# GM Top 100 rankings - live Q&A today 1-3pm



## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Hi all 
Here's your chance to ask anything you want to about the GM Top100 course rankings that were published last week
From 1-3pm today I will be online with my two fellow senior panelists Jezz Ellwood and Rob Smith. 
Between us we have played every course in the Top 200 with Jezz having played every one of the current Top 100 and Rob all bar Close House (I'm lagging at 74). 
You can start posting up questions on this thread now and if you don't see this until after the Q&A finishes we'll be checking in regularly and replying in the coming days 
Let the debate begin!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2014)

Many of these courses seem to be at the very top end of the green fee scale (if they let visitors on at all) and does exclusivity and the cost play a part in the decision process and would there be an argument for introducing a similar top 100 for courses far more attainable for the majority of golfers. I totally understand the aura and uniqueness of an Old Course ar St Andrews etc and for a one off treat I'd have no qualms paying top price. However to play a lot in the top 100 especially in the golfing season (April-OCtober) cost would be seen as prohibitive for a lot of people


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2014)

How can a course that doesn't allow visitors be judged on their "welcome" ?


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can a course that doesn't allow visitors be judged on their "welcome" ?
		
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+1 to that Phil.

for a course to be in the top 100, surely they should be accessible to all.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can a course that doesn't allow visitors be judged on their "welcome" ?
		
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Members guests?


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2014)

With relation to Homers post, why hasn't there been a top 100 courses under Â£100 been done? With some of those green fees in excess of Â£200, to play the top 100 courses would cost more than most can afford, that is if you can even get a round on them.


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2014)

SammmeBee said:



			Members guests?
		
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There is the problem, you need to know the right person to get a round on them.


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## MendieGK (Dec 1, 2014)

are courses reassessed every time or just past experience used? Also, do factors such as weather/performance affect your opinion of the course (i know mine do).

how is West Sussex ranked so highly in the rankings all the time? 1 450yd par 5? only 2 balls allowed? dont get it. never will.


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

Is it possible to publish the scores of the top 200?

and

Since you started compiling the top 100 what are the biggest changes/trends you have seen at courses?


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2014)

What courses do the various panellists really disagree on (if any)? What courses produce your biggest debates? And do any of you have a personal favourite course you'd love to see on the list but can't get it there based on the formal points system or can't convince the others to back?


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

When assessing the quality of test & design of a course do you take into account different playing ability and style of play?

For example some courses would be long slogs for shorter hitters, especially if they are taking a lot of shots as well.
Whereas other courses might be very tight and a big hitter (perhaps not the most accurate) might find this less interesting if having to hold back.


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

County Sligo is a new entry at 93 in your list despite you saying it is one of Colts best courses.  What has changed to warrant its inclusion?  Personally I am very happy to see it in the top 100


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Experience : Do the Clubs know when you are coming to play the courses, and if so doesn't that affect the welcome/experience you receive ?  I would imagine the red carpet is rolled out when a GM staffer is playing.

Condition and presentation : Do you visit courses in the winter and summer to assess condition and presentation ? Most courses will look great in the summer months, but the rest of the year they may be poor. I have played a lot of the top 100 courses in the winter when the green fees are much more reasonable. Courses like Saunton are still in top condition, where as some can be soggy, muddy and not worth the winter green fees.


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

You obviously can't be playing all courses in the country, so how do you decide which to play and how can you be sure you aren't missing a potential new entrant to the top 200 courses listed?


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## CMAC (Dec 1, 2014)

whats the main panelists criteria in..

a) Setting out which courses to have in the pool before establishing a shortlist? i.e last years top 100 or do you collate from another external list as the foundation.

b) how much weight is afforded the scale based on the users personal playing round i.e great round good review, crap round with bad luck lesser review? or do you have a process to ensure that doesn't sway a rating?

c) Should future ratings have a bigger weighting towards a large poll from actual golfers as opposed to a few therefore minimising personal preferences?


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## Slab (Dec 1, 2014)

Do courses invite you to come and assess them for possible inclusion in the list & what ratio of courses did the three named in the OP visit for this list as opposed to the other assessors that go round

Edit: does a course visit for this list center around playing a round of golf or do you go to assess the course first and maybe knock a fair few shots as part of the visit to test the holes etc

edit edit: do you show the 5 category marks achieved anywhere?
i.e if a top 100/200 club scores near perfection in 4 areas but isn't number one because their welcome is the pits, how would potential visitors know?


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## Junior (Dec 1, 2014)

On the Top 100 discussion thread, I felt a bit of a lone voice supporting (and understanding) the positions of Royal Liverpool and the Belfry.  These 2 venue's seem to come in for forum critisism year after year......could you explain the theory behind how these ended up where they did.    

thanks


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## Snelly (Dec 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can a course that doesn't allow visitors be judged on their "welcome" ?
		
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Because it is about ranking the top 100 courses.  Not about ranking the top 100 courses with a few caveats added to cater to the moans and whines of a few online class warriors who don't like being excluded. 

Or maybe they are judged on their welcome and don't score very highly??


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## Snelly (Dec 1, 2014)

My question is in which categories does Muirfield outscore RCD?  I have played both, the latter a few times, and just don't see how anyone would think Muirfield is better.  I concede that the food is better at Muirfield, probably.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

sorry been held up in a meeting and Rob can't log-in to the forum so his responses will come through a doris stokes medium (aka me or jezz)


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

Good afternoon all. Iâ€™m going to respond first to the comments about exclusivity and cost from this and the earlier main threadâ€¦

* For this particular project, we want it to be the Top 100 with no sub criteria, other than we canâ€™t include courses that won't allow access for our assessors (currently Queenwood and Skibo Castle). The assessments are key to our process, so any course we are not able to assess cannot be included, but beyond that every course that allows our assessors access is included.

* Even if we were to exclude the courses that donâ€™t take visitors, that alone would have very little impact on the list as I believe there are only 4 (Wisley, Renaissance, Bearwood Lakes and Loch Lomond) that fall into that category. So a Top 100 without them would hardly look any different, which brings us on to priceâ€¦

* Firstly, I should say that we have quoted high-season peak rates in the mag, but many of the courses can be played for significantly less at certain times of day or year, or when special deals are available including stay and play deals at some places.

* Beyond that, we donâ€™t believe that price should be a factor in determining a ranking of the very best things, just as it wouldnâ€™t be for a ranking of cars or whatever. Value does come into it, but that is a difficult thing to quantify/assess. Most people have something in their lives that they are prepared to push the boat out for (house, car, TV, musical equipment etc), which others might look at and say "I would never pay that." People have choices as to how to they spend their money and some choose, or are able, to treat themselves to very nice golfing experiences.

* I have always used a car analogy here for two reasons. Generally, people are happy to read about Ferraris and Maseratis even if they have no chance of ever owning one. The success of Top Gear is proof of that. Beyond that, all cars will get you from A to B, but for some people it's about the experience along the way. I think itâ€™s the same with golf courses. On a personal level, I always look back to my pre-Golf Monthly days when Loch Lomond first opened, and have to say I wanted to find out everything I could about it even though as far as I was aware at the time I would have no chance of ever playing it!

* We have done â€˜valueâ€™ and â€˜hidden gemâ€™ projects and lists in the past and will continue to do so. The majority of the courses we cover every month in features like our regular Golferâ€™s Guide are affordable, but for us the Top 100 is a special project with a different remit celebrating the very best courses in the land.

* Finally, I would just say we have always steered clear of the 'best courses under Â£50, Â£60, 100' or whatever the figure is because we believe that to be a fundamentally flawed concept - the kind of money that will perhaps get you on a nice members' club in certain parts of the country, will get you on a Top 100 course in other areas.


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			What courses do the various panellists really disagree on (if any)? What courses produce your biggest debates? And do any of you have a personal favourite course you'd love to see on the list but can't get it there based on the formal points system or can't convince the others to back?
		
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There are lots of differences of opinion in the whole process. It's not just the three of us, but a far wider panel feeding back their thoughts and views which we then seek to collate and moderate.

Personally, I have two that I think should just be in if it were solely down to me - Slaley Hall's Hunting course which I have always really rated, and Seacroft, a superb links near Skegness that is perhaps not as well known as many of our great links courses.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 1, 2014)

Interested to hear how you guys would score a course like Askernish or Machrihanish Dunes, where the intentionally rustic condition of the course is part of the golfers unique experience.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			There is the problem, you need to know the right person to get a round on them.
		
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I think you'd be surprised how many of these clubs you can get a game on if you try hard enouggh either by networking a contact, making friends with the friend of a friend who is a member. Centurion is members and guests only but how many forumers have played it becuase they have accepted an invite from Rick

Rye used to be strictly members and guests only...but if you wrote a nice letter to the secretary saying you were a courses enthusiast and were very keen to play.. you'd get a game

Depends how much you want to play. If you just sit back and expect it to come to you (of make an online booking!) it wont happen.

Bit like pretty girls (or hamdsome men for our female forumers). You have to work a little bit harder!


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

MendieGK said:



			are courses reassessed every time or just past experience used? Also, do factors such as weather/performance affect your opinion of the course (i know mine do).

how is West Sussex ranked so highly in the rankings all the time? 1 450yd par 5? only 2 balls allowed? dont get it. never will.
		
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We commit to every course on our contender list being visited during the current assessing window, so we are not relying solely on past experiences, but more recent visits that will alert us more fully to the impact of any changes either negative or positive.

In recent years this has resulted in some courses coming onto the list as they improve conditioning, layout or whatever, and others dropping off as things take a slightly backward step for whatever reason.

As for West Sussex, it's horses for courses, of course, but that's certainly one whose presence in the Top 100 I can't remember being queried before. Having just one par 5 should have no bearing on the quality of the course, and in many ways it makes the test stronger overall because you only get that one chance and it comes right at the very start before you're fully warmed up. Mind you, there's no excuse for not being warmed up there with the fantastic practice facilities on offer!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Snelly said:



			My question is in which categories does Muirfield outscore RCD?  I have played both, the latter a few times, and just don't see how anyone would think Muirfield is better.  I concede that the food is better at Muirfield, probably.
		
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In the top 5 I think we could all make a case for any of those courses being number 1 - it really is splitting hairs at that level
where in our view does Muirfield outrank RCD...
more consistent over 18 holes RCD has several holes that are signifcantly weaker than its best
the concentric routing means you never play with the wind at your back or in your face for a stretch as you do at RCD
a more special/exclusive feeling there becuase it isnt packed out with visiting golfers
a greater sense of occasion from arrival to departure
better year round conditions as it gets significantly less play
too many blind shots at RCD
more history at Muirfield
a significantly better lunch at Muirfield
no views of caravan parks
less expensive than RCD

In the end this came down to a decision by those who had played both - and we all opted for Muirfield


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## GB72 (Dec 1, 2014)

How do you assess the 'welcome' and 'facilities' that you get at a course. Do you run through the full experience from having a meal and a few drinks etc or does time not permit that. Do you ever suspect that the experience that you get at a course changes because you are from GM (most courses must at least known Mike and Jezz on sight even if the visit is not announced). Do you react if you get reports on, for example, the forum, that the experience that the general public is getting does not match the experience that GM have been getting on an assessment visit.


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

Snelly said:



			My question is in which categories does Muirfield outscore RCD?  I have played both, the latter a few times, and just don't see how anyone would think Muirfield is better.  I concede that the food is better at Muirfield, probably.
		
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I speak purely for myself here, though I know at least one other panellist feels the same...

Of course, there's no doubt that RCD wins on the wow factor by a long way, but - and bearing in mind we're talking about trying to find reasons to separate what we are saying are the two best courses in the land - I personally feel it tails off a little midway through the back nine with that slightly less exciting par 3 down into the far corner and the hole that follows that.

Others will point to the number of blind shots, but it is really the above that does it for me.

Muirfield is less spectacular, no doubt about it, but someone the other day asked me to name my least favourite hole on the course, and I struggled to do it. It's just a solid test of golf from start to finish, with no tricks.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Junior said:



			On the Top 100 discussion thread, I felt a bit of a lone voice supporting (and understanding) the positions of Royal Liverpool and the Belfry.  These 2 venue's seem to come in for forum critisism year after year......could you explain the theory behind how these ended up where they did.    

thanks
		
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both are very serious (albeit very different) tests of your game 
both benefit from an very high standard of playing surfaces year round
the fact one has hosted numerous Opens and the other Ryder Cups and significant Tour events adds greatly to the sense of occasion knowing your are following in the footsteps of many greats of the game and playing over courses that have witnessed signifciant golfing history
no club/clubhouse boasts more history than RLGC
for an 'elite' club RLGC is incredibly visitor friendly
the sevice at The Belfry from the golf ops team is of a very high standard


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

lobthewedge said:



			Interested to hear how you guys would score a course like Askernish or Machrihanish Dunes, where the intentionally rustic condition of the course is part of the golfers unique experience.
		
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I've played both, and while Askernish would have no aspirations or designs on any overall Top 100 lists, it is a wonderful place to play golf if you can slightly suspend your modern 21st century expectations over conditioning, green speed etc. I have no problem doing that and really enjoy the experience every time I visit, and the course conditioning is improving all the time.

As for Machrihanish Dunes, it is a stirring course that was in our Top 100 but dropped out last time following problems created by the severe winter storms they'd had there. That doesn't mean it's gone forever, but the feedback from assessors this time round suggested there was still some further bedding in of reinstated areas required.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

GB72 said:



			How do you assess the 'welcome' and 'facilities' that you get at a course. Do you run through the full experience from having a meal and a few drinks etc or does time not permit that. Do you ever suspect that the experience that you get at a course changes because you are from GM (most courses must at least known Mike and Jezz on sight even if the visit is not announced). Do you react if you get reports on, for example, the forum, that the experience that the general public is getting does not match the experience that GM have been getting on an assessment visit.
		
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visitor experience covers everything from entering through the gates to leaving at the end of the day.

noting our waistlines it wil come as little surprise to know that we do indeed sample bar and catering offerings and quality/value of the offerings 

we (senior panel through to reader panel) would all play quite a lot of contender courses with friends, in matches, as part of charity days ie incognito so get to see a lot warts and all 

I also think there is a limit to how much any club can 'roll out the red carpet' in that we visit often at short notice so the main thing - the golf course can't be manipulated for our benefit

we are lucky in that we dont have to pay green fees wherever we go if its for an assessment so there's no issue of being swayed by a freebie

I'd also like to think that being given a ballamrker pitchmark repairer or velour valuables bag as we are at many places has never affected my judgement of a golf course!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

matt611 said:



			County Sligo is a new entry at 93 in your list despite you saying it is one of Colts best courses.  What has changed to warrant its inclusion?  Personally I am very happy to see it in the top 100
		
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reply from Rob Smith...
County Sligo

County Sligo is one of just four new entries - two of them brand new courses, two who have moved up from the Next 100. Of the two promotions, Parkstone is largely as the result of some major and ongoing enhancements. The promotion of County Sligo, however, is more a reflection of the fact that over the years we have refined and improved our criteria to the stage where they are now stronger than ever. This has enabled us to have a more objective and informed view of what makes the cut, and the overwhelming evidence from all those who have played Rosses Point means that its inclusion is justified. I have been a couple of times, most recently three years ago, and can heartily recommend it. Recent reader visits support this.


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## IanG (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.
		
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In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature  focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses.


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## MendieGK (Dec 1, 2014)

Wentworth (West) continues to fall. I am one of few people on the forum the really advocates it. Whats been the recent views of the place? I've always found the greens to be 'below par' for the venue, but feel the course itself is fantastic and the changes were more than appropriate for a venue of such a big event


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 1, 2014)

IanG said:



			In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature  focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses.
		
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The "welcome" category might be of particular relevance here.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 1, 2014)

Having not played Trump International yet I can only go by the reaction of people that have played it.  All agree that it is a masterpiece, while some go as far to say it is the best course they have ever played, including one of your own assessors.  

Did the off course politics affect your decision making process when placing it at 14th and do you ever see it climbing higher and dethroning some of the more established golfing greats in the top 10?


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## GB72 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			visitor experience covers everything from entering through the gates to leaving at the end of the day.

noting our waistlines it wil come as little surprise to know that we do indeed sample bar and catering offerings and quality/value of the offerings 

we (senior panel through to reader panel) would all play quite a lot of contender courses with friends, in matches, as part of charity days ie incognito so get to see a lot warts and all 

I also think there is a limit to how much any club can 'roll out the red carpet' in that we visit often at short notice so the main thing - the golf course can't be manipulated for our benefit

we are lucky in that we dont have to pay green fees wherever we go if its for an assessment so there's no issue of being swayed by a freebie

I'd also like to think that being given a ballamrker pitchmark repairer or velour valuables bag as we are at many places has never affected my judgement of a golf course!
		
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Thanks Mike

Did not mean to infer that any rating is swayed by a freebie, was more looking at the way a club can cater an experience to improve the welcome given to that experienced by the general public in the way of a more friendly welcome, making sure that food and drinks are served quickly etc. Basically just giving it that extra edge on the day which Joe Public there on a deal may not get.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.
		
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Wait! This is a job you can apply for?



IanG said:



			In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature  focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure *one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses*.
		
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I dare say one or two might be persuaded! 

Have metaphorical clipboard, will travel!


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

matt611 said:



			Is it possible to publish the scores of the top 200?
		
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This from Rob Smith...

There are three reasons why we do not publish the scores in the various categories. The first is that for one person, wonderful means 7 out of 10, for another it means 9 out of 10. As part of the moderation process, and because we correspond regularly with our panellists and get to know them, we iron out those personal preferences to apply consistency across the board. Secondly, we very much look at the wording of the reports and the underlying messages behind them. Finally, although the reports from the reader panel and staff are at the heart of the process, we have other contacts throughout golf and their input embellishes the reviews. As such, the individual scores are just a part of the assessment.



matt611 said:



			Since you started compiling the top 100 what are the biggest changes/trends you have seen at courses?
		
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In response to your second query, I would say there has been a strong trend in recent years among courses either on our list, or looking to get onto ours or other lists, towards investing heavily in their courses after long periods of relative inactivity on that front in many quarters.

There has been an awful lot of bunker work done in recent years at courses such as Parkstone, Delamere Forest (a contender course), Aberdovey and others that has resulted in courses that not only look better, but also play better. I had the privilege of walking round Delamere as the work was being carried out, with aerial photos showing just how much the bunkering had changed over the years, and not for the better.

Many heathland courses are also looking to strip things out to take them back closer to their heathland roots too, with those designed by some of most famous architects (Colt and MacKenzie) even looking to reinstate original features that have been lost over the years.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2014)

Great idea for a thread gents, I wonder who suggested this 

Jezz,

What is in the thinking in the decisions to leave the like's of Wallasey, Dundonald, either course at Archerfield, Glasgow Gailes and Little Aston out on the top 100?

I appreciate there is a million reasons why any course SHOULD be in it, but what makes these ones in particular miss? Particularly Archerfield due to the outstanding facilities and welcome you receive there.

I'm pretty biased and defensive of Wallasey naturally, but it has received some outstanding reviews this year from those who played it particularly during Open week


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.
		
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We initially put out a call to get involved in 2006 - we asked for golfers who had played a lot of courses, could commit to playing around 20 per 2-year assessing period and had a real interest in courses and golf course design to put themselves forward and include a golfing CV

We selected around 15 of which 2/3rds of the original panelists are still with us and their experience of seeing courses year on year to asses improvement or indeed drops in quality is invaluable as in a world of subjectivity having a benchmark to work from is crucial

I have put out one if not two calls to action to invite new applications panelists from forum members but surprisingly never had one application - even from the very opinionated types who youâ€™d think would be perfect for this!

We ask that those who put themselves forward have played at least 30 of the current top 100 (to enable them to benchmark), commit to playing at least 15 rounds on contender courses in the 2 year assessing window and then complete a sample assessment form for a course they have recently visited

Those who have read the issue of the mag with the rankings in it will see what goes into these forms but if you havenâ€™t then below is an example of a good one - this from one of our more recent recuits Tim Gallant - he is only 27years old but has already played close on 400 courses worldwide

Being brutally honest if you cant hit that level then you can't really add to the pool of assessors!

If you are selected then you pay all your expenses getting to and from courses and should expect to pay for all food and drinks on the day although you will often get a soup and sandwiches type. May assessors ask to take friends although they will always pay a green fee.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			We initially put out a call to get involved in 2006 - we asked for golfers who had played a lot of courses, could commit to playing around 20 per 2-year assessing period and had a real interest in courses and golf course design to put themselves forward and include a golfing CV

We selected around 15 of which 2/3rds of the original panelists are still with us and their experience of seeing courses year on year to asses improvement or indeed drops in quality is invaluable as in a world of subjectivity having a benchmark to work from is crucial

I have put out one if not two calls to action to invite new applications panelists from forum members but surprisingly never had one application - even from the very opinionated types who youâ€™d think would be perfect for this!

We ask that those who put themselves forward have played at least 30 of the current top 100 (to enable them to benchmark), commit to playing at least 15 rounds on contender courses in the 2 year assessing window and then complete a sample assessment form for a course they have recently visited

Those who have read the issue of the mag with the rankings in it will see what goes into these forms but if you havenâ€™t then below is an example of a good one - this from one of our more recent recuits Tim Gallant - he is only 27years old but has already played close on 400 courses worldwide

Being brutally honest if you cant hit that level then you can't really add to the pool of assessors!

If you are selected then you pay all your expenses getting to and from courses and should expect to pay for all food and drinks on the day although you will often get a soup and sandwiches type. May assessors ask to take friends although they will always pay a green fee.

View attachment 13091

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Thanks Mike...I meet the criteria, keep an eye on your inbox


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

JamesR said:



			When assessing the quality of test & design of a course do you take into account different playing ability and style of play?

For example some courses would be long slogs for shorter hitters, especially if they are taking a lot of shots as well.
Whereas other courses might be very tight and a big hitter (perhaps not the most accurate) might find this less interesting if having to hold back.
		
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Our panel covers a wide variety of golfers from 2 hcap up to 18 handicap and naturally within that there's a wide spread of golfing style so while we cant produce a ranking of the top 100 courses long but wild hitters will enjoy we are confident our panel is representative of the type of golfers who want to visit top 100 courses and who are prepared to pay their own hard earned money to play there - our strapline has always been a ranking for golfers, by golfers

This has always been our key difference to the likes of Golf World whose panel was packed with Tour pros and elite amateurs (who play a different game to the rest of us) architects (who look at courses in a way no ordinary golfers do) and dear old Peter Alliss (who hasn't stepped foot on a golf course to play 18 holes for quite sometime)


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

CMAC said:



			whats the main panelists criteria in..

a) Setting out which courses to have in the pool before establishing a shortlist? i.e last years top 100 or do you collate from another external list as the foundation.
		
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All of the previous time's Top 100 will automatically be in there, and then somewhere in the region of 50 or so courses in our Next 100 that we believe have realistic contender status. This will be based on the feedback we've received over the years from our panellists; news from within the industry about what courses/clubs have been doing what or investing in what; any newcomers that we're aware of that could be genuine contenders; information from any other sources that suggests we really need to consider certain courses. We have to limit the number under the assessing programme for logistics reasons as it's already a big undertaking ensuring we can get at least someone to each and every course in contention.



CMAC said:



			b) how much weight is afforded the scale based on the users personal playing round i.e great round good review, crap round with bad luck lesser review? or do you have a process to ensure that doesn't sway a rating?
		
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I'd like to think most of our panellists have been doing this long enough not to be swayed by how they're playing, and that's certainly the impression you get reading their in-depth feedback. Personally, I rarely have a scorecard in hand when I'm on a visit other than to make notes, but I would have no problem distancing how I'm playing from what I'm playing. In fact, if you are playing poorly, I find that it's almost easier to really take account of where you are, and everything around you than if you're half thinking, "par here to be out in 3-over" or whatever.



CMAC said:



			c) Should future ratings have a bigger weighting towards a large poll from actual golfers as opposed to a few therefore minimising personal preferences?
		
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Our panel are all actual golfers! We put great store in the experience of our assessors who have all played a great many golf courses, and been fully briefed as to what our rankings are looking for and how to go about the whole process. I'm not saying that other people haven't played as many courses, or wouldn't have as valid an opinion, but we have spent many years refining and strengthening our process and I would have reservations about a larger-scale poll where we might not necessarily know how broad the individual's experience is. One of the key things about our rankings is having panellists with the breadth of experience to make judgments about one course relative to another.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

From Rob Smith on the Contender List...

Contender List

Whilst we cannot play every course, we know someone who can ! We seek and listen to feedback from all of our readers, and we have contacts in and out of the industry that play regularly at courses of every standard. The Contender list will always be the previous Top 100, and those from the Next 100 (or even brand new courses such as Trump Links Scotland) that we feel stand a realistic chance of gaining entry. We, and the advisory panel, play a great deal of golf and speak with other keen golfers all the time. It would also be wrong to disregard other rankings, even if we feel our criteria are the best. I have played more than 100 different courses since the start of 2013, Jezz has done similarly, we have contacts everywhere, read all that we can, and believe we have as comprehensive a view as anyone. As ever, if you feel there is something we need to know about, please tell us !!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

From Rob Smith on Red Carpet Treatment/assesing at different times of the year

Our assessment visits take place at any time of the year and in any weather. Sometimes the club knows we are coming, but often the visits take place as part of a match, a society or corporate visit, an open competition, or even an off-duty round with a member. Occasionally clubs ask to delay a visit if they are undergoing some specific work or perhaps repair following last winterâ€™s flooding, but with limited resources, assessments have to be made at all times. Our panellists are all very experienced and apply that knowledge to understand how, given normal circumstances, the course will be during the main season. We also hope to get more than one visit to each course so that we can compare different times and conditions.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2014)

Has any of the panel ever experienced pretty poor customer service/welcome at any club (not asking for any names)?  And if so has this influenced its position in the rankings?


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

Some areas are renowned as top regions for golf - Surrey, Southport, Scottish Links etc, but some are not so well known, such as Derbyshire & Leicestershire.

Is there equality in visits to all regions or are some favoured due to there good name?

(ps, if it comes across that way, this isn't meant to sound like an accusation of bias)


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2014)

Does the relative lack of love in the forum and questioning of their positions in the top 100 for places like The Belfry and The Grove surprise you?


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Has any of the panel ever experienced pretty poor customer service/welcome at any club (not asking for any names)?  And if so has this influenced its position in the rankings?
		
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yes, I even wrote an eds letter about one of the two 2 clubs in recent memory who managed to get it very wrong - both are/were close to getting into the Top 100. Both missed out and this had a not insignificant bearing on the final outcome


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Does the relative lack of love in the forum and questioning of their positions in the top 100 for places like The Belfry and The Grove surprise you?
		
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no not really, I think both have their fans and detractors

I think with the Grove you have to play lots of courses to appreciate just how good a design job Phillips has done on an unremarkable bit of land and how well the course is presented 
like The Belfry the quality of visitor experience/service is high 
Belfry covered off in a post above - we didnt used to have it in but after massive chnages and improvements under Kenny Mackay's stewardship as course manager allied to redesign of holes and better off course service pushed it into the list

both have dropped in this ranking and are now in the ultra competitive 80-100 zone

Neither are locks for future Top 100s if they dont keep delivering on the conditioning/welcome


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## Duckster (Dec 1, 2014)

Do you take into consideration the current course ranking on any other websites/magazines or is it purely down to the GM assessors own opinions and experiences?

Also, do you find that courses which are holding The Open tend to move up a few places, more on the fact that they are currently on the  Open rota rather than on their actual merit?


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			Experience : Do the Clubs know when you are coming to play the courses, and if so doesn't that affect the welcome/experience you receive ?  I would imagine the red carpet is rolled out when a GM staffer is playing.

Condition and presentation : Do you visit courses in the winter and summer to assess condition and presentation ? Most courses will look great in the summer months, but the rest of the year they may be poor. I have played a lot of the top 100 courses in the winter when the green fees are much more reasonable. Courses like Saunton are still in top condition, where as some can be soggy, muddy and not worth the winter green fees.
		
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 Any comments ?


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

JamesR said:



			Some areas are renowned as top regions for golf - Surrey, Southport, Scottish Links etc, but some are not so well known, such as Derbyshire & Leicestershire.

Is there equality in visits to all regions or are some favoured due to there good name?

(ps, if it comes across that way, this isn't meant to sound like an accusation of bias)
		
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I think there is a reason why areas like Surrey/Berks sandbelt, the North West and Scotland dominate these and all rankings... they have high quality courses, built on great golfing land and the fact they have been there for 100 plus years means they have built up history and a sense of aura or occasion when visiting

Jezz and Rob have both played extensively in lesser known counties and regularly sing the praises of them in their golfers guide features in the mag

Indeed, Cavendish in Derbyshire made it into the next 100 on the strength of Rob playing it as part of his boys' golf tour this year


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			Any comments ?
		
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yep post 47 above


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Rob Smith on Differences on the Panel

If you had asked this question when we began the process a few years ago, I would have said that we all have strong and different views on what makes a great course. As we have refined the process, we have individually learnt more about what makes a good course great, and so have got to the point where consensus is not tricky, especially as it is a democratic process and we respect one anotherâ€™s views. Having said that, it is also great that we have our own preferences, and if it was up to me and me alone, Enniscrone would be in there !


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

From Rob Smith on Clubs That Didnâ€™t Make It

The question about why certain clubs were excluded from the Top 100 is an interesting one which has two very simple answers. The first is that exclusion is never a part of the process - we are simply looking for the best of the best, what to INclude. The second is that we are stumped by the laws of mathematics. It would be absolutely lovely of we could squeeze 125 into 100â€¦!


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			yep post 47 above
		
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 Thanks Mike missed that one.


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

Val said:



			Great idea for a thread gents, I wonder who suggested this 

Jezz,

What is in the thinking in the decisions to leave the like's of Wallasey, Dundonald, either course at Archerfield, Glasgow Gailes and Little Aston out on the top 100?

I appreciate there is a million reasons why any course SHOULD be in it, but what makes these ones in particular miss? Particularly Archerfield due to the outstanding facilities and welcome you receive there.

I'm pretty biased and defensive of Wallasey naturally, but it has received some outstanding reviews this year from those who played it particularly during Open week
		
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Val,

You may not be surprised to learn that all the courses you mention are close, and in some ways the hardest part of the whole ranking process is deciding which courses fill the spots from 85-100 and which would, in theory, at least - for we don't rank the Next 100 - be those nipping at their heels the other side of the divide.

There will be negligible differences between the course we rank 100th and the one that was theoretically closest to getting in but didn't make it, but as with all numerically limited lists, there has to be a cut-off point somewhere!

Starting with Wallasey, it always has been and always will be up for debate, but as others have mentioned in the other post, there are perhaps a few holes that let it down a little, among them the 10th - which seems to have Marmite-like qualities - and the holes towards the end of the front nine (I think) that play closest to the link road.

Dundonald has struggled at times in recent years on the condition front. I understand that it has improved greatly of late, although one of our assessors did still make reference to it in one or two places, and I also think it would be hard to have any course with a PortaKabin for a clubhouse in any list of the very finest courses in the land, however good that Portakabin may be. Our most recent assessor commented on that too - do you have an idea if a proper clubhouse is in the offing at some stage?

Several member of the GM team are regular visitors to Archerfield as a number of companies have hosted product launches there in recent years, and I've been many times in the past, most recently during the Muirfield Open. It is an excellent facility, with some of the best practice facilities and one of the best clubhouses in the country, but the feedback has always been that neither of the courses is quite Top 100, though very close.

I've not played Glasgow Gailes, but looking at our panellist feedback from this time, one felt it should be in and one not, and with so many courses getting unanimous nods, that always makes it a bit trickier.

Indeed, Glasgow Gailes and your final one, Little Aston, are two of the most highly regarded courses I've not yet played, so I will look to try and remedy that during the next assessing period to make my own judgment.

Mike has played Little Aston within the last year, and will be along in a moment to give you his thoughts on it...


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Biggest ommission for me in the top 100 is Broadstone.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Duckster said:



			Do you take into consideration the current course ranking on any other websites/magazines or is it purely down to the GM assessors own opinions and experiences?

Also, do you find that courses which are holding The Open tend to move up a few places, more on the fact that they are currently on the  Open rota rather than on their actual merit?
		
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good questions and the answers are sort of and yes, but for different reasons!

ref other rankings we like to look around and see what others are saying more to check we are not missing anything coming up on the blindside but we belive we clock up more visits and have a more robust assesing process than the others

ref Open courses always tend go up after hosting an Open as they will have been getting towards peak condition in the run up to the event and benefitting from investment on and off course making it as good as it possibly be can and then there's the added buzz/excitment of playing a course that has just hosted the world's greatest golf events

can they maintain their positin going forward that the thing!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			and if it was up to me and me alone, Enniscrone would be in there !
		
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Hurrah!!  I'm not the only one then


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

more from Rob on Belfry & Grove 

I would say that if there is a relative lack of love for these newer, more â€˜corporateâ€™ courses, then I am not surprised. In the UK & Ireland we are blessed with many of the finest courses in the world, and what we tend to love about them is that they are old, established, lovely, often quirky, but uniquely ours. The newer courses built to a more American design have their place, and these two are usually presented in tip-top condition. The water holes are exciting and very attractive. That we have such variety in the Top 100 is great, but I can see why they have their detractors. It is interesting, because whilst many golfers are traditionalists, you donâ€™t get many modernists who refuse to play anywhere older than 50 years that doesnâ€™t have USGA greens !


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			if it was up to me and me alone, Enniscrone would be in there !
		
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Good man


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## Val (Dec 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Val,

You may not be surprised to learn that all the courses you mention are close, and in some ways the hardest part of the whole ranking process is deciding which courses fill the spots from 85-100 and which would, in theory, at least - for we don't rank the Next 100 - be those nipping at their heels the other side of the divide.

There will be negligible differences between the course we rank 100th and the one that was theoretically closest to getting in but didn't make it, but as with all numerically limited lists, there has to be a cut-off point somewhere!

Starting with Wallasey, it always has been and always will be up for debate, but as others have mentioned in the other post, there are perhaps a few holes that let it down a little, among them the 10th - which seems to have Marmite-like qualities - and the holes towards the end of the front nine (I think) that play closest to the link road.

Dundonald has struggled at times in recent years on the condition front. I understand that it has improved greatly of late, although one of our assessors did still make reference to it in one or two places, and I also think it would be hard to have any course with a PortaKabin for a clubhouse in any list of the very finest courses in the land, however good that Portakabin may be. Our most recent assessor commented on that too - do you have an idea if a proper clubhouse is in the offing at some stage?

Several member of the GM team are regular visitors to Archerfield as a number of companies have hosted product launches there in recent years, and I've been many times in the past, most recently during the Muirfield Open. It is an excellent facility, with some of the best practice facilities and one of the best clubhouses in the country, but the feedback has always been that neither of the courses is quite Top 100, though very close.

I've not played Glasgow Gailes, but looking at our panellist feedback from this time, one felt it should be in and one not, and with so many courses getting unanimous nods, that always makes it a bit trickier.

Indeed, Glasgow Gailes and your final one, Little Aston, are two of the most highly regarded courses I've not yet played, so I will look to try and remedy that during the next assessing period to make my own judgment.

Mike has played Little Aston within the last year, and will be along in a moment to give you his thoughts on it...
		
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Thanks Jezz, I'll be 100% honest and say I cannot disagree with what you say about Wallasey as they were my original thoughts when I first played, I cannot abide that 10th hole, it's horrid and stands out as an imposter on the course.

Lots of rumours up here about Dundonlad and the clubhouse but thats about it, rumours. It's still being touted as a contender for the Scottish Open but to be fair no European Tour even really needs a clubhouse when there is such an abundance of portable temporary buildings available now.

Im surprised to hear you hadn't played Glasgow Gailes, I thought it would have been right up your street when up in Ayrshire. I think it's one for a links lover who like the course relatively flat with minor changes in elevation with fairways lined by gorse and heather, it's not got the gradure of the dunes you'll see at the likes of Royal Aberdeen or Trump and in a way it's probably more in the mould of a Royal Lytham.


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Is it fair to assess a course that you visit in the winter over one you visit in the summer ? Links course may hardly differ, but a heathland with the heather in full bloom is going to look much more attractive than when it has died back in the winter. Parkland courses like Coombe Hill look stunning in May with bluebells out, trees coming into leaf, but in winter can look quite bare.


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

I'm interested to know where clubs like Ashridge and New Zealand place.  Both are currently in the next 100 but I believe have previously been in the top 100.  Are clubs like this going downhill or simple being left behind by the quality of other clubs?


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Mike has played Little Aston within the last year, and will be along in a moment to give you his thoughts on it...
		
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Little Aston is very typical of the courses that just miss out... but which could get in
As Jezz said I played it last year durting the assesing period and really enjoyed my day there... thought the course was interesting, lots of history in the clubhouse, excellent pint of marstons and a steak and kidney pie. In fact I came back and said that I hoped it would get in...

However since then have played a nearly all the inland courses in the 80-100 zone (and a few that also missed out) and in my view it didnt quite justify inclusion

however they are working hard at the course so could well nudge in next time


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

matt611 said:



			I'm interested to know where clubs like Ashridge and New Zealand place.  Both are currently in the next 100 but I believe have previously been in the top 100.  Are clubs like this going downhill or simple being left behind by the quality of other clubs?
		
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neither have ever made it into our lists but both are in the very close bracket - 100-120 for both of them


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2014)

is it possible for a course to just drop out of the 100 from one list to the next two years later?

Im talking on marks rather than not being assessed like Skibo.


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

I assume my course was marked down because we replaced the Alton Pride in the bar Mike ?


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			Is it fair to assess a course that you visit in the winter over one you visit in the summer ? Links course may hardly differ, but a heathland with the heather in full bloom is going to look much more attractive than when it has died back in the winter. Parkland courses like Coombe Hill look stunning in May with bluebells out, trees coming into leaf, but in winter can look quite bare.
		
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I think this is one of the reasons there are so many links in the list - they play well all year and indeed some would say come into thier own in November - April. Often they also have redudced green fees in the winter making them even more appealing

However I would add that a well manganed inland course should be playable all year round and those inland tracks who are performing really well in the rankings - Hankley, Sunningdale, Ganton, St Georges Hill all deliver year round


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## AmandaJR (Dec 1, 2014)

This might sound daft but here goes anyhow! Do you find it harder to objectively judge a course's positives when playing like a proper numpty or conversely to not wax lyrical about it when playing like a golfing god??

I think I'd struggle!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			I assume my course was marked down because we replaced the Alton Pride in the bar Mike ?

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ha ha!
enjoyed Blackmoor very much when i played it but a top 200 - not 100 course in my view


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			This might sound daft but here goes anyhow! Do you find it harder to objectively judge a course's positives when playing like a proper numpty or conversely to not wax lyrical about it when playing like a golfing god??

I think I'd struggle!
		
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think jezz has covered this off above in that when you're not playing well you can actually concentrate on assesing even more than when you are focusing on a good score

I have shot 98 and 92 (chopped it!) on my two visits to Royal Country Down but I rate it very highly!


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			I think this is one of the reasons there are so many links in the list - they play well all year and indeed some would say come into thier own in November - April. Often they also have redudced green fees in the winter making them even more appealing

However I would add that a well manganed inland course should be playable all year round and those inland tracks who are performing really well in the rankings - Hankley, Sunningdale, Ganton, St Georges Hill all deliver year round
		
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 Totally agree, love links golf in the winter. Heathland courses also stand up well, and I know our course only closed one day last winter. Hopefully a lot of courses that suffered last year will be working on their drainage, as wet winters seem to be the norm now.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			Biggest ommission for me in the top 100 is Broadstone.
		
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Rob Smith says..
Whilst Broadstone is undoubtedly a lovely course, I think that for it to make the jump from Next 100 to Top 100 would require the successful continuation of the recent work that that has seen, for example, the sixth transformed from a good par three into a great one. Having said that, there are few courses in the Next 100 that arenâ€™t lovely, and there will almost certainly be fans of all of them making the same claim !


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

Are there any courses which you are already on the look out for the next list?
Perhaps they didn't make top 200 this time around, but you know of work being carried out or changes in stewardship which may in a couple of years make the difference?
If so any names?

(I ask because Kedleston, my track is changing all the bunkering over the winters of 2013, 2014 & 2015, and we're hoping it will move up to a higher level with more recognition).


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			is it possible for a course to just drop out of the 100 from one list to the next two years later?

Im talking on marks rather than not being assessed like Skibo.
		
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yes four courses made way this year, Nefyn, Worlington and Newmarket, Killarney (Killeen) and Adare Mannor

the time before that we had a few drop put too - Mach Dunes for one


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Summer v Winter page 7â€¦.
 Rob Smith on winter vs summer visits


As mentioned elsewhere, limited resources mean that we have to make visits at all times of the year during the review cycle. The impact of winter maintenance or the lack of a flower in bloom is unavoidable, but all of our assessors use their experience to take this into account. I once played Kings and Queens at Gleneagles on a day when the rain didnâ€™t stop, the wind was up, and scoring was almost impossible. I enjoyed every minute, loved both courses, and could see just how glorious they would be at other times of the year.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			Rob Smith says..
Whilst Broadstone is undoubtedly a lovely course, I think that for it to make the jump from Next 100 to Top 100 would require the successful continuation of the recent work that that has seen, for example, the sixth transformed from a good par three into a great one. Having said that, there are few courses in the Next 100 that arenâ€™t lovely, and there will almost certainly be fans of all of them making the same claim !
		
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As an ex Broadstone member I can tell you that the recently departed General Manager believes it is a future top 50 course. It's good......but not even close to that standard!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

OK folks

me and the boys are off to dip our fingers in cold water and have a cuppa

thanks for all the questions - been great to be able to answer so many. Val, top idea!

we will contunue to look at this thread and reply to any other questions over the coming days and weeks


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## Val (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			OK folks

me and the boys are off to dip our fingers in cold water and have a cuppa

thanks for all the questions - been great to be able to answer so many. Val, top idea!

we will contunue to look at this thread and reply to any other questions over the coming days and weeks
		
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Thanks for the insight guys, it's been very interesting.


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## MendieGK (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			As an ex Broadstone member I can tell you that the recently departed General Manager believes it is a future top 50 course. It's good......but not even close to that standard!
		
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Holes like the 7th let it down a bit for me. Bloody stupid hole.


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			OK folks

me and the boys are off to dip our fingers in cold water and have a cuppa

thanks for all the questions - been great to be able to answer so many. Val, top idea!

we will contunue to look at this thread and reply to any other questions over the coming days and weeks
		
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Thanks guys, as someone who hasn't played a great many of the top courses I've found it interesting to hear how you make your choices, and may help me to decide where I want to play in future.



...and if you're ever in the golfing backwoods of Derby and fancy a knock on a, hopefully, future top 200 course give me a shout


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			OK folks

me and the boys are off to dip our fingers in cold water and have a cuppa

thanks for all the questions - been great to be able to answer so many. Val, top idea!

we will contunue to look at this thread and reply to any other questions over the coming days and weeks
		
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Cheers guys, good thread!


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## AmandaJR (Dec 1, 2014)

Excellent thread. Have to wonder how many club General Manager's are wringing their hands having not got in! I'm sure being in there must add to the revenue from green fees (assuming visitors are allowed)...


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			OK folks

me and the boys are off to dip our fingers in cold water and have a cuppa

thanks for all the questions - been great to be able to answer so many. Val, top idea!

we will contunue to look at this thread and reply to any other questions over the coming days and weeks
		
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Thanks guys, very interesting to get a little more insight into the top 100.  Especially interesting to get an idea of where courses in the next 100 sit.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2014)

Would you say that on average you gets what you pay for when it comes to green fees?  Or are there any courses that have shocked you in a good way regarding how good they really?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

How refreshing to read an entire thread that was both informative and interesting without a single bit of argy bargy.

Has the forum turned a corner?  

Cheers Mike and Jezz  :thup:


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			How refreshing to read an entire thread that was both informative and interesting without a single bit of argy bargy.

Has the forum turned a corner?  

Cheers Mike and Jezz  :thup:
		
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Were some posters barred from the discussion?
Several regulars notable by their absence.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Would you say that on average you gets what you pay for when it comes to green fees?  Or are there any courses that have shocked you in a good way regarding how good they really?
		
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a good question. In general you do get what you pay for but there are a few exceptions where we feel it's over priced (Wentworth West and Kingsbarns - both on the slide becuase of this) and more than a few where you get particularly good value...off the top of my head
Silloth
Royal St David's
Royal North Devon
Aberdovey
Liphook
Trevose
Sherwood Forest
St Enodoc
Portmarnock Links

NB a lot of these are what you;d call out of the way courses


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## Val (Dec 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			As for Machrihanish Dunes, it is a stirring course that was in our Top 100 but dropped out last time following problems created by the severe winter storms they'd had there. That doesn't mean it's gone forever, but the feedback from assessors this time round suggested there was still some further bedding in of reinstated areas required.
		
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It has improved since you visited on our outing a couple of years ago but my own feeling is the holes particularly down the coast line that did suffer badly that winter will suffer from weather every winter which is a shame because visually and from a golf test some of these holes are fantastic. I didn't get a chance to play the Dunes these year but I'm led to believe they are improving but still a bit short of being in the league of Machrihanish itself which to be fair isn't short of it's own problems.


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			yes four courses made way this year, Nefyn, Worlington and Newmarket, Killarney (Killeen) and Adare Mannor

the time before that we had a few drop put too - Mach Dunes for one
		
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And would they have been 96-100, so replaced by places moving into the top 100?

What about somewhere that was 60 say, would it be conceivable that a course could drop that far?


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			And would they have been 96-100, so replaced by places moving into the top 100?

What about somewhere that was 60 say, would it be conceivable that a course could drop that far?
		
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From Rob Smith
The Top 100 rankings are revised every two years. Such is the competition and the need to improve, that clubs that are just as good as they were two years before tend to drop a little. This is because they are overtaken by others that have upgraded or got themselves into tip-top condition. In addition, the oldest of our rankings, 10 years ago, did not have the benefit of such solid criteria, or time and effort from all those involved in the process. There has naturally, and rightly, been some revision to address the early imbalances. So yes, a Top 100 can drop into the Next 100, and a Next 100 can drop into the Third 100â€¦. no donâ€™t get us started !!

MH to add my bit...
Killarney was at 87 but others were indeed in the 90-100 bracket
as Rob said we know a lot more than we did at the start - when I inherited the ranking Dornoch was in the 50s! And, as they progress we feel we get it a little bit more 'right' each year so there is less volatility. It's my view other rankings have excessive volatility to try and stir talking points


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Excellent thread.:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2014)

Excellent read guys and answered every question I had in my head 

Glad to see that value for money is effecting courses

Surprised that you feel Ashridge is close though


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## Duckster (Dec 1, 2014)

Brilliant thread.  Really enjoyed this one.


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2014)

I enjoyed reading through that.


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			a good question. In general you do get what you pay for but there are a few exceptions where we feel it's over priced (Wentworth West and Kingsbarns - both on the slide becuase of this) and more than a few where you get particularly good value...off the top of my head
Silloth
Royal St David's
Royal North Devon
Aberdovey
Liphook
Trevose
Sherwood Forest
St Enodoc
Portmarnock Links

NB a lot of these are what you;d call out of the way courses
		
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I wouldn't describe St Enedoc (Church) as 'particularly good value' for the standard Visitor's rate for a round. But for either Twilight of a Day Ticket, it certainly is! 

I'm sure both Wentworth and Kingsbarns (to a lesser degree) set the price to moderate Visitor demand. And to be in same league as 'Top of the World' courses like Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Pine Valley, Torrey Pines etc.

Excellent thread and thanks for the time guys! :clap:


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I wouldn't describe St Enedoc (Church) as 'particularly good value'
		
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Mark Crossfield has just played St Enodoc and I have to say it doesn't look that special, rather cramped infact.  This could just be the effects of looking at it in 2d.  It does look quirky though


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I wouldn't describe St Enedoc (Church) as 'particularly good value' for the standard Visitor's rate for a round. But for either Twilight of a Day Ticket, it certainly is! 

Excellent thread and thanks for the time guys! :clap:
		
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 Â£75 a round in summer and Â£45 in winter is cracking value for a course the quality of St Enodoc.:thup:


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## Junior (Dec 1, 2014)

Great read :cheers:


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2014)

richart said:



			Â£75 a round in summer and Â£45 in winter is cracking value for a course the quality of St Enodoc.:thup:
		
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Burnham & Berrow, a few places 'better' is pretty much the same - so probably just missed from Mike's list. Hillside too! But certainly those ones are in amongst some quite/very expensive ones. 

A huge plus of the Church course, for me, is the powerful, but very pleasant aroma of the Camel Estuary!


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			From Rob Smith
The Top 100 rankings are revised every two years. Such is the competition and the need to improve, that clubs that are just as good as they were two years before tend to drop a little. This is because they are overtaken by others that have upgraded or got themselves into tip-top condition. In addition, the oldest of our rankings, 10 years ago, did not have the benefit of such solid criteria, or time and effort from all those involved in the process. There has naturally, and rightly, been some revision to address the early imbalances. So yes, a Top 100 can drop into the Next 100, and a Next 100 can drop into the Third 100â€¦. no donâ€™t get us started !!

MH to add my bit...
Killarney was at 87 but others were indeed in the 90-100 bracket
as Rob said we know a lot more than we did at the start - when I inherited the ranking Dornoch was in the 50s! And, as they progress we feel we get it a little bit more 'right' each year so there is less volatility. It's my view other rankings have excessive volatility to try and stir talking points
		
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That's very interesting Mike, as you mentioned Dornoch what had changed to make it go from 50 odd into the top 10?

I can appreciate a new course going in at a high ranking but almost 40 places seems a lot!


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## JezzE (Dec 1, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			That's very interesting Mike, as you mentioned Dornoch what had changed to make it go from 50 odd into the top 10?

I can appreciate a new course going in at a high ranking but almost 40 places seems a lot!
		
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I think what Mike is saying is that he inherited a set of rankings from before the panellist system was put in place in which Dornoch was way out of kilter, and that has been gradually remedied over the years, based on both continuing feedback from panellists and what we all know of the course from our visits over the years.


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2014)

JezzE said:



			I think what Mike is saying is that he inherited a set of rankings from before the panellist system was put in place in which Dornoch was way out of kilter, and that has been gradually remedied over the years, based on both continuing feedback from panellists and what we all know of the course from our visits over the years.
		
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Thanks, Jezz, that makes sense.


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## richart (Dec 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Burnham & Berrow, a few places 'better' is pretty much the same - so probably just missed from Mike's list. Hillside too! But certainly those ones are in amongst some quite/very expensive ones. 

A huge plus of the Church course, for me, is the powerful, but very pleasant aroma of the Camel Estuary!
		
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 South West courses tend to be great value, compared to the Surrey/ Berkshire courses I play.


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Thanks, Jezz, that makes sense.
		
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Jezz was being polite Patrick! The list he and I inherited was put together by some well intentioned but clueless people! There were a few other howellers like Notts (Hollinwell) at 99

We had to make some major changes and felt could only do that over the course of a couple of rankings. Broadly speaking we think we have it now where it's not 'right' because it can't be that but at least we can argue our corner on pretty much anything. 

Dornoch at 50odd still sends a shiver down my spine!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 1, 2014)

matt611 said:



			Mark Crossfield has just played St Enodoc and I have to say it doesn't look that special, rather cramped infact.  This could just be the effects of looking at it in 2d.  It does look quirky though
		
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I take it you haven't played St Enodoc Matt? Quirky....yes, but it is a brilliant test of golf. I play it every year in their open off the very back tees and it is an absolute brute. It is probably my favourite course in England and I strongly recommend that if you get the chance to play it then do so  :thup:


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			Jezz was being polite Patrick! The list he and I inherited was put together by some well intentioned but clueless people! There were a few other howellers like Notts (Hollinwell) at 99

We had to make some major changes and felt could only do that over the course of a couple of rankings. Broadly speaking we think we have it now where it's not 'right' because it can't be that but at least we can argue our corner on pretty much anything. 

Dornoch at 50odd still sends a shiver down my spine!
		
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They sound like great guys, after all  they had Nairn at 20 Odd


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## matt611 (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I take it you haven't played St Enodoc Matt? Quirky....yes, but it is a brilliant test of golf. I play it every year in their open off the very back tees and it is an absolute brute. It is probably my favourite course in England and I strongly recommend that if you get the chance to play it then do so  :thup:
		
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No never played it, if I'm ever down that way I would certainly give it a go as it seems to do well in all the rankings and is a very good price. As I said it is probably just viewing the course on a PC screen doesn't do it justice


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## stevek1969 (Dec 1, 2014)

Still can't believe that Scotscraig doesn't get a mention in the Top 200 in Britain. And that Portstewart Strand isn't in the top 100 .


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2014)

drive4show said:



*How refreshing to read an entire thread that was both informative and interesting without a single bit of argy bargy.*

Has the forum turned a corner?  

Cheers Mike and Jezz  :thup:
		
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That's rich coming from a Daily Mail reader.....




Doh. 

I would like to back up all others who have said what a great thread this was, really enjoyed it and great to have the interaction with the grande fromages.


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## JCW (Dec 1, 2014)

Very interesting thread , I have read it all . My home club Parkstone here in Poole Dorset has just made the Top 100 list at no.91 , Lots of work has gone into updating the course and all of which have been very good and even more work going on this winter to holes 2, 6, 7, 10 and also the teeing areas of 8 & 13 . The greens at Parkstone are better then any I have played this year and I include those at Hillside, Formby , stoneham and many others . Every hole at the club has been improved and so have the views as many trees have been removed . Only thing we can not really do is get more yardage , 2 hundred yards maybe but not a lot more .:thup::clap::clap:


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2014)

Fabulous thread and some really interesting pints from Jezz and Mike in particular. It's clear it'll always be an emotive subject and there are still a few in the top 100 I disagree with and I'd replace with some from the next 100 list but it's all an opinion, albeit a rationalised and well argued one from GM


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## SVB (Dec 1, 2014)

How many courses have you played to get this.  Would the 'full' ranking list be a top 250 / 300 / 500 / 1000??  Is this available even as a flat list?


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 1, 2014)

One of the threads of the year, and brilliant that a few of you guys engage with us on this one.:thup:

Mike, I represent a charity called "what to you do with your spare velour bags", can I send you a letter?

Like everyone on here I have my views on what is missing from the top 100 and what is too high in that list also. I'm glad that Royal St. Davids was mentioned, as I always felt that this was too high in the lists. It obviously scores highly for VFM but out of all the other courses I have played above it (44 upwards) such as Prestwick, Silloth,W Gailes, Moortown,W Saunton,Hunstanton, S&A,W Lancs and Bearwood. I would rate them all higher, with the only exception being Ladybank. 


I feel that although it is a very good course (I've played it 3 times, and all in cheap opens), I feel that the castle on the hill probably raises the course's appeal, somewhat. If 13th century English gunners weren't clearly inebriated, and a better shot, I feel it wouldn't get in the top 200.

So, the main question is - do you rank them just on the marks across all contributors, or is there a later discussion whereby someone says "I know x course comes out at 53, but would anyone agree that it's not as good as Y at 57 and Z at 58. If people then agree with that sentiment is it then re-jigged on the comparison suggestion. If all that makes sense - or is it the marks only?


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## SammmeBee (Dec 1, 2014)

JCW said:



			Very interesting thread , I have read it all . My home club Parkstone here in Poole Dorset has just made the Top 100 list at no.91 , Lots of work has gone into updating the course and all of which have been very good and even more work going on this winter to holes 2, 6, 7, 10 and also the teeing areas of 8 & 13 . The greens at Parkstone are better then any I have played this year and I include those at Hillside, Formby , stoneham and many others . Every hole at the club has been improved and so have the views as many trees have been removed . Only thing we can not really do is get more yardage , 2 hundred yards maybe but not a lot more .:thup::clap::clap:
		
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Best greenkeeper in the country......


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## PNWokingham (Dec 1, 2014)

Great thread and enjoyed the past hour reading it!


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## MikeH (Dec 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			One of the threads of the year, and brilliant that a few of you guys engage with us on this one.:thup:

Mike, I represent a charity called "what to you do with your spare velour bags", can I send you a letter?

Like everyone on here I have my views on what is missing from the top 100 and what is too high in that list also. I'm glad that Royal St. Davids was mentioned, as I always felt that this was too high in the lists. It obviously scores highly for VFM but out of all the other courses I have played above it (44 upwards) such as Prestwick, Silloth,W Gailes, Moortown,W Saunton,Hunstanton, S&A,W Lancs and Bearwood. I would rate them all higher, with the only exception being Ladybank. 


I feel that although it is a very good course (I've played it 3 times, and all in cheap opens), I feel that the castle on the hill probably raises the course's appeal, somewhat. If 13th century English gunners weren't clearly inebriated, and a better shot, I feel it wouldn't get in the top 200.

So, the main question is - do you rank them just on the marks across all contributors, or is there a later discussion whereby someone says "I know x course comes out at 53, but would anyone agree that it's not as good as Y at 57 and Z at 58. If people then agree with that sentiment is it then re-jigged on the comparison suggestion. If all that makes sense - or is it the marks only?
		
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lid, I'll send you all my arl velour bags. You can make one of your big banners for the kop out of them!

back to the real world - marks are just the base element we work off

as Rob sais in his intro feature in the mag...
"Although we look carefully at the scores, we also read each report carefully to look at supporting evidence and then use a combination to make sure that variations between assessors are ironed out.
Wonderful for one person may equate to 10 out of 15, while for another it means 13 out of 15. This moderation process, and regular contact with assessors, makes a subjective process as objective as it can be."

in the final phase of compiling the list it will invlove me Rob, Jezz and other staff arguing about course a vs course b
one of the big debates this year was should trump be above royal aberdeen
jezz rob and fergus all played both - Fergus voted for RA but Jezz and Rob for Trump so it got the nod


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			lid, I'll send you all my arl velour bags. You can make one of your big banners for the kop out of them!

*Thanks Mike, but I think Gary from Derry would nick them off me and make lots of pair of trousers.

We're still working out which decade his pair of cords are from.
*
back to the real world - marks are just the base element we work off

as Rob sais in his intro feature in the mag...
"Although we look carefully at the scores, we also read each report carefully to look at supporting evidence and then use a combination to make sure that variations between assessors are ironed out.
Wonderful for one person may equate to 10 out of 15, while for another it means 13 out of 15. This moderation process, and regular contact with assessors, makes a subjective process as objective as it can be."

in the final phase of compiling the list it will invlove me Rob, Jezz and other staff arguing about course a vs course b
one of the big debates this year was should trump be above royal aberdeen
jezz rob and fergus all played both - Fergus voted for RA but Jezz and Rob for Trump so it got the nod
		
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Sorry, missed that bit in the criteria.

Good, I think marks can only take it so far, as you say. The "wee demon" that is comparison, still needs to be done towards the end, as you say. 

As most of us mark out of 10, 5 years ago SandA would have been a 9/10 for me, but after playing the likes of Prestwick, Carnoustie, Turnberry etc it starts moving down to a 6. But then who wants to play a 6/10 course - everyone if it's SandA!!!!! It just goes to show how tough this whole process is.


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## Snelly (Dec 1, 2014)

Excellent thread and erudite musings on RCD vs Muirfield.  Nice work.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2014)

MikeH said:



			one of the big debates this year was should trump be above royal aberdeen
jezz rob and fergus all played both - Fergus voted for RA but Jezz and Rob for Trump so it got the nod
		
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Thats a big endorsement from Jezz as he told me the best course he had played was Royal Aberdeen, particularly the front 9. (I'm sure it was best he said but it maybe have been favourite now I think on it, maybe Jezz can clarify)


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			As most of us mark out of 10, 5 years ago SandA would have been a 9/10 for me, but after playing the likes of Prestwick, Carnoustie, Turnberry etc it starts moving down to a 6. But then who wants to play a 6/10 course - everyone if it's SandA!!!!! It just goes to show how tough this whole process is.
		
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without wishing to bang the drum I think this ability to benchmark is key - the more courses you have played the more effectively you can place one course above another. with out panel they've played a lot of courses so are well placed to make these judgements


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Excellent thread and erudite musings on RCD vs Muirfield.  Nice work. 

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its all about the lunch snelly


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			its all about the lunch snelly

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I think this is an interesting distinction between best course and best club. As someone from NI, I think RCD is the greatest course on the planet, although the club has not always been the most welcoming, although improving. Never played Muirfield but I have heard great things including the traditional lunch. Based on TV appearance, I don't think Muirfield can have enough vertical movement or attractive rugged appeal to beat RCD.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

Snelly said:



*Because it is about ranking the top 100 courses*.  Not about ranking the top 100 courses with a few caveats added to cater to the moans and whines of a few online class warriors who don't like being excluded. 

Or maybe they are judged on their welcome and don't score very highly??
		
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If its just about the courses then the ratings for welcome and food etc shouldnt be involved and should be all about the actual course 

So is it the top 100 courses or golf clubs ?

And its nothing to do with what "class" someone is or being excluded.


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

Val said:



			Thats a big endorsement from Jezz as he told me the best course he had played was Royal Aberdeen, particularly the front 9. (I'm sure it was best he said but it maybe have been favourite now I think on it, maybe Jezz can clarify)
		
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Can't remember exactly what I might have said, Val, but probably that Royal Aberdeen has the best nine holes of links golf anywhere in the country, and that it would be in my personal top 5 overall. I think it still would be despite Trump's arrival, with one of my other top 5 having to give way...


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## MadAdey (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			We initially put out a call to get involved in 2006 - we asked for golfers who had played a lot of courses, could commit to playing around 20 per 2-year assessing period and had a real interest in courses and golf course design to put themselves forward and include a golfing CV

We selected around 15 of which 2/3rds of the original panelists are still with us and their experience of seeing courses year on year to asses improvement or indeed drops in quality is invaluable as in a world of subjectivity having a benchmark to work from is crucial

I have put out one if not two calls to action to invite new applications panelists from forum members but surprisingly never had one application - even from the very opinionated types who youâ€™d think would be perfect for this!

We ask that those who put themselves forward have played at least 30 of the current top 100 (to enable them to benchmark), commit to playing at least 15 rounds on contender courses in the 2 year assessing window and then complete a sample assessment form for a course they have recently visited

Those who have read the issue of the mag with the rankings in it will see what goes into these forms but if you havenâ€™t then below is an example of a good one - this from one of our more recent recuits Tim Gallant - he is only 27years old but has already played close on 400 courses worldwide

Being brutally honest if you cant hit that level then you can't really add to the pool of assessors!

If you are selected then you pay all your expenses getting to and from courses and should expect to pay for all food and drinks on the day although you will often get a soup and sandwiches type. May assessors ask to take friends although they will always pay a green fee.

View attachment 13091

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Hey Mike, if you ever need someone this side of the pond to go and do any course reviews I would be happy to help out...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 2, 2014)

It would be interesting to see the movers and shakers if the ranking criteria was changed to solely the course layout, design and condition. In the buildup to our trip to Muirfield last year, everyone was talking about the lunch rather than the course   Compare that to somewhere like Carnoustie or TOC where there is no clubhouse as such and the experience is purely golf based.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			I speak purely for myself here, though I know at least one other panellist feels the same...

Of course, there's no doubt that RCD wins on the wow factor by a long way, but - and bearing in mind we're talking about trying to find reasons to separate what we are saying are the two best courses in the land - I personally feel it tails off a little midway through the back nine with that slightly *less exciting par 3 down into the far corner and the hole that follows that.*

Others will point to the number of blind shots, but it is really the above that does it for me.

Muirfield is less spectacular, no doubt about it, but someone the other day asked me to name my least favourite hole on the course, and I struggled to do it. It's just a solid test of golf from start to finish, with no tricks.
		
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Jezz

I hope you are not talking about the 14th and 15th. The 14th is a good par 3 which requires a solid mid iron, nice tough hole, but the 15th is a wonderful par 4 to a rising fairway which narrows and requires a long iron or timber to a testing green. That is a great hole. But on that back 9, expectations have been so raised by some wonderful holes that it would be impossible to keep the level up. 

The weakest holes at RCD are probably 17th (shortish par 4 with a pond in the fairway) and 18th, longish but not very exciting par 5. But by then, you are usually glad of the rest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

drive4show said:



			It would be interesting to see the movers and shakers if the ranking criteria was changed to solely the course layout, design and condition. In the buildup to our trip to Muirfield last year, everyone was talking about the lunch rather than the course   Compare that to somewhere like Carnoustie or TOC where there is no clubhouse as such and the experience is purely golf based.
		
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Yep - as i mentioned to Snelly - is it the Top 100 Courses or Golf clubs ? 

If its courses then surely welcome and food and clubhouse etc shouldnt really come into it ?


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep - as i mentioned to Snelly - is it the Top 100 Courses or Golf clubs ? 

If its courses then surely welcome and food and clubhouse etc shouldnt really come into it ?
		
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Here are the full criteria on which we assess...

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/courses/top-100-courses/top-100-criteria-60844


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Jezz

I hope you are not talking about the 14th and 15th. The 14th is a good par 3 which requires a solid mid iron, nice tough hole, but the 15th is a wonderful par 4 to a rising fairway which narrows and requires a long iron or timber to a testing green. That is a great hole. But on that back 9, expectations have been so raised by some wonderful holes that it would be impossible to keep the level up. 

The weakest holes at RCD are probably 17th (shortish par 4 with a pond in the fairway) and 18th, longish but not very exciting par 5. But by then, you are usually glad of the rest.
		
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Yes, I am talking about the 14th, a par 3 that seems to lose the links characteristics of the rest of the course. I also think 13 is probably a slightly unfair hole for all but the best of golfers.

17 is a little incongruous, but I don't mind 18 even though I chopped it up there in 7 or 8 last time I played!


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If its just about the courses then the ratings for welcome and food etc shouldnt be involved and should be all about the actual course 

So is it the top 100 courses or golf clubs ?

And its nothing to do with what "class" someone is or being excluded.
		
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as we have said many times with our rankings it's about the all round experience so factors like lunch, welcome, visitor facilities and sense of occassion do count. if these things dont matter to you when youre handing over a large chunk of money then you might as well go any play it on a simulator!

however... on course alone Muirfield would still win my vote though


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			as we have said many times with our rankings it's about the all round experience so factors like lunch, welcome, visitor facilities and sense of occassion do count. if these things dont matter to you when youre handing over a large chunk of money then you might as well go any play it on a simulator!

however... on course alone Muirfield would still win my vote though
		
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So is it that grey area between a course and a club ? 

So with Woburn as an example - the welcome , lunch etc will be the same markings for all three course then each course marked seperately ?

Or would the course occasions differ in regards say between the Dukes and the Marquess which do seem to have a different atmosphere


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So is it that grey area between a course and a club ? 

So with Woburn as an example - the welcome , lunch etc will be the same markings for all three course then each course marked seperately ?

Or would the course occasions differ in regards say between the Dukes and the Marquess which do seem to have a different atmosphere
		
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one of the things that has got The Dukes into the top 100 in 2012 (when we had Marquess and Duchess in in 2010) was the upgrade of the clubhouse facilities

they are ranked within the list as to what we believe to 1,2,3


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			one of the things that has got The Dukes into the top 100 in 2012 (when we had Marquess and Duchess in in 2010) was the upgrade of the clubhouse facilities

they are ranked within the list as to what we believe to 1,2,3
		
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Cheers for that 

Ah right that's quite interesting because if you talk to a lot of the members they believe the upgrade of the clubhouse has moved it towards a corporate club and less a members club and the atmosphere being poor ( bar closing at 7 when members are still there etc )

Must feel different for a visitor arriving 

Im guessing the new short game facility wasn't in place when the assessment was done


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## fundy (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cheers for that 

Ah right that's quite interesting because if you talk to a lot of the members they believe the upgrade of the clubhouse has moved it towards a corporate club and less a members club and the atmosphere being poor ( bar closing at 7 when members are still there etc )

*Must feel different for a visitor arriving* 

Im guessing the new short game facility wasn't in place when the assessment was done
		
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Cant say Id agree, feels very very corporate these days and not the most enjoyable of post round drinks these days imho


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 2, 2014)

fundy said:



			Cant say Id agree, feels very very corporate these days and not the most enjoyable of post round drinks these days imho
		
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I'd second that, nothing for me that particularly distinguished it from any number of other modern clubhouses.


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cheers for that 
Ah right that's quite interesting because if you talk to a lot of the members they believe the upgrade of the clubhouse has moved it towards a corporate club and less a members club and the atmosphere being poor ( bar closing at 7 when members are still there etc )
Must feel different for a visitor arriving 
Im guessing the new short game facility wasn't in place when the assessment was done
		
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I can see that from a members' perspective but it defintely made it a better experience for visitors - very polished and welcoming
new short game facility wil only help the case next time round


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## fundy (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			I can see that from a members' perspective *but it defintely made it a better experience for visitors - very polished and welcoming*
new short game facility wil only help the case next time round
		
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depends what you are looking for I guess, that or you get a very different welcome to the rest of us. Feels very clinical and almost aloof every time Im there, even if as a members guest


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## Val (Dec 2, 2014)

For me, I like to be welcomed as a member for the day and many courses do that unfortunately the larger the venue the harder it is for them to do, the Belfry being an example but they do as well as they can. I will say that Muirfield has that member for the day experience IMO, you never feel out of place in the clubhouse or on the course at all, great venue and the lunch, it has to be experienced. 

A round at Muirfield without lunch is a missed experience.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2014)

Val said:



			For me, I like to be welcomed as a member for the day and many courses do that unfortunately the larger the venue the harder it is for them to do, the Belfry being an example but they do as well as they can. I will say that Muirfield has that member for the day experience IMO, you never feel out of place in the clubhouse or on the course at all, great venue and the lunch, it has to be experienced. 

A round at Muirfield without lunch is a missed experience.
		
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Until this year i would have agreed with you Martin. We went a at the end of Oct and was served the smallest piece of roast beef you could imagine. when i questioned the extremely surly Chef she said there were other diners to come... which there weren't!!!

The other times we have been you are  given a nice couple of slices of Sirloin, not sure what this was but not worth the Â£25, but maybe that was because we were with a member the last time.


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Until this year i would have agreed with you Martin. We went a at the end of Oct and was served the smallest piece of roast beef you could imagine. when i questioned the extremely surly Chef she said there were other diners to come... which there weren't!!!

The other times we have been you are  given a nice couple of slices of Sirloin, not sure what this was but not worth the Â£25, but maybe that was because we were with a member the last time.
		
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worrying to hear! did you have the tempura vegetables and which pudding did you have

PS the member for a day notion that Val highlights is, in our view, absoloutely what clubs should strive towards delivering and then be recognised for


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			worrying to hear! did you have the tempura vegetables and which pudding did you have

PS the member for a day notion that Val highlights is, in our view, absoloutely what clubs should strive towards delivering and then be recognised for
		
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Mike it would be easier to tell you which pudding i didn't have

The roast beef thing was a real disappointment as the last 3 times its been excellent, two of those were with a member, and the staff in the dinning room were much friendlier those times.


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## gregbwfc (Dec 2, 2014)

Val said:



			For me, I like to be welcomed as a member for the day and many courses do that unfortunately the larger the venue the harder it is for them to do, the Belfry being an example but they do as well as they can. I will say that Muirfield has that member for the day experience IMO, you never feel out of place in the clubhouse or on the course at all, great venue and the lunch, it has to be experienced. 

A round at Muirfield without lunch is a missed experience.
		
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Was a special day that Val and the lunch topped it off great.
Sorry to read of Patrick's experience but they couldn't have given me more food.
I loosened my belt a notch when I walked into the dining room .
Will also say North Berwick the day before made us feel equally at home, really adds to the experience stuff like that.

Great thread this, thanks to Mike, Jezz and Rob for their input.
Always look forward to the top 100 edition - and the debate it sparks :thup:


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## IanG (Dec 2, 2014)

gregbwfc said:



			Will also say North Berwick the day before made us feel equally at home, really adds to the experience stuff like that.
		
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Nice to hear, a member-for-the-day feel is certainly what the club consciously sets out to achieve.


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## Snelly (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			its all about the lunch snelly

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Absolutely! 

For example, in my own personal golf course ranking system, the Berkshire (where I am playing tomorrow), is massively penalised because quite unbelievably, they serve a perfect rare rib of roast beef..................with bought in Yorkshire puddings?!?!?!?!?

Whoever makes this decision must be partially insane. I have rebuked the chef on this point on every occasion I have visited but to no avail.  They still persist with Aunt Bessies and it is borderline criminal.  How hard can it be to make a decent batter and use one of the spare ovens to knock up a few dozen puds?  Not very is the answer. 

In my list of top courses, this costs the Berkshire at least ten places.  

I think that the "Do you make your own Yorkshire puddings" question is without doubt a classic litmus test of a course's standing.  That along with, can members walk their dog when playing non-competition rounds?  And lastly, do the club provide decent towels for members and guests?  

If the answer to these is all a resounding yes then you can be 99% sure that you are at a proper golf club that understands the needs of it's members and visitors..  Some examples: Sunningdale, West Sussex, West Hill, Hankley Common, St Georges Hill and I could go on...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 2, 2014)

IanG said:



			Nice to hear, a member-for-the-day feel is certainly what the club consciously sets out to achieve.
		
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The Secretary took time out to come and have a chat with us at your place Ian, very welcoming man and really made us feel that the club wanted us to be there. Other clubs should take a leaf out of his book!!


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## matt71 (Dec 2, 2014)

mmmmm. great read this am! Do have to query the welcome of the club as a choice as looking at number 1 ranked course Muirfield if you want to play as a visitor you are not allowed out as two ball and in the mornings 4 ball only. afternoon 4 some (alternate shots)!

I am sorry but if you are paying Â£110 (winter) to Â£210 a round that in my opinion is not good deal and for the amateur golfer has put me off! On that subject I don't think I will ever get the chance to play most of the top courses due to the price which is a real shame!

However will carry on playing in and around the uk at good quality affordable courses that a not in the top 200 ( southerness comes to mind as one)


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## gregbwfc (Dec 2, 2014)

IanG said:



			Nice to hear, a member-for-the-day feel is certainly what the club consciously sets out to achieve.
		
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You've nailed it then Ian.
And our experience mirrors that of D4S's, even got walked over to the starter to be introduced.
Hope to be back some time.


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## Duckster (Dec 2, 2014)

matt71 said:



			mmmmm. great read this am! Do have to query the welcome of the club as a choice as looking at number 1 ranked course Muirfield if you want to play as a visitor you are not allowed out as two ball and in the mornings 4 ball only. afternoon 4 some (alternate shots)!

I am sorry but if you are paying Â£110 (winter) to Â£210 a round that in my opinion is not good deal and for the amateur golfer has put me off! On that subject I don't think I will ever get the chance to play most of the top courses due to the price which is a real shame!

However will carry on playing in and around the uk at good quality affordable courses that a not in the top 200 ( southerness comes to mind as one)
		
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Their club, their rules though and they don't have any shortage of takers for it.  You have to consider the mindset that Muirfield members have as well, their game of choice is foursomes all the time (I think it only changes in Tues and Thurs morn for visitors) and they like to think of a day there as being 2.5 hrs, 2.5 hrs, 2.5 hrs (round of golf, dinner, round of golf).  I've even heard one saying that Muirfield is the best dining club in the UK...... which also has a really nice golf course!

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to play there.  Never knock it till you've tried it and all that.

Also, pretty sure Southerness made the Next 100?


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## matt71 (Dec 2, 2014)

Cheers Duckster: Stand corrected did not see southerness on the list but yep there they are  maybe next year when my handicap keep falling will consider playing Muirfield with my Scottish friends (as a 4 ball) or my numbers come up on Saturday haha


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## IanG (Dec 2, 2014)

gregbwfc said:



			You've nailed it then Ian.
And our experience mirrors that of D4S's, even got walked over to the starter to be introduced.
Hope to be back some time.
		
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We're very lucky to have some remarkable front of house staff.


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## MikeH (Dec 2, 2014)

IanG said:



			We're very lucky to have some remarkable front of house staff.
		
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Ian you have one of the very best secretaries in the business in Chris Spencer - a top bloke. Mind you he took over from one of my other favourites John Douglass who is now at Liphook

a good sec/manager and house staff make a huge difference


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Yes, I am talking about the 14th, a par 3 that seems to lose the links characteristics of the rest of the course. I also think 13 is probably a slightly unfair hole for all but the best of golfers.

17 is a little incongruous, but I don't mind 18 even though I chopped it up there in 7 or 8 last time I played!
		
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I think the 13th at RCD is one of the greatest holes in golf!


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think the 13th at RCD is one of the greatest holes in golf!
		
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Great hole if you're a good player, but I'm not sure otherwise, especially if it's into the wind


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 2, 2014)

Val said:



			For me, I like to be welcomed as a member for the day and many courses do that unfortunately the larger the venue the harder it is for them to do, the Belfry being an example but they do as well as they can. I will say that Muirfield has that member for the day experience IMO, you never feel out of place in the clubhouse or on the course at all, great venue and the lunch, it has to be experienced. 

A round at Muirfield without lunch is a missed experience.
		
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gregbwfc said:



			Will also say North Berwick the day before made us feel equally at home, really adds to the experience stuff like that.
		
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Don't know if it still there, but when I visited North Berwick some years ago there was a sign by the clubhouse reminding visitors that their green fee made them a member for the day and as such they were entitled to use all the facilities of the clubhouse where the other members would make them welcome.  I have to say that they lived up to that for both myself & Mrs BiM who walked the course with us.  Cracking course & reception, glad to know that they are keeping up the standards.

Edit; looks like it is still there;

http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/welcome-to-visitors/


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## Smiffy (Dec 2, 2014)

richart said:



			Thanks Mike missed that one.

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You must have mistaken it for a green


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## Smiffy (Dec 2, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Until this year i would have agreed with you Martin. We went a at the end of Oct and was served the smallest piece of roast beef you could imagine. when i questioned the extremely surly Chef she said there were other diners to come... which there weren't!!!

The other times we have been you are  given a nice couple of slices of Sirloin, not sure what this was but not worth the Â£25, but maybe that was because we were with a member the last time.
		
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Try Lydd. You get a full english breakfast and 18 holes for Â£14.00.


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 2, 2014)

Val said:



			For me, I like to be welcomed as a member for the day and many courses do that unfortunately the larger the venue the harder it is for them to do, the Belfry being an example but they do as well as they can. I will say that Muirfield has that member for the day experience IMO, you never feel out of place in the clubhouse or on the course at all, great venue and the lunch, it has to be experienced. 

A round at Muirfield without lunch is a missed experience.
		
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I had a cracking welcome at Ganton on the two occasions I've played it, couldn't do enough for me.

However, a few people have mentioned less than satisfactory welcomes. Just shows.


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## Junior (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			its all about the lunch snelly

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Mike . . . I disagree.   It's about the breakfast and the lunch.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

lue in Munich;1190441 said:
			
		


			Don't know if it still there, but when I visited North Berwick some years ago there was a sign by the clubhouse reminding visitors that their green fee made them a member for the day and as such they were entitled to use all the facilities of the clubhouse where the other members would make them welcome.  I have to say that they lived up to that for both myself & Mrs BiM who walked the course with us.  Cracking course & reception, glad to know that they are keeping up the standards.

Edit; looks like it is still there;

http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/welcome-to-visitors/

Click to expand...


We had the misfortune to wander into the clubhouse at North Berwick thinking we would have a coffee. We were not playing the course, cheaper options on the trip at Gullane, Archer field and Dunbar.
It was made clear at the door that as we were not playing the course we were not allowed in.
No wish to play there if that is the attitude of the club.
I am a member of a top 100 club and the welcome you get there is like chaulk and chess compared to North Berwick.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2014)

Smiffy said:



			Try Lydd. You get a full english breakfast and 18 holes for Â£14.00.
		
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Still Â£13.95 too much. Wasn't even that impressed by the brekkie


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## NWJocko (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			We had the misfortune to wander into the clubhouse at North Berwick thinking we would have a coffee. We were not playing the course, cheaper options on the trip at Gullane, Archer field and Dunbar.
It was made clear at the door that as we were not playing the course we were not allowed in.
No wish to play there if that is the attitude of the club.
I am a member of a top 100 club and the welcome you get there is like chaulk and chess compared to North Berwick.
		
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Can't comment on NB as years since I've played it but Silloth, the welcome and the food are absolutely tremendous :thup:

I love the whole place at Silloth, will definitely be up there for a game next year.

Whole thread has been a really good read


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2014)

JezzE said:



			Great hole if you're a good player, but I'm not sure otherwise, especially if it's into the wind
		
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http://www.royalcountydown.org/championship-links-hole13.aspx

It is a classic links par 4. Into the wind, maybe a 4 and a half or 5. The problem for a lot of players is that they expect to hit the green, even when faced with a blind second of over 200 yards over the hump on the right. The wise player knows that knocking one over that, short of the green, is just fine and they can try for a chip and putt par.

I have played it quite a few times and have hit everything from a 9 iron to timber into it, and have had a range of scores from birdie to blob. I used to be a member at Silloth and I think it has a number of similar, possibly more difficult, holes.


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## IanG (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			We had the misfortune to wander into the clubhouse at North Berwick thinking we would have a coffee. We were not playing the course, cheaper options on the trip at Gullane, Archer field and Dunbar.
It was made clear at the door that as we were not playing the course we were not allowed in.
No wish to play there if that is the attitude of the club.
I am a member of a top 100 club and the welcome you get there is like chaulk and chess compared to North Berwick.
		
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If you were not spoken to politely and respectfully then that is a bad reflection on the club and a disappointment. 

Whether private members clubs located in the centre of a touristy town should open their doors to the public for coffee is a different debate (and maybe a different thread). For what it is worth I know for sure that non-playing companions of paying visitors are welcome in the clubhouse.


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## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

We were invited into the Kingsbarns clubhouse for a coffee and bun although we were not playing. We had jeans on as we were just having a look round before we flew home, but the manager told us not to worry. Incredibly friendly, just a shame the green fee of Â£200 odd will always put me off playing there.

Another very friendly club was St Andrews Castle. In fact everyone from the starter, halfway hut lady to the manager, waitresses could not have been more friendly. For some reason i was surprised but having played a few Scottish courses now, it seems to be the norm. Same treatment at Carnoustie, although they did laugh at us playing in the driving rain and wind. We did have the course to ourselves though. The lady in the Pro shop was also the starter, and she insisted on coming out to start us. Just makes your day that bit better when you are treated so well.:thup:


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## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

Ethan said:



http://www.royalcountydown.org/championship-links-hole13.aspx

It is a classic links par 4. Into the wind, maybe a 4 and a half or 5. The problem for a lot of players is that they expect to hit the green, even when faced with a blind second of over 200 yards over the hump on the right. The wise player knows that knocking one over that, short of the green, is just fine and they can try for a chip and putt par.

I have played it quite a few times and have hit everything from a 9 iron to timber into it, and have had a range of scores from birdie to blob. I used to be a member at Silloth and I think it has a number of similar, possibly more difficult, holes.
		
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Playing the course next April, and looking forward to be able to enter into teh debate.

Interesting point about a hole being great for a good golfer Jezz, and not for others of less ability. Surely that must make assessing a course even harder ? Carnoustie has some great tough holes, but I never thought they should be judged as too difficult for the average golfer.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

IanG said:



			If you were not spoken to politely and respectfully then that is a bad reflection on the club and a disappointment. 

Whether private members clubs located in the centre of a touristy town should open their doors to the public for coffee is a different debate (and maybe a different thread). For what it is worth I know for sure that non-playing companions of paying visitors are welcome in the clubhouse.
		
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The chap on the door was polite enough. He did say however that the members inside would take issue to us being there.
It was a cold April afternoon so the town wasn't exactly rammed with tourists!


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## IanG (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			The chap on the door was polite enough. He did say however that the members inside would take issue to us being there.
It was a cold April afternoon so the town wasn't exactly rammed with tourists!
		
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Just enforcing club policy I think - let me know if your coming by again and, dairies permitting, I'll try and change your mind while we play the course


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Can't comment on NB as years since I've played it but Silloth, the welcome and the food are absolutely tremendous :thup:

I love the whole place at Silloth, will definitely be up there for a game next year.

Whole thread has been a really good read
		
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Give me a shout and if I'm free I'll sign you on.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

IanG said:



			Just enforcing club policy I think - let me know if your coming by again and, dairies permitting, I'll try and change your mind while we play the course 

Click to expand...

Very kind of you, it does look like a proper golf course.


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## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			Give me a shout and if I'm free I'll sign you on.
		
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 My cousin is a member at Carlisle, and I have played there a few times. Amazing to see all the red squirrels. He told me all the posh people play at Silloth.


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			We had the misfortune to wander into the clubhouse at North Berwick thinking we would have a coffee. We were not playing the course, cheaper options on the trip at Gullane, Archer field and Dunbar.
It was made clear at the door that as we were not playing the course we were not allowed in.
No wish to play there if that is the attitude of the club.
I am a member of a top 100 club and the welcome you get there is like chaulk and chess compared to North Berwick.
		
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I don't think they would be alone in not serving food and drink to those not playing the course...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

Ethan said:



http://www.royalcountydown.org/championship-links-hole13.aspx

It is a classic links par 4. Into the wind, maybe a 4 and a half or 5. The problem for a lot of players is that they expect to hit the green, even when faced with a blind second of over 200 yards over the hump on the right. The wise player knows that knocking one over that, short of the green, is just fine and they can try for a chip and putt par.

I have played it quite a few times and have hit everything from a 9 iron to timber into it, and have had a range of scores from birdie to blob. I used to be a member at Silloth and I think it has a number of similar, possibly more difficult, holes.
		
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I'm playing there next June - can't wait


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## JezzE (Dec 2, 2014)

Ethan said:



http://www.royalcountydown.org/championship-links-hole13.aspx

It is a classic links par 4. Into the wind, maybe a 4 and a half or 5. The problem for a lot of players is that they expect to hit the green, even when faced with a blind second of over 200 yards over the hump on the right.
		
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You must have seen me trying to play it last time I was there!


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## NWJocko (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:



			Give me a shout and if I'm free I'll sign you on.
		
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Cheers :thup:

Lucky boy being a member there, I love playing the course


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## Val (Dec 2, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Cheers :thup:

Lucky boy being a member there, I love playing the course
		
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I agree, one of my favourites.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

richart said:



			My cousin is a member at Carlisle, and I have played there a few times. Amazing to see all the red squirrels. He told me all the posh people play at Silloth.

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The only posh people I have seen are the visitors


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## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

saving_par said:





The only posh people I have seen are the visitors 

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 To be honest I think posh was only a relative term. (excuse the pun) I did have a relative that was Lady Mayor of Workington. Now she did think she was posh.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 2, 2014)

richart said:



			To be honest I think posh was only a relative term. (excuse the pun) I did have a relative that was Lady Mayor of Workington. Now she did think she was posh.

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Haha I'm from Workington, I probably know her. 
its one of those places!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			I can see that from a members' perspective but it defintely made it a better experience for visitors - very polished and welcoming
new short game facility wil only help the case next time round
		
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Did you feel it was more "professional and smart" as opposed to warm and making you feel at home as welcome ( if you see what I mean )

One of the things heard some say is the club seem to be doing a lot to welcome the corporate visitors etc but sort of ignoring the members.

When you go to the places do they know who the assessor is or is it a "mystery shopper" type visit


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2014)

MikeH said:



			I can see that from a members' perspective but it defintely made it a better experience for visitors - very polished and welcoming
new short game facility wil only help the case next time round
		
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Whole experience was a bit 'off' for me. Neither properly clubby - bar closure, stand-off-ness etc - nor properly 'corporate' (whatever that really is). There was something just a little bit cold and grey about the 'clubhouse' (apart from the friendly stewards) that actually rather matched the day - frost delayed. Courses (Marquess an Dukes) were great though, which was the most important thing for me.


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## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

I played with an ex member in an Open at Woburn. He said he left because he struggled to get a game, and thought there was no atmosphere in the clubhouse. 

I always find it a bit corporate. Reminds me of Foxhills, Old Thorns etc. Nothing wrong if you just want a round and a quick pint, but nothing to make me want to stay any longer. Cracking courses, but must admit I want something a bit more sociable from a members club.

I could have joined three other clubs closer to where I live, higher ranked courses, but just didn't think they were as friendly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

richart said:



			I played with an ex member in an Open at Woburn. He said he left because he struggled to get a game, and thought there was no atmosphere in the clubhouse. 

*I always find it a bit corporate. Reminds me of Foxhills, Old Thorns etc. Nothing wrong if you just want a round and a quick pint, but nothing to make me want to stay any longer. Cracking courses, but must admit I want something a bit more sociable from a members club.*

I could have joined three other clubs closer to where I live, higher ranked courses, but just didn't think they were as friendly.
		
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Spot on in regards Woburn Rich :thup:

A decent number have left over the years looking for a more "member experience"


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## MikeH (Dec 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you feel it was more "professional and smart" as opposed to warm and making you feel at home as welcome ( if you see what I mean )

One of the things heard some say is the club seem to be doing a lot to welcome the corporate visitors etc but sort of ignoring the members.

When you go to the places do they know who the assessor is or is it a "mystery shopper" type visit
		
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I have never felt Woburn is a clubby club as it were. Yes definitely more professional and smart but also a good welcome from the staff form front desk to starters
some places will know an assesor is coming but as we said lots of visits to contender courses are made as part of a club matches, annual tours etc so the clubs very unlikley to know that they have a GM assesor on the premises!
What needs to be remembered is our rankings are 100% from the perspective of the visiting golfer, not member
would be interesting to have a list of the best clubs/courses to be a member of...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 3, 2014)

MikeH said:



			I have never felt Woburn is a clubby club as it were. Yes definitely more professional and smart but also a good welcome from the staff form front desk to starters
some places will know an assesor is coming but as we said lots of visits to contender courses are made as part of a club matches, annual tours etc so the clubs very unlikley to know that they have a GM assesor on the premises!
What needs to be remembered is our rankings are 100% from the perspective of the visiting golfer, not member
would be interesting to have a list of the best clubs/courses to be a member of...
		
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That would be an interesting list and wonder how much of a difference some places would be - but I guess would be hard to judge 

One final question which has prob been asked 

How long is the list of contender courses ? Is it the top 200 from previous years for exampl ?


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## MikeH (Dec 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One final question which has prob been asked 
How long is the list of contender courses ? Is it the top 200 from previous years for exampl ?
		
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posts #45 and #46 cover all this


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## pokerjoke (Dec 3, 2014)

I do envy all you golfers that have played the top top 25 golf courses.

I have only played courses in or below the top 30.

I suppose when you get to the top courses it becomes the whole experience of the day,
maybe even staying in the hotel and eating etc not just playing the course.


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## mikepops (Dec 3, 2014)

JezzE said:



			I don't think they would be alone in not serving food and drink to those not playing the course...
		
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There can be an issue with licensing depending on the set up of the club, though of course that only applies to booze. No real excuse for not allowing someone in for a coffee who is there to check out the course though.


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## MikeH (Dec 3, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			I do envy all you golfers that have played the top top 25 golf courses.

I have only played courses in or below the top 30.

I suppose when you get to the top courses it becomes the whole experience of the day,
maybe even staying in the hotel and eating etc not just playing the course.
		
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for top 100 courses we dont include any hotel elements - course and clubhouse only


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## Val (Dec 3, 2014)

MikeH said:



			would be interesting to have a list of the best clubs/courses to be a member of...
		
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It certainly would, unfortunately it would probably be impossible to do. Potentially the only way would be to have assessors all over the country playing as member guests frequently with other members which to be fair is probably something the members of the forum do informally anyway all over the country.


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