# Where does the power come from in the swing?



## stefanovic (Jun 23, 2019)

As I'm a bit dazed of reading all the conflicting information on this I'm just wondering if any of the advice ever worked for you?
Grip, body turn, club lag, distance through resistance, shoulder and hip turn, going to the gym. 
I tried all these and the end result was I still couldn't hit the ball > 200 yards. 
Sorry if I sound frustrated but did I miss something?
I think it's only down to natural ability.


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## Dibby (Jun 23, 2019)

Partly it's natural ability - why can some people jump higher, run faster, lift heavier things than others (assuming both have equal raining history)?

Partly it's a combination of everything else you mention, you can't change your natural ability, but you can improve your technique, strength, and mobility.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 23, 2019)

I would say there are so many factors
Why can a 6ft powerhouse hit 200 yards and a 9 stone wet through guy hit 300 yards.

Technique and timing maybe?


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Partly it's natural ability - why can some people jump higher, run faster, lift heavier things than others (assuming both have equal raining history)?

Partly it's a combination of everything else you mention, you can't change your natural ability, but you can improve your technique, strength, and mobility.
		
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Above is the complete answer!

No need for any further comment!

@OP. If you are not improving, then you are not employing exercises/drills correctly/effectively. A decent Pro will be able to spot the reason(s) for this immediately! In any case, you could devote more effort to improve your short game. Gaining 10 yards on drives and or irons pales significantly compared with getting 3 or 4 more chips/pitches into gimmee range and/or making a few more putts per round!


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## Dasit (Jun 24, 2019)

It is similar to throwing a ball. Some people can just throw a ball really far and some people can't.

Sequence of energy transfer, from using your legs bodys arms hands to create maximum whip when releasing


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## stefanovic (Jun 24, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I would say there are so many factors
Why can a 6ft powerhouse hit 200 yards and a 9 stone wet through guy hit 300 yards.
		
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That's what I was trying to establish. It seems to prove the powerhouse guy has no obvious advantage over the small person. 
I believe the 6 foot Faldo could not hit the ball as far as the 5 foot 4 Woosnam. It could be partly strength, balance and centre of gravity.
If I am to believe Hogan who was about the same dimensions as me then the power comes from a sequence which starts with the hands, then the arms, then the shoulders, then the hips initiating the downswing, followed by a lift off with the right heel.
This suggests a mental coordination which others have tried to copy but can never replicate. So I guess there must be some part of the brain involved in this.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 24, 2019)

You need to start at the beginning in your considerations - you are in danger of mixing up the what and how.

Distance comes from ball speed and launch conditions. For any given ball speed there will be launch conditions that deliver the greatest carry, and launch and ground conditions to deliver the greatest overall distance.
Accepting that the question becomes what delivers the ball speed?
The answer is that clubhead speed plus strike factors (closely related to launch conditions but with subtle differences) do that. Putting aside strike factors as a seperate, manageable and reasonably easy to comprehend set, you can focus on clubhead speed.
Clubhead speed is a very simple thing as well. At it's absolute simplest it represents the distance the club head travels in a given time.
If you consider the whole distance the club travels (downswing) it become clear that the larger the arc the head travels in the shortest time the faster it will have travelled as an average. However the only time the clubhead speed is translated into ball speed is at impact...so the equation becomes even simpler still.
You cannot move your hands particularily quickly when swinging them (you can in other motions but they aren't relevant), you need the clubhead to travel faster than your hands through a process of releasing it. That process starts as a mechanical, passive, one ie you can achieve a certain clubhead speed from a fundamentally mechanical process without any significant 'power'.
In reality through the application of the right process at the right time, and precision in the impact area, it's relatively straightforward to create 100mph club head speed at impact and a ball speed approaching 150mph with a driver.
The application of a little muscle may move that to 110/160.
Seriously well trained muscles can mover that up to the 120 or 125 area....and further if you are also able to increase the underlying mechanics (usually through long levers) but you put at risk the maintenance of your impact conditions.

In conclusion, the application of muscles and power has the least impact on the distance a player can get the ball to travel of nearly all the various factors in play.
Timing alone will deliver more clubhead speed than most handicap golfer ever achieve at impact; and impact conditions will convert it into the distances they never see in their playing career (let alone consistently).


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## stefanovic (Jun 24, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			you are in danger of mixing up the what and how.
		
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At least I never mix up the why and how.




			Clubhead speed is a very simple thing as well.
		
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I seem to recall it was Trevino who said if he knew a way to bottle up clubhead speed he would make more money than Mr. C/C (famous fizzy drink).




			At it's absolute simplest it represents the distance the club head travels in a given time.
		
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That is correct. Speed is distance over time. But acceleration of the clubhead requires the concept of gravity.




			If you consider the whole distance the club travels (downswing) it become clear that the larger the arc the head travels in the shortest time the faster it will have travelled as an average. However the only time the clubhead speed is translated into ball speed is at impact...so the equation becomes even simpler still.
		
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What equation? I assume you mean Newton's Force = Mass x Acceleration.  This is not simple at all. 
1) We now know that mass does not exist.
2) Acceleration is now treated in terms of the equivalence principle.




			... That process starts as a mechanical, passive, one ie you can achieve a certain clubhead speed from a fundamentally mechanical process without any significant 'power'.
		
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Lost me. What is a mechanical passive process?
I accept that power is just a metaphor being used here. But power does require a transfer of energy from somewhere, to the clubhead, which in turn activates a repulsion between the electons in the clubhead and the ball.




			In reality through the application of the right process at the right time, and precision in the impact area, it's relatively straightforward to create 100mph club head speed at impact and a ball speed approaching 150mph with a driver.
		
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I don't see that as being straight forward at all.




			The application of a little muscle may move that to 110/160.
		
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Which of the 800 muscles in the body should we use?




			... but you put at risk the maintenance of your impact conditions.
		
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Pardon?




			... impact conditions will convert it into the distances they never see in their playing career (let alone consistently).
		
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Whut?


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Foxholer said:



			Gaining 10 yards on drives and or irons pales significantly compared with getting 3 or 4 more chips/pitches into gimmee range and/or making a few more putts per round!
		
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Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			...
Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.
		
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A brave (if qualified) prediction! Can you guarantee that? And the same for me? My current Driver carry distance is 185-ish, so overall just a tad/few yards longer.

Good drill though!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			At least I never mix up the why and how.


I seem to recall it was Trevino who said if he knew a way to bottle up clubhead speed he would make more money than Mr. C/C (famous fizzy drink).


That is correct. Speed is distance over time. But acceleration of the clubhead requires the concept of gravity.


What equation? I assume you mean Newton's Force = Mass x Acceleration.  This is not simple at all.
1) We now know that mass does not exist.
2) Acceleration is now treated in terms of the equivalence principle.


Lost me. What is a mechanical passive process?
I accept that power is just a metaphor being used here. But power does require a transfer of energy from somewhere, to the clubhead, which in turn activates a repulsion between the electons in the clubhead and the ball.


I don't see that as being straight forward at all.


Which of the 800 muscles in the body should we use?


Pardon?


Whut?
		
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Jeez.


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A brave (if qualified) prediction! Can you guarantee that? And the same for me? My current Driver carry distance is 185-ish, so overall just a tad/few yards longer.

Good drill though!
		
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If the OP can only hit his driver 180-190 total, I would expect to be able to increase that to 230 minimum with that drill. Certainly a lot more than the 10 yard gain you suggested.
And out of interest, how do you know his short game isn't brilliant as he didn't complain about it.


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## Backache (Jun 25, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.
		
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Matter of interest what kind of time course would this be over?


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2019)

Backache said:



			Matter of interest what kind of time course would this be over?
		
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Difficult to say as each individual will learn at different rates, some practice more than others and some are stronger than others.
Having said that, I would expect to see an improvement after 2-3 sessions at the range but as the OP has some health issues it may take a little longer.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 25, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.
		
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This with bells on it. ^^^^
The OPs frustration is mine. In essence and for arguements sake my swing speed is 90 mph. I hit across the ball with a fade. It does not kill the distance the ball has travelled by 10 yds, it is more, a lot more . I had a lesson which explained what I was doing wrong. I played last week, I hit one which was sweet, no faster swing speed but everything clicked. It hit the middle of the fairway and ran and ran. I was 15 yds behind the big hitter in our group. I stood at my ball and looked back I was 80 plus yards in front of where my drive was two days earlier. And the week before and the week before.

Now I don't want to get technical, but during my lesson I was shown a video on you tube where Peter Cowan explains where power comes from. This is how I understood it.
As the arms come back from the take away. As the body turns, the power is generated from the top of the body twisting around and around down the body to the feet. On the down swing the power starts to be released in an opposite direction from the feet up through the legs, body, shoulders, arms and bang. In essence the coil helps to deliver the power. Now this is where hold my hands up coz I am sure there are other factors involved, ( inc straight left arm) coz the pro who gave me the lesson has txt me to say we need to build on that.
Furthermore I was coming across the ball which was a distance killer so I have had to change my swing angle, couple with the body turn. Is there a simple answer. Hell no, but I now have three drills which A, help with my swing path. B, also helps with a body turn to deliver power.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2019)

bobmac said:



			If the OP can only hit his driver 180-190 total, I would expect to be able to increase that to 230 minimum with that drill. Certainly a lot more than the 10 yard gain you suggested.
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Then I shall try exactly (only?) what you say, expecting (as you state) to gain 40-50 yards extra driving distance! 

It does, however (at least the way you have written it/I  have read it) seem to purely (only?) increase the amount of wrist through the strike. This appears to be at odds with Tashy's description of the Cowan 'spiral staircase' approach, that involves all elements of the body in the swing - or at least the legs and bod In the Cowan approach, the arms and wrists are virtually ignored/an afterthought that simply happen as a result of the 'uncoil'!



bobmac said:



			...And out of interest, how do you know his short game isn't brilliant as he didn't complain about it.
		
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Er... Where did I actually comment on the quality of his (current) short game? Was it not '... the benefits of getting 3 or 4 *MORE* chips/pitches within gimmee range...'?


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## stefanovic (Jun 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



*Now I don't want to get technical, but ... *during my lesson I was shown a video on you tube where Peter Cowan explains where power comes from. This is how I understood it.
As the arms come back from the take away. As the body turns, the power is generated from the top of the body twisting around and around down the body to the feet. On the down swing the power starts to be released in an opposite direction from the feet up through the legs, body, shoulders, arms and bang. In essence the coil helps to deliver the power.
		
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Sort of a centrifugal force which moves down then up? Lost me again. I know Faldo talked about this but for the average player who does not have the gadgets or the personal instruction I think you'll be concentrating too much on getting this to work and then forget to hit the ball. What initiates the backswing and the downswing here?


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## Backache (Jun 25, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Difficult to say as each individual will learn at different rates, some practice more than others and some are stronger than others.
Having said that, I would expect to see an improvement after 2-3 sessions at the range but as the OP has some health issues it may take a little longer.
		
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Mmm had a shot at the wrist stroke today up at the range, seemed to work thanks. Are there any videos on line of how to build it up? I would be interested in doing this as I've become a very short hitter over the last few years.


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## bobmac (Jun 25, 2019)

Backache said:



			Are there any videos on line of how to build it up? I would be interested in doing this as I've become a very short hitter over the last few years.
		
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Not that I know of, just a drill I used in lessons.
Just move on when you feel comfortable with the results


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## Backache (Jun 25, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Not that I know of, just a drill I used in lessons.
Just move on when you feel comfortable with the results
		
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OK cheers


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## Tashyboy (Jun 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Sort of a centrifugal force which moves down then up? Lost me again. I know Faldo talked about this but for the average player who does not have the gadgets or the personal instruction I think you'll be concentrating too much on getting this to work and then forget to hit the ball. What initiates the backswing and the downswing here?
		
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In essence for me, taking my straight left arm back/ or away from the target line, causes the body to automatically twist. Doing one thing causes the other to happen. ðŸ‘


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## Sairamtim (Jul 5, 2019)

This is an interesting topic. I only started playing at the start of the year and the only natural talent beyond the norm is the distance i hit the ball. I have no idea why I can swing the club fast but I can. I boxed for years so I wonder if that is partly it. It sounds bizarre but boxing is a sport which is all about rotating the body to harness power.
Anyway (shameless brag) I hit a 7 iron 190 yards carry fairly regularly. I hit the 5 iron 220, 230 yards. I have hot a hybrid 250 or so fairly often. However it is very inconsistent. I beleive that it isnt just about club head speed and impact conditions. I definitely believe weight transference has a large effect too.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 6, 2019)

Sairamtim said:



			I beleive that it isnt just about club head speed and impact conditions. I definitely believe weight transference has a large effect too.
		
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No, ball speed is all about clubhead speed and impact conditions...but weight transference will be an element in the creation of clubhead speed for most golfers.
As proof I would highlight that there is no weight transference in the mechanical golfers such as Iron Byron - it's all levers.


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## chrisd (Jul 6, 2019)

Sairamtim said:



			This is an interesting topic. I only started playing at the start of the year and the only natural talent beyond the norm is the distance i hit the ball. I have no idea why I can swing the club fast but I can. I boxed for years so I wonder if that is partly it. It sounds bizarre but boxing is a sport which is all about rotating the body to harness power.
Anyway (shameless brag) I hit a 7 iron 190 yards carry fairly regularly. I hit the 5 iron 220, 230 yards. I have hot a hybrid 250 or so fairly often. However it is very inconsistent. I beleive that it isnt just about club head speed and impact conditions. I definitely believe weight transference has a large effect too.
		
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Hitting the ball a long way in golf is not a bad thing but your inconsistency probably stems from that, it's also likely that at the wedge end of of your bag  you'll struggle with club selection as you could possibly hitting the pitching wedge, say 140 etc and you'll therefore be playing many more less than full shots than most golfers  and, I reckon, that part shots are the difficult ones. 

On a decent strike and a full swing I hit a 7 iron carry 155 and roll out to 162 which, with the same full swing, allows my 56 degree wedge to carry 75 yards with very little roll out but if you have to start hitting all your wedges with part swings then consistency becomes an issue imo


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## stefanovic (Jul 6, 2019)

Very impressive distances mentioned here, like hitting a 7 iron 160 - 190 yards. That's a wood for me. 
Wasn't there some debate once about power without effort?
A couple of years ago a young lad asked me if he could try hitting my driver. Putting everything he had into it he managed only about 100 yards. 
The only time I can remember driving a par 4 (330 yards downhill) I remember the sensation of finding power without effort.
So it might be partly to do with how relaxed you are and gripping the club lightly would be a good start.


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## Dibby (Jul 6, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Very impressive distances mentioned here, like hitting a 7 iron 160 - 190 yards. That's a wood for me.
Wasn't there some debate once about power without effort?
A couple of years ago a young lad asked me if he could try hitting my driver. Putting everything he had into it he managed only about 100 yards.
The only time I can remember driving a par 4 (330 yards downhill) I remember the sensation of finding power without effort.
So it might be partly to do with how relaxed you are and gripping the club lightly would be a good start.
		
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Apparent effortlessness is not caused by a lack of effort, it's caused by effort being well coordinated and working in the same direction, instead of fighting against yourself. Tension is caused by opposing muscles being tense, if only one side of a joint is tense and the other is relaxed, you have a large force being exerted. This is more apparent if you look outside of golf. See the below example:






How much effort did it look like he put in? That's a 77kg (12st 1lb) man lifting 165kg (4oz shy of 26st), most people can't even pick that up off the floor to waist high. He is putting in an incredible amount of effort, but because his timing and coordination is good, it looks effortless.


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## stefanovic (Jul 6, 2019)

Not sure if power lifting equates to power golf.
I know Homer Kelly studied a lot of swings for his book The Golfing Machine, and none of them look like those of the average golfer who struggles to hit further than 200 yards.
Here might be some clues about swing dynamics, which I've heard mentioned elsewhere.

https://www.thediygolfer.com/power-accumulators/


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## Dibby (Jul 6, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not sure if power lifting equates to power golf.
I know Homer Kelly studied a lot of swings for his book The Golfing Machine, and none of them look like those of the average golfer who struggles to hit further than 200 yards.
Here might be some clues about swing dynamics, which I've heard mentioned elsewhere.

https://www.thediygolfer.com/power-accumulators/

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For some reason golfers struggle to accept sports science, despite loving the science of golf clubs, balls and all the rest of the kit out there.

Weightlifting, throwing (shot putt, discuss etc..), and golf are all related in how power is developed, it is just used for different end results, weightlifting moves a big weight a small distance, throwing moves a moderate weight a moderate distance, and golf moves a small weight a long distance. Golf fools people, because the lightness of the club and the ball, but it doesn't fool physics which tell us that to accelerate an object more than we currently can, we either need to decrease the mass of that object or increase the force we apply.

Good golf swings appear effortless, because the golfers mechanics are good, so they can then apply more force. bad golfers don't hit the ball further when they use more force, because their mechanics are not good, therefore applying more force just means more force is needed and less time is available to make the compensating move.

Once you have the mechanics to hit the middle of the clubface with a decent path, you'll hit it further by applying more force, not constantly changing your swing mechanics looking for the secret.

You will also hit a limit, there is a reason you will never run as fast as Usain Bolt, lift as much a Lu (in the video) or Jump as far as Greg Rutherford, even if you somehow had the same mechanics and training history, it's because you have the wrong parents. Again golf is strange that in other sports people seem easier to accept that the elites have a genetic advantage, it's easier to understand why a Samoan giant would be better at rugby, but because top golfers look like normal people, they are not given the credit for the athleticism that they have.


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## Sairamtim (Jul 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Hitting the ball a long way in golf is not a bad thing but your inconsistency probably stems from that, it's also likely that at the wedge end of of your bag  you'll struggle with club selection as you could possibly hitting the pitching wedge, say 140 etc and you'll therefore be playing many more less than full shots than most golfers  and, I reckon, that part shots are the difficult ones.

On a decent strike and a full swing I hit a 7 iron carry 155 and roll out to 162 which, with the same full swing, allows my 56 degree wedge to carry 75 yards with very little roll out but if you have to start hitting all your wedges with part swings then consistency becomes an issue imo
		
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Thatâ€™s all very perceptive actually and something I struggle with a little. Just bought two more wedges so will have 4 to work with. 
My local range has just fitted top tracer so hopefully get my yardages nailed.


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## stefanovic (Jul 7, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Good golf swings appear effortless, because the golfers mechanics are good, so they can then apply more force. bad golfers don't hit the ball further when they use more force, because their mechanics are not good, therefore applying more force just means more force is needed and less time is available to make the compensating move.
		
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That's the classical theory of mechanics. However it does not take into account the quantum theory of consciousness. This is where the brain which runs off electricity is communicating with different body members. An older person with an older brain takes longer to communicate with the bones and muscles which act like levers to keep the body upright and swing a golf club back and forth. 
If you have not mastered the swing by about the age of 25, after which the mind and body starts to age, then quite frankly you have no chance of being a top class golfer.
This does seem to prove that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.


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## williamalex1 (Jul 7, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.
		
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Bob could you possibly post a video of this wrist exercise please , i'm badly in need of an extra 30-50 yards


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## Dibby (Jul 7, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's the classical theory of mechanics. However it does not take into account the quantum theory of consciousness. This is where the brain which runs off electricity is communicating with different body members. An older person with an older brain takes longer to communicate with the bones and muscles which act like levers to keep the body upright and swing a golf club back and forth.
If you have not mastered the swing by about the age of 25, after which the mind and body starts to age, then quite frankly you have no chance of being a top class golfer.
This does seem to prove that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
		
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Not sure what this has to do with where power is generated from.

Also, what do you define as top class? If you mean touring pro level then yes, if you mean the ability to knock it round a normal club course in par, I disagree.

If you want to believe something is impossible, it will be impossible, even if it is not.

If you really think all this stuff about the golf swing, I cannot imagine how you even hit a ball. Humans learn by solving problems, give a kid a golf club, and if they keep up playing, they end up hitting it long and straight because they have this as a goal, and eventually figure it out by trying all different things. They don't get good because they calculate the physics of the golf swing, the degrees of bend each joint must have, the percentage of activation of each muscle or quantum mechanics or anything else. Look at how babies learn things like walking, they just keep trying things until they achieve their goal of getting somewhere upright. Generally, adults massively overcomplicate motor skill learning and it sets them back hugely. That's not to say mechanical coaching is useless, but it's the icing on the cake for people that already have decent movement patterns, it's not the batter that makes the cake itself. No doubt ageing slows the process of learning, but most learning limitations in adults are behavioural, not biological.


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Bob could you possibly post a video of this wrist exercise please , i'm badly in need of an extra 30-50 yards 

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I don't have a video of that drill as I thought it was pretty self explanatory.
If you want to post a video of your swing, I'll have a look and see if you're losing power somewhere else


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## DRW (Jul 8, 2019)

After doing speed training a few years ago, I would state the obvious, by swinging faster.....I picked up 10mph easily but took about a year to get my dispersion back with no swing changes. If felt mentally quick to start with and I was off balance, terrible but over time I got used to the extra speed and it now feels normal speed.. Now if I could release the extra 10mph I have on my practise swings but it just feels to much out of control,....

Many people(myself included) do not swing to your capacity and you get used to swinging the slow/fast you currently do, when your potential is far faster by a little training/practise and sticking with it.

The rest is natural ability and technique, of those two I have neither


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## williamalex1 (Jul 8, 2019)

bobmac said:



			I don't have a video of that drill as I thought it was pretty self explanatory.
If you want to post a video of your swing, I'll have a look and see if you're losing power somewhere else
		
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Cheers Bob, but i wouldn't like to post my swing or lack of, on here.  But I'll try and get a video made and send it to you in a PM.
 I'm probably too old a dog for new tricks 
thanks again .


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## njt1986 (Jul 11, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			As I'm a bit dazed of reading all the conflicting information on this I'm just wondering if any of the advice ever worked for you?
Grip, body turn, club lag, distance through resistance, shoulder and hip turn, going to the gym.
I tried all these and the end result was I still couldn't hit the ball > 200 yards.
Sorry if I sound frustrated but did I miss something?
I think it's only down to natural ability.
		
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To simplify things a little, it works as part of a system from the ground up, with everything moving in sequence.

Iâ€™m not a great golfer but I do have natural power. Iâ€™m not a particularly big bloke, 5ft 11â€, nor am I particularly flexible, and Iâ€™m not particularly strong either. What I have done for years before taking up golf though, was play cricket from age 9-18, then took up boxing for about 6 years. All of which require both timing/rhythm and to chain a sequence from the ground up.

Throwing a punch stood still, from the the shoulders only will generate maybe half the power - if youâ€™re lucky - than planting your lead foot, turning/driving up from your back foot, up through your hips, back and only then your shoulders come into play - when youâ€™ve already built up the speed from the ground up. 

Not sure if that will do anything for accuracy as to be honest my accuracy is pants! But applying that same ground-up principle should help a little. Youâ€™ll need to transfer weight towards your back foot on the backswing, while maximising your rotation to try and have your back facing the target, then rotate through. 

Plenty of videos online of slow-motion of the biggest hitters on tour, you can easily see how the sequence works, itâ€™s another matter entirely to put that into practice and get the timing of it all. 

As others have said, time at the range, working alongside a pro and time in the gym will all help - as well as having the correct clubs. I believe Dustin Johnson and Brooks Koepka have said all the power comes from their legs


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## Dan2501 (Jul 11, 2019)

__
		http://instagr.am/p/BzwpBpsgdt2/


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## GG26 (Jul 11, 2019)

In my last lesson the pro explained to me that the power comes from the backswing.


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## stefanovic (Jul 12, 2019)

Contradictions.
All the power comes from the legs (#36) but it also comes from the backswing (#38).
If your chicken legs cost you yardage, go and have a word with a gym instructor then put it to the test.
Think it will make any difference?


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## Dibby (Jul 12, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Contradictions.
All the power comes from the legs (#36) but it also comes from the backswing (#38).
If your chicken legs cost you yardage, go and have a word with a gym instructor then put it to the test.
Think it will make any difference?
		
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I didn't make either of those posts, but a couple of questions for you:

1. Do your legs do anything on the backswing?
2. Is it possible that there can be multiple sources of power?
3. Chicken legs can cost yardage, but most likely missing the centre of the face will cost more. However, if someone beefs up their legs, but neglects the rest of their body and\or misses the centre of the face, stronger legs will likely make no difference. If you're Phil Mickelson and can already find the centre of the club, strength and speed work will make a big difference as witnessed by his clubhead speed being about 120mph this year, a jump of about 6mph from last year.
4. What are you personally trying to achieve?


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## stefanovic (Jul 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Do your legs do anything on the backswing?
		
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Legs are just levers to keep you upright to walk, and so that you can look out for predators (and hit golf balls).
For me, they merely respond to the weight shift from the upper body.



			Is it possible that there can be multiple sources of power?
		
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A sequence of power accumulators sounds like a good idea, but can anyone explain the actual sequence?



			If you're Phil Mickelson and can already find the centre of the club, strength and speed work will make a big difference as witnessed by his clubhead speed being about 120mph this year, a jump of about 6mph from last year.
		
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Wish I was, and could.



			What are you personally trying to achieve?
		
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I have only been able to attempt the swing again recently after a nagging left arm injury which seemed to have finished my golf days. A Tai Chi move appears to have helped, but I'll see and can now play 9 holes. I feel like a beginner again and hope for a bit of advice that might get me over 200 yards with the driver. At the moment I hit about 170 yards in average conditions.


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## Dibby (Jul 12, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Legs are just levers to keep you upright to walk, and so that you can look out for predators (and hit golf balls).
For me, they merely respond to the weight shift from the upper body.

A sequence of power accumulators sounds like a good idea, but can anyone explain the actual sequence?

Wish I was, and could.

I have only been able to attempt the swing again recently after a nagging left arm injury which seemed to have finished my golf days. A Tai Chi move appears to have helped, but I'll see and can now play 9 holes. I feel like a beginner again and hope for a bit of advice that might get me over 200 yards with the driver. At the moment I hit about 170 yards in average conditions.
		
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Ok, so bare with me, this is going somewhere.

Imagine a golfer is placed into space (forget the biological needs such as to breathe) he is positioned and released so that he is stationary. The same is done for a golf ball in the perfect address position. What happens when the golfer tries to swing and hit the ball?


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## stefanovic (Jul 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Imagine a golfer is placed into space (forget the biological needs such as to breathe) he is positioned and released so that he is stationary. The same is done for a golf ball in the perfect address position. What happens when the golfer tries to swing and hit the ball?
		
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In 'zero gravity', I don't know. Shepard hit a golf ball on the moon and it went only 200 - 400 yards.

On another point re the legs. Seve used to hit balls while kneeling to prove it wasn't all in the legs. He managed 240 yards.


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## Dibby (Jul 12, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			In 'zero gravity', I don't know. Shepard hit a golf ball on the moon and it went only 200 - 400 yards.

On another point re the legs. Seve used to hit balls while kneeling to prove it wasn't all in the legs. He managed 240 yards.
		
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In space the golfer will go backwards, and the ball will go forwards. Action and reaction.  I thought you'd appreciate the science of that.

Back on earth, the golfer doesn't go backwards, because he pushes against the ground to transfer more energy to the ball. Hitting from the knees still uses ground forces, so I guess technically legs should be ground, just that for a normal swing our legs via our feet are how we generate ground forces.

If you want understand eliminating ground forces, I don't recommend it, but you can try hitting a ball whilst standing (or kneeling) on a sheet of ice, or some other frictionless surface, even kneeling on a wheely chair whilst trying to swing would prove this point.


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## stefanovic (Jul 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			In space the golfer will go backwards, and the ball will go forwards. Action and reaction.  I thought you'd appreciate the science of that.
		
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An astronaut did try hitting a golf ball on a spacewalk, but in the video it's not clear if he did go backwards. His bones and muscles probably absorbed most of the recoil.
On land the recoil between the ball and club head will mostly be absorbed by the feet and legs, but in a player with poor balance he could fall slightly back. I've seen plenty of players fall slightly backwards after hitting the ball.
In space you do not need balance. Apart from Newton's Third Law you also have Newton's First Law which is Inertia, which nobody understands.
I think you are confusing a Velikovsky ('Worlds in Collision') type moment when a large object collides with another large object producing a shift in momentum and position with a small interaction between a ball and a golf club.

Some real science here:


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## Dibby (Jul 13, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			An astronaut did try hitting a golf ball on a spacewalk, but in the video it's not clear if he did go backwards. His bones and muscles probably absorbed most of the recoil.
On land the recoil between the ball and club head will mostly be absorbed by the feet and legs, but in a player with poor balance he could fall slightly back. I've seen plenty of players fall slightly backwards after hitting the ball.
In space you do not need balance. Apart from Newton's Third Law you also have Newton's First Law which is Inertia, which nobody understands.
I think you are confusing a Velikovsky ('Worlds in Collision') type moment when a large object collides with another large object producing a shift in momentum and position with a small interaction between a ball and a golf club.

Some real science here:






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Whatever an astronaut has done is in reality is irrelevant, as to match the described theoretical scenario, both ball and astronaut would have to be perfectly stationary prior to starting the experiment, and not have any external forces acting on them, such as the astronauts movement system and tether to the spacecraft, plus in practice one or both objects will already be moving.

Not sure what you mean by real science, that's exactly the same principle that I described, just without theoretical numbers added to it, and taken further to go beyond just club and ball but to include golfer and ground. The difference is on earth, the club is connected to the golfer who is connected to the ground, in space the golfer is connected to nothing, so the club creates a force on the ball, the ball creates a force on the club, the club creates a force on the golfer and the golfer moves. On Earth, the same happens except the force interaction between the golfer and ground means the golfer stays in the same location and more of the energy from the impact goes into the ball. Fallin backwards or balance has nothing to do with it.

Inertia is fully understood, a body at motion or rest will want to stay in that state, unless an external force acts on it.

I have to question, are you really trying to learn how to hit the ball further? You quote lots of random unrelated scientific principles without a full understanding of them, get caught up in irrelevancies, and disagree with everything anyone else has said. Whilst you have to question things to learn, your line of questioning is tangential at best. If you really do what to hit the ball further, my advice is to just get out there and swing a club, forget the science, both the actual and pseudo varieties.


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## stefanovic (Jul 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Inertia is fully understood, a body at motion or rest will want to stay in that state, unless an external force acts on it.
		
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There's more to it than that. As Richard Feynman stated 'The Law of Inertia has no known origin'.
When you hit a golf ball or even pick a flower you influence the furthest star. That also goes for the number 48 bus. So everything has external forces acting on them. That's the way the universe is and we need to know an awful lot more. An understanding of dark energy and dark matter is at least required. 




			I have to question, are you really trying to learn how to hit the ball further? You quote lots of random unrelated scientific principles without a full understanding of them, get caught up in irrelevancies, and disagree with everything anyone else has said. Whilst you have to question things to learn, your line of questioning is tangential at best. If you really do what to hit the ball further, my advice is to just get out there and swing a club, forget the science, both the actual and pseudo varieties.
		
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I have tried all parts of the anatomy to find power after having played golf for over 30 years. I have tried all the advice ever given to me, such as the left shoulder, the right hand, the wrists, the arms, the legs, the back, the buttocks, weight transfer, and so on. 
I still cannot hit far. My average drive cannot be more than 170 yards. A sand wedge I cannot hit more than 40 yards. Yet I have played with folk who can hit the driver 250 yards and the sand iron 100 yards. I don't try to swing fast or slow. My grip is the standard Vardon overlap which I've had checked several times. My body is supple - I can do 200 yoga postures. I can do 20 push-ups easily.
I once had a handicap of 10 which was a bit flattering, but for me the power is still a mystery. Maybe I simply don't have any. I'm not a big guy. My BMI is measured at 22 and percentage body fat is 17.


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## Dibby (Jul 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			There's more to it than that. As Richard Feynman stated 'The Law of Inertia has no known origin'.
When you hit a golf ball or even pick a flower you influence the furthest star. That also goes for the number 48 bus. So everything has external forces acting on them. That's the way the universe is and we need to know an awful lot more. An understanding of dark energy and dark matter is at least required.


I have tried all parts of the anatomy to find power after having played golf for over 30 years. I have tried all the advice ever given to me, such as the left shoulder, the right hand, the wrists, the arms, the legs, the back, the buttocks, weight transfer, and so on.
I still cannot hit far. My average drive cannot be more than 170 yards. A sand wedge I cannot hit more than 40 yards. Yet I have played with folk who can hit the driver 250 yards and the sand iron 100 yards. I don't try to swing fast or slow. My grip is the standard Vardon overlap which I've had checked several times. My body is supple - I can do 200 yoga postures. I can do 20 push-ups easily.
I once had a handicap of 10 which was a bit flattering, but for me the power is still a mystery. Maybe I simply don't have any. I'm not a big guy. My BMI is measured at 22 and percentage body fat is 17.
		
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So, how or why does not knowing the origin of inertia have any impact on how inertia relates to the golf swing? The fact we know what inertia does is enough, we don't need to know it's origin for any application whatsoever with golf. That's at best an irrelevance and at worst a distraction from something actually productive.

Perhaps you have the wrong parents? Although to be honest, whilst not everyone is destined to be a power hitter, I find it hard to believe most people without a disability could not at least hit it 200 yards with a driver.

As per my previous post, my advice is to just go out there and do it. You say you don't swing the club fast, the ball is not going to go far if you don't swing the club fast! Just go out there and rip it, and then work on controlling the speed.

If you want any more detailed specifics, I advise you to see a golf pro or strength and conditioning pro, as it's impossible to give specific advice without assessing your current state.


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## stefanovic (Jul 16, 2019)

A few years ago I went into a famous golf store to enquire about a better driver. They gave me three to try on the simulator and told me my driving distance was only 165 yards. To their annoyance I declined to buy.
I remember the big hitting Fred Couples saying if you try and hit it hard it never works. He accumulated energy with the double wrist cock, or whatever it was.
So I think it's more to do with conservation of energy during the swing. The high handicapper releases energy too quickly and the result is always disappointing.
I'm going to go with a rhythmic swing and a wider arc to try and build a bit of extra distance.


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## Dibby (Jul 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			A few years ago I went into a famous golf store to enquire about a better driver. They gave me three to try on the simulator and told me my driving distance was only 165 yards. To their annoyance I declined to buy.
I remember the big hitting Fred Couples saying if you try and hit it hard it never works. He accumulated energy with the double wrist cock, or whatever it was.
So I think it's more to do with conservation of energy during the swing. The high handicapper releases energy too quickly and the result is always disappointing.
I'm going to go with a rhythmic swing and a wider arc to try and build a bit of extra distance.
		
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Feel and real, when most people hit it hard they get out of sequence, it's not the force that makes the swing bad, it's that people change the swing to try and add more force.

It's true that worse players reach peak swing speed sooner than pros, but that peak swing speed is generally lower than the pros peak swing speed.


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## Roops (Jul 17, 2019)

Seem to remember seeing a vid where it was determined that it's 85% arms, 15% the rest of the body. Interestingly Erik Van Rooyen on the Open Zone last night was saying that when he wants to hit it further, he doesn't try and hit it hard from the top. The real acceleration is at the bottom of the arc and there was no mention of coiling the torso or the legs generating power etc etc.


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## bobmac (Jul 17, 2019)

If anyone wants to compare their swing with Brooks Koepka , check where your shaft is at this point with the arms just below horizontal


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## Dibby (Jul 17, 2019)

Roops said:



			Seem to remember seeing a vid where it was determined that it's 85% arms, 15% the rest of the body. Interestingly Erik Van Rooyen on the Open Zone last night was saying that when he wants to hit it further, he doesn't try and hit it hard from the top. The real acceleration is at the bottom of the arc and there was no mention of coiling the torso or the legs generating power etc etc.
		
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I wouldn't disagree with that. Most people can swing their arms quite fast, for arguments sake let's say 95mph. fewer people can coordinate that 95mph arm swing so that it happens in perfect synchronisation with their 19mph hip turn. Thats the difference between those who have a swing speed of 95mph vs 114mph, or about 50 yards of distance off the driver.  Massively simplified, but you see the point?

Most people are already maxed out on the speed they can swing their arms, so trying to add the final 1% to this motion is less productive than working on the areas that are nowhere near the maximum.


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## stefanovic (Jul 17, 2019)

I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution. 
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough. 
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2019)

For me it's _Connectivity_.  When I lose connectivity my swing and distance go to pot.


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## Dibby (Jul 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. *Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.*
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.
		
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Actually, the strokes gained stat tells us the opposite. This is why bomb and gouge is so popular on tour, from a scoring outcome, statistically, it is better to be closer to the hole and with a worse lie than it is to be short in the fairway.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.
		
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But....the answers you are getting and the points being made relate to the question you asked to start this thread.

I don't think you  would have appreciated your second paragraph as an early response to the question you posed.


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## pendodave (Jul 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.
		
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Luckily, millions of years of evolution means its pretty difficult to hurt yourself.  If it was, we'd have been extinct for quite a long while by now...


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