# Merge in turn



## theoneandonly (Dec 9, 2021)

Why do some find it so hard to get merge in turn right? The dual carriage way in to my town always has people queuing down the left and I and others simply drive down the right and merge in. This often results in flashing lights, horn beeping and wanker signs but I don't care, once your at the merge keep close to the car in front and your fine, it's track position as I like to say to my F1 loving son.

Just use both lanes as intended


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## BiMGuy (Dec 9, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Why do some find it so hard to get merge in turn right? The dual carriage way in to my town always has people queuing down the left and I and others simply drive down the right and merge in. This often results in flashing lights, horn beeping and wanker signs but I don't care, once your at the merge keep close to the car in front and your fine, it's track position as I like to say to my F1 loving son.

Just use both lanes as intended
		
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Because some people are morons.


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## Billysboots (Dec 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Because some people are morons.
		
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…….is the right answer.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 9, 2021)

Oooh , where's my popcorn?


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## Imurg (Dec 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Oooh , where's my popcorn?
		
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You ate it last time this came up...


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## fundy (Dec 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You ate it last time this came up...

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and several times since


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Why do some find it so hard to get merge in turn right? The dual carriage way in to my town always has people queuing down the left and I and others simply drive down the right and merge in. This often results in flashing lights, horn beeping and wanker signs but I don't care, once your at the merge keep close to the car in front and your fine, it's track position as I like to say to my F1 loving son.

Just use both lanes as intended
		
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Many years ago I had this issue every evening for about 6 months or more on the A21 from T Wells approaching the M25. I ended up finding a different way home that included a round of golf - and still got home earlier and more relaxed than I would have 'merging'.


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## SteveJay (Dec 9, 2021)

What is this strange concept of "merging". 
In such a scenario surely it is the objective to drive as close as possible to the car in front to stop all those impatient gits from cutting in front of you


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 9, 2021)

I posted about this issue the other week. A lorry behind me blocked the lane off so I phoned the water company he worked for and gave his reg in as we was sat in traffic. Folk were mounting the central reservation going round him.

People just don’t like others gaining a perceived advantage.


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## NearHull (Dec 9, 2021)

When we lived in Germany many years ago, ‘zipping‘, aka ‘merge in turn’, was the legal requirement.  Given the German trait to obedience, the system worked.   The Germans drive in accordance with laws, we drive to a code.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 9, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Why do some find it so hard to get merge in turn right? The dual carriage way in to my town always has people queuing down the left and I and others simply drive down the right and merge in. This often results in flashing lights, horn beeping and wanker signs but I don't care, once your at the merge keep close to the car in front and your fine, it's track position as I like to say to my F1 loving son.

Just use both lanes as intended
		
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Just queue up like then rest of them!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2021)

Maybe queueing is cultural here and for many it seems wrong for people to go past them as they're waiting.  
Not making a defence just a suggestion as to why it happens.


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe queueing is cultural here and for many it seems wrong for people to go past them as they're waiting.
Not making a defence just a suggestion as to why it happens.
		
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Yes, that's certainly part of it. But so is 'whinge'ing about others getting a perceived 'unfair' advantage! Merge in turn, if practiced correctly, works well, but can certainly cause blood pressure to rise for some.


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## Slab (Dec 10, 2021)

I think the issue is pretty clear. There are two recommendations on merging in turn, one for slow stop/start traffic and one for free flowing traffic

For the former its to use all lanes and merge at the end (at lane closure) For the latter you should merge early to keep traffic flowing. 
The problem crops up when traffic was free flowing (so folks have merged early) and ‘something’ happens to quickly turn it into stop/start traffic

That ‘something’ could be caused by a dozen different reasons but typically a ‘Q jumper’ leaving it too late to merge for free flowing traffic, cutting in too close to other vehicles and causing the free flowing lane to concertina and even stop 

So now we have one lane with cars all positioned as if it was a free flowing merge but its now stop/start traffic, and the traffic never un-merges back into two lanes… now our Hero arrives…

They see its stop/start traffic and one lane is not really being used, so to them there’s no reason not to use the emptier lane and merge at the lane closure but perhaps also understandably the folks who’ve already correctly merged are kinda pissed at this perceived lack of road manners. In no time the shenanigans all start and no one wins the argument

In an ideal world what would happen is that when the merged single lane free flowing traffic begins to slow & is no longer free flowing, traffic should form two lanes again from the tail of the existing merged Q… everyone happy and everyone getting through in roughly the order in which they arrived… but it’ll never happen


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## DaveR (Dec 10, 2021)

Option 1 is join the back of the queue.
Option 2 is push your way to the front.
Which option you take depends on how much respect you have for those around you.


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## DaveR (Dec 10, 2021)

Slab said:



			I think the issue is pretty clear. There are two recommendations on merging in turn, one for slow stop/start traffic and one for free flowing traffic

For the former its to use all lanes and merge at the end (at lane closure) For the latter you should merge early to keep traffic flowing.
The problem crops up when traffic was free flowing (so folks have merged early) and ‘something’ happens to quickly turn it into stop/start traffic

That ‘something’ could be caused by a dozen different reasons but typically a ‘Q jumper’ leaving it too late to merge for free flowing traffic, cutting in too close to other vehicles and causing the free flowing lane to concertina and even stop

So now we have one lane with cars all positioned as if it was a free flowing merge but its now stop/start traffic, and the traffic never un-merges back into two lanes… now our Hero arrives…

They see its stop/start traffic and one lane is not really being used, so to them there’s no reason not to use the emptier lane and merge at the lane closure but perhaps also understandably the folks who’ve already correctly merged are kinda pissed at this perceived lack of road manners. In no time the shenanigans all start and no one wins the argument

In an ideal world what would happen is that when the merged single lane free flowing traffic begins to slow & is no longer free flowing, traffic should form two lanes again from the tail of the existing merged Q… everyone happy and everyone getting through in roughly the order in which they arrived… but it’ll never happen
		
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Spot on.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Option 1 is join the back of the queue.
Option 2 is push your way to the front.
Which option you take depends on how much respect you have for those around you.
		
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Option 3 is to learn how to use merge in turn properly and not cause an unnecessarily long que in the first place.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 10, 2021)

Maybe those in "the queue" have already merged as intended, but still others continue push down to the front to merge at the last moment. Can cause a bigger bottleneck as both lanes now jammed whilst they push in. It should work better if people don't all wait to do it at the last available point.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Maybe those in "the queue" have already merged as intended, but still others continue push down to the front to merge at the last moment. Can cause a bigger bottleneck as both lanes now jammed whilst they push in. It should work better if people don't all wait to do it at the last available point.
		
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If they are in a long que, chances are they have merged too soon. Which is quite common. And in the view of some on here, will have pushed in. So why not go all the way to the front?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 10, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			What is this strange concept of "merging".
In such a scenario surely it is the objective to drive as close as possible to the car in front to stop all those impatient gits *people who know how to drive* from cutting in front of you 

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Fixed it


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 10, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Maybe those in "the queue" have already merged as intended, but still others continue push down to the front to merge at the last moment. Can cause a bigger bottleneck as both lanes now jammed whilst they push in. It should work better if people don't all wait to do it at the last available point.
		
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You're meant to drive to the merge point.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 10, 2021)

Slab said:



			I think the issue is pretty clear. There are two recommendations on merging in turn, one for slow stop/start traffic and one for free flowing traffic

For the former its to use all lanes and merge at the end (at lane closure) For the latter you should merge early to keep traffic flowing.
The problem crops up when traffic was free flowing (so folks have merged early) and ‘something’ happens to quickly turn it into stop/start traffic

That ‘something’ could be caused by a dozen different reasons but typically a ‘Q jumper’ leaving it too late to merge for free flowing traffic, cutting in too close to other vehicles and causing the free flowing lane to concertina and even stop

So now we have one lane with cars all positioned as if it was a free flowing merge but its now stop/start traffic, and the traffic never un-merges back into two lanes… now our Hero arrives…

They see its stop/start traffic and one lane is not really being used, so to them there’s no reason not to use the emptier lane and merge at the lane closure but perhaps also understandably the folks who’ve already correctly merged are kinda pissed at this perceived lack of road manners. In no time the shenanigans all start and no one wins the argument

In an ideal world what would happen is that when the merged single lane free flowing traffic begins to slow & is no longer free flowing, traffic should form two lanes again from the tail of the existing merged Q… everyone happy and everyone getting through in roughly the order in which they arrived… but it’ll never happen
		
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This is all wrong


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I posted about this issue the other week. A lorry behind me blocked the lane off so I phoned the water company he worked for and gave his reg in as we was sat in traffic. Folk were mounting the central reservation going round him.

People just don’t like others gaining a perceived advantage.
		
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So it's ok for you to use your phone whilst driving and for others to drive dangerously like that just because you were all having to get in line?
Think about the lorry...slower to pull away, needs longer distances to stop and a much larger breaking zone and how all those car drivers will see him as the "target" to get in front of because he has space in front of him.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 10, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So it's ok for you to use your phone whilst driving and for others to drive dangerously like that just because you were all having to get in line?
Think about the lorry...slower to pull away, needs longer distances to stop and a much larger breaking zone and how all those car drivers will see him as the "target" to get in front of because he has space in front of him.
		
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What if an emegency vehicle was trying to get past the lorry?


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## theoneandonly (Dec 10, 2021)

This particular one near me can often queue a long way back. You do get the odd road warrior thinking they can block both lanes.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What if an emegency vehicle was trying to get past the lorry?
		
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I'm quite sure the driver would have been aware long before the blue light reached him, he's not driving a car


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So it's ok for you to use your phone whilst driving and for others to drive dangerously like that just because you were all having to get in line?
Think about the lorry...slower to pull away, needs longer distances to stop and a much larger breaking zone and how all those car drivers will see him as the "target" to get in front of because he has space in front of him.
		
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Maybe his car has hands free, which as far as I am aware is perfectly legal to use whilst driving?


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## SaintHacker (Dec 10, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm quite sure the driver would have been aware long before the blue light reached him, he's not driving a car

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You can be as sure as you like, I've seen it actually happen though


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## nickjdavis (Dec 10, 2021)

I wonder if some folks actions are governed by how they were taught.

When I passed my test in the 1980's I always remember being taught that the primary rule of the road was "keep left". So you kept to the left hand lane where possible and when driving in lanes, you kept to the left hand side of the lane you were in. The other thing that I remember being taught was to get yourself in the correct lane for where you wanted to go, as early as possible. 

So keeping the above in mind....in the instance of seeing signs on a multi-lane road that indicated that one of the lanes was closed, it was always habitual to get in the "open" lane as early as was sensibly possible....rather than driving all the way up to the blockage and then pulling in.

I must admit that it's my impression that this zip-merging mularkey is something "relatively" recent and may not be something that drivers of a certain vintage are aware of being the correct thing to do....up until maybe 7 or 8 years ago I'd have argued that getting in the open lane early was the right thing to do....rather than zip-merging.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I wonder if some folks actions are governed by how they were taught.

When I passed my test in the 1980's I always remember being taught that the primary rule of the road was "keep left". So you kept to the left hand lane where possible and when driving in lanes, you kept to the left hand side of the lane you were in. The other thing that I remember being taught was to get yourself in the correct lane for where you wanted to go, as early as possible.

So keeping the above in mind....in the instance of seeing signs on a multi-lane road that indicated that one of the lanes was closed, it was always habitual to get in the "open" lane as early as was sensibly possible....rather than driving all the way up to the blockage and then pulling in.

I must admit that it's my impression that this zip-merging mularkey is something "relatively" recent and may not be something that drivers of a certain vintage are aware of being the correct thing to do....up until maybe 7 or 8 years ago I'd have argued that getting in the open lane early was the right thing to do....rather than zip-merging.
		
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I passed my test in the mid 90s and it was a thing back then.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 10, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're meant to drive to the merge point.
		
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Is the merge point similar to The ‘Aim Point’ ? Whoops wrong thread!


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## Imurg (Dec 10, 2021)

It could have been taught last week....most will have still forgotten it......


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're meant to drive to the merge point.
		
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Totally agree.
Merging generally works very well on North British roads.
South of Preston is a completely different story.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2021)

Imurg said:



			It could have been taught last week....most will have still forgotten it......
		
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I've seen you driving mate, and it all over the road - oh sorry! It's not a golf matter 😁😁


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## DaveR (Dec 14, 2021)

I drove through Salisbury in rush hour today. There were 2 lanes of traffic approaching a roundabout. The left lane was much shorter and moving quicker but it is left turn only at the roundabout.  The right lane is straight on only. Lots of cars went down the left lane then pushed in near the end. Is this acceptable?


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I drove through Salisbury in rush hour today. There were 2 lanes of traffic approaching a roundabout. The left lane was much shorter and moving quicker but it is left turn only at the roundabout.  The right lane is straight on only. Lots of cars went down the left lane then pushed in near the end. Is this acceptable?
		
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Not in my opinion and if you did it on your driving test you'd fail for noncompliance with a road sign or marking.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Not in my opinion and if you did it on your driving test you'd fail for noncompliance with a road sign or marking.
		
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Doesn't that depend where the sign/marking is?
If you were initially in the left lane (from long before the bottleneck), at what point would it be legit to indicate intention to change lanes and subsequently do so.


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

As soon as it becomes noticeable  - and that, usually, means a bit further back than a car length from the junction.
Even then, technically,  you should go the wrong way ie left, find somewhere to turn around and try again.
99.9999% of people who use the left lane incorrectly in this scenario would not even consider doing that.
We get kids failing all the time doing this sort of thing...as soon as you hold up traffic in this scenario you're in the wrong.


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## DaveR (Dec 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Not in my opinion and if you did it on your driving test you'd fail for noncompliance with a road sign or marking.
		
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To clarify, there are big clear signs telling you which lane to be in a looooong way back from the roundabout.


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			To clarify, there are big clear signs telling you which lane to be in a looooong way back from the roundabout.
		
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Then, in Driving Instructor parlance, they are Peasants.....and should be taken out and shot at dawn....


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## DaveR (Dec 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Then, in Driving Instructor parlance, they are Peasants.....and should be taken out and shot at dawn....
		
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And another edit......it was rush hour and I'm sure 99.9% of the drivers were locals that know exactly which lane they need to be in


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			As soon as it becomes noticeable  - and that, usually, means a bit further back than a car length from the junction.
Even then, technically,  you should go the wrong way ie left, find somewhere to turn around and try again.
99.9999% of people who use the left lane incorrectly in this scenario would not even consider doing that.
We get kids failing all the time doing this sort of thing...as soon as you hold up traffic in this scenario you're in the wrong.
		
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At these particular junctions where there’s a tailback in one lane I like to take the empty lane purposefully,  turn round and then go the way I intended and skip the queue. 

Is this wrong? 🤣


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			At these particular junctions where there’s a tailback in one lane I like to take the empty lane purposefully,  turn round and then go the way I intended and skip the queue.

Is this wrong? 🤣
		
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So...go left, turn around and go left again..effectively going straight ahead..?
No problem with that at all.
As long as its easy to turn round and doesn't end up taking longer..I do it myself at a couple of junctions here..long queue in the right hand lane moving very slowly, left lane clear.
Dive down it, there's a roundabout 300 yards down the road, do a u turn and turn left again.


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## adam6177 (Dec 14, 2021)

Rumour has it that a queue of 100 cars is the same length as two queues of 50 cars.

Difference then being that one of the queues moves freely whilst the other is slowed down by people having to take turns to join the new single lane.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			Rumour has it that a queue of 100 cars is the same length as two queues of 50 cars.

Difference then being that one of the queues moves freely whilst the other is slowed down by people having to take turns to join the new single lane.
		
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This and the previous post make a valid point.  In the case of merge in turn the pinch point is often a roundabout in which case the outside lane should be for turning right or turning about.   In just about every case there's no doubt that people who take the outside lane do it to cut in and save time at other drivers expense. It does not save time by merging at the pinch point from an outside lane.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I drove through Salisbury in rush hour today.
		
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You have my deepest sympathies...


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## theoneandonly (Dec 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I drove through Salisbury in rush hour today. There were 2 lanes of traffic approaching a roundabout. The left lane was much shorter and moving quicker but it is left turn only at the roundabout.  The right lane is straight on only. Lots of cars went down the left lane then pushed in near the end. Is this acceptable?
		
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Spank it down the right in the Taycan and cut it somewhere near the front.


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Maybe those in "the queue" have already merged as intended, but still others continue push down to the front to merge at the last moment. Can cause a bigger bottleneck as both lanes now jammed whilst they push in. It should work better if people don't all wait to do it at the last available point.
		
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They obviously haven’t merged as was intended, the intended bit is where the arrows are not a couple of hundred meters before. Even though many drivers ignore them, there are places on the 303 which show you were to merge. Those that merge early are the problem.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

We have a ‘change lane merge’ on the towns one way system…two roads from directly opposite directions coming together at junction turning into the same two lane one-way road, with traffic from ‘right‘ side having to get to LH lane after turning and traffic from ‘left’ side having to get to RH lane.

Too often cars from either side stop immediately they start to turn and unless they are allowed in by car from other direction they block their side.  If they do the right thing and clear the junction; drive a bit down and then indicate to merge into the lane they want to get into, often they can’t as drivers in the lane they want to get in to think they are pushing in ahead of them…and so it goes on.

Most of the time with locals - who know the score - two drivers who want to switch lanes will both clear the junction and then jointly see what they other wants to do, and one will pause and they both switch.  But with non-locals - especially if following their sat nav instructions to change lane immediately, it’s often it’s a real mess with the junction and hence also the pedestrian crossings at the junction blocked up.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 15, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I drove through Salisbury in rush hour today. There were 2 lanes of traffic approaching a roundabout. The left lane was much shorter and moving quicker but it is left turn only at the roundabout.  The right lane is straight on only. Lots of cars went down the left lane then pushed in near the end. Is this acceptable?
		
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Entirely different scenario. No it isn't, is this rhetorical?


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## Rooter (Dec 15, 2021)

OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!


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## Wilson (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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I do this all the time!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

Wilson said:



			I do this all the time!!
		
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Likewise do it at a local roundabout where I want to turn left but LH lane of two approaching is queued back with traffic wanting to go straight on.  Rh lane is clearer so I just drive up that lane; onto the roundabout, and go all the way round. Seems perfectly ok to me.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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'I remember one of my aunts demonstrating this process to me whilst I was learning to drive, it's stuck with me ever since. Don't always do it, but have been known to on occasion


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Likewise do it at a local roundabout where I want to turn left but LH lane of two approaching is queued back with traffic wanting to go straight on.  Rh lane is clearer so I just drive up that lane; onto the roundabout, and go all the way round. Seems perfectly ok to me.
		
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And everyone who does this adds to the delay for people using the correct lane to turn left


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## Rooter (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And everyone who does this adds to the delay for people using the correct lane to turn left
		
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Yeh, but they are behind me now in the loser queue. So meh.


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## larmen (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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If in doubt, stick to the right. Worst case is an unnecessary lap. If you get it. Wrong on the left you might have to travel mikes before turning around safely.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			They obviously haven’t merged as was intended, the intended bit is where the arrows are not a couple of hundred meters before. Even though many drivers ignore them, there are places on the 303 which show you were to merge. Those that merge early are the problem.
		
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I'm sure when I was taught to drive some 40 odd years back, that you should move in as soon as. That way you effectively have a single line that keeps moving. Rightly or wrongly, the jams only happen when people shoot down the inside of 100 cars queueing with the sole intention of pushing in. Surely that has to stop the line that should be moving. I don't know whether the "rules" have changed on merge in turn, never thought about it until this thread, but, if everyone started merging earlier, the one single line has to move quicker than it will if people wait until the last minute to effectively jump the queue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And everyone who does this adds to the delay for people using the correct lane to turn left
		
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It can’t see how it delays anyone.  The LH lane queueing traffic generally leaves the exit from the roundabout I want to use clear. I can drive up the RH lane and onto the inside lane of the roundabout (it’s a two lane roundabout). I go right round using the inside lane, and then straight off as the queueing traffic has left my exit clear.  By doing this I also don’t queue in LH lane and so a driver behind me approaching the roundabout and wishing to go straight on isn’t stuck behind me.👍.  Fortunately I don’t have to bother doing this very often as the queue is usually pretty short or non-existent.

Problems can arise when drivers wanting to go straight on go up RH lane approaching, and then trying and push in, either at end of the queue or indeed once on the roundabout trying to get from inside lane of the roundabout into the outside lane.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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Absolutely acceptable. But don’t let the others know!


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## Whereditgo (Dec 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I'm sure when I was taught to drive some 40 odd years back, that you should move in as soon as. That way you effectively have a single line that keeps moving. Rightly or wrongly, the jams only happen when people shoot down the inside of 100 cars queueing* with the sole intention of pushing in*. Surely that has to stop the line that should be moving. I don't know whether the "rules" have changed on merge in turn, never thought about it until this thread, but, if everyone started merging earlier, the one single line has to move quicker than it will if people wait until the last minute to effectively jump the queue.
		
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They're not pushing in though, they are using the road as it was intended, take a section of a dual carriageway road that is reduced to a single lane with cones for roadworks. The risks to the workforce and road users will have been assessed and the place at which the traffic needs to merge into one lane decided upon and marked by the start of the cones. Failing to use both lanes and then merge causes a longer tailback of traffic which can then impact on traffic joining the affected road from the previous junction. for e.g.

There was exactly this scenario on my route into work for several months, despite there being a large temporary flashing sign saying "use both lanes then merge" every morning some clown would try to block both lanes to stop the traffic they perceived to be queue jumpers, which caused the slip road to back up, the roundabout above the main route to back up and all the feeder roads onto the roundabout to back up.


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## Slab (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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I did this in my teens at one location with same logic as you, but if I recall I read that it wasn't ok to do this... no idea what part of highway code but i'll have a look again


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## Orikoru (Dec 15, 2021)

Slab said:



			I did this in my teens at one location with same logic as you, but if I recall I read that it wasn't ok to do this... no idea what part of highway code but i'll have a look again
		
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To be fair, you'd just claim you were in the wrong lane accidentally and you thought it safer to go round and then come off than to try and cut into the left lane. How would it be policed?


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## Old Skier (Dec 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I'm sure when I was taught to drive some 40 odd years back, that you should move in as soon as. That way you effectively have a single line that keeps moving. Rightly or wrongly, the jams only happen when people shoot down the inside of 100 cars queueing with the sole intention of pushing in. Surely that has to stop the line that should be moving. I don't know whether the "rules" have changed on merge in turn, never thought about it until this thread, but, if everyone started merging earlier, the one single line has to move quicker than it will if people wait until the last minute to effectively jump the queue.
		
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More “Use both lanes” signs might resolve the issue.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I'm sure when I was taught to drive some 40 odd years back, that you should move in as soon as. That way you effectively have a single line that keeps moving. Rightly or wrongly, the jams only happen when people shoot down the inside of 100 cars queueing with the sole intention of pushing in. Surely that has to stop the line that should be moving. ...
		
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There was probably no 'Merge in Turn' instruction/concept back then. 'Merge in Turn' means exactly that - 1 from left lane; 1 from right lane.Lanes _should_ move at same speed and be 'backed up' for similar distances.  


need_my_wedge said:



			...if everyone started merging earlier, the one single line has to move quicker than it will if people wait until the last minute to effectively jump the queue.
		
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 And there's both the falacy and the problem! At the bottleneck/tailback, the 'single lane' traffic can/does only move at a fixed rate irrespective of where cars got into it. If folk allow merging 'too early', not only does that slow the flow of the 'single' lane down, but others in the 'about to end' lane simply continue further along that lane to merge. The 'fair' solution is to not merge until only the (1) merging vehicle can merge (aka 'merge in turn') and only let 1 vehicle in. That way, the queues travel at the same speed. Unfortunately, that's not how the 'psychology' of queue-ing traffic works!! Oh and it gets 'more interesting' when more lanes are involved!


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2021)

Like I said, I didn't really have a concept of "merge in turn" until this thread, but to be honest, I usually let one car in at the funnel point and always have done. In future, guess I'll just drive to the funnel and merge


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## Imurg (Dec 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			OK, what about if you want to go left at a 3 exit roundabout. Dual lanes to it, left lane for left only, right lane for straight on or right.

Is it acceptable to when the left lane is backed up, to use the right lane and do a complete lap of the roundabout and then effectively go left?

I hope so, cos that has saved me literally hours in Newbury!!
		
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Technically you're not breaking the rules.......non-technically most people will think you're a knob..


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Technically you're not breaking the rules.......non-technically most people will think you're a knob..
		
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Or someone with 'local knowledge'!


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## Rooter (Dec 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Technically you're not breaking the rules.......non-technically most people will think you're a knob..
		
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fair cop


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Technically you're not breaking the rules.......non-technically most people will think you're a knob..
		
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In truth I doubt that many, if any, in the LH queue will spot that he passed them; went round the roundabout, then took the left turn exit. That aside, the queue they are in only goes as fast as those in front going straight on, and doing what is suggested doesn’t delay or extend that in any way. In fact it lessens the time spent queuing for those following him compared with that with him sitting in the LH queue in front of them.👍😉


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## larmen (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			And there's both the falacy and the problem! At the bottleneck/tailback, the 'single lane' traffic can/does only move at a fixed rate irrespective of where cars got into it. If folk allow merging 'too early', not only does that slow the flow of the 'single' lane down, but others in the 'about to end' lane simply continue further along that lane to merge. The 'fair' solution is to not merge until only the (1) merging vehicle can merge (aka 'merge in turn') and only let 1 vehicle in. That way, the queues travel at the same speed.
		
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I like to add that when everyone merges at the same, right spot, the merging will be much smoother than when you have people trying to guess where and when people merges and also actively trying to stop people from merging.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In truth I doubt that many, if any, in the LH queue will spot that he passed them; went round the roundabout, then took the left turn exit. That aside, the queue they are in only goes as fast as those in front going straight on, and doing what is suggested doesn’t delay or extend that in any way. In fact it lessens the time spent queuing for those following him compared with that with him sitting in the LH queue in front of them.👍😉
		
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Except, the car going all the way round the roundabout will then have priority over those going straight on or turning left from his original direction of travel.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

larmen said:



			I like to add that when everyone merges at the same, right spot, the merging will be much smoother than when you have people trying to guess where and when people merges and also actively trying to stop people from merging.
		
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I agree. But virtually every driver will have a different attitude about 'where is the right place to merge'! 
There's an argument for signage stating 'Don't merge yet' and 'Merge here' placed appropriately.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It can’t see how it delays anyone.  The LH lane queueing traffic generally leaves the exit from the roundabout I want to use clear. I can drive up the RH lane and onto the inside lane of the roundabout (it’s a two lane roundabout). I go right round using the inside lane, and then straight off as the queueing traffic has left my exit clear.  By doing this I also don’t queue in LH lane and so a driver behind me approaching the roundabout and wishing to go straight on isn’t stuck behind me.👍.  Fortunately I don’t have to bother doing this very often as the queue is usually pretty short or non-existent.

Problems can arise when drivers wanting to go straight on go up RH lane approaching, and then trying and push in, either at end of the queue or indeed once on the roundabout trying to get from inside lane of the roundabout into the outside lane.
		
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Its pushing in and you know it. Why shouldn't you wait in line like others.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I agree. But virtually every driver will have a different attitude about 'where is the right place to merge'!
There's an argument for signage stating 'Don't merge yet' and 'Merge here' placed appropriately.
		
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There are often signs saying 'Get in lane' but for many they drive to the absolute maximum merge point.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There are often signs saying 'Get in lane' but for many they drive to the absolute maximum merge point.
		
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But they are 'in lane'! Is there an arrow pointing to the 'required' lane?
My assertion is that drivers SHOULD drive to the max merge point, then 'merge in turn' as per signage.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			But they are 'in lane'! Is there an arrow pointing to the 'required' lane?
My assertion is that drivers SHOULD drive to the max merge point, then 'merge in turn' as per signage.
		
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Yes, there are often arrows indicating you to change lane.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, there are often arrows indicating you to change lane.
		
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Then, if placed too far from the 'end' of the lane, THEY are the cause of any issues/frustration.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Then, if placed too far from the 'end' of the lane, THEY are the cause of any issues/frustration.
		
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Not at all, the frustration is where the arrows inform people to merge early and they ignore it.


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## Old Skier (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, there are often arrows indicating you to change lane.
		
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Not on the 303, they clearly state “use both lanes”.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not on the 303, they clearly state “use both lanes”.
		
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'Often' not 'Always'


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## DaveR (Dec 15, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			They're not pushing in though, they are using the road as it was intended, take a section of a dual carriageway road that is reduced to a single lane with cones for roadworks. The risks to the workforce and road users will have been assessed and the place at which the traffic needs to merge into one lane decided upon and marked by the start of the cones. Failing to use both lanes and then merge causes a longer tailback of traffic which can then impact on traffic joining the affected road from the previous junction. for e.g.

There was exactly this scenario on my route into work for several months, despite there being a large temporary flashing sign saying "use both lanes then merge" every morning some clown would try to block both lanes to stop the traffic they perceived to be queue jumpers, which caused the slip road to back up, the roundabout above the main route to back up and all the feeder roads onto the roundabout to back up.
		
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If you can see the merge ahead and joining the back of the queue doesn't impact any other junctions then just do it. That way the traffic keeps moving instead of being slowed down by cars merging. I've seen traffic carry on moving at good speed instead of becoming stop/start.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not at all, the frustration is where the arrows inform people to merge early and they ignore it.
		
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Unless you've questioned every driver involved, I'd suggest you are making an invalid assumption - perhaps based on your own frustration!
Depending on how far from the 'merge point' the signs were, I'd be frustrated with whoever placed the sign - or failed to move it when the merge-point changed.

Btw. As I can't remember having seen actually seen the arrow signs you refer to (and assuming they are directives to 'do it now', the (mis-positioned imo) 'arrows' would be the most frustrating element of the queue/merge exercise.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			'Often' not 'Always'
		
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Que?


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2021)

We have some newish local roadworks, and they do have merg in turn signs up and everything does work. However I have never seen them on motorways or main A roads where you just have the distance to signs counting down from 800 yds and these are the places that cause the annoyance because of those drivers who force their way to the cones instead of getting in an open lane long before like most others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Its pushing in and you know it. Why shouldn't you wait in line like others.
		
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Its not really pushing in though is it, as when I do this (rare) I don’t push in - I just drive through a gap in a queue of traffic going a different direction to me, with the cars both sides of the gap always going straight on and not the direction I’m heading - _always_ as the cars before and after the gap would have turned to head in my direction of travel were they going my way.😉


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Its not really pushing in though is it, as when I do this (rare) I don’t push in - I just drive through a gap in a queue of traffic going a different direction to me.
		
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Don’t forget your testing your tyres grip!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Its not really pushing in though is it, as when I do this (rare) I don’t push in - I just drive through a gap in a queue of traffic going a different direction to me, with the cars both sides of the gap always going straight on and not the direction I’m heading - _always_ as the cars before and after the gap would have turned to head in my direction of travel were they going my way.😉
		
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Didnt understand any of that but it's still bypassing the queue you should be in (pushing in)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Que?
		
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Pardon


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Pardon
		
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Indeed


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



*Didnt understand any of that* but it's still bypassing the queue you should be in (pushing in)
		
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Yet you still proceeded to comment/provide a contra view!

Btw See post 84 for an alternative.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt understand any of that but it's still bypassing the queue you should be in (pushing in)
		
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I’m certainly bypassing the queue, but I am never actually rejoining it. I also happen to know that most of the traffic that I am bypassing will be going straight on, because I usually sit in the queue - and it does…👍


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m certainly bypassing the queue, but I am never actually rejoining it. I also happen to know that most of the traffic that I am bypassing will be going straight on, because I usually sit in the queue - and it does…👍
		
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Irrelevant.  You have no idea where they are going and should be waiting your turn.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed
		
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Pardon 🙄


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Pardon 🙄
		
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Kindly stop repeating youself/posting inane replies!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Yet you still proceeded to comment/provide a contra view!

Btw See post 84 for an alternative.
		
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'Que' what?  An abbreviation of Quebec, A Spanish question?  Explain yourself me old bean!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly stop repeating youself with inane replies!
		
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You started it 😂


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You started it 😂
		
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I believe I asked a sensible question, albeit in quasi-Spanish, about your weird post #81. A Manuel style query seemed better than simply 'WTF'!
Or should I simply refer the entire ridiculous non-conversation to Mods!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I believe I asked a sensible question, albeit in quasi-Spanish, about your weird post #81. A Manuel style query seemed better than simply 'WTF'!
Or should I simply refer the entire ridiculous non-conversation to Mods!
		
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Yes, do that.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, do that.
		
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Done! Now act your age!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 15, 2021)

You three should have your own sub category on the forum. You could use all of the unnecessary punctuation you see fit. The rest of us could dip in and out as we see fit. Like watching some kind of Victorian curiosity act!!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I believe I asked a sensible question, albeit in quasi-Spanish, about your weird post #81. A Manuel style query seemed better than simply 'WTF'!
Or should I simply refer the entire ridiculous non-conversation to Mods!
		
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The Mods response is for the both of you to grow up and stop wasting our time

If you have nothing to add, then please add nothing 😡


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Irrelevant.  You have no idea where they are going and should be waiting your turn.
		
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But I don't impact or inconvenience any other driver whatsoever and so don't see the problem. Anyway. I do it so rarely I am not going to fret too much on it. 🥰


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## Don Barzini (Dec 17, 2021)

Correct way is to use all available lanes when approaching a merge point. Simple as that. 

If there’s 100 vehicles queuing in the left lane and zero in the right lane, 50 of them are driving incorrectly. 50 of them should be in the right hand lane. And if they were, the queue wouldn’t be as long, everyone would get through quicker and hey presto, number 101 wouldn’t be able to “push in”. 

I’ve long thought there should be official “public information” adverts on TV about this kind of stuff.
People have it so ingrained in their head that they absolutely MUST join a queue if they see one that they will never change unless the info comes from an “official” source.


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## Slab (Dec 17, 2021)

Don Barzini said:



*Correct way is to use all available lanes when approaching a merge point. Simple as that.*

If there’s 100 vehicles queuing in the left lane and zero in the right lane, 50 of them are driving incorrectly. 50 of them should be in the right hand lane. And if they were, the queue wouldn’t be as long, everyone would get through quicker and hey presto, number 101 wouldn’t be able to “push in”.

I’ve long thought there should be official “public information” adverts on TV about this kind of stuff.
People have it so ingrained in their head that they absolutely MUST join a queue if they see one that they will never change unless the info comes from an “official” source.
		
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Although probably cause a bit of chaos if the traffic is flowing through the pinch point at 40mph though or if the traffic is pretty lite and cars moved out to the emptier lane just to use all available lanes 

I know you didn’t mean use all available lanes in all circumstances but just illustrating its not quite simple 

Use all lanes up to the lane closure only works when traffic is slow enough *and *heavy enough... and its those two measures (what is slow enough and busy enough) that are variable in the minds of each driver which is why some Q and others use empty lane


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slab said:



			Although probably cause a bit of chaos if the traffic is flowing through the pinch point at 40mph though or if the traffic is pretty lite and cars moved out to the emptier lane just to use all available lanes

I know you didn’t mean use all available lanes in all circumstances but just illustrating its not quite simple 

Use all lanes up to the lane closure only works when traffic is slow enough *and *heavy enough... and its those two measures (what is slow enough and busy enough) that are variable in the minds of each driver which is why some Q and others use empty lane
		
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It's only a problem when traffic is slow and/or heavy, so nobody shoud cares if traffic is flowing well through the pinch point. Those in the 'empty' lane will naturally fear/realise that they have to merge significantly before the pinch point, otherwise they will be stuck in the empty lane until some kind person allows them in.

It's different in the, far more normal, instances where the pace of the 'full' lane is slow (5mph or so). That's when both lanes should be used equally and 'merge in turn' applied as directed!


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## Slab (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			It's only a problem when traffic is slow and/or heavy, so nobody shoud cares if traffic is flowing well through the pinch point. Those in the 'empty' lane will naturally fear/realise that they have to merge significantly before the pinch point, otherwise they will be stuck in the empty lane until some kind person allows them in.

It's different in the, far more normal, instances where the pace of the 'full' lane is slow (5mph or so). That's when both lanes should be used equally and 'merge in turn' applied as directed!
		
Click to expand...

I know its far more normal. 
I'd even say that almost exclusively; at peak rush hour all lanes _will be in use_ ahead of a merge, that's not the problem either. 5am Sunday or Monday evening rush hour, everything works as expected

What I'm suggesting is the perceived Q jumper problem generally happens when its transitioning from a quiet road and is getting a bit busier/slower


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slab said:



			...
What I'm suggesting is the perceived Q jumper problem generally happens when its transitioning from a quiet road and is getting a bit busier/slower
		
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Perhaps, but that's because it's not a problem if it's a 'quiet' road. It becomes a problem 'when it transitioning....' and from then on - when folk don't obey the instructions/think others are 'not playing fair', when it's actually 'them' that are 'the problem'!


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

Getting drivers to act with any sense has no chance: most people can't negotiate a supermarket with a 4-wheeled trolley at 3mph.


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## Kennysarmy (Dec 17, 2021)

Why is everyone always in such a rush....


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## Slab (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps, but that's because it's not a problem if it's a 'quiet' road. It becomes a problem 'when it transitioning....' and from then on - when folk don't obey the instructions/think others are 'not playing fair', when it's actually 'them' that are 'the problem'!
		
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No doubt
That happens because drivers are left to make their own judgement about what is 'too slow/too busy' i.e when is the conditions right to move into using all lanes

(lets face it the already merged traffic will never unmerge itself so we're actually reliant on the empty lane 'pioneers' to aid the transition to use all lanes... they just don't have to be so smug about it )


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slab said:



			No doubt
That happens because drivers are left to make their own judgement about what is 'too slow/too busy' i.e when is the conditions right to move into using all lanes

(lets face it the already merged traffic will never unmerge itself so we're actually reliant on the empty lane 'pioneers' to aid the transition to use all lanes... they just don't have to be so smug about it )
		
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All lanes shoud always be 'in use'!

What makes you think they are 'so smug about it'?


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## Slab (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



*All lanes shoud always be 'in use'!*

What makes you think they are 'so smug about it'?
		
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Re bold, are you still talking about merging? That isn't right. I've already said that a handful of free flowing cars don't have to use all lanes to merge in turn

Re smug. its a joke... although....  If they were really honest a fair few ‘empty lane users’ would have to admit that the very last thing they want to see when they arrive on scene … is all lanes in full use


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slab said:



			Re bold, are you still talking about merging? That isn't right. I've already said that a handful of free flowing cars don't have to use all lanes to merge in turn
		
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So what/doesn't matter - as it's 'free flowing', so it's not important and I don't care 1 way or the other.


Slab said:



			Re smug. its a joke... although....  If they were really honest a fair few ‘empty lane users’ would have to admit that the very last thing they want to see when they arrive on scene … is all lanes in full use 

Click to expand...

And you know that how?
If I encountered that, it would only be disappointing because the wait was likely to be longer (than normal).


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## DaveR (Dec 17, 2021)

Don Barzini said:



			Correct way is to use all available lanes when approaching a merge point. Simple as that.

If there’s 100 vehicles queuing in the left lane and zero in the right lane, 50 of them are driving incorrectly. 50 of them should be in the right hand lane. And if they were, the queue wouldn’t be as long, everyone would get through quicker and hey presto, number 101 wouldn’t be able to “push in”.

I’ve long thought there should be official “public information” adverts on TV about this kind of stuff.
People have it so ingrained in their head that they absolutely MUST join a queue if they see one that they will never change unless the info comes from an “official” source.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you are wrong. The slowing down is caused by cars merging in, the traffic flows quicker when there is only 1 lane. Join the back of the open lane and the traffic continues to flow.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Unfortnately you are wrong....
		
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Er, No he's not. And his 'Correct way...' is exactly what 'Merge in Turn' means!


DaveR said:



			.... The slowing down is caused by cars merging in....
		
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Perhaps/Agreed. But that's irrelevant. 'Merge in Turn' means exactly that - not 'Leave <whichever> Lane Empty'! That merely causes a longer tailback! And folks will simply use the empty lane anyway!


DaveR said:



			...the traffic flows quicker when there is only 1 lane...
		
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Perhaps - for the open lane, but the overall throughput is likely equal, or at least more controlled, when 'Merge in Turn' is obeyed! My experience of the slowest instances of MiT and use of single lane is when some sod, often a lorry, blocks the 'free' lane while also occupying the 'tailback' one!


DaveR said:



			...Join the back of the open lane...
		
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You mean 'Disobey the specific instruction'?


DaveR said:



			... and the traffic continues to flow.
		
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As it should/does when 'Merge in Turn' is performed as directed!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2021)

What's more of a problem is where two lanes approach traffic lights but only one lane exits.  It's a pinch point and very dangerous.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What's more of a problem is where two lanes approach traffic lights but only one lane exits.  It's a pinch point and very dangerous.
		
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There's worse! Try navigating Place de la Concorde. Room for 6 cars across...no/pick your own lanes and mopeds zipping everywhere!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Er, No he's not. And his 'Correct way...' is exactly what 'Merge in Turn' means!
Perhaps/Agreed. But that's irrelevant. 'Merge in Turn' means exactly that - not 'Leave <whichever> Lane Empty'! That merely causes a longer tailback! And folks will simply use the empty lane anyway!
Perhaps - for the open lane, but the overall throughput is likely equal, or at least more controlled, when 'Merge in Turn' is obeyed! My experience of the slowest instances of MiT and use of single lane is when some sod, often a lorry, blocks the 'free' lane while also occupying the 'tailback' one!
You mean 'Disobey the specific instruction'?
As it should/does when 'Merge in Turn' is performed as directed!
		
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Er,,...Are you sure you covered all points here? I think also (perhaps/ possibly) a bit more (expression! *+/_) may be needed!


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Er,,...*Are you sure you covered all points here?* I think _maybe/perhaps/ possibly_ a bit more (expression! *+/_) may be needed!
		
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FTFY 
Btw...WRT the bold bit...Yes! 
So many different things were wrong in DaveRs post that they had to be separated to make any sense. Try reading/trying to understand the post you quoted as you quoted it and you will see why!


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## DaveR (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			So many different things were wrong in DaveRs post
		
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Says the self proclaimed font of all knowledge. You are seriously annoying


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxy
Put a sock in it for a bit please 👍


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## Foxholer (Dec 19, 2021)

Here's what a couple of proper 'authorities' say about the issue...
https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/legal/merge-in-turn 

and more practical demos from a driving instructor...


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## Don Barzini (Dec 20, 2021)

Those two videos from the driving instructor in the last post are spot on. 

As I said in a previous post, they should make public information adverts about this kind of stuff.


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## DaveR (Dec 20, 2021)

Don Barzini said:



			Those two videos from the driving instructor in the last post are spot on. 

As I said in a previous post, they should make public information adverts about this kind of stuff.
		
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Just watched the 2nd video. The queue isn't long, joining the back of it wouldn't have created an obstruction. So why the need to drive to the front and push in ahead of people patiently queuing?

I get the merge in turn principal when it's heavy traffic etc but there is no benefit when the traffic is light. It simply becomes queue jumping.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Just watched the 2nd video. The queue isn't long, joining the back of it wouldn't have created an obstruction. So why the need to drive to the front and push in ahead of people patiently queuing?

I get the merge in turn principal when it's heavy traffic etc but there is no benefit when the traffic is light. It simply becomes queue jumping.
		
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Try it at the supermarket. There's a long queue so you walk down the outside (plenty of room in the isle) and merge in turn 😳


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## backwoodsman (Dec 20, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Just watched the 2nd video. The queue isn't long, joining the back of it wouldn't have created an obstruction. So why the need to drive to the front and push in ahead of people patiently queuing?

I get the merge in turn principal when it's heavy traffic etc but there is no benefit when the traffic is light. It simply becomes queue jumping.
		
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Just because some drivers made the mistake of unnecessarily joining the back of an unnecessary queue, doesn't mean everyone else should make the same  mistake?


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## Don Barzini (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Try it at the supermarket. There's a long queue so you walk down the outside (plenty of room in the isle) and merge in turn 😳
		
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The rules of the Highway Code apply to highways only. Not to supermarkets. 

Hope this helps.


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## DaveR (Dec 20, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Just because some drivers made the mistake of unnecessarily joining the back of an unnecessary queue, doesn't mean everyone else should make the same  mistake?
		
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Showing consideration for others isn't making a mistake.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2021)

Don Barzini said:



			The rules of the Highway Code apply to highways only. Not to supermarkets.

Hope this helps. 

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The Supermarket analogy was intended to point out that waiting in line is the fairest way of queueing unless certain road circumstances prevail. It's not really appropriate where there is a small single queue and someone decides, sod waiting in line, I'll cut to the front instead.

What does the Highway code actually advise:

Rule 134 of the Highway Code says: "In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed."


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 20, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Showing consideration for others isn't making a mistake.
		
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Showing consideration for others stupidity is. When you do that you then eventually have one unnecessary nonsensical line of idiots. 
Use both lanes, don’t immediately go to the lane that will be open 1000 yards before it closes, loose this false notion of a queue, loose the ego. Merge in turn.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Showing consideration for others stupidity is. When you do that you then eventually have one unnecessary nonsensical line of idiots.
Use both lanes, don’t immediately go to the lane that will be open 1000 yards before it closes, loose this false notion of a queue, loose the ego. Merge in turn.
		
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Please explain how merging at the pinch point speeds up the flow of traffic.


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## Golfmmad (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how merging at the pinch point speeds up the flow of traffic.
		
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It doesnt necessarily speed up the flow of traffic, but creates less of a queue behind by using both lanes and safely and considerately "Merging in turn".


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## DaveR (Dec 20, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			It doesnt necessarily speed up the flow of traffic, but creates less of a queue behind by using both lanes and safely and considerately "Merging in turn".
		
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If you miles of road what difference does the length of the queue make?


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## Golfmmad (Dec 20, 2021)

DaveR said:



			If you miles of road what difference does the length of the queue make?
		
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None, but theres not always miles of road. It can have a knock on effect - as in backing up to a roundabout or traffic lights.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2021)

How the heck is this still going on 😲


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the heck is this still going on 😲
		
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Because it's there


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## Golfmmad (Dec 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the heck is this still going on 😲
		
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Why not,rather like your football posts. .

"Post in turn".


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## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how merging at the pinch point speeds up the flow of traffic.
		
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Please explain how 'merge in turn' situations have anything to do with speeding up the flow of traffic.

And, fwiw, here's a quote some might recognise...
And my radio says tonight it's gonna freeze
People driving home from the factories
There's six lanes of traffic
Three lanes moving slow


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## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Because it's there
		
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That attitude can be fatal!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That attitude can be fatal!
		
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Behave.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how merging at the pinch point speeds up the flow of traffic.
		
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It doesn’t, that’s not what it’s for. 
It’s to not create tail backs and limit disruption to junctions, roundabouts and slip roads behind.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the heck is this still going on 😲
		
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The internet loves this motoring argument alongside “I don’t have to keep left as I’m doing 70 and nobody should be overtaking me”.


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## DaveR (Dec 21, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			None, but theres not always miles of road. It can have a knock on effect - as in backing up to a roundabout or traffic lights.
		
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Well if there isn't miles of road it's a different scenario but the place where I often see this happening is at the end of an 8 mile stretch of dual carriageway.


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## Golfmmad (Dec 21, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Well if there isn't miles of road it's a different scenario but the place where I often see this happening is at the end of an 8 mile stretch of dual carriageway.
		
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So in that situation some people will queue in the inside lane and others will approach in outside lane - no one has priority and both lanes should "Merge in turn" in a courteous manner.


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## DaveR (Dec 21, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			So in that situation some people will queue in the inside lane and others will approach in outside lane - no one has priority and both lanes should "Merge in turn" in a courteous manner.
		
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In all the years I have driven that road one thing is abundantly clear. The traffic only stops when people push down to the front. When people join the back of the queue the traffic always continues to move.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

DaveR said:



			In all the years I have driven that road one thing is abundantly clear. The traffic only stops when people push down to the front. When people join the back of the queue the traffic always continues to move.
		
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Does the traffic stop because the people using the left lane don’t leave a sufficient gap for those using the right lane to join easily? Meaning they have to slow down suddenly or stop.


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## Don Barzini (Dec 21, 2021)

DaveR said:



			In all the years I have driven that road one thing is abundantly clear. The traffic only stops when people push down to the front. When people join the back of the queue the traffic always continues to move.
		
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Dave it's clear you hate the concept of people "pushing in". I'm assuming you'd like them to not be able to do that......?

If I've assumed correctly, you should be a supporter of everyone doing merge in turn. If half the queue are in the inside lane and half are in the outside lane, the guy who would otherwise "push in" wouldn't be able to do so. He'd have no option but to join the back of one of the lanes. Can you not accept that?

In your preferred scenario of "everybody joins the back of the queue", all that happens is more and more road space gets unused. And in your scenario, if traffic is heavy enough, all that happens is that a merge point happens further and further away from the front. Longer and longer queue, more and more road space being unused. Far better to have the merge point at the end of all available space than a mile or so back, surely?!


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## Kennysarmy (Dec 21, 2021)

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/zip-merging/

Quote from RAC headline is "Why drivers who merge at the last minute are *right*: the benefit of zip-merging"


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## DaveR (Dec 21, 2021)

Don Barzini said:



			Dave it's clear you hate the concept of people "pushing in". I'm assuming you'd like them to not be able to do that......?

If I've assumed correctly, you should be a supporter of everyone doing merge in turn. If half the queue are in the inside lane and half are in the outside lane, the guy who would otherwise "push in" wouldn't be able to do so. He'd have no option but to join the back of one of the lanes. Can you not accept that?

In your preferred scenario of "everybody joins the back of the queue", all that happens is more and more road space gets unused. And in your scenario, if traffic is heavy enough, all that happens is that a merge point happens further and further away from the front. Longer and longer queue, more and more road space being unused. Far better to have the merge point at the end of all available space than a mile or so back, surely?!
		
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There is a time and place for merge in turn. When the traffic is forming 1 lane and continues to flow then merge is not the answer when merging causes the flow to stop.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

Late merge in turn is good when there are things like roadworks or road accidents blocking a lane. It's not so good when there is a dual carriageway narrowing into a single lane and the queue on the inside isn't long, people driving down the outside to the pinch point are inconsiderate in this case.

There has been mention here that keeping to a single lane uses more road space, that's incorrect. 

In the case of roadworks it's best where traffic cones are set in a long taper to encourage earlier merging.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

DaveR said:



			There is a time and place for merge in turn. When the traffic is forming 1 lane and continues to flow then merge is not the answer when merging causes the flow to stop.
		
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I'm making (an) assumption/s about what you mean as it's not abundantly clear, but ... 

Merging should never 'cause the flow to stop'. It will be something further ahead - in the merged stream - that will be doing that; possibly the presence of workers, drivers 'rubber-knecking' or the safety considerations wrt the incident that caused the lane to close. It will, however, cause flow of the 'open' lane to reduce, ideally approx halved, as combined traffic from 2 lanes moves normally again and gaps between cars normalise.

By merging too early, all that is achieved is a, possibly huge, gap of wasted unused road that pushes the 'beginning of the queue' further back than it should be and that could well have other consequences!

As 'proof' of the above, consider the situation where the driver of a queueing vehicle, some way back from the 'pinch point' decides to 'help' fellow drivers of his/her (I'd bet it's a male, so will use 'he') lane and block the lane to his right. All that achieves is to move the pinch-point back to his position. He, and cars in front of him will move faster, but overall throughput will not change! In all likelihood, he, and the cars in front, could have achieved the same thing if they had alternately moved into the empty lane completely and merged at the 'proper' place. 

So, feel free to join the back of the queue in the 'continuing' lane. But don't object to those who go as far down the 'non-continuing' one before merging in turn.They are, perhaps unwittingly, helping the overall situation, while you and others of same inclination, could well be exacerbating an already awkward situation. And when you get to the pinch point, let (only?) 1 vehicle in.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Late merge in turn is good when there are things like roadworks or road accidents blocking a lane. It's not so good when there is a dual carriageway narrowing into a single lane and the queue on the inside isn't long, people driving down the outside to the pinch point are inconsiderate in this case.
		
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Can't say I've ever seen that - at least not a significant difference - except where the blockage is in the inside lane (like in the vid I posted). That simply means it's the inside lane that has to merge and the outside one that should 'allow' it.



SocketRocket said:



			...
There has been mention here that keeping to a single lane uses more road space, that's incorrect.
		
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'Space' no; 'Length/Distance' certainly!


SocketRocket said:



			In the case of roadworks it's best where traffic cones are set in a long taper to encourage earlier merging.
		
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All that really does is move the pinch-point further back.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 22, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/zip-merging/

Quote from RAC headline is "Why drivers who merge at the last minute are *right*: the benefit of zip-merging"
		
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Worth a read of the "Comments" section underneath the main article. They degenerated into exactly the same bun-fight as this thread has.


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## Don Barzini (Dec 22, 2021)

DaveR said:



			There is a time and place for merge in turn. When the traffic is forming 1 lane and continues to flow then merge is not the answer when merging causes the flow to stop.
		
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Merging doesn’t cause the flow to stop.

People driving up the arse of the vehicle in front of them and thus not allowing others to merge causes the flow to stop. There’s a big difference.

If merge in turn was practised correctly by all, it would work as it is intended. But it doesn’t - because there are a high number of people on the road with the opinion of “I was here first, he should join the back of the queue, I’m not letting anyone in”.


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