# Is it better than a hole in one?



## Loz1607 (Feb 22, 2015)

I played yesterday and hooked my drive in the the rough on 17.  With about 170 to go over a green side bunker, I hit a 6 iron which looked good all the way in the air.   Playing partners said it took a hard bounce and the lost sight of it thinking it went over the back.  

When I got to the green I couldn't see the ball and was only when someone checked the hole we found the ball.  First time I have holed out from that like that.  So was more than happy.  Would hve prefered to see it go in though


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

Still an eagle. I know what you mean about wanting to see it go in but take the bonus and enjoy the moment. Well played


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## Revrec (Feb 22, 2015)

Loz1607 said:



			Would hve prefered to see it go in though
		
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Only time I've holed out from any distance (75-80yds) I missed it. Saw it come down and thought it had landed beyond the flag. I'd lost sight of it and thought it had gone on beyond. Got to the green, looked around non-plussed, and a voice from the spike bar terrace bellowed "It's in the hole you tÂ£&t!"


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## snell (Feb 22, 2015)

Nice shot!

Havent had neither a hole in one or an eagle, i think i would prefer a hole in one! But i wouldnt turn my nose up at an eagle lol


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## Loz1607 (Feb 22, 2015)

Ironically we were talking during the round and I mentioned the only eagle I'd had since joining new club had been in greensomes. 

Nice 5 points though


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## snell (Feb 22, 2015)

Loz1607 said:



			Ironically we were talking during the round and I mentioned the only eagle I'd had since joining new club had been in greensomes. 

Nice 5 points though 

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Haha, i got my first 5 pointer back end of last year. Birded the SI1 at a local course........didnt go down too well with my PP's


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 22, 2015)

My best is a 210 hole out on our 18th with a 7 wood a few years ago. Saw it all the way. Rolled onto the green left to right towards the hole and I couldn't believe it as it got nearer and nearer and then disappeared. 

My PP, not the most loquacious bloke said flatly, "I think that went in" with no hint of emotion or any supplementary "Great shot!" etc. Took a bit of the polish off it to be honest although I lost no time bending everyone in the group's ear when I got in - bit like I'm doing now! 

Never aced one though. Hanging on the lip once but didn't drop. Hmmph!


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## chillicon (Feb 22, 2015)

In answer to your question, no it isn't even as good as a hole in one, but a great shot all the same.


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## Revrec (Feb 22, 2015)

chillicon said:



			In answer to your question...
		
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Oh yeah - forgot about that bit. I'd prefer a hole-in-one too.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

No difference between that and a hole in one to me. Both contain massive elements of luck.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

In answer to the OP - no it's not but still a great shot


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## Loz1607 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No difference between that and a hole in one to me. Both contain massive elements of luck.
		
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I agree.  Lots of luck involved.  But how many times do we hit a great shot and get a bad bounce etc.  not sure it evens out lol. 

I someways for me the par save where I chipped out after another wayward drive, knocked on and holed the putt was more satisfying!


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## palindromicbob (Feb 22, 2015)

Similar requirements as a hole in one but without the bar bill .  Still think a hole in one would be at the ultimate but it would need to be a good one. Have seen one after a friend thinned a 7i off the tee and I'd sooner have a well struck shot for eagle than a duffed hole in one if that were my only choices.

My only eagle was during a practice round and doesn't count for squat because I was alone.  Great drive down the middle of the fairway and 130 yards up hill hit an 8i.  Thought I'd gone long and through the green. Spent ages looking for my ball before I checked the hole.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

Its funny how one shot from distance doesn't equate to another shot from the same distance simply because of the par of the hole.
To me, any full shot that goes in is as good as another. It has the same effect on the cardnafter all.
Why should a holed 160 yard shot to a par 3 be worth more than a holed 160 yard shot on a par 4?
Surely one is just as hard, and needs just as much luck, as the other..
Unless you can answer that question then theyre the same in my view.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

The feeling you get writing 1 in the strokes box as opposed to the points box makes it what it truly is.

X10 better than a holed out eagle.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 22, 2015)

I remember reading a feature in one of the mags years ago, may have even be our hosts here, where a guy went out and hit a squill ion balls over the course of a day to a par 3. 

He got no aces at all and the conclusion was that Lady Luck plays a mahoosive part in any hole in one, which of course she does.

Nevertheless great shot though on your eagle today.


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Its funny how one shot from distance doesn't equate to another shot from the same distance simply because of the par of the hole.
To me, any full shot that goes in is as good as another. It has the same effect on the cardnafter all.
Why should a holed 160 yard shot to a par 3 be worth more than a holed 160 yard shot on a par 4?
Surely one is just as hard, and needs just as much luck, as the other..
Unless you can answer that question then theyre the same in my view.
		
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Because you are doing the hole in the least amount of strokes possible. 1 that's always better than a 2.....


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			Because you are doing the hole in the least amount of strokes possible. 1 that's always better than a 2.....
		
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But if I knock in my 2nd shot on a 430 yard par 4 I've played that hole in the fewest shots possible so there's no "real" difference is there....unless you can drive the ball 430 yards.


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## chillicon (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No difference between that and a hole in one to me. Both contain massive elements of luck.
		
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I wouldn't believe anyone who said they wouldn't rather have a hole in 1 than an eagle 2. 

An albatross 2, might need some further thought.


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## ruff-driver (Feb 22, 2015)

Once youv'e ticked the ace box, an eagle two is next on the bucket list :thup:


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## chillicon (Feb 22, 2015)

ruff-driver said:



			Once youv'e ticked the ace box, an eagle two is next on the bucket list :thup:
		
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I know exactly how many 1s I have had, but haven't kept track of the eagle 2s.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

I've had 14 eagles, the first of which was a hole-in-one, but have only seen 5 or maybe 6 (I saw it disappear, but on a front to back sloping green) of them go in! Only putted for 3 of them!

Hole-in-one is still tops, but a successful putt for eagle is the most satisfying!


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## Loz1607 (Feb 22, 2015)

Must add I have had a few Eagles over the years on par 4 and 5s. Just none with a holed full shot.  

Have seen a 2 on a par 5.  Playing partner holed his approach from 220. Was a great shot for 6 points


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## Tiger man (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No difference between that and a hole in one to me. Both contain massive elements of luck.
		
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How can it be luck when you are hitting a shot to go in the hole? If you are pin hunting it is not luck just perfect execution. If you were aiming for centre of green and drain it in a back left pin position say, that's luck.


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## Merv_swerve (Feb 22, 2015)

chillicon said:



			I wouldn't believe anyone who said they wouldn't rather have a hole in 1 than an eagle 2. 

An albatross 2, might need some further thought.
		
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An albatross 2 made our local paper a couple of years ago.  Truly magnificent.
Player rightly said a HOI is 1 great shot.  An albatross is 2 great shots.


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## julsk10 (Feb 22, 2015)

Holed out twice on our 18th from 130yds. The first time the following week was a charity day with a prize for nearest the pin with second shot. Didn't even hit green then!


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			But if I knock in my 2nd shot on a 430 yard par 4 I've played that hole in the fewest shots possible so there's no "real" difference is there....unless you can drive the ball 430 yards.
		
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Not me but I have watched Dustin Johnson hit it that far.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

No idea how many Eagles I have but recall every hole in one


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## CMAC (Feb 22, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I've had 14 eagles, the first of which was a hole-in-one, but have only seen 5 or maybe 6 (I saw it disappear, but on a front to back sloping green) of them go in! Only putted for 3 of them!

Hole-in-one is still tops, *but a successful putt for eagle is the most satisfying!*

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I find 2 putts for eagle more satisfying!

@ the OP.....No is the answer to your question:smirk:


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2015)

Our first par three about 165-170 yd and I bladdered  my hybrid it was down its throat all the way. When I got to the green it was 20ft past the hole. My PP said look at your pitch mark, it was half over the hole on the right hand side. It was 1/4" from slam dunking.

still brings back emotional memories.&#128514;


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## Nashy (Feb 22, 2015)

I lipped out on our par 4 12th 282yards. I watched it the whole way, pitched just off the green and ran upto the hole and lipped out. I of course missed the 4ft putt come back!

I have eagled a good few par 4 and 5 over the years but I am still after that magical hole in one!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			How can it be luck when you are hitting a shot to go in the hole? If you are pin hunting it is not luck just perfect execution. If you were aiming for centre of green and drain it in a back left pin position say, that's luck.
		
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You just keep telling yourself that, I'll stick with being realistic.

I've seen several holes ine one, two of them got no more than 4 feet off the ground, one rolled through a bunker, they were not perfect execution.

The ones that were good shots didn't fly stright into the hole. The bounced and ran several yards along the green before falling into the hole. If you want to tell me that those guys were aiming directly at the spot they landed on with the right amount of spin and the right pace to take the break on the green to fall into the hole was perfect execution than you carry on. Me, I'll accept that neither of those guys knew exactly how far the hole was away or are good enough to hit the ball exactly the right distance short of the hole for it to bounce and roll along the green and fall in, yes they hit a good shot but going in was luck, pure and simple.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverbirdie has gone on the record to say

"all hole in ones are jammy until I get one''.




Of course getting the ball to go into the hole requires luck.  Giving it that chance usually requires some skill.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

Plenty of eagles. A few par four holes at WCGC driveable in the summer and lucky enough to make a few putts. Had a couple where I've holed second shots on par fours (definitely lucky) and a one at RAGC hitting a par five in two. Never hand an ace but it will outweigh the eagles when it happens. Of course it's down to luck to a large part and even a bad tee shot on a par 3 has the potential to be an ace


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Liverbirdie has gone on the record to say

"all hole in ones are jammy until I get one''.




*Of course getting the ball to go into the hole requires luck.  Giving it that chance usually requires some skill.*

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So why is the skill of the shot for a HIO better than that of a holed 2nd shot?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

Had a hole in one with the ball going straight in the hole from a perfectly hit shot -aimed for the hole and it went in

Another one I aimed just past the pin - it landed past the pin then span back in the hole 

Is that luck or hitting the ball really well ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Had a hole in one with the ball going straight in the hole from a perfectly hit shot -aimed for the hole and it went in

Another one I aimed just past the pin - it landed past the pin then span back in the hole 

Is that luck or hitting the ball really well ?
		
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Was it really perfectly hit? Did you know exactly to the mm how far the hole was and deliberately tried to hit it that exact distance? Somehow I doubt it. My guess it that you knew roughly how far the hole was and happened to, on that occasion, make a swing that meant the ball landed straight in the hole. It wasn't perfect execution.

I hit my 2nd shot straight into the hole on the 18th the other week, it was a good shot, but the fact it went straight in the hole was luck.


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So why is the skill of the shot for a HIO better than that of a holed 2nd shot?
		
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its not about skill, its about completing a hole in a single shot, nothing else compares.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Had a hole in one with the ball going straight in the hole from a perfectly hit shot -aimed for the hole and it went in

Another one I aimed just past the pin - it landed past the pin then span back in the hole 

Is that luck or hitting the ball really well ?
		
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Both lucky. I'm assuming the first slammed dunked in. Luck to hit it the exact yardage and it not to bounce up. Second one lucky to spin back on exactly the correct line. There is definitely luck involved in all these holed shots and I won't accept otherwise. Yes it's nice when it comes off, and yes it's the aim to get it in the hole asap but there's luck in there


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			ita not about skill, its about completing a hole in a single shot, nothing else compares.
		
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So if it's not about skill, it must be luck?


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So if it's not about skill, it must be luck?
		
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I dont actually know what your talking about. I am saying an ace is better than a 2 shot eagle.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Was it really perfectly hit? Did you know exactly to the mm how far the hole was and deliberately tried to hit it that exact distance? Somehow I doubt it. My guess it that you knew roughly how far the hole was and happened to, on that occasion, make a swing that meant the ball landed straight in the hole. It wasn't perfect execution.

I hit my 2nd shot straight into the hole on the 18th the other week, it was a good shot, but the fact it went straight in the hole was luck.
		
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Well glad to see you can make a judgement on a shot you never saw 

The ball went the exact distance i required to have the hole in one - i didn't get lucky bounce , it wasn't a thin along the ground or a fat or a bounce of a tree ( which I have had and was lucky ) or hit the flag to help it 

To dismiss hole in ones as lucky is extremely narrow minded and just dismisses acts of skill and correct execution for that one shot


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			I dont actually know what your talking about. I am saying an ace is better than a 2 shot eagle.
		
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And I'm saying there's no difference, they're both completing the hole in the fewest number of shots and are both luck


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			And I'm saying there's no difference, they're both completing the hole in the fewest number of shots and are both luck
		
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But there have been plenty of aces on par 4s aswell. and its is possible to ace a par 5 too so you are wrong.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So why is the skill of the shot for a HIO better than that of a holed 2nd shot?
		
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I am not saying it is any more skilful.  HIO is like the holy grail for a golfer.   


Like an overhead kick and a tap in.  They all count as one goal but pretty sure everyone wants the overhead kick.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well glad to see you can make a judgement on a shot you never saw 

The ball went the exact distance i required to have the hole in one - i didn't get lucky bounce , it wasn't a thin along the ground or a fat or a bounce of a tree ( which I have had and was lucky ) or hit the flag to help it 

To dismiss hole in ones as lucky is extremely narrow minded and just dismisses acts of skill and correct execution for that one shot
		
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So did you know "exactly" how far away the hole was?

There's nothing narrow minded about it and it's not taking away from a good shot, it's just being realistic. A shot that lands 6" from the hole is no better or worse than one that goes in, the one that went in just had a bit more luck to it.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

The question is, ''is it better''.    yes, because of the acclaim attached.


Has anyone ever got their name up on a board in the clubhouse for an eagle two?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So did you know "exactly" how far away the hole was?

There's nothing narrow minded about it and it's not taking away from a good shot, it's just being realistic. A shot that lands 6" from the hole is no better or worse than one that goes in, the one that went in just had a bit more luck to it.
		
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Of course it's taking it away from being a good shot - it's just dismissing acts of skill

If we go by your line of thought any act of skill in sport is all down to luck for the way it ends up - a 30 yard screamer , a jinking run to score a try , hitting an ace - all down to luck ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			But there have been plenty of aces on par 4s aswell. and its is possible to ace a par 5 too so you are wrong.
		
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Sigh:


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Sigh:
		
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Great comeback.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course it's taking it away from being a good shot - it's just dismissing acts of skill

If we go by your line of thought any act of skill in sport is all down to luck for the way it ends up - a 30 yard screamer , a jinking run to score a try , hitting an ace - all down to luck ?
		
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I give up, you win. Every hole in one is intended and involves no luck at all. In each case the player was intending to hit the ball exactly where they hit it and the ball reacted exactly as they intended before going in. No luck involved whatsoever.

So just tell me again, why don't we get more of them?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			Great comeback.
		
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I've given up, I was wrong


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I give up, you win. Every hole in one is intended and involves no luck at all. In each case the player was intending to hit the ball exactly where they hit it and the ball reacted exactly as they intended before going in. No luck involved whatsoever.

So just tell me again, why don't we get more of them?
		
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The same reason why players don't get birdies on every hole - people naturally don't hit the perfect shot every time they hit the ball

And never said all hole in ones have no luck - have had one of a tree - that was lucky but a great deal of shots and results are down to skill and execution.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course it's taking it away from being a good shot - it's just dismissing acts of skill

If we go by your line of thought any act of skill in sport is all down to luck for the way it ends up - a 30 yard screamer , a jinking run to score a try , hitting an ace - all down to luck ?
		
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Allegedly the odds of hitting a HIO is 64k:1 (or similar)
I don't know the odds of, say, scoring a goal like Liverpool's first today are but I suspect even I could get it right once in a couple of thousand trys....
There is a huge amount of luck scoring a HIO - if it was all about skill then the Pros would be getting a couple each round - each!
At the end of the day a HIO or a hole-out from distance on a par 4 have exactly the same effect on the scorecard. Its only a traditional attitude that seems to make it more worthwhile.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The same reason why players don't get birdies on every hole - people naturally don't hit the perfect shot every time they hit the ball

And never said all hole in ones have no luck - have had one of a tree - that was lucky but a great deal of shots and results are down to skill and execution.
		
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I'm not saying they aren't just that the ones that go in involve luck and that holing out for a HIO is no better than holing out for ann eagle on a par 4 or 5


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Allegedly the odds of hitting a HIO is 64k:1 (or similar)
I don't know the odds of, say, scoring a goal like Liverpool's first today are but I suspect even I could get it right once in a couple of thousand trys....
There is a huge amount of luck scoring a HIO - if it was all about skill then the Pros would be getting a couple each round - each!
At the end of the day a HIO or a hole-out from distance on a par 4 have exactly the same effect on the scorecard. Its only a traditional attitude that seems to make it more worthwhile.
		
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But the hole in one could be on a par 4. So its not the same is it.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Allegedly the odds of hitting a HIO is 64k:1 (or similar)
I don't know the odds of, say, scoring a goal like Liverpool's first today are but I suspect even I could get it right once in a couple of thousand trys....
There is a huge amount of luck scoring a HIO - if it was all about skill then the Pros would be getting a couple each round - each!
At the end of the day a HIO or a hole-out from distance on a par 4 have exactly the same effect on the scorecard. Its only a traditional attitude that seems to make it more worthwhile.
		
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Once again Imurg, we are in agreement :thup:


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm not saying they aren't just that the ones that go in involve luck and that holing out for a HIO is no better than holing out for ann eagle on a par 4 or 5
		
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Do you really not rate your ace(s) higher than your  2/3 shot eagles?


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			But the hole in one could be on a par 4. So its not the same is it.
		
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A HIO on a par 4 isn't an Eagle so its not the same is it..


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			Do you really not rate your ace(s) higher than your  2/3 shot eagles?
		
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I really don't see the difference.


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			A HIO on a par 4 isn't an Eagle so its not the same is it..
		
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Its still a hole in one......


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm not saying they aren't just that the ones that go in involve luck and that holing out for a HIO is no better than holing out for ann eagle on a par 4 or 5
		
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The level of skill between holing a 2nd shot or 3rd shot is the same as holing the first shot

There is just nothjng that beats completing the hole is one single shot - the feeling is better , the kudos but getting it in the hole from anywhere requires skill just don't think it's right to dismiss good shots and put the result down to luck


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			Its still a hole in one......
		
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And as such is a much rarer beast - one worthy of the title, much like a 2 on a Par 5.
The principle is the same - it has the same effect on the scorecard .

What would give you more satisfaction - a HIO on a 125 yard par 3 or holing out for a 2 from 200 yards on a long par 4...?


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			And as such is a much rarer beast - one worthy of the title, much like a 2 on a Par 5.
The principle is the same - it has the same effect on the scorecard .

What would give you more satisfaction - a HIO on a 125 yard par 3 or holing out for a 2 from 200 yards on a long par 4...?
		
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the ace


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			the ace
		
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Why?
You've still played the hole in as few shots as possible.....


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Why?
You've still played the hole in as few shots as possible.....
		
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no.... you did the par 5 in two....


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The level of skill between holing a 2nd shot or 3rd shot is the same as holing the first shot

There is just nothjng that beats completing the hole is one single shot - the feeling is better , the kudos but getting it in the hole from anywhere requires skill just don't think it's right to dismiss good shots and put the result down to luck
		
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I'm not and never have dismissed the good shots. I just think the difference between them going in and not is luck.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			no.... you did the par 5 in two....
		
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Where does the par 5 come into it?
125 yard par 3 in 1 and 450 yard par 4 in 2


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			no.... you did the par 5 in two....
		
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But if the person hitting the ball can't reach the par 5 in one, but holes it in two he has used the fewest number of shots possible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm not and never have dismissed the good shots. I just think the difference between them going in and not is luck.
		
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We will agree to disagree then :thup:


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

Hugo boss don't knock out watches for measly twos :rofl:


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Where does the par 5 come into it?
125 yard par 3 in 1 and 450 yard par 4 in 2
		
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You mentioned a par 5 as well. Anyway Aces are great as are hole outs from the fairway and I am lucky to have done both several times. I hope you have too.


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## guest100718 (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			But if the person hitting the ball can't reach the par 5 in one, but holes it in two he has used the fewest number of shots possible.
		
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No he hasnt.... the fewest would be one.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The level of skill between holing a 2nd shot or 3rd shot is the same as holing the first shot

There is just nothjng that beats completing the hole is one single shot - the feeling is better , the kudos but *getting it in the hole from anywhere requires skill just don't think it's right to dismiss good shots and put the result down to luck*

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Getting it with 8 or ten feet might be a result of skill, but getting it in the hole is all luck!


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## Tiger man (Feb 22, 2015)

Obviously you can have a lucky hole in one, as has been stated, but a well struck shot that goes in the desired target is not luck just the perfect shot. Hence why the odds are so high as it is very difficult to do, so to dismiss it when it is achieved as luck is insulting to the person who has hit it.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 22, 2015)

There's no such thing as a perfect shot. It's known that a robot can't hit precisely the same shot twice, chance always has to be a factor. How you make chance smaller (and the intended outcome larger) is a skill but chance never goes away. 

If you keep minimising chance to near zero, quantum physics would kick in and would mean you can't ever predict the outcome of the intended shot. 

Worse still, if you were a golfer called Schrodinger, you might never know if the ball was in the hole. So in in theory, every shot ever played in golf is a hole in one until its observed that it isn't.


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## Tiger man (Feb 22, 2015)

Jimaroid said:



			There's no such thing as a perfect shot. It's known that a robot can't hit precisely the same shot twice, chance always has to be a factor. How you make chance smaller (and the intended outcome larger) is a skill but chance never goes away. 

If you keep minimising chance to near zero, quantum physics would kick in and would mean you can't ever predict the outcome of the intended shot. 

Worse still, if you were a golfer called Schrodinger, you might never know if the ball was in the hole. So in in theory, every shot ever played in golf is a hole in one until its observed that it isn't.
		
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Hi Steven Hawkins when did you take up golf?


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## Jack_bfc (Feb 22, 2015)

I have a hole in one in a comp!

But a well crafted and thought out birdie, like the one I got last year on our 14th (tough par 4) means more to me than a thinned 9 iron that hit the flag and went in!


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## Slab (Feb 23, 2015)

The Euro tour have plenty of cars on offer for a hole in one on a certain hole or specific day etc I guess the value will be in the region of 10's of thousands but I doubt it often gets to 6 figure value 

The May euro tour event will have a million dollar villa for an eagle on the par 4 17th

Someone seems to think it'll be a tad harder to get the eagle 



Without ever having had a HIO or eagle I think I'd be delighted with either though


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Feb 23, 2015)

Good shot, better than an ace - no.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 23, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			Obviously you can have a lucky hole in one, as has been stated, but a well struck shot that goes in the desired target is not luck just the perfect shot. Hence why the odds are so high as it is very difficult to do, so to dismiss it when it is achieved as luck is insulting to the person who has hit it.
		
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You are totally missing my point. I'm not taking anything away from the player hitting the shot, but the difference between a good shot that stops within a few feet and a good shot that goes in is luck, it can't be anything else.

Sure a HIO is something to talk about but there is no more or less skill (or luck) involved than holing out from the fairway.

My first aim on any approach is to hit the green somewhere near the pin to give myself a chance to make the putt. Holing it is not my intention because it simply isn't possible for me to purposely hit the exact shot required, taking into account all of the variables and unknowns, to deliberately hit the ball in the hole. All I get do is hit the shot to the best of my ability and hope for the best. That is all any of us can do. The skill is in hitting the ball in the vacinity of the hole. The luck is where it actually stops.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2015)

Well I've had a hole in 1 (went in the air, bounced and went in the hole at a pace you'd put it at, no rebounds etc) and an eagle (pitched in from about 110 yards).  And both were at the same time the luckiest and most skillful shots I've ever hit. Luck as in I could probably never do it again in 10 thousand tries.  Skill as it did exactly what I was intending it to do.

People that have had the misfortune to see me play could argue the hole in 1 must have been very lucky, but for those 10 or so seconds I could argue I was one of the best golfers on the planet, executing something that thousands of golfers try and fail to do every day . So I find it difficult to argue that there was not a huge amount of luck and for those 10 seconds, skill involved. 

And by the way the hole in I felt a hell of a lot better.


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## garyinderry (Feb 23, 2015)

Anything over around 15 feet is where luck begins to set in.  Only minor amounts building up to the large slices of luck required to hole out on a par 3 or from the fairway. 

If you can't repeat something two or three times in a row with consummate ease through skill, then lady luck is starting to appear. 

It is not luck for a good darts players to hit 3 bullseyes. It is when I do it. Lol


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Anything over around 15 feet is where luck begins to set in.  Only minor amounts building up to the large slices of luck required to hole out on a par 3 or from the fairway. 

If you can't repeat something two or three times in a row with consummate ease through skill, then lady luck is starting to appear. 

It is not luck for a good darts players to hit 3 bullseyes. It is when I do it. Lol
		
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So every golfer in the world is lucky?


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## garyinderry (Feb 23, 2015)

Some are just more in control of their luck than others. 


In golf, like a lot of things there will be elements of luck ranging from miniscule to humongous. Lots of people struggling with this concept.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Some are just more in control of their luck than others. 


In golf, like a lot of things there will be elements of luck ranging from miniscule to humongous. Lots of people struggling with this concept.
		
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I think we all get there is a degree of luck in golf, but when you are stood on the Tee on a par 3, I would think 99% of people visualize the shot, choose the right club, have everything right in there mind and play the shot, sometimes (very rarely) it goes in, why is that lucky, or every time we miss it's unlucky? No, sometimes it's down to the fact it was a good shot,
A long shot to the green when aiming for the green and not the flag that goes in, is lucky, because it's not what you aimed for


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## garyinderry (Feb 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I think we all get there is a degree of luck in golf, but when you are stood on the Tee on a par 3, I would think 99% of people visualize the shot, choose the right club, have everything right in there mind and play the shot, sometimes (very rarely) it goes in, why is that lucky
		
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The amount of things that need to fall into place for that shot is absolutely massive.  That is why the odds of a HIO are so big.  Anything could change the outcome of that ball going into the hole. 

List list could go on all day ...  not all are obvious

Hit a fraction to hard, soft it doesn't go in.
Green that bit softer / drier than 10 minutes ago it doesn't go in
Wind picked up/ dropped in any direction it doesn't go in.
You didn't clean the dirt from the 4th groove it doesn't go in.
Hits a tiny pebble from the sand on the green it doesn't go in.


This list is practically endless.  Some play a major, some play an near inconceivable part in the ball either going in or missing.

All you can do is given the ball the best chance of going in.  This is where skill takes a big chunk out of the odds.

If and Rory Milroy were to stand and pound balls at a green trying to get a HIO. His skill level would lower the odds of him getting one quicker then me.  It is not impossible for me to hole out quicker than him due to a large slice of luck.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2015)

But there are so many variables to any shot. A slight gust of wind, a speck of mud on the ball, even a slight scuff can all cause a shot to deviate one way or the other.
To hit a ball 150 yards and have it finish exactly where you want it to is virtually unrepeatable in a series of shots - therefore if it happens there must be an element of luck.
And who's to say someone approaching from 150 yards isn't aiming at the flag with a view to holing it...? So if it happens from the fairway or tee the result is the same.
They have equal importance and rely on equal amounts of luck.


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## Qwerty (Feb 23, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No difference between that and a hole in one to me. Both contain massive elements of luck.
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			So if it's not about skill, it must be luck?
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			So did you know "exactly" how far away the hole was?

There's nothing narrow minded about it and it's not taking away from a good shot, it's just being realistic. A shot that lands 6" from the hole is no better or worse than one that goes in, the one that went in just had a bit more luck to it.
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			I give up, you win. Every hole in one is intended and involves no luck at all. In each case the player was intending to hit the ball exactly where they hit it and the ball reacted exactly as they intended before going in. No luck involved whatsoever.

So just tell me again, why don't we get more of them?
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			I've given up, I was wrong
		
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You seem to be quite passionate about the amount of luck involved in the shot..

Have you ever had a hole in one?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 23, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The skill is in hitting the ball in the vacinity of the hole. The luck is where it actually stops.
		
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I think this sums it up perfectly  :thup:


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## CMAC (Feb 23, 2015)

Imurg said:



			But there are so many variables to any shot. A slight gust of wind, a speck of mud on the ball, even a slight scuff can all cause a shot to deviate one way or the other.
To hit a ball 150 yards and have it finish exactly where you want it to is virtually unrepeatable in a series of shots - *therefore if it happens there must be an element of luck.*
And who's to say someone approaching from 150 yards isn't aiming at the flag with a view to holing it...? So if it happens from the fairway or tee the result is the same.
They have equal importance and rely on equal amounts of luck.
		
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there is an element of luck in any sport, any 'shot' taken in anything you do is susceptible to chaos theory, more commonly referred to as the butterfly effect.

I remember watching a documentary on some top class cricketers and the researchers could make these 'stars' miss any bowled shot with minute variations in the ball landing area.

So I think we can all agree there is luck involved as even an automaton could not get a HIO each time.


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## chillicon (Feb 23, 2015)

Imurg said:



			What would give you more satisfaction - a HIO on a 125 yard par 3 or holing out for a 2 from 200 yards on a long par 4...?
		
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The fact that you had to make the hole out on the par 4 from much further away, undermines the point you were trying to make. Why not make it from the heavy rough with overhanging branches, over water, into gale force winds, with a bad back and a verruca on your big toe.

To me it doesn't matter which eagle shot is the most difficult, a 1 is better than a 2 every time.


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## guest100718 (Feb 23, 2015)

chillicon said:



			The fact that you had to make the hole out on the par 4 from much further away, undermines the point you were trying to make. Why not make it from the heavy rough with overhanging branches, over water, into gale force winds, with a bad back and a verruca on your big toe.

To me it doesn't matter which eagle shot is the most difficult, *a 1 is better than a 2 every time*.
		
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And that should be the end of the thread.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Getting it with 8 or ten feet might be a result of skill, but getting it in the hole is all luck!
		
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Well said.
I have had two albatross's, one a hole in one, three great shots though! 

My father had 5 hole in ones and his brother, who was one of Scotland's best professionals in his time, never achieved a hole in one.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2015)

I saw on one of their videos that Rick Shiels or Pete Finch said they had never had a hole in 1.  Kind of makes me embarrassed to say I have had one, if you compare our swings.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 23, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			You seem to be quite passionate about the amount of luck involved in the shot..

Have you ever had a hole in one?
		
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No, never had one but I have hit a lot of good shots very close, one day one might go in but it won't be the result of a better shot or any more skill on my part.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Feb 23, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No, never had one but I have hit a lot of good shots very close, one day one might go in but it won't be the result of a better shot or any more skill on my part.
		
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As I have posted I've been lucky and had 4 hole in ones (I've also holed out for an eagle two about 20 times) they were all good shots however, the 1st one was lucky, the 2nd one was lucky, the 3rd one was lucky and the last one I didn't see go in but I reckon it too was LUCKY


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 23, 2015)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			As I have posted I've been lucky and had 4 hole in ones (I've also holed out for an eagle two about 20 times) they were all good shots however, the 1st one was lucky, the 2nd one was lucky, the 3rd one was lucky and the last one I didn't see go in but I reckon it too was LUCKY
		
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Not completely lucky, but certainly an element of it. I've holed out for eagle a few times, they were good shots too, but also lucky.


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## John_Findlay (Feb 23, 2015)

OP raises an interesting point.

If anyone asks if I've had a hole-in-one I say yes, 2 actually. The 6th at Craigielaw and the 11th at Castle Stuart. But I've had 2 albatrosses at par 5s as well *which are clearly better*. 18th at Nairn Dunbar and the 8th at Mortonhall. 

Must have had umpteen eagles at par 4s from pitches etc over the last 35 years but I don't count them, strangely.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2015)

John_Findlay said:



			OP raises an interesting point.

If anyone asks if I've had a hole-in-one I say yes, 2 actually. The 6th at Craigielaw and the 11th at Castle Stuart. But I've had 2 albatrosses at par 5s as well *which are clearly better*. 18th at Nairn Dunbar and the 8th at Mortonhall. 

Must have had umpteen eagles at par 4s from pitches etc over the last 35 years but I don't count them, strangely.
		
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Ah.. But 1 is always better than 2 John.....:ears::thup:


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## chillicon (Feb 23, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Ah.. But 1 is always better than 2 John.....:ears::thup:
		
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Albatross 1 is better than albatross 2. Agreed.


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## John_Findlay (Feb 23, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Ah.. But 1 is always better than 2 John.....:ears::thup:
		
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Aye. And 3 under is better than 2 under! 

Agree that an albatross 1 does count as a hole in 1 though. Plenty of drivable par 4's down my way now. Give it time.


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