# Farleigh Court Golf Club BANNED me from their driving range today!!



## JustOne (Oct 5, 2013)

The other week with Virtuocity:

I was at the range all day with Virtuocity, we hit balls probably for 5hrs, for the last hour or so there were a couple of old guys just watching Virtuocity and I hit balls and go thru a few things together (camera, alignment sticks, chatting about swing positions and hitting balls), I had seen one of the old guys really struggling to hit his driver with the few shots he had hit with it. As we were leaving this old guy on the last 'bay' was staring me down as we walked past so I asked him if everything was OK, he asked if I gave lessons and I said no and I wasn't from around here anyway, then I said to him that I'd noticed him struggling with his driver and it was because he was standing very close to it and swinging it too steep like a 9-iron and if he stood away from it a little and swung it on a bit of a flatter plane he'd hit it better - Virtuocity and I left and we went home.


Wednesday:

At the range with Jimbooo when the head pro Steve Stiller came zipping down to the range on his golf buggy came straight over to me and ask if I was a PGA pro, I said that I wasn't and he said because if I was I had to leave as they don't allow other PGA pros to come and use their facilities for teaching their own student privately. I assured him that I wasn't and that I was just there teaching my mate Jimboo as I had already done 3 or 4 times previously, he said that he didn't believe me and we discussed how he didn't think I would be there for free but conceded that there was no way that either of us could prove it either way however he'd heard that I'd offered to give one of his members a lesson (eh?) I was pretty surprised at this but did explain the old guy who was standing too close to his driver and it was just a 'tip' as I was already leaving. I explained that I had/have no intention on teaching anyone from Farleigh Court Golf Club as they are the 'property of the club' so to speak and I respect the fact that the pros have to make a living, however the person I was currently there with (Jimbooo) wouldn't drive to Farleigh for a 30 minute lesson as he wanted to spend the time with me at the range and then we would probably play 18 holes after (which we did). Steve Stiller seemed pretty reasonable and said OK, no problem, if you're not a pro and you're not charging then so be it. I then told him i had arranged to meet someone else this coming Saturday (today) and he said that was OK but not to teach his members - I explained that I normally keep myself to myself and I wouldn't approach any anyway, in fact if they asked I would refer them straight to the club pros, of course!!

Saturday (today)

Went to the range with 'Midnight' (he's a policeman so I know he'll back me up on this in a court of law!!! LOL), he'd left his house at 5.30am to get to the range to meet me (over a 2hr drive). I got there and we headed to the range at 9.15am, about 11.30am Steve Stiller the head professional at Farleigh Court Golf Club came zipping down to the range on his golf buggy, straight over to me and said "You can't teach here any more" I asked why and he said that he didn't want me teaching his members (which I wasn't) and that he couldn't believe that I was teaching all day FOR FREE and that I wasn't to come there any more to use the driving range. I explained my love for the game and that people ask to spend time with me and I just do it as a hobby because I WANT TO but he wasn't having any of it, I explained that Midnight had driven for over 2hrs to meet me and that he'd NEVER drive that far just to get a 30 minute lesson which is why I'm prepared to spend all day if necessary - to which he basically looked at me like I was mad and said that he didn't believe me and that I wasn't there for free. Once again I pointed out that Midnight had driven for over 2hrs and would it be possible for us to at least finish out our day as it would be unfair if he had to drive that far for nothing - we stayed until it got dark.


So there you go.... *If I was a PGA qualified I'm not allowed to even be there* to use their facilities,...


and as an amateur they don't want me there teaching my 'friends, family, colleagues, or anyone else who knows me... for free!!! (which they don't believe anyway!)




Can't be there as a pro, can't be there as an amateur - Snookered!!!! 


(That was a bit of a read, sorry 'bout that, just wanted to get it down in words)


----------



## Pin-seeker (Oct 5, 2013)

I reckon you should av told him to stick his head up his .......


----------



## JustOne (Oct 5, 2013)

Jimbooo was literally about to 'POP' on Wednesday. He was really angry, not just with the pro, but with the 'system'.


----------



## SGC001 (Oct 5, 2013)

It's difficult, you seem to enjoy helping your friends and maybe see it as giving the driving range business which is understandable.

They may look at it as they have a business and anyone teaching on their range reflects on their business and themselves, whether you are a PGA pro from elsewhere or a well meaning amateur is only part of the argument. They might view it as a positive or a negative. It seems in this case it was a negative.

It might have helped if you'd warned or asked them in advance and they could have explained to any members asking what was happening. 

Maybe you could try a few other ranges around you, explain what you'd like to do, when and for how long and hopefully for you their may be some that are more amenable to your requirements.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 5, 2013)

^
^
^
I agree. In the time I've been there I have been asked by at least 8/9 people if I'm a new addition to the teaching staff to which I've replied politely "No sorry, I'm just here teaching a friend" (one asked this evening in fact as Midnight and I were leaving).

Talking to one of my colleagues this evening on the phone said it might be because people are going into the pro shop and either asking for a lesson with me (and finding out that I don't work there) or asking the pros in the shop why they don't receive such 'good service' when they have their own lessons - I can see why this might cause a problem. When we're there EVERYONE watches.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2013)

It may be worth talking to someone about the law of competition and whether the range can lawfully interject with your coaching.  There are various UK and EU laws that regulate competition, maybe a word with CAB would help.


----------



## Rooter (Oct 5, 2013)

JustOne said:



			When we're there EVERYONE watches.
		
Click to expand...

Yeh I get that when me and the mrs park up the car........


----------



## JustOne (Oct 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It may be worth talking to someone about the law of competition and whether the range can lawfully interject with your coaching.  There are various UK and EU laws that regulate competition, maybe a word with CAB would help.
		
Click to expand...

I don't like to complain 

Right now I'm just annoyed, really rather annoyed... let's say you went there for a day with Snelly so he could teach you his way of swinging the club (which is nice) and you were there for 5/6hrs chatting and he was watching you hit balls and videoing you on his iPhone..... do you think he should be told to leave and he couldn't 'teach' his friend? maybe they would think he was charging if he was there for more than a couple of hours, after all you have to be MAD to give up your time for FREE!!!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2013)

Rooter said:



			Yeh I get that when me and the mrs park up the car........
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Evesdad (Oct 5, 2013)

Mmm a tricky one. I can sort of understand their view but you're not teaching their members. Also how many buckets do you get through? Surley that's extra income they wouldn't be getting!


----------



## CMAC (Oct 5, 2013)

isnt there a register of UK PGA pro's?


----------



## richart (Oct 5, 2013)

Rooter said:



			Yeh I get that when me and the mrs park up the car........
		
Click to expand...

 Hope she will not be with you at West Hill then. I am sure dogging is banned in their car park.


----------



## percy_layer (Oct 5, 2013)

Do the teaching pros there pay a rent or percentage to the range? 
I can't imaging a teaching pro having an issue with a couple amateurs helping each other while practicing together, but planned coaching may be an issue. 
If I was the Head Pro there, I would be concerned. I'd want to know what you were doing and what you were teaching, it may reflect on the business.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I don't like to complain 

Right now I'm just annoyed, really rather annoyed... let's say you went there for a day with Snelly so he could teach you his way of swinging the club (which is nice) and you were there for 5/6hrs chatting and he was watching you hit balls and videoing you on his iPhone..... do you think he should be told to leave and he couldn't 'teach' his friend? maybe they would think he was charging if he was there for more than a couple of hours, after all you have to be MAD to give up your time for FREE!!! 

Click to expand...

I think the devil may be in the detail.   They should have terms and conditions (They probably don't though) if they do then it should have an explanation on whether private coaching is prohibited.   If they do it does not mean this is legal though.

I would be inclined to ask them for a copy of their Terms and Conditions as you wish to refer their actions to the relevant authorities on the basis of restricted practice.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2013)

If you are seen as any sort of threat to their business and on their property, then I'm not surprised they reacted the way they did.

You should probably find a 'friendly' range and get approval first. 

The range I  used to practice at in Warrington had a couple of Pros come and teach. Not sure whether they were PGA qualified or not, but it shows it can be arranged. It could well just be a case of putting your diplomat hat on and getting it Ok-ed - and the story for 'interested observers' straight. Thought of using your own, or even previous, club's facility?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Thought of using your own, or even previous, club's facility?
		
Click to expand...

Too small, can't hit more than a 7-iron on the practice ground.  No range, poor chipping facilities (at either course).


----------



## jp5 (Oct 6, 2013)

I'd just keep turning up there, what are they going to do?


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Too small, can't hit more than a 7-iron on the practice ground.  No range, poor chipping facilities (at either course).
		
Click to expand...

Interesting choice of clubs then. Several holes you decidedly dislike and pretty poor practice facilities. Must be either very cheap or very close.

Time to get on the phone and find a friendly range?.

You might find there are some bureaucracy issues too.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Interesting choice of clubs then. Several holes you decidedly dislike and pretty poor practice facilities. Must be either very cheap or very close.
		
Click to expand...

Cheap enough, and close. It's fine for me as I don't need the practice facilities because I just go out and play, and it's very friendly, but if you were going to go there to teach someone for the day it's very limited. There's nowhere for them to practice their drives, the practice ground is cramped and you have to pick up your own balls (which is dodgy at the best of times if someone else is there!), but as I say, it's OK for me (and I rarely practice anyway)


----------



## el marko (Oct 6, 2013)

Take it as a compliment. If you honestly have a lot of people watching then you must be a very good teacher.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

Maybe they think I'm an idiot for being there for free and want me to get a real life/job so I can have some of that 'money' stuff that everyone else seems to have  Whatever the reason being banned isn't really feeing complimentary right now, but thanks for your sentiment, appreciated el marko:thup:


----------



## virtuocity (Oct 6, 2013)

I would imagine that Pros are very protective over their own patch and even the tiniest sniff of someone doing the same job as them, on their range whether paid or unpaid is going to make them feel uneasy.  

I don't reckon it's a case of them not believing that you're not a PGA pro (your dress sense would indicate otherwise) or not charging and that the people you teach are more friends than 'clients'.  I just reckon that the pro wants to be the only person in that postcode doing the teaching and whilst he could let go the 'one off' sessions, he'll be feeling a little vulnerable and UNCOMPETITIVE by you rocking up once a week for hours on end.

Of course, this is completely ridiculous and if you were out there for 5 hours a week with your son or wife there would be absolutely no questioning of your intentions, you would still gain the attention of those practising (we had an AUDIENCE at one point) and the range would be happy to sell a load of balls and lucozade.  

Don't know what to suggest mate- time to buy a 300 yard field I think!


----------



## chrisd (Oct 6, 2013)

The same thing happened at our local range a while back. The guy was teaching his mate but was a pro teacher, English but working in USA. The problem was that he gave odd tips to locals if they asked and was eventually seen as a threat and banned. Pros are bound to protect their patch!


----------



## BTatHome (Oct 6, 2013)

As its private property he would need nothing more than not liking the  colour of your socks to ban you, just like Asda could do the same if they so desired.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2013)

Not surprised.
I think the least you could have done is ask permission from the Pro's before starting. That would be good manners.
You say you do not receive a fee but how are they to know that. They will see you as someone who is threatening their earnings.
Also what you are coaching may be completely at odds with the range ethos and you may earn them a bad reputation if customers view you as a resident coach.

I used to manage a large range where six PGA pros earned a living.
We had no problem with local PGA pros coaching as long as they asked permission.

We would have taken exactly the same action as the pros at the range you were using as we would have viewed you as someone who was using the range to make money/advantage.


----------



## CMAC (Oct 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It may be worth talking to someone about the law of competition and whether the range can lawfully interject with your coaching.  There are various UK and EU laws that regulate competition, maybe a word with CAB would help.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I think the devil may be in the detail.   They should have terms and conditions (They probably don't though) if they do then it should have an explanation on whether private coaching is prohibited.   If they do it does not mean this is legal though.

I would be inclined to ask them for a copy of their Terms and Conditions as you wish to refer their actions to the relevant authorities on the basis of restricted practice.
		
Click to expand...

All this is irrelevant with a private club, their rules-which they can change at will- plus the fact they could ban someone for any reason whatsoever.

Logic dictates though you should have just communicated to them your plans as I don't know anyone who spends all day a a course teaching amateurs unless they are employed there. If you owned the range I'm sure you might have reacted the same way.

I'd mentioned previously about a register, wouldn't that have been the way they would have known you weren't qualified.


----------



## DCB (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm surprised it's taken this long to come to this. All the good ranges I've used have had signage on the range and some even displayed it at the reception stating teaching is forbidden. I know of one school group who took their own coaches to a certain range and ended up getting banned as a result. I think what Doon says above would be the approach most ranges would adopt.


----------



## NorfolkShaun (Oct 6, 2013)

Don't know what to suggest mate- time to buy a 500 yard field I think!
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you :thup:


----------



## Karl102 (Oct 6, 2013)

A mate of mine works in a special needs / behaviour school. As a treat he took 5 kids to a local range. He bought them all a bucket of 55 balls and hired some old clubs. As they are hitting them he is telling them about grip and a few beginner tips (he plays off about 9). The range was empty and they went right down to the bottom, so that they would not disturb anyone. Low and behold the pro came down and basically kicked them off 'his range' as him and his team are the only ones allowed to teach there. He said fine, they can just hit the balls, but the pro said it was too late and asked them to leave. My mate kept his trap shut, but the 5 kids called him every expletive under the sun, loudly and too his face.... The pro and his team no longer run the range....


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 6, 2013)

Karl102 said:



			A mate of mine works in a special needs / behaviour school. As a treat he took 5 kids to a local range. He bought them all a bucket of 55 balls and hired some old clubs. As they are hitting them he is telling them about grip and a few beginner tips (he plays off about 9). The range was empty and they went right down to the bottom, so that they would not disturb anyone. Low and behold the pro came down and basically kicked them off 'his range' as him and his team are the only ones allowed to teach there. He said fine, they can just hit the balls, but the pro said it was too late and asked them to leave. My mate kept his trap shut, but the 5 kids called him every expletive under the sun, loudly and too his face.... The pro and his team no longer run the range....
		
Click to expand...

Where was this Karl? Was it the range at NW National? If it was, then the new owners are a great team and the resident Pro does absolutely loads of local charity work. I'm sure he wouldn't have any issues if it was explained to him now..:thup:


----------



## Ethan (Oct 6, 2013)

I am really not surprised that the range took exception. They must have thought that nobody in their right mind would spend all day teaching someone for nothing. Of course, we know that JO is not in his right mind, but the range maybe didn't.

Although their best clue is that he taught all day. No professional does that, as people have a limited amount of ability to absorb stuff and that ability fades with time as they get tired.


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 6, 2013)

Sadly being a pro is quite hard financially, so being protective of his business is kind of predictable. Perhaps you have a business model. You buy a field, you do bed and breakfast, you teach and you pupils buy a night, pay for balls etc... And you mix it with normal range activities. I would love to own my own range and was looking at buying some land, perhaps you may find like minded people on here ...


----------



## CMAC (Oct 6, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			Sadly being a pro is quite hard financially, so being protective of his business is kind of predictable. Perhaps you have a business model. You buy a field, you do bed and breakfast, you teach and you pupils buy a night, pay for balls etc... And you mix it with normal range activities. I would love to own my own range and was looking at buying some land, perhaps you may find like minded people on here ...
		
Click to expand...

I've had ideas for years on how to have a range that is really interesting and people want to go. There was a thread on this awhile back, have a search.


----------



## Karl102 (Oct 6, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Where was this Karl? Was it the range at NW National? If it was, then the new owners are a great team and the resident Pro does absolutely loads of local charity work. I'm sure he wouldn't have any issues if it was explained to him now..:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Yeah it was.  It was when it first opened (within the first few months) and it was the Glen Turner golf school.  The new owners are top and the pro's are as well.  They deserve a lot of credit as to where the club has gone in the last couple of years.


----------



## Midnight (Oct 6, 2013)

Morning all, I was amazed at the attitude yesterday , James had been in during the week and informed them that he had someone else meeting him on the Sat and he would be showing them a few things. If there had been a issue with this , then surely it should of been mentioned to him when he went in and confirmed it with them.

I was very hacked off about it as they could not seem to get it into their heads that , someone would give up their time for nothing. It was almost as if they were calling him  a liar for wanting to do something/help someone for nothing.

I still can not understand that if a mate who is good at golf wants to help you out with tips and give you the information to improve you game (whether you take the info or not ) is not allowed to do it??

Anyway , I had a cracking time , learnt loads, will it improve my game ? In my opinion without a doubt as long as I stick/practice what I have been shown. I will be having another session with James if we can find a range ???


----------



## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2013)

James, next time just show the guy all your posts from the forum.... he will instantly know you are not a pro by some of your ravings

on 2nd thoughts maybe not, he may ring the local mental hosp to see if you had escaped:ears:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2013)

For the posters who think that owning a range is a good money making opportunity I would advise them to 'do the maths' and think very carefully.
When my range was 20 bays a very successful businessman said to me my range must be making fortune.
I asked him to explain to me why he thought that.
Half way through his thinking he stopped and said. Yes, I see what you mean.

As part of a larger golfing/sport/retail structure a range can be very valuable but a stand alone range will struggle unless it was on a very good urban site. They tend to be expensive to buy/lease.


----------



## GOLFBALL_WHACKER_GUY (Oct 6, 2013)

i think we should all ring up and ask to book all day sessions with 'the new guy'


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 6, 2013)

I think you've got some front to be complaining about being asked to leave tbh.

You've given 3 "lessons" at that range, how much have you paid for hiring a bay for those?


----------



## garyinderry (Oct 6, 2013)

make sure you don't ever take this out on the course.  the pro will come running down the fairway shouting, "I charge Â£150 for this service" ! 



jamsie - when are you doing your tour of the north west?


----------



## virtuocity (Oct 6, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			I think you've got some front to be complaining about being asked to leave tbh.

You've given 3 "lessons" at that range, how much have you paid for hiring a bay for those?
		
Click to expand...

Would you say the same if the pupil was a 10 year old son or a wife of the teacher?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			You've given 3 "lessons" at that range, how much have you paid for hiring a bay for those?
		
Click to expand...

The guys pay Â£6.50 for 100 balls, so we've probably invested about Â£650 in the club so far 

We've also had food, drinks, a couple of bits from the pro shop and several green fees.... and maybe inspired some of the guys on the range to go have a lesson with one of the pros.


----------



## Robobum (Oct 6, 2013)

JustOne said:



			.... and maybe inspired some of the guys on the range to go have a lesson with one of the pros.
		
Click to expand...

Inspirational!! Brilliant.......


----------



## Pin-seeker (Oct 6, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			I think you've got some front to be complaining about being asked to leave tbh.

You've given 3 "lessons" at that range, how much have you paid for hiring a bay for those?
		
Click to expand...

Do you hire the bay when you go to the range? Or do you just pay for the balls like JO??


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2013)

On a related, but slightly Off Topic subject - I'm to lazy to start another thread...

How are Gibbo's and Virtuocity's swing looking now - after almost 1 month?

Too early to assess the stickability of Jimboo's and Midnight has only just started the process.

But definitely interested how many of the earlier pupils changes have stuck.

And have there been any better scores/handicap changes as a result? It's scores that really matter of course!


----------



## virtuocity (Oct 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			On a related, but slightly Off Topic subject - I'm to lazy to start another thread...

How are Gibbo's and Virtuocity's swing looking now - after almost 1 month?
		
Click to expand...

If the question was aimed at James:

a) why?  what's it to do with him?
b) James hasn't been up to Scotland yet and I haven't flown to Gatwick either, so he won't know what my swing is like

If the question was aimed at me:

If you click on my name, you'll have an option to PM me.  I'll be happy to discuss my swing with you. I've done loads of typing today (for boring reasons) and would be happy to give you a call if you're REALLY interested in the state of my swing?  Are you interested?  Or is it more to do with your ongoing crusade of 'beating' or discrediting your cigarette-smoking buddy?

Go on, it's good to talk.  But beware- I had a personal best round my home course yesterday and I haven't bragged to anyone yet so you may take the brunt of that!!


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I had a personal best round my home course yesterday
		
Click to expand...

Aimed at any/all - whoever picks the question up first. I would have expected James to be ongoingly interested. He did, after all, have quite a bit to do with it!

That was all the info I was after. Good to hear. Well done!

Yes, I'm interested in how well the changes have stuck - and believe it's something others would be interested in too. Quite a change from the (half) hour Pro lesson, involving 1 or 2 changes to imbed each time and comparing the stickability of a day's worth of changes is quite relevant to a comparison of the benefits of each.

The rest of your assaultive questioning about my motives is simply wrong.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			How are Gibbo's and Virtuocity's swing looking now - after almost 1 month?
		
Click to expand...

No idea.

Virtuocity has PM'd me saying that he's been hitting the ball better than his wildest dreams   but I can dream pretty big. I don't know what his swing ACTUALLY looks like or whether he's implementing (properly) any of the things we discussed. He could be swinging it round his ankles for all I know.

And it's the same with Gibbo, he sent me messages saying that he was blasting the ball, then wasn't, then was again. I don't know what he's working on, whether he's implementing any of it (properly), what his swing looks like, or what he's doing in fact.

@Virtuocity: 

Congrats on a PB mate :thup:.. don't recall receiving a text saying "Wooohhoooo!!" last night  

(lolololol)


----------



## Dodger (Oct 6, 2013)

Interesting to see you have body swerved replying to the posters who have posted they are not in the least but surprised.

For the record I am amazed that you are surprised at being told to clear off.

Actually......thinking about it I am not.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

I said in post #5 that I can see why it would be an issue for me to be there.

I was/am disappointed that the system is that you can't teach there if you're a qualified instructor (as they don't give permission for other pros to use their facilities), and you can't teach there if you're an amateur (even for free)... it doesn't leave many options does it?

If this is how golf is going to 'grow' then it's  strange way to do it IMO.
I was there with Midnight, he now feels better about his game, might well buy new clubs, play at new courses, teach his son to play the game, buy tees, buy gloves, talk about golf with his mates and get them into the game, and perhaps even see his own pro for lessons, he might bring another 4 or 5 people into the game in his lifetime, who knows!....... or he might have just quit.

And as to your snotty sentiment, I'm surprised that someone like yourself who apparently works within a golf club is so up on his own high horse..... 

Actually (using your own words)......thinking about it I am not.


----------



## Sledgehammer (Oct 6, 2013)

Fancy coming to East London to teach me?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

If you want.

You can PM me if you're serious.


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 6, 2013)

What's disappointing is that on Wednesdsay, we had a good (as in nice, friendly) 10 minute conversation with the Pro there, and all parties left in agreement that it was fine for James to continue what he was doing, as long as no money changed hands (agree how would he know?) and that he wasn't approaching other members.  James even mentioned he'd be there again at the weekend (all day) with someone else, and the pro accepted this with no issue.

What I also find disappointing is that it seems the only way to become PGA qualified to teach golf is to run a shop for 3 years, selling mars bars, re-gripping clubs etc (and paying 12k for the privilege).  You can't (according to the Farleigh pro) just do it by learning to be an instructor - you have to do the whole "club pro" package.

Foxholer... in regards to my swing and how it's coming on... I'll post some more vids soon


----------



## chrisd (Oct 6, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			.. I'll post some more vids soon 

Click to expand...


Aaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh......... No!


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Aaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh......... No!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry chris, I know it makes you feel inferior


----------



## Pin-seeker (Oct 6, 2013)

Can't believe a bloke can get so much grief for helping people out


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 6, 2013)

I can see the pro wanting to "protect their turf" and keep their tuition business to themselves but you've made it abundantly clear you aren't there for profit or to poach their business so I can't see what more you can do. The only way forward I can see is to call this guy on the phone and have a frank and honest discussion about your motives and intentions and see where it takes you. My biggest concern may be that word of mouth spreads and so using other facilities may begin to prove equally difficult


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 6, 2013)

To be honest the PGA has got a bit elitist, the options to become qualified are frankly ridiculous, there are people out there who would be great, but the 2 available routes in are not suitable. Looking at the 3 year course at university, may prepare people well, but there are only 29 places and 130 people applied, then you have the sit in a shop for a minimum of 30hrs a week for 3 years... Will you get the best people? But then I generally think education is poor, and the time devoted to it is wasted in that GCSE's should be one in 6 months and A'levels in a year, other qualifications I really don't care about. Regarding degrees well they are not all equal but this is lost ... But never mind all that. 
Just sort your self out with your own range or cyber office and stuff all this cobbler!


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 6, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			To be honest the PGA has got a bit elitist, the options to become qualified are frankly ridiculous, there are people out there who would be great, but the 2 available routes in are not suitable. Looking at the 3 year course at university, may prepare people well, but there are only 29 places and 130 people applied, then you have the sit in a shop for a minimum of 30hrs a week for 3 years... Will you get the best people? But then I generally think education is poor, and the time devoted to it is wasted in that GCSE's should be one in 6 months and A'levels in a year, other qualifications I really don't care about. Regarding degrees well they are not all equal but this is lost ... But never mind all that. 
Just sort your self out with your own range or cyber office and stuff all this cobbler!
		
Click to expand...


The other problem, it seems, is that if/when you *DO* get PGA qualified.... where you gonna teach?  Unless you are the pro at an existing club, it looks like it's very hard to find anywhere that will let you coach, so you'd have to set up your own range or trackman-studio etc, or just do online lessons (e.g. swingfix).


----------



## MGL (Oct 6, 2013)

The best way to think of the PGA is as a union - and therefore that gives you an idea as to their general attitudes. 

There are plenty of PGA pro's who have no fixed base of their own and pay a 'facility' fee to where they might have an arrangement to teach. They are simply protecting their turf as you well know and no amount of reasoning in the situations you describe would make much difference to 'union' guys!

You obviously have a passion for what you are doing but there is no doubt that the PGA guys will simply not believe you when you say your not charging. See comment number one above - they belong to a union!

There are one or two times when I've gone to hand clubs over to people at a different range and I've just rang up in advance to speak to the pro or the manager to explain that I'm not 'working' as such, just handing over and checking a couple of details. They were fine although I suppose it helped that I am in the 'trade' so to speak even though not PGA.

I also remember a time I went to Close House just outside Newcastle with two friends. We were messing about with different driver heads and different shafts (definitely not working - just messing about) and I rang to tell them what we wanted to do. The biggest problem was that they have a 'no bags' rule on the range so I had to carry everything in by hand which was a PITA.

If people like what your doing and are happy to drive two hours to see you then stick at it - just have an understanding of the obvious 'politics' involved and try and find somewhere friendly.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 6, 2013)

I am considering writing the the R&A to ask why people can't have lessons from whomever they want, and what gives a pro the right to stop that from happening... if you want to be taught by someone you trust then why shouldn't you be? and maybe something to do with people who simply can't afford lessons with a pro so opt for other avenues also not being 'allowed'. This is oddly sounding like childs play.... we're adults and should be taught by whomever we want to be taught by surely? no? are we naughty kids? 

What else should I put?


----------



## Slab (Oct 7, 2013)

Itâ€™s easy to see this from both sides but I think I fall on the side of the business in this case

On one hand weâ€™ve a venture thatâ€™s a very generous act of someone giving up their time to teach mates

On the other a venture that devalues the ranges own products with no recompense out with that paid by Joe Public 

So what makes me fall on the side of the range?

Sure you can try to describe it as one mate helping another or liking it to a father/son day out but clearly from the posts itâ€™s far more than that just in terms of duration not to mention quality etc (although not sure if OP has actually meet the students out with this venture so describing as mates might be stretching it, although doubtless firm friends afterwards)

I donâ€™t think the money paid for balls etc at the regular rates can be used as justification for not hiring the premises as a tuition centre and then being surprised when told it canâ€™t continue 

Maybe itâ€™s not always understood that when we go to a range and buy a bucket or two to hit, that thatâ€™s exactly all weâ€™ve bought & for multiple students to meet the same personal coach/teacher is perhaps an arrangement that would require additional arrangement/payment for rental of the premises (perhaps even out of sight of regular patrons) 

I canâ€™t just turn up at a dance studio or gym and pay for a day pass then start teaching rumba or kick-boxing to one or more students (even if itâ€™s for free) without expecting the business to have something to say about it! 

I canâ€™t pay for a couple of terms at night school then expect to stay on after class to teach pottery or basket weaving (even if itâ€™s for free)   

I canâ€™t see Tesco being too chuffed if I buy a pile of cold meat & rolls in-store then start giving away free ham roils in the foyer beside the cafe! (& before itâ€™s said, yes this is exactly whatâ€™s happening at the range. You buy the balls etc then give away a couple of hundred pounds worth of tuition) 

And it doesnâ€™t really matter to the principle whether these specific individuals would/wouldnâ€™t ever buy a lesson from that particular pro/range. Itâ€™s immaterial to the scenario 

So if I was the range owner/pro Iâ€™d at least want a visiting teacher to act as a professional even if they werenâ€™t 
(& I use the word professional to describe the financial aspects of the venture)



Disclaimer: For the record I can neither rumba or kick box, make pottery or weave a basket..., but I can make a decent ham roll


----------



## Sweep (Oct 7, 2013)

I can - just about - see both sides of the argument, but mostly I think this is really sad. I got into the game when my mate offered to take me to the range and show me what to do. I guess many of us had the same experience. How else do you try the game without shelling out cash? I have returned the favour for beginners, hoping they will catch the bug like I did.
Not long ago I played with a mate who struck the ball really well but, it transpired, had no idea how far he hit each club. So off we went to the range and spent a nice afternoon with him hitting balls and me measuring with my laser and writing it all down for him. 
Over the years I have had complete strangers offering advice on the range and also asking me for help.
So when does this go from being OK to breaking some rule?
I think it is really great, admirable in fact, that you are prepared to spend so much time helping your mates. Actually, this is all really for the love of the game. I, like many of us I guess, take great joy in talking about golf, working out how to hit the ball better etc etc. This forum is, in itself, a fine example of this. It is a real shame that commerce has got in the way of what is actually a couple of guys enjoying the game and a man trying to help his mates.


----------



## DCB (Oct 7, 2013)

Is this still rumbling on....... get over it


----------



## Slab (Oct 7, 2013)

DCB said:



			Is this still rumbling on....... get over it 

Click to expand...

Are you posting as a moderator that one of the most recently contributed to threads, started on Saturday night, that the OP contributed to late Sunday night, shouldn't be contributed to on a Monday morning!

Or a you just trying to get your post count up!


----------



## DCB (Oct 7, 2013)

Nope, not posting as a moderator, posting off my own back. Trouble is, it's threads like this that keep you coming back for more


----------



## Stuey01 (Oct 7, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I am considering writing the the R&A to ask why people can't have lessons from whomever they want, and what gives a pro the right to stop that from happening...
		
Click to expand...

LOL, is this a joke?


----------



## la_lucha (Oct 7, 2013)

Reading this whole thread I think that it's great that you are doing this JO and to be honest I might get in touch nearer to spring in readyness for the new season. However you are an absolute loon doing this for free. I'd certainly chuck you Â£50 for helping me out for that many hours.

The way that I see the whole right/wrong thing is like this. 

You have a BMW that you want to sell, so you drive it onto your local BMW dealership forecourt and put some numbers in the windscreen. 
        You become the best salesman BMW has ever seen for one day and exclusively to your own car. You just wouldn't do it. It's that outrageous that you wouldn't even comprehend doing it. 

  You are doing exactly the same thing at the range where they have a resident pro. You are giving the best lessons that the range has ever seen and taking business away from them. If they had a reputation as the best range around then why wouldn't people drive for two hours for their lessons? Why would they/should they let you carry on doing it?


----------



## sydney greenstreet (Oct 7, 2013)

See below :smirk:


----------



## sydney greenstreet (Oct 7, 2013)

Stuey01 said:



			LOL, is this a joke?
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts too.


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 7, 2013)

Stuey01 said:



			LOL, is this a joke?
		
Click to expand...

Why do you ask that ? if someone in your family or a friend or a work friend was thinking of taking up the game and asked you to help out is there any valid reason you cant ? 

We all agree,  even JO,  that taking customers or possible customers off the pro is a no no.. 

thats not even being questioned , so its not about taking or building a customer base at anyone else's expense   ..the people he is helping wouldnt even be at this range if it wasn't for him so actually it has enhanced business instead of deminishing it .. 

If i want to teach my kids how to play golf at the range or help a mate who is not a member anywhere,   maybe he cant afford lessons or maybe doesnt want to get pro lessons as golf may not be that important to him, why cant i ?

Maybe if i can teach him the basics he wil learn to love the game and then book lessons as a result .

I find some of the answers on here a bit strange , maybe because its JO i dont know ..   Now JO has never given me a lesson , ive never met the man , and only know him from on here , we dont often agree on stuff and il admit his knowledge of the game is far superior than mine,  but i have to commend him on his willingness to help others and for free to boot .. 

When did helping or even TRYING to help others for free become a bad thing?

As for my advice , id check out another range , have a chat with the pro , even refer him to here , tell him/her exactly what was going on and take it from there


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 7, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			You are doing exactly the same thing at the range where they have a resident pro. You are giving the best lessons that the range has ever seen and taking business away from them. If they had a reputation as the best range around then why wouldn't people drive for two hours for their lessons? Why would they/should they let you carry on doing it?
		
Click to expand...

How is he taking business away from them? he is  bringing a friend who never uses that range or that pro to the range , purchasing balls and food and doing their own thing away down the range ? surely money gained rather than lost ?

Just curious of your opinion if this was his brother from America that was home for the week he was teaching , and he spent all week down the range together , would there then be a problem ? as i say just curious 

By the way & for the record i can see why the pro is peeved off , i just dont see how he has broken any rules helping friends thats all


----------



## el marko (Oct 7, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I am considering writing the the R&A to ask why people can't have lessons from whomever they want, and what gives a pro the right to stop that from happening... if you want to be taught by someone you trust then why shouldn't you be? and maybe something to do with people who simply can't afford lessons with a pro so opt for other avenues also not being 'allowed'. This is oddly sounding like childs play.... we're adults and should be taught by whomever we want to be taught by surely? no? are we naughty kids? 

What else should I put?
		
Click to expand...

Sadly that isnt the point. The point is you are using their land to practice a service which they offer. Its the same deal with teaching people to ski at the snow dome, you're not allowed to teach your friends as this is there primary way of making money.


----------



## Stuey01 (Oct 7, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Why do you ask that ? if someone in your family or a friend or a work friend was thinking of taking up the game and asked you to help out is there any valid reason you can't
		
Click to expand...

I ask that because what the hell has it got to do with the R&A?!?!


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 7, 2013)

Stuey01 said:



			I ask that because what the hell has it got to do with the R&A?!?!
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough mate and my apologies if i took your reply up incorrectly , & maybe the R&A is not the correct route & they probably wouldnt get involved anyhow .. but it would be nice to find out off some "powers that be" who ever that may be as to what is wrong with helping others so long as its not incroaching of the resident pro or harming his business .. 

I just read frustration in JO comments ,


----------



## Airlie_Andy (Oct 7, 2013)

I can understand why the pro didn't believe you were doing this for free because it is an unbelievably generous use of your free time and I applaud you for it. 

Onto the driving range itself. Ultimately what is its main area of business? Is it a golf school that you can use as a driving range or is it a driving range where you can also get lessons? If it's the former than perhaps you should have to "hire" the bay in order to use it to teach even if you are not charging.  If it's the latter than your simply using the facilities for what they are intended for ie paying for balls to hit and work on your game. The fact you are there giving pointers should not make any difference as the purpose of the business is to provide facilities to hit golf balls. 

Just my take on it.


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 7, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Would you say the same if the pupil was a 10 year old son or a wife of the teacher?
		
Click to expand...


Yes, though in all probability i doubt a 10 year old kid would listen to his dad for the5+ hours JO spends there.

"Coaching" on somebody else's property that's cost a good wedge to get up and running whether you charge or not is taking the proverbial imo.


----------



## Stuey01 (Oct 7, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Fair enough mate and my apologies if i took your reply up incorrectly , & maybe the R&A is not the correct route & they probably wouldnt get involved anyhow .. but it would be nice to find out off some "powers that be" who ever that may be as to what is wrong with helping others so long as its not incroaching of the resident pro or harming his business .. 

I just read frustration in JO comments ,
		
Click to expand...

No worries mate.
Just One is a generous dude for sure, I understand the frustration.
But I see the Pro/range owners side of it too and am not surprised they are not supportive of this scenario.

Giving a family member or mate a bit of help with starting out and a few tips here and there is a world away from from a full day of dedicated coaching to an established golfer, which is what this is.


----------



## RobertB (Oct 7, 2013)

The business model of the range relies on income from three streams; hitting balls, buying stuff and accessing the teaching. They seem to have decided to prioritise one above the others. 

I never buy drinks, sweets etc when I go to range - I take my own bottle of fizzy water. Should I be banned? Cost/benefit to range maybe a Â£1 lost in income on food /visit versus me not coming and buying Â£16 range ticket once a week. Commercial sense?

The range should have clear T&C. The one I go to has several jobbing Pro's who appear to 'lease' a bay with students buying buckets of balls. That seems sensible. Maximises income all round. 

But there should not be a monopoly on who can "teach'. The game should be about accessibility ... getting people started and hooked is key. New starts are maybe more comfortable with a friend showing initial ropes as compared to going to the "Pro".


----------



## Slab (Oct 7, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			How is he taking business away from them? he is  bringing a friend who never uses that range or that pro to the range , purchasing balls and food and doing their own thing away down the range ? surely money gained rather than lost ?

Just curious of your opinion if this was his brother from America that was home for the week he was teaching , and he spent all week down the range together , would there then be a problem ? as i say just curious 

By the way & for the record i can see why the pro is peeved off , i just dont see how he has broken any rules helping friends thats all
		
Click to expand...

Bladeplayer you canâ€™t in all honesty compare 'helping a mate' what JO is generously doing

He is running half day/full day extended lessons in meticulous detail with video/stills & training aids for multiple different students and paying nothing for the range facilities he intends to use as a training/teaching venue, with no credit given to the range & in full view of the other range users

Buying a bucket of balls or multiples thereof does not entitle anyone to set up temporary free business at someone elseâ€™s range & use it as a training venue to teach golf to a series of â€˜matesâ€™ regardless of how far from home it is

JO may value his services as free of charge but that doesnâ€™t make them worthless and he really shouldnâ€™t expect others to value their services/facilities for free just because he does

How would any of us react if one day a week someone did our jobs for nothing just because they loved doing it?


----------



## Vice (Oct 7, 2013)

Whilst I support JustOne and commend what he is doing, one thing that stood out in this thread is ...



JustOne said:



			When we're there EVERYONE watches.
		
Click to expand...




virtuocity said:



			you would still gain the attention of those practising (we had an AUDIENCE at one point)
		
Click to expand...

I've never seen casual "mates" at the range draw a crowd before, but maybe I just practise at the wrong range?

This is possibly where a line was crossed. What might have happened is someone went inside and asked to book lessons with the new guy, which would explain their reaction.


----------



## garyinderry (Oct 7, 2013)

find a range that is not connected to a pro.


----------



## john0 (Oct 7, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			find a range that is not connected to a pro.
		
Click to expand...

And maybe one that is looking for a pro


----------



## la_lucha (Oct 7, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			How is he taking business away from them? he is  bringing a friend who never uses that range or that pro to the range , purchasing balls and food and doing their own thing away down the range ? surely money gained rather than lost ?

Just curious of your opinion if this was his brother from America that was home for the week he was teaching , and he spent all week down the range together , would there then be a problem ? as i say just curious 

By the way & for the record i can see why the pro is peeved off , i just dont see how he has broken any rules helping friends thats all
		
Click to expand...

If you were selling your son your old BMW would you do it at the BMW forecourt or at home?


----------



## Airlie_Andy (Oct 7, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			If you were selling your son your old BMW would you do it at the BMW forecourt or at home?
		
Click to expand...

That's not even remotely the same thing.


----------



## la_lucha (Oct 7, 2013)

Airlie_Andy said:



			That's not even remotely the same thing.
		
Click to expand...

It is. It's offering a service for a reduced rate on the business premises. JO seems to be offering this service on a national Golfing Forum, not just to his mates from down the Pub.

I'm talking business minded and not the practicalities of the whole thing.


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 7, 2013)

Slab said:



			How would any of us react if one day a week someone did our jobs for nothing just because they loved doing it?
		
Click to expand...

That would be great - I'd be off for a round of golf!


----------



## CMAC (Oct 7, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I am considering writing the the R&A to ask *why people can't have lessons from whomever they want,* and *what gives a pro the right to stop that from happening.*.. if you want to be taught by someone you trust then why shouldn't you be? and maybe something to do with people who simply can't afford lessons with a pro so opt for other avenues also not being 'allowed'. This is oddly sounding like childs play.... we're adults and should be taught by whomever we want to be taught by surely? no? are we naughty kids? 

What else should I put?
		
Click to expand...


..they can

....they can't :smirk:


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 7, 2013)

John Jacobs will be along in a minute to ban you from the forum......


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 7, 2013)

Slab said:






			Bladeplayer you canâ€™t in all honesty compare 'helping a mate' what JO is generously doing
		
Click to expand...

As he doesnt charge anything for it i do regard it as helping , yes 




			He is running half day/full day extended lessons in meticulous detail with video/stills & training aids for multiple different students and paying nothing for the range facilities he intends to use as a training/teaching venue, with no credit given to the range & in full view of the other range users
		
Click to expand...

I didnt realise it was as in depth & yes  i can see how this would attract attention  , & upset the pro




			Buying a bucket of balls or multiples thereof does not entitle anyone to set up temporary free business at someone elseâ€™s range & use it as a training venue to teach golf to a series of â€˜matesâ€™ regardless of how far from home it is
		
Click to expand...

I see it as extra business because they otherwise would not use this range therefore not contribute anything at all .. some money in has to be better than no money at all 




			JO may value his services as free of charge but that doesnâ€™t make them worthless and he really shouldnâ€™t expect others to value their services/facilities for free just because he does
		
Click to expand...

he is paying to use the balls etc as is everyone else that uses the range , the facility is there , if people dont use it it will suffer 




			How would any of us react if one day a week someone did our jobs for nothing just because they loved doing it?
		
Click to expand...

Very valid point ..
		
Click to expand...


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 7, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			If you were selling your son your old BMW would you do it at the BMW forecourt or at home?
		
Click to expand...




Airlie_Andy said:



			That's not even remotely the same thing.
		
Click to expand...




la_lucha said:



			It is. It's offering a service for a reduced rate on the business premises. JO seems to be offering this service on a national Golfing Forum, not just to his mates from down the Pub.

I'm talking business minded and not the practicalities of the whole thing.
		
Click to expand...

Its not realy the same but i do see the point you are trying to make  , but the point   remains for me is that he is not taking any business from the resident pro , he is bringing non users to the range to help them .. increasing the range business if not the lesson business .. i dont know but id bet the percentage of range users that actualy book lessons off the pro is very low if my own place is anything to go by ..


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2013)

Does this not boil down to the fact that if you were getting a new boiler fitted would you use a Corgi registered heating engineer.

OR

Some nice unqualified bloke you met down the pub last week who said he would do it for free as a favour.


----------



## bigslice (Oct 7, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does this not boil down to the fact that if you were getting a new boiler fitted would you use a *Gas Safe Registered* heating engineer.

OR

Some nice unqualified bloke you met down the pub last week who said he would do it for free as a favour.
		
Click to expand...

fixed:thup:


----------



## john0 (Oct 7, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does this not boil down to the fact that if you were getting a new boiler fitted would you use a Corgi registered heating engineer.

OR

Some nice unqualified bloke you met down the pub last week who said he would do it for free as a favour.
		
Click to expand...

Bollox!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2013)

bigslice said:



			fixed:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Showing my age .....again!


----------



## woody69 (Oct 7, 2013)

The answer is really quite simple.

Find a new range, but before you take anyone else there speak to the manager/pro and explain what you are doing and ask if they have a problem with it.


----------



## Airlie_Andy (Oct 7, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			It is. It's offering a service for a reduced rate on the business premises. JO seems to be offering this service on a national Golfing Forum, not just to his mates from down the Pub.

I'm talking business minded and not the practicalities of the whole thing.
		
Click to expand...

It's really not.

First of all JO isn't selling anything so using the analogy of selling a car is not the same.

Second of all the car dealership is only there to sell cars not to provide somewhere for people to go and practice selling cars and perhaps take lessons on how to sell cars. 

For me the distinction is based on what the driving range sells itself as. If it sells itself as a golf "school" that also allows you to use the facilities for a fee then they have a legitimate reason to expect anyone giving "tuition" there to have to pay for the use of the facilities regardless of whether or not they are charging there students. If, however, it sells itself as a driving range then the primary aim of that business is to provide facilities for customers to practice hitting golf balls and if you choose to bring along your own coach that shouldn't be a problem IMO as you are still using the facilities as intended. 

A more suitable analogy would be going to the local swimming pool paying to use the facilities and getting a friend to teach you how to swim. Should you be kicked out for not paying the swimming pool extra to provide the lessons instead?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2013)

A different way of looking at it.

A relative of mine was a well respected PGA golf coach. He did a lot of work with the SGU on their top young players. Four or five went on to Walker/Curtis /Ryder Cup standard and he helped many become British and Scottish champions.

He was badgered to produce a golf instruction book by publishers but always refused as, in his words, 'all I know about golf would only fill two pages'
Top players were traveling miles for lessons. These lessons averaged about 45 minutes and sometimes, if things were good, 30 minutes.

I know it is a different era but here was a guy imparting his golfing knowledge on the countries top players in an easy to understand and implement manner.
God knows what he would have said about an amateur coach boasting about 9 hour and 12 hour sessions with pupils.


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 7, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A different way of looking at it.

A relative of mine was a well respected PGA golf coach. He did a lot of work with the SGU on their top young players. Four or five went on to Walker/Curtis /Ryder Cup standard and he helped many become British and Scottish champions.

He was badgered to produce a golf instruction book by publishers but always refused as, in his words, 'all I know about golf would only fill two pages'
Top players were traveling miles for lessons. These lessons averaged about 45 minutes and sometimes, if things were good, 30 minutes.

I know it is a different era but here was a guy imparting his golfing knowledge on the countries top players in an easy to understand and implement manner.
God knows what he would have said about an amateur coach boasting about 9 hour and 12 hour sessions with pupils.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guessing there are plenty of PGA qualified coaches that also offer "day schools" for their students.


----------



## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Airlie_Andy said:



			It's really not.

First of all JO isn't selling anything so using the analogy of selling a car is not the same.

Second of all the car dealership is only there to sell cars not to provide somewhere for people to go and practice selling cars and perhaps take lessons on how to sell cars. 

For me the distinction is based on what the driving range sells itself as. If it sells itself as a golf "school" that also allows you to use the facilities for a fee then they have a legitimate reason to expect anyone giving "tuition" there to have to pay for the use of the facilities regardless of whether or not they are charging there students. If, however, it sells itself as a driving range then the primary aim of that business is to provide facilities for customers to practice hitting golf balls and if you choose to bring along your own coach that shouldn't be a problem IMO as you are still using the facilities as intended. 

A more suitable analogy would be going to the local swimming pool paying to use the facilities and getting a friend to teach you how to swim. Should you be kicked out for not paying the swimming pool extra to provide the lessons instead?
		
Click to expand...

Only if you took up a lane while doing it or gave lessons while they were running lessons?


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 7, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			I'm guessing there are plenty of PGA qualified coaches that also offer "day schools" for their students.
		
Click to expand...

Our Pro offers an " ultimate day package" for Â£150 which includes a morning lesson,  lunch and 18 holes  but that's a bit different to a day of  complete swing rebuild/changes hitting 100's of balls on a range.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			Our Pro offers an " ultimate day package" for Â£150 which includes a morning lesson,  lunch and 18 holes  but that's a bit different to a day of  complete swing rebuild/changes hitting 100's of balls on a range.
		
Click to expand...

Let us hope it is not at the 6 hour round course as he would then be charging lower than the minimum wage.

Serious head on.............Yes that is a world of difference.


----------



## Airlie_Andy (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Only if you took up a lane while doing it or gave lessons while they were running lessons?
		
Click to expand...

Taking up a lane doesn't matter as you've paid for the use of that lane. 

So for instance a dad teaching his son to swim should be kicked out if a lesson is going on elsewhere in the pool? I appreciate its not the same situation but you are paying to use the pool so how you use it is upto you. Unless you pee in it of course.


----------



## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Taking up a lane doesn't matter as you've paid for the use of that lane. 

So for instance a dad teaching his son to swim should be kicked out if a lesson is going on elsewhere in the pool? I appreciate its not the same situation but you are paying to use the pool so how you use it is upto you. Unless you pee in it of course.
		
Click to expand...

i would not say you have paid for exclusive use of the lane just just the use the same as everyone else, i dont ecpect the other people using the range stayed there for 9 hours!!!

and its not father and son, or mother and daughter, its two guys who don't know each other apart from on golf forum

at the end of the day, its there range, their:ears: rules


----------



## Airlie_Andy (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			i would not say you have paid for exclusive use of the lane just just the use the same as everyone else, i dont ecpect the other people using the range stayed there for 9 hours!!!

and its not father and son, or mother and daughter, its two guys who don't know each other apart from on golf forum

at the end of the day, its there range, their:ears: rules
		
Click to expand...

It was you who brought lanes into it, I assume to compare it to using a bay somehow.  I should have just said it was stupid instead of trying to continue using the lane comparison. The length of time spent using the range also immaterial as long as they were hitting balls and nobody was having to wait for the bay. 

I also said the father son thing wasn't the same situation but the underlying principle remains the same.  

We can at least agree that its there range so there rules but since when should that stop a debate about whether you agree with or not?


----------



## Evesdad (Oct 7, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			Our Pro offers an " ultimate day package" for Â£150 which includes a morning lesson,  lunch and 18 holes  but that's a bit different to a day of  complete swing rebuild/changes hitting 100's of balls on a range.
		
Click to expand...

One of our pros does something like this too. Similar sort of price I think.

They have obviously taken offence so time to make a decision. A) phone them or go in person and talk it through and see what happens. B) find a different range and approach them and be upfront about what you are doing and find one that doesn't mind.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			at the end of the day, its there range, their:ears: rules
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest that when you use the Range you are purchasing balls to hit in a bay.  Your act of purchasing balls and them supplying them and the bay forms a contract between you both.   The range may have rules on how their facilities are used and under normal business operations these are set out in their 'terms and conditions' which should be available to read.  There may also be notices outlining certain 'rules' like: 'No Coaching'  'Only hit balls off the matts provided' 'No mobile phones to be used on the range' etc.

In my opinion if the Range wants to prohibit anyone else from coaching they should make it clear so that anyone like James who is helping a mate FOC can understand it's not allowed.  They (as customers) should not have to suffer the Pro treating them rudely in what sounds an unprofessional manner.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 7, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does this not boil down to the fact that if you were getting a new boiler fitted would you use a Corgi registered heating engineer.

OR

Some nice unqualified bloke you met down the pub last week who said he would do it for free as a favour.
		
Click to expand...

Er.. No!

Only a Gase Safe (previously Corgi) registered/qualified engineeer can carry a Boiler/Gas work. There's no requirement to be qualified in any way to give Golf Lessons - especially if free!


----------



## stevek1969 (Oct 7, 2013)

I can't believe there is over 100 posts on this subject jesus ,give it a rest and move on


----------



## chris661 (Oct 7, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			I can't believe there is over 100 posts on this subject jesus ,give it a rest and move on 

Click to expand...

Irony?


----------



## stevek1969 (Oct 7, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Irony?
		
Click to expand...

you've lost me there must be missing something


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 7, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			I can't believe there is over 100 posts on this subject jesus ,give it a rest and move on 

Click to expand...

Helpful comment!

If this thread doesn't interest you - you don't have to read it!


----------



## stevek1969 (Oct 7, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Helpful comment!

If this thread doesn't interest you - you don't have to read it!
		
Click to expand...

I did read it and its just going round in a circle from page 4 onwards


----------



## chris661 (Oct 7, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			you've lost me there must be missing something
		
Click to expand...

You complain about the number of posts as you are posting in the thread


----------



## la_lucha (Oct 7, 2013)

Holy cow! A forum being used for discussion.  Someone call the police.


----------



## Dodger (Oct 7, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			I can't believe there is over 100 posts on this subject jesus ,give it a rest and move on 

Click to expand...

But let's face it me me me has got what he is always looking for Steve.


----------



## chrisd (Oct 7, 2013)

Dodger said:



			But let's face it me me me has got what he is always looking for Steve.
		
Click to expand...

That's not called for Dodger, James is well liked by me and loads of the forum members. At the HFH today James wasn't short of friends!


----------



## Dodger (Oct 7, 2013)

chrisd said:



			That's not called for Dodger, James is well liked by me and loads of the forum members. At the HFH today James wasn't short of friends!
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say he was unliked......


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			I can't believe there is over 100 posts on this subject jesus ,give it a rest and move on 

Click to expand...

If you have a problem with people posting on a Forum  Then I suggest you move on yourself.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I didn't say he was unliked......
		
Click to expand...

No thats right.  You suggested he is only interested in himself.


----------



## sydney greenstreet (Oct 7, 2013)

Dodger said:



			But let's face it me me me has got what he is always looking for Steve.
		
Click to expand...

:thup::thup::thup::thup::thup::thup::thup::thup:


----------



## sydney greenstreet (Oct 7, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			If you have a problem with people posting on a Forum  Then I suggest you move on yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Telling people to leave a forum now are we ?


----------



## sydney greenstreet (Oct 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			No thats right.  You suggested he is only interested in himself.
		
Click to expand...

HE IS!


----------



## Sweep (Oct 8, 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me how this forum descends into "mud slinging" at the earliest opportunity and over nothing.
Its a forum. People use it to discuss topics, yet even that creates complaints when forum members discuss a topic too much! You don't have to contribute or even read a thread. If you don't like the OP, why torture yourself reading a thread he started?


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Oct 8, 2013)

Sweep said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how this forum descends into "mud slinging" at the earliest opportunity and over nothing.
Its a forum. People use it to discuss topics, yet even that creates complaints when forum members discuss a topic too much! You don't have to contribute or even read a thread. If you don't like the OP, why torture yourself reading a thread he started?
		
Click to expand...

Plus 1 to that , can we calm down please


----------



## chrisd (Oct 8, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I didn't say he was unliked......
		
Click to expand...

Granted ..... But the point is that we don't see James in a bad light! 

In fact I think he is anything other than me me me in that the does what he does for the love love the game and to help others and is willing to go far beyond the call of duty to do it. I, personally, am not at all surprised that a golf range would ban him in the circumstances but that's a commercial matter for the pro and I can see why it's happened but if you know James at all he is not me me me when it comes down to his passion for the game


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2013)

sydney greenstreet said:



			Telling people to leave a forum now are we ?
		
Click to expand...

No.  I am suggesting that if this ,or any thread does not interest you then you can always move on to another thread.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 8, 2013)

Heading back in the vague direction of where this thread started.......I would probably side with JO in terms of being able to help a mate but wondered if there are insurance implications for the range. If I had a lesson with a pro at a range and he did/said something that directly led me to get injured or me to injuring someone else I would assume that he would have insurance to cover that. If JO did the same then would the range be liable as it happened while using their facilities?


----------



## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 8, 2013)

As I see it JO was doing more than just helping a mate.  In the OP he admits to giving  an old boy a 'tip' and this to me is the route cause of the problem and I think the range are not being unreasonable at all.


----------



## Svenska (Oct 8, 2013)

This kind of happened to me a while back at a range in London. I have tried to get the missus to take up the game as she's got good hand and eye co-ordination and also enjoys watching it on tv (I make her). Anyway I took her down the range several times and she picked up the basics so easily it was almost embarrassing as I was trying to play it down with her as she's so competitive and golf can be so frustrating that I worried if she hit it atrociously that she'd sack it off in a huff. 

I went to the range on my own a week or two later and the pro there had a word with me, told me he didn't appreciate me teaching on his patch. I laughed at him and told him he'd do well to hang about for a bit and watch me hit some balls as I evidently wasn't in anyway a pro.

I can kind of see some points of the argument but it really is scandalous if you can't help a mate out or a loved one at your local driving range. 

No wonder people are put off by golf and it's rules.

I suspect it won't be long before i'm asking for tips off my bird, I wonder if the said pro will be telling her to bugger off?


----------



## HickoryShaft (Oct 8, 2013)

I find this almost sureal.

I do sort of understand the range / Pro being a bit put out if they thought JO was another Pro on their patch but once it was established he was not I just cannot see why they reacted the way they did.

At the range I go to there are lots of people who go down in pairs and 'spot' each other. Some of the best players at my club can be found there on occasions checking each others swings etc. I have watched a couple of time as they stike the ball so well its something to behold.

Although in a very very different category I go there with a mate and if we are stuggling with a shot we talk each other through it and see if w can spot any obvious mistakes. Sure no one is going to mistake us for Pro's (we would be bankrupt) but we have videoed our swings on our phones to show us what we need to work on etc. In fact we are there tonight.

I have also had a few words with some of the good players from my club when down at the range (not attached to the club)  who have pointed me in the right direction on a few things 

This is useful time to develop a game and try out things.

Seperately I have had lessons and used the Pro (s) from both the range and my club - in between I have worked on the lesson on my own with lots of buckets of balls by myself or when with mates to try and 'groove a swing'

For me its completely normal to work on things on the range and while JO and the people he has been helping have spent several hours there which may be beyond what others would do it seems very very harsh for the range to take this approach to me.

I think that JustOne deserves a GM forum medal for helping out others out of the goodness of his heart and his love of the game.


----------



## timd77 (Oct 8, 2013)

It's a tricky one, but whilst I admire JO's commitment to the cause, if the driving range is also a teaching school then I can see why they wouldn't want someone else muscling in on their business. Granted, if it was a lad and dad or hubby and wife, or even a couple of mates spending an hour being shown how to grip the club, tips on stopping a slice or whatever the basic 'fix' was, then that's one thing, but being there for hours on end, analysing videos etc is a different kettle of fish in my opinion.

There is no real like for like comparison, but the closest comparison I can think of are those nail bars you get in shopping centres. They pay top dollar to hire their little trading space in a prime location. If someone was to rock up, set up a bar and start teaching women (or men, we're all equal) how to do their own nails for free, then I can imagine they'd be pretty narked, and rightly so, even if said teacher had earlier bought some nail varnish off them!

There are plenty of ranges that don't offer lessons so I'm sure you could go there without a problem.

Credit to JO though and I can see your frustrations.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 8, 2013)

I can see both sides of the argument. As a I think I've said, surely the easiest answer was for James and this guy (Steve?) to have a discussion on the phone and see how the land lies after this. If he or the range owners don't want James teaching anyone on the premises then I guess that is their prerogative. I usually find in life that some simple courtesies and open discussion usually finds some degree of middle ground


----------



## stevelev (Oct 8, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			Reading this whole thread I think that it's great that you are doing this JO and to be honest I might get in touch nearer to spring in readyness for the new season. However you are an absolute loon doing this for free. I'd certainly chuck you Â£50 for helping me out for that many hours.

The way that I see the whole right/wrong thing is like this. 

You have a BMW that you want to sell, so you drive it onto your local BMW dealership forecourt and put some numbers in the windscreen. 
        You become the best salesman BMW has ever seen for one day and exclusively to your own car. You just wouldn't do it. It's that outrageous that you wouldn't even comprehend doing it. 

  You are doing exactly the same thing at the range where they have a resident pro. You are giving the best lessons that the range has ever seen and taking business away from them. If they had a reputation as the best range around then why wouldn't people drive for two hours for their lessons? Why would they/should they let you carry on doing it?
		
Click to expand...

But how can it be the same, maybe if you wa giving the car away, to a friend, but he wasnt selling a service


----------



## JustOne (Oct 9, 2013)

HickoryShaft said:



			I think that JustOne deserves a GM forum medal for helping out others out of the goodness of his heart and his love of the game.
		
Click to expand...

I was trying to ignore that comment.... but you're so right!!! 



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



LOL, just kidding... :thup: (but thanks for the sentiment) :thup:


----------



## la_lucha (Oct 9, 2013)

stevelev said:



			But how can it be the same, maybe if you wa giving the car away, to a friend, but he wasnt selling a service
		
Click to expand...

What I'm getting at is that you would not sell/give away a BMW on their forecourt so why should you do the same with Golf Lessons at the range?


----------



## patricks148 (Oct 9, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I was trying to ignore that comment.... but you're so right!!! 



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



LOL, just kidding... :thup: (but thanks for the sentiment) :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Were you wearing that pink and brown stripped jumper?

That could have been the reason you were ask to leave?:ears:


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 9, 2013)

la_lucha said:



			What I'm getting at is that you would not sell/give away a BMW on their forecourt so why should you do the same with Golf Lessons at the range?
		
Click to expand...

Because you have no other reason to be on a forecourt other than to look at/buy a car. (Does this apply to non BMW forecourts as well?) Whereas on a driving range, you're not there just to look at lessons or buy lessons! You're there to hit the balls as well!!

Sounds to me like it comes down to him not believing you aren't being paid for it. Did you offer him 50% of what you're charging?


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 9, 2013)

I am not sure the car forecourt is a good analogy....


----------



## Jay1 (Oct 10, 2013)

Been reading this thread since the start and figured I'd at my thoughts.

First off I think it's very generous of JO to offer so much of his time, for what seems nothing else but a love of the game. Very admirable and I think some of the stick dished out in this thread is a little harsh.

As for the rights and wrongs of using the range, it's a tough one. All of the protecting the pro's business arguments have been covered, so I thought I'd add a slightly different slant. the way I see it, a driving range is a practice facility and when you buy a bucket of balls, you are effectively renting a bay to hit those balls and practice your game. So far as I know ranges do not generally have rules about how you go about that practice (aside from saftey issues, like not straying on to the range to retrieve balls). For this reason I feel that banning JO for helping someone get the most out of their practice time is wrong, unless it was a commercial venture, in which case the pro would have every reason to take issue. 

How far does it stretch if it is justified in a pro dictating how they allow people to practice on a driving range. Are you only allowed allignement aids bought from their shop. Should they ban the use of video equipment in case that person is then uploading it to a website for either unpaid, or paid tuition on their swing, as surely this would be no different to what JO is doing?

So long as a steady supply of balls are being purchased to cover the normal usage time for the bay, and that by staying for such lengthy periods does not interfere with availability of bays for other users, I cannot see a justifiable reason for what JO is doing being banned.

If money is changing hands for the help being given, I can certainly see why it would be an issue and for that reason can only assume that the pro did not believe that the help was being provided for free. Maybe a link to this thread should be emailed to him?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 10, 2013)

^
^
I should clarify, it's a GOLF CLUB, it has 27 holes and a membership base. It also has a driving range. The range is a dozen mats on the floor at the end of a field (range) with a few markers, it's NOT a stand-alone driving range.

We've paid green fees and gone and played, we've had food, drinks, and purchased a few bits and pieces from the pro shop. Usually we buy the balls at Â£6.50/100 and head off to the range..... sometimes we then pay a green fee and go and play 18 holes, but not always, depends on the person.


----------



## chrisd (Oct 10, 2013)

I am sure that if anyone here went to any range with a mate, video'd, etc and worked on their swing for hours, the pro wouldn't bat an eyelid. I know the pro at mine well and have done this with, and for, a golfing mate with no problem, many a time.

If, however, I turned up with different people regularly or even occasionally, and did the same for several hours, I am pretty sure that I would be asked not to do it. The decision of the owner/pro is theirs to make and I feel sure that they would feel that this is more than just mates working together and wouldn't want to allow it or possibly encourage others to ask their mates/pro to turn up and do likewise. 

I posted earlier that it did happen at my local range and the guy teaching was also banned, not from hitting, but certainly from teaching. its really down to the owners to decide as to whether they will allow it or not and I suspect most wouldn't.


----------



## Garesfield ACE (Oct 10, 2013)

JustOne said:



			The guys pay Â£6.50 for 100 balls, so we've probably invested about Â£650 in the club so far 

We've also had food, drinks, a couple of bits from the pro shop and several green fees.... and maybe inspired some of the guys on the range to go have a lesson with one of the pros.
		
Click to expand...

Superb reply JO....keep up the great work you are doing to help others,well admired by myself.


----------



## blackpuddinmonster (Oct 10, 2013)

Jay1 said:



			Maybe a link to this thread should be emailed to him?
		
Click to expand...

I'd actually be quite surprised if he didn't know he was being discussed, six degrees of seperation and all that.
It didn't take the trilby boys long to find out they were being discussed.
If he does know its a shame he hasn't come on to explain his descission.
As for JO i think what he does is great.
The bloke is obviously a nutter with far too much time on his hands. 
But you seam a likeable nutter so good luck to you mate. 
Don't let the nae sayers put you of. Its only a game. :thup:


----------



## Driven2Distraction (Oct 10, 2013)

Surely - if the range has rules, they are to be abided by whether we understand them or like them

Golf is full of rules that we neither like nor really understand but we don't pick & choose the ones we fancy and get too uppity about the ones we don't


----------



## JustOne (Oct 10, 2013)

Driven2Distraction said:



			Surely - if the range has rules, they are to be abided by whether we understand them or like them

Golf is full of rules that we neither like nor really understand but we don't pick & choose the ones we fancy and get too uppity about the ones we don't
		
Click to expand...


From the *FIRST* post....




			Steve Stiller seemed pretty reasonable and said OK, no problem, if you're not a pro and you're not charging then so be it. I then told him i had arranged to meet someone else this coming Saturday (today) and he said that was OK
		
Click to expand...

Now.....what rules are we talking about?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 10, 2013)

JustOne said:



			From the *FIRST* post....



Now.....what rules are we talking about?
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest have you had further discussions with him/range owner since the decision?


----------



## Driven2Distraction (Oct 10, 2013)

JustOne said:



			"You can't teach here any more" ......


So there you go.... *If I was a PGA qualified I'm not allowed to even be there* to use their facilities,...
and as an amateur they don't want me there teaching my 'friends, family, colleagues, or anyone else who knows me...

Can't be there as a pro, can't be there as an amateur - Snookered!!!!
		
Click to expand...

also from the first post... Your point?

As far as rules go - pick one. Plenty of posts here stating "If you don't like 'em, play a different game..."


----------



## JustOne (Oct 10, 2013)

Driven2Distraction said:



			also from the first post... Your point?
		
Click to expand...

The point being the 'rules' were whatever seemed to be coming out of his mouth at the various times when he spoke to me, that's all.

@Homer.... not yet mate. There might be something in the pipeline......


----------



## Slab (Oct 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			The point being the 'rules' were whatever seemed to be coming out of his mouth at the various times when he spoke to me, that's all
		
Click to expand...

Could that be because over the course of several days & as you were conversing he was made aware of more & more information that he didn't have to begin with!


----------



## chrisd (Oct 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			The point being the 'rules' were whatever seemed to be coming out of his mouth at the various times when he spoke to me, that's all.

@Homer.... not yet mate. There might be something in the pipeline......
		
Click to expand...


Most ranges won't have "rules" as such, to cover a situation. If the pro feels that his business is being threatened he will just makes up the "rules" on the hoof.

When I started my business one of the things I said with my co partner was that if someone upset us, at least we could tell them where to go. 21 years later I have told precisely one person never to come back, but even today it would be our decision whether we served someone or not.


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 11, 2013)

chrisd said:



			When I started my business one of the things I said with my co partner was that if someone upset us, at least we could tell them where to go. 21 years later I have told precisely one person never to come back, but even today it would be our decision whether we served someone or not.
		
Click to expand...

I think I am going to ban you from my place, too!


----------



## Driven2Distraction (Oct 11, 2013)

The proâ€™s (changing) attitude to you teaching there is indeed frustrating.  We all get annoyed when someone says â€œyesâ€ then â€œnoâ€ without an explanation that satisfies us â€“ granted.

However â€“ unless the Pro is the owner of the establishment then it wasnâ€™t really his decision to make in the first place.  All in all your dealings with this chap have been unsatisfactory and I understand your annoyance on that front.

BUT

There have been an awful lot of posts on this thread about your â€œrightâ€ to be teaching there... whether you were indeed teaching rather than giving advice to a friend...... and the reasons for banning you being related to income protection for the pro etc etc..

In my humble opinion â€“ all complete & utter twaddle.  There is a bigger picture here IMO and thatâ€™s â€œliabilityâ€.

Iâ€™ll preface the following by also stating that Iâ€™m no expert in these matters, but the range/club will more than likely carry 3rd party/Public Liability insurance for the activities of the establishment which will cover all the general stuff in the workplace along with the activities that involve the â€œpublicâ€ and also the actual golfing activities.  

Iâ€™m also pretty sure that the range will need to have policies & procedures in place to satisfy itâ€™s insurers with regard to:

a)	the environment in which lessons will be given (in my experience teaching bays are normally larger, and set aside from the main part of the range to allow for the extra space needed)

b)	the competency of those that it employs to teach golf (it may or may not be a PGA person, but surely some method of accreditation, even internally by the establishment, will need to be used.

c)	A signed agreement by those giving lessons that they agree to abide by the establishments rules & guidelines for the provisions of lessons.

What happens when one of your â€œstudentsâ€ hits a shonky hosel-rocket that caroms off the side wall and ricochets into the adjacent bay & hurts someone, or you step back out of the â€œnormalâ€ hitting zone on the mat while demonstrating something and catch someone on the noggin with a club?  Or YOU get hit by an errant club or ball either from your mate/student or someone else and your significant other decides to sue the range because the bay wasnâ€™t big enough for coaching and they should have stopped you.....

 Itâ€™s all too easy to say â€œIâ€™m too careful for thatâ€, or â€œthatâ€™ll never happenâ€ but the unfortunate thing is these improbable accidents DO happen and thatâ€™s why the range carry insurances â€“ if someone pursues a claim against the range as a result of your inadvertent actions the range will get absolutely hammered for letting an unauthorised person teach at their facility and their insurers will walk away.  The amount of money that you spend on balls, green fees etc and the cash that the range may or may not be losing out on in potential â€œlostâ€ teaching revenue is insignificant compared to these potential losses.

Make no mistake you ARE teaching irrespective of what you call it, and whether you are charging for it or not.  Thereâ€™s a huge difference between giving a mate/your wife the odd pointer on the range while you happen to be hitting balls together for an hour or two and someone travelling a significant distance to spend a considerable amount of time with you to specifically get these friendly pointers. 
If it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck I like my odds at Mr Hills that it actually IS a duck nomatter how many people tell me itâ€™s a pigeon

If you act like youâ€™re teaching someone and other people consider that you are indeed teaching, and something goes wrong, then I suspect that in the eyes of the people that matter (lawyers & insurers) then you are indeed teaching, and theyâ€™ll want you to prove that you are indeed a competent person to be doing so.

Iâ€™m in no way belittling your ability to improve peopleâ€™s swings and ultimately their enjoyment of the game, indeed your passion for golf and willingness to help others is to be commended mate, sincerely â€“ but thereâ€™s a little more to it than just being able to impart information in an understandable way, which you clearly have a talent for, and being a likeable chap â€“ hence the reason for PGA, and other, accredited coaching badges

Be careful out there mate


----------



## virtuocity (Oct 11, 2013)

Yep- that's definitely the reason for telling JO to beat it....... Public liability.

Lolza!


----------



## JustOne (Oct 11, 2013)

Nice post D2D and acknowledge the point you're making.... so I come to your golf club for a round and whilst hitting balls beside you on the range (no teaching) I accidentally clobber someone in the face with a club?.. or you are there with your son and you say to him "grip it this way" and then he shanks one into the next bay?

The bottom line is that I am (we are) an amateur golfer, a companion, a colleague, and I am there at the request of the person I am with, two people trying to hit a ball with a stick, it's not rocket science and having a qualification to 'teach', help, observe, comment or whatever else you can describe it as isn't going to stop someone from slipping over or the occasional shot off the hosel. I would assume that the father that is helping his son for an hour is as insured (or not at all) as every other person who enters the premises, or slices their tee shot off the 1st tee towards the clubhouse. Any person making a living from instruction (or any golf related job) is doing so as a business and therefore would require some kind of business/personal liability insurance, anyone as an amateur ISN'T (as they can't charge).


----------



## ger147 (Oct 11, 2013)

You are teaching at their range/golf club, albeit free of charge, but you are still teaching.

They are perfectly within their rights to stop you from doing so at their range/golf club if they so wish.


----------



## Driven2Distraction (Oct 11, 2013)

There's no straightforwad answers (hence 15+ pages of forum debate)

Don't get me wrong - it's tricky.  Insurance & liability are murky at the best of times and I'm at the front of the queue when it comesto taking personal responsibility - there's a certain amount of inherent risk in going to the range or playing golf at the course, which I believe that we all accept as soon as we cross the threshold, but people do sue, successfully - club golfers have been held, rightly or wrongly, responsible for the injuries others have sustained

When I was a nipper my own dad taught me to swing a club with no one else around before he let me anywhere near a course or a range, but then perhaps that was merely his embarrassment at his son's ineptitude 

I was just sayin' - there might be other reasons that ranges all over the country have signs up stating "no teaching" other than purely loss of teaching income


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 11, 2013)

Driven2Distraction said:



			The proâ€™s (changing) attitude to you teaching there is indeed frustrating.  We all get annoyed when someone says â€œyesâ€ then â€œnoâ€ without an explanation that satisfies us â€“ granted.

However â€“ unless the Pro is the owner of the establishment then it wasnâ€™t really his decision to make in the first place.  All in all your dealings with this chap have been unsatisfactory and I understand your annoyance on that front.

BUT

There have been an awful lot of posts on this thread about your â€œrightâ€ to be teaching there... whether you were indeed teaching rather than giving advice to a friend...... and the reasons for banning you being related to income protection for the pro etc etc..

In my humble opinion â€“ all complete & utter twaddle.  There is a bigger picture here IMO and thatâ€™s â€œliabilityâ€.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry for shortening your post mate and a good post it was but the "liability" situation as you call it would not have changed from the 1st time JO and the pro spoke (& it was ok to be there  once he was not charging to give advice)   to now when it is not ok to be there at all .. if it was a problem the pro should have just said so .. 

If JO was openly offering his service to others at the range  / or to regulars of the pro i could see the problem but these are non users of the range or the pro that he is bringing down, so instead of loosing possible revenue the range /club is actually gaining revenue .. 

I think the big thing learned here is to check with the owner/manager of a range beforehand in future and then there can be no doubt ..
I must admit to not having the first clue about some of the stuff JO posts ,im not good at the technical stuff .. but like others i commend his helpfulness to others , not too many people give of their time freely anymore ..


----------



## chrisd (Oct 11, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			I think I am going to ban you from my place, too!
		
Click to expand...

Thank goodness for that! I've been chucked out of much better places!


----------



## Odvan (Oct 11, 2013)

Driven2Distraction said:



			There's no straightforwad answers (hence 15+ pages of forum debate)
		
Click to expand...

D2D, allow me to add my public and free forum coaching comment on the back of your detailed posts by advising you to change your settings in your profile to 20 replies per page...makes for much easier reading!


----------



## JustOne (Oct 11, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			im not good at the technical stuff .. but like others i commend his helpfulness to others , not too many people give of their time freely anymore ..
		
Click to expand...

Technical?? It's all easy!!! 

Thanks for your sentiment, I just like helping people, I've seen so many people struggle with this simple (ha!) game :thup:


----------



## Slab (Oct 11, 2013)

Hypothetically obviously... but letâ€™s just see things from the point of view of a fictitious zippy Range Pro...

â€¢	Thatâ€™s the chap who was teaching here for a full day the other week!
â€¢	He was here earlier this week too with another chap for several hours!
â€¢	Now heâ€™s back today with a third different guy and by the looks of things heâ€™s planning to stay till dark!
â€¢	Every time heâ€™s here everyone stops to watch!
â€¢	An audience actually gathered round him at one point!
â€¢	Heâ€™s made no introduction & no prior arrangements to use my range like this
â€¢	Heâ€™s made no payment to use my range as a teaching facility, just pays the going rate for balls
â€¢	Folks are actually trying to book lessons with him at the front desk!
â€¢	Some think he works for me!
â€¢	He gave at least one other member a tip as he was walking past! And countless others who just eavesdrop on his lessons 
â€¢	When I asked him about it the other day he said it was just a mate and it was all for free and I said ok & only then does he tell me that he & another â€˜mateâ€™ will be along at the weekend!
â€¢	Clearly he has passion & knowledge for the game but thereâ€™s a limit to everything
â€¢	My range visitors might even be meeting him at another range down the road for their free lessons!!
â€¢	Free Â½ day/full day lessons! He must think Iâ€™m buttoned up the back!
â€¢	Mind you Iâ€™m the one that has to pay for all the property, salaries & running costs that even allow him the chance to teach here for free 
â€¢	Iâ€™ve no idea if Iâ€™m even inured for this kind of thing
â€¢	Iâ€™ll have to put a stop to this... 

Just worth considering who the victim is in this


----------



## JustOne (Oct 11, 2013)

^
^
If you want to put the worst possible 'spin' on it then I agree with you.... can you do a list with the BEST possible spin now 






Slab said:



			â€¢	Free Â½ day/full day lessons! He must think Iâ€™m buttoned up the back!
		
Click to expand...

Love this!!! :rofl:


----------



## Slab (Oct 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			^
^
If you want to put the worst possible 'spin' on it then I agree with you.... can you do a list with the BEST possible spin now 

Click to expand...

Hypothetically obviously... but letâ€™s just see things from the point of view of a fictitious zippy Range Pro...
_*(Best possible spin version)*_

â€¢	Thatâ€™s the chap who was teaching here for near a full day the other week!
â€¢	He was here earlier this week too with another chap for several hours!
â€¢	Now heâ€™s back today with a third different guy and by the looks of things heâ€™s planning to stay till dark!
â€¢	Iâ€™ve taken him on to do all my lessons for free while I continue to charge the mug punters!
â€¢	Result!


----------



## bladeplayer (Oct 11, 2013)

Slab said:



			Hypothetically obviously... but letâ€™s just see things from the point of view of a fictitious zippy Range Pro...
_*(Best possible spin version)*_

â€¢    Thatâ€™s the chap who was teaching here for near a full day the other week!
â€¢    He was here earlier this week too with another chap for several hours!
â€¢    Now heâ€™s back today with a third different guy and by the looks of things heâ€™s planning to stay till dark!
â€¢    Iâ€™ve taken him on to do all my lessons for free while I continue to charge the mug punters!
â€¢    Result!
		
Click to expand...

Or ... 
jeez this fella is bringing his mates down 

They are buying use of  hundreds of balls
they have bought greens fees for the course 
they have used the refreshments/cafe/bar 

they have gotten my current range users talking about & possibly  interested in taking lessons from me .. 

Just a thought tho  ......... im beginning to wonder why im defending JO so well on this subject ha ..  

For the record i see both sides of the discussion and it will take the people involved to talk and get a happy resolution or JO will just find another range , talk to the pro FIRST and use their facilities


----------



## Slab (Oct 11, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			For the record i see both sides of the discussion and it will take the people involved to talk and get a happy resolution or JO will just find another range , talk to the pro FIRST and use their facilities
		
Click to expand...

Have to agree with this, too many folks who clearly seek & can benefit from this for JO to give up now!


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 14, 2013)

I've emailed the club manager asking them to explain their actions - so I guess we'll see what they have to say (if they reply).


----------



## D4RK1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I can - just about - see both sides of the argument, but mostly I think this is really sad. I got into the game when my mate offered to take me to the range and show me what to do. I guess many of us had the same experience. How else do you try the game without shelling out cash? I have returned the favour for beginners, hoping they will catch the bug like I did.
Not long ago I played with a mate who struck the ball really well but, it transpired, had no idea how far he hit each club. So off we went to the range and spent a nice afternoon with him hitting balls and me measuring with my laser and writing it all down for him. 
Over the years I have had complete strangers offering advice on the range and also asking me for help.
So when does this go from being OK to breaking some rule?
I think it is really great, admirable in fact, that you are prepared to spend so much time helping your mates. Actually, this is all really for the love of the game. I, like many of us I guess, take great joy in talking about golf, working out how to hit the ball better etc etc. This forum is, in itself, a fine example of this. It is a real shame that commerce has got in the way of what is actually a couple of guys enjoying the game and a man trying to help his mates.
		
Click to expand...




HickoryShaft said:



			I find this almost sureal.

I do sort of understand the range / Pro being a bit put out if they thought JO was another Pro on their patch but once it was established he was not I just cannot see why they reacted the way they did.

At the range I go to there are lots of people who go down in pairs and 'spot' each other. Some of the best players at my club can be found there on occasions checking each others swings etc. I have watched a couple of time as they stike the ball so well its something to behold.

Although in a very very different category I go there with a mate and if we are stuggling with a shot we talk each other through it and see if w can spot any obvious mistakes. Sure no one is going to mistake us for Pro's (we would be bankrupt) but we have videoed our swings on our phones to show us what we need to work on etc. In fact we are there tonight.

I have also had a few words with some of the good players from my club when down at the range (not attached to the club)  who have pointed me in the right direction on a few things 

This is useful time to develop a game and try out things.

Seperately I have had lessons and used the Pro (s) from both the range and my club - in between I have worked on the lesson on my own with lots of buckets of balls by myself or when with mates to try and 'groove a swing'

For me its completely normal to work on things on the range and while JO and the people he has been helping have spent several hours there which may be beyond what others would do it seems very very harsh for the range to take this approach to me.

I think that JustOne deserves a GM forum medal for helping out others out of the goodness of his heart and his love of the game.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with the above replies and couldn't put it any better myself


----------



## 19thagain (Oct 14, 2013)

I also totally agree with D4RK1 above.


----------



## londonlewis (Oct 14, 2013)

I regularly play golf in that region and will probably not play at farleigh golf club now. 
Having said that, is the course any good?

i think it is such a shame about how you have been treated and I hope you find a new home where you can continue to share all your wisdom. 
I imagine people stop and stare because you help people get results. Whereas others may not see improvements when they pay for their lessons.?!?...


----------



## richart (Oct 14, 2013)

Slightly off track, when I was a member at Farnham Nick Faldo asked if he could use the practice ground. The practice ground is huge one of the best in the area. The club said he could as long as he paid.


----------



## londonlewis (Oct 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			If you want to put the worst possible 'spin' on it then I agree with you.... can you do a list with the BEST possible spin now 

Click to expand...

i think the danger to the club is that customers are now connected more than ever. People talk, customers talk and we will share the positive and negative experience we have as consumers. Businesses can no longer treat customers as a commodity to squeeze as much cash out of as possible. The main issue I see is that prospective golfers can quite easily find as much information about a course before they play or visit and they may stumble across a forum, read negative comments and decide not to visit - I'm not going as far as to say this would happen to Farleigh golf club because of this thread (as I feel the earlier arguments posted by 'slab' were very articulate and very just) but clubs need to consider how they treat each and every customer.


----------



## Jimbooo (Oct 18, 2013)

spoke to the Farleigh GM today and he's going to get back to me after speaking with the Pro when he gets back from leave


----------



## CMAC (Oct 18, 2013)

richart said:



			Slightly off track, when I was a member at Farnham Nick Faldo asked if he could use the practice ground. The practice ground is huge one of the best in the area. The club said he could as long as he paid.

Click to expand...

I thought all PGA pro's had courtesy (within reason) of any affiliated PGA recognised golf course? if not they should have as a professional courtesy


----------



## richart (Oct 18, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I thought all PGA pro's had courtesy (within reason) of any affiliated PGA recognised golf course? if not they should have as a professional courtesy
		
Click to expand...

 This was 20 years ago at least.


----------



## CMAC (Oct 18, 2013)

richart said:



			This was 20 years ago at least.
		
Click to expand...

I realise that, in fact it was probably over 20 years ago my Pro told me this


----------



## richart (Oct 18, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I realise that, in fact it was probably over 20 years ago my Pro told me this
		
Click to expand...

 Can only say what happened, not the rights and wrongs of it.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I thought all PGA pro's had courtesy (within reason) of any affiliated PGA recognised golf course? if not they should have as a professional courtesy
		
Click to expand...

Definitely not! 

They are entitled to ask though and there's usually a positive response - and the expectation of a Reciprocal for Club Pros or some favour from Touring ones. 

I believe Faldo was eventually asked not to use Swinley Forest (so much) as he was deemed to be using it excessively. It was pretty local to him. Mind you, Bernard Hunt once laughed when I mentioned playing Swinley. He'd been chucked off it years previously as his host hadn't registered his 'Professional' status! Swinley actually do give (reasonable) courtesy to Pros btw.

I know Wentworth charge Member's guest rate and have a restriction on how often. My old club used to be happy to provide practice facilities for Touring Pros, one of whom actually lived in an apartment within the property.

It's normally an arrangement between the Course and their PGA Pro, so not simply a case of turning up and expecting to be able to play for free!


----------



## CMAC (Oct 18, 2013)

richart said:



			Can only say what happened, not the rights and wrongs of it.
		
Click to expand...

yes I understand that, apologies if it came across differently, I was only quoting my Pro at the time and just accepted it, this same pro also said if he had a handicap of 1 he would clean up everything


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 25, 2013)

Not wanting to flare this up again.... However.... I was at a different range from normal tonight (kingsacre) and they have a sign up that states "absolutely no instruction on the range", or words to that effect anyway!

Thought you might be interested.


----------



## DCB (Oct 25, 2013)

Best in the area FD, where do you normally go ?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 25, 2013)

DCB said:



			Best in the area FD, where do you normally go ?
		
Click to expand...

Usually go to the braids but now that I've discovered Kingsacre I think I'll be there more often in future. Great range, just a bit pricier.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 25, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			I was at a different range from normal tonight (kingsacre) and they have a sign up that states "absolutely no instruction on the range", or words to that effect anyway!

Thought you might be interested.
		
Click to expand...

Good job you didn't go there to help a friend.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 26, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Good job you didn't go there to help a friend.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, it struck me as a rather draconian edict.

My OH is still getting the basics sorted, this suggests if we went there to hit some balls I wouldn't even be able to give a few pointers. I'd like to think they wouldn't have an issue with that and are just covering themselves against..... errm... someone coming and spending hours giving lessons..... 

Probably wouldn't even have noticed the sign if not for this discussion.


----------

