# BLM protests/ Riots.



## spongebob59 (Jun 6, 2020)

Just caught some of the footage , what should have been peaceful protest in support of the movement appears to have been infiltrated by scum and turned into a excuse for riots.

Not sure what the answer is.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269358780145381377

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269358783949651969


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## spongebob59 (Jun 6, 2020)

From the above tweet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269267304342306819


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2020)

Well for a start they protests shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead. 

Firstly I'll say that in normal. Times they should have gone ahead and that those rioting are clearly not those following the movement for genuine reasons. 

But how on earth they could have expected people to stick to social distancing is beyond me. 

We've had strict rules for everyone to follow but imo the powers that be feared looking racist if they refused it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2020)

As happened with the Tottenham rights there will always be those elements in society that will use it to cause unrest and it then ends up masking the important message that was the cause of the protest in the first place.


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## User20205 (Jun 6, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well for a start they protests shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead.

Firstly I'll say that in normal. Times they should have gone ahead and that those rioting are clearly not those following the movement for genuine reasons.

But how on earth they could have expected people to stick to social distancing is beyond me.

We've had strict rules for everyone to follow but imo the powers that be feared looking racist if they refused it.
		
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Don’t disagree re allowing them to go ahead in the current situation. Not sure how you stop it


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2020)

therod said:



			Don’t disagree re allowing them to go ahead in the current situation. Not sure how you stop it
		
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Well the simple thing would simply be quicker and stricter dispersal of crowds at the start. of course the bad press from that would have caused more political damage.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2020)

Guys
That’s enough now please


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## User20205 (Jun 6, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well the simple thing would simply be quicker and stricter dispersal of crowds at the start. of course the bad press from that would have caused more political damage.
		
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Yep. Might prove a problem practically. Not sure the COVID act had mass protest in mind. Maybe the thinking was the threat of death would be enough 😱


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2020)

Quote from a doctor yesterday morning, 'this virus does not respect a worthwhile cause '.

The quote from post 2, who will be responsible for a spike if those present, shoulder to shoulder, pick up and pass on the virus? Absolutely irresponsible.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 7, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well for a start they protests shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead.

Firstly I'll say that in normal. Times they should have gone ahead and that those rioting are clearly not those following the movement for genuine reasons.

But how on earth they could have expected people to stick to social distancing is beyond me.

We've had strict rules for everyone to follow but imo the powers that be feared looking racist if they refused it.
		
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I agree with you and will  add I heard one of the organizers Saying that they would ask protesters to social distance and also self isolate for 7 days after the protest

Totally irresponsible


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

It’s another very hard emotive subject that I believe 99% of us have never had to face - persecution and hatred based on the colour of our skin 

The message that they are trying to put out is the right message - racism and persecution will always need to be tackled 

The problem is two things - the minority that are rioting and also the current pandemic 

Racism has been around for centuries and we as a society should tackle it every day , some of the stuff I have seen on social media from “white privileged “ people has been shocking and a few were removed as friends this week , it’s poor to see. 

But the pandemic is still here , it hasn’t gone away so it’s a very hard morale choice for people

I’m fully supportive of the message they are saying and I would hope everyone is - as we haven’t been in the shoes of someone who has faced racism and persecution it’s very very hard to judge if it can wait until the pandemic goes - especially when the movement is strong right now 

I really hope we don’t have issues with the virus and I hope their message strikes a cord with us all 

Joshua has is right - racism is a pandemic that has never gone away 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/52950772


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## MegaSteve (Jun 7, 2020)

I am having to nod in agreement with Sajid Javid...


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s another very hard emotive subject that I believe 99% of us have never had to face - persecution and hatred based on the colour of our skin

The message that they are trying to put out is the right message - racism and persecution will always need to be tackled

The problem is two things - the minority that are rioting and also the current pandemic

Racism has been around for centuries and we as a society should tackle it every day , some of the stuff I have seen on social media from “white privileged “ people has been shocking and a few were removed as friends this week , it’s poor to see.

But the pandemic is still here , it hasn’t gone away so it’s a very hard morale choice for people

I’m fully supportive of the message they are saying and I would hope everyone is - as we haven’t been in the shoes of someone who has faced racism and persecution it’s very very hard to judge if it can wait until the pandemic goes - especially when the movement is strong right now

I really hope we don’t have issues with the virus and I hope their message strikes a cord with us all

Joshua has is right - racism is a pandemic that has never gone away

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/52950772

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totally agree Phil on the racism issue that has always been a scourge. The only positive is that we live in a society that enables protest and change - and that, despite still being far from acceptable, has moved a great deal in the right direction over the past 70 years - but this progress needs to continue

But the scathing criticism of the rioters, looters, anarchists is another seperate point, and that needs condeming in the same way as the racism. Both two abhorent sides to civil society

The third point is the social distancing and mess that this could cause to the progress we have made - and highlights that teh government can only do so much in contrlong the virus and that we all take responsibility


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2020)

Stay home save life’s.
When we see covid cases rise we’ll just blame the government 🤷‍♂️

And did Joshua really say to only shop in Black owned shops??


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Why could it not just wait? One thing at a time... multi tasking just means doing multiple jobs poorly. 
Covid 19 needs sorting out, then let’s address these issues. Sorry if that is not what you want to read, it’s just pragmatic and a sensible non emotional response.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

I was going to say that I can’t believe the tweet from Dawn “nodding dog” Butler but then I remembered the woman is a cretin and has to blame the government


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			I was going to say that I can’t believe the tweet from Dawn “nodding dog” Butler but then I remembered the woman is a cretin and has to blame the government
		
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Was that the one saying to the government 
“ don’t you dare blame the protesters if there is a second Covid spike”

Of course it’s not their fault ......doh 🙄🙄


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Why could it not just wait? One thing at a time... multi tasking just means doing multiple jobs poorly.
Covid 19 needs sorting out, then let’s address these issues. Sorry if that is not what you want to read, it’s just pragmatic and a sensible non emotional response.
		
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That’s the emotive issue - it’s fine for us to say “why not wait to fight racism” when we haven’t faced it and for some they may see it as a bigger battle to fight than the Covid Pandemic - it’s very hard for us to judge.

It’s clearly a very powerful message right now when you look at the worldwide protests and it’s got to be a case of striking when the iron is hot 

Racism will still be there and will still need to be tackled every day once the pandemic goes but the impact of the protests or marches etc could be significantly less and forgotten. 

These marches are aimed towards us as well to help , to be a part of tackling this issue


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Meanwhile in US, GOT makes an appearance


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269551408304533504
Abolish the police and replace with trumps army 🙄😲


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

The stupidity continue s


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269370235628511233


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Problem is that it is a multi faceted issue and racism is just part of it

A major part is why the police in the USA act like that? Then you remember the widespread availability of firearms and so they must have to assume that everyone they come into contact with may be armed.

Then you begin to understand how deep these problems go, it does not excuse their behaviour, but it does provide a reason why they are so heavy handed.

However, anyone face down in cuffs does not pose a significant threat any more,


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well said.

The ability to say "lets park this issue for now" is an incredible privilege for those of us for whom it's not an everyday part of our lives. It's an issue that has always been with us and we have simply not been tackling it. I am so angry at people lambasting the protesters while either paying lip service to the issue they are protesting or ignoring it altogether.
		
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If the virus spreads through the crowds yesterday, spreads to others that the protesters go home to will you be really angry then as well? The cause is 100% just, the gathering yesterday totally irresponsible. 

I'll repeat the quote given earlier, this virus doesn't recognise a just cause. It kills.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the virus spreads through the crowds yesterday, spreads to others that the protesters go home to will you be really angry then as well? The cause is 100% just, the gathering yesterday totally irresponsible.

I'll repeat the quote given earlier, this virus doesn't recognise a just cause. It kills.
		
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Yep


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269551012429336576


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Problem is that it is a multi faceted issue and racism is just part of it

A major part is why the police in the USA act like that? Then you remember the widespread availability of firearms and so they must have to assume that everyone they come into contact with may be armed.

Then you begin to understand how deep these problems go, it does not excuse their behaviour, but it does provide a reason why they are so heavy handed.

However, anyone face down in cuffs does not pose a significant threat any more,
		
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Sorry but racism is a massive part of it all - it’s right at the heart of the matter. These things happen because black people are still persecuted because of their skin colour - that’s what is deep rooted in the US and has been for a long time and right now they have a leader who is the epitome of the racism and persecution people face. 

The problem is racism - tackle that and many other problems disappear


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## adam6177 (Jun 7, 2020)

I have been sent many videos of what is happening in America that isn't being reported by the main stream news.... All that happens is that it undermines what the real message should be and unfortunately strengthens people's pre existing views.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



*And yet it's predominantly black people the police are murdering.* Why do you seek to diminish the racial aspect?
		
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Is it though? 

I can only use google and I've no idea of the agenda's behind publications in the US so i could be using a totally biased source. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ 

Show's more white killed than black. Now there are also a lot more white people, so that would suggest a higher percentage of black people are killed, but that could be countered by the fact that more black people are incarcerated so actually it's a smaller percentage of black criminals killed than white.

Racism OBVIOUSLY exists, and I truly believe that it can be attributed to most of the reasons why the black community IN THE US are driven to break the law more frequently. Desperation leads to poor choices. But the stats appear to suggest that police brutality over there is the problem with the force, not the colour of the skin of the person who then gets the brunt of said brutality. I also agree that the gun laws can in someway explain why cops would shoot first and ask questions later.

To be clear, none of the above excuses the murder that was the catalyst for all this, but to try and use it as some sort of realistic example of the police force is imo false.


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## Neilds (Jun 7, 2020)

Another issue with the lack of social distancing, etc, is that this virus is worse for black people with a higher death Rate from the BAME community. I know people feel very strongly about the cause but they still need to be sensible about large gatherings. I can definitely see a spike in cases and deaths unfortunately


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Is it though?

I can only use google and I've no idea of the agenda's behind publications in the US so i could be using a totally biased source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

Show's more white killed than black. Now there are also a lot more white people, so that would suggest a higher percentage of black people are killed, but that could be countered by the fact that more black people are incarcerated so actually it's a smaller percentage of black criminals killed than white.

Racism OBVIOUSLY exists, and I truly believe that it can be attributed to most of the reasons why the black community IN THE US are driven to break the law more frequently. Desperation leads to poor choices. But the stats appear to suggest that police brutality over there is the problem with the force, not the colour of the skin of the person who then gets the brunt of said brutality. I also agree that the gun laws can in someway explain why cops would shoot first and ask questions later.

To be clear, none of the above excuses the murder that was the catalyst for all this, but to try and use it as some sort of realistic example of the police force is imo false.
		
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Over the past couple of days and have seen the same stats over and over again and looking at pure raw numbers it’s not great at all but it’s misses a couple of things 

1. The percentage of the population that are black and indeed killed by the police 

2. How many of those that were killed in the act of a serious crime or those that were killed because of the colour of their skin 
People committing serious crime then I would expect and hope the reaction is the same

But how many white people are killed just because they are white 

Would a white man have been killed in the same situation as George Floyd ?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			And yet it's predominantly black people the police are murdering. Why do you seek to diminish the racial aspect?
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363

So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well said.

The ability to say "lets park this issue for now" is an incredible privilege for those of us for whom it's not an everyday part of our lives. It's an issue that has always been with us and we have simply not been tackling it. I am so angry at people lambasting the protesters while either paying lip service to the issue they are protesting or ignoring it altogether.
		
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it’s not about privilege it’s about having clarity of thought and seeing a bigger picture. As stated the virus doesn’t give a damn about who you are or the colour of your skin, it will infect you ... where it goes from there I suppose it does. To endanger yourself, put others at risk, upset the process that is in place was an emotional decision not one of rationale.

Ask yourself this morning, where do we all stand .. quite clearly we are divided, I completely agree from my white privileged position in BLM but I disagree with unnecessary risks. The power of social media the ability to bring this in a non physical manner to the attention of those in government had not been fully exploited.. yes weight of numbers makes a statement. But under current circumstances not the method to be deployed ... there is no counter argument to this.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Over the past couple of days and have seen the same stats over and over again and looking at pure raw numbers it’s not great at all but it’s misses a couple of things

1. The percentage of the population that are black and indeed killed by the police

2. How many of those that were killed in the act of a serious crime or those that were killed because of the colour of their skin
People committing serious crime then I would expect and hope the reaction is the same

But how many white people are killed just because they are white

Would a white man have been killed in the same situation as George Floyd ?
		
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1, is one of those that stats can shown either way, as i showed in my post.

2, from the source i quoted. Only 56 were described as unarmed. 15/236 or 6.4% of the black victims and 25/376 6.6% of white victims. So it wouldn't appear to be a disproportionate response to crimes. The only stat i could see that supports a prejudice is that a much higher amount of the white people shot were described as mentally ill. Something that appears to be used as a get out for mass shootings. Of course that could be countered by saying that as a wealthier part of society, whites are more likely to have seen a shrink and been diagnosed (gotta love stats).

3, Do i think white people are murdered for being white? Yes, I do. As frequently as the other way around? No. 

The problem for me is that i consider those guilty of Floyds murder as racist criminals. The fact they were cops is irrelevant. With a mass racist core obviously there will be racists in every walk of life, but the way the whole force will now be targeted because of this movement is disproportionate to the facts imo.


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2020)

Do not assume that racial incidents are all white on black. A significant proportion is black on black, and black on white, or Asian on white, Asian on black, black on Asian etc. 

In countries where Caucasians are the minority the situation is often reversed.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2020)

You have to be careful when looking at stats,if people like what they see they’re all over it and don’t look at the bigger picture.


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			You have to be careful when looking at stats,if people like what they see they’re all over it and don’t look at the bigger picture.
		
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Absolutely spot on. And we also need to be very mindful of how words are interpreted and spun to suit an agenda.

I recall, many years ago, the then Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police stating that the vast majority of street robberies were committed by young black males.

Cue uproar from anti-racism lobbyists, who interpreted that as the most senior cop in the country saying most black males were robbers.

He wasn’t. He was quoting statistical fact. NOT that most young black males were robbers, because of course they aren’t. Merely that most robberies were committed by that demographic.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but racism is a massive part of it all - it’s right at the heart of the matter. These things happen because black people are still persecuted because of their skin colour - that’s what is deep rooted in the US and has been for a long time and right now they have a leader who is the epitome of the racism and persecution people face.

The problem is racism - tackle that and many other problems disappear
		
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Don’t get me wrong, I am not underplaying the racism issue, at all, merely linking it in with other issues that to my mind go hand in hand


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## MegaSteve (Jun 7, 2020)

The statistics indicate, to me, we've found it too easy/convenient to put the kids/grandkids of the good people who came here from our commonwealth on ignore... Then point blank indulged in denying it...


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="Kaz, post: 2186682, member: 27823"And people who were quite happy with government advisers flouting the lockdown, with VE day parties and crowded beaches suddenly being vocal critics.[/QUOTE]

I don't think any of these caused riots as an excuse to attack the police


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I am reluctant to weigh in on that since it appears there was a stooshie last night and someone banned for suggesting the police shouldn't be charging horses into groups of protesters. Suffice to say it looks like the response to protests about police brutality has been more police brutality. The world over.
		
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Just to clarify, the person involved deliberately posted the videos and links in the “Things that gladden the heart” thread,
Which is just wrong. 
An infraction was given which took his live points total to 17, resulting in a 2 week ban, 
He was not banned for specifically posting this content.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Most of the reports I've seen say the horse bolted as objects were thrown at it.


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I am reluctant to weigh in on that since it appears there was a stooshie last night and someone banned for suggesting the police shouldn't be charging horses into groups of protesters. Suffice to say it looks like the response to protests about police brutality has been more police brutality. The world over.
		
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I really did want to stay out of this discussion but I cannot let that pass.

Have you ever actually policed a full scale riot? Been standing there, in full riot gear, whilst petrol bombs, bricks, darts and all manner of missiles are thrown at you, BB guns fired at you, and all under the gaze of the media and press, who are just praying for one police officer to overstep the mark, so they can go to town on that single snapshot?

Because I have, and if you think that the response from the police should be for them to remain passive and make no attempt to regain order then you are living in dreamland.

I am absolutely not condoning what we saw in the US last week. Far from it. But I don’t see too many media reports detailing the HUNDREDS of officers injured over there during their attempts to maintain order. Some have been shot, some deliberately targeted by rioters in vehicles, and many of them have sustained horrible injuries.

But you focus on police “brutality” if it makes you feel better.


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I saw a line of police horses riding at protesters so hardly just that one had bolted. Mixed reports as to whether the police action was in response to crowd violence or caused it.
		
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Do you really think, with the world’s media watching, and doubtless hundreds of members of the public watching on with their camera phones recording every move, that the police are going to charge on horseback towards a peaceful protest?

Really?


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I am very conflicted about protesting this issue just now. It is massively important and has been swept under the carpet for too long and now there is real momentum and an opportunity to make progress. Yet mass gatherings are anathema at the moment due to the pandemic so how do we rationalise that? Personally, I want to join the protests today but have decided not to because of the virus. But I support the cause 100%

My big objection to many people on social media and this forum as well is the completely lop-sided criticism of the protests with little or no comment on the issues being protested. And people who were quite happy with government advisers flouting the lockdown, with VE day parties and crowded beaches suddenly being vocal critics.
		
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no pandemic and I would be marching as well. I struggle with gender and colour being reasons to treat people differently or poorly. I am also aware that the human behaviour just makes stuff worse, if you treat someone disrespectfully they will reflect that back at you.
I am also of the opinion that the majority went with a noble and peaceful reason, only for a small minority who just want to cause mayhem, giving the media some headlines. The police know this, they know who these people are, and normally they would isolate them or at least try to. I think the police have the hardest job there is. They take abuse and are supposed to turn the other cheek, they try to keep us safe but are poorly supported. I think those pressures cause cracks and bad behaviour and poor judgement occurs ... oh government advisors that have no one to answer to, is a very worrying scenario, but one the majority voted for, I don’t know what else you can do or say, this government has a majority given to it by the people. That majority will be reflected here and pretty much every where because it was so large. Sadly perhaps there is a correlation between one advisors silly behaviour and the people’s... he is obviously quite influential


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It doesn't make me feel better. It's absolutely horrific but surely you can see that policing these protests in that manner is not only wrong but frankly stupid as it is only stoking the tensions further. In many of the instances it would appear there was no crowd violence, no rioting, no disorder until the police weighed in. That's not maintaining order.
		
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You’re seeing what the media are broadcasting. Don’t be so naive.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2020)

Black lives matter but what about the protesters causing damage???


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's on every news broadcast today
		
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See my previous reply.


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## adam6177 (Jun 7, 2020)

I'd be interested to see how the protests would have gone ahead and manifested if there was no police presence.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

All society can do is make the same opportunities in life available to everyone. It's then up to the individual to make the best of those opportunities.   The important question to ask ourselves is 'are we making these opportunities available to everyone'. if the answer is 'yes' then we can do no more, if 'no' then we need to change.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Was that the one saying to the government 
“ don’t you dare blame the protesters if there is a second Covid spike”

Of course it’s not their fault ......doh 🙄🙄
		
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That’s the one


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			I'd be interested to see how the protests would have gone ahead and manifested if there was no police presence.
		
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My impression is that the police largely stood back and the demonstration took place peacefully. Towards the end a very small minority of demonstrators started throwing objects near downing street and other sensitive areas. At that point the police had no option but to step in. If the police had not been there then they would have had to be called. 

The police would have been very aware how sensitive yesterday was. I doubt they would have wanted to be involved if at all possible. Once that minority started attacking buildings what are they supposed to do?


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My impression is that the police largely stood back and the demonstration took place peacefully. Towards the end a very small minority of demonstrators started throwing objects near downing street and other sensitive areas. At that point the police had no option but to step in. If the police had not been there then they would have had to be called.

The police would have been very aware how sensitive yesterday was. I doubt they would have wanted to be involved if at all possible. Once that minority started attacking buildings what are they supposed to do?
		
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Absolutely spot on. I can assure you the entire MPS would have wanted to be anywhere else but policing that protest. And they would have had a very specific briefing which would have been very clear - that any positive action would be an absolute last resort.


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Most of the reports I've seen say the horse bolted as *objects *were thrown at it.
		
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"Objects!" - I think guys throwing a bike at a horse qualifies as being both needless cruelty and excessive violence against a defenceless animal and should be punished as such. Unfortunately in too many cases there are a minority who want to add violence and provocation to garner media exposure.

These rent-a-mob, minority led actions undermine the moral cause.


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## Midnight (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I saw a line of police horses riding at protesters so hardly just that one had bolted. Mixed reports as to whether the police action was in response to crowd violence or caused it.

Whatever, I'd suggest that it's dangerous and cruel to use horses in this manner. A police office and at least one protester were injured.
		
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What tactics would you use?
 Police officers in general are dammed if they do things and dammed if they don't. A lot of officers will be policing the situation to the best of their ability, a lot of them won't want to be there as they agree that all lives matter and would of been hoping that there would be no trouble however they have to do their job. They are in a no win situation . 

I don't agree with what the officers did in America but that will be dealt with.


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Obviously I don't know and it's clearly a horrible situation for them. I don't think I'd ride horses at people as that just seems wrong on all levels. Beyond that I don't want to speculate as I wasn't there to see what was happening. All I'm trying to do is get people condemning the protests to try and think about it a bit more.

When it comes the the situation in America, I hope you're right but the only reason that looks like it might get dealt with is the protests.
		
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Bit of a climb down?

You don’t know what tactics you’d use, simply because you have no knowledge at all of public order tactics. None. Zip.

But you wouldn’t use horses because it “seems” wrong. It’s not. It’s a legitimate tactic used to disperse crowds. But the crowning statement? That you don’t want to speculate because you weren’t there.

With the greatest respect, all you have done is speculate, and worse still, based that speculation purely on what the press and media have ALLOWED you to see. And, of course, the British press and media don’t have an agenda, do they?

Priceless.


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## Midnight (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Obviously I don't know and it's clearly a horrible situation for them. I don't think I'd ride horses at people as that just seems wrong on all levels. Beyond that I don't want to speculate as I wasn't there to see what was happening. All I'm trying to do is get people condemning the protests to try and think about it a bit more.

When it comes the the situation in America, I hope you're right but the only reason that looks like it might get dealt with is the protests.
		
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Unfortunately the problem with protests is that a lot of the time there is a element that don't care about the rights/wrongs or even the cause that people are protesting about, all they care about is causing trouble. I'm all in favour for peaceful protests and people marching for what they believe in. 

I only asked your view on tactics as I have no idea what your background is, just as you don't know mine. 

I think these sort of debates discussions can very quickly go off script as this whole situation is a very emotional subject. 

You are entitled to your view and I certainly would not get into a argument with you for your views mate. 
 We all see things from different view points and it's good to hear other peoples views as it gives us things we may not of thought of.


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've said what I wanted to say in good faith. You and I are clearly not going to get on and I would prefer not to get into an endless argument with someone who sees the world very differently from me.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not a case of getting on or not. We might agree on everything else and find each other great company in real life.

But it really grinds my gears when someone feels free to have a pop at my profession, particularly in a politicised way, when they haven’t got the first clue what they are talking about.

Managing crowds on a large scale, especially where there is significant disorder, is a massive challenge and, for those on the ground, a logistical and often frightening nightmare.

So kindly don’t latch onto small pieces, without having the intelligence to consider the entire jigsaw, to try and score cheap points.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Ok guys n gals
Let’s take 5 here, 👍


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## Billysboots (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I still haven't seen what "significant disorder" provoked that charge. Maybe there was something to make that a proportionate response, maybe not.
		
Click to expand...

That’s my whole point. Right there. 

How can you criticise the response, when you don’t know what prompted it?

If you KNEW what preceded the involvement of police horses then your views may have some merit. But you quite clearly don’t.

I’m sorry, but given your own comments your criticism is totally unwarranted.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

People

leave it there please

Thank you


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What do you think the answer is?
		
Click to expand...

If I Iook at opportunities in this country I would say most of us have the same basic rights and get the same same opportunities in education, which is what can really make a difference to our lives.

It's difficult to give an opinion on what one believes is the cause of poverty and low achievement in some BAME communities. Asian people tend to be quite high achievers and are some of the wealthiest groups in the UK. This IMO is attributed to their willingness to achieve especially in business and their strong family culture.  Many black people also do very well and achieve much although they also have some of the poorest and troubled communities, they are not alone in this respect as there are also some very poor and troubled white communities in the country.

If I try to take a detached view of the causes for these low achieving communities, it is easy to think the problem is a lack of oppertunity or institutional racism, of course there is an element of this but I think one of the major influences is the breakdown of the family unit. Many of the families in these communities are Fatherless, often leaving a Mother to raise a number of children on their own, trying to exist on benefits in poor accommodation, it's no wonder the children find it hard to see a bright future and easily get caught up in crime and poverty.  You rarely see this in Asian communities as family cohesion is very strong.

So what is my answer.  It has to be that we need to face up to the real problems in society and find better ways to improve them. I wish I had a simple answer to this one but the solution has to be somewhere in education and facing up to the real problems. Rioting creates no solutions it only helps to widen divisions.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just to clarify, the person involved deliberately posted the videos and links in the “Things that gladden the heart” thread,
Which is just wrong. 
An infraction was given which took his live points total to 17, resulting in a 2 week ban, 
He was not banned for specifically posting this content.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a way to see a live league table of infraction points? No live sport.. got to get entertainment somewhede!!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

No sorry to disappoint 👍


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Only leaving this because I see the mods are mounting their horses. 

Click to expand...

The thought of fragger mounting anything is truly terrifying


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm sure it is. I'm also sure it's terrifying to see a line of horses charging at you. And I'm sure it's not a lot of fun for the horses either. I still haven't seen what "significant disorder" provoked that charge. Maybe there was something to make that a proportionate response, maybe not.

I don't want to get into an argument with someone who clearly has an axe to grind. So if you can't drop it and move on at least stop getting personal about it.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t believe it was a charge in the video where the rider fell off - the horse bolted when a child’s bike was thrown at it spooking it , unless I’m mistaken the police don’t ever do a horse charge at crowds ?

Edit - to clarify after speaking to someone that who is also part of the mounted police there - the bike was two seperate incidents.  The horse that bolted was hit by a missle - either a bottle or something along those lines 

Then during another incident a bike was thrown towards the horses


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			All society can do is make the same opportunities in life available to everyone. It's then up to the individual to make the best of those opportunities.   The important question to ask ourselves is 'are we making these opportunities available to everyone'. if the answer is 'yes' then we can do no more, if 'no' then we need to change.
		
Click to expand...

I have read the post a number of times and I’m struggling to see the link between it and the current issue with racism and treating people differently based on their colour 

Yes equal opportunities should always be there but what’s the connection to that and how the every man on the street or people in power act towards people of a different colour ?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			No, you posed a question..



I was wondering what you thought the answer to that question is.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I thought a little more and have expanded my answer


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have read the post a number of times and I’m struggling to see the link between it and the current issue with racism and treating people differently based on their colour

Yes equal opportunities should always be there but what’s the connection to that and how the every man on the street or people in power act towards people of a different colour ?
		
Click to expand...

Please read my further post. Although I cannot see what's difficult to understand from the post you quoted.

Maybe you can answer the question.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			No sorry to disappoint 👍
		
Click to expand...

Nevermind!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Please read my further post. Although I cannot see what's difficult to understand from the post you quoted.

Maybe you can answer the question.
		
Click to expand...

Read it and it seems to be focusing on education and family break ups in regards Black people but again I can’t see the link to racism from others 

Some very successful black people have been subjected to racism , high profile sports stars , music , film etc 

Racism exists in all walks of life regardless of education , wealth , family life , upbringing 

I see equal opportunities as a small part of how we treat people the same


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## Crumplezone (Jun 7, 2020)

The police officer fell off her horse after she rode head first into a set of traffic lights. She did not fall off as a direct result of anything being thrown at the police or horses.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			The police officer fell off her horse after she rode head first into a set of traffic lights. She did not fall off as a direct result of anything being thrown at the police or horses.
		
Click to expand...

The horse bolted, Police horses dont bolt for nothing.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			The police officer fell off her horse after she rode head first into a set of traffic lights. She did not fall off as a direct result of anything being thrown at the police or horses.
		
Click to expand...

You should do stand up!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read it and it seems to be focusing on education and family break ups in regards Black people but again I can’t see the link to racism from others

Some very successful black people have been subjected to racism , high profile sports stars , music , film etc

Racism exists in all walks of life regardless of education , wealth , family life , upbringing

I see equal opportunities as a small part of how we treat people the same
		
Click to expand...

I thought the subject was about Black Lives Mattering, that's what my post is aimed at.  You may think it's all about racism, I have tried to look at why there is unrest in certain communities and what causes it, you are looking for a finger pointing excersise.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			The police officer fell off her horse after she rode head first into a set of traffic lights. She did not fall off as a direct result of anything being thrown at the police or horses.
		
Click to expand...

Out of all the toss that has been been posted on this forum over the last few weeks, that is probably the winner


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought the subject was about Black Lives Mattering, that's what my post is aimed at.  You may think it's all about racism, I have tried to look at why there is unrest in certain communities and what causes it, you are looking for a finger pointing excersise.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure where I’m pointing fingers at anyone ? 

The subject is about the current protests and to combat the racism and persecution that black people on a daily basis in all walks of life. Hence why I was confused by your post - it wasn’t finger pointing , it was asking for clarification.


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## Crumplezone (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The horse bolted, Police horses dont bolt for nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Some outlets (IE Mail and Sun) have posted photos of someone rolling a bike towards a completely different horse and police officer. There is no evidence to show what caused the horse to ride into the traffic light or whether it bolted before or after the rider came off.

I don't agree with this violent protest, but it's important to get the story right when the outlets that openly support racism are trying to do down anti racists by posting fabricated versions of what happened.


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t believe it was a charge in the video where the rider fell off - the horse bolted when a child’s bike was thrown at it spooking it ,* unless I’m mistaken the police don’t ever do a horse charge at crowds* ?
		
Click to expand...

Tashyboy would say otherwise!


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## The Autumn Wind (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			The police officer fell off her horse after she rode head first into a set of traffic lights. She did not fall off as a direct result of anything being thrown at the police or horses.
		
Click to expand...

Ive just gone back and read your other 4 posts you made since joining. That’s quite an eye opening set of 5 posts.

I‘m guessing you aren’t a Dale Carnegie fan.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2020)

Sorry, am a bit confused, is racism still bad or are we more upset about a horse riding a bicycle into a crowd? Allegedly.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			Some outlets (IE Mail and Sun) have posted photos of someone rolling a bike towards a completely different horse and police officer. There is no evidence to show what caused the horse to ride into the traffic light or whether it bolted before or after the rider came off.

I don't agree with this violent protest, but it's important to get the story right when the outlets that openly support racism are trying to do down anti racists by posting fabricated versions of what happened.
		
Click to expand...

Oh well forgive me then, didn't realise it was in the Fail, sorry Mail, and the Sun. I obviously dreamt about the video footage clearly showing people seting off fireworks, throwing bottles etc etc as it wasn't in either of those fine upstanding bastions of truth and justice.
Police horses don't bolt for nothing, end of...


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I am reluctant to weigh in on that since it appears there was a stooshie last night and someone banned for suggesting the police shouldn't be charging horses into groups of protesters. Suffice to say it looks like the response to protests about police brutality has been more police brutality. The world over.
		
Click to expand...

Having both worked with & been policed by mounted officers, and seen their training when growing up, I can assure you that was not a charge.  No mounted officer of my acquaintance would want to charge into a crowd, if for no other reason than the love of their working partner, because that is what that relationship is, a partnership.

One mounted officer correctly deployed can do the work of 10 to 20 foot duty officers in public order situations, that is just one reason that we still have them.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			Some outlets (IE Mail and Sun) have posted photos of someone rolling a bike towards a completely different horse and police officer. There is no evidence to show what caused the horse to ride into the traffic light* or whether it bolted before or after the rider came off.*

I don't agree with this violent protest, but it's important to get the story right when the outlets that openly support racism are trying to do down anti racists by posting fabricated versions of what happened.
		
Click to expand...

Well as the video shows the horse bolting with the rider still on its' back and both horse and rider hitting the lamppost then I'm going to suggest that the horse bolted BEFORE the rider came off.


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

What’s the thoughts about the destruction of Coulstons statue in Bristol today? It was ripped down & chucked in the harbour 

I’m conflicted, it’s wanton vandalism but.....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not sure where I’m pointing fingers at anyone ?

The subject is about the current protests and to combat the racism and persecution that black people on a daily basis in all walks of life. Hence why I was confused by your post - it wasn’t finger pointing , it was asking for clarification.
		
Click to expand...

You wont takle racism or social depravation unless you look at the causes and understand why they exist, only then can you work on policy to improve things.  People looking at the Slave Trade and the American Civil War are solving nothing, pointing a finger and calling someone racist achieves nothing but anger and resentment.  Education, equal opportunities, understanding the reasons for deprivation and looking for solutions is what matters.

Of course racism exists and in many forms, it is also very prevalent between Blacks and Asians, between tribes and casts, it's really bad in eastern Europe, its everywhere but I would honestly say this country has one of the most accepting and fair societies. We should always do what we can to improve the lives of the most disadvantaged whatever their ethnicity.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			What’s the thoughts about the destruction of Coulstons statue in Bristol today? It was ripped down & chucked in the harbour 

I’m conflicted, it’s wanton vandalism but.....
		
Click to expand...

Colston's Statue. He was a merchant that was involved in the slave trade and donated large amounts of money to Bristol. Yes, he was involved in tne slave trade. Yes, destroying his statue is mindless and achieves nothing.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Colston's Statue. He was a merchant that was involved in the slave trade and donated large amounts of money to Bristol. Yes, he was involved in tne slave trade. Yes, destroying his statue is mindless and achieves nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Yet it is this that will be plastered all over the papers tomorrow, leaving the real issues aside, therefore a pointless exercise.

It will alienate many , and these unfortunately are the people that need to change


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Senseless


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269672606229303297
As was this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269542927937798145


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			What’s the thoughts about the destruction of Coulstons statue in Bristol today? It was ripped down & chucked in the harbour 

I’m conflicted, it’s wanton vandalism but.....
		
Click to expand...

No conflict here.  If there's good reason to remove it because of what it represents and how we now view that then do it through the proper channels.  The mob taking matters into their own hands is totally out of order.  The original protest was about a police officer breaking the law.  So to demonstrate their opposition to this police officer, they break the law...   

The police officer is being prosecuted, so should they.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Over the past couple of days and have seen the same stats over and over again and looking at pure raw numbers it’s not great at all but it’s misses a couple of things

1. The percentage of the population that are black and indeed killed by the police

2. How many of those that were killed in the act of a serious crime or those that were killed because of the colour of their skin
People committing serious crime then I would expect and hope the reaction is the same

But how many white people are killed just because they are white

*Would a white man have been killed in the same situation as George Floyd ?*

Click to expand...

I know it doesn’t suit your argument but yes.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/?outputType=amp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

It doesn't help that US police more closely resemble a paramilitary organisation than a police force these days, buy if everyone has a closet full of AR15's it's a tricky line to walk.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			My first thought was to be surprised a statue to such a man was still in place in 2020. I thought it wasn't great the crowd took the law into their own hands to remove it but can understand the frustration, particularly when attempts to remove it legally had been denied. I was pleased the police took the view it would do more harm than good to intervene. And now I'm wondering how many similar men have statues honouring them around the country and how these can be legally removed.
		
Click to expand...

I
Who makes that judgement any mob  that wants to ?


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			No conflict here.  If there's good reason to remove it because of what it represents and how we now view that then do it through the proper channels.  The mob taking matters into their own hands is totally out of order.  The original protest was about a police officer breaking the law.  So to demonstrate their opposition to this police officer, they break the law...  

The police officer is being prosecuted, so should they.
		
Click to expand...

 I meant conflicted in terms of; yes it’s a criminal act, but I can 100% see how any BLM protester may consider this a legitimate target.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Senseless


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269672606229303297
As was this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269542927937798145

Click to expand...


Spongebob59, I'm sorry but you can't use anything Guido Fawkes posts as it is obviously untrue & biased.  Kellfire will be along shortly to tell you off.

Oh, no he won't...


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

I wonder how many people that are happy to see statues of people that did great things in a past where racism was unfortunately somewhat normal would feel to find their grandparents and great grandparents headstones trashed...


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			My first thought was to be surprised a statue to such a man was still in place in 2020. I thought it wasn't great the crowd took the law into their own hands to remove it but can understand the frustration, particularly when attempts to remove it legally had been denied.* I was pleased the police took the view it would do more harm than good to intervene.* And now I'm wondering how many similar men have statues honouring them around the country and how these can be legally removed.
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was the job of the courts to make that judgement, not the police.  That's the start of a slippery slope.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			I meant conflicted in terms of; yes it’s a criminal act, but I can 100% see how any BLM protester may consider this a legitimate target.
		
Click to expand...

The statue was in Colston Street, just down from the Colston Hall, just short distance away is Colston Girls School one of three schools along with a number of alms houses he had built, the Universary up the road still has bursaries allocated from his funding, how much of that should we destroy. He died 300 years ago.  We should learn from history, you cant change it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			I meant conflicted in terms of; yes it’s a criminal act, but I can 100% see how any BLM protester may consider this a legitimate target.
		
Click to expand...

I get that, but in order to show their opposition to being treated like second class citizens, they behave like, well, second class citizens, thus reinforcing the stereotypes of which they complain.  You really couldn't make it up.  

The attack on Lincoln's statue is so stupid it's mind blowing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			What’s the thoughts about the destruction of Coulstons statue in Bristol today? It was ripped down & chucked in the harbour 

I’m conflicted, it’s wanton vandalism but.....
		
Click to expand...

I watched the Frankie Boyle program recently where he toured Scotland and he did a very interesting bit on I think it was Glasgow. Where it was pointed out that some streets were named after essentially slave owners who had then put their money into developing the city.

As a white middle class middle aged male who has suffered absolutely no prejudice in my life, it may come across as wonton vandalism.  But I think have a decent amount of empathy and can understand why, in the current climate, people who are understandably very upset and see this statue as a symbol of a lot of what is wrong with the current situation, take matters into their own hands. As they have been waiting long enough for 'the establishment' for want of a better word, to instigate change. Many great things have come out of protests, I expect this is just another one.


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## IanM (Jun 7, 2020)

valid protest, daft timing.  Shame the violent loons appeared. 

My cousin’s daughter marched in Bristol today, I wonder how long before She or one of her family ends up ill?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I get that, but in order to show their opposition to being treated like second class citizens, *they behave like, well, second class citizens, *thus reinforcing the stereotypes of which they complain.  You really couldn't make it up. 

The attack on Lincoln's statue is so stupid it's mind blowing.
		
Click to expand...

Three have been many movements against things like racial segregation and gay rights that have resulted in change where I am sure a lot of people at the time would have claimed the protesters are behaving like 'second class citizens'. But it turned out they were in the right.


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## IanM (Jun 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Kellfire will be along shortly to tell you off.

Oh, no he won't... 

Click to expand...

ooh what happened...blocked him a few days ago when he had a meltdown.  Maybe he was out chucking bikes at police horses today


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I watched the Frankie Boyle program recently where he toured Scotland and he did a very interesting bit on I think it was Glasgow. Where it was pointed out that some streets were named after essentially slave owners who had then put their money into developing the city.

As a white middle class middle aged male who has suffered absolutely no prejudice in my life it may come across as wonton vandalism.  But I think have a decent amount of empathy and can understand why, in the current climate, people who are understandably very upset and see this statue as a symbol of a lot of what is wrong with the current situation, take matters into their own hands. As they have been waiting long enough for 'the establishment' for want of a better word, to instigate change. Many great things have come out of protests, I expect this is just another one.
		
Click to expand...

Should they burn books?


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			ooh what happened...blocked him a few days ago when he had a meltdown.  Maybe he was out chucking bikes at police horses today
		
Click to expand...

The guy is a “something I want to say
 but can’t as I don’t want a fraggering”


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			ooh what happened...blocked him a few days ago when he had a meltdown.  Maybe he was out chucking bikes at police horses today
		
Click to expand...

Post #44 in this thread will explain.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

It’s good that the statue has been removed but not in the way that it has happened 

The people of Bristol have campaigned and requested that the statue be removed , they believed it was a stain on their history , whilst his name and money is on other the statue seemed a celebration of him which they wanted removed. It’s the same sort of principle where they have removed or were planning on removing the statue of Robert E Lee. 

Good that it’s gone but poor in the way it happened


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I get that, but in order to show their opposition to being treated like second class citizens, they behave like, well, second class citizens, thus reinforcing the stereotypes of which they complain.  You really couldn't make it up. 

The attack on Lincoln's statue is so stupid it's mind blowing.
		
Click to expand...

Don’t necessarily agree or endorse smashing stuff up, but I can see how it could be viewed as a celebration of oppression, Same with Churchill. Not so much Lincoln


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's not a question of changing history, more being honest with ourselves about it so we can learn from it. I wonder if the pupil's at Colston's school know how he made the money to found it? Personally I think monuments like this should be in museums where the unvarnished story can be told.
		
Click to expand...

Of course the pupils know who he was and how he made his money,  I think they are intelligent enough to understand that you cannot judge peoples past lives based on current principles. How far would you take this and how many monuments have to be destroyed because the person had different standards than we hold today, how about Julius Ceaser, Alfred the great, Nelson and so on.  Shall we burn the books where they are mentioned.  You can only view history through the context of it's time. To do otherwise is stupid and ignorant.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			What’s the thoughts about the destruction of Coulstons statue in Bristol today? It was ripped down & chucked in the harbour 

I’m conflicted, it’s wanton vandalism but.....
		
Click to expand...

Good question. I think it should have been removed a while ago. I'm uncomfortable with what was done, mob rule is not correct, but i can see how it could happen right now.

I'm not one for re-writing history and removing all examples of our past but from what I've read this should have been an obvious one to remove. 

One for the liverpool lads. Liverpool was another port involved in slavery, are there equivalent statues there or have they been removed? If so, are they now in the slavery museum or in a basement somewhere out of sight?


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course the pupils know who he was and how he made his money,  I think they are intelligent enough to understand that you cannot judge peoples past lives based on current principles. How far would you take this and how many monuments have to be destroyed because the person had different standards than we hold today, how about Julius Ceaser, Alfred the great, Nelson and so on.  Shall we burn the books where they are mentioned.  You can only view history through the context of it's time. To do otherwise is stupid and ignorant.
		
Click to expand...

I believe at the time there was an understanding that slavery was wrong. Otherwise why a whole
Scientific movement to legitimise. Re books, there are some books that quite rightly aren’t in general circulation. A ‘study of’ isn’t a an endorsement


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s good that the statue has been removed but not in the way that it has happened

The people of Bristol have campaigned and requested that the statue be removed , they believed it was a stain on their history , whilst his name and money is on other the statue seemed a celebration of him which they wanted removed. It’s the same sort of principle where they have removed or were planning on removing the statue of Robert E Lee.

Good that it’s gone but poor in the way it happened
		
Click to expand...

Where did you get that the people of Bristol have campaigned and requested the statue be removed. I grew up in Bristol and never heard such things, the only people I know of have been a minority of students and recently.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			ooh what happened...blocked him a few days ago when he had a meltdown.  Maybe he was out chucking bikes at police horses today
		
Click to expand...

he is very very naughty boy who idolises other naughty boys and girls and is happy when they do naughty things


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			I believe at the time there was an understanding that slavery was wrong. Otherwise why a whole
Scientific movement to legitimise. Re books, there are some books that quite rightly aren’t in general circulation. A ‘study of’ isn’t a an endorsement
		
Click to expand...

But its history. Whatever it was has past and we have moved on.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Apparently nearly half the number, that have died from CV19 in the U.K., died in transport on Colston’s slave ships.
Approx 19,000 out of 84,000.

I have absolutely no issue with a statue to him being destroyed.


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## User20205 (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But its history. Whatever it was has past and we have moved on.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, begs the question though, what else could be a ‘legitimate’ target


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Clearly what I suggested doesn't involve destroying anything nor trying to remove references to anyone. Just telling the full story, the truth.
		
Click to expand...

But you asked a question about the pupils of Colstons schools. I gave you an answer so where's the full story, the truth then?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2020)

therod said:



			Agreed, begs the question though, what else could be a ‘legitimate’ target
		
Click to expand...

The pyramids in Egypt? Lots of slaves died during the construction of those.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That was intended as a rhetorical question. Having already been taken to task by one expert today I hesitate to ask how you know so much about what the pupils of a particular school have and haven't been told about their benefactor and whether they were always aware of it. (*Now fully expecting to hear you went there as a lad)*

Regardless, if I visited Bristol I would see the street names, the school and the statue and read the sign and think what a great man he was. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
		
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🤣🤣


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2020)

Anthony Joshua really hasn’t done himself any favors after shoee we Int himself to be a racist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did you get that the people of Bristol have campaigned and requested the statue be removed. I grew up in Bristol and never heard such things, the only people I know of have been a minority of students and recently.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you are a bit out of touch about the city then

Family live in and around the city 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-bristol-45825768

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42404825

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-39718149

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42202801


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That was intended as a rhetorical question. Having already been taken to task by one expert today I hesitate to ask how you know so much about what the pupils of a particular school have and haven't been told about their benefactor and whether they were always aware of it. (Now fully expecting to hear you went there as a lad)

Regardless, if I visited Bristol I would see the street names, the school and the statue and read the sign and think what a great man he was. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
		
Click to expand...

I have already said I was born and grew up in Bristol, I went to school in Bristol,  I started work in Bristol, please dont patronise me on what Bristolians know about their city. Colston started four schools in Bristol.  Cheap dig Kaz.

Colston funded slave ships, theres no getting away from that or what a horrible trade it was and his complicity. What I am saying is it's stupid for people to think they can change the past by defiling a statue, has history been changed by it.  Bristol council were going to put a placard on the statue to tell people of his complicity in the slave trade, that sounds a better plan to me.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe you are a bit out of touch about the city then

Family live in and around the city

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-bristol-45825768

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42404825

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-39718149

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42202801

Click to expand...

How do those links detract from what I posted, they refer to an MP and a junior school. The vast majority of people in Bristol have not has issues with Colston's statue. They know the history and the context of it.

What monuments are there in liverpool that have a link to the slave trade and are they being removed?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Peaceful my a£#e


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269708569903063046


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## Jimaroid (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The statue was in Colston Street, just down from the Colston Hall, just short distance away is Colston Girls School one of three schools along with a number of alms houses he had built, the Universary up the road still has bursaries allocated from his funding, how much of that should we destroy. He died 300 years ago.  We should learn from history, you cant change it.
		
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We can’t change the events of the past but we can change how we adulate those that were involved. The aggrandisement and adoration of slavers and slavery is surely a wrong we can put right in the present. This isn't about changing history, this is about recognising it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2020)

Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“*
As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.

And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. 

The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. 

Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.

Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			We can’t change the events of the past but we can change how we adulate those that were involved. The aggrandisement and adoration of slavers and slavery is surely a wrong we can put right in the present. This isn't about changing history, this is about recognising it.
		
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I dont believe anyone is disagreeing with that. I think people are educated to understand the wrongs of slavery, does anyone actually defend it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“
*As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.*

*And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. *

*The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. *

*Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.*

*Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”
		
Click to expand...

There is so much wrong with that statement.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“*
As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.

And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. 

The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. 

Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.

Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”
		
Click to expand...

Well he’ll certainly be a lot busier soon!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“
*As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.*

*And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. *

*The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. *

*Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.*

*Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”
		
Click to expand...

What annoys me about posts like these is that it assumes that people are only complaining about the current protests and have ignored the previous events. These things are not exclusive.

Dominic Cummings was wrong to do what he did and should have been sacked. 
The people that had VE Day celebrations and didn't socially distance were morons.
The people that packed on to the beaches and didn't socially distance were morons.
The protesters that are ignoring social distancing are morons.

And "social distanced as best they could" is a complete nonsense. The advice hasn't been to socially distance "as best we can". Not all of the protesters wore masks and those that did weren't (in the majority) wearing masks that would prevent them from catching the virus. They would have reduced the chances of them passing on the virus but not of catching it.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“
*As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.*

*And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. *

*The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. *

*Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.*

*Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”
		
Click to expand...

it’s nit your statement, but there are so many things wrong there.  
plenty have criticised those flocking to beaches, having parties or single politicians going on a drive.

i know a fair few nhs workers and there are plenty who are angry at anyone flouting the rules.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

I’m sure a few job applications and the odd bar of soap thrown by the police would’ve dispersed them


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 7, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			it’s nit your statement, but there are so many things wrong there. 
plenty have criticised those flocking to beaches, having parties or single politicians going on a drive.

i know a fair few nhs workers and there are plenty who are angry at anyone flouting the rules.
		
Click to expand...

I was complaining about all these as they happened. Got told there wasn't a problem in Bournemouth and that there was a news bias to make it seem worse than it was. Plenty where I work are far from happy at everything they've seen, more so as we got to zero Covid patients in ICU on Friday. All of these plus the closeness at so many protests across the company is not going to help and especially in areas where the R rate is already close 1 or above. I have no issues with people wanting to protest but *in my opinion* there is a greater public need to fight the spread of Covid. The issues these people are standing up for will still be there and there will be a time and place when these should be brought to the fore again, debated and dealt with publicy


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## DanFST (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm ** livid.

These aren't protestors, they are scum.

The protestors need to distance themselves and rat them out sharpish.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm ** livid.

These aren't protestors, they are scum.

The protestors need to distance themselves and rat them out sharpish.
		
Click to expand...

Several videos on Twitter tonight showing "protesters" throwing objects at the police. Very noticeable in all of them was that there were a number of people telling them to stop and to back away from the police lines. Hopefully video evidence will show those responsible and they will be dealt with appropriately.


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## TheDiablo (Jun 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			I’m sure a few job applications and the odd bar of soap thrown by the police would’ve dispersed them
		
Click to expand...

Let's all laugh at black people being poor and dirty!! Omg so so funny. Lol.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have to confess I had never heard of Colston before today. Interesting to learn that he was also a Tory MP.
		
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Ummm yes, he died 300 years ago
Shall we try and deselect him?


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have to confess I had never heard of Colston before today. Interesting to learn that he was also a Tory MP.
		
Click to expand...

I think we can discount that as any relevance on current day politics as he was a Tory MP that died 300 years ago, but that Tory party isn't the same as one in power now, considering the actual Conservative Party (Tories) wasn't formed until 1834, a good 60 years after Colston died.

I'm not defending the bloke but come on if your going to make it political or at least mention the politics, do so accurately.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good question. I think it should have been removed a while ago. I'm uncomfortable with what was done, mob rule is not correct, but i can see how it could happen right now.

I'm not one for re-writing history and removing all examples of our past but from what I've read this should have been an obvious one to remove.

One for the liverpool lads. Liverpool was another port involved in slavery, are there equivalent statues there or have they been removed? If so, are they now in the slavery museum or in a basement somewhere out of sight?
		
Click to expand...

Dont drag us into it, we already have enough on our plate. #scouselivesmatter


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## Stuart_C (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			Dont drag us into it, we already have enough on our plate. #scouselivesmatter
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

June 6th. Does that day resonate with anyone, 75 years on and someone protesting against lives mattering tries to set fire to the flags on the cenotaph.


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just trying not to erase history. 

I'm clearly "at it" mentioning that but there was nothing inaccurate in the post so I cannot accept that particular accusation. Kudos to you on your knowledge of political history, had hoped that one might run a little longer 

Click to expand...

Maybe not inaccurate but very ambiguous in stating he was a Tory which alludes to links to current government of which there isn't.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			June 6th. Does that day resonate with anyone, 75 years on and someone protesting against lives mattering tries to set fire to the flags on the cenotaph.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it means an awful lot to many of us on here, but there are people who, in spite of what many people did 75 years ago, feel there lives still don’t matter, Just because of the colour of their skin.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Let's all laugh at black people being poor and dirty!! Omg so so funny. Lol.
		
Click to expand...

knowing James and having seen the occasional comment from him in the past. 

It was simply a dig at those that join the protests simply as they've have nothing better to do.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			knowing James and having seen the occasional comment from him in the past.

It was simply a dig at those that join the protests simply as they've have nothing better to do.
		
Click to expand...

Should be more careful with his wording then!


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## DanFST (Jun 7, 2020)

Cooled off a little.

Protests should no longer happen, I'm fed up with subjective policing. The law is objective, enforce it equally for all.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Yes it means an awful lot to many of us on here, but there are people who, in spite of what many people did 75 years ago, feel there lives still don’t matter, Just because of the colour of their skin.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, that makes it ok then does it. Did it not register in his mind why that cenotaph is there and how offensive his actions would be to other people.  Many of them that gave their Iives had the same skin colour as him.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Should be more careful with his wording then!
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe people should take a look at themselves if him being racist was their first thought......


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, that makes it ok then does it.
		
Click to expand...

Not to them, no!
That’s the very point. The Cenotaph means little to people who’s lives are seemingly worth even less than a stone monument.


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## fundy (Jun 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Read this on Facebook from a NHS Doctor

“
*As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism.*

*And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. *

*The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. *

*Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same.*

*Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now.*”
		
Click to expand...

If he thinks there was no outrage re the beach or VE day parties send him a link to my local facebook groups!

as for 4x more likely to die, not sure the stats back that up either, but hey you rant away with unjustified stats


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Let's all laugh at black people being poor and dirty!! Omg so so funny. Lol.
		
Click to expand...

Where did he say that 🙄


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Or maybe people should take a look at themselves if him being racist was their first thought......
		
Click to expand...

He wasn’t being racist, but his wording was ill conceived & too easy to miss interpret.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Let's all laugh at black people being poor and dirty!! Omg so so funny. Lol.
		
Click to expand...

Why bring colour into it as not everyone protesting was black! White people can be poor and dirty too

It was a light hearted commented that I’ve used towards the extinction rebellion and remain protests


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			He wasn’t being racist, but his wording was ill conceived & too easy to miss interpret.
		
Click to expand...




JamesR said:



			Should be more careful with his wording then!
		
Click to expand...

Is that in case snowflakes like you jump to the wrong conclusion and get offended?


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			Is that in case snowflakes like you jump to the wrong conclusion and get offended?
		
Click to expand...

Like I said, you weren’t being racist...but used clumsy language. Perhaps, the sort of language which gets the back up of those actually being subjugated.

By the way, when people use the word snowflake they come across as complete and utter tools,
That being the polite way of wording it.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Disgusting


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269727143174508544


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Not to them, no!
That’s the very point. The Cenotaph means little to people who’s lives are seemingly worth even less than a stone monument.
		
Click to expand...

Where do you get that from, if you really believe that then you have some serious perceptions on reality.  Where is this coming from, who are all these people who think black peoples lives dont matter, I dont know people who think that way, do you.   Of course their lives matter.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Disgusting


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269727143174508544

Click to expand...

That's what I was referring to.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Where do you get that from, if you really believe that then you have some serious perceptions on reality.  Where is this coming from, who are all these people who think black peoples lives dont matter, I dont know people who think that way, do you.   Of course their lives matter.
		
Click to expand...

Someone’s going to have to tell all those people marching worldwide that there is no issue. Socketrocket says there is no issue with racism anywhere, because apparently he knows no racists folk!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2020)

Beyond racism.now, just thugs.
Now how would the French have dealt with this ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269721520638738432


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Like I said, you weren’t being racist...but used clumsy language. Perhaps, the sort of language which gets the back up of those actually being subjugated.

By the way, when people use the word snowflake they come across as complete and utter tools,
That being the polite way of wording it.
		
Click to expand...

By the way, I don’t give a toss what you think.
That being the polite way of wording it!


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			By the way, I don’t give a toss what you think.
That being the polite way of wording it!
		
Click to expand...

Fine by me 👍


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Someone’s going to have to tell all those people marching worldwide that there is no issue. Socketrocket says there is no issue with racism anywhere, because apparently he knows no racists folk!
		
Click to expand...

You suggested black peoples lives were seen as being worth less than a stone cenotaph.  I said that I dont know anyone who thinks like that or that their lives dont matter. I asked you to justify your comment and explain who all these people are. Rather than explain yourself you have decided sarcasm sounds better.


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2020)

How many times have racist events been denounced on here, compared to damage to statues (both here and abroad)?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Disgusting


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269727143174508544

Click to expand...

Is your twitter feed just a relentless barrage of increasingly right wing commentators? Or do you just treat us to the edited highlights?


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## TheDiablo (Jun 8, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			knowing James and having seen the occasional comment from him in the past.

It was simply a dig at those that join the protests simply as they've have nothing better to do.
		
Click to expand...

Ah great, you know him and he has a first name!  Cant be an awful joke with racist undertones then. Glad you can clear up what he meant for him.

Having seen his later posts where he had the option of going 'hands up, badly worded attempt at humour' or double down and shout louder and having chose the latter, I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to rush to his defence in future. 

Anyway I'm out on this, broke my rule not to read through divisive threads

On the actual topic at hand, anyone caught or proven to have acted unlawfully should face prosecution. All they've done is undermine the cause and given the media the opportunity to appeal to populism by diverting the news story instead of holding up a mirror to society and challenging why the protests are happening.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

Thought the Mayor of Bristol spoke well on the weekend's events...


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			On the actual topic at hand, anyone caught or proven to have acted unlawfully should face prosecution. All they've done is undermine the cause and given the media the opportunity to appeal to populism by diverting the news story instead of holding up a mirror to society and challenging why the protests are happening.
		
Click to expand...


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Ah great, you know him and he has a first name!  Cant be an awful joke with racist undertones then. Glad you can clear up what he meant for him.

Having seen his later posts where he had the option of going 'hands up, badly worded attempt at humour' or double down and shout louder and having chose the latter, I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to rush to his defence in future.

Anyway I'm out on this, broke my rule not to read through divisive threads

On the actual topic at hand, anyone caught or proven to have acted unlawfully should face prosecution. All they've done is undermine the cause and given the media the opportunity to appeal to populism by diverting the news story instead of holding up a mirror to society and challenging why the protests are happening.
		
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You'll not likely reply but i agree fully re your second point.

Re the first. I'd know his name if I'd not played golf with him as I'd seen it mentioned on here. As I'd also seen him make mention of his thoughts on "the great unwashed". In his later posts he said nothing else that suggested racism. He may think little of faux protesters. But he's said nothing derogatory to race. But feel free to enjoy the moral high ground you've taken for yourself.


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## Dando (Jun 8, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Ah great, you know him and he has a first name!  Cant be an awful joke with racist undertones then. Glad you can clear up what he meant for him.

Having seen his later posts where he had the option of going 'hands up, badly worded attempt at humour' or double down and shout louder and having chose the latter, I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to rush to his defence in future. 

Anyway I'm out on this, broke my rule not to read through divisive threads

On the actual topic at hand, anyone caught or proven to have acted unlawfully should face prosecution. All they've done is undermine the cause and given the media the opportunity to appeal to populism by diverting the news story instead of holding up a mirror to society and challenging why the protests are happening.
		
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The only racist undertones are the ones you’ve decided are in that post.

In case you didn’t notice there were white people rioting as well and my post didn’t mention colour!  

🤡


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

I support the cause - but in the current environment I feel the marches were inappropriate.

We desperately need the pandemic to be under control for health, NHS and economic reasons.  There are very many people whose lives are on hold at the moment and heading into serious financial and personal difficulties - if not already there - because of the virtual closure of the service economy, food, hospitality, entertainment and leisure sectors.

And just so we all realise what living on Universal Credit and an element of furlough in a zero hours contact means - for this month my son has got just over £800 (UC + furlough) to cover ALL of his outgoings and to live.  And his rent is £535 / month. He has about £275 for the month for all other bills, gas and electricity, and food. Try thinking about how you'd cope having to live on that - let's not think that those on UC and furlough are having it easy.  He is desperate to get back to work but there is absolutely no way that that is going to happen whilst the infection rate measure remains anywhere close to 1.  So in my eyes the BLM demonstrators are, in the current environment,  irresponsible, and frankly, no more than deluded and selfish.

I don't even know what they are trying to achieve by demonstrating day after day.  I just don't.

Just to compound things, by demonstrating repeatedly the marches give greater opportunity to those who simply wish to perpetrate violence and create chaos to do so.  And of course we find today the pulling down of the statue (in other circumstances I might I'm not have been that bothered that it was pulled down - it should have been moved years ago) and violence against the police taking the headlines for the press - and giving the government opportunity to avoid talking about what they are trying to do in respect of the pandemic - what they need to be doing - and doing better.  And not a lot about BLM and George Floyd.

You wanna change things? - get rid of this rotten government as soon as we have the opportunity.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I support the cause - but in the current environment I feel the marches were inappropriate.

We desperately need the pandemic to be under control for health, NHS and economic reasons.  There are very many people whose lives are on hold at the moment and heading into serious financial and personal circumstances - if not already there - because of the virtual closure of the service economy, food, hospitality, entertainment and leisure sectors.

And just so we all realise what living on Universal Credit and an element of furlough in a zero hours contact means - for this month my son has got just over £800 (UC + furlough) to cover ALL of his outgoings and to live.  And his rent is £535 / month. He has about £275 for the month for all other bills, gas and electricity, and food. *T*ry thinking about how you'd cope having to live on that* -* let's not think that those on UC and furlough are having it easy.  He is desperate to get back to work but there is absolutely no way that that is going to happen whilst the infection rate measure remains anywhere close to 1.  So in my eyes the BLM demonstrators are, in the current environment,  irresponsible, and frankly, no more than deluded and selfish.

*I don't even know what they are trying to achieve by demonstrating day after day.  I just don't.*

Just to compound things, by demonstrating repeatedly the marches give greater opportunity to those who simply wish to perpetrate violence and create chaos to do so.  And of course we find today the pulling down of the statue (in other circumstances I might I'm not have been that bothered that it was pulled down - it should have been moved years ago) and violence against the police taking the headlines for the press - and giving the government opportunity to avoid talking about what they are trying to do in respect of the pandemic - what they need to be doing - and doing better.  And not a lot about BLM and George Floyd.
		
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To possibly change the embedded racial inequality in society today, especially in countries increasingly being run by right wing popularist leaders?


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ummm yes, he died 300 years ago
Shall we try and deselect him?
		
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I think more than that happened - chucked in the river and (sympolically) drowned?
I'm not normally in favour of removing such memorials (as, to me, it actually hides history) but happy to make an exception in this case. It doesn't alter the fact that Bristol became a major city because of its association with the slave trade and slave traders!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I support the cause - but in the current environment I feel the marches were inappropriate.

We desperately need the pandemic to be under control for health, NHS and economic reasons.  There are very many people whose lives are on hold at the moment and heading into serious financial and personal difficulties - if not already there - because of the virtual closure of the service economy, food, hospitality, entertainment and leisure sectors.

And just so we all realise what living on Universal Credit and an element of furlough in a zero hours contact means - for this month my son has got just over £800 (UC + furlough) to cover ALL of his outgoings and to live.  And his rent is £535 / month. He has about £275 for the month for all other bills, gas and electricity, and food. Try thinking about how you'd cope having to live on that - let's not think that those on UC and furlough are having it easy.  He is desperate to get back to work but there is absolutely no way that that is going to happen whilst the infection rate measure remains anywhere close to 1.  So in my eyes the BLM demonstrators are, in the current environment,  irresponsible, and frankly, no more than deluded and selfish.

I don't even know what they are trying to achieve by demonstrating day after day.  I just don't.

Just to compound things, by demonstrating repeatedly the marches give greater opportunity to those who simply wish to perpetrate violence and create chaos to do so.  And of course we find today the pulling down of the statue (in other circumstances I might I'm not have been that bothered that it was pulled down - it should have been moved years ago) and violence against the police taking the headlines for the press - and giving the government opportunity to avoid talking about what they are trying to do in respect of the pandemic - what they need to be doing - and doing better.  And not a lot about BLM and George Floyd.

You wanna change things? - get rid of this rotten government as soon as we have the opportunity.
		
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There is so many things wrong with that post it’s hard to know where to start , even more so when you are a man of the faith 

1. The fact you have tried to bring the current government into it - racism and persecution has been around through every single government going , “getting rid of the government” won’t change anything- so you are using it to post your own personal message 

2. Do you seriously not know what they are demonstrating about ? Really ? I expected you to at least be able to understand the message they are trying to pass around - 

3. Deluded and Selfish ?! Really - trying to find a way to educate and remove as much persecution and racist behaviour is deluded and selfish ?! 

4. I’m not sure why you are ranting about Universal Credit and your sons situation - that’s nothing to do with this and that’s your issue to deal with that to constantly broadcast across the forum. 

we all know your issues with the government, be honest with yourself and see that when you post about the virus there is always the bias towards pointing fingers at the government and your rant against the protest once again is biased towards the current government.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I think more than that happened - chucked in the river and (sympolically) drowned?
I'm not normally in favour of removing such memorials (as, to me, it actually hides history) but happy to make an exception in this case. It doesn't alter the fact that Bristol became a major city because of its association with the slave trade and slave traders!
		
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Bristol was a major City before the slave trade. John Cabot sailed in the Mathew from Bristol in the 15th centuary funded by Bristol merchants  and founded mainland America, the City was already a thriving centre for trade.
If the statue was to be removed that should be the job of the City council, not mob rule.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I support the cause - but in the current environment I feel the marches were inappropriate.

We desperately need the pandemic to be under control for health, NHS and economic reasons.  There are very many people whose lives are on hold at the moment and heading into serious financial and personal difficulties - if not already there - because of the virtual closure of the service economy, food, hospitality, entertainment and leisure sectors.

And just so we all realise what living on Universal Credit and an element of furlough in a zero hours contact means - for this month my son has got just over £800 (UC + furlough) to cover ALL of his outgoings and to live.  And his rent is £535 / month. He has about £275 for the month for all other bills, gas and electricity, and food. Try thinking about how you'd cope having to live on that - let's not think that those on UC and furlough are having it easy.  He is desperate to get back to work but there is absolutely no way that that is going to happen whilst the infection rate measure remains anywhere close to 1.  So in my eyes the BLM demonstrators are, in the current environment,  irresponsible, and frankly, no more than deluded and selfish.

I don't even know what they are trying to achieve by demonstrating day after day.  I just don't.

Just to compound things, by demonstrating repeatedly the marches give greater opportunity to those who simply wish to perpetrate violence and create chaos to do so.  And of course we find today the pulling down of the statue (in other circumstances I might I'm not have been that bothered that it was pulled down - it should have been moved years ago) and violence against the police taking the headlines for the press - and giving the government opportunity to avoid talking about what they are trying to do in respect of the pandemic - what they need to be doing - and doing better.  And not a lot about BLM and George Floyd.

You wanna change things? - get rid of this rotten government as soon as we have the opportunity.
		
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Once again the biggest paragraph is on your family problems.  Just because you have a son that doesn't seem to be able to cope with the every day problems that millions of other people have to deal with doesn't make it racist. 

Which government, there have been many governments of the year who could be accused of not properly addressing the situation but you point your finger at a government you don't like because they don't meet all your sons financial demands.  PS get his girlfriend to help as she allegedly lives with him.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I think more than that happened - chucked in the river and (sympolically) drowned?
I'm not normally in favour of removing such memorials (as, to me, it actually hides history) but happy to make an exception in this case. It doesn't alter the fact that Bristol became a major city because of its association with the slave trade and slave traders!
		
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A lot of city’s in Britain became rich because of the slave trade, back when having slaves was acceptable. 
But in 1833 Britain used 40% of the Tresurey’s income to buy the freedom of all the slaves in the Empire. Britain borrowed so much money to enact the    Slave Abolition Act that the sum was only finally repaid in 2015! 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I think more than that happened - chucked in the river and (sympolically) drowned?
I'm not normally in favour of removing such memorials (as, to me, it actually hides history) but happy to make an exception in this case. It doesn't alter the fact that Bristol became a major city because of its association with the slave trade and slave traders!
		
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Always fascinating to hear the views of those who come from country's who have and still are abusing and mistreating the indigenous people.  We all have problems whether it be inequality or racism. Should the statues of those responsible for making your country great be removed as they achieved it to the detriment of the locals.

Question not a dig or a critism of your post.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Beyond racism.now, just thugs.
Now how would the French have dealt with this ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269721520638738432

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I’m guessing you are only going to post the  negative incidents 

It appears that the demonstrations around the country were largely peaceful 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269712116447051780
It also has started off those model citizens Nigel Farage , Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269758528815759360
The countless threads out there are showing exactly why people are marching all over the world.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bristol was a major City before the slave trade. John Cabot sailed in the Mathew from Bristol in the 15th centuary funded by Bristol merchants  and founded mainland America, the City was already a thriving centre for trade.
If the statue was to be removed that should be the job of the City council, not mob rule.
		
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Well it didn't actually become a city until mid 16th century, though it was a major port. But agreed, I should probably have stated 'source of major wealth'. Slave trading from Bristol actually started before Cabot/Caboto/Chabotto made his journey!


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## IanM (Jun 8, 2020)

Maybe it is time to stop talking about 200+ years ago and really focus on folk who break the law right now.  Most of us will have witnessed racist behaviour, heard racist remarks and what did you actually do about it? 

Change that.


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

A personal view.

I have been to school, college, University and employed and being employed by various people from ethnic backgrounds. I have taught, have many friends and also had personal relationships with people who were not Caucasians, I'm a godfather to a foreign person.

I would never knowing discriminate against anyone. 

However I worry that as white person there is now the assumption I am racist but don't know it. Moreover it now seems to be acceptable to make racist anti-white statements with impunity.

There are areas of the UK I would not visit. I have worked with companies that discriminate against white people and only employ members of their own ethnicity. Other employers dare not employ/promote a white person if a minority candidate is in the list

There is a danger that the desire is not for equality but positive discrimination. 

We need an open balanced debate about equality.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			...
But in 1833 Britain used 40% of the Tresurey’s income to buy the *freedom of all the slaves in the Empire*....
		
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Notably with the exception of those of the notorious East India Company (and the less beneficial Ceylon and St Helena) that provide immense wealth for Britain!


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## IanM (Jun 8, 2020)

If you can't use the extreme behaviour of one group as representative of the whole, why can you of the other?

Note how I've worded this.  I can see examples of both sides of this in the thread.   Therein lies the challenge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			To possibly change the embedded racial inequality in society today, especially in countries increasingly being run by right wing popularist leaders?
		
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Yes - of course 100% get that.  

But that simply isn't going to be achieved by daily protests that give 'cover' for those who simply wish to perpetrate acts of vandalism and violence against the police.  That is why I asked - not what a BLM protest is supposed to achieve or highlight - but what does *daily *protesting achieve.   It is not as if it will bring about the downfall of the current government, a feckless bunch who will have by now recognised the strength of feeling in this matter across society and not simply within the BAME community.  And they must know that it will not go away. 

I simply feel that continuing protests will achieve nothing more than they have achieved so far, indeed continuing with the protests could be counterproductive; could easily cause an upsurge in Covid-19 cases; and such an upsurge could damage further the lives and life-chances of those whose lives are already very difficult - lives that are bound by constraints that most of us have absolutely no concept of.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Once again the biggest paragraph is on your family problems.  Just because you have a son that doesn't seem to be able to cope with the every day problems that millions of other people have to deal with doesn't make it racist.

Which government, there have been many governments of the year who could be accused of not properly addressing the situation but you point your finger at a government you don't like because they don't meet all your sons financial demands.  PS get his girlfriend to help as she allegedly lives with him.
		
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I am simply highlighting the difficult situation that I know many will be in - a situation that will only be exacerbated by an upsurge in coronavirus infections and Covid-19 illness and death that might well come about through continuing protests and large gatherings of this or of any sort.

I am NOT pointing the finger at the government.  I am NOT suggesting the government is not paying enough through UC.  It is what it is - and it is not a lot.  Let no-one be in any doubt - UC is not generous...as much as some would like to have us believe - the workshy and feckless having a great time slumming it on UC.  And that is why my son is desperate to get back to work.  But that will not - and cannot - happen until the infection rate is significantly lower than what it currently.

And THAT is why I am against further protests and find what is going on disappointing and upsetting.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Notably with the exception of those of the notorious East India Company (and the less beneficial Ceylon and St Helena) that provide immense wealth for Britain!
		
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Thank you Kuensberg and those exceptions were eliminated by 1843.👍


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## Grant85 (Jun 8, 2020)

Completely support the protests and while I don't feel the violence (and especially the looting) helps their cause, ultimately actions like this are often necessary to effect change. 

Has anything protesters have done been as bad as a policeman kneeling on a handcuffed mans neck? 
Or as bad as officers pushing an elderly man to the ground? 

The police are there to police the people, but when they demonstrate they are incapable of doing that, it is inevitable that levels of lawlessness will continue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is so many things wrong with that post it’s hard to know where to start , even more so when you are a man of the faith

1. The fact you have tried to bring the current government into it - racism and persecution has been around through every single government going , “getting rid of the government” won’t change anything- so you are using it to post your own personal message

2. Do you seriously not know what they are demonstrating about ? Really ? I expected you to at least be able to understand the message they are trying to pass around -

3. Deluded and Selfish ?! Really - trying to find a way to educate and remove as much persecution and racist behaviour is deluded and selfish ?!

4. I’m not sure why you are ranting about Universal Credit and your sons situation - that’s nothing to do with this and that’s your issue to deal with that to constantly broadcast across the forum.

we all know your issues with the government, be honest with yourself and see that when you post about the virus there is always the bias towards pointing fingers at the government and your rant against the protest once again is biased towards the current government.
		
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1.  I have not brought the government into the debate about BLM and the protests other than if the protesters really want a significant change then I suggest that the current incumbents might not be the ones to trust to initiate changes that are required.  If nothing happens as a result of the BLM protests then the protesters know what to do at the ballot box next time around.

2.   I will repeat.  Of COURSE I know what they are demonstrating about - what I said was that I do not understand what they expect *daily *protests to achieve.  But they provide a cover for violence that will detract fro the message and be counter-productive and that is NOT what the vast majority of protesters want.   And they unfortunately also result in a significant infection risk - with knock-on impact on individuals and their employment - and hence their well-being.  So what now do the protesters expect the government to actually_ do_ now that the point has been very strongly and obviously made?  Now that I just do not know.

3.  The protesters have made their point very strongly and clearly.  I think we should all - certainly all who care to listen - now have a very good idea of the issues, if we did not before.  BTW - I lived in Bristol for 12 yrs so know about Colston and the slave trade - and from Glasgow I am fully aware of those whose names are enshrined in many street names in the city centre - esp the 'Merchant' City area.  The delusion I refer to is that if by doing daily protests they think they can get change that really matters _now - _then I fear they are misguided.   For the change that will bring about ending of the discrimination we need changes in the mindset of many in our society - and the protest will hopefully have initiated that change.  Selfish? - do they really not realise that by continuing their protests, without telling us what the short term objectives of the protests are, they simply increase the risk of increased infection; pressures on the NHS; more unnecessary deaths - and continued shut down of business in many areas.  And many, many people are suffering hardships and these hardships will continue and worsen for as long as infection rate remains high and many leisure, hospitality and entertainment businesses and have to remain closed.

What does that mean in practice? It means such as my son and his partner, and many hundreds of thousands of others, living off less than £50 a week for food.  That's what unemployment (temporary or otherwise) and depending upon UC means.  Now that's what it is.  And that's why he and 100s of '000s of others are desperate to get back to work.

4. Everything that is happening at the moment is interconnected.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Completely support the protests and while I don't feel the violence (and especially the looting) helps their cause, ultimately actions like this are often necessary to effect change.

*Has anything protesters have done been as bad as a policeman kneeling on a handcuffed mans neck?*
Or as bad as officers pushing an elderly man to the ground?

The police are there to police the people, but when they demonstrate they are incapable of doing that, it is inevitable that levels of lawlessness will continue.
		
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As a direct consequence no. As far as I’m aware they haven’t killed someone. 

That doesn’t in anyway give them a free pass to commit as many crimes as they like (as long as not murder) and get a free pass. 
the consequences of the looting could easily result in non direct deaths In both the short and long term. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if some shopkeepers in the poorest areas have little to no insurance. The results could be but not limited to, suicide (short term), hunger, or a total relapse back into the stereotypical life that is often painted for the poorest in America (crime) for which the stats showed death is a common outcome (long term) for those that live that lifestyle.

I honestly would have supported some sort of activism against police property. Not violence to officers. but destroying private property simply sets things further back.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			Maybe it is time to stop talking about 200+ years ago and really focus on folk who break the law right now.  Most of us will have witnessed racist behaviour, heard racist remarks and what did you actually do about it? 

Change that.
		
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I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...
		
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Perhaps that may have to do more with the nature of the protest rather than what you were protesting about.  Most normal civilised people fully understand why people feel they have to make a common issue about racism.  Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.

"If there is evil in the world it is not because bad men act but because good men don't" I thought the quote appropriate-don't ask, I don't know.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.
		
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Which is exactly what started the protests around the world......


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps that may have to do more with the nature of the protest rather than what you were protesting about.  Most normal civilised people fully understand why people feel they have to make a common issue about racism.  Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.

"If there is evil in the world it is not because bad men act but because good men don't" I thought the quote appropriate-don't ask, I don't know.
		
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Sadly, from previous observation, I suspect all that will come from the establishment is more empty promises... And, we'll be back at some future point discussing the actions of the frustrated 😞...


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## IanM (Jun 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...
		
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I was thinking the same - I marched with the ANL in the late 70s... that floundered because extremists attached themselves to it and trouble ensued.  But, I do  think the world has moved on massively since then, but a hardcore remains.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			I was thinking the same - I marched with the ANL in the late 70s... that floundered because extremists attached themselves to it and trouble ensued.  But, I do  think the world has moved on massively since then, but a hardcore remains.
		
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Unfortunately, the focus has a way of 'finding' the extremes... Deflecting the honest aims/hopes of the majority...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

I heard a young man on the radio saying 'Its not good enough to say you're not a racist, you should be actively anti racist'
I have thought about what he said and I find it difficult to understand exactly what he is expecting of people. According to him I should be active in being anti racist, does that mean I should be marching and protesting in the street otherwise I am racist.  

All the protests and 'taking the knee' is pointless unless it actively achieves your aims or sets in place the processes that achieve them.  So what are these people who are protesting actually asking for, do they want to change peoples views on racism or do they want to see some radical change in society that make black lives matter more than they do now, and, what are these changes.

Would it not be better if someone or some group laid out clear objectives that they felt would create a world where 'Black Lives Mattered' more than they do now because I'm struggling to understand what's being asked of me as a white person.  It seems to me that in this country and most other democracies people have equal rights and oppertunities. Do these demonstrators want to change the way people think and if so how do they propose this should happen, you cant simply tell people 'stop thinking this or that way' you can only have laws that prohibit people acting in a manner that discriminates against race, age, disability etc, only education can help to change mindsets. 

All these demonstrations are a complete waste of time if they cant put out a message more than soundbites


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

Well it appears now that Francis Drake is on the "black" list. I suspect they will need more people than were in Bristol if they fancy their chances in Plymouth. Interesting times.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well it appears now that Francis Drake is on the "black" list. I suspect they will need more people than were in Bristol if they fancy their chances in Plymouth. Interesting times.
		
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Will his drum be going over the wall on the Hoe.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Will his drum be going over the wall on the Hoe.
		
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Judging by the number who turned out to protect the war memorial in Plymouth nothing will be going over any wall other than the odd visitor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I heard a young man on the radio saying 'Its not good enough to say you're not a racist, you should be actively anti racist'
I have thought about what he said and I find it difficult to understand exactly what he is expecting of people. According to him I should be active in being anti racist, does that mean I should be marching and protesting in the street otherwise I am racist.

All the protests and 'taking the knee' is pointless unless it actively achieves your aims or sets in place the processes that achieve them.  So what are these people who are protesting actually asking for, do they want to change peoples views on racism or do they want to see some radical change in society that make black lives matter more than they do now, and, what are these changes.

Would it not be better if someone or some group laid out clear objectives that they felt would create a world where 'Black Lives Mattered' more than they do now because I'm struggling to understand what's being asked of me as a white person.  It seems to me that in this country and most other democracies people have equal rights and oppertunities. Do these demonstrators want to change the way people think and if so how do they propose this should happen, you cant simply tell people 'stop thinking this or that way' you can only have laws that prohibit people acting in a manner that discriminates against race, age, disability etc, only education can help to change mindsets.

All these demonstrations are a complete waste of time if they cant put out a message more than soundbites
		
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And this where I am on them continuing - or not.  What is it BLM protesters really want to happen *now *and in the short term? What do they want government to say that they will do *now*? Because we have a very critical _*immediate*_ short term crisis with a terrible risk being run by the demonstrations continuing.

As much as I am supportive and have absolutely no issues with BLM demonstrations - I would simply ask protesters to consider the balance of BLM objectives that can be achieved *now *and the coronavirus risk being run.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

Following up on SocketRockets post. US protests want defunding of the police, which is probably the most insane thing I've ever heard.

There are systematic problems that Black communities face here, but there is no short term solution to this. And no one will admit it, but the communities need to change also.

If we all just respected each other and were accountable for our actions the world would be a better place. Tribalism is for the stupid and close-minded, it achieves nothing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Following up on SocketRockets post. US protests want defunding of the police, which is probably the most insane thing I've ever heard.

There are systematic problems that Black communities face here, but there is no short term solution to this. And no one will admit it, but the communities need to change also.

If we all just respected each other and were accountable for our actions the world would be a better place. Tribalism is for the stupid and close-minded, it achieves nothing.
		
Click to expand...

From what I understand - the issues with the US police are much more fundamental, and are more about the nature of the policing coming out of the origins of the police, police structures, remit and governance, with racism in much of the US police being one - perhaps most important - manifestation of that - most especially in the south where the police were set up with a primary objective being to protect the interests of slave owners.  

https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ 

_In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves. _


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			A personal view.

I have been to school, college, University and employed and being employed by various people from ethnic backgrounds. I have taught, have many friends and also had personal relationships with people who were not Caucasians, I'm a godfather to a foreign person.

I would never knowing discriminate against anyone.

*However I worry that as white person there is now the assumption I am racist but don't know it.* Moreover it now seems to be acceptable to make racist anti-white statements with impunity.

There are areas of the UK I would not visit. I have worked with companies that discriminate against white people and only employ members of their own ethnicity. Other employers dare not employ/promote a white person if a minority candidate is in the list

There is a danger that the desire is not for equality but positive discrimination.

We need an open balanced debate about equality.
		
Click to expand...

No there is not, however everyone should occasionally kind of audit where they are with regards to the current societal norms and progress that is made. It's just that when people in the current climate start bleating on about white people getting discriminated against, can you not see it looks a bit 'silly'? 

Yes I am sure it is the case that white people have been discriminated against. But on balance I think we have got off relatively well over the last few hundred years.  So perhaps first address the biggest issues with the inequalities black people suffer in society. And then if white people are being targeted and racially profiled then we can start a white lives matter march.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Thought the Mayor of Bristol spoke well on the weekend's events...
		
Click to expand...

Really. He has been the Mayor of Bristol since May 2016, if he had problems with Colston's statue why didnt he have it removed to the city museum already. I notice he is saying he will have it recovered and moved to the museum now at much greater cost


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			No there is not, however everyone should occasionally kind of audit where they are with regards to the current societal norms and progress that is made. It's just that when people in the current climate start bleating on about white people getting discriminated against, can you not see it looks a bit 'silly'?

Yes I am sure it is the case that white people have been discriminated against. But on balance I think we have got off relatively well over the last few hundred years.  So perhaps first address the biggest issues with the inequalities black people suffer in society. And then if white people are being targeted and racially profiled then we can start a white lives matter march.
		
Click to expand...

I refer you to my previous post and ask you to explain in non emotional language exactly what are these inequalities black people suffer in our society and what we should be doing to eradicate them.  I am getting tired of being labelled as the cause of inequalities people dont seem to be able to clarify.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really. He has been the Mayor of Bristol since May 2016, if he had problems with Colston's statue why didnt he have it removed to the city museum already. I notice he is saying he will have it recovered and moved to the museum now at much greater cost
		
Click to expand...

Yes, really... Wouldn't know if it was in his remit to make such a decision as removing Colston's statue... Decision has now been taken out of his hands...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Yes, really... Wouldn't know if it was in his remit to make such a decision as removing Colston's statue... Decision has now been taken out of his hands...
		
Click to expand...

Hes the Executive Mayor of Bristol, if hes not the person to have the statue removed then who is,  do you suggest the decision of mob rule to do it is correct . He seems capable to be making the decision to have it recovered from the dock and moved to the city museum


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I refer you to my previous post and ask you to explain in non emotional language exactly what are these inequalities black people suffer in our society and what we should be doing to eradicate them.  I am getting tired of being labelled as the cause of inequalities people dont seem to be able to clarify.
		
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Ghetto's - living conditions/ education etc. 
Stop and search figures suggest black people are searched much more than white people.  There's two quick ones. 

Any who says YOU are the cause is clearly an idiot. (unless you're a racist). And if you genuinely can't see that, you're a fool yourself. Just remember theres years of pain and anger behind these messages, you can give some the benefit of the doubt and cut them some slack.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I refer you to my previous post and ask you to explain in non emotional language exactly what are these inequalities black people suffer in our society and what we should be doing to eradicate them.  I am getting tired of being labelled as the cause of inequalities people dont seem to be able to clarify.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t believe anyone has labelled you anything 

Do you believe that black people are treated the same as white people ? 

Forget about these “opportunities” you are talking , it’s not about what opportunities are out there available to everyone 

It’s how people treat someone based on their skin colour 

Why do black footballers or sports stats still suffer from racial abuse from supporters ?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hes the Executive Mayor of Bristol, if hes not the person to have the statue removed then who is,  do you suggest the decision of mob rule to do it is correct . He seems capable to be making the decision to have it recovered from the dock and moved to the city museum
		
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Hopefully decision making for a city the size of Bristol fall in the remit of more than one person... The chap provided his overview of the weekend's events not just focusing on the downing of the statue...


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From what I understand - the issues with the US police are much more fundamental, and are more about the nature of the policing coming out of the origins of the police, police structures, remit and governance, with racism in much of the US police being one - perhaps most important - manifestation of that - most especially in the south where the police were set up with a primary objective being to protect the interests of slave owners.

https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/

_In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves. _

Click to expand...

IMO racism isn't the problem with US police, poor training, ignorance  and the American culture has some impact, figures show more black police officers kill members of the black population than white officers. I suspect US police operate in a constant state of fear due to the stupid gun laws and the crazy way the police are organised.

Was the officer who shot Justin Damond a racist or a poor police officer.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-45206266

Now that’s racism.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Ghetto's - living conditions/ education etc.
Stop and search figures suggest black people are searched much more than white people.  There's two quick ones.

Any who says YOU are the cause is clearly an idiot. (unless you're a racist). And if you genuinely can't see that, you're a fool yourself. Just remember theres years of pain and anger behind these messages, you can give some the benefit of the doubt and cut them some slack.
		
Click to expand...

Where are the Black Ghettos in the UK, what are the living conditions that are particularly different and regarding education I fail to see where Black people are disadvantaged in the state system, many black people achieve great things through the education system.  Stop and search has reduced over recent years and OK should not be used in a discriminatory manner although it cannot be disputed that there are many black gangs in inner cities that are guilty of carrying weapons and drugs and will be targeted by law enforcement, I dont believe the Police are institutionally racial.

I give everyone the benifit of doubt and have tried my very best to treat people equally.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

People seem to forget (elephant in the room time), stop and search was manly about protecting the black community in London as black on black killings were and still are high.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*I dont believe the Police are institutionally racial.*

Click to expand...

Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

another example of institutional racism in this country - 

Black and Asian men are more likely to be jailed for drug dealing offences in England and Wales than white men, a study of 14,000 people suggests.
The Sentencing Council looked at the penalties received by defendants aged 26-50 for possession with intent to supply from April 2012 to March 2015.
Its analysis also found men were more likely to be jailed than women.
The council said it was seeking views on whether its sentencing guidelines could lead to discrimination.

Its study found that for possession with intent to supply a class B drug, 37% of white offenders would be expected to receive an immediate custodial sentence, compared with 46% of Asian, 44% of black and 46% of Chinese and other ethnicities.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?
		
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Could that be because more blacks are carrying weapons than whites?


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Where are the Black Ghettos in the UK, what are the living conditions that are particularly different and regarding education I fail to see where Black people are disadvantaged in the state system, many black people achieve great things through the education system.  Stop and search has reduced over recent years and OK should not be used in a discriminatory manner although it cannot be disputed that there are many black gangs in inner cities that are guilty of carrying weapons and drugs and will be targeted by law enforcement, I dont believe the Police are institutionally racial.

I give everyone the benifit of doubt and have tried my very best to treat people equally.
		
Click to expand...


Large parts of Southwark and Tower hamlets (where I live) Tottenham, Enfield, Edmonton,  etc... Can you honestly not see the basic disadvantages? Do you think a kid growing up in one of these areas has as much chance as succeeding as a child from Surrey?

S+S is institutionally racist. Yes black on black crime is too high, but to use a persons skin colour as a basis for a search is inherently racist. I know a fair few  people that do class A drugs, I haven't seen a single one get more than a slap on the wrists. Would that happen if they were black? I'm not convinced.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could that be because more blacks are carrying weapons than whites?
		
Click to expand...

It could well be, but until you S+S equal numbers of both skin colours you will never know...


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?
		
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Just perhaps they commit more crime per capita and the local cops have the intelligence to help target their resources. Let's remember that there are a huge number of black and ethnic coppers.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It could well be, but until you S+S equal numbers of both skin colours you will never know...
		
Click to expand...

Targeted policing due to the stats unfortunately, perhaps they should stop S&S and see what happens. Difficulty decision for some poor bugger to make.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

But the stats could be lopsided if you aren't taking the same sample size. 

Agreed, tough decision. (FWIW I was mugged and stabbed by a group that happened to be black last year). But I think it's really key to stay objective in this current climate.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?
		
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Stop and search has been reduced by two thirds since 2011.  In London they have fallen from 800,000 in 2008/2009 to 130,000 in 2017/2018.  It is more likely than ever to result in an arrest though, 9%  resulted in arrest in 2008/9 but 17% in 2017/2018. A third of stop and searches result in positive outcomes so it looks as if they are not really abused. 

Black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched  than white people, I dont know where you get twenty five more times from.


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			But the stats could be lopsided if you aren't taking the same sample size.

Agreed, tough decision. (FWIW I was mugged and stabbed by a group that happened to be black last year). But I think it's really key to stay objective in this current climate.
		
Click to expand...

Hope you have recovered with no lasting affected. You will have, inadvertently added to the stats


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?
		
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Have you got a link to that?


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## Billysboots (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?
		
Click to expand...

Please don’t get me started.

Having been a cop for nearly 29 years I can say, hand on heart, I have never seen any racism. Not towards a member of the public, nor any serving officer.

I have asked any number of BAME friends and colleagues whether they have witnessed or been victim of any racism. Same answer. Not one has said they have.

Obviously I can only speak as I find, but the force in which I serve does not seem to have an issue with racism, which kind of throws the accusation of institutional racism under a number 49 bus.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop and search has been reduced by two thirds since 2011.  In London they have fallen from 800,000 in 2008/2009 to 130,000 in 2017/2018.  It is more likely than ever to result in an arrest though, 9%  resulted in arrest in 2008/9 but 17% in 2017/2018. A third of stop and searches result in positive outcomes so it looks as if they are not really abused.

Black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched  than white people, *I dont know where you get twenty five more times from.*

Click to expand...



https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.


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## Billysboots (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.
		
Click to expand...

But if a S60 is authorised in an area where the population is primarily BAME, then it must follow that the majority searched will be BAME.

It’s hardly representative, is it?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.
		
Click to expand...

Yet Stop.Watch has significantly different figures;

http://www.stop-watch.org/your-area/area/metropolitan

So who do we believe?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Please don’t get me started.

Having been a cop for nearly 29 years I can say, hand on heart, I have never seen any racism. Not towards a member of the public, nor any serving officer.

I have asked any number of BAME friends and colleagues whether they have witnessed or been victim of any racism. Same answer. Not one has said they have.

Obviously I can only speak as I find, but the force in which I serve does not seem to have an issue with racism, which kind of throws the accusation of institutional racism under a number 49 bus.
		
Click to expand...

what about this former officer?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...lly-racist-racism-black-officer-a9001176.html

"In my decade of service, I saw entrenched prejudice, open racism and discrimination, but also the police’s lackadaisical response to race equality. In my 11 years on the force, I saw no real intention to stamp out racism and change the culture for the better, but only to suppress it. This is why public statements like those of Dick baffle me, because they are untrue and help no one."

Pretty damning stuff.

There have been a number of very high profile cases near me where BAME officers have been forced out of their jobs and have successfully sued the local force for racist behaviour.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Large parts of Southwark and Tower hamlets (where I live) Tottenham, Enfield, Edmonton,  etc... Can you honestly not see the basic disadvantages? Do you think a kid growing up in one of these areas has as much chance as succeeding as a child from Surrey?

S+S is institutionally racist. Yes black on black crime is too high, but to use a persons skin colour as a basis for a search is inherently racist. I know a fair few  people that do class A drugs, I haven't seen a single one get more than a slap on the wrists. Would that happen if they were black? I'm not convinced.
		
Click to expand...

Are there only black people living in those areas and if the housing is sub standard then that's something to be put on the lists of greviences, are these areas really ghettos.
Kids in those areas get the same opportunities for education, more children from all backgrounds get the chance to go to university if they want it.  I'm not trying to compare kids in tower hamlets with a privileged kid going to public school but the average white kid and many of those live in similar circumstances.   If people want social change then get organised in the political spheres where they can encourage change, make their wishes clear, are they protesting about Police brutality in the USA or racial injustice for black people in the UK.    

All this will blow over the same way as previous protests have unless some clarity of objectives are laid down so they are obvious and open to reasonable scrutiny.  Taking a knee and discarding statues will do nothing of any use.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yet Stop.Watch has significantly different figures;

http://www.stop-watch.org/your-area/area/metropolitan

So who do we believe?
		
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The government's own figures (for which I provided a link) state that 4 whites per 1000 were subject to S&S, while the figure for blacks was 38/1000.


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## Billysboots (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			what about this former officer?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...lly-racist-racism-black-officer-a9001176.html

"In my decade of service, I saw entrenched prejudice, open racism and discrimination, but also the police’s lackadaisical response to race equality. In my 11 years on the force, I saw no real intention to stamp out racism and change the culture for the better, but only to suppress it. This is why public statements like those of Dick baffle me, because they are untrue and help no one."

Pretty damning stuff.

There have been a number of very high profile cases near me where BAME officers have been forced out of their jobs and have successfully sued the local force for racist behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

As I say, I speak as I find. There will always be others with contrary views.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.
		
Click to expand...

Heres where I got my numbers:

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common


https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The government's own figures (for which I provided a link) state that 4 whites per 1000 were subject to S&S, while the figure for blacks was 38/1000.
		
Click to expand...

And when you take the Met figures out of that, which have a rate of 5 to 1, that means the rest of the country has to have a rate of about 20 to 1 to balance the facts so something doesn't seem to add up somewhere.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Heres where I got my numbers:

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common
View attachment 31085

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common
View attachment 31084

Click to expand...

So, putting aside the fact your data is 4 years out of date, why are you saying its 4:1 when your chart says 6.5:1 for the latest available year?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So, putting aside the fact your data is 4 years out of date, why are you saying its 4:1 when your chart says 6.5:1 for the latest available year?
		
Click to expand...

Well it's not 40 to one is it. I must have used the Met numbers.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Well it's not 40 to one is it. I must have used the Met numbers.
		
Click to expand...

I gave you 2 sources, both published in the last year, one said 40/1, the other (official govt figures) said 9.5/1.

You gave one source (4 years old) which said 6.5/1 and claimed the figure was 4/1.

You've got a worrying agenda here.


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## hovis (Jun 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Targeted policing due to the stats unfortunately, perhaps they should stop S&S and see what happens. Difficulty decision for some poor bugger to make.
		
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At the end of the 90`s They did stop the stop and search of black people in Birmingham due to local pressure.  Stabbings of black on black went through the roof and the public went Nutts and demanded the police did something!!!


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## Grant85 (Jun 9, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			As a direct consequence no. As far as I’m aware they haven’t killed someone.

That doesn’t in anyway give them a free pass to commit as many crimes as they like (as long as not murder) and get a free pass.
the consequences of the looting could easily result in non direct deaths In both the short and long term.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some shopkeepers in the poorest areas have little to no insurance. The results could be but not limited to, suicide (short term), hunger, or a total relapse back into the stereotypical life that is often painted for the poorest in America (crime) for which the stats showed death is a common outcome (long term) for those that live that lifestyle.

I honestly would have supported some sort of activism against police property. Not violence to officers. but destroying private property simply sets things further back.
		
Click to expand...

So who polices them? 

The guys who watched while their colleague strangled a black man to death? 
The division who threatened to resign when 2 colleagues were charged with assault following pushing an elderly gentleman to the ground? 
The dozens of other 'police' who sprayed pepper spray into the faces of peaceful protesters? 
The cops who fired rubber bullets at a news crew? 

The problem is that the police have to be beyond reproach, and when they so clearly aren't, there are no such thing as a 'crime' any more.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			So who polices them?

The guys who watched while their colleague strangled a black man to death?
The division who threatened to resign when 2 colleagues were charged with assault following pushing an elderly gentleman to the ground?
The dozens of other 'police' who sprayed pepper spray into the faces of peaceful protesters?
The cops who fired rubber bullets at a news crew?

The problem is that the police have to be beyond reproach, and when they so clearly aren't, there are no such thing as a 'crime' any more.
		
Click to expand...

im not defending the police that were guilty in the slightest. But the point I replied to was simply that allowing the rioters (not protesters) t- do whatever solves absolutely nothing.

Police found guilty need to be dealt with. As do the scum burning, stealing and assaulting the public.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It could well be, but until you S+S equal numbers of both skin colours you will never know...
		
Click to expand...

That would be a waste of resources, The majority of violent crime in London appears to be young black kids under 21 killing young black kids under 21. And you get told that this is because they are in poverty because they are discriminated against. Is it really only black people in poverty? because last time I walked through parts of Tower Hamlets I see many Asian people also in poverty and dont get me started about the supposed white privileged people living in places like Grays, Tilbury and Purfleet!


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## Grant85 (Jun 9, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			im not defending the police that were guilty in the slightest. But the point I replied to was simply that allowing the rioters (not protesters) t- do whatever solves absolutely nothing.

Police found guilty need to be dealt with. As do the scum burning, stealing and assaulting the public.
		
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Other issue is Police are only being challenged / arrested for things there is video evidence of. As far as I'm aware no police officer has challenged or reported another officer for breaking the law until a video has been circulated.


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## hovis (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Other issue is Police are only being challenged / arrested for things there is video evidence of. As far as I'm aware no police officer has challenged or reported another officer for breaking the law until a video has been circulated.
		
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Well I can't speak for America but in this country I know of mutilple sacking that have happened to police that never made it to local news.  Ranging from smacking a woman's ass to telling a fellow wpc to shut up and make him a bacon sandwich!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Other issue is Police are only being challenged / arrested for things there is video evidence of. As far as I'm aware no police officer has challenged or reported another officer for breaking the law until a video has been circulated.
		
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How many taking part in the protests have reported others they saw looting damaging property and using violence.


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## Grant85 (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How many taking part in the protests have reported others they saw looting damaging property and using violence.
		
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It's the police's job to police, not the public's job.

It is completely correct that the Police should be held to a higher standard, and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.


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## Billysboots (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			It's the police's job to police, not the public's job.

It is completely correct that the Police should be held to a higher standard, and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.
		
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Absolute rubbish. Sorry.

Have you never heard the phrase “The police are the public, and the public are the police”? It is a virtual impossibility to police, especially in modern times, and reach successful conclusions, in the absence of public support and cooperation. One has only to look at the very obvious examples of the failure of witnesses to cooperate with an investigation to see how difficult it is to bring successful prosecutions without their engagement. The public have a pivotal role to play in policing.

And to suggest that looting is a direct result of a failure in the standard of policing is simplistic drivel.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			It's the police's job to police, not the public's job.

It is completely correct that the Police should be held to a higher standard, and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.
		
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Oh I see, it's the Police to blame for the looting and rioting, that's a ridiculous comment, no one has the right to loot and riot, they can make peacefull protest. Also, the public have a responsibilty for law and order and reporting crime, just like the Police.


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## hovis (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			It's the police's job to police, not the public's job.

It is completely correct that the Police should be held to a higher standard, and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.
		
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So next time you're getting a beating in the street I'll walk past and ignore it as its a job for the police?
I'm not sure how to comment about the looting being a result of the police short fall.  I'm actually troubled by that comment.    I'm sure you wouldn't hold that opinion if it was your family business.   
You haven't got a new 60 inch lcd TV by any chance have you?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			So who polices them?

The guys who watched while their colleague strangled a black man to death?
		
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Well, all 4 have been sacked (prior to a trial) & charged with either murder or aiding and abetting murder, so it sounds like they are being policed by the police department that used to employ them.  It appears that one of those charged with aiding & abetting the murder was a rookie whose TO was Derek Chauvin; I wonder how many of those criticising from behind a keyboard would have the testicular fortitude to stand up to, or ignore orders from, their TO 4 days into the real world?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52969205



Grant85 said:



			The division who threatened to resign when 2 colleagues were charged with assault following pushing an elderly gentleman to the ground?
		
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Police them for what?  They resigned their position in the riot squad in support of their colleagues, who have been charged with assault; what exactly do they need policing for?  They appear to have exercised lawful employment rights.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945190



Grant85 said:



			The problem is that the police have to be beyond reproach, and when they so clearly aren't, there are no such thing as a 'crime' any more.
		
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The police are members of the public who perform a role.  When they they overstep the bounds of their authority they are subject to the sanction of the same laws that they normally uphold.  To say there is no such thing as a crime anymore is utter tosh.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			It's the police's job to police, not the public's job.

It is completely correct that the Police should be held to a higher standard, *and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.*

Click to expand...

that is a joke of a comment with no basis. We heave one of the best police forces in the world where racism, bullying, corruption is extremely low. We should be supporting our police force absolutely against the mindlless thugs that have caused violence, property damage , theft and whatever else - and in the process diverting attention from the worthy cause of promoting equality - and on this subject, again, we are a beacon and surely one of the best counries in the world, where racism is abhorent to probably 99.9% of the population


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

So the recommendations are that we should boycott tea, (Yorkshire tea &Tetley) in support of BLM.

I am sure all the tea growers and pickers will understand and agree while they sit around jobless.

I also see no mention of the exploitation of black migrants from North Africa in the vast greenhouses of southern Spain who work under appalling conditions while protected by the EU workers rights


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2020)

For this to


drdel said:



			So the recommendations are that we should boycott tea, (Yorkshire tea &Tetley) in support of BLM.

I am sure all the tea growers and pickers will understand and agree while they sit around jobless.

I also see no mention of the exploitation of black migrants from North Africa in the vast greenhouses of southern Spain who work under appalling conditions while protected by the EU workers rights
		
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Don't mess with my cup of tea 

Great response from Yorkshire Tea to a woman who was having a go at them, 'please don't buy our tea again'.


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## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			So the recommendations are that we should boycott tea, (Yorkshire tea &Tetley) in support of BLM.
		
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The sad thing for me is, I'm no longer surprised when things like this hit the news.


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## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			So the recommendations are that we should boycott tea, (Yorkshire tea &Tetley) in support of BLM.
		
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Are you sure about this one? This isn’t what I’ve seen on social media, but I’m not the type who sits on Twitter (or this forum) all day..


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## GreiginFife (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			So the recommendations are that we should boycott tea, (Yorkshire tea &Tetley) in support of BLM.

I am sure all the tea growers and pickers will understand and agree while they sit around jobless.

I also see no mention of the exploitation of black migrants from North Africa in the vast greenhouses of southern Spain who work under appalling conditions while protected by the EU workers rights
		
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Think you've got this one a bit back for elbow. The legend goes thusly. 

Some "far right blogger" (read, nutbar) tweeted that she was happy Yorkshire Tea WASN'T supporting BLM. Then YT came on and shot her down (gloriously too). PG Tips waded in with solidaritea support for their Tyke brethren and also shot down the nutbar. Tetley, meanwhile were nowhere to be seen (so we _might_ consider them complicit in this far right conspiracy by their silence). 

TLDR, we should boycott Yorkshire Tea for *being IN *support of BLM. (If we are a bunch of racist crackers)


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Think you've got this one a bit back for elbow. The legend goes thusly.

Some "far right blogger" (read, nutbar) tweeted that she was happy Yorkshire Tea WASN'T supporting BLM. Then YT came on and shot her down (gloriously too). PG Tips waded in with solidaritea support for their Tyke brethren and also shot down the nutbar. Tetley, meanwhile were nowhere to be seen (so we _might_ consider them complicit in this far right conspiracy by their silence).

TLDR, we should boycott Yorkshire Tea for *being IN *support of BLM. (If we are a bunch of racist crackers)
		
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Sarcasm


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			That would be a waste of resources, The majority of violent crime in London appears to be young black kids under 21 killing young black kids under 21. And you get told that this is because they are in poverty because they are discriminated against. Is it really only black people in poverty? because last time I walked through parts of Tower Hamlets I see many Asian people also in poverty and dont get me started about the supposed white privileged people living in places like Grays, Tilbury and Purfleet!
		
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Interesting that your picture is that, then you post that ****.

S+S is for drugs, stolen property AND weapons. In my time in The City and Canary Wharf. I Have never seen a S+S take place, despite their being a huge amount of class A drugs. Why is that? There would be huge amount of arrests, and the drug cartels would loose billions. But no one cares about us rich white guys.


No one said it was only blacks in poverty. But its good when you walked around Tower Hamlets it was only those lighter brown people in poverty......


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## IanM (Jun 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			and the looting is a direct result of them falling far far short of that standard.
		
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...thank goodness for that, I thought it was lawless crims taking advantage of a situation in order to steal.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Interesting that your picture is that, then you post that ****.

S+S is for drugs, stolen property AND weapons. In my time in The City and Canary Wharf. I Have never seen a S+S take place, despite their being a huge amount of class A drugs. Why is that? There would be huge amount of arrests, and the drug cartels would loose billions. But no one cares about us rich white guys.


No one said it was only blacks in poverty. But its good when you walked around Tower Hamlets it was only those lighter brown people in poverty......
		
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Not sure why you have gone on the attack like that I just have a differing view?
The rich white guys you refer to are users but the police aren’t too interested in them it’s the supply side which can lead to organised crime and violence.
Anyway my point about poor Asians and whites was in response to your comment “There are systematic problems that Black communities face here” but they are the same problems that the Asian community faces but they are not rioting and trying to destroy their community.

Btw great place the Isle of Dogs, a mix of Black, White, Asian and Chinese all pretty much getting along.👍


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

We might note that there are a vast number of white people that are in poverty through no fault of their own.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			We might note that there are a vast number of white people that are in poverty through no fault of their own.
		
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I'm fairly sure many of the problems these communities face are due to the breakdown of the family unit and particularly Fathers that leave their children and fail to support them, this seems to be endemic in black communities. Is it no surprise that so many young black people turn to gangs and crime.  In saying this it's also a big problem with white families.   As a country we need to fully understand why these issues are happening and work to make these young peoples lives matter, whatever colour or race.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm fairly sure many of the problems these communities face are due to the breakdown of the family unit and particularly Fathers that leave their children and fail to support them, this seems to be endemic in black communities. Is it no surprise that so many young black people turn to gangs and crime.  In saying this it's also a big problem with white families.   As a country we need to fully understand why these issues are happening and work to make these young peoples lives matter, whatever colour or race.
		
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I'm sorry but there is so much wrong with that generalisation of any family unit that breaks down supposedly being the fault of absent fathers or fathers that don't provide thus creating poverty. It's one of those stats that is sadly easily and often skewed to show that the lack of father or child support is the issue.

I can use myself as an example 39 years old (so I guess that makes me middle aged white male) our family unit broke down because my ex liked to perform exercise on her back with other men, yet I have never missed a payment to my kids, always fought to see them and yet.... If you look at the stats where mothers get polled about child support and absent fathers im firmly in there as being a waste of space father that never sees his kids and never provides for them. Why is that? Because their mother often stops access and complains all over social media that I do nothing, provide nothing and am not interested in my kids, the silly cow has even said those things to my kids. What's her reason for doing this well I have my guesses and its nothing to do with lack of support or absent parenting. I even know of a fellow forummer that's been through similar, dads whether black, white, Asian or otherwise often get bad press and blame for lack of direction of children and whilst yes there are some arseholes out there, there are equally as many poor mothers doing nothing to bring the children up, support them or guide them and preventing contact of dad's with their kids but they don't get the bad press because 90% of the time they get custody just because they're female so the blame gets pushed unfairly back on the father even when they've done nothing wrong and just want to be involved..


I should also add in my case its not lack of provision by me to her, but her own ineptitude to budget and cut her cloth accordingly but only buys big brand names clothing, overly expensive holidays each, year etc yet never seems to have money to put food on table so i get asked for more every single month. This is happening everywhere in UK with broken families not just mine, people need to learn to live to their means stop getting things on tick then missing payments they can't afford thus creating further debt and poverty at home.

Sorry but that statement hit a nerve with me and its generalisation like that which need to stop and all parents to be accountable for actions of their children. Inequality of fathers rights also needs addressing to help prevent the idea that its absent fathers that are solely to blame in break down of family units.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not sure why you have gone on the attack like that I just have a differing view?
The rich white guys you refer to are users but the police aren’t too interested in them it’s the supply side which can lead to organised crime and violence.
Anyway my point about poor Asians and whites was in response to your comment “There are systematic problems that Black communities face here” but they are the same problems that the Asian community faces but *they are not rioting and trying to destroy their community.*

Btw great place the Isle of Dogs, a mix of Black, White, Asian and Chinese all pretty much getting along.👍
		
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That's a rather sweeping comment. The vast majority of protests have been peaceful. What percentage of blacks have taken part in a riot and/or are trying to destroy their community? 

Generalisations like that are a form of racism. I'm sure you don't think of yourself as a racist (at least I hope you don't), I respectfully suggest you rethink those kind of comments.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's a rather sweeping comment. The vast majority of protests have been peaceful. What percentage of blacks have taken part in a riot and/or are trying to destroy their community?

Generalisations like that are a form of racism. I'm sure you don't think of yourself as a racist (at least I hope you don't), I respectfully suggest you rethink those kind of comments.
		
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I bet your the sort of fella that see’s racism everywhere aren’t ya?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I bet your the sort of fella that see’s racism everywhere aren’t ya?
		
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No, but I did see it in your comment. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, instead you come out with a dismissive comment like that. Oh well, I guess we know where we stand now.


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2020)

I have no uni degree, I spent 16-22 caring for my mother alone. Then she died. Because of my skin colour, I had no problem working hard, applying myself and getting to where I am now aged 28. 

I have no doubt if I was black it would have been harder. If I was black i'd be most likely coming from a more impoverished household as there is no chance in hell my parents would have been able to get anywhere with the racism in the 80's. 

RE: police not caring about white bankers compared to black guys with knives. The jail sentence is longer for possessing class A than a knife. Society has decided that it's not as bad as carrying a knife, probably because it's normally wealthy people.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I have no uni degree, I spent 16-22 caring for my mother alone. Then she died. Because of my skin colour, I had no problem working hard, applying myself and getting to where I am now aged 28.

I have no doubt if I was black it would have been harder. If I was black i'd be most likely coming from a more impoverished household as there is no chance in hell my parents would have been able to get anywhere with the racism in the 80's.

RE: police not caring about white bankers compared to black guys with knives. The jail sentence is longer for possessing class A than a knife. *Society has decided that it's not as bad as carrying a knife, probably because it's normally wealthy people.*

Click to expand...

Whilst I acknowledge drugs are bad (have lost family members to it). People doing drugs themselves will cause damage to themselves (And their loved ones if it kills them). Carrying a knife is to end someone elses life. Being white has nothing do do with why people think carrying a deadly weapon is worse.


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Whilst I acknowledge drugs are bad (have lost family members to it). People doing drugs themselves will cause damage to themselves (And their loved ones if it kills them). Carrying a knife is to end someone elses life. Being white has nothing do do with why people think carrying a deadly weapon is worse.
		
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Didn't mention being white! 

The law as it stands shows that drugs are worse than a knife. Either change the sentencing or law, or enforce it to show that and then no one can have a problem. 

Funding drug dealers and organised crime millions a month is a problem, but that's a bigger debate that would bring this topic off track.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			No, but I did see it in your comment. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, instead you come out with a dismissive comment like that. Oh well, I guess we know where we stand now.
		
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you must be seeing things that i don't! What exactly did he say that was racist?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			No, but I did see it in your comment. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, instead you come out with a dismissive comment like that. Oh well, I guess we know where we stand now.
		
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You probably think that my Old fashioned view that “All lives matter” is racist.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			you must be seeing things that i don't! What exactly did he say that was racist?
		
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The bit that I highlighted. The implication that the black community (unlike the Asian community) are rioting and trying to destroy their community.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm sorry but there is so much wrong with that generalisation of any family unit that breaks down supposedly being the fault of absent fathers or fathers that don't provide thus creating poverty. It's one of those stats that is sadly easily and often skewed to show that the lack of father or child support is the issue.

I can use myself as an example 39 years old (so I guess that makes me middle aged white male) our family unit broke down because my ex liked to perform exercise on her back with other men, yet I have never missed a payment to my kids, always fought to see them and yet.... If you look at the stats where mothers get polled about child support and absent fathers im firmly in there as being a waste of space father that never sees his kids and never provides for them. Why is that? Because their mother often stops access and complains all over social media that I do nothing, provide nothing and am not interested in my kids, the silly cow has even said those things to my kids. What's her reason for doing this well I have my guesses and its nothing to do with lack of support or absent parenting. I even know of a fellow forummer that's been through similar, dads whether black, white, Asian or otherwise often get bad press and blame for lack of direction of children and whilst yes there are some arseholes out there, there are equally as many poor mothers doing nothing to bring the children up, support them or guide them and preventing contact of dad's with their kids but they don't get the bad press because 90% of the time they get custody just because they're female so the blame gets pushed unfairly back on the father even when they've done nothing wrong and just want to be involved..


I should also add in my case its not lack of provision by me to her, but her own ineptitude to budget and cut her cloth accordingly but only buys big brand names clothing, overly expensive holidays each, year etc yet never seems to have money to put food on table so i get asked for more every single month. This is happening everywhere in UK with broken families not just mine, people need to learn to live to their means stop getting things on tick then missing payments they can't afford thus creating further debt and poverty at home.

Sorry but that statement hit a nerve with me and its generalisation like that which need to stop and all parents to be accountable for actions of their children. Inequality of fathers rights also needs addressing to help prevent the idea that its absent fathers that are solely to blame in break down of family units.
		
Click to expand...

You really have taken my comments out of context. I fully appreciate that many family breakdowns are not the fault of the father and many fathers and mothers come to that are fully supportive of their children, from what you have posted previously I can see you love and support your children and am sorry you have taken this personally.

I was trying to look objectively as to why so many families in black and troubled societies have absent parents that dont support the children they have deserted and this leaves in many cases mothers bringing up children while trying to also put bread on the table, the children become angry with society and in many cases end up in gangs and turn to crime.

Again, please dont think I am criticising parents that through no fault of their own become separated from their families but are fully supporting them.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The bit that I highlighted. The implication that the black community (unlike the Asian community) are rioting and trying to destroy their community.
		
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he was quoting the previous poster and saying that the same issues are across communities - I think you are seeing things i am not


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You probably think that my Old fashioned view that “All lives matter” is racist.
		
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As I'm sure you know, that's a loaded slogan which is commonly used to criticise Black Lives Matter. It's been all over the media in the  last few days.

If you really didn't know that, and are using it innocently, then your use of it is not racist. But I suspect you know very well what you are doing when you use it.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You really have taken my comments out of context. I fully appreciate that many family breakdowns are not the fault of the father and many fathers and mothers come to that are fully supportive of their children, from what you have posted previously I can see you love and support your children and am sorry you have taken this personally.

I was trying to look objectively as to why so many families in black and troubled societies have absent parents that dont support the children they have deserted and this leaves in many cases mothers bringing up children while trying to also put bread on the table, the children become angry with society and in many cases end up in gangs and turn to crime.

Again, please dont think I am criticising parents that through no fault of their own become separated from their families but are fully supporting them.
		
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I don't believe i have taken it out of context, your comment was a generalisation of brown families at fault through lack of fathers. All I did was address the fact that was a huge generalisation that does nothing but give in an incorrect stereotype and user myself as example of why the generalisation you used was incorrect. 

I can fully appreciate your point and also understand why you may think that as that is how it is sadly shown in the media. Which is something that needs addressing as well.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I don't believe i have taken it out of context, your comment was a generalisation of brown families at fault through lack of fathers. All I did was address the fact that was a huge generalisation that does nothing but give in an incorrect stereotype and user myself as example of why the generalisation you used was incorrect.

I can fully appreciate your point and also understand why you may think that as that is how it is sadly shown in the media. Which is something that needs addressing as well.
		
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No, it wasnt about a lack of fathers, it was about a lack of fathers that dont support their children, theres a massive difference.

https://www.alliance4usefulevidence.org/absent_fathers/


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			As I'm sure you know, that's a loaded slogan which is commonly used to criticise Black Lives Matter. It's been all over the media in the  last few days.

If you really didn't know that, and are using it innocently, then your use of it is not racist. But I suspect you know very well what you are doing when you use it.
		
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I think you see racism in anything that is not saying what you want to hear


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it wasnt about a lack of fathers, it was about a lack of fathers that dont support their children, theres a massive difference.

https://www.alliance4usefulevidence.org/absent_fathers/

Click to expand...

Equally there are mothers that don't support or prevent fathers from providing time with their children. Its not as simple as posting one link as a cure all, its a 2 way street hence I said in my original reply there are arseholes that don't support but there are equally as many mothers preventing access and wasting the support they get, but that does not get as much air time as its doesn't fit the stats bubble of negativity that is easier to report. That's all my post was and having been through it and seen many others go through the same, its not as cut and dry as your link suggests.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



*Didn't mention being white!*

The law as it stands shows that drugs are worse than a knife. Either change the sentencing or law, or enforce it to show that and then no one can have a problem.

Funding drug dealers and organised crime millions a month is a problem, but that's a bigger debate that would bring this topic off track.
		
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That's my bad. Having very similar convo on fb comparing the typical wall street guy v the knife estates.

I agree with you re organised crime being a major problem. I was simply comparing the two crimes mentioned like for like.

Coke habit imo not as bad as carrying a blade.



DanFST said:



			Interesting that your picture is that, then you post that ****.

S+S is for drugs, stolen property AND weapons. In my time in The City and Canary Wharf. I Have never seen a S+S take place, despite their being a huge amount of class A drugs. Why is that? There would be huge amount of arrests, and the drug cartels would loose billions. *But no one cares about us rich white guys.*


No one said it was only blacks in poverty. But its good when you walked around Tower Hamlets it was only those lighter brown people in poverty......
		
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I tell a lie. I'd read it on your previous comments.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			he was quoting the previous poster and saying that the same issues are across communities - I think you are seeing things i am not
		
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Come off it - he was saying that unlike poor Asians, blacks were rioting and trying to destroy their community.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Equally there are mothers that don't support or prevent fathers from providing time with their children. Its not as simple as posting one link as a cure all, its a 2 way street hence I said in my original reply there are arseholes that don't support but there are equally as many mothers preventing access and wasting the support they get, but that does not get as much air time as its doesn't fit the stats bubble of negativity that is easier to report. That's all my post was and having been through it and seen many others go through the same, its not as cut and dry as your link suggests.
		
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My comments were as a consequence of trying to understand why so many young black people felt their lives were not mattering and why so many black children are raised in poverty.  I'm genuinely sorry if you think it meant anything else. In ,y previous post I did include mothers but ots not as prevalent.  There is a stark difference to Asian families who have a very low rate of absent non supporting parents and who tend to be high achievers.  If we cannot discuss these matters objectively then we wont be able to find solutions and that's what we need to be doing.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My comments were as a consequence of trying to understand why so many young black people felt their lives were not mattering and why so many black children are raised in poverty.  I'm genuinely sorry if you think it meant anything else. In ,y previous post I did include mothers but ots not as prevalent.  There is a stark difference to Asian families who have a very low rate of absent non supporting parents and who tend to be high achievers.  If we cannot discuss these matters objectively then we wont be able to find solutions and that's what we need to be doing.
		
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Problem is it's easy to be abject about a subject you don't have personal experience of being put through. 

That's not a dig at you btw, I totally understand where you're coming from but this is the whole point of BLM marches to, we have many white men etc saying we need to be abject yet they haven't lived through the prejudice so cannot fully understand what it feels like to be made to feel the way they do hence they cannot remain abject and simply address it from our PoV, same way I replied to you initially.

Its easy for an outsider to look at quick stats and make judgement, but until you've been subject to certain treatments, and been included in a stat just because of who you are rather than because of your actions the ability to be abject is lost because its almost like rather than people acknowledge the poor treatment you get as a so called absent father or  because purely of black skin in the case of what's happening now its essentially like your feelings are brushed aside to discuss it purely from someone else's point of view that's in many ways unaffected.

No we need to stop trying to take the high ground and being abject and actually try to understand what its like for people to be persecuted for their colour, sex or even absenteeism without knowing their story and seek to find ways to improve how we treat those people as more than a lopsided stat.

I take your points on board but in this case I simply cannot agree, so perhaps best we end our particular dance on this thread with each other 👍🏻


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Problem is it's easy to be abject about a subject you don't have personal experience of being put through.

That's not a dig at you btw, I totally understand where you're coming from but this is the whole point of BLM marches to, we have many white men etc saying we need to be abject yet they haven't lived through the prejudice so cannot fully understand what it feels like to be made to feel the way they do hence they cannot remain abject and simply address it from our PoV, same way I replied to you initially.

Its easy for an outsider to look at quick stats and make judgement, but until you've been subject to certain treatments, and been included in a stat just because of who you are rather than because of your actions the ability to be abject is lost because its almost like rather than people acknowledge the poor treatment you get as a so called absent father or  because purely of black skin in the case of what's happening now its essentially like your feelings are brushed aside to discuss it purely from someone else's point of view that's in many ways unaffected.

No we need to stop trying to take the high ground and being abject and actually try to understand what its like for people to be persecuted for their colour, sex or even absenteeism without knowing their story and seek to find ways to improve how we treat those people as more than a lopsided stat.

I take your points on board but in this case I simply cannot agree, so perhaps best we end our particular dance on this thread with each other 👍🏻
		
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OK, I understand you but feel I have to make a reply.

You cant say that because someone isnt black they cant have a view on what needs to be done to solve the problem or cannot understand it.   Often it's easier to see a problem and understand why it's a problem and what needs to be done about it if you can take a detached or 'objective' view of it, it's often hard to do this when you are inside the issue and your emotions are affecting your logic.

Experts and academics often have no practical experience in the subject they study, they tend to be very good at taking a detached unemotional viewpoint or what is sometimes called a 'helicopter view'  One where you look at the problem as an impartial observer that only considers the subject by its inherent components.
To me using slogans like 'Black Lives Matter'  or 'Taking the Knee'  or throwing statues in a dock solve nothing, they just perpetuate the problem by looking at the symptoms and not understanding the true causes.   If as a Country or World community we want to make real changes that can create better equality of life oppertunities then we have to be strong enough to open up and be prepared to look the problem square in the face and not shy away from open debate, shutting down views because they seem offensive to some people or contrary to long held norms is not going to create the type of change needed here.

Of course I will understand if you no longer wish to discuss this matter with me, that is always your right and perogative.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, I understand you but feel I have to make a reply.

You cant say that because someone isnt black they cant have a view on what needs to be done to solve the problem or cannot understand it.   Often it's easier to see a problem and understand why it's a problem and what needs to be done about it if you can take a detached or 'objective' view of it, it's often hard to do this when you are inside the issue and your emotions are affecting your logic.

Experts and academics often have no practical experience in the subject they study, they tend to be very good at taking a detached unemotional viewpoint or what is sometimes called a 'helicopter view'  One where you look at the problem as an impartial observer that only considers the subject by its inherent components.
To me using slogans like 'Black Lives Matter'  or 'Taking the Knee'  or throwing statues in a dock solve nothing, they just perpetuate the problem by looking at the symptoms and not understanding the true causes.   If as a Country or World community we want to make real changes that can create better equality of life oppertunities then we have to be strong enough to open up and be prepared to look the problem square in the face and not shy away from open debate, shutting down views because they seem offensive to some people or contrary to long held norms is not going to create the type of change needed here.

Of course I will understand if you no longer wish to discuss this matter with me, that is always your right and perogative.
		
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I never said they can't have a view, I said its easy to be abject when you haven't suffered what they have and to expect anyone that's suffered it to be abject is IMO ridiculous.  But I certainly can say because someone isn't black they cannot understand it, because quite simply we can't because we as white people don't face the levels of racism or prejudices black people do and have done for decades. 

As for the expert comments again detracts from the msg of BLM, Who are the real experts on how racial abuse feels, the impartial boffin with his component parts or the millions in BAME communities that are suffering daily. Why should a black man or woman have to detract themselves from the colour of their skin in a debate in order to gain equality and be treated better by society. There can be no impartiality where this debate is concerned because to remove that is again to undermine the msg of what needs to be discussed and changed. We're not talking about Brexit here and getting the best deal for trade with inherent components etc, we're talking about actual human lives, people that are treated differently for no reason other than their skin colour. There can be no sitting on the fence impartial views, we we either acknowledge that Black lives do actually matter and make change or remain impartial and hope it blows over. Also again it's easy to use the remain impartial line when we're not the ones being treated differently because of our skin colour.. 

Black Lives Matter, isn't just a slogan and if that's how you view it then you have completely missed the message. It's not a slogan at all, its a statement of fact pure and simple that black lives do matter and should no longer be treated differently or persecuted based on skin colour. 

Nobody is shying away from open debate, if you think they are then again I think you're missing the msg and purely focused on the individuals that have chosen to riot instead of protest and speak out, they are the minority but they get more press. As for we shouldn't be shutting down views because they're offensive really! That's exactly what we should be doing shutting down every view that pigeon holes or is offensive that is purely based on skin colour or other prejudices. You mentioned the long term norms won't change, you're absolutely right they won't if we continue to take the abject and impartial views you seem to be promoting. The only way those long term held norms change isn't to accept others have offensive views its to confront them in the correct abd legal ways to remove those prejudices from our societies. 

I wont discuss this further with you as previously mentioned because we couldn't be any further apart in our views. I simply cannot even agree to  disagree that we need to remain abject and simply let the experts deal with it. Its something we all have to address together to bring change about and not accept things as they are.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I never said they can't have a view, I said its easy to be abject when you haven't suffered what they have and to expect anyone that's suffered it to be abject is IMO ridiculous.  But I certainly can say because someone isn't black they cannot understand it, because quite simply we can't because we as white people don't face the levels of racism or prejudices black people do and have done for decades.

As for the expert comments again detracts from the msg of BLM, Who are the real experts on how racial abuse feels, the impartial boffin with his component parts or the millions in BAME communities that are suffering daily. Why should a black man or woman have to detract themselves from the colour of their skin in a debate in order to gain equality and be treated better by society. There can be no impartiality where this debate is concerned because to remove that is again to undermine the msg of what needs to be discussed and changed. We're not talking about Brexit here and getting the best deal for trade with inherent components etc, we're talking about actual human lives, people that are treated differently for no reason other than their skin colour. There can be no sitting on the fence impartial views, we we either acknowledge that Black lives do actually matter and make change or remain impartial and hope it blows over. Also again it's easy to use the remain impartial line when we're not the ones being treated differently because of our skin colour..

Black Lives Matter, isn't just a slogan and if that's how you view it then you have completely missed the message. It's not a slogan at all, its a statement of fact pure and simple that black lives do matter and should no longer be treated differently or persecuted based on skin colour.

Nobody is shying away from open debate, if you think they are then again I think you're missing the msg and purely focused on the individuals that have chosen to riot instead of protest and speak out, they are the minority but they get more press. As for we shouldn't be shutting down views because they're offensive really! That's exactly what we should be doing shutting down every view that pigeon holes or is offensive that is purely based on skin colour or other prejudices. You mentioned the long term norms won't change, you're absolutely right they won't if we continue to take the abject and impartial views you seem to be promoting. The only way those long term held norms change isn't to accept others have offensive views its to confront them in the correct abd legal ways to remove those prejudices from our societies.

I wont discuss this further with you as previously mentioned because we couldn't be any further apart in our views. I simply cannot even agree to  disagree that we need to remain abject and simply let the experts deal with it. Its something we all have to address together to bring change about and not accept things as they are.
		
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OK, I do understand your view and disagree with it, like you do with mine.  Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white,  William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism.  I repeat, you dont have to be inside the problem to understand it or find ways to fix it.  I am not suggesting Black Lives Dont Matter, only a moron would think that, what I'm saying is to fix things it takes more than what's happening now, much more.


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white, William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism.
		
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Obviously everyone understands the evil of racism.

I think Wolf is right, anyone who says that whites can’t have an opinion is an idiot. But we can never truly understand what it’s like. 

I ask you this; there is specific, documented information available of every aspect of pregnancy. Do you think a man can know truly know what going through pregnancy is like?


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain  how  a  country  where  its  last  POTUS  was  black, where black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  the land,  black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  police  departments,  where  the  majority  of  players  and  multi-millionaires  in  sporting  circles  are  black,  where  black  multi-millionaire  actors  appear  on  screen,  where  people  Of minorities  have  been  given  exclusive  access  to  jobs,  where there  are  black  college  and  university  only  scholarships, black only charities And black only  music  awards,  and the  majority  of black  deaths  are  at  the  hands  of  other  black  people,  where  exactly is  the systemic  racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. And personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done.


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## Wolf (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, I do understand your view and disagree with it, like you do with mine.  Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white,  William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism.  I repeat, you dont have to be inside the problem to understand it or find ways to fix it.  I am not suggesting Black Lives Dont Matter, only a moron would think that, what I'm saying is to fix things it takes more than what's happening now, much more.
		
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I am only replying because I want to address that you feel I am  missing or being dismissive of your point which is simply not true, I just completely disagree with you.

Wilberforce, Lincoln et al had the best interests of people at heart and were willing to speak out against it which is the right thing to do as we all should, but they never had to suffer it personally. So imo whilst they could sympathise from what they saw and were willing to speak up they couldn't truly understand what it personally felt like. That's not dismissal of your point its a simple fact.

@DanFST analogy of pregnancy is a good one, I have 6 kids and seen what every step of pregnancy & child birth looks like, gave the right support where needed but I can never understand how it feels to be in that person's body and going through those changes . I will leave it there and kindly bow out, but just to reiterate my opening line, I'm not missing your point or being dismissive of your opinion I simply don't agree thats all it is.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain  how  a  country  where  its  *last  *POTUS  was  black, where black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  the land,  black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  police  departments,  where  the  majority  of  players  and  multi-millionaires  in  sporting  circles  are  black,  where  black  multi-millionaire  actors  appear  on  screen,  where  people  Of minorities  have  been  given  exclusive  access  to  jobs,  where there  are  black  college  and  university  only  scholarships, black only charities And black only  music  awards,  and the  majority  of black  deaths  are  at  the  hands  of  other  black  people,  where  exactly is  the systemic  racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. A*nd personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done*.
		
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I think the key word there is last. Not current.  And thanks you for your compassion and empathy Wayne, it is an example for all of us.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/980275507462852608


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## patricks148 (Jun 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the key word there is last. Not current.  And thanks you for your compassion and empathy, it is an example for all of us.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/980275507462852608

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what are you on about, its very diverse, theres both Blondes and Brunetts.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain  how  a  country  where  its  last  POTUS  was  black, where black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  the land,  black  people  hold  the  highest  offices  in  police  departments,  where  the  majority  of  players  and  multi-millionaires  in  sporting  circles  are  black,  where  black  multi-millionaire  actors  appear  on  screen,  where  people  Of minorities  have  been  given  exclusive  access  to  jobs,  where there  are  black  college  and  university  only  scholarships, black only charities And black only  music  awards,  and the  majority  of black  deaths  are  at  the  hands  of  other  black  people,  where  exactly is  the systemic  racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. And personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done.
		
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A few facts for you

Wealth - 
Whites make up 77% of the US population, and own 90% of the wealth
Blacks make up 13% of the US population, and own 2.3% of the wealth
For every $100 white families earn in income, black families earn just $57.30

Employment - 
Black unemployment has consistently been twice that of white unemployment for the last 60 years
Blacks with college degrees are twice as likely to be unemployed as all other graduates
Job applicants with white-sounding names get called for interviews about 50% more of the time than applicants with black-sounding names, even when they have identical resumes.

Education - 
While black children constitute 18% of preschoolers nationwide, Black students are 3x more likely than white students to be suspended for the same infractions. They make up nearly 50% of suspensions.
Overall, black students represent 16% of student enrollment and 27% of students referred to law enforcement. 
Once black children are in the criminal justice system, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults.

Criminal Justice - 
Blacks make up 13% of the population, they represent about 40% of the prison population
When black people are convicted, they are about 20% more likely to be sentenced to jail time, and typically see sentences 20% longer than those for whites who were convicted of similar crimes. 

It's interesting that Trump voters are far more likely to deny systemic racism, while Democrat voters acknowledge it is an ongoing problem.

Of course there are examples of positive discrimination, but ask yourself why they exist? In an attempt to help rectify the problem. Just because these examples exist, doesn't mean the problem has gone away.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I think Wolf is right, anyone who says that whites can’t have an opinion is an idiot. But we can never truly understand what it’s like.
		
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Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white.  His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys. 
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white. 
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area. 
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white. 

This is what winds me up the most.  Because I'm from a majority group I have no say.  When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!

So even if it isn't to the same extent we can all relate to racism an the effects is has on people


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white.  His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys.
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white.
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area.
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white.

This is what winds me up the most.  Because I'm from a majority group I have no say.  When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!
		
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I remember as a kid getting called a "white b*****d" by a group of Asian kids I walked past.
I wasn't really bothered by it but it was rather surreal as at the time I thought racism was only a one way street.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them. Yes he was killed by a badly trained individual who had no understanding of choke holds and the possible consequences.  Man was an idiot but your not telling me he deliberately went out to kill the man.  His chance of justice from the court system is now out the window in the fear of any reprisals.

No doubt someone will want a permant memorial ignoring all the bad things that he did - oh hang on.

Now political leaders in this country are "taking the knee", they have had years to sort this but there was no publicity in it. An idiot MP condemning a minister of Asian origin that they don't understand, now that was racist.  Politicians and rioter deciding without any dialog that we should start and have removed some of the landmarks in the country that without google they wouldn't have a clue of the individuals past.  Perhaps next we should destroy all the religious buildings and monuments because of the suppression and fear that was caused in the name of religion.

And now if you dare to counter with "All lives matter" you are a racist because the idiots have realised that the very statement is racist, in my humble opinion, but obviously my opinion no longer matters or counts because people who have no idea of my background and experience have decided.

The country has gone mad and now the silent majority don't have a voice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2020)

Can absolutely understand the wish and perhaps need to remove public celebration of individuals and attitudes that were OK 'back then' but are not or are less acceptable today.

But I not at all sure about HBO Max removing Gone with the Wind from their offerings.  That is censorship.  I can watch that film and it most certainly provides me with an insight into slavery in the southern states; attitudes in the Confederacy and the background to the American Civil War - and why - when we see the Confederate flag being flown today we know what it represents and should absolutely not simply think of it as a 'cool' flag.

Talking Pictures TV shows many films and TV programmes from earlier times which include attitudes, language and behaviour across all matters (including race - see for example Love thy Neighbour) that many, if not most, viewing today could find offensive.  But before the start of any such film or programme the channel puts up a very clear statement - that attitudes towards such things were very different when the film/programme was made.  I am warned that if I am likely to be offended I simply do not watch.  And if I do, and I am uncomfortable with what I am viewing, then I know how to change channel.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them. Yes he was killed by a badly trained individual who had no understanding of choke holds and the possible consequences.  Man was an idiot but your not telling me he deliberately went out to kill the man.  His chance of justice from the court system is now out the window in the fear of any reprisals.

No doubt someone will want a permant memorial ignoring all the bad things that he did - oh hang on.

Now political leaders in this country are "taking the knee", they have had years to sort this but there was no publicity in it. An idiot MP condemning a minister of Asian origin that they don't understand, now that was racist.  Politicians and rioter deciding without any dialog that we should start and have removed some of the landmarks in the country that without google they wouldn't have a clue of the individuals past.  Perhaps next we should destroy all the religious buildings and monuments because of the suppression and fear that was caused in the name of religion.

*And now if you dare to counter with "All lives matter" you are a racist *because the idiots have realised that the very statement is racist, in my humble opinion, but obviously my opinion no longer matters or counts because people who have no idea of my background and experience have decided.

The country has gone mad and now the silent majority don't have a voice.
		
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The words aren't racist, however it is a loaded phrase knowingly used by racists amongst others to denigrate the BLM movement.

BLM are not saying 'only Black Lives Matter", they are saying "Black Lives Matter Too"


If you've got a few minutes, this article explains it a lot more eloquantly than I can.

https://www.parents.com/kids/respon...esnt-work-in-terms-simple-enough-for-a-child/


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white.  His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys.
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white.
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area.
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white.

This is what winds me up the most.  Because I'm from a majority group I have no say.  When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!

So even if it isn't to the same extent we can all relate to racism an the effects is has on people
		
Click to expand...

Let me guess, you’re over 45?

I’m sorry the brown kids wouldn’t let you play cricket with them, that must have really made living your life hard.

Maybe if there was equality someone wouldn’t have felt the need to enforce some bull**** quota and you would have got the job!


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them.
		
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Do you think the press will eventually turn on him like they usually do, or keep quiet as they will get accused of racism?


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The words aren't racist, however it is a loaded phrase knowingly used by racists amongst others to denigrate the BLM movement.

BLM are not saying 'only Black Lives Matter", they are saying "Black Lives Matter Too"


If you've got a few minutes, this article explains it a lot more eloquantly than I can.

https://www.parents.com/kids/respon...esnt-work-in-terms-simple-enough-for-a-child/

Click to expand...

Then they should add the word "Too" if they really mean it.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Let me guess, you’re over 45?

I’m sorry the brown kids wouldn’t let you play cricket with them, that must have really made living your life hard.

Maybe if there was equality someone wouldn’t have felt the need to enforce some bull**** quota and you would have got the job!
		
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No I'm 37.    Funny how you left out my experiences of being beaten and left bleeding for my jacket out your post and being chased through the streets of Birmingham. I have experienced racism and I'm sorry it not to your level of extreme.   Bottom line is opportunitys are there for everyone.  Funny how Asian people are not beeting their drum.  Why?   they apply themselves, take the opportunity they have been given a make something of themselves.  All the Asian kids at my school sat at the front and got straight A's in all their subjects.  None of them got held back and spout racism at every possible opportunity.   I went to school with lots of Asian kids and today they are extremely successful in life.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Do you think the press will eventually turn on him like they usually do, or keep quiet as they will get accused of racism?
		
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No because they will be afraid of the reaction from the rioters.

Just watched an item on BBC where the reporter felt it was wrong to use the "N" which we are all frighten to even think but fine to use the "Spick" word. Double standards.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Then they should add the word "Too" if they really mean it.
		
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I would have thought the meaning of BLM was pretty obvious, but just in case, this might help you.


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			No I'm 37.    Funny how you left out my experiences of being beaten and left bleeding for my jacket out your post and being chased through the streets of Birmingham. I have experienced racism and I'm sorry it not to your level of extreme.   Bottom line is opportunitys are there for everyone.  Funny how Asian people are not beeting their drum.  Why?   they apply themselves, take the opportunity they have been given a make something of themselves.  All the Asian kids at my school sat at the front and got straight A's in all their subjects.  None of them got held back and spout racism at every possible opportunity.   I went to school with lots of Asian kids and today they are extremely successful in life.
		
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I got my phone nicked by a Romanian in a pub. It must have been racially motivated! 

Ahh yes, the generalisation of all Asians to show you aren’t racist. All we need to do is convince the black like the all Asians community to apply themselves and then this will sort itself out.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No because they will be afraid of the reaction from the rioters.
		
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What a load of drivel. You are surpassing yourself.

I know this is a forum mainly populated by reasonably well-off older white males, so I should know what to expect, but some of the stuff I've read in this thread just makes me despair.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			No I'm 37.    Funny how you left out my experiences of being beaten and left bleeding for my jacket out your post and being chased through the streets of Birmingham. I have experienced racism and I'm sorry it not to your level of extreme.   Bottom line is opportunitys are there for everyone.  Funny how Asian people are not beeting their drum.  Why?   they apply themselves, take the opportunity they have been given a make something of themselves.  All the Asian kids at my school sat at the front and got straight A's in all their subjects.  None of them got held back and spout racism at every possible opportunity.   I went to school with lots of Asian kids and today they are extremely successful in life.
		
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Funny, I thought Muslims were the bogeymen, or was that last month?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2020)

I am looking forwards to the next Cancer Research appeal.

*Please donate to help fight cancer, it is a disease that impacts a lot of society, but with your help we can significantly reduce the impact and give people a better life and build a better society**

_*also we must point out there are lots of other nasty diseases that people suffer from such as Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, African trypanosomiasis, Visceral leishmaniasis, Primary amoebic meningoencephalitis, Naegleria fowleri, Flu season, Seasonal Influenza and Rabies.  So if you're suffering from cancer then put a lid on it and stop keep going on about it. All diseases matter._


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What a load of drivel. You are surpassing yourself.

I know this is a forum mainly populated by reasonably well-off older white males, so I should know what to expect, but some of the stuff I've read in this thread just makes me despair.
		
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And the proof of my post that remarks are made by people who have no idea of my background and experience came to pass in less than an hour. Time to go as the bait not debate crew are in.

First time I've been described as well off older white, only correct in one part.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I got my phone nicked by a Romanian in a pub. It must have been racially motivated! 

Ahh yes, the generalisation of all Asians to show you aren’t racist. All we need to do is convince the black like the all Asians community to apply themselves and then this will sort itself out.
		
Click to expand...

Well, when the guys mugging me said "you white Sutton Boys always have more money than this where is it? “. Then yeh, I take that as racist.

And just for the record.  Being general about about a group is not racist.  Is it racist to say that black people are much better sprinters than white people?  The Olympic medal table would confirm that.

From reading your other posts you seem to want to squeeze racism out of every word you can find.  It just makes people act a lot more dismissive about your comments.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Then they should add the word "Too" if they really mean it.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on .


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Well, when the guys mugging me said "you white Sutton Boys always have more money than this where is it? “. Then yeh, I take that as racist.

And just for the record.  Being general about about a group is not racist.  Is it racist to say that black people are much better sprinters than white people?  The Olympic medal table would confirm that.

From reading your other posts you seem to want to squeeze racism out of every word you can find.  It just makes people act a lot more dismissive about your comments.
		
Click to expand...

It only makes idiots dismissive, that’s fine by me. 

You can focus all you want on individual acts of prejudice. Racism is insidious.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What a load of drivel. You are surpassing yourself.

I know this is a forum mainly populated by reasonably well-off older white males, so I should know what to expect, but some of the stuff I've read in this thread just makes me despair.
		
Click to expand...

You are a reasonably well off white man. Does that make you incapable of a reasoned opinion, or is that you are not 'older' you have a get out of jail free card to your own condemnation.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Obviously everyone understands the evil of racism.

I think Wolf is right, anyone who says that whites can’t have an opinion is an idiot. But we can never truly understand what it’s like.

I ask you this; there is specific, documented information available of every aspect of pregnancy. Do you think a man can know truly know what going through pregnancy is like?
		
Click to expand...

I honestly dont understand this. Are you suggesting that people who havent actually experienced something cant understand it, they wont have experienced it but they will understand the issue and what the effects are on people who have. Do I need to have Covid to understand what it's like, do I need to be hung to have an opinion on the death penalty. I honestly dont know why this type of arguement is being used. It is detracting from my comments anyhow.

The point I was trying to  make which seems to be getting diverted is that protesting, rioting, using slogans written on pieces of cardboard, throwing statues in a dock will not solve anything.   This will all blow over if left as it is just like the riots a decade ago where an armed black man was shot by a policeman.   The real issues need to be understood, not the slogans but the real issues clear and undeniable if they are to be changed.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Do you think the press will eventually turn on him like they usually do, or keep quiet as they will get accused of racism?
		
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They wouldn’t dare,I honestly can’t believe how he’s being turned into a modern Rosa Parks.
Wonder how the women he robbed at gunpoint feels about it.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 10, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270646389089976320


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I honestly dont understand this. Are you suggesting that people who havent actually experienced something cant understand it, they wont have experienced it but they will understand the issue and what the effects are on people who have. Do I need to have Covid to understand what it's like. I honestly dont know why this type of arguement is being used.
		
Click to expand...

Let's do a test. Brave forum members can insist to their partners they know exactly how they felt when they were pregnant. Let's see who ends up in the dog house! Or ask them to explain what a kick in the nuts feels like.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

After we have torn down all the offensive statues....I was half expecting the Colston mob to start whacking him with their flip flops! 
Maybe we should knock the Pyramids...Great wall of china...Machu pichu down, all built with
enforced slavery....

Honestly social media is so full of White millennials full of guilt over slavery that any real genuine cause is lost in the cacophony of ignorance and faux outrage.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Well, when the guys mugging me said "you white Sutton Boys always have more money than this where is it? “. Then yeh, I take that as racist.

And just for the record.  *Being general about about a group is not racist*.  Is it racist to say that black people are much better sprinters than white people?  The Olympic medal table would confirm that.

From reading your other posts you seem to want to squeeze racism out of every word you can find.  It just makes people act a lot more dismissive about your comments.
		
Click to expand...

don’t really want to get drawn into the false equivalence nonsense on the threat, except to say it’s an incredibly nuanced issue. However this is the very definition of racism!!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Let's do a test. Brave forum members can insist to their partners they know exactly how they felt when they were pregnant. Let's see who ends up in the dog house! Or ask them to explain what a kick in the nuts feels like.
		
Click to expand...

They both feel extremely painful. I think we all understand what pain feels like and are intelligent enough to understand what it is like for others.  I'm losing the point here,  if white people are not allowed an opinion on racism the solution to it is lost.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			don’t really want to get drawn into the false equivalence nonsense on the threat, except to say it’s an incredibly nuanced issue. However this is the very definition of racism!!

Click to expand...

Come on now, is saying 'Black lives matter' not a generalisation about a group.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			don’t really want to get drawn into the false equivalence nonsense on the threat, except to say it’s an incredibly nuanced issue. However this is the very definition of racism!!

Click to expand...

So you're saying it's racist to say that black people are the best at sprinting in the world?   The fact that every gold medal has gone to that group doesn't matter ?


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They both feel extremely painful. I think we all understand what pain feels like and are intelligent enough to understand what it is like for others
		
Click to expand...

But it's nuanced, that's the point. A kick in the plums feels nothing like a broken bone.



SocketRocket said:



			I'm losing the point here, if white people are not allowed an opinion on racism the solution to it is lost.
		
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And I totally agree as I said in the post before quoted. But an opinion and ignorantly believing you completely understand something are totally different. Hence the wife test!


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

It’s total obfuscation and false equivalence to cite the 2 examples above. The movement itself has a racial definition obviously , the sprinter thing, unrelated nonsense. 

If you think systemic racism isn’t a thing because of the above or because individually you had a bad experience then unfortunately you’re part of the problem.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They both feel extremely painful. I think we all understand what pain feels like and are intelligent enough to understand what it is like for others.  I'm losing the point here,  if white people are not allowed an opinion on racism the solution to it is lost.
		
Click to expand...

 you can have an opinion, it’s just not a very ‘educated’  one.  Note educated re experience not intellect. 
I have no clue what it’s like to be subjected to systemic racism, & I accept that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			So you're saying it's racist to say that black people are the best at sprinting in the world?   The fact that every gold medal has gone to that group doesn't matter ?
		
Click to expand...

Alan Wells.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Alan Wells.

Click to expand...

This is what happens. Don’t get drawn into it 😉

I don’t think it’s deliberate in this case but it’s a tactic of the ‘opposition’. Deflect, obfuscate and make false equivalence. 
We’re not taking about Olympic medals, we’re talking about systemic racism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			This is what happens. I don’t think it’s deliberate in the case but it’s a tactic of the ‘opposition’. Deflect, obfuscate and make false equivalence.
We’re not taking about Olympic medals, we’re talking about systemic racism.
		
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I blame the white millennials.


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The words aren't racist, however it is a loaded phrase knowingly used by racists amongst others to denigrate the BLM movement.

BLM are not saying 'only Black Lives Matter", they are saying "Black Lives Matter Too"


If you've got a few minutes, this article explains it a lot more eloquantly than I can.

https://www.parents.com/kids/respon...esnt-work-in-terms-simple-enough-for-a-child/

Click to expand...


You’re wrong, BLM aren’t saying black lives matter too, FIVE black people were killed during the protests, so far the police have only identified seven suspects for one of the killings (all black), there will be no protest over their deaths because they weren’t killed by white people or cops, if black lives really mattered to BLM they would be concentrating their efforts in their own communities.


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Alan Wells.

Click to expand...

Going off topic, this kid is one to watch. If he ran that at the Olympics he'd have come 6th, even with the slow start!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122317722422005761


We should go back to the topic at hand.


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

So a man stands at Speakers Corner and says "Black lives matter".
Following day same man stands and says "White lives matter".

I wonder which speech is termed racial.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			You’re wrong, BLM aren’t saying black lives matter too, FIVE black people were killed during the protests, so far the police have only identified seven suspects for one of the killings (all black), there will be no protest over their deaths because they weren’t killed by white people or cops, if black lives really mattered to BLM they would be concentrating their efforts in their own communities.
		
Click to expand...

Too late I am drawn in!!! Help. 
The issue is treatment of a minority group by the instruments of state, the law, the police etc.......not crime within a community. Why deflect? That’s what my kids do


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			But it's nuanced, that's the point. A kick in the plums feels nothing like a broken bone.



And I totally agree as I said in the post before quoted. But an opinion and ignorantly believing you completely understand something are totally different. Hence the wife test!
		
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Who said they totally understand,  I certainly never and if you believe I did you've completely missed my point, my comments say the complete opposite.  I am suggesting that the only way to make a positive change is for the matter to be fully understood, then it will be possible to look for meaningful solutions, otherwise you just have knee jerk reactions that don't achieve anything useful.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			So a man stands at Speakers Corner and says "Black lives matter".
Following day same man stands and says "White lives matter".

I wonder which speech is termed racial.
		
Click to expand...

Both are.....but context is everything!!! You could start a white lives matter group in South Africa to protest the seemingly state legitimised killings of white farmers. Different thread, different day tho


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 10, 2020)

I'm seeing lots of slogans and soundbites from all sides

But what I would rather see is practical solutions to the problems that are undoubtedly out there,

until then, we are just going round in circles

Also whilst there are definitely issues here, they fade into insignificance compared to the USA over which we have absolutely no influence
therefore we should concentrate on getting our own house in order to be a beacon to other countries


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			Both are.....but context is everything!!! You could start a white lives matter group in South Africa to protest the seemingly state legitimise killings of white farmers. Different thread, different day tho
		
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I think half the problem is, nowadays if you don't appear to conform to the letter to a particular cause you are in the wrong, take BLM for instance, someone has a different take on it and they instantly get labelled as being racist, it's all over the pages of this thread in a subtle way.
If you're argument differs in any way to mine, sorry you're a racist and up go the stupid memes which try to further point the finger that I am right and you are an ignorant racist.
It seems gone are the days of reasonable discussion and debate, everyone gets labelled in some way or other.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			you can have an opinion, it’s just not a very ‘educated’  one.  Note educated re experience not intellect.
I have no clue what it’s like to be subjected to systemic racism, & I accept that.
		
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Really, as an intelligent man can you not understand what it would feel like, I find that hard to believe. Why is this being used, it seems like a diversion from what was being discussed. Is anyone suggesting white people have no part to play in looking for a solution to racism involving black people.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You are a reasonably well off white man. Does that make you incapable of a reasoned opinion, or is that you are not 'older' you have a get out of jail free card to your own condemnation.
		
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That's a bit subjective. I'm sure if you asked anyone, they would say they had a reasoned opinion. Even those we disagree with.

My point was about demographics. If you are old, white and male, you are more likely to be right-wing and xenophobic.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I'm seeing lots of slogans and soundbites from all sides

But what I would rather see is practical solutions to the problems that are undoubtedly out there,

until then, we are just going round in circles
		
Click to expand...

The practical solution starts with an acceptance that there is a systemic racial bias within western democracy. 
Without that we get nowhere & nothing improves. It flares up every now & then with increasing repercussions. 
I don’t really recognise my white privilege, I don’t even know if it’s a thing. I don’t really want to examine or challenge any beliefs that I’ve held for ever, but I’m prepared to ‘educate myself.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			This is what happens. Don’t get drawn into it 😉

I don’t think it’s deliberate in this case but it’s a tactic of the ‘opposition’. Deflect, obfuscate and make false equivalence. 
We’re not taking about Olympic medals, we’re talking about systemic racism.
		
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You was the one that said my comment was racist when it wasn't.  Just jumping on the train with all the others.  What I said was stereotypical not racist.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I'm seeing lots of slogans and soundbites from all sides

But what I would rather see is practical solutions to the problems that are undoubtedly out there,

until then, we are just going round in circles
		
Click to expand...

I fully agree. It's what I'm trying to put over here however we cannot find solutions until the problem is fully understood in non emotional clarity.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Alan Wells.

Click to expand...

Ssshhhhhh🤫. It doesn't support my argument!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's a bit subjective. I'm sure if you asked anyone, they would say they had a reasoned opinion. Even those we disagree with.

*My point was about demographics. If you are old, white and male, you are more likely to be right-wing and xenophobic*.
		
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Of course labelling someone without knowing them at all isn't even slightly similar to racism is it..... 

For me a major issue is the lack of trust from both sides. Imo racism blatantly isn't as bad as it was when I was a kid, or my dad was. That's not to say its good enough now. 

But, when I've discussed it face to face with friends who I know have faced prejudice. It's 20 year old memories that they use as their fuel. So they treat/get wound up during the discussion and presume the people they're talking to are the same as the arse holes 20 years ago. When in fact they aren't.


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I think half the problem is, nowadays if you don't appear to conform to the letter to a particular cause you are in the wrong, take BLM for instance, someone has a different take on it and they instantly get labelled as being racist, it's all over the pages of this thread in a subtle way.
If you're argument differs in any way to mine, sorry you're a racist and up go the stupid memes which try to further point the finger that I am right and you are an ignorant racist.
It seems gone are the days of reasonable discussion and debate, everyone gets labelled in some way or other.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I've seen anyone called a racist on here. 

But you are totally right. your example above definitely happens, I got called a racist on Twitter t'other day! Also we have people boycotting Sainsbury's and various tea brands on the other side. Idiots in all walks of life, with lots of different views unfortunately!


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really, as an intelligent man can you not understand what it would feel like, I find that hard to believe. Why is this being used, it seems like a diversion from what was being discussed. Is anyone suggesting white people have no part to play in looking for a solution to racism involving black people.
		
Click to expand...

100% have a part to play, without this it won’t work, hence the current movement. I can’t speak for anyone else but take stop & search as an example. I’ve never been stopped, without reason!! Did get arrested once but I kind of deserved it 😱

I have no idea how this policy would impact on me. 
On a wider note, the BLM movement need to be careful. If it gets highjacked by an anti establishment radical left agenda it will be dismissed by most that could make a difference


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			You was the one that said my comment was racist when it wasn't.  Just jumping on the train with all the others.  What I said was stereotypical not racist.
		
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Look up the definition. There is no ‘ism without a stereotyping


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A few facts for you

Wealth -
Whites make up 77% of the US population, and own 90% of the wealth
Blacks make up 13% of the US population, and own 2.3% of the wealth
For every $100 white families earn in income, black families earn just $57.30

Employment -
Black unemployment has consistently been twice that of white unemployment for the last 60 years
Blacks with college degrees are twice as likely to be unemployed as all other graduates
Job applicants with white-sounding names get called for interviews about 50% more of the time than applicants with black-sounding names, even when they have identical resumes.

Education -
While black children constitute 18% of preschoolers nationwide, Black students are 3x more likely than white students to be suspended for the same infractions. They make up nearly 50% of suspensions.
Overall, black students represent 16% of student enrollment and 27% of students referred to law enforcement.
Once black children are in the criminal justice system, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults.

Criminal Justice -
Blacks make up 13% of the population, they represent about 40% of the prison population
When black people are convicted, they are about 20% more likely to be sentenced to jail time, and typically see sentences 20% longer than those for whites who were convicted of similar crimes.

It's interesting that Trump voters are far more likely to deny systemic racism, while Democrat voters acknowledge it is an ongoing problem.

Of course there are examples of positive discrimination, but ask yourself why they exist? In an attempt to help rectify the problem. Just because these examples exist, doesn't mean the problem has gone away.
		
Click to expand...

So you’re saying that those in charge of Education are all racist, that the majority of Employers are racist and so are most Judges too, I don’t think so, you’re doing what most people who insist there is systemic racism do, blame the system.

Positive discrimination has lead to employers getting A black employee and not the best employee, would you rather sit on a plane with the pilot who was the best in their class, or the best black graduate?

Blacks make up 13% of the population, but black adult males commit over 50% of murders, and black males under 18 commit over 60% of murders.

It’s interesting that the worst areas for crime committed by blacks are all controlled by Democrats, just like where Floyd was killed, it was controlled from top to bottom by Democrats, it was Clinton, a Democrat who signed the Tough on Crime bill, championed by Biden, a Democrat, that has lead to the high number of Blacks behind bars, so forget your Republicans are racist conspiracy.


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I don't think I've seen anyone called a racist on here.

But you are totally right. your example above definitely happens, I got called a racist on Twitter t'other day! Also we have people boycotting Sainsbury's and various tea brands on the other side. Idiots in all walks of life, with lots of different views unfortunately!
		
Click to expand...

Like I said in another thread a while ago, it's a trait of modern society led by a Facebook, Twitter generation, you only really read what you agree with as that's how these website taylor your content, you never get to see the other side of the argument and are surrounded by people who in general always agree with your opinions.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's a bit subjective. I'm sure if you asked anyone, they would say they had a reasoned opinion. Even those we disagree with.

My point was about demographics. If you are old, white and male, you are more likely to be right-wing and xenophobic.
		
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That's such a closed minded comment.  It embodies everything you suggest is wrong in others.  Unbelievable.


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## Dogma (Jun 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Like I said in another thread a while ago, it's a trait of modern society led by a Facebook, Twitter generation, you only really read what you agree with as that's how these website taylor your content, you never get to see the other side of the argument and are surrounded by people who in general always agree with your opinions.
		
Click to expand...

I'd disagree with that if I'm honest. 

Social media is extremely biased to the left as its fuelled by the main media who are too scared to be seen as too Right and younger users of social media, who are often very left sided. 

A good example of this is the previous election. 

If you'd have hedged a bet of the election based on the social media opinion back in December, you'd have got the result wrong.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's such a closed minded comment.  It embodies everything you suggest is wrong in others.  Unbelievable.
		
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Yep don’t think it’s helpful. Everyone needs to park any preconceptions. 
The worst thing that could happen is a siege mentality to develop in certain demographics


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the key word there is last. Not current.  And thanks you for your compassion and empathy Wayne, it is an example for all of us.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/980275507462852608

Click to expand...

The key word was last... are you having a laugh, just because because the current POTUS isn’t black the US is now racist, if racism was systemic Obama wouldn’t of even been POTUS, it took a lot of white votes for him to win.

And no, I don’t have any empathy for a guy who pleaded guilty to bursting in to the house of a pregnant BLACK woman, then putting a gun to her stomach and threatening to kill her and her unborn baby if she didn’t hand over any cash she had, and I saddened that there are so many people who do.


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I would have thought the meaning of BLM was pretty obvious, but just in case, this might help you.






Click to expand...


And yet they continue to murder each other in huge numbers, why is it that those lives don’t seem to matter I wonder?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's such a closed minded comment.  It embodies everything you suggest is wrong in others.  Unbelievable.
		
Click to expand...

How is it closed-minded? It's a simple statement of fact that older people are more right-wing and distrusting of foreigners and minorities than young people are. There are plenty of studies and polls out there to back that up.


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How is it closed-minded? It's a simple statement of fact that older people are more right-wing and distrusting of foreigners and minorities than young people are. There are plenty of studies and polls out there to back that up.
		
Click to expand...

Go on then, I'll bite.
Any chance of a link? 

I feel unclean now 🤒


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How is it closed-minded? It's a simple statement of fact that older people are more right-wing and distrusting of foreigners and minorities than young people are. There are plenty of studies and polls out there to back that up.
		
Click to expand...

If you can't see that it's systemic prejudice then you are as bad as those you so readily condem. Try thinking it through.


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What a load of drivel. You are surpassing yourself.

I know this is a forum mainly populated by reasonably well-off older white males, so I should know what to expect, but some of the stuff I've read in this thread just makes me despair.
		
Click to expand...


So just because someone is white and worked hard to gain some wealth they are racist LOL, that’s no different than saying if a group of people are black and poor they’re criminals.


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			You’re doing what most people who insist there is systemic racism do, blame the system.
		
Click to expand...


https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html

White P.O.S kills 87 in Norway. is a "political extremist" who "turned the tidy Scandinavian capital into a scene reminiscent of terrorist attacks" 

Not a terrorist.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Dogma said:



			I'd disagree with that if I'm honest.

Social media is extremely biased to the left as its fuelled by the main media who are too scared to be seen as too Right and younger users of social media, who are often very left sided.

A good example of this is the previous election.

If you'd have hedged a bet of the election based on the social media opinion back in December, you'd have got the result wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, Bezeerk had it just about right, it’s tailored to the users taste.

If you were seeing a lot of left wing stuff, I’d suggest you need to check your friends list.


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## Dogma (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope, Bezeerk had it just about right, it’s tailored to the users taste.

If you were seeing a lot of left wing stuff, I’d suggest you need to check your friends list.

Click to expand...

Ha, I'd agree with that aspect, but I'm not just talking about personal accounts I follow. 

I'm also on about the media accounts that have large amounts of users that I also follow and cater for the masses. 

They are very much left of centre or left, as to not alienate who they perceive to be the main body of their followers; normally young people. 

Even the BBC is starting to come in to this category


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			The key word was last... are you having a laugh, just because because the current POTUS isn’t black the US is now racist, if racism was systemic Obama wouldn’t of even been POTUS, it took a lot of white votes for him to win.

And no, I don’t have any empathy for a guy who pleaded guilty to bursting in to the house of a pregnant BLACK woman, then putting a gun to her stomach and threatening to kill her and her unborn baby if she didn’t hand over any cash she had, and I saddened that there are so many people who do.
		
Click to expand...

Once a criminal, always a criminal then? No chance of rehabilitation?

Does that say more about the US Justice System than the individual?


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

therod said:



			Too late I am drawn in!!! Help.
The issue is treatment of a minority group by the instruments of state, the law, the police etc.......not crime within a community. Why deflect? That’s what my kids do
		
Click to expand...

Deflect?
So black lives only matter if they’re killed by police or white people? So the reality is that not All Black Lives Matter, why would that be? Maybe because there isn’t the need to take responsibility for the thousands killed at the hands of their own... help me out, why don’t all black lives matter?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Dogma said:



			Ha, I'd agree with that aspect, but I'm not just talking about personal accounts I follow.

I'm also on about the media accounts that have large amounts of users that I also follow and cater for the masses.

They are very much left of centre or left, as to not alienate who they perceive to be the main body of their followers; normally young people.

Even the BBC is starting to come in to this category 

Click to expand...

Apart from your obvious newspapers having their political bias, both sides accusse the BBC of favouring the opposition.
Personally I believe it’s down the user to make their own mind up through education rather than falling for one side or another.


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Once a criminal, always a criminal then? No chance of rehabilitation?

Does that say more about the US Justice System than the individual?
		
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Well he was under arrest for using fake money when he died, and there is no doubt that the streets are safer without him, or are you suggesting that his last prison sentence worked in ways his previous ones couldn’t.
Are we just supposed to forget he was prepared to kill a black woman and her unborn baby just because of the circumstances of his death.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			Well he was under arrest for using fake money when he died, and there is no doubt that the streets are safer without him, or are you suggesting that his last prison sentence worked in ways his previous ones couldn’t.
Are we just supposed to forget he was prepared to kill a black woman and her unborn baby just because of the circumstances of his death.
		
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Let’s work on facts, had not reoffended since release in 2014, therefore had served his time.

Arrested on suspicion of using a forged 20 Dollar Bill.

So again I ask you, can criminals be rehabilitated?


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			Well he was under arrest for using fake money when he died.
		
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You've used fake money before.


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html

White P.O.S kills 87 in Norway. is a "political extremist" who "turned the tidy Scandinavian capital into a scene reminiscent of terrorist attacks"

Not a terrorist.
		
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Muslim kills a bunch of soldiers on US Army base, not a terrorist, workplace violence.

BBC News- Muslim dies in bomb blast (no mention that it just so happens the bomb was strapped to him, and he detonated it killing a Priest).


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## JustWayne (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Let’s work on facts, had not reoffended since release in 2014, therefore had served his time.

Arrested on suspicion of using a forged 20 Dollar Bill.

So again I ask you, can criminals be rehabilitated?
		
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He did pass a fake bill when he made his purchase, so I don’t believe he hadn’t reoffended since 2014. I’ll say it again, I don’t think people should mourn the death of someone prepared to kill a woman and her unborn child over a few dollars.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			Deflect?
So black lives only matter if they’re killed by police or white people? So the reality is that not All Black Lives Matter, why would that be? Maybe because there isn’t the need to take responsibility for the thousands killed at the hands of their own... help me out, why don’t all black lives matter?
		
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 you appreciate the difference between deaths at the hands of instruments of the state and those by civilians??


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Go on then, I'll bite.
Any chance of a link?

I feel unclean now 🤒
		
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A standard poll may have a sample size of around 2,000, but YouGov has questioned 11,000 people over the past couple of weeks on how they intend to vote in the upcoming election. This allows us to delve deep into the different age groups, genders and educational backgrounds to understand the dynamics which will shape the election.
*Age*
In the 2017 general election age became a clear dividing line in British politics: older voters overwhelmingly voted Conservative and younger voters backed Labour.
The data shows that there are still some clear patterns along these lines, although the waters are somewhat muddied by a move away from two-party politics.







*Older people really ARE more racist: We become prejudiced as we age because we feel isolated and anxious about death, psychologists claim*

*Scientists said hating a group can grant some elderly people a sense of identity*
*This is because they can share their prejudices with others*
*For some the insecurities that commonly come with age lead to self-hatred*
*This self-hatred is then directed at minority groups, psychologists claim*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...acist-Prejudices-grow-feel-anxious-death.html  (interesting source!)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			He did pass a fake bill when he made his purchase, so I don’t believe he hadn’t reoffended since 2014. I’ll say it again, I don’t think people should mourn the death of someone prepared to kill a woman and her unborn child over a few dollars.
		
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So anyone using counterfeit money deserves to be executed?


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

JustWayne said:



			He did pass a fake bill when he made his purchase, so I don’t believe he hadn’t reoffended since 2014. I’ll say it again, I don’t think people should mourn the death of someone prepared to kill a woman and her unborn child over a few dollars.
		
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 most aren’t morning the individual, you could argue his death has been highjacked for political means. It’s just if you believe the cause to be justified


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2020)

“All lives matter.”

Before anyone jumps all over the above it’s in quotation marks for a reason. It’s a quote from a black woman I know very well. She has lived in a number of countries around the world, and experienced elements of racism in all of them. I’ve seen her suffer racist attacks for over 50 years, inc from Farage’s blackshirts during May’s failed GE.

She is a dignified, all-loving individual who does am amazing amount of work for society, especially the elderly, even though she’s been metaphorically kicked from pillar to post down the years.

In recent months, even with an underlying health condition, she‘s been out there working incredibly hard for everyone. Sometimes up to 20 house calls a day to the most vulnerable in society. She doesn’t see colour, race, religion or even character. She sees people who need help.

”All lives matter.” Her words, not mine. And if some village idiots want to politicise it, that’s their choice. If they want to take it down to a level of the haters from the other side, that’s their choice.

”All lives matter.”


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How is it closed-minded? It's a simple statement of fact that older people are more right-wing and distrusting of foreigners and minorities than young people are. There are plenty of studies and polls out there to back that up.
		
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Why did you feel you needed to say it, does it have some bearing on the subject or is it a convenient blunt instrument to justify a poor arguement.   To use demographics this way for creating divisions is just like saying millenials are more likely to be spoilt brats who dont understand hardship.
What about people who rent holiday homes, are they more likely to be greedy capitalists who are creating housing shortages for the needy.   Xenophobia is a trait not exclusive to the elderly and if I had the will to troll the internet no doubt I could find many links to suggest any demographic could be culpable of fearing foreigners, in saying this why did you need to turn the debate into a fear of foreigners, surely most black people aren't foreign.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

People who experience a black on white race fuelled incident, then use that to declare that the issue “goes both ways” are the same people who look out of the window in May, see that it’s snowing and claim that this proves Climate change is a myth. 

One is a symptom, the other is a disease.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why did you feel you needed to say it, does it have some bearing on the subject or is it a convenient blunt instrument to justify a poor arguement.   To use demographics this way for creating divisions is just like saying millenials are more likely to be spoilt brats who dont understand hardship.
What about people who rent holiday homes, are they more likely to be greedy capitalists who are creating housing shortages for the needy.   Xenophobia is a trait not exclusive to the elderly and if I had the will to troll the internet no doubt I could find many links to suggest any demographic could be culpable of fearing foreigners, in saying this why did you need to turn the debate into a fear of foreigners, surely most black people aren't foreign.
		
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and breathe ....

the point I was making is that this place is mainly populated by older white males, who as a demographic tend to be more reactionary than society as a whole, so I expect to see those kind of views expressed here. And the usual suspects never fail to deliver. 

However, even allowing for this, I found it very poor to see BLM protesters dismissed as "rioters" along with some comments which were frankly racist.


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## DRW (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			People who experience a black on white race fuelled incident, then use that to declare that the issue “goes both ways” are the same people who look out of the window in May, see that it’s snowing and claim that this proves Climate change is a myth.

One is a symptom, the other is a disease.
		
Click to expand...

Both are a disease and real.

Neither should be tolerated.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			and breathe ....

the point I was making is that this place is mainly populated by older white males, who as a demographic tend to be more reactionary than society as a whole, so I expect to see those kind of views expressed here. And the usual suspects never fail to deliver.

However, even allowing for this, I found it very poor to see BLM protesters dismissed as "rioters" along with some comments which were frankly racist.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I fall squarely into the category you mention. I guess my politics are right of centre but that doesnt make me racist or xenophobic. I like to analyse situations like this and try to see exactly what the problem is rather than get carried away by what the populist views are.  I am still somewhat unclear what the BLM campaign is looking for, what changes would they like to see implemented. I understand people are thinking their lives dont matter but its not enough saying that, is it?


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Both are a disease and real.

Neither should be tolerated.
		
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Nope
Yup

Who said that one wasn’t real?

The first is a personal experience, extrapolated out to form a viewpoint of an entire group.
The second is an actual systemic problem.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A standard poll may have a sample size of around 2,000, but YouGov has questioned 11,000 people over the past couple of weeks on how they intend to vote in the upcoming election. This allows us to delve deep into the different age groups, genders and educational backgrounds to understand the dynamics which will shape the election.
*Age*
In the 2017 general election age became a clear dividing line in British politics: older voters overwhelmingly voted Conservative and younger voters backed Labour.
The data shows that there are still some clear patterns along these lines, although the waters are somewhat muddied by a move away from two-party politics.







*Older people really ARE more racist: We become prejudiced as we age because we feel isolated and anxious about death, psychologists claim*

*Scientists said hating a group can grant some elderly people a sense of identity*
*This is because they can share their prejudices with others*
*For some the insecurities that commonly come with age lead to self-hatred*
*This self-hatred is then directed at minority groups, psychologists claim*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...acist-Prejudices-grow-feel-anxious-death.html  (interesting source!)
		
Click to expand...

The second point says some..... So are we going back to generalisations again. Funny how its OK for some sides of an argument to like/believe certain generalisations/stereotypes.... 

I'd argue that older people would have more left wing views because of how they were raised. Not because they suddenly blame foreigners for death....


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			People who experience a black on white race fuelled incident, then use that to declare that the issue “goes both ways” are the same people who look out of the window in May, see that it’s snowing and claim that this proves Climate change is a myth. 

One is a symptom, the other is a disease.
		
Click to expand...

So a black person calling a white bloke a cracker is different from a white person calling a black the "n" word?


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## DRW (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Nope
Yup

Who said that one wasn’t real?

The first is a personal experience, extrapolated out to form a viewpoint of an entire group.
The second is an actual systemic problem.
		
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Think I will agree to disagree, both sides have major issues.

And almost dismissing one sides concerns aren't going to get this debate or the problem solved.

All sides need to be honest and upfront with each other EDIT and look to move forward rather than backwards at things that can not be undone


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			So a black person calling a white bloke a cracker is different from a white person calling a black the "n" word?
		
Click to expand...

The fact that you dare not type the n word probably answers your question.


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The fact that you dare not type the n word probably answers your question.
		
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Do you know what. After I wrote that I thought what a sad state of affairs. it's OK to possibly cause offence to white person with a racist term but didn't dare use the "n" word incase I was caused offence elsewhere


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Do you know what. After I wrote that I thought what a sad state of affairs. it's OK to possibly cause offence to white person with a racist term but didn't dare use the "n" word incase I was caused offence elsewhere
		
Click to expand...

The yoghurt knitters will tell you we just after take it on the chin, after donning sack cloth and ashes of course.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The fact that you dare not type the n word probably answers your question.
		
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 If he typed it he would probably get a warning.


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			yoghurt knitters
		
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Had to Google. 

Made me chuckle.

Cheers Brian 😂


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			Do you know what. After I wrote that I thought what a sad state of affairs. it's OK to possibly cause offence to white person with a racist term but didn't dare use the "n" word incase I was caused offence elsewhere
		
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Words have meanings, both current and historical, when used in certain contexts.  Some swear words are stronger than others, some descriptions of people based on their colour are stronger than others, again based on context and historical 'baggage' for want of a better word . Therefore some will cause more offense than others.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			So a black person calling a white bloke a cracker is different from a white person calling a black the "n" word?
		
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What even is a cracker? Never heard of it being used as a derogatory term for a white person.


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## Traminator (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well it appears now that Francis Drake is on the "black" list. I suspect they will need more people than were in Bristol if they fancy their chances in Plymouth. Interesting times.
		
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Jeepers 😳
Not just his statue(s), Drake's Island (an actual island 🏝), Drake's Circus shopping centre, HMS DRAKE Naval establishment.... The place is Drake central.


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Jeepers 😳
Not just his statue(s), Drake's Island (an actual island 🏝), Drake's Circus shopping centre, HMS DRAKE Naval establishment.... The place is Drake central.
		
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Might also be sensible to euthanise all male ducks?


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

Going back to the Robert Milligan Statue, who's annoyed it was ripped down?


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## Traminator (Jun 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Might also be sensible to euthanise all male ducks?
		
Click to expand...

That's just quackers.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Going back to the Robert Milligan Statue, who's annoyed it was ripped down?
		
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Actually it was carefully removed by workmen as opposed to being ripped down by the mob

Never heard of the bloke, but clearly belongs in a museum somewhere where people can be educated about the past mistakes that were taken as normal in days gone by


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Actually it was carefully removed by workmen as opposed to being ripped down by the mob

Never heard of the bloke, but clearly belongs in a museum somewhere where people can be educated about the past mistakes that were taken as normal in days gone by
		
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I've walked past it probably 10000x. Never really knew it was there. I can see why people are annoyed that statues were defaced and ripped down, but how are people annoyed about this?

I see a lot of people posting that we are now erasing history, and using this as an example. I'm not sure if they are aware the statue is 10m in-front of a free museum, with a disturbing "sugar and spice" exhibit showing the crimes against humanity of the slave trade.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I've walked past it probably 10000x. Never really knew it was there. I can see why people are annoyed that statues were defaced and ripped down, but how are people annoyed about this?

I see a lot of people posting that we are now erasing history, and using this as an example. I'm not sure if they are aware the statue is 10m in-front of a free museum, with a disturbing "sugar and spice" exhibit showing the crimes against humanity of the slave trade.
		
Click to expand...

I'm currently fighting a one man battle on another forum on the whole issue of statues. My oppo's are all adamant this is some Orwellian attempt at rewriting history, to change the past. I can't get through to them that a/ the statues are offensive to many b/ history is not being airbrushed, it is moving statues from places of honour and into museums.

Put them in museums, have info about the good and bad that these people did. Let people judge and learn that way. 

My head is really hurting from the banging against a wall that is happening on this 🤕.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			So a black person calling a white bloke a cracker is different from a white person calling a black the "n" word?
		
Click to expand...

 Nope. That isn’t what I’m saying at all. Not in the slightest...
What I’m saying is that taking 1 incident and using it to state that there is a widespread issue is wrong. 

I think there can be very little doubt that America (and to a lesser degree, The UK) has a systemic problem with White on Black Racism. It would be difficult to say that there was a systemic Black on White issue as the White population is the significant majority and controls the levers of power. 

Therefore, the comparison between localised weather and global climate is valid. One is a symptom. The other is a disease. 

For the absolute avoidance of doubt, and I’m not sure why I’m bothering to explain this, every incident of racism is WRONG. However, some are isolated incidents and some are societal problems.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Think I will agree to disagree, both sides have major issues.

And almost dismissing one sides concerns aren't going to get this debate or the problem solved.

All sides need to be honest and upfront with each other EDIT and look to move forward rather than backwards at things that can not be undone
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think we have to agree to disagree. I think we’d probably agree almost entirely. However I think that you may have misinterpreted my post. Maybe my fault. It may not have been as succinct as I thought it was 👍


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I've walked past it probably 10000x. Never really knew it was there. I can see why people are annoyed that statues were defaced and ripped down, but how are people annoyed about this?

I see a lot of people posting that we are now erasing history, and using this as an example. I'm not sure if they are aware *the statue is 10m in-front of a free museum, with a disturbing "sugar and spice" exhibit showing the crimes against humanity of the slave trade.*

Click to expand...

Sounds to me that there is already a perfect place for the statue to be relocated to. Put it into that exhibit with the relevant explanation.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			and breathe ....

the point I was making is that this place is mainly populated by older white males, who as a demographic tend to be more reactionary than society as a whole, so I expect to see those kind of views expressed here. And the usual suspects never fail to deliver.

However, even allowing for this, I found it very poor to see BLM protesters dismissed as "rioters" along with some comments which were frankly racist.
		
Click to expand...

In your opinion. And someone posted on here that they didn't think anyone on here had been called racist. Feel free, I know I'm not and never have been,


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm currently fighting a one man battle on another forum on the whole issue of statues. My oppo's are all adamant this is some Orwellian attempt at rewriting history, to change the past. I can't get through to them that a/ the statues are offensive to many b/ history is not being airbrushed, it is moving statues from places of honour and into museums.

Put them in museums, have info about the good and bad that these people did. Let people judge and learn that way.

My head is really hurting from the banging against a wall that is happening on this 🤕.
		
Click to expand...


Bring back the Jimmy Saville statue I say!


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 10, 2020)

i don’t get what was racist about the incident. Do white people not suffer from the hands of police brutality!? 
Why aren’t they marching against police brutality? 

I’d understand all the commotion if there was clear racism but i haven’t seen or heard it on any video evidence. 

If he was white would most people care? I wouldn’t. A criminal.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Jeepers 😳
Not just his statue(s), Drake's Island (an actual island 🏝), Drake's Circus shopping centre, HMS DRAKE Naval establishment.... The place is Drake central.
		
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Does he not qualify for a yellow card, he did see off the Don's.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sounds to me that there is already a perfect place for the statue to be relocated to. Put it into that exhibit with the relevant explanation.
		
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Excellent suggestion, however I think the offended parties that are saying “put them in a museum” are merely paying lip service and would like them destroyed.


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## Traminator (Jun 10, 2020)

That Cop in the US has a lot to answer for 🤪😅


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## USER1999 (Jun 10, 2020)

I am into putting some statues into museums. However, I am not in the 'replace them with something else' camp. Some of the London Mayors suggestions are just daft. There have been injustices, for sure, but they need rectifying, not a statue. Windrush? Give them citizenship, not a bronze.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			That Cop in the US has a lot to answer for 🤪😅
		
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Along with the mayor of Bristol and his Superintendent


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm currently fighting a one man battle on another forum on the whole issue of statues. My oppo's are all adamant this is some Orwellian attempt at rewriting history, to change the past. I can't get through to them that a/ the statues are offensive to many b/ history is not being airbrushed, it is moving statues from places of honour and into museums.

Put them in museums, have info about the good and bad that these people did. Let people judge and learn that way. 

My head is really hurting from the banging against a wall that is happening on this 🤕.
		
Click to expand...

I do agree with you .
But what about the Roman Empire Colleseaum  and all the things like it around the world.
Will it be frowned upon to visit such sites or will it be treated like German POW camps.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I do agree with you .
But what about the Roman Empire Colleseaum  and all the things like it around the world.
Will it be frowned upon to visit such sites or will it be treated like German POW camps.
		
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Social history must be eleminated. I see the cause have vandalised the statue of Queen Victory in Leeds.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2020)

Don't anyone dare touch our Duke of Wellington in George Square Glasgow.
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/u...ke-of-wellington-statue-got-its-traffic-cone/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I do agree with you .
But what about the Roman Empire Colleseaum  and all the things like it around the world.
Will it be frowned upon to visit such sites or will it be treated like German POW camps.
		
Click to expand...

How about we deal with our own statues/monuments etc without trying to somehow link it to the rest of the world, ie, how about we let the Italians decide on the Coliseum or the Egyptians on the pyramids.


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## Traminator (Jun 10, 2020)

It's getting worse. 
London Zoo has confirmed that the zebras 🦓 are boycotting all music 🎶 by the White Stripes as it's "not  inclusive" 😳


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How about we deal with our own statues/monuments etc without trying to somehow link it to the rest of the world, ie, how about we let the Italians decide on the Coliseum or the Egyptians on the pyramids.
		
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Or, we could recognise that a Statue is usually a tribute to an individual, and a historic site or building is usually not.... 😉


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

Best not go too far back in UK history. The vast majority of workers in Britain 100 or so years ago did not live a life of milk and honey. 200 years ago conditions were pretty horrible!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Or, we could recognise that a Statue is usually a tribute to an individual, and a historic site or building is usually not.... 😉
		
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What did the Romans ever do for us?


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## Traminator (Jun 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Will it be frowned upon to visit such sites or will it be treated like German POW camps.
		
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I believe we also led the way in concentration camps in South Africa 😳


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Along with the mayor of Bristol and his Superintendent
		
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I wish they would take a dislike to the City centre that the Mayor has desicrated, it was such a lovely place and now looks like a sewage treatment works after its multi million update. Hes not popular with Bristolians to put it mildly.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How about we deal with our own statues/monuments etc without trying to somehow link it to the rest of the world, ie, how about we let the Italians decide on the Coliseum or the Egyptians on the pyramids.
		
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Shame people didn’t think like this when they started kicking off over something that a police officer did on the other side of the world.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Or, we could recognise that a Statue is usually a tribute to an individual, and a historic site or building is usually not.... 😉
		
Click to expand...

I guess Bristol's Colston Hall will soon be the Tony Benn Arena.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I do agree with you .
But what about the Roman Empire Colleseaum  and all the things like it around the world.
Will it be frowned upon to visit such sites or will it be treated like German POW camps.
		
Click to expand...

There is a level of complication about this, no doubt. My own, admittedly inconsistent view, is that statues are different to buildings. Add to that I have a timescale cut off, this is where the inconsistency really kicks in 😄. I can rationalise that ancient Rome is a world away from people now. Other historical figures and buildings I can do the same for, pyramids was given as an example. 

Slavers of the era being discussed had an influence on more modern times and that means a statue for them becomes too uncomfortable. 

I accept there are holes in this, it doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny, but it feels wrong where a statue of Boudicca doesn't have the same impact or cause distress to others.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What did the Romans ever do for us? 

Click to expand...

Fwee Bwian!


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## hovis (Jun 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			i don’t get what was racist about the incident. Do white people not suffer from the hands of police brutality!? 
Why aren’t they marching against police brutality? 

I’d understand all the commotion if there was clear racism but i haven’t seen or heard it on any video evidence. 

If he was white would most people care? I wouldn’t. A criminal.
		
Click to expand...

I have to admit, I didn't see any obvious racism in the video footage.  The cop was clearly in the wrong and deserves what he gets.  But was there more to this?  Is it presumed racism?  It looked like straight forward police brutality to me.  Like I said I've not diced deep into this video so forgive me if I've missed something


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a level of complication about this, no doubt. My own, admittedly inconsistent view, is that statues are different to buildings. Add to that I have a timescale cut off, this is where the inconsistency really kicks in 😄. I can rationalise that ancient Rome is a world away from people now. Other historical figures and buildings I can do the same for, pyramids was given as an example.

Slavers of the era being discussed had an influence on more modern times and that means a statue for them becomes too uncomfortable.

I accept there are holes in this, it doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny, but it feels wrong where a statue of Boudicca doesn't have the same impact or cause distress to others.
		
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Bomber Harris...An important part of our history, helped us win the war, National Hero... but bombing civilians!!...A wreath on Nov 11 or into the drink with him?

Not easy is it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Shame people didn’t think like this when they started kicking off over something that a police officer did on the other side of the world.
		
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Millions probably did and didn’t want to get involved in trying to prove they are racist or not, or saying the politically correct/neutral thing on a Golf Forum populated by a majority of white middle/old aged men.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bomber Harris...An important part of our history, helped us win the war, National Hero... but bombing civilians!!...A wreath on Nov 11 or into the drink with him?

Not easy is it?
		
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The bomber command memorial in London was defaced for the cause


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bomber Harris...An important part of our history, helped us win the war, but bombing civilians!!...A wreath on Nov 11 or into the drink with him?

Not easy is it?
		
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Very easy, we were at War and we came together to fight a common enemy.

And again it’s another extreme example that fails.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The bomber command memorial in London was defaced for the cause
		
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As was the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square. Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			As was the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square. Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.
		
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Garbage.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Very easy, we were at War and we came together to fight a common enemy.

And again it’s another extreme example that fails.
		
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Because you are viewing it through a modern lense. Give it a hundred years and he will be getting a flip-flopping.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			As was the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square. Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.
		
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I wonder when XR are gonna come to the party ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Because you are viewing it through a modern lense. Give it a hundred years and he will be getting a flip-flopping.
		
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Mate, you need to step away from the yaxley-lennon/hopkins Facebook pages.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I wonder when XR are gonna come to the party ?
		
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The Leftwaffe are probably organising it already.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bomber Harris...An important part of our history, helped us win the war, National Hero... but bombing civilians!!...A wreath on Nov 11 or into the drink with him?

Not easy is it?
		
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Its attempting to judge history through todays eyes, we cant do that. It is being said that we cannot understand what racism is like if it's not being applied to us personally, surely we cannot truly understand what life was like for people in history if we have not lived it.  History was brutal, life was brutal but we should understand it and learn from it, destroying monuments and burning books may be a symbolic show of protest but in reality what does it change.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, you need to step away from the yaxley-lennon/hopkins Facebook pages.

Click to expand...

I don’t subscribe to any of them nutcases but it a typical response from people from your side of the political spectrum .


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.
		
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Jesus, I'm out.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Mr Gandhi coped it in New York.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Jesus, I'm out.
		
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Do you not think that the protest were high jacked by Antifa types or was all the wanton destruction by genuine protesters?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bomber Harris...An important part of our history, helped us win the war, National Hero... but bombing civilians!!...A wreath on Nov 11 or into the drink with him?

Not easy is it?
		
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Never said it was. I owned up to inconsistencies 😄


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## spongebob59 (Jun 10, 2020)

Can someone tell me what Ant and Dec did ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			As was the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square. Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.
		
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Fade and Die said:



			Do you not think that the protest were high jacked by Antifa types or was all the wanton destruction by genuine protesters?
		
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You’re second post sort of contradicts the first post, doesn’t it?

So was it a genuine protest that was highjacked or an anti-capitalist protest for the work shy?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t subscribe to any of them nutcases but it a typical response from people from your side of the political spectrum .
		
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Touched a nerve precious?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re second post sort of contradicts the first post, doesn’t it?

So was it a genuine protest that was highjacked or an anti-capitalist protest for the work shy?
		
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It does a bit I agree,😬... I think it was taken over by rent-a-mob types (the large majority were peaceful)


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re second post sort of contradicts the first post, doesn’t it?

So was it a genuine protest that was highjacked or an anti-capitalist protest for the work shy?
		
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Just a thought... his second post is a question. How can a question contradict? Sorry, I'll go away again...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Can someone tell me what Ant and Dec did ?
		
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Byker Grove!
I'll get me coat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought... his second post is a question. How can a question contradict? Sorry, I'll go away again...
		
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If it was a general question, I’d sort of agree, but the fact it was in direct response to another poster and he sort of agreed with me, I staying up on my high horse.


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## Wolf (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If it was a general question, I’d sort of agree, but the fact it was in direct response to another poster and he sort of agreed with me, *I staying up on my high horse.*

Click to expand...

More than Kitchener will be doing outside the Barracks if the medway protesters get their way...


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The bomber command memorial in London was defaced for the cause
		
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Never saw that on the news last week, you sure?


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Can someone tell me what Ant and Dec did ?
		
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Blacked up for a few shows back in around 2003 apparently.
It's fine though, they're cheeky Geordie national treasures so nothing to worry about 👀


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			As was the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square. Kind of highlights that the BLM campaign was nothing but an anti-capitalist protest for the work-shy.
		
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That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on here. There have been hundreds if not thousands of peaceful BLM protests around the world, yet because some idiots cause trouble in London, the whole campaign is an anti-capitalist front? 

Incredible.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 10, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270830605031419905


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It wasn't an isolated incident though, was it? Just the latest in a long line of black people murdered by American police.
		
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Sorry but I just can’t see white officers running round looking for innocent black people to kill. 
What about the long line of white people killed in police hands?


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What did the Romans ever do for us? 

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Used us, like others as slaves!

Perhaps we should make a claim.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Used us, like others as slaves!

Perhaps we should make a claim.
		
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Wooooooooooosh


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How about we deal with our own statues/monuments etc without trying to somehow link it to the rest of the world, ie, how about we let the Italians decide on the Coliseum or the Egyptians on the pyramids.
		
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This started in the USA .
It’s spread to us .
The rest of the world is not immune.
The main problem is we haven’t dealt with our statues that’s the main complaint.


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## User20205 (Jun 10, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268258610192277505


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			It does a bit I agree,😬... I think it was taken over by rent-a-mob types (the large majority were peaceful)
		
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This is correct .
Who goes on a peaceful protest with enough rope to pull down a statue.
That was planned beforehand by a minority.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I believe we also led the way in concentration camps in South Africa 😳
		
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Yes I agree.
All empires of the past have a lot of bad history.


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## NWJocko (Jun 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Sorry but I just can’t see white officers running round looking for innocent black people to kill.
What about the long line of white people killed in police hands?
		
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This is the perfect example of the modern day, social media/internet driven position where you can only occupy one extreme point or the other, it’s nonsense  and does my head in never mind stifle proper debate.

Police brutality to people of any race/gender/individual is completely unacceptable and needs to be addressed.

The current issue in the States has highlighted, at this point in time, ”institutionalised racism“ (to bring it back to U.K. vocab post Stephen Lawrence enquiry) against the black population that can’t be tolerated and should be addressed.

That doesn’t mean that people are brushing under the carpet or ignoring sustained issues with other races or that they are equally worthy of the same levels of protection.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s not just the deaths. It’s the enduring pattern that they get away with it.

I’d ask you to open your mind and your heart to this. Question why so many people are outraged and protesting about it. Just maybe there is something wrong here?
		
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I do open my mind, I open it without any emotional bias or prejudice which is why I don’t focus on one race. But I’m not seeing the racism in this instance. I’m seeing police brutality,  which obviously the states have issues with. There’s many instances of both races falling foul of police hands.

So many are protesting and outraged Because it’s in the news, it’s on Twitter, it’s on Facebook. They’ve seen the protests and the black lives matter placards on the media, and believed it was a racist act. The issue they’ve seen then upsets their moral beliefs and then with bias and their mind made up they get all uppity and become socially outrage justice warriors to look good for their friends, to feel better about themselves and throw in a few nice profile pictures,  showing their outrage on their public platforms for a few likes.

Now the last paragraph definitely applies to every white person protesting in the U.K. IMO

If I see racism, I’ll call it racism. But most of the time racism is just an excuse. An excuse for their own personal failings.


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270830605031419905

Click to expand...

Filming their own crime as well
We are two steps from anarchy at this rate where the normalisation of brutality against the police is getting closer for some.


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## Smiffy (Jun 11, 2020)

BBC saying Tiger Woods should be held up as a role model.... 
Errrr I think there are a few that might have a different view. 
🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I do open my mind, I open it without any emotional bias or prejudice which is why I don’t focus on one race. But I’m not seeing the racism in this instance. I’m seeing police brutality,  which obviously the states have issues with. There’s many instances of both races falling foul of police hands.

So many are protesting and outraged Because it’s in the news, it’s on Twitter, it’s on Facebook. They’ve seen the protests and the black lives matter placards on the media, and believed it was a racist act. The issue they’ve seen then upsets their moral beliefs and then with bias and their mind made up they get all uppity and become socially outrage justice warriors to look good for their friends, to feel better about themselves and throw in a few nice profile pictures,  showing their outrage on their public platforms for a few likes.

Now the last paragraph definitely applies to every white person protesting in the U.K. IMO

If I see racism, I’ll call it racism. But most of the time racism is just an excuse. An excuse for their own personal failings.
		
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Then you haven’t opened your mind enough, you are looking at this incident as a one off, maybe you should research as to why this death has sparked such outrage in Minneapolis, the US and then Worldwide.


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## Dando (Jun 11, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Filming their own crime as well
We are two steps from anarchy at this rate where the normalisation of brutality against the police is getting closer for some.
		
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No doubt the MP for Hackney won’t say a word about this incident


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## spongebob59 (Jun 11, 2020)

Dando said:



			No doubt the MP for Hackney won’t say a word about this incident
		
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How brave is the WPC 👏
Glad the guy with the baseball bat didn't get involved.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Dando said:



			No doubt the MP for Hackney won’t say a word about this incident
		
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You have an issue with Diane Abbott, have you thought about asking for help? #everychanceyouget


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Never saw that on the news last week, you sure?
		
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Info sent by a friend who works in London, cannot personally verify it but has the home media haven't published the desecration of Gandhis statue in NY or the film of the London Police Officer badly beaten this week perhaps its not considered newsworthy and doesn't fit the current agenda.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on here. There have been hundreds if not thousands of peaceful BLM protests around the world, yet because some idiots cause trouble in London, the whole campaign is an anti-capitalist front?

Incredible.
		
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Agree but why do the peaceful element not get more involved in stopping these acts.  Only seen a few brave people attempt it while hundreds of others stand around and watch.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This started in the USA .
It’s spread to us .
The rest of the world is not immune.
The main problem is we haven’t dealt with our statues that’s the main complaint.
		
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Just like to point out that the people of Bristol had been asked Democratically if the Colston statue should remain a few years ago and they said yes.


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## oxymoron (Jun 11, 2020)

Look on Netflix , i think its called "The 13th" , its about the 13th amendment i think , quite an eyeopener of a documentary .


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just like to point out that the people of Bristol had been asked Democratically if the Colston statue should remain a few years ago and they said yes.
		
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when was that? I've never seen it mentioned before.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			when was that? I've never seen it mentioned before.
		
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3 or 4 council elections ago.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

therod said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268258610192277505

Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			3 or 4 council elections ago.
		
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Bristol Council have been debating and voting on Colstons statue for years and removing it has never been accepted. It's the same with the Colstan Hall, some on the council have been trying to get its name changed.


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## Dando (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You have an issue with Diane Abbott, have you thought about asking for help? #everychanceyouget
		
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the issue I have with her is that's she racist and therefore wont say a word about this incident.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Dando said:



			the issue I have with her is that's she racist and therefore wont say a word about this incident.
		
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Why should she? Do you expect her to speak up on every incident that happens in the UK?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

I watched Dawn Butler talking about this on the Peston show last night. How on earth did she get as far as she has, she seems incapable of saying anything beyond repeating soundbites.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			when was that? I've never seen it mentioned before.
		
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32* have had a petition up for years for its removal which never attracted more than 100 votes until last week. Don't you think there's a google hunt a statue going on here.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why should she? Do you expect her to speak up on every incident that happens in the UK?
		
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If the attack happened in her constituency wouldn't it have been a good move to come out quickly to condemn the action.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			3 or 4 council elections ago.
		
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how is a council election a democratic vote on whether or not to remove a statue? I'm sure there were far more important things than that in each party's manifesto!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If the attack happened in her constituency wouldn't it have been a good move to come out quickly to condemn the action.
		
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Absolutely, except it didn’t, it happened in Hackney South whose MP is Meg Hillier.

But people see Hackney and use it as an excuse to have a dig at Diane Abbott, hence my question about whether she is expected to speak up about every incident in the UK.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			how is a council election a democratic vote on whether or not to remove a statue? I'm sure there were far more important things than that in each party's manifesto!
		
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Number of times during elections of any kind that a supplementary question has been asked. Could be why they are called local elections, to enable non political issues to be asked.

Our last one had a separate question on cycle ways


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bristol Council have been debating and voting on Colstons statue for years and removing it has never been accepted. It's the same with the Colstan Hall, some on the council have been trying to get its name changed.
		
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In 2017, the Colston Hall fired the starting gun that sent the debate about Edward Colston and Bristol into the mainstream of the city's consciousness, merely by announcing that it was thinking of changing its name.

In the first few months of 2017, the sheer scale of everything named after Colston was brought into the light, and the campaigners, sensing success, went from one to the other, asking the question.
Over the next couple of years, one or two, then three or four, institutions made decisions. The Colston Yard pub changed its name to the Bristol Yard with not much fuss. There was months of consultation and projects working with historians before Colston Primary School changed its name to Cotham Gardens.

Both the pub and the school, and the Colston Hall too, were three of the few things named 'Colston' that weren't connected with the Society of Merchant Venturers - the guild and body that created what critics call the 'Cult of Colston' back in Victorian times.
They were not for budging, and rebuffed calls to consider renaming both Colston's Girls' School and the private Colston's School.
Then, in early 2019, St Mary Redcliffe School announced it had completely changed all the names of its 'houses' into which pupils are streamed, and the one named Colston was being renamed in honour of a black American female mathematician who worked out the equations which took man to the moon.

But still, throughout all this, the statue remained - the most obvious symbol for anyone arriving in the city centre of Bristol for the first time.
Getting it removed completely seemed ambitious. Bristol had elected a man who resigned his membership of the Merchant Venturers to stand for election as an independent, George Ferguson, in 2012, and the statue's presence was off the agenda.
In the days after it was toppled, Mr Ferguson said he regretted not doing anything sooner.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Number of times during elections of any kind that a supplementary question has been asked. Could be why they are called local elections, to enable non political issues to be asked.

Our last one had a separate question on cycle ways
		
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So which election did that happen at, and what was the question? I can't find any mention of it, but am happy to be corrected.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			In 2017, the Colston Hall fired the starting gun that sent the debate about Edward Colston and Bristol into the mainstream of the city's consciousness, merely by announcing that it was thinking of changing its name.

In the first few months of 2017, the sheer scale of everything named after Colston was brought into the light, and the campaigners, sensing success, went from one to the other, asking the question.
Over the next couple of years, one or two, then three or four, institutions made decisions. The Colston Yard pub changed its name to the Bristol Yard with not much fuss. There was months of consultation and projects working with historians before Colston Primary School changed its name to Cotham Gardens.

Both the pub and the school, and the Colston Hall too, were three of the few things named 'Colston' that weren't connected with the Society of Merchant Venturers - the guild and body that created what critics call the 'Cult of Colston' back in Victorian times.
They were not for budging, and rebuffed calls to consider renaming both Colston's Girls' School and the private Colston's School.
Then, in early 2019, St Mary Redcliffe School announced it had completely changed all the names of its 'houses' into which pupils are streamed, and the one named Colston was being renamed in honour of a black American female mathematician who worked out the equations which took man to the moon.

But still, throughout all this, the statue remained - the most obvious symbol for anyone arriving in the city centre of Bristol for the first time.
Getting it removed completely seemed ambitious. Bristol had elected a man who resigned his membership of the Merchant Venturers to stand for election as an independent, George Ferguson, in 2012, and the statue's presence was off the agenda.
In the days after it was toppled, Mr Ferguson said he regretted not doing anything sooner.
		
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Yes, although the council couldnt make a decision to remove the statue.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So which election did that happen at, and what was the question? I can't find any mention of it, but am happy to be corrected.
		
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Neither can I so it seems we are unable to prove it either way.

Do you believe that statues/monuments should be removed without consideration of views of local people.


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## Dando (Jun 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I watched Dawn Butler talking about this on the Peston show last night. How on earth did she get as far as she has, she seems incapable of saying anything beyond repeating soundbites.
		
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was she still doing her nodding dog impression?


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## Val (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Neither can I so it seems we are unable to prove it either way.

Do you believe that statues/monuments should be removed without consideration of views of local people.
		
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I don't believe they should be removed period. They should serve as a memorial of things past and as a reminder of how we have evolved as a nation.

I dread to think what will happen in Glasgow and Edinburgh if the PC brigade let their voices be over heard and the SG pander to them. Many streets and buildings will be renamed, i find this thought not only ridiculous but down right shocking.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just like to point out that the people of Bristol had been asked Democratically if the Colston statue should remain a few years ago and they said yes.
		
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So bringing the statue down is against democracy.
What that says for the population of Bristol is another debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So bringing the statue down is against democracy.
What that says for the population of Bristol is another debate.
		
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It was an act of Vandalism by a minority!
Why tar the population of Bristol.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So bringing the statue down is against democracy.
What that says for the population of Bristol is another debate.
		
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Not sure how you mean that, but it appears the council of Bournemouth and Poole are backtracking and the statue stays allowing for debate by the people who live there and not pandering to mob rule which is the way our society used to work.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It was an act of Vandalism by a minority!
Why tar the population of Bristol.

Click to expand...

Think you read it wrong !
Or my post is not worded correctly.
I meant the population of Bristol voted to keep a statue of a person involved with slavery.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure how you mean that, but it appears the council of Bournemouth and Poole are backtracking and the statue stays allowing for debate by the people who live there and not pandering to mob rule which is the way our society used to work.
		
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See post 514.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So bringing the statue down is against democracy.
What that says for the population of Bristol is another debate.
		
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 It says they will decide what to do with the statue.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So bringing the statue down is against democracy.
What that says for the population of Bristol is another debate.
		
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If you look back, you will see that the guy who posted that has admitted he is unable to provide any evidence of such a vote taking place, so it's safe to assume it never happened.

There was a similar claim last night about the Bomber Command memorial being attacked last week. Again, no-one has been able to provide any evidence when asked, my guess is they are confusing last week's protests with a totally different incident which happened 18 months ago.


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## DanFST (Jun 11, 2020)

Val said:



			I don't believe they should be removed period. They should serve as a memorial of things past and as a reminder of how we have evolved as a nation.
		
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There are no Hitler statues in Germany, have they forgotten about their past? Do you think the Jimmy Saville statues should have stayed up?


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

I’m somewhat surprised that people are so firmly in favour of leaving up controversial statues so that people can learn about our past, whilst simultaneously saying nothing about the 800 libraries that have shut since 2010.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m somewhat surprised that people are so firmly in favour of leaving up controversial statues so that people can learn about our past, whilst simultaneously saying nothing about the 800 libraries that have shut since 2010.
		
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You’re forgetting the forum “rules”......It doesn’t count when the tories do it.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Funny, I thought Muslims were the bogeymen, or was that last month?
		
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Val said:



			I don't believe they should be removed period. They should serve as a memorial of things past and as a reminder of how we have evolved as a nation.

I dread to think what will happen in Glasgow and Edinburgh if the PC brigade let their voices be over heard and the SG pander to them. Many streets and buildings will be renamed, i find this thought not only ridiculous but down right shocking.
		
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I agree. We should use this to make sure we properly see the good and bad in important/ pivital people from our history and context around it - not least to show how societies' values and attitudes have changed and will continue evolving. History is history and properly understanding it is the key to improving the future. Countries and empires did bad things in the past and behaved by different rules and goals - but countries evolved on the back of these people and actions. We cannot change history but it is good to properly understand it and continue changing prejudices and injustices


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			There are no Hitler statues in Germany, have they forgotten about their past? Do you think the Jimmy Saville statues should have stayed up?
		
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It is possible that IF Germany had won the war.
There would be a lot of Hitler statues.
Most of our statues are of people who made a massive contribution to society.
But the use of slave labour to achieve those things has been rightly called into question.
I don’t know what the answer is in regards keeping them or taking them down.
Either way someone will not be happy about the decision.


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## User20205 (Jun 11, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			Look on Netflix , i think its called "The 13th" , its about the 13th amendment i think , quite an eyeopener of a documentary .
		
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I haven’t watched it yet. It would be interesting to see if any on this thread challenge their own views after watching


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## MegaSteve (Jun 11, 2020)

For me memorials/statues are to acknowledge great acts/people in our history... Not sure anything connected to slave labour fits into that category... And, not sure handing over some/all of ill gotten gains to society excuses/pardons you... It's not about stopping/eradicating history it's about taking a more informed/educated review of the past...


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## Val (Jun 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			There are no Hitler statues in Germany, have they forgotten about their past? Do you think the Jimmy Saville statues should have stayed up?
		
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What happens in Germany has nothing to do with us, I couldn't care less who they have statues of.

As for Jimmy Saville, now you are just being stupid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Would anyone admit to being racist on here?

I think I am to a degree, as I’m genuinely not sure how you’d define it, I certainly hold prejudices and some of those are down to experience and age.

Tried to educate myself and I’m certainly more tolerant than many I know and 8 years as an Equality and Diversity Officer certainly opened my eyes.

But I do think some of my views would be described as racist were I don’t see them that way.

Maybe it’s a cultural think.🤷‍♂️


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Would anyone admit to being racist on here?

I think I am to a degree, as I’m genuinely not sure how you’d define it, I certainly hold prejudices and some of those are down to experience and age.

Tried to educate myself and I’m certainly more tolerant than many I know and 8 years as an Equality and Diversity Officer certainly opened my eyes.

But I do think some of my views would be described as racist were I don’t see them that way.

Maybe it’s a cultural think.🤷‍♂️
		
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I certainly am. Was talking about this very thing with the wife last night. Every one of us holds some sort of prejudice.

The difference (to me), is that some people question their own prejudices and try to overcome them (and ensure that they’re not passed down to the next generation), and some don’t.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



*Would anyone admit to being racist on here?*

I think I am to a degree, as I’m genuinely not sure how you’d define it, I certainly hold prejudices and some of those are down to experience and age.

Tried to educate myself and I’m certainly more tolerant than many I know and 8 years as an Equality and Diversity Officer certainly opened my eyes.

But I do think some of my views would be described as racist were I don’t see them that way.

Maybe it’s a cultural think.🤷‍♂️
		
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I can't be as some of my best friends are not white.  Granted that is because they have a tan thanks to all the sunny weather recently, but the point stands.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I certainly am. Was talking about this very thing with the wife last night. Every one of us holds some sort of prejudice.

The difference (to me), is that some people question their own prejudices and try to overcome them (and ensure that they’re not passed down to the next generation), and some don’t.
		
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I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2020)

Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it  was considered perfectly normal at the time ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it  was considered perfectly normal at the time ?
		
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It needs to be discussed, properly and openly, only then can decisions be made.

I read quite a bit a few years ago about Christopher Columbus after discussing it with a Yank friend, in school I learnt about this great Spanish Explorer, the truth about him(some of it his own words) is quite shocking. You wouldn’t change peoples opinions on him in one chat or in one hour, the discussions need time.


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## DRW (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I certainly am. Was talking about this very thing with the wife last night. Every one of us holds some sort of prejudice.

*The difference (to me), is that some people question their own prejudices and try to overcome them (and ensure that they’re not passed down to the next generation), and some don’t*.
		
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Absolutely this , society has changed over the last 40-100 years and we need to change to reflect and help it along. From races mixing, to women working. to large population growth, to childrens roles, sexual relationships, to working practises, technology, religion, everything really.

It must have been a really difficult period for people say 70 plus year olds, the change in society and outlooks in the last 40 years has been massive.

A problem with humans, is we like to create 'gangs or groups or cliques' , which then means people are excluded for X reasons, that X is what is involving and for the better, as colour or race or sex(edited) shouldn't come into the equation.

We all need to adapt and improve for sure and treat everyone the same.


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it  was considered perfectly normal at the time ?
		
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No, it's not right to expunge it. But it's also not right to commemorate it. A statue of an individual is a commemoration or celebration of a life. If that life is later proven to be not worth the commemoration, but still of historical interest, then the statue should be removed and put somewhere that it can be discussed. Maybe a museum.


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.
		
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I think that age and background are vitally important. I'm a child of the 70's. From a Northern Pit/Mill town. There were very, very few ethnic minorities around when I was growing up. When we did encounter someone different, they were a curiosity. I'm still fighting those early prejudices now. I'm still fighting the upbringing that I had on a council estate that was 100% white.


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

*My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.*

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.
		
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Reminds me of my daughter, when she started nursery it was part of a primary school in Walderslade (Medway). She had a friend she played with every day but couldn't for the life of her say his name, so instead she called him her "brown" friend. She was only 4 but got given time out at school for prejudice. I was annoyed at the school for how they reacted because instead of educating her they vilified her as prejudice towards ethnicity and she had no idea what she had done wrong because it was pure childlike innocence, he was her best friend, and because she couldn't pronounce his name she used the only thing she knew to describe him.

We had to sit and talk to her about it help her understand why she couldn't call him that. It took her a while to grasp and was so upset that she thought she may have offended him because it simply hadn't occurred to her that his skin colour mattered or would be seen as a derogatory term because he was her friend and she liked playing with him.

For me racism isn't what we're born with, just like my little girl she just needed education and understanding which  is something we should all be teaching.

So hopefully like you say with each new generation we will educate each other.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No, it's not right to expunge it. But it's also not right to commemorate it. A statue of an individual is a commemoration or celebration of a life. If that life is later proven to be not worth the commemoration, but still of historical interest, then the statue should be removed and put somewhere that it can be discussed. Maybe a museum.
		
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Can it be better discussed in a museum than in the street, who decides the worthiness/ merit  and, taking a balance, if a person did lots of good for his community but a couple of things that subsequently were thought to be wrong should the statue stay or go  - I'm not picking on you by the way, but trying to see generally where the balance lies 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2020)

As an ex scout leader, sad to see the statue of Robert Baden-Powell the founder of the Scout Movement being removed from Poole Quay as a precaution as it could now be a target as some are now claiming allegations of homosexuality and apparent support of Hitler (BP Died in 1941 aged 83 in Kenya) along with criticizing his actions in the Boer War

it was facing Brownsea Island where the first Scout camp took place in 1907 and is a fitting memorial to a man who has left a huge legacy behind

Has this now gone too far?

Are we on the point of just being apologists for everything in our history?

playing devils advocate slightly, but we need an open discussion about all this


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
View attachment 31136

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I expect you have rubbed his toe a few times


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
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Is it because he married a Scouse Girl, something all blokes from Wigan aspire to.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Can it be better discussed in a museum than in the street, who decides the worthiness/ merit  and, taking a balance, if a person did lots of good for his community but a couple of things that subsequently were thought to be wrong should the statue stay or go  - I'm not picking on you by the way, but trying to see generally where the balance lies 👍
		
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There is strong evidence Colston could be connected to as many as 20,000 deaths... Not sure how that can be overlooked...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

We must remember the society at the time when we discuss these statues.

There was a massive divide in Society, but that doesn’t make it right.

Whoever is discussed should be discussed on fact and not hearsay, Baden-Powell for example was invited to meet Hitler via the Leader of the Hitler Youth, but there is no evidence that a meeting ever took place.

We should also not kid ourselves that the behaviour of some was overlooked if they had position and money, which still carries on in some degree today.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
View attachment 31136

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If he had anything to do with Hollands Pies then I would fully understand why a statue was erected


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.


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## USER1999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.
		
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They could rename the cliffs after Nelson Mandela. The Nelson Mandela cliffs of Dover has such a nice ring to it.


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## USER1999 (Jun 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			As an ex scout leader, sad to see the statue of Robert Baden-Powell the founder of the Scout Movement being removed from Poole Quay as a precaution as it could now be a target as some are now claiming allegations of homosexuality and apparent support of Hitler (BP Died in 1941 aged 83 in Kenya) along with criticizing his actions in the Boer War

it was facing Brownsea Island where the first Scout camp took place in 1907 and is a fitting memorial to a man who has left a huge legacy behind

Has this now gone too far?

Are we on the point of just being apologists for everything in our history?

playing devils advocate slightly, but we need an open discussion about all this
		
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Why is his statue not on Brownsea Island? It would make more sense than Poole harbour.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2020)

it may well go there now as it should be safe there, or Gilwell Park

Not that many people go there, so the Quay, where it would get seen by more was considered the better option


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.
		
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Some of the petitions are click-bait imo, even as mentioned in the random irritations about the racist complaint over the track’n’trace trial on the Isle of Wight, when you look in to it, it’s one MP asking questions, making a statement and it should simply be scrolled past and ignored.


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Some of the petitions are click-bait imo, even as mentioned in the random irritations about the racist complaint over the track’n’trace trial on the Isle of Wight, when you look in to it, it’s one MP asking questions, making a statement and it should simply be scrolled past and ignored.
		
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Sadly mate this one is not click bait. The muppets actually set it up and got nearly 100 signatures, can't imagine it'll get much more but its a sad example of people taking things to far.. 

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/anger-over-calls-to-rename-white-cliffs-228573/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly mate this one is not click bait. The muppets actually set it up and got nearly 100 signatures, can't imagine it'll get much more but its a sad example of people taking things to far..

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/anger-over-calls-to-rename-white-cliffs-228573/

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Wonder if Bristolians still refer to top end of Whiteladies Road as Blackboy Hill


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wonder if Bristolians still refer to top end of Whiteladies Road as Blackboy Hill
		
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I would argue that's a very different kettle of fish and in no way similar to the white cliffs of Dover


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly mate this one is not click bait. The muppets actually set it up and got nearly 100 signatures, can't imagine it'll get much more but its a sad example of people taking things to far..

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/anger-over-calls-to-rename-white-cliffs-228573/

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It’s the Change.Org website, a website were anyone can set up a petition.

Me or you could go on there now and publish a petition that says anything we want, ie, “All ex-Royal Marines to be given a £1000.00 ever Christmas” I’m sure we could get more signatures than her.

Let the idiot be ignored.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 11, 2020)

Party politics anyone :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271075607955288064


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s the Change.Org website, a website were anyone can set up a petition.

Me or you could go on there now and publish a petition that says anything we want, ie*, “All ex-Royal Marines to be given a £1000.00 ever Christmas*” I’m sure we could get more signatures than her.

Let the idiot be ignored.
		
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Lets do  that one 😁


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Would anyone admit to being racist on here?

I think I am to a degree, as I’m genuinely not sure how you’d define it, I certainly hold prejudices and some of those are down to experience and age.

Tried to educate myself and I’m certainly more tolerant than many I know and 8 years as an Equality and Diversity Officer certainly opened my eyes.

But I do think some of my views would be described as racist were I don’t see them that way.

Maybe it’s a cultural think.🤷‍♂️
		
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You don't have to admit to it apparently, have a different view and some one will call you one anyway.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2020)

The Beatles should be banned  Penny Lane was named after a slaver and therefore to carry on listening to The Beatles, you're actively encouraging racism. I urge every sane minded individual to join me at 8pm tonight in burning every LP, cassete and CD of said band you have in your possession!

Seriously this is getting out of control - I can see both sides to it. I attended a really peaceful, genuinely inspiring and eye opening BLM gathering a few days ago. The message of justice and celebrating this countries black history was heard loud and clear. I'm absolutely in favour of some of the worst slave traders statues being removed and displayed in museums. They should be replaced with a mixture of more respectable historical figures with an emphasis on BAME culture. It's genuinely disgraceful to see statues of men who played a role in killing thousands of slaves staring out over the country, while we're saying we're not racist.

However we weren't the instigators of the slave trade. We did play a key role in the peak of it but we were also the first superpower to recognise it was wrong and petition for it be to abolished. That decision saved hundreds of thousands of lives. You have to be very careful about applying morality of today, to 300-400 years ago. And if Africa had been a superpower, theres no doubt they wouldn've plundered Spain and Portugal and sold white people as slaves. It's a crime of it's era. While it doesn't make it right, you have to apply context to it. It's a dark chapter of our history and should be remembered as such.

Anyone can see these protests in London especially, have been hijacked by the far left and a violent element in the community. The Police have been under strong orders not to engage, which has been wrong. It's given these factions increased confidence and as a result, we're going to see widescale disorder in London on Saturday. BoJo, Kahn and the Met topbrass have got this badly wrong. You've got the BBC describing a protest as peaceful when 49 Police officers were injured! Throw in Police attacked in the street with gaggles of pondlife on the sides cheering, war memorials vandalised and plans drawn up to damage more....the people committing these crimes are too stupid to realise they're only gonna cost themselves in the medium, and long run as public sympathy vanishes


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Lets do  that one 😁
		
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Only if it's divied up.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			There is strong evidence Colston could be connected to as many as 20,000 deaths... Not sure how that can be overlooked...
		
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I haven't suggested it be overlooked, and I know nothing about Colston, but the statue wasnt erected because of the 20,000 deaths it must have been for positive things he did too and I'm just wondering whether things done in completely differing times merit the judgement based on today's morals ?


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Can it be better discussed in a museum than in the street, who decides the worthiness/ merit  and, taking a balance, if a person did lots of good for his community but a couple of things that subsequently were thought to be wrong should the statue stay or go  - I'm not picking on you by the way, but trying to see generally where the balance lies 👍
		
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It's a tricky question. If a person does a lot of "good", but has a few "wrongs" in his closet, then I'd probably be happy for the statue to stay. However, in my opinion, making a fortune off the slave trade is not something that I can overlook. In much the same way that money made from drug sale is tainted, then money made from the wholesale trade of people is hugely tainted. I do agree that it's a hard balance to strike, and that no one will agree with every decision made, but the Bristol statue in particular is very far from the balancing point in my opinion.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2020)

My take on it is to try not to only view the person through modern eyes and judge them by our present standards, moral and behaviour. If they were evil gits that were clearly seen as such at the time they were alive then we're wrong to honour them and such monuments should only be in museums etc for educational purposes. If, however, their behaviour when alive mirrored the times and were nothing extraordinary, rather the norm, and they went on to have a positive impact (even if just financially on a city) then I'd treat it differently.

If that makes sense...

As for racism. I saw a TV programme about research into Sickle Cell Anaemia and it was shameful how little funding there has been into such an awful disease. If all skin colours were affected by something similar millions would have been spent.


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I expect you have rubbed his toe a few times 

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On an almost weekly basis as a kid mate... I loved rubbing his foot an making a wish.. Just something so wholesome about it..

Watch some toerag dig into his history and find out that he was a pimp who traded heroin on the side!!!!!!


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it because he married a Scouse Girl, something all blokes from Wigan aspire to.

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We marry Yorkshire girls.. Us clever ones do anyway....


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It's a tricky question. If a person does a lot of "good", but has a few "wrongs" in his closet, then I'd probably be happy for the statue to stay. However, in my opinion, making a fortune off the slave trade is not something that I can overlook. In much the same way that money made from drug sale is tainted, then money made from the wholesale trade of people is hugely tainted. I do agree that it's a hard balance to strike, and that no one will agree with every decision made, but the Bristol statue in particular is very far from the balancing point in my opinion.
		
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I see your point. However, he was only doing what was considered normal back in the day and a comparison to the drug trade might be misleading given that drug dealing today is illegal across most of the world and known to be by everyone. I'm absolutely not condoning the slave trade but wonder if someone in years to come decided something being done today that no one would turn a hair to, was later thought awful, would it be acceptable to demonise us retrospectively?


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I see your point. However, he was only doing what was considered normal back in the day and a comparison to the drug trade might be misleading given that drug dealing today is illegal across most of the world and known to be by everyone. I'm absolutely not condoning the slave trade but wonder if someone in years to come decided something being done today that no one would turn a hair to, was later thought awful, would it be acceptable to demonise us retrospectively?
		
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I'm not advocating the demonisation of Slave Traders (although I strongly believe that they knew full well that what they were doing was immoral). I'll let their respective Gods judge them (if you believe in that kind of thing). 

However I am advocating the removal of Statues that commemorate Slave Traders. Those Statues should be taken to a place where people can be taken and taught about history and how we have learned from previous mistakes. How we have moved on as a species (in most cases). I am a firm believer in the notion that History is akin to standing on the shoulders of giants. 

However a Statue should be a beacon of excellence. A rare honour bestowed upon the best of us, so that when we walk past we can be influenced by the better aspects of our own species.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wonder if Bristolians still refer to top end of Whiteladies Road as Blackboy Hill
		
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Blackboy Roundabout Exeter must have a limited shelf life.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

I don’t think it’s correct to judge them against their times, lives were worthless, the gap between have and have nots were unbelievable by any standard, poor people had no say in their lives etc. 

Genuine question, if it was acceptable for men to sleep with 12 year old kids “in their time” would we have the same attitude?

Their times had very little of social conscience and what was right or wrong, just because they did it, doesn’t mean it was ok.

I agree we can’t change it, but we can’t condone some that behaviour and turn a blind eye.

If we are going to remember the past, learn and move forward as a society then we have to be honest about it.


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## DanFST (Jun 11, 2020)

Val said:



			What happens in Germany has nothing to do with us, I couldn't care less who they have statues of.

As for Jimmy Saville, now you are just being stupid.
		
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Oh sorry I'm being stupid, I was just going off this post of yours.



Val said:



*I don't believe they should be removed period*........ i find this thought not only ridiculous but down right shocking.
		
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I can answer seeing as you don't care, They've no statues of Hitler. They have no problem remembering their history. It's almost like there is other ways to learn about the past without having grandiose commemorations of questionable people in a public space.

If I was black, I probably wouldn't be too happy seeing someone placed on a pedestal who potentially killed my family members, and thousands of my own countrymen in order to gain personal wealth.

I'm not attached to, or proud of lumps of metal and marble of men who saw others as sub human, and just wanted money. But i'm just stupid and PC I guess.


(If anyone touches the Greyfriars Bobby statue, heads will roll.)


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wonder if Bristolians still refer to top end of Whiteladies Road as Blackboy Hill
		
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Yes, it's still the same, at the top of Whiteladies Road.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t think it’s correct to judge them against their times, lives were worthless, the gap between have and have nots were unbelievable by any standard, poor people had no say in their lives etc. 

Genuine question, if it was acceptable for men to sleep with 12 year old kids “in their time” would we have the same attitude?

Their times had very little of social conscience and what was right or wrong, just because they did it, doesn’t mean it was ok.

I agree we can’t change it, but we can’t condone some that behaviour and turn a blind eye.

If we are going to remember the past, learn and move forward as a society then we have to be honest about it.
		
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Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

I moved down to Shropshire for work in the mid 80s, the first week, we were taken to a pub called the All Labour in Vain, this was the pub sign







Everyone thought it was hilarious. Looking back, it's pretty cringeworthy.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I haven't suggested it be overlooked, and I know nothing about Colston, but the statue wasnt erected because of the 20,000 deaths it must have been for positive things he did too and I'm just wondering whether things done in completely differing times merit the judgement based on today's morals ?
		
Click to expand...


I agree you can't always judge historical figures using todays values... However, as I noted earlier, with better knowledge of the deeds of those whose histories are now being questioned/challenged perhaps we are in a better position to judge... Believe there is a case, in many cases, for the 'bad' deeds to brought out into the open and not remain swept under the carpet...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.
		
Click to expand...

I have suggested we need an open debate on racism in the UK so we can evaluate exactly what the problem is and to do this we have to look at the facts without emotion.  If we dont then this current campaign will be another short term protest that blows over until the next trigger point happens.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have suggested we need an open debate on racism in the UK so we can evaluate exactly what the problem is and to do this we have to look at the facts without emotion.  If we dont then this current campaign will be another short term protest that blows over until the next trigger point happens.
		
Click to expand...

You can’t seperate people from their emotions, if you want an honest, open debate, then you have to accept some people will have very strong feelings/emotions on the subject.

It’s not down to anyone to tell someone how to feel, debate can be emotional and still respectful.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.
		
Click to expand...

The ports were not solely built on the Slave trade, yes, some benefitted (massively in some cases) more than others, but some were already established trading ports and had nothing to do with the Slave trade.

The reason the debate has been stifled is because it would upset the establishment and it’s easier to ignore it and deny it’s needed rather than deal with it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2020)




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## drdel (Jun 11, 2020)

Its become common place to denounce the UK for its colonial past but many of the people in the old days of 'Keyna', Nigeria etc 'enjoyed' their lives on 'white' farms. Of course, like elsewhere, there were good bosses and tyrants just as there was in the Mills up't North and on the country estates

Many of the citizens of ex-colonial nations aren't doing too well with fraud and corruption widespread. We have to be careful saying we should aplogise for our past; much of what was done may have been with the best intentions of that time

Do not get the idea that I am saying the BLM movement are wrong or not deserving of support but we should not assume that Britain's abroad were all tyrants who did not care. Salvery was wrong and abhorrent but for some their lives were better than they might have been.

Modern day slavery by families bringing young people into their homes as cleaners etc and many a Eastern European is 'traded in today's world

We must not be blinkered in our views and focus - exploitation of *any* human must be called out for the inhumanity that it is.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The ports were not solely built on the Slave trade, yes, some benefitted (massively in some cases) more than others, but some were already established trading ports and had nothing to do with the Slave trade.

The reason the debate has been stifled is because it would upset the establishment and it’s easier to ignore it and deny it’s needed rather than deal with it.
		
Click to expand...

I think your right about the establishment but imo the big problem now will be social media.
Look what’s happening to JK Rowling because she dared to give her opinion.
Death threats , that’s a major problem and it’s a reason a lot of people won’t get involved.


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			However a Statue should be a beacon of excellence. A rare honour bestowed upon the best of us, so that when we walk past we can be influenced by the better aspects of our own species.
		
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As unlikely as it seems, some folk at least seem to agree with you


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2020)




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## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 31151

Click to expand...

All monuments matter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NASCAR to ban the Confederate flag; and the statue of Jefferson Davis - the 1st President of the Confederacy being toppled from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy).

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed?  Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause?  They wished to retain slavery.  Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies and being waved by his supporters at anti-BLM protests - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves.  As Mattis said - Trump is the first PotUS who actively works to divide the country rather than unite it.

So if many in the the USA are looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at public celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NFL to ban the Confederate flag and the statue of the 1st President of the Confederacy being removed from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy). 

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed?  Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause?  They wished to retain slavery.  Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves.  

So if many in the the USA is looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at pub;ic celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.
		
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Did they do it because they wanted to or because they had to because they were worried about the consequence if they didn't.

See many of the younger generation wearing the prints of the flag, Mo, Che and Castro on the clothing, many of the same generation are now on the march. They best watch what they wear in the future.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NASCAR to ban the Confederate flag and the statue of Jefferson Davis - the 1st President of the Confederacy being toppled from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy).

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed?  Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause?  They wished to retain slavery.  Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies and being waved by his supporters at anti-BLM protests - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves.  As Mattis said - Trump is the first PotUS who actively works to divide the country rather than unite it.

So if many in the the USA are looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at public celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.
		
Click to expand...

When has the UK celebrated its slave trade past?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			When has the UK celebrated its slave trade past?
		
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Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'

The comparison with celebrations of the confederacy is simply one of self-examination of what was deemed acceptable in past times but which might not be so appropriate today.  And if the States can look at something as core to US history as the Civil War, then sure as heck we can look at the Slave Trade


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'
		
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I think that statue should have been removed legally but it was erected in the first place due to philanthropy, not to celebrate his economic success. You are stretching that point a tad far imo.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'
		
Click to expand...

And when was it erected? Last week, last month, last year, 10 years ago..................? And when those statues were erected how many turned up to those celebrations, and how many of those knew where the money came from? Were they celebrating the person's involvement in slavery, really?

I'd like to see every statue erected to honour slavers taken down. But I wonder when the last celebration, as you call it, of slavery took place.

Seriously, your link is very tenuous. The guy you refer to did a lot of good with the money he made. That in no way excuses his businesses but I'd argue that the people celebrating the raising of the statue were doing so because of what he gave to the city, not his involvement in slavery.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if it's divied up.
		
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Paul DJ is the biggest divvy going, so would he get more?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/569022853258776/posts/1507921309368921



Something a bit different.


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## User20205 (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Its become common place to denounce the UK for its colonial past but many of the people in the old days of 'Keyna', Nigeria etc 'enjoyed' their lives on 'white' farms. Of course, like elsewhere, there were good bosses and tyrants just as there was in the Mills up't North and on the country estates

Many of the citizens of ex-colonial nations aren't doing too well with fraud and corruption widespread. We have to be careful saying we should aplogise for our past; much of what was done may have been with the best intentions of that time

Do not get the idea that I am saying the BLM movement are wrong or not deserving of support but we should not assume that Britain's abroad were all tyrants who did not care. Salvery was wrong and abhorrent but for some their lives were better than they might have been.

Modern day slavery by families bringing young people into their homes as cleaners etc and many a Eastern European is 'traded in today's world

We must not be blinkered in our views and focus - exploitation of *any* human must be called out for the inhumanity that it is.
		
Click to expand...

The discussion seems to have moved on from BLM but if there was a dislike button I would use it. The first bit is nonsense. 
The Empire wasn’t some altruistic Victorian project, it was a grubby, land grab. Some of the issues (not all) still facing these ex colonies relate back to the imperial pillage. Nations, especially in Africa were arbitrarily formed & borders drawn as lines in a map. This is partly why many of those nations are riven by corruption, nepotism because they’re artificial constructs. There’s talk on this thread of rewriting history, this is the worst example.


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## User20205 (Jun 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that statue should have been removed legally but it was erected in the first place due to philanthropy, not to celebrate his economic success. You are stretching that point a tad far imo.
		
Click to expand...

It was erected because he gave all his cash to the city of Bristol. In the absence of the welfare state, this cash fed & housed the poor. Nothing more complex than a fella who is complicit in killing 17k people spending his cash probably saving a few more


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2020)

therod said:



			It was erected because he gave all his cash to the city of Bristol. In the absence of the welfare state, this cash fed & housed the poor. Nothing more complex than a fella who is complicit in killing 17k people spending his cash probably saving a few more
		
Click to expand...

Not sure that quite balances the scales but I get what you mean.


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## User20205 (Jun 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure that quite balances the scales but I get what you mean.
		
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I don’t either, but it’s shows that these figures are cardboard cut out baddies.


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## Old Skier (Jun 11, 2020)




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## PNWokingham (Jun 11, 2020)

As usual the good in these protests has led to a push from yoghurt-knitters (thanks Brian - had not heard that term before!) and the loonatics have now left the asylum - if Gavin and Stacey has now Gone with the wind, the world has gone nuts and meat eaters better put up the shutters!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...in-Stacey-latest-series-dragged-race-row.html


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## Stuart_C (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			The Beatles should be banned  *Penny Lane was named after a slaver *and therefore to carry on listening to The Beatles, you're actively encouraging racism. I urge every sane minded individual to join me at 8pm tonight in burning every LP, cassete and CD of said band you have in your possession!

Seriously this is getting out of control - I can see both sides to it. I attended a really peaceful, genuinely inspiring and eye opening BLM gathering a few days ago. The message of justice and celebrating this countries black history was heard loud and clear. I'm absolutely in favour of some of the worst slave traders statues being removed and displayed in museums. They should be replaced with a mixture of more respectable historical figures with an emphasis on BAME culture. It's genuinely disgraceful to see statues of men who played a role in killing thousands of slaves staring out over the country, while we're saying we're not racist.

However we weren't the instigators of the slave trade. We did play a key role in the peak of it but we were also the first superpower to recognise it was wrong and petition for it be to abolished. That decision saved hundreds of thousands of lives. You have to be very careful about applying morality of today, to 300-400 years ago. And if Africa had been a superpower, theres no doubt they wouldn've plundered Spain and Portugal and sold white people as slaves. It's a crime of it's era. While it doesn't make it right, you have to apply context to it. It's a dark chapter of our history and should be remembered as such.

Anyone can see these protests in London especially, have been hijacked by the far left and a violent element in the community. The Police have been under strong orders not to engage, which has been wrong. It's given these factions increased confidence and as a result, we're going to see widescale disorder in London on Saturday. BoJo, Kahn and the Met topbrass have got this badly wrong. You've got the BBC describing a protest as peaceful when 49 Police officers were injured! Throw in Police attacked in the street with gaggles of pondlife on the sides cheering, war memorials vandalised and plans drawn up to damage more....the people committing these crimes are too stupid to realise they're only gonna cost themselves in the medium, and long run as public sympathy vanishes 

Click to expand...

It wasn’t.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2020)

Get the beers in. Some chips and dips and whack on Sky News Saturday late afternoon. The battle the media have itched for is going to happen.

And thank Sadiq Khan


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			It wasn’t.
		
Click to expand...

Your whole city was founded on the slave trade mate. If it wasn't you'd be as famous and wealthy as Widnes.

"Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist. James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves."

NEXT.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Your whole city was founded on the slave trade mate. If it wasn't you'd be as famous and wealthy as Widnes.

"Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist. James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves."

NEXT.
		
Click to expand...

You don't need to tell me about the history of my own city. See this link specifically about Penny Lane.



https://theprioryandthecastironshor...med-after-the-slave-merchant-james-penny/amp/


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			It wasn’t.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it named after James Penny, a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves. So it was named after someone involved in slave trade🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit... Just beaten to it by the above posts..


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			You dong need to tell me about the history of my own city. See this link specifically about Penny Lane.

https://theprioryandthecastironshor...med-after-the-slave-merchant-james-penny/amp/

Click to expand...

Your whole city's wealth is gained from the slave trade, mate. Liverpool was a nothing port untill the slave trade exploded. Can't you accept the blame for once, for anything?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Your whole city's wealth is gained from the slave trade, mate. Liverpool was a nothing port untill the slave trade exploded. *Can't you accept the blame for once, for anything?*

Click to expand...

I know it was and that’s not been questioned or denied. I specifically pulled you on the Penny Lane as there’s no  actual evidence of it being named after him. If you read the link you’ll learn something.

What’s that last bit supposed to mean?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Isn't it named after James Penny, a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves. So it was named after someone involved in slave trade🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit... Just beaten to it by the above posts..
		
Click to expand...

Read the link I’ve posted. At the time it’s believed To be named after him, all around that area was countryside.

There’s a suggestion that the bridge was a toll and cost a penny to cross it.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2020)

I've got nothing against Liverpool or Bristol but we have to accept the rise of each city was linked to slavers. I've already said the context of history should be applied and it's nowhere near as bad as the current gaggle of left leaning lunatics are accusing. But to try and deny it just looks really petty. 

Your view point is like saying Colston traded in diamonds, gold and ivory mostly and slaves were unproven.

Liverpool is one of my favourite cities for a night out and I love the place, the people but you can't deny the slavers link. I know it doesn't fit in with the recent anti government and left leaning politics of the city but it's in bricks, mortar and street names.


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Read the link I’ve posted. At the time it’s believed To be named after him, all around that area was countryside.

There’s a suggestion that the bridge was a toll and cost a penny to cross it.
		
Click to expand...

I read it and it disproves nothing, you could argue it also proves nothing but it does confirm one of your own councillors wanted it renamed because of it.


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Can't you accept the blame for once, for anything?
		
Click to expand...

Why would he, or.any of them there scousers, need to accept blame for something that occurred over 100 years ago?

Bizarre statement.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I've got nothing against Liverpool or Bristol but we have to accept the rise of each city was linked to slavers. I've already said the context of history should be applied and it's nowhere near as bad as the current gaggle of left leaning lunatics are accusing. But to try and deny it just looks really petty.

Your view point is like saying Colston traded in diamonds, gold and ivory mostly and slaves were unproven.

Liverpool is one of my favourite cities for a night out and I love the place, *the people but you can't deny the slavers link.* I know it doesn't fit in with the recent anti government and left leaning politics of the city but it's in bricks, mortar and street names.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody has denied any links to slavery, there’s numerous bits in the museum acknowledging the city’s involvement with the slave trade etc.

There’s no evidence it’s named after him, and that’s why I’ve disputed what you posted and i’ve given you a link.

You've still not clarified the meaning of your previous question, although I’ve got an idea the meaning.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Your whole city's wealth is gained from the slave trade, mate. Liverpool was a nothing port untill the slave trade exploded. Can't you accept the blame for once, for anything?
		
Click to expand...

Why should Stu accept blame for the slave trade hundreds of years ago.
That’s really disrespectful.
There is no evidence it was or wasn’t named after Penny!
But if the name fits 2+2=5.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



*Why should Stu accept blame for the slave trade hundreds of years ago.*

Click to expand...

His great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was James Penny. His full name is actually Stu C Penny. 

Can't see any other reason he'd have to accept the blame for it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I read it and it disproves nothing, you could argue it also proves nothing but it does confirm one of your own councillors wanted it renamed because of it.
		
Click to expand...

Councillors are wrong sometimes.
Normally to name a street after somebody there would be a minuted record but it dosnt exist.
I think a bit of proof would be a minimum requirement before changing names .
If it’s proven then fair enough


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## Stuart_C (Jun 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I read it and it disproves nothing, you could argue it also proves nothing but it does confirm one of your own councillors wanted it renamed because of it.
		
Click to expand...

Theres no evidence it was named after him, though i acknowledge there's a possibility it is. But seeing as theres no record's or proof then I'm right😁 

Councillors aren"t the sharpest tools in the box  just look at the those running the country!! 😉

I'm against discarding history, changing names and removing landmarks.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			His great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was James Penny. His full name is actually Stu C Penny. 

Can't see any other reason he'd have to accept the blame for it.
		
Click to expand...

The lawyers are sharpening their pencils.
Any council that wants to change street names with only hearsay as proof will be lining the pockets of said lawyers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2020)

Renaming Penny Lane would end the huge disappointment faced by coach loads of Japanese tourists every day as they arrive, cameras ready, excited to see a wonderful magical place and instead see a run down, neglected street that is badly in need of some TLC 😂. It's in a nice spot, it's a real shame it isn't better than it actually is. 

The port of liverpool grew due to many factors. Slavery was part of that but the importation of food, wood, ores etc from the Caribbean, Africa etc was certainly greater. It played a role, the museum in the city acknowledges that, but it wasn't built on slavery, it was built on trade generally.


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Renaming Penny Lane would end the huge disappointment faced by coach loads of Japanese tourists every day as they arrive, cameras ready, excited to see a wonderful magical place and instead see a run down, neglected street that is badly in need of some TLC 😂.
		
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Haha. Lived around there for 3 years, was always a source of great amusement watching the myth implode!!!


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## Beezerk (Jun 12, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			As usual the good in these protests has led to a push from yoghurt-knitters (thanks Brian - had not heard that term before!) and the loonatics have now left the asylum - if Gavin and Stacey has now Gone with the wind, the world has gone nuts and meat eaters better put up the shutters!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...in-Stacey-latest-series-dragged-race-row.html

Click to expand...

Purely on the basis it's absolute garbage


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2020)

Not allowed to watch the "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers now!!!
How about all the other episodes where that poor little Spanish waiter Manuel got slapped around the head, or got shouted at??? Unfair on Spaniards. Ban the lot...
You couldn't make it up ffs!!!!
The whole world is going stark raving mad.... 😢😢😢😢😢


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## Old Skier (Jun 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Why should Stu accept blame for the slave trade hundreds of years ago.
That’s really disrespectful.
There is no evidence it was or wasn’t named after Penny!
But if the name fits 2+2=5.
		
Click to expand...

Why should any of us be blamed for our past history but politicians are continually being asked to apologise for our past mostly by other politicians. 

Time for everyone to accept history is there for learning, put the statues/monuments away in museums,  the places people go when your on holiday and it's raining.

Keep them out there and do what Glasgow are doing and identifying the past.

Places like Belsen Auswitch and other concentration camps are out there for a reason, nobody wants those camps pulled down and artefacts stored in a museum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Your whole city's wealth is gained from the slave trade, mate. Liverpool was a nothing port untill the slave trade exploded. Can't you accept the blame for once, for anything?
		
Click to expand...

You’re a a very silly person who knows nothing about the history of the City, it was already trading as a Port to the Americas some 50-100 years before the first slave ship sailed from there.

Yes it benefited from the slave trade, but was no way it’s whole wealth was based on it.

And your blame comment is out of order, you know exactly what you’re insinuating.


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## Captainron (Jun 12, 2020)

Asking a scouser or a Bristolian  to apologise for the slave trade is absurd!

Do I have to apologise for apartheid because I’m a white South African?


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## Jimaroid (Jun 12, 2020)

So heartwarming to see a bunch of white male golfers confounding the stereotype in a display of solidarity with fellow human beings.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Asking a scouser or a Bristolian  to apologise for the slave trade is absurd!

Do I have to apologise for apartheid because I’m a white South African?
		
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No, but you should apologise for that bloody horrible South African Red I subjected my palate to last week...


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			Not allowed to watch the "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers now!!!
How about all the other episodes where that poor little Spanish waiter Manuel got slapped around the head, or got shouted at??? Unfair on Spaniards. Ban the lot...
You couldn't make it up ffs!!!!
The whole world is going stark raving mad.... 😢😢😢😢😢
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, I believe it’s been pulled pending a review. It stuff like this that grabs headlines & devalues any valid message. 

On a related note, watched 13th this AM. That’s the kind of info that should be the discussion. The ongoing monetisation of the US justice system and treatment of the ‘resource’ there in.


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why should any of us be blamed for our past history but politicians are continually being asked to apologise for our past mostly by other politicians.

Time for everyone to accept history is there for learning, put the statues/monuments away in museums,  the places people go when your on holiday and it's raining.

Keep them out there and do what Glasgow are doing and identifying the past.

Places like Belsen Auswitch and other concentration camps are out there for a reason, nobody wants those camps pulled down and artefacts stored in a museum.
		
Click to expand...

There’s a subtle difference, statues are a glorification, not sure the same could be said of Auschwitz.
Most rational voices I’ve heard want a discussion about the celebration of historical figures not removal from history. You can’t understand where we are without knowing how we got here


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			There’s a subtle difference, statues are a glorification, not sure the same could be said of Auschwitz.
Most rational voices I’ve heard want a discussion about the celebration of historical figures not removal from history. You can’t understand where we are without knowing how we got here
		
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I agree.
But it’s difficult to discus where to put a statue that’s at the bottom of the harbour.


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## Crazyface (Jun 12, 2020)

It's sad that there are loads of reminders of how bad things were, but these things should not be treated as things that need to be removed. They are our history, which informs us of how our country has developed and become what it is now. A multi cultural place that treats everyone the same. (hopefully). To go around removing and destroying these things would be detriment to our culture and history.


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## Captainron (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No, but you should apologise for that bloody horrible South African Red I subjected my palate to last week...
		
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I bet you finished the bottle though.....


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 12, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			Not allowed to watch the "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers now!!!
How about all the other episodes where that poor little Spanish waiter Manuel got slapped around the head, or got shouted at??? Unfair on Spaniards. Ban the lot...
You couldn't make it up ffs!!!!
The whole world is going stark raving mad.... 😢😢😢😢😢
		
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And ironically it’s the Germans that make Basil out to be the fool, rather than being the victims of his bigoted behaviour, but let’s ban it without fully thinking it through. I give up.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			There’s a subtle difference, statues are a glorification, not sure the same could be said of Auschwitz.
Most rational voices I’ve heard want a discussion about the celebration of historical figures not removal from history. You can’t understand where we are without knowing how we got here
		
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A mob ripping down or defacing statues is not a discussion.


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## Junior (Jun 12, 2020)

It's part of our history.  I think the point what people miss is that its not history that defines us and our generation.   It's how we act and how we treat other people that defines us. 

We need to understand and learn from the past to know what to do in the future.  Be that through statues in the streets, or statues in a museum.  It shouldn't be through statues that have been vandalized and thrown into the water.   

It's our job to educate those who's time is yet to come so that they understand what is right and wrong.  It's wrong to believe that in a civilized society you can get what you want by rioting and vandalism.  In a civilized society you get what you want by having good values and working hard.  I think that today in the UK we have, and are still making progress (we are not be there yet) so that irrespective of color, if you work hard and have good values you can succeed.


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A mob ripping down or defacing statues is not a discussion.
		
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It’s not ‘the’ discussion. It’s a discussion.  Its the narrative we’re being fed.....imo


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## Robster59 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A mob ripping down or defacing statues is not a discussion.
		
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I fear the next set of demonstrations will be dominated by the more militant tendency to cause more damage and totally detract from the message that people are trying to get across.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			I bet you finished the bottle though.....
		
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Of course I did. I’m not an animal.

 I did have to open another bottle of Malbec to rid the taste though...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Asking a scouser or a Bristolian  to apologise for the slave trade is absurd!

Do I have to apologise for apartheid because I’m a white South African?
		
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If a Bristolian did you wouldnt understand him.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No, but you should apologise for that bloody horrible South African Red I subjected my palate to last week...
		
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Dont think many would mourn the demise of Black Tower.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree.
But it’s difficult to discus where to put a statue that’s at the bottom of the harbour.
		
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They have lifted it out now but I get your point. In London they have boxed off statues that have been identified by certain groups so that they can not be attacked this weekend. They can grafitti the box but no more than that. Smart move so that these things can be looked at in a more calm way and removed, if decided, to a more appropriate place. They certainly should not be thrown into any harbour or river.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			So heartwarming to see a bunch of white male golfers confounding the stereotype in a display of solidarity with fellow human beings.
		
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You've obviously never had the shanks.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s not ‘the’ discussion. It’s a discussion.  Its the narrative we’re being fed.....imo
		
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Isnt that the way discussions go, you say this, I say that, someone else says something else.   It's not 'a' narrative were being fed, its 'the ' narrative were being fed, how many people actually think slavery or racism is acceptable. It seems very much to be you either accept the narrative or you're racist, you're white so you cannot understand the problem.  What I would like to hear is someone explaining in non emotional terms what can be done to change things, what exactly is the extent of racism and its causes.   At the moment all I'm hearing are the symptoms.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Isnt that the way discussions go, you say this, I say that, someone else says something else.   It's not 'a' narrative were being fed, its 'the ' narrative were being fed, how many people actually think slavery or racism is acceptable. It seems very much to be you either accept the narrative or you're racist, you're white so you cannot understand the problem.  What I would like to hear is someone explaining in non emotional terms what can be done to change things, what exactly is the extent of racism and its causes.   At the moment all I'm hearing are the symptoms.
		
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If you “understand” the narrative so well that we are being fed, why don’t you explain in non emotional terms what can be done to change things rather than keep on asking others?

Edit: None of us “have the answers” all of us are different, age, life, experience, etc.

Why can’t we just discuss the subject without anyone being right or wrong or anyone taking offence at what’s said? By all means question/challenge or seek clarification on what people say, but to expect “answers” No, not for me!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They have lifted it out now but I get your point. In London they have boxed off statues that have been identified by certain groups so that they can not be attacked this weekend. They can grafitti the box but no more than that. Smart move so that these things can be looked at in a more calm way and removed, if decided, to a more appropriate place. They certainly should not be thrown into any harbour or river.
		
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Yes I saw the lift .
That statue is going to need extensive repair before it goes anywhere.
Who foots the Bill , a council that can’t afford it ,It has priorities more important.
So mob rule has got its way, right or wrongly depends on your point of view.
They should show it as it is, it would be a more powerful message that the establishment never listened .
Or did they and just ignored the protest, hoping it would go away.?
This could happen again as I can’t see a box stopping some of the more militant protesters.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If you “understand” the narrative so well that we are being fed, why don’t you explain in non emotional terms what can be done to change things rather than keep on asking others?

Edit: None of us “have the answers” all of us are different, age, life, experience, etc.

Why can’t we just discuss the subject without anyone being right or wrong or anyone taking offence at what’s said? By all means question/challenge or seek clarification on what people say, but to expect “answers” No, not for me!
		
Click to expand...

Do you think I should have the answers to the world's problems, should the world leaders join this golf forum so I can steer them down the political highways and byways of utopia.   I am talking about the Nation having meaningful investigations into the issues not a bunch of golfers, but I didn't think it that needed explaining.

Anyhow, back onto ignore you go old bean.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think I should have the answers to the world's problems, should the world leaders join this golf forum so I can steer them down the political highways and byways of utopia.   I am talking about the Nation having meaningful investigations into the issues not a bunch of golfers, but I didn't think it that needed explaining.

Anyhow, back onto ignore you go old bean.
		
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You make yourself look childish with the last sentence, obviously you read replies whilst having people on ignore!

You were answering posts in a long list of posts were people on this forum were discussing their thoughts.

I take it you think we should not debate anything on here then as we won’t impact any subject.

Sort of sums up your attitude to a lot of debates.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You make yourself look childish with the last sentence, obviously you read replies whilst having people on ignore!

You were answering posts in a long list of posts were people on this forum were discussing their thoughts.

I take it you think we should not debate anything on here then as we won’t impact any subject.

Sort of sums up your attitude to a lot of debates.
		
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If you bothered to read through the threads you would see I have made a number of comments on what I think needs to happen but if it suits your prejudice to suggest I haven't then crack on.
Unfortundately you get a notification when an ignore posts somthing to you so I just wanted to see what you had commented to my post. Not surprised by its content.  We have been informed not to get involved with each others posts as it just leads to conflict
Why not put me on ignore then we can exist in perfect harmony.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2020)

Sadly, nothing will come of this anytime soon... Apart from some empty meaningless gestures...  
Establishment, as ever, remains deaf and rigid against change...


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm assuming you don't appreciate that its removal has nothing to do with the Germans and "don't mention the war"?

It's all to do with words that would swiftly invite an infraction if I were to use them here. Used during a particularly racist rant by "the major".
		
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I can post up that very scene if anyone would like to see it?

No harm in it, surely?


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why not put me on ignore then we can exist in perfect harmony.
		
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Lol.

I can guess who this might be, but can't see their posts.

What you suggest at the end of your post works perfectly (they deffo have me on ignore) 👍


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I can post up that very scene if anyone would like to see it?

No harm in it, surely?
		
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It’s still on Netflix apparently.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s still on Netflix apparently.
		
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Very possibly. 

For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t agree with taking the whole episode off the air. That scene is troublesome though. I appreciate that the writing of the scene was supposed to have people laughing at the senile old Major and not agreeing with him. But it was a subtle distinction that was missed by many. Much like the Alf Garnett character was written as someone to be pitied for his old fashioned, bigoted ways, but was viewed by many as an honest portrayal of what it meant to be British.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you bothered to read through the threads you would see I have made a number of comments on what I think needs to happen but if it suits your prejudice to suggest I haven't then crack on.
Unfortundately you get a notification when an ignore posts somthing to you so I just wanted to see what you had commented to my post. Not surprised by its content.  We have been informed not to get involved with each others posts as it just leads to conflict
Why not put me on ignore then we can exist in perfect harmony.
		
Click to expand...

As you have said to others, it’s a forum and I will discuss/challenge any posts I like whilst conforming to the rules.

You could of simply answered you were talking about the national debate or the media etc rather than get petty. Many a time you have had a go at the media and told SILH he shouldn’t expect the Government to provide all the answers, so why would I think you were talking on a national level?

I will not put you on ignore as I’m perfectly capable of deciding what posts I respond to. (Again, whilst staying within the rules)

You could always switch notifications off in settings by the way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Lol.

I can guess who this might be, but can't see their posts.

What you suggest at the end of your post works perfectly (they deffo have me on ignore) 👍
		
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If you’re suggesting I have you on ignore, you are very much incorrect.

I also have no idea why you would think that.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If you’re suggesting I have you on ignore, you are very much incorrect.

I also have no idea why you would think that.
		
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I am liking having an increasing number of people on ignore. I often play the game of imagining what they have said to generate some of the replies I do see. Seeing one side of what is obviously a bit of a ding dong between 2 posters is tremendous fun


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am liking having an increasing number of people on ignore. I often play the game of imagining what they have said to generate some of the replies I do see. Seeing one side of what is obviously a bit of a ding dong between 2 posters is tremendous fun 

Click to expand...

But even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

I have 1 person on ignore as I believe he’s a troll who pops in and out to cause trouble, as for everyone else, if I think nothing of what they say, I’ll scroll past.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am liking having an increasing number of people on ignore. I often play the game of imagining what they have said to generate some of the replies I do see. Seeing one side of what is obviously a bit of a ding dong between 2 posters is tremendous fun 

Click to expand...

Yes, I can guess which side


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

I would never put a poster on ignore. It is a public discussion forum and everyone can contribute, It is not mandated the you read all posts.

Relax, the words may offend, annoy, frustrate or amuse you but they will not hurt you.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			I would never put a poster on ignore. It is a public discussion forum and everyone can contribute, It is not mandated the you read all posts.

Relax, the words may offend, annoy, frustrate or amuse you but they will not hurt you.
		
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Agree entirely. I don't want this forum to be an echo chamber of my own beliefs. I like that there are people who do absolutely nothing but post twitter links to various Right Wing opinions. I find it challenging to read other opinions and use them to pressure test my own.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Agree entirely. I don't want this forum to be an echo chamber of my own beliefs. I like that there are people who do absolutely nothing but post twitter links to various Right Wing opinions. I find it challenging to read other opinions and use them to pressure test my own.
		
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Being challenged is good. I have found some of my best and long lasting friends are those with whom I have had the strongest arguments (including physical).


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Being challenged is good. I have found some of my best and long lasting friends are those with whom I have had the strongest arguments (including physical).
		
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Damn. You're making me feel really uncomfortable now as I'm about to agree with you again... I love having friends who take a different viewpoint. Nothing better than a few drinks and a good ding dong about whatever is interesting right now. I can think of nothing worse than being surrounded by nodding dogs who just egg each other on to wilder and wilder viewpoints.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Damn. You're making me feel really uncomfortable now as I'm about to agree with you again... I love having friends who take a different viewpoint. Nothing better than a few drinks and a good ding dong about whatever is interesting right now. I can think of nothing worse than being surrounded by nodding dogs who just egg each other on to wilder and wilder viewpoints.
		
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It wont last


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			I would never put a poster on ignore. It is a public discussion forum and everyone can contribute, It is not mandated the you read all posts.

Relax, the words may offend, annoy, frustrate or amuse you but they will not hurt you.
		
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I kind of agree but on the other hand I'd rather put someone on ignore if all you ever get is arguments and someone always wanting to have the last word. It is tedious to be involved in and also tedious to have to read through. Also purely on a personal level it makes the forum more enjoyable for me as I don't get wound up so much if I don't see some people's posts. I see it as if I would have absolutely no compulsion to talk to someone in real life as they just would bore me senseless, then why should I in pretend life on the internet. Life's too short to me.  More than happy to listen to alternative viewpoints, not that bothered about seeing what I see at times as deliberate trolling.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I kind of agree but on the other hand I'd rather put someone on ignore if all you ever get is arguments and someone always wanting to have the last word. It is tedious to be involved in and also tedious to have to read through. Also purely on a personal level it makes the forum more enjoyable for me as I don't get wound up so much if I don't see some people's posts. I see it as if I would have absolutely no compulsion to talk to someone in real life as they just would bore me senseless, then why should I in pretend life on the internet. Life's too short to me.  More than happy to listen to alternativeviewpoints, not that bothered about seeing what I see at times as deliberate trolling.
		
Click to expand...

I don't like doing it but its an option on the site for a reason. Sometimes you can find theres a poster who is constantly looking to denigrate your posts to a level you either try to ignore it, keep reporting or you get dragged into arguements such that they end up in warnings from the Mods. In this case I've found it better to use the function and try to keep things at arms length. I only have one person on ignore and as a last resort which is a shame.
Anyhow, this is detracting from tne subject matter.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Being challenged is good. I have found some of my best and long lasting friends are those with whom I have had the strongest arguments (including physical).
		
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A “Phisical argument”
That’s a fight isn’t it.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			A “Phisical argument”
That’s a fight isn’t it.
		
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Only if the Ref wasn't looking


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

I have 3 people on ignore. None because their opinions differ to mine.

We would never be friends.

Doesn't make the place an echo chamber.

But works great for me


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I don't think they are going to repair it. It'll be put on display in a museum that will tell the story of Colston, slavery, Bristol, up to and including what happened to the statue and why. Fixing it and removing the graffiti would be erasing our history, wouldn't it?
		
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Yes it would !
It’s a lesson that needs to be learnt.
But how many are going to be damaged like this.?
As it’s costing the councils money to try and protect them.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2020)

Can we move away from “who we have  on ignore” and back to the thread title please 👍


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## patricks148 (Jun 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we move away from “who we have  on ignore” and back to the thread title please 👍
		
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who said that?


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## Robster59 (Jun 12, 2020)

Surely ignoring the problem has got us all to where we are now!


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## Captainron (Jun 12, 2020)

So now Swing Low is in the firing line.


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we move away from “who we have  on ignore” and back to the thread title please 👍
		
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That makes 4


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we move away from “who we have  on ignore” and back to the thread title please 👍
		
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Can we start a separate thread for that or would that be frowned upon?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can we start a separate thread for that or would that be frowned upon? 

Click to expand...

Its been done already
Didn’t end well


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now Swing Low is in the firing line.
		
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It has been previously. I'm pleased to say rugby fans ignored the objections last time and will likely do the same now as well. Especially so as there is no rugby at the moment, the objections are effectively being fired at a blank space. A song is not owned by any one group, anyone can sing it.


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now Swing Low is in the firing line.
		
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Swing low has always been a bit dodgy, IMO.
Think it started because of Chris Oti.


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			Swing low has always been a bit dodgy, IMO.
Think it started because of Chris Oti.
		
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And it’s terrible!!!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 12, 2020)

It's been done then

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271449790816157697


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## Fade and Die (Jun 12, 2020)

Boris absolutely nails it.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271388180193914880


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## USER1999 (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I don't think they are going to repair it. It'll be put on display in a museum that will tell the story of Colston, slavery, Bristol, up to and including what happened to the statue and why. Fixing it and removing the graffiti would be erasing our history, wouldn't it?
		
Click to expand...

So I can vandalise anything, and add grafiti to anything I want to, and it should be left there as it's history? Not sure about that. It would be a pretty ugly, damaged, and painted up world.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			And it’s terrible!!!
		
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Dont know about that, always seemed OK on the rugby tour coach after a good match along with those hand gestures.


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## User20205 (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont know about that, always seemed OK on the rugby tour coach after a good match along with those hand gestures.
		
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Ties around your head, trousers around your ankles 🤣


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			So I can vandalise anything, and add grafiti to anything I want to, and it should be left there as it's history? Not sure about that. It would be a pretty ugly, damaged, and painted up world.
		
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I think Karen was referring,  with either ironic or humourous intent, to the view that statues shouldn't be pulled down by random vigilantes as they can teach us about our past.

Something a black history chap, from that there Liverpool, spoke quite eloquently about on the news last night.


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Daubing a wall with "Kaz woz 'ere" on the other hand is probably not historic. Unless I ever amount to something, which looks less likely every day. Plus only I would use apostrophes in graffiti.
		
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Good grammar elevates ones graffiti!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Daubing a wall with "Kaz woz 'ere" on the other hand is probably not historic. Unless I ever amount to something, which looks less likely every day. *Plus only I would use apostrophes in graffiti.*

Click to expand...




huds1475 said:



*Good grammar elevates ones graffiti!*

Click to expand...

Should that not be "one*'*s graffiti"?


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## USER1999 (Jun 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I know it divides opinion but, like it or not, what happened to that statue was not simple vandalism. Erecting monuments to slavers is history but so is tearing them down.

Daubing a wall with "Kaz woz 'ere" on the other hand is probably not historic. Unless I ever amount to something, which looks less likely every day. Plus only I would use apostrophes in graffiti.
		
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Sure, but what offends someone can only be qualified by them. So if they decide something is offensive, it is, and clearly they can vandalise it as they see fit. Everything is history, after all.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Should that not be "one*'*s graffiti"?
		
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Shouldn't that be 'shouldn't that be'

I'll get me coat!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

therod said:



			Ties around your head, trousers around your ankles 🤣
		
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Jumpers for goal posts.(apologies in advance if the Fast Show is now 'persona non gratis')


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

Jumpers for goal posts.(apologies in advance if the Fast Show is now 'persona non gratis')


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Shouldn't that be 'shouldn't that be'
		
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No.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2020)

Guys
Back on track please


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

I remember looking at this grave in Henbury Church yard in Bristol as a boy. It's the grave of the last slave in the UK named Scippio Africanus on the stone.  It seemed a historic monument to me then and made me reflect on the lives of Black people in the past and how horrible slavery was.  What do we think, should it be left or removed, I think it should stay so people can look at it and reflect as I did.


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## huds1475 (Jun 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Should that not be "one*'*s graffiti"?
		
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LOL. Definitely.

Slowly walks away with tail between legs 😂


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## TheDiablo (Jun 12, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			You'll not likely reply but i agree fully re your second point.

Re the first. I'd know his name if I'd not played golf with him as I'd seen it mentioned on here. As I'd also seen him make mention of his thoughts on "the great unwashed". In his later posts he said nothing else that suggested racism. He may think little of faux protesters. But he's said nothing derogatory to race. But feel free to enjoy the moral high ground you've taken for yourself.
		
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Fair enough. I suppose it must be coincidence that his most recent posts are all derogatory to BAME people (x3) straight after the comments I called out when maybe he might have been a bit more considered. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Whether he admits it or not, for whatever he reason it is my opinion he has a problem with people from a BAME background. 

All surprisingly unchallenged by mods who seem more keen to ensure threads are 'on track' rather than content of posters. 

I get why people wish to jump to defence of those they know. It's the fear of guilt by association. It's also a lot tougher to call out unsavoury behaviour if the person is humanised (i.e. you know them) , hence my comment around first naming, as whether consciously or not that was why you included  his name. From your posts I've read it's clear your values are significantly different 👍🏻


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Fair enough. I suppose it must be coincidence that his most recent posts are all derogatory to BAME people (x3) straight after the comments I called out when maybe he might have been a bit more considered. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Whether he admits it or not, for whatever he reason it is my opinion he has a problem with people from a BAME background.

All surprisingly unchallenged by mods who seem more keen to ensure threads are 'on track' rather than content of posters.

I get why people wish to jump to defence of those they know. It's the fear of guilt by association. It's also a lot tougher to call out unsavoury behaviour if the person is humanised (i.e. you know them) , hence my comment around first naming, as whether consciously or not that was why you included  his name. From your posts I've read it's clear your values are significantly different 👍🏻
		
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If there is a post that you think breaks the forum rules or is distasteful , please use the report feature so we can take a look at it.

It is impossible for the mods to look at every post, so we rely on members to report stuff.

Consequently if nobody bothers to report anything, we assume that everyone is ok with it.

So rather than criticising the mods , feel free to help us out.

As for “back on track”, it’s part of what we do, 10 plus posts on the BLM thread discussing punctuation is off track


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Most of the protesters won’t even know what they’re protesting for.
Just something for them to post on FB.
“Look at me everybody,I’m a good person”


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Most of the protesters won’t even know what they’re protesting for.
Just something for them to post on FB.
“Look at me everybody,I’m a good person”
		
Click to expand...

Really? I would have thought BLM was an incredibly easy cause to understand.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? I would have thought BLM was an incredibly easy cause to understand.
		
Click to expand...

It’s all OTT,triggered by something that happened on the other side of the world.
How many multi millionaire black celebrities are coming out saying that black people don’t get the same chances?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			It’s all OTT,triggered by something that happened on the other side of the world.
How many multi millionaire black celebrities are coming out saying that black people don’t get the same chances?
		
Click to expand...

It's great that black people can have a successful career in music or football (unless they want to manage of course), but that's hardly proof that normal run of the mill black folk don't suffer discrimination, is it?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's great that black people can have a successful career in music or football (unless they want to manage of course), but that's hardly proof that normal run of the mill black folk don't suffer discrimination, is it?
		
Click to expand...

I’m not saying they don’t suffer discrimination,I don’t think it’s as bad in this country as it being made out. 
The protesters are all for BLM,does it not matter that thousands more people could die due to Covid because of them?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now Swing Low is in the firing line.
		
Click to expand...

The full version of GSTQ is more than a bit dodgy as well.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Most of the protesters won’t even know what they’re protesting for.
Just something for them to post on FB.
“Look at me everybody,I’m a good person”
		
Click to expand...


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



View attachment 31189

Click to expand...

Hi I’m Jim,I just like to post pics because I can’t think of anything to say 🥱


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## Captainron (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Hi I’m Jim,I just like to post pics because I can’t think of anything to say 🥱
		
Click to expand...

The picture he posted was a visual of what he is saying and thinking. 

Zero need to be a douche about it.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Wh


Captainron said:



			The picture he posted was a visual of what he is saying and thinking.

Zero need to be a douche about it.
		
Click to expand...

Who asked you?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Anyway shall we get back to posting something relevant?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Wh

Who asked you?
		
Click to expand...

Infantile post of the week


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

That anger you feel towards me is the anger millions have felt and feel every day of their lives based on the colour of their skin, the shape of their nose, the ancestry of their parents and so on.

But "It's just words" so it's no big deal is it?


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## Captainron (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Wh

Who asked you?
		
Click to expand...

Wow! 

Take a moment to look at what you are writing down. Think about how anyone who doesn’t know you reads it and what they might think of you because of it. Not a great look is it?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Anger?
Don’t be a drama queen mate,you really are turning this into something it isn’t.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Wow!

Take a moment to look at what you are writing down. Think about how anyone who doesn’t know you reads it and what they might think of you because of it. Not a great look is it?
		
Click to expand...

 👍🏻


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2020)

Pinseeker
Time to take 5 please


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

I see the press today refer to BLM demonstrators as protestors, activists and supporters. 

Opposition supporters are hooligans and thugs. 

Encouraging divisions like this is not going to help.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the press today refer to BLM demonstrators as protestors, activists and supporters.

Opposition supporters are hooligans and thugs.

Encouraging divisions like this is not going to help.
		
Click to expand...

Which press? 

Sky described them as “protesters” and “counter protesters” the BBC as “left wing” and “right wing” protests.

Surely normal people can see there will be extreme elements on both sides due to the language being used by some on both sides.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the press today refer to BLM demonstrators as protestors, activists and supporters.

Opposition supporters are hooligans and thugs.

Encouraging divisions like this is not going to help.
		
Click to expand...


If by "opposition supporters" you mean Yaxley-Lennon's lot, then "hooligans and thugs "is an accurate description.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 13, 2020)

Some wild young Labour lover is organising a BLM protest on our market place. Interested to see how many turn up. It’s on the 22nd. I imagine the fad will have died down by then.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Some wild young Labour lover is organising a BLM protest on our market place. Interested to see how many turn up. It’s on the 22nd. I imagine the fad will have died down by then.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah they’ll have found something new to post about on FB 😊


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

Absolute scumbags, proper brexit gammons.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271761377317851136


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Absolute scumbags, proper brexit gammons.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271761377317851136

Click to expand...

They’ll have been infiltrated by antifa and the left wing troublemakers.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

I'm confused here are these BLM activists or right wing activisrs, don't wish to offend, just remember ' Activists lifes matter'  😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm confused here are these BLM activists or right wing activisrs, don't wish to offend, just remember ' Activists lifes matter'  😂
		
Click to expand...

Going by the singing of England....England, I’d say it those peace loving right wingers who have gone to defend the Statues.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

I'm not one thinking the police should be armed but I'd give them all a machine gun and obliterate the lot of them. Scum


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm not one thinking the police should be armed but I'd give them all a machine gun and obliterate the lot of them. Scum
		
Click to expand...

Looking forward to the forum police turning up to complain about the social distancing issues that got them worked up last week when the BLM march took place.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271774513831849985


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

As someone has just posted on Twitter:

Police are protecting a statue from people who want to protect it from people who don't seem to be there. 
- Meanwhile the man who stopped us all from having to salute like a Nazi is celebrated by men doing Nazi salutes.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Looking forward to the forum police turning up to complain about the social distancing issues that got them worked up last week when the BLM march took place.
		
Click to expand...

2 wrongs dont make a right. 

I'm all for protesting etc but throwing punches and missiles at the OB is bang out of order. Just like those last week.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			As someone has just posted on Twitter:

Police are protecting a statue from people who want to protect it from people who don't seem to be there.
- Meanwhile the man who stopped us all from having to salute like a Nazi is celebrated by men doing Nazi salutes.
		
Click to expand...

or, more charitably, confused statue enthusiasts are gathering in large numbers today to protect statues from absolutely no one.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Might as well just open everything up now,obviously social distancing as hone out of the window.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



*2 wrongs dont make a right.*

I'm all for protesting etc but throwing punches and missiles at the OB is bang out of order. Just like those last week.
		
Click to expand...

Easier just to shoot them all eh!


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

I’m confused. What do we call these anti-fascist counter protestors? Seems like there should be a word for it?

All I could think of was Tummy Rubbers but surely there’s something snappier.


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## Imurg (Jun 13, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			I’m confused. What do we call these anti-fascist counter protestors? Seems like there should be a word for it?

All I could think of was Tummy Rubbers but surely there’s something snappier.
		
Click to expand...

Idiots...?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Probably just football thugs who've had nothing to do since the season wasr shut down, hence their tendency to try and pick a fight with the police, like any other Saturday.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The ones honouring Churchill with the nazi salutes?

Are they actually protesting something or just looking to cause trouble?
		
Click to expand...

Patriots protecting the Statues apparently.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

I'm baffeld by this decision, bizarre


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271749357293846528


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2020)

Maybe we can all agree that anyone violently protesting/rioting over the last week are a disgrace and we condemn them as such.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm baffeld by this decision, bizarre


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271749357293846528

Click to expand...

Why are you baffled? The PL wear poppies on their shirt every season, this is nothing to do with FIFA, just the tory ***** trying to stare up hatred.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Probably just football thugs who've had nothing to do since the season wasr shut down, hence their tendency to try and pick a fight with the police, like any other Saturday.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I thought, a bunch of football hoolies who have been locked down too long. Completely embarrassing disgraceful behaviour, wish the mayor had a water cannon at his disposal 😄


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

If there’s been no Football and we still see the same hooliganism, maybe it’s nothing to do with Football? 🧐

Still struggling to understand what to call an anti-anti-fascist by the way. Idiot feels close but too emotional and lacking linguistic intellect. There must be a word... Oh! How I wish I had a brain.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 13, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			If there’s been no Football and we still see the same hooliganism, maybe it’s nothing to do with Football? 🧐

Still struggling to understand what to call an anti-anti-fascist by the way. Idiot feels close but too emotional and lacking linguistic intellect. There must be a word... Oh! How I wish I had a brain.
		
Click to expand...

I've always thought football was just the stage and cause that united them in group violence. Gives them a natural "enemy" too.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Time for people to realise or admit that extremists and racists don't come in colours. The yobs on parliament square were far outnumbered by reasonable people just like last week.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

The mayor makes a statement (unlike last week)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271795094555951111


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Absolute scumbags, proper brexit gammons.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271761377317851136

Click to expand...

They all look dead hard with them masks on!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Time for people to realise or admit that extremists and racists don't come in colours. The yobs on parliament square were far outnumbered by reasonable people just like last week.
		
Click to expand...

Why were any of them in parliament square though?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Decent read, written on the 10th


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270711803597615111


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What sort of reasonable person attends a counter demo to an anti-racism protest?
		
Click to expand...

So your saying that they wernt reasonable people. Whether we like it or not they had a right to protest. The majority that were in parliament square were actually protesting against the attacks on the statues and monuments in and around the area.

You could ask the same question of both sides as they were illegal gatherings.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The ones honouring Churchill with the nazi salutes?

Are they actually protesting something or just looking to cause trouble?
		
Click to expand...

You know the Answer Kaz.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why were any of them in parliament square though?
		
Click to expand...

The majority were holding a peaceful demonstration according to Sky News.


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

Under Covid law no crowds should be allowed to gather and 'protest'.

If one group assembles then the opposition is an equally valid protest. Two wrongs do not make it right and both groups should be dispersed and/or arrested.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Under Covid law no crowds should be allowed to gather and 'protest'.

If one group assembles then the opposition is an equally valid protest. Two wrongs do not make it right and both groups should be dispersed and/or arrested.
		
Click to expand...

But "Covid law" is down to interpretation.....

I agree with the latter though


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2020)

What an absolutely absurd situation, It is like watching a Monty Python sketch gone wrong.
I don't know whether to laugh at them or despise them.

Are they locals or have they been they bussed in by Farage's pals ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The majority were holding a peaceful demonstration according to Sky News.
		
Click to expand...

No they weren’t, it was allegedly to protect the statues that didn’t need protecting.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 13, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			Not allowed to watch the "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers now!!!
How about all the other episodes where that poor little Spanish waiter Manuel got slapped around the head, or got shouted at??? Unfair on Spaniards. Ban the lot...
You couldn't make it up ffs!!!!
The whole world is going stark raving mad.... 😢😢😢😢😢
		
Click to expand...

Cheer up Smiffy, it's back!!  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53032895


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

Statue Protection Force in action. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271809857507770376


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What an absolutely absurd situation, It is like watching a Monty Python sketch gone wrong.
I don't know whether to laugh at them or despise them.

Are they locals or have they been they bussed in by Farage's pals ?
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Statue Protection Force in action.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271809857507770376

Click to expand...

And stopped by one of their own by the look of it.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No they weren’t, it was allegedly to protect the statues that didn’t need protecting.

Click to expand...

Yep peacefully


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## Stuart_C (Jun 13, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271773237681303553
Thank christ for that. 

#SNE.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271773237681303553
Thank christ for that.

#SNE.
		
Click to expand...

Sooner they open the shops the better then wifey will be back in control


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Words fail me, idiot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271811339913232386


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Words fail me, idiot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271811339913232386

Click to expand...

Sickening.🤯
All white, tattooed and bald, Lazy far right extremists scumbags who wouldn’t know history if it was tattooed on their foreheads.
I would like the press to splash there faces all over the front pages tomorrow. Shame the scum.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Words fail me, idiot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271811339913232386

Click to expand...

Yep, both extremes trying to outdo each other


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## huds1475 (Jun 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			and bald,
		
Click to expand...

As a follically challenged chap I am most offended by this.

Sickening attitude.

😁


----------



## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			As a follically challenged chap I am most offended by this.

Sickening attitude.

😁
		
Click to expand...

I meant no offence to any spam heads out there 😇


----------



## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

I like spam


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## Wolf (Jun 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Sickening.🤯
*All white, tattooed* and bald, Lazy far right extremists scumbags who wouldn’t know history if it was tattooed on their foreheads.
I would like the press to splash there faces all over the front pages tomorrow. Shame the scum.
		
Click to expand...

I'm also offended as that bit in bold is me. Tattooed people matter😉

But agreed disgusting behavior.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm also offended as that bit in bold is me. Tattooed people matter😉

But agreed disgusting behavior.
		
Click to expand...


Much like the BLM sadly highjacked by loons.
These two look alright....




Unless they are Walter Mitty types!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Footage emerging of groups of black male's picking off groups off the protesters today as they left Trafalgar square.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep peacefully
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

All scum, all colour skin, all extremists.

Sad this thread seems to be doing a search to see who can find the biggest scum on both sides.


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## Wolf (Jun 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Much like the BLM sadly highjacked by loons.
These two look alright....

View attachment 31198


Unless they are Walter Mitty types!
		
Click to expand...

No self respecting Bootneck would wear a green lid with that clothing its a blatant disrespect to not dress it appropriately, plus standing that close to a cherry beret bellend in a bomber jacket with their flashes put on without telling them what a knob they look. 

More like they bought them from a surplus store.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Which is why I didn't post it up, it just won't be reported in the news.
Most of the angst In seeing is directed towards the mayor


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



*All scum, all colour skin, all extremists.*

Sad this thread seems to be doing a search to see who can find the biggest scum on both sides.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, saw plenty of Black lads with the FLA today and plenty of White faces when it kicked off at the BLM march. All deserve a boot up the jacksie.


----------



## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No self respecting Bootneck would wear a green lid with that clothing its a blatant disrespect to not dress it appropriately, plus standing that close to a cherry beret bellend in a bomber jacket with their flashes put on without telling them what a knob they look.

More like they bought them from a surplus store.
		
Click to expand...

tbh I suspected as much.👍


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Agreed, saw plenty of Black lads with the FLA today and plenty of White faces when it kicked off at the BLM march. All deserve a boot up the jacksie.
		
Click to expand...

Deserve more than that. Is there an argument to do as the French and other nations do and get water cannons etc out and disperse these crowds. Feel sorry for the police as they are never going to manage crowds of that size and the protesters know that so feel somewhat invincible knowing they can do what they like and the chances of getting charged and arrested are slim. Hopefully CCTV can pinpoint the ringleaders


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Best thing the mayor can do is to shut down all protests in the capital ( which he won't do of course) . I believe protests in other parts of the country are largely peaceful.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What does FLA stand for? Is that the nazi guys?
		
Click to expand...

Football Lads alliance, a right wing group that sometimes watch football.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Best thing the mayor can do is to shut down all protests in the capital ( which he won't do of course) . I believe protests in other parts of the country are largely peaceful.
		
Click to expand...

You can’t put everything on Khan, all protests are currently illegal under the Covid laws, as reiterated today by the Home Secretary, what else can he do if the laws of the land already ban them?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

He's slightly 😉one eyed in his support of one side


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## 4LEX (Jun 13, 2020)

Amazing how 49 Officers were injured last weekend and the media claim it's largely peaceful. Yet the second theres any counter protests and a mere 15 get injured (too many obvs), all the news outlets have CARNAGE, CHAOS, RIOTS by right wing thugs etc. I saw black and asian guys with these so called ring wing extremists on the news  There was an asian guy with Trump 2020 on his shirt telling people if they don't like the UK to go home.......

Sadiq Khan is entirely to blame for the scenes we are witnessing today. He let the violent elements of the BLM protests gain in confidence and run amok, he's stoked tensions all week with failing to deal with the damage to statues and momuments and bottled it by covering them up. His inaction has resulted in essentially vigilantes looking to do the job he wouldn't let the Police do. This clown should resign this evening - a disgrace to his party, London and this country.

A senior BLM figure was on the news this morning inciting anger by demanding Churchill was removed and housed in a museum. Just outrageous. We don't need anymore protests as they're totally irresponsible at the current time and are acting as a magnet for violent elements on both sides. The message has been heard, the longer these goes on the more the message gets diluted.

I had a lot of sympathy and support for the protests at the start but now I really couldn't care less.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			He's slightly 😉one eyed in his support of one side
		
Click to expand...

Are you looking in the mirror while typing that.


----------



## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you looking in the mirror while typing that.

Click to expand...

It would crack 😂.


----------



## Dando (Jun 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm also offended as that bit in bold is me. Tattooed people matter😉

But agreed disgusting behavior.
		
Click to expand...

Same here!


----------



## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

Pity Boris sold his Water Cannon.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271773008504520705
In my town the local war memorial is being protected by certain 'dubious types' as there as a local social media panic that it may be attacked.  Although literally no one from what I can tell has said anything about doing anything to it, and no one has any reason to do anything to it.  People seem to have jumped from a statue in Bristol was taken down so therefore the local war memorial will be attacked. World's gone mad.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271773008504520705
In my town the local war memorial is being protected by certain 'dubious types' as there as a local social media panic that it may be attacked.  Although literally no one from what I can tell has said anything about doing anything to it, and no one has any reason to do anything to it.  People seem to have jumped from a statue in Bristol was taken down so therefore the local war memorial will be attacked. World's gone mad.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, same in my small town. There were a group there today "protecting" it despite the fact that there have been no protests in our town or any suggestions that there could be a problem. It was all completely peaceful but some of the comments about it on our local community Facebook page have been what can only be called "interesting", especially from one woman who's views are certainly right of centre.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Sickening.🤯
All white, tattooed and bald, Lazy far right extremists scumbags who wouldn’t know history if it was tattooed on their foreheads.
I would like the press to splash there faces all over the front pages tomorrow. Shame the scum.
		
Click to expand...

Why is this post acceptable?
White,tattooed & bald??


----------



## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Pity Boris sold his Water Cannon.

Click to expand...

Khan would never had used them anyway


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

How pathetic are these people! Chasing 4 people having a picnic and kicking the glass’s over! No surrender my backside.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271837543395397632


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## patricks148 (Jun 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 31194

Click to expand...

this is the St Valery Vigil at th Inverness war mem for the Highland regiment


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 13, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why is this post acceptable?
White,tattooed & bald??
		
Click to expand...

Because it perfectly depicts those that were shown....


----------



## 4LEX (Jun 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271773008504520705
In my town the local war memorial is being protected by certain 'dubious types' as there as a local social media panic that it may be attacked.  Although literally no one from what I can tell has said anything about doing anything to it, and no one has any reason to do anything to it.  People seem to have jumped from a statue in Bristol was taken down so therefore the local war memorial will be attacked. World's gone mad.
		
Click to expand...

I think it was the defacing of Churchill that stoked the hornets nest, not the tearing down of Colston. And if these idiots were climbing over the cenotaph last weekend, it's not exactly a jump to think more memorials could be targetted especially after a hit list was drawn up by BLM. If you're going to target Churchill, where else would you stop? And I hardly think anyone that plans to attack a memorial is going to give due notice 

It has created a perfect storm. The loony left who have hijacked this unrest to further their own needs, while the far right have fed off the anger and lack of law and order from the Police. It's united rival factions, add in football hooligans, ex servicemen and we've got battle stations drawn. This is it for the summer now. They'll be a riot in London every Saturday and those that travelled to London will turn their own towns into battle grounds with more locals joining in whenever theres a BLM march, in order to "protect" statues, memorials and whatever else.

BLM have to take a portion of the blame. Can any sane minded person explain why you need to march for the same cause, in the same place, 2-3 times a week? It's like Groundhog day. It's doing them or the cause no favours at all. Infact with every indential march, it's doing damage.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 13, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Because it perfectly depicts those that were shown....
		
Click to expand...

All bold & tattooed?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I think it was the defacing of Churchill that stoked the hornets nest, not the tearing down of Colston. And if these idiots were climbing over the cenotaph last weekend, it's not exactly a jump to think more memorials could be targetted especially after a hit list was drawn up by BLM. If you're going to target Churchill, where else would you stop? And I hardly think anyone that plans to attack a memorial is going to give due notice 

It has created a perfect storm. The loony left who have hijacked this unrest to further their own needs, while the far right have fed off the anger and lack of law and order from the Police. It's united rival factions, add in football hooligans, ex servicemen and we've got battle stations drawn. This is it for the summer now. They'll be a riot in London every Saturday and those that travelled to London will turn their own towns into battle grounds with more locals joining in whenever theres a BLM march, in order to "protect" statues, memorials and whatever else.

BLM have to take a portion of the blame. Can any sane minded person explain why you need to march for the same cause, in the same place, 2-3 times a week? It's like Groundhog day. It's doing them or the cause no favours at all. Infact with every indential march, it's doing damage.
		
Click to expand...

Why would anyone want to deface a memorial to the local towns people who died in the war in a town that is over 95% white in the Midlands? To say BLM have it on any hit list is preposterous.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Absolute scumbags, proper brexit gammons.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271761377317851136

Click to expand...

Did you really need to make a comment like that. Are you suggesting people who voted in favour of Brexit are Scumbags and Gammons, because if you are you're condemning rather a large number of the population.  Maybe you could reconsider it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Because it perfectly depicts those that were shown....
		
Click to expand...

The picture that this post is on the guys got a hat on !
How can you tell he’s bald.?


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## PaulS (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Football Lads alliance, a right wing group that sometimes watch football.
		
Click to expand...

No wonder football fans are viewed differently when you’ve got this lot associated with real match going fans.

You know, those fans that attend and follow their team, support local charities and causes including food banks etc.

These “hard cases” come across handy behind a police escort or in groups, I’d like to see how brave they are alone.


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## 4LEX (Jun 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Why would anyone want to deface a memorial to the local towns people who died in the war in a town that is over 95% white in the Midlands? To say BLM have it on any hit list is preposterous.
		
Click to expand...

Nah, no it's not. If Churchill in London is on the list, and so are upto 120 more up and down the country, it's perfectly rational for some people to react to that. Obviously those of us with more of a brain would see common sense but this whole situation has whipped up irrational behaviour. And I never stipulated your local statue or memorial was on said hit list, as I've got no idea where you live. I'm talking generally.

If the Police had done their job properly or been allowed to last weekend, today would simply not have happened.

Theres no unrest around the country, it's in London only. Khan has failed the capital and has lost control. He needs removing ASAP.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The picture that this post is on the guys got a hat on !
How can you tell he’s bald.?
		
Click to expand...

I read it that your typical bald tattooed racist scum bag hasn't a clue about the history.

I didn't read it as though he was saying bald/tattooed makes you a racist scum bag....


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Nah, no it's not. If Churchill in London is on the list, and so are upto 120 more up and down the country, it's perfectly rational for some people to react to that. Obviously those of us with more of a brain would see common sense but this whole situation has whipped up irrational behaviour. And I never stipulated your local statue or memorial was on said hit list, as I've got no idea where you live. I'm talking generally.

*If the Police had done their job properly or been allowed to last weekend, today would simply not have happened.*

Theres no unrest around the country, it's in London only. Khan has failed the capital and has lost control. He needs removing ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really believe the rubbish you post? Thankfully I’ve only noticed your last 12 posts or so.

What did you expect the police to do both last weekend and this?

How can you lay the blame atthe feet of the police when you have known hooligans/EDL types turning up on masse and attcking the police?

Those cretins are lucky they’ve had the opportunity to protest.

The unrest has been initiated from the lack of leadership from this government,


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Do you really believe the rubbish you post? Thankfully I’ve only noticed your last 12 posts or so.

What did you expect the police to do both last weekend and this?

How can you lay the blame atthe feet of the police when you have known hooligans/EDL types turning up on masse and attcking the police?

Those cretins are lucky they’ve had the opportunity to protest.

The unrest has been initiated from the lack of leadership from this government,
		
Click to expand...

Why do you only condemn hooligans from one side of the rioting.
And what has the unrest to do with the UK government, the London Mayor is responsible for Policing.


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How pathetic are these people! Chasing 4 people having a picnic and kicking the glass’s over! No surrender my backside.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271837543395397632

Click to expand...

Horrific, these people don’t give a toss about statues etc, they’re there only to cause problems,

I’m ashamed to be English watching these cowards.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 14, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I read it that your typical bald tattooed racist scum bag hasn't a clue about the history.

I didn't read it as though he was saying bald/tattooed makes you a racist scum bag....
		
Click to expand...

Well played sir


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you only condemn hooligans from one side of the rioting.
		
Click to expand...

Are you really trying to defend these cretins?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Are you really trying to defend these cretins?
		
Click to expand...

No, I think you are. I condemn hooligans of any group, you however seem rather selective.


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## 4LEX (Jun 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Do you really believe the rubbish you post? Thankfully I’ve only noticed your last 12 posts or so.

What did you expect the police to do both last weekend and this?

How can you lay the blame atthe feet of the police when you have known hooligans/EDL types turning up on masse and attcking the police?

Those cretins are lucky they’ve had the opportunity to protest.

The unrest has been initiated from the lack of leadership from this government,
		
Click to expand...

Yes I do and feel free to debate anything with me.

My point, which you're missing. Is if Khan had controlled his Police force last weekend to tackle violent protestors, you'd not have a plethora of violent idiots descending on London. What happen today, has been a direct result of the entire country seeing Police scared to engage, running away and being attacked. 

For all of todays trouble, under 10 officers were injured. Almost FIVE times as many were last weekend. I'll let the facts speak.

The unrest has NOT been initated by the government FFS. It's come from the far left, violent factions in the BLM, Khan being a coward and the media whipping it up for hits. All combined have led to todays events, nothing else.

Yes the EDL, football hooligans and Britain First are total scumbags, we all know that. But the above has breathed new life into a fading scene. This is going to grow each week now unless all protests are banned and Police get really tough, IMO. Images circulate on social media, fuelling the hatred and division.


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I think you are. I condemn hooligans of any group, you however seem rather selective.
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure? I’m certainly getting the vibe you are.

Let me make myself absolutely crystal clear here, I am condemning *ANYONE* who is hell bent on causing  aggravation and assaulting innocent members of the public and police.


I’m condemning all of those Cretins/hooligans who have turned up en masse to “protect the statues“ who have blatantly disregarded said staties and have took it upon themselves to attack innocent people and police officers.

This particular group have turned up for a reason then disregarded the actual reason they’re there for to attack police.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Are you sure? I’m certainly getting the vibe you are.

From reading your posts you come across as that older type of bloke with racist tendencies.

Let me make myself absolutely crystal clear here, I am condemning *ANYONE* who is hell bent on causing  aggravation and assaulting innocent members of the public and police.


I’m condemning all of those Cretins/hooligans who have turned up en masse to “protect the statues“ who have blatantly disregarded said staties and have took it upon themselves to attack innocent people and police officers.

This particular group have turned up for a reason then disregarded the actual reason they’re there for to attack police.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm absolutely sure, your posts expose it. So now you insult me as well, you call me out as an old  racist. Not much point in discussing anything with you as you obviously have no balance in your views.


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Yes I do and feel free to debate anything with me.

My point, which you're missing. *Is if Khan had controlled his Police force last weekend to tackle violent protestors, you'd not have a plethora of violent idiots descending on London.* What happen today, has been a direct result of the entire country seeing Police scared to engage, running away and being attacked.

For all of todays trouble, under 10 officers were injured. Almost FIVE times as many were last weekend. I'll let the facts speak.

The unrest has NOT been initated by the government FFS. It's come from the far left, violent factions in the BLM, Khan being a coward and the media whipping it up for hits. All combined have led to todays events, nothing else.

Yes the EDL, football hooligans and Britain First are total scumbags, we all know that. But the above has breathed new life into a fading scene. *This is going to grow each week now unless all protests are banned and Police get really tough, IMO. Images circulate on social media, fuelling the hatred and division.*

Click to expand...

You’re talking rubbish. Does Khan make all of London policing decisions? And if he does, what experience does he have in policing crowd control? Infact let me answer that, absolutely zero.  

Last week the Same protestors who attacked police were rightly condemned,I saw nobody defending what happened last week. This week is different, it seems.

Under 10 officers injured in the line of duty is still not acceptable, just like the 50 officers who were injured last week. It’s not acceptable. 

So it’s the far left’s fault really?? unbelievable.  Was it the far left attacking police officers today outside parliament sq? No it bloody well wasn’t, and you know it. 

Imagine the uproar had Met police gone in heavy handed last week and this week?

Its Upto the government to do the last bit, it falls at their feet.


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I'm absolutely sure, your posts expose it. So now you insult me as well, you call me out as an old  racist. Not much point in discussing anything with you as you obviously have no balance in your views.
		
Click to expand...

Have i touched a nerve SR?? You can’t handle the truth can you?

No insult just how I see your posts. 

It seems you're very protective of the right and very far right and won’t take any criticism of their behaviour without  a “what about“. 

All very childish....


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## 4LEX (Jun 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			You’re talking rubbish. Does Khan make all of London policing decisions? And if he does, what experience does he have in policing crowd control? Infact let me answer that, absolutely zero. 

Last week the Same protestors who attacked police were rightly condemned,I saw nobody defending what happened last week. This week is different, it seems.

Under 10 officers injured in the line of duty is still not acceptable, just like the 50 officers who were injured last week. It’s not acceptable.

So it’s the far left’s fault really?? unbelievable.  Was it the far left attacking police officers today outside parliament sq? No it bloody well wasn’t, and you know it.

Imagine the uproar had Met police gone in heavy handed last week and this week?

Its Upto the government to do the last bit, it falls at their feet.
		
Click to expand...

Paul, I'm not gonna waste my time lowering my debates to connect with you. I'll say this....

The Met should've gone and smashed some heads last weekend. The cause doesn't matter, once law and order is threatened the Police have to respond. They turned a blind eye under Khans instructions to try and reduce tension. It was a dire call and led to 49 officers being injured and numerous attacks on the Police during the week. It led to anger and hundreds of idiots turning up to cause trouble today. If you can't see then I hope you find your other eye soon.

He then covered up the Churchill statue which is a serious affront to the entire country. End of story. How weak do you have to be as a mayor of one of the most multicultural and forward thinking cities in the world, to have to do that? He's lost it.


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## PaulS (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Paul, I'm not gonna waste my time lowering my debates to connect with you. I'll say this....

The Met should've gone and smashed some heads last weekend. The cause doesn't matter, once law and order is threatened the Police have to respond. They turned a blind eye under Khans instructions to try and reduce tension. It was a dire call and led to 49 officers being injured and numerous attacks on the Police during the week. It led to anger and hundreds of idiots turning up to cause trouble today_*. If you can't see then I hope you find your other eye soon.*_

He then covered up the Churchill statue which is a serious affront to the entire country. End of story. How weak do you have to be as a mayor of one of the most multicultural and forward thinking cities in the world, to have to do that? He's lost it.
		
Click to expand...

More insults?? You’re on a roll this evening. Well done.


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## Smiffy (Jun 14, 2020)

Don't know if this has been posted before, if so I'll apologise.
I dislike the woman intensely, but she has valid questions....

Content Removed by Mod.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Then team tory need to find a better more capable candidate than Shaun Bailey.... It really is as simple as that...
		
Click to expand...

All the mayor's of London have been poor when you look at it

The best of a bad bunch was ken

Boris was just as much about promoting himself as khan is.. signing off on stupid projects that cost London millions

Claiming success for the "Boris bikes" and the "Boris bus" all ordered by Ken 

Main things that were Boris' were the garden bridge that never got built and night tube which ran at a lost and now could be gone forever 

Khan gets a bad press and half the time it's because of his heritage.. rather than him just being not very good


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## Jimaroid (Jun 14, 2020)

The statue defence league of numpties was whipped into a froth by behaviour seen in Bristol. The mayor of London had nothing to do with that. Except that he’s got brown skin so obviously must be at fault.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Nah, no it's not. If Churchill in London is on the list, and so are upto 120 more up and down the country, it's perfectly rational for some people to react to that. Obviously those of us with more of a brain would see common sense but this whole situation has whipped up irrational behaviour. And I never stipulated your local statue or memorial was on said hit list, as I've got no idea where you live. I'm talking generally.

If the Police had done their job properly or been allowed to last weekend, today would simply not have happened.

Theres no unrest around the country, it's in London only. Khan has failed the capital and has lost control. He needs removing ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

Absolute garbage! Churchill was targeted for his supposed racist views, nothing to do with the War.

Easy to blame Khan! Then explain why he has the support of the majority in London!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you only condemn hooligans from one side of the rioting.
And what has the unrest to do with the UK government, the London Mayor is responsible for Policing.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn’t the London Mayor who cut the Police to the bare bones over the last 10yrs!
All marches were banned, what else can Khan do?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Yes I do and feel free to debate anything with me.

My point, which you're missing. Is if Khan had controlled his Police force last weekend to tackle violent protestors, you'd not have a plethora of violent idiots descending on London. What happen today, has been a direct result of the entire country seeing Police scared to engage, running away and being attacked.

For all of todays trouble, under 10 officers were injured. Almost FIVE times as many were last weekend. I'll let the facts speak.

The unrest has NOT been initated by the government FFS. It's come from the far left, violent factions in the BLM, Khan being a coward and the media whipping it up for hits. All combined have led to todays events, nothing else.

Yes the EDL, football hooligans and Britain First are total scumbags, we all know that. But the above has breathed new life into a fading scene. This is going to grow each week now unless all protests are banned and Police get really tough, IMO. Images circulate on social media, fuelling the hatred and division.
		
Click to expand...

Protests are already banned!
The BLM cancelled their march yesterday, therefore there was ABSOLUTELY no reason for any right wing to turn up.
The right wing claiming they are protecting monuments! Give it a rest, they are saying the Police can’t do their job, the monuments were boarded up? WHY DID THEY TURN UP?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Paul, I'm not gonna waste my time lowering my debates to connect with you. I'll say this....

The Met should've gone and smashed some heads last weekend. The cause doesn't matter, once law and order is threatened the Police have to respond. They turned a blind eye under Khans instructions to try and reduce tension. It was a dire call and led to 49 officers being injured and numerous attacks on the Police during the week. It led to anger and hundreds of idiots turning up to cause trouble today. If you can't see then I hope you find your other eye soon.

He then covered up the Churchill statue which is a serious affront to the entire country. End of story. How weak do you have to be as a mayor of one of the most multicultural and forward thinking cities in the world, to have to do that? He's lost it.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Churchills statue should of covered before? Or is it only a serious affront to the nation when it comes down to colour of skin?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It wasn’t the London Mayor who cut the Police to the bare bones over the last 10yrs!
All marches were banned, what else can Khan do?
		
Click to expand...

Also the fire service cuts (yet labour got the blame for grenfile at the election losing their just won seat)

Tfl cuts

A record of big cuts to the important services 

Whilst spending on a bridge that never happened 

Yet he got voted in to run the country


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Massive thanks and respect to the Police and the rest of the Emergency Services who, once again, are left to face the consequences of our spineless politicians(on all sides), face the danger and pick up the pieces.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

Spot the difference 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269354903543197701

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271904157012758528


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Spot the difference 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269354903543197701

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271904157012758528

Click to expand...

You really know no shame do you?

Scum on both sides and is anything he said incorrect?

Keep pushing your right wing spin.

I’ll ask you the same question that everyone else on the right side of politics keeps ignoring,
Why did the “Statue Patriots” turn up yesterday if the BLM protest was cancelled and the statues were protected?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2020)

Meanwhile in Scotland......…...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271790452149190658


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## drdel (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You really know no shame do you?

Scum on both sides and is anything he said incorrect?

Keep pushing your right wing spin.

I’ll ask you the same question that everyone else on the right side of politics keeps ignoring,
Why did the “Statue Patriots” turn up yesterday if the BLM protest was cancelled and the statues were protected?
		
Click to expand...

BLM protestors did gather.


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## Beezerk (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ll ask you the same question that everyone else on the right side of politics keeps ignoring,
Why did the “Statue Patriots” turn up yesterday if the BLM protest was cancelled and the statues were protected?
		
Click to expand...

I'd just like to state, I'm in no way condoning these thugs, they are mindless bigots, but you must be able to see it from their point of view even if you don't agree with it. The fact the statues have been boarded up must be an affront to them, I imagine that may be part of the reason why they have turned out?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			BLM protestors did gather.
		
Click to expand...

The OFFICIAL march was cancelled, if the idiots on the right would of also cancelled that would of meant only the scum looking for trouble ON BOTH SIDES would be there.
How is that Khan’s fault?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			BLM protestors did gather.
		
Click to expand...


Yes they did...at first I thought they had played a blinder, kept out of trouble whilst a bunch of pi**ed up “wlm” clashed with the police. Sadly it didn’t last and they started targeting individuals, I’ve seen on the internet a guy beaten to a pulp with his eye popped out and another guy have his throat slit. (Lots of witnesses and footage so hopefully arrests will be made)
It's clear that both the blm and veterans protecting the statues got hijacked. (I felt particularly sorry for the old boy with medals on who was clearly there out of respect for Churchill.)

I fear that we're heading towards a race war. There are clearly massively racist people on both sides. 

It's going to take quite a bit of common sense for those in the middle to diffuse it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd just like to state, I'm in no way condoning these thugs, they are mindless bigots, but you must be able to see it from their point of view even if you don't agree with it. The fact the statues have been boarded up must be an affront to them, I imagine that may be part of the reason why they have turned out?
		
Click to expand...

No I don’t see it as an affront, I see it as common sense until the scum, on both sides, calm down, if it was only to protect Winston Churchill, why was Ghandi’s and Mandella’s Statues covered up?

And as by previous attacks on Churchill’s Statue have they not turned up in the past?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes they did...at first I thought they had played a blinder, kept out of trouble whilst a bunch of pi**ed up “wlm” clashed with the police. Sadly it didn’t last and they started targeting individuals, I’ve seen on the internet a guy beaten to a pulp with his eye popped out and another guy have his throat slit. (Lots of witnesses and footage so hopefully arrests will be made)
It's clear that both the blm and veterans protecting the statues got hijacked. (I felt particularly sorry for the old boy with medals on who was clearly there out of respect for Churchill.)

I fear that we're heading towards a race war. There are clearly massively racist people on both sides.

It's going to take quite a bit of common sense for those in the middle to diffuse it.
		
Click to expand...

It’s been proved nobody had their throat slashed, the Police and Ambulance Service have confirmed.


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## Beezerk (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No I don’t see it as an affront, I see it as common sense until the scum, on both sides, calm down, if it was only to protect Winston Churchill, why was Ghandi’s and Mandella’s Statues covered up?

And as by previous attacks on Churchill’s Statue have they not turned up in the past?
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say "you" see it as an affront, I said can you not see that "they" see it as an affront?

Re the 2nd point, they've seen the BLM protests and violence and now they want their turn in the spotlight, I think it's as simple as that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I didn't say "you" see it as an affront, I said can you not see that "they" see it as an affront?

Re the 2nd point, they've seen the BLM protests and violence and now they want their turn in the spotlight, I think it's as simple as that.
		
Click to expand...

I still don’t see how anyone with any modicum of intelligence can see it as an affront.

To me, as a Proud Veteran and who has marched past it on Remembrance Sunday numerous times, I see it as feeding the propaganda and letting the extremists win, the people who disrespected the Cenotaph should be hunted down and charged by the Police. The Cenotaph is a memorial to all those who have died serving this Country regardless of colour and we need to educate people, instead it’s been turned in to a symbol of “white power” by some and I find that distressing.

As for the Churchill Statue, I posted 4 pictures of it being abused in the past, still wrong, but sadly it happens, were was the national outcry against the teachers or brexit supporters when it happened.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You really know no shame do you?

Scum on both sides and is anything he said incorrect?

Keep pushing your right wing spin.

I’ll ask you the same question that everyone else on the right side of politics keeps ignoring,
Why did the “Statue Patriots” turn up yesterday if the BLM protest was cancelled and the statues were protected?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not pushing anything, he wrote what he did and I see an imbalance, others may not.
the first BLM March should have been policed better and maybe this would not have happened as soon, although I suspect it would have done sooner or later.
the police were out in full riot gear yesterday but took a more softly softly approach in the first March imo.
I'd expect all sides of politics to try and stamp this out, we'll have to wait and see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm not pushing anything, he wrote what he did and I see an imbalance, others may not.
the first BLM March should have been policed better and maybe this would not have happened as soon, although I suspect it would have done sooner or later.
the police were out in full riot gear yesterday but took a more softly softly approach in the first March imo.
I'd expect all sides of politics to try and stamp this out, we'll have to wait and see.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe last week they believed it would be peaceful and took a softer approach, this week they’ve learnt their lesson, took no chances and probably learnt through intelligence gathering that some were coming for trouble and prepared themselves.

Surely for the safety of the Officers they are better off being over cautious.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 14, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271879090107224064


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

I’m confused. Yesterday’s and last weekend’s violent protests were both disgusting. 


pauldj42 said:



			Maybe last week they believed it would be peaceful and took a softer approach, this week they’ve learnt their lesson, took no chances and probably learnt through intelligence gathering that some were coming for trouble and prepared themselves.

Surely for the safety of the Officers they are better off being over cautious.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, from the BBC :


But, according to the BBC, yesterday’s “violent London protests” resulted in 6 police officers being injured, while last weekend’s “largely peaceful protests” left 27 police officers injured. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It going to need some serious work to calm all this done, I've seen several tweets where it looks like football grounds are.going to become the breeding ground for the hard right again. I suspect the decision to have BLM on the shirts is all that good an idea, just as well the crowds won't be there....


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## DCB (Jun 14, 2020)

Gents
An emotive subject. Please let's  keep things civil, or, we may need to close the thread for a spell to allow a bit of cooling off time.

Thanks


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I’m confused. Yesterday’s and last weekend’s violent protests were both disgusting.


I agree, from the BBC :


But, according to the BBC, yesterday’s “violent London protests” resulted in 6 police officers being injured, while last weekend’s “largely peaceful protests” left 27 police officers injured. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It going to need some serious work to calm all this done, I've seen several tweets where it looks like football grounds are.going to become the breeding ground for the hard right again. I suspect the decision to have BLM on the shirts is all that good an idea, just as well the crowds won't be there....
		
Click to expand...

You asked why the difference in Policing? 

Last week was an utter disgrace that the Police were obviously unprepared for! 

Why more injuries? Last week they weren’t wearing protective Riot Gear.

This really isn’t a game of one upmanship, violence on all sides and extremism is wrong, it is only you posting from one side though.

As an example, won’t answer him direct as I get false accusations thrown at me, what is the point of post No #841? Who is the guy in the link? What is the point the poster trying to make with that link? No comment added, no context to it?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You asked why the difference in Policing?

Last week was an utter disgrace that the Police were obviously unprepared for!

Why more injuries? Last week they weren’t wearing protective Riot Gear.

This really isn’t a game of one upmanship, violence on all sides and extremism is wrong, it is only you posting from one side though.

As an example, won’t answer him direct as I get false accusations thrown at me, what is the point of post No #841? Who is the guy in the link? What is the point the poster trying to make with that link? No comment added, no context to it?
		
Click to expand...

He's a right-wing political blogger, he also claims BLM are commies.

Mahyar Tousi
@MahyarTousi
Political YouTuber | TalkRadio Contributor | Free Trade Brexiteer | Free Speech, Free Markets, Free People | Small Government |


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 14, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I read it that your typical bald tattooed racist scum bag hasn't a clue about the history.

I didn't read it as though he was saying bald/tattooed makes you a racist scum bag....
		
Click to expand...

I was talking about the picture that the quote was directed at.
He has no tattoos and a hat on but he is white so one out of three isn’t bad.!
What he’s doing is disgusting and he deserves everything he gets if they catch him.
But if you are going to call people white, tattooed and bald racists at least use a photo where all these things are there.
This really is getting out of hand and is just an excuse for violence from sections of both sides.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You asked why the difference in Policing? 

Last week was an utter disgrace that the Police were obviously unprepared for! 

Why more injuries? Last week they weren’t wearing protective Riot Gear.

This really isn’t a game of one upmanship, violence on all sides and extremism is wrong, it is only you posting from one side though.

As an example, won’t answer him direct as I get false accusations thrown at me, what is the point of post No #841? Who is the guy in the link? What is the point the poster trying to make with that link? No comment added, no context to it?
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
I'll give him his dues today as David Lammy gave a well balanced interview today, something I thought I'd never hear, let's hope others take his lead.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was talking about the picture that the quote was directed at.
He has no tattoos and a hat on but he is white so one out of three isn’t bad.!
What he’s doing is disgusting and he deserves everything he gets if they catch him.
But if you are going to call people white, tattooed and bald racists at least use a photo where all these things are there.
This really is getting out of hand and is just an excuse for violence from sections of both sides.
		
Click to expand...

Firstly, since when does wearing a hat stop someome being bald? 

2nd, he didn't say all white, bald, tattoed people are racists. He said all the white tattooed racists are sum. 

As to the discussion, you've seen one photo and thought the whole convo was about that pic. He'd also mentioned typical footy thugs and how it's the same people. 

It was a fair description of the type of people out en mass yesterday. But I'm not gonna spend time arguing semantics as that's not really the point of this thread.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes they did...at first I thought they had played a blinder, kept out of trouble whilst a bunch of pi**ed up “wlm” clashed with the police. Sadly it didn’t last and they started targeting individuals, I’ve seen on the internet a guy beaten to a pulp with his eye popped out and another guy have his throat slit. (Lots of witnesses and footage so hopefully arrests will be made)
It's clear that both the blm and veterans protecting the statues got hijacked. (I felt particularly sorry for the old boy with medals on who was clearly there out of respect for Churchill.)

I fear that we're heading towards a race war. *There are clearly massively racist people on both sides.*

It's going to take quite a bit of common sense for those in the middle to diffuse it.
		
Click to expand...

Mmmm, I think the massive racists tend to be on one side, that's the point.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

Some.good news and I hope something we can agree on, the pillock photographed urinating on the memorial to Pc Palmer has been arrested. 👏👍


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## Fade and Die (Jun 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Mmmm, I think the massive racists tend to be on one side, that's the point.
		
Click to expand...

See that sort of blinkered view is why it’s hard to debate racism in this country.


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## Paperboy (Jun 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Some.good news and I hope something we can agree on, the pillock photographed urinating on the memorial to Pc Palmer has been arrested. 👏👍
		
Click to expand...

I heard he walked in too the police.


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## drdel (Jun 14, 2020)

It is really easy to see how the subject can be distorted. Just look at this thread!

BOTH groups have a significant number who are not interested in debate.

The media seem determined to try to make it sensationalist and one-sided.

I note that ITV are reported to be looking to recruit a black presenter for the morning show.

While l understand their aims is it not unlawful?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 14, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Firstly, since when does wearing a hat stop someome being bald? 

2nd, he didn't say all white, bald, tattoed people are racists. He said all the white tattooed racists are sum. 

As to the discussion, you've seen one photo and thought the whole convo was about that pic. He'd also mentioned typical footy thugs and how it's the same people. 

It was a fair description of the type of people out en mass yesterday. But I'm not gonna spend time arguing semantics as that's not really the point of this thread.
		
Click to expand...

It dosnt but it stops you seeing so only guessing.
All I’m saying if your going to call someone the things in the post at least use a photo that shows those things.
Do you really think I have only seen one photo , really.
He’s given himself up apparently so they should deal with him .


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			From the picture, I think it's possible he's so thick he didn't actually realise what he was doing.
		
Click to expand...

That was my first thought but I was not brave enough to post it.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is really easy to see how the subject can be distorted. Just look at this thread!

BOTH groups have a significant number who are not interested in debate.

The media seem determined to try to make it sensationalist and one-sided.

I note that ITV are reported to be looking to recruit a black presenter for the morning show.

While l understand their aims is it not unlawful?
		
Click to expand...


If he/she replaces Piers Moron, who cares about the legality?


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## huds1475 (Jun 14, 2020)

I believe this is from yesterday, saw it in the Telegraph. Shows not everybody is mental. 




Perhaps also illustrates there's more nuance to this than some people are prepared to concede.


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## Dando (Jun 14, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I believe this is from yesterday, saw it in the Telegraph. Shows not everybody is mental. 

View attachment 31212


Perhaps also illustrates there's more nuance to this than some people are prepared to concede.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt so knob will state that the black guy is kidnapping the white guy!


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## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Some.good news and I hope something we can agree on, the pillock photographed urinating on the memorial to Pc Palmer has been arrested. 👏👍
		
Click to expand...

Now hoping the one from last week shows some sense and hands himself in.


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## Backache (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			From the picture, I think it's possible he's so thick he didn't actually realise what he was doing.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah looked like someone going for a leak in the corner , not the most hygenic thing to do in the middle of a pandemic in the middle of London but probably not in all honesty someone trying to desecrate a memorial stone.


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## patricks148 (Jun 14, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			He's a right-wing political blogger, he also claims BLM are commies.

Mahyar Tousi
@MahyarTousi
Political YouTuber | TalkRadio Contributor | Free Trade Brexiteer | Free Speech, Free Markets, Free People | Small Government |
		
Click to expand...

are you suprised?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 14, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271894102079082502
😂😂


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## drdel (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think the "both siding" is a massive problem. The "debate" is should all people be treated equally and fairly regardless of race. What on earth is there to debate over that? Where the "debate" comes in is that racists seek to deny the obvious truth that POC face systemic discrimination in their lives. There is a massive amount of false equivalence going on trying to equate a mostly peaceful protest movement that spans generations, genders and races to raise awareness of this issue* with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight.*

One symptom of that is as you describe. If the faces presenting on ITV don't reflect the audience why is that? And if they finally have wakened to it why shouldn't they try to address it? You say you understand the aims but ask about legality. Why? It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it.
		
Click to expand...

Usually you make some interesting observations but in this post I believe you have slipped into exactly what I was describing as an issue - polarisation. Why is there a need for this type of statement *"...with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight." *Within the UK we have freedom of expression *IF* indeed they are _racists grandads_ they still have the same rights but neither you or I know what their personal circumstances or reasons for being at the illegal gathering. The main issue is these protest gatherings were all illegal due to the virus present all should be equally condemmed for their actions. To what degree one faction as or was not more peaceful is not proven ; both were breaking the law.

Racism is intollerable and should be identified and eradicated. However, there is a BUT, The 'But' is that there are minorities who have expectations that exceed the norms of society. I have sat on arbitration panels where it is clear the individual's expectations were falsely and way higher that their peers. I have witnessed senior military officers extremely concerned because they have a need to discipline a peronal from a minority group yet they fear the ettnicity issue will take over from the facts. I, as many other managers Im' sure have observed an ethnic candidate promoted by a manager because the 'problem' employee was prone to blame his/her underperformance on being differently. The 'problem' is passed up the organisation to a role well beyond competence  Thiis issue of percieved 'positive discrimmination' gnenerates tensions in society and the workplace just as percieved racism is a barrier to addressing the real issue.

We openly and rightly talk about the assitance and encouragement needed by black kids in rundown areas - I'd venture to say that the Asian, Chinese and white kids in the same area probably suffer much the same deprivation and need help in equal measure.

You state with rereference to a TV company explicity declaring they wish to recruit based on colour the " ...you understand the aims but ask about legality..."; this is eaxactly the twist and inference that I believe needs to ensure  even handedness. The Equalities Commission works hard to eliminate ethnicity based biase. I merely thought I'd shine a light on such statements which are easily judged to be biased by simply changing the 'trying to recuit a *black* presenter' to 'trying to recruit a *white* presenter' .

Lastly you make the asserton "It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it". Your arithmentic is indeed wrong. I belive this sort of debate can be much more productive if we avoid judging and categorising a poster and inferring their stance to be or less moral than ones own - indeed the more we concentrate on the subject rather than rushed personal judgements the better. Few people on the Forum are aquainted and so the background and personal context that generates an individual's view on the world is a presumption (often wrong) , as I said at the beginning - in the UK we enjoy freedom of expression.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm still getting my head around the anti BLM protesters protecting the Winston Churchill statue from absolutely no one whilst giving the Nazi salute.
Did that actually happen. or am I living an a parallel universe.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 14, 2020)

Meanwhile in Glasgow today, anti-anti-racists cause mayhem in George Square by turning up en masse to protect Robert Peel's statue and batter the police.


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## chrisd (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OK, the "racist grandads" line is a cheap dig, probably ill-advised but it amused me. .
		
Click to expand...

Funny Karen?

If I made a cheap dig about the LBGT community (which I wouldn't) but as a grandad I dont feel in any way racist and offended by the suggestion that you need to be a grandad to be racist


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## chrisd (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was clearly a dig at the blokes making trouble not at grandads in general. Sorry if you took offence but you're very wide of the mark.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe so Karen but it goes to show how difficult this issue can become 😁


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Usually you make some interesting observations but in this post I believe you have slipped into exactly what I was describing as an issue - polarisation. Why is there a need for this type of statement *"...with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight." *Within the UK we have freedom of expression *IF* indeed they are _racists grandads_ they still have the same rights but neither you or I know what their personal circumstances or reasons for being at the illegal gathering. The main issue is these protest gatherings were all illegal due to the virus present all should be equally condemmed for their actions. To what degree one faction as or was not more peaceful is not proven ; both were breaking the law.

Racism is intollerable and should be identified and eradicated. However, there is a BUT, The 'But' is that there are minorities who have expectations that exceed the norms of society. I have sat on arbitration panels where it is clear the individual's expectations were falsely and way higher that their peers. I have witnessed senior military officers extremely concerned because they have a need to discipline a peronal from a minority group yet they fear the ettnicity issue will take over from the facts. I, as many other managers Im' sure have observed an ethnic candidate promoted by a manager because the 'problem' employee was prone to blame his/her underperformance on being differently. The 'problem' is passed up the organisation to a role well beyond competence  Thiis issue of percieved 'positive discrimmination' gnenerates tensions in society and the workplace just as percieved racism is a barrier to addressing the real issue.

We openly and rightly talk about the assitance and encouragement needed by black kids in rundown areas - I'd venture to say that the Asian, Chinese and white kids in the same area probably suffer much the same deprivation and need help in equal measure.

You state with rereference to a TV company explicity declaring they wish to recruit based on colour the " ...you understand the aims but ask about legality..."; this is eaxactly the twist and inference that I believe needs to ensure  even handedness. The Equalities Commission works hard to eliminate ethnicity based biase. I merely thought I'd shine a light on such statements which are easily judged to be biased by simply changing the 'trying to recuit a *black* presenter' to 'trying to recruit a *white* presenter' .

Lastly you make the asserton "It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it". Your arithmentic is indeed wrong. I belive this sort of debate can be much more productive if we avoid judging and categorising a poster and inferring their stance to be or less moral than ones own - indeed the more we concentrate on the subject rather than rushed personal judgements the better. Few people on the Forum are aquainted and so the background and personal context that generates an individual's view on the world is a presumption (often wrong) , as I said at the beginning - in the UK we enjoy freedom of expression.
		
Click to expand...

 my issue with all of this venting against ‘positive discrimination’ is that it seems to presume the playing field is level, & any ‘positive’ promotion is an undeserved addition. It’s not it’s a levelling of the playing field!


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Maybe so Karen but it goes to show how difficult this issue can become 😁
		
Click to expand...

Only if you’re looking to deliberately misinterpret Chris. It seemed clear to me. Not saying you are but it’s a tactic often used to deflect


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## chrisd (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			Only if you’re looking to deliberately misinterpret Chris. It seemed clear to me. Not saying you are but it’s a tactic often used to deflect
		
Click to expand...

Not at all Rod, I hadn't read the previous posts


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Not at all Rod, I hadn't read the previous posts
		
Click to expand...

Good job, they were really horrible about you earlier on!!


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## chrisd (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			Good job, they were really horrible about you earlier on!!

Click to expand...

Written in green ??


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Meanwhile in Glasgow today, anti-anti-racists cause mayhem in George Square by turning up en masse to protect Robert Peel's statue and batter the police.
		
Click to expand...

Was it the usual group of 12 who 'cause mayhem' at the Independence marches.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was clearly a dig at the blokes making trouble not at grandads in general. Sorry if you took offence but you're very wide of the mark.
		
Click to expand...

Haha...you have to be careful with the identity politics on here, I described the rioters as bald and tattooed something’s yesterday and a bald fella and a tattooed fella both pulled me up on it. I believe (hope) it was all in jest but you never know!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

Hat tip 👍


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272224908794310656


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## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			my issue with all of this venting against ‘positive discrimination’ is that it seems to presume the playing field is level, & any ‘positive’ promotion is an undeserved addition. It’s not it’s a levelling of the playing field!
		
Click to expand...

It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. *It should be for the best candidate*, *irrespective of any other consideration*.
		
Click to expand...

What about if the best person for the job in the current context, to best represent the diversity in society and a diversity of opinions, is not another version of whatever currently fills up that board/workforce/panel? Is it possible that in some situations the best candidate is seen as someone who represents a specific gender/race or religion?  If the vast majority of us on this forum are well/over represented on boards and positions of 'power' and dare I say have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, can we get upset if there is a deliberate move to change that a bit?


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.
		
Click to expand...

It’s a really clumsy tool, but I’m not sure if there’s a better one. It’s the easiest way to equalise  an equal opportunities policy.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OK, the "racist grandads" line is a cheap dig, probably ill-advised but it amused me. Maybe should have held it in reserve for a more light-hearted post.

As for polarisation - that is where we are I'm afraid. I refuse to "both sides" an issue where the right side is obvious and the wrong so heinous. But I am prepared to have a more nuanced discussion provided I believe people are doing so in good faith.

Hence the last paragraph. I completely agree with you which was why I so carefully worded a point I've tried and failed to make on here for days now. *Which is the extent to which a number of posters on here are critical of BLM without any support or even mention of the issues they are raising does risk a rush to judgement about the motivations of those posters. I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people *protesting about issues they face in their lives that some of us never have and never will have to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

I dont understand where this comes from (highlighted text) , I've not read anywhere someone saying Black Lives Dont Matter, quite the opposite that they do matter. I've read a number of condemnations to those that have used violence where ever it happens but that seems unnaceptable and open for insults.

Something I do find rather concerning is the way a number of posters who challenge discrimination can so easily use it themselves. Suggesting that a 'Grandad' has to be racist, or an older person is racist just because they're older is predujiced and no better IMO, we've also been informed here that the thugs using violence this weekend are typical 'Brexit Gammons'  Cant you see how this type of blinkered pigeonholing is used to belittle and insult in a similar vein to that they so readily condemn. Aparently I'm a racist old man, or so I have been labled  by someone who doesnt know me and cant even give a valid reason for saying it.

Taking your own words Kaz '*I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people'*


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## huds1475 (Jun 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Haha...you have to be careful with the identity politics on here, I described the rioters as bald and tattooed something’s yesterday and a bald fella and a tattooed fella both pulled me up on it. I believe (hope) it was all in jest but you never know!
		
Click to expand...

It was a joke, at the expense of the id politics crew

Hence the big smilie

was hopeful of getting a load of hairy virtue signallers jumping to my defense.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OK, the *"racist grandads*" line is a cheap dig, probably ill-advised but it amused me. Maybe should have held it in reserve for a more light-hearted post.

As for polarisation - that is where we are I'm afraid. I refuse to "both sides" an issue where the right side is obvious and the wrong so heinous. But I am prepared to have a more nuanced discussion provided I believe people are doing so in good faith.

Hence the last paragraph. I completely agree with you which was why I so carefully worded a point I've tried and failed to make on here for days now. Which is the extent to which a number of posters on here are critical of BLM without any support or even mention of the issues they are raising does risk a rush to judgement about the motivations of those posters. I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people protesting about issues they face in their lives that some of us never have and never will have to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

I laughed. But then again as I have a sense of humour and I'm not a racist grandad, maybe I was exhibiting non-racist grandad privilege. It's so confusing nowadays.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s a really clumsy tool, but I’m not sure if there’s a better one. It’s the easiest way to equalise  an equal opportunities policy.
		
Click to expand...

But isnt it racist by definition, it suggests that someone with a particular skin colour is less capable of understanding diversity in society and by excluding people by birth or colour is wrong. Educating the mindset that skin colour and race have no bearing on intelligence or ability has to be the solution and it's the selection panel that need educating first.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately real life hasn’t been like that for years, it was one of the reasons Positive Discrimination was brought in.
Many women, black people etc who were the best candidate were denied the opportunity based on the fact they either a woman or black.


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But isnt it racist by definition, it suggests that someone with a particular skin colour is less capable of understanding diversity in society and by excluding people by birth or colour is wrong. Educating the mindset that skin colour and race have no bearing on intelligence or ability has to be the solution and it's the selection panel that need educating first.
		
Click to expand...

Yep. 100%. Positive short lists, the Rooney rule etc are a really clumsy tool until what you outline happens


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## User20205 (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Aparently I'm a racist old man, or so I have been labled  by someone who doesnt know me and cant even give a valid reason for saying it.

Taking your own words Kaz '*I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people'*

Click to expand...

I saw that & the poster is wrong & I hope they apologise accordingly. If I was forced into a label (which I haven’t been) I’d use *c*onservative


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			Yep. 100%. Positive short lists, the Rooney rule etc are a really clumsy tool until what you outline happens
		
Click to expand...

Having been involved in the NFL for nearly 40 years, I understood why the Rooney rule (named after the former owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers) was brought in but I do not like it nor do many players/coaches/officials in the league.   And I have heard the "why aren't there more black quarterbacks in the league" argument too many times - the simple reply is "how come 98% of the defensive backs are black?"  "Why aren't there more Asian kickers?"   

Minorities find themselves being interviewed just for the box ticking it does before appointing someone else more qualified and suited for the job.   This has happened many times in the NFL in the last 25 years.  When the Cowboys were going to promote Jason Garrett from an interim role several years ago, they had to go through the farce of interviewing another coach who also thought it was a joke, before giving Garrett the role.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This whole disastrous exchange came from an attempt at balance rather than jumping to conclusions about people. There are a number of posters who are only criticising BLM with no indication of whether they oppose racism or not. I'm asking those people if they are posting in good faith to make that a little more apparent if they are actually looking for a discussion.

I haven't called you a racist, nor do I think you are, but if someone reading your posts drew that conclusion maybe you should think about why they might get that idea? Consider that maybe they see some but not all of your posts?

Before I defend the "racist grandads" quip again can I ask you if *you've* actually read the post in which I used it? If you have that is a willful misrepresentation of it.
		
Click to expand...

I think they drew the conclusion to create insult. 

Yes I read your post and it was probably the one in the 
Iine of similar posts that encouraged me to respond to what I saw as a trend towards inverted predjudice.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			I saw that & the poster is wrong & I hope they apologise accordingly. If I was forced into a label (which I haven’t been) I’d use *c*onservative

Click to expand...

Conservatives OK but Well Preserved Conservatives better 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Conservatives OK but Well Preserved Conservatives better 😉
		
Click to expand...

Pickled? 😂👍


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## drdel (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was a light-hearted quip used to describe the plethora of old-looking guys causing trouble and generally being racist in London this weekend. And as it has completely distracted from the serious point I was trying to make I can assure you I deeply regret it. But I promise, I am definitely not prejudiced against grandads!
		
Click to expand...

OK. Do you know for a fact that the guys were old and the only ones causing trouble also do you also have evidence they were racists.

I would suggest it was a mob being obnoxious and acting illegally.

The cops need to ensure even handed treatment of all protester. Showing deference to one side or other is a worry and politicises the Police.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK. Do you know for a fact that the guys were old and the only ones causing trouble also do you also have evidence they were racists.

I would suggest it was a mob being obnoxious and acting illegally.

The cops need to ensure even handed treatment of all protester. Showing deference to one side or other is a worry and politicises the Police.
		
Click to expand...

This one had just popped out for a paper and has hair!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271940253927067648


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## Fade and Die (Jun 14, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			It was a joke, at the expense of the id politics crew

Hence the big smilie

was hopeful of getting a load of hairy virtue signallers jumping to my defense.
		
Click to expand...

I know that mate, my whole post #879 was tongue in cheek.... I’m just glad I didn’t describe them as Fatties, I’d have been Black balled by now!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This one had just popped out for a paper and has hair!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271940253927067648

Click to expand...

At least he had sense to ditch the KKK outfit


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## Fade and Die (Jun 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This one had just popped out for a paper and has hair!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271940253927067648

Click to expand...

Black Trans Lives Matter? Jeez you don’t half follow some odd uns!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Pickled? 😂👍
		
Click to expand...

More, well bodied 😊


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Black Trans Lives Matter? Jeez you don’t half follow some odd uns!
		
Click to expand...

Wait untill next weekend, the Peckham Vegetarian Bikers against Foxhunting are starting to get a bit cross.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Black Trans Lives Matter? Jeez you don’t half follow some odd uns!
		
Click to expand...

Careful, I might suggest your comments aren’t funny and I’m offended and I’d hate any other posters to jump on your bandwagon.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Evidence? It was all over social and mainstream media. You know those guys doing the nazi salutes?

Not sure how many times I need to repeat this but the grandad line was a throwaway joke. Yes, you are correct there were also younger racists there. But they could grow up to be racist grandads if we're not careful (oops another joke, I just can't help myself)

This is a distraction from a serious thread. I'm sorry my stupid sense of humour has enabled you and others to deflect from what was meant to be a constructive comment.
		
Click to expand...

Deflection is a well practised skill on here.


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## DanFST (Jun 14, 2020)

I haven’t gone through yet. But no one is defending the Richards in London this weekend right?


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## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s a really clumsy tool, but I’m not sure if there’s a better one. It’s the easiest way to equalise  an equal opportunities policy.
		
Click to expand...

For sure, but it is attitudes that need changing, and I am not sure the clumsy tool is really going to do it. It could be seen as counter representative, and make it worse. How do you answer you are only here because you are black/asian/female/guy what ever? Is it not easier to answer, because I was the best candidate?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2020)

I think my favourite protester of the weekend was the total moron that threw a punch at the head of the policeman/woman that was dressed in full riot gear. What sort of idiot thinks that it's a good idea to punch a riot helmet?


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## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s a really clumsy tool, but I’m not sure if there’s a better one. It’s the easiest way to equalise  an equal opportunities policy.
		
Click to expand...

Previous post self deleted. Will re-post. Flipping forum can be junk sometimes, especially when editing.

Not sure positive discrimination really helps. If someone is appointed who is BAME, female, gay, disabled, what ever the criteria was, how are they supposed to answer the question, why are you here? Were you the best candidate? Hmm. Wouldn't it be best to be able to say yes. Not that I was the best out of a limited field.
Attitudes need to change, for sure, but I am not sure the clumsy tool really cuts it.


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## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2020)

now it's on there twice. Flipping forum software is ..... add what ever description you feel fit.


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## 3offTheTee (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Evidence? It was all over social and mainstream media. You know those guys doing the nazi salutes?

Not sure how many times I need to repeat this but the grandad line was a throwaway joke. Yes, you are correct there were also younger racists there. But they could grow up to be racist grandads if we're not careful (oops another joke, I just can't help myself)

This is a distraction from a serious thread. I'm sorry my stupid sense of humour has enabled you and others to deflect from what was meant to be a constructive comment.
		
Click to expand...

Dear me Kaz, I read your post at the time, chuckled, thought good on yer, watched 2 programmes on tele, had dinner, couple of glasses of wine and it has not gone away.

Thought it was funny at the time, still is, people need to move on. Expect at times you wish you had not returned!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was a light-hearted quip used to describe the plethora of old-looking guys causing trouble and generally being racist in London this weekend. And as it has completely distracted from the serious point I was trying to make I can assure you I deeply regret it. But I promise, I am definitely not prejudiced against grandads!
		
Click to expand...

But what about the racist grandmothers? Bit sexist of you not to mention them.... #metoo


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## Wolf (Jun 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think my favourite protester of the weekend was the total moron that threw a punch at the head of the policeman/woman that was dressed in full riot gear. *What sort of idiot thinks that it's a good idea to punch a riot helmet?*

Click to expand...

You would be surprised how often that happens. I've seen it happen during riot training when I was was in pre deployment to N.I so its no surprise people do it in heat of actual rioting


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## User20205 (Jun 15, 2020)

Not sure citing Katie Hopkins & Jim Davidson supports any cause 
he’s a proven racist & homophobe, his performance on reality TV shows this.
I don’t know why we can’t have a grown up conversation. The pyramids point has been debunked FYI. David Lammy  made some great points on Andrew Marr yesterday, maybe Jim should have watched. Piers Morgan has just repeated the point. If those 2 can agree then maybe there’s a moderate way?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2020)

Great news......our PM is going to hold an enquiry into racism in the UK.
That must be 281 enquiries we have had now. 


[I might not be totally accurate with that figure ]


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## patricks148 (Jun 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Great news......our PM is going to hold an enquiry into racism in the UK.
That must be 281 enquiries we have had now.


[I might not be totally accurate with that figure ]
		
Click to expand...

or it ever gets published


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Words fail me, idiot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271811339913232386

Click to expand...

Jailed for 2 weeks, utter, utter scum. Great news.


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## drdel (Jun 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Great news......our PM is going to hold an enquiry into racism in the UK.
That must be 281 enquiries we have had now.


[I might not be totally accurate with that figure ]
		
Click to expand...

And if he did nothing he'd be hauled over the coals for that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			And if he did nothing he'd be hauled over the coals for that.
		
Click to expand...

Or carry out a review of the 4 other reviews.

There are 35 recommendations in the Lammy Review. Implement them. 

110 recommendations in the Angiolini Review. Implement them. 

30 recommendations in the Windrush Lessons Learned Review. Implement them. 

26 recommendations in Baroness McGregor-Smith's Review. Implement them.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 15, 2020)

Reminder, it pays to do your research 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272217078917971970


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Reminder, it pays to do your research 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272217078917971970

Click to expand...

Thick as mince.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 15, 2020)

Oh my word


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 15, 2020)

That’s quite spectacular 🙄


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## Rooter (Jun 15, 2020)

You cannot argue with stupid.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 15, 2020)

Rooter said:



			You cannot argue with stupid.
		
Click to expand...


Multiple posts and threads on this forum would indicate otherwise


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## fundy (Jun 15, 2020)

Rooter said:



			You cannot argue with stupid.
		
Click to expand...

yes you can


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 15, 2020)

Could be worse, she could be advising on education matters...


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Thick as mince.

Click to expand...

Mince is useful


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Reminder, it pays to do your research 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272217078917971970

Click to expand...

Alternative view.  She is chair of Lambeth Independent police Advisory Group, not The Police Advisory Group as could be inferred from India Willoughby's tweet. Then you look who India has got the video from and it's from a Trump apologist alt right commentator who is on Sirius XM Patriot, the true voice of conservative talk radio as they brand themselves, who also have shows by Brietbart news and Sean Hannity. Also if you look on comments on the 9 minute youtube clip of the full interview, yes people are angry but hardly anyone comments on this small excerpt or gets triggered by her comments about Churchill.

Another way of looking at what she said could be that she is just saying she can't offer a comment on if he is racist or not as she personally hasn't met him.  Not that she thinks he is still alive.  I do take on board that she may think that Churchill is still alive.  But she may also have just not her point across very well and has been taken advantage of by an Trump supporting alt right commentator, who may or may not have a vested interest in taking 20 seconds from a 9 minute piece to make a black women look stupid.  Who can say. But if so, who can blame black people for marching, getting angry and tearing down statues.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			And if he did nothing he'd be hauled over the coals for that.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly not by his supporters.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Alternative view.  She is chair of Lambeth Independent police Advisory Group, not The Police Advisory Group as could be inferred from India Willoughby's tweet. Then you look who India has got the video from and it's from a Trump apologist alt right commentator who is on Sirius XM Patriot, the true voice of conservative talk radio as they brand themselves, who also have shows by Brietbart news and Sean Hannity. Also if you look on comments on the 9 minute youtube clip of the full interview, yes people are angry but hardly anyone comments on this small excerpt or gets triggered by her comments about Churchill.

Another way of looking at what she said could be that she is just saying she can't offer a comment on if he is racist or not as she personally hasn't met him.  Not that she thinks he is still alive.  I do take on board that she may think that Churchill is still alive.  But she may also have just not her point across very well and has been taken advantage of by an Trump supporting alt right commentator, who may or may not have a vested interest in taking 20 seconds from a 9 minute piece to make a black women look stupid.  Who can say. But if so, who can blame black people for marching, getting angry and tearing down statues.
		
Click to expand...

Her words imply he’s still alive by saying “he is” not “he was”.
She isn’t being made to look stupid, she is stupid.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Alternative view.  She is chair of Lambeth Independent police Advisory Group, not The Police Advisory Group as could be inferred from India Willoughby's tweet. Then you look who India has got the video from and it's from a Trump apologist alt right commentator who is on Sirius XM Patriot, the true voice of conservative talk radio as they brand themselves, who also have shows by Brietbart news and Sean Hannity. Also if you look on comments on the 9 minute youtube clip of the full interview, yes people are angry but hardly anyone comments on this small excerpt or gets triggered by her comments about Churchill.

Another way of looking at what she said could be that she is just saying she can't offer a comment on if he is racist or not as she personally hasn't met him.  Not that she thinks he is still alive.  I do take on board that she may think that Churchill is still alive.  But she may also have just not her point across very well and has been taken advantage of by an Trump supporting alt right commentator, who may or may not have a vested interest in taking 20 seconds from a 9 minute piece to make a black women look stupid.  Who can say. But if so, who can blame black people for marching, getting angry and tearing down statues.
		
Click to expand...

She was interviewed by Channel 4.  You can see more of it here

https://www.channel4.com/news/chair...-rage-against-the-police-was-totally-horrific

including the bit where she admits that history isn't her strong point. 

Far right hatchet job?  No, own goal, pure and simple.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 15, 2020)

Now breakfast cereals are racist 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272557664921440259


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## chrisd (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Now breakfast cereals are racist 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272557664921440259

Click to expand...

............. and upsetting,  my mate drowned in a bowl of cereal recently and  never got to say goodbye....... very poignant given they were Cheerios😖

(Milton Jones 2017)


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## Papas1982 (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Now breakfast cereals are racist 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272557664921440259

Click to expand...

Oh God, i hope she doesn't remember the original video. They dared to call the kids that eat them (cheeky)monkeys!!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 15, 2020)

I suspect she's just putting her self.back back in the spotlight after her stint inside.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Now breakfast cereals are racist 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272557664921440259

Click to expand...

Someone needs to sit her down & explain that coming out with this crap actually does more harm than good for anti racism.


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Her words imply he’s still alive by saying “he is” not “he was”.
She isn’t being made to look stupid, she is stupid.
		
Click to expand...

I thought Winston was with us, always...OB1 style


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

Be interested in others thoughts on this, tear down a 'Racists' statue and replace with this ? Isn't this racist as well ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272567382008115202


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## Trapdraw (Jun 16, 2020)

The way I see it is what happened to George Floyd was horrendous, the policeman will be punished. But if George Floyd didn’t engage in a criminal lifestyle he wouldn’t have even been in that situation.

Where were the marches and protests for David Dorn, the 77year old retired police officer who was shot and killed by a looter?


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## Beezerk (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Be interested in others thoughts on this, tear down a 'Racists' statue and replace with this ? Isn't this racist as well ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272567382008115202

Click to expand...

I can't view the photo, what is it?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

Looks like it's been taken down.
It was a fat bald bloke in a string vest , basically saying this was your typical St George patriot.


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

Trapdraw said:



			The way I see it is what happened to George Floyd was horrendous, the policeman will be punished. But if George Floyd didn’t engage in a criminal lifestyle he wouldn’t have even been in that situation.

Where were the marches and protests for David Dorn, the 77year old retired police officer who was shot and killed by a looter?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, with a bit of help from the media, and I'm disturbed to say, police deference to the BLM activists, the chance of a balanced exchange of views has gone out the window. I found it especially worrying that police were encouraged to 'take the knee' and shied away from arresting BLM thugs among demonstrators yet were very quick to exchange blows with other, perceived 'white' demonstrators. 

At this time BOTH groups' demonstrations were illegal and differential treatment under the law will merely perpetrate even more lawless and extreme behaviour.


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## patricks148 (Jun 16, 2020)

There was a guy on Good Morning Britain this morning, who was a double Amputee, poss an ex serviceman.
he summed it up quite well, the big issues are being missed by focussing on statues and old TV programs


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately, with a bit of help from the media, and I'm disturbed to say, police deference to the BLM activists, the chance of a balanced exchange of views has gone out the window.* I found it especially worrying that police were encouraged to 'take the knee' and shied away from arresting BLM thugs among demonstrators yet were very quick to exchange blows with other, perceived 'white' demonstrators.*

At this time BOTH groups' demonstrations were illegal and differential treatment under the law will merely perpetrate even more lawless and extreme behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have any proof of this alleged Police behaviour?


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## Beezerk (Jun 16, 2020)

*facepalm*


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## GreiginFife (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Looks like it's been taken down.
It was a fat bald bloke in a string vest , basically saying this was your typical St George patriot.
		
Click to expand...

Then no, it's not racist. Stereotypical possibly but not racist.


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you have any proof of this alleged Police behaviour?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			*facepalm*
		
Click to expand...

Care to explain?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes.
		
Click to expand...

Would you like to share?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Then no, it's not racist. Stereotypical possibly but not racist.
		
Click to expand...

That's the bit I struggle with differentiating between


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## Beezerk (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Care to explain?
		
Click to expand...

I had my palm in my face 🤷‍♂️


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## GreiginFife (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			That's the bit I struggle with differentiating between
		
Click to expand...

Then I am not sure you should really be participating in this thread.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

Possibly, I see things in the press media and wonder sometimes


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I had my palm in my face 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Hilarious and gutless


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			There was a guy on Good Morning Britain this morning, who was a double Amputee, poss an ex serviceman.
he summed it up quite well, the big issues are being missed by focussing on statues and old TV programs
		
Click to expand...

Especially if you like old TV programs about statues


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Would you like to share?
		
Click to expand...

Herts Constabulary...


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

so after yesterday's legislation you'll have many officers kneeling in front of 6 protesters.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Herts Constabulary...






Click to expand...

That was put out as they were expecting a peaceful protest, the “white” racist counter demo was anything but and this time the Police were prepared and should be thanked rather than accusing them of rubbish.


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## huds1475 (Jun 16, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Someone needs to sit her down & explain that coming out with this crap actually does more harm than good for anti racism.
		
Click to expand...

Attention seeking.

Gets suitably taken down in the replies to her daft posts.


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## Trapdraw (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you have any proof of this alleged Police behaviour?
		
Click to expand...

Google it, it was in the news a few days ago, the police are a disgrace for doing it. They should be impartial and non political.
BLM are just a bunch of hypocrites.
People protesting over criminals being killed, but where are the protests over David Dorn etc, or the black on black killings!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

Trapdraw said:



			Google it, it was in the news a few days ago, the police are a disgrace for doing it. They should be impartial and non political.
BLM are just a bunch of hypocrites.
People protesting over criminals being killed, but where are the protests over David Dorn etc, or the black on black killings!
		
Click to expand...

I have and it was rubbished, the Police did not expect the BLM March to turn violent and dressed accordingly.
Maybe take your EDL glasses off and stop blaming the Police.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 17, 2020)

More of the same this weekend ?
Lets.see.what the police approach is this time and how many arrests



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272849151613644801


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## Trapdraw (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I have and it was rubbished, the Police did not expect the BLM March to turn violent and dressed accordingly.
Maybe take your EDL glasses off and stop blaming the Police.
		
Click to expand...

EDL glasses !! I don’t think so. Is that your response to a differing opinion, call them racist. I bet you’re sitting with your soy latte, reading The Guardian spouting your left wing liberal views. The police didn’t think the BLM protests wouldn’t turn violent !!!! Haha what happened with the ones in the US!!!


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## patricks148 (Jun 17, 2020)

Guys please tone it down and lets cut out the name calling


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I have and it was rubbished, the Police did not expect the BLM March to turn violent and dressed accordingly.
Maybe take your EDL glasses off and stop blaming the Police.
		
Click to expand...

Really, it was advice that the Constabulary thought might help calm the situation. 

It was an odds on bet there would be disorder. Policing a London demonstration without expecting some assaults etc would be the height of stupidity.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really, it was advice that the Constabulary thought might help calm the situation.

It was an odds on bet there would be disorder. Policing a London demonstration without expecting some assaults etc would be the height of stupidity.
		
Click to expand...

They had Riot Police in reserve, seriously think about what you and others are “accussing” our Met Police of?
Do you really believe those at the top are risking the lives of their Coppers on the Front Line?


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They had Riot Police in reserve, seriously think about what you and others are “accussing” our Met Police of?
Do you really believe those at the top are risking the lives of their Coppers on the Front Line?
		
Click to expand...

That's the narrative now and my god those on the right will be sticking to it. 
It also helps that when arguing this point you don't have to discuss the justifiable issues faced by minorities in the UK.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			That's the narrative now and my god those on the right will be sticking to it.
It also helps that when arguing this point you don't have to discuss the justifiable issues faced by minorities in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly and still no one can answer why the Veterans or the FLA even had to go to London last weekend.
Their behaviour has dropped off the radar.


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Exactly and still no one can answer why the Veterans or the FLA even had to go to London last weekend.
Their behaviour has dropped off the radar.
		
Click to expand...

There is a massive difference in the merits of the cause underpinning BLM and protests and the rights and wrongs of the various demonstrations at this tjme of a pandemic.

All I, and I think many others, have tried to hghlight is the (IMO) inbalance in the Police approach. The Police Oath specifically requires neutrality in the application of the law.

There are current SD recommendations on group gatherings yet these have not been enforced.

It appears that neutrality has not been maintained. One group is shown deference and standoff treatment while "get stuck in" appears to be the approach to others. 

I respect you think differently but IMO the frequency of your posts containing increasingly forceful put-downs and rightwing leftwing insults are distracting from the moral cause and the debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is a massive difference in the merits of the cause underpinning BLM and protests and the rights and wrongs of the various demonstrations at this tjme of a pandemic.

All I, and I think many others, have tried to hghlight is the (IMO) inbalance in the Police approach. The Police Oath specifically requires neutrality in the application of the law.

There are current SD recommendations on group gatherings yet these have not been enforced.

It appears that neutrality has not been maintained. One group is shown deference and standoff treatment while "get stuck in" appears to be the approach to others.

I respect you think differently but IMO the frequency of your posts containing increasingly forceful put-downs and rightwing leftwing insults are distracting from the moral cause and the debate.
		
Click to expand...

I have condemned all marches, I have condemned the violence and extremism on both sides, I have openly admitted I hold some racist views, but obviously all of that is ignored.

You, and others are critisizing the Police with hindsight, were where these criticisms after the BLM March? There were none, so when the Police realise they made errors and prepare for the Veterans and FLA turning up they are accussed of having a different approach, what did want the Police to do? Take another battering and risk more injured Officers?

As for your final paragraph, that stinks of absolute double standards, were are you when SILH is being jumped on, or the tory supporters are all over Abbott or Corbyn or the posters who had absolutely nothing but one word comments with no explanation or a smart ass joke etc.

Did you defend Kaz when the bald old racist comment was took out of context?

Sadly the right of centre on the forum don’t like themselves being questioned.

Have a look at this thread at the posters who commented on this thread about the BLM March and the violence who have strangely stayed quiet and made no comment about the Veteran/FLA violence.

I’m happy to debate with anyone and challenge any views/posts within forum rules, unlike others I won’t hide behind the keyboard.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

Why are some so keen to label those on here who don't agree with the demonstrations conducted by the BLM group as either racist or right wing fanatics. More police were injured in the previous week than this weekend and some are pretending that there weren't people in the BLM group who went with one intention and one intention only which made them no better than the racists who caused the problems this weekend.

The demos this weekend were a disgrace but, and it was obvious that there would be the ultra right there, why didn't BLM stay away thereby assisting the police in there job rather than joining in the violent clashes.

As to the veterans being there, not the best move but if people bother to read reports circulated on multi media, from those that were there then the majority held a small protest at the cenotaph and then were escorted from the cenotaph to the guards memorial, they then returned peacefully to the cenotaph before dispersing. Was it sensible, no, were there a few veterans disgracing their service, yes.


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I have condemned all marches, I have condemned the violence and extremism on both sides, I have openly admitted I hold some racist views, but obviously all of that is ignored.

You, and others are *critisizing the Police with hindsight* *(1)*, were where these criticisms after the BLM March? There were none, so when the Police realise they made errors and prepare for the Veterans and FLA turning up they are accussed of having a different approach, what did want the Police to do? Take another battering and risk more injured Officers?

As for *your final paragraph, that stinks of absolute double standards*, *(2)* were are you when SILH is being jumped on, or the tory supporters are all over Abbott or Corbyn or the posters who had absolutely nothing but one word comments with no explanation or a smart ass joke etc.

Did you defend Kaz when the bald old racist comment was took out of context?

Sadly the right of centre on the forum don’t like themselves being questioned.

Have a look at this thread at the posters who commented on this thread about the BLM March and the violence who have strangely stayed quiet and made no comment about the Veteran/FLA violence.

*I’m happy to debate with anyone and challenge any views/posts within forum rules, unlike others I won’t hide behind the keyboard* *(3)*.
		
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1. Since I did not have access to a crystal ball  for prior warning of the incidents I could only past commenent post event.
2. Unfortunately this is IMO a rant which is demonstrating underlying anger towards the opinion I gave.  How on earth the post to which you reply is related to SILH, Tories, Abbott or Corbyn I have no idea unless it is meant to be a scatter gun insult against others.
3. I think your comments suggest otherwise, as for hiding behind a keyboard - I will be intrgued as to how that will work on a web based Forum.

I'll not bother you further.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			1. Since I did not have access to a crystal ball  for prior warning of the incidents I could only past commenent post event.
2. Unfortunately this is IMO a rant which is demonstrating underlying anger towards the opinion I gave.  How on earth the post to which you reply is related to SILH, Tories, Abbott or Corbyn I have no idea unless it is meant to be a scatter gun insult against others.
3. I think your comments suggest otherwise, as for hiding behind a keyboard - I will be intrgued as to how that will work on a web based Forum.

I'll not bother you further.
		
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1. You are judging both incidents as one, you don’t have a crystal ball, but yet you expected the Police to have one.

2. My point on the double standard is the fact I believe you are playing me and not my posts, my comment is not directed at anyone else merely pointing out that when others have behaved similar to myself on other subjects you have remained quiet and failed to call out the same behaviour on them.

3. People on here make comments and disappear, it’s not how’d they would behave face to face, I see no difference, if you or anyone feels big enough to make a post, then be big enough to justify it and don’t run away.


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## Trapdraw (Jun 17, 2020)

The violence on both weekends was wrong, but for the police to expect none or very little on the first weekend was naive at best.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

Trapdraw said:



			The violence on both weekends was wrong, but for the police to expect none or very little on the first weekend was naive at best.
		
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They expected some and had enough officers suitably attired, a quick google search will show it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			They expected some and had enough officers suitably attired, a quick google search will show it.
		
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Thank you, all I have said from the beginning and some have refused to accept it.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 18, 2020)

https://m.thechronicle.com.au/news/gervais-skewers-cringe-worthy-celeb-vid/4036100/


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

And this is what happens when both extremes of the political spectrum decide they are the arbiter of what is right and wrong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53089528

Personally I'd like to see all religious symbols removed from public spaces but that's a personal view and I'm not going around with a sledgehammer.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



*And this is what happens when both extremes of the political spectrum decide they are the arbiter of what is right and wrong*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53089528

Personally I'd like to see all religious symbols removed from public spaces but that's a personal view and I'm not going around with a sledgehammer.
		
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Looks like we've finally found the part of the venn diagram where fans of 19th Century Victorian Novelists and Football Hooligans intersect. 2020, what a time to be alive. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272790032244490240


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 18, 2020)

Personally many historical unpleasant actions are intertwined with  later good  actions. I think it’s time to draw a line under the past and concentrate on moving forward with full equality as we should have already.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Personally many historical unpleasant actions are intertwined with  later good  actions. I think it’s time to draw a line under the past and concentrate on moving forward with full equality as we should have already.
		
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Dont we have full equality already, I do know what your suggesting but the problem is in a minority of peoples minds so how do we move forward.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looks like we've finally found the part of the venn diagram where fans of 19th Century Victorian Novelists and Football Hooligans intersect. 2020, what a time to be alive. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272790032244490240

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'ere, Reg, why we protecting some bloke in a dress?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 18, 2020)

The Atlanta police officer who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks was fired by the Atlanta police department following what officials called the “unjustified” killing.

The body cam footage recorded that incidents interactions and it's hard after viewing it, not to conclude that the only reason Rayshard Brooks ass is dead, is because of Rayshard Brooks.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			The Atlanta police officer who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks was fired by the Atlanta police department following what officials called the “unjustified” killing.

The body cam footage recorded that incidents interactions and it's hard after viewing it, not to conclude that the only reason Rayshard Brooks ass is dead, is because of Rayshard Brooks.








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Wow, if that's your conclusion from watching that then thank god you're not policing us with a gun.
He was hammered, resisted arrest, tried running away, got tapered, didn't work so they shot him as far as I could make out. They didn't even chase him for very long. I wonder how our police would have dealt with that


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Wow, if that's your conclusion from watching that then thank god you're not policing us with a gun.
He was hammered, resisted arrest, tried running away, got tapered, didn't work so they shot him as far as I could make out. They didn't even chase him for very long. I wonder how our police would have dealt with that
		
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Maybe watch a little closer then; he took the taser off one of the officers and tried to use it on one of them.  

Do you think that incident happens if he doesn't do what he did then?


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Wow, if that's your conclusion from watching that then thank god you're not policing us with a gun.
He was hammered, resisted arrest, tried running away, got tapered, didn't work so they shot him as far as I could make out. They didn't even chase him for very long. I wonder how our police would have dealt with that
		
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That's the problem with policing with a gun in a country where so many people carry them. I presume you meant tasered, Brooks fired the taser, or tried. Still wrong but he could have avoided it.


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## patricks148 (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Wow, if that's your conclusion from watching that then thank god you're not policing us with a gun.
He was hammered, resisted arrest, tried running away, got tapered, didn't work so they shot him as far as I could make out. They didn't even chase him for very long. I wonder how our police would have dealt with that
		
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I'd tend to agree, no threat to the public, drunk driver acts like a knob does a runner, not a good reason to be shot and killed


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 18, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I'd tend to agree, no threat to the public, drunk driver acts like a knob does a runner, not a good reason to be shot and killed
		
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The officers made a right mess of that 😳


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe watch a little closer then; he took the taser off one of the officers and tried to use it on one of them. 

Do you think that incident happens if he doesn't do what he did then?
		
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So he tried to use it , failed, so they shot him. You're an ex cop, does that seem reasonable to you?
Did they just not lose control of a situation and then overreact?


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## Beezerk (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So he tried to use it , failed, so they shot him. You're an ex cop, does that seem reasonable to you?
Did they just not lose control of a situation and then overreact?
		
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You weren't there, you were not the copper getting shot at with a taser (or maybe some other weapon he'd pulled out which the cops weren't to know).
You also don't take into account it's the USA, right or wrong the cops over there seem shoot first and ask questions later. Unfortunately this was a black fella killed at the wrong time, had he been a white fella and it wouldn't have hit the news , just another drunk white trailer trash goes nuts and gets killed.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So he tried to use it , failed, so they shot him. You're an ex cop, does that seem reasonable to you?
Did they just not lose control of a situation and then overreact?
		
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In a country where the police are routinely armed, I'd fully expect to get shot if I pointed a weapon at a police officer and fired it.

How many attempts do you give him to shoot an officer before it's fair to respond?

And any chance of you answering my question?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Wow, if that's your conclusion from watching that then thank god you're not policing us with a gun.
He was hammered, resisted arrest, tried running away, got tapered, didn't work so they shot him as far as I could make out. They didn't even chase him for very long. I wonder how our police would have dealt with that
		
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Hang on, let's not lose the shape of this. 

This is not a movie,where you are reviewing the story structure and offering specific opinions on the events depicted.

It is an edited recording of real events in the sequence they occurred.

So what it actually shows and documents is the moment when a man under arrest,breaks free from restraint, takes an officers taser,threatens the officer and is then disabled by the officer. That's the content.

And the escalation of conflict can be clearly seen and heard long before the suspect turns and discharges a taser 
directly at an officer which resulted in the suspects fatal shooting.

The idea of charging the officer with murder is simply ludicrous. Because under what circumstances is a Policeman allowed to protect his own life?


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## Beezerk (Jun 18, 2020)

I'd just like to add after watching the video, I think there now may be an element of "I'm black so I can take the pi$$ out of you and you can't do anything to me" going on.
That's just an observation btw before I get accused of being a centre right/far right golfing racist 😉


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## Fade and Die (Jun 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd just like to add after watching the video, I think there now may be an element of "I'm black so I can take the pi$$ out of you and you can't do anything to me" going on.
*That's just an observation btw before I get accused of being a centre right/far right golfing racist* 😉
		
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Exactly.....Bloke steals weapon from police officer and aims it at him, bloke is shot. He was asked a number of times to stop fighting and resisting.

*Current insults for bold bit are “member of EDL” or “alt Right” (whatever that means) so brace yourself 😁


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			In a country where the police are routinely armed, I'd fully expect to get shot if I pointed a weapon at a police officer and fired it.

How many attempts do you give him to shoot an officer before it's fair to respond?

And any chance of you answering my question?
		
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I think it wouldn't but then again they're the police and should be trained to the highest standard not to do that. Not saying the guy wasn't in the wrong, I'm not saying he wasn't resisting arrest, I don't think it matters he's black it's just bloody awful policing. We have tasers and drunken a@#$holes a plenty in this country but our police seem to manage.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2020)

I genuinely think the colour of the drunk or the Police is irrelevant.

From that video why couldn’t he or anyone else in that situation simply comply with the Police.

He took on 2 guys, false bravado full of ale and whether he deserved to die or not is another argument, but why risk it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I think it wouldn't but then again they're the police and should be trained to the highest standard not to do that. Not saying the guy wasn't in the wrong, I'm not saying he wasn't resisting arrest, I don't think it matters he's black it's just bloody awful policing. We have tasers and drunken a@#$holes a plenty in this country but our police seem to manage.
		
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Not to do what; what exactly is the bloody awful policing that you are referring to?


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not to do what; what exactly is the bloody awful policing that you are referring to?
		
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Well I'm guessing they had already assessed he wasn't carrying a weapon as that's the 1st thing they do in those situations so they shot and killed a man who was resisting arrest after being done for drunk driving.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Well I'm guessing they had already assessed he wasn't carrying a weapon as that's the 1st thing they do in those situations so they shot and killed a man who was resisting arrest after being done for drunk driving.
		
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They assessed that he had a weapon; the one he had stolen from them, the one that he was discharging at them.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			They assessed that he had a weapon; the one he had stolen from them, the one that he was discharging at them.
		
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I'll leave this one, we're not going to find any common ground on this.


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## USER1999 (Jun 18, 2020)

Thing is, the video posted above is from a country where the Police have guns, and use them. If you grew up there, you know this. So nicking a taser, and using it, and then legging it, you kinda know what happens next. It's no mystery. Right or wrong, the guy knew what was coming. How could he not? Pissed or not, in the good old US of A, odds on, he would get shot. 

The guy was an idiot.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			The Atlanta police officer who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks was fired by the Atlanta police department following what officials called the “unjustified” killing.

The body cam footage recorded that incidents interactions and it's hard after viewing it, not to conclude that the only reason Rayshard Brooks ass is dead, is because of Rayshard Brooks.








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And here's  the DA's take on it;


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## DanFST (Jun 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			You also don't take into account it's the USA, right or wrong the cops over there seem shoot first and ask questions later.
		
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That's the whole point and a reason why people are protesting......

FWIW: It's terrible policing, but the 2 guys shouldn't face charges in this case. The district attorney has gone mad and officers from 5 of the 6 Atlanta PD zones have walked out.


THE DA hasn't followed due process in this case. And also stated 2 weeks ago that Tasers are in fact lethal weapons whilst charging 6 other officers 2 weeks ago. HERE


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## DanFST (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			They assessed that he had a weapon; the one he had stolen from them, the one that he was discharging at them.
		
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That doesn't work, a taser is single use and he'd already discharged it when they shot him.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That doesn't work, a taser is single use and he'd already discharged it when they shot him.
		
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Doesn't it; what model of Taser was it?  If it's a Taser X2 it's a two shot device; if it's a Taser 7 it's a two shot device; if it's a Taser X3 it's a 3 shot device.

https://www.axon.com/products/taser-x2

https://www.axon.com/products/taser-7

https://www.policemag.com/340182/taser-x3-three-in-one


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## DanFST (Jun 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Doesn't it; what model of Taser was it?  If it's a Taser X2 it's a two shot device; if it's a Taser 7 it's a two shot device; if it's a Taser X3 it's a 3 shot device.
		
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It's none of the above. its an x26.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 18, 2020)

Great gesture having BLM on the football shirts.
But who makes the football kits & how much do they get paid?
They’ve all jumped on the PR band wagon.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's none of the above. its an x26.
		
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Jeez, does that mean a 26 shot tazer.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's none of the above. its an x26.
		
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The single shot X26 that was phased out because of the greater cardiac risk?  Ah, okay. 

In that case, can you give the Atlanta DA a ring & put him straight, as according to The Guardian, he's claiming the officer knew it was fired twice.  Which tends to suggest it's not an X26...


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## DanFST (Jun 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The single shot X26 that was phased out because of the greater cardiac risk?  Ah, okay. 

In that case, can you give the Atlanta DA a ring & put him straight, as according to The Guardian, he's claiming the officer knew it was fired twice.  Which tends to suggest it's not an X26...
		
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You can make all the snide remarks you like, It's an X26.

Did your Guardian article also state that the DA charged 4 officers for using a taser, classing it as a lethal weapon 2 weeks ago. That he is charging before the Georgia Bureau of Investigation finish their investigation (against protocol) Or that he claimed the secondary officer will be states witness in the case? In which he didn't agree to at all? 

Atlanta PD have walked out because of this DA, so not the best source you could have used.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Great gesture having BLM on the football shirts.
But who makes the football kits & how much do they get paid?
They’ve all jumped on the PR band wagon.
		
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Ah, so it was all about making the kit manufacturers a few bob? Sneaky buggers, well spotted!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Ah, so it was all about making the kit manufacturers a few bob? Sneaky buggers, well spotted!
		
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In an alternative world everything comes down to money. If it doesn't make a profit then it is not worth doing for any other reason.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			In an alternative world everything comes down to money. If it doesn't make a profit then it is not worth doing for any other reason.
		
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If we look at it with a nice hat on, these shirts will be used once or twice and then auctioned by the clubs, signed and given to youth football clubs (highly likely predominantly black youth teams). They will not be sold.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If we look at it with a nice hat on, these shirts will be used once or twice and then auctioned by the clubs, signed and given to youth football clubs (highly likely predominantly black youth teams). They will not be sold.
		
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Is there really such a thing as a Black Youth Team.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there really such a thing as a Black Youth Team.
		
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There used to be when I was playing.
But as a lot of youth clubs have closed I am not sure now.
I would think it would be wrong to exclude a player because they are white.
Just like excluding a black player.
They might still exist but not under that name.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there really such a thing as a Black Youth Team.
		
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Possibly in certain inner city areas. Even if not officially there will undoubtedly be clubs which are based in predominantly black communities. 

I used to play hockey and there were a number of teams we used to play against that were entirely Indian or Pakistani, 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation. There was nothing sinister in that, it was just the communities, towns etc they were based in. At the same time, our team was entirely white so it is hardly the case that we should get huffy about that.

As clubchamp has posted, they would not exclude white boys / girls. They would have been set up to counter inital prejudice from mainly white teams. There are golf clubs that were initally Jewish clubs, Moor Allerton in N.Yorks is one that springs to mind, as the members were excluded from nearby clubs. Over time they are not exclusively Jewish members but it is what people had to do to overcome prejudice.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Possibly in certain inner city areas. Even if not officially there will undoubtedly be clubs which are based in predominantly black communities.

I used to play hockey and there were a number of teams we used to play against that were entirely Indian or Pakistani, 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation. There was nothing sinister in that, it was just the communities, towns etc they were based in. At the same time, our team was entirely white so it is hardly the case that we should get huffy about that.
		
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Yes we played in the Liverpool league and teams out of Toxteth were entirely black lads.
Some great footballers who were very good teams.
Teams then were from your local area and there wasn’t to much travelling around.
As LT says that’s just how it was. Nothing sinister just locality dictated unless you were very good , you were then in better leagues so travelled more.
I would be surprised if it’s still like this now, but am not involved with footy anymore.


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## Hackers76 (Jun 19, 2020)

Baffled by the last few pages of comments regarding the Brooks murder (not just calling it a shooting). Seen plenty of you say they shot when he pointed their taser at him, NO. They shot him in the back when he run away, trained officers shot an unarmed man in the back who was being cautioned for a non violent offence. Yes he panicked when they tried to arrest him, there was a struggle and he got the taser. After that had finished they tried to chase him for just a few yards before drawing their guns and shooting him in the back. Every right to be charged with murder.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Possibly in certain inner city areas. Even if not officially there will undoubtedly be clubs which are based in predominantly black communities.

I used to play hockey and there were a number of teams we used to play against that were entirely Indian or Pakistani, 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation. There was nothing sinister in that, it was just the communities, towns etc they were based in. At the same time, our team was entirely white so it is hardly the case that we should get huffy about that.

As clubchamp has posted, they would not exclude white boys / girls. They would have been set up to counter inital prejudice from mainly white teams. There are golf clubs that were initally Jewish clubs, Moor Allerton in N.Yorks is one that springs to mind, as the members were excluded from nearby clubs. Over time they are not exclusively Jewish members but it is what people had to do to overcome prejudice.
		
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I think I may have misread your post, I thought you meant football clubs specifically for Black people rather than football clubs where most were black. 🤔


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			Baffled by the last few pages of comments regarding the Brooks murder (not just calling it a shooting). Seen plenty of you say they shot when he pointed their taser at him, NO. They shot him in the back when he run away, trained officers shot an unarmed man in the back who was being cautioned for a non violent offence. Yes he panicked when they tried to arrest him, there was a struggle and he got the taser. After that had finished they tried to chase him for just a few yards before drawing their guns and shooting him in the back. Every right to be charged with murder.
		
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What's the point of this anyhow. Is there a suggestion that if he was white they wouldnt have shot him, also it's not in the UK so not really anything we have an influence with.


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## Hackers76 (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What's the point of this anyhow. Is there a suggestion that if he was white they wouldnt have shot him, also it's not in the UK so not really anything we have an influence with.
		
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Are you questioning my post or the numerous posts in here debating it? The point is the BLM movement really came to the fore after an act of police brutality on a black man, this is another example.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			Are you questioning my post or the numerous posts in here debating it? The point is the BLM movement really came to the fore after an act of police brutality on a black man, this is another example.
		
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All of them. I'm still unsure why though, is police brutality OK on Whites, what if it was a Black policeman on a White man or a Black policeman on a Black man, just seems like people are looking for things to be offended by.


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## DanFST (Jun 19, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			Baffled by the last few pages of comments regarding the Brooks murder (not just calling it a shooting). Seen plenty of you say they shot when he pointed their taser at him, NO. They shot him in the back when he run away, trained officers shot an unarmed man in the back who was being cautioned for a non violent offence. Yes he panicked when they tried to arrest him, there was a struggle and he got the taser. After that had finished they tried to chase him for just a few yards before drawing their guns and shooting him in the back. Every right to be charged with murder.
		
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No, the state of Georgia classes that a legal shoot. He did what they were trained to do. Personally I think the training needs to be far far better. 2 cops should not loose a scrap to a guy that is absolutely wasted and passed out in his car, I don't feel a taser should be classed as a lethal. Cops need more help, more accountability and guns as last resort. Things like this should not happen. 



SocketRocket said:



			I'm still unsure why though, is police brutality OK on Whites, what if it was a Black policeman on a White man or a Black policeman on a Black man, just seems like people are looking for things to be offended by.
		
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Of course it isn't, no one has said that at any point. 

But we get it, you don't think racism and stereotyping exists, no need to bang on.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2020)

I think your average American cop is not going to be able to run more than a few paces. Too much time in the donut shop.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			No, the state of Georgia classes that a legal shoot. He did what they were trained to do. Personally I think the training needs to be far far better. 2 cops should not loose a scrap to a guy that is absolutely wasted and passed out in his car, I don't feel a taser should be classed as a lethal. Cops need more help, more accountability and guns as last resort. Things like this should not happen.



Of course it isn't, no one has said that at any point.

*But we get it, you don't think racism and stereotyping exists, no need to bang on.*

Click to expand...

Some on this forum are very good at putting words in other peoples mouths, how you can extrapolate what your suggesting from my post is obserd. Where have I suggested racism and stereotyping doesnt exist, I would really like you to show some evidence to support that accusation otherwise I am calling it out as false and exaggerated rubbish.


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## DanFST (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*we have full equality already*, I do know what your suggesting but the problem is in a minority of peoples minds
		
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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

That's a pathetic attempt and taking my comment out of context. My point was that the issues are not associated to equality under the law but in a minority of peoples minds, that doesnt say there is no problem. You need to try a lot harder than that 🙄


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## spongebob59 (Jun 20, 2020)

Statues, now books 😞

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/12/harper-lee-mark-twain-banned-minnesota-schools/


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Statues, now books 😞

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/12/harper-lee-mark-twain-banned-minnesota-schools/

Click to expand...

You have to wonder if those banning To Kill a Mockingbird have actually read it?  Because if they have, they certainly seem to have missed the points that it makes.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2020)

Scottish protests go ahead despite the Government, Council and Cops saying don't congregate.

The organisation BLM (UK) seems somewhat opaque and different from the US equivalent that has fund to over $100m: money from, among others, Soros and Ford to tackle racism.

Crowd funded to about £1m. No accounts, not registered, Key owners/managers/directors not named. BLM Fundraising said aims to : "Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the *abolition of police.*"

It would appear more Marxist in its aims. BLM UK state "We’re guided by a commitment to *dismantle imperialism, capitalism*, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain."

They also aim to 'defund' the Police and give the money to others.

Unfortunately it seems to me it makes the "Black Lives Matter' just looks like a banner statement rather than the genuine aims.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 20, 2020)

There's no doubt the movement has been inflitrated , this was an interview I heard on talkradio, chilling


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2020)

Game of Thrones?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Statues, now books 😞

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/12/harper-lee-mark-twain-banned-minnesota-schools/

Click to expand...

A school district in Minnesota decides to remove them? A complete non-story. Anyone would think the right wing media are trying to deflect from the real issues.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2020)

drdel said:



			Scottish protests go ahead despite the Government, Council and Cops saying don't congregate.

The organisation BLM (UK) seems somewhat opaque and different from the US equivalent that has fund to over $100m: money from, among others, Soros and Ford to tackle racism.

Crowd funded to about £1m. No accounts, not registered, Key owners/managers/directors not named. BLM Fundraising said aims to : "Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the *abolition of police.*"

It would appear more Marxist in its aims. BLM UK state "We’re guided by a commitment to *dismantle imperialism, capitalism*, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain."

They also aim to 'defund' the Police and give the money to others.

Unfortunately it seems to me it makes the "Black Lives Matter' just looks like a banner statement rather than the genuine aims.
		
Click to expand...

Anti Racists v Sectarian promoters...….that's different.
I think a small section of the WoS community are missing the adrenaline rush they get during the marching season.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A school district in Minnesota decides to remove them? A complete non-story. Anyone would think the right wing media are trying to deflect from the real issues.
		
Click to expand...

Which is what, left wing Marxist infiltrating BLM. Normal service has been resumed and the majority in the middle ground who want to deal with the problems sensibly have been shouted out by the left and right.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anti Racists v Sectarian promoters...….that's different.
I think a small section of the WoS community are missing the adrenaline rush they get during the marching season.
		
Click to expand...

Or in your case, the football season.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Which is what, left wing Marxist infiltrating BLM. Normal service has been resumed and the majority in the middle ground who want to deal with the problems sensibly have been shouted out by the left and right.
		
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More deflection rhetoric. The overwhelming number of protests and protesters have been peaceful and well intentioned, but unfortunately some would rather talk about violence, infiltration and whatever. It's a classic tactic.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			More deflection rhetoric. The overwhelming number of protests and protesters have been peaceful and well intentioned, but unfortunately some would rather talk about violence, infiltration and whatever. It's a classic tactic.
		
Click to expand...

You just carry on calling me a racist and let the reality of life pass you by


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Were has he called you a racist?
		
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About a week ago, but ive been called worse but if he can’t see that just one person in the group goes rouge then it starts to lose impact.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			More deflection rhetoric. The overwhelming number of protests and protesters have been peaceful and well intentioned, but unfortunately *some would rather talk about violence, infiltration an*d whatever. It's a classic tactic.
		
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Hang on. There are currently laws against gathering and being in large groups and not maintaining 2m SD so the protesters' actions are illegal. Whether its 'peaceful' may apply to some of the law-breakers - but some are not in the least concerned about causing disruption.

Any protests by a organised group financed with a specifically documented and declared aim to abolish the Police is worrying. The objective of shining a light on racism is undeniably moral and right but if it looks like is it being high-jacked by people with less moral aims it is quite right that it should be discussed as it distracts from the cause.


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## IanM (Jun 20, 2020)

Funny how the scumbags who attach themselves to groups of any persuasion are either "completely representative of the whole" or utterly "unrepresentative of the whole" depending on a person's viewpoint.  

The wombats campaigning for defunding the police were out protesting against spending cuts last summer.

Ending racism starts with enforcing the law and calling out current serial offenders when you see them....

Book burning and defacing statues is pretty pointless.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			About a week ago, but ive been called worse but if he can’t see that just one person in the group goes rouge then it starts to lose impact.
		
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Really? I don't remember calling you a racist. Please remind me. I must have had too much rouge on at the time.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? I don't remember calling you a racist. Please remind me. I must have had too much rouge on at the time.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)




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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			About a week ago, but ive been called worse but if he can’t see that just one person in the group goes rouge then it starts to lose impact.
		
Click to expand...

I've gone through this thread from start to finish, and am unable to see where I called you a racist.

I did however find a claim from you that the people of Bristol had a democratic vote and voted to keep Colston's statue. It never happened.

I also found a claim from you that the Bomber Command Memorial was attacked during last week's protests. It didn't happen.

I think I can see a pattern emerging here.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I've gone through this thread from start to finish, and am unable to see where I called you a racist.

I did however find a claim from you that the people of Bristol had a democratic vote and voted to keep Colston's statue. It never happened.

I also found a claim from you that the Bomber Command Memorial was attacked during last week's protests. It didn't happen.

I think I can see a pattern emerging here.
		
Click to expand...

I was wrong about the Bristol post it was the local paper that held the poll and the Bomber Command post Was from MM so may have been mis information. I can only assume if you can no longer find it you deleted it but as I stated, I’m not concerned about what anyone on an internet site says about me, my heritage stops me from being easily offended, I’ve had the privilege of being insulted by professionals.

Still doesn’t deflect from the point made earlier unless you agree that violence and public disorder is acceptable as part of the BLM protest.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I was wrong about the Bristol post it was the local paper that held the poll and the Bomber Command post Was from MM so may have been mis information. I can only assume if you can no longer find it you deleted it
		
Click to expand...

Really? That's a pretty mind boggling post of excuses!


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Really? That's a pretty mind boggling post of excuses!
		
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Or I’m big enough to admit when I’m wrong. Are you.

And still no answer


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 20, 2020)

Guys
Maybe take a break, round circles going in are we  👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2020)

Bad news coming out of Reading allegedly connected to a BLM meeting https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...gardens-emergency-services-including-18459832


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## road2ruin (Jun 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bad news coming out of Reading allegedly connected to a BLM meeting https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...gardens-emergency-services-including-18459832

Click to expand...

3 dead and 2 in hospital apparently. The video is pretty horrendous.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			3 dead and 2 in hospital apparently. The video is pretty horrendous.
		
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I know. Have some very strong views about people that film at these sorts of incidents. Hope the police can find the person responsible as it seems he's still at large


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			How is it connected a something that finished several hours before?
		
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Initial reports indicated that was the case. Subsequently appears differently although knowing how popular the park is one has to question (and it is a huge surmisation on my part) whether it's feasible the people had attended and were simply enjoying a few drinks/socialising and were targeted for having been at the earlier rally. No doubt full details will emerge in the next few hours/days.


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## Kellfire (Jun 20, 2020)

Not reading back but I hope no one in here said all lives matter.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or I’m big enough to admit when I’m wrong. Are you.

And still no answer
		
Click to expand...

You never admitted you were wrong in accusing me of calling you a racist, instead, when you couldn't back it up, you accused me of deleting the post!

Very big of you


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## Fade and Die (Jun 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Not reading back but I hope no one in here said all lives matter.
		
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Fade and Die said:



			You probably think that my Old fashioned view that “All lives matter” is racist.
		
Click to expand...

Sure did.😂


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## backwoodsman (Jun 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bad news coming out of Reading allegedly connected to a BLM meeting https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...gardens-emergency-services-including-18459832

Click to expand...

Bad news certainly, but BLM connected? I think I'll take take the content of a Thames Valley police tweet at face value. " There is no indication that this incident is linked to the Black Lives Matter protest that took place in Reading today". 

Sadly Homer, thats how disinformation/misinformation/fake news/lies spreads. One person hears something and just passes it on. Then someone else ...


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## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I've gone through this thread from start to finish, and am unable to see where I called you a racist.



			Thankfully the mods deleted your posts pretty quickly iirc, but you were definitely labelling people as racists on here.
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

Not sure why I can't quote what you have just posted, but you are wrong, no one deleted any of my posts, thankfully or otherwise.  - Mods, if I am wrong, please correct me.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Beezerk - Not sure why I can't quote what you have just posted, but you are wrong, no one deleted any of my posts, thankfully or otherwise.  - Mods, if I am wrong, please correct me.
		
Click to expand...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 21, 2020)

Can we please stop calling other members out as racists / stop claiming they have been called racist, it’s not helpful and detracts from the issues.

As for Homers post , to be fair the bbc initially said that the incident took place following a BLM protest, this was later retracted and TVP have since confirmed that the incident was not related to the BLM protest in any way.

So allegations of misinformation are wide of the Mark, he was relaying what was being reported at the time.

Is that it for now?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Homers post clearly states “connected” to BLM Meeting, the BBC, and you above, have said “following” the BLM protest, 2 entirely different meanings.
		
Click to expand...

Now you really are splitting hairs

The initial report indicated a link between the two, that’s what he was relaying, it was  later found to not be the case.

I am not going to sanction anyone for merely reporting what the major news carriers were reporting.

Now go suck some more lemons 🍋


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 21, 2020)

Paul 
I read the bbc link when he put it up, at that time it clearly stated that “following a BLM protest”.......

When the bbc learnt that there wasn’t a link they edited the content to remove it 

I can’t be any clearer than that


We ask people to report posts that break forum rules, ...............


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## drdel (Jun 21, 2020)

It looks as if several of you need to go back to bed and then get out on the right side! 

Reading attacker is Lybian according to the TVP, they first said terrorist but have retracted. BLM claim it was not related to their activities. 

Time will tell. My sympathy is with the unfortunate people caught up in it. 

I'll let you get back to the bickering which seems to have replaced debate on this thread.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2020)

Careful folks  the thread has gone Orwellian


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## patricks148 (Jun 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Careful folks  the thread has gone Orwellian
		
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Hardly, if posts break forum rules, like swearing for instance it will be removed


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Hardly, if posts break forum rules, like swearing for instance it will be removed
		
Click to expand...

No swearing in any of my posts for clarification.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No swearing in any of my posts for clarification.
		
Click to expand...

For clarification you posted up a video that contained rather a lot of swearing, that’s why it was removed 

Now please can we get on with our lives


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 22, 2020)

Thread has been reopened after a tidy up.
Any further agro will result in the thread being closed permanently.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2020)

Tough scene for Nascar. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53132933


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2020)

The woman is as toxic as Hopkins doing more harm than good.


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