# Should anything be done about bandits?



## seochris (May 14, 2012)

Just back from Dubai after qualifying for the GB&I matchplay event....anyway i never had a thought about winning so i dont think this is sour grapes and not really sure if I should be airing this here but here goes anyway.  I am sure its been discussed many times before. 

The eventual winners in both the pairs and singles (dont know about the mixed) were in the view of most people complete bandits!  I can only vouch for the singles as that what i played in.

The singles winner was off 13, one lower than me, hit the ball 280 off the tee ( one went 320 with wind behind) longer than the genuine 5 handicapper in the group and chipped and putted like Luke Donald.  Off 3/4 handicap he went round the Els course (European Tour standard spec on all 3 days and at least 10.5 on the STIMP) in Dubai in 36, 37 and 41 points and won the comp by a margin of around 7 points if my memory serves me correctly.  He also did very well in another well (2nd) known national competition!  

So what do you think....having a good 3 days in 48 degrees of heat or should he be wearing a sombrero and robbing banks.  I felt for the genuine handicappers who were playing well but not getting anywhere near the scores.  The pairs went round on the final day and shot 47 points.....!  Also off 3/4 handicap and playing off 13 and 11 I think.   

With the introduction of events like the Matchplay, Volvo and Trilby tours etc. there is some serious stuff to be won!  

That was that but the more serious point here is how should this subtle form of cheating be eradicated from the game?  Can it ever be eradicated?  Should the rules be changed to deal with this?  If so, how?  Or should we just let them get on with it? 
Any views?  :sbox:


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## fundy (May 14, 2012)

The nature of the handicap system means to some people it is fair game and open to abuse, there are definitely those out there who play the bare minimum of qualifying comps and look to protect their handicaps and thus enable them to be more competitve in matchplay comps, which the majority of these big national comps are (at least at the qualifying stages)

Not quite sure how you do anything about it unless you increase the number of competitve rounds required for an active handicap which should be required to enter these comps, not difficult to fudge 3 rounds a year but try fudging 20 rounds a year per se! That said invariably the organisers want as many entrants as possible and arent likely to want to restrict the potential number of entrants by making handicap rules more stringent.

Theres also quite an argument that good players from very tough courses do very well in these type of competitions, due to what some would see as the failings of the CSS system which would be alleviated if we used the slope system like US and others do.

Ultimately though, any system is going to have some vulnerability and at times will be exploited.

PS well done on qualifying for the final and hope yope you had a great trip you bandit


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## pingman93 (May 14, 2012)

I totally understand what your saying my mate is like that but it's like anything one day he plays like he is off scratch due to the power and distance but other days because of his power it gets him in a lot of trouble so he is inconsistent. So I woul guess they prob just had 3 good rounds cause if they are constantly putting good rounds In the handicap would show


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## patricks148 (May 14, 2012)

Did they not get cut from the comp for 41 points? 

You will always get people who keep their handicap high, I know of a guy that plays out of Torvean was  cut to 6 didn't like getting cut  and has played every comp going to get up to 13. Has won the club champs twice so i'm told and the first 3 round of the Moray and Nairn winter league.

When you watch the triby tour plenty of sharks on that too.

every dog has its day some would say , not much you can do.


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## duncan mackie (May 14, 2012)

simple - these events should be played to a qualifying status; some aren't, and there is only one reason for that (and it's not the stated ones!)

I only enter qualifying events, prefererably without large prize tables, and strangely such individuals are absent.


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## rosecott (May 14, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			simple - these events should be played to a qualifying status
		
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I agree, but would they be authorised to run qualifiers. Golf England publish annually a list of organisations - in addition to affiliated clubs - who are authorised to run qualifiers. I assume that the other Home Unions do the same. If such events as the OP highlights were to be authorised to run qualifiers, then handicaps could be adjusted based on full handicap allowance even if 3/4 handicap was used for the award of prizes. Maybe then a few more bandits would be snared.
Another possibility would be the reporting back to clubs players' performance in such events for consideration under General Play.


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## duncan mackie (May 14, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I agree, but would they be authorised to run qualifiers. Golf England publish annually a list of organisations - in addition to affiliated clubs - who are authorised to run qualifiers. I assume that the other Home Unions do the same. If such events as the OP highlights were to be authorised to run qualifiers, then handicaps could be adjusted based on full handicap allowance even if 3/4 handicap was used for the award of prizes. Maybe then a few more bandits would be snared.
Another possibility would be the reporting back to clubs players' performance in such events for consideration under General Play.
		
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I suspect that this happened in this case!

The winner has been cut from 12.7 (last Q compl played that I could trace in July 2011) to 10.0 by his club.

Some might suggest a little late.... The OP references other success, I found Pro Am success published to the degree that his clubs...."Paul has had his irons blue printed (OEM clubs rebuilt to the quailty  standards used when custom building from scratch) by Four Counties Golf  and he also uses a custom fit and built Alpha V5 3 wood with a  Mitsubishi Javelin shaft.                        " his regional qualifying score for the finals would have seen him cut (38 off 3/4), etc


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## seochris (May 14, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			I suspect that this happened in this case!

The winner has been cut from 12.7 (last Q compl played that I could trace in July 2011) to 10.0 by his club.

Some might suggest a little late.... The OP references other success, I found Pro Am success published to the degree that his clubs...."Paul has had his irons blue printed (OEM clubs rebuilt to the quailty  standards used when custom building from scratch) by Four Counties Golf  and he also uses a custom fit and built Alpha V5 3 wood with a  Mitsubishi Javelin shaft.                        " his regional qualifying score for the finals would have seen him cut (38 off 3/4), etc
		
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So do you know the individual concerned?


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## duncan mackie (May 14, 2012)

seochris said:



			So do you know the individual concerned?
		
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Never knew of his existence until you posted - didn't take long to piece the above together (as you saw)


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## seochris (May 14, 2012)

New screen name for you...Sherlock!  And do you think a 13 handicapper would get his clubs blue printed?  

I Didn't even know you could until 10 mins ago!  The 3 wood worked very well....hit greens from 220!


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## Birchy (May 14, 2012)

Only way to stop it is to make people play more qualifying comps in the year imo.


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## JustOne (May 14, 2012)

Comps should have categories... it might not help all but it would help some. Was thinking about the Trilby Tour this year but I'm sure some shark off 14 will win.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 14, 2012)

I'm not for one second suggesting there is anyone on here in the bandit bracket but GM ran their centenary events in divisions and even the final was split into two groups (so technically I'm a GM winner for the next 99 years). I think there has to be a way of limiting the effect a bandit can have. Granted there has to be an overall winner, but by having different sections isn't it giving the majority something to play for anyway and would certainly give the low guys at this event a goal. I can't see how they would have competed other than shooting level par rounds on a tour condition course. 

It seems from the detective work that the guy may have "previous" or certainly fancied himself by having the gear tweaked like that. Hawkeye aan I are in the Volvo and I will probably go into the singles too but to be honest we've no expectations of winning and just want the chance to pla some other decent courses. I'm sure sooner or later if we do progress we'll come across at least one player like the guy referred to in the OP which will make a mockery of the match


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Comps should have categories... it might not help all but it would help some. Was thinking about the Trilby Tour this year but I'm sure some shark off 14 will win.
		
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In my experience, that's normally a good bet for any comp, well 11-15 anyway. Not only does this tend to be where most players tend to be, but it's also the level at which a 'good day' can produce great results. 

Could be that that guy devoted himself to improving with that tourney as incentive, but a Cat 3 player playing to Cat 1 level does smell somewhat.


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## rickg (May 14, 2012)

I'm playing in the Trilby Tour this Wednesday at Frilford Heath. I had the opportunity to change my handicap to 9 yesterday, ( I'm currently on 8.4 and I could have put in a supplemental....would have been easy to get the 0.1 I needed). 

This would have allowed me to play off 7 instead of 6 in the TT, ( 3/4's H/C). The extra shot could make all the difference between qualifying and not qualifying for the final.

I would never do such a thing, but I know others wouldn't have given it a second thought......fingers crossed....I'll get my reward the right way........:thup:


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## duncan mackie (May 14, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Comps should have categories... it might not help all but it would help some. Was thinking about the Trilby Tour this year but I'm sure some shark off 14 will win.
		
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The winner referred to in the openning post was a TT 2011 Regional Winner,

whilst the overall TT2011 winner, (2010 and 2011 regional winner) came second.

It is difficult to accept that either player simply managed to put together a one off performance at the event raised by the OP.

Neither event is run to a handicap qualifying format.


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## rickg (May 14, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			The winner referred to in the openning post was a TT 2011 Regional Winner,

whilst the overall TT2011 winner, (2010 and 2011 regional winner) came second.
		
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just looked at the results....last years TT winner shot 43 points in the 3rd round in Dubai....off 3/4's H/C??....I think his club H/C is around 6 so that means 3/4 = 5........43 points off 5 is shooting 7 better than handicap which equates to a round of 2 under???

I think his winning score in the TT final was 40 points also off 3/4's.............and as Duncan pointed out, he also won his regional event in 2011 and 2010.............these are competitions played off the very back tees with pretty slicked up greens and pin positions.......that's some shooting.....


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## Val (May 14, 2012)

rickg said:



			I'm playing in the Trilby Tour this Wednesday at Frilford Heath. I had the opportunity to change my handicap to 9 yesterday, ( I'm currently on 8.4 and I could have put in a supplemental....would have been easy to get the 0.1 I needed). 

This would have allowed me to play off 7 instead of 6 in the TT, ( 3/4's H/C). The extra shot could make all the difference between qualifying and not qualifying for the final.

I would never do such a thing, but I know others wouldn't have given it a second thought......fingers crossed....I'll get my reward the right way........:thup:
		
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Quite right, good luck Rick

:thup:


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## JustOne (May 14, 2012)

rickg said:



			I'm playing in the Trilby Tour this Wednesday at Frilford Heath.
		
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If someone comes in with 44 points off 3/4 it is your DUTY to stand up and shout "Fecking bandit!".... 

...... tell 'em it's from Smiffy :thup:


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## rickg (May 14, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If someone comes in with 44 points off 3/4 it is your DUTY to stand up and shout "Fecking bandit!".... 

...... tell 'em it's from Smiffy :thup:
		
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What if I get 44..................:ears:


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## JustOne (May 14, 2012)

rickg said:



			What if I get 44..................:ears:
		
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Well in that case I'd buy you a drink because I know you'd have played FANTASTIC!


I know you're not a bandit.





















.... not with that swing! :whoo:


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## williamalex1 (May 15, 2012)

a plus two handicap player at my club, recorded a 1 under the css score at an away competition, which he did not play in , so that he could retain his handicap .  [ for invitation purposes] he was suspended.  and since debarred. so thats the other side of the coin


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			just looked at the results....last years TT winner shot 43 points in the 3rd round in Dubai....off 3/4's H/C??....I think his club H/C is around 6 so that means 3/4 = 5........43 points off 5 is shooting 7 better than handicap which equates to a round of 2 under???

I think his winning score in the TT final was 40 points also off 3/4's.............and as Duncan pointed out, he also won his regional event in 2011 and 2010.............these are competitions played off the very back tees with pretty slicked up greens and pin positions.......that's some shooting.....

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complete and utter banditry!


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			complete and utter banditry!
		
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He also won the Daily Telegraph Final in Portugal in 2010...........:rant:


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

My mate Norman is going to win one of the "big ones" next year. Can't remember the last "official" handicap he held, but he plays off 10, and is normally good value for that.
He's going to join Boars Head, where I was a member for a short while. Â£30.00 joining fee, and Â£15.00 to play thereafter. Enter three qualifiers and oink it around the course. It's very, very easy to 3 putt, even 4 putt a lot of those greens. I reckon he could easily get an 18 or 19 handicap around there if he really tried.
So it's cost him Â£75.00 to obtain an official handicap.
He'll clean up. And he's promised to take me to the Algarve with him when he wins the Volvo singles.
He won't enter the Tribly Tour though. Too expensive at Â£250.00.
But the HowdidIdo and Volvo ones at Â£20.00 seem good value.


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## chrisd (May 15, 2012)

There were a couple of guys in the Kent area who "specialised" in "prize" golf. They were found out after joining my home club and never played there in comps (before active h/capping) and eventually questions were asked and we threw them out of the club, in the mean time they "won" quite a few holidays etc worth a fair amount of money.


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

A few years ago Norman and I entered a national papers knockout competition. Played pretty well and got through to the quarter finals, came up against two guys from Gillingham GC. One of them was off 9, the other one was off 14. The 14 handicapper was the biggest bandit I have ever come across. He was driving first on each hole and he was outdriving the 9 handicapper by some decent margin. Second shots were like radar straight at the pin. The only drive he messed up was on about the 10th hole where he carved one into the trees. The 9 handicapper stepped up and striped one down the middle, his best drive of the day. We got stuffed 4&3 despite both playing out of our boots and roughly to our handicaps.
Norman refused to shake the guys hand afterwards. And when I asked him why his handicap wasn't lower he said that a society he played in made him play off 8 and he wouldn't win anything if it was lower.


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## collins (May 15, 2012)

Interesting post, it's always going to be a problem I fear.

I find it sad that people feel the need to protect their handicaps so desperately - I would be much happier telling people that I was a decent single figure handicap than off 14ish but winning everything because my handicap was a tad on the high side!

The whole point of the game to me is to get my handicap as low as I can (and enjoy the challenges along the way).


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If someone comes in with 44 points off 3/4 it is your DUTY to stand up and shout "Fecking bandit!".... 

...... tell 'em it's from Smiffy :thup:
		
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The two individuals in question will be partnering in the TT foursomes event later this year. I asked the runner up what he intends to call his team? 

In the absence of a reply I suggested he might like to call themselves ' Smokey and the bandit'! :rofl:


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## USER1999 (May 15, 2012)

The handicap system is supposed to provide a fairly level playing field, where by every body in theory has an equal chance of winning.

Any one who is a serial winner, especially of a series of national competitions, year in, year out, has to be a cheat.

His club should be embarassed that he is representing them.


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## Shaunmg (May 15, 2012)

Same old story; we donâ€™t mind a high handicapper as long as he doesnâ€™t actually win anything. Just to make sure he doesnâ€™t win, make it Â¾ H/C. If he still wins, then he is automatically a bandit.

I play in my club comps almost every week. Lost count of the number of times Iâ€™m called a bandit during a round if I get the odd par giving me 3 points, or even the occasional 4 points. No comment other than â€œbad luckâ€ at the clutch of 1 pointers and the 2 or 3 blobs I get. Yet this is one bandit who has actually never won anything


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## USER1999 (May 15, 2012)

Winning club comps is way different to national stuff. Thousands of people enter the Volvo (and similar), so to win it is pretty tough, and must require a lot of luck. To win it more than once? No chance. Especially if you have also won the Trilby too. This has nothing to do with high handicap golfers have a purple patch. This is cheating. You can't have a purple patch for 4 years odd, without getting a pretty serious handicap reduction.


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## bobmac (May 15, 2012)

Same old story; we donâ€™t mind a high handicapper as long as he doesnâ€™t actually win anything.

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Tell me another sport where someone who is rubbuish has a right to win?

You try spending 20 years honing your game, working hard and getting down to cat I and getting stuffed by someone whos just started and who cheats.


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## moogie (May 15, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Winning club comps is way different to national stuff. Thousands of people enter the Volvo (and similar), so to win it is pretty tough, and must require a lot of luck. To win it more than once? No chance. Especially if you have also won the Trilby too. This has nothing to do with high handicap golfers have a purple patch. This is cheating. You can't have a purple patch for 4 years odd, without getting a pretty serious handicap reduction.
		
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HERE HERE
PURE CHEAT
NO OTHER WORD FOR IT..............:angry:


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

Shaunmg said:



Same old story; we donâ€™t mind a high handicapper as long as he doesnâ€™t actually win anything. Just to make sure he doesnâ€™t win, make it Â¾ H/C. If he still wins, then he is automatically a bandit.

I play in my club comps almost every week. Lost count of the number of times Iâ€™m called a bandit during a round if I get the odd par giving me 3 points, or even the occasional 4 points. No comment other than â€œbad luckâ€ at the clutch of 1 pointers and the 2 or 3 blobs I get. Yet this is one bandit who has actually never won anything

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There's a tongue-in-cheek ribbing from your mates for a 4 pointer or the odd decent round here and there... then there's being a bandit... not the same.

If you've not won a sausage then I'd suggest you're probably not a bandit. If you'd won 8 regional titles 5 televised events and scraped a lucky half with an American at the Ryder Cup then I'd suggest you shouldn't be playin' off 18


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

Perhaps we should run a national register of bandits....like a name and shame list! Any views? 

So perhaps and off the top of my head....Name, Club, Handicap and latest handicap movements and scores! 

Or maybe just keep it simple....Name, Club amd Handicap.


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## Curls (May 15, 2012)

I just don't see how people like this can live with themselves??!! We played our first matchplay 4 ball yesterday and thankfully only one guy showed up, his partner was called away and we had no time to reschedule so I thought great stuff. Turns out they won the winter leagues (non-qualifiers) last week, he was off 16 (my eye he was) and proceed to play like a single figure guy the whole way round. We barely beat him, took us all the way to the 18th. I've been playing well (off 15 now) and am on the way down but I wasn't nearly a match for this guy, if it wasn't for my partner digging me out a few times we would have lost, if the other guy turned up they would have turned us inside out, and I'd be on this thread bemoaning banditry with the best of ye. It sickens me and to be honest if I do meet the guy again I'll not be asking for a game, I shook hands on the 18th and said I'd buy him a drink but he was fairly indignant, you could tell he was pissed off, probably thought they had this trophy in the bag so he stormed off for another round!!!! 

Its a shame cos he's the first person we met at the club and I was hoping we would meet new folk. Anyway with these bandits out of the comp hopefully everyone will get a fairer crack of the whip (unless there's plenty more like him). I'd love a good honest match and even if we lost I'd not mind as long as I knew no one was pulling a fast one.


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

seochris said:



			Name, Club amd Handicap.
		
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Name: Smiffy Smith 
Club: Crowborough Beacon
H/CAP: 13
Should be off: 18

Oh, hang on a sec.......................... :whoo:


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Name: Smiffy Smith 
Club: Crowborough Beacon
H/CAP: 13
Should be off: 18


Oh, hang on a sec.......................... :whoo:

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:rofl:


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## Shaunmg (May 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Tell me another sport where someone who is rubbuish has a right to win?

You try spending 20 years honing your game, working hard and getting down to cat I and getting stuffed by someone whos just started and who cheats.
		
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Horse racing has a handicap system. If it didnâ€™t, there would be no Horse racing. The same to some extent could be said for club golf. No club golf, then no Pro golf and no pros Bob

Golf has a handicap system because it can, and on the whole it works. Other sports canâ€™t, because it couldnâ€™t work. How would you handicap a footballer or boxer?

I fully accept and bow to the points made by murphthemog. National comps are different kettle of fish. I also fully accept your point Bob. I have a high handicap and it frustrates me when someone with an even higher one beats me.

I have heard the justifiable argument you make Bob, many times. I play in the club seniors comps and normal club comps. We have a guy in the seniors who plays off 6, he is on a hiding to nothing, and I have never known him to win. Yet I donâ€™t know of a single high handicapper who like me doesnâ€™t desperately want to get their handicap down. 

Itâ€™s about time the golfing world made its mind up. Do they want a sport for the masses or not? Either have a uniform handicap system that canâ€™t be tampered with or none at all. If they do want it, then whatâ€™s the point in undermining it with Â¾ H/C. I donâ€™t hold with the argument itâ€™s the same for all, if so they why do it at all? To take it to its extreme a 4 H/C losing one shot, is not the same as a 28 H/C loosing 7 

My advice to all high handicappers is stay away from major comps that are out of your league. Try to win a club comp, then try again at the reduced handicap. Itâ€™s a goal Iâ€™ve yet to achieve, but I enjoy trying


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## chrisd (May 15, 2012)

Shaunmg said:



How would you handicap a footballer 





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Put him in the same team as Joey Barton?


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

played in an away competition at the weekend and someone shot -4 off the back tees and only came second. doesnt really matter though as he is thee best player at that club by some distance and proceeded to win the scratch cup there the following day.


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## Region3 (May 15, 2012)

Anyone who is improving could 'appear' to be a bandit as their handicap comes down while they're winning things, but as Murph said, you don't do it 2 or more years running off the same handicap without some dodgy business going on.

Unacceptable imo, and as someone else suggested their clubs should not be proud that they are being represented in this fashion.

There are some on here that think I should be lower than I am and guess I could look like a bandit to others, but I'd never manipulate it for the purpose of winning things.

I hope there's a difference.


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## G1BB0 (May 15, 2012)

Gary, you protect that h/c m8... think of the Volvo pairs


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## bobmac (May 15, 2012)

Golf has a handicap system because it can, and on the whole it works

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 We have a guy in the seniors who plays off 6, he is on a hiding to nothing, and I have never known him to win.

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Either have a uniform handicap system that canâ€™t be tampered with or none at all

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Sadly, when it relies on the honesty and integrity of EVERYONE concerned, the handicap system is going to be flawed.




My advice to all high handicappers is stay away from major comps *that are out of your league*.

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So the system doesn't work then?


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## G1BB0 (May 15, 2012)

Anyone can enter aslong as within the requirements of the comp. If a high capper wins then he played well (if a genuine handicap). If I played a blinder anywhere I would hastily whack it in as a supplementary as I would rather a decent h.c than win lots of things as that is more reflective of ones ability imho.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

it wasnt me who shot the -4. lol


i was going well until me and partner finished our wee game against my bro and nephew. won 5&4 thank you very much. took the foot off the pedal and then blanked 16 and 18. two easy holes. ended up with 33. 37 would have got me tied 3rd. whoops.

i wasnt keeping my score and was kicking myself after. have yet to shoot well under handicap this season. only 1 small cut and a load of buffers. one or two double bogeys is enough to rock me atm. just need that no mistake round. course management is key!


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Name: Smiffy Smith 
Club: Crowborough Beacon
H/CAP: 13
Should be off: 18

Oh, hang on a sec.......................... :whoo:

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Says the 26 point specialist.
I mean, that's like regularly playing to 16 isn't it????


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## chrisd (May 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So the system doesn't work then?
		
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Lets be honest, it works for the majority of the players most of the time. Any system can and will be cheated upon, but competitions, at times, will be won by high handicappers who work on their game and improve and, I feel, if you put in the hours then you deserve the chance to win something whilst getting a cut. 

I recently had people calling my partner a bandit off 17, when we won, with the "no 17 h/capper can hit a ball like that" ( he had been off 9 at one time but has the yips on chipping) and one of our opponents was off 10 and pretty well level par for the front 9 - but as we won, he wasn't a bandit (apparently)


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

chrisd said:



			competitions, at times, will be won by high handicappers who work on their game and improve
		
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Or by cheating bastids who play 5 times a week and then sling their clubs in the boot of the car after every game drive home and never had a card in, apart from the 3 required.
Like the git from Gillingham.


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## G1BB0 (May 15, 2012)

Is this a more widespread issue than I realised, it seems to be after reading posts on this and other forums over the last 12 months.


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## Oddsocks (May 15, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			Says the 26 point specialist.
I mean, that's like regularly playing to 16 isn't it????


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mate, ive just spat tea all over the new puter at work... PMSL.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

chrisd said:



			Lets be honest, it works for the majority of the players most of the time. Any system can and will be cheated upon, but competitions, at times, will be won by high handicappers who work on their game and improve and, I feel, if you put in the hours then you deserve the chance to win something whilst getting a cut. 

I recently had people calling my partner a bandit off 17, when we won, with the "no 17 h/capper can hit a ball like that" ( he had been off 9 at one time but has the yips on chipping) and one of our opponents was off 10 and pretty well level par for the front 9 - but as we won, he wasn't a bandit (apparently)
		
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how does someone go from playing off 9 to going to 17! unless through a serious injury i would also find that hard to believe tbh!


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## CMAC (May 15, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			Is this a more widespread issue than I realised, it seems to be after reading posts on this and other forums over the last 12 months.
		
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it never bothered me apart from playing against a 15 h/capper who was minus1 gross for the last 7 holes of a championship golf course, but it does seem more widespread in the 12-18 bracket where a low man can be giving away shots on most holes and could be getting outdriven as well..........

I def knew some at an old club and now this thread has reminded me that that was one of the reasons I moved on, the other was the course wasnt challenging enough and you could go round with 3 wood and 9 iron for the majority of holes, which also makes it very easy for the bandit to reign supreme


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			how does someone go from playing off 9 to going to 17! unless through a serious injury i would also find that hard to believe tbh!
		
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I'm trying hard to prove that it's possible........................ :angry:


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm trying hard to prove that it's possible........................ :angry:
		
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A shitehouse full of 26 pointers is helping.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm trying hard to prove that it's possible........................ :angry:
		
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i hope your joking   what was the lowest you have got down to and what is the highest since if you dont mind me asking?


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## Oddsocks (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			how does someone go from playing off 9 to going to 17! unless through a serious injury i would also find that hard to believe tbh!
		
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pretty friggin easy so it would seem.

before christmas im shooting 76/77/78 weekly around my course (par 68) - after christmas im shooting late 80's and early 90's..... it can be done.


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			what was the lowest you have got down to and what is the highest
		
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a) A Jack Russell
b) A Shetland Pony


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			a) A Jack Russell
b) A Shetland Pony
		
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boom boom tiss !! :rofl:


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## bobmac (May 15, 2012)

I seem to remember a junior shooting level par one year and being off 24 the next.
He then won 5 opens with ease and ended up of 12 ish.
There was a broken arm in there somewhere too.


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			i hope your joking  what was the lowest you have got down to and what is the highest since if you dont mind me asking?
		
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Lowest 1.4 highest is current at 6.4  looks like I'm off 7 if i chop it round the next comp..... I laugh about it to stop myself from crying about it  

My injuries really stop me from achieving anything nowadays and it's not a great deal of fun chopping it round. I really should get out and practice around the greens at least, that'll stop me going up any further.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			pretty friggin easy so it would seem.

before christmas im shooting 76/77/78 weekly around my course (par 68) - after christmas im shooting late 80's and early 90's..... it can be done.
		
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hope you can turn it around soon. id say people who put the clubs away over winter would struggle to play to their handicap espically if they were playing well and got cut just before they went away. yes, my bro, if your lurking and reading this i am talking about you.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Lowest 1.4 highest is current at 6.4  looks like I'm off 7 if i chop it round the next comp..... I laugh about it to stop myself from crying about it  

My injuries really stop me from achieving anything nowadays and it's not a great deal of fun chopping it round. I really should get out and practice around the greens at least, that'll stop me going up any further.
		
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must be hard enough going up like that. the thing to remember is that most golfers would give their right nut to play like you. just enjoy it. you'll never be back at 17


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			Is this a more widespread issue than I realised, it seems to be after reading posts on this and other forums over the last 12 months.
		
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Its been going on since the invention of the handicap system!  What is bringing it to the fore is the fact that these comps are now so big (over 6000 entries in the Matchplay) and the prizes are worth having.  

I think another point is that by and large these 'national' bandits are all pretty anonymous.  Most of us did not know who they were and if they were bandits or not until they started playing.  Its not like a club bandit where everyone knows who he/she is and eventually peer pressure and the Handicap Secretary does something about it.  IMO these guys are husslers and I dont care what anybody says, the standard and consitency of play belies their handicap.  After the first day the eventual winner was 5 points ahead of me (lying second after day 1) and 11 points ahead of 3rd! 

And if the prize is a week in Dubai or the Algarve, merely being called a bandit a few times is not going to cut much ice as they step off the plane in the Algarve! 


I think at the very least they should be made qualifying events.....IMO this will go part way to sorting this out.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

why are they not qualifying events? these are seen as thee majors for the amateur player and should count towards our handicap.


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			why are they not qualifying events? these are seen as thee majors for the amateur player and should count towards our handicap.
		
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I agree but dont know.  If you are a genuine handicap there is nothing to fear!


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I seem to remember a junior shooting level par one year and being off 24 the next.
		
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His name was Homer J Simpson Bob


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## Oddsocks (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			hope you can turn it around soon. id say people who put the clubs away over winter would struggle to play to their handicap espically if they were playing well and got cut just before they went away. yes, my bro, if your lurking and reading this i am talking about you. 

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the thing is i didnt put them away, i played through, developed a fault that 3 pros have failed to fix, and now the game has gone down the crapper. the only time i didnt play was through the snow.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

stick at it OS! things will turn around then you will wonder what the fuss was all about! was struggleing with my driving of late but a quick grip change and cut down the back swing and im back in the game!


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## Region3 (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			why are they not qualifying events? these are seen as thee majors for the amateur player and should count towards our handicap.
		
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I don't think that would help. The guy who just won in Dubai might get cut 1 or 2 shots but he can soon get those back in club comps if he wanted to badly enough.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I don't think that would help. The guy who just won in Dubai might get cut 1 or 2 shots but he can soon get those back in club comps if he wanted to badly enough.
		
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he would have to play 20 comps to get that back. it sounded like this guy played off in and around the same handicap for successive years. at least a cut or two during these comps would make life a little more difficult for him. or his handicap sec needs to grow a set!


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			why are they not qualifying events? these are seen as thee majors for the amateur player and should count towards our handicap.
		
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for the same reason that nearly all the amateur opens (other than prestigious ones) are now played as better ball pairs, greensomes or am/am formats with large prize tables..........

this is a nether world outside the true handicapping system.

enter a true Q open event, or better still something like the Bournmouth 72 hole event, and you will be competing against golfers who are primarily normal, with a smattering of new starts who are fast improving and the odd guy who plays medal like everyone else plays BB matchplay and can get lucky (once in 200 rounds!).  Events with their roots in the Q system and club qualifiers are generally better, although some do get targetted now by the 'stronger players' in the way that Captains Day used to be 15 years ago. 
As has been pointed out there is also the suggestion that are also complicit clubs, and there are complicit organisers - one of the largest club based events refused to publish the data behind their results last year which has caused significant concern amongst a number of people I have spoken too. There have been people posting on this forum that have unwittingly highlighted some practices.

It's all got far too commercial

Stick to the club medal - not many bandits will be found there in the summer (Q comps) anymore...


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I don't think that would help. The guy who just won in Dubai might get cut 1 or 2 shots but he can soon get those back in club comps if he wanted to badly enough.
		
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on what I can see he would get 0.3 per year......


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Lowest 1.4 highest is current at 6.4  looks like I'm off 7 if i chop it round the next comp..... I laugh about it to stop myself from crying about it  

My injuries really stop me from achieving anything nowadays and it's not a great deal of fun chopping it round. I really should get out and practice around the greens at least, that'll stop me going up any further.
		
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garyinderry said:



			must be hard enough going up like that. the thing to remember is that most golfers would give their right nut to play like you. just enjoy it. you'll never be back at 17 

Click to expand...

To get low you've gotta shoot a lot of rounds under par... shooting 80 now isn't much fun, normally it's the company that makes the day. At least I know that I've done the grinding and had a LOT of fun over the years. We all want to play good golf, I'm lucky I've made a few birdies in my time and done pretty much all I think I wanted to... apart from win anything!!! feckin' bandits always seemed to keep me off the top spot 

Ironically, shooting 4 under in the company of a forumer is about as close to winning something as I think I'll get, once when I shot 3 under I came 5th 

Days like Woodhall Spa where myself and Gibbo won our match against tough opponents mean more to me now that loads of stuff I've done in the past :thup:


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## bobmac (May 15, 2012)

Days like Woodhall Spa where myself and Gibbo won our match against  tough opponents mean more to me now that loads of stuff I've done in the  past :thup:
		
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Completely agree.
When I lost my handicap it was brilliant.
I spent my whole golfing life chasing the handicap. The cuts were great but the bad days were miserable.
Now, I play for fun and not worry about getting .1 back and my golf is more relaxed
It was good fun beating Smiffy though


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## Crazyface (May 15, 2012)

seochris said:



			Perhaps we should run a national register of bandits....like a name and shame list! Any views? 

So perhaps and off the top of my head....Name, Club, Handicap and latest handicap movements and scores! 

Or maybe just keep it simple....Name, Club amd Handicap.
		
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This! Get a website up and running. Name and shame. The only way to have yourself removed is with a letter from the H/C of your club confirming you have a valid H/C.


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## rosecott (May 15, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			If I played a blinder anywhere I would hastily whack it in as a supplementary
		
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What are you talking about GIBBO? Two things:

1. You can't "whack in" a Supplementary from any old course - it's got to be your Home Course.
2. You can't "whack in" a Supplementary after you realise it's a good round - it has to be registered in advance of playing.


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			It was good fun beating Smiffy though 

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And how I wish I'd stuck to my original plan of just playing you over 18 rather than 36.
I'd have won 1 up.
Trouble was, I let myself get suckered into it, knowing full well that I would be tiring down the last couple of furlongs.
Still. Played 3, won 2. Not a bad result against a pro.


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			I let myself get suckered into it, knowing full well that I would be tiring down the last couple of furlongs.
		
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You make it sound as if you were playing against a spring chicken! This is Bobmac we're talking about.... you know...... 'Old Roly Poly' as he's affectionately known


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## Smiffy (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			You make it sound as if you were playing against a spring chicken! This is Bobmac we're talking about.... you know...... 'Old Roly Poly' as he's affectionately known 

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The fat, bald headed old knob is younger than me!


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## bobmac (May 15, 2012)

Roly poly indeed. 
That's my winter coat.
Carefully crafted and honed by some serious winter training.
Pieman taught me everything I know about winter preparation.
And I am a lot younger than Smiffy

I'm certain the old boy had a whiff about him at Woburn though.
Probably comes from hanging around men's public toilets.


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## chrisd (May 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Pieman taught me everything I know about winter preparation.
		
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and to be fair there's not a lot Pieman doesn't know about that!


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

Is the guy really a bandit?

I dont think that can be determined by score alone. Shooting low is one thing but we are all capable of shooting lower than our handicaps from time to time. I think a bandit in the truest sense of the word is someone who avoids getting cut by not entering qualifying comps or by Nil returning when they can see they are not going to win. 

Do we know if this guy is guilty of this? Just being devils advocate thats all.

If I were to shoot 3 very good rounds in a row I would hate to be considered a bandit. I mean 36 pts and 37 pts of 3/4 is not that outlandish is it? or am I being naive?


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## rosecott (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			I mean 36 pts and 37 pts of 3/4 is not that outlandish is it? or am I being naive?
		
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The OP said the guy was off 13. Assuming Par 72/SSS 72 (as I don't know the course details) that would have been 39, 40 and 44 points using full handicap. Any self-respecting handicap committee would be wielding a very big axe on any member returning 3 consecutive scores like those.


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## moogie (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			Is the guy really a bandit?

I dont think that can be determined by score alone. Shooting low is one thing but we are all capable of shooting lower than our handicaps from time to time. I think a bandit in the truest sense of the word is someone who avoids getting cut by not entering qualifying comps or by Nil returning when they can see they are not going to win. 

Do we know if this guy is guilty of this? Just being devils advocate thats all.

If I were to shoot 3 very good rounds in a row I would hate to be considered a bandit. I mean 36 pts and 37 pts of 3/4 is not that outlandish is it? or am I being naive?
		
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ARE YOU FOR REAL................??

The guy ---- CHEATER ----  has just cleaned up in Dubai,  on the Els course,  European Tour spec course, not a Mickey Mouse municipal, or the like

THINK ABOUT IT.................


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## seochris (May 15, 2012)

moogie said:



			ARE YOU FOR REAL................??

The guy ---- CHEATER ----  has just cleaned up in Dubai,  on the Els course,  European Tour spec course, not a Mickey Mouse municipal, or the like

THINK ABOUT IT.................
		
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He also won the Oxfordshire leg of the TT and was runner up in the overall event!  The Els course is about 7,500 yds and we played them off the back tees on the last day....greens were at least 10.5 on the stimp.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2012)

The guy is clearly a cheat. No other explanation. You can rest assured he'll be back this year, same handicap and doing it all over again but what can you do. As long as he has an active handicap and all he has to do is whack three mediocre cards in he's free to rob everyone blind


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## patricks148 (May 15, 2012)

Funny how you never get any guys in Cat 1 winning any of these events


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The guy is clearly a cheat. No other explanation. You can rest assured he'll be back this year, same handicap and doing it all over again but what can you do. As long as he has an active handicap and all he has to do is whack three mediocre cards in he's free to rob everyone blind
		
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did you miss the bit about his having been cut 3 shots?


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			Funny how you never get any guys in Cat 1 winning any of these events

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Ian Barker 1 Handicap won the Surrey leg of the TT last year.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

Murph and I played our practice round today.....we paired up with a couple from the Midlands and Bolton.......what was the first topic of conversation that came up???????

The guy from the Midlands had played in the Volvo pairs at Dubai and all he could talk about was how hard the course was, how, long, how fast the greens were............and how amazed they ALL were when a couple of guys repeatedly shot 37, 40, 43 points round after round with 3/4 handicap......


He was talking to a couple who said they we're copmpeting in Portugal for their 5th year in a row!!!!!!!.....5 times they had qualified........Jesus Christ....I would be ecstatic if I went there once in a blue moon.........but 5 years in a row..........come on.,...wake up and smell the roses....these folks are cheats...out and out..........justify it as much as you want.............but I'm fed up of standing alongside people having paid my Â£250 and knowing that I don't stand a cat in hells chance............

the more I think about it, the angrier it's making me.. ( that may also be the Grolsch...).......

How do the clubs that these people belong to feel?....if a guy from my club won a national qualifier I would be made up for him......if he won 2 in row  I would be suspicious....if he won 3........I wouldn't ever want to talk to him again................why aren't these people outed?


GM....time for an expose...some real investigative journalism.....you up for it?....lets get to the bottom of why and HOW this is allowed to happen year after  year....the same names...year after year......43 of 3/4 handicap year after year with no handicap cuts to speak of...........


why do we put up with it????


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## Heidi (May 15, 2012)

Gargoyle - i like the idea of some investigative journo getting to the bottom of banditing! I'd buy the rag that month!
i've only come across two bandits - playing in a charity do. They claimed hcaps of 11 and 15. 1 and 5 would have been closer! I think me and the old lady I was partnered with ended up with a dog licence. The guy off 11 hit a dog leg par 4 green in one! We had no chance

I believe there are very few bandits on the mixed circuit in Scotland - prize money is too small for them to bother entering!


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2012)

now you are getting it Rick - there's no half measures involved here!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			GM....time for an expose...some real investigative journalism.....you up for it?....lets get to the bottom of why and HOW this is allowed to happen year after year....the same names...year after year......43 of 3/4 handicap year after year with no handicap cuts to speak of...........


why do we put up with it????
		
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Love the sentiment matey but lets not forget GM and the other mags usually have a tie in with these comps so are they really going to want to rock the boat. Totally agree with everything you said though and if there was a way to do some kind of expose without it affecting GM then wouldn't it make a great story


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			did you miss the bit about his having been cut 3 shots?
		
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I just think its a dangerous precedent to lable someone a bandit on the basis of some good scoring. If that was the only rationale we've all been bandits at some point. I mean who can honestly say on here that they havent scored 40+ pts in a stableford? Or to put it another way, on your day how many shots can you shoot below your handicap? I can only speak for myself but my medal scores range +/- 6 shots from my handicap.

I'm a hacker one minute and a bandit the next, and probably the most honest person you could ever meet.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			I just think its a dangerous precedent to lable someone a bandit on the basis of some good scoring. If that was the only rationale we've all been bandits at some point. I mean who can honestly say on here that they havent scored 40+ pts in a stableford? Or to put it another way, on your day how many shots can you shoot below your handicap? I can only speak for myself but my medal scores range +/- 6 shots from my handicap.

I'm a hacker one minute and a bandit the next, and probably the most honest person you could ever meet.
		
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Sawtooth..........EVERYONE can shoot 40 points +.............EVERYONE can have a blinder....( I shot a level par round when I was off 11)..........BUT...we are talking about people who are doing this repeatedly, on courses that measure 7,500 yards, with greens stimping at Tour speeds, every time they go out..........not the odd bandit score......


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			Sawtooth..........EVERYONE can shoot 40 points +.............EVERYONE can have a blinder....( I shot a level par round when I was off 11)..........BUT...we are talking about people who are doing this repeatedly, on courses that measure 7,500 yards, with greens stimping at Tour speeds, every time they go out..........not the odd bandit score......
		
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Add in they are doing it in pressure conditions against other very good players with legitimate handicaps (not fake like these cheat have). There has to be something very wrong to be able to perform to that standard on those courses under that pressure and do it every time


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## GB72 (May 15, 2012)

I have never entered any National competitions (never felt that I was up to a decent enough standard) and based on this I am pretty glad I have not. Seems that if the prize table is big enough then people will do anything to win. 

GM did an article on cheating the other month but it was all pretty general. A real look at the winners of these national comps over the last few years would make very interesting reading. As has been proven on here, it is not hard to track peoples' comp and handicap history on Howdidido. That said, it would be legal minefield. You could not investigate and report without giving obvious indicators to the names of those involved and caling anyone a cheat would in all likelihood end up in court. Then you have to look at how you prove banditry. After all, their clubs saw fit to warrant that their handicap was accurate by giving them an official one and maintaining it so, even if it is protected, how do you prove it.


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			Sawtooth..........EVERYONE can shoot 40 points +.............EVERYONE can have a blinder....( I shot a level par round when I was off 11)..........BUT...we are talking about people who are doing this repeatedly, on courses that measure 7,500 yards, with greens stimping at Tour speeds, every time they go out..........not the odd bandit score......
		
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I hear what you are saying. If the same guy hits 43 pts and wins a national competition 3 years in a row of 13 then he's a bandit

However, if he's done it off 13, then off 11 and then off 9 then he's winning fairly in my book because his handicap is dropping all the while.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

GB72 said:



			After all, their clubs saw fit to warrant that their handicap was accurate by giving them an official one and maintaining it so, even if it is protected, how do you prove it.
		
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Shame on the clubs..they are as gulity  as the players in my opinon.....time  they grew a pair and  disowned these cheats


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## USER1999 (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			I hear what you are saying. If the same guy hits 43 pts and wins a national competition 3 years in a row of 13 then he's a bandit

However, if he's done it off 13, then off 11 and then off 9 then he's winning fairly in my book because his handicap is dropping all the while.
		
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Sorry mate, winning a national competition is a very rare event. To do it twice, is unbelievable. More than that, even in a different national comp, is unheard of, and firmly in bandit country.

Has any one ever won the lottery twice?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			I hear what you are saying. If the same guy hits 43 pts and wins a national competition 3 years in a row of 13 then he's a bandit

However, if he's done it off 13, then off 11 and then off 9 then he's winning fairly in my book because his handicap is dropping all the while.
		
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murphthemog said:



			Sorry mate, winning a national competition is a very rare event. To do it twice, is unbelievable. More than that, even in a different national comp, is unheard of, and firmly in bandit country.

Has any one ever won the lottery twice?
		
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The problem is the handicap isn't coming down at all. It just seems to stagnate at 13 or whatever. It would seem they do the bare minimum to get an active handicap without jepordising their position and then swan off and cheat nationally and internationally without a shred of conscience. Even the pros don't go back to the same events and win it every year


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## GB72 (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			Shame on the clubs..they are as gulity  as the players in my opinon.....time  they grew a pair and  disowned these cheats
		
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I agree but what you have to do is prove cheating and if the club sticks up for the cheat then it is damned difficult to take the matter further. Perhaps the answer is for the competition organisers to insist that each entrant who reaches a certain stage (semi final lets say) has to produce a declaration from the handicap secretary as to the accuracy of the handicap. Put some liability on the club if there is proven doubt about the handicap. Perhaps even ask the club to produce handicap and competition histories for the finalists.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

who are these guys playing with each week. i wouldnt sign any of my mates cards if i thought they were sandbagging. blowing up on the last holes on purpose to get a 0.1! my mates do that of their own accord.


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## Imurg (May 15, 2012)

They probably play Swindles and Roll-ups all year - except the required 3 comps to keep the handicap active.

If that's the case then they're not cheating as such - they're playing the system and it's the System that's at fault.
I suspect, however, that some serious handicap protection goes on so the legitimacy of the handicaps has to be questionable.

But it's proving it - not impossible, but bloody difficult.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

quick question here as i get the feeling it could be quite different in england. do you guys just put your name down for a time to play,say for example a stableford club comp or can you just roll up at any time with 3 pals and enter?


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## Imurg (May 15, 2012)

Depends on the systems at the club and what the event is.

I only play Roll-up Medals/Stablefords at my place because that's all we get as Midweek members.
they have drawn comps at weekends - name down, draw made, off you go.......


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## USER1999 (May 15, 2012)

Imurg said:



			They probably play Swindles and Roll-ups all year - except the required 3 comps to keep the handicap active.

If that's the case then they're not cheating as such - they're playing the system and it's the System that's at fault.
I suspect, however, that some serious handicap protection goes on so the legitimacy of the handicaps has to be questionable.

But it's proving it - not impossible, but bloody difficult.
		
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Kind of, but any one who shoots consecutive great scores, in a national comp, year on year, and peaks shooting 40 odd points off 3/4 on a European tour course set up at 7500 yards is clearly cheating.


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

im not familar with the term roll up? does that mean literally roll up with your mates and play? 

at my club it is only captains day and presidents day that you have to put your name down and a draw is made. for the rest you just have to have 3members and i think only 2 members for a club confined.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

Imurg said:



			If that's the case then they're not cheating as such - they're playing the system and it's the System that's at fault.
		
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don't agree with this Ian.........I could have played the system on Sunday by putting in a supplementary and going up to 8.5 to gain an extra shot..........I didn't, because i didn't think it was the right thing to do........it's all about integrity at the end of the day............and these guys don't have any.......


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## USER1999 (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			im not familar with the term roll up? does that mean literally roll up with your mates and play? 

at my club it is only captains day and presidents day that you have to put your name down and a draw is made. for the rest you just have to have 3members and i think only 2 members for a club confined.
		
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A roll up is a swindle, etc, where there are tee times assigned for a group of players, who deal cards or draw straws to decide who goes out together. Any one can join. Money in the pot for the winner, who spends it on beer, and financially loses out.


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## Imurg (May 15, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Kind of, but any one who shoots consecutive great scores, in a national comp, year on year, and peaks shooting 40 odd points off 3/4 on a European tour course set up at 7500 yards is clearly cheating.
		
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I hear you but if they're following the handicapping rules by putting 3 cards in a year - and they can be dog-cards - then it's not strictly cheating. The system allows them to do it. It's immoral and they'd get lynched if there's any justice in the World but they're playing the system to the limits.
Short of putting every card in from every round we play - what's the options...?


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

rickg said:



			these folks are cheats...out and out..........justify it as much as you want.............but I'm fed up of standing alongside people having paid my Â£250 and knowing that I don't stand a cat in hells chance............

the more I think about it, the angrier it's making me.. ( that may also be the Grolsch...).......
		
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What have we told you about drinking more than 1 pint? C'mon Rick, back to the lemonade!

Seriously though, it's about the taking part... if you're not going to enjoy being there then don't pay your money. I wish I could afford it, more to the point I wish I could afford it and be happy coming away with only (my usual) 26pts. Would I enter on the off chance I could hook up a good round and possibly make it through to the next round..... if I could afford it.

Once you've paid you've really got to not worry about what anyone else is doing, you're paying just to be there.... oh, go on then..... have another Grolsh then get Murph tucked up in bed..... ALONE


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			A roll up is a swindle, etc, where there are tee times assigned for a group of players, who deal cards or draw straws to decide who goes out together. Any one can join. Money in the pot for the winner, who spends it on beer, and financially loses out.
		
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ive seen these terms before but didnt know what they ment. from that above post, does the winner lose money? strange concept!


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			quick question here as i get the feeling it could be quite different in england. do you guys just put your name down for a time to play,say for example a stableford club comp or can you just roll up at any time with 3 pals and enter?
		
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At our place we put our names on a sheet and the draw is then random. You dont get to choose who you play with, although medals groups are ordered by handicap, lowest out first so you get to play with usually the same group of people.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

Imurg said:



			I hear you but if they're following the handicapping rules by putting 3 cards in a year - and they can be dog-cards - then it's not strictly cheating. The system allows them to do it. It's immoral and they'd get lynched if there's any justice in the World but they're playing the system to the limits.
Short of putting every card in from every round we play - what's the options...?
		
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Again...the option is play the system or don't play the system......moral integrity is the delineator here....some have it....some don't.


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## sawtooth (May 15, 2012)

Does anybody know if the scores in these major comps are fed back to the home club? I sincerely hope that they are so that the guy gets a cut.

I've played in regional heats on neutral courses and the result shows up in my handicap masters scoreboard and I get adjusted accordingly. 

Presumably this guy would have played a few qualifiers on the way to the final so he must have been cut along the way. If not then there lies the problem.


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## rickg (May 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			What have we told you about drinking more than 1 pint? C'mon Rick, back to the lemonade!

Seriously though, it's about the taking part... if you're not going to enjoy being there then don't pay your money 

Once you've paid you've really got to not worry about what anyone else is doing, you're paying just to be there
		
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James, 

It would never stop me entering...just winds me up that the same names win every year in different competitions, for great prizes.........and nothing ever seems to get done about it.......

Personally I think these major amateur competition organisers have a duty to ensure the players that win aren't bringing the game into disrepute..... probably about time the R&A got involved....


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			At our place we put our names on a sheet and the draw is then random. You dont get to choose who you play with, although medals groups are ordered by handicap, lowest out first so you get to play with usually the same group of people.
		
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thats pretty good. i do enjoy the days where its drawn but as i say its only twice a year or so. good to play with random people. i suppose its easier for bandits to lurk within these games as you wouldnt know if someone was holding back or not playing to their true potential. i would know if any of my playing partners was holding back. they are an honest bunch and are trying their best to get cuts. the way it should be. one of my buds won a nationl qualifier two weeks ago and is playing in september at lurgan golf club. he plays off 19 and was raging when he was told that his handicap wouldnt be cut as it was placing on the fairways. i wonder will he run into any bandits at that tournament!


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## CMAC (May 15, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry mate, winning a national competition is a very rare event. To do it twice, is unbelievable. More than that, even in a different national comp, is unheard of, and firmly in bandit country.

Has any one ever won the lottery twice?
		
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I have!  a tenner on the wed lotto then Â£2.60 on the Friday Euro lottery.............it can be done...I'm proof.


Real, true, in your face blatant bandits that boast about protecting their h/cap need sorted by their own clubs, or the clubs themselves are just as guilty imo!


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## JustOne (May 15, 2012)

Good luck for your round Rick, bang 'em in!


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## williamalex1 (May 15, 2012)

from june to september a few of us play a midweek medal and a weekend medal . plus two away open medal competitions every week ,from  [ the wee yellow book ] some guys play two comps in the one day. all away scores must be sent back to your home club. which can result in up to . 5  per week handicap rise if your having a bad patch or cut even more if your playing well. If you don't return ALL your AWAY OFFICIAL COMPS. scores TO YOUR HOME CLUB you ARE CHEATING. most clubs here  send your results back to your club anyway  via internet. it's a nightmare for the handicap sec.but tough luck . IT SHOULD REQUIRE MORE THAN 3 CARDS PER SEASON  TO MAINTAIN A HANDICAP


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## garyinderry (May 15, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			from june to september a few of us play a midweek medal and a weekend medal . plus two away open medal competitions every week ,from  [ the wee yellow book ] some guys play two comps in the one day. all away scores must be sent back to your home club. which can result in up to . 5  per week handicap rise if your having a bad patch or cut even more if your playing well. If you don't return ALL your AWAY OFFICIAL COMPS. scores TO YOUR HOME CLUB you ARE CHEATING. most clubs here  send your results back to your club anyway  via internet. it's a nightmare for the handicap sec.but tough luck . *IT SHOULD REQUIRE MORE THAN 3 CARDS PER SEASON  TO MAINTAIN A HANDICAP*

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agreed!


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## bobmac (May 16, 2012)

So, on one hand you have some cheats playing 3 comps a year and playing badly to keep their handicap high so they can win big prizes.
Then, during the rest of the year, they only play with their mates in roll ups or hide in 4BBB or 4 somes.

On the other hand, you have Congu sending out directives making it very difficult for handicap secs to cut their members.  
Am I missing something here?


I am pleased a little that Congu have admitted they were wrong and had gone too far and have now made some effort to improve their system by introducing the ESR which allows THE COMPUTER to spot golfers who are consistently playing below their handicaps.

My problem still is that a golfer cant go a see his/her h/sec and ask for a cut. Well, he/she can ask but will probably be told that Congu know what's best for them. :angry:

I feel sorry for the poor h/sec who has to trawl through reams of rules and regulations on what they can and (more often) cannot do.


And to everybody else, if you have a h/sec thats a jumped up ex traffic warden who loves the power of his job, get rid of him/her and get someone in who's got some common sense. If the computer will allow it that is.

So come on Congu, stop being arsey and let the club H/sec do his job  properly and if a player deserves a cut and asks for one...give him one  (as it were ).

They should be making it more difficult for people to cheat, not making it easier.


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## Smiffy (May 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			My problem still is that a golfer cant go a see his/her h/sec and ask for a cut. Well, he/she can ask but will probably be told that Congu know what's best for them. :angry:
		
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But Bob. The biggest problem is that the last thing the golfers we are talking about are going to do is go and voluntarily ask for a cut. They spend their whole lives avoiding the very things that will get their handicaps down, so this would be like slashing their wrists.
All power to the guys that genuinly want to get down. When I was first a member at Crowborough I was always going to the secretary with cards from other courses, trying to get cut. I desperately wanted to be able to stand in the bar and say to people, when they asked, that I played off 10, not 18. A sense of pride if you like. But these people don't want to do that. They are quite content to slip into their cars after the game and drive home, safe in the knowledge that they have tucked somebody else up.

I am off to Turkey next week, 16 of us going. The guy that has organised it all has done a brilliant job (and no, it's not me!). But the one area that is causing more grief than anything else is handicaps. All the guys going have one, but a few of them are "society" handicaps, not congu ones. A couple of other guys have handicaps that have been worked out from online scoring systems.
I only know 3 of the others guys that are going.....Ray Taylor, Alan Bannister and Greg Lindley. I know their handicaps are genuine. But I bet that in amongst the other dozen guys there are a few "dodgy" ones.
We had a meeting a few months ago, where the subject of handicaps was discussed. How could we deal with somebody winning every day and taking the "enjoyment" away from the other guys. Talk got around to cutting the daily winner 3 shots, runner up 2 and the 3rd placed man 1 shot to try to even the playing field up a little.
But supposing, just supposing, that I go out on the first day and have a good day (in comparison to everybody else) and win with 32 points. Is it fair that I get chopped 3 shots? I haven't even played to my handicap!! Why should I be penalised just because the other 15 guys chopped it around?


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## bobmac (May 16, 2012)

But Bob. The biggest problem is that the last thing the golfers we are  talking about are going to do is go and voluntarily ask for a cut. They  spend their whole lives avoiding the very things that will get their  handicaps down, so this would be like slashing their wrists.
		
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I know I was just using it as an example of how a h/sec cant even cut someone who wants cutting, never mind those who dont.
I'd like to ask a question of those who have been involved with handicaps for a few years....

I may have made this up or dreamed it but ....
In the passed, when a h/sec was considering chopping someone, was he/she allowed to take into consideration information about the players current playing ability from his/her peers?
I'm sure I saw that written down somewhere?


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## bobmac (May 16, 2012)

If you really want to get rid of those bandits who keep turning up off 10-15 handicp and taking away the spoils, make the comps Cat I only.
Then see them appear next year off 5.4


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## Whee (May 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If you really want to get rid of those bandits who keep turning up off 10-15 handicp and taking away the spoils, make the comps Cat I only.
Then see them appear next year off 5.4
		
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I'm surprised something like this doesn't happen already Bob, maybe it does and i'm being a spud about it.

Surely National & International competitions should have handicap categories already? Maybe more than Cat I, II and III.

Have your big prizes for the guys playing from 0-5, they're the better players and as such the prizes should reflect it.

Lesser prizes for the boys on 6-12 and so on from 13-20 & 21-28 etc. If the prizes for winning a competition reflect the category you've won, then the incentive to keep the handicap high is removed. I've watched lads at my club on similar handicaps to my own, win a new set of woods/pair of hybrids/wedges and so on. Remove the temptation.


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## Smiffy (May 16, 2012)

Whee said:



			Lesser prizes for the boys on 6-12 and so on from 13-20 & 21-28 etc. If the prizes for winning a competition reflect the category you've won, then the incentive to keep the handicap high is removed.
		
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Yep. All expenses paid trip to the Algarve for the finals.....Cat I golfers go on Concorde. Cat II go on an airbus. Cat III go by dredger. Cat IV walk.
Sorted.


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## Whee (May 16, 2012)

I was gonna say I wouldn't fancy the walk, but that would mean having to win - i've got more chance of plaiting fog haha!


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## Foxholer (May 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I know I was just using it as an example of how a h/sec cant even cut someone who wants cutting, never mind those who dont.
I'd like to ask a question of those who have been involved with handicaps for a few years....

I may have made this up or dreamed it but ....
In the passed, when a h/sec was considering chopping someone, was he/she allowed to take into consideration information about the players current playing ability from his/her peers?
I'm sure I saw that written down somewhere?
		
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Yes Bob, and these are all still available to H'cap Secretary.

At a previous club, where I knew the H/S well he stated that there were 4 types of players.
1. Those who were trying to get as low as poss and occasionally asked for a cut.
2. Those that didn't know/care about the system and simply accepted what the system did.
3. Those, normally Seniors, with 'vanity handicaps' who couldn't go up as fast as there ability was dropping.
4. Those that 'managed' their handicaps to as high a level as possible.

He said that this latter category was the only one he spent much time wiith - as he was obsessed with avoiding the bad publicity that members could bring winning Corporate days off dodgy handicaps. 

It was handy for him that there was also a 'serious money' swindle that provided good info. as did the other swindles, on those that played consistently above their actual number.

What Congu is trying to do is to remove the inconsistent application of those clauses. By letting the system handle a greater percentage of the anomolies, it is believed that handicaps across the country will be more equatable - which is what is meant to happen.

Still doesn't handle the bandits, who really are cheats in my book. Naming and shaming the club as well as the player might help.

Cat 1 only is not going to happen though. Takes too many participants out of the equation - and 1 of the guys that h/sec monitored was actually Cat 1 who played lots of Pairs/Mixed comps with prizes. Some sort of 'banditry check' is needed. Finals qualification not being automatic, but by invitation - after checks made - might help. Still a bit of a minefield though.


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## CMAC (May 16, 2012)

I gave up on the 18 h/cap comps, unless I shot 66 scratch I had no chance as there was ALWAYS a 61 or 62 in there.

Now only play club comps or cat1 opens or some that go up to 6


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## HomerJSimpson (May 16, 2012)

Whee said:



			I'm surprised something like this doesn't happen already Bob, maybe it does and i'm being a spud about it.

Surely National & International competitions should have handicap categories already? Maybe more than Cat I, II and III.

Have your big prizes for the guys playing from 0-5, they're the better players and as such the prizes should reflect it.
		
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The GM comp laast year was categorised in the regional qualifiers and the final and so it gave forum members and readers an equal opportunity and the low guys could still compete and not get blown away by a 14-20 guy coming in with 40+ points. 

In the final itself, Bladeplayer robbed the filed (ok me) playing off nine. In fact our three ball was made up by a guy off 4 called Mike Chapman who also managed the same 34 point total Bill and I achieved. Basically our group cleaned up. The point was lower handicappers like Bil and Mike were able to compete and there was a 0-12 category and a 13+ for the final.

I think the problem lies with things like the Volvo matchplays and other events where these cheats (no other polite description) can play off their artificial handicaps and clean up. Even in things like the Trilby, off 3/4 off 13 they are still only playing off 10 and clearly that is still at least 4-5 shots above their acutal handicap level anyway so the cut doesn't affect them.

I think the fact that they are able to reproduce these results in such prestigious events year inand year out and can rock up on EXACTLY the same figure each year should set alarm bells ringing. I guess one solution although not the most practical is that you have to have played say 5-10 club qualifiers in a year before playing in these and be able to produce the results (HDID or other systems should be able to print these) and that like handicap certificates you have to produce them on the day. It is the fact that these guys are hiding in club events that aren't qualifiers that makes them harder to spot


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## seochris (May 16, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			Does anybody know if the scores in these major comps are fed back to the home club? I sincerely hope that they are so that the guy gets a cut.

I've played in regional heats on neutral courses and the result shows up in my handicap masters scoreboard and I get adjusted accordingly. 

Presumably this guy would have played a few qualifiers on the way to the final so he must have been cut along the way. If not then there lies the problem.
		
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On your last point, No not really...this was a match play event for the first 5 rounds....so no scores as such only playing the opponent in front of you.

The 5 rounds got you into the regional qualifiers when all of a sudden it switched to a stableford with 3/4 handicap.  This format was ostensibly to 'eliminate' the bandit element...however i think in practice it achieves exactly the opposite!


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## road2ruin (May 16, 2012)

Interesting thread and quite close to home for me at the moment or at least a concern I have about my own golf.

I took up the game about 18 months ago and throughly enjoy it. Having played 20 years of cricket I found that my eye for a ball meant that I'm an alright player and with a few lessons I've started going in the right direction.

3 of us joined a local 9 hole course last year to really give the game ago and 2 of us have joined a 'proper' 18 hole course which we play our first roll up with members this coming Saturday morning.

Now the other guy has played golf for years, his handicap is 12 and generally he plays to around that score i.e. he's not going to have any issues of being tagged as a bandit. Now, for me, my official handicap is 21 however I have played a lot of golf in the last 6-8 months and most of those rounds were with friends and so didn't get handed in. Sometimes I play to a lower standard (although I'm also very capable of playing off 28 and beyond) and the way I hit a ball (not always straight) some would wonder whether that handicap if correct.

Bearing in mind that this is a new club and the last thing I want to do is be tagged with the 'bandit' tag what should I do? The big issue is that I blow really hot and cold. I really can play 6-8 shots under my handicap regularly but then go through other periods of playing well above it!!


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## duncan mackie (May 16, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I guess one solution although not the most practical is that you have to have played say 5-10 club qualifiers in a year before playing in these and be able to produce the results (HDID or other systems should be able to print these) and that like handicap certificates you have to produce them on the day. It is the fact that these guys are hiding in club events that aren't qualifiers that makes them harder to spot
		
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the Volvo requires play in 3 club Q events in the year prior

I think the entire point is clouded by the reference to anything other than play in the particular events - such qualification requirements are simply a process step to be overcome, nothing more. They are meaningless to someone who sets out to manipulate their handicap.

Changing the handicap system to, for example, the US one, would be even worse as it provides the tools for huge handicap manipulation.

As has been mentioned, a small part lies with the clubs and handicap committees but the former are struggling for membership and the latter are (generally) unpaid and elected...

The organisers priority is entrants (as they see it); and there will be balances struck in a lot of areas! It is entirely possible that the decision to make any stroke play rounds off 3/4 handicap is for the stated reason and the impossibility of these having Q status is an unintended consequence - it's possible...


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## seochris (May 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I know I was just using it as an example of how a h/sec cant even cut someone who wants cutting, never mind those who dont.
I'd like to ask a question of those who have been involved with handicaps for a few years....

I may have made this up or dreamed it but ....
In the passed, when a h/sec was considering chopping someone, was he/she allowed to take into consideration information about the players current playing ability from his/her peers?
I'm sure I saw that written down somewhere?
		
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Yes I believe so....I was cut on observation from a committee memeber i was playing with who said that he was going to speak to the h/cp sec.  I had no issue with this as i was of 20 at the time.  Anyway they cut me 3 shots to 17.....

(I had just come back to the game after a 6 year lay off and had previously played off 8.  The 20 handicap was given to me by the club but it had a 9 and an 8 on the card and after the first 4 holes were 1 over...so i really cannot fathom how they came up with 20!....my final score was 91 on that round but if you take out the 9 and 8 it would have been around 83!)


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## patricks148 (May 16, 2012)

seochris said:



			Yes I believe so....I was cut on observation from a committee memeber i was playing with who said that he was going to speak to the h/cp sec.  I had no issue with this as i was of 20 at the time.  Anyway they cut me 3 shots to 17.....

(I had just come back to the game after a 6 year lay off and had previously played off 8.  The 20 handicap was given to me by the club but it had a 9 and an 8 on the card and after the first 4 holes were 1 over...so i really cannot fathom how they came up with 20!....my final score was 91 on that round but if you take out the 9 and 8 it would have been around 83!)
		
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when we get a game then remind me not to play you for Money


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## seochris (May 16, 2012)

No, you will be fine at Fortrose.... i cant do 20 mph cross winds....!


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## rosecott (May 16, 2012)

seochris said:



			Yes I believe so....I was cut on observation from a committee memeber i was playing with who said that he was going to speak to the h/cp sec.  I had no issue with this as i was of 20 at the time.  Anyway they cut me 3 shots to 17.....

(I had just come back to the game after a 6 year lay off and had previously played off 8.  The 20 handicap was given to me by the club but it had a 9 and an 8 on the card and after the first 4 holes were 1 over...so i really cannot fathom how they came up with 20!....my final score was 91 on that round but if you take out the 9 and 8 it would have been around 83!)
		
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How long ago was this?

Your post reads as if you submitted only one card for handicap - perhaps I misinterpreted that and you are talking about the best of the minimum 3 cards you need to submit. If the 9 and 8 were on par 5s, they would have been adjusted to 7s or 6s if they were par 4s. The adjusted card would then be 88 maximum or possibly 86. If your SSS was 72, say, the card would suggest a maximum 16 handicap and your previous history of playing to 8 would then be thrown into the mix to possibly reduce it below 16. How they got to 20 is a mystery.

As to a 3 shot deduction based on observation by a committee member, that I'm not very sure about. I know it still happens at some clubs but it should never be on the opinion of one man, committee member or not. The handicap committee should consider all available information but one man saying "I played with him, 3 shot cut" is not how to run a handicap system.


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## seochris (May 16, 2012)

rosecott said:



			How long ago was this?

Your post reads as if you submitted only one card for handicap - perhaps I misinterpreted that and you are talking about the best of the minimum 3 cards you need to submit. If the 9 and 8 were on par 5s, they would have been adjusted to 7s or 6s if they were par 4s. The adjusted card would then be 88 maximum or possibly 86. If your SSS was 72, say, the card would suggest a maximum 16 handicap and your previous history of playing to 8 would then be thrown into the mix to possibly reduce it below 16. How they got to 20 is a mystery.

As to a 3 shot deduction based on observation by a committee member, that I'm not very sure about. I know it still happens at some clubs but it should never be on the opinion of one man, committee member or not. The handicap committee should consider all available information but one man saying "I played with him, 3 shot cut" is not how to run a handicap system.
		
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This was at a club in the midlands of which I am no longer a member....yes it was on the basis of just 1 card or so if i remember correctly...and was just 'to get me going'.  

The only point i was making here was the fact that it is possible to be cut by observation....or so it seems to me!


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## seochris (May 16, 2012)

Perhaps we should start a tour ourselves and call it the Sombrero Tour....everyone who enters must have a Pancho Villa droop moustache and we can euphamise it by calling it the Bandits tour or BT for short!   :lol:


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## rickg (Aug 10, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry mate, winning a national competition is a very rare event. To do it twice, is unbelievable. More than that, even in a different national comp, is unheard of, and firmly in bandit country.

Has any one ever won the lottery twice?
		
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it won't come as any surprise to see that Mr Voce is once again through to the Trilby Tour Final (Aug 16th). 

His club handicap has come down 1 shot although it looks like it should have been much more. He played a club comp Sunday and was sitting pretty at 2 under gross after 15, but then somehow finished double bogey, bogey, bogey!!!!.....hmmmmm.  Still ended up with 40 points and a cut to 5.3......looks like he didn't put the brakes on in time!!

Tommy Muldoon also there again.......There's a bookies now on course for the final....wonder what odds you would get on Voce?


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## LCVreg (Aug 10, 2012)

If this country had a sensible handicap system that did not exclude the 80% of golfers who do not belong to clubs, and allowed sensible handicapping for society meetings, then there might be less bandits around - The US Slope system is the only way forward and until this country adopts this system as indeed virtually the entire rest of the world has, there is no hope. Congu needs to sort this and soon, for the sake of all amateur golfers in the UK


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## North Mimms (Aug 10, 2012)

rickg said:



			it won't come as any surprise to see that Mr Voce is once again through to the Trilby Tour Final (Aug 16th). 

His club handicap has come down 1 shot although it looks like it should have been much more. He played a club comp Sunday and was sitting pretty at 2 under gross after 15, but then somehow finished double bogey, bogey, bogey!!!!.....hmmmmm.  Still ended up with 40 points and a cut to 5.3......looks like he didn't put the brakes on in time!!

Tommy Muldoon also there again.......There's a bookies now on course for the final....wonder what odds you would get on Voce?
		
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How many times is this?

Don't the organisers think it "funny" that the same people have qualified Again?


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## Hobbit (Aug 10, 2012)

LCVreg said:



			If this country had a sensible handicap system that did not exclude the 80% of golfers who do not belong to clubs, and allowed sensible handicapping for society meetings, then there might be less bandits around - The US Slope system is the only way forward and until this country adopts this system as indeed virtually the entire rest of the world has, there is no hope. Congu needs to sort this and soon, for the sake of all amateur golfers in the UK
		
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And if someone deliberately played badly over a period of time, in effect to manage their handicap up, what do you think the result would be irrespective of the system adopted? Until someone takes responsibility at a national level and chops the handicaps of serial pot hunters there will always be guys playing off deliberately managed, false handicaps.

Clubs need to give a strong mandate to the national unions for them to seriously manage this issue before it ruins Open golf competitions - our club sec persuaded me not to enter the regional round of a national comp because x and y were in it again and "have had more foreign holidays than Hitler." People know who they are but nowt's happening about it.


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## Val (Aug 10, 2012)

As long as big comps are full then the bandits will continue to get away with it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 10, 2012)

It is always going to be an issue. We were fortunate (Hawkeye and I) that the two pairs we faced in the Volvo were pretty accurately handicapped. I know Bash had a "hot" guy in the singles and was way under when it came to a conclusion. Are clubs really that fussed as its all positive feedback for them.

Mr Voce would seem to have form on an ongoing basis and the conclusion in the last comp would seem to be rather strange for a player of his quality. It smacks of protection but I guess nothing can or will ever be proved


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## BTatHome (Aug 10, 2012)

I know one of the guys in the last group (I'd say his handicap is pretty much spot on), and I know one in a group a few back from the leaders...and his about 6 more than it should be (hardly plays any comps but ensures he goes up when he does) ... And has won a few major team comps recently with mega prizes on offer (his partner is another one with an inflated h/cap)


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## Imurg (Aug 10, 2012)

This is why I don't enter these National comps anymore.
Got taken to the cleaners waay too many times by dubious handicaps...


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## rickg (Aug 10, 2012)

BTatHome said:



			I know one of the guys in the last group (I'd say his handicap is pretty much spot on), and I know one in a group a few back from the leaders...and his about 6 more than it should be (hardly plays any comps but ensures he goes up when he does) ... And has won a few major team comps recently with mega prizes on offer (his partner is another one with an inflated h/cap)
		
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BT.....it's my pet hate at the moment and I actually want to do something about I feel that strongly about it. First step is going to be writing to the R&A to see what their views are about these guys bringing the game into disrepute.  I think their home clubs should be doing more as I also feel it reflects badly on them. I know if was a H/c sec and one of my members was walking all over these comps, regularly shooting way under their H/caps, then I'd feel like I wasn't doing my job properly and that would reflect poorly on my position.


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## Jaymosafehands (Aug 10, 2012)

rickg said:



			it won't come as any surprise to see that Mr Voce is once again through to the Trilby Tour Final (Aug 16th). 

His club handicap has come down 1 shot although it looks like it should have been much more. He played a club comp Sunday and was sitting pretty at 2 under gross after 15, but then somehow finished double bogey, bogey, bogey!!!!.....hmmmmm.  Still ended up with 40 points and a cut to 5.3......looks like he didn't put the brakes on in time!!

Tommy Muldoon also there again.......There's a bookies now on course for the final....wonder what odds you would get on Voce?
		
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In fairness Vocey qualifies automatically as he won last year (and the matchplay event, but don't let that stop the television spectacular).

Mr Maldoon on the other hand, well, as someone has said, he's the best highest handicapped single figure golfer around.... 

I've done it wrong, I've qualified for the final and got mu handicap cut 2 shots in the last 2 weeks. Bugger!


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## rickg (Aug 10, 2012)

Jaymosafehands said:



			In fairness Vocey qualifies automatically as he won last year (and the matchplay event, but don't let that stop the television spectacular).

Mr Maldoon on the other hand, well, as someone has said, he's the best highest handicapped single figure golfer around.... 

I've done it wrong, I've qualified for the final and got mu handicap cut 2 shots in the last 2 weeks. Bugger!
		
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OK mate...didn't realise there was automatic qualification.....good luck next week..........nice to see you getting your H/C down...you must be playing well.........


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## Jaymosafehands (Aug 10, 2012)

rickg said:



			OK mate...didn't realise there was automatic qualification.....good luck next week..........nice to see you getting your H/C down...you must be playing well.........
		
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He's still a fÂ¶Â§#âˆžÂ¢g bandit tho!! 

Thanks, Been a long year up to now, but it's 'clicked' these last couple of weeks. If you hear a noise next Thursday morning it's just my wheels falling off....


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2012)

We have a member who has an 'away' handicap.  He wins comp after comp but never gets cut at our club due to his 'away' status.  Our club say they send his results to the other club that he hardly ever plays at but nothing changes.  What a cheat!


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## duncan mackie (Aug 11, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			We have a member who has an 'away' handicap.  He wins comp after comp but never gets cut at our club due to his 'away' status.  Our club say they send his results to the other club that he hardly ever plays at but nothing changes.  What a cheat!
		
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something wrong here

1. away status means that another club administers his handicap - it is adjusted for Q scores at your club in exactly the same way as everyone elses
2. it's the player's responsibility to advise changes etc, it's also his responsibility to manage his handicap down as well!
3. if there is any suggestion of impropriety your handicap secretary should simply request a copy of the members handicap record sheet from his administering club.


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