# Windrush Scandal



## Hacker Khan (Apr 17, 2018)

[video=youtube;Y2q2dQlsywY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2q2dQlsywY[/video]

Speech.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 17, 2018)

And whilst I've never said this before, fair play to The Daily Fail for leading with this on their front page instead of doing what the Sun, Star and Express did and ignoring it on the front page as they thought the only important thing that happening in the UK yesterday was a celeb getting a drink driving conviction.


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## IanM (Apr 17, 2018)

Cant see your link, but from the radio report, the Govt are saying "Oooops, that's a mistake"..... a Civil Servant will be getting a telling off somewhere!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Cant see your link, but from the radio report, the Govt are saying "Oooops, that's a mistake"..... a Civil Servant will be getting a telling off somewhere!
		
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Or a public servant like the previous Home Secretary?

_In the UK Illegally?  Go home or face arrest..._

Nice and empathetic that was...


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## IanM (Apr 17, 2018)

Correct.  Totally unforgivable.   Especially when you see the sort of scum who we want to deport but can't.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2018)

There seem to be an unfortunate number in The Home Office over the years who need to look up the definition of empathy. Surely at some point one of them should get their nose out of the rule book and flag that something is not right. This should have been dealt with calmly, quietly and with no distress to those involved.


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## londonlewis (Apr 17, 2018)

It's despicable to think you could be deported despite your parents moving here 6 decades ago and you living here almost all of your life.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			It's despicable to think you could be deported despite your parents moving here 6 decades ago and you living here almost all of your life.
		
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Particularly as we invited those parents to come and live here.


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2018)

If ever a dept needed to be the pinnacle of diversity...what a bloody, deplorable mess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2018)

And I fear that it is only going to get worse...


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## Tashyboy (Apr 17, 2018)

The bit that gets me is that these people were invited here and did skilled jobs that enhanced our lives and there's. Polar opposites of the mass I policed migration problems we have now. Yet these people are now treated like criminals. It is disgusting.


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## Mudball (Apr 17, 2018)

No point reminding anyone who was the head of the home office that decided to remove the immunity in the first place... our very own Maybot..


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2018)

If someone has lived in the UK this long should they have become British Citizens?   If they have retained their original citizenship then I can see this may create a problem at some time.    Not sure if this is the case though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 18, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If someone has lived in the UK this long should they have become British Citizens?   If they have retained their original citizenship then I can see this may create a problem at some time.    Not sure if this is the case though.
		
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I suppose the comparison is the British ex pat who retires out to Spain or France. I'm not sure many of them change citizenship.


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I fear that it is only going to get worse...

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Probably not.  HO severely egged for the mess up, PM eating humble pie publically.  Bloke I spoke to in Whitehall yesterday said the internal fall out will be considerable. 

But, you are fishing, yet again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2018)

Interesting comparisons of the compassion shown to Commonwealth citizens who have lived in the UK for 50 years, and the EU citizens who have only managed 40 years.


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting comparisons of the compassion shown to Commonwealth citizens who have lived in the UK for 50 years, and the EU citizens who have only managed 40 years.
		
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And those returning from fighting for ISIS?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting comparisons of the compassion shown to Commonwealth citizens who have lived in the UK for 50 years, and the EU citizens who have only managed 40 years.
		
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@Doon - I fear things are being set up for a difficult future.  Where every individual from the EU27, and indeed the commonwealth countries and sub-continent, will feel (at best from time-to-time) that they are being looked upon with suspicion of being an illegal - and many will find themselves being asked to prove their residency qualifications in what for the rest of us are just the things we do in life.  And some - maybe many - will find themselves in terrible situations as some of the Windrush Generation

Immigration should not be about counting numbers - it should be about people.  Because when it is reduced to counting numbers (as May would have it to get to her 10s of thousands net immigration), we will find Civil Servants *having * to seek the low-hanging fruit as they struggle to meet unrealistic targets...and so under May's time as Home Secretary some nice juicy low hanging fruit was found in the Windrush generation.

But fret ye not @Doon - for I am just a naysayer...


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## Mudball (Apr 18, 2018)

IanM said:



			And those returning from fighting for ISIS?
		
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I think a bit harsh to compare hard working joe bloggs from Windrush / Commonwealth with fighters returning from ISIS.   If i m not wrong, most of the returning fighters were home born citizens who chose the wrong path.


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I think a bit harsh to compare hard working joe bloggs from Windrush / Commonwealth with fighters returning from ISIS.   If i m not wrong, most of the returning fighters were home born citizens who chose the wrong path.
		
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Absolutely no comparison at all.  Was reflecting on how honest hard working citizens could face deportation, while some scumbag terrorists are allowed back in!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2018)

IanM said:



			Absolutely no comparison at all.  Was reflecting on how honest hard working citizens could face deportation, while some scumbag terrorists are allowed back in!
		
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Glad you cleared that up as your initial post looked a bit weird.


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2018)

On the basis that at least 2 people misread it, apologies for any lack of clarity.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2018)

Mudball said:



			No point reminding anyone who was the head of the home office that decided to remove the immunity in the first place... our very own Maybot..
		
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Turns out that the documents were destroyed in 2009 when Labour were in government.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Turns out that the documents were destroyed in 2009 when Labour were in government.
		
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You really sure about that ?


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2018)

Oh yes.  2009.   Gordon "_Gold Reserves at rock bottom prices_" Brown was PM. 

Maybe we should merge this with the "Funny Coincidence" thread?


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You really sure about that ?
		
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He's right. However, it wasn't a Labour Party decision. It was taken by the UKBA, who were an independent body. There you go. Nothing to see here.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			He's right. However, it wasn't a Labour Party decision. It was taken by the UKBA, who were an independent body. There you go. Nothing to see here.
		
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Except that the records were destroyed in 2010.


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Except that the records were destroyed in 2010.
		
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That's why I said decision and not action. Not even a subtle difference &#128077;


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## huds1475 (Apr 18, 2018)

The operating models, business processes and management within the public sector is largely party agnostic.

To attribute bad record management to a political party is naive at best.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

huds1475 said:



			The operating models, business processes and management within the public sector is largely party agnostic.

To attribute bad record management to a political party is naive at best.
		
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True to a large extent, although thinking of a Civil Service Client of mine, from conversations, I think a massive majority are Labour voters.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			True to a large extent, although thinking of a Civil Service Client of mine, from conversations, I think a massive majority are Labour voters.
		
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It doesn't make it a Labour decision though. It would be like saying most in the Home Office in Whitehall are West Ham fans so the scandal is the fault of the club. It is ineptness.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

Interesting jump, not sure why you thought I was saying that.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			True to a large extent, although thinking of a Civil Service Client of mine, from conversations, I think a massive majority are Labour voters.
		
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Is it not just possible to say it is a colossal cluster%^%^ and many people have been treated disgracefully?  Instead of trying to score cheap political points in a rather tedious manner by trying to shoe horn labour into this an a desperate way?  As that is what puts the vast majority of people off politics at the moment, it genuinely is the kind of mentality you get with primary school pupils.  

I thought to be fair to Amber Rudd she kind of fessed up, said they had screwed up has put measures in place to sort it out.  And if lessons are learnt and all sides have a think about how we got to this rather sad situation and prevent it from happening again then good.  But if people are just going to forget that quickly in a rather childish attempt to change the narrative and put blame onto another political party then we are probably doomed to just keep making the same mistakes.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it not just possible to say it is a colossal cluster%^%^ and many people have been treated disgracefully?
		
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Spot on, and I may have said similar earlier


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			Interesting jump, not sure why you thought I was saying that.
		
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Apologies, I probably saw a link where there was none.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2018)

This scandal ids unlikely to fill all West Indian Brexit voters with much hope that leaving the EU will enable greater and easier immigration from their homelands.  Likewise - as this rather exposes the government bottom line attitude to immigration - UK Brexit voters from the sub-continent will be wondering whether greater and easier immigration from *their *homelands is likely.  Both West Indian and sub-continent Brits who voted to were given expectations pre-vote that cutting down EU27 immigration will relax rules and ease immigration from their homelands.  I'm thinking they are wondering given this scandalous shambles.

It's not that we weren't warned about May and immigration

https://www.ft.com/content/d2bf2cce-f317-11e3-91d8-00144feabdc0


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This scandal ids unlikely to fill all West Indian Brexit voters with much hope that leaving the EU will enable greater and easier immigration from their homelands.  Likewise - as this rather exposes the government bottom line attitude to immigration - UK Brexit voters from the sub-continent will be wondering whether greater and easier immigration from *their *homelands is likely.  Both West Indian and sub-continent Brits who voted to were given expectations pre-vote that cutting down EU27 immigration will relax rules and ease immigration from their homelands.  I'm thinking they are wondering given this scandalous shambles.

It's not that we weren't warned about May and immigration

https://www.ft.com/content/d2bf2cce-f317-11e3-91d8-00144feabdc0

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Oh look, another pop at Brexit. Did you vote to remain by any chance? Don't worry, Scots are affected by Windrush, nobody is going to send you back to where you came from.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

Hold up Hogy!   West Indian Brexit voters???   

1) You've spent 2 years telling us all Leaver Voters are all white, Millwall Skinheads!  (satire, in case you miss it)

2) West Indians???  My mate's granddad came from Jamaica.   Him and his dad are from Pompey.  He'd rip your head off for calling him a West Indian!  

Bloomin racists!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Oh look, another pop at Brexit. Did you vote to remain by any chance? Don't worry, Scots are affected by Windrush, nobody is going to send you back to where you came from.
		
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Was it just me or is there no sympathy towards those who have been extremely badly treated, just another opportunity to twist it to an anti Brexit rant.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			He's right. However, it wasn't a Labour Party decision. It was taken by the UKBA, who were an independent body. There you go. Nothing to see here.
		
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May saying that the decision was made under a Labour govt really was point scoring of the worst kind. Absolutely pathetic.

The destruction of the cards is not the issue here, it's the new rules May introduced in 2014 saying if you can't prove you belong here, you're getting kicked out that has caused this problem. Applying these rules to folk who have lived here and paid taxes for 50 years or more is an absolute disgrace.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			Hold up Hogy!   West Indian Brexit voters???   

1) *You've spent 2 years telling us all Leaver Voters are all white,* Millwall Skinheads!  (satire, in case you miss it)

2) West Indians???  My mate's granddad came from Jamaica.   Him and his dad are from Pompey.  He'd rip your head off for calling him a West Indian!  

Bloomin racists! 

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Really? - point to where I have ever said or even implied *this*

So which collective noun would you rather I used to describe the collection of Caribbean islands from where all of those who came here in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  Tell me and I'll use it.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			Hold up Hogy!   West Indian Brexit voters???   

1) You've spent 2 years telling us all Leaver Voters are all white, Millwall Skinheads!  (satire, in case you miss it)

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...and you complained in the Art 50 Thread when I suggested you don't read other posts properly


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which collective noun would you rather I used to describe the collection of Caribbean islands from where all of those who came here in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  Tell me and I'll use it.
		
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I think Caribbean is the answer, not trying to be smart by the way. West Indies is pretty much only used for cricket purposes. Each island is very much independent and the rivalry is sharp.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which collective noun would you rather I used to describe the collection of Caribbean islands from where all of those who came here in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  Tell me and I'll use it.
		
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Um, he is ENGLISH!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2018)

I can't believe this post has degenerated into mild insults and petty point scoring, that's so unusual for this forum... 




Wait a minute though, is this post petty point scoring as well?  It's so confusing nowadays.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



			May saying that the decision was made under a Labour govt really was point scoring of the worst kind. Absolutely pathetic.
*
The destruction of the cards is not the issue here, it's the new rules May introduced in 2014 saying if you can't prove you belong here, you're getting kicked out that has caused this problem. Applying these rules to folk who have lived here and paid taxes for 50 years or more is an absolute disgrace.*

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Not that simple I believe.  The new rules the then Home Secretary introduced in 2014 to protect the country from illegal immigrants aren't an issue if people can prove a right of residency.  The cards were that proof.  Therefore their destruction very much is the issue for the Windrush immigrants.

Now if you can prove that as Home Secretary Mrs May knew about the destruction of the cards and introduced the rules 2014 to clear the Windrush generation out then I'll agree she and her rules are the issue.  However I suspect we both realise that the rules made in 2014 for the good of the country have unfortunately, and not for the first time, caught out people they were never intended to catch.

As has been pointed out, the decision to destroy them was taken by an independent body.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not that simple I believe.  The new rules the then Home Secretary introduced in 2014 to protect the country from *illegal immigrants aren't an issue if people can prove a right of residency.  The cards were that proof.*  Therefore their destruction very much is the issue for the Windrush immigrants.

Now if you can prove that as Home Secretary Mrs May knew about the destruction of the cards and introduced the rules 2014 to clear the Windrush generation out then I'll agree she and her rules are the issue.  However I suspect we both realise that the rules made in 2014 for the good of the country have unfortunately, and not for the first time, caught out people they were never intended to catch.

As has been pointed out, the decision to destroy them was taken by an independent body.
		
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If the cards were really that important, do you think anyone in their right mind would have ordered their destruction? Back in 2009/2010, they were seen as cultural artefacts at best, taking up space which could be used for other purposes. No-one then knew that 4 years later, Mat would introduce legislation which put the onus on the individual to produce documentation to prove they had the right to live here.

The real question that should be getting asked is why the Windrush generation were targeted, not who decided to bin some ancient cards 4 years before anyone thought they might be useful.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			...and you complained in the Art 50 Thread when I suggested you don't read other posts properly

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OK - you got me there...I thought it was the _Millwall Skinheads_ that was the satirical bit


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



			May saying that the decision was made under a Labour govt really was point scoring of the worst kind. Absolutely pathetic.

The destruction of the cards is not the issue here, it's the new rules May introduced in 2014 saying if you can't prove you belong here, you're getting kicked out that has caused this problem. Applying these rules to folk who have lived here and paid taxes for 50 years or more is an absolute disgrace.
		
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Corbyn suggesting that the Tories destroyed the cards was OK then?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



			If the cards were really that important, do you think anyone in their right mind would have ordered their destruction? Back in 2009/2010, they were seen as cultural artefacts at best, taking up space which could be used for other purposes. No-one then knew that 4 years later, Mat would introduce legislation which put the onus on the individual to produce documentation to prove they had the right to live here.

The real question that should be getting asked is *why the Windrush generation were targeted*, not who decided to bin some ancient cards 4 years before anyone thought they might be useful.
		
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Targeted; that's a bit strong, unless of course you've got evidence of this campaign of targeting?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



*If the cards were really that important, do you think anyone in their right mind would have ordered their destruction? *Back in 2009/2010, they were seen as cultural artefacts at best, taking up space which could be used for other purposes. No-one then knew that 4 years later, Mat would introduce legislation which put the onus on the individual to produce documentation to prove they had the right to live here.

The real question that should be getting asked is why the Windrush generation were targeted, not who decided to bin some ancient cards 4 years before anyone thought they might be useful.
		
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The Windrush sailed in 1948.  The cards were destroyed in 2010.  62 years later.  Doesn't seem that much of stretch to think that 62 years later there wouldn't be some proof other than an ancient landing card that the immigrants were entitled to be here.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			The Windrush sailed in 1948.  The cards were destroyed in 2010.  62 years later.  Doesn't seem that much of stretch to think that 62 years later there wouldn't be some proof other than an ancient landing card that the immigrants were entitled to be here.
		
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If only the tech existed to scan and store digitally :mmm:


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			If only the tech existed to scan and store digitally :mmm:
		
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If only someone had realised the potential importance; like the staff that warned the management perhaps?


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## spongebob59 (Apr 20, 2018)

Spot on as usual :

https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/987101739500191745


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 20, 2018)

The fact that the cards were destroyed is not really the main issue, but I would suggest the fact that as a society we were prepared to let this kind of thing (as in British citizens being threatened with deportation, people losing their jobs etc) happen is. How did we get to this, why did we get to this, what is the underlying culture that allows this thing to happen, how can we prevent us repeating the same mistakes.  I'd suggest those are the issues that us a society should be really examining, not some administrative decision made several years ago.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			The fact that the cards were destroyed is not really the main issue, but I would suggest the fact that as a society we were prepared to let this kind of thing (as in British citizens being threatened with deportation, people losing their jobs etc) happen is. How did we get to this, why did we get to this, what is the underlying culture that allows this thing to happen, how can we prevent us repeating the same mistakes.  I'd suggest those are the issues that us a society should be really examining, not some administrative decision made several years ago.
		
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We fell into the trap of prioritising the 'needs' of 'new friends'...
Finding it too easy to put our 'old friends' on ignore...


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2018)

I might be a bit thick on this, but. Surely someone who has been here for 60 years, has a passport, or a NI number, or an NHS number. Surely they have been paying tax, for x years. Or been on benefits, for x years. Is none of that record enough? Does it really rely on a piece of cardboard from 60 years ago?


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2018)

Afterall, you can play cricket, rugby, footy, run for England after about 3 years here.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			I might be a bit thick on this, but. Surely someone who has been here for 60 years, has a passport, or a NI number, or an NHS number. Surely they have been paying tax, for x years. Or been on benefits, for x years. Is none of that record enough? Does it really rely on a piece of cardboard from 60 years ago?
		
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My wife did ask this the other day. Seems very odd that a tatty old landing card has more standing.


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## IanM (Apr 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My wife did ask this the other day. Seems very odd that a tatty old landing card has more standing.
		
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I am sure it doesnt, but that messes up the story.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2018)

IanM said:



			I am sure it doesnt, but that messes up the story.
		
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You are probably right but then again people were being asked to leave the country so something has genuinely failed somewhere down the line. The shame is the political culture in this country is to find a slight chink in the armour and attack. That stops any grown up question and answers from happening, it is just a shrieking match. The politicians should be able to calmly highlight a fault, have it investigated, resolved and we all move on. 

Somewhere out there is a parallel universe where that may happen


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## IanM (Apr 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are probably right but then again people were being asked to leave the country so something has genuinely failed somewhere down the line. 

The shame is the political culture in this country is to find a slight chink in the armour and attack.
		
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Well you are dead right in the first line, but I think the opposite is generally true in the second.  (depending on who is involved)  Some groups can do what they like, innocent citizens like these folk get grief


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2018)

IanM said:



			Well you are dead right in the first line, but I think the opposite is generally true in the second.  (depending on who is involved)  Some groups can do what they like, innocent citizens like these folk get grief
		
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Sorry, I was not clear there. I meant that instead of Labour bringing this to the attention of the govt in order to purely resolve the problem it becomes about scoring points. That makes the govt defensive and the truth becomes confused. That happens both ways, all ways in fact. My criticism was of politicians and the way they behave, it is destructive rather than constructive.

I agree with your comment.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2018)

This issue is for me a symptom of having unclear immigration laws.  If foreign people decide to come and live in the UK and have been accepted as suitable immigrants then they should be issued with a time limited entry/work visa.  If they wish to stay after the initial visa expires then they should either apply for British Citizenship or an extension of their temporary visa.  If made British Citizens they will be given the appropriate certification.   Any other system is open to confusion and possible misuse.    Other countries seem to do it without the type of bun fight we are currently experiencing.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			The fact that the cards were destroyed is not really the main issue, but I would suggest the fact that as a society we were prepared to let this kind of thing (as in British citizens being threatened with deportation, people losing their jobs etc) happen is. How did we get to this, why did we get to this, what is the underlying culture that allows this thing to happen, how can we prevent us repeating the same mistakes.  I'd suggest those are the issues that us a society should be really examining, not some administrative decision made several years ago.
		
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I don't think that we, as a society, are prepared to let this sort of thing happen. I think the furore that has erupted since it came to light shows that it isn't acceptable. We put people in government, and expect them to manage the country on our behalf. And, hopefully, we also get an opposition that will hold a government to account when something goes wrong. 

This isn't an issue of societal neglect, its a systemic failure of government.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think that we, as a society, are prepared to let this sort of thing happen. I think the furore that has erupted since it came to light shows that it isn't acceptable. We put people in government, and expect them to manage the country on our behalf. And, hopefully, we also get an opposition that will hold a government to account when something goes wrong. 

This isn't an issue of societal neglect, its a systemic failure of government.
		
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Whilst I agree almost entirely, it's hard to argue against the idea that we get the Political landscape we deserve. Just a quick peruse of Twitter is enough to depress even the most optimistic of us. There may be widespread uproar about this scandal, but there's a vocal minority who not only agree with this abhorrent situation, but would wish it to go further.


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## hors limite (Apr 21, 2018)

The treatment of the Windrush people is appalling - no question. However, I find that I am a bit worried by the effort of some to blur the distinction between creating a " hostile" for illegal immigrants and creating such an attitude to legitimate immigrants which should, of course not happen.


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## hors limite (Apr 22, 2018)

The Guardian are running " another Tory race scandal" this morning.The govt intends trialling a scheme to require voters to produce some identification at the local elections. For some reason this is seen as impacting negatively on immigrants.Why? If you are in the UK legitimately where's the problem? Taking the idea to its logical conclusion why don't we have ID cards?
Corbyn is in faux outrage mode. The trial is in response to voting fraud and I'll leave you to guess which party has benefited the most.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 22, 2018)

hors limite said:



			The Guardian are running " another Tory race scandal" this morning.The govt intends trialling a scheme to require voters to produce some identification at the local elections. *For some reason this is seen as impacting negatively on immigrants.Why?* If you are in the UK legitimately where's the problem? Taking the idea to its logical conclusion why don't we have ID cards?
Corbyn is in faux outrage mode. The trial is in response to voting fraud and I'll leave you to guess which party has benefited the most.
		
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You have been following the Windrush scandal haven't you? Where people who came to this country are having a few challenges due to their lack of official ID?

Try reading this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43300100 or watching this which although not UK focused, kind of gets the point across.  And warning, it may swear a bit as that's what he does on his show occasionally.  [video=youtube;rHFOwlMCdto]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto[/video]


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## doublebogey7 (Apr 22, 2018)

hors limite said:



			The Guardian are running " another Tory race scandal" this morning.The govt intends trialling a scheme to require voters to produce some identification at the local elections. For some reason this is seen as impacting negatively on immigrants.Why? If you are in the UK legitimately where's the problem? Taking the idea to its logical conclusion why don't we have ID cards?
Corbyn is in faux outrage mode. The trial is in response to voting fraud and I'll leave you to guess which party has benefited the most.
		
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The point is we are not required to have any sort of identification in this country and many people don't have any.  So to need to show ID in order to vote has to be anti democratic.  Wasn't it the Tories who threw out the previous governments proposal for ID cards.


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## hors limite (Apr 22, 2018)

I have already described the treatment of the "Windrushers" as appalling. I am simply saying that I can't see any downsides to voter ID, many of our European neighbours, Germany and Norway for example require it. Just because Windrush was a colossal cock up doesn't automatically de-legitimise any discussion of how our voting methods might be improved.


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## bluewolf (Apr 22, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I have already described the treatment of the "Windrushers" as appalling. I am simply saying that I can't see any downsides to voter ID, many of our European neighbours, Germany and Norway for example require it. Just because Windrush was a colossal cock up doesn't automatically de-legitimise any discussion of how our voting methods might be improved.
		
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Do our voting methods need improving? I'm not aware of any real need. With all due respect, this appears to be a sneaky way to implement ID cards.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2018)

Benjamin Zephaniah talking some sense on the telly this morning...

Ditch the point scoring and sort the 'issue' as soon as...

And, I am with the lady saying we need to be making it easier for folk to vote not be putting more obstacles in the way...


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## Vancanh (Apr 23, 2018)

it's bad


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2018)

Not at all convincing a statement from the Home Secretary today on this - that this issue has been known since 2015 and that 'regions' have been working towards targets.  And she didn't know.  Did the previous Home Secretary know.  What is worse?  That they didn't know, or that they knew but didn't deem the issue significant enough to look into.  The latter methinks.  

And as far as immigration and deportation targets - Low Hanging Fruit? - and so it will come to pass to an even greater extent in the future.


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## IanM (Apr 26, 2018)

Targets for deporting illegals.  Sounds sensible to me. 

Cock up over identifying who can stay or who shouldn't.  Bloody daft and unforgivable!!

Allowing ISIS fighters back it.  Even dafter. 


See. Dead simple.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2018)

Absolute nonsense calling for Rudd's resignation, she was only implementing May's policies. 
She is the one who should go.

I think this Windrush thingy will play on for a long long time.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Absolute nonsense calling for Rudd's resignation, she was only implementing May's policies. 
She is the one who should go.

I think this Windrush thingy will play on for a long long time.
		
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Rudd has been caught lying twice this week. First when she said there were no targets, then when she said she was unaware of them. The woman is shameless, and May is too scared to sack her.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Do our voting methods need improving? I'm not aware of any real need. With all due respect, this appears to be a sneaky way to implement ID cards.
		
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I think they most certainly do, I was sent a lovely photo of students in a college asking voters/ students to register in there college town so they can vote. Then they can travel back to there home address and vote again. Done with a "Vote Labour" poster in the background. If it is open to abuse, it needs changing.

Why would you not want an ID card anyway?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



			Rudd has been caught lying twice this week. First when she said there were no targets, then when she said she was unaware of them. The woman is shameless, and May is too scared to sack her.
		
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She is implementing May's Tory policy , supported [or not objected to] by the vast majority of MP's.

Only a couple of dozen Labour, SNP, Plaid Cmyru and Green voted against [inc Corbyn BTW]
Makes me mad to see many MP's taking the high moral ground for a bill they voted or abstained on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2018)

Apparently this outrageous situation has existed since at least the 1980's and yet, despite there having been five other PM's in that time (including two Labour) it's all down to Mrs May. 

Perhaps I am unusual in being more interested in the solution rather than trying to make some Party political point.


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## doublebogey7 (Apr 28, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			I think they most certainly do, I was sent a lovely photo of students in a college asking voters/ students to register in there college town so they can vote. Then they can travel back to there home address and vote again. Done with a "Vote Labour" poster in the background. If it is open to abuse, it needs changing.

Why would you not want an ID card anyway?
		
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Please explain how requiring ID at polling stations will prevent students or anyone else from registering twice. In answer to you second question because in the UK we are not required to hold any form of ID so will disenfrahise those that have a right to vote but have no ID


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 28, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



*Apparently this outrageous situation has existed since at least the 1980's *and yet, despite there having been five other PM's in that time (including two Labour) it's all down to Mrs May. 

Perhaps I am unusual in being more interested in the solution rather than trying to make some Party political point.
		
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Pretty sure the changes in the immigration law that led to this happened in 2012.  Which by my maths is not 'at least the 1980s'.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 28, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			I think they most certainly do, I was sent a lovely photo of students in a college asking voters/ students to register in there college town so they can vote. Then they can travel back to there home address and vote again. Done with a "Vote Labour" poster in the background. If it is open to abuse, it needs changing.

*Why would you not want an ID card anyway*?
		
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Because, at a time when our public services are starved of money, it would cost billions, if people really wanted to they could forge one anyway plus I have a drivers license, passport, NI number etc etc already. 

 So why bother spending vast amounts of money we do not have introducing them for no specific reason?


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			In answer to you second question because in the UK we are not required to hold any form of ID
		
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I presume you are familiar with the not so new driving license.  The majority of countries do have ID cards yet there seem to be some paranoia in this country against them.

I carried on for over 22 years and found them very handy at times.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I presume you are familiar with the not so new driving license.  The majority of countries do have ID cards yet there seem to be some paranoia in this country against them.

I carried on for over 22 years and found them very handy at times.
		
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So why spend billions we do not have on an ID card if driving licenses do the job in a majority of cases?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			So why spend billions we do not have on an ID card if driving licenses do the job in a majority of cases?
		
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Errr!  Some people don't drive, some are not old enough to drive and some are banned from Driving.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			So why spend billions we do not have on an ID card if driving licenses do the job in a majority of cases?
		
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Im not arguing in favor or against, I just don't understand (unless it's financial) some people's paranoia on the subject.


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## doublebogey7 (Apr 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I presume you are familiar with the not so new driving license.  The majority of countries do have ID cards yet there seem to be some paranoia in this country against them.

I carried on for over 22 years and found them very handy at times.
		
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The driving licence is not a form of ID but a document that proves your entitlement to drive.
 I am not in  principle against the issuing of ID cards to all citizens.  But I am against the requirment to prove ID in order to vote,  in a country that doesn't have a mandatory form of ID.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty sure the changes in the immigration law that led to this happened in 2012.  Which by my maths is not 'at least the 1980s'.
		
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Then perhaps you can explain that to the man who has found himself stuck in Trinidad since 1983.

Originally came to UK in 1950's as a  child  returned to Trinidad for a  holiday but was refused re-entry to this country as he could not prove he had originally entered legally.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty sure the changes in the immigration law that led to this happened in 2012.  Which by my maths is not 'at least the 1980s'.
		
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What are the changes that have been made to the immigration laws and to which you refer?

As far as I can see it has been a  question of implementing the existing legislation.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 28, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			The driving licence is not a form of ID but a document that proves *your *entitlement to drive.
 I am not in  principle against the issuing of ID cards to all citizens.  But I am against the requirment to prove ID in order to vote,  in a country that doesn't have a mandatory form of ID.
		
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*Your* being the pertinent point; *your* right, not anybody else's.  Hence the licence identifies *you*, so that it is understood *who* has that entitlement.


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## ger147 (Apr 29, 2018)

Rudd is gone...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Im not arguing in favor or against, I just don't understand (unless it's financial) some people's paranoia on the subject.
		
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Because in this country the authorities have never had the right to stop us in the street and ask us to prove who we are.  Bring in an ID card and it may well be compulsory to carry it and if it is compulsory to carry it then the authorities would have the right to stop us and ask us to provide it on request.  And if you cannot do that are you someone who has simply forgotten to bring it with you or are you an illegal immigrant who does not have one.  I guess what happens then depends...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			What are the changes that have been made to the immigration laws and to which you refer?

As far as I can see it has been a  question of implementing the existing legislation.
		
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Well there was this from 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24469584


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## Stuart_C (Apr 29, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Rudd is gone...
		
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May has thrown her under a bus.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well there was this from 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24469584

Click to expand...

But this did not pertain to those like the Windrush Generation who are here legally and whose citizenship rights should not be questioned. 

Throughout this whole debate has become clouded by confusing a Government's rightful attempt to deal with illegal immigration and a truly terrible administrative cock-up that dragged innocent people into question. 

I am, of course, presuming that there are none on here who do not think it is the responsibility of the Government to make  every effort to deal with illegal immigration.


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## User62651 (Apr 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			May has thrown her under a bus.
		
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Bit sorry for her, seemed like a capable minister and a moderate Tory too. Javid for HS apparently. Could argue Boris has made more cock ups than Rudd but he seems untouchable. Party to lurch even further right probably.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			But this did not pertain to those like the Windrush Generation who are here legally and whose citizenship rights should not be questioned. 

Throughout this whole debate has become clouded by confusing a Government's rightful attempt to deal with illegal immigration and a truly terrible administrative cock-up that dragged innocent people into question. 

I am, of course, presuming that there are none on here who do not think it is the responsibility of the Government to make  every effort to deal with illegal immigration.
		
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Yes - the Windrush Generation of Caribbean immigrants are here legally - but if I cannot provide the required documentation then as the default position set out is that I am guilty of being an illegal immigrant until I prove myself innocent of that charge, then I am in trouble.  But vigorous prosecution and hardening of that policy was May's idea - to create the 'hostile environment' that would encourage illegal immigrants to take themselves off home - we end up with the scandalous mess that we now have.

And when we take that mentality and approach forward when 'hunting down' illegal immigrants from the EU27 - and asking those from the EU27 who have been in the UK for goodness knows how long - decades for some - to prove their right to be here?  It is disgusting what is happening to this country in our treatment of individuals - when we are by tradition, history and nature a welcoming ad accommodating country.  No longer.  In respect of immigration we are becoming a resentful, suspicious and rather unpleasant country.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - the Windrush Generation of Caribbean immigrants are here legally - but if I cannot provide the required documentation then as the default position set out is that I am guilty of being an illegal immigrant until I prove myself innocent of that charge, then I am in trouble.
		
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So are you proposing all  illegal immigrants should be considered "legal" until the authorities prove otherwise?

And what should be done in the meantime 
 with those who are under suspicion?

Will they be kept in detention or should they be allowed to disappear back into society?

Not an easy one!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit sorry for her, seemed like a capable minister and a moderate Tory too. Javid for HS apparently. Could argue Boris has made more cock ups than Rudd but he seems untouchable. Party to lurch even further right probably.
		
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I agree - and I may be a cynic but suspect that the only reason that Boris has not been sacked whilst Rudd has gone is that the former is too dangerous a Brexiteer to have on the back-benches.  I too rather liked Amber Rudd - notwithstanding the disgrace of this scandal as she has scrabbled around trying protect her boss without admitting her own culpability - or perhaps acquiescing to the demands of her boss and others in her statements over the last week.  Well I do hope that she starts talking the reality of the mess we are in from  the backbenches.

The PM knew of the deceit and deception being perpetrated by her HS - and said nothing - so for me the PM is complicit in that deceit and deception.  May has lost her personal plot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			So are you proposing all  illegal immigrants should be considered "legal" until the authorities prove otherwise?

And what should be done in the meantime 
 with those who are under suspicion?

Will they be kept in detention or should they be allowed to disappear back into society?

Not an easy one!
		
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How do you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal one?  Do the illegal immigrants have a special stamp on their forehead that identifies them without needing to be asked?  And if you have to ask then you will inevitably be asking legal immigrants as well as illegal ones - and when you ask them to prove their residency rights and they cannot - then what?

And I'll bet nobody will ever stop me and ask me to provide proof of my right of residency.  Unless that is we have a compulsory ID card.  And then if I don't have it...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How do you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal one?  Do the illegal immigrants have a special stamp on their forehead that identifies them without needing to be asked?  And if you have to ask then you will inevitably be asking legal immigrants - and when you ask them to prove their residency rights and they cannot - then what?
		
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Is that not what I said?

It is not easy but are the authorities to just ignore the problem for fear of falsely accusing a legal immigrant. 

Easy to criticise but rather more difficult to be constructive but then I suppose that's to be expected on an internet forum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Is that not what I said?

It is not easy but are the authorities to just ignore the problem for fear of falsely accusing a legal immigrant. 

Easy to criticise but rather more difficult to be constructive but then I suppose that's to be expected on an internet forum.
		
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Government has to come up with something that actually *avoids *the risk of getting it badly wrong - not just accepting that there will be times that the authorities will get it wrong.   When they get it wrong things can be desperate for real people who have done nothing wrong.  And they must tell those with the immigration dog-whistle where to put their whistles.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because, at a time when our public services are starved of money, it would cost billions, if people really wanted to they could forge one anyway plus I have a drivers license, passport, NI number etc etc already. 

 So why bother spending vast amounts of money we do not have introducing them for no specific reason?
		
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Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - and I may be a cynic but suspect that the only reason that Boris has not been sacked whilst Rudd has gone is that the former is too dangerous a Brexiteer to have on the back-benches.  I too rather liked Amber Rudd - notwithstanding the disgrace of this scandal as she has scrabbled around trying protect her boss without admitting her own culpability - or perhaps acquiescing to the demands of her boss and others in her statements over the last week.  Well I do hope that she starts talking the reality of the mess we are in from  the backbenches.

The PM knew of the deceit and deception being perpetrated by her HS - and said nothing - so for me the PM is complicit in that deceit and deception.  May has lost her personal plot.
		
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I'd just like to point out Boris is not a 'Brexiteer'... He saw an opportunity to further his career and took it... As, up until then he'd nearly always shown support for the EU... BoJo's only thought/concern is for himself... And, will do whatever it takes to get to the front of the queue...

Our biggest concern is that the blue rinse folk love him too bits...
And, that is what frightens Ms May...


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## Tashyboy (Apr 30, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Please explain how requiring ID at polling stations will prevent students or anyone else from registering twice. In answer to you second question because in the UK we are not required to hold any form of ID so will disenfrahise those that have a right to vote but have no ID
		
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A national id system would /should be electronic. If the electoral system is synched to that. Once you have voted it is registered. Simples. No id, no vote. I donâ€™t  have a problem with that. The current voting system Mentioned is open to abuse. 
Which has nowt to do with the windrush scandal btw.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 30, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.
		
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Finding 'illegals' is easy it's what to do with them once identified that's the problem...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Government has to come up with something that actually *avoids *the risk of getting it badly wrong - not just accepting that there will be times that the authorities will get it wrong.   When they get it wrong things can be desperate for real people who have done nothing wrong.  And they must tell those with the immigration dog-whistle where to put their whistles.
		
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Interesting to hear Mike O'Brien, a former Labour minister, on BBC radio expressing some sympathy with Ms.Rudd and stating his opinion that of all the Departments of State the Home Office is probably the worst as a ministerial appointment. 

There appears to be a detachment between Government policy and its application by the HO.

This culture has, seemingly, existed for many years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I'd just like to point out Boris is not a 'Brexiteer'... He saw an opportunity to further his career and took it... As, up until then he'd nearly always shown support for the EU... BoJo's only thought/concern is for himself... And, will do whatever it takes to get to the front of the queue...

Our biggest concern is that the blue rinse folk love him too bits...
And, that is what frightens Ms May...
		
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OK - sorry - I was trying to be nice - Boris the Cheating Chancer - because he is factually all that and more.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I'll bet nobody will ever stop me and ask me to provide proof of my right of residency.  Unless that is we have a compulsory ID card.  And then if I don't have it...
		
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Companies are asking for a copy of a passport and NI number as part of the interview for a job. If you change jobs you should be asked. Its part of an amendment of the 2008 Nationalities Act.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Interesting to hear Mike O'Brien, a former Labour minister, on BBC radio expressing some sympathy with Ms.Rudd and stating his opinion that of all the Departments of State the Home Office is probably the worst as a ministerial appointment. 

There appears to be a detachment between Government policy and its application by the HO.

This culture has, seemingly, existed for many years.
		
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Where there is a problematic culture burning away, what you just don't do is poke it or pour petrol on it - and that is what May as HS absolutely did.  I do not believe there has been *any *detachment between government and HO on implementation of immigration policy.  I suspect that the HO office understand absolutely coded messages contained in government policy and statements made by ministers in respect of immigration - messages that are too unpalatable for ministers to be explicit about.  Civil Servants do not just make up policy - they know what they are actually being asked to do and will make sure that government knows what they are doing.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where there is a problematic culture burning away, what you just don't do is poke it or pour petrol on it - and that is what May as HS absolutely did.  I do not believe there has been *any *detachment between government and HO on implementation of immigration policy.  I suspect that the HO office understand absolutely coded messages contained in government policy and statements made by ministers in respect of immigration - messages that are too unpalatable for ministers to be explicit about.  Civil Servants do not just make up policy - they know what they are actually being asked to do and will make sure that government knows what they are doing.
		
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End of discussion!

You now clearly want to use this as yet another opportunity to air your anti-Brexit and anti-Tory prejudices. 

You have absolutely no idea of what the inner workings of the Home Office might be but when has a lack of knowledge ever stopped you.

A former HO Minister described his own experiences whilst there but you dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I now remember why I previously decided to steer clear of the political posts on this forum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			End of discussion!

You now clearly want to use this as yet another opportunity to air your anti-Brexit and anti-Tory prejudices. 

You have absolutely no idea of what the inner workings of the Home Office might be but when has a lack of knowledge ever stopped you.

A former HO Minister described his own experiences whilst there but you dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I now remember why I previously decided to steer clear of the political posts on this forum.
		
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How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require?  Well I suppose there was _*Yes Minister*_ and *Yes Prime Minister* as our sources of truth.  

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.
		
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But unfortunately cost/money will play a huge part in any decision.  It is political suicide really for any government to decide to spend billions on an ID scheme to solve some non-defined 'national security' problem when the public services are so publicity short of cash. 

As I'm not a huge fan of the Tories I kind of hope they decide to go for it as it will inevitably end in tears.  But I think they are not that stupid.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 30, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit sorry for her, seemed like a capable minister and a moderate Tory too. Javid for HS apparently. Could argue Boris has made more cock ups than Rudd but he seems untouchable. Party to lurch even further right probably.
		
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I dont. She's paid a very good wage to do her job, the least she can do is be honest when being questioned. 

That goes for all MP's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			I dont. She's paid a very good wage to do her job, the least she can do is be honest when being questioned. 

That goes for all MP's.
		
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Of course she should answer honestly - but that can be difficult especially if she was under duress (real or imagined) to answer as she did.  

Did you hear Brandon Lewis on Marr yesterday excruciatingly trying to differentiate between a _target _and an _ambition_.  So when Cameron and then May talked about getting immigration into the 10s of thousands that wasn't a target it was an ambition - and of course they are quite different?  Tell you what.  I bet you a lot of the electorate took it as a committed-to target - especially when May has been pressed on it and she has reiterated it.

Why was he doing this?

Low Hanging Fruit and all that.  Disgraceful. Who next?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require?  Well I suppose there was _*Yes Minister*_ and *Yes Prime Minister* as our sources of truth.  

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...
		
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By listening this morning to Mike O'Brien on BBC 5Live who, in his time, served as a Minister in a number of Departments.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require?  Well I suppose there was _*Yes Minister*_ and *Yes Prime Minister* as our sources of truth.  

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...
		
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It's unreasonable to expect someone like a Cabinet Minister  or the CEO of a Large organisation to know the detail of every memo / policy/ discussion that takes place.   You have to delegate responsibility to people that have been given a brief and then need to create the systems / processes to actuate the policy.   OK, as the head of department you are ultimately responsible but if the people down the chain fail to carry out policy outlined then they should be held to account.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2018)

Today

_Labour has used its opposition day debate to put the governmentâ€™s back against the wall over Windrush, tabling this motion which attempts to force the effective publication of all internal discussions about the Windrush cohort over the past eight years. That would mean we could find out what happened inside the Home Office when May was in chargeâ€¦

Tory MPs were put on a three-line whip this morning to vote against the motion, which looks like a vote against transparency, all the more awkward the day before the local elections. Labour are already gearing up to call â€œcover upâ€:
_
https://order-order.com/2018/05/02/tories-on-three-line-whip-to-vote-against-windrush-transparency/

Why is May applying a 3-line whip over this - what does she not want out there? Is she soooo in hock to the Daily Mail and the Sun over immigration?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It's unreasonable to expect someone like a Cabinet Minister  or the CEO of a Large organisation to know the detail of every memo / policy/ discussion that takes place.   You have to delegate responsibility to people that have been given a brief and then need to create the systems / processes to actuate the policy.   OK, as the head of department you are ultimately responsible but if the people down the chain fail to carry out policy outlined then they should be held to account.
		
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..and if they do not carry out the policy for whatever reason? - then perhaps it is you as the CEO who must ultimately take responsibility for the existence of the environment or culture in which that has happened.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2018)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/british-man-who-never-even-12465021

Our government is now reaching new levels of incompetence, this scenario would automatically have been rejected as too silly for a Goodies sketch.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and if they do not carry out the policy for whatever reason? - then perhaps it is you as the CEO who must ultimately take responsibility for the existence of the environment or culture in which that has happened.
		
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Its not that simple.  A CEO is a long way from the coalface and in large organisations tends to be dealing with corporate strategy and satisfying the expectations of shareholders and the market.    Organisational culture is a fairly complex subject and normally not a direct result of the way a particular CEO operates.  I would challenge anyone to be aware of every policy and memo existing in an organisation the size of the Home Office.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 3, 2018)

Still no real understanding of why there was a 3-line whip on Tory MPs last night on the vote to release all comms relating to the Windrush Generation immigration problem?  Could it be because the governments CEO (the PM) was right behind and driving the policy - and fully cognisant of the severe personal issues being faced by many?  Because 'protecting the boss' is what a 3-line whip on the matter seems like.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Still no real understanding of why there was a 3-line whip on Tory MPs last night on the vote to release all comms relating to the Windrush Generation immigration problem?  Could it be because the governments CEO (the PM) was right behind and driving the policy - and fully cognisant of the severe personal issues being faced by many?  Because 'protecting the boss' is what a 3-line whip on the matter seems like.
		
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Yes ..so much for an open democracy.
Can anyone remember May's speech when she entered No10.

This desperate government have an awful lot to hide but I am certain that the UK voters are not so thick as to see this for what it is.


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK voters are not so thick as to see this for what it is.
		
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Now there's a great U Turn :lol:


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## HughJars (May 3, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not that simple.  A CEO is a long way from the coalface and in large organisations tends to be dealing with corporate strategy and satisfying the expectations of shareholders and the market.    Organisational culture is a fairly complex subject and normally not a direct result of the way a particular CEO operates.  I would challenge anyone to be aware of every policy and memo existing in an organisation the size of the Home Office.
		
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that would be fine if this wasn't a specific policy implemented by May. It's also confirmed that Rudd had emails directly relating to the policy during her tenure that would have alerted her to this. She's either complicit or incompetent. May is both.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Now there's a great U Turn :lol:
		
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  :rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Now there's a great U Turn :lol:
		
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Please explain, I think you may be confused.


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please explain, I think you may be confused.
		
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No confusion my end thanks for your concern.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			No confusion my end thanks for your concern.
		
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If you are not confused then it should be quite easy for you to explain what on earth you are wittering on about.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are not confused then it should be quite easy for you to explain what on earth you are wittering on about.
		
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You really do like to forget what you post when it suits. Try going back to one of your posts in the 1000 odd pages of the Article 50 thread if your that interested.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2018)

HughJars said:



			that would be fine if this wasn't a specific policy implemented by May. It's also confirmed that Rudd had emails directly relating to the policy during her tenure that would have alerted her to this. *She's either complicit or incompetent. May is both.*

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And you'd think that that is self-evident and undeniable - but some will argue the contrary.  She who is Strong & Stable must be protected.  

This should have caused the Tories to be ripped apart in the local elections.  That they haven't been points both at the weakness and attractiveness of Labour in the eyes of the electorate - plus I fear an acceptance amongst some Tory voters that such scandals will be the inevitable but unfortunately acceptable cost of a strict immigration policy.  

And of course for those who see it as an acceptable policy and approach to identifying and dealing with illegal immigration - well that's easy to say when you are never going to be impacted by such a policy - it's easy when it others.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			You really do like to forget what you post when it suits. Try going back to one of your posts in the 1000 odd pages of the Article 50 thread if your that interested.
		
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A50 is a different thread to Windrush.

Why am I not surprised that you cannot even give even one example of what you are alluding.
I shall leave it there and not respond to any more of your very tiresome insulting posts.


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A50 is a different thread to Windrush.

Why am I not surprised that you cannot even give even one example of what you are alluding.
I shall leave it there and not respond to any more of your very tiresome insulting posts.
		
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Are you intentionally being obtuse. Here's a clue:  Who were too stupid to understand the ramifications of Brexit but are clever enough to understand the details of Windrush.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you intentionally being obtuse. Here's a clue:  Who were too stupid to understand the ramifications of Brexit but are clever enough to understand the details of Windrush.
		
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Cheers.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I shall leave it there and not respond to any more of your very tiresome insulting posts.
		
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Tiresome, possibly, insulting never unless in response. Once again you choose to make things up.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you intentionally being obtuse. Here's a clue:  Who were too stupid to understand the ramifications of Brexit but are clever enough to understand the details of Windrush.
		
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Dunno mate, you tell me.

BTW stupid is a word I always try desperately hard to avoid using, no matter how severely provoked.


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## SocketRocket (May 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dunno mate, you tell me.

BTW stupid is a word I always try desperately hard to avoid using, no matter how severely provoked.
		
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Unbelievable


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