# How to mark card in bogey competition for handicap



## wookie (May 6, 2013)

I understand the scoring itself for a bogey comp ( ie net par is a + net bogey a -) but should you hole out each time anyway for handicap purposes or does a loss just count as a net bogey as worse case rather then a nett double bogey as worse case in stableford?

Handicap wise today I have two two shot holes (hopefully not for much longer) but there is an upper limit of 18 as its a board comp so what should happen here?


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

You should hole out in the same way you would for a Stableford comp. And register the score with Gross Score in 1 column with win/loss/half in another column.

Qualifying Bogey comps have 1 stupid (imo) trait. You don't get credit, for handicap, for a birdie on a shot hole!


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## pbrown7582 (May 6, 2013)

Just one point here a nett par is a "0" not a + a nett birdie is + and nett bogey -.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

You absolutely don't have to hole out. You are playing Matchplay against the course and that is how you score it, lose the hole and that's it, no matter by how many shots you may have taken and the same in winning a hole -an albatross is of no value in this format score wise.

We had our pro tell everyone last year to hole out for the card, I told him that was wrong but he insisted, until he read the rules later and the comp was declared non qualifying as there were complaints about the instruction and the effect it had on how people played as there is a different mentality to Matchplay from strokeplay


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			You absolutely don't have to hole out. You are playing Matchplay against the course and that is how you score it, lose the hole and that's it, no matter by how many shots you may have taken and the same in winning a hole -an albatross is of no value in this format score wise.

We had our pro tell everyone last year to hole out for the card, I told him that was wrong but he insisted, until he read the rules later and the comp was declared non qualifying as there were complaints about the instruction and the effect it had on how people played as there is a different mentality to Matchplay from strokeplay
		
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Indeed, you can play it that way, but the OP stated 'for handicap purpose' which requires holing out.

Bogey comp is (somewhat bizarrely imo) actually defined as a Strokeplay competition - in Rules of Golf. Provided all other conditions apply, Congu encourage/require Bogey (and the rarer Par) comps to be qualifiers. The change in attitude is interesting but not one I like - though maybe should try more. I'm much happier taking the 1 point rather than being aggressive to halve and possibly score zero points. 

From memory, 2008 (or maybe 2004) was something of an epiphany for Congu's approach to Bogey/Par events. A previous club used to play Bogey as 3/4 h'cap making it a non-qualifier. Your Competition Rules may have been based on the earlier notion that they'd be NQ-ers. Picking up before holing out would automatically blob the hole for handicap.

So I believe your Pro was correct about holing out - for handicap! What 'Rules' were you referring to? If they were Terms of Comp, then the club should adjust them as per Congu's recommendation.


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## fundy (May 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, you can play it that way, but the OP stated 'for handicap purpose' which requires holing out.

Bogey comp is (somewhat bizarrely imo) actually defined as a Strokeplay competition - in Rules of Golf. Provided all other conditions apply, Congu encourage/require Bogey (and the rarer Par) comps to be qualifiers. The change in attitude is interesting but not one I like - though maybe should try more. *I'm much happier taking the 1 point rather than being aggressive to halve and possibly score zero points.* 

From memory, 2008 (or maybe 2004) was something of an epiphany for Congu's approach to Bogey/Par events. A previous club used to play Bogey as 3/4 h'cap making it a non-qualifier. Your Competition Rules may have been based on the earlier notion that they'd be NQ-ers. Picking up before holing out would automatically blob the hole for handicap.

So I believe your Pro was correct about holing out - for handicap! What 'Rules' were you referring to? If they were Terms of Comp, then the club should adjust them as per Congu's recommendation.
		
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Why on earth would you put how many stableford points you hypothetically would get if playing a stableford above trying to improve how you do in the bogey competition which is actually what you are playing?

If playing 4bbb do you lag putts when putting for a half so as not to lose a stableford point?


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

fundy said:



			Why on earth would you put how many stableford points you hypothetically would get if playing a stableford above trying to improve how you do in the bogey competition which is actually what you are playing?

If playing 4bbb do you lag putts when putting for a half so as not to lose a stableford point?
		
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I should probably have used 'equivalence/equivalent'. Handicap is a Stableford metric, so my '1 point equivalent' is of benefit to my handicap score, but still means a loss in the comp.

The important point that may be missed/worth re-stressing is that Bogey/Par comps are Strokeplay comps not Matchplay ones. The penalties for such things as playing ahead of the blocks, playing out of turn etc are as per Strokeplay.

In 4BBB, I'm only playing 1 comp/match. There are 2 elements to the qualifying Bogey one. And there would indeed be times when I would lag to halve in 4BBB too - I, with trickier putt, guarantee the half and then partner can go for the win.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

The rules of golf state for playing Bogie Comps


"The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes for each hole where the competitor makes a net score equal to or less than the fixed score."

So if you score worse than par nett then you don't have to record a score! If you are scoring for handicap purpose then you wouldn't be playing what, in effect, is a Matchplay against the course. You absolutely don't record any Stableford points.

No pro can tell you to ignore the rules of golf


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			The rules of golf state for playing Bogie Comps


"The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes for each hole where the competitor makes a net score equal to or less than the fixed score."

So if you score worse than par nett then you don't have to record a score! If you are scoring for handicap purpose then you wouldn't be playing what, in effect, is a Matchplay against the course. You absolutely don't record any Stableford points.

No pro can tell you to ignore the rules of golf
		
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Here's the Rule re Bogey/Par and Stablefors http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=BF8FFD19-94AE-4E7D-B6FA-670B2B072C23

Note the only reference in the rule to matchplay...

'The scoring for bogey and par competitions is made as in match play. '

The same rule also specifies that in Stableford comps (Handicap is a 'Stablefors metric, and qualifying comps can/should be considered these) ...

'The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes at each hole where the competitorâ€™s net score earns one or more points.' 

These scores have to be complimentary if the player is to gain any value from the '1-pointers' or nett-bogey in the handicap portion of the round.

Bogey/Par comps are certainly deemed eligible to be qualifying - just do a search for 'bogey/par' in the UHS manual.

Your Pro has certainly done nothing that BREAKS/IGNORES the Rules of Golf - merely  ADDED the requirement for Congu handicaps.

Unless the net-bogey/1-pointer scores are entered, please demonstrate how the proper values for such qualifying.

And you seemed to agree re qualifying on this thread...

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-38886.html


Note... I certainly never (intended to) imply that the Stableford score be entered. My original post stated 'as per Stableford' which is not the same as 'as Stableford'. Again subtle but important - same as Bogey/Par is subtlely but importantly different from Matchplay against the course.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Here's the Rule re Bogey/Par and Stablefors http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=BF8FFD19-94AE-4E7D-B6FA-670B2B072C23

Note the only reference in the rule to matchplay...

'The scoring for bogey and par competitions is made as in match play. '

The same rule also specifies that in Stableford comps (Handicap is a 'Stablefors metric, and qualifying comps can/should be considered these) ...

'The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes at each hole where the competitorâ€™s net score earns one or more points.' 

These scores have to be complimentary if the player is to gain any value from the '1-pointers' or nett-bogey in the handicap portion of the round.

Bogey/Par comps are certainly deemed eligible to be qualifying - just do a search for 'bogey/par' in the UHS manual.

Your Pro has certainly done nothing that BREAKS the Roles of Golf - merely  ADDED the requirement for Congu handicaps.

Unless the net-bogey/1-pointer scores are entered, please demonstrate how the proper values for such qualifying.

And you seemed to agree re qualifying on this thread...

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-38886.html


Note... I certainly never (intended to) imply that the Stableford score be entered. My original post stated 'as per Stableford' which is not the same as 'as Stableford'. Again subtle but important - same as Bogey/Par is subtlely but importantly different from Matchplay against the course.
		
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I quoted rule 32 - 1a and the requirement is to record only scores which, in effect, count.  To tell everyone to hole out and record a score is contrary IMO to the rules of golf and, in essence, change the nature of the game and rules. The reason to call it as rules of stroke play is to stop players agreeing to ignore transgressions of the rules as they are entitled to do in Matchplay because the end result affects the entire field and not just the players you are out with.

The pro is not entitled to add to golf rules for CONGU handicap purposes!


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I quoted rule 32 - 1a and the requirement is to record only scores which, in effect, count.  To tell everyone to hole out and record a score is contrary IMO to the rules of golf and, in essence, change the nature of the game and rules. The reason to call it as rules of stroke play is to stop players agreeing to ignore transgressions of the rules as they are entitled to do in Matchplay because the end result affects the entire field and not just the players you are out with.

The pro is not entitled to add to golf rules for CONGU handicap purposes!
		
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Wrong/mis-interpreted in both paras!

1. Here's the statement in Rule 32.

'Bogey, par and Stableford competitions are forms of stroke play in which play is against a fixed score at each hole. The Rules for stroke play, so far as they are not at variance with the following specific Rules, apply. '

So Bogey/Par are the same degree of Strokeplay as Stableford - end of story!

2. As well as playing according to the Rules of Golf, in a qualifying competition you have some *additional* responsibilities.

Here's the first reference I found, but the UHS manual has them all.



You haven't answered my question about how those who scored nett-bogey/1-pointers get credit for that score in the 'for handicap' part of the round! Unless you can satisfactorily do so, your entire argument is just hot air!


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

I would prefer this to be questioned in the Rules section of the forum.

Our club when the instruction was given by the pro to hole out and record scores were advised to treat it as a non qualifier as that instruction was considered as being against the rules of golf. 

If some competitors decide not to hole out, as per the Rules, then they can't be penalised for their actions. In essence Stableford and bogie comps are scored exactly the same except that a one pointer in Stableford is of no use in bogie comps and therefore no score need to be recorded and no one can be penalised for their failure to write a score on their card.

I guess that in "Stableford adjustment" a no score is adjusted to a nett double bogie for handicapping but if the Rules of Golf state that you only have to record the score if it betters or equals the fixed score, and the fixed score is par on the hole, then as the rules are paramount you DO NOT have to write a score if it doesn't equal or better nett par!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 6, 2013)

We have one bogey comp and it is played as a qualifier and we are told to hole out. It has been the subject of much debate as I along with many others think we played this as a non-qualifier until about 5 years ago and there wasn't the need to play the hole out. Its been decided that the current method stands and so its treated much the same as a medal


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## fundy (May 6, 2013)

If that was the case for our bogey comp Id either not bother playing or would almost undoubtedly NR for handicap purposes, either its a bogey comp or a medal - not both


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I would prefer this to be questioned in the Rules section of the forum.

Our club when the instruction was given by the pro to hole out and record scores were advised to treat it as a non qualifier as that instruction was considered as being against the rules of golf. 

If some competitors decide not to hole out, as per the Rules, then they can't be penalised for their actions. In essence Stableford and bogie comps are scored exactly the same except that a one pointer in Stableford is of no use in bogie comps and therefore no score need to be recorded and no one can be penalised for their failure to write a score on their card.

I guess that in "Stableford adjustment" a no score is adjusted to a nett double bogie for handicapping but if the Rules of Golf state that you only have to record the score if it betters or equals the fixed score, and the fixed score is par on the hole, then as the rules are paramount you DO NOT have to write a score if it doesn't equal or better nett par!
		
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Where the thread resides is beside the point. Neither forum is absolutely appropriate.

You are also mis-interpreting the 'Stableford Adjustment' term and what I was asking. SA reduces scores over net DOUBLE-bogey to net DB. 

My question (not a Rules one - a Congu/handicap one) was about net single bogey - which would score 1 point in a stableford comp. YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION about how credit for those scores, if made, can be given if the player doesn't hole out and the marker record it!

As Homer posts (and I did earlie and will repeat herer) Congu encouraged/required Bogey comps to be made qualifying so the 3/4 (= non-qualifying) and 'no need to hole out' custom was changed/dropped. Like so many things in golf (and elsewhere) mis-understandings result when not everyone is aware of changed procedures.

Now, answer the question - if you can! Otherwise you have o admit that the Pro was correct! Though the confusion justified the comp being NQ-ised imo.

And I'm not totally against you. I'm not keen on Bogey comps being qualifiers - for the reasons previously posted. But the knowledge that they are, and their quirks, provides me with the option on how to play them.



fundy said:



			If that was the case for our bogey comp Id either not bother playing or would almost undoubtedly NR for handicap purposes, either its a bogey comp or a medal - not both
		
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Sort of agree! Though if your term 'Medal' was changed to 'qualifier', then Yes it is both. I'd sooner it wasn't.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Where the thread resides is beside the point. Neither forum is absolutely appropriate.

You are also mis-interpreting the 'Stableford Adjustment' term and what I was asking. SA reduces scores over net DOUBLE-bogey to net DB. 

My question (not a Rules one - a Congu/handicap one) was about net single bogey - which would score 1 point in a stableford comp. YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION about how credit for those scores, if made, can be given if the player doesn't hole out and the marker record it!

.
		
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The Congu book contains an appendix "d" for calculating "table for converting par/bogey and Stableford scores to nett differentials" all these comps could have cards with scores and holes missing but not n/r'd. It's on page 62.


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## rosecott (May 6, 2013)

I think the OP wanted quite simple answers.

Yes, the competition can be a qualifier even if there is a restriction on handicap, providing the player's score is entered on those holes where he would have received 2 shots and cards are processed using full handicap.

There is no requirement to hole out when the player has lost a hole, except as mentioned above on holes where the player would have received 2 shots.

Stableford and bogey results are converted to nett differentials for handicap purposes and the strokeplay/medal score achieved in a bogey competition is not relevant. On a par 72/CSS 72 course 36 stableford points and all square on bogey are "playing to handicap".

Stableford Adjustment does not apply to bogey competitions.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

rosecott said:



			I think the OP wanted quite simple answers.

Yes, the competition can be a qualifier even if there is a restriction on handicap, providing the player's score is entered on those holes where he would have received 2 shots and cards are processed using full handicap.

There is no requirement to hole out when the player has lost a hole, except as mentioned above on holes where the player would have received 2 shots.

Stableford and bogey results are converted to nett differentials for handicap purposes and the strokeplay/medal score achieved in a bogey competition is not relevant. On a par 72/CSS 72 course 36 stableford points and all square on bogey are "playing to handicap".

Stableford Adjustment does not apply to bogey competitions.
		
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Put better than me Rose but essentially the same conclusion i think. I think that Foxholer just wound me up a little with his abrasive postings. I stand by my original comments that players can't be instructed to hole out and record a score in a Bogie comp!


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## rosecott (May 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I think that Foxholer just wound me up a little with his abrasive postings.
		
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Be calm - you'll last longer.


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## chrisd (May 6, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Be calm - you'll last longer.
		
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Agreed Rose. My first post was simply to counter Foxholers instruction that the op should hole "as in a Stableford comp" which I knew was incorrect.


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## Foxholer (May 7, 2013)

I was wrong!

Rosie's reference to Appendix D made me check the UHS manul. Just as there's no additional benefit for a birdie on a stroke hole, a loss by 1 shot counts as much/little for handicap as a loss by 2 or more would.

Apologies Chris; thanks Rosie!

So no need to hole out once hole is lost - though no damage (apart from time) if you do. The comp could have been left as qualifying though.


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## chrisd (May 7, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I was wrong!

Rosie's reference to Appendix D made me check the UHS manul. Just as there's no additional benefit for a birdie on a stroke hole, a loss by 1 shot counts as much/little for handicap as a loss by 2 or more would.

Apologies Chris; thanks Rosie!

So no need to hole out once hole is lost - though no damage (apart from time) if you do. The comp could have been left as qualifying though.
		
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I did point you to appendix D in my post number 16 - it does take a man to apologise and I unreservedly accept it , thanks Foxholer.


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