# Immigration good or bad



## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2013)

Where's it going right and wrong.


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 24, 2013)

It's Christmas eve for God's sake - give it a rest.


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## rosecott (Dec 24, 2013)

It's Christmas - a new troll on the horizon.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2013)

What's a troll


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## rosecott (Dec 24, 2013)

Tashyboy said:



			What's a troll
		
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That would be you.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2013)

rosecott said:



			That would be you.
		
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Thanks for that rosecott, if I can I will reply to two of you comments re my posts,

1, you don't know me so to call me a troll without explaining to me what one is shows your ignorance, especially when I have asked you.

2, where have I been all year whilst you have had sensible discussions all year, if you look at my joining date it is last week. The same time as when the post re the Marks and Sparks thread was started. 

If you have nothing interesting to write without having a dig at folk who have asked a straightforward question, then jog on. If a newbie, (like me ) has asked a question that has been asked earlier this year then be kind enough to attach a link.

PS merry Christmas.


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## stevie_r (Dec 24, 2013)

Crap, all out of popcorn


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Crap, all out of popcorn 

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It was getting boring anyway Stevie. :-{)


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## drawboy (Dec 24, 2013)

Let me tell the good people reading this something they may not be aware of. Immigrants  come into the country because  business desire workers that will work hard for minimum or below minimum wage. Now, there is no doubt that because we consider ourselves to be mainly above the kind of work they will do for the wages on offer and the standard of living offered  on benefits then these positions would not be filled without immigrant workers.
However, whilst immigrants may be happy and better off to do this work they bring their children with them. They then go into our education system they then leave school able to speak English as well as our children and more importantly with the same qualifications as our own children. They then enter the job market and compete for the same jobs as your children will. Their parents may have been happy to pick cabbages but they will not be and in a shrinking job market they will push our children onto the unemployment list.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2013)

Draw boy thanks for a sensible reply, first one apart from the popcorn comment which I personally liked.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 24, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Let me tell the good people reading this something they may not be aware of. Immigrants  come into the country because  business desire workers that will work hard for minimum or below minimum wage. Now, there is no doubt that because we consider ourselves to be mainly above the kind of work they will do for the wages on offer and the standard of living offered  on benefits then these positions would not be filled without immigrant workers.
However, whilst immigrants may be happy and better off to do this work they bring their children with them. They then go into our education system they then leave school able to speak English as well as our children and more importantly with the same qualifications as our own children. They then enter the job market and compete for the same jobs as your children will. Their parents may have been happy to pick cabbages but they will not be and in a shrinking job market they will push our children onto the unemployment list.
		
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All very true and exactly where this country is heading. However, if we didn't hand out benefits at the drop of a hat, maybe all those British people would get off their fat, lazy backsides and fill the jobs that the immigrants are prepared to do and the situation you so eloquently described wouldn't arise.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2013)

drive4show said:



			All very true and exactly where this country is heading. However, if we didn't hand out benefits at the drop of a hat, maybe all those British people would get off their fat, lazy backsides and fill the jobs that the immigrants are prepared to do and the situation you so eloquently described wouldn't arise.
		
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Here Here!!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 24, 2013)

drive4show said:



			All very true and exactly where this country is heading. However, if we didn't hand out benefits at the drop of a hat, maybe all those British people would get off their fat, lazy backsides and fill the jobs that the immigrants are prepared to do and the situation you so eloquently described wouldn't arise.
		
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http://www.urbanhope.co.uk/blog/bit...raised-on-benefits-well-mainly-you-re-scared-


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 24, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.urbanhope.co.uk/blog/bit...raised-on-benefits-well-mainly-you-re-scared-

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That is all very noble but the fact remains we only have ourselves to blame for the current predicament. Our society has allowed the benefit culture to flourish.

What is wrong with making benefit claimants pick up litter, scrub off graffiti, assist the aged......there is a multitude of things they could be doing that would allow them to contribute to society. 

Oh.....hang on....doesn't working for a living infringe on their human rights to sit around watching telly all day scratching their nuts while I work to support them?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.urbanhope.co.uk/blog/bit...raised-on-benefits-well-mainly-you-re-scared-

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That article is very loaded to disabled people then suggesting everyone on benefits has no choice.   People that are genuinely disabled have not had their benefits cut, many that were spuriously claiming disability benefits are being filtered out and there have been a great number of them.

What D4S says is true, there are vast numbers of people in this country that decide at an early age that they don't want to be educated and work for a living, they prefer a life as spongers to those that get out and provide for them selves.   This country has bankrupted its self providing for these people and what ever the hand wringing Liberal Elite think we cannot continue to live beyond our means to subsidise them.


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## stevie_r (Dec 24, 2013)

Thought this thread was about immigration? Didn't take long to get off track


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2013)

BAD.

Our infrastructure can't support anymore immigration.... Do I hear the counter argument of immigrants work and pay taxes?

Okay, lets assume an immigrant with family arrives and finds full time employment on a wage of Â£25k - average wage. He's going to pay about Â£4.5k in taxes and N.I. His two children will cost the LEA Â£6,274 per school year. Then there's the odd medical bill.

Our schools are full, so more schools need building. Our NHS is struggling. And Pension age is climbing, meaning more people will work longer to make up the funding gap in our education system and our NHS.

I'm fed up of hearing a politician say that immigrants pay taxes. Yes they do, and those at the lower end where the majority of them are, irrespective of whether or not they have their family with them, pay little in and take more out in terms of housing benefit etc.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			BAD.

Our infrastructure can't support anymore immigration.... Do I hear the counter argument of immigrants work and pay taxes?

Okay, lets assume an immigrant with family arrives and finds full time employment on a wage of Â£25k - average wage. He's going to pay about Â£4.5k in taxes and N.I. His two children will cost the LEA Â£6,274 per school year. Then there's the odd medical bill.

Our schools are full, so more schools need building. Our NHS is struggling. And Pension age is climbing, meaning more people will work longer to make up the funding gap in our education system and our NHS.

I'm fed up of hearing a politician say that immigrants pay taxes. Yes they do, and those at the lower end where the majority of them are, irrespective of whether or not they have their family with them, pay little in and take more out in terms of housing benefit etc.
		
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That post addresses the main issue.  'Our infrastructure cant support any more immigration'

The country is full to bursting and set to continue with high birth rates and increasing population.  This is without any more net migration increase.   Lets see what the New Year brings us!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2013)

Seems to be good for Scotland as far as I can see.
The immigrants seem to want to work and get on, many are highly skilled.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 25, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Let me tell the good people reading this something they may not be aware of. Immigrants  come into the country because  business desire workers that will work hard for minimum or below minimum wage. Now, there is no doubt that because we consider ourselves to be mainly above the kind of work they will do for the wages on offer and the standard of living offered  on benefits then these positions would not be filled without immigrant workers.
However, whilst immigrants may be happy and better off to do this work they bring their children with them. They then go into our education system they then leave school able to speak English as well as our children and more importantly with the same qualifications as our own children. They then enter the job market and compete for the same jobs as your children will. Their parents may have been happy to pick cabbages but they will not be and in a shrinking job market they will push our children onto the unemployment list.
		
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This all assumes though that the number of jobs available in our economy is finite.  Which of course it is not, more people working here means more cash in the economy increasing the number of jobs available to all.  This can be seen in the unemployment rate which has changed very little over recent decades (except during world wide recessions) despite the relative high level of immigration.   
If you are also saying that immigration in the long term leads to an upskilling of the average worker then this has obvious economic benefits for us all.


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## Ethan (Dec 25, 2013)

I don't know why (well, I do, really) people like the Daily Mail get so het up about immigration. The Daily Mail are the people who once wanted the UK to experience a huge acute immigration of Nazis, IIRC. Seems they are less keen on the Germans these days. 

Immigration is, and has always been, a necessary and useful factor in the economy and culture of this and almost every other country. The US is built on immigration, and the UK has a rich and varied heritage for the same reason. Panic stories of masses of Eastern Europeans flooding in to pillage the UK have been shown to be completely false so far, just as fears in the US that the Irish, Chinese, Russians, Mexicans etc etc would destroy the country. All have enriched the country and improved the culture and economy. The UK has still plenty of room and the idea that the place is bursting is laughable outside a few packed areas. But those packed areas are also the places with the greatest need for the sort of labour that immigrants will provide, so that's all right then. 

It is obviously sensible to measure and monitor what is going on, so the welfare, NHS and other infrastructure systems can respond, but these ideas of limiting immigration were purely to feed the appetite of ignorant xenophobes, and the Gov knew these ideas would never fly, but they put them out for political capital. 

It is also good for humankind to mix their genes in a more diverse pool.


DOI: of Celtic peasant origins.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

Well the masses from Romania etc could possibly happen when they are allowed to come to the UK. 

The reason why the flooding hasn't happened is because they haven't been able to come here yet

Immigration overall isn't a bad thing - most cases are for the better but there will always be people that the Daily Mail will focus on and try to print them as the majority

IMO anyone can live and work in the country as long as they are working for the better of this country and pay their taxes and pay their way.

I'm not a very big fan of people arriving to join the benefit culture and gain free medical etc


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 25, 2013)

Overall I would say that it is a neutral position for the country.

I agree with those that say there is an awful lot of scaremongering by some and, ironically, many of those who I are most vociferous in their complaints happily talk of themselves emigrating. Curious!!

On the other hand there may need to be some control of numbers where certain areas are receiving a disproportionate number of immigrants with the inevitable strain upon services.

However, I was born and worked in Birmingham and this like most cities has for over 50 years seen many immigrants and despite what the smart a**es may say about Brum it has not been adversely effected by the incomers.

Merry Christmas to one and all, wherever you come from!


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## drawboy (Dec 25, 2013)

Just a quick question, more a poll so to speak. Is it right and proper that a Bulgarian/Romanian is entitled to the same level of benefits that I would get if I was to become unemployed after over 40 years of paying tax and national insurance after just 12 weeks in the country and possibly paying absolutely nothing into the British benefits system? Frankly I do not, I'm sorry if it offends anyone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Just a quick question, more a poll so to speak. Is it right and proper that a Bulgarian/Romanian is entitled to the same level of benefits that I would get if I was to become unemployed after over 40 years of paying tax and national insurance after just 12 weeks in the country and possibly paying absolutely nothing into the British benefits system? Frankly I do not, I'm sorry if it offends anyone.
		
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Any benefits they get should be earned first - incremental on the time paying taxes and NI


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 25, 2013)

It's all very well saying that immigrants come here and work, pay taxes, don't drain the system etc but that doesn't change the fundamental issue. If they weren't in the country then the British people that are too lazy to work would have to fill those jobs. Stop the benefits, make them work for a living and have them start contributing to society. 

Maybe that would put the 'Great' back into Britain  :thup:


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 25, 2013)

drive4show said:



			It's all very well saying that immigrants come here and work, pay taxes, don't drain the system etc but that doesn't change the fundamental issue. If they weren't in the country then the British people that are too lazy to work would have to fill those jobs. Stop the benefits, make them work for a living and have them start contributing to society. 

Maybe that would put the 'Great' back into Britain  :thup:
		
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But if you look around the world you would we have consistently one of the lowest unemployment rates on the globe and there has been no significant a my increases when new people co.e into the country.  In an ideal world those that have previously contributed would not get benefits but  I would not want to live in a place where significant numbers were left on the streets to beg.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

If we stopped immigration today the country would still grow too fast due to the high birth rate which it has helped fuel.

We don't need to import doctors, nurses, engineers etc, we are quite capable of training these ourselves.  Morally many of these should be working to better the countries that invested in their training.

We cant afford the infrastructure for these additional people as we  are broke so lets take the blinkers off.   Wait for the Roma to turn up in numbers and see how crime rates will soar next year, just wait and see.


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## Hobbit (Dec 25, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I don't know why (well, I do, really) people like the Daily Mail get so het up about immigration. The Daily Mail are the people who once wanted the UK to experience a huge acute immigration of Nazis, IIRC. Seems they are less keen on the Germans these days. 

Immigration is, and has always been, a necessary and useful factor in the economy and culture of this and almost every other country. The US is built on immigration, and the UK has a rich and varied heritage for the same reason. Panic stories of masses of Eastern Europeans flooding in to pillage the UK have been shown to be completely false so far, just as fears in the US that the Irish, Chinese, Russians, Mexicans etc etc would destroy the country. All have enriched the country and improved the culture and economy. The UK has still plenty of room and the idea that the place is bursting is laughable outside a few packed areas. But those packed areas are also the places with the greatest need for the sort of labour that immigrants will provide, so that's all right then. 

It is obviously sensible to measure and monitor what is going on, so the welfare, NHS and other infrastructure systems can respond, but these ideas of limiting immigration were purely to feed the appetite of ignorant xenophobes, and the Gov knew these ideas would never fly, but they put them out for political capital. 

It is also good for humankind to mix their genes in a more diverse pool.


DOI: of Celtic peasant origins.
		
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There's an awful lot of generalisations there Ethan.

Daily Mail readers; it seems to be common label applied to so many people who dare criticise, but in truth... rubbish.

Immigration is necessary; why? If a Gov turned round to the feckless and said the (supposed) demeaning jobs have to be done by them or they won't get their benefits share... Its the inner cities with this greatest need you speak of, and bizarrely the greatest unemployment.

"Countries are enriched;" that sounds like "cultural diversity." Just what do we take from other cultures and what do they take from ours? Many choose to live in their own ghetto's, and run those ghetto's with their own Sharia laws(generalisation on my part)... Cultural diversity is just a political term that hides the dilution of our own culture.

"Plenty of room;" the person per square footage sounds great but quite frankly couldn't be further than the truth. There's acres of room up on the Nth Yorks Moors and the like but... There's a housing shortage where the jobs are. Class sizes are hitting 40 in many inner cities and large towns. As part of the 60's baby boom, cyclical from the 40's baby boom, I remember class sizes in the 40's. Seriously, get a grip.

"So that welfare, and the NHS and other infrastructure systems can respond;" responding after the fact in a country that is already struggling financially. Immigration if we can afford it, no problem. At present, no I don't agree.

"Ignorant xenophobe;" for having a different opinion. Maybe a bit of a stretch to take that from your post... I've lived in several countries in Europe, and also have a Fijian (adopted) sister. Believe me I know what rascism and xenophobia is, and have several scars to prove it.

I may not be a Daily Mail reader but, thankfully, I'm not a cuddly left wing yoghurt knitting Guardian reader - includes a huge big tongue in cheek smiley


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## Khamelion (Dec 25, 2013)

immigration good or bad, well that depends:-

Good: If the people coming into the country what to commit to the system and pay their way, have jobs lined up upon arrival, can speak English or are willing to learn, those who want to help.

Bad: Those coming to the country because they see the UK as a soft touch for benefits, housing, medical care, the justice system etc... basically all the spongers who are fleeing from their own country, because of war, poverty or whatever.

My dad and his brother used to have this same argument as this thread, my dad would say "this is a stupid bloody country we live in", to which my uncle would reply "No, it's not, it's a great country, just run by stupid bloody people". Never a truer word spoken.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

People fleeing war torn countries are "Asylum Seekers" as opposed to immigrants and need protection. That's not a bad thing


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## cleanstrike (Dec 25, 2013)

I should probably be classified as illegal immigrant as, indeed, should my entire family. It is rumoured that we travelled over by boat from France under cover of darkness amongst a large group of other French illegals and sneaked ashore whilst nobody was looking. Passport control was nowhere to be seen and we didn't even see a single customs official all night. I couldn't believe how easy it was to get into your country without an invitation. You people seem happy to allow just about anyone in - no questions asked. I really do think you should be more careful about who you let across your borders.

The place: *Hastings

*The date: *1066*


The question is, should I be allowed to remain or should I be sent back to where I came from?


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			This all assumes though that the number of jobs available in our economy is finite.  *Which of course it is not, more people working here means more cash in the economy increasing the number of jobs available to all.*  This can be seen in the unemployment rate which has changed very little over recent decades (except during world wide recessions) despite the relative high level of immigration.   
If you are also saying that immigration in the long term leads to an upskilling of the average worker then this has obvious economic benefits for us all.
		
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That assumes that the increased money in the economy stays in the economy.  IIRC there was something done recently on a council run call centre in Birmingham that was outsourced.  Although more expensive to run in England, something like 67p in every pound stayed in the country.  When outsourced, all that vanished, and it actually benefitted the economy less, despite the apparent cost saving.  And I believe that a lot of the immigrants that work here do so to send the money home, where it is worth much more to the rest of the family, so that money will bring little or no benefit to the economy here.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

cleanstrike said:



			I should probably be classified as illegal immigrant as, indeed, should my entire family. It is rumoured that we travelled over by boat from France under cover of darkness amongst a large group of other French illegals and sneaked ashore whilst nobody was looking. Passport control was nowhere to be seen and we didn't even see a single customs official all night. I couldn't believe how easy it was to get into your country without an invitation. You people seem happy to allow just about anyone in - no questions asked. I really do think you should be more careful about who you let across your borders.

The place: *Hastings

*The date: *1066*


The question is, should I be allowed to remain or should I be sent back to where I came from?
		
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You may be interested in the fact that more people have immigrated to the UK since 2000 than the whole period back from then to 1066.

Regarding your question:  I would imagine your bloodline has been mixed out of all recognition since 1066 so calling your self a Norman would be a little of an exaggeration.     Regarding your right to reside:  Please stay, I am sure you have contributed but if you feel an urge to return to your kinsfolk, Feel Free.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 25, 2013)

Many thanks to everyone who has responded to this in a civilised way, I say that coz I know how heated this topic can get. I do have a few opinions to say on said topic but al leave it a day or so as mr an Missis tash is getting a bit cuddly (she's wearing her crimbo onsie ). Merry Christmas to you all.


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## El Bandito (Dec 25, 2013)

Merry Christmas one and all! To the OP, in my opinion, immigration is good for the country. Lots of excellent points above around the benefit system, but a mobile workforce competing for work is a massive driver for small business.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

El Bandito said:



			Merry Christmas one and all! To the OP, in my opinion, immigration is good for the country. Lots of excellent points above around the benefit system, but a mobile workforce competing for work is a massive driver for small business.
		
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So you think there is a shortage of available labour for small business? Really!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 25, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People fleeing war torn countries are "Asylum Seekers" as opposed to immigrants and need protection. That's not a bad thing
		
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Completely agree with you BUT (and as you can see it's a big but ) a genuine asylum seeker should seek refuge in the first safe country that they arrive in after leaving their own country. I fully accept that we as a country should be taking our fair share of asylum seekers that arrive in the EU but this country should never be the first safe country they arrive in. Many travel through Europe and cross the channel in the back of a lorry to arrive here and claim asylum. Maybe there should be a central location (maybe Belgium as it doesn't seem to do much else) where anyone claiming to be an asylum seeker is processed and then sent on to a designated country. For example a % go to Germany, % to France, % to the UK etc. 

Immigration is a totally different issue and I'm not even getting into that as I am born and living in England of Scottish and Irish decent.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			So you think there is a shortage of available labour for small business? Really!
		
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There is a shortage of people willing to work minimum wage to do labour work because they won't get as much as benefits


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is a shortage of people willing to work minimum wage to do labour work because they won't get as much as benefits
		
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So thats wrong.  If you are fit; work or starve was the option when I grew up, so we worked.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

It is wrong but that's what is happening and there are people willing to do the work


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## MegaSteve (Dec 25, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is a shortage of people willing to work minimum wage to do labour work because they won't get as much as benefits
		
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Personally I see it as a shortage of employers 'willing' to pay a 'living wage'...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Personally I see it as a shortage of employers 'willing' to pay a 'living wage'...
		
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What is a living wage ? 

Can we not live on the minimum wage then ?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 25, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can we not live on the minimum wage then ?
		
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Have you tried to?

I am 'lucky' as I have never had to and I certainly wouldn't wish to try...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Have you tried to?

I am 'lucky' as I have never had to and I certainly wouldn't wish to try...
		
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No but I know people that do - they buy the essentials in regards food and rent etc but go without all the luxuries - Sky Telly etc.


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## Durango (Dec 25, 2013)

Migration into the country has rocketed since the mid 1990s and it has been completely uncontrolled. Net migration was -11k in 1992, in 2010 it was 227k! Some will say that's a positive, oh look how popular we are... We've seen massive demographic changes across the country but especially the South East. And immigrants, especially from the developing world, have more children which is why the population is growing so rapidly. You can't just think about the situation now, what will it be like in 10,20,30 years time? Where's the money going to come from to educate and house all these people, we're already a trillion quid in debt. Immigration has had plenty of benefits no doubt but the sheer scale of it over the last 20 years has just been ridiculous. The trouble with this subject is you always get the oddballs coming out of the woodwork throwing about the racist tag, daily mail this xenophobia that, which deters people from having proper debates about it.


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## Andy808 (Dec 25, 2013)

I'm backing out of this thread very quietly


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

Durango said:



			Migration into the country has rocketed since the mid 1990s and it has been completely uncontrolled. Net migration was -11k in 1992, in 2010 it was 227k! Some will say that's a positive, oh look how popular we are... We've seen massive demographic changes across the country but especially the South East. And immigrants, especially from the developing world, have more children which is why the population is growing so rapidly. You can't just think about the situation now, what will it be like in 10,20,30 years time? Where's the money going to come from to educate and house all these people, we're already a trillion quid in debt. Immigration has had plenty of benefits no doubt but the sheer scale of it over the last 20 years has just been ridiculous. The trouble with this subject is you always get the oddballs coming out of the woodwork throwing about the racist tag, daily mail this xenophobia that, which deters people from having proper debates about it.
		
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As stated here many times: Anyone who sees mass immigration as a problem gets cited as a Racist and  a Daily Mail reader.  Such put downs are immature and typical of the way Socialists discuss matters.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 25, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No but I know people that do - they buy the essentials in regards food and rent etc but go without all the luxuries - Sky Telly etc.
		
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My idea of a 'luxury' is being able to save for a 'rainy day' and I doubt the 'living wage' allows that let alone minimum wage...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 25, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			My idea of a 'luxury' is being able to save for a 'rainy day' and I doubt the 'living wage' allows that let alone minimum wage...
		
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Its better than starving and with all the benefits on offer to top it up we subsidise low paying Employers.


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## stevie_r (Dec 25, 2013)

I've not been near the forum since mid morning, too busy spending a great afternoon with family and eating superbly followed by an evening at my neighbours for drinks, more food and some good banter.

Bet it was a lot more fun than being on a golf forum moaning about immigration and benefits.  Get a life FGS


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I've not been near the forum since mid morning, too busy spending a great afternoon with family and eating superbly followed by an evening at my neighbours for drinks, more food and some good banter.

Bet it was a lot more fun than being on a golf forum moaning about immigration and benefits.  Get a life FGS 

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Maybe you could get back to yours and leave others to theirs. FGS.


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## El Bandito (Dec 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			So you think there is a shortage of available labour for small business? Really!
		
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No, ok I don't think there is a shortage of available labour, but with a workforce that is mobile, it is easier to find the right mix of skills, experience and motivation at an affordable price. This helps businesses prosper. 

To the point of immigration controls, I believe that a 'market' exists, with immigration flows reacting to changes in the market. During the property boom, there was huge net immigration into Ireland, with labour from Central and Eastern Europeans working in the industry. As the work dried up, a large portion of these moved on. Many of them to Scandinavia. I believe that currently there is an outflow of young Irish, heading to their traditional lands of opportunity, the USA, Canada and Australia.

As mentioned in some previous posts, I am more concerned about how the welfare system works and can impact the economy, in a broader sense, not just around immigrants.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 26, 2013)

Couple of points.
Is it not the case that immigration and emigration into and out of the UK nearly balance out.
Why is the 'living' wage more in London than the rest or the UK?


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## Imurg (Dec 26, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why is the 'living' wage more in London than the rest or the UK?
		
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Do you really, honestly need to ask that...?


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## Captainron (Dec 26, 2013)

Was good up to the point they let me in.......:lol:


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## Sharktooth (Dec 26, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Do you really, honestly need to ask that...?
		
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Something to do with the price of jellied eels?


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## Imurg (Dec 26, 2013)

Sharktooth said:



			Something to do with the price of jellied eels?
		
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Could be..
Or the price of virtually everything else..
Why?
No idea, ask an Economist.......


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 26, 2013)

So why is everything so expensive in London.
Surely with population mass it should be cheaper..........that's the bit I don't understand.

So Imurg... I would like you to explain it to me!


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## Imurg (Dec 26, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why is everything so expensive in London.
Surely with population mass it should be cheaper..........that's the bit I don't understand.

So Imurg... I would like you to explain it to me!
		
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I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my previous statement.......

"Why?

No idea - ask an Economist."


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Couple of points.
Is it not the case that immigration and emigration into and out of the UK nearly balance out.
		
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No thats not the case, its nothing like the case.   How do you think the population has grown so mush in the last ten years.   Look at this graph.




If you think about an average sized town of 30,000 people then multiply that by eight.  We have experienced net migration of that amount year on year.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 26, 2013)

Well here goes,
last November I had a large ankle operation performed by a nice Asian chappie, my teeth get sorted by a nice polish chappie (but doesn't get a Christmas card coz he hurts me). Me Bessie mate is a mixed race Jamaican gay lad. Etc etc. All these people though not Anglo Saxons have enhanced my life.  I am no different to many millions of other British citizens.

my problem begins when we allow literally anyone into Britain that des not enhance this country. Eg why do I get served a happy meal in Mcdonalds by a foreign national. 1, it is still the same price, no cheaper. 2, that means a British national is to lazy to do a minimum wage job so is happy to get by on benefits.

for me the problem of immigration and benefits go hand in hand. It is as obvious as the link between drugs and crime which politicians dismissed for years and years.

i have 3adult children, one is a copper in Sheffield Central, she has a one year old son and the stories she tells me about immigrants and crime make my toes curl. My middle lad is a lorry driver and my youngest daughter who is 20 yr old and has a 9 month old boy. She lives in a council house and all her benifits are paid for by us. Every thing that she has is paid for by us. Her mother rang a couple of months ago, but she could not answer the phone because she was has sky tv installed! paid for by us. Her actions and attitude have upset both my and my wife's families more than words can say. Looking at her friends, they share the same principals as her.
What I cannot get my head around is that we have just come out of a double dip recession where thousands and thousands of families have suffered massive hardship and yet benefits have hardly been touched. There have been token gestures, but stories of benefit and immigrant families wanting bigger houses just stick in my throat.

having seen my daughters attitude first hand, if benefit claimants are able to get by day to day without having the hunger for work then immigration will fill the jobs.

there has been much discussed already about Bulgarians and Romanians joining the EU and being able to come to the UK, but my eye is on events happening in the Ukraine. If they join the EU then I feel we will be royally screwed.

my other grief is membership of the EU. What do I actually get out of it I mean I really do need someone to point it out coz am 50 yr old and don't have a clue. So much so ave started a "Membership of the EU good or bad" topic.

so yeah for me immigration is both good and bad, but the bottom line for me is that the bad is starting to outweigh the good.


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## drawboy (Dec 26, 2013)

There is no doubt in my mind that our top politiciana of all persuasions are being given massive bungs from other countries to take these people into the country. You only have to see the massive influx of African people into the country from places we have no ties to such as the Congo. Why else would our own politicians undermine their own country. Surely they must be lining their own pockets out of this. Middle class England may not see the problems when they ride around in their Land Rovers back to their middle income suberban homes and close the curtains until they go back to the office but believe me for the rest of us who have to live  in the inner cities mass immigration is very very evident.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Tashyboy said:



			Well here goes,
last November I had a large ankle operation performed by a nice Asian chappie, my teeth get sorted by a nice polish chappie (but doesn't get a Christmas card coz he hurts me). Me Bessie mate is a mixed race Jamaican gay lad. Etc etc. All these people though not Anglo Saxons have enhanced my life.  I am no different to many millions of other British citizens.

my problem begins when we allow literally anyone into Britain that des not enhance this country. Eg why do I get served a happy meal in Mcdonalds by a foreign national. 1, it is still the same price, no cheaper. 2, that means a British national is to lazy to do a minimum wage job so is happy to get by on benefits.

for me the problem of immigration and benefits go hand in hand. It is as obvious as the link between drugs and crime which politicians dismissed for years and years.

i have 3adult children, one is a copper in Sheffield Central, she has a one year old son and the stories she tells me about immigrants and crime make my toes curl. My middle lad is a lorry driver and my youngest daughter who is 20 yr old and has a 9 month old boy. She lives in a council house and all her benifits are paid for by us. Every thing that she has is paid for by us. Her mother rang a couple of months ago, but she could not answer the phone because she was has sky tv installed! paid for by us. Her actions and attitude have upset both my and my wife's families more than words can say. Looking at her friends, they share the same principals as her.
What I cannot get my head around is that we have just come out of a double dip recession where thousands and thousands of families have suffered massive hardship and yet benefits have hardly been touched. There have been token gestures, but stories of benefit and immigrant families wanting bigger houses just stick in my throat.

having seen my daughters attitude first hand, if benefit claimants are able to get by day to day without having the hunger for work then immigration will fill the jobs.

there has been much discussed already about Bulgarians and Romanians joining the EU and being able to come to the UK, but my eye is on events happening in the Ukraine. If they join the EU then I feel we will be royally screwed.

my other grief is membership of the EU. What do I actually get out of it I mean I really do need someone to point it out coz am 50 yr old and don't have a clue. So much so ave started a "Membership of the EU good or bad" topic.

so yeah for me immigration is both good and bad, but the bottom line for me is that the bad is starting to outweigh the good.
		
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Good post mate, pretty much sums up the current situation.

The bit I don't understand though is why we have to bring in doctors, dentists etc when we have a perfectly good infrastructure in place to train our own. I'm sure Asian doctors are required more in their home countries than they are in the UK.


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## Sharktooth (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Good post mate, pretty much sums up the current situation.

The bit I don't understand though is why we have to bring in doctors, dentists etc when we have a perfectly good infrastructure in place to train our own. I'm sure Asian doctors are required more in their home countries than they are in the UK.
		
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I think the pay and conditions are a trifle better for Asian Doctors working in the UK than they are in Asia, unless they are from Hong Kong or Singapore.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Sharktooth said:



			I think the pay and conditions are a trifle better for Asian Doctors working in the UK than they are in Asia, unless they are from Hong Kong or Singapore.
		
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The point is that we can train them ourselves.   If Countries like India spend money on training Doctors, Nurses etc then they should be getting the benefit of their investment.  Not us.

We hear a great deal of European immigration of which we have no real power to control.  The greatest number come from countries like China, Africa, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, these are countries we do have the power to limit but we don't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

Why would we want to limit those people arriving if they contribute to society ?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 26, 2013)

Not going off on tangents but I have some really good friends who live north of Milan Italy and every time we see them we get the same/similar argument. However they insist that Italian immigration is worse than ours due to the influx of European and African immigrants. Me point is am not to sure it's just a British problem.

how do you tackle the problem/issue ? there must be an answer.

read earlier on that we are billions of pounds behind in money paid out to EU and what we have got back. I would not mind if I thought it was being well spent on poorer countries which have joined the EU. But again is it money well spent?


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## stevelev (Dec 26, 2013)

I think we need to look at the likes of Australia for inspiration and guidance. Every person entering even on holiday needs to be able to support themsleves or have sponsors who can do it for them. If they are iffy, dont let them in.  

Also a quicker processing of asylum cases and if rrjected send straight bsck, whilst being processed hold in custody. After all if they are genuine and need protection where better than a secure environment. Also zero benefits for the first 3 years on entry and if they cant support there selves for that length of time stay where you're coming from.

How many other countries are such soft touches as the UK. Maybe instead of giving the decision to parliment they should give it a national vote to UK nationals


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would we want to limit those people arriving if they contribute to society ?
		
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That is a valid question but the point is they have been trained in poor countries that really need them but they come over here for better wages even though we churn out a large number of British doctors/dentists every year through our medical colleges. They have skills that are not in shortage. I know plenty of nurses as well (my ex wife) who can't get jobs because our hospitals are flooded with foreign nurses.

Yes, they are working hard, paying taxes and contributing to society but we don't actually need them. Their own countries, which are poorer than us, do need them. I think it's morally wrong that we allow them to work here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

So should that mean that our docs and nurses shouldn't be allowed to work outside the country ?

If we start denying skilled professionals the opportunity to work in our country then we start closing ourselves of to the world 

If two people go for a job it should gonto who is best for that job as opposed to where they come from.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

No of course not, they should be allowed to work abroad if they so choose. But do you think it's morally right for a poor country to spend a lot of money training doctors only for them to come over here because they can earn more? And going back to the original theme of this thread, they are immigrants taking jobs that British people are trained and qualified to perform.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So should that mean that our docs and nurses shouldn't be allowed to work outside the country ?

If we start denying skilled professionals the opportunity to work in our country then we start closing ourselves of to the world 

If two people go for a job it should gonto who is best for that job as opposed to where they come from.
		
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I would say that if someone is trained as a Doctor or Nurse etc at Public expense  they should work a minimum number of years to repay the debt or repay the training costs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			No of course not, they should be allowed to work abroad if they so choose. But do you think it's morally right for a poor country to spend a lot of money training doctors only for them to come over here because they can earn more? And going back to the original theme of this thread, they are immigrants taking jobs that British people are trained and qualified to perform.
		
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I don't think it's wrong for people to want to further themselves and go to where they can earn the most for themselves. Do we not also do the same ? 

And taking people's jobs ? Surely the jobs are going to best candidate ? 

The jobs are for anyone who is qualified and able to work in this country 

It's not a British job for British people society


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I would say that if someone is trained as a Doctor or Nurse etc at Public expense  they should work a minimum number of years to repay the debt or repay the training costs.
		
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They already do - most junior doctors work in hospitals doing very long hours for little pay


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think it's wrong for people to want to further themselves and go to where they can earn the most for themselves. Do we not also do the same ? 

And taking people's jobs ? Surely the jobs are going to best candidate ? 

The jobs are for anyone who is qualified and able to work in this country 

It's not a British job for British people society
		
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That's fine if you see it that way, I disagree with your views.

Just wonder if you would feel the same if you had trained for 8-10 years then couldn't get a job


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## upsidedown (Dec 26, 2013)

To emigrate to NZ we had to have a skill to offer and one that they needed/wanted. These skills change every year to match the countries needs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			That's fine if you see it that way, I disagree with your views.

Just wonder if you would feel the same if you had trained for 8-10 years then couldn't get a job  

Click to expand...

So do you think the job should go to the British first or the best ? 

Should immigrants not get the job until all the Brits have a job regardless of ability ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So do you think the job should go to the British first or the best ? 

Should immigrants not get the job until all the Brits have a job regardless of ability ?
		
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I say we should protect the interests of our own citizens first, just like NZ, Oz, Canada etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			I say we should protect the interests of our own citizens first, just like NZ, Oz, Canada etc
		
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So you would want a Brit over a better non Brit ?

I would actually prefer to have the best person possible doing the job 

Even in Canada etc they employ the best people regardless of where they come from 

I know if I needed an op I would prefer to have the best doctor operating regardless of where they come from

So question - 1 job - two candidates 1 from UK and 1 Immigrant - who should get the job ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So question - 1 job - two candidates 1 from UK and 1 Immigrant - who should get the job ?
		
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The Brit  :ears:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			The Brit  :ears:
		
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Regardless of ability ? 

That's bordering on racial prejudice


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Regardless of ability ? 

That's bordering on racial prejudice
		
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My example was based on medical professionals, our training is as good as any in the world so there is no reason why he/she should be an inferior candidate.

So you would rather have an immigrant get the job, putting a Brit on the dole?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you would want a Brit over a better non Brit ?

I would actually prefer to have the best person possible doing the job 

Even in Canada etc they employ the best people regardless of where they come from 

I know if I needed an op I would prefer to have the best doctor operating regardless of where they come from

So question - 1 job - two candidates 1 from UK and 1 Immigrant - who should get the job ?
		
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The immigrant should only get the job if we don't have anyone qualified to do it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			My example was based on medical professionals, our training is as good as any in the world so there is no reason why he/she should be an inferior candidate.

So you would rather have an immigrant get the job, putting a Brit on the dole?
		
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I would rather have the best person for the job get the job regardless of their nationality or race.

Just because someone is trained in this country doesn't mean they are the best person for the job


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The immigrant should only get the job if we don't have anyone qualified to do it.
		
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So you would pick a Brit over an immigrant regardless of their ability ?

Life saving op is needed - which Doc do you want - the Brit or the immigrant who is better


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

So what are you saying......foreign doctors don't make cock-ups, only British ones?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			So what are you saying......foreign doctors don't make cock-ups, only British ones?
		
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Did I say that ? 

I said i want the job to go to the best candidate not just be given to the Brit because they are a Brit

If they are the best for the job they will get it


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you would pick a Brit over an immigrant regardless of their ability ?

Life saving op is needed - which Doc do you want - the Brit or the immigrant who is better
		
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I would hope a qualified Surgeon trained in Britain would be capable of  carrying out the operation.  Do you suggest otherwise?

As I suggested. If there was not a British person suitable for the job then of course it would be pertinent to recruit someone from overseas.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I would hope a qualified Surgeon trained in Britain would be capable of  carrying out the operation.  Do you suggest otherwise?
		
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I suggest I would like the best available to operate regardless of where they were born.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Phil, you should stand for Prime Minister. I would love to see what the UK would be like under you in 20 years time  :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I suggest I would like the best available to operate regardless of where they were born.
		
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So lets consider you are in hospital and require a heart bypass.   Would you question the hospital on the suitability of their Surgeons, would you ask them if they had searched abroad to see if their was someone better suited to carry out the procedure?  

Lets look at another scenario.   An Indian restaurant requires a new trainee assistant Chef.   Should they recruit someone from the Indian sub Continent before taking on someone unemployed in the UK?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			So lets consider you are in hospital and require a heart bypass.   Would you question the hospital on the suitability of their Surgeons, would you ask them if they had searched abroad to see if their was someone better suited to carry out the procedure?  

Lets look at another scenario.   An Indian restaurant requires a new trainee assistant Chef.   Should they recruit someone from the Indian sub Continent before taking on someone unemployed in the UK?
		
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Well yes I would pick the best hospital for any operatin if given the choice and also the best surgeons for the job regardless of where they come from 

The top surgeon at Harefield ( top heart hospital ) is an Indian and he is reputed to be the best in Europe if not the world - saved thousands of lives and many have learned from him. Would you like him replaced with a Brit ? 

And the Indian restaurant should employ who they think is best for the job regardless of where they come from


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Phil, you should stand for Prime Minister. I would love to see what the UK would be like under you in 20 years time  :thup:
		
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Prob in a better state than if we took others peoples ideals


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 26, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the Indian restaurant should employ who they think is best for the job regardless of where they come from
		
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If you follow your argument to it's logical conclusion.......

There are 50 something million Brits in this country and 6 billion people on Earth. For any given job in this country there will be someone else in the world who is better qualified. Bring 'em in!! Brits can live on the dole.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Prob in a better state than if we took others peoples ideals
		
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That's your opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 26, 2013)

drive4show said:



			If you follow your argument to it's logical conclusion.......

There are 50 something million Brits in this country and 6 billion people on Earth. For any given job in this country there will be someone else in the world who is better qualified. Bring 'em in!! Brits can live on the dole.
		
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Is that not how a lot of big companies work anyway - people get Headhunted or people apply and then it's down to ability and not where they come from. 



			That's your opinion.
		
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You're right, it is :thup:


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## Adi2Dassler (Dec 27, 2013)

Scotland is kinda shielded from the large numbers of immigrants that England has seen over recent years, but seeing as I can only go on personal experience, I think immigration from European countries and others has been excellent for Scotland.We suffer from a net deficit between emmigration and immigration so its been good for us.I do agree there should be a period of time that benefits cannot be claimed but I also think people sometimes need help when they first arrive.Speaking English should be the only pre-requisite I'd have...integration is essential.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 27, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Speaking English should be the only pre-requisite I'd have...integration is essential.
		
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One of my Grandsons attended a school [near Heathrow] where for 90%+ English was not the first language... One of the reasons his Mum has now moved away from 'the smoke' to try and get him a better chance of decent schooling...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Since 2000 net migration has reached 2.6 Million.  Thats' like 2.5 times the population of Birmingham.  As well as this the birth rate is climbing at a fairly rapid rate 813,000 new births in 2012.

As these numbers will rise over the years how will this kind of population be supported.   To create housing, health services, schools and infrastructure for this number of people we will either have to have a continual large growth in the economy or accept a reduced standard of living.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Since 2000 net migration has reached 2.6 Million.  Thats' like 2.5 times the population of Birmingham.  As well as this the birth rate is climbing at a fairly rapid rate 813,000 *new births* in 2012.

As these numbers will rise over the years how will this kind of population be supported.   To create housing, health services, schools and infrastructure for this number of people we will either have to have a continual large growth in the economy or accept a reduced standard of living.
		
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So what is an old birth


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Since 2000 net migration has reached 2.6 Million.  Thats' like 2.5 times the population of Birmingham.  As well as this the birth rate is climbing at a fairly rapid rate 813,000 new births in 2012.

As these numbers will rise over the years how will this kind of population be supported.   To create housing, health services, schools and infrastructure for this number of people we will either have to have a continual large growth in the economy or accept a reduced standard of living.
		
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Schools and housing is on the increase and has been for a while

The population is growing with or without immigration 

Our country has always been proud of being able to welcome people into the country and I hope we continue to do so 

Our country is wonderfully multi cultural


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our country is wonderfully multi cultural
		
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Please could you expand on this. Personally, I feel we are a country of a number of cultures, all quite separate, and a far from multicultural.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

This article sums it up well

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/multiculture.html


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## Captainron (Dec 27, 2013)

I immigrated in 2000 when i was brought over to play cricket. Plan was always to stay on. Both my folks were born over here and it was easy enough for me to get a british passport. My folks considered themselves South African and were never ever going to return to these shores to live. I really dont think that i should have been allowed to have British Citizenship because they have not lived here for over 50 years! I am thankful for the laxity and have made my life here but i will alwats consider myself South African. On the plus side, i feel thatbi have contributed to Britain and i speak the language which should also be a requirement.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our country is wonderfully multi cultural
		
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I don't consider my local council not putting up Christmas lights because it offends Muslims to be 'wonderfully multi cultural'


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 27, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			Please could you expand on this. Personally, I feel we are a country of a number of cultures, all quite separate, and a far from multicultural.
		
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That echoes my experience; whilst there are many races in and around London, they tend to form self-supporting enclaves rather than integrating.  There are exceptions to that, obviously, but I have found them to be the exception rather than the norm.


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## stevie_r (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			I don't consider my local council not putting up Christmas lights because it offends Muslims to be 'wonderfully multi cultural'
		
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Confuses me why it would offend them really, given that we are 'celebrating the birth' of a man who is a minor prophet in their religion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			I don't consider my local council not putting up Christmas lights because it offends Muslims to be 'wonderfully multi cultural'
		
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Which council is that ? In Christchurch ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which council is that ? In Christchurch ?
		
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It's many councils right up and down the country!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

Not yours then and certainly not mine and can't remember many others in the news banning Xmas lights 

I do remember this though 

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/christmas-banned-offends-muslims-false-story.shtml

Oh and here is the Muslim community confirming that Xmas doesn't offend them 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/12/17/ban-christmas-muslims_n_4460151.html

So is it really councils up and down the country


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes...there ARE councils that ban Xmas lights.

We clearly have different views on this issue so I'm not going to debate it any further as we are just going round in circles.

You are clearly happy to live in a 'wonderfully multicultural society' where English will be a second language in the future but that isn't really my ideal for living in the UK.

Enjoy!  :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Yes...there ARE councils that ban Xmas lights.

We clearly have different views on this issue so I'm not going to debate it any further as we are just going round in circles.

You are clearly happy to live in a 'wonderfully multicultural society' where English will be a second language in the future but that isn't really my ideal for living in the UK.

Enjoy!  :thup:
		
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Which councils then ? You can't make statements like that and not back them up.

Did you read either article where the "council ban" was proven to be a nonsense 

The country has over 50 million English people speaking English - 2.9 million not born in the country 

So how is English going to become our 2nd language

Facts don't back up what your suggesting

Do people also include the Irish who are the biggest immigrant into Britain ?


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So how is English going to become our 2nd language

Facts don't back up what your suggesting
		
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Try visiting Birmingham City hospital. You'll find English on the signs in the hospital.... down in 3rd or 4th place. Try asking some of the staff for directions...

Your version of reality does seem a little at odds with many on here...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

Went there about 4 years ago with an eye problem - had an English speaking doc and nurse 

And does one hospital represent the majority of the country ?

50 mil English speaking people ( first language ) in the country.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Went there about 4 years ago with an eye problem - had an English speaking doc and nurse 

And does one hospital represent the majority of the country ?

50 mil English speaking people ( first language ) in the country.
		
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Don't kid yourself Phil, if you want a precedent then just look at Miami. The primary language is Spanish, English is now the 2nd language in that city. Or how about Leicester where whites are now in the minority (and no, that is not a racist comment, it's merely a fact).

Britain is rapidly changing.....that is also a fact.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Don't kid yourself Phil, if you want a precedent then just look at Miami. The primary language is Spanish, English is now the 2nd language in that city. Or how about Leicester where whites are now in the minority (and no, that is not a racist comment, it's merely a fact).

Britain is rapidly changing.....that is also a fact.
		
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Just because they are not white doesn't mean English isnt their first language 

I'm so surprised we don't speak Danish or French or Spanish as a first language with all those immigrant over the thousands of years 

Miami is not the UK

Edit: which language will be the first language in the UK then 

The top 5 immigrants are - Polish , Irish , African , Chinese and South Asians ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just because they are not white doesn't mean English isnt their first language 

I'm so surprised we don't speak Danish or French or Spanish as a first language with all those immigrant over the thousands of years 

Miami is not the UK
		
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Brilliant reply, completely missed the point.


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## USER1999 (Dec 27, 2013)

Captainron said:



			and i speak the language.
		
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With a terrible accent though!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Brilliant reply, completely missed the point.
		
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You used Miami to back up a point that we will not have English as our first language 

I counter that by asking why when people have been flooding into country over thousands of years do we still speak English as a first language - by a massive majority. 

You mentioned skin colour in Leicester and asked what that has to do with language because a persons skin colour doesn't automatically suggest a certain type of language 

Again there is no facts to back up further points 

And not for the first time. 

Still waiting for the council list


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

Nice picture with lots of facts and figures


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## stevie_r (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just because they are not white doesn't mean English isnt their first language 

I'm so surprised we don't speak Danish or French or Spanish as a first language with all those immigrant over the thousands of years 

Miami is not the UK

Edit: which language will be the first language in the UK then 

The top 5 immigrants are - Polish , Irish , African , Chinese and South Asians ?
		
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And if I may add, just because they aren't white doesn't mean they aren't British, they could be 3rd generation!


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## gmc40 (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			I don't consider my local council not putting up Christmas lights because it offends Muslims to be 'wonderfully multi cultural'
		
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http://christchurch-dorset.com/christchurch-christmas-festival-lights-switch-on/

Did this get cancelled? Or have you moved elsewhere where it did get cancelled and not updated your location? Or did you just make it up?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You used Miami to back up a point that we will not have English as our first language 

I counter that by asking why when people have been flooding into country over thousands of years do we still speak English as a first language - by a massive majority. 

You mentioned skin colour in Leicester and asked what that has to do with language because a persons skin colour doesn't automatically suggest a certain type of language 

Again there is no facts to back up further points 

And not for the first time. 

Still waiting for the council list 

Click to expand...

OK, I'll spell it out for you in simple terms so you can understand it.

Your first point.....the rate of immigration has increased dramatically since we joined the EU and opened our borders. That is why English is the primary language in this country but for how much longer? Miami is a major city in the USA (yep, not in the UK) which used to be populated with white americans, now it has a majority population of hispanics and the primary language is Spanish. I was using this as an example of what will happen to the UK if we continue with our current immigration policy.

Your second question re Leicester. Prior to the 1960's, there were virtually no blacks/asians or any other non whites in this country. Now an entire city has a non white majority. As I said, I'm not racist I'm just using this example to emphasise the point about immigration.  

Please feel free to respond to my comments if you wish but to be perfectly honest, I'm bored with this thread now and I won't be responding.


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## stevie_r (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			OK, I'll spell it out for you in simple terms so you can understand it.

Your first point.....the rate of immigration has increased dramatically since we joined the EU and opened our borders. That is why English is the primary language in this country but for how much longer? Miami is a major city in the USA (yep, not in the UK) which used to be populated with white americans, now it has a majority population of hispanics and the primary language is Spanish. I was using this as an example of what will happen to the UK if we continue with our current immigration policy.

Your second question re Leicester. *Prior to the 1960's, there were virtually no blacks/asians or any other non whites in this country*. Now an entire city has a non white majority. As I said, I'm not racist I'm just using this example to emphasise the point about immigration.  

Please feel free to respond to my comments if you wish but to be perfectly honest, I'm bored with this thread now and I won't be responding.
		
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See that highlighted bit, the bit in bold - utter utter rubbish


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			See that highlighted bit, the bit in bold - utter utter rubbish
		
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Apologies.... 1 decade out

http://www.historytoday.com/zig-henry/new-commonwealth-migrants-1945-62


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

drive4show said:



			OK, I'll spell it out for you in simple terms so you can understand it.

Your first point.....the rate of immigration has increased dramatically since we joined the EU and opened our borders. That is why English is the primary language in this country but for how much longer? Miami is a major city in the USA (yep, not in the UK) which used to be populated with white americans, now it has a majority population of hispanics and the primary language is Spanish. I was using this as an example of what will happen to the UK if we continue with our current immigration policy.

Your second question re Leicester. Prior to the 1960's, there were virtually no blacks/asians or any other non whites in this country. Now an entire city has a non white majority. As I said, I'm not racist I'm just using this example to emphasise the point about immigration.  

Please feel free to respond to my comments if you wish but to be perfectly honest, I'm bored with this thread now and I won't be responding.
		
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You cannot state what "will or will not happen" - you can say what you think " might" happen based on some loose connection to the Miami but it's massively loose. Unless you can see into the future with some magical powers. 

The colour of someone's skin doesn't determine what language they speak - Yes there maybe more blacks than whites in Leicester but they are still speaking English there.

You have made quite a few statements today and they have been false 

There is a clear difference between fact and opinion - very clear difference.


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## stevie_r (Dec 27, 2013)

Personally I would love to hear the white English speaking population of Miami, or indeed any other American city, whine that foreigners were taking over their country.  The irony would probably make me pish my boxers :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Schools and housing is on the increase and has been for a while

The population is growing with or without immigration 

Our country has always been proud of being able to welcome people into the country and I hope we continue to do so 

Our country is wonderfully multi cultural
		
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"Schools and housing on the increase"! :   Schools are at bursting point, please prove otherwise.    
Housing provision is nowhere near keeping up with population.  Please prove otherwise. 

"The population is growing with or without immigration"  :  Umm!   I think I explained that!  The biggest increase in new births are to mothers born outside Britain.    The country already has a birth rate too large for services, immigration only compounds that.

"Our country is wonderfully multi cultural" :   It's not wonderful at all, it means we are separated by culture and many of the minority groups are the ones most likely to want to remain separate from the majority.   There are very few inter-marriages between Asians and white British and its the Asian communities that want it to remain that way.

Tell me what you find so bad about traditional British Culture, why did it need watering down and be made into something we should be afraid to enjoy and  maintain.   IMO we don't need multiculturalism, we need integration.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Personally I would love to hear the white English speaking population of Miami, or indeed any other American city, whine that foreigners were taking over their country.  The irony would probably make me pish my boxers :rofl:
		
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Have you ever lived in the USA? I doubt it somehow!  Try living in the Southern States and repeat that in a bar!   You fail to understand that the country has moved on a bit over the last 500 years and most people don't see themselves as newcomers, they also have very strong views over the influx of hispanic people.

You would need to cross your legs and take a spare pair of shreddies.


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## stevie_r (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you ever lived in the USA? I doubt it somehow!  Try living in the Southern States and repeat that in a bar!   You fail to understand that the country has moved on a bit over the last 500 years and most people don't see themselves as newcomers, they also have very strong views over the influx of hispanic people.

You would need to cross your legs and take a spare pair of shreddies.  

Click to expand...

Where to even begin with that, good grief.  I appreciate that countries move on, as well as appreciating that you believe you have an IQ equivalent to the rest of the forum put together - well apart from an understanding of irony that is.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Where to even begin with that, good grief.  I appreciate that countries move on, as well as appreciating that you believe you have an IQ equivalent to the rest of the forum put together - well apart from an understanding of irony that is.
		
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Poor reply.   Must try harder Stevie.

Irony?   Never been good at that, I leave it to jack the lads


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			"Schools and housing on the increase"! :   Schools are at bursting point, please prove otherwise.    
Housing provision is nowhere near keeping up with population.  Please prove otherwise. 

"The population is growing with or without immigration"  :  Umm!   I think I explained that!  The biggest increase in new births are to mothers born outside Britain.    The country already has a birth rate too large for services, immigration only compounds that.

"Our country is wonderfully multi cultural" :   It's not wonderful at all, it means we are separated by culture and many of the minority groups are the ones most likely to want to remain separate from the majority.   There are very few inter-marriages between Asians and white British and its the Asian communities that want it to remain that way.

Tell me what you find so bad about traditional British Culture, why did it need watering down and be made into something we should be afraid to enjoy and  maintain.   IMO we don't need multiculturalism, we need integration.
		
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When did I say anything was bad about British Culture and when did I say it needed watering down ? 

And made into something we are afraid to enjoy ?! 

Again you are saying that I'm saying stuff that I'm clearly not ! 

And yes I think this country is wonderful and yes I do like both the British Culture and I also like the foreign culture we have in this country.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I say anything was bad about British Culture and when did I say it needed watering down ? 

And made into something we are afraid to enjoy ?! 

Again you are saying that I'm saying stuff that I'm clearly not ! 

And yes I think this country is wonderful and yes I do like both the British Culture and I also like the foreign culture we have in this country.
		
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Come on then.  Reply to the rest of the post!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then.  Reply to the rest of the post!
		
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What's the point when you will just spin what ever I say and make up stuff - again when did I say anything about disliking British culture.

Why do you keep doing it ?


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## JustOne (Dec 27, 2013)

Immigration??? Pah!! We can't even mix Scots and English yet!!!!!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's the point when you will just spin what ever I say and make up stuff - again when did I say anything about disliking British culture.

Why do you keep doing it ?
		
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Funny that.  I was just about to post the same.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Immigration??? Pah!! We can't even mix Scots and English yet!!!!!!!!!
		
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Hey JO, don't leave the Welsh and Irish out of a good story line


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			Try visiting Birmingham City hospital. You'll find English on the signs in the hospital.... down in 3rd or 4th place. Try asking some of the staff for directions...

Your version of reality does seem a little at odds with many on here...
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Went there about 4 years ago with an eye problem - had an English speaking doc and nurse 

And does one hospital represent the majority of the country ?

50 mil English speaking people ( first language ) in the country.
		
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So you're quite happy to have English as the 3rd langauge? You should try turning up there on an emergency call out to theatres...

And how about the elected Mayor of Leicester - 2003? Ramnik Kavia, born in India and elected by a majority of the local population, i.e. asian...

9% of the UK is immigrant but over 50% of that 9% live in London. Over 5,000,000 million people in London are immigrants... wonder how confident Boris is of keeping his job?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Funny that.  I was just about to post the same.
		
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But I'm not - far from it pal. 

It's quite clear you have a strong opinion about non British - you are entitled to that but it's making you twist everything anyone says to fall in line to predetermined arguments you already have in your head. 

I suggested to you yesterday that could you please actually not twist and spin what people are saying - it's extremly disrespectful.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			So you're quite happy to have English as the 3rd langauge? You should try turning up there on an emergency call out to theatres...

And how about the elected Mayor of Leicester - 2003? Ramnik Kavia, born in India and elected by a majority of the local population, i.e. asian...

9% of the UK is immigrant but over 50% of that 9% live in London. Over 5,000,000 million people in London are immigrants... wonder how confident Boris is of keeping his job?
		
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But English isn't the third language and witnessed no problems when I was there 

What about the Mayor of Leicester ? Is he not allowed to be elected ?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I'm not - far from it pal. 

It's quite clear you have a strong opinion about non British - you are entitled to that but it's making you twist everything anyone says to fall in line to predetermined arguments you already have in your head. 

I suggested to you yesterday that could you please actually not twist and spin what people are saying - it's extremly disrespectful.
		
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I was about to post the same.

About time someone closed this thread as its going nowhere now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I was about to [post the same.
		
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But you would be wrong unless you can point out something I have said that you have posted when you didn't ?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But you would be wrong unless you can point out something I have said that you have posted when you didn't ?
		
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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			Try visiting Birmingham City hospital. You'll find English on the signs in the hospital.... down in 3rd or 4th place. Try asking some of the staff for directions...

Your version of reality does seem a little at odds with many on here...
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Went there about 4 years ago with an eye problem - had an English speaking doc and nurse 

And does one hospital represent the majority of the country ?

50 mil English speaking people ( first language ) in the country.
		
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Hobbit said:



			So you're quite happy to have English as the 3rd langauge? You should try turning up there on an emergency call out to theatres...

And how about the elected Mayor of Leicester - 2003? Ramnik Kavia, born in India and elected by a majority of the local population, i.e. asian...

9% of the UK is immigrant but over 50% of that 9% live in London. Over 5,000,000 million people in London are immigrants... wonder how confident Boris is of keeping his job?
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			But English isn't the third language and witnessed no problems when I was there 

What about the Mayor of Leicester ? Is he not allowed to be elected ?
		
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Sementics and splitting hairs...

English is the 3rd langauge on the signs in Brimingham City hospital - FACT!

An English city elected a foreign mayor by virtue of the fact that the majority of the population in that city is of the SAME decent, and the indigenous population of that city are in the minority...

Split it any way you like Phil but you are blinkered and blind to where areas of the UK are now, and where it is headed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

One hospital has English on a sign

Didn't realise the order on which language on a sign means it's the priority of language

1 hospital out of hundreds - one hospital - the smallest of minorities. 

That mayor of Leicester is a British Citizen is he not ? Part of the Commonwealth also. Again I can't see the problem. Are the Asians in Leicester not English then ? What about the thousands born in the country ? Born and bred in Leicester - are they not part of the indigenous population ?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One hospital has English on a sign

Didn't realise the order on which language on a sign means it's the priority of language

1 hospital out of hundreds - one hospital - the smallest of minorities. 

That mayor of Leicester is a British Citizen is he not ? Part of the Commonwealth also. Again I can't see the problem. Are the Asians in Leicester not English then ? What about the thousands born in the country ? Born and bred in Leicester - are they not part of the indigenous population ?
		
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Could you please actually not twist and spin what people are saying - it's extremly disrespectful.

A number of people have noticed this!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Could you please actually not twist and spin what people are saying - it's extremly disrespectful.

A number of people have noticed this!
		
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Where have I twisted anything - where have I suggested the poster has said something he didn't 

I'm guessing you are still searching. You carry on.

Im guessing you are struggling hence why you are starting to be facetious


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## Captainron (Dec 27, 2013)

This issue is clearly a major talking point and I am sure it will play a MASSIVE role in the election campaigns in the next election. If UKIP had a credible leader they would definitely gain votes around this. Plenty of folk here in Lincolnshire are leaning their way.


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One hospital has English on a sign

Didn't realise the order on which language on a sign means it's the priority of language

1 hospital out of hundreds - one hospital - the smallest of minorities. 

That mayor of Leicester is a British Citizen is he not ? Part of the Commonwealth also. Again I can't see the problem. Are the Asians in Leicester not English then ? What about the thousands born in the country ? Born and bred in Leicester - are they not part of the indigenous population ?
		
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So you are quite happy to give up Birmigham as part of Britain? For the response to an emergency in the theatres to be hindered by a lack of English, both in the sign posting and by the staff?

The Commonwealth isn't Britain. It is a Commonwealth of separate nation. Nations that have made a point of separating themselves from being part of the Empire but are more than happy to come here as economic migrants and take the best of the UK. The 2nd/3rd generation Britains in Leicester, of asian decent........ i'm sorry Phil but "there's none so blind as those that cannot see," and you are the architypal of someone who, irrespective of what empirical evidence is put before them, is totally blind.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 27, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where have I twisted anything - where have I suggested the poster has said something he didn't 

I'm guessing you are still searching. You carry on.

Im guessing you are struggling hence why you are starting to be facetious
		
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You may have missed that I was quoting your own previous words


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			So you are quite happy to give up Birmigham as part of Britain? For the response to an emergency in the theatres to be hindered by a lack of English, both in the sign posting and by the staff?

The Commonwealth isn't Britain. It is a Commonwealth of separate nation. Nations that have made a point of separating themselves from being part of the Empire but are more than happy to come here as economic migrants and take the best of the UK. The 2nd/3rd generation Britains in Leicester, of asian decent........ i'm sorry Phil but "there's none so blind as those that cannot see," and you are the architypal of someone who, irrespective of what empirical evidence is put before them, is totally blind.
		
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Given up Birmingham as part of Britain ? 

Where has it gone ? Britain as far as I'm aware is the ground on which you walk and Birmingham will always be part of Britain regardless of who lives there. 

Have emergencies been hindered at the hospital ? 

I never said the commonwealth was Britain ?

So are people born in this country British regardless of their parentage ? Is the Mayor of Leicester not British - has he not been voted in by British whether that be 2nd or 3rd generation British


They decent from Asian background - where as you possibly decent from foreign background also ?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			So you are quite happy to give up Birmigham as part of Britain? For the response to an emergency in the theatres to be hindered by a lack of English, both in the sign posting and by the staff?

The Commonwealth isn't Britain. It is a Commonwealth of separate nation. Nations that have made a point of separating themselves from being part of the Empire but are more than happy to come here as economic migrants and take the best of the UK. The 2nd/3rd generation Britains in Leicester, of asian decent........ i'm sorry Phil but "there's none so blind as those that cannot see," and you are the architypal of someone who, irrespective of what empirical evidence is put before them, is totally blind.
		
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I had an experience of calling a London Hospital recently to enquire on someone I knew had been admitted.   The person that answered seemed to be of African origin and spoke very poor English, it took me some time for them to comprehend my straight forward request.   I was then put through to a Ward Nurse who seemed to be of Chinese origin and also had a poor command of English.   A very poor experience and reflection of the NHS.

Was this an example of our lovely Multiculturalism ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I had an experience of calling a London Hospital recently to enquire on someone I knew had been admitted.   The person that answered seemed to be of African origin and spoke very poor English, it took me some time for them to comprehend my straight forward request.   I was then put through to a Ward Nurse who seemed to be of Chinese origin and also had a poor command of English.   A very poor experience and reflection of the NHS.

Was this an example of our lovely Multiculturalism ?
		
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Imagine you having the perfect example - I'm amazed you haven't mentioned it before


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the thousands born in the country ? Born and bred in Leicester - are they not part of the indigenous population ?
		
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Rather than us split hairs on what is and what isn't indigenous......... Surely you'll bow to something like the Oxford English dictionary, and maybe even Wikipedia...

The Oxford is pretty clear on what is indigenous, i.e, of natural decent. Wikipedia takes it even further by saying that the indigenous population may suffer by colonisation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			Rather than us split hairs on what is and what isn't indigenous......... Surely you'll bow to something like the Oxford English dictionary, and maybe even Wikipedia...

The Oxford is pretty clear on what is indigenous, i.e, of natural decent. Wikipedia takes it even further by saying that the indigenous population may suffer by colonisation.
		
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So who in this country is natural ? My roots are Irish ? Are yours Norman or Danish

How far back do you go ?

If someone's parents came here in the 1940's are they still not British ?!

Do you have to go back further.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine you having the perfect example - I'm amazed you haven't mentioned it before 

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting I am lying.   I assure you its true, if you think I am making it up then contact me by PM and I will supply you  with the full details.


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So who in this country is natural ? My roots are Irish ? Are yours Norman or Danish

How far back do you go ?

If someone's parents came here in the 1940's are they still not British ?!

Do you have to go back further.
		
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I'm at a loss here Phil... are you just trolling for an argument or genuinely obtuse? Maybe this is better settled over a pint... or 23. I'm guessing we could get 36 holes out of this discussion.

First of all, the response to an emergancy at Birmingham City; yes the response was hindered by the signposting and the poor response from the staff, and not for the first time and not in the first hospital I've worked in... And dare I add, following a rugby injury I had the nursing staff translate my broad northern English to a Doc in a hospital in Lincolnshire. Maybe me being broad northern, I'm at fault.

As to the diverse nations that have either invaded or emigrated to these shores. Different nations, from different areas of the world, assimilate very differently into the UK. If you think someone of Irish decent integrates the same as someone from asia you are definitely being naive, and the enclaves that we see in many major towns and cities support that.

As for my origin... deepest, darkest Lincolnshire + 2nd gen Irish = totally screwed. But perhaps more importantly in the context of this argument, totally assimilated into celebrating "England, Harry & St George."

But we, prehaps, digress from the original argument, or maybe my original rsponse.... we're full.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

So is it just the Asians that are the problem ? 

The Irish it appears are ok - so they can immigrate to us

What about the polish ? Or Eastern European or Chinese because immigration isn't just about Asians 

And why did you have problems with the signage ? You said they had English on them ?

And understanding accents isn't just restricted to immigrants. 

And assimilate ? You won't find many Irish assimilating towards England , St George etc - they are Irish and will always be Irish and they do have their own little areas and own little
Villages where ever you go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting I am lying.   I assure you its true, if you think I am making it up then contact me by PM and I will supply you  with the full details.
		
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I can be suggesting whatever you want to believe :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 28, 2013)

OMG Phil, I've just realised......you're trolling to get to 2000 posts!

:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2013)

drive4show said:



			OMG Phil, I've just realised......you're trolling to get to 2000 posts!

:rofl:
		
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Have you found those councils for us yet ?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 28, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			See that highlighted bit, the bit in bold - utter utter rubbish
		
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Is it? Really? Do you remember those times from personal experience?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2013)

dear ladies and gentlemen, this was my first topic as a new member on this site and my reasons for asking the question re immigration good or bad is because I believe it will be the major talking point re the next election. I honestly believe that immigration can and does enhance this country and if forecasts are to be believed we will be major industrial power in Europe by 2030 (we will see). In that calculation immigration will play a major part.

however we have Eastern Europeans selling big issue in mansfield! what's that all about! even people who are living on the streets have there sources of income taken away by immigrants. 

My wife was threatened with discrimination by an English guy (who she set on as a care assistant in her hospital) because she would not employ his Thai wife. My wife explained that as soon as she learned English as she could not speak two words of English, she would give her another interview. My wife was livid. She has too many friends of different nationalities (as you would working in an hospital) to mention, and yet she was threatened with discrimination. After an evening of ranting and raving my wife said would you want someone to look after your mum or dad if they cannot understand the basics of English and hospital terminology.

this brings me to another point! you have someone who is prepared to work but cannot speak English! and someone who speaks English but is not prepared to work. Who do you give the job to. It's a no brainier. Why do people not want to work, because benefits more than get them by.


I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this topic and would be most grateful if the Mods could lock this post as it seems to of run its course..

Happy new year to everyone, mr and Missis tash will be spending there's in Amsterdam.


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## stevie_r (Dec 28, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Is it? Really? Do you remember those times from personal experience?
		
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Daft post.  I wasn't around for the battle of Trafalgar but I know it happened.


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So is it just the Asians that are the problem ? 

The Irish it appears are ok - so they can immigrate to us

What about the polish ? Or Eastern European or Chinese because immigration isn't just about Asians 

And why did you have problems with the signage ? You said they had English on them ?

And understanding accents isn't just restricted to immigrants. 

And assimilate ? You won't find many Irish assimilating towards England , St George etc - they are Irish and will always be Irish and they do have their own little areas and own little
Villages where ever you go.
		
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I've given you examples, hard facts, and all you've come back with is an opinion. I've suggested you take on board what is in the Oxford English and Wiki, and you've chosen to fly in the face of those tomes. Are you ever wrong?

As for the Irish not assimilating; well, that's your opinion. There's an area of Middlesbrough, once known locally as little Ireland. My mother's family, a typically large Irish family immgrated to it in the 30's. There's Byrne's, Burns, Burn, O'Dwyers, Walls (and that's just family) and God alone knows how many other Irish names around there. I grew up there, went to school there, worked there... there's the odd few that talk of the old country - known locally, jokingly, as plastic Paddy's. It is as English an area as you can get - not even a Paddy's social club in sight. I guess that dispels another of your myths, i.e. that not many of the Irish would assimilate... 

"Just the Asians..." Polish road signs in the Vale of Evesham... Those in Evesham were removed after complaints by locals that they were distracting and confusing... more hard evidence for you to ignore or dismiss.

Anyway, back to my original response. Our infrastructure can't cope. Class sizes are pushing 40 in some secondary schools, and a number of councils have asked for the legal limit of 30 in primary schools be changed... we're full.


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## Beezerk (Dec 28, 2013)

Tashyboy said:



			Happy new year to everyone, mr and Missis tash will be spending there's in Amsterdam.
		
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Enjoy mate, I was there for my 40th/ New Year in 2011, we had a superb time. Make sure you're in Dam Square at 12, take some fireworks and be prepared for the madness :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Dec 28, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Daft post.  I wasn't around for the battle of Trafalgar but I know it happened.
		
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Its as simple as that is it? You weren't there so you googled it for the correct answer...


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## stevie_r (Dec 28, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Its as simple as that is it? You weren't there so you googled it for the correct answer...
		
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Never went near google as there was no need, a basic grasp of British history is sufficient.  Significant (all things being relative) immigration from the Caribbean started in the 50's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 28, 2013)

Don't know whether it's immigration related, but from what I saw on TV news the big stores in London find overseas customers a good thing judging by the fact that almost everyone at the front of the queues piling into Harrods and Selfridges etc seemed to be of a Far Eastern background. So bring em in and on the stores might say.


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## Slime (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One hospital has English on a sign

Didn't realise the order on which language on a sign means it's the priority of language

1 hospital out of hundreds - one hospital - the smallest of minorities. 

That mayor of Leicester is a British Citizen is he not ? Part of the Commonwealth also. Again I can't see the problem. *Are the Asians in Leicester not English then ?* What about the thousands born in the country ? Born and bred in Leicester - are they not part of the indigenous population ?
		
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If they are Asians they surely can't be English. Wouldn't that make them Europeans ........................ as that's the continent that England is in .

*INCOMING!!!!*

*
Slime*.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			So you're quite happy to have English as the 3rd langauge? You should try turning up there on an emergency call out to theatres...

And how about the elected Mayor of Leicester - 2003? Ramnik Kavia, born in India and elected by a majority of the local population, i.e. asian...

9% of the UK is immigrant but over 50% of that 9% live in London. Over 5,000,000 million people in London are immigrants... wonder how confident Boris is of keeping his job?
		
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Where do you get your information from Leicester's first and only elected Mayor is Peter Soulsby a white Anglo Saxon.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 28, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Never went near google as there was no need, a basic grasp of British history is sufficient.  Significant (all things being relative) immigration from the Caribbean started in the 50's.
		
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I can remember London in the '50s/60s and whilst seeing a non-white was not unheard of it was 'quite' uncommon [as you note all things being relative] until the mid 60's...
Visiting some nearby parts, these days, it could be said that seeing a 'white face' as being uncommon...

History changes.... Talking to someone recently about my memories of the Southall riots during the conversation he told me that they are now known there as the Southall 'happenings'....


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## stevie_r (Dec 28, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			I can remember London in the '50s/60s and whilst seeing a non-white was not unheard of it was 'quite' uncommon [as you note all things being relative] until the mid 60's...
Visiting some nearby parts, these days, it could be said that seeing a 'white face' as being uncommon...

History changes.... Talking to someone recently about my memories of the Southall riots during the conversation he told me that they are now known there as the Southall 'happenings'....
		
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Then I doubt you frequented the areas where the influx of immigrants at the time were settled.

Your second point - what on earth is it?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can be suggesting whatever you want to believe :thup:
		
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I think I need a translator for that one!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know whether it's immigration related, but from what I saw on TV news the big stores in London find overseas customers a good thing judging by the fact that almost everyone at the front of the queues piling into Harrods and Selfridges etc seemed to be of a Far Eastern background. So bring em in and on the stores might say.
		
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You will find most of those were Chinese who come over for the sales.   If you visit any of the large retail outlet villages like 'Bicester' you will find it full of Chinese shoppers.


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## stevie_r (Dec 28, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			You will find most of those were Chinese who come over for the sales.   If you visit any of the large retail outlet villages like 'Bicester' you will find it full of Chinese shoppers.
		
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Pis there anything you don't know? It's incredible :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Pis there anything you don't know? It's incredible :thup:
		
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I have you weighed up if that helps :thup:


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## stevie_r (Dec 28, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I have you weighed up if that helps :thup:
		
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Well I've put on a couple of pound over Xmas  but I'll soon get that off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			History changes.... Talking to someone recently about my memories of the Southall riots during the conversation he told me that they are now known there as the Southall 'happenings'....
		
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I suppose that is better than 'troubles'.
I always find that word very strange in the circumstances.

What next 'The German hissy fit'


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## JAS964 (Dec 29, 2013)

in answer to the original question - Is immigration good or bad?

It depends!!

It depends on the numbers involved
It depends on who benefits
It depends on the amount of actual multicultural integration that happens.

Very relevant question in relation to the next election because each of the parties should be able to tell you about how their immigration policy is going to answer to the above.

My personal view is that immigration is CURRENTLY bad. Why?? Because 1) There seems to be no grip whatsoever on the numbers (not the bottom line number but the number that would be of optimum economic benefit for the WHOLE country) 2) Immigration is currently driven by criminal gangs or multinational companies (the first illegal the 2nd not much better) whose purpose is to body shop immigrants in to make big profits from them (do any of them pay Corporation tax on the profits they make from such body shopping?? if no then where is the benefit to the country??). 3) Putting aside the economic issues, there isn't the level of genuine multicultural integration that there should be and both the immigrant communities AND the native population are guilty in that respect.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Pis there anything you think you don't know? It's incredible :thup:
		
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Changed for you :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Dec 29, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Then I doubt you frequented the areas where the influx of immigrants at the time were settled.
		
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With family in Southall and Acton this side of town and Plaistow and West Ham the other side....

I used to go either to or through Southall almost daily well into the late '70's...

I prefer to remember as I saw it rather than 'history' based on the utterings of the right wing press....





			Your second point - what on earth is it?
		
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History gets altered/adjusted to suit... In a couple of decades time when you read the histories of the wars you were at do you think you'll recognise them as you saw/recollect them?


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## stevie_r (Dec 29, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			With family in Southall and Acton this side of town and Plaistow and West Ham the other side....

I used to go either to or through Southall almost daily well into the late '70's...

I prefer to remember as I saw it rather than 'history' based on the utterings of the right wing press....




History gets altered/adjusted to suit... In a couple of decades time when you read the histories of the wars you were at do you think you'll recognise them as you saw/recollect them?
		
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Now funnily enough it is just possible that the mind of a youngster is the thing that isn't quite accurate.  For example, by my recollection it never rained once during my school summer holidays, although of course it probably did.

Immigration from the Caribbean started in the 50's on a fairly decent scale and was of course encouraged.  As a percentage of the UK population at the time they would have been a tiny .  But to suggest that it never happened is like denying the holocaust.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Changed for you :thup:
		
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Its very sad that people like you on this site just have to get petty and spiteful when someone argues a different point of view to yours.

As a positive, it probably makes you feel better.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 29, 2013)

Socket & Liverpoolphil enough please
This is how threads get closed down

Season of goodwill to all men etc


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## chris661 (Dec 29, 2013)

Enough warnings have been dished out.


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