# Your Club's Course Rating & Slope Index



## 2blue (May 20, 2019)

I'm sure we're all interested to see how other courses compare, so if you have your details please share. 
I've also attached a Slope Table but as I don't know if these are Standardised items they maybe helpful but not absolutely accurate. Perhaps others can enlighten us


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## patricks148 (May 20, 2019)




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## Deleted member 16999 (May 20, 2019)

Did you get this the day the course was measured? If not, how long did you have to wait?

Seeing the above Patrick has posted, how much would your handicap change playing off the whites at his course?


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2019)

I have absolutely no idea what any of this means ðŸ˜‚


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## robbeh32 (May 20, 2019)

How do I find slope rating of my course?


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## patricks148 (May 20, 2019)

robbeh32 said:



			How do I find slope rating of my course?
		
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should be on the score card, if not you would have to ask the club, some might not have had it done yet, though you will need it when we go to the new handicap system next year i believe


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## Grant85 (May 20, 2019)

robbeh32 said:



			How do I find slope rating of my course?
		
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Not all courses will have a slope rating and some might have one from years ago that isn't officially published. 

Ultimately those with American handicaps will adapt their handicap on a course with a certain slope. The slope rating is supposed to determine how much harder a course is for an 18 handicapper to play, compared with a scratch golfer. 

So for example, a course with a load of forced carries in front of tees or some real penal bunkering around the greens is going to have a high slope rating. This should give an 18 handicapper an extra shot or two on a scratch golfer, for whom the slope rating is not going to impact. Similarly an easy course where an 18 handicapper will find it easier to score will get fewer shots. 

Most courses that are aiming at a few tourist dollars will have an official slope rating done for American visitors. 

My understanding is that from 2020 all courses will need this. Whether this is being done by associations or clubs are having to pay for it themsleves... I'm not sure. It may be that this is a barrier to the new handicap system starting from next year.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you get this the day the course was measured? If not, how long did you have to wait?

Seeing the above Patrick has posted, how much would your handicap change playing off the whites at his course?
		
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It depends on what your exact handicap (ie handicap index) is.

*Course Handicap = Index x (Slope Rating of Tee on Course / 113)*
eg 18.0 would be 21. 5.1 would be 6

or try this

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-handicap-calculator.html


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			My understanding is that from 2020 all courses will need this. Whether this is being done by associations or clubs are having to pay for it themselves... I'm not sure. It may be that this is a barrier to the new handicap system starting from next year.
		
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The England Counties are well on the way of having all courses rated by early 2020. The rating is done by County Rating Teams. There is no charge to clubs. 
Courses in Scotland, Ireland and Wales (and England Ladies) have been using the USGA Rating System for years but many are being rerated. It is a requirement that all are done within a max of 10 years.
Courses are not yet being given their Slope Rating unless they specifically need it (for new card printing say). The Course Rating itself is the equivalent of the SSS and replaces it immediately. Slope will not be used until the new World Handicapping System comes into effect at the back end of 2020 in GB&I.


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## IanG (May 20, 2019)

Does anyone know the rationale for having the silly (it seems) definition of slope that needs to be divided by 113? Why not just include that in the definition of the slope from the beginning.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

113 is the figure that the USGA has determined to be the average figure.
But you will never have to use it (no one in the US does). Either use the calculator (plenty of apps) or the chart on the course.

But of course you would still have to multiply your index by the product of the slope/113


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

IanG said:



			Does anyone know the rationale for having the silly (it seems) definition of slope that needs to be divided by 113? Why not just include that in the definition of the slope from the beginning.
		
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113 is the Slope of an 'Average Difficulty' course. Your Index would be your handicap on an average difficulty course (i.e of slope 113). To calculate your handicap on any course, you multiply your index by the ratio of the course slopes (Target Course Slope/Average Course Slope.... Target Slope/113).

Check out the entries in this link if you want further info. http://www.popeofslope.com/courserating/system.html


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## Capella (May 20, 2019)

white (men) CR 72.4, SR 137, 6183 m
yellow(men) CR 71.9, SR 135, 6071 m
blue(men) CR 68, SR 122 (Par 71, one par5 plays as a par4), 5402 m
blue(women) CR 74.1, SR 131, 5402 m
red(women) CR 72.9, SR 127, 5229 m

except for the men off blue, all other tees are for a par 72


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## TerryA (May 20, 2019)

All the u.k. slope ratings that have been done so far are held on this database:

â€˜ncrdb.usga.orgâ€™


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## Lord Tyrion (May 20, 2019)

TerryA said:



			All the u.k. slope ratings that have been done so far are held on this database:

â€˜ncrdb.usga.orgâ€™
		
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Are they not only US courses? It asks for your State and will not allow you to bypass that question.


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## IanG (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			113 is the figure that the USGA has determined to be the average figure.
But you will never have to use it (no one in the US does). Either use the calculator (plenty of apps) or the chart on the course.

But of course you would still have to multiply your index by the product of the slope/113
		
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and Foxholer too. 

Thanks, the fact that you never have to use 113 is exactly what I am getting at . It is clear how the calculations are done but the current definition of slope makes them seem more complicated than they need to be. If the USGA decided to fix the average 'slope' at 1 instead of 113 then the slopes we would have for courses on cards would be some numbers between  ( 55/113) = 0.49 and 155/113=1.37  and the calculation would simply be 

Course Handicap = Index x Slope Rating of Tee on Course  

I know this makes not a jot of difference to the result but would I think make it much more understandable for those who can't be bothered thinking about it for 2 mins. Seems strange not to have gone down this route and I wondered if there was a reason I'm missing.


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## 2blue (May 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you get this the day the course was measured? If not, how long did you have to wait?

Seeing the above Patrick has posted, how much would your handicap change playing off the whites at his course?
		
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I'd be +2 shots at Patrick's off the whites. Pretty much equates to the SSS as well.
Not sure how quickly the results were returned, Paul


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Par is not relevant re Course Rating and Slope.

More often than not the new CR will turn out to be the same as the old SSS. Very, very rarely does it vary by more than one stroke. Often a rounding difference or that the course has changed a bit since it was last rated for SSS (sometimes up to 10 years ago).


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## Cake (May 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are they not only US courses? It asks for your State and will not allow you to bypass that question.
		
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I just left the state as â€˜(Select)â€™ and it worked for me


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

IanG said:



			Seems strange not to have gone down this route and I wondered if there was a reason I'm missing.
		
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Perhaps 
1) the fact that this all goes back 30 years or so
2) All courses in the US & Canada place a notice board with the pre calculated table, near the tees or proshop
3) It's instantly available on the app today

So no one need to do *any* arithmetic any more.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Cake said:



			I just left the state as â€˜(Select)â€™ and it worked for me
		
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It is by no means up to date. I suspect they are only the ones that were rated previously especially for US visitors.
I tried looking for a few in England that I personally rated and the're not showing but others are

Edit: Belay that. It just looks as if they are just a bit behind England Golf.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 20, 2019)

Whites           Yellows                     

Par                               72                 72
SSS                              73                 71

Slope                          127               124

Using the conversion tool my h/c goes up 2 shots. Will that actually happen or does it just mean that if I play to my current h/c when we cross over to this I should drop a couple of shots, or near to it?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			So you got a list of GB&I or England courses and tees?
		
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No, just don't click on that box, leave it as select. I have just followed the suggestion and it worked


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## Dasit (May 20, 2019)

my course rating is 129.

I am a 12 handicap and it says I should be a 14 at my course!

Does that mean my course is harder than average?


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## DRW (May 20, 2019)

BD is 72.4 / 133 off whites
ME is 70.2 / 123 off whites (home course)

Still not quite sure how I convert my 9.5 at ME handicap to say BD handicap ? (do I have to convert first to a 113 course, then back up to the 133 course, if it is I think I get 2 extra shos at BD but still 10 at ME)

Is there a simple calculator available that converts from one course ratings to another course, rather than convert to 113 and then convert again? or am I being stupid ? Doh!


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Dasit said:



			my course rating is 129.

I am a 12 handicap and it says I should be a 14 at my course!

Does that mean my course is harder than average?
		
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Yes! Or at least 'harder than 'standard'! I don't know of any courses with ratings 'less than standard', but I'd guess some of those wit SSS 2 or 3 lower than Par would be.


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## duncan mackie (May 20, 2019)

Dasit said:



			my course rating is 129.

I am a 12 handicap and it says I should be a 14 at my course!

Does that mean my course is harder than average?
		
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No 
it either  means it's relatively harder for the bogey golfer, and at 12 you are seeing some of that reflected in your playing handicap at that course.....
Or there is a difference between the rating and par for the tees you have selected (your handicap gets 'corrected' to be relevant to par)
Or a bit of both


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## Dasit (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yes! Or at least 'harder than 'standard'! I don't know of any courses with ratings 'less than standard', but I'd guess some of those wit SSS 2 or 3 lower than Par would be.
		
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duncan mackie said:



			No
it either  means it's relatively harder for the bogey golfer, and at 12 you are seeing some of that reflected in your playing handicap at that course.....
Or there is a difference between the rating and par for the tees you have selected (your handicap gets 'corrected' to be relevant to par)
Or a bit of both
		
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Ok thanks.

Par 71. USGA Course rating 70.2. Slope rating 129 and bogey rating 94.

I am going to do some reading up as quite interested to understand fully what it all means


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

DRW said:



			BD is 72.4 / 133 off whites
ME is 70.2 / 123 off whites (home course)

Still not quite sure how I convert my 9.5 at ME handicap to say BD handicap ? (do I have to convert first to a 113 course, then back up to the 133 course, if it is I think I get 2 extra shos at BD but still 10 at ME)

Is there a simple calculator available that converts from one course ratings to another course, rather than convert to 113 and then convert again? or am I being stupid ? Doh!
		
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I've experimented a bit with those numbers. Your Congu Handicap happens to be one that is convenient - as it''s the boundary from 9 to 10. So the highest Index that converts to 10 at ME is 8.8 - so will (for this exercise) will be your Index. That also converts to 10 at BD.

Here's the calculator....https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html 

Btw. The numbers don't quite correspond to 9.5*113/123 but it's within 0.1, so pretty close.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I've experimented a bit with those numbers. Your Congu Handicap happens to be one that is convenient - as it''s the boundary from 9 to 10. So the highest Index that converts to 10 at ME is 8.8 - so will (for this exercise) will be your Index. That also converts to 10 at BD.

Here's the calculator....https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

Btw. The numbers don't quite correspond to 9.5*113/123 but it's within 0.1, so pretty close.
		
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See post #8


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			See post #8
		
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Yep, that's what I was trying to 'simulate'!

Of course, the value of Index isn't known, so I used the least one that indicated a playing handicap at ME of 10 (which is what 9.5 happens to be)!

Using the USGA provided calculator for the several calcs involved was/is faster than using a normal calculator, but either/both work.


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## Khamelion (May 20, 2019)

Only the slope rating of the ladies tees at present at my club


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## cliveb (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I don't know of any courses with ratings 'less than standard', but I'd guess some of those wit SSS 2 or 3 lower than Par would be.
		
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Isn't the point of the slope rating to take account of the fact that the difficulty of a course can be different for scratch and bogey golfers?

A course with a SSS lower than par (ie. "easy for scratch golfers") isn't necessarly also easy for bogey golfers - in which case it may very well have a low course rating but a relatively high slope rating. I'm very much hoping this will be the case on my home course, which has a ridiculously low SSS (mainly because it's short) but is very tricky for handicap golfers.


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## jim8flog (May 20, 2019)

Our courses were measured and rated a couple of weeks ago but the figures have yet to be published.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

DRW said:



			BD is 72.4 / 133 off whites
ME is 70.2 / 123 off whites (home course)

Still not quite sure how I convert my *9.5 *at ME handicap to say BD handicap ? (do I have to convert first to a 113 course, then back up to the 133 course, if it is I think I get 2 extra shos at BD but still 10 at ME)

Is there a simple calculator available that converts from one course ratings to another course, rather than convert to 113 and then convert again? or am I being stupid ? Doh!
		
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Your handicap index is your handicap index regardless of where you are and which tees you are playing. Essentially it is the equivalent of your exact CONGU handicap.

You simply plug your index (9.5) into the formula/calculator and that is your Course Handicap

So for BD it is 11 and ME it is 10. The actual calculation result is rounded.  11.18 & 10.34


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. The numbers don't quite correspond to 9.5**113/123* but it's within 0.1, so pretty close.
		
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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Isn't the point of the slope rating to take account of the fact that the difficulty of a course can be different for scratch and bogey golfers?

A course with a SSS lower than par (ie. "easy for scratch golfers") isn't necessarly also easy for bogey golfers - in which case it may very well have a low course rating but a relatively high slope rating. I'm very much hoping this will be the case on my home course, which has a ridiculously low SSS (mainly because it's short) but is very tricky for handicap golfers.
		
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Indeed! But, as I stated, *I* don't know of any where SSS is more than 1 less than Par (I meant to include that concept in the post you quoted, but apparently didn't! - it should have read 'much less than...). I have heard of quite a few older ones in Scotland that are now surrounded by housing and can't expand. I thought the pretty short, but lovely, East Berks might be one locally, but CSS is actually Par +2 - explained by some pretty smart design!

Oh and to answer your 1st question....Absolutely! That's the whole principle!


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Dasit said:



			my course rating is 129.

I am a 12 handicap and it says I should be a 14 at my course!

Does that mean my course is harder than average?
		
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No. The 129 is the slope which simply indicates that the course is considered to be relatively more difficult for a bogey player than a scratch player. 
Your Course Rating is the replacement for the SSS. ie the number of strokes a scratch player is expected to take. You are expected to round in 14 as opposed to 12


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Your handicap index is your handicap index regardless of where you are and which tees you are playing. Essentially it is the equivalent of your exact CONGU handicap.

You simply plug your index (9.5) into the formula/calculator and that is your Course Handicap

So for BD it is 11 and ME it is 10. The actual calculation result is rounded.  11.18 & 10.34
		
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But his *Index* (a Slope term) *isn't 9.5*! 9.5 is his *Congu Handicap*! The two values/metrics are not iactually comparable, let alone nterchangeable - except (maybe) for Scratch players! And that 'maybe' is because of the completely different method of calculating them!

But in order to simplify things, that's why I faffed about with the Calculator to get the first Index that would result in 'cap being 10 at ME - just as 9.5 is the first value that does.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Dasit said:



			Ok thanks.

Par 71. USGA Course rating 70.2. Slope rating 129 and bogey rating 94.

I am going to do some reading up as quite interested to understand fully what it all means
		
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That means the scratch player is 'expected' to go round in 70 and the bogey player (20 +/-) in 94


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But his *Index* (a Slope term) isn't 9.5! 9.5 is his *Congu Handicap*! And

That's why I faffed about with the Calculator to get the first Index that would result in 'cap being 10 at ME - just as 9.5 is the first value that does.

You are using an assumption that *Congu Handicap = Slope Index (?)*, something tat is very rarely the case (only likely for players near Scratch).
		
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DRW is in the UK so has (I assume) an Exact CONGU Handicap.

The correct terms in the USGA system are
1) Course related - Course Rating, Bogey Rating and Slope Rating
2) Player related - Handicap Index and Course Handicap

Course Rating is loosely CONGU SSS
Handicap Index - Exact Handicap
Course Handicap - Playing Handicap _(with adjustment for Slope)_

I understand that it is expected that a CONGU handicap will be very close to the resultant Handicap Index when all the machinations have been completed.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Isn't the point of the slope rating to take account of the fact that the difficulty of a course can be different for scratch and bogey golfers?
		
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Indeed it is. Courses are rated (for Slope) for 2 sets of players....Scratch, which produces the Rating - pretty much equivalent to Congu's SSS - and for projected scores of a 'Bogey' golfer (18-capper-ish in Congu). 


cliveb said:



			A course with a SSS lower than par (ie. "easy for scratch golfers") isn't necessarly also easy for bogey golfers - in which case it may very well have a low course rating but a relatively high slope rating. I'm very much hoping this will be the case on my home course, which has a ridiculously low SSS (mainly because it's short) but is very tricky for handicap golfers.
		
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That may or may not end up being the case. Each course is likely to be different.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

Dasit said:



			I am going to do some reading up as quite interested to understand fully what it all means
		
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Here is a pretty good layman's explanation. It's not 100% but easier to get to grips with than the USGA manuals

http://www.leaderboard.com/abcs.htm


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			DRW is in the UK so has (I assume) an Exact CONGU Handicap.

The correct terms in the USGA system are
1) Course related - Course Rating, Bogey Rating and Slope Rating
2) Player related - Handicap Index and Course Handicap

*I understand that it is expected that a CONGU handicap will be very close to the resultant Handicap Index when all the machinations have been completed.*

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I thought you may have made that assumption! My (fairly considerable, as I've played in NZ that operates Slope) experience of Slope vs Congu differs from that expectation! Handicap Index is invariably lower than Congu Handicap!

However, it should only be a short time (say 6 months depending on how often individuals play) before the differences are eliminated.


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

Interesting thread...

So, my home course is sloped 137 off the whites and 130 off the yellows. My exact handicap is 9.3, and when I input this into the USGA course handicap calculator I get 11 shots for both tees!

So there is an overlap.

Why would I then play off the whites when I get the same number of shots off the yellows (if I had the choice and wanted to score well)

The SSS is 2 shots different between the tees.

I understand the theory but doesnâ€™t make sense in practice


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## louise_a (May 20, 2019)

Your Handicap index will not be based on your own course slope it will be based on 113, so you cannot use your existing handicap to calculate anything!


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

louise_a said:



			Your Handicap index will not be based on your own course slope it will be based on 113, so you cannot use your existing handicap to calculate anything!
		
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Can you explain a bit more, Iâ€™m not following. What handicap would I input?


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## duncan mackie (May 20, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			Interesting thread...

So, my home course is sloped 137 off the whites and 130 off the yellows. My exact handicap is 9.3, and when I input this into the USGA course handicap calculator I get 11 shots for both tees!

So there is an overlap.

Why would I then play off the whites when I get the same number of shots off the yellows (if I had the choice and wanted to score well)

The SSS is 2 shots different between the tees.

I understand the theory but doesnâ€™t make sense in practice
		
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Because you also have to take into account the course rating of the tees used as well....in most cases they will closely match the existing SSS.


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Because you also have to take into account the course rating of the tees used as well....in most cases they will closely match the existing SSS.
		
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This is true. The course ratings for both sets of tees are very close to the current SSS.

But then for the actual course (playing) handicap from which I calculate my stableford points on will be the same.

Am I missing something..?


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## Captainron (May 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I have absolutely no idea what any of this means ðŸ˜‚
		
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Some courses are hillier than others ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			Interesting thread...

So, my home course is sloped 137 off the whites and 130 off the yellows. My exact handicap is 9.3, and when I input this into the USGA course handicap calculator I get 11 shots for both tees!

So there is an overlap.

Why would I then play off the whites when I get the same number of shots off the yellows (if I had the choice and wanted to score well)

The SSS is 2 shots different between the tees.

I understand the theory but doesnâ€™t make sense in practice
		
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Rounding is one culprit. Whites = 11.27 yellows = 10.69
You haven't said what the Course Ratings (SSS) are.

But the system is expecting you as a 9 capper to play to the same net differential (ie 11) on both tees because the yellows are *relatively* easier for you vs a scratch player


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## User20204 (May 20, 2019)

_<reading this trying so very hard to understand it but just not getting any of it>_


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Rounding is one culprit. Whites = 11.27 yellows = 10.69
You haven't said what the Course Ratings (SSS) are.

But the system is expecting you as a 9 capper to play to the same net differential (ie 11) on both tees because the yellows are *relatively* easier for you vs a scratch player
		
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Whites: course rating 73.6 (slope 137). Current SSS: 74
Yellows: course rating 71.9 (slope 130). Current SSS: 72

ðŸ‘


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## duncan mackie (May 20, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			This is true. The course ratings for both sets of tees are very close to the current SSS.

But then for the actual course (playing) handicap from which I calculate my stableford points on will be the same.

Am I missing something..?
		
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Only that for handicapping you will be referencing your differential based on the relationship between par and the course ratings in exactly the same way as currently.
The only difference is in any tweaking of the handicap for the slope - in your case with 130 and 137 it's simply saying that there is an additional difficulty for the bogey golfer across the 2 tees for the bogey golfer - but it's not that great eg. a shot at 18.


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Only that for handicapping you will be referencing your differential based on the relationship between par and the course ratings in exactly the same way as currently.
The only difference is in any tweaking of the handicap for the slope - in your case with 130 and 137 it's simply saying that there is an additional difficulty for the bogey golfer across the 2 tees for the bogey golfer - but it's not that great eg. a shot at 18.
		
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Thanks. Sorry to go on... but

So if Iâ€™m playing a stableford comp then Iâ€™d be getting 11 shots on both tees..? Or for a medal my net score would be my gross minus 11..?

For handicap it would only count if my score is one of the best 8 of my last 20 played or submitted..?


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## louise_a (May 20, 2019)

I have gone back through my last 20 scores and picked out the best 8 gross scores, the average score is 83.1, the course rating is 73.1 so my average gross differential is exactly 11.0. My course is rated 129, so the 11 must be multiplied by 113/129 to get my handicap index, which comes out at 9.6.


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## User20204 (May 20, 2019)

louise_a said:



			I have gone back through my last 20 scores and picked out the best 8 gross scores, the average score is 83.1, the course rating is 73.1 so my average gross differential is exactly 11.0. My course is rated 129, so the 11 must be multiplied by 113/129 to get my handicap index, which comes out at 9.6.
		
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I'm guessing they were all off of the same tees ? It's difficult for me to do that as we regularly play from 3 different tees, I've also got 5 x NR in my last 20


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm guessing they were all off of the same tees ? It's difficult for me to do that as we regularly play from 3 different tees.
		
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Tees are taken into account


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Tees are taken into account
		
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How..? Is each individual score (from the 8) multiplied by the slope differential for the tee that it was played from..?

So for me. I shoot a gross 84 from the white tees. My handicap score would be 8.6:

84 - 73.6 (course rating) = 10.4 x (113 / 137 (slope) ) = 8.6


And... I seem to remember reading that your average of 8 rounds is multiplied by 96%. Just to confuse things.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2019)

I'm afraid I don't know the details of the algorithm and believe there is a deal of tuning. But I hope to know more later.

But I can't really get excited about it. How many players' handicaps are accurate to 1 or 2 strokes anyway?


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## User20204 (May 20, 2019)

rulefan said:



			How many players' handicaps are accurate to 1 or 2 strokes anyway?
		
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It's interesting reading you guys comments saying there won't be too much difference, yet it's my understanding (coming from others I have to admit) that those with a WHS in the states are much lower than they would ever likely to have if they played over here. I say that coming from people I know who have played with or caddied for US golfers over here.


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## louise_a (May 20, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			How..? Is each individual score (from the 8) multiplied by the slope differential for the tee that it was played from..?

So for me. I shoot a gross 84 from the white tees. My handicap score would be 8.6:

84 - 73.6 (course rating) = 10.4 x (113 / 137 (slope) ) = 8.6


And... I seem to remember reading that your average of 8 rounds is multiplied by 96%. Just to confuse things.
		
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When the system is in place, each score will be calculated back to the 113 rating, so it doesn't matter what the slope rating for the course/tees you played on are.


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## cliveb (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! But, as I stated, *I* don't know of any where SSS is more than 1 less than Par ...
		
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The SSS at my home course is 2 under par from the white tees and 3 under from the yellows.
For sure you certainly would expect a scratch golfer to have a few birdies, but for the handicap golfer it's a bit intimidating to know you are effectively 2 or 3 over before you've even hit your first shot!


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## OLgolfer (May 20, 2019)

louise_a said:



			When the system is in place, each score will be calculated back to the 113 rating, so it doesn't matter what the slope rating for the course/tees you played on are.
		
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So my maths is correct..?


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## Wolf (May 20, 2019)

Not sure how accurate it is but using the USGA link Pro ides earlier in this thread my course is:

Par 72, SSS 72
Slope 126, bogey rating 95.4

By those number on the calculator I get an extra shot. 
Still no idea how it all works though...


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## Aussie Swinger (May 21, 2019)

Ok ladies and gents, the Australian system is pretty much closely aligned to how the WHS is going to work for you back in the UK. For the insomniacs amoungst you, here is a link that gives you the best chance of understanding how the WHS is going to affect you and some explanation.

www.golf.org.au/handicappingandcourserating 

Happy reading.
Long and short Iâ€™ve found since moving to Aus, your handicap wonâ€™t change much from what it was. You will probably end up getting two shots extra at really tough courses.dont worry about working it out. The scorecards are all automated and gives you the handicap for the day on the course you are playing....simples

Please donâ€™t come back with Aus and Whs will be different, I give you it as an example of ONLY HOW IT WILL ROUGHLY WORK....


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Ok ladies and gents, the Australian system is pretty much closely aligned to how the WHS is going to work for you back in the UK. For the insomniacs amoungst you, here is a link that gives you the best chance of understanding how the WHS is going to affect you and some explanation.

www.golf.org.au/handicappingandcourserating 

Happy reading.
Long and short Iâ€™ve found since moving to Aus, your handicap wonâ€™t change much from what it was. You will probably end up getting two shots extra at really tough courses.dont worry about working it out. The scorecards are all automated and gives you the handicap for the day on the course you are playing....simples

Please donâ€™t come back with Aus and Whs will be different, I give you it as an example of ONLY HOW IT WILL ROUGHLY WORK....
		
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My only observation on  this is that the additional 2 shots will vary significantly across the range of handicaps - not everyone reading this is an 18 handicapper (for which that statement is reasonably  indicative).


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Ok ladies and gents, the Australian system is pretty much closely aligned to how the WHS is going to work for you back in the UK. For the insomniacs amoungst you, here is a link that gives you the best chance of understanding how the WHS is going to affect you and some explanation.

www.golf.org.au/handicappingandcourserating 

Happy reading.
Long and short Iâ€™ve found since moving to Aus, your handicap wonâ€™t change much from what it was. You will probably end up getting two shots extra at really tough courses.dont worry about working it out. The scorecards are all automated and gives you the handicap for the day on the course you are playing....simples

Please donâ€™t come back with Aus and Whs will be different, I give you it as an example of ONLY HOW IT WILL ROUGHLY WORK....
		
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This is really useful, especially the how to calculate handicap section.

If Iâ€™m reading correctly, for handicap purpose, each individual gross score is adjusted to account for course rating and slope for the tees played.

Iâ€™m looking forward to this system being implemented. Much better than the 0.1 and buffers we currently have. It will hopefully be a truer reflection of our current playing ability and there will be less vanity handicaps. 

And for someone like me who plays maybe 1 comp a month, being able to hand in scores for handicap from other courses is a huge step forward.


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## Hovisbap (May 21, 2019)

Living in Spain, I have always used the slope of the courses I play to adjust my official handicap to match the local players, I think it's a great system.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's interesting reading you guys comments saying there won't be too much difference, yet it's my understanding (coming from others I have to admit) that those with a WHS in the states are much lower than they would ever likely to have if they played over here. I say that coming from people I know who have played with or caddied for US golfers over here.
		
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i get your point and agree, but they also count every score and up until recently could put a card in playing on  their own among other things different to what we do and will be doing.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2019)

cliveb said:



			The SSS at my home course is 2 under par from the white tees and 3 under from the yellows.
For sure you certainly would expect a scratch golfer to have a few birdies, but for the handicap golfer it's a bit intimidating to know you are effectively 2 or 3 over before you've even hit your first shot!
		
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but you are forgetting the reason the SSS is low its not just easier for a scratch player, its everyone. The course close to where i live, short parkland, par 69 SSS 68, little or no rough, wide open fairways, no forced carries and pretty short, stableford scores are always mid 40 (from higher handicaps) and low 60 net scores every week. if it was as hard as you say the CSS would be going up every week?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2019)

Reading the various posts the one downside of this that I can see is that suddenly it becomes very complicated, you will need to use a phone app or some other electronic device to establish what your h/c is now when you play somewhere. I appreciate that it helps transfer your h/c better around courses but for techno phobes, a lot of older golfers, or the casual golfer the system has suddenly become more difficult. 

Hopefully putting it into practice is far more simple than how it looks written down. If we on here are struggling, and by the nature of being on this forum we are golf nerds, then how will the regular golfer cope?


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Reading the various posts the one downside of this that I can see is that suddenly it becomes very complicated, you will need to use a phone app or some other electronic device to establish what your h/c is now when you play somewhere. I appreciate that it helps transfer your h/c better around courses but for techno phobes, a lot of older golfers, or the casual golfer the system has suddenly become more difficult.

Hopefully putting it into practice is far more simple than how it looks written down. If we on here are struggling, and by the nature of being on this forum we are golf nerds, then how will the regular golfer cope?
		
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You only need to know your current handicap index....exactly the same as currently when you need to know your playing handicap.

The one difference is that you need to convert this to a playing handicap for the course and tees you are using - for most this will become as regular as relating your score to the known SSS of the course and tees you frequently play but it's still a step. Every course will have a table for you to use; many, many apps will be available to do the job for you if you prefer it that way.


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## Foxholer (May 21, 2019)

cliveb said:



			The SSS at my home course is 2 under par from the white tees and 3 under from the yellows.
For sure you certainly would expect a scratch golfer to have a few birdies, but for the handicap golfer it's a bit intimidating to know you are effectively 2 or 3 over before you've even hit your first shot!
		
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That is a slightly daft approach to take - though perhaps understandable - to a degree!

If someone expressed that attitude, I'd simply ask 'Where did you get your handicap?' If, as would generally be the case, the answer was 'Here', then I'd suggest they consider how that happened on a course they believe is difficult to score well on! So much of Golf is attitude/approach/mindset! And if you go chasing birdies, they have a tendency to be hard to get!


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## Hovisbap (May 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Reading the various posts the one downside of this that I can see is that suddenly it becomes very complicated, you will need to use a phone app or some other electronic device to establish what your h/c is now when you play somewhere. I appreciate that it helps transfer your h/c better around courses but for techno phobes, a lot of older golfers, or the casual golfer the system has suddenly become more difficult.

Hopefully putting it into practice is far more simple than how it looks written down. If we on here are struggling, and by the nature of being on this forum we are golf nerds, then how will the regular golfer cope?
		
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No need for phones, just pick up the slope rating sheet from the office


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That is a slightly daft approach to take - though perhaps understandable - to a degree!

If someone expressed that attitude, I'd simply ask 'Where did you get your handicap?' If, as would generally be the case, the answer was 'Here', then I'd suggest they consider how that happened on a course they believe is difficult to score well on! So much of Golf is attitude/approach/mindset! And if you go chasing birdies, they have a tendency to be hard to get!
		
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Yes, but you know only to well that the underlying issue (an inherent belief that the target is par) will never go away for the vast majority of players.
It's the 'in your face' reference point and is as automatic as assuming 36 stableford points is playing to your handicap (see the 26 billion posts that make that assumption on there every year for proof...).
It's all in the mind, it's flawed, but it's powerful


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			You only need to know your current handicap index....exactly the same as currently when you need to know your playing handicap.

The one difference is that you need to convert this to a playing handicap for the course and tees you are using - for most this will become as regular as relating your score to the known SSS of the course and tees you frequently play but it's still a step. Every course will have a table for you to use; many, many apps will be available to do the job for you if you prefer it that way.
		
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I understand but it is that extra conversion that complicates. I have to be honest, I don't think I have ever heard golfers talk about SSS outside of this forum. Most people turn up, mark their h/c on the card, play, record their score and away they go. Bar chat is never about SSS or CSS, but maybe that is just the circles I play in 

I guess use of the table will ultimately be like when comps give you 90% of h/c, 7/8 etc so I guess we will get used to doing that. I'm pleased I follow this forum as it should have sunk in by the time the system is in place.

Hovisbap, thanks for the post. 

I should add, I fully understand why the system has been brought in and that slope will be a good thing. It is just the enacting it that is not so simple.


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## rulefan (May 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bar chat is never about SSS or CSS, but maybe that is just the circles I play in 

Click to expand...

That is a little surprising as the CSS is used to determine any handicap adjustment. This will go of course. Handicaps will be adjusted on the basis of how you played, not everyone else.


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## rulefan (May 21, 2019)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Ok ladies and gents, the Australian system is pretty much closely aligned to how the WHS is going to work for you back in the UK. For the insomniacs amoungst you, here is a link that gives you the best chance of understanding how the WHS is going to affect you and some explanation.

www.golf.org.au/handicappingandcourserating

Happy reading.
		
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For those reading the section on Slope, note these references:
GA Handicap = Handicap Index
Daily Handicap = Course Handicap


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## jim8flog (May 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! But, as I stated, *I* don't know of any where SSS is more than 1 less than Par (I meant to include that concept in the post you quoted, but apparently didn't! - it should have read 'much less than...). I have heard of quite a few older ones in Scotland that are now surrounded by housing and can't expand. I thought the pretty short, but lovely, East Berks might be one locally, but CSS is actually Par +2 - explained by some pretty smart design!

Oh and to answer your 1st question....Absolutely! That's the whole principle!
		
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Where I play the SSS is 3 under the par. 68/71 (yellow Tees) this is mainly because our 3 par 5s are par rated on difficulty rather than distance.

On our 9 hole course the SSS is 4 under the Par 64/68.


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## rulefan (May 21, 2019)

As I've said before. Par has little to to with SSS rating (ie difficulty).

18 x 300 yard par 4s length 5400 = par 72 (SSS 66ish)
18 x 400 yard par 4s length 7200 = par 72 (SSS 74ish)


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## jim8flog (May 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand but it is that extra conversion that complicates. I have to be honest, I don't think I have ever heard golfers talk about SSS outside of this forum. Most people turn up, mark their h/c on the card, play, record their score and away they go. Bar chat is never about SSS or CSS, but maybe that is just the circles I play in 

I guess use of the table will ultimately be like when comps give you 90% of h/c, 7/8 etc so I guess we will get used to doing that. I'm pleased I follow this forum as it should have sunk in by the time the system is in place.

Hovisbap, thanks for the post.

I should add, I fully understand why the system has been brought in and that slope will be a good thing. It is just the enacting it that is not so simple.
		
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Yes it is one of the problems - getting players to understand SSS/CSS. I even play in one swindle where you get a 2 shot cut for playing to your handicap because the organiser does not understand the principle.


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Yes, but you know only to well that the underlying issue (an inherent belief that the target is par) will never go away for the vast majority of players.
It's the 'in your face' reference point and is as automatic as assuming 36 stableford points is playing to your handicap (see the 26 billion posts that make that assumption on there every year for proof...).
It's all in the mind, it's flawed, but it's powerful
		
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This is a good point. 

Majority of weekend or casual golfers do not know (or care) about SSS and CSS. They simply think shooting 36 points = I played to my handicap. My whole group of mates are like this, and I have endless arguments with them about this. With these people (dare i say who are the majority of golfers?), the new system will make very little difference, other than they might choose to learn a little more as they may get some more shots based on the slope/course handicap.

They will still go out and try to shoot 36 points...


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2019)

rulefan said:



			That is a little surprising as the CSS is used to determine any handicap adjustment. This will go of course. Handicaps will be adjusted on the basis of how you played, not everyone else.
		
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Most just want to play, see what their score is at the end of the round, will they win any money? They would like a cut but don't sit and work out whether it will happen. They wait for the update from HDID and have no interest in how it changes, just does it change? Reluefan, you are one of the committed ones, far more of the turn up and play (nothing wrong with that as it largely includes me as well)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2019)

98% of club golfers donâ€™t care about SSS or CSS or slope etc - they know their HC , they turn up , play put their card in then wait for the results and any HC alteration 

Same with away comps - enter with CDH which will have your up to date HC - play and then await the results 

It will be the same with the new system - people will just play and see where they come and if there is a HC change , same when they go to Away comps 

People already playing in swindles with different HC systems etc

This will just be a new one which I suspect will reduce HC slightly compared to the current system - and people will just carry on regardless


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Most just want to play, see what their score is at the end of the round, will they win any money? They would like a cut but don't sit and work out whether it will happen. They wait for the update from HDID and have no interest in how it changes, just does it change? Reluefan, you are one of the committed ones, far more of the turn up and play (nothing wrong with that as it largely includes me as well)
		
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I'm hoping (and expect) that under the new system you simply turn up, work out what your course handicap is for that day based on the tees you are playing... then just play and submit your score as usual. The behind the scenes stuff will take care of everything else and the next day you'll know how your handicap has changed.

So all I can see, is there is 1 extra step needed which is to work out your course handicap for the day. Which, as has been mentioned before, is as easy as looking at a chart or using an app. Very very simple.


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Ok ladies and gents, the Australian system is pretty much closely aligned to how the WHS is going to work for you back in the UK. For the insomniacs amoungst you, here is a link that gives you the best chance of understanding how the WHS is going to affect you and some explanation.

www.golf.org.au/handicappingandcourserating 

Happy reading.
Long and short Iâ€™ve found since moving to Aus, your handicap wonâ€™t change much from what it was. You will probably end up getting two shots extra at really tough courses.dont worry about working it out. The scorecards are all automated and gives you the handicap for the day on the course you are playing....simples

Please donâ€™t come back with Aus and Whs will be different, I give you it as an example of ONLY HOW IT WILL ROUGHLY WORK....
		
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I've gone back and looked at my comps and worked out my new handicap under the new system (I've used the basis from the Aussie guide above so it won't be completely accurate), but my new HANDICAP INDEX would be 8.6. My current exact is 9.3.


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			I've gone back and looked at my comps and worked out my new handicap under the new system (I've used the basis from the Aussie guide above so it won't be completely accurate), but my new HANDICAP INDEX would be 8.6. My current exact is 9.3.
		
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And on both your white and yellows that would equate to a playing handicap of 10...so the world isn't going to go through any shattering events soon ðŸ¤”


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			And on both your white and yellows that would equate to a playing handicap of 10...so the world isn't going to go through any shattering events soon ðŸ¤”
		
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Not at all. Now I'm armed with a little knowledge to bore my group of mates with


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

Hovisbap said:



			No need for phones, just pick up the slope rating sheet from the office
		
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I spend a fair bit of time in Spain with the in-laws living there and they have exactly this at their club, which is soo simple, and it also allows them to do multi tee comps which is also great.

However, I guess the Spanish calculate the playing handicap differently to the USGA? If I were to play off your White tees at Peralada with my exact handicap of 9.3, I would get 13 shots. However, if I use the USGA calculator with your white tee slope of 137 and my exact of 9.3, I would only get 11 shots.

Anyone know why this is, or the differences between Spanish slope? (by the way, this is also the same if I use the slope chart for my in-laws club in spain).

Sorry everyone for going into too much detail on this thread...


*EDIT:* I've found the answer. The spanish system adds an additional step, which is to adjust your playing handicap further by taking account for the course rating compared to par. So your playing handicap is first adjusted based on slope (113/course slope), then... adjusted again by taking the course rating and subtracting the par.


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

OLgolfer said:



			I spend a fair bit of time in Spain with the in-laws living there and they have exactly this at their club, which is soo simple, and it also allows them to do multi tee comps which is also great.

However, I guess the Spanish calculate the playing handicap differently to the USGA? If I were to play off your White tees at Peralada with my exact handicap of 9.3, I would get 13 shots. However, if I use the USGA calculator with your white tee slope of 137 and my exact of 9.3, I would only get 11 shots.

Anyone know why this is, or the differences between Spanish slope? (by the way, this is also the same if I use the slope chart for my in-laws club in spain).

Sorry everyone for going into too much detail on this thread...
		
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I'm guessing but suspect that table incorporates the underlying course ratings as well so that it gives you a final directly comparative net score from each tee?


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## User20204 (May 21, 2019)

Am I the only one playing the game trying to be as good as I can be i.e. as low a handicap as possible getting as little shots as possible ??

If seems reading  posts folk are desperate to get more strokes.


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Am I the only one playing the game trying to be as good as I can be i.e. as low a handicap as possible getting as little shots as possible ??

If seems reading  posts folk are desperate to get more strokes.
		
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Don't see a single post that I can read that into...


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## User20204 (May 21, 2019)

Must just be me then haha.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Don't see a single post that I can read that into...
		
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Agree, I think we are all just trying to work it out, get our heads around it. h/caps are being mentioned as a way of sorting out how it affects each individual, nothing more sinister


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## OLgolfer (May 21, 2019)

if trying to figure out how it all works = desperate for more strokes, then I'm 100% guilty


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## cliveb (May 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but you are forgetting the reason the SSS is low its not just easier for a scratch player, its everyone.
		
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You seem to be saying that SSS is indicative of difficulty across the board, and there is no need to distinguish degree of difficulty for scratch versus bogey golfers. Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, then can I ask what you think is the purpose of slope rating - surely all you need is the CR?


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

cliveb said:



			You seem to be saying that SSS is indicative of difficulty across the board, and there is no need to distinguish degree of difficulty for scratch versus bogey golfers. Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, then can I ask what you think is the purpose of slope rating - surely all you need is the CR?
		
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No - he is saying that a low SSS on an 18 hole course is normally indicative of a course that most golfers will find relatively easy to score on in absolute terms ie you would expect to score low numbers, regardless of par.
The exception being courses with par lower than the low SSS - which is rare, but does happen!
The purpose of the slope rating is to fine tune handicaps for any relative differences in how the course plays for different underlying capabilities in practice. Again generally, as the course rating (SSS or USGA) reduces you will tend to get a reduction in the slope rating. But it doesn't always work that way.


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## cliveb (May 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			No - he is saying that a low SSS on an 18 hole course is normally indicative of a course that most golfers will find relatively easy to score on in absolute terms ie you would expect to score low numbers, regardless of par.
		
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OK, fair point - to a certain extent, but see caveat below...


duncan mackie said:



			The purpose of the slope rating is to fine tune handicaps for any relative differences in how the course plays for different underlying capabilities in practice. Again generally, as the course rating (SSS or USGA) reduces you will tend to get a reduction in the slope rating. But it doesn't always work that way.
		
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This is why I like the idea of slope rating. SSS alone is a blunt instrument. With the new WHS, we finally have a mechanism that can cope with a course that, while being easy for the scratch golfer, might be relatively harder for the bogey golfer.


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## rulefan (May 21, 2019)

I agree. SSS is only a measure of the difficulty for a scratch player. It says little about the relative or actual difficulty for the bogey (or any other player). But because of the relative weightings given to length and obstacles, as Duncan says, slope very rarely goes up when the CR goes down.


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## duncan mackie (May 21, 2019)

cliveb said:



			This is why I like the idea of slope rating. SSS alone is a blunt instrument.
With the new WHS, we finally have a mechanism that can cope with a course that, while being easy for the scratch golfer, might be relatively harder for the bogey golfer.
		
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Again I think here is the difference in perspective.

From my perspective, and tied in with the aspects Patrick seems to me making...

SSS is only a blunt instrument for anyone other than a scratch golfer
Slope can, and does, also accomadate those courses that are less challenging for the bogey golfer to play,  but relatively more difficult for the scratch player. Edit - however the maximum slope is level ie a rating of 113, which basically means that all players playing handicaps will equal their handicap index exactly.
It's not all one way.
It is also relevant to make the point that far more scratch players have playing charecteristics in line with the course rating assumptions than bogey golfer - as clearly set out on here most forum bogey golfers below the age of 50 hit the ball further than the average scratch player, can mentally tune out water or other nasty issues and have never needed a putting lesson (let alone their superb short games based on the linear method...). These guys are going to clean up on the tougher slope rated courses and the additional strokes they will get in match play will make them invincible...ðŸ˜Ž


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## rulefan (May 21, 2019)

It's noticeable that when I describe how course rating/slope works to fellow club members and mention the standard shot lengths for bogey players. I get a roar of "But Joe (or whoever) plays off 24 and hit his drive over 300 yards!"


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2019)

cliveb said:



			You seem to be saying that SSS is indicative of difficulty across the board, and there is no need to distinguish degree of difficulty for scratch versus bogey golfers. Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, then can I ask what you think is the purpose of slope rating - surely all you need is the CR?
		
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so you CSS never comes out the same as the SSS then?


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## User20204 (May 21, 2019)

Does weather conditions effect said slope ? Reason I ask is we've had a fair bit of rain recently and our course is playing quite long or longer I should say and if it does effect it, how does it know the weather is rubbish


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## Slab (May 22, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			No - he is saying that a low SSS on an 18 hole course is normally indicative of a course that most golfers will find relatively easy to score on in absolute terms ie you would expect to score low numbers, regardless of par.
*The exception being courses with par lower than the low SSS - which is rare, but does happen!*
The purpose of the slope rating is to fine tune handicaps for any relative differences in how the course plays for different underlying capabilities in practice. Again generally, as the course rating (SSS or USGA) reduces you will tend to get a reduction in the slope rating. But it doesn't always work that way.
		
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Sorry bit off topic, but is there a type of course where this would typically be the case? 
I ask because several courses here have a par of 72 and an SSS rating 3-4 shots higher at 75/76 (but only from the back tees) other tee course rating is more in line with par or slightly below


Edit; I might be answering the question here. I see slope ratings from these tees of 145, 149 even as high as 155 (whatâ€™s the limit?) 
Iâ€™ve never played from these tees so never really paid any attention to it, so I'm guessing it would be because they happen to have a set of tees that makes the course play crazy long, tough or both?


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## rulefan (May 22, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Does weather conditions effect said slope ? Reason I ask is we've had a fair bit of rain recently and our course is playing quite long or longer I should say and if it does effect it, how does it know the weather is rubbish 

Click to expand...

No.
Courses are rated for normal mid season conditions.
With CONGU, the actual playing conditions will be reflected in the Competition Scratch Score (CSS), which is an adjustment to the SSS.
With the WHS, there is a similar function based on all scores returned on that day


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## rulefan (May 22, 2019)

Slab said:



			Sorry bit off topic, but is there a type of course where this would typically be the case?
I ask because several courses here have a par of 72 and an SSS rating 3-4 shots higher at 75/76 (but only from the back tees) other tee course rating is more in line with par or slightly below


Edit; I might be answering the question here. I see slope ratings from these tees of 145, 149 even as high as 155 (whatâ€™s the limit?)
Iâ€™ve never played from these tees so never really paid any attention to it, so I'm guessing it would be because they happen to have a set of tees that makes the course play crazy long, tough or both?
		
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As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope. 
Slope simply indicates the relative difficulty playing from that set of tees for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.
155 is the max.

Incidentally, where have you seen a SSS of 76 or slope of 155?

Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70


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## cliveb (May 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so you CSS never comes out the same as the SSS then?
		
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Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?


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## cliveb (May 22, 2019)

rulefan said:



			As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope.
...
Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70

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So is there any reason why the par at Bethpage is relevant to its CR and slope?


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## patricks148 (May 22, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?
		
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So you are saying the the CSS only sometimes matches the SSS and the rest of the time its above?

if no one ever made buffer and the SSS was wrong then surly the club would get it re rated?

the whole Scratch golfer thing is only an set of assessments and assumptions of holes and how the holes would be played by a SG many of these would also apply to a handicap golfer. the slope and CR must still be made with the same set off assumptions


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## Slab (May 22, 2019)

rulefan said:



			As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope.
Slope simply indicates the relative difficulty playing from that set of tees for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.
155 is the max.

*Incidentally, where have you seen a SSS of 76 or slope of 155?*

Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70
		
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Anahita  - SSS 76.3 Slope 139
Heritage - SSS 75 Slope 149
Ile Aux Cerfs - SSS 75 Slope 155
Tamarina â€“ SSS 75.2 Slope 150?
(all par 72)

Stress again this is the back tees only (and never played from there, the highest Slope I think Iâ€™ve played is one tee forward at Ile Aux Cerfs & Heritage both have slope of 142 from there)
Couple of the above just exceed 7,500yrds though. Coincidentally I'm playing Heritage this weekend but probably only from the 133 slope tee which is more than plenty for me

edit: I see Tamarina just got rating redone after a few changes, until last year it was SSS 77.5 Slope 150 so I guess they made it a bit more playable!


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## cliveb (May 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So you are saying the the CSS only sometimes matches the SSS and the rest of the time its above?
		
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As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?


patricks148 said:



			if no one ever made buffer and the SSS was wrong then surly the club would get it re rated
		
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Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot


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## patricks148 (May 22, 2019)

cliveb said:



			As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?

Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot
		
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the odd change in CSS happens at all clubs, we rarely go below 73 on occasion it goes to 75 and we have a few times its RO, but they would usually relate to weather conditions i would say, can't think of a single occasion ours has gone up on a sunny warm day with no wind.

when i put my handicap in the USGA calculator it came out at 5 one above what it is and in line with what our SSS at the moment with the buffer. if i were to go to your club under the new WHS i suspect i would have to play off a lower handicap, which still says to me its an easier course


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## duncan mackie (May 22, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?
		
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Those proportions look entirely normal for that data.
It's an irrelevant piece of data for handicapping though!
What you need to look at is the proportion of players scoring to their buffer - very roughly the normal range for that is between 25% and 50% (at which CSS = SSS)
But all that's getting off track....your course slope rating will tell all.


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## rulefan (May 22, 2019)

cliveb said:



			So is there any reason why the par at Bethpage is relevant to its CR and slope?
		
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That is my point. If you read my earlier posts you will note that I have maintained that par tells you nothing about difficulty.


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## rulefan (May 22, 2019)

cliveb said:



			As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?

Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot
		
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Probably because the rerating was done using the new USGA procedures, whilst the original SSS was done using the old English Golf Union procedures. They are slightly different in detail. But possibly a few tweaks to the course could have contributed.


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## 2blue (May 22, 2019)

Many thanks for everyone's in-put to this....  very informative â€¦..  I think it's a bit more clear to me now....  but tomorrow it maybe different


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## cliveb (May 22, 2019)

rulefan said:



			That is my point. If you read my earlier posts you will note that I have maintained that par tells you nothing about difficulty.
		
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Ah right. Sorry, I misinterpreted your post, thinking that you mentioned the par at Bethpage because it is relevant. But I see now that you mentioned it as an extreme example that shows it isn't.


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## rulefan (May 22, 2019)




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## 2blue (May 23, 2019)

2blue said:



			I'm sure we're all interested to see how other courses compare, so if you have your details please share. 
I've also attached a Slope Table but as I don't know if these are Standardised items they maybe helpful but not absolutely accurate. Perhaps others can enlighten us 

View attachment 27347

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Was just explaining to my playing partners today how our Ladies Red-tee is tougher than the Men's Blues. (see attachment)
Is this the same at anyone else's course?
Very tough for them it would appear.
You certainly wouldn't get many of our men happy to play every round off the Blues. In fact some won't even play on those days.
No wonder we have problems retaining lady members!! & why they do well at away courses....  strong h/caps!!


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## duncan mackie (May 23, 2019)

2blue said:



			Was just explaining to my playing partners today how our Ladies Red-tee is tougher than the Men's Blues. (see attachment)
Is this the same at anyone else's course?
Very tough for them it would appear.
You certainly wouldn't get many of our men happy to play every round off the Blues. In fact some won't even play on those days.
No wonder we have problems retaining lady members!! & why they do well at away courses....  strong h/caps!!
		
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I take it that the ratings shown are for Ladies?  That's pretty normal. We have tees rated for both and the difference is normally about 5 ie it's rated 73 for the ladies and 68 for the men (actually the red tees are a difference of 6 at ours)


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## 2blue (May 23, 2019)

Yes the rating for red is the Ladies......  same Course Rating of 72 but a much more severe Slope. Can we not compare that directly to our Men's Blue tees of 72 Course & much less Slope?


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## rulefan (May 24, 2019)

The ladies SSS/CR is not very different to the men's for the scratch player (except for the odd 629 yard 2nd hole). It's relative shortness brings the SSS down to the men's. Usually the ladies' is a few strokes higher than the men's
But the reds are relatively more difficult as handicaps go up.

As it happens I did the rating for the men's and joined the ladies team for the reds


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yes the rating for red is the Ladies......  same Course Rating of 72 but a much more severe Slope. Can we not compare that directly to our Men's Blue tees of 72 Course & much less Slope?
		
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I'm not sure what you mean by comparing!

If you had two players, one lady and one gent, both with handicap indexes of 12.0 competing in a match with the gent of your Blue and lady off Red there would be no shots given. If they had an index of 18.0 the lady would get one stroke.

For me the real comparison comes when they are both playing from the same tee....at which point you would normally see the lady getting around 5 shots. If you then use that to compare across the other tees you could argue that the men's blue tees are playing 5 strokes harder than the ladies tees (for men).


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## rulefan (May 24, 2019)

As above. If we had rated the blues for ladies the CR/SSS would probably be 3-5 strokes higher.

Oddly the Leeds Golf Centre website doesn't seem to give the course length(s)


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## 2blue (May 24, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I'm not sure what you mean by comparing!

*If you had two players, one lady and one gent, both with handicap indexes of 12.0 competing in a match with the gent of your Blue and lady off Red there would be no shots given. If they had an index of 18.0 the lady would get one stroke.*

For me the real comparison comes when they are both playing from the same tee....at which point you would normally see the lady getting around 5 shots. If you then use that to compare across the other tees you could argue that the men's blue tees are playing 5 strokes harder than the ladies tees (for men).
		
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Comparison'' may not have been the best word top use.
I was simply trying to get an idea of how difficult our course is for the ladies playing from the Reds &, above, you seem to have done that. For a 12 H/capper lady it's the same degree of difficulty as the men have when they play off the Blues...  which is only about 5 times a year!! So the 12 H/cap ladies (we may have 1 or 2) are experiencing that level of difficulty each week & the higher H/cappers even more so.
So to encourage (ie simplify the challenge) for our higher H/cap ladies & as we've got many junior girls coming through,I guess we'd need to look towards developing a shorter tee than Reds.....  is that so?


rulefan said:



			As above. If we had rated the blues for ladies the CR/SSS would probably be 3-5 strokes higher.

Oddly the Leeds Golf Centre website doesn't seem to give the course length(s)
		
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RF.... Very interesting indeed that you helped rate Wike ......  I can now see why we probs don't need the Yellows rating for the ladies but more likely a more forward one as mentioned above.....  what do you think?...  were you also asked to provide any advice regarding this? Though I think we'll need separate cards for Men & Woman


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## rulefan (May 24, 2019)

At a very rough estimate the biues would have rated 78 for the ladies !!!

We always ask clubs about any additional ratings eg yellow for ladies, reds for men or even installing additional tees. A few have put in short greens (ie colour not putting greens) which we have rated for men and ladies. We also suggest getting 9 hole ratings (just a paper excercise)


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## jim8flog (May 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			Was just explaining to my playing partners today how our Ladies Red-tee is tougher than the Men's Blues. (see attachment)
Is this the same at anyone else's course?
Very tough for them it would appear.
		
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Our ladies SSS is  2 over the par
Our men's whites is 1 under the par


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2019)

rulefan said:



			As above. If we had rated the blues for ladies the CR/SSS would probably be 3-5 strokes higher.

Oddly the Leeds Golf Centre website doesn't seem to give the course length(s)
		
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I've not seen it but based on the data presented alone I would bet on at least 5 or more likely 6....

On 2blue's other point - definitely. A set of properly placed junior tees are vital; they don't need to be rated as people quickly move through to the shorter main tees with the high handicap levels available.

We also introduced green tees last year, and they sit between red and yellow for distance.


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## rulefan (May 24, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I've not seen it but based on the data presented alone I would bet on at least 5 or more likely 6....
		
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Yes. See #127


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Yes. See #127
		
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Apologies  -  responding to your first answer I missed the follow up!
The team finished up at our course yesterday (most of the real work was done months ago but there was an issue around some plates) and I'm looking forward to the results. I have some numbers in mind...


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## rulefan (May 24, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Apologies  -  responding to your first answer I missed the follow up!
The team finished up at our course yesterday (most of the real work was done months ago but there was an issue around some plates) and I'm looking forward to the results. I have some numbers in mind...
		
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A common revisit is to check that the permanent distance tee markers are positioned sufficiently far forward of the clear ground where the teeing areas will be placed. 4 yards if I remember rightly.


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2019)

rulefan said:



			A common revisit is to check that the permanent distance tee markers are positioned sufficiently far forward of the clear ground where the teeing areas will be placed. 4 yards if I remember rightly.
		
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Yes it's now 4yds - and they had already been moved to comply ðŸ‘
In this case we had rebuilt a couple of tees, and added one new one, and their was some confusion over the plates on those when they first visited...shouldnt have happened but it did. ðŸ¤


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## IanG (May 26, 2019)

Bit late to the party but here's the ratings from our place on the new scorecards. Whites are the normal medal tees, blues the workaday gents tees, reds the traditional 'ladies' tees and the yellows are for a short 'juniors' course. Blues reds and yellows are rated for both gents and ladies so provides a comparison. Yardages in the second image.


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## duncan mackie (May 26, 2019)

IanG said:



			Bit late to the party but here's the ratings from our place on the new scorecards. Whites are the normal medal tees, blues the workaday gents tees, reds the traditional 'ladies' tees and the yellows are for a short 'juniors' course. Blues reds and yellows are rated for both gents and ladies so provides a comparison. Yardages in the second image.

View attachment 27389

View attachment 27390

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Really excellent example of a good range of tees, including multi ratings.
The underlying difference in CR across m/f of 5 for normal range yardages fits with earlier discussions - suspect if your white or blacks were rated they would be up at 6, and of course your yellows are well under normal range (but a sensible addition IMO) and reflected in only 4 difference.


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