# My swing thoughts - by James



## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

*1) Hip slide*

We've often heard "turn don't slide" and relate that to being a bad thing. The thing is that relates to the BACKSWING and not the downswing. You don't want to slide your lower body away from the ball on the backswing, only towards the target on the way down.

Transfering the weight to the left during TRANSITION or 'sliding' allows the club to drop down onto the same plane (or close) to the right forearm and assists your swingpath the approach the ball from the inside rather than the outside. It also moves the point that your club will hit the ground forwards so you are less likely to hit the ground before the ball.

It also stops the right heel flipping out (it rolls onto it's side a little more), set the hips and allows you to hit DOWN aggressively into the ball.

Video...

[video=youtube;Slyu5noOUjA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slyu5noOUjA[/video]


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

*1) Hip slide, cont..*

Here's a picture of a player who has the clubshaft BETWEEN his arms on the way down, this is taking the club to the OUTSIDE of the ball. He needed to employ some weightshift of his lower body to the left so that he drops the club closer to his right forearm plane on the downswing as per Hunter Mahan (on the right of the picture).

[click picture to enlarge..]





A drill to help with this feeling of not coming over the top is as follows...

[video=youtube;Cq2ANLxN79E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=Cq2ANLxN79E[/video]

and this drill can be enhanced with the idea of holding a pencil in your right hand and literally scratching a line right across the back of the chair so your right wrist remains 'cocked', you can't do it if your right wrist breaks down, or 'flips' as you'll then STAB the chair!. Don't stand too far away from the chair - that's CHEATING.

(Disclaimer: OK, you might not want to try that on your best furniture!).


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## chrisd (Dec 20, 2012)

The move in the 1st video is so vital but there are pro's out there who still dont teach it??   I don't get that its not taught at the very beginning of the downswing lesson to every newbie golfer - or is there money to be earned later in correcting the ingrained over the top swing?

Good video James - nice and simple


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 20, 2012)

That's good stuff James, it's the move I'm working on now as I'm a world renowned 'over the topper'.


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2012)

From 10-30 seconds on the first video. That's me that is.


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## DelB (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne in useful post shock!! 

Only joshing Chief! Nice one!  :thup:

:clap:


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## MadAdey (Dec 20, 2012)

Really enjoyed that video James. Great legs,  nice hips, great movement and those black trousers make her ass look great....


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

*1) Hip slide, cont..*

So what happens when you don't hip slide?

Well we've established that it sets the club onto the correct plane else the club will get outside the ball but it also makes the shaft plane too steep, using the picture above we can see that the club golfer has the shaft coming down much more vertically than Hunter Mahan (on the right of the pic)...

[click pic to enlarge...]




... and this has consequences.

If the club is coming down too steep it's either going to stick straight into the ground (taking some major divots) OR you're going to have to shallow out that steepness.... basically an extra move that you don't need as it just builds complexity and inconsistency into your swing. Possible ways to shallow the club include:

1) Flipping the clubhead which causes fat/thin shots as well as pulls, pull-hooks and weak slices if the path is THAT bad.
2) Dropping the right shoulder backwards or not rotating properly, which causes blocks, hooks and fat shots.
3) Early extension (or 'standing up' prior to hitting the ball) which will rob you of that precious swing speed and lead to inconsistent striking

None of these 3 things are something that you'd encourage in your swing... and a hip slide to set the club (as per the first video) will *help* prevent all of them.

That concludes my thoughts on hip slide.


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2012)

I agree


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## Jimbooo (Dec 20, 2012)

so does the head also move forwards (toward the target) on the downswing?


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

Jimbooo said:



			so does the head also move forwards (toward the target) on the downswing?
		
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Ideally it's a HIP slide not a HEAD slide, it sets the club plane and shallows the descent angle so it's not too steep :thup: That said it doesn't matter if your head moves forward a *BIT*, many tour standard players move their head towards the target a little in transition.. if you take a look at the first *45 seconds* of this video you can see that Robert Rock's head moves both forwards and down (easy to see if you watch the tree trunk to the top right of his head) 

[video=youtube;wl2ryXDxJYg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl2ryXDxJYg[/video]



			
				Bobmac said:
			
		


			I agree
		
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Thank you.


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2012)

So it's a miracle I can knock it round in a reasonable score considering I'm OTT compensated by early extension.

Just need to sort that little puppy out and the future's bright 
I might even be able to knock a shot off my handicap next year!


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			and allows you to hit DOWN aggressively into the ball.
		
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James,
How does this work with the driver, as I've always been taught to hit up on the ball with the big dawg..? I assume that ball position takes care of some of this, as does having my left shoulder higher than my right (i'm right handed).
Cheers
SB


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

I work on this move every day, I have a grip on a bit of shaft at my desk and when I go to smoke I take it and work on this move as I smoke, I get home and as soon as I get in the net I make the move with my hips before I even make a shot. Rotation is really what I am working on, I want to feel it in my gut on the right hand side to feel how the impact will feel. Clearly as you have pointed out there is some slide but you need to clear the hips too hu? 

Looking at your photo I have a kinda question. I spend a lot of time making sure or working on getting my club more upright on the way back but you are saying be ware not to be too steep on the way down... so why the hell am I working so hard to be steeper on the way back? I know the answer is "you don't want to get the club stuck behind you" but god, can this not be a little easier!!! 

I personally find this move also gives me the feeling of dropping my head back away from the target, I dont know if it actually does but it feels like it, it is a powerful feeling. What is more it seems to give me more room to swing through and for sure more momentum as my arms have to follow my body and as a result they can not lead the swing, again a powerful feeling.

The hard part for me is keeping lose, if i do not then I dont give myself time to make the move and end up faking it like my wife does, all too little too late. Timing Timing Timing Timing for me!


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

I work on this move every day at the moment, I keep a grip with a bit of shaft at my desk and when I smoke I work on this, when I get home and in the net I make the move over and over before I even swing the club at a ball. It is to tell/remind me of the feeling at impact.

I find that this move gives me the feeling of getting my head back away from the target, it feels really powerful, I donâ€™t know if I do get my head back but it feels like it. I am really working on rotation but there is a slide with that, I want my hips to clear. It feels like it gives me more room for my hands, it also feels like my arms follow my body, again a very powerful feeling and stops my arms leading the swing. 

A question, you talk about the club not getting too steep on the way down. I spend a lot of time making sure I do not get too flat on the way back so in my mind I am trying to be what I consider to be steep on the way back only to be not getting too steep on the way downâ€¦. I know I donâ€™t want to â€œget the club stuck behind meâ€ but jeeezzzz could you make this a little easier please!!! (Smiley).

For me this is all about timing, I have to be smooth or I do not give myself enough time at the top to make the move. I thought I had it down and then videoed my whole session the other day, on review I was over swinging so so much to try and make time, ugliest thing I have ever seen!! It is all about timing timing timing timing for me on this at the moment.  The overswing gives the hips such a long way to travel back to impact; I have to create a lot of resistance on my hips to cut the overswing down.

Anyway, I love it, I love everything about itâ€¦.


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## chrisd (Dec 20, 2012)

Jimbooo said:



			so does the head also move forwards (toward the target) on the downswing?
		
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For me the two parts of your body work independently at the start of the downswing. The top half - chest and arms and especially the head, stay still, whilst the hips, legs etc all slide (?) laterally sideways and eventually start to turn. This brings the arms down slowly and into the right side of the body and promotes a clubhead which comes in to out and accelerates through the hitting area rather than a big yahoo from the top.

Correct James/Bob?


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

StrangelyBrown said:



			James,
How does this work with the driver, as I've always been taught to hit up on the ball with the big dawg..? I assume that ball position takes care of some of this, as does having my left shoulder higher than my right (i'm right handed).
Cheers
SB
		
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With the driver it's VERY important to shallow the descent as it's the last club in the bag that you want to be steep on. As the ball is generally tee'd more forward when hitting the driver you can be very aggressive with the hips moving left and yet still not get to the ball.

Yes you can hit up on a driver if you want to (50% of pros hit down slightly, verified by Trackman) in which case it makes sense to tee the ball higher and/or have it more forward. It's better to experiment with the ball position and tee heights than changing your whole swing to accommodate where you've accidentally tee'd the ball.

Whilst I personally don't particularly like the way Camillo Villegas gets so much over his right leg, *just look how far left he goes with his hips* from the top of his backswing...

Watch (with commentary) from approx 30 seconds...

[video=youtube;8IHf07Cg0oQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IHf07Cg0oQ[/video]


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 20, 2012)

No youtube at work, but I'll check it out tonight.

Thank you 

SB

Edit: - A further thought occurs... I had a couple of shanks with a six iron on Saturday. Could this be caused by spinning my hips too quickly or is it separate issue of me getting my weight too far into my toes?


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			A question, you talk about the club not getting too steep on the way down. I spend a lot of time making sure I do not get too flat on the way back so in my mind I am trying to be what I consider to be steep on the way back only to be not getting too steep on the way downâ€¦. I know I donâ€™t want to â€œget the club stuck behind meâ€ but jeeezzzz could you make this a little easier please!!! (Smiley).
		
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If golf were too easy it would be boring 

Yes the club goes up a little steeper than it comes down, and the *steeper* you take it the *more* it has to come down. It's typically thought of as a reverse loop where it goes up steep then moves away from the ball as it shallows.... as the hips slide.


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If golf were too easy it would be boring 

Yes the club goes up a little steeper than it comes down, and the *steeper* you take it the *more* it has to come down. *It's typically thought of as a reverse loop* where it goes up steep then moves away from the ball as it shallows.... as the hips slide.
		
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I agree


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If golf were too easy it would be boring 

Yes the club goes up a little steeper than it comes down, and the *steeper* you take it the *more* it has to come down. It's typically thought of as a reverse loop where it goes up steep then moves away from the ball as it shallows.... as the hips slide.
		
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So why go up steep then? just to stop the club getting stuck? I ask as surly a flat take away is a swing fault?!


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			So why go up steep then? just to stop the club getting stuck? I ask as surly a flat take away is a swing fault?!
		
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As I said, the steeper you go up the more it has to come down, on that basis my thoughts would be that it makes no sense to take it up *too* steep, but likewise too flat is bad/awkward so why do that either? I would consider MEDIUM to be ideal and that's getting into 1 plane VS 2 plane which I'll be posting my thoughts on later... can't post it all in one go (only type with 2 fingers)


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			As I said, the steeper you go up the more it has to come down, on that basis my thoughts would be that it makes no sense to take it up *too* steep, but likewise too flat is bad/awkward so why do that either? I would consider MEDIUM to be ideal and that's getting into 1 plane VS 2 plane which I'll be posting my thoughts on later... can't post it all in one go (only type with 2 fingers) 

Click to expand...


Ahh yes but I am talking about club shaft plane not shoulder plane.....


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2012)

Fantastic thread James. Post #1 captures both my good and bad swings. Post #11, Robert Rock, is what I continue to hope for.

Best swing thread for ages...


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## AmandaJR (Dec 20, 2012)

Well that's my range focus for today sorted - thanks James. Have been way too steep with my driver lately and took a while to figure out why I was nailing them off the middle but surprised when they dropped down and not the distance I usually get. Heaven alone knows how much backspin I've been getting on them! The occasional one I get it right as I think "shallower" but think I am inclined to spin my hips rather than slide. Played the past couple of days with higher handicap ladies and a lot of times my drive was only just ahead of theirs as it dropped like a stone but massive difference in club selection and distance with every other shot but driver.

Will hopefully report back later with good results...


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

*2) Swing plane*

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and  away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... *this* is probably the *most common* position for club golfers.





So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly *Luke Donald*, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line





And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead *also* hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.





In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

AmandaJR said:



			Well that's my range focus for today sorted - thanks James. Have been way too steep with my driver lately and took a while to figure out why I was nailing them off the middle but surprised when they dropped down and not the distance I usually get.
		
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Amanda, these are just my swing thoughts, that said hopefully they'll help anyone's swing. If there are 20 pieces to a swing then I'd say most great golfers do at least 15 of them,. maybe more, but rarely less. I don't know which parts you may or may not be doing so would always recommend that you post a vid (if a second pair of eyes isn't available). Some pieces of the swing compliment each other, and some don't... eg a cupped wrist may work well for a 2-plane swing but less likely for a 1-plane swing.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 20, 2012)

James,

Some good stuff in there but............ 

I'm concerned you havn't made it clear what swing method you have used as examples on the clips. You are encouraging quite a few on here to use S & T, fair enough, but these clips are showing fairly conventional swings. I'm worried that some of the guys on here without a good understanding of swing mechanics could end up a bit confused. 

Do all the points you have brought up on this thread apply to both techniques or only one of the other?

Not raising the point for myself as a use a coach who I have 100% faith in and have a clear idea of what I'm trying to do (not enough talent to acieve it) but for the guys on here who need the help of our forum 'experts'


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

I think I just got that in with my post above probably as you were typing saving_par :thup:

For example in the Camillo Villegas reference he moves his weight a lot to the right so he has to make a mahooosive hip slide to get back even close to the ball... someone who is more centered would also slide.. just less. Even someone like Alvaro Quiros who claims not to slide at all DOES, it's just less. I can't cover every eventuality, these are just my swing thoughts on the basis that I can use them as reference when helping people and have seen a lot of great vids lately that I'd like to have in one place... and people can easily choose not to read this one post.


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



*2) Swing plane*

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and  away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... *this* is probably the *most common* position for club golfers.

View attachment 3932



So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly *Luke Donald*, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line

View attachment 3933



And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead *also* hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.

View attachment 3934



In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....
		
Click to expand...


I would be interested in this exact thing but from the top, any examples?


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



*2) Swing plane*

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and  away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... *this* is probably the *most common* position for club golfers.

View attachment 3932



So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly *Luke Donald*, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line

View attachment 3933



And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead *also* hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.

View attachment 3934



In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....
		
Click to expand...


I would be interested in this example but from the position at the top of the swing if you have a view on that please...


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## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2012)

It wont let me reply with quotes. RE:#26

I would be interested in your last posting with photos but from the top of the back swing if you have any examples or views please.


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 20, 2012)

The photos of Luke Donald and Charlie Wi have highlighted another backswing flaw of mine (and maybe of others).

I tend to open the club up on the backswing, where the toe would be pointing straight up halfway back. These images show that I should have the feeling of hooding the clubface on the backswing and not spin it open as much.

Good thread this :thup:


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2012)

So a backswing that is too flat is not good and a backswing that is too upright is not good either.
No arguements from me so far :thup:


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 20, 2012)

The piccies of LD and CW highlight that I probably open up the club too much on the backswing.


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

bobmac said:



			No arguements from me so far :thup:
		
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 I'm not going to argue at all Bob. As they are my thoughts I can't be wrong. I will however discuss anything you care to mention, highlight or disagree with of course.


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

StrangelyBrown said:



			I tend to open the club up on the backswing, where the toe would be pointing straight up halfway back. These images show that I should have the feeling of hooding the clubface on the backswing and not spin it open as much.
		
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That isn't necessarily a flaw SB, it depends on your swing. A 2-plane swing is predominently an ARM swing and as such when we try to swing (or lift) our arms up above the plane of our shoulders the socket naturally rotates. A 2-plane swinger would subsequently have a (preferred) neutral grip as they have different moves to perform in the downswing, whereas a 1-plane swing is a BODY swing, far less moving parts. The left arm doesn't go high, so the socket doesn't rotate and as such can have a stronger grip without the fear of hooking as the body squares up the clubface using the power of it's rotation with fairly passive hands, wrists and arms.

I would say that turning the club more than vertical is bad, preferably (as you say) a little turned down to the ball seeing as I've already said I prefer the plane of the club (and subsequently the left arm) to be more 'medium' than high.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2012)

Great post james.

I would just like to add that in the  One Plane swing the left upper arm needs to be clamped to the chest (Pec) in the backswing and the right arm the same in the downswing.  This helps to prevent an Over the Top move and assists to keep you connected so the rotational forces travel out to the club.


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

*2) Swing plane, cont...*

To understand the takeaway we need to understand the swing plane itself. There are two TYPES of swing called a 1-plane and a 2-plane swing.. these are to do with whether the left arm is LEVEL with the tilt of the shoulders at the top of the swing (1-plane) or whether the left arm goes HIGHER than the tilt of the shoulders at the top of the swing (2-plane),...

however ALL SWINGS have 2 planes because we have to get the club from swinging around our bodies at *waist* height to swinging around at *shoulder* height.... and again, as discussed we use a hip slide to drop somewhat to the lower plane in the downswing.

If I take Luke Donald again as an example you can see the plane of the CLUB at address if the head were to strike the ball..





And here is the second plane at the top of the swing where the club has now gone to swinging around his shoulders instead of his waist....





Getting rid of the confusing part it looks like this... *two planes*, we get the club up to the top plane... then hope to get somewhere near the lower plane on the way down...





In changing from these two planes the clubhead will just follow wherever it's lead to... so it creates it's OWN plane, the true path of the club....the PINK LINE




and this is where we go wrong in the takeaway as the perception is that we need to get the clubhead swinging around behind us on the 'waist plane' rather than switching from the 'waist plane' to the 'shoulder plane' and we get the club stuck somewhere behind our thighs.


There are no straight lines on the arc that we take the club away from the ball, if we try to take the club back away from the ball in a straight line it would make our hands move AWAY from our bodies and we don't want that. There is no 'low and slow' we don't swing the clubhead, we swing the GRIP. The tail does not wag the dog. When you make your takeaway consider that YOU are swinging the club, not it swinging you. All you need to do is get the GRIP of the club to where you want as it arrives at parallel to the ground... there's only a grip in your hands, no club, no clubhead. You're not allowing the clubhead to sneak it's way around behind your knees... you have the grip end! you control it.

Here's a video I like by Mark Crossfield,... more simple to understand than what I just wrote! No mention of low and slow, taking the club back in a straight line yadayada..

[video=youtube;0n5ztQ_7qvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n5ztQ_7qvY[/video]

From this parallel to the ground position the club is going to go up somewhat onto the SHOULDER plane.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Amanda, these are just my swing thoughts, that said hopefully they'll help anyone's swing. If there are 20 pieces to a swing then I'd say most great golfers do at least 15 of them,. maybe more, but rarely less. I don't know which parts you may or may not be doing so would always recommend that you post a vid (if a second pair of eyes isn't available). Some pieces of the swing compliment each other, and some don't... eg a cupped wrist may work well for a 2-plane swing but less likely for a 1-plane swing.
		
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Agree James and found today that a focus on my hips "probably" makes me spin them even more. I'm hitting everything but my driver really well so can't complain too much but....hitting everything really well would be nice!

The 1 plane 2 plane thingy has hurt my head so will come back to that when the painkillers kick in


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

AmandaJR said:



			Agree James and found today that a focus on my hips "probably" makes me spin them even more. I'm hitting everything but my driver really well so can't complain too much but....hitting everything really well would be nice!
		
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It's just part of the process Amanda. You could try moving the ball more forwards or more back, teeing it higher or lower, standing closer to it or further away - and find something that works without having to change your swing. The question is once you find that perfect place will you turn up with the same swing next time you play?  Just the process......

If you change something for the betterment but then can't hit the ball you're at a crossroads, straight back to how you were swinging?.. or make the change. Generally it's revert straight back to the old swing and seek more advice  My choice was to change as much as i could.. I didn't want my old swing one little bit, it was like an old car that gave me nothing but trouble and I didn't even enjoy driving it!


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2012)

James, do you think it's acceptable to swing in between the 2 red lines?




I used to be able to make these pictures bigger


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## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Great post james.

I would just like to add that in the  One Plane swing the left upper arm needs to be clamped to the chest (Pec) in the backswing and the right arm the same in the downswing.  This helps to prevent an Over the Top move and assists to keep you connected so the rotational forces travel out to the club.
		
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I'd challenge anyone to do *exactly* this and hit the ball a decent distance! But staying 'connected' is all important for both styles, or even Moe Norman's single plane swing - the epitome of a one plane swing!

To me, Hogan's fundamentals cover it all. All the differences come down to physical attributes, rhythm, tempo and timing - or variations on those descriptions.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It's just part of the process Amanda. You could try moving the ball more forwards or more back, teeing it higher or lower, standing closer to it or further away - and find something that works without having to change your swing. The question is once you find that perfect place will you turn up with the same swing next time you play?  Just the process......

If you change something for the betterment but then can't hit the ball you're at a crossroads, straight back to how you were swinging?.. or make the change. Generally it's revert straight back to the old swing and seek more advice  My choice was to change as much as i could.. I didn't want my old swing one little bit, it was like an old car that gave me nothing but trouble and I didn't even enjoy driving it!
		
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Last couple of lessons have been on my driver. First one identified I was starting the downswing inside but then letting my hands/arms move forwards to the ball. So we worked on feeling my hands stayed closer to me which got me hitting it off the middle. By the next lesson I was hitting a few high push/fades and had started to really open the club - how the hell I got it remotely square by impact was a flipping miracle (literally). So we worked on the club face through the swing and my coach applied "reverse pressure" which really got me to feel where it needed to be. Hit some nice draws and the odd hook which was fine but it also got me way too steep. Worked with the inflatable thingy behind me which I had to bring the club under but it remains a tough one for me to achieve with any consistency and can see where I've bashed the tee bag flat into the ground never mind the ball flight.

Next lesson is on Monday. We have also worked on my impact position and a focus on my left knee so it doesn't collapse inwards so much. That helps me tremendously with my irons and I think focussing on holding firm on the way back, then shifting that towards the target from the top has the same effect as the hip slide...then I get the driver in my hand and swing way too long...aaaggghhh!!!


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

^
^
^
And *you're* getting a headache reading *my* posts? 






Agree with the left knee, you don't want it to collapse.


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2012)

Thats a lot of thoughts Amanda


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## AmandaJR (Dec 20, 2012)

That has been over the course of 3 lessons. Hands closer - got it. Left knee - got it. Club face - not yet got it!

Irons - only thought is left knee and has made a huge difference in terms of consistency and distance. 
Driver - trying to work on all 3...perhaps that's why I'm struggling and need to prioritise BUT did work for a few weeks on the hands and consistently off the middle so felt ready to move onto the direction...


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2012)

bobmac said:



			James, do you think it's acceptable to swing in between the 2 red lines?

View attachment 3940

Click to expand...

I was coming to that in my next bit Bob. In brief the top line is more inclined to represent a 2-plane swing in my opinion, I'd rather see the top line lower.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I'd challenge anyone to do *exactly* this and hit the ball a decent distance! But staying 'connected' is all important for both styles, or even Moe Norman's single plane swing - the epitome of a one plane swing!

To me, Hogan's fundamentals cover it all. All the differences come down to physical attributes, rhythm, tempo and timing - or variations on those descriptions.
		
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Dont want to get into [/B] 'Exactly * that introduces too much detail for golf swings.  I am talking of the concept a golf would have of keeping the upper arm in contact with the chest, to exaggerate it a bit pushes home the concept.  

Here is someone who has a similar idea: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OhaLgIQiM

This guy also hits it a fair distance with his upper arms well connected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgL2THhn4ro*


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 21, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The left arm doesn't go high, so the socket doesn't rotate and as such can have a stronger grip without the fear of hooking as the body squares up the clubface using the power of it's rotation with fairly passive hands, wrists and arms.
		
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I like the sound of this, fewer moving parts, less to go wrong.



JustOne said:



			I would say that turning the club more than vertical is bad, preferably (as you say) a little turned down to the ball seeing as I've already said I prefer the plane of the club (and subsequently the left arm) to be more 'medium' than high.
		
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It's another thing I'm working on, especially with the driver. I'm trying to get the feeling that I've got the club face pointing at the ball during the initial take away.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 21, 2012)

That's similar to how my pro teaches.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont want to get into [/B] 'Exactly * that introduces too much detail for golf swings.  I am talking of the concept a golf would have of keeping the upper arm in contact with the chest, to exaggerate it a bit pushes home the concept.  

Here is someone who has a similar idea: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OhaLgIQiM

This guy also hits it a fair distance with his upper arms well connected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgL2THhn4ro*

Click to expand...

*

It was the exactly that was key to my assertion.

Given that Ritter's vid absolutely contradicts your statement about the arms being clamped to the chest (at least my interpretation of what clamped means), I'll consider that an agreement.

And I'm pretty sure Tiger didn't hit that shot anywhere near as far as he can. It was only a 3/4 back-swing, so was a particular shot for a particular distance, not his standard 220yd 7-iron.

Couple of interesting vids in the post vid display though. I might check out the warm-up exercise one from bottom-right one! I don't think I'll be using the same gear though!

Emphasising/exaggerating (certainly exaggerating) things about the golf swing rarely works (apart from effects) imo unless the recipient of the info knows that it's an exaggeration. More often, it causes problems - which I'm certain would have happened if someone took your 'advice' literally. So well-meaning as it may have been, it was, imo, very bad advice, which is why I replied.

Simply providing the link to the Ritter vid on connection would have been a much better way imo.*


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## JustOne (Dec 21, 2012)

*2) Swing plane, cont....*

In a 2-plane swing the shoulders turn flatter, pointing towards a point on the ground some 10-15ft past the ball, the left arm gets HIGHER than the plane of the shoulders (above the brown line) and the hands get to the higher green line.





In a 1-plane swing the shoulders turn steeper, pointing towards a point on the ground some 2-4ft past the ball, the left arm doesn't get above the plane of the shoulders (on or below the brown line) and the hands don't get anywhere near the top green line.





So we can see in this next picture that in a 2-plane swing the hands will be heading for the RED dot at the top whilst in the 1-plane swing the hands will head for the PINK dot




As the hands are heading less UP and more DEEP (more 'backwards' so to speak) the hand path on the takeaway is more inwards for a 1-plane swing (the bend in the pink line is more 'back' from the bend in the red line) in other words the hands just rotate naturally on the takeaway in an arc as the shoulders rotate. It's not easy to do this if you set up with your hands tight to your thighs... but they shouldn't be as you should be in a better posture to start with! (a 2-plane swinger will stand more upright and potentially have the hands closer... an extreme would be Jim Furyk, very upright and very close hands.

And finally on swing plane I want to record my thoughts on the beauty of the 1-plane swing (so I remember why I like it)...

When it's time for the downswing there is a weightshift in both swing styles however in the 1-plane swing this weighshift is enough to drop the club onto plane, with the left arm *already* connected to the torso you're good to go.... your connected and on plane so you can now JUST SWING... and you can swing EVERYTHING, no need to fire the hips or spin them out or have the shoulders trailing, no x-factor or stuff like that the hips and arms can go TOGETHER, you're on plane and swinging from the INSIDE just go for it!

and it looks like this....hips and shoulders rotate together on the downswing...

[video=youtube;4DgdhuiSidA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgdhuiSidA[/video]

You can't do this with the 2-plane swing as you're not on plane and you're not connected, there's actually a delay because your shoulders are flat and your left arm isn't connected to your chest... you cannot swing both hips and shoulders at the same time as the club will go directly outside the correct swingpath (slices) when your hands are high, so you have to find the lower plane and that requires a big drop of the hands away from the ball and a fast rotation of the hips so that the arms can find their path after having to rotate upwards... it goes on.. but it's so complicated to even write about I don't even want to think about it, let alone try to do it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2012)

James,

While it's quite likely (though not guaranteed) that the 1-plane swing could provide a more consistent swing for many golfers. However, as neither style is actually on plane at the end of the back-swing and both have to 'drop' onto down-swing plane (a plane shift), I believe you are are exaggerating the 'benefits' of the 1-plane one somewhat - or at least the 'deficiencies'of the 2-plane one.  Both require timing - of/before the twist and throw for 1PS. 

And the way in which a 1PS-er can still have a certain amount of 'above the shoulder' (12* I believe) arm angle grates somewhat - purely on a definition basis. I'd sooner see it defined by other characteristics - it may in fact, be so defined.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Simply providing the link to the Ritter vid on connection would have been a much better way imo.
		
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Forget the 'Clamped' it was not meant to be taken as literal as you take it.   'held' would be a better description.

Ritter?   Did I make a link to him, if I did it was a mistake.  I linked one from Jim Maclean and one of Tiger


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Ritter?   Did I make a link to him, if I did it was a mistake.  I linked one from Jim Maclean and one of Tiger 

Click to expand...

Oops - Sorry, 'my bad!' 

Didn't recognise JM. He seems about 25 years older in the (Revolution) vids I have of him. A Ritter vid was at the top of items on the right, along with other JM ones, so I made a (wrong, but maybe excusable) assumption!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Oops - Sorry, 'my bad!' 

Didn't recognise JM. He seems about 25 years older in the (Revolution) vids I have of him. A Ritter vid was at the top of items on the right, along with other JM ones, so I made a (wrong, but maybe excusable) assumption!
		
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Forgiven this time :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			James,

While it's quite likely (though not guaranteed) that the 1-plane swing could provide a more consistent swing for many golfers. However, as neither style is actually on plane at the end of the back-swing and both have to 'drop' onto down-swing plane (a plane shift), I believe you are are exaggerating the 'benefits' of the 1-plane one somewhat - or at least the 'deficiencies'of the 2-plane one.  Both require timing - of/before the twist and throw for 1PS. 

And the way in which a 1PS-er can still have a certain amount of 'above the shoulder' (12* I believe) arm angle grates somewhat - purely on a definition basis. I'd sooner see it defined by other characteristics - it may in fact, be so defined.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm a BIT biased. It's alright to talk about what the pros do or don't do, we'd all like to swing like Adam Scott or Ernie Els and we use them all the time for examples but something stupid low like 1% of golfers ever make it to CAT1, 99% of golfers need more help so wouldn't it make sense to teach the easiest way possible? For me that puts a 1-plane swing ahead of a 2-plane swing in terms of learning. We're not going to be on the tour any time soon so isn't it important to make the game more enjoyable, more fulfilling... and less complex?

We could split hairs all day whether a player should have a cupped, flat or bowed wrist at the top of their swing or a weak, neutral or strong grip but in reality the majority of golfers face far more basic problems like fanning the club open on their backswing, swinging over the top or rolling their wrists over through impact. For me the 1-plane swing comes out a winner, although I have no problem with someone choosing the hard way


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2012)

In not so many words, swing between the 2 lines and keep your head still ?







(I lowered the upper line for you a bit)


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			In not so many words, .... and *keep your head still* ?
		
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Bob.

Very surprised to see/hear using that phrase! 

'Quiet' perhaps, 'under control' maybe, but not 'still'. Very dangerous!


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Bob.

Very surprised to see/hear using that phrase! 

'Quiet' perhaps, 'under control' maybe, but not 'still'. Very dangerous!
		
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This thread is about Jame's thoughts so I'm not going to argue with you


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			In not so many words, swing between the 2 lines and keep your head still ?






Click to expand...

I can show 1000's of swings that are higher and 1000's that are lower but in terms of a 'contol' swing (as in a base example for an experiment) then *yes* I think that's a reasonable objective.


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			In not so many words.... and keep your head still ?
		
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Foxholer said:



			Bob.

Very surprised to see/hear using that phrase! 

'Quiet' perhaps, 'under control' maybe, but not 'still'. Very dangerous!
		
Click to expand...




bobmac said:



			This thread is about Jame's thoughts so I'm not going to argue with you
		
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Apart from the fact that James has posted in the forum, therefore is inviting comment....

James.

What's your opinion about the (*exact*) phrase 'keep the head still'? 

Potentially dangerous?

What would you suggest? Quiet?

BTW. How still is this, apparently rather good,  golfer's head? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			James.

What's your opinion about the (*exact*) phrase 'keep the head still'?
		
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It's better than the phrase "Wag your head around like a dog's tail" 

I didn't notice that Bob had written that as I was looking at the swing plane part of his post, I don't know if it was just a simple turn of phrase or something more 'leading' but it's of no consequence. I said earlier that Robert Rock's head moves forwards and downwards so I know where I stand.

The head moves in the swing, the 'ideal' would be to make a good turn to limit any 'unnecessary' movement.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



*1) Hip slide*

We've often heard "turn don't slide" and relate that to being a bad thing. The thing is that relates to the BACKSWING and not the downswing. You don't want to slide your lower body away from the ball on the backswing, only towards the target on the way down.

Transfering the weight to the left during TRANSITION or 'sliding' allows the club to drop down onto the same plane (or close) to the right forearm and assists your swingpath the approach the ball from the inside rather than the outside. It also moves the point that your club will hit the ground forwards so you are less likely to hit the ground before the ball.

It also stops the right heel flipping out (it rolls onto it's side a little more), set the hips and allows you to hit DOWN aggressively into the ball.

Video...

[video=youtube;Slyu5noOUjA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slyu5noOUjA[/video]
		
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This looks to me like a severe overexaggeration to emphasise his point. A hip slide is a dangerous thing as it can lead to thinning the ball or carving shots way out to the right as when the clubhead passes the ball it is still wide open due to the hands not catching up. Below is a link to McIroy's swing, widely regarded as one of the best swings in the game and the key move is the hip ROTATION through impact. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t55f0qVLYj8


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## richart (Dec 22, 2012)

Steve, the pro at my Club has taken up teaching a one plane swing in the last two years. Goes out to see Jim Hardy in the States two or three times a year, and has been getting great results with his teaching. I didn't realise I had a one plane swing, but I am not his best pupil as the posture required to swing effectively kills my back.

Next time you are at the Club, you should have a chat with him James. He is just as enthusiastic as you about the golf swing (talks a lot).


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2012)

'Quiet' perhaps, 'under control' maybe, but not 'still'. Very dangerous!
		
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I was of course talking in the context of the thread about a lateral movement of the head on the backswing which should be avoided to prevent a sway onto the right side, not something I'm sure James would teach.....or would you think that keeping the head still on the backswing is 'dangerous' too?
If you can see any lateral movement of my head on my video, you're a better man than me.


(Note to myself........... must be more precise in my postings to avoid unwanted criticism, especially on someone else's thread.)


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2012)

Head movement; Youtube any of the top golfers and you will see head movement. In some cases there is a fair bit of movement, inc dipping, but in almost every example the head position at impact is pretty close to its start point. Tiger used to do it loads, and surprisingly when he was at his very peak.

Hip slide; again, Youtube the top guys. Its there to a greater or lesser extent with all of them. But drive4show makes a valid point... my bad shots are when I've slid too far too early and are a thin or a low slice.

As with any element of any swing (and they all have stars earning millions from them), get it wrong and it can be ugly.


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

drive4show said:



			This looks to me like a severe overexaggeration to emphasise his point. A hip slide is a dangerous thing as it can lead to thinning the ball or carving shots way out to the right as when the clubhead passes the ball it is still wide open due to the hands not catching up. Below is a link to McIroy's swing, widely regarded as one of the best swings in the game and the key move is the hip ROTATION through impact.
		
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With driver McIlroy swings *to the right* more than just about anyone on Tour with an HSP in excess of 10 degrees to the right, so I didn't understand the point you're trying to make :thup:

I think this link to McIlroys stats still works, his HSP is as high as 13.8 degrees
http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/2/24/24773189_ScreenShot2011-11-11at1.56.34pm.PNG

You can see his left hip moves closer to the target here...

[video=youtube;LHAp_-mEhQo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHAp_-mEhQo[/video]

I agree the video you referred to could well be exaggerated and that much slide might or might not be good for your own swing.. but it happens, that's the point of the vid. As I said earlier Quiros doesn't have a big hip slide... but he has one.


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			(Note to myself........... must be more precise in my postings to avoid unwanted criticism, especially on someone else's thread.) 

Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry, I'm not worried by it. :thup: Post what you want to post :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			With driver McIlroy swings *to the right* more than just about anyone on Tour with an HSP in excess of 10 degrees to the right, so I didn't understand the point you're trying to make :thup:

I think this link to McIlroys stats still works, his HSP is as high as 13.8 degrees
http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/2/24/24773189_ScreenShot2011-11-11at1.56.34pm.PNG

You can see his left hip moves closer to the target here...

[video=youtube;LHAp_-mEhQo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHAp_-mEhQo[/video]

I agree the video you referred to could well be exaggerated and that much slide might or might not be good for your own swing.. but it happens, that's the point of the vid. As I said earlier Quiros doesn't have a big hip slide... but he has one.
		
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Watching that Video its interesting how far Rory dips his head in the downswing, look at it's position against the trees in the background.   His forward hip move is noticeable if you look at the relative position in relation to the distant golfer (in white) at the top then at impact.

P.S.

James, this is a great thread.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Watching that Video its interesting how far Rory dips his head in the downswing, look at it's position against the trees in the background.   His forward hip move is noticeable if you look at the relative position in relation to the distant golfer (in white) at the top then at impact.
		
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Brian

Agreed that a weight transfer to the left is required to generate power but the end frame in your video shows McIlroy's left leg straight and his hips have hardly moved in front of the ball position but he has completed a massive rotation.

James....HSP???  Don't know that acronym


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Brian

Agreed that a weight transfer to the left is required to generate power but the end frame in your video shows McIlroy's left leg straight and his hips have hardly moved in front of the ball position but he has completed a massive rotation.

James....HSP???  Don't know that acronym 

Click to expand...

Wasn't my video, I was just taken by the head dip and forward move.    Rory is so impressive for his age.


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

drive4show said:



			James....HSP???  Don't know that acronym 

Click to expand...

It's Horizontal Swing Plane, (5th column) if his swing plane was lined up down the line it would be 0.

He swings *out* at about 10, *up* at about 4 giving a true path of about 6. If you look at how much he hits UP it is very random, as low at 1.2 degrees and as high as 8. Of course in these figures he could be messing with tee heights or even ball position which is why we look at the average stats as they represent and ongoing pattern to his shots... which normally end up to the LEFT of center.. an 'over-draw'.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It's Horizontal Swing Plane, (5th column) if his swing plane was lined up down the line it would be 0.

He swings out at about 10, up at about 4 giving a true path of about 6. If you look at how much he hits UP it is very random, as low at 1.2 degrees and as high as 8. Of course in these figures he could be messing with tee heights or even ball position which is why we look at the average stats as they represent and ongoing pattern to his shots... which normally end up to the LEFT of center.. an 'over-draw'.
		
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Is this measured from a horizontal line through his hips?


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## JustOne (Dec 22, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Is this measured from a horizontal line through his hips?
		
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It's just trackman measuring the plane of the swingpath, it doesn't measure whether he's aiming straight and swinging out (away from his body), or lined up closed (and swinging along his body line) which I think has always been a weakness in trackman as it should show your AIM. In my opinion. I would say that is possibly why many pros are also using K Vest nowadays to _really_ see what they are doing. One technology compliments the other.


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## JustOne (Dec 23, 2012)

*3) The Shanks*

There are lots of videos out there about shanking, some say there are two ways to shank some say three so already there's some confusion... there's several different ways, that's all you need to know, but one thing ultimately is the cause and that is the club is further away from you at impact than you want it to be.

There are several ways that this can happen, some are easier to fix that others and some are harder to identify and fix, but we need to identify what you are doing to have the club further away from you than you want it to be.

A basic reason is quite simply that you are falling forward onto your toes, this means that the hands are moving closer to the ball and so is the hosel. It's a basic reason but a hard one to spot. Often only the player can feel this one as the club only need to be pushed forwards by 3/4 of an inch and it's a shank.

A second reason is that your hands are too close to your body to start with, then when you swing your hands move slightly away from you, and so does the hosel. Jim Furyk is a good example of this, his hands are UBER close to his thighs at address... and he shanks occasionally.

A third reason is that you spin your hips so much that your right hip turns closer to the ball leaving no space for your hands so they get squeezed closer to the ball, and so does the hosel.... erm, Jim Furyk is guilty of this LOL and he shanks occasionally.

Good time for a video of Jim's swing... as you can see at address his hands are very close to his thighs so if they move away from him just slightly on the downswing he's going to shank it. He can avoid that happening by steepening the shaft but that's a compensation and a power loss.... he's also not a long hitter.... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKaMxgFx5_w

You can see that on the downswing his right hip gets close to being in the way, it's uber cramped, if anything he just raises a half inch in his backswing to create that vital movement away from the ball that stops him shanking more often.

Here's one that shows his driver swing... notice Peter Kostis says there's no driving of his body towards the golf ball? That's because he CAN'T. If his hands move away from him just one inch then he'll hit the ball off the heel... or the hosel if it's an iron. Again you can quite clearly see here that his hands are very close to his thighs, the tiny lift of the head in the backswing and just how close the hands pass to his right hip on the downswing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHDGq8os1GQ


So that's 3 quick reasons why people shank: weight on the toes, hands too close to the thighs and a spinning right hip getting in the way on the downswing.

The cure for the *weight on the toes* is not to fall forwards onto your toes obviously! but people tend to do this when they don't feel they can get to the ball in the first place, some people are standing too upright others have the club too close to their thighs or the hands (shaft of the club) too upright. Not easy to identify. A couple of things you can try is to address the ball right out of the hosel of the club in the first place, then you'll KNOW you will be reaching the ball and will focus on moving further away from the ball on your downswing, kind of a 'fight or flight' reaction.. back off or shank it. Another thing you can do is make sure that you start your downswing with a feeling of pressing your left heel into the ground, you're simply not going to let the weight get onto your toes.

The second problem with the *hands close to the thighs* at address is easy to change, just address the ball in a good posture (you don't just want to reach out for the ball) with your hands a good 4-5 inches away from your thighs... a classic position would be something like that of Luke Donald, as you can see, unlike Furyk, he creates some space between the club and his thighs so that the club has some space to swing back down unhindered.

(nb: a common reason why people have their hands too close to their thighs is TOO MUCH knee bend at address)




The third problem where the *hips spin* is fixed (again) by making sure you have enough space at address BUT also by making sure you move a little to the LEFT in transition to create some space for the club to swing down into, get a little weight to your left side so that your right hip can't possibly get in the way. You can't just stand still and spin your hips else you'll have no space between your right hip and the ball to swing your hands down... ala Furyk (I seem to be picking on him lately) he makes it work though with exquisite timing but still gets it wrong sometimes.

Here's a video by Leadbetter....
(note: he does suggest that people who fall forward go more to the heels but that often just makes them fall forwards more as they feel even further away from the ball!, but other than that i like the vid)
What is interesting is that he's a *PRIME CANDIDATE* for shanking himself, just look how close he has his hands to his thighs at address and just how much CLOSER he has to get them through impact... *there's literally no room for error there*... anyway, the vid....

[video=youtube;y9JvY8-vQ4A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9JvY8-vQ4A[/video]


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## Val (Dec 23, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Watching that Video its interesting how far Rory dips his head in the downswing, look at it's position against the trees in the background.   His forward hip move is noticeable if you look at the relative position in relation to the distant golfer (in white) at the top then at impact.

P.S.

James, this is a great thread.
		
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It's not so much his head its his body in general and one of the reasons he generates so much power. Many top pros have this move however Rory's is probably the most noticeable.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2012)

Valentino said:



			It's not so much his head its his body in general and one of the reasons he generates so much power. Many top pros have this move however Rory's is probably the most noticeable.
		
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Well, yes, thats right.    Where the head goes the body will follow but it's very noticeable in that video.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2012)

Re: Shanks.

Good thread James.   I suffered them for a while and the cause was my right hip blocking the club.

Another cause can be swinging out to in.


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## Crow (Dec 23, 2012)

Totally off topic but I spotted this instrument of torture after watching one of the videos on the thread.

Somehow I can't imagine it's made the guy's fortune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7PBj95bvk8


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2012)

Crow said:



			Totally off topic but I spotted this instrument of torture after watching one of the videos on the thread.

Somehow I can't imagine it's made the guy's fortune.
		
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I bet he makes a few Rand from repairing broken shafts though!

Not all that dis-similar to the Explanar, just allowing for the different path (as opposed to plane) on the down-swing 

I actually saw and used an interesting aid yesterday - course wasn't open so we went to the inside (teaching) bay. It's a grip with a shaft with a U shaped gadget that sits on top of the right shoulder at end of back-swing. Then the idea is that you keep it there until the right elbow is about at hip level. It gets the feeling of the correct sequencing - hip shift (not rotate) first before arms swing through. Certainly helped prevent my tendency to cast slightly.


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## Alex1975 (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi James, 

As much as I respect your opinion I am going to question it here. When I first read and commented on this post I had not herd the video, only watched it.

I looked on the net for other hip slide videos and for the most part it is all about ways not to do it, and I am not talking on the way back.

Here are my issues with slide over rotate:

If you slide your hips as your first move you are moving your body away from your hands so changing your impact position, it becomes a moving target to catch up, your head gets behind the ball so that when you do make impact you are taking loft of the club and much much worse you have the club head open as you are now bent back with your hips forward, fooling yourself that your weight has shifted. You hit the ball and struggle to make a good follow though and stagger back as your tummy is through but your head it back.


Rotate and the path is starting to close as is the face of the club from the first move, your hands are not rushing to get back to the ball as you are balanced and in time, your not moving your mid rift away from the ball. You have far more power as you are hitting the ball with your core not moving your core away from the ball. At impact your hands and hips are together and timing is good. Follow though is natural and balanced and feels strong.

The feeling of having my head behind the ball at impact and looking down the target line feels strong with the slide but feel is not real and it cost my this weekend.

I am not telling you facts, I am telling you how I feel and what I have seen. I am interested in what you have to say about it. If I have not moved my hips away from the target on the way back why the hell am I moving them towards the target on the way through?

Alex


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## JustOne (Jan 7, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Here are my issues with slide over rotate:

If you slide your hips as your first move you are moving your body away from your hands so changing your impact position, it becomes a moving target to catch up, your head gets behind the ball so that when you do make impact you are taking loft of the club and much much worse you have the club head open as you are now bent back with your hips forward, fooling yourself that your weight has shifted. You hit the ball and struggle to make a good follow though and stagger back as your tummy is through but your head it back.
		
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I'll cover this paragraph Alex as it's really the one to focus on.

The hips slide shallows the angle of attack so that you don't hit down too steeply. It will put loft ON the club not take it off.

This move is less with a one-plane swing as you're already more on plane.

Yes, the club face would be open if you hit the ball in the correct place (it's meant to be), the ball would start a little to the right and draw back to the target.

The hips move left (even though they never went right) to shallow the angle of attack but also to provide a platform for you to move your weight on to so that you create more power, like a boxer moving forwards into his punch. He doesn't step back before he punches you, he might 'brace' before it's lights out 

In a 2-plane swing you also have to rotate the hips seperate to the shoulders (x-factor) which you don't do in a one-plane swing as the arms aren't generating the power, the pivot rotation is. X-factor has been shown to be not only hard on the body but hard to time and has to go hand in hand with a lot of other complex moves eg, head moving behind the ball in the backswing.

There are 2 different actions which is why you'll see a lot of conflicting advice both on the web and the forum. I tend to judge each swing for it's own merits even though I have a pattern I like :thup


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2013)

One for me.....

[video=youtube;i4sT7CXR8WQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=i4sT7CXR8WQ[/video]


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2013)

JustOne said:



			One for me.....

[video=youtube;i4sT7CXR8WQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=i4sT7CXR8WQ[/video]
		
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Thats an interesting lecture JO.   The problem for me is all the angles are so precise, I just cant see how anyone can return close enough to say the 45 deg VSP such that you will be able to produce repeatable outcomes.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats an interesting lecture JO.   The problem for me is all the angles are so precise, I just cant see how anyone can return close enough to say the 45 deg VSP such that you will be able to produce repeatable outcomes.
		
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Good 2D explanation of part of what D-Plane shows. Also good to explain numbers from Trackman.

Don't see a problem in the precision of the angles. With a consistent swing it will be the player's experience that makes the adjustment to get them 'correct'. There is absolutely no way that any player can say 'the face was dead square' or 'face was a 2* open' but they can see the ball go straight, or not, and the experience will allow them to groove that feeling. That's also the reason that Pro advocates of the 'old' ball flight laws 'unconsciously' made the adjustment required to set the face at the correct angle to work.

Does challenge/disprove the validity of the 'keep the club-face square' approach though!  Divots don't lie either.


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Does challenge/disprove the validity of the 'keep the club-face square' approach though! 

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Precisely. If someone is teaching you to have the clubface square they are basically setting you up to have 'issues' that will need to be fixed in the future... but they won't actually be able to fix them as they'll keep implying that you need the face square.... :clap: As an instructor it's a cool way of printing your own money


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Don't see a problem in the precision of the angles. With a consistent swing it will be the player's experience that makes the adjustment to get them 'correct'. There is absolutely no way that any player can say 'the face was dead square' or 'face was a 2* open' but they can see the ball go straight, or not,
		
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So, someone hits the ball and it pushes right.   Was the problem that the shaft was not returned precisely to 60 deg VSP; was the swingpath to the right with the face open, did their hips block the arms, did they open the clubface and fail to return it square, was their alignment out, was it a compound of all these things?  Oh! and they dont have trackman to tell them.  Divots wont always tell whats happening.

I think the video was very interesting and informative and it was to give instructors a better understanding.   If they have Trackman type data then this type of understanding could be helpful.    For the average Joe, I think not.


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2013)

^
^
I agree SR. Likewise if someone hits a 20yrd slice how can you tell that they didn't swing perfectly if you've set them up that way


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2013)

JustOne said:



			^
^
I agree SR. Likewise if someone hits a 20yrd slice how can you tell that they didn't swing perfectly if you've set them up that way 

Click to expand...

Fair point.


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