# Nomads to get official handicaps



## rosecott (Dec 11, 2020)

Hot off the press.
England Golf to offer handicaps to nomads from 2021


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## Orikoru (Dec 11, 2020)

Would you have to pay a fee for it? They wouldn't manage a whole load of handicaps for free surely.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2020)

Yep just seen the email 

Interesting development and will be interesting to see how clubs react to it and what some clubs do with Open entries 

Will be interesting to see how much the Governing bodies charge for a handicap to be maintained for a nomad 

Can see it being a wide open goal for pot hunters


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## rosecott (Dec 11, 2020)

No fine details yet, but there will be communications out in January, February and March as things are developed. Obviously there will have to be some sort of charge.


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## Jimmy_T (Dec 11, 2020)

A positive move I think. Having found myself ‘between clubs’ this year in terms of membership (I was due to change clubs at the star of April but deferred when COVID hit), I found that being a nomad shuts down a lot of open comps, Because most require an active handicap.

I’ll once again be a club member in January so it won’t effect me, but if I could have paid a modest sum (say £50?) to have an active handicap for the last 9 months (lockdown aside!) I would have done so in a heartbeat.


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## rosecott (Dec 11, 2020)

Jimmy_T said:



			A positive move I think. Having found myself ‘between clubs’ this year in terms of membership (I was due to change clubs at the star of April but deferred when COVID hit), I found that being a nomad shuts down a lot of open comps, Because most require an active handicap.

I’ll once again be a club member in January so it won’t effect me, but if I could have paid a modest sum (say £50?) to have an active handicap for the last 9 months (lockdown aside!) I would have done so in a heartbeat.
		
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I think the modest sum needs to be around the £50 mark to placate members of affiliated clubs.


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## jim8flog (Dec 11, 2020)

Jimmy_T said:



			A positive move I think. Having found myself ‘between clubs’ this year in terms of membership (I was due to change clubs at the star of April but deferred when COVID hit), I found that being a nomad shuts down a lot of open comps, Because most require an active handicap.

I’ll once again be a club member in January so it won’t effect me, but if I could have paid a modest sum (say £50?) to have an active handicap for the last 9 months (lockdown aside!) I would have done so in a heartbeat.
		
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 I presume by active handicap you mean have a WHS handicap the term active has other connotations.


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2020)

Awesome... will lead to an increase in stableford points required to get in the prizes at Open Comps.   

Plenty won't take the micky, many will.


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## Twire (Dec 11, 2020)

That's good news for me. The way my current club keeps raising the subs year on year, I'm worried I won't be able to afford the membership in my retirement. This would give me the option to play some opens in the summer without a massive club subscription.


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## fundy (Dec 11, 2020)

IanM said:



			Awesome... will lead to an increase in stableford points required to get in the prizes at Open Comps.   

Plenty won't take the micky, many will.
		
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plenty at clubs currently dont the take the mick, many do


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2020)

fundy said:



			plenty at clubs currently dont the take the mick, many do 

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Point taken.....


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 11, 2020)

Terrible move, will lead to lots of members giving up their membership and clubs struggling to make up the shortfall. I can see a few clubs going under as a result of this.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 11, 2020)

The interesting thing will be the impact on green fees. If membership drops - which it will - there is little scope to increase membership fees further so the race to the bottom on green fees may be reversed.

You can play in a lot of opens from Golf Empire & mini tour events for a grand a year in the decent weather months.


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## Canary Kid (Dec 11, 2020)

I know that the current handicap system is not foolproof, but nomads with handicaps would be a licence for bandits!


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Terrible move, will lead to lots of members giving up their membership and clubs struggling to make up the shortfall. I can see a few clubs going under as a result of this.
		
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Lots?  Not so sure, some, certainly.  I have never had anyone say to me they only stay a member to keep their handicap.  You can do that at the local Muni for small change and not play there.  

Meanwhile on other thread, "How do I hack into my club's booking system?  It is so busy I cannot get a starting time!

I guess we'll see...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2020)

What clubs will do to combat it is increase green fees and open fees , plus ask for members of clubs only in Opens - if the clubs start to be affected


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 11, 2020)

In normal times, before a lot of people felt a need to become a member during Covid to get regular golf, we had a lot of transient members who would join, taking advantage of any offers, then go off to another local club for another offer. Maybe once everything opens fully again we'll see a lot of those that joined during Covid doing the same thing. I think it will impact membership for a degree and given I think our green fee is already underpriced compared to local courses I'd like to see the club value its product more and put prices up and make sure members are able to play at peak times.

That said though, I know a lot of people that have struggled financially and a few that have had to let their membership go. If this allows them access to courses and open comps (for those that want them) then I can see a benefit. I hope there is a cost as being able to simply get a handicap for nothing doesn't seem right


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## fundy (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What clubs will do to combat it is increase green fees and open fees , plus ask for members of clubs only in Opens - if the clubs start to be affected
		
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will they or will they reduce green fees to increase the amount they sell as many clubs have done recently? as always will boil down to the quality of their offering and what its really worth


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2020)

fundy said:



			will they or will they reduce green fees to increase the amount they sell as many clubs have done recently? as always will boil down to the quality of their offering and what its really worth
		
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All depends on how much revenue they lose if members leave.


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## fundy (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All depends on how much revenue they lose if members leave.
		
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of course (it really wont be much in most cases if their product is worth having) but blindly putting green fees up (especially if a bad offering) isnt going to plug the gap, if anything it will make it bigger as they sell very few green fees at the higher rate


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## Doh (Dec 11, 2020)

Most opens I know require a CHD number to be able to enter them so will nomads have to join the appropriate national governing administrator.


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## Jimmy_T (Dec 11, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I presume by active handicap you mean have a WHS handicap the term active has other connotations.
		
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Yes a WHS handicap, clearly with some safeguards around numbers of submitted rounds (I.e. a running average per month over a rolling 12 months or a minimum submission over a 12 month period to maintain)


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Doh said:



			Most opens I know require a CHD number to be able to enter them so will nomads have to join the appropriate national governing administrator.
		
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Run by EG


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2020)

I know.   Let's follow up encouraging non competition cards to count for handicap, by allowing handicaps subject to even less scrutiny than they are now.

It doesn't actually matter as serious stuff is off scratch... but it might reduce participation in Handicap Opens more than it does Club Membership.  

Clubs will allow entries from non members with Central handicaps, but will they be eligible for prizes?


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Along with club prizes you could do, best visiting club, best nomad.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 11, 2020)

Lest we get confused this is about the sport governing bodies making some more money. They have seen their income dropping due to reducing membership and this will be a nice little earner.


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## fundy (Dec 11, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Lest we get confused this is about the sport governing bodies making some more money. They have seen their income dropping due to reducing membership and this will be a nice little earner.
		
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Maybe in your opinion, maybe they are actually able to see that it will benefit a lot of golfers. Just because most club members are against it and worried about what it may mean doesnt mean its a bad thing or a money grab

If it was that surely it would be far easier just to put the affiliation fees up!


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## Jimmy_T (Dec 11, 2020)

IanM said:



			I know.   Let's follow up encouraging non competition cards to count for handicap, by allowing handicaps subject to even less scrutiny than they are now.

It doesn't actually matter as serious stuff is off scratch... but it might reduce participation in Handicap Opens more than it does Club Membership.  

Clubs will allow entries from non members with Central handicaps, but will they be eligible for prizes?
		
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A good point, but the reason I and many others play in opens is because you normally get breakfast, 18 holes and a meal afterwards for about the cost of a standard green fee. A value for money way of playing different golf courses by anyone’s estimation.

Strangely enough the only prize I’ve ever won in an open was for best nomad at The NCG Top 100 Open at Sherwood Forest this year (A series which allows nomads, although they can’t compete for the main prizes) - I won playing off what had been my official CONGU handicap 2 or 3 months previously and scoring 33 points! (Prize was a zoom laser rangefinder 😀) Ironically had I been allowed to play for the main prizes I wouldn’t have won anything!


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 11, 2020)

fundy said:



			Maybe in your opinion, maybe they are actually able to see that it will benefit a lot of golfers. Just because most club members are against it and worried about what it may mean doesnt mean its a bad thing or a money grab

If it was that surely it would be far easier just to put the affiliation fees up!
		
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Evidence from Scotland suggests it difficult to increase the fees to make up the shortfall. Better to spread the base.


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## rosecott (Dec 12, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Lest we get confused this is about the sport governing bodies making some more money. They have seen their income dropping due to reducing membership and this will be a nice little earner.
		
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I'm not sure why you are saying this. We have to take at face value that R&A has told the National Associations that they must make provision for nomad handicaps or the R&A would step in and do it.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 12, 2020)

IanM said:



			I know.   Let's follow up encouraging non competition cards to count for handicap, by allowing handicaps subject to even less scrutiny than they are now.

*It doesn't actually matter as serious stuff is off scratch*... but it might reduce participation in Handicap Opens more than it does Club Membership.  

Clubs will allow entries from non members with Central handicaps, but will they be eligible for prizes?
		
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True but the entry criteria is based on handicap index. With the scrapping of supplementary score restrictions it's now possible for a + handicap to be obtained without ever playing a competitive strokeplay event.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 12, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I'm not sure why you are saying this. We have to take at face value that R&A has told the National Associations that they must make provision for nomad handicaps or the R&A would step in and do it.
		
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England Golf rejected this concept 12 months or so ago. If they didn't believe it then, what's changed?

You are right the R&A have bounced them into this but if they had a fundamental objection they could refuse to participate. By not doing so they will see this as a way of providing a significant increase in income for only minor modification of the My England Golf app to allow score entry.

I'm not a luddite and understand things change - I'm just disappointed that the introduction of the WHS framework and decisions such as this one have fundamentally undermined the basic concept of our game which is the ability of people to play against each other on a level (ish) playing field. 

The direction of travel is to allow people to have a handicap based very loosely on their ability and more on their desired competitive position, which is a change and one we will have to get used to. 

I just fear for some club's existance and things like open tournaments which many people currently enjoy.


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 12, 2020)

This will certainly open up options for a small subsection of golfers.

It really only appeals to two groups. Firstly to those who have a club membership but only for the purpose of needing a handicap to enter competitions away from their home club. I doubt this is a large section of golfers so won’t hurt club membership hugely but will be quantifiable for sure.

The second are those who want to play in competitions but can’t afford a club membership.

I don’t see memberships ending in droves, I don’t see clubs going under because of this but I do foresee a challenge for clubs going forward, it is another option to compete with and they will have to react or a market will appear and someone else will make money from it I am sure.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 12, 2020)

Imo every golfer should get a handicap .. if they offer free insurance like they do for us that will get a lot of customers who use insurance etc 

My mate was very happy when I told him he plays all over England but doesn't have handicap doesn't want to play just one course all time .. spends more than a membership elsewhere for sure .. infact we compared once I play as much for half cost


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## rulefan (Dec 12, 2020)

rosecott said:



			We have to take at face value that R&A has told the National Associations that they must make provision for nomad handicaps or the R&A would step in and do it.
		
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I'm not sure how the R&A would enforce this if clubs in England (or elsewhere for that matter) found that is was affecting their income. If all clubs followed an EG lead and wouldn't allow nomads to play Qs on their course and not enter opens, how would nomads get handicaps. Would the R&A simply deny EG or a club the right to operate the WHS?

In practice IMO it will do very little for anyone and everyone.


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## Junior (Dec 12, 2020)

So in the poll thread there is a large majority of golfers who won't leave their clubs to take up nomad membership.  

My first thought was thatmembers would leave, and it was a bad thing, but now I'm thinking it might attract people to the game, generate revenue for clubs and also make clubs do more to entice and retain members.

As for the banditry, the people who do this already exist and are most likely members of municipal courses.  At least this way there may be an increased focus on how to tackle it.


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## HampshireHog (Dec 12, 2020)

I can’t see it will be viewed exactly the same as club handicap.  But I see it a positive move.

Great for those who play regularly and can use EG to track their performance and their mates to get a handicap.  Also great for those who join a club and it doesn’t require them to put in x number of cards to get a handicap that reflects their abilities.


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## Old Skier (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			Maybe in your opinion, maybe they are actually able to see that it will benefit a lot of golfers. Just because most club members are against it and worried about what it may mean doesnt mean its a bad thing or a money grab

If it was that surely it would be far easier just to put the affiliation fees up!
		
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They have been forced down this route by the R&A who would have taken it on if EG hadn’t.


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## rulefan (Dec 12, 2020)

Just a thought. If the R&A took it on they would have to acquire the specific software to collect scores and update the WHS directly from the player's app. This being on a phone, as presumably, non-club members would not have access to PC competition or general play score management facilities. This no doubt would have to be worldwide as the R&A could not discriminate by country. At present there are multiple nationally based WHS databases which don't yet communicate with each other. So each country would have to have its own app.
I appreciate that the US already seem to cope with this sort of situation but they only have one WHS database to interface with.

At present, clubs bear the costs of the WHS. Presumably, 'nomads' would pay the R&A directly.
If EG (and the other national unions) take it on, they could simply set up a "club" called 'The Nomadic Golf Club'. The subscriptions to which would pay for the extra staff member needed to act as Handicap Secretary for these hundreds (thousands?) of Members.

Incidentally, some of us will remember the EGU's (as was) Associate Member scheme that lasted all of a couple of years.
PD. Was that an 'average' handicap system?


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## howbow88 (Dec 12, 2020)

Just to clear up...

If I took this option, then would I just add my scorecards from playing with my mates (maybe to the app?) and my handicap index will be updated accordingly?


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

England Golf and the other “powers that be” often seem to forget that they rely a great deal on the clubs to grow the game.
The pandemic effect aside, clubs are struggling enough. Giving golfers another reason not to join a club won’t help. 
Fewer members means higher subscriptions which in turn leads to even fewer members.
The cost of playing golf has disproportionately fallen on the people who support it the most - club members. 
No members means no clubs and nowhere or certainly fewer courses for the nomads to play. Eventually golf returns to being an elitist sport again, where only the rich can afford a membership.
For the past 20 years golf has been devaluing it’s own product and practically begging members to become nomads. It’s working. This is just another step down this road.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

Sweep said:



			England Golf and the other “powers that be” often seem to forget that they rely a great deal on the clubs to grow the game.
The pandemic effect aside, clubs are struggling enough. Giving golfers another reason not to join a club won’t help.
Fewer members means higher subscriptions which in turn leads to even fewer members.
The cost of playing golf has disproportionately fallen on the people who support it the most - club members.
No members means no clubs and nowhere or certainly fewer courses for the nomads to play. Eventually golf returns to being an elitist sport again, where only the rich can afford a membership.
For the past 20 years golf has been devaluing it’s own product and practically begging members to become nomads. It’s working. This is just another step down this road.
		
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Time after time I read on here how members of clubs are paying a few quid a round as they play so much through the year. This thread has a lot of people saying it would be far too expensive not to be a member as the per cost round would shoot up greatly. How does that tally with "The cost of playing golf has disproportionately fallen on the people who support it the most - club members"? The majority of costs falls on the people who use a facility the most. Seems pretty standard to me. How is that disproportionate?

If membership levels do fall at clubs, then the business model needs revisiting, why would you put the prices up if you are losing members? And why does more nomads and fewer club members make it more elitist? does it just not represent the different wishes of the consumers? Not everyone wants to be tied to the same club with hefty membership fees for various reasons but for some reason the majority on this forum thinks that is wrong (albeit that is far more elitist than the current move towards more nomads)


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 12, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Terrible move, will lead to lots of members giving up their membership and clubs struggling to make up the shortfall. I can see a few clubs going under as a result of this.
		
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You are absolutely spot on !!!! My first thought on the matter was to stop paying for membership. I can play anywhere I want to. Book up on Golf Now for cheaper fees, also still get to play in Opens. And how many more will be thinking the same?


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## howbow88 (Dec 12, 2020)

Are that many people members at clubs purely so they have an official handicap? I can see how it could be a factor in joining or renewing membership, but I'm not sure it is much more than a small consideration for most golfers.


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2020)

I am always amazed at those who play in so many opens. Many near me have been cancelled the last few years, and those that do still run get balloted out at around a 4 handicap. I doubt there will be many 4 handicap nomads.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I am always amazed at those who play in so many opens. Many near me have been cancelled the last few years, and those that do still run get balloted out at around a 4 handicap. I doubt there will be many 4 handicap nomads.
		
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partly an area thing that though Murph, have a look on golf empire and compare say Herts to Lancs for both the number of opens on offer and the price of entry!


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			partly an area thing that though Murph, have a look on golf empire and compare say Herts to Lancs for both the number of opens on offer and the price of entry!
		
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I don't want to upset myself!


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			Time after time I read on here how members of clubs are paying a few quid a round as they play so much through the year. This thread has a lot of people saying it would be far too expensive not to be a member as the per cost round would shoot up greatly. How does that tally with "The cost of playing golf has disproportionately fallen on the people who support it the most - club members"? The majority of costs falls on the people who use a facility the most. Seems pretty standard to me. How is that disproportionate?

If membership levels do fall at clubs, then the business model needs revisiting, why would you put the prices up if you are losing members? And why does more nomads and fewer club members make it more elitist? does it just not represent the different wishes of the consumers? Not everyone wants to be tied to the same club with hefty membership fees for various reasons but for some reason the majority on this forum thinks that is wrong (albeit that is far more elitist than the current move towards more nomads)
		
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I will use an example I have outlined before to explain how the cost of golf has fallen disproportionately on members.
In 2012 one of the unions conducted a study, comparing the cost of golf in 1990 to 2012. They found that in 1990 the cost of a round of golf without being signed in by a member was £20. In 2012 it was £22. A 10% increase.
In 1990 the average cost of a membership in their region was £250. In 2012 it was £1,000. A 4 fold increase.
The fact is that paying £20 every now and again for a round of golf doesn’t sustain a course. A typical member will spend in excess of their membership again at their club in bar spend, comp fees, pro shop spend, social functions etc etc. A nomad simply doesn’t spend anything like as much on golf. I will be the first to argue that a membership is about so much more than playing golf but the clubs are selling it too cheaply to nomads and actually tempting their main customers - the members - away.
I agree, the business model does need revisiting. The only reason nomads are sold rounds so cheaply is because clubs are struggling, the course is there anyway so they may as well take the money. If most members actually looked at their club accounts they would be surprised at how little income is generated by nomads unless they are located in tourist areas. Societies are different, they bring in a lot. The odd two ball or four ball doesn’t.
The simple fact is that if you are losing members the cost is split between fewer people and the cost of membership has to rise. Another way is to raise the price of a round to nomads, which as I have demonstrated would be justified. It also has the added benefit of encouraging your members to stay.
Also, don’t take this forum, populated by ardent golfers, as a typical example of the situation. Most on here, myself included, get good value out of their membership because they play a lot. Many members will be borderline and if they actually bothered to do the sums they may well not rejoin.
I am not suggesting for a minute that nomads should have nowhere to play or be costed out of playing at clubs. Far from it. I am arguing that the way to ensure accessible golf is to keep the clubs healthy and memberships high in numbers. This move by EG does not help in this regard.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I will use an example I have outlined before to explain how the cost of golf has fallen disproportionately on members.
In 2012 one of the unions conducted a study, comparing the cost of golf in 1990 to 2012. They found that in 1990 the cost of a round of golf without being signed in by a member was £20. In 2012 it was £22. A 10% increase.
In 1990 the average cost of a membership in their region was £250. In 2012 it was £1,000. A 4 fold increase.
*The fact is that paying £20 every now and again for a round of golf doesn’t sustain a course. A typical member will spend in excess of their membership again at their club in bar spend, comp fees, pro shop spend, social functions etc etc. A nomad simply doesn’t spend anything like as much on golf.* I will be the first to argue that a membership is about so much more than playing golf but the clubs are selling it too cheaply to nomads and actually tempting their main customers - the members - away.
I agree, the business model does need revisiting. The only reason nomads are sold rounds so cheaply is because clubs are struggling, the course is there anyway so they may as well take the money. If most members actually looked at their club accounts they would be surprised at how little income is generated by nomads unless they are located in tourist areas. Societies are different, they bring in a lot. The odd two ball or four ball doesn’t.
The simple fact is that if you are losing members the cost is split between fewer people and the cost of membership has to rise. Another way is to raise the price of a round to nomads, which as I have demonstrated would be justified. It also has the added benefit of encouraging your members to stay.
*Also, don’t take this forum, populated by ardent golfers, as a typical example of the situation. Most on here, myself included, get good value out of their membership because they play a lot. Many members will be borderline and if they actually bothered to do the sums they may well not rejoin*.
I am not suggesting for a minute that nomads should have nowhere to play or be costed out of playing at clubs. Far from it.* I am arguing that the way to ensure accessible golf is to keep the clubs healthy and memberships high in numbers. This move by EG does not help in this regard*.
		
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They dont spend as much over the course of a year but will often spend more on a per round basis! Have seen the accounts of 3 clubs over the last 10 years or so, none are in tourist areas. 2 of the 3 have made substantial proportion of their income from green fees, to the point where the last club I was a member at is continually making it less and less attractive to be a member and more and more attractive to be a visitor (cancelling club matches, reducing number of comps, less member only tee times etc). Whys he doing this? Because hes running it as a business and having done the maths on a per round basis he gets more money from the nomads than he does from the members (including bar/food spend) and there is enough demand (and he doesnt give 2 hoots about the members)

The reason nomads are sold rounds so cheaply is there are too many poor standard golf clubs/courses, a large proportion built in the 1980/90s where tbh they are lucky to get £20 a round for what they offer. Many of these courses dont invest in improvements and now offer tired golf courses along with tired clubhouses. Not convinced you can exclude societies from the nomads category either, a large proportion of those who play society golf arent club members anywhere, yes some are but not a high proportion of them

Youre spot on saying this forum isnt representative at all, what is clear is there are a lot of club members who get exceptional value as they play a lot who struggle to see it from any other perspective (and yes this used to be me, slightly more balanced view having also been a non member at times now). What does seem apparent is those who play a lot and get great value dont want to see those who basically subsidise their fees by also being members, but barely play, may soon stop doing so (and again i think they overestimate how many will leave based just on a handicap, they havent done the sums before and this wont force them to do so)

Understand your last point but thats very much from a club members perspective, golf needs to be healthy to all not just old fashioned clubs and their members, and this move actually helps that. This is the crux for me, some of these clubs need to look forward as to how they should be positioning themselves rather looking back and trying to keep doing it the way they always have done, and that may not be the traditional membership led model


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			They dont spend as much over the course of a year but will often spend more on a per round basis! Have seen the accounts of 3 clubs over the last 10 years or so, none are in tourist areas. 2 of the 3 have made substantial proportion of their income from green fees, to the point where the last club I was a member at is continually making it less and less attractive to be a member and more and more attractive to be a visitor (cancelling club matches, reducing number of comps, less member only tee times etc). Whys he doing this? Because hes running it as a business and having done the maths on a per round basis he gets more money from the nomads than he does from the members (including bar/food spend) and there is enough demand (and he doesnt give 2 hoots about the members)

The reason nomads are sold rounds so cheaply is there are too many poor standard golf clubs/courses, a large proportion built in the 1980/90s where tbh they are lucky to get £20 a round for what they offer. Many of these courses dont invest in improvements and now offer tired golf courses along with tired clubhouses. Not convinced you can exclude societies from the nomads category either, a large proportion of those who play society golf arent club members anywhere, yes some are but not a high proportion of them

Youre spot on saying this forum isnt representative at all, what is clear is there are a lot of club members who get exceptional value as they play a lot who struggle to see it from any other perspective (and yes this used to be me, slightly more balanced view having also been a non member at times now). What does seem apparent is those who play a lot and get great value dont want to see those who basically subsidise their fees by also being members, but barely play, may soon stop doing so (and again i think they overestimate how many will leave based just on a handicap, they havent done the sums before and this wont force them to do so)

Understand your last point but thats very much from a club members perspective, golf needs to be healthy to all not just old fashioned clubs and their members, and this move actually helps that. This is the crux for me, some of these clubs need to look forward as to how they should be positioning themselves rather looking back and trying to keep doing it the way they always have done, and that may not be the traditional membership led model
		
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You may be confusing members clubs and proprietary clubs. A proprietor will be in its solely for the money and may not care about his members, but in any business it’s foolish not to care about your main customers.
These clubs will always be around, assuming the demand is there which I am sure it will be. However, the vast majority are members clubs, owned by the members. Not for profit. These are the clubs growing golf. These are the clubs EG and the R&A rely on. 
I suppose it depends on whether you want the future to be courses run for profit or clubs run for members.
The reason many clubs are run down is that they are not making the money to reinvest. It’s probably a fair assumption that many will be gone in 10 years.
I don’t think it’s about losing members who subsidise more active members who play more. That ship has sailed. Back in the day we actually had members who never played, they just liked being a member of a great club. Now, the course has never been busier but the membership is smaller.
I think it is genuinely about keeping the club viable. Clubs closing helps no-one.
Whilst I doubt many will give up their membership because of this move by EG alone, it is undoubtedly another reason removed for joining a club in the first place. And that cannot be good for the game. When people become members they make new friends with golf being their common interest. As a result they play more, bring more people in, the game grows.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

Sweep said:



			You may be confusing members clubs and proprietary clubs. A proprietor will be in its solely for the money and may not care about his members, but in any business it’s foolish not to care about your main customers.
These clubs will always be around, assuming the demand is there which I am sure it will be. However, the vast majority are members clubs, owned by the members. Not for profit. These are the clubs growing golf. These are the clubs EG and the R&A rely on.
I suppose it depends on whether you want the future to be courses run for profit or clubs run for members.
The reason many clubs are run down is that they are not making the money to reinvest. It’s probably a fair assumption that many will be gone in 10 years.
I don’t think it’s about losing members who subsidise more active members who play more. That ship has sailed. Back in the day we actually had members who never played, they just liked being a member of a great club. Now, the course has never been busier but the membership is smaller.
I think it is genuinely about keeping the club viable. Clubs closing helps no-one.
Whilst I doubt many will give up their membership because of this move by EG alone, it is undoubtedly another reason removed for joining a club in the first place. And that cannot be good for the game. When people become members they make new friends with golf being their common interest. As a result they play more, bring more people in, the game grows.
		
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Not confusing them at all, I was commenting on all golf clubs, as they are all competing in the same marketplace for the same customers and viewing proprietary clubs as different (and not as important as member clubs) will only continue to hold back the industry, the clubs and their offerings. To most golfers they dont care whether its a members club or a proprietary club but once again on this forum the members club is better/more important than a proprietary club viewpoint arises. This attitude is a massive part of golfs problem imo. There are some great proprietary clubs and some awful ones, just as there are great and awful members clubs


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 12, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Are that many people members at clubs purely so they have an official handicap? I can see how it could be a factor in joining or renewing membership, but I'm not sure it is much more than a small consideration for most golfers.
		
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Playing club competitions is part of the reason I'm a member and so by doing so my handicap was always active under CONGU. Add in club matches, a great bunch of guys to play roll ups, good facilities and always someone up there to wander up and have a social beer or three and I'm paying for a package, not just one facet


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			Not confusing them at all, I was commenting on all golf clubs, as they are all competing in the same marketplace for the same customers and viewing proprietary clubs as different (and not as important as member clubs) will only continue to hold back the industry, the clubs and their offerings. To most golfers they dont care whether its a members club or a proprietary club but once again on this forum the members club is better/more important than a proprietary club viewpoint arises. This attitude is a massive part of golfs problem imo. There are some great proprietary clubs and some awful ones, just as there are great and awful members clubs
		
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There is a big difference between a proprietary club and a members club. As you have pointed out already, a members club looks after it members (or should), a proprietary club’s first duty is to profit. Imagine being a member of a members club whose team match was cancelled for visitors as in the example you gave.
I don’t think anyone is saying proprietary clubs aren’t as important. There are lots of great proprietary clubs. Majors are played on some. They have a different model. I don’t see how either model is holding the industry back. But, neither will be helped and may well be harmed by this move (assuming proprietary clubs have members and are not simply pay to play).
One thing about members is, as long as they rejoin it’s guaranteed income. In my experience of running a club that makes your job a lot easier. Relying on nomads gives you no such guarantees.
Whilst membership may not be for everyone, like it or not, the sport needs members and as many as it can get. They support clubs to grow the game, put a lot of money into the sport and provide jobs for those who earn their living from it. They play regularly and commit to the sport.
 This isn’t going to help get more members.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

Sweep said:



			There is a big difference between a proprietary club and a members club. As you have pointed out already, a members club looks after it members (or should), a proprietary club’s first duty is to profit. Imagine being a member of a members club whose team match was cancelled for visitors as in the example you gave.
I don’t think anyone is saying proprietary clubs aren’t as important. There are lots of great proprietary clubs. Majors are played on some. They have a different model. I don’t see how either model is holding the industry back. But, neither will be helped and may well be harmed by this move (assuming proprietary clubs have members and are not simply pay to play).
One thing about members is, as long as they rejoin it’s guaranteed income. In my experience of running a club that makes your job a lot easier. Relying on nomads gives you no such guarantees.
Whilst membership may not be for everyone, like it or not, the sport needs members and as many as it can get. They support clubs to grow the game, put a lot of money into the sport and provide jobs for those who earn their living from it. They play regularly and commit to the sport.
This isn’t going to help get more members.
		
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Understand your point, but its wholly from a member clubs perspective and not from both the clubs and the individual golfers perspective, hence I expect why I see this as a good, long overdue move whereas you dont think it should happen at all


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

fundy said:



			Understand your point, but its wholly from a member clubs perspective and not from both the clubs and the individual golfers perspective, hence I expect why I see this as a good, long overdue move whereas you dont think it should happen at all
		
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You are right. I don’t think it should happen for the reasons I have stated. Rightly or wrongly I also don’t think such handicaps will be altogether trusted. Clubs are excellent at regulating handicaps and peer pressure within a club keeps things honest. 
EG seem to have done a great job of making the handicap system as bandit proof as possible and now seem to be undoing some of that by making opens a pot hunters fertile ground again. I can see a lot of clubs only allowing entrants from club members or having a nomads prize. We will see.


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## rulefan (Dec 12, 2020)

Of course it was the R&A that caused the problem in the first place. Twenty/thirty years ago they were saying there were far too few golf courses in the UK. That resulted in a massive building boom. The result - an over supply of golf courses and a reduction of income per club. Paying members are now spread too thinly. Those who don't want a club atmosphere can pick and choose and rarely experience the buzz of true competitive golf. The R&A seem to think that having a handicap will encourage them to play competitive golf. 
I suspect most clubs will not be too happy about giving them the facility without a high cash recompense.


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## USER1999 (Dec 12, 2020)

Is a handicap obtained 'not under the heat of battle' a real handicap? Playing in the monthly medal, name in the book, off the tomb stones, knowing this is the one. That's your handicap.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 13, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Is a handicap obtained 'not under the heat of battle' a real handicap? Playing in the monthly medal, name in the book, off the tomb stones, knowing this is the one. That's your handicap.
		
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Sadly no longer - any scores will now suffice with minimal (if any) verification.

I am sitting in my lounge looking at the rain as today's comp has been cancelled. I register to play a general play round and after lunch I enter a score never having left my house. I can even add a markers name (a neighbour would do). I submit the score and tomorrow morning my handicap has been updated.

This is true for club members now and will be true for nomadic members going forward i'm sure. A great pity that a fundamental of our sport is being dismantled.


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Sadly no longer - any scores will now suffice with minimal (if any) verification.

I am sitting in my lounge looking at the rain as today's comp has been cancelled. I register to play a general play round and after lunch I enter a score never having left my house. I can even add a markers name (a neighbour would do). I submit the score and tomorrow morning my handicap has been updated.

This is true for club members now and will be true for nomadic members going forward i'm sure. A great pity that a fundamental of our sport is being dismantled.
		
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If that’s the case - and I have no reason to doubt what you say - then that seriously needs addressing.


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2020)

It would be easy enough for any club to negate any negative impact on their open competitions they feel may be coming their way via this new development. All they need to do is change the entry criteria for their open comps to be must have a handicap AND must be a member of a golf club, so no nomads with new WHS handicaps in their open comps if they don't want them.


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## memememe (Dec 13, 2020)

I wonder if the R&A will continue to think this is a good idea if a significant number of nomads find themesleves with handicaps of  +3 and enter the Amateur Championship or the Open without ever having played in a competition round in their life.

That could make for some interesting Regional Open Qualifying Rounds.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			In my experience this is not true.
I've put in 3 supplementaries, 1 last weekend, one yesterday and one today.
The cards from yesterday and today, although I've input the scores and uploaded the card on IG, apparently don't get input to WHS until verified by the club office on Monday.
Each card needs to be countersigned by a playing partner, the same as before. I don't know if this is the specific to IG and/or my club, but it's not just a case of inputting a score and watching your handicap change.
		
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As Handicap Chairman I did exactly what I said using Club V1. There is no need in the rules or the software for a physical card and no accept / reject option for an administrator anymore (just a delete which I did). Your club has a solid policy (as does ours) but the Covid Rules make countersigning cards very difficult and players are encouragrd to enter scores online.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 13, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It would be easy enough for any club to negate any negative impact on their open competitions they feel may be coming their way via this new development. All they need to do is change the entry criteria for their open comps to be must have a handicap AND must be a member of a golf club, so no nomads with new WHS handicaps in their open comps if they don't want them.
		
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The lawyers will love that one.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 13, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The lawyers will love that one.
		
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What do you mean??


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The lawyers will love that one.
		
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What lawyers? Clubs are perfectly entitled to set such entry criteria, nothing actionable for the nomads.


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## Smiffy (Dec 14, 2020)

I await news of a record number of entries for the reawakened giant that was the Trilby Tour.......


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 14, 2020)

ger147 said:



			What lawyers? Clubs are perfectly entitled to set such entry criteria, nothing actionable for the nomads.
		
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For a members club possibly but you are potentially discriminating against someone who has a valid England Golf handicap trying to enter an open competition. What would your criteria be for excluding them? Not handicap limits.

So if we take this to a logical conclusion - how about excluding members of municiple clubs, or members who are at pay and play clubs, or members of clubs owned by Donald Trump, or ............ 

You are basically excluding them based on your view they don't have a valid handicap which I think is challengable.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For a members club possibly but you are potentially discriminating against someone who has a valid England Golf handicap trying to enter an open competition. What would your criteria be for excluding them? Not handicap limits.

So if we take this to a logical conclusion - how about excluding members of municiple clubs, or members who are at pay and play clubs, or members of clubs owned by Donald Trump, or ............ 

You are basically excluding them based on your view they don't have a valid handicap which I think is challengable.
		
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If you are suggesting challenging such a practise under equality legislation,  non golf club membership is not a protected characteristic.  Guess you could try challenging on the basis that one of the protected characteristics is over represented by non golf club member golfers,  good luck.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For a members club possibly but you are potentially discriminating against someone who has a valid England Golf handicap trying to enter an open competition. What would your criteria be for excluding them? Not handicap limits.

So if we take this to a logical conclusion - how about excluding members of municiple clubs, or members who are at pay and play clubs, or members of clubs owned by Donald Trump, or ............

You are basically excluding them based on your view they don't have a valid handicap which I think is challengable.
		
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Golf clubs are already allowed to have single sex competitions, competitions based on age and even on how high or low your handicap is. So many people with valid handicaps can already be excluded for many many reasons from entering particular open competitions, so there is no reason why excluding people who are not a member of a golf club will suddenly see golf clubs in the dock.

Hence no work for any lawyers. 👍🏻


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## hovis (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For a members club possibly but you are potentially discriminating against someone who has a valid England Golf handicap trying to enter an open competition. What would your criteria be for excluding them? Not handicap limits.

So if we take this to a logical conclusion - how about excluding members of municiple clubs, or members who are at pay and play clubs, or members of clubs owned by Donald Trump, or ............

You are basically excluding them based on your view they don't have a valid handicap which I think is challengable.
		
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So you think someone is going to make a legal challenge because they've been told they can't play an open competition?


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			So you think someone is going to make a legal challenge because they've been told they can't play an open competition?
		
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If it's a business based club and the player holds a valid EG Handicap I suspect they may do yes. There have been lots of legal challenges about businesses refusing to deal with people based on discrimination so there could well be a case to be made.

Would England Golf prohibit a +6 handicap player entering the amateur championship or representing England because their handicap was held on their scheme and they were not a member of a club?


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## hovis (Dec 14, 2020)

Your doing waaaaaaay too deep into this.  It's a game of golf.  I would be amazed if a golfer walks into a solicitors office and says "a golf club won't let me play in a competition".     That's before the judge pisses himself laughing when it gets to his desk

As for a +6 Golfer.....his playing in a scrach comp so no foul. You can Let anyone play in those. The best golfer wins.   Not some bandito trying to win a trip to Spain with his "28“ handicap


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			Your doing waaaaaaay too deep into this.  It's a game of golf.  I would be amazed if a golfer walks into a solicitors office and says "a golf club won't let me play in a competition".     That's before the judge pisses himself laughing when it gets to his desk
		
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Think most golfers just want to be able to compare themselves to their mates who have handicaps


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			If it's a business based club and the player holds a valid EG Handicap I suspect they may do yes. There have been lots of legal challenges about businesses refusing to deal with people based on discrimination so there could well be a case to be made.

Would England Golf prohibit a +6 handicap player entering the amateur championship or representing England because their handicap was held on their scheme and they were not a member of a club?
		
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Please explain how this would be discrimination in the eyes of the law.


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## rulefan (Dec 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Would England Golf prohibit a +6 handicap player entering the amateur championship or representing England because their handicap was held on their scheme and they were not a member of a club?
		
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Clubs don't run the Amateur Championship.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Along with club prizes you could do, best visiting club, best nomad.
		
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We did something similar when nomads played in our work's golf away days.  We had a  special visitors prize but kept their entry fees separate and split it between their 1st 3 places.
We were caught out quite a few times with bandits declaring inflated handicaps..


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Clubs don't run the Amateur Championship.
		
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I know - my point was would the R&A or EG for their national event refuse entry to a non club member with an EG handicap? If not would this set a precident?


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## Crow (Dec 15, 2020)

Or clubs could just have categories within the comp.
Club member handicap holders category
Nomad handicap holders category

Everyone plays together, prize value could be based upon the size of entry for each category.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 15, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Please explain how this would be discrimination in the eyes of the law.
		
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I'm sorry I can't - I'm not a lawyer.

However, having worked in business for many years I am sensitive to showing discrimination to people based on criteria that seem to be unfair. If EG are going to implement this scheme (which it appears they are) these players will pay to have an official handicap in the same way club members do with their affiliation fees. The handicap would be calculate in exactly the same way and applied in the same way for all players. Thus I can't understand why you would exclude one group from playing in an event run by a commercial organisation based on their membership of a golf club.

There are clearly more qualified people than me in this discussion so I guess I must accept my fears are unfounded and clubs will be able to do as they wish regarding open events.


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## rulefan (Dec 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I know - my point was would the R&A or EG for their national event refuse entry to a non club member with an EG handicap? If not would this set a precident?
		
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I'm not sure how a nomad would get an elite handicap if clubs didn't provide the facilities to enter their competitions but in the unlikely event, I can't see the R&A/EG refusing


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure how a nomad would get an elite handicap if clubs didn't provide the facilities to enter their competitions but in the unlikely event, I can't see the R&A/EG refusing
		
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As has been covered elsewhere in this forum the ability to submit General Play scores is now open to Elite Golfers.


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## howbow88 (Dec 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm sorry I can't - I'm not a lawyer.

However, having worked in business for many years I am sensitive to showing discrimination to people based on criteria that seem to be unfair. If EG are going to implement this scheme (which it appears they are) these players will pay to have an official handicap in the same way club members do with their affiliation fees. The handicap would be calculate in exactly the same way and applied in the same way for all players. Thus I can't understand why you would exclude one group from playing in an event run by a commercial organisation based on their membership of a golf club.

There are clearly more qualified people than me in this discussion so I guess I must accept my fears are unfounded and clubs will be able to do as they wish regarding open events.
		
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There are rules in the UK around discrimination, but these are based around racism, sexism, disability, ageism, etc. Saying 'you must hold an official handicap AND be a club member' for an open event might possibly be elitism, but I don't think anyone would have a legal case for discrimination. 

Personally though, I don't think golf clubs would turn down Nomads with official handicaps if they wanted to enter an open event, for obvious reasons... £££


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## rulefan (Dec 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			As has been covered elsewhere in this forum the ability to submit General Play scores is now open to Elite Golfers.
		
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Yes, I think it was me who pointed it out. 

But clubs may still refuse these players access to their courses and more particularly, their ability to preregister.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Interesting zoom with EG & County about Nomads at 1030 hrs


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting zoom with EG & County about Nomads at 1030 hrs
		
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able to share any interesting bits?


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## 2blue (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting zoom with EG & County about Nomads at 1030 hrs
		
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So how will they do it?


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Couple of quick notes

Its always been the R&A strategy to accommodate Independent Golfers,
National bodies were given the chance to control it themselves or the R&A would
Ireland, Wales and Scotland had already decided that they would be the controlling body so Unions in England voted on whether EG should take it on, the vote was 61-1 in favor. Correspondence  has been sent out to all clubs in December.
EG will set up the handicap platform operating the WHS and will be improving the MyEng golf app to accommodate it.
EG states it will be up to individual clubs as to whether Independent Golfers will be able to enter comps and they may see it as an opportunity to run Independent Golfer specific comps.

EG will get a fee from anyone that wishes to join which will be used to run the necessary admin.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Couple of quick notes

Its always been the R&A strategy to accommodate Independent Golfers,
National bodies were given the chance to control it themselves or the R&A would
Ireland, Wales and Scotland had already decided that they would be the controlling body so Unions in England voted on whether EG should take it on, the vote was 61-1 in favor. Correspondence  has been sent out to all clubs in December.
EG will set up the handicap platform operating the WHS and will be improving the MyEng golf app to accommodate it.
EG states it will be up to individual clubs as to whether Independent Golfers will be able to enter comps and they may see it as an opportunity to run Independent Golfer specific comps.

EG will get a fee from anyone that wishes to join which will be used to run the necessary admin.
		
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Thanks for this, be interesting to see what the admin charge is. Definitely be a shame if clubs are allowed to treat these as 2nd class handicaps as it seems plenty on here want them to and EG are going to allow.


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## KenL (Jan 13, 2021)

I wonder what this will do to club member numbers and retention.
With the current situation, this could be bad timing for clubs.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			Thanks for this, be interesting to see what the admin charge is. Definitely be a shame if clubs are allowed to treat these as 2nd class handicaps as it seems plenty on here want them to and EG are going to allow.
		
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Why should clubs allow them do you think?

Whats in it for a club if they have no members and they are just accommodating a once a year nomadic golfer in an open comp?

For me its not promoting membership at all.


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## IanM (Jan 13, 2021)

R&A strategy is sensible, get the admin right, and no problem.



Lincoln Quaker said:



			Why should clubs allow them do you think?  Whats in it for a club if they have no members and they are just accommodating a once a year nomadic golfer in an open comp?
		
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Opens are already "balloting" out players based on handicap level.  Ok - in scratch Opens its been that way for years.  If you run an open that isn't "selling out" you'll be glad of the extra bodies.  If it is one that sells out every year, will clubs give priority to "members?"  They might. 

The "Fun" will happen after this has run for a little while.  If lots of "nomads" cry foul if they are getting bounced from Opens, it will be interesting to see what happens.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			I wonder what this will do to club member numbers and retention.
With the current situation, this could be bad timing for clubs.
		
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I think EG realise this but were really left with little option.

As to treating Independent Golfers as 2nd class citizen that will be up to clubs to decide as they will have to balance it against where there may be a marketing opportunity and not reducing the benefit for being a member.


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## Junior (Jan 13, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Why should clubs allow them do you think?

Whats in it for a club if they have no members and they are just accommodating a once a year nomadic golfer in an open comp?

For me its not promoting membership at all.
		
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Could clubs define in their rules for open competitions that those who wish to play must have an active handicap and be a member of a club also ? 

I agree lots of clubs will lose members.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Junior said:



			Could clubs define in their rules for open competitions that those who wish to play must have an active handicap and be a member of a club also ?

I agree lots of clubs will lose members.
		
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No such thing as an “active” handicap anymore a d clubs can decide who and what the criteria is for entry.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Why should clubs allow them do you think?

Whats in it for a club if they have no members and they are just accommodating a once a year nomadic golfer in an open comp?

For me its not promoting membership at all.
		
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Been posted on this forum several times Glynn, you really want me to post it all again? (I know i am on the other side of the fence to 95% of this forum on this)

Do you really think everyone is going to leave Woodhall Spa because they can get a cheap handicap from EG leaving them with no members?

Its not about promoting membership, why should handicaps be about promoting memberships and the preserve of members only clubs?


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## Freewaytom (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			Been posted on this forum several times Glynn, you really want me to post it all again? (I know i am on the other side of the fence to 95% of this forum on this)

Do you really think everyone is going to leave Woodhall Spa because they can get a cheap handicap from EG leaving them with no members?

Its not about promoting membership, why should handicaps be about promoting memberships and the preserve of members only clubs?
		
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exactly - do people really think that people hold memberships at hundreds of £££ per year just to have an official handicap?


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## Imurg (Jan 13, 2021)

Surely this is only going to benefit those who's sole reason for being a member of a club is to get a handicap so they can play Opens..
That has to be a pretty small percentage bearing in mind they're going to be paying visitor fees when not playing Opens which could end up costing them a whole lot more.
Small clubs that have a cheap membership + green fee model will be the ones to lose out.


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## Imurg (Jan 13, 2021)

Freewaytom said:



			exactly - do people really think that people hold memberships at hundreds of £££ per year just to have an official handicap?
		
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At small clubs that have a cheap membership plus green fee model - yes, there will be some.
There may well be some at more expensive clubs too but I suspect that percentage is even smaller.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			Been posted on this forum several times Glynn, you really want me to post it all again? (I know i am on the other side of the fence to 95% of this forum on this)

Do you really think everyone is going to leave Woodhall Spa because they can get a cheap handicap from EG leaving them with no members?

Its not about promoting membership, why should handicaps be about promoting memberships and the preserve of members only clubs?
		
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I am not worried about Woodhall Spa, the top clubs will be OK, its the smaller clubs that I fear for.

I understand the need for a nomadic handicap, I just dont agree with it.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I am not worried about Woodhall Spa, the top clubs will be OK, its the smaller clubs that I fear for.

I understand the need for a nomadic handicap, I just dont agree with it.
		
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Fair enough, all allowed an opinion and as i say I know most on here disagree with me (nothing new there I hear you say)


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

The cheap clubs + green fee model clubs will suffer. 

Good for the consumer. They made money doing very little, because for there was no other option.


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## KenL (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I think EG realise this but were really left with little option.

As to treating Independent Golfers as 2nd class citizen that will be up to clubs to decide as they will have to balance it against where there may be a marketing opportunity and not reducing the benefit for being a member.
		
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Is this just an EG thing or are other authorities like SG doing this I wonder?


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## Lincoln Quaker (Jan 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			Is this just an EG thing or are other authorities like SG doing this I wonder?
		
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They are all doing it.


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## howbow88 (Jan 13, 2021)

How do 'nomads' update their handicaps? Via the app? If so, can't they just put in whatever score they want?


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## KenL (Jan 13, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			How do 'nomads' update their handicaps? Via the app? If so, can't they just put in whatever score they want?
		
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We can all do that.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			Is this just an EG thing or are other authorities like SG doing this I wonder?
		
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SG took up the option before EG


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			How do 'nomads' update their handicaps? Via the app? If so, can't they just put in whatever score they want?
		
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EG are working on several “safety “ features, GPS location, time delays before score entry, verification by outside source etc, an ongoing project.
Remember, it was just a meeting, I no nothing more than what was outlined in meeting, I have not had sight of the letter sent to clubs.


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## moogie (Jan 13, 2021)

Surely if there's a market for this
Then clubs only have themselves to blame
For not being forward thinking enough to dream up some form of membership that may have drawn this particular type of player into a new type of membership category that made it attractive enough to attach themself to a club

Golf clubs are notoriously averse to change and moving with the times 
This possibly being another case in question


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Not really.
We have to pre-register either on the App, which obviously has time data, or in the shop/office prior to playing.
We then have to either
A.  return a completed scorecard signed by player and "marker" (witness is more exact) or,
B.  upload score, electronically sign to say it's true AND upload scorecard signed by player and marker/witness.

Option B is exactly the same as comps have been running since June.

*There is no question of "putting in any score you want" if it's run properly*.
		
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There doesnt have to be for nomads handicaps either, the risk of both should be almost exactly the same


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

Freewaytom said:



			exactly - do people really think that people hold memberships at hundreds of £££ per year just to have an official handicap?
		
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Well, I do.  I can't play in open comps and work competitions without one.


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## D-S (Jan 13, 2021)

Here in the South West I know of one Club that charges £1 per annum membership plus the County and EG affiliation fees. For that you get a handicap, entry to their competitions (on paying a green fee), the County Card which gives you discounted golf nationwide, insurance from EG etc.. There is also one in my county that charges £36 per annum including county and EG affiliation fees. Neither of these Clubs, which anyone can join from anywhere in the UK, are overwhelmed by nomadic golfers despite the attractiveness of the offering.This new EG scheme will have to go some to beat these deals and I am sure there are equivalent ones elsewhere in the country.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Here in the South West I know of one Club that charges £1 per annum membership plus the County and EG affiliation fees. For that you get a handicap, entry to their competitions (on paying a green fee), the County Card which gives you discounted golf nationwide, insurance from EG etc.. There is also one in my county that charges £36 per annum including county and EG affiliation fees. Neither of these Clubs, which anyone can join from anywhere in the UK, are overwhelmed by nomadic golfers despite the attractiveness of the offering.This new EG scheme will have to go some to beat these deals and I am sure there are equivalent ones elsewhere in the country.
		
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Offering county cards at those prices is IMO not on and I would love to know the clubs.


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## apj0524 (Jan 13, 2021)

IanM said:



			R&A strategy is sensible, *get the admin right*, and no problem.



Opens are already "balloting" out players based on handicap level.  Ok - in scratch Opens its been that way for years.  If you run an open that isn't "selling out" you'll be glad of the extra bodies.  If it is one that sells out every year, will clubs give priority to "members?"  They might.

The "Fun" will happen after this has run for a little while.  If lots of "nomads" cry foul if they are getting bounced from Opens, it will be interesting to see what happens.
		
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I have little confidence they can handle this professionally based on my experience, I had an EG account before WHS switch 2nd week of November I could not log to date that can not solve the issue, very busy I'm told, doing what I ask there's no golf, the problem is Dot.Golf in NZ and there is a time difference, and so it goes on.  Shambolic


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## IanM (Jan 13, 2021)

hovis said:



			Well, I do.  I can't play in open comps and work competitions without one.
		
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How often do you play your home club?


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## D-S (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Offering county cards at those prices is IMO not on and I would love to know the clubs.
		
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It is not a secret it is on their websites - OrchardLeigh GC in Somerset and Westonbirt GC in Gloucestershir.


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

IanM said:



			How often do you play your home club?
		
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Twice a week now to ensure I get my moneys worth.


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## IanM (Jan 13, 2021)

Freewaytom said:



			exactly - do people really think that people hold memberships at hundreds of £££ per year just to have an official handicap?
		
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hovis said:



			Well, I do.  I can't play in open comps and work competitions without one.
		
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hovis said:



			Twice a week now to ensure I get my moneys worth.
		
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...indeed, so it isnt just about access to Opens and Other comps...


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

The sole reason I am a member of my club is to have an official handicap. I'd be much happier to frequent teetimes.com or play as a guest.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Anyone that thinks that the membership fee is just about getting a handicap doesn't understand what goes into running a club.


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## KenL (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Not really.
We have to pre-register either on the App, which obviously has time data, or in the shop/office prior to playing.
We then have to either
A.  return a completed scorecard signed by player and "marker" (witness is more exact) or,
B.  upload score, electronically sign to say it's true AND upload scorecard signed by player and marker/witness.

Option B is exactly the same as comps have been running since June.

There is no question of "putting in any score you want" if it's run properly.
		
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We need a score verified by another person who played with you.
But, nothing to stop people cheating if they have a mind to do that.

We are not to swap scorecards as that is considered a covid risk.


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone that thinks that the membership fee is just about getting a handicap doesn't understand what goes into running a club.
		
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That doesn't make sense.  Who joins a club thinking that their £1200 subs is spent on obtaining a handicap?


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## IanM (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone that thinks that the membership fee is just about getting a handicap doesn't understand what goes into running a club.
		
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....it's probably don't care!  

Look.  Anything that makes golf more accessible is a good thing.  Any issues it causes will come out in the wash! (eventually!)


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## howbow88 (Jan 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			We can all do that.
		
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Where? The MyEG app is super basic, or at least my Android one is. Is entering scores coming at some point in an update?


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Where? The MyEG app is super basic, or at least my Android one is. Is entering scores coming at some point in an update?
		
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Are you not able to do it through your ISV app


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## howbow88 (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			We input the scores and upload the card photo via the Intelligent Golf App.
		
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Ah right. We have been uploading through Master Scoreboard, but only when we have been playing competitions, and these scores were double checked by our handicap secretary before being 'confirmed'. We can't load up scores outside of our organised comps... That is my point/question - where do Nomads upload scores, and how does the app know that they're legit? It seems very trust based to me...


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Ah right. We have been uploading through Master Scoreboard, but only when we have been playing competitions, and these scores were double checked by our handicap secretary before being 'confirmed'. We can't load up scores outside of our organised comps... That is my point/question - where do Nomads upload scores, and how does the app know that they're legit? It seems very trust based to me...
		
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At the moment they don't until EG update there app . The trust issue is no different than what club members are expected to be.


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## rosecott (Jan 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Here in the South West I know of one Club that charges £1 per annum membership plus the County and EG affiliation fees. For that you get a handicap, entry to their competitions (on paying a green fee), the County Card which gives you discounted golf nationwide, insurance from EG etc.. There is also one in my county that charges £36 per annum including county and EG affiliation fees. Neither of these Clubs, which anyone can join from anywhere in the UK, are overwhelmed by nomadic golfers despite the attractiveness of the offering.This new EG scheme will have to go some to beat these deals and I am sure there are equivalent ones elsewhere in the country.
		
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I'm a bit surprised that no action was taken by EG/County Union. CONGU do not seem to have published their view since their manual was superseded by WHS, but it was pretty clear in their last issue:

Dec.8(a) Status of ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Handicap’ (or the like) categories of golf club membership in the context of a CONGU® Definition of a Member. 

It is a matter for individual golf clubs to determine the nature of their categories of membership. However, forms or categories of membership such as ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Membership’ satisfy neither the spirit nor intent of the definition of a ‘Member’ as contained in the CONGU UHS and do not qualify for the allotment of a CONGU ® Handicap.


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## D-S (Jan 13, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I'm a bit surprised that no action was taken by EG/County Union. CONGU do not seem to have published their view since their manual was superseded by WHS, but it was pretty clear in their last issue:

Dec.8(a) Status of ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Handicap’ (or the like) categories of golf club membership in the context of a CONGU® Definition of a Member.

It is a matter for individual golf clubs to determine the nature of their categories of membership. However, forms or categories of membership such as ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Membership’ satisfy neither the spirit nor intent of the definition of a ‘Member’ as contained in the CONGU UHS and do not qualify for the allotment of a CONGU ® Handicap.
		
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From one of the Clubs‘ websites
”
*Club Membership: *This allows you to (i) Retain a *Golf Handicap* in accordance with CONGU the national affiliated body, (ii) *Enter Club competitions* and play in teams for fixtures against other Clubs, and (iii) Receive a free *County Card* which offers discounts for golf throughout England. However, you will still need to pay a daily green fee rate unless you sign up for Course Membership.
ClubMembership Fees are as follows:
Mens Fee:    £ 35.50
Ladies Fee:   £ 33.50”

Would seem a far better prospect than what is being proposed by EG for the nomadic golfer if you want a handicap. It has the added benefit for the County Union of them getting their full affiliation fee from the member.


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## howbow88 (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			At the moment they don't until EG update there app . The trust issue is no different than what club members are expected to be.
		
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Thanks for clarifying regarding the app  I can't agree with you regarding 'trust' though... A member of a club needs a signed scorecard, or perhaps now with covid, a 'witnessed' round of golf for it to qualify, right? So if you wanted to put in bogus scores, you would at least need an accomplice who is a member at your club. If you're a nomad, surely you can put in whatever score you want on the app and don't need anyone else there to sign/witness it. 

The point I'm getting at is that if your committee found that you and your mate were putting in bogus scores, you could find yourself in a bit of trouble. For a nomad, I don't see how anyone could realistically check if they were putting in dodgy scores? 

These are honest question by the way. I'm not trying to nitpick, but more interested in how this will all work.


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## Smiffy (Jan 14, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Thanks for clarifying regarding the app  I can't agree with you regarding 'trust' though... A member of a club needs a signed scorecard, or perhaps now with covid, a 'witnessed' round of golf for it to qualify, right? So if you wanted to put in bogus scores, you would at least need an accomplice who is a member at your club. If you're a nomad, surely you can put in whatever score you want on the app and don't need anyone else there to sign/witness it.

The point I'm getting at is that if your committee found that you and your mate were putting in bogus scores, you could find yourself in a bit of trouble. For a nomad, I don't see how anyone could realistically check if they were putting in dodgy scores?

These are honest question by the way. I'm not trying to nitpick, but more interested in how this will all work.
		
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I'm wondering the same thing. Sure, there are a few dishonest club members, (I've played with a few in the past, so know they exist), but I personally think it's a lot harder to "manipulate" the current system than it would be for a few "lads" who aren't members anywhere and are just interested in pot hunting to pull a few fast ones.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I'm a bit surprised that no action was taken by EG/County Union. CONGU do not seem to have published their view since their manual was superseded by WHS, but it was pretty clear in their last issue:

Dec.8(a) Status of ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Handicap’ (or the like) categories of golf club membership in the context of a CONGU® Definition of a Member. 

It is a matter for individual golf clubs to determine the nature of their categories of membership. However, forms or categories of membership such as ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Membership’ satisfy neither the spirit nor intent of the definition of a ‘Member’ as contained in the CONGU UHS and do not qualify for the allotment of a CONGU ® Handicap.
		
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Why should EG tell clubs what their club membership fees should be?


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## Bdill93 (Jan 14, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I'm wondering the same thing. Sure, there are a few dishonest club members, (I've played with a few in the past, so know they exist), but I personally think it's a lot harder to "manipulate" the current system than it would be for a few "lads" who aren't members anywhere and are just interested in pot hunting to pull a few fast ones.
		
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I think "pot hunting" is easily solved - limit the maximum handicap index allowed from Nomads in open comps. 

Societies I think have the largest benefit from having official handicaps. I often read on here various handicap systems that are used based around peoples ancient handicaps moving and some blokes spreadsheet. I'd deem it neccessary for players to get this handicap to play. But you could see some serious bandits there too if theres no authentication of the card required.


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That's no different to the previous system then.
		
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It is quite different to when someone else marked your card and then you both signed it at the end.


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Where? The MyEG app is super basic, or at least my Android one is. Is entering scores coming at some point in an update?
		
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You can enter a "general play score" on any course from any rated tees on the Scottish Golf app. You need to be close to the course to pick it up.
We also have the Intelligent Golf one but haven't used that to enter scores since the SG one came on line.


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## IanM (Jan 14, 2021)

Regardless of whether these handicaps are more or less rigidly managed than club handicaps (which vary from club to club) one truth remains at any Open Event.

........the better the prize table, the better the winning score will be!


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			It's exactly the same according to what you previously wrote, ie the player and the playing partner sign to verify the card.
		
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Did I say two signatures required? Sorry not what I meant. A verbal verification is what we are doing.
The SG app asks for 2 signatures but nobody is offering their phone to someone else to handle and use their phone at the moment.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Thanks for clarifying regarding the app  I can't agree with you regarding 'trust' though... A member of a club needs a signed scorecard, or perhaps now with covid, a 'witnessed' round of golf for it to qualify, right? So if you wanted to put in bogus scores, you would at least need an accomplice who is a member at your club. If you're a nomad, surely you can put in whatever score you want on the app and don't need anyone else there to sign/witness it.

The point I'm getting at is that if your committee found that you and your mate were putting in bogus scores, you could find yourself in a bit of trouble. For a nomad, I don't see how anyone could realistically check if they were putting in dodgy scores?

These are honest question by the way. I'm not trying to nitpick, but more interested in how this will all work.
		
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The app will require confirmation sig - not yet decided if it is a member of the playing club or the pro shop and they will have to enter a CDH number of that person verifying score.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			I have little confidence they can handle this professionally based on my experience, I had an EG account before WHS switch 2nd week of November I could not log to date that can not solve the issue, very busy I'm told, doing what I ask there's no golf, the problem is Dot.Golf in NZ and there is a time difference, and so it goes on.  Shambolic
		
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Check with club that DOB & correct email address was uploaded to EG


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Why should EG tell clubs what their club membership fees should be?
		
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Not sure how a membership fee can cover the affiliation fee, no mention of it.


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## sunshine (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The app will require confirmation sig - not yet decided if it is a member of the playing club or the pro shop and they will have to enter a CDH number of that person verifying score.
		
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I am guessing that the app will allow anyone with an account (and CDH) to verify the score that has been entered. This will allow 2 visitors who are registered with EG to play a course, record each others scores and confirm them, without adding extra admin burden to the pro shop / host club.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I am guessing that the app will allow anyone with an account (and CDH) to verify the score that has been entered. This will allow 2 visitors who are registered with EG to play a course, record each others scores and confirm them, without adding extra admin burden to the pro shop / host club.
		
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All I can add is that no decision has yet been made on who will be verifying scores but they are leaning towards a member of the host club at the moment.


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## fundy (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			All I can add is that no decision has yet been made on who will be verifying scores but they are leaning towards a member of the host club at the moment.
		
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Surely that would basically null and void it as a useful measure for 99% of people without club membership lol, might get an initial allocation that way but you arent going to get regular cards put in to keep the handicap anywhere close to accurate

Why cant it be any EG member (ie a club member or someone else who has their handicap through this scheme)


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

fundy said:



			Surely that would basically null and void it as a useful measure for 99% of people without club membership lol, might get an initial allocation that way but you arent going to get regular cards put in to keep the handicap anywhere close to accurate

Why cant it be any EG member (ie a club member or someone else who has their handicap through this scheme)
		
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I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow


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## fundy (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow
		
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Sorry wasnt being critical of you, am very grateful for your communication on this. Would be nice to think they are actually going to make it a workable situation and not a token gesture that never really gets anywhere (and rules like cards have to be signed by a member of the host club would do just that)

Thanks again for the info youve shared, its nice to know whats being proposed/discussed


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## sunshine (Jan 14, 2021)

fundy said:



			Sorry wasnt being critical of you, am very grateful for your communication on this. Would be nice to think they are actually going to make it a workable situation and not a token gesture that never really gets anywhere (and rules like cards have to be signed by a member of the host club would do just that)

Thanks again for the info youve shared, its nice to know whats being proposed/discussed
		
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Just want to echo fundy's comments that it great that people like old skier and rulefan are posting on here to educate us proles (apologies to the other guys I've not mentioned who also contribute useful info).

This has obviously got a long way to go, and it's probably just as well courses are closed right now.

I understand how I as a club member submit a card at my home course. I also understand how it would work if I played in an Open at an away course.

Still not clear to me how I would submit a score if I played a casual round at an away course, either with a local member or a fellow visitor or a nomad. Although the EG app has a course handicap calculator for each course, I'm guessing a score submission functionality will be added. 

Finally, will be interesting to see how this gets applied internationally. If I went on a golf holiday with my mates to Spain (I can dream), it would be good if we could submit our scores for handicap purposes (both nomads and club members). For the nomads this would be even more important to reflect these scores in their handicap.

Recognise that I'm straying a bit off topic here - sorry.


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## 2blue (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow
		
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Would also like to say, many thanks for sharing your info. This matter won't be sorted immediately....  I can see how it may lead to many more people being able to enjoy the wonderful game if golf either as part of a Trad Club or within Social Media groups. The secret of success will be ensuring everybody is happy with what they get from it....  only time will tell. Changing times are ahead.


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## Crow (Jan 14, 2021)

This just popped into my head and hoping someone has an answer.

We're all talking about handicaps from a prize winning (or stealing depending on your viewpoint) stance because the way we've most commonly had our handicaps adjusted is by entering competitions, but what happens in countries where the WHS system (or close to it) has been running for some time?  I'm thinking primarily of America as they have the most golfers.

Do they have club handicap competitions in America or do they just use general rounds to set their handicap?
I don't know for sure but I have a feeling that concepts such as the Monthly Medals with prizes and Club Opens aren't common in America.

If that's the case then maybe WHS will lead us to the same place as competitions with prizes aren't needed anymore and those that are held *might* be ruined by sandbaggers. 
If prize competitions are dropped there will be no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.


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## IanM (Jan 14, 2021)

Crow said:



			no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.
		
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Anyone ever seen a 10 handicap American who could break 90?  (without mulligans)    No, me neither!


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Just want to echo fundy's comments that it great that people like old skier and rulefan are posting on here to educate us proles (apologies to the other guys I've not mentioned who also contribute useful info).

This has obviously got a long way to go, and it's probably just as well courses are closed right now.

I understand how I as a club member submit a card at my home course. I also understand how it would work if I played in an Open at an away course.

Still not clear to me how I would submit a score if I played a casual round at an away course, either with a local member or a fellow visitor or a nomad. Although the EG app has a course handicap calculator for each course, I'm guessing a score submission functionality will be added.

Finally, will be interesting to see how this gets applied internationally. If I went on a golf holiday with my mates to Spain (I can dream), it would be good if we could submit our scores for handicap purposes (both nomads and club members). For the nomads this would be even more important to reflect these scores in their handicap.

Recognise that I'm straying a bit off topic here - sorry.
		
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For club members there home club have access to the WHS which enables them at present to upload casual round scores that have been applied away however the club must first introduce a system for casual card entry and procedures for both home and away courses.

They also have the ability to enter cards from outside the EG area.

This will require the RETURN of physical cards at the moment under the procedures laid down by the club, this may include emailing or photographs. Players should remember that there will be a need for physical cards once the current situation is back to “normal” until the R@A changes the rules.


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## LincolnShep (Jan 14, 2021)

Crow said:



			This just popped into my head and hoping someone has an answer.

We're all talking about handicaps from a prize winning (or stealing depending on your viewpoint) stance because the way we've most commonly had our handicaps adjusted is by entering competitions, but what happens in countries where the WHS system (or close to it) has been running for some time?  I'm thinking primarily of America as they have the most golfers.

Do they have club handicap competitions in America or do they just use general rounds to set their handicap?
I don't know for sure but I have a feeling that concepts such as the Monthly Medals with prizes and Club Opens aren't common in America.

If that's the case then maybe WHS will lead us to the same place as competitions with prizes aren't needed anymore and those that are held *might* be ruined by sandbaggers.
If prize competitions are dropped there will be no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.
		
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Interesting train of thought. 

I believe club membership in the US is much lower (as a percentage of total golfers) than it is the UK.  US golfers can apply for a handicap via GHIN regardless of whether they are club members or not.  They then submit their own scores without any verification.  My experience of US golfers (which is only from Facebook groups, probably not representative) is that many of them treat the rules as optional and they are more interested in scoring low and having fun.  One mulligan per nine, don't play off tree roots, kick it out from under bushes etc.  That's fine if it's just Bubba and his buddies and they all play in the same spirit - but then they submit their scores and end up with handicaps that are way too low (from a UK perspective).

If handicaps for nomadic golfers does lead to a lowering of standards of verification then that could, as you speculated, spell the end of prize opens.  Wouldn't bother me, I play opens because it's often cheaper than the green fee for the same course.  I don't expect any prizes - which is lucky as I never get any!


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			The sole reason I am a member of my club is to have an official handicap. I'd be much happier to frequent teetimes.com or play as a guest.
		
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I think that's a bit sad really that you feel being a member of that club offers you nothing other than the ability to hold a handicap. If that's so you are certainly right to leave as soon as you can make alternative arrangements. However, I think others will value their membership for other reasons other than handicap qualification.


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## hovis (Jan 14, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think that's a bit sad really that you feel being a member of that club offers you nothing other than the ability to hold a handicap. If that's so you are certainly right to leave as soon as you can make alternative arrangements. However, I think others will value their membership for other reasons other than handicap qualification.
		
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A golf membership offers me two things.  A handicap and a course to play golf on.  I don't need anything more


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## rulefan (Jan 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			A golf membership offers me two things.  A handicap and a course to play golf on.  I don't need anything more
		
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What use do you make of your handicap?


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			What use do you make of your handicap?
		
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I play a lot of national events throughout the UK (top courses) work related


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some.. 

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some.. 

The Players Club near Bristol already go a "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.
		
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I play around Somerset/Devon/Cornwall in about 3 or four games a week in different seniors, captains and county card events. I have a problem though, HID is stopping work end of March, was a bit peeved when I suggested she needed to find an interesting hobby.

The initial price for Independent Golfers was banded about by EG - it didn’t meet with a positive response from those in the meeting and I think they will rethink the offer. The 4 counties secretaries also had strong words to say about EG offering anything similar to the current county card system.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 15, 2021)

LincolnShep said:



			Interesting train of thought.

I believe club membership in the US is much lower (as a percentage of total golfers) than it is the UK.  US golfers can apply for a handicap via GHIN regardless of whether they are club members or not.  They then submit their own scores without any verification.  My experience of US golfers (which is only from Facebook groups, probably not representative) is that many of them treat the rules as optional and they are more interested in scoring low and having fun.  One mulligan per nine, don't play off tree roots, kick it out from under bushes etc.  That's fine if it's just Bubba and his buddies and they all play in the same spirit - but then they submit their scores and end up with handicaps that are way too low (from a UK perspective).

If handicaps for nomadic golfers does lead to a lowering of standards of verification then that could, as you speculated, spell the end of prize opens.  Wouldn't bother me, I play opens because it's often cheaper than the green fee for the same course.  I don't expect any prizes - which is lucky as I never get any!
		
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I asked this question on a more US based forum, and the response was overwhelming 
1.  Precious few golfers in america are members
2. Even a member would play in 2 or less competitions per year.
3. The vast majority or golf is played in informal leagues or rollups administered by the participants.  Who also agree the 'rules'.  With the huge majority taking a relaxed view on penalties for lost balls, mulligans and gimmies, this varies widely group to group
4.Nearly all rounds go into thier handicap calculation, no matter the format, nor set of 'rules applied.
5.  As long as everyone in the group / league stays together the handicaps stay relevant for their purpose.  But from group to group and particularly between groups and official competitions there can be large variation. 

So yes, if your a work society, you could agree to joing the england golf handicap scheme, agree your society rules, and enter all your scores verified by other society members.  Thus your society is administering the WHS, as most americans do.  Probably not even comparable to the club member though.  So one way or another something comes unstuck when members play with non members in the opens. 

My work lot regularly disregard out of bounds, ignore and replace lost balls, prefer lies, and because its become the norm, everyones 'society' handicap means 43 is a mid table score that is considered 'average'.  When I turn up occasionally and get 37 points of my club handicap, I get no end of abuse about how I cant play to it and how they thought I would be more comptitive as I play so often....

Sorry got a bit off topic there...


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## Crow (Jan 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			I asked this question on a more US based forum, and the response was overwhelming
1.  Precious few golfers in america are members
2. Even a member would play in 2 or less competitions per year.
3. The vast majority or golf is played in informal leagues or rollups administered by the participants.  Who also agree the 'rules'.  With the huge majority taking a relaxed view on penalties for lost balls, mulligans and gimmies, this varies widely group to group
4.Nearly all rounds go into thier handicap calculation, no matter the format, nor set of 'rules applied.
5.  As long as everyone in the group / league stays together the handicaps stay relevant for their purpose.  But from group to group and particularly between groups and official competitions there can be large variation.

So yes, if your a work society, you could agree to joing the england golf handicap scheme, agree your society rules, and enter all your scores verified by other society members.  Thus your society is administering the WHS, as most americans do.  Probably not even comparable to the club member though.  So one way or another something comes unstuck when members play with non members in the opens.

My work lot regularly disregard out of bounds, ignore and replace lost balls, prefer lies, and because its become the norm, everyones 'society' handicap means 43 is a mid table score that is considered 'average'.  When I turn up occasionally and get 37 points of my club handicap, I get no end of abuse about how I cant play to it and how they thought I would be more comptitive as I play so often....

Sorry got a bit off topic there...
		
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  That makes a complete mockery of the reasoning behind introducing the WHS!


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## sweaty sock (Jan 15, 2021)

100%,  and tallies with the absolute lottery of standards you see from american golfers...


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2021)

Crow said:



  That makes a complete mockery of the reasoning behind introducing the WHS!
		
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Not if you put a few quid/drinks on the result!
'Vanity' handicaps may be 'good' over a beer/wine', but could well mean funding the beers/wines too!


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			3. The vast majority or golf is played in informal leagues or rollups administered by the participants.  Who also agree the 'rules'.  With the huge majority taking a relaxed view on penalties for lost balls, mulligans and gimmies, this varies widely group to group
4.Nearly all rounds go into thier handicap calculation, no matter the format, nor set of 'rules applied.
5.  As long as everyone in the group / league stays together the handicaps stay relevant for their purpose.  But from group to group and particularly between groups and official competitions there can be large variation.

...
		
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That "very loud bang" was Rulesfan exploding!


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## patricks148 (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some..

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.
		
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you can play in a Individual strokeplay comp pretty much every week up here from April till end Sept and if you were 55 one a week during the week as well in the seniors, most clubs up here have at least two, with some having many more the Kings i think has 7 open comps and Nairn Dunbar not far short, if you also count in the 4 and 5 day comps as well you could get plenty of golf in, esp if you were not interested in playing betweem Nov and March


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## 2blue (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some..

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.
		
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Yes Golf Empire could easily supply you & a few mates with a  great selection of Comps. Around here if you were to join Leeds Union (don't know the cost or whether they will even be facilitating individual membership) it would supply another 16 in a year for £15 a player.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			you can play in a Individual strokeplay comp pretty much every week up here from April till end Sept and if you were 55 one a week during the week as well in the seniors, most clubs up here have at least two, with some having many more the Kings i think has 7 open comps and Nairn Dunbar not far short, if you also count in the 4 and 5 day comps as well you could get plenty of golf in, esp if you were not interested in playing betweem Nov and March
		
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So, in the event of a noticeable drop off in Club Memberships in favour of the "non-club handicap"  (which folk have say will, and won't happen on here) I wonder if we'll see clubs raising the price of their Opens to make them more about core revenue, and less about "additional revenue" and "reciprocal" golf between clubs.    OR even doing fewer of them?


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## fundy (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			So, in the event of a noticeable drop off in Club Memberships in favour of the "non-club handicap"  (which folk have say will, and won't happen on here) I wonder if we'll see clubs raising the price of their Opens to make them more about core revenue, and less about "additional revenue" and "reciprocal" golf between clubs.    OR even doing fewer of them?
		
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maybe they revert to being used as an advert for the club and selling memberships?


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## williamalex1 (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			So, in the event of a noticeable drop off in Club Memberships in favour of the "non-club handicap"  (which folk have say will, and won't happen on here) I wonder if we'll see clubs raising the price of their Opens to make them more about core revenue, and less about "additional revenue" and "reciprocal" golf between clubs.    OR even doing fewer of them?
		
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Most senior open comps in Scotland don't make much of a profit for a club, they pay most of the entry money out in prizes.
Usually only a small amount spent at the bar and catering.


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## fundy (Jan 15, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Most senior open comps in Scotland don't make much of a profit for a club, they pay out most of the entry money out in prizes.
Usually only a small amount spent at the bar and catering.
		
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They are a very different price and profile to a lot of the opens down South which these days seem primarily a money making exercise, to the point where a lot of them are actually run by external tours/companies not the clubs themselves


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## sunshine (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a *divorced* 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some..

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.
		
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I needed to make a crucial addition to your post


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I needed to make a crucial addition to your post 

Click to expand...

Marry a golfer!


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			So, in the event of a noticeable drop off in Club Memberships in favour of the "non-club handicap"  (which folk have say will, and won't happen on here) I wonder if we'll see clubs raising the price of their Opens to make them more about core revenue, and less about "additional revenue" and "reciprocal" golf between clubs.    OR even doing fewer of them?
		
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If this has to big an affect it will result in clubs shutting down then where will nomads go. There needs a careful look at how far the benefits a nomad gets compared to a member, if the balance goes in favor of nomads gold could end up in trouble for both sides.

One thing we will look at is a different green free for golf club members and a different rate for nomads. When it comes to opens there could well be a single prize for best nomad in the same way that clubs differentiate between visitors and home members in some comps.


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## moogie (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If this has to big an affect it will result in clubs shutting down then where will nomads go. There needs a careful look at how far the benefits a nomad gets compared to a member, if the balance goes in favor of nomads gold could end up in trouble for both sides.

One thing we will look at is a different green free for golf club members and a different rate for nomads. When it comes to opens there could well be a single prize for best nomad in the same way that clubs differentiate between visitors and home members in some comps.
		
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Surely what you're saying in 2nd paragraph is quite clearly discrimination..??


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## SammmeBee (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to!  No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy!  The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive.  Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh.  You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw.  You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun!   But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some.. 

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy.  So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.
		
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Downshire do something for £75ish to play in all comps, handicaps, matches etc - just pay a green fee everything you play......


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## Crow (Jan 15, 2021)

Another thing driving the number nomads looking for courses to play is the large number of municipal courses that have been closed in recent years or are on the verge of closing, leaving the pay & play golfers with a much reduced choice.

I don't think nomads with handicaps will have a big impact on club memberships as most members get a lot more from their membership than a handicap.


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

moogie said:



			Surely what you're saying in 2nd paragraph is quite clearly discrimination..??
		
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Know more than fees that are in operation now between members and visitors to opens, just adding a third layer to a pricing structure.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

moogie said:



			Surely what you're saying in 2nd paragraph is quite clearly discrimination..??
		
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No.  It's a commercial choice.   Now, you might say that is "not cricket" but it is not illegal.

Eg  Club Members have a levy card that get 20% of drink prices in the bar.  Anyone can get one if they are a member.  Not allowing you to be a member because you are from Aldershot, that would be discrimination!


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## rulefan (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			That "very loud bang" was Rulesfan exploding!
		
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I try to stay away from US golf handicaps.


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## sunshine (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If this has to big an affect it will result in clubs shutting down then where will nomads go. There needs a careful look at how far the benefits a nomad gets compared to a member, if the balance goes in favor of nomads gold could end up in trouble for both sides.

*One thing we will look at is a different green free for golf club members and a different rate for nomads.* When it comes to opens there could well be a single prize for best nomad in the same way that clubs differentiate between visitors and home members in some comps.
		
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Don't you have this already - the county card scheme?


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Don't you have this already - the county card scheme?
		
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Not all counties come under the scheme, there are also times during the day and months at some clubs were the scheme cannot be used.


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## sunshine (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If this has to big an affect it will result in clubs shutting down then where will nomads go. There needs a careful look at how far the benefits a nomad gets compared to a member, if the balance goes in favor of nomads gold could end up in trouble for both sides.

One thing we will look at is a different green free for golf club members and a different rate for nomads. When it comes to opens there could well be a single prize for best nomad in the same way that clubs differentiate between visitors and home members in some comps.
		
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Also... I think golf courses (clubs) need to understand their target market, and actually who are their target customers. Just like any business.

There are plenty of successful courses where the balance goes in favour of nomads. A private members clubs might have 80% rounds by members and 20% green fees / societies. A resort course maybe it's the opposite. I don't know the percentages but 80/20 is usually a good guide in life.

Who is your target? Members or visitors? Because the two groups have different expectations.  Trying to please both camps is likely to result in neither being happy!


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Also... I think golf courses (clubs) need to understand their target market, and actually who are their target customers. Just like any business.

There are plenty of successful courses where the balance goes in favour of nomads. A private members clubs might have 80% rounds by members and 20% green fees / societies. A resort course maybe it's the opposite. I don't know the percentages but 80/20 is usually a good guide in life.

Who is your target? Members or visitors? Because the two groups have different expectations.  Trying to please both camps is likely to result in neither being happy!
		
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It is thought that you could split Cubs into 3 categories:

Clubs who won’t be catering for nomads and because of the prestige of the club won’t be affected 
Clubs who will look at nomads as a marketing tool
Clubs who could well go under with members leaving in numbers that will make the club unsustainable


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2021)

moogie said:



			Surely what you're saying in 2nd paragraph is quite clearly discrimination..??
		
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I think when you consider the difference between prize money in men vs women tennis then a bunch of weekend hackers are covered


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## moogie (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Know more than fees that are in operation now between members and visitors to opens, just adding a third layer to a pricing structure.
		
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Tbh... It was more the green fee difference you were getting at. 

Wasnt really talking about the opens. 

Just thought as this is being pushed by the organisations that it is,  then clubs would be having to accommodate and not throw obstacles in the way....


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## Old Skier (Jan 15, 2021)

moogie said:



			Tbh... It was more the green fee difference you were getting at.

Wasnt really talking about the opens.

Just thought as this is being pushed by the organisations that it is,  then clubs would be having to accommodate and not throw obstacles in the way....
		
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The organization, I presume in this instance you mean EG, made it clear that it would be up to clubs to decide how they want to deal with this. It’s is the fees paid by members at clubs that allow the EG to operate.


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## 2blue (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It is thought that you could split Cubs into 3 categories:

Clubs who won’t be catering for nomads and because of the prestige of the club won’t be affected 
Clubs who will look at nomads as a marketing tool
Clubs who could well go under with members leaving in numbers that will make the club unsustainable
		
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Yes their could be big market opportunities for increasing the coaching market. Something our Club  owners will grab as during lock-down they've employed 2 more Pros & had 3 Swing Studios built. I'm sure they'll embrace the Nomads....  bid benefits possible if managed correctly.


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## sunshine (Jan 15, 2021)

hovis said:



			I think when you consider the difference between prize money in men vs women tennis then a bunch of weekend hackers are covered
		
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Tennis - the grand slam events give equal prize money to men and women. Are you saying this is discrimination?


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## fragar7 (Jan 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not if you put a few quid/drinks on the result!
'Vanity' handicaps may be 'good' over a beer/wine', but could well mean funding the beers/wines too!
		
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Foxholer said:



			Not if you put a few quid/drinks on the result!
'Vanity' handicaps may be 'good' over a beer/wine', but could well mean funding the beers/wines too!
		
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The minimal profit on a few drinks doesn't go far to pay the cost of a replacement fairway mower at 47K !


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2021)

fragar7 said:



			The minimal profit on a few drinks doesn't go far to pay the cost of a replacement fairway mower at 47K !
		
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I'm not certain how you connect players with vanity handicaps to a club having to replace mowers! Presumably, it's because of possible loss of members - who become nomads (but with WHS handicaps). That being the case...

It's up to clubs to ensure they are attractive enough for folk to want to become/continue to be members and operate profitably! I know mine operates that way - utilising the facilities it has for non-golf commercial activities, without golf operations suffering. And the green fees from nomads certainly help too!

If clubs aren't run fairly 'commercially', my belief is that they deserve to go under!


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## woofers (Jan 20, 2021)

There is another side to this. It is possible that someone becomes a “nomad” or similar, due to course closures and the lack of viable “proper golf club” alternatives in the catchment area. There is every chance of this happening in the  Horsham / Crawley / Gatwick district of West Sussex. In the next 5 years the following courses could be closed:
Cottesmore, Rookwood, Ifield and Haywards Heath, all due to Housing developments. Mannings Heath will shut the remaining 9 holes of the Kingfisher course and Horsham Golf is rumoured to reduce to 9 holes.
That means there could be a lot of golfers looking for a new club, and options are severely limited.
Answer - look at being an EG nomad, or joining somewhere further afield on their cheapest or flexible membership.


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## upsidedown (Jan 26, 2021)

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-independent-golfers-scores-monitored/


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## DRW (Jan 26, 2021)

upsidedown said:



https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-independent-golfers-scores-monitored/

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That sounds superb for me, will for sure transfer my handicap for the £40.00, to be able to upload scores from different courses, easily via an app. Wont change my memberships as such.

Be nice to see where my handicap ends up with more scorecards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

DRW said:



			That sounds superb for me, will for sure transfer my handicap for the £40.00, to be able to upload scores from different courses, easily via an app. Wont change my memberships as such.

Be nice to see where my handicap ends up with more scorecards.
		
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If you are a member of a club then you don’t need to do - it will be part of your membership fees already


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## rulefan (Jan 26, 2021)

upsidedown said:



https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-independent-golfers-scores-monitored/

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Interesting. The app that Richard mentions provides the same facilities and functions that players would/could use for general play rounds played at an 'away' course or if access is not possible at their 'home' course.


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## DRW (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you are a member of a club then you don’t need to do - it will be part of your membership fees already
		
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Is there a way to upload away social round cards via an app now ? What app do I have to use, thanks that would be great  ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

DRW said:



			Is there a way to upload away social round cards via an app now ? What app do I have to use, thanks that would be great  ?
		
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At th moment there is no way for anyone to up away scores at away clubs - even the EG app doesn’t allow it 

But the ISVs etc have looked at scores being uploaded via your current AP ( IG etc ) 

But even if you need to use the EG App that will be paid as part of your membership as opposed to you having a seperate payment


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## rulefan (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			At th moment there is no way for anyone to up away scores at away clubs - even the EG app doesn’t allow it

But the ISVs etc have looked at scores being uploaded via your current AP ( IG etc )

But even if you need to use the EG App that will be paid as part of your membership as opposed to you having a seperate payment
		
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The EG app feature will be released very shortly.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 26, 2021)

Makes the flexible 'no comps' style memberships some clubs offer very attractive.

Also ruins open as previously discussed.


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## howbow88 (Jan 26, 2021)

woofers said:



			There is another side to this. It is possible that someone becomes a “nomad” or similar, due to course closures and the lack of viable “proper golf club” alternatives in the catchment area. There is every chance of this happening in the  Horsham / Crawley / Gatwick district of West Sussex. In the next 5 years the following courses could be closed:
Cottesmore, Rookwood, Ifield and Haywards Heath, all due to Housing developments. Mannings Heath will shut the remaining 9 holes of the Kingfisher course and Horsham Golf is rumoured to reduce to 9 holes.
That means there could be a lot of golfers looking for a new club, and options are severely limited.
Answer - look at being an EG nomad, or joining somewhere further afield on their cheapest or flexible membership.
		
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It is crazy that a town the size of Crawley may well end up with just 1 single golf course.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 26, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			It is crazy that a town the size of Crawley may well end up with just 1 single golf course.
		
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Just slightly more than the number of airports it will end up having.......


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## howbow88 (Jan 27, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Just slightly more than the number of airports it will end up having.......
		
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No, I'm not _too_ worried about Gatwick. Easyjet are there for the long haul - we just need to get through this horrid situation. When we do, people will be so eager to travel, there will be a little bit of a holiday boom. I think regional airports will be the ones worst hit from this.


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## sunshine (Jan 28, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			No, I'm not _too_ worried about Gatwick. Easyjet are there for the long haul - we just need to get through this horrid situation. When we do, people will be so eager to travel, there will be a little bit of a holiday boom. I think regional airports will be the ones worst hit from this.
		
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Pedantry corner:
I think you'll find easyjet uses Gatwick for short haul only


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2021)

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/england-golf-non-members-handicap-plan/

“In a letter to affiliated clubs, the governing body’s chief executive Jeremy Tomlinson also revealed anyone signing up would not have “immediate access to county and national events, although there would be scope in the future to stage competitions purely for independent “golfers”.

Can see clubs opens doing the same


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

And if they do it kind of makes the whole thing a bit strange until the Nomad only comps come out...


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 5, 2021)

I can’t see me taking one up, flexible memberships are far more attractive.

From my perspective it’s a lot of fuss over nothing. Yes some people will leave clubs and a handful won’t join but those numbers will be lost in the normal ins and outs of memberships.

Clubs do need to use this as a reason to make better membership options, if they don’t then the numbers may become significant if a market opens up to take advantage of nomads with handicaps. I am sure some people are already eyeing up possible businesses based around it alone!


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

Good afternoon. 

Welcome to the first in a regular series of club updates on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform. 

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility. 

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​


*Working Group Update*
The England Golf working group on the independent golfer met on Thursday 4 February for the fourth time this year. 

The group will continue to meet on a weekly basis. 

There is now clear consensus among the working group that inclusivity must be at the heart of this project with the connectivity platform open to all regardless of age, gender, ethnicity or ability. 

The platform will be designed to offer a value proposition for independent golfers different to that provided by clubs to existing members. 

The working group recognises that clubs should remain in control of how and to what extent they engage with independent golfers who join the new scheme. 

The group has discussed in depth a variety of naming options which have now been shortlisted for future meetings. 

Other topics discussed in detail so far include focus and key messages, membership model, initial financial investment, club communications and a time lag consideration for membership which is discussed in more detail below.​


*Club and County Engagement*
The widespread consultation process on the independent golfer platform continued today (Friday) with an online meeting of all county representatives and key England Golf staff. 

During two productive sessions chaired by England Golf Chief Executive Officer Jeremy Tomlinson, voting members were informed of the progress of the working group and invited to table further questions on behalf of their respective counties and golf clubs. 

Both Jeremy and Chief Operating Officer Richard Flint recently attended an online club delegate meeting organised by Devon and will take part in similar conversations arranged by Hampshire, Norfolk, Wiltshire, Yorkshire and the Midlands region in the weeks ahead. 

Sharing thinking and encouraging feedback remain crucial to the development of a best-fitting platform ahead of its intended launch later this year.​


*Club Membership*
A common question asked in relation to the independent golfer proposal is how it will impact existing club membership. 

The working group has agreed the aim is to drive avid golfers towards golf club membership – or at the very least increase their spend on green fees, food and beverage and merchandise at local clubs where they feel a connection and develop a bond. 

From analysis of similar platforms currently in use around the world, there is no evidence to suggest that significant numbers will make the journey in the opposite direction and leave a golf club to join an independent golfer scheme. 

The benefits of remaining at a club which offers not only full playing rights, but also a good value proposition to members should outweigh those provided to golfers through an independent golfer platform. 

The working group continue to discuss the suitability of a time lag between a member leaving a golf club and joining an independent golfer scheme. 

The options being debated range from immediate entry up to a time lag period of 12 months.​


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## IainP (Feb 5, 2021)

This bit made me smile -
"The group has discussed in depth a variety of naming options which have now been shortlisted for future meetings."


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			This bit made me smile -
"The group has discussed in depth a variety of naming options which have now been shortlisted for future meetings."
		
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Knowing one of the working group I dreed to think what she will come up with.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2021)

ScienceBoy said:



			I can’t see me taking one up, flexible memberships are far more attractive.

From my perspective it’s a lot of fuss over nothing. *Yes some people will leave clubs and a handful won’t join but those numbers will be lost in the normal ins and outs of memberships*.

Clubs do need to use this as a reason to make better membership options, if they don’t then the numbers may become significant if a market opens up to take advantage of nomads with handicaps. I am sure some people are already eyeing up possible businesses based around it alone!
		
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Not sure if this sentence contradicts itself a little. The 2nd half of the sentence states membership is lost in the "normal ins and outs of membership", which presumable refers to the ins and outs associated with membership BEFORE nomads get their handicaps. The 1st half of the sentence seems to acknowledge that people will leave clubs / not join because of nomad handicaps are available. So, that is an additional factor that is not associated with our current normal ins and outs. So, if you combine both, then surely you are acknowledging that nomad handicaps will be an ADDITIONAL factor in clubs losing members, on top of the normal ins and outs we currently experience?

I'm not sure how this will impact clubs, my instinct is it could be very negative. Golf clubs had already been losing members, this is just another reason NOT to join a club if you can get a handicap much more cheaply. Yes, it is a much better option for individuals who like to play in Opens. However, if it is actually saving individuals money, then by default that means less money is being handed over to golf clubs overall. So, I can only see that hurting golf clubs rather than helping them. If I was being cynical, I might be inclined to think England Golf are more interested in getting the money directly in their pocket rather than in the pocket of golf clubs (I assume once costs are accounted for, England Golf would get more money from a nomad player than they get from an affiliation fee from a member). 

I'll caveat the above by saying this is just my instinctive reaction, I've not delved into all the opinions on this thread. The only reason my thinking was triggered is that a fellow member messaged me this morning about it, and was very concerned it could be the death of the golf club (I believe he said a nomad handicap would cost £40 annually). Will golf clubs be happy to have Nomad golfers play in their opens? Will players generally trust their handicaps are fair and have been properly reviewed? Will clubs ultimately loose money and have poorer facilities, or even worse shut down completely?


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure if this sentence contradicts itself a little.
		
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It was supposed to, the whole thing is a storm in a teacup if governed right.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 12, 2021)

Looking at various Opens I am entering this year they are consistently stating that 'to win a prize you must have a CDH number'. I don't remember seeing this before, although it would be required it just was not advertised. There is no addition to that though. No extra comment about being a club member or not. This could be added next year if they see it as an issue but the ship has sailed for 2021 it would seem.


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## 2blue (Feb 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Looking at various Opens I am entering this year they are consistently stating that 'to win a prize you must have a CDH number'. I don't remember seeing this before, although it would be required it just was not advertised. There is no addition to that though. No extra comment about being a club member or not. This could be added next year if they see it as an issue but the ship has sailed for 2021 it would seem.
		
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In my experience, for a number of years,,,,  2 or 3 at least, Clubs have been requesting CDH when you enter using their BRS booking system. 
I also see now for this year the Yorkshire Union are wanting confirmation that you've played at least 3 Q rounds in the last 12 months since with WHS, the 'Active H/cap' status is no more.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

Latest from EG

Good afternoon.

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​


*Working Group Update*
The latest weekly meeting of the independent golfer working group ended with clear agreement on key recommendations for certain terms and conditions.

Under the new scheme, it is the intention that golfers of all ages will be able to join on a 12-month rolling basis with the focus on keeping the process as simple as possible.

Once enrolled, members will be directed to educational tools which will help develop or sharpen their knowledge of rules, handicapping and golf course etiquette.

Safeguarding and adherence to relevant policies and procedures will, of course, be in place to ensure all golfers can enjoy the game in a secure environment.

In the weeks ahead, the working group agreed to address those outstanding areas relating to the terms and conditions of the platform such as fees, time lag for those joining the scheme from club membership, entitlements and handicap rules.​


*Pathway To Membership*
A key feature of the new connectivity platform is to encourage golfers currently operating outside of traditional membership to consider joining a local club/facility.

For those independent golfers who join the platform and then quickly decide to advance on the pathway to full golf club membership, there is a clear consensus that this should be a seamless journey.

Handicaps will be transferable and golfers free to move into golf club membership at any point in the yearly cycle.

The question of incentivising such a move was discussed by the working group and it was agreed that this was something worth exploring in more detail.​


*Online Meetings – Questions On Competitions*
On Tuesday 9 February members of the working group held productive online meetings with the Midlands Golf Union and representatives from golf clubs in Wiltshire.

At the Midlands region meeting it was asked if competitions would be arranged exclusively for independent golfers or would these also be open for golf club members. This is a recurring query.

At launch, county and national level competitions will be open for golf club members only. However, there would be scope to develop competitions purely for independent golfers if there was a demand and a desire to do so.

At golf club level, flexibility of choice is a cornerstone of the new platform. Clubs can choose exactly how and to what extent they connect with independent golfers.

Should a club wish to create an independent golfer-only competition or, alternatively, integrate them into some or all of the existing club competitions, this would be at their discretion.​


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2021)

Lates from EG






Good afternoon.

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​


*Working Group Update*
At the latest weekly meeting of the working group the issue of naming options for the platform was revisited. 

It was agreed that any name must speak to the target audience, offer clarity, a sense of belonging and, hopefully, create a desire for independent golfers to join.

Supportive messaging and tag lines must naturally flow regarding a connectivity pathway to golf clubs. 

Two names are now under final consideration. 

The working group also started to discuss in detail what role counties will play once the platform is up and running and how they may be able to support the golf club connectivity process going forward.​


*Personal Liability Insurance*
There is a clear consensus for personal liability insurance to be included as part of the independent golfer offer.

Since July 2019, golf club members paying affiliation fees to England Golf have enjoyed a member benefit of £10 million of personal liability insurance to cover incidents at any UK golf facility. 

This insurance cover provides financial protection for golf club members and since launch the policy has been called upon to settle a number of claims.  

It feels right and appropriate to extend the insurance cover and peace of mind to independent golfers who join the new platform.​


*Study of Independent Golfers*
In devising the new platform, it is vital to understand the profile of an independent golfer.

The target market for this platform is typically a golfer who, in the last year, has played golf twice a month or more in peak season. There is a competitive edge to their games with family and friends which leads to an interest in gaining an official WHS handicap.

The demographic is different to golf club members in that there is a higher percentage of women as well as a larger number of players in the under 45 age group.

A proportion of lapsed members also form part of this group. They are not new to the game and bring existing knowledge of golf club membership, rules, etiquette and the club environment.

Our research shows that this group of golfers is interested in golf club membership if they can find a value proposition.​


*Ongoing Support for Golf Club Memberships*
On Thursday 18 February, members of the working group held separate online forums with club delegates arranged by Hampshire and Norfolk county unions.

A question was posed concerning the promotional support potentially on offer from England Golf to direct independent golfers towards club membership.

It was confirmed that a fundamental aim of the new platform is to provide that clear pathway to club membership.

As well as building a new connectivity platform, there is also a strong commitment from England Golf to help clubs recruit and retain new members – many of whom have come on board in the last year.

The ‘Membership: Give It a Shot’ campaign launched in June 2020 is more pertinent now than ever. 

Participation and a return for many to previously played sports will begin again over the next couple of months.  Our Club Support Officer network will be advising and providing resources to clubs who request support in this area. 

We will be contacting clubs ahead of the start of the season with exciting developments for 2021.
​


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2021)

Good afternoon. 

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform. 

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility. 

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​


*Working Group Update*
On Thursday, the working group considered the process through which an independent golfer will obtain and maintain a WHS index. Independent golfers will use the ‘My England Golf’ app to input scores and track their progress. 

The process will be in line with the Rules of Handicapping and will have checks and balances in place to ensure the integrity of the handicap is maintained. Further information on this will follow in a future update. 

In addition, the group started to explore the roles and responsibilities of a centralised England Golf Handicap Committee, again adhering to the Rules of Handicapping.​


*Common club queries - your FAQs answered*
*Why will golfers join a club if they can obtain an official handicap through England Golf?*
There is so much more to being a member of a good golf club than the provision of a handicap. The benefits of membership far outweigh those being offered to an independent golfer through the new connectivity platform. We will support clubs to focus on the many added positives of golf club membership. These include important playing rights, social opportunities, regular competition play and a sense of belonging. During 2021, the ‘Membership: Give it a shot’ campaign will once again be central to our promotion of the game.
*Will introducing a handicap for independent golfers not have a detrimental knock-on effect for golf club membership numbers?*
In other countries where a similar scheme has been rolled out there is no significant negative effect on membership numbers. In fact, by drawing avid, independent golfers closer to a local club it provides that club with the opportunity to showcase what it has on offer and to profit from an increased regular spend on food and beverage, tuition, green fees and merchandise.
*Will there be an additional cost to clubs for administering the handicap for independent golfers?*
No. There will be no additional costs incurred by clubs associated with the roll out of the new connectivity platform. All the administrative burden and running costs will lie with England Golf.
*When is the connectivity platform going to be launched?*
All golfers will be able to obtain an official handicap index by the end of June 2021. The exact date for launch has yet to be decided.​


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2021)

Latest Update

Good afternoon.

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​ 



*Common club queries - your FAQs answered*
*How will England Golf spend surplus funds generated by the new platform?*
In line with England Golf’s role as a not-for-profit organisation supporting our affiliated golf clubs and golfers, surplus funds will be used to develop and grow the game.

Potential areas for investment discussed by the working group this week include:


a special project fund for golf clubs
further development of women’s golf
increased funding for junior initiatives 
more inclusive competitive opportunities.
 
Inclusivity and accessibility will lie at the heart of any investment plan.​


*How will independent golfers obtain a handicap index without being a member of, or assigned to, a particular club?*
In effect, the national association becomes the independent golfer’s home club.

Currently, the following system is under consideration:


General play scores will be submitted through the ‘My England Golf’ app.
Scores will be accepted from play at courses rated under the WHS system.
Digital scorecards for handicap purposes must be attested by another golfer who is registered on the WHS platform (a golf club member or independent golfer).



*What mechanisms will be in place to help maintain the integrity of handicapping?*
England Golf will administer and manage handicap indexes for independent golfers in line with the Rules of Handicapping.  

In order to achieve this, some new innovations will be introduced.


England Golf will establish a new national handicap committee specifically for independent golfers to oversee its responsibilities under the WHS and ensure all players are treated fairly and consistently.  
Peer review – as happens already with golf club members – will be implemented for independent golfers and will be overseen by the England Golf handicap committee.
 
Separate from the independent golfer platform, golf clubs will continue to be responsible for their members’ handicaps through their own long-established handicap committees.​


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## rosecott (Mar 5, 2021)

The Nottinghamshire Union has decided that Independent Golfers will not be eligible to enter any county competitions.


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			The Nottinghamshire Union has decided that Independent Golfers will not be eligible to enter any county competitions.
		
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I suspect that will be the norm across England unless they are specifically for the Independent golfer.


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## fundy (Mar 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			The Nottinghamshire Union has decided that Independent Golfers will not be eligible to enter any county competitions.
		
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why have they decided that?


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2021)

fundy said:



			why have they decided that?
		
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Because, like clubs, county can state their specific terms and conditions of entry. Plus a doubt that a county affiliation fee will be incorporated into the EG fees.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 5, 2021)

Makes sense to exclude from prestigious events especially as the new amatuer rules allow much bigger prizes to be won.  

The handicap system has never been more open to abuse.


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Makes sense to exclude from prestigious events especially as the new amatuer rules allow much bigger prizes to be won. 

The handicap system has never been more open to abuse.
		
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By whom


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## rosecott (Mar 5, 2021)

fundy said:



			why have they decided that?
		
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Don't shoot the messenger.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 5, 2021)

fundy said:



			why have they decided that?
		
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Think Beds and other counties are doing the same plus PGA East for Pro Ams 🤷‍♂️


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## fundy (Mar 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Don't shoot the messenger.
		
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no shooting, just wouldve liked to know the reasoning, certainly not unexpected


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2021)

Latest from EG

Good afternoon.

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance.

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​
​
*How is feedback being gathered?*

England Golf staff continue to reach out to stakeholders across the country to gather constructive feedback on the new connectivity platform.

Positive discussions were held this week with three different groups.


Yorkshire Ladies’ Association – delegates from around 100 clubs took part in an online forum.
Somerset Men’s County Union – circa 30 delegates from clubs were represented at the virtual meeting.
GCMA – chief executive Tom Brooke updated on the GCMA’s working party which has been set up to represent the views of golf club managers.

​
*Impact on existing flexible memberships*

One question arising from this week’s discussions was: With good value, flexible membership already a standard in many golf clubs is there a need for the connectivity platform?

The answer sought to reassure clubs of the mutual benefits of the new independent golfer scheme.


The benefits of club membership, including flexible and lifestyle schemes already in place at clubs, will offer many more benefits to golfers than the independent golfer connectivity platform.
Options for golfers should complement one another rather than compete.
The platform will be designed to encourage independent golfers to move towards club membership rather than work in the opposite direction.

​
*Club competitions and the independent golfer*

With county and national events remaining open to golf club members only, clubs were also keen to discover to what extent they were expected to engage with independent golfers at club events.

Again, England Golf was able to set out clear answers.


Engagement with independent golfers and entry to club events is entirely at the club’s discretion.
For some clubs, providing competitive opportunities for independent golfers may present a way of showcasing facilities, membership and increasing visitor spend.
Alternatively, clubs may choose to have limited or no connection with independent golfers.
Terms of competition remain in control of the host club – this will not be directed by England Golf.

​
*Follow us*​







​


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2021)

fundy said:



			no shooting, just wouldve liked to know the reasoning, certainly not unexpected
		
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Because club members pay county affiliation fees and Independent golfers wont be.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:




Latest from EG



Good afternoon.

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance.

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​







​

*How is feedback being gathered?*

England Golf staff continue to reach out to stakeholders across the country to gather constructive feedback on the new connectivity platform.

Positive discussions were held this week with three different groups.


Yorkshire Ladies’ Association – delegates from around 100 clubs took part in an online forum.
Somerset Men’s County Union – circa 30 delegates from clubs were represented at the virtual meeting.
GCMA – chief executive Tom Brooke updated on the GCMA’s working party which has been set up to represent the views of golf club managers.
​

*Impact on existing flexible memberships*

One question arising from this week’s discussions was: With good value, flexible membership already a standard in many golf clubs is there a need for the connectivity platform?

The answer sought to reassure clubs of the mutual benefits of the new independent golfer scheme.


The benefits of club membership, including flexible and lifestyle schemes already in place at clubs, will offer many more benefits to golfers than the independent golfer connectivity platform.
Options for golfers should complement one another rather than compete.
The platform will be designed to encourage independent golfers to move towards club membership rather than work in the opposite direction.
​

*Club competitions and the independent golfer*

With county and national events remaining open to golf club members only, clubs were also keen to discover to what extent they were expected to engage with independent golfers at club events.

Again, England Golf was able to set out clear answers.


Engagement with independent golfers and entry to club events is entirely at the club’s discretion.
For some clubs, providing competitive opportunities for independent golfers may present a way of showcasing facilities, membership and increasing visitor spend.
Alternatively, clubs may choose to have limited or no connection with independent golfers.
Terms of competition remain in control of the host club – this will not be directed by England Golf.
​


*Follow us*​








​

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Very interesting thread, please keep the updates coming!

So far I think the system sounds great. I dont think many clubs will allow nomads into opens etc, mine wouldn't, but I could be wrong!

If people want to abuse it - fine with me. It would only ever be to lower their handicap, and in doing so, would only harm their own scores - so crack on.

Ive got mates that play 10ish rounds a year that would happily pay £30-40 for a handicap facility to just feel like theyre playing the same game as the actual "golfers" in our group. At the moment we might give them 28 to play off in a stableford, if that should actually be 40 then so be it - so long as they can prove it


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## Swango1980 (Mar 12, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Very interesting thread, please keep the updates coming!

So far I think the system sounds great. I dont think many clubs will allow nomads into opens etc, mine wouldn't, but I could be wrong!

If people want to abuse it - fine with me.* It would only ever be to lower their handicap,* and in doing so, would only harm their own scores - so crack on.

Ive got mates that play 10ish rounds a year that would happily pay £30-40 for a handicap facility to just feel like theyre playing the same game as the actual "golfers" in our group. At the moment we might give them 28 to play off in a stableford, if that should actually be 40 then so be it - so long as they can prove it 

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 Are you sure? Surely it is just as easy to enter a load of dodgy scores that are too high as it is to enter a load of scores that are too low? A player could have 3or 4 of their best 8 scores that are their oldest in the last 20. Quickly entering 3 or for fresh high scores, suddenly their handicap could go up a reasonable amount. Just before entering a nice big Open


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2021)

Traminator said:



			You're rather naive if you believe that, obviously a far too honest fellow 😉
		
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Apparently there will be software in place that will look at anomalies in scores returned along with other requirements for returned scores. No doubt there will be some abuse but no more than currently goes on.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Apparently there will be software in place that will look at anomalies in scores returned along with other requirements for returned scores. No doubt there will be some abuse but no more than currently goes on.
		
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Having spent my carear in the IT industry whenever anyone say "the software will prevent / sort / fix this" I shudder!

Will there be worse abuse than previously? Before WHS yes, post-WHS I doubt it.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you sure? Surely it is just as easy to enter a load of dodgy scores that are too high as it is to enter a load of scores that are too low? A player could have 3or 4 of their best 8 scores that are their oldest in the last 20. Quickly entering 3 or for fresh high scores, suddenly their handicap could go up a reasonable amount. Just before entering a nice big Open
		
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Traminator said:



			You're rather naive if you believe that, obviously a far too honest fellow 😉
		
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Id expect any open to not include entry to nomads. Or have a seperate trophy. Join a club for the benefit of playing opens - just my opinion.

If the above is the case, a nomads handicap wont ever effect me, so I dont care what they do to manipulate it.


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## sunshine (Mar 16, 2021)

Prestigious events are all scratch so bandits have no impact anyway.

For handicap events it makes sense to restrict entry to members of an affiliated club.


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

If you can’t play in any Opens, I can’t see many paying £40 just to get a handicap you that you can’t use in competition (because no one will let you in).


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Id expect any open to not include entry to nomads. Or have a seperate trophy. Join a club for the benefit of playing opens - just my opinion.

If the above is the case, a nomads handicap wont ever effect me, so I dont care what they do to manipulate it.
		
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Depends on the comp, if it’s something like a charity day then nomads can be accommodated like away players by having separate prizes.


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## 2blue (Mar 16, 2021)

England Golf Senior Series used to have a H/cap limit of 24 or 28, can't remember which but is now open up to 54 ........  BUT no IG's. Have to be a Club member.


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## Imurg (Mar 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			If you can’t play in any Opens, I can’t see many paying £40 just to get a handicap you that you can’t use in competition (because no one will let you in).
		
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I've been pondering this for a few days too...
Unless clubs are going to run a Nomad prize alongside the normal prizes at Opens..where are these handicaps going to be used? 
It sounds like many, maybe most, clubs won't allow Nomad handicaps into their Opens. Are there going to be enough nomads to warrant a prize?
With handicap tracking apps that can do the work unofficially, the number that might take up the Nomad handicap appears to be not that large..
Could this turn out to be a massive waste of time and money?


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			England Golf Senior Series used to have a H/cap limit of 24 or 28, can't remember which but is now open up to 54 ........  BUT no IG's. Have to be a Club member.
		
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Most senior events are well supported and are able to increase divisions for prizes.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 16, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Could this turn out to be a massive waste of time and money?
		
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Almost certainly.


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## fundy (Mar 16, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I've been pondering this for a few days too...
Unless clubs are going to run a Nomad prize alongside the normal prizes at Opens..where are these handicaps going to be used?
It sounds like many, maybe most, clubs won't allow Nomad handicaps into their Opens. Are there going to be enough nomads to warrant a prize?
With handicap tracking apps that can do the work unofficially, the number that might take up the Nomad handicap appears to be not that large..
Could this turn out to be a massive waste of time and money?
		
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If clubs put barriers up rather than embrace it, then of course it will be, sadly thats a short priced favourite and weve seen today how they do


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

fundy said:



			If clubs put barriers up rather than embrace it, then of course it will be, sadly thats a short priced favourite and weve seen today how they do 

Click to expand...

Some clubs will use it as a marketing tool, some will like the green fees where HC limits might be in place and there is also the issue that nomad membership will also give members insurance cover the same as affiliated members.


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Some clubs will use it as a marketing tool, some will like the green fees where HC limits might be in place and there is also the issue that nomad membership will also give members insurance cover the same as affiliated members.
		
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You can already join clubs in the South West for less than £40 and get a WHS handicap, access to that clubs comps and Opens elsewhere, County Card and EG insurance etc. Still don’t understand why a nomad wouldn’t do this instead of this limited EG scheme with no County card limited comp access etc.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			You can already join clubs in the South West for less than £40 and get a WHS handicap, access to that clubs comps and Opens elsewhere, County Card and EG insurance etc. Still don’t understand why a nomad wouldn’t do this instead of this limited EG scheme with no County card limited comp access etc.
		
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I'm not for or against and the arguments in your post have already gone up the chain. In the end as has already pointed out, most courses let "nomads" use there courses anyway. EG are looking at nomad comps but my feelings are its more to do with income generating.


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## rulefan (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not for or against and the arguments in your post have already gone up the chain. In the end as has already pointed out, most courses let "nomads" use there courses anyway. EG are looking at nomad comps but my feelings are its more to do with income generating.
		
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It's more to do with R&A threatening to set up a nomads scheme if the relevant national authority doesn't.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 16, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Prestigious events are all scratch so bandits have no impact anyway.
		
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A relatively well known phenomenon is that of vanity handicaps which can be manipulated lower to make the ballot in scratch events. This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive. You may say, so what if they want to pay an entry fee with little / no chance of winning. However, there are many good players who cannot play due to being balloted out.


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## rulefan (Mar 16, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A relatively well known phenomenon is that of vanity handicaps which can be manipulated lower to make the ballot in scratch events. This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive.
		
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I would be interested in knowing which national level events you have experienced this in. The ones I am involved in have very rigorous selection processes and virtually all the players are well known to the organisers. If they are not already known enquiries are made.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 16, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A relatively well known phenomenon is that of vanity handicaps which can be manipulated lower to make the ballot in scratch events. This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive. You may say, so what if they want to pay an entry fee with little / no chance of winning. However, there are many good players who cannot play due to being balloted out.
		
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Completely this.....so many allegedly scratch golfers keeping proper 1s and 2s out of events......


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## Wabinez (Mar 17, 2021)

I don’t get that train of thought. To get to scratch is incredibly difficult. You have to be good, and the level of consistency in your game has to be superb for an extended run - especially in the old handicap systems. It’s a lot of 0.1s to be subtracted to get to where you need to be.

If they have got to scratch, vanity or not, they have put in hard work to get there....why shouldn’t they be allowed to enter the comps?!


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## rulefan (Mar 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Completely this.....so many allegedly scratch golfers keeping proper 1s and 2s out of events......
		
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I'd be interested in knowing which elite events this is purportedly happening in.
In addition to competition entries vetted by EG the County authorities regularly audit cat 1 players.


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## USER1999 (Mar 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Completely this.....so many allegedly scratch golfers keeping proper 1s and 2s out of events......
		
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Where is that flipping fishing emoji when I need it?


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## SammmeBee (Mar 17, 2021)

No 🎣 ....maybe not so much English Am, but, notwithstanding bad days at the office, just look down the bottom of the leaderboards at some of the scores or just go a watch some of them play!  

The tournaments for lesser players/older types are worse - how some of those players maintain the handicaps they do then I have no idea but we still have these clubs that have ‘playing seasons’ which doesn’t help.....maybe WHS will sort these out once they’ve all submitted a few scores....


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## SammmeBee (Mar 17, 2021)

PS.....I don’t believe EG or anyone else can do much about it as if you have an official handicap then it’s an official handicap, just saying how it is.....


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## rulefan (Mar 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			No 🎣 ....maybe not so much English Am, but, notwithstanding bad days at the office, just look down the bottom of the leaderboards at some of the scores or just go a watch some of them play! 

The tournaments for lesser players/older types are worse - how some of those players maintain the handicaps they do then I have no idea but we still have these clubs that have ‘playing seasons’ which doesn’t help.....maybe WHS will sort these out once they’ve all submitted a few scores....
		
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If not the English Amateur then what level of event run by EG are you referring to? The Brabazon? EG only run a couple or are you referring to County run events?


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

Update

Good afternoon. 

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

When launched, this platform will offer non-members of golf clubs an official handicap index and personal liability insurance. 

The initial aim is to inspire golfers to play more often and to increase the connection between an avid, independent golfer and their local club/facility.

We will create a best-in-class platform with the ultimate goal of educating independent golfers on the value of golf club membership and inspiring them to follow this pathway to greater participation.​ 



*Will independent golfers have performance measured using the same system as golf club members?*
Independent golfers will have their handicap index calculated via the same WHS system as golf club members and will hold their own unique membership number.

In future, this will allow a seamless transition to membership as follows:  


If an independent golfer chooses to progress from the scheme and join a golf club, then the club will simply request the unique membership number and playing history as they would do another golf club member.  
The independent golfer will then be resigned from the programme, with their details transferred to their new club. 
Independent golfers will be clearly identifiable on the WHS platform. 



*How will independent golfers be educated on the rules and etiquette of the game?*
Education on rules and etiquette will be delivered through all communication channels, with specific content relating to these areas included on the website. 

But please remember that many independent golfers are experienced players.


Many will have experienced society golf and society competitions
Just as many will have played the game for a considerable length of time
Many will be knowledgeable on rules and etiquette

Ongoing education is important for all golfers - independent golfers and members alike.​


*How will the setting up of the independent golfer scheme impact on the workload of golf clubs?*
The simple answer is there will not be a burden of work for golf clubs.


The connectivity platform will be run and maintained by England Golf.
Handicaps will be allocated and centrally managed by England Golf. 
The new platform will be designed to educate and inspire on golf club membership. Through the provision of an official handicap, we aim to create a greater desire among independent golfers to play more often at their local facility, measure their progress and develop a stronger connection.


For clubs that want to connect we will provide a simple connectivity pathway to help drive memberships and increased revenue.​​


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2021)

They seemed to put a lot of attention in trying to tell us many independent golfers know the rules. One would imagine it is a sensitive topic. If they have to make that much effort in reminding us this, one might think that many also have very limited knowledge on the rules (if that wasn't the case, why mention it at all?)


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## jim8flog (Mar 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I've been pondering this for a few days too...
Unless clubs are going to run a Nomad prize alongside the normal prizes at Opens..where are these handicaps going to be used?
It sounds like many, maybe most, clubs won't allow Nomad handicaps into their Opens. Are there going to be enough nomads to warrant a prize?
With handicap tracking apps that can do the work unofficially, the number that might take up the Nomad handicap appears to be not that large..
Could this turn out to be a massive waste of time and money?
		
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I have not had to worry about it for years but I can remember a time when a lot of clubs would not take visitors who either did not have a handicap or a reasonable handicap.  I used to play away a lot and with many clubs it was the first thing they asked when enquiring about playing.

I would imagine  lot of societies with members without a handicap and they can now be encouraged to get one. I once lost out quite majorly to such a player, given 28 by the organiser when it was clearly evident he was a much better player.


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## ForeRight (Mar 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			They seemed to put a lot of attention in trying to tell us many independent golfers know the rules. One would imagine it is a sensitive topic. If they have to make that much effort in reminding us this, one might think that many also have very limited knowledge on the rules (if that wasn't the case, why mention it at all?)
		
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From my experience of the response of a small number of clubs to the idea of nomad golfers having official handicaps, I would suggest that maybe England Golf are trying to address the concerns of the clubs with regards to nomad golfers.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2021)

ForeRight said:



			From my experience of the response of a small number of clubs to the idea of nomad golfers having official handicaps, I would suggest that maybe England Golf are trying to address the concerns of the clubs with regards to nomad golfers.
		
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It is a difficult one. Because, I have played with many people who play golf quite regularly, but not a member of a club. Usually friends, or friends of friends. Pretty much every single one has very little knowledge of the rules compared to someone who plays at a club. And that is not a criticism, why would they? They never play in comps, but just go out for a bit of fun. Not like they've club golfers educating them whilst playing comps.

Some know the basic rules, but would still drop one when hitting out of bounds or losing ball, drop the ball in the wrong locations, etc. Some have shocking knowledge on the rules, or are not bothered. They will not count air shots. In fact, if they hit a bad shot they will often take a mulligan and try again. Take a drop in a bad lie. Hack down tree branches or clear weeds to get a better swing.

So, I can see why club golfers have concerns. In my own experience, I only really started to learn the rules when I played with different people in club competitions. Before that, my equally inexperienced mate was never going to call me out on a rule and make me refer to Rule x.y in the Rules of Golf.


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## Crumplezone (Mar 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It is a difficult one. Because, I have played with many people who play golf quite regularly, but not a member of a club. Usually friends, or friends of friends. Pretty much every single one has very little knowledge of the rules compared to someone who plays at a club. And that is not a criticism, why would they? They never play in comps, but just go out for a bit of fun. Not like they've club golfers educating them whilst playing comps.

Some know the basic rules, but would still drop one when hitting out of bounds or losing ball, drop the ball in the wrong locations, etc. Some have shocking knowledge on the rules, or are not bothered. They will not count air shots. In fact, if they hit a bad shot they will often take a mulligan and try again. Take a drop in a bad lie. Hack down tree branches or clear weeds to get a better swing.

So, I can see why club golfers have concerns. In my own experience, I only really started to learn the rules when I played with different people in club competitions. Before that, my equally inexperienced mate was never going to call me out on a rule and make me refer to Rule x.y in the Rules of Golf.
		
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I have never been a member of a club and never played a comp, but make sure that I have a good knowledge of the rules. I think my knowledge of the rules is better than any of the club golfers I've played with. I have been given incorrect advice on several occasions.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			I have never been a member of a club and never played a comp, but make sure that I have a good knowledge of the rules. I think my knowledge of the rules is better than any of the club golfers I've played with. I have been given incorrect advice on several occasions.
		
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I'm not saying all non members are completely ignorant, nor club golfers rule gurus. 

But, it would be naive to think in general terms, non members would have the same level of knowledge as club golfers with handicaps. Again, no criticism of non members, but most do not sit down with a rule book and learn the rules before a knock about with their buddies. If they did, I'd applaud their enthusiasm.


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## Beedee (Mar 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not saying all non members are completely ignorant, nor club golfers rule gurus.

But, it would be naive to think in general terms, non members would have the same level of knowledge as club golfers with handicaps. Again, no criticism of non members, but most do not sit down with a rule book and learn the rules before a knock about with their buddies. If they did, I'd applaud their enthusiasm.
		
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I'd say you're doing nomads a disservice and giving far too much credit to club members.  Any nomad keen enough to want to pay to get a handicap is keen enough to know the rules.  And I've regularly heard some pretty basic "misunderstandings" of the rules from people who have been members for years.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'd be interested in knowing which elite events this is purportedly happening in.
In addition to competition entries vetted by EG the County authorities regularly audit cat 1 players.
		
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They are mainly foreign entrants who enter open competition balloted events and get in with their low handicap. I am not suggesting this has happened in the past with CONGU handicaps but the option is now open as our elite and low single figure players can return general play score in favourable conditions to improve their handicap prior to the season.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I'd say you're doing nomads a disservice and giving far too much credit to club members.  Any nomad keen enough to want to pay to get a handicap is keen enough to know the rules.  And I've regularly heard some pretty basic "misunderstandings" of the rules from people who have been members for years.
		
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Would you not say that is contradictory? 

Any nomad keen enough to pay for a handicap will be keen enough to know the rules (about £40 with no serious monitoring of handicap by peers necessarily)

Any member keen enough to pay for membership (more than £40, probably much much more), is susceptible to "misunderstandings" of the rules (yet will likely be under the scrutiny much more of many of their peers)

If you go back to my previous point, I don't think I am wrong. If I was, then it would be a non issue and nobody would be bothered about nomad handicaps at all.


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## Beedee (Mar 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Would you not say that is contradictory?

Any nomad keen enough to pay for a handicap will be keen enough to know the rules (about £40 with no serious monitoring of handicap by peers necessarily)

Any member keen enough to pay for membership (more than £40, probably much much more), is susceptible to "misunderstandings" of the rules (yet will likely be under the scrutiny much more of many of their peers)

If you go back to my previous point, I don't think I am wrong. If I was, then it would be a non issue and nobody would be bothered about nomad handicaps at all.
		
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I can see your point.  However, the nomad is already paying plenty for their golf, just not all at the same place.  The handicap is an extra expense that only the keen will pay.  And let's be honest, the "scrutiny of their peers" doesn't do that much to prevent some current members from irregularities when it comes to open comps (short game wizards).

Going by my own experience, I'm a club member and also play in a couple of societies with a fairly even mix of club members and nomads.  I'd say the rules knowledge is fairly consistent between the club members and the nomads.  Apart from complete beginners (on both sides) the average standard of rules knowledge is decent but not outstanding.  I'd say my interest in the rules is better than average but still not exceptional, and I've frequently been shocked at members' lack of knowledge and/or support of rule myths and/or massively outdated rules.

Maybe it's the societies I play in that are unusual.  We have strict "no gimmes" rules.  With the exception of the "lost ball/OOB drop on the fairway for a 2-shot penalty" local rule (to try and keep things moving with no walking back), we follow all rules that CONGU would approve of.  So everyone has to get a decent working knowledge of the rules pretty quickly.


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## rosecott (Mar 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			They seemed to put a lot of attention in trying to tell us many independent golfers know the rules. One would imagine it is a sensitive topic. If they have to make that much effort in reminding us this, one might think that many also have very limited knowledge on the rules (if that wasn't the case, why mention it at all?)
		
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Perhaps the simple answer is that this is something that has come out of the consultation process so EG thinks it appropriate to address it.


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## Jigger (Mar 19, 2021)

I’ve seen plenty of infringements by club members too.


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## rulefan (Mar 20, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			They are mainly foreign entrants who enter open competition balloted events and get in with their low handicap. *I am not suggesting this has happened in the past *with CONGU handicaps but the option is now open as our elite and low single figure players can return general play score in favourable conditions to improve their handicap prior to the season.
		
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But didn't you say *This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive.* ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2021)

As someone who attends county meetings including HC committee ones I always find it funny when clubs continue to bring up that OTHER clubs players lack of rules knowledge and failings in OTHER clubs when it comes to HC policing, its always OTHER CLUBS. 

Now we can point fingers at nomads, yippee


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## SammmeBee (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But didn't you say *This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive.* ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?
		
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They just pick and choose where/when they play to maintain a vanity handicap so they can get in these events.  Might have gone up .1 or .2 then back to the 5000 yard home course, where their limited ability doesn’t get shown up....


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But didn't you say *This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive.* ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?
		
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I have clearly touched a nerve so I apologise.

I have been involved at Senior amateur events which were open to foreign entrants (eg the British), also at the seniors open where pre-qualification operates for amateurs.  In these cases entrance is balloted and a large group of entrants are from the USA. Whilst I accept playing in different conditions can be challenging, in many cases their scoring rarely reflects their handicap. I have had several conversations with players who regard having such a low handicap as enabling them to enter many competitions in Europe. They were quite open about this and the way they play in friendy conditions / courses to achieve this.

As far as prior to the season is concerned - quite a few were from the southern states and hence I would argue the conditions were favourable.

Ask a lot of senior county players who try to enter these competitions - they might have a view of what used to be the case.

Let me stress that this was prior to WHS and hence the playing field has been levelled a lot.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As someone who attends county meetings including HC committee ones I always find it funny when clubs continue to bring up that OTHER clubs players lack of rules knowledge and failings in OTHER clubs when it comes to HC policing, its always OTHER CLUBS.

Now we can point fingers at nomads, yippee
		
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There are certainly plenty of members at my club who have limited knowledge of the rules. Some who think they are rules gurus, but get even the most basic ones wrong.

But, they are in a position to be challenged. By playing with different people with different knowledge, combined with discussion at the bar after, talking to Committee and referring to the Rules book after. 

There are a lot of safety nets that don't apply to non-member golfers who typically just play with their mates. Why would there be. If I was playing in a comp and a rules issue came up, I'd do my best to advice a player what process to take. If I was playing with my mates, who are not members and just play for fun, if I even started to explain many rules, they'd tell me where to go before I get to my second sentence.

As members, we probably take what we do know about the rules for granted, yet most of that knowledge came from playing in comps with other people. Even if they got it wrong, it encourages most of us to find out if it was correct, or come on this forum to ask. Before I joined a club in 2005, not a chance I'd do any of that. I knew very basic stuff as I watched golf on TV. But, i'd happily drop a ball wherever suited me best. I wouldn't have taken 2 club length relief for unplayable if I still couldn't play ball, I'd just drop it away from the bush or tree it was in so I had a nice swing and line to green. Didn't even occur to me that this was incorrect. Had I been playing with people outside my social circle, in a competition, I'd imagine sooner or later someone would call me up on this.


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## gopher99 (Mar 20, 2021)

You mean to tell me after all this time I have been playing golf there are rules.😀. I just go out and play to have fun and meet new people.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			There are certainly plenty of members at my club who have limited knowledge of the rules. Some who think they are rules gurus, but get even the most basic ones wrong.

But, they are in a position to be challenged. By playing with different people with different knowledge, combined with discussion at the bar after, talking to Committee and referring to the Rules book after.

There are a lot of safety nets that don't apply to non-member golfers who typically just play with their mates. Why would there be. If I was playing in a comp and a rules issue came up, I'd do my best to advice a player what process to take. If I was playing with my mates, who are not members and just play for fun, if I even started to explain many rules, they'd tell me where to go before I get to my second sentence.

As members, we probably take what we do know about the rules for granted, yet most of that knowledge came from playing in comps with other people. Even if they got it wrong, it encourages most of us to find out if it was correct, or come on this forum to ask. Before I joined a club in 2005, not a chance I'd do any of that. I knew very basic stuff as I watched golf on TV. But, i'd happily drop a ball wherever suited me best. I wouldn't have taken 2 club length relief for unplayable if I still couldn't play ball, I'd just drop it away from the bush or tree it was in so I had a nice swing and line to green. Didn't even occur to me that this was incorrect. Had I been playing with people outside my social circle, in a competition, I'd imagine sooner or later someone would call me up on this.
		
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You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club 

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules 

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs 

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense 

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules - 

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules 

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather. 

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint


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## D-S (Mar 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules -

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather.

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint
		
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Though I think much of what you say in this post is true, lo and behold the Club who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer. Players currently (sometimes for good reason) have a lot of suspicions about very good scores coming in from ‘away’ members in Opens - we have all seen some ridiculous scores in all sorts of formats. Once a ‘nomad’ or ‘nomad team’ posts such a score all the suspicions will be doubled and the Club’s entry policy, rightly or wrongly, will be blamed; this may affect future entry levels if a competition falls into disrepute.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 20, 2021)

Let's be honest, currently people who are winning clubs Opens are members of a golf club. Plenty of accusations about the integrity handicaps of regular winners of these events.
Saddens me that people are automatically suggesting nomads are going to have dodgy handicaps to hoover up prizes in Open comps.

I know quite a lot of lads who have given up memberships (including a couple of County golfers) for varying reasons but usually work or family, meaning they are wasting money in having a club membership. In instances like this nomad golf would work well for them allowing them to play occasionally keep a hcap and play a few odd comps. 

Personally I don't play any 4bbb comps as its a bandits charter, anyone moaning about nomads is looking in the wrong place.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules -

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather.

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint
		
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I am just giving an objective view, and attach no ill feeling towards a certain amount of ignorance of the rules, especially when a player may not have the same level of knowledge and communication around them.

If we were to simply trust all golfers knew the rules and treated the handicapping system with integrity, then tell me this? Why do the rules of golf have penalties for breaches? Why do club committees have disciplinary procedures for major issues? What is the point in a handicap Committee, when all it could require is one person to to the basic donkey work?

The truth is, even members of clubs are penalised under the rules of golf many times, and sadly sometimes even disciplined (maybe even kicked out of a club).

Who holds non members to account? Their mates?

I am clearly not saying every non member is a cheat, or just plain ignorant of the rules. The majority are not. But, as D-S says, as soon as a nomad golfer wins a competition, with any score to get honest, suspicions will be raised by members. More so than if it was simply an Away player.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am just giving an objective view, and attach no ill feeling towards a certain amount of ignorance of the rules, especially when a player may not have the same level of knowledge and communication around them.

If we were to simply trust all golfers knew the rules and treated the handicapping system with integrity, then tell me this? Why do the rules of golf have penalties for breaches? Why do club committees have disciplinary procedures for major issues? What is the point in a handicap Committee, when all it could require is one person to to the basic donkey work?
		
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So you have all that at all levels of golf but who are the main people that enforce the rules - the players , your overriding attitude appears to be that you can trust a club golfer but you can’t trust a nomad 




			The truth is, even members of clubs are penalised under the rules of golf many times, and sadly sometimes even disciplined (maybe even kicked out of a club).

Who holds non members to account? Their mates?
		
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Surely it’s the same people who hold each other to account - their player partners , the same level of trust for a club golfer and their player partners should be levelled at a nomad at their playing partners. Do club golfers have rules officials with each group or do you trust the club players to enforce the rules and integrity of the game - and why can’t the same level of trust be given to a nomad ? 




			I am clearly not saying every non member is a cheat, or just plain ignorant of the rules. The majority are not. But, as D-S says, as soon as a nomad golfer wins a competition, with any score to get honest, suspicions will be raised by members. More so than if it was simply an Away player.
		
Click to expand...

So suspicions raised by people who failed to win - that’s the only reason why people suddenly start to cry - when they have lost and someone played better than them.

Myself and my partner in the recent county champs had the same level of accusations aimed towards by two scratch county players when they saw we won by a considerable margin - it was just sour grapes on their part and they were told to politely wind their necks in


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## Crumplezone (Mar 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			most do not sit down with a rule book and learn the rules before a knock about with their buddies. If they did, I'd applaud their enthusiasm.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know they don't? That's exactly what I did.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you have all that at all levels of golf but who are the main people that enforce the rules - the players , your overriding attitude appears to be that you can trust a club golfer but you can’t trust a nomad



Surely it’s the same people who hold each other to account - their player partners , the same level of trust for a club golfer and their player partners should be levelled at a nomad at their playing partners. Do club golfers have rules officials with each group or do you trust the club players to enforce the rules and integrity of the game - and why can’t the same level of trust be given to a nomad ?



So suspicions raised by people who failed to win - that’s the only reason why people suddenly start to cry - when they have lost and someone played better than them.

Myself and my partner in the recent county champs had the same level of accusations aimed towards by two scratch county players when they saw we won by a considerable margin - it was just sour grapes on their part and they were told to politely wind their necks in
		
Click to expand...

Sadly, you are ignoring most of the stuff I have said, and simply choosing to be offended by certain bits. I continually state not all non members are ignorant of rules, and not all members are fluent.

If the question was, what type of person is more academically capable, one that went to school all their lives, or one that never went to school?

The obvious answer is one that went to school. That is clear by looking at both national and international levels.

However, not everyone that went to school are academically capable. Whilst some who didn't go to school are brilliant academically.

I'm not trying to judge individual people. I'm just looking at it generally. Clearly it is an issue, as many others have shown their concerns on nomad golfers long before I've commented on the topic.


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## rulefan (Mar 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			Though I think much of what you say in this post is true, lo and behold the Club who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer. Players currently (sometimes for good reason) have a lot of suspicions about very good scores coming in from ‘away’ members in Opens .
		
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If they are 'Nomads' as opposed to 'Away' players, how did did they get a handicap ?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			How do you know they don't? That's exactly what I did.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't. Nor did my mates. But, well done to you though.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			If they are 'Nomads' as opposed to 'Away' players, how did did they get a handicap ?
		
Click to expand...

The very topic of this chat is the nomad golfer getting a handicap.


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## D-S (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			If they are 'Nomads' as opposed to 'Away' players, how did did they get a handicap ?
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to a future Open if won by a 'Nomad' under the new EG scheme.


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## gopher99 (Mar 20, 2021)

For me personally I work shifts and used to travel abroad quite regularly before covid hit, I was finding that belonging to a golf and health club was becoming expensive as I was only playing twice a month. I like the idea of being able to have a handicap outside the traditional way of having one if you belong to a club. I have played in a couple of opens last year at Sunningdale and Swinley forest, without a cdh handicap I wouldn’t have been able to play.


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## rulefan (Mar 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			I was referring to a future Open if won by a 'Nomad' under the new EG scheme.
		
Click to expand...

_"... who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer."_
How do you know this is going to happen? Nomads' handicaps will be monitored in the same way as club members' handicaps. Often with more rigour than many clubs demonstrate. EG cannot afford to let it become a bandits bonanza.


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## Imurg (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



_"... who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer."_
*How* *do* *you* *know* *this* *is* *going* *to* *happen*? Nomads' handicaps will be monitored in the same way as club members' handicaps. Often with more rigour than many clubs demonstrate. EG cannot afford to let it become a bandits bonanza.
		
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How do you know it won't? 
I think the vast majority of nomads will be honest, truthful and not seek to manipulate their Handicaps in any way
The same goes for club members. There will be some of either faith that will seek to deceive.
But club members will find it harder to "play" the system as there will be more people on the course, more people in the bar and more people wondering than there would be for 2 blokes turning up, paying a green fee, going out and being liberal with the rules or how many fingers on each hand, filling in the card in the car afterwards
See a nomad kicking a ball, out from under a bush and you're not going to assume they're manipulating their Index, you just see 2 guys having a knock. No member is even going to see the score.
See a member do the same and questions will be asked.
Extreme scenario but how are EG going to know that scores are real?


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## D-S (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



_"... who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer."_
How do you know this is going to happen? Nomads' handicaps will be monitored in the same way as club members' handicaps. Often with more rigour than many clubs demonstrate. EG cannot afford to let it become a bandits bonanza.
		
Click to expand...

Of course I do not know is this will happen but the law of averages suggest that at some stage a nomad or a nomad team will in due course win some Opens, then as per my post, irrespective of whether the handicaps are legitimate and correct then other competitors, as they do after almost all Opens currently, will question the validity of the winners handicaps. The better the day the nomad has the more suspicion (probably totally incorrectly). This just gives those that discredit other golfers handicaps even more ammunition. 
Will there be more reporting of performance in team Opens? - in a Club there is ofren peer reviewed evidence of performance in formats other than individual strokeplay competitions, not necessarily Open competition but from Club competition. This evidence will obviously be lacking from Nomad golfers unless there is a more rigorous reporting system for performance in Open team competition.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



_"... who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer."_
How do you know this is going to happen? Nomads' handicaps will be monitored in the same way as club members' handicaps. Often with more rigour than many clubs demonstrate. EG cannot afford to let it become a bandits bonanza.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting EG will have a better control, or at least same control on player handicaps? Will they have an EG committee, who will be generally as close to players that use their system as club committees are generally to their members? Will EG have annual reviews, where they will discuss players handicaps and make changes where necessary?

Will any of this require a human thought process, or will they have sone special software to ensure nomad handicaps are BETTER regulated than club member handicaps?


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## balaclava (Mar 21, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Hot off the press.
England Golf to offer handicaps to nomads from 2021
		
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I was a member of Nomads in South Africa - is this the same society as that?


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## ForeRight (Mar 21, 2021)

balaclava said:



			I was a member of Nomads in South Africa - is this the same society as that?
		
Click to expand...

Nomads is just a generic term for players who aren't members of an affiliated golf club.  This isn't related to a specific society


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## rulefan (Mar 21, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you suggesting EG will have a better control, or at least same control on player handicaps? Will they have an EG committee, who will be generally as close to players that use their system as club committees are generally to their members? Will EG have annual reviews, where they will discuss players handicaps and make changes where necessary?

Will any of this require a human thought process, or will they have sone special software to ensure nomad handicaps are BETTER regulated than club member handicaps?
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that they will in effect form a club handicap committee which will manage their members as does any well run club. All resources will be paid for out of their members' subs not from non-nomad's subs.


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## D-S (Mar 21, 2021)

rulefan said:



			My understanding is that they will in effect form a club handicap committee which will manage their members as does any well run club. All resources will be paid for out of their members' subs not from non-nomad's subs.
		
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How do they intend to gather evidence on nomads performance outside WHS rounds?


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2021)

Latest update






Good afternoon 

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform. 

Since January, a working group has consulted with clubs, counties and other stakeholders on plans to develop the platform for independent golfers with the ultimate aim of driving golf club membership. 

With the final business model now agreed and in place, England Golf can now confirm details of the connectivity platform.​


*What is the offer to independent golfers?*
Independent golfers (non-members of golf clubs) will be offered the chance to join a new digital community of golfers aligned to England Golf. 

For an annual subscription of £40, golfers will receive the following:


A World Handicap System handicap index
Personal liability insurance
Access to the 'My England Golf' app to post scores, track progress and engage with friends



*Who will be able to join the independent golfer platform and what are the terms of subscription?*
The scheme will be open to all golfers regardless of age. 

The following basic terms will apply:


Subscription is open to any golfer with a home address in England.
Any golfer who has left a golf club within the last six months will not be eligible to subscribe.
Registration will take place online for a 12-month rolling subscription.
Subscribers will sit outside of the current affiliation framework (including membership of the county).
County and national events will remain open to golf club members only. If clubs wish to create an independent golfer-only competition or, alternatively, integrate them into some or all of the existing club competitions, this would be at their discretion.

England Golf will carry out all administration duties with no burden of work on clubs or counties.​


*How will golfers joining the new platform obtain/maintain a handicap index?*

Golfers can obtain a handicap index by submitting scores from 54 holes of golf played in accordance with the Rules of Handicapping.
Scores counting towards the 54-hole total can come from any combination of nine and 18-hole scores.
All rounds must be pre-registered on the ‘My EG’ app and, on completion, digitally verified by a playing partner who is either a golf club member or subscriber to the new platform.
Lapsed golf club members may be allocated a handicap index based on scores in the system dating back to January 2018.
The integrity of the handicap system will be maintained through a robust system of checks and balances. These include:


Processes on the app
Setting up of a national independent golfer handicap committee
Educating on rules of handicapping, rules of golf and etiquette
Opportunity for peer review



*What is the timeline for the launch of the new platform?*
The provisional launch date and opening for registration is early July.​


*What opportunities will exist for clubs who choose to actively engage with subscribers to the new programme?*
A simple process will be put in place for clubs to notify England Golf of opportunities they wish to promote to this audience. This may, for example, include the following: 


Green fee promotions
Competition and event entry
Club membership offers 

England Golf will communicate directly with golfers interested in exploring these offers and provide a platform to share details. 

Further guidance will follow around what this could mean for clubs, points to consider and how the programme will work.​


*What will money generated from the platform be spent on?*
Surplus returned from the new connectivity platform will be re-invested back into our game.

Areas of investment may include: 


Special projects funding for golf clubs
Women and girls' participation
Junior development
Support for disability and minority groups
*Further updates will follow during June 2021.*​


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## Bdill93 (May 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Latest update



​




Good afternoon

Welcome to the latest club update on the development of an independent golfer connectivity platform.

Since January, a working group has consulted with clubs, counties and other stakeholders on plans to develop the platform for independent golfers with the ultimate aim of driving golf club membership.

With the final business model now agreed and in place, England Golf can now confirm details of the connectivity platform.
​







*What is the offer to independent golfers?*
Independent golfers (non-members of golf clubs) will be offered the chance to join a new digital community of golfers aligned to England Golf.

For an annual subscription of £40, golfers will receive the following:


A World Handicap System handicap index
Personal liability insurance
Access to the 'My England Golf' app to post scores, track progress and engage with friends
​







*Who will be able to join the independent golfer platform and what are the terms of subscription?*
The scheme will be open to all golfers regardless of age.

The following basic terms will apply:


Subscription is open to any golfer with a home address in England.
Any golfer who has left a golf club within the last six months will not be eligible to subscribe.
Registration will take place online for a 12-month rolling subscription.
Subscribers will sit outside of the current affiliation framework (including membership of the county).
County and national events will remain open to golf club members only. If clubs wish to create an independent golfer-only competition or, alternatively, integrate them into some or all of the existing club competitions, this would be at their discretion.

England Golf will carry out all administration duties with no burden of work on clubs or counties.

​







*How will golfers joining the new platform obtain/maintain a handicap index?*

Golfers can obtain a handicap index by submitting scores from 54 holes of golf played in accordance with the Rules of Handicapping.
Scores counting towards the 54-hole total can come from any combination of nine and 18-hole scores.
All rounds must be pre-registered on the ‘My EG’ app and, on completion, digitally verified by a playing partner who is either a golf club member or subscriber to the new platform.
Lapsed golf club members may be allocated a handicap index based on scores in the system dating back to January 2018.
The integrity of the handicap system will be maintained through a robust system of checks and balances. These include:


Processes on the app
Setting up of a national independent golfer handicap committee
Educating on rules of handicapping, rules of golf and etiquette
Opportunity for peer review
​







*What is the timeline for the launch of the new platform?*
The provisional launch date and opening for registration is early July.
​







*What opportunities will exist for clubs who choose to actively engage with subscribers to the new programme?*
A simple process will be put in place for clubs to notify England Golf of opportunities they wish to promote to this audience. This may, for example, include the following:


Green fee promotions
Competition and event entry
Club membership offers

England Golf will communicate directly with golfers interested in exploring these offers and provide a platform to share details.

Further guidance will follow around what this could mean for clubs, points to consider and how the programme will work.
​







*What will money generated from the platform be spent on?*
Surplus returned from the new connectivity platform will be re-invested back into our game.

Areas of investment may include:


Special projects funding for golf clubs
Women and girls' participation
Junior development
Support for disability and minority groups
*Further updates will follow during June 2021.*
​





Click to expand...

Pretty well thought out! £40 is very reasonable


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## fundy (May 25, 2021)

£40 seems reasonable, shame about the integration into comps but comes as no surprise

"County and national events will remain open to golf club members only. If clubs wish to create an independent golfer-only competition or, alternatively, integrate them into some or all of the existing club competitions, this would be at their discretion"

thanks for the continued updates


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## Imurg (May 25, 2021)

If I'm reading this correctly, EG are setting this up and running it with no workload going to clubs and Counties but it's being left up to clubs and Counties to organise any competitions.....
Will many clubs want to organise an "Independent Open" ..?
Are there going to be enough comps to satisfy demand?
Are there going to be enough Independent golfers who sign up to warrant the comps in the first place?
I assume they have done some research into how many are likely to sign up...


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If I'm reading this correctly, EG are setting this up and running it with no workload going to clubs and Counties but it's being left up to clubs and Counties to organise any competitions.....
Will many clubs want to organise an "Independent Open" ..?
Are there going to be enough comps to satisfy demand?
Are there going to be enough Independent golfers who sign up to warrant the comps in the first place?
I assume they have done some research into how many are likely to sign up...
		
Click to expand...

On the comp side, a club wouldn’t know until they set up a separate  comp or even run a comp with different prize for the independent. Would depend on how full club comps are.

In a charity open event I would be more than willing to allowing entry to the comps with separate prizes.


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			On the comp side, a club wouldn’t know until they set up a separate  comp or even run a comp with different prize for the independent. Would depend on how full club comps are.

In a charity open event I would be more than willing to allowing entry to the comps with separate prizes.
		
Click to expand...

In Scotland we have a private company called Golf in Scotland [based in Bathgate ]
They organise and run qualifying comps at a few top class venues. As long as you have a recognised handicap.


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			In Scotland we have a private company called Golf Scotland [based in Bathgate ]
They organise and run qualifying comps at a few top class venues. As long as you have a recognised handicap.
		
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I don’t know if Scotland are following EG when it comes to nomads although the requirement has come direct from R&A.


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## pauljames87 (May 25, 2021)

I am really liking this idea 

If I have to give up my membership for any reason within next few years I know I can keep my handicap going for a while for a small fee until I was ready to join again


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I don’t know if Scotland are following EG when it comes to nomads although the requirement has come direct from R&A.
		
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Just a thought for some English entrepreneur , obviously there's going to be an opportunity


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I am really liking this idea

If I have to give up my membership for any reason within next few years I know I can keep my handicap going for a while for a small fee until I was ready to join again
		
Click to expand...

You cannot join the scheme whithin 6 months of leaving your club.


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## pauljames87 (May 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			You cannot join the scheme whithin 6 months of leaving your club.
		
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Yes but if I joined my old handicap would transfer by sounds


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## rosecott (May 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			In Scotland we have a private company called Golf in Scotland [based in Bathgate ]
They organise and run qualifying comps at a few top class venues. As long as you have a recognised handicap.
		
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If it's golfscotland.com, all they seem to do is luxury golf holidays aimed mostly at the American market. They make no mention of running "qualifiers".

Or if it's golfinscotland.co.uk, I still can't see a private company being allowed to run "qualifiers".


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2021)

rosecott said:



			If it's golfscotland.com, all they seem to do is luxury golf holidays aimed mostly at the American market. They make no mention of running "qualifiers".

Or if it's golfinscotland.co.uk, I still can't see a private company being allowed to run "qualifiers".
		
Click to expand...

I can assure you they run qualifying events, I've played a few of them and the scores are returned to SG for handicap purposes.
They also run individual senior tour events, pairs comps and Texas scrambles, at top courses like Castle Stuart, Turnberry, Gleneagles, Kings Barns ETC


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## nickjdavis (May 26, 2021)

No mention about the need to return cards as part of the score submission process. 

Maybe EG have realised that it is utterly unworkable to have scores returned for verification and have decided that its going to have to run on trust.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			No mention about the need to return cards as part of the score submission process. 

Maybe EG have realised that it is utterly unworkable to have scores returned for verification and have decided that its going to have to run on trust.
		
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Good point and as one of our county reps is on the steering group I will ask at the next county meeting.


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## nickjdavis (May 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Good point and as one of our county reps is on the steering group I will ask at the next county meeting.
		
Click to expand...

The main point being is that it is wrong to expect clubs to process General Play cards submitted by golfers using the EG (or similar Apps) if EG do not plan to do it for the independent golfer scheme. We've had a 10 fold increase in general play cards submitted since the EG app went live, yet our regional handicap advisor insists that cards must be returned for verification.


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## IanM (May 26, 2021)

I think we need a GM Forum investigation of this.... 

I wonder if I can register for a Nomad Handicap with a false identity, put in false cards, get a handicap more than double my current one and then play in an Open with it???  

Whaddya think?


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## fundy (May 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			I think we need a GM Forum investigation of this.... 

I wonder if I can register for a Nomad Handicap with a false identity, put in false cards, get a handicap more than double my current one and then play in an Open with it???  

Whaddya think? 

Click to expand...


At the same time, why not join another club with a false identity, put in false cards, get a handicap more than double your current one and then play in an Open with it???


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## IanM (May 26, 2021)

fundy said:



			At the same time, why not join another club with a false identity, put in false cards, get a handicap more than double your current one and then play in an Open with it???
		
Click to expand...

Cos, I would have to pay the subs, there would be a handicap committee thinking "this is odd, he's joined and only puts in general play cards. Has anyone met him?  Why doesn't he play here? etc" 

Apart from all of that, it is exactly the same.  I guess when it launches, we can see!


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			The main point being is that it is wrong to expect clubs to process General Play cards submitted by golfers using the EG (or similar Apps) if EG do not plan to do it for the independent golfer scheme. We've had a 10 fold increase in general play cards submitted since the EG app went live, yet our regional handicap advisor insists that cards must be returned for verification.
		
Click to expand...

I'd tell your regional advisor to mind his own business,  its up to clubs to dictate policiy o  how they deal with cards


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## nickjdavis (May 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I'd tell your regional advisor to mind his own business,  its up to clubs to dictate policy o  how they deal with cards
		
Click to expand...

We realise this and have ignored them, but still went back and posed the question to them as to why we must do it when EG almost certainly wont do it for the Independent Golfer scheme.....never got an answer.


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## carlwantsgolf77 (Jul 22, 2021)

Thought I'd drag this thread back up and see if anyone has joined or knows of anyone joining this independent golfer scheme? I'm seriously considering it, I can't justify paying the cost of club  membership fees when I play 1-2 times a month on average. It would be a nice cost effective way of gaining an official handicap so I could then compete socially or otherwise.


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## rulefan (Jul 22, 2021)

carlwantsgolf77 said:



			Thought I'd drag this thread back up and see if anyone has joined or knows of anyone joining this independent golfer scheme? I'm seriously considering it, I can't justify paying the cost of club  membership fees when I play 1-2 times a month on average. It would be a nice cost effective way of gaining an official handicap so I could then compete socially or otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

How often would you expect to play at an individual club? Some (many?) clubs restrict the number of times a visitor may play in a year.


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## carlwantsgolf77 (Jul 22, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How often would you expect to play at an individual club? Some (many?) clubs restrict the number of times a visitor may play in a year.
		
Click to expand...

I mostly use pay and play (playgolf) but want to also move around and try out other courses so probably no individual club more than a few times a year as a guest.


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## Tinkerman (Jul 23, 2021)

I have two mates who have signed up. They don't have time/money for joining a club but want an official handicap to compare themselves against others in the group who are club members so that they we all play together socially off proper handicaps. 

They have no intention of playing Opens or trying to get into club comps (wouldnt be able to at our play anyway) but this could lead at least one of them joining the club down the line rather than putting them off.


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## KenL (Jul 23, 2021)

I hear you can do it through Scottish Golf.


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## Dando (Jul 23, 2021)

carlwantsgolf77 said:



			Thought I'd drag this thread back up and see if anyone has joined or knows of anyone joining this independent golfer scheme? I'm seriously considering it, I can't justify paying the cost of club  membership fees when I play 1-2 times a month on average. It would be a nice cost effective way of gaining an official handicap so I could then compete socially or otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

I signed up to it as I can’t be bothered to join a club but having an official handicap will get me on to some decent courses


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

2 of my mates who always play big courses joined 

Before they had to get fake handicap certificates off a local pro just to make sure the courses didn't kick them off now they happy for £40 a year they can prove their ability


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## D-S (Jul 23, 2021)

I can’t remember the last time I was asked for a handicap certificate to get onto a course and that includes many expensive and exclusive ones.


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## carlwantsgolf77 (Jul 23, 2021)

All very encouraging, thanks for the responses guys. I hadn't even considered the occasional requirement for proving a handicap. I probably won't enter many competitions if at all any, but would like the option with an official handicap.


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## Tinkerman (Jul 23, 2021)

To submit cards in the app you need to have them attested by someone who is also signed up or a club member. 
You pre-register your round in the app before starting play and can then use the app as you go round to enter the score hole by hole, or just enter them all at the end of the round. You then sign electronically and have to select someone to attest it. They get a message through their app to verify your score.
If you don't know a club member to attest them, try and get a mate to sign up as well


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2021)

Tinkerman said:



			To submit cards in the app you need to have them attested by someone who is also signed up or a club member.
You pre-register your round in the app before starting play and can then use the app as you go round to enter the score hole by hole, or just enter them all at the end of the round. You then sign electronically and have to select someone to attest it. They get a message through their app to verify your score.
If you don't know a club member to attest them, try and get a mate to sign up as well
		
Click to expand...

I believe the GP cards have to submitted through the EG app only.


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## KenL (Jul 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I believe the GP cards have to submitted through the EG app only.
		
Click to expand...

This is Scotland so may well be different.

I can put in a GP score via my club Intelligent Golf app at my own course or any course in Scotland on the Scottish Golf app.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 23, 2021)

KenL said:



			This is Scotland so may well be different.

I can put in a GP score via my club Intelligent Golf app at my own course or any course in Scotland on the Scottish Golf app.
		
Click to expand...

In Scotland you enter your GP score on whoever your club software provider is. But also I *think* if you use one of the others you can also use the SG App. If your club uses the SG App then that is your only option.


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2021)

KenL said:



			This is Scotland so may well be different.

I can put in a GP score via my club Intelligent Golf app at my own course or any course in Scotland on the Scottish Golf app.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, may have misled you. I was referring specifically to 'official' nomads returning GP scores.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Sorry, may have misled you. I was referring specifically to 'official' nomads returning GP scores.
		
Click to expand...

The nomads are members of golf England igolf and use the EG app for everything


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The nomads are members of golf England igolf and use the EG app for everything
		
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Hasn't Scotland Golf introduced a similar nomad facility/system?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Hasn't Scotland Golf introduced a similar nomad facility/system?
		
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No idea I live the correct side of the border  🤣


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## Imurg (Jul 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



*ENGLAND GOLF DROPS HANDICAP IDEA FOR NOMADIC GOLFERS*

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/england-golf-drops-handicap-idea-nomadic-golfers

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A year old..?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



*ENGLAND GOLF DROPS HANDICAP IDEA FOR NOMADIC GOLFERS*

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/england-golf-drops-handicap-idea-nomadic-golfers

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1 year old article for an idea that's already live and working


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2021)

OOPS


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## NearHull (Jul 23, 2021)

Duplicated from t’other thread

We are meeting to consider restricting Opens to club members. The general view - with no data nor experience- is there is no confidence that the handicaps of Nomads wil be robustly governed. Our Opens are well subscribed, so there is really no business case to bring them in.


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 24, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Duplicated from t’other thread

We are meeting to consider restricting Opens to club members. The general view - with no data nor experience- is there is no confidence that the handicaps of Nomads wil be robustly governed. Our Opens are well subscribed, so there is really no business case to bring them in.
		
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One of my pals is thinking of not renewing his membership next year and keeping his handicap active through the iGolf scheme in order to enter opens.

Your comment is a reason I tried to steer him away from it. To cap it off we then filled out an entry from to enter an open at the Manchester GC next week and the entry form actually states you must be a "bona-fide member of a Golf Club".


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## IanM (Jul 24, 2021)

Speaking to players at an event this week there seems to be a several instances of clubs restricting Open Entries to club members.    One guy said they were allowing anyone to enter, but restricting eligibility to win prizes.

Maybe clubs should report leading scores in all events to vlubs/handicap bodies?  Its not their existence that concerns,  its a perceived lack of governance.


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## 2blue (Jul 24, 2021)

IanM said:



			Speaking to players at an event this week there seems to be a several instances of clubs restricting Open Entries to club members.    One guy said they were allowing anyone to enter, but restricting eligibility to win prizes.

*Maybe clubs should report leading scores in all events to vlubs/handicap bodies? * Its not their existence that concerns,  its a perceived lack of governance.
		
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I seem to recall, from a number of years ago,  EG/CONGU requesting this for the top 5 'Away Scores'. We never received any at all, due, I would guess for the extra work involved. It would appear that Clubs want the revenue from Opens but not any extra work. Players were also requested to return such scores but very few did. It was only our own diligence & research that revealed issues among our own members at Opens. I think there is room for Clubs to run Opens with modest prizes, to include Nomads & see the impact. After all the insistence on Club-membership can so easily be added if needed.


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## Smiffy (Jul 24, 2021)

It would be an interesting experiment to run an Open with separate prizes for official handicap holders and holders of Nomadic ones. I wonder if there would be a large disparity between the scoring of each category??


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			It would be an interesting experiment to run an Open with separate prizes for official handicap holders and holders of Nomadic ones. I wonder if there would be a large disparity between the scoring of each category??
		
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If you look at some of the really stupid scores at some clubs posted on here I don’t think there will be much difference.
It’s going to take some time to settle down until we all have enough scores under WHS.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 25, 2021)

IanM said:



			Speaking to players at an event this week there seems to be a several instances of clubs restricting Open Entries to club members.    One guy said they were allowing anyone to enter, but restricting eligibility to win prizes.

Maybe clubs should report leading scores in all events to vlubs/handicap bodies?  Its not their existence that concerns,  its a perceived lack of governance.
		
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It was certainly the suggestion from Scottish Golf that anyone playing as an 'OpenGolf' member should pay a green fee oer and above that which all other entrants would pay to make up for their lack of being a club member. 

We decided immediately that we simply wouldn't accept an entry from anyone who isn't a club member, and I hear similar from other clubs.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 25, 2021)

HeftyHacker said:



			One of my pals is thinking of not renewing his membership next year and keeping his handicap active through the iGolf scheme in order to enter opens.

Your comment is a reason I tried to steer him away from it. To cap it off we then filled out an entry from to enter an open at the Manchester GC next week and the entry form actually states you must be a "bona-fide member of a Golf Club".
		
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Don't know about England, but in Scotland there's a 6 month grace period, if you leave a golf club you can't join 'OpenGolf' until that period expires.


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## rulefan (Jul 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Don't know about England, but in Scotland there's a 6 month grace period, if you leave a golf club you can't join 'OpenGolf' until that period expires.
		
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The same in England


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## FourPutt (Jul 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The same in England
		
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Yup, to discourage this exact scenario.


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 26, 2021)

FourPutt said:



			Yup, to discourage this exact scenario.
		
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Hypothetically speaking, what stop someone from cancelling their membership in, say, October and then signing up for the iGolf in April meaning they lose minimal golf (providing they aren't playing links week in week out)?


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