# Are you right wing?



## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2018)

An observation on another thread suggests that this forum is predominantly right wing. Is it? Without doubt there's some very strong characters but does that make them right wing or left wing? Some appear to perceive that if someone is strong on law and order they must be right wing. Does that mean Labour and LibDems might be anarchists?

In my 40+ years of voting I've voted for all 3 of the major parties. The votes cast have been based on 2 things, 1) current performance, whether in power or opposition, and 2) the manifesto on offer.

In the late 70's it was get rid of Labour at all costs. Growing up seeing report after report of strikes, 3 day weeks and power cuts. Arthur Scargill helped me decide on the Tories. As the Tories yo-yo'd further right my vote went to the Liberals, and then to Toxic Tony. What a great time New Labour brought to politics. Some great changes and increases in wealth for the working class. But then there were broken promises, e.g. university tuition fees. Toxic Tony said no way, yet it was one of the first changes. The invasion of Iraq and WMD... And my votes went to the LibDems again. Cue Gordon and spend spend spend, and my vote went to the Tories once again.

I thought David Cameron's early years, like Toxic Tony's, were good. But look where we are now, and just look at the choices!

A Tory vote? No. A Labour vote? Oh please, no. A LibDem vote? Who are they and what do they stand for?

Am I right wing? In some areas yes. My views on policing and sentencing are definitely right wing. But what about my views on taxes, benefits and healthcare? Definitely left wing. Liberal? Mmm, there's still a bit in there but I'm not sure where I stand on change. Old people shouldn't vote LibDem, its for young, long haired, thick wool jumper wearing yoghurt knitters. Harsh, and just for fun really. I do wish the LibDems would get their act together, but that could be said of all 3 parties at present.

Is the forum right wing?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2018)

Certain threads bring out extreme views, those threads are predominantly the same posters discussing a topic they are interested in.
It would be wrong to judge the forum on those few threads, but as in life there are people on all sides of the political divide.


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## DRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...Without doubt there's some very strong characters ....
		
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You sure aren't joking there..........Some people are just overpowering the forum but little will be done.

Sorry nothing to add to the thread really, as no one party really fits me as it is so limiting and there is no one answer.


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## Orikoru (Dec 21, 2018)

I've never been hugely into politics, wasn't interested at all until the last few years when I've become slightly more interested. Probably an age thing. But I would say I'm more left than right in my views.

In terms of political parties though, they're all as bad as each other it seems.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 21, 2018)

I'd say the forum, like my golf club and i suspect most other golf clubs, is definitely conservative (with a small "c"). Whether that counts as right wing I'd not care to say with certainty. I think I'd say the forum generally, is politically further right than me, but I'd also say I'm not as left as I used to be ...  (But I fear that just comes with age as grumpy-old-gittishness creeps in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2018)

Many people are too ashamed to own up to being right wing in public, only their voting paper would show up their true colours.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Many people are too ashamed to own up to being right wing in public, only their voting paper would show up their true colours.
		
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Why should people be ashamed of being right wing?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

I spend a fair bit of time on political sites, as politics fascinates me. I believe my politics are common sense politics, and whilst I have some socialist values, most people would consider me very right wing. Until UKIP collapsed they had my vote, but I am not sure where to go now. That said, I will probably vote Conservative at the next election just to keep Corbyn out. The people that make me laugh (and we all know them) are those who hold very right wing views but always vote Labour. The OP is right, whilst most of the people I play golf with are very working class, they are all pretty right wing. That said, I meet very few people with socialist or liberal views. I tend to think these people are very over represented in society, but we live in a country where any form of minority group has more power than the majority.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Why should people be ashamed of being right wing?
		
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I was thinking exactly the same thing. My views by most people would be considered very right wing, but I am proud of my beliefs


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

I played right back as a youngster.

Other than that, I'm distinctly Liberal.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

JamesR said:



			I played right back as a youngster.

Other than that, I'm distinctly Liberal.
		
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Other than my son, I have met very few liberals, and never on the golf course.


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Other than my son, I have met very few liberals, and never on the golf course.
		
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Well, if we ever meet you'll have met one more


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

I play golf with plenty of Left of centre folk .... 2 former teachers, a 30 yr old working in insurance, a solicitor and other

Plenty of folk right of centre too...  conservative "with small c" ... 

Definitions are also interesting... the guys above would call Tony Blair "right of centre!"  

There seems to be a trend in popular culture that "Right" is wrong and "Left" is ok.  Funny that.


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## cookelad (Dec 21, 2018)

Brother and father are openly right wing and many "Facebook friends" also, oddly enough my old man has been saying for some time that politics in the UK is like 1930s Germany, just didn't realise at the time which side he'd be standing on!!

I consider myself 'centrist' (whatever happened to just being normal?), I agree in places with the left and with the right and can make up my own mind which, I also see the humour that both sides complain about the BBCs bias without realising that their opposit number is saying the exact same thing.

During the last election there were (as you'd expect) many online quizzes to take to tell you which way to vote I always came up a pretty even split between blue red and green.


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## Beezerk (Dec 21, 2018)

I wouldn't even know the true definition of right and left wing, I just am what I am.
I've voted all over depending on what I deem to be right so I've no tendencies either way really.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 21, 2018)

I'm just to the right of Attila the Hun


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Definitions are also interesting... the guys above would call Tony Blair "right of centre!"

There seems to be a trend in popular culture that "Right" is wrong and "Left" is ok.  Funny that.
		
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If that refers to me, I wouldn't say right of centre was wrong full stop, just that I disagree with some of the policies that are created by some of the parties from that side of the line. The same can also be said of those parties on the left.
To me Blair was a Thatcherite in policy, because he knew that would get him elected, not because those were his beliefs.

All parties can come up with worthy points, even those I normally totally disagree with. I remember listening to Paul Nuttall at one of the leader debates (the one May sent Rudd as her spokesman). He was booed at just about everything he said, but some points (even to a LD voter like me) actually made sense, but were ignored by the press & baying mob in favour of his more extreme points.


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

The OP sounds like he just wants a centre party. All the parties fight for the centre ground - what New Labour did in the mid 90s is a prime example - but then desert it as they become more used to being in power.
Usually, I think most people want a centre party. Right now Brexit has changed everything and your politics are defined on whether you are leave or remain, but I think things will return to normal after Brexit has been dealt with.

As for me, well as a leaver I am branded far right on a daily basis. Itâ€™s like the real far right - Hitler and jackboots - never existed. In truth I am a little bit right of centre. Never voted Labour but believe if we cannot help and protect the old, young and vulnerable then we have no real society.
On balance I would say that the forum has more right wingers than left, but I think the vast majority have sensible views.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Why should people be ashamed of being right wing?
		
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Nobody should be afraid of declaring themselves right wing (whatever that means) - but those who do, and who support policies that knowingly and deliberately impact negatively on the poorest and most vulnerable of society, should be honest about that - and not pretend to themselves and others that the policies are fair and equitable and that it's OK for the poorest and most vulnerable to suffer as they will and do.


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## tugglesf239 (Dec 21, 2018)

I zig zag left and right in my thinking.

Hate party politics though. 

I also despise any form of extremity from Nazis on the right, to the blanket silencing of opposing views by neo liberals. The latter being my own personal irritation at the moment and arguable the biggest threat to free speech going.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nobody should be afraid of declaring themselves right wing (whatever that means) - but those who do, and who support policies that knowingly and deliberately impact negatively on the poorest and most vulnerable of society, should be honest about that - and not pretend to themselves and others that the policies are fair and equitable and that it's OK for the poorest and most vulnerable to suffer as they will and do.
		
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I dont think any reasonable person would wish to impact negatively on the poorest and most vunerable in society. There is a qualifier here though and thats people who are poor and vunerable but making their best efforts to support themselves.  There are people that are supported who are capable of supporting themselves but choose not to.  Do you believe we should be supporting these people?  Does holding this view make me right wing.


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## Orikoru (Dec 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			I play golf with plenty of Left of centre folk .... 2 former teachers, a 30 yr old working in insurance, a solicitor and other

Plenty of folk right of centre too...  conservative "with small c" ...

Definitions are also interesting... the guys above would call Tony Blair "right of centre!" 

*There seems to be a trend in popular culture that "Right" is wrong and "Left" is ok.  Funny that.*

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Largely due to clowns like Tommy Robinson disguising their hatred as simple right wing politics. Everything is polarised in the social media age - if you're slightly left-leaning you're a hippie and if you're right-leaning then you're in the EDL.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2018)

Iâ€™m left of centre ..

Not extreme left wing but defo lean that way

For example the tories keep increasing the tax free allowance .. did my bbc calculator ... after the NI increase (Â£29 ish a month) the increase in tax free allowance for me as a 40% tax payer worked out about Â£70 a month so net Â£41 a month extra in my pay. The wife gets about Â£10 extra net 

Whilst Â£50 pcm in the house is nice itâ€™s getting just stupid now.. why not use this money for something else? Iâ€™m sure there are projects within the budget that could use the funding.. stop throwing money at me to try win my vote. Iâ€™d rather it helped someone in need


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## PieMan (Dec 21, 2018)

Yes I am right wing in that I vote Conservative. My ex-MP was excellent, and his replacement was born and raised in the constituency and is also doing a good job.

The local borough council is also overwhelmingly Conservative and likewise they are doing a good job - so no need to vote for anyone else.

I was in Australia for the 1997 election and didn't vote, but would have voted Labour and Blair as I believed that is what the country needed at the time.

On my return to the UK in 1998 I went and worked directly for a Labour Cabinet Minister, and did so for him and his successors for about 6 years.

After witnessing at first hand the shocking abuse of the public purse by 2 of the Labour Cabinet Ministers I worked for (the other was great); the bile, vitriol and backstabbing that went on (all of which I've been told was far worse than what went on under the Conservatives both before and since) and the way they politicised certain elements of the civil service, I won't vote Labour ever again.


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m left of centre ..

Not extreme left wing but defo lean that way

For example the tories keep increasing the tax free allowance .. did my bbc calculator ... after the NI increase (Â£29 ish a month) the increase in tax free allowance for me as a 40% tax payer worked out about Â£70 a month so net Â£41 a month extra in my pay. The wife gets about Â£10 extra net

Whilst Â£50 pcm in the house is nice itâ€™s getting just stupid now.. why not use this money for something else? Iâ€™m sure there are projects within the budget that could use the funding.. stop throwing money at me to try win my vote. Iâ€™d rather it helped someone in need
		
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This is the big and most traditional split between left and right of centre politics. The left stands by â€œtax high, spend highâ€. The right prefers allowing people to keep more of the money they have earned, based on the premise that if people see that working harder is worthwhile in wages, they will earn more and therefore pay more tax.
After all, you are not a 40% tax payer because you canâ€™t be bothered going out to work. You have done well and clearly work hard. I accept your view that more could be done for those in need, but for me that needs to come by spending tax revenue more wisely. I donâ€™t really think itâ€™s right for any government to take say half or more of a workers earnings. Letâ€™s remember, to be a 40% tax payer does not mean you are filthy rich.


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2018)

I've got splinters........


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Centre Left but probably appear far left to some on here.


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## Robster59 (Dec 21, 2018)

I'm left of centre and always have been but I would agree that at the moment I would struggle to know who to vote for.  In my opinion, Labour is just a pivot for Corbyn who is only concerned about getting in to power and bringing on an election irrespective of the impact on the country and has silenced all his critics around him leaving him with a puppet shadow cabinet.  Lib Dem credibility plummeted in the coalition and for the Conservatives, I can't think of anyone who I would want to have in over May. 
I think you tend to find that on forums, like in the media, the extremists are the ones who shout the loudest so get more visibility whilst those either side of centre tend not to be as loud or self-promoting and so get overshadowed by those on the far sides of any divide.
As far as I am concerned you vote whichever way you believe in but I remember two great examples of peoples view

I was having a political debate with my friends when one of them said "anyway, you can't talk, you vote conservative".  "No, I don't" I say.  His response? "You must do, you've bought your own house!".
Another woman who I worked with voted conservative because, and I quote, "apart from the council estate behind us it's quite a nice area".


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## Grant85 (Dec 21, 2018)

I am definitely not right wing. Moderately left of centre on some issues (taxation, economy, healthcare etc) and a bit further left on other issues (criminal justice, drugs). 

We can debate the merits of who is the best driver of a bus to promote left wing politics and ideals, but Irvine Welsh said it best;



[B]Irvine Welsh[/B]

When you're not doing so well, vote for a better life for yourself. If you are doing quite nicely, vote for a better life for others.
11:40 AM - 7 May 2015


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 21, 2018)

Centre left, Christian Democrat, Druze Falange, champagne socialism.

Never voted to Tory or liberal, but would consider both for local politics, although labour dont help themselves at times.

For:- 
Curb on previous immigration levels, but in favour of it on the whole.
Looking after the needy, aged, vulnerable.
Getting work-shy doleites who can "work" to be assigned to the local council for certain tasks - if they dont do it, no money.
Getting company directors/ rich tax dodgers to also be jailed or massively fined for cheating of the tax man, and also some community service alongside the doleites.
Transport for the north and redistribution of wealth/services/infrastructure to the north in general.

Party politics should be replaced by non-aligned individuals to come together and make Britain great again, a bit like the war cabinets of the time - lets give it a go for 10 years, go back to party politics if it doesnt work - pipe dream, I know.

I wish people wouldnt keep banging on (or believing) that Labour will do what they did in the 1970's - its nearly 50 years ago now - do Labour bang on about stuff from the 1920's/1930's with the tory party?

Overall "Bill Shankly" Socialism would see us envied the world over.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



*I dont think any reasonable person would wish to impact negatively on the poorest and most vunerable in society. *There is a qualifier here though and thats people who are poor and vunerable but making their best efforts to support themselves.  There are people that are supported who are capable of supporting themselves but choose not to.  Do you believe we should be supporting these people?  Does holding this view make me right wing.
		
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LOL - that from one of the group who accept that leaving the EU will have a negative impact on the poorest and most vulnerable of our society but deem that a price worth paying.  Of course this is OK as it's only going to be in the short term - so what's that 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs? - and in any case, they are not part of those who will be hurt - until they - in their shock and horror - find that they are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I'm left of centre and always have been but I would agree that at the moment I would struggle to know who to vote for.  In my opinion, Labour is just a pivot for Corbyn who is only concerned about getting in to power and bringing on an election irrespective of the impact on the country and has silenced all his critics around him leaving him with a puppet shadow cabinet.  Lib Dem credibility plummeted in the coalition and for the Conservatives, I can't think of anyone who I would want to have in over May.
I think you tend to find that on forums, like in the media, the extremists are the ones who shout the loudest so get more visibility whilst those either side of centre tend not to be as loud or self-promoting and so get overshadowed by those on the far sides of any divide.
As far as I am concerned you vote whichever way you believe in but I remember two great examples of peoples view

I was having a political debate with my friends when one of them said "anyway, you can't talk, you vote conservative".  "No, I don't" I say.  His response? "You must do, you've bought your own house!".
Another woman who I worked with voted conservative because, and I quote, "apart from the council estate behind us it's quite a nice area". 


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Snap - centre left but currently with no home - at least those north of the border do have a very significant 3rd option that those south of it don't.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2018)

Sweep said:



			This is the big and most traditional split between left and right of centre politics. The left stands by â€œtax high, spend highâ€. The right prefers allowing people to keep more of the money they have earned, based on the premise that if people see that working harder is worthwhile in wages, they will earn more and therefore pay more tax.
After all, you are not a 40% tax payer because you canâ€™t be bothered going out to work. You have done well and clearly work hard. I accept your view that more could be done for those in need, but for me that needs to come by spending tax revenue more wisely. I donâ€™t really think itâ€™s right for any government to take say half or more of a workers earnings. Letâ€™s remember, to be a 40% tax payer does not mean you are filthy rich.
		
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Iâ€™m a firm believer in the needs of the many outway the needs of the few (live long and prosper lol) 

However on the complete flip side I like big businesses like tesco because I believe they provide so many jobs for others. For example a tesco express opens up.. the local shop keeper suffers yes but how many jobs does that one shop provide? Supporting how many familyâ€™s 

Just my 10 pennies worth


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - that from one of the group who accept that leaving the EU will have a negative impact on the poorest and most vulnerable of our society but deem that a price worth paying.  Of course this is OK as it's only going to be in the short term - so what's that 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs? - and in any case, they are not part of those who will be hurt - until they - in their shock and horror - find that they are.
		
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All posts lead to Brexit
You misrepresent my comments again,  please comment on what I say as opposed to what you want it to be. I have ALWAYS said that we should support the genuinely vulnerable in our society and I see no reason why that would be any different after Brexit.  Also I am not a member of any group, I always talk for myself.
So here's a little challenge for you, show me where I have said we should not support the genuine poorest and vulnerable in our society and I will gladly apologise to you. Otherwise I await an apology from you.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Largely due to clowns like Tommy Robinson disguising their hatred as simple right wing politics. Everything is polarised in the social media age - if you're slightly left-leaning you're a hippie and if you're right-leaning then you're in the EDL.
		
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Tommy Robinson is NOT clown, he is an actual fact very clever, albeit he was a bit of a rogue when younger. His knowledge of the Qaran is amazing, and he knows the book back to front. I also have read a lot of the Qaran, and can thus understand his fears regarding Islam. I suggest you spend the time to read his book "Enemy of the state" and you may well change your mind. In the meantime sit back and watch this, you may learn something


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## GB72 (Dec 21, 2018)

I would describe myself as centre right. Generally vote conservative but would vote for a centre left labour party over and extreme right conservative. With the demise of the liberals, however, there is a real lack of centre politics around and we could soon have a left/right divide not seen since the Thatcher/Kinnock days.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

GB72 said:



			I would describe myself as centre right. Generally vote conservative but would vote for a centre left labour party over and extreme right conservative. With the demise of the liberals, however, there is a real lack of centre politics around and we could soon have a left/right divide not seen since the Thatcher/Kinnock days.
		
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I would agree with you. The vast majority of people I know have moved further to the right in the last ten years, and this includes myself. The remainder, although a relatively small minority, have moved left. Of course, this won't stop right wing believers voting Labour, because they have always voted labour, and their father before them etc etc etc


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			... His knowledge of the Qaran is amazing, and he knows the book back to front. I also have read a lot of the Qaran, 







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You & he both read Arabic?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

JamesR said:



			You & he both read Arabic?
		
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So you weren't aware of the translated version of the Quran by George Sale.


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			So you weren't aware of the translated version of the Quran by George Sale.
		
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You ain't read the Qu'ran unless you've read it in Arabic.
It gets miss-translated and people take from it whatever suits their point of view!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2018)

JamesR said:



			You ain't read the Qu'ran unless you've read it in Arabic.
It gets miss-translated and people take from it whatever suits their point of view!
		
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Like the Bible then


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Anyone who thinks that Yaxley-Lennon is anything but a low rent thug with a talent for separating uneducated racists from their hard earned minimum wage is quite clearly hard of learning.


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Like the Bible then
		
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Quite possibly


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## richart (Dec 21, 2018)

JamesR said:



			I played right back as a youngster.

Other than that, I'm distinctly Liberal.
		
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I played right back as well, when the goals dried up.

I am Liberal as well, though I did get confused when they changed their name. 

Been voting for 40 years and never picked the winning team, including EU vote


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			An observation on another thread suggests that this forum is predominantly right wing. Is it? Without doubt there's some very strong characters but does that make them right wing or left wing? Some appear to perceive that if someone is strong on law and order they must be right wing. Does that mean Labour and LibDems might be anarchists?

In my 40+ years of voting I've voted for all 3 of the major parties. The votes cast have been based on 2 things, 1) current performance, whether in power or opposition, and 2) the manifesto on offer.

In the late 70's it was get rid of Labour at all costs. Growing up seeing report after report of strikes, 3 day weeks and power cuts. Arthur Scargill helped me decide on the Tories. As the Tories yo-yo'd further right my vote went to the Liberals, and then to Toxic Tony. What a great time New Labour brought to politics. Some great changes and increases in wealth for the working class. But then there were broken promises, e.g. university tuition fees. Toxic Tony said no way, yet it was one of the first changes. The invasion of Iraq and WMD... And my votes went to the LibDems again. Cue Gordon and spend spend spend, and my vote went to the Tories once again.

I thought David Cameron's early years, like Toxic Tony's, were good. But look where we are now, and just look at the choices!

A Tory vote? No. A Labour vote? Oh please, no. A LibDem vote? Who are they and what do they stand for?

Am I right wing? In some areas yes. My views on policing and sentencing are definitely right wing. But what about my views on taxes, benefits and healthcare? Definitely left wing. Liberal? Mmm, there's still a bit in there but I'm not sure where I stand on change. Old people shouldn't vote LibDem, its for young, long haired, thick wool jumper wearing yoghurt knitters. Harsh, and just for fun really. I do wish the LibDems would get their act together, but that could be said of all 3 parties at present.

*Is the forum right wing*?
		
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I think just purely down to statistics, if the core users are golf club members then on average they will be more conservative in their views, if that is the definition of right wing.  Same if you were on a teachers forum as statistically there would be more left wing views expressed on that.

Whilst some may not believe it, I do quite enjoy it when you get a good sensible argument for say right wing or brexit views as it helps people like me who may not share a lot of those views understand.  What does wind me up is when people just seem to have a dogmatic completely one sided view, often taken wholesale from certain media, with little questioning of it. I think politicians/parties often rely on little critical questioning of what they say to their more traditional voters.  Where as I'd argue that in a healthy democracy an element of questioning should always be there.  I am really scared we just go down the US route of one V the other with virtually no compromise or acknowledgement that there could be good things from both sides.  

As for my voting then normally liberal in local elections and green for the EU parliament.  But I have voted Labour occasionally in the past when we had a really good local MP who worked for the community.  I probably have voted Tory back in the 80s, but not since then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			All posts lead to Brexit
You misrepresent my comments again,  please comment on what I say as opposed to what you want it to be. I have ALWAYS said that we should support the genuinely vulnerable in our society and I see no reason why that would be any different after Brexit.  Also I am not a member of any group, I always talk for myself.
So here's a little challenge for you, show me where I have said we should not support the genuine poorest and vulnerable in our society and I will gladly apologise to you. Otherwise I await an apology from you.
		
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It is clear that many who are the most ardent Leave supporters - especially those who promote a No Deal as the best deal - accept that there will be at least a short term impact on the economy, and they struggle to deny that it would be the poorest and most vulnerable who will suffer.  Yet they will say that that economic impact - and hence that suffering of others - is a price worth paying for regaining control - sovereignty. 

And this it seems to me to reflect one core philosophy of many right wing policies, the end justifies the means - even if the means includes inflicting or results in suffering or hardship on the poorest and most vulnerable in our society (see recent Tory policy of George Osborne filed under A)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I would agree with you. The vast majority of people I know have moved further to the right in the last ten years, and this includes myself. The remainder, although a relatively small minority, have moved left. Of course, this won't stop right wing believers voting Labour, because they have always voted labour, and their father before them etc etc etc 

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Maybe you and your friends need to keep going right - you'll end up in the sea off the Lincolnshire coast and then you'll turn into 'wets'


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## Captainron (Dec 21, 2018)

I am definitely more conservative in my political view than alot of folk on here. 

I am very anti Socialism /communism


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Captainron said:



			I am definitely more conservative in my political view than alot of folk on here. 

I am very anti Socialism /communism
		
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I suspect that you needed your boys help to spell Socialism/Communism ðŸ˜‰


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## louise_a (Dec 21, 2018)

They say that you go more right wing as you get older, but I have been the opposite, now I don't think my views have changed so maybe UK politics have moved more to the right


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is clear that many who are the most ardent Leave supporters - especially those who promote a No Deal as the best deal - accept that there will be at least a short term impact on the economy, and they struggle to deny that it would be the poorest and most vulnerable who will suffer.  Yet they will say that that economic impact - and hence that suffering of others - is a price worth paying for regaining control - sovereignty.

And this it seems to me to reflect one core philosophy of many right wing policies, the end justifies the means - even if the means includes inflicting or results in suffering or hardship on the poorest and most vulnerable in our society (see recent Tory policy of George Osborne filed under A)
		
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I am correct then,  you dont read my posts. Although you dont actually accuse me of being a rabid no deal peddler you do tend to use a generic form of address that suggests it.  I have made it clear that my preferred option is to have a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU but without being restricted by them in any other way.  I dont know another way to explain that we should look after our genuinely vunerable people after Brexit but you seem to have the  all brexiteers are nasty people filters on again.
Still waitiing for you to show some evidence.


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## Wolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Never actually sat and thought about which side of the political fence I sit, I've voted for all 3 major parties for varying reasons at the time. But I would say nowadays with the way things stand I'm probably pretty much on the fence with my feet dangling on the left side. Oh and as for that Bword I voted remain...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 21, 2018)

I tend to vote for the candidate who I feel is best for the job on the ballot paper in front of me irrespective of what colour rosette that adorns them... Seems to fit in with my anti establishment views...


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 21, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Never actually sat and thought about which side of the political fence I sit, I've voted for all 3 major parties for varying reasons at the time. But I would say nowadays with the way things stand I'm probably pretty much on the fence with my feet dangling on the left side. Oh and as for that Bword I voted remain...
		
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I think you may be the only remainer in Lincolnshire, well done


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## Wolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I think you may be the only remainer in Lincolnshire, well done 

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I certainly don't need a well done from someone who hold views similar to yourself as shown on the other thread, if anything it shows that I voted the right way and didn't do so based solely on immigration.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

Wolf said:



			I certainly don't need a well done from someone who hold views similar to yourself as shown on the other thread, if anything it shows that I voted the right way and didn't do so based solely on immigration.
		
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I would love you to visit my local, you would then appreciate how moderate my views are.


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## KenL (Dec 22, 2018)

I have mainly voted Lib-Dem in elections but now I vote for however I feel has the biggest chance of defeating the SNP candidate!


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Anyone who thinks that Yaxley-Lennon is anything but a low rent thug with a talent for separating uneducated racists from their hard earned minimum wage is quite clearly hard of learning.
		
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No doubt written by someone who knows little about him. Yes, as a youngster he was very much a product of the town he was brought up in. He has spent much time educating himself, and is now attempting to share his wisdom with those wise enough to listen. Those who aren't wise enough, you better apologise to your grand children now.


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## Wolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			I would love you to visit my local, you would then appreciate how moderate my views are.
		
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I'd rather spend time inserting wasps up my backside than spend anytime with you in your local based on your views on this and your own thread.. I prefer to spend my time with people that understand the difference between extremism, religion and with people that are decent human beings.



Mrs Wiggles said:



			No doubt written by someone who knows little about him. Yes, as a youngster he was very much a product of the town he was brought up in. He has spent much time educating himself, and is now attempting to share his wisdom with those wise enough to listen. Those who aren't wise enough, you better apologise to your grand children now.
		
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I;d be more inclined to apologize to my grandchildren that there are people with views such as the ones you seem to openly hold on recent posts...


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## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			No doubt written by someone who knows little about him. Yes, as a youngster he was very much a product of the town he was brought up in. He has spent much time educating himself, and is now attempting to share his wisdom with those wise enough to listen. Those who aren't wise enough, you better apologise to your grand children now.
		
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Ok, I strongly suspect that when our grandchildren are in school and are looking back on this particular part of our history, they're not going to be discussing my part in this, but they are going to spend a long time discussing your views. And they're not going to be kind. 

And once again, I'm going to ask. Which political party best represents your views? I'm finding it quite interesting that you won't answer. 

Also, I may have missed it, but I haven't seen you post anything golf related. Are you only here for the politics?


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## chrisd (Dec 22, 2018)

richart said:



			I played right back as well, when the goals dried up.

I am Liberal as well, though I did get confused when they changed their name. 

Been voting for 40 years and never picked the winning team, including EU vote

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 Centre half or centre forward back in the day and still consider myself a Conservative with neither right or left leanings


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## woody69 (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Tommy Robinson is NOT clown, he is an actual fact very clever, albeit he was a bit of a rogue when younger. His knowledge of the Qaran is amazing, and he knows the book back to front. I also have read a lot of the Qaran, and can thus understand his fears regarding Islam. I suggest you spend the time to read his book "Enemy of the state" and you may well change your mind. In the meantime sit back and watch this, you may learn something







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The only thing you will learn from Robinson is far right, hate filled racist views. Regarding his views on Islam, he fails to draw any distinction between Islamist extremists and ordinary Muslims. He is just as much an extremist as those he appears to judge. 

Not sure the tag of "bit of a rogue" can be applied to someone who brought violence to the streets with anti-Muslim street protests and intimidation of political opponents by storming their offices and confronting them in their homes.

It makes me sad that you feel you are able to relate to his own generalised prejudiced and extremist views


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## TheDiablo (Dec 22, 2018)

Interesting image above from Information is Beautiful


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## TheDiablo (Dec 22, 2018)

I consider myself a centrist, going back to governments in my life time I'd have voted Tory in 92, Labour in 97 until 2010 when I'd have voted Tory again (and did). I've since switched to Lib Dems as the mainstream parties have shifted too far either way for me to feel I can vote for them based on my principles. Yes, they're a bit of a shambles at the moment but I feel they're the only party who remotely reflect my political beliefs so there we are! 

Personally would love it if Yvette Cooper could somehow get in charge of Labour, or Anna Soubry the Tories but I think we're a good few years away from any possibility of a centrist party leading.


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## robinthehood (Dec 22, 2018)

Just look through some of the threads to see where people stand. Some of it is absolutely shocking and pretty disgusting


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2018)

On economic issues I lean slightly to the right and on social issues slightly to the left. 

In addition to the above I voted and supported Remain but accept the result of the referendum and want no part of a second vote.

Also a republican but certainly not in favour of a revolution. 

Trying to find a label for that mix of views is beyond me!


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## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			On economic issues I lean slightly to the right and on social issues slightly to the left. 

In addition to the above I voted and supported Remain but accept the result of the referendum and want no part of a second vote.

Also a republican but certainly not in favour of a revolution. 

Trying to find a label for that mix of views is beyond me!
		
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It doesn't need a label. It's somewhat similar to me I suppose.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It doesn't need a label. It's somewhat similar to me I suppose.
		
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Are two of us enough to form a Party?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Just look through some of the threads to see where people stand. Some of it is absolutely shocking and pretty disgusting
		
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The Irony


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I consider myself a centrist, going back to governments in my life time I'd have voted Tory in 92, Labour in 97 until 2010 when I'd have voted Tory again (and did). I've since switched to Lib Dems as the mainstream parties have shifted too far either way for me to feel I can vote for them based on my principles. Yes, they're a bit of a shambles at the moment but I feel they're the only party who remotely reflect my political beliefs so there we are!

Personally would love it if Yvette Cooper could somehow get in charge of Labour, or Anna Soubry the Tories but I think we're a good few years away from any possibility of a centrist party leading.
		
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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

Strange how we see things differently. I do agree that the Labour party has moved left, but I believe the Tory party are far to central. I stopped voting Conservative because my politics are very right of their policies.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Just look through some of the threads to see where people stand. Some of it is absolutely shocking and pretty disgusting
		
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Why ?


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## robinthehood (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why ?
		
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im surprised you need to ask


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why ?
		
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Because whilst this is a more conservative leaning forum, a lot of contributors find eulogising of Tommy Robinson and his ilk a bit sad. And kudos to the forum for that. And If you are looking for reaffirmation and likes then, whilst I am sure there are one or two on here that agree with everything you type, there are other forums available that will give you more of a warm welcome when you express those type of views. Feel free to keep typing the stuff you do if you feel you need to, but unless you have a complete lack of self awareness, don't be surprised when you get pulled up and challenged on it.


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## robinthehood (Dec 22, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The Irony
		
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what Irony? you seem to be making something up


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because whilst this is a more conservative leaning forum, a lot of contributors find eulogising of Tommy Robinson and his ilk a bit sad. And kudos to the forum for that. And If you are looking for reaffirmation and likes then, whilst I am sure there are one or two on here that agree with everything you type, there are other forums available that will give you more of a warm welcome when you express those type of views. Feel free to keep typing the stuff you do if you feel you need to, but unless you have a complete lack of self awareness, don't be surprised when you get pulled up and challenged on it.
		
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Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.


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## Wolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.
		
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Tolernace and acceptance of people with right wing views is not an issue and doesn't make someone a bad person, xenophobic and borderline racist extreme right hand views on the other hand is not palettable to most decent human beings..


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## Dellboy (Dec 22, 2018)

I would say I'm more to the right than left, doesn't make me a bad person.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.
		
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Could be due to having witnessed in relatively modern times a regime (Nazi Germany) led by someone spouting evil prejudice similar to that coming from the far-right.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Could be due to having witnessed in relatively modern times a regime (Nazi Germany) led by someone spouting evil prejudice similar to that coming from the far-right.
		
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Blimey, I'm glad you don't exaggerate


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## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.
		
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I'm not sure that Tolerance and Far Right are usual bedfellows. 
I like to think that I'm tolerant of most views, but I find yours abhorrent and a sign of everything that is wrong with society. 

Note. One thing I'm not tolerant of is people who don't understand the difference between Of and Have. However, I recognise my failing and am working on it daily.................


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Blimey, I'm glad you don't exaggerate 

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I suggest that you study 20th century European history.

The Jews were the target then in the way that Muslims are  now.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.
		
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Tell you what, have a look at the spectrum of right wing views.  You'll find there is quite a range in there.  So with regards to yourself and others, there are many people on here who have 'right wing' views on things like the economy, defence, environment, public services and privatisation.  And I imagine very few 'left wing' people have a massive problem with that.  They may not agree and make counter arguments, but on the whole they do not find their views 'abhorrent'. 

Then you have those who are more to the far right where you start introducing views around race, which is when left, and indeed I imagine a lot of right wing people, get at best uncomfortable. You, either though your beliefs or through need to create deliberately controversial posts, are dealing on the more extreme ends with your views. Hence people will challenge and not just 'tolerate' those views.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Why is it people with right wing views are generally tolerant of people with left wing views, but the same can't be said in reverse.
		
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Because itâ€™s classic I canâ€™t be racist my friend from school is black defence tactics.


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## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2018)

This thread is turning into Nazi Tinder ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Wolf (Dec 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			This thread is turning into Nazi Tinder ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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But which way do you swipe left or right


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## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Wolf said:



			But which way do you swipe left or right 

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Would it give my age away if I said that I don't know which way is good or bad? ðŸ˜‰


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## jim8flog (Dec 22, 2018)

During my lifetime I have voted mainly Liberal. I had a brief period of voting conservative but when I saw what a staunch rightist (Maggie Thatcher) did to the country I never voted Conservative again.

A lot of the reason I like living in this country is because of a lot of the things that Labour brought in through the years, NHS, Care in the Community I really appreciate but what I dislike about them is the lack of ability to keep a reasonable control of the countries finances but the Conservatives have gone to the other extreme too much disregard of the poorer people in the country.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Tell you what, have a look at the spectrum of right wing views.  You'll find there is quite a range in there.  So with regards to yourself and others, there are many people on here who have 'right wing' views on things like the economy, defence, environment, public services and privatisation.  And I imagine very few 'left wing' people have a massive problem with that.  They may not agree and make counter arguments, but on the whole they do not find their views 'abhorrent'.

Then you have those who are more to the far right where you start introducing views around race, which is when left, and indeed I imagine a lot of right wing people, get at best uncomfortable. You, either though your beliefs or through need to create deliberately controversial posts, are dealing on the more extreme ends with your views. Hence people will challenge and not just 'tolerate' those views.
		
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From the school "if you want to talk about race or culture, you must be racist"


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			what Irony? you seem to be making something up
		
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The irony of someone castigateing others for castigating others.


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## robinthehood (Dec 22, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The irony of someone castigated others for castigated others.
		
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Wtf are you on about


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Tolernace and acceptance of people with right wing views is not an issue and doesn't make someone a bad person, xenophobic and borderline racist extreme right hand views on the other hand is not palettable to most decent human beings..
		
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Tolernace and acceptance of people with left wing views is not an issue and doesn't make someone a bad person, xenophobic and borderline racist extreme left hand views on the other hand is not palettable to most decent human beings.

There will always be differing viewpoints and they should both be taken into consideration when forming opinions. Your post would be better if it left out the Right Wing bias and suggested all extreme views are not palettable.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Wtf are you on about
		
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Stop digging.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not sure that Tolerance and Far Right are usual bedfellows.
I like to think that I'm tolerant of most views, but I find yours abhorrent and a sign of everything that is wrong with society.

Note. One thing I'm not tolerant of is people who don't understand the difference between Of and Have. However, I recognise my failing and am working on it daily.................
		
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I'm not sure that tolerancence and far-anything are usual bedfellows.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2018)

Isnâ€™t Far Right people like NF or BNP or EDL etc ? Fascists ? Racists etc 

Certainly as far from Tolerance as you can get 

Iâ€™m not sure if Iâ€™m right or left - mainly voted liberal or independent


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 22, 2018)

Not sure what right wing is, not sure I can be labelled. Is their a side for my beliefs? 

A misanthrope, anti-establishment brexiteer?


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## robinthehood (Dec 22, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop digging.
		
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Lol you've accused me of who knows what and now you can't back it up . Whatever mate


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 22, 2018)

Right or left itâ€™s not that simple anymore.
I think all parties will not fulfill their promises in the manifestos and always come up with a reason not to.
So the one piece of legislation that you voted for can be dropped like a stone once in power.

At the moment I would not give my vote to any of them,


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## Kellfire (Dec 22, 2018)

No of course Iâ€™m not. I donâ€™t think Iâ€™m friendly with anyone whoâ€™d say theyâ€™re right wing because in modern politics being right wing is akin to saying youâ€™re almost entirely money centric and donâ€™t give a damn about anyone but yourself.


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2018)

Depends on the definition of left and right.

If you used Keynes v Friedman it's an interesting debate.  Some remarks on here might assume that you can only be "far either" and attach all sorts to it


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## Wolf (Dec 23, 2018)

IanM said:



			Depends on the definition of left and right.

If you used Keynes v Friedman it's an interesting debate.  Some remarks on here might assume that you can only be "far either" and attach all sorts to it
		
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Think that sums up these debates perfectly, it's always assumed that people are far right or far left and can't see the middle ground for both areas. Personally like I said i sit firmly in the middle of the fence with feet slightly dangling over that fence to the left. I can see lots right that the Tories do and say,  lots wrong with Corbyn and some of his ideas, but I also see plenty in Labour manifesto I like and lots in the Tories I dislike equally, I like some of the liberal ideas as well, I guess I'm one of the modern day messed up voters that doesn't have one favoured party but prefer to look at all my options and go with either what I feel is best or in some cases the lesser of all evils. But I certainly don't agree with anything far right or far left as this for me takes away from where society and life should be heading

I do think Politics has evolved from the days of where everyone had a specific party they voted for based on social classes, economic wealth or what their parents voted on and so on. Now its a case of finding something that we believe will benefit the majority and having the courage of our convictions to commit to that vote and change without being swayed by others opinions but that is easier said than done,


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			An observation on another thread suggests that this forum is predominantly right wing. Is it? Without doubt there's some very strong characters but does that make them right wing or left wing? Some appear to perceive that if someone is strong on law and order they must be right wing. Does that mean Labour and LibDems might be anarchists?

In my 40+ years of voting I've voted for all 3 of the major parties. The votes cast have been based on 2 things, 1) current performance, whether in power or opposition, and 2) the manifesto on offer.

In the late 70's it was get rid of Labour at all costs. Growing up seeing report after report of strikes, 3 day weeks and power cuts. Arthur Scargill helped me decide on the Tories. As the Tories yo-yo'd further right my vote went to the Liberals, and then to Toxic Tony. What a great time New Labour brought to politics. Some great changes and increases in wealth for the working class. But then there were broken promises, e.g. university tuition fees. Toxic Tony said no way, yet it was one of the first changes. The invasion of Iraq and WMD... And my votes went to the LibDems again. Cue Gordon and spend spend spend, and my vote went to the Tories once again.

I thought David Cameron's early years, like Toxic Tony's, were good. But look where we are now, and just look at the choices!

A Tory vote? No. A Labour vote? Oh please, no. A LibDem vote? Who are they and what do they stand for?

Am I right wing? In some areas yes. My views on policing and sentencing are definitely right wing. But what about my views on taxes, benefits and healthcare? Definitely left wing. Liberal? Mmm, there's still a bit in there but I'm not sure where I stand on change. Old people shouldn't vote LibDem, its for young, long haired, thick wool jumper wearing yoghurt knitters. Harsh, and just for fun really. I do wish the LibDems would get their act together, but that could be said of all 3 parties at present.

Is the forum right wing?
		
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Reading this post I could of written it myself, the only bit I couldn't relate to was voting for the Tories. For what they did to the mining industry. No way. Pits were first shut because they were not profitable. I understood that. Then the coal market was opened up to the world, massive Coal unloading docks were built. It was then the death of the industry. Pits that were making millions for the country were closed. I could go on. But the Tories will never ever get my vote. What they say and do, do not go hand in hand. Same with Scargill. He is Toxic. He hated Thathcher with a passion but took the NUM to court to try and buy a penthouse pad in London owned buy the NUM, but quoting a law brought in by Thatcher.
I have always been a floating voter. Always sat on the fence trying to see both sides. But this current bunch of MPs are the worst in living memory. With Diane Abbot (stupid woman) and Jeremy Corbyn ( stupid man) amongst the thickest politicians I have seen. There are quite a few in the Tory party as well I could go on about as well including Cameron and Osbourne the gutless little ***********


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Lol you've accused me of who knows what and now you can't back it up . Whatever mate
		
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Ok let me make it easier for you. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You accuse others of having unacceptable attitudes when you use aggressive terms to attack them. I know you won't see this and will probably reply with something like Wtf.


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## robinthehood (Dec 23, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok let me make it easier for you. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You accuse others of having unacceptable attitudes when you use aggressive terms to attack them. I know you won't see this and will probably reply with something like Wtf.
		
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Yeah yeah, as I thought just making stuff up. Merry Christmas


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 23, 2018)

In reply to the title, no....slightly left of centre.

Merry Christmas


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah yeah, as I thought just making stuff up. Merry Christmas
		
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Thanks, have a great Christmas yourself


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2018)

Gopher said:



			Right wing politically in that yes, I thought Maggie Thatcher was decisive, correct and thought the best for the country in times of crisis.

Very pro military, anti Corbyn, wish washy neo-Stalinism

Sorry but hard socialism, anti-capitalism like Corbyn promotes hasn't worked for any developed country.. people want to work hard, make money and enjoy the benefits.
		
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Ironically is the right who have cut the military to the bare bone



clubchamp98 said:



			Right or left itâ€™s not that simple anymore.
I think all parties will not fulfill their promises in the manifestos and always come up with a reason not to.
So the one piece of legislation that you voted for can be dropped like a stone once in power.

At the moment I would not give my vote to any of them,
		
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Itâ€™s because no party will deploy a long term plan because they donâ€™t see the point as they have a good chance of being out of office in 5 years time

Every time a new government gets in they just rip apart the previous governments plans and start again. Prob why eduction objectives get changed every 2 mins.

China have a 100 year plan for their economy. Yes itâ€™s not the same system but if we could actually see through something for the good of the nation for once it Might help!!

Maybe just maybe with long term planning services like the nhs wouldnâ€™t be mismanaged (which is the problem rather than lack of funding)


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## Tiger man (Dec 23, 2018)

Fantastic bait from Hobbit here, Merry Christmas to all from our hippies to Nazi's.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

The main political parties in this country are generally left wing and even the conservatives of recent times are centre left and have been since blair came into power and they were ' forced ' to change to regain popularity. There are SOME proper conservatives still about but most nowadays are far more left leaning than you would have seen in the past. Generally people who claim to be centre with their feet hanging on the left side of the fence are believers in left wing ideologies and not central atall in their thinking. Extreme on either side is not good but like everything both sides are needed to keep the other in check and I'm always wary of people who claim to be completely centre in their beliefs. I think there is merit to the argument that if anybody is slightly right wing in their thinking they are labelled this and that, everybody KNOWS when right wing ideologies go too far the problem becomes how do you recognise when the left go too far ? This is a real problem and I think one that will become more apparent as politics become over saturated with leftists. Politics is always going to be a divisive topic on any forum, as for golf forums being dominated by conservative thinking? I'm not so sure, i come from a very working class background (both parents went through long spells of unemployment) did they or others i know from childhood actively seek to better themselves or their prospects? No never and I know this so generally i take with a pinch of salt the hardship because anybody with drive and ambition can succeed in this country , I am conservative in my thinking and further right than 'modern' conservative, what I'd call true conservatism, i know how people who claim benefits think and behave and a lot of it is geared at manipulating the system to benefit themselves


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

Doesn't it seem odd that this thread is name ' are you right wing ' why not how left wing is your thinking or what is your political ideology ? It's always striking how anything considered right of centre is negative, really sad


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The main political parties in this country are generally left wing and even the conservatives of recent times are centre left and have been since blair came into power and they were ' forced ' to change to regain popularity. There are SOME proper conservatives still about but most nowadays are far more left leaning than you would have seen in the past. Generally people who claim to be centre with their feet hanging on the left side of the fence are believers in left wing ideologies and not central atall in their thinking. Extreme on either side is not good but like everything both sides are needed to keep the other in check and I'm always wary of people who claim to be completely centre in their beliefs. I think there is merit to the argument that if anybody is slightly right wing in their thinking they are labelled this and that, everybody KNOWS when right wing ideologies go too far the problem becomes how do you recognise when the left go too far ? *This is a real problem and I think one that will become more apparent as politics become over saturated with leftists*. Politics is always going to be a divisive topic on any forum, as for golf forums being dominated by conservative thinking? I'm not so sure, i come from a very working class background (both parents went through long spells of unemployment) did they or others i know from childhood actively seek to better themselves or their prospects? No never and I know this so generally i take with a pinch of salt the hardship because anybody with drive and ambition can succeed in this country , I am conservative in my thinking and further right than 'modern' conservative, what I'd call true conservatism, i know how people who claim benefits think and behave and a lot of it is geared at manipulating the system to benefit themselves
		
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The way the world is moving at the moment I'm not 100% sure an oversaturation of lefties is the major political challenge the world will be facing.

Also I'm sure you'll also admit that some people do need welfare help and not all of them are manipulating the system. And some are stuck with some very difficult choices to make. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46649160


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			The way the world is moving at the moment I'm not 100% sure an oversaturation of lefties is the major political challenge the world will be facing.
		
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This is very true though wasn't really trying to address issues outside the right wing/left wing discussion


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Doesn't it seem odd that this thread is name ' are you right wing ' why not how left wing is your thinking or what is your political ideology ? It's always striking how anything considered right of centre is negative, really sad
		
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I agree with your second sentence. And the current Labour top table are very good at making that (slanted) point. As for the thread title? Its taken from a question posed in another thread, and rather than derail that thread its posed here.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			The way the world is moving at the moment I'm not 100% sure an oversaturation of lefties is the major political challenge the world will be facing.

Also I'm sure you'll also admit that some people do need welfare help and not all of them are manipulating the system. And some are stuck with some very difficult choices to make. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46649160

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Of course there is a genuine need for welfare and I'm not saying being a beneficiary of the state doesn't bring about hardship, that is inevitable, it simply wouldn't be fair if you could survive at the expense of others and have all that you require for a good life all the time. Whilst it's necessary, it should not be there to be openly manipulated and whilst it's inevitable it will be manipulated it should not be easy to do so, so where do you sit on the issue. There is a need for it but it can't be too cushy or else nobody would care to find a job. I don't know the ins and outs of UC but from what I gather it's a pretty badly setup restructuring of the system


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Of course there is a genuine need for welfare and I'm not saying being a beneficiary of the state doesn't bring about hardship, that is inevitable, it simply wouldn't be fair if you could survive at the expense of others and have all that you require for a good life all the time. Whilst it's necessary, it *should not be there to be openly manipulated and whilst it's inevitable it will be manipulated it should not be easy to do so, so where do you sit on the issue*. There is a need for it but it can't be too cushy or else nobody would care to find a job. I don't know the ins and outs of UC but from what I gather it's a pretty badly setup restructuring of the system
		
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Wherever possible we should eliminate benefit fraud. And I am sure there are some out there who are living the high life on benefits, but there are many many more who are just surviving at best. Also the problem is overly magnified where other issues costing us more are swept under the carpet more https://www.indy100.com/article/ben...idance-billions-government-statistics-8056846 . 

But I'd argue any decent humane society needs to look after all in society as the free market will not provide for everyone. And if the price of doing so is some fraudulent claims then I'm happy to pay that price. 

And I'd argue it is not the benefit system that is the main reason stopping people finding well paid jobs but the structure of our economy and housing market. Something that we will need to think hard about in a world of increasing automation.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

The article you link could be directed at benefit cheats, simply because the amount of people who claim and work cash in hand jobs without paying a penny in NI or tax is astronomical. I know an individual's tax bill like this would likely be very small however there are far more in this category than those who can afford accountants and lawyers to find every little loophole they can to bring their tax liability down. Us brits are one of the highest taxed nations in the world and 40% of a significant amount is a significant amount, it would probably make sense to reduce the tax brackets as the cost involved to avoid wouldn't be worth the saving and HMRC wouldnt have to spend so much chasing it.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The article you link could be directed at benefit cheats, simply because the amount of people who claim and work cash in hand jobs without paying a penny in NI or tax is astronomical. I know an individual's tax bill like this would likely be very small however there are far more in this category than those who can afford accountants and lawyers to find every little loophole they can to bring their tax liability down. *Us brits are one of the highest taxed nations in the world* and 40% of a significant amount is a significant amount, it would probably make sense to reduce the tax brackets as the cost involved to avoid wouldn't be worth the saving and HMRC wouldnt have to spend so much chasing it.
		
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I'd argue compared with other Western capitalist economies we're mid table at best.  Plus I'd argue the people who are avoiding, evading it now will always find ways to avoid paying tax.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-taxes-in-the-world.html


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with your second sentence. And the current Labour top table are very good at making that (slanted) point. As for the thread title? Its taken from a question posed in another thread, and rather than derail that thread its posed here.
		
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I'd say it depends where you are looking for the impression that right of centre is negative. In the majority of the print media that is not the case as a lot of papers are right wing to various extents.

But in the arts, especially comedy, that generally has a negative view of anything right wing. 

As for social media then it depends on the extent of your echo chamber. I only come on here to even out my daily feeds from JK Rowling and Gary Lineker.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

I don't think you would see the same willingness and desire to actively avoid if the cost to do so did not outweigh the risk of getting caught and also we'd save huge amounts on all the resources currently tasked with chasing these individuals and companies


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			I don't think you would see the same willingness and desire to actively avoid if the cost to do so did not outweigh the risk of getting caught and also we'd save huge amounts on all the resources currently tasked with chasing these individuals and companies
		
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Save even more if we got the priorities right!

â€œA report has revealed HMRC employ just 522 staff to tackle tens of billions of tax evasion by the super-rich but the DWP employ 4,045 to tackle benefit fraud.â€
@Rachael_Swindon, 26 June 2018


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Save even more if we got the priorities right!

â€œA report has revealed HMRC employ just 522 staff to tackle tens of billions of tax evasion by the super-rich but the DWP employ 4,045 to tackle benefit fraud.â€
@Rachael_Swindon, 26 June 2018

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Sometimes it's worthwhile researching who constructs these reports and how they interpret the data because sometimes it's not all as it seems or it's spun in s way which suits a narrative or viewpoint which they wish to put forward


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Sometimes it's worthwhile researching who constructs these reports and how they interpret the data because sometimes it's not all as it seems or it's spun in s way which suits a narrative or viewpoint which they wish to put forward
		
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Or by ignoring the amount of unpaid tax and burying our head in the sand we can keep blaming societies most vulnerable.
2017, NAO figures, Benefit fraud amounts to less than 2% of the Benefits bill.
It would be far more beneficial to the Country if half the staff involved in Benefit fraud was switched to Tax evasion.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

Blaming societies most vulnerable? No I simply stated there is a culture out there of many people who do not wish to work or seek to better themselves, i come from a family of ' societies most vulnerable ' quite a few alcoholic uncles dieing in early 50'S and the such so I am quite aware of the poorer people in society and my mother and father are still unemployed so you cannot preach to me the point you try to make. The rich will always be able to legally or not so legally avoid paying tax, it would make economic sense for the risk to outweigh the cost and not the other way around.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Blaming societies most vulnerable? No I simply stated there is a culture out there of many people who do not wish to work or seek to better themselves, i come from a family of ' societies most vulnerable ' quite a few alcoholic uncles dieing in early 50'S and the such so I am quite aware of the poorer people in society and my mother and father are still unemployed so you cannot preach to me the point you try to make. The rich will always be able to legally or not so legally avoid paying tax, it would make economic sense for the risk to outweigh the cost and not the other way around.
		
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Did you not read the words, our and we? The post was not aimed at you personally.
How often do we see TV programmes about â€œBenefit Scroungersâ€ for example or newspaper headlines when the fraudsters appear in court? 
When was the last TV programme made about the rich fiddling tax or headline in the paper.
Absolutely chase Benefit fraudsters, just chase the tax evaders and close the tax loopholes as well with the same vigour.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 23, 2018)

Quite often you hear of tax evasion and it's simply often from the awfully left wing Labour party who seeks to make corporate companies and successful people in society out as scapegoats to further their own political careers. They make out these people are the cause of all your ills and if we can recoup this lost revenue an end to austerity and inequality will come - this is all targeted bull as you can never end these things and have a completely free nation. They are simply trying to appeal to an audience


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			Quite often you hear of tax evasion and it's simply often from the awfully left wing Labour party who seeks to make corporate companies and successful people in society out as scapegoats to further their own political careers. They make out these people are the cause of all your ills and if we can recoup this lost revenue an end to austerity and inequality will come - this is all targeted bull as you can never end these things and have a completely free nation. They are simply trying to appeal to an audience
		
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Rubbish, the figures Iâ€™ve quoted and others have, have come from the Government websites.
Labour or any other left wing groups arenâ€™t making this up.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 24, 2018)

You disagree the Labour party highlights tax avoidance by corporate companies/high profile individuals for it's own political gains ? You think if all tax evasion suddenly ceased we would have a fairer society with those on social welfare suddenly not facing the same issues they have at the moment?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			You disagree the Labour party highlights tax avoidance by corporate companies/high profile individuals for it's own political gains ? You think if all tax evasion suddenly ceased we would have a fairer society with those on social welfare suddenly not facing the same issues they have at the moment?
		
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The current Government has done more to tackle tax evasion and close loopholes than any previous Government, regardless of party.
No one has said if tax evasion ceased weâ€™d have this utopia, but if youâ€™re looking to help the Government finances Iâ€™d rather have the Â£30 Billion in unpaid taxes than the Â£2 Billion Benefit fraud.
Plus Tory Government figures reckon there is over Â£20 Billion owed in unclaimed Benefits and I can guarantee there isnâ€™t ovet 4,000 people employed to pay those benefits out!


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, the figures Iâ€™ve quoted and others have, have come from the Government websites.
Labour or any other left wing groups arenâ€™t making this up.
		
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Labour aren't making it up but they are making best use of the headline grabbing emotive issue that it is. The current government is lousy at highlighting the good things it has done.

Two things spring to mind as an indicator of how things have improved in recent years. Even though there's hardly been a dent in immigration, and this isn't a pop at immigration, employment is at its lowest level in over 40 years. Over 300,000 increase year on year of people coming into the country, yet unemployment has fallen significantly.

Not doubt someone will be along shortly to shout about all the zero hours contracts that are masking the 'truth.'

Secondly, tax revenue is at an all time high of over Â£730bn. Which begs the question, if the Tories are the party of tax reduction, especially for the wealthiest why is tax revenue going up? Direct taxation of individuals, right across the demographic has gone down. So why are the Tories seen as the baddies? 

Benefits fraud and austerity; why do the Tories appear to chase benefit fraud more vigorously than tax evasion? The simple reason is easily answered by asking a question. Which is the easiest to chase? The tax man doesn't know every income a person might have that is liable for tax but the benefits agency knows who its paying benefits to. The benefits agency already has people claiming benefits that have to pass various tests. Just who does the tax man chase?

Tax avoidance... honestly, what is wrong with legally avoiding paying tax? If the law says you can do 'x' and avoid paying tax, just what is wrong with that? Ah but morally... If someone isn't breaking the law, they're not doing anything wrong. Its up to the government of the day to ensure there aren't loopholes in the tax system. Its not up to individuals to pay more than they are legally obliged to do.

Austerity; it's now a dirty word, thanks to Labour and the media. It was needed 10 years ago but not now, and definitely not to the level its been used. If you look at the annual spend, year on year, in the last 10 years its barely risen, and certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Cropping benefits, as the Tories have done, is just morally wrong. There is no plausible reason to reduce benefits for the most needy. I can't think of one reason why anyone would take money off someone that needed it. Its disgusting!

How much have various blue chip companies paid in Corporation Tax? Amazon? Google? Apple? Starbucks? Costa Coffee? There's your answer to lost tax revenue. And there's where the EU, and the individual countries, are turning a blind eye to the law.  EU law clearly states that a company that makes a profit in one country can't declare that profit in another country to offset taxes. It can't mitigate the losses in one country by the profits in another country. I know first hand having worked for a company that showed its costs in the UK but the profit in Germany = â‚¬10m fine.

The Right(Tories) might have put the UK on a business footing but its the Left(Labour and LibDems) that appears to be the conscience for the people.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 24, 2018)

The point is the rich are always going to have ways to legally avoid, it is mostly the rich and successful who have the most clout when it comes to policies/laws being passed through parliament. Almost a bit like planning passing through a local council, it's not corrupt but it is, if you have enough of something and are friendly with the right people. However these people still pay huge amounts in tax and also bring huge benefits to the economy in way of hard cash and jobs.

I guarantee the true cost of people who work cash jobs and claim things they wouldn't otherwise be entitled to is quite high. Working people can have a job and claim housing or child benefit though they might and a lot do have 2nd jobs on the side that never see the light of day. To take the moral high ground of being for the working class/unemployed is a fools game because given the opportunity the same or a higher proportion would evade paying taxes just as the wealthy do.
There is a frightening number of people who have never worked a day in their lives (I personally know several) they all think of the rich with disdain yet they are all to some degrees dishonest and cunning people in one way or another themselves.

The government will never recover book figures on taxes unpaid to the revenue, there are always loopholes and given a lot of lawmakers themselves come from wealth and are surrounded by it you can see why. If I earned Â£1 million and could avoid paying the revenue Â£400,000 i definitely would and so would most people, it's a lot of money. Id rather have these companies employing thousands of people in this country than not have them. I'm not so sure I'd rather have so many people who have never worked being able to have their own council house and get by without any real hardship, they should be given the choice of education courses or voluntary work if they wish to claim as long as they are capable of.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Labour aren't making it up but they are making best use of the headline grabbing emotive issue that it is. The current government is lousy at highlighting the good things it has done.

Two things spring to mind as an indicator of how things have improved in recent years. Even though there's hardly been a dent in immigration, and this isn't a pop at immigration, employment is at its lowest level in over 40 years. Over 300,000 increase year on year of people coming into the country, yet unemployment has fallen significantly.

Not doubt someone will be along shortly to shout about all the zero hours contracts that are masking the 'truth.'

Secondly, tax revenue is at an all time high of over Â£730bn. Which begs the question, if the Tories are the party of tax reduction, especially for the wealthiest why is tax revenue going up? Direct taxation of individuals, right across the demographic has gone down. So why are the Tories seen as the baddies?

Benefits fraud and austerity; why do the Tories appear to chase benefit fraud more vigorously than tax evasion? The simple reason is easily answered by asking a question. Which is the easiest to chase? The tax man doesn't know every income a person might have that is liable for tax but the benefits agency knows who its paying benefits to. The benefits agency already has people claiming benefits that have to pass various tests. Just who does the tax man chase?

Tax avoidance... honestly, what is wrong with legally avoiding paying tax? If the law says you can do 'x' and avoid paying tax, just what is wrong with that? Ah but morally... If someone isn't breaking the law, they're not doing anything wrong. Its up to the government of the day to ensure there aren't loopholes in the tax system. Its not up to individuals to pay more than they are legally obliged to do.

Austerity; it's now a dirty word, thanks to Labour and the media. It was needed 10 years ago but not now, and definitely not to the level its been used. If you look at the annual spend, year on year, in the last 10 years its barely risen, and certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Cropping benefits, as the Tories have done, is just morally wrong. There is no plausible reason to reduce benefits for the most needy. I can't think of one reason why anyone would take money off someone that needed it. Its disgusting!

How much have various blue chip companies paid in Corporation Tax? Amazon? Google? Apple? Starbucks? Costa Coffee? There's your answer to lost tax revenue. And there's where the EU, and the individual countries, are turning a blind eye to the law.  EU law clearly states that a company that makes a profit in one country can't declare that profit in another country to offset taxes. It can't mitigate the losses in one country by the profits in another country. I know first hand having worked for a company that showed its costs in the UK but the profit in Germany = â‚¬10m fine.

The Right(Tories) might have put the UK on a business footing but its the Left(Labour and LibDems) that appears to be the conscience for the people.
		
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I never made the discussion political Bri, Iâ€™ve praised the current Government on its tax stance.
Opposition parties will always highlight the bad and promise the world.
That still doesnâ€™t mean the argument that the more money the rich have the less tax they should pay and thatâ€™s ok.
We should all be paying our fair taxes, what ever form that takes and it should be from the richest to the poorest.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I never made the discussion political Bri, Iâ€™ve praised the current Government on its tax stance.
Opposition parties will always highlight the bad and promise the world.
That still doesnâ€™t mean the argument that the more money the rich have the less tax they should pay and thatâ€™s ok.
We should all be paying our fair taxes, what ever form that takes and it should be from the richest to the poorest.
		
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Its a tough circle to square, i.e. should the rich pay more? A simple maths exercise would, to me, suggest the rich pay too much tax by a long, long way.

A guy on Â£100,000 pays Â£36k in tax, after his allowances. He then pays Â£10k NI.

A guy on Â£20k pays Â£2k + NI after allowances.

Should the rich be taxed even more? In the example above, they are already paying Â£46k. They could afford to pay more but is it fair? Is it morally right to take so much more off one person? You'll never convince me it is. 

However, I'd like to see the allowances raised by quite a lump and the tax levels changed. Picking a figure out of the air, how about no one pays any tax up to Â£35k but everyone after that pays 30%? I'm sure someone better versed in numbers could come up with a better number to start from. Or, alternatively, raise NI contributions but have zero tax but tax at point of purchase. If someone has a home they pay the going rate, irrespective of the size of their house. If someone has a car its zero road tax but taxed through fuel duty. Then the more you drive, the more fuel you buy, the more tax you pay. Is it fair that granny who does 3,000 miles a year pays the same road tax as someone that does 40,000 miles a year?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough circle to square, i.e. should the rich pay more? A simple maths exercise would, to me, suggest the rich pay too much tax by a long, long way.

A guy on Â£100,000 pays Â£36k in tax, after his allowances. He then pays Â£10k NI.

A guy on Â£20k pays Â£2k + NI after allowances.

Should the rich be taxed even more? In the example above, they are already paying Â£46k. They could afford to pay more but is it fair? Is it morally right to take so much more off one person? You'll never convince me it is.

However, I'd like to see the allowances raised by quite a lump and the tax levels changed. Picking a figure out of the air, how about no one pays any tax up to Â£35k but everyone after that pays 30%? I'm sure someone better versed in numbers could come up with a better number to start from. Or, alternatively, raise NI contributions but have zero tax but tax at point of purchase. If someone has a home they pay the going rate, irrespective of the size of their house. If someone has a car its zero road tax but taxed through fuel duty. Then the more you drive, the more fuel you buy, the more tax you pay. Is it fair that granny who does 3,000 miles a year pays the same road tax as someone that does 40,000 miles a year?
		
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No issue with any fair system, but the argument of let the rich get richer and blame the poor does nothing for me.
Itâ€™s the rich fiddling more than the poor at the moment and those doing it illegally at both ends of the scale need chasing.
Not from you, but arguing the rich pay too much tax so not blaming them for fiddling is disgusting and immoral.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			No issue with any fair system, but the argument of let the rich get richer and blame the poor does nothing for me.
Itâ€™s the rich fiddling more than the poor at the moment and those doing it illegally at both ends of the scale need chasing.
Not from you, but arguing the rich pay too much tax so not blaming them for fiddling is disgusting and immoral.
		
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I think we both agree on the fiddlers. I'm on about people playing by the rules but at one extreme getting taxed to hell. And if the rich get richer by earning it, I've no problem with that, they've earned it.

But how do you define the cut-off for being rich? At what point do you say, you earn way too much, we're going to tax you to hell and back. That's arbitrary and vindictive. I don't care that Elton John earns squillions. He's earned it through what he has done/does. If he's fiddling his taxes, screws him to the wall till he squeals. But if he earns Â£10m he gets taxed over half of it. One person paying over Â£5m, just wrong. Corporation Tax is different, and I don't agree with the loop holes used by the likes of Amazon on Corp Tax.


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## DRW (Dec 24, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Save even more if we got the priorities right!

â€œA report has revealed HMRC employ just 522 staff to tackle *tens of billions of tax evasion by the super-rich *but the DWP employ 4,045 to tackle benefit fraud.â€
@Rachael_Swindon, 26 June 2018

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Do you not find yourself questioning what you quoted ? Only ask as how many people do you think in the UK would be classed as super rich (the above says tens of billion evasion divided by this number, is a big number that each super rich person is evading each and every year based on illegal activities not avoided taxes)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2018)

DRW said:



			Do you not find yourself questioning what you quoted ? Only ask as how many people do you think in the UK would be classed as super rich (the above says tens of billion evasion divided by this number, is a big number that each super rich person is evading each and every year based on illegal activities not avoided taxes)
		
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No as I read the report the post came from.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I am correct then,  you dont read my posts. Although you dont actually accuse me of being a rabid no deal peddler you do tend to use a generic form of address that suggests it.  I have made it clear that my preferred option is to have a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU but without being restricted by them in any other way.  I dont know another way to explain that we should look after our genuinely vunerable people after Brexit but you seem to have the  all brexiteers are nasty people filters on again.
Still waitiing for you to show some evidence.
		
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You are right - I try to not make things personal...to try and not aim comments at an individual.  Sometimes it's not always possible.  However if you wish to take a general observation I might make on board as being representative of your point of view then - of course - feel free.  

I do not lump all of those who voted to leave as 'nasty' - there is a small minority on the very far right who hold views that I would consider nasty - but I couldn't call them nasty as individuals as I don't know them - I am sure there are some out there.  

And I am afraid that the attitudes of many in respect of *wishing *for a _No Deal_ does IMO suggest a callous disregard for the risk that poses towards the most vulnerable and poorer of society, and I am not alone in thinking that because the evidence is there that such as 'austerity' have hurt the poorer most - and the poorer it seems are those who get targetted most by the harshest policies...

I have personal experience of what benefit sanctions mean and how crippling and devastating they can be to those to whom they are applied - sometimes for the merest discretion or mistake.  And using your qualification in respect of the vulnerable - many of those that get sanctioned are 'genuinely' vulnerable,  but the system does not seem to care about that.


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