# poppy's



## Rooter (Oct 27, 2014)

Two fold post, one.

I am in Frankfurt tomorrow for an exhibition, what is the view/stance on wearing a poppy in Germany? I genuinely don't know and can not really find much out online, so looking for some first hand experience. My thoughts right now are wear it, as most simply have no idea what its about and those that do support or at least understand its meaning, but last thing i want to do is offend people, that's what i come here for!


Two:

Just bought my poppy from an elderly lady in town, she told me she has been selling them every year since she was 14, she told me she is now 82! I said she deserved a medal for it! For which she replied with "I got one last year love" #Brilliant!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2014)

You will be fine wearing a poppy in Germany - they fully understand what it means 

Every year we used to help the RAFA sell poppies at Supermarkets - there was a big problem two years ago when Tescos wouldn't let the old guy ( 81 ) stand inside to sell them so he stood outside freezing - when our boss arrived to help him he went ballistic - spoke to the manager who said he couldn't allow him to stand inside because of some company policy - we promptly left and went to Waitrose instead - saw lots of people promptly put shopping down and follow him to Waitrose

This year he is in Morrisons and Homebase and warm with lots of help 

Saw on Facebook another Morrisons has refused to allow another vet to stand inside


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## Val (Oct 27, 2014)

My own personal view is you do not have to wear a poppy to show respect for the fallen, personally if i was in Germany I wouldn't wear one.

I appreciate this view may be shared with very few.

And before people jump at my comment I will add I am ex forces so understand all about wearing a poppy and I do always have one at this time of year I just don't wear it everywhere.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2014)

I agree with Val. Some may see it as rubbing their noses in it a little. Why push things? Wait until you come back and wear it then.


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## CMAC (Oct 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You will be fine wearing a poppy in Germany - they fully understand what it means 

Every year we used to help the RAFA sell poppies at Supermarkets - there was a big problem two years ago when Tescos wouldn't let the old guy ( 81 ) stand inside to sell them so he stood outside freezing - when our boss arrived to help him he went ballistic - spoke to the manager who said he couldn't allow him to stand inside because of some company policy - we promptly left and went to Waitrose instead - saw lots of people promptly put shopping down and follow him to Waitrose

This year he is in Morrisons and Homebase and warm with lots of help 

*Saw on Facebook another Morrisons has refused to allow another vet to stand inside*

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if thats true then Morrisons will lose any cash from me in the future.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2014)

CMAC said:



			if thats true then Morrisons will lose any cash from me in the future.
		
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How true it is im not sure


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## woody69 (Oct 27, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I agree with Val. *Some may see it as rubbing their noses in it a little*. Why push things? Wait until you come back and wear it then.
		
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Rubbing whose noses in what? The poppy is a symbol to commemorate all of the falllen on the battlefield, not just British. It is a mark of respect to every soldier that fought for their country and died.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2014)

The poppy has become the symbol of the Allies from that period of history, WW1 & 2. That it represents more is not always seen by others. I am sure most Germans would not mind but some may feel uncomfortable and some may be hostile. Why push that button? The poster is a guest in that country, we are friends now, so being sensitive to certain issues is a wise move in my experience.


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## woody69 (Oct 27, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The poppy has become the symbol of the Allies from that period of history, WW1 & 2. That it represents more is not always seen by others. I am sure most Germans would not mind but some may feel uncomfortable and some may be hostile. Why push that button? The poster is a guest in that country, we are friends now, so being sensitive to certain issues is a wise move in my experience.
		
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Then they need to be educated, because that is not what it represents.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The poppy has become the symbol of the Allies from that period of history, WW1 & 2. That it represents more is not always seen by others. I am sure most Germans would not mind but some may feel uncomfortable and some may be hostile. Why push that button? The poster is a guest in that country, we are friends now, so being sensitive to certain issues is a wise move in my experience.
		
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Whilst out in Kandahar we had a memorial service for Remeberance Sunday - there was a group of German Army Personel on the base who attended and wore a poppy and their CO laid a wreath of poppies


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## c1973 (Oct 27, 2014)

Whatever you do, if you do wear it, don't get into an argument with any German over it..........you'll only end up telling them that 'they started it....'


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 27, 2014)

I don't wear a poppy, I do put my change in the poppy appeal tins whenever possible though.

My reason for not wearing one is personal and probably seen as childish by folk on here.

The highjacking of the whole poppy appeal/WWI by the maroon hoardes in Edinburgh turns my stomach.I know all about Contalmaison, I know all about the players from other team who perished there too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2014)

Maroon hoardes ? Who are they ?


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## c1973 (Oct 27, 2014)

Hearts fans.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whilst out in Kandahar we had a memorial service for Remeberance Sunday - there was a group of German Army Personel on the base who attended and wore a poppy and their CO laid a wreath of poppies
		
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I am not surprised at that. Most Germans are very sensitive and apologetic towards their recent history. The poster is going to be at an exhibition however, it is work. Do you want to be potentially upsetting some people, potential or existing customers on a work trip? It is up to the poster but I don't wear my poppy when I am across at that time and I don't remember others wearing them either. Nobody makes an issue of it, it is just being sensitive to those around you.

Clearly plenty will not agree but that is my view. Post when you come back as to how it went and whether poppies were worn.


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 27, 2014)

CMAC said:



			if thats true then Morrisons will lose any cash from me in the future.
		
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...side-in-cold-9820878.html?cmpid=facebook-post


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 27, 2014)

Thought the poppy was now seen as a universal sign of rememberance and so you'd be respecting the German fallen too.


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## Slab (Oct 28, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...side-in-cold-9820878.html?cmpid=facebook-post

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So the British legion wanted the old fella outside to increase sales and a passer-by thought he should have been inside to be warmer & has a go at the manager who didn't know an 89yr old veteran had taken the afternoon shift (not sure if passer-by has also had a go at British legion yet or not) 

And it makes the national press as newsworthy (no thanks again to social media)


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## Ethan (Oct 28, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I don't wear a poppy, I do put my change in the poppy appeal tins whenever possible though.

My reason for not wearing one is personal and probably seen as childish by folk on here.

The highjacking of the whole poppy appeal/WWI by the maroon hoardes in Edinburgh turns my stomach.I know all about Contalmaison, I know all about the players from other team who perished there too.
		
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The same is true of the Orange Order types in NI. Many Catholics and southern Irishmen died in WWI, but the poppy has been adopted as an extension of loyalism and support for the loyalist conception of "Ulster", hence it is a highly politicised symbol and many or most NI Catholics will therefore not wear one, myself included.


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## Val (Oct 28, 2014)

Ethan said:



			The same is true of the Orange Order types in NI. Many Catholics and southern Irishmen died in WWI, but the poppy has been adopted as an extension of loyalism and support for the loyalist conception of "Ulster", hence it is a highly politicised symbol and many or most NI Catholics will therefore not wear one, myself included.
		
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Not my reasoning but the reason there was such carry on at Celtic Park over poppies on shirts and minutes silences not being observed. I agree poppies shouldn't be forced on football shirts or on anyone for that matter but the non observing of minutes silences was shameful.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2014)

It always amazes me when something that is there to remind us of the sacrafices people made for our freedom turn it into something political


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## Ethan (Oct 28, 2014)

Val said:



			Not my reasoning but the reason there was such carry on at Celtic Park over poppies on shirts and minutes silences not being observed. I agree poppies shouldn't be forced on football shirts or on anyone for that matter but the non observing of minutes silences was shameful.
		
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People should respect these things even if they don't personally observe them. They command more respect when done with dignity, though, and that is not always the case in politically charged settings.


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## North Mimms (Oct 28, 2014)

I went to see the Poppy installation at Tower of London today.

Simply stunning.
I looked at it and my eyes filled with tears.
A beautiful memorial to an ugly thing.


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## c1973 (Oct 28, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It always amazes me when something that is there to remind us of the sacrafices people made for our freedom turn it into something political
		
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Indeed. It's shameful that it becomes 'political' when support is shown to our current armed forces and/or remembrance of the fallen. Sadly it does not surprise me. 



As an aside, I knew an ex service man that refused to support the poppy appeal because of its connection with Haig. He was of the opinion that Haig sent many men to their deaths needlessly (he was more specific, unfortunately I don't fully recall the details) and chose to support other charitable causes instead. He was quite passionate about it as well.
Never come across that point of view before or since and was never quite sure what to make of it.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I went to see the Poppy installation at Tower of London today.

Simply stunning.
I looked at it and my eyes filled with tears.
A beautiful memorial to an ugly thing.
		
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Couldn't agree more.  Went yesterday & was there for the Roll of Honour & the Last Post.  Very moving, would have been even more so if all present could have kept their traps shut.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I went to see the Poppy installation at Tower of London today.

Simply stunning.
I looked at it and my eyes filled with tears.
A beautiful memorial to an ugly thing.
		
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Amazing isnt it - a very moving display


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2014)

It's a one off sight and a must see. HID has actually ordered three of the poppies


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 29, 2014)

On BBC breakfast now the lovely Steff is live from Frankfurt and is wearing a poppy


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## guest100718 (Oct 29, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It's a one off sight and a must see. HID has actually ordered three of the poppies
		
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Anyone who hasnt seen it, should really make the effort to go and take a look.


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 29, 2014)

Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day


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## guest100718 (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

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there's always one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

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I have nothing but pity and sadness for someone who writes that and anyone that believes in it


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## Birchy (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

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I don't think I can accurately describe that without multiple infractions.

Talk about a lack of respect.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I don't think I can accurately describe that without multiple infractions.

Talk about a lack of respect.
		
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Shoddy journalism and an article designed to cause a shock and therefore notoriety. Lazy writing and completely misses the whole point. Pretty impressive thing to do when you consider it and what the money being raised is going towards.


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			there's always one.
		
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Do you mean me or the journalist?

If you mean the journalist, I think you'll find there's far more than just him with this opinion, if you mean me, how do you know I share is view?


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 29, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Shoddy journalism and an article designed to cause a shock and therefore notoriety. *Lazy writing and completely misses the whole point.* Pretty impressive thing to do when you consider it and what the money being raised is going towards.
		
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What do you think the point he misses is?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2014)

It's to remember people who put their lives on the line for our freedom - a Remeberance to them - nothing more


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## guest100718 (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Do you mean me or the journalist?

If you mean the journalist, I think you'll find there's far more than just him with this opinion, if you mean me, how do you know I share is view?
		
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He's intitled to his opninion, as are you. But having been to see the poppies and will go again today, i find it hard to belive there are far more who share his view.


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## Adi2Dassler (Oct 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			He's intitled to his opninion, as are you. But having been to see the poppies and will go again today, i find it hard to belive there are far more who share his view.
		
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Far more than one person who thinks we should remember those from other countries that perished in WWI?That war is not noble?


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

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I think he is making a subtle point, apparently missed by many. 

The point he is making is that the very thing that people here are complaining about - that this is an act of remembrance - is overlooked by many or most of those who go along to the Tower or wear a poppy. Many of them don't know what The Great War was about, what happened and what we should reflect upon now about it.


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## Birchy (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a subtle point, apparently missed by many. 

The point he is making is that the very thing that people here are complaining about - that this is an act of remembrance - is overlooked by many or most of those who go along to the Tower or wear a poppy. Many of them don't know what The Great War was about, what happened and what we should reflect upon now about it.
		
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Many thanks to the forums' very own genius for spelling it out for those with a low IQ. :thup:


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## guest100718 (Oct 29, 2014)

Many will go just to see the poppies, with little or no thought about why they are there, but will go on to question what they have seen.

Does everyone how looks at or climbs monument know why it was built?


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Many thanks to the forums' very own genius for spelling it out for those with a low IQ. :thup:
		
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Glad to help you out.


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## Birchy (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Glad to help you out.
		
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Would be lost without you. When you next on eggheads?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			The same is true of the Orange Order types in NI. Many Catholics and southern Irishmen died in WWI, but the poppy has been adopted as an extension of loyalism and support for the loyalist conception of "Ulster", hence it is a highly politicised symbol and many or most NI Catholics will therefore not wear one, myself included.
		
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I would have thought that you would be able to realise it has nothing to do with loyalist and be able to wear one for it's true reason ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2014)

If anyone who goes is provoked into remembering the fallen of ANY conflict, more than they had done before then surely it isn't and hasn't been a waste. Sadly in the modern society there is too little time taken to actually reflect on many things that's hapeening across the globe and sometimes it takes something as visually moving to prick the conscience a little. Far better and far longer in the memory than a gory moat covered display advocated in the original piece


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## brendy (Oct 29, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would have thought that you would be able to realise it has nothing to do with loyalist and be able to wear one for it's true reason ?
		
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Politicians in NI on both sides have used it for their own gain for decades, I can see it for what it is and I am neither catholic nor protestant, in fact the whole idea of them and us turns my stomach at how juvenile it all is. I dont wear a poppy but donate annually and give them (poppies) to my kids.


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## Qwerty (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a subtle point, apparently missed by many.
		
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There is nothing Subtle about the headline.

Its just the usual smug self congratulatory crap that you find in the Guardian.


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			There is nothing Subtle about the headline.

Its just the usual smug self congratulatory crap that you find in the Guardian.
		
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The headline was probably written by a sub-editor rather than the author of the piece. The piece itself doesn't use any of the adjectives, nor mention UKIP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2014)

Started off to be a piece of art for remembrance of 1914 and all war - has it become a 'must see' and 'be photographed at' tourist attraction and backcloth for a selfie for the hordes who now go there to see it.

I fear it has - and because of that it has lost it's purpose.

Besides - did it ever have any meaning beyond London and those able to visit London?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 29, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Started off to be a piece of art for remembrance of 1914 and all war - has it become a 'must see' and 'be photographed at' tourist attraction and backcloth for a selfie for the hordes who now go there to see it.

I fear it has - and because of that it has lost it's purpose.

Besides - did it ever have any meaning beyond London and those able to visit London?
		
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Depends on what it's original purpose was.  It may have been something to to solemnly remember those that have died in conflict.  Or it may have been as an art installation that will be seen by as many people as possible.  Or probably both.  

I think it's very difficult to tell people they are not 'remembering the fallen' properly as they are taking selfies or whatever.  It's what the younger generation do. And if a few of the people that are 'just' having selfies taken stop to think about why it is there then surely that is a good thing and better than never having visited it at all?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a subtle point, apparently missed by many. 

The point he is making is that the very thing that people here are complaining about - that this is an act of remembrance - is overlooked by many or most of those who go along to the Tower or wear a poppy. Many of them don't know what The Great War was about, what happened and what we should reflect upon now about it.
		
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As 'Most' are not clever enough to understand the relationship between Poppies, WW1 and Mans' great indifference to his fellow man, maybe you could educate us.  Just consider it your personal contribution to our enlightenment.


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## North Mimms (Oct 29, 2014)

Ethan said:



			The headline was probably written by a sub-editor rather than the author of the piece. The piece itself doesn't use any of the adjectives, *nor mention UKIP*.
		
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It does actually refer to UKIP.

" Itâ€™s the inward-looking mood that lets Ukip thrive."

Not that I care either way, but I do like accuracy


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Anyone who hasnt seen it, should really make the effort to go and take a look.
		
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We're hoping to see it in the next few days


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 29, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Far more than one person who thinks we should remember those from other countries that perished in WWI?That war is not noble?
		
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And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies.

For some idiot Arts Correspondent to turn this act of remembrance into _de facto_ support of UKIP and, therefore, worthy only of sneering contempt is a new low for this country but at least reminds us that one of the principles that has been fought over is free speech. 

The Great War still figures on the history curriculum of our schools and, indeed, my son has recently been teaching a class of 10 & 11 year olds. Just imagine explaining to them not only the futility of war but specifically the military tactics surrounding trench warfare.

Certainly some do not fully comprehend the significance of Remembrance Day or the Poppy Appeal but based upon my experience today at the Tower far more do realise its meaning.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies.

For some idiot Arts Correspondent to turn this act of remembrance into _de facto_ support of UKIP and, therefore, worthy only of sneering contempt is a new low for this country but at least reminds us that one of the principles that has been fought over is free speech. 

The Great War still figures on the history curriculum of our schools and, indeed, my son has recently been teaching a class of 10 & 11 year olds. Just imagine explaining to them not only the futility of war but specifically the military tactics surrounding trench warfare.

Certainly some do not fully comprehend the significance of Remembrance Day or the Poppy Appeal but based upon my experience today at the Tower far more do realise its meaning.
		
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Very good post :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies.

For some idiot Arts Correspondent to turn this act of remembrance into _de facto_ support of UKIP and, therefore, worthy only of sneering contempt is a new low for this country but at least reminds us that one of the principles that has been fought over is free speech. 

The Great War still figures on the history curriculum of our schools and, indeed, my son has recently been teaching a class of 10 & 11 year olds. Just imagine explaining to them not only the futility of war but specifically the military tactics surrounding trench warfare.

Certainly some do not fully comprehend the significance of Remembrance Day or the Poppy Appeal but based upon my experience today at the Tower far more do realise its meaning.
		
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I agree totally. I think there has been so much awareness over the centenary that the youngsters of today have a much better idea of all aspects of the conflict than perhaps even the second world war. The imagery at the Tower is potent and powerful and the money raised will continue to do so much good


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 29, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree totally. I think there has been so much awareness over the centenary that the youngsters of today have a much better idea of all aspects of the conflict than perhaps even the second world war. The imagery at the Tower is potent and powerful and the money raised will continue to do so much good
		
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I've lived with a number (a hell of a lot more than I expected) who knew nothing about WW1, not even who we fought. This is 20-25 year olds, so people who have allegedly all been taught it at school. It shocked me originally, but not any more. You're giving much too much credit to young peoples knowledge


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## Tashyboy (Oct 29, 2014)

Four experiences in my life relating to war which have moved me.

1, a visit to the war graves at Monte Cassino where my wife's grandfathers brothers inscription lies on the war graves.

2, a weekend in Diksmuide just north of Ypres, spent travelling around war graves, trenches of death and the 8 o'clock last post at Menin gate.

3, the National arboretum off the A 38 just south of Derby.

4, Aushwitz.

all very very emotional and sombre experiences.

Every year Missis tash buys a poppy and puts it on a photo in the hall of her grandads brother.

spending a couple a quid each year on a poppy is the very least I can do.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 29, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would have thought that you would be able to realise it has nothing to do with loyalist and be able to wear one for it's true reason ?
		
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It is strange how "symbols" can sometimes be "hijacked ?" and used as other means of recognition/ meaning.

i spent new year in Amsterdam last year and was gobsmacked to learn that the very symbol the nazis stitched onto gay prisoners in the death camps was a pink triangle. The gay community now wear that badge as a badge of "honour"to kinda say were not ashamed and fair play to them for turning a negative into a positive.


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies.
		
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Where did I say any such thing?

Please quote me.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Where did I say any such thing?

Please quote me.
		
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Seriously Ethan, take a little time out and reflect on what kind of message you are giving out.  For most it seems like you take the intellectual high ground on most issues and cannot understand how anyone with an IQ lower than your own is worthy of a opinion.


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## Ethan (Oct 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Seriously Ethan, take a little time out and reflect on what kind of message you are giving out.  For most it seems like you take the intellectual high ground on most issues and cannot understand how anyone with an IQ lower than your own is worthy of a opinion.
		
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Socket, it isn't a matter of intellectual high ground, but if something is said that I think is wrong, then I have the right to offer what I think is correct. People can choose to accept or reject what I say. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but everyone has the right to comment on other people's opinions, and many do on mine. Although I dispute that is what I do, what is wrong with the intellectual high ground? Isn't it better than the alternative?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Couldn't agree more.  Went yesterday & was there for the Roll of Honour & the Last Post.  Very moving, would have been even more so if all present could have kept their traps shut. 

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Went to a match at Hillsborough last year.  Afterwards lad and I went to the memorial - and quite a lot of fans (of cardiff and Sh Wed) looking on silently and no photos being taken.  That's remembrance in my mind.  But I fear not how the ToL installation is viewed today.  Which is a great pity and about which nothing can be done.  Though the thought of busloads of Japanese tourists yacking away getting their photo's taken by each other in front of it does rather make me reflect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a differing view of the poppy installation.The final paragraph kinda strikes a chord with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde.../tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

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I rather get what he's on about.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Socket, it isn't a matter of intellectual high ground, but if something is said that I think is wrong, then I have the right to offer what I think is correct. People can choose to accept or reject what I say. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but everyone has the right to comment on other people's opinions, and many do on mine. Although I dispute that is what I do, what is wrong with the intellectual high ground? Isn't it better than the alternative?
		
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It's possible to have an opinion without insulting peoples intelligence and you seem to reach for that card a little too often.  No doubt you are a bright guy in your field of work but that does not automatically mean you have a better grasp of everyday life.   In fact I have known a number of people that are very intelligent but with little common sense.


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## Ethan (Oct 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			It's possible to have an opinion without insulting peoples intelligence and you seem to reach for that card a little too often.  No doubt you are a bright guy in your field of work but that does not automatically mean you have a better grasp of everyday life.   In fact I have known a number of people that are very intelligent but with little common sense.
		
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If people perceive me calling UKIP policies, for example, stupid as a personal attack, then they are missing the point. However, if people attack me, I will respond. 

I notice that several other people in this thread have supported the Guardian article, but haven't been attacked like I have been for it. That looks rather like ad hominem attacks on me, not on the arguments made.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Where did I say any such thing?

Please quote me.
		
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In post #40 you attempted to place in context the offending article.

You then proceeded to attempt to justify the journalist's comments by suggesting that his point may have been too subtle for many to understand.

That form of assumed intellectual superiority is both smug and futile since once it is identified it weakens any further arguments from the source.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Went to a match at Hillsborough last year.  Afterwards lad and I went to the memorial - and quite a lot of fans (of cardiff and Sh Wed) looking on silently and no photos being taken.  That's remembrance in my mind.  But I fear not how the ToL installation is viewed today.  Which is a great pity and about which nothing can be done.  Though the thought of busloads of Japanese tourists yacking away getting their photo's taken by each other in front of it does rather make me reflect.
		
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But isn't *part* of the function of the poppys you are talking about is that it is an art installation. And art is for looking at, taking pictures of, discussing, having an opinion on?  The Hillsborough memorial is more of a 'traditional memorial' for want of a better description where tourists having selfies in front of it is probably less appropriate, although I have no doubt it does happen.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			If people perceive me calling UKIP policies, for example, stupid as a personal attack, then they are missing the point. However, if people attack me, I will respond. 

I notice that several other people in this thread have supported the Guardian article, but haven't been attacked like I have been for it. That looks rather like ad hominem attacks on me, not on the arguments made.
		
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Please be assured that my intention was not to single out you and your views for attack.

Rather it was a criticism of the dismissive and almost contemptuous attitude you were displaying towards those who did not appreciate the journalist's remarks.

Like yourself I strongly value the right of all to their opinions (even Guardian or Daily Mail journalists) but I believe equally forcefully that we none of us have a right to be dismissive of those whose opinions we may not share.


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## guest100718 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			If people perceive me calling UKIP policies, for example, stupid as a personal attack, then they are missing the point. However, if people attack me, I will respond. 

I notice that several other people in this thread have supported the Guardian article, but haven't been attacked like I have been for it. That looks rather like ad hominem attacks on me, not on the arguments made.
		
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Have you been to see it?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But isn't *part* of the function of the poppys you are talking about is that it is an art installation. And art is for looking at, taking pictures of, discussing, having an opinion on?  The Hillsborough memorial is more of a 'traditional memorial' for want of a better description where tourists having selfies in front of it is probably less appropriate, although I have no doubt it does happen.
		
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Agree very strongly with this view.

If only a miniscule proportion of those visiting this site now find themselves considering for the first time the futility of war and its devastating effects upon all involved then, in my view, the whole operation will have been worthwhile.


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Went to a match at Hillsborough last year.  Afterwards lad and I went to the memorial - and quite a lot of fans (of cardiff and Sh Wed) looking on silently and no photos being taken.  That's remembrance in my mind.  But I fear not how the ToL installation is viewed today.  Which is a great pity and about which nothing can be done.  Though the thought of busloads of Japanese tourists yacking away getting their photo's taken by each other in front of it does rather make me reflect.
		
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Good analogy this. I would like to think the TOL display organisers were more about rememberance than creating the tourist attraction that it has become, however im not so sure unfortunately.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a subtle point, *apparently missed by many. *

The point he is making is that the very thing that people here are complaining about - that this is an act of remembrance - is overlooked by many or most of those who go along to the Tower or wear a poppy. Many of them don't know what The Great War was about, what happened and what we should reflect upon now about it.
		
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I read *this* as meaning the many in the broader world outside the bounds of this community who are 'up in arms' (poor phrase I know) over this - so those here taking 'offence' by taking it as @Ethan lecturing us I think are being a touch too sensitive or indeed a little disingenuous.  Some of the ranting rubbish I have heard on phone-ins over this article suggest that @Ethan is quite correct.  

But I suppose that this it is what you come to expect from folks who do not actually read the words written, but either read between the lines and create their own version of what the commentator has written, or get their facts second hand from the first lot.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2014)

Val said:



			Good analogy this. I would like to think the TOL display organisers were more about rememberance than creating the tourist attraction that it has become, however im not so sure unfortunately.
		
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To be fair, I thought the TOL were very clear that this was a piece of artwork but with more solemn undertones connected with the act of remembrance. As someone else said, if the artwork, memorial or whatever label you want to tag on it promotes these busloads of Japanese, European and American tourists (and those from other parts of the world) to spend a few seconds contemplating wars across the globe from WW1 onwards then surely it's done what it set out to do


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read *this* as meaning the many in the broader world outside the bounds of this community who are 'up in arms' (poor phrase I know) over this - so those here taking 'offence' by taking it as @Ethan lecturing us I think are being a touch too sensitive or indeed a little disingenuous.  Some of the ranting rubbish I have heard on phone-ins over this article suggest that @Ethan is quite correct.  

But I suppose that this it is what you come to expect from folks who do not actually read the words written, but either read between the lines and create their own version of what the commentator has written, or get their facts second hand from the first lot.
		
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But now you, like Ethan and the journalist before you, are making the same *assumption *on the thoughts and motives of those who visit this display or wear a poppy.

Whilst you may find it convenient to your argument to do this please do not suggest that I or others have entered this debate without first researching.


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## CMAC (Oct 30, 2014)

TOL?


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## guest100718 (Oct 30, 2014)

CMAC said:



			TOL?
		
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Tower of London


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But now you, like Ethan and the journalist before you, are making the same *assumption *on the thoughts and motives of those who visit this display or wear a poppy.

Whilst you may find it convenient to your argument to do this please do not suggest that I or others have entered this debate without first researching.
		
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I am not suggesting that you have not researched the issue - but I have certainly heard quite a lot of voices elsewhere criticising the article on the basis of what they *think* has been written.

Two weeks ago we visited Tyne Cot Cemetery at Passchendaele where there were an estimated 860,000 German and UK and Commonwealth casualties (killed, injured and missing). And although this ToL installation may to some feel a bit 'superficial', 'obvious' or inward looking - it is very poignant for me in that with there being 880,000 poppies that's - for me - one poppy for each casualty from that one battlefield - and that makes that vast carpet of poppies awesome in the most moving way,

On a personal basis I have tried to instill an understanding of the Great War in my children by making it personal to them.  So whilst they were taught about it at school - and my daughter went a school trip to Ypres - they have used in their projects the photo we have of my grandfather in uniform and mounted on his horse in France in 1914 and talked to them of where he served and what happened to him (he was in the Scottish Horse - the mounted regiment of the Black Watch).  They've also read the letter a mate sent to him from the trenches towards the end of the war - my grandfather was recuperating in hospital back in Perthshire (having been gassed).  We also took them to the French National War Memorial at Verdun - and that has certainly stuck in the minds.

Hopefully through that we have managed to pass on the understanding of what happened back then - and that has been happening since that war that didn't end all wars.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2014)

TOL - Tower of London I presume.

I heard about the poppies at the Tower at its inception. Seemed like a great idea to me. As they have developed and spread I still think that. They are going to be sold for Â£25 each, proceeds to British Legion. Win win. 

It works, to me, as both art and part of the Remberance. That people are taking selfies with it is just how modern life is. I don't get the selfie thing, a bit narcissistic for me, but it keeps a lot of people happy and it is not going to change so we just have to accept it. That this thread has been going on for so long suggests that this display has worked, it is getting people talking about the subject matter. Personally I find it very moving.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Two weeks ago we visited Tyne Cot Cemetery at Passchendaele where there were an estimated 860,000 German and UK and Commonwealth casualties (killed, injured and missing). And although this ToL installation may to some feel a bit 'superficial', 'obvious' or inward looking - it is very poignant for me in that with there being 880,000 poppies that's - for me - one poppy for each casualty from that one battlefield - and that makes that vast carpet of poppies awesome in the most moving way,

On a personal basis I have tried to instill an understanding of the Great War in my children by making it personal to them.  So whilst they were taught about it at school - and my daughter went a school trip to Ypres - they have used in their projects the photo we have of my grandfather in uniform and mounted on his horse in France in 1914 and talked to them of where he served and what happened to him (he was in the Scottish Horse - the mounted regiment of the Black Watch).  They've also read the letter a mate sent to him from the trenches towards the end of the war - my grandfather was recuperating in hospital back in Perthshire (having been gassed).  We also took them to the French National War Memorial at Verdun - and that has certainly stuck in the minds.

Hopefully through that we have managed to pass on the understanding of what happened back then - and that has been happening since that war that didn't end all wars.
		
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Very similar story, we visited Ypres and Tyne Cot 16 years ago with our two sons the elder of whom was, at that time nearly 16 so only weeks or months younger than some whose deaths were remembered there. When they realised that it certainly brought it home to them.

Two hulking great sports mad teenagers suddenly deep in thought and later full of questions. Now the younger one is, as I said, a teacher trying to explain the futility of all such conflicts to 10 & 11 year olds and sometimes being amazed by the perceptiveness of their questions.

Most pertinently to us as a family was being able to visit the grave at Etaples of my great-uncle with my mother, then aged 80, thus enabling her to fulfill a promise she made to her grandmother in the late 1920's as "Grannie Shaw" a poor working-class Brummie was never likely to be able to see her son's grave.

Memories live on and hopefully parents and grandparents will continue to impress upon the young that war is not some game played on a computer but that it has a devastating effect upon the lives of all.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

I also noticed the other day that when I got a poppy from a seller that the 'standard' poppy and pin was just one of several things they now have on sale. There were wrist bands, lapel badges, mini wreaths and a few other things, some of which are obviously there to appeal to younger people. Which I thought was great as they are modernising a bit to engage the younger generation, whilst at the same time still having the traditional poppy if people wanted it.


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## Rooter (Oct 30, 2014)

Thought i would pop down there on my lunch break, see pics. couldnt believe how many people there were! never seen it so busy ever!!


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## CMAC (Oct 30, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Thought i would pop down there on my lunch break, see pics. couldnt believe how many people there were! never seen it so busy ever!!

View attachment 12751
View attachment 12752

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is that today or on opening day?


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:





To be fair, I thought the TOL were very clear that this was a piece of artwork but with more solemn undertones connected with the act of remembrance. As someone else said, if the artwork, memorial or whatever label you want to tag on it promotes these busloads of Japanese, European and American tourists (and those from other parts of the world) to spend a few seconds contemplating wars across the globe from WW1 onwards then surely it's done what it set out to do
		
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I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

Val said:



			I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.
		
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Why is that sad?


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Why is that sad?
		
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Because it shouldn't be a visitor attraction in the same mould as those I mentioned.


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## Rooter (Oct 30, 2014)

CMAC said:



			is that today or on opening day?
		
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That was today lunchtime. it was rammed, and guy in the office comes over tower bridge on his way to work and says its been like that for weeks. every day its rammed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Val said:



			I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.
		
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Absolutely with you on that Val.  Inevitable I suppose.  But sad nontheless.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely with you on that Val.  Inevitable I suppose.  But sad nontheless.
		
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But isn't there a bigger picture in that tens or hundreds of thousands of people are being made aware of what the poppies represent. 

 I am sure there will be some who turn up and have absolutely no idea what they represent, but the vast majority will, just out of curiosity if nothing else.  And even if they do treat it as a tourist attraction, they are still seeing poppies that mean something and it will cause them to think. It is raising awareness of the poppies and what they mean and this is especially important for the younger generations. And if it becomes a tourist attraction then so what, you could argue that is good as more people will see them. And surely that is a reason to be cheerful and not sad?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2014)

HK - Agreed. Only good, very inspiring.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

When I was there


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## North Mimms (Oct 30, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with viewing it purely as a stunning Art Installation.
But there is more to it than that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When I was there 

View attachment 12753


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I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.  

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not?  You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.


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## Rooter (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.  

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not?  You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.
		
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Because i do not follow a religion, don't need to be religious to respect the soldiers (et all) who paid the ultimate price.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.  

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not?  You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.
		
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A picture will never do its full justice - it doesn't capture the emotion of the area 

It gave me a tear in my eye 

And believe church has nothing to do with and shouldn't be a part of this discussion


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But isn't there a bigger picture in that tens or hundreds of thousands of people are being made aware of what the poppies represent. 

 I am sure there will be some who turn up and have absolutely no idea what they represent, but the vast majority will, just out of curiosity if nothing else.  And even if they do treat it as a tourist attraction, they are still seeing poppies that mean something and it will cause them to think. It is raising awareness of the poppies and what they mean and this is especially important for the younger generations. And if it becomes a tourist attraction then so what, you could argue that is good as more people will see them. And surely that is a reason to be cheerful and not sad?
		
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Im unsure if you miss my point or choose to ignore it. 

First and foremost the poppy display should be all about remembering the fallen in all wars, I have to say it looks amazing and agree it that it should help educate those who chose to be educated on the great war and subsequent wars that followed BUT for me once it becomes a visitors attraction the remembrance side is quickly forgotten and you will get many people who will visit just to see the display and have no thought about what it represents and that for me is sad.


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## bluewolf (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not?  You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.
		
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I will not be going into a Church on remembrance Sunday as I'm not a hypocrite. I am not religious in the slightest. I didn't get married in a Church. My Children are not Christened. My Funeral will be a Humanist affair..

Instead,  I will be paying tribute at the village War Memorial. I will be sparing a moment for all those lost in War. I will be paying a personal tribute to both my Grandfathers who fought on opposite sides of WW2. I will be remembering all those on both sides of the conflicts who lost their lives. 

I have no issue with the ToL installation. I can see both sides of the argument. In my opinion, the fact that they've decided to use a specific number of Poppies to pay remembrance to those who lost their life on only one side means that it isn't a place that allows me to pay my fullest respects to my relatives. It does however, bring a beautiful scene into everyone's consciousness. If that makes people stop for a second and think about the particular futility of War, then it's served it's purpose..


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## Ethan (Oct 30, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			In post #40 you attempted to place in context the offending article.

You then proceeded to attempt to justify the journalist's comments by suggesting that his point may have been too subtle for many to understand.

That form of assumed intellectual superiority is both smug and futile since once it is identified it weakens any further arguments from the source.
		
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You said:

"And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies."

I didn't say any such thing. In fact the point I was thinking of was more about the horror of war and the supply of cannon and trench fodder on all sides, with what seems like scant regard for human life by politicians painting a picture of a glorious struggle when the truth was terrible conditions, disease and starvation, poor medical facilities and execution of soldiers with what we now recognise as shell shock or PTSD. 

Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfried Owen probably described it pretty well.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			In fact the point I was thinking of was more about the horror of war and the supply of cannon and trench fodder on all sides, with what seems like scant regard for human life by politicians painting a picture of a glorious struggle when the truth was terrible conditions, disease and starvation, poor medical facilities and execution of soldiers with what we now recognise as shell shock or PTSD. 

Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfried Owen probably described it pretty well.
		
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I think it best that we leave aside the other issue regarding tone since, as I have already said, it was not my intention to launch a personal attack and I might have been better advised to delay my remarks until a time when my emotions were more stable. 

I had just returned from visiting the display at the Tower and was still raw from the reminder of just what each of the poppies represent.

Hopefully my subsequent remarks have shown that my concern is not just for the fallen amongst British forces but also for those of all nations involved in any war and for those that they left behind. Sadly mankind still struggles to learn from the lessons of the past.

You mention those that were executed for so called cowardice and I remember that one of the most moving memorials at the National Arboretum is to those Shot At Dawn. If nothing else we are, nowadays, more understanding of PTSD and its effects.

Also your post refers to Sassoon and his poetry, yet his early war writings were of a more jingoistic  tone. Sad that he should then have to experience what he did which, of course, determined his later works.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

Val said:



			Im unsure if you miss my point or choose to ignore it. 

First and foremost the poppy display should be all about remembering the fallen in all wars, I have to say it looks amazing and agree it that it should help educate those who chose to be educated on the great war and subsequent wars that followed BUT for me once it becomes a visitors attraction the remembrance side is quickly forgotten and you will *get many people who will visit just to see the display and have no thought about what it represents *and that for me is sad.
		
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Perhaps I have a stronger faith in humanity and believe that everyone that visits will to some degree think about what it represents. From what I've heard from the people that have visited such as LP above, it is difficult not to.


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Perhaps I have a stronger faith in humanity and believe that everyone that visits will to some degree think about what it represents. From what I've heard from the people that have visited such as LP above, it is difficult not to.
		
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As much as I would love to share your optimism I'm a realist. As previously stated many will visit with the mind of remembrance but sadly many won't even give its meaning a second thought and will only be visiting because of how it looks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

Val said:



			As much as I would love to share your optimism I'm a realist. As previously stated many will visit with the mind of remembrance but sadly many won't even give its meaning a second thought and will only be visiting because of how it looks.
		
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From being there and witnessing peoples reactions whilst there are a lot of tourists there you can see clearly people reflecting , tourists asking questions , kids asking questions , people speaking to the military guys collecting on site and gaining information about the site and the meaning 

It's quite when being there people are taking in by it all and going by what I have seen most will understandibg the meaning


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A picture will never do its full justice - it doesn't capture the emotion of the area 

It gave me a tear in my eye 

And believe church has nothing to do with and shouldn't be a part of this discussion
		
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I actually asked about going to church for remembrance as we all do for other important occasions - baptisms, weddings and funerals.

When in the past and not that long ago it was the natural thing for a community to do on Remembrance Sunday as an act of remembrance.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

I believe most people understand what a terrible waste of life WW1 was as were many wars before and after.  My own opinion is that the display at the TOL is what it says on the can, it's helping charities and remembrance of the lost lives in a particular art form.   How some people decide to act or react to it is just the way it is, the way the cookie crumbles,each to their own.

I tend to reflect on the words in the song 'The Green Fields of France' at this time of year as for me it seems so poignant.  If it's not for you then thats fine.

[video=youtube;5GxLOenKHjE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GxLOenKHjE[/video]


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## Val (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			From being there and witnessing peoples reactions whilst there are a lot of tourists there you can see clearly people reflecting , tourists asking questions , kids asking questions , people speaking to the military guys collecting on site and gaining information about the site and the meaning 

It's quite when being there people are taking in by it all and going by what I have seen most will understandibg the meaning
		
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Glad to hear that


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe most people understand what a terrible waste of life WW1 was as were many wars before and after.  My own opinion is that the display at the TOL is what it says on the can, it's helping charities and remembrance of the lost lives in a particular art form.   How some people decide to act or react to it is just the way it is, the way the cookie crumbles,each to their own.

I tend to reflect on the words in the song 'The Green Fields of France' at this time of year as for me it seems so poignant.  If it's not for you then thats fine.

[video=youtube;5GxLOenKHjE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GxLOenKHjE[/video]
		
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Series 4 of Blackadder and the recent Horrible Histories special does much the same to me in getting over the futility of it all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Series 4 of Blackadder and the recent Horrible Histories special does much the same to me in getting over the futility of it all.
		
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The final episode in Blackadder is imo very moving and amongst all the comedy in the the four series went out in a perfect ending which imo opened a few hearts and eyes. 

I actually enjoy Facebook at this time of year as there is so many moving and wonderful poems and stories written by people and lovely pictures


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## c1973 (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The final episode in Blackadder is imo very moving and amongst all the comedy in the the four series went out in a perfect ending which imo opened a few hearts and eyes. *

I actually enjoy Facebook at this time of year as there is so many moving and wonderful poems and stories written by people and lovely pictures
		
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Couldn't agree more. 



I'd quite like to see the installation from an artistic point of view, it won't happen though as I wouldn't travel that far to view it,which is a pity. 

I'm not sure anyone viewing it would be unaware of the significance of it which can only be a good thing.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The final episode in Blackadder is imo very moving and amongst all the comedy in the the four series went out in a perfect ending which imo opened a few hearts and eyes. 

I actually enjoy Facebook at this time of year as there is so many moving and wonderful poems and stories written by people and lovely pictures
		
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Just down the road from me is a village called Dymock (has a nice little golf course).   It is well known for the Dymock Poets who wrote some of the famous poems around the time of WW1.  'The Soldier' by Rupert Brooke being one of the better known ones.


If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.

And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Just down the road from me is a village called Dymock (has a nice little golf course).   It is well known for the Dymock Poets who wrote some of the famous poems around the time of WW1.  'The Soldier' by Rupert Brooke being one of the better known ones.


If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.

And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.
		
Click to expand...

That was read out at Westminster Abbey one year


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I actually asked about going to church for remembrance as we all do for other important occasions - baptisms, weddings and funerals.

When in the past and not that long ago it was the natural thing for a community to do on Remembrance Sunday as an act of remembrance.
		
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What are you on about. Most remembrance services are held outside at local war memorials with very little religious significance.


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

For anyone interested in the documentation of WWI 'Up the Line to Death' is a great anthology which captures the joviulistic atmosphere at the start of the war and how morale deteriorated over the years.

Good reading for anyone interested!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

LanDog said:



			For anyone interested in the documentation of WWI 'Up the Line to Death' is a great anthology which captures the joviulistic atmosphere at the start of the war and how morale deteriorated over the years.

Good reading for anyone interested!
		
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Thanks.  Sounds interesting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

Welcome Break ban people selling poppies 

They want to support Children in Need - 

Didn't realise you had to choose

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/528656/Boycott-motorway-services-who-banned-poppy-sales


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Welcome Break ban people selling poppies 

They want to support Children in Need - 

Didn't realise you had to choose

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/528656/Boycott-motorway-services-who-banned-poppy-sales

Click to expand...

Welcome Break said it continues to support the Poppy Appeal.
Last night the Royal British Legion moved to defuse the row.
A statement said: "The Royal British Legion's Poppy Appeal is pleased, once again, to be working with Welcome Break at its many locations across the UK during this year's appeal.
"The Legion is grateful for the support that Welcome Break is providing to the Poppy Appeal, including permission to collect on site, and the Legion also understands that their chosen charity Children in Need will at times receive priority.
"The Legion is always grateful for the support that it receives from corporate enterprises and recognises that any organisation or individual has the right to choose which charities to support.
"The Legion respects and admires the support that Welcome Break gives to Children in Need as their chosen charity, and is also grateful for their support it gives to the Poppy Appeal."


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks.  Sounds interesting.
		
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Brian Gardner is the editor of it, just so you know who to look out for. :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2014)

LanDog said:



			Brian Gardner is the editor of it, just so you know who to look out for. :thup:
		
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Thank you, after a good read right now.


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

I'm not very well read when it comes to Poppy's so correct me if I'm wrong here, but they are to honour all the fallen of what wars? Is it WWI & II only? 
Is it every British war? 
Do they show respect to both sides on every war? 
It's commissioned by the Royal British Legion, yes? Does that mean the funds raised only go toward British military?
If it's ok for an Irish guy to wear one to show respect for the fallen irish in WWI is there any point when there is no money going towards them? or is there?! 

The problem I can see with it in Northern Ireland is that some people use it as a tool to antagonise the other half of society, due to the British link, much in the same way people will wear the Easter lily


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

Used to commentate soldiers who have died in war 

Inspired by a poem called Flanders Field which was inspired due to poppies starting to grow on the graves of soliders in the first world war in an area called Flander in Belgium

Money raised goes to help veterans , forces families etc


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Used to commentate soldiers who have died in war 

Inspired by a poem called Flanders Field which was inspired due to poppies starting to grow on the graves of soliders in the first world war in an area called Flander in Belgium

Money raised goes to help veterans , forces families etc
		
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I'm aware of all that, but what soldiers? The proceeds only go to British soldiers so it's to commemorate the British soldiers then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

LanDog said:



			I'm aware of all that, but what soldiers? The proceeds only go to British soldiers so it's to commemorate the British soldiers then?
		
Click to expand...

In Britian yes and if raised by British legion then yes but they aren't they aren't the only organisation or country using the poppy as a Remeberance for people


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In Britian yes and if raised by British legion then yes but they aren't they aren't the only organisation or country using the poppy as a Remeberance for people
		
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Not that many though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15637074


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In Britian yes and if raised by British legion then yes but they aren't they aren't the only organisation or country using the poppy as a Remeberance for people
		
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That's more of an answer I was looking for! What other organisations use the poppy and where do their proceeds go?


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Not that many though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15637074

Click to expand...

Oh sorry, so all the money from those countries goes back to the British Legion?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2014)

LanDog said:



			That's more of an answer I was looking for! What other organisations use the poppy and where do their proceeds go?
		
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Mainly the allies

USA 
Canada
Australia

RBL branch out into France , Belguim , Malta , Cyprus 

Understand they have an office in ROI and its used to remember the troops from the Republic and money goes to their families


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## LanDog (Oct 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mainly the allies

USA 
Canada
Australia

RBL branch out into France , Belguim , Malta , Cyprus 

Understand they have an office in ROI and its used to remember the troops from the Republic and money goes to their families
		
Click to expand...

That's my questions answered thank you phil! :thup:

(Amazing that a discussion on the forum didn't end in a spat and a ban)!


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2014)

One thing that's not been mentioned re the poppy display at the TOL and whether it is art/the significance being lost etc etc. is that this year is the 100 anniversary of the start of First WW. The poppy display at the TOL is one of many many events which are being held throughout the country re the start of the First World War.

The TOL has the poppy display, Nottingham has the Trent to Trenches display. All designed to highlight the 100th anniversary of the war. me I have donated two x artillery shells from the war which stand 2 ft tall and are impressivley inscribed  with "trench art".


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## Slab (Oct 31, 2014)

That's twice in a few days that the British legion have had to come out with official statements to address social media activity from shall we say 'passionate or over zealous' volunteers

Some care required going forward I think


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2014)

Lovely pic from Edinburgh castle


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## North Mimms (Oct 31, 2014)

LanDog said:



			Oh sorry, so all the money from those countries goes back to the British Legion?
		
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I assume that the Canadian Legion supports Canadian soldiers


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## North Mimms (Oct 31, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Not that many though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15637074

Click to expand...

Interesting that the Poppy symbol was first adopted by an American in response to a Canadian poem


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			What are you on about. Most remembrance services are held outside at local war memorials with very little religious significance.
		
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I am not saying that they aren't - though mostly there will be some religious aspect.  I only asked whether or not folk bother going to their local parish church - or whatever - as they will have a remembrance service.  Clearly most don't.  I'm not on about anything.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not saying that they aren't - though mostly there will be some religious aspect.  I only asked whether or not folk bother going to their local parish church - or whatever - as they will have a remembrance service.  Clearly most don't.  I'm not on about anything.
		
Click to expand...


Please please do not turn this great thread into a discussion about church and religion - this is about Remeberance


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please please do not turn this great thread into a discussion about church and religion - this is about Remeberance
		
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I'm not.  This is absolutely about remembrance.  Was just wondering if many non-church goers went to church on Remembrance Sunday as it is a special day, in the way that non church-goers go for other special family occasions and how many will go to church for midnight Christmas Service.  Just wondering. It seems not. I'm not bothered.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

LanDog said:



			I'm aware of all that, but what soldiers? The proceeds only go to British soldiers so it's to commemorate the British soldiers then?
		
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This will give you fuller explination

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/can-we-help/eligibility-for-support


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

The TOL display and the poppy appeal are one of the only ways that the RBL, who support SSAFA and many other organisations, to raise the significant funds required to assist those serving and veterans.  Due to the upsurge of new forces charities who do not allow their funds to be used for vets prior to 2001 their resources are becoming strained, and as you can imagine, there are many who still need large amounts of support.

Although the poppy is a sign of rememberance it is also a way to get some much needed finances into a very stretched organisation.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Used to commentate soldiers who have died in war
		
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Conflict


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Conflict
		
Click to expand...


Nothing beats a bit pedentary on a Friday morning


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

Slab said:



			That's twice in a few days that the British legion have had to come out with official statements to address social media activity from shall we say 'passionate or over zealous' volunteers

Some care required going forward I think
		
Click to expand...

This is popping up every year. The RBL agreed with themajority of other well known major charities that they would only go for the"hard sell" in the couple of weeks leading up to Remembrance Sundayin the hope that the other charities, which in general they have, leave thefield free for the RBL. Unfortunately know, a number of large celebrity backedcharities have major fund raising events at the same time.

Unfortunate but something TRBL will have to learn to live with.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing beats a bit pedentary on a Friday morning 

Click to expand...


Sorry, just a statement of fact due to the interest shown by some.  You and I know that some wars will never be acknowledged as a war and will only go down as a conflict.


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## Val (Oct 31, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Sorry, just a statement of fact due to the interest shown by some.  *You and I know that some wars will never be acknowledged as a war and will only go down as a conflict*.
		
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Very true, call it what you like but the troubles in NI was a war, a war with the IRA that lasted a very long time, not everyones take on it but when all is said and done it's true, and for the record im not wishing to start a debate on the NI troubles.

The Falklands was known as a conflict at the time but as time passes people recognise it as war.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Sorry, just a statement of fact due to the interest shown by some.  You and I know that some wars will never be acknowledged as a war and will only go down as a conflict.
		
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Over time ever conflict gets called a war- even the Falklands is now called a War


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 31, 2014)

Even the first campaign in Iraq started as a conflict and soon became "war". To be honest call it whatever you like but wherever and whenever service personnel are killed in the line of duty there should be some mark of rememberance, less the fact we have the luxuries of freedom of speech etc today


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Over time ever conflict gets called a war- even the Falklands is now called a War
		
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In the same as asking SILH not to bring religion into it, surely discussing what is war vs conflicts etc could start a similar debate that takes away from the Remembrance theme... (not aimed at you Phil, but you're the last post on it)


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## Val (Oct 31, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			In the same as asking SILH not to bring religion into it, surely discussing what is war vs conflicts etc could start a similar debate that takes away from the Remembrance theme... (not aimed at you Phil, but you're the last post on it)
		
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To be fair, I think it originated from remembering the fallen at conflicts as well as wars thats all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2014)

Val said:



			To be fair, I think it originated from remembering the fallen at conflicts as well as wars thats all.
		
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And I was only asking whether many folks did their remembrance in churches rather than or in addition to ceremonies at war memorials. I personally think that there is something very special about a Remembrance Sunday church service - it is always very thought-provoking with much less of your run-of-the-mill religious stuff that put off so many.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Over time ever conflict gets called a war- even the Falklands is now called a War
		
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Well since the end of the 2nd WW at least one member of the armed forces has been killed in action every year since bar one perhaps you can enlighten the forum which campaigns/conflicts have now become wars.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

TOL

If you are planning to go this weekend (along with many, many others) take careful note and plan accordingly:

_"This weekend (Saturday 1 and Sunday 2 November) large numbers of people are expected to visit the Tower of London's major art installation Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red, marking 100 years since the first full day of Britain's involvement in the First World War.

There will be no Tube services to Tower Hill station all weekend due to District line improvement work and surrounding stations are likely to be busier than usual

There will be no service on the District line this weekend between South Kensington and Aldgate East,

There will be no service on the Circle line this weekend between Gloucester Road and Aldgate (via Victoria). Trains will operate between Hammersmith and Aldgate (via King's Cross St. Pancras), and between Edgware Road and Gloucester Road (via High Street Kensington). This is to allow for station improvement work at Victoria and also track and drainage replacement work at Embankment â€œ

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tower-of-london-remembers?intcmp=23153

You have been warned. 
_


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 31, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I was only asking whether many folks did their remembrance in churches rather than or in addition to ceremonies at war memorials. I personally think that there is something very special about a Remembrance Sunday church service - it is always very thought-provoking with much less of your run-of-the-mill religious stuff that put off so many.
		
Click to expand...

Without wanting to provoke a religion discussion, I think that many are put off going to church, especially for this type of service because they aren't necessarily religious, not a practicing memebr of the faith of the church etc. Again from a personal perspective if I was going to pay my respects, I'd probably find the local ceremony in my home town (usually at the war memorial) and go along to that. These tend to be far less religious in nature and still gives those that want to spend some time reflecting and remebering the opportunity to do so


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## GB72 (Oct 31, 2014)

I am not especially religious but I do attend a rememberance Sunday sermon every year. I think that it is a suitably solemn and reverend place to spend some time in peaceful thought and rememberance. It is not as if they try and sign you up for a weekly attendance when you go or comment that you are not a frequent attender. I used to love going to Fulmer church when I was a kid and used to spend the whole sermon looking at the plack for my Grandfathers brother that was in the church. 

I am pleased to say that my brother has brought up his son in a similar veign and even at age 10 he is proud that he goes to church on rememberance sunday. At least that is one person from the next generation who will understand the sacrifice and ensure that we never forget.


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## DCB (Oct 31, 2014)

Two years ago my family went over to Belgium and France to go round the WW1 battlefields. We did some research before they went into a relative of mine who had signed up in Nov 1914 to the 16th Btn Royal Scots. Through some careful research we managed to build a good picture of what he did before he joined up and what his training entailed until he eventually set off for France in Jan1916.
He was killed in late August 1916, having survived the initial stages of the Battle of the Somme, he was wounded, treated, allowed time to recover before going back into the Line in mid Aug 1916. There were conflicting accounts of where he eventually died, but it seems his life was cut short during action in mid August and he died of his wounds. 

Having researched all this, it was a rather subdued and sombre group who visited the cemetery where he is buried near Albert. A sprig of heather was planted and a poppy cross tucked in beside his gravestone. When you see how someone in your family lived and died and you've seen their name on a gravestone, it makes it all so real.

My daughter was back to the same place on a school trip back in June. Being able to tell that one of her family was laid to rest in the cemetery they were visiting, seemed to suddenly hit some of her friends.

We must remember them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Well since the end of the 2nd WW at least one member of the armed forces has been killed in action every year since bar one perhaps you can enlighten the forum which campaigns/conflicts have now become wars.
		
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As someone has already said its not a discussion about what is a war or a conflict etc etc

Just as it's not about religion or church 

My ex WO is there today again collecting money for RBL - been an incident with a couple guys from Middle East and small protests


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As someone has already said its not a discussion about what is a war or a conflict etc etc
		
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Sorry, just trying to sort something you posted. I presume you would be able to clarify it in the way you insist other posters do in other threads.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I am not especially religious but I do attend a rememberance Sunday sermon every year. I think that it is a suitably solemn and reverend place to spend some time in peaceful thought and rememberance. It is not as if they try and sign you up for a weekly attendance when you go or comment that you are not a frequent attender. I used to love going to Fulmer church when I was a kid and used to spend the whole sermon looking at the plack for my Grandfathers brother that was in the church. 

I am pleased to say that my brother has brought up his son in a similar veign and even at age 10 he is proud that he goes to church on rememberance sunday. At least that is one person from the next generation who will understand the sacrifice and ensure that we never forget.
		
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That's it!  I think that many who go to a Christmas Midnight service and enjoy it for what it is given when it is, and so are happy to go through the doors of a church even for just that once a year - would find a Remembrance Sunday service similar though obviously much more solemn and respectful.   

They have been part of my life - from when as a scout I'd be in the flag party and carry one of the troop flags (union jack and saltire with scout emblem and troop number if I recall) from the scout hall to church then up the aisle at the start of the service to stand at the front.  Then when congregation started to sing the hymn 'Oh God our help in ages past' myself and the other flag bearer would face each other and slowly lower the flags for the minutes silence.  As a 13/14yr old I found that very moving and I recall that all of the congregation did also.

That's where I'm coming from so you'll understand why I ask about whether folks go to church on that day or not.


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## guest100718 (Nov 1, 2014)

Snipped from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29861969

Although it's very busy there is a low friendly murmur here rather than the usual crowd noise, as people reflect on the meaning of the installation as well as taking photos and selfies.


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## chrisd (Nov 1, 2014)

HID and I had a coach trip today, booked ages back, to see the Houses of Parliament which was fabulous. Afterwards we went down the river by boat to look at the poppies, we were staggered by the numbers there and just how wonderful they are!

I don't want to add any more than reiterate just how wonderful they are


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 1, 2014)

Unless you see them in situ, the pictures don't really do them justice


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## guest100718 (Nov 1, 2014)

I work 10 mins walk away and will pop down early a couple more times.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2014)

Looks like the guys raising money today broke their record from last year for one day - over Â£1mil from the streets of London 

Fantastic generosity


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Looks like the guys raising money today broke their record from last year for one day - over Â£1mil from the streets of London 

Fantastic generosity
		
Click to expand...

Without being provocative, I wonder how much that has come about from the poppies at the Tower. It has been so much in the public perception along with the huge media attention throughout the year on the hundred years from the start of the first world war that people are far more aware of the poppy appeal this year. Indeed going around Reading there seems far more poppy's available to buy from various outlets


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2014)

They had over a million in one day last year also without the display 

When collecting in the past years around the country the poppy appeal has always been very much in forefront of people's minds


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 1, 2014)

I'm just saying that the media coverage for the centenary and the Tower display has made it even more visible and the public seem much more aware this year. I know the fantastic job the collectors do and I'm not knocking the selfless work the collectors do each and every year. My point is that the appeal seems to have been given a boost (rightly) thanks to the poppies and the centenary.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2014)

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/upd...uffers-burns-in-attack-after-selling-poppies/


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2014)




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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2014)




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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 12780

Click to expand...

And I say again, it's pictures like this that is doing so much to make the public aware of the poppy appeal and remembering fallen victims, not just of WW1. Sometimes, it takes an event like this to prick consciousness again. I contribute annually but there are many more that don't. If this display has led to youngsters and others to start thinking and contributing next year and onwards it's done the job


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2014)

My Dad has his leg blown to pieces in Burma during WW2, he was a Professional Soldier at the start of the war but was thrown on the scrap heap at the end, unable to work and with next to nothing in assistance from the state my parents lived in abject poverty.  I remember the help he received at times from the British Legion and SSAFA, they helped him get a job with Remploy which gave him back a means of supporting his family and some self respect.

Supporting these organisations can help make a great difference to peoples lives.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 2, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			My Dad has his leg blown to pieces in Burma during WW2, he was a Professional Soldier at the start of the war but was thrown on the scrap heap at the end, unable to work and with next to nothing in assistance from the state my parents lived in abject poverty.  I remember the help he received at times from the British Legion and SSAFA, they helped him get a job with Remploy which gave him back a means of supporting his family and some self respect.

Supporting these organisations can help make a great difference to peoples lives.
		
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Thanks for posting and sharing. Shows what the appeal can do and why we need to ensure that the enhanced popularity and publicity is gendered into a prolonged increase in sales and that younger people continue to get involved


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## Piece (Nov 3, 2014)

At Watford on Sat: 

http://youtu.be/G-TvE-4YrBA


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## Rooter (Nov 3, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Watford on Sat: 

http://youtu.be/G-TvE-4YrBA

Click to expand...

we so need a 'like' button!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 3, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Watford on Sat: 

http://youtu.be/G-TvE-4YrBA

Click to expand...




Rooter said:



			we so need a 'like' button!
		
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:thup:


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2014)

And more dosh is raised from auctions held selling of the shirts. It's the only way they can compete with the more celeb charities like H4H.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2014)

Just got mine out of the drawer,15 years old now:lol:


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## North Mimms (Nov 4, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Watford on Sat: 

http://youtu.be/G-TvE-4YrBA

Click to expand...

Better than the pre-match stabbing that took place in Market Street just before the match.
Note to self- do not go into Watford on match days. Got stuck in my parking space, blocked off by police cars and ambulances.
Hope victim is ok


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## North Mimms (Nov 4, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just got mine out of the drawer,15 years old now:lol:
		
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You might need to freshen it up with a felt tip and a bit of spray starch!


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just got mine out of the drawer,15 years old now:lol:
		
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Gone fishing :clap:


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres.
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain,
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.


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## c1973 (Nov 9, 2014)

https://metro.co.uk/2014/11/08/glas...-against-falkirk-for-remembrance-day-4940434/

Lest we forget.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2014)

:thup:


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## rickg (Nov 21, 2014)

Nice Phil!! Hope mine turns up soon! :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2014)

rickg said:



			Nice Phil!! Hope mine turns up soon! :thup:
		
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My mums turned up yesterday but my Brothers hasnt yet - but they are expecting them all to arrive within the next 7 days


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## rickg (Nov 21, 2014)

I've had the email to say mines been picked so suspect it will be anytime soon.....just got to decide where to put it........it's in memory of my great grandad who died in WW1 aged 21.... His 2 brothers were also killed....so sad.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2014)

rickg said:



			I've had the email to say mines been picked so suspect it will be anytime soon.....just got to decide where to put it........it's in memory of my great grandad who died in WW1 aged 21.... His 2 brothers were also killed....so sad.....
		
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That is very sad Rick 

When i was chatting to one of the British Legion guys they reckon that 70% of currently ethnic British people would be able to trace back to a family member who passed away during both the wars.


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## North Mimms (Nov 22, 2014)

I think the empty muddy moat is a fitting finale to this installation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30100926


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2014)

Volunteers are tackling it faster than originally thought.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2014)

Â£15mil is an amazing amount of money raised for the Charities


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2014)

HID had an email saying hers aren't due for delivery until January. She won't be happy if she sees this.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID had an email saying hers aren't due for delivery until January. She won't be happy if she sees this.
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few won't be ready before end of Jan. The recovery is all done by volunteers.


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