# England vs Italy



## HawkeyeMS (Jun 24, 2012)

So what's it gonna be folks? Another quarter final defeat following an abject display or something out of the blue and altogether more inspiring.

Having seen England so far looking much like Fulham under Hodgson I'm expecting the former but every now and then, Fulham would break ranks and put on a bit of a show when it was least expected - maybe England will do the same?


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## Neddy (Jun 24, 2012)

Think our inability to keep the ball will be punished tonight and Italy will sneak it but England can be relatively pleased with a QF appearance this time around.


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## Imurg (Jun 24, 2012)

2-2 with, typically, England losing the shoot-out...


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## andycap (Jun 24, 2012)

So whats it gonna be ?
  18 holes on a dead quiet course , then back to work tomorrow, 
Hope they win then i can get more golf in with the course to myself !


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## One Planer (Jun 24, 2012)

England win by the odd goal in 3


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## Rooter (Jun 24, 2012)

I walked past a bookies earlier offering 35-1 on an England win by 3-1... I was actually tempted! I. Reckon we will win it with a bit of luck. Gonna predict a balotelli "blow up", well let's be honest, it's either him or Rooney! England to win in 90 minutes, 2-1.


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## Tiger (Jun 24, 2012)

Tight affair won by a single goal scored by either Balotelli or Rooney. Whatever the result I think the team have done well


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 24, 2012)

Close game tonight, probably Italy to win but could see England sneaking it.

Winner to get humped by Germany in the semi.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2012)

Difficult to see past the Germans but I also hope England will win tonight. Italy are not the force they used to be.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2012)

A typically tenses affair with perhaps a win either way 1-0 or by the odd goal in three. I'd rather go out 2 or 3 nil playing with purpose though rather than lose it in extra time or penalties. Heart says England - head says not


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## swanny32 (Jun 24, 2012)

I think we'll see the first game of the Euro's go to extra time tonight and possibly penalties. We have a very similar setup to Italy and our style of football is almost a carbon copy. For me, the way to beat them is to pack out the midfield, control the middle of the park and keep the ball moving. It's going to be a difficult game and probably incredibly boring as well but I have a good feeling about the outcome, be it after 90 minutes, extra time or penalties.

Unfortunately, we'll get spanked by Ze Germans if we get to the Semi's.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 24, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Tight affair won by a single goal scored by either Balotelli or Rooney. Whatever the result I think the team have done well 

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Hey Tiger, looks like we agree for once! 

It will be great if they win but I think it's fair to say England managed by Roy Hodgson have done well to get as far as they have.

Have to admit I was wrong about Hodgson and think he has been spot on so far.

:thup:

:cheers:


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## Garesfield ACE (Jun 24, 2012)

to go to extra time.....then owt can happen


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2012)

Excellent match so far.


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## CMAC (Jun 24, 2012)

forgot it was on, turned over to see Rooney trying the overhead in extra time- that would have been fairytale stuff.
looking forward to a good extra time


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## CliveW (Jun 24, 2012)

I can't believe how biassed the commentary on the BBC is!


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## Qwerty (Jun 24, 2012)

Im getting sick of listening to Lawrenson and the other crap commentator drooling over the Italians and slating England.
Ok England havn't played well but I just dont want to hear It!


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2012)

Rooney misses????

Not a hope.


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## munro007 (Jun 24, 2012)

OMG Italy won.........


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## moogie (Jun 24, 2012)

2 Ashleys ........... CRAP Pens :angry:


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## palindromicbob (Jun 24, 2012)

Just when people thought they had a chance. Still did better the N. Ireland


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## Val (Jun 24, 2012)

Magnifico


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2012)

So much for all that practice. On the positives, we weren't expected toget out of the group and Hodgson can now get on and build his own team to get us to the WC finals


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## Qwerty (Jun 24, 2012)

"Footballing justice has been done" said the commentator.

Do you think in any other country you would hear this by the national TV station about the national football team!:angry:

Typical BBC!:angry:


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## Iaing (Jun 24, 2012)

Qwerty said:



			"Footballing justice has been done" said the commentator.

Do you think in any other country you would hear this by the national TV station about the national football team!:angry:

Typical BBC!:angry:
		
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Justice was done. Italy were by far the better team, if lacking a bit in the striking department.


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

CliveW said:



			I can't believe how biassed the commentary on the BBC is!
		
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Against England? I know! Pretty terrible.


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## Imurg (Jun 24, 2012)

But he's right...

We should have lost about 9-2 FFS.....!

We tried but we simply were not good enough.
Did well to get as far as they got - History will show that we lost on Penalties in the 1/4 Finals - not bad for a poor side.

On another note, it's about time they outlawed the stutter in the run-up to take a penalty. I know there is something in place but it's not fair. Just run up and hit it. If you stutter your run then it should be classed as a miss.........


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## Val (Jun 24, 2012)

Qwerty said:



			"Footballing justice has been done" said the commentator.

Do you think in any other country you would hear this by the national TV station about the national football team!:angry:

Typical BBC!:angry:
		
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Don't let facts get in the way, this is not the national team of the UK where the BBC transmit and god help anyone telling the truth

These type of comments make me glad tha England got beat regardless of who they played.


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Don't let facts get in the way, this is not the national team of the UK where the BBC transmit and god help anyone telling the truth

These type of comments make me glad tha England got beat regardless of who they played.
		
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I think it's pretty embarrassing. They're calling it at they see it, which is what they should do as commentators. If they're pro-England, then that's fine. I can guarantee you that the Italian commentary will have been A LOT more biased towards Italy than the BBC's.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 24, 2012)

Well you have to say, England didn't deserve to win.

When I saw Ashley Young step up to take a penalty I thought of all the players, noooo!
He gave the ball away all night and quite honestly had a very poor tournament.

Couldn't understand England's tactics in the 2nd half - every kick from Hart went up the middle and straight back to Italy, and I mean every single time.
2nd division tactics for International football. Really surprised Hodgson allowed this.


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## smange (Jun 24, 2012)

Imurg said:



			But he's right...

We should have lost about 9-2 FFS.....!

We tried but we simply were not good enough.
Did well to get as far as they got - History will show that we lost on Penalties in the 1/4 Finals - not bad for a poor side.

On another note, it's about time they outlawed the stutter in the run-up to take a penalty. I know there is something in place but it's not fair. Just run up and hit it. If you stutter your run then it should be classed as a miss.........
		
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Jeez Imurg your being kind there mate:mmm:

Theres no way England could have scored 2


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## Qwerty (Jun 24, 2012)

Iaing said:



			Justice was done. Italy were by far the better team, if lacking a bit in the striking department.
		
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I agree Italy were by far the better team, but at times Lawrenson and the other knob were pretty much mocking England and Kissing Italy's backsides.

If I was watching the game anywhere other than England with non English commentary I'd say "fair enough" 
But I wasn't .


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## Iaing (Jun 24, 2012)

Imurg said:



			But he's right...

We should have lost about 9-2 FFS.....!

We tried but we simply were not good enough.
Did well to get as far as they got - History will show that we lost on Penalties in the 1/4 Finals - not bad for a poor side.

On another note, it's about time they outlawed the stutter in the run-up to take a penalty. I know there is something in place but it's not fair. Just run up and hit it. If you stutter your run then it should be classed as a miss.........
		
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Oh, come off it. Pirio's penalty was the highlight of the game!


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## Imurg (Jun 24, 2012)

Iaing said:



			Oh, come off it. Pirio's penalty was the highlight of the game!
		
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Errr...
He didn't stutter his run........

Or was I watching a different game?


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

Qwerty said:



			I agree Italy were by far the better team, but at times Lawrenson and the other knob were pretty much mocking England and Kissing Italy's backsides.

If I was watching the game anywhere other than England with non English commentary I'd say "fair enough" 
But I wasn't .
		
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What were they supposed to do? Lie and say England were getting unlucky breaks? They were that bad in the second half and were playing for penalties if they didn't get lucky on a counter.


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## Val (Jun 24, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			I think it's pretty embarrassing. They're calling it at they see it, which is what they should do as commentators. If they're pro-England, then that's fine. I can guarantee you that the Italian commentary will have been A LOT more biased towards Italy than the BBC's.
		
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No doubt but in Italy the game will have been watched by mainly Italians, in the UK they have to be more impartial as its transmitted in all the home nations


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

It's depressing that we were beaten by a guy who's about 130 years old, but Pirlo is a joy to watch.


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## smange (Jun 24, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			I think it's pretty embarrassing. They're calling it at they see it, which is what they should do as commentators. If they're pro-England, then that's fine. I can guarantee you that the Italian commentary will have been A LOT more biased towards Italy than the BBC's.
		
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I dont have a problem with them being biased.

Bloody hell its natural for an English commentator to want England to win and to be honest I think in this tournament they have been pretty honest and realistic about the England team and their performances. Which has been refreshingly honest of them as opposed to previous tournament when they have lived in denial about the team and their performances.


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

Valentino said:



			No doubt but in Italy the game will have been watched by mainly Italians, in the UK they have to be more impartial as its transmitted in all the home nations
		
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I agree, and they are more impartial. I'm agreeing with you


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 24, 2012)

smange said:



			I dont have a problem with them being biased.

Bloody hell its natural for an English commentator to want England to win and to be honest I think in this tournament they have been pretty honest and realistic about the England team and their performances. Which has been refreshingly honest of them as opposed to previous tournament when they have lived in denial about the team and their performances.
		
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Yea, my post wasn't very clear, I agree with everything you just said!


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## Val (Jun 24, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			I agree, and they are more impartial. I'm agreeing with you 

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I knew you were, just highlighting reasons


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## Imurg (Jun 24, 2012)

Valentino said:



			No doubt but in Italy the game will have been watched by mainly Italians, in the UK they have to be more impartial as its transmitted in all the home nations
		
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So if it had been Scotland instead of England and the commentators said the same stuff............?

Mind you I wouldn't have been watching anyway...


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## sawtooth (Jun 24, 2012)

No Complaints. The better team went through, I would have felt a hell of a lot worse had England played the better and went out on pens. As it was, Italy played us off the park and thoroughly deserved it.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 24, 2012)

Golfmmad said:



			Couldn't understand England's tactics - every kick from Hart went up the middle and straight back to Italy, and I mean every single time.
2nd division tactics for International football. Really surprised Hodgson allowed this.
		
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Hodgson has made a living on these tactics for the last 15yrs.his tactics in his 6  games in charge  have been exactly the same only he got lucky with his substitutions against Sweden.

The man's a footballing fraud and I'll guarantee that England will not qualify for 2014 world cup in Brazil with tactics like that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			No Complaints. The better team went through, I would have felt a hell of a lot worse had England played the better and went out on pens. As it was, Italy played us off the park and thoroughly deserved it.
		
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Pretty much sums it up. Attack v defence for the 2nd half and ET and we were poor in the 2nd half. Almost Cappello or Mclaren like with no plan B or idea of how to keep the ball. A shame as in the first half I thought we were a good match for the Italians


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## beggsy (Jun 24, 2012)

John terry = crap, ash cole = crap, ash young = crap need I go on


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## Golfmmad (Jun 24, 2012)

[QUOTE

The man's a footballing fraud and I'll guarantee that England will not qualify for 2014 world cup in Brazil with tactics like that.[/QUOTE]

You could be right - and then the FA will appoint Gary Neville - he who has been taught by the Master, Sir Alex Ferguson. 

PS,
Sorry StuartC, didn't quite get the quote right. not sure what I did wrong.


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## G1BB0 (Jun 24, 2012)

Welbeck not good enough
Rooney unfit/lack of match practice
Young pants
Milner works hard but pants
Terry too old
Parker will run his nuts off but no savvy going forward

a severe lack of ambition tbh, decent defensively but can only defend so much

Ahh well another tourney goes begging cos I havent really seen a team that looks the dogs b's


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## Mungoscorner (Jun 25, 2012)

As a neutral i found the game very entertaining,Italy were clearly the better team,and the gulf in class was obvious,but you have to give England credit for keeping a clean sheet for 120 minutes.
The thing that impressed me most was the sportsmanship before,during and after the game.A lot of respect between both teams,and no nonsense on the pitch.


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## sydney greenstreet (Jun 25, 2012)

They're coming home, they're coming home, they're coming,England's coming home.


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## Whee (Jun 25, 2012)

Valentino said:



			No doubt but in Italy the game will have been watched by mainly Italians, in the UK they have to be more impartial as its transmitted in all the home nations
		
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Sorry Valentino, but I disagree wholeheartedly.

The commentary team don't have to be more impartial at all. If a neutral fan is watching the game via an English broadcaster - then they should accept that the commentators are going to be hoping that their side win. 

Why exactly should they be impartial?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 25, 2012)

My tuppence worth...

1)  Ballatelli was England's best player
2) Rooney shouldn't have been on the pitch
3) Why did all our players look like they were running through custard?
4) We made Italy look a lot better than they are
5) Germany must have loved it - whoever went through they will spank

Hodgson can now get rid of some of the deadwood and get Wilshere, Cahill, Walker et al in the team for the WC


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## Whee (Jun 25, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			My tuppence worth...

1)  Ballatelli was England's best player
2) Rooney shouldn't have been on the pitch
3) Why did all our players look like they were running through custard?
4) We made Italy look a lot better than they are
5) Germany must have loved it - whoever went through they will spank

Hodgson can now get rid of some of the deadwood and get Wilshere, Cahill, Walker et al in the team for the WC
		
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Agree with everything you said Hawkeye. With regards to number 3, I didn't hear how hot it was, but our boys looked like they were struggling big time after just 15 minutes.

I hope the clearout actually does happen this time round, because it certainly didn't after Seth Efrica.


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## StuartD (Jun 25, 2012)

Whee said:



			Sorry Valentino, but I disagree wholeheartedly.

The commentary team don't have to be more impartial at all. If a neutral fan is watching the game via an English broadcaster - then they should accept that the commentators are going to be hoping that their side win. 

Why exactly should they be impartial?
		
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English broadcaster!!!

Since when did the BBC stand for English broadcasting corporation

To be fair though when Scotland play BBC Scotland put their own commentary team in place and they are just as biased. Down south you don't really see it as you usually still get an English commentary team covering the game. Maybe BBC Scotland should pay the money and send their own comentary team to cover England games


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2012)

I thought England were strong, powerful, moved the ball well and troubled the opposition throughout the match. They dominated play and looked dangerous going forward and it was a matter of sheer luck that the opponents held out for a draw. 

Thats enough about the rugby ............ now what about the football?
Oh yes....... we were clueless after the first 15 mins


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Hodgson can now get rid of some of the deadwood and get Wilshere, Cahill, Walker et al in the team for the WC
		
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I think what a lot of people fail to recognise is how football is coached in this country. 11v11 from a young age played at a frenetic tempo, with dads bellowing from the sideline to 'give it some welly' or. 'get it in the mixer'. 

Loads of people slate Rooney. Put him in the Spanish team and watch him come alive. A lot of these players are better at club level because of the international class of their team mates. 

We are technically inferior BUT if you are hard to beat and don't concede you'll always have a chance. And we did create chances. I think this team can improve but Hodgson needed a squad. With Lampard and Barry in the squad Gerrard and Parker could have had more rest. That was their 4th match in 12 days and they hardly had the ball in any of them. Chasing shadows in high temperatures when you are over 30 is not easy...

As for the commentary, Lawrenson needs to be put out of his misery!!!


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## Scottjd1 (Jun 25, 2012)

Cant stand Lawrenson.

Rooney was on Pirli first 15-20 mins and he was largely impotent, then we had good possession and played well. Rooney look dead on his feet after about 30 minutes, don't get it, all this 'match-fit' talk- he wasn't injured, so why wasn't he ultra sharp. Weird???

As a team England are pedestrian and lazy, until they learn that the least important person on the pitch is the one with the ball, and it's the movement and space created by your team mates then we will always look awful. 

Glad we are out, based on a more tiresome performance against Germany, had we won the penalties, would have led to a bit of a semi-final hammering..


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Cant stand Lawrenson.


As a team England are pedestrian and lazy, until they learn that the least important person on the pitch is the one with the ball, and it's the movement and space created by your team mates then we will always look awful. 




			Ah, now that is* IT *in a nutshell!
		
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## Whee (Jun 25, 2012)

StuartD said:



			English broadcaster!!!

Since when did the BBC stand for English broadcasting corporation

To be fair though when Scotland play BBC Scotland put their own commentary team in place and they are just as biased. Down south you don't really see it as you usually still get an English commentary team covering the game. Maybe BBC Scotland should pay the money and send their own comentary team to cover England games
		
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Yeah fair call, didn't engage brain before putting that, but you see the point I was making.

I wasn't watching the BBC coverage, haven't done all tournament, but I can imagine how biased they've been.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			I think what a lot of people fail to recognise is how football is coached in this country. 11v11 from a young age played at a frenetic tempo, with dads bellowing from the sideline to 'give it some welly' or. 'get it in the mixer'. 

Loads of people slate Rooney. Put him in the Spanish team and watch him come alive. A lot of these players are better at club level because of the international class of their team mates. 

We are technically inferior BUT if you are hard to beat and don't concede you'll always have a chance. And we did create chances. I think this team can improve but Hodgson needed a squad. With Lampard and Barry in the squad Gerrard and Parker could have had more rest. That was their 4th match in 12 days and they hardly had the ball in any of them. Chasing shadows in high temperatures when you are over 30 is not easy...
		
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Spot on, you either coach or have played football I guess. We were poor and until we totally try sort out our grass roots system and wipe it clean and start a fresh we will always be 5/6 best team in Europe unfortunately. Possession is key and we didn't string 4 passes together until the Rooney overhead kick. Italy dominated possession while we chased around.


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## One Planer (Jun 25, 2012)

For me it was the same old sob story.

Players picked by the club they play for and the name on their backs rather than their form.

Rooney, Milner and Young, Terry to name a few. 

Milner can't even get into his club side in recent memory, yet he is picked over a bright young lad in Ox pretty much the whole tournament, why?

Young was poor from game 1, yet still manages to find the starting 11! Why is obviuos, he plays for United.

If they wre both still at Villa would they have even been picked?

Rooney wasn't even remotley match fit and was blowing hard after half an hour. Why the manager can't see this is beyond me!

Same old Terry, leggy and slow, but of the 4 mentioned he was probably the best.. At least he made an effort to fulfil his role within the team.

Tactics were shocking, but what do you expect, Woy has made a living out of those tactics, but sadly don't work at international level.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 25, 2012)

I don't agree with getting picked by the club they play for but I do partially agree about picked on name. Rooney should have been replaced as should Gerrard after he picked up his injury, he did nothing for the last 50 mins (apart from the pen), Young was ineffective and we didn't play to Walcott when he came on so that was a waste of a sub.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2012)

Lucky escape for England, if you ask me. After being outplayed by two mediocre, toothless teams - France and Italy - I can only imagine the cricket score the current German team would have run up against them.

Amazed that anyone can think the BBC commentary was biased against England. We always complain about it up here but accept that the commentators support England so it's only natural. Last night, however, was the worst I can remember. Lawrenson should never work for them again - he abandoned all attempt at analysis and became a cheerleader, admittedly a rather depressed cheerleader given the way the game progressed!

The absolute nadir was when one of the Italians started limping and the commentary clowns were going on about how they hoped it was a serious injury - unacceptable IMO - they weren't even joking. Too many other examples of bias to list here.....

I think if BBC Scotland put their own commentary team in more scots would support England. My OH started the match willing England on but switched to Italy after around 80 minutes due entirely to the commentary!


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## Val (Jun 25, 2012)

Whee said:



			Sorry Valentino, but I disagree wholeheartedly.

The commentary team don't have to be more impartial at all. If a neutral fan is watching the game via an English broadcaster - then they should accept that the commentators are going to be hoping that their side win. 

Why exactly should they be impartial?
		
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They were broadcasting to the UK not just England, and my response initially was to a post made complaining that they weren't more biased.


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## Mungoscorner (Jun 25, 2012)

I thought Shearer was pretty unbiased and accurate with his comments,Lineker however was his usual idiotic self.He said England controlled the game for 20 minutes at the start,well he was obviously watching a differrent game to me,because i don't remember them controlling the game for 20 seconds let alone 20 minutes.


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## A1ex (Jun 25, 2012)

The think the defence and Joe Hard did well. At times they were caught ball watching and got cut open by Pirlo's vision but they did defend with everything they had and made some excellent tackles/blocks.

The midfield was dire, excluding Gerrard. Upfront we just looked so average. Rooney looked about 50 out there, he could hardly move.

That said, with such an average side we managed to give ourselves a chance of scraping through on pens. The semi finals would've been an overachievment.

Italy were absolutely average aswell, bar the class of Andrea Pirlo. Who at his age stood out and totally bossed the game.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2012)

A1ex said:



			The think the defence and Joe Hard did well. At times they were caught ball watching and got cut open by Pirlo's vision but they did defend with everything they had and made some excellent tackles/blocks.
		
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I agree with this. I'm no John Terry fan but surprised he's picked up some stick on this thread; I thought he was England's man of the match with a few vital challenges and blocks. Possibly England's man of the tournament actually from the games I saw.


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## Whee (Jun 25, 2012)

After the first few mintues, where Italy almost rattled England, there was a period where we played nice football, worked a couple of openings and almost grabbed an opener ourselves. No, not domination, but we played football.

It was an open and frantic 20 minutes, then the Italians got a hold on the game and slowed the pace right down.

People waxing lyrical about Pirlo this morning - he made two tremendour passes, granted, but the rest of it was easy, not a white shirt within 10 yards of him, I could've stroked passes around like he did for christ sake.

England were shattered, with Rooney and Wellbeck not working hard enough off the ball, meaning the midfield had to do more than their fair share - it also meant we dropped deeper.

Still, that said, if you're game plan involves taking it to penalties, then at least be sure you can take them. Cole and Young should be ashamed of themselves this morning.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2012)

As a Scotsman watching England play, as Mungo says after the crazed build up and ten minutes of the English comentators, you desperately wan't to see whoever they play against win.
Why do you guys put up with such drivel. We shall send you Jim Spence down for the next game so you can understand proper commentry. I put it on mute and enjoyed a close game.

Good defence by England but some of the players did not look fit especially Rooney in his two games.
With about 25% of first team players in the EPL being English I think that this is as good as it gets for England.


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2012)

Poor.  As expected.  

When you take England's best players out of the premier league, you can see them for what they really are.  Technically sub-standard, tactically immature and devoid of football intelligence. 

For example, it is easy for Milner to look like a class act when he is playing in a front line of Tevez, Aguero and Silva.   Any English wide midfielder from the conference upwards would look a decent player in that company.  But substitute them for the best in England and they look like very average players.

The FA are the problem.  Were they to adopt the latest German blueprint for success that Klinsmann implemented with Joachim Low, then we may see some improvement over the next decade but sadly this is highly unlikely.  The FA are just talkers - no action. 

Still, reasons to be cheerful.  The rugby team managed a decent result on Saturday and we have the number 1 and 2 squash players in the world at the moment! 

Time for us to switch focus to tennis now.  Anyone but Murray mode switched on!  Apologies in advance if anyone thinks that this is vile racist bile of course......


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## bladeplayer (Jun 25, 2012)

As anyone that has read any of my football posts should tell you , i try to give an unbiased opinin on it , 
I think this England team lacked a bit of imagination , Wilshire should add that , how Young or the left winger from pool (name escapes me at min) is there before Adam Johnson is a puzzell to me & if the only back up to Gerrard is Henderson then theres a big problem for the future.. This England team did ok in the circumstances , BUT in my opinion he should have unleashed the new guard & let them gain big tournament experience , ok maybe they would have lost in the group stages but they were never going to win the thing anyhow , world cup should be a building step to being contenders for the next euros on 4 years . only way for the young gys to get experience is to play ..

Ok i know we lost to the Italians but IMO we gave them a better game , ok ye got a better result but we tried to play & by crikey we aint good .. we have to do the same , blood Mccarthy , Coleman, Duffy , McClean , .. bad vibes on this Irish Tournment but good players coming through ..


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 25, 2012)

A1ex said:



			The think the defence and Joe Hard did well. At times they were caught ball watching and got cut open by Pirlo's vision but they did defend with everything they had and made some excellent tackles/blocks.

The midfield was dire, excluding Gerrard. Upfront we just looked so average. Rooney looked about 50 out there, he could hardly move.

That said, with such an average side we managed to give ourselves a chance of scraping through on pens. The semi finals would've been an overachievment.

Italy were absolutely average aswell, bar the class of Andrea Pirlo. Who at his age stood out and totally bossed the game.
		
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This is truth. 

If nothing else, we showed our stoutness in defence in this tournament. I couldn't be happier that we have Joe Hart as our Number 1. At 25 years of age, he's the 1st world class keeper we've had in forever and I feel very happy about our defence going forward. Now, if we could just learn to score goals, we might actually win a few important games!


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2012)

If you pay a young man an obscene (word chosen carefully) amount of money every week for a lack lustre skill and performance, why do  you expect them to raise their level for the "big games".
The England squad are all off home to their multi-million pound homes and lifestyles and probably care not a jot.
In fact, due to the wet weather, they have all probably jetted off to their second homes in the sun.

Who won by the way?


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If you pay a young man an obscene (word chosen carefully) amount of money every week for a lack lustre skill and performance, why do  you expect them to raise their level for the "big games".
The England squad are all off home to their multi-million pound homes and lifestyles and probably care not a jot.
In fact, due to the wet weather, they have all probably jetted off to their second homes in the sun.

Who won by the way?
		
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That's nonsense. It's like saying Westwood doesn't mind when he comes close to winning a Major but just falls short. Professional sportsman want to win. All the time.


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			That's nonsense. It's like saying Westwood doesn't mind when he comes close to winning a Major but just falls short. Professional sportsman want to win. All the time.
		
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But if Westwood doesn't win, it's HIS fault.
Footballers have the 'get out of jail free card' and just blame their team mates/condition of the pitch/manager/coach/tactics/etc etc.

Of course they want to win, but that's not enough incentive.
More money for winning? 
Nah, got plenty
What happens when they lose? Nothing.
Why make the extra effort when I can blame someone else and still rake in the dosh.


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

bobmac said:



			But if Westwood doesn't win, it's HIS fault.
Footballers have the 'get out of jail free card' and just blame their team mates/condition of the pitch/manager/coach/tactics/etc etc.

Of course they want to win, but that's not enough incentive.
More money for winning? 
Nah, got plenty
What happens when they lose? Nothing.
Why make the extra effort when I can blame someone else and still rake in the dosh.
		
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Sorry Bob gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. They want to win but unfortunately for them they just aren't good enough


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## Qwerty (Jun 25, 2012)

Valentino said:



			They were broadcasting to the UK not just England, and my response initially was to a post made complaining that they weren't more biased.
		
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I never once complained that the commentary team weren't more biased.
I was complaining about all the negative crap Lawrenson and his sidekick was spouting throughout the second half whilst the game was still 0-0. 
England were poor but at 0-0 the game was still there to be won.

If Scotland were playing Italy in the quarter final of a major tournament and it was 0-0 with 10 mins to go would you be happy with a Scottish commentary team being so negative and telling you how great the opposition is.
I wouldnt be happy with it, and I'm English. And I'd be hoping Scotland got the result.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Some fair points made here, but the biggest disappointment from last nights  game was the negative rigid tactics of hodgsons.

To play 2 central midfielders against Italy's 3  men in the middle of the park was deadly and they were always gonna be overrun and spend most of the game chasing the ball. The last 6 games have been exactly the same tactically and that sums Roy up.

Any other top manager  would've adapted their tactics to the opposition and the game would not have been as 1sided as it was. There's some very good players in that England squad who I believe can keep the ball better than they showed. 

All in all 4 very poor performances but got lucky in a couple of them to scrape through the group stages.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2012)

Qwerty said:



			would you be happy with a Scottish commentary team being so negative and telling you how great the opposition is.
		
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Not sure you've seen much of Scotland - that sounds like most games, certainly every time we're up against one of the "major" nations. It's called realism.


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 25, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			Some fair points made here, but the biggest disappointment from last nights  game was the negative rigid tactics of hodgsons.

To play 2 central midfielders against Italy's 3  men in the middle of the park was deadly and they were always gonna be overrun and spend most of the game chasing the ball. The last 6 games have been exactly the same tactically and that sums Roy up.

Any other top manager  would've adapted their tactics to the opposition and the game would not have been as 1sided as it was. There's some very good players in that England squad who I believe can keep the ball better than they showed. 

All in all 4 very poor performances but got lucky in a couple of them to scrape through the group stages.
		
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Stu in "bashing Woy" post shocker!


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Sorry Bob gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. They want to win but unfortunately for them they just aren't good enough
		
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Don't be sorry.
I know nothing about football and care about it even less.
What I do know is, paying someone who isn't good enough vasts amount of money isn't going to make them want to get better.

Billy Connolly had it right when he said
"Play with the ball for a while and when you get bored, give it to someone you know":clap:


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			Stu in "bashing Woy" post shocker!   

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 No bashing here fella, a few players have took  fair bit of stick and the managers mistakes are being highlighted.




I still think he's a fraud of a manager though!


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## Fish (Jun 25, 2012)

It's no wonder Cole was knackered for his penalty with all the defending he had to do but Young had no excuse as he didn't perform throughout the tournament. 

Roy showed his tactical weakness in not taking either Milner, Young or both of them off who couldn't make the byline and service what strikers we had.

He should have changed the shape. 

As soon as he took Scotty Parker off the Italians ran the show from the midfield. Even if Parker was injured, he would have still given 110% but with the wingers not stretching the game, Italy dominated the midfield. 

Chamberlain should have been on for the whole of the extra time with Carroll at the expense of Rooney so at least their would be some hunger and fitness on show. 

Didn't have huge expectations but I think the back 5 now know how Custer felt :0

Hart 9/10: Cole 9/10: Johnson 8/10: Terry 9/10: Lescott 8/10: Gerrard 9/10: Milner 4/10: Parker 9/10: Young 3/10: Walcott 7/10: O-Chamberlain 8/10: Carroll 7/1: Rooney 5/10: Welbeck 8/10: Henderson 6/10

​


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2012)

After 5 minutes it summed up the change in both countries attitude,with regards to defending. Years ago an Italian team would have invited you on, "catenaccio" if you will, won the ball in their own half then slowly built up an attack from there in a slow pace until the final third were they up the tempo. 

The English team would have hunted you down for the ball in YOUR half.

I saw Italians huting in packs 10 yards outside our box when England had the ball, forcing England (as we will always take the easy option) into knocking it long. England sat back and waited for Italy to get to the edge of the England box, as they sat so deep, most of Rooney and Welbeck's closing down was in the centre circle.

At this point for 30 minutes the match could have gone either way, as both sides had chances, but Italy had the most.

For the rest of the game it went to Hodgson's default position, stay in position, defend deep, give your opponents respect (too much). When you have the ball, knock it long (ideally from the keeper), don't throw it out to the centre halfs or full backs.

Welbeck didn't hold the ball up well enough, Rooney is nowhere near fitness/sharpness. Gerrard didn't move over the half way line after his cramp. Milner did nothing, Young gave the ball away within 3 seconds of getting it each time.

The whole team needed to take the gamble and move up the pitch 30 yards, at least trying to pass it to feet. OK, Balotelli's pace may have suckered us, but it was when we were deep anyway, due to Pirlo having all day.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 25, 2012)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure you've seen much of Scotland - that sounds like most games, certainly every time we're up against one of the "major" nations. It's called realism.
		
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Is the correct answer FD. We have become so adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory it's a fine art (most recently the last two qualifying campaigns where we have put ourselves in a position of needing to win the last game but always fall short) we know this is the case and realistically reflect this. 

On the England game, agree with many on here that expectation was low so to get as far as they did was as good as it got. Italy bossed the game but with two defensive teams it was never going to be the cracker that the BBC had spent 4 days building up as one. 

On the England team, Roy (if he is to remain in charge - the FA are a fickle bunch and now that 'Arry's compo issue is miraculously resolved... see where I'm going?) must now rebuild and bring youth forward to learn and gain experience. 
I agree to players being picked on reputation rather than ability (Young, Henderson to name but two, big price tags but that's all form what I can see). This needs to stop if they are to have a chance going forward. 

On media bias, it will always happen, whether it's right or wrong is morally subjective but it WILL happen when you have people who love their country allowed to have captive audience (on TV or radio) to air _their _view.

A few have asked this but I can't see any answers given; How can an athlete and professional like Rooney be unfit/not sharp? He hasn't been injured, playing in about as many games as the rest of the squad up to the end of the season, only missed two games of the tournament through suspension, so how does missing two games without an injury suddenly make him unfit/not sharp?


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well. 

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks. 

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute. 

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence. 

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas. 

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well. 

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks. 

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute. 

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence. 

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas. 

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.
		
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QED.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Everyone keeps saying Hodgson should have been more attacking etc etc. not playing the Ox is a wise move. Protect the young man from games like that. A lot of the people clearly watched the ball and didn't watch the game. Playing counter attacking football involves lots of sprints by strikers off the ball to get into position. I can tell you that is knackering!!! You can't then expect them to mark Pirlo as well. 

For all the criticism being hurled at the team they kept a clean sheet and drew 0-0. The pundits in the Beeb drooling over Pirlo failed to really highlight two things:

1) he doesn't really defend the other two centre miss do it for him
2) England were outnumbered in midfield 3v2 which is why he haddock much space

If Hodgson had more time then maybe he'd have been able to devise a plan B. In terms of tactics the most sensible option would have been to drop Rooney, play Welbeck/Carroll up top on their own. Bring Milner inside to mark Pirlo out of the game with Walcott and Young/Ix on the flanks. 

But he had to stick with the formation as the team were unbeaten and Rooney scored against Ukraine. AND if Rooney had timed his jump for the overhead kick a fraction later it would have been 1-0 in the last minute. 

If we'd been dispatched 3/4-0 then fair enough but we werent. Milner's job is to defend we don't have the quality to have two out and out wingers. Yes I agree Young had a bad tournament but before the Euro's he was our form player. He just needs confidence. 

Loads of people on here saying we would finish bottom of the group before the Euros. They criticised the friendly results as being unconvincing. We then won the group which wasn't good enough and now we've lost on penalties they are overpaid pre madonnas. 

Sorry but this is all a of crock ....

Given the available players, the injuries we suffered just before the tournament and the late appointment of Hodgson I think they did remarkably well.
		
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How much time does he need to devise a plan b or c?

The tactics were wrong and he didn't adapt them during the game, his subtitutions were predictable and like for like.

Italy had the extra man in the centre of the park who was controlling the game and Roy didn't adapt his tactics to suit. We then had 2 men doing the work of 3, that for me is not good enough.


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## Robobum (Jun 25, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			.......
The tactics were wrong and he didn't adapt them during the game, his subtitutions were predictable and like for like.

.......
		
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And how would you have won the game then?


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

Robobum said:



			And how would you have won the game then?
		
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An excellent question


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## Fish (Jun 25, 2012)

Robobum said:



			And how would you have won the game then?
		
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I'd have started by getting Young off who contributed zero and I still can't fathom how he not only played in every game but finished every game also.  That would have been closely followed by Milner who also contributed close to nothing!

Rooney should have been taken off mid 2nd half, he was flagging and giving too much possession away by having to come too deep to get the ball, why, because Young and Milner couldn't keep possession or pass the ball! 

Its almost like we settled for penalties halfway through the 2nd half rather than changing the shape or injecting some pace into the game, after-all, we had it on the bench but Roy didn't use it.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 25, 2012)

Robobum said:



			And how would you have won the game then?
		
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Roy's biggest mistake was that he was in charge of the England team. If it were me, I'd have been managing Spain or Germany that should do the trick. :thup:


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## Robobum (Jun 25, 2012)

Fish said:



			I'd have started by getting Young off who contributed zero and I still can't fathom how he not only played in every game but finished every game also.  That would have been closely followed by Milner who also contributed close to nothing!

Rooney should have been taken off mid 2nd half, he was flagging and giving too much possession away by having to come too deep to get the ball, why, because Young and Milner couldn't keep possession or pass the ball! 

Its almost like we settled for penalties halfway through the 2nd half rather than changing the shape or injecting some pace into the game, after-all, we had it on the bench but Roy didn't use it.
		
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So that's 3 players off......pace injection?? Presume you mean Theo and Chamberlain?? And how will they change the shape??


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Robobum said:



			And how would you have won the game then?
		
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I would've started with Jones in the middle with Parker, pushed Gerrard a bit further forward behind  Carroll and played Chamberlain and Walcott giving us width and pace  when attacking and  getting them to tuck in when defending.

With that your man for man in the middle and you restrict Pirlo from having such an affect and control of the game. Having control in the midfield is a must at this level.

With Roys starting 11 yesterday he could've easily swapped any 4 players after half time,and although he made substitutions the tactics never changed. If plan A doesn't work then he must have a plan B considering he had 10 outfield subs to choose from.

Substitutions are luck if they work out but adapting your tactics throughout the game is skill. 

Hodgson and his merry men were happy for this game to go to pens and they got what they deserved.


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## Robobum (Jun 25, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			I would've started with Jones in the middle with Parker, pushed Gerrard a bit further forward behind  Carroll and played Chamberlain and Walcott giving us width and pace  when attacking and  getting them to tuck in when defending.

.........
		
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You've just created two perfect widemen that do good jobs in both directions. Neither of them have shown that previously (esp Theo) so why the presumption that they will have done it this time?? Ox may prove to be different but Arsene hasn't currently got him playing for his defensive qualities.

Would 2 attacking widemen got us to within a penalty kick of the semi final?? That's a whole new debate right there

For me, there was obvious logic in pretty much everything that Roy planned and asked the players to do. Only the perseverance with Young was baffling, the lad was horrifically out of form and should have been given a break.


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## louise_a (Jun 25, 2012)

A bit late to post on this thread, but my internet has been playing up all weekend.
I seemed to me that we were playing for penalties, we played 2 banks of 4 behind the ball and invited Italy to come at us. In contrast when England did have the ball, not very often in fairness, Italy closed us down quickly, often with 2 or 3 players on the man with the ball.
Later on in the game we just resoted to hoofball to Carroll, which got us nowhere.
So were we unlucky to lose on penalties, no, we were lucky not to get bewat in 90 minutes.


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

Robobum said:



			You've just created two perfect widemen that do good jobs in both directions. Neither of them have shown that previously (esp Theo) so why the presumption that they will have done it this time?? Ox may prove to be different but Arsene hasn't currently got him playing for his defensive qualities.

Would 2 attacking widemen got us to within a penalty kick of the semi final?? That's a whole new debate right there

For me, there was obvious logic in pretty much everything that Roy planned and asked the players to do. Only the perseverance with Young was baffling, the lad was horrifically out of form and should have been given a break.
		
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I think with the squad he had he made the right call. We're just not good enough in possession to attack teams right now.


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2012)

I would have played 5-3-2

Hart

Cole, Terry, Jagielka, Lescott, Richards (I know he wasn't there yes)

Parker, Gerrard, Adam Johnson (Man C connection and yes I know he wasn't there either)

Rooney and Walcott

Ox, Dafoe and Jones as high impact subs.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			I think with the squad he had he made the right call. We're just not good enough in possession to attack teams right now.
		
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I don't agree with this, all of a sudden these footballers who play  in  Europe's elite competition and usually in or around the quarters/semis every season have ecome poor players. There players are a lot better than what we are giving them credit for.

I wasn't suggesting to play with wingers but when you've got players of Walcott and Chamberlain pace then you must use them to give you a chance of creating/scoring.

Like I've said previously, Roys tactics were wrong from the start of this game and he had numerous chances to change them but he never and that cost them the chance of winning the game in normal time.

Playing for pens is a very dangerous game and last night was the reward for playing this way.


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

Stuart I doubt we will ever agree on this but this is my perception of the squad. Club football and international football are different beasts. I think if they were in this tournament Barcelona or Real Madrid would probably win it. 

1. At club level you play with the same players week in, week out and the coach has the chance to impress themselves on you and mould you into a style of play. 
2. If the coach then realises there is a missing ingredient they go out and buy that player. 
3. The missing link for England is a creative midfielder that can control the game at club level (Utd brought back Scholes, City = Silva, Chelsea = Mata, Spurs = Modric, Arsenal was Fabregas, would be Wilshere. Notice how none of these players is available to Roy. 

We've got the engine room but no craft. It's all well and good playing Walcott and Ox but neither can defend and to be fair are both better suited to a 4-3-3 formation which you can only play if the midfield three can keep the ball. 

Parker is great at breaking up play but not at distributing the ball. Milner wins the ball for City then gives it to Silva to do the damage. Lampard lives a sideways pass, Gerrard loves a Hollywood crossfield ball. Lescott looks uncomfortable in possession as does Terry so whenever it goes back to them it invariable ends up with Hart and HOOF!

To play the way you want us to play you need a centre back pairing of Cahill and a fully fit Rio Ferdinand, a fit Wilshere, a young again Scholes, Stevie G circa 2006, Wayne Rooney 2004. 

England didn't lose the game they drew it. They lost on penalties. If you want to complain moan about why Ashley Young took one and why Cole hit his penalty the same as the Champions League final


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## Piece (Jun 25, 2012)

Possession is king at international level. These players aren't comfortable with the ball, don't pass well enough under pressure and can't find space easily enough. Technically, their control is poor compared to others, therefore it makes it almost impossible to retain the ball.

We can talk about formations, pace, etc until the cows come home, but if you cant retain possession and move it about quickly, then we will continue to be dead in the water.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

Tiger said:



			England didn't lose the game they drew it. They lost on penalties. If you want to complain moan about why Ashley Young took one and why Cole hit his penalty the same as the Champions League final
		
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Pens are a very cruel way to lose a game and I'd never have a pop at a player or missing one, but last nights performance was all about 0-0 and hopefully win on pens which backfired.

That was the game plan set up by the manager and he failed to change his game plan when everybody could see it wasn't working.  I don't expect them to take the game to them gung ho style but from quality professional footballers we have i expect them to at least compete and try to win the match.

You can't say that performance was good enough to qualify/ win the match.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2012)

Have said it before Hodgson is great at getting the best out of mediocre teams and England are mediocrity personified. We do have the components of a good young side and he will get the best out of the players available.

We did as well as we could given the length of time Hodgson had to prepare his side and the resources he had. I think we need to get the grass roots right and play more 5 v5 and 7v7 small sided games to get skills inset and honed at an early age. 

As for unbiased commentary, who can forget Barry Davies at the Olympic hockey when we beat the Germans for the medal. As Britain scored....

"where was the German defence, and quite frankly who cares"


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2012)

Piece said:



			Possession is king at international level. These players aren't comfortable with the ball, don't pass well enough under pressure and can't find space easily enough. Technically, their control is poor compared to others, therefore it makes it almost impossible to retain the ball.

We can talk about formations, pace, etc until the cows come home, but if you cant retain possession and move it about quickly, then we will continue to be dead in the water.
		
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Correct, to an extent, but if you don't roll it out to the full backs or centre halves, straight away you are going with the percentage play of giving the ball away, by Joe Hart lumping it long. I think the manger was happy with this.

Did they change it at half time, full time, extra time - no. Hodgson is happy to play this way. Against the teams who are scared of England,they will be allowed to play more football as the other team will back off. Not the big teams though.

That is where Roys lack of ambition shows through.

Rooney should not have been kept on last night, Welbeck should have been, possibly paired with Caroll or Defoe, or as part of a diamond. Parker and Gerrard played square of each other virtually the whole tournament.

The back four and keeper were correct, but further forward we were poor, due to the lack of keeping possession or sliding passes through. 

We could have had the ox, Gerrard, Parker (or Jones) as a 3 with Carroll (central) and Theo and Welbeck either side of him.

Alternatively, Parker DM, Gerrard DM, Ox, Welbeck and Theo in behind Carroll.

You could have also had a 3-5-2/5-3-2.

A few other options also, but the point was there were various tactical as well as  personnel changes available. Roy decided to change the personnel, but not the shape, which was criminal.


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## smange (Jun 25, 2012)

So England lose on penalties......

Where the hell was the fella from the Mars Bar ads when you need him


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## Hooper (Jun 25, 2012)

Until we start producing footballers instead of athletes that are built like running baks we will always struggle. Anybody who has watched any great players will notice they make the hard things look simple. England produces players that make the easy look difficult. The balance and effortless way the foreigners play puts our boys to shame. No offense to Ukraine but even they looked more comfortable with the ball than us. As previous post says, we can talk until the cows come how about last night. We have to wake up and admit we are just not good enough to compete with the way the game is progressing.


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## AuburnWarrior (Jun 25, 2012)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the FA need to COMPLETELY re-think their attitude to the England team.  We're still operating on a model from the 50s/60s and it needs to change.
Football back then was like cricket is now - unless you played for England you didn't make decent money.  The PL players of today don't need to play for their respective countries to make good money so where's the incentive?  In order for England to be competitive you need hungry players.  I suggest the following:

Alex Ferguson is on record as saying that the CL is the pinnacle of any footballers career.  He's probably right.  In terms of revenue, etc it's arguable that it is bigger than the European Championships.  So, I propose that any PL footballer who is involved in a CL campaign cannot represent England at any time.
David Moyes of Everton is on record as saying that it's club first and country second.  OK, Everton are an OK PL side.  If Moyes is saying this then how many other managers are saying the exact same thing to their charges?  I propose that any PL player cannot play for England at any time.
These are fairly radical proposals.  I've basically said that the best players in England cannot represent England.  
BUT...
What it would mean is that the players of the Championship who are knocking on the door of the Premiership and who earn a fraction of what a PL players earns would be hungry and determined to do well for England.  It would be their chance to show the world what they can do and, hopefully, show the PL clubs that they can cut it at the highest level.
The PL stars may state in press conferences that they are proud and honoured to play for England but actions speak louder than words and, apart from Beckham, I can't think of an England player in the last 12 years that's shown any sort of emotion whilst on the pitch.  Where are our Terry Butchers, our Gazzas, our Paul Inces???  After a hard PL/CL season, playing for England represents a major inconvenience to these top stars and it shows!
One incident last night summed it all up for me.  Ashley Young received the ball wide on the left some 20 yards from the Italian right back.  He ran forwards 5 yards and passed it inside - to no-one!  Now, can you imagine Ryan Giggs doing that?  No!  He'd had got that ball and ran at the right back.  He'd have put the right back under pressure.  He'd have either skinned him and been through on goal/able to put a cross in or the right back would have had to foul Giggs and given away a free kick in a dangerous area.  Now, does Ashley Young do similar things whilst playing for Man U?  Does he get the ball and knock it inside or does he run at defenders?  
We were poor last night but is anyone really surprised?  I wasn't.
I'm not arrogant enough to think that England should win every game and win every championship but what I do want is a group of players who fully realise and fully understand what it means to 'play for England'.  I want to see them trying their absolute hardest, not simply going through the motions.  Last night had the air of a final group game where both teams had qualified.  Not good enough.
The saddest thing is that nothing will be done and, in two years time, we'll be posting the same things having limped out of the World Cup.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 25, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have said it before Hodgson is great at getting the best out of mediocre teams and England are mediocrity personified. We do have the components of a good young side and he will get the best out of the players available.

We did as well as we could given the length of time Hodgson had to prepare his side and the resources he had. I think we need to get the grass roots right and play more 5 v5 and 7v7 small sided games to get skills inset and honed at an early age.
		
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You can't say he got the best out of the side given those performances, a draw against a very poor France side who were atrocious throughout, and 2 very lucky wins against the Swedes and Ukraine. 

It looked to me that he got his ideas across to the players  very very well, its just a shame they were very negative. 

With regards to getting grass roots right, that's gonna take at least another 15yrs before anything comes out of that. What do we do in the meantime?


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## Tiger (Jun 25, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			You can't say he got the best out of the side given those performances, a draw against a very poor France side who were atrocious throughout, and 2 very lucky wins against the Swedes and Ukraine. 

It looked to me that he got his ideas across to the players  very very well, its just a shame they were very negative. 

With regards to getting grass roots right, that's gonna take at least another 15yrs before anything comes out of that. What do we do in the meantime?
		
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Stuart you and I are never going to agree on this. Personally I think you are mad if you believe that the reason we got knocked out was down to the manager and his tactics.

In normal time Hodgson's record is played 6 W4 D2. The kind of approach you are talking about IMO wouldn't work. The Italians didn't score yesterday. You talk about our lack of penetration Gerrard and Parker were shattered after 60 mins. You talk about the Italians closing down, it's easier when the opposition have no composure on the ball. We had three quality chances last night: Johnson, Rooney diving header, Roomey overhead kick. 

Hodgson didn't play for penalties from the start. He played to keep it tight and to try and nick a goal. It was only when the team were out on their feet that we started defending resolutely. 

Development will take 15 years. In the meantime lower your expectations. For my money your issue with Hodgson stems from his time in charge if your beloved Reds. For my money he has the makings of being a astute and pragmatic England manager


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## Stuart_C (Jun 26, 2012)

T



Tiger said:



			Stuart you and I are never going to agree on this. Personally I think you are mad if you believe that the reason we got knocked out was down to the manager and his tactics.

In normal time Hodgson's record is played 6 W4 D2. The kind of approach you are talking about IMO wouldn't work. The Italians didn't score yesterday. You talk about our lack of penetration Gerrard and Parker were shattered after 60 mins. You talk about the Italians closing down, it's easier when the opposition have no composure on the ball. We had three quality chances last night: Johnson, Rooney diving header, Roomey overhead kick. 

Hodgson didn't play for penalties from the start. He played to keep it tight and to try and nick a goal. It was only when the team were out on their feet that we started defending resolutely. 

Development will take 15 years. In the meantime lower your expectations. For my money your issue with Hodgson stems from his time in charge if your beloved Reds. For my money he has the makings of being a astute and pragmatic England manager
		
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I've based my opinions on what I've seen over the last four games, and I seriously believe he played for pens.

After 20 mins they were on the back foot and offered nothing in the attacking 3rd.
Those tactics never ever changed throughout that competition, unlike our rivals who have changed when needed too. You've got to have some flexibility within  your tactics/set up to be successful. 

As for lowering expectations, they can't get any lower fella.


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## Tiger (Jun 26, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			T

I've based my opinions on what I've seen over the last four games, and I seriously believe he played for pens.

After 20 mins they were on the back foot and offered nothing in the attacking 3rd.
Those tactics never ever changed throughout that competition, unlike our rivals who have changed when needed too. You've got to have some flexibility within  your tactics/set up to be successful. 

As for lowering expectations, they can't get any lower fella.
		
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He played for pens when he realised they were dead on their feet. My point is that with the conditioning of the players he had and the quality (or lack of it in the squad) what else could he have done. If we had gone at the Italians we would probably have lost in normal / extra time. I'm sure we would have been more attacking had the Italians scored , but they didn't.

When he needed to change it against Sweden he did and we came back from 2-1 down to win the game


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2012)

Farcical comments on here.
That score line could easily have been 3-2 for either side and the 'experts' would be claiming what a great game it was.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 26, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Farcical comments on here.
That score line could easily have been 3-2 for either side and the 'experts' would be claiming what a great game it was.
		
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If your talking good chances created, more like 6-2 to Italy.


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## Dodger (Jun 27, 2012)

My,been out the country for a while and it appears ingerlnd are oot.

Pleasing news.:cheers:


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2012)

AuburnWarrior said:



			I propose that any PL footballer who is involved in a CL campaign cannot represent England at any time.

<snip>

I propose that any PL player cannot play for England at any time.
These are fairly radical proposals.  I've basically said that the best players in England cannot represent England.  
BUT...
What it would mean is that the players of the Championship who are knocking on the door of the Premiership and who earn a fraction of what a PL players earns would be hungry and determined to do well for England.  It would be their chance to show the world what they can do and, hopefully, show the PL clubs that they can cut it at the highest level.
		
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AW - this is either genius or complete insanity and I can't quite work out which.

Plus the championship players have the added incentive of knowing if they win their dream move to the premiership they never have to play for England again! 

No idea what would happen but I'd like to see it. Of course, I don't actually care if England never win another game!


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## Tiger (Jun 28, 2012)

So the Germans playing a more attacking formation also struggle to break down the Italians and concede two crucial goals in the process. Interesting...


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## Stuart_C (Jun 29, 2012)

Tiger said:



			So the Germans playing a more attacking formation also struggle to break down the Italians and concede two crucial goals in the process. Interesting...
		
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Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet  you  still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact


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## Tiger (Jun 29, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet  you  still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact
		
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They tried to shut down Pirlo, they changed their formation and still failed. The only reason you hate Hodgson is because you are a Liverpool fan


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2012)

I have thought for a long time that England would do better by chosing Championship League [or whatever it is called this week, old division 2] players.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 29, 2012)

Stuart_C said:



			Attack as much as you like, unless you stop the supply (Pirlo) theres a very good chance they'll hurt you and that's what England and Germany never done.

You've said in previous posts in this thread that Parker AND Gerrard where tired after 60mins chasing the ball (poor tactics)yet you still won't admit Roy got it wrong.

If it was any other manager in charge playing the way he did everybody would be criticising them. Fact
		
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It wasn't just Pirlo though last night, they were scared stiff of Balotelli and got far too tight, both goals were defensive errors and Germany in the end got punished for playing too attacking. De Rossi was pulling the strings too like he has in most of the matches and Montolivo doing the work they have a hard working class midfield that possibly on Spain can match.


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## bladeplayer (Jun 29, 2012)

Well Ireland got slated for not playing well , we gave Italy as good a game a Germany did , different tactics il admit but the early goal killed us ,  the two teams out of our group are in the final , maybe the gobsh*te journalists over here should take note , 

Stuart, which would you prefer England taking Italy to pens & having a 50/50 chance or geting the lesson Germany got ?

Ok it ended 2-1 but Italy had the chance to make it 4-0 by the end ..


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## Val (Jun 29, 2012)

Marshy77 said:



			It wasn't just Pirlo though last night, they were scared stiff of Balotelli and got far too tight, both goals were defensive errors and Germany in the end got punished for playing too attacking. De Rossi was pulling the strings too like he has in most of the matches and Montolivo doing the work they have a hard working class midfield that possibly on Spain can match.
		
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The full Italian midfield are class and if too much focus is on Pirlo then Montolivo, Di Rossi and Cassano will pull teams apart with big Mario hovering around the last defender. This is exactly what Germany did last night.

I firmly believe Italy will beat Spain mainly due to Spain stubborness to play a striker.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 29, 2012)

Valentino said:



			The full Italian midfield are class and if too much focus is on Pirlo then Montolivo, Di Rossi and Cassano will pull teams apart with big Mario hovering around the last defender. This is exactly what Germany did last night.

I firmly believe Italy will beat Spain mainly due to Spain stubborness to play a striker.
		
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I backed Spain from the start but after watching them pull England and Germany apart I think you could be right. I've been really impressed with Montolivo he looks a class act and by playing alongside Pirlo and De Rossi he's only going to improve.


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## Val (Jun 29, 2012)

Marshy77 said:



			I backed Spain from the start but after watching them pull England and Germany apart I think you could be right. I've been really impressed with Montolivo he looks a class act and by playing alongside Pirlo and De Rossi he's only going to improve.
		
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Italy should have beaten Spain in the group stages already so they won't fear them.

Impressive side and to think they were 7/2 odds last night.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 29, 2012)

Tiger said:



			They tried to shut down Pirlo, they changed their formation and still failed. The only reason you hate Hodgson is because you are a Liverpool fan 

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Tiger, your probably right. We seen the way Roy sets out his team, tactics, subs, press conferences etc for 6 months, and to be honest most LFC fans would have wanted him to fail, as most aren't arsed about England.

However, he still didn't do anything exceptional in the Euro champs, he wasn't woeful either. He wont do great as an England manger though, he may qualify for Brazil but we will get there and at best go out at the QF's again.

What Stuart said, and I agree with, is that he has generally only done well with under-performing or small teams who don't expect much. For clubs/teams that expect a lot (never mind if they should or not) Inter, Liverpool and England he doesn't do much.

He is good at making his team hard to beat, but not good at making teams better from an attacking point of view.


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## Snelly (Jun 29, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			Well Ireland got slated for not playing well , we gave Italy as good a game a Germany did , different tactics il admit but the early goal killed us ,  the two teams out of our group are in the final , maybe the gobsh*te journalists over here should take note , 

Stuart, which would you prefer England taking Italy to pens & having a 50/50 chance or geting the lesson Germany got ?

Ok it ended 2-1 but Italy had the chance to make it 4-0 by the end ..
		
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You make reasonable points but just to check, you are not saying that England are comparable to Germany are you? 

That would be absolutely ridiculous... I am sure you are not...


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## Marshy77 (Jun 29, 2012)

Liverbirdie said:



			What Stuart said, and I agree with, is that *he has generally only done well with under-performing or small teams who don't expect much.* For clubs/teams that expect a lot (never mind if they should or not) Inter, Liverpool and England he doesn't do much.
		
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Isn't that England? To be fair to him and I read a bit about him when was appointed as England and he did do well in his time at Inter, even the chairman has said so ever since. 

I'm prepared to give him time. We looked a better team under him than the last couple of managers and he only had over a month with the players, I don't expect a dramatic change from now until Brazil but I wouldn't expect that under Harry if he were to have been appointed.


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## Junior (Jun 29, 2012)

People can blame who they want, but the one simple fact is that our players are / were nowhere near good enough.  

Yes, we played with heart, which was good to see, but Jo Hart aside (and im as far from a City fan as you can get), we have no world class players. 

I've never seen a team so clueless as England were going forward against Italy.  It's worrying that we have no creative central midfielders coming through the ranks.


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## bladeplayer (Jun 29, 2012)

Snelly said:



			You make reasonable points but just to check, you are not saying that England are comparable to Germany are you? 

That would be absolutely ridiculous... I am sure you are not...
		
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No mate def not ,  what im saying is Italy are probably better than most (myself included) gave them credit for , so RH tactics against them was spot on , he realised they were a better team & tried to contain them , ok it didnt work but it got closer than all except Spain so far .. 
England & Germany are as far apart football wise as they are geographicly ..


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## bladeplayer (Jun 29, 2012)

Junior said:



			People can blame who they want, but the one simple fact is that our players are / were nowhere near good enough.  

Yes, we played with heart, which was good to see, but Jo Hart aside (and im as far from a City fan as you can get), we have no world class players. 

I've never seen a team so clueless as England were going forward against Italy.  It's worrying that we have no creative central midfielders coming through the ranks.
		
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Not near good enough ? totaly agree mate thats true ...

Played with heart ? most but not all ... 

Creative Midfielders ? i would say cleverley & wilshire may well grow into this ,  world class centre forward seems a harder find id say ..


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## Snelly (Jun 29, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			No mate def not ,  what im saying is Italy are probably better than most (myself included) gave them credit for , so RH tactics against them was spot on , he realised they were a better team & tried to contain them , ok it didnt work but it got closer than all except Spain so far .. 
England & Germany are as far apart football wise as they are geographicly ..
		
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I agree with you.  Italy are impressive.

And we are not in the same ball park as them or any other of the semi-finalists. 

To those saying we have no creative midfielders, I would suggest that we do but they were either not selected, injured or retired.  E.g. Leon Britton, Adam Johnson, Jack Wilshere or Paul Scholes.


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## Tiger (Jun 29, 2012)

Hart, Butland, Richards, Walker, Jones, Cleverly, Rodwell, Wilshere, Henderson, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Nick Powell, Welbeck...

Quite a few players there that have potential but with the exceptions if Wilshere and Hart I dont see any world class players in there. We've lacked creativity for a long time but if we can be hard to beat it at least gives us a chance. 

I think this generation of players will benefit from the muted expectations and the missing 'golden generation' label. A WC quarter final exit on penalties sounds about right. Would make us one of the top eight teams in the world...

Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Spain, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands, Croatia, Ivory Coast, Ghana...


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 29, 2012)

Marshy77 said:



			Isn't that England? To be fair to him and I read a bit about him when was appointed as England and he did do well in his time at Inter, even the chairman has said so ever since. 

Yes England are under-achievers, but it still doesn't stop massive over-expectation from the tabloids and the ingerlund fans. Albeit, more muted this time than normal.

When we went toe to toe with Italy for 20 minutes we created some good chances, but then we sat back waited for pens (which we all know we are crap at) then went out as normal. Just because a team is better than you,doesn't mean you just give up as an attacking force.

Greece have won this competition in the last decade,even.

Inter still sacked him after 2 years didn't they?
		
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