# Attacks in London



## Kellfire (Mar 22, 2017)

Early days with fragmented news coming in but seems like Parliament has been locked down and Theresa May evacuated. 

A police office has been stabbed and the assailant shot.

News constantly coming in...


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2017)

Where is Gerrard Butler when you need him?


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## Snelly (Mar 22, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Where is Gerrard Butler when you need him?
		
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He is somewhere.  Shouting.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2017)

Sky news are shamelessly speculating and showing "distressing" images of people hurt

classless to a tee


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2017)

Only just saw this through another social media platform and just watched a helicopter video over Westminster Bridge where it looks like quite a few still bodies were on the road and pavement with sheets over them, also some covered bodies in the grounds of Westminster, whether they are fatalities or badly injured is unsure as the video I just watched it all looked very sudden and panicky as people were running from 1 body to another to no doubt check their condition before emergency services were on hand.

Reports of then a car ploughing into the gates of the houses of parliament by all accounts which drove through a group of French school children, he then ran from the car and stabbed a police officer apparently but incidents on the bridge and in the houses of parliament where gunshots were then fired are still unclear and not sure if that's just the diplomat security guard firing or the terrorist/s. 

Doesn't look good with the amount of ambulances and trolleys being used.


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## Khamelion (Mar 22, 2017)

Rumour is, car drove down the pavement on Westminster Bridge, mowing down several pedestrians, the car then crashed into railings at Westminster, the driving then getting out, stabbing a policeman before being shot.

One woman has died, several are in a very bad way, and the news is saying a group of French school children were in the path of the car as well.


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2017)

I know we shouldn't change our way of life because of the actions of terrorists otherwise they win, with their acts of terror, but when a simple car and a knife can be used in such a devastating way to cause such a heinous murdering act, I'm struggling to see what we can do to prevent these attacks in the future?


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## Jensen (Mar 22, 2017)

Vehicles seem to be the latest weapon of destruction. Mass damage, easily obtained, can't be monitored.
Latest on Sky sadly 2 people now dead. Images of attacker restrained on the ground, with bare legs. Appears Assian per Sky


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## Coffey (Mar 22, 2017)

Fish said:



			I know we shouldn't change our way of life because of the actions of terrorists otherwise they win, with their acts of terror, but when a simple car and a knife can be used in such a devastating way to cause such a heinous murdering act, I'm struggling to see what we can do to prevent these attacks in the future?
		
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It really is a scary thought.

I think the only way to do it is through monitoring before hand, looking at who they are contacting, where they have been. Most of these people don't act alone and are part of a group.

I guess if they do act alone or are on no ones radar then there is absolutely nothing that can be done.

You can put as many police on the street as you want, but unfortunately until the incident occurs the police are completely unaware. It is just good that there are on hand to take control immediately but as seen today, the damage is already done.


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## Dasit (Mar 22, 2017)

Very sad news, rest in peace to the confirmed people who have died.


There definitely does seem to be a surge in terrorist attacks in European cities in the previous couple of years.

Hopefully we can eventually figure out what it is correlated with.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2017)

Sounds horrific; apparently a group of French schoolchildren were mown down, a woman pedestrian killed and news filtering in that one of the police officers involved has now died.  The Foreign Secretary, who lost his brother in the Bali bombing, was performing CPR on the police officer.

Sympathies to those injured & condolences to those who have lost loved ones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2017)

Condolences and thoughts are with family of the Police Officer and the 2 Civilians killed in London today. Hoping all those injured pull through.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2017)

Very sad news , was in shock hearing about it on the radio 

Thoughts with the families


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## moogie (Mar 22, 2017)

Shocking scenes
Terrible day for the country and all those poor innocent people

Thoughts go out to them all


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## spongebob59 (Mar 22, 2017)

https://twitter.com/MichaelVaughan/status/844599758614351873

Spot on.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2017)

Just trying to catch up on this. Heard somewhere but not seen it so far that someone ended up in the Thames. Did well to survive that if its correct. Very sad day, but I think we all knew it was a matter of when not it. Seems the emergency services were right on it from the moment it happened and responded efficiently and professionally. Thoughts go out the injured, and the families of the deas


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## jusme (Mar 22, 2017)

I just bow in admiration for the courage of our front line......no words will ever convey the extent of their bravery to protect us, the public. There is little more I can say as I would get banned if I expressed myself freely. Oh how I wish I could convey on them the pain they cause to innocent people going about their daily lives. My heart goes out to the victims families and loved ones. Too many sad days recently.


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## Khamelion (Mar 22, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just trying to catch up on this. Heard somewhere but not seen it so far that someone ended up in the Thames. Did well to survive that if its correct. Very sad day, but I think we all knew it was a matter of when not it. Seems the emergency services were right on it from the moment it happened and responded efficiently and professionally. Thoughts go out the injured, and the families of the dead
		
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An eyewitness said he saw someone jump over the railing into the Thames to avoid being hit, they were rescued, hopefully they will be alright.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			An eyewitness said he saw someone jump over the railing into the Thames to avoid being hit, they were rescued, hopefully they will be alright.
		
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Very sad and harrowing to be faced with that option of jumping from a height into the river, famous for the rip tides and currents. Glad they were rescued and as you say hopefully they are or will be ok


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## Rooter (Mar 22, 2017)

It's just sickening that this is the world we live in today and the one our kids have to grow into. As many know I travel a lot for work, Paris, Brussels, nice, Berlin and of course London. Great for mrs R's blood pressure, but we must carry on, being scared is what 'they' want. I for one will not stop doing my job and travelling for that job. I am in Berlin all next week, and I will spare a few minutes peace for the innocent that lost their lives there.

This is life for the next generation, attacks on the innocent, but we must remain strong and continue.

Bravo to our emergency services, if I were military, I would salute you.


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## PieMan (Mar 22, 2017)

Looks like most of the interviews were taking place outside my office. Fortunately was working from home today otherwise would've been caught up in it all. Will be extra vigilant tomorrow when I travel in to work.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2017)

Horrendous! Sickening...

Personally, we had 2 hours of hell trying to get hold of number 1 daughter, who was in Westminster today. 

Never thought I'd ever be ringing an emergency number... hands were shaking.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Fish said:



			I know we shouldn't change our way of life because of the actions of terrorists otherwise they win, with their acts of terror, but when a simple car and a knife can be used in such a devastating way to cause such a heinous murdering act, I'm struggling to see what we can do to prevent these attacks in the future?
		
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Arm all Police.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Horrendous! Sickening...

Personally, we had 2 hours of hell trying to get hold of number 1 daughter, who was in Westminster today. 

Never thought I'd ever be ringing an emergency number... hands were shaking.
		
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Good to hear she's ok mate.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Arm all Police.
		
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One isolated incident and this line gets trotted out.

No way can an organisation as corrupt as the police force  have all officers carrying guns.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Arm all Police.
		
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Daughter starts her arms training in July. it cannot come soon enough.
Totally agree with you thoughts socket, but as part of the selection process and elimination. Some of the bobbies on the course. When the reality kicked in, they just could not shoot people/ guns.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			One isolated incident and this line gets trotted out.

No way can an organisation as corrupt as the police force  have all officers carrying guns.
		
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Trouble is Paul, it's not one isolated incident. It is another of many.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Arm all Police.
		
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Is not the answer and in all likelihood would have made no difference in this instance.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 22, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Trouble is Paul, it's not one isolated incident. It is another of many.
		
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I'm Stuart Tashy, much better looking than Paul, but I still disagree. These incidents are very few and far between, when was the last time a copper was killed whilst on duty?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm Stuart Tashy, much better looking than Paul, but I still disagree. These incidents are very few and far between, when was the last time a copper was killed whilst on duty?
		
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Oops heyup Stuart, me specs must of slipped. Yup will agree with you re the Bobby, but they are here to protect us and uphold the law. Unfortunately if guns help to reach that goal, then so be it. It was only by the grace of God, this murderer was armed with a knife and car and not a gun.
During my swarree in Monaco last week, we had a nice breakfast on Nice promenade. One of party who is an ex teacher got up and was talking to the owner ( who was English) he was with him for ten mins. When he got back we asked him what he was boring the owner about. he told us he asked the owner where the Nice murders were carried out last year with the Lorry. He said it started there and pointed 100 yd up the rd and pointed there where it finished. He then pointed to differant spots where people died. The next few minutes were a bit somber.
10 mins later whilst walking to the flower market, we passed four of the biggest soldiers that were seriously tooled up. Quite frankly they looked like they would take no ****. I for one was more than happy that they were there for my protection. 
I am not saying that we should have soldiers on the streets but if guns are part of the answer, then unfortunately so be it.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 22, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Oops heyup Stuart, me specs must of slipped. Yup will agree with you re the Bobby, but they are here to protect us and uphold the law. Unfortunately if guns help to reach that goal, then so be it. It was only by the grace of God, this murderer was armed with a knife and car and not a gun.
During my swarree in Monaco last week, we had a nice breakfast on Nice promenade. One of party who is an ex teacher got up and was talking to the owner ( who was English) he was with him for ten mins. When he got back we asked him what he was boring the owner about. he told us he asked the owner where the Nice murders were carried out last year with the Lorry. He said it started there and pointed 100 yd up the rd and pointed there where it finished. He then pointed to differant spots where people died. The next few minutes were a bit somber.
10 mins later whilst walking to the flower market, we passed four of the biggest soldiers that were seriously tooled up. Quite frankly they looked like they would take no ****. I for one was more than happy that they were there for my protection. 
I am not saying that we should have soldiers on the streets but if guns are part of the answer, then unfortunately so be it.
		
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If I was 100% certain that there would be no cover ups etc from forces around the country over misuse of firearms then I'd agree. Unfortunately I can't be certain and I wouldn't like all officers to be armed.


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## Midnight (Mar 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Horrendous! Sickening...

Personally, we had 2 hours of hell trying to get hold of number 1 daughter, who was in Westminster today. 

Never thought I'd ever be ringing an emergency number... hands were shaking.
		
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Glad she is ok mate.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is not the answer and in all likelihood would have made no difference in this instance.
		
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The dead Policeman was not armed, if he was then he may still be alive.   That would have been good enough reason.


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## Midnight (Mar 22, 2017)

Not a lot i can say about today, my thoughts are with the families who have lost someone today and the innocent people who had to witness this happen.


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## Midnight (Mar 22, 2017)

I don't know what the answer is, but arming all Police Officers in my opinion is not the correct thing to do.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			One isolated incident and this line gets trotted out.

No way can an organisation as corrupt as the police force  have all officers carrying guns.
		
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But it's not an isolated incident any more, it will only get worse. How many Police forces in Europe are unarmed?  Are they all wrong and are we the only Country with a corrupt Police Force.

Maybe you can explain your comment and why you thing the British Police are so corrupt.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Midnight said:



			I don't know what the answer is, but arming all Police Officers in my opinion is not the correct thing to do.
		
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What is then?   One Policeman may still be alive today if he had been armed, is that not enough!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The dead Policeman was not armed, if he was then he may still be alive.   That would have been good enough reason.
		
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The fact that his murderer got close enough to inflict fatal stab wounds tends to suggest to me that Pc Keith Palmer would not have had time to draw the firearm & use it.  That then leaves the murderer with knives and a gun.  Your logic is unfortunately a little too simplistic.  

RIP Pc Keith Palmer and all those fatally injured.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's not an isolated incident any more, it will only get worse. How many Police forces in Europe are unarmed?  Are they all wrong and are we the only Country with a corrupt Police Force.

Maybe you can explain your comment and why you thing the British Police are so corrupt.
		
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Have a read of the  Mark Dugan case and read the experts opinions then come back to me. Thats just one case.

Look at the copper who assaulted the innocent Ian Tomlinson, who was later found to be unlawfully killed, then the officer was found not guilty of manslaughter? 

Jean Charles de menezes?

And many more, It's all there to see, facts. 

Whilst there are many good professional police officers up and down the country, there's many who will misuse there authority and for that reason alone they all shouldnt be armed.


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## Midnight (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What is then?   One Policeman may still be alive today if he had been armed, is that not enough!
		
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I did say that i did not know what the answer was. Do you think that all officers want to be armed ? Or are capable of shooting someone ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			Have a read of the  Mark Dugan case and read the experts opinions then come back to me. Thats just one case.

Look at the copper who assaulted the innocent Ian Tomlinson, who was later found to be unlawfully killed, then the officer was found not guilty of manslaughter? 

Jean Charles de menezes?

And many more, It's all there to see, facts. 

Whilst there are many good professional police officers up and down the country, there's many who will misuse there authority and for that reason alone they all shouldnt be armed.
		
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So why do Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Spain et al arm their Police.  Are they somehow different people opr more civilised


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Midnight said:



			I did say that i did not know what the answer was. Do you think that all officers want to be armed ? Or are capable of shooting someone ?
		
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I repeat to you what I have said to others.  Look at the Police in other European Countries who are armed.  Are our police somehow less capable than them of being armed. If you had a gun and someone was about to stab you would you defend yourself?  I know what I would do.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2017)

Midnight said:



			I did say that i did not know what the answer was. Do you think that all officers want to be armed ? Or are capable of shooting someone ?
		
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I don't think all bobbies want to be armed, and some are not capable of shooting someone.


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## Midnight (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I repeat to you what I have said to others.  Look at the Police in other European Countries who are armed.  Are our police somehow less capable than them of being armed. If you had a gun ans someone was about to stab you would you defend yourself?  I know what I would do.
		
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I also know what i believe i would do. But as i said not every officer would and not every officer wants to be armed.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			I don't think all bobbies want to be armed, and some are not capable of shooting someone
		
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Tash.  If Bobbies are armed then that's part of the job, as i have been saying most European countries arm their police and dont have problems with recruiting.   If the poor Policeman who died today had been armed then their would probably have been a different outcome.  We are not living in the days of John Peel anymore and need to face up to the reality of whats happening out there.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

Midnight said:



			I also know what i believe i would do. But as i said not every officer would and not every officer wants to be armed.
		
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If it's part of the job you do it or dont do the job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The dead Policeman was not armed, if he was then he may still be alive.   That would have been good enough reason.
		
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Very disrespectful and poor timing by you in my opinion, you have no way of knowing if he may still be alive if he'd of been armed, a family has lost a dad and a husband tonight, show a bit more respect for their loss.

RIP PC Keith Palmer.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Very disrespectful and poor timing by you in my opinion, you have no way of knowing if he may still be alive if he'd of been armed, a family has lost a dad and a husband tonight, show a bit more respect for their loss.

RIP PC Keith Palmer.
		
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Thats a pretty poor post.  I am suggesting that if we changed our policy then Policemen would not be left in such vulnerable situations.   To suggest that this is disrespectful to him is not necessary and wrong.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2017)

Was this really a well  planned terrorist attack, or was it just some nutcase cracking up on his own


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

williamalex1 said:



			Was this really a well  planned terrorist attack, or was it just some nutcase cracking up on his own

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Does it matter?  It's the intent and effect that matters.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Does it matter?  It's the intent and effect that matters.
		
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I only asked a question,  what's your problem


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

williamalex1 said:



			I only asked a question,  what's your problem 

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I don't have one. I was simply answering your question as best I could.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2017)

I don't think arming ALL police officers is the answer, a lot of them serving now wouldn't want to or even couldn't fire a weapon as they haven't been trained or selected on that criteria.  

There are quite a lot of armed officers already in and around London and other major cities, what I'm a little surprised is that a post on a high profile area at the entrance to Westminster wasn't an armed officer anyway, although the diplomatic officers do carry and aren't far away, but I thought most officers wore stab vests as a matter of course?

With that said, whether officers are armed or not nothing could have prevented the car ploughing people down on the bridge or anywhere in a public area.

They now know this terrorist/murderers identity and it's being reported he was personally driven by Islamist ideology.  

Our emergency services were quite superb and continue to excel and put others ahead of their own well being when reacting to these kind of attacks running head-on into danger zones to treat and assist the injured, it's just a shame they have to prove themselves because of the murderous acts of these warped minded and sick individuals.


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## chrisd (Mar 23, 2017)

If all police officers were armed almost all criminals would arm themselves too, there would be  many more Deaths.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So why do *Germany*, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, *France*, Spain et al arm their Police.  Are they somehow different people opr more civilised
		
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Armed officers in those two countries didn't prevent the horror attacks at the Xmas market in Germany or the promenade attack in Nice  did they?  

I don't know, I've never lived in Any of those countries and noticed any corruption within their  police force's so I can't possibly comment.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

chrisd said:



			If all police officers were armed almost all criminals would arm themselves too, there would be  many more Deaths.
		
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Is that the case in most European countries?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a pretty poor post.  I am suggesting that if we changed our policy then Policemen would not be left in such vulnerable situations.   To suggest that this is disrespectful to him is not necessary and wrong.
		
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It's all about timing, 2 serving Police Officers on here answered your point and still you questioned them, how about the impact on them losing a colleague and possibly having to go to work today unarmed. 
I have no issue with your opinion or a discussion about whether we do or do not arm all Police, but your point of view, imo, opinion was confrontational last night and not needed, emotions are running high and we should at times stand back and let the situation develop and let the emergency services do their job.


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## Smiffy (Mar 23, 2017)

Don't know what the answer is but I certainly know that whenever I have been abroad, or am at the airport and there a a few police around carrying Glocks, I tend to feel a bit safer.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Don't know what the answer is but I certainly know that whenever I have been abroad, or am at the airport and there a a few police around carrying Glocks, I tend to feel a bit safer.
		
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We already have armed officers in and around airports, also when you go out on the town at night in London you see as many officers with side arms as you do normal officers, you get to know the different markings on the their vehicles also to those that carry, and there's quite a few already. 

What you don't do is a knee jerk reaction, it's almost like baying for blood, as I said earlier, a car mounting the pavement cannot be prevented by the carrying of weapons and that's where the majority of life was lost yesterday, just like a lorry ploughing into a market couldn't have been prevented. 

Isolated one-man crusades by nutters like this are hard to prevent, they wouldn't stop doing what they thought they could get away with to cause mass panic and disruption/terror just because officers were armed, it hasn't stopped them in any of the other European countries so it wouldn't stop them over here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2017)

Fish said:



			We already have armed officers in and around airports, also when you go out on the town at night in London you see as many officers with side arms as you do normal officers, you get to know the different markings on the their vehicles also to those that carry, and there's quite a few already. 

What you don't do is a knee jerk reaction, it's almost like baying for blood, as I said earlier, a car mounting the pavement cannot be prevented by the carrying of weapons and that's where the majority of life was lost yesterday, just like a lorry ploughing into a market couldn't have been prevented. 

Isolated one-man crusades by nutters like this are hard to prevent, they wouldn't stop doing what they thought they could get away with to cause mass panic and disruption/terror just because officers were armed, it hasn't stopped them in any of the other European countries so it wouldn't stop them over here.
		
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:thup: well put Robin.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2017)

Armed raids going on in Birmingham last night and this morning and arrests already made in connection with yesterday's events!


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## Stuart_C (Mar 23, 2017)

Fish said:



			Armed raids going on in Birmingham last night and this morning and arrests already made in connection with yesterday's events!
		
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Report I've just heard on wireless is police haven't confirmed either way if it's linked.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			Report I've just heard on wireless is police haven't confirmed either way if it's linked.
		
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Our local news is reporting it as such, but even if it isn't and is a mechanism to round up and show some reaction against known sympathisers it's welcome.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2017)

Fish said:



			Our local news is reporting it as such, but even if it isn't and is a mechanism to round up and show some reaction against known sympathisers it's welcome.
		
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Sky News is reporting that Midlands Police are directing all questions to the Met. Probably won't be the last raid we see over the next few days.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2017)

The report I heard this morning was they raided the flat because that's where he lived and rented a car. They also said that he appeared to have acted alone and was fascinated by international terrorism. 

Hopefully it's just the act of one messed up person as opposed to part of an organised cell. 

See the EDL leader Robinson went straight there to shout about the dangers of Islam.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Daughter starts her arms training in July. it cannot come soon enough.
Totally agree with you thoughts socket, but as part of the selection process and elimination. Some of the bobbies on the course. When the reality kicked in, they just could not shoot people/ guns.
		
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This is what I posted yesterday. Just to emphasise, some of these bobbies that joined up never dreamed they would be asked to carry firearms. Some that went through the selection process, as soon as they picked up a gun knew it was not for them. They just could not pull the trigger. The bobbies role has changed beyond recognition in the ten years my daughter has been on the beat. Carrying a firearm was not in the job role as being the norm ten years ago.
All traffic cops in south Yorks are being asked to carry firearms. Some don't want to. not all bobbies want to be armed. 
I am sure there are serve ral ex servicemen on here that know what the differance is in saying you would pull a trigger and actually doing it when pointing your firearm at a person.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			No way can an organisation as corrupt as the police force  have all officers carrying guns.
		
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What an awful statement suggesting that the Police Force is corrupt.  With an organisation as large as the police there is always going to be a few bad apples but please don't point a finger at the whole organisation.

IMO I wouldn't like to see all of our police armed.  Some police units now only have Clock Pistols and the thought of someone having to use a pistol (a weapon of last resort) is worrying - forget your cowboy films.

As Fish posted, this is an incident that there is little protection against. Lets hope the authorities stay away from knee jerk reactions.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			What an awful statement suggesting that the Police Force is corrupt.  With an organisation as large as the police there is always going to be a few bad apples but please don't point a finger at the whole organisation.

IMO I wouldn't like to see all of our police armed.  Some police units now only have Clock Pistols and the thought of someone having to use a pistol (a weapon of last resort) is worrying - forget your cowboy films.

As Fish posted, this is an incident that there is little protection against. Lets hope the authorities stay away from knee jerk reactions.
		
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The problem with this sort of incident is the general public is the target .
Its impossible to pre empt what happened on the bridge.
The more we arm the police the more accidents will happen they are only human and it happens so fast it's a tough call.
I think there have been things in the past that still rankle the public Hillborough, Birmingham Six etc.
The forces involved did themselves no favours with the cover ups.
But that's in the past we need an answer to the lone wolf problem but sadly like in the USA I don't think there is an answer.
Arming all officers wouldn't stop the people on the bridge being killed.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			What an awful statement suggesting that the Police Force is corrupt.  With an organisation as large as the police there is always going to be a few bad apples but please don't point a finger at the whole organisation.
		
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Sadly though, at least one of those 'bad apples' has made it to the top of the tree...


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 23, 2017)

I don't subscribe to the police being corrupt, yes there will always be a very small number who may be just in any walk of life. However rather than arming the police in total, I would rather see a greater number of police in all departments out and visible. Numbers have been cut back so much response times have increased with the resultant greater searching after the event.
 You could argue we were lucky the perpetrator was stupid enough to target one of the most heavily armed and protected  areas of the country, coupling that with the proximity of the poilice and security services hq's. You could also argue that it was done purely to frighten the public and harm innocent bystanders.
Whatever the reasons or outcome I am immensley proud of our emergency and security personel and forces. They do a stirling job, often in the face of some quite hostile and pc driven rubbish.


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## sawtooth (Mar 23, 2017)

Very sad and tragic for those that have suffered at the hands of this scumbag.

I'm on my up to St Thomas's now for an appointment for the missus. I am told that it's business as usual but I expect it may be difficult driving right up to it as access is bound to be restricted.


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## woody69 (Mar 23, 2017)

There is no way that all officers will be armed. Firstly, there's a huge number that would refuse to carry.


Secondly, The standard of training for firearms officers in the UK is extraordinarily high. Most officers would struggle with the course. The failure rate is quite high. As is the whole reclassification and continual training. The police isn't equipped and never will be, to cope with that training resource.


So unless they dropped the standards, reduced the reclassification burden, it wouldn't happen.


Besides, there's sensible options like arming officers with tazer. Sure, it can go wrong, but so can any use of force. Like hitting someone with a telescopic baton.


Anyway, I get the impression that the attack was so quick yesterday it wouldnt have mattered what the poor officer had with him.


The way to deal with the terror threat and armed officers, is to be intelligence led as where you place them throughout the capital. They can't be everywhere, but can be strategically placed to respond.


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			The problem with this sort of incident is the general public is the target .
Its impossible to pre empt what happened on the bridge.
The more we arm the police the more accidents will happen they are only human and it happens so fast it's a tough call.
I think there have been things in the past that still rankle the public Hillborough, Birmingham Six etc.
The forces involved did themselves no favours with the cover ups.
But that's in the past we need an answer to the lone wolf problem but sadly like in the USA I don't think there is an answer.
Arming all officers wouldn't stop the people on the bridge being killed.
		
Click to expand...

But that poor Policeman may just have been able to defend himself had he been armed. It's a good job the armed lads got there as quick as they did other wise it could have been worse. I'm for arming our lads and lasses who put their lives on the line for our protection. I don't care about possible consequences, they need to be able to protect us in whatever way they deem necessary.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2017)

I wonder if the low life would have attacked the policeman if the policeman had been armed


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I wonder if the low life would have attacked the policeman if the policeman had been armed
		
Click to expand...


The police being armed at Orly didn't prevent an attack on them...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2017)

Although fake... A sentiment many would agree with...


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...-attack/ar-BByCKXK?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp


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## sawtooth (Mar 23, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I wonder if the low life would have attacked the policeman if the policeman had been armed
		
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I heard on TV that the policeman was already on the ground after stumbling before he was set upon.

As a bye the bye my journey into St Thomas' was easier than normal which was most unexpected. Roads were pretty quiet.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2017)

Unfortunately the days where UK society acted with respect to those in authority have longer gone. Ambulance crews, fire crews as well as the police are attacked for little or no reason. Police are attacked which attending domestic disturbances! Unarmed police are at a disadvantage when guns are easily available to those with a criminal/gang mentality.

Arming our police would simply recognise the reality of the job they do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Although fake... A sentiment many would agree with...


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...-attack/ar-BByCKXK?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Brilliant isn't it? For those who are not able to open it.


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## IanM (Mar 23, 2017)

Judging by size of recent protests against the outcomes of free elections through the streets of London recently, the march to protest against Islamic State, Terrorism, Jihad etc etc will be something to behold?


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## snell (Mar 23, 2017)

No indication that it's linked to terror at the minute but a similar attempt was made in Belguim today

http://news.sky.com/story/man-tries-to-drive-into-shopping-street-at-high-speed-in-antwerp-10811487


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2017)

I feel that the only thing that can reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening (though it won't stop it) is maintaining and strengthening social cohesion between and within the various ethnic and multi-ethnic communities across the country - with the people of these communities being the 'million eyes and ears on the ground' that the security services need.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2017)

snell said:



			No indication that it's linked to terror at the minute but a similar attempt was made in Belguim today

http://news.sky.com/story/man-tries-to-drive-into-shopping-street-at-high-speed-in-antwerp-10811487

Click to expand...

I think that with knives, a rifle and some unidentified liquid in the boot and with Mohamed at the wheel, it's pretty odds on a copy-cat style attack.


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## ger147 (Mar 23, 2017)

As there is plenty of politician bashing going around, I thought it only appropriate to give an honourable mention to 2 MP's.

First of all, Tobias Ellwood rightly deserves all the praise he has received, true courage in such circumstances.  And secondly, I was moved by James Cleverly speaking about his friend and former colleague, PC Keith Palmer.

MP's are often rightly criticised at times so it's only right when they receive praise when it's due.  Kudos to both  of them.


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## IanM (Mar 23, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I feel that the only thing that can reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening (though it won't stop it) is maintaining and strengthening social cohesion between and within the various ethnic and multi-ethnic communities across the country - with the people of these communities being the 'million eyes and ears on the ground' that the security services need.
		
Click to expand...


Completely correct... and as likely as me winning the Masters. 

A element (of unknown size) in one religious community is committed to the destruction of secular western culture and its replacement with a Caliphate.  They don't care if we kill them as they think they'll be getting their leg over for eternity in paradise.  They take their instruction from old men who think the Earth is flat and women in tight jeans cause earthquakes.  (I just wish that was a joke)

Until we see mass "grassing" of offenders, expulsions from Mosques of offenders by their communities and protests of moderates on the streets , we've no chance.  These don't happen cos of fear or collusion ... or both


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2017)

IanM said:



			Completely correct... and as likely as me winning the Masters.

A element (of unknown size) in one religious community is committed to the destruction of secular western culture and its replacement with a Caliphate.  They don't care if we kill them as they think they'll be getting their leg over for eternity in paradise.  They take their instruction from old men who think the Earth is flat and women in tight jeans cause earthquakes.  (I just wish that was a joke)

Until we see mass "grassing" of offenders, expulsions from Mosques of offenders by their communities and protests of moderates on the streets , we've no chance.  These don't happen cos of fear or collusion ... or both
		
Click to expand...

Sadly you are near the truth. Integration is the last thing on their mind.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

woody69 said:



			There is no way that all officers will be armed. Firstly, there's a huge number that would refuse to carry.


Secondly, The standard of training for firearms officers in the UK is extraordinarily high. Most officers would struggle with the course. The failure rate is quite high. As is the whole reclassification and continual training. The police isn't equipped and never will be, to cope with that training resource.


So unless they dropped the standards, reduced the reclassification burden, it wouldn't happen.


Besides, there's sensible options like arming officers with tazer. Sure, it can go wrong, but so can any use of force. Like hitting someone with a telescopic baton.


Anyway, I get the impression that the attack was so quick yesterday it wouldnt have mattered what the poor officer had with him.


The way to deal with the terror threat and armed officers, is to be intelligence led as where you place them throughout the capital. They can't be everywhere, but can be strategically placed to respond.
		
Click to expand...

I just dont subscribe to this type of argument.  As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police, we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol.  Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse.  Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would.   Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's  a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will.  Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there.   As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont subscribe to this type of argument.  As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police, we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol.  Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse.  Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would.   Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's  a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will.  Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there.   As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.
		
Click to expand...

Just one point really. The countries you listed with armed officers. 

Hiw is many of them have had terrorist attacked recently?

armed officers won't deter terrorists. They expect to die, so won't fear it!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Just one point really. The countries you listed with armed officers. 

Hiw is many of them have had terrorist attacked recently?

armed officers won't deter terrorists. They expect to die, so won't fear it!
		
Click to expand...

I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists.  I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists.  I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.
		
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Yup: totally agree. The 21C society has left the unarmed Bobby days way back in history- much as we would wish they weren't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2017)

How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up and we don't need a fully armed police force. 

If anything it could cause more problems


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up and we don't need a fully armed police force. 

If anything it could cause more problems
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, were's the proof arming all our Police would improve our's and their lives?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists.  I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.
		
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Id be happy for there to be more armed police. And for them to be sent out more often when needed. So any time where violence is even remotely possible (drugs busts, domestic violence) for example. 

But having them them on the street isn't so,thing I want to see. I'd say our society is more akin to Americans than many central Europeans and I truly belive that in time our problems would rival theirs.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up *and we don't need a fully armed police force. *

*If anything it could cause more problems*

Click to expand...

By 'Fully Armed I guess you mean all police carrying a pstol? OK, please explain to me why we don't need one.  I am not being difficult here, I would really like to understand why you believe that.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Skier said:



*What an awful statement suggesting that the Police Force is corrupt*.  With an organisation as large as the police there is always going to be a few bad apples but please don't point a finger at the whole organisation.

IMO I wouldn't like to see all of our police armed.  Some police units now only have Clock Pistols and the thought of someone having to use a pistol (a weapon of last resort) is worrying - forget your cowboy films.

As Fish posted, this is an incident that there is little protection against. Lets hope the authorities stay away from knee jerk reactions.
		
Click to expand...

My statement is purely based on facts, past incidents and knowledge. 

Ian Tomlinson was UNLAWFULLY killed by a police officer, the police officer was found not guilty of manslaughter.

Does this sound like good practice from the authorities?

In the past we've had one force investigating another force  where the force under investigation have made officers  change statements etc, and there's plenty more.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists.  I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.
		
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Most police forces have had their budgets slashed to the point there's not enough officers out there on the frontline. 

With this in mind, who foots the bill for providing all officers with a gun?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			By 'Fully Armed I guess you mean all police carrying a pstol? OK, please explain to me why we don't need one.  I am not being difficult here, I would really like to understand why you believe that.
		
Click to expand...

Because the country isn't in the state to need a fully armed police force - your local village bobby doesn't need to be armed , my local town police force don't need to be armed , the motorway police don't need to be armed.

It's not that dangerous living in this country for their to be a fully armed police force. 

Yes in certain areas and in certain situations you need to have an armed presence but sorry but the UK isn't that bad an area to require every single person to be armed


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			Ian Tomlinson was UNLAWFULLY killed by a police officer, the police officer was found not guilty of manslaughter.
		
Click to expand...

By judge and jury, not by the police.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 23, 2017)

Having though listened to this thread and the arguments around police's averyday life becoming more dangerous I decided to do a little research to see if what appears to be true is fact. Surprisingly there were considerably more police deaths (51) in the 1980's than in any other decade in the last 120 years, followed by the previous decade (27). Since then the numbers have slowly fallen,  with this decade likely to see the lowest on record,  6 to date.
One officer death is one to many and we must all continue to do all we can to further reduce these numbers.  I dont feel that alianating police from the public by routinely arming them is the answer while the numbers are falling. Another case of perception at odds with reality.
PS I tried to find stats on European police force deaths for comparison but could find non.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2017)

Can't argue with facts.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2017)

News at ten says it wasn't a police officer who opened fire it was an MPs personal protection officer.
I thought these were police officers.


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## Leftie (Mar 23, 2017)

One report I heard was that it was a "plain clothes policeman" ......

I think that the word "officer" might be a clue.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because the country isn't in the state to need a fully armed police force - your local village bobby doesn't need to be armed , my local town police force don't need to be armed , the motorway police don't need to be armed.

It's not that dangerous living in this country for their to be a fully armed police force. 

Yes in certain areas and in certain situations you need to have an armed presence but sorry but the UK isn't that bad an area to require every single person to be armed
		
Click to expand...

We don't have village Bobbies anymore, we dont even have beat Bobbies in Towns.   You say they don't need to be armed but not why.   

You also say it's not dangerous living in this country.   Read this:
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-named-gun-crime-10894912

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime


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## bluewolf (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Can't argue with facts.
		
Click to expand...

Someone will.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			We don't have village Bobbies anymore, we dont even have beat Bobbies in Towns.   You say they don't need to be armed but not why.   

You also say it's not dangerous living in this country.   Read this:
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-named-gun-crime-10894912

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime

Click to expand...

That second article proofs my point - ten years ago there were 1000 homicides - now it's just over half that.

Birmingham in an area that does have an armed response unit 

And yes it's not dangerous living in this country 

The level of crime we have in this country does not justify the need to have armed police.

The General public as a majority do not have firearms. 

Firearms is not a major issue in 99% of the country so why have the whole force armed


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## spongebob59 (Mar 24, 2017)

https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/845064558548963328?s=09


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 24, 2017)

Leftie said:



			One report I heard was that it was a "plain clothes policeman" ......

I think that the word "officer" might be a clue.
		
Click to expand...

Could be Army officer. MI6 , MI5.


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			Could be Army officer. MI6 , MI5.
		
Click to expand...

You don't have to be in or even be ex-forces to be in or involved with MI5 or MI6, however, diplomatic security officers or diplomatic security personnel all carry side arms and that was the very first initial report I heard as the terrorist was gunned down before the other armed resonces arrived as he was shot whilst grappling with the officer who was sadly killed. If that individual whoever he was, was not in that vicinity at that time, who knows how much further the terrorist would have got? But in saying all that, diplomatic security personnel are everywhere in and around Westminster and are plain clothed.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

It was a police officer from the Close Protection Detail looking after the Defence Secretary


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			It was a police officer from the Close Protection Detail looking after the Defence Secretary
		
Click to expand...

That's why he wasn't immediately recognised then as he would be suited & booted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2017)

IanM said:



			Completely correct... and as likely as me winning the Masters. 

A element (of unknown size) in one religious community is committed to the destruction of secular western culture and its replacement with a Caliphate.  They don't care if we kill them as they think they'll be getting their leg over for eternity in paradise.  They take their instruction from old men who think the Earth is flat and women in tight jeans cause earthquakes.  (I just wish that was a joke)

Until we see mass "grassing" of offenders, expulsions from Mosques of offenders by their communities and protests of moderates on the streets , we've no chance.  These don't happen cos of fear or collusion ... or both
		
Click to expand...

But it is the only way I think.  Rather than take the approach some on the far right in Europe have taken over this (including Le Pen) who have used it as an argument for controlling immigration - when we now know our attacker was a fella called Adrian Russell Elms from Kent.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is the only way I think.  Rather than take the approach some on the far right in Europe have taken over this (including Le Pen) who have used it as an argument for controlling immigration - when we now know our attacker was a fella called Adrian Russell Elms from Kent.
		
Click to expand...

I hope Adrian Russell Elms isn't reading this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I hope Adrian Russell Elms isn't reading this.
		
Click to expand...

I doubt it...


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I doubt it...
		
Click to expand...

He might have preferred Ajao, you never know with these guys looking down from paradise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			He might have preferred Ajao, you never know with these guys looking down from paradise.
		
Click to expand...

He might well have - but for understanding of who the guy is I think his birth name speaks loud.  For those looking for it 'Ajao' does not sound very English, Scots, Welsh or NI'ish.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is the only way I think.  Rather than take the approach some on the far right in Europe have taken over this (including Le Pen) who have used it as an argument for controlling immigration - when we now know our attacker was a fella called Adrian Russell Elms from Kent.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is that we have allowed mass immigration and then have been brainwashed by the leftist Elite to accept multiculturalism so that these people with very different values are encouraged to live detached lives and live in detached communities where many (especially Women) do not even speak English.   You can suggest he is a British born Englishman with a British name but that hides the fact that he's not that, he is someone who detests us and wants our lives and culture destroyed.  I accept that all Muslims are not like this but it's about time they showed us by positive action that they are totally against these people, they need to show how they love their country and are committed to it's values by rejecting this brutality in the most verbal and demonstrative manner.   Multiculturalism was a mistake and needs binning so that we can truly be an integrated Nation.


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2017)

There was an MP called Enoch Powell who, while pretty extreme, tried to say too much immigration was a bad idea. The trouble was that his language was extreme which enabled him to be easily written off.

When the numbers were manageable and the vast majority of immigrants were legal they were accepted and welcomed. Unfortunately as numbers have increased some communities have become segregated leading to distrust. Religious zealots have fanned these flames and with significant numbers of illegal entrants disproportionately swelling numbers in some areas the distrust is getting worse and extreme jealously can be the result.

Hard to see how we can turn the clock back when many politicians refuse to admit there's an issue.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont subscribe to this type of argument.  As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police, we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol.  Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse.  Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would.   Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's  a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will.  Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there.   As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.
		
Click to expand...

In the European countries that you quote, what are the laws about carrying firearms?  When you know that you'll probably have the answer as to why these foreign forces carry firearms as the norm.  

So you want to give every bobby on the beat a gun?  Well the majority don't want it, as Police Federation polls have shown, so it's a reasonable bet that many would refuse to carry.  Even if you could force them, why would you want them to carry a piece of equipment that they don't actually want?  Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

How often do people come at policemen with a weapon?  Most of the incidents that involve serious injury don't start with people taking running jump at an officer, which would give him sufficient time to draw a firearm, give the required warning and then discharge it; they start when a close contact situation goes downhill, or in an attempt to avoid arrest and in those circumstances the officer is unlikely to be in a position to draw & use a firearm.

How many situations would an officer encounter when the firearm would be useful; nowhere near as many as those where it would be likely to be a liability is the truth of the matter.  Take the typical Saturday night British sport of the good old roll around in the boozer.  Going into a crowd situation like that, there is little if any chance that the officer will draw & use that firearm.  However there is every chance that one of the crowd will think it a good idea to try and relieve him of it.  So we've now got the officers dealing with the incident handicapped by the very piece of equipment that you think will solve the problem.

Add to this the costs, abstractions from duty for training, what to do with officers who don't meet the required standards and your bright idea isn't looking quite so bright; it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it won't even succeed in that.  The post you attempt to discredit is much nearer the truth than your counter argument.  if you honestly think the answer to whack jobs like this one is to hand out a sidearm to every serving officer then you really have lost the plot.

And could you possibly explain the relevance of John Peel to your argument; is it the legendary huntsman or the late DJ to whom you refer?  The modern Metropolitan Police force was started by Sir Robert Peel, hence the nickname "Bobbies".


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			In the European countries that you quote, what are the laws about carrying firearms?  When you know that you'll probably have the answer as to why these foreign forces carry firearms as the norm.  

So you want to give every bobby on the beat a gun?  Well the majority don't want it, as Police Federation polls have shown, so it's a reasonable bet that many would refuse to carry.  Even if you could force them, why would you want them to carry a piece of equipment that they don't actually want?  Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

How often do people come at policemen with a weapon?  Most of the incidents that involve serious injury don't start with people taking running jump at an officer, which would give him sufficient time to draw a firearm, give the required warning and then discharge it; they start when a close contact situation goes downhill, or in an attempt to avoid arrest and in those circumstances the officer is unlikely to be in a position to draw & use a firearm.

How many situations would an officer encounter when the firearm would be useful; nowhere near as many as those where it would be likely to be a liability is the truth of the matter.  Take the typical Saturday night British sport of the good old roll around in the boozer.  Going into a crowd situation like that, there is little if any chance that the officer will draw & use that firearm.  However there is every chance that one of the crowd will think it a good idea to try and relieve him of it.  So we've now got the officers dealing with the incident handicapped by the very piece of equipment that you think will solve the problem.

Add to this the costs, abstractions from duty for training, what to do with officers who don't meet the required standards and your bright idea isn't looking quite so bright; it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it won't even succeed in that.  The post you attempt to discredit is much nearer the truth than your counter argument.  if you honestly think the answer to whack jobs like this one is to hand out a sidearm to every serving officer then you really have lost the plot.

And could you possibly explain the relevance of John Peel to your argument; is it the legendary huntsman or the late DJ to whom you refer?  The modern Metropolitan Police force was started by Sir Robert Peel, hence the nickname "Bobbies".
		
Click to expand...

Since you don't seem capable of having a debate on the subject without throwing around insults and petty put downs then I wont bother replying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Since you don't seem capable of having a debate on the subject without throwing around insults and petty put downs then I wont bother replying.
		
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Is that code for being out of your depth?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Since you don't seem capable of having a debate on the subject without throwing around insults and petty put downs then I wont bother replying.
		
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In other words, you don't have an answer or a counter argument so you'll play the "petty insult" card.  From someone who refers to someone else on here as an oddball and told that person to "do one", that really is laughable.  :rofl:

And you did reply.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that code for being out of your depth?
		
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No, absolutely not, if you understand anything about me you should know I am more than capable of arguing my point and am willing and able to continue the discussion but not with someone who is attempting to turn it into a mud chucking comp.  If you would like to discuss it further or even the previous poster then I would be more than happy to reply to any given points as long as I'm not being drawn into insulting point scoring.   If you believe I'm out of my depth then make your case please.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			In other words, you don't have an answer or a counter argument so you'll play the "petty insult" card.  From someone who refers to someone else on here as an oddball and told that person to "do one", that really is laughable.  :rofl:

And you did reply. 

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I replied to inform you of the way you are dragging the discussion down.   I am more than willing to continue the discussion as long as it's debated on the issue and not dragged into name calling.  Up to you!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 24, 2017)

Think BIM makes some excellent points and has extensive professional experience on the "job"


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I replied to inform you of the way you are dragging the discussion down.   I am more than willing to continue the discussion as long as it's debated on the issue and not dragged into name calling.  Up to you!
		
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I presume you have knowledge and experience of being around weapons and understand the consequences of there use in the way that those who express their concerns about an all armed police force have.

If not I think that you should listen /read from those that have and argued that perhaps it's not a good idea.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I presume you have knowledge and experience of being around weapons and understand the consequences of there use in the way that those who express their concerns about an all armed police force have.

If not I think that you should listen /read from those that have and argued that perhaps it's not a good idea.
		
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I have a view and wish to express it, I assume this is acceptable.   Some may have more experience than me with Policing but that does not mean its wrong to question the way things are done and make suggestions on how it could be carried out differently.   I have made the case based on the way many other countries in Europe operate and my experience of them is they do it very well and have a different view on why they are armed.  I do not accept a cart blanch reply that it's not possible or correct for the UK to arm policemen.  I don't have experience or knowledge on the Trident Nuclear Deterrent but I do have an opinion on it and think I am entitled to it.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

Fair enough but you haven't given a reason what has happened in the UK to warrant a change of policy in arming the police when you have been given facts that show a reduction in crime and in violence towards the police.

Loads of boys in blue running around with weapons doesn't stop terrorists, ask any police officer who worked in NI.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Fair enough but you haven't given a reason what has happened in the UK to warrant a change of policy in arming the police when you have been given facts that show a reduction in crime and in violence towards the police.

Loads of boys in blue running around with weapons doesn't stop terrorists, ask any police officer who worked in NI.
		
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I did address this point earlier in the thread.  I explained that arming police will not stop terrorists but IMO will give additional protection to the officer and his ability to protect others.  I also gave information showing the large increase in gun crime in cities like Birmingham where the use of firearms is quite frightening.

I keep making the point that the vast majority of European countries arm their police without problem.  I cannot understand why the UK would have problems.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-named-gun-crime-10894912

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/figures-reveal-knife-crime-gun-11192063


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-concerned-spate-shootings-greater-manchester

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/already-been-more-shooting-incidents-12536451

http://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news...for_knife_and_gun_crime_in_Bradford_district/


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I did address this point earlier in the thread.  I explained that arming police will not stop terrorists but IMO will give additional protection to the officer and his ability to protect others.  I also gave information showing the large increase in gun crime in cities like Birmingham where the use of firearms is quite frightening.

I keep making the point that the vast majority of European countries arm their police without problem.  I cannot understand why the UK would have problems.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-named-gun-crime-10894912

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And on what experience is your opinion that having a firearm will better protect the officer and the public based?

British policing is based on Peelian principles, European pollcing is based on force; British policing deals with a situation where very few people carry firearms, European policing deals with a situation where a far higher number of the population can carry firearms legitimately.

There is a marked difference in the circumstances and it is far too simplistic to say that because they do it so can we.  That is clearly demonstrated by the photograph posted of the late Pc Keith Palmer with an American tourist.  A photograph for which he willingly posed, as will most British officers.  Try taking a photograph of their French, Spanish or Italian counterparts and watch the reaction.  It will go some way to explaining the differences in the cultures and why what is suitable for one culture is not necessarily suitable for another.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			And on what experience is your opinion that having a firearm will better protect the officer and the public based?

British policing is based on Peelian principles, European pollcing is based on force; British policing deals with a situation where very few people carry firearms, European policing deals with a situation where a far higher number of the population can carry firearms legitimately.

There is a marked difference in the circumstances and it is far too simplistic to say that because they do it so can we.  That is clearly demonstrated by the photograph posted of the late Pc Keith Palmer with an American tourist.  A photograph for which he willingly posed, as will most British officers.  Try taking a photograph of their French, Spanish or Italian counterparts and watch the reaction.  It will go some way to explaining the differences in the cultures and why what is suitable for one culture is not necessarily suitable for another.
		
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I don't need personal experience to form a view on an issue, if this was the case then only the Police would be able to make law and policy on how they operate. People in countries like Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, France etc are not at liberty to carry firearms and if anything are safer places to be out on the streets than many UK Cities, this has been my experience when living and working in these countries.    The first principal of Peelian Policing was to prevent crime, current UK policing methods do not seem to generally do this, it is more a reactionary force that is out of public view and used as a response reaction when crime has been committed.   In this case I would suggest being armed would be a precaution allowing the officers to better respond to whatever the situation presents itself with.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

Police in NI carried weapons and died during the 60-80s so where do you get the evidence that carrying weapons will protect the police.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Police in NI carried weapons and died during the 60-80s so where do you get the evidence that carrying weapons will protect the police.
		
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Are you suggesting more of them would have lived if they were unarmed in NI?

If I was a policeman faced with someone banishing a knife of firearm I would rather have a weapon to protect myself.   Alas, what we saw this week will only get worse and we should be fully prepared to protect our front line.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2017)

If I was a policeman I'd like to think my first concern was the safety of joe public rather than self preservation..

A bit like Keith Palmer I would suggest...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			If I was a policeman I'd like to think my first concern was the safety of joe public rather than self preservation..

A bit like Keith Palmer I would suggest...
		
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OK, so if a maniac with a knife or gun was attacking your Joe Public then how would you best defend them?


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2017)

A new low for the forum


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I did address this point earlier in the thread.  I explained that arming police will not stop terrorists but IMO will give additional protection to the officer and his ability to protect others.  I also gave information showing the large increase in gun crime in cities like Birmingham where the use of firearms is quite frightening.

I keep making the point that the vast majority of European countries arm their police without problem.  I cannot understand why the UK would have problems.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-named-gun-crime-10894912

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/figures-reveal-knife-crime-gun-11192063


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Earlier in the thread you posted a link about gun crime using it as back up to your theory about us being in a dangerous place now 

But what you failed to respond to was when I pointed out that it had actually halved since 2013 

Also someone else has posted an article that factually shows incidents resulting in fatality to have decreased since the 80's.

And the further articles you posted are based around areas where there are armed police response units 

The police force will have their officers carry what they believe to be what is required in their job - they do not need to be fully armed

BiM who is clearly speaking from an area of vast experience tells you exactly how it is and how it should be and he has based that with both facts and knowledge 

Im still to see something from yourself that provides enough basis to back up demands for a fully armed police force


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

bobmac said:



			A new low for the forum
		
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Is debating a serious subject a new low on the Forum.  I fail to understand your post.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Earlier in the thread you posted a link about gun crime using it as back up to your theory about us being in a dangerous place now 

But what you failed to respond to was when I pointed out that it had actually halved since 2013 

Also someone else has posted an article that factually shows incidents resulting in fatality to have decreased since the 80's.

And the further articles you posted are based around areas where there are armed police response units 

The police force will have their officers carry what they believe to be what is required in their job - they do not need to be fully armed

BiM who is clearly speaking from an area of vast experience tells you exactly how it is and how it should be and he has based that with both facts and knowledge 

Im still to see something from yourself that provides enough basis to back up demands for a fully armed police force
		
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I have a different view on the subject and I am making it.  BIM and Yourself are at will to disagree and post alternative views.  I think it's unfair to suggest I have not backed up my view (It's not a demand by the way)My view may not satisfy you but that's not a problem to me as once again you are entitled to it.   I seem to be experiencing Forum members taking the view that it's wrong to disagree with something even if you are doing your best to be polite when doing it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I have a different view on the subject and I am making it.  BIM and Yourself are at will to disagree and post alternative views.  I think it's unfair to suggest I have not backed up my view (It's not a demand by the way)My view may not satisfy you but that's not a problem to me as once again you are entitled to it.   I seem to be experiencing Forum members taking the view that it's wrong to disagree with something even if you are doing your best to be polite when doing it.
		
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Nobody is saying it's wrong to disagree, but instead of answering the replies (as you've failed to do to Phil here) you're making out you're being picked on!


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I have a different view on the subject and I am making it.  BIM and Yourself are at will to disagree and post alternative views.  I think it's unfair to suggest I have not backed up my view (It's not a demand by the way)My view may not satisfy you but that's not a problem to me as once again you are entitled to it.   I seem to be experiencing Forum members taking the view that it's wrong to disagree with something even if you are doing your best to be polite when doing it.
		
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But there comes a time when you just have to accept that both parties, and probably most on here simply disagree with your opinion on it so agree to disagree and don't drag it out more than it needs to be which will kill the thread!

The areas you link to in Birmingham which I know very well have armed police not just as a response unit, they are pretty much the fabric of the area in slightly different marked vehicles identifying them as carrying firearms and can be seen all the time, it would be pointless having the same armed officers in and around Solihull, so a fully armed police force is just not practicable, it can however be deployed in high risk areas, which it already is, and as I mentioned very early in the thread, when out in London at night you see many officers by their specific marked vehicles wearing side arms just out on patrol, so they are matched to the areas that could cause concern to offer more visible confidence, I wouldn't want to see them everywhere as I think it would actually cause the opposite effect and cause concern and worry! 

Like any issue or problem we address, or attempt to address, it should be aimed at the source and root problem, you don't knee jerk and arm everyone which will have little or no impact or even stop any future attacks!   

I've lived all over the world and a lot in the European countries you mention and if terrorists want to attack them, they will, no amount of armed officers will stop them, they don't consider risk as they are prepared to die for their warped cause!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			But there comes a time when you just have to accept that both parties, and probably most on here simply disagree with your opinion on it so agree to disagree and don't drag it out more than it needs to be which will kill the thread!

The areas you link to in Birmingham which I know very well have armed police not just as a response unit, they are pretty much the fabric of the area in slightly different marked vehicles identifying them as carrying firearms and can be seen all the time, it would be pointless having the same armed officers in and around Solihull, so a fully armed police force is just not practicable, it can however be deployed in high risk areas, which it already is, and as I mentioned very early in the thread, when out in London at night you see many officers by their specific marked vehicles wearing side arms just out on patrol, so they are matched to the areas that could cause concern to offer more visible confidence, I wouldn't want to see them everywhere as I think it would actually cause the opposite effect and cause concern and worry! 

Like any issue or problem we address, or attempt to address, it should be aimed at the source and root problem, you don't knee jerk and arm everyone which will have little or no impact or even stop any future attacks!   

I've lived all over the world and a lot in the European countries you mention and if terrorists want to attack them, they will, no amount of armed officers will stop them, they don't consider risk as they are prepared to die for their warped cause!
		
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Fair enough.  As you said I have made my point so will now leave it at that other than to say that It was put to me of being 'out of my depth' earlier on the thread when I tried to finish the debate.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't need personal experience to form a view on an issue,
		
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Indeed you don't, but I'd probably be inclined to have more time for your view if it was based on some experience of the subject being discussed.



SocketRocket said:



			I seem to be experiencing Forum members taking the view that it's wrong to disagree with something even if you are doing your best to be polite when doing it.
		
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What was wrong was not disagreeing, it was not providing some sound basis or debate for that disagreement.



pauldj42 said:



			Nobody is saying it's wrong to disagree, but instead of answering the replies (as you've failed to do to Phil here) you're making out you're being picked on!
		
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Spot on Paul.



SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough.  As you said I have made my point so will now leave it at that other than to say that *It was put to me of being 'out of my depth' earlier on the thread when I tried to finish the debate*.
		
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Er, no it wasn't; it was put to you that you were out of your depth when you chose to play the "petty insults" card to avoid debate rather than respond to the points raised in my post, whether or not you liked the style of it.  And considering your signature, is it not a little rich to be complaining about people throwing insults around?

Some years ago, I was posted to drive a Borough Commander around for the day.  Having seen press reports & comments on the officer, and having seen one of his recent decisions and vehemently disagreeing with it, it wasn't a posting I looked forward to.  From his rank, he could have been high & mighty but he wasn't.  He was happy to discuss & explain his viewpoint and happy to accept mine, agreeing with to some extent and understanding the concerns I raised but being happy to explain his reasoning.  I still didn't agree with the decision but I understood the reasons why he had made it, respected the reasoning and accepted the decision because he explained it, and came away with a greater respect for both the rank and the man.  One of the best days at work that I've had.  Perhaps if your posting style was more akin to this Borough Commander's attitude rather than the high & mighty approach that it has come across as to me in this and other threads then the debate might improve and you'd get more of the respect you feel you view deserves.  

As far as the guns issue goes, looking back over my service I can't think of many situations where one would have helped, but I can think of plenty where it was potentially a huge liability.  The sidearm is only of any use if you can see the issue coming, have time to draw it, issue the relevant warnings and then fire; as I posted previously, that was rarely the issue.  I'd suggest that knowing how the judges of hindsight would work in any inquiry after the use of a firearm, there would be a marked reluctance on the part of a number of officers to draw the weapon in the first place, making its value dubious at best.  For the vast majority of officers, a CS spray and a friction lock baton are more than sufficient to protect themselves & the public.  If we are to roll out more personal protection then it should be Tasers, not firearms.

If we do need more firearms available to the police, and I accept that may be necessary in the modern age, then it should be with properly trained dedicated squads, not every serving officer.  One of the great things about the Met was the variety of specialist posts meaning that practically any shaped peg could find a similarly shaped hole to fit into, resulting in happier and better performing officers.  A far better method that hammering every shaped peg into the one shaped hole, as the mass issue of firearms would to some degree do.  Whilst the days of Dixon of Dock Green may be far behind us, I would far prefer the force that polices me to aspire to that sort of policing than the shoot first, ask questions later approach.  I believe that it attracts a much more suitable individual to the role, and that it will be a sad day if we issue everybody with firearms simply because everyone else does it. The reason that British policing used to be respected the world over is precisely because we didn't do the same as everybody else.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough.  As you said I have made my point so will now leave it at that other than to say that It was put to me of being 'out of my depth' earlier on the thread when I tried to finish the debate.
		
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I, for one, agree with many of SR's statements and I fail to see why he's getting fried for expressing them.

The truth is that there are areas in the UK where the Police will not go: why? This is a total 'cop-out' as it means some people are held account whereas others who are within groups in a no-go-area aren't.

While arming the Police may not be the whole answer it can be part of a solution that should be considered. It should be possible to have a rational debate. Just because some-one isn't a member of a 'force' doesn't devalue their contribution. In fact sometimes an external , unconstrained opinion provides insight.

Were officers armed the response to this type of threat (and many others) can then be immediate and, as we know, in such situations reaction time is absolutely critical to containment.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed you don't, but I'd probably be inclined to have more time for your view if it was based on some experience of the subject being discussed.


What was wrong was not disagreeing, it was not providing some sound basis or debate for that disagreement.



Spot on Paul.



Er, no it wasn't; it was put to you that you were out of your depth when you chose to play the "petty insults" card to avoid debate rather than respond to the points raised in my post, whether or not you liked the style of it.  And considering your signature, is it not a little rich to be complaining about people throwing insults around?

Some years ago, I was posted to drive a Borough Commander around for the day.  Having seen press reports & comments on the officer, and having seen one of his recent decisions and vehemently disagreeing with it, it wasn't a posting I looked forward to.  From his rank, he could have been high & mighty but he wasn't.  He was happy to discuss & explain his viewpoint and happy to accept mine, agreeing with to some extent and understanding the concerns I raised but being happy to explain his reasoning.  I still didn't agree with the decision but I understood the reasons why he had made it, respected the reasoning and accepted the decision because he explained it, and came away with a greater respect for both the rank and the man.  One of the best days at work that I've had.  Perhaps if your posting style was more akin to this Borough Commander's attitude rather than the high & mighty approach that it has come across as to me in this and other threads then the debate might improve and you'd get more of the respect you feel you view deserves.  

As far as the guns issue goes, looking back over my service I can't think of many situations where one would have helped, but I can think of plenty where it was potentially a huge liability.  The sidearm is only of any use if you can see the issue coming, have time to draw it, issue the relevant warnings and then fire; as I posted previously, that was rarely the issue.  I'd suggest that knowing how the judges of hindsight would work in any inquiry after the use of a firearm, there would be a marked reluctance on the part of a number of officers to draw the weapon in the first place, making its value dubious at best.  For the vast majority of officers, a CS spray and a friction lock baton are more than sufficient to protect themselves & the public.  If we are to roll out more personal protection then it should be Tasers, not firearms.

If we do need more firearms available to the police, and I accept that may be necessary in the modern age, then it should be with properly trained dedicated squads, not every serving officer.  One of the great things about the Met was the variety of specialist posts meaning that practically any shaped peg could find a similarly shaped hole to fit into, resulting in happier and better performing officers.  A far better method that hammering every shaped peg into the one shaped hole, as the mass issue of firearms would to some degree do.  Whilst the days of Dixon of Dock Green may be far behind us, I would far prefer the force that polices me to aspire to that sort of policing than the shoot first, ask questions later approach.  I believe that it attracts a much more suitable individual to the role, and that it will be a sad day if we issue everybody with firearms simply because everyone else does it. The reason that British policing used to be respected the world over is precisely because we didn't do the same as everybody else.
		
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Australia and Canada have based their Policing on our system but have decided to arm their Policemen without due concern but New Zealand remain unarmed.

Anyhow, I appear to have outstayed my time on this subject so respectfully will leave it there.  Thank you for your opinion.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			I, for one, agree with many of SR's statements and I fail to see why he's getting fried for expressing them.

The truth is that there are areas in the UK where the Police will not go: why? This is a total 'cop-out' as it means some people are held account whereas others who are within groups in a no-go-area aren't.

While arming the Police may not be the whole answer it can be part of a solution that should be considered. It should be possible to have a rational debate. Just because some-one isn't a member of a 'force' doesn't devalue their contribution. In fact sometimes an external , unconstrained opinion provides insight.

Were officers armed the response to this type of threat (and many others) can then be immediate and, as we know, in such situations reaction time is absolutely critical to containment.
		
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I don't believe he's being fried for expressing them; I believe the flak he is taking is because he fails to respond to direct questions or explain his logic, but simply keeps repeating the mantra that they do it abroad therefore we need to do it here without providing any other justification, and his posts come across as high-handed as a consequence.  I'd fully agree with your point that sometimes a view from outside can see areas overlooked by those inside, it can be the most insightful form of criticism but that view from the outside needs to be explained and debated, which I don't see happening here.

When undertaking an advanced driving course, one of the requirements was to provide a commentary so that the instructor & the examiner knew the logic behind the decisions and that the student was doing the right thing for the right reasons, or had the right reasons but was coming to the wrong conclusion, or was doing the right thing but was coming to that conclusion for the wrong reasons.  It either reinforced that the student had grasped the concept and was applying it properly or highlighted the areas that needed to be worked on.  That's not happening here; we're being given a conclusion by someone with limited if any experience in the field, a conclusion which some of us with greater experience in the matter disagree, but not the explanation to have that rational debate, hence the flak.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 25, 2017)

Steady on BIM, you're sounding all rational :rofl:


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Steady on BIM, you're sounding all rational :rofl:
		
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Why is it always the moderators that lower the tone on hereâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦. :angry:  :ears:    :cheers:


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			I don't believe he's being fried for expressing them; I believe the flak he is taking is because he fails to respond to direct questions or explain his logic, but simply keeps repeating the mantra that they do it abroad therefore we need to do it here without providing any other justification, and his posts come across as high-handed as a consequence.  I'd fully agree with your point that sometimes a view from outside can see areas overlooked by those inside, it can be the most insightful form of criticism but that view from the outside needs to be explained and debated, which I don't see happening here.

When undertaking an advanced driving course, one of the requirements was to provide a commentary so that the instructor & the examiner knew the logic behind the decisions and that the student was doing the right thing for the right reasons, or had the right reasons but was coming to the wrong conclusion, or was doing the right thing but was coming to that conclusion for the wrong reasons.  It either reinforced that the student had grasped the concept and was applying it properly or highlighted the areas that needed to be worked on.  That's not happening here; we're being given a conclusion by someone with limited if any experience in the field, a conclusion which some of us with greater experience in the matter disagree, but not the explanation to have that rational debate, hence the flak.
		
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I wanted to leave the debate as it was but if you must continue to make these assertions then I must respond.  I did explain quite clearly what had formed my opinion on Police being armed and it's wrong for you to suggest otherwise.  I accept you may have been or are in the Police but that doesnt give you the right to suggest I dont have the wherewithal to form my own opinion.  I think that kind of attitude is elitist and bigoted.  How can you suggest I have not answered questions, I may decide not to keep repeating my answers but I have made a good effort to support my views.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2017)

I was an advisor to a Force on their driver training. Some of the commentary was horrendous (from instructors !) so you picked a bad example.

As for  questioning SR'S reference to overseas forces. If they are irrelevant why do we spend so much with foreign visits and exchange programmes.

Anyway this is diverting the thread from the heinous attack the consequences of which were mitigated by an armed officer on the spot: preventing the need to wait for a armed team!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I wanted to leave the debate as it was but if you must continue to make these assertions then I must respond. *I did explain quite clearly what had formed my opinion on Police being armed and it's wrong for you to suggest otherwise.* I accept you may have been or are in the Police but that doesnt give you the right to suggest I dont have the wherewithal to form my own opinion. I think that kind of attitude is elitist and bigoted. How can you suggest I have not answered questions, I may decide not to keep repeating my answers but I have made a good effort to support my views.
		
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I've quoted a number of your posts below.  None have had text edited out, but I have highlighted some text below;



SocketRocket said:



			Arm all Police.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			The dead Policeman was not armed, if he was then he may still be alive.   That would have been good enough reason.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			What is then?   One Policeman may still be alive today if he had been armed, is that not enough!
		
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SocketRocket said:



*So why do Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Spain et al arm their Police.*  Are they somehow different people opr more civilised
		
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SocketRocket said:



*I repeat to you what I have said to others.  Look at the Police in other European Countries who are armed.*  Are our police somehow less capable than them of being armed. If you had a gun and someone was about to stab you would you defend yourself?  I know what I would do.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Tash.  If Bobbies are armed then that's part of the job, *as i have been saying most European countries arm their police* and dont have problems with recruiting.   If the poor Policeman who died today had been armed then their would probably have been a different outcome.  We are not living in the days of John Peel anymore and need to face up to the reality of whats happening out there.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			If it's part of the job you do it or dont do the job.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Thats a pretty poor post.  I am suggesting that if we changed our policy then Policemen would not be left in such vulnerable situations.   To suggest that this is disrespectful to him is not necessary and wrong.
		
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SocketRocket said:



*Is that the case in most European countries?*

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SocketRocket said:



			I just dont subscribe to this type of argument.  *As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police,* we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol.  Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse.  *Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this *but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would.   Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's  a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will.  Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there.   As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.
		
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That to me is repeating the that they do it abroad therefore we need to do it here.  You are not providing any explanation to justify your viewpoint but challenging others to prove why they consider it wrong.  I think that more than covers where you haven't answered questions or made an effort to justify your views, you've simply posted a few links.

I haven't suggested that you don't have the wherewithal to form your own opinion; what I have suggested is that without knowing the full ins & outs that the job entails that your opinion as to whether there is a need to arm all officers full time carries less weight than that of someone who has; big difference.  My post to drdel clearly accepts that outside views can be very useful, provided there is an explanation of the logic and that you haven't provided.  The elitist & bigoted comment is nothing more than a poor attempt at deflection when the post you quote actually accepts the validity of external critique.

I find it quite ironic, given your aversion to Europe in another thread, is that the only reason you seem to be able to find to justify arming all police is that it is the done thing in Europeâ€¦â€¦..


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I wanted to leave the debate as it was but if you must continue to make these assertions then I must respond.  I did explain quite clearly what had formed my opinion on Police being armed and it's wrong for you to suggest otherwise.  I accept you may have been or are in the Police but that doesnt give you the right to suggest I dont have the wherewithal to form my own opinion.  I think that kind of attitude is elitist and bigoted.  How can you suggest I have not answered questions, I may decide not to keep repeating my answers but I have made a good effort to support my views.
		
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Ok can you answer this 

When I said that the country isn't that dangerous a place to justify armed police you used the following article about the level of police recorded homicides on the increase 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime

But if you read the article at the end it shows that in 2016 there was just over 500 but in 2003 there was over 1000 - so actually it had dropped dramatically 

You have also used articles from areas like Birmingham , London , Manchester etc who already have armed response units - so the areas that do have issues with possible firearms already have in place police with armed response 

So the next question is - why does my local town police force need to be armed ? Why do the Motorway police need to be armed ? 

And please are you able to provide a reason different than - "other countries have armed police"


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2017)

My fear of arming all officers is 
If all officers were armed the Crims would then arm themselves as standard practice because it's the only way to get away from the police!
You would see gun fights every day like in the USA and in doing so lots more accidents.
Was a bit suprissed officers in parliament are not armed as it's an obvious target.
This leads to another thread about cost of modernising parliament building.
Build a new chamber somewhere else with security as the main thing this would cost less and make the safety of MPs and staff/ police the main priority.
Just use old building for the tourists.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			I was an advisor to a Force on their driver training. *Some of the commentary was horrendous (from instructors !) so you picked a bad example.*

As for  questioning SR'S reference to overseas forces. If they are irrelevant why do we spend so much with foreign visits and exchange programmes.

Anyway this is diverting the thread from the heinous attack the consequences of which were mitigated by an armed officer on the spot: preventing the need to wait for a armed team!
		
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Have I picked a bad example; or have you seen a bad example of a sound practice?  The instructor that I had was good, used it well and 20+ years on I still remember it.  There is no reason why we can't both be right in this instance.

I did not say they were irrelevant; I said that just because they do it doesn't mean it is the right thing for us.  Maybe the reason for the foreign visits is to check that it is still the case?  Or liaison visits given that crime has a very different face these days and is much more international, thus a need to share best practice?  I'm not saying we can't learn from studying other force practices, just that the fact that they do it is not in itself sufficient justification. 

I do not dispute that an armed officer in the right place stopped this; what I am disputing is that the right place for a firearm is on the hip of every police officer in the country; I have no argument against the right firearm in the hands of the right officer with the right training in the right location.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Have I picked a bad example; or have you seen a bad example of a sound practice?  The instructor that I had was good, used it well and 20+ years on I still remember it.  There is no reason why we can't both be right in this instance.

I did not say they were irrelevant; I said that just because they do it doesn't mean it is the right thing for us.  Maybe the reason for the foreign visits is to check that it is still the case?  Or liaison visits given that crime has a very different face these days and is much more international, thus a need to share best practice?  I'm not saying we can't learn from studying other force practices, just that the fact that they do it is not in itself sufficient justification. 

I do not dispute that an armed officer in the right place stopped this; what I am disputing is that the right place for a firearm is on the hip of every police officer in the country; I have no argument against the right firearm in the hands of the right officer with the right training in the right location.
		
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I'm sure your 20:20 insight will give you sufficient advance warning of where the next right place and right time will be.

You have just made the point against yourself. Rapid reason teams are an expense and inadequate means of provided cover as any military strategies will confirm: especially in assymetric operations. 

I will leave you to your views as there is no basis for agreement and the thread is descending and a detraction from the event.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			I've quoted a number of your posts below.  None have had text edited out, but I have highlighted some text below;





















That to me is repeating the that they do it abroad therefore we need to do it here.  You are not providing any explanation to justify your viewpoint but challenging others to prove why they consider it wrong.  I think that more than covers where you haven't answered questions or made an effort to justify your views, you've simply posted a few links.

I haven't suggested that you don't have the wherewithal to form your own opinion; what I have suggested is that without knowing the full ins & outs that the job entails that your opinion as to whether there is a need to arm all officers full time carries less weight than that of someone who has; big difference.  My post to drdel clearly accepts that outside views can be very useful, provided there is an explanation of the logic and that you haven't provided.  The elitist & bigoted comment is nothing more than a poor attempt at deflection when the post you quote actually accepts the validity of external critique.

I find it quite ironic, given your aversion to Europe in another thread, is that the only reason you seem to be able to find to justify arming all police is that it is the done thing in Europeâ€¦â€¦..
		
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I have no aversion to Europe, it's the EU I have an aversion to, do you know the difference?  I do have a fairly extensive experience of working and living in Europe and especially Germany where I have some very good friends. My experience while there is that the police being armed works well and gives the public some reassurance that they are in a position to give a very rapid response to threats of violence, much better than the time it would take to summon and deploy an armed response unit. There are obviously situations where such a unit would be better but not in all cases.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			I'm sure your 20:20 insight will give you sufficient advance warning of where the next right place and right time will be.

You have just made the point against yourself. Rapid reason teams are an expense and inadequate means of provided cover as any military strategies will confirm: especially in assymetric operations. 

I will leave you to your views as there is no basis for agreement and the thread is descending and a detraction from the event.
		
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Unfortunate that you've chosen to sink to sarcasm because you're normally better than that.  I've never argued against fixed posts, I just feel that the answer, if we require more armed officers, is properly trained ones strategically placed and deployed as required rather than a sidearm on every man jack, the majority of whom don't want them and would be reluctant to use them.  And it doesn't matter how well you arm and train officers, they still need the time to react in order to use that weapon.  And if all officers are armed and one does go down, that firearm is then in the hands of the oppositionâ€¦..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Genuine question.  We train Police Officers to use Tazers, is it more difficult to train them to use a sidearm?  I had training in the use of small arms in the Navy and it seemed straight forward enough.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question.  We train Police Officers to use Tazers, is it more difficult to train them to use a sidearm?  I had training in the use of small arms in the Navy and it seemed straight forward enough.
		
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Given that Ta*s*er training is for immobilisation, as opposed to 'elimination', I believe that *Police* training will be significantly different! 

Armed Forces training is all about elimination of the threat, so is a completely different - and simpler - training regime!


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I have no aversion to Europe, it's the EU I have an aversion to, do you know the difference?  I do have a fairly extensive experience of working and living in Europe and especially Germany where I have some very good friends. My experience while there is that the police being armed works well and gives the public some reassurance that they are in a position to give a very rapid response to threats of violence, much better than the time it would take to summon and deploy an armed response unit. There are obviously situations where such a unit would be better but not in all cases.
		
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I wouldn't be that reassured to see the Police armed for the simple reason I can't remember the last time I saw a bobby on the beat.

By all means protect obvious targets, like airports, but what's the point of giving every Policeman a gun? I'd rather see the money spent on getting more Police presence out on the streets.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question.  We train Police Officers to use Tazers, is it more difficult to train them to use a sidearm?  I had training in the use of small arms in the Navy and it seemed straight forward enough.
		
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Never having done it personally, I can't answer the question as to difficulty in training.  What I can say is that they would be more readily accepted by the majority of officers as they would be viewed as a non-lethal option as opposed to the finality of a firearm, and I believe the general public would be more accepting of a Tazer than a firearm.  There is also the advantage that you can potentially interrogate the suspect afterwards.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question.  We train Police Officers to use Tazers, is it more difficult to train them to use a sidearm?
		
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Yes, I knew plenty who were excellent with rifles and overall very good service personnel but struggled with a side arm.  

drawing a side arm is much more of a conscious decision than drawing a taser, plus, going into a close quarter situation (house) with a side arm drawn takes a lot of training and some officers just won't pass that test, so to arm them all could lead to many errors in judgement, they didn't join to be put in that situation, so its another vote against arming all officers imo.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't be that reassured to see the Police armed for the simple reason I can't remember the last time I saw a bobby on the beat.

By all means protect obvious targets, like airports, but what's the point of giving every Policeman a gun? *I'd rather see the money spent on getting more Police presence out on the streets*.
		
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I agree with that.  Police on the streets are a deterrent to crime, currently our Police are more of a reactionary force that are called out when a crime has been committed in most cases.   I suppose the current attack in London was in one of the areas like Airports where the Police are a visible deterrent though.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			Yes, I knew plenty who were excellent with rifles and overall very good service personnel but struggled with a side arm.  

drawing a side arm is much more of a conscious decision than drawing a taser, plus, going into a close quarter situation (house) with a side arm drawn takes a lot of training and some officers just won't pass that test, so to arm them all could lead to many errors in judgement, they didn't join to be put in that situation, so its another vote against arming all officers imo.
		
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I know I keep banging on about other European Police forces but I still find it difficult to understand how they can be armed and have these operational problems.  Can you explain please Fish?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I know I keep banging on about other European Police forces but I still find it difficult to understand how they can be armed and have these operational problems.  Can you explain please Fish?
		
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Is there any other reason you can find beyond "other European Police Forces"

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....cers-do-not-carry-firearms-and-it-works-well/


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there any other reason you can find beyond "other European Police Forces"

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....cers-do-not-carry-firearms-and-it-works-well/

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Whats it got to do with you, You aren't Fish, I'm not asking you for an answer.  We have established we don't agree on this so as far as I am concerned I have nothing else to discuss with you and I would suggest you take the same view, that is unless you just want to just argue about something?


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## Pants (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats it got to do with you, You aren't Fish, I'm not asking you for an answer.  We have established we don't agree on this so as far as I am concerned I have nothing else to discuss with you and I would suggest you take the same view, that is unless you just want to just argue about something?
		
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So that would be a "no" then.

I would suggest that if you want a one to one conversation with Fish, then take it to PM.  As this is a public forum you must accept that others might have an opinion or questions as well as you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats it got to do with you, You aren't Fish, I'm not asking you for an answer.  We have established we don't agree on this so as far as I am concerned I have nothing else to discuss with you and I would suggest you take the same view, that is unless you just want to just argue about something?
		
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Sorry it's a public forum - if you want to have personal conversations then have them across private messages. If you post something that I would like to reply to then I will - and I have done throughout this thread respectfully.

But again I see you have avoided the hard questions that challenge your opinion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 25, 2017)

Socket
You need to calm down mate, it's a golf forum, whatever we spout on here doesn't make to the decision makers at Westminster.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I know I keep banging on about other European Police forces but I still find it difficult to understand how they can be armed and have these operational problems.  Can you explain please Fish?
		
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So you want to effectively train all the existing officers so they can/must carry side arms, even though they were never selected on that basis, but what do we do with all the officers that fail that test?  

All the European officers that you constantly go on about were obviously trained from their basic selection process so you can't compare our current forces to them and/or their ability to use side arms imo. 

Plus I've seen the actions, very poor aggressive actions of European officers first hand, so again, I don't think you can compare what are very different cultures, our police are extremely professional in the main and pretty approachable, I don't think the Europeans are imo.


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## Midnight (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I know I keep banging on about other European Police forces but I still find it difficult to understand how they can be armed and have these operational problems.  Can you explain please Fish?
		
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Mate,
I think but i am not 100% sure (i will find out though), but there selection process would be different to ours at the moment.
One of the main issues for us would be the extra training, we already struggle to cover officers having to go and do regular refresher courses on things like tazer, driving etc.
The other issue would be what happens to officers that don't want to carry a firearm or are not deemed suitable to do this?
In my own personal opinion, i believe the way forward is to increase the armed response units, i know that is what we are doing . Is it enough? I honestly do not know.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Pants said:



			So that would be a "no" then.

I would suggest that if you want a one to one conversation with Fish, then take it to PM.  As this is a public forum you must accept that others might have an opinion or questions as well as you.
		
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I dont have to discuss it with them though.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Fish said:



			So you want to effectively train all the existing officers so they can/must carry side arms, even though they were never selected on that basis, but what do we do with all the officers that fail that test?  

All the European officers that you constantly go on about were obviously trained from their basic selection process so you can't compare our current forces to them and/or their ability to use side arms imo. 

Plus I've seen the actions, very poor aggressive actions of European officers first hand, so again, I don't think you can compare what are very different cultures, our police are extremely professional in the main and pretty approachable, I don't think the Europeans are imo.
		
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OK, thanks.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry it's a public forum - if you want to have personal conversations then have them across private messages. If you post something that I would like to reply to then I will - and I have done throughout this thread respectfully.

But again I see you have avoided the hard questions that challenge your opinion.
		
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OK, it's a members Forum and as such I'm just not interested in discussing it further with you.  You have already made your view clear, I understand it and see no need to discuss it with you further.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Socket
You need to calm down mate, it's a golf forum, whatever we spout on here doesn't make to the decision makers at Westminster.
		
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I am quite calm thanks.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight said:



			Mate,
I think but i am not 100% sure (i will find out though), but there selection process would be different to ours at the moment.
One of the main issues for us would be the extra training, we already struggle to cover officers having to go and do regular refresher courses on things like tazer, driving etc.
The other issue would be what happens to officers that don't want to carry a firearm or are not deemed suitable to do this?
In my own personal opinion, i believe the way forward is to increase the armed response units, i know that is what we are doing . Is it enough? I honestly do not know.
		
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OK, thanks for your view.  I guess it will only poke the hornets nest if I were to say that other countries don't seem to have these problems.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight said:



			Mate,
I think but i am not 100% sure (i will find out though), but there selection process would be different to ours at the moment.
One of the main issues for us would be the extra training, we already struggle to cover officers having to go and do regular refresher courses on things like tazer, driving etc.
The other issue would be what happens to officers that don't want to carry a firearm or are not deemed suitable to do this?
In my own personal opinion, i believe the way forward is to increase the armed response units, i know that is what we are doing . Is it enough? I honestly do not know.
		
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Have they done another survey since the mid 00's to see how the police feel about being armed - they said on the radio it was about 87% of them that didn't want to be armed ?


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## Midnight (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, thanks for your view.  I guess it will only poke the hornets nest if I were to say that other countries don't seem to have these problems.
		
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It probably would mate &#128513;&#128513;. 
What would be interesting, would be to find out what problems they had/didn't when they made the decision to arm all officers. I would hope that those higher up than me would know the answers to that as there is a lot of collaboration on various items with forces all over the world.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, it's a members Forum and as such I'm just not interested in discussing it further with you.  You have already made your view clear, I understand it and see no need to discuss it with you further.
		
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Then for someone who appears to be a smart person the simple answer for you is that anyone you don't want to answer or maybe you can't because the question is too tough - don't respond , meet it with silence but just because you post towards SILH and others in the EU threads with a high and almighty attitude doesn't mean you can do it on every thread.


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## Midnight (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have they done another survey since the mid 00's to see how the police feel about being armed - they said on the radio it was about 87% of them that didn't want to be armed ?
		
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To be honest Phil, i can not remember , i am in tonight so will ask (if i get time.)


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

I am now leaving this thread as it seems my view is annoying a number of members.
There seems no valid point to keep reiterating different views that are not going to converge so I would respectfully request we leave the issue of arming Police now as it's going nowhere.

Thanks.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2017)

SR how far did you want to go with arming the boys in blue. The German police in Berlin used to go around with Charlie G's, Claymores, handgrenades and other assorted weaponary in the back of their vehicles.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight said:



			To be honest Phil, i can not remember , i am in tonight so will ask (if i get time.)
		
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Had a good chat with one of the guys i used to play hockey with who is now on the motorways in regard arming - he was in the belief of the specialist response units. All it would take is one person to get hold of a policemans firearm and the consequences could be awful. I expect for your average person it's prob very hard to get hold of a firearm - putting them on a policeman puts them withing reaching distance maybe ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then for someone who appears to be a smart person the simple answer for you is that anyone you don't want to answer or maybe you can't because the question is too tough - don't respond , meet it with silence but just because you post towards SILH and others in the EU threads with a high and almighty attitude doesn't mean you can do it on every thread.
		
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Oh Dear!


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2017)

On your point of European police, France isbroken into 3 divisions, they have the Gendarmerie who are almost army like with a huge array of weapons to use and do carry all the time, you then have the National police who have a lesser choice of weapons and dont all carry but do in sensative or hotspot areas, and then you have the local Municipal police who don't carry at all! 

So there's 1 European country that isn't a straight like for like comparison to make.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2017)

German plod all have side arms but they aren't allowed bullets in case they take over Europe again. That didn't work


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## Midnight (Mar 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Had a good chat with one of the guys i used to play hockey with who is now on the motorways in regard arming - he was in the belief of the specialist response units. All it would take is one person to get hold of a policemans firearm and the consequences could be awful. I expect for your average person it's prob very hard to get hold of a firearm - putting them on a policeman puts them withing reaching distance maybe ?
		
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I would agree with this Phil. There are some very,very good officers who I am happy to work with but i would worry if they had a firearm.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2017)

I just read about the attack in France 2015 when 2 UNARMED police officers were gunned down, it went on to say that even if they had been armed with side arms it would have made no difference as they were quickly gunned down by AK-47's and they would never have had the opportunity to draw their weapons!


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I am now leaving this thread as it seems my view is annoying a number of members.
There seems no valid point to keep reiterating different views that are not going to converge so I would respectfully request we leave the issue of arming Police now as it's going nowhere.

Thanks.
		
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:whoo:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2017)

Met Police Federation has just finished a survey in Jan from it's members about being fully armed.

Article also states last poll had 58% of the public in favour of fully armed police.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...sked-want-carry-guns-wake-terror-attacks/amp/


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Article also states last poll had 58% of the public in favour of fully armed police.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...sked-want-carry-guns-wake-terror-attacks/amp/

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Surely that's 58% of those polled rather than 58% of the public...

And, can we trust polls in light of recent outcomes...


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## NWJocko (Mar 25, 2017)

I was pretty close to this on Wednesday last week in London.

Firstly, horrendous for those injured and killed either doing their job or enjoying the City.

The speed of response was hugely impressive with armed police and units seemingly appearing from nowhere to fill the streets and stations.  I made my way back across the City asap and couldn't believe how many armed police were around in general and (I guess) at potential other targets.

In terms of arming all police officers, based on the response I saw that reinforced my previous thoughts I don't think it's necessary.  Having the right people/units in the right places for rapid response would seem be the most important thing IMO.

I'm quite surprised the poor PC who lost his life wasn't armed purely because of their position but there are people far better qualified than I am to assess which police "on the street" require arming and where specific armed units need to be etc.


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## Leftie (Mar 25, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Met Police Federation has just finished a survey in Jan from it's members about being fully armed.

Article also states last poll had 58% of the public in favour of fully armed police.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...sked-want-carry-guns-wake-terror-attacks/amp/

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"At a glance | Armed police around the world
America
Police in the United States routinely carry a handgun while on duty, and can also be required to have an off-duty weapon. *Several hundred people a year are shot dead by police officers*.

France
Members of the National Police and the Gendarmerie are usually required to carry a handgun when on duty.

Germany
Police are armed and are also allowed to carry their department issued firearms while off-duty.

Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Ireland and Britain
Most police officers are unarmed while on patrol.

Brazil
*Police are armed and shoot thousands of people a year*."

Just one of several reasons why not all police should be armed.  (Not, I hasten to add, that I believe that the British Bobbies would ever be as gung-ho as the American police)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2017)

I've not commented much at all on this is far - and haven't got back through 20 pages of posts.  

But just in respect of how we view and react to terrorist attacks such as this.  I take a rather pragmatic view.  100yrs ago very few were dying as a result of car accidents - in fact it was 'just' 120yrs ago that saw the very first death.

Today?  Deaths in vehicle road accidents are unfortunately commonplace - with over 1700 fatalities in 2013.  This is an unfortunate fact of life that we accept - and indeed it is a fact of life that is not absolutely inevitable as we could halt that immediately were we to get rid of road traffic. 

And multiple fatalities are not unusual.  So four fatalities as a result of a crash on the M4 (say).  It is tragic for the families but not deemed tragic for wider society.  We do not stop driving on the M4 or on other motorways. The authorities look at the accident for the cause and if lessons can be learned.  But each and every one of us knows the risks associated with driving - and we know the steps we have to take to minimise the likelihood that we will be involved in such an accident,  we can't prevent us being involved - but we can minimise the risk.  We know what to do - we know what NOT to do.

And so I see it with terrorist attacks of the nature of last week.

We accept that there will now *always* be a risk.  But we know what to do ourselves to minimise the risk, and we know that the authorities will also be looking into what to do to minimise and counter it.

And we get on with living.  We don't go around patting ourselves on the back for doing so - for were we to do that then that adds kudos to the acts and to those perpetrating such acts.


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## Snelly (Mar 27, 2017)

I am in favour of all police officers being armed.   I suspect many more on this forum are as well but do not want to be on the receiving end of a torrent of criticism.


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2017)

Last week's incident was unlikely to have been a planned acted of terror. Containment was achieved by an armed officer   on the spot. These rogue fanatics and criminals will not sit around and wait for an armed response team before causing maybe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2017)

Snelly said:



			I am in favour of all police officers being armed.   I suspect many more on this forum are as well but do not want to be on the receiving end of a torrent of criticism.
		
Click to expand...

Not for it.  My understanding and experience of armed police in the US and on the continent is that you just do not approach them so readily and unless you have a problem.  And on their side they are much less accepting of your approach and will ask you to not get close (risk of you grabbing their gun?).  

The fact that we can all just wander up to a police officer for a chat - and maybe a hug or a laugh - is what makes our police force special; that officers do not generally feel threatened by a member of the public approaching them.  That is for me at the core what is oft said about our policing - but not so well understood - _in the UK we do policing by consent._


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## Snelly (Mar 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not for it.  My understanding and experience of armed police in the US and on the continent is that you just do not approach them so readily and unless you have a problem.  And on their side they are much less accepting of your approach and will ask you to not get close (risk of you grabbing their gun?).  

The fact that we can all just wander up to a police officer for a chat - and maybe a hug or a laugh - is what makes our police force special; that officers do not generally feel threatened by a member of the public approaching them.  That is for me at the core what is oft said about our policing - but not so well understood - _in the UK we do policing by consent._

Click to expand...

When I say I am in favour, I think what I really mean is I would not object to it.  Am fairly agnostic about it.   

And I certainly don't feel the US police are anything massively different to ours and am in the States often.  Then again, I am not young, poor and black.


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