# state pension age 70



## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

So the state pension age will be raised to 70. There will be a lot of manual workers who wont be physically capable of carrying out their duties at that age. Then they'll be the 70 year old HGV drivers crawling around the roads, taxi drivers getting lost more often, old policemen/ women chasing crooks.
I know from personal experience there's a good few things that I either can't do at all or takes me twice as long to do, but that's another post. 
What's your thoughts guys and gals.???


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

It's wrong - very wrong 

Just because people are living longer doesn't mean they can work for longer.

It's just the government finding ways to not pay too much money 

There are lots of other places to make cuts instead of punishing the older generation - MP's expenses for a start , then the amount paid out in benefits


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

:thup:



Liverpoolphil said:



			It's wrong - very wrong 

Just because people are living longer doesn't mean they can work for longer.

It's just the government finding ways to not pay too much money 

There are lots of other places to make cuts instead of punishing the older generation - MP's expenses for a start , then the amount paid out in benefits
		
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:thup:


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## Rooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's wrong - very wrong 

Just because people are living longer doesn't mean they can work for longer.

It's just the government finding ways to not pay too much money 

There are lots of other places to make cuts instead of punishing the older generation - MP's expenses for a start , then the amount paid out in benefits
		
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Bring in a cut off level for life expectancy, so for arguments sake, the state only has to look after pensioners for 20 years. 

Think of the savings, no more retirement homes, no more telegrams for the queen to write, birthday candle sales will fall, yes. but its a small price to pay.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

I wonder what david cameron would say if his house was on fire and five 69 year old guys got off the truck.


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## JCW (Dec 5, 2013)

Rooter said:



			Bring in a cut off level for life expectancy, so for arguments sake, the state only has to look after pensioners for 20 years. 

Think of the savings, no more retirement homes, no more telegrams for the queen to write, birthday candle sales will fall, yes. but its a small price to pay.
		
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Its time you relied on yourself and not the state , that's a bonus pension  , I planned for my retirement in my early 20`s , others said to me what you doing all that for now , the Older British Rail Drivers said don't listen to them you carry on son , we did not have the chance in our time , anyway I am now retired  at 54 , only regret I have is I wish I put aside more so I have a even bigger pension ..............so you young guys sort it now , don't tink  its years away, make your own arrangements be it a private pension or buy to let property , they say life starts at 40 or 50 .................it does ............EYG


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm not sure this will apply to public sector workers. They tend to get treated very differently to the riff raff. It will only apply to the state pension, which may not exist in it's current form when I retire. Anyone soley relying on the state pension for their retirement is going to be very badly off.


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## JCW (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			I wonder what david cameron would say if his house was on fire and five 69 year old guys got off the truck.
		
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It will be burned to the ground before they get the hose pipes working


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I'm not sure this will apply to public sector workers. They tend to get treated very differently to the riff raff.
		
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65 at the moment and a imposible fitness test to complete when you 64 so they dont have to pay you your lump sum of 80k. Hence the strikes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

I'll see if I worry about it when I get to 65. when is the pension age set to be 70?  Next year or 15 yrs down the road from now?


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## ger147 (Dec 5, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll see if I worry about it when I get to 65. when is the pension age set to be 70?  Next year or 15 yrs down the road from now?
		
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2040 something I think, nothing for you to worry about


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Thankfully i become 65 before then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

ger147 said:



			2040 something I think, nothing for you to worry about 

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2040?  Well what's the big deal - no-one has any real idea how fit or unfit the average 65+yr old will be in 25 yrs time.


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## Sharktooth (Dec 5, 2013)

Worked with a Diving Superintendent recently who was 70. Still working offshore at that age and trust me, the guy is a legend. Refuses to retire even though he could buy you or I.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

Sharktooth said:



			Worked with a Diving Superintendent recently who was 70. Still working offshore at that age and trust me, the guy is a legend. Refuses to retire even though he could buy you or I.
		
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My dad was working part-time (for himself) past his mid-70s - he was a cabinet maker.


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			2040?  Well what's the big deal - no-one has any real idea how fit or unfit the average 65+yr old will be in 25 yrs time.
		
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Probably about the same, I doubt they will be running a sub minute 400m TBH.


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## Rooter (Dec 5, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			2040?  Well what's the big deal - no-one has any real idea how fit or unfit the average 65+yr old will be in 25 yrs time.
		
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wont need to be fit, we will all be getting around on hover boards by then.


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## Sharktooth (Dec 5, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My dad was working part-time (for himself) past his mid-70s - he was a cabinet maker.
		
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Fair play to your old boy. How many people with his experience are there now in that craft?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2013)

Lightweights!
My 83 year old self employed MIL works 45 hour weeks 51 weeks a year.
The 52nd week she goes pony trekking in Devon.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Probably about the same, I doubt they will be running a sub minute 400m TBH. 

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I am coming up for 66 and I bet I could leave a lot of teenagers a long way behind on a hill trek.
Some right ageist guff on this thread!

One of my retired neighbours goes fell running to a decent standard, anyone tried that?


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## rosecott (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			I wonder what david cameron would say if his house was on fire and five 69 year old guys got off the truck.
		
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Do firemen not retire on pension at age 55?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am coming up for 66 and I bet I could leave a lot of teenagers a long way behind on a hill trek.
Some right ageist guff on this thread!

One of my retired neighbours goes fell running to a decent standard, anyone tried that?
		
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Have read much ageist posts on the thread tbh

Unless I have missed something ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Do firemen not retire on pension at age 55?
		
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If they aren't on strike


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## Rooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am coming up for 66 and I bet I could leave a lot of teenagers a long way behind on a hill trek.
Some right ageist guff on this thread!

One of my retired neighbours goes fell running to a decent standard, anyone tried that?
		
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i was just joshing to see if you old boys were still awake!

My grandad, now 85, retired from playing rugby aged 74. full contact and played 2nd or back row, he also refused to wear the gold shorts at amateur level means don't tackle full, tap both hips and the have to give up the ball basically. He only retired as my grandmother cut his boots up and made a fuss about it. he also ran the London marathon for consecutively for 32 years, his last was aged around 68. (still sub 4 hrs) So there is life in some of these old dogs!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Do firemen not retire on pension at age 55?
		
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They can retire on a Firefighters pension from 50 if they have served 30 years, the new Government proposals require them to work to 60 for their pensions.  They are striking as they say 60 is too old.

I know a number of Firefighters and they seem to have a lot of time on their hands, one at our golf club has a landscape gardening business.  I think we all are aware of the difficult job they do and IMO they are well rewarded for it, I have little sympathy for their current demands.


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Some right ageist guff on this thread!
		
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There frequently is, on many threads.  However, I stand by my original claim that there will be no significant increase or decrease in the physical ability of the average 60-odd year old over the next few decades.

Or did I miss the point of your post doon? are you suggesting that people should undergo a physical fitness test to determine their pension date?


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2013)

Has anyone seen any evidence that we are all living longer or is it a myth like global warming?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

So what exactly will make the majority of the future population live longer?   What I see is a lot of very overweight people who seem to be having problems walking in their twenties.  I also see people drinking more , especially young women who's bodies cannot deal with this amount of alcohol.  Is the answer better health care like cures for some of the diseases such as cancer?

It's true that the average life expectancy now is around ten years higher than my parents generation and much of this is due to better medical care and nutrition but will this continue into the future so that people now in their twenties can expect to live around 5 years longer than someone retiring today?

I have my doubts.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

The point I tried to make in the op, was " A LOT of MANUAL workers" won't be capable of heavy work,  not someone doing light non-manual jobs no reason they can't work till they drop " if they want".
But another thought , what about all the young people looking for jobs, they'll just have to wait another few years.


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## 19thagain (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket;953339

I know a number of Firefighters and they seem to have a lot of time on their hands said:
			
		


			You are possibly not aware that up here in Scotland we had a recent incident where a helicopter crashed into a pub and guess what ... we would give every fireman double their current pay and pension because we value them and the job they do.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			The point I tried to make in the op, was " A LOT of MANUAL workers" won't be capable of heavy work,  not someone doing light non-manual jobs no reason they can't work till they drop " if they want".
But another thought , what about all the young people looking for jobs, they'll just have to wait another few years.
		
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..or pick up the heavy work the older folks can't do and that they free up when moving to do light non-manual stuff.  Ok if the jobs pay the same - but they most likely won't


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

19thagain said:



			You are possibly not aware that up here in Scotland we had a recent incident where a helicopter crashed into a pub and guess what ... we would give every fireman double their current pay and pension because we value them and the job they do.
		
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Would we?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

19thagain said:



			You are possibly not aware that up here in Scotland we had a recent incident where a helicopter crashed into a pub and guess what ... we would give every fireman double their current pay and pension because we value them and the job they do.
		
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A lot of people do a lot of valuable jobs but don't get the chance to earn second wages and then strike when they aren't allowed all their cake

Military who have had to cover for Fireman on a number of occasions can't strike 

Policemen also 

Fireman whilst doing fantastic jobs are getting as bad as teachers - any time someone tries to change something they down tools


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Do firemen not retire on pension at age 55?
		
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Not any more.  If you are due to retire within 8 years you can still go when your 55 providing you have 30 years service.  For the rest (about 85%) its 40 years service or 65


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I know a number of Firefighters and they seem to have a lot of time on their hands, one at our golf club has a landscape gardening business.  I think we all are aware of the difficult job they do and IMO they are well rewarded for it, I have little sympathy for their current demands.
		
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The fact you've quoted are not quite correct and you say you have little sympathy so let me ask you something.......

You join the fire service and start paying 9% (Â£180 Per month) for a 2 thirds pension with no lump sum or half pension with a 100k lump sum you can collect when your 55

Then it gets anounced that you have to start paying 15% ( around Â£320 per month) and for the extra contribution they get to work 15 years longer and loose 25k of their lump sum.  But thats if they get to the pensionable age as the government have put fitness tests in place that 50% of 54 year old men would fail and 80% of over 56 year olds would fail.  WHEN you fail the fitness test the fire service will boot you out as there are no jobs to be tranfered into.   so could you imagine being 64 and fail a fitness test? You would loose the entire Â£75,000 lump sum and wouldnt qualify for you half pension either. Imagine being 6 months off the finish line!

By the way a fire fighter takes home Â£1520 after pension!

So how does that grab ya?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A lot of people do a lot of valuable jobs but don't get the chance to earn second wages and then strike when they aren't allowed all their cake
		
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Your so full of it.  Out of 50 fire fighters stationed at tamworth and burton not a single person has a second job. That finished when fire fighters got stopped sleeping on night shifts.  Any that do manage to stay awake and have a second job do so because Â£1520 to Â£1600 isnt enough money to pay their bills


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Your so full of it.  Out of 50 fire fighters stationed at tamworth and burton not a single person has a second job. That finished when fire fighters got stopped sleeping on night shifts.
		
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Yet I know people who work at Fire Stations near me and have a second job.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet I know people who work at Fire Stations near me and have a second job.
		
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Ask them how many people are at their station and what percentage have seconds jobs. I know over 70 fire fighters. One used to drive a taxi but jacked it In. So thats non out of 70


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			The fact you've quoted are not quite correct and you say you have little sympathy so let me ask you something.......

You join the fire service and start paying 9% (Â£180 Per month) for a 2 thirds pension with no lump sum or half pension with a 100k lump sum you can collect when your 55

Then it gets anounced that you have to start paying 15% ( around Â£320 per month) and for the extra contribution they get to work 15 years longer and loose 25k of their lump sum.  But thats if they get to the pensionable age as the government have put fitness tests in place that 50% of 54 year old men would fail and 80% of over 56 year olds would fail.  WHEN you fail the fitness test the fire service will boot you out as there are no jobs to be tranfered into.   so could you imagine being 64 and fail a fitness test? You would loose the entire Â£75,000 lump sum and wouldnt qualify for you half pension either. Imagine being 6 months off the finish line!

By the way a fire fighter takes home Â£1520 after pension!

So how does that grab ya?
		
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The Government has also done similar to police pensions, wouldn't be surprised if they aren't doing the same to Ambulance personnel & NHS staff.  In fact the only people whose pensions don't appear to have suffered the same fate are the Government.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Ask them how many people are at their station and what percentage have seconds jobs. I know over 70 fire fighters. One used to drive a taxi but jacked it In. So thats non out of 70
		
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And ? I know ones that have had second jobs 

I have also had to cover for them whilst they went on strike a number of times whilst they demanded more money, 

Would they cover for the military if we ever went on strike.

Military are also getting their pensions changed. They can't strike though


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And ? I know ones that have had second jobs 

I have also had to cover for them whilst they went on strike a number of times whilst they Ã¶demanded more money, 

Would they cover for the military if we ever went on strike.

Military are also getting their pensions changed. They can't strike though
		
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The last time the army stepped in was 9 YEARS ago.  So other than strike what should ff's do? Have you read the post I wrote about 6 posts ago? And demands more money! A ff was on 18k before them strikes. Thats Â£1100 a month after pension


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			The last time the army stepped in was 9 YEARS ago.  So other than strike what shoukd ff's do? Have you read the post I wrote about 6 posts ago? And demandes more money! A ff was on 18k before them strikes. Thats Â£1100 after pension
		
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Â£18k - compare that to your normal soldiers out there. They don't get the chance to strike. And it wasnt just the army that stepped in.

A trainee fire and earns 21K a year and when finished his training is on 30K a year !


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Â£18k - compare that to your normal soldiers out there. They don't get the chance to strike. And it wasnt just the army that stepped in.

A trainee fire and earns 21K a year and when finished his training is on 30K a year !
		
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Been on google have we ? And once again your wrong. Â£1950 whilst training (8 to 12 weeks)
Â£21500 durring probation (  2 to 3 years) then Â£28500 then on.  Before the strikes a fully trained ff was on 21 and 18 durring probation


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Been on google have we ? And once again your wrong. Â£1950 whilst training (8 to 12 weeks)
Â£21500 durring probation (  2 to 3 years) then Â£28500 then on.  Before the strikes a fully trained ff was on 21 and 18 durring probation
		
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Guess how much a newly qualified soldier gets ? The same solider that goes straight on Op's to work 6 months straight and isn't given 4 days off every 4 days worked. 

Firefights aren't hard done by financially - not by a long and they aren't the only people whose pensions have been changed.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess how much a newly qualified soldier gets ? The same solider that goes straight on Op's to work 6 months straight and isn't given 4 days off every 4 days worked. 

Firefights aren't hard done by financially - not by a long and they aren't the only people whose pensions have been changed.
		
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Are you for real? I personly think soldiers should get paid more than any public sector job and i'm not saying ff's are the only ones.  But my question to you is what you you do if your terms changed as I posted earlyer? Roll over and take it up the balloon knot?  Could you and your family manage on Â£220 less a month?  And your saying they shouldnt strike, well I for one would love to see the look on your face when two ff's in breathing aparatus come to your house thats on fire at the grand age of 64.  

And you want to think hard about that because that will happen if the government
Get their way. Any 64 year old soldiers in middle east at the moment?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess how much a newly qualified soldier gets ? The same solider that goes straight on Op's to work 6 months straight and isn't given 4 days off every 4 days worked
		
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Funny how you left out the 48 hours worked in them 4 days! And your firsr day off is spent in bed


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## JCW (Dec 5, 2013)

Every one has a right to withdraw labour , its a right won by others in the past that has given many a chance for better standard of living and be treated fairly and in some cases the rights has been abused by unions , The bosses will abuse the rights too if they can get away with it . I was lucky my Union Was ASLEF and we did very well , last real strike I was in was in july 1982 .........since then we have done very well without having to withdraw labour , sort out your own pensions and not hope the state does ..........EYG


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

JCW said:



			Every one has a right to withdraw labour , its a right won by others in the past that haos given many a chance for better standard of living and be treated fairly and in some cases the rights has been abused by unions , The bosses will abuse the rights too if they can get away with it . I was lucky my Union Was ASLEF and we did very well , last real strike I was in was in july 1982 .........since then we have done very well without having to withdraw labour , sort out your own pensions and not hope the state does ..........EYG
		
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Well said mate


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

JCW said:



			Every one has a right to withdraw labour , its a right won by others in the past that has given many a chance for better standard of living and be treated fairly and in some cases the rights has been abused by unions ,
		
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Not quite everyone


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Are you for real? I personly think soldiers should get paid more than any public sector job and i'm not saying ff's are the only ones.  But my question to you is what you you do if your terms changed as I posted earlyer? Roll over and take it up the balloon knot?  Could you and your family manage on Â£220 less a month?  And your saying they shouldnt strike, well I for one would love to see the look on your face when two ff's in breathing aparatus come to your house thats on fire at the grand age of 64.  

And you want to think hard about that because that will happen if the government
Get their way. Any 64 year old soldiers in middle east at the moment?
		
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Again other people have had their pensions changed but they can't strike

When they do strike people who get paid less than them cover for them whilst they demand more money. 

Times are tough in the world - people struggle for work , some people have had to take massive pay cuts just to stay in work , thousands get made redundant on a weekly basis - many people in the country have had to make financial sacrifices to stay afloat. Military haven't had a pay rise in years - they can't strike, they have it accept it and find a way to get by. 

Soldiers retire in their 40's , or 55 then need to go out and get another job until they get a state pension. 

Why should a ff retire at 55 and not have to work again when other people have too


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Are you for real? I personly think soldiers should get paid more than any public sector job and i'm not saying ff's are the only ones.  But my question to you is what you you do if your terms changed as I posted earlyer? Roll over and take it up the balloon knot?  Could you and your family manage on Â£220 less a month?  And your saying they shouldnt strike, well I for one would love to see the look on your face when two ff's in breathing aparatus come to your house thats on fire at the grand age of 64.  

And you want to think hard about that because that will happen if the government
Get their way. Any 64 year old soldiers in middle east at the moment?
		
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You are good at exaggerating. You quote a probationary FF wage as if its what they are all on.  You know that the current proposal is for Firemen to get a retirement pension at 60 and they can retire earlier on a scaled down pension.   What hard done by with that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Funny how you left out the 48 hours worked in them 4 days! And your firsr day off is spent in bed
		
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It's not a hard shift - I did it for over 15 years !! I even did the two days two nights then only two days off. It's not hard.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

JCW said:



			Every one has a right to withdraw labour , its a right won by others in the past that has given many a chance for better standard of living and be treated fairly and in some cases the rights has been abused by unions , The bosses will abuse the rights too if they can get away with it . I was lucky my Union Was ASLEF and we did very well , last real strike I was in was in july 1982 .........since then we have done very well without having to withdraw labour , sort out your own pensions and not hope the state does ..........EYG
		
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Not everyone has the right to withdraw labour - police and military can't


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Not quite everyone
		
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The unemployed for instance. except in the thirties maybe ??


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again other people have had their pensions changed but they can't strike

When they do strike people who get paid less than them cover for them whilst they demand more money. 

Times are tough in the world - people struggle for work , some people have had to take massive pay cuts just to stay in work , thousands get made redundant on a weekly basis - many people in the country have had to make financial sacrifices to stay afloat. Military haven't had a pay rise in years - they can't strike, they have it accept it and find a way to get by. 

Soldiers retire in their 40's , or 55 then need to go out and get another job until they get a state pension. 

Why should a ff retire at 55 and not have to work again when other people have too
		
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First of all because the vast majority of public sector pay Alot less than 15% pension. My sister is a teacher and pays 5%

And second,  because the job takes alot out of your body.  I've lost count of how many ff's have had back opps at the age of 40.  Believe me after 30 years of service the fire service have had their money out of you. Least they can do is let you enjoy your last few years on thid plannet.  Average age for death in the fire service is 63. However that is increasing with H&S at work regs


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

19thagain said:



			You are possibly not aware that up here in Scotland we had a recent incident where a helicopter crashed into a pub and guess what ... we would give every fireman double their current pay and pension because we value them and the job they do.
		
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We have all seen it, its ben in the National News.??

The Firemen did their job but what exactly did they do to deserve twice their pay?


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## JCW (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not everyone has the right to withdraw labour - police and military can't
		
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 I think you find they can , its a human right , but they will breach the conditions of employment they signed up for so will face a disciplinary hearing ,  it be interesting if they all came out on strike , what then .....will never happen ................EYG


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not everyone has the right to withdraw labour - police and military can't
		
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Thats because their union sold them up the river. Police that is


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			First of all because the vast majority of public sector pay Alot less than 15% pension. My sister is a teacher and pays 5%

And second,  because the job takes alot out of your body.  I've lost count of how many ff's have had back opps at the age of 40.  Believe me after 30 years of service the fire service have had their money out of you. Least they can do is let you enjoy your last few years on thid plannet.  Average age for death in the fire service is 63. However that is increasing with H&S at work regs
		
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That's no different to the military - in fact would suggest it's even worse in the military for less pay than a fireman gets. 

After 30 years service a military bod needs to find another job - why shouldn't a ff have to do,the same


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

JCW said:



			I think you find they can , its a human right , but they will breach the conditions of employment they signed up for so will face a disciplinary hearing ,  it be interesting if they all came out on strike , what then .....will never happen ................EYG
		
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Actually they can't because it's in a royal charter that ensures the country is not left unguarded.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			You are good at exaggerating. You quote a probationary FF wage as if its what they are all on.  You know that the current proposal is for Firemen to get a retirement pension at 60 and they can retire earlier on a scaled down pension.   What hard done by with that?
		
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The age of 60 is beint changed this april to 65. Amd you can leave early on a lesser pension and that reduction is a joke. Its based on the Individual but its financial suicide to leave early


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

JCW said:



			I think you find they can , its a human right , but they will breach the conditions of employment they signed up for so will face a disciplinary hearing ,  it be interesting if they all came out on strike , what then .....will never happen ................EYG
		
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No the military can't, not unless you fancy a considerable period in the Military Corrective Training Centre at Colchester.  Act with others in withholding your labour and it then becomes mutiny - and a considerably longer stretch.  

You should be aware that not all human rights are 'absolute' rights.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually they can't because it's in a royal charter that ensures the country is not left unguarded.
		
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It would be called a mutiny or a rebellion not a strike.


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's no different to the military - in fact would suggest it's even worse in the military for less pay than a fireman gets. 

After 30 years service a military bod needs to find another job - why shouldn't a ff have to do,the same
		
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22 for the Army Phil


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a hard shift - I did it for over 15 years !! I even did the two days two nights then only two days off. It's not hard.
		
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Are you a fireman? If not then how the hell do you know its a easy shift. If you where a fireman then you must have been at a small station


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Where you a fireman? If not then how the hell do you know its a easy shift. If you where a fireman then you must have been at a small station
		
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Covered for them when they went on strike in Telford.

And have done lots of shifts in war zones so I know how tough a shift it can be.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			22 for the Army Phil
		
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Well it was 22 years for me also mate.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Covered for them when they went on strike in Telford.

And have done lots of shifts in war zones so I know how tough a shift it can be.
		
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Green godess doesnt really cut it mate.  So unless you've done more than a week on the current duty shift then you cant comment on a ff's work load. And you had beds back then too.

And as for shifts In war zones, thats like hardly ever and the rest of the time in the forces is easy, I know


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Green godess doesnt really cut it mate.  So unless you've done more than a week on the current duty shift then you cant comment on a ff's work load. And you had beds back then too.
		
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Fancy not being allowed a bed to go to on a night shift - shocking


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Fancy not being allowed a bed to go to on a night shift - shocking 

Click to expand...


They'll be carnage when they go after their slippers


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Green godess doesnt really cut it mate.  So unless you've done more than a week on the current duty shift then you cant comment on a ff's work load. And you had beds back then too.
		
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Yes Green Godess was inferior equipment but yet the military guys got the job done. Getting the job done whilst the ff stood outside warming their hands up. 

Sorry but I lost sympathy for ff a long time ago - a lot more people have it worse than them yet other people get on with it. 

And tell me why military people have to get another job when they leave because their pension isn't enough to see them through yet ff want a bigger pension so they don't have to work again ?!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			And as for shifts In war zones, thats like hardly ever and the rest of the time in the forces is easy, I know
		
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Are you taking the piss ?! Have you not seen what has been going on around the world since 91 - British forces have been deployed every single year.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes Green Godess was inferior equipment but yet the military guys got the job done. Getting the job done whilst the ff stood outside warming their hands up. 

Sorry but I lost sympathy for ff a long time ago - a lot more people have it worse than them yet other people get on with it. 

And tell me why military people have to get another job when they leave because their pension isn't enough to see them through yet ff want a bigger pension so they don't have to work again ?!
		
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Because the vast majority dont stay In long enough to get a full pension. Those that do a full term get a good pension for what they paid in. I only paid 4% ( I think)  a ff pays Â£300 a month.

And when did ff's ask for a bigger pension?  They want the same pension they agreed to when they signed on the dotted line.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			22 for the Army Phil
		
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After coming out of the military can you get any social money  i.e. unemployment, job seekers or the likes,  if you don't draw your pension. 
I know wasn't entitled to any benefits after my early retirement because I was drawing my a private pension. Could you freeze your pension and get some kind of benefits.
 A friend of mine somehow got all benefits going , he didn't claim his British steel pension for many years after being made redundant and let it grow untill till he was of full pension age. ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Because the vast majority dont stay In long enough to get a full pension. Those that do a full term get a good pension for what they paid in. I only paid 4% ( I think)  a ff pays Â£300 a month.

And when did ff's ask for a bigger pension?  They want the same pension they agreed to when they signed on the dotted line.
		
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Times change - the financial situation in the country has changed - people are having to make cuts all over the country. People are having wage cuts being made redundant and others are having to make sacrifices to make ends meet - why should ff be exempt from having to make sacrifices


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you taking the piss ?! Have you not seen what has been going on around the world since 91 - British forces have been deployed every single year.
		
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Iraq 2 was a joke. I was there. Afghan is a different story but most of the forces are in this country waiting to get deployed


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			After coming out of the military can you get any social money ,ie unemployment, job seekers or the likes if you don't draw your pension. 
I know wasn't entitled to anything because I was drawing my a private pension, but could you freeze your pension and get some kind of benefits.
 A friend of mine somehow got all benefits going , he didn't claim his British steel pension for many years after being made redundant and let it grow. till he was of full pension age. ?
		
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You can get housing and job seekers but only a small%


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Iraq 2 was a joke. I was there. Afghan is a different story but most of the forces are in this country waiting to get deployed
		
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You are taking the piss aren't you.

What exactly was funny about it when people died


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Iraq 2 was a joke.
		
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Ah yes, the conflict that left my wife 70% disabled - sorry what was the punchline again?

What were you in?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Times change - the financial situation in the country has changed - people are having to make cuts all over the country. People are having wage cuts being made redundant and others are having to make sacrifices to make ends meet - why should ff be exempt from having to make sacrifices
		
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So would you be happy and willing to accept the changes?  10 Years more service,  25 grand less and hurdles to cross first that will certainly stop you from getting your reduced Â£75,000 lump sum


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			The age of 60 is beint changed this april to 65. Amd you can leave early on a lesser pension and that reduction is a joke. Its based on the Individual but its financial suicide to leave early
		
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Are you a FF ?  If so have you actually read the Government proposal, you seem to have the typical blind prejudices  shown by their Unions.   It states a Full retirement age of 60, this will be reviewed in the future to be kept in line with changes in the retirement age generally. Where exactly do you get this 65 from?

For anyone interested here is a link to the current proposal: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...120524_-_Final_Agreement_-_Fire_-_FINALv2.pdf


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Ah yes, the conflict that left my wife 70% disabled - sorry what was the punchline again?


What were you in?
		
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Just a low life tanky QRH


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			After coming out of the military can you get any social money ,ie unemployment, job seekers or the likes if you don't draw your pension. 
I know wasn't entitled to anything because I was drawing my a private pension, but could you freeze your pension and get some kind of benefits.
 A friend of mine somehow got all benefits going , he didn't claim his British steel pension for many years after being made redundant and let it grow. till he was of full pension age. ?
		
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I don't think not taking your pension is ever discussed TBH.  I wasn't entitled to anything apart from my NI contributions being paid.

It needs to be remembered that our pensions are fixed from leaving at 40 until the age of 55, so in real terms decreasing in value all the while.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			So would you be happy and willing to accept the changes?  10 Years more service,  25 grand less and hurdles to cross first that will certainly stop you from getting your reduced Â£75,000 lump sum
		
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No wouldn't be happy but had to accept it - imagine getting a reduced lump sum - how many other jobs when you finish give you more than a fecking tankard !!. 

Country is in debt and people have to make sacrifices - but not fireman. That aren't willing to make them and instead down tools and let other people cover their arse. Selfish - the lot of them.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you a FF ?  If so have you actually read the Government proposal, you seem to have the typical blind prejudices  shown by their Unions.   It states a Full retirement age of 60, this will be reviewed in the future to be kept in line with changes in the retirement age generally. Where exactly do you get this 65 from?

For anyone interested here is a link to the current proposal: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...120524_-_Final_Agreement_-_Fire_-_FINALv2.pdf

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Yes I am. And to qualify for full pension its 40 years service or upto 65 what ever comes
First.  The proposal you state is for green book staff and since last week out of date. You have may 2012 edition there buddy


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			So would you be happy and willing to accept the changes?  10 Years more service,  25 grand less and hurdles to cross first that will certainly stop you from getting your reduced Â£75,000 lump sum
		
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Complete fabrication.    Show us evidence!

I think you will find most working people in this country would bite your hand off for the proposed conditions.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Yes I am. And to qualify for full pension its 40 years service or upto 65 what ever comes
First.  The proposal you state is for green book staff and since last week out of date. You have may 2012 edition there buddy
		
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That is the current one from the Governments web site.   So where is there a newer version we can see then?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No wouldn't be happy but had to accept it - imagine getting a reduced lump sum - how many other jobs when you finish give you more than a fecking tankard !!. 


Country is in debt and people have to make sacrifices - but not fireman. That aren't willing to make them and instead down tools and let other people cover their arse. Selfish - the lot of them.
		
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You make it sound like we want something for free. 15% is a hell of alot of money to pay into a pension when you only take home Â£1520.  And ff's absolutely hate striking. You go on as if we love it. We dont.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			That is the current one from the Governments web site.   So where is there a newer version we can see then?
		
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As desputes are on going their isnt one. The one that dates june 2013 was withdrawn from by the government because we went on strike


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			You make it sound like we want something for free. 15% is a hell of alot of money to pay into a pension when you only take home Â£1520.  And ff's absolutely hate striking. You go on as if we love it. We dont.
		
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Doesn't a fireman earn 30 grand a year before tax ? Where is the rest of his money going then ? 

Some people would kill to get that much a month.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Complete fabrication.    Show us evidence!

I think you will find most working people in this country would bite your hand off for the proposed conditions.
		
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If u pm me your email I will send you a government paper where their own doctor said we could work past 56. And they chose to ignor their own finding. Funny how that doesnt make the mirror


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			As desputes are on going their isnt one. The one that dates june 2013 was withdrawn from by the government because we went on strike
		
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The attached link is a letter to all FF from Brandon Lewis explaining the current proposals and is dated 6 Nov 2013. It says clearly that the retirement age is 60.

I ask again where you get 65 from?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...131105-BL_Open_Letter_to_Firefighters__2_.pdf


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesn't a fireman earn 30 grand a year before tax ? Where is the rest of his money going then ? 


Some people would kill to get that much a month.
		
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Yes and some people would slit their wrist if they only earnt that. So what your saying is because their are people in this country worse off than me I should be greatfull for the goverments mercy and take it on the chin?  All I want is what I agreed to when I joined. It wouldnt be such a bitter pill to swallow if they didnt recently increase their pension benefits.

Ff earns 28.500 after tax, pension and Â£10 brigade golf fee I get Â£1520 to Â£1605


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The attached link is a letter to all FF from Brandon Lewis explaining the current proposals and is dated 6 Nov 2013. It says clearly that the retirement age is 60.

I ask again where you get 65 from?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...131105-BL_Open_Letter_to_Firefighters__2_.pdf

Click to expand...


I bet everyone would jump at those terms.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The attached link is a letter to all FF from Brandon Lewis explaining the current proposals and is dated 6 Nov 2013. It says clearly that the retirement age is 60.

I ask again where you get 65 from?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...131105-BL_Open_Letter_to_Firefighters__2_.pdf

Click to expand...

A draft proposal given to us by the union chair. I cant imagine its confidential so I would be happy to pm it to you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Yes and some people would slit their wrist if they only earnt that. So what your saying is because their are people in this country worse off than me I should be greatfull for the goverments mercy and take it on the chin?  All I want is what I agreed to when I joined. It wouldnt be such a bitter pill to swallow if they didnt recently increase their pension benefits.

Ff earns 28.500 after tax, pension and Â£10 brigade golf fee I get Â£1520 to Â£1605
		
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So it's not 1500 then pension off as you stated earlier ? 

If you don't like the terms you could go and get a different job. 

The times have changed. Time for the firemen to understand that.

If times are so bad for you then I m guessing you can't afford the money to be a member at the Belfry


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I bet everyone would jump at those terms.
		
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The biggest grip not mention in that document is the fitness tests.  The government doctor and consultant even said we shouldnt be working past 56 and to give us desk jobs. But there are alot more ff's than office staff


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			The biggest grip not mention in that document is the fitness tests.  The government doctor and consultant even said we shouldnt be working past 56 and to give us desk jobs. But there are alot more ff's than office staff
		
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If you can't work as a ff past 56 what is wrong with leaving and getting another job just like military people have too ( who still do fitness tests also )


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's not 1500 then pension off as you stated earlier ? 

If you don't like the terms you could go and get a different job. 

The times have changed. Time for the firemen to understand that.

If times are so bad for you then I m guessing you can't afford the money to be a member at the Belfry
		
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I dont remember saying 1500 then take pension off. Maybe I did! And when
Did I say times are bad?  just saying people think ff'sand police have it easy. We dont. I think people like you should have more respect for people that are employed to help you and your family rather then slag us down by calling us cake eaters. All we want is the term we agreed to. You will be the first person moaning when a 64 year old ff leaves your family in a burning building because he's popped a disk.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you can't work as a ff past 56 what is wrong with leaving and getting another job just like military people have too ( who still do fitness tests also )
		
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Nothings wrong with that at all. just all the benefits of the years spent building up your pension are gone. If you left/forced even a year early you loose your lump sum.  Â£75k is alot of money to loose


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			The biggest grip not mention in that document is the fitness tests.  The government doctor and consultant even said we shouldnt be working past 56 and to give us desk jobs. But there are alot more ff's than office staff
		
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Read the Open letter I attached.  It explains clearly the situation regarding fitness and how the tests would be applied and they sound very reasonable.   If it's that bad how come its been accepted by the Scottish Fire Fighters?

Who exactly do you think should finance your unaffordable existing conditions?    Is it fair that many hard working tax payers who earn much less with vastly inferior or non existent pensions should prop you up?  You don't seem to get the fact that the country is massively in debt and having to borrow billions a month to pay for these things.  If the country went bankrupt you would get nothing.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Read the Open letter I attached.  It explains clearly the situation regarding fitness and how the tests would be applied and they sound very reasonable.   If it's that bad how come its been accepted by the Scottish Fire Fighters?



Who exactly do you think should finance your unaffordable existing conditions?    Is it fair that many hard working tax payers who earn much less with vastly inferior or non existent pensions should prop you up?  You don't seem to get the fact that the country is massively in debt and having to borrow billions a month to pay for these things.  If the country went bankrupt you would get nothing.
		
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The scottish ff's argreed a ten year protection on pensions ( they still wasnt happy though) but this is where it gets crafty by the scotts. If england and wales fail to improve the terms then scotland keep theirs as it was already agreed. If england and wales win then the scottish ff's get the fruits of that too as its a uk agreement. Not bad ey! So thats why the scotts agreed it  And ff pensions are funded by Incoming ff's. Kind of self sustaining. But as the government of cutting the amount
Of Ff's by a large amount the sums ent adding up. As for the fitness test. Its very easy for 30 year man but almost impossible for a man over 56 and women over 49


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			I dont remember saying 1500 then take pension off. Maybe I did! And when
Did I say times are bad?  just saying people think ff'sand police have it easy. We dont. I think people like you should have more respect for people that are employed to help you and your family rather then slag us down by calling us cake eaters. All we want is the term we agreed to. You will be the first person moaning when a 64 year old ff leaves your family in a burning building because he's popped a disk.
		
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There you go, it's 64 now.   I guess he would turn up on his own, or in a crew only made up of 60 year olds? 

No one has belittled the job FF do when on duty, the discussion is about terms and conditions.   What has happened in the past is unaffordable and if you sat back and thought about it you should be able to understand that.  The proposals currently offered seem very fair and represent a package that still rewards the special job FF do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			I dont remember saying 1500 then take pension off. Maybe I did! And when
Did I say times are bad?  just saying people think ff'sand police have it easy. We dont. I think people like you should have more respect for people that are employed to help you and your family rather then slag us down by calling us cake eaters. All we want is the term we agreed to. You will be the first person moaning when a 64 year old ff leaves your family in a burning building because he's popped a disk.
		
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Sorry but lost respect for firemen a long time ago and not much will change every time they go on strike. And you are certainly not helping my family out when you are on strike are you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Nothings wrong with that at all. just all the benefits of the years spent building up your pension are gone. If you left/forced even a year early you loose your lump sum.  Â£75k is alot of money to loose
		
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If you left on your own choice then that is your own choice.

What do you mean "forced" to leave ? You don't lose benefits earned - certainly doesn't say that in the letter SR posted up


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			There you go, it's 64 now.   I guess he would turn up on his own, or in a crew only made up of 60 year olds? 

No one has belittled the job FF do when on duty, the discussion is about terms and conditions.   What has happened in the past is unaffordable and if you sat back and thought about it you should be able to understand that.  The proposals currently offered seem very fair and represent a package that still rewards the special job FF do.
		
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Your not getting it.

Imagine you and you wife start planning for retirement. You've spent 39 years paying in 300 a month into your pension. Thats Â£120,000.  You wife says " lets sell up and move to the country or spain.  Then you perform a manditory fitness test that the government doctor said at 54 you only stand a 40% chance of passing.  You then think " bloody hell, i'm 59"  AND YOU FAIL ( which according to the governments doctor is more likely than not.  You go home and tell your wife you sacked and forget the 75 k lump sum, Its gone!!!!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Sorry but what is this lump sum of Â£75 grand you keep,referring too and why would you lose it ?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what is this lump sum of Â£75 grand you keep,referring too and why would you lose it ?
		
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At the moment its 100k but changing to 75.  You can either choose a two thirds pension and no lump sum or a half pension with a 75k lump sum.  If you choose the latter you only get it if you complete the full term.  A guy at work died 3 days before retirement and his wife didnt get it. The union took them to court and won but thats a different story


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Is this a private pension plan you are taking about or a government funded one ? 

Can you post up the exact details of the changes


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			And ff pensions are funded by Incoming ff's. Kind of self sustaining. But as the government of cutting the amount Of Ff's by a large amount the sums ent adding up. As for the fitness test. Its very easy for 30 year man but almost impossible for a man over 56 and women over 49
		
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The FF pensions are not funded by by incoming FF payments.  The vast amount is funded by the exchequer, there is no big box at the treasury where your contributions sit to pay for pensions.   Think about it: If a FF average salary over 30 years was Â£30K and he paid 15% into his pension he would pay Â£4.5K a year, so he would pay Â£135K into the pension pot.  That would buy him a pension of something like Â£6k a year on the market with no lump sum.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this a private pension plan you are taking about or a government funded one ? 

Can you post up the exact details of the changes
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ghters__2_.pdf


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but lost respect for firemen a long time ago and not much will change every time they go on strike. And you are certainly not helping my family out when you are on strike are you.
		
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Easy fix. if your house is on fire or you've crashed your car dont call us.  And did you know that when we are on strikes the pumps are still available?  Crewed by retained fireman, officers and private ferms (london only)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ghters__2_.pdf

Click to expand...


Yeah read that but can't see where the poster is getting his info from because it doesn't seem to reflect what he is saying


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but lost respect for firemen a long time ago and not much will change every time they go on strike. And you are certainly not helping my family out when you are on strike are you.[/QUOTEOi ! you guys are messing up my thread.  Who would you prefer to fight our fires and defend our country against enemies  fire fighters , armed forces. or members of the  governing bodies who NEVER get pay cuts and their pensions and pay offs get bigger. lets not fight between ourselves.
		
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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The FF pensions are not funded by by incoming FF payments.  The vast amount is funded by the exchequer, there is no big box at the treasury where your contributions sit to pay for pensions.   Think about it: If a FF average salary over 30 years was Â£30K and he paid 15% into his pension he would pay Â£4.5K a year, so he would pay Â£135K into the pension pot.  That would buy him a pension of something like Â£6k a year on the market with no lump sum.
		
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With ff's dieing very soon after retirement the new blood comin in vastly out weighed the old. However, with the mortality rate increasing and cutts to front line jobs it become unsustaible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Easy fix. if your house is on fire or you've crashed your car dont call us.  And did you know that when we are on strikes the pumps are still available?  Crewed by retained fireman, officers and private ferms (london only)
		
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Actually I will still call the fire service to do the job they are handsomely paid ( with my taxes ) to do.

But your attitude is exactly why I lost respect for firemen - well it started when I was doing their job for them ( and not getting any money for and having to work a lot of extra hours  )


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ghters__2_.pdf

Click to expand...

Iike I said I would be happy to provide details of the proposed changes. The union and ministers are talking today and tomorrow.  I will ask if the document is Confidential before I put it on a public forum


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Iike I said I would be happy to provide details of the proposed changes. The union and ministers are talking today and tomorrow.  I will ask if the document is Confidential before I put it on a public forum
		
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So,that document isn't the proposed changes then ? Despite it being a couple weeks old ?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So,that document isn't the proposed changes then ? Despite it being a couple weeks old ?
		
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 when the union and ministers closed the doors today it become an old Document.  But thats assuming we will get something from the meeting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

What was wrong with that document and what they were offering ?

Still get overtime ?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What was wrong with that document and what they were offering ?

Still get overtime ?
		
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Overtime? Whats that.

What i'm saying phil is the government are purposely putting hurdles in our way to stop us getting our full pension. 75 grand times 45,000 fire fighters is alot. I will do my upmost to get the findings from the governments doctor/ consultant with regards to his finds. Its In black and white that we cant work that long and the tests are not obtainable.  For them to ignor that advice because it doesnt suit them is shocking.  Like I said, it didnt look like a confidential doc so leave it with me. Its a bloody good read too!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			With ff's dieing very soon after retirement the new blood comin in vastly out weighed the old. However, with the mortality rate increasing and cutts to front line jobs it become unsustaible.
		
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Like I said earlier, I know a number of FF.   They don't seem to die just after retirement, can you show us some kind of evidence to substantiate that claim?   My Grandfather was a Fireman, he was retired with poor health from the Brigade at 35 and died at 96 after drawing a pension for 61 years.   Must have been some kind of record    And its a true story.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Like I said earlier, I know a number of FF.   They don't seem to die just after retirement, can you show us some kind of evidence to substantiate that claim?   My Grandfather was a Fireman, he was retired with poor health from the Brigade at 35 and died at 96 after drawing a pension for 61 years.   Must have been some kind of record    And its a true story.
		
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I dont have them in my back pocket but I wont be hard to get them.  it is very sad when ever I start a new shift I always have a new email saying " death of former colleague"  i'm talking 55 to 60 year old blokes here. perhaps its what happens when you spend all day with the wife

And I cerainly dont mean any disrespect but him retiring early probable saved him yeards of breathing in chemicals and stuff. They hardly used breathing apparatus back then you see


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			Overtime? Whats that.

What i'm saying phil is the government are purposely putting hurdles in our way to stop us getting our full pension. 75 grand times 45,000 fire fighters is alot. I will do my upmost to get the findings from the governments doctor/ consultant with regards to his finds. Its In black and white that we cant work that long and the tests are not obtainable.  For them to ignor that advice because it doesnt suit them is shocking.  Like I said, it didnt look like a confidential doc so leave it with me. Its a bloody good read too!
		
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So those findings disagree with the ones in that other document where it says that 100% of fireman can pass the fitness test 

So what exactly was wrong with what was being offered in that document. ?

Seemed fair and reasonable to me.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2013)

hovis said:



			I dont have them in my back pocket but I wont be hard to get them.  it is very sad when ever I start a new shift I always have a new email saying " death of former colleague"  i'm talking 55 to 60 year old blokes here. perhaps its what happens when you spend all day with the wife
		
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But why?  The guys I know all seem healthy, they tend to keep fit.   Are you suggesting the nature of the work damages their health such that they die in their 50's?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So those findings disagree with the ones in that other document where it says that 100% of fireman can pass the fitness test 

So what exactly was wrong with what was being offered in that document. ?

Seemed fair and reasonable to me.
		
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The increased contributions and working longer.

How can anyone say 100% can pass.  the fitness test is unfair! Thats not my oppinion, thats the oppinion of the governments consultant


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## NWJocko (Dec 6, 2013)

hovis said:



			The increased contributions and working longer
		
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Don't want to state the obvious but that's what everyone is having to do!?

Edit: to add there are probably less than 5% of private sector workers looking at a lump sum of Â£75k. Not in any way belittling what you do, just a bit of perspective.w


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

hovis said:



			The increased contributions and working longer.

How can anyone say 100% can pass.  the fitness test is unfair! Thats not my oppinion, thats the oppinion of the governments consultant
		
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Everyone has to work longer and increase contributions ? Why should you be any different ?

And in that document Dr Williams states all can pass the fitness test ? Where is your proof to counter ?


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			But why?  The guys I know all seem healthy, they tend to keep fit.   Are you suggesting the nature of the work damages their health such that they die in their 50's?
		
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In my opinion Yes. I personly think that loosing the beds was for the best because when your awake its no big deal.  Imagine 30 years of being asleep and being woken up by an almighty siren. Even in the day I have to first scrape mself off the ceiling when the bells drop.  Imagine what imact going from deep sleep to full chaff does on your body.  I only had o e year of the beds and that was enough.  There are figures out there with life expectancy so i'll get them


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everyone has to work longer and increase contributions ? Why should you be any different ?

And in that document Dr Williams states all can pass the fitness test ? Where is your proof to counter ?
		
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Do you read mate. I said I will get the papers. I dont keep them on me. But having personly done the test and seeing my 48 year old boss scrape though I can tell you. They ent easy


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

hovis said:



			Do you read mate. I said I will get the papers. I dont keep them on me. But having personly done the test and seeing my 48 year old boss scrape though I can tell you. They ent easy
		
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And why should you be different to everyone else in terms of working longer and contributing more ?


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And why should you be different to everyone else in terms of working longer and contributing more ?
		
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I've just googled dr williams fire fitness test and the first bbc news page has a report from him saying all cannot pass the test. What are you smoking.

But all are not contributing more. Teachers and social workers ent. Teacher pay 5% and get almost the same pension as we do


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

hovis said:



			I've just googled dr williams fire fitness test and the first bbc news page has a report from him saying all cannot pass the test. What are you smoking.

But all are not contributing more. Teachers and social workers ent. Teacher pay 5% and get almost the same pension as we do
		
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Think you will find they get less and work longer


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Think you will find they pay 14%
		
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I'm speculating here as I dont pay attention when my Sisters taking to me but it depends on how old they are when they join. My sister is only 24 and pays 5% I THINK if u join later u pay more


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

hovis said:



			I've just googled dr williams fire fitness test and the first bbc news page has a report from him saying all cannot pass the test. What are you smoking.

But all are not contributing more. Teachers and social workers ent. Teacher pay 5% and get almost the same pension as we do
		
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Did you read this ?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...131105-BL_Open_Letter_to_Firefighters__2_.pdf

In particular this bit

*Dr
Williams in his independent
report found that 100 per cent
of firefighters, following an
appropriate exercise regime,
should be able to maintain fitness to the age of
60. *


I do believe their pension is considerbly less and they work for longer.


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## chris661 (Dec 6, 2013)

Chaps this is wandering very close to getting silly. Try and keep it on topic and if needed start your own thread to discuss whatever you like.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Chaps this is wandering very close to getting silly. Try and keep it on topic and if needed start your own thread to discuss whatever you like.
		
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With respect we are talking about retirement age and not throwing toys out of prams.


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## chris661 (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			With respect we are talking about retirement age and not throwing toys out of prams.
		
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With respect I can read and who mentioned throwing toys out of prams


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## Crazyface (Dec 6, 2013)

So we work longer and deprive the kids of work. They will increase the school leaving age to 25 to compensate. LMFAO !!!! Clowns, the lot of 'em.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Chaps this is wandering very close to getting silly. Try and keep it on topic and if needed start your own thread to discuss whatever you like.
		
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I'm learning quite a bit from this thread, I would imagine others are as well.


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## JCW (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'm learning quite a bit from this thread, I would imagine others are as well.
		
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Yeah maybe its gone on a bit now , I paid 15% and the company in nearly double , All this you have to work to 70 thing is not correct , again its your choice , I took my pension and lump sum at 54 , many said , ooh you lose a lot , best go at 60 , 62 , or 65 , all I say to that is you could be dead at 59 , only you know when its right for you to retire , get a part time job , its down to you and if you plan it right early enough then its its easy , I be going back to work again next year but part time with another company and its 80 hours a month which I could do in the 1st week then that's it till next month , the choice is mine if I work any more , I do 5 more years I think then that's it with another pension and lump sump , the choice is always yours , I wanted my lump sum now to do what I want now not at 65 and with so many rule changes to pensions I am glad I did , that my last say on this .............EYG


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

As I said on the Â£Â£Â£ pension thread, IMO if you have had a busy/physical job one of the worst things you can do is suddenly stop work.
I retired as a LGO aged 55 with a decent pension. I worked for another 3 years full time then part time in various no pressure jobs that I really enjoyed. Stopped all work when I was 63 and my wife got her pension.
Firemen/Police/Teachers etc have generally taken that route.
My daughter works for the Scottish National Trust and the biggest part of their staff in Ayrshire are retired former 'government ' staff.


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## CMAC (Dec 6, 2013)

havent read the five pages but isnt it 68 proposed?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

As an aside to the cry of unfair from today's generation about the 'extra' years they will have to put in to the system.

I worked for two summers from the age of 13 then full time from the age of 15
In my first job I worked 6 day weeks at an average of 50 hours a week for Â£3 a week.
I have worked non stop for 50 years. No gap years, never unemployed, very seldom sick. 

Todays youngsters will leave school aged 19 years.
Provided they do not go on to uni/college/further education once the have completed 50 years work they will be aged 69.
If they spend 4 years at uni they will be aged 73 on completion of 50 years work.


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## CMAC (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As an aside to the cry of unfair from today's generation about the 'extra' years they will have to put in to the system.

I worked for two summers from the age of 13 then full time from the age of 15
In my first job I worked 6 day weeks at an average of 50 hours a week for Â£3 a week.
I have worked non stop for 50 years. No gap years, never unemployed, very seldom sick. 

Todays youngsters will leave school aged 19 years.
Provided they do not go on to uni/college/further education once the have completed 50 years work they will be aged 69.
If they spend 4 years at uni they will be aged 73 on completion of 50 years work.
		
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You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.


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## stevie_r (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As an aside to the cry of unfair from today's generation about the 'extra' years they will have to put in to the system.

I worked for two summers from the age of 13 then full time from the age of 15
In my first job I worked 6 day weeks at an average of 50 hours a week for Â£3 a week.
I have worked non stop for 50 years. No gap years, never unemployed, very seldom sick. 

Todays youngsters will leave school aged 19 years.
Provided they do not go on to uni/college/further education once the have completed 50 years work they will be aged 69.
If they spend 4 years at uni they will be aged 73 on completion of 50 years work.
		
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Except the ones that leave at 16 of course


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2013)

Despite what call me Dave may believe raising the pension age will not be the cure all for this countries financial woes....

Judging by this thread though... He is managing the divide and rule bit quite well...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

CMAC said:



			You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
		
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Luxury!
I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

Look at us now Eh! Fireman with Landscape gardening jobs.    If you told them today they wouldnt believe you


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Luxury!
I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

Look at us now Eh! Fireman with Landscape gardening jobs.    If you told them today they wouldnt believe you 

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Laugh if you like.
Some of us had to struggle like mad to make our way.

I had my first holiday aged 28.
I know times change and I had a much easier life than my father.
He was still in charge of 30 staff and 3 golf courses at the age of 67.
He only enjoyed 2 years retirement after a life of toil. [and a tough WW2]


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Laugh if you like.
Some of us had to struggle like mad to make our way.

I had my first holiday aged 28.
I know times change and I had a much easier life than my father.
He was still in charge of 30 staff and 3 golf courses at the age of 67.
He only enjoyed 2 years retirement after a life of toil. [and a tough WW2]
		
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Sense of humour bypass EH!    I could tell you a few things about tough times Trooney but unlike you I don't have the need to wear my heart on my sleeve.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My daughter works for the Scottish National Trust and the biggest part of their staff in Ayrshire are retired former 'government ' staff.
		
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All having parties in the big hoose down Culzean way then


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Sense of humour bypass EH!    I could tell you a few things about tough times Trooney but unlike you I don't have the need to wear my heart on my sleeve.
		
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I have a very healthy sense of humour but I am starting to become a bit concerned about being stalked !


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have a very healthy sense of humour but I am starting to become a bit concerned about being stalked !
		
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Stalked?    You jumped in on the thread with your hard up story!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2013)

Help he's here again!!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Help he's here again!!
		
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