# Changes to Highest Male Handicap



## Foliage Finder (Jun 24, 2015)

Afternoon all,

Whilst chatting to the pro at the range, he has mentioned twice in the past couple of weeks that there are plans to raise the maximum male handicap from 28 to 40, in order to more accurately represent the spectrum of amateur players. I'm having some difficulty finding anything online about it, has anybody else heard or does anybody else know of these proposed changes?

I'd be all for it. As a new player, I regularly shoot worse than double bogey. Although I can track my scores via totting up Stableford pts with a theoretical 28 h'cap or simply by counting strokes, I'd like to have a handicap that means something and provides a basis to track improvement.

What does everyone think? Would we perhaps see separate club comps for these lower handicappers?


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2015)

Thought it was going to be increased to 36 for men and 54 for women. Likelihood is a lot of clubs will retain a maximum of 28 I expect, at least as far as competitions are concerned, I know we plan to if it is introduced


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 24, 2015)

If I couldn't get down from 28h/c reasonably quick I'd have thought that maybe golf wasn't for me.


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

Dear God, here we go.


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## jamielaing (Jun 24, 2015)

I understand the frustrations of not being able to play to your handicap. That's why a lot of courses (including mine) offer juniors an unofficial playing handicap above 28 (I once saw a junior off 105!) to allow them to play and compete in junior competitions. I do however think it is unnecessary in men's golf. I know my frustrations when I had a net 63 and was sure I was in for the trophy only to be beaten by a net 59 by a high handicapper who has either had the round of his life or has possibly not had a fair reflecting handicap so to speak. I couldn't imagine how I would feel losing to net 49s!


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jun 24, 2015)

Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:


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## PuttPuttSteve (Jun 24, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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Agree :thup:


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## Craigg (Jun 24, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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I agree with this. 18 shots is plenty. I currently don't have a handicap but hover around the 20/22 mark in general play. If golfers are entering competitions with these ridiculouslyhigh numbers of shots, there is no incentive to get better. Make it 18 max and if you're serious about winning, you will have to put some effort in. There is also the obvious reason for not having these high numbers! The B word!


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## Oddsocks (Jun 24, 2015)

I kinda agree with the one shot per whole, even two on the longer par' 4's, but we have a p3 with an si of 3, ok it plays 200+ into the wind but still....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 24, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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Totally Disagree, why? 28 works and has done for years, starting off 18 will make it unplayable for a lot of people starting Golf and possibly put them off, most 19-28 players are genuine and imo the fear of losing the odd comp to someone off 19+ people come out withis statement.
Using my Club as an example, we had the chinese whispers of people fed up with the high Handicappers winning everything, so the Club introduced a couple of Comps that were played off 3/4 handicap maximum 18, over a period of 10 months one of the members took the time to analize all Comps, 80% of all handicap comps were won by people who's handicaps were 10-16, only 4 Comps were won with a handicap over 18 the rest were won by Single figure Golfers. I believe this would reflect the majority of Golf Clubs in the UK. 
Dropping it to 18 would, imo, see a drop in the numbers of people playing in comps and a drop in revenue to Club funds as happened at our place as those off 28, for example, had to make 10 shots beofre teeing of on the 1st so didn't even bother entering those comps.


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## drew83 (Jun 24, 2015)

As a 28 handicap I would like it to be higher to give me more of a chance with the guys I play with. I can normally scrape around 20 points, but they easily hit low 30 to mid 30s each time. So I would like the opportunity to be in with more of a chance.

That said, there would be no incentive to get better if I didn't have to work hard to try & and beat them.

I could see an introductory handicap of say 36 for men. for the 1st 6-12 months. give them a chance to get into the game etc. after that they can only play of a maximum 28 (or less?).

I think there needs to be a bit more to control nomadic handicaps. I know of someone who is not a member, plays to a good standard in my eyes (was at 18 last year). after 6 months off due to bad weather and work commitments came back out a few weeks ago & declared himself off 23.  promptly walked off with 42 or 43 points.....

I realise that if you get membership somewhere then you can get a proper handicap etc, but for those that don't want to take a  membership & like to move about, some sort of regulation would be good.

Now, how it will be done, no idea! We try to keep it fair by having a central database of the years rounds & work out our end of year society handicap when we go away for the weekends. But in the meantime, anyone can state anything......


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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But isn't that just going to put even more new players off joining if they have to start with a 18 handicap and end up with 10 stableford points at best?  As much as some people would like to think they will persevere, practice hard and dedicate their lives to lowering it till they properly play off 18, in reality a vast majority may well say, sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm off to do something else where I can get some enjoyment and compete.  Life is too short.

Much as my heart bleeds for some amateurs who look like they might win one comp but are pipped at the last by a relatively high handicapper who was just on one that day, surely the bigger picture needs to be taken into account?

And being argumentative for the sake of it, another opinion could be that if amateurs are frightened of getting beat by someone with a higher handicap then get better so you can play in scratch comps where you won't have to worry about 'bandits'.


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## Foliage Finder (Jun 24, 2015)

PuttPuttSteve said:



			Agree :thup:
		
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ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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I can understand the viewpoint, especially in comps where I would be frustrated as a mid-low h'capper by a someone off 28 coming in with the round of their season to win. However, having a blanket max handicap of 18 would put off a lot of people from taking up the game in the first place. The problems of high h'cappers in competitions as far as I can tell is somewhat solved by having restrictions on who can play. These could be modified should the max limit increase.

Without trying to read between the lines, I get the gist that because male players hit it further than ladies, they should only have one shot per hole. That doesn't allow for mistakes made by less experienced players on shorter shots or around the green. Isn't the whole point of having a handicap to level the playing field across the board for players of different abilities/experience, not just on full shots/off the tee? Not to mention that I'm sure there are plenty of lady golfers around (definitely on this forum) that could outdrive me any day of the week.

It's easy enough to say max one shot per hole when you have years of experience of the game, but the thought of that to someone like me who has only just started seems like something I'd need a good 6-12 months more of solid playing experience to achieve. I remember Curls posting a while back saying an 18 h'capper is not much more than a consistent 28 h'capper, and a max limit of 18 wouldn't allow for that transition period to occur without either giving up or going mental.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2015)

Can't believe no one has mentioned getting the popcorn in before now! As the move seems to be to raise the h/c any discussion about 18 max seems a bit academic. The move is the other way, not that way. 

If low h/c are so sensitive, bless em, why not split comp prizes to people 0-18 and 18+. As a higher handicapper I personally couldn't give a monkeys about walking away with a trophy. If I play in a comp the aim is to reduce my h/c to respectability. If anything else happens it is a bonus but I don't expect it. I know if I currently win a comp with my h/c then I have had more than a little assistance. That is how golf works, fair enough but in my heart I know I have won by the back door. If I won a competition competed for by 18+ h/c then I know a victory would be more reasonable.  No need for separate trophies. That goes to the winning golfer in the 0-18 section, incentive there for higher players to get lower. Somehow the money would be split, how is up to each club. Would that satisfy more people?


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## duncan mackie (Jun 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Dear God, here we go.
		
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:thup:

but in fairness many of the posts here simply reflect the initial reaction of many in committees around the country from what I have seen and heard.

you have to press the quiet ones for an opinion, as ever, and most seem to have an excellent understanding of the issues.

their is a huge issue with seniors dropping off the memberships because they can no longer enjoy even slightly competitive golf outwith small closed groups who use their own handicap system. at 85 (for example) they have given up entering competitions after 10 years of 0.1s have them firmly up against the buffers of 28.0  They may well have played to a better handicap than most posting their opinions on what constitutes a golfer and that people should give up etc - but time moves on.

it does have the potential to impact the fast improvers, but frankly anyone who's going to improve that quickly isn't going to fall into this category anyway; by the time they put in their 3rd card they will be off 28!

As to giving shots - I suspect that the move to 90% (from 3/4) in 4BBB will cause more cry's of anguish in time - they will be correct to complain as it should of course be 100% difference!!!

Anyhow, all of this will pale into insignificance with the core changes in 2020 :whoo:


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## rksquire (Jun 24, 2015)

Foliage Finder said:



			Afternoon all,

Whilst chatting to the pro at the range, he has mentioned twice in the past couple of weeks that there are plans to raise the maximum male handicap from 28 to 40, in order to more accurately represent the spectrum of amateur players.....
		
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I don't like it, but I see the logic - I know plenty of guys that would benefit from this and make them competitive, as they're not off 28



jamielaing said:



			...(I once saw a junior off 105!) *NUTS*..... I know my frustrations when I had a net 63 and was sure I was in for the trophy only to be beaten by a net 59 by a high handicapper who has either had the round of his life or has possibly not had a fair reflecting handicap so to speak. I couldn't imagine how I would feel losing to net 49s!
		
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But.. it would have been a hefty cut thereafter, and also a net 63 means you also had an exceptional round and wouldn't have been happy with the 3 h/capper sitting on net 64 taking exception at your 63



ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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Craigg said:



			...., there is no incentive to get better. Make it 18 max and if you're serious about winning, you will have to put some effort in. There is also the obvious reason for not having these high numbers! The B word!
		
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The problem is providing incentive for people to stay in the game.  A guy on 40 will compete and want to improve because getting better is achievable; starting on 18, a newbie might take years and that's not worth his investment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 24, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Can't believe no one has mentioned getting the popcorn in before now! As the move seems to be to raise the h/c any discussion about 18 max seems a bit academic. The move is the other way, not that way. 

If low h/c are so sensitive, bless em, why not split comp prizes to people 0-18 and 18+. As a higher handicapper I personally couldn't give a monkeys about walking away with a trophy. If I play in a comp the aim is to reduce my h/c to respectability. If anything else happens it is a bonus but I don't expect it. I know if I currently win a comp with my h/c then I have had more than a little assistance. That is how golf works, fair enough but in my heart I know I have won by the back door. If I won a competition competed for by 18+ h/c then I know a victory would be more reasonable.  No need for separate trophies. That goes to the winning golfer in the 0-18 section, incentive there for higher players to get lower. Somehow the money would be split, how is up to each club. Would that satisfy more people?
		
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We already have this though, just more play Comps in Divisions, like you I enter to reduce my Handicap and that would be more than enough to stroke my ego, if I could actually do it!! :lol:


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## chellie (Jun 24, 2015)

Jeez, I'm glad most women I've met don't think we should only get one shot a hole.


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## massivebelterlad (Jun 24, 2015)

if it aint broke don't fix it


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

Picture the scene.  

3 four balls of 40 handicapers playing in the monthly medal.


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## louise_a (Jun 24, 2015)

Ladies have had 36 max for years, ( I know it used to be 45 for a while), At my club most of the competitions are won by players under 24, more often than not under 18. I cant see what all the fuss is about with raising the handicap limit, you still have to play to it.


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## rksquire (Jun 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Picture the scene.
		
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garyinderry said:



3 four balls of 40 handicapers playing in the monthly medal.

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But we do already - they're called 28 handicappers or you know, just 'high' handicappers.


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## walliams8 (Jun 24, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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Completley disagree .  That is of course unless you want 50% of golfers dropping out because they can't compete .


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm all for it, especially for us seniors that struggle to reach most fairways.


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2015)

Raise away and use comp entry limits and category prizes to keep interest up across the groups.  Is there anything to stop a club playing a combined stableford and stroke comp?

 Why can't someone join a club and start with a handicap of 36 if that's as well as they can play? They can still enjoy the game and work to improve with the goal being to lower it to increase their chances to win a better prize. 

One of the biggest thing I've noticed (and was guilty of when I started) with higher handicappers is reluctance to enter comps until they improve.  So they get a high initial handicap, play bounce games, work on their game and enter when they feel they've improved.   Result. The 28 handicap beginner had spent months improving their game while avoiding qualifying rounds. They now have a much better game and then face the stigma of being branded a bandit because all the work they've done to improve is rewarded with a competition round significantly below handicap but the handicap system then takes time to catch up to them. 

It'll take me at least 6 years before I can take advantage of any increase anyway


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

If only there was a course where people could learn to play, with less hazards, shorter rough, shorter length and at a reduced rate. 

There would be no need for anything as ridiculous as a 40 handicap if people could learn to play the game before being thrust into the murky world of competitive amateur golf.


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## chellie (Jun 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			If only there was a course where people could learn to play, with less hazards, shorter rough, shorter length and at a reduced rate. 

There would be no need for anything as ridiculous as a 40 handicap if people could learn to play the game before being thrust into the murky world of competitive amateur golf.
		
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It's inconsistency that's stopping me getting lower. Have parred all of the holes at ours just not in the same round and don't get more than a couple usually with a card in my hand. I just can't stop having two horror holes that wreck a card. Would imagine it's the same for all with a high handicap. How many years would you suggest I not play a proper course


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## steadyeddy (Jun 24, 2015)

There are a number of changes being *considered* as follows:[h=4]CONGU are considering a number of changes to the Unified Handicapping System for implementation in 2016 as follows:[/h]

4BBB allowance to change to 90% instead of the current three quarters (75%)
Along with the existing Exceptional Scoring Reduction, an Exceptional Scoring Increase is to be introduced
Annual Review dates to change to Oct/Nov/Dec so any adjustments are in place by January
To accept Supplementary Scores from a playerâ€™s away club, currently only scores at a playerâ€™s home club are accepted
9-Hole Supplementary Scores accepted 
Remember you have to apply to CONGU to rate 9 holes of your course â€“ forms are available from your National Golf Union

Maximum handicaps to increase with Men rising to from 28 to 40 and Ladies from 36 to 54
Rules and Dates for preferred lies to change to allow for variable conditions around the country
These are proposals only and are yet to be approved by CONGU. More details will be released if the proposals are accepted.
By GCMA


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

I would suggest anyone who cannot score 36 points off the current maximum handicap be that 28 for men, 36 for women would benefit from playing easier shorter courses like municipals. 

It is so much easier to learn and improve at golf playing this type of golf.  Par 3 courses are great for tightening short games. 

Playing courses that are too long and or hard when you are not ready just put too much strain on weak parts of your game.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jun 24, 2015)

Foliage Finder said:



			I can understand the viewpoint, especially in comps where I would be frustrated as a mid-low h'capper by a someone off 28 coming in with the round of their season to win. However, having a blanket max handicap of 18 would put off a lot of people from taking up the game in the first place. The problems of high h'cappers in competitions as far as I can tell is somewhat solved by having restrictions on who can play. These could be modified should the max limit increase.

Without trying to read between the lines, I get the gist that because male players hit it further than ladies, they should only have one shot per hole. That doesn't allow for mistakes made by less experienced players on shorter shots or around the green. Isn't the whole point of having a handicap to level the playing field across the board for players of different abilities/experience, not just on full shots/off the tee? Not to mention that I'm sure there are plenty of lady golfers around (definitely on this forum) that could outdrive me any day of the week.

*It's easy enough to say max one shot per hole when you have years of experience of the game, but the thought of that to someone like me who has only just started seems like something I'd need a good 6-12 months more of solid playing experience to achieve. I remember Curls posting a while back saying an 18 h'capper is not much more than a consistent 28 h'capper, and a max limit of 18 wouldn't allow for that transition period to occur without either giving up or going mental.*

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Clearly you are young enough to not remember when the mens max h/c was 18, bladed clubs and small balls.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jun 24, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I'm all for it, especially for us seniors that struggle to reach most fairways.
		
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Yeeeesss Brian, I feel for you, you old boys should get a bit of extra help.

Steve


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## drdel (Jun 24, 2015)

Golf clubs are, in general, finding revenue hard to come by. So, they need new members and to hang onto the ones they have.

In general people are living longer and one of the best sources of income  is the older retirees.  These older golfers are likely to find their handicaps rising as their distances decline (and courses get longer).

Why not let handicaps rise? who does it hurt except the handicap snobs, the average golfer is not a bandit and, in reality, they are relatively rare but its a good reliable subject for a moan by the low handicappers who occasional get beaten. In any case if and when any of these 40 handicappers start to win their handicap will drop accordingly.

Storm in a tea cup by those members of committees who sit around looking for something to justify their existence - hence the increasing tortuous and lengthy rules that just continue to grow.

And, we wonder why young people find other sports with a lower monetary and psychological barriers to entry more attractive.


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## rosecott (Jun 24, 2015)

steadyeddy said:



			There are a number of changes being *considered* as follows:*CONGU are considering a number of changes to the Unified Handicapping System for implementation in 2016 as follows:*



4BBB allowance to change to 90% instead of the current three quarters (75%)
Along with the existing Exceptional Scoring Reduction, an Exceptional Scoring Increase is to be introduced
Annual Review dates to change to Oct/Nov/Dec so any adjustments are in place by January
To accept Supplementary Scores from a playerâ€™s away club, currently only scores at a playerâ€™s home club are accepted
9-Hole Supplementary Scores accepted 
Remember you have to apply to CONGU to rate 9 holes of your course â€“ forms are available from your National Golf Union

Maximum handicaps to increase with Men rising to from 28 to 40 and Ladies from 36 to 54
Rules and Dates for preferred lies to change to allow for variable conditions around the country
These are proposals only and are yet to be approved by CONGU. More details will be released if the proposals are accepted.
By GCMA

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Having attended one of the later EnglandGolf workshops in April, we were quite clearly advised that the proposals had been agreed with only the finer details of some of the proposals to be tweaked.

Kneejerk reactions to the handicap limits are quite understandable but there needs to be a sense of proportion. Players with 28 handicaps will not become 40 handicaps overnight. Handicap committees will still be following the rules for handicap allocation and will not be awarding handicaps of 40 if they are not justified - and they will still have the responsibility to monitor newly allocated handicaps to ensure they were appropriate. 

As said in other postings, I know many current 28 handicappers who would still be only barely competitive with a 40 handicap.


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## Foliage Finder (Jun 24, 2015)

steadyeddy said:



These are proposals only and are yet to be approved by CONGU. More details will be released if the proposals are accepted.
By GCMA

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Thanks for that link, been searching everywhere for the info! Will give it a proper read over in the morning


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Dear God, here we go.
		
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garyinderry said:



			Picture the scene.  

3 four balls of 40 handicapers playing in the monthly medal.
		
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garyinderry said:



			If only there was a course where people could learn to play, with less hazards, shorter rough, shorter length and at a reduced rate. 

There would be no need for anything as ridiculous as a 40 handicap if people could learn to play the game before being thrust into the murky world of competitive amateur golf.
		
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garyinderry said:



			I would suggest anyone who cannot score 36 points off the current maximum handicap be that 28 for men, 36 for women would benefit from playing easier shorter courses like municipals. 

It is so much easier to learn and improve at golf playing this type of golf.  Par 3 courses are great for tightening short games. 

Playing courses that are too long and or hard when you are not ready just put too much strain on weak parts of your game.
		
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Hereeeeeeeeee's Gary,







Have you noticed, each post is starting to get longer.........


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

There is something quite poetic in that :rofl:


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2015)

drdel said:



			Golf clubs are, in general, finding revenue hard to come by. So, they need new members and to hang onto the ones they have.

In general people are living longer and one of the best sources of income  is the older retirees.  These older golfers are likely to find their handicaps rising as their distances decline (and courses get longer).

Why not let handicaps rise? who does it hurt except the handicap snobs, the average golfer is not a bandit and, in reality, they are relatively rare but its a good reliable subject for a moan by the low handicappers who occasional get beaten. In any case if and when any of these 40 handicappers start to win their handicap will drop accordingly.

Storm in a tea cup by those members of committees who sit around looking for something to justify their existence - hence the increasing tortuous and lengthy rules that just continue to grow.

And, we wonder why young people find other sports with a lower monetary and psychological barriers to entry more attractive.
		
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Agree fully with this.  

Clubs need to broaden their horizons.  Also need to broaden the prize table. 

Always annoys me to hear about the competitions being won by handicap golfers shooting the best nett scores, while the lower handicapper coming in with best gross score walks away with nothing. 

I like how my club awards prizes for most comps. Usually award 1st - 4th, Gross, sections 0-9, 10-18, 20+ and a seniors and juniors prize.


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## MadAdey (Jun 24, 2015)

This is ridiculous, IMO any man who is not capable of shooting 100 round a course needs to find somewhere easier to play, or should not be playing in monthly medals. People say there is a problem with slow play, can you imagine a 3-ball in the middle of the field where none of them is barely capable of shooting below 120. 

Another thing, I would not even bother playing a match play comp against someone who I would be giving 37 shots. It's tough enough when you have to give a shot a hole, let alone 2. 

I'm all for encouraging newcomers to the game and far from being a handicap snob. But as it stands 28 is a good starting level to me. It means that you have to able to get the ball round the course in a reasonable manner, with some kind of golfing ability. 40 means that you do not need any real skill and it wouldn't encourage people to improve as you do not need to break the magical 100 mark as a beginner to play to a men's handicap.


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## rosecott (Jun 24, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Another thing, I would not even bother playing a match play comp against someone who I would be giving 37 shots. It's tough enough when you have to give a shot a hole, let alone 2.
		
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In the vast majority of cases, I would bet on a genuine 3-handicap seeing off a genuine 40-handicap in matchplay.


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## Fyldewhite (Jun 24, 2015)

I think it's actually a good idea with one proviso........new players should be allocated a handicap of no more than 28 as at present but should be able to rise to a higher handicap based on results, perhaps with an accelerated process (0.2 per round?). That way, the integrity of the current system would be protected, those who need 36 shots would quite quickly be catered for (providing they get enjoyment and don't give up!) and all clubs may get a few more much needed members.


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			I think it's actually a good idea with one proviso........new players should be allocated a handicap of no more than 28 as at present but should be able to rise to a higher handicap based on results, perhaps with an accelerated process (0.2 per round?). That way, the integrity of the current system would be protected, those who need 36 shots would quite quickly be catered for (providing they get enjoyment and don't give up!) and all clubs may get a few more much needed members.
		
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The exceptional score increase provision would allow for more rapid adjustment without needing to increase to 0.2 back.

This isn't just about new golfers though.  It would help keep some of the more seasoned golfer who's ability is fading from leaving the sport.


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## MadAdey (Jun 24, 2015)

rosecott said:



			In the vast majority of cases, I would bet on a genuine 3-handicap seeing off a genuine 40-handicap in matchplay.
		
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Problem is my round will be consistent with no blow up holes, his wont be. Lad I have been playing with is the best example of this last week. He starts +4, bogey par, I started birdie, bogey par. I give a shot a hole so found myself 1 down playing level par compared to his 5 over. I lost 3&2 and when we looked back I was 2 over through 16 and he was 27 over. Getting a par and loosing to a bogey nett birdie is harsh, but when there is that potential every hole it is going to be difficult. I can make 18 pars, but the person I'm playing needs 17 doubles and 1 single to win, that is going to be tough.


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Problem is my round will be consistent with no blow up holes, his wont be. Lad I have been playing with is the best example of this last week. He starts +4, bogey par, I started birdie, bogey par. I give a shot a hole so found myself 1 down playing level par compared to his 5 over. I lost 3&2 and when we looked back I was 2 over through 16 and he was 27 over. Getting a par and loosing to a bogey nett birdie is harsh, but when there is that potential every hole it is going to be difficult. I can make 18 pars, but the person I'm playing needs 17 doubles and 1 single to win, that is going to be tough.
		
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So all that's needed is for the club to have a have different matchplay competitions to suit a multitude of people with different handicap requirements and you choose avoid entering the free for all ones and stick to the handicap limited ones or better yet scratch.


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2015)

Slow play is already strangling the game.   if for instance, a club managed to get 50 new members who hadn't played golf before and plonked them into the monthly medal with 40 handicaps.  The whole show would grind to a halt.

I just don't see the need for people who have just taken up the game try to be competitive when their game simply isn't ready. There is nothing to stop them marking their own card off whatever handicap they want so they can chart their progress.  They can play with their mates off whatever they want but not having 40 handicap men in the field during competition  isn't snobbish, its common sense.


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## MadAdey (Jun 24, 2015)

palindromicbob said:



			So all that's needed is for the club to have a have different matchplay competitions to suit a multitude of people with different handicap requirements and you choose avoid entering the free for all ones and stick to the handicap limited ones or better yet scratch.
		
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Clubs would have to address it in what way they see it and then allow players to make their own mind up. I feel that allowing the max handicap to be 40 will create a big divide within golf clubs. There are players who turn their nose up at playing with 28 handicappers (me not being one of them). But raising it to 40 would probably see more people staring to have a problem playing with the new level of high handicapper. 

It it would be interesting to see a forum poll on this subject.


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## MadAdey (Jun 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Slow play is already strangling the game.   if for instance, a club managed to get 50 new members who hadn't played golf before and plonked them into the monthly medal with 40 handicaps.  The whole show would grind to a halt.

I just don't see the need for people who have just taken up the game try to be competitive when their game simply isn't ready. There is nothing to stop them marking their own card off whatever handicap they want so they can chart their progress.  They can play with their mates off whatever they want but not having 40 handicap men in the field during competition  isn't snobbish, its common sense.
		
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+1 well said that man


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## palindromicbob (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Slow play is already strangling the game.   if for instance, a club managed to get 50 new members who hadn't played golf before and plonked them into the monthly medal with 40 handicaps.  The whole show would grind to a halt.

I just don't see the need for people who have just taken up the game try to be competitive when their game simply isn't ready. There is nothing to stop them marking their own card off whatever handicap they want so they can chart their progress.  They can play with their mates off whatever they want but not having 40 handicap men in the field during competition  isn't snobbish, its common sense.
		
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Or cater for the lower ability by having more stableford and less focus on medal rounds. Encourage club ambassadors to accompany groups of beginners and help guide them.  Have fun 9 hole comps in the evenings.

 Apply handicap limits to medals and push for increased understanding of clause 19.  

Golf should be about more than sub 4 hours rounds of full on stroke play.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

That is already there. It's called social golf.   You get it most evenings at every club. 

Pretty much anyone can hang around the first tee and get a game with someone in no time at all. 

Plenty of fun golf on offer. " Competition  golf when competent ".  I am getting a polo made with that on if the 40 allowance is brought in. 


Before people's heads explode again tomorrow, I've been there. I've been the 100 plus shooter. Everyone has.  I played golf happily for years without the need or want of a handicap.my game was in decent shape before i even thought about accurately measuring it or pitting my wits against others. I am not being a handicap snob.  This is just the way I see it.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			That is already there. It's called social golf.   You get it most evenings at every club. 

Pretty much anyone can hang around the first tee and get a game with someone in no time at all. 

Plenty of fun golf on offer. " Competition  golf when competent ".  I am getting a polo made with that on if the 40 allowance is brought in. 


Before people's heads explode again tomorrow, I've been there. I've been the 100 plus shooter. Everyone has.  I played golf happily for years without the need or want of a handicap.my game was in decent shape before i even thought about accurately measuring it or pitting my wits against others. I am not being a handicap snob.  This is just the way I see it.
		
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Its dead easy to sort:-

<28 handicap - stableford comps

>28 handicap - stapleford:thup:


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## Slab (Jun 25, 2015)

Off topic I often find that some of the loudest voices for â€˜a shot a holeâ€™ from players I know comes from guys whoâ€™ve reached a decent standard but short of that next goal but instead of figuring out what they need to do to improve they spout the real men/shot a hole nonsense to hide their own failing and do this with no real thought to the purpose of a handicap to arrive at an arbitrary 18, I feel a bit sorry for them struggling to accept that theyâ€™ll never make single figures or whatever and any future golfing glory is instead dependent on nobbling a portion of the field. 

Its the same guys who scream for 3/4 handicap comps, they know that means giving up 2-3 shots & the high guy has to give up 6-7. The low guy knows he's just made a nett 4 shot gain on a chunk of the field eliminating them as any form of competition (he knew he'd have to shoot high 30's for a place anyway so now he just plays the same, gets a 35 pointer instead of 37 and he'll take his chances to stack that up against the few cat 1 or 2 players most days... just another form of banditry really    

On topic my gut says increasing to 40 wonâ€™t work but Iâ€™d like to hear more about the rational behind it, I fear that with a competition gulf as wide as this then divisional comps will become the norm even for weekly comps (even roll-ups) so a 40 handicapper will never play in the same competition against a guy off 5 and that would defeat the purpose of having a handicap system in the first place. This would be followed by divisions within the membership and everyone loses


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## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			That is already there. It's called social golf.   You get it most evenings at every club. 
Pretty much anyone can hang around the first tee and get a game with someone in no time at all.
		
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So you go down to the club for an evening knock on your own. You are invited to join a group of 3 40 handicapped golfers.
Do you 
A) Decline respectfully  
B) Run for the hills
C) Phone the wife up and tell her to leave the landing light on
D) Phone work and tell them you could be late in the morning
E) Get an abacus out of your bag


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2015)

An awful lot of people are assuming that someone with a handicap of 28 is a "genuine" 28'er....
No disrespect to any 28'er but there can be a mile of difference between 27.4 and 28....
Saying that "you can't have a 3 ball of 40 handicappers in the middle of a medal" - who's to say it doesn't already happen? These groups exist...put your 3 cards in scoring +40 on each card and you get a 28 handicap - how does that work?
If you need, on average, 40 shots to be competitive then you should get 40 shots.
Or do we just reduce everyone's handicap accordingly... So all the 10's can play off 7, all the 18's off 13 and all the 5's off 3.....
Handicapping is supposed to level the playing field. As long as they are accurate, why can't they be up to 40 or even more?
 Fragger's FIL plays off something like 47 in his society...he's rubbish, useless and hopeless. But it allows him to enjoy the game and a chance to be competitive.
Isn't that what the handicap system is designed for?
For many, too much emphasis is placed on winning.
More emphasis should be on getting your handicap down.

And slow play isn't, and never has been, the preserve of the high handicap player.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jun 25, 2015)

Better get used to it,  "that's a par for 5 points then !! "


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## shortstuff (Jun 25, 2015)

40HP? OMG this would pave the way for a ridiculous amount of banditry.


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## shortstuff (Jun 25, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			So you go down to the club for an evening knock on your own. You are invited to join a group of 3 40 handicapped golfers.
Do you 
A) Decline respectfully  
B) Run for the hills
C) Phone the wife up and tell her to leave the landing light on
D) Phone work and tell them you could be late in the morning
E) Get an abacus out of your bag



Click to expand...

A + B


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2015)

shortstuff said:



			40HP? OMG this would pave the way for a ridiculous amount of banditry.
		
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But how many actual, real-life Bandits are there..?
We all brandish the word when someone else has a good round but they're not really cushioning their handicap on the whole.
Simple solution - stop prizes.
Maybe have a 2's pot but make the prize of winningnthe competition a handicap cut rather than monetary. Take the emphasis away from winning money and shift it onto winning a handicap cut.
It'll never happen though...


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## phil78 (Jun 25, 2015)

+1 to Imurg's posts above

If someone needs a handicap that high then let them have it and move on, concentrate on your own game instead of worrying what others are doing.


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			[/B]

Clearly you are young enough to not remember when the mens max h/c was 18, bladed clubs and small balls.
		
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Precisely. Then it went to 24 which was absolutely ample. 


My view is that golf has gone mad - the idea of increased upper handicap thresholds seems completely ludicrous to me.  

A shot a hole plus 4 spare for the hardest holes is plenty for an adult male so 22 would seem to be an appropriate limit to me. 28 handicap for seniors and juniors that need more if in the infancy of their development or twilight of their career.  Up to 36 for ladies but again, some form of lower limit for those that are not juniors or seniors.   

I am not being a handicap snob.  I am basing this on my experience of golf, having seen thousands of players of all standards over the past 35 years of playing at dozens of courses.  

My opinion, and I appreciate it is somewhat divisive and incendiary, is that more than 24 over par for a normal bloke who has played for a while is utterly rubbish as a sporting achievement.  It represents very poor standard of play and common sense would suggest that such a round would be peppered with some awful shots, poor decision making, lapses in concentration and an overriding inability to perform at an acceptable level. 

It is the golfing equivalent of playing a frame of snooker and being unable to pot anything but the simplest ball over the pocket.  Or a game of tennis where you are basically incapable of getting a serve in play for half the time.   This equates to being rubbish at your chosen sporting pursuit.  Same for business - you shouldn't get your annual bonus if you aren't very good at your job and miss three quarters of your set goals. 

I appreciate this may be unpalatable to hear but in golf, you are not supposed to be pleased with a nett 68 if your gross score was almost 100.  Shooting that score is pretty useless in terms of the level of prowess required. 

And yet plenty of you seem to think that it is okay for someone at this very low level of skill to be given a big silver trophy, their name on the board and a nice prize from the top shelf for winning Captains Day or similar at your club?  I just cannot agree.  This is rewarding a pretty abject effort and it is not right. 

In golf you are supposed to try and get par on a hole. It isn't a holy grail that is out of reach - it is what you are meant to score! This means being at least good enough to hit the fairway some of the time, get near the green and have a short game that is half decent.  When these things are achieved to a reasonable standard then bogey golf should be possible in fair weather conditions.    If you have been playing golf for a significant length of time and can't manage even the basics of the game then you have to accept that it might not be for you OR you aren't good enough YET to win prizes and matches against others.  Therefore you must improve. 

Apologies if this offends but I am of the view that if you are a poor player then you don't need more shots, you just need to get a bit better than rubbish.  Especially if you want to be the winner of an event.  Total mediocrity should not win prizes.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I would suggest anyone who *cannot score 36 points off the current maximum handicap be that 28 for men, 36 for women would benefit from playing easier shorter courses like municipals*. 

Gary, I take personal offence to that. We are not the lepers of the golfing world that should be shoo'd away & hidden from the world.....


It is so much easier to learn and improve at golf playing this type of golf.  Par 3 courses are great for tightening short games. 

Playing courses that are too long and or hard when you are not ready just put too much strain on weak parts of your game.
		
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I have played the local courses, without achieving the magic 36.....I play off 28.

I have increased over the last 3 months from around 12 points to 21 last Saturday. I have been back playing for about 16 months.

even on some of the shorter courses.

I don't enter medals at the moment;

a)no membership
b) they don't allow handicaps over 18 as far as I have seen so far.

I am going to be a loooooong time before I can even consider entering. The guys I play with vary from 14's ,18's low 20's to me at 28.

They don't want to be playing little pitch & putt courses & I wouldn't either. I need the tougher courses to give me the challenge to improve.

If I was still knocking around a smaller easier course, got to the 36 points a few times then went to a "big boy" course then I would see a drop in scores, and lose heart.

it's like driving (a car).

Learners have to start somewhere. they don't get a separate lane or road network to practice on. They learn all real roads with other real cars.

As I said earlier, I don't want to see an increase in handicaps as 28 is sufficient. It would be nice as I would have more chance in the family stableford days, but that's life.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			My opinion, and I appreciate it is somewhat divisive and incendiary, is that more than 24 over par for a normal bloke *who has played for a while* is utterly rubbish as a sporting achievement. .
		
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Define a while......

what 6 months? a year? 2 years?


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## YorkshireStu (Jun 25, 2015)

I think that a change to the handicap system to a maximum of 40 would be a change for the better.

Golf is already associated with a male dominated image, stuffy clubs and a high cost to play. Making newbies feel less like a failure when they're starting out can only encourage the 20 and 30-somethings who never have, to pick up a club for the first time. A true handicap system should reflect the true range of levels, if somebody genuinely is a 38 handicapper, then why not even up the odds? Otherwise everybody may as well just play off scratch.


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## jp5 (Jun 25, 2015)

There should be no upper limit to handicap, just split comps into divisions. 0-24, 25+ etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Precisely. Then it went to 24 which was absolutely ample. 


My view is that golf has gone mad - the idea of increased upper handicap thresholds seems completely ludicrous to me.  

A shot a hole plus 4 spare for the hardest holes is plenty for an adult male so 22 would seem to be an appropriate limit to me. 28 handicap for seniors and juniors that need more if in the infancy of their development or twilight of their career.  Up to 36 for ladies but again, some form of lower limit for those that are not juniors or seniors.   

I am not being a handicap snob.  I am basing this on my experience of golf, having seen thousands of players of all standards over the past 35 years of playing at dozens of courses.  

My opinion, and I appreciate it is somewhat divisive and incendiary, is that more than 24 over par for a normal bloke who has played for a while is utterly rubbish as a sporting achievement.  It represents very poor standard of play and common sense would suggest that such a round would be peppered with some awful shots, poor decision making, lapses in concentration and an overriding inability to perform at an acceptable level. 

It is the golfing equivalent of playing a frame of snooker and being unable to pot anything but the simplest ball over the pocket.  Or a game of tennis where you are basically incapable of getting a serve in play for half the time.   This equates to being rubbish at your chosen sporting pursuit.  Same for business - you shouldn't get your annual bonus if you aren't very good at your job and miss three quarters of your set goals. 

I appreciate this may be unpalatable to hear but in golf, you are not supposed to be pleased with a nett 68 if your gross score was almost 100.  Shooting that score is pretty useless in terms of the level of prowess required. 

And yet plenty of you seem to think that it is okay for someone at this very low level of skill to be given a big silver trophy, their name on the board and a nice prize from the top shelf for winning Captains Day or similar at your club?  I just cannot agree.  This is rewarding a pretty abject effort and it is not right. 

In golf you are supposed to try and get par on a hole. It isn't a holy grail that is out of reach - it is what you are meant to score! This means being at least good enough to hit the fairway some of the time, get near the green and have a short game that is half decent.  When these things are achieved to a reasonable standard then bogey golf should be possible in fair weather conditions.    If you have been playing golf for a significant length of time and can't manage even the basics of the game then you have to accept that it might not be for you OR you aren't good enough YET to win prizes and matches against others.  Therefore you must improve. 

Apologies if this offends but I am of the view that if you are a poor player then you don't need more shots, you just need to get a bit better than rubbish.  Especially if you want to be the winner of an event.  Total mediocrity should not win prizes.
		
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The majority of what you've said I find very agreeable and sensible, the only point/question i would add is. Irrelevant to what the handicap is raised to, surely Clubs have the authority to put handicap limits on competitions, just like clubs do for some opens now. That way all who enter a comp know exactly what they're up against, if they're concerned, don't enter, surely it can't be that hard?


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			Define a while......

what 6 months? a year? 2 years?
		
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I suppose it depends on the individual.  Some people are better than others at learning.  

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right.  2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.   

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing.  You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22.  If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			The majority of what you've said I find very agreeable and sensible, the only point/question i would add is. Irrelevant to what the handicap is raised to, surely Clubs have the authority to put handicap limits on competitions, just like clubs do for some opens now. That way all who enter a comp know exactly what they're up against, if they're concerned, don't enter, surely it can't be that hard?
		
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I agree.  I think all clubs should be adopting this approach.


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## DCB (Jun 25, 2015)

I've read through this a couple of times just to make sure I was reading what I was reading. Everyone has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with helping the newer, less capable golfer of being able to enjoy the game. If a club has a properly formed Handicap Committee then there shouldn't be any issues if they do their job properly, using whatever system we are using to keep handicaps reflective of a players ability.

All this max 18, no 2 strokes per hole etc is just handicap snobbery IMO. Get over it, it's just a game we play for enjoyment. If it helps the less capable golfee play the game and enjoy it  so be it.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I suppose it depends on the individual.  Some people are better than others at learning.  

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right.  2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.   

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing.  You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22.  If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.
		
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And for those that can't get out weekly? Either through family commitments? Financial implications? Are you saying that they shouldn't be allowed to play comps etc with a higher handicap? Just because they don't have the time to play as frequently?

If so then I would say these are the types mentality that prevent more people taking up the game.

I get out once a fortnight if i'm lucky & do practice a little in the garden/at the range. But I know that I won't be coming down any time soon to what seems to be the "desired" handicap.

Maybe I will just remove myself from this thread before I say something I regret.....


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

DCB said:



			I've read through this a couple of times just to make sure I was reading what I was reading. Everyone has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with helping the newer, less capable golfer of being able to enjoy the game. If a club has a properly formed Handicap Committee then there shouldn't be any issues if they do their job properly, using whatever system we are using to keep handicaps reflective of a players ability.

*All this max 18, no 2 strokes per hole etc is just handicap snobbery IMO*. Get over it, it's just a game we play for enjoyment. If it helps the less capable golfee play the game and enjoy it  so be it.
		
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my point in my last post....


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## Smiffy (Jun 25, 2015)

I think that a good indicator is to stick somebody on a fairly straightforward par 3 of about 150 yards.
Ask them what club they would hit, and if they say anything bigger than a 6 iron, decline their membership application.
That would sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			And for those that can't get out weekly? Either through family commitments? Financial implications? Are you saying that they shouldn't be allowed to play comps etc with a higher handicap? Just because they don't have the time to play as frequently?

If so then I would say these are the types mentality that prevent more people taking up the game.

I get out once a fortnight if i'm lucky & do practice a little in the garden/at the range. But I know that I won't be coming down any time soon to what seems to be the "desired" handicap.

Maybe I will just remove myself from this thread before I say something I regret.....
		
Click to expand...

I am not saying any of those things, no. 

What stops you from doing 10 minutes of chipping practice in the garden every night?  What stops you from 10 minutes of putting practice on the lounge carpet every night?   Eastenders?   If you did this, you would be a much, much better short game player in a relatively short space of time.   

All this prevention to taking up the game stuff is a red herring in my view.  I haven't yet seen the slogan promoting golf that reads "Play golf - the sport you can be crap at and still beat everyone else! Cher-Ching!"


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I would suggest anyone who cannot score 36 points off the current maximum handicap be that 28 for men, 36 for women would benefit from playing easier shorter courses like municipals. 

It is so much easier to learn and improve at golf playing this type of golf.  Par 3 courses are great for tightening short games. 

Playing courses that are too long and or hard when you are not ready just put too much strain on weak parts of your game.
		
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Are some saying that women should be allowed a higher handicap because they can't hit it as far or may be of less of a standard than men?

Maybe if they can't they should also get their own courses? Going by the above if newbies shouldn't be allowed to play on "normal" courses because they need 28 shots, women shouldn't be allowed on a "normal" course for needing up to 36?

Seriously???

Come on!!

Golf is meant to be trying to change it's image of being a stuffy old boys club sport......this kind of thinking is what keeps people thinking of golf like that!!

A course is there to be played. Men, women, children, newbies, youngsters, middle aged experienced players. Giving people a little extra help to be competitive can only be a good thing!!

More people on courses, playing in comps, increasing club revenue...how is that bad???????


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I am not saying any of those things, no. 

What stops you from doing 10 minutes of chipping practice in the garden every night?  What stops you from 10 minutes of putting practice on the lounge carpet every night?   Eastenders?   If you did this, you would be a much, much better short game player in a relatively short space of time.   

All this prevention to taking up the game stuff is a red herring in my view.  I haven't yet seen the slogan promoting golf that reads "Play golf - the sport you can be crap at and still beat everyone else! Cher-Ching!"
		
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Working & not getting in till 6.30 or 7 most nights. Sometimes later if the trains are up the spout. Then when I get in it's dinner & trying to get some studying & assignments written for work qualifications. 

I have an elderly (nearly 90 year old) nan who needs some extra care most nights as my mum works various hours & has to travel for work a bit.

I have a wife who works as a nurse & nearly 13 year old daughter that needs extra help with her homework sometimes.

And yes, after being out from 6.30am till 7pm I am a little tired & after studying etc till 9pm, getting bits ready for the next day, I do like to sit & watch a bit of tv to wind down.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			I have played the local courses, without achieving the magic 36.....I play off 28.

I have increased over the last 3 months from around 12 points to 21 last Saturday. I have been back playing for about 16 months.

even on some of the shorter courses.

I don't enter medals at the moment;

a)no membership
b) they don't allow handicaps over 18 as far as I have seen so far.

I am going to be a loooooong time before I can even consider entering. The guys I play with vary from 14's ,18's low 20's to me at 28.

They don't want to be playing little pitch & putt courses & I wouldn't either. I need the tougher courses to give me the challenge to improve.

If I was still knocking around a smaller easier course, got to the 36 points a few times then went to a "big boy" course then I would see a drop in scores, and lose heart.

it's like driving (a car).

Learners have to start somewhere. they don't get a separate lane or road network to practice on. They learn all real roads with other real cars.

As I said earlier, I don't want to see an increase in handicaps as 28 is sufficient. It would be nice as I would have more chance in the family stableford days, but that's life.
		
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dont take offence.   the guys you play with dont want you playing pitch and putt courses, or they dont want to have to go and play these courses with you.   i am telling you through experience that you will improve your iron play and therefore you ball striking by playing more on par 3 courses. less time spent looking for balls. less time between shots.  in the same time it takes for 9 holes of a long course you can get around the par 3 twice meaning you have the chance to practice chipping and putting twice as many times.  

you claim to not have much time then use it wisely if you want to improve.

btw learners tend to start driving well away from normal traffic if they have any sense.  an empty car park, a quiet back road or industrial park is ideal to learn the basics before attempting to drive on normal roads never mind busy junctions.


i have introduced many friends to golf via the range then the par 3, the slightly longer muni course before some moved onto full sized course. they have enjoyed the progression.  the last two started with handicaps of 18 and 26.  the 26 handicap has only entered one comp and has decided himself that he wants to really improve this year before giving the comps a real go. he is currently out most evenings himself, calling me the next day to tell me how it went.

you also claim you will lose heart when you move to the big course and see a drop in scores.  i don't really think this is the case for any rational thinker.  surely this is to be expected and part of the challenge of golf that you already seem to be embracing as you have moved from 12 points to 21.

enjoy the ride of golf.  no one wants you to stop playing.   its takes time to be ok at this game.  that is the addictive challenge.  people will not hang around the game longer because you give them 40 shots.  they still have the same ability. the goals posts have been moved. 

no one is stopping people chart their progress off any handicap, i just dont feel its worth handing out medals until they reach at least a 28 handicap.  ive mellowed since the last time this debate arose.  it was 18 but i suppose 28 is fine as it is.   40 is taking the piss as a measure of good golf.

as i said before, happy to remove all prizes.  handshakes and a slap on the back would do just fine for any winner in the amateur game.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jun 25, 2015)

Lets make dart boards three times their current size, snooker pockets like dustbins and while we are about it have a second bigger unguarded goal in footy some them that can't shoot straight have a chance to score.

Golf is never going to be easy, you need to put the effort in, not be rewarded for being poor as has been said quite rightly in recent posts.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Gary,

I think this is going to be an agree to disagree.

I enjoy playing the tougher longer courses. I like seeing my points increase little by little. I know that I could improve faster if I had the time but I don't.

As I said in a much earlier post, I would *like* a higher handicap to give me a chance of seeing 36 points on my card & get into a few competitions. I am not saying I want to play against a scratch but there are no comps around for 28's that I have seen & at the moment I wouldn't be able to get to 36 points of 28.

*HOWEVER,* I see 28 as being plenty. Yes ok, I don't see 36 points but so what? I am there to enjoy the game, enjoy the break from my little hectic life. I'm 32 & hopefully will have a long golfing career ahead of me & I wish I had taken it up earlier in life. 

I don't want to see handicaps increase to 36 or 40 or whatever. But for people on here to say "1 shot a hole is more than enough" is very unfair & disrespectful to those that need a little more help starting out. It is just a little small minded in my opinion. Everyone starts somewhere.

I'm sure that if those that think 18 is sufficient went back to their 1st 12-24 months or so of playing they would remember how much they enjoyed playing but also how bad some of their cards may have been!!


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## MadAdey (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			Working & not getting in till 6.30 or 7 most nights. Sometimes later if the trains are up the spout. Then when I get in it's dinner & trying to get some studying & assignments written for work qualifications. 

I have an elderly (nearly 90 year old) nan who needs some extra care most nights as my mum works various hours & has to travel for work a bit.

I have a wife who works as a nurse & nearly 13 year old daughter that needs extra help with her homework sometimes.

And yes, after being out from 6.30am till 7pm I am a little tired & after studying etc till 9pm, getting bits ready for the next day, I do like to sit & watch a bit of tv to wind down.
		
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I feel for you, I really do and golf is a game for all to enjoy and it can be tough on some. Golf is a game that absorbs a lot of spare time and when you don't have it, well you will always struggle to get any better. Thing is if this is the case then maybe it needs putting on the back burner for a couple of years until you can play more often.

My dad loved playing golf and had a low handicap, but he took a new job and it absorbed a lot of his time. Couple that with young kids and he gave up playing as he just couldn't play as often as he wanted. One day about 5 years later a letter arrived from the golf club that he had put his name on a waiting list for, inviting him to join. My mum covinced him to take it as he had more spare time, my older brother had moved out, I was now 13 and my other brother 11, so we didn't need looking after round the clock. I'm glad he did though as I soon started joining him to play.

I'm not saying that youI have got to stop playing because you do not have the time to get better. I'm just saying that maybe at the present time golf isn't something that you can fit into your life.

BTW Drew, I'm not a golf snob and if I still lived in the UK and you where up my way I would be more than happy to play 18 and have a couple of beers afterwards.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I suppose it depends on the individual.  Some people are better than others at learning.  

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right.  2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.   

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing.  You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22.  If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.
		
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I don't really disagree with what you're saying, and I tend to agree that with effort and application people should be able to get to a handicap of 22.

However, people play the game for lots of different reasons, many just like to get out and about and enjoy the social aspect with being overly concerned about the score element. With that in mind, I would prefer to allow higher handicaps but to cap them for club competitions (or certain comps at least). I wouldn't want a system that pushed people towards being society members rather than club members, which I think reducing the maximum handicap might do.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Madadey,

I have the time to play once a fortnight & occasionally a little bit of practice time. What I was getting at is, just because I can't get out once or twice a week & spend hours practicing, why should I be penalised? Why should the handicap be capped at 18 for example?

A lack of time means I will progress much slower than someone with the time to practice. But why should I miss out on a hobby because I am not able to practice loads & get my scores down?

I just think some people on here think they are/should be pro's and anyone that can't play as well as them shouldn't be allowed on the course.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don't really disagree with what you're saying, and I tend to agree that with effort and application people should be able to get to a handicap of 22.

However, people play the game for lots of different reasons, many just like to get out and about and enjoy the social aspect with being overly concerned about the score element. With that in mind, I would prefer to allow higher handicaps but to cap them for club competitions (or certain comps at least). I wouldn't want a system that pushed people towards being society members rather than club members, which I think reducing the maximum handicap might do.
		
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This! +1


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2015)

I played on Sunday with one of the clubs perrenial moaners, pace of play, organisation of the comp etc etc, you can be sure that he and his mates are going to be apoplectic if this is introduced. There are members at every club who want to turn their club, and golf, back to 1963. The fact is that the game is struggling to recruit players, young and old, and member clubs need to find ways to encourage membership. If someone is truly, say, a 36 handicap golfer he is likely to be given 28 to start and allowed to enter comps. I see nothing wrong with allowing him to play off 36 and making him competitive. He won't take any more time on the course than he would have anyway and I think most clubs would split competitions according to some sort of handicap banding. 

I think recruiting new golfers is paramount, but clubs have to understand that just getting someone to join, taking their money and pointing them in the direction of the 1st tee is no way to integrate people for the long term and maybe, just maybe, increasing handicaps will help new golfers to feel easier about the hardest game that there is.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 25, 2015)

chrisd said:



			I played on Sunday with one of the clubs perrenial moaners, pace of play, organisation of the comp etc etc, you can be sure that he and his mates are going to be apoplectic if this is introduced. There are members at every club who want to turn their club, and golf, back to 1963. The fact is that the game is struggling to recruit players, young and old, and member clubs need to find ways to encourage membership. If someone is truly, say, a 36 handicap golfer he is likely to be given 28 to start and allowed to enter comps. I see nothing wrong with allowing him to play off 36 and making him competitive. He won't take any more time on the course than he would have anyway and I think most clubs would split competitions according to some sort of handicap banding. 

I think recruiting new golfers is paramount, but clubs have to understand that just getting someone to join, taking their money and pointing them in the direction of the 1st tee is no way to integrate people for the long term and maybe, just maybe, increasing handicaps will help new golfers to feel easier about the hardest game that there is.
		
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Boom! Nailed it Chris. 

Why make golf club membership harder to justify than it already is, particularly for people in that age group where they have a family and money and time is tight?


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Chrisd has nailed it!

Well said!


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## MadAdey (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			Madadey,

I have the time to play once a fortnight & occasionally a little bit of practice time. What I was getting at is, just because I can't get out once or twice a week & spend hours practicing, why should I be penalised? Why should the handicap be capped at 18 for example?

A lack of time means I will progress much slower than someone with the time to practice. But why should I miss out on a hobby because I am not able to practice loads & get my scores down?

*I just think some people on here think they are/should be pro's and anyone that can't play as well as them shouldn't be allowed on the course.*

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And those people need to get a grip on reality. Either that or made to stand 10 yards infront of me as I release a ball from my driver at 170MPH. 

I don't believe for one minute that the handicap should be capped at 18. 28 is a good number IMO, I have always thought that random number was chose as it means you need to shoot 100 or better at most courses to play to it. 100 to me being the first milestone to break in golf, followed by trying to get to an 18 handicap. 

Hopefully as as time goes by and your family gets older you will get time to go out more and get better at something  you obviously enjoy.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Boom! Nailed it Chris. 

Why make golf club membership harder to justify than it already is, particularly for people in that age group where they have a family and money and time is tight?
		
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I also want to see clubs work hard on the 50 year old who has free time, less mortgage etc etc. He may find golf a daunting prospect and we should offer some free tuition for his fees, proper integration into swindles and comps and the beauty is that, unlike younger players, he doesn't require subsidised fees.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			And those people need to get a grip on reality. Either that or made to stand 10 yards infront of me as I release a ball from my driver at 170MPH. 

I don't believe for one minute that the handicap should be capped at 18. 28 is a good number IMO, I have always thought that random number was chose as it means you need to shoot 100 or better at most courses to play to it. *100 to me being the first milestone to break in golf*, followed by trying to get to an 18 handicap. 

Hopefully as as time goes by and your family gets older you will get time to go out more and get better at something  you obviously enjoy.
		
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That's the milestone I am aiming for by the end of 2015.  Come October I will be done with the exams etc too so I can focus that time over the winter on more practice time ready for 2016!


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

i have been skiing this year for the second time in my life. the first year i spent threes days basically being a danger to people on the slopes. nearly killing myself in a race and generally mucking about.  i could barely stop, only turn in one direction. in essence i could not really ski.  i was a high handicap 40+ skier. 

as soon as ski school was over, bravado came into play and the shout came up that we were heading for the summit.  being a 'have a go' type of character i decided why not, i will give it a go. to the black run it is.  how hard can it be?  when we got to the top viability was down to about 5 feet. once we tried to go down the slope i soon realized i could not even stand up.  it was torture.  it took myself and another noob mate absolutely forever to get our feet back on solid ground. we spent the whole time sliding down on our belly's just to make it.  swimming down a mountain will soon make you swallow your ego.  during this time our more expericanced mates where having to wait and wait and wait.  basically i was wasting their time as well as my own.  all i was doing was stunting my own development as a skier.

after that i never ventured to the black runs again for the rest of the holiday. i took a step back and went on green and red runs.  the red runs where still proving difficult but i persevered anyway. i thanked my friends as i knew they were constantly waiting for me. 

on to our trip this year.  armed this time with a helmet, at least i was a bit safer i deiced i was going to try and get the hang of this turning malarkey.  i set off to the gentle green slopes and then moved to red as my confidence grew.  for the first three days i was a mess as usual. constantly falling and having to have my mates wait for me.  the cry rang out, "to the black run".  i instantly knew for my enjoyment and theirs that this was my time to exit stage left.  i told them i will work on the red slopes while they tackle pic blanc. sod that for a meeting.

anyhow, they were gone for ages tackling this monster while i worked on my technique. sure enough, something clicked and i was finally under control. i could turn left right and stop at will.  when they next spotted me they were amazed at how i was getting on compared to the previous.

the moral of the story is that for my enjoyment and my buddies it was prudent that i knew my limits.  used my time as best i could. had i followed them to pic blanc i would have wasted a lot of my own time and theirs plus i wouldn't be as good a skier as i now am.

sking isn't anywhere near as difficult to pick up as golf but the same principles of learning apply.


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## Crazyface (Jun 25, 2015)

I'm off on  a golf trip with two mates this weekend and one of them hardly plays at all, the other not much.  I'm off 14, the not much player is usually off 24 but I'm going to give him 26 this time and hardly ever? 36. He can play to this, when his putter is on fire, but if it's not, then no chance. If one wins a day you loose 2 shots no matter what scores we come in with, if H/C is beaten then we add more. All in an attempt to have all 3 of us, after two games, on a H/C thats sort of level for all three of us to play for the main prize of the Norbrek Cup. A 10cm high diddy cup. It's highly prized between us three !!!!!!!!! 
Thing is, the 36 capper just enjoys the golf and the cameradery of the trip and giving him 36 gives him a chance. (He has won it once). I don't see the problem with giving people a high H/C, it's there to give them  a chance. I also disagree with 3/4 h/c comps. As this benefits lower cappers. Oh yes it does!!!! Do the maths !!!!


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## Crazyface (Jun 25, 2015)

"sking isn't anywhere near as difficult to pick up as golf but the same principles of learning apply."

I'll wager is piggin' is !!!!!!!! And damn scarey as well, after reading your post !!!!!


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Gary, I see what you are saying, but as we always play as 3 or 4s, I don't end up holding them up. I will speed on ahead if I have lost a ball to the long stuff rather than a slower pace with them & having a chat. That way I have either found it or dropped another & ready to play by the time the others have played theirs.

They play their game of long perfect drives, I play mine of not so long & trying to keep it straight. I can play every shot I need to on the course from tee to green, out of bunkers etc. I just can't stitch them into a single round yet. It will come.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

its really not that difficult to get the basics right.  i just spent an hour at ski school and thought i was ready for the big pool. 

i should have been going back to ski school each morning and quite possibly sticking to the green slopes until i could at least turn in both directions.  

instead i let my ego get the better of me and tried runs that where well beyond my experience level.   

as soon as i worked on my technique at a level more suited to me, my skill grew so much faster than it did trying to keep up with people far more advanced.


lesson for you all folks.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			Gary, I see what you are saying, but as we always play as 3 or 4s, I don't end up holding them up. I will speed on ahead if I have lost a ball to the long stuff rather than a slower pace with them & having a chat. That way I have either found it or dropped another & ready to play by the time the others have played theirs.

They play their game of long perfect drives, I play mine of not so long & trying to keep it straight. I can play every shot I need to on the course from tee to green, out of bunkers etc. I just can't stitch them into a single round yet. It will come.
		
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grand that is pace of play sorted but you say you are short of time and cannot improve.  i am telling you that your game will come on leaps and bounds by playing shorter courses.  you hit more shots in less time.

plenty of my mates back home still play the par 3 course regularly if they are looking to work on something or if its just to get out for an hour.


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## drew83 (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			grand that is pace of play sorted but you say you are short of time and *cannot improve*.  i am telling you that your game will come on leaps and bounds by playing shorter courses.  you hit more shots in less time.

 plenty of my mates back home still play the par 3 course regularly if they are looking to work on something or if its just to get out for an hour.
		
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No, I said that due to a lack of time I will improve slower, not I won't improve.

I have reduced my strokes & increased my points from 144 & 9 to 120 & 21 since February. That may have come down a lot quicker had I played more/practiced more. And, again, I take you point that certain shots can be practiced more on a shorter course, but when I get to a longer course, those un-practiced longer shots will still be just the same. So in my eyes, playing on a "normal" course will benefit me more.

The point I was trying to make is, as ChrisD said. Very good & to the point post was that!

Just because I am not the standard of the wanna be pro's why should I be shunned?


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

drew83 said:



			I take you point that certain shots can be practiced more on a shorter course, but when I get to a longer course, those un-practiced longer shots will still be just the same. So in my eyes, playing on a "normal" course will benefit me more.
		
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there is noting stopping you from practicing long shots at the range / muni courses.     

being on a normal full size course is not the quickest way to improve.  you could learn to cream a 5 iron and get a very tidy short game going playing par 3 course.   without even touching a long club you can get around a big course playing bogey golf.   

two five irons and chip and two putts.    

this could give you a starting handicap of 18.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			its really not that difficult to get the basics right.  i just spent an hour at ski school and thought i was ready for the big pool. 

i should have been going back to ski school each morning and quite possibly sticking to the green slopes until i could at least turn in both directions.  

instead i let my ego get the better of me and tried runs that where well beyond my experience level.   

as soon as i worked on my technique at a level more suited to me, my skill grew so much faster than it did trying to keep up with people far more advanced.


lesson for you all folks.  

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I can show you how to parallel turn if you like Gaz, but dont ask me to show you how to draw a ball.:thup:


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

you will hit driver maybe 13/14 times at most of a normal course.   you will at the minute 3 or 4 times as many iron shots.  

to be efficient with your time, shorter, even par 3s are best for your development.  this is a fact.      you can choose to ignore it if you want. 

good luck in you endeavors and more importantly your studies. :cheers:


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			I can show you how to parallel turn if you like Gaz, but dont ask me to show you how to draw a ball.:thup:
		
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lets compare notes :rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			lets compare notes :rofl:
		
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Ok, I'll give you Â£1 for every 2 Euros you have.....


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

chrisd said:



			The fact is that the game is struggling to recruit players, young and old, and member clubs need to find ways to encourage membership.
		
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I think it is a massive leap to connect golf participation and higher handicap limits. 

Additionally, good golf clubs are not struggling for members.  The one I plan to join in Yorkshire has a waiting list. As does the one I would join if I stayed in Sussex.   I think there is a critical mass of the number of viable golf clubs in the UK and it is dictated by market forces.  Golf has been around for hundreds of years and will be for hundreds more.  Clubs will come and go.

My question to anyone saying that it is paramount that clubs recruit and that golf must be made to be a much more attractive proposition is very simple - why?   There are only a finite number of current and potential future golfers and they will find the clubs that they want to join and the clubs with a profitable amount of people will thrive. Others won't.  The golfing population and the market will determine the number of clubs that is optimum.  

There will be booms and slumps of course but golf isn't about to disappear!  Irrespective of how many shots people are given.


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## KhalJimbo (Jun 25, 2015)

As a newcomer to Golf and someone who is in the process of putting their 3 cards in (1st 127 (really bad day for me) 2nd was 100) I am in favour of keeping the upper limit at 28.

It actually gives you something to work towards when starting out. If I knew that I could go out shoot well over 100 constantly and still get a genuine handicap then  there is no carrot at the end of the stick to entice you to get better. The whole reason I've put a lot of effort in is to get a genuine 28 handicap. My last couple or rounds were 100 and 102. So for me the 100 is a genuine 28 handicap, which I am proud to have due to actually having to work towards it. The next card I hand in I am hoping to have in the 90's as I feel I just need to work on my putting and I'll be in the 90's.

The whole thing I like about golf is having, measurable targets to work towards. The first target being to shoot 100 and getting a valid handicap, that takes practice. I don't see a handicap of 40 as something to work towards. 

I agree with others something there is a difference between a genuine 28 and someone who handed in 3 cards all 40 over and getting given a 28 handicap, but in making 28 genuine there is work and practice that is needed. That's not there with a 40 handicap.


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## phil78 (Jun 25, 2015)

I really don't understand this idea that having a 36 / 40 handicap means people won't try to improve.
Pretty much everyone on this board has an aim to improve their handicap , be it to single figures, cat1 , 18.  
Similarly if you are reviewing your golf over a season , I'd have always thought the main measure would be the change in your handicap not "I won 2 Sunday Stablefords and Â£25 of vouchers for the pro shop" 
Maybe boards comps are slightly different but if it is so important these are won by a low handicap golfer make them scratch competitions, why allow someone with 10 shots, for example, to win them when other players may have scored a lower gross.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2015)

I genuinely don't care if they raise the handicap limit just so long as those coming into the game are looked after properly. There's no reason why a 40 handicapper can't be scratch h'cap for etiquette in a very short space of time, including pace of play. Bring 'em in. I'd happily have one in my 4 ball - at least I stand a chance of beating them gross...

We need more golfers, and we need to be more inclusive to achieve that. But that shouldn't mean just open the door and let them flounder. Bring 'em in but educate them.

We've all been new starters once, hitting well over the hundred. It was the older, established golfers that educated us. There's less time for people to do that now, with life's stresses etc, but why not formalise that education as they've done in countries like Germany. To join a club you also had to have a course of lessons, inc rules and etiquette, before you were given a handicap and allowed in comps.

Do it, but do it properly.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I think it is a massive leap to connect golf participation and higher handicap limits. 

Additionally, good golf clubs are not struggling for members.  The one I plan to join in Yorkshire has a waiting list. As does the one I would join if I stayed in Sussex.   I think there is a critical mass of the number of viable golf clubs in the UK and it is dictated by market forces.  Golf has been around for hundreds of years and will be for hundreds more.  Clubs will come and go.

My question to anyone saying that it is paramount that clubs recruit and that golf must be made to be a much more attractive proposition is very simple - why?   There are only a finite number of current and potential future golfers and they will find the clubs that they want to join and the clubs with a profitable amount of people will thrive. Others won't.  The golfing population and the market will determine the number of clubs that is optimum.  

There will be booms and slumps of course but golf isn't about to disappear!  Irrespective of how many shots people are given.
		
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But a lot of clubs are struggling to survive and I think that's why the suggested changes are afoot - to get more participants = budgeted revenue. Im cynical enough to believe that if it wasn't for that reason most clubs and the R&A wouldn't be interested in changing things


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2015)

chrisd said:



			But a lot of clubs are struggling to survive and I think that's why the suggested changes are afoot - to get more participants = budgeted revenue. Im cynical enough to believe that if it wasn't for that reason most clubs and the R&A wouldn't be interested in changing things
		
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I am inclined to agree with you Chris.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

KhalJimbo said:



			As a newcomer to Golf and someone who is in the process of putting their 3 cards in (1st 127 (really bad day for me) 2nd was 100) I am in favour of keeping the upper limit at 28.

It actually gives you something to work towards when starting out. If I knew that I could go out shoot well over 100 constantly and still get a genuine handicap then  there is no carrot at the end of the stick to entice you to get better. The whole reason I've put a lot of effort in is to get a genuine 28 handicap. My last couple or rounds were 100 and 102. So for me the 100 is a genuine 28 handicap, which I am proud to have due to actually having to work towards it. The next card I hand in I am hoping to have in the 90's as I feel I just need to work on my putting and I'll be in the 90's.

The whole thing I like about golf is having, measurable targets to work towards. The first target being to shoot 100 and getting a valid handicap, that takes practice. I don't see a handicap of 40 as something to work towards. 

I agree with others something there is a difference between a genuine 28 and someone who handed in 3 cards all 40 over and getting given a 28 handicap, but in making 28 genuine there is work and practice that is needed. That's not there with a 40 handicap.
		
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Why would've your approach to the game changed if you had had 2 really bad days and hit another 127 instead of the 100, your handicap would still be 28, but in reality could've been 36-40 or whatever.
I think the upper handicap No is a red herring, If the guy of 36 wins a Comp, he's cut and hopefully continues to improve, it comes across as if all players with a Handicap of 19 or above are hacking it around but on hitting 18 you're suddenly a Golfer, isn't the Average handicap in the UK 14/15.

As stated before, just change the Comp rules and at least when playing with a 28 Handicapper in the future he'll/she'll be genuine, I've met more bandits in the the 11-18 range than 19-28.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 25, 2015)

chrisd said:



			But a lot of clubs are struggling to survive and I think that's why the suggested changes are afoot - to get more participants = budgeted revenue. Im cynical enough to believe that if it wasn't for that reason most clubs and the R&A wouldn't be interested in changing things
		
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The primary driver is the rationalisation  of the USGA  EGA and CONGU systems in 2020.
It would clearly be inappropriate to expect the other systems to introduce a lower limit and have to handle the consequences of that with their existing (paying) members.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I genuinely don't care if they raise the handicap limit just so long as those coming into the game are looked after properly. There's no reason why a 40 handicapper can't be scratch h'cap for etiquette in a very short space of time, including pace of play. Bring 'em in. I'd happily have one in my 4 ball - at least I stand a chance of beating them gross...

We need more golfers, and we need to be more inclusive to achieve that. But that shouldn't mean just open the door and let them flounder. Bring 'em in but educate them.

We've all been new starters once, hitting well over the hundred. It was the older, established golfers that educated us. There's less time for people to do that now, with life's stresses etc, but why not formalise that education as they've done in countries like Germany. To join a club you also had to have a course of lessons, inc rules and etiquette, before you were given a handicap and allowed in comps.

Do it, but do it properly.
		
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Now that's nailing it.:thup::thup::thup:

Maybe give them some sort of PPE as well, like green tabards and a nice instructional video.


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## KhalJimbo (Jun 25, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Why would've your approach to the game changed if you had had 2 really bad days and hit another 127 instead of the 100, your handicap would still be 28, but in reality could've been 36-40 or whatever.
		
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Because the 127 was a real off day which I haven't shot scores like that since I first started playing. The reason 28 rather than 40 makes a difference to me, is to get to an actual meaningful handicap of a genuine 28 I have to put work and effort in to get to something like that as a first handicap. Where as there is no real work needed to gain a genuine 40 handicap to start.


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## dankiz (Jun 25, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Male golfers should not receive more than one shot per hole !!! :thup:
		
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Had the same conversation at a society day yesterday! Totally agree


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

KhalJimbo said:



			Because the 127 was a real off day which I haven't shot scores like that since I first started playing. The reason 28 rather than 40 makes a difference to me, is to get to an actual meaningful handicap of a genuine 28 I have to put work and effort in to get to something like that as a first handicap. Where as there is no real work needed to gain a genuine 40 handicap to start.
		
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Not aimed at you personally, what I'm saying is, you're a genuine 28, in the future, someone could work just as hard as you and be a genuine 40, it does not lessen your or their effort, currently if someone works hard and puts three cards in and they are over 28, they still get 28, in the future if they are over 40, they will still get 40, 
Like previously stated imo the entry number is a red herring as we all strive to reduce our handicaps and enjoy golf and to appease the scaremongering I believe comps should be in Divisions,


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			i have been skiing this year for the second time in my life. the first year i spent threes days basically being a danger to people on the slopes. nearly killing myself in a race and generally mucking about.  i could barely stop, only turn in one direction. in essence i could not really ski.  i was a high handicap 40+ skier. 

as soon as ski school was over, bravado came into play and the shout came up that we were heading for the summit.  being a 'have a go' type of character i decided why not, i will give it a go. to the black run it is.  how hard can it be?  when we got to the top viability was down to about 5 feet. once we tried to go down the slope i soon realized i could not even stand up.  it was torture.  it took myself and another noob mate absolutely forever to get our feet back on solid ground. we spent the whole time sliding down on our belly's just to make it.  swimming down a mountain will soon make you swallow your ego.  during this time our more expericanced mates where having to wait and wait and wait.  basically i was wasting their time as well as my own.  all i was doing was stunting my own development as a skier.

after that i never ventured to the black runs again for the rest of the holiday. i took a step back and went on green and red runs.  the red runs where still proving difficult but i persevered anyway. i thanked my friends as i knew they were constantly waiting for me. 

on to our trip this year.  armed this time with a helmet, at least i was a bit safer i deiced i was going to try and get the hang of this turning malarkey.  i set off to the gentle green slopes and then moved to red as my confidence grew.  for the first three days i was a mess as usual. constantly falling and having to have my mates wait for me.  the cry rang out, "to the black run".  i instantly knew for my enjoyment and theirs that this was my time to exit stage left.  i told them i will work on the red slopes while they tackle pic blanc. sod that for a meeting.

anyhow, they were gone for ages tackling this monster while i worked on my technique. sure enough, something clicked and i was finally under control. i could turn left right and stop at will.  when they next spotted me they were amazed at how i was getting on compared to the previous.

the moral of the story is that for my enjoyment and my buddies it was prudent that i knew my limits.  used my time as best i could. had i followed them to pic blanc i would have wasted a lot of my own time and theirs plus i wouldn't be as good a skier as i now am.

sking isn't anywhere near as difficult to pick up as golf but the same principles of learning apply.
		
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Using your principles of learning, what handicap would you allow to play Championship courses? Ian Carter from the BBC was given the opportunity to play the US Open Course on Monday, he plays off 9(something I dream of) and he went round in 98, 27 over par or 16 over handicap, using your analogy there is no way he was ready for it and should've played lesser courses first!


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

He broke 100.    That's good enough for a 28 handicap.  

So around 9 then 


We all heard the stories from the guys on here who tackled Turnberry off the tiger tees.   It was a disaster score wise and not suitable for most handicap golfers.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 25, 2015)

phil78 said:



			I really don't understand this idea that having a 36 / 40 handicap means people won't try to improve.
*Pretty much everyone on this board has an aim to improve their handicap , be it to single figures, cat1 , 18.  *
*Similarly if you are reviewing your golf over a season , I'd have always thought the main measure would be the change in your handicap not "I won 2 Sunday Stablefords and Â£25 of vouchers for the pro shop" *
Maybe boards comps are slightly different but if it is so important these are won by a low handicap golfer make them scratch competitions, why allow someone with 10 shots, for example, to win them when other players may have scored a lower gross.
		
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This board isn't typical of club golf. I know several club golfers who have no desire to improve, they want a handicap they can comfortably play to that gives them a chance to win without putting in to much effort or practice. of course winning means getting cut, the nett result of which is they complain about not being able to compete off their new handicap and welcome the 0.1s until they get back to their comfortable handicap. (Slightly off topic)

However, back on topic ,while I personally believe more than 28 is too much, I do know that many clubs dish out 28 handicaps to anyone who hasn't demonstrated the ability to play better when submitting their cards, this is just wrong. You shouldn't get a 28 handicap by default. So maybe (and I haven't thought this through too much) there is a place for higher handicaps (such as there is in junior golf) to enable people to play off a more accurate handicap and enjoy it more since in my experience, if you enjoy something, you will likely improve quicker.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2015)

I remember the stooshie when handicaps went from 18 to 24. 
So...... for all of you 19 to 24 handicap male golfers who think 40 is too high.... perhaps you should think again.

No problem if the clubs handle it sensibly eg....29-40 handicap section with limits on peak time play.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I remember the stooshie when handicaps went from 18 to 24. 
So...... for all of you 19 to 24 handicap male golfers who think 40 is too high.... perhaps you should think again.

No problem if the clubs handle it sensibly eg....29-40 handicap section with limits on peak time play.
		
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Surely the 29-40 lot are already on the course, we just tell them to play to 28, and again isn't it scaremongering to think clubs are suddenly going to be innundated with masses of new clueless golfers slowing down play.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 25, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			This board isn't typical of club golf. I know several club golfers who have no desire to improve, they want a handicap they can comfortably play to that gives them a chance to win without putting in to much effort or practice. of course winning means getting cut, the nett result of which is they complain about not being able to compete off their new handicap and welcome the 0.1s until they get back to their comfortable handicap. (Slightly off topic)
		
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This is so true. I know 4 guys that always play together and go on holiday to play golf together and it's basically a battle to see who can keep their handicap the highest. Two of them have never had lessons, and feel like if their handicap is higher, they're more likely to win their group comps, not bothered about winning club comps, just interested in winning between the 4 of them. None of them practice, none of them are having regular lessons and from what I've seen, none of them want to get better. I'd say that's fairly common amongst club golfers across the country.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

As mentioned earlier you are supposed to earn a 28 handicap.  

How much this actually occurs I don't know.  I've never heard of anyone refused a handicap. 

I think, or at least I would hope that most people have enough sense to see how they are scoring themselves and see if they can post a score near a 28 handicap.  


It's not just the theoretical slow 4 ball 40 handicaps. Many including myself think that you shouldn't be able to win anything, be that a big trophy or a handshake if you have not broken 100. 

Most players will improve given time. Medals do not need to be handed out during the learning to crawl stage. 

The day someone wins the June medal playing off 40 is the day amateur competitive golf had been diluted too much.


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## rksquire (Jun 25, 2015)

Interesting thread, and the focus now seems to be on those starting the game.  However, there's a large proportion currently playing whose handicaps are going the other way - seniors & the like - who will help keep clubs alive and kicking with their Â£Â£Â£.  Increasing their handicaps beyond 28 will keep them competitive for longer, they are certainly not bandits.  
A guy in a society I play in, loves golf and plays off (slipped to) 28 and is never in the prizes.  I wouldn't begrudge giving him a higher handicap.


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## dewsweeper (Jun 25, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I think it is a massive leap to connect golf participation and higher handicap limits. 

Additionally, good golf clubs are not struggling for members.  The one I plan to join in Yorkshire has a waiting list. As does the one I would join if I stayed in Sussex.   I think there is a critical mass of the number of viable golf clubs in the UK and it is dictated by market forces.  Golf has been around for hundreds of years and will be for hundreds more.  Clubs will come and go.

My question to anyone saying that it is paramount that clubs recruit and that golf must be made to be a much more attractive proposition is very simple - why?   There are only a finite number of current and potential future golfers and they will find the clubs that they want to join and the clubs with a profitable amount of people will thrive. Others won't.  The golfing population and the market will determine the number of clubs that is optimum.  

There will be booms and slumps of course but golf isn't about to disappear!  Irrespective of how many shots people are given.
		
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Hear,hear.
I ,too belong to a well run,progressive club ,still able to have a joining fee.
I did ,however serve a 16 year apprenticeship playing municipal courses in and around London ,plus being a member of a golf society.
I do not think one size fits all with regard to h/caps but regard raising the top limit will do nothing for the game.
Dewsweeper


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

rksquire said:



			Interesting thread, and the focus now seems to be on those starting the game.  However, there's a large proportion currently playing whose handicaps are going the other way - seniors & the like - who will help keep clubs alive and kicking with their Â£Â£Â£.  Increasing their handicaps beyond 28 will keep them competitive for longer, they are certainly not bandits.  
A guy in a society I play in, loves golf and plays off (slipped to) 28 and is never in the prizes.  I wouldn't begrudge giving him a higher handicap.
		
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As I said In  the last thread on this topic I.am quite happy for older gents and ladies to have an increased handicap. 

Just not inclined to afford those that havnt yet put in the hours.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			As I said In  the last thread on this topic I.am quite happy for older gents and ladies to have an increased handicap. 

Just not inclined to afford those that havnt yet put in the hours.
		
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Some are naturals and come straight in a lot lower than 28, surely the future of the game is more important than those on the way out, we'd need to encourage people to take up the sport, the wrinklies keep playing regardless.


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## garyinderry (Jun 25, 2015)

I played golf for years for one thing and one thing only.  Fun.

I only every played with my family and friends.  None of us were serious golfers  apart from my brother.  He was the only one with a membership or handicap.

In fact I didn't even know what a handicap was. 

It could well be that the pressure to perform and have any handicap at all is the thing that eventually pushes away some people who try the game and give up as it is too hard. 

It was during these fun games that I actually learned how to shoot half decent scores without any pressure of a number or potential new number labelling me.

Believe me, Some are quicker to pick the game up but no one (very few) are complete naturals.  Everyone has been a hacker.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2015)

My point is nobody has actually come up with a genuine bona fide reason against raising the level, it's either one line throw away comments or negative comments about slow play and cheats winning comps.
4 or 5 people have put solutions how to possibly handle the rise, 
Even the reason it's being done has been explained, but still it seems to be more negativity based on.......what? Not exactly sure.


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## drdel (Jun 25, 2015)

I continue to be amazed at the illogical argument that rising the handicap will impact the pace of play and slow the game.

Golfers who might be classified in the 'new' high handicap range are on the courses today - Having a recording system that simply attaches a number to the golfer's score that is lower than his/her actual average number of shots makes absolutely no difference to the time taken and simply penalises genuine golfers who are entitled to a fair system - as that's the whole reason for the handicap process.

Those 'horrible' cretins that those of you snobs are suggesting should have a maximum of 18 are already out there an playing.

Raising the recorded number on a computer system will no change the time of a round.

On the question of Ladies handicaps being higher why have a higher permissible lever of incompetency allowed (following the argument I've had a shot at above) when the Ladies already play shorter distances off the Red Tees?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2015)

drdel said:



			I continue to be amazed at the illogical argument that rising the handicap will impact the pace of play and slow the game.

Golfers who might be classified in the 'new' high handicap range are on the courses today - Having a recording system that simply attaches a number to the golfer's score that is lower than his/her actual average number of shots makes absolutely no difference to the time taken and simply penalises genuine golfers who are entitled to a fair system - as that's the whole reason for the handicap process.

Those 'horrible' cretins that those of you snobs are suggesting should have a maximum of 18 are already out there an playing.

Raising the recorded number on a computer system will no change the time of a round.

On the question of Ladies handicaps being higher why have a higher permissible lever of incompetency allowed (following the argument I've had a shot at above) when the Ladies already play shorter distances off the Red Tees?
		
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Good point well made. there are many out there already getting more than a shot a hole and it makes no difference to pace of play and I'd argue that the difference between say a 22 handicapper and 18 for those that are stuck in the dark ages and want to limit handicaps here is negligible enough to be irrelevant. I don't think for one second raising the limit is going to make an iota of difference to pace and if it encourages more to take up golf and get a valid handicap then I think it's a good thing. It's only a starting point and hopefully it'll start coming down as players improve


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## Fyldewhite (Jun 25, 2015)

I don't think it will impact pace to any great degree at all.

The most difficult thing to manage in the current system is handicaps of players who are rapidly improving. This is hard enough with a starting point of 28 and extending this upwards will just make it more difficult as the range is larger and the capacity to improve quickly greater. I know ESR's help here but a player shooting 110-115 can very quickly become a player who shoots 95-100 and I'm not sure this will be catered for adequately. Consequently more new players will win off handicaps that are not really representative of their ability which will hardly help in the acceptance of this by the existing membership etc. That's why, as I posted earlier, I'd be in favour of the same starting point with an accelerated mechanism for going up towards the maximum for those that need it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			I don't think it will impact pace to any great degree at all.

The most difficult thing to manage in the current system is handicaps of players who are rapidly improving. This is hard enough with a starting point of 28 and extending this upwards will just make it more difficult as the range is larger and the capacity to improve quickly greater. I know ESR's help here but a player shooting 110-115 can very quickly become a player who shoots 95-100 and I'm not sure this will be catered for adequately. Consequently more new players will win off handicaps that are not really representative of their ability which will hardly help in the acceptance of this by the existing membership etc. That's why, as I posted earlier, I'd be in favour of the same starting point with an accelerated mechanism for going up towards the maximum for those that need it.
		
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But will they? How many off 28 regularly clean up. The fact that they are so high indicates that they struggle to be consistent, especially in medal rounds. They are more likely to get cuts bit by bit rather than going out and shooting the lights out


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## evahakool (Jun 25, 2015)

I don't have any problems with raising the h/cs to 40 if it gets more people playing and being able to compete all the better.

Seems simple to me, just have divisions for every competition so the 28 to 40 h/cs play in there own divisions.


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## palindromicbob (Jun 26, 2015)

Max 18 handicap. Penalties for any round exceed 3hrs 30 on a standard club course.  Stroke play only.   

Now sit back and watch the game die.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely the 29-40 lot are already on the course, we just tell them to play to 28, and again isn't it scaremongering to think clubs are suddenly going to be innundated with masses of new clueless golfers slowing down play.
		
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The masses of clueless golfers are already playing, that is why a round of golf is so slow and why many club golfers are giving the game up. [a game that used to be a sport]


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## Snelly (Jun 26, 2015)

palindromicbob said:



			Max 18 handicap. Penalties for any round exceed 3hrs 30 on a standard club course.  Stroke play only.   

Now sit back and watch the game die.
		
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Total and utter nonsense.  

It doesn't really matter what changes the R&A bring in, the game will not die and to say so is completely ridiculous.  There are millions of golfers, thousands of great courses and neither of those things are going to change due to limits on handicap whether they are 16 or 50. Nor will they change significantly due to any other gimmick that administrators dream up. 

As I said in a previous post, golf has a limited number of participants in every generation, albeit with the usual booms and slumps of any participation sport, and they will play at their clubs of choice regardless. Giving those that are considering taking up the game any sort of incentive to start, other than drastically reduced membership costs, won't make much difference to overall participation levels. 


I would be interested to know why people do stop playing.  Everything I have read points to a key reason being the time that golf takes up more than anything else. This certainly affects my decision to join a club or not.  I don't want to be out for 7 hours of a weekend day to play golf in a competition.   Slow play again - biggest problem in the game.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I would be interested to know why people do stop playing.  Everything I have read points to a key reason being the time that golf takes up more than anything else. This certainly affects my decision to join a club or not.  I don't want to be out for 7 hours of a weekend day to play golf in a competition.   Slow play again - biggest problem in the game.
		
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The people I know that have given up have, in the main, done so because they've fallen out of love with the game. Some have done so because of the arrival of wee 'uns, and a 2 hour or 5 hour round has had nowt to do with it. Personally, I've thought about giving up in the last year because it just doesn't come with the same buzz any more, and time has had nowt to do with it.

When I have played and its been a long round, all that means is instead of having an hour in the bar afterwards, its been 30 mins. All it does is eat into the post-round social. It doesn't affect what time I get home.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 26, 2015)

palindromicbob said:



			Max 18 handicap. Penalties for any round exceed 3hrs 30 on a standard club course.  Stroke play only.   

Now sit back and watch the game die.
		
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Not going to happen so no need to fear. Why would you impose these measures anyway. It's fourhours per medal round at my place (although invariably quicker and rarely longer and even then no more than say 10-15 minutes). Why impose 18 handicap and make it restrictive when CONGU already has it at 28. Nonsense.


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## Slab (Jun 26, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I would be interested to know why people do stop playing.  Everything I have read points to a key reason being the time that golf takes up more than anything else. This certainly affects my decision to join a club or not.  I don't want to be out for 7 hours of a weekend day to play golf in a competition.   Slow play again - biggest problem in the game.
		
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Top reasons in that big R&A survey was work commitments closely followed by family commitments, then cost of fees some way behind and in 4th was time taken to play


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## chellie (Jun 26, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I don't want to be out for 7 hours of a weekend day to play golf in a competition.   Slow play again - biggest problem in the game.
		
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Who on earth is out for 7 hours. 

Oh, and the slowest rounds I've ever been behind or in have been with single figure golfers.


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## Snelly (Jun 26, 2015)

Slab said:



			Top reasons in that big R&A survey was work commitments closely followed by family commitments, then cost of fees some way behind and in 4th was time taken to play
		
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So 1, 2 and 4 are all part of the same thing and relative to how much time needs to be committed to regular golf.   At least that is my view.


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## Snelly (Jun 26, 2015)

chellie said:



			Who on earth is out for 7 hours. 

Oh, and the slowest rounds I've ever been behind or in have been with single figure golfers.
		
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Travel to course, coffee and a practice putt, 18 holes of medal play, change, shower, couple of beers, travel - yes that can take up a long time. 

As for slow play with single figure golfers - I will have a game with you if you like and redress the balance.


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## Snelly (Jun 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not going to happen so no need to fear. Why would you impose these measures anyway. It's fourhours per medal round at my place (although invariably quicker and rarely longer and even then no more than say 10-15 minutes). Why impose 18 handicap and make it restrictive when CONGU already has it at 28. Nonsense.
		
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I am sure you are making another insightful observation here.  I just wish I could see what it was....


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2015)

Snelly said:



			As for slow play with single figure golfers - I will have a game with you if you like and redress the balance.
		
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Race you...:ears:

I used to go out early in the Medal with two other single figure guys, not first out but not far off. We were regularly round in less than 3 hours without rushing. Swapped to afternoons to coincide with HID's shift pattern, and was closer to 4 hours. Truthfully, it had nothing to do with h'caps but more to do with the number of people out on the course. Switched last year to a quieter club, with an extra minute between tee times. Very rarely experience slow play irrespective of what time we tee off.

Don't know whether its course design, or the extra minute, or less members, or all three but whatever it is there is vistually no slow play. And as per any club in the land there's the usual spread of handicaps.


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## garyinderry (Jun 26, 2015)

The more I think about it the less I actually care about this possible rise in max handicap.  If it did come into play it will not be a huge factor in people wanting to take up an expensive, time consuming exceedingly hard game. 

No patronising handicap is going to change the fact that golf is hard at the start. Many fall at this hurdle if they even get this far.


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## Slab (Jun 26, 2015)

chellie said:



*Who on earth is out for 7 hours.* 

Oh, and the slowest rounds I've ever been behind or in have been with single figure golfers.
		
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9 hours for me last Saturday & 11 hours on Sunday (door to door time)


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## Slab (Jun 26, 2015)

Snelly said:



			So 1, 2 and 4 are all part of the same thing and relative to how much time needs to be committed to regular golf.   At least that is my view.
		
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I haven't looked at that level of detail but I don't think 1 & 2 have anything to do with 4. It was work/family commitment not work/family time commitment

Time to play was deliberately given as an option for not playing (I guess to specifically separate it from reasons of work/family commitments)


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## Region3 (Jun 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good point well made. there are many out there already getting more than a shot a hole and it makes no difference to pace of play and I'd argue that the difference between say a 22 handicapper and 18 for those that are stuck in the dark ages and want to limit handicaps here is negligible enough to be irrelevant. *I don't think for one second raising the limit is going to make an iota of difference to pace* and if it *encourages more to take up golf and get a valid handicap* then I think it's a good thing. It's only a starting point and hopefully it'll start coming down as players improve
		
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The latter will lead to the former.

If the R&A want 110 to win the monthly medal then rock on. It won't lessen my chances any.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 26, 2015)

In terms of competitions I think this needs to be viewed in a different light for strokeplay and matchplay. 

OK it isn't going to affect the monthly medal, everyone will play their own game and the handicaps will work out the winner. Fine.

But matchplay between very low and very high handicaps simply isn't going to work; giving 3 shots a hole would make it farcical. My concern is that low handicaps will stop playing in club knockouts, which would be a shame.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 26, 2015)

People *may* take 7 hours or even longer to turn up, warm up, play and socialise after, but the core time of the round itself surely isn't going to change and that any decision to spend any significant time over and above turning up and playing is an individual one which would have no bearing on whether handicaps were increased or not.

I still fail to see why this proposed increase would impact so negatively on pace of play. I agree that in many (*not all*) cases, it is low single figure players who are slow, many especially some younger players (again not all by a long way) taking numerous practice swings and stalking putts from all angles. In my experience a lot of higher handicap players tend to play provisionals at the first sign of being in trouble and will move on quickly if the first ball is lost and so pace of play is maintained. 

Of course, it isn't universal and there are quick and slow players across all abilities but I really don't see any handicap increase impacting this and would love to see those that argue differently be able to produce something subjective to support this


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## palindromicbob (Jun 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not going to happen so no need to fear. Why would you impose these measures anyway. It's fourhours per medal round at my place (although invariably quicker and rarely longer and even then no more than say 10-15 minutes). Why impose 18 handicap and make it restrictive when CONGU already has it at 28. Nonsense.
		
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Of course it's nonsense. Exageration for effect and nothing more. But when you pick through a lot of the complains, rants, moaning etc that appear on here week in week out then it would appear that this is exactly what some people would like to see for competative golf.  

Will the sport actually die. Not a chance. But if something isn't done soon to increase participation then it will see less courses available and espeacially the smaller course that would be good breeding grounds for those starting out.  All well and good encoraging social rounds but some element of competition gives the game extra life and if increasing a handicap allows more participants to compete at some level (even if this means more focus on divisions rather than a single winner from the field) surely this will help.


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## UlyssesSky (Jun 26, 2015)

Don't know how many of you are aware of this, but in Germany (which is where I'm from) the handicap system is way different.

When starting out you first have to pass a test to get your "drivers license" for the golf course called "Platzreife" ("course readiness"). To pass the test you have to prove you are able to play to a HCP of -54, which then also becomes your first HCP. To set the HCP between -37 and -54 apart from the 'real' HCP they are sometimes called "Clubvorgaben" ("club handicap").

The "Platzreife" is mandatory to play on any golf course (except for some par-3 courses). (Most courses are private anyway, allowing only their members and members of other courses to play on the course)


To prevent people with a HCP over 36 from winning every tournament there's typically two or three handicap classes (mostly > 36 and < 36) for net scores. In competitions where there is only one hcp class the net prices (balls, merchandise stuff, etc.) aren't too exciting so there's no real incentive for sandbaggers to keep their handicaps up.

Other tournaments have a minimum hcp of -36, which is also the minimum you need to have to play on some courses (e.g. GC Munich Eichenried, where the BMW Open are taking place this weekend).

As weird (and maybe overly-beaurocratic/typically german) this system may seem, it holds some interesting advantages:

1. It makes it quite easy for beginners to monitor their progress via their handicap.
2. In order to get their handicaps down, people are forced to play tournaments from the begin on. 
3. It's much more appealing for beginners to pick up the game if they get a handicap early, can take part in competitions and don't have to feel like second class people until the finally manage to shoot -36/-28.

And since rules & etiquette are mandatory parts of the "Platzreife"-Test, typically the players with a "club handicap" are the ones who know when to play a provisional, when to let others play thorugh and, despite needing many strokes, generally move quite quickly on the course...


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 26, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			My concern is that low handicaps will stop playing in club knockouts, which would be a shame.
		
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Already happening. I don't bother with singles handicap matchplay anymore. Very few Cat 1 players seem to at our club from what I can tell. Waste. Of. Time. ! Would enter if they split into divisions, e.g 0-12.

4bbb is ok at 3/4 allowance and there are definitely more cat 1s involved in this knockout at ours, but if 90% comes in I'd imagine it would probably put off a few.

The problem with knockouts is, that allowances are being tailored to try and roughly equalise the number of low versus high handicapper match wins, basically subsidising the higher handicapper to make this happen. Personally I think this is the wrong approach. If higher handicappers are generally more likely to shoot above handicap more than low ones, then the balance of match play results should reflect this. It's should be about leveling the field relative to how you play versus your own handicap on the day, not about how your handicap group tends to play.

The main issue with handicaps in general are the fact that the majority of handicaps are not representitive. This is because the average club golfer does not play enough medal competitions. Time to make supplementary cards the norm, or move...to the american way of recording every round...that'll catch those slippery matchplay devils who 'just can't get it done with a card in their hand'...


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## garyinderry (Jun 26, 2015)

I would love to know where all these new players will be coming from if the 40 handicapers are already out there in 28 handicapers clothing.


Other incentives need to be looked at to grow the game.  Money needs to go into schools and get kids started when they are young and in big groups.  Trying to attract the odd adult here and there is a fruitless exercise on the whole. 

Dumbing down our current comp set up isn't going to change anything.  

People can count. You can chart progress without the need for inflated handicaps.  

It isn't overly difficult to get to a level where you can score off 28. It takes a little work and time. Most will get there. Some quicker than others.

 People should be playing for fun at the start. Learning to hit the ball, not worrying about dropping shots and chasing cuts.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 26, 2015)

the smiling assassin said:



			Already happening. I don't bother with singles handicap matchplay anymore. Very few Cat 1 players seem to at our club from what I can tell. Waste. Of. Time. ! Would enter if they split into divisions, e.g 0-12.

4bbb is ok at 3/4 allowance and there are definitely more cat 1s involved in this knockout at ours, but if 90% comes in I'd imagine it would probably put off a few.

The problem with knockouts is, that allowances are being tailored to try and roughly equalise the number of low versus high handicapper match wins, basically subsidising the higher handicapper to make this happen. Personally I think this is the wrong approach. If higher handicappers are generally more likely to shoot above handicap more than low ones, then the balance of match play results should reflect this. It's should be about leveling the field relative to how you play versus your own handicap on the day, not about how your handicap group tends to play.

The main issue with handicaps in general are the fact that the majority of handicaps are not representitive. This is because the average club golfer does not play enough medal competitions. Time to make supplementary cards the norm, or move...to the american way of recording every round...that'll catch those slippery matchplay devils who 'just can't get it done with a card in their hand'...
		
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Correctly handicapped players/members is a completely different issue from handicap allowances and the 'reward for excellence' that's already inherent in all 3 handicap systems (basically close to 13%) in all. The practical relevance of this across the basic formats  (medal, stableford, bogey/par and match play formats) becomes a function of an individual's normal distribution curve - everyone's will differ based on their capabilities and the challenges of the course being played.
Take out new players (significant improvers and learners ) and the low handicappers dominate at most clubs in both singles and BB formats and clean up at foresomes.

Just as a matter of interest, what proportion  of your membership has a cat 1 handicap?


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## rosecott (Jun 26, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			Don't know how many of you are aware of this, but in Germany (which is where I'm from) the handicap system is way different.

When starting out you first have to pass a test to get your "drivers license" for the golf course called "Platzreife" ("course readiness"). To pass the test you have to prove you are able to play to a HCP of -54, which then also becomes your first HCP. To set the HCP between -37 and -54 apart from the 'real' HCP they are sometimes called "Clubvorgaben" ("club handicap").

The "Platzreife" is mandatory to play on any golf course (except for some par-3 courses). (Most courses are private anyway, allowing only their members and members of other courses to play on the course)


To prevent people with a HCP over 36 from winning every tournament there's typically two or three handicap classes (mostly > 36 and < 36) for net scores. In competitions where there is only one hcp class the net prices (balls, merchandise stuff, etc.) aren't too exciting so there's no real incentive for sandbaggers to keep their handicaps up.

Other tournaments have a minimum hcp of -36, which is also the minimum you need to have to play on some courses (e.g. GC Munich Eichenried, where the BMW Open are taking place this weekend).

As weird (and maybe overly-beaurocratic/typically german) this system may seem, it holds some interesting advantages:

1. It makes it quite easy for beginners to monitor their progress via their handicap.
2. In order to get their handicaps down, people are forced to play tournaments from the begin on. 
3. It's much more appealing for beginners to pick up the game if they get a handicap early, can take part in competitions and don't have to feel like second class people until the finally manage to shoot -36/-28.

And since rules & etiquette are mandatory parts of the "Platzreife"-Test, typically the players with a "club handicap" are the ones who know when to play a provisional, when to let others play thorugh and, despite needing many strokes, generally move quite quickly on the course...
		
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As I would expect from your countrymen, there's obviously a lot of good sense and good organisation in your systems. I know that harmonisation of handicap systems is under discussion at national levels but we would do well to consider introducing some of the ideas you have highlighted.


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## effayjay (Jun 26, 2015)

Rather than golfing ability handicaps perhaps handicap should be determined by the speed in which you can play a round. Hell, do away with scores altogether and treat it as a time trial. 

I do understand that there are some seriously slow golfers who need a "word to the wise" but the issue of slow play is being massively over-hyped. Today I played in a three ball that took 3 hours for an 18 hole round. For most of that time we were being "pushed" by a fourball. As with everything, there is a balance to be struck.


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## USER1999 (Jun 26, 2015)

I am back to a point I have made many times before, but I still think has mileage.

Cats 1 and 2 should play medal, cats 3 and 4 should play stableford.

This would speed up play. Who the heck wants to be behind someone trying to break 110 in the medal, it's ridiculous. It's not an achievement. It just isn't.

28 is about right. On most courses, it's around 100 gross. It's not hard to break 100. It just isn't, and it never was, even when I started playing.

Increasing handicaps won't help. No one should be competitive shooting 40 over. It's just daft. 28 max, and stableford. If you can't score, pick up and walk on.


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 26, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Correctly handicapped players/members is a completely different issue from handicap allowances and the 'reward for excellence' that's already inherent in all 3 handicap systems (basically close to 13%) in all. The practical relevance of this across the basic formats  (medal, stableford, bogey/par and match play formats) becomes a function of an individual's normal distribution curve - everyone's will differ based on their capabilities and the challenges of the course being played.
Take out new players (significant improvers and learners ) and the low handicappers dominate at most clubs in both singles and BB formats and clean up at foresomes.

Just as a matter of interest, what proportion  of your membership has a cat 1 handicap?
		
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at present 58 out of about 300 odd members who hold a handicap are cat 1. There are just about as many 6 handicappers at a glance - perhaps around 1/3rd of the active competitive membership are 6 or better would be a rough estimate.


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

there is snobbery around low handicaps, and the fear of been beaten by someone off a high handicap.
if higher handicaps were introduced, then it might encourage more golfers to become members at clubs.
great idea about playing lesser courses, or par 3 courses especially if there are non near by!!!
i have been told that other countries have far higher handicaps than we do, and if true, it must work, also it might be an idea to introduce the slope system, as courses vary quite a bit.
if the handicap snobs do not like high handicaps, make all comps scratch comps, then they will have something else to moan at.
i have just changed clubs from where we had several comps played as divisional, and a few single division comps, no complaints, to a club where all the comps so far are single division, again no probs.
several moan about giving away lots of shots, that's golf, and i for one except it.
in my handicap knock out, i gave away 16 shots, had a thoroughly enjoyable game, shook his hand and wished him well in the next round.
some people take them selves to seriously, its just a game, win or lose.
i would always prefer to play well and lose than play bad and win, although it is nice to win, and i have been lucky.
one way of having a more reflective handicap, is to submit a card every time you play, what ever format, what ever the occasion.
the golfer from Germany made a fair point about having to undertake etiquette tests etc, its amazing how many low handicap golfers are unsure how to proceed in certain situations, or keep abreast of rule amendments.
may be for new golfers, the could play from the forward tees [ladies] until the have improved, but clubs should be helping these golfers, with time and even free lessons, as these may well be the future of the club
does it really matter what handicap other golfers are off, as long as they enjoy golf

shagster


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2015)

shagster said:



			several moan about giving away lots of shots, that's golf, and i for one except it.
in my handicap knock out, i gave away 16 shots, had a thoroughly enjoyable game, shook his hand and wished him well in the next round.
some people take them selves to seriously, its just a game, win or lose.

shagster
		
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I think you've somewhat missed the point, certainly of my moan about giving lots of shots. 16 is nothing, under these proposals I could give 50 shots. Can't say I'd be bothered about winning or losing that match as it would be a farce and certainly not enjoyable in any kind of sporting sense. Handicaps can only go so far towards contriving a competitive match and that's too big a gulf to bridge.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Handicaps can only go so far towards contriving a competitive match and that's too big a gulf to bridge.
		
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Absolutely spot on!

Its very difficult to feel like you're in competitive match when your opponent knobs it off the tee, then knobs it off the fairway. You almost feel like you're beating your opponent with every shot only to be told that was a 6 for 4 for a half. You have to ignore the poor shots because your opponent might be chipping from the edge of the green with their 4th shot whilst you're on the green for 2. He might sink his first putt for a 5 net 3, and you suddenly need a birdie for a half.


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## Snelly (Jun 27, 2015)

murphthemog said:



			I am back to a point I have made many times before, but I still think has mileage.

Cats 1 and 2 should play medal, cats 3 and 4 should play stableford.

This would speed up play. Who the heck wants to be behind someone trying to break 110 in the medal, it's ridiculous. It's not an achievement. It just isn't.

28 is about right. On most courses, it's around 100 gross. It's not hard to break 100. It just isn't, and it never was, even when I started playing.

Increasing handicaps won't help. No one should be competitive shooting 40 over. It's just daft. 28 max, and stableford. If you can't score, pick up and walk on.
		
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Great idea. Have not heard that suggestion before but it has considerable merit. 

Fantastic post Murph.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Great idea. Have not heard that suggestion before but it has considerable merit. 

Fantastic post Murph.
		
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I like his thinking. I'm sure given the choice most higher handicap players wild prefer to play stableford. Couple that with th being encouraged to pick up after they can't score any points would remove the slow play by a high handicapper having a bad day.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely spot on!

Its very difficult to feel like you're in competitive match when your opponent knobs it off the tee, then knobs it off the fairway. You almost feel like you're beating your opponent with every shot only to be told that was a 6 for 4 for a half. You have to ignore the poor shots because your opponent might be chipping from the edge of the green with their 4th shot whilst you're on the green for 2. He might sink his first putt for a 5 net 3, and you suddenly need a birdie for a half.
		
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Being off a low handicap there is always the risk that at some point you may play someone getting 2 shots on some holes. But when all of a sudden you are giving away 2 shots on every hole it is going to be very difficult to win. As you said I can think of nothing more demoralizing when for the third time in the round someone has thinned 3 shots in a row to then 2 putt to halve your birdie.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Being off a low handicap there is always the risk that at some point you may play someone getting 2 shots on some holes. But when all of a sudden you are giving away 2 shots on every hole it is going to be very difficult to win. As you said I can think of nothing more demoralizing when for the third time in the round someone has thinned 3 shots in a row to then 2 putt to halve your birdie.
		
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But when the high handicapper thins 5 in a row and 3 putts and you win it on a bogey, you think nothing of it!!!!!


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## garyinderry (Jun 27, 2015)

Americans already have a maximum handicap of 36 for men and they play loose with the rules. 


The game is in decline there too.   I see no evidence that this increase in uk handicaps will have many benefits. 



On Tuesday past at my club there wasn't a single 27 or 28 handicap player in the field.  Creating a 28-40 category would have a new player basically cut off from the rest of the club.   


They could increase the max handicap to 60 and the majority of the outside world would be none the wiser. It just dilutes the challenge that this great game provides.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But when the high handicapper thins 5 in a row and 3 putts and you win it on a bogey, you think nothing of it!!!!!
		
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Well if he lets me win with a bogey when he has 2 shots on a hole, that's his fault I don't see how that compares to hitting a good drive, a good second shot and holing a putt, only to halve the hole because someone scuffed 3 shots onto the green and 2 putted for a half.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 27, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			As mentioned earlier you are supposed to earn a 28 handicap.  

How much this actually occurs I don't know.  I've never heard of anyone refused a handicap. 

I think, or at least I would hope that most people have enough sense to see how they are scoring themselves and see if they can post a score near a 28 handicap.  


It's not just the theoretical slow 4 ball 40 handicaps. Many including myself think that you shouldn't be able to win anything, be that a big trophy or a handshake if you have not broken 100. 

Most players will improve given time. Medals do not need to be handed out during the learning to crawl stage. 

The day someone wins the June medal playing off 40 is the day amateur competitive golf had been diluted too much.
		
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My club doesn't give out 28 handicaps until someone has handed in 3 cards that warrant it.


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## garyinderry (Jun 27, 2015)

Canary_Yellow said:



			My club doesn't give out 28 handicaps until someone has handed in 3 cards that warrant it.
		
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Proper order.   have you heard of people that have been told they didn't meet the required level? 


I think it would be fine to give a 28 handicap to someone knocking on the door of 28 over as we can all shoot over our handicap but not some well and truly nowhere near it.


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## chellie (Jun 27, 2015)

Wonder if all those now on low handicaps never played matchplay when they were receiving shots


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Well if he lets me win with a bogey when he has 2 shots on a hole, that's his fault I don't see how that compares to hitting a good drive, a good second shot and holing a putt, only to halve the hole because someone scuffed 3 shots onto the green and 2 putted for a half.
		
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My point is, low handicappers only tend to highlight the holes were their great play is undone by a lucky jammy high handicapper, I would say if a single figure handicapper played someone off 28 but was currently a genuine 36 Handicap, the single figure would win every time, although the high handicapper on the law of averages wiuld have the odd hole were he'd Gross Par the hole or thin it for a half, the other 15-16 holes he'd more than likely struggle!


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 27, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Proper order.   have you heard of people that have been told they didn't meet the required level? 


I think it would be fine to give a 28 handicap to someone knocking on the door of 28 over as we can all shoot over our handicap but not some well and truly nowhere near it.
		
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It happened to my brother in law. The club just said that he should keep on practicing and playing and handing in cards.

Our medals and stablefords are quite flexible in that we don't have tee times so you can just turn up and play with mates or in a roll up group. So he played with us, playing to shoot a good enough round to submit while we played in the comp. His motivation to play his best was no different to mine - to get our handicaps down (or I suppose in his case to get one ). It worked well. He wasn't restricted in when he could play, other than 4 ball comps or drawn competitions, and got just as much enjoyment and satisfaction from improving as people playing in the comp did from a good nett score. 

I think 28 as a maximum is fine. All that is required is to play a round with 8 bogeys and submitting that card will give a 28. I don't want to restrict people's access to playing golf, but I don't think it's unreasonable to restrict competitive golf to 28 and below. I see competitive golf (handicap comps) as a way of encouraging people to get better and to keep it interesting, if you play off more than 28 surely the challenge of golf alone is enough to achieve that? 

I might be totally wrong!


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## garyinderry (Jun 27, 2015)

My old club back home had no restrictions either.  A member could play in the four ball along with 3 playing in the comp.

They introduced a booking system but anyone can book even if you are not playing in the comp.  Roll up any time until its dark and still play in the Comp.  

The handicap man was standing beside the 18th green in near darkness waiting for us many a time.


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## Sats (Jun 27, 2015)

Perhaps handicap alterations aren't the key. I'm in more favour of letting higher handicappers play off more forward tees and being able to use preferred lies all year round.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2015)

chellie said:



			Wonder if all those now on low handicaps never played matchplay when they were receiving shots

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To be honest, thinking back, I started on 16 handicap but joined too late to enter the knockout that year. I was 10 the following year and I don't really remember whether I played anyone lower than me that year. I've had the lowest handicap in the club since then....

I did play a mail on sunday match against a 3 handicap maybe three years ago who gave me 5 or 6 shots (and still won) but I think that might be the only competitive match I've ever played and been given shots.....


Lots of high handicappers missing the point, I think. I don't see anyone complaining about the principle of giving shots, I'm just complaining about the prospect of giving FIFTY shots which is an utterly pointless exercise. I regularly give 20+ at the moment - don't enjoy it much but that's not the sort of farce that giving 3 shots on 14 holes and 2 on the other 4 would be!


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2015)

chellie said:



			Wonder if all those now on low handicaps never played matchplay when they were receiving shots

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I remember receiving a shot about 8 yrs ago, but still lost on the 17th. Been low single figures since the era of demise of the small ball... and remembering yesterday is a struggle


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

do you really think there is going to be a sudden influx of new members with silly high handicaps and entering comps, no, i thought not.
this is only going to effect a few people, and all the clubs can counter act this sudden influx by creating various comps, and adding restrictive handicaps on other comps, but i still expect some low handicappers will moan about them being allowed to join the club.
when i play with a mate who is not a member, he plays off an approx handicap suited to his ability, and it always varies depends on how he is playing, so if we do play match play, we try and play on a levelish field, not pick up the table so all the balls role to one end.
golf is one of the few games where you can compete on an equalish footing, and that's the great thing, so i think its time to calm the paranoia and not worry about 50 handicappers winning all the trophies, it wont happen. as already posted, stats support better golfers winning more often.

shagster


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2015)

How about having to stand on a par 3 against someone getting 2 shots and knowing, if they par it,  a hole in one is only a half!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 27, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Couple that with th being encouraged to pick up after they can't score any points would remove the slow play by a high handicapper having a bad day.
		
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That's the issue. Too many still stubbornly battle on and hole out even when they can't score. That's needs to be broken but I don't see how.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2015)

chrisd said:



			How about having to stand on a par 3 against someone getting 2 shots and knowing, if they par it,  a hole in one is only a half!!
		
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Hey, give 3 shots and you may as well not bother teeing it up......:rofl:

And I've been in the position of needing a HiO for a half - giving a shot on a par 3 and he stiffed it to 6 inches...


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2015)

chrisd said:



			How about having to stand on a par 3 against someone getting 2 shots and knowing, if they par it,  a hole in one is only a half!!
		
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Regular occurrence for me on one of our par 3s. This'll be one of the holes where I'll be giving 3 shots..... I look forward to finally making my first hole in one but losing to a net 0.


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

lots of positives. one minute the high handicapper is knobbing it around, the next he is stiffing it to 6 inches. which is it?
lets do away with the handicap system then all is fair!!!

shagster


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## alexbrownmp (Jun 27, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I am sure you are making another insightful observation here.  I just wish I could see what it was....
		
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Snelly said:



			More utter tripe from you.  What is your point?
		
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## alexbrownmp (Jun 27, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Travel to course, coffee and a practice putt, 18 holes of medal play, *change, shower*, couple of beers, travel - yes that can take up a long time. 

As for slow play with single figure golfers - I will have a game with you if you like and redress the balance.
		
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do you sweat profusely? it's just a brisk walk.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2015)

shagster said:



			lots of positives. one minute the high handicapper is knobbing it around, the next he is stiffing it to 6 inches. which is it?
lets do away with the handicap system then all is fair!!!

shagster
		
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That pretty much sums up the average round for a high handicapper. Never played with one yet that goes round in 10 doubles and 8 singles.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2015)

shagster said:



			lots of positives. one minute the high handicapper is knobbing it around, the next he is stiffing it to 6 inches. which is it?
*lets do away with the handicap system then all is fair*!!!

shagster
		
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I'd be happy with that. Club golf as we know it would die though


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

i know it would die and i am against that totally, but it will keep the low handicappers happy as they can win all the trophies are prize pots.
as i mentioned earlier, there are ways around it, as others also mentioned.
its just golf not life or death and if i get beat by a high capper then so be it, let them have there moment of glory if they win the comp.
next we will be picking on female golfers because they can get 36 shots, and play of tees further forward, and in some cases i have seen, nearly 150yrds, but then low handicappers would not play in mixed events anyway so not a problem

shagster


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## garyinderry (Jun 28, 2015)

It isn't about high handicaps winning.   It's about shooting a score that actually merits a win.


I'm sorry but anything in three figures just doesn't cut it.    

You can give as many shots as you won't.  The current limit is at approximately 100 shots.  That's more than enough for anyone.  

Other than that. If you are new to the game.  Enjoy what the game sets out. You simply aren't ready for competition.


The only sport on earth where people think you should get rewards for turning up.  It isn't school sports day.  Get out there.  Earn it.  Enjoy it.   It will mean a lot more.


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## ger147 (Jun 28, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That's the issue. Too many still stubbornly battle on and hole out even when they can't score. That's needs to be broken but I don't see how.
		
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That assumes the comp is Stableford. Pretty much every comp in my neck of the woods is Medal play. And we rarely have slow play issues round here as even on busy weekends we rarely if ever take 4hrs for a 3 ball.


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## Craigg (Jun 28, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			It isn't about high handicaps winning.   It's about shooting a score that actually merits a win.


I'm sorry but anything in three figures just doesn't cut it.    

You can give as many shots as you won't.  The current limit is at approximately 100 shots.  That's more than enough for anyone.  

Other than that. If you are new to the game.  Enjoy what the game sets out. You simply aren't ready for competition.


The only sport on earth where people think you should get rewards for turning up.  It isn't school sports day.  Get out there.  Earn it.  Enjoy it.   It will mean a lot more.
		
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This :thup:


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## delc (Jun 28, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			[/B]

Clearly you are young enough to not remember when the mens max h/c was 18, bladed clubs and small balls.
		
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Er! I'm quite old and I can't remember the maximum handicap for men being less than 24. That was certainly the case in the early 1960's when I started playing golf. I can remember that all irons were blade type and small (1.62") British size golf balls.


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## MadAdey (Jun 28, 2015)

I am still trying to work out what the point of increasing the maximum handicap is.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			It isn't about high handicaps winning.   It's about shooting a score that actually merits a win.


I'm sorry but anything in three figures just doesn't cut it.    

You can give as many shots as you won't.  The current limit is at approximately 100 shots.  That's more than enough for anyone.  

Other than that. If you are new to the game.  Enjoy what the game sets out. You simply aren't ready for competition.


The only sport on earth where people think you should get rewards for turning up.  It isn't school sports day.  Get out there.  Earn it.  Enjoy it.   It will mean a lot more.
		
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I fully respect your stance and were you're coming from, 2 minor points you don't seem to address.
1. If you don't live near a Par 3 Course or a Municipal and you take up the game, love it practise hard and join a club, submit 3 cards and you're actually playing to 32-33 you're given a handicap of 28, you would then enter comps and hopefully improve to a real 28 and below. From your post above what your saying is that's OK to start of a false handicap because anything in 3 figures doesn't cut it! Unfortunately the main way to get reduced is to play in comps even if in your opinion they're not ready.
2. Rather than being the only sport on earth where people think you should get rewards for turning up, It's actually the only sport that allows people to compete on a level playing field because of the handicap system.


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## delc (Jun 28, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			I am still trying to work out what the point of increasing the maximum handicap is.
		
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Because there are players, particularly Juniors and Seniors and less athletic Ladies, who cannot play to the current maximum handicaps. My late wife was in the last category and it took her several years to eventually get down to 34, after which a shoulder injury unfortunately stopped her playing. For quite a long time her best score was 115 on a par 68 course. However she enjoyed the social side of golf, so why discourage players like her from playing in comps? She wasn't a slow player by the way: I was always telling her to take a bit more time over her shots!  My present club has a number of senior Gents and Ladies who can't play to the current maximum handicaps, so the proposed changes would benefit them.


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## swasterix (Jun 28, 2015)

There is another part of this issue that I think has been missed, from the perspective of the high handicapper. 

I am am relatively new to golf, and would consider myself to be an improving player. Joined my first club this year, and was given a handicap of 24 based on my first three cards. Played in a few comps so far and have got down to 23. I have no interest whatsoever in winning competitions, more so I am playing to get my handicap down.

i came third in a competition this week shooting a net 67. Did I feel good about this? Not really! Did I feel good about the hc reduction? Yes!

whenever you meet somebody, and the discussion turns to golf, the first question they invariably ask is "what's your handicap?". It's embarrassing enough to announce "24". I can only imagine the embarrassment of announcing "37"!

i would like to think that most high hc golfers, like me, have no interest in winning anything and are more interested in seeing improvement. I personally think that if I were to be given a handicap of 40, the embarrassment alone would be enough to put me off playing golf for life! At that level, you don't need a number to track your progress. You know in yourself that you are improving. Breaking 120, 110, 100, 90.

28 shots is more than enough to make even the poorest player competitive on their good days, without getting into a situation where abject failure is celebrated!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

swasterix said:



			There is another part of this issue that I think has been missed, from the perspective of the high handicapper. 

I am am relatively new to golf, and would consider myself to be an improving player. Joined my first club this year, and was given a handicap of 24 based on my first three cards. Played in a few comps so far and have got down to 23. I have no interest whatsoever in winning competitions, more so I am playing to get my handicap down.

i came third in a competition this week shooting a net 67. Did I feel good about this? Not really! Did I feel good about the hc reduction? Yes!

whenever you meet somebody, and the discussion turns to golf, the first question they invariably ask is "what's your handicap?". It's embarrassing enough to announce "24". I can only imagine the embarrassment of announcing "37"!

i would like to think that most high hc golfers, like me, have no interest in winning anything and are more interested in seeing improvement. I personally think that if I were to be given a handicap of 40, the embarrassment alone would be enough to put me off playing golf for life! At that level, you don't need a number to track your progress. You know in yourself that you are improving. Breaking 120, 110, 100, 90.

28 shots is more than enough to make even the poorest player competitive on their good days, without getting into a situation where abject failure is celebrated!
		
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So how long should you play staying at 28 and show no improvement even though in reality you may be coming down from 40 to 36 to 34 etc,
The issue imo isn't the high handicapper improving it's the low handicapper worried about all these 30+ handicappers winning everything, slowing down play and suddenly flooding onto Golf Courses all over the Country.


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## delc (Jun 28, 2015)

Many of our club competitions are split into two divisions, 0-15 and 16+. Generally the lowest nett scores are in the former, although you do occasionally get a bandit score in the latter. Therefore suggest that splitting comps into handicap divisions is the best way to keep the lower handicap players happy. It has been suggested that real golf starts at handicap 18 and below, and once this standard has been attained, then players are unlikely to improve that rapidly.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So how long should you play staying at 28 and show no improvement even though in reality you may be coming down from 40 to 36 to 34 etc,
The issue imo isn't the high handicapper improving it's the low handicapper worried about all these 30+ handicappers winning everything, slowing down play and suddenly flooding onto Golf Courses all over the Country.
		
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You're wrong, though, and clearly ignoring all the good points made by low handicap players on here. Truth is that handicap golf is a lottery at the best of times and genuinely low handicappers generally aren't particularly bothered about winning handicap prizes.

I have no great concern about someone off a very high handicap playing well (for them) and winning a medal. My concerns are all around matchplay which will become a complete farce if players at opposite ends of the enlarged handicap spectrum play each other. On the women's side it's bad enough already and going up to 54 has the potential to be just a complete joke. There needs to be a balance struck that encourages new players / high handicappers without making the whole thing so tedious and artificial that low handicappers just stop participating in their club knockout comps.


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## garyinderry (Jun 28, 2015)

As I mentioned earlier. My club back home did not restrict members when they wanted to play.   A new member can go out any time, any day.  The tee is open all day for comps. A new golfer may join three golfers in a comp. He can learnt to play and it is quite simple to know if you are improving.
You score yourself off 28 and you watch your score rise up to the magic 36 number. 

The bar does not need to be lowered.  The game is great where anyone can play anyone but competitions should and currently are for those that have at least a moderate level of skill. 


I had ready thought about that stigma of being a 40 handicap.  Golf clubs can resemble school playgrounds at times. I can only imagine the names that will get made up for 40 handicapers and a sub group of 28 - 40s.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're wrong, though, and clearly ignoring all the good points made by low handicap players on here. Truth is that handicap golf is a lottery at the best of times and genuinely low handicappers generally aren't particularly bothered about winning handicap prizes.

I have no great concern about someone off a very high handicap playing well (for them) and winning a medal. My concerns are all around matchplay which will become a complete farce if players at opposite ends of the enlarged handicap spectrum play each other. On the women's side it's bad enough already and going up to 54 has the potential to be just a complete joke. There needs to be a balance struck that encourages new players / high handicappers without making the whole thing so tedious and artificial that low handicappers just stop participating in their club knockout comps.
		
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I understand the point of view of the low handicapper, Gary has put them down very well previously on this thread, unfortunately you have reinforced my point, it's all about you and the problems you'll face playing the high handicapper, if you don't want to risk losing, don't enter the comp.
I don't think many if anybody who enters 3 cards gets a handicap will immediately start entering Matchplay comps, just think low handicappers are taking the extreme point of view to justify not changing the top level. I think if it gets more playing goid on them, and as also previously stated, comps should be played in divisions so your scenario never happens.


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## swasterix (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So how long should you play staying at 28 and show no improvement even though in reality you may be coming down from 40 to 36 to 34 etc,
		
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They should stay there until they earn a handicap lower than 28. The player in this example knows that they are improving, but should also know that perhaps they are not ready to be competitive.

the competition I mentioned in my last post was won by a 24 hc shooting a nett 62. Second place? 1 hc shooting a nett 64! Now this would be difficult enough to stomach, without considering that a 40 hc player could have beaten a player shooting gross -5, with a gross 103!

im all for levelling the playing field, but would you consider that to be fair?


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## delc (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're wrong, though, and clearly ignoring all the good points made by low handicap players on here. Truth is that handicap golf is a lottery at the best of times and genuinely low handicappers generally aren't particularly bothered about winning handicap prizes.

I have no great concern about someone off a very high handicap playing well (for them) and winning a medal. My concerns are all around matchplay which will become a complete farce if players at opposite ends of the enlarged handicap spectrum play each other. On the women's side it's bad enough already and going up to 54 has the potential to be just a complete joke. There needs to be a balance struck that encourages new players / high handicappers without making the whole thing so tedious and artificial that low handicappers just stop participating in their club knockout comps.
		
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I managed to get beaten twice in 4BBB matches last week, despite playing to my 13 handicap on both occasions. In both cases the culprits were 23 handicappers playing out of their skins. However they were both a bit erratic of the tee and each lost at least a couple of balls OOB or in deep rough, so I could see why their handicaps weren't lower. However their lower handicap partners covered for these holes,  and provided they kept their balls in play they were getting plenty of nett birdies. Neither of my partners played particularly well, so we lost. That's golf I'm afraid!


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## Craigg (Jun 28, 2015)

My angle on this is a simple one. What possible satisfaction can be gained from shooting 112 and claiming a nett level round. Shoot the 112 by all means, and enjoy your golf for what it is, a fun game, but to get amongst the prizes with that score, I'm afraid I'd be embarrassed. By the way, I am by no means a low handicapper. I average low to mid nineties.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

swasterix said:



			They should stay there until they earn a handicap lower than 28. The player in this example knows that they are improving, but should also know that perhaps they are not ready to be competitive.

the competition I mentioned in my last post was won by a 24 hc shooting a nett 62. Second place? 1 hc shooting a nett 64! Now this would be difficult enough to stomach, without considering that a 40 hc player could have beaten a player shooting gross -5, with a gross 103!

im all for levelling the playing field, but would you consider that to be fair?
		
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In a competition were i know the rules and the level of entry, *YES* no one forces me to enter and if a high handicapper has the round of his life good on him/her.
Golf in it's purest sense is scratch Golf, they are the best Golfers and no amount of worrying about the high handicapper having great day will change that.


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## MadAdey (Jun 28, 2015)

@ swasterix

Well said sir. This is the thing, why are people moaning about not being allowed 40 shots a round. Get playing, do a bit of practice and get better. I understand that some of the senior golfers can struggle to play to a 28. But if the UK adopted the slope and rating system like the US that would disappear. Here it is not ladies, men's and competition tee, it is red, yellow, white and blue. Each set of tees having their own slope and rating figures so you work your handicap off that. Now someone playing from the Reds can play someone from the blues as there handicaps have been evened out. 

This eliminates the problem of senior and less able bodied golfers not being able to get round a 6500 yard course, they now have less than 6000 to overcome.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

Craigg said:



			My angle on this is a simple one. What possible satisfaction can be gained from shooting 112 and claiming a nett level round. Shoot the 112 by all means, and enjoy your golf for what it is, a fun game, but to get amongst the prizes with that score, I'm afraid I'd be embarrassed. By the way, I am by no means a low handicapper. I average low to mid nineties.
		
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But it's OK for genuine 28 handicapper to do it, but not a 29 or 30 etc, Played in Divisions not an issue, he/she beats her/his peer group.


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## Craigg (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But it's OK for genuine 28 handicapper to do it, but not a 29 or 30 etc, Played in Divisions not an issue, he/she beats her/his peer group.
		
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I see your point, but there has to be a line, and 28, gross 100 being the magic figure to conquer has served us well. If you go to 40, and division it, you may as well go to 50, 60 etc. Where do you stop? I'm sorry, but there is no satisfaction to be gained in hacking it around in those scores, I've been there and hated it. I didn't even dare to join a club until I could break 100 on a regular basis, never mind enter a competition!


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I understand the point of view of the low handicapper, Gary has put them down very well previously on this thread, unfortunately you have reinforced my point, it's all about you and the problems you'll face playing the high handicapper, if you don't want to risk losing, don't enter the comp.
I don't think many if anybody who enters 3 cards gets a handicap will immediately start entering Matchplay comps, just think low handicappers are taking the extreme point of view to justify not changing the top level. I think if it gets more playing goid on them, and as also previously stated, comps should be played in divisions so your scenario never happens.
		
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Not sure if you're deliberately missing my point. It's NOT about winning or losing. It's that the gulf is too big at opposite ends of the spectrum to produce any sort of genuine competition and without that spark of interest there is simply no point. All of these matches will be determined by the level of awfulness in the 50 handicapper's play on that day, what the low handicapper does will be almost entirely irrelevant. Why would they bother?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

Craigg said:



			I see your point, but there has to be a line, and 28, gross 100 being the magic figure to conquer has served us well. If you go to 40, and division it, you may as well go to 50, 60 etc. Where do you stop? I'm sorry, but there is no satisfaction to be gained in hacking it around in those scores, I've been there and hated it. I didn't even dare to join a club until I could break 100 on a regular basis, never mind enter a competition!
		
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Entirely agree, These proposals by the looks of it are going to be introduced, rather than be negative about something I'll have no say in, I'd rather try and find the positives, will it cause problems?, Yes, will it encourage participation?, hopefully.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure if you're deliberately missing my point. It's NOT about winning or losing. It's that the gulf is too big at opposite ends of the spectrum to produce any sort of genuine competition and without that spark of interest there is simply no point. All of these matches will be determined by the level of awfulness in the 50 handicapper's play on that day, what the low handicapper does will be almost entirely irrelevant. Why would they bother?
		
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If it was me, I wouldn't and hopefully 99% wouldn't either, but it will only be the rules of that competition that will allow them to, and that's the area's, imo, we should be looking at, helping to integrate and educate rather than stopping them.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			If it was me, I wouldn't and hopefully 99% wouldn't either, but it will only be the rules of that competition that will allow them to, and that's the area's, imo, we should be looking at, helping to integrate and educate rather than stopping them.
		
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I meant why would the low handicapper bother. That's what I'm getting at - encourage beginners and high handicaps without discouraging everyone else.

For me, as Gary describes, the way to encourage people at that level is not to fast track them into mainstream competition golf before they are ready just by giving them stupidly high handicaps.

By all means increase the handicap limit but do it in conjunction with some innovation around the club - more social golf, comps exclusively for these very high handicaps, structured lessons etc etc. But please don't ask someone to give fifty shots in a match!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I meant why would the low handicapper bother. That's what I'm getting at - encourage beginners and high handicaps without discouraging everyone else.

For me, as Gary describes, the way to encourage people at that level is not to fast track them into mainstream competition golf before they are ready just by giving them stupidly high handicaps.

By all means increase the handicap limit but do it in conjunction with some innovation around the club - more social golf, comps exclusively for these very high handicaps, structured lessons etc etc. But please don't ask someone to give fifty shots in a match!
		
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The reason the low handicapper would enter is the prestige of winning the competition and if the competition rules allow the high handicapper to enter, again I would say the problem is the competition rules. I would really really hope once these Handicap limits are raised Clubs would do the sensible thing and review all comps so as to ensure all Golfers, regardless of Handicap, are catered for.


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## MadAdey (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure if you're deliberately missing my point. It's NOT about winning or losing. It's that the gulf is too big at opposite ends of the spectrum to produce any sort of genuine competition and without that spark of interest there is simply no point. All of these matches will be determined by the level of awfulness in the 50 handicapper's play on that day, what the low handicapper does will be almost entirely irrelevant. Why would they bother?
		
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Your wasting your breath, he just can't see what the problem is. I, like most low handicap players couldn't give a toss about winning a monthly medal and getting a Â£20 voucher for the pro shop. We know that there is not much chance of us winning a handicap competition and only play to lower our handicap as that is the biggest prize in golf.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Your wasting your breath, he just can't see what the problem is. I, like most low handicap players couldn't give a toss about winning a monthly medal and getting a Â£20 voucher for the pro shop. We know that there is not much chance of us winning a handicap competition and only play to lower our handicap as that is the biggest prize in golf.
		
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No need for you to be rude, if you actually took the time to read what FairwayDodger is posting about you'd see we are talking about matchplay, I've already stated I'd agreed with Gary and others about Monthly Medals and Stableford comps and the possible mine fields that await.


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## MadAdey (Jun 28, 2015)

I think this is an argument where people will need to agree to disagree. I personally do not see the need for this change and if people think it will encourage more people to take up the game I think they are mistaken. 

The biggest reason I here from people to not join a golf club is that they do not have the time to play regular golf. The reason I here from people why they are stuck with a high handicap, is because they do not have the time to practice. 

So is raising the handicap limit going to help this problem, or is it going to make it worse by encouraging people who struggle to break 110, to play in competition.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2015)

I agree with FD in so much as matchplay can be uncompetitive as a one-on-one competition when so much of it becomes an artificial calculation. In effect, it bears little comparison to playing ability and sport, and more to do with maths. But in truth, low-ish handicappers are already becoming disenfranchised from competing in many competitions. Its all well and good saying the low guys shouldn't enter but why push them away just to satisfy bringing someone else in? Your scratch to 12-ish guys can take a battering if there aren't divisions.

Its been discussed many times on here, that the low guys have to shoot course records to stand a chance of getting a sniff. I stopped playing most opens many years ago because of this. Preferring to only enter these comps to satisfy a desire to play a particular course. Increasing that differential further will on see this disparity between what a low guy can shoot and what he needs to shoot to be competitive grow further.

I've written in support of increasing the handicaps to bring more people into the sport, and of being more inclusive, but that shouldn't be at the expense of players who've put years of time, money and practice into improving. I feel that the UK has to adopt a similar process that has already been posted as is happening in Germany, if it wants to extend the allowances further. And on top of that, there needs to be more mid-handicap comps.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with FD in so much as matchplay can be uncompetitive as a one-on-one competition when so much of it becomes an artificial calculation. In effect, it bears little comparison to playing ability and sport, and more to do with maths. But in truth, low-ish handicappers are already becoming disenfranchised from competing in many competitions. Its all well and good saying the low guys shouldn't enter but why push them away just to satisfy bringing someone else in? Your scratch to 12-ish guys can take a battering if there aren't divisions.

Its been discussed many times on here, that the low guys have to shoot course records to stand a chance of getting a sniff. I stopped playing most opens many years ago because of this. Preferring to only enter these comps to satisfy a desire to play a particular course. Increasing that differential further will on see this disparity between what a low guy can shoot and what he needs to shoot to be competitive grow further.

I've written in support of increasing the handicaps to bring more people into the sport, and of being more inclusive, but that shouldn't be at the expense of players who've put years of time, money and practice into improving. I feel that the UK has to adopt a similar process that has already been posted as is happening in Germany, if it wants to extend the allowances further. And on top of that, there needs to be more mid-handicap comps.
		
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Fully agree with what you've put, the organisers have got to look after the best Golfers and the only way will be to put handicap limits on some comps or play in divisions, my comment about low handicappers not entering isn't being flipant, it's agreeing with FD that if you entered a matchplay comp with no Handicap limit you'd be risking getting drawn against a 40 to 50 handicapper and all the pitfalls that would bring.


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## delc (Jun 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			In a competition were i know the rules and the level of entry, *YES* no one forces me to enter and if a high handicapper has the round of his life good on him/her.
Golf in it's purest sense is scratch Golf, they are the best Golfers and no amount of worrying about the high handicapper having great day will change that.
		
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The problem with that argument at club level is that every comp would be won by one of a very small number of elite Cat 1 golfers.  There would be no point in the rest of the members entering!  A perfect handicapping system (and CONGU is far from perfect) should give every member an equal chance of winning.


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## Snelly (Jun 29, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:





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You have never posted anything of merit on this forum.  You are just a troll, nothing more.  

If we ever have a forum sweepstake to see who gets blackballed next, fingers crossed that I draw you out of the hat. 

Moronic.  

Goodbye.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2015)

As my club seems to be going the route of allowing visitors on who don't have any handicap then raising handicap limit to 40 won't have any impact on that front.   

As far as comps.  Again been said here plenty of times already - but higher handicappers are generally too inconsistent to win 'major' club comps - sure some will shoot mega low netts in medals (that's why we have divisions) and the serious random element to, and nature of, higher handicappers golf means that I don't think there's going to be a big difference in number of times higher handicappers win 'single division' comps. 

Speed of play might be a bit of an issue at first if you have fourballs of 40 handicappers on the course.  BUT they'll soon learn they have to speed up their general speed round the course to accommodate the number of shots they are playing - as otherwise they will find that they are continually being hassled by following groups and having to let groups through.  The issue, if there is one, I think would be transitional.


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