# Loss of childcare.. another blow



## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

So apparantly, starting Jan 2013, peeps earning over 60K lose childcare.  We will too.  While the Â£80 we get monthly, goes straight into the child trust fund, I think this is a bad move. Childcare is not cheap - more so in the south. I cant change jobs coz I wont be able to claim childcare vouchers via salary sacrifice any more. If both adults work, then 5 day nursury aroud here costs over 1K a month!! 


This coupled with the hike in rail fare (my monthly pass is approaching Â£400) and the fuel hike is going to kill us. So what is the govt trying to tell me.  The best option is to be a single parent who works at the local Burgerking/McD while the partner stays at a differnt location and earns a decent gig?


Why is the govt thinking about trying to legislate a case of social engineering.  Any quick thinking accountants who can share how to beat the system?  At this rate, dont think I will be playing much golf next year.


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## Rooter (Nov 5, 2012)

we are going to lose the child benefit too, 3 kids = Â£180 a month. while i understand that some people may not think my family deserve Â£180 per month, as it was our decision to have kids and while i earn good money why should everyone else pay... well i pay my tax like everyone else, my wife doesn't work. However, what gets me is its down to individuals and not household income. 2 people earning Â£49k each will still get the full benefit, while those individuals who earn over, lose it. 

I am not an economist or a politician, however i am not happy about it. we use the money for the kids activities and the wife takes them on days out etc. So while they will not starve with this payment stopping, it will impact them.

At the OP, most companies these days will offer tax efficient childcare voucher schemes, to say you cant move jobs because of this is silly. even if they currently dont offer them, they are very easy to set up and cost the company nothing in cash.


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			I am not an economist or a politician, however i am not happy about it. we use the money for the kids activities and the wife takes them on days out etc. So while they will not starve with this payment stopping, it will impact them.
		
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Ditto... (hopefully) no one will starve, but will affect what we do as a family.   

Suddenly all this is now becoming a 'race to the bottom', looks like the politicians will only be happy if ALL 99% of the population growls at the bottom of the economy rather than get everyone to achieve more ('race to the top')..


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			At the OP, most companies these days will offer tax efficient childcare voucher schemes, to say you cant move jobs because of this is silly. even if they currently dont offer them, they are very easy to set up and cost the company nothing in cash.
		
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At the moment we offer Childcare vouchers which is a boon. Rules changed in April 2011. So, if you change jobs, and assume you are higher tax earner, you cannot re-enrol into the Childcare voucher scheme even if the new firm has a CCV scheme.  

A mate of mine on higher tax started getting his cc vouchers in his old firm.  Late last year he moved jobs to another firm that also has a CC voucher scheme.  However, he was not allowed to enrol since his enrollment at the old firm does not count towards eligibility.


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## Snelly (Nov 5, 2012)

I have two children and totally disagree with child benefit for people that earn a decent wage.  It was our choice to have children and I cannot understand why anyone thinks that the cost to bring them up should be borne by anyone except my family and I.

The state should not give me money, just because I made the monumental decision to have children.  It is my choice and my responsibility.  I do not expect or want a handout for this.  


What I will complain about though to anyone who will listen is the fact that I don't receive any reduction on my tax burden relating to private education.   Childcare voucher schemes like Computershare or Busy Bees enable parents to pay for childcare provision from their gross income.  I would love to be able to do something similar with school fees.  After all, I am saving the state tens of thousands of pounds by not burdening the state school system with my son and daughter.


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## thecraw (Nov 5, 2012)

Oh well, that Jaguar is going to have to become an Insignia!

:ears:


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## Andy (Nov 5, 2012)

Should have kept the pen out the inkwell.


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## MadAdey (Nov 5, 2012)

I think this is a very tough subject. I can see it from both sides. Why should the tax payer pay out to parents because they choose to have children, but on the other hand why should someone who has worked hard to earn a decent wage not be given benefits like others.

I always thought the idea of the scheme was more aimed at low income families to encourage parents to go back to work when their children start school. The people on low incomes could never afford to have childcare so going to work would be hard for them as they would be paying all their wages in childcare.

My opinion on this is that if you choose to have children then it is your problem to look after them, not mine. I am sorry that sounds a bit hard and apologise to anyone that it offends, but I am not trying to wind people up I am just casting my opinion on this matter. Anyone who earns over the limit surely earns enough to be able to pay for childcare.


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## One Planer (Nov 5, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I have two children and totally disagree with child benefit for people that earn a decent wage.  It was our choice to have children and I cannot understand why anyone thinks that the cost to bring them up should be borne by anyone except my family and I.

The state should not give me money, just because I made the monumental decision to have children.  It is my choice and my responsibility.  I do not expect or want a handout for this.
		
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Bravo Snelly. I couldn't have put it better myself :thup:

We are a single income household, bringing in <20K (My wage) and while it would be nice to have a little more coming in, I agree 100% that the state should not pay out for my wife and I's decision to start a family.

We get less than Â£250/month from the government in the form of child benefit and child tax credit, but we're not entitled to working tax credi as I earn above the threshold.

What rips my knitting is the people who have no intention of working, who stay at home, breed and collect every benefit available plus all te other "perks" they can get their hands on and get more per month than we bring in working over 40 hours a week!

It's makes you wonder if an honest living is really the way forward.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			What rips my knitting is the people who have no intention of working, who stay at home, breed and collect every benefit available plus all te other "perks" they can get their hands on and get more per month than we bring in working over 40 hours a week!

It's makes you wonder if an honest living is really the way forward.
		
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Now you are close to geting me going Gareth  ha ha deep breaths Bill deeeeeeep breaths


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Oh well, that Jaguar is going to have to become an Insignia!

:ears:
		
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Indeed.. Insignia looks a bit of a luxury now..


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## One Planer (Nov 5, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			Now you are close to geting me going Gareth  ha ha deep breaths Bill deeeeeeep breaths
		
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I see we're singing from the same hymn sheet fella :thup:


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I have two children and totally disagree with child benefit for people that earn a decent wage. It was our choice to have children and I cannot understand why anyone thinks that the cost to bring them up should be borne by anyone except my family and I.

The state should not give me money, just because I made the monumental decision to have children. It is my choice and my responsibility. I do not expect or want a handout for this. 


What I will complain about though to anyone who will listen is the fact that I don't receive any reduction on my tax burden relating to private education. Childcare voucher schemes like Computershare or Busy Bees enable parents to pay for childcare provision from their gross income. I would love to be able to do something similar with school fees. After all, I am saving the state tens of thousands of pounds by not burdening the state school system with my son and daughter.
		
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Good one Snelly:clap::clap::clap::clap:

+ 1 for you.. As mentioned, I am happy to give up the Child Benefit thing provided I get support from the govt in other ways.

1) The Child care voucher is v v useful. We use it for keeping the kid busy during the day, and it takes the sting off the taxes.  
2) Why cant I use CC voucher or similar to pay for pvt school?
3) Bring back the tax rebate on mortgage payments.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			I see we're singing from the same hymn sheet fella :thup:
		
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As Churchill would say   "OOOOOOH YES"


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## JustOne (Nov 5, 2012)

vkurup said:



			At this rate, dont think I will be playing much golf next year.
		
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Says the man who yesterday was going to buy a Jag XF 

My heart bleeds for you, I'm sure the Â£80/month will be missed.... (hopefully it will end up in the hands of someone who needs it though)


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## JustOne (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			However, what gets me is its down to individuals and not household income. 2 people earning Â£49k each will still get the full benefit, while those individuals who earn over, lose it.
		
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Totally agree.... it should be something like Â£60K as an individual and Â£70K if both are working... maybe even Â£60K too,... there should definitely be an upper limit for duel earners.


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(hopefully it will end up in the hands of someone who needs it though)
		
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It wont though. It'll end up in the hands of someone who knows how to use the system better.. I will lose my child benefit next year, but thats OK. I chose to have children, I'll pay for them thank you very much...


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## JustOne (Nov 5, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I would love to be able to do something similar with school fees.  After all, I am saving the state tens of thousands of pounds by not burdening the state school system with my son and daughter.
		
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I'm not sure it's quite that much Snelly..... a few grand for sure, which I agree you should have some proportionate claim to.


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			It wont though. It'll end up in the hands of someone who knows how to use the system better.. ..
		
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And that is what gets my knickers in a twist..  I am sure we will get to the other side, but the money will go to someone who knows the system and just milks it.  So if it is going to go down the drain, why not give it to me.  My tax money keeps atleast a couple of benefit cheats warm and comfy.


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Says the man who yesterday was going to buy a Jag XF 

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Backpeddling from it..  week 2 of car hunt is now more going to be more focussed on the pocket rather than the heart.   Insignia, Astra, skoda, Berlingo .....


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2012)

Breathe Bri, just keep breathing...

Is the child tax credit an essential for you? 

Why should I be paying tax to bring up your kid(s) when I earn less than you?

Your kids, your responsibility. Cut your cloth accordingly.


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## JustOne (Nov 5, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			It wont though. It'll end up in the hands of someone who knows how to use the system better.. I will lose my child benefit next year, but thats OK. I chose to have children, I'll pay for them thank you very much...
		
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My household only gets circa Â£30K but I wouldn't winge if my child benefit was withdrawn, we'd get by.... as you say (and I agree with you) it was our choice to have kids. I *DEFINITELY* wouldn't whinge if we were making Â£60K !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rooter (Nov 5, 2012)

to the people that say "you chose to have kids" "i dont want any" "it was your decision" etc etc etc...

Who is going to be the doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, truck driver, road sweeper in 25 years time? as a society, children are required. The nation is already getting older due to enhancements in medicine and care etc. The people who slate having kids need to think a bit bigger than their little bubble.. if no-one chose to have children, who would look after them when you get old? etc etc...


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## vkurup (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			to the people that say "you chose to have kids" "i dont want any" "it was your decision" etc etc etc...

Who is going to be the doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, truck driver, road sweeper in 25 years time? as a society, children are required. The nation is already getting older due to enhancements in medicine and care etc. The people who slate having kids need to think a bit bigger than their little bubble.. if no-one chose to have children, who would look after them when you get old? etc etc...
		
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You left out 'who will choose/put you in a retirement home' in that list..


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			to the people that say "you chose to have kids" "i dont want any" "it was your decision" etc etc etc...

Who is going to be the doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, truck driver, road sweeper in 25 years time? as a society, children are required. The nation is already getting older due to enhancements in medicine and care etc. The people who slate having kids need to think a bit bigger than their little bubble.. if no-one chose to have children, who would look after them when you get old? etc etc...
		
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Unfortunately, when you start making "breeding" a career choice, then a large number of the kids who you have encouraged will be born into households where work is a 4 letter word. Nobody will want to be the doctor, policeman, truck driver etc, as they'll all want to be part of the gravy train. Kids are a product of their environment (usually)......


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## Rooter (Nov 5, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, when you start making "breeding" a career choice, then a large number of the kids who you have encouraged will be born into households where work is a 4 letter word. Nobody will want to be the doctor, policeman, truck driver etc, as they'll all want to be part of the gravy train. Kids are a product of their environment (usually)......
		
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I agree, so i am a professional working adult, my wife is also qualified in a profession (although currently a housewife), so my kids are certainly not on a gravy train. My kids have learnt very quickly the value of money and how to earn it. ie by hard work. nothing in life should be for free. you get free education, but start working and you pay it back by taxation. I agree that families living off benefits should have capped payments to a maximum number of children to prevent the "large family" milking the benefits system.

Also, while i am on a rant... those "out of work" and receiving benefits should have to work for "free" (litter picking, graffiti cleaning, care, charity work etc etc) to earn their job seekers etc etc..


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## Alan (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Also, while i am on a rant... those "out of work" and receiving benefits should have to work for "free" (litter picking, graffiti cleaning, care, charity work etc etc) to earn their job seekers etc etc..
		
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Have to agree with you on that one, people on benefits shouldn't get cash, it should be paid as a voucher scheme. You get things from the state you need to earn it.


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## JustOne (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Also, while i am on a rant... those "out of work" and receiving benefits should have to work for "free" (litter picking, graffiti cleaning, care, charity work etc etc) to earn their job seekers etc etc..
		
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NURSE!!! He's out!!!..... bring pills!!!! :whoo:


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2012)

Some folk need to get a grip.
Earning over Â£60k a year and they want the taxes paid by some single OAP to help subsidise the upbringing of the childern the chose to make.

The last months benefit I recieved for my children in 1986 helped pay for a ski holiday, I am sure that the benefit was not designed for that purpose.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			to the people that say "you chose to have kids" "i dont want any" "it was your decision" etc etc etc...

Who is going to be the doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, truck driver, road sweeper in 25 years time? as a society, children are required. The nation is already getting older due to enhancements in medicine and care etc. The people who slate having kids need to think a bit bigger than their little bubble.. if no-one chose to have children, who would look after them when you get old? etc etc...
		
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Don't be daft the smaller the population the smaller the number of people required to manage it.


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## Val (Nov 5, 2012)

Regardless of how you dress it up, anyone earning over Â£60k a year on their own doesnt deserve any help from the government and I have to say it's poor show complaining about it publicly, you wont get much sympathy here I reckon. Your kids, your choice amd should be your bill IMO.

The concept the government have of withholding child benefit for higher earners whilst right is being administered incorrectly and agree it should be household income based and not individual.


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## User20205 (Nov 5, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Regardless of how you dress it up, anyone earning over Â£60k a year on their own doesnt deserve any help from the government and I have to say it's poor show complaining about it publicly, you wont get much sympathy here I reckon. Your kids, your choice amd should be your bill IMO.

The concept the government have of withholding child benefit for higher earners whilst right is being administered incorrectly and agree it should be household income based and not individual.
		
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^^^^ this. We get it, we don't need it. We saved it up and bought a climbing frame. a really big climbing frame :thup: it was tough to put together. 

Give it to someone who needs it !!


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 5, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Also, while i am on a rant... those "out of work" and receiving benefits should have to work for "free" (litter picking, graffiti cleaning, care, charity work etc etc) to earn their job seekers etc etc..
		
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Great idea!
Get someone out of work doing a job that someone out of work could be getting paid to do. Genius.


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## Rooter (Nov 5, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Great idea!Get someone out of work doing a job that someone out of work could be getting paid to do. Genius.
		
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Well if they were out of work and getting job seekers allowance, make them earn it. If the actual paid job was available in the job centre and they didn't want it, stop their benefits. Genius!


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## GreiginFife (Nov 5, 2012)

I've just done the Direct Gov website tax credit calculator (including childcare costs) as we currently don't get any help at all. We both work full time and the wee boy is at Childminder at a cost of Â£150 per week. 
With a combined annual income of Â£50k, we are entitled to.... drum roll.... Â£0.00... Nil, nada... Bumpkiss. 

So how people earning >Â£60k are getting anything is a mystery to me. 
We chose to both work so that we can afford to have a child, I don't expect anyone else to pay for it but it boils my piss that my tax pays for others better off than we are to get something the government tell me I'm not entitled to. 
Another classic case of why this country has gone down the dunger and Labour managed to put the c**t in country.


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2012)

Child benefit mate, not tax credits. You will get child benefit. If you're not getting it then you should look into it as you are entitled to it.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 5, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Child benefit mate, not tax credits. You will get child benefit. If you're not getting it then you should look into it as you are entitled to it.
		
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Thought the OP was about childcare (childcare element of tax credit) rather than child benefit. My mistake if not. 
Don't think we claim child benefit either, can't remember filling any forms in.


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2012)

I think there's a few ramifications of a policy change currently doing the rounds. They appear to be still paying the benefit, but then fining you via the tax system the exact amount you get "paid". I've not fully looked into it yet as I only got the letter this morning.


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## G1BB0 (Nov 5, 2012)

noooooooooo, do not start me on this, very sore subject in my house.

Single parent, 3 kids and working full time. Get next to nowt off the state bar child benefit and a smidge of tax credits. take home approx 2k a month ish so not too shabby but still a struggle some months (I know my recent ebay thrifts say otherwise but I done 1k in overtime last month so it is well deserved  )

My ex however doesnt work and neither does her tosspot husband. they had 2 holidays abroad last year and are going again over christmas!!!!!!! I get Â£5 a week maintenance total for all 3. My daughter asked me how they can have holidays and their tv is bigger than ours as they dont work. I just said cos they dont pay rent etc, she said that sounds good!!! She even said why do I work overtime all the time cos we have less than them, it just slapped me in the face but it sort of made me wonder.

Maybe I should just sponge off the state and play golf every day, I think a 5 day membership would suffice saving me a bit more. I would still be off 22 though :thup:


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## Scottjd1 (Nov 5, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			Maybe I should just sponge off the state and play golf every day, I think a 5 day membership would suffice saving me a bit more. I would still be off 22 though :thup:
		
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You could play a different set of irons every day


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## thecraw (Nov 5, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			noooooooooo, do not start me on this, very sore subject in my house.

Single parent, 3 kids and working full time. Get next to nowt off the state bar child benefit and a smidge of tax credits. take home approx 2k a month ish so not too shabby but still a struggle some months (I know my recent ebay thrifts say otherwise but I done 1k in overtime last month so it is well deserved  )

My ex however doesnt work and neither does her tosspot husband. they had 2 holidays abroad last year and are going again over christmas!!!!!!! I get Â£5 a week maintenance total for all 3. My daughter asked me how they can have holidays and their tv is bigger than ours as they dont work. I just said cos they dont pay rent etc, she said that sounds good!!! She even said why do I work overtime all the time cos we have less than them, it just slapped me in the face but it sort of made me wonder.

Maybe I should just sponge off the state and play golf every day, I think a 5 day membership would suffice saving me a bit more. I would still be off 22 though :thup:
		
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Sadly some people ken how to work (well, not work actually!) and abuse the system. We have at my home club a 3 time club champion who lives of the state and plays 36 holes a day plus has his lunch and a few pints every day at the golf club! Wish my health was that bad!


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## bobmac (Nov 6, 2012)

Are you telling me that a couple living together earning a combined Â£98,000 a year get benefit? 
If so, can someone tell me why please?


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Are you telling me that a couple living together earning a combined Â£98,000 a year get benefit? 
If so, can someone tell me why please?
		
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Because means testing every family would cost more than the new policy would save. It's a sensible policy, just being done in a stupid way. Welcome to modern Britain, where it's easier to punish the middle classes than it is to ask Costa Coffee to pay their tax.


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## bobmac (Nov 6, 2012)

Because means testing every family would cost more than the new policy would save
		
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I wonder who made that decision and how much he/she earns a year.

If it's that hard to means test every household, how do they manage it on Council Tax?


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## vkurup (Nov 6, 2012)

GreiginFife said:



			Thought the OP was about childcare (childcare element of tax credit) rather than child benefit. My mistake if not. 
Don't think we claim child benefit either, can't remember filling any forms in.
		
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You are eligible for child benefit.. Approx Â£80 per week, which should take care of your child minder.. Also as neither of you earn over 50k by Jan 2013, you will continue to get the benefit.  Google child benefit and fill out the form, painless process.


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## vkurup (Nov 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Welcome to modern Britain, where it's easier to punish the middle classes than it is to ask Costa Coffee to pay their tax.
		
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That kind of sums it up.... If it was not for the golf, I wud be out


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## Val (Nov 6, 2012)

vkurup said:



			You are eligible for child benefit.. Approx Â£80 per week, which should take care of your child minder.. Also as neither of you earn over 50k by Jan 2013, you will continue to get the benefit.  Google child benefit and fill out the form, painless process.
		
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Â£80 per month with 1 child. If not I've been swindled by the gov for 17 years


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## Rooter (Nov 6, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Â£80 per month with 1 child. If not I've been swindled by the gov for 17 years
		
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Correct, well something like that anyway. Currently we get Â£180 for 3 kids. (dont shout at me, they give it to you!! I pay my taxes, so I am taking some back for now if thats ok!!) Currently EVERYONE gets child benefit (or is at least eligible for), David Cameron, Peter Jones, Madonna etc etc...


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## GreiginFife (Nov 6, 2012)

vkurup said:



			You are eligible for child benefit.. Approx Â£80 per week, which should take care of your child minder.. Also as neither of you earn over 50k by Jan 2013, you will continue to get the benefit.  Google child benefit and fill out the form, painless process.
		
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I filled in the form for child benefit. Â£20 per week. Better than nowt, that's my golf subs covered .


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 6, 2012)

The way that the Child Benefit thing will work is as follows

If you currently claim it, you will keep getting the money every 4 weeks irrespective of your income
However if anyone in your family earns more than Â£50K it will be reclaimed in their tax.

Those earning between Â£50k & Â£60K will have the benefit reclaimed on a sliding scale,  so someone earning Â£51k will keep some, whilst someone on Â£61K will have it all reclaimed.

so the winners are.......The Accountants

Fragger


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## Imurg (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			so the winners are.......The Accountants
		
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No surprise there then........


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## Val (Nov 6, 2012)

I lost child benefit too in favour of dig money 

Great when your kids start working


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## Mungoscorner (Nov 6, 2012)

Quite possibly the WORST thread i've ever seen on this forum.
Wahhhhh Wahhhhh i only earn circa Â£60k and i can't claim any childcare benefits.


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## vkurup (Nov 6, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Quite possibly the WORST thread i've ever seen on this forum.
Wahhhhh Wahhhhh i only earn circa Â£60k and i can't claim any childcare benefits.
		
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Sorry mate... that would be Nuts of the world reporting style.. or shall I say Out of context.

Dont have an issue with the CB being cut, it is all the other things around it (people milking the sys)+ the fact that fuel & rail are going up next year, that it is getting v v difficult to maintain standard of living. 

Or as bluewolf mentioned.. _it's easier to punish the middle classes than it is to ask Costa Coffee to pay their tax._


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## Rooter (Nov 6, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Quite possibly the WORST thread i've ever seen on this forum.
Wahhhhh Wahhhhh i only earn circa Â£60k and i can't claim any childcare benefits.
		
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Ok for arguments sake I earn Â£61k a year, my wife does not work, but my next door neighbors who both work and earn Â£48k a year EACH will get the benefit... that's what grates me...


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## vkurup (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Ok for arguments sake I earn Â£61k a year, my wife does not work, but my next door neighbors who both work and earn Â£48k a year EACH will get the benefit... that's what grates me...
		
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Rooter.. u need to rethink pay... 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32157d40-1d04-11e2-a17f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2BLwC02nP

,, again the accountants will make money


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## thecraw (Nov 6, 2012)

vkurup said:



			Sorry mate... that would be Nuts of the world reporting style.. or shall I say Out of context.

Dont have an issue with the CB being cut, *it is all the other things around it (people milking the sys)+ the fact that fuel & rail are going up next year, that it is getting v v difficult to maintain standard of living.* 

Or as bluewolf mentioned.. _it's easier to punish the middle classes than it is to ask Costa Coffee to pay their tax._

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Its the same for us all though, we went down to one car over a year ago due to rising costs of fuel. I now cycle in and out of work to save money, we don't eat out anywhere near as often as we used to. Everyone has to trim their cloth accordingly. While I do agree that there are other areas that the government could save money and other groups that they could target to save millions I see no need or benefit to moan about it on the forum when your probably in a better position than a lot of people on here to absorb the costs/losses. Your currently in a well paid full time job.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Its the same for us all though, we went down to one car over a year ago due to rising costs of fuel. I now cycle in and out of work to save money, we don't eat out anywhere near as often as we used to. Everyone has to trim their cloth accordingly. While I do agree that there are other areas that the government could save money and other groups that they could target to save millions I see no need or benefit to moan about it on the forum when your probably in a better position than a lot of people on here to absorb the costs/losses. Your currently in a well paid full time job.
		
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^^^^^ this. There are lots of areas where I can cut costs before I get anywhere near worrying. Anyone who has seen my car can tell you that it is an area I have already started to save on. I agree with the cut to CB, but I also want to see an aggressive stance on large corporations.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Well if they were out of work and getting job seekers allowance, make them earn it. If the actual paid job was available in the job centre and they didn't want it, stop their benefits. Genius!
		
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Sorry i haven't got back to you before now, i need to be in bed by 8 to get up at 2am to do my job.
I'am sorry Rooter but you are wrong. If the work is there offer them the job period,(sorry meant fullstop). You don't make someone work for next to nowt, thats slavery. I agree with you on benefit being witheld if they refuse the job, although i believe thats the case anyway.
 There are to many people today ready to tar everyone with the same brush. My lad was laid of a few weeks ago and has spent hours every day trolling job sites, sending countless cv's off and walking a 6mile round trip every other day to jobcentre to see what he might of missed. Offer him ajob cleaning the streets, cleaning of graffiti or wiping the backsides of incontinant patients on minimum wage and he'd jump at it. After all Â£250/wk sure beats the pittance he gets now.
 The genius has spoken.. :cheers:


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## JustOne (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Ok for arguments sake I earn Â£61k a year, my wife does not work, but my next door neighbors who both work and earn Â£48k a year EACH will get the benefit... that's what grates me...
		
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Don't want this to seem like it's 'pick on Rooter day' but if that's the arguement you put forward then send your wife out to work like your neighbours have done. Sorry but I don't buy it.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2012)

As long as those that are getting 'fed up' about how the 'system' is panning out against them are also contacting their MP and advising him/her of their displeasure I am quite happy to listen to their discontent on here or anywhere else for that matter... Let the buggers know... If for no other reason to have a good laugh at their usually predictable responses...


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

MegaSteve said:



			As long as those that are getting 'fed up' about how the 'system' is panning out against them are also contacting their MP and advising him/her of their displeasure I am quite happy to listen to their discontent on here or anywhere else for that matter... Let the buggers know... If for no other reason to have a good laugh at their usually predictable responses...
		
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I have my MP's E mither address in my contacts list. I've never yet had a satisfactory response, but I do enjoy the very high quality of headed paper that those responses come on.


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## Rooter (Nov 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Don't want this to seem like it's 'pick on Rooter day' but if that's the arguement you put forward then send your wife out to work like your neighbours have done. Sorry but I don't buy it.
		
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I have not stated anywhere i am unhappy about personally losing the benefit (i have mentioned its a pain etc, but accept it). My problem is how its been done and the fact where dual income families whom earn more than my household income still benefit from it. It should be based on both couples income, that is my issue.

For my wife to go back to work full time, we would have to spend circa Â£2200 per month in private childcare (my kids are all under 5) so financially and personally for them, we are better off with my wife at home.

EDIT - I have just emailed my Tory MP to get his views on the structure of the thresholds and the single Vs combined income debate.


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## vkurup (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			For my wife to go back to work full time, we would have to spend circa Â£2200 per month in private childcare (my kids are all under 5) so financially and personally for them, we are better off with my wife at home.
		
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We had a similar conversation at our place... so we realised we cannot afford another nipper. Wife gone back part time.  If the middle class thinks that way, the bulk of the next generation of kids are going to come from the super rich or from the other side.


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## Snelly (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Ok for arguments sake I earn Â£61k a year, my wife does not work, but my next door neighbors who both work and earn Â£48k a year EACH will get the benefit... that's what grates me...
		
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Why does that grate you? So what if they do?   It is only an issue if you feel like you want to get the benefits too. My advice would be to work harder, earn more and move house.  Get some new neighbours! 

There will always be some people that are at the threshold of every means tested benefit. 

This is a red herring though.  My opinion is that it is a choice to have children or not. If you can't afford to look after them within your means, based on the lifestyle you choose then don't have kids.  The state should not pay someone just because they have made a baby.


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## Val (Nov 6, 2012)

vkurup said:



			Sorry mate... that would be Nuts of the world reporting style.. or shall I say Out of context.

Dont have an issue with the CB being cut, it is all the other things around it (people milking the sys)+ the fact that fuel & rail are going up next year, that it is getting v v difficult to maintain standard of living. 

Or as bluewolf mentioned.. _it's easier to punish the middle classes than it is to ask Costa Coffee to pay their tax._

Click to expand...

_

If luxuries need to give then so be it they are luxuries after all, I'd be surprised if someone earning Â£60k was on the breadline._


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## JustOne (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			I have not stated anywhere i am unhappy about personally losing the benefit (i have mentioned its a pain etc, but accept it).
		
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I noticed, like I said it's not pick on Rooter day but I didn't agree with that argument you put forward. :thup:

As Snelly points out there will always be people that fall on the cut off point who will either be lucky or unlucky. I tend not to look over my neighbours fence to see how much they've got, earn, or whether only one of them or both leave for work....

.....although that might be a result of me plain and simply being poor


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## DCB (Nov 6, 2012)

Surely this thread is just a fishing trip. No way can this be taken seriously I'm afraid.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

I guess that it all boils down to whether you think that having children is a "right" or a "luxury". We considered all the cost implications before deciding to have a second child. We decided we could afford it, therefore we went ahead. However, we appear to live in a society in which children are viewed as a "right".


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## JustOne (Nov 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			We considered all the cost implications before deciding to have a second child.
		
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My missus said "I'm up the duff again" and that was that... belt tightened and I started playing AD333's instead of ProV's


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2012)

For every scrounger working the system there are loads of people too proud to claim the benefits they are entitled to.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2012)

Rooter said:



			EDIT - I have just emailed my Tory MP to get his views on the structure of the thresholds and the single Vs combined income debate.
		
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Well done Rooter... Those we vote in need to be reminded that they are there to represent us NOT the party leaders!


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## SS2 (Nov 6, 2012)

MegaSteve said:



			...contacting their MP and advising him/her of their displeasure...
		
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Yes, let's all contact our MPs and they'll sort it all out for us. Have you never seen The Thick Of It or Yes Minister ? 

While we're at it let's get the MPs to change international law so that Costa Coffee/Vodafone/Amazon etc pay their Corp Tax here instead of in Luxembourg. Surely they could do that for us although Nadine Dorries might be struggling to find the time: http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...we-be-paying-nadine-dorries-while-shes-jungle


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2012)

SS2 said:



			Yes, let's all contact our MPs and they'll sort it all out for us.
		
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That'll never happen... So lets just stay sat at the bar whinging about our lot while the poo continues to pile in!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 6, 2012)

I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger


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## thecraw (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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Cut your cloth!

Simple.


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## NWJocko (Nov 6, 2012)

The 2 people earning Â£49K each is a bit of a weird one as their tax contribution to the state is much higher than 1 person earning Â£60k + (up to a point).

I imagine some people on "high" income (Â£60k+) budget for the child benefit, the question would be what else are they spending their money on where, on that level of salary, they are reliant on Â£120 or so a month to get by?  As craw says there are ways to adjust your finances to negate the impact.

We "lose" it (still paid to my wife but my tax adjusted) and I have no problem with that, in principle.  The problem is the way benefits are distributed that frustrates me but that is a much wider debate, but it does lead to some of the anger felt at the loss of child benefit I feel.


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## Rooter (Nov 6, 2012)

Sensible posts from Philthefragger and NWjocko. However, can i just question Â£700 a month on food for a family of 4??!! What are you eating? Caviar encrusted swan? My family of 5, we spend Â£300 a month on food and stuff (ie cleaning crap, supermarket shopping..)


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## Tiger (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse,
		
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Fragger some of those costs you've quoted are bonkers. Â£300 a month for utilities! Â£200 a month for life and buildings insurance!!! Sorry don't buy it. We can't complain about the faltering economy and not expect cuts in expenditure. I remember the mad Â£250 for every child to open a savings account. What a crock of nonsense that was. And to be perfectly honest the fact this conversation is taking place on a golf forum of all places is laughable. 

We've just had our second child but we waited until I changed jobs because we couldn't afford it and the standard of living we wanted on my old salary. I'm with snelly and craw on this one plan to pay for your family yourself and if things change cut your cloth accordingly. Our family, our responsibility.


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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Oh me sides!! You're killing me...

The high earning family has chosen to spend their money on what can only be described as an expensive lifestyle. You chose your mortgage, which in turn means you chose your Council TaxAfter you've taken the CB off your income its gone down by less than Â£1k. Maybe you should have planned for that, and your child going to uni. After all, you knew it was coming.

Can you tell me the difference between someone on the minimum wage getting every benefit going and someone on Â£60+k grabbing what they can? In my view the guy on minimum wage has little choice but you...

Try putting 4 thro' uni on half that...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2012)

Jings there are a few on here that need to realise that they must live within there means.
My daughters friends fella is Â£30k in debt, what does he do, he takes out a loan on a new Â£40k car.
I assume from the salaries some of these folk earn that they have a brain.
Why do they choose to pay so much more for things they [a] cannot afford * lose all of thier value by the time they are finally paid for...........eughhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I blame the parents.*


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## Mungoscorner (Nov 6, 2012)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides!! You're killing me...

The high earning family has chosen to spend their money on what can only be described as an expensive lifestyle. You chose your mortgage, which in turn means you chose your Council TaxAfter you've taken the CB off your income its gone down by less than Â£1k. Maybe you should have planned for that, and your child going to uni. After all, you knew it was coming.

Can you tell me the difference between someone on the minimum wage getting every benefit going and someone on Â£60+k grabbing what they can? In my view the guy on minimum wage has little choice but you...

Try putting 4 thro' uni on half that...
		
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+1

Very well put.


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## Andy (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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That is as Gash as Westwood's short game Fragger. 

Utter tripe!


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## Val (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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Â£1200 for a mortgage and council tax? Â£300 for gas and electricity?

That's almost as much of a laugh as the OP.


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## moogie (Nov 6, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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I hear violins.............:angry:


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## Iaing (Nov 6, 2012)

It seems to me there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread, and indeed in society in general!
Scrounging seems to be acceptable if the scrounger earns in excess of Â£60k whereas the lower class ( to use the terminology used by some in this thread) are vilified.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

Who used the terminology "lower class"?  I used "middle class" as defined by the people earning in excess of Â£60k, I would not have used "lower class", I may use "working class", but that's how I predominantly refer to myself. Did someone actually use the term "lower class".


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## Iaing (Nov 6, 2012)

If you use the term "middle class" it follows that there is a "lower class" and an "upper class".

Why would you describe yourself as middle class if you work, and not working class?


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

Also, why is it scrounging? I may not agree with it, but the fact remains that currently, everyone is entitled to child benefit. People (of any class) who do something with the express intention of claiming a benefit are scrounging. People who claim what they are entitled to are not scrounging. Is using the NHS scrounging when you can afford private medical care?


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2012)

Iaing said:



			If you use the term "middle class" it follows that there is a "lower class" and an "upper class".

Why would you describe yourself as middle class if you work, and not working class?
		
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So the middle classes don't work eh??  I describe myself as working class as that's how I was brought up. Others may describe me as middle class based on earnings or lifestyle. I wouldn't use the term lower class, as stated, I'd use working class. You appear to be putting words into my mouth to suit your argument.


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## Iaing (Nov 6, 2012)

To keep things a bit simpler, why not lose the classes and use the terms "lower income", "middle income", and "skysthefeckinlimitupperincome"? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c


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## the hammer (Nov 6, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings there are a few on here that need to realise that they must live within there means.
My daughters friends fella is Â£30k in debt, what does he do, he takes out a loan on a new Â£40k car.
I assume from the salaries some of these folk earn that they have a brain.
Why do they choose to pay so much more for things they [a] cannot afford * lose all of thier value by the time they are finally paid for...........eughhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I blame the parents.*

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*

 I wouldnt blame the parents, its society in general.
What do they say about burglars , criminals etc...they're not bothered because theres no deterrent , nothing to bother them if they get caught. so , the daughters fella is Â£70k in debt, what will happen to him?keep up the payments, no probs, if he cant, the cars gone, no probs.*


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2012)

Iaing said:



			To keep things a bit simpler, why not lose the classes and use the terms "lower income", "middle income", and "skysthefeckinlimitupperincome"? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c

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Hi Laing
I went for 40 years thinking that I had seen that sketch live at London Weekend Studios.
I started writing stories about my life for a bit of fun after I retired. As I researched the date I realised that I could not have been there. I had seen an episode of The Frost Report with the same cast about 2 weeks earlier.
Funny old thing memory!.


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm sorry but we pull in about Â£33k and as a young family it may not mean its easy but it's do-able. We get about Â£7 a week tax credit and Â£80 a month. Plus we pay Â£300 of the nursery fees through childcare vouchers. In the end after bills it's about Â£850 minus about Â£55 for mobiles. Then Â£40 a week petrol. So Â£600. Oh wait. Another Â£180 on childcare so...Â£420 for food and luxuries...

If we brought in double...I would not expect a single penny!!!!

The guy earning Â£49k....that plenty to live on. If you're finding it tough...cut back!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 6, 2012)

Andy said:



			That is as Gash as Westwood's short game Fragger. 

Utter tripe!
		
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No Andy its not tripe, im playing devils advocate to a certain extent, but making a point that any family, regardless of income, who has had child benefit coming in for any length of time , will have got used to it being there, and its removal will have an effect on the family budget.

Im just making the point that Higher earners are not exempt from financial pressure, The only part of my post that related to my circumstances is the last part about having a kid at Uni (and 2 more in the next 4 years) and making the point that I have lost her child Benefit, and having to find Â£500 a month to keep her. 

Im not getting out my begging bowl or asking for violins, im just making a point that no matter how much you earn, it all goes

Fragger


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## USER1999 (Nov 6, 2012)

I thought that middle classes were defined by aspirations of home ownership. Hence if you own a home you bought, you're middle class, what ever you might like to think you might be.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 6, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I thought that middle classes were defined by aspirations of home ownership. Hence if you own a home you bought, you're middle class, what ever you might like to think you might be.
		
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YIPPEE !!!
I've made it. I must remember to vote tory next time out. :whoo:


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

Tiger said:



			And to be perfectly honest the fact this conversation is taking place on a golf forum of all places is laughable.
		
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Seriously?

... there's a thread called "Rangers" with 1,350 replies!!...... anything can be discussed in the OOB section, even rubbish


And you lot, stop picking on Fragger....!!! oo:


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## Rooter (Nov 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			And you lot, stop picking on Fragger....!!! oo:
		
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I am with Fragger and bluewolf on this one.. i think this thread has almost run its cause now, i appreciate its a touchy subject for some so will leave the rest of my political opinions for the pub/golf course.


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 7, 2012)

Rooter said:



			I am with Fragger and bluewolf on this one.. i think this thread has almost run its cause now, i appreciate its a touchy subject for some so will leave the rest of my political opinions for the pub/golf course.
		
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This is allways going to be a touchy subject when people earning over 60k/ yr start whinging about benefit cuts. You need to remember that whilst these cuts might mean you can't afford that new jag you had set your heart on, there are tens of thousands of people in this country struggling to put food on the table. People working 40+ hrs a week for less than a quarter of your 60k.
On a positive note though, at least Obama won. :thup:


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## jammydodger (Nov 7, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I unsure why some people think that anyone earning Â£60k is some kind of super rich person with a millionaire lifestyle

After tax and NI, that Â£60k has reduced to Â£40K  or Â£3333 a month,Still substantial but then lets look at all the outgoings for a typical family of 4

Mortgage/Rent Â£1000, Food Â£700, Council Tax Â£200, Utilities Â£300, Insurance Life & Buildings) Â£200, Car costs,( Tax, Insurance Petrol Service) Â£250, Just that is Â£2700 and thats without including any golf, Holidays, school trips,  entertainment, if you have a student at uni its even worse, 

So lets get away from the idea that taking away child benefit is easily absorbed by a high earning family, 

In our case its a double wammy, Our eldest has just gone to Uni, so Child benefit has stopped for her, but im having to payout Â£600 per term for her Student Hall ( the rest is on a student loan) and also Â£75 a week for her food.

Might have to go and sell my body

Fragger
		
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Fragger , I like you and your posts generally make me smile. BUT...you're in cloud cuckoo land with this post. If you think its hard to get by when you clear Â£3333 per month you need a big reality check. Devils advocate or not some of those figures are unbelievable in my eyes. This might be why people are finding it hard to get by. If I brought that amount in i'd save about Â£25K a year and be laughing for retirement. 

I would think with the costs of living folk would be finding ways to adjust downwards their expectations. Â£700 per month on food !! Try shopping for savers/own brand products that are just as good and a quarter of the price. Â£1000 per month for mortgage , try finding a house thats a home and not the biggest one you can possibly 'afford' (council tax would then be lower too ). Â£300 on utilities , never ever in a million years should it cost this much. Then you add in holidays and entertainment etc , if you cant afford a holiday then dont go. I suppose these people have to have the latest Iphone and the biggest TV possible too. And maybe those little darlings need their own phone and TV and top of the range computer/XBOX Nike trainers etc etc

I have zero sympathy for anyone who cant budget when earning those sorts of sums , try doing it with half that amount and you'll learn the art of budgeting within your means.

Jammy the disgruntled


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## MegaSteve (Nov 7, 2012)

jammydodger said:



			Â£1000 per month for mortgage , try finding a house thats a home and not the biggest one you can possibly 'afford' (council tax would then be lower too ).
		
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Â£1000 a month just about gets you a 'basic' family home in this neck of the woods and I am sure it'll be more elsewhere...


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## Rooter (Nov 7, 2012)

MegaSteve said:



			Â£1000 a month just about gets you a 'basic' family home in this neck of the woods and I am sure it'll be more elsewhere...
		
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Amen, Taken from the BBC the average UK house price is Â£238,638. IF you are lucky enough to have saved well and can get a decent deposit of 25%, thats Â£59,659 leaving Â£178,979 to be mortgaged. Average is 2% discounted for 2 years, then 4-5% ish above base rate of interest (if you are lucky) so you would pay Â£800ish for 2 years, then that would increase to Â£1019 per month. That is for an AVERAGE house with a pretty hefty Â£60k deposit!!

Now Â£238 in some parts of the country may get you a pretty nice house!! some other parts however, not so much.. 

Just putting things in perspective..


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## vkurup (Nov 7, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I thought that middle classes were defined by aspirations of home ownership. Hence if you own a home you bought, you're middle class, what ever you might like to think you might be.
		
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I bought a home.. though technically it is still owned by the bank for the next 25 years while I slave away to pay it off..






jammydodger said:



			Â£1000 per month for mortgage , try finding a house thats a home and not the biggest one you can possibly 'afford' (council tax would then be lower too ).
		
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The day I hit 1K in mortgage payment, i will take the day off and play golf.  Try finding a 'suitable' home at the price in Surrey. In order to get a 60K+ pay, you need to work in London. Which means you have a lot of cost involved in getting that pay. Just looking at avg house prices for a 4 bed terraced/semi in our area, cant find a desirable one under 450K. If I dont get a garden, where will I practice my swing?

EDIT - stop picking on my Jag..  I have consigned that to a wet dream.


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## Andy (Nov 7, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			No Andy its not tripe, im playing devils advocate to a certain extent, but making a point that any family, regardless of income, who has had child benefit coming in for any length of time , will have got used to it being there, and its removal will have an effect on the family budget.

Im just making the point that Higher earners are not exempt from financial pressure, The only part of my post that related to my circumstances is the last part about having a kid at Uni (and 2 more in the next 4 years) and making the point that I have lost her child Benefit, and having to find Â£500 a month to keep her. 

Im not getting out my begging bowl or asking for violins, im just making a point that no matter how much you earn, it all goes

Fragger
		
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Don't become reliant then and live on what you can afford without benefits.

But don't say 60k is hard to live on when folk are sleeping on a pavement with a sheet of cardboard as a house!

Wake up and smell the coffee Phil


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## vkurup (Nov 7, 2012)

Andy said:



			Don't become reliant then and live on what you can afford without benefits.

But don't say 60k is hard to live on when folk are sleeping on a pavement with a sheet of cardboard as a house!

Wake up and smell the coffee Phil
		
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Am with the Fragger.. higher earner dont 'depend' on it, but the loss is not immaterial. 
The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.


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## Hobbit (Nov 7, 2012)

vkurup said:



			In order to get a 60K+ pay, you need to work in London. Which means you have a lot of cost involved in getting that pay. Just looking at avg house prices for a 4 bed terraced/semi in our area, cant find a desirable one under 450K. If I dont get a garden, where will I practice my swing?

EDIT - stop picking on my Jag..  I have consigned that to a wet dream.
		
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You don't have work in London to earn Â£60k...



vkurup said:



			Am with the Fragger.. higher earner dont 'depend' on it, but the loss is not immaterial. 
The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.
		
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Budgeting; just because someone earns enough to get a xx bedroom house in a leafy suburb doesn't mean they have to. We could have  afforded to stretch to a 5 bed, 3 bathroom blah blah blah but knew we had children who would be going to uni.

And rather than include child benefit in the day to day budgeting, i.e. use it towards funding a bigger home/holidays/iphone, we put it away and gave it to the kids to fund their start up at uni.

Willy waving; our 3 bed, 3 bathroom detached with conservatory in a nice area cost Â£148k last year. And there's room on the drive for the A6.... just about stretch to it on Â£64k...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 7, 2012)

Hobbit said:



			Willy waving; our 3 bed, 3 bathroom detached with conservatory in a nice area cost Â£148k last year....
		
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My lad will be pleased on hearing this... He can get a transfer up north with his current employers... Once his good lady wife completes her mid-wifery training... Its northwards they intend to head... 148K gets you a one bed apartment at best on our doorstep...


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## walshawwhippet (Nov 7, 2012)

EDIT - stop picking on my Jag..  I have consigned that to a wet dream.[/QUOTE]

NO :ears:
Seriously though, have you considered lease hire?
I've seen deals around for the XF for around Â£340/mth. I now this means you don't own the car but i won't tell if you don't. :thup:


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## vkurup (Nov 7, 2012)

walshawwhippet said:



			Seriously though, have you considered lease hire?
I've seen deals around for the XF for around Â£340/mth. I now this means you don't own the car but i won't tell if you don't. :thup:
		
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All our cars have been on PCP contracts.  Currently more worried about the residual value of the XF at the end of 3 years.  Also, trying to swing another deal.. update on car coming soon..


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

higher earner dont 'depend' on it,
		
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Well dont take it then.
The amount of cash available for benefit is not a bottomless pit.
If you are taking out some of the pie that you dont need, there's less pie left to go round for those who do.

You worry about the depreciation of the Jag while pensioners worry about keeping warm this winter.




			The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be  broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.
		
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I'm sorry, but that's some of the biggest drivel I've heard on here for a long time.


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## Rooter (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, but that's some of the biggest drivel I've heard on here for a long time.
		
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I disagree to an extent Bob. I will explain why...

I believe a lot of the problem is based on society, personal image and perception. Its the "keep up with the jones' mentality. Society as a whole put a lot of pressure on "getting on the housing ladder" etc. Do Germany have the better idea, where almost 85% of people live in rented accommodation, and it is pretty rare to own your own house there.

Today's society is all pushed down your throat garbage of flash cars, big watches, my grass is greener than yours. Its very very easy to fall into the subtle traps, and before you know it you are buying a new car every 3 years to maintain your image, even if your old car is perfectly good and its probably 80% paid off!

I know its down to the individual to not get into these "games" and from an outsider perspective it may look stupid (it actually is!) but once you have set yourself up with a big mortgage, big car payments etc, i am pretty sure its probably very hard to down grade..


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

I believe a lot of the problem is based on society
		
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Nothing new there




			but once you have set yourself up with a big mortgage, big car payments  etc, i am pretty sure its probably very hard to down grade..
		
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Hes not talking about downgrading, he said that as you get paid more you spend more so you're always broke.




			update on car coming soon..
		
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Keep it to yourself, I'm not really interested I'm afraid.


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## jammydodger (Nov 7, 2012)

vkurup said:



			The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.
		
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Every time I've ever got a pay rise I havnt just suddenly decided that i'll change my lifestyle and start spending more. I have used that increase to help pay more off my mortgage and lived the same , ie bought the same food and shopped the same etc. If you want to use your payrises to fund an extravagant lifestyle to keep up with the Jones' and have a 'look at me' image with flashy cars and a big house in a sort after neighbourhood then fine. BUT dont start crying when you lose a comparably tiny amount in benefits that you really shouldn't need and frankly dont deserve.


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## Snelly (Nov 7, 2012)

vkurup said:



			The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.
		
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That is a conscious choice though, not a mandatory step.


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## Andy (Nov 7, 2012)

vkurup said:
			
		


			The sad reality is that irrespective of your income level, you will be broke as rise in income almost always equates to rise in expenditure.
		
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More fool you.


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## Rooter (Nov 13, 2012)

MegaSteve said:



			Well done Rooter... Those we vote in need to be reminded that they are there to represent us NOT the party leaders!
		
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Well I got a reply! Basically it said tough luck, some in, some lose. And how now those on the breadline re not subsidising the "rich". Then a load of guff about how it's labours fault...

A written reply though through post, and I didn't even give my address in my email to them! The government know everything!


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## MegaSteve (Nov 13, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Well I got a reply! Basically it said tough luck, some in, some lose. And how now those on the breadline re not subsidising the "rich". Then a load of guff about how it's labours fault...

A written reply though through post, and I didn't even give my address in my email to them! The government know everything!
		
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Well at least you took the time and trouble to contact your MP's office and someone has written a reply however meaningless... Getting a bit fed up though on the standard excuse that all the problems are from the previous administration... But then again thats always been the case... Do believe in reminding our members of parliament and local councillors that we are there and perhaps a bit more thought on our opinions is in order... I know of at least two occasions of involving our MP/councillor that has seen local bureacratic decisions reversed... On other occasions we didn't do so well...


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 13, 2012)

It is kind of the previous administrations faul. Maybe we should become a dictatorship because then they could only blame themselves


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## vkurup (Nov 13, 2012)

Rooter said:



			A written reply though through post, and I didn't even give my address in my email to them! The government know everything!
		
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I wud love to know how they figured the address out?  (or is the GM forum under surveillance?


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 13, 2012)

vkurup said:



			I wud love to know how they figured the address out?  (or is the GM forum under surveillance?
		
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Council tax bill...electoral role?...plenty to go off there


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## vkurup (Nov 13, 2012)

DappaDonDave said:



			Council tax bill...electoral role?...plenty to go off there
		
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You would think that the govt has a 'single view of the citizen'... i guess not..  Rooter sent only stated his email address, they responded via snail mail!!! So there is somehting else at work.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2012)

If the country could shake off the 'dependency culture' and make people responsible for their own actions then hard work really would pay off and the fear of poverty would motivate.  OK, we have to shelter the 'misfortunate' but that definition has become so corrupted it has no clear boundary anymore.

There is no such thing as a 'free dinner', someone has to pay for it.  Many people today seem to think their benefits come from the Government, they dont understand the money has been stolen from working people, often worse off than the recipient.


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## DappaDonDave (Nov 14, 2012)

vkurup said:



			You would think that the govt has a 'single view of the citizen'... i guess not..  Rooter sent only stated his email address, they responded via snail mail!!! So there is somehting else at work.
		
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Census?...

So you think the government has a database with all your details on that thy can search if they need you??...hmmmm


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## vkurup (Nov 14, 2012)

DappaDonDave said:



			Census?...

So you think the government has a database with all your details on that thy can search if they need you??...hmmmm
		
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Highly unlikely.. it is more likely tat you have written to them in the past and they have maintained a record of your prev correspondence.  Otherwise the govt's ability to correlate names and different address is as good as its ability to resists further taxation.


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## Rooter (Nov 14, 2012)

vkurup said:



			Highly unlikely.. it is more likely tat you have written to them in the past and they have maintained a record of your prev correspondence.  Otherwise the govt's ability to correlate names and different address is as good as its ability to resists further taxation.
		
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Have never written to my MP before. I can only presume they looked me up on the council tax system or similar. I doubt very much there are any other "Scott Roots" in the Newbury constituency.

That or GCHQ are watching us all and reporting back to your local minister!!


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## vkurup (Nov 14, 2012)

Rooter said:



			That or GCHQ are watching us all and reporting back to your local minister!!
		
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or simply go to 192.com and type your name.. u will b amazed how much info is public.


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## Rooter (Nov 14, 2012)

vkurup said:



			or simply go to 192.com and type your name.. u will b amazed how much info is public.
		
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Beauty! they have me as aged between 25-29 LOL


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## vkurup (Nov 14, 2012)

Rooter said:



			Beauty! they have me as aged between 25-29 LOL
		
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that might be ur handicap..


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## Rooter (Nov 14, 2012)

vkurup said:



			that might be ur handicap..
		
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LOL i just spat 1/2 a mouth full of tea out then!!


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