# Students Grants Done Away With



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

Whilst I have concerns that students from poorer families will come out of uni with a loan to be repaid of almost Â£52000 - and this may well put many off from going to uni - that concern has a little silver lining.  Because I know of a fair few well off families playing and cheating the system to get maintenance grants - whilst still somehow managing to live in very expensive houses; send their children to private school; have holidays way beyond our means; and all of course can support the children driving nice new(ish) cars.  

In the main the beneficiaries of such government largess are children of parents who have separated.  Based upon declared household income the child qualifies for a grant.  But of course behind the scenes the absent wealthy father is ploughing a load of cash into the child - sometimes directly - sometimes through the mother.   But is is not recorded as household income and so a grant is forthcoming.  These are not the children of the poor - they are the children of the greedy.  And they are stealing money from us.


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## virtuocity (Jul 10, 2015)

This part of the budget has sent a clear message to poorer families: know thine place.

Education is not for you, but don't even think about going on the dole once you finish school- you won't be paid and you won't be housed.  This message will be absorbed by every 16 year old without able familial financiers and they will realise that further education is just another thing that society has deemed for those who don't face financial hardship.  

So, they are forced to take jobs in sectors with very little opportunity for social mobility, unprotected by National Living Wage.  The cycle continues.

For me, any policy which disempowers young people from making decisions about their future education is deeply worrying.  However, others will be suckered in by the spin that 'it's about stopping people from stealing our money'.

Know thine place poor people.


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## jp5 (Jul 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the main the beneficiaries of such government largess are children of parents who have separated. ... behind the scenes the absent wealthy father is ploughing a load of cash into the child
		
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Sounds like you know a few people playing the system, but there is no silver lining for the many students from poorer families that this grant used to help.

In the end, the taxpayers are going to have an almighty bill to pick up when half of students won't have paid off their loans in 30 years.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 10, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			This part of the budget has sent a clear message to poorer families: know thine place.

Education is not for you, but don't even think about going on the dole once you finish school- you won't be paid and you won't be housed.  This message will be absorbed by every 16 year old without able familial financiers and they will realise that further education is just another thing that society has deemed for those who don't face financial hardship.  

So, they are forced to take jobs in sectors with very little opportunity for social mobility, unprotected by National Living Wage.  The cycle continues.

For me, any policy which disempowers young people from making decisions about their future education is deeply worrying.  However, others will be suckered in by the spin that 'it's about stopping people from stealing our money'.

Know thine place poor people.
		
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Remind me why this means those from a "poorer" background can't go to uni? The notional Â£50k to be paid back after comes only after they are earning?


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## TheDiablo (Jul 10, 2015)

IMO opinion they should eradicate student loans and replace them with a graduate tax. Something like 2.5% for those earning under Â£25k OR working in the public sector and 5% for those earning above Â£25k in the private sector. I've not crunched any numbers so that's pretty much plucked from thin air but seems sensible to me.

The size of the loan is now becoming irrelevant - a huge number of people will never pay that off. HID is a primary teacher who graduated with approx 23k of debt. If our plans to start a family in a couple of years and her go part time are fortunate to come to fruition then she will only have paid ~8k of that back and will be under the threshold for further repayment until it is wiped clean in 20 years.

Meanwhile, I'll have cleared my Â£18k in 5 years by the time I am 32. Doesn't quite seem to fit.

In response to the OP - I know of people whose parents had retired early and this allowed them to claim full grants! They had retired by 55 because they were loaded!!


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## ger147 (Jul 10, 2015)

Loans aren't a necessity either to go to university, in Scotland at least where the students aren't liable for the payment of the fees. I did 4 years at University and worked the entire time to support myself. I stayed at home with my parents and left Uni 4 years later with no debt.

Grants should have stayed for people from poorer families.


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## jp5 (Jul 10, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Loans aren't a necessity either to go to university, *in Scotland at least where the students aren't liable for the payment of the fees*.  I did 4 years at University and worked the entire time to support myself.  I stayed at home with my parents and left Uni 4 years later with no debt.
		
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Well, only if you're Scottish or from the continent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Loans aren't a necessity either to go to university, in Scotland at least where the students aren't liable for the payment of the fees.  I did 4 years at University and worked the entire time to support myself.  I stayed at home with my parents and left Uni 4 years later with no debt.
		
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That's exactly how I did it.  I stayed at home with my parents; got a bit of a grant but I gave some of that to my parents to contribute towards my keep; worked all holidays - and just like you left with no debt whatsoever.

And I do have concerns about the poorer running up a loan of Â£52k - but really that shouldn't stop them going - they will have a degree at the end, the opportunities and earning capacity the same as anyone else with a degree.  The loan should be considered a tax and taken at source so you never see the money going.

But it has sickened me rather these last few years seeing so many *truly *undeserving getting grants - whilst many struggle.


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## jp5 (Jul 10, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			IMO opinion they should eradicate student loans and replace them with a graduate tax. Something like 2.5% for those earning under Â£25k OR working in the public sector and 5% for those earning above Â£25k in the private sector. I've not crunched any numbers so that's pretty much plucked from thin air but seems sensible to me.

The size of the loan is now becoming irrelevant - a huge number of people will never pay that off. HID is a primary teacher who graduated with approx 23k of debt. If our plans to start a family in a couple of years and her go part time are fortunate to come to fruition then she will only have paid ~8k of that back and will be under the threshold for further repayment until it is wiped clean in 20 years.

Meanwhile, I'll have cleared my Â£18k in 5 years by the time I am 32. Doesn't quite seem to fit.

In response to the OP - I know of people whose parents had retired early and this allowed them to claim full grants! They had retired by 55 because they were loaded!!
		
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For many graduates the student loan is for all intents a graduate tax as they'll never pay off their loan in full. I think you need to earn northwards of Â£26k just to break even with repayment vs interest fees, which is about the national average.

Would you really be happy paying a graduate tax though? A cursory run of your numbers would suggest you'd pay a few thousand a year - every year! Sounds an awful lot.


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## chellie (Jul 10, 2015)

Our eldest daughter (aged 24) had her PGCE graduation ceremony yesterday. She has minimum debt due to the fact that she worked full time and did her Business Degree in the evenings at Uni. She also saved some money so she could do her PGCE without getting into too much debt. Think she may have had a small grant of Â£500.


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## TheDiablo (Jul 10, 2015)

jp5 said:



			For many graduates the student loan is for all intents a graduate tax as they'll never pay off their loan in full. I think you need to earn northwards of Â£26k just to break even with repayment vs interest fees, which is about the national average.

Would you really be happy paying a graduate tax though? A cursory run of your numbers would suggest you'd pay a few thousand a year - every year! Sounds an awful lot.
		
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Is anyone really happy paying any tax?! It would seem more fair to me though - say someone was earning 75k, i'd be paying 2.5% up to 25k (Â£625) + 5% of Â£50k (Â£2500) so just over Â£3k a year. For Â£40k it would be Â£1375 a year. Seems pretty reasonable to me for the benefits a good degree can bring. It would also attract some high calibre graduates to the public sector if the right level of incentive/tax break was offered.

I'm no analyst so this is really only a high level idea, but seems better than the current system.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's exactly how I did it.  I stayed at home with my parents; got a bit of a grant but I gave some of that to my parents to contribute towards my keep; worked all holidays - and just like you left with no debt whatsoever.
		
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Er....How much did you pay towards the University course fees?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Er....How much did you pay towards the University course fees?
		
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Nothing


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## Old Skier (Jul 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whilst I have concerns that students from poorer families will come out of uni with a loan to be repaid of almost Â£52000 - and this may well put many off from going to uni - that concern has a little silver lining.  Because I know of a fair few well off families playing and cheating the system to get maintenance grants - whilst still somehow managing to live in very expensive houses; send their children to private school; have holidays way beyond our means; and all of course can support the children driving nice new(ish) cars.  

In the main the beneficiaries of such government largess are children of parents who have separated.  Based upon declared household income the child qualifies for a grant.  But of course behind the scenes the absent wealthy father is ploughing a load of cash into the child - sometimes directly - sometimes through the mother.   But is is not recorded as household income and so a grant is forthcoming.  These are not the children of the poor - they are the children of the greedy.  And they are stealing money from us.
		
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If you know people who are commiting fraud then man up and report it or is this another thinly veiled attacks on a government you didn't vote for.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:





Foxholer said:



			Er....How much did you pay towards the University course fees?
		
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Nothing
		
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Exactly! And that's the difference between the 2 generations!

I'm all for reverting back to University education being free, as it is for Scots in Scotland - or at least greatly reduced! It's an investment in the future, not a purchase! 

The entire Uni/Youth (un)employment has been a farcical political football for years! I actually blame Blair's government for starting it by encouraging further education as a means to keep 18yos off the Unemployment figures, then charging them for the privilege too! There was no reduction in the 'rates' that previously funded the cost, so that was simply another 'stealth tax'!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2015)

The prime reason for the recent financial crash was being people encouraged to take on more and more debt. Which eventually everyone worked out that they could never repay. So I can't help thinking that ensuring everyone that goes into further education starts life with a sizeable debt isn't the brightest thing to do if we want to avoid repeating the same mistakes.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			The prime reason for the recent financial crash was being people encouraged to take on more and more debt. Which eventually everyone worked out that they could never repay. So I can't help thinking that ensuring everyone that goes into further education starts life with a sizeable debt isn't the brightest thing to do if we want to avoid repeating the same mistakes.
		
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Away with you and your sensible posts!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2015)

Re OP.

We paid for my eldest daughter to go to Uni. No grants were available.
One of my friends was loaded and divorced, his wife was able to claim a full grant for their son.
He thought it quite funny,I didn't.

Silly journo on QT last night wingeing because she had to pay for her daughter to go to a Scots Uni.
I don't suppose for one moment it entered her pretty little head that Scots students have to pay to go to English Uni's

As Tommy Shepherd said.....Different countries, different priorities.


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## CliveW (Jul 10, 2015)

Students can no longer get holiday or evening/weekend jobs, because they are all taken by graduates who can't get proper jobs!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re OP.

We paid for my eldest daughter to go to Uni. No grants were available.
*One of my friends was loaded and divorced, his wife was able to claim a full grant for their son.
He thought it quite funny,I didn't.
*
Silly journo on QT last night wingeing because she had to pay for her daughter to go to a Scots Uni.
I don't suppose for one moment it entered her pretty little head that Scots students have to pay to go to English Uni's

As Tommy Shepherd said.....Different countries, different priorities.
		
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BiB - that's what sticks in my throat.  Though with the ones we know the loaded dads are pumping piles of dosh the way of their kids - they don't actually *need *the grant at all.  And they think it's great   How stupid of me and my Mrs to stick together.  
.


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## c1973 (Jul 10, 2015)

Never ceases to amaze me that the generation/s (from all political parties) who benefited so much from free further education insist that others must pay for theirs, whether it is through loans or grants etc. 

Mind you, I'm not entirely sure if I believe it should be free, so.........

&#128515;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Never ceases to amaze me that the generation/s (from all political parties) who benefited so much from free further education insist that others must pay for theirs, whether it is through loans or grants etc. 

Mind you, I'm not entirely sure if I believe it should be free, so.........

&#128515;
		
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I'd rather they didn't.  But I don't see a way back for the English system unless there us a complete change in perception over any benefit of going to uni.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Never ceases to amaze me that the generation/s (from all political parties) who benefited so much from free further education insist that others must pay for theirs, whether it is through loans or grants etc. 

Mind you, I'm not entirely sure if I believe it should be free, so.........

&#128515;
		
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The difference was for me that no one from the school I attended went to University, I cant remember anyone I grew up with going either, the numbers who attained grants were very small then.

When it was decided to create so many new universities from previous polytechnic colleges and encourage around 50% of school leavers to go to Uni then this created a problem on how this could be funded, it was obvious that the tax payer could not fund this expansion.

I think most people would be prepared to fund the costs of people like Doctors, Nurses, Engineers and Scientists but not those studying subjects like the History of Art and Oriental Yoghurt Knitting


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## Foliage Finder (Jul 10, 2015)

I agree partially with these changes. As a student now it's nice that I have the grants and believe me, they are necessary to get by when you don't have parents who can keep you comfortable whilst living away. So it's good to know that the money will still be available to those who need it. 

As for it being part of the loan as opposed to a giveaway, that's fair. You go to university to get a degree to improve your chances of entering a successful career to earn a healthier salary than if you didn't. A healthier salary that will allow you to pay off a larger loan. My bursary is/was typically around 15-20% of my total loan amount, so it's not as if were talking astronomical hikes. Just as an aside, I'm looking at leaving uni with about 45k worth, and I'm still on the old Â£3500ish fees.

The other issue that does hand-in-hand here is the availability of relevant, degree specific graduate jobs. As the economy continues to grow, more jobs like these should be in the pipeline. Although, I'm fairly certain there is somewhat of a buildup of highly qualified people who have been unable to get those jobs as they have been so sparse over the past few years, so time will tell if this side of the deal works out.

Overall, this may put people off going to university to study air guitar and doss about for three years. That needs to stop.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The difference was for me that no one from the school I attended went to University, I cant remember anyone I grew up with going either, the numbers who attained grants were very small then.

When it was decided to create so many new universities from previous polytechnic colleges and encourage around 50% of school leavers to go to Uni then this created a problem on how this could be funded, it was obvious that the tax payer could not fund this expansion.

I think most people would be prepared to fund the costs of people like Doctors, Nurses, Engineers and Scientists but not those studying subjects like the History of Art and Oriental Yoghurt Knitting 

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My yoghurt knitting degree had actually come in very useful. But I did not take the oriental module as I just stuck to the traditional European syllabus.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			My yoghurt knitting degree had actually come in very useful. But I did not take the oriental module as I just stuck to the traditional European syllabus.
		
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Did you not take a Masters in 'Greek Organic'  I am lead to believe it's thixotropic characteristics are exceptional in knit one pearl one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you not take a Masters in 'Greek Organic'  I am lead to believe it's thixotropic characteristics are exceptional in knit one pearl one.
		
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Trouble with that is that they 'cast off' in the wrong places..

BTW Â£45k debt for three years study is crazy.
There are areas in Scotland where you could buy a decent two bedroom house for that.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trouble with that is that they 'cast off' in the wrong places..

BTW Â£45k debt for three years study is crazy.
There are areas in Scotland where you could buy a decent two bedroom house for that.
		
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But why is it crazy? Genuine question. If it nets you an extra Â£100k over your life, is that crazy? Or is it a good investment...

If it doesn't net you much, why are you doing it?


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## Del_Boy (Jul 10, 2015)

The state gives you an education until you are 18 ie an adult why should it look after you after that?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW Â£45k debt for three years study is crazy.
There are areas in Scotland where you could buy a decent two bedroom house for that.
		
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But thats only a part of what it costs, if the Student doesn't pay it then who should?   Are you suggesting people that haven't been to University should pay it for them?    I think you need reminding Doon that the Government only has money it takes out of our wages.


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## delc (Jul 11, 2015)

Foliage Finder said:



			I agree partially with these changes. As a student now it's nice that I have the grants and believe me, they are necessary to get by when you don't have parents who can keep you comfortable whilst living away. So it's good to know that the money will still be available to those who need it. 

As for it being part of the loan as opposed to a giveaway, that's fair. You go to university to get a degree to improve your chances of entering a successful career to earn a healthier salary than if you didn't. A healthier salary that will allow you to pay off a larger loan. My bursary is/was typically around 15-20% of my total loan amount, so it's not as if were talking astronomical hikes. Just as an aside, I'm looking at leaving uni with about 45k worth, and I'm still on the old Â£3500ish fees.

The other issue that does hand-in-hand here is the availability of relevant, degree specific graduate jobs. As the economy continues to grow, more jobs like these should be in the pipeline. Although, I'm fairly certain there is somewhat of a buildup of highly qualified people who have been unable to get those jobs as they have been so sparse over the past few years, so time will tell if this side of the deal works out.

Overall, this may put people off going to university to study air guitar and doss about for three years. That needs to stop.
		
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Unfortunately the glut of recent graduates has devalued the worth of being a graduate, so there is no guarantee that you will earn very much more than anybody who hasn't been to Uni, but saddled with a huge debt. Junk food restaurants are often completely staffed with recent graduates on the minimum wage!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			But why is it crazy? Genuine question. If it nets you an extra Â£100k over your life, is that crazy? Or is it a good investment...

If it doesn't net you much, why are you doing it?
		
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It would take a lifetime for many to pay back the loan and there is no guarantee that they will get a well paid job.
Four students of my daughters generation are currently a London barrister, a Tesco manager, a penniless author, and my daughter owns her own start up company.
I would imagine that one out of four seem happy to pay back their loan.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But thats only a part of what it costs, if the Student doesn't pay it then who should?   Are you suggesting people that haven't been to University should pay it for them?    I think you need reminding Doon that the Government only has money it takes out of our wages.
		
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I am quite happy to help fund the education of the future generation, after all their taxes will be helping to pay for my pension.
Seems fair to me.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But thats only a part of what it costs, if the Student doesn't pay it then who should?   Are you suggesting people that haven't been to University should pay it for them?    I think you need reminding Doon that the Government only has money it takes out of our wages.
		
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But there is always an element of people paying for services they do not use or want when you pay taxes, but that's the price you pay for living in a society where the government distributes taxes as they see fit. Using your argument I could ask due to the fact I've never used hospitals, why should I pay for someone else to have a replacement hip operation as that does not benefit me in any way?

Having an educated workforce is an investment in UK PLC as as any UKIP party member knows, there are plenty of highly educated foreigners who will be more than happy to come to the UK and take up those jobs if native British workers can not do them, not due to laziness as is sometimes the case, but due to the fact they are not educated enough.  I personally do not object to students paying back some of the fees over time when (if) they can afford them. But I also think the nation should be investing in the education of our future workforce.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			But there is always an element of people paying for services they do not use or want when you pay taxes, but that's the price you pay for living in a society where the government distributes taxes as they see fit. Using your argument I could ask due to the fact I've never used hospitals, why should I pay for someone else to have a replacement hip operation as that does not benefit me in any way?

Having an educated workforce is an investment in UK PLC as as any UKIP party member knows, there are plenty of highly educated foreigners who will be more than happy to come to the UK and take up those jobs if native British workers can not do them, not due to laziness as is sometimes the case, but due to the fact they are not educated enough.  I personally do not object to students paying back some of the fees over time when (if) they can afford them. But I also think the nation should be investing in the education of our future workforce.
		
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The Nation invests a great deal in the education of the future work force, I think we all know that.  As previously stated, the problem is the volume of people, when a target was set whereby 50% of school leavers to go to Uni then it became unaffordable unless students paid more, which iMO is quite fair and they only pay a part of the costs anyway.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The Nation invests a great deal in the education of the future work force, I think we all know that.  As previously stated, the problem is the volume of people, when a target was set whereby 50% of school leavers to go to Uni then it became unaffordable unless students paid more, which iMO is quite fair and they only pay a part of the costs anyway.
		
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You could argue that anything is affordable (within reason) depending on where you wish to invest.  For example more of your taxes go on defense that does on education http://wheredoesmymoneygo.org/dailybread.html It's just where the government depends to prioritise spending.  The hippy in me says that if globally we invested all the money we spend on defense on education instead the world would be a much better place.  But unfortunately certain parts of humanity are too far down the path of hatred and intolerance to do that now.


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## delc (Jul 11, 2015)

I note that some young lady students are advertising for rich "sugar daddy" lovers to help fund their educations. Sounds like a form of prostitution to me. Just wish I had more money! Seriously though, young people should not have to make decisions like this!


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2015)

I think this is a continuation of a horribly regressive policy. I did medicine at Uni, but I wouldn't have gone at all had there been these loans and fees at the time. The problem is clear when the response to that assertion is that you don't have to pay it back unless you earn a decent wage and many don't. Precisely. Many of the courses now available are a waste of time and money and serve only to support Unis and to further this absurd random objective that more people should go to Uni. 

I have paid back my student grant and the cost of my education at Uni many times over through taxation, not to mention working as a junior hospital doctor doing 100 hours a week, of which 60 or so were paid at 60% below standard hourly rate. I remember working New Years Eve, sitting in A&E just before midnight waiting on a porter to bring a patient to the ward. Porter arrived and bemoaned missing New Year celebrations. Still, he said, at least we are getting triple time. Not me, I said, and explained our pay structure. Bloody Hell, doc, he said, I thought you lot were supposed to be smart. 

There should be adequate data now from the student loans programme about the payback rates from different courses. They could use that data to identify those which did not pay back very well, and scrap them.


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## chellie (Jul 11, 2015)

delc said:



			I note that some young lady students are advertising for rich "sugar daddy" lovers to help fund their educations. Sounds like a form of prostitution to me. Just wish I had more money! Seriously though, young people should not have to make decisions like this!
		
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They don't have to. Read my post earlier on.


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## delc (Jul 11, 2015)

chellie said:



			They don't have to. Read my post earlier on.
		
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I think that student loans are just a tax on being intelligent and aspirational, or for having clever kids. The big joke is that many student loans will never get paid back due to the glut of graduates forcing down market rates. It seems that many graduates are prepared to work for almost nothing just to get work experience. Even if they do get on, the repayments will kick in at about the stage in life when they might be thinking of getting married and buying a house, so less chance of them having children and passing on their superior genes to the next generation. Survival of the thickest on benefits, who seem to have lots of kids!


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 11, 2015)

I don't see my student load repayments as a terrible thing, I borrowed some money to go to university. Its not like a real loan and its all taken care of in PAYE.

Yes we do think about our spending most months, I cant afford new irons and a new golf club only or two only follows a windfall. We are not well off by any means but the wonderful jobs I have had are largely down to having a degree, its worth it even though we budget our food, do all we can to save on bills (navy showers etc) and rarely splurge on expenses. Having cheap second hand cars, not smoking and not drinking (much) is our only saving grace to allow other little luxuries (like golf).


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

ScienceBoy said:



			I don't see my student load repayments as a terrible thing, I borrowed some money to go to university. Its not like a real loan and its all taken care of in PAYE.

Yes we do think about our spending most months, I cant afford new irons and a new golf club only or two only follows a windfall. We are not well off by any means but the wonderful jobs I have had are largely down to having a degree, its worth it even though we budget our food, do all we can to save on bills (navy showers etc) and rarely splurge on expenses. Having cheap second hand cars, not smoking and not drinking (much) is our only saving grace to allow other little luxuries (like golf).
		
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What happens if you work in another country where there is no HMRC PAYE system? Can you avoid repaying the loan that way?


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

chellie said:



			They don't have to. Read my post earlier on.
		
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Your daughter must be quite exceptional. I did my basic scientific qualifications by day release from work and 3 nights a week at night school. I found that pretty exhausting with all the homework involved, so when I was subsequently offered a place at a University, I left my reasonably well paid job to study full time, just taking holiday jobs (Xmas postman etc) to fund my life style. I did get a small Local Educational Authority grant and my university tuition fees paid for by the Government. Without these I probably wouldn't have gone to Uni, particularly as I had to give up a paid job to go there.

P.S. I had a bank overdraft of only Â£15 when I graduated and almost immediately got a reasonably well paid job. How things have changed!


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## jp5 (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			What happens if you work in another country where there is no HMRC PAYE system? Can you avoid repaying the loan that way?
		
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Still responsible for repayment if overseas.


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## jp5 (Jul 12, 2015)

ScienceBoy said:



			I don't see my student load repayments as a terrible thing, I borrowed some money to go to university. Its not like a real loan and its all taken care of in PAYE.

Yes we do think about our spending most months, I cant afford new irons and a new golf club only or two only follows a windfall. We are not well off by any means but the wonderful jobs I have had are largely down to having a degree, its worth it even though we budget our food, do all we can to save on bills (navy showers etc) and rarely splurge on expenses. Having cheap second hand cars, not smoking and not drinking (much) is our only saving grace to allow other little luxuries (like golf).
		
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Very good post. Though it would have been good for our politicians to grant students the same free university tuition they benefited from, with the sheer number and profligacy of students going to university nowadays it's just not feasible.

Having to repay the fees is no deterrent to going to university as many make it out to be. It's a considered bet on the future of your career - do well and you'll pay a percentage of your income back to cover the education you benefited from. If you don't reach that level then there is nothing to pay.


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Very good post. Though it would have been good for our politicians to grant students the same free university tuition they benefited from, with the sheer number and profligacy of students going to university nowadays it's just not feasible.

Having to repay the fees is no deterrent to going to university as many make it out to be. It's a considered bet on the future of your career - do well and you'll pay a percentage of your income back to cover the education you benefited from. If you don't reach that level then there is nothing to pay.
		
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Easy for you to say that, perhaps, but some people used to living within their modest means are not comfortable taking out large loans which are gambles against future prospects. I was exactly one such kid once upon a time. 

Anyway, the model doesn't work. The Student Loans system is barely economically viable and does not save HMG money compared to the old system of grants. It exists to support an ideological position. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10982037/Student-loans-under-threat-say-MPs.html

This same ideologies said that 50% of school kids should be able to go to Uni. This is an absurd objective, but in order to achieve this, there has been a massive proliferation of rubbish courses in dodgy institutions which give their graduates little advantage or prospects in life, and devalue courses elsewhere and in other disciplines. 

Education is an investment in society. The country needs doctors, nurses, teachers, scientists, accountants, whatever, and these people pay extra taxes and provide services to the economy. We could probably live with fewer bankers, though. Many of these courses on media studies and marketing are simply a waste of time.


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Very good post. Though it would have been good for our politicians to grant students the same free university tuition they benefited from, with the sheer number and profligacy of students going to university nowadays it's just not feasible.

Having to repay the fees is no deterrent to going to university as many make it out to be. It's a considered bet on the future of your career - do well and you'll pay a percentage of your income back to cover the education you benefited from. If you don't reach that level then there is nothing to pay.
		
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So either way you end up hard up!  :mmm:


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			So either way you end up hard up!  :mmm:
		
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You dont have to be and many are not.   It's easy to knock the system but what alternative can you offer?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Easy for you to say that, perhaps, but some people used to living within their modest means are not comfortable taking out large loans which are gambles against future prospects. I was exactly one such kid once upon a time. 

Anyway, the model doesn't work. The Student Loans system is barely economically viable and does not save HMG money compared to the old system of grants. It exists to support an ideological position. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10982037/Student-loans-under-threat-say-MPs.html

This same ideologies said that 50% of school kids should be able to go to Uni. This is an absurd objective, but in order to achieve this, there has been a massive proliferation of rubbish courses in dodgy institutions which give their graduates little advantage or prospects in life, and devalue courses elsewhere and in other disciplines. 

Education is an investment in society. The country needs doctors, nurses, teachers, scientists, accountants, whatever, and these people pay extra taxes and provide services to the economy. We could probably live with fewer bankers, though. Many of these courses on media studies and marketing are simply a waste of time.
		
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Good post!


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Still responsible for repayment if overseas.
		
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But apparently the Student Loans Company is not doing a particularly good job in collecting money from former students working abroad. See Daily Telegraph article quoted elsewhere in this thread.


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont have to be and many are not.   It's easy to knock the system but what alternative can you offer?
		
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How about only the top 10% of school leavers going on to University and maintenance grants and paid for tuition fees reinstated? More vocational training for everybody else.


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## jp5 (Jul 12, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Easy for you to say that, perhaps, but some people used to living within their modest means are not comfortable taking out large loans which are gambles against future prospects. I was exactly one such kid once upon a time.
		
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It's not much of a gamble though, is it? In fact it's as far from a gamble as can be. You do well - you pay it back. You don't do well - you don't pay it back.

At no point are you asked to pay back more than you earn. No where close in fact. So not sure how that would constitute living outside modest means?


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## jp5 (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			So either way you end up hard up!  :mmm:
		
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How do you work that out?

Case 1: you earn over the payment threshold. You pay back somewhere between 0.01% and ~7.5% of your salary. On the national average income you pay ~2% of your salary.
Case 2: you earn under the payment threshold. You pay back nothing.

So in case 1 you'll be a few percent 'worse off' each year. But to suggest you would be worse off would indicate you would have got that job without the degree. In many cases, you wouldn't.
In case 2 you can't be worse off by paying nothing. And you have a degree to your name which may help your future prospects.

I do agree that there are too many nonsense courses that the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidising. An artefact of the Blair years.

But overall I don't see too much issue in asking those that benefit from their non-mandatory education to pay for it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 12, 2015)

I always believed that successive Govenment's handling of students from the 1980's was a way of massaging the unemployment figures.

What do we do with former students like ex SLAB leader Jim Murphy who had 9 [yes nine] years at university and left without a degree.

In the 1980's my neighbours daughter spent 7 years at university reaching the age of 26 before she did a days work.
I had worked non stop for eleven years when I was 26.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 12, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always believed that successive Govenment's handling of students from the 1980's was a way of massaging the unemployment figures.

What do we do with former students like ex SLAB leader Jim Murphy who had 9 [yes nine] years at university and left without a degree.

In the 1980's my neighbours daughter spent 7 years at university reaching the age of 26 before she did a days work.
I had worked non stop for eleven years when I was 26.
		
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We both people to do the kind of job you can leave school at 15 to do, plus people to do jobs that need several years at university doing cutting edge research to do. As without either the country would be screwed.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			How about only the top 10% of school leavers going on to University and maintenance grants and paid for tuition fees reinstated? More vocational training for everybody else. 

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I would be comfortable to support fees for Doctors, Nurses, Engineers, Scientists etc.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			How about only the top 10% of school leavers going on to University and maintenance grants and paid for tuition fees reinstated? More vocational training for everybody else. 

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Because companies need an educated workforce. And if UK plc can only offer 10% of the workforce being university educated then we will have no chance. We have to compete globally and plenty of countries are investing in education and ensuring as many of their young people can compete for the best jobs.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because companies need an educated workforce. And if UK plc can only offer 10% of the workforce being university educated then we will have no chance. We have to compete globally and plenty of countries are investing in education and ensuring as many of their young people can compete for the best jobs.
		
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Most companies dont need a lot of graduates, they need a lot of people with practical skills that could be obtained at college.  just like they used to before Blair/Brown decided otherwise.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 12, 2015)

Not so sure about educated, one or two of the graduates I have worked with have been pretty dim.


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## cleanstrike (Jul 12, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not so sure about educated, one or two of the graduates I have worked with have been pretty dim.
		
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The sort of people that can easily calculate the cubic capacity of a jam jar but are easily confused when it comes to getting the lid off. :rofl:


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Most companies dont need a lot of graduates, they need a lot of people with practical skills that could be obtained at college.  just like they used to before Blair/Brown decided otherwise.
		
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Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.
		
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I disagree.   Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.
		
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Yes, if they have good degrees from a traditional university, not a 3rd class degree in knitting from a former technical college!


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2015)

Ethan said:



			,,,
Education is an investment in society. The country needs doctors, nurses, teachers, scientists, accountants, whatever, and these people pay extra taxes and provide services to the economy. *We could probably live with fewer bankers, though. *Many of these courses on media studies and marketing are simply a waste of time.
		
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While I share your detest of the greed of bankers, the 'banking and insurance' (Financial Services) industry provides a huge amount of both GDP and tax revenues, so the sooner the Banking industry gets sorted out the better imo! Bankers have been pretty consistent at providing 7-8% of the overall PAYE/NIC tax take. Corporation Tax, from Banking industry profits, have rocketed down from around 20% of overall amount to around 5%, something that isn't good for the country! In numbers, that's around Â£21 Billion in PAYE/NIC, CT and the Bank Levy (on bonuses), so pretty significant!


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## the smiling assassin (Jul 12, 2015)

Heard a frightening stat about a uni up here a couple of years ago: 
52% of annual spending on general administration. NOT including department/course specific admin. No wonder tuition fees are so high and teaching hours are dropping so fast. What a joke.


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## delc (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			We both people to do the kind of job you can leave school at 15 to do, plus people to do jobs that need several years at university doing cutting edge research to do. As without either the country would be screwed.
		
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Do you not agree that schools should teach their kids enough life skills and knowledge to get into working life. Due the breakdown in discipline, schools have become more like industrial scale child minding facilities!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree.   Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?
		
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We are increasingly living in a knowledge economy and what separates the best companies from the others is intellectual capital, this increasingly being a main way of gaining a competitive advantage. And whilst I agree they are a crude measure of intelligence, having a degree is often seen as a way to differentiate when you are recruiting new employees. Of course it is not true for all jobs and nor should it be , but that's the way the world is turning.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because companies need an educated workforce. And if UK plc can only offer 10% of the workforce being university educated then we will have no chance. We have to compete globally and plenty of countries are investing in education and ensuring as many of their young people can compete for the best jobs.
		
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We have many people immigrating to the UK who are not University Graduates but Skilled Crafts people: Plumbers, Carpenters, Builders etc.   These people have been trained at technical colleges in their home countries, something we have cut back on for decades, this is a prime example of us having to compete globally and falling well short while accepting a situation where we have high numbers of young people on benefits rather than obtaining the skills that will give them a chance of living a rewarding life.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 12, 2015)

delc said:



			Do you not agree that schools should teach their kids enough life skills and knowledge to get into working life. Due the breakdown in discipline, schools have become more like industrial scale child minding facilities!
		
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Most schools have little say in what they teach as it is mandated by the government. I agree that schools could be more vocational, but they will not be judged on that but on attainment and progress of their pupils against very strict targets set by the government of the day. And unfortunately education is a political football with most policies being as much ideologically driven as educationally driven. 

Also not all schools have a breakdown in discipline. And where there is, a lot of the blame would be better apportioned to the parents.


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree.   Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?
		
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Virtually every industry where the role is 'technical' rather than 'manual'!

However, the possession of a degree neither proves the candidate is really more suitable for a role, nor does it need to be relevant to achieve what many employers are looking for in a candidate with a degree! What it does demonstrate is that the graduate can stick at a task and organise their life sufficiently to achieve graduation That's a set of skills that's rather desirable for most employers. The actual technical details involved are often irrelevant - except in the likes of teaching, doctoring, lawyer-ing and higher levels of Financial Services. 

While you are very unlikely to get a job as a lawyer without a law degree, I knew of 1 employer who used to 'do the milk round' specifically looking for candidates outside of his industry (IT) and only once employed an IT graduate - who had a 1st from Cambridge, so was a bit special - his (Archeology grad) colleague was more useful for many things though!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			We are increasingly living in a knowledge economy and what separates the best companies from the others is intellectual capital, this increasingly being a main way of gaining a competitive advantage. And whilst I agree they are a crude measure of intelligence, having a degree is often seen as a way to differentiate when you are recruiting new employees. Of course it is not true for all jobs and nor should it be , but that's the way the world is turning.
		
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I think you are overcooking the size and concept of this 'Knowledge Economy'  and the inference that it's something new.   There are indeed companies that are very 'high tec' and need very clever people to develop cutting edge products but these companies are not a large part of industry.   

I think we all agree that the cleverest of people need support and help to reach their potential to assist the country to keep up or ahead of the field.   Currently we are producing too many graduates that don't have such skills but feel they have a right to high paid work and good prospects, they dont want to do manual jobs but expect to start out in management positions with no experience of working life.   Many end up jockeying for position in low level Supermarket/Burger Bar supervisory roles working for a few bob over the minimum wage.   IMO its a social experiment that went wrong.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 12, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.
		
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When I was employing this wasn't true.

Working with no 3 son to gain employment it defineltly isn't true.

Even the old adage that "if absolutely everything else is equal between 2 candidates you give the job to the graduate" now has substantial detractors ( the one without the advantage of going to uni has.still a manged to get this level...)

If you learn important things in getting your degree - great

As Ethan has posted one issue is the courses and importantly entry have been dumbed down ( in my day we completed the basic year 1 syllabus at school and got entry to establishments that appreciated that and took it forward) now the.majority will take anyone who pays ( and perversely those not paying and receiving subsistence grants pay best) and the basic concept of educating ends up the looser.

In simple terms people that may benefit UK plc are making decisions based on factors such as Western  how many children in family and whether parents can afford them all (loans are an element but parents still kick in to balance things where they can) - this isn't good for UK plc.

On the other hand we retain a huge number of teaching and administrative roles...which strangely hasn't occupied much of this thread.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Virtually every industry where the role is 'technical' rather than 'manual'!
		
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Most manufacturing industries are 'Technical' but require more people with practical skills than degrees.  There are indeed many high tec organisation like 'Software Developers that are the exception.  The vast majority of jobs are not high tec and dont require degrees.   There are many jobs that require skilled crafts people though and we have become poor at supplying people with these skills.


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Most manufacturing industries are 'Technical' but require more people with practical skills than degrees.  There are indeed many high tec organisation like 'Software Developers that are the exception.  The vast majority of jobs are not high tec and dont require degrees.   There are many jobs that require skilled crafts people though and we have become poor at supplying people with these skills.
		
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I agree! That's why I used the word 'role' rather than the word 'industry'!!


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			While I share your detest of the greed of bankers, the 'banking and insurance' (Financial Services) industry provides a huge amount of both GDP and tax revenues, so the sooner the Banking industry gets sorted out the better imo! Bankers have been pretty consistent at providing 7-8% of the overall PAYE/NIC tax take. Corporation Tax, from Banking industry profits, have rocketed down from around 20% of overall amount to around 5%, something that isn't good for the country! In numbers, that's around Â£21 Billion in PAYE/NIC, CT and the Bank Levy (on bonuses), so pretty significant!
		
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Yeah, but there is the small matter of crashing the world economy through their corruption and incompetence, and everyone with a house, private pension or savings pays for it. And although they pay some tax, they prefer not to pay as much (in proportion terms) as the rest of us.


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2015)

jp5 said:



			It's not much of a gamble though, is it? In fact it's as far from a gamble as can be. You do well - you pay it back. You don't do well - you don't pay it back.

At no point are you asked to pay back more than you earn. No where close in fact. So not sure how that would constitute living outside modest means?
		
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Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back. And the gamble is also that while you are whiling away 3 or 4 years doing a degree in hotel services before failing to get a job because there are hundreds of people with similar degrees looking for the few jobs, you are not doing a job which earns a decent wage. 

Wasting time costs money too - economists call it opportunity cost.


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## jp5 (Jul 13, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back. And the gamble is also that while you are whiling away 3 or 4 years doing a degree in hotel services before failing to get a job because there are hundreds of people with similar degrees looking for the few jobs, you are not doing a job which earns a decent wage. 

Wasting time costs money too - economists call it opportunity cost.
		
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Perhaps more needs to be done to educate the 'working class' that a student loan is no traditional debt then. I was fully aware that the debt I was taking on was, for all intents and purposes, a tax of a few percent for a term somewhere in the region of 10-20 years, that would be written off if unpaid after 25 years.

I saw it as a great leveler - no matter your background, you were given a free hit at choosing a worthy education and improving your career prospects.

I agree that there are people who 'while away' the 3/4 years and come out at a disadvantage compared to those that had been working during that time. Those were most definitely a minority in my cohort.

The answer to that is more vocational training options. University isn't for everyone. Young people aren't stupid - give them options, give them facts about future prospects - and they will generally know what's best for them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2015)

jp5 said:



*Perhaps more needs to be done to educate the 'working class' that a student loan is no traditional debt then. I was fully aware that the debt I was taking on was, for all intents and purposes, a tax of a few percent for a term somewhere in the region of 10-20 years, that would be written off if unpaid after 25 years.*

I saw it as a great leveler - no matter your background, you were given a free hit at choosing a worthy education and improving your career prospects.

I agree that there are people who 'while away' the 3/4 years and come out at a disadvantage compared to those that had been working during that time. Those were most definitely a minority in my cohort.

The answer to that is more vocational training options. University isn't for everyone. Young people aren't stupid - give them options, give them facts about future prospects - and they will generally know what's best for them.
		
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BiB I do agree with - 'loan' has pretty negative connotations if you don't (as a family) have a great deal of income or your employment is not so secure.  It implies an amount of money that you *must* pay back in full in a relatively short period of time regardless of your financial circumstances.


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## jp5 (Jul 13, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BiB I do agree with - 'loan' has pretty negative connotations if you don't (as a family) have a great deal of income or your employment is not so secure.  It implies an amount of money that you *must* pay back in full in a relatively short period of time regardless of your financial circumstances.
		
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Yup - it's essentially a tax, not a loan. Lose your job, you have nothing to pay. Unlike a mortgage, traditional loan, credit card debt etc.

There is a complete lack of personal finance education in schools - the above should form part of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Yup - it's essentially a tax, not a loan. Lose your job, you have nothing to pay. Unlike a mortgage, traditional loan, credit card debt etc.

There is a complete lack of personal finance education in schools - the above should form part of it.
		
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I completely agree.  I am sure that a fear of taking a huge 'loan' does have a significant negative impact on the thinking of many students from poorer families - and it just needn't be so.


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## delc (Jul 13, 2015)

Surely the skills shortages we have in the UK are practical skills such as building, plumbing, engineering, electrical work and customer services. That is why we have so many foreigners working here, who have been taught these skills in their own countries. Degrees in Needlework or Media Studies are pretty irrelevant to this need!


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## Snelly (Jul 13, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back..
		
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If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.   Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright.  Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan. 


I paid student loans by the way and didn't begrudge it one bit.   That said, I think times have changed and I regularly interview graduates that are next to useless and put this down to the devaluation of a degree as rightly pointed out in this thread by Ethan and others. 

I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.


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## Rooter (Jul 13, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.
		
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I'm getting worried about the frequency of agreement to Snelly's posts of late. Should i seek help?

100% behind the idea of University Degrees should be in a subject that you are wanting to work in and will be beneficial to you (or society) in the long run, ie Medicine, law, engineering etc etc, not just a 2:1 in something silly for the sake of it. Take my brother for example, he has a 1st in Politics! LOL he is now Editor of a motorcycle magazine.


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## delc (Jul 13, 2015)

When I was at school those who passed their 11+ (about 30%)  went to grammar school and probably about 10% of these went on to University. The next brightest went to Secondary Technical Schools where they were taught practical skills and the real thickos went to Secondary Modern Schools. This probably wasn't totally fair to late developers, etc, but it sort of worked, and didn't waste resources trying to teach the unteachable.  Oddly enough, those who went to Secondary Tech schools often did better in later life than the Grammar School kids, other than the real high flyers.

Unfortunately this system was done away with in the interests of the Socialist ideals of "Equality" and "Equality of Opportunity". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, to quote George Orwell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2015)

delc said:



			When I was at school those who passed their 11+ (about 30%)  went to grammar school and probably about 10% of these went on to University. The next brightest went to Secondary Technical Schools where they were taught practical skills and the real thickos went to Secondary Modern Schools. This probably wasn't totally fair to late developers, etc, but it sort of worked, and didn't waste resources trying to teach the unteachable.  Oddly enough, those who went to Secondary Tech schools often did better in later life than the Grammar School kids, other than the real high flyers.

Unfortunately this system was done away with in the interests of the Socialist ideals of "Equality" and "Equality of Opportunity". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, to quote George Orwell.
		
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Yup - it was 5% of Scottish Secondary School pupils in my day who went to Uni (I recall being told back then).  And so free tuition and grants were affordable.  I was fortunate enough to be bright enough to go given my folks couldn't afford to pay anything for me to go - in fact I had to give my mum some of my grant for my keep as I lived at home all through my uni education.


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2015)

Snelly said:



			If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.   Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright.  Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan. 


I paid student loans by the way and didn't begrudge it one bit.   That said, I think times have changed and I regularly interview graduates that are next to useless and put this down to the devaluation of a degree as rightly pointed out in this thread by Ethan and others. 

I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.
		
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Your post contradicts itself. In the first para you say that a uni education is a safe bet, then in the second that you interview graduates and many are next to useless, so presumably you don't hire them. 

I was exactly one of those working class kids. Neither of my parents went to uni, and I was the eldest and my parents didn't believe in taking loans out for stuff and there was no bank of Mum and Dad available. 

I do agree with the emphasis on vocational qualifications, though. My generation went to uni to get qualifications that would advance them in a career, not to learn stuff for its own end. The latter is fine, though, so long as you pay for it yourself.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 13, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Your post contradicts itself. In the first para you say that a uni education is a safe bet, then in the second that you interview graduates and many are next to useless, so presumably you don't hire them.
		
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I think you've misread his first paragraph?

He was pointing out that if you can't work out that the loan (not the education you receive) is a safe bet. It may be that he doesn't hire them, in which case they don't pay back the "loan". That's a pretty safe bet.


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 13, 2015)

Most graduates I have seen in non related careers to their degree have been worse than useless. A degree for the sake of it and years of being a student.


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## delc (Jul 13, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			Most graduates I have seen in non related careers to their degree have been worse than useless. A degree for the sake of it and years of being a student.
		
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Keeps them off the unemployment register for 3 or 4 years, which is all the Government (and their spin doctors) care about!  Might learn something useful along the way if they are lucky?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2015)

Snelly said:



			If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.   Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright.  Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan.
		
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Fear is not always logical - and some of the brightest can hold irrational fears.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 13, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fear is not always logical - and some of the brightest can hold irrational fears.
		
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I don't know what this is suggesting. We should completely change the system (which you must be agreeing is fair, by saying fear isn't logical?) because of irrational fears?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I don't know what this is suggesting. We should completely change the system (which you must be agreeing is fair, by saying fear isn't logical?) because of irrational fears?
		
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I'm saying that bright kids from poorer backgrounds may well understand what they are told about how the student loan system works - but fear about loans and what they have meant in the past, may be a barrier that they and their parents may not be able to get past.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 13, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm saying that bright kids from poorer backgrounds may well understand what they are told about how the student loan system works - but fear about loans and what they have meant in the past, may be a barrier that they and their parents may not be able to get past.
		
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So that's the problem, I understand that. What are you saying should be done to fix it?

I'm of the opinion that if that happens, so be it. It's unfortunate, but there is no foolproof plan for removing irrational fears without damaging the system. students have teh current system explained to them time after time throughout sixth form (with the added ability of the internet on which to research all of this), that I can't see what further could be done.


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I think you've misread his first paragraph?

He was pointing out that if you can't work out that the loan (not the education you receive) is a safe bet. It may be that he doesn't hire them, in which case they don't pay back the "loan". That's a pretty safe bet.
		
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My point is that it can't be a safe bet if there is a cohort of unemployable graduates caused by the inflation in numbers and the dilution in quality of courses. Once upon a time, it was a safe bet. It ain't now. Therefore it is logical to be cautious about taking on a loan.


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## delc (Jul 13, 2015)

I can only speak for myself as a fairly middle class person, but I wouldn't fancy 3 years with no income stream coming in and a Â£45k debt to pay off when I do start working!


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## Snelly (Jul 13, 2015)

Ethan said:



			My point is that it can't be a safe bet if there is a cohort of unemployable graduates caused by the inflation in numbers and the dilution in quality of courses. Once upon a time, it was a safe bet. It ain't now. Therefore it is logical to be cautious about taking on a loan.
		
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Agreed, almost anyway. 

Safe bet: Engineering, Mandarin, Law, Medicine, Accountancy, Architecture etc....  High risk - anything that isn't vocational.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 13, 2015)

delc said:



			I can only speak for myself as a fairly middle class person, but I wouldn't fancy 3 years with no income stream coming in and a Â£45k debt to pay off when I do start working!
		
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And there we have it, someone else who doesn't understand how this works.

It's not Â£45k to pay off. It's a small % of your salary, if you're succesful. The Â£45k becomes fairly meaningless, until you get near the point of settling it.


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## delc (Jul 13, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And there we have it, someone else who doesn't understand how this works.

It's not Â£45k to pay off. It's a small % of your salary, if you're succesful. The Â£45k becomes fairly meaningless, until you get near the point of settling it.
		
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No point in getting a degree if I couldn't get a well paid job (when I would be paying the debt off) as a result. As many student loans are not going to be paid off, it probably wouldn't cost the Government any more to re-instate maintenance grants and payment of tuition fees!  The more successful graduates will be paying higher rate taxes anyway!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 14, 2015)

I thought the whole point of education was to learn how to take on board information and comprehend what you were being taught... You then applied those learned 'skills' in your chosen profession... But, then what would I know being a secondary modern thicko who 'studied' agriculture and horticulture... Then went and did something completely different in adult life... Back in my day 5 O levels opened the doors to a lot of opportunity...


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## jp5 (Jul 14, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			I thought the whole point of education was to learn how to take on board information and comprehend what you were being taught... You then applied those learned 'skills' in your chosen profession...
		
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Is that not what's happening already?

On the topic of students, I see the Tories have another barnstorming proposal:
"Foreign students will be banned from working in the UK and forced to leave as soon as they finish course under Theresa May's tough new visa rules"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eresa-mays-tough-new-visa-rules-10385232.html

An astonishingly stupid idea to dissuade the best students from studying and working here, in an attempt (I can only assume) to get somewhere near their target migration numbers which they spectacularly missed previously. But I'd rather net migration continue at the current level than target this young, well-educated, aspirational demographic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And there we have it, someone else who doesn't understand how this works.

It's not Â£45k to pay off. It's a small % of your salary, if you're succesful. The Â£45k becomes fairly meaningless, until you get near the point of settling it.
		
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And as the loan payments only kick in when your income increases above the threshold - to the individual all that happens is that the increase in take-home pay through the wage increase that takes you over the threshold is lost - wholly or in part.  Indeed your take-home may not be impacted at all by the loan repayment kicking in.  At worse take-home may be reduced a little.  At that point the graduates starting take-home pay is essentially re-baselined - and like tax and NI the loan repayment becomes another deduction that goes from the top line and so salary which in effect you never actually see - so never felt the benefit of.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 14, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as the loan payments only kick in when your income increases above the threshold - to the individual all that happens is that the increase in take-home pay through the wage increase that takes you over the threshold is lost - wholly or in part.  Indeed your take-home may not be impacted at all by the loan repayment kicking in.  At worse take-home may be reduced a little.  At that point the graduates starting take-home pay is essentially re-baselined.
		
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Sorry SILH, but I disagree. "take-home may be reduced a little" just doesn't happen. As you pay a set % of income over a certain point (not on the income before), you can't reduce the amount you take home because of that tax


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Is that not what's happening already?

On the topic of students, I see the Tories have another barnstorming proposal:
"Foreign students will be banned from working in the UK and forced to leave as soon as they finish course under Theresa May's tough new visa rules"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eresa-mays-tough-new-visa-rules-10385232.html

An astonishingly stupid idea to dissuade the best students from studying and working here, in an attempt (I can only assume) to get somewhere near their target migration numbers which they spectacularly missed previously. But I'd rather net migration continue at the current level than target this young, well-educated, aspirational demographic.
		
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Whats wrong with that?

These people have been given the opportunity to come here and have an education from a better university than their own countries could provide.  If they then want to stay here after then they can apply though the existing immigration system so that we can pick the best.    If they are from the EU they can stay anyway!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Sorry SILH, but I disagree. "take-home may be reduced a little" just doesn't happen. As you pay a set % of income over a certain point (not on the income before), you can't reduce the amount you take home because of that tax
		
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I have misunderstood the detail of how repayments are made - and in fact it makes things even less of an issue as far as I can see.  

The graduate repays the loan as a percentage of the difference between his salary and the threshold.  

So let's say a graduate's salary jumps from Â£17,335 (the threshold) to Â£21,000.  His monthly salary changes from Â£1444 to Â£1750.  Let's assume 25% deductions.  His take-home goes from Â£1083 to Â£1312.  His loan repayment goes from Â£0 to Â£27.  This reduces his take-home from Â£1312 to Â£1285.  

What the graduate sees in his bank account following his salary increase is an increase from Â£1083 to Â£1285.  What's the problem? I must be missing something.


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## jp5 (Jul 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats wrong with that?

These people have been given the opportunity to come here and have an education from a better university than their own countries could provide.  If they then want to stay here after then they can apply though the existing immigration system so that we can pick the best.    If they are from the EU they can stay anyway!
		
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'These people' have chosen to study in our country, and subsidise fees for UK students. They contribute to a diverse and global workforce, bringing great experience and skills with them.

The UK will fall behind other economies if these measures are brought in, and the UK will become a less attractive place for these intelligent people to study and work. Take America for instance, where STEM graduates can live and work for up to 2.5 years after graduation as part of their student visa. Enough time to find a secure job, build experience, contribute to the economy, and sort out a longer term visa.

May can't do anything about the influx of unskilled labour from the EU, so is going after international students, who will contribute to the country, instead in an attempt to reduce the migration figures.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2015)

jp5 said:



			'These people' have chosen to study in our country, and subsidise fees for UK students. They contribute to a diverse and global workforce, bringing great experience and skills with them.

The UK will fall behind other economies if these measures are brought in, and the UK will become a less attractive place for these intelligent people to study and work. Take America for instance, where STEM graduates can live and work for up to 2.5 years after graduation as part of their student visa. Enough time to find a secure job, build experience, contribute to the economy, and sort out a longer term visa.

May can't do anything about the influx of unskilled labour from the EU, so is going after international students, who will contribute to the country, instead in an attempt to reduce the migration figures.
		
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How exactly do they subsidise fees for UK students?   All they do is pay their own costs, UK students pay a proportion of their costs and the rest is payed by the tax payer.

I still don't follow your reasoning.  If they want to stay and work here we have an immigration system that they can apply through, this allows us to select the best of them that fit our skills requirements.  Remember many of them will have studied for subjects where we don't have a current need .   Also: you are suggesting all foreign students are the very best that graduate from our Universities; some will be very good just as some UK students will be, some will be poor also.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



*How exactly do they subsidise fees for UK students?*   All they do is pay their own costs, UK students pay a proportion of their costs and the rest is payed by the tax payer.

I still don't follow your reasoning.  If they want to stay and work here we have an immigration system that they can apply through, this allows us to select the best of them that fit our skills requirements.  *Remember many of them will have studied for subjects where we don't have a current need* .   Also: you are suggesting all foreign students are the very best that graduate from our Universities; some will be very good just as some UK students will be, some will be poor also.
		
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Because universities charge foreign students a lot more than they charge UK students for a course.  So the additional income from foreign students allows then to keep down the cost to UK students.

Also do you have any evidence whatsoever that many foreign students are studying subjects in areas where we don't have a current need?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because universities charge foreign students a lot more than they charge UK students for a course.  So the additional income from foreign students allows then to keep down the cost to UK students.

Also do you have any evidence whatsoever that many foreign students are studying subjects in areas where we don't have a current need?
		
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Foreign students pay the full costs for their courses.   UK and EU students pay a proportion and the tax payer subsidises the rest so they are not subsidised by foreign students.

Foreign students study in most English Universities and as such will be studying subjects that are not always required, just like UK and EU students.  Irrespective of this I said that they are entitled to apply through the current immigration system and if they have skills that are required then they have a chance to work in the UK.


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