# New Golf Thinking opportunity - the lucky 8 are....



## MikeH (Apr 2, 2014)

as ever thanks to those who put themselves forward for this interesting opportunity

John O'Keefe who co-auhtored the book with Denis Pugh and will be leading the day played a major role in the selection process and is looking forward to working with the below forumers on April 29 at The Grove

Once the process is underway I'm sure everyone will enjoy following the progress of the 8

Ive been reading the book and its certainly got some great ideas so I have big hopes for this!


Martin Bedborough/homerjsimpson
Paul Houghton/Sainthacker
Bryan Bateman/Need_my_wedge
Paul Little/PieMan
Philip Murgatroyd/PhilTheFragger
Nick Johnson/Hacker Khan
Dave Spratt/Khamelion
Scott Roots/Rooter

I wil email all the above with some more details on the day


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2014)

congrats to the top 7, does no 8 ever miss


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## MikeH (Apr 2, 2014)

fundy said:



			congrats to the top 7, does no 8 ever miss 

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picked out for mentally being a complete wrong 'un which i'm sure few would disagree with


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## GB72 (Apr 2, 2014)

fundy said:



			congrats to the top 7, does no 8 ever miss 

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I know, he jokingly loaned me his luck on Twitter for a week and I won a 4 ball at Woodhall Spa, a load of Tigers kit and a leather overnight bag &#128516;


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2014)

Looks like number 1 could put the entire Psychoanalytical profession to the test.. This could be the end of Sports Psychology as we know it...


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## Khamelion (Apr 2, 2014)

Had to check the list twice, first time I've been picked/won anything, so chuffed to bits.

Thank you very much Mike.

Looking forward to meeting the others on the day.


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## Rooter (Apr 2, 2014)

Now i realise why Fundy is abusing me on twitter! Mike is bang on with his description! Whoop! thanks guys, see you in a few weeks!

Who wants to borrow my lucky pants? not too badly stained...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Looks like number 1 could put the entire Psychoanalytical profession to the test.. This could be the end of Sports Psychology as we know it...

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Believe the blog world may explode


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 2, 2014)

Giving the sports psychologist an easy ride then....  

Good luck and enjoy the grove, will  be interested to follow you progress' through the season.


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## Birchy (Apr 2, 2014)

Theres no point writing about numbers 2 to 8 (sorry guys). If this fella fixes number 1's thinking and gets him playing as well as we know he can then he is gonna be filthy rich, end of story


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## CMAC (Apr 2, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Now i realise why Fundy is abusing me on twitter! Mike is bang on with his description! Whoop! thanks guys, see you in a few weeks!

Who wants to borrow my lucky pants? not too badly stained...
		
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can you pick my lotto tickets this week please?


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## cookelad (Apr 2, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I know, he jokingly loaned me his luck on Twitter for a week and I won a 4 ball at Woodhall Spa, a load of Tigers kit and a leather overnight bag &#128516;
		
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Wonder if I can borrow his luck on Friday when I tick the "Lucky Dip" option!


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2014)

Wooooo  Thanks GM, really looking forward to it

Hope I dont blow my remaining brain cell


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## SaintHacker (Apr 2, 2014)

Yay! Fantastic news:whoo:

One request, can I either be in Homers group or behind him, just in case he starts trying to kill the people in front of him again


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 2, 2014)

Haven't had a chance to check on here today, just found out via email. Quite chuffed for this, and in esteemed company it seems. Am off to Japan at the weekend, this to look forward to when I come back.


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## philly169 (Apr 2, 2014)

Congrats to the 8, well the 7... There's always a space gone when Rooters involved!

I'll just have to wait for the as Scotty Cameron & full titleist fitting or my trip to the oven..


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## Ethan (Apr 2, 2014)

Wow, he has taken on some real hard cases. Good luck to the psychos involved.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 2, 2014)

I have the odd peek at Homer's blog when I fancy a laugh, could be hilarious now!


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2014)

Some cracking choices there Mike. Looking forward to seeing the results of the Care in the Community project


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## BTatHome (Apr 2, 2014)

I have to say this could the most interesting read for a long long time.


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 2, 2014)

Congratulations guys.

Really look forward to reading the blogs


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## Andy808 (Apr 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			picked out for mentally being a complete wrong 'un which i'm sure few would disagree with
		
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Oh we SOOO need a like button on this forum! 
Sorry Roots but he has a point. :ears:


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 2, 2014)

Hope you all enjoy it. Genuinely happy to see Homer picked,reckon he'll be like a pig in muck with this.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2014)

He may never be the same again once I've finished with him. Mind you, do Footjoy do strait jackets. Just in case you understand. If he can sort all that ills me then god knows what the new Mark II Homer will be like. You've been warned.


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## HarryMonk (Apr 2, 2014)

Good luck guys I am really looking forward to reading you reports


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## Big-Dog (Apr 2, 2014)

This is what this is all about, although been a member a short while not got involved as much as I would like but even not knowing some that have been picked (except a few by forum comments). With the response of the others it has to make great reading and coverage in the magazine I cannot wait to hear about the fall out, the woes, the trials and tribulations as well as no doubt the success stories and journeys they are going on

I await with baited breath.

Hit Em Straight ....ish


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## HotDogAssassin (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm fairly confident that after spending time with this bunch, John O'Keefe is going to be in need of some quality therapy sessions.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 3, 2014)

HotDogAssassin said:



			I'm fairly confident that after spending time with this bunch, John O'Keefe is going to be in need of some quality therapy sessions.
		
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And he'll come away having learned a few words he didn't know existed!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2014)

Really chuffed and looking forwards to this, as a bonus looks like a good bunch to me.  I think we should start a spread on how long before we break the sports psychologist and he is escorted from the course into a white van a dribbling wreck, muttering to himself, never again, never again.  I'll set it at 1 hour 30 to 1 hour 45. 

As if he can sort my shambles of a game out then he can sort anyone's out. And I will apologise in advance to anyone who gets put with me


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh good god noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

The last thing Homer needs is more to think about, especially 6 days before our next pairs board comp


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really chuffed and looking forwards to this, as a bonus looks like a good bunch to me.  I think we should start a spread on how long before we break the sports psychologist and he is escorted from the course into a white van a dribbling wreck, muttering to himself, never again, never again.  I'll set it at 1 hour 30 to 1 hour 45. 

As if he can sort my shambles of a game out then he can sort anyone's out. And I will apologise in advance to anyone who gets put with me

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If we start with my short game and given the start time of 9.45 my bet is for 9.54. I'll snap his mind like a twig. Mind you assuming we/he survives until lunch and we are allowed out on the course whats the world going to make of a collection of golfers self analysing and chanting mantra to themselves as the meander down each hole?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Oh good god noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

The last thing Homer needs is more to think about, especially 6 days before our next pairs board comp 

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Can it really make it any worse than our last outing?


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## Khamelion (Apr 3, 2014)

If I can come away with a thought process that gets me to hit the first ball clean and keep it on the short grass I'll be happy.

If I can come away with the aforementioned and something that helps keep my concentration throughout the round I'll be over the moon. 

If he can help me knock a few shots off my game, I'll offer him my missus and daughter.

The last one isn't so bad if you think about it, as I'd have peace and quiet and more time to play golf


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Wow, he has taken on some real *head/nut* cases. Good luck to the psychos involved.
		
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Corrected it for you.


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## HickoryShaft (Apr 3, 2014)

Congrats to the winning 8.

Will be interesting to follow the progress and how much this approach helps the average player - looking forward to the lively debate on here on the learning and outcome of it on your games.


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## USER1999 (Apr 3, 2014)

Does Mr Keefe also give dietary advice for my pie eating friend?


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## G.U.R (Apr 3, 2014)

Well done to the chosen 8 will be interesting to see the results.


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## vkurup (Apr 3, 2014)

Great opp for the lucky 8..  

... I need some serious luck to get into a GM opp.  (I am now convinced that I am not writing the right things in my submissions to GM Towers)..   Looks like a bad end to the week


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## HickoryShaft (Apr 3, 2014)

Just had an email from GM towers informing me that I am in when the first person of the group messes up their game.

They don't want to give the wrong impression!


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## HickoryShaft (Apr 3, 2014)

HickoryShaft said:



			Just had an email from GM towers informing me that I am in when the first person of the group messes up their game.

They don't want to give the wrong impression!
		
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Errrm......... not really, I  just wanted to give the coaches some good material to work with.

Nothing like some pressure to get the true golfer out


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 4, 2014)

Away on hols tomorrow, so just bought the book for a bit of advance reading......


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## vkurup (Apr 4, 2014)

I brought Roetella for the reading on the flight.. Cancelled my planned holiday on 29th as it is no longer needed
I am signing up Roots to get secondary info on what he learns there.


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## Rooter (Apr 5, 2014)

vkurup said:



			I am signing up Roots to get secondary info on what he learns there.
		
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Dude, I can't remember what I did yesterday!


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## PieMan (Apr 6, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Does Mr Keefe also give dietary advice for my pie eating friend?
		
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Well Darren Clarke didn't give me any so I hope so!

Really looking forward to this, although slightly apprehensive as well!!


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## Kraxx68 (Apr 6, 2014)

Gratz Dave, enjoy the experience.. remember, I have never 3 putted


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 29, 2014)

Tally Ho

Off to the Grove we go

Will report later


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

Some of the guys know already, but I had to cry off on this amazing opportunity. Most probably know with my strawberry rants that my mrs is pregnant. Well she is 39 weeks today and struggling that much I had to cancel to take the kids to school, etc etc etc. Proper gutted as my parents went back to France for th summer last week.

I had informed MIKEH that this situation may arise, so he was aware this could happen. Hope a reserve was chosen and they have a great day. 

Gutted to miss playing the grove, but more so the whole day and the follow up, off to download the ebook to see what I have missed!

Have a fab day chaps, think of me!!! My only saving grace is the weather looks awful! Hope it clears up for you chaps!!!


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 29, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Tally Ho

Off to the Grove we go

Will report later 

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Have a great day all of you. Look forward to the reports later.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 29, 2014)

I gather that Jezz has been drafted in as a last minute sub, he was going to be here anyway, and be good to get a professional journo 's take on events

The weather is going to be ok, bit misty at the mo, but that'll lift. May have the odd shower this afternoon, but we will be all so "zoned in" that we won't notice


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I gather that Jezz has been drafted in as a last minute sub, he was going to be here anyway, and be good to get a professional journo 's take on events

The weather is going to be ok, bit misty at the mo, but that'll lift. May have the odd shower this afternoon, but we will be all so "zoned in" that we won't notice 

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Cool! Jezz does need help!


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Some of the guys know already, but I had to cry off on this amazing opportunity. Most probably know with my strawberry rants that my mrs is pregnant. Well she is 39 weeks today and struggling that much I had to cancel to take the kids to school, etc etc etc. Proper gutted as my parents went back to France for th summer last week.

I had informed MIKEH that this situation may arise, so he was aware this could happen. Hope a reserve was chosen and they have a great day. 

Gutted to miss playing the grove, but more so the whole day and the follow up, off to download the ebook to see what I have missed!

Have a fab day chaps, think of me!!! My only saving grace is the weather looks awful! Hope it clears up for you chaps!!!
		
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you booked it knowing your wife would be 39 weeks by then? wow.


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			you booked it knowing your wife would be 39 weeks by then? wow.
		
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yup because past pregnancies have all been late and she has been fine historically. that ok?


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			yup because past pregnancies have all been late and she has been fine historically. that ok?
		
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you tell me.

As we know past performance means little.


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## adam6177 (Apr 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			you booked it knowing your wife would be 39 weeks by then? wow.
		
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Rooter said:



			yup because past pregnancies have all been late and she has been fine historically. that ok?
		
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My best mate came away for a weeks snowboarding the week before his wife was due to give birth......


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

adam6177 said:



			My best mate came away for a weeks snowboarding the week before his wife was due to give birth......
		
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My wife worked up untill about 3 days before our first. although she was a couple of weeks early..


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			My wife worked up untill about 3 days before our first. although she was a couple of weeks early..
		
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And did you put your life on hold in advance of the predicted due date?


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			And did you put your life on hold in advance of the predicted due date?
		
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Yes


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Yes
		
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fair enough, we all make our own decisions. I had chatted to mrs rooter about it when mike announced the winners, was not a problem, The Grove is under 1hr from my house and would have kept my phone on. No different than going to work. Just unfortunately this pregnancy has hit her differently to the others, as you mentioned, past performances can vary.

Mike was fully aware of my situation from the start.


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## bladeplayer (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			fair enough, we all make our own decisions. I had chatted to mrs rooter about it when mike announced the winners, was not a problem, The Grove is under 1hr from my house and would have kept my phone on. No different than going to work. Just unfortunately this pregnancy has hit her differently to the others, as you mentioned, past performances can vary.

Mike was fully aware of my situation from the start.
		
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Why are you explaining yourself dude ? 

You & mrs Rooter business , nobody elses , especially  no one on here


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Why are you explaining yourself dude ? 

You & mrs Rooter business , nobody elses , especially  no one on here
		
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felt i needed to after guest100718's comments. you are of course right though


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			felt i needed to after guest100718's comments. you are of course right though 

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err.. you posted first....about 39 weeks etc...


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			err.. you posted first....about 39 weeks etc...
		
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and you responded questioning my integrity.... doesnt matter. move on!


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			and you responded questioning my integrity.... doesnt matter. move on!
		
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lol take it easy. im not questioning your integrity. I am surprised you signed up for something with high odds you wouldnt make, that's all.


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

Anyway, hope that the guys attending have a great day and learn something new. BTT!


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## SaintHacker (Apr 29, 2014)

Having a break. It seems there is much work to do on my mental attitude! Although the M25 didn't exactly help me get off in the best of moods! :angry:


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 29, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Why are you explaining yourself dude ? 

You & mrs Rooter business , nobody elses , especially  no one on here
		
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Exactly right.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 29, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			Having a break. It seems there is much work to do on my mental attitude! Although the M25 didn't exactly help me get off in the best of moods! :angry:
		
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don't suppose your the only one!


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



			don't suppose your the only one! 

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was homer allowed a break? or did he have to work through?


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			was homer allowed a break? or did he have to work through?
		
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:rofl: :rofl:   hope he was last or the mind coach will be offski!


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## guest100718 (Apr 29, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Exactly right.
		
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Meh


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## richart (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			was homer allowed a break? or did he have to work through?
		
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 Hopefully he will find the over thinking button, turn it off, job done.:thup:


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## vkurup (Apr 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Anyway, hope that the guys attending have a great day and learn something new. BTT!
		
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Scooter not going... Looks like the avg IQ/EQ of the group has gone up..


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Scooter not going... Looks like the avg IQ/EQ of the group has gone up.. 

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But the average age has gone up with Jezz in attendance!  quality haircut and good looks level remain the same.


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## philly169 (Apr 29, 2014)

With Rooter not able to go means he is a cert for the next opportunity.. probably a once in a lifetime full fitting in at the Oven or the like... 

jokes  hope all goes well with Mrs Rooter.


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## CMAC (Apr 29, 2014)

philly169 said:



*With Rooter not able to go means he is a cert for the next opportunity.*. probably a once in a lifetime full fitting in at the Oven or the like... 

jokes  hope all goes well with Mrs Rooter.
		
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Mikes already stated anyone who's had 'an opportunity' is void for a good while..........this one didnt include equipment...........plus he really needs some mental work done:ears:


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2014)

CMAC said:



			Mikes already stated anyone who's had 'an opportunity' is void for a good while..........this one didnt include equipment...........plus he really needs some mental work done:ears:
		
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Really really do! don't need or want any equipment! like many others, the lure of this opportunity was too much being such an interesting topic! hope the guys are keeping dry, its been a bit on and off rain with me, but have a feeling they could stay lucky and dry!


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 29, 2014)

Brains duly scrambled,  what an interesting and eye opening day
Just finished the golf and having a pint with the lads.

Full report to follow. 
Feeling knackered


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## SaintHacker (Apr 29, 2014)

Well home now and fed and watered after a long, tiring, but very enjoyable day. Big thanks to GM for the opportunity. What a course the Grove is, if you get the chance to play it, take it, you won't be disappointed. Thanks also to Phil, Martin and Nick for the good company and banter on the way round, and for putting up with my occasional potty mouth outbursts, although Phil, if you ever call me 'babe' again there will be trouble!
I won't go into the whole mental approach bit just yet as to be honest it was a bit of a brain fryer and I need some more time to digest it, although my initial impressions are that it is something that would probably benefit the better player more than a high 'capper like myself.
Lastly thanks to Jezz for stepping in for Mike at the last minute. Apparently there is no truth in the rumour Mike dropped out due to the weekends footy results...:ears:


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 30, 2014)

It was a good day yesterday. The morning session was quite full, and requires a bit more digestion. I think I get what he was saying, the hard part is going to be applying it to every shot, I found it too easy yesterday to forget, so may take a while, but, it isn't intended as an instant fix. Thanks to Jezz, Paul and Dave for the company during the round, a very enjoyable course, and experience, and the rain stayed away too, bonus.  Thanks to GM for the whole day.


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## Khamelion (Apr 30, 2014)

A really superb day yesterday, got in myself at 00:30hrs this morning, had plenty time, was going to write, to try, (_but there is no try now, either do or don't_), to digest yesterday morning, but my brain is still on over load. As Paul and Bryan mention above there is loads to think about and once I get my head around it, it will help of that I have no doubt.

The course at the grove was fantastic, some of the tee boxes were in better knick than the greens I've seen at some courses. Didn't get much opportunity to get a few snaps, but got the below, those on twitter may have seen these already.










Sun was out, we had a few drops of rain, but you could count them on one hand. I enjoyed the round of golf played some good shots, no C's, a few I' and played some bad shots, M's and lots of W's, so lots of room for improvement. Great company in our fourball, with Jezz, Paul and Bryan cheer fellas made for a enjoyable round.

Thank you to Mike for picking me in the first place and a big thank you to John, who has giving me and probably the others lots to think about and do (there is no try).

A write up of the morning with John will be forthcoming once I can gather me thoughts, but for the time being, shout out SILK as loud as you can 12 times, then 6 times, then 3 times, then ask yourself what to cows drink.

Phil, Saint, is it Milk?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 30, 2014)

A really good day. Big thanks to John O'Keefe, GM and the other guinea pigs who were there. Great to put names to faces of those I've not met before and great to catch up with the likes of Pieman and Phil the Frag. A really intense morning although the presentation was done in a very good way but a lot of information to absorb. Definitely a case of having to go away, look at the book and work through it based on my own needs. 

The Grove was a joy to play. They had treated the greens so only running about 9.5 on the stimp but they were still so true. We were playing off silver (medal) tees and so it was a real challenge at 6766 yards. The morning work must have done something for me. I had 32 points (17 and 15) and started on the 340 yard first with three wood and 8 iron to six feet. I lost a few shots on the last three holes but to be honest by that stage I was mentally and physically knackered. 

It was a great day and plenty to work on. I can't say it will turn me into a world beater overnight but there is some good stuff to work on but I reckon it'll take some time to become something I do automatically. A very interesting day and lets see how we go from here.


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## Fish (Apr 30, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			A write up of the morning with John will be forthcoming once I can gather me thoughts, but for the time being, shout out SILK as loud as you can 12 times, then 6 times, then 3 times, then ask yourself what to cows drink.

Phil, Saint, is it Milk? 

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That's the same as the old bread/toast word association.

Looking forward to hearing a breakdown of the morning with John, but my question would be, has it given you too many more things to think about?


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## Khamelion (Apr 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			That's the same as the old bread/toast word association.

Looking forward to hearing a breakdown of the morning with John, but my question would be, has it given you too many more things to think about?
		
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It has given us lots of things to think about, but the way the talk and how the book is structured is that you can find the area that will give the early best results and work on that area alone, dismissing the other areas till needed. It's all about focus.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2014)

Others have summed up the day perfectly, very enjoyable day and a great 4 ball to play in.  

I may have been a little intimidated playing The Grove off the medal tees as it was long, especially to someone with my handicap. Which meant at times it was challenging trying to remember to have very positive thoughts and be in mental position A at all times when I was hacking out of the rough.  Plus my driving was inconsistent to put it politely, varying from occasionally boom boom to whack whack oops.  But as they say, it's a process and something that I definitely think will help me get better. Many thanks GM.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			That's the same as the old bread/toast word association.

Looking forward to hearing a breakdown of the morning with John, but my question would be, has it given you too many more things to think about?
		
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As Khamelion has mentioned, we did a 'mental handicap questionnaire' that sort of highlighted the areas you should start to concentrate on.  And of course at the start then you can argue that there are more things to think about in addition to the several swing thoughts most golfers have (which you are supposed to mostly forget about, easier said than done in my case).  

But I can definitely see that if you concentrate on your areas where you are the weakest mentally to begin with, it will all become more natural over time.


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## fundy (Apr 30, 2014)

Come on guys, give us a bit more about the process and what you learnt in the morning, or is it all a big secret?


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 30, 2014)

Not easy to put all the words into a post. From what I've read of the book so far, John's workshop was fairly well verbatim, apart from a couple of exercises down as a group. At a basic level, it's about putting yourself in mental position A, and staying there -  http://www.newgolfthinking.com/.


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## CMAC (Apr 30, 2014)

c'mon guys, DETAILS. Proper forum write ups as per the norm for everyone that didnt attend and want to know more.

Pics and vids (as one excellent write up had) would be a benefit


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## vkurup (Apr 30, 2014)

CMAC said:



			c'mon guys, DETAILS. Proper forum write ups as per the norm for everyone that didnt attend and want to know more.

Pics and vids (as one excellent write up had) would be a benefit
		
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Only if the _*Le Scooter *_was at the event.. we wud have had a write up by now along with 300 tweets..


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## Rooter (Apr 30, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Only if the _*Le Scooter *_was at the event.. we wud have had a write up by now along with 300 tweets..
		
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Of course, i am value for money i am!


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## PieMan (Apr 30, 2014)

Very interesting day. Was great to see a couple of familiar faces in PTF and HJS and was good to meet the other guys. Went into this with an open mind as previously have been a bit sceptical about sports psychology in the past. For me what I was looking for we're ideas to help put me in a more positive frame of mind when playing, particularly if playing and scoring badly and therefore trying not to put pressure on myself to force things and try to make a score.

Like others have said, a bit difficult to put into words exactly what was covered as the morning part was quite intensive, but it's all clearly explained on the website. For me got some great tips on playing well under pressure and keeping concentration levels up; and avoiding any negative mind sets (i.e. 'Never play this hole / shot well'); which worked brilliantly on a number of holes where I made birdies and where in the past I have not played well. Also found the tips on not being distracted by others negativity very useful - they are obviously going to come in use on other Forum days!!

The golf in the afternoon was very enjoyable - Jezz, Khamelion and n_m_w were excellent company and we had good fun putting the morning exercises to use!

Thanks to GM for the opportunity, and also to John O'Keeffe for imparting his wisdom and knowledge on us - am certainly going to hope I use it to good effect over the next few months, starting on Friday!


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## CMAC (Apr 30, 2014)

PieMan said:



			Very interesting day. Was great to see a couple of familiar faces in PTF and HJS and was good to meet the other guys. Went into this with an open mind as previously have been a bit sceptical about sports psychology in the past. For me what I was looking for we're ideas to help put me in a more positive frame of mind when playing, particularly if playing and scoring badly and therefore trying not to put pressure on myself to force things and try to make a score.

Like others have said, a bit difficult to put into words exactly what was covered as the morning part was quite intensive, but it's all clearly explained on the website. For me *got some great tips on playing well under pressure and keeping concentration levels up*; and *avoiding any negative mind sets* (i.e. 'Never play this hole / shot well'); *which worked brilliantly on a number of holes where I made birdies and where in the past I have not played well*. Also found the tips on not being distracted by others negativity very useful - they are obviously going to come in use on other Forum days!!

The golf in the afternoon was very enjoyable - Jezz, Khamelion and n_m_w were excellent company and we had good fun putting the morning exercises to use!

Thanks to GM for the opportunity, and also to John O'Keeffe for imparting his wisdom and knowledge on us - am certainly going to hope I use it to good effect over the next few months, starting on Friday!
		
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care to share for the groups benefit?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 30, 2014)

CMAC said:



			care to share for the groups benefit?

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As others have said it really is difficult to sum up and do the techniques justice on here. The greatest thing I took away was getting into "mental position A" which is basically a tool to find the best in any golfing situation and then progress from there. A good example used was "I always much this hole up". The mental position A may be "I've played it badly and so I'm due a birdie today"

The other thing was to take distance readings to the back of the green. Most of the trouble is at the front and most golfers choose "vanity clubs". We spent a large chunk talking about stopping the shorties, be it shots into greens, pitches or coming up short on the green.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 30, 2014)

Fish said:



			has it given you too many more things to think about?
		
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Personally I would say yes, and I think my game suffered for it. I started off fine but got gradually worse as the round went on, to the point that I tried to forget what I was supposed to be concentrating on and just get back to hitting a ball in roughly the right direction. Like I said in my earlier post I think it is something that will help the better player more than someone like me, who has enough technical problems that no amount of positivity can cure like a lesson will!


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## JezzE (Apr 30, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally I would say yes, and I think my game suffered for it. I started off fine but got gradually worse as the round went on, to the point that I tried to forget what I was supposed to be concentrating on and just get back to hitting a ball in roughly the right direction. Like I said in my earlier post I think it is something that will help the better player more than someone like me, who has enough technical problems that no amount of positivity can cure like a lesson will!
		
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Good to meet you yesterday Paul, and just a quick one here, but while I appreciate what you're saying about technical issues, and would put my average play yesterday down to technical problems rather than mental ones, I actually think from my observations over the years of watching mid to high-handicappers that there is far greater scope for them to benefit more from a change of thinking than lower handicappers. I suppose what I'm saying is that I think higher handicappers lose a higher percentage of shots through poor thinking as opposed to poor execution than they think they do, even if it's just a matter of applying John's 'play for the back of the green' yardage philosophy more often.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 30, 2014)

Fair comment Jezz. I'm certainly not writing it off and I fully intend to persevere with it. Possibly yesterday I suffered from a bit of 'overload', and tried to remember and apply too much and it had a detrimental effect. The back of the green yardage was the one thing that really sunk in, and worked to some extent.


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## garyinderry (Apr 30, 2014)

''avoiding any negative mind sets (i.e. 'Never play this hole / shot well');  ''


I played Formby hall last week for the 3rd time and my mind was drawn to places on holes where I had previously been in trouble.  memories on the 15th of dumping it in the water, being in bunkers etc.   some of these things are good as to avoid a repeat, others I suppose reinforce negative thinking.  pretty much impossible to filter the good information from the bad. a single thought could be both.


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally I would say yes, and I think my game suffered for it. I started off fine but got gradually worse as the round went on, to the point that I tried to forget what I was supposed to be concentrating on and just get back to hitting a ball in roughly the right direction. Like I said in my earlier post I think it is something that will help the better player more than someone like me, who has enough technical problems that no amount of positivity can cure like a lesson will!
		
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Hi Paul,

That's a straight departure from mental position A . I can see why you think these techniques are more applicable to a low handicapper, but, turn it around and put it back to MPA (gonna use that for mental position a from now on) - these techniques will help me if I use them (regardless of my handicap). There was a whole heap of information and data during the morning session, and to try and apply all at once would I think be system overload. Just pick one or two of the apples (nearly said try and pick....)  and focus on eating them slowly for a while. Personally, I think the same as Homer, the two that will help immediately - play to the back of the green, and reduce the shorties. I think that is a good place to start. All the best.


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## Ethan (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As others have said it really is difficult to sum up and do the techniques justice on here. The greatest thing I took away was getting into "mental position A" which is basically a tool to find the best in any golfing situation and then progress from there. A good example used was "I always much this hole up". The mental position A may be "I've played it badly and so I'm due a birdie today"

The other thing was to take distance readings to the back of the green. Most of the trouble is at the front and most golfers choose "vanity clubs". We spent a large chunk talking about stopping the shorties, be it shots into greens, pitches or coming up short on the green.
		
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Can you get directions from Mental Position Z to Mental Position A on satnav?


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Can you get directions from Mental Position Z to Mental Position A on satnav?
		
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Don't need satnav.... just need to see the hole and head straight there.....


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## Fish (May 1, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			The back of the green yardage was the one thing that really sunk in, and worked to some extent.
		
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I've advocated this for nearly a year now and mentioned it on here many times.  The pro (not MY Pro) I was having lessons with explained that by going for the back yardages irrelevant of the pin position I'd probably only put it beyond the green if I really flushed my shot, as such, most would be short either putting me in the middle of the green or if I caught it a little heavy I'd be at the front of the green, but, the main thing was I would have mainly carried the hazards that predominately protect the greens at the front and I would be more times on the green than not! Only if its a huge green with the flag at the front I might take a different yardage but in the main, I work to the back.


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## Imurg (May 1, 2014)

Fish said:



			I've advocated this for nearly a year now and mentioned it on here many times.  The pro (not MY Pro) I was having lessons with explained that by going for the back yardages irrelevant of the pin position I'd probably only put it beyond the green if I really flushed my shot, as such, most would be short either putting me in the middle of the green or if I caught it a little heavy I'd be at the front of the green, but, the main thing was I would have mainly carried the hazards that predominately protect the greens at the front and I would be more times on the green than not! Only if its a huge green with the flag at the front I might take a different yardage but in the main, I work to the back.
		
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Up to a point I'll agree but it is very dependent on what's behind the green. We have quite a few greens where, if you overshoot by 5-10 yards, you're screwed. Pins are often on the back section too so with, say, 150 to the middle, 165 to the back, I'd be going for a 150 yard shot on those type of greens. The penalty between being short and long could easily be a couple of shots.

Also, if your "normal" 7 goes, say, 150 and it's 150 to the back, doesn't it make more sense to hit the 8 iron? A "normal" 7 is going to put you, at best, on the very back of the green- all it would take is a hard bounce and you're shot.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

The thinking as I understand it, is that you need to be aiming for the back 90% of the time and that the other 10% takes into account those times when going long is going to be penal. We have a couple of holes, including our 12th in particular, where there is a lateral hazard ten yards over the back and so it makes no sense to be long, especially with a middle or back pin. 

The back yardage is applicable for alot of golfers the majority of the time as is stopping the shorties in terms of coming up shy on chips and putts in particular. There is a whole section in the ebook (well worth downloading) which explains this in detail and gives you a scorecard to take out in practice rounds and will show just how often this happens and over time will help you eradicate this. 

There are a lot of other things that can be used to think better but as Sainthacker said, it was a lot to take in and hard to try and apply everything. If I am being honest, I stopped filling in my chart we were suppose to be using after six holes, just focussed on the back yardage and playing my game and hit it nicely. I was trying for career shots on every one as per the the thinking, just not recording the data. I will be doing a lot of work on the different charts and ideas in practice rounds and hope that it starts to become second nature once I get into a competitive arena. I think I need to read each section one by one and start with the areas most applicable to me and work on them


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## Fish (May 1, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Up to a point I'll agree but it is very dependent on what's behind the green. We have quite a few greens where, if you overshoot by 5-10 yards, you're screwed. Pins are often on the back section too so with, say, 150 to the middle, 165 to the back, I'd be going for a 150 yard shot on those type of greens. The penalty between being short and long could easily be a couple of shots.

Also, if your "normal" 7 goes, say, 150 and it's 150 to the back, doesn't it make more sense to hit the 8 iron? A "normal" 7 is going to put you, at best, on the very back of the green- all it would take is a hard bounce and you're shot.
		
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Like in everything there will always be exceptional circumstances that mean it would be unwise to use that formula due to water, trees etc immediately at or up to the rear of the green, but for me, at my level, and I would _think_ for most handicap golfers, we are all predominately short of our intended target or more often short than long, so, it works for me and keeps me out of greenside bunkers or awkward greenside chips as the main idea behind it is to carry the immediate hazards but if we went pin hunting and were short, its a bunker shot and still possibly 2 putts, I'll take my chances at the rear yardages more often than not.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2014)

Fish said:



			I've advocated this for nearly a year now and mentioned it on here many times.  The pro (not MY Pro) I was having lessons with explained that by going for the back yardages irrelevant of the pin position I'd probably only put it beyond the green if I really flushed my shot, as such, most would be short either putting me in the middle of the green or if I caught it a little heavy I'd be at the front of the green, but, the main thing was I would have mainly carried the hazards that predominately protect the greens at the front and I would be more times on the green than not! Only if its a huge green with the flag at the front I might take a different yardage but in the main, I work to the back.
		
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Well, using the back of the green distance is a pretty good idea generally - danger/pin placement notwithstanding.

Fish is apparently also naturally applying the 'no negative thoughts' philosophy too - no comments in Football threads for 'a while'!


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## Fish (May 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Fish is apparently also naturally applying the 'no negative thoughts' philosophy too - no comments in Football threads for 'a while'!
		
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I've unsubscribed to them all before last night


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## pbrown7582 (May 1, 2014)

Fish said:



			I've unsubscribed to them all before last night 
	View attachment 10244

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:rofl: :rofl:

Ps. Don't blame you.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

The points about going for the back of the green 80% of the time and avoiding shorties were the only 2 "tactical" things mentioned during the session, everything else was about having the correct mental attitude and recognising when you are slipping out of "MPA" and tactics for putting a positive spin on even the most useless shot.

Avoiding talking yourself down and putting undue pressure on yourself after  a bad shot, these are skills that will help everyone given a bit of time to get used to the new way of thinking

As for The Grove itself, what a lovely place, excellent service and the course was lush,  got 5 pars, but did get chewed up on some of the others. A joy to play, but at Â£165 per head a round, dont think i'll be back unless its by invite, Thanks again to GM,

Im going to read the book and pick out the parts that I think will be most beneficial to both my enjoyment of the game and scoring, with the ultimate aim of slamming Imurg even more regularly than in recent weeks 

unfortunately the book isnt available as a book yet, only a download to a Kindle, / Ipad/ Iphone or other PC/tablet device, but at only a fiver, its a very good investment in your game


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



			:rofl: :rofl:

Ps. Don't blame you.
		
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:rofl: :thup:


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## vkurup (May 1, 2014)

As a high HC, I find this really interesting..  (as Homer might back me up) On many holes I can hit the ball, but I think i take a lot of bad decisions. Last weekend S/F I had 2 birdies and had to pick up the ball with a 'birdie for 4' comment that did not go down well, but I also had 2 blobs to negate those.

I like the concept of back of the green.. though some of our bunkers are at the back.. so I guess HJS version of '90% to back, 10% the rest' works.  These days I am going for the centre irrespective of where the flag is - just have to remember that advice everytime.  Is there a process that you can do?

Finally, I seem to have an opposite problem to negativity.  I played 36 holes as Swinley recently.  Shot 28 pts in the morning which was ok.  In the afternoon session
 - On the holes that I did poorly in the morning --> I was thinking, how do I not get into the same position, so changed my line and so played safe and had a good hole.
 - On the holes that I played well in the morning --> I was thinking, this is an easy hole that I par-ed in the morning, so easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy... result 1 point or worse!!!
Is there a case of too much positive going to your head???  Guess I need a shrink (and a prayer)


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Finally, I seem to have an opposite problem to negativity.  I played 36 holes as Swinley recently.  Shot 28 pts in the morning which was ok.  In the afternoon session
 - On the holes that I did poorly in the morning --> I was thinking, how do I not get into the same position, so changed my line and so played safe and had a good hole.
 - On the holes that I played well in the morning --> I was thinking, this is an easy hole that I par-ed in the morning, so easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy... result 1 point or worse!!!
Is there a case of too much positive going to your head???  Guess I need a shrink (and a prayer)
		
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All about MPA. If it's a hole you play badly on a regular basis..... you're due. If you get a shot on the hole....it's a 3 pointer. If you don't get a shot...... it's an easy par.


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## Fish (May 1, 2014)

There's some jargon being spoken here, do you care to share, MPA?


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

Surely when playing you tell yourself you're going to cream every shot anyway. No?

'Forget about the last one and play the next one.' That's my advice. Can I have some money please.....


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

need_my_wedge said:



			........ but, turn it around and put it back to MPA (gonna use that for mental position a from now on) - these techniques will help me if I use them (regardless of my handicap). .......
		
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T'was me coining the acronym about two pages back


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Back of the green yardage surely very course dependent, theres only 2 holes on our course where I would prefer to miss long rather than short and with the rough round the greens growing pretty severe already theres several holes where you've next to no chance if you're past the pin


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## CMAC (May 1, 2014)

A poll to see how many times you have gone over the back off the green in your last 4 rounds would be useful.

My fig would prob be one!

Famous pro maybe Hunter Mahan (cant remember but I posted awhile back) said take the club that gets you to the back of the green and swing easier, result, more pin high shots.


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## Birchy (May 1, 2014)

Can anybody download this ebook thing?


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## garyinderry (May 1, 2014)

why not aim at the middle of the green as apposed to the back.   fly one to the back of our greens at the minute and you will bounce out the back 20 yards.



why not aim for the middle of the greens. it should give you a club either side and you should still be on the green.   simple!


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Back of the green yardage surely very course dependent, theres only 2 holes on our course where I would prefer to miss long rather than short and with the rough round the greens growing pretty severe already theres several holes where you've next to no chance if you're past the pin
		
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This wasn't the 100% option Fundy. John suggested 90% of the time it's better to finish past the pin than short of the pin, although he did give us an easier target of 80%......  Of course there are times when you need to lay up and aim for the pin instead, but they fit the 10% - 20% instances.


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			why not aim at the middle of the green as apposed to the back.   fly one to the back of our greens at the minute and you will bounce out the back 20 yards.



why not aim for the middle of the greens. it should give you a club either side and you should still be on the green.   simple!
		
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It was more gauged to finishing past the pin rather than short of the pin. Will be more of a challenge in the summer when it's dry and warm.....


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Can anybody download this ebook thing?
		
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yep, got it through Amazon for my ipad. the kindle version has some formatting issues on Apple. Mentioned this to John, who said that there is now a version available on ibooks that formats fine on Apple products.


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## Birchy (May 1, 2014)

need_my_wedge said:



			yep, got it through Amazon for my ipad. the kindle version has some formatting issues on Apple. Mentioned this to John, who said that there is now a version available on ibooks that formats fine on Apple products.
		
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Will give it a go :thup:

Always good to read about different ways to approach parts of the game imo.


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## SaintHacker (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Back of the green yardage surely very course dependent, theres only 2 holes on our course where I would prefer to miss long rather than short and with the rough round the greens growing pretty severe already theres several holes where you've next to no chance if you're past the pin
		
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need_my_wedge said:



			This wasn't the 100% option Fundy. John suggested 90% of the time it's better to finish past the pin than short of the pin, although he did give us an easier target of 80%......  Of course there are times when you need to lay up and aim for the pin instead, but they fit the 10% - 20% instances.
		
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And also its based on how often you actually hit the perfect shot. Say a perfectly struck 7 iron for you goes 150. How many times do you catch it flush enough to go the full 150? For me its probably about 30% or something, so therefore it makes sense to aim longer knowing that a less than perfect shot will still clear the trouble at the front and be somewhere near pin high. If I do flush it then the worst that happens is it might trickle off the back. Obviously there are going to be situations that change the thinking a bit, like a green with significant trouble behind, or a pin cut right on the front, but like John said course designers generally put the trouble at the front of the green for a reason!


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			And also its based on how often you actually hit the perfect shot. Say a perfectly struck 7 iron for you goes 150. How many times do you catch it flush enough to go the full 150? For me its probably about 30% or something, so therefore it makes sense to aim longer knowing that a less than perfect shot will still clear the trouble at the front and be somewhere near pin high. If I do flush it then the worst that happens is it might trickle off the back. Obviously there are going to be situations that change the thinking a bit, like a green with significant trouble behind, or a pin cut right on the front, but like John said course designers generally put the trouble at the front of the green for a reason!
		
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Generally maybe, at our course, not really. As ours plays almost like a links course in summer theres very little trouble short of our greens (bunker at 5, bunker at 12, lake at 13 and bunker at 18) other than that the trouble is predominantly long, and on 2 of those 4 holes short is still a better option than long


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Generally maybe, at our course, not really. As ours plays almost like a links course in summer theres very little trouble short of our greens (bunker at 5, bunker at 12, lake at 13 and bunker at 18) other than that the trouble is predominantly long, and on 2 of those 4 holes short is still a better option than long
		
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There will always be exceptions to the rule, whatever the rule is.... in those cases, you will have to adapt. But again, the process is aimed at the green, and the fact that most of us come up short of the pin much of the time, therefore, aiming longer and coming up closer to where we want to be is a good thought process to engage. If you aim at the pin and finish 1 or 2 yds past, that is good, it had a chance. if you aim at the pin and finish 1 or 2 yds short, it never had a chance. this applies for all shots into the green, and all putts on the green. The idea is to get you thinking more positive, so that you reach the target more than you do now.


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## SaintHacker (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Generally maybe, at our course, not really. As ours plays almost like a links course in summer theres very little trouble short of our greens (bunker at 5, bunker at 12, lake at 13 and bunker at 18) other than that the trouble is predominantly long, and on 2 of those 4 holes short is still a better option than long
		
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OK fair enough. If you aim short then, what are you chances of holing the shot? 0%.


EDIT: Just realised Ive taken MPA without thinking about it. Its working!:thup:


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

He had some interesting thinking about how far you missed if you leave it short.  Apologies if I kind of misinterpreted it but from memory he said that if you leave a put 2 foot short the argument is that you missed by up to just under 4 feet, the 2 feet short of the hole and nearly 2 feet past the hole.  As if you finished anywhere up to 2 feet past the hole you would have been in a better position than where you are.  

Where as if you finish 2 feet past the hole that is a much better position as you had a chance of the ball dropping in the first place plus you will have seen the line when it went past.  So that's just really a 2 foot miss.

Obviously thus only applies to relatively flat greens and in some cases 2 foot short is better than 2 foot long if there is a big drop or the put back is very downhill where as the short will leave you very up hill.  But I thought it was very interesting food for thought, and could also apply to really any shot, not just puts. As if any shot is short it never had a chance.


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			OK fair enough. If you aim short then, what are you chances of holing the shot? 0%.


EDIT: Just realised Ive taken MPA without thinking about it. Its working!:thup:

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:thup::thup:


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

The same thing is applied to chips, say you have a 20 yard chip to the pin and you leave it 5 yards short, you have actually missed the target area by just under 10 yards, on the basis that 4 yards 35 inches past is better than , 5 yards short.

and you have given it a chance to go in and you should have noted how the ball reacted as it went past, giving you a read for the return

What it is doing is subconsciously increasing the target area in your head thus making it easier to hit .


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## CMAC (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			He had some interesting thinking about how far you missed if you leave it short.  Apologies if I kind of misinterpreted it but from memory he said that if you leave a put 2 foot short the argument is that you missed by up to just under 4 feet, the 2 feet short of the hole and nearly 2 feet past the hole.  As if you finished anywhere up to 2 feet past the hole you would have been in a better position than where you are.  

*Where as if you finish 2 feet past the hole that is a much better position as you had a chance of the ball dropping in the first place plus you will have seen the line when it went past.  So that's just really a 2 foot miss.*

Obviously thus only applies to relatively flat greens and in some cases 2 foot short is better than 2 foot long if there is a big drop or the put back is very downhill where as the short will leave you very up hill.  But I thought it was very interesting food for thought, and could also apply to really any shot, not just puts. As if any shot is short it never had a chance.
		
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Brand Snedeker tries to put enough speed that would go 4 feet past, invariably they go in


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## vkurup (May 1, 2014)

There are few themes coming out..
1) Go into MPA
2) For approach, Aim to the back (80-20 rule)
3) For Chip & Putt, Aim to finish 4-5 feet past the hole

Any others????  Also #2 & #3 seem to be fairly logical.  Can someone explain the MPA bit or is that something only a Mizuno player will understand?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

vkurup said:



			There are few themes coming out..
1) Go into MPA
2) For approach, Aim to the back (80-20 rule)
3) For Chip & Putt, Aim to finish 4-5 feet past the hole

Any others????  Also #2 & #3 seem to be fairly logical.  Can someone explain the MPA bit or is that something only a Mizuno player will understand?
		
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Basically it's just be positive when you play golf 

Go out with good thoughts about the round and keep to them - forget bad things and remember good things 

Played a lot of courses recently and certainly wouldn't aim long at a lot of those with big undulating greens 

95% I aim for the middle


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Basically it's just be positive when you play golf 

Go out with good thoughts about the round and keep to them - forget bad things and remember good things 

Played a lot of courses recently and certainly wouldn't aim long at a lot of those with big undulating greens 

95% I aim for the middle
		
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We had a round at the Grove in the afternoon. Thos greens were definitely much bigger than most clubs I play at and most had some serious contours on. I was taking a reading to the back of each green not knowing too much about what was behind (ignorance being bliss). I was usually middle of most greens and those that were long were still withing 25-30 feet and so two putt range. In fact I only had one three putt where I came up three feet short on one putt and missed the next. 

To say being positive and have good thoughts is too simplistic as I think all those that attended would agree. It has more to do with changing thought patterns and adopting better coping mechanisms for when things aren't going to plan as well as the areas already covered by others.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We had a round at the Grove in the afternoon. Thos greens were definitely much bigger than most clubs I play at and most had some serious contours on. I was taking a reading to the back of each green not knowing too much about what was behind (ignorance being bliss). I was usually middle of most greens and those that were long were still withing 25-30 feet and so two putt range. In fact I only had one three putt where I came up three feet short on one putt and missed the next. 

To say being positive and have good thoughts is too simplistic as I think all those that attended would agree. It has more to do with changing thought patterns and adopting better coping mechanisms for when things aren't going to plan as well as the areas already covered by others.
		
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Simplistic is perfect because that's exactly the way to go - nice and simple for me , no need for patterns or coping mechanisms etc it's only a game of golf at the end of the day and a bad shot or hole or round just isn't worth worrying about. There will always be another shot or hole or round coming up. 

Aiming long to arrive short possibly shows poor distance control or possibly more work needed on ball striking.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Simplistic is perfect because that's exactly the way to go - nice and simple for me , no need for patterns or coping mechanisms etc it's only a game of golf at the end of the day and a bad shot or hole or round just isn't worth worrying about. There will always be another shot or hole or round coming up. 

Aiming long to arrive short possibly shows poor distance control or possibly more work needed on ball striking.
		
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Sorry but have to disagree totally. Is it just me and my posts you want to take issue with having already disregarded what my fellow attendees have said on the same matter?

 Clearly you have your own way of playing but for many, they take wrong clubs (machismo or vanity) and part of this is to ensure that even a mis hit (common for most of us) has a chance to be on the green at least rather than short and in trouble and well struck shots will be further up the green usually ensuring a close putt than perhaps the norm at the moment. The New Thinking has nothing to do with ball striking and so you are missing the whole point. Ask Pieman (off 5) if he needs to work at his ball striking but he found the idea of going longer onto greens a help


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

MPA (Mental Position 'A') is to give you a positive mind set, where you are not going to allow previous incidents*, bad shots, bogey hole thoughts come to the fore. If you start thinking about all the bad stuff, you need to clear you mind by putting something else in there that overcomes and blots out the bad.

It's your bogey hole, and you have the thought that no matter what you try you will slice into the trees on the right, you start thinking, a little stronger grip, left foot back etc.. and you're not thinking about the game, you've gone all technical to fix what you think is wrong and your head is all over the place. 

MPA would be picture a good shot you have made with the same club, make it clear in your mind, remember what it felt like when you hit the ball, what it sounded like, how the ball flew, how it landed, the feeling you had within yourself. Doing this will help you clear the bad bogey hole memories away and keep you positively focused.

*Other groups playing slow and allowing yourself to become wound up.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry but have to disagree totally. Clearly you have your own way of playing but for many, they take wrong clubs (machismo or vanity) and part of this is to ensure that even a mis hit (common for most of us) has a chance to be on the green at least rather than short and in trouble and well struck shots will be further up the green usually ensuring a close putt than perhaps the norm at the moment. The New Thinking has nothing to do with ball striking and so you are missing the whole point. Ask Pieman (off 5) if he needs to work at his ball striking but he found the idea of going longer onto greens a help
		
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"New Thinking" ?! - sounds more like "Too Much Thinking" 

You say it's not about ball striking yet talk about helping "mis hit" shots ?! 

And instead of taking the wrong clubs maybe people should learn about taking the "right" clubs

And as for "is it just your posts"

My first post was actually in response to Vrkup which you responded too


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

To be honest for those who did not attend it would be a lot easier to invest in the book.  I think it's about a fiver which is about the price of a pint of Peronni, or less than a sleeve of balls nowadays. In fact half the price of a sleeve of Pro V1s in most pro shops.

The problem is that a lot of the stuff that the people who attended post will not make a huge amount of sense if it is not in context, or if it is not referring to specific areas that you most need help with.  Of course it probably is not for everyone as there will always be people who are resistant to this kind of thing and think they can shoot perfectly good scores without it, and fair enough.  

But without wishing to sound like too much of a plug as I got a nice free day out of GM and John who wrote the book, I'd say it's worth a fiver and worth checking out if you at all feel that any part of your game is suffering because of the way you think about your round or game.

So if you've ever wondered why you can not hit it on the course like you can on the range then it will help, if you've ever dwelled on a previous mistake it will help, if you've ever thought too much about the technical details of your swing when trying to hit a shot it will help, if you've ever got frustrated when stuck behind lots of 4 balls going very slowly ii will help. Plus many other situations.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2014)

Is it relevant for every standard of golfer? I'm not the longest or the straightest, many off higher h'caps are longer, but I'd be inclined to say many higher handicappers lose out through poor thought processes and course mgt. Have a clear mind on what you want to achieve, and be realistic. Be clear on what your strengths are, and play to them.

Back of the green or middle or...? I always look for the yardage for the back of the green, and then eliminate the iron that would go over the back. The second calculation is what trouble is at the front. Having eliminated both of those, I can then decide if going for the flag brings either of those back into the calculation. Stay away from rubbish = stay away from bogies. Simples!


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Simplistic is perfect because that's exactly the way to go - nice and simple for me , no need for patterns or coping mechanisms etc it's only a game of golf at the end of the day and a bad shot or hole or round just isn't worth worrying about. There will always be another shot or hole or round coming up. 

Aiming long to arrive short possibly shows poor distance control or possibly more work needed on ball striking.
		
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It's all too easy to take the written word on a forum and base an argument around it. For sure, a 5 handicapper is going to hit the pin in less shots than a 20 handicapper. Whether we take the wrong club, or the right club and mis-hit, aiming longer has a better chance of being the right club. 

It's all about creating a mindset that works for you, in order to help you play better. As a 5 handicapper, you may already have a way to put yourself into MPA on every shot, you may not. As an 18 handicapper, I certainly don't yet, and I have no guarantee that what we went through yesterday will make me any better, but I will give it a go. Coming up short is a fairly common issue, and leaving it short means it had no chance of going in, so if I have to think one club more to get it past the pin,which more often that not results in me hitting it closer the target, then that's a good mindset to be playing with for me. 

That's about as simplistic as I can make it for this particular aspect of change. Note that there are other techniques to consider for improvement, but most of us seemed to pick the hit longer and don't leave shorties out there as the two that we could target quickly and simply - certainly beats all the cards we'd have to complete for some of the other ideas.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Hobbit said:



*Is it relevant for every standard of golfer*? I'm not the longest or the straightest, many off higher h'caps are longer, but I'd be inclined to say many higher handicappers lose out through poor thought processes and course mgt. Have a clear mind on what you want to achieve, and be realistic. Be clear on what your strengths are, and play to them.

Back of the green or middle or...? I always look for the yardage for the back of the green, and then eliminate the iron that would go over the back. The second calculation is what trouble is at the front. Having eliminated both of those, I can then decide if going for the flag brings either of those back into the calculation. Stay away from rubbish = stay away from bogies. Simples!
		
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I was probably the highest handicapper there and Pie Man or Jezz were the lowest I think.  And it will certainly help me in some areas, and I think Pie Man has said it helped him as well.  So the answer is yes.  Also don;t get too hung up on the hitting it past the hole thing.  That was just *one* thing to think about for *one* of the areas people may need some help with.  

It was covered in some detail in the morning and is probably one of the easiest things to remember and implement, which is why several people have mentioned it. But there were many more things on the day and in the book that may be more relevant to other areas where people may struggle.


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Is it just me or maybe just how it is coming across from those that attended but is there actually little new in this? Replace negative thoughts with positive ones (i assume you were actually given a method as this can be far easier said than done for some of us), try and get the ball past the hole etc are hardly ground breaking ideas or am I missing something.

Was hoping to read great things about a new approach but doesnt seem to be one, no doubt Ill try and read the book at the moment but sadly in no rush to do so


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"New Thinking" ?! - sounds more like "Too Much Thinking" 

You say it's not about ball striking yet talk about helping "mis hit" shots ?! 

And instead of taking the wrong clubs maybe people should learn about taking the "right" clubs

And as for "is it just your posts"

My first post was actually in response to Vrkup which you responded too
		
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And just like Aimpoint and a load of other stuff, if it doesn't fit in with your way of doing things it must be wrong


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And just like Aimpoint and a load of other stuff, if it doesn't fit in with your way of doing things it must be wrong
		
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When did I mention anything about something being "wrong" ? 

As Fundy has said this doesn't appear any different regardless of what words are being used in this "New thinking"

Think positive - simple as that 

Hit to a target you feel confident hitting towards - simple 

If you wish to make the game more complicated then away you go - golf is as simple as you can get and it's only a game that life doesn't depend upon 

Hit ball , walk , hit ball again , smile laugh enjoy drink :thup:


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And just like Aimpoint and a load of other stuff, if it doesn't fit in with your way of doing things it must be wrong
		
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MPA Homie....... you're focusing on the negative. It really doesn't matter if Phil or Fundy, or anyone, else does or doesn't believe it will help them, or thinks there's nothing new, or disagrees with what you say. It was all about what works for you, what will help you. 

Next time I play in a pro-am with Phil, if it gets us the extra shot so we don't lose on count back, he'll be more than happy with it.


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

need_my_wedge said:



			MPA Homie....... you're focusing on the negative. *It really doesn't matter if Phil or Fundy, or anyone, else does or doesn't believe it will help them, or thinks there's nothing new, or disagrees with what you say*. It was all about what works for you, what will help you. 

Next time I play in a pro-am with Phil, if it gets us the extra shot so we don't lose on count back, he'll be more than happy with it.
		
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We're asking for you to tell us why its different, new, why we should go and buy the book. I need help in this part of the game, happy to admit so, but if you read back over the posts from those who attended you are telling us very little along these lines!


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

I fear that in trying to give you a snapshot of the day we are doing the whole process a disservice 
It's impossible to convey the content accurately without referring to the book. And it won't make sense unless you actually buy the book.

If after that it doesn't work, then that's the time to criticise, however criticising at this point without reading the book is a bit like being an unmarried marriage councillor . 

GM are supporting this in a big way, so give it a chance


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I mention anything about something being "wrong" ? 

As Fundy has said this doesn't appear any different regardless of what words are being used in this "New thinking"

Think positive - simple as that 

Hit to a target you feel confident hitting towards - simple 

If you wish to make the game more complicated then away you go - golf is as simple as you can get and it's only a game that life doesn't depend upon 

Hit ball , walk , hit ball again , smile laugh enjoy drink :thup:
		
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If that is your attitude then fair enough.  It's just that just about every top sports person or athlete uses techniques to help them with the mental side of any sport nowadays.  And all this book is is trying to do this in a simple accessible way for the amateur golfer.

As for the quote that golf is as simple as you can get then I'd argue that there are more instances of golfers messing up because of mental issues rather than technical issues than in any other sport.  

How many times have you heard of top footballers suddenly being unable to kick a ball, or top tennis players suddenly not being able to serve?  And how many top golfers have had the yips or have plummeted down or risen up the rankings dramatically? You telling me that none of that is down to the mental side of the game?


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## vkurup (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Is it just me or maybe just how it is coming across from those that attended but is there *actually little new in this*? Replace negative thoughts with positive ones (i assume you were actually given a method as this can be far easier said than done for some of us), try and get the ball past the hole etc are hardly ground breaking ideas or am I missing something.

*Was hoping to read great things about a new approach but doesnt seem to be one*, no doubt Ill try and read the book at the moment but sadly in no rush to do so 

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In some ways I agree.. I understand that there is relatively few 'new' things, but I was hoping that there is a 'process' for getting into a MP-A that I could pick on.  I guess I am an engineer who needs a  process. 

New thing is easier to do with technology (e.g. Speed Pocket) or process (e..g Aimpoint), but a lot more difficult with mental side of thing.  Which is why most on the forum understand but may not agree with the 'aim for the back', '4 feet hole' etc but find it difficult to understand how to get to the MP-A or B or C... etc


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Just me hoping for the holy grail so that I can enjoy the game a lot more again lol. Oh well will read the book and make up my own mind


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Is it just me or maybe just how it is coming across from those that attended but is there actually little new in this? Replace negative thoughts with positive ones (i assume you were actually given a method as this can be far easier said than done for some of us), try and get the ball past the hole etc are hardly ground breaking ideas or am I missing something.

Was hoping to read great things about a new approach but doesnt seem to be one, no doubt Ill try and read the book at the moment but sadly in no rush to do so 

Click to expand...

I think more than one of us said that there was a lot to cover, and it was difficult to put into words  I'm sure that much of it has been said before, maybe in different ways, maybe the same way? Part of the day was about how to affirm the thoughts and apply to every shot, not just think them for two shots and then forget them after you hit two duffers. Even to apply them to everyday life. Essentially it was a day with a positive thinker, the long and the short being that not everyone is a positive thinker, and those that are, may not be able to do it all the time. I don't think you'll get what you want from this thread because it relies on us extracting the salient points and presenting them in the same manner as John O'Keeffe did for us, and that's not going to happen.

Personally, I found a couple of points that made sense, that I am going to try and focus on for myself over the next month or so. Set a mindset and see whether it does or doesn't improve my play. in fact, if I'd thought of it like this on Tuesday, I may well have had a better round.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			We're asking for you to tell us why its different, new, why we should go and buy the book. I need help in this part of the game, happy to admit so, but if you read back over the posts from those who attended you are telling us very little along these lines!
		
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Well we could spend time working out exactly what areas you need help with, is it that you need to bounce back more, do you need to have more of a can do attitude, do you need to clear your head etc etc (as there are a few more areas).  Then once we have done that then we could then go through some simple exercises, techniques and things to think about on the golf course to help you in that specific area.

Or it would be a lot easier to but the book.


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## garyinderry (May 1, 2014)

take the longer club AND miss left or right ?  where are you then?   there are pluses and minuses to it all. 


leavening 30 foot putts is putting big pressure of your putting.  not the best move for those with a nervous disposition. 


always putting chips 5 foot past the hole?   bonkers.   you may hole the odd one doing this but leave yourself many many slippery sliding putts downhill.  not for me !   if my brain is in gear ill try and leave an uphill putt!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			If that is your attitude then fair enough.  It's just that just about every top sports person or athlete uses techniques to help them with the mental side of any sport nowadays.  And all this book is is trying to do this in a simple accessible way for the amateur golfer.

As for the quote that golf is as simple as you can get then I'd argue that there are more instances of golfers messing up because of mental issues rather than technical issues than in any other sport.  

How many times have you heard of top footballers suddenly being unable to kick a ball, or top tennis players suddenly not being able to serve?  And how many top golfers have had the yips or have plummeted down or risen up the rankings dramatically? You telling me that none of that is down to the mental side of the game?
		
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Top sport people etc play the sport to earn themselves a living - they will try anything to give themselves an edge 

Yes I believe Golf is simple - but it's made complicated by golfers "thinking" too much about it.

Why does someone get the yips ? Is that a method problem or mental ? Shanks - mental or physical ? 

For me they would be physical problems. As with footballers etc sports people lose form , they have the natural ability but it doesn't always happen each time they play.

The mental side is all about a person confidence - a very confident player will play to his best ability more of the time IMO where as someone lacking confidence will be the opposite. That IMO could be solve by more "positive thinking" but that's not new


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I believe Golf is simple - but it's made complicated by golfers "thinking" too much about it.
		
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I'd argue that it's not the 'thinking' that is the problem, but thinking the wrong things that is more of an issue.  Which is kind of what the book is about.


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## pokerjoke (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And just like Aimpoint and a load of other stuff, if it doesn't fit in with your way of doing things it must be wrong
		
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Surely though Martin one of these processes must heed results.
For any idea to become successful it has to produce results,
Then others will believe it and possibly embrace it.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue that it's not the 'thinking' that is the problem, but thinking the wrong things that is more of an issue.  Which is kind of what the book is about.
		
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For me the right thing to think is - just hit the thing :thup:


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Top sport people etc play the sport to earn themselves a living - they will try anything to give themselves an edge 

*Yes I believe Golf is simple - but it's made complicated by golfers "thinking" too much about it.*

Why does someone get the yips ? Is that a method problem or mental ? Shanks - mental or physical ? 

For me they would be physical problems. As with footballers etc sports people lose form , they have the natural ability but it doesn't always happen each time they play.

The mental side is all about a person confidence - a very confident player will play to his best ability more of the time IMO where as someone lacking confidence will be the opposite. That IMO could be solve by more "positive thinking" but that's not new
		
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Totally agree Phil, but once you have got to this position its not a case of just being able to stop thinking too much (oh i wish it was). Just be grateful you have an approach where this doesnt affect you and you need to address it. Oh and try and stay that way for as long as you can!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Surely though Martin one of these processes must heed results.
For any idea to become successful it has to produce results,
Then others will believe it and possibly embrace it.
		
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I got in a lot of trouble asking for results last time :mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Totally agree Phil, but once you have got to this position its not a case of just being able to stop thinking too much (oh i wish it was). Just be grateful you have an approach where this doesnt affect you and you need to address it. Oh and try and stay that way for as long as you can!
		
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Have a round with me and I'll make you switch off


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have a round with me and I'll make you switch off 

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haha  that said we must sort a game sometime soon


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me the right thing to think is - just hit the thing :thup:
		
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Kind of serious question then.  If you knew a technique that ensured that you could go into every shot thinking that you were going to hit a great shot the right distance with just the right amount of draw or fade, do you think that would increase your chances of actually doing it compared with your thought of 'just hit it'?


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			We're asking for you to tell us why its different, new, why we should go and buy the book. I need help in this part of the game, happy to admit so, but if you read back over the posts from those who attended you are telling us very little along these lines!
		
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That wasn't a barb aimed at you or Phil, Fundy. I think I answered your question in my last post prior to this one


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Surely though Martin one of these processes must heed results.
For any idea to become successful it has to produce results,
Then others will believe it and possibly embrace it.
		
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Ask the guys who played with me about putting. Tricky greens and my distance putting and line reading with Aimpoint was very good. One three putt on tough greens and several lip outs. I played well and putted great. What more do you need. Even applying the processes from the morning session made me feel more confident (opening drive splits the fairway and approach to six feet). Easy to use me a target but others got something from it too. Asking them for results?

Anyway, that/this is taking it off on a tangent. All I would say in conclusion is that I found it useful. Too much to take in for one session and definitely something that needs working through over *several months* before I think regular improvements will be seen but it was a great day, good company, something new to think about and a chance to play a good course. Whether it moves my handicap or not, that was a good return for my entry alone although I'm sure it will help me think better on the course long term


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			haha  that said we must sort a game sometime soon
		
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Most certainly - also promised to have a game with Alex and would like to see the changes at the Vale 

 have the time off to play in the Roseberry at Ashridge and have entered also :thup:


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## fundy (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most certainly - also promised to have a game with Alex and would like to see the changes at the Vale 

 have the time off to play in the Roseberry at Ashridge and have entered also :thup:
		
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ROseberry at Ashridge same day as our Presidents Cup so probably not going to play it sadly 

Not sure how youre fixed next week but think Al has a bit of time off so may be able to sort a game at some point (prob need to be tues or thur)

Sorry for taking it OT guys


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ask the guys who played with me about putting. Tricky greens and my distance putting and line reading with Aimpoint was very good. One three putt on tough greens and several lip outs. I played well and putted great. What more do you need. Even applying the processes from the morning session made me feel more confident (opening drive splits the fairway and approach to six feet). Easy to use me a target but others got something from it too. Asking them for results?
		
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What Homer '3 Put' Simpson  

I will confirm that the lad did indeed put and indeed play very well.  I can't confirm that this was due to aimpoint, new golf thinking or possibly some lucky heather he had in his pocket.  But he looked OK to me.  Apart from the instances when I out drove him with my 5 year old 3 wood compared to his new driver  


Yes yes I know that was very rare but I'm taking the positives out of the day as I should do.....


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of serious question then.  If you knew a technique that ensured that you could go into every shot thinking that you were going to hit a great shot the right distance with just the right amount of draw or fade, do you think that would increase your chances of actually doing it compared with your thought of 'just hit it'?
		
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Again thinking the process doesn't mean you actually hit the shot - I prefer to focus on the application of the shot and the physical nature of playing the shot as opposed to what I'm thinking. 

It's great thinking " I'm going I hit a great shot here " - but does is guarantee that you will actually hit a great shot ?


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## pokerjoke (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ask the guys who played with me about putting. Tricky greens and my distance putting and line reading with Aimpoint was very good. One three putt on tough greens and several lip outs. I played well and putted great. What more do you need. Even applying the processes from the morning session made me feel more confident (opening drive splits the fairway and approach to six feet). Easy to use me a target but others got something from it too. Asking them for results?

Anyway, that/this is taking it off on a tangent. All I would say in conclusion is that I found it useful. Too much to take in for one session and definitely something that needs working through over *several months* before I think regular improvements will be seen but it was a great day, good company, something new to think about and a chance to play a good course. Whether it moves my handicap or not, that was a good return for my entry alone although I'm sure it will help me think better on the course long term
		
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Good luck with it all.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again thinking the process doesn't mean you actually hit the shot - I prefer to focus on the application of the shot and the physical nature of playing the shot as opposed to what I'm thinking. 
It's great thinking " I'm going I hit a great shot here " - but does is guarantee that you will actually hit a great shot ?
		
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#

Of course there are no guarantees and indeed it was stated that the mental side of the game will not make you do anything you can't do on the range.  But I'd say it's hard to argue with the power of positive thinking and it's always better to go into something with positive thoughts than negative ones.


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## vkurup (May 1, 2014)

I read somewhere (will try and dig it out)..

Avg round of golf = 4.5 hours
Time spent hitting the ball < 3 mins 
Time spent thinking = 4 hours 27 mins


.... golf *is a thinking game*


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			#

Of course there are no guarantees and indeed it was stated that the mental side of the game will not make you do anything you can't do on the range.  But I'd say it's hard to argue with the power of positive thinking and it's always better to go into something with positive thoughts than negative ones.
		
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I agree about positive thinking - but that's not a new way of thinking 

Positive thinking is valid in every walk,of,life whether in sport or work or at home


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

View attachment 10258





Nah, seriously, if it works for you then go for it.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I agree about positive thinking - but that's not a new way of thinking 

Positive thinking is valid in every walk,of,life whether in sport or work or at home
		
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Totally agree.  The book is more than just thinking positive thoughts, but it focusses on specific techniques/ways to apply these and other principals to the game of golf, without getting too deep or heavy.  And you can just dip in or out of the specific areas you most struggle with.

Come on, try it out, it's only the price of 1.5 Pro V1s.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Totally agree.  The book is more than just thinking positive thoughts, but it focusses on specific techniques/ways to apply these and other principals to the game of golf, without getting too deep or heavy.  And you can just dip in or out of the specific areas you most struggle with.

Come on, try it out, it's only the price of 1.5 Pro V1s.

Click to expand...

I'll give it a miss mate 

Surprising as it may seem - I'm a pretty simple guy when it comes to golf

I just hit the ball and then enjoy the company - it's nothing worth worrying about or thinking too much and the score at the end is immaterial


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apart from the instances when I out drove him with my 5 year old 3 wood compared to his new driver  

Click to expand...

I've been on to John about trying to find an MPA for that situation. Best I can come up with was my drive was beaten by a talented golfer who can play the game better than he thinks. That and I'm a girly short hitter


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

TO let this thread run, I've posted up a new thread with my take on the session with John.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'll give it a miss mate 

Surprising as it may seem - I'm a pretty simple guy when it comes to golf

I just hit the ball and then enjoy the company - it's nothing worth worrying about or thinking too much *and the score at the end is immateria*l
		
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Says the man with his exact handicap in his sig


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Says the man with his exact handicap in his sig 

Click to expand...


Cause I was chuffed that I reached cat 1 and everyone else appeared to have handicaps in their sig


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cause I was chuffed that I reached cat 1 and everyone else appeared to have handicaps in their sig 

Click to expand...

So you'd actually like to stay at Cat 1 then if it means so much to you?  So does that mean the score does mean something?  And tell me about your childhood?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you'd actually like to stay at Cat 1 then if it means so much to you?  So does that mean the score does mean something?  And tell me about your childhood?
		
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How much is this costing me


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How much is this costing me 

Click to expand...

Only your dignity and reputation


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## Rooter (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Only your dignity and reputation

Click to expand...

They both went out of the window some time ago! so think of it as free therapy phil!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Only your dignity and reputation

Click to expand...


Nah they are fine - I'm perfectly fine approaching the game the way I do - keeps my enjoyment levels high


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Totally agree.  The book is more than just thinking positive thoughts, but it focusses on specific techniques/ways to apply these and other principals to the game of golf, without getting too deep or heavy.  And you can just dip in or out of the specific areas you most struggle with.

Come on, try it out, it's only the price of 1.5 Pro V1s.

Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			I'll give it a miss mate 

Surprising as it may seem - I'm a pretty simple guy when it comes to golf

I just hit the ball and then enjoy the company - it's nothing worth worrying about or thinking too much and the score at the end is immaterial
		
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There are the sceptics out there who are quite willing to debunk the 'New Thinking' being written about with out so much as looking at the book. From information I've been given during the session we covered 17 pages of a 123 page ebook and trying to do justice to what we learned in a few words is pretty difficult.

To quote John "*This project is meant to trigger NEW thinking.  But, for example, a sceptic could reduce every new piece of food for thought we had  on " shorties"--which should generate new action-- to "never-up never -in" which wont generate new thoughts or new action."*

I hope my write up in the other thread has given the forum an idea of what we learned and what the book is about. To quote John again, "*the ebook has been constructed not as a standard book, but as a series of 123 charts/graphics..designed not to be read cover to cover, but to be scanned , then focus on your priorities; or go from a fault straight through to a fix."*


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## Imurg (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The same thing is applied to chips, say you have a 20 yard chip to the pin and you leave it 5 yards short, you have actually missed the target area by just under 10 yards, on the basis that 4 yards 35 inches past is better than , 5 yards short.

and you have given it a chance to go in and you should have noted how the ball reacted as it went past, giving you a read for the return

What it is doing is subconsciously increasing the target area in your head thus making it easier to hit .
		
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Not convinced by this.
Your target isn't 5 yards past the hole
If you leave a 20 yard chip 5 yards short then you miss by 5 yds....has to be better than saying you're missing by 10 doesn't' it? Or are you aiming to put it nearly 5 yards past..?
Any 20 yard chip that is going to end up nearly 5 yards past the hole hasn't got a cat in Hell's chance of going in unless it smacks the pin squad and drops.
And the read you get from a ball going 15 feet past is useless. The ball is going too fast past the hole to give you any idea of break.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

The links to download are here
www.newgolfthinking.com 
  amazon georiot.co/EqV    (http://georiot.co/EqV)     
    apple georiot.co/10t2    (http://georiot.co/10t2)

The books cost a fiver and there will be more information in "The Open" edition of the magazine where there will be coverage of our day and more information on the contents of the book itself


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Not convinced by this.
Your target isn't 5 yards past the hole
If you leave a 20 yard chip 5 yards short then you miss by 5 yds....has to be better than saying you're missing by 10 doesn't' it? Or are you aiming to put it nearly 5 yards past..?
Any 20 yard chip that is going to end up nearly 5 yards past the hole hasn't got a cat in Hell's chance of going in unless it smacks the pin squad and drops.
And the read you get from a ball going 15 feet past is useless. The ball is going too fast past the hole to give you any idea of break.
		
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Ah young padawan, the idea is that you eliminate shorties and get yourself in the mindset that the ball is going where you want it to

4 yards 35 inches past is better than 5 yards short

Im afraid you are suffering from "Old Golf Thinking" you stick in the mud


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## richart (May 1, 2014)

fundy said:



			Back of the green yardage surely very course dependent, theres only 2 holes on our course where I would prefer to miss long rather than short and with the rough round the greens growing pretty severe already theres several holes where you've next to no chance if you're past the pin
		
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 I agree. I can't think of one hole on our course you would want to be long. Most greens slope from back to front, so if you are long and not in the rubbish, you will have a downhill chip, often needing to carry a small  bank. I always aim for the middle of the green, and would rather have a long uphill putt, than a short downhill chip. Most older courses have bunkers to the side of the greens with room to run a shot between. Few have bunkers long, instead a lot have jungle behind. Course designers liked to put greens tight into the trees, heather etc. New courses with water are of course different, with trouble short, but I try and avoid those ones.


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## Rooter (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Im afraid you are suffering from "Old Golf Thinking" you stick in the mud 

Click to expand...

Phil, I think with Imurg you are facing this:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ah young padawan, the idea is that you eliminate shorties and get yourself in the mindset that the ball is going where you want it to

*4 yards 35 inches past is better than 5 yards short*

Im afraid you are suffering from "Old Golf Thinking" you stick in the mud 

Click to expand...

Unless going past leaves you a downhill putt and being short leaves you an uphill putt - I prefer to be putting 5 yards uphill than 4 yards downhill

Being short isn't always a bad thing


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The links to download are here
www.newgolfthinking.com 
  amazon georiot.co/EqV    (http://georiot.co/EqV)     
    apple georiot.co/10t2    (http://georiot.co/10t2)

The books cost a fiver and there will be more information in "The Open" edition of the magazine where there will be coverage of our day and more information on the contents of the book itself
		
Click to expand...

Should you buy the book, some of the topics covered in this thread and my thread are covered by these sections:-


Mindsets pages 65, 66..part of CAN-DO
Mental Position A , 70..part of CAN-DO
Self fulfilling circle 67-69  part of CAN-DO
Untry   83  part of RESULTS-DRIVEN
Result/story 82 part of RESULTS-DRIVEN
stop shorties 98-100 103 part of CLEAR-HEADED
best shot at a time 49,50 part of RISE-TO_OCCASION
needle eye 59  part of RISE-TO_OCCASION
points on table 97, 111 Part of FRESHEN-UP


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless going past leaves you a downhill putt and being short leaves you an uphill putt - I prefer to be putting 5 yards uphill than 4 yards downhill

Being short isn't always a bad thing
		
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doh. well obviously , thats why he said that in 80% of occasions past is better than short. the other 20% are covered by  where its not a good idea to be long.

There are always exceptions to every rule


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## Imurg (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			4 yards 35 inches past is better than 5 yards short
		
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But, for the sake of an inch, you still have a 15 footer..but you've missed by 5 instead of 10 yards - which is better for confidence?

Looking forward to no "shorties" tomorrow Master:rofl:


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

Imurg said:



			But, for the sake of an inch, you still have a 15 footer..but you've missed by 5 instead of 10 yards - which is better for confidence?

Looking forward to no "shorties" tomorrow Master:rofl:
		
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Luddite,  Dont want any of your "negative Waves maaan"


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## Imurg (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Luddite,  Dont want any of your "negative Waves maaan"
		
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Tough....:ears:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			doh. well obviously , thats why he said that in 80% of occasions past is better than short. the other 20% are covered by  where its not a good idea to be long.

There are always exceptions to every rule
		
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Well again if you go past the hole a lot of the holes at our place you will be faced with a downhill putt - over 50% plus a few more dependant on pin positions 

Dukes also has a lot of greens sloping from back to front - as does Marquess - Duchess is a bit more even 

In fact thinking about it a lot of clubs have a lot of greens sloping back to front. 

So you will be faced most of the time with downhill putts if you go past the flag. 

80% seems far to high


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

So is 4 yards 35 inches short better than 5 yards long? 

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this. You hit a bad shot, just forget it and think about the next one. 
What's the point in clutering your mind with "oh that was a C", "I'll get an A next time". Is the game not tricky enough without all that floating about your mind. 

If I couldn't tell myself my next shot is going to be a belter without the help of a book I'd pack the game in tbh. 

Nothing against anyone trying to peddle their wares, more power to them, but it seems from what I have read so far that folks would be buying a book for the sake of buying it. Telling you to think about your club choice and where to aim isn't exactly a new way of thinking to me, more like common sense.


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## SaintHacker (May 1, 2014)

c1973 said:



			So is 4 yards 35 inches short better than 5 yards long? 

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this. You hit a bad shot, just forget it and think about the next one. 
What's the point in clutering your mind with "oh that was a C", "I'll get an A next time". Is the game not tricky enough without all that floating about your mind. 

If I couldn't tell myself my next shot is going to be a belter without the help of a book I'd pack the game in tbh. 

Nothing against anyone trying to peddle their wares, more power to them, but it seems from what I have read so far that folks would be buying a book for the sake of buying it. Telling you to think about your club choice and where to aim isn't exactly a new way of thinking to me, more like common sense.
		
Click to expand...

Genuine question. Have you read through the thread or just jumped on the end of it?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well again if you go past the hole a lot of the holes at our place you will be faced with a downhill putt - over 50% plus a few more dependant on pin positions 

Dukes also has a lot of greens sloping from back to front - as does Marquess - Duchess is a bit more even 

In fact thinking about it a lot of clubs have a lot of greens sloping back to front. 

So you will be faced most of the time with downhill putts if you go past the flag. 

80% seems far to high
		
Click to expand...

LP you are focusing on one particular point from a 124 page book

We were given only 2 tactical practical things to try ( aim for back of green 80% and long is better than short in most cases) everything else was to do with generating a positive mindset, maintaining that mindset and recognising when it starts to slip and how to recover,

There are 7 key areas in the book which will help all golfers, some will help at once, others will take a bit longer.

it isnt something we can explain in a snapshot, so either read the book or wait for the magazine feature which will have more info, but please dont pedantically diss something you havnt seen or tried.


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

c1973 said:



			So is 4 yards 35 inches short better than 5 yards long? 

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this. You hit a bad shot, just forget it and think about the next one. 
What's the point in clutering your mind with "oh that was a C", "I'll get an A next time". Is the game not tricky enough without all that floating about your mind. 

If I couldn't tell myself my next shot is going to be a belter without the help of a book I'd pack the game in tbh. 

Nothing against anyone trying to peddle their wares, more power to them, but it seems from what I have read so far that folks would be buying a book for the sake of buying it. Telling you to think about your club choice and where to aim isn't exactly a new way of thinking to me, more like common sense.
		
Click to expand...

As written previously in this thread and in the other one, trying to explain will be hard enough without actually looking at the book, trying to explain to sceptics will be damn near impossible as their minds are already made up and they are not prepared to do something different.

The C, I, M & W bit is a way to get you to remember good shots so that you stay in MPA and remain focused during your round. No one is suggesting it is a quick fix, but over time it will help. The first day you sat in a car, wasn't the day you passed you test, you had to go through a learning process, this is the same, it is about teaching you a new way to think about golf.


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			Genuine question. Have you read through the thread or just jumped on the end of it?
		
Click to expand...

I've read through it and the other one, but I'll be honest I've forgotten half of what I've read. I stand by my opinion that it's hocus pocus though. Thinking positively and making correct decisions on the course ain't difficult, executing the shot can be and that's physical, not mental.

Like I say though, if you're happy to do it and it works for you, go for it. Who am I to say your wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			LP you are focusing on one particular point from a 124 page book

We were given only 2 tactical practical things to try (* aim for back of green 80% and long is better than short in most cases*) everything else was to do with generating a positive mindset, maintaining that mindset and recognising when it starts to slip and how to recover,

There are 7 key areas in the book which will help all golfers, some will help at once, others will take a bit longer.

it isnt something we can explain in a snapshot, so either read the book or wait for the magazine feature which will have more info, but please dont pedantically diss something you havnt seen or tried.
		
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And this point is what I'm posting in regards - I don't think long is better at all and certainly not in most cases - especially on the courses I seem to play 

I thought a lot greens slopped from back to front on a lot of courses ?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

I'm not going to get drawn in to a detailed discussion on one point of a book you havnt read and therefore don't know the context
You've had your say, now let's move on


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## Khamelion (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And this point is what I'm posting in regards - I don't think long is better at all and certainly not in most cases - especially on the courses I seem to play 

I thought a lot greens slopped from back to front on a lot of courses ?
		
Click to expand...

My home course the greens are fairly level, albeit with the odd undulation, the grove was the same, level greens with undulations, I can't recall a course where the green has had a distinct back to front slope. Obviously all courses are different and some will and some won't have sloping greens. 

But that written and in context with the NGT shorties topic, 80% to 95% of the time it would be better to club up to be long then it is to leave yourself short. For most of us average golfers hitting 150yds dot on with a 7 iron isn't always going to happen, yes you may flush it every now and then, but for most it will be an average hit that will drop short, so why not club up and if you flush the 6 iron and it goes long, kudos, you've gone past the flag and are on the green, you if hit it normally, you drop the ball on the green, hey you're still putting and you've missed the hazards at the front.

But as PTF writes above, trying to explain the context of only one part of a very good book, to someone who is reluctant to read the book is going to be difficult. Should you decide to look at the book this is the section we're covering stop shorties 98-100 103 part of CLEAR-HEADED.


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2014)

CMAC said:



			A poll to see how many times you have gone over the back off the green in your last 4 rounds would be useful.

My fig would prob be one!

Famous pro maybe Hunter Mahan (cant remember but I posted awhile back) said take the club that gets you to the back of the green and swing easier, result, more pin high shots.
		
Click to expand...

Mine would be 2 - except for a thin! And 1 of those was because I didn't believe the distance!

Tom Watson was an advocate of adding 10% to the actual distance and hitting a relaxed shot! 
Also of trying to land the ball on the top of the flagstick and, surprise, surprise - trying to hit the ball to the back of the green!
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/mental-game/gd0608watson 

But I hope the discussion at The Grove didn't go on like this self-evident (to me) 'rule' has!


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Mine would be 2 - except for a thin! And 1 of those was because I didn't believe the distance!

Tom Watson was an advocate of adding 10% to the actual distance and hitting a relaxed shot! 
Also of trying to land the ball on the top of the flagstick and,* surprise, surprise - trying to hit the ball to the back of the green!*
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/mental-game/gd0608watson 

But I hope the discussion at The Grove didn't go on like this self-evident (to me) 'rule' has!
		
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He also said "sometimes thinking too much can destroy your momentum".


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## garyinderry (May 1, 2014)

one dry week and all this goes out the window!


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2014)

c1973 said:



			He also said "sometimes thinking too much can destroy your momentum".

Click to expand...

That was the cause of the thin!

It all depends on what the thinking is - and it should always be framed positively, not negatively!

I could relate a long, and probably boring, story about Positive Oriented Thinking from a Tennis Player I once 'housed' (billeted) for a tournament. It certainly worked for her (Katrina Adams) - she got to World #5 in Doubles (Wimbledon Semi Finalist) - and she would have won that tournament if she hadn't put her back out in the warm-up for the Final.


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## c1973 (May 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That was the cause of the thin!

It all depends on what the thinking is - and it should always be framed positively, not negatively!
*
I could relate a long, and probably boring, story about Positive Oriented Thinking from a Tennis Player I once 'housed' (*billeted) for a tournament. It certainly worked for her (Katrina Adams) - she got to World #5 in Doubles (Wimbledon Semi Finalist) - and she would have won that tournament if she hadn't put her back out in the warm-up for the Final.
		
Click to expand...

Please do. 

It's funny how trying to keep things simple usually ends up anything but simple.


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## PieMan (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To say being positive and have good thoughts is too simplistic as I think all those that attended would agree. It has more to do with changing thought patterns and adopting better coping mechanisms for when things aren't going to plan as well as the areas already covered by others.
		
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Yes totally agree.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			dont pedantically diss something you havnt seen or tried.
		
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Waste of time. Why let a good argument get in the way of something that might just help some golfers improver THEIR game


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## JezzE (May 1, 2014)

c1973 said:



			So is 4 yards 35 inches short better than 5 yards long? 

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this. You hit a bad shot, just forget it and think about the next one. 
What's the point in clutering your mind with "oh that was a C", "I'll get an A next time". Is the game not tricky enough without all that floating about your mind. 

If I couldn't tell myself my next shot is going to be a belter without the help of a book I'd pack the game in tbh. 

Nothing against anyone trying to peddle their wares, more power to them, but it seems from what I have read so far that folks would be buying a book for the sake of buying it. Telling you to think about your club choice and where to aim isn't exactly a new way of thinking to me, more like common sense.
		
Click to expand...

And it's a well-known fact that all golfers apply common-sense 100% on every shot...


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## JezzE (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And this point is what I'm posting in regards - I don't think long is better at all and certainly not in most cases - especially on the courses I seem to play 

I thought a lot greens slopped from back to front on a lot of courses ?
		
Click to expand...

Go out on your next round and observe how many shots most golfers waste through being short of the pin or indeed green compared to how many they waste from being pin-high or beyond.

And let's not get too carried away by how many greens slope from back to front and how steeply - we're not generally talking about ski-runs...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Go out on your next round and observe how many shot most golfers waste through being short of the pin or indeed green compared to how many they waste from being pin-high or beyond.

And let's not get too carried away by how many greens slope from back to front and how steeply - we're not generally talking about ski-runs...
		
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Jezz - is John a qualified psycologist ? Trying to find some info on him on the web ?

Just see n there is something on slow play which has massively perked up my interest  - did he talk about that ?


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## JezzE (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Jezz - is John a qualified psycologist ? Trying to find some info on him on the web ?
		
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No he's not and he doesn't like the word psychology...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			No he's not and he doesn't like the word psychology...
		
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Edited my post - did he talk about the slow play aspect ?

Sorry another edit - does he play golf ?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Edited my post - did he talk about the slow play aspect ?
		
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no but its covered in the book


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## JezzE (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Edited my post - did he talk about the slow play aspect ?

Sorry another edit - does he play golf ?
		
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He did talk about the slow play aspect in passing, with one of the questions that everyone rated themselves on being how well or otherwise you managed the frustrations of slow play and other distractions.

And yes, he does play, off single figures I believe


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## Liverpoolphil (May 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			He did talk about the slow play aspect in passing, with one of the questions that everyone rated themselves on being how well or otherwise you managed the frustrations of slow play and other distractions.

And yes, he does play, off single figures I believe
		
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Ok cheers - i have purchased the book and will give it a read :thup:


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## 3565 (May 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Jezz - is John a qualified psycologist ? Trying to find some info on him on the web ?

Just see n there is something on slow play which has massively perked up my interest  - did he talk about that ?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah you'll buy the book now, and skip the new way of thinking, to the lets put the new Nike Usain Bolt golf go faster shoes on for you. :rofl:


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## SGC001 (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've been on to John about trying to find an MPA for that situation. Best I can come up with was my drive was beaten by a talented golfer who can play the game better than he thinks. That and I'm a girly short hitter
		
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There is a rumour Nicklaus would intentionally play less club off the tee in some match play instances to be allowed to play his shot in first and put the pressure on. Could adapt that for strokeplay, hit it better not further as golf is a target game, distance can help but isn't the aim of the game. On the other hand what has someone else's shot got to do with your play anyway?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			There is a rumour Nicklaus would intentionally play less club off the tee in some match play instances to be allowed to play his shot in first and put the pressure on. Could adapt that for strokeplay, hit it better not further as golf is a target game, distance can help but isn't the aim of the game. On the other hand what has someone else's shot got to do with your play anyway?
		
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Nope. He creams the three wood miles and I am a girly short hitter with my driver. I knew many of the long par 4's (420+ yards) were out of my reach so decent lay up, pitch on and bogey (two points with a shot) is your friend


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nope. He creams the three wood miles and I am a girly short hitter with my driver. I knew many of the long par 4's (420+ yards) were out of my reach so decent lay up, pitch on and bogey (two points with a shot) is your friend
		
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And as the saying goes, drive for show........


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## 3565 (May 1, 2014)

I think this club to the back of the green is dependant on each individual's skill level.  For a mid to high hc golfer I think what John is saying is that if you club to the back and you do mis hit it, chances are you will have enough club to be pin high as opposed to the club that you mis hit to only reach the pin. If you do manage to hit the Sunday best and is at the back, then be like LP and enjoy iiiiiiiiitttttt.

if however your single to low hc then your skill and ability to put a good solid swing and strike will determine your club selection, pin position, slope of green and which would give me the easiest putt, ie if it slopes back to front, single planer, then it's best to be 20ft short and 30 degrees to the hole then 10ft away pin high and 90 degrees to the hole. 

I hope those who attended will gain something out of it, but it will be a slow process as it's a change of how you approach your game, it's better to try then not to, and those who don't will resist.


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## Region3 (May 2, 2014)

I know it's not intended to be the focus of the thread, but every time one of these "back of the green" discussions crops up I go over recent rounds in my head and total fats aside, I don't think I've ever been short significantly more than I've been long. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I'm tempted to blow a fiver on the book though if it can show me how to ignore someone who constantly bemoans his luck and his game the whole way round the course. I don't intend to let it affect me but over 4 hours it can end up wearing me down.


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Go out on your next round and observe how many shots most golfers waste through being short of the pin or indeed green compared to how many they waste from being pin-high or beyond.

And let's not get too carried away by how many greens slope from back to front and how steeply - we're not generally talking about ski-runs...
		
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 If you watch the Pros, how many times do they go over a green and struggle to get down in two. A lot more than when they miss short I bet. A lot of courses don't have bunkers at the back, so you tend to finish in thick grass or worse.

I am not talking about amateurs that tend to miss hit most shots and come up short, but players that hit the ball well. Would a 15 handicapper be better off putting from 30 feet short of the pin, or chipping from 5 yards over the back of a green. I know which I would rather do at my Club, and a lot of courses I have played over the years. Just my opinion of course.


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Go out on your next round and observe how many shots most golfers waste through being short of the pin or indeed green compared to how many they waste from being pin-high or beyond.
		
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 Surely that is due to not hitting the ball out of the screws. Miss hits generally come up short, unless it is a topped wedge. Should you play a club that when you don't quite catch it finishes pin high, but when you cream it you fly the green by 20 yards ?


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			Surely that is due to not hitting the ball out of the screws. Miss hits generally come up short, unless it is a topped wedge. Should you play a club that when you don't quite catch it finishes pin high, but when you cream it you fly the green by 20 yards ?
		
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Who the heck stated flying the green by 20 yards!

As I understand it, it's... How far is it to the back of the green? What club will go that far when i hit it perfectly? That's the club to use then! If I hit it perfectly, I'm at the back of the green; if I hit it slightly less than perfectly; I'm pin high; if I hit it a little poorly, I'm still on the Green - happy days!

I can't see what all the fuss is about! It's simple common-sense - something most Golfers (me included) leave in their normal shoes!


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## CMAC (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			No he's not and he doesn't like the word psychology...
		
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Why not?


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## garyinderry (May 2, 2014)

Catch that extra club approach thin and you are well out the back.

Where people mis-club and come up short, the same can happen out the other end. Fail to feel that wee breeze or the green below you and you are out the back.

How can someone put a ball consistantly in a 25foot window but fail to land it within 10yards either side of target.


Know how far you hit each club and you wont have to allow for this.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			Catch that extra club approach thin and you are well out the back.

Where people mis-club and come up short, the same can happen out the other end. Fail to feel that wee breeze or the green below you and you are out the back.

How can someone put a ball consistantly in a 25foot window but fail to land it within 10yards either side of target.

*
Know how far you hit each club and you wont have to allow for this*.
		
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This 

I remember a pro saying once that the most commonly hit shot for an AM is normally the "fat" so maybe thats what aiming behind the pin is trying to compensate for ?

But would have thought the better advice would be to hit the club that will get you there and hit it smoothly as opposed to hitting a club less and trying to "smack the spots" of the ball ?


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## G_Mulligan (May 2, 2014)

c1973 said:



			I've read through it and the other one, but I'll be honest I've forgotten half of what I've read. I stand by my opinion that it's hocus pocus though. *Thinking positively and making correct decisions on the course ain't difficult, executing the shot can be and that's physical, not mental*.

Like I say though, if you're happy to do it and it works for you, go for it. Who am I to say your wrong. 

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When under even moderate pressure making good decisions can suddenly go out of the window. Having a simple reliable technique for recognising those situations and re-focusing the mind to make good decisions can be hugely beneficial. Every shot, actually every physical action you will ever make starts in the mind so executing the shot is reliant on a good mental processes. Poor thinking = poor actions and there is no getting away from that.

I am finding it quite amusing that a few people have said this kind of thinking clutters the mind and makes for poor golf and yet are picking apart in minute detail one very simple technique. You are making it as complicated as it possibly can be, just go out and give it a try. Don't over think it, don't over analyse every possible situation before they happen. Just go out and give it a go.


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## Hacker Khan (May 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Who the heck stated flying the green by 20 yards!

As I understand it, it's... How far is it to the back of the green? What club will go that far when i hit it perfectly? That's the club to use then! If I hit it perfectly, I'm at the back of the green; if I hit it slightly less than perfectly; I'm pin high; if I hit it a little poorly, I'm still on the Green - happy days!

I can't see what all the fuss is about! It's simple common-sense - something most Golfers (me included) leave in their normal shoes!
		
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Correct.  When most golfers say they hit their 7 iron 150 yards what they really mean is that if they middle it out of the screws it will go 150 yards.  Very occasionally they may get 155 out of it, but a lot more often they get less than 150.  So aiming at the back if the back of the green is 150/155 yards away means that there is a much higher chance that their ball will still be on the green and have a chance of going in the hole or being close.  And for the 10% of the time the flag is a yard from the back of the green or the green slopes downhill after the flag or there is a lake at the back of the green then use an 8 iron.

And as I and others have stated, this hitting to the back is 1 little bit of one section in the book.  It may well be true that this is not a problem for you, so if not then don't worry about it but get some help in other areas.


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Who the heck stated flying the green by 20 yards!

As I understand it, it's... How far is it to the back of the green? What club will go that far when i hit it perfectly? That's the club to use then! If I hit it perfectly, I'm at the back of the green; if I hit it slightly less than perfectly; I'm pin high; if I hit it a little poorly, I'm still on the Green - happy days!

I can't see what all the fuss is about! It's simple common-sense - something most Golfers (me included) leave in their normal shoes!
		
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 I was talking about average golfers, not great ball strikers like you. A 20 handicapper generally comes up short due to miss hits , not due to taking the wrong club. Most golfers with a gps know the exact distance to the pin, and also how far they hit there clubs. Unfortunately say with a 5 iron they do not flush it every time. Should they play for the miss hit or the flushed one ? I personally think you are better being half a club short, rather than half a club long. Look at the problems Pro's get into with a flyer. Long is not generally good on a golf course, well definitely not on mine. I can putt from 20 yards short of our greens, but roll off the back, and it will be a devil of a chip often out of heather.

You need to take into account the dangers on a course, rather than just club up all the time.


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## Khamelion (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			I was talking about average golfers, not great ball strikers like you. A 20 handicapper generally comes up short due to miss hits , not due to taking the wrong club. Most golfers with a gps know the exact distance to the pin, and also how far they hit there clubs. Unfortunately say with a 5 iron they do not flush it every time. Should they play for the miss hit or the flushed one ? I personally think you are better being half a club short, rather than half a club long. Look at the problems Pro's get into with a flyer. Long is not generally good on a golf course, well definitely not on mine. I can putt from 20 yards short of our greens, but roll off the back, and it will be a devil of a chip often out of heather.

You need to take into account the dangers on a course, rather than just club up all the time.
		
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It can depend on the course you are playing, the courses the pros play generally have the flag tucked away somewhere where going long is not really an option, but then most pros can take a nice divot and either check the ball or get it to spin back. 

Us poor novice and amateur hackers will generally come up short, as posted somewhere above, will be due to poor form or vanity, so the idea for aiming for the back of the green is a good choice. What people are forgetting is that the 8 of us who went to the Grove have said that hitting he back of the green is a 80% to 95% option not 100% as there will be occasions where going for the back will just not be viable.

Also people are getting hung up and picking fault with one area of many from the book, the best thing I can suggest is that for a fiver people buy the book and then make judgement on what they read rather than dismiss as bunkum what they have read in this thread.


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## need_my_wedge (May 2, 2014)

One thought to add to this thread, the book also carries the co-author Dennis Pugh, a fairly well respected coach in the professional game. So whilst the thoughts discussed so far may not resonate with everyone, having Dennis' backing should add a level of credibility to the ideas.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 2, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Also people are getting hung up and picking fault with one area of many from the book, the best thing I can suggest is that for a fiver people buy the book and then make judgement on what they read rather than dismiss as bunkum what they have read in this thread.
		
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Well said but where is the fun for all the nasayers on here in that? In my own opinion, I think everyone on the day has now posted what they got out of the initial process. Whether people decide to try any of these for themselves, especially aiming for the back (bet a few will whether or not they admit it on here) is down to them. I know I'll be looking form MPA all the way round and going longer. I need to read about letting myself dwell on stuff tonight as its a comp tomorrow and don't want that one bad shot to be a catalyst. Othe rthan that like everything else I'm doing, I'm happy to plough my own furrow, take the stuff I need from the book and see where it takes me


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

Jack Nicklaus aimed for the middle of a green. If the flag was on the right he would try and fade it in, and on the left draw it in. Gave him the biggest margin of error. 

OK not many can do that, but the idea of aiming for the middle of the green seems to me a good idea. If you are a little long you will be on the back, little short front, and a bit of margin either side. Don't short side yourself. If you aim for the back of the green, you are fine if you hit it perfect distance, and a bit short, but a bit long and you are not putting. Two out of three doesn't seem that good to me.


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## User20205 (May 2, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			It can depend on the course you are playing, the courses the pros play generally have the flag tucked away somewhere where going long is not really an option, but then most pros can take a nice divot and either check the ball or get it to spin back. 

Us poor novice and amateur hackers will generally come up short, as posted somewhere above, will be due to poor form or vanity, so the idea for aiming for the back of the green is a good choice. What people are forgetting is that the 8 of us who went to the Grove have said that hitting he back of the green is a 80% to 95% option not 100% as there will be occasions where going for the back will just not be viable.

Also people are getting hung up and picking fault with one area of many from the book, the best thing I can suggest is that for a fiver people buy the book and then make judgement on what they read rather than dismiss as bunkum what they have read in this thread.
		
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I'm normally first in the queue to rubbish this kind of thing but I feel strangely drawn to this, probably because I'm chopping it around at the moment 

Is it only available on amazon/kindle? Can I get it in proper book form or on my iPad??


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## Rooter (May 2, 2014)

therod said:



			Is it only available on amazon/kindle? Can I get it in proper book form or on my iPad??
		
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Download the ibooks app, and you can buy it from apple bookstore. I have it on my iphone so i can read on the train etc.


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## Khamelion (May 2, 2014)

therod said:



			I'm normally first in the queue to rubbish this kind of thing but I feel strangely drawn to this, probably because I'm chopping it around at the moment 

Is it only available on amazon/kindle? Can I get it in proper book form or on my iPad??
		
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Yup downloaded from iBooks to my iPad.


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## c1973 (May 2, 2014)

The part about 'leaving shorties' as the most common miss on approach shots, is this quantifiable at all? I'm not having a pop here, it's just that my misses tend to be varied. I'll concede that going through the green is extremely rare, but I do miss just as many to the side.

My point is, if like me, you miss to the side just as often as being short then aiming at the back isn't going to solve that. 

If it's not really backed up statistically (that most people leave it short) then is it not possible you are actually gaining an additional worry that wasn't there in the first place?  
And should the advice not be 'learn your genuine yardages' and not 'aim to the back'.

NB: I'm genuinely not having a go at anyone trying this out, I'm a great believer in doing what works for you and would encourage people to think that way too. :thup: I'm just struggling to square what I have read (on here and the external site) with my own thoughts on the subjects mentioned.

Also, I don't consider myself to be a naysayer just because I,  A) disagree with or B) don't quite grasp other opinions.


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2014)

therod said:



			I'm normally first in the queue to rubbish this kind of thing but I feel strangely drawn to this, probably because I'm chopping it around at the moment 

Is it only available on amazon/kindle? Can I get it in proper book form or on my iPad??
		
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I downloaded it onto my Kindle yesterday. Its not the easiest to read on there but you soon get the hang.

I got into this sort of stuff many years ago, mid 80's I think, when reading a series of articles by Alan Fine in either GM or GW. There's not a lot new in what he proposes, and I do think some of what he writes is a little wooly, but I do like the structure he brings to it.


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## User20205 (May 2, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I downloaded it onto my Kindle yesterday. Its not the easiest to read on there but you soon get the hang.

I got into this sort of stuff many years ago, mid 80's I think, when reading a series of articles by Alan Fine in either GM or GW. There's not a lot new in what he proposes, and I do think some of what he writes is a little wooly, but I do like the structure he brings to it.
		
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Khamelion said:



			Yup downloaded from iBooks to my iPad.
		
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Rooter said:



			Download the ibooks app, and you can buy it from apple bookstore. I have it on my iphone so i can read on the train etc.
		
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Cheers gents:thup:

I've downloaded a sample, I'm not spending Â£5.49 on the recommendation from some of the basket cases on here 

I will digest, and report back....out


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2014)

therod said:



			Cheers gents:thup:

I've downloaded a sample, I'm not spending Â£5.49 on the recommendation from some of the basket cases on here 

I will digest, and report back....out

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With all due respect Rod, I think that this is a beginners course.. You may need the advanced edition, or maybe the Phd accompaniment.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 2, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			With all due respect Rod, I think that this is a beginners course.. You may need the advanced edition, or maybe the Phd accompaniment. 

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Nah.....he'll be fine with the beginners version


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## User20205 (May 2, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			With all due respect Rod, I think that this is a beginners course.. You may need the advanced edition, or maybe the Phd accompaniment. 

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drive4show said:



			Nah.....he'll be fine with the beginners version  

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Right I've read the contents, already I'm viewing the world in a different way, the colours seem more vivid and bright. This book is amazing!!!

Either that or the mushroom omelette I had for lunch wasn't as described !!


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			If you watch the Pros, how many times do they go over a green and struggle to get down in two. A lot more than when they miss short I bet. A lot of courses don't have bunkers at the back, so you tend to finish in thick grass or worse.

I am not talking about amateurs that tend to miss hit most shots and come up short, but players that hit the ball well. Would a 15 handicapper be better off putting from 30 feet short of the pin, or chipping from 5 yards over the back of a green. I know which I would rather do at my Club, and a lot of courses I have played over the years. Just my opinion of course.
		
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As others have said, this is only one element of it all, but from my experience of golf far more golfers' well-struck shots finish short of the flag than long...


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Who the heck stated flying the green by 20 yards!

As I understand it, it's... How far is it to the back of the green? What club will go that far when i hit it perfectly? That's the club to use then! If I hit it perfectly, I'm at the back of the green; if I hit it slightly less than perfectly; I'm pin high; if I hit it a little poorly, I'm still on the Green - happy days!

I can't see what all the fuss is about! It's simple common-sense - something most Golfers (me included) leave in their normal shoes!
		
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Perectly summed up - no-one ever suggested taking the club that sends you 20 yards through the back...


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			Surely that is due to not hitting the ball out of the screws. Miss hits generally come up short, unless it is a topped wedge. Should you play a club that when you don't quite catch it finishes pin high, but when you cream it you fly the green by 20 yards ?
		
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As a little experiment this weekend, why don't you count the number of shots that your playing partners seemingly strike well which finish short of the flag and the number that finish long? I would be absolutely amazed if the former didn't outscore the latter by some margin unless you play with a very different breed of golfer to the ones I've played with for the last 30 or so years...


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			A 20 handicapper generally comes up short due to miss hits , not due to taking the wrong club
		
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This is just not true...


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## Martin70 (May 2, 2014)

therod said:



			I've downloaded a sample, I'm not spending Â£5.49 on the recommendation from some of the basket cases on here 

Click to expand...


:lol:


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			As a little experiment this weekend, why don't you count the number of shots that your playing partners seemingly strike well which finish short of the flag and the number that finish long? I would be absolutely amazed if the former didn't outscore the latter by some margin unless you play with a very different breed of golfer to the ones I've played with for the last 30 or so years...
		
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Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being judgmental of others, I will happily put my hand up and say I miss considerably more shots short than long...


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2014)

need_my_wedge said:



			One thought to add to this thread, *the book also carries the co-author Dennis Pugh*, a fairly well respected coach in the professional game. So whilst the thoughts discussed so far may not resonate with everyone, having Dennis' backing should add a level of credibility to the ideas.
		
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That'll probably mean he's taking a 'healthy whack' out of takings for reviewing it and maybe changing a word or two!

DP makes excellent commercial use of his name and reputation! Something I don't begrudge him at all!


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			This is just not true...
		
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 That is one of the strangest comments I have read on here. 

So a 20 handicapper generally hits the ball perfectly towards a green , but just under clubs most of the time. Couldn't be that they have the right club and just don't hit it that well. I tend to miss greens, come up short through a poor strike rather than taking the wrong club, but I must be a one off.:mmm:


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



 That is one of the strangest comments I have read on here. 

So a 20 handicapper generally hits the ball perfectly towards a green , but just under clubs most of the time. Couldn't be that they have the right club and just don't hit it that well. I tend to miss greens, come up short through a poor strike rather than taking the wrong club, but I must be a one off.:mmm:
		
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You appear to be completely misinterpreting what I said... don't recall saying high handicappers generally hit the ball perfectly :mmm: I'm not saying it's all of one and none of other as it's a combination of the two, but I would say most high handicappers I play with miss at least as many greens short through ambitious clubbing as through poor striking


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			You appear to be completely misinterpreting what I said... don't recall saying high handicappers generally hit the ball perfectly :mmm: I'm not saying it's all of one and none of other as it's a combination of the two, but I would say most high handicappers I play with miss at least as many greens short through ambitious clubbing as through poor striking
		
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 No not misinterpreting at all. You obviously think most shots by high handicappers are left short by under clubbing and I think it is by miss hitting. We a must play with different types of high handicappers.


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			No not misinterpreting at all. You obviously think most shots by high handicappers are left short by under clubbing and I think it is by miss hitting. We a must play with different types of high handicappers.

Click to expand...

Misinterpreting bit was more to do with your comments about high handicappers generally hitting the ball perfectly... Could you lend me one of your high-handicappers for my next fourball comp by the way so we don't give too many holes away needlessly with perfect strikes that come up a club or two short


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## beck9965 (May 2, 2014)

Changing the topic slightly, did anyone else get a text from John O'Keeffe regarding their email address?


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## Rooter (May 2, 2014)

beck9965 said:



			Changing the topic slightly, did anyone else get a text from John O'Keeffe regarding their email address?
		
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Shhh! search for book panel thread started by me Agent Orange.


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Misinterpreting bit was more to do with your comments about high handicappers generally hitting the ball perfectly... Could you lend me one of your high-handicappers for my next fourball comp by the way so we don't give too many holes away needlessly with perfect strikes that come up a club or two short 

Click to expand...

 It is not too difficult to work out how far you hit each club, and use a gps to work out how far you need to hit it. Uphill add a bit, downhill take a bit off. Adjust for wind.  I still don't buy into all these golfers with a half decent brain (?), continually coming up one or two clubs short with a decent strike. 150 yards to the pin, I hit my 7 iron that distance, so I will take a nine iron.

Happy to agree to disagree.:thup::cheers:


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## JezzE (May 2, 2014)

richart said:



			It is not too difficult to work out how far you hit each club, and use a gps to work out how far you need to hit it. Uphill add a bit, downhill take a bit off. Adjust for wind.  I still don't buy into all these golfers with a half decent brain (?), continually coming up one or two clubs short with a decent strike. 150 yards to the pin, I hit my 7 iron that distance, so I will take a nine iron.

Happy to agree to disagree.:thup::cheers:
		
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Happy to agree to you agreeing to disagree.:thup::cheers:

Perhaps you're just an old-hand at new golf thinking and the application of common sense! But there are definitely people out there who think they hit it further than they actually do, and despite the evidence of their own eyes persistently come up short even when striking it decently...


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## richart (May 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Happy to agree to you agreeing to disagree.:thup::cheers: 

Perhaps you're just an old-hand at new golf thinking and the application of common sense! But there are definitely people out there who think they hit it further than they actually do, and despite the evidence of their own eyes persistently come up short even when striking it decently...
		
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Cheeky.

That is the point really. Yes there are people that think they hit it further than they do. Just between you and me, there are a few on this forum. There are a lot of golfers that know how far they hit it, but just don't have the skills to do it consistently, me definitely included. 

Have a good weekend Jezz, and may all you approach shots be at least pin high.


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## upsidedown (May 2, 2014)

c1973 said:



			The part about 'leaving shorties' as the most common miss on approach shots, is this quantifiable at all? I'm not having a pop here, it's just that my misses tend to be varied. I'll concede that going through the green is extremely rare, but I do miss just as many to the side.

My point is, if like me, you miss to the side just as often as being short then aiming at the back isn't going to solve that. 

If it's not really backed up statistically (that most people leave it short) then is it not possible you are actually gaining an additional worry that wasn't there in the first place?  
And should the advice not be 'learn your genuine yardages' and not 'aim to the back'.

NB: I'm genuinely not having a go at anyone trying this out, I'm a great believer in doing what works for you and would encourage people to think that way too. :thup: I'm just struggling to square what I have read (on here and the external site) with my own thoughts on the subjects mentioned.

Also, I don't consider myself to be a naysayer just because I,  A) disagree with or B) don't quite grasp other opinions.
		
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51% of my misses are shorties !!

The majority I put down to under estimating wind strength both into and following.


Went past the pin 3 times today , pin high 7 times and rest short.


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