# Hogan & rolling the wrists



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 5, 2019)

Found this on the Plane Truth (Jim Hardy) Facebook page, quote by Ben Hogan. *â€I hit the ball too low and hooked badly. I was trying to open the club and delay the crossover in the downswing to stop the hook and hit the ball higher. That didnâ€™t work so I reversed it and opened the club as much as I could in the backswing and then tried to close the club and crossover as soon as I could in the downswing. Immediately the ball went higher and didnâ€™t hook â€œ  *This is the complete opposite of what I have been taught for years, don't roll the wrists, but is more or less what Hardy teaches for his "One Plane" swing. The idea is that, early in the downswing, you close the face so that the face is parallel to the swing plane and turn the entire upper body & arms into the ball. with face & swing plane aligned the worst you can do is hit a slight push or pull. 

I have just tried this at the range. I thought it would lead to wild inaccuracy but the opposite was true. My bad shot is a weak, powerless push fade, this never happened doing the above. The shots felt effortless and were remarkably straight. Recently Bobmac looked at a video of my swing & remarked on the amount of wrist rolling I do. I respect his opinion a lot & would love to hear his thoughts on this. Apologies, I don't know where the Hogan quote came from but I've no doubt it is authentic. 

What thoughts / experiences has anyone got?


----------



## bobmac (Nov 5, 2019)

If something works for you and is repeatable, especially under pressure, go for it.
Having said that, I would never encourage anyone to roll their wrists, it's just asking for trouble and inconsistency.

As the wrists are controlled by fast twitch muscles, trying to open the face on the backswing and square it back up on the downswing would be very difficult to do consistently especially under pressure.
Better to keep the clubface square throughout the swing and let the big slow twitch muscles do the work.
That goes for all shots including putting.
Kind of makes sense to me.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 5, 2019)

bobmac said:



			If something works for you and is repeatable, especially under pressure, go for it.
Having said that, I would never encourage anyone to roll their wrists, it's just asking for trouble and inconsistency.

As the wrists are controlled by fast twitch muscles, trying to open the face on the backswing and square it back up on the downswing would be very difficult to do consistently especially under pressure.
Better to keep the clubface square throughout the swing and let the big slow twitch muscles do the work.
That goes for all shots including putting.
Kind of makes sense to me.
		
Click to expand...

It makes sense to me too, Bob, but this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing? I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 5, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



*It makes sense to me too, Bob, but* this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. *Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing?* I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.
		
Click to expand...

If it doesn't make sense, why do it ?
How much wrist roll is there and how do you know you're opening and closing the same amount at high speed?
Although if it is an itch you want to scratch, then I guess this is the time of year to try it.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/hank-haney-driving-fault# 
and there are many more.


----------



## virtuocity (Nov 5, 2019)

Fore left


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 5, 2019)

virtuocity said:



			Fore left
		
Click to expand...

Not once!


----------



## Depreston (Nov 5, 2019)

Is there a difference between rolling the wrists and rotating the forearms?!?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

When a young teen trying to start playing I built my swing by copying Hogan's out of the book - stance, grip - the lot. 

After I got it going for 30yrs I hit a low draw - often turning into a hook.  What a surprise there.  But the swing that I learned and grooved was flawed.  I wasn't doing everything that Hogan taught in his book.  When I went back to the book and thought about 'opening' the clubface on the backswing and then 'closing' it on the way back I could sort it.  To be honest I don't actually know what my 'thinking' was actually doing in respect of hands, arms and rotation.   But it worked.

But as that wasn't the only problem with the swing I grooved I don't do this no more as I have had to rebuild my flawed swing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			It makes sense to me too, Bob, but this is what Hogan did & what Jim Hardy, one of the world's best coaches, advocates. His description is to allow the left forearm to rotate clockwise. I find it impossible to complete the backswing without doing this (as you've seen!), it's a quite natural move - not that that makes it correct. It seems that Hogan did this to the extreme. Is it so hard to repeat if you start the squaring early in the downswing? I don't know but I'm going to try it since it's winter & there's nothing riding on what I score.
		
Click to expand...

If you look at the pictures in Hogan's 5 lessons he doesn't just roll his wrists he turns them down so the knuckles on his left hand point downwards through impact and he has a foreward bow in his left wrist, this delofts the clubface and squares it.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 6, 2019)

Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 6, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



View attachment 28511


Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying to get to that position you have to roll your forearms ?


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 6, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying to get to that position you have to roll your forearms ?
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought so. I just think that it's curious that one of the straightest hitters of all time used a method reputed to lead to inaccuracy. 

The more I learn about the game the less I understand.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 6, 2019)

Tried it out on the course today. Only works on the range!


----------



## Depreston (Nov 6, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Tried it out on the course today. Only works on the range!
		
Click to expand...

What happened? Hooks?


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 6, 2019)

Depreston said:



			What happened? Hooks?
		
Click to expand...

As predicted, inconsistency, pushes, hooks, fats


----------



## mteam (Nov 6, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			As predicted, inconsistency, pushes, hooks, fats
		
Click to expand...

These would all be classed as shallow misses in Jim's teachings


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 7, 2019)

mteam said:



			These would all be classed as shallow misses in Jim's teachings
		
Click to expand...

You're dead right. My habit of losing spine angle on both backswing & downswing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



View attachment 28511


Couldn't get the toe almost pointing to the ground without rotating the forearm / rolling the wrists.
		
Click to expand...

Why pointing to the ground.  If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why pointing to the ground.  If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.
		
Click to expand...

So it's almost pointing to the ground


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why pointing to the ground.  If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.
		
Click to expand...

Compare with someone like Dustin Johnson, where the club face just about faces the sky at the top.


----------



## garyinderry (Nov 7, 2019)

That's more to do with the wrist position. 

Ben has a slight cup and Dustin's is severely bowed.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 7, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			That's more to do with the wrist position.

Ben has a slight cup and Dustin's is severely bowed.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, Dustin couldn't possibly get into that position if he rotated his left forearm during the backswing, nor Ben if he didn't.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

bobmac said:



			So it's almost pointing to the ground
		
Click to expand...

No, its not, it would be open with a cupped left wrist if it was.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why pointing to the ground.  If you look at Ben's clubface its on plane with his left arm.
		
Click to expand...

MIB said it was ALMOST pointing to the ground.



SocketRocket said:



			No, its not, it would be open with a cupped left wrist if it was.
		
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of that thank you.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Nov 18, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I disagree, Dustin couldn't possibly get into that position if he rotated his left forearm during the backswing, nor Ben if he didn't.
		
Click to expand...

How can you disagree that Dustin Johnson has a bowed wrist. It's there for everyone to see. Watch any analysis of his swing.However, in my view, to get that bowed wrist the left forearm rotates anti-clockwise, does it not?
If I have read this correctly, Hogan is saying on backswing, rotate clockwise( and open the face) and on downswing roll the wrists to close it back square ?
As for bowing the wrist on backswing, 
I find it very hard to do that, not having strong wrists and forearms , so I tend to cup the wrist, thus opening the face of the club. 
On the downswing that has to change. Making a conscious effort to roll the wrist helps.
I know it isn't the best way to swing ( bowed wrist is in fashion), but bowed wrist is out for me.!


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 18, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How can you disagree that Dustin Johnson has a bowed wrist. It's there for everyone to see. Watch any analysis of his swing.However, in my view, to get that bowed wrist the left forearm rotates anti-clockwise, does it not?
If I have read this correctly, Hogan is saying on backswing, rotate clockwise( and open the face) and on downswing roll the wrists to close it back square ?
As for bowing the wrist on backswing,
I find it very hard to do that, not having strong wrists and forearms , so I tend to cup the wrist, thus opening the face of the club.
On the downswing that thas to change. Making a conscious effort to roll the wrist helps.
I know it isn't the best way to swing ( bowed wrist is in fashion), but bowed wrist is out for me.!
		
Click to expand...

I should have said "rotated his forearm *clockwise" *He couldn't have a bowed wrist if he did that.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Nov 18, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I should have said "rotated his forearm *clockwise" *He couldn't have a bowed wrist if he did that.
		
Click to expand...

No big problemðŸ˜

If I read your first post correctly, you are a wrist roller to some extent like me because you cup your wrist on backswing?  And that is what Hogan was advocating.?
If so, I find it encouraging ( because I can't do a full backswing without cupping, and I go wrong in sequencing if I don't do a full backswingðŸ˜€)
I recently saw a tv program teaching golf which described swinging without a bowed wrist as a "fatal flaw"
So there's no hope for meðŸ˜€


----------



## bobmac (Nov 18, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I recently saw a tv program teaching golf which described swinging without a bowed wrist as a "fatal flaw"
So there's no hope for meðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

It takes all sorts I suppose..........


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Nov 18, 2019)

bobmac said:



			It takes all sorts I suppose..........

Click to expand...

Me or the teacher?ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


----------



## bobmac (Nov 18, 2019)

The teacher.
Some say he plays so well because he has a bowed wrist.
Others say he plays well despite having a bowed wrist.
I favour the latter.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 19, 2019)

bobmac said:



			The teacher.
Some say he plays so well because he has a bowed wrist.
Others say he plays well despite having a bowed wrist.
I favour the latter.
		
Click to expand...

With a bowed wrist you'd expect him to draw the ball, yet he does the opposite. He must rotate clockwise on the downswing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

For me the wrists shouldnt break down and flip at the ball, it creates inconsistency and reduces the leverage a straight(ish) left arm, flat/slightly bowed wrist creates.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			For me the wrists shouldnt break down and flip at the ball, it creates inconsistency and reduces the leverage a straight(ish) left arm, flat/slightly bowed wrist creates.
		
Click to expand...

Flipping at the ball suggests, to me, hitting with the hands without the upper body rotating. The wrists have to get from a fully cocked position to the position they are in at impact. The rapid uncocking is what produces clubhead speed but they must flex at right angles to the swing plane, not roll one over the other. Jim Hardy explains this in his book "The Release"


----------



## Roops (Nov 22, 2019)

Good analysis of DJ's club delivery


----------



## Jensen (Nov 22, 2019)

I watched a great YouTube video by Eric Cogorno, that helped me. 
He demonstrates what happens in the backswing when you stand up out of posture. The club moves further away from your body creating excessive wrist/forearm roll. The wrists roll clockwise fanning the clubface open - disaster


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Flipping at the ball suggests, to me, hitting with the hands without the upper body rotating. The wrists have to get from a fully cocked position to the position they are in at impact. The rapid uncocking is what produces clubhead speed but they must flex at right angles to the swing plane, not roll one over the other. Jim Hardy explains this in his book "The Release"
		
Click to expand...

For me there is a great deal of misconception over wrist cock and how this powers the swing The wrists can only set and release in an up and down manner, this movement does create an amount of club speed but the main force on the ball is created by the arms falling and the body rotating.  Trying to use 'Lag '  is something people think they should be doing but have a complete misunderstanding of how the golf swing works, it can cause all manner of bad golf shots.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			For me there is a great deal of misconception over wrist cock and how this powers the swing The wrists can only set and release in an up and down manner, this movement does create an amount of club speed but the main force on the ball is created by the arms falling and the body rotating.  Trying to use 'Lag '  is something people think they should be doing but have a complete misunderstanding of how the golf swing works, it can cause all manner of bad golf shots.
		
Click to expand...

I think that "lag" is a term used to stop people uncocking the wrists too early & flicking at the ball. Looking at the pros, Garcia is an extreme example, the wrists cock more just as the downswing is starting. The action of the upper body turning the arms forces the wrists to uncock, it's almost impossible for it not to happen. Bobby Clampett in "The Impact Zone" says to hold the wrist set until the last moment. Jim Hardy in "The Release" says to start hitting with the right hand (in the correct plane) from the very top but, then again, they were describing two different types of swing.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 30, 2019)




----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

bobmac said:



View attachment 28652

Click to expand...

And I bet some of that lag was created on the downswing.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			For me there is a great deal of misconception over wrist cock and how this powers the swing The wrists can only set and release in an up and down manner, this movement does create an amount of club speed but the main force on the ball is created by the arms falling and the body rotating.  Trying to use 'Lag '  is something people think they should be doing but have a complete misunderstanding of how the golf swing works, it can cause all manner of bad golf shots.
		
Click to expand...

This reminds me of a discussion we has several years ago! Never truly resolved/agreed and I doubt it will be here!

FWIW...Firstly, wrists can move in 2 axes - the up and down (your set/release that is abduction/adduction or radial/ulnar deviation) one that you state *plus* Flexion/extension (bow/cup). The degree of bow/cup is 'personal'. In that pic of Hogan in MiB's post 10, he certainly has a cupped (extended) right wrist! As has been posted, DJ bows his left wrist (so extended) significantly.

I no longer have a copy of 'Five Lessons' but, from memory, Hogan wrote about left wrist supination (in the follow through). This (back of left hand facing down for a rightee) is a movement of the forearm, not the wrist! The key to 'proper' left wrist supination is actually dependent on 'correct' action of the left and right forearms in the follow through. Check this oft used vid of Luke Donald's swing between 13 and 14 secs to see the action.  




And I'd also dispute that 'lag' doesn't have a significant effect on clubhead speed. Try swinging with locked elbows (zero lag) to see the difference. 

Again, the key is finding the correct balance! Hogan, rather fanatically, spent thousands of hours getting 'his' swing 'perfect' (for him). We (working) amateurs can't afford that sort of time, so have to compromise! Btw. Moe Norman (the only other golfer who Tiger believes 'owned his swing') also spent thousands of hours getting his swing 'perfect for him' but they don't lokk anywhere near similar!


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW...Firstly, wrists can move in 2 axes
		
Click to expand...

3 actually


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			3 actually
		
Click to expand...

Er...Which is the 3rd?


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Which is the 3rd?
		
Click to expand...

Pronate / supinate


----------



## Wolf (Nov 30, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Pronate / supinate
		
Click to expand...

Not scientifically true I'm afraid the process of pronation for the hand/wrist is actually the job of the Pronator teres muscle  which is a smaller muscle on the inner upper forearm and supination is done by the supinator muscle which is formed effectively of 2 fibres that sit in the supinator crest of the ulna.

So the wrist cannot Pronate or supinate indepently as your suggesting for a 3rd axis. That action is solely performed by the smaller muscles that make up the ulna, radial axis. The wrist movement is a by product because they're at the end of the arm. So the wrist does only have 2 axis being anteroposterior (ulna, radial axis) & transverse axis (flexion and extension)


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Pronate / supinate
		
Click to expand...

Not movements of the wrist!

They are movements of the forearm!

Edit: Beaten by Wolf.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Not scientifically true I'm afraid the process of pronation for the hand/wrist is actually the job of the Pronator teres muscle  which is a smaller muscle on the inner upper forearm and supination is done by the supinator muscle which is formed effectively of 2 fibres that sit in the supinator crest of the ulna.

So the wrist cannot Pronate or supinate indepently as your suggesting for a 3rd axis. That action is solely performed by the smaller muscles that make up the ulna, radial axis. The wrist movement is a by product because they're at the end of the arm. So the wrist does only have 2 axis being anteroposterior (ulna, radial axis) & transverse axis (flexion and extension)
		
Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			Not movements of the wrist!

They are movements of the forearm!

Edit: Beaten by Wolf.
		
Click to expand...

That's me corrected then!


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			That's me corrected then!
		
Click to expand...

And, from memory - so quite possibly not correct - Mr Hogan too! Again, from memory, that was 'the one error/misconception' identified/pointed out in '5 Lessons'.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Nov 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And, from memory - so quite possibly not correct - Mr Hogan too! Again, from memory, that was 'the one error/misconception' identified/pointed out in '5 Lessons'.
		
Click to expand...

Jim Hardy says the wrists move 3 different ways. Think he means you can release the club three different ways.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Jim Hardy says the wrists move 3 different ways....
		
Click to expand...

That's slightly, but significantly, different from 'there are 3 different axes or wrist movement'!


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2019)

When you look at images of people like Garcia that look like he is creating a big angle with his wrists in the transition is an illusion.  What he is actually doing is flattening out the shaft in the downswingwhich looks like a big wrist hinge from a front view.
I reiterate, the arms and wrists should only move in an up and down motion,.  To prove this address a ball lift the club up and over your right shoulder, now turn your back to the target and push your arms out.  You will be in a perfect backswing position with no manipulation of the wrists. The opposite of this in the downswing coupled with body rotation is how we strike the ball.
Think of hitting a nail with a hammer, would there be any rotation of the wrists.
Also, imagine a ball sat on a tee at waist height so you are stood upright.  If you turn to strike the ball off this high tee there will be no rotation of the wrists. Striking the ball off the ground is this same action bent forward.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Think of hitting a nail with a hammer, would there be any rotation of the wrists.
...
		
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculously bad/non-relevant analogy! That action would only be used if you were trying to bash the ball (or perhaps the tee) into the ground!

I'm not convinced about the 'ball on a waist height' one either, (baseball/double-handed tennis swing). There IS rotation of the wrists (supination) in a (Hogan style) golf swing imo, but it's more an _effect_ of the swing post strike, not part of the downswing.

Btw. There comes a point in most analogies where the analogy 'fails'. The baseball/tennis one (body not leaning) for golf swing (body leaning) fails in the post-strike area. This is because in the analogy, there is freedom to continue the same movement as per pre-strike. In Golf, the post-strike area is restricted BECAUSE of the leaning-forward, so supination is how that restriction is overcome!


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



* there will be no rotation of the wrists*. .
		
Click to expand...

Can't agree with this for everybody. Jim Hardy, "The Plane Truth", page 35, says "As you turn past the midway point in the backswing, your left forearm should begin to turn in a clockwise motion so that the back of the forearm faces the sky". Jim Hardy is one of the world's best teachers, I'd rather take his word for it. Also, this is how my swing feels. 

The above is Jim describing the "One Plane" swing, where the arms & shoulders at the top are on the same plane, a" flat" swing, you could call it, like Kuchar. For the two plane swing he says (page 47) "you will not need to pronate your left forearm as you do in the one plane backswing" 

So I would guess that you are a two plane swinger. The two distinct types of swing is the reason why you find instructors writing in mags like Golf Monthly giving what looks like conflicting advice.


----------



## SGC001 (Dec 2, 2019)

The wrist has 3 degrees of freedom flexion extension, radioulnar deviation and rotation.
Edit not sure if it matters what muscles cause what motion


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

Depreston said:



			Is there a difference between rolling the wrists and rotating the forearms?!?
		
Click to expand...

Am sat here like an idiot on the settee rolling me wrist and rotating forearms and thinking that is actually a fair point. So is there a differance.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Am sat here like an idiot on the settee rolling me wrist and rotating forearms and thinking that is actually a fair point. So is there a differance.
		
Click to expand...

Only if it means you cant return the clubface back square to the ball consistently


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Only if it means you cant return the clubface back square to the ball consistently
		
Click to expand...

Reason I ask, I had a lesson because my swing path was out to in and I was hitting across the ball with an open face. I had a lesson where I was shown how to take the club away square and hit it square on the return. Hey presto I have never hit the ball as straight. Chuffed to bits I am. Anyway, for some reason I tried slightly rolling the wrists not turning the forearms. It created a lovely draw, but ended up with me going down the RHS of the fairway. However when really going after the ball it created a hook. Which I have never done. So am thinking is it differant rolling the wrists to rotating the forearm.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			...So am thinking is it differant rolling the wrists to rotating the forearm.
		
Click to expand...

No it's not!

As stated earlier - and backed up by anatomnical evidence - 'rolling the wrists' is actually 'rotating the forearms'! Rolling the wrists is anatimically impossible, but is an observation of what happens when the forearms are rotated.


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No it's not!

As stated earlier - and backed up by anatomnical evidence - 'rolling the wrists' is actually 'rotating the forearms'! Rolling the wrists is anatimically impossible, but is an observation of what happens when the forearms are rotated.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers foxy me man. 👍


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Can't agree with this for everybody. Jim Hardy, "The Plane Truth", page 35, says "As you turn past the midway point in the backswing, your left forearm should begin to turn in a clockwise motion so that the back of the forearm faces the sky". Jim Hardy is one of the world's best teachers, I'd rather take his word for it. Also, this is how my swing feels.

The above is Jim describing the "One Plane" swing, where the arms & shoulders at the top are on the same plane, a" flat" swing, you could call it, like Kuchar. For the two plane swing he says (page 47) "you will not need to pronate your left forearm as you do in the one plane backswing"

So I would guess that you are a two plane swinger. The two distinct types of swing is the reason why you find instructors writing in mags like Golf Monthly giving what looks like conflicting advice.
		
Click to expand...

Of course you are free to believe what you wish.  Can you explain to me what the problem is to which rolling the wrists is the solution?


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			This is a ridiculously bad/non-relevant analogy! That action would only be used if you were trying to bash the ball (or perhaps the tee) into the ground!

I'm not convinced about the 'ball on a waist height' one either, (baseball/double-handed tennis swing). There IS rotation of the wrists (supination) in a (Hogan style) golf swing imo, but it's more an _effect_ of the swing post strike, not part of the downswing.

Btw. There comes a point in most analogies where the analogy 'fails'. The baseball/tennis one (body not leaning) for golf swing (body leaning) fails in the post-strike area. This is because in the analogy, there is freedom to continue the same movement as per pre-strike. In Golf, the post-strike area is restricted BECAUSE of the leaning-forward, so supination is how that restriction is overcome!
		
Click to expand...

If  that's your opinion then thats your perogotive, I disagree but find little point in suggesting your opinion is ridiculous.

When hitting most clubs the task with the club should be bashing the ground, as you put it.  The ball should be struck as the club continues its path into the ground, the angle the club descends into the ground should alter slightly as the club gets longer though.  The only exception to this would be the Driver and Putter.
There will be a small rotation of the forearms as the club travels to the top of the backswing but this is only to make the arms more relaxed. There should be no deliberate rolling.
I repeat, the wrists only set in an up and down method, any  other movement creates a moving target that will encourage erratic and inconsistent ball striking unless the person has exceptional timing.
Think about it.  If you designed a machine to strike a ball consistently would you allow the point where the shaft was gripped to rotate through impact?  Look at the testing machine 'Iron Byron' that doesn't rotate the shaft and hits the ball out the middle every time.
This guy in the video is very mich in line with my thinking:


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course you are free to believe what you wish.  Can you explain to me what the problem is to which rolling the wrists is the solution?
		
Click to expand...

It's not a problem at all. It's the fact that, if the club is swung on a flat plane with it going well behind the player, the left forearm *must* rotate clockwise, its physically impossible to make a proper swing without doing it. If, on the other hand, the swing is made very steeply with the hands kept much more in front of you it's not necessary to rotate. Try it, it's quite obvious how it works.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course you are free to believe what you wish.  Can you explain to me what the problem is to which rolling the wrists is the solution?
		
Click to expand...

What a strange thing to say. It's not only what I believe, it's how Hogan said he swung the club & what one of the world's best coaches says you should do!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 4, 2019)

You can however swing back on a flat plane without fanning the clubface open


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 4, 2019)

bobmac said:



			You can however swing back on a flat plane without fanning the clubface open
		
Click to expand...

Without rotating the left forearm? I've just tried to do this & the result is that the club goes back on a very steep plane, what Jim Hardy would call a "Two Plane" swing. What SocketRocket described is, I think, his own steep swing. The wrist setting & non rotation are typical Two Plane moves. I find it physically impossible to get to the right position at the top without left forearm rotation. Seems like Hogan had the same problem but it didn't seem to do him any harm!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 4, 2019)

Can you take a short backswing where your left arm is pointing to 9 o'clock and keep your thumbs pointing upwards?


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...Look at the testing machine 'Iron Byron' that *doesn't rotate the shaft* and hits the ball out the middle every time.
		
Click to expand...

Er...Check this video (of True Temper's Iron Byron) out - from 3 mins - and you will hear/see the 3 simulated movements involved - one of which is the 'rotation of the arms' (Rolling of wrists). 




Btw. I believe our comments were 'at cross purposes' in several places. The main difference seems to be your instsitence that NO 'wrist roll' should take place during the (entire?) swing. I believe 'wrist roll' is an quite fine as part of the follow-through - as shown in the oft-quoted Luke Donald swing I posted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Without rotating the left forearm? I've just tried to do this & the result is that the club goes back on a very steep plane, what Jim Hardy would call a "Two Plane" swing. What SocketRocket described is, I think, his own steep swing. The wrist setting & non rotation are typical Two Plane moves. I find it physically impossible to get to the right position at the top without left forearm rotation. Seems like Hogan had the same problem but it didn't seem to do him any harm!
		
Click to expand...

I dont have a a steep swingplane. Why should I.  I explained that a small forearm rotation is ok as long as its removed early in the downswing.  Did you see the video I posted.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Check this video (of True Temper's Iron Byron) out - from 3 mins - and you will hear/see the 3 simulated movements involved - one of which is the 'rotation of the arms' (Rolling of wrists). 




Btw. I believe our comments were 'at cross purposes' in several places. The main difference seems to be your instsitence that NO 'wrist roll' should take place during the (entire?) swing. I believe 'wrist roll' is an quite fine as part of the follow-through - as shown in the oft-quoted Luke Donald swing I posted.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that, what im saying wrist rolling through impact creates inconsistency unless you are extremely well coordinated.


----------



## Depreston (Dec 5, 2019)

Found Mark Crossfield vid on wrists last night very interesting the part around forearm rotation


----------



## Diamond (May 24, 2021)

Just resurrecting this thread as I was told last year to to rotate my arms during my swing. At the time I believe it generated more power and length but it was something I stopped doing mainly down to the amount of swing thoughts and consistency.
The advice at the time would have been based on my out to in steep swing and lack of hip rotation.
I can slip into swaying, head movement and a steep  swing.  At the moment my steep swing is killing me on the softer fairways. I am going to start to rotate my arms again at the range this week.


----------



## bobmac (May 24, 2021)

Diamond said:



			I am going to start to rotate my arms again at the range this week.
		
Click to expand...

It's up to you but I'd strongly advise against it.
I'd focus all your efforts on improving your swing path


----------



## Diamond (May 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's up to you but I'd strongly advise against it.
I'd focus all your efforts on improving your swing path
		
Click to expand...

I think the arm rotation helps my swing path be less steep.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (May 24, 2021)

Diamond said:



			I think the arm rotation helps my swing path be less steep.
		
Click to expand...

This is what Jim Hardy says: "As you turn past the midway point in the backswing, your left forearm should begin to turn in a clockwise motion so that the back of the forearm faces the sky". ("The Plane Truth for Golfers" P. 35) This only applies, however, in a "One Plane" swing, i.e. a swing where the arms & shoulders are on the same plane at the top (think Matt Kuchar / Hunter Mahan") as opposed to Bubba / Phil. Hardy says that in a Two Plane, i.e. steep, swing there's no need to rotate the left forearm. So you really need to decide what kind of swing you have.

You seem to have elements of both types of swing. May be a good idea to read the book. It has helped me a lot.


----------



## Diamond (May 24, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This is what Jim Hardy says: "As you turn past the midway point in the backswing, your left forearm should begin to turn in a clockwise motion so that the back of the forearm faces the sky". ("The Plane Truth for Golfers" P. 35) This only applies, however, in a "One Plane" swing, i.e. a swing where the arms & shoulders are on the same plane at the top (think Matt Kuchar / Hunter Mahan") as opposed to Bubba / Phil. Hardy says that in a Two Plane, i.e. steep, swing there's no need to rotate the left forearm. So you really need to decide what kind of swing you have.

You seem to have elements of both types of swing. May be a good idea to read the book. It has helped me a lot.
		
Click to expand...

Will do


----------



## bobmac (May 25, 2021)

Can I just check one thing please?
Are you talking about rolling your forearms on the backswing or downswing?


----------



## Diamond (May 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can I just check one thing please?
Are you talking about rolling your forearms on the backswing or downswing?
		
Click to expand...

Hi Bobmac. I was told to roll them on the backswing to help shallow out my swing which is far too steep and out to in.


----------



## bobmac (May 25, 2021)

Diamond said:



			Hi Bobmac. I was told to roll them on the backswing to help shallow out my swing which is far too steep and out to in.
		
Click to expand...

Watch from 2:36 and note what he says at 3:16






So while the forearm roll flattens the shaft on the backswing, it steepens it on the downswing making your problem worse.
As I suggested before, improve your swing path as that will also flatten the angle of attack.


----------



## Depreston (May 25, 2021)

It’s a concept I always flirt with 

Rolling the forearms in the downswing the ‘feeling’ deffo changes my ball flight dramatically 

Eric cogorno is an advocate of this if you’re a fader slicer of the ball


----------



## Diamond (May 25, 2021)

Interesting video. I think my better shots are when I stop at the L (or at least I think I do) and also have forearm rotation at the end of backswing and start of downswing.


----------



## aaajjj7589 (May 26, 2021)

I had a lesson a few weeks back. Advice was to rotate my wrists so that my right palm is facing the sky where I 'would be able to hold up a tray of drinks' in theory. Been doing it ever since the lesson and I have 100% gotten worse and my confidence has gone in my shots. In fact I find I top the ball now - something I never did in recent months. 

One of the big problems I have is squaring my club face. It's a problem so I'm probably exaggerating my issue with rotating the wrists. My ball goes off to the right frequently but it's not a slice - the ball goes straight but on the wrong line.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2021)

aaajjj7589 said:



			I had a lesson a few weeks back. Advice was to rotate my wrists so that my right palm is facing the sky where I 'would be able to hold up a tray of drinks' in theory. Been doing it ever since the lesson and I have 100% gotten worse and my confidence has gone in my shots. In fact I find I top the ball now - something I never did in recent months.

One of the big problems I have is squaring my club face. It's a problem so I'm probably exaggerating my issue with rotating the wrists. My ball goes off to the right frequently but it's not a slice - the ball goes straight but on the wrong line.
		
Click to expand...

You're probably pulling the handle through impact which will make you hit out right all day.  It's normally a symptom of golfers being fixated with getting a forward leaning shaft so they drag the club through impact which holds the face open.

Release the lag much earlier so the shaft has room to square up, a little forward shaft lean is good but don't overdo it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

aaajjj7589 said:



			I had a lesson a few weeks back. Advice was to rotate my wrists so that my right palm is facing the sky where I 'would be able to hold up a tray of drinks' in theory. Been doing it ever since the lesson and I have 100% gotten worse and my confidence has gone in my shots. In fact I find I top the ball now - something I never did in recent months.

One of the big problems I have is squaring my club face. It's a problem so I'm probably exaggerating my issue with rotating the wrists. My ball goes off to the right frequently but it's not a slice - the ball goes straight but on the wrong line.
		
Click to expand...

The ‘waiter holding the tray‘ advice was what one of my mates was given.  He was hitting a high slice off the tee - no longer, he is hitting it straight - sometimes right to left or straight left...but the high slice has generally been eliminated.  He is very much happier these days when standing on the tee.


----------

