# Let's Moan About Refs Yet Again



## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

I thought I would be the one to start this thread......

Here we go again, a referee getting a big decision wrong and it going in favour of one of the top teams. That was a goal and Newcastle have been robbed. People say it will even itself out over the season, I am yet to be convinced. In recent weeks they have had perfectly good goals by opposing teams disallowed in games that they where not playing overly well in and could have lost if the goals had been given.

6 points that they may be picking up thanks to referees.


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## Dodger (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I thought I would be the one to start this thread......

Here we go again, a referee getting a big decision wrong and it going in favour of one of the top teams. That was a goal and Newcastle have been robbed. People say it will even itself out over the season, I am yet to be convinced. In recent weeks they have had perfectly good goals by opposing teams disallowed in games that they where not playing overly well in and could have lost if the goals had been given.

6 points that they may be picking up thanks to referees.
		
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You missed off that he also failed to produce 2 red cards for players wearing black and white....


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

Dodger said:



			You missed off that he also failed to produce 2 red cards for players wearing black and white....
		
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Exactly........ How many decisions did he get wrong. looks like becoming a familiar thing at the moment. I still think that FIFA need to simplify the rules, bit more like the old days that I feel was a little bit less open to personal interpretation.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 12, 2014)

Dodger said:



			You missed off that he also failed to produce 2 red cards for players wearing black and white....
		
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Yep - only one player on his way to hospital. Plus Joe Hart was waiting for the off side player to touch the ball so he was intefering with play.

Swings and roundabouts - you get some, you don't get others and I'm sick of the constant criticism and intimidation of referees. Not helped in their role by the fact that a good number of the 22 players on the pitch are usually cheats.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Exactly........ How many decisions did he get wrong. looks like becoming a familiar thing at the moment. I still think that FIFA need to simplify the rules, bit more like the old days that I feel was a little bit less open to personal interpretation.
		
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Now I'm confused - thought his poor decision making was favouring one of the top teams??


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Exactly........ How many decisions did he get wrong. looks like becoming a familiar thing at the moment. I still think that FIFA need to simplify the rules, bit more like the old days that I feel was a little bit less open to personal interpretation.
		
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I think Dodger was trying to point out that the ref also got game changing decisions wrong  in favour of the lesser team . ( I agree)


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## Dodger (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Exactly........ How many decisions did he get wrong. looks like becoming a familiar thing at the moment. I still think that FIFA need to simplify the rules, bit more like the old days that I feel was a little bit less open to personal interpretation.
		
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But in you OP you state that Newcastle been robbed.

Maybe with the goal but they should have been a man down with the majority of the 2nd half to go and a further man down a bit later.

Human beings make mistakes.

Tough crap.


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Yep - only one player on his way to hospital. Plus Joe Hart was waiting for the off side player to touch the ball so he was intefering with play.
		
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I still think that the new offside rules are a joke. In the old days he is clearly offside, no arguing at all. What you have just highlighted is that the ref has to make a call if the player was causing an interference to Hart or not, only Hart knows the answer to that.

I do agree that Refs get a lot of criticism and all the TV cameras do not help that. But I think that the rules and how they have to implement them do not help either. Can we not just change the rules so that if a player is offside then he is offside, none of this having to decide if he was intefeering or trying to gain an advantage or not.


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Now I'm confused - thought his poor decision making was favouring one of the top teams??
		
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Nearly as confusing as trying to Ref a Premier LEague match. I did not quite make my point clear in response to your post. If they get given the goal at that point, they might have been able to hold out for a point even after getting players sent off. 

If Newcastle get given the goal and do not get the players sent off then they could have won the match playing the way they did. So Man City get no points. If they get given the goal and get the players sent off then Man City might still have only walked out with 1 point. I just feel that so many games in the last few weeks have been influenced in a big way by the ref getting decisions wrong. It is not 1 call a match it seems to be 3 or 4.


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## Dodger (Jan 12, 2014)

If my Auntie had a penis.....

I kinda hear you.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 12, 2014)

I just hope no controversial decisions go against Liverpool today or we'll end up with a 400 post thread about how hard done by they are


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I just hope no controversial decisions go against Liverpool today or we'll end up with a 400 post thread about how hard done by they are

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You certainly will, I am sat infront of my laptop watching the game..........

Nice little deflection though for the opener...........:thup:


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

Dodger said:



			If my Auntie had a penis.....

I kinda hear you.

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You get the point of my post then, not so much a go at refs rather than the impact these decisions have on the overall season. Look at West Ham, they play Newcastle next week. If Newcastle get the red cards then West Ham are playing a team without a couple of key players.

The red card decisions do not just influence the game they are in but also games that follow.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Nearly as confusing as trying to Ref a Premier LEague match. I did not quite make my point clear in response to your post. If they get given the goal at that point, they might have been able to hold out for a point even after getting players sent off. 

If Newcastle get given the goal and do not get the players sent off then they could have won the match playing the way they did. So Man City get no points. If they get given the goal and get the players sent off then Man City might still have only walked out with 1 point. I just feel that so many games in the last few weeks have been influenced in a big way by the ref getting decisions wrong. It is not 1 call a match it seems to be 3 or 4.
		
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But you implied in your OP that City were getting all the decisions. Didn't look that way to me.


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## stevie_r (Jan 12, 2014)

Can I just point out the refs didnt write the offside rule, they are there to attempt to apply it.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 12, 2014)

Well I'm a City fan who's always had a soft spot for Newcastle BUT Kabaye should have gone for a 2nd or even 3rd yellow and the guy with the double barrelled name hacked Nasri down with an attempt to hurt him - no other way of looking at that offence imo.


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## guest100718 (Jan 12, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I just hope no controversial decisions go against Liverpool today or we'll end up with a 400 post thread about how hard done by they are

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but they always are arent they?


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## fundy (Jan 12, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I just hope no controversial decisions go against Liverpool today or we'll end up with a 400 post thread about how hard done by they are

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lol


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## JT77 (Jan 12, 2014)

its time.refs had a helping hand. tmo? like rugby?  maybe. 
as for the goal it should have stood. two red cards? one maybe,  cabaye could have had two yellows but would not have had one if the goal was given. 
think mbiwa made a very silly tackle I think he was trying to take him down not injure him but I dont think anyone would have complained if it was red. from the refs view I dont think it looks as bad as on replay.


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## cookelad (Jan 12, 2014)

Think the ref didn't send cabaye off or the double barrel guy because he wanted to get safely out of the stadium after that howler of a decision. 

I don't understand, you've got a 'fourth official' stood on the sideline in communication with the linesmen and ref why the heck can't (s)he be sat in front of a tv monitor watching the match so that when this sort and other incidents happen he can sky+ live rewind and tell the ref straight away.

As I type another wrong decision that my above suggestion would stop gifts Liverpool a penalty!


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

cookelad said:



			As I type another wrong decision that my above suggestion would stop gifts Liverpool a penalty!
		
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Go to agree, it was a bif soft. Was it or wasn't it, not too sure. One of those decisions that can go either way. A player as small as Sterling is always going to go down when a defender goes into him, he is not big enough to stay up.


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

stevie_r said:



			Can I just point out the refs didnt write the offside rule, they are there to attempt to apply it.
		
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This is sort of the point that I was going to get to with the thread. They are asked to implement rules that are open to too much personal interpretation and make that decision on the spot without much time to think about it, or the advantage of replays.

Just out of curiosity. Who on here is a qualified ref that has been doing it for long enough that they have done it with the older, more simple rules IMO.


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## Captainron (Jan 12, 2014)

Football needs to get TV refs involved in the game like they do in rugby.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 12, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			A player as small as Sterling is always going to go down when a defender goes into him, he is not big enough to stay up.
		
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Georgie Best managed perfectly well back in the day when refs were less easily duped... Also you were awarded penalties then rather than seek to win 'em...


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			Georgie Best managed perfectly well back in the day when refs were less easily duped... Also you were awarded penalties then rather than seek to win 'em...
		
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Not really looking at getting into an argument about players maybe going over too easy. That is not what this thread is about. I am talking more about refs getting obvious decisions wrong, that penalty is one of those that could go either way.

This is born out of a discussion at work the other day. My mate is working his way up the ref ladder and he was saying that people need to lay of the ref a bit more and accept that it is difficult to get every decision correct. He was saying that at times you have to make a call and it may involve a personal interpretation of the rule book. Problem is when a rule is not black and white and is open to interpretation there is a risk that it will be wrong.


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## cookelad (Jan 12, 2014)

Problem is consistency, and you're never going to get that when the refs have the make an instant decision on something they only get to see once especially when the rule is a bit grey!

I'd like to see some stats on how many decisions the refs get correct against those that they get incorrect, and I wouldn't bet against them getting more right than wrong problem being we amateur observers only remember those they get wrong!


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Problem is consistency, and you're never going to get that when the refs have the make an instant decision on something they only get to see once especially when the rule is a bit grey!

I'd like to see some stats on how many decisions the refs get correct against those that they get incorrect, and I wouldn't bet against them getting more right than wrong problem being we amateur observers only remember those they get wrong!
		
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They may make 100 decisions a game, but a lot of those are for things like throw ins that are not difficult to make. They still get some of them wrong though. But normally a ref may have to make 2 or 3 big decisions a game that can have a major influence on not just that game but games to follow. They are the ones we all moan about, but then some of those decisions have not been easy to make, due to to having to make a personal interpretation on the spur of the moment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2014)

Poor referring again this weekend - regardless if we got the benefit or not it's still poor. It wasn't a penalty for us - got that wrong and the ref in the Newcastle is awful


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Poor referring again this weekend - regardless if we got the benefit or not it's still poor. It wasn't a penalty for us - got that wrong and the ref in the Newcastle is awful
		
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Watch those splinters up your arse Phil...............LOL. The penalty is one of those decisions that can go either way, was there contact....YES, was it enough to warrant a penalty.....NO. With being in the position of a couple of replays we know it was a bit fortunate, but the ref has to make a big call from about 50 yards away, easy to get wrong. If he was 10 yards away though, he would not get my sympathy on giving the penalty.

But on a positive note, nice to see Sturridge back and have him setup Suarez, then Suarez returns the favour......:whoo:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2014)

I think the standard of the PL referees this season has gone downhill. Not sure if that is down to being over scrutinised both by their own professional body or the press and managers. Either way they seem to be making too many bad decisions, missing too much and generally making it a lottery for fans and players alike


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 12, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think the standard of the PL referees this season has gone downhill. Not sure if that is down to being over scrutinised both by their own professional body or the press and managers. Either way they seem to be making too many bad decisions, missing too much and generally making it a lottery for fans and players alike
		
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+1.


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## chrisd (Jan 12, 2014)

I've been to most of the home games at Selhurst Park this season and the standard of refereeing is just as poor as it was when we last in the Premiership!

We see things 80 yards away and 3 full time officials either don't see them or choose not to!


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## guest100718 (Jan 12, 2014)

It cant  be easy being a ref, trying to work out in a split second whats real vs the usual diving and cheating and thats just Suarez!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			It cant  be easy being a ref, trying to work out in a split second whats real vs the usual diving and cheating and thats just Suarez!
		
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Please check the amount of bookings given out to players this season for diving and try to spot Suarez in the list


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2014)

I use to referee on a Sunday morning. That was interesting especially with no linesmen. You just do your best to apply the laws and make decisions on what you see. The difference is we have no technology, no 4th official and no help. Despite this they still can't get it right as often as they should. Its even more laughable in Europe with the extra officials on the goal line. In the Europa League with Fulham I never saw them make a single decision or assist the referee in any way


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## guest100718 (Jan 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please check the amount of bookings given out to players this season for diving and try to spot Suarez in the list
		
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Lol im not interested in one of your petty arguments. Youll have to whine to the mods about someone else being mean to you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Lol im not interested in one of your petty arguments. Youll have to whine to the mods about someone else being mean to you.
		
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What are you talking about ? 

It's not petty arguments it's trying to ensure that you have the full facts when making posts 

You are talking about diving and Suarez yet he has been booked for diving where as plenty other players have this season

So if you are going to highlight diving ( which is a good thing ) - then please ensure you highlight the correct players who have actually been punished for diving as opposed to highlighting someone who hasn't


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## guest100718 (Jan 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What are you talking about ? 

It's not petty arguments it's trying to ensure that you have the full facts when making posts 

You are talking about diving and Suarez yet he has been booked for diving where as plenty other players have this season

So if you are going to highlight diving ( which is a good thing ) - then please ensure you highlight the correct players who have actually been punished for diving as opposed to highlighting someone who hasn't
		
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Like I said , not interested.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2014)

The please don't blurt out statements if you are unwilling to be challenged on them :thup:


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## In_The_Rough (Jan 12, 2014)

Only just seen the incident on MOTD2 and it was a really bad decision to disallow the goal. Have to say though it couldn't have to happened to a better bloke as I cannot stand Pardew at all, displaying his usual disgraceful behaviour on the touchline and picking a fight with Pellegrini.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Its even more laughable in Europe with the extra officials on the goal line. In the Europa League with Fulham I never saw them make a single decision or assist the referee in any way
		
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Aye - but they crouch attentively - paying close attention to goodness knows what as they never seem to spot anything or contribute to the refereeing of the game.  But the crouching is good - clearly there is a HNCP (Historic Natural Crouching Position)


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## richart (Jan 12, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Plus Joe Hart was waiting for the off side player to touch the ball so he was intefering with play.
		
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Joe Hart had no chance, and he was not waiting for another player to touch the shot. Keepers will dive if they have a chance for the original shot, which is why the are so often wrong footed by a deflection. In this case it was past him before he could move, and the off side players were not interfering/obscuring his view. In my opinion.


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## MadAdey (Jan 12, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think the standard of the PL referees this season has gone downhill. Not sure if that is down to being over scrutinised both by their own professional body or the press and managers. Either way they seem to be making too many bad decisions, missing too much and generally making it a lottery for fans and players alike
		
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It does seem to be getting worse. When a human being is involved then mistakes will happen. Decisions like the Sterling penalty have always been there since time began. Fast break away and the poor old ref is left making a decision from 50 yards away because of this. There was contact, and it wasn't a dive, but if the ref could have been closer I do not think he would have given it. But it is not a decision like this one that are annoying (even though I am a Liverpool fan and stoke fans may disagree) it is the ones where they are close to the incident and have a good view of it and still appear to get it wrong, or bottle it, which ever way you look at it. Seems to be a far too familar theme around football fans at the moment week after week.

Is it that refereeing is getting worse? I just think that the rules at times are to blame and the close scrutiny they get from all the TV cameras really does not help them.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What are you talking about ? 

It's not petty arguments it's trying to ensure that you have the full facts when making posts 

You are talking about diving and Suarez yet he has been booked for diving where as plenty other players have this season

So if you are going to highlight diving ( which is a good thing ) - then please ensure you highlight the correct players who have actually been punished for diving as opposed to highlighting someone who hasn't
		
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Just because he hasn't been booked doesn't mean he hasn't done it. How often do we see players take a dive & not get punished?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2014)

You can point out his dives this season if you wish

People can try and crucify Suarez but currently this season he is letting his football do the talking

The incidents where he is involved his season are ones where he has been clattered and getting nothing ( with some believing this to be right ). 

Thankfully the players actually diving currently are getting punished.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can point out his dives this season if you wish

People can try and crucify Suarez but currently this season he is letting his football do the talking

The incidents where he is involved his season are ones where he has been clattered and getting nothing ( with some believing this to be right ). 

Thankfully the players actually diving currently are getting punished.
		
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Maybe he's a reformed character.
He'll still be remembered for biting 2 players,racially abusing 1,punching 1,blatant handball V Ghana tho. Shame as he is a quality player.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2014)

Depends on who is remembering and his bitter they are and if they don't want to let things drop

I'm remembering him for currently bring one of the best players in the world and a joy to watch. He has served his punishments for things he has done in the past and maybe it's time to move on.


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## chrisd (Jan 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Depends on who is remembering and his bitter they are and if they don't want to let things drop

I'm remembering him for currently bring one of the best players in the world and a joy to watch. He has served his punishments for things he has done in the past and maybe it's time to move on.
		
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There arn't many true fans of football on this forum who wouldn't want him in their team!

Any chance of him coming to Crystal Palace in the transfer window?  :whoo:


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Depends on who is remembering and his bitter they are and if they don't want to let things drop

I'm remembering him for currently bring one of the best players in the world and a joy to watch. He has served his punishments for things he has done in the past and maybe it's time to move on.
		
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Obviously because your a Liverpool fan.
Joey Barton is probably a reformed character aswell


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2014)

As is John Terry I suppose 

But you don't see people constantly going on about his past history.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As is John Terry I suppose 

But you don't see people constantly going on about his past history.
		
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Pahahahahahahahaha not much


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## MadAdey (Jan 13, 2014)

Why does every football thread have to turn into a personal onslaught of Suarez, no footballer in particular has any relevance to this thread. I wanted to get a discussion going on what is happening with the officials in these games, not if certain players are cheating.

What is it then?

Too much close scrutiny from TV cams highlighting something that has always been there, we have just never had chance to see it like this?
The rules are that open to personal interpretation at times and then other rules have it written in black and white, but the ref then goes against it?
Are the assistant Refs having enough input into decisions?
Do we need video replays because the game is so fast they cant keep up at times?
Or is it just something as simple as the Ref is bottling it in big games and getting it all wrong?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2014)

richart said:



			Joe Hart had no chance, and he was not waiting for another player to touch the shot. Keepers will dive if they have a chance for the original shot, which is why the are so often wrong footed by a deflection. In this case it was past him before he could move, and the off side players were not interfering/obscuring his view. In my opinion.

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As it happens I think Hart was completely distracted by the presence of the player - you could see that he was looking at him and seemed almost transfixed to the spot expecting him to do something - to the extent that he didn't move to try and save the shot.  Besides the player had to do a wee body swerve for the ball to not hit him - how could he not be involved in play if the ball is going to hit him if he doesn't move.


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## MadAdey (Jan 13, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As it happens I think Hart was completely distracted by the presence of the player - you could see that he was looking at him and seemed almost transfixed to the spot expecting him to do something - to the extent that he didn't move to try and save the shot.  Besides the player had to do a wee body swerve for the ball to not hit him - how could he not be involved in play if the ball is going to hit him if he doesn't move.
		
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I think you have pretty much summed up the craziness of the modern offside rule. In the old days that was offside, absolutely no debating it at all. Nowadays and offside is not always that clear cut because of the rules.


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## richart (Jan 13, 2014)

If he had been standing in front of the keeper, blocking his vision of the ball then I would agree, but he wasn't so not interfering as far as I am concerned. Personally think he had made no difference to the outcome of the shot, two keepers wouldn't have got close, so not interfering.

Hart could have gone for the ball once he saw it through the ruck of onside players but by then he would not have got within ten feet of the ball. Players are for ever standing in an offside position, but keepers don't hold there dive until they see if it deflects off one. If a keeper is affected by an offside player I agree with you, but in this case I don't think he was. It was an unstoppable shot. 

Just my opinion of course.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 13, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As it happens I think Hart was completely distracted by the presence of the player - you could see that he was looking at him and seemed almost transfixed to the spot expecting him to do something - to the extent that he didn't move to try and save the shot.  Besides the player had to do a wee body swerve for the ball to not hit him - how could he not be involved in play if the ball is going to hit him if he doesn't move.
		
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That's how I saw it but only Joe knows for sure...he seemed to be waiting for the ball to deflect off the off-side player.


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## MadAdey (Jan 13, 2014)

The new offside rule does bring up some great talking points, but who would prefer to see it go back to the 80's rules that where a lot more cut and dry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2014)

richart said:



			If he had been standing in front of the keeper, blocking his vision of the ball then I would agree, but he wasn't so not interfering as far as I am concerned. Personally think he had made no difference to the outcome of the shot, two keepers wouldn't have got close, so not interfering.

Hart could have gone for the ball once he saw it through the ruck of onside players but by then he would not have got within ten feet of the ball. Players are for ever standing in an offside position, but keepers don't hold there dive until they see if it deflects off one. If a keeper is affected by an offside player I agree with you, but in this case I don't think he was. It was an unstoppable shot. 

Just my opinion of course.
		
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Maybe - but as an ex-goalie - and not a bad one at that - when the ball is coming in I didn't just watch the ball - my looking and vision field of view is taking in all those who may become involved - for instance in deflecting the shot or following up on a save.  You don't just watch the ball.  And someone standing just a few yards from me is most certainly at the very forefront of my thinking - conscious and subconscious - whether I commit myself to a dive , even a move, or hold my ground etc. 

And in any description of what happened will be included that player moved his hips so the ball doesn't hit him - so his very actions *resulted *in the ball continuing in the direction it was going.


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## Wabinez (Jan 13, 2014)

Surely the easiest thing for people who are complaining is to start refereeing.  Do the course, learn the laws of association football (all 17 of them) and get out on a saturday and sunday morning to officiate in games.  I've done it.  It's hard work.  A LOT harder than people believe it is. 

Managers make mistakes. Players make mistakes. Officials make mistakes.  TV refs are not the answer, in my opinion. Goal-line technology is great, but I think that is as far as it should go.


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## richart (Jan 13, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - but as an ex-goalie - and not a bad one at that - when the ball is coming in I didn't just watch the ball - my looking and vision field of view is taking in all those who may become involved - for instance in deflecting the shot or following up on a save.  You don't just watch the ball.  And someone standing just a few yards from me is most certainly at the very forefront of my thinking - conscious and subconscious - whether I commit myself to a dive , even a move, or hold my ground etc. 

And in any description of what happened will be included that player moved his hips so the ball doesn't hit him - so his very actions *resulted *in the ball continuing in the direction it was going.
		
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Ball skimmed three City defenders on the way through, all blocking Harts view of the ball. He didn't see it until way to late. With shots from distance keepers move to save the original shot, they don't tend to wait for a deflection from someone a few yards out. Hence how many deflected goals we get. If you waited for a deflection you would have no time to save a shot that wasn't deflected. Tiote's shot was going like a rocket, not a slow dribbler that you could react to.

I personally think that the Newcastle player that swerved the ball made no difference to the outcome of the shot. Hart would never have saved it as his view was blocked by about ten players. Even if he had a clear view he would have struggled to get near the shot.

I can understand what you are saying about goalkeepers watching players close to them, if it is an in swinging cross or shot from out wide, hence why so many goals are scored with no one getting a touch, but this was a rocket of a shot, and I believe all goalkeepers would dive for the ball, and not hold back thinking there would be a deflection.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 13, 2014)

I've just watched this play to see what all the fuss is about.  There are about three Newcastle players offside and one is so close to the ball going past him he is definitely interferring with play.  So it is right to disallow it.    

So now deal with these bleating moaning complaining managers who simply lay into a referee because he is there and cannot answer back.  And none of these slap on the wrist fines that the club pays anyway.   Three game bans and not just from the sideline.  Ban them from the grounds and see if the situation improves.


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## richart (Jan 13, 2014)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I've just watched this play to see what all the fuss is about.  There are about three Newcastle players offside and one is so close to the ball going past him he is definitely interferring with play.  So it is right to disallow it.    

So now deal with these bleating moaning complaining managers who simply lay into a referee because he is there and cannot answer back.  And none of these slap on the wrist fines that the club pays anyway.   Three game bans and not just from the sideline.  Ban them from the grounds and see if the situation improves.
		
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Interfering with play is defined as preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball. Who exactly is the offside player preventing from playing the ball ? Hart is yards away and would have to be superman to reach it. Mark Halsey thinks it was a good goal, and as a ref you would hope he knows the rules.

Of course under the old offside rules which most of us older forumers played under it was offside, but under the new rules it all comes down to is the player interfering with Hart. I say no, others disagree. All part of an active forum.:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2014)

This on clarifying the rule

While standing in an offside position there are three things that a player cannot do:

1...

2. Interfere with an opponent â€“ this means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball. For example, by clearly obstructing the goalkeeperâ€™s line of vision or movement. OR. Making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent. However, in this particular scenario the opponent must be reasonably close to the play so that blocking, deceiving or distracting makes a difference to the active play.

Surely the clause after the OR in 2. above shows that the decision was appropriate.


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## richart (Jan 13, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This on clarifying the rule

While standing in an offside position there are three things that a player cannot do:

1...

2. Interfere with an opponent â€“ this means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball. For example, by clearly obstructing the goalkeeperâ€™s line of vision or movement. OR. Making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent. However, in this particular scenario the opponent must be reasonably close to the play so that blocking, deceiving or distracting makes a difference to the active play.

Surely the clause after the OR in 2. above shows that the decision was appropriate.
		
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When does the player obstruct Hart's line of vision ? He can see the ball all the way once it comes through the ruck of players. The movement he makes to avoid the ball is so late and Hart is no where near the ball. Are you saying that without the offside player Hart would have saved or even got close  to the ball ?  Just because you are close to the ball doesn't mean you are offside. In my opinion the keeper would have got no where near and so the goal should have stood.:ears:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2014)

richart said:



			When does the player obstruct Hart's line of vision ? He can see the ball all the way once it comes through the ruck of players. The movement he makes to avoid the ball is so late and Hart is no where near the ball. Are you saying that without the offside player Hart would have saved or even got close  to the ball ?  Just because you are close to the ball doesn't mean you are offside. In my opinion the keeper would have got no where near and so the goal should have stood.:ears:
		
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Surely it is this bit that the ref is applying




*Making a gesture or movement* which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or *distracts *an opponent.  However, in this particular scenario the opponent must be *reasonably close to the play* so that blocking, deceiving or *distracting **makes a difference *to the active play.
		
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And that's what a couple of newspaper columnists have pointed out - that and the fact that it is all...




			in the opinion of the referee
		
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Anyway Newcastle lost and they lost it mentally as well - and Samir Nasri for one ends up suffering for that - out for eight weeks as a result of a rather spiteful swipe after the ball had gone.

Trust that your track just down the road is draining well


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## MadAdey (Jan 13, 2014)

Seeing what both you and rich are writing, you are highlighting the big problem with the offside rule. It is so open to intepretation and how one sees a situation is seen different by another, the poor old ref only gets one look at it too.


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## chrisd (Jan 13, 2014)

I preferred it with the old off side rule when they said that they would give any doubt to the attacker, that was oh so much easier to play to and officiate


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## MadAdey (Jan 13, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I preferred it with the old off side rule when they said that they would give any doubt to the attacker, that was oh so much easier to play to and officiate
		
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None of this was the player in the 1st or 2nd phase of play and was he causing an obstruction either directly or indirectly to an opponent along with all the other stuff they have wrote into the offside rules. 

I remember someone once saying that any player that is on the pitch should be looking to gain an advantage and influence the play because if he isn't he should not be out there.


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## richart (Jan 13, 2014)

Alan Wiley has just said on Five Live that referee made a mistake. He disallowed the goal because he thought player was in front of Joe Hart, and interfering with line of sight. Player is actually to the side and so not interfering. The referee has also been stood down for next round of premier league games.:mmm:

Good debate and my final word.

SILH, Blackmoor is fine, probably best draining course in the area. We spent a fortune on drainage about 10 years ago, drainage ditches on nearly every hole. Greens are nearly all raised so no problems. One of the reasons I joined as you can play nearly all year round on a firm course.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2014)

The ref should be permanently stood down - awful ref

He is Mr Beachball !!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 13, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			None of this was the player in the 1st or 2nd phase of play and was he causing an obstruction either directly or indirectly to an opponent along with all the other stuff they have wrote into the offside rules. 

*I remember someone once saying that any player that is on the pitch should be looking to gain an advantage and influence the play because if he isn't he should not be out there.*

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I think you'll find that was Brian Clough.

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/lists/160118/top-30-classically-pithy-brian-clough-quotes.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2014)

richart said:



			SILH, Blackmoor is fine, probably best draining course in the area. We spent a fortune on drainage about 10 years ago, drainage ditches on nearly every hole. Greens are nearly all raised so no problems. One of the reasons I joined as you can play nearly all year round on a firm course.
		
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Our greens have drained brilliantly (Sheldon banding done 10yrs ago really doing it's job) - but we couldn't get to 14, 17 and 18 greens as they had lakes in front of 14 and 17 due to water backing up from North Downs Way and 18 - not sure where the lake came from - very frustrating.  Cleared within a couple of days mind but still very wet underfoot.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 18, 2014)

And to start this weekend, according to Chris Foy this wasn't a foul. :angry:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

Ouch that's awful 

Clear foul and yellow card

Watched a little bit of the game and looked a good game


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2014)

I watched it live on telly and that was a very difficult one for the ref to spot.

Strange game.....Sunderland supporters were leaving after 25 mins.
I can't say I blamed them.

Luke Shaw looks promising.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2014)

Looks like the ref was busy in Perth today when Hogans St Johnstone played my Hearts.
Three sent off and a last minute equaliser for 10 man Hearts to make it 3-3.
Proper mens fitba.


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## In_The_Rough (Jan 18, 2014)

Luke Shaw is a bit more than promising. Next England Left back in waiting and big money move to Man City or Chelsea possibly Liverpool


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## USER1999 (Jan 18, 2014)

In_The_Rough said:



			Luke Shaw is a bit more than promising. Next England Left back in waiting and big money move to Man City or Chelsea possibly Liverpool
		
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England's left back in waiting is Kieron Gibbs. For sure.


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## In_The_Rough (Jan 18, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			England's left back in waiting is Kieron Gibbs. For sure.
		
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Hopefully not Shaw is miles better and probably not as injury prone either


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			And to start this weekend, according to Chris Foy this wasn't a foul. :angry:

View attachment 8832

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Heard on the radio that this was after he got the ball ? Is it Rameirez ?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			England's left back in waiting is Kieron Gibbs. For sure.
		
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Giibbs will miss have to keep the boat. After or by brazil Baines will be no 1. I reckon he'll still be for the euros but Shaw will take over after that.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Heard on the radio that this was after he got the ball ? Is it Rameirez ?
		
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Yes it Ramirez. Brown got a slight touch on the ball but only very slight. But that doesn't matter, the rules say a reckless flying challenge from behind is a red card offence, end of story. Quite what the ref was thinking I hjave no idea. What makes it worse is that Dejan Lovren was also stretchered off after defending the clearance from that incident. Had the ref stopped the game as he should our best centre back wouldn't have got injured as well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			Yes it Ramirez. Brown got a slight touch on the ball but only very slight. But that doesn't matter, the rules say a reckless flying challenge from behind is a red card offence, end of story. Quite what the ref was thinking I hjave no idea. What makes it worse is that Dejan Lovren was also stretchered off after defending the clearance from that incident. Had the ref stopped the game as he should our best centre back wouldn't have got injured as well.
		
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Saw it this morning and it looked from the side and he got the ball then the man after ? Unless I'm thinking of another challenge ?


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Just a quick one for anyone watching the spurs game. I know they never get given, but surely Bony should have had a penalty for that push. 

Anyone who's not watching it, corner comes in, Dawson is caught flat footed and Bony gets up above him to head the ball. Dawson takes takes 2 hands and clearly shoves him so he does not get his head on it. Referee did have a very very good view of it, is it not about time they started to give these as it is becoming a regular thing now for defenders to shove forwards so they can't get a head on the ball and to be honest it is starting to get on my nerves that outside of the box they will always give these.

BTW, this is not a dig at the ref involved, but it just seems that this is acceptable in modern day football


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Just a quick one for anyone watching the spurs game. I know they never get given, but surely Bony should have had a penalty for that push. 

Anyone who's not watching it, corner comes in, Dawson is caught flat footed and Bony gets up above him to head the ball. Dawson takes takes 2 hands and clearly shoves him so he does not get his head on it. Referee did have a very very good view of it, is it not about time they started to give these as it is becoming a regular thing now for defenders to shove forwards so they can't get a head on the ball and to be honest it is starting to get on my nerves that outside of the box they will always give these.

BTW, this is not a dig at the ref involved, but it just seems that this is acceptable in modern day football
		
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Totally agree, I can accept a bit of hassle and tussle. But two hands shoving in the back is a pen all day long. Ref had a view clear as day too!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Just a quick one for anyone watching the spurs game. I know they never get given, but surely Bony should have had a penalty for that push. 

Anyone who's not watching it, corner comes in, Dawson is caught flat footed and Bony gets up above him to head the ball. Dawson takes takes 2 hands and clearly shoves him so he does not get his head on it. Referee did have a very very good view of it, is it not about time they started to give these as it is becoming a regular thing now for defenders to shove forwards so they can't get a head on the ball and to be honest it is starting to get on my nerves that outside of the box they will always give these.

BTW, this is not a dig at the ref involved, but it just seems that this is acceptable in modern day football
		
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It's a clear penalty - if that had happened outside the box then a foul is given 

I still dint know how Skrtel gets away with his shirt pulling - it's a clear foul in the box so should be a pen


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's a clear penalty - if that had happened outside the box then a foul is given 

I still dint know how Skrtel gets away with his shirt pulling - it's a clear foul in the box so should be a pen
		
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i didn't want to mention Skrtel, as I do not like to bad mouth my beloved LFC, but he is one of the biggest culprits for this type of defending.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

Luiz has just taken out Hazard and Phil Dowd gave Hazard a free kick :lol: 

Quite funny to watch because it looked like he was about to book someone for it


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## Slime (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Just a quick one for anyone watching the spurs game. I know they never get given, but *surely Bony should have had a penalty for that push. *


BTW, this is not a dig at the ref involved, but it just seems that this is acceptable in modern day football
		
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As blatant as you can get! Oh, and how did Welbeck not get one this afternoon? Another no-brainer.



Liverpoolphil said:



*Luiz* has just taken out Hazard and Phil Dowd gave Hazard a free kick :lol: 
Quite funny to watch because it looked like he was about to book someone for it
		
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It was a blatant attempt to bodycheck Jones, which he did, and made minimal contact on Hazard, but Hazard saw it coming so dived out of the way! I can't say I blame him, either.
How that man is still on the pitch is utterly beyond me! It must be his hair or something!


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

Slime said:



			As blatant as you can get! Oh, and how did Welbeck not get one this afternoon? Another no-brainer.



It was a blatant attempt to bodycheck Jones, which he did, and made minimal contact on Hazard, but Hazard saw it coming so dived out of the way! I can't say I blame him, either.
How that man is still on the pitch is utterly beyond me! It must be his hair or something!


*Slime*.
		
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Is that the challenge from Azpilculeta ( spelling ) ?!

Did he already have the shot when the challenge came in ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

How is that a red card ?

It's a clumsy challenge but it's a yellow card not a red

If challenges like that are red then the game has gone soft


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

And that two footed jumping in tackle from Rafael is what should be a red


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How is that a red card ?

It's a clumsy challenge but it's a yellow card not a red

If challenges like that are red then the game has gone soft
		
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Tbf the game went soft a long time ago.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How is that a red card ?

It's a clumsy challenge but it's a yellow card not a red

If challenges like that are red then the game has gone soft
		
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i think it was the intent that got him the red card. He was not even close to the ball he just wanted to hack hazard down, but still a bit harsh, but understandable why he got red.



Liverpoolphil said:



			And that two footed jumping in tackle from Rafael is what should be a red
		
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That was disgraceful, that is the sort of tackle they have tried to remove from football.

so one red and one yellow. But the wrong way round. Loosing Vidic for a few games will hurt them more than if it had been the correct way round.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			i think it was the intent that got him the red card. He was not even close to the ball he just wanted to hack hazard down, but still a bit harsh, but understandable why he got red.



That was disgraceful, that is the sort of tackle they have tried to remove from football.

so one red and one yellow. But the wrong way round. Loosing Vidic for a few games will hurt them more than if it had been the correct way round.
		
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Yeah that's prob about right 

Saw this on BBC Sport Web and made me laugh 




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-25781156

:lol:


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## G1BB0 (Jan 19, 2014)

both reds, let man u suffer.

see how they like no european footy next season


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## Slime (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How is that a red card ?

*It's a clumsy challenge but it's a yellow card not a red*

If challenges like that are red then the game has gone soft
		
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*I never said it was a red card*, it should have been a penalty and a yellow for Azpilicueta (I think it was), but I never said it was a sending off! Oh, and whether or not he'd already taken a shot is totally & utterly irrelevant. In fact, it's not just a tackle from behind, it's also a *late* tackle from behind!
It's Luiz who should have been sent off, probably twice!
As for the Rafael tackle, although he took the ball in a beautifully timed tackle, those tackle are outlawed and he should have gone for sure. 
The Vidic red ......................... totally laughable. 


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

Slime said:



*I never said it was a red card*, it should have been a penalty and a yellow for Azpilicueta (I think it was), but I never said it was a sending off! Oh, and whether or not he'd already taken a shot is totally & utterly irrelevant. In fact, it's not just a tackle from behind, it's also a *late* tackle from behind!
It's Luiz who should have been sent off, probably twice!
As for the Rafael tackle, although he took the ball in a beautifully timed tackle, those tackle are outlawed and he should have gone for sure. 
The Vidic red ......................... totally laughable. 


*Slime*.
		
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think wires are crossed here, Phil's "how is that a red" was in reference to Vidic.


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## Slime (Jan 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			think wires are crossed here, Phil's "how is that a red" was in reference to Vidic.
		
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Not surprising the way I'm feeling right now!
Just to put the record straight this is what should have happened.
Azpilicueta - yellow card & penalty against.
Luiz - Red card
Luiz - probably another red card.
Vidic - Yellow card
Rafael - Red card & transfer list!

*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

Slime said:



			Not surprising the way I'm feeling right now!
Just to put the record straight this is what should have happened.
Azpilicueta - yellow card & penalty against.
Luiz - Red card
Luiz - probably another red card.
Vidic - Yellow card
Rafael - Red card & transfer list!

*Slime*.
		
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if only footy were so simple. We'd hae nothing to talk about on here...........


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Slime said:



			Not surprising the way I'm feeling right now!
Just to put the record straight this is what should have happened.
Azpilicueta - yellow card & penalty against.
Luiz - Red card
Luiz - probably another red card.
Vidic - Yellow card
Rafael - Red card & transfer list!

*Slime*.
		
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couldnt agree more slime. :thup:


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## Slime (Jan 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			if only footy were so simple. We'd hae nothing to talk about on here...........
		
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There'd be no point going down the Messi v Ronaldo route as everyone knows Ronaldo is better.

We could always talk about Suarez, Terry or Rooney .


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 19, 2014)

Just to lighten the mood:rofl:


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



View attachment 8849

Just to lighten the mood:rofl:
		
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:thup::rofl:


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## One Planer (Jan 19, 2014)

It's funny. 

At the start of the match when I saw Dowd (sp?) was in charge is said to the wife

"There will be a red card in this match then"

Turns out I was proved right.  You just know a certain few refs like to pull the red in the big games. 

As for the match I thought it was pretty well refereed. A lot I of soft falling over, but that's premier league football these days.

Vidic's intent saw him get then red' but Rafael should also have gone.

There have been some shocking decisions across the leagues this weekend. I wonder if people in charge of the referees feel they do a good job.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 19, 2014)

Refs are under pressure,and I see no end in sight.  I wouldnt like to do it and im a mod , so well used to abuse  

The only way to move forward is to embrace technology, then there can be no arguments

tennis, rugby and cricket do it, have they suffered?  NO

just my view


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## Garesfield ACE (Jan 19, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I watched it live on telly and that was a very difficult one for the ref to spot.

Strange game.....Sunderland supporters were leaving after 25 mins.
I can't say I blamed them.

Luke Shaw looks promising.
		
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You think REAL fans would leave after 25 mins of any game???


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Refs are under pressure,and I see no end in sight.  I wouldnt like to do it and im a mod , so well used to abuse  

The only way to move forward is to embrace technology, then there can be no arguments

tennis, rugby and cricket do it, have they suffered?  NO

just my view
		
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I think the difference between those sports and football is they all have what i would call natural breaks in play 

I don't think video replay during the game is something that can work in football


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## arnieboy (Jan 19, 2014)

I can't work out why anyone would leave until the final whistle.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

I find yet again we are drawn into discussing rescissions made in big games. We had Man City v Liverpool, Chelsea v Liverpool, now it's Chelsea v Man United. These games are all huge in respect to the winners and people getting champions league places that are worth multiple millions to clubs in revenue. 

The decision to send Vidic off was harsh as I have seen worse than that and players get away with it, remember the etoo tackle on Henderson a couple of weeks ago? So that will be a 3 game ban for him and Man Utd struggling to have a strong defense out over the next few games. That could put the nail in the coffin for them getting into 4th, but fortunately for them it is Cardiff, Stoke and Fulham next, so they might get away with it. 

IMO something needs to be done to help the ref out, or this is just going to become a regular thing that the league positions are going to decided by them, not the players.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I find yet again we are drawn into discussing rescissions made in big games. We had Man City v Liverpool, Chelsea v Liverpool, now it's Chelsea v Man United. These games are all huge in respect to the winners and people getting champions league places that are worth multiple millions to clubs in revenue. 

The decision to send Vidic off was harsh as I have seen worse than that and players get away with it, remember the etoo tackle on Henderson a couple of weeks ago? So that will be a 3 game ban for him and Man Utd struggling to have a strong defense out over the next few games. That could put the nail in the coffin for them getting into 4th, but fortunately for them it is Cardiff, Stoke and Fulham next, so they might get away with it. 

IMO something needs to be done to help the ref out, or this is just going to become a regular thing that the league positions are going to decided by them, not the players.
		
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Whilst I agree that decisions have an impact. That has been the case as long as I remember. Today Chelsea got lucky, next week UTD, the week after Liverpool etc. we all get then, although some (big clubs) more than others. I think we're a long way away from the ref deciding champions or we would of had more than four teams win the title for best part of 20years. We're all quick enough to forget when things go our way.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			That was disgraceful, that is the sort of tackle they have tried to remove from football.

so one red and one yellow. But the wrong way round. Loosing Vidic for a few games will hurt them more than if it had been the correct way round.
		
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The problem is that Man U could appeal against the Vidic red card and possibly get it over turned so that Vidic will be available for them in the next few games, whereas the Rafael challenge that deserved a red can't be looked at again as the ref saw it and gave a yellow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem is that Man U could appeal against the Vidic red card and possibly get it over turned so that Vidic will be available for them in the next few games, whereas the Rafael challenge that deserved a red can't be looked at again as the ref saw it and gave a yellow.
		
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And that's wrong and that is something that needs changing 

It shouldn't matter if the ref has dealt with it or not - there should be a system in place where yellow cards can get upgraded 

Still amazed at the McManaman incident last year


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And that's wrong and that is something that needs changing 

It shouldn't matter if the ref has dealt with it or not - there should be a system in place where yellow cards can get upgraded 

Still amazed at the McManaman incident last year
		
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Totally agree. Just because the ref saw it and got it wrong at the time doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to go back and correct it later. Just seems wrong that if a ref (and his two assistants) get it wrong by not seeing it then it can be looked at but if a ref sees it and makes a mistake it can't be put right afterwards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

They are scared to point out the mistakes that refs make


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Totally agree. Just because the ref saw it and got it wrong at the time doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to go back and correct it later. Just seems wrong that if a ref (and his two assistants) get it wrong by not seeing it then it can be looked at but if a ref sees it and makes a mistake it can't be put right afterwards.
		
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I think the problem with upgrading retrospectively is that it is still down to opinions to a certain degree. It's why technology should only be used for offside, over the line and if foul inside box or not. Although there are cases where people all agree. Just look at how much debating goes on, on here. Even if a team agreed it was a foul, then they'd have to decide on sanctions.


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## Garesfield ACE (Jan 19, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Totally agree. Just because the ref saw it and got it wrong at the time doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to go back and correct it later. Just seems wrong that if a ref (and his two assistants) get it wrong by not seeing it then it can be looked at but if a ref sees it and makes a mistake it can't be put right afterwards.
		
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Would that be the Wigan player who almost decapitated Newcastles Hadeira putting him out the game for months??

Disgraceful what he got away with....unpunished.


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## Garesfield ACE (Jan 19, 2014)

Garesfield ACE said:



			Would that be the Wigan player who almost decapitated Newcastles Hadeira putting him out the game for months??

Disgraceful what he got away with....unpunished.
		
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Oops..put that on the wrong post.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 20, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem is that Man U could appeal against the Vidic red card and possibly get it over turned so that Vidic will be available for them in the next few games, whereas the Rafael challenge that deserved a red can't be looked at again as the ref saw it and gave a yellow.
		
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I donâ€™t think they would have much of a case though. Whether anyone thinks it a red or a yellow, the FA could say â€“ he was late (at least 2 foot away from the ball), he meant it, there was no attempt for the ball and he made contact. There is no mitigating factor on this occasion.

Moyes must be tearing his hair out, in the last few weeks, Fabio came on and was sent off within 10 minutes. Today, vidic gets sent off in the last few minutes, and Rafael tries to join him. Suicidal decisions by his own players.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And that two footed jumping in tackle from Rafael is what should be a red
		
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After that penalty I wonder if Moyes wishes that Dowd had red-carded Rafael?


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