# Any car mechanics



## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

So the wife walked back into the house this morning and said that her car was dead and wouldn't start, so I dropped her at work. 

 Once back I didn't try it, I just hooked up the leads to my car and turned hers over, and what a racket!  

It sounded so lumpy, very juddery almost a heavy struggling sound, then after only a minute or 2 at most it sounded fine, nice and smooth!  I unhooked the leads, let it run for 5 minutes, turned it off and restarted it, no problem, first time.  

I've since left it until 1pm around 4.5hrs and turned it over and again, that very juddery, lumpy kind of running, revved it a couple of times and let it tick over and again after around a minute it then went smooth again!

I've now driven it to my wife's work and walked Max (my dog) back as its only a couple of mile, explained that it may sound rough when she starts it in 4hrs but to sit tight until it goes smooth and then drive home, but what the hell do I look for, what could it be?


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 30, 2014)

As it been stood a while over Xmas? 
If so it may just need a good run. 

Ps I'm no mechanic,just a thought.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

you haven't been very specific. What engine and make is it?

From the sounds of it i'm going to assume its diesel?


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			As it been stood a while over Xmas? 
If so it may just need a good run. 

Ps I'm no mechanic,just a thought.
		
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No, used daily.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 30, 2014)

In that case I'm going to have to bow out. 
Sorry mate,that's the only advice I had :-/


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

DanFST said:



			you haven't been very specific. What engine and make is it?
		
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Its a Nissan Micra, 1000 (988cc), 2002 (51), Petrol, had from new, just passed MOT last Monday!


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

When was stye last time the battery was changed?


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Sounds like the battery might be the problem. 
If you have a test meter then put it across and if it's less than 10v then there is an issue. Start it up and it should go to around 14.5-16v if the alternator is ok.

As above if its sat for more than 4 days unused it may just need a run to get some activity back in the cells. If it has been getting used and still doing it then new battery time I would say.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 30, 2014)

Was there any smoke when it was running lumpy? Sounds to me like an under/overfueling problem while its cold.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

DanFST said:



			When was stye last time the battery was changed?
		
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Simple answer, no idea so ages ago!



GreiginFife said:



			Sounds like the battery might be the problem. 
If you have a test meter then put it across and if it's less than 10v then there is an issue. Start it up and it should go to around 14.5-16v if the alternator is ok.

As above if its sat for more than 4 days unused it may just need a run to get some activity back in the cells. If it has been getting used and still doing it then new battery time I would say.
		
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Used daily, not sat, even for a single day.

Why the battery, why it would it start OK, although stuttery, and then run and tick-over smooth, how does the battery impact that?



SaintHacker said:



			Was there any smoke when it was running lumpy? Sounds to me like an under/overfueling problem while its cold.
		
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I noticed a little white smoke as I turned it off when I got it to her work but thought nothing of it, just thought it was cold!


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## BTatHome (Dec 30, 2014)

Lumpy rattling sounding, is likely the oil being very cold and not circulating properly (possibly just older oil, as it does loose viscosity after a while) .... my diesel sounds much worse at the moment, but warms up quite quickly and sounds fine afterwards.

A dodgy battery can be effected by the cold, and same thing has happened to wife's mini, as soon as the cold arrived the car failed to start but jumped very easily and worked fine then ... Left overnight and same problem in the morning.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			I noticed a little white smoke as I turned it off when I got it to her work but thought nothing of it, just thought it was cold!
		
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Thats probably just a bit of steam from the cold exhaust.
Right, the battery won't affect the running once its started. However, if she's only doing short journeys it won't get charged up much and this cold weather will just kill it, so its worth getting it checked/changed for that reason alone. But take it for a decent run at least once a week to warm everything through and give it a good charge.
Is it due a service? Again if its just had short journeys it won't have got warm enough to fully get off choke so the plugs could be fouled which could cause the bad cold running. HT leads can break down in extremes of temperature. Dampness in the distributor/coils etc etc


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

I'm going to guess it's battery. If it's never been changed i'd go straight to get a new one. Because if if it doesn't fix the problem, which i think it will. Yours will die very soon!


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			Simple answer, no idea so ages ago!



Used daily, not sat, even for a single day.

Why the battery, why it would it start OK, although stuttery, and then run and tick-over smooth, how does the battery impact that?



I noticed a little white smoke as I turned it off when I got it to her work but thought nothing of it, just thought it was cold!
		
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The battery powers the starter mechanism. So if there is low charge then the car will struggle to start and run with less than 12v. As the alternator brings the charge level  up the engine struggles less. The reality is that the battery does not last for ever, so will need replaced at some point. If its never been replaced then you have got a good life from it.
White smoke from a battery problem is also common in my experience as the burn mixture isn't quite being combusted properly.


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## sawtooth (Dec 30, 2014)

I'd say battery as well especially if it hasnt been changed for a long time.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Lumpy rattling sounding, is likely the oil being very cold and not circulating properly (possibly just older oil, as it does loose viscosity after a while) .... my diesel sounds much worse at the moment, but warms up quite quickly and sounds fine afterwards.

A dodgy battery can be effected by the cold, and same thing has happened to wife's mini, as soon as the cold arrived the car failed to start but jumped very easily and worked fine then ... Left overnight and same problem in the morning.
		
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I checked the oil as I thought this at first as it gave me the impression of no or little oil, hence the juddery to smooth after a short time. Time for an oil change (service) I think.



SaintHacker said:



			Thats probably just a bit of steam from the cold exhaust.
Right, the battery won't affect the running once its started. However, if she's only doing short journeys it won't get charged up much and this cold weather will just kill it, so its worth getting it checked/changed for that reason alone. But take it for a decent run at least once a week to warm everything through and give it a good charge.
Is it due a service? Again if its just had short journeys it won't have got warm enough to fully get off choke so the plugs could be fouled which could cause the bad cold running. HT leads can break down in extremes of temperature. Dampness in the distributor/coils etc etc
		
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Daily (5) very short distances, work is a mile away then sits all day until she comes back, then it goes about 1 mile to Sainsbury's and another mile to her mums on a Saturday, its only done 34k miles from new 

I don't think its ever been serviced, it fly's through it MOT every year and just passed again on Monday so I don't go looking for problems if everything is OK, but as I state above, think I'll get it serviced for her, plugs, oil, filters etc. 



DanFST said:



			I'm going to guess it's battery. If it's never been changed i'd go straight to get a new one. Because if if it doesn't fix the problem, which i think it will. Yours will die very soon!
		
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I don't want to guess, if I changed the battery, which aren't cheap, and the problem persistd, I'd be pretty peeved.



GreiginFife said:



			The battery powers the starter mechanism. So if there is low charge then the car will struggle to start and run with less than 12v. As the alternator brings the charge level  up the engine struggles less. The reality is that the battery does not last for ever, so will need replaced at some point. If its never been replaced then you have got a good life from it.
White smoke from a battery problem is also common in my experience as the burn mixture isn't quite being combusted properly.
		
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Hmm, I need to keep it going for her until our mechanic who has his garage (business) next to her work comes back next Monday, I'll get it serviced where no doubt he'll check the battery also.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

Thanks everyone, I'll get it booked in and report back the findings :thup:


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2014)

I have worked forever (up to recently) In plant hire and the first spell of really cold weather would see off any dodgy battery. I used to change several batteries this side of new year!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2014)

Sounds like an electrical problem.   It maybe that there is damp getting into the HT system that is Ok when the car has warmed up.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			Daily (5) very short distances, work is a mile away then sits all day until she comes back, then it goes about 1 mile to Sainsbury's and another mile to her mums on a Saturday, its only done 34k miles from new 

I don't think its ever been serviced, it fly's through it MOT every year and just passed again on Monday so I don't go looking for problems if everything is OK, but as I state above, think I'll get it serviced for her, plugs, oil, filters etc.
		
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That'll almost certainly be your problem. Get it done then take it out for a good blast, and then give it another one regularly!


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## Nosevi (Dec 30, 2014)

My guess would be that it's not actually the battery, and it's either condensation in the coil, connection between coil and HT leads or connection between HT leads and spark plugs. 

When you start up the moisture prevents a good connection somewhere causing the car to run on less cylinders, when it warms up the the moisture is dispersed and so the connection is made and the car runs on all cylinders. My bet is in the top of the coil if it keeps doing it as moisture is more likely to be trapped in there and so re-condense when the car cools down. Good squirt of WD40 on both ends of each HT leads and open up the coil and give it a good dry out and you should be firing on all cylinders again!

I'm not a mechanic but I own an Italian car - if you don't 'get' car electronics it can get pricey keeping them going 

And I apologise unreservedly for that "firing on all cylinders" pun.....


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## Nosevi (Dec 30, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds like an electrical problem.   It maybe that there is damp getting into the HT system that is Ok when the car has warmed up.
		
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Bingo - was typing over you. I guarantee this will be the snag. The lumpy running is a misfiring cylinder causing the engine to run out of balance. Easy way to check, unplug the HT leads one at a time - unplug one that's working and it'll get worse or the engine will stop, unplug the one which isn't and there'll be no difference. You can also check for a spark by holding the HT lead close to the cylinder block while the car is running to see if it sparks (but be careful as it'll give you a bit of a jolt if it get you instead of the cylinder block).


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

Nosevi said:



			My guess would be that it's not actually the battery, and it's either condensation in the coil, connection between coil and HT leads or connection between HT leads and spark plugs. 

When you start up the moisture prevents a good connection somewhere causing the car to run on less cylinders, when it warms up the the moisture is dispersed and so the connection is made and the car runs on all cylinders. My bet is in the top of the coil if it keeps doing it as moisture is more likely to be trapped in there and so re-condense when the car cools down. Good squirt of WD40 on both ends of each HT leads and open up the coil and give it a good dry out and you should be firing on all cylinders again!

I'm not a mechanic but I own an Italian car - if you don't 'get' car electronics it can get pricey keeping them going 

And I apologise unreservedly for that "firing on all cylinders" pun.....
		
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Nosevi said:



			Bingo - was typing over you. I guarantee this will be the snag. The lumpy running is a misfiring cylinder causing the engine to run out of balance. Easy way to check, unplug the HT leads one at a time - unplug one that's working and it'll get worse or the engine will stop, unplug the one which isn't and there'll be no difference. You can also check for a spark by holding the HT lead close to the cylinder block while the car is running to see if it sparks (but be careful as it'll give you a bit of a jolt if it get you instead of the cylinder block).
		
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Thank you, I did say to her I thought it could be plugs as when I drove it back to her works it didn't seem to have any poke, especially in 3rd gear.

I'll take her into work tomorrow and then have a play with what you suggest on the beast, I'll still have her serviced though next week, I think after 12yrs she deserves it


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			I'll still have her serviced though next week, I think after 12yrs she deserves it 

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That's the car not the wife :smirk:


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Nosevi said:



			My guess would be that it's not actually the battery, and it's either condensation in the coil, connection between coil and HT leads or connection between HT leads and spark plugs. 

When you start up the moisture prevents a good connection somewhere causing the car to run on less cylinders, when it warms up the the moisture is dispersed and so the connection is made and the car runs on all cylinders. My bet is in the top of the coil if it keeps doing it as moisture is more likely to be trapped in there and so re-condense when the car cools down. Good squirt of WD40 on both ends of each HT leads and open up the coil and give it a good dry out and you should be firing on all cylinders again!

I'm not a mechanic but I own an Italian car - if you don't 'get' car electronics it can get pricey keeping them going 

And I apologise unreservedly for that "firing on all cylinders" pun.....
		
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52 plate will have a DIS pack. Good luck opening that up.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Robin...if you do need to replace the battery, look for one online as it's much cheaper than the shops. I ordered a new one for my Audi yesterday, Â£49 inc next day delivery with a 4 year warranty  :thup:


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Nosevi said:



			Bingo - was typing over you. I guarantee this will be the snag. The lumpy running is a misfiring cylinder causing the engine to run out of balance. Easy way to check, unplug the HT leads one at a time - unplug one that's working and it'll get worse or the engine will stop, unplug the one which isn't and there'll be no difference. You can also check for a spark by holding the HT lead close to the cylinder block while the car is running to see if it sparks (but be careful as it'll give you a bit of a jolt if it get you instead of the cylinder block).
		
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Its also highly likely that if there was a misfire in any cylinder then the ECU would throw a fault and the EML would be on. If it was just struggling through low initial charge but all cylinders were firing, albeit poorly, then no fault would be thrown.

I appreciate you have a vintage sports car but modern engines/control systems are a million miles from your fairly rww mechanical Ferrari.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			52 plate will have a DIS pack. Good luck opening that up.
		
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drive4show said:



			Robin...if you do need to replace the battery, look for one online as it's much cheaper than the shops. I ordered a new one for my Audi yesterday, Â£49 inc next day delivery with a 4 year warranty  :thup:
		
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:thup:


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:







:thup:
		
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Older cars had a coil which lived in the distributer, it could be opened up and accessed for cleaning and adjustment as most adjustment was manual at the carb etc.
Modern cars (98 on) mainly have Distributerless Ignition System or DIS pack as a replacement. A very sealed unit with compurt programmed timing for your spark plugs as modt adjustments are now electronically controlled. So you cant just open it up and squirt WD40 in it.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			I don't want to guess, if I changed the battery, which aren't cheap, and the problem persistd, I'd be pretty peeved.
		
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Then learn about cars yourself. Car repair is almost always guess work in the initial diagnostics.

I'm 90% certain It will be the battery, it needs changing anyway.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Then learn about cars yourself. Car repair is almost always guess work in the initial diagnostics.

I'm 90% certain It will be the battery, it needs changing anyway.
		
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Why does it "need changing anyway", especially if it turned out not to be the battery?


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## Smiffy (Dec 30, 2014)

Hi mate
 my service manager (Nissan) says the earlier Micras can flood if you sit there pumping the throttle for any length of time while you are trying to crank it over. This would cause the lumpy running until it has cleared itself.
Battery alone wouldn't cause lumpy running but he said it's worth getting a battery test done on it.
Also, if it HAD flooded and you finally got it going again, it would most probably chuck a load of ***** out of the exhaust in it's efforts to clear itself. That's most probably what you saw.
Hope that helps
Rob


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## Foxholer (Dec 30, 2014)

It's definitely worth taking the car for an extended run a few times as those short trips are engine killers!

But make sure you take Jumper Leads with you!

Battery could be on the way out but, as you say, quite pricey so worth checking out initially.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2014)

Smiffy said:



			Hi mate
 my service manager (Nissan) says the earlier Micras can flood if you sit there pumping the throttle for any length of time while you are trying to crank it over. This would cause the lumpy running until it has cleared itself.
Battery alone wouldn't cause lumpy running but he said it's worth getting a battery test done on it.
Also, if it HAD flooded and you finally got it going again, it would most probably chuck a load of ***** out of the exhaust in it's efforts to clear itself. That's most probably what you saw.
Hope that helps
Rob
		
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Hi Rob, No pumping mate, even when I turned it over and it fired up first time it really rocked and was noisy and then after only a minute or 2 and just gently keeping the revs going it then ran and ticked over smooth.  The wife has just returned after I dropped the car off to her at 1pm, again it was lumpy and noisy and then ran smooth after ticking over for a few minutes whilst she cleaned the screen!

Going to check the plugs, clean and WD40 all the leads after I drop her off tomorrow and see if that does anything, I'll also take her for a spin down the A45 to my club and back and open her up


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## gripitripit (Dec 30, 2014)

When was it last serviced??


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			Why does it "need changing anyway", especially if it turned out not to be the battery?
		
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You have asked for advice, I have given it to you! I'm assuming you know nothing about cars from your posts, so i'm trying to make it as simple as possible

Your battery won't be hold anywhere near the amount of charge a new one can. As such you are having the problems you stated in your post. Until the alternator can top up the battery to a semi respectable level. I'm assuming it's way worse on a cold morning? Think of it like the difference in battery life on your phone compared to when you got it, to the end of your contract. Then think of it over 12 years. 

It sounds the car has been poorly maintained, i'm amazed it hasn't died on you yet. It is imperative you change the oil and oil filter ASAP.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 30, 2014)

My thoughts, for what they are worth, would be to look at the head gasket or cylinder head.  When cold, the failed head or gasket will allow coolant past which then results in poor running as the mixture isn't right and the white smoke as the coolant is burnt off.  As the car warms up & the metal expands, the crack can then seal up, resulting in normal running & normal exhaust colour.  Turn it off, it gets cold, the leak reappears & the whole cycle starts again.

Is the coolant level dropping?  Also remove the oil filler cap; is there a light brown "mayonnaise" there on the underside?  If so, that's your problem.

I don't buy the battery; once it's turned the car over the alternator should kick in & give a decent level of electrical power.  If it hasn't been reluctant to start before this I doubt that the battery is your problem.  Damp in the electrics could make it reluctant to start but I don't think would explain the white smoke.

Good luck.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			My thoughts, for what they are worth, would be to look at the head gasket or cylinder head.  When cold, the failed head or gasket will allow coolant past which then results in poor running as the mixture isn't right and the white smoke as the coolant is burnt off.  As the car warms up & the metal expands, the crack can then seal up, resulting in normal running & normal exhaust colour.  Turn it off, it gets cold, the leak reappears & the whole cycle starts again.

Is the coolant level dropping?  Also remove the oil filler cap; is there a light brown "mayonnaise" there on the underside?  If so, that's your problem.

I don't buy the battery; once it's turned the car over the alternator should kick in & give a decent level of electrical power.  If it hasn't been reluctant to start before this I doubt that the battery is your problem.  Damp in the electrics could make it reluctant to start but I don't think would explain the white smoke.

Good luck.
		
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What is your experience with cars? as that is a very far fetched and scaremongering post.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

If the charge in the battery drops to 9.5-10v this would cause stuggle starts, the engine components that run off of the battery don't suddenly switch to a separate circuit when the alternator "kicks in" and still run off of the battery which will pick up more charge as the alternator feeds it (assuming the alternator is 100% efficient).
This can be demonstrated as lumpy although its really just mord of a limp mode.

Personally, if it was my motor I would be testing the battery charge when idle and then tracking its charge once started. Most likely idle is about 10v and once running on alternator takes that minute or two to get up to the 14.5/15v mark.
My 2002 Astra suffers the same problem if its sat for a while (different cause of the same symptom) starts up like a bag of spanners before coming good. Battery test showed idle 10.1v rising to 15.8v after approx 2mins. 

Talk of head gasket, while not unrealistic, is maybe a bit drastic.

IMO with how ignition systems are set up on more modern engines (mainly sealed units) spraying WD40 on snything won't help. I would also be skepticsl of condensation build up each and every time.

All just my opinion though, I did 3 years of my apprenticeship but that was a long time ago  (1996) and these days I only do project cars stripping and rebuilding engines and running gear.

Just an additional thought to add: white smoke will be a result of any imbalanced fuel/air mix on a poor start up from every experience I have of it. It will also give a petrol smell if a little rich a mixture.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			If the charge in the battery drops to 9.5-10v this would cause stuggle starts, the engine components that run off of the battery don't suddenly switch to a separate circuit when the alternator "kicks in" and still run off of the battery which will pick up more charge as the alternator feeds it (assuming the alternator is 100% efficient).
This can be demonstrated as lumpy although its really just mord of a limp mode.

Personally, if it was my motor I would be testing the battery charge when idle and then tracking its charge once started. Most likely idle is about 10v and once running on alternator takes that minute or two to get up to the 14.5/15v mark.
My 2002 Astra suffers the same problem if its sat for a while (different cause of the same symptom) starts up like a bag of spanners before coming good. Battery test showed idle 10.1v rising to 15.8v after approx 2mins. 

Talk of head gasket, while not unrealistic, is maybe a bit drastic.

IMO with how ignition systems are set up on more modern engines (mainly sealed units) spraying WD40 on snything won't help. I would also be skepticsl of condensation build up each and every time.

All just my opinion though, I did 3 years of my apprenticeship but that was a long time ago  (1996) and these days I only do project cars stripping and rebuilding engines and running gear.

Just an additional thought to add: white smoke will be a result of any imbalanced fuel/air mix on a poor start up from every experience I have of it. It will also give a petrol smell if a little rich a mixture.
		
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Spot on, I'm also willing to bet the "White Smoke" Is just condensation.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Smiffy said:



			Hi mate
 my service manager (Nissan) says the earlier Micras can flood if you sit there pumping the throttle for any length of time while you are trying to crank it over. This would cause the lumpy running until it has cleared itself.
Battery alone wouldn't cause lumpy running but he said it's worth getting a battery test done on it.
Also, if it HAD flooded and you finally got it going again, it would most probably chuck a load of ***** out of the exhaust in it's efforts to clear itself. That's most probably what you saw.
Hope that helps
Rob
		
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Rob, not sure your service manager is thinking sbout the same car here, but I am sure the 2002 Micra was an electronic throttle body with a throttle position sensor. Very, very hard to flood as the fuel flow to the injectors is controlled electronically and not like older cable throttles. By very hard, I would actually say impossible if the car isnt running.


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## Nosevi (Dec 30, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			Its also highly likely that if there was a misfire in any cylinder then the ECU would throw a fault and the EML would be on. If it was just struggling through low initial charge but all cylinders were firing, albeit poorly, then no fault would be thrown.

I appreciate you have a vintage sports car but modern engines/control systems are a million miles from your fairly rww mechanical Ferrari.
		
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Must confess I didn't see the year but couldn't the snag still be the same - damp in the system? I've had it happen to cars from an old MGB to a more modern Skoda Fabia - exactly the same symptoms and exactly the same cause. In contrast I've push started several cars with completely flat batteries and never had one run anything but fine. I think a new coil pack for a 52 Nissan Micra runs at about Â£40 so hopefully not the end of the world if you can't get into it. We'll see what Fish comes back with 

As an aside the Ferrari has 2 Motronic ECUs, MAFs that you need to set the resistance of, Lambda sensors etc and you have to reset the ECUs from time to time as they seem to forget things. It also posts error codes when the moon is in the wrong phase or, I expect, merely to piss me of


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

Nosevi said:



			Must confess I didn't see the year but couldn't the snag still be the same - damp in the system? I've had it happen to cars from an old MGB to a more modern Skoda Fabia - exactly the same symptoms and exactly the same cause. In contrast I've push started several cars with completely flat batteries and never had one run anything but fine. I think a new coil pack for a 52 Nissan Micra runs at about Â£40 so hopefully not the end of the world if you can't get into it. We'll see what Fish comes back with 

As an aside the Ferrari has 2 Motronic ECUs, MAFs that you need to set the resistance of, Lambda sensors etc and you have to reset the ECUs from time to time as they seem to forget things. It also posts error codes when the moon is in the wrong phase or, I expect, merely to piss me of 

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Assuming that a misfire was being caused by condensation, or anything else,  then a bigger problem exists if the ECU is not detecting and reporting in the form of the Engine Management Light coming on, which as it hasnt been mentioned, I assume hasn't happened.
A car starting from a bump/push start will probably run poorly when it starts but the act of it jolting (and the subsequent joy at it starting/relief) to start masks it slightly.

The question then remains that if this was merely a true misfire then why is the ECU not flagging it? It should flag misfire on bank x (P0340 I think).

Advice has been sough, advice has been given. Advice acceptance is discretionary of the OP. I can add no more in my limited knowledge.


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## sawtooth (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			Why does it "need changing anyway", especially if it turned out not to be the battery?
		
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If its older than 4 years I would be inclined to just change it anyway. Halfords even fit it for you and take the old one away.

Old batteries are like leaky buckets trying to hold water.

Even if the alternator is good the battery most likely not able to store a good charge.

Cold weather affects battery efficiency plus there is additional load this time of year. Ie demisters, heaters, lights, etc as you will know.

Bad batteries get found out.

I think also a bad battery may affect quality of the spark, not sure in modern cars if this is the case. Buy might explain lumpiness if so.


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## Golfmmad (Dec 30, 2014)

If not the battery, first thing that came to mind - is there antifreeze in the cooling system. Could explain a shuddery start and then running smoothly when warmed up. The recent cold snap could be causing water to start freezing if there isn't sufficient strength of antifreeze.

Just my thoughts. :mmm:


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 30, 2014)

DanFST said:



			as that is a very far fetched and scaremongering post.
		
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*Symptoms of a blown head gasket:*

There are a handful of symptoms a car with a blown head gasket will have. Some are more obvious than others.
*The first*, and possibly most notable, *warning sign* is an abnormally high engine temperature. If the thermostat on the dashboard is reading unusually high or the warning light comes on due to extremely high engine temperatures, this can indicate a couple different things. Abnormally high engine temperatures are a cause and a symptom of a blown head gasket. As stated above, high temperatures can damage a head gasket, but also once a head gasket has been damaged the engine temperature will immediately begin to rise. This takes us to our second symptom.
*Symptom number two* is low coolant levels. A faulty or damaged head gasket will leak coolant, so the coolant level indicator will be very low. It is important to check for pools of coolant that form when your vehicle is parked and to regularly check the coolant levels. Low coolant levels, as expected, will result in elevated engine temperature.
*The third sign* of a damaged head gasket is another obvious one. This symptom involves your vehicle not running smoothly. The engine will stutter, jolt, and / or stall. This will be especially likely to occur if the motor is cold. Older vehicles may have a tendency to exhibit similar behavior just because the engines are more weathered and donâ€™t run as efficiently if they are not warmed up, so try to check for the other symptoms listed here as supporting evidence.
*





The fourth symptom* is discolored oil. This discoloration is a result of coolant mixing with motor oil in the engine. The result will be a lighter than normal, almost milk-chocolate-like color, since the engine oil is dark and coolant is light in color.
*The final major symptom* to watch out for is a light-colored smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe. Almost gray or white in color, this can mean that the damaged head gasket has allowed coolant to leak into the combustion chamber and which is now burning.


So on the symptoms the OP has given us, it's exhibiting the 3rd & the 5th.  The 1st may not be immediately apparent on short runs, so I've asked about the 2nd & 4th symptoms; if they're are there then there's the problem, if they aren't then we can conclusively eliminate it.  So hardly scaremongering or far fetched.




DanFST said:



			What is your experience with cars?
		
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Sufficient to know that two of the five symptoms were present and to ask about the other more relevant ones.  I've also had this exact issue with one of my wife's cars; pig to start, ran rough until warm when the white smoke disappeared.  Cracked cylinder head.

The OP asked for advice, I've offered it; Fish is free to make what he will of it, but he also knows me well enough to know that if it's been offered it's been done with the best intentions.  I hope for his sake it isn't, but if it is the issue it needs looking at sooner rather than later.  Whether it is right or wrong, it was certainly more constructive than telling the OP to go & learn about cars himself. Incidentally, what are your qualifications to give advice on the subject?


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## c1973 (Dec 30, 2014)

Hmmmm.....lots of advice here, some conflicting too,........id say it's pretty obvious you need new wiper blades.  

I don't know owt about cars Tbf, but I'm sure my mate told me donkeys years ago that a little bit of water getting into the petrol mix when starting up would make the car judder a touch. No? 

As, I say I'm clueless myself, but thought I'd post just in case there was some truth in it. I'm sure the guys in the know would know better, but you never know.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			The OP asked for advice, I've offered it; Fish is free to make what he will of it, but he also knows me well enough to know that if it's been offered it's been done with the best intentions.  I hope for his sake it isn't, but if it is the issue it needs looking at sooner rather than later.  Whether it is right or wrong, it was certainly more constructive than telling the OP to go & learn about cars himself. Incidentally, what are your qualifications to give advice on the subject?
		
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I apologise if I came across a bit of an arse, it wasn't intentional. I did tell the OP to learn about cars himself. After I had given advice that it is most likely the battery, which was ignored as it would be "not cheap, and annoying if it wasn't correct". If you are going to ignore the advice, then the next step would be for the OP to learn how to perform the tests himself. And then failing that it needs ti be taken to a garage, which means this whole tread was pointless anyway! 

 However Car problem threads always have this sort of trend. Think of a car like the human body, if I had a chesty cough, I'd go to a doctor. I wouldn't go through the internet and search up the symptoms, as yes I may find the correct diagnosis, however I also notice that Lung cancer has similar symptoms, so I must have that. Especially if i was unable to perform any tests myself. So yes you are right, it could well be a problematic head gasket or a cracked cylinder head, as all the symptoms are correct. However it would be very very unlucky.  And much easier just to check the battery first given the time of year, temperature and the fact it is 12 years old. Next step failing that maybe to check the block. 

Sadly I have no formal qualifications to give advice on the subject. However cars are my true passion.
I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything. All maintained and built by myself. I also built my best friends Nissan in my garage over a winter, in which everything had to be modified and replaced to remove the 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo. And replace it with a Lexus V8.


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## richart (Dec 30, 2014)

DanFST said:



			I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything.
		
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 Skyline ?


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## sawtooth (Dec 30, 2014)

Someone mentioned a head gasket as a possibility.

Check for coolant loss and its sometimes possible to see oily residue in the reservoir.

Check oil dipstick for mayonnaise like residue. This could also appear underneath oil cap but a little could also be normal due to condensation.

If you suspect do a compression test, this is as easy as changing spark plugs  but you need a gauge of course.


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## JCW (Dec 30, 2014)

Cod weather always finds out if your battery is on the way out , Oil change is always good and needs to be done more often if journeys are short , Hope you sort it pal


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2014)

I know I said I had no more to add, however a couple if thoughts occurred to me;

Firstly, the head gasket symptoms 3 and 5 could just as easilybe caused by a single plug gapping issue, a problem with the crank sensor or a duff DIS pack. The only thing I would use to link it would be symptom 1, running ridiculously hot. 
Secondly, related to head gasket, the lumpy runnung wouldnt be confined to start up necessarily.

The main thought I had was more a question, Fish you said you hooked the leads up and turned over the Mrs car... was your engine running or not?

If your engine wasn't running, try it again (check the Micra won't start first obviously) but try with your car engine running.


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## D4RK1 (Dec 30, 2014)

richart said:



			Skyline ?
		
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I'd say more like a sunny.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			The main thought I had was more a question, Fish you said you hooked the leads up and turned over the Mrs car... was your engine running or not?

If your engine wasn't running, try it again (check the Micra won't start first obviously) but try with your car engine running.
		
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My engine was running when I hooked up the leads to the wifes car, her car then started immediately without any struggle that is usually associated with a flat or tired battery but was still lumpy & heavy for a minute or 2 until it then ticked over smoothly, surely if it was the wifes battery, this would now be eliminated because it has displayed the same symptoms whilst it was linked to my battery thus providing loads of charge? 

Also, don't forget, this car went through an MOT only last Monday and passed without many if any future recommendations!


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2014)

DanFST said:



			I apologise if I came across a bit of an arse, it wasn't intentional.* I did tell the OP to learn about cars himself. After I had given advice that it is most likely the battery, which was ignored as it would be "not cheap, and annoying if it wasn't correct". If you are going to ignore the advice, then the next step would be for the OP to learn how to perform the tests himself.* And then failing that it needs ti be taken to a garage, which means this whole tread was pointless anyway! 

 However Car problem threads always have this sort of trend. Think of a car like the human body, if I had a chesty cough, I'd go to a doctor. I wouldn't go through the internet and search up the symptoms, as yes I may find the correct diagnosis, however I also notice that Lung cancer has similar symptoms, so I must have that. Especially if i was unable to perform any tests myself. So yes you are right, it could well be a problematic head gasket or a cracked cylinder head, as all the symptoms are correct. However it would be very very unlucky.  And much easier just to check the battery first given the time of year, temperature and the fact it is 12 years old. Next step failing that maybe to check the block. 

Sadly I have no formal qualifications to give advice on the subject. However cars are my true passion.
I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything. All maintained and built by myself. I also built my best friends Nissan in my garage over a winter, in which everything had to be modified and replaced to remove the 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo. And replace it with a Lexus V8.
		
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That's very nicely twisted, you said to "change the battery anyway", my obvious response is, if it turned out not to be the battery, which you or anyone else at this time cannot guarantee, but it is a possibility, then it would be an expense not needed!  

With all the advice given, which I am grateful for, I am going to look and check over those things that I can do myself both visibly and physically, if I see any signs of anything described in these posts I can then look further into that area, if not, I can to a certain degree dismiss it and move on, anything I can do myself will be a lesser cost when it does eventually go to the garage next week for a service.  

So, all the things mentioned (advised) are a help and allow me to create a "tic list" to work through today, starting with the battery, plugs, coolant etc, I have not ignored or dismissed anything!


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## Region3 (Dec 31, 2014)

Mine ticks over like a diesel (it's not) for a minute or two when I first start it in the cold, then it's fine.

I just put it down to waiting for the oil to warm and circulate fully. It's always better after a service which reinforces my guess.


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## MadAdey (Dec 31, 2014)

Do Halfords still do the battery health checks for free? They check out the alternator and the diode pack. 

Basically the alternator feeds the ignition system once the engine has started, so I would be surprised if your problem is battery related. If it was ignition related and you had a misfire problem I would expect your ECL to be flashing like mine was the other day. I hooked up my OBD scanner and it said misfire in cylinder 7 & 8, pulled the plugs and they needed changing.

you can get a plug puller a a set of plugs for a few quid from Halfords, might be worth looking into.

A lot of god intentions on here, but start with the simple stuff that either costs nothing or very little. A lot of this advice is going far too in depth, for what could be something very simple. At the end of the day if your bedroom light isn't working your not going to pull the consumer unit apart, not until you have changed the bulb and checked the switch is working.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 31, 2014)

Fish said:



			My engine was running when I hooked up the leads to the wifes car, her car then started immediately without any struggle that is usually associated with a flat or tired battery but was still lumpy & heavy for a minute or 2 until it then ticked over smoothly, surely if it was the wifes battery, this would now be eliminated because it has displayed the same symptoms whilst it was linked to my battery thus providing loads of charge? 

Also, don't forget, this car went through an MOT only last Monday and passed without many if any future recommendations!
		
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Battery is not an MOT check so would not be factored in. As long as, at the time, the car started and ran long enough for an emmissions check it wouldnt get a second thought.
You obviously have it in your mind that the batery is not at fault and so makes me wonder why you asked for advice just to dismiss it.

Yes your car running would give it a higher charge which is why it started with no struggle, its the Micras reliance on its own battery thereafter that seems the issue.

Still, by all means squirt away with as much WD40 as you like, doubt it will help though.

It should not be overlooked that the car had died and needed to be jump started in the first place, if there was no battery issue that would not be the case in my experience.
A dodgy  spark plug or a cracked head would not drain a battery. Still, thats all the advice can give.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 31, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Do Halfords still do the battery health checks for free? They check out the alternator and the diode pack. 

*Basically the alternator feeds the ignition system once the engine has started*, so I would be surprised if your problem is battery related. If it was ignition related and you had a misfire problem I would expect your ECL to be flashing like mine was the other day. I hooked up my OBD scanner and it said misfire in cylinder 7 & 8, pulled the plugs and they needed changing.

you can get a plug puller a a set of plugs for a few quid from Halfords, might be worth looking into.

A lot of god intentions on here, but start with the simple stuff that either costs nothing or very little. A lot of this advice is going far too in depth, for what could be something very simple. At the end of the day if your bedroom light isn't working your not going to pull the consumer unit apart, not until you have changed the bulb and checked the switch is working.
		
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Not strictly true, there is no "alternator circuit" thats separate to the battery. If the battery is of low charge then the alternator feeds through the battery needing to bring the battery charge level up. Hence the need to run a car with a flat battery for a whle once started, to let the alternator feed the battery to increase its charge.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			Battery is not an MOT check so would not be factored in. As long as, at the time, the car started and ran long enough for an emmissions check it wouldnt get a second thought.
		
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I know that, but as the vehicle was dropped at his garage the night before and the keys posted, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to think if he had experienced or heard the same symptoms that we are now, it would have been flagged up!



GreiginFife said:



			You obviously have it in your mind that the batery is not at fault and so makes me wonder why you asked for advice just to dismiss it..
		
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I haven't, as I have clearly mentioned in my last post, it will get "ticked" off my check list, but people simply saying "it needs changing anyway" when it may not be the issue is not advice IMO!



GreiginFife said:



			Yes your car running would give it a higher charge which is why it started with no struggle, its the Micras reliance on its own battery thereafter that seems the issue..
		
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But it did still produce exactly the same symptoms (as I previously stated) with the lumpy running off my battery at that time when it was hooked up to mine!



GreiginFife said:



			Still, by all means squirt away with as much WD40 as you like, doubt it will help though.
		
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Thanks for your sarcasm, its duly noted, I have clearly stated in my last post that I will be working through a check list from the advice given!



GreiginFife said:



			It should not be overlooked that the car had died and needed to be jump started in the first place, if there was no battery issue that would not be the case in my experience.
		
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As per my 1st post, I didn't experience this and only went by what the wife said when she walked back in, I never tried it and just hooked it up when I returned and heard the lumpiness and heavy running for a minute or 2 before it ran smooth again.



GreiginFife said:



			A dodgy  spark plug or a cracked head would not drain a battery. Still, thats all the advice can give.
		
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Thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last night and still this morning we have possibly had the coldest night to date, her car was encrusted in ice, as I prepared my car to drop the wife off I thought I'd just try hers, and, it fired up 1st time!  The lumpiness/heavy running lasted 5-10 seconds at most and then ran and ticked over smooth! 

So I drove her to her work the 0.8 miles and took the car down the A45 for a run, initially in the side streets she felt sluggish and I felt I was going through the gears very quickly, I understand she's not like my 2.8l beast but she still didn't feel right, so I opened her up and as I got further down the A45 she felt easier at certain speeds and didn't feel forced, if you know what I mean?  After coming back off the A45 and back into the side streets, the overall power/engine felt more consistent and comfortable and I was not going through the gears as much as earlier.

As I have stated before, this car drives 0.8 miles to & fro to her works 5-days a week and marginally goes further on a Saturday, could all this be a combination of the severe drop in temperature and the car not getting a regular decent run?

I will still go through the basic check list I've compiled, which will include checking the battery, but, surely if it was the battery and with it not being charged in any way yesterday other than its normal 0.8 mile journey back home and with it being even colder last night, surely it would have been dead today?


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 31, 2014)

I could be wrong,but isn't the MOT just to check that the vechile is Safe to drive on the roads & emissions are ok? 
You wouldn't get a warning that it struggled to start or battery is on its way out. 
Maybe the mechanic would mention it but that's about it.


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## MadAdey (Dec 31, 2014)

GreiginFife said:



			Not strictly true, there is no "alternator circuit" thats separate to the battery. If the battery is of low charge then the alternator feeds through the battery needing to bring the battery charge level up. Hence the need to run a car with a flat battery for a whle once started, to let the alternator feed the battery to increase its charge.
		
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The alternator does not feed through the battery. The battery sits on the cars electrical system that is supplied from the alternator, hence why a car with a dodgy battery will run fine once it has been started. That electrical system will sit at around 14v and it is that, that recharges the battery. If you don't believe me disconnect your battery and jump start your car, it will run fine, you will just be buggered when you try and re start it.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 31, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			The alternator does not feed through the battery. The battery sits on the cars electrical system that is supplied from the alternator, hence why a car with a dodgy battery will run fine once it has been started. That electrical system will sit at around 14v and it is that, that recharges the battery. If you don't believe me disconnect your battery and jump start your car, it will run fine, you will just be buggered when you try and re start it.
		
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And you are of course correct which is why I said strictly not true. That system you speak of is a circuit, of which the battery is part, and why an engine wont start if it is removed, unless it is bridged to another. It is one circuit, not 2 separate ones was my point.

I have had many problem battery cases pass through my little back yard garage, many differing symptoms. But they all start from one place, the car beind dead.
No one has tried to cover off the fact that the car was, infact, dead and needed jumped in the first place. No spark plug fault or cracked head would flatten a battery. 

So assuming that Mrs Fish didnt leave a light jn ivernight or the stereo on, the battery died of its own accord. Doesnt sound like a healthy battery in that case...

Or do you know of something that would?


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			The alternator does not feed through the battery. The battery sits on the cars electrical system that is supplied from the alternator, hence why a car with a dodgy battery will run fine once it has been started. That electrical system will sit at around 14v and it is that, that recharges the battery. If you don't believe me disconnect your battery and jump start your car, it will run fine, you will just be buggered when you try and re start it.
		
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I believe that is the difference between having something wired in Parallel and having it wired in Series! Battery and Alternator are wired in parallel, so whichever is active/dominant is the one that feeds the rest of the circuit. So battery starts it, then alternator takes over and, as it's a slightly higher voltage, charges the battery.


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## MadAdey (Dec 31, 2014)

Hope the list you've made sorts it out. If I was going to try and sort this without wasting the cost of a new driver at the local garage it would go like this:

1) find somewhere that will do a free battery health check as that will check out the alternator and the diodes too.
2) check inside the oil cap and make sure there is no leak from the coolant system.
3) get a plug puller and take a look at them.
4) disconnect the HT leads at both ends and continuity check them, make sure there is not a high resistance on them causing a drop in voltage.


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## sev112 (Dec 31, 2014)

Fabulous thread - just like Ball flight laws etc but on cars 
Hope you get it sorted Fish.  

my 02 focus diesel has for the past 3 years been temperamental, since I took her up a glacier in Switzerland, but also since the mrs got a new small car and the focus does about 10 miles a week tops, which is no doubt the real issue,


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## MadAdey (Dec 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I believe that is the difference between having something wired in Parallel and having it wired in Series!
		
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Exactly, the battery in your car is wired parallel to the electrical system, not in series.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2014)

So I drove her to her work the 0.8 miles
		
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Buy her a bike


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## Slime (Dec 31, 2014)

Hi Fish, this would be my checklist for your garage..

1. Get the garage to do a voltage drop test on the battery just to rule that one out.

2. Check the coolant temperature sensor. If the car thinks the coolant is warm, when trying to start the car from cold, the fuel mixture will be too lean, making the car hard to start and lumpy until warm ........................ if that makes sense.

3. Get the garage to inspect the throttle body/mass air flow meter. (Common Micra problem). They can get choked up with lots of short runs but usually, when faulting, run better when cold than when warm. If that's the issue, get one on-line as Nissan charge a fortune for them!

4. Check the distributor, they are prone to failure!


I honestly don't think it's the battery, but easy to rule out with a drop test, and an oil and filter change is very strongly advised, particularly considering it's life style.

Let us know how you get on,


*Slime*.

P.S. Just had an oil/filter change on my Freelander for the first time in about four years ............... quelle difference!
It's quicker, runs cleaner, runs cooler and is more economical!


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## CliveW (Dec 31, 2014)

I am currently watching a thread about curing a slice on Pistonheads... Strange how many "experts" are on there too!


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## DanFST (Dec 31, 2014)

D4RK1 said:



			I'd say more like a sunny.
		
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richart said:



			Skyline ?
		
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Actually a Silvia! Very close tho.


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## DanFST (Jan 7, 2015)

Was the cause found?


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## Fish (Jan 7, 2015)

Its not gone in yet but is working and starting fine, even after not being used for over 2-days, no sign of the lumpyness since I gave it a god run down the A45 for a few miles either!


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## philly169 (Jan 7, 2015)

I had issues with my battery over xmas, really struggled to start but once up it was fine. Cold weather didn't help. Went to Halfrauds for a new battery and for them to fit it but they couldn't undo the nut so wouldn't do it.

In the end I did it myself, but was an issue but after an hour and a half battle I got it out. New battery in and it starts straight away.


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