# Etiquette



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 7, 2016)

The one thing I always try and be is polite on the course and try and ensure I follow good etiquette on the course 

For me the basics are 

Repair pitchmarks
Rake bunkers
Be quiet and still when someone is playing their shot
Try to keep up with the group in front
Allow the quicker group behind to come through at the earliest opportunity 
Don't walk on people's lines on the green
Recognise the signs on the course and abide by them 

I'm sure others have more that they consider part of the basic fabric when playing BUT over the last 3 weeks I have seen more and more ignorant people on the golf course failing to abide by the most basic of etiquette - this morning alone people shouting and chatting whilst people playing shots , bunkers full of footprints , greens covered in pitch marks and a lot of the time it's from golfers who have been around and playing for a long time 

Recently there was a thread asking should people have a basic grasp of the rules before playing comps 

Well IMO people should have a basic grasp of course etiquette before being allowed to play any round of golf


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## Tongo (Mar 7, 2016)

You could substitute etiquette for manners. And its not really surprising that the lack / reduction of basic manners in society is replicated on the golf course.


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## Junior (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Repair pitchmarks
Rake bunkers
Be quiet and still when someone is playing their shot
Try to keep up with the group in front
Allow the quicker group behind to come through at the earliest opportunity 
Don't walk on people's lines on the green
Recognise the signs on the course and abide by them
		
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Sums it up nicely to me.  As long as people enjoy themselves aswell and don't get moody or angry to the point of not even talking with their PP!!!  We all duff shots and swear, maybe even helicopter a club , but laugh about it and don't be bad company !!!


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## Leereed (Mar 7, 2016)

I agree. At ours we have rakes at every bunker.The amount of footprints is terrible and on most occasions it looks like they have stepped over the rake to get in/out of the bunker.And you can easily repair 3-4 pitch marks on most greens.


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## fundy (Mar 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I always try and be is polite on the course and try and ensure I follow good etiquette on the course 

For me the basics are 

Repair pitchmarks
Rake bunkers
Be quiet and still when someone is playing their shot
Try to keep up with the group in front
Allow the quicker group behind to come through at the earliest opportunity 
Don't walk on people's lines on the green
Recognise the signs on the course and abide by them 

I'm sure others have more that they consider part of the basic fabric when playing BUT over the last 3 weeks I have seen more and more ignorant people on the golf course failing to abide by the most basic of etiquette - this morning alone people shouting and chatting whilst people playing shots , bunkers full of footprints , greens covered in pitch marks and a lot of the time it's from golfers who have been around and playing for a long time 

Recently there was a thread asking should people have a basic grasp of the rules before playing comps 

Well IMO people should have a basic grasp of course etiquette before being allowed to play any round of golf
		
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Think you'll find my hour was for rules and etiquette


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## rudebhoy (Mar 7, 2016)

on the subject of allowing folk to play through, was playing yesterday and noticed a guy playing on his own behind us, catching us up.

when we were about to play our second shots on the 5th, I saw he was on the tee, so waved him through. He played through pretty slowly (he was a fairly old guy), but totally ignored the fairway protection rule in place and played his 2nd and 3rd from the middle of the fairway.

We let him go on his way, but when we got to the par 5 6th, there was no sign of him - he had obviously jumped over to the par 3 15th to play the last 4 holes.

Was he out of order for accepting our invitation to play through, given he had no intention of playing the next hole?


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## Robster59 (Mar 7, 2016)

I think this video is a must for anyone, either new or as a reminder to regular golfers.
[video=youtube;8lwOqDZLjug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lwOqDZLjug[/video]


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 7, 2016)

Agree with the basis premise of the OP and the list is pretty self explanatory. I think however it's something that comes with time and so new golfers are necessarily going to be fully clued up on how to behave on the course. If golf is to grow then it needs to be accessible and it needs to lose the stuffy image it has which a lot of people would recognise as etiquette. 

That said, as a member of a club I do expect my fellow members to have a grasp of the etiquette and not repairing pitch marks is an absolute bug bear of mine and something that seems to be getting worse. Not sure how that improves as with slow play, it seems it's always someone else causing the problem


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Mar 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agree with the basis premise of the OP and the list is pretty self explanatory. I think however it's something that comes with time and so new golfers are necessarily going to be fully clued up on how to behave on the course.* If golf is to grow then it needs to be accessible and it needs to lose the stuffy image it has which a lot of people would recognise as etiquette*. 

That said, as a member of a club I do expect my fellow members to have a grasp of the etiquette and not repairing pitch marks is an absolute bug bear of mine and something that seems to be getting worse. Not sure how that improves as with slow play, it seems it's always someone else causing the problem
		
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So to encourage people to start playing we abandon all of the points highlighted by the OP ???


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 7, 2016)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			So to encourage people to start playing we abandon all of the points highlighted by the OP ???
		
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How many new golfers do you know who know all of the etiquette LP listed especially pitch marks. They should, but I've played enough societies and seen enough new golfers on a local muni who are keen but don't know what to do. It's surely about teaching them while not alienating them from the game


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Mar 7, 2016)

I agree with you education of new and not so new players is very necessary, however your first post seemed to advocate the abandonment of good etiquette in an attempt to attract players,


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 7, 2016)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			I agree with you education of new and not so new players is very necessary, however your first post seemed to advocate the abandonment of good etiquette in an attempt to attract players,
		
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Not at all but by the same token seeing someone clearly new to the game not raking a bunker or repairing a pitch mark shouldn't automatically invoke the tut tut attitude I know is prevalent amongst a lot of club members everywhere. Many forget they were new to golf once. It's something I have an issue with when older golfers take junior members for task for what seem minor offences (shirt untucked on the putting green) when a quiet word to the wise would be far better received and have a longer lasting effect


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## PieMan (Mar 7, 2016)

I thought LP's etiquette in Kent was disgraceful - leaving the pub before closing time was totally unacceptable  :whoo:


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## richart (Mar 7, 2016)

PieMan said:



			I thought LP's etiquette in Kent was disgraceful - leaving the pub before closing time was totally unacceptable  :whoo:
		
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 and locking his mate out of the hotel, and then going to asleep. I could have frozen to death, and would he have cared ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

How could LP omit observance of the HNSP when others are teeing off - tut LP - how remiss of you


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## Captainron (Mar 7, 2016)

Didn't Lee Trevino advocate getting a golf licence. So in effect you would need a few lessons to be competent to hit the fairways. This included the basics on etiquette. Sounds a good plan but it would put a few people off because it could be seen as a massive barrier. Food for thought


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## Tashyboy (Mar 7, 2016)

Last week at our place and today at Lindrick the pitch marks I repaired nearly put my back out. If there is one thing that rubs me up its not repairing your damage.


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## SugarPenguin (Mar 7, 2016)

Not everybody knows the rules but everybody should know etiquette. 

Homers post was interesting however I don't want the game to grow if it's full of hooligans who don't respect courses or the game


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## selwood90 (Mar 7, 2016)

Not repairing pitch marks or even repairing them the wrong way drives me nutty. Followed a 4 ball the other day, and on nearly every single green they had left minimum 3 pitch marks behind. These guys had all the gear, probably a grands worth of stuff per bag. So my assumption is they knew exactly what they were doing. Yet these are the people that are quick to moan if the greens arnt top notch in summer etc. Team of green keepers work extremely hard to keep places in good nick and there's a small handful of people out there that are quite happy to blatantly disregard the most basic of rules. Not on at all


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2016)

I'll add 'rakes'.  Where the club makes clear where and how it would like rakes positioned in bunkers it is the duty of all players to make sure that these guidelines are adhered to.  And this means that when I leave a green and I spot any rakes not positioned in accordance with these guidelines it is *my *responsibility to sort them right there and then.


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## Slab (Mar 8, 2016)

Rakes, pitch marks, bunkers, walking on line etc etc, all things that when not done or done incorrectly are pretty much universally agreed as bad etiquette, but... some go on about it like the world is ending and that punishment should be severe & swift

Itâ€™s nice that nearly everyone cares so much but when you happen across a dissenter you could just a) forget any facts or mitigating circumstances and just lace up your kicking boots and lay in to them or b) realise that no-oneâ€™s been shot or stabbed and you have an opportunity to offer some friendly advice/guidance at a suitable time/place to a fellow golfer. Both have their merits and are productive in their own way. 

Trouble is the majority donâ€™t do â€˜aâ€™ or â€˜bâ€™ they do c) blame it for that missed putt or poor bunker shot and whinge about it to PPâ€™s or anyone whoâ€™ll listen (repeat for each round)


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## seochris (Mar 8, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agree with the basis premise of the OP and the list is pretty self explanatory. I think however it's something that comes with time and so new golfers are necessarily going to be fully clued up on how to behave on the course. If golf is to grow then it needs to be accessible and it needs to lose the stuffy image it has which a lot of people would recognize as etiquette. 

That said, as a member of a club I do expect my fellow members to have a grasp of the etiquette and not repairing pitch marks is an absolute bug bear of mine and something that seems to be getting worse. Not sure how that improves as with slow play, it seems it's always someone else causing the problem
		
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Agree whole heartedly with this.

We have a guy at work who is just taken up the game and had a shed load of lessons but never been on a course.  So being the eternal philanthropist that I am ....I suggested we go out onto a golf course with the sole intention of giving instruction on etiquette, and all those on the list were mentioned. It was the first time he had been on a course and he was very interested in the etiquette however did lapse on a few occasions but when you are just starting out the main aim is to hit the ball so the etiquette bit takes second place.  However he was very apologetic when he was reminded of the 'rules'!


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 8, 2016)

My 2 pet hates are people not raking bunkers (I've seen massive foot prints going right past the rake in a competition). If I have an un-repaired pitch mark on my line at least I can fix it. If I'm in a foot print in a bunker I can't.

The other is people with carry bags not standing still when I'm playing a shot - clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink...


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## Slab (Mar 8, 2016)

MashieNiblick said:



			My 2 pet hates are people not raking bunkers (I've seen massive foot prints going right past the rake in a competition). If I have an un-repaired pitch mark on my line at least I can fix it. If I'm in a foot print in a bunker I can't.
*
The other is people with carry bags not standing still when I'm playing a shot - clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink...*

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If only there was some kind of head cover for irons....


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## One Planer (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I always try and be is polite on the course and try and ensure I follow good etiquette on the course 

For me the basics are 

Repair pitchmarks
Rake bunkers
Be quiet and still when someone is playing their shot
Try to keep up with the group in front
Allow the quicker group behind to come through at the earliest opportunity 
Don't walk on people's lines on the green
Recognise the signs on the course and abide by them 

I'm sure others have more that they consider part of the basic fabric when playing BUT over the last 3 weeks I have seen more and more ignorant people on the golf course failing to abide by the most basic of etiquette - this morning alone people shouting and chatting whilst people playing shots , bunkers full of footprints , greens covered in pitch marks and a lot of the time it's from golfers who have been around and playing for a long time 

Recently there was a thread asking should people have a basic grasp of the rules before playing comps 

Well IMO people should have a basic grasp of course etiquette before being allowed to play any round of golf
		
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No very often I agree with you Phil, but in this case I do 100%.

I have a few more 'rules of etiquette' I could add to your list that I use (replacing divots, allowing faster groups/individuals to play through etc) but your list is well rounded.

I played my home track for the first time in 8 weeks at the weekend. It was shameful the amount of unrepaired pitch marks that were left on greens, and not little one either!

Really grinds my gears as it takes literally no time to repair.

I've often said that slow play is an issue of etiquette.

I have no issue with how fast or slow someone wants to play the game. If slower moving groups allowed faster groups through, the courses would flow much better.

Sadly they don't and we all are well versed in the consequences


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## Robobum (Mar 8, 2016)

Part of any joining fee (or year 1 subs) should be a playing lesson with the pro so they can see what you do know and point you in the direction of some good habits if necessary.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

The word 'etiquette' is outdated and I imagine to young people who the game needs to attract, sounds like something Victorian dad would day.  Yes people need to learn the common sense stuff listed by the OP, by both trying to learn it before hand and also by playing the game. But please don't make it sound like it is something taken from the script of Downton Abbey. Every other sport has common sense things you do or not do, but they are not so pretentious to call it 'etiquette'.


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## Capella (Mar 8, 2016)

What would a more modern term meaning the same thing be then? Fair play? Covers some of it, but not all, I think. A lot of it has to do with taking responisibility. For your own actions and behaviour, but also for the well being of the other players and for the condition of the course. Maybe stressing that part of it sounds more attractive to young people.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 8, 2016)

How about "on course behaviour". I agree with HK that etiquette as a term is a turn off although what it means is essential. This is one for the PR people to work out.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How about "*on course behaviour*". I agree with HK that etiquette as a term is a turn off although what it means is essential. *This is one for the PR people to work out*.
		
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That sounds a decent suggestion but does it need a name, by naming it are we just highlighting that there are certain things you are expected to do/not do? And this in turn feeds into the perception and problem with the image of the game?  Again all other major sports have equivalents, but you don't have a specific term for them apart from rules and common sense. No one talks about cricket etiquette or football etiquette.  

As for PR then this is what does frustrate me about golf a lot.  In a lot of cases not that much needs to change, but the marketing and image of the game are at times very poor and time after time golf portrays an out of date image which further fuels peoples perception of the game. 

People like Keith Pelley and Chubby Chandler do fill me with some hope for the future at the top level as they seem switched on and knows about the importance of image.  No one wants style over substance, but with a bit of decent PR and marketing, especially as the grass roots level, I think the game would be in a much healthier state.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

The OP has nothing to do with image or PR etc etc 

It's about behaviour on the course and acting properly and taking into consideration your fellow golfers and not acting selfish. 

It's not outdated at all and as I said in my OP the lack of etiquette I see on the course actually comes from people who have been playing the game for a long time


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## Capella (Mar 8, 2016)

That sounds a decent suggestion but does  it need a name, by naming it are we just highlighting that there are  certain things you are expected to do/not do? And this in turn feeds  into the perception and problem with the image of the game?
		
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There is a big difference between golf and most other sports, though, and that is that golf is not as closely monitored and refereed. Golf depends on you doing what's right, not because there might be penalties if someone catches you, but just because it is decent to do so. And you ARE expected to do certain things. And that fact should be highlighted from the start, no matter if the beginning player is a junior or a retiree. I don't care if it sounds antiquated, it just is an absolutely integral part of the game. If we give that up to make golf more hip and more attractive to young people, then I'd rather not, because it would destroy the game as we know it. 

Compare it with something like martial arts, if you want. At least in the more traditional ones there are a lot of things you just do, because they are tradition. Bow before you enter the dojo for example. Bow to greet your sensei and any opponent or training partner. I never ever heard a kid complaining that that was something uncool to do, even though it does come from another time and in that case even a foreign culture. Quite the contrary, they usually love it. It makes them feel being part of something special. I don't see why golf should be different.


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OP has nothing to do with image or PR etc etc 

It's about behaviour on the course and acting properly and taking into consideration your fellow golfers and not acting selfish. 

It's not outdated at all and as I said in my OP the lack of etiquette I see on the course actually comes from people who have been playing the game for a long time
		
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I didn't think some of the issues you mentioned would be allowed at your course Phil maybe you should speak to the committee and get them to speak to the members concerned if you know who they are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			I didn't think some of the issues you mentioned would be allowed at your course Phil maybe you should speak to the committee and get them to speak to the members concerned if you know who they are.
		
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I would hope the issues mentioned wouldnt be allowed at any club


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would hope the issues mentioned wouldnt be allowed at any club
		
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Unfortunately it does happen and all too often


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			Unfortunately it does happen and all too often
		
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Hence the reason I started the thread


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Capella said:



*There is a big difference between golf and most other sports*, though, and that is that golf is not as closely monitored and refereed. Golf depends on you doing what's right, not because there might be penalties if someone catches you, but just because it is decent to do so. And you ARE expected to do certain things. And that fact should be highlighted from the start, no matter if the beginning player is a junior or a retiree. I don't care if it sounds antiquated, it just is an absolutely integral part of the game. *If we give that up to make golf more hip and more attractive to young people, then I'd rather not, because it would destroy the game as we know it. *

Compare it with something like martial arts, if you want. At least in the more traditional ones there are a lot of things you just do, because they are tradition. Bow before you enter the dojo for example. Bow to greet your sensei and any opponent or training partner. I never ever heard a kid complaining that that was something uncool to do, even though it does come from another time and in that case even a foreign culture. Quite the contrary, they usually love it. It makes them feel being part of something special. I don't see why golf should be different.
		
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Yes and no.  When it comes to competing for the time of people looking to play a sport in an increasingly time pressured society then it is no different to others. 

And I have never said we should give the things mentioned in the OP up to make the game more hip, in fact I am sure I stated we should do them. My argument was just re-brand it for want of a better word, make it seem more relevant to modern society in the way it is portrayed. I agreed with Fundy in a previous post in that clubs should make these things clear from the start, cover basic rules and basic behaviour on the course in a fun and engaging workshop for new and possibly existing golfers. No need to give them a test, just a certificate of attendance. Simples.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OP has nothing to do with image or PR etc etc 

It's about behaviour on the course and acting properly and taking into consideration your fellow golfers and not acting selfish. 

It's not outdated at all and as I said in my OP *the lack of etiquette I see on the course actually comes from people who have been playing the game for a long time*

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have seen a fair bit of this from long-standing members since I joined our place in November. Fairway protection has been in place since November, and the rule is you have to move your ball outside red lines which have been painted on either side of the fairway, but I have seen this ignored by quite a few players of a certain age.

Also, until a couple of weeks ago, there was a trolley ban in place, and you could only use one if you had a medical certificate. However I would regularly see at least 3 players in 4 balls with trolleys.

Me and my mate who joined at the same time are new to the game, and try to follow the rules, but sometimes you think what's the point, when you see other folk flouting them.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OP has nothing to do with image or PR etc etc 

It's about behaviour on the course and acting properly and taking into consideration your fellow golfers and not acting selfish. 

It's not outdated at all and as I said in my OP the lack of etiquette I see on the course actually comes from people who have been playing the game for a long time
		
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OK, you have highlighted a problem. So let's move on and look at possible solutions, other than just moaning about it and saying it is bad.  Which I think we all probably agree on?  What practical real life steps can we take to ensure golfers have a basic grasp before they tee off? As it seems the current way of doing it is not working.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, you have highlighted a problem. So let's move on and look at possible solutions, other than just moaning about it and saying it is bad.  Which I think we all probably agree on?  What practical real life steps can we take to ensure golfers have a basic grasp before they tee off? As it seems the current way of doing it is not working.
		
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Education and sanctions. 

As with rules if etiquette isn't followed after education then sanctions to people are applied. If people can't look after the golf course they shouldn't be using the golf course


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Education and sanctions. 

As with rules if etiquette isn't followed after education then sanctions to people are applied. If people can't look after the golf course they shouldn't be using the golf course
		
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A good starting point would be to prevent anyone with a higher handicap than 18 on the course. Cant understand why anyone would want to spend money buying golf clubs and paying a membership would want to do so when its clear they cant play the game.


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## TheJezster (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			A good starting point would be to prevent anyone with a higher handicap than 18 on the course. Cant understand why anyone would want to spend money buying golf clubs and paying a membership would want to do so when its clear they cant play the game.
		
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Yea, lets kill the game and pretty much close down every golf course in the land!  That'll teach em... :-D

Coming back to normality, perhaps clubs could print off some small sheets with "Do's & Dont's" of the course to keep it simple.  Any new member gets one in their joining pack and induction meeting and all existing members are emailed it and also handed one out by the pro.  Could even make every member sign to show they've read it (this could easily be done at the pro shop)

Just a thought, and gotta be better than shutting down all golf clubs!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			A good starting point would be to prevent anyone with a higher handicap than 18 on the course. Cant understand why anyone would want to spend money buying golf clubs and paying a membership would want to do so when its clear they cant play the game.
		
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Sorry but that's utter total nonsense but not surprising coming from yourself 

HC has nothing to do with the etiquette side of the game so please stop turning this thread into another vehicle for you to slag off over 60% of the golfing community 

Your arrogance and attitude towards high HC is quite poor tbh


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Education and sanctions. 

As with rules if etiquette isn't followed after education then sanctions to people are applied. If people can't look after the golf course they shouldn't be using the golf course
		
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But how do you educate golfers then?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			A good starting point would be to prevent anyone with a higher handicap than 18 on the course. Cant understand why anyone would want to spend money buying golf clubs and paying a membership would want to do so when its clear they cant play the game.
		
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And welcome back to the troll.  How's the 3 billy goats gruff nowadays?

But speaking as a high handicapper I thoroughly agree with you, so much so that I get disgusted by the sight of myself playing golf.  I have absolutely no sense of self respect.  And you know the worst thing, I often don't even consider the hurt and distress I am causing to those golfers who, like yourself, are better than me and should really have the course to themselves.  I am so sorry, please don't judge me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But how do you educate golfers then?
		
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Communication 

Social media , e mails , notices , speaking directly to the members, newsletters , notices on scorecards , thought that would be pretty self explanatory


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## Slab (Mar 8, 2016)

I have a problem with the educate/sanction approach 

Educate is fine but to then move to sanctions for non-compliance seems a bit 'military'

I'd think the best thing is to find out _*why*_ there's still non compliance and address that issue long before sanctions get rolled out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2016)

rudebhoy said:



			have seen a fair bit of this from long-standing members since I joined our place in November. Fairway protection has been in place since November, and the rule is you have to move your ball outside red lines which have been painted on either side of the fairway, but I have seen this ignored by quite a few players of a certain age.

Also, until a couple of weeks ago, there was a trolley ban in place, and you could only use one if you had a medical certificate. However I would regularly see at least 3 players in 4 balls with trolleys.

Me and my mate who joined at the same time are new to the game, and try to follow the rules, *but sometimes you think what's the point, when you see other folk flouting them.*

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Just you keep doing what you know to be the 'right thing' and don't build up resentments over those who don't.  You can but quietly and calmly point out their lapses - but only *they* can change their behaviour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Slab said:



			I have a problem with the educate/sanction approach 

Educate is fine but to then move to sanctions for non-compliance seems a bit 'military'

I'd think the best thing is to find out _*why*_ there's still non compliance and address that issue long before sanctions get rolled out
		
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A lot of the issues will down to ignorance and arrogance IMO 

If people don't comply then do we continue to let them mis treat the course ? Why should people who do treat the course respectfully have to suffer because others can't. 

If people can't be educated then they shouldn't be allowed near the course - the opportunity is there.


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## Capella (Mar 8, 2016)

The problem is that behaviour like that (or rather lack thereof) is very contagious. If one player does not rake the bunker, the next player landing in it will very likely not rake it either, because it already looked a mess when his ball hit it and so forth. It is a bit like graphitti spraying ... a pristine white wall can stay like that for years, but as soon as the first sprayer taggs it, it is going to be totally covered in paint in a matter of days.


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## fundy (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Education and sanctions. 

As with rules if etiquette isn't followed after education then sanctions to people are applied. If people can't look after the golf course they shouldn't be using the golf course
		
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sorry im confused phil, an hour with the pro and a small test is putting barriers in play but this isnt?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

fundy said:



			sorry im confused phil, an hour with the pro and a small test is putting barriers in play but this isnt?
		
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Its putting a barrier in for the protection and respect of the golf course - if you can't treat the golf course with respect why should you be able to use it. 

Ensuring people don't play unless they pass a test on rules ? What does that protect ?


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## Old Skier (Mar 8, 2016)

At ours and many clubs around here (I can only assume it's the same country wide) juniors go through lessons on Etiquette and playing, it's a shame that for some it's not just juniors that go through this.


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## Leereed (Mar 8, 2016)

Makes it sound like we asking people to go to the moon and back. It's easy you go in a bunker rake it, you take a divot replace it, make a pitch mark repair it.I bet they would not take divots out of there front lawn and leave it.


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## Scott W (Mar 8, 2016)

From my POV

For my lad who is starting out, I take out and drill him on etiquette (in a nice way!) like, make sure you leave bag near next tee, ready to play etc.

For longer standing players...at my club I suspect I would be gently reminded by playing partners

We are fortunate to have limited # of societies


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## fundy (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its putting a barrier in for the protection and respect of the golf course - if you can't treat the golf course with respect why should you be able to use it. 

Ensuring people don't play unless they pass a test on rules ? What does that protect ?
		
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as i said it was for rules and etiquette, if you teach people up front then maybe you wont have to ban them further down the line!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

fundy said:



			as i said it was for rules and etiquette, if you teach people up front then maybe you wont have to ban them further down the line!
		
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It's not just new people playing the game - this is mainly from what I can see guys that have been playing a long time


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Communication 

Social media , e mails , notices , speaking directly to the members, newsletters , notices on scorecards , thought that would be pretty self explanatory
		
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I disagree, those not interested to learn or be re-educated, simply won't, and that will be the large majority and especially those that have played for many years and been members for many years, many of those won't like being told what they THINK they already know and will take great offence being told, probably lead to some members actually leaving if they felt strong enough about it, club politics is how they'll think about it! 

I'm sure there are plenty of notices/posters around many clubs already regarding divots, pitch marks etc, social media and emails is a waste of time where seniors (majority of club members) are concerned, a note on a scorecard is no different to an advert, it will get glanced at but then dismissed into the pocket!

The only way to educate people is directly by introducing a test of sorts and keeping a record, it's obviously easier to do with new members and could be part of the joining process, if they want to play the course and join the club, they have to abide by the joining criteria and that covers looking after the course at all times and as such understanding what is required from the membership in doing so, getting that over and introducing such a new scheme to existing members is obviously more difficult and is why notices, emails etc won't work, it has to be direct in small lesson style groups or it won't work IMO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

So how do you test someone on their ettiquete when they have been playing for decades already ?

Send out multi choice exams ? Ask them questions 

Adding in tests does nothing - someone could just adhere to etiquette to pass and test then not bother the next time and subsequent times they play - what has that achieved 

And telling people the age of 50 upwards - sorry you can't play until you pass this test. They would be out the door and going to the next club. 

Every golfer has their own personally responsibility to play the game within the rules and etiquette of the game - golf is self governing from the top level down and is based on trust and maturity and respect - if people break that trust and respect then action must be taken

But adding in tests adds nothing but another hoop for someone to jump through just to play a game of golf.

I don't know where this fascination with tests has come from but thankfully they are left in school

The jncrease in commjncitation and social media has proved a big success at our club and that's the avenue myself and the golf director will use - it worked with trolley and buggy use


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			BUT over the last 3 weeks I have seen more and more ignorant people on the golf course failing to abide by the most basic of etiquette - this morning alone *people shouting* and *chatting* whilst people playing shots , *bunkers full of footprints* , *greens covered in pitch marks* and a lot of the time it's from golfers who have been around and playing for a long time 

Well IMO people should have a basic grasp of course etiquette before being allowed to play any round of golf
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't know where this fascination with tests has come from but thankfully they are left in school

*The jncrease in commjncitation and social media has proved a big success at our club *and that's the avenue myself and the golf director will use
		
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Everyone you ask about etiquette will say they comply, they will all say they do this that and the other already, but the simple fact of the matter is, a lot don't, hence your OP and disgruntled rant about your own club members, but to think those attitudes will change just with a few emails and social media messages aimed towards them, I think is very naive.

If people are like that and they *know* they should be repairing pitch marks and they *know* they should be replacing divots and they *know* shouldn't be talking etc, then for me they'll not take any notice of any emails or social media messages, they have personal (ignorant) issues and you need to confront them with them and ask them why they *CHOOSE* not to help and support the course they play on by not displaying any etiquette on it or towards it, then and only then will you come to understand any reasons for their behaviour and only then can you address it, emails & social media is gattling gun marketing, it will hit some targets but not the majority and so the problems will carry on.  

People need to be able to report fellow members that they see not adhering to basic etiquette consistently without fear of reprisals, especially if they cannot address the issues directly to them personally when playing for fear of confrontation.  

This is why your club, if it's as big an issue as stated in your OP, which thankfully it isn't at my club, need to show they are serious about it, emails and social media messages is not addressing it to the seriousness it requires, IMO of course.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

You don't confront first - you communicate first and then if that doesn't work you confront and then sanction. You have to give people the opportunity to change habits 

We had issues with people and where they took their trolley and the rules and guidelines were communicated to members including possible sanctions - it worked with people following the guidelines and people's attitude towards their trolley use etc changed. 

Communicating effectively and the right way has been proven to work - it's a powerful tool.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

Clubs have been trying to get members to repair pitch marks for years and still a lot of clubs have greens with lots of marks on them. Clearly education isn't working is it? Similar with bunkers and the problem isn't changing? How do you get membership to change when a large majority have the mindset that the problem isn't them (same with slow play). If education ain't working how do you improve un-repaired greens?


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## pokerjoke (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't confront first - you communicate first and then if that doesn't work you confront and then sanction. You have to give people the opportunity to change habits 

We had issues with people and where they took their trolley and the rules and guidelines were communicated to members including possible sanctions - it worked with people following the guidelines and people's attitude towards their trolley use etc changed. 

Communicating effectively and the right way has been proven to work - it's a powerful tool.
		
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Funny that Phil as you seem to have lost your ability to communicate,I suppose just ignoring things is the other option hoping it goes away.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Funny that Phil as you seem to have lost your ability to communicate,I suppose just ignoring things is the other option hoping it goes away.
		
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Pardon ?


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Clubs have been trying to get members to repair pitch marks for years and still a lot of clubs have greens with lots of marks on them. Clearly education isn't working is it? Similar with bunkers and the problem isn't changing? How do you get membership to change when a large majority have the mindset that the problem isn't them (same with slow play). If education ain't working how do you improve un-repaired greens?
		
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Which is what I am saying, everyone knows what they should be doing, these issues have been discussed for decades and never seem to be solved, you can search on every forum since forums began and the same issues have been discussed, but wait, we didn't have social media in them days so now all those offenders will read about themselves and feel guilty and all change, or maybe not :mmm:


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Funny that Phil as you seem to have lost your ability to communicate,I suppose just ignoring things is the other option hoping it goes away.
		
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Hmm, there's more to this than me thinks....


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## Robobum (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't confront first - you communicate first and then if that doesn't work you confront and then sanction. You have to give people the opportunity to change habits 

We had issues with people and where they took their trolley and the rules and guidelines were communicated to members including possible sanctions - it worked with people following the guidelines and people's attitude towards their trolley use etc changed. 

Communicating effectively and the right way has been proven to work - it's a powerful tool.
		
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Sanctioning the customer that pay the wages and the bills?

Good luck with that


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

Fish said:



			Which is what I am saying, everyone knows what they should be doing, these issues have been discussed for decades and never seem to be solved, you can search on every forum since forums began and the same issues have been discussed, but wait, we didn't have social media in them days so now all those offenders will read about themselves and feel guilty and all change, or maybe not :mmm:
		
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There have even been campaigns on social media (GM have done it as have others), posters in clubs etc and the message never gets through because members never see it as their problem. I don't see how you break the communication barriers


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2016)

If I could get pedagogical on your asses for a minute, then you need to 'educate' them better. If you want behaviour to change then, simplifying it a bit, you need to address knowledge, skills or attitudes, or a combination of them.  So in this case when it comes to pitch marks then is it an issue with the knowledge that they are supposed to repair them, probably not, deep down everyone knows that they are supposed to. Is it an issue with the skill of how to repair them, possibly in some circumstances, especially for those new to the game, but in general probably not the main reason.  So that just leaves attitudes, they know they should, they know how to do it but for whatever reason they do not value doing it.

So when you come to 'educating and communicating' with them you need to make sure you are using the right method to target the issue. Don't address the skill and knowledge if you are mostly trying to change attitudes. Mentioning it on notice boards and score cards may help a bit as it is a constant reminder, but you need to really get the people to have a change of heart.  So try methods such as 'meet the green keepers'.  A passionate 10 minute talk by a green keeper on what they do and how they are proud of their greens will have a significant effect on peoples attitudes. Hey, include it in the hour long 'get to know the rules and what to do on the course' session that Fundy so excellently suggested. Get the green keeper featured in newsletters, blog on the web site, that kind of thing.  That will change many more hearts and minds with regards to pitch marks than trying to bring in some draconian fining system.  

A 'stick' approach can be an effective way of making people learn, but if the learning is seen by the individual as 'non essential' then that kind of approach will only have limited success.


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## arnieboy (Mar 8, 2016)

Yet again someone earlier blamed seniors. Maybe our club is unusual but the several dozen seniors I know do repair pitch marks, do rake bunkers, do play at a reasonable pace and do observe other issues of etiquette. Maybe it is something to do with our age!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

arnieboy said:



			Yet again someone earlier blamed seniors. Maybe our club is unusual but the several dozen seniors I know do repair pitch marks, do rake bunkers, do play at a reasonable pace and do observe other issues of etiquette. Maybe it is something to do with our age!
		
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I'm personally not blaming it all on the seniors. Plenty of golfers of all ages play at weekends and usually we'll out in a roll up about 8.00 and even then we see freshly made marks or unraked bunkers. Some must have been done ahead of us (all ages in the preceding role up - not just seniors) and never repaired. It's a problem across golf club membership, not just one section


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm a senior so I try to lead by example &#128077;&#127948;&#128526;


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

arnieboy said:



			Yet again someone earlier blamed seniors. Maybe our club is unusual but the several dozen seniors I know do repair pitch marks, do rake bunkers, do play at a reasonable pace and do observe other issues of etiquette. Maybe it is something to do with our age!
		
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Its not just seniors nor juniors nor new players or players who have been playing for years - seen it with the whole spectrum of golfers


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

Fish said:



			I'm a senior so I try to lead by example &#128077;&#127948;&#128526;
		
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Thought you just had a hard paper round


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Thinking out aloud here. 

Is the answer for every course to have a marshall  who goes around and if they see any "Bad etiquette" they then step in and educate  ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Thinking out aloud here. 

Is the answer for every course to have a marshall  who goes around and if they see any "Bad etiquette" they then step in and educate  ?
		
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Course Marshalls would be great - they just cost money


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Thinking out aloud here. 

Is the answer for every course to have a marshall  who goes around and if they see any "Bad etiquette" they then step in and educate  ?
		
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Good suggestion but hard and expensive for some clubs to implement


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Course Marshalls would be great - they just cost money
		
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I would envisage they'd be committee members for private members clubs. maybe a subsidy from County for others ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			I would envisage they'd be committee members for private members clubs. maybe a subsidy from County for others ?
		
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Committee members have a lot to do as it is - as well as having their own lives and jobs of their own.


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Committee members have a lot to do as it is - as well as having their own lives and jobs of their own.
		
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Indeed they do so that could fall to the retired or semi retired ones


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Indeed they do so that could fall to the retired or semi retired ones
		
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What happens if you don't have those ? 

We looked at getting a Marshall and it would cost a lot of money


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What happens if you don't have those ? 

We looked at getting a Marshall and it would cost a lot of money
		
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Then you ask for volunteers :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Then you ask for volunteers :thup:
		
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Been looked into already as well 

I spent 3 months investigating a course Marshall at our place. 

They have had volunteers previously and it didn't work


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## Leereed (Mar 8, 2016)

At ours I think the Marshall's are all retired and get there membership for nothing. 
Don't think they work through the winter.Seen one on Friday for the first time this year.


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Been looked into already as well 

I spent 3 months investigating a course Marshall at our place. 

They have had volunteers previously and it didn't work
		
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Why didn't it work ?
So how do the rest of your membership feel about "poor etiquette " ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Why didn't it work ?
So how do the rest of your membership feel about "poor etiquette " ?
		
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Issues with arguments on the course with members not taking orders as such from other members and the number of volunteers dropped down to nil 

Well haven't really asked the rest of the membership but have heard rumblings of people not happy with a few things


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Why didn't it work ?
So how do the rest of your membership feel about "poor etiquette " ?
		
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Not sure how much a marshall will actually see regarding not repairing pitch marks etc. It has to be a change of mind set to get members to have pride in their greens and the course and not leave the pitch marks for someone else. That's a big ask


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Issues with arguments on the course with members not taking orders as such from other members and the number of volunteers dropped down to nil 

Well haven't really asked the rest of the membership but have heard rumblings of people not happy with a few things
		
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That's a shame , did they receive training in how not to be confrontational and thus not lead to arguments.


HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure how much a marshall will actually see regarding not repairing pitch marks etc. It has to be a change of mind set to get members to have pride in their greens and the course and not leave the pitch marks for someone else. That's a big ask
		
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I see it as a slow burner Homer, they sit by the side of your worst green for pitch marks and observe groups playing through for a couple of hours. Members being members would ask why they're there/ what are you up too and they can use that interaction to educate. Marshall could also ask if   they had any issues they'd like to see addressed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

All trainjng was given etc

And etiquette is more than just pitchmarks.


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## upsidedown (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Issues with arguments on the course with members not taking orders as such from other members and the number of volunteers dropped down to nil 

Well haven't really asked the rest of the membership but have heard rumblings of people not happy with a few things
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			All trainjng was given etc

And etiquette is more than just pitchmarks.
		
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Of course it is, as mentioned above the Marshall would be looking at all aspects. The one that really bugs me is FP's chatting away or thinking they're whispering when it's other players turn .


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## Crow (Mar 8, 2016)

The best thing any golfer can do is to lead by example and hopefully others will follow.

If you see somebody not repairing a pitch mark or similar then offer a jocular comment such as "If you've forgotten your pitch mark repairer you only have to ask and you can borrow mine".

Admittedly you can only do this with the players in your group and if you always play with the same people then the effect will be limited but it will spread.





Anyway, the main reason I wanted to post something was to report that I've just eaten the most scrummy toad-in-the-hole with fried onions and gravy that my dear wife made. 
It didn't seem worth starting a thread for, but it was so good that maybe it was?


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## arnieboy (Mar 8, 2016)

Its a bit like dropping litter, people know they shouldn't do it but many don't give a toss.


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Been looked into already as well I spent 3 months investigating a course Marshall at our place. They have had volunteers previously and it didn't work
		
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And a Marshall would do what, throw members off the course ?Good luck with that oneAnyway why didn't you do it, it seems the good thing to do as you have all the answers


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			And a Marshall would do what, throw members off the course ?Good luck with that oneAnyway why didn't you do it, it seems the good thing to do as you have all the answers
		
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A course Marshall was for more than monitoring players etiquette on the golf course. Plenty of courses have course Marshalls


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			That's a shame , did they receive training in how not to be confrontational and thus not lead to arguments.


I see it as a slow burner Homer, they sit by the side of your worst green for pitch marks and observe groups playing through for a couple of hours. Members being members would ask why they're there/ what are you up too and they can use that interaction to educate. Marshall could also ask if   they had any issues they'd like to see addressed.
		
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Exactly, Lions don't need to roar, sometimes just an adhock presence at key areas by a committee member or the Pro, sitting from a distance watching, making notes watching how long groups take to tee off, vacate the green etc, the bar would be buzzing about it afterwards, everyone would then know they are being observed because problems have got to that degree, I would expect to see a drop in problems at those key places in the future.


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A course Marshall was for more than monitoring players etiquette on the golf course. Plenty of courses have course Marshalls
		
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It seems to me that your course has some real issues & that your current committee have no idea on how to deal with them, why did it take over 3 months to look into a Marshall. I agree that some course have Marshalls but you won't find them much on private members courses they tend to have Marshalls at courses where it's mostly pay as you play corporate courses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			It seems to me that your course has some real issues & that your current committee have no idea on how to deal with them, why did it take over 3 months to look into a Marshall. I agree that some course have Marshalls but you won't find them much on private members courses they tend to have Marshalls at courses where it's mostly pay as you play corporate courses.
		
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The issues I have seen aren't just on my course - seen it at plenty of other course around the country. 

The problem of poor etiquette is relevant all over the game


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			It seems to me that your course has some real issues & that your current committee have no idea on how to deal with them, why did it take over 3 months to look into a Marshall. I agree that some course have Marshalls but you won't find them much on private members courses they tend to have Marshalls at courses where it's mostly pay as you play corporate courses.
		
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And even then they can be a waste of time, I played in a Nike matchplay comp at a De Vere, we, as a 2-ball got caught behind a society who's last 4-ball had lost 2 holes by the 8th,  the Marshall refused to have a word with them to let us though and said we should be prepared to play at a 4-balls place, even if we did they certainly weren't and a 5hr round ensued, I'll never play at that course again!


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The issues I have seen aren't just on my course - seen it at plenty of other course around the country. 

The problem of poor etiquette is relevant all over the game
		
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Other than the odd pitch mark, we don't have the level of issues you were ranting about happening at your club in the OP.


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The issues I have seen aren't just on my course - seen it at plenty of other course around the country. The problem of poor etiquette is relevant all over the game
		
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So just to be clear you have never shown bad etiquette & you are a roll model, maybe your club should make you a poster boy and ask all the members to learn from you


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Fish said:



			And even then they can be a waste of time, I played in a Nike matchplay comp at a De Vere, we, as a 2-ball got caught behind a society who's last 4-ball had lost 2 holes by the 8th,  the Marshall refused to have a word with them to let us though and said we should be prepared to play at a 4-balls place, even if we did they certainly weren't and a 5hr round ensued, I'll never play at that course again!
		
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Marshalls are a waste of time if they have no authority to deal with the issues Phil is talking about & I am sure most members clubs would tell him to Phil off anyway......


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			So just to be clear you have never shown bad etiquette & you are a roll model, maybe your club should make you a poster boy and ask all the members to learn from you
		
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When have I ever made that suggestion ?


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When have I ever made that suggestion ?
		
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You seem to be keen to point out everyone's faults so I  just assumed you had none of your own.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

Fish said:



			Other than the odd pitch mark, we don't have the level of issues you were ranting about happening at your club in the OP.
		
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So your clubs has

Never had any issues with slow play and letting people through 

Every single person rakes the bunker after

Never has anyone that speaks at the wrong time 

Have ever had anyone ignore signs 


Or indeed any poor levels of etiquette ? 

Is your club the only club in the world then ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			You seem to be keen to point out everyone's faults so I  just assumed you had none of your own.
		
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Maybe the issue you have is in having assumptions


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So your clubs hasNever had any issues with slow play and letting people through Every single person takes the bunker afterNever has anyone that speaks at the wrong time Have ever had anyone ignore signs Or indeed any poor levels of etiquette ? Is your club the only club in the world then ?
		
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Now I know where all the bunkers have gone at our place, everyone takes them after ???????????


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe the issue you have is in having assumptions
		
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Or maybe all the issues you have at your club are in your head.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			Or maybe all the issues you have at your club are in your head.
		
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Or maybe they are not and it something a number of people have complained about hence why are looking at how to approach it.


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So your clubs has

Never had any issues with slow play and letting people through 

Every single person takes the bunker after

Never has anyone that speaks at the wrong time 

Have ever had anyone ignore signs 


Or indeed any poor levels of etiquette ? 

Is your club the only club in the world then ?
		
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Can you prove to me that all those listed happen at my club to the degree that we would need to look into having a marshal or use social media sites and emails to curb them &#129300;

I've never seen a bunker not raked at my club, I've always been let through and been in many groups that have let faster groups through, we don't have many signs on our course, in the winter any roping is adhered to,


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## HankMarvin (Mar 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or maybe they are not and it something a number of people have complained about hence why are looking at how to approach it.
		
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I look forward as to how you deal with it then.If a member told you he did rake bunkers would you take his word for it ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			I look forward as to how you deal with it then.If a member told you he did rake bunkers would you take his word for it ?
		
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We have issues with unraked bunkers and unrepaired pitch marks but if you ask any golfer in the 19th they'd swear blind it wasn't them. Has to be someone. Same with slow play. We do have some slow rounds at times but speak to the people afterwards and they'll swear they were in position and up with the game in front (usually a hole and a half ahead)


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## 3565 (Mar 8, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have issues with unraked bunkers and unrepaired pitch marks but if you ask any golfer in the 19th they'd swear blind it wasn't them. Has to be someone. Same with slow play. We do have some slow rounds at times but speak to the people afterwards and they'll swear they were in position and up with the game in front (usually a hole and a half ahead)
		
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Maybe, just maybe that those who DONT rake replace or repair cos they've got the speed merchants up their arse banging on about slow play, rake replace and repairing takes er ........... Valuable time from the anti slow play busy lives!!!


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## Slab (Mar 9, 2016)

It can only be an attitude change for improvements as Hacker said on a great post on page 7 

I also think thereâ€™s a danger of blowing the problem out of proportion and I wonder if the poor etiquette examples are a bit like the â€˜I want relief if my ball lies in a divotâ€™ issue. It just doesnâ€™t happen that often to represent a big problem 

If you stick a 100 players on the course you might see a handful of instances of varying 'poor' etiquette between them but (& it needs to be acknowledged that it can never be completely eradicated) much of them are simply oversights or mistakes over playing of 1800 greens or several thousand bunkers, it really is pretty tiny in the scheme of things  

How often does my ball actually land in a footprint in a bunker (I donâ€™t even remember when this last happened)
Pitch-marks I see the pros re-repairing someone elseâ€™s pitch-mark on their line every single round on TV Is it then so difficult to imagine that if the original professional golfer couldnâ€™t repair it properly that amateurs may also suffer from the same failing of making a repair not upto everyone elseâ€™s standards 
Noise on someoneâ€™s swing, jeez weâ€™ve all done something like this on rare occasions if weâ€™re honest, it wasnâ€™t malicious it was a mistake or affected a player that was completely unnoticed until it was too late. I recall doing it twice in the last 4 years due to a lack of 360 vision or a player playing unexpectedly and I felt rotten but say youâ€™re sorry (mean it) and move on 
Golf course signage is never held up as an example for its quality placement with clear instructions. Weâ€™ve all seen signs that arenâ€™t clear so getting one wrong or missing it if a player is walking an unusual route is never going to be crime of the century fit for punishment. I donâ€™t want the fairway looking like the local high street so I need to accept that from time to time on the odd occasion a sign will be missed 

I just donâ€™t think that poor etiquette is that rampant and we need to be careful about being to precious about it


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## Fish (Mar 9, 2016)

Slab said:



			It can only be an attitude change for improvements as Hacker said on a great post on page 7 

I also think thereâ€™s a danger of blowing the problem out of proportion and I wonder if the poor etiquette examples are a bit like the â€˜I want relief if my ball lies in a divotâ€™ issue. It just doesnâ€™t happen that often to represent a big problem 

If you stick a 100 players on the course you might see a handful of instances of varying 'poor' etiquette between them but (& it needs to be acknowledged that it can never be completely eradicated) much of them are simply oversights or mistakes over playing of 1800 greens or several thousand bunkers, it really is pretty tiny in the scheme of things  

How often does my ball actually land in a footprint in a bunker (I donâ€™t even remember when this last happened)
Pitch-marks I see the pros re-repairing someone elseâ€™s pitch-mark on their line every single round on TV Is it then so difficult to imagine that if the original professional golfer couldnâ€™t repair it properly that amateurs may also suffer from the same failing of making a repair not upto everyone elseâ€™s standards 
Noise on someoneâ€™s swing, jeez weâ€™ve all done something like this on rare occasions if weâ€™re honest, it wasnâ€™t malicious it was a mistake or affected a player that was completely unnoticed until it was too late. I recall doing it twice in the last 4 years due to a lack of 360 vision or a player playing unexpectedly and I felt rotten but say youâ€™re sorry (mean it) and move on 
Golf course signage is never held up as an example for its quality placement with clear instructions. Weâ€™ve all seen signs that arenâ€™t clear so getting one wrong or missing it if a player is walking an unusual route is never going to be crime of the century fit for punishment. I donâ€™t want the fairway looking like the local high street so I need to accept that from time to time on the odd occasion a sign will be missed 

I just donâ€™t think that poor etiquette is that rampant and we need to be careful about being to precious about it
		
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Good post, some people are habitual moaners though and demand perfection, even though there possibly not that perfect themselves! Some people also get into a position of authority and feel the need to constantly flex their muscles and reinvent the wheel, usually to the detriment of the status quo and do more damage than good. 

Maybe some clubs members as described in the OP are uncontrollable and all this poor etiquette is in defiance of how their club is being run ðŸ˜œ


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2016)

Slab said:



			It can only be an attitude change for improvements as Hacker said on a great post on page 7 

I also think thereâ€™s a danger of blowing the problem out of proportion and I wonder if the poor etiquette examples are a bit like the â€˜I want relief if my ball lies in a divotâ€™ issue. It just doesnâ€™t happen that often to represent a big problem 

If you stick a 100 players on the course you might see a handful of instances of varying 'poor' etiquette between them but (& it needs to be acknowledged that it can never be completely eradicated) much of them are simply oversights or mistakes over playing of 1800 greens or several thousand bunkers, it really is pretty tiny in the scheme of things  

How often does my ball actually land in a footprint in a bunker (I donâ€™t even remember when this last happened)
Pitch-marks I see the pros re-repairing someone elseâ€™s pitch-mark on their line every single round on TV Is it then so difficult to imagine that if the original professional golfer couldnâ€™t repair it properly that amateurs may also suffer from the same failing of making a repair not upto everyone elseâ€™s standards 
Noise on someoneâ€™s swing, jeez weâ€™ve all done something like this on rare occasions if weâ€™re honest, it wasnâ€™t malicious it was a mistake or affected a player that was completely unnoticed until it was too late. I recall doing it twice in the last 4 years due to a lack of 360 vision or a player playing unexpectedly and I felt rotten but say youâ€™re sorry (mean it) and move on 
Golf course signage is never held up as an example for its quality placement with clear instructions. Weâ€™ve all seen signs that arenâ€™t clear so getting one wrong or missing it if a player is walking an unusual route is never going to be crime of the century fit for punishment. I donâ€™t want the fairway looking like the local high street so I need to accept that from time to time on the odd occasion a sign will be missed 

I just donâ€™t think that poor etiquette is that rampant and we need to be careful about being to precious about it
		
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How many different golf courses do play each year ? How busy is your current course with either members or guest fees ?

Woburn for example found it was becoming that bad in regards - pitch marks , bunkers , divots etc that they increased their communication and notices and Marshalls were informed to take special notice - especially with corperate days 

Maybe the ones who don't see the poor etiquette on the course can't because it's them being part of the poor etiquette :mmm:


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 9, 2016)

The best one I have ever heard was a guy putting on a short par-3 and there were two massive pitch marks next to his ball, one of which was obviously his.   He left them both and when asked about them, shrugged his shoulders and said "I didn't know which one was mine".    

He was on the club committee at the time.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2016)

3565 said:



			Maybe, just maybe that those who DONT rake replace or repair cos they've got the speed merchants up their arse banging on about slow play, rake replace and repairing takes er ........... Valuable time from the anti slow play busy lives!!! 

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Speed merchants equally as bad as tortoises and arguably in so much of a hurry they'd be the first not to bother. The issues has sod all to do with pace and everything to do about selfish members being too lazy


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## Fish (Mar 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe the ones who don't see the poor etiquette on the course can't because it's them being part of the poor etiquette :mmm:
		
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&#128514;&#128514; That's comedy gold, so clubs that have members that are respectable to their fellow golfers and their course don't exist!  

Just because your club and course is suffering to the degree that you've had to  look into marshals and needed to rant about it doesn't mean every club suffers from the same degree of issues that made you post about it, and to accuse any members of being the problem just because they don't see them occurring at their own club or when visiting some other courses to the levels that need addressing,  is insulting IMO. 

Maybe your club has much bigger issues than other clubs, I can understand some of the issues being noticed more at courses where there is a constant daily stream of societies of variable experience and no experience, but with what you've had to look into and are still attempting to address is a big problem at your private members club so I would suggest that just because you have that problem at your club to accuse other members of other clubs whom do not come across it as much is an attempt to water down the problem at your club now and attempt to give it a much wider focus, which I don't think is correct, well not to the level you needed to vent anyway.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2016)

Fish said:



			&#128514;&#128514; That's comedy gold, so clubs that have members that are respectable to their fellow golfers and their course don't exist!  

Just because your club and course is suffering to the degree that you've had to  look into marshals and needed to rant about it doesn't mean every club suffers from the same degree of issues that made you post about it, and to accuse any members of being the problem just because they don't see them occurring at their own club or when visiting some other courses to the levels that need addressing,  is insulting IMO. 

Maybe your club has much bigger issues than other clubs, I can understand some of the issues being noticed more at courses where there is a constant daily stream of societies of variable experience and no experience, but with what you've had to look into and are still attempting to address is a big problem at your private members club so I would suggest that just because you have that problem at your club to accuse other members of other clubs whom do not come across it as much is an attempt to water down the problem at your club now and attempt to give it a much wider focus, which I don't think is correct, well not to the level you needed to vent anyway.
		
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Bravo. However I do feel a lot of club members at many courses could do more to repair pitch marks, even if they didn't cause them. Doesn't it come down to a basic etiquette and pride in your own club and course?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2016)

We looked into getting a Marshall due to the increase in the size of membership and the course becoming busy at weekends - nothing to do with problems with etiquette 

And if you read through the thread you will see that issues have been witnessed at other clubs so not sure why you keep attempting to put focus on my club. 

The OP was about etiquette in general within golf 

If you don't think etiquette is a problem then excellent - you don't need to do anything different. Have heard and spoken and read enough from people to suggest it is an issue in the wider area of golf and not just at one particular club.


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## Slab (Mar 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many different golf courses do play each year ? How busy is your current course with either members or guest fees ?

Woburn for example found it was becoming that bad in regards - pitch marks , bunkers , divots etc that they increased their communication and notices and Marshalls were informed to take special notice - especially with corperate days 

Maybe the ones who don't see the poor etiquette on the course can't because it's them being part of the poor etiquette :mmm:
		
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If you're thinking that I see less poor etiquette due to low volume traffic courses or members only gaffs, that's not the case

I rotate through half a dozen courses, playing every week. 
Every day of every week (all year round) there will be 100-200 players per day, mostly made up of tourists, expats clubs, members, societies and comps/tournaments, a more diverse bunch would be hard to find

I do see instances of poor etiquette when i'm on the course but not anything I'd consider outwith the tolerances of human nature


I have to admit that where I am lucky is that each course has between 50-70 ground-staff to make sure the course at least starts each day in good condition and additional work is completed quickly but that doesn't mean they repair pitch-marks throughout the day or rake bunkers, this is down to the players, same as walking on someones line or bag chatter at the wrong time (although one course requests divots are not repaired by players)

I'd imagine Woburn must have a similar number of greenstaff and starts the day with the course as good as it can be so it needs to ask itself why it appears to attract this golfing behaviour which is very much in the minority


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2016)

Slab said:



			If you're thinking that I see less poor etiquette due to low volume traffic courses or members only gaffs, that's not the case

I rotate through half a dozen courses, playing every week. 
Every day of every week (all year round) there will be 100-200 players per day, mostly made up of tourists, expats clubs, members, societies and comps/tournaments, a more diverse bunch would be hard to find

I do see instances of poor etiquette when i'm on the course but not anything I'd consider outwith the tolerances of human nature


I have to admit that where I am lucky is that each course has between 50-70 ground-staff to make sure the course at least starts each day in good condition and additional work is completed quickly but that doesn't mean they repair pitch-marks throughout the day or rake bunkers, this is down to the players, same as walking on someones line or bag chatter at the wrong time (although one course requests divots are not repaired by players)

I'd imagine Woburn must have a similar number of greenstaff and starts the day with the course as good as it can be so it needs to ask itself why it appears to attract this golfing behaviour which is very much in the minority
		
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Do you really believe poor etiquette is in a minority ?

How many threads have we had recently in regards slow play , people being held up - even GM have made a series of videos in regard slow play 

If The level of poor etiquette is enough to spoil other people's enjoyment of the course and do damage to a golf course ( remember not many clubs have the luxury of 70 green staff ) then it's enough to do something about it


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2016)

As an observation on etiquette......In the early 1990's I managed a very busy municipal course 65,000 rounds pa plus over 1,000 members.
There was always a battle between casual and club use.
The club members complained bitterly about the etiquette of the casual players especially, divots, pitchmarks and bunker raking.
To enable the smooth running of major competitions we introduced a members only closed tee booking. 240 players from 6am to 2pm. 

I asked the club secretary and captain to examine the course immediately after the members had played. They were astonished with the poor state of pitchmarks on greens, unraked  bunkers and divots not replaced. 


Like slow play, the folk who complain are, on many occasions, the biggest culprits.


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## Slab (Mar 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you really believe poor etiquette is in a minority ?

How many threads have we had recently in regards slow play , people being held up - even GM have made a series of videos in regard slow play 

If The level of poor etiquette is enough to spoil other people's enjoyment of the course and do damage to a golf course ( remember not many clubs have the luxury of 70 green staff ) then it's enough to do something about it
		
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So is 150 players a day, 7days a week, 52 weeks a year not enough traffic to give me an indication of course etiquette? Granted I'm not there daily but I cant believe other players change their behavior just on the days I go along 

I think pace of play can be a problem on some days and could be included under the heading of poor etiquette but the threads have also highlighted that pace isn't a player only problem and a group of well behaved golfers can put in a 5hour round simply due to tee spacing, pin placements, comp formats, incorrect tee boxes etc etc So I think we need to look at Pace separately when discussing etiquette

Far more enjoyment sapping course damage is caused by weather conditions, diseases/pests and machinery than any group of golfers who might miss the occasional pitch-mark or footprint


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## Scott W (Mar 9, 2016)

Apologies if points already made (skim read 13 pages) but a couple of thoughts

Pitch Marks

1. Is it possible the pitch marks were repaired but repaired badly. We had a campaign of education at our club as to how to repair a pitch mark (too often people "lift up" the ground which actually tears the roots and makes recovery worse) - they also gave out a free plastic pitch fork in the shop! subtle hint

2. If you do the maths... say 200 rounds x 18 greens = 3,600 "possible pitch marks" x average 33% GIR (I am making this sh*t up!) = circa 1,200 possible repairs. If even considerate golfers miss 5% of PM's (absent mindedness, didnt realise pitched and rolled off) then you are going to get some damage

Bunkers

Less likely to miss/forget but my regular PP recently forgot to rake a bunker on a par 3 and was mortified when group behind pointed it out. Genuine mistake from a guy with strong etiquette

This pic on the other hand screams "tosser" (it was from a resort course!)


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2016)

Slab said:



			So is 150 players a day, 7days a week, 52 weeks a year not enough traffic to give me an indication of course etiquette? Granted I'm not there daily but I cant believe other players change their behavior just on the days I go along 

I think pace of play can be a problem on some days and could be included under the heading of poor etiquette but the threads have also highlighted that pace isn't a player only problem and a group of well behaved golfers can put in a 5hour round simply due to tee spacing, pin placements, comp formats, incorrect tee boxes etc etc So I think we need to look at Pace separately when discussing etiquette

Far more enjoyment sapping course damage is caused by weather conditions, diseases/pests and machinery than any group of golfers who might miss the occasional pitch-mark or footprint
		
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Well then I'm going to say you are very lucky over in Mauritus because through expirence in this and reading and listening I'm going to have to politiely disagree and especially on the damage pitchmarks going unrepaired cause - sitting in monthly greens meetings tells me all I need to know about what damage they cause to a green.'


And pace of play is part of etiquette hence why it's always mentioned in discussing a both etiquette and why it's mentioned in th OP


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## upsidedown (Mar 9, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bravo. However I do feel a lot of club members at many courses could do more to repair pitch marks, even if they didn't cause them. Doesn't it come down to a basic etiquette and pride in your own club and course?
		
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I'm at a private member club and in the Winter generally see little poor etiquette, yes we get some slow lay at weekends but that is due to the reduced daylight and everyone wanting a game. The course is normally in pretty good nick re pitch marks and bunkers as we do have our fair share of moaners who put right those who don't repair or rake :thup:

How ever in our busy Summer months we do get quite a few societies who can be painfully slow and lacking in raking skills. 

I also play a lot of golf away and have not seen that many instances apart from slow play and as that was mainly in Opens , it was possibly caused by players , who like us , not knowing the course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But speaking as a high handicapper I thoroughly agree with you, so much so that I get disgusted by the sight of myself playing golf.  I have absolutely no sense of self respect.  And you know the worst thing, I often don't even consider the hurt and distress I am causing to those golfers who, like yourself, are better than me and should really have the course to themselves.  I am so sorry, please don't judge me.
		
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LOL - Oh you are a one HK 

Get thee hence to endless night...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

arnieboy said:



			Yet again someone earlier blamed seniors. Maybe our club is unusual but the several dozen seniors I know do repair pitch marks, do rake bunkers, do play at a reasonable pace and do observe other issues of etiquette. Maybe it is something to do with our age!
		
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It's to do with respect and an awareness and consideration of others rather than just self.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

3565 said:



			Maybe, just maybe that those who DONT rake replace or repair cos they've got the speed merchants up their arse banging on about slow play, rake replace and repairing takes er ........... Valuable time from the anti slow play busy lives!!! 

Click to expand...

With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club.  It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.  

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they *do* have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them.  So why do I find rakes all over the place?  Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them?  I really don't know.  I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.


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## Fish (Mar 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club.  It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.  

*The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they do have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them.  So why do I find rakes all over the place?  Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them?*  I really don't know.  I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.
		
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Not making any kind of statement here, just playing devil's advocate, are you saying that as you approach bunkers that you're not necessarily in, or in fact none of your playing group are in, but you notice the rake is facing the wrong way, or its in the bunker and should be out or 50/50, you jump in and correct it as you feel it's your responsibility to do so?


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club.  It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.  

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they *do* have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them.  So why do I find rakes all over the place?  Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them?  I really don't know.  I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.
		
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       can you tell us all where the correct position for a rake should be? as im sure their are plenty of people willing to learn this most hidden gem of golf law.


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## Fish (Mar 9, 2016)

The poacher said:



			can you tell us all where the correct position for a rake should be? as im sure their are plenty of people willing to learn this most hidden gem of golf law.
		
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There isn't one, this has been discussed separately in length before, however, every club will have it's own directive, our's are 50/50 in/out, some are fully in and facing the hole/green, some are out and to the side, there are arguments for all these scenarios/positions but none of them are "correct" in the grand scheme of things.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 9, 2016)

Fish said:



			There isn't one, this has been discussed separately in length before, however, every club will have it's own directive, our's are 50/50 in/out, some are fully in and facing the hole/green, some are out and to the side, there are arguments for all these scenarios/positions but none of them are "correct" in the grand scheme of things.
		
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is the correct answer .
  i was just wondering where SILH thought the correct place should be as his post suggested there was such a place.


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## Capella (Mar 9, 2016)

I'd much rather have a rake in the "wrong" place after it has been used than having it in the right place because players did not bother using it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

Fish said:



			Not making any kind of statement here, just playing devil's advocate, are you saying that as you approach bunkers that you're not necessarily in, or in fact none of your playing group are in, but you notice the rake is facing the wrong way, or its in the bunker and should be out or 50/50, you jump in and correct it as you feel it's your responsibility to do so?
		
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Yes I do - usually after I have played the hole (though I 'fish' it our rather than jump into the bunker with my size 10s).  Especially if any rake is positioned in a way that might cause a following player to curse his bad luck and swear at my group for not putting the rake back properly


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

The poacher said:



			is the correct answer .
  i was just wondering where SILH thought the correct place should be as his post suggested there was such a place.
		
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I have talked about 'correct' place for a rake being that set out by the club.  Nothing to do what I might think the 'correct' place for a rake should be.  My thoughts are irrelevant on that - it's the clubs that count.


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## Fish (Mar 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I do - usually after I have played the hole.  Especially if any rake is positioned in a way that might cause a following player to curse his bad luck and swear at my group for not putting the rake back properly 

Click to expand...

So again, just playing devil's advocate, I hope your club never has a big problem with bunkers because if I was following you and watching you jump back in bunkers after waiting for you all to putt out and then see you jumping back in greenside bunkers correcting the rakes positions and no doubt having to rake them again also, I'm not sure what I'd think, I know you'd most certainly be unduly delaying yourself and myself by doing so, wouldn't you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club.  It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.  

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they *do* have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them.  So why do I find rakes all over the place?  Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them?  I really don't know.  I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.
		
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Etiquette is not where a rake is placed in the bunker or out of the bunker or wherever. 

You had a very big thread on it and the same conclusion was given - there is no set place for a rake to go.


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## Slab (Mar 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Etiquette is not where a rake is placed in the bunker or out of the bunker or wherever. 

You had a very big thread on it and the same conclusion was given - there is no set place for a rake to go.
		
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A great many courses do have a published/posted set place for the rake to go (they're just not all the same place) 

Not following that instruction/guidance for that course must surely be poor etiquette (even if its a different place from last weeks course) A player can't decide which guidelines they follow and which they can disregard


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## bobmac (Mar 9, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The word 'etiquette' is outdated and I imagine to young people who the game needs to attract, sounds like something Victorian dad would day.  Yes people need to learn the common sense stuff listed by the OP, by both trying to learn it before hand and also by playing the game. But please don't make it sound like it is something taken from the script of Downton Abbey. Every other sport has common sense things you do or not do, but they are not so pretentious to call it 'etiquette'.
		
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Doesnt cricket and tennis have a dress code and their own unusual language?



Hacker Khan said:



			Yes people need to learn the common sense stuff listed by the OP
		
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Do they really need to learn 'common sense'?


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## Crow (Mar 9, 2016)

Iâ€™m quite partial to the word etiquette, despite being a mere stripling.

Iâ€™d also argue that itâ€™s not so much the young that the game needs to attract as the 30+ and middle aged, people who as a rule donâ€™t get put off because they can't wear their normal gear on the course and arenâ€™t embarrassed by golfâ€™s â€œVictorian dadâ€ image.

The game has been bending over backwards trying to attract the young, just admit it, golf is by and large a game that attracts the more mature individual. If clubs were to invest money attracting the 30+ market theyâ€™d see far more benefit pound for pound. (And they wouldnâ€™t have to worry about relaxing dress codes or dropping words from the language.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2016)

Fish said:



			So again, just playing devil's advocate, I hope your club never has a big problem with bunkers because if I was following you and watching you jump back in bunkers after waiting for you all to putt out and then see you jumping back in greenside bunkers correcting the rakes positions and no doubt having to rake them again also, I'm not sure what I'd think, I know you'd most certainly be unduly delaying yourself and myself by doing so, wouldn't you?
		
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I don't faff about tweaking a rake that might be slightly out of 'position' - and I tend to not go into a bunker as I'd then have to rake my footsteps - but I will spend a minute or two (because that's all it takes) to sort out stupidly positioned rakes.  And if that means the group behind has to wait one minute before playing to the green then that is fine by me - as they will be able to see what I'm doing and appreciate what I am doing for them - and maybe also be more diligent themselves.  I really have no problems at all doing this, and if anyone pulled me up for it they'd get a piece of my mind.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 9, 2016)

Do folk actually look out for how the rake should be placed when going and playing a course they haven't played?

There are far more important issues to worry about than how a rake is positioned in/next to a bunker.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			Do folk actually look out for how the rake should be placed when going and playing a course they haven't played?

There are far more important issues to worry about than how a rake is positioned in/next to a bunker.
		
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Far happier if there's actually a rake there to tidy up after visiting the sand. Found several top courses where there wasn't at least one per bunker


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## SugarPenguin (Mar 10, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Far happier if there's actually a rake there to tidy up after visiting the sand. Found several top courses where there wasn't at least one per bunker
		
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Agreed. Even worse is when you are in a mini desert and thereâ€™s one rake 100 yards away for the entire bloody bunker!

Another thing that annoys me is people not shouting FORE! My PP are pretty guilty of this and I usually have to do it for them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			Do folk actually look out for how the rake should be placed when going and playing a course they haven't played?

*There are far more important issues to worry about than how a rake is positioned in/next to a bunker.*

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There are - but it is good practice and etiquette, and a simple courtesy to fellow golfers, to leave the green and bunkers as you would like to find them.  And if that means spending a couple of minutes repairing pitch marks (on green and in apron) and sorting out carelessly or stupidly left rakes - then that's what I will do.


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## TheJezster (Mar 10, 2016)

Whats a carelessly left rake?

Surely a rakes a rake.  It's either in or around the bunker near to where you took your shot from?


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## richart (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if that means spending a couple of minutes repairing pitch marks (on green and in apron)
		
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I was with you for a time there, but if you have to put on a apron to repair pitchmarks I am out. I might be able to dig out a French maids outfit if that would be any good.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

richart said:



			I was with you for a time there, but if you have to put on a apron to repair pitchmarks I am out. I might be able to dig out a French maids outfit if that would be any good. 

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Very good sir!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			Whats a carelessly left rake?

Surely a rakes a rake.  It's either in or around the bunker near to where you took your shot from?
		
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I think you are being a wee bit obtuse here.  A club will specify where players should place bunker rakes.  Any rake not placed accordingly is carelessly (or stupidly) placed.  For instance (a real example) how would you describe how the rake in the picture is placed; if you saw it would you 'walk on by'; I cannot think of any circumstance under which I would leave that rake where it is.

...well I tried to post a picture here but it's too big - and photobucket links through to all my own pictures...

wooo - didn't mean it to be quite that big a pic


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			Do folk actually look out for how the rake should be placed when going and playing a course they haven't played?

There are far more important issues to worry about than how a rake is positioned in/next to a bunker.
		
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Only one person


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only one person
		
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I hope I am not the only person who sorts rakes he sees left in stupid places in the bunker


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## TheJezster (Mar 10, 2016)

Seriously! Some clubs will specify where a rake should be left!!???? Dear God I've heard it all now!  I have never heard that and nor would I ever look out for any signs in any clubhouse for that.  That's just well I'm not sure there are words for it....


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			Seriously! Some clubs will specify where a rake should be left!!???? Dear God I've heard it all now!  I have never heard that and nor would I ever look out for any signs in any clubhouse for that.  That's just well I'm not sure there are words for it....
		
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I think it will be more where the greenkeepers left it but being honest I can't ever recall at any club I have played any posters or communications in regards where a rake should be.


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## Leereed (Mar 10, 2016)

I did not know about rakes either. Gunna ask a stupid question then what is the correct place?
At ours some are half in half out
at the side
in the bunker.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

Leereed said:



			I did not know about rakes either. Gunna ask a stupid question then what is the correct place?
At ours some are half in half out
at the side
in the bunker.
		
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There is no correct place - there will be differing opinions about where the best place for the rake to be


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## Leereed (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no correct place - there will be differing opinions about where the best place for the rake to be
		
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Cheers Phil, that answers that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no correct place - there will be differing opinions about where the best place for the rake to be
		
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My club stipulates that _'rakes should be placed in the middle of bunkers pointing towards the flag'. _ Now whether you or I agree with that directive or not is completely irrelevant - at my place their IS a correct place for a rake.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club stipulates that _'rakes should be placed in the middle of bunkers pointing towards the flag'. _ Now whether you or I agree with that directive or not is completely irrelevant - at my place their IS a correct place for a rake.
		
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But which end points towards the flag ?! What a dilemma 

Playing there with the Mariners I can't recall any notice and saw rakes in various positions - certainly not many in the place you suggest


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2016)

Not too bothered where rakes are placed as long as the bunker has one. All I ask.


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## Fish (Mar 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club stipulates that _'rakes should be placed in the middle of bunkers pointing towards the flag'. _ Now whether you or I agree with that directive or not is completely irrelevant - at my place their IS a correct place for a rake.
		
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And as you play your round you make a conscious effort to ensure they are as requested and any that are not, you stop and put them right, and we wonder why there are issues with slow play!!


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## Jimaroid (Mar 10, 2016)

Which way is forwards on a rake?


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## Crow (Mar 10, 2016)

Some places are considerate enough to have stands for the rakes, which makes them less likely to interfere with the ball.

I've got nothing against following the clubs preference for where a rake should be left and can't understand why everyone is having a go at  SILH, must be the lack of on-course time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Fish said:



			And as you play your round you make a conscious effort to ensure they are as requested and any that are not, you stop and put them right, and we wonder why there are issues with slow play!!
		
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Did you read what I said about how long sorting a couple of rakes actually takes - and that any group behind me that thought I was slowing things up by sorting a couple of rakes so they don't get a bad break due to a stupidly chucked down rake - well they would get a piece of my mind.  it takes no longer to get rakes positioned properly than it does to repair pitch marks - do we stop doing that as it might be a cause of 'slow play'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Crow said:



			Some places are considerate enough to have stands for the rakes, which makes them less likely to interfere with the ball.

I've got nothing against following the clubs preference for where a rake should be left and can't understand why everyone is having a go at  SILH, must be the lack of on-course time.
		
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Thankyou.  For Goodness sake - what I do is simply me trying to stick to what the club asaks, and to be considerate to following players - I don't get at all why I am getting all this sad cynicism on this.  Actually it is a pity that some don't actually seem to care about where they leave the rakes and how that might affect another player - and by the sounds of it wouldn't bother moving a rake if they saw it left in a stupid position,  Well of course why would they - they are not affected so why should they bother.  And it's absolutely obvious if you think for just one second which end of the rake must be closest to the green.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 11, 2016)

You are not alone SILH. One of my pet hates is rakes placed a few inches along the inside of the back lip of bunkers where they could trap a ball on the down slope and leave an impossible shot.

If I see any like this as I walk past I will re-position it so it is less likely to give a player a bad break. Normally it just means turning it 90*. I reckon it takes about 10 seconds max.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

You mean like this real example in bunker at the left side of our 10th green from last year








Now I didn't leave it there - but someone in a group in front put it there.  And as you walk past that bunker to the next tee at least the group in front of me must all have ignored it.


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## Wilson (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean like this real example in bunker at the left side of our 10th green from last year








Now I didn't leave it there - but someone in a group in front put it there.  And as you walk past that bunker to the next tee at least the group in front of me must all have ignored it.
		
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It would never occur to me to move that rake, unless my ball went in that bunker I don't think the bunker would even enter my mind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Wilson said:



			It would never occur to me to move that rake, unless my ball went in that bunker I don't think the bunker would even enter my mind.
		
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You are kidding? - no seriously - if you saw it you'd just leave it there?  

Maybe you'd find it worthwhile having a quick look into bunkers in passing - just in case someone ahead of you had left a rake positioned like this - and move it as a courtesy to the players behind you,.


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## Wilson (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are kidding? - no seriously - if you saw it you'd just leave it there?  

Maybe you'd find it worthwhile having a quick look into bunkers in passing - just in case someone ahead of you had left a rake positioned like this - and move it as a courtesy to the players behind you,.
		
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Yes, firstly I don't think I'd notice it unless my ball went in there/I walked right past it, and even if I did it wouldn't occur to me to move it - I've just re-read the 4 pages of "Etiquette & Good Practice", that is in our club diary, and it makes no mention of where to place rakes, it says to enter a bunker on the low side & ensure you rake fully, but no instructions on where to leave the rake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Wilson said:



			Yes, firstly I don't think I'd notice it unless my ball went in there/I walked right past it, and even if I did it wouldn't occur to me to move it - I've just re-read the 4 pages of "Etiquette & Good Practice", that is in our club diary, and it makes no mention of where to place rakes, it says to enter a bunker on the low side & ensure you rake fully, but no instructions on where to leave the rake.
		
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Whether your club has advice or not - I am frankly astonished at your thoughts on this.  And that just because the club guidance doesn't tell you about rake positioning you wouldn't bother.  Sorry - I am baffled as to why it wouldn't occur to you to move it.


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## Wilson (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether your club has advice or not - I am frankly astonished at your thoughts on this.  And that just because the club guidance doesn't tell you about rake positioning you wouldn't bother.  Sorry - I am baffled as to why it wouldn't occur to you to move it.
		
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It's just never been something that has been taught to me, or I have read or picked up - to me rakes are part of the game and sometimes you get lucky breaks off them, and sometimes you get bad breaks off them - rub of the green.

If there is a local rule/guidance on how to leave them, I will follow it after I have used one, but otherwise I tend to just leave it in what I consider is a sensible place, especially if it is a large bunker with a number of rakes.


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am frankly astonished at your thoughts on this.
		
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I think you'll find he is not alone


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Wilson said:



			It's just never been something that has been taught to me, or I have read or picked up - to me rakes are part of the game and sometimes you get lucky breaks off them, and sometimes you get bad breaks off them - rub of the green.

If there is a local rule/guidance on how to leave them, I will follow it after I have used one, but otherwise I tend to just leave it in what I consider is a sensible place, especially if it is a large bunker with a number of rakes.
		
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I am sure you agree that the rake in my photo is not in a sensible place - but you said you'd not think about moving it.  That's what baffles me.  

And off 10 you must have played with hundreds of different players - and you have never noticed anyone reposition a rake.  I also don't get why you think this needs teaching - it is surely blindingly obvious that your ball could sneak into that bunker and get trapped against the back edge (the green is to the right of the pic) with no shot whatsoever.  Yes - rub of the green and all that - but we don't want any of our fellows to suffer that sort of bad luck - brought about through someone else's stupidity or carelessness.


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## richart (Mar 11, 2016)

I will put a rake that is half in half out of the bunker, back into it at my club. I will put the rake in a better place having used it having played out of one of our bunkers, but I don't go round examining other bunkers for badly positioned ones. I see badly raked bunkers all the time. Should I be going into these bunkers and rake them ? Where do you stop being a golfer and become a greenkeeper ?


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## Wilson (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am sure you agree that the rake in my photo is not in a sensible place - but you said you'd not think about moving it.  That's what baffles me.  

And off 10 you must have played with hundreds of different players - and you have never noticed anyone reposition a rake.  I also don't get why you think this needs teaching - it is surely blindingly obvious that your ball could sneak into that bunker and get trapped against the back edge (the green is to the right of the pic) with no shot whatsoever.  Yes - rub of the green and all that - but we don't want any of our fellows to suffer that sort of bad luck - brought about through someone else's stupidity or carelessness.
		
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It's not that I've never noticed anyone re-position a rake, it's more that I don't think I've ever played with anyone who has re-positioned a rake!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

richart said:



			I will put a rake that is half in half out of the bunker, back into it at my club. I will put the rake in a better place having used it having played out of one of our bunkers, *but I don't go round examining other bunkers for badly positioned ones. *I see badly raked bunkers all the time. Should I be going into these bunkers and rake them ? Where do you stop being a golfer and become a greenkeeper ?
		
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Neither do I - but when I approach a green I will glance at bunkers in passing and likewise when on green and not putting.  The greenkeepers aren't going to be about sorting bunkers and rakes all day - so I try and do my bit *for other players* as best I can - impacting as little as possible on the general flow.  Fortunately badly raked bunkers - sufficient to merit going out of my way to rake them - are very rare, but repositioning bunker rakes is quick and easy.


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## Wilson (Mar 11, 2016)

richart said:



			I will put a rake that is half in half out of the bunker, back into it at my club. I will put the rake in a better place having used it having played out of one of our bunkers, but I don't go round examining other bunkers for badly positioned ones. I see badly raked bunkers all the time. Should I be going into these bunkers and rake them ? Where do you stop being a golfer and become a greenkeeper ?
		
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Great point, now if I notice an unraked bunker, I will rake it, but again it would have to be because my ball was in it, or I walk right past it - if I was in the middle of the fairway I wouldn't be checking them to see if they had been raked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

Wilson said:



			Great point, now if I notice an unraked bunker, I will rake it, but again it would have to be because my ball was in it, or I walk right past it - if I was in the middle of the fairway I wouldn't be checking them to see if they had been raked.
		
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It's not a bad point - and I accept what's said - but I go back to me feeling that I have a duty to other players to sort terribly raked bunkers or stupidly placed rakes as and when I come across them.  

For me it's just like coming across rubbish dropped in the street - or indeed on the golf course.  If I notice it and it irks me I will often pick it up and carry it to the next bin.  Many would walk past thinking it's the street-cleaners (or the greenkeepers) job - I don't - I may well pick it up.  And so to tidying bunkers and re-positioning rakes - when such considerations are, for me, even more important when the folk behind you might be visitors having paid a lot of money to play - and for whom this sort of thing creates a negative impression and is unnecessary - never mind the frustration of falling foul of the carelessness.

I think though that on this I seem to be finding myself standing at my lonesome HNSP


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## richart (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not a bad point - and I accept what's said - but I go back to me feeling that I have a duty to other players to sort terribly raked bunkers or stupidly placed rakes as and when I come across them.  

For me it's just like coming across rubbish dropped in the street - or indeed on the golf course.  If I notice it and it irks me I will often pick it up and carry it to the next bin.  Many would walk past thinking it's the street-cleaners (or the greenkeepers) job - I don't - I may well pick it up.  And so to tidying bunkers and re-positioning rakes - when such considerations are, for me, even more important when the folk behind you might be visitors having paid a lot of money to play - and for whom this sort of thing creates a negative impression and is unnecessary - never mind the frustration of falling foul of the carelessness.

I think though that on this I seem to be finding myself standing at my lonesome HNSP 

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 I think most of us on here will do certain things on the course. Repair pitchmarks, replace divots, put sand in divots on the tee, pick up rubbish etc, it is just where do you stop ? Bunkers to me are hazards, and I will moan like hell if I get a bad lie, up against a rake, in a foot print, etc, but it is just rub of the green to me. Can honestly say I have never seen a playing partner reposition a rake that is already in a bunker in 40 years plus of playing.

Slightly off track, I do think some golfers need to be told how to rake a bunker. Don't pull all the sand to the back as you walk out. Push sand back to the middle. I have seen a playing partner at Blackmoor do this to a badly raked bunker, but he is a greenkeeper by profession at another club.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

richart said:



			I think most of us on here will do certain things on the course. Repair pitchmarks, replace divots, put sand in divots on the tee, pick up rubbish etc, it is just where do you stop ? Bunkers to me are hazards, and I will moan like hell if I get a bad lie, up against a rake, in a foot print, etc, but it is just rub of the green to me. *Can honestly say I have never seen a playing partner reposition a rake that is already in a bunker in 40 years plus of playing.*

Slightly off track, I do think some golfers need to be told how to rake a bunker. Don't pull all the sand to the back as you walk out. Push sand back to the middle. I have seen a playing partner at Blackmoor do this to a badly raked bunker, but he is a greenkeeper by profession at another club.
		
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I do find that quite surprising - mind you there are now plenty of members at my place who won't be able to say that.  I am genuinely surprised that I seem to be in a tiny minority who do this - and who actually think it's the right thing for us to do for our fellow golfers - here was me thinking it was an obvious courtesy and duty of care to others.


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## User20205 (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do find that quite surprising - mind you there are now plenty of members at my place who won't be able to say that.  I am genuinely surprised that I seem to be in a tiny minority who do this - and who actually think it's the right thing for us to do for our fellow golfers - here was me thinking it was an obvious courtesy and duty of care to others.
		
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It's a minority of 1. There are common sense places to leave a rake, but to actively look to reposition those that, in your opinion, are incorrect strikes me as a bit mental.

With this, the frowning upon DMD's & the HNSP, rounds with you must be a minefield


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2016)

richart said:



			Can honestly say I have never seen a playing partner reposition a rake that is already in a bunker in 40 years plus of playing.
		
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Nor me and I'm sure if a PP was off repositioning the rakes in the bunkers (and we can have three in some bunkers), the first thing to happen will be everyone moaning about the pace of play. Never seen anyone do it and to be honest how many times per season does the ball really get interfered with by the rake when goes in the bunker


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## user2010 (Mar 11, 2016)

If a rake is in or near the bunker, that`ll do for me.:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

therod said:



			It's a minority of 1. There are common sense places to leave a rake, but to actively look to reposition those that, in your opinion, are incorrect strikes me as a bit mental.

With this, the frowning upon DMD's & the HNSP, rounds with you must be a minefield

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Good grief - I'm talking about moving any rakes like that in my photo away from the edge and I might as well stick it where the club suggests!  I don;t walk round a course looking into bunkers and straightening up any rakes not perfectly positioned or aligned.  I am doing this sort of thing for my fellow players.  I remain astonished that I am the only person who does this - something that to me seems an easy and simply courtesy to others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 11, 2016)

Seriously SILH ?! Didn't this happen in another thread when it was ruined by constant waffle about rake placement and now you have done it again.


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## User20205 (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good grief - I'm talking about moving any rakes like that in my photo away from the edge and I might as well stick it where the club suggests!  I don;t walk round a course looking into bunkers and straightening up any rakes not perfectly positioned or aligned.  I am doing this sort of thing for my fellow players.  I remain astonished that I am the only person who does this - something that to me seems an easy and simply courtesy to others.
		
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Does the fact you're the 'only' person tell you something?

Etiquette is a good thing, but a fixation on rake placement and where to stand isn't etiquette, it's something else.

Generally I don't see a problem with etiquette, some  pitch marks are missed, some  divots are unrepaired but it's not systemic.
Just don't sweat the small stuff


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good grief - I'm talking about moving any rakes like that in my photo away from the edge and I might as well stick it where the club suggests!  I don;t walk round a course looking into bunkers and straightening up any rakes not perfectly positioned or aligned.  I am doing this sort of thing for my fellow players.  I remain astonished that I am the only person who does this - something that to me seems an easy and simply courtesy to others.
		
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Definitely think you are in a small minority. I admire your diligence to other players but I've personally never had any issues with bunkers and where they are placed and there's more to worry about with my golf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Definitely think you are in a small minority. I admire your diligence to other players but I've personally never had any issues with bunkers and where they are placed and there's more to worry about with my golf
		
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Oh well - I still don't understand why there seems to almost be a reluctance to do it and to portray what I do as a bit odd.  Nevertheless I'll continue to do as I do in my minority of one and if by doing so someone behind doesn't get trapped against the back of a bunker then it'll have been worth it - though I'll never know and neither will they.


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## bobmac (Mar 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don;t walk round a course looking into bunkers and straightening up any rakes not perfectly positioned or aligned.
		
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Emmm..........



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



but when I approach a green I will glance at bunkers in passing and likewise when on green and not putting

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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



but I will spend a minute or two (because that's all it takes) to sort out stupidly positioned rakes 

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I think maybe you do





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



And if that means the group behind has to wait one minute before playing to the green then that is fine by me

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I think it may not be fine with the group waiting behind.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



and if anyone pulled me up for it they'd get a piece of my mind.

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Do you not think that might create a ''negative impression''  especially if the people behind waiting were visitors having paid a lot of money to play?





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



so I try and do my bit for other players

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I think while some players may appreciate your efforts for the first few holes, I wouldn't be surprised if words aren't exchanged by the back 9.
If you are spending one or two minutes on every hole repairing pitchmarks and tidying rakes after you have completed the hole, that soon adds up and in my opinion constitutes undue delay.
By all means repair pitchmarks while you group are putting out but when the flag is in, get out of the way.
I'll end by saying if a group is given the choice of having to wait over half an hour while you tidy the rakes 
or
finishing up in an awkward place IN A HAZARD, then I think they would chose the latter as has been mentioned by others, its just the rub of the green.

All just my opinion of course


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## TheJezster (Mar 12, 2016)

Looking at that photo I also wouldn't think anything of it. It's a rake and it's in a bunker. If I use a rake I normally get rid of the footprints and just throw it back in or on the edge. I think that's what most people would do, certainly anyone I have ever seen


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 12, 2016)

therod said:



			It's a minority of 1.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I remain astonished that I am the only person who does this - something that to me seems an easy and simply courtesy to others.
		
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therod said:



			Does the fact you're the 'only' person tell you something?
		
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Minority of 2? Certainly not the only one. See post 167. Unless I'm on "ignore".

I'm with SILH on this. I don't go looking for them but if I'm walking right past it I'll move it. I understand  not everyone would do the same - fair enough, but I really can't understand why some people think it is OK to deliberately or negligently place a rake in a bunker where it could put another player at a disadvantage. A rake is an obstruction and is not an intrinsic part of the hazard and should not therefore be factor in affecting play from the hazard.

I also replace great lumps of divots that either haven't been replaced or have been turned over by crows as I walk by, and repair pitchmarks on the fringe if they are nearby after I have played. This all takes a few seconds. I do it while others are playing. I don't do it obsessively, just opportunistically. It doesn't slow down play one iota. Like SILH this just seems to me to be following the principles of good etiquette - care of the course and showing consideration for other players.


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## User20205 (Mar 12, 2016)

You'd never be on ignore  but a minority of 2 doesn't suit my narrative  

Nothing wrong at all with your approach, but actively looking for rakes to reposition, before 'educating' your fc's on where to stand on the next tee doesn't strike me as a fun way to spend my Saturday morning.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 12, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I think while some players may appreciate your efforts for the first few holes, I wouldn't be surprised if words aren't exchanged by the back 9.
If you are spending one or two minutes on every hole repairing pitchmarks and tidying rakes after you have completed the hole, that soon adds up and in my opinion constitutes undue delay.
By all means repair pitchmarks while you group are putting out but when the flag is in, get out of the way.
I'll end by saying if a group is given the choice of having to wait over half an hour while you tidy the rakes 
or
finishing up in an awkward place IN A HAZARD, then I think they would chose the latter as has been mentioned by others, its just the rub of the green.

All just my opinion of course
		
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Bob, with regard to the rakes, speaking for myself, this only happens very occasionally. Thankfully 99.9% of the time the rakes are OK. I'll only move one if it's along the inside back lip and I can move it without going out of my way.

On the slow play factor, I have been trapped between the back lip and a rake a couple of times and the palaver involved in moving the rake, letting the ball roll nearer the hole, replacing the ball, letting it roll again, then having to find the nearest place in the bunker, NNTH,  where it will come to rest when I place it will be a much more frustrating experience for those behind.

The alternative is that miraculously I the ball stays in place when the rake is moved but I take two or more to get out of the bunker, ot have to traipse 30 yards to the opposite side of the green to play from where my thinned attempt has ended up. Either way it won't be quick.

One day my actions may save someone having to go through that or having to wait and watch it.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 12, 2016)

therod said:



			You'd never be on ignore 

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Cheers. so far as I am aware then it's still only Mrs Mashie-N who has activated this function


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## dewsweeper (Mar 12, 2016)

I played today in a better ball and laid up to a bunker I could not carry.
I was tiring a bit but because of this thread I bent down and moved the rake from lying across the line of play to the " hogan" position, felt quite good with myself, then duffed my next shot, grrr!
Thanks Swingit.


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## upsidedown (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm kinda with SWLH on this one in that at my home course if it didn't delay play and I'd seen a rake in a bad position to the detriment of following players , then I would rectify it . In much the same way I'll replace divots and generally keep the course tidy .


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 12, 2016)

Played today - repaired pitchmarks , filled in divots on tee and on the fairway 

No idea where any of the rakes where


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## Fish (Mar 12, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			I played today in a better ball and laid up to a bunker I could not carry.
I was tiring a bit but because of this thread I bent down and moved the rake from lying across the line of play to the " hogan" position, felt quite good with myself, then duffed my next shot, grrr!
Thanks Swingit.
		
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Can I just clarify that if the club does not clarify any rake position there is no such thing as "hogan" position.


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## dewsweeper (Mar 12, 2016)

Fish said:



			Can I just clarify that if the club does not clarify any rake position there is no such thing as "hogan" position.
		
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I thought  had posted quite a humourous tale!
Not meant to be taken too seriously!
Obviously not.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2016)

Managed to repair seven pitch marks on one green today. Really don't get our membership. Always vociferous in the bar about the state of the green and yet by and large they are the biggest reason why our green staff have to work so hard ot produce decent surfaces


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2016)

..and a quick poll of those around the table as we sat for three hours waiting for the fog to lift this morning found that most would move a rake carelessly left in the bunker to where the club suggests.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and a quick poll of those around the table as we sat for three hours waiting for the fog to lift this morning found that most would move a rake carelessly left in the bunker to where the club suggests.
		
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   you mean there are more like you .


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## Fish (Mar 12, 2016)

The poacher said:



			you mean there are more like you .

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Let's see how many there really are HERE


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2016)

richart said:



			I think most of us on here will do certain things on the course. Repair pitchmarks, replace divots, put sand in divots on the tee, pick up rubbish etc, it is just where do you stop ? Bunkers to me are hazards, and I will moan like hell if I get a bad lie, up against a rake, in a foot print, etc, but it is just rub of the green to me. Can honestly say I have never seen a playing partner reposition a rake that is already in a bunker in 40 years plus of playing.

Slightly off track, I do think some golfers need to be told how to rake a bunker. Don't pull all the sand to the back as you walk out. Push sand back to the middle. I have seen a playing partner at Blackmoor do this to a badly raked bunker, but he is a greenkeeper by profession at another club.
		
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Oops!

I've repositioned the odd rake, or raked a bunker that my ball wasn't even in. It only takes a few seconds.


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2016)

Just seen the photo and to be honest whoever puts rakes positioned like that in bunkers are complete bozos. If a ball lands short but is rolling into the bunker and is stopped by the handle of the rake and especially towards the end of the handle you've got an impossible shot towards the green! In fact the only way to play that after removing the rake is back the way it came from! It's as bad as not repairing , replacing or raking............


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## richart (Mar 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and a quick poll of those around the table as we sat for three hours waiting for the fog to lift this morning found that most would move a rake carelessly left in the bunker to where the club suggests.
		
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 I wonder how the question was posed ? You might get two different answers if you put the question :

You see a rake poorly positioned in a bunker, which could unfairly penalise the players behind you, would you just totally ignore it ? or

You are walking to your ball on the green with a group behind you, would you take a detour to look into all the bunkers round the green to see if the rakes are badly positioned ?

A good politician can always get the answer they want, especially when there is peer presure not to look a right cad.:thup:

I still have yet to see a golfer move a rake in a bunker they are not in, but I admit I do play with a right shower with appalling etiquette.:thup:


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## garyinderry (Mar 12, 2016)

I rake the odd bunker if I walk past it and notice an obvious footprint.   couldn't give a toss where the rake is positioned.


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## TheDiablo (Mar 13, 2016)

I had the pleasure of playing at SILH course for the first time today. Unfortunately I found myself in far too many bunkers for my liking. Every single bunker had the rakes in the same position, so much so that I noticed this and was careful when replacing them.

I genuinely hadnt seen this thread before, stumbled across it via Fish poll. Maybe SILH attitude to other golfers has worn off to the rest of the membership, which doesn't seem a bad thing!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I had the pleasure of playing at SILH course for the first time today. Unfortunately I found myself in far too many bunkers for my liking. Every single bunker had the rakes in the same position, so much so that I noticed this and was careful when replacing them.

I genuinely hadnt seen this thread before, stumbled across it via Fish poll. Maybe SILH attitude to other golfers has worn off to the rest of the membership, which doesn't seem a bad thing!
		
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You actually played my track today - excellent - and do hope you enjoyed it.  I was out mid-afternoon by myself and played a few holes.  In general rakes were good  - middle of bunker pointing to the flag   But I did sort a few stupid ones as there there was a mixed match behind me.


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