# Handicap Divisions



## NearHull (Jan 1, 2021)

I am helping to rewrite our Terms of Competition.  Within the document there is a reference to Handicap Divisions.  I am aware of the WHS impact to handicaps and the demise of divisions for handicap purposes but we will continue to use Divisions to award  prizes and also to set a handicap terms for one particular competition.  
I have searched the EG and County websites with for any advice as to setting which HI values to use for three divisions but I haven’t found anything concrete. I could use the old Handicap break points and extrapolate back to a HI and perhaps round up/down, but I do wish to try to align with others.  Using CH for each tee also seems a bit clunky.
Any advice please.


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## Imurg (Jan 1, 2021)

How many divisions are you looking to have..?
Previous clubs have gone Up to 11, 12 to 20 and 21 up
Current club just has 2 and seems to split at 16.


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## NearHull (Jan 1, 2021)

Imurg said:



			How many divisions are you looking to have..?
Previous clubs have gone Up to 11, 12 to 20 and 21 up
Current club just has 2 and seems to split at 16.
		
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I think, as in the pre-WHS days, we would want three but I have known them to go to two if the entry numbers are low. I believe we used your suggested numbers for the splits.


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## 2blue (Jan 1, 2021)

We have 2 Divs though the cut-off is different for Seniors, mid-week Comp & weekends in order to try & get an even split. Less than 25 entries overall or less than 12 in a Div then we go to just 1 Div. I don't think there is any right way for this, really.


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## rulefan (Jan 1, 2021)

There are probably as may split division points as there are clubs. I have never seen a standard published.
However, I suggest you look at your comp entries over the last few years and make the divisions proportionally match the number of entrants. eg 3 Divisions split 33% according to handicaps and prizes to match.

We have a running sore in my club. The pro runs the sweep and insists on setting his rules. The divisions are something like <8, 8-12, >12. The entrant are approx 15%, 30% & 55% but prize money is 33/33/33%. The pro's justification is that 'winning the 1st division is more difficult and more prestigious than the 3rd division so the winner deserves more'


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## rosecott (Jan 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			There are probably as may split division points as there are clubs. I have never seen a standard published.
However, I suggest you look at your comp entries over the last few years and make the divisions proportionally match the number of entrants. eg 3 Divisions split 33% according to handicaps and prizes to match.

We have a running sore in my club. The pro runs the sweep and insists on setting his rules. The divisions are something like <8, 8-12, >12. The entrant are approx 15%, 30% & 55% but prize money is 33/33/33%. The pro's justification is that 'winning the 1st division is more difficult and more prestigious than the 3rd division so the winner deserves more'
		
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Who allowed the Pro to dictate in such a way? Does your committee not make decisions?


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## rulefan (Jan 1, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Who allowed the Pro to dictate in such a way? Does your committee not make decisions?
		
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The pro does most of the day to day management of competitions (not handicapping) and one of his perks (ie part of his remuneration package) is the optional sweep & 2s club which has to be spent in the pro shop. The club has no interest in divisions for club prizes/trophies etc


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## fundy (Jan 1, 2021)

Imurg said:



			How many divisions are you looking to have..?
Previous clubs have gone Up to 11, 12 to 20 and 21 up
Current club just has 2 and seems to split at 16.
		
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At my last club we reviewed the splits at the end of each year based on the previous years comps to try and ensure over the year we had roughly the same number of runners in each division. the first time we did it led to some big moves and after that it was tweeked by 1 at most each year. Think when I left it was upto 9, 10-14, 15+ which represented best the split of the members who played regularly in comps


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## jim8flog (Jan 1, 2021)

Our club handicap divisions are movable and are roughly set so that in any competition the numbers are roughly the same in each division
We have 3 in a full field event and 2 when there are about 30 and just one for small fields

The guidelines we use are 10 or better, 11-16, 17 and above.

The senior section, which generally are full field events, set their own divisions
17 or better, 18-20, 21 and above

We IG as our ISV and it is very easy to adjust a comp based upon the numbers.


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## NearHull (Jan 1, 2021)

I’m also interested in whether you will use HI as the measure and if so, will you extrapolate from the  old handicap and round up or down or leave it as a decimal point.


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## rulefan (Jan 1, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m also interested in whether you will use HI as the measure and if so, will you extrapolate from the  old handicap and round up or down or leave it as a decimal point.
		
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Surely HI is the better option than CH or PH. It will then be consistent for all tees.


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## 2blue (Jan 2, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m also interested in whether you will use HI as the measure and if so, will you extrapolate from the  old handicap and round up or down or leave it as a decimal point.
		
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If using V1 the Comp reports/results print out using Playing H/cap. So do you then reprocessing to get HI Divs ??


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

Day to day comps we would go for an even split other times we would do up to 19 up to 30 and then the rest.


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## NearHull (Jan 2, 2021)

2blue said:



			If using V1 the Comp reports/results print out using Playing H/cap. So do you then reprocessing to get HI Divs ??
		
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I don’t know, I’m just taking up the post, but I can now ask the Pro an intelligent question.


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## 2blue (Jan 2, 2021)

rulefan said:



*We have a running sore in my club.* The pro runs the sweep and insists on setting his rules. The divisions are something like <8, 8-12, >12.* The entrant are approx 15%, 30% & 55% but prize money is 33/33/33%*. The pro's justification is that 'winning the 1st division is more difficult and more prestigious than the 3rd division so the winner deserves more'
		
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rulefan said:



			The pro does most of the day to day management of competitions (not handicapping) and one of his perks (ie* part of his remuneration package*) is the optional sweep & 2s club which has to be spent in the pro shop. The club has no interest in divisions for club prizes/trophies etc
		
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Is the remuneration package the 'old style' of paying Pros?
I'm amazed he gets away with the 33% payout regardless of the number of people players are competing with.


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## jim8flog (Jan 2, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m also interested in whether you will use HI as the measure and if so, will you extrapolate from the  old handicap and round up or down or leave it as a decimal point.
		
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 As we adjust divisions according the number of players not particularly relevant. 

 However having done a quick check (cards are done by the manager) I would say we are are using Course Handicap. All players Course Handicaps are shown in the results and not there H.I..


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## rulefan (Jan 2, 2021)

2blue said:



			Is the remuneration package the 'old style' of paying Pros?
I'm amazed he gets away with the 33% payout regardless of the number of people players are competing with.
		
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The pro is paid a salary for providing his services including the shop, coaching, managing competitions (ie entry, card/score returns, PSI advice). He gets the profits from the shop and coaching and gets a small commission for managing competitions.
The sweep and 2s are under his own initiative and are financially separate from competition entry fees. Neither the General Committee not the H&C Committee have any control over those optional fees and prizes. The prize monies for both are distributed to the players in full.
Members are aware of the disparity between entries and sweep allocation but have indicated they have no wish to change even though it has been raised at AGMs over the years.


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## NearHull (Jan 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			As we adjust divisions according the number of players not particularly relevant.

However having done a quick check (cards are done by the manager) I would say we are are using Course Handicap. All players Course Handicaps are shown in the results and not there H.I..
		
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I may be getting my knickers in a twist over nothing here, but I was thinking that players tend to think of themselves as in a particular division. In one of our Alliances a player enters according to their division and divisional competitions can be on differing days.  Hence I was trying to find some sort of common ground.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I may be getting my knickers in a twist over nothing here, but I was thinking that players tend to think of themselves as in a particular division. In one of our Alliances a player enters according to their division and divisional competitions can be on differing days.  Hence I was trying to find some sort of common ground.
		
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In the end you adopt what system for divs best suits your club. As to who goes in what div we will stick to HC Index as it’s what is used by all the clubs I’m involved with for setting limits for comps.


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## 2blue (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			In the end you adopt what system for divs best suits your club. As to who goes in what div we will stick to HC Index as it’s what is used by all the clubs I’m involved with *for setting limits for comps*.
		
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Ah yes.... HI for this but will it work for Divs if you use V1 which prints Comp Results using CH?


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## rulefan (Jan 3, 2021)

2blue said:



			Ah yes.... HI for this but will it work for Divs if you use V1 which prints Comp Results using CH?
		
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Is there no option?


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## 2blue (Jan 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Is there no option?
		
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Haven't seen one


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## jim8flog (Jan 3, 2021)

2blue said:



			Ah yes.... HI for this but will it work for Divs if you use V1 which prints Comp Results using CH?
		
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 As does IG

Not being responsible for results I too do not know if there is an option but CH is an easy thing for all to understand and as all the numbers are round figures it makes it easy to see where the division breaks were when the results are published.


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## IanMcC (Jan 3, 2021)

CSI Divisional print offs are based on Playing Handicap.
For info, we have 2 divisions. 14 and lower, and 15 and above. Looking back briefly on our summer comps, this is quite an equal split.


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## rosecott (Jan 3, 2021)

2blue said:



			Ah yes.... HI for this but will it work for Divs if you use V1 which prints Comp Results using CH?
		
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That seems a bit strange to me. I would have thought that comp results would be based on Playing Handicap - otherwise, what's the point of the 95%?

Or am I completely missing the point?


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

2blue said:



			Ah yes.... HI for this but will it work for Divs if you use V1 which prints Comp Results using CH?
		
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Interesting questio. Not had a Q yet but I hope that results will, and should, still sort the winners as per the HI even though the CH will show on the results.


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## jim8flog (Jan 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			That seems a bit strange to me. I would have thought that comp results would be based on Playing Handicap - otherwise, what's the point of the 95%?

Or am I completely missing the point?
		
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 Comp results *are* decided by Playing Handicap.

The thread is mainly about how to set divisions 
Options
H.I.
CH
or 
PH


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Comp results *are* decided by Playing Handicap.

The thread is mainly about how to set divisions
Options
H.I.
CH
or
PH
		
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In the end, PH is ultimately coming from what a persons HI is which gives the CH (I do love these abbreviations) - (why such a long word when it donates a shortening)


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## IanMcC (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting questio. Not had a Q yet but I hope that results will, and should, still sort the winners as per the HI even though the CH will show on the results.
		
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I looked back to a comp in early November to check. One chap has a HI of 13.1, giving him a Course handicap of 15, and a Playing Handicap of 14. He was shown as Division 1 in the ClubV1 print off. Another guy has a HI of 14.2 giving him a Course handicap of 16 and a playing handicap of 15. he was in division 2. So it allocates division by Playing Handicap. Hope this helps.


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## rulefan (Jan 3, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I looked back to a comp in early November to check. One chap has a HI of 13.1, giving him a Course handicap of 15, and a Playing Handicap of 14. He was shown as Division 1 in the ClubV1 print off. Another guy has a HI of 14.2 giving him a Course handicap of 16 and a playing handicap of 15. he was in division 2. So it allocates division by Playing Handicap. Hope this helps.
		
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I can see why V1 might thing it logical as PH is intended for competition results. However it is becoming ever more likely that the convention of handicap limits for entry will be based on HI. (As recommended by CONGU). I'm sure it would (should) only be a minor change for V1 to make to provide the option in the software.

It would be interesting to know what IG and HM do.


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## rosecott (Jan 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Comp results *are* decided by Playing Handicap.

The thread is mainly about how to set divisions
Options
H.I.
CH
or
PH
		
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I don't need telling that comp results *are* decided by Playing Handicap - I mentioned that because Dave said V1 prints comp results using CH, which I found a bit strange. I also don't need telling what I should or should not comment on.


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## jim8flog (Jan 4, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I don't need telling that comp results *are* decided by Playing Handicap - I mentioned that because Dave said V1 prints comp results using CH, which I found a bit strange. I also don't need telling what I should or should not comment on.
		
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 Then for clarity

Both Dave and I said the results are printed out showing CH neither of us said it printed out the results *order* using CH.


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## rosecott (Jan 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Then for clarity

Both Dave and I said the results are printed out showing CH neither of us said it printed out the results *order* using CH.
		
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That is more the kind of response I was looking for.


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## NearHull (Jan 5, 2021)

As posters are providing information, I’m finding that the division definitions are becoming more cloudy.


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