# The Christmas Paradox



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Pity less than half of us actually profess to having any beliefs whatsoever in any way related to Christmas and most reject the notion of Christ out of hand. Funny old paradoxical world in that one thing many profess to want to protect their children from is also at the core of one thing we want our children to enjoy most (see also postings - 'The lies we tell children' and Lady Butler-Sloss report today)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-for-leaders-of-other-religions-a6762821.html


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2015)

My belief is that Christmas is for children and the enjoyment it brings. Incredibly obvious I know, but I liked it as a child with the 'magic' it entailed. I've carried that forward with my boys, giving them the excitement of Xmas without the christian message taking over. I'm happy with that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Piece said:



			My belief is that Christmas is for children and the enjoyment it brings. Incredibly obvious I know, but I liked it as a child with the 'magic' it entailed. I've carried that forward with my boys, giving them the excitement of Xmas without the christian message taking over. I'm happy with that.
		
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Like your referring to it as Xmas.  Guessing then you're not that keen on your children participating in Nativity Plays?  What do you tell your children it's all about.


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## woody69 (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like your referring to it as Xmas.  Guessing then you're not that keen on your children participating in Nativity Plays?  What do you tell your children it's all about.
		
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When my son is old enough to go to school, if they held a nativity play, I would have no issue with him playing the lead role. Just because I don't believe in God or the fact a gentleman called Jesus was anything more than a very influential person at the time he was alive and as his story has been passed down through the years the truth may have become shall we say, stretched a little it doesn't mean I can't enjoy my son up on stage partaking in such an event (however made up it is) and it doesn't mean we can't enjoy Christmas as anything other than a chance to spend some time with us as a family, eat lots of food, drink and generally enjoy ourselves.


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like your referring to it as Xmas.  Guessing then you're not that keen on your children participating in Nativity Plays?  What do you tell your children it's all about.
		
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Xmas? Christmas? It's the same to me.

Quite the opposite with nativities. The kids want to do it because it's what happens at Xmas. They learn about the christian message from the school, as it's a CoE primary. If they have questions I'll tell them the honest answers.


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## User20205 (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like your referring to it as Xmas.  Guessing then you're not that keen on your children participating in Nativity Plays?  What do you tell your children it's all about.
		
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I'm not sure what your point is. People take what they want from Christian tradition, celebrate Xmas and Easter, but don't self flagellate the rest of the year. 

Your mob should be grateful for the publicity. Without Christmas it would be a lot less


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## richart (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pity less than half of us actually profess to having any beliefs whatsoever in any way related to Christmas and most reject the notion of Christ out of hand. Funny old paradoxical world in that one thing many profess to want to protect their children from is also at the core of one thing we want our children to enjoy most (see also postings - 'The lies we tell children' and Lady Butler-Sloss report today)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-for-leaders-of-other-religions-a6762821.html

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 Pity is a word you may use, but I certainly wouldn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

richart said:



			Pity is a word you may use, but I certainly wouldn't.
		
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I use 'pity' simply on the grounds that 'my mob' feel Christmas can be much more meaningful and enjoyable if you have a Christian belief.  I absolutely understand that having an event at this time of year (or any time of year in fact) that brings families together is a great thing.  

The paradox to me is simply that many of us are enjoying and celebrating - to one degree or another - something that we don't actually believe in. Maybe in time Christmas will be left to 'my mob' and the majority will move their celebrations to Thanksgiving - which does seem more aligned to what the majority feel (only kidding - I think...)

I note that my thoughts on this were provoked by listening to Lady Butler-Sloss this morning; wondering where we are going as a 'self-proclaimed' Christian country (or not as the case may be) - and what that might mean for such as Christmas and Easter

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-for-leaders-of-other-religions-a6762821.html


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## garyinderry (Dec 7, 2015)

For I am a jealous God. Xmas is a false idol


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## User20205 (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I use 'pity' simply on the grounds that 'my mob' feel Christmas can be much more meaningful and enjoyable if you have a Christian belief.  I absolutely understand that having an event at this time of year (or any time of year in fact) that brings families together is a great thing.  

The paradox to me is simply that many of us are enjoying and celebrating - to one degree or another - something that we don't actually believe in. Maybe in time Christmas will be left to 'my mob' and the majority will move their celebrations to Thanksgiving - which does seem more aligned to what the majority feel (only kidding - I think...)

I note that my thoughts on this were provoked by listening to Lady Butler-Sloss this morning; wondering where we are going as a 'self-proclaimed' Christian country (or not as the case may be) - and what that might mean for such as Christmas and Easter

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-for-leaders-of-other-religions-a6762821.html

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Wasn't a 'winter festival' celebrated pre baby Jebuz?? Before it got hijacked


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2015)

therod said:



			Wasn't a 'winter festival' celebrated pre baby Jebuz?? Before it got hijacked 

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I would call it the midwinter feast.
It was celebrated for many many thousands of years before the Christian belief started.

Regarding the Christian lords, like royalty, well past their sell by dates in a modern society and should be phased out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

therod said:



			Wasn't a 'winter festival' celebrated pre baby Jebuz?? Before it got hijacked 

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I believe so.  In much the same way as 'Halloween' was celebrated before All Saints (Hallows) Day came along (see Samhain)


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I use 'pity' simply on the grounds that 'my mob' feel Christmas *can be much more meaningful and enjoyable if you have a Christian belief*.  I absolutely understand that having an event at this time of year (or any time of year in fact) that brings families together is a great thing.  

The paradox to me is simply that many of us are enjoying and celebrating - to one degree or another - something that we don't actually believe in. Maybe in time Christmas will be left to 'my mob' and the majority will move their celebrations to Thanksgiving - which does seem more aligned to what the majority feel (only kidding - I think...)]
		
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Interesting turn of phrase. Implying that if you're not a believer then you won't have as much fun at this time of year as those that do? Christmas means different things to different families, all enjoyed at the same level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2015)

Piece said:



			Interesting turn of phrase. Implying that if you're not a believer then you won't have as much fun at this time of year as those that do? Christmas means different things to different families, all enjoyed at the same level.
		
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I certainly enjoy Xmas more when religion isn't involved


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2015)

Tough choice! Go to church, wrapped up to the nines, freezing your bits off, or stay at home getting a touch merry on cooking sherry and joking with the family. I don't need the parish priest telling me what I should be thinking of at Christmas.

Personally, I think it should be every individual's choice what they do. I hope everyone enjoys Christmas to the level theywant to.

Perversely, having posted the above, I will be at midnight mass on Christmas Eve, and there'll be Christmas Carols and songs blasting out of our dvd player on Christmas Day.

Ho ho ho! Merry Christmas everyone. Ho ho ho.


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## Maninblack4612 (Dec 7, 2015)

therod said:



			Wasn't a 'winter festival' celebrated pre baby Jebuz?? Before it got hijacked 

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You're right,  every Christmas tradition has pre Christian pagan origins,  we've got a Ladybird book at home which explains it all for the kids. I am also informed that the time of year it is celebrated is also wrong because the shepherds wouldn't be out with their flocks at that time of the year. The non Christmas celebrating Christians (there are a few) also point out that,  although there is no clue to the date of Christ's birth in the Bible,  the date of his death can be calculated to the day, which,  they contend,  is the only date that should be celebrated. I don't necessarily subscribe to this belief but it's an interesting point of view.


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 7, 2015)

Each to their own but it's all just another "lie we tell our children".


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## Beezerk (Dec 7, 2015)

Didn't the Pagans 'invent' the festival now known as Christmas and the Christian church hijacked it for their own purposes centuries later?


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## chippa1909 (Dec 7, 2015)

It's really Santa's birthday.


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## Smiffy (Dec 7, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Each to their own but it's all just another "lie we tell our children".
		
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But isn't it nice to see their smiling, happy faces and watch their excitement build on the run up to the big day?
They are not kids for long. Long may it last.
Peace on earth, and goodwill to *ALL* men.........even those that lie to their children.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			But isn't it nice to see their smiling, happy faces and watch their excitement build on the run up to the big day?
They are not kids for long. Long may it last.
		
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Without doubt this ^^^^....

Missed much of my own kids 'growing up'...
So, making the most of my second chance with my grandsons...

Currently smiling from ear to ear listening to the youngest chirping

"Here we go off to Bethlehem"....


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 7, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			But isn't it nice to see their smiling, happy faces and watch their excitement build on the run up to the big day?
They are not kids for long. Long may it last.
Peace on earth, and goodwill to *ALL* men.........even those that lie to their children.
		
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I love Christmas, a chance to relax with family, forget work for a while and basically enjoy the holidays......but that's all it is to me. My comment above was simply aimed at the religious component. Yes, the holidays are rooted in the religious festival but as per the OP those religious links are increasingly an irrelevance in modern society.


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## Rooter (Dec 7, 2015)

I love Xmas and am 100% atheist. My kids are free to believe what they want and they do know the story of Jesus and Bethlehem etc, but have never told them it's rubbish, they can make their own minds up and if when they are old enough to make a decision they can get christened, baptised, whatever, but I am not forcing them to believe. For me, it's a week off work, excited children, good food, family and everyone in a great mood.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Piece said:



			Interesting turn of phrase. Implying that if you're not a believer then you won't have as much fun at this time of year as those that do? Christmas means different things to different families, all enjoyed at the same level.
		
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I tried to be precise about what I said and your implication drawn does not necessarily hold true - for a start I said '_*can'*_ not '*will*' but clearly if we all get as much enjoyment as each other over being together at Christmas and giving and receiving gifts - then if there is something on top of that that enables some to take additional meaning from Christmas then that * can* add to the enjoyment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I certainly enjoy Xmas more when religion isn't involved
		
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Got problems typing the word Christmas then? - not just you of course - loving how folks seem to be trying to make a point by doing this?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			Didn't the Pagans 'invent' the festival now known as Christmas and the Christian church hijacked it for their own purposes centuries later?
		
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See the Gaelic Samhain


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## Old Skier (Dec 7, 2015)

Anyone who turns water into wine gets my vote.


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2015)

Piece said:



			Interesting turn of phrase. Implying that if you're not a believer then you won't have as much fun at this time of year as those that do? Christmas means different things to different families, all enjoyed at the same level.
		
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'can be' is not the same as 'is'!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Got problems typing the word Christmas then? - not just you of course - loving how folks seem to be trying to make a point by doing this? 

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Have always typed it Xmas - far easier and there is no meaning behind my reason for doing so - certainly not making a point


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			'can be' is not the same as 'is'!
		
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Quite - I should add that I love our church being really busy for our Carol service and Christmas Eve and Christmas Day services, and don't care one jot if many of those present don't see the inside of a church, and wouldn't be seen in one, the rest of the year.  Makes the time of year and these services even better for those of us who take a bit on the spiritual side from Christmas.  Just magical hearing everyone in a full church enjoying singing the carols and enjoying our church - all decked out with it's glad rags on.   And maybe - just maybe - one or two might think it a nice thing to come along on a more regular basis.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have always typed it Xmas - far easier and there is no meaning behind my reason for doing so - certainly not making a point
		
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Good man  :thup:


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:
			
		


			I tried to be precise about what I said and your implication drawn does not necessarily hold true - for a start I said 'can' not 'will' but clearly if we all get as much enjoyment as each other over being together at Christmas and giving and receiving gifts - then if there is something on top of that that enables some to take additional meaning from Christmas then that can add to the enjoyment
		
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Foxholer said:



			'can be' is not the same as 'is'!
		
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Really?!? :smirk: hence the word 'implying' in my response 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Got problems typing the word Christmas then? - not just you of course - loving how folks seem to be trying to make a point by doing this? 

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Genuine question: what point? 'Xmas' is just quicker to write that's all. Nothing sinister, no hidden agenda or points scoring...

EDIT: I see LP has beaten me to it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Piece said:



			Really?!? :smirk: hence the word 'implying' in my response 

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Imply to me means one thing logically follows from the other.  So for instance advertisers of weight loss products are always very careful to tell us that taking their product *can *lead to weight loss - and avoid implying that their product *will *lead to weight loss.  That is all that I said.

The context of my OP was what Lady Butler-Sloss said about Britain no longer being a Christian Country - so aspects of Christianity that are part of our day-to-day life should not be so protected or promoted.  I have to admit that I'm rather suspicious of those who promote and shout loud about the UK being a Christian country therefore X, Y, Z - when much of the time they have a pretty non-Christian agenda.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Got problems typing the word Christmas then? - not just you of course - loving how folks seem to be trying to make a point by doing this? 

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I'm not a great fan of Xmas but it's pervasive in our society so I go along with it. No religious connotation for me, however, just a traditional holiday that we use to cheer ourselves up on the cold wet winter nights.

I do deliberately write Xmas to further divorce it from christianty. I'm quite unapologetic about that although I can see why christians get irked by it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm not a great fan of Xmas but it's pervasive in our society so I go along with it. No religious connotation for me, however, just a traditional holiday that we use to cheer ourselves up on the cold wet winter nights.

I do deliberately write Xmas to further divorce it from christianty. I'm quite unapologetic about that although I can see why christians get irked by it.
		
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:thup: though only a very wee bit irked.


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I do deliberately write Xmas to further divorce it from christianty. I'm quite unapologetic about that although I can see why christians get irked by it.
		
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Done some of my own Googling on the origins of "Xmas" and seems there's common misconceptions and beliefs about its use and intended purpose.


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## Alex1975 (Dec 7, 2015)

Its not a paradox for me, its a massive pain in the butt. I am not religious and I think its ridiculous that I have to celebrate a religious holiday. I did not enjoy it as a child as my parents are people I would rather not be around and cannot behave(they are regular church goers and christian). Its become a huge money sink, its far more about buying crap than actually getting something that someone might want.... Bar humbug! Its a hallmark holiday and I will not actually relax until its all over and have a nice break between the 27th and the 4th.

I have been told to belt up and make it magical for my little girl and I will. She is welcome to go in the nativity in the same way that I am happy for her school to teach her about Jewish holidays and many other religions. When the time is right she will make her own mind up, I will not be forcing my own miserable view on to her.


No matter what is said, go to any major British city and it becomes very clear that we are multicultural, how can a country be a religion.


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## user2010 (Dec 7, 2015)

Rooter said:



			I love Xmas and am 100% atheist. My kids are free to believe what they want and they do know the story of Jesus and Bethlehem etc, but have never told them it's rubbish, they can make their own minds up and if when they are old enough to make a decision they can get christened, baptised, whatever, but I am not forcing them to believe. For me, it's a week off work, excited children, good food, family and everyone in a great mood.
		
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^^^^^^^Is the correct interpretation of Christmas in the McBoogerballs home.......spot on Sir


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## Jates12 (Dec 7, 2015)

Christmas is a time for me to see friends that I no longer see on a regular basis in my hometown pubs, eating lots of incredible food with my family members and enjoying a few days off work. Its something to look forward to between my birthdays!

Im probably a lot closer that most of you to being a "kid" but i still absolutely love christmas and everything that goes into it, me and my girlfriend go all out and buy each other lovely gifts that we wouldnt get each other at any other time of year.

We are by no means religious.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 7, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone who turns water into wine gets my vote.
		
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Ive been turning Wine into Water for years 
also my Birthday is on the 27th December (Hint Hint), that makes me a Capricorn, JC was a Capricorn and thats about as far as it goes for me.

Its a mid winter festival, a chance to take a few days out, catch up with family & friends, eat and drink a bit too much and watch some rubbish TV.

But to those who believe, fair play and Happy Christmas


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## Alex1975 (Dec 7, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ive been turning Wine into Water for years 
also my Birthday is on the 27th December (Hint Hint), that makes me a Capricorn, JC was a Capricorn and thats about as far as it goes for me.

Its a mid winter festival, a chance to take a few days out, catch up with family & friends, eat and drink a bit too much and watch some rubbish TV.

But to those who believe, fair play and Happy Christmas
		
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Says here that JC was born in October?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Snead


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2015)

Christmas is for atheists too. It a time of year when the kids get presents, parents get off work (if they are lucky) and everyone eats and drinks a bit too much. I am entirely comfortable with that being a secular holiday where religion is optional. I opt out. 

Likewise, happy to eat Easter eggs in the spring. I don't do lent, though. 

As others have said these holidays sometimes predate organised religion. It is ironic that the Americans who get quite serious about their religion, are particularly keen on Hallowe'en, a pagan festival from ancient Celtic times.


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Says here that JC was born in October?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Snead

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I think he meant Jeremy Corbyn, you heathen. 6 months ago, if you asked Ed Miliband who would have followed him as leader, he would have given shorter odds on someone rising from the dead than Jeremy Corbyn.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 7, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Says here that JC was born in October?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Snead

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An un-believer.....Burn Him


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## Alex1975 (Dec 7, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I think he meant Jeremy Corbyn, you heathen. 6 months ago, if you asked Ed Miliband who would have followed him as leader, he would have given shorter odds on someone rising from the dead than Jeremy Corbyn.
		
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:clap: :rofl:


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 7, 2015)

I always thought the 25th December was long ago a Pagan date that was appropriated by the Christian bodies to subvert the Pagans, just as the Missionaries subverted the African countries.
The Spirit of Christmas is what is important for me. It's the one time of the year people generally will still be civil to strangers, wish anyone well, help anyone and generally be kind. 
You don't need religion to be  a nice person.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Its not a paradox for me, its a massive pain in the butt. I am not religious and I think its ridiculous that I have to celebrate a religious holiday. I did not enjoy it as a child as my parents are people I would rather not be around and cannot behave(they are regular church goers and christian). Its become a huge money sink, its far more about buying crap than actually getting something that someone might want.... Bar humbug! Its a hallmark holiday and I will not actually relax until its all over and have a nice break between the 27th and the 4th.

I have been told to belt up and make it magical for my little girl and I will. She is welcome to go in the nativity in the same way that I am happy for her school to teach her about Jewish holidays and many other religions. When the time is right she will make her own mind up, I will not be forcing my own miserable view on to her.


No matter what is said, go to any major British city and it becomes very clear that we are multicultural, how can a country be a religion.
		
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A good honest reply that shows that you are able to dismiss even the slightest accusations of hypocrisy :thup:  I'm thinking a UK version of Thanksgiving would be more your cup of tea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ive been turning Wine into Water for years 
also my Birthday is on the 27th December (Hint Hint), that makes me a Capricorn, JC was a Capricorn and thats about as far as it goes for me.

Its a mid winter festival, a chance to take a few days out, catch up with family & friends, eat and drink a bit too much and watch some rubbish TV.

But to those who believe, fair play and Happy Christmas
		
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Thankyou Sir.  However being pedantic I believe that Merry Christmas (and Happy New Year) is the preferred greeting


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## louise_a (Dec 7, 2015)

Although not being religious, I do like to see it written as Christmas rather than Xmas.  

My thoughts on the celebration generally is that it is a time for families and children, I do think that the whole circus surrounding starts it  far too early and it is just far too commercialised.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Says here that JC was born in October?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Snead

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See - that's what what happened when two months (January and February) were added to the Roman calendar - yer October became December.


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A good honest reply that shows that you are able to dismiss even the slightest accusations of hypocrisy :thup:  I'm thinking a UK version of Thanksgiving would be more your cup of tea.
		
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That is a religious festival too, and has just as much commercial hype around it. Black Friday, for example.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I always thought the 25th December was long ago a Pagan date that was appropriated by the Christian bodies to subvert the Pagans, just as the Missionaries subverted the African countries.
The Spirit of Christmas is what is important for me. It's the one time of the year people generally will still be civil to strangers, wish anyone well, help anyone and generally be kind. 
You don't need religion to be  a nice person.
		
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You most certainly don't - and quite some number of Christian folks can be rather not very nice - despite the beliefs they profess


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2015)

Ethan said:



			That is a religious festival too, and has just as much commercial hype around it. Black Friday, for example.
		
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Maybe in it's practice - but surely related to the harvest period coming to a close rather than anything religious


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 7, 2015)

@ Swingit..

Perhaps then you dont offer the friendliness yourself first. Christmas is the only time I see where you can wish someone you don't know a "Merry Christmas" (and usually getting a likewise) without them thinking you're a peado/pervert/scum/con artist/nosey buisy body etc etc.
As for Christians not being very nice, it amazes me the number if "Christians"  I have known in my life who have cheated, embezelled,committed crimes, had multiple affairs and still proclaim their religion. Simple answer whould be to ban all religions the World over. You don't need a religion to be a nicer person, it's just easier to hide behind when you aren't.


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## rksquire (Dec 7, 2015)

It's an interesting thread, not least the reaction to religious types & views.  

Christmas is linked to religion, the clue is in the title, doesn't really matter if it gets shortened to Xmas for 'expedient' typing.... a lot of people don't like the British but I can't see there being a huge uptake to call it the Xish Masters next year, although it is quicker to type.  But really, the Christ bit is avoidable if you really don't like it - similarly, it's there for people who want to enjoy it.  As for the time of year it's at, lots of reasons why it was chosen (probably) and although it's not the right date, it's not an arbitrary time of year (based on pagan festivals, solstice, etc.).  

No need for people to go out of their way to offend or be offended, each 'mob' can enjoy it in their own way.  Of course, only one 'mob' will be able to play golf for all eternity without getting their arses burnt & continually see their putts lip out.....


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe in it's practice - but surely related to the harvest period coming to a close rather than anything religious
		
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Well, according to a well known online source of info, it was established as a public holiday by Abraham Lincoln to give "Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens". Sounds kinda religious to me. At least they didn't say 'who dwelleth in the United Sates'.


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## sev112 (Dec 7, 2015)

Anyway Xmas means exactly the same as C hristmas because X is the Greek Letter "chi" (pronounced keye, or ki). So you are actually saying the same thing


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like your referring to it as Xmas.  Guessing then you're not that keen on your children participating in Nativity Plays?  What do you tell your children it's all about.
		
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Interesting read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas


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## Alex1975 (Dec 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A good honest reply that shows that you are able to dismiss even the slightest accusations of hypocrisy :thup:  I'm thinking a UK version of Thanksgiving would be more your cup of tea.
		
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100%, I have lots to be thankful for!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2015)

For me Christmas has always broken down into a number of distinct memories

1-14 - enjoyed it as a kid and teenager as a family event, the presents, and the whole "mystery" of the occasion as a youngster
15-19 - had outgrown the excitement bit - caught in the teenage trap of wanting to spend the dinner, TV etc but not into the day, the context etc. As an only child going through issues with my mum these don't really register in the memory
20-30 - young adult Christmas was an excuse to get on it, with mates and my old man from early December. Meant more from 26 on when I met the now missus and so it became more of an event (two families to keep happy, more pressies to by)
31-40 - Christmas was just my wife and I (no kids) so the day itself was just us and as special as we wanted to make it
40-45 - having been seriously ill, lost my dad lost it spark again. Day spent on my own, mum looked after by neighbours
46-49 lost my mum so technically now orphaned. Nothing to really get excited about. In laws come over each year. Enjoy them coming as the wife is happy fussing over them.

Quite simply it's never been anything religious for me. I'm not from a religious family and while I get what it means to many, and I respect the reverence of this for them, Christmas has never really been a be all and end all day. I don't know what that really says about me and where I fall into this paradox but we'll greet the in laws again this year as has become the custom, enjoy a good meal, a nice wine or two and relax in front of some mindless TV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2015)

Enjoy spending lots of time eating and drinking with family - especially the fun times with the nephews and nieces 

Enjoying spoiling as many as possible


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## bladeplayer (Dec 7, 2015)

Most on here know my beliefs & thoughts on religious matters , Christmas like all holidays has been hijacked by commercialism and religious beliefs have waned & probably been lost by the newer/younger generations .. Times have changed & ordinary folk became more educated & smart enough not to believe everything they were told no matter what ..

Faith & belief. the secret is in the names , powerful things both & who is anybody to question anothers faith or belief , ok , question it but at least respect the persons right to believe in it if they want ... 

You get 2 real shots at Christmas , your own & your kids , as for the lies I tell my kids I will try protect them as they grow , advise & educate them to the level so as they grow older they can make their own choices & I will respect their choices as much as I do everyone elses .. 

Just curious for the people who call it xmas , doesn't bother me what you call it by the way, but is it the Christ bit you object to? , if you object to a celebration because its partially called Christ do you not think that's a bit ott ? whats in a name , regarding a holiday/featival ..     100% genuine question by the way 
For those that say its just easier do you X Hallow of Halloween or Valentine in valentines day 

 What ever you believe I hope you & your families have a great fun & love packed one , enjoy all the good days you can , life is short & no one gets out of it alive  ..

Happy Christmas


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## Crazyface (Dec 8, 2015)

If you celebrate Christmas in anyway then you are celebrating a Christian thing, ergo you are a Christian. If you do not believe in the Christian faith then why are you celebrating Christmas? And don't give me that rubbish that the Christians kidnapped anothers holiday. What rot! We give presents because we were taught that the Three Kings turned up with gifts for the baby Jesus. So, again, if you don't believe then why give gifts? 
It is a time of the year that fills even the hardest of hearts with joy, and hopefully, the will to do something good for their fellow man.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If you celebrate Christmas in anyway then you are celebrating a Christian thing, ergo you are a Christian. If you do not believe in the Christian faith then why are you celebrating Christmas? And don't give me that rubbish that the Christians kidnapped anothers holiday. What rot! We give presents because we were taught that the Three Kings turned up with gifts for the baby Jesus. So, again, if you don't believe then why give gifts? 
It is a time of the year that fills even the hardest of hearts with joy, and hopefully, the will to do something good for their fellow man.
		
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cos we get a holiday and we all get stuff - so things to celebrate!  

Except - as you say - it's actually the other way round.  

But not a view that seems to be held by that many on these boards - which may be just as well since if there weren't plenty of largely agnostic/atheist golfers then Sunday morning comps would be pretty poorly subscribed.


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## Slab (Dec 8, 2015)

A paradox is only there if your looking for it 

The office is pretty multicultural with Hindus, Tamils, Muslims, Christians and maybe some more for all I know, as well as those of us that don't follow a religion 

The varying festivals for all of the above religions and cultures are celebrated throughout the year inc Eid, Diwali, Chinese New Year, Christmas etc and not just celebrated by those of any specific denomination there seems to be plenty of 'cross-celebration' goes on too  

Pretty much everyone's looking forward to Christmas although its safe to say celebrating the New year is a much bigger deal 

Hope everyone enjoys theirs


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## User62651 (Dec 8, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If you celebrate Christmas in anyway then you are celebrating a Christian thing, ergo you are a Christian. If you do not believe in the Christian faith then why are you celebrating Christmas? And don't give me that rubbish that the Christians kidnapped anothers holiday. What rot! We give presents because we were taught that the Three Kings turned up with gifts for the baby Jesus. So, again, if you don't believe then why give gifts? 
It is a time of the year that fills even the hardest of hearts with joy, and hopefully, the will to do something good for their fellow man.
		
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Cant really agree with this, I was brought up Christian, made to go to Sunday School and then Church but it never at any point became ingrained, I was fairly indifferent even bored with it and now am generally agnostic, open to faith but it's never found me. I did however love Christmas as a child particularly and readily sung carols and did nativity plays etc as it was fun doing it with friends, as an adult however it was just the holiday and time with family which was fun (to a point) and is enjoyable mostly. 
I do go occasionally to a Christmas service, the only time in the year I might attend church but that's not because I believe in god or follow Jesus, its just a nice thing to do occasionally to meet people and sing a few carols or have a walk in the snow at night and then a wee dram or two. I am not a follower of Christ but like most people enjoy some cultural traditions be they based on fact or nonsense.
The Christmas festival has taken a lot of Pagan traditions into Christianity, that is not rot - the holly and ivy, the tree taken indoors, mistletoe are all pagan as they were celebrated long before Jesus, in the Saturnia festival as anything that was seen as evergreen or alive in midwinter was celebrated. Teutonic peoples took a tree inside to warm up the Sylvan spirits they believed in. If you wanted to get people onside you absorbed their beliefs/traditions into your religion. The St Nicholas element, the gift giving, the star on the tree top - they are all very Christian I agree. However St Nicholas was from somewhere in Greece originally so how he now lives immortally in Lapland or the North Pole or wherever with his flying reindeer and elves, in the snow - beats me! We know he wore black also, the red suit came about in the 19th century from an American store or something like that. How kids are expected to believe in Santa until they are 9 or 10 then give up on that belief yet still believe in God is beyond me, one myth is the same as the next.
Until recently people were afraid to say they don't believe in God, it was taboo and punishable, all religion was/is control by fear imo - Do as we say, not as you think. Thank goodness our society doesn't judge us any more on religious grounds, freedom of choice is key.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 8, 2015)

maxfli65 said:



			Cant really agree with this, I was brought up Christian, made to go to Sunday School and then Church but it never at any point became ingrained, I was fairly indifferent even bored with it and now am generally agnostic, open to faith but it's never found me. I did however love Christmas as a child particularly and readily sung carols and did nativity plays etc as it was fun doing it with friends, as an adult however it was just the holiday and time with family which was fun (to a point) and is enjoyable mostly. 
I do go occasionally to a Christmas service, the only time in the year I might attend church but that's not because I believe in god or follow Jesus, its just a nice thing to do occasionally to meet people and sing a few carols or have a walk in the snow at night and then a wee dram or two. I am not a follower of Christ but like most people enjoy some cultural traditions be they based on fact or nonsense.
The Christmas festival has taken a lot of Pagan traditions into Christianity, that is not rot - the holly and ivy, the tree taken indoors, mistletoe are all pagan as they were celebrated long before Jesus, in the Saturnia festival as anything that was seen as evergreen or alive in midwinter was celebrated. Teutonic peoples took a tree inside to warm up the Sylvan spirits they believed in. If you wanted to get people onside you absorbed their beliefs/traditions into your religion. The St Nicholas element, the gift giving, the star on the tree top - they are all very Christian I agree. However St Nicholas was from somewhere in Greece originally so how he now lives immortally in Lapland or the North Pole or wherever with his flying reindeer and elves, in the snow - beats me! We know he wore black also, the red suit came about in the 19th century from an American store or something like that. How kids are expected to believe in Santa until they are 9 or 10 then give up on that belief yet still believe in God is beyond me, one myth is the same as the next.
Until recently people were afraid to say they don't believe in God, it was taboo and punishable, all religion was/is control by fear imo - Do as we say, not as you think. Thank goodness our society doesn't judge us any more on religious grounds, freedom of choice is key.
		
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I thought Coca Cola changed the Santa colour from green to red, to match their colours and be more jolly, and thus it stuck.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If you celebrate Christmas in anyway then you are celebrating a Christian thing, ergo you are a Christian. If you do not believe in the Christian faith then why are you celebrating Christmas? And don't give me that rubbish that the Christians kidnapped anothers holiday. What rot! We give presents because we were taught that the Three Kings turned up with gifts for the baby Jesus. So, again, if you don't believe then why give gifts? 
It is a time of the year that fills even the hardest of hearts with joy, and hopefully, the will to do something good for their fellow man.
		
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What does celebrate Christmas mean? We give our kids presents, Santa visits (and he is largely a creation of Coca-Cola anyway), there is a dinner with turkey, there is a tree with tinsel. The kids love it. 

But we don't go to church, I don't believe in God, heaven, hell, angels or anything supernatural. There were no three kings. 

I am not endorsing any of the Christian story or suggesting for a second I believe a word of it by having turkey or putting up tinsel.


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## woody69 (Dec 8, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I thought Coca Cola changed the Santa colour from green to red, to match their colours and be more jolly, and thus it stuck.
		
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Not quite. Before the Coca&#8209;Cola Santa was even created, St Nick had appeared in numerous illustrations and written descriptions wearing a scarlet coat. Coke did however play a big role in shaping the jolly, fat character we know today. Check out the Swedish-American artist Haddon Sundblom if you want to know more.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2015)

As a child I can well remember my father working on Christmas day in Scotland.
It was not a statuary day off
He had two days off for NewYear and the day after which were statuary.


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## woody69 (Dec 8, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If you celebrate Christmas in anyway then you are celebrating a Christian thing, *ergo you are a Christian*. If you do not believe in the Christian faith then why are you celebrating Christmas? And don't give me that rubbish that the Christians kidnapped anothers holiday. What rot! We give presents because we were taught that the Three Kings turned up with gifts for the baby Jesus. So, again, *if you don't believe then why give gifts*? 
It is a time of the year that fills even the hardest of hearts with joy, and hopefully, the will to do something good for their fellow man.
		
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What an absolute crock.

I give my family and friends gifts because it gives me a chance to spoil them and it makes me feel good seeing their faces. I fully accept that a lot of the origins of Christmas come from a Christian story (mixed with other elements), but just because I enjoy some of the traditions doesn't make me "Christian" the same way that putting up a Christmas tree in my house doesn't make me a Pagan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As a child I can well remember my father working on Christmas day in Scotland.
It was not a statuary day off
He had two days off for NewYear and the day after which were statuary.
		
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Me too - my dad worked Christmas Day morning and then his work let everyone go after a wee lunchtime Christmas dram and presents given by the boss to each worker.  We dug into our Christmas stocking but don't think we opened our presents until he got home from work. Can't recall when he started getting Christmas Day off but we must have been little - so early 1960s.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2015)

Sometimes I think we over think far too much in modern life. Enjoy good food, with good company and give and receive presents.


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sometimes I think we over think far too much in modern life. Enjoy good food, with good company and give and receive presents.
		
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This!

And remember to live and let live.


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## Smiffy (Dec 9, 2015)

woody69 said:



			What an absolute crock.

I give my family and friends gifts because it gives me a chance to spoil them and it makes me feel good seeing their faces. I fully accept that a lot of the origins of Christmas come from a Christian story (mixed with other elements), but just because I enjoy some of the traditions doesn't make me "Christian" the same way that putting up a Christmas tree in my house doesn't make me a Pagan.
		
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True dat


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2015)

My golf mate and his family are from India, they put up a tree, decorations and give presents but they aren't Christian!


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## Rooter (Dec 9, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sometimes I think we over think far too much in modern life. Enjoy good food, with good company and give and receive presents.
		
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Amen!

oooops...


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## Piece (Dec 9, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sometimes I think we over think far too much in modern life. Enjoy good food, with good company and give and receive presents.
		
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This. :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

chrisd said:



			My golf mate and his family are from India, they put up a tree, decorations and give presents but they aren't Christian!
		
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they are clearly a very well integrated and culturally sensitive family - and happy to adopt any old excuse for a party


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

Rooter said:



			Amen!

oooops...
		
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so be it!


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## williamalex1 (Dec 9, 2015)

A merry xmas and a happy Christmas to you Hugh, now where's my pressie.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			A merry xmas and a happy Christmas to you Hugh, now where's my pressie.

Click to expand...

Next time we play I'll give you a couple more shots 

Meanwhile it'll have to just be a big thankyou...:thup:


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## williamalex1 (Dec 9, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Next time we play I'll give you a couple more shots 

Meanwhile it'll have to just be a big thankyou...:thup:
		
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After my fitting tomorrow i hope i'll be giving you shots :rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			After my fitting tomorrow i hope i'll be giving you shots :rofl:
		
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..and I would gladly accept them...guessing your track is a bit squelchy after all the rain...


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## JustOne (Dec 9, 2015)

Happy to celebrate 'People Day' if someone wants to change the name.

We can have a tree with lights on, give gifts, eat good food and even have some special songs/dances made up.


Religion is for weak minded hypocrites.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 9, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and I would gladly accept them...guessing your track is a bit squelchy after all the rain...
		
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Played a few last week and it was not too bad , but it will be a bog now after all that rain.
 I'll just have to pester some links members for an invite.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Happy to celebrate 'People Day' if someone wants to change the name.

We can have a tree with lights on, give gifts, eat good food and even have some special songs/dances made up.


*Religion is for weak minded hypocrites.*

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I thank you for your kind and understanding words.


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## JustOne (Dec 9, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thank you for your kind and understanding words.
		
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You'd like to kill all homosexuals?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			You'd like to kill all homosexuals?
		
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Q.E.D.


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