS.  I like the ins and outs of them.  It's one of the most fun part of the game for me.  Just because people think that it's important to swing back and forwards with no other thoughts does not take away from the fact that there are very similar things going on in good player's swings and that knowing these things is not going to disadvantage one in any way.

I would say (and I'm mega guilty of this) that I believe that trying to hit the positions of Rose, Woods and McIlroy is a silly pursuit.  I couldn't hit these positions in slow motion!!!  I doing believe that if you find a way of hitting the ball with one type of spin (even a slice), consistently hitting ball then ground and achieving enough distance to play a course then you should stick with it and get yourself a short game.  AGAIN THOUGH- I do enjoy talking about positions, angles, gear and bio-mechanics.  It's my hobby.  

Oh- If anyone could point me towards where I posted that I was going to try to incorporate the shallowing of the shaft into my swing, that would be great.  I wrongly thought that others enjoyed talking about tiny bits of the golf swing as much as I do.  The faux outrage of the 20-something handicapper daring to get technical as if it was going to turn him into a pro by this time next week should have been expected.

Anyone recommend a pair of warm and waterproof socks?
		
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Hmmm.

Quite a lot of stuff in there. If that is short and sweet, I would hate to see what detailed and comprehensive looks like! 

I will go through your points in order - apologies if this looks succinct at times...

Your faults are from 60 yards in it would seem.   As a first step, find a stock shot that works for you from this range and try and hit the middle of the green every time, forgetting where the flag is.   By stock shot I mean either a three quarter wedge or 9 iron.  Lower loft if you prefer lower trajectories, and practice this on the practice ground until you can regularly hit balls from varying distances back to your practice bag or brolly.  Think of it like a long chip instead of a full shot.   It doesn't take too long to develop a feel for distance if you practice like this but it does take time and a bit of dedication.  Once proficient, you can take this onto the course and de-risk shots from 60 yards considerably. 

Bunker shots are easy.  Stand open, open the face. Imagine when you address the ball that you are looking at a fried egg in the sand and that the ball is the yolk.  Hit firmly and positively down into the sand, with the aim of hitting the egg white. Let the weight of the shot take the club through to a finish.  The ball will invariably be on the green. 

Putting.  Watch the club hit the ball. 

Next, it is not true to say I don't give a stuff about swing mechanics.  I know what the top of my backswing needs to look like, I know how to address the ball and when I play well, the tempo of my swing is correct.  The last part is the variable that governs my day's golf.  If the timing is there, my golf is good and if not, it is poor.   Just trying to make the point that the finer details don't really count in my opinion. The key positions do though. 

Good that you get some joy from swing mechanics although why this is the best part of the game for you will always remain an unfathomable mystery to me.  Where you and I have widely differing opinions is that I do not think that understanding fine swing details will improve performance.  I just don't see that. Practice with a purpose is what is required. 

Nor do I agree that trying to copy the swing positions of a pro is a silly idea.  I reckon I learnt a lot by trying to copy Tom Watson or Steve Elkington.  No ball striking involved although I did used to try and clip a tee out of the ground, just trying to look at the reflection in our garage window at the top of my swing to see if it looked like theirs.  Forget Woods, his swing is tough to copy but surely Tom Watson's isn't?  He still has a beautiful swing.  Try and copy it. Watch a TV picture of his swing, try and get the same position at the top and copy his tempo as he swings.  It can be very helpful indeed. 

Finally, I am not outraged, faux or otherwise.  Just trying to help, even if it looks like I am taking the proverbial.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Good post :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 22, 2013)

If you want to try copying some of the pros, google swingvision and you'll find loads of clips in SlowMo taken from face on and down the line.


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			What do you mean by this?
		
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How about 

Keep it Simple Stoopid! 

Don't even consider that sort of thing until you have sorted out at least 98% of your other faults. And same would apply to almost eveyone on here imo.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			How about 

Keep it Simple Stoopid! 

Don't even *consider *that sort of thing until you have sorted out at least 98% of your other faults. And same would apply to almost eveyone on here imo.
		
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No, what did you mean by 'consider'?


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## socky (Nov 22, 2013)

I think its a bit pointless that people playing off low handicaps just think that "go out there and swing the club", is all the advice thats needed. People who are struggling obviously have a technical flaw in their swing when they go out and just swing it. 

If the OP is too steep in to the ball and its causing all sorts of problems, then a swing thought such as " flatten the down swing " (just an example) might help him to get everything in sequence and produce better shots. 

Half mocking posts about keeping it simple or just watch the ball is fine if you already have a fairly decent swing... also its frankly a bit boring just hearing people talking like that because somehow they think they have all the answers.


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Down by the right hip you say?  I take it that's FEEL rather than REAL!  Any changes to distance?
		
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The way I start my downswing, is that I drop my right elbow towards my hip, my left shoulder rises slightly and again the feel is that my left shoulder is slightly right of the target. With my right elbow down towards my hip, with the wrist hinge the club head is behind me.




In the above image of Ricky Fowler, you can see his right elbow tucked in, wrists hinged and the club head behind him. The elbow tuck in is NOT a feeling it's what you do, the club head IS behind you, but the feeling you get will be the club head is well behind you.

The whole purpose for me, in doing the above, is to create club head speed, creating the lag has allowed me to slow my swing down, but still keep the distance, but more over distance may have increased and control has improved massivley.


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## Region3 (Nov 22, 2013)

I think one of the best visual clues of how (most of) the pros move the club on the downswing is watching slow motion swings face on.

If you drew a horizontal line level with the club at the top of the backswing, the club head hardly - if at all - goes above that line on the way down.

A lot of amateurs - either in an attempt to swing hard at the ball, or keep the swing as wide as possible - throw the club straight back up above the line.

Mr. McIlroy is a good example.

[video=youtube;qZKoY8Tghaw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKoY8Tghaw[/video]


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

socky said:



			I think its a bit pointless that people playing off low handicaps just think that "go out there and swing the club", is all the advice thats needed. People who are struggling obviously have a technical flaw in their swing when they go out and just swing it. 

If the OP is too steep in to the ball and its causing all sorts of problems, then a swing thought such as " flatten the down swing " (just an example) might help him to get everything in sequence and produce better shots. 

Half mocking posts about keeping it simple or just watch the ball is fine if you already have a fairly decent swing... also its frankly a bit boring just hearing people talking like that because somehow they think they have all the answers.
		
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Yes, much better to read about someone off 17 telling low handicappers that they are full of arrogant nonsense eh?


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

Region3 said:



			I think one of the best visual clues of how (most of) the pros move the club on the downswing is watching slow motion swings face on.

If you drew a horizontal line level with the club at the top of the backswing, the club head hardly - if at all - goes above that line on the way down.

A lot of amateurs - either in an attempt to swing hard at the ball, or keep the swing as wide as possible - throw the club straight back up above the line.

Mr. McIlroy is a good example.

[video=youtube;qZKoY8Tghaw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKoY8Tghaw[/video]
		
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Quality post Gary.


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## socky (Nov 22, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Yes, much better to read about someone off 17 telling low handicappers that they are full of arrogant nonsense eh?
		
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Well done, first sensible thing you've said so far.


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## el marko (Nov 22, 2013)

I tried this with the driver for a round and was annihilating them dead straight. I was literally letting the head drop at the top of the backswing. I stopped doing it because it was difficult to get right everytime, sometimes not letting it drop enough, or to much etc.

Mark Crossfield bangs on about this in every video


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

el marko said:



			I tried this with the driver for a round and was annihilating them dead straight. I was literally letting the head drop at the top of the backswing. I stopped doing it because it was difficult to get right everytime, sometimes not letting it drop enough, or to much etc.

Mark Crossfield bangs on about this in every video
		
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It's all about practice and to be fair I hit the range most nights, the course once a week and lessons every fortnight.

I'm not sure if Snelly's post was a dig at me or Socky, but either way I currently play off 17 and what I posted above works for me. I was replying to Virtuocity's original post as he asked the question.


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			No, what did you mean by 'consider'?
		
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Well, what do you think 'consider' means?


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## Sybez (Nov 22, 2013)

First decent thread on this forum for a while, well done OP!

Mark "Marmite" Crossfield explains all in this vid for those here not quite understanding what the OP is saying on the different "planes" in a swing.... it all boils down to fixing an "in to out" downswing, giving more consistency, cleaner AOA, more control and distance... anyone here need that? Or just goning to get sucker punched by the next TMAG marketing campaign for 17 more yeards! lol

This is just one vid from his channel, plenty more there that cover the same and slightly different angles of the changes.
[video=youtube;X6SSnheefXg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6SSnheefXg[/video]


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

socky said:



			I think its a bit pointless that people playing off low handicaps just think that "go out there and swing the club", is all the advice thats needed. People who are struggling obviously have a technical flaw in their swing when they go out and just swing it. 

If the OP is too steep in to the ball and its causing all sorts of problems, then a swing thought such as " flatten the down swing " (just an example) might help him to get everything in sequence and produce better shots. 

Half mocking posts about keeping it simple or just watch the ball is fine if you already have a fairly decent swing... also its frankly a bit boring just hearing people talking like that because somehow they think they have all the answers.
		
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You might have a point if it was something fundamental, like ball position, grip or takeaway, But in this case it's neither arrogant nor mocking to talk of 'spaghetti head' or KISS - or 'Really FFS, what in heaven's name are you thinking about this for when there's so many more important things to think about (consider) that must be wrong from the way you describe your game!'!!! I'm normally happy to discuss swing mechanics ad nauseum, but this is just a ridiculous technicality for (as I stated earlier) 99.99% of players to think about (consider)!:rant:

For a bit of common sense on Swing Mechanics Analysis, tahe a look at some of Wayne DeFrancesco's YouTube analysis of Tournament Winners.


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## richy (Nov 22, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Yes, much better to read about someone off 17 telling low handicappers that they are full of arrogant nonsense eh?
		
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Is it not possible for low handicappers to be arrogant? The same goes for high handicappers.


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## SGC001 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Apologies for the confusion.







On picture 3 (top of the backswing) to picture 4 (downswing) the path of the hands is the same, but the shaft path is flattened a little (I think).
		
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You might be talking about something Faldo alluded to in a video he did with Leadbetter, Nick Faldos Golf Course I think it was called. It would've been in the downswing section and he spoke about a re-rotation of the arms which would be just shy of 20 minutes into the video before the beach ball bit.

If you're really interested in all that sort of stuff, consider having a look at the golf machine if you haven't already. They talk about planes in that amongst a few other things.

Edit: I probably should add an golfing adage along the lines of give me someone with big feet and no brains and I'll make a golfer out of them. Too much to think in this game and get in  your own way. Skill sets for teaching and playing aren't the same and players needn't necessarily concern themselves with some things teachers do and vice versa.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Well, what do you think 'consider' means?
		
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I think you are insinuating that I am intending on doing something more than trying to discuss the shallowing of the shaft on the downswing on a golf forum.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

SGC001 said:



			players needn't necessarily concern themselves with some things teachers do and vice versa.
		
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Agree 100%.  

However, if a player ENJOYS concerning themselves with it, then who are we to begrudge them such an indulgence?


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Sybez said:



			First decent thread on this forum for a while, well done OP!

Mark "Marmite" Crossfield explains all in this vid for those here not quite understanding what the OP is saying on the different "planes" in a swing.... it all boils down to fixing an "in to out" downswing, giving more consistency, cleaner AOA, more control and distance... anyone here need that? Or just goning to get sucker punched by the next TMAG marketing campaign for 17 more yeards! lol
		
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Ah pretty much what I was referring to, I think!


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## Sybez (Nov 22, 2013)

[video=youtube;QD5dfrYF-VU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD5dfrYF-VU[/video]


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2013)

socky said:



			I think its a bit pointless that people playing off low handicaps just think that "go out there and swing the club", is all the advice thats needed. People who are struggling obviously have a technical flaw in their swing when they go out and just swing it. 

If the OP is too steep in to the ball and its causing all sorts of problems, then a swing thought such as " flatten the down swing " (just an example) might help him to get everything in sequence and produce better shots. 

Half mocking posts about keeping it simple or just watch the ball is fine if you already have a fairly decent swing... also its frankly a bit boring just hearing people talking like that because somehow they think they have all the answers.
		
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The point your missing is that those low h'cappers (I'll stretch it and include myself as it's my post ) have got to that low h'cap without worrying about the technicality talked about in this thread and I can guarantee that a higher h'cap golfer that is struggling is doing so because of something far more fundamental than this.

That said, if the OP is interested in this stuff, that's his perogative and good luck to him, but I think he'll see bigger improvements by working on something more basic.


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## SGC001 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Agree 100%.  

However, if a player ENJOYS concerning themselves with it, then who are we to begrudge them such an indulgence?
		
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That's fine, but some of that stuff may clash i.e. may help the teacher and hurt the player.

If you can find that video I wrote of in my initial post, it is likely that you will find it comments on the area you expressed an interest in.


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I think you are insinuating that I am intending on doing something more than trying to discuss the shallowing of the shaft on the downswing on a golf forum.
		
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Why would think that?  

The spaghetti is on the move again!

Or as an old and somewhat (in)famous Caddy would say 'Yer foo'ed in heed!'. I'm sure a couple of folk on here know who I'm talking about!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 22, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			Now to try and get an in to out path, I've slowed down a lot, the first action on the down swing is to drop the club to what feels behind my right hip, I keep my left arm in tight across my chest, then as I transfer my weight, the club comes inside, I unhinge my wrists, make contact with the ball, let the club follow through for a full release away and what feels like slightly right of the target line.
		
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All this in about 1/10th of a second?

The point I was trying to make earlier is very relevant here....KISS. It's not physically or mentally possible to think of all these individual movements and adjustments in the time it takes to make a downswing. Or if you can do it then you are a golfer of extraordinary talent and should be on tour. 

Get your setup correct, take the club back on line, make a full shoulder turn and then reverse the process the other way and you will swing the club well.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from analysing their swing if that's what they want to do but unless you have the talent to back it up, getting too technical won't improve your golf. 

Bottom line though......you pay your money and you make your choice. Good luck and enjoyable journey whichever way you choose, the most important thing is you enjoy the game.


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## garyinderry (Nov 22, 2013)

is this an overly hard this to even do?  


I watched the mark crossfield videos quite so time ago and did give this a try.   now if I was doing it right or not is a different question as I am flat as a pancake already. 

I had a little success with this swing thought at the time although I stopped even thinking about it by the next time I was out!


try it out the the next you play or at the range.  if it works, go with it, if not, don't worry! :thup:


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## Hallsy (Nov 22, 2013)

Is this what the OP means?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38JNe-HMsM


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			Is this what the OP means?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38JNe-HMsM

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Not really- it was just that I noticed a lot of good golfers' shafts were flatter on the downswing than on the backswing.  A fleeting curiosity which quickly turned into a telling off from good golfers.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Nov 22, 2013)

Not a scoobee what's being asked here.


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## Sybez (Nov 22, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			Is this what the OP means?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38JNe-HMsM

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Great vid thanks for posting!


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## kid2 (Nov 22, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Not really- it was just that I noticed a lot of good golfers' shafts were flatter on the downswing than on the backswing.  A fleeting curiosity which quickly turned into a telling off from good golfers.
		
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Have a read of this pal..... It might give you a little insight into what I think your after.......

It's something I don't worry too much about anymore...

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifesty...ane-path-and-other-considerations-part-1.html


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			Now to try and get an in to out path, I've slowed down a lot, the first action on the down swing is to drop the club to what feels behind my right hip, I keep my left arm in tight across my chest, then as I transfer my weight, the club comes inside, I unhinge my wrists, make contact with the ball, let the club follow through for a full release away and what feels like slightly right of the target line.
		
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drive4show said:



			All this in about 1/10th of a second?
		
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Yes all the above in about a 1/10th of a second, but the thing is you're not thinking about all those things at the same time, all the things I mention above, for me anyway have been addressed as individual items and worked on individually until I no longer have to think about them. At the moment I'm trying to get the release right, to get the extension away from the ball on the follow through, the other 5 things I mention above I no longer have to think about, but to get to the stage where I no longer have to think about them, I have hit literally thousands of balls at the range, spent hours in front of a mirror practicing my swing, so I could get rid of my bad habits and grove in the better new ones.


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			I have hit literally thousands of balls at the range, spent hours in front of a mirror practicing my swing, so I could get rid of my bad habits and grove in the better new ones.
		
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And you are still only an average handicap (or maybe a shade poorer) golfer? 

Dedicated? Daft? Or focusing on the wrong things?

Not meant to be particularly critical, just an observation that you may be focused on the wrong aspects of Golf. The handicap system has the wonderful benefit that, like sex, you don't have to be particularly good to enjoy it, but need to be aware of how your performance affects your fellow participants!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2013)

No idea what the OP is going on about but I do agree that far too much thinking goes on in terms of the swing from amateur golfers.

Sometimes people need to relax and enjoy it more and just go out and hit the ball without thinking so much stuff in their head - they could be very surprised at how well they play.


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## Khamelion (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			And you are still only an average handicap (or maybe a shade poorer) golfer? 

Dedicated? Daft? Or focusing on the wrong things?
		
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I got my HC this year just before the H4H day, I'd previously been hacking around the course, in the mid 90's to 100, then over a period of time, as  I wrote in the lesson's thread, I had a period of time where things started to click into place, the lessons and practice were paying off and I started to card better scores. 

I broke 90 for the first time this year, then went on to break 85 and was only one crap hole away from breaking 80. Based on three mid to low 80 scores I got my handicap. I did not play in any comps last year as it was to late in the season, but next year I fully intend to play in as  many as I can.

You may remember that I have said that for the H4H day 2014 I will be playing off a single figure HC, that's 8 shots I have to find consistently each round to achieve that goal.

So dedicated, you bet I am I WILL be off a single figure HC for H4H next year. Daft, maybe, I have no vices in the traditional sense, so I guess my vice is golf, I enjoy it and my other half supports me in my golfing. As for focusing on the wrong things, far from it, through my lessons and practice my swing has changed for the better, it is evolving and rather than change everything at once my teacher is giving me stuff to groove in which individually may seem like the focus is wrong, but collectively over time they all fit together. I'm about 65-70% the way towards being able to shoot a round of less then 75 and over this winter I will be hitting many more thousands of balls, it's not a case of if I will get better, or if I will play off a single figure HC, but when, and I promise you that in the 11 months before H4H 2014 I will be off a single figure HC.


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## bozza (Nov 23, 2013)

I can't see why people are suggesting you that if you play off a higher h/c that you shouldn't be thinking about your swing plane or something slightly technical.

What's the point of getting down to say a 8 h/c after playing golf for 10 years  with a poor swing that you can get away with but to get lower and more consistent you then have to start looking into the more technical side of it to try turn a poor/average swing into a more "textbook"/consistent swing to get them to say scratch or better. 

I'd much rather have a good solid swing Ingrained as soon as I can before too many bad habits creep in the could take years to get rid of.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			I can't see why people are suggesting you that if you play off a higher h/c that you shouldn't be thinking about your swing plane or something slightly technical.

What's the point of getting down to say a 8 h/c after playing golf for 10 years  with a poor swing that you can get away with but to get lower and more consistent you then have to start looking into the more technical side of it to try turn a poor/average swing into a more "textbook"/consistent swing to get them to say scratch or better. 

I'd much rather have a good solid swing Ingrained as soon as I can before too many bad habits creep in the could take years to get rid of.
		
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Disagree - i have got down to cat 1 without even thinking of any technical parts of the swing and i know scratch players and players around scratch who do the same - they just play the game. If the ball flight is right then the swing isnt poor

Textbook isnt always the answer


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			I can't see why people are suggesting you that if you play off a higher h/c that you shouldn't be thinking about your swing plane or something slightly technical.

What's the point of getting down to say a 8 h/c after playing golf for 10 years  with a poor swing that you can get away with but to get lower and more consistent you then have to start looking into the more technical side of it to try turn a poor/average swing into a more "textbook"/consistent swing to get them to say scratch or better. 

I'd much rather have a good solid swing Ingrained as soon as I can before too many bad habits creep in the could take years to get rid of.
		
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But you don't need to be this technical to have a good solid swing. You also have to have certain physical attributes to perform a lot of the moves the pros do and many of us simply don't have those attributes. The most important part of the golf swing is impact, for many of us the key is finding a swing that we can make that delivers the clubhead to the ball in the right way. That swing may be flawed and ugly but unless you have time on your hands to spend hours on the range every day, flawed and ugly is what it's all about.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm too laid off as it is, this would kill me and result in a big case of the shermans


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## bozza (Nov 23, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Disagree - i have got down to cat 1 without even thinking of any technical parts of the swing and i know scratch players and players around scratch who do the same - they just play the game. If the ball flight is right then the swing isnt poor

Textbook isnt always the answer
		
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But if the ball flight/shot isn't right then surely you need to work on it to fix it and of you the fundamentals are right, grip/stance/alignment/posture etc then you probably need to be working on something a bit more technical no matter what your handicap is.


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## bozza (Nov 23, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			But you don't need to be this technical to have a good solid swing. You also have to have certain physical attributes to perform a lot of the moves the pros do and many of us simply don't have those attributes. The most important part of the golf swing is impact, for many of us the key is finding a swing that we can make that delivers the clubhead to the ball in the right way. That swing may be flawed and ugly but unless you have time on your hands to spend hours on the range every day, flawed and ugly is what it's all about.
		
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But for me I wouldn't see what the OP is talking about as "technical" it's about dropping the club on the inside to stop a out to in swing which can cause pull or a high left to right shot, to me getting on the right swing plane/path is a basic fundamental part of golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But if the ball flight/shot isn't right then surely you need to work on it to fix it and of you the fundamentals are right, grip/stance/alignment/posture etc then you probably need to be working on something a bit more technical no matter what your handicap is.
		
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If you're getting down to low handicaps then the ball flight won't be too far off. 

To get down to low handicap the majority of time it's about your short game and scoring around the greens as opposed to worry about technical issues with your swing.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But for me I wouldn't see what the OP is talking about as "technical" it's about dropping the club on the inside to stop a out to in swing which can cause pull or a high left to right shot, to me getting on the right swing plane/path is a basic fundamental part of golf.
		
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You're right, it is. But Hawkeye is also right, despite what people say on here, you don't need to understand all the technical details to swing the club well. If you want to stop an over the top movement to eliminate pulls and slices then all you have to do is focus on making sure your right shoulder comes through under your chin. It's a lot simpler and easier than than thinking about hand position, pull the right elbow in to start the downswing, hold the angle of the shaft until impact, release the hands through and slightly to the right of the target line blah blah blah.

Don't forget that the downswing from start to impact is about 1/10th of a second, not very long to think about things and try to make adjustments


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## bozza (Nov 23, 2013)

But if you are having to play 3 off the tee chip out sideways from trees due to a "technical" fault such as your swing path being wrong the surely you should worry about that and try to fix it?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But if you are having to play 3 off the tee chip out sideways from trees due to a "technical" fault such as your swing path being wrong the surely you should worry about that and try to fix it?
		
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Yes you do but there are 'easy' ways and 'massively overtechnical' ways to do it.

Your choice which route you want to take  :thup:


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## Khamelion (Nov 23, 2013)

drive4show said:



			If you want to stop an over the top movement to eliminate pulls and slices then all you have to do is focus on making sure your right shoulder comes through under your chin. _It's a lot simpler and easier than than thinking about hand position, pull the right elbow in to start the downswing, hold the angle of the shaft until impact, release the hands through and slightly to the right of the target line blah blah blah._

Don't forget that the downswing from start to impact is about 1/10th of a second, not very long to think about things and try to make adjustments  

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I agree with the part I've highlighted, but as I replied earlier, you're not thinking about all those things, people are taking what I wrote out of context. Yes those things all happen, yes you do think about them, but they are thought of individually over time and through a lot of practice until each individual aspect becomes second nature. For the purposes of this thread they do present an argument that makes the swing look way more complicated than it should be, that if you over think the swing you will fall foul of something, but what I wrote was not my swing thoughts, but the procession of events that occur in order for me to get the club from the top of the backswing back to the ball.

And yes bringing your right shoulder under your chin is one way of stopping coming over the top, so is trying to hold your left shoulder slightly right of target for a split second longer, as is dropping you elbow and tucking it in. What works for one may not work for another.


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			I can't see why people are suggesting you that if you play off a higher h/c that you shouldn't be thinking about your swing plane or something slightly technical.

What's the point of getting down to say a 8 h/c after playing golf for 10 years  with a poor swing that you can get away with but to get lower and more consistent you then have to start looking into the more technical side of it to try turn a poor/average swing into a more "textbook"/consistent swing to get them to say scratch or better. 

I'd much rather have a good solid swing Ingrained as soon as I can before too many bad habits creep in the could take years to get rid of.
		
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I'm certainly not suggesting that! Though I certainly know folk who don't care or actively avoid technical aspects.

What i am suggesting is that there are almost certainly loads of far more important things to get somewhere near right BEFORE tiny little details - that are very often personal and 'non-essential' details - such as the one referred to are considered. 

A subtle adjustment of the hands at a certain point in the downswing is not going to make 1 iota of difference when, for example, the previously collapsed forearms are flailing off into an almighty cast followed by a huge OTT sweep!


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## JustOne (Nov 23, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Does anyone make a conscious effort to flatten the shaft path (to the hand path) on the downswing?  Is this something you've ever been taught?
		
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I do. It's not a conscious move though, it's a sequencing thing.


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