# Quick poll on your new handicap index



## MarkT (Oct 22, 2020)

To help with an online piece for the website can you let us know how your handicap has been affected with the new index and provide as much info and background as possible in the comments below. Much obliged..


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

Roughly the same. Handicap was 9.4 under CONGU. HI will be 7.7 once my final round is entered, which gives me a Course handicap of 9 on yellows and whites.


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## Orikoru (Oct 22, 2020)

I was off 16 and new index says 14.5 I was expecting it though as our course was given a slope of 131 off the whites, which is higher than most of the other courses in the local area. But I think that means I'll still get the usual 16 shots on my home course??

Unfortunately two of my best eight counting scores are 19th and 20th on the list, so in all likelihood it will balance back out to 16 index anyway after my next two comps.


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

CONGU handicap 6.1
Indicative WHS Index 7.2
With our White tee slope of 138 my Course handicap comes out at 9....
95% of that still gives me 3 shots more on the same course as my 6.1 was achieved at.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2020)

Congo HC is 4 - Handicap Index is 2.9


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## nickjdavis (Oct 22, 2020)

Currently off 12 exactly...WHS index is supposed to be 11.2 but I've played a couple of comps in October that aren't reflected in the Index yet.

At our club 50% of players have lower indexes than their Congu handicap, 30% higher and 20% are exactly the same. The vast majority of those who have stayed the same are those who dont have 3 scores in their record since Jan 2018 and have been automatically allocated an index the same as their Congu handicap.


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## Scott W (Oct 22, 2020)

Down in terms of index but with slope roughly same

CONGU 17.9

WHS 15.2

Playing off whites 18 (or 17 if 95%)

Cant see playing history as they claim not to have my email - despite sending me emailed newsletters every month


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## Whereditgo (Oct 22, 2020)

My handicap Index will be 1.5 lower than my CONGU Handicap was, however my Course handicap will be 1 full stroke higher than my CONGU handicap was.


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2020)

There isn't a "in Scotland so no idea yet" option...


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

ger147 said:



			There isn't a "in Scotland so no idea yet" option...
		
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And similarly, Wales not yet declared the vote!    Mind you, the geezer has banned all golf in Wales will 9th November... I guess there is no connection between that and the WHS date !


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## Beedee (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu = 19.5
WHS = 17.1 so a course hcp (white) of 20 and a typical playing hcp of 19. 

It does seem to have lost four of my qualifiers tho so I'd expected a little bit higher.  The scores were from quite a while ago so who knows.  And no CSS yet.


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## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu 10.4
WHS 9.6

Can't quite see the logic in it as it's been a terrible few years for my game. Still, the slope at my gaff will give me an extra few shots, so there's that..
Oh, and I'm hearing strong rumour that the CSS hasn't been used to calculate the initial index as shown on the EG Website. So mine might come down some more yet.. Joyous..


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Please add
"It's a joke" to the voting options 😉
		
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Born/raised /live(d) in Ludd?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu 25.4
Index 20.2

Handicap off whites at mine 24


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## Sports_Fanatic (Oct 22, 2020)

From 14.1 to 13.7 although i probably haven't got a full 20 scores. At my course that puts me off 13 for yellows and 14 for whites, but I gain 3-4 shots at other courses I've played recently. Part feel they've put the slope rating at my course lower than it should be as I don't feel there is that much disparity if I knew the other courses better.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu 20
Index 18.4

On the course I play the slope adjusts it to 20 so when I play at home there is no change. That makes sense when I think about it.


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

CONGU 10.1
WHS H.I. 9.4 

White Slope is 128
Course Handicap  11
Playing Handicap 10

I play over 20 comps a year


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2020)

Was on 23
New HC is 26 off the whites
25 off the yellows 

Imurg is up 3 to 9 and CVG is up 5 to 18, but he is a grandad. 

We are playing a bounce game tomorrow and will try out the new numbers and report back 👍


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## Crow (Oct 22, 2020)

CONGU 15.1
WHS index 15.9, playing handicap from the white and yellow tees 18.

I've had a very poor couple of years playing so I'm not surprised by this depressing turn of events.


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## 94tegsi (Oct 22, 2020)

But aren’t the WHS handicaps currently being sent out missing most of October’s scores as well as any adjustment required for CSS? So a bit premature, no?


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## JamesR (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu is 4.1
Index is 2.4
Playing off the whites at home is 2.7


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## spongebob59 (Oct 22, 2020)

Down to 16 and I haven't played in a comp for nearly 18 months


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## upsidedown (Oct 22, 2020)

Down to 3.4


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

MarkT said:



			To help with an online piece for the website can you let us know how your handicap has been affected with the new index and provide as much info and background as possible in the comments below. Much obliged..
		
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@MarkT really to early at the moment as EG suppliers failed to use the correct algorithm and there are still Q,s and supplementary cards to be entered. Best after 2 Nov IMO looking at some of the data I’m wadding through.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

*Don't rely on anything you see on the WHS site until Nov 2 *


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## srixon 1 (Oct 22, 2020)

Currently 4.6. Handicap index is 3.2, which when calculated with our slope rating of 133 gives me a playing handicap of 3.7 for my home course, assuming I have calculated correctly.


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## MarkT (Oct 22, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Down to 16 and I haven't played in a comp for nearly 18 months 

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Down to 16 from what?


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Don't rely on anything you see on the WHS site until Nov 2 *

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With the number of inaccuracies, missing data and, seemingly guesswork thats apparent they should have shut access to the public as soon as possible because its just causing confusion.
From where I sit they've made a right dog's dinner of it..


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## TheJezster (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Don't rely on anything you see on the WHS site until Nov 2 *

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I'll echo this... 

My congu handicap is 8.0

Whs currently saying 3.2 🤣

I'll just wait until the 2nd to see my real number...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			With the number of inaccuracies, missing data and, seemingly guesswork thats apparent they should have shut access to the public as soon as possible because its just causing confusion.
*From where I sit they've made a right dog's dinner of it..*

Click to expand...

Someone's done a cracking job; take your current handicap, work it up or down to your handicap index according to your home course slope rating, and then get a table out to work it down or up (the opposite direction to the one you've just done) to about where it used to be to get your home course playing handicap.

I take it whoever sold this to the golf authorities got tired of selling snow to Eskimos and wanted a new challenge?  An ashtray on the Ducati would be more use to me.


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## gary996 (Oct 22, 2020)

Congu 14.2
WHS 11.7
Tbh other than one 36 pointer I’m not sure I’ve been struggling around 30ish in most stable ford comps for ages. No idea how that would translate in a reduction. Was expecting to go up to 16 or so... wait and see for November I guess.


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Don't rely on anything you see on the WHS site until Nov 2 *

Click to expand...


Oh my god my name is wrong


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2020)

So congu is 9.5 
Index 9.2 
whites 10 124
blacks 11 126
reality is I would have played off 10 on both sets of tees, and the css would have tidied it all up..
The last rounds I shot were 3 and 4 under these and the consequent calculations have just given me more shots. So if we say your HI were based on your congu for your course the calculation would be 
congu hc - (((course rating/113))-1)* congu hc) = base hc for a 113 rated course 
so based on that my HI should be 9.5-(((126/113)-1)*9.5 )= 8.4 .... or have I over simplified it all by saying use your current congu handicap and utilise the course rating ?? This would mean you just play normally at your own course and adjust when you travel ..


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## timd77 (Oct 22, 2020)

I’ve put ‘roughly the same’. Congu is 20.3, whs is 18.6, but with slope it works out at 20 at my home course. I guess that they idea if it really.


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## fenwayrich (Oct 22, 2020)

I expect that mine will be roughly the same but every one of the gents handicap indexes showing for my club is miles out, not to mention the inaccuracies in the calculations generally. We will need to send out a communication letting people know that what they can see now will change significantly when corrections are made (hopefully before November 2nd but I'm not holding my breath).


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## Spear-Chucker (Oct 22, 2020)

Played like a turnip for two years due to long term health problems and injury and it’s projected to go to 4.9 

Won’t be enough.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Don't rely on anything you see on the WHS site until Nov 2 *

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Gregorian or Roman calendar?

Which year?


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## rudebhoy (Oct 23, 2020)

Up and down 

current handicap is 25.7, new one is 23.3, but I now get to play off 28 at my home course, so I guess up is the right answer?


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

CONGU handicap 5.2
Indicative WHS Index 4.3
White tees: rating 70.8, slope 130, par 70.
New course handicap: 6
New strokeplay playing handicap: 6 (5.7)

So stayed broadly similar but will get an extra stroke in strokeplay comps as things stand. I've flitted between 5 and 6 as a congu handicap for the last 3 years or so, so the WHS appears to have been pretty accurate (potential adjustments over the next 10 days notwithstanding). The best part is, based on these numbers, I can tell folk my "index" is four but I'll actually get six


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

CONGU handicap 9.9
Indicative WHS Index 8.7 (I think this is incorrect, should be 8.2)
White tees: rating 72, slope 142, par 72.
New course handicap: 11 (based on indicative), 10 (based on my calculation)
New strokeplay playing handicap: 10 (10.3 indicative, 9.8 my calc)


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Oct 23, 2020)

Congu 14.6, HI 13.2, slope adjusted to 15 so basically no change.  I haven't played too many competitive singles rounds in the last couple of years due to injury, I am unsure as too how many qualifying scores were used to calculate my h/i but I suppose its a fair reflection of the dire state of my game right now.


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## Captainron (Oct 23, 2020)

Congu 13.5 (14)
WHS Index 11.3
White Tees Slope 151 rating 74.4
New course handicap 15.1


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Congu 13.5 (14)
WHS Index 11.3
White Tees Slope 151 rating 74.4
New course handicap 15.1
		
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Have all your CONGU qualifiers been of the white tees?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 23, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Was on 23
New HC is 26 off the whites
25 off the yellows

Imurg is up 3 to 9 and CVG is up 5 to 18, but he is a grandad.

We are playing a bounce game tomorrow and will try out the new numbers and report back 👍
		
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So played off the whites 138 using the provisional handicap figures as above

CVG had 27 points
Imurg 34
Fragger 39

Equal to 22 / 31/ 36 in old money

Played well, but not 39 points well, Imurg reckons the 3 extra shots is adding to my confidence. 
Unintended consequences


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2020)

With a HI lower than current handicap,  but you get higher allowance on home course... do you feel you've gone up or down?😁


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## Britishshooting (Oct 23, 2020)

I was off 0.6 now off +1 HI

Course Par 70
Rating of Course 71.2
Slope 134

Has me playing off scratch round my home track which makes life easier.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So congu is 9.5
Index 9.2
whites 10 124
blacks 11 126
reality is I would have played off 10 on both sets of tees, and the css would have tidied it all up..
The last rounds I shot were 3 and 4 under these and the consequent calculations have just given me more shots. So if we say your HI were based on your congu for your course the calculation would be
congu hc - (((course rating/113))-1)* congu hc) = base hc for a 113 rated course
so based on that my HI should be 9.5-(((126/113)-1)*9.5 )= 8.4 .... or have I over simplified it all by saying use your current congu handicap and utilise the course rating ?? This would mean you just play normally at your own course and adjust when you travel ..
		
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I don't think you've included any adjustment for Course Rating (unless that's what the stuff in brackets, which I'm puzzled about it's purpose, is).


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## Captainron (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have all your CONGU qualifiers been of the white tees?
		
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Most of them yes


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## KenL (Oct 23, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			But aren’t the WHS handicaps currently being sent out missing most of October’s scores as well as any adjustment required for CSS? So a bit premature, no?
		
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In Scotland they are only estimates that are being shown on the app.  I'll vote once I know what my index actually is.


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

IanM said:



			With a HI lower than current handicap,  but you get higher allowance on home course... do you feel you've gone up or down?😁
		
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Both: I can tell strangers I'm now a four handicap rather than a five, but to my mates who I play with regularly I'm now a six


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## richart (Oct 23, 2020)

CONGU 10.8
WHS 10.7 
Course slope 120
Playing handicap 13.

Category 3 for first time in 45 years. Or have categories been scrapped ?


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## Canfordhacker (Oct 23, 2020)

Congu 12.3
HI 12.4
14 off the Yellows
15 off the Whites


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## Junior (Oct 23, 2020)

5.6 to 4.6, but my home course i'll play off 5.4 using the new system. 

I've also worked out if css is used on Nov 2nd I'll drop to 4.3


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2020)

richart said:



			Category 3 for first time in 45 years.  

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bleeding hackers!!!


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## jim8flog (Oct 23, 2020)

richart said:



			CONGU 10.8
WHS 10.7 
Course slope 120
Playing handicap 13.

Category 3 for first time in 45 years. Or have categories been scrapped ?

Click to expand...

Categories are scrapped with the WHS.

The only real reason for having them is that the adjustment per stroke for score better than handicap is different with each Cat.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 23, 2020)

CONGU 10.5
WHS 7.0 

Not sure whether to believe the Scottish Golf App yet though. Too many courses to list slopes etc.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't think you've included any adjustment for Course Rating (unless that's what the stuff in brackets, which I'm puzzled about it's purpose, is).
		
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Yeah that accounts for course rating so if you have a congu handicap on a course that’s harder or easier than average it changes the number of strokes received. CSS would still operate, it doesn’t fluctuate massively anyway .. so you would receive your cut etc 
But I suppose it doesn’t address the congu systems inability to keep up with improving golfers.


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## larmen (Oct 23, 2020)

I am not sure mine is right yet because I think it has changed in the last few minutes. Only just got my CDH number so I couldn't check before.

Handicap - 36 (was quite happy not having to take 3 shots on any hole anymore!)
Handicap index - 26.5 (I think this was 26.0 about 30 minutes ago)
Playing handicap at home: 24 of the whites and 21 of the yellows (par 68, course rating 65 and 63 of the different tees). 

I might not win any comp soon ;-)


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			...
But I suppose it doesn’t address the congu systems inability to keep up with improving golfers.
		
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Are you saying that Congu doesn't address...? Or that WHS doesn't the (same) issue?
Congu did attempt to 'automate' the improving golfer issue with the ESR process, but even that was generally 'behind'. A previous club (prior to the ESR clauses) had a fear of members giving the (resort) club a bad name for 'banditry' in corporate events that many members played, so kept a close eye on the various swindles (there were at least 4) and did his own 'cutting' where he felt it necessary.
I've had 2 periods where comp results couldn't keep up with my improvement under Congu - that would likely have still had the problem under WHS. Neither system really handles rapidly changing ability particularly well imo.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			I am not sure mine is right yet because I think it has changed in the last few minutes. Only just got my CDH number so I couldn't check before.

Handicap - 36 (was quite happy not having to take 3 shots on any hole anymore!)
Handicap index - 26.5 (I think this was 26.0 about 30 minutes ago)
*Playing handicap at home: 24 of the whites and 21 of the yellows (par 68, course rating 65 and 63 of the different tees).*

I might not win any comp soon ;-)
		
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You, and other high cappers in particular, need to consider/be aware of Slope as well! At least if you play other courses, particular more difficult ones, as Course (not 'Playing' (though you do specify 'at home') handicap would very likely be different (higher).


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Are you saying that Congu doesn't address...? Or that WHS doesn't the (same) issue?
Congu did attempt to 'automate' the improving golfer issue with the ESR process, but even that was generally 'behind'. A previous club (prior to the ESR clauses) had a fear of members giving the (resort) club a bad name for 'banditry' in corporate events that many members played, so kept a close eye on the various swindles (there were at least 4) and did his own 'cutting' where he felt it necessary.
I've had 2 periods where comp results couldn't keep up with my improvement under Congu - that would likely have still had the problem under WHS. Neither system really handles rapidly changing ability particularly well imo.
		
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Congu didn’t really address and the mechanism I have suggested doesn’t either.. god knows what whs will do, time will tell.


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## larmen (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You, and other high cappers in particular, need to consider/be aware of Slope as well! At least if you play other courses, particular more difficult ones, as Course (not 'Playing' (though you do specify 'at home') handicap would very likely be different (higher).
		
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Our track is silly easy, par 68 but course ratings 65 and 63, slope 117 and 111. But it’s difficult to get a cut because CSS usually sits around 38 points, I started on 48 handicap but cut 12 strokes in the last few comps, therefore my best 7 (or 6?) out of 11 played are counted only and the awful ones that started me that high are dropped which set me up there in the 1st place.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 23, 2020)

Currently off 12.1 but new handicap has me at 11.5 so technically unchanged but one good round and closer to single figures


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## GG26 (Oct 23, 2020)

CONGU - 19.3
HI - 17.7 
With slope of 131 gives me a handicap of 21 on my home course (up 2).  However, a comp on 10th October has yet to be processed, which is likely to bring my HI down a small amount giving a course handicap of 20.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

Gone up by 0.7 but I expected as much as I have had some shocking results over the past year or so, particularly following lockdown. All sorted now methinks, but too late for the WHS launch.
That said, I play on a tough course, so whilst this was reflected in my handicap under CSS, it wasn’t shown in my scores. Under WHS and slope it will be reflected in both, as my course handicap goes up, so I expect to play to my handicap more often, which is more satisfying.
Overall, once we get used to it, I think it will be a better system.


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			But I suppose it doesn’t address the congu systems inability to keep up with improving golfers.
		
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It is supposed to.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Currently off 12.1 but new handicap has me at 11.5 so technically unchanged but one good round and closer to single figures
		
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To misquote The Bard (hardly the first to do so)....Vanity. Thy name is Homer!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2020)

pretty much the same.  HI of 8.4 - current h/cap is 8.6.

Factor HI for home track slope gives me a home track playing handicap of 9.2.  Off whites no adjustment as CR = par.  Singles strokeplay (irrespective of medal/stableford) takes 0.46 (5%) off that to give home track playing handicap of 8.74.  So when playing my own track in a singles strokeplay comp I go around the houses and end up pretty much exactly where I started 😊👍

Mind you - I haven’t worked out what HI I have to get down to a strokeplay PH of 8 round my own track.  It feels like it’s going to be close to 8.0 and feels like it’ll be quite hard to get to that.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is supposed to.
		
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I am not sure how it will, is it related to the 8 best scores ? How does it take chunks off your handicap, does it move away from the 0.1,0.2, etc per shot under ?


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## jim8flog (Oct 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I am not sure how it will, is it related to the 8 best scores ? How does it take chunks off your handicap, does it move away from the 0.1,0.2, etc per shot under ?
		
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Say the oldest score of the 20 in your record is 20 and this gets replaced by a 10 last week,   20/8=2.5 and 10/8= 1.25  so that is a 1.25 off your current Handicap Index not a shot off your Handicap index 20 games previously.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Say the oldest score of the 20 in your record is 20 and this gets replaced by a 10 last week,   20/8=2.5 and 10/8= 1.25  so that is a 1.25 off your current Handicap Index not a shot off your Handicap index 20 games previously.
		
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So it does the big chunks fast, is there no need for extraordinary cuts ?


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## Ethan (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Are you saying that Congu doesn't address...? Or that WHS doesn't the (same) issue?
Congu did attempt to 'automate' the improving golfer issue with the ESR process, but even that was generally 'behind'. A previous club (prior to the ESR clauses) had a fear of members giving the (resort) club a bad name for 'banditry' in corporate events that many members played, so kept a close eye on the various swindles (there were at least 4) and did his own 'cutting' where he felt it necessary.
I've had 2 periods where comp results couldn't keep up with my improvement under Congu - that would likely have still had the problem under WHS. Neither system really handles rapidly changing ability particularly well imo.
		
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CONGU is anchored to the past handicap more than WHS. ESR is a somewhat clunky way to catch up, but under WHS, when the handicap can be more or less redefined on a ruling 20 round basis, there shouldn't need to be such a lever. 

Players can certainly game the system in WHS, though. There used to be a major problem in the big US pro-ams of people who played off a 2 or 3 most of the season pitching up with an 8 or 9 for the big event.


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## Ethan (Oct 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			pretty much the same.  HI of 8.4 - current h/cap is 8.6.

Factor HI for home track slope gives me a home track playing handicap of 9.2.  Off whites no adjustment as CR = par.  Singles strokeplay (irrespective of medal/stableford) takes 0.46 (5%) off that to give home track playing handicap of 8.74.  So when playing my own track in a singles strokeplay comp I go around the houses and end up pretty much exactly where I started 😊👍

Mind you - I haven’t worked out what HI I have to get down to a strokeplay PH of 8 round my own track.  It feels like it’s going to be close to 8.0 and feels like it’ll be quite hard to get to that.
		
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The Playing Handicap is the best comparator for the CONGU. Your CONGU handicap has the difficulty of your home course baked into it. When you calculate the handicap based on average of 8 best differentials, you get the PH right away, then you apply the slope correction to get the HI. A fair few people will see a slight increase in PH vs CONGI because the Course Ratings tend to be a bit higher than typical CSS/SSS. If you have been playing much better/worse than your CONGU handicap lately, may also be some more discrepancy.


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## jim8flog (Oct 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So it does the big chunks fast, is there no need for extraordinary cuts ?
		
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With the WHS they really should be called extra ordinary score reductions you only get them for scores of 7 better than course handicap.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			With the WHS they really should be called extra ordinary score reductions you only get them for scores of 7 better than course handicap.
		
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Oh Jimbo you have confused me now! So what can I expect if I play 2 shots below the course handicap? A 0.4 cut as a cat 2 ..


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Oh Jimbo you have confused me now! So what can I expect if I play 2 shots below the course handicap? A 0.4 cut *as a cat 2* ..
		
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That concept will disappear when WHS is implemented!
The whole basis for calculating Handicap (Index) has changed (to 'average of best 8 from last 20')! 
It could possibly even increase - if the round 'dropping off' was 'even better'!! That's going to confuse a few folk!


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			...
Players can certainly game the system in WHS, though. There used to be a major problem in the big US pro-ams of people who played off a 2 or 3 most of the season pitching up with an 8 or 9 for the big event.
		
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The problem of cheats has, and, always will be, something Golf highlights but doesn't, in itself, 'solve'!


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## jim8flog (Oct 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Players can certainly game the system in WHS, though. There used to be a major problem in the big US pro-ams of people who played off a 2 or 3 most of the season pitching up with an 8 or 9 for the big event.
		
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No longer as easy for a *known* person

7.2b Other Actions
The Committee in charge of a competition may reserve the right to:
l Adjust the Playing Handicap of an entrant within the Terms of the Competition
where there is evidence that the player’s Handicap Index does not reflect their
demonstrated ability.


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			No longer as easy for a *known* person

7.2b Other Actions
The Committee in charge of a competition may reserve the right to:
l Adjust the Playing Handicap of an entrant within the Terms of the Competition
where there is evidence that the player’s Handicap Index does not reflect their
demonstrated ability.
		
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That is a very powerful tool that I would hope to see in more club Opens.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The problem of cheats has, and, always will be, something Golf highlights but doesn't, in itself, 'solve'!
		
Click to expand...

It’s not technically cheating though.
Putting in bad scores is just morally wrong.
The system allows them to do it ,


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s not technically cheating though.
Putting in bad scores is just morally wrong.
The system allows them to do it ,
		
Click to expand...

Please explain how you diferentiate 'morally wrong' from 'cheating' - 'technically' or otherwise!
Putting in (genuine) bad scores is not morally wrong/cheating!  Imo, it's totally legit and actually obligatory - as, while it 'only' 'self-harms' for Singles, it would also affect Partner(s) in Pairs etc.
Putting in 'non-genuine' bad scores - in order to manipulate HI upwards - is definitely cheating!


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## fenwayrich (Oct 24, 2020)

richart said:



			CONGU 10.8
WHS 10.7 
Course slope 120
Playing handicap 13.

Category 3 for first time in 45 years. Or have categories been scrapped ?

Click to expand...

Forgive me for asking, but how do you get to a Playing Handicap of 13 with an index of 10.7 and a slope of 120?


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## richart (Oct 24, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			Forgive me for asking, but how do you get to a Playing Handicap of 13 with an index of 10.7 and a slope of 120?
		
Click to expand...

No idea !! Just put in the figures to computer.

Our par is 69, but course index is 70.2 I put my figures into course up the road from me that has a slope Of 125,par 72, index 71.2 and I came out at 11.

Very confusing !


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

richart said:



			No idea !! Just put in the figures to computer.

Our par is 69, but course index is 70.2 I put my figures into course up the road from me that has a slope Of 125,par 72, index 71.2 and I came out at 11.

Very confusing !
		
Click to expand...

Think you need to choose the "without..." option 
https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem


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## AmandaJR (Oct 24, 2020)

Is there any direct correlation between exact HI and Course Handicap. At 6.4 I get 8 shots but would 6.5 give me 9 or is it not as simple as that?


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Is there any direct correlation between exact HI and Course Handicap. At 6.4 I get 8 shots but would 6.5 give me 9 or is it not as simple as that?
		
Click to expand...

Think it would depend on slope, maybe if around 150


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Is there any direct correlation between exact HI and Course Handicap. At 6.4 I get 8 shots but would 6.5 give me 9 or is it not as simple as that?
		
Click to expand...

Amanda. My calc gives Course Handicap of 9 - all the way down to 6.1!

Off Reds (Slope 133; CR=75.3; Par 74) Calc is...CH= (HI*Slope/115 + CR-Par) Rounded. so 6.4*133/115 +75.3-74 rounded = 9.

And No, not that simple - but still 'related'. The rounding happens AFTER the calculation, not before.


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## jim8flog (Oct 24, 2020)

richart said:



			No idea !! Just put in the figures to computer.

Our par is 69, but course index is 70.2 I put my figures into course up the road from me that has a slope Of 125,par 72, index 71.2 and I came out at 11.

Very confusing !
		
Click to expand...

Are you using a program based upon the American System?

Course Rating is irrelevant when converting HI to Course Handicap in the UK

it is simply (HI * slope / 113)


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## AmandaJR (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Amanda. My calc gives Course Handicap of 9 - all the way down to 6.1!

Off Reds (Slope 133; CR=75.3; Par 74) Calc is...CH= (HI*Slope/115 + CR-Par) Rounded. so 6.4*133/115 +75.3-74 rounded = 9.

And No, not that simple - but still 'related'. The rounding happens AFTER the calculation, not before.
		
Click to expand...

Par is 75 which may explain why I get 8 on the England Golf calculator?


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## AmandaJR (Oct 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			Think it would depend on slope, maybe if around 150
		
Click to expand...

Think it's 133. Was thinking of putting in a supp card on Monday as quite fancy 9


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Think it's 133. Was thinking of putting in a supp card on Monday as quite fancy 9 

Click to expand...

I think slope may need to be higher than that. You can play here
https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem
Think it's the "without" option


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Par is 75 which may explain why I get 8 on the England Golf calculator?
		
Click to expand...

It would indeed!
Would seem that a correction to this resource is required....https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=21993


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			I think slope may need to be higher than that. You can play here
https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem
Think it's the "without" option
		
Click to expand...

Er..I believe it's the 'With Par' option.
USGA system uses CR and Index (only). WHS adds Par - and was seen as 'wrong' by Dean Knuth, who created the Slope system.
See this document...https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth
The discussion re Silloth and Southerness elsewhere seems to confirm it too.

Important Edit: Just read the FULL Knuth document above. It seems GB&I agree with Knuth and have opted out of using CR-Par! If that's truly so, it changes lots! And indeed, it's the 'without' option!


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er..I believe it's the 'With Par' option.
USGA system uses CR and Index (only). WHS adds Par - and was seen as 'wrong' by Dean Knuth, who created the Slope system.
See this document...https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth
The discussion re Silloth and Southerness elsewhere seems to confirm it too.
		
Click to expand...

Was going by this...
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2129749


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			Was going by this...
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2129749

Click to expand...

See my update above!
That also means many of the calcs I've done in the last few days have been suspect/wrong too - so apologies to anyone I've mislead!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain how you diferentiate 'morally wrong' from 'cheating' - 'technically' or otherwise!
Putting in (genuine) bad scores is not morally wrong/cheating!  Imo, it's totally legit and actually obligatory - as, while it 'only' 'self-harms' for Singles, it would also affect Partner(s) in Pairs etc.
Putting in 'non-genuine' bad scores - in order to manipulate HI upwards - is definitely cheating!
		
Click to expand...

I could go out with Only A putter and shoot 120/150 is that cheating?
I could play every day and do the same thing.
I am sure I would get a few shots back .
But have technically not done anything against the rules.
Extreme example but possible.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

richart said:



			No idea !! Just put in the figures to computer.

Our par is 69, but course index is 70.2 I put my figures into course up the road from me that has a slope Of 125,par 72, index 71.2 and I came out at 11.

Very confusing !
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, you have used a calculator with Course Rating minus Par
WHS allows opt out of that (so just Course Rating) - and that's what England Golf uses (a fact I've only this evening realised).
Use the Without...option in this Calculator https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem and you'll be less confused.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I could go out with Only A putter and shoot 120/150 is that cheating?
I could play every day and do the same thing.
I am sure I would get a few shots back .
*But have technically not done anything against the rules.*
Extreme example but possible.
		
Click to expand...

How you do it is unimportant. It's WHY you would do it that's important.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			How you do it is unimportant. It's WHY you would do it that's important.
		
Click to expand...

You asked me to Differentiate between morally wrong and cheating ,!
That’s what I did.
The system allows them to do it.
Under Congu they would not get more than .7 if they did that every day in a week .
God knows how many shots they would get back under WHS.
But there is or is there a mechanism to stop that?
You obviously havnt met many handicap manipulators.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Think it's 133. Was thinking of putting in a supp card on Monday as quite fancy 9 

Click to expand...

You might play well and come down.


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2020)

So many members at my club thought their handicap index was their actual new playing handicap, not just an index number to use in association with every slope to obtain their handicap for that round!  

I think it’s quite a widespread confusion. 

Mines exactly the same at my home club, but looking at courses I play elsewhere has shown me where I’ll pick up or lose extra shots due their slope ratings being higher or lower. 

With our slope being the highest in the area, it’s going be interesting when we resume A, B and Senior club matches against clubs in the county, we’ll be surrendering more shots to all visitors 😟


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			So many members at my club thought their handicap index was their actual new playing handicap, not just an index number to use in association with every slope to obtain their handicap for that round! 

I think it’s quite a widespread confusion.
...
		
Click to expand...

Obviously needs to be better/more information about how it works provided.


Fish said:



			...
*Mines exactly the same at my home club*, but looking at courses I play elsewhere has shown me *where I’ll pick up or lose extra shots* due their slope ratings being higher or lower.

With our slope being the highest in the area, it’s going be interesting when we resume A, B and Senior club matches against clubs in the county, *we’ll be surrendering more shots to all visitors* 😟
		
Click to expand...

But you are treating it like a Handicap cf Index too!!


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

Quick question. Should an average of your counting (best 8) numbers in your Score Diff column equal your Handicap Index? Going forward is it an average of your best 8 *Score Diff* results that give you your HI?
(That’s two quick questions, but you know what I mean 😀)


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Quick question. Should an average of your counting (best 8) numbers in your Score Diff column equal your Handicap Index? Going forward is it an average of your best 8 *Score Diff* results that give you your HI?
(That’s two quick questions, but you know what I mean 😀)
		
Click to expand...

EDIT: ignore that, I have found the answer. Maybe I have been looking in the wrong places, but I didn’t find this before and didn’t know about the 96%:-
A handicap index (HI) will be calculated from the player’s best 8 differentials of his/her last 20 rounds *multiplied by 96%*, and will be shown to one decimal point.

I understand it will still be the players responsibility to ensure his/her handicap is correct. On the rare occasion two separate competition rounds are played on the same day, players will need to know how to calculate their handicap correctly, so they may need this information.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You might play well and come down.
		
Click to expand...

Been the story of my year! Stopped trying and handicap going down!


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			It's not necessarily 96%, it's whatever 113/slope is on the relevant course.
For example if slope is 128 it's 88%.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, that interesting. I got the 96% info from a random clubs post.
So, if the slope is 133 it’s 85%?
Hasn’t the slope already been taken into account when calculating the Score Diff?
My HI seems to be right at 96% but going off our slope of 133 = 85% it’s way out.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Been the story of my year! Stopped trying and handicap going down!
		
Click to expand...

Head game ! Watch golf sidekick when he plays with the lady pros ... they are just awesome, no ego, it’s “this is what I can do“ “this is the safest place“.. massive impact to my game, I stopped blasting and played within myself. Somewhere down the line I forgot this, well ever since I have been on forums !
 I used to play at 80% then rev it up on the driver on that wide long hole - which might have been twice a round. But the short game stuff as well, miss it to an easy recovery point or just respect the flag is a sucker position... so golf sidekick well worth 20 minutes


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2020)

All this 96% of this and that.
I can work my handicap out on a fag packet under Congu.
Net score against CSS job done.
Now my heads hurting from all these calculations that you need a computer for.
Just so we can be like the yanks.
Is it just me or is it over complicated.


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## Rock1901 (Oct 25, 2020)

You guys in England are very fortunate to have all your whs info from GUE. The GUI is miles behind England, and only a week to go....
Our handicap secretary only received the first draft of whs handicaps from GUI yesterday. If there are similar issues to those in England were the HI have been calculated for the wrong tees then over here the launch will be a total shambles. So be thankful for what you have.
GUI closed courses in Republic,  which is really odd given you can still play tennis?
However, in Northern Ireland we are thankful that sanity is preserved and our courses are open. But whs launch in a weeks time looks fraught,  when we have no idea what are expected HI is as club golfers at this late stage.


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Sweep said:



			A handicap index (HI) will be calculated from the player’s best 8 differentials of his/her last 20 rounds *multiplied by 96%*, and will be shown to one decimal point.
		
Click to expand...

Where did you get this from? 96% is not mentioned in the Rules.

Although, the old USGA system did have a 96% adjustment. But not now they are on WHS.
The 96% (and a equivalent 93% in Australia) has been moved from the Handicap Index calculation to become the 95% Handicap Allowance for Individual stroke play.


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Where did you get this from? 96% is not mentioned in the Rules.

Although, the old USGA system did have a 96% adjustment. But not now they are on WHS.
The 96% (and a equivalent 93% in Australia) has been moved from the Handicap Index calculation to become the 95% Handicap Allowance for Individual stroke play.
		
Click to expand...

I got it here: http://howdidido.blob.core.windows.net/clubsitespublic/file_0c1d6a8c-eb4f-4a8e-b1b3-827c02db93bf.pdf 
Quote: _All golfers will be provided with a HANDICAP INDEX (HI) when the WHS comes into operation. This handicap index (HI) will be calculated from the player’s best 8 differentials of his/her last 20 rounds multiplied by 96%, and will be shown to one decimal point. _
This seems to equate to my HI. If I take an average of my counting Score Diffs it comes out 0.7 higher than my HI. When multiplied by 96% it comes out right.
I am guessing this is to calculate your first HI and then after this it’s simply an average of your best 8 Score Differentials from your last 20?


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Obviously needs to be better/more information about how it works provided.

But you are treating it like a Handicap cf Index too!!
		
Click to expand...

No I’m not, my current index would give me a higher handicap at Woodhall and most clubs around me with slopes of 130 or less I’d be playing off a lower handicap than my current handicap based at my home club on my current index.


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## EamonnC (Oct 25, 2020)

CONGU    15.2
Handicap Index 15.7
New Course Handicap 19 (White), 18(Yellow)

The index does not include non-qualifying games where I have played well. Calculated my index including these scores goes down to 13.1 which would give a course handicap of 16(white) and 15(yellow).


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## Limey99 (Oct 25, 2020)

CONGU 15.6

WHS 8.4

????


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2020)

Limey99 said:



			CONGU 15.6

WHS 8.4

????
		
Click to expand...

What is the slope of your course?


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## Limey99 (Oct 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What is the slope of your course?
		
Click to expand...

Course rating is 72.0 and slope 125. So don’t think it has been rated yet, which seems to make my WHS index meaningless at the mo. The par for my course is 67 and its SSS is lower still.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2020)

Limey99 said:



			Course rating is 72.0 and slope 125. So don’t think it has been rated yet, which seems to make my WHS index meaningless at the mo. The par for my course is 67 and its SSS is lower still.
		
Click to expand...

And what is your handicap index?


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## Limey99 (Oct 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			And what is your handicap index?
		
Click to expand...

My WHS index is 8.4. All the WHS qualifying rounds were on my home course.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2020)

Limey99 said:



			My WHS index is 8.4
		
Click to expand...

That’s not your playing handicap .

Take your handicap index 8.4 x the slope of the course and tees you are playing and divide that by 113.

95% of that is your playing handicap

So 8.4 x 125 = 1050
Divide by 113 = 9.29
95% of that is   8.83 which is 9 your playing handicap

Your whites and yellows will have different slopes and it’s possible that your slope quoted is incorrect 

It’s quite a drop , have you been putting in some good scores recently?


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## Limey99 (Oct 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			That’s not your playing handicap .

Take your handicap index 8.4 x the slope of the course and tees you are playing and divide that by 113.

95% of that is your playing handicap

So 8.4 x 125 = 1050
Divide by 113 = 9.29
95% of that is   8.83 which is 9 your playing handicap

Your whites and yellows will have different slopes and it’s possible that your slope quoted is incorrect

It’s quite a drop , have you been putting in some good scores recently?
		
Click to expand...

Best 3 out of the last 12 were +8, +15, +17 on my home course (par 67).
Think the issue is the course rating of my home course is 72.0, which may be a default value. Anything derived from that will be suspect.


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I got it here: http://howdidido.blob.core.windows.net/clubsitespublic/file_0c1d6a8c-eb4f-4a8e-b1b3-827c02db93bf.pdf
Quote: _All golfers will be provided with a HANDICAP INDEX (HI) when the WHS comes into operation. This handicap index (HI) will be calculated from the player’s best 8 differentials of his/her last 20 rounds multiplied by 96%, and will be shown to one decimal point. _
This seems to equate to my HI. If I take an average of my counting Score Diffs it comes out 0.7 higher than my HI. When multiplied by 96% it comes out right.
I am guessing this is to calculate your first HI and then after this it’s simply an average of your best 8 Score Differentials from your last 20?
		
Click to expand...

Goodness knows where Sidcup GC got that from. It does not appear on their website. But I notice it includes the following:-

_"Players will be able to see their expected Transition Handicap on screen when the handicapping software is updated in *Spring 2019*. Players are encouraged to submit plenty of scores *between now and 2020 * ..........."_


There is no mention of 96% in the table for determining an initial Index (Rule 5.2)

I wonder if you have not allowed for the fact that the transition software did not allow for the possible difference between SSS and CSS.


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Goodness knows where Sidcup GC got that from. It does not appear on their website. But I notice it includes the following:-

_"Players will be able to see their expected Transition Handicap on screen when the handicapping software is updated in *Spring 2019*. Players are encouraged to submit plenty of scores *between now and 2020 * ..........."_


There is no mention of 96% in the table for determining an initial Index (Rule 5.2)

I wonder if you have not allowed for the fact that the transition software did not allow for the possible difference between SSS and CSS.
		
Click to expand...

Many thanks. I must say I thought it was strange and It could of course be a very old webpage. Just coincidence that it worked out for my index.
I only really looked because I added up all my counting Score Differentials and the average didn’t equal my index, so I was making sure I understood correctly that going forward it is the average of your best 8 from last 20 Score Differentials that forms your Handicap Index?
I am sure the reason my current average doesn’t equate to my HI is very possibly due to the transition software not allowing for the difference between SSS and CSS. I can’t think of another reason. Do you know when this will be resolved?


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## IanM (Oct 25, 2020)

Looks like it’s only taken a few scores and ignored the rest. Only 2 scores have a green dot next to them.  (As in used). Wonder why it did that?  It’s missed lots of qualifiers.

 Is it another ”wait till 2nd Nov” foible?


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			No I’m not, my current index would give me a higher handicap at Woodhall and most clubs around me with slopes of 130 or less I’d be playing off a lower handicap than my current handicap based at my home club on my current index.
		
Click to expand...

Which is exactly the way it's meant to work!

But your reference to 'additional' shots for visitors to your place certainly has the implication that their 'Handicap' is being boosted (compared to their handicap at their home course) even though it could be the same as your own! And that's exactly the way the system is meant to work!


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Do you know when this will be resolved?
		
Click to expand...

They say on the night of the live run. They are not publishing any test runs in the meantime.


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## Sweep (Oct 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			They say on the night of the live run. They are not publishing any test runs in the meantime.
		
Click to expand...

That’s great. Thanks. Only a week to go so we will wait and see.


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## MarkT (Oct 26, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Was on 23
New HC is 26 off the whites
25 off the yellows

Imurg is up 3 to 9 and CVG is up 5 to 18, but he is a grandad.

We are playing a bounce game tomorrow and will try out the new numbers and report back 👍
		
Click to expand...

How did the game go with the new handicaps?


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## SimonC (Oct 26, 2020)

CONGU 5.0
WHS 1.7 
Course slope 123
Par 68 
Course rating 68.6
Playing handicap 2

Seems like a big drop in my handicap, think I may struggle to win anything at my home course now.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 26, 2020)

MarkT said:



			How did the game go with the new handicaps?
		
Click to expand...

Post 46 is your friend 😂😎

I’d hate to repeat it and wind him up even more 😂


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## Ssshank (Oct 26, 2020)

My index has fallen from 4.0 to 2.2.

What's worrying is this could potentially fall lower as my best score hasn't been taken into account.
The system has recorded the round as 67 over par being played off the ladies tees when I shot 1 under off the back tees, what a system =).


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2020)

What I don’t understand is ,I have been playing my course for years , every comp so playing off 6 is my correct cap.
But under WHS I am at a stroke now off 7.
Was the Congu handicap Wrong all those years.


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Congu 20
Index 18.4

On the course I play the slope adjusts it to 20 so when I play at home there is no change. That makes sense when I think about it.
		
Click to expand...



ditto mine. All seems good.......apart from the local course ratings.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Post 46 is your friend 😂😎

I’d hate to repeat it and wind him up even more 😂
		
Click to expand...

Not going to mention today off real handicaps then..


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## Sweep (Oct 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What I don’t understand is ,I have been playing my course for years , every comp so playing off 6 is my correct cap.
But under WHS I am at a stroke now off 7.
Was the Congu handicap Wrong all those years.
		
Click to expand...

Your CONGU Handicap and your WHS Handicap Index are not the same thing and shouldn’t be confused.
Much depends on the Stroke Index of your course and tees you play off and what was /is the SSS / CSS.
Your index is just the number that’s you use to determine your course handicap.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not going to mention today off real handicaps then..

Click to expand...

What’s a real handicap now?


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## Imurg (Oct 27, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			What’s a real handicap now?
		
Click to expand...

Until next Monday - your CONGU one....


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Until next Monday - your CONGU one....

Click to expand...

I suspect it still will be given the fun and games in the calculation... feels like the higher handicaps are getting given a lot more shots, the mids fluctuate a bit and the lows can all be on tour ... but that’s just a quick preliminary assessment, which hopefully will change.


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Haven't done the poll as still not clear on what question the OP is asking.

To borrow from elsewhere:



rulefan said:



			Your Handicap Index is course independent.
Your Course Handicap is course specific.
Your Playing Handicap is course and format specific.

One layer at a time.
		
Click to expand...


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

Sweep said:



			EDIT: 

I understand it will still be the players responsibility to ensure his/her handicap is correct. On the rare occasion two separate competition rounds are played on the same day, players will need to know how to calculate their handicap correctly, so they may need this information.
		
Click to expand...

 Your HI remains the same for the whole day.  There is no longer any need to self adjust.


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What I don’t understand is ,I have been playing my course for years , every comp so playing off 6 is my correct cap.
But under WHS I am at a stroke now off 7.
Was the Congu handicap Wrong all those years.
		
Click to expand...

It could be the remeasure of the course

 How does the Course Rating compare against the SSS/CSS.
Do not forget that there appears to be a problem with conversions taking in to account CSS.

We have along and a short course with different SSSs and Course Ratings and Slopes but checking individual scores this has not been taken in to account.


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## Fabia999 (Oct 27, 2020)

CONGU: 22.7
WHS: 19.4

my PP has gone from 30 down to 22.


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## Sweep (Oct 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Your HI remains the same for the whole day.  There is no longer any need to self adjust.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! This answers a big question for me.


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What I don’t understand is ,I have been playing my course for years , every comp so playing off 6 is my correct cap.
But under WHS I am at a stroke now off 7.
Was the Congu handicap Wrong all those years.
		
Click to expand...

 One other factor to take in to consideration is that if you buffer under the UHS it has no impact it does under the WHS.

Worth looking back at the whole WHS scores over the past 3 years to see all the slight changes. Having looked at mine the only times that my handicap index remained the same was when I shot well over handicap which would not have affected best 8.


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Kaz said:



			After SGs latest recalc I am now showing at 1.0 (vs congu 2.5). At my home course that means getting 1 shot rather than 3.

More interestingly, I’m increasingly hearing mid handicappers surprised that they are going to come down, some by several shots. And also high handicaps looking like going up by several shots. There may be trouble ahead.....
		
Click to expand...

There may be.. .but might it be relatively short term while things re-balance?

[typed while looking for a high handicapper for the non Q winter pairs 😁]


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## azazel (Oct 27, 2020)

I'm now 3.8 after the Scottish Golf update last night, versus 5.2 Congu. That means I'll get four at my home course.


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## banjofred (Oct 27, 2020)

I'm just making the effort to figure things out. I've dropped from 9.6 to 7.7. After adding my best 8 (I think each was better than my real score, but adjusted down on the day) from How Did I Do, my average was 80.87.......difference from par is 8.87. Now I need to figure out how they got to 7.7

From what I've seen on the clubs handicap list, I've been moved lower than some guys that had handicaps a shot or so lower than mine. It is what it is.......  I've also seen at least 6? people on the hc list playing off 54 now.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One other factor to take in to consideration is that if you buffer under the UHS it has no impact it does under the WHS.

Worth looking back at the whole WHS scores over the past 3 years to see all the slight changes. Having looked at mine the only times that my handicap index remained the same was when I shot well over handicap which would not have affected best 8.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.
But if this is supposed to be better and simpler then it’s not working for me, ( not very techie)
Having to check 3 years of scores to see if it’s correct!
Not that bothered ,could do with a few shots back to compete against all the bandits.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 27, 2020)

So where are we now? There's under four full normal working days until this goes live. It seems to be updating daily so I'd make that three more spins of the data wheel and I get the sense they're just going to keep putting money in the puggy and see if they get a row of bells before end of play on Friday because thus far it just seems to be coming up with lemons.

I'd love to have a peer behind the curtain but I'd probably just get annoyed at what I found.


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

Lot of people indicated that their HC index is lower  so is mine, when I take the slope of my course into account I'm playing if one more than my present HC, I have run the clubs annual review report which advises a one shot increase so Bob's your auntie works out about right.


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## MarkT (Oct 27, 2020)

I've tried for days to get mine but they're still saying they're using an email from the last millennium. I've just re-read every comment on here, a lot of you seem to have a very strong grasp of the brave new world - so thanks for all your insights


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

MarkT said:



			I've tried for days to get mine but they're still saying they're using an email from the last millennium. I've just re-read every comment on here, a lot of you seem to have a very strong grasp of the brave new world - so thanks for all your insights
		
Click to expand...

You need to check what email your club hold for you on their system


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2020)

Seems to me as if some on here are just nit picking. Did you ask so many questions about your congu H/C? No you just accepted it for what is was. Now something new comes along and WOAH !!!!! throw your hand up in the air. LordY LOrdY Lordy. 

You've got a new H/C. You go to the course to play. The course you are to play has a big BIG MASSIVE list up to show you what H/C to use at their course. Away to go.

For Gods sake how bluddy hard are you making all this ?


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## MarkT (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You need to check what email your club hold for you on their system
		
Click to expand...

The club have got the right email and I get all their correspondence, sure they've got enough on their hands for now


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## 2blue (Oct 27, 2020)

MarkT said:



			The club have got the right email and I get all their correspondence, sure they've got enough on their hands for now
		
Click to expand...

It could be that you're getting all their correspondence through BRS but that the email on H/cap software if different. Don't know.... just a thought, matey


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## brickie (Oct 27, 2020)

CONGU 13.2
INDEX 11.1
95% off the whites = 10.4
3 shots gone and the lowest playing handicap I've ever had!! 
don't know whether to laugh or cry


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

brickie said:



			CONGU 13.2
INDEX 11.1
95% off the whites = 10.4
3 shots gone and the lowest playing handicap I've ever had!!
don't know whether to laugh or cry
		
Click to expand...

What's the course & slope rating?


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## brickie (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			What's the course & slope rating?
		
Click to expand...

Course is Bracken Ghyll and slope rating is 119.
Just had another look at the chart and I think I misread first time and I'll play off 11


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## ExRabbit (Oct 28, 2020)

Just checked my HI again today, and it has dropped from 20.4 to 19.2, which seems to suggest they have now taken CSS into consideration as I have not played any rounds since, and around 19.0 was where I expected to go to.

EDIT: Actually, no it hasn't taken it into account when I look at my scores in hdid - so I have no idea why it has moved.

Very confusing!


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## bernix (Oct 28, 2020)

slightly down from 10.2 to 9.6


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## Dellboy (Oct 28, 2020)

Was playing off 18.1, index now 15.9
Our slop index is 125 yellows & 130 of whites, which gives me 18 shots on each, so nothing really has changed for me at home.


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## rulefan (Oct 28, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Just checked my HI again today, and it has dropped from 20.4 to 19.2, which seems to suggest they have now taken CSS into consideration as I have not played any rounds since, and around 19.0 was where I expected to go to.

EDIT: Actually, no it hasn't taken it into account when I look at my scores in hdid - so I have no idea why it has moved.

Very confusing!
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure it has changed? They weren't go to do another run 'til Nov 1-2


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## Doubleshank (Oct 28, 2020)

Congu 6.8   WHS HI 1.3!!!!
slope 126
5 comp scores in the system since returning back to golf this year 79, 85, 72, 87, 79 (sss 71)
seems only the freak 72 is being used in the calc...mental.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Doubleshank said:



			Congu 6.8   WHS HI 1.3!!!!
slope 126
5 comp scores in the system since returning back to golf this year 79, 85, 72, 87, 79 (sss 71)
seems only the freak 72 is being used in the calc...mental.
		
Click to expand...

Cant access the info yet but if memory serves there is a sliding scale for how many cards are counted depending on how many you have and I believe up to 5=1 6 goes to 2 and upwards.

Have you registered on the EG site yet and the cards used will be highlighted.


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## Doubleshank (Oct 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Cant access the info yet but if memory serves there is a sliding scale for how many cards are counted depending on how many you have and I believe up to 5=1 6 goes to 2 and upwards.

Have you registered on the EG site yet and the cards used will be highlighted.
		
Click to expand...

Yes only 1 card of 5 is highlighted on the EG site - the 72.
so potentially if 2 of six cards are used my HI could go up significantl?


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

@Doubleshank


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## Doubleshank (Oct 28, 2020)

Thanks for that, no chance of winning anything for a long time then! At least I can tell the kids I was once a 1 handicap. Haha


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## Sweep (Oct 28, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Seems to me as if some on here are just nit picking. Did you ask so many questions about your congu H/C? No you just accepted it for what is was. Now something new comes along and WOAH !!!!! throw your hand up in the air. LordY LOrdY Lordy.

You've got a new H/C. You go to the course to play. The course you are to play has a big BIG MASSIVE list up to show you what H/C to use at their course. Away to go.

For Gods sake how bluddy hard are you making all this ?
		
Click to expand...

I think you make a fair point, but I think we could see this coming.
Most golfers, I think, are content to just see what the computer says and play from there. However, it has possibly been overlooked that very keen golfers most often track their handicap. It’s important to them. They try very hard to reduce it (usually) and it’s a big part of their main recreational activity. The new system makes tracking much more difficult if not impossible. The good side to this is that it makes manipulation harder.

We are all used to the CONGU system, we know when we will get a cut and by how many and when we get 0.1 back. So when a new system comes out that throws out a new handicap keen golfers want to know the reasons behind their new number. I think we can accept that most people on here fall into the category of keen golfer, so there was bound to be a lot of discussion.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I think you make a fair point, but I think we could see this coming.
Most golfers, I think, are content to just see what the computer says and play from there. However, it has possibly been overlooked that very keen golfers most often track their handicap. It’s important to them. They try very hard to reduce it (usually) and it’s a big part of their main recreational activity. The new system makes tracking much more difficult if not impossible. The good side to this is that it makes manipulation harder.

We are all used to the CONGU system, we know when we will get a cut and by how many and when we get 0.1 back. So when a new system comes out that throws out a new handicap keen golfers want to know the reasons behind their new number. I think we can accept that most people on here fall into the category of keen golfer, so there was bound to be a lot of discussion.
		
Click to expand...

This exactly .
Worked to get back to 6 cap again but on Nov 2nd I am off 7.
Course hasn’t got any harder.


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## jim8flog (Oct 28, 2020)

brickie said:



			CONGU 13.2
INDEX 11.1
95% off the whites = 10.4
3 shots gone and the lowest playing handicap I've ever had!!
don't know whether to laugh or cry
		
Click to expand...

What is your course slope rating - remember it is (H.I x Slope Rating/113)  for your Course Handicap which you then get 95%.


Edit- just seen somebody else already pointed this out.


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## ExRabbit (Oct 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you sure it has changed? They weren't go to do another run 'til Nov 1-2
		
Click to expand...

Yes - I know our h/cap sec very well and he asked me to check mine as soon as it went live, and it was 20.4 then.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Current Handicap = 8.4
Handicap Index = 8.9, Course handicap Whites (133) = 10.5

Just when we came out of lockdown, I shot 2 consecutive rounds close to par, Exceptional Score Reduction, and handicap was 5.8. That was 49 rounds ago, and WHS indicated my Index would have been cut to 6.4 after that 2nd round. I have been pretty poor since. By August my Congu handicap had gone to 8.7 (Index would have gone up to 9.8). However, I had a good couple of weeks in September. with 3 79's followed by a 72. That got my Congu handicap back to 8.1, my Index would have gone to 8.4.

After my last round, my index went from 8.4 to 8.9, even though my latest round made by best 8. This is because lost a lower round than that, from 21 rounds ago. However, my oldest 7 rounds now do not feature in my top 8. so that looks like I am in a position to get some cuts if I can get the odd decent round in.


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## Tommy10 (Oct 28, 2020)

CONGU 21.9
WHS 19.3

Course rating 71.9, slope is 132 so i'll be playing off 23 from whites but with 95% for strokeplay i'll be playing off 22


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Since I've got > 20 scores this wasn't really on my radar until now.

This is great - I was worried about some of our high handicappers who don't have many qualifying comps and looked like getting big increases but the method above will mitigate that!
		
Click to expand...

Not so sure.
Guy at mine only four cards in has gone from 19.5 to 34 cap.
He is fuming ,only found out this morning.

Another has gone 14 cards , 21.3 to 33 cap.
He’s not to happy either.
Great discussion on first tee .
“ I am not playing in the sweep with them two next week “ was very loud.
One of our ladies has gone from 38 to 60 ?.?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I looked at "improving" high handicappers who'd been cut recently and I feared they were just going to go back up. Not so under this formula.

This method actually keeps handicaps of those with a low number of cards lower than they would with the average of the best 8. I obviously haven't seen the data but if your guy with 14 cards averaged his best 8 it'd come out higher than 33.

The guy with four cards in - that means the best of those was +35! What does he expect? He needs to play better and put some cards in!
		
Click to expand...

He’s a new member .
But put 3 cards in and they gave him a 20 cap.
Don’t know what his scores were but 20 sounds harsh if you look at his WHS one.


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## peld (Oct 28, 2020)

im 15.2 therefore 15c, and my HI will be 14.8. 

However at my club where we have two courses, ill play off 11, 12 , 16 or 18 !!!


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## Sweep (Oct 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This exactly .
Worked to get back to 6 cap again but on Nov 2nd I am off 7.
Course hasn’t got any harder.
		
Click to expand...

What is the slope index of your course? Have you checked what your course handicap will be? If your course has a high slope index, you may get that shot back in your course handicap.

Remember too that most comps will have an adjustment (eg medal I think is 95%) which will have been factored in.
I know what you mean though. It’s hard to take when you have put a lot of effort into getting your handicap down.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Sweep said:



			What is the slope index of your course? Have you checked what your course handicap will be? If your course has a high slope index, you may get that shot back in your course handicap.

Remember too that most comps will have an adjustment (eg medal I think is 95%) which will have been factored in.
I know what you mean though. It’s hard to take when you have put a lot of effort into getting your handicap down.
		
Click to expand...

129 slope.
Can’t belive some of the gains / losses from others though.
Just have to wait for it all to settle down.
Be some interesting scores early doors next year.


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## peld (Oct 28, 2020)

do supplementary cards count? 
I currently have 6 counting cards but put a supplementary in at the weekend which hasnt shown.  It'll drop my index by 0.2, which will then cost me a shot!


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

peld said:



			do supplementary cards count?
I currently have 6 counting cards but put a supplementary in at the weekend which hasnt shown.  It'll drop my index by 0.2, which will then cost me a shot!
		
Click to expand...

Should be uploaded 1 Nov


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## MarkT (Oct 28, 2020)

Here's the piece, thanks to all. Sure there will be plenty to nibble away at and scratch our heads at in the coming months  

https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news...onthly-forum-reacts-to-new-whs-indexes-210053


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## HankMarvin (Oct 28, 2020)

Handicap 4
Handicap index 1.3 🤔


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			😂
Sorry but that all tickled me.

It's all so bonkers I'm no longer peed off.

I'm still laughing at the poor guy who's managed to get down to 19.4 but next week has to declare he plays off 34 😅😅.
		
Click to expand...

Still laughing if you get him in the next round of the winter knockout...


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## JamesR (Oct 28, 2020)

Anyone re-checked their index?
Mine has just gone up 0.1 since I last looked.
Perhaps they’ve updated them.


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## Imurg (Oct 28, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Anyone re-checked their index?
Mine has just gone up 0.1 since I last looked.
Perhaps they’ve updated them.
		
Click to expand...

Yep. Mine's down 0.2 on yesterday but there's still one score outstanding.?
Not sure why the change ...


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## JamesR (Oct 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Yep. Mine's down 0.2 on yesterday but there's still one score outstanding.?
Not sure why the change ...
		
Click to expand...

I haven’t played in October , so I’d have thought mine was already up to date!?!


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## Imurg (Oct 28, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I haven’t played in October , so I’d have thought mine was already up to date!?!
		
Click to expand...

There's obviously small tweaks going on as the system settles itself down...
My outstanding card is from 29th September...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			On Sunday he gets 17 shots.
On Monday he gets 32...
😅😅😅
		
Click to expand...

Best you play him Sunday then


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 28, 2020)

You're right Traminator.........it's laughable. I do not reckon this system one bit.
My mate was off 15 at his Yorkshire Club and slowly slipped to 20. Off 20 he became a daily winner on our Scottish Tour last month, and his confidence is returning.
His new Handicap Index? 28.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Anyone re-checked their index?
Mine has just gone up 0.1 since I last looked.
Perhaps they’ve updated them.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like they are working there way through the system as mine has just moved by .1


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			On Sunday he gets 17 shots.
On Monday he gets 32...
😅😅😅
		
Click to expand...

Nobody should get that many shots .
They need a limit a scratch golfer can give away imo.
28 should be max imo.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody should get that many shots .
They need a limit a scratch golfer can give away imo.
28 should be max imo.
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps clubs should run different comps to accommodate all players.


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## Imurg (Oct 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody should get that many shots .
They need a limit a scratch golfer can give away imo.
28 should be max imo.
		
Click to expand...

Fragger's  ex FiL played with him at Hindhead today...
Alan loves playing
Alan's not very good though
He got 15 points 
Playing off 54......some people need all those shots..


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## Sweep (Oct 28, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Anyone re-checked their index?
Mine has just gone up 0.1 since I last looked.
Perhaps they’ve updated them.
		
Click to expand...

Mine has gone up 0.1 as well


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Fragger's  ex FiL played with him at Hindhead today...
Alan loves playing
Alan's not very good though
He got 15 points
Playing off 54......some people need all those shots..
		
Click to expand...

He should take up snooker.


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

Like others my current displayed index has gone up 0.2, to 8.1.
Still no scores for 2020 (current club) but pretty sure that's the club's fault. Am expecting another increase when they land.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Anyone re-checked their index?
Mine has just gone up 0.1 since I last looked.
Perhaps they’ve updated them.
		
Click to expand...

Mine seems to have come down 0.1.


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mine seems to have come down 0.1. 

Click to expand...

so that’s where it went


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## banjofred (Oct 29, 2020)

If nothing else, I think this is going to get me to put in a supplement card at least once or twice a month.


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## MendieGK (Oct 29, 2020)

After all my moaning it seems I was correct all along. Handicap has gone from 1.3 to 0.6, as they’ve clearly taken the CSS into account properly now. Thank god


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

Obviously little tweaks gong on.

This morning mine equalled my own calculation.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 29, 2020)

Currently playing off 17 exact, new hcap from 2nd 15.2, Thankyou. Hcap on my home course from 2nd 18 🤔. Last 18 hole Q comp today.


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Agreed, but not convinced a 19.4 needs 34 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree the jump looks big but from years of serving of on a handicap committee there are a lot of player with vanity handicaps.
When we have done the handicap review we get more appeals for players who we have put their handicap up and than we do from those whose handicap we have increased.

One of the problems through the years is not being able to players up to a handicap that their scores really reflect.


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## Imurg (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33181
Woke up this morning to even more ridiculousness, suddenly gone from +1.5  to +2... 🤔

CSS has never changed from SSS, I've tried hard to follow how it's worked out but this change has just confused the heck out of me.

Only saving grace is I will have 3 scores from October to go in, but what a farce...
		
Click to expand...

Sounds entirely justified to me..


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## Sweep (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33181
Woke up this morning to even more ridiculousness, suddenly gone from +1.5  to +2... 🤔

CSS has never changed from SSS, I've tried hard to follow how it's worked out but this change has just confused the heck out of me.

Only saving grace is I will have 3 scores from October to go in, but what a farce...
		
Click to expand...

Congratulations. I would keep that screenshot and show everyone.


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 29, 2020)

Mine has gone to 5.0 from 5.1 since yesterday. 

I don't know why it's showing that I'm top 4% of Norfolk though as my club is based in Middlesex...


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## Scott W (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Mine's showing as Norfolk too.
I think I had an ice cream in Kings Lynn once 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I am showing as top 40% in Sussex...club is in Surrey


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## TheJezster (Oct 29, 2020)

Scott W said:



			I am showing as top 40% in Sussex...club is in Surrey
		
Click to expand...

I'm in Surrey and it's showing Sussex for me too!!


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 29, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			I'm in Surrey and it's showing Sussex for me too!!
		
Click to expand...

Hmm, I'm thinking that perhaps there's just a slight glitch in some background code as it's seem to pick up the next county in alphabetical order of where our clubs are?


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33181
Woke up this morning to even more ridiculousness, suddenly gone from +1.5  to +2... 🤔

CSS has never changed from SSS, I've tried hard to follow how it's worked out but this change has just confused the heck out of me.

Only saving grace is I will have 3 scores from October to go in, but what a farce...
		
Click to expand...

The scary thing about plus handicap is that, if your slope is over 113, your playing handicap goes down when you do the calcs.
A mate of mine is +4.4, out slope is 127, so his course handicap is +5 😱


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Well the first scary thing is that I'm not a real plus 😅
I know it's bonkers, I hate to say this but for the first time ever I think I'm going to be spending the next few months hoping I don't score low numbers. 
I wouldn't dream of *deliberately* not scoring the best I can, but I can see why people would, which is pretty sad.
		
Click to expand...

Another lad at our place has gone from +2.8, his index is now +5.1, with a playing handicap on the whites of +6.
It is mental. I thought I'd been hard done to losing 1 shot 

Like you say, I can imagine some people trying to get higher handicaps. Fortunately all my best scores are at the start of my 20 rounds, so I'll be losing a few low ones come next April. Just have to hope I can match them


----------



## HampshireHog (Oct 29, 2020)

Dropped another .4 today now at 8.9.  Once October is added then I think maybe 8.4.

Glad it’s coming in the this year had a terrible year, carrying a shoulder injury, last year and would have probably been 15.


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## Junior (Oct 29, 2020)

Im down from 4.6 to 4.4 now.  Actual is 5.6.  At my home course with the adjustments I'll play off 5. 

Few of the old boys are not happy.  They NR a lot and often put NR on a lot of, if not, each hole in their scorecard .  I wonder if this is why they have jumped so much..?

I just think its all pointless and a fat waste of money.   I know the reasons why and that we are aligning with the rest of the world etc etc but  I prefer the old system.


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

Noticing players with + handicaps or low single figures going even lower the question has to asked is - How many scores are in your handicap record?

Having less than about 16 can make a big difference.


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## hines57 (Oct 29, 2020)

17.7 CONGU up to Handicap Index of 19.2. means I'll be playing off 20 from the Whites and 19 from the Yellows when the 95% is applied!!


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Noticing players with + handicaps or low single figures going even lower the question has to asked is - How many scores are in your handicap record?

Having less than about 16 can make a big difference.
		
Click to expand...

It was predicted that low handicappers would probably end up with lower indexes and playing handicaps than their congu handicaps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2020)

Mines gone to 2.3 - course handicap 2 at my place , interesting times ahead 😀


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

JamesR said:



			It was predicted that low handicappers would probably end up with lower indexes and playing handicaps than their congu handicaps.
		
Click to expand...

 I had already posted this in another thread

One Dorset player who has a CONGU handicap of 7 has a predicted H.I. of zero because he only has 5 scores on his record and the best one sets his H.I..


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## IainP (Oct 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33181
Woke up this morning to even more ridiculousness, suddenly gone from +1.5  to +2... 🤔

CSS has never changed from SSS, I've tried hard to follow how it's worked out but this change has just confused the heck out of me.

Only saving grace is I will have 3 scores from October to go in, but what a farce...
		
Click to expand...

Well it's decided. You're going to have to try to qualify for The Open now. You can do a blog and vlog.
Traminator's quest for The Open
😁🤣😉
We're all behind you 👍⛳


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had already posted this in another thread

One Dorset player who has a CONGU handicap of 7 has a predicted H.I. of zero because he only has 5 scores on his record and the best one sets his H.I..
		
Click to expand...

I can give lots of examples of low and plus handicappers who have far more than 16 scores and have come down. Including a now plus 4 index, who has played over 50 rounds this season. He was previously on +2.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had already posted this in another thread

One Dorset player who has a CONGU handicap of 7 has a predicted H.I. of zero because he only has 5 scores on his record and the best one sets his H.I..
		
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How has a 7 capper only got 5 scores.?
That dosnt seem right!


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 29, 2020)

I was Congu 11.1. Then logged onto the WHS platform earlier this week, it was 11.6. Now I'm down to 11.3. Looking at my history, it has me as 8.8 in July '18.
I have NEVER been lower than 11.0.
Puzzled Yorkshire hacker.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 29, 2020)

A few days ago my WHS handicap was 4.7 up on my CONGU handicap. Today it is only 3.6 up, without any additional score having been added? It is still completely wrong though as all our club scores have been processed as though they were from the yellow tees and will hopefully be corrected before we can play again on 9th November.


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			How has a 7 capper only got 5 scores.?
That dosnt seem right!
		
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I do not actually know but was told it by the County Handicap sec.

handicap protection maybe? only playing in pairs comps!!


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			A few days ago my WHS handicap was 4.7 up on my CONGU handicap. Today it is only 3.6 up, without any additional score having been added? It is still completely wrong though as all our club scores have been processed as though they were from the yellow tees and will hopefully be corrected before we can play again on 9th November.
		
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This yellow tee issue seems strange. I can understand the maths being wrong in the algorithm but as I presume it's a straight drag through of info from one system to another the data at the original point might be wrong and comps may have been set up wrong  anyone with this problem got the club to check back and see how the original comp was set up?
Just a thought.


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

From EG

Competition Scratch Score (CSS) and Mapping of Tees
We are happy to provide clubs with an immediate update on the questions of CSS and mapping of tees.


All historical data regarding the CSS has now been successfully pulled from the old system and included on the new one


Our team is currently working to refresh elements of the new system which deal with the mapping of tees and courses


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You guys are virtually making it out like he's done something wrong...

Maybe he or a family member has been ill, maybe he's lost his golf mojo temporarily like we all can, maybe he's been shielding, maybe he works at the nearby Naval Air Station and has been away working? (OK the last one is a bit of a stretch for a WAFU) 🙂

Either way, if he's a proper 7 handicap, it's a ludicrous system that now cuts him to Zero just because he hasn't played much 🤷‍♂️
		
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I wasn’t saying anything of the kind.
not many people come into the game on a single figure handicap
so it could be a clerical error.
You should not jump to conclusions i was just asking a question, 
He is more or less the same cap as me and scores go back 3 years I was told.
He may have been out the game for longer than that.
But it’s very unusual for a 7 cap to just stop playing.
Agree the last bit. This system doesn’t recognise your playing history ,only your last 20 rounds.
That could be the last 3 weeks for some people.


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## fenwayrich (Oct 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			A few days ago my WHS handicap was 4.7 up on my CONGU handicap. Today it is only 3.6 up, without any additional score having been added? It is still completely wrong though as all our club scores have been processed as though they were from the yellow tees and will hopefully be corrected before we can play again on 9th November.
		
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All ours are showing as though they have been played off the reds, although the CSS adjustment has now been made. The scores on the England Golf database are all correct (although there are quite a few missing!), so hopefully when the thing goes live on Monday everything will be corrected. Hopefully........


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

Junior said:



			I prefer the old system.
		
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When did you last play under the new system?


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			This yellow tee issue seems strange. I can understand the maths being wrong in the algorithm but as I presume it's a straight drag through of info from one system to another the data at the original point might be wrong and comps may have been set up wrong  anyone with this problem got the club to check back and see how the original comp was set up?
Just a thought.
		
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It is strange as last year we were using HowDidIDo and this year Master Scoreboard so it involves two different software providers. When you look at the handicap history, that is all wrong as well, showing way more than the actual.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 30, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			All ours are showing as though they have been played off the reds, although the CSS adjustment has now been made. The scores on the England Golf database are all correct (although there are quite a few missing!), so hopefully when the thing goes live on Monday everything will be corrected. Hopefully........
		
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We've got an extra week for it to be corrected as we can't play until 9th November at the earliest due to the firebreak lockdown.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2020)

My HI is a little lower than my exact handicap.  When I factor that by my club course slope my CH is a little higher than my current handicap.  When I then factor 0.95 for singles (if that is the factor) then my PH for singles at my own course is almost exactly the same as my current handicap (well singles PH is 0.2 higher than current exact)


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

MarkT said:



			To help with an online piece for the website can you let us know how your handicap has been affected with the new index and provide as much info and background as possible in the comments below. Much obliged..
		
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Not sure if you’re still looking at this but I’m a bit dubious on the slope ratings. There’s two courses in my area, one where as a society we average 6 strokes better and yet that is rated easier than the other course. The concept of the system seems great but I don’t think there’s a mechanism in place to change the slopes over time from what I’m hearing Which seems bizarre.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Not sure if you’re still looking at this but I’m a bit dubious on the slope ratings. There’s two courses in my area, one where as a society we average 6 strokes better and yet that is rated easier than the other course. The concept of the system seems great but I don’t think there’s a mechanism in place to change the slopes over time from what I’m hearing Which seems bizarre.
		
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What are the course ratings for the two courses?


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

IainP said:



			What are the course ratings for the two courses?
		
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129 for the easier one and 125 for the harder one.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			129 for the easier one and 125 for the harder one.
		
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That's the slopes, the course ratings better articulate difficulty.


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

IainP said:



			That's the slopes, the course ratings better articulate difficulty.
		
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Off Whites.
Easy course. Par 71 course 69.4 bogey 93.9 slope actually 132
harder course (I’m a member of). par 72. Course 73.7 bogey 97.6 slope 129

bearing in mind my hcp is calculated off index x (slope/113) I could have a scenario where I’m getting 1 less shot on the harder course. Fine detailed margin I know.

I’m an 18 hcp at present and on a steady day on both courses I’m hitting at least 4 less shots on the easy course which is reflected in the course rating but not the slope it’s calculated off.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Off Whites.
Easy course. Par 71 course 69.4 bogey 93.9 slope actually 132
harder course (I’m a member of). par 72. Course 73.7 bogey 97.6 slope 129

bearing in mind my hcp is calculated off index x (slope/113) I could have a scenario where I’m getting 1 less shot on the harder course. Fine detailed margin I know.

I’m an 18 hcp at present and on a steady day on both courses I’m hitting at least 4 less shots on the easy course which is reflected in the course rating but not the slope it’s calculated off.
		
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It is reflected in.the CR,  which is what your score is measured against to determine whether you played better or worse than your handicap suggests. If England golf had just gone with including CR in.the calculation we wouldn't be having these misunderstandings.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Off Whites.
Easy course. Par 71 course 69.4 bogey 93.9 slope actually 132
harder course (I’m a member of). par 72. Course 73.7 bogey 97.6 slope 129

bearing in mind my hcp is calculated off index x (slope/113) I could have a scenario where I’m getting 1 less shot on the harder course. Fine detailed margin I know.

I’m an 18 hcp at present and on a steady day on both courses I’m hitting at least 4 less shots on the easy course which is reflected in the course rating but not the slope it’s calculated off.
		
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Okay, but to "break even"/"match the course" you'll need a net 69 on the first and a net 74 in the second.


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			It is reflected in.the CR,  which is what your score is measured against to determine whether you played better or worse than your handicap suggests. If England golf had just gone with including CR in.the calculation we wouldn't be having these misunderstandings.
		
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Ever the opportunity to make things complicated


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Ever the opportunity to make things complicated
		
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Though,  in this respect WHS, as implemented in England is no different to CONGU.


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

IainP said:



			Okay, but to "break even"/"match the course" you'll need a net 69 on the first and a net 74 in the second.
		
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Sorry just trying to get the logic right here in my head.

For both. Slope determines my hcp. easy course I’d could be 17 but the course of 71 has a cr of 69 so I’m expected to hit 86, 15 over the par of the course. On the harder course of 72 that has a cr of 74 I could have a handicap of 16 based on a lower slope but I’m expected to hit a 90 which is 18 over the par of the course?


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Though,  in this respect WHS, as implemented in England is no different to CONGU.
		
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Yep I agree with that but I thought the whole point of bringing in slope was to balance hcps across courses of differing difficulty.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Sorry just trying to get the logic right here in my head.

For both. Slope determines my hcp. easy course I’d could be 17 but the course of 71 has a cr of 69 so I’m expected to hit 86, 15 over the par of the course. On the harder course of 72 that has a cr of 74 I could have a handicap of 16 based on a lower slope but I’m expected to hit a 90 which is 18 over the par of the course?
		
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Yeah. Remember on the existing system you were playing against SSS or CSS, not par.
You guess of 4 shots difference looks good!


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

IainP said:



			Yeah. Remember on the existing system you were playing against SSS or CSS, not par.
You guess of 4 shots difference looks good!
		
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Yeah the sss vs css I’ve always got. I’ve deleted most of this reply as something is clicking as his hcp has actually go up. I think I need to see his index breakdown to figure it out. Thanks for the feedback though.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Yep I agree with that but I thought the whole point of bringing in slope was to balance hcps across courses of differing difficulty.
		
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The HI achieves that aim. My guess is that England Golf felt that including the CR in the CH calculation was one change to many.  I like you disagree,  that doesn't though mean that the actions they took did not mean their stated aim.


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			The HI achieves that aim. My guess is that England Golf felt that including the CR in the CH calculation was one change to many.  I like you disagree,  that doesn't though mean that the actions they took did not mean their stated aim.
		
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finally got my head around it! it actually makes sense now too. I finally found a really interesting article and applying the below And using a 19 over score for each course I’m 4.5 strokes worse off on my hcp on the easier course Which means when my mate comes from his easier course to my harder course, the scores he entered on his easier course will be reflected in his HI.


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## brickie (Oct 31, 2020)

So, just received an e-mail from my club saying that we will not be implementing WHS handicap index on Monday.
apparently more than 35% of members have a significantly lower index than expected.
C&H are, it seems, asking England golf to sharpen their pencil and have another look at the data supplied.
watch this space


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2020)

brickie said:



			So, just received an e-mail from my club saying that we will not be implementing WHS handicap index on Monday.
apparently more than 35% of members have a significantly lower index than expected.
C&H are, it seems, asking England golf to sharpen their pencil and have another look at the data supplied.
watch this space
		
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Be interesting to know what system you will use as CONGU will be shut down


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## brickie (Oct 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to know what system you will use as CONGU will be shut down
		
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Home course will be non qualifying for next few months so no problem except of course if you want to play elsewhere.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2020)

brickie said:



			Home course will be non qualifying for next few months so no problem except of course if you want to play elsewhere.
		
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Surly if your playing non Qs it’s an ideal time to run the WHS and see how much difference it will make.


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			finally got my head around it! it actually makes sense now too. I finally found a really interesting article and applying the below And using a 19 over score for each course I’m 4.5 strokes worse off on my hcp on the easier course Which means when my mate comes from his easier course to my harder course, the scores he entered on his easier course will be reflected in his HI.
View attachment 33210

Click to expand...

The use of the word *Using* in the attachment above may be confusing

The Manual actually says:-

_Score Differential = (113/Slope Rating} x (adjusted gross score - Course Rating - PCC adjustment)_

_A Handicap Index is calculated from the average of the lowest 8 of the most recent Score Differentials. _


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## srixon 1 (Oct 31, 2020)

It was 3.2 last week. Had a shocker of a game in the torrential rain last weekend (10 over my handicap), checked again today and my index is now 3.0.  🤔


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			My guess is that England Golf felt that including the CR in the CH calculation was one change to many.
		
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Does that mean you are suggesting that England Golf is different to everywhere else?


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Yep I agree with that but I thought the whole point of bringing in slope was to balance hcps across courses of differing difficulty.
		
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No.
Course Rating indicates the relative difficulty of *courses*.
Slope indicates the relative difficulty of a *particular* course for *players* of different abilities


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## Jigger (Oct 31, 2020)

srixon 1 said:



			It was 3.2 last week. Had a shocker of a game in the torrential rain last weekend (10 over my handicap), checked again today and my index is now 3.0.  🤔
		
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Must’ve been better than your 8th best score


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Does that mean you are suggesting that England Golf is different to everywhere else?[/QUOTE
Not everywhere, no.  My understanding though is that most countries have have incorporated the CR into the calculation of CH,  could be wrong though but would still say that it makes more sense and is less confusing to include it.  This thread would seem to support that.
		
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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Whilst your expertise on all things rules and handicaps is very clear for all to see on here 👍, and I understand the Slope being the relative difficulty for a higher handicap v scratch player, it's still hard to argue with those saying that Slope indicates difficulty when all the tough courses have high Slope numbers.

Are there any  well known supposedly "difficult" courses that have a low Slope to disprove that?
		
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I don'y know of any but haven't looked.
But it seems very likely that 'tough' courses will be relatively even 'tougher' for higher handicappers.

However I have just looked at my course and the CR for whites and yellows differs by 2.2 but the BR differs by 3.7. 
That is undoubtedly largely due length in this case. I would guess that low slopes would generally mean lots of trouble for long hitters and no bunkers or water in range for shorter hitters


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Not everywhere, no. My understanding though is that most countries have have incorporated the CR into the calculation of CH, could be wrong though but would still say that it makes more sense and is less confusing to include it. This thread would seem to support that.
		
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Are you thinking of the extra step of (CR-Par) rather than CR alone.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Whilst your expertise on all things rules and handicaps is very clear for all to see on here 👍, and I understand the Slope being the relative difficulty for a higher handicap v scratch player, it's still hard to argue with those saying that Slope indicates difficulty when all the tough courses have high Slope numbers.

Are there any  well known supposedly "difficult" courses that have a low Slope to disprove that?
		
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Obviously I'm no expert, but I used two real courses near me in the example below where the one with the lower slope is the one _I_ considered the more difficult 
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

IainP said:



			Obviously I'm no expert, but I used two real courses near me in the example below where the one with the lower slope is the one _I_ considered the more difficult
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251

Click to expand...

And you showed that because the Course Rating was higher (although the slope was lower) your perception was right *because they were different courses*


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## garyinderry (Oct 31, 2020)

Mines has gone from 6.0 to 6.5

Which is fair enough as I've been on the slide this last while. 

Seems things can change quickly as it was as low as 3.4 in March. 


Could be a good system once it's all up and running. 


I believe I will be off 6.2 yellows, 6.8 whites at my home club off my current index.


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## srixon 1 (Oct 31, 2020)

Jigger said:



			Must’ve been better than your 8th best score
		
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Never thought of that.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you thinking of the extra step of (CR-Par) rather than CR alone.
		
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Of course


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2020)

Sorry if it’s been quoted before, but what does the 95% I’ve seen mentioned for individual comps refer to?


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Sorry if it’s been quoted before, but what does the 95% I’ve seen mentioned for individual comps refer to?
		
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I think you may mean how to derive a playing handicap from a course handicap for an individual type of play.
Down here think it only makes a difference for course handicaps of 11 & up


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Sorry if it’s been quoted before, but what does the 95% I’ve seen mentioned for individual comps refer to?
		
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It relates to the adjustment you make to your Course Handicap (ie the one you get off the chart/board) when you play an individual medal. ie 95% of your Course Handicap.

In the same way as now when each player gets 90% in a Fourball stableford.


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## Ragamuffin Gunner (Oct 31, 2020)

15.4 from 15.9

Ok with me.


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## brickie (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It relates to the adjustment you make to your Course Handicap (ie the one you get off the chart/board) when you play an individual medal. ie 95% of your Course Handicap.

In the same way as now when each player gets 90% in a Fourball stableford.
		
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except that a fourball stableford will now be 85% for each player


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It relates to the adjustment you make to your Course Handicap (ie the one you get off the chart/board) when you play an individual medal. ie 95% of your Course Handicap.

In the same way as now when each player gets 90% in a Fourball stableford.
		
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So we now have an index, a course handicap *and* a playing handicap?
Christ, imagine if they tried to make it complicated 😱


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## IanM (Nov 1, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So we now have an index, a course handicap *and* a playing handicap?
Christ, imagine if they tried to make it complicated 😱
		
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. 😀

I think we’ll get used to it....eventually.   I’ve got the page saved on my phone so handy access to my Handicap Index, if clubs get their handicap tables on their website, you can ”do all the maths” before you travel. 

Maybe this thread should ask.... are you getting more, fewer or same shots in a medal on your home course??

My WHS HI is 0.9 lower than CONGU handicap, but after you divide by this and multiply by that, off the white tees at home club.... same shots!


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## fenwayrich (Nov 1, 2020)

One good (albeit unimportant) thing that might come out of lockdown is a month without acceptable scores is also a month to correct what appears to be a myriad of errors in the existing ones. We can but hope.


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## IainP (Nov 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			. 😀

I think we’ll get used to it....eventually.   I’ve got the page saved on my phone so handy access to my Handicap Index, if clubs get their handicap tables on their website, you can ”do all the maths” before you travel. 
*
Maybe this thread should ask.... are you getting more, fewer or same shots in a medal on your home course*??
		
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Agree, see https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/quick-poll-on-your-new-handicap-index.107005/post-2250651

But then the article has been done now so it's run it's course
https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news...onthly-forum-reacts-to-new-whs-indexes-210053


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## jim8flog (Nov 1, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So we now have an index, a course handicap *and* a playing handicap?
Christ, imagine if they tried to make it complicated 😱
		
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 and of course if you are playing a match the method of getting shots changes between single match and four ball match


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## Dannyc (Nov 1, 2020)

5.4 to 4.4  

Worst I’ve seen is the lads who don’t play many comps they seem to have gone up quite a bit 
Lad named mark plays of 6 plays 3 comps a year has gone up to 12 and I’ve got play him in winter league next week 😂🙈


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## Junior (Nov 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			When did you last play under the new system?
		
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Obviously I've never have.  I know plenty who do in the USA though.  

I just think its overly complicated, definitely far more complicated than the current system.  I get the reasons for it , it's just my opinion.  Of course It'll become the new norm and the world will keep turning.  

One observation though is the indexes of players who's calculation is based on fewer rounds.  (Ie not the average of best 8 from 20).   I know a few who now have indexes quite a few shots higher than their current handicap.


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## USER1999 (Nov 1, 2020)

I think that 4bbb comps have got more complicated. May be need to enter both scores, and also which one counts. Could be wrong, but for me, I will be chucking my card in the box, and someone else can sort it out.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 1, 2020)

Dannyc said:



			5.4 to 4.4 

Worst I’ve seen is the lads who don’t play many comps they seem to have gone up quite a bit
Lad named mark plays of 6 plays 3 comps a year has gone up to 12 and I’ve got play him in winter league next week 😂🙈
		
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Don’t think you will be playing anyone next week.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 1, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			One good (albeit unimportant) thing that might come out of lockdown is a month without acceptable scores is also a month to correct what appears to be a myriad of errors in the existing ones. We can but hope.
		
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We actually postponed comps for 2 weeks before and after the launch in anticipation of it being a balls up to give us time to fix things!!!


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## jim8flog (Nov 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I think that 4bbb comps have got more complicated. May be need to enter both scores, and also which one counts. Could be wrong, but for me, I will be chucking my card in the box, and someone else can sort it out.
		
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 Ever since we went to entering cards on a computer having both scores on the cards was far easier to input that just the the counting one.


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## JamesR (Nov 2, 2020)

IanM said:



			. 😀

I think we’ll get used to it....eventually.   I’ve got the page saved on my phone so handy access to my Handicap Index, if clubs get their handicap tables on their website, you can ”do all the maths” before you travel.

Maybe this thread should ask.... are you getting more, fewer or same shots in a medal on your home course??

My WHS HI is 0.9 lower than CONGU handicap, but after you divide by this and multiply by that, off the white tees at home club.... same shots!
		
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Have I got this right?

My congu handicap was 4.1, following a poor end to the season.
My index is 2.5, as there are a couple of decent scores at the beginning of the 20 rounds.
My course handicap (based on the whites at my home course) is 2.5 x 127/113 = 2.8 = 3
My playing handicap is 3 x 95% = 2.85 = 3


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 2, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Have I got this right?

My congu handicap was 4.1, following a poor end to the season.
My index is 2.5, as there are a couple of decent scores at the beginning of the 20 rounds.
My course handicap (based on the whites at my home course) is 2.5 x 127/113 = 2.8 = 3
My playing handicap is 3 x 95% = 2.85 = 3
		
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Where’s Carol Vorderman when you need her.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

If that's what the tables say, yes...no need for calculator. 

And from what you said, assume no big upheaval


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## Tashyboy (Nov 2, 2020)

Now I fully understand the new Hcap system 🤔 could someone tell me whether it has actually gone up or down, or stayed the same.

under the old system 😉 i was 16.7 so 17 at my course. Under the new system which started 10 hrs ago. My WHS is 15.2 which has gone down,but at my course where I play 99.9% of me golf that equates to 18. So has it gone down or up.


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## JamesR (Nov 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Now I fully understand the new Hcap system 🤔 could someone tell me whether it has actually gone up or down, or stayed the same.

under the old system 😉 i was 16.7 so 17 at my course. Under the new system which started 10 hrs ago. My WHS is 15.2 which has gone down,but at my course where I play 99.9% of me golf that equates to 18. *So has it gone down or up*.
		
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Yes


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Now I fully understand the new Hcap system 🤔 could someone tell me whether it has actually gone up or down, or stayed the same.

under the old system 😉 i was 16.7 so 17 at my course. Under the new system which started 10 hrs ago. My WHS is 15.2 which has gone down,but at my course where I play 99.9% of me golf that equates to 18. So has it gone down or up.
		
Click to expand...

I think that is a great question, HI is the number you'll quote when someone asks, and that has gone down!!   *So, it feels like a cut!! *    On some courses it will be a cut, on others it wont! 

That's the main change to absorb.  The rest is calculus for folk with too much time on their hands!  n


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 2, 2020)

Lol. I hope no one is playing a comp today and using the new handicap. My handicap have jumped up from 5.0 to 6.6 this morning despite the only new entry is a gross 73, and looking at it, the only scores that have been taken into account is for scores from 2019.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2020)

I checked in this morning and my HI has dropped by 0.3 since the original figure. I'm still in the same category at my course but at this rate, without hitting a ball, I might be single figures by December


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

There's a bloke on one the Facebook Pages who has gone from around scratch to +3, and he isnt sure how or why!  I said "serves you right mate!"


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## HampshireHog (Nov 2, 2020)

I’ve gone from 9.0 CONGU exact to 8.1 HI, still off 9 on my course so nothing to see here.  Also bang on where I thought it would be.

What I would say is that I have had an exceptional year and would have reached HI 8.1 in July where as I only got to 9 Handicap last weekend.  I’m still trying to work out whether this is a good thing or not but I think it probably is.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Now I fully understand the new Hcap system 🤔 could someone tell me whether it has actually gone up or down, or stayed the same.

under the old system 😉 i was 16.7 so 17 at my course. Under the new system which started 10 hrs ago. My WHS is 15.2 which has gone down,but at my course where I play 99.9% of me golf that equates to 18. So has it gone down or up.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t know ?
I am crap at maths.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Nov 9, 2020)

The day we come out of lockdown and finally Wales Golf have fixed the gremlins and our handicap indexes are correct. Mine had originally gone up 4.6 but is now 0.4 down. My course playing handicap will effectively be exactly the same from the white tees.


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## YorkshireStu (Nov 9, 2020)

Down from 26.4 to 24.8. It makes sense when I compare my handicap index to the shots I would get on some of my local courses e.g. 28 at Waterton Park and 25 at Barnsley feels about right. 

As a nomad, I think I am able to see the benefits of the new system a little clearer than some who play a single course more often than not.


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## slowhand (Nov 10, 2020)

Has gone down by the equivalent of 5 shots (22.2 handicap to 14.0 handicap index, as England Golf have ignored all my recent cards, and only used 2 scores from over a year ago, which were on a much easier course than my current one


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## rulefan (Nov 10, 2020)

YorkshireStu said:



			Down from 26.4 to 24.8. It makes sense when I compare my handicap index to the shots I would get on some of my local courses e.g. 28 at Waterton Park and 25 at Barnsley feels about right.

As a nomad, I think I am able to see the benefits of the new system a little clearer than some who play a single course more often than not.
		
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It would seem that you are member of at least one club though


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## jim8flog (Nov 10, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Now I fully understand the new Hcap system 🤔 could someone tell me whether it has actually gone up or down, or stayed the same.

under the old system 😉 i was 16.7 so 17 at my course. Under the new system which started 10 hrs ago. My WHS is 15.2 which has gone down,but at my course where I play 99.9% of me golf that equates to 18. So has it gone down or up.
		
Click to expand...

 It's all relative.  If everybody in your handicap bracket at your club has gone up by the same amount you still only have the same chance of winning. 

One of the important factors in deciding if you are better or worse of is 'was the change to Course Rating much of a change compared to SSS?'.


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## rulefan (Nov 10, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It's all relative.  If everybody in your handicap bracket at your club has gone up by the same amount you still only have the same chance of winning.

One of the important factors in deciding if you are better or worse of is 'was the change to Course Rating much of a change compared to SSS?'.
		
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If your course was rated recently the SSS would be the same as the CR rounded.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

I can honestly answer this now.

My index originally came back wrong due to our courses slope not being used for scores from July when we fully opened the back 9

Anyways it's now 25.2 

I only have 7 cards in tho so need to work on that ..

I was 25.4 under congu .. one away from 26 so in friendlies at mine 26 yellow 27 whites 

Comp 25 and 26 
So not much change 

Only thing that's weird going to another course my handicap off yellows is 29 when that course is easier compared to ours .. I've played off 25 at that course and scored 38 points ...


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## rulefan (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I can honestly answer this now.

My index originally came back wrong due to our courses slope not being used for scores from July when we fully opened the back 9

Anyways it's now 25.2

I only have 7 cards in tho so need to work on that ..

I was 25.4 under congu .. one away from 26 so in friendlies at mine 26 yellow 27 whites

Comp 25 and 26
So not much change

Only thing that's weird going to another course my handicap off yellows is 29 when that course is easier compared to ours .. I've played off 25 at that course and scored 38 points ...
		
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What do you mean by 'easier'? Is it the rating(s) or just your subjective view?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What do you mean by 'easier'? Is it the rating(s) or just your subjective view?
		
Click to expand...

The view of every person I know who's played both courses ,

Our course is links style with lots of gorse bushes so if you go offline it's very easy to lose a ball. Happens even of you think you have found the fairway

Where as the two other examples I've looked at (panshanger and Brentwood) are much easier to navigate courses

The view of everybody who's played our course is that of surprise that the slope is only 121 white and 117 yellow

The sss of the course is 74 for a par 72 so surely makes it harder would you not say?

The course rating white is 74.2 and yellow is 71.8

Brentwood is white 72.4 yellow 69.4

Panshanger is white 70.5 yellow 69.6

Now I know in the UK we don't use course ratings but surely if they are rated easier than they are easier courses

There for ours rated at 74.2 and 71.8 (all pars 72 for point of reference) is harder than a course rated lower?

Few other examples about aswell

However I've been told on here slope isn't the rating of difficulty which is fair enough but if that's the case why is the only thing used to decide what my playing handicap is that day?


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## sunshine (Nov 16, 2020)

YorkshireStu said:



			Down from 26.4 to 24.8. It makes sense when I compare my handicap index to the shots I would get on some of my local courses e.g. 28 at Waterton Park and 25 at Barnsley feels about right.

As a nomad, I think I am able to see the benefits of the new system a little clearer than some who play a single course more often than not.
		
Click to expand...

How do you have a handicap index if you are a nomad?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

sunshine said:



			How do you have a handicap index if you are a nomad?
		
Click to expand...

You can work that out using a shot tracker which tbh I think will be more accurate than a club one as it's all their cards added in


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## YorkshireStu (Nov 16, 2020)

sunshine said:



			How do you have a handicap index if you are a nomad?
		
Click to expand...

Simply, I don't have an official handicap.

At work, we have a handicap spreadsheet with all the formulas in which has been changed over from CONGU to WHS. It allows us to keep an unofficial (but accurate) handicap for corporates and I use it to track all my personal rounds too.

Every round gets carded and there's no handicap egos or bandits in our group thankfully.

As we often play at difference courses, the benefits are more obvious to see with WHS, having more/less shots at differing courses.

I have a friend who plays in a society who do the same thing for WHS using this link 
https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html


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## sunshine (Nov 16, 2020)

YorkshireStu said:



			Simply, I don't have an official handicap.

At work, we have a handicap spreadsheet with all the formulas in which has been changed over from CONGU to WHS. It allows us to keep an unofficial (but accurate) handicap for corporates and I use it to track all my personal rounds too.

Every round gets carded and there's no handicap egos or bandits in our group thankfully.

As we often play at difference courses, the benefits are more obvious to see with WHS, having more/less shots at differing courses.

I have a friend who plays in a society who do the same thing for WHS using this link
https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

Sounds good 

That spreadsheet must get quite complicated though. Especially if people have played different numbers of rounds and some have less than 20 scores.


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## DanFST (Nov 16, 2020)

Still haven't got mine!


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The view of every person I know who's played both courses ,

Our course is links style with lots of gorse bushes so if you go offline it's very easy to lose a ball. Happens even of you think you have found the fairway

Where as the two other examples I've looked at (panshanger and Brentwood) are much easier to navigate courses

The view of everybody who's played our course is that of surprise that the slope is only 121 white and 117 yellow

The sss of the course is 74 for a par 72 so surely makes it harder would you not say?

The course rating white is 74.2 and yellow is 71.8

Brentwood is white 72.4 yellow 69.4

Panshanger is white 70.5 yellow 69.6

Now I know in the UK we don't use course ratings but surely if they are rated easier than they are easier courses

There for ours rated at 74.2 and 71.8 (all pars 72 for point of reference) is harder than a course rated lower?

Few other examples about aswell

However I've been told on here slope isn't the rating of difficulty which is fair enough but if that's the case why is the only thing used to decide what my playing handicap is that day?
		
Click to expand...

But too much there to follow, I think rulefans question was partly more along the lines of:

What is the CR for:
"friendlies at mine 26 yellow"

What is the CR for:
"Only thing that's weird going to another course my handicap off yellows is 29"

I may be wrong though 😉


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			But too much there to follow, I think rulefans question was partly more along the lines of:

What is the CR for:
"friendlies at mine 26 yellow"

What is the CR for:
"Only thing that's weird going to another course my handicap off yellows is 29"

I may be wrong though 😉
		
Click to expand...

But course rating if that is CR means nothing in the UK ?


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			But course rating if that is CR means nothing in the UK ?
		
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Yes meant course rating. Not sure why you say it "means nothing"
See if this is any use
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251


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## rulefan (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			But course rating if that is CR means nothing in the UK ?
		
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Why do you say that?
It is used when calculating your Score Differential and ultimately your Handicap Index.


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## jim8flog (Nov 16, 2020)

YorkshireStu said:



			.

I have a friend who plays in a society who do the same thing for WHS using this link
https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

Does he realise that this calculator is an American based one not a UK based one


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why do you say that?
It is used when calculating your Score Differential and ultimately your Handicap Index.
		
Click to expand...

But has nothing to do with my handicap at a course in question that day? That's what I'm saying.

Look at the 3 examples I replied to u. My course is rated 74.2 but I get a lower handicap there than playing a course that's rated 70.5 

I don't understand how that works ..... My course is 2 shots harder than par where as the other is 1.5 shots easier than par?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			Yes meant course rating. Not sure why you say it "means nothing"
See if this is any use
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251

Click to expand...

Thanks , that does make kind of sense but at the same time adds another layer of confusion to the new system ..

All people want to know is their handicap .. and I feel like I've improved no end ... Yet I'll go to a course I've played for years played off lower there and scored 38 points a few times but now I get more shots even with a lower handicap at a harder course ......


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Thanks , that does make kind of sense but at the same time adds another layer of confusion to the new system ..

All people want to know is their handicap .. and I feel like I've improved no end ... Yet I'll go to a course I've played for years played off lower there and scored 38 points a few times but now I get more shots even with a lower handicap at a harder course ......
		
Click to expand...


You've summed it up well. "All  people want to know is their handicap". I'm the same. I don't really want to think, "what am I playing off at course x, y or z?"
You could boast that you got 40 points at course x, 36 at course y, 38 at course z, but it doesn't mean a lot when you have to explain to the (bored) listener, that you were off (say) 22, 24, and 26, at three different courses.
All we've done is make the whole system more (needlessly) complicated.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			You've summed it up well. "All  people want to know is their handicap". I'm the same. I don't really want to think, "what am I playing off at course x, y or z?"
You could boast that you got 40 points at course x, 36 at course y, 38 at course z, but it doesn't mean a lot when you have to explain to the (bored) listener, that you were off (say) 22, 24, and 26, at three different courses.
All we've done is make the whole system more (needlessly) complicated.
		
Click to expand...

I was all for WHS at first but now it's here it seems so complex yes I could not look at it and just play 

But to know I'll get more shots here and less there 

All I know Is playing panshanger off that index I'll hit 36 plus points more often than at my own club infact I'd say I'd do it almost every time


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I was all for WHS at first but now it's here it seems so complex yes I could not look at it and just play

But to know I'll get more shots here and less there

All I know Is playing panshanger off that index I'll hit 36 plus points more often than at my own club infact I'd say I'd do it almost every time
		
Click to expand...

Okay so forget WHS for a moment. In old money Panshanger was par 72, SSS 70. So 38 points would be "level" (no cut), 36 would be buffer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			Okay so forget WHS for a moment. In old money Panshanger was par 72, SSS 70. So 38 points would be "level" (no cut), 36 would be buffer.
		
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It just seems backwards that you get more shots on easier courses when the way whs was explained was to make the game simplier and more enjoyable so everyone has a chance ie when you go to a tougher course you get more shots ?


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## rulefan (Nov 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I was all for WHS at first but now it's here it seems so complex yes I could not look at it and just play

But to know I'll get more shots here and less there

All I know Is playing panshanger off that index I'll hit 36 plus points more often than at my own club infact I'd say I'd do it almost every time
		
Click to expand...

Remember, par tells you nothing about difficulty.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Remember, par tells you nothing about difficulty.
		
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I guess so however everything from a basic understanding of your average golfer is 36 points Is par

It seems that making it so more people can hit course rating ie 38 points seems backwards

Surely to make it so you shoot 36 more would make it simpler for those who don't want details?


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## DanFST (Nov 16, 2020)

I'm not sure why it's so difficult. 

1) Arrive at club. 
2) Look at Huge poster to determine how many shots you get, at every golf course in the world. 
3) Angrily walk around for 4 hours as you get no way near handicap.


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I guess so however everything from a basic understanding of your average golfer is 36 points Is par

It seems that making it so more people can hit course rating ie 38 points seems backwards

Surely to make it so you shoot 36 more would make it simpler for those who don't want details?
		
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It is only 36 points if the par is 72. I agree that probably the majority of courses are par 72 but a large proportion are not. Of the five tees at my club, none are par 72. I guess that there are very few courses where all the tees are par 72. I have just taken 10 at random and there are none. In fact the first 5 I picked had no par 72 tees.


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## Canary Kid (Nov 17, 2020)

Mine went up 3.8.  I was told that the calculation only uses scores from 2018 onwards and so some good rounds fell off the back.  Think I may be a bandit for a while.  The England Golf website also gives my ranking in Warwickshire, except I’m in West Sussex.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is only 36 points if the par is 72. I agree that probably the majority of courses are par 72 but a large proportion are not. Of the five tees at my club, none are par 72. I guess that there are very few courses where all the tees are par 72. I have just taken 10 at random and there are none. In fact the first 5 I picked had no par 72 tees.
		
Click to expand...

The 3 examples I found were all par 72s but SSS or Cr now varied from 70-74 are their pars 36 still or based on the cr?


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The 3 examples I found were all par 72s but SSS or Cr now varied from 70-74 are their pars 36 still or based on the cr?
		
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Are all tees on those courses par 72?

Par is based *solely* on the length of each individual hole
For men
Par 3 < 261 yards
Par 4 240 - 490
Par 5 450 - 710
Par 6 > 669
The sum of the hole pars is the course par.

So 18 x 300 yards holes is par 72 and 18 x 420 yards holes is par 72

Length is only one element of the Course Rating.
The CR of the first would be about 64 and the second about 75 depending on the obstacles on the course


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are all tees on those courses par 72?

Par is based *solely* on the length of each individual hole
For men
Par 3 < 261 yards
Par 4 240 - 490
Par 5 450 - 710
Par 6 > 669
The sum of the hole pars is the course par.

So 18 x 300 yards holes is par 72 and 18 x 420 yards holes is par 72

Length is only one element of the Course Rating.
The CR of the first would be about 64 and the second about 75 depending on the obstacles on the course
		
Click to expand...

Keeping it completely simple.

If I play off the whites and the par of the course is 72 but rated as 74.2 is par 36 points or 34 points as per the example given by Iain yesterday? Ie par was 72 but old money sss was 74


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Keeping it completely simple.

If I play off the whites and the par of the course is 72 but rated as 74.2 is par 36 points or 34 points as per the example given by Iain yesterday? Ie par was 72 but old money sss was 74
		
Click to expand...

The par of the course is still 72 

For handicap purposes to play to “handicap” you would need to play to the CR ( SSS ) - so in old money 74 net or 34 points would mean playing to your handicap 

Playing to 36 points would mean playing better than your handicap


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## MarkT (Nov 17, 2020)

Apologies if we’ve had this - new WHS app out today, fingers crossed it works


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## The Fader (Nov 17, 2020)

At the end of the day - it is what it is.

You just need to appreciate and understand that your old CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to your new Handicap Index. They are based on a completely different set of criteria and calculations.

To me, the new HI is a more reflective indicator of your current playing ability which is a good thing. No system will ever be perfect but whilst I'm sure WHS will continue to throw up more than a few anomalys it's underlying principals are sound.  It may be a complex calculation but that reflects the complexity of golf - However for those who don't want to be bothered with the minutiae of the system 

As DanFST said earlier -

1) Arrive at club.
2) Look at Huge poster to determine how many shots you get, at every golf course in the world. 

Simples!!


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## Orikoru (Nov 17, 2020)

MarkT said:



			Apologies if we’ve had this - new WHS app out today, fingers crossed it works
		
Click to expand...

It was actually released over a week ago, but to limited numbers I think, they must be rolling it properly now. It's actually pretty good, you only need to put your CDH in once when you first use it, then you can open it up and see your handicap record with all your rounds on there - plus you can search for a golf course and it tells you how many shots you'll get there! Very handy.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The par of the course is still 72

For handicap purposes to play to “handicap” you would need to play to the CR ( SSS ) - so in old money 74 net or 34 points would mean playing to your handicap

Playing to 36 points would mean playing better than your handicap
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Phil. That's how I have taken what was said yesterday and where the confusion has arrises 

I think it's because I'm an ex society and social golfer where par is only 36. That's it. You don't pay attention to SSS or Cr etc 

So now at club level it's very confusing that you wouldn't see 36 as shot level . I know realise level at My course off whites is 34 it seems


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Thank you Phil. That's how I have taken what was said yesterday and where the confusion has arrises

I think it's because I'm an ex society and social golfer where par is only 36. That's it. You don't pay attention to SSS or Cr etc

So now at club level it's very confusing that you wouldn't see 36 as shot level . I know realise level at My course off whites is 34 it seems
		
Click to expand...

There has always been confusion where the par is not equal to the SSS (under CONGU). 
The problem is that players insist on relating their performance to par. It actually tells the player nothing. He would expect to take more strokes on a long par 72 than on a short par 72. 

The true measure of performance is to subtract your Course Handicap from your gross shots and compare it with your Course Handicap. *The difference is how well you played.*


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There has always been confusion where the par is not equal to the SSS (under CONGU).
The problem is that players insist on relating their performance to par. It actually tells the player nothing. He would expect to take more strokes on a long par 72 than on a short par 72.

The true measure of performance is to subtract your Course Handicap from your gross shots and compare it with your Course Handicap. *The difference is how well you played.*

Click to expand...

I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are


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## Radbourne2010 (Nov 17, 2020)

MarkT said:



			To help with an online piece for the website can you let us know how your handicap has been affected with the new index and provide as much info and background as possible in the comments below. Much obliged..
		
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CONGU handicap 4.0
Indicative WHS Index 3.0
White tee slope on Wandlebury Course at Gog Magog is 136 & Old Course only 118. It appears the majority of my 8 counting rounds were played on the Wandlebury course.


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## sunshine (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are
		
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To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me. 

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me.

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.
		
Click to expand...

Going to confuse My casual golf friends aswell ..

Once a year I play with 2 guys from work .. so I'll be right lads last time I played off 25 hit 36 points and everyone thought that's good 

Turns out this course I need to play off 29 because level isn't 36 it's 39. 

Their gonna be A confused and B think im pulling a fast one 

"Bandit"


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are
		
Click to expand...

Thank you again pauljames87. "it seems very complex". I was laughed at on this very forum for insinuating that WHS seemed complex. I think one poster suggested I couldn't do primary school mathematics. Seems I'm not the only one round here finding it UNNECESSARILY complicated.
You and I sing on the same hymn sheet pauljames87.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Thank you again pauljames87. "it seems very complex". I was laughed at on this very forum for insinuating that WHS seemed complex. I think one poster suggested I couldn't do primary school mathematics. Seems I'm not the only one round here finding it UNNECESSARILY complicated.
You and I sing on the same hymn sheet pauljames87.
		
Click to expand...

The thing is I've been a massive fan of whs the idea of it. Listened to podcasts about it (Rick shiels) all kinds of stuff and I'm like yeah I like this is for me 

Explained to my mate he said it's rubbish. Makes things more complex etc etc 

I defended it and then when it rolled out it's been a massive cluster ... Of wrong indexes.. not updating ... Etc etc (appreciate it's a lot of work but why the rush to do by November covid could have delayed it naturally)

Now when I'm talking to him about it he's like I told you so.. and I'm eating humble pie that ffs this is a head scratcher


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

Radbourne2010 said:



			CONGU handicap 4.0
Indicative WHS Index 3.0
White tee slope on Wandlebury Course at Gog Magog is 136 & Old Course only 118. It appears the majority of my 8 counting rounds were played on the Wandlebury course.
		
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Slope doesn't mean much without the Course Rating.


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## Vikingman (Nov 17, 2020)

As my handicap index is currently being calculated from the wrong tees at the wrong slopes I'll wait till its sorted before commenting.


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## Scott W (Nov 17, 2020)

Ok so with the help of my old club I have managed to get missing rounds added and tees corrected but I have question for the guru's...is this how transition should have worked?

One of my missing rounds was a stableford from March this year (just before lockdown) where I blobbed a couple of holes including #6 which is SI2 par 4

On the day my CONGU handicap was 17.9 playing 18 so for H'cap that blob it was recorded as net double so a 7

When the round is added the WHS system takes my HI of 17.6 based on rounds to that point, adjusts for course and tees and gave me a playing h'cap of 21 so my blob becomes an 8 (net double on SI 2 with 2 strokes)

Feels like an anomaly but TBH I am exhausted with the back and forth

As someone who is bothered enough to be on forums, reading about it etc I wonder how "Wrong" so many handicaps are of folks who simply haven't checked - from my group of a dozen or so regular PP I know at least half had problems


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me.

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.
		
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The Course Handicap (ie strokes received) is Handicap Index x (Slope/113). Where does par come in to it? 

The difficulty for an individual player depends on the Course Rating and the difference between the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating. The old CONGU SSS was only scratch based. USGA CR is not.


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## sunshine (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The Course Handicap (ie strokes received) is Handicap Index x (Slope/113). *Where does par come in to it?*

The difficulty for an individual player depends on the Course Rating and the difference between the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating. The old CONGU SSS was only scratch based. USGA CR is not.
		
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You're such an advocate of the WHS that you appear miss to the obvious here.

People measure their scores against par. It's a fundamental scoring aspect of golf. Eagle, birdie, bogey... they are all scores relative to par. What did Dustin Johnson score at the Masters? 20 under par. No normal person would say 268. If I ask a friend what they scored at the weekend, they would say "4 over", and they are talking about par not CR or SSS or CSS.

The logical handicap process is that players should get more shots on harder courses, not fewer. When I first heard about the WHS I thought it would work something like this:

Course A: par 72, CR 72. Let's say this is your home course, you play off 10. You shoot 82 - 10 = nett level par
Course B: par 72, CR 74. A tougher course, the 10 handicapper above should get a couple more shots, so you shoot 84 - 12 = nett level par.
Course C: par 72, CR 70. An easier course, the 10 handicapper should get fewer shots, You shoot 80 - 8 = nett level par.

It's a simplistic example and I expected the slope to add moderate the crude CR calculation for different abilities.


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## rulefan (Nov 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			You're such an advocate of the WHS that you appear miss to the obvious here.

People measure their scores against par. It's a fundamental scoring aspect of golf. Eagle, birdie, bogey... they are all scores relative to par. What did Dustin Johnson score at the Masters? 20 under par. No normal person would say 268. If I ask a friend what they scored at the weekend, they would say "4 over", and they are talking about par not CR or SSS or CSS.

The logical handicap process is that players should get more shots on harder courses, not fewer. When I first heard about the WHS I thought it would work something like this:

Course A: par 72, CR 72. Let's say this is your home course, you play off 10. You shoot 82 - 10 = nett level par
Course B: par 72, CR 74. A tougher course, the 10 handicapper above should get a couple more shots, so you shoot 84 - 12 = nett level par.
Course C: par 72, CR 70. An easier course, the 10 handicapper should get fewer shots, You shoot 80 - 8 = nett level par.

It's a simplistic example and I expected the slope to add moderate the crude CR calculation for different abilities.
		
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As the pros don't play handicap competitions it make life simpler for punters to keep track of the relative positions of players. It doesn't say how well they are playing in absolute terms. If all the tees were moved forward to the par length limit and then moved backwards to the par length limit. The round scores would be very different but for one player wouldn't mean a lot. Johnson might have been 35 under instead of 20 but what would it tell you other than the course was easier?

As an aside, since having an issue with a player whose stableford card I was marking, I can't remember ever having totalled points on a card. Stableford or medal, I record hole strokes and running gross. No maths, no hassle.

Incidentally, I have done more searching and find that a substantial majority of tees are not par 72


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			You're such an advocate of the WHS that you appear miss to the obvious here.

People measure their scores against par. It's a fundamental scoring aspect of golf. Eagle, birdie, bogey... they are all scores relative to par. What did Dustin Johnson score at the Masters? 20 under par. No normal person would say 268. If I ask a friend what they scored at the weekend, they would say "4 over", and they are talking about par not CR or SSS or CSS.

The logical handicap process is that players should get more shots on harder courses, not fewer. When I first heard about the WHS I thought it would work something like this:

Course A: par 72, CR 72. Let's say this is your home course, you play off 10. You shoot 82 - 10 = nett level par
Course B: par 72, CR 74. A tougher course, the 10 handicapper above should get a couple more shots, so you shoot 84 - 12 = nett level par.
Course C: par 72, CR 70. An easier course, the 10 handicapper should get fewer shots, You shoot 80 - 8 = nett level par.

It's a simplistic example and I expected the slope to add moderate the crude CR calculation for different abilities.
		
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This is where I think the UK is wrong. I'm just going to say that's my opinion

Rest of world you need index , course rating. Slope and par to work out playing handicap 

So my course the example I gave I'd play off 29 off whites (27 is what they giving me) so I'd more likely shoot 36 not 34 that we have talked about 

The other example Brentwood I'd be off 26 which id more likely hit 36 than I would 38

Tbh this is how I thought the UK would do it

And it seems odd and backwards that we don't do it for a WORLD handicap system


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## sunshine (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As the pros don't play handicap competitions it make life simpler for punters to keep track of the relative positions of players. It doesn't say how well they are playing in absolute terms. If all the tees were moved forward to the par length limit and then moved backwards to the par length limit. The round scores would be very different but for one player wouldn't mean a lot. Johnson might have been 35 under instead of 20 but what would it tell you other than the course was easier?

As an aside, since having an issue with a player whose stableford card I was marking, I can't remember ever having totalled points on a card. Stableford or medal, I record hole strokes and running gross. No maths, no hassle.

Incidentally, I have done more searching and find that a substantial majority of tees are not par 72
		
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You make three points. I don't see how any of them are relevant to my post


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## jim8flog (Nov 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			When I first heard about the WHS I thought it would work something like this:

Course A: par 72, CR 72. Let's say this is your home course, you play off 10. You shoot 82 - 10 = nett level par
Course B: par 72, CR 74. A tougher course, the 10 handicapper above should get a couple more shots, so you shoot 84 - 12 = nett level par.
Course C: par 72, CR 70. An easier course, the 10 handicapper should get fewer shots, You shoot 80 - 8 = nett level par.

It's a simplistic example and I expected the slope to add moderate the crude CR calculation for different abilities.
		
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I agree to a very slight extent but then again I already knew about slope and it's principles and I assumed, correctly, that slope would decide what your handicap is on a given course.


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm not sure why it's so difficult.

1) Arrive at club.
2) Look at Huge poster to determine how many shots you get, at every golf course in the world.
3) Angrily walk around for 4 hours as you get no way near handicap.
		
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...until the nerds make playing to your handicap a slightly more mysterious concept that was meant to be!


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## Orikoru (Nov 18, 2020)

I really think to 90% of recreational golfers 'slope' is just a myth and if you asked them to explain it they wouldn't be able to. I know it's something like the relative difficulty of a course to an 18 handicapper vs a scratch player or something - but I just see it in layman's terms as a number for how hard the course is full stop. The numbers themselves just seem totally made up as well. _Why_ is the mid point 113? You couldn't get a more random number than that, why not use 100? That would make it easier on the eye and brain I think for a start. If you strip it all back it could definitely be vastly simpler.


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## IanM (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I really think to 90% of recreational golfers 'slope' is just a myth and if you asked them to explain it they wouldn't be able to. I know it's something like the relative difficulty of a course to an 18 handicapper vs a scratch player or something - but I just see it in layman's terms as a number for how hard the course is full stop. The numbers themselves just seem totally made up as well. _Why_ is the mid point 113? You couldn't get a more random number than that, why not use 100? That would make it easier on the eye and brain I think for a start. If you strip it all back it could definitely be vastly simpler.
		
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and the initial calculations/formulae should have been adjusted to remove the need to play off 95% in singles.    But I guess making it user friendly wasn't a consideration.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I really think to 90% of recreational golfers 'slope' is just a myth and if you asked them to explain it they wouldn't be able to. I know it's something like the relative difficulty of a course to an 18 handicapper vs a scratch player or something - but I just see it in layman's terms as a number for how hard the course is full stop. The numbers themselves just seem totally made up as well. _Why_ is the mid point 113? You couldn't get a more random number than that, why not use 100? That would make it easier on the eye and brain I think for a start. If you strip it all back it could definitely be vastly simpler.
		
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I just don't get why under a world handicap system we don't do it the same 

Yes we can take our index anywhere but we then have to work out their way to get a handicap for course not ours?


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## Orikoru (Nov 18, 2020)

IanM said:



*and the initial calculations/formulae should have been adjusted to remove the need to play off 95% in singles.    But I guess making it user friendly wasn't a consideration. *

But that's the difference ... for example, most golfers (hopefully all) know the penalty for going OB.  (even if some _"just put one down there"_ when playing recreationally) But less than 5% (Guess)  actually know the rule number, and subsections and chapter in the Decisions Book!      WHS was developed by folk who think you should know the chapter! 

But, I am glad about that.  Some of these people run Change in large organisations, I am paid well to come in and sort out the mess they make!
		
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Totally agree on the bold! I'm fully expecting about a third of the field to be disqualified from the first few comps in December as they've forgotten to do this. Me included! Whatever the chart says for how many shots you get, that should be how many shots you get. Not that times 0.95, it's stupid. Just make it easy for people.

Agree with your second point as well. The most annoying thing about this, and from all the rules experts, is that they act as if everyone should know all this stuff already.


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## Orikoru (Nov 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I just don't get why under a world handicap system we don't do it the same

Yes we can take our index anywhere but we then have to work out their way to get a handicap for course not ours?
		
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You've lost me there to be honest - are you saying the 'world' handicap system is not the same all over the world? Wasn't that the entire point of changing it?


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 18, 2020)

Sounds like pauljames87, IanM, and Orikoru are echoing my sentiments entirely. Yes, WHY was 113 used as a base figure? There hasn't been such a senseless decision since Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit worked out that water froze at 32degrees, and boiled at 212.
No doubt we will have Rulefan (and others) explaining what complete imbeciles we are.


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## jim8flog (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Totally agree on the bold! I'm fully expecting about a third of the field to be disqualified from the first few comps in December as they've forgotten to do this. Me included! Whatever the chart says for how many shots you get, that should be how many shots you get. Not that times 0.95, it's stupid. Just make it easy for people.

Agree with your second point as well. The most annoying thing about this, and from all the rules experts, is that they act as if everyone should know all this stuff already.
		
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It has been said many times on this forum

You cannot be disqualified for wrong or missing Playing Handicap (the figure after the 95% percent calculation).

The only thing that needs to be on card and be correct is the your Course Handicap (the figure from the charts).


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## Orikoru (Nov 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It has been said many times on this forum

You cannot be disqualified for wrong or missing Playing Handicap (the figure after the 95% percent calculation).

The only thing that needs to be on card and be correct is the your Course Handicap (the figure from the charts).
		
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Ok, that's all very fair and reasonable but clearly they've had to stipulate that because they know so many people will have no idea what they're playing off!


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2020)

I count myself as fairly clued up about WHS...not to the level of some, but I know what's what.
The one thing that still makes my brain burst is that on Nov 1st I had a handicap that gave me "X" number of shots in a competition. 
From November 2nd I have a handicap that gives me "X+2" shots on the very same course and tees.
There's logic in there somewhere but im struggling to find it.


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## IanM (Nov 18, 2020)

I guess there is logic in an increase if you had the majority of recent scores over handicap, but then you'll say you haven't!


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2020)

IanM said:



			I guess there is logic in an increase if you had the majority of recent scores over handicap, but then you'll say you haven't! 

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6 of my 8 are in my most recent 7 rounds....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			You've lost me there to be honest - are you saying the 'world' handicap system is not the same all over the world? Wasn't that the entire point of changing it?
		
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Yes it's different 

To get your playing handicap in the UK you do the following 

Take the slope of course / by 113 (average) times by index 

So my course 121 / 133 X 25.2 gives me 27

Or just open the app and it does it for you 

Go to America or other places you do the following 

Go to the app and enter 

Slope, course rating, index and par of course 

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

I'd be off 29 at my course and 26 at the easier course ... The way round I expected it

Not the 27 at mine and 29 at the easier course


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## Bdill93 (Nov 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes it's different

To get your playing handicap in the UK you do the following

Take the slope of course / by 113 (average) times by index

So my course 121 / 133 X 25.2 gives me 27

Or just open the app and it does it for you

Go to America or other places you do the following

Go to the app and enter

Slope, course rating, index and par of course

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

I'd be off 29 at my course and 26 at the easier course ... The way round I expected it

Not the 27 at mine and 29 at the easier course
		
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Interesting this! 

My Index is 22.1, at my home course in the UK I play off 24. Using that calculator id be off 22 (working on the basis of me picking up the whole course and moving it stateside!) 

Seems to make more sense! Alas, it wont change so Im not going to moan! Playing handicap on the card and let the computer do the work!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Interesting this!

My Index is 22.1, at my home course in the UK I play off 24. Using that calculator id be off 22 (working on the basis of me picking up the whole course and moving it stateside!)

Seems to make more sense! Alas, it wont change so Im not going to moan! Playing handicap on the card and let the computer do the work!
		
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What do we have to put on card? I'd like to just put. Score. Index, tee used


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## IanM (Nov 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			6 of my 8 are in my most recent 7 rounds....
		
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and were they better or worse than handicap?   (Handicap, using the old meaning of the word than everyone understood for the past 100 years!_


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2020)

IanM said:



			and were they better or worse than handicap?   (Handicap, using the old meaning of the word than everyone understood for the past 100 years!_
		
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3 cuts, 2 bang on, 1 buffer..


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## IanM (Nov 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			3 cuts, 2 bang on, 1 buffer..
		
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2 possibilities.   

a) Blimey, that makes no sense - unless the cuts were larger under CONGU than they would have been under WHS, leaving your final H'Cap on the low side!   *(wow, have I sussed it?)*

b) Your club has forgotten to multiply the ordinal integers by the yardage of your 12th hole and divide by the menu number of Beef in Green Peppers and Black Bean Sauce at the Chinese Take-Away that is the 11th furthest from the northern perimeter of your club cark park.  Given the difference, they may have used the number for Chow Mein in error.  *(Caveat: This may be less daft than the actual answer!) *


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2020)

IanM said:



			2 possibilities.  

a) Blimey, that makes no sense - unless the cuts were larger under CONGU than they would have been under WHS, leaving your final H'Cap on the low side!   *(wow, have I sussed it?)*

b) Your club has forgotten to multiply the ordinal integers by the yardage of your 12th hole and divide by the menu number of Beef in Green Peppers and Black Bean Sauce at the Chinese Take-Away that is the 11th furthest from the northern perimeter of your club cark park.  Given the difference, they may have used the number for Chow Mein in error.  *(Caveat: This may be less daft than the actual answer!) *

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Errrrr.....B


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## IanM (Nov 18, 2020)

In all seriousness, given this is all maths based, the answer should be provable.  

While I was typing that, I wondered if the Slope/Course ratings of your course are relatively "higher"  (gonna get in trouble for saying that, but you'll get my drift) than the old SSS.  (the bits that are not maths based!)  But you will shortly get a ban from your Country Union for having the audacity to question things that don't concern you!


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## Bdill93 (Nov 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			What do we have to put on card? I'd like to just put. Score. Index, tee used
		
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I believe - course handicap. The one found on the helpful boards near the first tee (at my club). The computer does everything else for us!

My only real question is - do you play 100% of handicap in stableford comps? Is 95% solely stroke play?


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## yandabrown (Nov 18, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I believe - course handicap. The one found on the helpful boards near the first tee (at my club). The computer does everything else for us!

My only real question is - do you play 100% of handicap in stableford comps? Is 95% solely stroke play?
		
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I beleive that 100% is only used in singles matchplay.


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## IainP (Nov 18, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I believe - course handicap. The one found on the helpful boards near the first tee (at my club). The computer does everything else for us!

My only real question is - do you play 100% of handicap in stableford comps? Is 95% solely stroke play?
		
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No & yes 😁
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw0t25jpjZ4DEFlBt4Wul-kC


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## Bdill93 (Nov 18, 2020)

IainP said:



			No & yes 😁
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw0t25jpjZ4DEFlBt4Wul-kC

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Very helpful!! 95% on most of the comps we host! All I needed to know!


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## Orikoru (Nov 18, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I believe - course handicap. The one found on the helpful boards near the first tee (at my club). The computer does everything else for us!
		
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Most scorecards I've seen already had 'handicap' and 'strokes received' boxes by each player, so you could write your index and also the number of shots (you think) you received for that round.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Most scorecards I've seen already had 'handicap' and 'strokes received' boxes by each player, so you could write your index and also the number of shots (you think) you received for that round.
		
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Thats exactly what our cards say!!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 18, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Most scorecards I've seen already had 'handicap' and 'strokes received' boxes by each player, so you could write your index and also the number of shots (you think) you received for that round.
		
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It going to be like VAR for golf.
You think you might have won a comp , but will have to wait for the result because a lot of players don’t know what handicap they are playing off that day.


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## drewster (Nov 18, 2020)

Was off 10.8, handicap index now 8.6 but off of our whites i'll still get 11 shots and 10 off the yellows so nothing has really changed apart from the fact i'm now a bona fide SFG !!!!!


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