# Good time for skill and nation building



## Mudball (Aug 24, 2021)

Looking at some of the headlines around shortage of staff across the country, it makes me wonder, if this is a good opportunity for the young ones to get into.  Currently there seems to short supply in many skills from fruit picking to hospitality to supermarket stackers to HGV drivers.  Increased demand is showing up in higher pay/bonus for people.  Surely, for us as a nation, this is the time to see how we skill up.  This will lead to invariable increase in cost of goods & services and downstream inflation (not always a bad thing).

While I see headlines about the army and prisoners being drafted in to drive ambulances or pick fruit, i don't see headlines about people putting themselves out there for these jobs. Where is the labour in this country?  Not sure what the stats are on unemployment claims either.   
Thoughts?

(Pl keep the thread non-political and free from point scoring)


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## Neilds (Aug 24, 2021)

Lazy youngsters, too many benefits, firms sending work abroad...  Think I have covered most of the arguments that will come up so we can close the thread now


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## JamesR (Aug 24, 2021)

Wincanton are starting an apprenticeship scheme, with all the training etc for HGV drivers.

This is what's needed, some sort of provision of cash & training, to get people involved.


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Lol start a Brexit thread and hoping it doesn’t get political... good luck!
		
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I am sure we can have a grown up conversation about this without invoking the B issue.   



Neilds said:



			Lazy youngsters, too many benefits, *firms sending work abroad*...  Think I have covered most of the arguments that will come up so we can close the thread now 

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Well if anything, we now know that not all work can happen remotely.  We still need work to be done in this country.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 24, 2021)

We absolutely mist embark on a program of  upskilling people in this country. There are a few problems though. 
Finding the right people to train. 
Finding people to train them. 
The time it takes for people to become useful. 
Finding the right people to train. 

It needs to start with the school curriculum being modernised to suit what the workplace of the future will look like.


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## Hobbit (Aug 24, 2021)

When you’ve got people actively staying on benefits/universal credit, and DWP supporting them to do so, you have a failing system. And when those that have chosen to go down that path are whining that they want their benefits increasing, but have chosen to stay on that benefit, you have a failing of social responsibility.

We pay the taxes that pay those benefits. The govt might decide the mechanism and the value but we fund them. And some on here say it’s right…

We have lots of opportunities but it needs that state and those who desire to improve their lives to take up those opportunities. 

What we dońt need is the leeches of society taking the very funding that could be better used on those that want to make an effort. Those that need it, no problem, and I’d even take a tax increase to better fund it. Those that chose benefits as a way of life, I wouldńt even pee on in a good fire.


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## Rooter (Aug 24, 2021)

force people able, to work. My wife has a friend who is 'self employed' she is a beautician. She is a single mum of 2 and receives help in terms of financial benefits.

She works approx 8-10 hours a week, does nothing pro active to grow her business and is more than happy with it!! If she earned more, she would A. Have to work for it and B. Lose benefits. Why would she?!

Fundamentally, her business is not viable and she should be forced to find an actual job.

Thats my 2p. Can you tell, her story really annoys me, especially when I hear about her social life, holidays, aesthetic surgery which I am paying for....


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2021)

I empathise with the @Hobbit and @Rooter's examples and as a tax payer it bothers me. But equally this may be the 20% of the people giving the 80% a bad name.  The red rags will always look to showcase the 20%. There will be enough hard working people who are looking for opportunities to do somehting.  You can never get to a perfect world where everyone pulls their weight.  So I think focussing the energy on the 80% is probably a better way than pulling the 20% apart. 

I like the Wincanton example that @JamesR posted about.  Hopefully it is now oversubscribed and they have to turn away people.  As furlong comes to an end, I am hoping people start moving towards these jobs.  I agree with Rooter in the sense that if the benefit of doing nothing is better than cost of doing something, then people have no incentive to work.  Things like Universal Basic Income is not going to help such causes.  

There are enough problems out there... we need more solutions..


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## BiMGuy (Aug 24, 2021)

In the grand scheme of things. Fraudulent benefit claims are tiny fraction of spending.

Forcing people on benefits into work they are either not suited to, or don't want to do will not solve the skills gap we are facing. 

Education is key. But that needs a radical overhaul in my opinion. 

We also need to start paying people enough they don't need to claim benefits. That will unfortunately drive prices up. Are people willing to pay for that?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In the grand scheme of things. Fraudulent benefit claims are tiny fraction of spending.

Forcing people on benefits into work they are either not suited to, or don't want to do will not solve the skills gap we are facing.

Education is key. But that needs a radical overhaul in my opinion.

We also need to start paying people enough they don't need to claim benefits. That will unfortunately drive prices up. Are people willing to pay for that?
		
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Unemployment benefits should always be used as an assistance to get someone into work and not as a choice whether to work or not.  I am not saying those people with severe disabilities should not be looked after but anyone able to do a job should do so.  There are some who would be seen as unemployable due to their social attitudes but theres plenty of jobs need doing like cleaning up the environment that could be compulsory for the longer term fit unemployed.  Restarting Remploy would also be good for many disabled people to have the opportunity to have a dignified job.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2021)

Never knew fruit picking was a skill.
I would have had a BSc1 by the age of 12 for soft fruit picking.
Plus an MA2 in tattie houkin'.

Everything has a proper price, Strawberries are now cheaper than 30 years ago.
Pay a proper wage for workers and charge a subsidy free price for the product.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2021)

I believe one of the big issues with hgv drivers is big delays in getting licences. Plenty want to do it, they just can't do the test. Our current courier driver is part passed but can't get a date for his final part. Once that's done he is off.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 24, 2021)

Missis T worked in the NHS for a few decades. It really was a multi cultural industry. One of which successive governments championed. So far as saying that the NHS would collapse with its foreign workforce it now relies upon. Me personally I think it stinks. For a fair few generations we have not encouraged or invested in our young uns leaving school/ college/ Uni to go into the NHS. They did not want to pay for training preferring to go to the other side of the world to bring in nurses etc froom the Philippines etc, which meant in turn housing etc etc. How is that allowed to happen.
Same with HGV drivers. My Dad paid for my son to do his class 1 driving test/ licence. He passed it but struggled to get a job As he had no experience of class 1 but 3 years at class2. Eventually he went with an agency. He was interviewed for a job with the COOP as he had done agency work with them. When he mentioned that they told him point blank “ we cannot offer you a job as we would have to pay the agency £5K”.  Now look at companies. They are desperate for drivers. He is earning some serious money, but this time last year it was rammel.
I am with the OP, this country needs a massive change in direction in encouraging its youth to go into skilled jobs.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 24, 2021)

Lets be honest, anyone now who doesnt have a degree, masters or whatever is looked down upon. Anybody doing a skilled manual job is looked down upon.
The internet has made everyone an expert who thinks every job bar theirs is a menial job and almost worthless.
Is it any wonder reality TV has given most youngsters their goals.


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2021)

The FT has a good article about the broken labour market.. here is the non-paywall site 

https://archive.is/2021.08.24-07023...827e-4596-999d-e0618364dbe3?shareType=nongift

I like the conclusion >> 
The labour shortages are a moment of reckoning. If we just use them to bicker about Brexit, we’ll drown out the real lessons in the noise.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 24, 2021)

I heard a rumour that Tesco are paying their delivery drivers £35 a hour, anyone know if is this true ?


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## backwoodsman (Aug 24, 2021)

Mudball said:



			The FT has a good article about the broken labour market.. here is the non-paywall site 

https://archive.is/2021.08.24-07023...827e-4596-999d-e0618364dbe3?shareType=nongift

I like the conclusion >> 
The labour shortages are a moment of reckoning. If we just use them to bicker about Brexit, we’ll drown out the real lessons in the noise.
		
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👍👍

The problem is none of us want to pay a sustainable price for the stuff we buy. And hence the people at the sharp end of the production & delivery process arent a offered wages decent enough to be attractive to many. Which is precisely the problem with HGV drivers.  Apparently we're about 100k drivers short. Brexit accounts for about 14k, and if I recall right, Covid delays account for about another 10k. The rest is down to the wages not being worth the general crappiness of the hours & conditions involved in the job.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 25, 2021)

I'm a firm believer that we should as a nation push away from the university route of life just because it's the way.

Bring back more apprentices

So many skills to learn and jobs to cover 

My mate and I were educated until GCSE then I decided I was bored of school I'd leave and go get apprenticeship , he stayed on to do a level then university etc 

We both ended up with good jobs just different ways of doing things 

I think university should only be if you truly need it for the job. Not just because you want the lifestyle or its a meaningless degree 

Another example is my wife she has a degree in psychology.. doesn't use it .. just used the loan to go on holiday


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## rudebhoy (Aug 25, 2021)

When I left school in the late 70s, getting a university place was based primarily on ability. Only 1 in 7 school leavers went to uni, and received a grant to do so. Governments were happy to make that investment in our brightest kids.

Now more than half of school leavers go to university. Instead of a grant, they are saddled with a debt of around 60k when they leave. A lot of the degrees are useless and those kids will end up going into the same lower paid jobs at 21 that my generation did at 16/17.

I can't help thinking that part of the rationale was to keep the dole queue figures down, but the net result of keeping kids at school until 18 then sending more than half of them to uni has been to starve the job market by removing a large number for 4 or 5 years. This gap was filled in the main by foreign workers, now we are stopping them coming over hence the current disastrous situation.


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## Neilds (Aug 25, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			When I left school in the late 70s, getting a university place was based primarily on ability. Only 1 in 7 school leavers went to uni, and received a grant to do so. Governments were happy to make that investment in our brightest kids.

Now more than half of school leavers go to university. *Instead of a grant, they are saddled with a debt of around 60k when they leave*. A lot of the degrees are useless and those kids will end up going into the same lower paid jobs at 21 that my generation did at 16/17.

I can't help thinking that part of the rationale was to keep the dole queue figures down, but the net result of keeping kids at school until 18 then sending more than half of them to uni has been to starve the job market by removing a large number for 4 or 5 years. This gap was filled in the main by foreign workers, now we are stopping them coming over hence the current disastrous situation.
		
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RE the bit in bold - It is the taxpayer that is saddled with most of the student loan debt!  A quick internet search to a reputable site suggests only 25% of loans are paid back in full.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 25, 2021)

I thought the FT piece posted by mudball was excellent, it has 1 like ( me) and one other comment. It hits the nail firmly on the head.
The piece/story about Tesco was only partly true. What it failed to say was it sub contracted its class 1 drivers to get a lower haulage costs. Drivers left in droves. Now it is struggling for drivers. I knew last year that Me and Missis T would catch Covid, the week before Xmas my son delivered to Essex, Kent and Wales. It was rammed with Covid, guess what lad was diagnosed with On Boxing Day, Covid. 
The important read for me in the FT piece was 9 hour shifts that can take 15 hours. It’s is true, the work and lifestyle balance is shocking and yet companies did pay a pittance for that role to be fulfilled. The shortage of lorry drivers is the tip of the iceberg re the Problem of skilled workforce in the Uk.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 25, 2021)

Neilds said:



			RE the bit in bold - It is the taxpayer that is saddled with most of the student loan debt!  A quick internet search to a reputable site suggests only 25% of loans are paid back in full.
		
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My old boss from years ago, her son trained to be a solicitor. He got a student loan to buy a car as it was the cheapest way to do it.


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## Rooter (Aug 25, 2021)

Thames Valley Police are recruiting for new bobbies on the beat. Must have a degree... WTF!!??

They do have a route in for non-degree educated, but that involves basically being an apprentice while studying for a degree.

I didn't go to uni and I am doing ok, currently getting paid to rant on a golf forum, and I don't even golf anymore!! Living the dream!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2021)

Food has never been cheaper.
In the early 1970's it amounted to 25% of a families weekly costs. £5 a week on a £20 wage
Now I believe it is about 15%


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

Been dipping in and out of the thread for a read this last few days.

First of all the skill shortage. In effect, the need has already been identified. But what about the training? In the main, the courses are there, just not enough of them, nor enough candidates. But how about moving some of the money around, and making targeted training free. Ramp up the training to get people through it quicker.

The answers, in that respect, seem quite simple. So what is missing? Political will, employers not having the budget for it, making the prospects more attractive? Whatever, it won’t be put right overnight.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 25, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Thames Valley Police are recruiting for new bobbies on the beat. Must have a degree... WTF!!??

They do have a route in for non-degree educated, but that involves basically being an apprentice while studying for a degree.

I didn't go to uni and I am doing ok, currently getting paid to rant on a golf forum, and I don't even golf anymore!! Living the dream!
		
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A good pal of mine has gone down this route to try and join Derbyshire police, he is ex serviceman, his aim is to join firearms. Had an interview, but said it was tough. He is a PCSO at the moment to gain experience


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## Neilds (Aug 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Been dipping in and out of the thread for a read this last few days.

First of all the skill shortage. In effect, the need has already been identified. But what about the training? In the main, the courses are there, just not enough of them, nor enough candidates. But how about moving some of the money around, and making targeted training free. Ramp up the training to get people through it quicker.

The answers, in that respect, seem quite simple. So what is missing? Political will, employers not having the budget for it, making the prospects more attractive? Whatever, it won’t be put right overnight.
		
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As you say, who is going to pay for this training?  I agree that it is a good idea but the Magic Money Tree must be looking very bare at the moment as it has been pruned to within an inch of its life recently!


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Been dipping in and out of the thread for a read this last few days.

First of all the skill shortage. In effect, the need has already been identified. But what about the training? In the main, the courses are there, just not enough of them, nor enough candidates. But how about moving some of the money around, and making targeted training free. Ramp up the training to get people through it quicker.

The answers, in that respect, seem quite simple. So what is missing? Political will, employers not having the budget for it, making the prospects more attractive? Whatever, it won’t be put right overnight.
		
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There is no single answer to the situation. It needs different levers with different timeframes - and all should be done within a plan.  Some thoughts

Short term: We may need some kind of overseas people to come and fill the gap.  It may not be politically palatable, but it might the quickest way to ensure bread and toilet paper is available.  Even the fabled Aussie point based system, keep updating the skills allowed into the country.  Some years it will sparkies, others years its panel beaters or techies or dentist or HGV drivers.  

Medium term:  Ramp up testing and certification of skills which ae available but not able to do the job. e.g HGV certification backlog

Longer term: Reconsider our skills program - university, apprentice, unions & pay (the dutch HGV example from the FT). 

I am sure there are cleverer people than me who can figure this out, but we seem to be putting band aid across problems - sometimes due to the 'political optics' and next elections.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

Neilds said:



			As you say, who is going to pay for this training?  I agree that it is a good idea but the Magic Money Tree must be looking very bare at the moment as it has been pruned to within an inch of its life recently!
		
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Yes the money tree is bare but as I said, “move some money around.” It isn’t always about finding ‘new’ money. What is it costing employers? If people are choosing to stay on benefits, too much is being paid to them - where’s the incentive?

Here in Spain you get 1 month of benefits without restriction. From month 2 onwards you get your benefits but are required to work, under supervision, clearing litter/sweeping the streets/maintaining the parks flowers etc, with a set time put aside to chase a job. But why not give the claimant a list of courses and say, “pick one.” Don’t pass the course = benefits reduced by 15%.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

Mudball said:



			There is no single answer to the situation. It needs different levers with different timeframes - and all should be done within a plan.  Some thoughts

Short term: We may need some kind of overseas people to come and fill the gap.  It may not be politically palatable, but it might the quickest way to ensure bread and toilet paper is available.  Even the fabled Aussie point based system, keep updating the skills allowed into the country.  Some years it will sparkies, others years its panel beaters or techies or dentist or HGV drivers. 

Medium term:  Ramp up testing and certification of skills which ae available but not able to do the job. e.g HGV certification backlog

Longer term: Reconsider our skills program - university, apprentice, unions & pay (the dutch HGV example from the FT).

I am sure there are cleverer people than me who can figure this out, but we seem to be putting band aid across problems - sometimes due to the 'political optics' and next elections.
		
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Absolutely, there’s no single answer. If it was that simple, govt ministers would read the forum. A 5 min paragraph barely touches a solution.


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## Neilds (Aug 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Yes the money tree is bare but as I said, “move some money around.” It isn’t always about finding ‘new’ money. What is it costing employers? If people are choosing to stay on benefits, too much is being paid to them - where’s the incentive?

Here in Spain you get 1 month of benefits without restriction. From month 2 onwards you get your benefits but are required to work, under supervision, clearing litter/sweeping the streets/maintaining the parks flowers etc, with a set time put aside to chase a job. But why not give the claimant a list of courses and say, “pick one.” Don’t pass the course = benefits reduced by 15%.
		
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Stop talking sense and using logic - you are on a golf forum!!!!!



My other half works in Benefits and has done for about 20 years in various local authorities.  In this time the people employed to counter fraud has been cut massively - at her current job the Fraud Team(?) is 1 person, part time!  Jobs were cut to save money but has cost much more in fraudulent claims, especially during the current pandemic. All because it would be 'unfair' to make people wait a little while until the proper checks have been done.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Stop talking sense and using logic - you are on a golf forum!!!!!



My other half works in Benefits and has done for about 20 years in various local authorities.  In this time the people employed to counter fraud has been cut massively - at her current job the Fraud Team(?) is 1 person, part time!  Jobs were cut to save money but has cost much more in fraudulent claims, especially during the current pandemic. All because it would be 'unfair' to make people wait a little while until the proper checks have been done.
		
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I’m not suggesting fraudsters are targeted. Those that avoid work because it doesn’t suit them. Sorry but if you’re fit for work and can’t find something you’re happy with, clear the litter. But we’re getting away from upskilling and rebuilding.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m not suggesting fraudsters are targeted. Those that avoid work because it doesn’t suit them. Sorry but if you’re fit for work and can’t find something you’re happy with, clear the litter. But we’re getting away from upskilling and rebuilding.
		
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I wouldn't waste my time with that group. Yes it's annoying to the rest of the hardworking population, but small beans in the grand scheme of things.

The money and effort spent chasing them would be better spent educating and training those that want to work. That is where the value is.

HGV drivers are just the tip of the iceberg. Try finding skills construction workers and engineers. These people can't be fast tracked into being productive doing a few weeks on a training course for a few £k.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 25, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I wouldn't wast my time with that group. Yes it's annoying to the rest of the hardworking population, but small beans in the grand scheme of things.

The money and effort spent chasing them would be better spent educating and training those that want to work. That is where the value is.

HGV drivers are just the tip of the iceberg. Try finding skills construction workers and engineers. These people can't be fast tracked into being productive doing a few weeks on a training course for a few £k.
		
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This is the post that I have least issue with, so far.
Many of the other posts are highly politically contentious and I don't know how this thread is being allowed to continue.
Nevertheless, I'm going to join in.
If calling poor people "leeches" is acceptable on this forum then so should landlords be described as such as they are the biggest recipients of a benefit after the state pension. (Housing benefit goes to landlords not poor people) Universal credit and/or jobseekers allowance is only a fraction of the benefits paid to landlords in comparison. Who are the leeches again?
Increase the stock of local authority housing and the housing benefit goes to the local authority, not private landlords, keeping everyone's council tax bill down.
Vilifying and blaming poor people for the ills of the economy is just plain silly.
We are not short of people ready, willing and able to fill employment needs. They merely need the means to do so, quickly and efficiently. (The thread title reference)
Higher wages = lower benefits paid out. The majority of benefit claimants are already in employment.
Well, there's my political comment. I hope it has provided some balance. That was my intent. I mean no slight to any individual here.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			This is the post that I have least issue with, so far.
Many of the other posts are highly politically contentious and I don't know how this thread is being allowed to continue.
Nevertheless, I'm going to join in.
If calling poor people "leeches" is acceptable on this forum then so should landlords be described as such as they are the biggest recipients of a benefit after the state pension. (Housing benefit goes to landlords not poor people) Universal credit and/or jobseekers allowance is only a fraction of the benefits paid to landlords in comparison. Who are the leeches again?
Increase the stock of local authority housing and the housing benefit goes to the local authority, not private landlords, keeping everyone's council tax bill down.
Vilifying and blaming poor people for the ills of the economy is just plain silly.
We are not short of people ready, willing and able to fill employment needs. They merely need the means to do so, quickly and efficiently. (The thread title reference)
Higher wages = lower benefits paid out. The majority of benefit claimants are already in employment.
Well, there's my political comment. I hope it has provided some balance. That was my intent. I mean no slight to any individual here.
		
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I used leeches and I’m quite happy with the context, which maybe you missed. I don’t have a problem with people being on benefits, and as I have said in numerous posts down the years I’m quite happy to see tax rises to pay more benefits.

My gripe is with those who make no effort to gain employment, preferring benefits to be a lifestyle choice. Nowhere did I blame poor people, nor did I vilify them. You read that into it.

Targeted training, and funding it is the issue for upskilling. Have created the courses, assuming funding is available, I’m sure that some who avoid work will see the benefit of training.


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## Whereditgo (Aug 25, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I wouldn't waste my time with that group. Yes it's annoying to the rest of the hardworking population, but small beans in the grand scheme of things.

The money and effort spent chasing them would be better spent educating and training those that want to work. That is where the value is.

HGV drivers are just the tip of the iceberg.* Try finding skills construction workers and engineers. These people can't be fast tracked into being productive doing a few weeks on a training course for a few £k*.
		
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Agree with this.

There is a huge shortage of experienced tradesmen in the 30 to 40 age bracket, this particular part of the problem has been coming for a number of years, nothing to do with recent events. Apprenticeships used to be 5 years, businesses would view their annual apprentice intake as cheap labour for the first two years (rightly or wrongly), apprenticeships nowadays are 3 years and its even possible to fast track over two years, effectively resulting in poorly trained tradesmen with no experience commanding high wages. 

In terms of university education, it seems to be going to university is seen as some sort of 'rites of passage' with too many doing worthless (in the real world) degree courses, while enjoying the experience. We have struggled to fill posts at junior engineer level for years now, the few that have been appointed have fallen woefully short of the required standard, both in terms of technical knowledge and attitude and this includes several degree qualified people.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 25, 2021)

To write about people as "leeches" is to vilify them. "Vilify" means to write or speak about in a disparaging way.
One is entitled to have this view of poor people who are not gainfully employed and making little effort to be so.
I do not hold that view. Nor would I use disparaging terms to describe poor people. I see them as unfortunate and in need of help and direction for a better life.
I believe to use such terms is not constructive for a balanced view of the bottom end of society.
Everyone is entitled to their own view and I mean no slight to anyone here. Let us express our differing views without malice.
Landlords "choose" to rent out property to poor people and receive benefits (housing benefit) for doing so. This is their lifestyle choice to receive state handouts for owning property.
I would describe them (landlords) as "fortunate" rather than "leeches". At least they provide accommodation to poor people, which can be viewed as a good thing. Balanced view.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 25, 2021)

We have just (finally) launch a direct recruit apprenticeship for my grade. Hopefully means long term we will get 12-20 (depending a how many they take on and b how many cut it) of us filling vacancies

There is such a high failure rate that retirements are now affecting us more and we have seen in recent weeks the met line for example not be able to run due to lack of us as there is only so much overtime people can do without constantly being at work .. too many positions available accross the network 

My lines about to get 5 due to a new desk opening for the extention but we got 3 trainees .. then we got 2 promotions and 3 retiring soon it's going to open it up again..however we are one of the more well staffed lines so under 25% the roster missing is low

These apprentices will learn so much and hopefully make the step up whilst we take on our normal 50 or so a year that normally about 5 pass but coming in and training for 2 years before doing the 12 months training is a much better position to start from


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## theoneandonly (Aug 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			When you’ve got people actively staying on benefits/universal credit, and DWP supporting them to do so, you have a failing system. And when those that have chosen to go down that path are whining that they want their benefits increasing, but have chosen to stay on that benefit, you have a failing of social responsibility.

We pay the taxes that pay those benefits. The govt might decide the mechanism and the value but we fund them. And some on here say it’s right…

We have lots of opportunities but it needs that state and those who desire to improve their lives to take up those opportunities.

What we dońt need is the leeches of society taking the very funding that could be better used on those that want to make an effort. Those that need it, no problem, and I’d even take a tax increase to better fund it. Those that chose benefits as a way of life, I wouldńt even pee on in a good fire.
		
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Lazy post inspired by lazy journalism.

Sad, but the usual way any discussion on benefits goes.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Lazy post inspired by lazy journalism.

Sad, but the usual way any discussion on benefits goes.
		
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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Lazy post inspired by lazy journalism.

Sad, but the usual way any discussion on benefits goes.
		
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You've made the lazy post.  If you disagree with someone then maybe try a grown up reply that tackles the issues you disagree with.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 25, 2021)

Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.
		
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It was ever thus.


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2021)

Is it time to bring back mandatory conscription?  

A friend of mine from up north was the only guy from his family who escaped and possibly the few from his area/school. He joined the Army and worked his way around. Saw action and then went the intel route. 

Today he is on a 6 figure pay as cyber security leaders in the city. 

His ticket was the forces. Got him out of his rut he was stuck in. Unfortunately his siblings still there..


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## larmen (Aug 25, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			These people can't be fast tracked into being productive doing a few weeks on a training course for a few £k.
		
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I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?

In Germany when doing an apprenticeship, usually 3 years, you are being paid a fairly low wage, might be 700€ ‘Ausbildungsentschädigung’ a month just to put a figure on it. In this time you are being trained by a business as well as a school. After the time you get a certificate that you are a plumber/baker/secretary/branch banker/police officer/hairdresser/nurse/warehouse worker/office worker/dentist assistant/… a wide variety of fields.
There are usually more applications than positions in some fields.

But it is set out in the school system already. After 6 years you pick your track. 9 years basic school often leading to trade, 10 years middle school often leading to office career, or 13 years upper school leading to university. Times might have changed in the last 25 years.
They don’t have the situation where at the end of school everyone is doing A levels and everyone wants to go to university.

Also university fees, I topped out at 120 DM in my final year. Next year would have been about 65€ if I had to do one more.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Is it time to bring back mandatory conscription? 

A friend of mine from up north was the only guy from his family who escaped and possibly the few from his area/school. He joined the Army and worked his way around. Saw action and then went the intel route.

Today he is on a 6 figure pay as cyber security leaders in the city.

His ticket was the forces. Got him out of his rut he was stuck in. Unfortunately his siblings still there..
		
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Not sure if the armed forces would welcome it but maybe some type of national service where you worked in the community for a year to eighteen months improving the environment or helping vulnerable people.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?

In Germany when doing an apprenticeship, usually 3 years, you are being paid a fairly low wage, might be 700€ ‘Ausbildungsentschädigung’ a month just to put a figure on it. In this time you are being trained by a business as well as a school. After the time you get a certificate that you are a plumber/baker/secretary/branch banker/police officer/hairdresser/nurse/warehouse worker/office worker/dentist assistant/… a wide variety of fields.
There are usually more applications than positions in some fields.

But it is set out in the school system already. After 6 years you pick your track. 9 years basic school often leading to trade, 10 years middle school often leading to office career, or 13 years upper school leading to university. Times might have changed in the last 25 years.
They don’t have the situation where at the end of school everyone is doing A levels and everyone wants to go to university.

Also university fees, I topped out at 120 DM in my final year. Next year would have been about 65€ if I had to do one more.
		
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I believe in Germany people who graduate in certain fields first carry out an apprenticeship then go to university. They tend to graduate older as they do the apprenticeship first but are very skilled and employable after Uni.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 26, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			1. Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
2. I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
3. Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
4. Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.
		
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Apart from point 2, this sounds like someone very wealthy that I knew.
Parents set them up with a house to live in and two more to rent out. They lived off the rental income (the housing benefit of the tenants, ie tax-payers money) and never needed to work to earn a wage, did some studying and some charity work, but generally had a really good time.
So some poor people have the same "ethic" as the seriously wealthy, then. Wonder where they got the idea?

I don't disagree with the points you made, they are the truth, but I don't believe in "blaming" the poorest in society for a failing system of that society. There are errors in all echelons.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?
		
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Depends on what you call a trade. But in essence, yes they do. 

If you don't leave school and go into an apprenticeship, and want to learn a trade or new skill as an adult. Then typically you would have to pay for the courses yourself.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Apart from point 2, this sounds like someone very wealthy that I knew.
Parents set them up with a house to live in and two more to rent out. They lived off the rental income (the housing benefit of the tenants, ie tax-payers money) and never needed to work to earn a wage, did some studying and some charity work, but generally had a really good time.
So some poor people have the same "ethic" as the seriously wealthy, then. Wonder where they got the idea?

I don't disagree with the points you made, they are the truth, but I don't believe in "blaming" the poorest in society for a failing system of that society. There are errors in all echelons.
		
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I doubt if there are many like that.


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## DaveR (Aug 26, 2021)

The issue is living off benefits is now a career choice. The system is broken. I worked over 40 years before losing my job. Because I was sensible and planned ahead I'm not entitled to a penny in benefits but if I'd pissed it all up the wall I would be. Migrants stepping off dinghies at Dover are entitled to more than me.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I doubt if there are many like that.
		
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I doubt if there are few.


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## Rooter (Aug 26, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Is it time to bring back mandatory conscription?
		
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No. Ask anyone in the armed forces if they would want to serve alongside someone forced to be there. Mandatory work? you want your weekly job seekers? then pick litter, look after the elderly, mow grass, whatever.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I doubt if there are few.
		
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Matter of scale.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 26, 2021)

Scale. Housing benefit (the money that goes to the property owners) costs us 10 times the amount of all Jobseekers allowances.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Scale. Housing benefit (the money that goes to the property owners) costs us 10 times the amount of all Jobseekers allowances.
		
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Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them.  Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them.  Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.
		
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But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them. * Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.*

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.
		
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I think I covered that with "costs us".
Housing benefit, or rent paid from wages that goes to property owners, is "money for doing no work" and is absolutely vast compared with unemployment benefits paid to poor people that just covers keeping them alive.
I understand the scale of this and where the money comes from and where it goes to ever since I first read "Inequality in Britain" by Frank Field as a teenager in the 1970s.
I have a copy of "Capital in the 21st Century" by Thomas Picketty but not started it yet.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 26, 2021)

(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to *get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)*

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
Increase the stock of local authority housing so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up
		
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So should we stop paying them?
We pay a whole raft of working benefits, should they all be abolished and the minimum wage be raised. That's ok if the companies having to pay higher wages get tax breaks and can pass the costs on to us consumers, or would you be happier for employers to all go bust, that would be great for employment.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			So should we stop paying them?
We pay a whole raft of working benefits, should they all be abolished and the minimum wage be raised. That's ok if the companies having to pay higher wages get tax breaks and can pass the costs on to us consumers, or would you be happier for employers to all go bust, that would be great for employment.
		
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The tax credit system has breed an unhealthy dependant on paying poor wages rather than fair wages.

We the customers will never be happy with paying 1p more for anything yet to be a more stable and ironically cost us less in taxes if we paid more for products allowing people to be paid more and reducing these credits completely it would be better off for everyone.

However we live in a selfish world when £5 off a kettle is worth more than a fairer system .. and taking the higher benefit rate away from those on the bread line (the £20 top up brought in for covid) is more acceptable than chasing the big boys for tax ..

Fraud costs this country 2 billion a year but it's more fashionable to turn everyone against the strugglers and say they are the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to *get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)*

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
Increase the stock of local authority housing so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.
		
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I can't see how that will work.  New houses cost money that will be paid by tax, paying higher wages costs money that will be passed to the consumer, how much more of your wages do you want to be taken from you.

We need to care for people who genuinely can't look after themselves but to deny that there are a large number who do nothing to help themselves is naive to the extreme.    Also two wrongs don't make a right so I'm quite aware of the companies who don't pay enough tax etc, all of them need to be targeted to let the hard working keep more of their wages and the country prosper.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The tax credit system has breed an unhealthy dependant on paying poor wages rather than fair wages.

We the customers will never be happy with paying 1p more for anything yet to be a more stable and ironically cost us less in taxes if we paid more for products allowing people to be paid more and reducing these credits completely it would be better off for everyone.

However we live in a selfish world when £5 off a kettle is worth more than a fairer system .. and taking the higher benefit rate away from those on the bread line (the £20 top up brought in for covid) is more acceptable than chasing the big boys for tax ..

Fraud costs this country 2 billion a year but it's more fashionable to turn everyone against the strugglers and say they are the problem.
		
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I repeat, two wrongs don't make a right.  Clamp down on all who defraud the system.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



*I can't see how that will work.  New houses cost money that will be paid by tax,* paying higher wages costs money that will be passed to the consumer, how much more of your wages do you want to be taken from you.

We need to care for people who genuinely can't look after themselves *but to deny that there are a large number who do nothing to help themselves* is naive to the extreme.    Also two wrongs don't make a right so I'm quite aware of the companies who don't pay enough tax etc, all of them need to be targeted to let the hard working keep more of their wages and the country prosper.
		
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By re-directing some of the vast amount of housing benefit (money for doing no work that goes to property owners) back to the local authorities will help fund the house building and the rental income from those properties then keeps our council tax bills down. Long term near-zero cost to tax payers.

I don't deny it. They need help and direction towards a better life.




A few years out of date, but stills gives the general picture. The unemployed get the tiniest slice of benefits. Much of that money goes to utilities and supermarkets. Re-directing some of the huge amount of housing benefit away from the wealthy and back to local authorities makes perfect sense to me. There are plenty of other ways for wealthy property owners to make money from money without being given a state handout.


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## Kellfire (Aug 27, 2021)

This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.
		
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I've had this debate before on other forums. So many outraged with those at the bottom getting that extra £20 a week or the free school meals ... The "scroungers".. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the figures again of max benefit etc etc but it was so tight to live off with all the benefits people could get that tbh I don't care about the minority of people who play the system .. sod trying to live off that .. 

We seem to be conditioned to resent people with more than us and also to resent those who get less than us being helped out.

It's a sad world.

I'd rather just focus on what I get and if someone needs help fair enough ..


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to *get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)*

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
*Increase the stock of local authority housing* so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.
		
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We are digressing from the topic... but how does increasing council ownership v/s private landlords change the pic.  Either way it will cost the govt either in (high capital + low monthly)  or (no capital + higher monthly rent).  So a case of left pocket or right pocket for the govt.  You could think of rent control for private landlords. 

Question > how does housing impact skill building ?


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up
		
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There’s a element of truth in what you say but it’s also a backhanded way of subsidising industries who struggle to compete with cheap labour costs in the Far East.


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.
		
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Totally agree. I used to get wound up by the sporting wing of UKIP on here, decided it wasn't worth it, and now try to avoid getting sucked into the "debate".


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.
		
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Can i say that was a bit lazy sweeping generalisation.  also does not add to the discussion around how do we build back better (or whatever is the latest catchphrase).   This is a golf forum, so you are expecting forumites to be rich white middle class men from the South  (see what generalisation does)  



pauljames87 said:



			I've had this debate before on other forums. *So many outraged with those at the bottom getting that extra £20 a week or the free school meals *... The "scroungers".. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the figures again of max benefit etc etc but it was so tight to live off with all the benefits people could get that tbh I don't care about the minority of people who play the system .. sod trying to live off that ..

We seem to be conditioned to resent people with more than us and also to resent those who get less than us being helped out.

It's a sad world.

I'd rather just focus on what I get and if someone needs help fair enough ..
		
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I seriously did not get what the whole noise was about. It must be me.  When i was younger, i was an out and out capitalistic guy.  As I get older and have seen a bit of the world, i am more socialist in my views.   I just cant see the what was wrong in providing some additional support during unprecedented times or ensuring a child does not go hungry while out of school...


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 27, 2021)

Mudball said:



			We are digressing from the topic... but how does increasing council ownership v/s private landlords change the pic.  Either way it will cost the govt either in (high capital + low monthly)  or (no capital + higher monthly rent).  So a case of left pocket or right pocket for the govt.  You could think of rent control for private landlords.

Question > *how does housing impact skill building* ?
		
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Local authorities are well placed to be working hand in hand with educators to create opportunities for apprenticeships in building trades - brickies, chippies , sparkies, painters and decorators. This will be ongoing with an increasing stock of housing with regards to maintenance of those properties as an appreciating asset.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Can i say that was a bit lazy sweeping generalisation.  also does not add to the discussion around how do we build back better (or whatever is the latest catchphrase).   This is a golf forum, so you are expecting forumites to be rich white middle class men from the South  (see what generalisation does) 



I seriously did not get what the whole noise was about. It must be me.  When i was younger, i was an out and out capitalistic guy.  As I get older and have seen a bit of the world, i am more socialist in my views.   I just cant see the what was wrong in providing some additional support during unprecedented times or ensuring a child does not go hungry while out of school...
		
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The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc. However I never know if I will need it one day anything could happen 

I don't see any issue with people getting help , could easily be in that situation

Let's face it I'm fortunate because I was born near London, litterally wouldn't have my job elsewhere .. same as people seeking asylum over here. I have no issue. I'm just lucky again because I was born in England 

Can't help where your born.


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## Neilds (Aug 27, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Local authorities are well placed to be working hand in hand with educators to create opportunities for apprenticeships in building trades - brickies, chippies , sparkies, painters and decorators. This will be ongoing with an increasing stock of housing with regards to maintenance of those properties as an appreciating asset.
		
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But we can't build more housing as all the nimbies/golfers/eco warriors are opposing 'their' land being built on


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc. However I never know if I will need it one day anything could happen

I don't see any issue with people getting help , could easily be in that situation

Let's face it I'm fortunate because I was born near London, litterally wouldn't have my job elsewhere .. same as people seeking asylum over here. I have no issue. I'm just lucky again because I was born in England

Can't help where your born.
		
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No one has suggested we shouldn't look after the genuine in need of help, have they?  It's always the same in these debates, if anyone suggests some people are working the benefit system some start accusing you of being a heartless, wealthy, callous, Right wing, UKIP card carrying poor hater.   It just kills off any sensible debate.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Totally agree. I used to get wound up by the sporting wing of UKIP on here, decided it wasn't worth it, and now try to avoid getting sucked into the "debate".
		
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I believe you rent a property, it would be so easy to throw lazy insults your way.  Try reading what people actually say as opposed to what your prejudice morphs it into.

You managed to suck yourself into this one 🙄


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## DaveR (Aug 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc.
		
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You have children? What about children's allowance and child care or whatever it's called these day? They are benefits.


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No one has suggested we shouldn't look after the genuine in need of help.  It's always the same in these debates, if anyone suggests some people are working the benefit system some start accusing you of being a heartless, wealthy, callous, Right wing, UKIP card carrying poor hater.   It just kills of any sensible debate.
		
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The problem is that through our media we're conditioned that there a feckless, workshy scroungers everywhere because the spotlight is constantly in them whereas aggressive tax avoiders and companies and industries who are reliant on paying low wages are never highlighted in the same way. 
I work in the skills and training world, apprenticeships in England are on the rise because employers and young people who don't want debt are demanding them. The issue with all these things is consistent funding streams that all parties can rely on. Governments off all colour tend to get initiatives off the ground then change tack.
At the moment lorry drivers are in vogue but that means other good quality initiatives that are already running get defunded or postponed. Employers then get turned off apprenticeships.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2021)

DaveR said:



			You have children? What about children's allowance and child care or whatever it's called these day? They are benefits.
		
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Not entitled to child benefit I'd have to pay it all back if I claimed it, as I said I'm fortunate to be in position I am.


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## Voyager EMH (Aug 27, 2021)

So there we have it folks. We need to move as many people as possible from the £2.4 billion unwaged group into the £29.9 billion low-waged group and this will solve a massive problem with the benefits system. Except it won't.
Housing benefit is the biggest "problem" that needs to be addressed.
This goes hand in hand with the need for affordable housing and more reasonably priced decent accommodation for poor people.

Yes you may describe people as "lazy scrounging leeches" if you so choose. Believe me, such people can be found in the wealthiest echelons of our society. They will have the power to fight back if you call them vile names, however. So watch out. You may still be disparaging to the poor with impunity in the meantime - I hope that will change sooner rather than later.


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe you rent a property, it would be so easy to throw lazy insults your way.  Try reading what people actually say as opposed to what your prejudice morphs it into.

You managed to suck yourself into this one 🙄
		
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I rent a holiday home. To holidaymakers. It's how I supplement my pension. No-one is paying me housing benefit.

The nasty sneering tone of your response (not for the first time) reaffirms my decision to make a conscious effort to avoid this kind of discussion. So, feel free to fire off your repertoire of lazy insults, I won't be responding. It does amuse me though that you have beliefs, while those who don't agree with you have prejudices


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I rent a holiday home. To holidaymakers. It's how I supplement my pension. No-one is paying me housing benefit.

The nasty sneering tone of your response (not for the first time) reaffirms my decision to make a conscious effort to avoid this kind of discussion. So, feel free to fire off your repertoire of lazy insults, I won't be responding. It does amuse me though that you have beliefs, while those who don't agree with you have prejudices 

Click to expand...

Holiday home, forcing up the cost of local housing so young people cannot afford to live there. Socially irresponsible.

Best way to avoid a debate is to avoid it.   Just saying 🙂


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Holiday home, forcing up the cost of local housing so young people cannot afford to live there. Socially irresponsible.

Best way to avoid a debate is to avoid it.   Just saying 🙂
		
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I have no comment to make on holiday homes, but the irony of your arguement is the older locals that refuse to sell at reasonable prices to young locals so they can climb the property ladder and self betterment (in their eyes)
Just remember the ages that voted for Maggie and took advantage of the right to buy of council housing at rediculous prices, and in many cases sold it on as soon as they could for a very quick large profit.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 27, 2021)

DaveR said:



			You have children? What about children's allowance and child care or whatever it's called these day? They are benefits.
		
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Somehow, we've gone from talking about upskilling to cutting benifits. 

Maybe we should start by cutting the biggest benefit burden? Especially as the generation that have had it the best in living memory start to claim it.


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Holiday home, forcing up the cost of local housing so young people cannot afford to live there. Socially irresponsible.

Best way to avoid a debate is to avoid it.   Just saying 🙂
		
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It's on a bespoke holiday village, so not driving up the price of local housing or depriving young people. In fact the holiday village provides a lot of local kids with employment. Sorry to disappoint you.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Somehow, we've gone from talking about upskilling to cutting benifits.

Maybe we should start by cutting the biggest benefit burden? Especially as the generation that have had it the best in living memory start to claim it.
		
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You mean that payment that people pay in for over 30 years, or 50 in some cases that isn't a benefit.  By all means stop it but also stop the installments so people can pay it into a private fund.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You mean that payment that people pay in for over 30 years, or 50 in some cases that isn't a benefit.  By all means stop it but also stop the installments so people can pay it into a private fund.
		
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Of course its a benefit. And that's before we get to the cost of adult social care. 

How many people drawing a state pension have paid anything like the value in that they are getting out? 

I don't have a problem with it. I did have a problem at someone sniping about people getting child allowance. 

But it does appear to be a theme on the forum (not including you), that if you are anything other than a grumpy middle aged or old man, you are considered scum of some kind.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Of course its a benefit. And that's before we get to the cost of adult social care.

How many people drawing a state pension have paid anything like the value in that they are getting out?

I don't have a problem with it. I did have a problem at someone sniping about people getting child allowance.

But it does appear to be a theme on the forum (not including you), that if you are anything other than a grumpy middle aged or old man, you are considered scum of some kind.
		
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I'm sure I could have received a better pension with what I paid in.  50 years contributions without drawing a single days unemployment benefit and I end up with a second class pension due to not being entitled to the new higher pension that younger people who have paid in less years receive.


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## DaveR (Aug 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Of course its a benefit. And that's before we get to the cost of adult social care.

How many people drawing a state pension have paid anything like the value in that they are getting out?

I don't have a problem with it. I did have a problem at someone sniping about people getting child allowance.

But it does appear to be a theme on the forum (not including you), that if you are anything other than a grumpy middle aged or old man, you are considered scum of some kind.
		
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A lot of people have a problem with some of the stuff you post. It wasn't a snipe, it was a straightforward question to another poster. And for what it's worth, we have some of the lowest state pensions in Europe.


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## Mudball (Aug 28, 2021)

Can we put aside some of the handbags and get back to the topic. 

Specifically on HGV, a bit surprised that it is not in the Skill shortage Visa. Some incentives to drive local workforce into it, but I don’t think it will help in the short term 

Hire UK workers to drive lorries, minister tells firms https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58364308


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## pauljames87 (Aug 28, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Can we put aside some of the handbags and get back to the topic.

Specifically on HGV, a bit surprised that it is not in the Skill shortage Visa. Some incentives to drive local workforce into it, but I don’t think it will help in the short term

Hire UK workers to drive lorries, minister tells firms https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58364308

Click to expand...

Hire uk workers? Yes long term that's fine but getting them to that standard ? With the back log in testing aswell?

Can we stop this rubbish of cutting our nose to spite our face and just train on the side of letting foreign drivers in on visa

Long term plan rather than cut them off cold turkey


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## chrisd (Aug 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You mean that payment that people pay in for over 30 years, or 50 in some cases that isn't a benefit.  By all means stop it but also stop the installments so people can pay it into a private fund.
		
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Spot on SR. I worked from the age of 15 without a single break in employment or paying tax, and I still am expected to pay tax now I'm 68 and semi retired. I do get the higher universal pension but can't claim any benefits and, as far as I understand, I could have earned a lot more pension if the money I paid to the Government was actually put into a pension scheme.  

I also had private medical cover but was still required to pay in to the NHS (something you cant opt out of), so my various expensive operations over the years I not only paid for I also paid tax on the benefit of saving the NHS the costs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2021)

Yup, there you have it.
The tax dodgers, dodgy expense claimants, black economy workers and those folk who will happily use them calling the folk on benefits leeches.
Ohh Forgot the dodgy and inflated insurance scammers.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 28, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Spot on SR. I worked from the age of 15 without a single break in employment or paying tax, and I still am expected to pay tax now I'm 68 and semi retired. I do get the higher universal pension but can't claim any benefits and, as far as I understand, I could have earned a lot more pension if the money I paid to the Government was actually put into a pension scheme. 

I also had private medical cover but was still required to pay in to the NHS (something you cant opt out of), so my various expensive operations over the years I not only paid for I also paid tax on the benefit of saving the NHS the costs.
		
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Private medical insurance is to save you having to wait on the NHS for an operation..it benefits you greatly.

Plus if you had an accident you have to go into the NHS for treatment before you can transfer out. 

Just like claiming oh I've never been sick I shouldn't pay for it . Not how it works or should ever work.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 28, 2021)

DaveR said:



			A lot of people have a problem with some of the stuff you post. It wasn't a snipe, it was a straightforward question to another poster. And for what it's worth, we have some of the lowest state pensions in Europe.
		
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And I don't like some of the things other people post. That's the unfortunate way of the world. It would be a dull place if everyone had the same opinion. But this place is more like a UKIP forum than a golf forum at times.

Funny how not many people seem to mind poor people being described as leeches? 

Feel free to hit the ignore button. I'm sure many have.


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## chrisd (Aug 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Private medical insurance is to save you having to wait on the NHS for an operation..it benefits you greatly.

Plus if you had an accident you have to go into the NHS for treatment before you can transfer out.

Just like claiming oh I've never been sick I shouldn't pay for it . Not how it works or should ever work.
		
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Private insurance was an absolute necessity as I worked in a situation where I needed to be able to have treatment that fitted into my business needs, I could not have run my business and been at the mercy of the NHS for when, say, I needed a hip replacement. I think that with millions of people now on the waiting list since Covid it may pay the Government to allow a partial opt out of tax for anyone wanting to go private for their medical care. Private medical care only benefitted me when I needed to use it, otherwise it took money out of my business that could have been better used elsewhere and also I, and my business partner, had to pay extra income tax as it's a "benefit in kind" albeit that it saved the NHS many thousands of pounds over the years we had it.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 28, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Private insurance was an absolute necessity as I worked in a situation where I needed to be able to have treatment that fitted into my business needs, I could not have run my business and been at the mercy of the NHS for when, say, I needed a hip replacement. I think that with millions of people now on the waiting list since Covid it may pay the Government to allow a partial opt out of tax for anyone wanting to go private for their medical care. Private medical care only benefitted me when I needed to use it, otherwise it took money out of my business that could have been better used elsewhere and also I, and my business partner, had to pay extra income tax as it's a "benefit in kind" albeit that it saved the NHS many thousands of pounds over the years we had it.
		
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The NHS has before and I'm sure will again pay for the waiting list to go private to get through the covid back log

It may have only benefited you when you had to use it but you could afford it. Many others can't and have to just have what the NHS offers and if it stops them working they lose out.


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## chrisd (Aug 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The NHS has before and I'm sure will again pay for the waiting list to go private to get through the covid back log

It may have only benefited you when you had to use it but you could afford it. Many others can't and have to just have what the NHS offers and if it stops them working they lose out.
		
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If by definition "I could afford it" is that I paid it, that is not entirely correct. As I said I paid it because it was a necessity for my business to ensure that I did not have time away that was unscheduled. The money would have been better used in the business. I accept that many others cant afford private cover but if I'd relied solely on the NHS then not only would I have lost out if I couldn't work, so would the employees who would possibly have lost their jobs had the business had to close.

As it turned out I used the private cover a number of times even having a hip replacement a week before Christmas so that I could recuperate over the Christmas break, something I couldn't have done at almost any other time.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And I don't like some of the things other people post. That's the unfortunate way of the world. It would be a dull place if everyone had the same opinion. But this place is more like a UKIP forum than a golf forum at times.

Funny how not many people seem to mind poor people being described as leeches?

Feel free to hit the ignore button. I'm sure many have.
		
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Why not take the bias filters off and actually read and digest what people post.  I made it clear numerous times we should look after those that are genuinely in need, do you suggest we should protect those that use the system rather than work?   I also keep agreeing that tax evading is wrong but keep hearing that because of it we should accept other forms of defrauding the system.


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## patricks148 (Aug 28, 2021)

Starting to take a political edge, please stay away from politics and keep to the topic


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## pauljames87 (Aug 28, 2021)

chrisd said:



			If by definition "I could afford it" is that I paid it, that is not entirely correct. As I said I paid it because it was a necessity for my business to ensure that I did not have time away that was unscheduled. The money would have been better used in the business. I accept that many others cant afford private cover but if I'd relied solely on the NHS then not only would I have lost out if I couldn't work, so would the employees who would possibly have lost their jobs had the business had to close.

As it turned out I used the private cover a number of times even having a hip replacement a week before Christmas so that I could recuperate over the Christmas break, something I couldn't have done at almost any other time.
		
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However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else 

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.


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## Mudball (Aug 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else 

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.
		
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Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need. 

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 28, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need.

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.
		
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Also takes a long time to become a doctor etc 

I mean that apprenticeship I said about before not even remotely the same but won't even go close to giving us people for least 3 years and that's not something as serious as medical staff

Almost as if these things shouldn't have been rushed through during a pandemic


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need.

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.
		
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Poorer countries pay to train people and we poach them away rather than train our own.   We should be ashamed, we need to invest in people.


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## chrisd (Aug 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.
		
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I said that it was a necessity because I could not have run my business if I'd have to rely on the NHS, not that they wouldn't have done a good job, but I couldn't have a major operation without being able to plan for it. Yes, the premiums and tax would probably cover the costs - I had insurance for about 25 years.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I agree but it's not just training - we need invest in the NHS to improve the pay and conditions of those already in it. Lots of the people trained under the NHS subsequently emigrate to work in better environments such as in Australia. We need the government to properly support and sustain the NHS.
		
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Who are poorly paid in the NHS.  Can you give salary scale proof?


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Who are poorly paid in the NHS.  Can you give salary scale proof?
		
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I don’t know the financials. 
While you wait for the financial answer.. there is a non-financial answer aka working conditions, progressions/opportunities  , work-life balance etc. 

We import a lot of skilled and trained NHS staff from Indian, Philippines etc. On a relative scale (based on purchasing power parity) a good Doctor in India is not financially worse off than a U.K. counterpart when they stay in India.  All skilled ‘migrant’ are not economic migrants. They are likely to move for better work conditions, opportunities, new life style etc. 

Now swap U.K. for India and Australia/Canada/US for U.K. Our trained staff move overseas for non-financial reasons. If it takes 7 years of training and working 60 hour weeks to become a qualified Dr they may choose a 40 hour shift instead. 

(sweeping generalisations 🚨 ) I was talking to a GP friend. He is a Partner but says that the young ones coming into the field choose to become locums/consultants instead. They don’t aspire to become Partners. They want choice to move around, travel, choice of work hours etc. They don’t stay in the community like the old days


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Who are poorly paid in the NHS.  Can you give salary scale proof?
		
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Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.
		
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I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

*"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?*
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

*"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?*
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."
		
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33-36k as an average for a nurse which is a highly skilled job I'd say is underpaid for the work they do, the shifts they do aswell 

Say 40-45 would be a much fairer reflection to start appreciating what they bring minimum


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			33-36k as an average for a nurse which is a highly skilled job I'd say is underpaid for the work they do, the shifts they do aswell

Say 40-45 would be a much fairer reflection to start appreciating what they bring minimum
		
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Don't discount the value of the pension, job security and the ability to take early retirement. You need to look at the whole package not just the headline salary.

Edit : incidentally, I found this which actually lays out the various pay scales https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Don't discount the value of the pension, job security and the ability to take early retirement. You need to look at the whole package not just the headline salary.
		
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Whilst that is correct it's still far too low.. early retirement still? Hasn't the law changed now 

I stand by my statement 45 would be about right 

Or go work on a station gateline for lu .. 32k similar benefits to those stated 

Nurses are underpaid


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

*"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?*
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."
		
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The figure quoted is for a Band 6 grade with at least 5 years experience. A newly qualified, Band 1 earns £18k.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst that is correct it's still far too low.. early retirement still? Hasn't the law changed now

I stand by my statement 45 would be about right

Or go work on a station gateline for lu .. 32k similar benefits to those stated

Nurses are underpaid
		
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My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there? 

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there?

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.
		
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The average Nurse salary in London is £37,269. This is 8.0% more than the average national salary for Nurse jobs. The average London Nurse salary is 17% less than the average salary across London.
The average advertised salary for a Nurse in London is 17% below the average salary for all jobs in London which is £44,689.
Nurse vacancies in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year. Currently there are 5,410 London Nurse jobs.
Average salaries for Nurse jobs in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year, compared to a change of 9.4% for all jobs in London and -1.3% for Nurse jobs nationwide.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there?

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.
		
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Cut majority of middle management that's not required and increase pay to front line .. always avoided by anyone working out cuts as it's their job that goes


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The average Nurse salary in London is £37,269. This is 8.0% more than the average national salary for Nurse jobs. The average London Nurse salary is 17% less than the average salary across London.
The average advertised salary for a Nurse in London is 17% below the average salary for all jobs in London which is £44,689.
Nurse vacancies in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year. Currently there are 5,410 London Nurse jobs.
Average salaries for Nurse jobs in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year, compared to a change of 9.4% for all jobs in London and -1.3% for Nurse jobs nationwide.
		
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London is nuts, certainly to everyone outside looking in 😄. Whenever you look at national salaries you really need to remove London from the equation. It bears no resemblance to anywhere else.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			London is nuts, certainly to everyone outside looking in 😄. Whenever you look at national salaries you really need to remove London from the equation. It bears no resemblance to anywhere else.
		
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Well except when the increased wages mean more taxes which are taken out of London to provide more services for the rest of the country 😜


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## williamalex1 (Aug 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.
		
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And some staff have to pay to park in hospital car parks


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well except when the increased wages mean more taxes which are taken out of London to provide more services for the rest of the country 😜
		
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Don't you worry, London does alright on the spending front. We are still waiting on a dual carriageway for the main road to Scotland up here 😭


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The figure quoted is for a Band 6 grade with at least 5 years experience. A newly qualified, Band 1 earns £18k.
		
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The figure is the average not the starting wage.  You would expect the average to have worked more than five years and progressed up the grading system, just like in most large state organisations.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I see everyone has gone off on the "pay" part of "pay and conditions". It's more the latter causing doctors to leave the NHS. Chronic underfunding leading to low staffing levels forcing long hours, lack of flexibility and high stress levels. Particularly for more junior doctors. And that was before covid which has exacerbated all these issues.

BTW It's fun to have political threads back. 

Click to expand...

Underfunding!


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2021)

£18k for a starting nurse/paramedic/ police /fire is ridiculous compared to the role they do in society. An accountant starting at a Big 4 in the city or an investment bank trainee gets more. And they don’t kick down doors or save lives. If anything the pandemic has shown what roles are critical to a society. 

If my daughter ever wanted to work in London as a nurse, the £5k yearly train won’t leave much. Soup and biscuits for Christmas


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Mudball said:



			£18k for a starting nurse/paramedic/ police /fire is ridiculous compared to the role they do in society. An accountant starting at a Big 4 in the city or an investment bank trainee gets more. And they don’t kick down doors or save lives. If anything the pandemic has shown what roles are critical to a society.

If my daughter ever wanted to work in London as a nurse, the £5k yearly train won’t leave much. Soup and biscuits for Christmas
		
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London again.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 30, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I see everyone has gone off on the "pay" part of "pay and conditions". It's more the latter causing doctors to leave the NHS. Chronic underfunding leading to low staffing levels forcing long hours, lack of flexibility and high stress levels. Particularly for more junior doctors. And that was before covid which has exacerbated all these issues.

BTW It's fun to have political threads back. 

Click to expand...

No political threads on here Caz. How very dare you!


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The figure is the average not the starting wage.  You would expect the average to have worked more than five years and progressed up the grading system, just like in most large state organisations.
		
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A quick search of nurse vacancies posted up by Trusts paints a very different picture. 

Having worked for the NHS, and recruited from the NHS, can I just say your appraisal is off the mark.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			A quick search of nurse vacancies posted up by Trusts paints a very different picture.

Having worked for the NHS, and recruited from the NHS, can I just say your appraisal is off the mark.
		
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A newly qualified Nurse starts at band 5 @ £25,655

https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/#what-band-do-newly-qualified-nurses-start-at


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2021)

Mudball said:



			£18k for a starting nurse/paramedic/ police /fire is ridiculous compared to the role they do in society. An accountant starting at a Big 4 in the city or an investment bank trainee gets more. And they don’t kick down doors or save lives. If anything the pandemic has shown what roles are critical to a society.

If my daughter ever wanted to work in London as a nurse, the £5k yearly train won’t leave much. Soup and biscuits for Christmas
		
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And the pay for a newly qualified accountant not at the big 4?


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2021)

South Dakota
*Average RN Salary:* $59,540 (£43,194)

*Average Hourly:* $28.63

South Dakota has the LOWEST pay rates for nurses in America 

https://nurse.org/articles/highest-paying-states-for-registered-nurses/


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



South Dakota
*Average RN Salary:* $59,540 (£43,194)

*Average Hourly:* $28.63

South Dakota has the LOWEST pay rates for nurses in America

https://nurse.org/articles/highest-paying-states-for-registered-nurses/

Click to expand...

Should I trawl the internet for the salary of a Nurse in Kazakhstan.


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## GB72 (Aug 31, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And the pay for a newly qualified accountant not at the big 4?
		
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Not quite the same but in the legal profession, if you look at at pay at a magic circle firm in London compared to the rest of the couuntry and regular sized firms then you are going to see a massive disparaity. Trainee solicitor and NQ solicitor salaries around most fo the country are on a parity with the figures that are being given for nursing etc. Look at the big London firms and you are looking 3 or more times that and with NQ salaries 2 or 3 times that being earned by solicitors with decades of experience in more provincial firms. 

As for nursing pay in the states, I guess you have to take into account the way it is funded. If they want to increase nurses salaries, they increase the cost of healthcare and health insurance. 

Those are just debating points. As it happens, I believe that nurses, the police and fire brigade deserve more


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## PNWokingham (Aug 31, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not quite the same but in the legal profession, if you look at at pay at a magic circle firm in London compared to the rest of the couuntry and regular sized firms then you are going to see a massive disparaity. Trainee solicitor and NQ solicitor salaries around most fo the country are on a parity with the figures that are being given for nursing etc. Look at the big London firms and you are looking 3 or more times that and with NQ salaries 2 or 3 times that being earned by solicitors with decades of experience in more provincial firms.

As for nursing pay in the states, I guess you have to take into account the way it is funded. If they want to increase nurses salaries, they increase the cost of healthcare and health insurance.

Those are just debating points. As it happens, I believe that nurses, the police and fire brigade deserve more
		
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my mates daughter had several offers for trainee solicitor. She took one from a big american firm - not sure exactly what the salary was as a trainee but starting salary after articles when a qualifies solicitor was £120k!! I was gob smacked


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## GB72 (Aug 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			my mates daughter had several offers for trainee solicitor. She took one from a big american firm - not sure exactly what the salary was as a trainee but starting salary after articles when a qualifies solicitor was £120k!! I was gob smacked
		
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Yep, big firms in London are different gravy to what you earn on the high street


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## Mudball (Aug 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			my mates daughter had several offers for trainee solicitor. She took one from a big american firm - not sure exactly what the salary was as a trainee but starting salary after articles when a qualifies solicitor was £120k!! I was gob smacked
		
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A friend's son went into investment banking to work on the oil trading desk.  2 year out of college, he was looking at 100k+ (incl bonus & commissions).  It is not for everyone and he did not expect to work there beyond 30.  newspapers would call it casino banking, but the boys work really really hard for their money.  Now with some of those desks moving, fewer opportunities over the next few in that sector.


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## toyboy54 (Aug 31, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Don't you worry, London does alright on the spending front. We are still waiting on a dual carriageway for the main road to Scotland up here 😭
		
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What's going on then?? Why the delay??
Has whatsisname down in London been misleading you in some way re infrastructure-surely not!!..No, you must have misheard or misunderstood-after all,,he's v.v. busy


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## Mudball (Sep 2, 2021)

Someone called Darren Grimes came up with a tweet to hire more U.K. HGV drivers or similar. Got a bit of sting from someone else for proposing too simplistic a view on his understanding of the issue


Btw, I heard today that HGV drivers are payed by KM not by hours… so sitting at ports delays means no money..

(Beware: the guy uses the B-word one too many times)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430629012653674496


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## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Someone called Darren Grimes came up with a tweet to hire more U.K. HGV drivers or similar. Got a bit of sting from someone else for proposing too simplistic a view on his understanding of the issue

*
Btw, I heard today that HGV drivers are payed by KM not by hours… *so sitting at ports delays means no money..

(Beware: the guy uses the B-word one too many times)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430629012653674496

Click to expand...

 I think that's only true in the USA - and not the case over here. (At least, for employed drivers. Might be different if driving a lorry you own yourself).


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## pauljames87 (Sep 3, 2021)

I've read in a few places that the dreaded b word has actually got these drivers better pay because of the shortage they are finally getting decent pay for their efforts as opposed to having sheer numbers available to allow big firms to pay lower wages
Don't mind actually paying more for things by a few pence here and there if it means those doing the hard work get a fair wage


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've read in a few places that the dreaded b word has actually got these drivers better pay because of the shortage they are finally getting decent pay for their efforts as opposed to having sheer numbers available to allow big firms to pay lower wages
Don't mind actually paying more for things by a few pence here and there if it means those doing the hard work get a fair wage
		
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I've spoken to haulage drivers at work and heard an hourly rate of £10.75 as common. This isn't long haul drivers but they are still driving big wagons. That's ridiculous for a skilled job. No wonder it hasn't been attractive and why rates need to go up in order to attract new drivers and retain existing ones.


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've read in a few places that the dreaded b word has actually got these drivers better pay because of the shortage they are finally getting decent pay for their efforts as opposed to having sheer numbers available to allow big firms to pay lower wages
Don't mind actually paying more for things by a few pence here and there if it means those doing the hard work get a fair wage
		
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I expect fair wages be paid.  but it is not just HGV, it will be across the supply chain. As consumers it will push up prices (read inflation).  The challenge is were pay rises for consumers have been supressed, this is a killer blow.  If wages rise in line with inflation, then the effect is likely to cancel impact of price rises.  IMO, the govt may end up doing a u-turn (pun intended) on the HGV visas once they realise that 'Christmas is cancelled' headlines start showing up. 

Like someone pointed out earlier, I think the whole HGV is tip of iceberg. The situation in other industries is no different.  If you look at the technology/IT industry, after years of offshoring tech, there is a golden opportunity where tech is moving back - esp in Digital services where you need the skill but not the scale of what places like India can give. Can we find enough home grown Digital or Cyber people?  No marks for correctly guessing the answer.  As an industry, I see hires in Poland, Spain, Estonia etc.   UK is running short on supply and overheated market.

We never really had a focus on STEM subjects and therefore we dont have the base to deliver it. We are now waking up to this and trying to push STEM subjects, but the underfunding means we dont have teachers and facilities in the state sector for this. Similar situation in other high skill areas like biotech, robotics, nano-research. 

I dont have the answer on how we turn back time.  Nor is it the case of which Govt caused it.  It is a question of what we are going to do about it.


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've spoken to haulage drivers at work and heard an hourly rate of £10.75 as common. This isn't long haul drivers but they are still driving big wagons. That's ridiculous for a skilled job. No wonder it hasn't been attractive and why rates need to go up in order to attract new drivers and retain existing ones.
		
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In a few years, when we have fully autonomous driving on HGV, the skills will need to change.  I dont expect my grandchild (expected to be born after 2035) will learn to drive in the first place.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			I expect fair wages be paid.  but it is not just HGV, it will be across the supply chain. As consumers it will push up prices (read inflation).  The challenge is were pay rises for consumers have been supressed, this is a killer blow.  If wages rise in line with inflation, then the effect is likely to cancel impact of price rises.  IMO, the govt may end up doing a u-turn (pun intended) on the HGV visas once they realise that 'Christmas is cancelled' headlines start showing up.

Like someone pointed out earlier, I think the whole HGV is tip of iceberg. The situation in other industries is no different.  If you look at the technology/IT industry, after years of offshoring tech, there is a golden opportunity where tech is moving back - esp in Digital services where you need the skill but not the scale of what places like India can give. Can we find enough home grown Digital or Cyber people?  No marks for correctly guessing the answer.  As an industry, I see hires in Poland, Spain, Estonia etc.   UK is running short on supply and overheated market.

We never really had a focus on STEM subjects and therefore we dont have the base to deliver it. We are now waking up to this and trying to push STEM subjects, but the underfunding means we dont have teachers and facilities in the state sector for this. Similar situation in other high skill areas like biotech, robotics, nano-research.

I dont have the answer on how we turn back time.  Nor is it the case of which Govt caused it.  It is a question of what we are going to do about it.
		
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I've seen this sad with the u turns but tbh don't know what leavers wanted entirely but controlled immigration for needs of the country sounded one of them so I do suspect visas will be coming 

Bit like Ozzie land when they need people they get visas easy


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			In a few years, when we have fully autonomous driving on HGV, the skills will need to change.  I dont expect my grandchild (expected to be born after 2035) will learn to drive in the first place.
		
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Funnily enough I spoke about this with a driver a year or two ago. His opinion was that the trunking that happens overnight will be largely autonomous as it is classic A to B driving of full loads on major roads only but the local depot pickups and deliveries will need drivers still. I tend to agree with him. Autonomous vehicles have their place but not across the board.


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've seen this sad with the u turns but tbh don't know what leavers wanted entirely but controlled immigration for needs of the country sounded one of them so I do suspect visas will be coming 

Bit like Ozzie land when they need people they get visas easy
		
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While we are talking about less options at supermarkets, the real challenge might actually be closer to home - garbage collection. 
Third round of garden wastes not being collected for us. So about 6 weeks worth. Not the end of the world but this may be more difficult if it was general waste not being collected. Hopefully won’t come to that.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			While we are talking about less options at supermarkets, the real challenge might actually be closer to home - garbage collection.
Third round of garden wastes not being collected for us. So about 6 weeks worth. Not the end of the world but this may be more difficult if it was general waste not being collected. Hopefully won’t come to that.
		
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We have been very lucky throughout covid not had an issue with the bins

Tomorrow is our day as was bank holiday. Hope they come as last weekend was twins bday. I have a lot of rubbish lol


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've seen this sad with the u turns but tbh don't know what leavers wanted entirely but controlled immigration for needs of the country sounded one of them so I do suspect visas will be coming

Bit like Ozzie land when they need people they get visas easy
		
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That hit the nail on the head.  Give visas for the skills you need and not for the ones you don't.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			While we are talking about less options at supermarkets, the real challenge might actually be closer to home - garbage collection.
Third round of garden wastes not being collected for us. So about 6 weeks worth. Not the end of the world but this may be more difficult if it was general waste not being collected. Hopefully won’t come to that.
		
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Fewer options in the Supermarket isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as there are fewer options for processed cheap crap and not fresh food. 
As you say, there are other priorities. 

There are options for refuse collection. We could get the army in if need be. 

But in reality, it does not take very long to train a HGV driver, so if there are enough people willing to do the job. It should be possible to fill many of the positions reasonably quickly. 

Training properly skilled trades, engineers and medical staff will be significantly more difficult and take much longer.


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## Mudball (Sep 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Fewer options in the Supermarket isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as there are fewer options for processed cheap crap and not fresh food. 
As you say, there are other priorities. 

There are options for refuse collection. We could get the army in if need be. 

But in reality, it does not take very long to train a HGV driver, so if there are enough people willing to do the job. It should be possible to fill many of the positions reasonably quickly. 

Training properly skilled trades, engineers and medical staff will be significantly more difficult and take much longer.
		
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With no disrespect.. I must disagree 

1) get the army (regular or TA) to do bin runs really.  What will it do to morale? Also the forces have other things to do and I suspect they are streched too.  Haven’t we reduced our standing number of boots? 

2) quick training for HGV? I am no expert but I assume it takes time behind wheels in order to get your license.  I don’t think we will have the numbers by Christmas.  Maybe it is a case of visas for 2021 & 2022.. while getting local skills up. We should be ready for 2023..


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2021)

Mudball said:



			2) quick training for HGV? I am no expert but I assume it takes time behind wheels in order to get your license.  I don’t think we will have the numbers by Christmas.  Maybe it is a case of visas for 2021 & 2022.. while getting local skills up. We should be ready for 2023..
		
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I was listening to the Business Secretary (?) Kwasi Kwarteng the other day who said that they wouldn't be issuing visas as it was only a short term solution and that firms should be looking to train UK residents to fill those roles. 

I was sat there thinking that exactly what we need is a short term solution to solve the problems until firms could train more people.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was listening to the Business Secretary (?) Kwasi Kwarteng the other day who said that they wouldn't be issuing visas as it was only a short term solution and that firms should be looking to train UK residents to fill those roles.

I was sat there thinking that exactly what we need is a short term solution to solve the problems until firms could train more people.
		
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If they say they won't do it expect a U-turn by next week lol

What I've heard from people with hgv licences (bus drivers for example) is it's getting medicals and getting the DVLA to do their bit as their behind and low on numbers

So not just the training side it's the DVLA issuing licences and having drs available to do medicals for qualified drivers

I read of one driver who was waiting an age medical... So couldn't drive..been doing other work since and doesn't want to return

I really think now is not the time to try and recover cash from covid money in budgets etc

I think we need to go post war spending style and rebuild dramatically. We have had a double hit with the word we won't mention (right or wrong doesn't matter) and covid at the same time. We couldn't have planned that it was out of control so we need to rebuild our skills as a nation and rebuild what we can and can't do


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## BiMGuy (Sep 4, 2021)

Mudball said:



			With no disrespect.. I must disagree

1) get the army (regular or TA) to do bin runs really.  What will it do to morale? Also the forces have other things to do and I suspect they are streched too.  Haven’t we reduced our standing number of boots?

2) quick training for HGV? I am no expert but I assume it takes time behind wheels in order to get your license.  I don’t think we will have the numbers by Christmas.  Maybe it is a case of visas for 2021 & 2022.. while getting local skills up. We should be ready for 2023..
		
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Moralal for who? If its the army, they are there to serve the country. If that means driving something they'd rather not then so be it. 

According to this it doesn't take very long to train a HGV driver. 
https://www.truckschool-swindon.co.uk/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-a-lorry-driver/


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Moralal for who? If its the army, they are there to serve the country. If that means driving something they'd rather not then so be it.

According to this it doesn't take very long to train a HGV driver.
https://www.truckschool-swindon.co.uk/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-a-lorry-driver/

Click to expand...

As I posted, it's not just the training it's the current back log

DVLA behind with licencing 
Drs behind with medicals 
Test centres behind 

Doesn't just magically speed up to old speed after lockdown


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			As I posted, it's not just the training it's the current back log

DVLA behind with licencing
Drs behind with medicals
Test centres behind

Doesn't just magically speed up to old speed after lockdown
		
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Nothing that can't be sorted with the will to do it.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing that can't be sorted with the will to do it.
		
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Exactly. If having more HGV drivers is such a priority. Get the DVLA to concentrate their efforts into processing HGV licences. Get them working 24/7 until its done. Pay overtime and insensitives as necessary. 

Same with medicals. Make them a priority over other stuff until the backlog is cleared. 

Then there is just the problem of testing. Again, increase the time available to do tests. Work weekends and longer days if required.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing that can't be sorted with the will to do it.
		
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Totally agree, but we still need a short term solution, and if that means that we have to issue short term temporary visas for lorry drivers then it shouldn't be dismissed.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Exactly. If having more HGV drivers is such a priority. Get the DVLA to concentrate their efforts into processing HGV licences. Get them working 24/7 until its done. Pay overtime and insensitives as necessary.

Same with medicals. Make them a priority over other stuff until the backlog is cleared.

Then there is just the problem of testing. Again, increase the time available to do tests. Work weekends and longer days if required.
		
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Lifted from another forum 

It's not just the lack of tests either. It's the lack of even being able to get a medical to apply for an LGV & PCV provisional. Even now, GPs are still not seeing patients face to face, and the issue with LGV licences, is that a lot of the time, it's up to the licence holder to get their own medicals sorted. PCV holders are generally in the fortunate enough position where the company arranges the medical, and at my work place at least, they've been doing that since the end of March this year. So of course, you have drivers that are hitting 45 when you have to have a mandatory medical, and they can't find anywhere to get it done, and it's the same for others of all ages whose licences are expiring.

DVSA were automatically renewing licences for a year up until October last year, but they've changed that and you still have to apply upon expiry, but they are giving you another year without having to have a medical - but because of strikes at DVSA and the massive backlog of applicants, I've heard stories of drivers at work not being able to work for 2-3 months and they have not got their licence through, despite them sending it off in good time. You can drive under a section 28, but you need to get hold of DVSA call centres to be able to do that - and getting through to them at the moment is nigh on impossible.

Naturally, these drivers that are still waiting for their licence to come back and unable to drive under a section 28 still have bills to pay, so they've found employment elsewhere with the intention of going back to driving when they get their licence back. Problem there being now, is that they're now doing regular hours, having a far better work/life balance, and consequently, they've stayed where they are and jacked the driving in. The same goes for drivers that were furloughed and got another job during the main lockdowns.

To use a phrase I've used before, it has been a perfect storm, whereby some have left because of Brexit, some have left because of covid, some have left due to licence difficulties and not returned to driving - and that's without the natural wastage too. I was talking to a haulier friend a couple of days ago, and he also came up with a good point, that the time of year hasn't helped where there is a small but not insignificant chunk of the driving workforce off on annual leave throughout the summer too.

As I posted previously, there are 75-80000 (ish) LGV licence holders not doing the job currently. Questions need to be asked why this is, why drivers that have invested thousands of pounds in the training have come to the conclusion the job isn't worth doing any more.

The simple answer, is most likely because the job is now ****. My old man was a trucker, and I knew him as nothing else until he retired. He loved the job, and it may be clouded by fond memories of my childhood of when I used to go out in the wagon with him, but I can't ever recall him being away from home, I can't recall being out with him and waiting for hours on end to make a drop, nor can I recall him ever struggling to find somewhere to park for his breaks.

Truckers, and all professional drivers of large vehicles, have been taken for granted for far too long, and hopefully things are about to change. Maybe, firms are wising up to the fact that unless the wheels are turning, they ain't earning - and without staff, those wheels are not turning. To retain those staff, T&Cs and pay need to improve, and improve fast, otherwise there will be a point where the shortage of LGV and PCV drivers will remain a permanent fixture for years to come. I've been with my current company for two and a half years, and in that time, my pay has increased by a grand sum of 24p per hour. When people feel that they're only worth 13p and 11p respectively, which are our previous pay rises, people start to question just how much they are valued.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2021)

Today had the misfortune of having to call 999 for an ambulance as the MIL was having episodes of dizziness. After the triage, they said they can’t get an ambulance as not enuf of them around and currently used in life threatening situation. They asked if we could get her A&E ourselves for the tests which is impossible given that she is bed ridden. 

So 6 hrs later we are on a waiting list for ambulances.   They can’t see another one coming free for another 5-6 hrs. 

So when Boris came along today to announce the hikes, it brought a wry laugh from me.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 7, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Today had the misfortune of having to call 999 for an ambulance as the MIL was having episodes of dizziness. After the triage, they said they can’t get an ambulance as not enuf of them around and currently used in life threatening situation. They asked if we could get her A&E ourselves for the tests which is impossible given that she is bed ridden.

So 6 hrs later we are on a waiting list for ambulances.   They can’t see another one coming free for another 5-6 hrs.

So when Boris came along today to announce the hikes, it brought a wry laugh from me.
		
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I think he misunderstood the robin hood tales


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## Kellfire (Sep 7, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Someone called Darren Grimes came up with a tweet to hire more U.K. HGV drivers or similar. Got a bit of sting from someone else for proposing too simplistic a view on his understanding of the issue


Btw, I heard today that HGV drivers are payed by KM not by hours… so sitting at ports delays means no money..

(Beware: the guy uses the B-word one too many times)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430629012653674496

Click to expand...

The best thing to do when Darren Grimes says anything is to ignore him without question. You’ll generally be better off. He’s basically a right wing propaganda machine aimed at corrupting younger voters and children by stirring up hatred and division, generally by stating half truths or outright lies that he knows the impressionable won’t actually look into.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 7, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The best thing to do when Darren Grimes says anything is to ignore him without question. You’ll generally be better off. He’s basically a right wing propaganda machine aimed at corrupting younger voters and children by stirring up hatred and division, generally by stating half truths or outright lies that he knows the impressionable won’t actually look into.
		
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Yep. He's the Conservatives slightly less nasty version of of a Momentum activist.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was listening to the Business Secretary (?) Kwasi Kwarteng the other day who said that they wouldn't be issuing visas as it was only a short term solution and that firms should be looking to train UK residents to fill those roles.

I was sat there thinking that exactly what we need is a short term solution to solve the problems until firms could train more people.
		
Click to expand...

They would become reliant on the short term solution. 
UK firms love to cherry pick talent not develop it. They like to use experienced contractors to develop youngsters they have groomed from university. But the old contractors share little as it would devalue them … UK firms need a culture change. Pay the skilled guys the money, and they may share their knowledge.

What is interesting today is the people pushing back about the NI rate increase, it was coming with furlough costs. However it is not quite fair across the whole pay range and no one has actually addressed the real cost save and that is, not paying out for stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Today had the misfortune of having to call 999 for an ambulance as the MIL was having episodes of dizziness. After the triage, they said they can’t get an ambulance as not enuf of them around and currently used in life threatening situation. They asked if we could get her A&E ourselves for the tests which is impossible given that she is bed ridden.

So 6 hrs later we are on a waiting list for ambulances.   They can’t see another one coming free for another 5-6 hrs.

So when Boris came along today to announce the hikes, it brought a wry laugh from me.
		
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I assume you used the 111 service.  I would have thought a duty GP could have visited you.   The ambulance service you have been offered is crazy, I needed to call an ambulance last week for a family member in London which arrived very quickly.  12 Hours for an Ambulance! I've never heard of anything like it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They would become reliant on the short term solution.
UK firms love to cherry pick talent not develop it. They like to use experienced contractors to develop youngsters they have groomed from university. But the old contractors share little as it would devalue them … UK firms need a culture change. Pay the skilled guys the money, and they may share their knowledge.

What is interesting today is the people pushing back about the NI rate increase, it was coming with furlough costs. However it is not quite fair across the whole pay range and no one has actually addressed the real cost save and that is, not paying out for stuff.
		
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We often hear the cry that other countries pay more tax than us but get better social services, untill they actually have to pay it that is.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 7, 2021)

Tax rises were always going to be needed. I've no issue paying more. But there are a lot of elderly people needing care who could pay for it with the gains made on property values.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Tax rises were always going to be needed. I've no issue paying more. But there are a lot of elderly people needing care who could pay for it with the gains made on property values.
		
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That's fine but the current plan as it is doesn't mean that will happen. My dad and stepmum are relatively well off and have recently moved into a £300k bungalow with no mortgage. My dad has early dementia and at some point is likely to need some kind of social care. Under the current plan as long as either he or my stepmum remain living in the property it won't count towards his assets for the purposes of this calculation. So that'll be a 300k+ property that won't count towards his assets.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Tax rises were always going to be needed. I've no issue paying more. But there are a lot of elderly people needing care who could pay for it with the gains made on property values.
		
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That's fine but they can't live in their properties and sell them.  Also under the new rules they could still have to pay £86K each and the kids would lose their inheritance.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Tax rises were always going to be needed. I've no issue paying more. But there are a lot of elderly people needing care who could pay for it with the gains made on property values.
		
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This is what's got me..it's a tax on the poorest in society where as retired people on large pensions won't pay a penny 

Why not an increase in income tax? Then for big pensioners they would pay but the lower pensions not so much 

Seems fairer to me


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## harpo_72 (Sep 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We often hear the cry that other countries pay more tax than us but get better social services, untill they actually have to pay it that is.
		
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Yup that is the case in Sweden but as foreign contract I cannot access their social services so it’s purely a money collecting exercise


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## BiMGuy (Sep 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is what's got me..it's a tax on the poorest in society where as retired people on large pensions won't pay a penny

Why not an increase in income tax? Then for big pensioners they would pay but the lower pensions not so much

Seems fairer to me
		
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I'm sure the answer to that is overstepping the no politics rule. 
But, your suggestion would mean tax rises for the current governments core group of voters.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is what's got me..it's a tax on the poorest in society where as retired people on large pensions won't pay a penny

Why not an increase in income tax? Then for big pensioners they would pay but the lower pensions not so much

Seems fairer to me
		
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Also many poor pensioners would pay more tax.  Many pensioners would be paying basic rate tax on anything above their tax free allowances so those with quite low incomes would pay more tax, as would any low earner. I also notice any pensioner still working will also pay the new NI contribution where they currently pay no NI.

Not all pensioners are raking it in and in many cases are the bank of Mum&Dad.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I assume you used the 111 service.  I would have thought a duty GP could have visited you.   The ambulance service you have been offered is crazy, I needed to call an ambulance last week for a family member in London which arrived very quickly.  12 Hours for an Ambulance! I've never heard of anything like it.
		
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We finally had the parameds visit us at 8pm..   A lovely pair and were very apologetic.  They said they are maxed out.  Checked her over and spoke to Drs.  She will stay at home + get tests done in the morning.  
Speaking to one of them.. he says they are stretched.  Also their ambulance broke down and so they were sitting by the road for a couple of hours.  It is a tough one. 

This is our first experience of what is a very prompt service. 

We did not use 111 since it was an emergency in the morning and needed triaging.  It did not go to a duty GP, since I got thru to her GP and he picked up the phone.  

Some new lessons and learnings.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

Here's a radical idea, why not tax the very rich a bit more and make sure big companies also pay the proper amount of tax. Yes, the big companies create jobs and pay taxes but a lot of the time it's not what it could, or should, be due to moving profits around and other tax dodges. How about a temporary 60% tax rate on income over 150k and a 75% tax rate on income over £500k?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Current government will never do it as it will impact themselves, their cronies, their party's funders.
		
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There are two main problems as I see it. The Tories won't tax the very rich as that's where most of their money come from. Labour like to raise corporation tax as they say it taxes the big companies more but ignore the fact it also affects one man band plumbers, electricians etc. I quite like the current corporation tax set up where bigger companies are taxed more than smaller companies. Lots of people also wanting tax on dividends to be the same as PAYE while ignoring the fact that those running their own business are also having to pay their own insurance, not getting paid holidays, not getting any medical cover etc. But I fear we are straying far across the line of political discussion and should probably move on.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Here's a radical idea, why not tax the very rich a bit more and make sure big companies also pay the proper amount of tax. Yes, the big companies create jobs and pay taxes but a lot of the time it's not what it could, or should, be due to moving profits around and other tax dodges. How about a temporary 60% tax rate on income over 150k and a 75% tax rate on income over £500k?
		
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Two things..
1) there is no such thing as a ‘temporary tax’. In most cases when w surcharge is added as a top up, it ends up being a permanent one. It may start as ‘Hurricane Katrina Relief cess’ but is replaced by ‘Hurricane Ida Relief cess’ because the idea is that people are now used to paying the additional charge 

2) the high tax is self defeating. Personally if I have to pay the state more than half I earn, then I should be elsewhere or have a better accountant.  A person earning 150/500 is not suddenly going to live with another big chunk taken. Paye will be most hit.  Counties with high tax (eg nordics) provide a commensurate level of healthcare, education, housing  etc. which is lacking at the moment


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Two things..
1) there is no such thing as a ‘temporary tax’. In most cases when w surcharge is added as a top up, it ends up being a permanent one. It may start as ‘Hurricane Katrina Relief cess’ but is replaced by ‘Hurricane Ida Relief cess’ because the idea is that people are now used to paying the additional charge

2) the high tax is self defeating. Personally if I have to pay the state more than half I earn, then I should be elsewhere or have a better accountant.  A person earning 150/500 is not suddenly going to live with another big chunk taken. Paye will be most hit.  *Counties with high tax (eg nordics) provide a commensurate level of healthcare, education, housing  etc. which is lacking at the moment*

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But isn't that at least part of what we are looking to do by raising NI? We're looking to provide a better standard of healthcare - or at least we are if the money raised actually goes to the areas that it's being claimed it will go to. I just think it would be better to make the very well off pay for this change rather than making the poorer in society also pay for it.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			But isn't that at least part of what we are looking to do by raising NI? We're looking to provide a better standard of healthcare - or at least we are if the money raised actually goes to the areas that it's being claimed it will go to. I just think it would be better to make the very well off pay for this change rather than making the poorer in society also pay for it.
		
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A lot of ‘well off’ are asset rich and cash poor too.. any changes to Inheritance tax?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

Mudball said:



			A lot of ‘well off’ are asset rich and cash poor too.. any changes to Inheritance tax?
		
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And a lot of well off will also be landlords renting out their multiple properties to those who will be paying this increased tax while they themselves won't be paying it.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			But isn't that at least part of what we are looking to do by raising NI? We're looking to provide a better standard of healthcare - or at least we are if the money raised actually goes to the areas that it's being claimed it will go to. I just think it would be better to make the very well off pay for this change rather than making the poorer in society also pay for it.
		
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I'm in no way part of the very well off. But, they already pay a significant portion of the tax bill. How much more do we think they will pay? Previous attempts to raise higher rate tax has resulted in a reduction in tax income. 

There are multiple places to go for the extra cash. 
People providing for their own care through capital gains. 
Going after the black economy.
Efficiency savings in other departments. 
Reform of the NHS. 
Higher pay across the board. 
Massive tax rises on crap food, tobacco and booze. 
Very controversial but. Maybe stop intervening to keep people alive for the sake of keeping them alive. I wouldn't like to guess at what it cost to keep my grandma, and my wife's grandma alive for a few extra months when they were completely unaware of anything going on around them. 

The burden of looking after society should fall on us all. 

Maybe a flat rate of tax on everyone is the fair answer.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			But isn't that at least part of what we are looking to do by raising NI? We're looking to provide a better standard of healthcare - or at least we are if the money raised actually goes to the areas that it's being claimed it will go to. I just think it would be better to make the very well off pay for this change rather than making the poorer in society also pay for it.
		
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Better still, why not cut down on the horrendous waste of money that goes on in the NHS and the stupid bureaucracy that it's riddled with. I've seen the waste  that goes on, countless wrong supplies sent to my daughter after she came home from surgery a few years back, and all anyone would say was "dont send it back, throw it/them away"
Its criminal the amount of waste within the NHS.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I'm in no way part of the very well off. But, they already pay a significant portion of the tax bill. How much more do we think they will pay? Previous attempts to raise higher rate tax has resulted in a reduction in tax income.

There are multiple places to go for the extra cash.
People providing for their own care through capital gains.
Going after the black economy.
Efficiency savings in other departments.
Reform of the NHS.
Higher pay across the board.
Massive tax rises on crap food, tobacco and booze.
Very controversial but. Maybe stop intervening to keep people alive for the sake of keeping them alive. I wouldn't like to guess at what it cost to keep my grandma, and my wife's grandma alive for a few extra months when they were completely unaware of anything going on around them.

The burden of looking after society should fall on us all.

Maybe a flat rate of tax on everyone is the fair answer.
		
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I agree with much/most of what you post but the simple fact is that the very well off and the big multinationals will do everything they can to reduce the tax that they pay because they can afford to pay the best accountants to get them the best deal. It's not tax evasion but it is tax avoidance and there are loopholes that could be closed to avoid this happening. How can it be right that companies such as Starbucks or Amazon can pay less in corporation tax in a year than a sole trader electrician (for example), despite making billions in profits, which has happened in the not to distant past?

I would like to see massive tax rises on crap food, tobacco and booze being a cost neutral tax with any profits from that put into reducing the cost of healthier foods. For example, if you raise £1 billion from taxing turkey twizzlers then you use that to reduce the price of fruit and veg.

I've never understood why we don't have a central processing location for all NHS orders. The NHS is such a massive organisation, that would be ordering in massive quantities, that they would be able to get huge discounts on the upfront cost of everything from plasters and lightbulbs to ECG machines to toilet paper. Have a massive warehouse in Birmingham that orders in everything that's needed and ships it out to the individual facilities across the country.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 7, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Better still, why not cut down on the *horrendous waste of money that goes on in the NHS and the stupid bureaucracy that it's riddled with*. I've seen the waste  that goes on, countless wrong supplies sent to my daughter after she came home from surgery a few years back, and all anyone would say was "dont send it back, throw it/them away"
Its criminal the amount of waste within the NHS.
		
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This is often used against the NHS,  if it were to be true you would expect that other similar economies would be paying less for their healthcare,  where the reality is we are near the bottom of that league.  The US, the often lauded as the land of efficiency, pay more than twice what is paid in the UK yet have poorer outcomes..


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## Hobbit (Sep 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've never understood why we don't have a central processing location for all NHS orders. The NHS is such a massive organisation, that would be ordering in massive quantities, that they would be able to get huge discounts on the upfront cost of everything from plasters and lightbulbs to ECG machines to toilet paper. Have a massive warehouse in Birmingham that orders in everything that's needed and ships it out to the individual facilities across the country.
		
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“We” do have central purchasing for the NHS and have had for about 20 years. Called NHS Supply Chain, and set up by Tony Blair’s Labour govt, majority DHL owned. The Tories have since re-nationalised. It even negotiates service contracts. There used to be one large facility near Leeds, next to the M1 but there are now 3(?).


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## Crazyface (Sep 8, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I heard a rumour that Tesco are paying their delivery drivers £35 a hour, anyone know if is this true ?
		
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LOL, if they are, they still can't get people to do the job round here.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 8, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			LOL, if they are, they still can't get people to do the job round here.
		
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For class 1 drivers only.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 8, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			This is often used against the NHS,  if it were to be true you would expect that other similar economies would be paying less for their healthcare,  where the reality is we are near the bottom of that league.  The US, the often lauded as the land of efficiency, pay more than twice what is paid in the UK yet have poorer outcomes..
		
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Perhaps it’s used because of  user experienc.
Both of my daughters have needed crutches at various times in their life. Each time it’s “where do we return them to?”  with the answer being “we don’t want them back, through them away”
My youngest daughter has Chrones, and after her last major surgery the amount of supplies Sent through wrong including drugs and each time when asked the same question about returning them, it’s “throw them away”.
Now what are you supposed to take from instances like that? The NHS wastes horrendous amount, there is no other answer you can give.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 8, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			For class 1 drivers only.
		
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A very good friend of mine does class 1, moving very large plant abou. He is  changing employers and going up to £13 and hour. He goes out Sunday afternoon, and gets home Friday evening. It’s not a glamorous life and definitely isn’t that well paid and that includes the small extra for each night away.
He doesn’t know any company paying £35 an hour for class 1 drivers, a £1k joining bonus yes, but nothing like £35 an hour.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A very good friend of mine does class 1, moving very large plant abou. He is  changing employers and going up to £13 and hour. He goes out Sunday afternoon, and gets home Friday evening. It’s not a glamorous life and definitely isn’t that well paid and that includes the small extra for each night away.
He doesn’t know any company paying £35 an hour for class 1 drivers, a £1k joining bonus yes, but nothing like £35 an hour.
		
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A friend told me that's what Tesco were offering their class1 drivers, maybe he was mistaken and it is only a rumour.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 8, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			A friend told me that's what Tesco were offering their class1 drivers, maybe he was mistaken and it is only a rumour.
		
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It's quite easily true. Supply and demand. There is a massive shortage of class one drivers so they are getting more money offered to tempt them to drive for that company 

When we had more drivers they were paid a lot less


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps it’s used because of  user experienc.
Both of my daughters have needed crutches at various times in their life. Each time it’s “where do we return them to?”  with the answer being “we don’t want them back, through them away”
My youngest daughter has Chrones, and after her last major surgery the amount of supplies Sent through wrong including drugs and each time when asked the same question about returning them, it’s “throw them away”.
Now what are you supposed to take from instances like that? The NHS wastes horrendous amount, there is no other answer you can give.
		
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Maybe someone like @Ethan may know more about this.  
1) For old kits like crutches, they may or maynot be recycled
2) opened half strips of meds are never recycled. 
3) 300m in annual loss due to unopened meds (Source: https://www.recyclenow.com/what-to-do-with/medicines-0 )
4) There seems to be bits that can be avoided e.g. being sent the wrong meds.  

i am sure every bit that can be saved should be or is being looked at. However, given the operational size of the NHS, a level of waste is unavoidable.


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## Ethan (Sep 8, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Maybe someone like @Ethan may know more about this. 
1) For old kits like crutches, they may or maynot be recycled
2) opened half strips of meds are never recycled.
3) 300m in annual loss due to unopened meds (Source: https://www.recyclenow.com/what-to-do-with/medicines-0 )
4) There seems to be bits that can be avoided e.g. being sent the wrong meds. 

i am sure every bit that can be saved should be or is being looked at. However, given the operational size of the NHS, a level of waste is unavoidable.
		
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Crutches are often recycled, people who hurt their ankle, say, are often given crutches at the ED and are often asked to return them. Medicine is wasted in two ways - given to people who don't take it at all or properly, and given to people who then have their prescription changed. The NHS is obsessed by the latter, which I think is less important, and in an attempt to limit it, issue short duration prescriptions requiring patients to get them refilled more often than they need, so that wastes people's time instead. I think you can recycle blister packs, the metallic packs where you push a pill out through the foil, at Superdrug. 

On the NI funding, pity that the chance to clamp down on tax evasion, offshoring, non-doms and all that stuff was missed. Yet again.


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## GB72 (Sep 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Crutches are often recycled, people who hurt their ankle, say, are often given crutches at the ED and are often asked to return them. Medicine is wasted in two ways - given to people who don't take it at all or properly, and given to people who then have their prescription changed. The NHS is obsessed by the latter, which I think is less important, and in an attempt to limit it, issue short duration prescriptions requiring patients to get them refilled more often than they need, so that wastes people's time instead. I think you can recycle blister packs, the metallic packs where you push a pill out through the foil, at Superdrug.

On the NI funding, pity that the chance to clamp down on tax evasion, offshoring, non-doms and all that stuff was missed. Yet again.
		
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Based on the fact that it is now pretty painless to have your prescription delivered once you have done the original set up, is it more viable these days to have shorter duration prescriptions?

My biggest frustration on waste is with my blood pressure meds. One of the pills comes in 14 day blister packs (days marked on it, very helpful) whilst the other comes in blister packs of 10 (3 in a box) and so there is always a couple left over at the end and I wish I would say that I am frugal enough to save those 2 for the following month but, to be honest, they are often wasted when I open a new prescription. Surely just packing all pills that are taken regularly in a 7 or 14 pill blister pack makes sense.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps it’s used because of  user experienc.
Both of my daughters have needed crutches at various times in their life. Each time it’s “where do we return them to?”  with the answer being “we don’t want them back, through them away”
My youngest daughter has Chrones, and after her last major surgery the amount of supplies Sent through wrong including drugs and each time when asked the same question about returning them, it’s “throw them away”.
Now what are you supposed to take from instances like that? The NHS wastes horrendous amount, there is no other answer you can give.
		
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I can give many examples of private buisinesses who do the same, usually because its not worth the cost of collecting wrongly delivered items and having the infrastructure in place to ensure thwy can be re-issued.  Though sometimes of course  its because a lack of efficiency,  indeed a friend of mine has recently acquired a brand new electric trolley  after a friend had two delivered by a very well known golf retailer. No organisation I have had the pleasure of dealing with has been 100% efficient,  But my own experuence is that for the money we contribute the NHS is better than most.


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## Ethan (Sep 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Based on the fact that it is now pretty painless to have your prescription delivered once you have done the original set up, is it more viable these days to have shorter duration prescriptions?

My biggest frustration on waste is with my blood pressure meds. One of the pills comes in 14 day blister packs (days marked on it, very helpful) whilst the other comes in blister packs of 10 (3 in a box) and so there is always a couple left over at the end and I wish I would say that I am frugal enough to save those 2 for the following month but, to be honest, they are often wasted when I open a new prescription. Surely just packing all pills that are taken regularly in a 7 or 14 pill blister pack makes sense.
		
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Most pills are packed in 7 or 14 day packs. The prescriptions should be driven by time rather than pack size. I recently had to point out to my local practice that they seem to think that 12 prescriptions of 28 days will cover a calendar year, but it is 29 (or 30 in a leap year) days short, and therefore they are doing annual medical reviews a month earlier each year and doing too many of them.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2021)

My BIL is a class 1 driver and started driving for Aldi. He said they are the best for pay and conditions he has ever worked for.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's quite easily true. Supply and demand. There is a massive shortage of class one drivers so they are getting more money offered to tempt them to drive for that company

When we had more drivers they were paid a lot less
		
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I have family connections with the haulage industry and am being told that the media are massively overstating the situation. 

There are difficulties in getting recruits trained and qualified and some experienced drivers have left and, of those, some have returned home. Many of the latter had always intended to. 

But I  am told the overall shortage is nowhere near as bad as suggested. 

As I said this is what I hear from a haulage operator.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A very good friend of mine does class 1, moving very large plant abou. He is  changing employers and going up to £13 and hour. He goes out Sunday afternoon, and gets home Friday evening. It’s not a glamorous life and definitely isn’t that well paid and that includes the small extra for each night away.
He doesn’t know any company paying £35 an hour for class 1 drivers, a £1k joining bonus yes, but nothing like £35 an hour.
		
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BM, is he saying he is on £13 an hour For class1


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			BM, is he saying he is on £13 an hour For class1
		
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That is exactly what I am saying, £13 and some pence an hour. He just got an increase through changing employers so he's got a £2 hour increase. I couldn't believe how poorly paid he is for the skill he needs moving that plant around the roads without touching anything.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 8, 2021)

Makes me laugh when you hear business owners moaning they can’t get skilled staff.
Why not try training your own!
They want someone else to pay for the training then leave to go and work for them.
Bricklayers are a rare thing these days because firms just brought them in from abroad.
Apprenticeships were the norm once .
Firms used to train the staff they needed for the future, now they just poach somebody else’s.
We had 16 ,four in every year, four days in work and one in college.
It’s cost cutting consequences. And bad management.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			That is exactly what I am saying, £13 and some pence an hour. He just got an increase through changing employers so he's got a £2 hour increase. I couldn't believe how poorly paid he is for the skill he needs moving that plant around the roads without touching anything.
		
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Just spoke to lad, (  come out of hospital today having had his appendix out yesterday) £13 is the basic rate around here but there is extra rates if you go over certain hours. I know the government has changed the laws to get more drivers going into class 1. But that will not stop drivers from leaving. It really is a shocking occupation if you are a family man.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just spoke to lad, (  come out of hospital today having had his appendix out yesterday) £13 is the basic rate around here but there is extra rates if you go over certain hours. I know the government has changed the laws to get more drivers going into class 1. But that will not stop drivers from leaving. It really is a shocking occupation if you are a family man.
		
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The question to ask is: are Truck Drivers who leave going to get better paid jobs.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The question to ask is: are Truck Drivers who leave going to get better paid jobs.
		
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No - quite likely not.. 

But they will get more amenable/more sociable working arrangements. And many of them think the drop in money is worth it (or, more correctly, that the T&Cs of driving aren't worth the extra money)


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## Tashyboy (Sep 9, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			No - quite likely not..

But they will get more amenable/more sociable working arrangements. And many of them think the drop in money is worth it (or, more correctly, that the T&Cs of driving aren't worth the extra money)
		
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I think this is it, my lad who came out of hospital yesterday evening was talking to a workmate, married with 3 kids. He left for Scotland 1.00 am Monday morning. He got home 3.pm yesterday. The money can be good but there is a trade off.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2021)

My dad was a HGV driver in the 70s 80s he would go to work mon and come home Friday.
Roads were not as good then but it’s not a job I would like to do.
Especially with the muppets on the roads now.


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2021)

It’s almost like capitalism, when left unchecked, is a race to the bottom where the workers are ultimately those to pay while those at the top get richer.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It’s almost like capitalism, when left unchecked, is a race to the bottom where the workers are ultimately those to pay while those at the top get richer.
		
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And those who have never experienced anything but good times don't seem to understand why things arent all smelling of roses for everyone


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## rudebhoy (Sep 9, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My dad was a HGV driver in the 70s 80s he would go to work mon and come home Friday.
Roads were not as good then but it’s not a job I would like to do.
*Especially with the muppets on the roads now.*

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Has the standard of driving got worse since the 80s or are we just grumpy old men?

There are a lot less drunk drivers these days, that's for sure. My old man used to finish work, drive to the pub, sit in there from 5pm to 8pm getting shit-faced, then drive home. 5 days a week. When I was playing football, it was the norm to have 3 or 4 pints then drive home. Even worse on a Sunday as you were topping up on the skinful you'd had the night before. 

Thank god those days are gone.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Has the standard of driving got worse since the 80s or are we just grumpy old men?

There are a lot less drunk drivers these days, that's for sure. My old man used to finish work, drive to the pub, sit in there from 5pm to 8pm getting shit-faced, then drive home. 5 days a week. When I was playing football, it was the norm to have 3 or 4 pints then drive home. Even worse on a Sunday as you were topping up on the skinful you'd had the night before.

Thank god those days are gone.
		
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That’s a shock .
I never did that neither did anyone I know but my licence was my living so was my dads.

But since taking up golf !
Met a few at golf clubs who still do it now.

I was talking about the sober ones in general they don’t need a skinful to be bad drivers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s a shock .
I never did that neither did anyone I know but my licence was my living so was my dads.

But since taking up golf !
Met a few at golf clubs who still do it now.

I was talking about the sober ones in general they don’t need a skinful to be bad drivers.
		
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I've said this before on here but I suspect if the police set up testing sites outside of golf clubs on a Saturday afternoon there would be an awful lot of men and women losing their licences. Not the majority but a definite core who think it doesn't affect them so it is okay.  Make that a rural course and I would bet the percentage increases. Sad but true.


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've said this before on here but I suspect if the police set up testing sites outside of golf clubs on a Saturday afternoon there would be an awful lot of men and women losing their licences. Not the majority but a definite core who think it doesn't affect them so it is okay.  Make that a rural course and I would bet the percentage increases. Sad but true.
		
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Aside from those who wilffuly have 3 or 4 pints and drive (and I may get slaughtered for this but certainly see that as mainly a generational thing now) people just rely on supposed facts that have not been true for ages, if they ever were. You can drink 2 pints, no you cannot. Aside from the impact of a pint on individuals, most pints are stronger now and many now mean that even 1 pint will put you over the limit. You can have a glass of wine. Glasses were a lot smaller when those rumours started and most measures now would bump you over the limit. 

If I am driving I will not touch a drop and if I am driving early the next day, i tend not to drink the night before either.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Aside from those who wilffuly have 3 or 4 pints and drive (and I may get slaughtered for this but certainly see that as mainly a generational thing now) people just rely on supposed facts that have not been true for ages, if they ever were. You can drink 2 pints, no you cannot. Aside from the impact of a pint on individuals, most pints are stronger now and many now mean that even 1 pint will put you over the limit. You can have a glass of wine. Glasses were a lot smaller when those rumours started and most measures now would bump you over the limit.

If I am driving I will not touch a drop and if I am driving early the next day, i tend not to drink the night before either.
		
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Agree with every aspect of this .

I've been a member at my course for nearly 5 years now. I have to drive to it and I have never had an alcoholic drink there in all those years. It's a mindset thing, not hard.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agree with every aspect of this .

I've been a member at my course for nearly 5 years now. I have to drive to it and I have never had an alcoholic drink there in all those years. It's a mindset thing, not hard.
		
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Getting a bit off subject but the problem is that the Bar tends to be the focal point inside golf clubs and as such reinforce the drink culture.  Maybe it would be better if they were laid out more like a Cafe and alcohol was not on display.  This was always a problem in the armed forces, the Mess system was centered around the bar and encouraged people to start drinking early in the day.


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## Mudball (Sep 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting a bit off subject but the problem is that the Bar tends to be the focal point inside golf clubs and as such reinforce the drink culture.  Maybe it would be better if they were laid out more like a Cafe and alcohol was not on display.  This was always a problem in the armed forces, the Mess system was centered around the bar and encouraged people to start drinking early in the day.
		
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Bringing it back to the subject.. does the bar have the right staff these days or is the Pro running it too?


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting a bit off subject but the problem is that the Bar tends to be the focal point inside golf clubs and as such reinforce the drink culture.  Maybe it would be better if they were laid out more like a Cafe and alcohol was not on display.  This was always a problem in the armed forces, the Mess system was centered around the bar and encouraged people to start drinking early in the day.
		
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Fully agree, would never happen and would not be supported by most but I would be in favour of ditching the bar and the bar staff, getting in a quality coffee machine and barrista and being a cafe first with a small bottle bar for those who cannot live without a drink. To tie it in with subject matter, the country as a whole will never change when every venue focusses mainly on selling you alcohol then acts all shocked when people get drunk and misbehave.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting a bit off subject but the problem is that the Bar tends to be the focal point inside golf clubs and as such reinforce the drink culture.  Maybe it would be better if they were laid out more like a Cafe and alcohol was not on display.  This was always a problem in the armed forces, the Mess system was centered around the bar and encouraged people to start drinking early in the day.
		
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GB72 said:



			Fully agree, would never happen and would not be supported by most but I would be in favour of ditching the bar and the bar staff, getting in a quality coffee machine and barrista and being a cafe first with a small bottle bar for those who cannot live without a drink. To tie it in with subject matter, the country as a whole will never change when every venue focusses mainly on selling you alcohol then acts all shocked when people get drunk and misbehave.
		
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Really interesting points. Would any club dare try it? Which will be the first clubs with a Costa franchise in it?


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Really interesting points. Would any club dare try it? Which will be the first clubs with a Costa franchise in it?
		
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I would happily buy a drink on arrival, one to take out with me and one on return if there was a decent coffee franchise in the club. On a hot day, an iced coffee or one of the iced fruit drinks they so would be heaven. Far rather that than a beer in the middle of the day.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Bringing it back to the subject.. does the bar have the right staff these days or is the Pro running it too?
		
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I'm not aware of a club where the Pro runs the Bar, I guess there are some small clubs where the pro does this though.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully agree, would never happen and would not be supported by most but I would be in favour of ditching the bar and the bar staff, getting in a quality coffee machine and barrista and being a cafe first with a small bottle bar for those who cannot live without a drink. To tie it in with subject matter, the country as a whole will never change when every venue focusses mainly on selling you alcohol then acts all shocked when people get drunk and misbehave.
		
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Id much rather a decent cafe type place to eat after a round than a bar 

Would be great to see a club do it


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Id much rather a decent cafe type place to eat after a round than a bar

Would be great to see a club do it
		
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Would love to have seen someone try at my old club. The old boys who see themselves as the great and the good would never vote to lose their 3 or 4 pints of old ferret worrier or a couple of bottles of cheap red.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Would love to have seen someone try at my old club. The old boys who see themselves as the great and the good would never vote to lose their 3 or 4 pints of old ferret worrier or a couple of bottles of cheap red.
		
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My current club is very new and have gone down the country club route 

So I can see a cafe wouldn't work for them as they going up market and host events.  Golfers are nice to get in there but you get more than 

My old club was similar but different. Was a proper restaurant just with a golf course attached 

Loads of people go there to eat just happens you can play golf there 

If it's just members I think a cafe would serve most 

Telephone service of pick up orders for half way aswell would be great


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To tie it in with subject matter, the country as a whole will never change _when every venue focusses mainly on selling you alcoho_l then acts all shocked when people get drunk and misbehave.
		
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Although every pub I am aware of is now more focused on selling food rather than drink.  Maybe I no longer go to the places you refer to.   

My golf club seems to have most people driving to it so isn't booze orientated, although I know of exceptions.   I do have neighbours who drink so much they have to put their empties in other peoples' recycling!  Although they do knock on and ask politely if they can do it, and never go out and "misbehave"


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## PNWokingham (Sep 9, 2021)

i am glad i am at a club that has a proper bar and bar-type vibe after golf and not a cafe to have a sandwich and coffee - both of which you can of course have. The 19th and a good social scene, often with liberal libation, is an imprortant and, indeed, essential feature for golf clubs, with associated functions, weddings etc helping top subsidise the running costs. I do not get the recent comments wanting any different and can't see any of my fellow members agreeing either . Nobody forces alcohol and there are all the soft-drink and coffee options available. Golf is a social game with jokes and banter and a 19th hole - or at least it should be - and that is the only version i like.


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i am glad i am at a club that has a proper bar and bar-type vibe after golf and not a cafe to have a sandwich and coffee - both of which you can of course have. The 19th and a good social scene, often with liberal libation, is an imprortant and, indeed, essential feature for golf clubs, with associated functions, weddings etc helping top subsidise the running costs. I do not get the recent comments wanting any different and can't see any of my fellow members agreeing either . Nobody forces alcohol and there are all the soft-drink and coffee options available. Golf is a social game with jokes and banter and a 19th hole - or at least it should be - and that is the only version i like.
		
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If your club mates need a drink to socialise then perhaps that’s not a good sign?


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## PNWokingham (Sep 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			If your club mates need a drink to socialise then perhaps that’s not a good sign?
		
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read what i said. Each to his own but a lot do - are you tryting to moralise against their right to do so?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			If your club mates need a drink to socialise then perhaps that’s not a good sign?
		
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Where did he say that his club mates “need” a drink ?

Our club has a very good social side - it’s a club bar not a coffee shop or cafe , they have them down the town centre. 

That doesn’t mean people have to get an alcoholic drink


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			read what i said. Each to his own but a lot do - are you tryting to moralise against their right to do so?
		
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No.


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where did he say that his club mates “need” a drink ?

Our club has a very good social side - it’s a club bar not a coffee shop or cafe , they have them down the town centre.

That doesn’t mean people have to get an alcoholic drink
		
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He didn’t. It’s called a conversation. Getting really bored with your playing the man not the ball posts over and over.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			He didn’t. It’s called a conversation. Getting really bored with your playing the man not the ball posts over and over.
		
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It’s not a conversation when your response to his post which was about the social aspect of his club and how he enjoys it and it being a big thing for him in the sport was to suggest that his club mates need to drink to socialise 🤷‍♂️


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a conversation when your response to his post which was about the social aspect of his club and how he enjoys it and it being a big thing for him in the sport was to suggest that his club mates need to drink to socialise 🤷‍♂️
		
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Didn’t you see the question mark?


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