# Suspension of search.....



## Imurg (May 30, 2012)

This came up today...

Fragger hit a ball into some thick rough from the tee. A provo was played and we got to the area and began a search. After a couple of minutes a solo player appeared on the tee and we called him through. As we were in the line of fire should he slice we stopped searching to keep an eye on the stroke. As soon as we realised the ball wasn't going anywhere near us we continued.
All in all I reckon we waited about 30 seconds.
Now, as it happens, we couldn't find the ball, but would we have been able to add those 30 seconds onto the search time - as we'd suspended the search for potential safety reasons? If we'd found the ball after 5 minutes and 10 seconds, say, would Fragger have been able to play it?

The Rules seem pretty firm on the 5 minutes.........


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## North Mimms (May 30, 2012)

Mmm... good question.
Fairness makes me think that since you are allowed to search for 5 minutes, you should "stop the clock" while waiting for other chap to play.
Suspect the real rules say otherwise


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## rosecott (May 30, 2012)

I believe the only occasion on which you can suspend your search and resume after a break is when play has been officially suspended. In the normal course events, it's 5 minutes from the time you start searching.


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## duncan mackie (May 30, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I believe the only occasion on which you can suspend your search and resume after a break is when play has been officially suspended. In the normal course events, it's 5 minutes from the time you start searching.
		
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yep - whilst there are things that can interrupt the 5 mins (play of a wrong ball) in general once you start the clock isn't going to stop....


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## connor (May 30, 2012)

Just out of interest does someone stand there with a stop watch for an exact timing?


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## CMAC (May 30, 2012)

I've never seen anyone start timing or even looking at their watch when they get to where their ball might be, I've played in medals up to 36 hole scratch comps with Walker cup guys and NO-ONE does this........


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## palindromicbob (May 30, 2012)

North Mimms has it spot on. I think equity would come into this. Equity is a decision that is fair under the rules the of golf.  

 Everyone had moved away from the area where the ball was thought to lie and the search had stopped. You were all following etiquette when the search stopped.  I'd say the only fair decision is that the clock had been stopped and starts again when the search resumes.

Had the 5mins 10 seconds situation you mention above arose and someone in the group called on it I'd tell them to remove the stick they had so I could replace it with what ever club I could get into my hand first.


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

As I see it, the  obstacle to applying  equity to this is that Rule 1-4 which allows for equity to be  the basis of a ruling,  is specifically for occasions in which "a point in dispute is not covered by the Rules".  In this instance there is both a Definition and an applicable  Rule (27-1c).  The only related Decision is the one concerning suspension of play.  So in the absence of any exception being made for allowing players to play through, the Rule has to be applied  - which is, I expect, why both Rosecott and Duncan have  said the five minutes cannot be interrupted for the playing through.


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

So you are playing a short dogleg left with the 'corner' where your ball is lost being about 180 yards from the tee.
After searching for your ball for 2 minutes, you call the following player/group through and move across to the opposite rough for safety.
The group behind hit poor tee shots and takes them 5 minutes so get all their balls over the corner before you can safely return to your search. As far as I am concerned, you still have 3 mins left to find your ball.

If my opposition told me I had used up my 5 mins before I got back to resume my search, I would never play golf with that person again.


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			As far as I am concerned, you still have 3 mins left to find your ball.

If my opposition told me I had used up my 5 mins before I got back to resume my search, I would never play golf with that person again.
		
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Fine in a bounce game, but in a competition the individual can't decide which rules to apply and which to ignore and if your opponent correctly insists on a rule being applied it would be  a bit unfair  to ostracise him for it. Put yourself in the position of seeing a fellow competitor putting to a couple of inches from the hole and picking his ball up as a "gimme".   Would you not point out that he needs to hole out? And would you not be a bit taken aback if he refused ever to play with you again as a result?  Applying the rules in competition can't be a pick and mix arrangement whereas what you do in informal games is entirely up to you and the people you are playing with.  Mind you, I reckon it would be a strange bounce game where anyone even looked at their watch when searching for a ball. 

As far as I can see, interrupting a search to let a game through is not sanctioned in the rules - if it is, I'd be pleased to know what I've overlooked.


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

As far as I can see, interrupting a search to let a game through is not  sanctioned in the rules - if it is, I'd be pleased to know what I've  overlooked.
		
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I didn't say it was 'sanctioned in the rules'

And I would say there's a big difference between not holing out in a medal and not being allowed to look for your ball for 5 minutes.


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## Imurg (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So you are playing a short dogleg left with the 'corner' where your ball is lost being about 180 yards from the tee.
After searching for your ball for 2 minutes, you call the following player/group through and move across to the opposite rough for safety.
		
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This is a perfect example of what I'm questioning.
In this situation you are in direct line with tee shots. You have to let the group behind through so do you keep on searching and hope that a call of Fore comes before your skull is cracked by a ProV1 or do you stop, wait for the shot(s) to be played and then continue.
Safety has to come first and in a situation like this, if the rule is that you can't "stop the clock" until you resume the search then the rule is a poor one.


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

Bobmac.  I agree there is a big difference.  One is allowed in the Rules and other isn't. 

I suppose the hard answer to the safety point is that if it is unsafe to do so, you don't wave the following game through


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

Safety has to come first and in a situation like this, if the rule is  that you can't "stop the clock" until you resume the search then the  rule is a poor one.
		
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Especially when you've been standing on the opposite side of the fairway for 3 minutes waiting for the following group to play through and your opposition inform you your 5 mins are up and you have to go back to the tee and play again.


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## Twire (May 31, 2012)

I would add the time on. The rules state you have 5 minutes to search for your ball, if you stop searching and move away for safty reasons then surely you have not used your 5 minutes SEARCH time.


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## MashieNiblick (May 31, 2012)

I think the difficulty here is how the 5 minute search period is applied in the definition of lost ball.
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"A ball is deemed â€œlostâ€ if: 
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the playerâ€™s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it;"_

So strictly speaking you must find the ball within 5 minutes of when you _begun _the search. As others have said there is no provision to "stop the clock" apart from if play is suspended.

Whilst there may be other "common sense" situations when the search period may be interupted there seems to be no other provision or guidance in the Rules for the search period to be suspended. Might be worth an e-mail to the R&A to clarify the position if search has to be suspended for safety reasons while other players play through.


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

Unless I was on the Tour I'd move aside and allow my opponent to continue searching after the following group has played through.


... out of interest what happens on a call up hole?


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

Might be worth an e-mail to the R&A to clarify the position if  search has to be suspended for safety reasons while other players play  through.
		
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That was my thinking too. You suspend play while you get out of the road and resume play once the following group play through.
But will the rules experts allow you so suspend your own game for safety reasons ?


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

Just exploring a thought.  If for safety reasons you have to go across to the other side of the fairway to let the following game through, might it be possible that it would delay play less to complete the other 3 minutes of searching and move on?  It might not look that way to the game behind, but maybe could it be the case?

Still maintaining the distinction between what you might do in an informal bounce game and what you have to to in competition,  the  "common sense"  approach is just not available in the latter.  It's clear from the Definition and Rule 27-1c that there is no such option  .  The Decision that allows an interruption for suspension of play  refers to a period when play has stopped.  Play has not stopped during the time you have stepped aside to let a game play through so the sand in the 5 minute egg timer keeps flowing.  

By the way, I find it hard enough to know, understand and apply the Rules.  I don't do justifying them.


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			North Mimms has it spot on. I think equity would come into this. Equity is a decision that is fair under the rules the of golf.
		
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just as an aside because this crops up from time to time - 

equity is not about any concept of fairness - a ruling in equity is one that is consistent with other situations that have been ruled on. The fairness in this is consistency not 'fairness'.

If you think all the rules are fair - just look at the situation being discussed here!


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			That was my thinking too. You suspend play while you get out of the road and resume play once the following group play through.
But will the rules experts allow you so suspend your own game for safety reasons ?
		
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Bob,

If the game is a match then the rules would permit the players to agree to discontinue play in such a situation, and IMO it would be perfectly acceptable for the players to agree to 'stop the clock' on the search in the circumstances being discussed.

In a competition the committee become the only party able to make such a decision in the absence of lightening or sudden illness, as it is their responsibility to protect the interests of the rest of the field.


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

I'd imagine if your opponent got bitten by a snake whilst looking and went down like a sack of spuds the same rule would apply? In fact you could count down the minutes out loud..... 4 minutes..... 3 minutes....


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			But will the rules experts allow you so suspend your own game for safety reasons ?
		
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It's not what so-called "rules experts" allow you to do, but what the Rules allow.  Anyway, the answer to your question is yes,  players can suspend a game  but for reasons such as danger from  lightning or illness (6-8a)  These are situations in which the players have no control. In this situation, the players have a choice: they don't have to let the following game through if they think it will put themselves at risk.


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

From RandA....

*Q*: A player has been searching for his ball for three minutes when play is suspended. How much time is he allowed for further search? 

*A*: The player may continue searching for two more minutes. The suspension of play has no effect on the five-minute search period. Thus, even if the player searches for his ball during the suspension of play, he is still only permitted a total of five minutes to search for his ball.


I think allowing people to play through IS a suspension of play.... as you can't play whilst they are teeing off.


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

Another interesting one along the same vein......

*Q*: A player finds his ball in high rough after a two-minute search, leaves the area to get a club and, when he returns, is unable to find the ball. Is he allowed three minutes or five minutes to find his ball?

*A*: Three minutes


Notice how the clock stops?


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

"common sense"   approach is just not available in the latter(competition ).  It's clear from the  Definition and Rule 27-1c that there is no such option  .  The Decision  that allows an interruption for suspension of play  refers to* a period  when play has stopped.  Play has not stopped *during the time you have  stepped aside to let a game play through

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That would be the point you'd have to prove. That in your opinion, play HAS in fact stopped as you have stopped playing.


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

I think it's not about whether play has stopped.... it's whether the SEARCH has stopped or been interupted (see 2nd example posted) You have 5 mins of search time and as long as you are looking the time counts down.... if you pop off to go get a club the 'search time' has stopped... it would be the same for stepping aside to let someone through.... in my opinion.


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Another interesting one along the same vein......

*Q*: A player finds his ball in high rough after a two-minute search, leaves the area to get a club and, when he returns, is unable to find the ball. Is he allowed three minutes or five minutes to find his ball?

*A*: Three minutes


Notice how the clock stops?
		
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the clock stopped because he had found the ball!

in your previous quote play has been suspended in accordance with the rules, not a tea break etc...


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

Colin L said:



			It's not what so-called "rules experts" allow you to do, but what the Rules allow.  Anyway, the answer to your question is yes,  players can suspend a game  but for reasons such as danger from  lightning or illness (6-8a)  These are situations in which the players have no control. In this situation, the players have a choice: they don't have to let the following game through if they think it will put themselves at risk.
		
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As I have already posted above, I am afraid I disagree with this in the context of a match Colin. The players may agree to discontinue play in such a situation, and the clock could be stopped.


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

Thanks Duncan.  I didn't have time to acknowledge your point before going out for a golf practice. As can happen, your post was made while I was writing mine so it looks as if I was ignoring what you said.

 I hadn't thought of  the difference in matchplay so that was really helpful. The difference is, as you have said, that in matchplay what happens only affects the two sides whereas in stroke play there is the whole field to consider.


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

Are we even agreed that common sense would say the 5 minute clock SHOULD stop when the players stopped looking and started again when the search resumed ?


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## Birchy (May 31, 2012)

If any player in the group continues timing while letting a group through and then calls time just after you start searching again then he is bang out of order and i would tell him as well. Your allowed 5 mins searching time and as far as im concerned that only applies to the time you are actually searching for the ball.


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## palindromicbob (May 31, 2012)

I have emailed the R&A last night to get clirification on the matter just waiting for a response.


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## Birchy (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Are we even agreed that common sense would say the 5 minute clock SHOULD stop when the players stopped looking and started again when the search resumed ?
		
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Cant see how anybody could disagree surely?


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## chris661 (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			If any player in the group continues timing while letting a group through and then calls time just after you start searching again then he is bang out of order and i would tell him as well. Your allowed 5 mins searching time and as far as im concerned that only applies to the time you are actually searching for the ball.
		
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You are allowed 5 minutes from when the player starts searching, from reading the replies so far it would seem that there is no scope to stop the search to let someone through so unfortunately it is tough.


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## bladeplayer (May 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Are we even agreed that common sense would say the 5 minute clock SHOULD stop when the players stopped looking and started again when the search resumed ?
		
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Birchy said:



			Cant see how anybody could disagree surely?
		
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I agree with you in principal Bob/ Birchy but are you saying players should KNOWINGLY be allowed bend the rules ..


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## Birchy (May 31, 2012)

If people are going to try and screw me on a technicality like that rather than winning playing golf then i wouldnt let the group behind play through. If ive only got 5 minutes then balls to anybody else!


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## chris661 (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			If people are going to try and screw me on a technicality like that rather than winning playing golf then i wouldnt let the group behind play through. If ive only got 5 minutes then balls to anybody else!
		
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Ahh, but all the rules of golf are mere technicalities. So which other ones would you ignore then?


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## chrisd (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			If people are going to try and screw me on a technicality like that rather than winning playing golf then i wouldnt let the group behind play through. If ive only got 5 minutes then balls to anybody else!
		
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But then, what other rules of the game would you bend/break if you didn't like them?


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

@ Bobmac
 I perhaps should have said that play has not been _discontinued_ while you search for a ball rather than play has not _stopped_ since that is the word used in Rule 6-8  where there is a short list of the situations in which players are allowed to discontinue play.  It does not include discontinuing play while allowing another game to play through.

@JustOne
There's nothing said to modify the Definition of a lost ball that would allow you to stop the search time while going for a club, going for cheese sarny, going for a pee..... or letting another game through.

I think this is just one of these situations where a course of action seems sensible and fair yet is not available to us within the Rules.

I think I would put a modest  bet on the R&A reply being that it is not permitted to stop and restart  the search time to let a game through and that if there is a safety issue then the choice is not to let the following game through.  25p anyone?


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## DCB (May 31, 2012)

So... why did you put the ball in the rough in the first place


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## JustOne (May 31, 2012)

Colin L said:



			I think I would put a modest bet on the R&A reply being that it is not permitted to stop and restart the search time to let a game through and that if there is a safety issue then the choice is not to let the following game through. 25p anyone? 

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I'll take that bet (and pay when we meet up at a forum event )

It does say within the rules of golf that safety of the players is paramount so they _could_ go against that if they wish.

I'm picturing a scene where player A hits his ball 250 into the 1st cut, player B hits his 240 also into the 1st cut, upon getting to their balls player A (who walked faster) can't find his and the clock starts ticking... player B however now wants to get on with his shot... does player A stand in the way for 5 mins?


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## Birchy (May 31, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Ahh, but all the rules of golf are mere technicalities. So which other ones would you ignore then?
		
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chrisd said:



			But then, what other rules of the game would you bend/break if you didn't like them?
		
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Your allowed 5 minutes searching time and if somebody doesnt get 5 minutes searching time then its hardly fair is it? If the R&A do indeed insist that you cant stop and re-start the search then i wouldnt let the group behind play through.


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## bladeplayer (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			Your allowed 5 minutes searching time and if somebody doesnt get 5 minutes searching time then its hardly fair is it? If the R&A do indeed insist that you cant stop and re-start the search then i wouldnt let the group behind play through.
		
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Think it may be another of these that suffer from the way they are worded Birchy , your allowed 5 mins from the start of the search , which pednticaly is different than 5 mins actualy searching ..

I agree with you & Bob in this , common sence should prevail but i doesnt seem like you have the option of common sence in this instance ..


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It does say within the rules of golf that safety of the players is paramount .....
		
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Erm.... where does it say that?


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## Birchy (May 31, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			Think it may be another of these that suffer from the way they are worded Birchy , your allowed 5 mins from the start of the search , which pednticaly is different than 5 mins actualy searching ..

I agree with you & Bob in this , common sence should prevail but i doesnt seem like you have the option of common sence in this instance ..
		
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It doesnt say anywhere starting and stopping the search is forbidden indefinatley so until i saw a definitive ruling from the R&A i would allow 5 mins searching time and allow the group to play through so everybody else on the course isnt affected. 

If we get word back that you definatley cant stop then re start the search then i wouldnt let the group through and continue making golfs biggest problem even worse.


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## Colin L (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			It doesnt say anywhere starting and stopping the search is forbidden
		
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It doesn't need to.  Given how clear  the Definition and 27-1c are that the ball is lost 5 minutes after the search has begun, you would need to find something that expressly made an exception to that. But I'm just repeating what has been said already so will leave it at that.  

Here is the wording:

A ball is deemed â€œ_lost_â€ if:
*a.* It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the playerâ€™s _side_ or his or their _caddies_ have begun to search for it; 


*Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes*

If a ball is _lost_ as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the playerâ€™s _side_ or his or their _caddies _have begun to search for it,


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## bobmac (May 31, 2012)

So, in other words, despite it being against common sense, rules are rules and in this instance, there is no getting round them?


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## chrisd (May 31, 2012)

Birchy said:



			Your allowed 5 minutes searching time and if somebody doesnt get 5 minutes searching time then its hardly fair is it? If the R&A do indeed insist that you cant stop and re-start the search then i wouldnt let the group behind play through.
		
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Ah! ............... the fatal mistake of confusing the rules with fairness!!


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2012)

Colin L said:



			Erm.... where does it say that?
		
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Well, those exact words are certainly used in Decision 6-8b/5. Though that refers to refusal to restart because of possible dnger from lightning.


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Well, those exact words are certainly used in Decision 6-8b/5. Though that refers to refusal to restart because of possible dnger from lightning.
		
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and goes on to say that the committee may DQ a player who still perceives a risk/danger for failing to get on with it....looks consistent with the application of the rules to the situation under discussion to me


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## williamalex1 (May 31, 2012)

if the ball was lucky enough to be found in  say 5.09  mins in injury time call it. can the player not  play out the hole , with both balls , and marker highlights  both  scores . and ask in score tent before signing and entering the card  ?


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## duncan mackie (May 31, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			if the ball was found in  say 5.09  mins in injury time call it. can the player not  play out the hole , with both balls , and marker highlights  both  scores . and ask in score tent before signing and entering the card  ?
		
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you could - but the I can predict the answer......


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## williamalex1 (May 31, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			you could - but the I can predict the answer......
		
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 but would  he be disqualified, for playing both balls ? say on the the green both balls were on same line.  therefore the first  putt made  is giving the line of the next putt. 14-2b  let them make the decision


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			but would  he be disqualified, for playing both balls ? say on the the green both balls were on same line.  therefore the first  putt made  is giving the line of the next putt. 14-2b  let them make the decision
		
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No.

Where a player is in doubt over a ruling, then 2 balls can be played - one as per the 'believed' reason and one under a known one. If both balls end up on same line, it's just (beneficial) rub of the green.


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## williamalex1 (May 31, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			No.

Where a player is in doubt over a ruling, then 2 balls can be played - one as per the 'believed' reason and one under a known one. If both balls end up on same line, it's just (beneficial) rub of the green.[/QUOTE thus  endeth the lession  . . wait and see ?. practice on the course ?, testing surface speed ?, to mention 2
		
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## garyinderry (May 31, 2012)

if no one ever times it then how can we know it took 5mins 1second?


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## garyinderry (May 31, 2012)

someone could claim that they think there ball is further up the rough than it really is and therefore get a free look as they go past then turn back on themselves.


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## Colin L (Jun 1, 2012)

williamalex1 said:





Foxholer said:



			No.

Where a player is in doubt over a ruling, then 2 balls can be played - one as per the 'believed' reason and one under a known one. If both balls end up on same line, it's just (beneficial) rub of the green.[/QUOTE thus  endeth the lession  . . wait and see ?. practice on the course ?, testing surface speed ?, to mention 2
		
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In stroke play, playing a second ball if in doubt as to how to proceed is covered by Rule 3-3:

_In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls._

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## williamalex1 (Jun 1, 2012)

handy to know for sure. i will try to keep my two in play for as long as i can


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## Snelly (Jun 1, 2012)

This entire thread seems like a pedants paradise to me.  Are any of you actually saying that you time how long it takes you or others to look for a ball?


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2012)

I think it's the principle rather than anything else.
IF you were timing it, and I agree the majority don't time or even take 5 minutes, would you be able to add on the waiting time - that's the question.

Also, we should be timing the search. It's tricky to judge 5 minutes without a clock - how do you know you've not been searching for 6_?
_


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2012)

williamalex1 said:





Foxholer said:



			No.

Where a player is in doubt over a ruling, then 2 balls can be played - one as per the 'believed' reason and one under a known one. If both balls end up on same line, it's just (beneficial) rub of the green.
		
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thus  endeth the lession  . . wait and see ?. practice on the course ?, testing surface speed ?, to mention 2
		
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It's quite clear in The Rules - 3.3

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&subRuleNum=3

And it's not pedantry but, in comps, I always check the time when I start searching for the ball.


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

How about this chaps.........

The 5 minute clock cannot be stopped unless there is a suspension of play

The player must not discontinue play unless: 
(ii) he believes there is danger from lightning; 
or 
(iv) there is some other good reason (loophole)

I would say being hit, not by lightning but by a golf ball (which is a more common occurence) would be a good enough reason.

Therefor play IS suspended until the danger has passed.
Then the player can continue play and continue searching for his ball
The rules official is happy, the player is happy he gets his 5 minutes to search for his ball and a victory for common sense.


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## Colin L (Jun 1, 2012)

That's naughty, Bobmac.  You haven't quoted in full and the  missing bit is essential to interpreting what the Rule intends to say.  In full, it reads, 

_Unless....
(iv) there is some other good reason _*such as sudden illness

*To me, this illustrative point is meant to indicate events that are unexpected, unavoidable and  which demand that  some action be taken.  It doesn't say to me that a routine matter like deciding whether to let the game behind play through   is that kind of "good reason" which is why I haven't even mentioned it in my argument.  It will be interesting, though,  to hear if the R&A considers otherwise.*

*


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

In full, it reads, 

_Unless....
(iv) there is some other good reason *such as*_ sudden illness
		
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'Such as' would suggest there are other reason that would be taken into consideration.

Do you not agree that the wording would give a referee an amount of discretion in what he would consider to be a good reason to discontinue play? A loophole if you will?


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## Snelly (Jun 1, 2012)

Imurg said:



			I think it's the principle rather than anything else.
IF you were timing it, and I agree the majority don't time or even take 5 minutes, would you be able to add on the waiting time - that's the question.

Also, we should be timing the search. It's tricky to judge 5 minutes without a clock - how do you know you've not been searching for 6_?
_

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You don't.  But even though it is a point of principle, I am surprised anyone is that bothered about this.  Is there a penalty for taking 5 minutes and 1 second?  Because that one second over is the same as taking 10 minutes if we operate strictly by the rules. 

Is going over by a few seconds the same as kicking your ball into a better lie? If so, then I recall other threads like this where no agreement can be reached.


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

Snelly, I think the point is while you're waiting for the group behind to play through, your 5 mins is still counting down so the chances are, while you're waiting, your 5 minutes will be over and you'll HAVE to go back and play another or play the provisional that you may have hit.


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## Colin L (Jun 1, 2012)

bobmac said:



			'Such as' would suggest there are other reason that would be taken into consideration.

Do you not agree that the wording would give a referee an amount of discretion in what he would consider to be a good reason to discontinue play? A loophole if you will?
		
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Of course it is intended to be illustrative of other kinds of situation which could allow players to discontinue play. But the nature of the situation used as an illustration is of one that is outwith the control of the players, one where something has to be done for the safety and wellbeing of a player as a result of an unexpected and uncontrollable event.   

The situation we have been discussing is one in which the players are in control of the events.  They  have the choice of not waving the game behind through. Seems very different to me.


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## MashieNiblick (Jun 1, 2012)

I think this has been a really interesting thread. In most cases the pupose and application of a Rule is rational and fair. So when you stumble on something that seems at odds with that, I think it is worth discussing.

Thing is it isn't hypothetical. A lot of holes have rough in front of the tee. If you duff your drive 50 yards into that, start looking for a minute, then stop to let the group behind through, common sense and fairness would  suggest that when they have gone you still have the time remaining to search. I imagine most people would assume that is allowed. However the Rules as written don't seem to support that view. It seems funny it hasn't come up and been ruled on. Maybe that is why the pros on Tour don't let players through when they lose a ball.

We can't expect a Rule change anytime soon but I don't see why at that time there can't be an exception included to allow a search to be suspended for safety reasons to let following players through and resumed when it's all clear as long as the total time spent searching doesn't exceed 5 minutes.

In the meantime we await the R&A's reply to  PalindromicBob.


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## palindromicbob (Jun 1, 2012)

How long do they usually take to respond?


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

They  have the choice of not waving the game behind through. Seems very different to me.
		
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What does etiquette say you should do when looking for your ball and there are people waiting behind?

I was just trying to suggest the decision was open to an alternative interpretation in the sake of common sense.


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## chrisd (Jun 1, 2012)

This is just about the best rules question I've seen on here as it's a very clear cut decision but also clear to me that the rule was written long before the advent of health and safety. The answer has to be that, as the rule is more important than ettiquette, that you dont call anyone through if it means you stop searching.

I really do wonder what the R&A will say!


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## duncan mackie (Jun 1, 2012)

chrisd said:



			This is just about the best rules question I've seen on here as it's a very clear cut decision but also clear to me that the rule was written long before the advent of health and safety. The answer has to be that, as the rule is more important than ettiquette, that you dont call anyone through if it means you stop searching.

I really do wonder what the R&A will say!
		
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Chris - it may well be that in deciding that 5mins is an appropriate time for a search they took into account such possible interferences with the process.....then again they may not!

The critical thing is that it's the same for everybody and, as ever in the rules, there are times when you get an edge (on a hypothetical FC for whom the same thing happens but in a different place) or loose an edge.

I cannot see how they will respond with anything other than 'unless instructed by the committee, or of course it's representative, the process of calling through another game would not stop the clock on the search.

I'm interested in who Pal-Bob actually asked what because in general they don't respond to hypothetical questions!


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## Birchy (Jun 1, 2012)

What happens if when your letting the group behind through they hit it in rough also and have to let the next group through. In the meantime your 5 minutes have been eaten up and you havent even had 30 seconds never mind 5 minutes?


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## Colin L (Jun 1, 2012)

On a practical level,  is the delay to your search while the game behind plays through enough generally  to matter?  You only have to be on the alert at the point each player hits the ball and for as much of its flight as you need to know whether it is coming anywhere near you. I'm just thinking what I do in those circumstances - which is to keep tramping around while keeping an eye on the game behind, stop for a moment to watch the flight of a shot, and as often as not get on with the tramping around while the ball is in the air because I see it isn't going anywhere near me. And obviously as soon as all have played, your search carries on uninterrupted. If one of them has hacked into the jungle and is searching for his ball, you are still searching.   Are we talking of anything more than a few seconds of interruption to your search?  Clearly more if you are talking of having to cross to the other side to feel safe, but I really don't know how common that is.


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

I've just spoken to a rules official at the R&A and she' not sure herself.
She will however speak to her colleagues and call me back this afternoon with a decision.


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## chrisd (Jun 1, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			Chris - it may well be that in deciding that 5mins is an appropriate time for a search they took into account such possible interferences with the process.....then again they may not!
		
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It may well be the case that they took it into account, but highly likely not. Mostly when calling a group through we continue to look with the person who waved them keeping lookout. It is though a valid point that needs clarification as "doing the right thing" may penalise the do gooder.


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

Well, I spoke to the R&A and explained the following situation
 2 golfers tee off at a right to left dogleg par 4 and player A hits it into the rough on the corner of the dog leg in line with the green.
They move forward to look for the ball and after 2 mins searching, the group behind have appeared on the tee behind them ready to tee off.
In line with etiquette, and not wanting to hold them up, they call the following group to play through. For their own safety, they cross over to the other side of the fairway on the right to be out of line of the golfers teeing off.
When the players have played through which takes 5 minutes, the 2 ball then cross the fairway back to where the ball is still missing. Are they allowed to continue searching for the remaining 3 minutes?
The answer given by the R&A was Yes.
As long as the total searching time wasn't more than 5 minutes and they were no where near the ball while the following group where teeing off they can resume their search.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 1, 2012)

very fairly worded question, clear answer.  well done Bob


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## palindromicbob (Jun 1, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I've just spoken to a rules official at the R&A and she' not sure herself.
She will however speak to her colleagues and call me back this afternoon with a decision. 

Click to expand...


Looking forward to the response. No word back for me yet but then you should have more contacts Bob. I still think that equity would dictate the clock gets paused.

EDIT: I should hit refresh more often!


Now the response is in glad to see it make sense and is fair. So that 5up timer thingy is officially a waste of money. Now if only I had knowledge of app programming. I could make one with a pause feature that beeped and flashed as time was running out. Where's my app programming for dummies book. I'm going to make a fortune!!!


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			very fairly worded question, clear answer.  well done Bob
		
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Thanks, and it kind of restores your faith in common sense


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## JustOne (Jun 1, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Well, I spoke to the R&A and explained the following situation
2 golfers tee off at a right to left dogleg par 4 and player A hits it into the rough on the corner of the dog leg in line with the green.
They move forward to look for the ball and after 2 mins searching, the group behind have appeared on the tee behind them ready to tee off.
In line with etiquette, and not wanting to hold them up, they call the following group to play through. For their own safety, they cross over to the other side of the fairway on the right to be out of line of the golfers teeing off.
When the players have played through which takes 5 minutes, the 2 ball then cross the fairway back to where the ball is still missing. Are they allowed to continue searching for the remaining 3 minutes?
The answer given by the R&A was Yes.
As long as the total searching time wasn't more than 5 minutes and they were no where near the ball while the following group where teeing off they can resume their search.
		
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Hardly groundbreaking,.... only a knob would think otherwise.


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## bluewolf (Jun 1, 2012)

So all you have to remember when allowing the group behind to play through, is to stand a fair distance away from where the ball was lost. Quality.


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## daymond (Jun 1, 2012)

The response from the R&A is exactly as I expected. I was going to post yesterday that if you go to search for a ball and after two minutes you see a crocadile close by you beat a hasty retreat, wait for the croc. to move off and then continue the search for the remaining three minutes. It may sound fanciful but trust me it can and does happen in florida.


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## MashieNiblick (Jun 1, 2012)

Well there you go. Sensible answer from the R&A. I think we all thought that anyway.


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## Colin L (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for going to the trouble Bob.  It's a great help to get a ruling like this when it doesn't seem possible to make it on the basis of the rule book.  That's what the Decisions are about and it would be good to see this one end up as a Decision.


No supper for me tonight - got to save up that 25p somehow.


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## JustOne (Jun 1, 2012)

Colin L said:



			No supper for me tonight - got to save up that 25p somehow. 

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I'm making a list of things to spend it on............


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## Iaing (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to get a ruling on this Bob. Common sense applies.

Now, how would you define when the 5 minutes start ? 
Say you've a blind drive and you hit it offline and hear it hit timber. If this happens to me, as soon as I'm over the hill I'm looking for my ball, even if I'm just scanning the fairway in case it got a lucky bounce.
So does the 5 minutes start when I crest the hill, or is it when my playing partners sigh, swear, put their bags down and come and help me try to find it ?


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## palindromicbob (Jun 2, 2012)

I still reckon this is covered under equity as the ruling is what is fair within the rules.


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## CMAC (Jun 2, 2012)

VERY interesting discussion- in the real world this wont and doesnt happen........

can you imagine the atmosphere and words exchanged if the group walked back to the search area after 5 mins, right onto the 'lost' ball and someone called it lost as you've been standing across the fairway for that time.......

@Bob did this R&A official say they will post if officially on the R&A website now for the rest of the planet to know this stupid rule is now void?


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## bobmac (Jun 2, 2012)

VERY interesting discussion- in the real world this wont and doesnt happen........
		
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I think you'll find there was a few on here who would have ruled that the time was up.






			Bob did this R&A official say they will post if officially on the  R&A website now for the rest of the planet to know this stupid rule  is now void?
		
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I didn't ask.
All I will say is, if you ever have a problem with a rule, ask your pro. If your still not happy, ask your pro to check it with the R&A .


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2012)

DarthVega said:



*VERY interesting discussion- in the real world this wont and doesnt happen........*

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*Er. This is exactly what should - and generally does happen.

*


DarthVega said:



_can you imagine the atmosphere and words exchanged if the group walked back to the search area after 5 mins, right onto the 'lost' ball and someone called it lost as you've been standing across the fairway for that time.......
_

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_And it's precisely to avoid this happening (which a few on here did think should be the case) that this ruling was requested.
_


bobmac said:



All I will say is, if you ever have a problem with a rule, ask your pro. If your still not happy, ask your pro to check it with the R&A .

Click to expand...

Thanks Bob. Though more than once I've heard club Pros making rulings, that have either been out of date or simply wrong! They should certainly have a copy of The Rules to hand though (and access to Decisions), and be prepared to contact R&A under similar circumstances to these.


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## bobmac (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks Bob. Though more than once I've heard club Pros making rulings,  that have either been out of date or simply wrong! They should certainly  have a copy of The Rules to hand though (and access to Decisions), and  be prepared to contact R&A under similar circumstances to these.
		
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No-one's perfect.
That's why I said "If your still not happy, ask your pro to check it with the R&A"


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## CMAC (Jun 2, 2012)

Foxholer said:



*Er. This is exactly what should - and generally does happen.

.*

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*

? *


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## Colin L (Jun 2, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			@Bob did this R&A official say they will post if officially on the R&A website now for the rest of the planet to know this stupid rule is now void?
		
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What  "stupid" rule has been made void?  What we now have is a very helpful clarification from R&A to allow in the specific circumstances described, a search to be interrupted - the sort of "case law" help we get from the Decisions. The Definition of a lost" ball is not changed nor is the procedure.  Maybe this one will end up in the Decisions Book some day.

Bobmac is right that several of us could not see a way to arrive at a ruling  to permit a search to be interrupted based on what was available to us in the Rules and the lack of a relevant Decision.  We might still maintain that on that basis we were right. But the really helpful outcome of this discussion (which I have found very enjoyable, thanks to all) is that we now have this additional clarification from R&A that _would _be the basis  of the ruling that was obviously the one that seemed right and fair - but which was not available without that additional input from R&A.

This was not a unique situation in which the application of the Rules does not seem to produce the answer people would like, the answer that people would generally think fair.  Dare I mention water-filled bunkers without starting a 20 page thread?


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## bladeplayer (Jun 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Well, I spoke to the R&A and explained the following situation
 2 golfers tee off at a right to left dogleg par 4 and player A hits it into the rough on the corner of the dog leg in line with the green.
They move forward to look for the ball and after 2 mins searching, the group behind have appeared on the tee behind them ready to tee off.
In line with etiquette, and not wanting to hold them up, they call the following group to play through. For their own safety, they cross over to the other side of the fairway on the right to be out of line of the golfers teeing off.
When the players have played through which takes 5 minutes, the 2 ball then cross the fairway back to where the ball is still missing. Are they allowed to continue searching for the remaining 3 minutes?
The answer given by the R&A was Yes.
As long as the total searching time wasn't more than 5 minutes and they were no where near the ball while the following group where teeing off they can resume their search.
		
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Deserves a mention in the rules page of the mag this one,  for readers that are not forumers  .. good work Bob thanks again


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## CMAC (Jun 2, 2012)

Colin L said:



			What  "stupid" rule has been made void?
		
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seriously?

R&A have re-clarified the rule so the strict rule of 5 mins regardless is now moot according to Bobs official official


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## Kellfire (Jun 2, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			seriously?

R&A have re-clarified the rule so the strict rule of 5 mins regardless is now moot according to Bobs official official
		
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The rule isn't void, it's merely been clarified.


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## CMAC (Jun 2, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			The rule isn't void, it's merely been clarified.
		
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ergo changing the rule, imo that means the definition has changed........however, until they make it official the old definition stands

however, as it never happens in real life its moot anyway


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## Colin L (Jun 2, 2012)

I have just noticed that my last sentence above has a "not" in it that shouldn't be there.  It should read 

_This was a unique situation in which the application of the Rules does not seem to produce the answer people would like, the answer that people would generally think fair.

_


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## Colin L (Jun 2, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			ergo changing the rule, imo that means the definition has changed........however, until they make it official the old definition stands

however, as it never happens in real life its moot anyway
		
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Unfortunately, this is a complete misunderstanding of what has happened.  The Definition has not changed (and indeed could not change until the next revision of the Rules).  A ball is still "lost" if it has not been found within 5 minutes. What the advice Bobmac helpfully got from the R&A tells  us is that it is permissible to stop counting that 5 minutes if you have to move away from the search area for safety while you let the following game through and start counting again when you return to the search.  And it only applies if you  move away from where the ball is likely to be.  

As for its not happening in real life, it's clear from this thread that having to move away for safety while a game plays through does happen and also clear that there are  players who do count the time.


NB As for my "correction" above to the previous post - it's bollocks.  The original sentence was right enough.  Time to switch off and go to sleep methinks.


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