# heres a question, is the diff between a 15 handicap and a 5 that big?



## G1BB0 (Mar 25, 2014)

ok its 10 shots on average so in a sense almost every other hole. In the grand scheme of things is it really that huge?

bare in mine it could be an extra chip or putt here and there


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2014)

Quite a bit of the difference will be ability (short game, ball striking etc) but a large part will be down to course management. Most higher handicappers could save at least 3 or 4 shots a round with better decision making.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes. Certainly in my case. Got down tantalisingly from 14-9 (briefly) and now back at 12. Granted I've made some pretty big swing changes and 2013 was a nightmare and the year of the 0.1. Hoping this year will get me to single figures but I still don't think I can kick on towards 5


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## G1BB0 (Mar 25, 2014)

I am not belittling those at 5h/c btw, I just was sat thinking and it really is small margins overall.


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## macca64 (Mar 25, 2014)

played with a  5 h/c on sat in the roll up, about 50yrds longer than me off the tee, hits most greens, and took in the region of 10 putts less, a big difference to me, but he did have good day and hit a gross 73,


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## brendy (Mar 25, 2014)

Consistency, a 5 handicapper has far less margin of error compared to a 15. To play of low to mid single figures, you really need to make a bad day average otherwise the handicap will drift. 15 handicappers get almost a shot a hole so yes there is a huge gulf though not insurmountable with coaching and correct practice.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 25, 2014)

I went round in 89 at the weekend and my m8 off 6 went round in 83.

He did hit loads of greens but couldnt hole a putt.


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## MadAdey (Mar 25, 2014)

Agree 100% with D4S, you see so many higher handicap players throwing shots away all round the course. A mate of mine Pete who has played with a few people from the forum with me is the best example of this. Went from 25 to 12 in one year just because he started to play the correct shot. Ok his ability did improve too but a lot of his lower scoring was not through hitting the ball better, but playing better golf.


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## NorfolkShaun (Mar 25, 2014)

Probably the biggest difference I have noticed between higher and lower handicap golfers is higher handicap golfers are much longer and much more consistent off the tee.

Makes the game much easier if you playing a 9 iron into a green rather than a 5 iron


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## Lump (Mar 25, 2014)

You'd think that off 5 you'd be good at all aspects of the game, but along as you have a good short game and the putter stays hot you can miss green/fairways all round long and still score well.

The worst part of my game is off the tee, but thankfully I have a good short game and I'm a relatively good putter. I will openly say my handicap is all in my short game.


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## scottbrown (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't believe there is a huge difference. 
Course management is a big one. 

The other I see a lot from higher handicaps is the recovery shot from the trees / hazard etc. most low guys will chip out and accept a bogey at worst. A lot of higher guys think they can play the seve shot and end up with double or triple.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

Difference would be consistency and better short game IMO


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 25, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Probably the biggest difference I have noticed between higher and lower handicap golfers is higher handicap golfers are much longer and much more consistent off the tee.

Makes the game much easier if you playing a 9 iron into a green rather than a 5 iron
		
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Dont you mean LOWER handicap golfers are much longer and much more consistent .....

see we are awake


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## G1BB0 (Mar 25, 2014)

Lump said:



			You'd think that off 5 you'd be good at all aspects of the game, but along as you have a good short game and the putter stays hot you can miss green/fairways all round long and still score well.

The worst part of my game is off the tee, but thankfully I have a good short game and I'm a relatively good putter. I will openly say my handicap is all in my short game.
		
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mine is in my long game 

maybe if we share tips we can both get to single figures


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## NorfolkShaun (Mar 25, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Dont you mean LOWER handicap golfers are much longer and much more consistent .....

see we are awake 

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Whoops  :lol:


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 25, 2014)

Theres a far greater difference imo between 5 and 15, against 15 and 25.
So little room for error once you get to single figures.


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## louise_a (Mar 25, 2014)

I think the difference appears small but that little difference is where it counts. I, and  I am sure most other mid handicappers, can get on or near the greens on most holes in regulation. Its what happens next that counts. A 5 handicapper will get up and down most times if he/she misses the green whereas I will only manage it occasionally.


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## Birchy (Mar 25, 2014)

Short game and course management. 

When you write it down on paper it doesnt seem a lot but it is. If it wasnt a lot loads more people would be down towards 5.

Its not a big difference physically imo but there is a big skill difference.


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## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2014)

Main one would be as a 15 handicap  you get but 0.3 as a 5 it's 0.1 buffer is diff too.


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## RobertB (Mar 25, 2014)

say shooting 76 with 30 putts.. 

46 shots to distribute on 18 holes... say 4 par 3s, low HC will probably hit 3 of 4 

so now ~42 shots for 14 holes, will probably hit say 6 par 4s in regulation or get up/down for 4. 

so 28 shots left for 8 holes..... 

3.5 shots a hole left....

key to score in mid 70's is not frittering shots away on 3 or more putts.... rolling in six single putt greens!


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## upsidedown (Mar 25, 2014)

I'd say one thing is club selection for the approach shot ( one I'm guilty of) and that is under clubbing and coming up short


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## Sponge1980 (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Difference would be consistency and better short game IMO
		
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Totally agree with this. My best mate plays off 14 and I play off 5. He's a longer hitter than me but I'm much straighter. I also know that more often than not my shot shape is the same, where as his could be anything and although I would say my short game is maybe not as good as it should be I do get up and down more often than he does.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

Sponge1980 said:



			Totally agree with this. My best mate plays off 14 and I play off 5. He's a longer hitter than me but I'm much straighter. I also know that more often than not my shot shape is the same, where as his could be anything and although I would say my short game is maybe not as good as it should be I do get up and down more often than he does.
		
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You have summed up my game in one also

Seen plenty out driving me then shoving their second in the trees etc


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 25, 2014)

The difference is keeping it in play off the tee and a better short game. Of course, the hard things to do are keep it in play off the tee and have a better short game 

It is also mentally tougher. As I am getting lower, the hardest thing to come to terms with is how little room for error I have. You can easily go from a couple under h'cap to a couple over without doing too much wrong. And of course off of 5 the buffer is only one shot and that 0.1 is much harder to get back.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 25, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			I went round in 89 at the weekend and my m8 off 6 went round in 83.

He did hit loads of greens but couldnt hole a putt.
		
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This is the difference I've found really. I can play crap and have 40 putts and still shoot at worse in the low 80's. On our course, an 82 would be -3 for a 15 handicapper. That's to say, that under tournament conditions, my very worst is still likely close to as good as what a good round from a 15 handicapper shoots. 

From a playing point of view, I'd agree with those that have said that long game helps an awful lot. Being able to reach 200+ yard par 3's with an iron, or getting up near Par 5's in two has it's advantages. That said, I can't remember the last time I had 100 yards in to a green and took more than 4 shots to finish the hole. 

This for me is a big difference. Often I find that guys off 15 can hit some great shots and make birdies. But, their bad shot can still leave them fatting it a yard, or thinning it 20 yards through, or missing the green by 30 yards left or right. From 100 yards, I'm more than disappointed if I don't hit the green, and if I do hit a bad one, at least 75% of the time I'll get it up and down to save the par.

The friends I play with off 15 ish at least once a round will hit a bad shot, then duff a chip, then chip it to 20 foot, and then have a difficult two putt. All of a sudden you've made 6 rather than 4 and there's the difference.


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2014)

It sounds ridiculously simple but the answer is 10 shots. Some low handicappers might save the majority of those 10 shots off the tee, another might have a great GIR and another might be a brilliant putter.

My FIR for last year was very poor, and always has been. My GIR is nowt startling but my putting is as hot as a hot thing on a hot day. I've seen better driving from mid handicappers, and I've seen better iron players too. But get me near or on the green.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 25, 2014)

15 handicappers an 5 handicappers are playing an entirely different game, in my opinion.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 25, 2014)

Normally about 10 years of golfing for most.

Lots of things in that time will be great/average/crap, there will be lots of equipment changes, lessons, short cuts, grip changes, adjustable drivers, good tips, bad tips, tips that work for a bit, then dispensed with, swing changes,loss of form, injury, age, dodgy knees,wind,rain,hail and snow. Beer helps. Most of all, enjoy the journey.

Good luck it'll drive you mad.


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## Wayman (Mar 25, 2014)

Massive difference between 15 and 5

Even big difference between 5 & 9


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## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			I went round in 89 at the weekend and my m8 off 6 went round in 83.

He did hit loads of greens but couldnt hole a putt.
		
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I would guess that you thought you played well shooting 89 where your " mate"

Prob thought he played like a numpty and would have gone up .0.1


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## Johnny Bravo (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes there is a big difference both on ball striking and course management and would be noticeable after only a few holes, I would expect a 5 handicap player to be no more than 9-10 over on a bad day and a 15 handicap player at least 22 over on a bad day and about 12-13 over on his best day.


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## garyinderry (Mar 25, 2014)

more often than not low handicaps, even when they knock it trouble off the tee, still make bogey at worst. 

mids tend to compound the error or lack a bit of ability to get it down in 3 from 150 yards or so.


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## bluewolf (Mar 25, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It is also mentally tougher. As I am getting lower, the hardest thing to come to terms with is how little room for error I have. You can easily go from a couple under h'cap to a couple over without doing too much wrong. And of course off of 5 the buffer is only one shot and that 0.1 is much harder to get back.
		
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This is exactly what is crucifying me at the moment. It's such a mental difference, even from 10 - 6. I need to learn to think positively, but at the moment I'm fighting a mental battle to play each shot, because all I'm seeing is the potential for a sizeable chunk of my handicap to be obliterated.. Not a fun battle, but one I plan to win sooner rather than later...


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## kid2 (Mar 25, 2014)

Wayman said:



			Massive difference between 15 and 5

Even big difference between 5 & 9
		
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Totally agree with this....
Last season I dropped from 14.6 down to 9.2...
There have been times and even this year where I still feel like I'm off 15..... If I'm not totally focused I could have the odd thin shot which sometimes wrecks an otherwise good hole...

But for Me the difference has been..... And in order of priority Course Management tying in with keeping the ball in play, proper club selection, better short game, better lag putting, getting out of bunkers in one.

Knowing where to miss and what holes I can be aggressive On or what holes I need to play safe on.....
Missing in the right place is as important as picking the right club for the shot in hand....

I have played with lads off 20 that hit the ball well but have no idea how to play once they get away from the tee.... Everything seems to revolve around strength and distance for them.... 
Also when higher handicappers miss a green its like the end of the world to them.... Like it shouldn't have happened... Whether or not this ties into them having a weaker short game or not I don't know..

I know I'm a long way off playing to a 5 handicap but you learn along the way how to score and how to manage your game better through trial and error... I think this is what separates Cat 1 golfers and improving single figure golfers from the rest.... The leave lag putts to tap in range, they leave chips closer, they hit the green more often than not from wedge distance, they stay away from sucker flags, they leave pride out of the equation in club selection, they know where to miss when they need to, and they do all this more often than not with the one ball


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## Siren (Mar 25, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			I went round in 89 at the weekend and my m8 off 6 went round in 83.

He did hit loads of greens but couldnt hole a putt.
		
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Well done fella great shooting!


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## Stuey01 (Mar 25, 2014)

There's a massive difference.  I'm off 16 and one of my regular playing partners is off 4. We hit it within a few yards distance-wise, if anything I'm a little longer,  and I can play all the same shots. But the difference is that I make many more bad swings, poorly executed shots etc. he is also a much better putter than I am. And he is very rarely in trouble off the tee.
My best is as good as his best but he is consistently much closer to his best on average whereas I have much more fluctuation in my game.
I'm improving quickly and now qualifiers have started I am hoping to get much lower this year, but under no illusions, there is a serious gulf between me and a 5 cap at the moment.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			ok its 10 shots on average so in a sense almost every other hole. In the grand scheme of things is it really that huge?

bare in mine it could be an extra chip or putt here and there
		
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At my club and I am sure at most others if you want to see a low h/capper just go to the practice ground.===There is always one honing every part of his game.===== Middle cappers outnumber low men six or seven to one in the club, but the low men outnumber them on the practice tee.===== Every part of their game is better including decision making.====== I have yet to meet a 5 H/cap that cant drive / hit good irons / short game / and be able to putt . the lower you go the bigger the gap . 5 h/cap to scratch is just as big as 15 to 5 h/cap


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## moogie (Mar 25, 2014)

There is a HUGE difference between a 15 handicapper and a 5 handicapper in just so many ways
The 5 capper is playing a different game altogether
Any 15 h/cap that thinks otherwise,  is completely deluded

The group I play with at my course range from 3-18 h/caps
It's hard to explain all the differences,  it would take forever

But here's a few
15 h/cap probs has very little idea of how far he TRULY hits each club,  mostly under clubbing because he believes he hits it SO much further
The higher h/capper tends to hit biggest club he can all of the time,  eg - par 5s,  driver,  then 3/5 wood.........when driver , 7iron then 7/8iron would do the job,  and much easier to play too......this obviously is just course management
The higher h/capper very often doesn't check the SI to see if they have a shot on a particular hole,  let alone try to use it....!!
The higher h/capper is all too often pushing for pars,  or even birdies,  when infact they should targeting a few bogeys,  and more likely picking up some pars by doing so
They are always trying to play BELOW their h/cap,  when they haven't even yet learnt how to play TO their h/cap
I even see some trying to reach par 5s in 2 shots.......!!.......why.....??......there's normally plenty danger and player more than likely has a shot on the hole......and that's how the higher h/capper runs up a big number
Lastly,  the higher h/capper very rarely knows how to just take their medicine,  and quite often compounds the error by making another,  or others.....

These are just observations from within my own group I play alongside,  and some others I've played with in away games/society games


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## 3565 (Mar 26, 2014)

15hc is 95% physical, 5% mental
5hc or Cat 1 is 5% physical, 95% mental. 

Wonders will never cease to amaze, for once I agree with Hawkeyes comment.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2014)

3565 said:



			15hc is 95% physical, 5% mental
5hc or Cat 1 is 5% physical, 95% mental. 

Wonders will never cease to amaze, for once I agree with Hawkeyes comment. 

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Maybe that's because he talks a lot of sense


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

I am biased but I think it is less than people make out. I think a majority of golfers prefer to believe it is this huge gulf in quality and put cat 1 golfers on a pedestal. Perhaps because this gives them permission to fail or not really try to push on and remain in the 12-16 range where most other golfers live.

Not picking on any individuals here so if you are in that range I am not trying to generalise and apologies if I cause any offense. The subconscious mind is a powerful thing and should not be underestimated in it's ability to give you what you 'think' you deserve.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Mar 26, 2014)

I would say it's much more than ten shots, a 5 handicapper will have a much better understanding and control of his game than a 15 h/c, and is much less likely to blow up.  My estimation is that the lower h/c will play around his handicap more regularly than the higher.


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2014)

15 Handicap plays adventurous golf
5 Handicap plays boring golf


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## NorfolkShaun (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			15 Handicap plays adventurous golf
5 Handicap plays boring golf
		
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This is a very good way of putting it, the lower guy will try to play within himself, the higher guy will sometimes try shots he is not capable of. (I know I do)


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## Sponge1980 (Mar 26, 2014)

clubchamp98 said:



			5 h/cap to scratch is just as big as 15 to 5 h/cap
		
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I agree with this too. Another guy I play regularly with is a scratch handicapper, he's never off the fairway, hardly misses a green and when he does his short game is immaculate. I often find I can keep up with him for so long but I can't keep that level up for 18 holes. He's also always working on his game.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			15 Handicap plays adventurous golf
5 Handicap plays boring golf
		
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Well summarised Bob
My mate off 3 is the most 'boring' golfer you will ever see
Fairway.....green.....2 putts....etc
Doesn't see some of the parts of the golf course the rest of us see,  ha
Yes,  he can play the odd bad one,  he is human too
But recovers so much quicker


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## Birchy (Mar 26, 2014)

moogie said:



			Well summarised Bob
My mate off 3 is the most 'boring' golfer you will ever see
Fairway.....green.....2 putts....etc
Doesn't see some of the parts of the golf course the rest of us see,  ha
Yes,  he can play the odd bad one,  he is human too
But recovers so much quicker
		
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Its true that. Think back to your best rounds. All mine I think back and realise wow that was pretty uneventful! 

I suppose uneventful is good in golf though :rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2014)

upsidedown said:



			I'd say one thing is club selection for the approach shot ( one I'm guilty of) and that is under clubbing and coming up short
		
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Agree strongly with this, your average 18 handicapper is generally two clubs short with their selection.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I am biased but I think it is less than people make out. I think a majority of golfers prefer to believe it is this huge gulf in quality and put cat 1 golfers on a pedestal. Perhaps because this gives them permission to fail or not really try to push on and remain in the 12-16 range where most other golfers live.

Not picking on any individuals here so if you are in that range I am not trying to generalise and apologies if I cause any offense. The subconscious mind is a powerful thing and should not be underestimated in it's ability to give you what you 'think' you deserve.
		
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So.......nothing to do with having a very good repetitive swing then....??
Or consistency.....??
Or good course management.....??

So,  you're saying,  any old golfer that swings it like a Numpty can get to cat 1,  he just needs to put sweet positive things/thoughts in his head,  and Hey Presto.......single figures......!!

There's a lot more to it than that
Hard work
Good practice
Play less
Practice more
That's a good start


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## Birchy (Mar 26, 2014)

Im a bit surprised by how much a lot of people seem to underestimate the difference between 15 and 5. Its all good and well saying its only this or that. Dead easy writing it down but try doing it, its much harder than that.

A bad round for a 5 capper needs to be +6 more often than not or he wont be 5 for long. Anyone who thinks going round in plus 6 is easy they are clearly off their face imo.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Im a bit surprised by how much a lot of people seem to underestimate the difference between 15 and 5. Its all good and well saying its only this or that. Dead easy writing it down but try doing it, its much harder than that.

A bad round for a 5 capper needs to be +6 more often than not or he wont be 5 for long. Anyone who thinks going round in plus 6 is easy they are clearly off their face imo.
		
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To be honest
Some of the comments are quite insulting to those that have actually got down to cat 1
We all know golfers can talk a good game,  but scorecards don't lie
I'd say to anybody that's said 'not much'. ...... Go out and do it then if it's 'not much'
Most will FAIL


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

moogie said:



			So.......nothing to do with having a very good repetitive swing then....??
Or consistency.....??
Or good course management.....??

So,  you're saying,  any old golfer that swings it like a Numpty can get to cat 1,  he just needs to put sweet positive things/thoughts in his head,  and Hey Presto.......single figures......!!

There's a lot more to it than that
Hard work
Good practice
Play less
Practice more
That's a good start
		
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a swing can be made more repetitive with better mental technique, as can consistency and certainly course management.

I do not see any golfers as numptys and yes I believe all golfers can get to cat 1.

Hard Work - requires motivation and mental toughness

Good Practice - techniques to help ingrain actions and take practice swing to the course, imagery, muscle memory, trust

Play less, practice more - very much depends on the time you have available, too much practice and you could forget that the game is about getting the ball in the hole and not creating a perfect swing. Not enough practice and it could fall apart on the course. Play often practice smarter, does not really have the same ring to it.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			a swing can be made more repetitive with better mental technique, as can consistency and certainly course management.

I do not see any golfers as numptys and* yes I believe all golfers can get to cat 1.*

Hard Work - requires motivation and mental toughness

Good Practice - techniques to help ingrain actions and take practice swing to the course, imagery, muscle memory, trust

Play less, practice more - very much depends on the time you have available, too much practice and you could forget that the game is about getting the ball in the hole and not creating a perfect swing. Not enough practice and it could fall apart on the course. Play often practice smarter, does not really have the same ring to it.
		
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Look
I know that's your stance
And u have an angle ,  to sell
But I'm gonna have to agree to disagree

Most of the above is utter B S 

But, that's just MY opinion of course


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## guest100718 (Mar 26, 2014)

a 15s good days will be the same score as a 5 bad days. give or take a shot.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			a swing can be made more repetitive with better mental technique, as can consistency and certainly course management.

I do not see any golfers as numptys and yes I believe all golfers can get to cat 1.

Hard Work - requires motivation and mental toughness

Good Practice - techniques to help ingrain actions and take practice swing to the course, imagery, muscle memory, trust

Play less, practice more - very much depends on the time you have available, too much practice and you could forget that the game is about getting the ball in the hole and not creating a perfect swing. Not enough practice and it could fall apart on the course. Play often practice smarter, does not really have the same ring to it.
		
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If you are that sure of the words you are writing and believe this to be so
Perhaps you could take on 2 locals,  from your area,  off the Forum,  and use them as an experiment,  case study,  for us all to follow their progress......??
Would certainly be an interesting project for a lot on here to see results


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## Slab (Mar 26, 2014)

A number of differences already noted (and perhaps this wasn't the point of the thread) but the lowest handicap golfers I know well, (off 6&3) neither of them are brand junkies & both carry assorted 'dated' clubs in equally dated bags (they don't know each other) and I know many teen handicappers and higher who have lots of shiney clubs/bags

Maybe just coincidence though


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## kozmos (Mar 26, 2014)

Such a good question.... For me the 5 capper is (zoned in) completely on where he wants the ball to go on 90% of his shots, having a positive memory bank of previous situations, whereas the 15 capper is (zoned in) maybe 75% where he wants the ball to go and the other 25% focusing on where he doesn't want the ball to go. Another thing I've noticed is when I was off 15, most knocks I'd be straight on the tee last minute no warm up and 2 quick putts on the practice green if I'm lucky. Now if possible i'm at the club with at least 45 minutes to spare and find my rhythm... still a long way to go and many many hours of practice to reach cat 1 though, bring it on!!


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

moogie said:



			Look
I know that's your stance
And u have an angle ,  to sell
But I'm gonna have to agree to disagree

Most of the above is utter B S 

But, that's just MY opinion of course
		
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I do not have an angle and I am not trying to sell anything on the forum, I give my opinions freely to try and help people and because I enjoy it.



moogie said:



			If you are that sure of the words you are writing and believe this to be so
Perhaps you could take on 2 locals,  from your area,  off the Forum,  and use them as an experiment,  case study,  for us all to follow their progress......??
Would certainly be an interesting project for a lot on here to see results
		
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So after saying what I do and say is total BS you then want me to give hours of my time to help people for free just to prove a point? Do you ask the coach or Bob to teach people for free when they post about a technique to prove it works? 

If you are interested I have a blog on my website which I am currently posting a clients sessions as a case study which will perhaps give you a better understanding of golf psychology.

http://www.thegolfpsychologist.co.uk/blog/


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Big difference between 15 and 5 in terms of consistency (hours of practice) , course management and mental fortitude. 

A 5 will have a swing which is more repeatable (not necessarily better looking)  resulting in fewer duffs and fewer bad shots back to back. Meaning a 5's powers of recovery will be better, making sensible choices in order to minimise damage. ie "I'll take a bogey here and will pick a birdie later" mindset rather than to try to hard to rescue a par and end up with a double. Whilst a 15 is more likely to compound one error with another.

The 5 will also probably cope better under pressure or in bad situations due to the extra confidence that he/she has in their own ability.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm off 6 and playing partner CVG is off 14, so not quite on the numbers but not far off.
Assuming we both come in with nett par in a Medal these will be the main differences in me being 8 shots better.
1. Distance.
I hit it further, at least a club further. So on our 3 long par 4's I can make the green in 2 - he simply can't. 
2. Short game. 
I hit it closer more often, taking 2 to get down rather than 3
3. Putting
Although he is a decent putter from distance, he pulls at least 3-4 close range putts every round. Averages 30-34 ppr in my favour.
3. Duffs
He will duff one or 2 more than me.
4. Driving
To pull a couple of shots back for him, he will generally be in the fairway almost every time - I won't!

That, for me, is the difference


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I am biased but I think it is less than people make out. I think a majority of golfers prefer to believe it is this huge gulf in quality and put cat 1 golfers on a pedestal. Perhaps because this gives them permission to fail or not really try to push on and remain in the 12-16 range where most other golfers live.

Not picking on any individuals here so if you are in that range I am not trying to generalise and apologies if I cause any offense. The subconscious mind is a powerful thing and should not be underestimated in it's ability to give you what you 'think' you deserve.
		
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Sorry Greg, while I firmly believe there is a mental aspect, it is much more than that. You can't turn any old 15 handicapper into a 5 handicapper just by getting him\her to think better.

I do agree that your subconscious can restrict you, since my cut last year I described my previous handicap of 10 as a comfort blanket. I knew I was better than 10 but I allowed myself to think like a 10 handicapper. I now play just as well to 7/8 as I did to 10/11 because I have to. Getting from 7/8 to 5 is a whole different ball game and the only way I am going to get anywhere near to that is to improve my game. It is easier for a 15 handicapper to get to 8 than it is for an 8 handicapper to get to 5 - a lot easier.

Cat 1 golfers are on a pedestal because it is damn hard to get and stay there and no amount of psychology is going to make that jump without the game to back it up.


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## ForeRighty (Mar 26, 2014)

15 handicappers don't realise a bogey is a good result on 15 holes they constantly expect more! Difference between 5 and 15 is night and day not even comparable in my opinion.


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## Mail Man (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I do not have an angle and I am not trying to sell anything on the forum, I give my opinions freely to try and help people and because I enjoy it.



So after saying what I do and say is total BS you then want me to give hours of my time to help people for free just to prove a point? Do you ask the coach or Bob to teach people for free when they post about a technique to prove it works? 

If you are interested I have a blog on my website which I am currently posting a clients sessions as a case study which will perhaps give you a better understanding of golf psychology.

http://www.thegolfpsychologist.co.uk/blog/

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Sorry but I have to agree with Moogie, I was always told in life never ask someone to do something  that you wouldn't do yourself or could do yourself yet you claim to be able to turn a 20+ handicap into a 5 handicap taking your advice. How does that work given you current handicap, how long have you been playing and what makes you think you can transform someones game.

There is a certain amount of talent required to play golf and not everyone who plays golf has the ability to be good at it and there are professional coaches out there who would not even consider making the claims you are making.


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## moogie (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I do not have an angle and I am not trying to sell anything on the forum, I give my opinions freely to try and help people and because I enjoy it.



So after saying what I do and say is total BS you then want me to give hours of my time to help people for free just to prove a point? Do you ask the coach or Bob to teach people for free when they post about a technique to prove it works? 

If you are interested I have a blog on my website which I am currently posting a clients sessions as a case study which will perhaps give you a better understanding of golf psychology.

http://www.thegolfpsychologist.co.uk/blog/

Click to expand...



I NEVER once said you were selling ON the forum,  just you have a belief to 'sell' in your occupation

I've NEVER asked Bob to teach anything for free,  simply because he has never made bold statements that are so left field and full of cat1 promises if you were to do it

Out of interest
If you just practiced half of what you preached,  what is stopping you getting lower.......??

I've seen golfers come and go
Mostly because they thought the game was easy,  it isn't,  it's the total opposite
When they weren't seeing huge progress,  they have walked

I just think your thinking is OTT for recreational golfers
Which we all are
Guys playing for millions on tour may well need that kind of help
Weekend warriors.........nah,  don't think so


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## MendieGK (Mar 26, 2014)

Wayman said:



			Massive difference between 15 and 5

Even big difference between 5 & 9
		
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Ive had this conversation with people a few times in the past. I've always felt that the further you go down the bigger the difference gets:

The difference between 28-18 is fairly minimal
18-12 fairly large
12-9 quite a lot
9-5 huge
5 - scratch - massive
scratch to pro - probably the biggest of the lot.

playing off 4 people often say 'why dont you turn pro'. other than the fact i dont wish to sell mars bars for a living, i usually explain that the difference between me and a tour pro is probably 12-15shots per round. If i shot level par on a course off the whites (6600yds for example) i would fully expect a pro to shoot -8 at a minimum.

in terms of actual difference in ability between 15-5 i would say its little things like - not using your shots properly. if you get a shot - use it. dont take the 190yd 4iron out of the rough shot on. knock it down there, pitch on and 2putt at worst for 2pts (or net par). i would expect 30% of the time you will make the putt for par meaning lots of net birdies with little risk of a double bogey. you only need 39pts a round to come down .9 each round!


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			Sorry but I have to agree with Moogie, I was always told in life never ask someone to do something  that you wouldn't do yourself or could do yourself yet you claim to be able to turn a 20+ handicap into a 5 handicap taking your advice. How does that work given you current handicap, how long have you been playing and what makes you think you can transform someones game.

There is a certain amount of talent required to play golf and not everyone who plays golf has the ability to be good at it and there are professional coaches out there who would not even consider making the claims you are making.
		
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My immediate response to a mid or high handicapper would be to find another coach as that one is no good for you. 

I am not going to bore you with the ins and outs of my own game and what had held me back recently but this year I am fully committed to do exactly what I say so I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens over the next year or two. At the moment though I am a much better psychologist than I am a golfer and my understanding on the mental aspects of golf gives me certain opinions that others without that knowledge will naturally disagree with.


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## didsbury_duffer (Mar 26, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			ok its 10 shots on average so in a sense almost every other hole. In the grand scheme of things is it really that huge?

bare in mine it could be an extra chip or putt here and there
		
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Simple answer...YES.


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## Birchy (Mar 26, 2014)

didsbury_duffer said:



			Simple answer...YES.
		
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Like it


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## Mail Man (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			My immediate response to a mid or high handicapper would be to find another coach as that one is no good for you. 

I am not going to bore you with the ins and outs of my own game and what had held me back recently but this year I am fully committed to do exactly what I say so I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens over the next year or two. At the moment though I am a much better psychologist than I am a golfer and my understanding on the mental aspects of golf gives me certain opinions that others without that knowledge will naturally disagree with.
		
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Fair Play to you on the psychologist part and I am sure that this will help a lot of players but like I said there is a natural talent involved and without that then nothing you teach will help them that much.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

moogie said:



			I NEVER once said you were selling ON the forum,  just you have a belief to 'sell' in your occupation

I've NEVER asked Bob to teach anything for free,  simply because he has never made bold statements that are so left field and full of cat1 promises if you were to do it

Out of interest
If you just practiced half of what you preached,  what is stopping you getting lower.......??

I've seen golfers come and go
Mostly because they thought the game was easy,  it isn't,  it's the total opposite
When they weren't seeing huge progress,  they have walked

I just think your thinking is OTT for recreational golfers
Which we all are
Guys playing for millions on tour may well need that kind of help
Weekend warriors.........nah,  don't think so
		
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again I feel my posts are being taken out of context which may be my own fault for not being clear enough. I do not beleive all you need to do is improve your mental game to drop from 15-5. It tales hard work and dedication and most likely all aspects of your game would need to improve, some more than others, but most likely every one to some extent. If that is how I came across then again I apologise and did not mean to cause offense to low handicap golfers by belittling their achievements.

What I do believe is that by working on the mental aspects of the game, which are often overlooked, can increase motivation, confidence, trust, mental toughness, performing under pressure, controlling emotions, focus, clear thinking. I could go on and on but the point is that you can improve all aspects of physical technique by employing certain aspects of sport psychology into your game. How effective they will be and how far they will take you is reliant on a number of other factors but the potential is there in us all. I have personally never seen a golfer that can't physically play to category 1 level.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2014)

If you are a 15 h'capper, and wanting to get to 10 you have to shoot approx 20 under your h'cap to get the cuts you need to achieve that. To get from 10 to 5, you need to shoot 25 under your h'cap to get there. To get from 5 to scratch you have to shoot 50 under your handicap. 

Sounds easy doesn't it.... BUT how often in a year do you shoot the scores needed to come down 5 shots, and how many 0.1's  get thrown back at you in during that time, and how many buffers? 

The lower you go the harder it gets, if only from the change in calculating the cuts. And then you can add in the physical difficulty, e.g. that 450yd par 4 you can't reach and had a shot on and now don't - there's also a mental aspect to suddenly not getting a shot on what you have always felt is a difficult hole.

Then there's what you compete against when off 5. Go and watch a head to head in your local league. 2 low handicappers playing together know that a bogey will almost certainly lose a hole. Imagine going to the turn in level par, and halving every hole, then playing the back 9 in 1 under and halving every hole... the mental toughness to do that is immense - sweaty palms/squeaky bum and nerves of steel. The buzz is immense but the concentration required... Your 10 handicapper would be beaten by the 13th hole, even on his good day because he'd crumble under that barrage.


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## garyinderry (Mar 26, 2014)

playing to cat 1 or shooting 5 over.  two very different things. 

if someone can hit it 200 yards then they can physically play to cat 1.  It will be very hard but yes they could hit it far enough that they could get it round in 5 over. 

to have the skill to knock it round in 5 over most rounds is something quite a number of people will never achieve. its a pretty darn difficult thing to do. 

The main thing here is skill. not psychical ability, not mental toughness and know how.  a certain degree of that you cannot teach.  you can unlock your potential, but everyone will have a threshold.


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## Region3 (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I am biased but I think it is less than people make out. I think a majority of golfers prefer to believe it is this huge gulf in quality and put cat 1 golfers on a pedestal. Perhaps because this gives them permission to fail or not really try to push on and remain in the 12-16 range where most other golfers live.

Not picking on any individuals here so if you are in that range I am not trying to generalise and apologies if I cause any offense. The subconscious mind is a powerful thing and should not be underestimated in it's ability to give you what you 'think' you deserve.
		
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Wow. That is all.


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## Spear-Chucker (Mar 26, 2014)

Not being facecious but the difference is simply 10 shots. Those 10 shots are, however, (from my experience, at least) comprised of different elements which have varying levels of importance:

1. Technically, the differences are small - 15 and 5's can all hit nice tee shots, bunker shots, putts, chips etc. 5's will be a little longer, generally hit approach shots a few yrds closer, 1-2 up and downs more. Small differences that all add up

2. 5's will be better at practicing, larger difference - quality over quantity to use a hoary old chestnut

3. 5's poor shots will be quite a lot better than a 15's poor shots - larger difference, again

4. 5's will be significantly better at managing their game (whatever they have on a particular day, that is) and applying it to the course

5. 5's will have a go-to shot from the tee for when they are unsure of what to do (3w, 5w, hybrid or long iron)

Finally, lower handicaps don't necessarily have better mental games from my experience - they too feel nerves, beat themselves up and generally get in the way of a good game. I've played with some right herberts 5 and less. They will however put events behind them quicker. 

The best golfers I see (for their handicap, level of ability/skill etc; they range from 26 to +4) are the ones who can maximise their potential _allied to _excellent mental skills - and that includes all of the elements in G_Mulligans list in #70. To test this out, just listen to how pp's/opponents talk to themselves during a round. You can usually tell who is strong and who isn't (useful for matchplay so you can see how and when to apply pressure).


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## shewy (Mar 26, 2014)

Well IMO opinion it's consistency,I shot 87 yesterday bang on my handicap, I had around 4 fat chips and a few 3 putts,I was never in trouble off the tee although I was way back as I was using a 3 wood.take out the fat shots and the 3. Putts and I'm in the 70's. A 5 hc per will not make these errors.


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## Rooter (Mar 26, 2014)

as a 15 handicap i can justifiably answer this, i have had rounds with Imurg and Fundy, both around 5 ish iirc. huge difference in consistency, expectations, execution and just general play. like many have put already, i will probably take on the wonder shot, ok i might do it the odd time, but most likely end up in more trouble and end up with double bogey at best. I dont think in 3 rounds i saw imurg or fundy make worse than bogey. 

yes i can score birdies, even set up the odd eagle chance! but the next hole (s) i can score double or worse quite easily.

For me the differentiators are :

course management (not taking on stupid or high risk shots)
quality of short game
number of putts
consistency off the tee (for example, i probably out drove both fundy and imurg, but who was on the fairway at a comfortable distance to the green?!)
then just limiting silly mistakes such as duffs or thins etc, i will do 4-5 a round, they might do 1..

Huge gulf between 15-5 in my opinion.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2014)

Rooter said:



			as a 15 handicap i can justifiably answer this, 

Huge gulf between 15-5 in my opinion.
		
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As a 5, and lower, of many many years, I feel I have an insight into where many 15 handicappers could really improve - and please don't see it as a Cat 1 being arrogant. My view also goes some way in supporting Greg Mulligan's line. 

1) Stop beating yourselve's up after a bad shot - it screws you up for several shots afterwards. 
2) Trust your swing - your good shots are your true potential. The more you trust, the more you will repeat.
3) Learn to concentrate when you need to concentrate - its impossible to keep a really high level of concentration for 4 hrs but you can do it for 18 holes if you learn to switch it off between shots. You need a trigger thought to switch you into the 'zone.'
4) You can't change the last shot but you can change the outcome of the next shot, positively, if you concentrate on the right things.
5) You do it for fun, so learn to laugh at yourself - laughter, even the wry kind, will help you relax.
6) Be realistic with your goals. If you set achieveable goals, you will succeed more and success breeds success.

That said, you need a decent repeatable technique AND a good head. A flaw in either will stop you reaching your true potential.


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## Rooter (Mar 26, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			As a 5, and lower, of many many years, I feel I have an insight into where many 15 handicappers could really improve - and please don't see it as a Cat 1 being arrogant. My view also goes some way in supporting Greg Mulligan's line. 

1) Stop beating yourselve's up after a bad shot - it screws you up for several shots afterwards. 
2) Trust your swing - your good shots are your true potential. The more you trust, the more you will repeat.
3) Learn to concentrate when you need to concentrate - its impossible to keep a really high level of concentration for 4 hrs but you can do it for 18 holes if you learn to switch it off between shots. You need a trigger thought to switch you into the 'zone.'
4) You can't change the last shot but you can change the outcome of the next shot, positively, if you concentrate on the right things.
5) You do it for fun, so learn to laugh at yourself - laughter, even the wry kind, will help you relax.
6) Be realistic with your goals. If you set achieveable goals, you will succeed more and success breeds success.

That said, you need a decent repeatable technique AND a good head. A flaw in either will stop you reaching your true potential.
		
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Nail hit firmly on the head there. close the thread!


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

Using the formula for handicaps that SwingsitlikeHogan (I think) posted a couple of months back a 15 handicapper should average 20.25 shots over SSS/CSS while a 5 handicapper should average 7.75 over so the difference isn't 10 but 12.5!


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## nickyj4 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Your 10 handicapper would be beaten by the 13th hole, even on his good day because he'd crumble under that barrage.
		
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So what you are saying is that because you are playing off 5 then you are mentally tougher than me because I play off 15, what a load of garbage and quite frankly down right insulting. I agree that the gap between 5 and 15 is not as small as some think, I'm aiming for the green they are aiming for the flag. Thats a massive difference but it does not mean im mentally weak


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## davidy233 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			As a 5, and lower, of many many years, I feel I have an insight into where many 15 handicappers could really improve - and please don't see it as a Cat 1 being arrogant. My view also goes some way in supporting Greg Mulligan's line. 

1) Stop beating yourselve's up after a bad shot - it screws you up for several shots afterwards. 
2) Trust your swing - your good shots are your true potential. The more you trust, the more you will repeat.
3) Learn to concentrate when you need to concentrate - its impossible to keep a really high level of concentration for 4 hrs but you can do it for 18 holes if you learn to switch it off between shots. You need a trigger thought to switch you into the 'zone.'
4) You can't change the last shot but you can change the outcome of the next shot, positively, if you concentrate on the right things.
5) You do it for fun, so learn to laugh at yourself - laughter, even the wry kind, will help you relax.
6) Be realistic with your goals. If you set achieveable goals, you will succeed more and success breeds success.

That said, you need a decent repeatable technique AND a good head. A flaw in either will stop you reaching your true potential.
		
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I'd agree with all of that - except that nearly all the five/six handicap golfers I've played with were big hitters who took risks, basically they are that handicap through talent, either improving or just hit their limit.

Guys three hcp and below I've encountered fit your description exactly - From what I've seen there's a big, big difference between 15 and 5 and even bigger between 5 and scratch.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2014)

nickyj4 said:



			So what you are saying is that because you are playing off 5 then you are mentally tougher than me because I play off 15, what a load of garbage and quite frankly down right insulting. I agree that the gap between 5 and 15 is not as small as some think, I'm aiming for the green they are aiming for the flag. Thats a massive difference but it does not mean im mentally weak
		
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:rofl: You've answered the point yourself - too sensitive. And I didn't say you are mentally weak. When you have a low handicapper throw his best game at you, middle off fairway/next to the flag/pinching holes against your shots, you will start thinking more about his game than your own... and the same thing applies for a 5 playing a scratch. I've suffered it and dished it... but hey, feel free to agree to differ if it helps.


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## nickyj4 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			:rofl: You've answered the point yourself - too sensitive. And I didn't say you are mentally weak. When you have a low handicapper throw his best game at you, middle off fairway/next to the flag/pinching holes against your shots, you will start thinking more about his game than your own... and the same thing applies for a 5 playing a scratch. I've suffered it and dished it... but hey, feel free to agree to differ if it helps.
		
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Not really, thats why I have ten shots to play with over a five handicapper.


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## bluewolf (Mar 26, 2014)

nickyj4 said:



			Not really, thats why I have ten shots to play with over a five handicapper.
		
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The point of the thread is whether the difference between a 15 and 5 capper is merely 10 shots, or is it something more than that. Most think it's more than just the 10 shots, some don't. Variety is the spice of life and all that eh?


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## 3565 (Mar 26, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Maybe that's because he talks a lot of sense 

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And of course, I don't! :ears:


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## ger147 (Mar 26, 2014)

The main thing for me is consistency.  On average (if there is such a thing), a 5 is likely to be a bit better at every aspect of the game than a 15, but it is their consistency at being that bit better at all of those aspects almost all of the time which makes the biggest difference.

If I look at my own scores, even if I take my best round of the season so far which is a 79 gross (Par 70 so +9), I still had a quadruple bogey from a tee shot that split the fairway and 2 other double bogeys.  A 5 wouldn't run up those sorts of scores from those positions.  Only once in 10 rounds have I managed a round with no worse than a bogey on my card where as a 5 can do that most of the time, round after round after round.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2014)

I got to six by knowing my game and becoming more consistent.  I drifted to 13 by not playing and getting it back by playing again.  So last year to 10 and this year with any luck and with playing maybe to 8.  Better than 8 I know would require me to play more golf than I have time for.  I'm not sure that I have the game to get to 5 without a lot of playing.


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## nickyj4 (Mar 26, 2014)

I agree with that, although I think the lower handicappers consistency comes from being able to replicate the same swing over and over again. I know that hitting my best shot I could probably match most low figure golfers, but I cant guarantee that I will hit that shot over and over again. So lessons and practice as the others guys have said is the way forward for me this year


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## 3565 (Mar 26, 2014)

Ian Poulter. Turned pro at 4, not blessed with the greatest looking swings but it works for him, but what he had was self belief that he could cut the mustard with the big boys and with a lot of hard work and dedication and strong will, he's our talisman for the Ryder Cup. 
Now being a Cat 1 takes, a certain amount of natural ability, but you also require mental ability to. The better you get the more options are open to you, the more info you have to process. It boils down to the lower you get the less mistakes you can make and get away with, the more the mentality comes into it as in decision making for that moment. It's a combination of technically sound fundamentals and swing and a strong will of mind to deal with how you react to certain situations your faced with. 

I think it's possible for a 15 to get to 5, but he will over a period of time have to evaluate his game, technique at the appropiate times as his hc starts to come down. There will always be a plateau at some point that you have to deal with and that becomes a mentality issue rather then technique. But ultimately it's down to, not necessarily hard work, but constructive practise, playing and development on your psychology side as well.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 26, 2014)

Haven't read all the replies so apologies if it has been said , the difference between 15 & 5 is massive   ...

Ability to perform regularly at 5 compared to 15 ... miles apart . in fact worlds apart .. 

the only thing the game of a 15 handicapper & a 5 handicapper have in common is the name ..GOLF


even the difference between 7 & 5 is a good bit when your trying to achieve it (5 not 7 )


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## Duckster (Mar 26, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ian Poulter. Turned pro at 4, not blessed with the greatest looking swings but it works for him, but what he had was self belief that he could cut the mustard with the big boys and with a lot of hard work and dedication and strong will, he's our talisman for the Ryder Cup. 
Now being a Cat 1 takes, a certain amount of natural ability, but you also require mental ability to. The better you get the more options are open to you, the more info you have to process. It boils down to the lower you get the less mistakes you can make and get away with, the more the mentality comes into it as in decision making for that moment. It's a combination of technically sound fundamentals and swing and a strong will of mind to deal with how you react to certain situations your faced with. 

I think it's possible for a 15 to get to 5, but he will over a period of time have to evaluate his game, technique at the appropiate times as his hc starts to come down. There will always be a plateau at some point that you have to deal with and that becomes a mentality issue rather then technique. But ultimately it's down to, not necessarily hard work, but constructive practise, playing and development on your psychology side as well.
		
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Poulter's even said that his brother is a better golfer than him, but put them in a competition and it's Ian that has the mental "I'm going to beat you" attitude.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 26, 2014)

Duckster said:



			Poulter's even said that his brother is a better golfer than him, but put them in a competition and it's Ian that has the mental "I'm going to beat you" attitude.
		
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The four thing is also a bit misleading. I can't find the interview but I read somewhere that while he was officially off of 4, didn't play many competitions when working as an assistant so never came down. Through practice and playing after work he was considerably better than his handicap when he turned pro.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 26, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			even the difference between 7 & 5 is a good bit when your trying to achieve it (5 not 7 )
		
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I'll second that! We'll get there though!

ne:


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## dontfancythisputt (Mar 26, 2014)

nickyj4 said:



			I'm aiming for the green they are aiming for the flag.
		
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IMO,in a lot of cases this would be the other way round.

The 5 handicapper will be aiming at a spot that they know, if missed will leave a better chance of an up and down. At my place on one hole most low handicappers even consider missing the green to be safest way to achieve par, especially in summer when the ball wonâ€™t stick as easy.

I try and follow the low guys, miss that spot and end up hitting the green


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## the smiling assassin (Mar 26, 2014)

heres a question, is the diff between a 15 handicap and a 5 that big?
		
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yes. it's very, very big. assuming of course, that both players have 'plateau'd' around those numbers.
a golfer playing off 15.0 would need to shoot a minimum aggregate total of 44 strokes under handicap over however many rounds to achieve a handicap of 5.4 - without any ESR / Annual review adjustments. That means turning round that stroke average of 20.25 over par mentioned earlier to well below 15 - in fact, around 7.75 according to the stats noted earlier.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 26, 2014)

I think all the answers are in the replys.
However when I was a 12 handicapper I used to beat myself up when things went wrong,
and steadily during the round it got worse and I got frustrated.
I knew I was better than a 12 handicap but I didn't know mentally how to get to single figures.
When I finally was able to control my emotions my handicap soon came down.
Now im 6 im confident I will get lower,now im able to control my emotions I know its just
a matter of time.


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2014)

I guess the only people who really know the answer to this question are those who have been off 15 AND 5. They know how much work it took to lose the 10 shots


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			I guess the only people who really know the answer to this question are those who have been off 15 AND 5. They know how much work it took to lose the 10 shots
		
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Very little, was young and got by on natural ability and plenty of time on the golf course. Have now started on the reverse journey, expect this one may not be too tricky either lol


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			I guess the only people who really know the answer to this question are those who have been off 15 AND 5. They know how much work it took to lose the 10 shots
		
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Personally it took lot's of work, lessons, the practice ground and spending more days at the course than anywhere else, should point out that working job that doesn't start till 3pm helps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The four thing is also a bit misleading. I can't find the interview but I read somewhere that while he was officially off of 4, didn't play many competitions when working as an assistant so never came down. Through practice and playing after work he was considerably better than his handicap when he turned pro.
		
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It's very misleading 

He was easily a scratch golfer and prob more but didn't bother with comps 

He was a nightmare in the shop ( never bloody there - always practising on the little range and on the putting green ) 

His brother can hit it as far and is a great ball striker but Poulters short game is outstanding


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			I guess the only people who really know the answer to this question are those who have been off 15 AND 5. They know how much work it took to lose the 10 shots
		
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Took lots of time on the golf course


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 26, 2014)

bobmac said:



			I guess the only people who really know the answer to this question are those who have been off 15 AND 5. They know how much work it took to lose the 10 shots
		
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That counts me out, I've never had a handicap of 15 or 5. My journey from 9, up to 13 and back down to 8 has been a long and painful one though


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## GeneralStore (Mar 26, 2014)

A very interesting thread! I dont know what it takes to get to 5, hopefully one day I will, but I have played a fair bit of golf with golfers of that level and what never ceases to amaze me is how much 'safer' they play as opposed to myself. Which means they mostly always keep the ball in play. Afterwards I think about it and I laugh because there is a golfer playing to 5 and he is looking where he can miss it and even if he makes a bad swing still has a shot and there I end up pulling a nicely hit drive and having to reload. Its course management, but advanced course management and course management when things are going against you and you are having an off-day.

So in my inexperienced opinion, the differences in order of significance are:
1) Course Management
2) Repeatable technique
3) Short Game


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## patricks148 (Mar 26, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			Sorry but I have to agree with Moogie, I was always told in life never ask someone to do something  that you wouldn't do yourself or could do yourself yet you claim to be able to turn a 20+ handicap into a 5 handicap taking your advice. How does that work given you current handicap, how long have you been playing and what makes you think you can transform someones game.

There is a certain amount of talent required to play golf and not everyone who plays golf has the ability to be good at it and there are professional coaches out there who would not even consider making the claims you are making.
		
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Me too, I'm only a whisker away, and find it amusing how someone off 26 is saying that its not much of a difference...
when you get down to 15 (if) dear boy... you will still have a long way to go


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 26, 2014)

i accept that course management is a factor, but when i see people suggesting that it is the key difference between 15 and 5 handicappers, i question in my mind what these people get up to on the golf course. 

decent course management is pretty self evident to anyone with half an ounce of common sense and a handicap below 14. what course management decisions are people making that costs them so many shots?


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 26, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Me too, I'm only a whisker away, and find it amusing how someone off 26 is saying that its not much of a difference...
when you get down to 15 (if) dear boy... you will still have a long way to go

Click to expand...

to be fair to the OP i don't think he suggested that it wasn't such a big difference, just that it "could seem" to be not such a big difference when the 10 shots could really be not much more that lipping out on 4 foot putts on every other hole. in essence that the 10 shots difference could be nothing more than 10 tap ins. but in reality we know the ability gap is huge.

to me it's mainly about consistency of good strike, and seeing as a good strike is only cm away from a shank, attaining that consistency requires practice, willingness to learn and adjust, and a good dollop of ability to begin with.

short game too is about consistency of strike, avoiding the thins, fats etc that cost strokes around the green.

putting also is primarily about consistency of stroke for me. poor putters impact the face all over the place, a good putter will be sweetspot most of the time.

now i recall an article on wrx that put impact tape on a range of handicappers' drivers. there was a very very strong relation between consistent proximity to the centre of the face and handicap level.


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## rksquire (Mar 26, 2014)

Biggest difference might be just how sensitive, or not, they are....


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Me too, I'm only a whisker away, and find it amusing how someone off 26 is saying that its not much of a difference...
when you get down to 15 (if) dear boy... you will still have a long way to go

Click to expand...

do you think it helps 15 handicap golfers to think it is this vast chasm that only the naturally talented can ever hope to cross? Do you think it helps motivation to practice if you think it is going to be the most difficult thing you have ever done and will break your back your hands and your soul to get even close to the hallowed ground that cat 1 golfers walk on? 

I never once said it was easy and I have said through my posts that I do not mean to offend low handicap golfers by denigrating their achievements. Yes it is tough, and it takes dedication, persistence, motivation, and plenty of other attributes which goes along with hours and hours of practice. But do you really think it is another sport like others have said? That it is so far away from each other that they are not recognisable?

My job is about helping golfers reach their potential, go ahead and scoff that my own potential/ability as a golfer has not been met yet it makes no difference to me. Sometimes it helps to inject some realism into the mix so they know how hard it will be at times but for the most part I remove barriers as people tend to put them up more often than not. I know for a fact that if someone can shoot par on a given hole then they have the ability to be a cat 1 golfer. I will believe that until the day I die or until I see some very convincing evidence to the contrary which to this point has not even come close.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			do you think it helps 15 handicap golfers to think it is this vast chasm that only the naturally talented can ever hope to cross? Do you think it helps motivation to practice if you think it is going to be the most difficult thing you have ever done and will break your back your hands and your soul to get even close to the hallowed ground that cat 1 golfers walk on? 

I never once said it was easy and I have said through my posts that I do not mean to offend low handicap golfers by denigrating their achievements. Yes it is tough, and it takes dedication, persistence, motivation, and plenty of other attributes which goes along with hours and hours of practice. But do you really think it is another sport like others have said? That it is so far away from each other that they are not recognisable?

My job is about helping golfers reach their potential, go ahead and scoff that my own potential/ability as a golfer has not been met yet it makes no difference to me. Sometimes it helps to inject some realism into the mix so they know how hard it will be at times but for the most part I remove barriers as people tend to put them up more often than not. I know for a fact that if someone can shoot par on a given hole then they have the ability to be a cat 1 golfer. I will believe that until the day I die or until I see some very convincing evidence to the contrary which to this point has not even come close.
		
Click to expand...

I have to ask - have you used the methods you teach ? Why are you still a 26 handicapper ? 

Ability is the biggest reason why someone gets down to cat 1 - having a strong mind will help - hence the word "help" but without a natural ability to strike a golf ball then people won't get down to cat 1.

With all due respect - unless you have reached cat 1 I don't think you will truly understand how hard it is and how much work hitting a golf ball it took. 

I took no "mind lessons" because I could never see the benefit - and I still don't now. 

There is no substitute to natural ability


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## patricks148 (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			do you think it helps 15 handicap golfers to think it is this vast chasm that only the naturally talented can ever hope to cross? Do you think it helps motivation to practice if you think it is going to be the most difficult thing you have ever done and will break your back your hands and your soul to get even close to the hallowed ground that cat 1 golfers walk on? 

I never once said it was easy and I have said through my posts that I do not mean to offend low handicap golfers by denigrating their achievements. Yes it is tough, and it takes dedication, persistence, motivation, and plenty of other attributes which goes along with hours and hours of practice. But do you really think it is another sport like others have said? That it is so far away from each other that they are not recognisable?

My job is about helping golfers reach their potential, go ahead and scoff that my own potential/ability as a golfer has not been met yet it makes no difference to me. Sometimes it helps to inject some realism into the mix so they know how hard it will be at times but for the most part I remove barriers as people tend to put them up more often than not. I know for a fact that if someone can shoot par on a given hole then they have the ability to be a cat 1 golfer. I will believe that until the day I die or until I see some very convincing evidence to the contrary which to this point has not even come close.
		
Click to expand...

How can someone having a single par tell you they can get another 18 or so in the same round?

You are simply pedeling your business on here giving false hope IMO. There are plenty of guys around who will prob never even make a teen handicap let alone cat 1.  you have to have some ability pure and simple and to make the comment along the lines of its not as hard as guys  make out, when you yourself are further away from a 15 handicap than the 15 handicap is from cat 1. says it all.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have to ask - have you used the methods you teach ? Why are you still a 26 handicapper ? 

Ability is the biggest reason why someone gets down to cat 1 - having a strong mind will help - hence the word "help" but without a natural ability to strike a golf ball then people won't get down to cat 1.

With all due respect - unless you have reached cat 1 I don't think you will truly understand how hard it is and how much work hitting a golf ball it took. 

I took no "mind lessons" because I could never see the benefit - and I still don't now. 

There is no substitute to natural ability
		
Click to expand...

you contradict yourself by saying it took a lot of hard work and there being no substitute for natural ability, which is it? Is there a percentage of both that somebody needs to get down to cat 1? How much hard work can make up for a lack of natural ability, and how much natural ability do you need to not have to work very hard?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

There is no substitute for natural talent 

You could work hard all day long every day - if you don't have the ability within you then nothing will change

Again why are you still playing off 26 ? Do you not use your own methods ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no substitute for natural talent 

You could work hard all day long every day - if you don't have the ability within you then nothing will change

Again why are you still playing off 26 ? Do you not use your own methods ?
		
Click to expand...

What you mean is "hard work only beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			How can someone having a single par tell you they can get another 18 or so in the same round?

You are simply pedeling your business on here giving false hope IMO. There are plenty of guys around who will prob never even make a teen handicap let alone cat 1.  you have to have some ability pure and simple and to make the comment along the lines of its not as hard as guys  make out, when you yourself are further away from a 15 handicap than the 15 handicap is from cat 1. says it all.
		
Click to expand...

I am not pedeling anything so please do not insult me if you have a difference of opinion then great I like to hear it and argue my own views but their is no reason to resort to belittling me in that way. I have opinions based on years of research from factual, evidence based, peer reviewed studies. I am not giving false hope, I am simply giving hope and advice to golfers who want to reach cat 1 but do not have this supposed mythical 'natural talent' you are talking about.

What my current golfing situation is says very little in the grand scheme of things, simply one golfer with little or no natural talent who has not as yet found the time and motivation to really give himself a chance to get to that level. As I have said in a previous post I am not going to go into the ins and outs as to why that is the case but I am now in a position to do something about it so I guess I will find out exactly what the difference is (in one single case of course).


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## garyinderry (Mar 26, 2014)

everyone will have their threshold no matter how much they practice.  there will be some people who just wont have it in them to get to and stay at cat 1 !


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## pokerjoke (Mar 26, 2014)

Wheres the banging your head against a wall imoticon.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no substitute for natural talent 

You could work hard all day long every day - if you don't have the ability within you then nothing will change

Again why are you still playing off 26 ? Do you not use your own methods ?
		
Click to expand...

please see my other reply post #114 regarding my own situation if that really matters to you.

You are wrong about natural talent and hard work, 100% wrong


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## TheJezster (Mar 26, 2014)

There's a lot of scared people on here, talking down someone's beliefs just because they dont understand it.  There is no need to fear something just because you dont understand it!  You can either choose to ignore it and not think about it, or perhaps do a little research and learn something new.  Why are people generally afraid to learn something new?  Are they scared they might achieve something, something which perhaps because they dont yet know about it, they cant explain?

Anyway, its utter utter nonsense to completely disregard someone's ideas/beliefs without having experienced it yourself, or even know what you are talking about! This has to cease, it makes you look, well, a little silly really..

I think that some people (some, not all, perhaps not even a majority) would greatly benefit from going through a positive mindset process or coaching.  I dont think this can be disputed!  It's worked for hundreds, if not millions of people in all walks of life.  Now it might not be for you, and heck, I would wager my house that some who are so against the very idea would actually be converted if they opened their mind and went through the process.

I've not, and I dont know anything about G Mulligans work or research, but from what little i have read on here he seems to pretty clued up and certainly believes in what he's discussing.  If I knew nothing else about him, I'd take time to read a little more before dismissing his ideas as drivel.

I disagree slightly though, I dont think that just "anyone" can achieve cat1 status, I do believe there has to be some element of natural ability etc, but thats not to say a 15 year 28 handicapper couldnt come down a few shots if they embraced his methods fully.

Might even have a little look at this blog to see what its all about... Quite interesting I'll bet


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			please see my other reply post #114 regarding my own situation if that really matters to you.

You are wrong about natural talent and hard work, 100% wrong
		
Click to expand...

Show me a golfer who has got to cat 1 without any natural ability ?


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Show me a golfer who has got to cat 1 without any natural ability ?
		
Click to expand...

I can't show you something that is unmeasurable


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I can't show you something that is unmeasurable
		
Click to expand...

So you can't say my statement is 100% wrong 

Sorry but at any sport to get to a high level then the person needs to have a high natural level of ability 

You can't compensate for that through any psychology or hard work.

Hard work will only get you so far


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

Ian Poulter is the first to admit he isn't the most naturally gifted golfer. Hard work seems to have paid off for him.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

I wonder how many of those arguing about positive thinking etc have actually entered the GM competition at the Grove


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## freddielong (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you can't say my statement is 100% wrong 

Sorry but at any sport to get to a high level then the person needs to have a high natural level of ability 

You can't compensate for that through any psychology or hard work.

Hard work will only get you so far
		
Click to expand...

Have you read Bounce


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Ian Poulter is the first to admit he isn't the most naturally gifted golfer. Hard work seems to have paid off for him.
		
Click to expand...



Ian Poulter is naturally a very good ball striker and is naturally talented around the greens.

Witnessed it many times over the years. 

He had to work hard to turn that talent from a cat 1 golfer to a touring pro.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I wonder how many of those arguing about positive thinking etc have actually entered the GM competition at the Grove
		
Click to expand...



Already sat in someone's lecture about positive mind thinking on a golf course etc 

Karl someone - thought it was a load of nonsense


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Already sat in someone's lecture about positive mind thinking on a golf course etc 

Karl someone - thought it was a load of nonsense
		
Click to expand...

Karl Morris? Why bother if you aren't prepared to have an open mind about it? Plenty I know think he has a lot of good stuff to offer and at least ten players I golf with regularly have been to one of his seminars and thought it was really beneficial. Each to their own and a bit like Aimpoint just because it has nothing to offer you doesn't make it wrong or useless


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## User20205 (Mar 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I wonder how many of those arguing about positive thinking etc have actually entered the GM competition at the Grove
		
Click to expand...

That's not relevant, it's possible to know and understand that psychology may polish performance, enhance maybe. There is no way that better mental prep soley gets you from 15 to 5, it help some, but the cornerstone is ability.

To say anyone can become cat 1 is nonsense and disrespectful to those at that level and those who play for years and never reach that level. 

FYI, I've not applied for the psych comp....because the idea of a handicap golfer needing a psychologist is laughable. Play more, think less!!:thup:  you can have that for free


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

therod said:



			FYI, I've not applied for the psych comp....because the idea of a handicap golfer needing a psychologist is laughable. Play more, think less!!:thup:  you can have that for free

Click to expand...

I would suggest GM disagree or why offer the opportunity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Karl Morris? Why bother if you aren't prepared to have an open mind about it? Plenty I know think he has a lot of good stuff to offer and at least ten players I golf with regularly have been to one of his seminars and thought it was really beneficial. Each to their own and a bit like Aimpoint just because it has nothing to offer you doesn't make it wrong or useless
		
Click to expand...

How beneficial was it ? Are they now Cat 1 golfers ? Do they strike the ball better ? Do they shape shots better ? Do they putt better ? Have their scores dropped after spending Â£30 plus listening to a mind coach ?


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## User20205 (Mar 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I would suggest GM disagree or why offer the opportunity.
		
Click to expand...



It fill a page in a mag, sell some advertising space, and maybe offer a conversation point that's different from cure your slice or add 30 yards. 

I've got another gem you can have, the sooner handicap golfers realise they play for enjoyment the better they will play. (That one is chargeable)


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

therod said:



			It fill a page in a mag, sell some advertising space, and maybe offer a conversation point that's different from cure your slice or add 30 yards. 

I've got another gem you can have,* the sooner handicap golfers realise they play for enjoyment the better they will play*. (That one is chargeable)
		
Click to expand...


You could earn yourself Â£30 a time for quality knowledge like that ? Better than any mind coach out there :thup:


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You could earn yourself Â£30 a time for quality knowledge like that ? Better than any mind coach out there :thup:
		
Click to expand...

fairly pathetic really and the reason I usually opt out of discussions when they reach the level of oneupmanship and petty name calling


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How beneficial was it ? Are they now Cat 1 golfers ? Do they strike the ball better ? Do they shape shots better ? Do they putt better ? Have their scores dropped after spending Â£30 plus listening to a mind coach ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they didn't have the high natural ability to get to cat 1. This doesn't mean it hasn't helped their game. If you go into it with a negative attitude wanting to prove it wrong then you're not going to get much from it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			fairly pathetic really and the reason I usually opt out of discussions when they reach the level of oneupmanship and petty name calling
		
Click to expand...


Or it's an opinion that people are fully entitled too. 

Is "mind coach" really "name calling"

I think therods point is smack bang on the nose when it comes to people playing a sport as hobby.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you can't say my statement is 100% wrong 

Sorry but at any sport to get to a high level then the person needs to have a high natural level of ability 

You can't compensate for that through any psychology or hard work.

Hard work will only get you so far
		
Click to expand...

I disagree totally on your assumption that people need a high level of natural ability to reach the top
in any sport.

For example Mo Farah.
When he was born did he have a natural talent for running?
I for one say he did not.
Okay as he got older he probably showed signs he was a fit young boy,obviously
never going to be a big build,however that certainly doesn't automatically put him
into the top athlete category.
Did he at the age of 6/7/8 show signs of being a top runner,who knows,however
one things for sure hes had to train dam hard to get where he is today.
I truly believe you can grab virtually any kid at a young age and make them a very
good golfer,show them how,and if they have the will to succeed they will imo.
What level they get to,who knows.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			I disagree totally on your assumption that people need a high level of natural ability to reach the top
in any sport.

For example Mo Farah.
When he was born did he have a natural talent for running?
I for one say he did not.
Okay as he got older he probably showed signs he was a fit young boy,obviously
never going to be a big build,however that certainly doesn't automatically put him
into the top athlete category.
Did he at the age of 6/7/8 show signs of being a top runner,who knows,however
one things for sure hes had to train dam hard to get where he is today.
I truly believe you can grab virtually any kid at a young age and make them a very
good golfer,show them how,and if they have the will to succeed they will imo.
What level they get to,who knows.
		
Click to expand...


Well I would suggest most people would have a natural ability to run - it's one of human beings main characteristics - the ability to run

How many people do we see at a high level of sport that have no natural ability to their chosen sport ? 

I gave up hockey to play golf and got to cat 1 in 5 years - I know have some natural ability and I know people who have been playing for 30 plus years and haven't got near single figures. 

Why did it do it in 5 years ? Because I believe I have a natural ability to hit a golf ball.


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## 3565 (Mar 26, 2014)

TheJezster said:



			There's a lot of scared people on here, talking down someone's beliefs just because they dont understand it.  There is no need to fear something just because you dont understand it!  You can either choose to ignore it and not think about it, or perhaps do a little research and learn something new.  Why are people generally afraid to learn something new?  Are they scared they might achieve something, something which perhaps because they dont yet know about it, they cant explain?

Anyway, its utter utter nonsense to completely disregard someone's ideas/beliefs without having experienced it yourself, or even know what you are talking about! This has to cease, it makes you look, well, a little silly really..

I think that some people (some, not all, perhaps not even a majority) would greatly benefit from going through a positive mindset process or coaching.  I dont think this can be disputed!  It's worked for hundreds, if not millions of people in all walks of life.  Now it might not be for you, and heck, I would wager my house that some who are so against the very idea would actually be converted if they opened their mind and went through the process.

I've not, and I dont know anything about G Mulligans work or research, but from what little i have read on here he seems to pretty clued up and certainly believes in what he's discussing.  If I knew nothing else about him, I'd take time to read a little more before dismissing his ideas as drivel.

I disagree slightly though, I dont think that just "anyone" can achieve cat1 status, I do believe there has to be some element of natural ability etc, but thats not to say a 15 year 28 handicapper couldnt come down a few shots if they embraced his methods fully.

Might even have a little look at this blog to see what its all about... Quite interesting I'll bet
		
Click to expand...

POST OF THE WEEK RIGHT THERE :thup:

Your first line has hit the nail on the head for some players on this forum. And the fact that no one or should I dare to say the usual 'sceptics' (yep that word again) have replied to your post speaks VOLUMES. I find it hard to believe when someone/thing that can POSSIBLY, change your game and give you a better chance of playing decent good golf, why some jump on the bandwagon and call it B S without giving it a fair try is beyond me? Maybe some on here are happy with where they stand and they have reached their full potential as a golfer, I will not stop until I achieve the holy grail of scratch, but knowing me, I won't be satisfied at that and it's on to the next step a plus hc golfer.


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 26, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			I disagree totally on your assumption that people need a high level of natural ability to reach the top
in any sport.

For example Mo Farah.
When he was born did he have a natural talent for running?
I for one say he did not.
Okay as he got older he probably showed signs he was a fit young boy,obviously
never going to be a big build,however that certainly doesn't automatically put him
into the top athlete category.
Did he at the age of 6/7/8 show signs of being a top runner,who knows,however
one things for sure hes had to train dam hard to get where he is today.
I truly believe you can grab virtually any kid at a young age and make them a very
good golfer,show them how,and if they have the will to succeed they will imo.
What level they get to,who knows.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any question at all that mo farah had a huge natural physiological advantage which allowed him success in endurance running. That alone didn't make him champion but without large lung capacity, high lactic threshold and the correct fast twitch muscle fibres he would have no chance.

Yes they also work hard but endurance athletes of that caliber are born not made.


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## User20205 (Mar 26, 2014)

3565 said:



			POST OF THE WEEK RIGHT THERE :thup:

Your first line has hit the nail on the head for some players on this forum. And the fact that no one or should I dare to say the usual 'sceptics' (yep that word again) have replied to your post speaks VOLUMES. I find it hard to believe when someone/thing that can POSSIBLY, change your game and give you a better chance of playing decent good golf, why some jump on the bandwagon and call it B S without giving it a fair try is beyond me? Maybe some on here are happy with where they stand and they have reached their full potential as a golfer, I will not stop until I achieve the holy grail of scratch, but knowing me, I won't be satisfied at that and it's on to the next step a plus hc golfer.
		
Click to expand...

Getting from 1.something to scratch I imagine is tough, you've nailed the technique, I suppose it's all about examining all avenues.

Getting down from 15-5 is different, you haven't nailed down technique so psychology is unnecessary.

In the context of the OP psychology is irrelevant, the difference between 15 & 5 is a repeatable swing, the difference between 1.something and scratch maybe belief.

It's all well and good being evangelical but it needs to have context and relevance


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## pokerjoke (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I would suggest most people would have a natural ability to run - it's one of human beings main characteristics - the ability to run

How many people do we see at a high level of sport that have no natural ability to their chosen sport ? 

I gave up hockey to play golf and got to cat 1 in 5 years - I know have some natural ability and I know people who have been playing for 30 plus years and haven't got near single figures. 

Why did it do it in 5 years ? Because I believe I have a natural ability to hit a golf ball.
		
Click to expand...



You said to get to a high level of sport you have to have a high level of natural ability.
We all have the ability to run but not all at a high level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			You said to get to a high level of sport you have to have a high level of natural ability.
We all have the ability to run but not all at a high level.
		
Click to expand...

And Mo Farah has a high level of natural ability which flourished when training at altitude


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 26, 2014)

Low handicap golfers would also share an exceptional natural hand eye coordination to apply the centre of the clubface to the ball at high speed on a consistent basis. If you have poor ability to do this you can lower your handicap through practice but it will take longer.

Pros like Sergio and els were scratch golfers at age 12 only playing for a handful of years. Natural ability not an important factor?


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## garyinderry (Mar 26, 2014)

I can learn how to do the most difficult of maths problems as they are simply a set of rules.  at the same time, I will always lack a bit of natural ability to do complicated calculations in my head. 

no amount of practice will make up for this! 

these same thresholds appear in sport. not everyone has it, or will ever have it. 


I also agree that it takes a repeatable swing to get down to a certain handicap in golf.  I think sports psychology is useful when the technique is sound but the mind is the problem. all professional golfers can play all the shots.  its the strong minded that edge out the wins under pressure.


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## Allanxyz (Mar 26, 2014)

BoadieBroadus said:



			Low handicap golfers would also share an exceptional natural hand eye coordination to apply the centre of the clubface to the ball at high speed on a consistent basis. If you have poor ability to do this you can lower your handicap through practice but it will take longer.

*Pros like Sergio and els were scratch golfers at age 12 only playing for a handful of years. Natural ability not an important factor?*

Click to expand...

How do you know for sure that Sergio has natural ability? His dad was a professional golfer and he started playing golf at 3 years of age. Maybe he just had the right teacher, got enough practice in and was highly motivated.. I don't think it's a given that natural ability is the reason he is where he is...


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 26, 2014)

therod said:



			Getting from 1.something to scratch I imagine is tough, you've nailed the technique, I suppose it's all about examining all avenues.

Getting down from 15-5 is different, you haven't nailed down technique so psychology is unnecessary.

In the context of the OP psychology is irrelevant, the difference between 15 & 5 is a repeatable swing, the difference between 1.something and scratch maybe belief.

It's all well and good being evangelical but it needs to have context and relevance
		
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I disagree, psychology plays a part in getting lower from any handicap. Some may not realise it because they may be naturally of a mindset that means they don't inhibit themselves so they assume there is no psychology involved, but there is, there always is. I have had my battles with my mind over the years, I have always managed to overcome it without professional help by thinking about it and working it out for myself because I believe a lot of it is common sense, but it is all psychology. Ability and technique are obviously key to improving but once you have that, you need the mindset to achieve your potential, some people struggle with that, some don't but in all cases, psychology is far from irrelevant.


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## 3565 (Mar 26, 2014)

therod said:



			Getting from 1.something to scratch I imagine is tough, you've nailed the technique, I suppose it's all about examining all avenues.

Getting down from 15-5 is different, you haven't nailed down technique so psychology is unnecessary.

In the context of the OP psychology is irrelevant, the difference between 15 & 5 is a repeatable swing, the difference between 1.something and scratch maybe belief.

It's all well and good being evangelical but it needs to have context and relevance
		
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 I'm not disputing your point in any way and I posted earlier that 15 hc it's 95% physical and 5% mental and for 'some' Cat1 players that would be reversed. What I'm saying is that there are 'tools' to help everyone if they choose to do so, and if, even the slightest bit of that tool helps you along the way then it has to be worth it? But for players to just disregard it as hocus pocus, or cos he plays off a 32 hc and it's not going to benefit him, or nah, my way is best is being narrow minded a little. But I think some are giving this psychologist a hard time, and for what? He's giving his time willingly to a case study and posting on here which we can all read and possibly learn from, but you have to be open minded to do that. It may not suit everyone but at least try, cos you never know and maybe surprised with the results?


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 26, 2014)

True, this is just speculation and difficult to prove either way. Just as there is no way to disprove that Sergio had natural ability which he had inherited from his golf pro father. 

I've tried to teach my wife to play. I'm pretty sure that there are people with no natural ability.


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## Region3 (Mar 26, 2014)

I believe the right thinking is part of an all round good golf game, but I believe MR Mulligan is overstating it's importance.

I don't believe a 15 can go to 5 on mental improvements alone, but I do think they can get to 5 on technical improvements alone. A very good golfer can reach 5 with a bad attitude. A golfer with a great attitude won't get to 5 with shocking technique.

I don't believe anyone who can par a hole is automatically capable of getting to scratch, in the same way that I don't believe anyone who can make a birdie is capable of making a living on the PGA Tour.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 27, 2014)

Region3 said:



			I believe the right thinking is part of an all round good golf game, but I believe MR Mulligan is overstating it's importance.

I don't believe a 15 can go to 5 on mental improvements alone, but I do think they can get to 5 on technical improvements alone. A very good golfer can reach 5 with a bad attitude. A golfer with a great attitude won't get to 5 with shocking technique.

I don't believe anyone who can par a hole is automatically capable of getting to scratch, in the same way that I don't believe anyone who can make a birdie is capable of making a living on the PGA Tour.
		
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again I feel my posts are being taken out of context. I did not say it only took an improved mental game alone or that sport psychology alone could get you from 15-5. I also did not say that it would be automatic for a player who can make par on one hole can play off scratch (I actually said cat 1 I think) The point I was making though is that they have the potential. They have the physical capabilitiy to do it, they have no major physical disability stopping them from doing it. I have said several times that it takes hard work, dedication, etc. etc. 

One thing I wanted to get across and think I failed miserably is that there may be plenty of people in the 15 handicap range who are fully capable of getting much lower if they just believed it a bit more. If they practiced harder and certainly more effectively. If they trusted their swing. Stopped giving themselves excuses to fail and actually practiced certain sport psychology techniques.

It is not for everyone, some do not have the time or desire to do it, they just want to play golf and enjoy it and all power to them. I really honestly believe though that given the correct techniques and the time to practice them there are very few golfers that lack the physical characteristics of a cat 1 golfer.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 27, 2014)

I would say its a smidgeon of natural ability, a decent amount of effort and a good mental approach. Add them together and jobs a good un :thup:

I lack all 3 so am snookered


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			again I feel my posts are being taken out of context. I did not say it only took an improved mental game alone or that sport psychology alone could get you from 15-5. I also did not say that it would be automatic for a player who can make par on one hole can play off scratch (I actually said cat 1 I think) The point I was making though is that they have the potential. They have the physical capabilitiy to do it, they have no major physical disability stopping them from doing it. I have said several times that it takes hard work, dedication, etc. etc. 

One thing I wanted to get across and think I failed miserably is that there may be plenty of people in the 15 handicap range who are fully capable of getting much lower if they just believed it a bit more. If they practiced harder and certainly more effectively. If they trusted their swing. Stopped giving themselves excuses to fail and actually practiced certain sport psychology techniques.

It is not for everyone, some do not have the time or desire to do it, they just want to play golf and enjoy it and all power to them. I really honestly believe though that given the correct techniques and the time to practice them there are very few golfers that lack the physical characteristics of a cat 1 golfer.
		
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I have not checked out your website but will do when I get a chance, can I just ask if the guy your are coaching has a valid handicap that we can monitor via HDID or Master Scoreboard I think that way then more people would find it a bit easier to believe if your methods work rather than just take your word for it.


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I disagree, psychology plays a part in getting lower from any handicap. Some may not realise it because they may be naturally of a mindset that means they don't inhibit themselves so they assume there is no psychology involved, but there is, there always is. I have had my battles with my mind over the years, I have always managed to overcome it without professional help by thinking about it and working it out for myself because I believe a lot of it is common sense, but it is all psychology. Ability and technique are obviously key to improving but once you have that, you need the mindset to achieve your potential, some people struggle with that, some don't but in all cases, psychology is far from irrelevant.
		
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Self analysis isn't the same as paying someone Â£30 per hour for them to tell you 'stay in the moment'


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			I have not checked out your website but will do when I get a chance, can I just ask if the guy your are coaching has a valid handicap that we can monitor via HDID or Master Scoreboard I think that way then more people would find it a bit easier to believe if your methods work rather than just take your word for it.
		
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Of course he's not going to tell you that. Client confidentiality.


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Of course he's not going to tell you that. Client confidentiality.
		
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Like I have said I have not checked out the website yet so who knows maybe all the information is already there, can anybody confirm.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2014)

Here is a wee experiment for golfers of 15 handicap and above.

Next bounce game take one club more than you would choose for each shot between 220yards and 50 yards [this has to be done honestly] and see what happens to your score.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			It fill a page in a mag, sell some advertising space, and maybe offer a conversation point that's different from cure your slice or add 30 yards.
		
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I imagine you feel exactly the same about all the GM offers especially the custom fit ones. Will the new clubs magically cure the players faults? Naturally you'd never dream of selling your soul and putting your name in for these opportunities either just to seel some advertising space and fill some pages


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## patricks148 (Mar 27, 2014)

Iâ€™m not sure why the guy is getting uppity and accusing people of calling him names and insulting him??

How come,his avatar is his company logo, has his company web address on his signature and is promoting work, the last guy to come on here and promote his business was the whale club guy and we all know what happened there. ?????


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Have read this whole thing through with interest and offer a couple of comments. And just because I'm playing off 20, try not to dismiss them too readily. So, what actually is this "natural ability" that is being referred to?  Is it the ability to hit a 300yd draw off the tee? Cos I can do that. Is it the ability to stiff a 9 iron 140 yds to the heart of the green? Cos I can do that too. I know I can because I have - just not very often. So what is the difference between me and a 5 hc? Obvious - they do it a darn sight more frequently than me. So, it's a matter of frequency not ability, surely? I'm "able" because I have done it.  So surely the further step is to consider why I'm not off 5 - it's not because I can't hit the shots. It's because I don't hit them. And why don't I hit the good shots more often? If only we knew that....


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 27, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Iâ€™m not sure why the guy is getting uppity and accusing people of calling him names and insulting him??

How come,his avatar is his company logo, has his company web address on his signature and is promoting work, the last guy to come on here and promote his business was the whale club guy and we all know what happened there. ?????
		
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so does bobmac, he also said you just have to stop playing adventurous golf and start playing boring golf. That seems pretty easy to me so why not go and attack him.

Obviously you have a problem with me and I really do not like the petty insults and oneupmanship so probably best if we just ignore each other.

PS: apologies Bob for dragging you into this, I hope you don't mind


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## Birchy (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Have read this whole thing through with interest and offer a couple of comments. And just because I'm playing off 20, try not to dismiss them too readily. So, what actually is this "natural ability" that is being referred to?  Is it the ability to hit a 300yd draw off the tee? Cos I can do that. Is it the ability to stiff a 9 iron 140 yds to the heart of the green? Cos I can do that too. I know I can because I have - just not very often. So what is the difference between me and a 5 hc? Obvious - they do it a darn sight more frequently than me. So, it's a matter of frequency not ability, surely? I'm "able" because I have done it.  So surely the further step is to consider why I'm not off 5 - it's not because I can't hit the shots. It's because I don't hit them. And why don't I hit the good shots more often? If only we knew that....
		
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Natural ability will help you do great things more often more easily imo. Im not saying its not possible because it is but its a dam sight easier.

Some people can be shown a technique or see a technique a few times and they will pick it up pretty quick and run with. Some people will struggle with it and have to work hard to get it to work.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, my technique isn't bad, but jeez does my head get in my way. Am I doing anything about it? No, because I'm lazy. Would it get me to 5? Yes, I have no doubt at all. None.


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## patricks148 (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			so does bobmac, he also said you just have to stop playing adventurous golf and start playing boring golf. That seems pretty easy to me so why not go and attack him.

Obviously you have a problem with me and I really do not like the petty insults and oneupmanship so probably best if we just ignore each other.

PS: apologies Bob for dragging you into this, I hope you don't mind
		
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Bob mac has done it.. pure and simple so he knows what it took. He also dishes out or has in the past dished out lots of free advice and tips.


I don't have a problem with you but you appear to have the problem, you have accused people of calling you names and insulting you!!! i can't see anywhere this has been done?

My only issue is that you stated it wasn't that hard to get to cat1 and that you could get anyone there, regardless of ability. yet you don't appear to have been able to do this for your own game?


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Have read this whole thing through with interest and offer a couple of comments. And just because I'm playing off 20, try not to dismiss them too readily. So, what actually is this "natural ability" that is being referred to?  Is it the ability to hit a 300yd draw off the tee? Cos I can do that. Is it the ability to stiff a 9 iron 140 yds to the heart of the green? Cos I can do that too. I know I can because I have - just not very often. So what is the difference between me and a 5 hc? Obvious - they do it a darn sight more frequently than me. So, it's a matter of frequency not ability, surely? I'm "able" because I have done it.  So surely the further step is to consider why I'm not off 5 - it's not because I can't hit the shots. It's because I don't hit them. And why don't I hit the good shots more often? If only we knew that....
		
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the natural ability spoken of is the hand eye coordination levels to be able to apply the centre of the clubface to the ball, at high speed, consistently. the difference between a good shot and poor one is only a few cm on the clubface.

the important word is "consistently" - by your admission your shots hit various parts of the clubface from shot to shot. consistency can be improved with practice and coaching. but some people, as in all sports, just find it far easier to it the sweetspot time after time purely through levels of coordination.

and that, is natural ability.


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## Spear-Chucker (Mar 27, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Well, my technique isn't bad, but jeez does my head get in my way. Am I doing anything about it? No, because I'm lazy. Would it get me to 5? Yes, I have no doubt at all. None.
		
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I can relate to this. My technique is ok considering i've had no lessons in 25yrs but you wouldn't coach it and it has serious limitations. I was a decent 9ish hcp around 15 yrs ago when i decided to get off my backside (luckily i had the time and an understanding young wife) and build a mental game from the ground up - inspired by a certain young American golfer coming to the fore... 

Got the old brainbox helping me and the rest is a nice little history. Not perfect, but a world away still. Took the most effort to stump up the courage to ask a pro/psychologist mate to help.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Natural ability will help you do great things more often more easily imo. Im not saying its not possible because it is but its a dam sight easier.

Some people can be shown a technique or see a technique a few times and they will pick it up pretty quick and run with. Some people will struggle with it and have to work hard to get it to work.
		
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So that was my point really. What *is* this natural ability? Is it an ability to learn - or an ability to "do". And of course, I notice that "hard work" comes back onto the scene - which is not about "ability"


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 27, 2014)

I think the mental game is definitely part of it, probably hard to get down to cat 1 with a "bad" mental approach and definitely something I devote a bit of thought to in my quest to get there from 7.

But yeah, coolest head in the world isn't going to get to cat 1 with a swing like an octopus falling out a tree.

Of course, I don't think anyone is actually claiming otherwise....


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			so does bobmac, he also said you just have to stop playing adventurous golf and start playing boring golf. That seems pretty easy to me so why not go and attack him.

Obviously you have a problem with me and I really do not like the petty insults and oneupmanship so probably best if we just ignore each other.

PS: apologies Bob for dragging you into this, I hope you don't mind
		
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Hi Greg

I have had a look at your website and TBH it all sounds rather good and from what I see all you do is try and make someone feel good about their game but personally I don't believe that this is enough to back up the claims you are making

Who is Norman and as per one of my last posts can you produce evidence through Normans progress rather than just what we read on the site then maybe people will accept your approach but at the moment it all looks like smoke & mirrors.


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## garyinderry (Mar 27, 2014)

i can hit the ball 300 yards. I can stitch a 9 iron 140 yards. what is natural ability. 


golf can seem like a simple sport. move the ball from point a to point b. indeed it is a simple sport. at the same time we all know how difficult it can be and how many facets to the game there is. 

when it comes to natural ability. people do not just get up out of bed and instantly hit 300 yard drives or have a short game to die for. they learn the skill and it becomes simple for them as they have the proper reflexes and brain to use them to achieve whatever their goal is.

in football, if you look at players like Bergkamp and Ronaldinho. These guys have phenomenal first touches and close control. They learned to do this and have mastered the skill. Now take Theo Walcott and Aaron Lennon. These two are both fit young men who train daily with some of the top coaches in the world. Neither of these players have a great first touch, nor is their control anywhere near the other two I mentioned. Is it because they don't try, I doubt it. No one would purposely have a touch like Theo's.  

As mentioned, golf seems like a simple game, but again the natural ability bit rears its head. its not so obvious to people as it all seems so simple. Ive hit the ball 300 yards, ive chipped in so I can do it again.  In the professional ranks, natural ability can be seen clearly in and around the greens. This is where the money is won. Look at Lee Westwood. If he had an ounce of natural ability with a putter we would be calling him Major winner Westwood. If you think big Lee hasn't put the work in on the greens and tried everything to become a good putter then you are sadly mistaken. 

Again Sergio is another who is lauded for his ball striking but can not grasp the ability to putt well. 

Some people have it, some people can get closer their goal, some people show flashes but cant hold onto it, but alas, just like wee theo trying to control a ball, some people will never have it. 




I am not saying people cant improve. of course we can. its just that at some point people will struggle. this point arrives sooner for some. I believe this point would be before cat 1 for some.  That's just my opinion. Im not having a go Mr Mulligan. ive really enjoyed this thread.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Of course he's not going to tell you that. Client confidentiality.
		
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that is entirely correct.


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 27, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			I am not saying people cant improve. of course we can. its just that at some point people will struggle. this point arrives sooner for some. I believe this point would be before cat 1 for some.  That's just my opinion. Im not having a go Mr Mulligan. ive really enjoyed this thread.
		
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no worries I have no problem whatsoever with differences of opinion. You also make a very good point about Theo and I agree he will never have the touch of ronaldo or messi but that does not mean he never could have if trained early in something like futsal. Brazil are often lauded over for their amazing close control and now spain are too but they trained at it a lot growing up. Theo grew up in England where we lump it forward and he was probably told to beat the other defenders for pace and either cut it back for the striker or have a shot at goal (the two things he is best at). 

Like you I also believe there has to be some sort of cap to talent and even more so once you get to a certain age but I don't think 5 handicap golf is one of them for the vast majority of people.


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			So that was my point really. What *is* this natural ability? Is it an ability to learn - or an ability to "do". And of course, I notice that "hard work" comes back onto the scene - which is not about "ability"
		
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its primarily an ability to "do" - no one picks up a club for the first time and hits 100 perfect shots, but someone with no natural ability will miss the ball 80% of the time while someone with much better natural coordination will be hitting some pretty reasonable shots come the end of the 100 balls.

i'd wouldnt  be surprised that if you had a time machine and were able to transport golf pros and 15 handicappers back to their very first 100 balls, you'd be able to tell the groups apart even then.

not that it's impossible for someone to improve, but to assume that everyone has the same level of innate sporting coordination, is something that I cannot believe for a second.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

Apparently when Sergio was a kid, he was a superb putter. Now he isn't. It can only be in his head.


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			that is entirely correct.
		
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I have had a look at your site and in the testimonial area well there are no testimonials other than your claims so as a golfer and a parent I would not even consider spending money with you and given the claims you make about teaching golf when you are in no way qualified to do so other than being a Psychologist how can you advise anyone on the golf swing. It all seems rather odd to me and given you are not willing to give any information about Norman no mates I would question anyone who is willing to part with cash to you. There are Pro's out there who charge less than you are charging and guess what they are qualified to teach the game of golf and you are not.


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## garyinderry (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			no worries I have no problem whatsoever with differences of opinion. You also make a very good point about Theo and I agree he will never have the touch of ronaldo or messi but that does not mean he never could have if trained early in something like futsal. Brazil are often lauded over for their amazing close control and now spain are too but they trained at it a lot growing up. Theo grew up in England where we lump it forward and he was probably told to beat the other defenders for pace and either cut it back for the striker or have a shot at goal (the two things he is best at). 

Like you I also believe there has to be some sort of cap to talent and even more so once you get to a certain age but I don't think 5 handicap golf is one of them for the vast majority of people.
		
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theo trains everyday (hes not injured) on close control. even if he was trained on it from day dot, the boy sadly doesn't have it in him. you can be sure that arsenal are squeezing every bit of touch out of him they can. he sadly just doesn't have it. there are many wonderful parts to his game but touch isn't of them. 

It is your last couple of lines that is bugging people slightly. If you have never been to a 5handicap then it, even to yourself is a somewhat unknown quantity. To make a sweeping statement that the vast majority of people can get to 5 is a little silly and also a little disrespectful to those who have worked hard at their game to even make it to teens or single figures. As I have made it to singles I believe that a lot, not all could get to this number with the right practice and course management. I am also slightly more acutely aware of how difficult it is to make the jump from singles down to cat 1 handicap. 

This opinion is coming from experience of the game iv played and also watching those around me. What evidence can you provide me to back up your claim that all can play to cat 1?  I just don't think this is possible.


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## Birchy (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			So that was my point really. What *is* this natural ability? Is it an ability to learn - or an ability to "do". And of course, I notice that "hard work" comes back onto the scene - which is not about "ability"
		
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Like I have just said. If you have got natural ability you will learn quicker. You will get better quicker. You will make some things look very easy that some people might not even be able to do if they practiced it a lot.

A golfing example in my eyes would be if you have played Competitive golf for 2-3 years or more and still have a handicap of more than 20 I wouldn't class you as having a natural ability for golf.

Just as a comparison think about fitness. Some people are naturally super fit, some people have to work hard to get super fit. Some people will never be super fit no matter what they do. I would probably class myself as the latter :rofl:


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## patricks148 (Mar 27, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			theo trains everyday (hes not injured) on close control. even if he was trained on it from day dot, the boy sadly doesn't have it in him. you can be sure that arsenal are squeezing every bit of touch out of him they can. he sadly just doesn't have it. there are many wonderful parts to his game but touch isn't of them. 

It is your last couple of lines that is bugging people slightly. If you have never been to a 5handicap then it, even to yourself is a somewhat unknown quantity. To make a sweeping statement that the vast majority of people can get to 5 is a little silly and also a little disrespectful to those who have worked hard at their game to even make it to teens or single figures. As I have made it to singles I believe that a lot, not all could get to this number with the right practice and course management. I am also slightly more acutely aware of how difficult it is to make the jump from singles down to cat 1 handicap. 

This opinion is coming from experience of the game iv played and also watching those around me. What evidence can you provide me to back up your claim that all can play to cat 1?  I just don't think this is possible.
		
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:thup: Exactly


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			I have had a look at your site and in the testimonial area well there are no testimonials other than your claims so as a golfer and a parent I would not even consider spending money with you and given the claims you make about teaching golf when you are in no way qualified to do so other than being a Psychologist how can you advise anyone on the golf swing. It all seems rather odd to me and given you are not willing to give any information about Norman no mates I would question anyone who is willing to part with cash to you. There are Pro's out there who charge less than you are charging and guess what they are qualified to teach the game of golf and you are not.
		
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I think its generally time to leave off the mulligan bashing. Nowhere does he say he's a golf coach, nor a swing coach or anything like. He just says he can help with you golf performance. For which you don't even need to be a golfer (my words, not his). Those who think he can help will use his service and pay the fees: those who don't won't.

I think we should leave it there.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How beneficial was it ? Are they now Cat 1 golfers ? Do they strike the ball better ? Do they shape shots better ? Do they putt better ? Have their scores dropped after spending Â£30 plus listening to a mind coach ?
		
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Who's fault is it tho Phil , the coach or the pupil ? i suppose it can be either maybe both even in different cases ..

Maybe they cant hit the ball any better but if they dont let the bad shots wear them down afterwards surely its easier to play than walking around 2 holes later thinking of what you did , even tho you cant change it. 

If you or I  went for a golf lesson with say Sean Foley or Butch Harmon but then didnt apply what you were shown whos fault is that ? sitting listening to the best advice in the world will do you no good unless you apply it afterwards 

Just a thought ?


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Like I have just said. If you have got natural ability you will learn quicker. You will get better quicker. You will make some things look very easy that some people might not even be able to do if they practiced it a lot.

A golfing example in my eyes would be if you have played Competitive golf for 2-3 years or more and still have a handicap of more than 20 I wouldn't class you as having a natural ability for golf.
		
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So, natural ability means I could do it easily ? As opposed to with difficulty. Which sort of means getting to cat 1 has nothing to do with natural ability -its just the ease with which you get there?  But because I've done it once, there is no reason I can't do it again, and again and again. Which is what is needed to play to a high standard.

Ps the main reason (probably) that I'm still off 20 is that I'm a lazy sod and dont make time to practice. Or do any of the things one is supposed to. And no, I don't think I've got natural ability, whatever that is


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## Slab (Mar 27, 2014)

Itâ€™s been a thoroughly interesting (and at times an amusing) thread 

G_Mulligan did get some flak for the bold claim (flak that just stayed the right side of insulting) but who really expected a psychologist to have a different point of view! And one of the interesting things is why some will spend so much time trying to prove it has little or no merit (other than the perceived offence of belittling their cat 1 achievement) Yet is it not just course management under another guise? Surely your head has to be right in order to choose the right shot to play!

Often threads are posted on this forum about rounds falling to pieces because the nasty man in the group behind said something to me I didnâ€™t like or others werenâ€™t playing fast enough so my game suffered or that rule seems unfair to me and it affected me for a few shots, jeez even if it starts raining it seems to affect some golfers detrimentally!   These are all psychology (mindset) issues

I think that despite it being â€˜justâ€™ a shot every other hole the difference between 15 & 5 is wider than it appears on paper and the leap requires an ability (not necessarily of the natural variety) a consistent technique and the correct shot selection (which brings us back to a players mind-set/outlook)
The dedication to practice/play your handicap down falls into the above areas too

Few have a problem going to a golf teaching pro to gain a handful of shots nor does it appear there is a problem buying new/extra/replacement kit in the belief itâ€™ll return a small handful of shots either so why the apparent  aversion to someone helping out with your mindset/course management? 

So if the handicap needs to come down by 10 itâ€™s reasonable that for the majority this will not be just one aspect that requires attention. For example those 10 are accumulated could come through -4 from a teaching pro, -3 from practice, -2 from shot selection (course management) and -1 from new shineys. Naturally some will get double the shots needed from a teaching pro and donâ€™t need help with course management or new kit but the opposite is also true, some have enough ability but lack the right mindset and could get 6-8 shots by having the right attitude and shot selection 

As for whether it (psychology) has a place in the amateur game... I think probably just as much as custom fitting does


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## bladeplayer (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			I have not checked out your website but will do when I get a chance, can I just ask if the guy your are coaching has a valid handicap that we can monitor via HDID or Master Scoreboard I think that way then more people would find it a bit easier to believe if your methods work rather than just take your word for it.
		
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Speaking for yourself i take it or do you want to name the more people ?




Mail Man said:



			Hi Greg

I have had a look at your website and TBH it all sounds rather good and from what I see all you do is try and make someone feel good about their game but personally I don't believe that this is enough to back up the claims you are making

Who is Norman and as per one of my last posts can you produce evidence through Normans progress rather than just what we read on the site then maybe people will accept your approach but at the moment it all looks like smoke & mirrors.
		
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You dont believe ? ok tell us what makes you qualified enough or is it just your opinion ..
Why is it so important to you to know Normans progress, if you think you need help with the mental side of the game try it , if you dont , then dont  



Mail Man said:



			I have had a look at your site and in the testimonial area well there are no testimonials other than your claims so as a golfer and a parent I would not even consider spending money with you and given the claims you make about teaching golf when you are in no way qualified to do so other than being a Psychologist how can you advise anyone on the golf swing. It all seems rather odd to me and given you are not willing to give any information about Norman no mates I would question anyone who is willing to part with cash to you. There are Pro's out there who charge less than you are charging and guess what they are qualified to teach the game of golf and you are not.
		
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Did  he ask you for money for anything ? & why the questioning him without knowing him or his ability ? 


Im all for discussion and standing by what you think or believe and its what makes the forum what it is , G_mulligan has said things here that i have taken on board and will try see if they work , he has never asked me for money 

To me you seem to have gotten your teeth into this and seem determined to discredit someone you dont know on her and that doesnt sit well with me at all ,

i appreciate you are new to the forum and if you stick around you will see we all TRY to help each other in many ways , ok some of the advice from forumers may not be right , or may even be right but wont work for you or me , but its given freely and with good intentions , so take it as that and dont try discredit someone 

enjoy the forum


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## Birchy (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			So, natural ability means I could do it easily ? As opposed to with difficulty. Which sort of means getting to cat 1 has nothing to do with natural ability -its just the ease with which you get there?  But because I've done it once, there is no reason I can't do it again, and again and again. Which is what is needed to play to a high standard.

Ps the main reason (probably) that I'm still off 20 is that I'm a lazy sod and dont make time to practice. Or do any of the things one is supposed to. And no, I don't think I've got natural ability, whatever that is
		
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I also said that natural ability enables you to do stuff easily which some might not be able to even do at all. Some people cant learn stuff even if they are shown a lot of times, its just not in them imo.

P.S That golfing example wasn't aimed directly at you it was just a general statement. Didn't mean to cause any offence if it did.


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## BoadieBroadus (Mar 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			So, natural ability means I could do it easily ? As opposed to with difficulty. Which sort of means getting to cat 1 has nothing to do with natural ability -its just the ease with which you get there?  But because I've done it once, there is no reason I can't do it again, and again and again. Which is what is needed to play to a high standard.
		
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no, because natural ability or innate coordination is on a sliding scale, not simply something you have or don't have. one person with exceptional natural ability will be able to get to cat 1 with ease within a 3 or 4 years of first picking up a club, often with minimal instruction. someone with very little natural ability will not be able to get there regardless of effort or lessons. most (i'd wager all but occasionally there may be exceptions) current touring pros would be in the first category and at the very top of that.

your statement also assumes that the golfer with poor natural ability has infinite time and resources which he can dedicate to getting to cat 1, which is simply not remotely realistic.


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## rksquire (Mar 27, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			theo trains everyday (hes not injured) on close control. even if he was trained on it from day dot, the boy sadly doesn't have it in him. you can be sure that arsenal are squeezing every bit of touch out of him they can. he sadly just doesn't have it. there are many wonderful parts to his game but touch isn't of them. 

It is your last couple of lines that is bugging people slightly. If you have never been to a 5handicap then it, even to yourself is a somewhat unknown quantity. To make a sweeping statement that the vast majority of people can get to 5 is a little silly and also a little disrespectful to those who have worked hard at their game to even make it to teens or single figures. As I have made it to singles I believe that a lot, not all could get to this number with the right practice and course management. I am also slightly more acutely aware of how difficult it is to make the jump from singles down to cat 1 handicap. 

This opinion is coming from experience of the game iv played and also watching those around me. What evidence can you provide me to back up your claim that all can play to cat 1?  I just don't think this is possible.
		
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I'm not sure I can fully agree with the Theo point - the comparison of Theo to Messi is like comparing Luke Donald to Tiger Woods in his pomp; comparing one element of Theo's game (ie touch) to one element of Ronaldinho's is like comparing Garcia's putting to Snedekers putting.  In actual fact comparing Theo to a 15 h/cap and Bergkamp  is a 5 h/cap is unfair to both parties, as you're saying the footballers (at the point of comparison) have maxed out their abilities; I'm pretty sure you don't think either a 5 or 15 h/cap have maxed out their abilities.

That's part of the beauty of golf - you can pick it up at any age, and if you're willing, you can improve.  That's whether you are a 28 h/cap or scratch.  Some people improve quickly; some don't.  People have pointed the differences (mental & physical) and that's fine, but the argument of how difficult it is improve seems to have taken over. 

Surely I'm right in saying that all the single figure players are unlikely to think that a 15 h/cap player (any 15 h/cap player!?) has maxed out?  If they do, I might as well pack up my clubs and go home.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I also said that natural ability enables you to do stuff easily which some might not be able to even do at all. Some people cant learn stuff even if they are shown a lot of times, its just not in them imo.

P.S That golfing example wasn't aimed directly at you it was just a general statement. Didn't mean to cause any offence if it did.
		
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No offence taken whatsoever.

Point taken about some things some people just can't do.  I can't run a 4 minute mile. Never have,never will. But my point is that I *can* do stuff. Sometimes. And that "stuff" is the things a cat1 player can do.  If I can do it sometimes, then I ought to be able to it more frequently, or even regularly. And therefore in theory, ought to be able to get there - even without "natural ability". Just going to find it hard -and most likely impossible.


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## garyinderry (Mar 27, 2014)

I was trying to highlight what natural ability is. as I've said theo will have worked dam hard on trying to improve his touch. its just something that isn't natural to him. 

I was making the point that there will be a certain level, no matter how hard people try/train they will not achieve. 

This was in response to the "everyone can make a 5 handicap". 


I never once compared any of the footballers to handicaps. Merely talking about natural ability. 

We all play this game for fun and to improve to the best level we can. I applaud the adidas approach of "impossible is nothing". Up to a point its true. Then reality kicks in. But there is no harm trying to achieve the best YOU can.


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## la_lucha (Mar 27, 2014)

Cracking thread up until about page 10.


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Speaking for yourself i take it or do you want to name the more people ?




You dont believe ? ok tell us what makes you qualified enough or is it just your opinion ..
Why is it so important to you to know Normans progress, if you think you need help with the mental side of the game try it , if you dont , then dont  



Did  he ask you for money for anything ? & why the questioning him without knowing him or his ability ? 


Im all for discussion and standing by what you think or believe and its what makes the forum what it is , G_mulligan has said things here that i have taken on board and will try see if they work , he has never asked me for money 

To me you seem to have gotten your teeth into this and seem determined to discredit someone you dont know on her and that doesnt sit well with me at all ,

i appreciate you are new to the forum and if you stick around you will see we all TRY to help each other in many ways , ok some of the advice from forumers may not be right , or may even be right but wont work for you or me , but its given freely and with good intentions , so take it as that and dont try discredit someone 

enjoy the forum
		
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Yes I am new to the forum so excuse me for not being able to multi quote and does being new mean I am not allowed my view ?

Also I am sure when I accepted the rules it stated that I was not allowed to advertise on the forum, seems Greg is doing exactly that and more than me have questioned (read the whole thread) him so pardon me if I have upset you but I just can't see how someone with no coaching skills relevant to golf can make such bold claims.

Are you saying that anybody looking to improve would be better spending cash on a psychologist rather than a professional, in order for a psychologist to improve your game you need to have the ability to strike the ball this is not something a psychologist can teach you but a professional can teach you and God forbid someone playing off 20+ trying to teach the golf swing and making bold claims about getting you to Cat 1.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 27, 2014)

la_lucha said:



			Cracking thread up until about page 10.
		
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Change your settings & you'l only be on 5 ha :thup:


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## Slab (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			Yes I am new to the forum so excuse me for not being able to multi quote and does being new mean I am not allowed my view ?

Also I am sure when I accepted the rules it stated that I was not allowed to advertise on the forum, seems Greg is doing exactly that and more than me have questioned (read the whole thread) him so pardon me if I have upset you but I just can't see how someone with no coaching skills relevant to golf can make such bold claims.

Are you saying that anybody looking to improve would be better spending cash on a psychologist rather than a professional, in order for a psychologist to improve your game you need to have the ability to strike the ball this is not something a psychologist can teach you but a professional can teach you and* God forbid someone playing off 20+ trying to teach the golf swing *and making bold claims about getting you to Cat 1.
		
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Re my bold: you probably do get this but just in case... the psychologist is not trying to teach anyone how to swing a golf club

edit: reading it back my post seems a little condescending but that's not the intent, just wanted to make sure there was no confusion over what each professional does


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

Slab said:



			Re my bold: you probably do get this but just in case... the psychologist is not trying to teach anyone how to swing a golf club
		
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Yep I do understand that part but what I don't understand is how he can claim to get someone from say 14 or higher down to Cat1 with only mind games and making them feel good as that will never happen no matter what.

I do believe that a Psychologist can help your mind set and possibly help your game if you are indeed a Cat 1 player or teach higher handicap players how to be more tuned in on how to plot your way round the golf course but there is no way this will take big numbers off your handicap.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			(1)Yes I am new to the forum so excuse me for not being able to multi quote and does being new mean I am not allowed my view ?

(2) Also I am sure when I accepted the rules it stated that I was not allowed to advertise on the forum, seems Greg is doing exactly that and more than me have questioned (read the whole thread) him so pardon me if I have upset you but I just can't see how someone with no coaching skills relevant to golf can make such bold claims.

(3) Are you saying that anybody looking to improve would be better spending cash on a psychologist rather than a professional, in order for a psychologist to improve your game you need to have the ability to strike the ball this is not something a psychologist can teach you but a professional can teach you and God forbid someone playing off 20+ trying to teach the golf swing and making bold claims about getting you to Cat 1.
		
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Phew .. Ok ..

(1) Of course you are allowed your view , thats what makes the forum strong , i dont think you will find i said differently .. from reading your posts i got the opinion  you were just totally discrediting or trying to discredit  what he does..  

(2) Im sure if he was breaking any rules he would have been pulled up on it by now, if you feel he is breaking any rules  then feel free to report it .. IMO he does not try sell anything on here , he has told us what he does and will try help wherever he can but there is no selling involved as far as i am aware 

(3)  Im not saying anything of the sort , all people are different , some need help with their swing , some need help with their mind game , others could very well be beyond help at all .. i know i tried lessons last year for the first time and it didnt work for me , learning to accept bad shots and bad days has helped , so for me it was my mind was the biggest enemy & hopefully will reap the rewards this year , maybe it wont & il never get any better 


I dont think he ever claimed to be able to teach someone how to hit the ball ,
just a thought,  maybe the person hitting the ball and struggling needs to learn to manage the fairway between his ears before he can manage another fairway .. 

P.s multi quote is the  "+   beside the "reply with quote" in the bottom right just click this on all the posts you want to multi quote :thup:... bad thing is you have to un tick then again or they keep popping up


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## garyinderry (Mar 27, 2014)

people are trying to comprehend the fact that mr mulligan is a dedicated golf psychologist whilst not himself being able to break 90.  He would get half as much flack if he said he was simply a sports psychologist to aid and assist with pressure and mind problems. 

he wont fix your swing, he wont make you shoot lower scores, but he has techniques that can implemented to assist someone on a golf course when they feel the game slipping from them mentally or when they feel the pressure. 

It would make a little more sense for a dedicated golf psychologist to be able to play the game to a decent standard at least. I am sure that it one of his future aims and will only be a matter of time. 

he has spotted a gap in the market, good luck with it. if he can make a good go of it you may see him milling around the practice green rubbing shoulders with bob rotella et al. Impossible is nothing! :thup:


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## Mail Man (Mar 27, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Phew .. Ok ..

(1) Of course you are allowed your view , thats what makes the forum strong , i dont think you will find i said differently .. from reading your posts i got the opinion  you were just totally discrediting or trying to discredit  what he does..  

(2) Im sure if he was breaking any rules he would have been pulled up on it by now, if you feel he is breaking any rules  then feel free to report it .. IMO he does not try sell anything on here , he has told us what he does and will try help wherever he can but there is no selling involved as far as i am aware 

(3)  Im not saying anything of the sort , all people are different , some need help with their swing , some need help with their mind game , others could very well be beyond help at all .. i know i tried lessons last year for the first time and it didnt work for me , learning to accept bad shots and bad days has helped , so for me it was my mind was the biggest enemy & hopefully will reap the rewards this year , maybe it wont & il never get any better 


I dont think he ever claimed to be able to teach someone how to hit the ball ,
just a thought,  maybe the person hitting the ball and struggling needs to learn to manage the fairway between his ears before he can manage another fairway .. 

P.s multi quote is the  "+   beside the "reply with quote" in the bottom right just click this on all the posts you want to multi quote :thup:... bad thing is you have to un tick then again or they keep popping up 

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## Allanxyz (Mar 27, 2014)

Mail Man said:



			Yep I do understand that part but what I don't understand is how he can claim to get someone from say 14 or higher down to Cat1 with *only *mind games and making them feel good as that will never happen no matter what.
		
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G_Mulligan said:



			again I feel my posts are being taken out of context.*I did not* say it *only* took an improved mental game alone or that sport psychology alone could get you from 15-5.
		
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Maybe a slight mistunderstanding, he's not saying that with pschology alone you can get that sort of reduction.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2014)

Apologies if anything was said that G Mulligan thought was insulting etc - never meant that way

What would be interesting to see or read about would be some factual evidence from yourself to show us sceptics how you have helped people enhance ( if that's the right word ) their golf.


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## dontfancythisputt (Mar 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What would be interesting to see or read about would be some factual evidence from yourself to show us sceptics how you have helped people enhance ( if that's the right word ) their golf.
		
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I to would be genuinely interested to hear more on anything that is proven to help lower scores. I can certainly see some merit in both mind and talent playing big parts in golf improvement.

I have read a number of the well known golf mind books (Bob Rotella etc) and all make perfect sense but I always fail to take those ideas out with me on to the course.


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I imagine you feel exactly the same about all the GM offers especially the custom fit ones. Will the new clubs magically cure the players faults? Naturally you'd never dream of selling your soul and putting your name in for these opportunities either just to seel some advertising space and fill some pages
		
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Sorry homer but thats just a silly argument. If you actually read other posts you may grasp it. 

I wasn't having a go at GM and their opportunities, including the one you mentioned specifically. It was a general point about how it may be an interesting exercise and through that make good copy, which in turn  etc etc

In itself it's maybe interesting howver my scepticism precludes me from applying.  

There has been a degree of back tracking in the thread, but the basic premise of what was said was that the difference between a 15 and 5 handicap is mental strength. This is what I disagreed with. Confidence may be important,  self belief may be important and maybe I'm lucky because I have both, but the thought of me off 8, having a mental coach is laughable, you could argue that in its self it is a bit .......mental.


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## patricks148 (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			Sorry homer but thats just a silly argument. If you actually read other posts you may grasp it. 

I wasn't having a go at GM and their opportunities, including the one you mentioned specifically. It was a general point about how it may be an interesting exercise and through that make good copy, which in turn  etc etc

In itself it's maybe interesting howver my scepticism precludes me from applying.  

There has been a degree of back tracking in the thread, but the basic premise of what was said was that the difference between a 15 and 5 handicap is mental strength. This is what I disagreed with. Confidence may be important,  self belief may be important and maybe I'm lucky because I have both, but the thought of me off 8, having a mental coach is laughable, you could argue that in its self it is a bit .......mental.
		
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don't worry old boy i still agree with you


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## Simbo (Mar 27, 2014)

Wowser! Interesting thread!

My 2 bobs worth, to start Iv played off around 13/14 around 6 years ago since then Iv managed to get down to 5.4, I'm currently at around 6. Odds, 
the difference between 15 and 5 is MASSIVE!!
In every area if the game. I found getting to single figures challenging but not that difficult, my swing wasn't particularly great, I wasn't a great ball striker nor had a great shortgame, playing all the time and some practice was enough. I was playing to a12/13 handicap by playing once a week. To get to single figures I had to up the practice and the games. Once I got to single figures the game changed. I felt that every little swing fault was being exposed so I started taking lessons, going from 9-7 was hard work because the margin for error is very small, One lost  ball and your fighting for your card!! Windy and rainy fighting again! Probably took me 2 seasons to get these 2 shots off. Going from 7-5 was even harder, I was playing nearly 
Every night, 45 mins of putting at 6am 3 days a week before going to work in a factory for 9 hours a day, playing /practising at night.
Where I am currently at, trying to break into cat 1 is extremely hard, your margin for error is minute.
Lastly although I beleive the work of a golf psychologist is limited, the work seems very repetitive, in mr mulligans defence, mourihno/Alex ferguson were never great footballers,it didn't stop them being top coaches. I also believe that while natural ability is a percentage factor in becoming good at anything, "natural ability" is often confused with something that has been done over and over before anyone else has noticed.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			Self analysis isn't the same as paying someone Â£30 per hour for them to tell you 'stay in the moment'
		
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It's still psychology


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## fundy (Mar 27, 2014)

Have to admit, Im totally jealous of the golfers who dont need any help with the mental side of the game and have no issues in these areas, that said your swings/chipping/putting stokes must be pretty shonky if you are mentally 100% all the time for the handicaps you play off. Me, I have issues with most areas of the game at times but the mental side definitely causes me a lot of issues, if getting help on that makes me weak or mental as it appears to to some of you then so be it, just be grateful you dont have to fight this as well as your shonky swing (as plenty of us do)


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's still psychology
		
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Yep, that's the sole reason you got to 7.5


_
Put your change in your left pocket. Go on, do it. Now, tie your left shoe in a double knot.
Turn the hat backwards. Turn your hat around. Take this tee and stick it behind your left ear.  _

Â£30 please !!:thup:


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

fundy said:



			your swings/chipping/putting stokes must be pretty shonky if you are mentally 100% all the time for the handicaps you play off.
		
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. 

Yep 100%. If I mess up it's actually because I'm not very good, that's lesson 1. I have been that subject of a sports psych study at uni, I was open minded I thought it would make me a world beater (different sport)... It didn't 

You can make me think I'm tiger woods until I actually hit the ball.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



*Yep, that's the sole reason you got to 7.5*


_
Put your change in your left pocket. Go on, do it. Now, tie your left shoe in a double knot.
Turn the hat backwards. Turn your hat around. Take this tee and stick it behind your left ear.  _

Â£30 please !!:thup:
		
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Where did I say that?


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Where did I say that?
		
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Sorry thought we were responding to the OP

Summary; difference between 5 & 15, sigmund Freud says he can turn a chopper into cat 1, you agreed (kind of)....that's where I am:thup:


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			Sorry thought we were responding to the OP

Summary; difference between 5 & 15, sigmund Freud says he can turn a chopper into cat 1, you agreed (kind of)....that's where I am:thup:
		
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Sigmund Freud was a psychoanalyst I am a psychologist which are very different things. I work to change errors in thinking far more cognitive behavioural based but with plenty of biological and neural psychology to back up the techniques. Freud would probably base you anger on childhood mother/father issues. He was widely discredited by the 80s and 90s and nobody studies him other than as a historical reference; this happened, this is what he said, and this is why it was wrong.


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## Swinger (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			Sorry thought we were responding to the OP

Summary; difference between 5 & 15, sigmund Freud says he can turn a chopper into cat 1, you agreed (kind of)....that's where I am:thup:
		
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Not sure a :thup: will get you out of calling all 15 handicap players choppers Nick! Unless you think the 5 handicappers are choppers too but just not as much, then it's ok. :thup:


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Sigmund Freud was a psychoanalyst I am a psychologist which are very different things. I work to change errors in thinking far more cognitive behavioural based but with plenty of biological and neural psychology to back up the techniques. Freud would probably base you anger on childhood mother/father issues. He was widely discredited by the 80s and 90s and nobody studies him other than as a historical reference; this happened, this is what he said, and this is why it was wrong.
		
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thats why I'm not cat 1, my Mum didn't hug me enough   I do find her strangely attractive and my dad hasn't been seen since august 1988


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

Swinger said:



			Not sure a :thup: will get you out of calling all 15 handicap players choppers Nick! Unless you think the 5 handicappers are choppers too but just not as much, then it's ok. :thup:
		
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We're all choppers mate :whoo:

Where do you stand on the psych point Stevie boy ????


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## Swinger (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			We're all choppers mate :whoo:

Where do you stand on the psych point Stevie boy ????
		
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We once had a talk after a social golf event by someone who had written a book on this subject. He knows what I think of this and so does everyone else who was in the room. Unfortunately we lost contact very shortly after (during) his visit!

I personally think it's all a bit of common sense. I have listened to and read Bob Rotella books and while they offer some nice stories and soothing tones in the audio books I don't find they offer much to me. 

If you think you can do something then you standing a much better chance of relaxing and doing whatever it is you want to do then thinking you can't and trying the same thing. That to me is pretty much what it all boils down to. 

My ideal mental approach to the game would be 'popcorn screwdriver' and my general swing thought is '42' but this number can change depending on the shot I am hitting.

An interesting point though about us all being choppers. I feel the lack of practice, time and dedication are the reasons I'm a chopper and that almost any swing with a good amount of practice can get player down to a respectable handicap. I might well be on my own with that thought in a world of Pros selling lessons, mind coaches, bio mechanic people, custom fitters and retail companies. 

How about you mate? Maybe if you let me do the thinking for you tomorrow you might play the best golf ever!


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2014)

I am now down to 10 h/c and to get there from 15 it's been a lot of hard work, practice and lessons and the reduction is, for me, definitely proportionate to the amount of time I can play. However,I have read loads of golf psychology books too and there is no doubt that they have helped too in getting my mind right in different situations.

Getting from 10 to 5 is at my age going to be pretty impossible and the answer to the thread question is IMO " no, the difference is not that big it's absolutely HUGE" and evidence and statistics prove that most golfers will never achieve a 5 handicap. I wouldn't knock the mind coaches though, anything that can knock a shot or two off your handicap is worth trying.


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## User20205 (Mar 27, 2014)

Swinger said:



			How about you mate? Maybe if you let me do the thinking for you tomorrow you might play the best golf ever!
		
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I'm not letting you inside.....that's a whole world of crazy!!!!:swing:


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## Swinger (Mar 27, 2014)

therod said:



			I'm not letting you inside.....that's a whole world of crazy!!!!:swing:
		
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Shame, It could have been beautiful!


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## 3565 (Mar 27, 2014)

My first hc was 15 at 25. I played since I was 9, but at 17 -25 other vices got in the way. At 49 I'm at 2. Can a 15 hc get to 5. Yes. But when I had my first hc a psychologist wasn't the norm back then, the lower you got the harder it became to get lower, always up down up down then plateauuuuuuuuuuuuu, break through then start the cycle all over again. For umpteen yrs I stagnated at 3......... Really frustrating and my emotions got the better of me, to say I was a bad temper bugger is putting it mildly. I read the books on psychology and a lot of it I was ticking, yeah I do that, yeah and that,n that, n that, so I started to try and focus on a couple of techniques, target orientated and very specific ones at that, I can never visualise an imaginary ball flying to the target but I was focused on my target, a leaf on top of a tree in the distance....... Even with all the books it still didn't sort my temper out, but one game changed that, a foursomes match that had 3 county players playing off scratch and better and me off 3. Played out of my skin and that changed my on course attitude. Can psychology help, YES no matter what hc you are, I wished I had one 25yrs ago.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 28, 2014)

therod said:



			Sorry thought we were responding to the OP

Summary; difference between 5 & 15, sigmund Freud says he can turn a chopper into cat 1, you agreed (kind of)....that's where I am:thup:
		
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I think you actually need to read my posts again. I agree with the OP that psychology plays a part for all of us, but not that it alone can turn a 15 handicapper into a 5.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I think you actually need to read my posts again. I agree with the OP that psychology plays a part for all of us, but not that it alone can turn a 15 handicapper into a 5.
		
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NR yesterday matey. What happened? Does this mean you'll getting your psychologist on speed dial?


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## srixon 1 (Mar 28, 2014)

3565 said:



			My first hc was 15 at 25. I played since I was 9, but at 17 -25 other vices got in the way. At 49 I'm at 2. Can a 15 hc get to 5. Yes. But when I had my first hc a psychologist wasn't the norm back then, the lower you got the harder it became to get lower, always up down up down then plateauuuuuuuuuuuuu, break through then start the cycle all over again. For umpteen yrs I stagnated at 3......... Really frustrating and my emotions got the better of me, to say I was a bad temper bugger is putting it mildly. I read the books on psychology and a lot of it I was ticking, yeah I do that, yeah and that,n that, n that, so I started to try and focus on a couple of techniques, target orientated and very specific ones at that, I can never visualise an imaginary ball flying to the target but I was focused on my target, a leaf on top of a tree in the distance....... Even with all the books it still didn't sort my temper out, *but one game changed that, a foursomes match that had 3 county players playing off scratch and better and me off 3.* Played out of my skin and that changed my on course attitude. Can psychology help, YES no matter what hc you are, I wished I had one 25yrs ago.
		
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The same sort of thing happened to me. I was stuck on 5/6 for ages and never used to enter the scratch open competitions as I thought I would not measure up to all the scratch and plus golfers I was competing against. The first time I entered one of these comps I realised that I was actually a better ball striker than some of them, and this gave me the confidence (kick up the backside) that I needed to get a couple more shots off the handicap. Positive thinking can be a good thing.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 28, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			NR yesterday matey. What happened? Does this mean you'll getting your psychologist on speed dial?
		
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One of those days mate. I was clinging on to something vaguely respectable (Par at the last would have given me 84) until the last. Hit my 3rd, we all saw it bounce on the green, even found a pitch mark which was probably mine, I was expecting to find it in the back bunker but couldn't find it anywhere. I was going up 0.1 anyway so couldn't be bothered to go back.

EDIT: Just seen it was reductions only - Happy days


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## G_Mulligan (Mar 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			EDIT: Just seen it was reductions only - Happy days 

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not for fundy


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 28, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			not for fundy
		
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Ha Ha


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## 3565 (Mar 28, 2014)

srixon 1 said:



			The same sort of thing happened to me. I was stuck on 5/6 for ages and never used to enter the scratch open competitions as I thought I would not measure up to all the scratch and plus golfers I was competing against. The first time I entered one of these comps I realised that I was actually a better ball striker than some of them, and this gave me the confidence (kick up the backside) that I needed to get a couple more shots off the handicap. Positive thinking can be a good thing.
		
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I think when your getting towards the holy grail of Cat1, a whole new world opens up for you with scratch comps and that can itself bring more psychological thoughts, am I good enough, will I make an idiot of myself, but like you said you soon realise that it's not that daunting. But it takes an event/incident like that to change your outlook on your game and the kick you need. I played against hc's that were lower then me that day plus he was one of the best players in Lincolnshire so psychologically you have to up your game but with that you also unlock your potential. The problem is trying to keep tapping into that.


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## Robobum (Mar 28, 2014)

3565 said:



			I think when your getting towards the holy grail of Cat1, a whole new world opens up for you with scratch comps and that can itself bring more psychological thoughts, am I good enough, *will I make an idiot of myself*, but like you said you soon realise that it's not that daunting. But it takes an event/incident like that to change your outlook on your game and the kick you need. I played against hc's that were lower then me that day plus he was one of the best players in Lincolnshire so psychologically you have to up your game but with that you also unlock your potential. The problem is trying to keep tapping into that.
		
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One of the attributes that you need (IMO) to be low, is not giving a flying funk about what other players are doing - even in the same group.
When you adopt that approach and realise that your playing partners are the same, you'll lose tension and any nerves that you have enabling you to play with more freedom and concentrate solely on you rather than worrying what others think and trying not to make a tit of yourself.

Ignorance is bliss


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## Spear-Chucker (Mar 28, 2014)

Robobum said:



			One of the attributes that you need (IMO) to be low, is not giving a flying funk about what other players are doing - even in the same group.
When you adopt that approach and realise that your playing partners are the same, you'll lose tension and any nerves that you have enabling you to play with more freedom and concentrate solely on you rather than worrying what others think and trying not to make a tit of yourself.

Ignorance is bliss 

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Back of the net.


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## Rumpokid (Mar 28, 2014)

Yes. in answer to the question.Might not look big in terms of numbers,but getting there and more importantly,staying there will require lots of factors...Anyone who has done any distance running will know that the difference between a fast walk at 4 mph and sitting in running at say 8mph, does not look a lot (4 mph)...,however,getting to that target and staying there takes hard work,both physically and mentally.


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## dontfancythisputt (Mar 28, 2014)

Anyone mention cost?

Getting from anywhere above 5 to 5 costs money in the form of range sessions and lessons and thats ignoring any well suited equipment you may feel the need to buy.

To have 3 range sessions a week and may be 2 lessons a month would set me back about Â£100 a month! 

Im really working on my short game at the moment so get away with using my own balls on the short game area and this will hopefully see me into single figures, but im sure that to more that on to low single figures im going to have to really start improving the whole game which will mean spending lots of cash on range balls and lessons.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 28, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			Anyone mention cost?

Getting from anywhere above 5 to 5 costs money in the form of range sessions and lessons and thats ignoring any well suited equipment you may feel the need to buy.

To have 3 range sessions a week and may be 2 lessons a month would set me back about Â£100 a month! 

Im really working on my short game at the moment so get away with using my own balls on the short game area and this will hopefully see me into single figures, but im sure that to more that on to low single figures im going to have to really start improving the whole game which will mean spending lots of cash on range balls and lessons.
		
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Not to mention your psychologist's fees!

 :whoo:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			Anyone mention cost?

Getting from anywhere above 5 to 5 costs money in the form of range sessions and lessons and thats ignoring any well suited equipment you may feel the need to buy.

To have 3 range sessions a week and may be 2 lessons a month would set me back about Â£100 a month! 

Im really working on my short game at the moment so get away with using my own balls on the short game area and this will hopefully see me into single figures, but im sure that to more that on to low single figures im going to have to really start improving the whole game which will mean spending lots of cash on range balls and lessons.
		
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Doesn't always cost - I took no lessons , mainly improved by playing more so no extra cost


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## dontfancythisputt (Mar 28, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not to mention your psychologist's fees!
		
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Wife has said, get as low as you can now cause as soon as we start a family your golfing days are over!

What more mental motivation do you need!


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## dontfancythisputt (Mar 28, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesn't always cost - I took no lessons , mainly improved by playing more so no extra cost
		
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You must have natural talent or a very good mind coach


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