# What's going to get us to leave the car.



## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2020)

If we need to cut down on using cars then we should be encouraged/forced into alternatives.  How can this be done?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2020)

How about restricting much of the on street parking on main roads and putting in cycle paths.

All new housing developments having compulsary cycle paths

Make more city streets pedestrian/bus/cycle only.


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## bobmac (Feb 9, 2020)

Some think the future is autonomous cars. (AC)
People won't actually own cars in the future, if they want to go somewhere they will just call an AC and the nearest one will drive to your position.
Just like a driverless taxi.
No need for car parks.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2020)

Park and ride schemes in cities with a hefty congestion charge for those who insist on driving in still. Widen out to the larger towns as well. There have to be alternatives methods to get in though, not just ban cars.

Somehow encourage car share schemes for commuting. 

Subsidised train travel, particularly for longer journeys.

New housing estates must have dedicated cycle lanes, as must new roads. Very hard to alter existing layouts as many roads are simply not wide enough to add extra lanes. Painting new lines without widening roads is not safe.

These are off the top of my head. Interested to hear other suggestions.


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## robinthehood (Feb 9, 2020)

Much better public transport , current rail service is a crock of shite.
Expensive 
Delayed 
Over crowded


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2020)

I guess us folk in rural areas could go back to using horse and cart.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Some think the future is autonomous cars. (AC)
People won't actually own cars in the future, if they want to go somewhere they will just call an AC and the nearest one will drive to your position.
Just like a driverless taxi.
No need for car parks.
		
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It's a Tomorrow's World idea. How many cars have to be replaced before this becomes reality? We also like having our own transport,  if we didn't then we would all be using taxis now.

It's a nice idea but i can't see it happening in the next 20 odd years at least.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2020)

Nothing will get us to leave the car in the present future for a long time - there will always be people who rely on the car to get them to places of work , holidays etc  - how for example would we get to a golf club without cars ? Public transport is not good enough as well as being far too expensive. There are millions who need to use a car to travel to work - I don’t see how that can be replaced


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## williamalex1 (Feb 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Some think the future is autonomous cars. (AC)
People won't actually own cars in the future, if they want to go somewhere they will just call an AC and the nearest one will drive to your position.
Just like a driverless taxi.
No need for car parks.
		
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Or DIY car ports


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## SatchFan (Feb 9, 2020)

It's a round trip of 30 minutes for my wife and I to go into town at a rough cost of £4 including parking. The bus alternative including walking to the bus stop would be a 1 hour 50 minute total travel time at a cost of nearly £9. No contest. Sorry, Greta.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 9, 2020)

One thing I saw on my round the world travels was electric scooters. They look fantastic. Environmentally friendly. A mile or two to work, what’s not to like. But I went to Hawaii, San Fran, Sydney, Brisbane and Singapore. The weather was nice. But would you want one here. Downside is they drive like bloody idiots both on the rd and pavements. They think they have the best of both worlds. Ironically I saw a news report the other day that they are illegal in the UK. Yet the government is looking at how to instigate them within the UK. From what I have seen it will take the carnage off the roads onto the pavement.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 9, 2020)

You can't.
Cars are needed to get around since the high street has been abandoned for out of town shopping. Public transport is over priced and too poorly run.


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## Imurg (Feb 9, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			One thing I saw on my round the world travels was electric scooters. They look fantastic. Environmentally friendly. A mile or two to work, what’s not to like. But I went to Hawaii, San Fran, Sydney, Brisbane and Singapore. The weather was nice. But would you want one here. Downside is they drive like bloody idiots both on the rd and pavements. They think they have the best of both worlds. Ironically I saw a news report the other day that they are illegal in the UK. Yet the government is looking at how to instigate them within the UK. From what I have seen it will take the carnage off the roads onto the pavement.
		
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Would be interesting getting the weekly shop home on one of those.....


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 9, 2020)

I could actually use the train on a number of days, and it wouldn't take much more than using the car.  But I'd still need a car at other times so I'd still own one, and the tax, insurance and maintenance will still cost me pretty much the same each year if I use the car or the train.  So it largely comes down to cost.  

Cost of petrol per day, £4 maximum, train fare per day, £10.  So £6 per day more to leave the car.  There's your answer.  I have to be on mileage to do certain aspects of my work, but this can be managed to limit it to certain days.

Incentise me so that it doesn't cost me money to to the better thing and I might.  But I'd also have to consider the track record of South West Trains staff striking over the wrong colour toilet paper, or whatever this week's moan is, and then the change to the train seems even less attractive.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Would be interesting getting the weekly shop home on one of those.....
		
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I think day to day you would manage. Would have to put a trailer on the back for the Friday big shop and the missis and four kids 😁


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 9, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			One thing I saw on my round the world travels was electric scooters. They look fantastic. Environmentally friendly. A mile or two to work, what’s not to like. But I went to Hawaii, San Fran, Sydney, Brisbane and Singapore. The weather was nice. But would you want one here. Downside is they drive like bloody idiots both on the rd and pavements. They think they have the best of both worlds. Ironically I saw a news report the other day that they are illegal in the UK. Yet the government is looking at how to instigate them within the UK. From what I have seen it will take the carnage off the roads onto the pavement.
		
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They are illegal on the road and pavement. You see them going into London every morning, in their dark clothes and no crash hat cutting up the traffic or nearly taking out pedestrians.
There has already been 1 death of a woman riding one in an incident with a lorry. They should be banned altogether, including their sale.


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## bobmac (Feb 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a Tomorrow's World idea. How many cars have to be replaced before this becomes reality? We also like having our own transport,  if we didn't then we would all be using taxis now.

It's a nice idea but i can't see it happening in the next 20 odd years at least.
		
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Not our generation because we like to have a car. 
But as I said, the future.
No initial outlay, insurance, tax, mot, servicing, cleaning, parking.
95% of private cars aren't used for 95% of the time


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## USER1999 (Feb 9, 2020)

People would need to work near to where they live, and not commute. Kids would need to go to their local nearest school.
Food can be delivered.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 9, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			They are illegal on the road and pavement. You see them going into London every morning, in their dark clothes and no crash hat cutting up the traffic or nearly taking out pedestrians.
There has already been 1 death of a woman riding one in an incident with a lorry. They should be banned altogether, including their sale.
		
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In and around Brisbane, Sydney. In fact everywhere I went in Oz the infrastructure is totally different. Take for example our footpaths In the UK. Wide enough for a pram and someone walking in the other direction.  But in Oz they are that wide plus the same width again for bikes, scooters skate boards etc. They have been purposely built that way. I get the feeling they will be allowed in the UK but will just have to “ fit in” with out current pavements etc.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2020)

I had to use the train to get to work last week for a course 

Normal drive at times we travel 45 mins to an hour

This journey 1 hour 45 mins door to door with spot on connections 

That's 2 hours a day wasted 

Cost of public transport zero

Cost of car obviously more but it's worth it for the time you save 

It's why I'm looking to make my work car a Nissan leaf .. yes their are questions over is the electric supplying them sustainable but if I switch to electric the gov can do what they can to improve their side 

Cost of travel will reduce without my time having to be taken up 

Especially when I leave for work at 5:15am now and get in around 6.. hour before I start and the night turns love it

I'd have to get train before that and be pushing 06:45.. wouldn't go down well


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## williamalex1 (Feb 9, 2020)

Car sharing might help a bit, I use to see the lack of it every morning, grid locked peak time motorway traffic and the majority of cars with only the driver, most were heading to the city centre.
There should be some sort of safe sharing system available


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Car sharing might help a bit, I use to see the lack of it every morning, grid locked peak time motorway traffic and the majority of cars with only the driver, most were heading to the city centre.
There should be some sort of safe sharing system available 

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Yes this is a very good point. If my mate and I are on shift together we car share . He only lives 10 mins away 

Think our record for car share is 3 of us at once. Makes it bit awkward in morning though when you get 2 good reliefs and one poor one. 2 people hanging about waiting for 3rd person to be taken off



murphthemog said:



			People would need to work near to where they live, and not commute. Kids would need to go to their local nearest school.
Food can be delivered.
		
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Kids nearest schools is achievable but working close to home would need the house marking to drop .. if I lived near work I'd need about 200k more for a house of the same size


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## Wabinez (Feb 9, 2020)

If public transport was more affordable, more reliable and more comfortable, I would use it for work.

alas, it’s not....so I drive!


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## pendodave (Feb 9, 2020)

We will leave it like Thelma and Louise, unfortunately...
There is a possibility that technology will make it just about carbon neutral enough to carry on as we are, but I doubt it.
Nothing on God's no longer green earth will ever put the genie back in the bottle. You couldn't make petrol expensive enough to stop the 4x4s driving 1/2 mile to school 4 times a day.


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## fundy (Feb 9, 2020)

Surely, at least initially, it should be about how the car isnt used for the easier local journeys (popping to the shops, dropping the kids at school etc) rather than being an all or nothing situation.

Planning, especially highways dept, town centre redevelopments, new build housing estates, infrastructure etc need to be part of a long term plan, whereas currently theyre more of an anything goes as the priority is building all the new houses we continually need and not worrying about the quality of developments or the problems were storing up with how bad a lot of recent new developments are (especially from community, infrastructure and transport perspectives)

A coherent long term plan is needed, sadly we live in a cycle of governments trying to stay/win power each 4/5 years rather than doing whats best for the country and people over a longer term. Certain things (environment, housing, infrastructure, travel, planning etc) really need to be taken outside the political agenda and agreed to by all parties for a protected period of at least a generation. 

If anything were going in the opposite direction with more short termism and sadly things are likely to get worse before they get better


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## Wolf (Feb 9, 2020)

The dropping of cars is a long way off for us unfortunately. Where we live the nearest train station is 6 miles away but doesn't run early enough for either myself or Mrs Wolf's early shifts where we start at 530. Bus is a no go as well as earliest bus is after 7am but then the buses coming back don't come back late enough. 

Transport links need to massively improve and be within affordable scope for people. 

In a non delivery are for food as well, we have no choice but to have 2 cars. Only way that would change is moving closer to city centre but that's more expensive housing costs and public transport would still be dearer daily than our fuel.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2020)

How much oil is there left. When I consider the number of cars in the world all running around with fuel in their tanks it boggles my mind when I consider the quantities.  If we dont reduce our consumption then at some time in the not so far future we will be forced to accept the consequences, its all good saying its expensive or time consuming to use alternatives to the car but we need to be planning and embracing the changes that will become necessary.

Would it not be better to start by reducing the need for cars in the inner cities and towns. Park and ride, better facilities for cycling, walking, public transport, drive to an out of town carpark and get on a tram/bus/hire bike for your final journey. How many meetings away from our workplace necessitate us to travel, surely modern communications make this less important.   OK there would need to be other considerations for goods deliveries but with consideration, planning and better infrastructure we could make a big difference.  Or we could stick our heads in the sand and say its all to difficult and let our children/grand children live with the consequences of our inaction.


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## IainP (Feb 9, 2020)

I'd leave the car when I can use a hover/flying/drone thingy 😉🙂


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Or we could stick our heads in the sand and say its all to difficult and let our children/grand children live with the consequences of our inaction.
		
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*''Offshore Wind *
The UK is the *world leader in offshore wind**,* with more installed capacity than any other country. Already, offshore wind powers the equivalent of 4.5 million homes annually and will generate over 10% of UK electricity by 2020.

The cost of new offshore wind has *fallen by 50%** since 2015 *and it is now one of the lowest cost options for new power in the UK –* cheaper than new gas and nuclear power.*

Between 2016 and 2021 nearly £19bn is being invested in offshore wind in the UK. This investment supports thousands of jobs across the UK in manufacturing, project development, construction and operations.''

There is massive investment going on all over the world in renewable energy so while oil and gas become more hard to find and therefore more expensive, renewable is growing every year therefor become cheaper and cleaner.
I think one area where people are sticking there heads in the sand is the rise in population.
Less people, less cars


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



*''Offshore Wind *
The UK is the *world leader in offshore wind**,* with more installed capacity than any other country. Already, offshore wind powers the equivalent of 4.5 million homes annually and will generate over 10% of UK electricity by 2020.

The cost of new offshore wind has *fallen by 50%** since 2015 *and it is now one of the lowest cost options for new power in the UK –* cheaper than new gas and nuclear power.*

Between 2016 and 2021 nearly £19bn is being invested in offshore wind in the UK. This investment supports thousands of jobs across the UK in manufacturing, project development, construction and operations.''

There is massive investment going on all over the world in renewable energy so while oil and gas become more hard to find and therefore more expensive, renewable is growing every year therefor become cheaper and cleaner.
I think one area where people are sticking there heads in the sand is the rise in population.
Less people, less cars
		
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Thats a relevant point Bob but its not enough, wind power is good but I dont think its going to be enough, if everyone had an electric car the demand would be way more than capacity.  Population is a concern though, I would suggest more renewables along with less car use.


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a relevant point Bob but its not enough, wind power is good but I dont think its going to be enough, if everyone had an electric car the demand would be way more than capacity.  Population is a concern though, I would suggest more renewables along with less car use.
		
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But it's not just wind power, there's solar, geothermal, tidal and nuclear.
As for not having enough for the demand............
Not everyone has an electric car so the demand isn't there yet.
But when more people buy electric cars, they will be charging them at night when demand on the grid is almost non existent and not everyone will charge every night.
I agree we're not there yet for everyone to have an electric car, there are still issues with range, cost and charging but oil and gas is running out so what's the alternative? Dirty, expensive, polluting, high maintenance petrol and diesel cars or cheap to run, clean and fun electric cars?
Plus, the improvements in battery technology will filter through into more common uses......Your iphone battery will last a week not a day. And your ipad and laptop, remote controls, tools, anything that has a battery will benefit.
It will take time I know which is why I said it's the future but how far in the future, sooner than a lot think.
Very exciting times.


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2020)

Will we ever stop using a car? The fuels will change but there'll still be a need to travel. The personal part of that journey might just be to a travel hub, along the lines of a park and ride. For those living in less densely populated areas would state owned taxis to the hub really work? They might wait an hour for that taxi... waiting times/journey times/convenience...

I drove up to the airport last year(1.5hrs), leaving the house at 8:30am, the majority of the journey being on a toll motorway. I saw 6 cars. Congestion and pollution aren't issue here.


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## GB72 (Feb 10, 2020)

As I live in a rural community, the car is the only option. There are no shops etc within walking distance and very little employment in the village itself. Busses are a couple of times a day and that is it. If you wanted me to stop using the car, I would need a bus into town and out again pretty much every hour as well as services that start early and finish late. That would just be the local runs. Would also need to be able to get to more major conurbations as well. That is never going to happen as the routes are just not economically viable and the bus companies have pretty much shut down all services except those that they have to provide to cater for the school runs. 

As for trains, just ridiculously expensive for even the shortest journey.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

This only random possible thought.  Change the age from which you can drive a car from 17 to 25 - unless you in a special class where driving is essential for your work and perhaps restricted to certain public services. 

In this way many more young folk have to get used to using public transport or taxis - and hence the demand for public transport increases and it becomes more available and market forces being equal - cheaper.  And if that age group get usefd to using public transport their need to own and use a car when they reach 25 reduces?  Maybe...

Got to change the culture and expectations around driving - very difficult to change people already driving.  Too many 16yr olds sit with their provisional licencing in expectation of being able to have a car when they are 17.  And once they get used to having that car from 17 a mindset is established that is very difficult to change.


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## pool888 (Feb 10, 2020)

I think the cost of public transport in this country is a big problem, who wants to use a service that's going to take longer and cost more. Whenever we're on holiday it always impresses us how quick and cheap the transport is compared to the UK. I remember coming into Gatwick few years ago and looking at the shock on foreign people's faces when they see the price of the Gatwick Express. Even as a solo traveler it's expensive, the cost for a family is out of the question, no wonder people find it cheaper and more convenient to have cars.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This only random possible thought.  Change the age from which you can drive a car from 17 to 25 - unless you in a special class where driving is essential for your work and perhaps restricted to certain public services.  

In this way many more young folk have to get used to using public transport or taxis - and hence the demand for public transport increases and it becomes more available and market forces being equal - cheaper.  And if that age group get usefd to using public transport their need to own and use a car when they reach 25 reduces?  Maybe...

Got to change the culture and expectations around driving - very difficult to change people already driving.
		
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So with it already being hard enough for young people to find a career we would then limit them to where they could work and prob put their cost of living up? (With min wage being lower for under 25s)

Maybe look at the other end.. retirements.. you have all day to get somewhere get the bus...


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So with it already being hard enough for young people to find a career we would then limit them to where they could work and prob put their cost of living up? (With min wage being lower for under 25s)

Maybe look at the other end.. retirements.. you have all day to get somewhere get the bus...
		
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Can you imagine all the retired golfers trying to lug their trolley bags, powerkaddys and shoes onto a bus😂 

If we had no use of cars for under 25s where i live the unemployment rate would go through the roof. We have next to non existent transport links as its not cost effective for bus services, we have no train station and no local trade.  So under that idea nobody under 25 would be able to work and would be a drain on the welfare system.


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 10, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			One thing I saw on my round the world travels was electric scooters. They look fantastic. Environmentally friendly. A mile or two to work, what’s not to like. But I went to Hawaii, San Fran, Sydney, Brisbane and Singapore. The weather was nice. But would you want one here. Downside is they drive like bloody idiots both on the rd and pavements. They think they have the best of both worlds. Ironically I saw a news report the other day that they are illegal in the UK. Yet the government is looking at how to instigate them within the UK. From what I have seen it will take the carnage off the roads onto the pavement.
		
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I'd totally go for one of these


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

What we have available today is not the point, its more to do with where we need to get to and how we can do it.  Its obvious that public transport isnt good enough to allow us to rely on it today but how about in 10, 20, 30 years. Surely we can't use arguements about how difficult it would be to play golf or  how few busses there are in rural areas now.

We can either start changing infrastructure and systems progressively or what? Do nothing, is that really an option.  I understand that to introduce the changes necessary for us to live without the reliance on fossil fuel will not be easy and many obstacles would need to be overcome, people will need to live and work differently but many solutions are there already, the biggest job is changing minds.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Can you imagine all the retired golfers trying to lug their trolley bags, powerkaddys and shoes onto a bus😂 

If we had no use of cars for under 25s where i live the unemployment rate would go through the roof. We have next to non existent transport links as its not cost effective for bus services, we have no train station and no local trade.  So under that idea nobody under 25 would be able to work and would be a drain on the welfare system.
		
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It's just always the way tho. Just come up with an idea that really doesn't affect the generation of the person coming up with it and trying to force it onto another generation who have their own issues.

Yes we need to change but technology will help and innovation will come.

For example how long before a person buys an electric car.. gets solar panels for their house then gets some old electric car Batteries on the side of their house (this is what nissan are working towards) 

Solar charges the batteries up during the day then at night the batteries charge up the car 

That person's travel would become cost neutral as would their carbon footprint for that car ..

I want to get onto stage one which is lease myself a leaf.. not committing to the buy yet as the tech isn't fully proven

I do 50 miles a day round trip so 2 days before a charge 

Use that for work would make me much better 

I can work on the wife with the solar panels as she doesn't want them 

Little changes like that from everyone can add up

If you don't drive many miles per year and don't use more than 100 miles in a go you should look at an electric car.  That would help for sure .

For example another thing we are doing is cutting down on meat slightly. Not a lot.. every other day is veggie for dinner.. helps slightly 

Everyone can do little bits and it makes change 

Rather than right your under 25 you shouldn't drive

Your over 65 you should get a bus


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This only random possible thought.  Change the age from which you can drive a car from 17 to 25 - unless you in a special class where driving is essential for your work and perhaps restricted to certain public services. 

In this way many more young folk have to get used to using public transport or taxis - and hence the demand for public transport increases and it becomes more available and market forces being equal - cheaper.  And if that age group get usefd to using public transport their need to own and use a car when they reach 25 reduces?  Maybe...

Got to change the culture and expectations around driving - very difficult to change people already driving.  Too many 16yr olds sit with their provisional licencing in expectation of being able to have a car when they are 17.  And once they get used to having that car from 17 a mindset is established that is very difficult to change.
		
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I would suggest you don’t have children close to late teenager/early 20’s, because if you did you would know that many lads around that age don’t learn to drive because of the total costs, and girls do learn because of personal safety and security.
Both my daughters (30 and 25) had more boyfriends who couldn’t drive than who could.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I would suggest you don’t have children close to late teenager/early 20’s, because if you did you would know that many lads around that age don’t learn to drive because of the total costs, and girls do learn because of personal safety and security.
Both my daughters (30 and 25) had more boyfriends who couldn’t drive than who could.
		
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Yes I do and I know.  My lad (aged 27) only past his test late last year - and only drives because he needs to for his work.  He lives in Sheffield and has lived there for 7 yrs and so is used to using public transport.

And I only made the suggestion on the basis of breaking the expectation of having a car from the age of 17 - or early 20s - that many have - when much of the time they don't need one.   I accept that my thought is a challenging one - and maybe it's one that I might not actually agree with - but girls can learn to drive at 16 and use a parents car. One of the issues is the volume of cars on the road.  Do we really need families having four or more cars?  Maybe multiple car ownership becomes quite highly taxed.

And my son?  Truth is that he _could _do his job without a car - using public transport - but it would be very difficult and expensive.  So for instance last night he was managing a concert in Boston Lincs.  He's back home in Sheffield today and tomorrow travels to Harwich, then on Wednesday he's at Southwark Cathedral London, and Thursday Southampton- then back to Sheffield - leaving Southampton at about 11:30pm...Yes - all could be done by public transport (except Southampton to Sheffield at midnight).  But he is only taking on this work *because* he can get to the venues using a car.


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## Russ_D (Feb 10, 2020)

Star Trek style Transporters . 
Other than that a better alternative to Electric cars. Yes, they are enviromentally friendly to drive but currently a pain to charge especially the those who love in old style terraced streets where you may not be able to park your car outside your house. Technology for electric cars has outpaced the infrastructure to support them.

Self charging Hybrids are a better option but I'd say bio fuels that are under development that can be used in existing cars. There is a company that is able to synthesis fuel from waste materials like plastic and food waste. 

Hydrogen fuel cells. Buses in Icelancd currently run on it and although its still in its infancy I thinks its the way to go.
Still prefer the transporter though. Just think, set off for your round and arrive in the first tee ready to play! .


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I do and I know.  My lad (aged 27) only past his test late last year - and only drives because he needs to for his work.  He lives in Sheffield and has lived there for 7 yrs and so is used to using public transport.

And I only made the suggestion on the basis of breaking the expectation of having a car from the age of 17 - or early 20s - that many have - when much of the time they don't need one.   I accept that my thought is a challenging one - and maybe it's one that I might not actually agree with - but girls can learn to drive at 16 and use a parents car. One of the issues is the volume of cars on the road.  Do we really need families having four or more cars?  Maybe multiple car ownership becomes quite highly taxed.

And my son?  Truth is that he _could _do his job without a car - using public transport - but it would be very difficult and expensive.  So for instance last night he was managing a concert in Boston Lincs.  He's back home in Sheffield today and tomorrow travels to Harwich, then on Wednesday he's at Southwark Cathedral London, and Thursday Southampton- then back to Sheffield - leaving Southampton at about 11:30pm...Yes - all could be done by public transport.  But he is only taking on this work *because* he can get to the venues using a car.
		
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Sorry but what?

Girls can not drive at 16 in there parents car

Girls can (like boys) apply for their provisional and have it by their 16th birthday and then learn to drive a moped or light quad bike  not in a car on a UK road until your 17

Unless you have quoted someone back and I missed it


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I do and I know.  My lad (aged 27) only past his test late last year - and only drives because he needs to for his work.  He lives in Sheffield and has lived there for 7 yrs and so is used to using public transport.

And I only made the suggestion on the basis of breaking the expectation of having a car from the age of 17 - or early 20s - that many have - when much of the time they don't need one.   I accept that my thought is a challenging one - and maybe it's one that I might not actually agree with - but girls can learn to drive at 16 and use a parents car. One of the issues is the volume of cars on the road.  Do we really need families having four or more cars?  Maybe multiple car ownership becomes quite highly taxed.
		
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Higher car tax is an unfair way of reducing cars on the road as it hits the lower paid the hardest.  I think restricting people from driving in certain areas and making alternative methods more attractive is a better plan.  We dont need to completely stop cars in towns but start by restricting access in some roads while opening them to pedestrians, cycles and public transport.
When in Germany I often drove to an out of town carpark and used the tram into the town centre.


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## pool888 (Feb 10, 2020)

Tesla already have a "Powerwall" battery that you can charge up from solar or from off peak electricity then time shift to peak times. The electric scooter would be great for people who commute alone, would use much less energy and less pollution and remove cars from the busy roads, our country does need to look into how to legislate to get these in use, maybe mandatory registration and insurance.

We have 1 child, the nearest city is 35 miles away a return trip bus fare is £46.25 and takes 1hr 30 mins, car is around £9.00 in fuel and 50 minutes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but what?

Girls can not drive at 16 in there parents car

Girls can (like boys) apply for their provisional and have it by their 16th birthday and then learn to drive a moped or light quad bike  not in a car on a UK road until your 17

Unless you have quoted someone back and I missed it
		
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Yes I know - but many get their provisional licence and learn to drive - waiting to turn 17 when they can get a car and drive themselves.  I was suggesting that many girls (and lads) could drive a parents car once they have passed their test.  They don't need to own their own.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2020)

pretty hard up here, esp if you need to go anywhere outside of town, buses are poor and limited as are Trains. the wife used to take the bus to SNH, until they changed the bus route, takes and hour and a half for a 10 min trip as it now goes the opposite way and goes all around the town first, she would have to walk into town to get it which is further than the old journey


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Higher car tax is an unfair way of reducing cars on the road as it hits the lower paid the hardest.  I think restricting people from driving in certain areas and making alternative methods more attractive is a better plan.  We dont need to completely stop cars in towns but start by restricting access in some roads while opening them to pedestrians, cycles and public transport.
When in Germany I often drove to an out of town carpark and used the tram into the town centre.
		
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I was only thinking that - say - the first two cars are taxed normally and further cars are very highly taxed...but it was only a random thought given the question...I get the inequality...

So make it that youngsters can't drive until they are 25...again - that might be a starting point from which to work from rather than have it a strict thing.

I'm only thinking of how you break the *expectation *that many youngsters (not all) have of having a car to drive from the age of 17 into early 20s.  Maybe put severe restrictions on naming multiple youngsters on parental car insurance.  Just thoughts.  And not actually or necessarily agreeing with them myself   I can think of many issues - but in truth many of the issues that we come up with are simply functions of how and where we choose to live and work these days.  They are real - but they are issues that in many instances we _could _get round if we 100% had to.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

pool888 said:



			Tesla already have a "Powerwall" battery that you can charge up from solar or from off peak electricity then time shift to peak times. The electric scooter would be great for people who commute alone, would use much less energy and less pollution and remove cars from the busy roads, our country does need to look into how to legislate to get these in use, maybe mandatory registration and insurance.

We have 1 child, the nearest city is 35 miles away a return trip bus fare is £46.25 and takes 1hr 30 mins, car is around £9.00 in fuel and 50 minutes.
		
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See where we live is perfect for us 

We are on the district line so have a tube station within a 7 min walk

We also have a national rail station within a 15 mins bus ride 

The wife uses the train to get to work.

I use one of the cars. (Want to replace with a leaf. Makes us more carbon neutral)

When she goes into town she uses the bus a lot . Sometimes drives depends what she needs 

Shopping wise she walks with our 2 year old to the local Tesco and brings the shopping back under her buggy 

I'd say that's pretty decent 

She will message me lists for big shops and I'll do around my drives to and from work ..

The leaf idea hopefully will work for golf. However if it doesn't I'll take the petrol car and leave the wife the leaf .

My parents have both now passed 60, and their trying to do their bit. They get free travel at 60 round our way so they get buses to place..dad buses or bikes to work. Mum buses to work. They use their hybrids mostly to take our daughter out lol 

I started the hybrid trend in my family. I had one then my dad. Mum and sister got them lol. Maybe my leaf will start and electric trend


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I know - but many get their provisional licence and learn to drive - waiting to turn 17 when they can get a car and drive themselves.  I was suggesting that many girls (and lads) could drive a parents car once they have passed their test.  They don't need to own their own.
		
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You cannot legally learn to drive a car until your 17 last time I checked, unless you get an enhanced rate of PiP


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			pretty hard up here, esp if you need to go anywhere outside of town, buses are poor and limited as are Trains. the wife used to take the bus to SNH, until they changed the bus route, takes and hour and a half for a 10 min trip as it now goes the opposite way and goes all around the town first, she would have to walk into town to get it which is further than the old journey
		
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Where are these 16 year olds learning? Round Mt way we do have a car drome you can pay £15 and drive your parents car at like any age 

However can drive on a road? So where is everyone learning?

And why did you say girls then backtrack?

Going back to the point of your son who does all on train etc 

Good for him

However many others can't


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You cannot legally learn to drive a car until your 17 last time I checked, unless you get an enhanced rate of PiP
		
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OK - it's a long time since I sat my test.  My thinking on the question posed is not so much about the exact age at which you learn to drive and then can take a car on the road - but the expectation of *owning *or having easy access to a car; then that of what you *must have *one for; and then what it is *acceptable *to use one for.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You cannot legally learn to drive a car until your 17 last time I checked, unless you get an enhanced rate of PiP
		
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Correct. My two have been through this recently and you can not get on the road in a car until you are 17. Bizarrely, a useless fact for you, you can drive a tractor on the road at 16! Not just on a farm, actually on the highways.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

...and I'll add.  Because I don't drink, my daughter and her mates would go out clubbing and call a Hueber (anytime, anyplace - and free - that's me) to come and pick them up at unearthly hours - And that's OK.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - it's a long time since I sat my test.  My thinking on the question posed is not so much about the exact age at which you learn to drive and then can take a car on the road - but the expectation of *owning *or having easy access to a car; then that of what you *must have *one for; and then what it is *acceptable *to use one for.
		
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I don't think many expect to own a car.. if anything young people lease them more anyways but that is by the by.

Insurance for the first year of driving is anything up to 5k these days so people are priced out of driving almost as it is.

A friend of mine didn't take her test until she was 25 rather than 17 as she just didn't see the need

My best mate was 21 when she first got a car. she had her license from 17 but didn't get a car until she was 21.. I remember because she was working local to her home... she walked to work. then they moved offices that was a 20 min drive.. one bus per day in each direction (Yorkshire) that was too late to get her to work and too early to get her home so I loaned her the money to buy a second hand car to get here to work


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2020)

Society has evolved around ease of movement - trip density is so diverse 'public transport' won't solve people's travel needs. The car is essential for the least able to afford it. changes will hit the poorest families hardest. We will need to solve the issue of environmentally sustainable 'private' travel systems.

Meanwhile.

Don't get me wrong the Bill Gates foundation does some excellent work but! - He's now ordered a new boat at a monetary cost of $600m - the Environmental impact of construction is not stated. It will need a crew of 20 odd and room for 14 guests!

However, not to worry as everything is fine because it will be hydrogen powered by fuel cells!!

The sources of his supply of hydrogen are unknown so there's are diesel driven generator systems as 'back-up' !! He has previously chartered boats but wanted a new one.

Its his money but it is nice to know that some of us plebs in the real world are taking climate responsibility seriously.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't think many expect to own a car.. if anything young people lease them more anyways but that is by the by.

Insurance for the first year of driving is anything up to 5k these days so people are priced out of driving almost as it is.

A friend of mine didn't take her test until she was 25 rather than 17 as she just didn't see the need

My best mate was 21 when she first got a car. she had her license from 17 but didn't get a car until she was 21.. I remember because she was working local to her home... she walked to work. then they moved offices that was a 20 min drive.. one bus per day in each direction (Yorkshire) that was too late to get her to work and too early to get her home so I loaned her the money to buy a second hand car to get here to work
		
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Any suggestions or thoughts I have made are simply in respect of somehow not getting car-use established as an essential part of an individual's life.  Once car-use is established I am thinking that it is very hard to break - since many aspects of that person's life will be based upon have readily available car use.  We have moved from a position where a car was a luxury (when my dad first got a car in 1963), then a bit of a luxury and status thing - to it being a day-2-day essential. 

It may never now be possible for car-use to not be essential for some things - but how do we make car-use less essential for more things.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Society has evolved around ease of movement - trip density is so diverse 'public transport' won't solve people's travel needs. The car is essential for the least able to afford it. changes will hit the poorest families hardest. We will need to solve the issue of environmentally sustainable 'private' travel systems.

Meanwhile.

Don't get me wrong the Bill Gates foundation does some excellent work but! - He's now ordered a new boat at a monetary cost of $600m - the Environmental impact of construction is not stated. It will need a crew of 20 odd and room for 14 guests!

However, not to worry as everything is fine because it will be hydrogen powered by fuel cells!!

The sources of his supply of hydrogen are unknown so there's are diesel driven generator systems as 'back-up' !! He has previously chartered boats but wanted a new one.

Its his money but it is nice to know that some of us plebs in the real world are taking climate responsibility seriously.
		
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don't worry. the rich (like emma Thompson) when she flew over to protest about climate change.. offset by planting some trees rather than change their lifes


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - it's a long time since I sat my test.  My thinking on the question posed is not so much about the exact age at which you learn to drive and then can take a car on the road - but the expectation of *owning *or having easy access to a car; then that of what you *must have *one for; and then what it is *acceptable *to use one for.
		
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Who deems what is acceptable use though. Not all 17 - 25 year old expect to own a car. Many people of that age need access to a car to get to work, its not as simple as restricting number of cars per household. We need a minimum of 2 cars in my house due to where we live, how far we are from nearest towns, work and absolute lack of public transport. If my oldest daughter lived with us that need would go up to 3 cars due to all the above, due to shift patterns being often opposite and fact myself, my wife and daughter all work in separate towns so no feasible way to give lifts.. This is a common theme in rural areas like ours, its not expectation its purely necessity. Under your idea of higher taxing that would simply put my daughter out of work and college, then what she becomes a drain on welfare.

What needs to happen is transport links need massively improving to allow better access to towns, city's etc., part of that needs to be more affordable as well. I'd love for us to be able to have less use of cars. Hopefully with Mrs Wolf progressing her change of career and mine by the end if the summer we will be in a position to lose one of our cars and next year when mines due for renewal change to a hybrid. These are small changes effectively but requires big lifestyle change to put into place unfortunately for us.


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's just always the way tho. Just come up with an idea that really doesn't affect the generation of the person coming up with it and trying to force it onto another generation who have their own issues.

Yes we need to change but technology will help and innovation will come.

For example how long before a person buys an electric car.. gets solar panels for their house then gets some old electric car Batteries on the side of their house (this is what nissan are working towards)

Solar charges the batteries up during the day then at night the batteries charge up the car

That person's travel would become cost neutral as would their carbon footprint for that car ..

I want to get onto stage one which is lease myself a leaf.. not committing to the buy yet as the tech isn't fully proven

I do 50 miles a day round trip so 2 days before a charge

Use that for work would make me much better

I can work on the wife with the solar panels as she doesn't want them

Little changes like that from everyone can add up

If you don't drive many miles per year and don't use more than 100 miles in a go you should look at an electric car.  That would help for sure .

For example another thing we are doing is cutting down on meat slightly. Not a lot.. every other day is veggie for dinner.. helps slightly

Everyone can do little bits and it makes change

Rather than right your under 25 you shouldn't drive

Your over 65 you should get a bus
		
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I agree with pretty everything bar your concluding para. Why penalise any generation? Should the older generation stand in a bus queue? And what percentage difference would banning either generation from the roads? But as SR says, we're being a little narrow with our focus. The changes need to be more encompassing and dramatic.

Better technologies, better infrastructure, changing mindsets and habits. The changes ripple through so many aspects of life. The changes to manufacturing, and what industries would die or grow from those changes. What would the infrastructure need to look like? Changes from High Street shopping to more internet shopping, but what would the High Street look like? What tax breaks would help, e.g. dumping a gas boiler for alternative technologies even though there's plenty of life left in the boiler?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with pretty everything bar your concluding para. Why penalise any generation? Should the older generation stand in a bus queue? And what percentage difference would banning either generation from the roads? But as SR says, we're being a little narrow with our focus. The changes need to be more encompassing and dramatic.

Better technologies, better infrastructure, changing mindsets and habits. The changes ripple through so many aspects of life. The changes to manufacturing, and what industries would die or grow from those changes. What would the infrastructure need to look like? Changes from High Street shopping to more internet shopping, but what would the High Street look like? What tax breaks would help, e.g. dumping a gas boiler for alternative technologies even though there's plenty of life left in the boiler?
		
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that was the point.. its a generalization that shouldn't be used .. everyone should change rather than make one generation suffer


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any suggestions or thoughts I have made are simply in respect of somehow not getting car-use established as an essential part of an individual's life.  Once car-use is established I am thinking that it is very hard to break - since many aspects of that person's life will be based upon have readily available car use.  We have moved from a position where a car was a luxury (when my dad first got a car in 1963), then a bit of a luxury and status thing - to it being a day-2-day essential.

It may never now be possible for car-use to not be essential for some things - but how do we make car-use less essential for more things.
		
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thing is even without a car people will still relay on cars. Taxis to take them to work.. parents giving them lifts..

still cars

then they will be like could save myself some cash.. drive myself


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Who deems what is acceptable use though. Not all 17 - 25 year old expect to own a car. Many people of that age need access to a car to get to work, its not as simple as restricting number of cars per household. We need a minimum of 2 cars in my house due to where we live, how far we are from nearest towns, work and absolute lack of public transport. If my oldest daughter lived with us that need would go up to 3 cars due to all the above, due to shift patterns being often opposite and fact myself, my wife and daughter all work in separate towns so no feasible way to give lifts.. This is a common theme in rural areas like ours, its not expectation its purely necessity. Under your idea of higher taxing that would simply put my daughter out of work and college, then what she becomes a drain on welfare.

What needs to happen is transport links need massively improving to allow better access to towns, city's etc., part of that needs to be more affordable as well. I'd love for us to be able to have less use of cars. Hopefully with Mrs Wolf progressing her change of career and mine by the end if the summer we will be in a position to lose one of our cars and next year when mines due for renewal change to a hybrid. These are small changes effectively but requires big lifestyle change to put into place unfortunately for us.
		
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a guy at work tried to convince me I could get by with just 1 car. Which in theory I could but in practice is a massive pain

wife works 3 days a week so id have to leave the car for her the other 2 days.. taking my travel time from 45 mins each way to hour and 45

at a weekend imagine doing 12 hour shifts with 2 hours each way.. because the car would have to be at home for the wife to use with the family

so a cheap second car is much better option

hence why im pushing for a leaf.. I don't need a flash motor to get to work.. and if I can save some cash and lower petrol use why not


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I know - but many get their provisional licence and learn to drive - waiting to turn 17 when they can get a car and drive themselves.  I was suggesting that many girls (and lads) could drive a parents car once they have passed their test.  They don't need to own their own.
		
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Better idea....why don’t we ban anyone who qualifies for a free bus pass from owning or driving a car.....they obviously have access to free transport.

I didn’t think you’d like that idea....


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			a guy at work tried to convince me I could get by with just 1 car. Which in theory I could but in practice is a massive pain

wife works 3 days a week so id have to leave the car for her the other 2 days.. taking my travel time from 45 mins each way to hour and 45

at a weekend imagine doing 12 hour shifts with 2 hours each way.. because the car would have to be at home for the wife to use with the family

so a cheap second car is much better option

hence why im pushing for a leaf.. I don't need a flash motor to get to work.. and if I can save some cash and lower petrol use why not
		
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There in lies the issue some people don't understand, everyone circumstances are different and why a blanket ban approach simply isn't feasible. Wife and I both work shifts that can start as early as 530am and Finish at 11pm. We work rolling shifts of 5 days out of 7 due to industry we work in. However work in towns about 20 miles apart. There is no feasible way to share a single car as there is no public transport at times required we have no choice but to run 2 cars. If my daughter came to live with us instead of with her mum she'd have to learn to drive and get a 3rd car in our household as she works 4 days and attends college 3 days, and due to work patterns we simply couldn't take her. 

If we had better transport links it could perhaps be feasible but would be more costly and double the time. 

Once our new jobs are hopefully sorted we can drop a car and get a hybrid as still wouldn't be feasible to go full electric due to other journeys we'd still have. But it would be a start.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2020)

Simply changing the motive power won't be enough... It will be wholesale changes in attitude and lifestyle that will be required... I've seen photographs of workplaces, in the 50's, with a mere handful of cars parked up but with rows and rows of bike sheds stacked full of pedal cycles... I can just about remember it being near impossible to cross the main road when it was kicking out time for the local factories and everyone got on their cycles and pedalled home...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

I don't think we can change *us *very much - maybe a bit incrementally.  But I _do _think we *can *- and have to - change the starting point in respect of cars and living/working habits of new drivers.  So that when the next generations of drivers get to their mid-late 20s when they _could _afford a car and the insurance - they do not have the same need - and hence desire - to have one.  

But we of older generations have to support them along the way to reach that point - by demonstrating our own willingness to adopt change - albeit incrementally.  We must also show that we accept many of the arguments of climate change that the younger generations are willing to take on board - and not just hammer them for 'being so naive' and disruptive with their protests....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			There in lies the issue some people don't understand, everyone circumstances are different and why a blanket ban approach simply isn't feasible. Wife and I both work shifts that can start as early as 530am and Finish at 11pm. We work rolling shifts of 5 days out of 7 due to industry we work in. However work in towns about 20 miles apart. There is no feasible way to share a single car as there is no public transport at times required we have no choice but to run 2 cars. If my daughter came to live with us instead of with her mum she'd have to learn to drive and get a 3rd car in our household as she works 4 days and attends college 3 days, and due to work patterns we simply couldn't take her. 

If we had better transport links it could perhaps be feasible but would be more costly and double the time. 

Once our new jobs are hopefully sorted we can drop a car and get a hybrid as still wouldn't be feasible to go full electric due to other journeys we'd still have. But it would be a start.
		
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See that's perfect , having a plan to change is great. If every house hold could do it some how what a change it would be 

I'm noticing young people wanting to change more..and more so slowly change could come 

Wasn't it Volvo who said all their new cars will have a hybrid battery?


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			See that's perfect , having a plan to change is great. If every house hold could do it some how what a change it would be

I'm noticing young people wanting to change more..and more so slowly change could come

Wasn't it Volvo who said all their new cars will have a hybrid battery?
		
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Exactly right, people seem to want radical changes though and think that's the answer it really isn't. We  are planning small steps to start and gradually that will evolve into further improvement forus. If everyone did that we would all get there as a collective. 

It was indeed Volvo all new cars to be minimum of hybrid with full EV options also


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Exactly right, people seem to want radical changes though and think that's the answer it really isn't. We  are planning small steps to start and gradually that will evolve into further improvement forus. If everyone did that we would all get there as a collective.

It was indeed Volvo all new cars to be minimum of hybrid with full EV options also
		
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I am going to suggest it is radical changes that are required... Small steps appear to be getting 'us' nowhere... 

The question posed was "What's going to get us to leave the car?"... Seems to me most of the responses are excuses as why we can't rather reasons why we can...

Denial, denial, denial...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am going to suggest it is radical changes that are required... Small steps appear to be getting 'us' nowhere...

The question posed was "What's going to get us to leave the car?"... Seems to me most of the responses are excuses as why we can't rather reasons why we can...

Denial, denial, denial...
		
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I rather agree - why I can only see a solution coming from a dramatic change for the next generations of drivers, with these drivers being supported by incremental but real changes in the behaviours of existing drivers - and supported by our support in the climate causes that will enable the next generation to accept the significant changes.

For us long as 'we' dismiss 'their' climate change concerns and protests as 'naive' and 'wrong-sighted', many of those younger folks will reject suggestions that 'they' - not 'us' - should shoulder the load of significant change.


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## GB72 (Feb 10, 2020)

The trouble is that a lot of proposed policy comes from those living in cities. If I lived in London or any of the major metropolitan areas where you can hop on some form of public transport pretty much when you want and get to where you want then I would use it. Would be mad not to and perhaps the first target should be restricting car ownership in major cities or restricting ownership to small and electric vehicles. Nobody really takes rural communities into account. My village literally has 2 buses about 8.00 in the morning and one back at about 5.00 and if the bus companies could ditch those then they would. A cab home is between £15 and £25 depending on time and normally need some form of booking in advance. What bus company is going to put on regular services which would not even have enough on most of them to cover the fuel costs.


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## pendodave (Feb 10, 2020)

If everyone drove around in a ford fiesta with a 650cc engine, pollution in all its forms would be reduced by a lot (half?) overnight. There would be almost no significant changes required to our current living, working, shopping and leisure practices. Yet even that is impossible, because we have a combination of political disfunction, corporate lobbying and individual 'specialness' that would prevent it.
So let's not even talk about talk about the other stuff that would only happen in some sort of apocalypse.

We're *****d


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## upsidedown (Feb 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Correct. My two have been through this recently and you can not get on the road in a car until you are 17. Bizarrely, a useless fact for you, you can drive a* tractor* on the road at 16! Not just on a farm, actually on the highways.
		
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Only if you've passed your test and it's under 2.45m wide .
Where we live public transport is not an option,nearest town is 4 miles and there is talk of the one bus service being discontinued from there to 3 bigger towns down to just 2


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Only if you've passed your test and it's under 2.45m wide .
		
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I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2020)

I just wonder who the '*They*' are that will give up their cars and/or travel by bus or downsize to a small vehicle ?

Surely you don't mean 'ME' and 'WE' !!!

I've got a PHEV but at the end of the day; across the globe we'll *all* need to modify our behaviour and therein lies the biggest challenge.


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## upsidedown (Feb 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?
		
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Don't know, guess it's to do with the weights ?  I learnt to drive a tractor at 9, MF 135 which was fairly usual in the farming fraternity


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## oxymoron (Feb 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am going to suggest it is radical changes that are required... Small steps appear to be getting 'us' nowhere...

The question posed was "What's going to get us to leave the car?"... Seems to me most of the responses are excuses as why we can't rather reasons why we can...

Denial, denial, denial...
		
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Its not denial i think it is a fact of modern life, we now work and live in a 24 hour , 7 day a week society and round where i live public transport stops around 23:00 only to restart at about 05:00
so it is pretty much useless to quite a few workers.And do not forget the society we live in was created by us , our desire to have everything on tap 24 hours a day from supermarkets to pubs .
We need a complete rethink on public transport , it needs to fit with the areas and public in those areas ,however this is never going to fly because the companies need to make a profit to keep going
and are not going to put a bus out at ,say 03:00 for just one person it is just not feasible .
Then again our power infrastructure is probably not up to a sudden take up of electric cars at the moment.

I am not making excuses its just how i see things .
 And i would love to be able to have an electric vehicle but we have a terraced house but that is another topic for another day i suppose.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

Ah



Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?
		
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I used to like tractors


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## Russ_D (Feb 10, 2020)

Bring back the Sinclair C5 I say, sure you get to where you need to be very late but it's green transport and still cool in a nerdy sort of way. Just need a rack for the golf clubs.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

It's unfortunately impossible to get Americans to give up there cars.
We had decent public transportation one hundred years ago.
Now we probably have the least public rail transportation of any developed country.
I'm ashamed of that.

I wouldn't want us to give up cars, but they should only be for pleasure use and running errands.
We shouldn't need them to commute to work or school or for long holiday trips.  One can always rent a car at one's destination if required.

I wouldn't rent a car in the UK, however, because I'm afraid of the opposite side protocol.
I am terrified just riding in a taxi cab.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?
		
Click to expand...

must be a farmer thing, went to school with a kid who's father had a very large farm that had its own roads. He had a Morris Minor his father had given him and he just drove it about the estate, we all had a go on a reg basis, i was quite a competent driver by the time i took my test


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			must be a farmer thing, went to school with a kid who's father had a very large farm that had its own roads. He had a Morris Minor his father had given him and he just drove it about the estate, we all had a go on a reg basis, i was quite a competent driver by the time i took my test
		
Click to expand...

I had farming friends at school who drove all over their farms pre 17. No problem with that, it is private land. It just seems odd that they can drive tractors not just on the farm but on open roads. I would have expected the age for driving any 4 wheeled vehicle on a public road to be the same.

Must have been a blast driving on private land pre 17, a bit like under age drinking.


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## CliveW (Feb 10, 2020)

Back in the day, you could drive a three wheeled car on a motorbike licence when you were 16. This covered things like bubble cars and laterly  the Bond Bug. Now to drive a three wheeler you need to be 21!


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Back in the day, you could drive a three wheeled car on a motorbike licence when you were 16. This covered things like bubble cars and laterly  the Bond Bug. Now to drive a three wheeler you need to be 21!
		
Click to expand...

The driving age where I live is still sixteen.  One need only be older, usually 18, for commercial or industrial vehicles which require a different class of license.
Due to insurance costs, however, one still needs to be 25 to rent a car.


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## USER1999 (Feb 10, 2020)

I used to go round a friends farm and drive round the fields in a mark 10 jag. It had been gate posted, so one side was mangled beyond repair. Fun to scoot about in though.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Back in the day, you could drive a three wheeled car on a motorbike licence when you were 16. This covered things like bubble cars and laterly  the Bond Bug. Now to drive a three wheeler you need to be 21!
		
Click to expand...

I believe you still can


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I had farming friends at school who drove all over their farms pre 17. No problem with that, it is private land. It just seems odd that they can drive tractors not just on the farm but on open roads. I would have expected the age for driving any 4 wheeled vehicle on a public road to be the same.

Must have been a blast driving on private land pre 17, a bit like under age drinking.
		
Click to expand...

a simpler happer time... for both


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## stefanovic (Feb 10, 2020)

If there was a limit on the size of vehicles people drive there would be less pollution and more room on the road.
I find it astonishing that given the state of the roads - traffic jams, potholes, air pollution - people are still switching to bigger vehicles which exacerbate these problems.
Guess we need something like what happened in 1970's - a petrol crisis where the price of fuel rockets.


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## CliveW (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I believe you still can

Click to expand...

I thought so, but saw this...

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q504.htm


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			If there was a limit on the size of vehicles people drive there would be less pollution and more room on the road.
I find it astonishing that given the state of the roads - traffic jams, potholes, air pollution - people are still switching to bigger vehicles which exacerbate these problems.
Guess we need something like what happened in 1970's - a petrol crisis where the price of fuel rockets.
		
Click to expand...

Well there is this recently - and if it were adopted (i am not arguing the right or wrong of the study) in any city that would be a bit of an encouragement for many in that city to downsize

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/mo...ouncil-wants-to-ban-suvs-from-built-up-areas/


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I thought so, but saw this...

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q504.htm

Click to expand...

Perhaps its changed along with the motorbike regulations.
There wasn't exactly a lot of go in a Relaint Robin, all the time it was the right way up


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			If there was a limit on the size of vehicles people drive there would be less pollution and more room on the road.
I find it astonishing that given the state of the roads - traffic jams, potholes, air pollution - people are still switching to bigger vehicles which exacerbate these problems.
Guess we need something like what happened in 1970's - a petrol crisis where the price of fuel rockets.
		
Click to expand...

The significantly reduced size of all sedans that cost less than a Mercedes S Class is exactly what's driving people to drive bigger utility vehicles instead.  

I used to drive Cadillacs or Lincolns, even though they were really too much car for my income levels,  because they were comfortable and performed well.
Now they're little pregnant roller skates like all of the other sedans--do you call them saloons?-- so my last three cars have been Jeep Grand Cherokee utility vehicles in which I can still feel comfortable. You're probably familiar with them as they're sold in the UK.

If there were a limit on the size of vehicles, the legislators who passed that law would be looking for new jobs, and the next group would repeal the legislation forthwith.

Brits pay the same for fuel on the world market as Americans do.  
You pay as much for a liter as we pay for a whole gallon because your government prefers to tax fuel at a much higher level.  
I'm not saying that this is bad if the revenues are put to good public use.   It isn't, and I'm not a cretinous Trumpanzee.
I'm just saying that I'm not comfortable in pregnant roller skates.  I didn't grow up riding in them.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			Its not denial i think it is a fact of modern life, we now work and live in a 24 hour , 7 day a week society and round where i live public transport stops around 23:00 only to restart at about 05:00
so it is pretty much useless to quite a few workers.And do not forget the society we live in was created by us , our desire to have everything on tap 24 hours a day from supermarkets to pubs .
We need a complete rethink on public transport , it needs to fit with the areas and public in those areas ,however this is never going to fly because the companies need to make a profit to keep going
and are not going to put a bus out at ,say 03:00 for just one person it is just not feasible .
Then again our power infrastructure is probably not up to a sudden take up of electric cars at the moment.

I am not making excuses its just how i see things .
And i would love to be able to have an electric vehicle but we have a terraced house but that is another topic for another day i suppose.
		
Click to expand...

 "Modern life" needs to take a long hard look at itself... Believe a lot of re-evaluation is required along with wholesale changes... The world still went round and business functioned, with profits, long before car ownership/use became the norm... Let alone two/three car households...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The world still went round and business functioned, with profits, long before car ownership/use became the norm... Let alone two/three car households...
		
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Car ownership has been the norm for one hundred years, particularly for those who don't live in major cities.  How far back are you willing to regress?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			"Modern life" needs to take a long hard look at itself... Believe a lot of re-evaluation is required along with wholesale changes... The world still went round and business functioned, with profits, long before car ownership/use became the norm... Let alone two/three car households...
		
Click to expand...

The "old ways" will never return. People have been encouraged that mobility is good. Kids are dispatched all around the country because university life is "essential". Local factories and manufacturing has all gone, and those that do exist aren't employing locals becasue the jobs are beneath them. We therefore travel distances to work, wives work because they need to now so cars are essential to travel those miles to get to and from work.
There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.


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## pendodave (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The "old ways" will never return. People have been encouraged that mobility is good. Kids are dispatched all around the country because university life is "essential". Local factories and manufacturing has all gone, and those that do exist aren't employing locals becasue the jobs are beneath them. We therefore travel distances to work, wives work because they need to now so cars are essential to travel those miles to get to and from work.
There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.
		
Click to expand...

I think that you're right, but the sad thing is, most things would function perfectly well, just like they always did.
It's the utter pointlessness of the waste and destruction of our lifestyle that's so depressing.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The "old ways" will never return. People have been encouraged that mobility is good. Kids are dispatched all around the country because university life is "essential". Local factories and manufacturing has all gone, and those that do exist aren't employing locals becasue the jobs are beneath them. We therefore travel distances to work, wives work because they need to now so cars are essential to travel those miles to get to and from work.
There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.
		
Click to expand...

It will return to 1066 when the oil runs out


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.
		
Click to expand...

1950s and 1960s were pretty much the same as now where it comes to personal motorcar usage.  I was there. I rode is cars every day.

We would be returning, probably, to pre-1930.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			1950s and 1960s were pretty much the same as now where it comes to personal motorcar usage.
		
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I doubt that very much, even in America. For a start, population growth has been immense and with it brings the increase in car numbers.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I doubt that very much, even in America. For a start, population growth has been immense and with it brings the increase in car numbers.
		
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In that sense, I totally agree. Population has certainly increased the _total number_ of cars, but car use per capita, at least in America, was quite established by the 1950s.

They made enough 1932 Fords that hot rods made from 1932 Fords with 1960s engines are still seen on the road today.  Most are terrifyingly unsafe if pushed hard,
but they pass inspection anyway.

And 1932 was during the Great Depression in America.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Few "radical" changes that wouldn't be unreasonable but would make a huge difference 

Ban all sports cars .. their mpg is rubbish and just carry max 2 people. All cars minimum 4 seats encourage sharing

Ban all ownership of more than 1 car per person in house .. if you have 2 adults fine 2 cars but 2 for 1? Really 

Ban motor racing. Your basically burning oil for no reason 

Formular one for example must be up there as one of the biggest wastes of oil 

However even changes like that people wouldn't accept so it does doom us all 

Then by that token aswell all the small changes we make just is like throwing a deckchair off the Titanic compared to how much co2 motor racing throws into the air


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Few "radical" changes that wouldn't be unreasonable but would make a huge difference
		
Click to expand...

Would they?



pauljames87 said:



			Ban all sports cars .. their mpg is rubbish and just carry max 2 people. All cars minimum 4 seats encourage sharing
		
Click to expand...

How many cars, regardless of type, do you see with a single occupant?  The only multiple occupancy you see round here is the chaos that is the school run.  As to the mpg, I've recently changed car, same size engine as the old one, 15% more power, but the mpg is about 40% better than the old one.  The new one would be classified as a sportier variant, so in this instance sportier is greener.



pauljames87 said:



			Ban all ownership of more than 1 car per person in house .. if you have 2 adults fine 2 cars but 2 for 1? Really
		
Click to expand...

How much damage does this actually do; they can only drive one car at a time.  And how many people that have a second car will have one that is smaller & more economical to preserve the value of the better car?  If that is brought in, which car are they going to get rid of?  My money is the smaller more economical one, thus potentially creating more of an issue than it will solve.



pauljames87 said:



			Ban motor racing. Your basically burning oil for no reason

Formular one for example must be up there as one of the biggest wastes of oil
		
Click to expand...

Is motor racing not a test bed for stuff that will trickle down into general use, thus saving pollution in the long run?

https://www.planetf1.com/uncategorized/formula-1-killing-the-planet-they-just-might-save-it/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motors...re-pollution-than-an-entire-formula-one-race/



pauljames87 said:



			However even changes like that people wouldn't accept so it does doom us all

Then by that token aswell all the small changes we make just is like throwing a deckchair off the Titanic compared to how much co2 motor racing throws into the air
		
Click to expand...

Why just pick on motor racing; now much pollution does professional golf, with the air travel round the globe, or professional cycling with its fleet of support cars & coaches put into the atmosphere?  And how much do golf & cycling produce in terms of trickle down technology to assist in reducing pollution in the future.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/oct/29/features.environment

Incidentally, few if any posts in this thread encourage the use of motorcycles to reduce jams on the road, reduce pollution, reduce damage to the infrastructure(a bit like transport planners then).  Anyone explain why?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would they?



How many cars, regardless of type, do you see with a single occupant?  The only multiple occupancy you see round here is the chaos that is the school run.  As to the mpg, I've recently changed car, same size engine as the old one, 15% more power, but the mpg is about 40% better than the old one.  The new one would be classified as a sportier variant, so in this instance sportier is greener.



How much damage does this actually do; they can only drive one car at a time.  And how many people that have a second car will have one that is smaller & more economical to preserve the value of the better car?  If that is brought in, which car are they going to get rid of?  My money is the smaller more economical one, thus potentially creating more of an issue than it will solve.



Is motor racing not a test bed for stuff that will trickle down into general use, thus saving pollution in the long run?

https://www.planetf1.com/uncategorized/formula-1-killing-the-planet-they-just-might-save-it/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motors...re-pollution-than-an-entire-formula-one-race/



Why just pick on motor racing; now much pollution does professional golf, with the air travel round the globe, or professional cycling with its fleet of support cars & coaches put into the atmosphere?  And how much do golf & cycling produce in terms of trickle down technology to assist in reducing pollution in the future.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/oct/29/features.environment

Incidentally, few if any posts in this thread encourage the use of motorcycles to reduce jams on the road, reduce pollution, reduce damage to the infrastructure(a bit like transport planners then).  Anyone explain why?
		
Click to expand...

Apart from the fact that building this second car would be a massive use of energy and resources not just owning it. materials for tyres.. another saving to the enviorment 

cars should be banned from being produced that dont provide a minium of 40mpg on average. force the companies to ditch the rubbish engines that burn oil for fun.

F1 you could argue do some good but they do much more harm. same as the golf for traveling around.. but added burning oil .. you could produce better tech without having F1 .. its just motorheads excuse ..

bikes are a very good way of getting around but then again the standard of driving would put most people off. the NHS would crumble under the added cost of injuries.


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## GB72 (Feb 10, 2020)

Thing is that many of the less polluting options are financially out of reach of many. You bring down the cost of fuel efficient cars or even electric cars and you may start the change. Many can only afford older cars on the second hand market and they are the least efficient. It is ok to preach change but many more environmentally sound options are simply out of reach of many, and maybe most, people whilst trying to tax people into better habits will only impact those who can least afford it


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Thing is that many of the less polluting options are financially out of reach of many. You bring down the cost of fuel efficient cars or even electric cars and you may start the change. Many can only afford older cars on the second hand market and they are the least efficient. It is ok to preach change but many more environmentally sound options are simply out of reach of many, and maybe most, people whilst trying to tax people into better habits will only impact those who can least afford it
		
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This is so true

ive looked at a 2 year lease on a leaf as my cheapest option.... £260 PM with £260 down

had a look at tesla model 3... £460pm with 6k down over 48 months....

just wow.. i know there good but make them cheaper so petrol looks less attractive


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*Apart from the fact that building this second car would be a massive use of energy and resources not just owning it. materials for tyres.. another saving to the enviorment*

cars should be banned from being produced that dont provide a minium of 40mpg on average. force the companies to ditch the rubbish engines that burn oil for fun.

F1 you could argue do some good but they do much more harm. same as the golf for traveling around.. but added burning oil .. you could produce better tech without having F1 .. its just motorheads excuse ..

bikes are a very good way of getting around but then again the standard of driving would put most people off. the NHS would crumble under the added cost of injuries.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of the vehicles kept in multiple ownership have already been made, so it is not an ongoing issue; guy I work has 3 cars, 1 modern, 1 old Land Rover and an old Triumph.  As far as the impact to the environment, are the electric cars as green as they seem?

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

I don't dispute that something needs to be done, but personally I think someone else hit the crux of the matter; there's simply too many of us for the planet to sustain.  I'm not saying the petrol engine is all good, but equally I'm not convinced that the electric car is the saviour of the planet it is being painted as.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			A lot of the vehicles kept in multiple ownership have already been made, so it is not an ongoing issue; guy I work has 3 cars, 1 modern, 1 old Land Rover and an old Triumph.  As far as the impact to the environment, are the electric cars as green as they seem?

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

I don't dispute that something needs to be done, but personally I think someone else hit the crux of the matter; there's simply too many of us for the planet to sustain.  I'm not saying the petrol engine is all good, but equally I'm not convinced that the electric car is the saviour of the planet it is being painted as.
		
Click to expand...

your closing statement 100% agree

I think we need to look at our uses

if we can go electric on numbers for day to day.. do it.. that will help

if we cant stick to petrol but something economical 

and this new virus is doing its hardest to help the overpoplulation part!.. I can be quite morbid. however modern life we live longer because of bettter health care and people go over seas and helps others... has played its part in overpopluation for sure

but no way to fix that part so just have to hope some great leaps are found in tech soon


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			A lot of the vehicles kept in multiple ownership have already been made, so it is not an ongoing issue; guy I work has 3 cars, 1 modern, 1 old Land Rover and an old Triumph.  As far as the impact to the environment, are the electric cars as green as they seem?

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

I don't dispute that something needs to be done, but personally I think someone else hit the crux of the matter; there's simply too many of us for the planet to sustain.  I'm not saying the petrol engine is all good, but equally I'm not convinced that the electric car is the saviour of the planet it is being painted as.
		
Click to expand...

From the article you highlighted.......

 ''This means that electric cars will get greener as the means to produce and power them begin to leave less of an environmental impact.''


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Few "radical" changes that wouldn't be unreasonable but would make a huge difference

Ban all sports cars .. their mpg is rubbish and just carry max 2 people. All cars minimum 4 seats encourage sharing

Ban all ownership of more than 1 car per person in house .. if you have 2 adults fine 2 cars but 2 for 1? Really

Ban motor racing. Your basically burning oil for no reason

Formular one for example must be up there as one of the biggest wastes of oil

However even changes like that people wouldn't accept so it does doom us all

Then by that token aswell all the small changes we make just is like throwing a deckchair off the Titanic compared to how much co2 motor racing throws into the air
		
Click to expand...


I find it really sad that you make everything about what's needed rather than what's wanted.
That's such a puritanical view from my perspective.

I personally would have preferred to have been aborted after conception than be forced to live in a world where I could only have what I needed and wasn't even to consider or aspire to what I might like or enjoy. And far too many of our species don't even have what they need.  That's irresponsible procreation on the part of their parents, no matter where they live.

Indeed, that's probably the real answer.  Everybody doesn't need to be a breeder.  Don't have kids because it's the societal default mode but rather because you especially want them and have the means to be reasonably certain that they'll have a good life. Condoms are cheap. So are birth control pills--you have an NHS for Christ's sake.

If, in order to be considered socially responsible, you have to live a monastic life, wouldn't it be better to not have this life inflicted on you at all?
That would certainly be my position.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			From the article you highlighted.......

''This means that electric cars *will get greener* as the means to produce and power them begin to leave less of an environmental impact.''
		
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Will get greener, not are greener.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Few "radical" changes that wouldn't be unreasonable but would make a huge difference



Ban all ownership of more than 1 car per person in house .. if you have 2 adults fine 2 cars but 2 for 1? Really
		
Click to expand...

This is particularly absurd.  One person owning two cars adds nothing to pollution.  He/she can't drive both of them at once.
We have a vintage Corvette that we enjoy in the summer months. 
When we're in it, the big Jeep Grand Cherokee gets to take a breather. 
Doesn't burn a milliliter of gasoline sleeping in the garage.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Bug bear of mine is everything is bashing the car.. we have to move away from driving etc . Gov helping electric cars 

Yet we ignore the elephant in the room

The humble gas boiler 

Maybe it really doesn't suit the agenda that the fact if we moved to electric boilers our carbon footprint would drop far more than taking cars off the road 

We ofc would need to get the grid up to standard which I think lies the issue. They can't get the levels of clean energy needed 

I wish we had gone electric boiler but it was going to cost £500-1000 more a year to run.. I'm not going to just pay that until the tech is better 

I want to see clean energy pushed 

Electric boilers replace gas long term , say all new builds maybe?

Then split energy tariffs ..say 16p per kWh for normal electric but 7p per kWh for the boiler use .

That would be a game changer 

10-15 years time when the kitchen is looking tired I'm going to go induction hob and electric boiler and bin off the gas completely


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Thing is that many of the less polluting options are financially out of reach of many. You bring down the cost of fuel efficient cars or even electric cars and you may start the change. Many can only afford older cars on the second hand market and they are the least efficient. It is ok to preach change but many more environmentally sound options are simply out of reach of many, and maybe most, people whilst trying to tax people into better habits will only impact those who can least afford it
		
Click to expand...

I agree.
My point was that it's better to restrict where we can use cars than to tax their use.  There are two big issues with cars: the effect they have on the environment and the reliance on fossil fuel which cannot last.  There have been a lot of comments around how difficult life would be for people to use public transport but in many cases this is being considered in relation to the current infrastructure which is not suitable.  I am suggesting the infrastructure needs changing so that it is a more reasonable option. In large towns and Cities we should be creating urban parking and a.mixture of options for commuting locally: Trams, hire bycles including electric, busses, trains, along with the means for them to operate.  Also lets not forget walking.
So, get in your electric car if you must, drive it to an urban park and use the local transport systems.  We also need to consider reducing the need to commute where possible, I am sure much of it can be reduced.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 10, 2020)

I have been sat in front of the log burner going full pelt reading these... kiln dried though if that really makes a difference


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am going to suggest it is radical changes that are required... Small steps appear to be getting 'us' nowhere...

The question posed was "What's going to get us to leave the car?"... Seems to me most of the responses are excuses as why we can't rather reasons why we can...

Denial, denial, denial...
		
Click to expand...

Denial or some people simply don't live others lives so can't understand their circumstances. I've literally just got in from work, had I used public transport I'd have been 3 hrs late arriving for work and my last bus home would have been 5 hrs before my shift finished. Mrs starts work at 530am tomorrow which is 3 hrs before the first bus. We also don't have a train station where I live, the nearest is 7 miles away and earliest train is 7am so still no good to my wife and last train back is 8pm so still 2hrs before I finish. None of this is denial this is purely facts of our working lives and transport links. 

Only massive changes that will help people where I live is massively improved transport links, but they won't put them in which leaves the necessity for cars. As I've said we're actively looking at what we can do to reduce this but at the moment its not possible but we're hoping within 12 months to be down to 1 car which will be a hybrid.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2020)

We use a gas in wind turbines 23,500 times more  harmful per gram to the enviroment than CO2, we use cargo ships that emit more CO2 than a million cars and yet we still insist on hammering the motorist.
I'm told we need to be more enviromental, so why then do we wring the neck of everything pushing efficiencys to the max so that it causes a much reduced life and need for another new product.
Why can't we build things to last so we don't need the continuous resources to rebuild/remake that item?
Perhaps if business, the politicians and enviromental envangelists were truly honest about the total enviromental impact of every item we might actually see a different direction, and more importantly a different reaction from everyone.


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## Wolf (Feb 10, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			We use a gas in wind turbines 23,500 times more  harmful per gram to the enviroment than CO2, we use cargo ships that emit more CO2 than a million cars and yet we still insist on hammering the motorist.
I'm told we need to be more enviromental, so why then do we wring the neck of everything pushing efficiencys to the max so that it causes a much reduced life and need for another new product.
Why can't we build things to last so we don't need the continuous resources to rebuild/remake that item?
Perhaps if business, the politicians and enviromental envangelists were truly honest about the total enviromental impact of every item we might actually see a different direction, and more importantly a different reaction from everyone.
		
Click to expand...

Not just cargo ships, I watched a C4 Despatches documentary a year or two ago  that sent investigators on P&O cruise ships to assess the amount of particulates they gave off i believe it was the Oceana theybwere on and the measurements that gave off as horrendous, based of that x the amount of cruise liners at sea it worked out that the *daily* emissions of those ships was the equivalent to 1million cars.. Yet the demand for Cruises is going up..


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Denial or some people simply don't live others lives so can't understand their circumstances. I've literally just got in from work, had I used public transport I'd have been 3 hrs late arriving for work and my last bus home would have been 5 hrs before my shift finished. Mrs starts work at 530am tomorrow which is 3 hrs before the first bus. We also don't have a train station where I live, the nearest is 7 miles away and earliest train is 7am so still no good to my wife and last train back is 8pm so still 2hrs before I finish. None of this is denial this is purely facts of our working lives and transport links.

Only massive changes that will help people where I live is massively improved transport links, but they won't put them in which leaves the necessity for cars. As I've said we're actively looking at what we can do to reduce this but at the moment its not possible but we're hoping within 12 months to be down to 1 car which will be a hybrid.
		
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Wolf I’ll just use your post to reply to if you don’t mind, although we’ve all got our own version of this scenario where our live/work/life structure doesn’t easily equal the ‘leave the car’ notion from the OP

So notwithstanding some revolutionary new environmentally friendly form of public/private transport getting rolled out tomorrow, we should also look at the other factors in the scenario that make public transport unviable as an option for so many of us

Is it really down to the public transport on offer (has it really regressed in the last 30 years and if so is any regression due more to people moving to cars and using the public services less or has it in fact expanded but only in areas where it is financially viable)

Is it simply that we live in the wrong place for the work we do
Is it because we work in the wrong place for where we live
Is it because we work at the wrong time of day for the available public transport
Did we choose to live and work where we do at a time we do knowing we would have a dependency on a petrol car/s (& if we really cared then why would we have made such choices)

And because I don’t see us giving up any of these choices I think we need to look at the hours that society is active and while there’s always been some elements of society that work shifts etc these were typically essential (or at least far more essential than they are now) but each day we’re moving closer to a 24 hour world where its seems its necessary for shelf stackers in asda to work night shifts that are incompatible with public transport meaning a car is needed for jobs paying minimum wage, but this surely is not the fault of public transport? (& if you’ll permit me to also give the example of 24 hour gyms,  is this really the fault of public transport that as a society we appear to need a gym to be accessible at 5am?)

So if we’re really moving to a 24 hour world then it makes sense to radically speed up this process across all areas of work & society so that 9-5 is no longer the default and we can fully utilize the resources we've got and at the same time allowing congestion to be reduced, productivity increased and public transport to be run 24hrs making it more productive (with plenty passengers looking to use it) and while I don’t think we’ll get to a point where the world runs 2 or 3 equal shifts there is a helluva lot of unused productivity to be gained by getting people spread through a day especially as they commute & bring an end to blocked roads at rush hour

It can’t hope to eliminate all scenarios where people need a car but it can sure lessen/spread the load on the roads which will inevitably make it cleaner until such time we're ready to replace the car with something else


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Will get greener, not are greener.
		
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EVs are greener in use than P&D cars I don't think that's in dispute. It's the factories that make them need improving.
As the electricity used by the factories becomes cleaner/renewable the cars will become cleaner.
There's a factory right now in Cardiff which is powered entirely by a wind turbine, so it is changing. 

Skip to 8 mins if your not interested in flexible solar panels.







Bunkermagnet said:



			We use a gas in wind turbines 23,500 times more  harmful per gram to the enviroment than CO2,
		
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Data from Vattenfall suggests leakage emissions from Europe’s 100,000 wind turbines were about 900kg of SF6 over the last six years. This is equivalent to 3,525 tonnes of CO2 a year. This includes the release of gases during the reclamation and recycling process. At end-of-life the turbine switchgears are collected and the sulphur hexafluoride gas is reclaimed and reused in new equipment.

By comparison wind energy avoids the emission of 255 million tonnes of CO2 in Europe a year by generating 336TWh of electricity displacing fossil fuels. The SF6 leakage therefore represents around 0.001% of the emissions avoided thanks to wind energy every year.
https://windeurope.org/newsroom/news/wind-energy-and-sf6-in-perspective/ 



Bunkermagnet said:



			we use cargo ships that emit more CO2 than a million cars and yet we still insist on hammering the motorist.
		
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And what are most of them carrying? 
Oil



Wolf said:



			Not just cargo ships, I watched a C4 Despatches documentary a year or two ago  that sent investigators on P&O cruise ships to assess the amount of particulates they gave off i believe it was the Oceana theybwere on and the measurements that gave off as horrendous, based of that x the amount of cruise liners at sea it worked out that the *daily* emissions of those ships was the equivalent to 1million cars.. Yet the demand for Cruises is going up..
		
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Already thought of


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## Tashyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Saw top gear the other night, once more it was fantastic. They had the electric Porsche on which they were waxing lyrical about it. One of the massive plus points away from the car was the fact it could charge within 20 mins to a full charge at a supercharger point. However there are four supercharge points in the country. 
There in lies one of the the problems. Until the government puts its money where its mouth is and get more charging points built, the uptake will be slow.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Data from Vattenfall suggests leakage emissions from Europe’s 100,000 wind turbines were about 900kg of SF6 over the last six years. This is equivalent to 3,525 tonnes of CO2 a year. This includes the release of gases during the reclamation and recycling process. At end-of-life the turbine switchgears are collected and the sulphur hexafluoride gas is reclaimed and reused in new equipment.






Click to expand...

Sorry Bob, but if SF6 is 32,500 times more harmful gram per gram, that 900kg of SF6 equates to 29,250,000 kg or 29,250 tonnes.

Until everyone gets together to give a reasonably accurate life time enviromental impact rating for everything we build and make (and thats a from scratch rating including transport from the very very start to bin at end of life) it is going to be very hard to really trust vested parties.
Telling me the way forward re cars is electric is easy, but prove to me and everyone else that the whole thing is better and you might have an easier time (not neccessarily you...the lobby groups and vested parties). Prove to me/us that the elements required for the batteries creation/disposal is better than anything else, amongst everything in them.
Ultimately, I suspect my request is an impossible ask, and even if it were I doubt the information wouldnt be tainted by vested parties.


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sorry Bob, but if SF6 is 32,500 times more harmful gram per gram, that 900kg of SF6 equates to 29,250,000 kg or 29,250 tonnes.
		
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900kg over a 6 year period is 150 kg per year.
Multiply that by 23,500 kg of carbon dioxide (according to most recent estimates) is 3,525,000kg or 3,885 tons unless my arithmetic is wrong


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## Grant85 (Feb 11, 2020)

Over the past 20 years I think we have gotten further away from using the car for fewer journeys. 

Increasing numbers of housing developments built on the outskirts of towns and cities with no 'services' such as shops, restaurants built into these areas. Very very unlikely that these areas are served with railway stations and absolutely no intention of putting in that infrastructure. 

Similar with workplaces as increasing numbers of workplaces are built or relocated away from town and city centres. 

And retail developments with large purpose built stores and car parking for a few hundred cars have been pro-actively approved by local authorities, ripping the heart out of town centres. Ok, if that's the way it's going - but as well as regenerating the outskirts, you have to fix or re-designate the town centres. Not leave them to rot with empty units and shutters down. 

It's ok if you live in certain spots in bigger cities and work in the city centre, but in Glasgow for instance, we lived in the southside inside the city boundary (4 miles from the city centre). My wife works at the 'super hospital' which is on the same side of town. But to take public transport it would have meant a journey of around 1 hour, and relying on 2 separate buses being on time. But at 0700 it took 12 minutes in the car. In reality, it's not exactly a tough decision to make.

I work in the city centre, and even if I could park for free, it still made a lot of sense to get the bus. 

Now we've moved out a bit, I still have a good train service to the city centre, but my wife would now be faced with a train journey into central, then a bus journey out to the hospital. Probably taking well over an hour, while it takes around 18 minutes by car.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Over the past 20 years I think we have gotten further away from using the car for fewer journeys.

Increasing numbers of housing developments built on the outskirts of towns and cities with no 'services' such as shops, restaurants built into these areas. Very very unlikely that these areas are served with railway stations and absolutely no intention of putting in that infrastructure.

Similar with workplaces as increasing numbers of workplaces are built or relocated away from town and city centres.

And retail developments with large purpose built stores and car parking for a few hundred cars have been pro-actively approved by local authorities, ripping the heart out of town centres. Ok, if that's the way it's going - but as well as regenerating the outskirts, you have to fix or re-designate the town centres. Not leave them to rot with empty units and shutters down.

It's ok if you live in certain spots in bigger cities and work in the city centre, but in Glasgow for instance, we lived in the southside inside the city boundary (4 miles from the city centre). My wife works at the 'super hospital' which is on the same side of town. But to take public transport it would have meant a journey of around 1 hour, and relying on 2 separate buses being on time. But at 0700 it took 12 minutes in the car. In reality, it's not exactly a tough decision to make.

I work in the city centre, and even if I could park for free, it still made a lot of sense to get the bus.

Now we've moved out a bit, I still have a good train service to the city centre, but my wife would now be faced with a train journey into central, then a bus journey out to the hospital. Probably taking well over an hour, while it takes around 18 minutes by car.
		
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Sneck a case in point, more and more housing out of town with no thoughts of Infrastructure, shops, schools ect. let alone any bus serv. They moved the UHI out of town and if you want to get a bus to the hosp you can't get on it as its already full of Students at peak times. plenty of instances of old people left a bus stops in the local press.

hardly anyone walks up here, Council car park is now so full it spills out into the surrounding streets and some of these live 10 mins away at most


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## Grant85 (Feb 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Sneck a case in point, more and more housing out of town with no thoughts of Infrastructure, shops, schools ect. let alone any bus serv. They moved the UHI out of town and if you want to get a bus to the hosp you can't get on it as its already full of Students at peak times. plenty of instances of old people left a bus stops in the local press.

hardly anyone walks up here, Council car park is now so full it spills out into the surrounding streets and some of these live 10 mins away at most
		
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Yes - and this trend of the last 2 decades to move things out of town while urban areas are full or disused will not be easily reversed. 

So my guess is the more likely / practical solution is to press on with electric vehicles and accept that people will always want / value the convenience of their own car. The technology in these will improve to the point they will become much more practical. It may be we have 2 decades of hybrids being the biggest sellers, but in our lifetimes we'll see a full transition.

Air travel is a different matter and it seems we are not close to a realistic solution.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			Wolf I’ll just use your post to reply to if you don’t mind, although we’ve all got our own version of this scenario where our live/work/life structure doesn’t easily equal the ‘leave the car’ notion from the OP

So notwithstanding some revolutionary new environmentally friendly form of public/private transport getting rolled out tomorrow, we should also look at the other factors in the scenario that make public transport unviable as an option for so many of us

Is it really down to the public transport on offer (has it really regressed in the last 30 years and if so is any regression due more to people moving to cars and using the public services less or has it in fact expanded but only in areas where it is *financially viable)*

*Is it simply that we live in the wrong place for the work we do
Is it because we work in the wrong place for where we live
Is it because we work at the wrong time of day for the available public transport
Did we choose to live and work where we do at a time we do knowing we would have a dependency on a petrol car/s (& if we really cared then why would we have made such choices)*

And because I don’t see us giving up any of these choices I think we need to look at the hours that society is active and while there’s always been some elements of society that work shifts etc these were typically essential (or at least far more essential than they are now) but each day we’re moving closer to a 24 hour world where its seems its necessary for shelf stackers in asda to work night shifts that are incompatible with public transport meaning a car is needed for jobs paying minimum wage, but this surely is not the fault of public transport? (& if you’ll permit me to also give the example of 24 hour gyms,  is this really the fault of public transport that as a society we appear to need a gym to be accessible at 5am?)

So if we’re really moving to a 24 hour world then it makes sense to radically speed up this process across all areas of work & society so that 9-5 is no longer the default and we can fully utilize the resources we've got and at the same time allowing congestion to be reduced, productivity increased and public transport to be run 24hrs making it more productive (with plenty passengers looking to use it) and while I don’t think we’ll get to a point where the world runs 2 or 3 equal shifts there is a helluva lot of unused productivity to be gained by getting people spread through a day especially as they commute & bring an end to blocked roads at rush hour

It can’t hope to eliminate all scenarios where people need a car but it can sure lessen/spread the load on the roads which will inevitably make it cleaner until such time we're ready to replace the car with something else
		
Click to expand...

To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable. 

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised. 

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages. 

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for  forum discussion reasons. 

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based  areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue. 

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable. 

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised. 

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages. 

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for  forum discussion reasons. 

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based  areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue. 

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.
		
Click to expand...

People's choice of location to leave can be key. Where public transport is poor a car is essential.

I am very lucky. I could choose to live near a tube station. 5 min drive to my parents . 20 min drive to her parents now they have moved. Can bus to mine in 20 mins ISH 

Work wise it's driveable and I wanted the option of train incase I ever lost my licence again (due to my bipolar there was a time I wasn't allowed to drive so always have that in my mind)

Not everyone is that lucky tho to have options

Seems every problem in life comes back to house prices! If housing cost less people could live closer to work or work closer to home....so really the humble house market is the problem


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.
		
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I agree, people need a cheap, clean, comfortable alternative to get them out of their cars.
In cities it would be easier than in the countryside so if the cars, buses, trucks etc have to be there, it will help to make them cleaner.
As for charging.......
In 2011, there were just over 5,000 charging points.
As of Autumn 2019 there were 26,500
Today there are 30,450
And I quote Carmagazine.........

The gap between fossil fuels and electric car chargers is narrowing at a dramatic rate...

This won't happen overnight, it will take years but people will always want/need cars and electric is the clean, cheap renewable future.
The sun, wind and waves are not going to run out in the next 40-50 years, oil and gas will (according to some sources).


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## Grant85 (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.
		
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The charging infrastructure will come. As I said, hybrids are where it's at and even a battery with capacity of under 50 miles can probably cope with 80% to 90% of journeys for a lot of school runs / shopping / commuting etc. 

And regards local infrastrucure, where I come from in Greenock - there was this big shopping mall, done really well in the late 80s / early 90s. Glass roof, loads of mixed size retail units, dry and comfortable etc. Big M&S, Littlewoods (which became a primark), lots of other fashion, phone, cafes etc. 

Fast forward 25 years and the same local authority gave the go ahead for a big retail development in Port Glasgow, the next town along, but much closer to the Motorway. Big Tesco, B&Q, M&S, TK Maxx, Costa, MacDonalds etc. Now the Greenock mall sits half empty, likely costing the owners a fortune. 

The owners put a plan together to turn a big section of it into office space and accommodation and condense the retail units at one end. 

What happened? -The council knocked back the plan saying they were committed to retail use. Absolutely mental. Even if you let small business rent for free, there is just not enough footfall to sustain profitable retail in probably 60 or so units.


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable.

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised.

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages.

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for  forum discussion reasons.

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based  areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue.

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.
		
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I think you'd agree that the only folks in rural areas were folks born in rural areas who worked in rural areas, unless they made a choice to go to town to seek different work. Its us that’s changed our behaviour 

If & when the population grew sufficiently in a rural area it ceased to be a rural area as businesses and jobs also grew in-line with the increase in population (a slow and graduated process)

The problem is that folks born in towns have been forced to move to rural areas due to stupid house prices in towns which in turn put unrealistic expectations on an inadequate public transport system in rural areas that wasn’t designed for the extra 250/500/1000 homes thrown up in xyz village that now doesn't have a gradual increase in population or associated local business growth

Too many folks have been allowed to line their pockets in both the public & private sectors from mass house building projects in rural areas instead of them being mandated to invest in adequate amenities and transport links back to town


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			People's choice of location to leave can be key. Where public transport is poor a car is essential.

I am very lucky. I could choose to live near a tube station. 5 min drive to my parents . 20 min drive to her parents now they have moved. Can bus to mine in 20 mins ISH

Work wise it's driveable and I wanted the option of train incase I ever lost my licence again (due to my bipolar there was a time I wasn't allowed to drive so always have that in my mind)

Not everyone is that lucky tho to have options

*Seems every problem in life comes back to house prices! If housing cost less people could live closer to work or work closer to home....so really the humble house market is the problem*

Click to expand...


Yup, as I've just posted too, it all started to go wrong selling the council housing stock and not replacing it


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			I think you'd agree that the only folks in rural areas were folks born in rural areas who worked in rural areas, unless they made a choice to go to town to seek different work. Its us that’s changed our behaviour

If & when the population grew sufficiently in a rural area it ceased to be a rural area as businesses and jobs also grew in-line with the increase in population (a slow and graduated process)

The problem is that folks born in towns have been forced to move to rural areas due to stupid house prices in towns which in turn put unrealistic expectations on an inadequate public transport system in rural areas that wasn’t designed for the extra 250/500/1000 homes thrown up in xyz village that now doesn't have a gradual increase in population or associated local business growth

Too many folks have been allowed to line their pockets in both the public & private sectors from mass house building projects in rural areas instead of them being mandated to invest in adequate amenities and transport links back to town
		
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Totally do agree with this post Slab, its to simple to say people should move because you and Paul both nailed it in that the root cause of it is actually  simple  it is the cost of housing in well linked areas that forced people out into more rural areas thus creating a dilemma.

The boom in out of town housing made it more  affordable to actually live within people's means, however the governments and developers didn't get together and look at what can be done to improve access into towns beyond use of cars. That's one of the biggest issues that needs solving before simply telling people they should work different times or in different fields. Work isn't an easy thing to get for many people especially not work that actually covers the cost of living.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Totally do agree with this post Slab, its to simple to say people should move because you and Paul both nailed it in that the root cause of it is actually  simple  it is the cost of housing in well linked areas that forced people out into more rural areas thus creating a dilemma.

The boom in out of town housing made it more  affordable to actually live within people's means, however the governments and developers didn't get together and look at what can be done to improve access into towns beyond use of cars. That's one of the biggest issues that needs solving before simply telling people they should work different times or in different fields. Work isn't an easy thing to get for many people especially not work that actually covers the cost of living.
		
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The house prices are just crazy 

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got 

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid 

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market 

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The house prices are just crazy

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

*But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop*

Click to expand...

That last sentence is spot on for me. We lived in an average to small size 3 bed terraced house in Kent. But the cost of living there in a town where there was all the major amenities, rail Links to London, could easily get by with 1 car etc was simply to costly our disposable income each month was in the tens of pounds sum literally if we were lucky. I didn't have a golf membership or any hobbies outside the gym and I got that free as part of perks of the job. We couldn't afford to relocate anywhere in the south east so moved to Lincoln which had added benefit for Mrs Wolf being closer to her mum (sore point now 😂) 

We sold our house, moved all way up here into a more rural area and ended up with a 4 bed detached house, double garage, lots of other extras to but more than halved our mortgage, others bills and outgoings and are financially more secure despite taking a pay cut as well. We're not alone in that I speak to so many people here that have done the same thing.. Its only now does that put us in position to afford to be able to make more viable energy choices. If we still lived in city/town areas we'd be in no position to make these changes.


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The house prices are just crazy

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop
		
Click to expand...

The UK population has grown by 12 million in 50 years. That’s ave of 240k people a year!

Now you’d think any competent government (even ones that change political parties every so often) could plan a change in housing infrastructure to cope with a population growth of 240k a year, after all 240k is not even a ½ of 1% growth but not in the UK

So we can be sure it is not an unnatural rise in population V shortage of housing stock that has caused the stupid rise in house prices, nationwide you’re only talking about building 80k units per year for families of 3… but now reports say that 340,000 houses are needed every year for 10 years just in England, just to catch up!

Now the number of cars have trebled in that same period from 12m to 34m by 2010, the government has milked an enormous cashpot from this and also from selling the same house several times over, yet up & down the country the same problem exists that its is quicker, cheaper and easier to use a car to commute from just a few miles out of town than it is to use other transport

So no, unfortunately we won’t be getting folks out of their cars anytime soon


edit, got a couple of sums wrong so deleted and re-posted


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Car ownership has been the norm for one hundred years, particularly for those who don't live in major cities.  How far back are you willing to regress?
		
Click to expand...

The norm? Really? None of my grandparents drove and out of the twenty(ish) families, living in the street I grew up in, about three maybe four had access/use of a car... Which, I'd say, was about the norm, over here, for the early 60's... It's my generation that have made car ownership/use the norm...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The "old ways" will never return. People have been encouraged that mobility is good. Kids are dispatched all around the country because university life is "essential". Local factories and manufacturing has all gone, and those that do exist aren't employing locals becasue the jobs are beneath them. We therefore travel distances to work, wives work because they need to now so cars are essential to travel those miles to get to and from work.
There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.
		
Click to expand...

Then we are doomed...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Denial or some people simply don't live others lives so can't understand their circumstances. I've literally just got in from work, had I used public transport I'd have been 3 hrs late arriving for work and my last bus home would have been 5 hrs before my shift finished. Mrs starts work at 530am tomorrow which is 3 hrs before the first bus. We also don't have a train station where I live, the nearest is 7 miles away and earliest train is 7am so still no good to my wife and last train back is 8pm so still 2hrs before I finish. None of this is denial this is purely facts of our working lives and transport links.

Only massive changes that will help people where I live is massively improved transport links, but they won't put them in which leaves the necessity for cars. As I've said we're actively looking at what we can do to reduce this but at the moment its not possible but we're hoping within 12 months to be down to 1 car which will be a hybrid.
		
Click to expand...

Nearly all my working life was spent working 'abnormal' hours... So, I believe, I do have a bit of understanding the circumstances of travel 'out of hours'... Yep, it's not easy and a pain the backside but doesn't mean that in many parts it can't be addressed... Listening on telly, yesterday, Jakarta is hoping [actively setting a target] that sooner rather than later 60% of journys, within the city, will be on public transport... It's a worldwide issue not just a 'local' one...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			The UK population has grown by 12 million in 50 years. That’s ave of 240k people a year!

Now you’d think any competent government (even ones that change political parties every so often) could plan a change in housing infrastructure to cope with a population growth of 240k a year, after all 240k is not even a ½ of 1% growth but not in the UK

So we can be sure it is not an unnatural rise in population V shortage of housing stock that has caused the stupid rise in house prices, nationwide you’re only talking about building 80k units per year for families of 3… but now reports say that 340,000 houses are needed every year for 10 years just in England, just to catch up!

Now the number of cars have trebled in that same period from 12m to 34m by 2010, the government has milked an enormous cashpot from this and also from selling the same house several times over, yet up & down the country the same problem exists that its is quicker, cheaper and easier to use a car to commute from just a few miles out of town than it is to use other transport

So no, unfortunately we won’t be getting folks out of their cars anytime soon


edit, got a couple of sums wrong so deleted and re-posted
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree here .
My opinion is central government had given the power to local authorities to sort major problems out then cut their budgets to the bone.
They gave them the power so they could say “not my problem”.
The buck stops at the top for this and Maggie started the downturn by selling council houses.
There needs to be a law to stop speculators in the housing market not sure how but it needs doing.
even if they wanted to build these houses they couldn’t.
The brick layers aren’t there they never trained any for nearly 20yrs now that’s why we need immigrants to do it.
P,ss up and Brewery comes to mind , with the housing brief.


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Nearly all my working life was spent working 'abnormal' hours... So, I believe, I do have a bit of understanding the circumstances of travel 'out of hours'... Yep, it's not easy and a pain the backside but doesn't mean that in many parts it can't be addressed... Listening on telly, yesterday, Jakarta is hoping [actively setting a target] that sooner rather than later 60% of journies, within the city, will be on public transport... It's a worldwide issue not just a 'local' one...
		
Click to expand...

You tell me how i address working hours outside of public transport, if you can solve that conundrum then we'd gladly change our car usage. Its simply not doable if the transport doesn't exist. 

I agree its a worldwide issue but again you comment is about inside of cities. I agree that should be hugely reduced and will have a huge impact, but the question raised is how do the rest of us outside of those cities improve our usage an lower our emissions in an affordable and environmentally friendly way. That can only be done by either improving transport out to more rural areas or lowering the costs and assistance of helping people into EV or hybrid vehicles. 

Im not trying to be awkward I genuinely want to find ways to improve as I'm sure others do, hence once the next few month's out the way for Mrs Wolf progressing her change of career and me doing the same we can lose 1 car entirely and change my family car over to a hybrid next February. Its small change innthe grand scheme of things but its only coming as result of a huge change in what we do, where we will potentially be living and our way of working.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Nearly all my working life was spent working 'abnormal' hours... So, I believe, I do have a bit of understanding the circumstances of travel 'out of hours'... Yep, it's not easy and a pain the backside but doesn't mean that in many parts it can't be addressed... Listening on telly, yesterday, Jakarta is hoping [actively setting a target] that sooner rather than later 60% of journys, within the city, will be on public transport... It's a worldwide issue not just a 'local' one...
		
Click to expand...

Me to .
worked shifts for 40yrs and last bus was 10pm I finished at 11pm.
I used to cycle or walk 4miles to work until I could afford a car.
I have had one since .but am seriously considering not having one.
but I am used to it and think it would be a backward step.
So an EV looks next for me.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You tell me how i address working hours outside of public transport, if you can solve that conundrum then we'd gladly change our car usage. Its simply not doable if the transport doesn't exist. 

I agree its a worldwide issue but again you comment is about inside of cities. I agree that should be hugely reduced and will have a huge impact, but the question raised is how do the rest of us outside of those cities improve our usage an lower our emissions in an affordable and environmentally friendly way. That can only be done by either improving transport out to more rural areas or lowering the costs and assistance of helping people into EV or hybrid vehicles. 

Im not trying to be awkward I genuinely want to find ways to improve as I'm sure others do, hence once the next few month's out the way for Mrs Wolf progressing her change of career and me doing the same we can lose 1 car entirely and change my family car over to a hybrid next February. Its small change innthe grand scheme of things but its only coming as result of a huge change in what we do, where we will potentially be living and our way of working.
		
Click to expand...

In theory your mileage won't half because you might use the car more but with the hybrid side saving you fuel you could easily reduce your fuel usage by 50% which would be a massive achievement


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			In theory your mileage won't half because you might use the car more but with the hybrid side saving you fuel you could easily reduce your fuel usage by 50% which would be a massive achievement
		
Click to expand...

Currently cycling isn't an option due to distances and work times. My wife's daily mileage for work is 52 miles (26each way) if all goes well at her next to recruitment steps, her mileage will disappear totally as we would be moving to on site housing and she would walk literally into work daily or cycle half a mile at most. My mileage is varied depending which site I need to visit but I'd estimate averages 50ish miles a day. . That would cut to a max of 2 miles a day so again I'd cycle to work, we'd literally remove need for car usage daily so our carbon foot print in a year becomes so much lower. But would still have a hybrid over full EV due to journey we do to visit family. We are pushing ahead full steam with these changes at the moment but its taking a big change to our lives to achieve it but hopefully in as little as 6 months those changes will be in place.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You tell me how i address working hours outside of public transport, if you can solve that conundrum then we'd gladly change our car usage. Its simply not doable if the transport doesn't exist.

I agree its a worldwide issue but again you comment is about inside of cities. I agree that should be hugely reduced and will have a huge impact, but the question raised is how do the rest of us outside of those cities improve our usage an lower our emissions in an affordable and environmentally friendly way. That can only be done by either improving transport out to more rural areas or lowering the costs and assistance of helping people into EV or hybrid vehicles.

Im not trying to be awkward I genuinely want to find ways to improve as I'm sure others do, hence once the next few month's out the way for Mrs Wolf progressing her change of career and me doing the same we can lose 1 car entirely and change my family car over to a hybrid next February. Its small change innthe grand scheme of things but its only coming as result of a huge change in what we do, where we will potentially be living and our way of working.
		
Click to expand...


It's not an individual issue it's a community one... As I said in my original post most have posted why it can't be sorted rather than how... So I stand by my original point, collectively we are all in denial it's a problem that can/should be resolved...


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## Wolf (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			It's not an individual issue it's a community one... As I said in my original post most have posted why it can't be sorted rather than how... So I stand by my original point, collectively we are all in denial it's a problem that can/should be resolved...
		
Click to expand...

I stand by my post many aren't in denial but you don't want to take on board they have their own reasons for why they haven't or can't yet change. 

Its not as simple as merely saying we have to change so do it andnif you have an excuse are in denial. But we will have to just disagree on this


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			But we will have to just disagree on this
		
Click to expand...


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Then we are doomed...
		
Click to expand...

Personally I think Earth will be struck big time by an asteroid before a man-made apocolypse occurs.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			It's not an individual issue it's a community one... As I said in my original post most have posted why it can't be sorted rather than how... So I stand by my original point, collectively we are all in denial it's a problem that can/should be resolved...
		
Click to expand...

Not in denial at all 
The infrastructure isn’t there yet when  it is people will change.
It will take longer when government priority is on a £106 billion railway to get people to London 20 mins quicker.
I go to Scotland once a month. At the moment I would not try that in an EV.
When I can do 500miles non stop in a EV I think that is when it’s sorted and you have no excuse.
Until then it’s not ready.


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not in denial at all
The infrastructure isn’t there yet when  it is people will change.
It will take longer when government priority is on a £106 billion railway to get people to London 20 mins quicker.
I go to Scotland once a month. At the moment I would not try that in an EV.
When I can do 500miles non stop in a EV I think that is when it’s sorted and you have no excuse.
Until then it’s not ready.
		
Click to expand...

500 miles non stop 
You must have a bladder the size of an elephant


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## upsidedown (Feb 11, 2020)

Overheard comment in cinema today at the end of Ad for New all electric Corsa " Yes but you'll still need oil for it "


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			500 miles non stop 
You must have a bladder the size of an elephant
		
Click to expand...

it would have to float to if he wanted to do 500 from Liverpool on one charge


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			500 miles non stop 
You must have a bladder the size of an elephant
		
Click to expand...

You can have a pee in a bush but it won’t charge your car for you.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			it would have to float to if he wanted to do 500 from Liverpool on one charge

Click to expand...

Dalkeith and back .
Aunts lives in a flat so no charging point or a very long extension cable.

And the prices of EV cars I would expect it to float!
Like Bonds Lotus Espree that would be fun.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Dalkeith and back .
Aunts lives in a flat so no charging point or a very long extension cable.

And the prices of EV cars I would expect it to float!
Like Bonds Lotus Espree that would be fun.
		
Click to expand...

done Inverness to Halifax 3 times in the last 6 months, 7 hour drive each way, i never stop, get it over and done with in a one go. took longer flying last time i did that as i had to change trains several times from Manchester Airport, train was even worse


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Dalkeith and back .
Aunts lives in a flat so no charging point or a very long extension cable.

And the prices of EV cars I would expect it to float!
Like Bonds Lotus Espree that would be fun.
		
Click to expand...

They have charging points in Scotland you know, even in Dalkeith


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not in denial at all
The infrastructure isn’t there yet when  it is people will change.
It will take longer when government priority is on a £106 billion railway to get people to London 20 mins quicker.
I go to Scotland once a month. At the moment I would not try that in an EV.
When I can do 500miles non stop in a EV I think that is when it’s sorted and you have no excuse.
Until then it’s not ready.
		
Click to expand...

Believe the £106Bn+ is to get folk OUT of London quicker to do business with folk in the midlands/north ...


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can have a pee in a bush but it won’t charge your car for you.

Click to expand...


i think you have stumbled on the answer.... Piss Power, now wheres that chemistry set and the email address of the patent office


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The norm? Really? None of my grandparents drove and out of the twenty(ish) families, living in the street I grew up in, about three maybe four had access/use of a car... Which, I'd say, was about the norm, over here, for the early 60's... It's my generation that have made car ownership/use the norm...
		
Click to expand...

My grandparents were born in the late 19th Century, arrived here in America at the beginning of the 20th Century,
so of the four, only my maternal grandfather drove...and that was since the 1920s.
*Every single other person on both sides of my family drove his/her own car after that*, save for one cousin who didn't live to reach sixteen.

So my experience is radically different from yours.  I was born shortly after the war and knew of nothing other than people having cars and driving them.
Most of the people I know would tell you basically the same thing.

Now some people who live in huge urban areas like New York City don't drive cars.  Many do, but some don't and others only to leave the city.
Los Angeles is our next biggest city, however,  and everybody drives there--even within the city--because it's so spread out.

Perhaps the UK is a little different, at least in major urban areas. You have much, _much_ better public transportation than we do for one thing.
I would have imagined that people in suburban and rural areas drive and have for generations, but you'd,  of course, know better than I.

I know that the Dutch like bicycles. Most Americans view bicycles as childrens' toys.  I've never ridden a bicycle as an adult. I get a kick out of Father Brown riding one on TV.


As for our being doomed, I'm afraid that's inevitable.  Every species eventually goes extinct and ours will too.  I doubt that the universe will miss us.


One post script.  I started driving at sixteen, but I didn't own my own car until I was twenty.  
My first two years at university, I routinely walked from one end of Boston to the other. Subway tokens were only 20 cents each then, but I enjoyed walking.  There was so much to see.

I never had a weight issue until I was twenty-one.  So I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I'm saying that at least over here, everybody's been driving almost forever.


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 11, 2020)

Cut down on city centre parking and raise the prices. They are still not a deterrent.

If not the above they should be for groups of four plus per car and blue badge holders.

A single car carrying one or two people to a city centre car park is not great. 

Also there is no reason why we need to deliver stock and carry physical  items into and out of city centres by vehicles. There are much better solutions!

IMO the centres should be about experiences, information and social activities not the purchasing of physical items you cannot carry out on a bus in a bag.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 11, 2020)

I forget how this thread began.

What is it that we don't like about automobiles again?
The main thing that I don't like are the tall head restraints on newer cars.  One can't wear one's fedoras.


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?
		
Click to expand...

AS others have said there are limits on weights and sizes and I believe can be driven on a provisional licence as they are single seater vehicles.


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Back in the day, you could drive a three wheeled car on a motorbike licence when you were 16. This covered things like bubble cars and laterly  the Bond Bug. Now to drive a three wheeler you need to be 21!
		
Click to expand...

 The requirement was that the vehicle did not have a reverse gear. I remember having to get out of my mates bubble car and pushing it when we wanted to reverse.


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I have been sat in front of the log burner going full pelt reading these... kiln dried though if that really makes a difference
		
Click to expand...

 When I read about people with log burners I am reminded of the estate I lived on up to the age of 21.

Every house had an open fire and nobody had central heating. The smogs on some winters evenings used to get so bad that you could barely see your hand if you held it out in front of you.


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2020)

I would echo comments about Rural communities.

I live about 5 miles outside of the 4th largest town in Somerset (Yeovil)

The bus to and from the town is once every 2 hours none in the evening and none on a Sunday.

The train station is an additional bus ride to 3 miles the other side of Yeovil

 Most railway lines and stations were removed by Dr Beeching (there is not even a link between Yeovil and the County Town, Taunton, 25 miles away)

If I want to get to Taunton the first bus leaves at 7.15 the next at 9.30. My son went to college in Taunton and he never got home until after 7 at night. If I want to travel there in 'pensioner times' I only get 2 hours in the town before I have to get the bus back.

On a personal note I often have to transport a mobility type scooter how am I going to do that on a bus.

When it comes to electric vehicles at my age how am I ever going to afford one in the first place and the same goes for my 30+ year old daughter who can only just about afford to keep her 16 year old diesel car running (she could not afford a petrol car as she does nearly 25k  a year private mileage).


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## Sats (Feb 11, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			My grandparents were born in the late 19th Century, arrived here in America at the beginning of the 20th Century,
so of the four, only my maternal grandfather drove...and that was since the 1920s.
*Every single other person on both sides of my family drove his/her own car after that*, save for one cousin who didn't live to reach sixteen.

So my experience is radically different from yours.  I was born shortly after the war and knew of nothing other than people having cars and driving them.
Most of the people I know would tell you basically the same thing.

Now some people who live in huge urban areas like New York City don't drive cars.  Many do, but some don't and others only to leave the city.
Los Angeles is our next biggest city, however,  and everybody drives there--even within the city--because it's so spread out.

Perhaps the UK is a little different, at least in major urban areas. You have much, _much_ better public transportation than we do for one thing.
I would have imagined that people in suburban and rural areas drive and have for generations, but you'd,  of course, know better than I.

I know that the Dutch like bicycles. Most Americans view bicycles as childrens' toys.  I've never ridden a bicycle as an adult. I get a kick out of Father Brown riding one on TV.


As for our being doomed, I'm afraid that's inevitable.  Every species eventually goes extinct and ours will too.  I doubt that the universe will miss us.


One post script.  I started driving at sixteen, but I didn't own my own car until I was twenty. 
My first two years at university, I routinely walked from one end of Boston to the other. Subway tokens were only 20 cents each then, but I enjoyed walking.  There was so much to see.

I never had a weight issue until I was twenty-one.  So I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I'm saying that at least over here, everybody's been driving almost forever.
		
Click to expand...

I used to live in the states and everybody drives. It was different when I moved to Chicago and Berkley as the transport system was better. When I lived in Chapel Hill you'd get laughed at if you said catch a bus or a cab!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i think you have stumbled on the answer.... Piss Power, now wheres that chemistry set and the email address of the patent office
		
Click to expand...

Doc Brown sorted it in Back to the future.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe the £106Bn+ is to get folk OUT of London quicker to do business with folk in the midlands/north ...
		
Click to expand...

I belive the opposite.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Cut down on city centre parking and raise the prices. They are still not a deterrent.

If not the above they should be for groups of four plus per car and blue badge holders.

A single car carrying one or two people to a city centre car park is not great.

Also there is no reason why we need to deliver stock and carry physical  items into and out of city centres by vehicles. There are much better solutions!

IMO the centres should be about experiences, information and social activities not the purchasing of physical items you cannot carry out on a bus in a bag.
		
Click to expand...

More roads in Towns and Cities could have street parking removed and the space they take up changed into cycle paths, many roads could become cycle or public transport only. When I see old pictures of Cities like Bristol before WW2 they had extensive electric tram services, maybe they were ahead of their time.

I do understand peoples concerns about commuting from rural areas but why not have a mixed transport system where you drive your car (preferably electric) to one of many park and ride points where you can choose to either use a hire bike or your own bike/ scooter /catch a bus/tram/taxi/boat/ <any other form of environmental friendly transport> to your final destination.  If your destination is out of town then happy days go straight there.

As I said previously, these systems may not be available now but non of them are impossible and may even create jobs.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			More roads in Towns and Cities could have street parking removed and the space they take up changed into cycle paths, many roads could become cycle or public transport only. When I see old pictures of Cities like Bristol before WW2 they had extensive electric tram services, maybe they were ahead of their time.

I do understand peoples concerns about commuting from rural areas but why not have a mixed transport system where you drive your car (preferably electric) to one of many park and ride points where you can choose to either use a hire bike or your own bike/ scooter /catch a bus/tram/taxi/boat/ <any other form of environmental friendly transport> to your final destination.  If your destination is out of town then happy days go straight there.

As I said previously, these systems may not be available now but non of them are impossible and may even create jobs.
		
Click to expand...

This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.
		
Click to expand...

OK but read my post again, I suggested a mixed system where cycling is a part.  Trams, Busses, Walking etc. The hire bike system seem to work well in a number of cities but we need to clear many roads of parked cars. I know people will find objections to change as what they do now is comfortable for them but they need to be educated into what their lives will be like in the future if we do nothing


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK but read my post again, I suggested a mixed system where cycling is a part.  Trams, Busses, Walking etc. The hire bike system seem to work well in a number of cities but we need to clear many roads of parked cars. I know people will find objections to change as what they do now is comfortable for them but they need to be educated into what their lives will be like in the future if we do nothing
		
Click to expand...

I did say it could be the answer but I just look at my home city.
There are no cycleways into the city centre except for down by the Mersey.
They refurbished a major road into the city centre a couple of years ago ( edge Lane )
This has the oldest cycle shop in Liverpool on it but they didn’t put a cycle path in.
You take your life in your hands cycling in Liverpool and probably most city’s the roads are shocking.
There is no plan to remedy this as far as I know.
But a business man will get to London 30 mins faster on hs2 for only 106 billion pounds.
That is not joined up thinking imo.

If you clear the roads of parked cars where are they going to put them?
Terraced houses here have no driveways!


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## USER1999 (Feb 12, 2020)

Pot holes are a nightmare on a bicycle. Worse again on a scooter.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Pot holes are a nightmare on a bicycle. Worse again on a scooter.
		
Click to expand...

My dad was a ambulance driver he told me every day they were picking up people on bikes who swerved to miss a pothole and were hit by a car.
Some were lucky some not!

I really can’t see this changing any time soon.
While government dosnt take roads seriously (except for taxes )nothing is going to change for the general public.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.
		
Click to expand...

It's interesting, and probably a reasonable solution. But, I can imagine public authorities feel like they are banging their head against a brick wall. For example:

Urban areas get congestion with too much traffic, people complain
Free parking changed to pay as you park, people complain
Parking spaces removed, facilities added for cyclists and pedestrians, people complain
Park and Ride services added and improved, people complain (about the lack of parking)

So, to address the complaints, Parking prices reduced or removed, more parking made available, then people complain (about too much traffic and air pollution)

Often, it seems to be the same people complaining as well (based on comments, for example, on our local news website). Basically, what is appears people want is as follows:
Ample Parking
Free Parking
Safe cycling facilities
Safe pedestrian facilities, segregated from traffic and clean air
Dual carriageways on every main road (more specifically, at least 2 lanes in either direction)
Frequent bus transport, undelayed

And, if the authorities do commit to spending the little money they have on any improvement scheme, the people want it done in a few hours and want to experience no disruption at all during the building process. An example some love to give currently is "well, if China can build a hospital in 10 days...". They seem to forget that, the UK could build a hospital in 10 days, if it consisted of sticking a bunch of pre-fabricated cabins together, had an abundance of workers who would be willing to work for terrible money and not worry about their own rights or health and safety, didn't have to worry too much about public opinion on how good a job they did and had the land sitting there ready to be built on.

I'd imagine being a public servant can be an incredibly frustrating and unappreciated job.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It's interesting, and probably a reasonable solution. But, I can imagine public authorities feel like they are banging their head against a brick wall. For example:

Urban areas get congestion with too much traffic, people complain
Free parking changed to pay as you park, people complain
Parking spaces removed, facilities added for cyclists and pedestrians, people complain
Park and Ride services added and improved, people complain (about the lack of parking)

So, to address the complaints, Parking prices reduced or removed, more parking made available, then people complain (about too much traffic and air pollution)

Often, it seems to be the same people complaining as well (based on comments, for example, on our local news website). Basically, what is appears people want is as follows:
Ample Parking
Free Parking
Safe cycling facilities
Safe pedestrian facilities, segregated from traffic and clean air
Dual carriageways on every main road (more specifically, at least 2 lanes in either direction)
Frequent bus transport, undelayed

And, if the authorities do commit to spending the little money they have on any improvement scheme, the people want it done in a few hours and want to experience no disruption at all during the building process. An example some love to give currently is "well, if China can build a hospital in 10 days...". They seem to forget that, the UK could build a hospital in 10 days, if it consisted of sticking a bunch of pre-fabricated cabins together, had an abundance of workers who would be willing to work for terrible money and not worry about their own rights or health and safety, didn't have to worry too much about public opinion on how good a job they did and had the land sitting there ready to be built on.

I'd imagine being a public servant can be an incredibly frustrating and unappreciated job.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct everyone wants what suits them.
Spot on with the land ,there are to many buildings to close together in this country .
Everything is packed into city’s.
That’s why utilities are under the roads when something needs doing there’s chaos.
But if they want us out of our cars they need to sort an alternative , that’s just not happening here anyway.
Quite the opposite councils are closing amenities due to budget cuts.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I did say it could be the answer but I just look at my home city.
There are no cycleways into the city centre except for down by the Mersey.
They refurbished a major road into the city centre a couple of years ago ( edge Lane )
This has the oldest cycle shop in Liverpool on it but they didn’t put a cycle path in.
You take your life in your hands cycling in Liverpool and probably most city’s the roads are shocking.
There is no plan to remedy this as far as I know.
But a business man will get to London 30 mins faster on hs2 for only 106 billion pounds.
		
Click to expand...

Having driven in Liverpool and also Newcastle I can confirm that cycling in either is a good way to die young. Neither are designed for bikes and nothing other than a major re-design will change that. Painting the odd white line for cyclists to ride in for 200m is not going to make it safe. Cyclists need to be off the roads, on wider pavements with pedestrians, clearly marked who goes where. This is what works in the likes of Germany. At the moment we don't have the space for this so the only answer to ban cars from more roads near the centre of cities and adapt the space they are no longer allowed in. It is then back to park and ride, trams and then limited routes for service vehicles. Hugely unpopular idea but tinkering is not going to make the difference we need to make.


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## USER1999 (Feb 12, 2020)

The second hand value of an ICE car will be zip in 2030. So where will they go? Africa is my guess. So some guy in sub Saharan Africa is going to be tooling about in my AMG which he bought for naff all, still polluting, probably driving to the rare metals mine where he works creating fuel for batteries, while I am driving about in an expensive milk float.


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## USER1999 (Feb 12, 2020)

Watford has some pavements with lines down the middle, clearly marked cycles or pedestrians. Sadly, the inhabitants of Watford are incapable of being in the correct lane. This could be down to stupidity, ignorance, phone use, not paying any attention at all, or all of these. My guess is most of them are retarded.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You are correct everyone wants what suits them.
Spot on with the land ,there are to many buildings to close together in this country .
Everything is packed into city’s.
That’s why utilities are under the roads when something needs doing there’s chaos.
But if they want us out of our cars they need to sort an alternative , that’s just not happening here anyway.
Quite the opposite councils are closing amenities due to budget cuts.
		
Click to expand...

They are between a rock and a hard place. In the industry I am in, when I started most, if not all local authorities had multiple members of staff working in their transport and roads departments. You'd have guys skilled in intelligent transport systems, traffic signals, design, etc. Many years experience. However, today most of the highway authorities have effectively lost all their staff. In some cases, they'll have one guy doing a job that used to be done by a dozen. Yes, I'm sure there was a bit of slack 15 years ago in some authorities, but now I bet it is the complete opposite, where they simply cannot keep on top of everything, from reacting to incidents, evaluating general operation, planning improvements where needed, evaluating improvements done by others (e.g. developers trying to mitigate a big development by coming up with a scheme), seeking funding, etc. And, these guys (often just one or two people) are often responsible for the road network in the entire county, not just one town). So, previously you may have had many guys who were experts and certain aspects of the industry, whereas now you have one or 2 people who are basically having to learn the bare minimum of many aspects to the job just to get buy, and therefore finding it difficult to focus on their strengths.

And, that is just in transport. No doubt most other departments are under the same sort of stress? So, I certainly do try and give them some slack when it appears that not a lot is getting done.

In general though, the way our towns and cities have developed it simply a result of how it evolved from the industrial revolution, where the larger towns were always going to originate in the prime areas. If we wiped the entire UK clean and started again, no doubt it would look very different as we could build in hindsight, with all the current technology allowing us to do things differently.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I did say it could be the answer but I just look at my home city.
There are no cycleways into the city centre except for down by the Mersey.
They refurbished a major road into the city centre a couple of years ago ( edge Lane )
This has the oldest cycle shop in Liverpool on it but they didn’t put a cycle path in.
You take your life in your hands cycling in Liverpool and probably most city’s the roads are shocking.
There is no plan to remedy this as far as I know.
But a business man will get to London 30 mins faster on hs2 for only 106 billion pounds.
That is not joined up thinking imo.

If you clear the roads of parked cars where are they going to put them?
Terraced houses here have no driveways!
		
Click to expand...

Read my post again😉   drive to park and ride centres then comute around the town/city/ district from there.  The idea is to stop people from bringing their cars into the centres.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			The second hand value of an ICE car will be zip in 2030. So where will they go? Africa is my guess. So some guy in sub Saharan Africa is going to be tooling about in my AMG which he bought for naff all, still polluting, probably driving to the rare metals mine where he works creating fuel for batteries, while I am driving about in an expensive milk float.
		
Click to expand...

But when oil runs out his car will be stuffed and yours will be running


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## USER1999 (Feb 12, 2020)

Oil won't run out in my lifetime. It may get more expensive, but it won't run out. 

Without the tax on it, oil is still pretty cheap.


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## Imurg (Feb 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Watford has some pavements with lines down the middle, clearly marked cycles or pedestrians. Sadly, the inhabitants of Watford are incapable of being in the correct lane. This could be down to stupidity, ignorance, phone use, not paying any attention at all, or all of these. My guess is most of them are retarded.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like many people travel to Watford from Aylesbury  and vice versa.....


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			The second hand value of an ICE car will be zip in 2030. So where will they go? Africa is my guess. So some guy in sub Saharan Africa is going to be tooling about in my AMG which he bought for naff all, still polluting, probably driving to the rare metals mine where he works creating fuel for batteries, while I am driving about in an expensive milk float.
		
Click to expand...

You can still use your AMG after this date but it will be £20 a litre.
This is how they will persuade us to go EV.
But am sure the oil companies will have something to say on the subject.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Read my post again😉   drive to park and ride centres then comute around the town/city/ district from there.  The idea is to stop people from bringing their cars into the centres.
		
Click to expand...

We have them already they work to an extent.
But it takes 30 mins to get into it if you get a space ,there is very little space to build new ones in major city’s.
But people see less cars in the city centre so think it will be ok to just park there .
Humans are very selfish nothing will put a stop to that.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But when oil runs out his car will be stuffed and yours will be running
		
Click to expand...

Maybe but that’s going to need a big hike in electricity generation.
It all would be Utopia but!
There’s to many lobbyists in this country to let all this happen.
I think the Oil Companies will prove Global Warming is a Myth.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can still use your AMG after this date but it will be £20 a litre.
This is how they will persuade us to go EV.
But am sure the oil companies will have something to say on the subject.
		
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, renewable energy gets cheaper, cleaner and will never run out.
£20 per litre for polluting petrol and diesel or £2 per 'gallon' of clean renewable electricity. Even cheaper if you've got solar.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Meanwhile, renewable energy gets cheaper, cleaner and will never run out.
£20 per litre for polluting petrol and diesel or £2 per 'gallon' of clean renewable electricity. Even cheaper if you've got solar.
		
Click to expand...

Total agreement but we do need to start building them power stations now.
They don’t go up like a Chinese hospital!
Renewable will never supply everything.
Plus “£2 a gallon “ the government are going to need to replace the tax revenue they lose on oil based fuel .
Guess where they will get it from? The EV motorist it might be cheap now but that will change rapidly.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Total agreement but we do need to start building them power stations now.
They don’t go up like a Chinese hospital!
Renewable will never supply everything.
		
Click to expand...

What power stations?


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Renewable will never supply everything.
		
Click to expand...

It does in Norway


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What power stations?
		
Click to expand...

If everyone has a EV the grid is not good enough to all charge them during the night.
The power needed to charge all these cars is not there now.
It might be in the future but that takes planning now.
But am not seeing much of that.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It does in Norway
		
Click to expand...

How many people live in Norway compared to the UK?
Plus Norway obviously have more forward thinking politicians than we do.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If everyone has a EV the grid is not good enough to all charge them during the night.
The power needed to charge all these cars is not there now.
It might be in the future but that takes planning now.
But am not seeing much of that.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully battery technology or hydrogen production will develop such that it wont be a problem. I know its not there at the moment but its getting better.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hopefully battery technology or hydrogen production will develop such that it wont be a problem. I know its not there at the moment but its getting better.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I am sure it will be done eventually but I don’t have much faith in our political leaders to deliver this.
They give us dates 2032 now but we all know it’s hot air.
Next car for me is an EV as hybrid ones will also be banned.
I am not being awkward for the sake of it I just can’t see them doing it in the time they are quoting.
I hope they do but just can’t see it.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If everyone has a EV the grid is not good enough to all charge them during the night.
The power needed to charge all these cars is not there now.
It might be in the future but that takes planning now.
But am not seeing much of that.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you're not looking.
Only 60% of all car owners have off street parking and not every EV plugs in every night plus overnight demand for electricity is almost nothing.

Ev ownership will increase gradually as will the charging infrastructure so those who cant charge at home will charge at work, supermarkets restaurants etc.
Right now there are over 30,000 charging points in Britain and growing every day, just like petrol stations grew when the car first came out.
The difference is businesses dont need to build petrol stations in their car parks



clubchamp98 said:



			Next car for me is an EV as hybrid ones will also be banned.
		
Click to expand...

Only the sale of new hybrids will be banned, you will still be able to buy second hand.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			We have them already they work to an extent.
But it takes 30 mins to get into it if you get a space ,there is very little space to build new ones in major city’s.
But people see less cars in the city centre so think it will be ok to just park there .
Humans are very selfish nothing will put a stop to that.
		
Click to expand...

People may not have the choice in the future. There are massive spaces around towns and cities for building car parking, it really isn't a problem, none of it is a problem, as I said its just people feeling comfortable with the way they live now and fearing change. 

Someone suggested Oil won't run out, does anyone have proof of this even with the projected increases with world population and extra demand on a finite resource where more and more people will want their share of our good life.  And I havent even touched on climate change and how this will impact on our lives.    Changes in the way we live will have to come and we will be affected by it, our only choices are to adapt ourselves or let natural consequence change us in its own manner.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

And here's where they are


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe you're not looking.
Only 60% of all car owners have off street parking and not every EV plugs in every night plus overnight demand for electricity is almost nothing.

Ev ownership will increase gradually as will the charging infrastructure so those who cant charge at home will charge at work, supermarkets restaurants etc.
Right now there are over 30,000 charging points in Britain and growing every day, just like petrol stations grew when the car first came out.
The difference is businesses dont need to build petrol stations in their car parks



Only the sale of new hybrids will be banned, you will still be able to buy second hand.
		
Click to expand...

I hope your right !
I just don’t think it’s so simple.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2020)

When an electric car is more affordable than the regular family saloon then people will look to them 

And in regards charging points 

I can pop to a petrol station and fill up my car in in 2 minutes so a petrol station can serves hundreds of car each day - one charging station takes how long to “fill” up a car ? And will it ever get as quick to charge an Electric car ?

we are years away from 

1. Running out of oil 

2. Developing an electric car that is of the equivalent of a good old petrol car both in terms of cost and ease of use.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And here's where they are

View attachment 29172

Click to expand...

Why is it so hard to find one.?
That’s what is the biggest complaint from EV owners.
Maybe city centre car parks should be EV cars only.
Any fossil fuelled gas guzzler should have to use the park and ride.
That would sell a few more EVs.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I hope your right !
I just don’t think it’s so simple.
		
Click to expand...

I'm no time traveller so I can only guess, but all the indications are it's not if but when.
Once people see more and more charging points appearing and EVs become cheaper than ICE cars, I think the change will happen quite quickly.
Remember it's only 10 years old, things this big take time



clubchamp98 said:



			Why is it so hard to find one.?
That’s what is the biggest complaint from EV owners.
.
		
Click to expand...

Click on the link and search your area

https://www.zap-map.com/live/


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm no time traveller so I can only guess, but all the indications are it's not if but when.
Once people see more and more charging points appearing and EVs become cheaper than ICE cars, I think the change will happen quite quickly.
Remember it's only 10 years old, things this big take time



Click on the link and search your area

https://www.zap-map.com/live/

Click to expand...

I live in a place called Huyton and according to this link there’s one charger.
It’s quite a big suburb.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When an electric car is more affordable than the regular family saloon then people will look to them

And in regards charging points

I can pop to a petrol station and fill up my car in in 2 minutes so a petrol station can serves hundreds of car each day - *one charging station takes how long to “fill” up a car *? And will it ever get as quick to charge an Electric car ?
		
Click to expand...

You're thinking about this the wrong way.
Petrol stations wont be replaced by charging stations with 6 plugs, charging plugs will be all over the place. Outside your local indian, cinema, golf club, gym, starbucks, McDonald's car parks, anywhere you park up for half an hour.
And at service stations.........






Liverpoolphil said:



			we are years away from

1. Running out of oil

2. Developing an electric car that is of the equivalent of a good old petrol car both in terms of cost and ease of use.
		
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1. We are years/decades even from running out of oil but what's wrong with being ready when it does.

2. I disagree.
The cost of buying an EV right now is higher I agree but it is falling all the time but the running costs are a fraction of ICE  cars.
According to Bloomberg, the cost of an EV will be cheaper than an equivalent ICE car as soon as 2022.

As for charging.........
You pop into Asda, park up, plug in, spend half an hour shopping, come out, unplug and you've added 150miles of range for about £6.
Do the arithmetic.
And if you have off street parking, it's even cheaper.
Then you drive home. No need to stop off at the petrol station on the way out.
So its actually quicker to charge while you're shopping.

I've said before and I'll say again, we're not there yet but we're getting there faster than most people think.[/QUOTE]


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You're thinking about this the wrong way.
Petrol stations wont be replaced by charging stations with 6 plugs, charging plugs will be all over the place. Outside your local indian, cinema, golf club, gym, starbucks, McDonald's car parks, anywhere you park up for half an hour.
And at service stations.........

View attachment 29173





1. We are years/decades even from running out of oil but what's wrong with being ready when it does.

2. I disagree.
The cost of buying an EV right now is higher I agree but it is falling all the time but the running costs are a fraction of ICE  cars.
According to Bloomberg, the cost of an EV will be cheaper than an equivalent ICE car as soon as 2022.

As for charging.........
You pop into Asda, park up, plug in, spend half an hour shopping, come out, unplug and you've added 150miles of range for about £6.
Do the arithmetic.
And if you have off street parking, it's even cheaper.
Then you drive home. No need to stop off at the petrol station on the way out.
So its actually quicker to charge while you're shopping.

I've said before and I'll say again, we're not there yet but we're getting there faster than most people think.
		
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

A 7kW home charger significantly reduces the charging time, with little change in the cost of electricity. A full 168-mile charge on the 40kWh Nissan Leaf would take less than six hours, vastly improving convenience for those occasions when you need to top up in a hurry. Over a year and 9,000 miles, the maths between an electric vehicle and a petrol equivalent show some significant savings. At an average economy of 45mpg, a petrol car will cost £1,209 to run in fuel alone. A 40kWh Leaf with a real-world range of 168 miles would cost £300 for the 12 months. It’s also worth noting that you can save even more by investing in solar panels and a household battery to generate and store electricity.


Lifted this from an article about cost to charge a Nissan leaf 

So my fuel costs would drop by £890 a year if I did 9000 miles 

No going petrol station 

Top up overnight whilst I sleep

Defo up for this


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A 7kW home charger significantly reduces the charging time, with little change in the cost of electricity. A full 168-mile charge on the 40kWh Nissan Leaf would take less than six hours, vastly improving convenience for those occasions when you need to top up in a hurry.
		
Click to expand...

Not forgetting the £500 grant from the government towards buying and having the charger installed


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not forgetting the £500 grant from the government towards buying and having the charger installed
		
Click to expand...

Indeed Bob that is very attractive 

I been working all out at work

Say I do 1000 miles a month 

That's about 3 tanks of fuel

£150 at the moment (without rises in fuel)

This would be roughly 10 charges £63 for the month  (without the rises in electric )

Could get on board with that 

I'd defo start to replace the little drives to my mum's with it

My mum uses the bus to come to mine where possible now to try and cut down her use


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## Russ_D (Feb 13, 2020)

Problem in my eyes with EV's is the price to buy. My main car is a Citroen Grand picasso HDi Blue. Emissions wise it's better than my smaller petrol engined car i drive (mrs drivesthe citroen). We need a car that size for the kids and all the other things we do. A low mileage 2018 Nissan Leaf which is 5 seater and not big enough would set us back up to £21K for a decent one or around 15K for an older one.
For an equivalent 7 seater I'd be looking at a Nissan e-NV200 @ £26k and it looks like a van.

Also, i would be dubious of buying used in the first place. Batteries have a finite lifespan. Even the manufacurers are saying the new superchargers reduce battery life. Last year Top Gear bought a 10 year old Nissan Leaf. New it did 120miles, after 10 years it did 30. Insurabce companies classed it technically as a write off.

Many families at the moment cant afford to buy EV's new. What if you live in a terrace? how do you charge? A cable out of a window down to where your car is causing a trip hazzard? EV technology is outpacing the infrastructure to support it.

If they are to start phasing out pertol/diesel in 2035 then they need to up their game and also offer very good scrappage deals. My family needs two cars due to where we work and where the kids go to school. Public transport is not an option for me.
Change needs to happen but it's not going to be soon enough and average people are the ones who will suffer. Just my ranting opinion


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

with the massive amounts of tax raised on fuel, i can't help wondering where they can replace this sum...... ????


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			with the massive amounts of tax raised on fuel, i can't help wondering where they can replace this sum...... ????
		
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Not to mention the loss of car tax due to zero emissions. Those huge shortfalls will come from somewhere.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When an electric car is more affordable than the regular family saloon then people will look to them

And in regards charging points

I can pop to a petrol station and fill up my car in in 2 minutes so a petrol station can serves hundreds of car each day - one charging station takes how long to “fill” up a car ? And will it ever get as quick to charge an Electric car ?

*we are years away from

1. Running out of oil*

2. Developing an electric car that is of the equivalent of a good old petrol car both in terms of cost and ease of use.
		
Click to expand...

Do do you advocate waiting until we start running out of oil before doing anything to replace it?    Is this a problem for you or would you rather take the comfortable route and leave it for your children to face the consequences?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Not to mention the loss of car tax due to zero emissions. Those huge shortfalls will come from somewhere.
		
Click to expand...

Why will electric cars not be taxed?


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Problem in my eyes with EV's is the price to buy. My main car is a Citroen Grand picasso HDi Blue. Emissions wise it's better than my smaller petrol engined car i drive (mrs drivesthe citroen). We need a car that size for the kids and all the other things we do. A low mileage 2018 Nissan Leaf which is 5 seater and not big enough would set us back up to £21K for a decent one or around 15K for an older one.
For an equivalent 7 seater I'd be looking at a Nissan e-NV200 @ £26k and it looks like a van.

Also, i would be dubious of buying used in the first place. Batteries have a finite lifespan. Even the manufacurers are saying the new superchargers reduce battery life. Last year Top Gear bought a 10 year old Nissan Leaf. New it did 120miles, after 10 years it did 30. Insurabce companies classed it technically as a write off.

Many families at the moment cant afford to buy EV's new. What if you live in a terrace? how do you charge? A cable out of a window down to where your car is causing a trip hazzard? EV technology is outpacing the infrastructure to support it.

If they are to start phasing out pertol/diesel in 2035 then they need to up their game and also offer very good scrappage deals. My family needs two cars due to where we work and where the kids go to school. Public transport is not an option for me.
Change needs to happen but it's not going to be soon enough and average people are the ones who will suffer. Just my ranting opinion 

Click to expand...

You've literally summed up my issues with going full EV. Even if things go as planned for us this year meaning we can go down to 1 car, we still will need the main car to be a 7 seater ideally. The Nissan is literally the commercial van but instead they've simply swapped the rear panels for windows. Plus the max range isn't long about to drive and visit family, if you factor in stops it takes nearly an hour for an 80% charge which could possibly mean a 2nd stop, so a 2.5hr drive I can do non stop currently becomes 4.5hrs. 

There's no way im buying 2nd hand because of battery degradation you simply don't know what life is left in the battery. So new becomes the only option which isba whole other dilemma of nothing is affordable. People keep saying the price wilk become lower than comparative ICE cars, but that's not simply being shown by manufacturers, if anything each new one that comes out the cost of buying one is getting significantly higher than other cars.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Problem in my eyes with EV's is the price to buy. My main car is a Citroen Grand picasso HDi Blue. Emissions wise it's better than my smaller petrol engined car i drive (mrs drivesthe citroen). We need a car that size for the kids and all the other things we do. A low mileage 2018 Nissan Leaf which is 5 seater and not big enough would set us back up to £21K for a decent one or around 15K for an older one.
For an equivalent 7 seater I'd be looking at a Nissan e-NV200 @ £26k and it looks like a van.
		
Click to expand...

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna, 44,000miles £8,999




Russ_D said:



			Also, i would be dubious of buying used in the first place. Batteries have a finite lifespan. Even the manufacurers are saying the new superchargers reduce battery life. Last year Top Gear bought a 10 year old Nissan Leaf. New it did 120miles, after 10 years it did 30. Insurabce companies classed it technically as a write off.
		
Click to expand...

The Nissan Leaf wasn't released in the UK until March 2011 so there no way they could have bought a 10 year old car last year. Besides, Nissan has an 8 year battery guarantee.



Russ_D said:



			Many families at the moment cant afford to buy EV's new. What if you live in a terrace? how do you charge? A cable out of a window down to where your car is causing a trip hazzard? EV technology is outpacing the infrastructure to support it.
		
Click to expand...

Please see post no. 206



Russ_D said:



			If they are to start phasing out pertol/diesel in 2035 then they need to up their game and also offer very good scrappage deals. My family needs two cars due to where we work and where the kids go to school. Public transport is not an option for me.
Change needs to happen but it's not going to be soon enough and average people are the ones who will suffer. Just my ranting opinion 

Click to expand...

How will they suffer when price parity could be in 2022. ?


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

BIK is 0% for 20/21 then 1% 21/22 then 2% 22/23, could be raised back to "normal levels" after than, but no doubt this will push company car sales towards EV's, employee will save thousands over the 3 years comapred to petrol/diesel.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why will electric cars not be taxed?
		
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Currently they are tax exempt obviously that could change. But who says it will?


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not forgetting the £500 grant from the government towards buying and having the charger installed
		
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And the extra £300 if you live in Scotland.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna, 44,000miles £8,999




*The Nissan Leaf wasn't released in the UK until March 2011 so there no way they could have bought a 10 year old car last year. Besides, Nissan has an 8 year battery guarantee.*



Please see post no. 206



How will they suffer when price parity could be in 2022. ?
		
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Haven't seen the episode but I guess coukd be possible they got one ofnthe early Japan/US releases that came out in December 2010.  Even so would still have only been a 9 year old car. But that's a severe degradation of battery life though.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You've literally summed up my issues with going full EV. Even if things go as planned for us this year meaning we can go down to 1 car, we still will need the main car to be a 7 seater ideally. The Nissan is literally the commercial van but instead they've simply swapped the rear panels for windows. Plus the max range isn't long about to drive and visit family, if you factor in stops it takes nearly an hour for an 80% charge which could possibly mean a 2nd stop, so a 2.5hr drive I can do non stop currently becomes 4.5hrs.
		
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How far is it in miles to your familly?



Wolf said:



			There's no way im buying 2nd hand because of battery degradation you simply don't know what life is left in the battery. So new becomes the only option which isba whole other dilemma of nothing is affordable. People keep saying the price wilk become lower than comparative ICE cars, but that's not simply being shown by manufacturers, if anything each new one that comes out the cost of buying one is getting significantly higher than other cars.
		
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EV batteries are guaranteed for 8-10 years, depending on the manufacturer.



Wolf said:



			Haven't seen the episode but I guess coukd be possible they got one ofnthe early Japan/US releases that came out in December 2010.  Even so would still have only been a 9 year old car. But that's a severe degradation of battery life though.
		
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1. Are they telling porkies?
2. The batteries don't degrade that fast and even if that one did, it would have been replaced free of charge after 8 years under guarantee


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

My plan if I do get an EV is to get on the Octopus Tariff or similar, 5p per KW/h between 00:30 and 04:30 so 4 hours of cheap charging should give around 100 miles range which should last me a two or three days. This should work out around 500 miles for the cost of a gallon of diesel at the pumps. Supercharging on long trips is 24p per Kwh so roughly 100 miles per gallon. Several charge points are free currently but this will likely change over time. Some companies are apparently charging as much as 69p per Kwh which is much more expensive than diesel. This is not answering the question of how we get people out of cars but at least cuts the emissions and costs.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			with the massive amounts of tax raised on fuel, i can't help wondering where they can replace this sum...... ????
		
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The price of electricity will be taxed to compensate .
That’s pretty clear , so the numbers quoted today to run an EV will rise significantly to match the price of a ICE car.
Private companies will provide the charging points and will charge accordingly.
But I still maintain we need more power stations to service all the new charging points.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How far is it in miles to your familly?



EV batteries are guaranteed for 8-10 years, depending on the manufacturer.



1. Are they telling porkies?
2. The batteries don't degrade that fast and even if that one did, it would have been replaced free of charge after 8 years under guarantee
		
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Depends which family members i visit my oldest daughter is about 160 miles, I've a very spread out family, but parents are currently moving even further away down to Cornwall this year so that would become monumental drive with stops. 

The issue is choice of cars as well currently for me is either the nissan van or hugely jumping in prices beyond anything affordable.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

pool888 said:



			My plan if I do get an EV is to get on the Octopus Tariff or similar, 5p per KW/h between 00:30 and 04:30 so 4 hours of cheap charging should give around 100 miles range which should last me a two or three days. This should work out around 500 miles for the cost of a gallon of diesel at the pumps. Supercharging on long trips is 24p per Kwh so roughly 100 miles per gallon. Several charge points are free currently but this will likely change over time. Some companies are apparently charging as much as 69p per Kwh which is much more expensive than diesel. This is not answering the question of how we get people out of cars but at least cuts the emissions and costs.
		
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The only problem I see in your plan is if the 00.30 04.30am prices rocketed because this then becomes the most used time in the day for electricity, it’s only cheap now as most people don’t use electricity at these times.
All the running costs quoted at the moment will change ,everyone knows that. Or in denial.
Government will need to recoup what they lose in fuel tax Thats basic economics.
As the price to buy an EV comes down the running costs will rise imo.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2020)

pool888 said:



			BIK is 0% for 20/21 then 1% 21/22 then 2% 22/23, could be raised back to "normal levels" after than, but no doubt this will push company car sales towards EV's, *employee will save thousands over the 3 years comapred to petrol/diesel*.
		
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The lease cost is much higher for the company though. Employee wins big time, employer loses.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The lease cost is much higher for the company though. Employee wins big time, employer loses.
		
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As a business man !
Do these EV cars make sense to reps who do a lot of miles and may spend more time in the day waiting in service stations for the car to charge.


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The only problem I see in your plan is if the 00.30 04.30am prices rocketed because this then becomes the most used time in the day for electricity, it’s only cheap now as most people don’t use electricity at these times.
All the running costs quoted at the moment will change ,everyone knows that. Or in denial.
Government will need to recoup what they lose in fuel tax Thats basic economics.
As the price to buy an EV comes down the running costs will rise imo.
		
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Totally agree but only going by what is available just now. Don't think prices will rocket at 00:30 - 04:30 they will just go to standard rate otherwise people will just charge at different times of the day. But once EV's are popular the costs will be totally dictated by the government and the electricity companies just the same as they are dictated by the government and oil companies just now.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

pool888 said:



			Totally agree but only going by what is available just now. Don't think prices will rocket at 00:30 - 04:30 they will just go to standard rate otherwise people will just charge at different times of the day. But once EV's are popular the costs will be totally dictated by the government and the electricity companies just the same as they are dictated by the government and oil companies just now.
		
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Unless you have solar panels.
I'd like to see Boris try and tax the sun


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Unless you have solar panels.
I'd like to see Boris try and tax the sun
		
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I'm sure he'll find a way, they tax everything else.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Unless you have solar panels.
I'd like to see Boris try and tax the sun
		
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Give him time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			As a business man !
Do these EV cars make sense to reps who do a lot of miles and may spend more time in the day waiting in service stations for the car to charge.
		
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Funnily enough I am wrestling with this right now. Pure electric makes no sense, in your example, unless it is a Tesla as they can go all day realistically. The rest are not up to it. Effectively there is 1 choice of car, very high lease price.

Plug in hybrids are the half way house but once you have used up your 30 mile charge you are dragging a very heavy car around with a 1.4l petrol engine. I am trying to find out the real life mpg in those circumstances as that would be me at times. I have heard anything from 30-40mpg on petrol engine alone in those circumstances. If you are doing 20-40k per year then that is a lot more fuel used compare to a 2.0d giving you 50-55mpg (this is what I get from my Skoda Superb auto). From a business perspective you pay a higher lease and will pay more for fuel. It does not add up. Cold hard facts there, not factoring in environmental concerns.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2020)

pool888 said:



			I'm sure he'll find a way, they tax everything else.
		
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That idiot would tax air if he could 

I've just noticed octopus energy are doing a tariff 

14.5p kwph for 04:30-00:30

5p kwph for 00:30-04:30

So if you drove 50 miles a day and scheduled your car to charge every night at 00:30 until full you would pay £1.40 (assuming it charged for all those hours rather than be charged before that) 

Bargain


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## USER1999 (Feb 13, 2020)

I am still not convinced solar power in the UK is going to add much. There is just not enough hours of sunshine for about 6 months of the year.

A lot of dispute over the mis selling of roof panels going on at the moment.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I am still not convinced solar power in the UK is going to add much. There is just not enough hours of sunshine for about 6 months of the year.

A lot of dispute over the mis selling of roof panels going on at the moment.
		
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That's more to do with the tariffs and who owns the roof 

Some were put on leases that meant the roof isn't there's anymore as such
.and others tariffs they were promised changed


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That idiot would tax air if he could

I've just noticed octopus energy are doing a tariff

14.5p kwph for 04:30-00:30

5p kwph for 00:30-04:30

So if you drove 50 miles a day and scheduled your car to charge every night at 00:30 until full you would pay £1.40 (assuming it charged for all those hours rather than be charged before that)

Bargain
		
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If and when the EV cars are in the majority and people are charging their cars on this off peak tariff how long before it’s not off peak.
The more that is used the more needs to be generated .
This means more staff, maintenance crews etc , that not the case at the moment .
So the cost of running these cars will rise to match ICE cars .
I would say when this is up and running there will be no off peak tariffs as there will be a drain on the grid 24/7.


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## pool888 (Feb 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That idiot would tax air if he could

I've just noticed octopus energy are doing a tariff

14.5p kwph for 04:30-00:30

5p kwph for 00:30-04:30

So if you drove 50 miles a day and scheduled your car to charge every night at 00:30 until full you would pay £1.40 (assuming it charged for all those hours rather than be charged before that)

Bargain
		
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Yes that's the tariff I was mentioning earlier. I believe they are also trialing a variable rate tariff depending in grid load, i.e when it's at peak such as early evening when everyone gets home and puts the cooker and kettle on it's more expensive, but very cheap (sometimes less than 1p Kw/h) during hours when there is excess electric in the grid to get rid of and different rates all through the day depending on load. Some people are benefiting by storing up electric in batteries at cheap rates then using it at peak rates even with the system losses. There is no doubt prices will change to refect the market, the Government takes in huge amounts of its money from fuel duty and will need to recover it from somewhere, most likely whatever fuels cars are using to power them in the future which looks like electricity at the moment. Running an electric car will not stay cheap for long once the incentives have got enough people to swap over the taxes will come.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2020)

pool888 said:



			Yes that's the tariff I was mentioning earlier. I believe they are also trialing a variable rate tariff depending in grid load, i.e when it's at peak such as early evening when everyone gets home and puts the cooker and kettle on it's more expensive, but very cheap (sometimes less than 1p Kw/h) during hours when there is excess electric in the grid to get rid of and different rates all through the day depending on load. Some people are benefiting by storing up electric in batteries at cheap rates then using it at peak rates even with the system losses. There is no doubt prices will change to refect the market, the Government takes in huge amounts of its money from fuel duty and will need to recover it from somewhere, most likely whatever fuels cars are using to power them in the future which looks like electricity at the moment. Running an electric car will not stay cheap for long once the incentives have got enough people to swap over the taxes will come.
		
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That's the thing whilst EV vechiles in the short term will be cheaper in the long term it's about shifting away from using the fossil fuels rather than impacting our wallets

Yes I prob will be able to run a car for 5k a year including fuel, insurance and lease which will be great 

But that car will also be carbon neutral


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2020)

I wonder how much the government wastes spends on subsidising coal, gas and oil powered power stations at the moment.



clubchamp98 said:



			If and when the EV cars are in the majority and people are charging their cars on this off peak tariff how long before it’s not off peak.
The more that is used the more needs to be generated .
This means more staff, maintenance crews etc , that not the case at the moment .
So the cost of running these cars will rise to match ICE cars .
I would say when this is up and running there will be no off peak tariffs as there will be a drain on the grid 24/7.
		
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And my reply to you in post no.198 was
''Only 60% of all car owners have off street parking and not every EV plugs in every night plus overnight demand for electricity is almost nothing.''
And in years to come when renewable energy continues to increase its output, there will be plenty of cheaper, cleaner power


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Don't get me wrong the Bill Gates foundation does some excellent work but! - He's now ordered a new boat at a monetary cost of $600m - the Environmental impact of construction is not stated. It will need a crew of 20 odd and room for 14 guests!

However, not to worry as everything is fine because it will be hydrogen powered by fuel cells!!

The sources of his supply of hydrogen are unknown so there's are diesel driven generator systems as 'back-up' !! He has previously chartered boats but wanted a new one.

Its his money but it is nice to know that some of us plebs in the real world are taking climate responsibility seriously.
		
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I think this has been proven to be fake news, confirmed by the hydrogen boat company involved.

As to your point, no disagreement there!

We need to fix transport for all and not force others deeper into poverty just to get to work.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I wonder how much the government wastes spends on subsidising coal, gas and oil powered power stations at the moment.




''Only 60% of all car owners have off street parking and not every EV plugs in every night plus overnight demand for electricity is almost nothing.''

It’s nothing now but it won’t stay that way even if 50% of EV car owners plug it in at night.
You prove my point about the power stations we need so we can get rid of the old ones.
		
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## Russ_D (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna, 44,000miles £8,999


. ?
		
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Too small. And dubious battery life with it being used. How many times will that have been charged and topped up in those 44k miles?

Self charging hybrids are a much more attractive option for me.


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## Russ_D (Feb 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Haven't seen the episode but I guess coukd be possible they got one ofnthe early Japan/US releases that came out in December 2010.  Even so would still have only been a 9 year old car. But that's a severe degradation of battery life though.
		
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 Was on the first series with Paddy, Freddie and Chris. Chances are it may have been grey import. Just remeber it being hideous. They were shocked that the battery would degrade that much over 10 years but like any rechargable battery the more you charge the less they hold charge.


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Was on the first series with Paddy, Freddie and Chris. Chances are it may have been grey import. Just remeber it being hideous. They were shocked that the battery would degrade that much over 10 years but like any rechargable battery the more you charge the less they hold charge.
		
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Russ_D said:



			Too small. And dubious battery life with it being used. How many times will that have been charged and topped up in those 44k miles?
		
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I know it's too small for you but I was just pointing out for anyone else interested the price is nearer £9,000 than £15,000
And the battery comes with an 8 year (100,000 mile) warranty


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## Wolf (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:










I know it's too small for you but I was just pointing out for anyone else interested the price is nearer £9,000 than £15,000
And the battery comes with an 8 year (100,000 mile) warranty
		
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Did you manage to watch that whole video, god he was boring and terrible to watch, he didn't really get the point across very well either.

Would be better explaining how you avoid buying one with poor battery chemistry rather than justifying how long it takes to have a wee and walk to a service station from your car. How to look for a good used one etc

Still so much more to do with EV for family sized cars with decent range and variety that's not a van before I'd consider one not to mention the total disparity in costs. They're not going to comedown in price new as much as people think.

I'll stick with looking for hydrid options for now


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:










I know it's too small for you but I was just pointing out for anyone else interested the price is nearer £9,000 than £15,000
And the battery comes with an 8 year (100,000 mile) warranty
		
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Battery's get a health check on the service anyways , so you know if it's rubbish or not


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Did you manage to watch that whole video, god he was boring and terrible to watch, he didn't really get the point across very well either.

Would be better explaining how you avoid buying one with poor battery chemistry rather than justifying how long it takes to have a wee and walk to a service station from your car. How to look for a good used one etc

Still so much more to do with EV for family sized cars with decent range and variety that's not a van before I'd consider one not to mention the total disparity in costs. They're not going to comedown in price new as much as people think.

I'll stick with looking for hydrid options for now
		
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Wasn't he just.
But then I remember, he's a car salesman, not a tv presenter so I let him off a bit.
Typical Top Gear though, find the worst/oldest car and make it look as if all electric cars are the same.

As for cost, the fist Leaf started at £28,350 10 years ago
The newest starts at 26,345 and is a lot better car

The hybrid does make a lot of sense and will work well until the newer EVs come down in price


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## Wolf (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Wasn't he just.
But then I remember, he's a car salesman, not a tv presenter so I let him off a bit.
Typical Top Gear though, find the worst/oldest car and make it look as if all electric cars are the same.

As for cost, the fist Leaf started at £28,350 10 years ago
The newest starts at 26,345 and is a lot better car
		
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I take any top gear car review with a pinch of salt, they tend to only really talk up the cars most people can't afford and pick holes in things the average motorist needs. 

No doubt the new leaf is a better car and price has come down but to many that may still be to much. I think that's a decent price for a very good good car. Problem I have is doesn't have enough seats. The larger options are still basically non existent unless you have mega money


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Wasn't he just.
But then I remember, he's a car salesman, not a tv presenter so I let him off a bit.
Typical Top Gear though, find the worst/oldest car and make it look as if all electric cars are the same.

As for cost, the fist Leaf started at £28,350 10 years ago
The newest starts at 26,345 and is a lot better car

The hybrid does make a lot of sense and will work well until the newer EVs come down in price
		
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This is what the world is up against though ...people just either stuck in their ways or won't open their mind / listen 

I had a long chat with my mate last night after i said I was getting a leaf next 

But what if you need to go further .. I have my other car for that .. we have 2 cars in the family so long trips just petrol .. work electric 

Well if you want to do your bit why not just train 
. Well takes 2 hours a day longer so this ways a lot more effective 

The battery wears down over the years .. it's a 2 year lease

They have no power behind them... 150bhp and 0-60 in 8 seconds 

Well I don't see why you want to limit your driving distance .... Again I have another car it's just for work and around town 

This went on for half an hour 

Finished with well unless China and USA change there is no point 

I don't care what they do it's what I wanna do.. if we all think like this surely nothing will ever change


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Typical Top Gear though, find the worst/oldest car and make it look as if all electric cars are the same.
		
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They do that generally, it is usually done in extremes to make a daft point. It is a shame as it does have some influence but we have to remember it is entertainment, not factual.


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 14, 2020)

For the number of long journeys a year I make I think renting a petrol car would be feesable. I do about 8500 a year and 1500 of that are 3 or 4 holiday car trips, the remaining 7000 is short commutes of 20 miles a day. (which I am thinking of switching some to cycling in the summer).


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## williamalex1 (Feb 16, 2020)

We had battery powered milk floats in the 40/50s, before modern technology


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 17, 2020)

I am all for electric cars and they will be the future. However, until the battery technology is good enough to permit the battery recharging to be done by, if necessary, carrying the battery indoors, it won't become the main fuel.
Look around you. How many live in flats, terraced houses, etc. 
No way can they charge overnight, or even for 2 hours or so.
But, the technology is coming.( it might be already known to be possible)
And don't be surprised if the Government make further announcement about the date on which new cars must  be all electric


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am all for electric cars and they will be the future. However, until the battery technology is good enough to permit the battery recharging to be done by, if necessary, carrying the battery indoors, it won't become the main fuel.
Look around you. How many live in flats, terraced houses, etc.
No way can they charge overnight, or even for 2 hours or so.
But, the technology is coming.( it might be already known to be possible)
And don't be surprised if the Government make further announcement about the date on which new cars must  be all electric
		
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Ev ownership will increase gradually as will the charging infrastructure so those who cant charge at home will charge at work, supermarkets, restaurants, multi-storey car parks, cinemas, golf clubs, pubs, swimming pools, high street, etc etc etc.

Right now there are over 30,500 charging points in Britain and growing every day, just like petrol stations grew when the first cars came out.
The difference is businesses dont need to build petrol stations in their car parks.




So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ev ownership will increase gradually as will the charging infrastructure so those who cant charge at home will charge at work, supermarkets, restaurants, multi-storey car parks, cinemas, golf clubs, pubs, swimming pools, high street, etc etc etc.

Right now there are over 30,500 charging points in Britain and growing every day, just like petrol stations grew when the first cars came out.
The difference is businesses dont need to build petrol stations in their car parks.

View attachment 29208


So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?
		
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That sounds like very good economics.
But in the future the tax on the petrol will be transferred to the electricity and it will cost what it costs now plus tax.
If not where is the government going to get the finances to run the infrastructure?


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That sounds like very good economics.
But in the future the tax on the petrol will be transferred to the electricity and it will cost what it costs now plus tax.
If not where is the government going to get the finances to run the infrastructure?
		
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I'm sure there are clever people working on this right now.
It may mean we pay so much per mile, happy days, that's the way it should be.
And the govt. will save a fortune in subsidies it currently pays out when the oil, coal and gas power stations are shut down.

''Renewable energy sources provided more electricity to UK homes and businesses than fossil fuels for the first time over the last quarter, according to new research.

The renewables record was set in the third quarter of this year (2019) after its share of the electricity mix rose to 40%.

*It is the first time that electricity from British windfarms, solar panels and renewable biomass plants has surpassed fossil fuels since the UK’s first power plant fired up in 1882*.''

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...y-overtakes-fossil-fuels-in-uk-for-first-time

And in answer to your next question, no, we wont need to build new power stations and we can stop buying millions of barrels of oil.
That will save a few quid


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ev ownership will increase gradually as will the charging infrastructure so those who cant charge at home will charge at work, supermarkets, restaurants, multi-storey car parks, cinemas, golf clubs, pubs, swimming pools, high street, etc etc etc.

Right now there are over 30,500 charging points in Britain and growing every day, just like petrol stations grew when the first cars came out.
The difference is businesses dont need to build petrol stations in their car parks.

View attachment 29208


So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?
		
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The picture you show is great, is that somewhere like The Netherlands? One of the issues right now is that view does not exist here nor do I see any sign of it happening. Supermarkets, shopping centres etc currently have 2-3 charging points and they are not rushing to fit another 50. Why would they unless they are given hefty grants to do so. We need the DoT to really step in and roll sights like that across the country, if they are serious about electric cars.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2020)

A hotel I was at in Sweden had a car park exactly like the picture.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The picture you show is great, is that somewhere like The Netherlands? One of the issues right now is that view does not exist here nor do I see any sign of it happening. Supermarkets, shopping centres etc currently have 2-3 charging points and they are not rushing to fit another 50. Why would they unless they are given hefty grants to do so. We need the DoT to really step in and roll sights like that across the country, if they are serious about electric cars.
		
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I agree.

''I'm not forking out for 50 charging points, no-one uses them''

''I'm not buying an electric car, there's nowhere to charge them''


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			A hotel I was at in Sweden had a car park exactly like the picture.
		
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And if you go to Oslo airport, every parking space has access to a charger


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## Russ_D (Feb 17, 2020)

May have just found the ideal EV. Has space for the kids/Golf clubs, small, nippy and cheap to run. Doddle to park as well.


Might not do too well in the wind and rain


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure there are clever people working on this right now.
It may mean we pay so much per mile, happy days, that's the way it should be.
And the govt. will save a fortune in subsidies it currently pays out when the oil, coal and gas power stations are shut down.

''Renewable energy sources provided more electricity to UK homes and businesses than fossil fuels for the first time over the last quarter, according to new research.

The renewables record was set in the third quarter of this year (2019) after its share of the electricity mix rose to 40%.

*It is the first time that electricity from British windfarms, solar panels and renewable biomass plants has surpassed fossil fuels since the UK’s first power plant fired up in 1882*.''

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...y-overtakes-fossil-fuels-in-uk-for-first-time

And in answer to your next question, no, we wont need to build new power stations and we can stop buying millions of barrels of oil.
That will save a few quid
		
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So do you think renewables are not subsidised?
If the old power stations go where do we get the energy to charge all the new cars?
Renewable only does 40% so where’s all the power coming from.
Charging points are non existent where I live 5 miles out of a major City.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			A hotel I was at in Sweden had a car park exactly like the picture.
		
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What no cars?
There brand new you can see the oil stains on the floor of the bays.
So every car park will need major works to upgrade them .
It’s not going to happen in time, why political parties put time scales on these things amazes me.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			May have just found the ideal EV. Has space for the kids/Golf clubs, small, nippy and cheap to run. Doddle to park as well.
View attachment 29209

Might not do too well in the wind and rain 

Click to expand...

Wouldn’t fancy a 200 mile round trip in that in storm Dennis.
It will be ok for summer it’s got a sun roof.!


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2020)

Well I don't intend to replace my 2 yr old 2ltr petrol Mazda any time for a long time. Since the Govt have now decided 2032 is the banning date, I don't see any way the neccessary infrastructure can be built and reinforced between now and then. I don't believe people really understand the requirements on their electric system, nor do I beleive the arguement that electricity is and will always be cheaper. I remember that cobblers that was thrown about when water meters were made compulsory......my bills are dearer than before the meter was fitted and we use less water year on year. Of course a private company wants to make less money and have more people using less of their product, I mean thats how they survive and shareholders get rerturns on their money.......

The only way forward I see is hydrogen fuel cell, where we have filling stations as now and there is no worry about your supply not being there (power cuts this last weekend anyone........our way did).

Something that's also forgotten is the money that will be lost to the Exchequer is the reduction of tax from peoples jobs lost from dealers, garages and the whole third party supply market. If cars only need a brake service where is the work for garages with oil changes and the like?

The evangelists can shout as much as they like, but choosing something with a limited life doesn't seem the right answer unless of course damaging the enviroment in the search for ore products from the earth isn't considered because it's not our country being dug up.
Is it just our area we are concerned about or the whole planet?


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## Russ_D (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Wouldn’t fancy a 200 mile round trip in that in storm Dennis.
It will be ok for summer it’s got a sun roof.!

Click to expand...

Just think of the wheelies you could pull with enough weight in the back!


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

Wow, you guys really don't want electric cars.

The ban in 2032/35 is for the sale of new cars. Buy a new petrol/diesel car before then and drive it as long as you want.

In 2010, renewable energy supplied the UK with 6.5% of the energy used. Last year it was 40%.
As the numbers of electric cars *gradually* increases, so will CLEAN, CHEAP renewable energy *gradually* increase.

''Thanks to falling costs, unsubsidized onshore wind and solar have become the cheapest sources of electricity generation in nearly all major economies in the world, including India and China, according to a new report by Bloomberg NEF. '' *Britain lead the world *in offshore wind energy.

Today, there are 30,500 charging points in the uk. This number increases by just under 20 per day.
It may not sound many but if that rate *doesn't* increase, that's 103,500 charging points by 2030.
At the moment, there are 8,350 petrol stations.

Scientists all over the world are working hard to make batteries that don't require minerals to be dug out of Chile by children.

And as for garage mechanics, they will still have work as petrol and diesels will still be around for decades to come.

Finally, I'm not sure I like being referred to as an evangelist as that has religious connetations.
Im not telling stories about talking snakes, miracles and a big guy in the sky with a beard, I'm just updating some people whose opinions may be a bit out of date.


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## Russ_D (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Wow, you guys really don't want electric cars.

The ban in 2032/35 is for the sale of new cars. Buy a new petrol/diesel car before then and drive it as long as you want.

In 2010, renewable energy supplied the UK with 6.5% of the energy used. Last year it was 40%.
As the numbers of electric cars *gradually* increases, so will CLEAN, CHEAP renewable energy *gradually* increase.

''Thanks to falling costs, unsubsidized onshore wind and solar have become the cheapest sources of electricity generation in nearly all major economies in the world, including India and China, according to a new report by Bloomberg NEF. ''

Today, there are 30,500 charging points in the uk. This number increases by just under 20 per day.
It may not sound many but if that rate *doesn't* increase, that's 103,500 charging points by 2030.
At the moment, there are 8,350 petrol stations.

Scientists all over the world are working hard to make batteries that don't require minerals to be dug out of Chile by children.

And as for garage mechanics, they will still have work as petrol and diesels will still be around for decades to come.

Finally, I'm not sure I like being referred to as an evangelist as that has religious connetations.
Im not telling stories about talking snakes, miracles and a big guy in the sky with a beard, I'm just updating some people whose opinions may be a bit out of date.
		
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Nothing against electric cars as such. Just dont think its the only (or most) viable option. When i come to replace my old 09 focus i'll probably have to look at either self charging hybrid or electric. I just get annoyed by the family member who preaches all the time on facebook that he can do "x" of miles on a full charge and only has to stop once at Lidl to charge on his way back from Yorkshire. Waiting for him to announce he's turning vegan next.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Just think of the wheelies you could pull with enough weight in the back!
		
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Wouldn’t leave my clubs in it though while having a drink in the clubhouse.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

O


bobmac said:



			Wow, you guys really don't want electric cars.

The ban in 2032/35 is for the sale of new cars. Buy a new petrol/diesel car before then and drive it as long as you want.

In 2010, renewable energy supplied the UK with 6.5% of the energy used. Last year it was 40%.
As the numbers of electric cars *gradually* increases, so will CLEAN, CHEAP renewable energy *gradually* increase.

''Thanks to falling costs, unsubsidized onshore wind and solar have become the cheapest sources of electricity generation in nearly all major economies in the world, including India and China, according to a new report by Bloomberg NEF. '' *Britain lead the world *in offshore wind energy.

Today, there are 30,500 charging points in the uk. This number increases by just under 20 per day.
It may not sound many but if that rate *doesn't* increase, that's 103,500 charging points by 2030.
At the moment, there are 8,350 petrol stations.

Scientists all over the world are working hard to make batteries that don't require minerals to be dug out of Chile by children.

And as for garage mechanics, they will still have work as petrol and diesels will still be around for decades to come.

Finally, I'm not sure I like being referred to as an evangelist as that has religious connetations.
Im not telling stories about talking snakes, miracles and a big guy in the sky with a beard, I'm just updating some people whose opinions may be a bit out of date.
		
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On the contrary I DO want an EV but the infrastructure for it isn’t there.
It will be in the future ,but I will have given up driving by then I think.
Petrol costs about 20p a litre the rest is tax . (Bit of a guess )
Electricity will be ??kwt plus tax that is the cold economic truth so it’s going to be about the same.
Taxes per mile non starter ,Transport companies would cease to exist.
I hope it does come ,but it won’t be in my driving time sadly.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Today, there are 30,500 charging points in the uk. This number increases by just under 20 per day.
It may not sound many but if that rate *doesn't* increase, that's 103,500 charging points by 2030.
At the moment, there are 8,350 petrol stations.
		
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Problem though is that a single petrol station can refuel up to 12 vehicles within 10 mins tops. A single charging point charges 1 car for however long it takes
I understand that oil is  running out and we need to find a more sustainable fuel source, I just don't see electric as that long term solution whereas hydrogen fuel cell is to me.
Change petrol stations to hydrogen refuelling points and you pass over range issues and still have clean exhausts. How is that not a better long term solution?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Problem though is that a single petrol station can refuel up to 12 vehicles within 10 mins tops. A single charging point charges 1 car for however long it takes
I understand that oil is  running out and we need to find a more sustainable fuel source, I just don't see electric as that long term solution whereas hydrogen fuel cell is to me.
Change petrol stations to hydrogen refuelling points and you pass over range issues and still have clean exhausts. How is that not a better long term solution?
		
Click to expand...

A mix of both will probably happen what’s going to fuel all the power stations if oil and coal can’t be used .?
Renewable won’t do it all.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			A mix of both will probably happen what’s going to fuel all the power stations if oil and coal can’t be used .?
Renewable won’t do it all.
		
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Do you know how much much of our energy use is created by coal?


Bunkermagnet said:



			Problem though is that a single petrol station can refuel up to 12 vehicles within 10 mins tops. A single charging point charges 1 car for however long it takes
I understand that oil is  running out and we need to find a more sustainable fuel source, I just don't see electric as that long term solution whereas hydrogen fuel cell is to me.
Change petrol stations to hydrogen refuelling points and you pass over range issues and still have clean exhausts. How is that not a better long term solution?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying petrol stations will disappear, I'm saying the charging points will be in the car parks, 

In case you missed it...post 254

''So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?''


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## pauljames87 (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			O

On the contrary I DO want an EV but the infrastructure for it isn’t there.
It will be in the future ,but I will have given up driving by then I think.
Petrol costs about 20p a litre the rest is tax . (Bit of a guess )
Electricity will be ??kwt plus tax that is the cold economic truth so it’s going to be about the same.
Taxes per mile non starter ,Transport companies would cease to exist.
I hope it does come ,but it won’t be in my driving time sadly.
		
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Electric ranges 

Say the average is 14p per kWh including tax 

Not a lot no but even the tax add up if everyone started to use them ..

More electric used means more tax paid on it


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you know how much much of our energy use is created by coal?


I'm not saying petrol stations will disappear, I'm saying the charging points will be in the car parks,

In case you missed it...post 254

''So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?''
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest you would need a charging point at every single parking space, at all car parks public or private because you know that the selfishness of society would mean that once someone car is being charged it's staying there until they leave. It already happens in London.....electric cars left on the charging point fully charged but blocking anyone else from using it.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I would suggest you would need a charging point at every single parking space, at all car parks public or private because you know that the selfishness of society would mean that once someone car is being charged it's staying there until they leave. It already happens in London.....electric cars left on the charging point fully charged but blocking anyone else from using it.
		
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You have one charger per 4 cars


And when you've finished your shopping you go home.


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## Slab (Feb 17, 2020)

Has anyone worked out how many charging points will be needed even if every one is used at 50 %of its capacity (never going to reach this) to do the 30 million cars in the UK reach day?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 17, 2020)

At our local new[ish] Asda there's at least fifty charging points... Can't say I've seen more than a handful in use at any time... Might be different of an evening... Gonna need a pretty rapid change, in attitude, for change to come about... Can't see us being in the market for one anytime soon... In retirement we've been more than happy to make use of public transport...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you know how much much of our energy use is created by coal?


I'm not saying petrol stations will disappear, I'm saying the charging points will be in the car parks,

In case you missed it...post 254

''So you go shopping to Asda, park up, spend 30mins shopping, then drive to the garage, fill up 200 miles worth of petrol/diesel cost £25-£30, then drive home.
OR

You go shopping to Asda, park up, PLUG IN, spend 30mins shopping, meanwhile your car downloads 200 miles of range cost £6-£8 then you drive home.
Which is quicker, cleaner and cheaper?''
		
Click to expand...

Was thinking more in world terms for coal / oil fired power stations.
Most people won’t charge in Asda couple of miles from home.
They will be the stop off points for long journeys , motorway services for a start.
That’s what is putting me off ,real people stories of trying to find them on long journeys.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I would suggest you would need a charging point at every single parking space, at all car parks public or private because you know that the selfishness of society would mean that once someone car is being charged it's staying there until they leave. It already happens in London.....electric cars left on the charging point fully charged but blocking anyone else from using it.
		
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An alarm system that charges them £20 hour for any time over full charge .
Can’t be that hard.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			An alarm system that charges them £20 hour for any time over full charge .
Can’t be that hard.
		
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You'd think so, but they havent and people would complain they are being penalised.....


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Was thinking more in world terms for coal / oil fired power stations.
Most people won’t charge in Asda couple of miles from home.
		
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They will if they can't charge at home.



clubchamp98 said:



			They will be the stop off points for long journeys , motorway services for a start.
That’s what is putting me off ,real people stories of trying to find them on long journeys.
		
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And you'd  be right to be put off at the moment.
But then if you do lots of long journeys, then you wait a few years until the number of chargers increases and the range of the cars gets to 300-400 miles.

Electric cars are still in their infancy but are already up to 250 mile range.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			They will if they can't charge at home.



And you'd  be right to be put off at the moment.
But then if you do lots of long journeys, then you wait a few years until the number of chargers increases and the range of the cars gets to 300-400 miles.

Electric cars are still in their infancy but are already up to 250 mile range.
		
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I don’t do a lot of long journeys .
Scotland once a month.
I like the look of the EV golf had a test drive it’s lovely.
I might just do it at the end of the year.
If I wait to long I may never do it.
But the price is a big barrier atm.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 17, 2020)

The problems are just not with our overuse of fossil fuels... But also with our consumption of other resources and how we set them aside when we've finished with them... Leaving ticking timebombs for future generations...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 17, 2020)

In the future the humble lampost will have a charge station built in to provide on street charging 

There is talk of motorways becoming one big wireless charging system so you charge whilst driving but that's decades away no doubt .. can't even get it decent on your phone atm


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 18, 2020)

Well I tried cycling the 12k to work yesterday to avoid the Cambridge protests. Pretty much all of it was cycle lanes next to busy roads.

I am doing it again Wednesday so will take what I have learnt.

Main two takeaways are:

I found other cyclists harder to navigate around than cars but I get my people want to preserve momentum when cycling. Two cyclists cut me off or almost hit me but had no issues with cars. I have to admit some of the issues I faced is down to my inexperience cycling so I guess it can only get better. No one complained outwardly so I can’t have been that bad.

Navigating is hard, I know the way but there are so many options when on a bike it will take me time to find my favourite route. I missed a few shortcuts I intended to take but will learn how it all connects up in time.

So I hope to cycle at least once a month, maybe twice if the weather is good. 

Overall it was better than a driving commute but won’t be an option unless the weather is good, not going to cycle in the rain!


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			But the price is a big barrier atm.
		
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One of the reasons for this is.......
If you have a choice between an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) car or an electric car and *they were the same price*, which would you choose?
Most would pick the electric, unless you were doing many thousands of miles per year.
In which case the dealership would never sell any ICE cars so they have to be cheaper.
Once they stop making ICE cars, then the price of the electric cars will come down.

In the future, something like a 5 year old Kia Niro will be good value


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 19, 2020)

So I’m sold on the bike commute, need to keep testing it once the schools go back but was pretty favourable vs the car. I can see it being a 1-3 day a week activity, less of the weather is bad.

Off to investigate cycle to work schemes and price up a decent road/hybrid eBike.


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## USER1999 (Feb 19, 2020)

I used to cycle to work twice a week, but given pretty much every car driver round here tries to kill you, I got fed up with too many near misses.

There is also a heck of a lot of broken glass, so frequent punctures were an issue, making me late.

For me to cycle, they need to seperate out traffic, and sweep the cycle lanes. Neither is going to happen any time soon.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I used to cycle to work twice a week, but given pretty much every car driver round here tries to kill you, I got fed up with too many near misses.

There is also a heck of a lot of broken glass, so frequent punctures were an issue, making me late.

For me to cycle, they need to seperate out traffic, and sweep the cycle lanes. Neither is going to happen any time soon.
		
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Kevlar tyres and some slime in the tubes should sort the puncture prob.
Can’t do much about drivers sadly.


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## USER1999 (Feb 19, 2020)

I was running schwalbe marathons, which are pretty heavy duty anyway. The trouble with heavy tyres, and slime is it just makes the bike so heavy and unresponsive.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I was running schwalbe marathons, which are pretty heavy duty anyway. The trouble with heavy tyres, and slime is it just makes the bike so heavy and unresponsive.
		
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Your only going to work , not the Tour de France.
I know what you are saying it does add weight but there is nothing worse than a puncture going to work.
I had a bike for work and one for proper riding.
But you need the space.


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## USER1999 (Feb 19, 2020)

Sure, but 14 miles each way, including a pretty decent hill means making it harder is no fun, and reducing the acceleration makes negotiating traffic and rounabouts more interesting.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sure, but 14 miles each way, including a pretty decent hill means making it harder is no fun, and reducing the acceleration makes negotiating traffic and rounabouts more interesting.
		
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Oh yes that’s a decent mileage.
Sounds like you need an electric one.
Was cruising the other day at 18mph ,an electric bike went past like I was in treacle.
If I was still working I would get one tomorrow.


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