# Tending Flag



## Dellboy (Jan 19, 2012)

Hi,

    Was playing yesterday morning when my friend who was *just off the green*, asked for the flag to be tended, he then thinned his chip. 

Before it reached the hole / flag he shouted "leave it in", so I did, ball ended up off the green on the other side not hitting the flag or any part of the green  

But the third player in our group said " I should have not left the flag in as he asked for it to be tended so when the balls gets near I should have removed it "

Was I right to do as asked by the player or once the ball was on its way should I have removed it all together ??

Cheers

Del


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## DavidO (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm no expert, so I'll be watching for an answer on this, however, my tuppence worth is that you did nothing wrong.

You are only tending the flag, ready to remove it if the ball comes close??


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2012)

Player 3 is talking out of a particular hole that doesn't necessarily have a flag in it that needs tending.

If the person attending the flag failed to remove it during the movement of the ball and the ball hit the flagstick then the player would incur a 2 shot penalty in stoke play and loss of the hole in match play.

It does make me wonder where people get these crazy ideas from?


Chris


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## anotherdouble (Jan 19, 2012)

If player A is off the green I dont think he can request the flag to be tended. He either has it in or out. I expect I am wrong but thats where my sixpence would go


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## ADB (Jan 19, 2012)

anotherdouble said:



			If player A is off the green I dont think he can request the flag to be tended. He either has it in or out. I expect I am wrong but thats where my sixpence would go
		
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You can have the flag attended wherever you are on the hole, not just on the green

For example:

[video=youtube;aqKweki8Sxc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqKweki8Sxc&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLE51707D316E62B62[/video]

Oh, and Chris is correct.


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## SyR (Jan 19, 2012)

anotherdouble said:



			If player A is off the green I dont think he can request the flag to be tended. He either has it in or out. I expect I am wrong but thats where my sixpence would go
		
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As I understand, you can have the flag tended from the tee if you so wish. If the ball hits the flag after this request is made then a penalty is incurred.


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2012)

SyR said:



			As I understand, you can have the flag tended from the tee if you so wish. If the ball hits the flag after this request is made then a penalty is incurred.
		
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Spot on.


Chris


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## anotherdouble (Jan 19, 2012)

Cheers guys for the correction. Always amazes me that people will play a sport including me and not know the rules. But there again what chance have we got if the professionals even require rule officials to intervene at times. Once again many thanks guys.


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## coolhand (Jan 19, 2012)

More general question on this subject:

Why would you have the flag tended if you where off the green? You don't get penalised for hitting it and it improves your chances of chipping in as it stops a ball that's rolling too fast to drop.


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2012)

anotherdouble said:



			Cheers guys for the correction. Always amazes me that people will play a sport including me and not know the rules. But there again what chance have we got if the professionals even require rule officials to intervene at times. Once again many thanks guys.
		
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My point wasn't about you not knowing the rules as much as your pal, inventing a rule that sounds potty, doesn't exist, and being willing to penalise you for breaking it. 

Last year in a quarter final 4BBB match an eejit we were playing against tried to say I was out of a hole because I had (inadvertantly) played out of turn and was quite stroppy when I asked when had he made that particular rule up?



Chris


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## anotherdouble (Jan 19, 2012)

Chrisd i was not the OP and I never took it as you critizising me for not knowing the rules. It was me kicking my own backside for playing a game and not knowing the rules. I was just thanking you for putting me right.


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2012)

anotherdouble said:



			Chrisd i was not the OP and I never took it as you critizising me for not knowing the rules. It was me kicking my own backside for playing a game and not knowing the rules. I was just thanking you for putting me right.
		
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Sorry mate, Its an age thing and past lunchtime where I should be having my nap. 

Let's be honest though, most of us dont know half of the rules, its the ones who make them up that get on my t*ts


Chris


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## anotherdouble (Jan 19, 2012)

Touche that one pal


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## Alex1975 (Jan 19, 2012)

anotherdouble said:



			If player A is off the green I dont think he can request the flag to be tended. He either has it in or out. I expect I am wrong but thats where my sixpence would go
		
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Yep, surly this is correct, I mean tending I have no idea, but if the player is off the green he can have it in or out but only to be elected before the shot?!


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## TXL (Jan 19, 2012)

coolhand said:



			More general question on this subject:

Why would you have the flag tended if you where off the green? You don't get penalised for hitting it and it improves your chances of chipping in as it stops a ball that's rolling too fast to drop.
		
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I heard an interesting fact from last years tour where someone had recorded the number of shots taken from just off the green where the player had left the flag in and the number where the flag was removed. The pure numbers supported your comment.


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## CMAC (Jan 19, 2012)

snaphookwedge said:



			You can have the flag attended wherever you are on the hole, not just on the green

For example:

[video=youtube;aqKweki8Sxc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqKweki8Sxc&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLE51707D316E62B62[/video]
		
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now THAT is class!


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## Twire (Jan 19, 2012)

Dellboy said:



			Hi,

Was playing yesterday morning when my friend who was *just off the green*, asked for the flag to be tended, he then thinned his chip. 

Before it reached the hole / flag he shouted "leave it in", so I did, ball ended up off the green on the other side not hitting the flag or any part of the green  

But the third player in our group said " I should have not left the flag in as he asked for it to be tended so when the balls gets near I should have removed it "

Was I right to do as asked by the player or once the ball was on its way should I have removed it all together ??

Cheers

Del
		
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I would say your 3rd player was correct. As your mate had asked for it to be attended, he can't change his mind while the ball is moving.


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## Alex1975 (Jan 19, 2012)

Ah, watched the clip now, so once the person tending the flag sees the ball in the air he has to pull the flag, is that the deal?

So if you have asked someone to tend when you are off the green then they have really elected to have it out but want it in place to line the shot up?


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## bladeplayer (Jan 19, 2012)

I would have thought  in OR out,  one or the other , i didnt think you could change your mind after you hit it ,  but wouldnt be sure on this , if you notice Bones had the flag gone long before the ball thought of landing..


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			Ah, watched the clip now, so once the person tending the flag sees the ball in the air he has to pull the flag, is that the deal?
		
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Yes and no. The person tending does not need to remove the flag but if you hit the flag you will incur a penalty if he has left it in.

eg You are chipping and ask me to tend, you flub your chip and it's clearly not going to make it to the hole.... I light up a cigarette and laugh... and I never bother pulling the flag. Had you thinned it at me I'd have ripped the flag out and ran... just so you didn't hit the flag pole of course. Had you airmailled the green i'd have lit that same ciggy whilst watching it fly high above.


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## USER1999 (Jan 19, 2012)

I hate having the pin in when I chip. It makes the hole smaller, and the ball can ping off it and go anwhere. I almost never hole anything that hits the pin. If I run the ball over the hole, then at least I get to see how it runs out on the line of my next putt. If it pings off sideways, I haven't got a clue.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 19, 2012)

Depending on what the flags are made of, the ball hitting it can often bounce further away, than hitting the back of the cup which tends to cushion it more and slow it down. That is my view based on observation, not scientific investigation, so other people may prove me wrong. 

But I tend to like it out if it's a close one, and leave in if the chip's from a long way away.

The threshold for those distances is similar to the distances or conditions in which I'd have the pin attended or taken out when putting.


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## rosecott (Jan 19, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yes and no. The person tending does not need to remove the flag but if you hit the flag you will incur a penalty if he has left it in.
		
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Not necessarily so. 

If he deliberately fails to remove the flag in order to penalise the other player, the flag attendant is disqualfied.

If he fails to remove the flag in order to prevent the other player's ball from passing the hole, he loses the hole in matchplay and it's a 2-stroke penalty for both players in strokeplay.


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## ADB (Jan 19, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Not necessarily so. 

If he deliberately fails to remove the flag in order to penalise the other player, the flag attendant is disqualfied.

If he fails to remove the flag in order to prevent the other player's ball from passing the hole, he loses the hole in matchplay and it's a 2-stroke penalty for both players in strokeplay.
		
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What happens if the person attending the pin tries to remove the flag but fails to do so in time and subsequently the players ball hits the pin? Attendees fault or player penalised?


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## rosecott (Jan 19, 2012)

snaphookwedge said:



			What happens if the person attending the pin tries to remove the flag but fails to do so in time and subsequently the players ball hits the pin? Attendees fault or player penalised?
		
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Player only penalised.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 19, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Player only penalised.
		
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That would be hard to take if you had asked him/her to tend the flag wouldnt it ? just wondering how would it be the players fault ? if some one asks me to tend the flag i always lift the flag when i get to it & hold it loosely in the hole ..


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## Dreamer2 (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm learning rules of golf all the time , mostly the ones i remember are the ones i didn't know was a penalty like this thread,,so now i no :cheers:


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## Scottjd1 (Jan 19, 2012)

To be honest i didnt know that if the flag is tended, even if you are off the green, the instruction to tend means that the flagstick cannot be hit by the ball !

However my group generally play in that if we ask for it to be tended, as soon as the ball is struck the flag is removed so it would be unlikely to happen, good to know though !!


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Not necessarily so. 

If he deliberately fails to remove the flag in order to penalise the other player, the flag attendant is disqualfied.

If he fails to remove the flag in order to prevent the other player's ball from passing the hole, he loses the hole in matchplay and it's a 2-stroke penalty for both players in strokeplay.
		
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You havn't covered the other old chestnut - the player attending pull up the flagstick, the cup rises out of the ground stuck firm to the flagstick, and the ball hits the cup and, of course, the ball cannot drop in the hole?


Chris


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2012)

He also didn't cover the guy takes the flag out of the hole and throws it at the opponent like a javelin, I think that's as good as making the chip if it hits him


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## Pants (Jan 19, 2012)

chrisd said:



			the player attending pull up the flagstick, the cup rises out of the ground stuck firm to the flagstick, and the ball hits the cup and, of course, the ball cannot drop in the hole?


Chris
		
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This actually happened last year to a friend's wife in a county KO match against another club.

No-one, including the walking referee, knew the answer and they rang the R and A from the course.  Iirc the reply was - if the flagstick and attached liner is moving at the time the ball struck then there is no penalty as it is treated as an "outside agency", the stroke is cancelled and the shot replayed.  If the liner had stuck and the ball struck it then again no penalty but the next shot is played from where the ball comes to rest.

I think ....:mmm:


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## MashieNiblick (Jan 19, 2012)

chrisd said:



			You havn't covered the other old chestnut - the   player attending pull up the flagstick, the cup rises out of the ground   stuck firm to the flagstick, and the ball hits the cup and, of course,   the ball cannot drop in the hole?
		
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Pants said:



			This actually happened last year to a friend's wife in a county KO match against another club.

No-one, including the walking referee, knew the answer and they rang the R and A from the course.  Iirc the reply was - if the flagstick and attached liner is moving at the time the ball struck then there is no penalty as it is treated as an "outside agency", the stroke is cancelled and the shot replayed.  If the liner had stuck and the ball struck it then again no penalty but the next shot is played from where the ball comes to rest.

I think ....:mmm:
		
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Spot on. This has come up before.

_Decision 17/8 Ball Strikes Hole-Liner Pulled Out with Flagstick 

"Q.  A player played a stroke from the putting green. The ball struck the  hole-liner, which had stuck to the bottom of the flagstick and had come  out of the hole when the person attending the flagstick removed the  flagstick. Is there any penalty?

A. No. A hole-liner is an  outside agency. Accordingly, if the hole-liner was moving when the ball  struck it, the stroke is cancelled and the ball must be replaced â€“ Rule  19-1b. If the hole-liner was not moving, the ball must be played as it  lies â€“ Rule 19-1. In case of doubt, the ball must be played as it lies."_


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## richart (Jan 19, 2012)

SyR said:



			As I understand, you can have the flag tended from the tee if you so wish.
		
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Love to see you ask that in your fourball better ball at the weekend.

Do you have to attend the flag for someone when they are off the green ? I am not going to walk fifty yards up the course to attend the flag for some joker that is likely to thin it head height at me. Presumably you can have it attended when off the green if someone is prepared to do it ?


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## rosecott (Jan 19, 2012)

You can decline to attend the flagstick.


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## MashieNiblick (Jan 19, 2012)

richart said:



			Love to see you ask that in your fourball better ball at the weekend.

Do you have to attend the flag for someone when they are off the green ? I am not going to walk fifty yards up the course to attend the flag for some joker that is likely to thin it head height at me. Presumably you can have it attended when off the green if someone is prepared to do it ?
		
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Those R&A guys have thought of that

_Decision 17-1/2 Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Declines to Attend Flagstick

"Q. Does a player have any redress if he requests his opponent or a fellow-competitor to attend the flagstick for him and the opponent or fellow-competitor declines?

"A. No."_


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## richart (Jan 19, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Those R&A guys have thought of that

_Decision 17-1/2 Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Declines to Attend Flagstick

"Q. Does a player have any redress if he requests his opponent or a fellow-competitor to attend the flagstick for him and the opponent or fellow-competitor declines?

"A. No."_

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Thanks for that:whoooes the rule not come with any choice words that you can direct at your opponent Mashie ?


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## MashieNiblick (Jan 19, 2012)

richart said:



			Thanks for that:whoooes the rule not come with any choice words that you can direct at your opponent Mashie ?

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Not as far as I am aware, although I believe there is an accepted convention in such cases that reference is made to other places that the flag stick may be inserted.


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