# Abandon comp and whs



## pauljames87 (May 4, 2021)

Is there a minimum number of people for a comp to take place?

If a comp is cancelled due to lack of numbers what happens with the scorecards?

Thanks in advance


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

Are positing that some players will have started and/or finished their rounds before the cancellation?


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## pauljames87 (May 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Are positing that some players will have started and/or finished their rounds before the cancellation?
		
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Nothing posted just asking question ATM 

When we tee off at 10 there were 3 names on sheet everyone wussed out 

When we finished at half 1 still only 3 names down


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing posted just asking question ATM

When we tee off at 10 there were 3 names on sheet everyone wussed out

When we finished at half 1 still only 3 names down
		
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The competition stands with 3 players.


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## pauljames87 (May 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The competition stands with 3 players.
		
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Excellent lol joint leader ATM lol

My mate was convinced they would just call it off


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## wjemather (May 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there a minimum number of people for a comp to take place?

If a comp is cancelled due to lack of numbers what happens with the scorecards?

Thanks in advance
		
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It would be a decision for your competitions committee. Our terms of competition state that "competitions with fewer than five entrants may be cancelled".

Either way, scores still count for handicapping.


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It would be a decision for your competitions committee. Our terms of competition state that "competitions with fewer than five entrants may be cancelled".
.
		
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Does that mean before anyone has teed off or after players have started and then realised there were less than 5 going to play?


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## wjemather (May 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Does that mean before anyone has teed off or after players have started and then realised there were less than 5 going to play?
		
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They could be cancelled under this provision at any time (with entry fees refunded), but it's unlikely to ever be invoked once entrants have teed off - but the option is there.


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

wjemather said:



			They could be cancelled under this provision at any time (with entry fees refunded), but it's unlikely to ever be invoked once entrants have teed off - but the option is there.
		
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What happens to the scores of the players who have started or even finished and entered their scores?


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## wjemather (May 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			What happens to the scores of the players who have started or even finished and entered their scores?
		
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They would still be subject to the rules of handicapping, with rounds needing to be completed and scores submitted unless the course was closed.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 5, 2021)

So if a competition gets suspended due to bad weather and eventually abandoned what is the situation regarding complete and incomplete round?

I can understand all completed rounds counting for handicap but is this also true for all cards where 9 holes have been completed?


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			So if a competition gets suspended due to bad weather and eventually abandoned what is the situation regarding complete and incomplete round?

I can understand all completed rounds counting for handicap but is this also true for all cards where 9 holes have been completed?
		
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I find 2.2 somewhat ambiguous. Certainly if the comp was over 18 holes and 10 holes were completed the card must be returned (2.2a). I am not clear about 2.2b when only 9 holes have been completed when 18 were intended. Should it be returned as if for a 9 hole comp or not returned at all? 

*2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable*
_*2.2a For an 18-hole Score*
For an 18-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, a minimum of 10
holes must be played.
*2.2b For a 9-hole Score*
For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, all 9 holes must be
played. If a player has not played at least 9 holes, the score is not acceptable for
handicap purposes.

A hole is considered to have been played if it has been started._


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I find 2.2 somewhat ambiguous. Certainly if the comp was over 18 holes and 10 holes were completed the card must be returned (2.2a). I am not clear about 2.2b when only 9 holes have been completed when 18 were intended. Should it be returned as if for a 9 hole comp or not returned at all? 

*2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable*
_*2.2a For an 18-hole Score*
For an 18-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, a minimum of 10
holes must be played.
*2.2b For a 9-hole Score*
For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, all 9 holes must be
played. If a player has not played at least 9 holes, the score is not acceptable for
handicap purposes.

A hole is considered to have been played if it has been started._

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This is something I was wondering aswell 

10 holes , is that 10 scoring holes or just 10 holes 

For example Ive played 1-10 .. walked off due to Emergancy .. card handed in.. but I picked up on 2 holes meaning I scored on 8 holes 

Does that count?


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## mikejohnchapman (May 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is something I was wondering aswell

10 holes , is that 10 scoring holes or just 10 holes

For example Ive played 1-10 .. walked off due to Emergancy .. card handed in.. but I picked up on 2 holes meaning I scored on 8 holes

Does that count?
		
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If it's stableford I would think so. If medal and you indicated you had started every hole I suspect NDB would be allocated and the holes were valid.


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## wjemather (May 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is something I was wondering aswell

10 holes , is that 10 scoring holes or just 10 holes

For example Ive played 1-10 .. walked off due to Emergancy .. card handed in.. but I picked up on 2 holes meaning I scored on 8 holes

Does that count?
		
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It's 10 holes started but not necessarily (*edit) holed out, which includes any "picked-up" (recorded as net double-bogey for handicapping).


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2021)

Results are in. Looks like I won with 31 points 3 players 

However he emailed out the 30 points person won lol dunno why

The webpage says I won with 31 points 

Not surprised with our handicap sec 🤣


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## Beezerk (May 5, 2021)

Wins a win 😄


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is something I was wondering aswell

10 holes , is that 10 scoring holes or just 10 holes

For example Ive played 1-10 .. walked off due to Emergancy .. card handed in.. but I picked up on 2 holes meaning I scored on 8 holes

Does that count?
		
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See #12
_A hole is considered to have been played if it has been started._


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Wins a win 😄
		
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## mikejohnchapman (May 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I find 2.2 somewhat ambiguous. Certainly if the comp was over 18 holes and 10 holes were completed the card must be returned (2.2a). I am not clear about 2.2b when only 9 holes have been completed when 18 were intended. Should it be returned as if for a 9 hole comp or not returned at all?

*2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable*
_*2.2a For an 18-hole Score*
For an 18-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, a minimum of 10
holes must be played.
*2.2b For a 9-hole Score*
For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, all 9 holes must be
played. If a player has not played at least 9 holes, the score is not acceptable for
handicap purposes._

_A hole is considered to have been played if it has been started._

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So if you played 9 - hit a ball off the 10th tee and walked in you would have a counting card but not if you walked in after putting out on the 9th!


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## wjemather (May 5, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			So if you played 9 - hit a ball off the 10th tee and walked in you would have a counting card but not if you walked in after putting out on the 9th!
		
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You would also need a valid reason for not completing the 10th hole and the rest of the round.


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## jim8flog (May 5, 2021)

We have 3 player comps quite regularly.

Saturday Lady's comp.


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## Imurg (May 5, 2021)

I won a comp at Whipsnade that just had me and CVG entered...did him by a point


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			So if you played 9 - hit a ball off the 10th tee and walked in you would have a counting card but not if you walked in after putting out on the 9th!
		
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That is the question


We had 3 cards returned on Saturday that I have just been told about.
1) Played 10 holes and NRd the rest (ie 0) - computer generated scores for the rest - HI updated
2) Played 8 and NRd the rest but it is not yet known if he started the 9th (it seems V1 does not distinguish between NS & NF. 0 is the only option) - computer generated scores for the NRs but can't be sure whether it was treated as a 9 hole comp - HI updated
3) All scores entered as NR - HI may or may not have been affected as he only had 3 scores in his record but the WHS portal indicates it was not used.


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## wjemather (May 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			That is the question


We had 3 cards returned on Saturday that I have just been told about.
1) Played 10 holes and NRd the rest (ie 0) - computer generated scores for the rest - HI updated
2) Played 8 and NRd the rest but it is not yet known if he started the 9th (it seems V1 does not distinguish between NS & NF. 0 is the only option) - computer generated scores for the NRs but can't be sure whether it was treated as a 9 hole comp - HI updated
3) All scores entered as NR - HI may or may not have been affected as he only had 3 scores in his record but the WHS portal indicates it was not used.
		
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There are a lot of areas where ClubV1 still behaves like WHS never happened, but differentiating between NS (DNP) & NF (NR) is one of the few things ClubV1 does do. If all NRs have been entered, that will be an input error as the option is there for NS (player is prompted, and in the backoffice it's either check a DNP box or enter "*"). We've had a couple of retirements before ten holes, and when entered as NS in ClubV1 the score are not submitted to WHS (although I suspect that it is dotgolf rejecting them rather than V1 not trying to send them).

However... system generated 18 NRs for unreturned scores is something I have been chasing them about for a while now (along with the related missing DQ options). CSIcare's latest response was to ask me to highlight which rules state that they shouldn't be inventing 18 x net double-bogey returns and submitting them as acceptable scores to WHS. From what I've seen, it appears that IG behaves the same way in this regard.


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

wjemather said:



			There are a lot of areas where ClubV1 still behaves like WHS never happened, but *differentiating between NS (DNP) & NF (NR) is one of the few things ClubV1 does do. If all NRs have been entered, that will be an input error as the option is there for NS (player is prompted, and in the backoffice it's either check a DNP box or enter "*").* We've had a couple of retirements before ten holes, and when entered as NS in ClubV1 the score are not submitted to WHS (although I suspect that it is dotgolf rejecting them rather than V1 not trying to send them).

However... system generated 18 NRs for unreturned scores is something I have been chasing them about for a while now (along with the related missing DQ options). CSIcare's latest response was to ask me to highlight which rules state that they shouldn't be inventing 18 x net double-bogey returns and submitting them as acceptable scores to WHS. From what I've seen, it appears that IG behaves the same way in this regard.
		
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Thanks for that. I haven't actually used V1 yet.


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

wjemather said:



			However... system generated 18 NRs for unreturned scores is something I have been chasing them about for a while now (along with the related missing DQ options). CSIcare's latest response was to ask me to highlight which rules state that they shouldn't be inventing 18 x net double-bogey returns and submitting them as acceptable scores to WHS. From what I've seen, it appears that IG behaves the same way in this regard.
		
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I have just looked at case 3 (18 x NR) again. It is not yet known exactly what he entered in V1 but it may have been DNP ("*") (he was probably the most tech savvy of all of them).
However the WHS portal is showing Net triple bogey for every hole. Is this what you have seen.
Further, in fact he now has 5 scores in his record and his Index is showing as his lowest differential. Not -1.0  if only 4 scores were to be counted.


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

wjemather said:



			There are a lot of areas where ClubV1 still behaves like WHS never happened,
		
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Belay all

I may have confused things. I thought the players were using V1 but am told they used HDID and my informant says he is not aware of NS and NF being available in HDID. Do you know the operate differently?


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## wjemather (May 6, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Belay all

I may have confused things. I thought the players were using V1 but am told they used HDID and my informant says he is not aware of NS and NF being available in HDID. Do you know the operate differently?
		
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When a "0" hole score is entered via HDID, there is a prompt to confirm whether the hole was played or not before moving on to the next hole.


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## wjemather (May 6, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I have just looked at case 3 (18 x NR) again. It is not yet known exactly what he entered in V1 but it may have been DNP ("*") (he was probably the most tech savvy of all of them).
However the WHS portal is showing Net triple bogey for every hole. Is this what you have seen.
Further, in fact he now has 5 scores in his record and his Index is showing as his lowest differential. Not -1.0  if only 4 scores were to be counted.
		
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Not seen that. Any 18-hole score with 9 or more DNPs generates an error on CDH transmission, i.e. it doesn't get sent to/gets rejected by WHS.


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## rulefan (May 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Not seen that. Any 18-hole score with 9 or more DNPs generates an error on CDH transmission, i.e. it doesn't get sent to/gets rejected by WHS.
		
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Interesting. The record was on WHS last night. It is not this morning.

PS. Don't go away, I'm finding your assistance very useful


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## Springveldt (Aug 23, 2021)

Our comp got cancelled on Saturday even with about 20 scores in. I completed my round and my score was a counting one against my handicap (and it was showing on England Golf yesterday) but I've checked England Golf today and my round has been removed. I'm not sure if that's because my score is linked to the competition or not but I would have expected my round still to count against my handicap.


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## wjemather (Aug 23, 2021)

Springveldt said:



			Our comp got cancelled on Saturday even with about 20 scores in. I completed my round and my score was a counting one against my handicap (and it was showing on England Golf yesterday) but I've checked England Golf today and my round has been removed. I'm not sure if that's because my score is linked to the competition or not but I would have expected my round still to count against my handicap.
		
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You are correct. Per CONGU's guidance G5.6 (2), "scores returned from an abandoned competition will be entered into a player’s handicap record as usual...". This includes not just completed rounds, but those that are incomplete with 10 or more holes started (assuming an 18-hole comp - I've yet to receive clarification on what to do when exactly 9 holes have been started in an 18 hole comp).

I suspect the removal of your score is (probably) a consequence of how the software links work between WHS and your club's competition software, and how your committee have ended the competition in the latter; i.e. delete the comp and all the scores get deleted too - this then synchronises with WHS and removes the scores from there also.

Your committee should re-enter all the scores for handicapping.


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## Springveldt (Aug 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			You are correct. Per CONGU's guidance G5.6 (2), "scores returned from an abandoned competition will be entered into a player’s handicap record as usual...". This includes not just completed rounds, but those that are incomplete with 10 or more holes started (assuming an 18-hole comp - I've yet to receive clarification on what to do when exactly 9 holes have been started in an 18 hole comp).

I suspect the removal of your score is (probably) a consequence of how the software links work between WHS and your club's competition software, and how your committee have ended the competition in the latter; i.e. delete the comp and all the scores get deleted too - this then synchronises with WHS and removes the scores from there also.

Your committee should re-enter all the scores for handicapping.
		
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I suspect the other 100+ people who didn't enter scores as the comp got cancelled before they could even go out might have complained about getting a massive score on their records so they just deleted the comp completely. I might just enter it as a casual round score though since my card was signed by both me and the marker and the card was submitted into the card box after the round.


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## wjemather (Aug 23, 2021)

Springveldt said:



			I suspect the other 100+ people who didn't enter scores as the comp got cancelled before they could even go out might have complained about getting a massive score on their records so they just deleted the comp completely. I might just enter it as a casual round score though since my card was signed by both me and the marker and the card was submitted into the card box after the round.
		
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There would have been no need for those not starting (or only getting through a few holes) to get a massive score on their record - and nor should they. There are several ways for the committee to avoid or correct this unfortunate software issue.

Note that your score must be entered as being played on the correct day, and it should be tagged as a competition round rather than casual (for review purposes).

You should probably raise the issue with your committee because everyone who got through 9+ holes will also need their scores re-entering. Depending on when the committee deleted everything, once done, they may also need to request a PCC recalculation for Saturday from England Golf.


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## IanMcC (Aug 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



*There are a lot of areas where ClubV1 still behaves like WHS never happened, but differentiating between NS (DNP) & NF (NR) is one of the few things ClubV1 does do.* If all NRs have been entered, that will be an input error as the option is there for NS (player is prompted, and in the backoffice it's either check a DNP box or enter "*"). We've had a couple of retirements before ten holes, and when entered as NS in ClubV1 the score are not submitted to WHS (although I suspect that it is dotgolf rejecting them rather than V1 not trying to send them).
		
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You have this option if you are logged in as an administrator, for sure, but when a golfer uses our PSI in the clubhouse the only option is 0, whether you have started the hole or not. It would be great if a DNP option was on the PSI.


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## wjemather (Aug 23, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			You have this option if you are logged in as an administrator, for sure, but when a golfer uses our PSI in the clubhouse the only option is 0, whether you have started the hole or not. It would be great if a DNP option was on the PSI.
		
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Yes, I couldn't agree more, and have requested this functionality (several times) - after all, it's there for general play/casual rounds! I think it might be time to chase ClubSystems again.

In the meantime, committees need to have procedures in place to correct any such scores via the administration portal.


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## rulefan (Aug 23, 2021)

[QUOTE="wjemather, post: 2392514, member: 29516" have requested this functionality (several times) [/QUOTE]
As has England Golf


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