# I Know it is Tradition but it is Still Annoying



## GB72 (Nov 19, 2011)

It was pretty cold this morning and there was a fair queue on the first tee. I was with 5 others teeing off as two 3 balls. We had been standing around for half an hour or more waiting our turn and were just about to walk on to the first tee when the captain walks up in a mixed four ball. 'Sorry gents, we have time constraints today in our group so we are going to tee off next, we will try not to hold you up on the way round'. Now do not get me wrong, our captain is a decent chap but he has walked up, used his privelege to play a larger group ahead of our 3 balls and a number of smaller groups behind us who have all been waiting in the cold for some time in a mixed 4 ball (which is the slowest type of group on our course due to the position of some of the ladies tees) and also basically informed that we are not going to be playing through them either. 

Now I know that it is a long held tradition that the captain can jump the queue (though I have never seen it applied before) and I am a person who likes to uphold tradition and I know he had time issues (as did 2 members of our group who are sports teachers who had to be at school rugby matches in the afternoon but that was brished aside when mentioned) but it still really annoyed me. 

I am ready to take the flak from those who say that the captain works hard for the club and deserves some traditional priveleges but that does not make it any less frustrating when you have been out in the cold for half an our to have someone come out of the warm club house and jump to the front of the queue.


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## Bobirdie (Nov 19, 2011)

it a pain i know,but if you make an issue of it you will be largley out numbered,by all the ppl who suck up the captains ass lol


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## GB72 (Nov 19, 2011)

I have no intention of making an issue of it as the captain is fully within his rights to do what he did and could do it every week if the wanted. Just needed to have a bit of a vent as it just left a bitter taste in my mouth.


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## Bobirdie (Nov 19, 2011)

i dont blame you


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## stevek1969 (Nov 19, 2011)

He's only the Captain not the bloody Lord Mayor he get told where to go if he tried that nonsense with us,thats the thing about golf clubs at times where these guys think they can do what they want,they pay there fee's the same as us so we should have the same rights


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## rosecott (Nov 19, 2011)

A tee booking system needed?


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## connor (Nov 19, 2011)

i never heard of this rule/tradition... hmmmm seems a bit dated i would also be annoyed if i had waited like your self in the cold for so long.  Do you not have specific tee time slots at your club?

the other week a group of 20+ arrived early and tee'd off but was told soon as me and me dad arrived for our slot they had to let us go as they was all meant to be after us.  Much to there credit they did and also kept inviting us through but we was happy to play behind them as was in no rush.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 19, 2011)

I have to say Captains at our place would get pretty short shrift if they tried that at my place. I'm all for honouring and respecting the position but I'm glad we don't have such a daft rule. What's to stop him rocking up halfway through the monthly medal because he can't be bothered to wait for everyone to tee off.


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## davek (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree why should he jump in, tee booking system required!!


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## GB72 (Nov 19, 2011)

rosecott said:



			A tee booking system needed?
		
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I know of another club in the area that has a tee booking system but the captain retains the right to tee off straight away.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 19, 2011)

i know you say he is a decent bloke , but surely a decent bloke would have walked up by himself , explained his situation & asked would it be ok to play next , he may be captain but manners & etiquette cost nothing , if he is as sound as you say nobody would have  minded & he would have got the same result without all that "im the captain" craic .. as for the captain doing alot of work & stuff he could have not accepted his nomination for captainsy , its not forced on him , proper people in charge set good example all around the course & in the clubhouse , we are blessed our captain is one of the most decent guys ever & would never do that whether he was allowed to or not ..


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## Crow (Nov 19, 2011)

Taking his privileges too far in my opinion, as blade says, a polite request was what was needed.

At our place the Captain has privilege on tee booking and can book before the booking becomes open to everybody else, which is fine in my view.


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## Wayman (Nov 19, 2011)

i know its a rule at my club but never seen a captain do it 
although when i was a younger junior people would just walk up on tee and say "your a junior you have no standing on 1st and 10th" so basically telling me im not getting off next.
havnt had a problem with that for a few year now after a little arguement kicked off


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## sweatysock41 (Nov 19, 2011)

It's also in our club rules - the captain has privilege on the course but most of the time they don't even bother.  Usually its a case of carry on guys I'm not in a rush.


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2011)

The Captain has the right at our Club and certainly many have used it without any issues. It goes with the position and we all know and respect the Cpatains right.

This years Captain is a total pr**k but luckily he plays on a Saturday genarally and I play on a Sunday. I recently had a big row with him but if he walked to the tee as I was next group to go we would still invite him to play - it's tradition and its what sets golf apart.


Chris


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## stef92 (Nov 20, 2011)

I played in St Andrews, in March, with a member of the R&A, and although they have courtesy of the New Course, (they did build the thing!) we still waited in the cold and rain just like everyone else.

Traditions can still exist, and some are excellent, but some are just plain outdated!

I personally could never just walk up and play in front of anyoneâ€¦ usually because of 1st tee nerves!


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## thecraw (Nov 20, 2011)

Oi, Mr Captain, jog on!

That would have been my response. Couldn't give a flying duck who he is. I pay the same fees as him, just because he's a crawling ass licker who wants a bit of an ego trip by getting onto committee and ultimately captain is no concern of mine.

Wait your turn.


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## Basher (Nov 20, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			surely a decent bloke would have walked up by himself , explained his situation & asked would it be ok to play next , he may be captain but manners & etiquette cost nothing
		
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Amen to that, bang on the spot Blade.

I can't think of anyone who would refuse a polite request from the Captain. Using the "Do you know who I am" tactic just stinks of snobbery and worthy of a respectless captaincy for the knob!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2011)

You join a club and accept the rules.   In my club the rules say that the Captain has priority on the first tee, that's it.  If I, you or anyone dont like it then either get over it or get out, too many people seem to have lost respect for the traditions of the game.  

If you want to play golf in a club that operates a system where those that are prepared to put in the work to create a nice environment for you to enjoy then show some respect or try doing it yourself.  But dont just insult the people that do.


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## thecraw (Nov 20, 2011)

SocketRocket said:



			You join a club and accept the rules.   In my club the rules say that the Captain has priority on the first tee, that's it.  If I, you or anyone dont like it then either get over it or get out, too many people seem to have lost respect for the traditions of the game.  

If you want to play golf in a club that operates a system where those that are prepared to put in the work to create a nice environment for you to enjoy then show some respect or try doing it yourself.  But dont just insult the people that do.
		
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So you bring up the subject, stating you found it frustrating and annoying so you clearly don't agree with what happened to you, why else pubilcise your frustrations on a public forum? . I think you are the one who's lost sight of what is "tradition and respectful" and are confusing it with an out dated pathetic privilege which actually shows a complete disregard and lack of respect to the paying members. The same members who probably put your captain in office.


Taditions of the game have nothing to do with your golf club making up a (my opinion) snooty nosed local rule in their clubs constitution giving the captain priority on the first tee. Pathetic!


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## DCB (Nov 20, 2011)

Never heard of the likes before. We certainly seem to play a different game up here.


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## chris661 (Nov 20, 2011)

thecraw; said:
			
		


			I pay the same fees as him
		
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Really? Do they not get the year of vice and captain for nowt.


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2011)

What an outdated load of Bolux....!
If you have time constraints there's 2 options.

Go out earlier and book the bloody thing or

Don't go out at all.
If the Captain at any club I was a member at did that then I wouldn't want to be a member of that club.

A polite request would almost certainly be greeted with a positive outcome but to effectively barge in and jump the queue just ain't right.


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## Dellboy (Nov 20, 2011)

Happen to me last month, just two of us waiting to tee off ( we had a booked tee time ) when the club captain turned up with 3 others.

Said very much the same as the OP here, "sorry chaps but got to rush ahead as the nights are closing in we will be tight getting a full 18 in"

Must say 2 of his playing partners did look a big sheepish, one even saying "don't worry we will be waving you through by the 5th "

Thankfully we got through them on the 7th, after 3 of the 4 ball hit into the woods, but wasn't waved through by the captain but the young chap who spoke on the first tee, all we got from the captain was a filthy look, and to make matters worse they all walked in after the 9th.

Dellboy

P.S Just like to say this was not my home course but one just down the road from me.


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## MashieNiblick (Nov 20, 2011)

Dellboy said:



			Happen to me last month, just two of us waiting to tee off ( we had a booked tee time ) when the club captain turned up with 3 others.

Said very much the same as the OP here, "sorry chaps but got to rush ahead as the nights are closing in we will be tight getting a full 18 in"

Must say 2 of his playing partners did look a big sheepish, one even saying "don't worry we will be waving you through by the 5th "

Thankfully we got through them on the 7th, after 3 of the 4 ball hit into the woods, but wasn't waved through by the captain but the young chap who spoke on the first tee, all we got from the captain was a filthy look, and to make matters worse they all walked in after the 9th.

Dellboy

P.S Just like to say this was not my home course but one just down the road from me.
		
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Why on earth did he want to go ahead of you? You won't hold him up, quite the opposite as was proved. Just an ego trip I guess. They do it because they can. No brain at all some of them.


(Need "shakes head" smiley)


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## Whee (Nov 20, 2011)

Dellboy said:



			P.S Just like to say this was not my home course but one just down the road from me.
		
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Name and shame the course pal, for those of us from your neck of the woods.


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## welshjim22 (Nov 20, 2011)

Would not be impressed if that had been me and certainly would have made my displeasure known.  Although politely, well to start with.  If he doesn't want to be captain without such stupid perks he shouldn't be captain.  It's is old fashioned traditions that hold the sport back.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 20, 2011)

No idea if that's a rule at our place but as Homer said, I'm pretty sure he'd get a frosty reception if he did it. TBH if I was captain, not that I ever will be or have any desire to be I hasten to add, I wouldn't exercise the right even if I had it. As has been said before, if you can't get up earlier and you need to get home, don't play. I'm guessing as captain he spends most of his spare time at the club anyway and has plenty of opportunities to play, probably a lot more opportunities than those on the tee on Saturday morning waiting to play the only round of the week so captain or not, he needs to have a little think about what's right and decent in modern society. Times have changed, golf clubs have changed and if you ask me, stuff like this isn't acceptable.


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## RobbOnTheRock (Nov 20, 2011)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No idea if that's a rule at our place but as Homer said, I'm pretty sure he'd get a frosty reception if he did it. TBH if I was captain, not that I ever will be or have any desire to be I hasten to add, I wouldn't exercise the right even if I had it. As has been said before, if you can't get up earlier and you need to get home, don't play. I'm guessing as captain he spends most of his spare time at the club anyway and has plenty of opportunities to play, probably a lot more opportunities than those on the tee on Saturday morning waiting to play the only round of the week so captain or not, he needs to have a little think about what's right and decent in modern society. Times have changed, golf clubs have changed and if you ask me, stuff like this isn't acceptable.
		
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It speaks volumes about the kind of person he is, whether he has right to do so or not, to me is immaterial.


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## ivan (Nov 20, 2011)

thought the idea of being Captain was to serve the club, not for the club to serve you.  or am i being niave?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2011)

thecraw said:



			So you bring up the subject, stating you found it frustrating and annoying so you clearly don't agree with what happened to you, why else pubilcise your frustrations on a public forum? . I think you are the one who's lost sight of what is "tradition and respectful" and are confusing it with an out dated pathetic privilege which actually shows a complete disregard and lack of respect to the paying members. The same members who probably put your captain in office.


Taditions of the game have nothing to do with your golf club making up a (my opinion) snooty nosed local rule in their clubs constitution giving the captain priority on the first tee. Pathetic!
		
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I never brought up the subject, where did you get that from?   My club belongs to the membership and the members make up the rules, you agree to them when joining.   If you dont like the way the club operates then actively participate and introduce changes, or put up with what your lack of commitment allows.

I have an opinion on this and have stated it.  If you disagree then thats also your perogative, even if it is pathetic (to use your terminology)


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2011)

Ours is only a small members section within a local muni course but both current and ex captain are sound chaps, if they need to be away early after our Sunday roll up (9am start) they arrive at 8am sharp, if their not worried about a finishing time the rock up at 8:50. As a mark of respect captains are always offered first tee slot and always decline saying its unfair to those who got their at 8am.

Like others im all for tradition, and respect the captain and their position, just seems your captain what's it a bit one way?


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

This thread goes to show how tradition and values have changed over the years. Ours is a traditional club and it's not that the Captain would march up and demand to take precedence on the tee. The players who were next to go would honour what has always been traditional, and invite the Captain to go next should he wish to do so. Some do and some don't take up the offer. 

Many people here seem to have an inbuilt anti authority attitude but they forget what the Captain does for them during the year in office. Our current Captain is , to me, a prize ****** , but for the members he runs the Golf Committee, organises most of the mens matches, turns up at loads of functions and gives speeches at the drop of a hat. He runs a charity during the year and, this year, gave Â£5k + to the hospice. He represents the Club at all manner of events, ones we would all like to do to the most mundane ones.  He gets involved with sorting out all manner of problems for the Club with players, suppliers, staff etc etc and loads more of other jobs.

What do they get for their trouble - at our place ... one years free subs (worth Â£1000) but they Captains job cost one Captain (he told me) about Â£3k during his year. The pleasure and the pain that goes with the job and the privilige on the tee if he cares to!

I wouldn't do the job if you picked me up in a gold limo on a Sunday!! and I especially wouldn't do it for people who would moan about an odd privilige that is traditional at most member clubs 


Chris


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2011)

To be fair, he also gets free golf at most golf courses for the year.


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			This thread goes to show how tradition and values have changed over the years. Ours is a traditional club and it's not that the Captain would march up and demand to take precedence on the tee. The players who were next to go would honour what has always been traditional, and invite the Captain to go next should he wish to do so. Some do and some don't take up the offer. 

Many people here seem to have an inbuilt anti authority attitude but they forget what the Captain does for them during the year in office. Our current Captain is , to me, a prize ****** , but for the members he runs the Golf Committee, organises most of the mens matches, turns up at loads of functions and gives speeches at the drop of a hat. He runs a charity during the year and, this year, gave Â£5k + to the hospice. He represents the Club at all manner of events, ones we would all like to do to the most mundane ones.  He gets involved with sorting out all manner of problems for the Club with players, suppliers, staff etc etc and loads more of other jobs.

What do they get for their trouble - at our place ... one years free subs (worth Â£1000) but they Captains job cost one Captain (he told me) about Â£3k during his year. The pleasure and the pain that goes with the job and the privilige on the tee if he cares to!

I wouldn't do the job if you picked me up in a gold limo on a Sunday!! and I especially wouldn't do it for people who would moan about an odd privilige that is traditional at most member clubs 


Chris
		
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Pretty much sums up my thoughts too. We have no tee booking, captain has priority on the course. Only once in the 4 years or so that I've been a ember have I been queueing in a roll up one morning when the captain has turned up with his 4 ball and walked straight onto the tee. It's the club rule/ tradition,  don't see an issue with it, meant I had to wait another 5 minutes or so......

I know that the captain puts a lot of time an effort into being around for all the club matches, raising money for charity and generally helping oil the club along. If he gets priority on the tee for that, good luck to him, he generally earns it.


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## thecraw (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			This thread goes to show how tradition and values have changed over the years. Ours is a traditional club and it's not that the Captain would march up and demand to take precedence on the tee. The players who were next to go would honour what has always been traditional, and invite the Captain to go next should he wish to do so. Some do and some don't take up the offer. 

Many people here seem to have an inbuilt anti authority attitude but they forget what the Captain does for them during the year in office. Our current Captain is , to me, a prize ****** , but for the members he runs the Golf Committee, organises most of the mens matches, turns up at loads of functions and gives speeches at the drop of a hat. He runs a charity during the year and, this year, gave Â£5k + to the hospice. He represents the Club at all manner of events, ones we would all like to do to the most mundane ones.  He gets involved with sorting out all manner of problems for the Club with players, suppliers, staff etc etc and loads more of other jobs.

What do they get for their trouble - at our place ... one years free subs (worth Â£1000) but they Captains job cost one Captain (he told me) about Â£3k during his year. The pleasure and the pain that goes with the job and the privilige on the tee if he cares to!

I wouldn't do the job if you picked me up in a gold limo on a Sunday!! and I especially wouldn't do it for people who would moan about an odd privilige that is traditional at most member clubs 


Chris
		
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Captain DOES NOT have to take up the role, he/she can pass up on the invite when they are asked to become the vice captain.

I'm not against the idea of any captain and I am no belittling their role but privilege over me on the tee when I'm an equal member. Not a chance will they be doing that to me.  Traditions of the game I have no problem in upholding. A tie walks up to me when I'm about to tee off and says, we need to go back up the 19th I'll step aside.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Captain DOES NOT have to take up the role, he/she can pass up on the invite when they are asked to become the vice captain.

I'm not against the idea of any captain and I am no belittling their role but privilege over me on the tee when I'm an equal member. Not a chance will they be doing that to me. Traditions of the game I have no problem in upholding. A tie walks up to me when I'm about to tee off and says, we need to go back up the 19th I'll step aside.
		
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Trouble is Craw, if everyone shared your view, nobody would take on the role and I would take the view that it does belittle the captains role. So the Captain can do loads of work all the year that benefits you, and you would refuse to honour the tradition (or maybe, the rules) at your club because the Captain is no more important than you. I accept that we are all the same but sometimes we all acknowledge that for what someone gives they deserve some sort of privilege 

Do you feel the same when you play in a match for your club and the Captains table get its dinner first ...... because its traditional?  Would you say that he should refuse the captaincy if he wasn't happy to be served last?



Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 21, 2011)

Bottom line is these guys DECIDE to give their time to the running of the golf club, no one forces them to go onto the committee/board. 

Why does he/she deserve priority on the tee? Absolute nonsense.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Bottom line is these guys DECIDE to give their time to the running of the golf club, no one forces them to go onto the committee/board. 

Why does he/she deserve priority on the tee? Absolute nonsense.
		
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Bottom, bottom line is, if these guys dont give their time then you dont have a club, and, if they stand for a position knowing that one the "perks" (if you can call it that) is priority on the tee for the Captain then what right has anyone to deny them their right? I have done committee work for my golf club and have Chaired my local football club for 40 years and no, I don't expect anyone to bow and scrape to me but I do expect to be treated with a modicum of respect

I would be more impressed if members bought the matter up at the AGM and asked for the right to be abolished if they were so against it, rather than say on here that they would just refuse to stand aside


Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Bottom, bottom line is, if these guys dont give their time then you dont have a club, and, if they stand for a position knowing that one the "perks" (if you can call it that) is priority on the tee for the Captain then what right has anyone to deny them their right? I have done committee work for my golf club and have Chaired my local football club for 40 years and no, I don't expect anyone to bow and scrape to me but I do expect to be treated with a modicum of respect

I would be more impressed if members bought the matter up at the AGM and asked for the right to be abolished if they were so against it, rather than say on here that they would just refuse to stand aside


Chris
		
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Absolute utter pish. 

Clubs will always run, with or without a captain what will change? A committee/board will always be elected and run the club. Infact I'll tell you what the match secretary is more deserving of a free tee time/honour on the tee than someone who has achieved the ultimate goal of what THEY want when appointed club captain.

A self obsessed goal which they can add to their CV and impress their circle of friends with by saying they are the Captain. 

Captains are not appointed they put themselves forward because they want to become involved and have some sort of status, its because they need to have this, not because the club wants them. 

As I say they would not move me from the tee. I pay my fees.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2011)

I don't think the tradition is the problem, i think the way it way carried out (as per GB's version anyway) could have been done in a lot better manor. Silly things like would you mind if we cue jumped... dont hurt, and " if we hold you up we will of course call you straight through " wouldnt have gone a miss either.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Absolute utter pish. 

Clubs will always run, with or without a captain what will change? A committee/board will always be elected and run the club. Infact I'll tell you what the match secretary is more deserving of a free tee time/honour on the tee than someone who has achieved the ultimate goal of what THEY want when appointed club captain.

A self obsessed goal which they can add to their CV and impress their circle of friends with by saying they are the Captain. 

Captains are not appointed they put themselves forward because they want to become involved and have some sort of status, its because they need to have this, not because the club wants them. 

As I say they would not move me from the tee. I pay my fees.
		
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Your answer just shows a lack of understanding of how most, certainly private, golf clubs are run, how captains and committee members are chosen and the reason why people do work for the clubs to which they belong. You make hugely sweeping statements and assumptions that in my experience are just not norm in most clubs.

I have played golf at private clubs for about 15 years and the Captain have changed each year. Yes, some need it on their CV's, but not many, in my experience. Most have the time and skills necessary to devote and have been long standing committee members and are willing to give freely of their spare time - for most its not a ego trip but a strongly held belief that they are assisting the members with their golf. When I was asked to be elected to the committee it was because I had many years of committee experience, have a business sense from running my own company, got on with and knew a lot of the members and so were in touch with their views and at the end of my 5 years felt that I had contributed to the good of the club. I was asked a number of times if I wanted to accept the Captains role but never wanted to and therefore declined.

The final point is that giving way to a Captain is not a rule at my club but is a tradition, if it was a rule at your club and you broke it, I take it that you would happily be discipined for it?  I think that the answer would be that you would storm out of the club in a fit of pique


Chris


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			I don't think the tradition is the problem, i think the way it way carried out (as per GB's version anyway) could have been done in a lot better manor. Silly things like would you mind if we cue jumped... dont hurt, and " if we hold you up we will of course call you straight through " wouldnt have gone a miss either.
		
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You are right of course OS the manner in which all concerned conduct themselves is what really counts. On the odd times that the Captain has appeared on the tee when I've been there (no more than 6 times in 12 years, I would guess) the players have invited him through, not the other way round.


Chris


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2011)

my point exactly, be invited, or even suggest it in a polite and subtle manor, but i get the impression from the original post that the captain pretty much said " im the captain and this is the rule so im doing it..." which isn't the way i would personally go about it.


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## GB72 (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			You are right of course OS the manner in which all concerned conduct themselves is what really counts. On the odd times that the Captain has appeared on the tee when I've been there (no more than 6 times in 12 years, I would guess) the players have invited him through, not the other way round.


Chris
		
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I think these posts pretty much hit the nail on the head. The way in which it was dealt with was probably more of an issue. As I said in the original post, I have no problems in general with tradition or with our captain. I think the other issue was when we pointed out that we had time constraints this was met with a 'so have we' and a brushing aside of the point.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2011)

GB72 said:



			I think the other issue was when we pointed out that we had time constraints this was met with a 'so have we' and a brushing aside of the point.
		
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I think that is the biggest issue, your restraints didnt matter... which is very ignorant.


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## thecraw (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Your answer just shows a lack of understanding of how most, certainly private, golf clubs are run, how captains and committee members are chosen and the reason why people do work for the clubs to which they belong. You make hugely sweeping statements and assumptions that in my experience are just not norm in most clubs.

I have played golf at private clubs for about 15 years and the Captain have changed each year. Yes, some need it on their CV's, but not many, in my experience. Most have the time and skills necessary to devote and have been long standing committee members and are willing to give freely of their spare time - for most its not a ego trip but a strongly held belief that they are assisting the members with their golf. When I was asked to be elected to the committee it was because I had many years of committee experience, have a business sense from running my own company, got on with and knew a lot of the members and so were in touch with their views and at the end of my 5 years felt that I had contributed to the good of the club. I was asked a number of times if I wanted to accept the Captains role but never wanted to and therefore declined.

The final point is that giving way to a Captain is not a rule at my club but is a tradition, if it was a rule at your club and you broke it, I take it that you would happily be discipined for it?  I think that the answer would be that you would storm out of the club in a fit of pique


Chris
		
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I've been a member of private golf clubs all my life so I think I know how they opperate and why committees are appointed. As you say these people "THINK" they are assisting and are in essence  really only enforcing their own ideas and beliefs. Throughout my time as a member I've experienced great club captains and some absolute clowns, I know of ones who abuse their position and those who will not even mention that they are club captain, christ I even know of one who ran up a 4k bar bill during his term as captain which the members had to pick up.

Golf clubs are stuck in their ways and captains who wish to abuse their position by jumping onto the tee infront of other members don't help. 

As I have stated Chris I would refuse to stand aside period!

As for disciplined, for what? Excuse me Mr craw, I understand that you had waited in the ball queue to get onto the first tee when the captain asked to jump the queue and go out before you is that correct?

"yes"

Why did you not stand aside for the Club Captain?

"simple really, I'm an equal member, I pay my fees and I waited in the queue for me tee slot. I refuse to allow any person to jump me unless its for a tie going back up 19!"

Its a local rule.

"and what? Club Captain or not he's not a better member than me, he may hold a position but its a position that shouldn't be abused."

Dont do it again.

"I will!"


Where are we going to go from there?


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## Dodger (Nov 21, 2011)

Thankfully I have never heard of or came across such a ridiculous ruling.

I am with Craw on this.

There are many,many clubs where the Captain does hee haw for the club but certain members of the Committee do so should those on committee who get 'their hands dirty' get this treatment??

Not in your life,and if it happened at a club I was a member at I doubt I would be hanging around long.

Outdated and archaic.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

thecraw said:



			I've been a member of private golf clubs all my life so I think I know how they opperate and why committees are appointed. As you say these people "THINK" they are assisting and are in essence really only enforcing their own ideas and beliefs. Throughout my time as a member I've experienced great club captains and some absolute clowns, I know of ones who abuse their position and those who will not even mention that they are club captain, christ I even know of one who ran up a 4k bar bill during his term as captain which the members had to pick up.

Golf clubs are stuck in their ways and captains who wish to abuse their position by jumping onto the tee infront of other members don't help. 

As I have stated Chris I would refuse to stand aside period!

As for disciplined, for what? Excuse me Mr craw, I understand that you had waited in the ball queue to get onto the first tee when the captain asked to jump the queue and go out before you is that correct?

"yes"

Why did you not stand aside for the Club Captain?

"simple really, I'm an equal member, I pay my fees and I waited in the queue for me tee slot. I refuse to allow any person to jump me unless its for a tie going back up 19!"

Its a local rule.

"and what? Club Captain or not he's not a better member than me, he may hold a position but its a position that shouldn't be abused."

Dont do it again.

"I will!"


Where are we going to go from there?
		
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Crikey!!     and there's me thinking that the years I have spent sincerely helping others, whilst I have done committee work, have been appreciated, and, in reality, the members of the various clubs I have helped have just taken the view that I, and my colleagues, were just doing it for ouselves - I'm glad to be off the golf club committee and all I have to do is resign from the football club as I couldn't live with the 5 year olds and the under 10' s realising it's all about me me me!


Chris


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## rosecott (Nov 21, 2011)

No names, no pack drill, but there are contributors to this thread who snipe from behind the barricades at those who give up their time to ensure that golf clubs continue to exist but disappear into the distance when it is suggested that they could help by volunteering their wisdom and experience.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

rosecott said:



			No names, no pack drill, but there are contributors to this thread who snipe from behind the barricades at those who give up their time to ensure that golf clubs continue to exist but disappear into the distance when it is suggested that they could help by volunteering their wisdom and experience.
		
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Mmmmmmmm  do you know, I just think you might be right!


Chris


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## elliottlale (Nov 21, 2011)

before reading this and due to being a member of a private golf club since march, i didnt realise this was 'tradition'. if i had known beforehand and wasnt willing to abide, would i have joined, NO! however, to me, it really doesnt matter. 5 mins extra id have to wait to tee off. and as i normally play in a 2 ball, id like to think he would offer me the same courtesy by waving me through at some point!
those that dont want to uphold this tradition, leave your club through principal. you dont have to be a member and your grown men arguing about who plays a game before another group of men! is this really all you have to argue about??


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2011)

no blade, we could argue about distances and tackle size too.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

elliottlale said:



			before reading this and due to being a member of a private golf club since march, i didnt realise this was 'tradition'. if i had known beforehand and wasnt willing to abide, would i have joined, NO! however, to me, it really doesnt matter. 5 mins extra id have to wait to tee off. and as i normally play in a 2 ball, id like to think he would offer me the same courtesy by waving me through at some point!
those that dont want to uphold this tradition, leave your club through principal. you dont have to be a member and your grown men arguing about who plays a game before another group of men! is this really all you have to argue about??
		
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It's not a golf tradition Elliott, but is a tradition at quite a lot of clubs.

Even though our Captain this year is someone who I absolutely have no respect for, I would still invite him to play through, as I respect the Captains position.

 I find it funny that people are saying that they would, in effect, tell the Captain where to go if he asked to be extended the right that his golf club had conferred on him, and that some even say that they would leave if it happened - I wonder what would happen if the club were to request a member to leave the club if they failed to observe the rule - mayhem I would guess!


Chris


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 21, 2011)

I`m sure the captain and committee do a lot for golf clubs and I'm also sure they give up a lot of their time and money but for me this isn't about that. It's about getting up early enough to play if you are pushed for time and if you can't do that, don't play.

As I said in a previous post, the captain most likely gets to play more often this time of year than most of the guys on the 1st tee who are probably playing their one round of the week. If it's too dark for the captain to get round then the captain knows full well him jumping the queue means someone else will most likely finish in the dark - how is that right or decent? Forget the tradition it's about common decency.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's about getting up early enough to play if you are pushed for time and if you can't do that, don't play.

As I said in a previous post, the captain most likely gets to play more often this time of year than most of the guys on the 1st tee who are probably playing their one round of the week. If it's too dark for the captain to get round then the captain knows full well him jumping the queue means someone else will most likely finish in the dark - how is that right or decent?
		
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I absolutely agree that a Captain wishing to make use of this tradition should be totally fair and not barge through knowing that others would not get a full round in. I always play in the early morning so it wouldn't be an issue for me and my group. The posting were more about whether he should actually have the right to walk to the front of the tee rather than the timing of his appearance


Chris


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## GB72 (Nov 21, 2011)

The post was more about the way in which it happened, the fact that it was made clear that we were not playing through and the fact that whilst it is a tradition it makes it no less annoying when it happens to you. I have never said that it should not happen and I duly stood aside but any form of queue jumping whether you have the right to do so or not annoys me. The further point was not just the 10 minutes on the tee but the half an hour or so that it added to the round playing behind a mixed four ball that meant that two of our group could not finish the round


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2011)

GB72 said:



			The post was more about the way in which it happened, the fact that it was made clear that we were not playing through and the fact that whilst it is a tradition it makes it no less annoying when it happens to you. I have never said that it should not happen and I duly stood aside but any form of queue jumping whether you have the right to do so or not annoys me. The further point was not just the 10 minutes on the tee but the half an hour or so that it added to the round playing behind a mixed four ball that meant that two of our group could not finish the round
		
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I agree with you GB but I came in when the postings changed direction to the - " I wouldn't move aside " mob.


Chris


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## Steve71163 (Nov 21, 2011)

I have always been a one for tradition but what he did is plain rude Captain or not.
To me its just about decentcy.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2011)

GB72 said:



			The post was more about the way in which it happened, the fact that it was made clear that we were not playing through and the fact that whilst it is a tradition it makes it no less annoying when it happens to you. I have never said that it should not happen and I duly stood aside but any form of queue jumping whether you have the right to do so or not annoys me. The further point was not just the 10 minutes on the tee but the half an hour or so that it added to the round playing behind a mixed four ball that meant that two of our group could not finish the round
		
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I think that this was just down right rude.


Itâ€™s the circumstances that would annoy me. Iâ€™m all for tradition, but not to behave like that.

I play at Tain with the previous captain and I know he would never do this if people had been queuing for any length of time in the cold. One of the guys I play with at Nairn is vice Captain this year and Captain next and he even gave me his place one Saturday morning cos he knew it was my only game of the weekend. its this sort of thing which builts respect, not pushing in.


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## Dodger (Nov 21, 2011)

patricks148 said:



			I think that this was just down right rude.


Itâ€™s the circumstances that would annoy me. Iâ€™m all for tradition, but not to behave like that.

I play at Tain with the previous captain and I know he would never do this if people had been queuing for any length of time in the cold. One of the guys I play with at Nairn is vice Captain this year and Captain next and he even gave me his place one Saturday morning cos he knew it was my only game of the weekend. its this sort of thing which builts respect, not pushing in.
		
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Patrick,when you say he 'gave you his space' do Captains actually have an actual set time allocated to them through their tenure??

I have played this game a long time and I have never,ever heard of anything like this,yes Captains are shown respect (most of them,if they command it) but they are just a punter like you or I when it comes to playing golf and should book/reserve their own bloody tee time not expect to hop on the tee any time they like.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Patrick,when you say he 'gave you his space' do Captains actually have an actual set time allocated to them through their tenure??

I have played this game a long time and I have never,ever heard of anything like this,yes Captains are shown respect (most of them,if they command it) but they are just a punter like you or I when it comes to playing golf and should book/reserve their own bloody tee time not expect to hop on the tee any time they like.
		
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no, it was one of our sort of roll ups where our group have a few times and i being fairly new would have expected to be left as i was last there and everyone was on the tee. He said "no you have my place, i can play all week"

I thought this was such a nice gesture, esp towards a new member.


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## viscount17 (Nov 21, 2011)

chrisd said:



			This thread goes to show how tradition and values have changed over the years. Ours is a traditional club and it's not that the Captain would march up and demand to take precedence on the tee. The players who were next to go would honour what has always been traditional, and invite the Captain to go next should he wish to do so. Some do and some don't take up the offer. 

Many people here seem to have an inbuilt anti authority attitude but they forget what the Captain does for them during the year in office. Our current Captain is , to me, a prize ****** , but for the members he runs the Golf Committee, organises most of the mens matches, turns up at loads of functions and gives speeches at the drop of a hat. He runs a charity during the year and, this year, gave Â£5k + to the hospice. He represents the Club at all manner of events, ones we would all like to do to the most mundane ones.  He gets involved with sorting out all manner of problems for the Club with players, suppliers, staff etc etc and loads more of other jobs.

What do they get for their trouble - at our place ... one years free subs (worth Â£1000) but they Captains job cost one Captain (he told me) about Â£3k during his year. The pleasure and the pain that goes with the job and the privilige on the tee if he cares to!

I wouldn't do the job if you picked me up in a gold limo on a Sunday!! and I especially wouldn't do it for people who would moan about an odd privilige that is traditional at most member clubs 


Chris
		
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interesting, but what are the rest of the committee doing? 
ours chairs the committee, the secretary runs it
and its the secretary who sorts out day to day problems
competitions are organised and run by the competition and handicap secretaries
yes, he hosts the charity events, and represents the club at other functions, and I know it costs them to be captain.
fortunately ours is a good bloke, I don't know if we have that rule but I can't see him ever using it, though there are one or two others who certainly would.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2011)

I guess what is different at my club is that we dont have tee times.  We have slots in the day on which tees two or four balls can play from and it's first come first served.    The Captain has priority on the first tee only, I have never seen him do this but if he requested it I would not see a problem in letting him through.


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## Fyldewhite (Nov 22, 2011)

OK, a lot has been said on this thread but as a current club Captain I'd just like to add a few comments....

Firstly, I would never, ever, storm on to the tee expecting to be let through. A few years ago I was waiting to tee off for a knockout match at  another local club and the Captain did just that saying "I'm the Captain, I can tee off when I like". Charming I thought, what a Tw*t.

Secondly, being the Captain of your club is probably the biggest honour most mere mortals who can never even hope to be great players can be given in golf. I know there are exceptions but the vast majority have worked tirelessly for their clubs for many years before being nominated. When we've had Captain's who aren't in that category then who's fault is that? not the guy who had the guts to stand not being a "club stalwart" that's for sure.

In addition, yes, most get some help with hospitality (I get Â£1800) but believe me most (including me!!) are not ahead cost wise by a large margin over the year. The role is to represent the club in the local area and we do that to the best of our ability I'm sure. In my area there are 8 clubs who are part of the "bigger club" but I can assure you there isn't one of us who hasn't a) been very honoured to be captain, b) Done an awful lot for our respective clubs and c) been considerably out of pocket for the privilege. It's a big responsibility and although very rewarding isn't really the notch on your CV that some imagine.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2011)

The further point was not just the 10 minutes on the tee but the half an hour or so that it added to the round playing behind a mixed four ball that meant that two of our group could not finish the round
		
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Which is exactly my point, tradition or not, it's just plain rude, thoughtless and arrogant and says a lot about the kind of person this captain is.

You have to remember that not every on will know who the captain is, I'll be honest and say I don't know who this years captain is at our place and I know several people who don't know the incoming captain. If our captain did this to me on the tee I'd think he was arrogant and would be complaining to the club know in no uncertain terms that captain or not, his attitude stinks and it would certainly put me off supporting captains Day and stuff like that


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## RichardC (Nov 22, 2011)

It surprises me that you don't know who your current captain is.

Maybe it's just me.

Captain at our's is fantastic, and like Chrisd our's is very traditional in that sense. On a Sunday there is a start sheet and if anyone brings a guest along, then the Captain ALWAYS makes it his business to go over and introduce himself and welcome the guest to the club.


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2011)

I played in an Open at Seaford Golf Club earlier this year. Great event and well organised. The Captain wasn't playing but was manning the half way hut with the lady captain and they made a point of coming out and welcoming everybody as they came off the 9th green, introducing themselves and asking whether we were enjoying the day and offering us drinks and nibbles. I thought it was a nice touch and was a good example of how captains promote their club.
If a club captain came up to me on the first tee and explained the situation in the correct manner I would have no hesitation in allowing him to tee off ahead of me.
If one barged in front of me "demanding" that he be allowed to play first, I would give him a well deserved gobfull of Smiffy abuse.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 22, 2011)

It's my first year Smiffy and I missed captains day due to work. I'm at the club a couple of times a week and never been introduced to him, maybe he's there at different times? I'm certainly no stranger to the club and know quite a few people but not met the skipper.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

So, the end result is, from what I can ascertain from the various postings is that almost everyone (me included) would not be happy for a Captain to march on the 1st tee and demand to be next group off, but I would still stand aside so long as no one in our group had hit his tee shot already. If he appeared on the tee at 8.15 at my club he would be invited to tee next - we dont have tee times unless it's a comp and then he would already have picked the time he wanted - that would be the protocol at our place and he may refuse the offer but may step in front of others if there were to be 4 or 5 groups waiting to go. Finally there are a few posters who, if the Captain walked to the tee would not stand aside come what may.

Pretty much what I would expect.

Chris


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 22, 2011)

We have photo's of the club captain, vice captain, ladies captain, ladies vice captain and the club president on display in the entrance hall and again in the main hall. Even though I don't know any of them personally, I haven't so much as had a drink with any of them, to my surprise both last years and this years captain know me by name. They are always extremely polite, you get a wave if they see you on the course, a handshake if they are on an adjacent tee. I'll add our club president into this mix, where he and his wife stood on the first tee all day at this years Presidents day, introducing themselves to everyone that played on the day, asking questions about the club development that we have in progress and taking on board feedback. Whilst I'm sure that there are an equal number of unpleasant captains out there, I've only had experience of good ones thus far. As far as their one year tenure goes, if the club rule/ tradition says they get privilege on the tee, then they get privilege on the tee. If they choose to exercise that privilege, they are not doing anything wrong. Yes, there are good and bad ways of doing this, some may feel inconvenienced, but it is still a perk of their position bestowed by the club and as a club member I abide by the club rules/ tradition. 

There was a thread on here the other day about doing what we like in matchplay. the general consensus was golf rules should be adhered to at all times and you should call a penalty on yourself if you fail to adhere to them. If the captain gets priority, I  don't see why those same beliefs shouldn't apply in this case.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2011)

Wow! 

As a past Capt at a club with the tradition of the him having a priviledge on the first tee I guess I better be careful what I say in the this thread.

Members who "created" the club bring in a number of traditions down the years. If a member doesn't like the rules or traditions of club he can always raise it at the AGM and ask the members to support his proposal for change. Until that happens I would expect members to respect the tradition of the club even if they disagree with it - no one should pick and choose what traditions they will follow if they signed up to be members. Change via an AGM and you'd have my respect, but sniping form the bar isn't the way to do it.

For a competition sheet the tradition doesn't apply. As Capt I never barged through but was invited through many, many times and only took up the offer once. I was in a club knockout and had priority anyway. The Capt has to respect the priviledge too, and not abuse it.

On the issue of does the Capt earn the right to go to the front of the queue, or to have his own car park space; that's for the members to decide. The members vote for who they want in office, and that office comes with the priviledges and responsiblities that the members have voted on down the years. If as a member you disagree with that tradition you have three choices, try and change it, accept it or go elsewhere.

Is being Capt hard work? That depends on how a particular club is structured. Personally, I was knackered by the end of my year - even after many years on committee I hadn't realised just how time consuming the position was and I fully appreciate how the general membership don't understand what is involved. And free golf at other clubs... I never got the chance, nor the time. 

Inviting a Capt through to tee off costs you what? It costs you about 8 minutes. And you're not willing to give him 8 minutes of your time in recognition of his hardwork and his position within the club??? Says more about other people's selfishness really.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! 



Inviting a Capt through to tee off costs you what? It costs you about 8 minutes. And you're not willing to give him 8 minutes of your time in recognition of his hardwork and his position within the club??? Says more about other people's selfishness really.
		
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 Well with my reply to the OP & a few others agreed with me , some of us have no issue with tradition of INVITING or LETING the captain play before us , we do or would have issues with the captain barging through & insisting on playing .. I agree we have the 3 options you mentioned but If enough people decided on option 3 of going elsewhere there wouldnt be much need for a captain would there ? you say "change via AGM & you will have my respect" , i say ask to play through & you will have mine .. you will be captain for one year , i could be a member for 1 to 50 years (not me il be dead by then ) Its very funny that you say the member will only loose what ? 8 mins ? likewise the captain would only loose 8 mins ? in recognition of his hard work ?. the lady in our office , the lady that runs our pro-shop looks after all the competition cards every weekend (no sign of captain at 6.30am in the summer), ok you will say the captain doesnt get paid , so how bout the club sec , comp sec , president & other hard working committe members? should i let all them play 1st.. Respect in the golf club like in life is earned , if it is attained by been voted into a position it doesnt carry any sway with me anyhow .. Im too old in the tooth & work too hard to get the bobs to pay my membership to respect anyone who hasnt earned it , Our captain has his name on the time sheet like everyone else , will walk over & join new members at the bar , will eat with ordinary members etc & is totaly respected & liked , if i asked him did he wish to play through he would say definatly not you play away & enjoy.. If i respect the tradition & let the captain through & therefor i miss my tee time, i am by the rules of golf disqualified .. does tradition or rules mater most in golf ?


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Respect in the golf club like in life is earned
		
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My understanding was that everyone starts out being respected and can only, therefore, with their actions, lose it!



Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

Hobbit, Chrisd etc,

No one is saying that the captains don,t deserve credit for the job at their respective clubs. They do however volunteer and accept the role off their own backs. How much time and effort they dedicate is again at their own discretion, as is their application. Why do you think you get varying reports on good and bad captains?

Back on track jumping queues is a disgusting pig headed abuse of any pathetic constitution or local rule. As I say I wouldn't stand aside if it was at my home course, I would at another course however it would leave a very very bitter taste. If I had paid I'd go back and ask for a refund and leave explaining why! AGM, your dam right I'd be bringing it up. 

As for selfish, we'll I'm not the ignorant sod jumping to the front. Just like with junior members, I don't demand to be let through them on the tee like a lot of ignorant senior members. I'll wait till they wave me through, why, because they're members and deserve to play like anyone else!


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			My understanding was that everyone starts out being respected and can only, therefore, with their actions, lose it!



Chris
		
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Not for me anyway Chris , id give people i dont know the benifit of the doubt & i definatly would not disrespect them , but to me respect is earned by your actions .. there is a difference between showing respect to someone & having respect for some one , showing respect is a reflection of you , earning respect is a reflection of them ..


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

rosecott said:



			No names, no pack drill, but there are contributors to this thread who snipe from behind the barricades at those who give up their time to ensure that golf clubs continue to exist but disappear into the distance when it is suggested that they could help by volunteering their wisdom and experience.
		
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I assume that was aimed at me. In response I'd like to point out that I served on committee for 3 years at a young age, 22-25 as Social and House. Would I do it again, would I help out my golf club if asked. No problem. Have all facts to hand before shooting from the hip.

Would I stand aside on the first tee even as a committee member. I think you know the answer!


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			I assume that was aimed at me. In response I'd like to point out that I served on committee for 3 years at a young age, 22-25 as Social and House. Would I do it again, would I help out my golf club if asked. No problem. Have all facts to hand before shooting from the hip.

Would I stand aside on the first tee even as a committee member. I think you know the answer!
		
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Ditto with spots on it,well said that man.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2011)

Bladeplayer, you talk about earning respect. Does the Captain's previous years of hard work not earn respect?
 He's not a here today, gone tomorrow politician. He will almost certainly done years of service for the club, through choice and FOC, and he doesn't do it in the expectation of anything in return. He does it because he wants to, because he cares about the club AND by virtue of that the members too. As to your comment about if you let him through you'll be in breach of the rules of golf...... read all what I posted originally. A good Captain, IMO, won't barge through with, "sorry gents but its my right..." A good Captain will decline the offer and thank the member(s) for recognising the office and traditions of the club. Time is a precious commodity to everyone, and a Captain needs to understand that many members have commitments at home, or elsewhere, and not spoil a member's round before its even started.

Craw, I'd happily support your democratic right to raise it at an AGM, even if I disagreed with you but as to flouting the traditions of the club, demanding your money back and going elsewhere. In all honesty, I'd pay you to go if that's your attitude to rules and traditions. Follow due process, get the change through and I'd support the "new" rule without any problem at all. 

How many times does anyone stop and hold a door open for the person following behind, and over 1 year how much time does that amount to? And you can't give 8 minutes to the club captain, someone who has given so much to you down the years? Sad, very sad...


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

What right does a captain have to do this Hobbit? Answer me that???


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Not for me anyway Chris , id give people i dont know the benifit of the doubt & i definatly would not disrespect them , but to me respect is earned by your actions .. there is a difference between showing respect to someone & having respect for some one , showing respect is a reflection of you , earning respect is a reflection of them ..
		
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Treat people how you want Blade but, for me, that quote is a very sad indictment of the direction this country seems to be going.

You probably detect that I am right behind Hobbit with his views but I didn't want to come out and say it as I am trying to earn the respect of forum members - how long will it take I wonder??


Chris


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			Bladeplayer, you talk about earning respect. Does the Captain's previous years of hard work not earn respect?
He's not a here today, gone tomorrow politician. He will almost certainly done years of service for the club, through choice and FOC, and he doesn't do it in the expectation of anything in return. He does it because he wants to, because he cares about the club AND by virtue of that the members too. As to your comment about if you let him through you'll be in breach of the rules of golf...... read all what I posted originally. A good Captain, IMO, won't barge through with, "sorry gents but its my right..." A good Captain will decline the offer and thank the member(s) for recognising the office and traditions of the club. Time is a precious commodity to everyone, and a Captain needs to understand that many members have commitments at home, or elsewhere, and not spoil a member's round before its even started.



QUOTE]The girl running the shop for years , previous captains . previous & present committe members we have retired members who all do as much if not more ? do i let them all go ?? To quote you if i can please mate "he doesn't do it in the expectation of anything in return. He does it because he wants to, because he cares about the club AND by virtue of that the members too. " seemingly the guy in the OP wants to barge through when he wants to in return .. if you were the captain & cared about your members would you barge past & play befor them? Also if you read my post earlier (number 10 or 11 i think) i mentioned if the captain had a word by himself that he would like to play through most members would oblige , can i just clarify id have no problem obliging anyone if i was asked properly , i would have a problem with been bullied off the tee ..
		
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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

Great discussion men.We all have a views and these should be respected,some of us agree with it some think it promotes elitism.

It is my view that it is a strange ruling to have within a club and IMO a very,very unnecessary one to have and I for one am glad either of my clubs do not have such a ruling and that I have not come across such a strange ruling in 30 years of playing the game.

It is very outdated and archaic and reeks of all that is wrong within golf,let's rid the game of such archaic rulings and take the game into the next century.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Treat people how you want Blade but, for me, that quote is a very sad indictment of the direction this country seems to be going.



Chris
		
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I would give people i dont know the benifit of doubt & wouldnt disrespect them.. is a sad indictment.. explain please


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

This is going on forever but I do think that a point is being missed here.

 No one has condoned a Captain barging to the front of the tee and demanding the right to go off, in fact very much the opposite. What we are saying is that a lot of clubs bestow upon the Captain, the right to be allowed to have the honour on the first tee if there are members waiting to tee off, but, this right would obviously not exist in clubs that have tee times or during competitions.

Where this rule/tradition exists most good Captains would never ask to go throgh but would be asked by the next guys waiting to tee off if he wished to play first - he may accept or decline. I have been on the tee when the group waiting to go were not aware of who the Captain was and other members discretely had a word in their ear and they gladly moved aside. I have also invited Captains to have the tee and they have declined. 

If the Captain has to ask then I fear that the tradition is, in fact, no longer a tradition!

Chris


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			I would give people i dont knowthe benifit of doubt & wouldnt disrespect them.. is a sad indictment.. explain please
		
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I am older than you Blade, when I grew up you were taught to respect people. Teachers, policemen, in fact everyone. We didn't give them the benefit of the doubt, there would be no doubt, until something occured that raised doubt. Basically it's a question of which direction you come from. 

We started from the end that everyone should be respected and you start from the end that they have to firstly earn your respect - maybe in the end we come to the same conclusion!


Chris


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I am older than you Blade, when I grew up you were taught to respect people. Teachers, policemen, in fact everyone. We didn't give them the benefit of the doubt, there would be no doubt, until something occured that raised doubt. Basically it's a question of which direction you come from. 

We started from the end that everyone should be respected and you start from the end that they have to firstly earn your respect - maybe in the end we come to the same conclusion!


Chris
		
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Thats accepted mate , good discussion in general this one ..


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Thats accepted mate , good discussion in general this one ..
		
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We've met in the middle Blade - how good is that!

Now where's The craw?


CHris


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2011)

To be fair, we were not given the chance to invite him through as he told us of his intentions before anyone could say anything. That said, I would not have offered as I have never seen it done before and I have been on the tee with a number of past captains. 

I am not sure how others view the position but I can only draw from my experience of running rugby teams at committee level in the past and from my brother running his local cricket club. In both of those positions, we gave up our time for free, spent money and in many ways carried out duties similar to a golf club captain. The difference is that we were expected to put our own interests behind those of the players at all times. This would mean that if there were too many palyers in our positions, we would be the first to put ourselves on the subs bench as we knew that we would still be here next year but a player who did not get on the pitch may not. People describe taking the burden of office and that is my understanding of it. 

Again, not going back into the argument of whether the captain could do what he did (he clearly has the right) but whether he should. 

Let us change the scenario a bit, if the captain had been standing on the tee with the rest of us, realised the time and said look I am short on time so I am looking to use my privelege then that would be one matter. As it happened, he turned up with his 4 ball, put his shoes on and headed up to the tee. Now, if I were short on time and know that there is no booking system then I would turn up early to allow for a queue. As such, the intention was never to queue but rather to head to the front. Again, no argument as to whether he could do this as the has the right, but whether he should.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

GB72 said:



			Let us change the scenario a bit, if the captain had been standing on the tee with the rest of us, realised the time and said look I am short on time so I am looking to use my privelege then that would be one matter. As it happened, he turned up with his 4 ball, put his shoes on and headed up to the tee. Now, if I were short on time and know that there is no booking system then I would turn up early to allow for a queue. As such, the intention was never to queue but rather to head to the front. Again, no argument as to whether he could do this as the has the right, but whether he should.
		
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My guess is that he always would expect to walk to the front of the queue so the question as to whether he should, probably never entered his mind. If the rule/tradition of the club allowed this then the only real critism is his manner. 


Chris


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## bladeplayer (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			We've met in the middle Blade - how good is that!

Now where's The craw?


CHris
		
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 Standing behind the captain waiting to reply ..


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Standing behind the captain waiting to reply .. 

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And wondering whether ettiquette allows him to use a wedge to disembowel the Captain or if he should use a putter?


Chris


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			What right does a captain have to do this Hobbit? Answer me that???
		
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That depends on the club he is Captain of. Some do it it, and some don't. At my club the Captain wasn't supposed to go to the bar during his year in office. I've seen a Captain barely buy a drink all year, and I've seen many Captains pass money to others for them to go to the bar for him. It was a tradition I chose to ignore, and when I went to the bar I was often offered first place in the queue ahead of anyone else waiting - I waited my turn. 

What right does he have to have a car park space?

Its a tradition that's evolved down the years and has become part of (some) club's fabric. Is it right? That's for the members to decide. Is it right for a member to chose to ignore that tradition? NO! As I've already said, change it by due process. Paying your subs doesn't give anyone the right to pick and chose what rules they're willing to observe but it does give them the right to question them and seek to change them via the appropriate channels within the club.


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## Jonny (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			And wondering whether ettiquette allows him to use a wedge to disembowel the Captain or if he should use a putter?


Chris
		
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I would say it depends upon the amount of bounce and whether or not the putter is heel or centre shafted as there are probably rules about what club you are allowed to use in such circumstances.


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			That depends on the club he is Captain of. Some do it it, and some don't. At my club the Captain wasn't supposed to go to the bar during his year in office. I've seen a Captain barely buy a drink all year, and I've seen many Captains pass money to others for them to go to the bar for him. It was a tradition I chose to ignore, and when I went to the bar I was often offered first place in the queue ahead of anyone else waiting - I waited my turn. 

What right does he have to have a car park space?

Its a tradition that's evolved down the years and has become part of (some) club's fabric. Is it right? That's for the members to decide. Is it right for a member to chose to ignore that tradition? NO! As I've already said, change it by due process. Paying your subs doesn't give anyone the right to pick and chose what rules they're willing to observe but it does give them the right to question them and seek to change them via the appropriate channels within the club.
		
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Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Jonny said:



			whether or not the putter is heel or centre shafted
		
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Well it's clearly going to be centre shafted - is there any other way?


Chrsi


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!
		
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Long may you enjoy these new found freedoms!


Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Long may you enjoy these new found freedoms!


Chris
		
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That was aimed at the organ grinder, not the monkey!


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!
		
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Personally Craw I could not think of anything worse than being a member of a club like that where these crusty outdated traditions are upheld and thankfully I am not.I am all for upholding traditions of the game but not ridiculous,outdated ones that have been around since Major Farquarson and his pink gin brigade were in charge. 

I think that down south there are many clubs that still lean toward the old school style attitude and that is their choice but in my opinion,as in yours,golf needs to in general drag itself into the next century and rid itself of the things that see it continue to be perceived as an elitist sport played by stuffy old men.

Thankfully this attitude is less prevalent up here. 

I have often wondered what I would do if I were offered a job in such an establishment though......I really do not think I could or if I did I don't think I could last longer than a month!


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			That was aimed at the organ grinder, not the monkey!

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I just wonder whether the place will feel the same when the members start wearing a string vest, cargo shorts halfway down the calf, bellowing down the mobile phone and swilling pints of larger on the tee - and god knows what the male members will be like!


Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I just wonder whether the place will feel the same when the members start wearing a string vest, cargo shorts halfway down the calf, bellowing down the mobile phone and swilling pints of larger on the tee - and god knows what the male members will be like!


Chris
		
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Certainly a lot more entertaining than the old chap network.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Personally Craw I could not think of anything worse than being a member of a club like that where these crusty outdated traditions are upheld and thankfully I am not.I am all for upholding traditions of the game but not ridiculous,outdated ones that have been around since Major Farquarson and his pink gin brigade were in charge. 

I think that down south there are many clubs that still lean toward the old school style attitude and that is their choice but in my opinion,as in yours,golf needs to in general drag itself into the next century and rid itself of the things that see it continue to be perceived as an elitist sport played by stuffy old men.

Thankfully this attitude is less prevalent up here. 

I have often wondered what I would do if I were offered a job in such an establishment though......I really do not think I could or if I did I don't think I could last longer than a month!

Click to expand...


My club is certainly a traditional members club in the South East of the country but is not a "Wentworth". The members are, by and large, ordinary working people, builders , plumbers small business owners through to doctors, accountants etc. The club atmosphere is good and most of the guys I see on a Sunday morning are the ex footballers I used to kick lumps out of 35 years ago.

The members do like to have a dress code and are generally happy with observing traditions but when they want things changed they do raise concerns, often at an AGM but otherwise through the committee. Your stereotyping of clubs down south is way off the mark but if the points that Thecraw made in a few posts ago means that his place is a modern forward thinking club I am happy to be considered an old Major General stuffed shirt - and I promise you I am not!!


Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			My club is certainly a traditional members club in the South East of the country but is not a "Wentworth". The members are, by and large, ordinary working people, builders , plumbers small business owners through to doctors, accountants etc. The club atmosphere is good and most of the guys I see on a Sunday morning are the ex footballers I used to kick lumps out of 35 years ago.

The members do like to have a dress code and are generally happy with observing traditions but when they want things changed they do raise concerns, often at an AGM but otherwise through the committee. Your stereotyping of clubs down south is way off the mark but if the points that Thecraw made in a few posts ago means that his place is a modern forward thinking club I am happy to be considered an old Major General stuffed shirt - and I promise you I am not!!


Chris
		
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So are denim jeans beneath you?


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			So are denim jeans beneath you?
		
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Not when I go to support the might Crystal Palace but certainly wouldn't wear them at the golf club, but at least I know that I could wear my golf gear at any golf club in the country and you couldn't!


Chris


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			My club is certainly a traditional members club in the South East of the country but is not a "Wentworth". The members are, by and large, ordinary working people, builders , plumbers small business owners through to doctors, accountants etc. The club atmosphere is good and most of the guys I see on a Sunday morning are the ex footballers I used to kick lumps out of 35 years ago.

The members do like to have a dress code and are generally happy with observing traditions but when they want things changed they do raise concerns, often at an AGM but otherwise through the committee. Your stereotyping of clubs down south is way off the mark but if the points that Thecraw made in a few posts ago means that his place is a modern forward thinking club I am happy to be considered an old Major General stuffed shirt - and I promise you I am not!!


Chris
		
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Who stereotyped? All I said was that there are many more down south that lean toward the old school.......do you really think that is wide of the mark?!


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## thecraw (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Not when I go to support the might Crystal Palace but certainly wouldn't wear them at the golf club, but at least I know that I could wear my golf gear at any golf club in the country and you couldn't!


Chris
		
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Oh, my dear old boy. Please read what I wrote again. Jeans are accepted in the clubhouse. Guess what has happened as a result. Bar takings are up 17% as a result of members going to the club to watch football golf etc instead of their local pub. Families are using facilities more now due to Mrs and weans being able to come up for meals without having to change into slacks or frocks.

To date I have never worn jeans on a golf course even at Millport or Machrihannish where its acceptable. 

More and more clubs are relaxing dress codes up here in the untamed kilt wearing uneducated bagpipe playing Scotland. Still we did at least invent the game, so its understandable that we see fit to relax traditions first.


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2011)

What are jeans?

I don't own a pair, what ever they are.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Who stereotyped? All I said was that there are many more down south that lean toward the old school.......do you really think that is wide of the mark?!

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I do think that it is wide of the mark. Clubs are moving with the times and dress codes are relaxing and various other things are too as attracting new members becomes more urgent. 

An example of this, 10 years ago my club wouldn't look at anyone over 21 handicap joining on a 7 day membership, that has had to be a rule that was abolished.

All golf is changing and it did need to

Chris


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Oh, my dear old boy. Please read what I wrote again. Jeans are accepted in the clubhouse. Guess what has happened as a result. Bar takings are up 17% as a result of members going to the club to watch football golf etc instead of their local pub. Families are using facilities more now due to Mrs and weans being able to come up for meals without having to change into slacks or frocks.

To date I have never worn jeans on a golf course even at Millport or Machrihannish where its acceptable. 

More and more clubs are relaxing dress codes up here in the untamed kilt wearing uneducated bagpipe playing Scotland. Still we did at least invent the game, so its understandable that we see fit to relax traditions first.
		
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I did read what you wrote young man - I didn't infer that you play in jeans!

I am sure that a relaxation of the dress code in our clubhouse would also improve the takings and I personally, although stricken in years, have suggested that a relaxation is the way forward and I believe that the rule governing the wearing of white gloves and cravats in the dining suite after 12 o clock could be given some consideration. 

We are also grateful that you kindly invented the game and take some pleasure in the fact that we are still playing your invention in the balmy teeshirt weather down south while you chilly jocko's are being rained off most weekends

Chris


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I do think that it is wide of the mark. Clubs are moving with the times and dress codes are relaxing and various other things are too as attracting new members becomes more urgent. 

An example of this, 10 years ago my club wouldn't look at anyone over 21 handicap joining on a 7 day membership, that has had to be a rule that was abolished.

All golf is changing and it did need to

Chris
		
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Good on them,another ridiculous ruling that has been consigned to history,whatever next...?Captains have to play when it is their time?

By jove,it appears things are moving into the next century at last down your way....long may it continue. 

It is however still my opinion that clubs oop north are more in tune with the modern era than many down south especially around certain sites surrounding the capital.


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## brendy (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			An example of this, 10 years ago my club wouldn't look at anyone over 21 handicap joining on a 7 day membership, that has had to be a rule that was abolished.

All golf is changing and it did need to

Chris
		
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Sorry Chris , I just half choked on my lukewarm coffee there. We have some stuffy clubs over here but none that were that bad. 
Our club also went down the blue denim route last year with a fairly unanimous vote at the AGM, those that voted against it were all in the later stages of their lives and were carpark golfers. They never hung about for the rugby/footy/golf on the bigscreen in the mens bar, turn up to watch the teams and then complain about their social levy.
When were they ever in the place to see these rascals in their smart denim? A couple of guys did a pretty comprehensive survey of other local clubs and those that allowed denim all with the exception of one were turning over an extra 10-30% in profits. The veterans could still wear their polyester breeks and moth eaten club jumpers sipping their half pints, imagine if 70's golfwear and similar attire was to be outlawed... 
Change isnt so bad if it gets a chance to go to the vote, majority rules and all that.

On the subject of Captains though, if there weren't so many perks (Free drink, free golf at other clubs, fancy blazer etc etc), would they all still jump at the chance? I doubt it and guess this is why most club secretaries, handicap secretaries, golf conveners etc remain in their positions for years, noone else is chomping at the bit to get in on a piece of the non glitzy aspect.

Dont get me wrong though, If someone wants to be Captain and gets voted in by committee or whatever then fine, there is a fairly large time demand placed on them with events, competitions, charity work etc. Generally (yes generalisation) most captains are usually either retired or have that time to spend.
On the first tee I wouldnt hesitate in offering his fourball out in front of ours if they happened to be in a large group of guys waiting to go out.
 I wouldnt like to see the reception they would get if they came onto the teebox in a rush demanding to get away, I think they would be shown to the 10th teebox by a good few members.


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## richart (Nov 22, 2011)

Read this thread with interest, as I think our club has the tradition that the Captain can tee off when he likes. In my four years at the club I have never seen it happen, and I have played regularily with all the captains in competitions and our roll ups. It might be a tradition but it doesn't mean it has to be used. I know we have had plenty of banter on the first tee with our captains about trying to use the tradition, and what would happen to them. 

Our current captain is on his second time round because nobody wanted to do the job. Our captain in our centenary year in 2013 was also captain in 2009. I take my hat off to them for being prepared to put in the time and effort for the benefit of the club. They also raise a huge amount for charity, and if they get a years free membership and play some nice courses for free, good luck to them.

Our current captain came down to support the Golf Monthly Forum Meet, stayed for the meal, gave out the prizes, and generally made everyone welcome. Easy to knock people for their efforts, but I am sure that if anyone did the job themselves they might change their opinion.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!
		
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Craw old boy, you seem to have misunderstood the point I was making, and made several times. I respect the rules and traditions but recognise that its up to members what they want. 

Do I agree with women in golf and equal rights? Having stood up at AGM's and argued for equal access for women donkey's years ago...and a few years back having a pop at the stuffed shirts at an AGM for their lack of support for the Lady Captain... Juniors in golf, having argued for junior access to the clubhouse, all comps and a lifting on the limit of 20 juniors in the club I guess I'm a bit more forward thinking than you make the assumption I am. Oh, and guess who goes into the club in jeans??? 

Like I said, you've missed my point.... by miles. I support the rules and traditions at the club until the members decide that they want to change them. Then I support the new rules and traditions - its called democracy. Maybe you need to remove the blinkers and actually read my previous posts again.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			its called democracy
		
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and that my friends is the correct answer!



Chris


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

brendy said:



			Sorry Chris , I just half choked on my lukewarm coffee there. We have some stuffy clubs over here but none that were that bad.
		
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In those days membership was full to overflowing and they could get away with it. I was on the committee that voted to do away with the (unwritten) rule


Chris


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2011)

Just ordered my new suit for when I play Turnberry....


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## richart (Nov 22, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Just ordered my new suit for when I play Turnberry....
View attachment 230

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I see the right arm is already in your natural position.


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			In those days membership was full to overflowing and they could get away with it. I was on the committee that voted to do away with the (unwritten) rule


Chris
		
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Out of interest.....
How was it ever a rule if it was unwritten??


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2011)

This was the Captain at Crowborough during Centenary celebrations in 1995.
We had relaxed our dress code for the week.
We were trendsetters....


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Out of interest.....
How was it ever a rule if it was unwritten??

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I had a rule book and it wasn't in it but no one ever got 7 day membership unless they were sub 21 handicap.

Thats as close to an unwritten rule that I could see


Chris


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2011)

We have/had a similar rule re: 21 h/cap for full membership. Ditto for captains tee privilege, and parking space. Can't really see what the problem is. Without some traditions (or oddities) I might as well join a pay and play built yesterday. It's a question of character.

We have had one captain in the ten years I have been a member who used his right on the tee. He was, and remains, a complete knob.


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I had a rule book and it wasn't in it but no one ever got 7 day membership unless they were sub 21 handicap.

Thats as close to an unwritten rule that I could see


Chris
		
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Then they were clearly breaking the constitution of the club then surely not to mention a possible discrimination subject?

Clubs need to be really looking at their constitutions closely at the moment as some of them are in breach of legality and parts of the constitutions can effect them if applying for funding/grants etc etc.

As I have said previously,some clubs need to get into this century and if they do the game will be all the better for it.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 22, 2011)

well reading page 7-12 was a way of passing time and educational.


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2011)

Never heard of not letting higher handicappers join as full members is a new one on me. That said, when I was looking to move to a new area a couple of years ago a club did say that I could join the waiting list for full membership or could jump the queue if I had ever played county level and join straight up.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Treat people how you want Blade but, for me, that quote is a very sad indictment of the direction this country seems to be going.

You probably detect that I am right behind Hobbit with his views but I didn't want to come out and say it as I am trying to earn the respect of forum members - how long will it take I wonder??


Chris
		
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chrisd said:



			My club is certainly a traditional members club in the South East of the country but is not a "Wentworth". The members are, by and large, ordinary working people, builders , plumbers small business owners through to doctors, accountants etc. The club atmosphere is good and most of the guys I see on a Sunday morning are the ex footballers I used to kick lumps out of 35 years ago.

The members do like to have a dress code and are generally happy with observing traditions but when they want things changed they do raise concerns, often at an AGM but otherwise through the committee. Your stereotyping of clubs down south is way off the mark but if the points that Thecraw made in a few posts ago means that his place is a modern forward thinking club I am happy to be considered an old Major General stuffed shirt - and I promise you I am not!!


Chris
		
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Very, very good thread this one and I've enjoyed reading the varying views. A couple of points for me. I actually agree with Bladeplayer. In my book if you want me to respect you it has to be earned in deed or manner. I'll try and treat everyone fairly, especially strangers I've never met, but for arguments sake, show a disregard to golf etiquette for example by not repairing pitch marks and you can be the captain of any number of clubs but I won't respct you.

My club is a private members club down south too and the 19th is one of the friendliest I know. We have all walks of life in there and all pretentions are left at the door. Come in, have a chat, a laugh and a beer. Respect the dress code, keep the language down a tad for the juniors and enjoy yourself


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Then they were clearly breaking the constitution of the club then surely not to mention a possible discrimination subject?

Clubs need to be really looking at their constitutions closely at the moment as some of them are in breach of legality and parts of the constitutions can effect them if applying for funding/grants etc etc.

As I have said previously,some clubs need to get into this century and if they do the game will be all the better for it.
		
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This was before equality, and was when there was a fair waiting list for 7 day membership. You have to remember that all the 7 day members were under 21 when they joined so no one was going to get shirty over it. Also, if there were say, 20 x 7 day memberships available at the year end then not only would you have to be sub 21 but the lowest handicaps got in no matter how long everyone had been on the list. It didn't matter if your handicap went up over 21 at all.

This hasn't been the case for about 7 years now and would never be allowed now anyway, but when I started playing golf I had to join another club further away until I got down to 16, and then applied to join. Players over 21 h/cap would almost certainly be offered 5 day membership



Chris


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2011)

Cat 1s still get in straight away, no five day membership, etc.


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## sweatysock41 (Nov 22, 2011)

We're not fussy at our place - anybody can join straight away as long as they stump up the cash. The joys of being at a proprietory course.  

I think though that the balance is just about right - we do allow jeans in the clubhouse etc but the captain does have privelege on the course - although as I said earlier none of them seem to take advantage of this.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

sweatysock41 said:



			We're not fussy at our place - anybody can join straight away as long as they stump up the cash.
		
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Smiffy, Smiffy you there!


Chris


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## Dodger (Nov 22, 2011)

chrisd said:



			This was before equality, and was when there was a fair waiting list for 7 day membership. You have to remember that all the 7 day members were under 21 when they joined so no one was going to get shirty over it. Also, if there were say, 20 x 7 day memberships available at the year end then not only would you have to be sub 21 but the lowest handicaps got in no matter how long everyone had been on the list. It didn't matter if your handicap went up over 21 at all.

This hasn't been the case for about 7 years now and would never be allowed now anyway, but when I started playing golf I had to join another club further away until I got down to 16, and then applied to join. Players over 21 h/cap would almost certainly be offered 5 day membership



Chris
		
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It may have been before equality but I am still struggling to understand how they got around it considering it was clearly a totally made up ruling outwith a constitution......21 handicap??Why this figure?Was that plucked out from the sky also?

If aliens came down and read some of the pish rulings that are/were connected with golf clubs they would jump back on that ship sharpish I reckon.

Oh look,new smiley.......a bit of progress in golf!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2011)

Give me a traditional members club that maintains good standards of dress and behaviour.   Although there may be rules most golfers dont need disciplining, they are happy to maintain these standards for the enjoyment of the vast majority.

I have played at clubs where people shout and scream at each other on the course, where they drop fag packets and empty beer tins, where they dress in any pirate rig that suits them both on the course and in the clubhouse, where they hack the ball around and holler like baboons when it flys onto another fairway.  

If people want to spend their leasure time in this type of environment then join a club that allows it, for me I prefer to spend my time amongst people with good manners and standards, I pay a lot for my membership but find  it worthwhile due to the fact that I am a member of a club that maintains the type of standards I prefer.

The members are not elete, they are from all types of trades and proffessions and are a very friendly crowd indeed.     I expect some personal insults over this post but I am just as entitled to my views on the subject as anyone and will state and defend them.

Puts on flameproof suit and stands braced.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2011)

Dodger said:



			It may have been before equality but I am still struggling to understand how they got around it considering it was clearly a totally made up ruling outwith a constitution......21 handicap??Why this figure?Was that plucked out from the sky also?

If aliens came down and read some of the pish rulings that are/were connected with golf clubs they would jump back on that ship sharpish I reckon.

Oh look,new smiley.......a bit of progress in golf!

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It came about as far as I know because the members over many years didn't want beginners to ruin their weekend golf so they set a handicap that would mean that any new members could play to a certain standard. They ran the club and to some extent did what they wanted.  I dont find it a suprise that a completely full club could get away with whatever they wanted to do. There was no constitution, there was a rule book, but this was an unofficial, arbitary "rule" done to enhance the weekend golfers pleasure - who was going to complain?

When things changed and we started needing more members to fill the "dead mans boots" the 21 handicap became 25 (I think) and then eventually abolished altogether. The problem also was that many members paid their subs year on year but many hardly ever played, but, as the fees continued to rise, the older ones began to baulk at renewing,leaving the club to find 50 - 60 new members a year from the previous 25 or so who were always recruited from the waiting list.

When I joined, about 14 years ago I had to pay a joining fee of about Â£600 and a sub of about Â£400, I wasn't elected until Xmas but I still had to pay the full year from September.


Everything has changed now and people are treated properly and fairly and if the recession and equality is good, I guess, this is one example - there are still many who would hanker after the old days I would guess if the clock could be turned back


Chris


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

SocketRocket said:



			Give me a traditional members club that maintains good standards of dress and behaviour.   Although there may be rules most golfers dont need disciplining, they are happy to maintain these standards for the enjoyment of the vast majority.

I have played at clubs where people shout and scream at each other on the course, where they drop fag packets and empty beer tins, where they dress in any pirate rig that suits them both on the course and in the clubhouse, where they hack the ball around and holler like baboons when it flys onto another fairway.  

If people want to spend their leasure time in this type of environment then join a club that allows it, for me I prefer to spend my time amongst people with good manners and standards, I pay a lot for my membership but find  it worthwhile due to the fact that I am a member of a club that maintains the type of standards I prefer.

The members are not elete, they are from all types of trades and proffessions and are a very friendly crowd indeed.     I expect some personal insults over this post but I am just as entitled to my views on the subject as anyone and will state and defend them.
		
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Here, here.


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Here, here.
		
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Me too Smiffy


Got it in one Socket, for me, the difinitive summing up of the thread

I am worried about you Smiffy though - posting your reply at 4.39am!!!



Chris


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I am worried about you Smiffy though - posting your reply at 4.39am!!!



Chris
		
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Paper round


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## USER1999 (Nov 23, 2011)

Loo paper?


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

SocketRocket said:



			Give me a traditional members club that maintains good standards of dress and behaviour. Although there may be rules most golfers dont need disciplining, they are happy to maintain these standards for the enjoyment of the vast majority.

I have played at clubs where people shout and scream at each other on the course, where they drop fag packets and empty beer tins, where they dress in any pirate rig that suits them both on the course and in the clubhouse, where they hack the ball around and holler like baboons when it flys onto another fairway. 

If people want to spend their leasure time in this type of environment then join a club that allows it, for me I prefer to spend my time amongst people with good manners and standards, I pay a lot for my membership but find it worthwhile due to the fact that I am a member of a club that maintains the type of standards I prefer.

The members are not elete, they are from all types of trades and proffessions and are a very friendly crowd indeed. I expect some personal insults over this post but I am just as entitled to my views on the subject as anyone and will state and defend them.

Puts on flameproof suit and stands braced.
		
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Surprised you would expect personal insults ? as for your views, yes sir you surely are entiled to air your view on the subject, thats what makes this a great forum , i have read your post a couple of times & i still dont know how it relates to the OP tho .. our club has the good standard of dress & behaviour, members dont need diciplining , we dont throw beeer cans etc around the place , the membership is made up of a massive cross section of society who all behave & are friendly , very relaxed & easy going in the clubhouse but neat dress is required etc , i dont know how the refrence to people shouting , droping beer cans etc relates in any way to the captain insisting he plays 1st tho ? you will find everything you say you like in our club & id say in most clubs that the forumers are part of , captain wont barge past you tho .. i apologise but i am slightly puzzled by the post & it relevence .. smiffy & chris obviously got it , im sorry but i dont , can you please tell me how it relates to the OP ? thanks


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks for this thread all.  Quite an interesting read.

Erudite posts full of common sense from Hobbit, Socket Rocket and surprisingly admirable stance from Chris.  Totally agree with Murph too.

Craw and Dodger's interjections are pretty typical and further evidence that both have a massive chip on their shoulder relating to most things English but specifically, golf clubs of a certain standing in the south of England, their members, rules and traditions.  Furthermore, any chance to belittle or criticise them is siezed upon faster than a dropped fiver on a Glasgow pavement!   It is obvious that this is the case and equally apparent that there is no compromise or consensus with the likes of me.   We are opposite ends of arguments like this so not much point arguing the toss as an agreement is impossible.


That said and for what it is worth, my own twopenneth is that if I was on the 1st tee at a club and the Captain arrived, I would offer him the courtesy of the first tee straight away.  This is surely the right thing to do - it is just good manners. 

I would not mind if the Captain accepted or declined the offer either.  They are the Captain and they have certain perks.  

That said, if they demanded to come through in an ungentlemenly fashion, I would have a quiet word with them in the bar afterwards about the level of courtesy they used when taking up their 1st tee perk. 


PS - Jeans at a golf club are just wrong.

PPS - You should take your hat off in the clubhouse.


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## Dodger (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Thanks for this thread all.  Quite an interesting read.

Erudite posts full of common sense from Hobbit, Socket Rocket and surprisingly admirable stance from Chris.  Totally agree with Murph too.

Craw and Dodger's interjections are pretty typical and further evidence that both have a massive chip on their shoulder relating to most things English but specifically, golf clubs of a certain standing in the south of England, their members, rules and traditions.  Furthermore, any chance to belittle or criticise them is siezed upon faster than a dropped fiver on a Glasgow pavement!   It is obvious that this is the case and equally apparent that there is no compromise or consensus with the likes of me.   We are opposite ends of arguments like this so not much point arguing the toss as an agreement is impossible.


That said and for what it is worth, my own twopenneth is that if I was on the 1st tee at a club and the Captain arrived, I would offer him the courtesy of the first tee straight away.  This is surely the right thing to do - it is just good manners. 

I would not mind if the Captain accepted or declined the offer either.  They are the Captain and they have certain perks.  

That said, if they demanded to come through in an ungentlemenly fashion, I would have a quiet word with them in the bar afterwards about the level of courtesy they used when taking up their 1st tee perk. 


PS - Jeans at a golf club are just wrong.

PPS - You should take your hat off in the clubhouse.
		
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Snelly, you really do not know me or what you are talking about regarding me at all.

I can't and won't comment on behalf of The Craw but what you have posted about be is just plain and utter pish.

Plenty on here will know where my views come from and what I am currently doing to drag a club/clubs into this century and my views are supported by people within a governing body of golf no less.

Next.


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Thanks for this thread all.  Quite an interesting read.

Erudite posts full of common sense from Hobbit, Socket Rocket and surprisingly admirable stance from Chris.  Totally agree with Murph too.

Craw and Dodger's interjections are pretty typical and further evidence that both have a massive chip on their shoulder relating to most things English but specifically, golf clubs of a certain standing in the south of England, their members, rules and traditions.  Furthermore, any chance to belittle or criticise them is siezed upon faster than a dropped fiver on a Glasgow pavement!   It is obvious that this is the case and equally apparent that there is no compromise or consensus with the likes of me.   We are opposite ends of arguments like this so not much point arguing the toss as an agreement is impossible.


That said and for what it is worth, my own twopenneth is that if I was on the 1st tee at a club and the Captain arrived, I would offer him the courtesy of the first tee straight away.  This is surely the right thing to do - it is just good manners. 

I would not mind if the Captain accepted or declined the offer either.  They are the Captain and they have certain perks.  

That said, if they demanded to come through in an ungentlemenly fashion, I would have a quiet word with them in the bar afterwards about the level of courtesy they used when taking up their 1st tee perk. 


PS - Jeans at a golf club are just wrong.

PPS - You should take your hat off in the clubhouse.
		
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Snelly thanks for the racist slur, I'd advise you edit your post. Where have I once slated a course or made crud racist slurs on any English course. As for your stereotypical suggestion of a tight Scotsman or Glaswegian in your instance I think that sums up your intelligence.


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

I saw yesterday something that just summed up Thecraws type of golf club where reasonable standards are allowed to go by the wayside

I popped out to a pay and play course very close to where I work and hit a couple of buckets on their range before doing a little putting practice. As I walked back through their car park there were 2 guys at the back of an open van getting ready to play and one of them was standing in his underpants and just about to put his trousers on - in full view!

This club has quite superb changing facilities 30 yards away, and is a good enough club that a friend who is a current Challenge Tour golfer who has held a European Tour card for a few years, was having a lesson but this is what standards drop to when rules and traditions slip. I am not saying that he wouldn't have been admonished had he been spotted but that he would contemplate doing it was, for me, the issue - he wouldn't do it at my club!


Chris


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I saw yesterday something that just summed up Thecraws type of golf club where reasonable standards are allowed to go by the wayside

I popped out to a pay and play course very close to where I work and hit a couple of buckets on their range before doing a little putting practice. As I walked back through their car park there were 2 guys at the back of an open van getting ready to play and one of them was standing in his underpants and just about to put his trousers on - in full view!

This club has quite superb changing facilities 30 yards away, and is a good enough club that a friend who is a current Challenge Tour golfer who has held a European Tour card for a few years, was having a lesson but this is what standards drop to when rules and traditions slip. I am not saying that he wouldn't have been admonished had he been spotted but that he would contemplate doing it was, for me, the issue - he wouldn't do it at my club!


Chris
		
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How do you know that a bumble bee hand't just flown up the poor man's trouser leg and he and to get it out before he get a nasty one on the old fella?

Its not always what it looks and can be wrong to jump to conclusions!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

thecraw said:



			How do you know that a bumble bee hand't just flown up the poor man's trouser leg and he and to get it out before he get a nasty one on the old fella
		
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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

thecraw said:



			How do you know that a bumble bee hand't just flown up the poor man's trouser leg and he and to get it out before he get a nasty one on the old fella?

Its not always what it looks and can be wrong to jump to conclusions!
		
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I suppose the clue may have been that there were two pairs of trousers .....   unless the bumble bee had sh*t on one of the pairs!


Chris


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## NWJocko (Nov 23, 2011)

This thread has been a really good read, but.....

ChrisD and Snelly, your last posts are at best fairly arrogant and also in exactly the same vein as what you are criticising others for, only from the other end of the spectrum.

ChrisD - You go on about respecting rules of a club but were part of a committee that blatantly made up rules as it went along to suit them and ensure only the right standard of person was allowed into "my type of club"?
Is that not a little hypocritical?  I don't know your club but it doesn't sound very welcoming if your committee endorses the view that high handicappers would "ruin my weekends golf"!!  

I appreciate both sides of the argument and all clubs are different.


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

Also Chrisd,why is it my type of course? I play my golf at a private course, as far as I'm aware pants are not allowed in the car park but I'll double check my book.


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Snelly thanks for the racist slur, I'd advise you edit your post. Where have I once slated a course or made crud racist slurs on any English course. As for your stereotypical suggestion of a tight Scotsman or Glaswegian in your instance I think that sums up your intelligence.
		
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OK, OK, OK - Scotsmen aren't tight and Dodger loves Surrey.  I take it all back.   You are both really secret Anglophiles - I can see it now!  Please don't take this to the race relations board! 

And sorry about being unintelligent too - I can't help it.  Mind you, at least I can spell crude....


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

NWJocko said:



			This thread has been a really good read, but.....

.

ChrisD - You go on about respecting rules of a club but were part of a committee that blatantly made up rules as it went along to suit them and ensure only the right standard of person was allowed into "my type of club"?
Is that not a little hypocritical? I don't know your club but it doesn't sound very welcoming if your committee endorses the view that high handicappers would "ruin my weekends golf"!! 

I appreciate both sides of the argument and all clubs are different.
		
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I have said that this was some years ago and I was involved in its being stopped and my club is now being run in an entirely better way - I did make this point very clearly. Also, a lot of clubs up and down the country did things very differently  years back.

Also, Jocko, you don't seem to have picked up the more good humoured sarcasm that has run throught this thread


Chris


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 23, 2011)

chrisd said:



			As I walked back through their car park there were 2 guys at the back of an open van getting ready to play and one of them was standing in his underpants and just about to put his trousers on - in full view!

Chris
		
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He may actually have forgotten his golf trousers and the Head Pro was making him play in his pants. That was always the rule enforced by psychotic PE teachers at school...


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2011)

I was always against jeans in the club house until a few months ago when a ridiculous situation arose. The plan was to play a round of golf, have something to eat then head off out afterwards. It rained, I was soaked but wanted to go in the clubhouse so what are my options. Go in wearing my wet gear or bring a third set of clothes. To have a quick sandwhich I would have had to change out of my golf gear into some trousers and a shirt for the 20 minutes I was going to spend in the clubhouse then change again into my jeans etc that I was going out in. People then wonder why members are not popping into the clubhouse after a round. Take another example, my wife and I are driving past the club and fancy a bite to eat. Can we do that, no because we both wear jeans most of the time. 

If my club wants more revenue, it should allow jeans but is unlikely to ever agree to that as the aging membership do not wear them


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

GB72 said:



			I was always against jeans in the club house until a few months ago when a ridiculous situation arose. The plan was to play a round of golf, have something to eat then head off out afterwards. It rained, I was soaked but wanted to go in the clubhouse so what are my options. Go in wearing my wet gear or bring a third set of clothes. To have a quick sandwhich I would have had to change out of my golf gear into some trousers and a shirt for the 20 minutes I was going to spend in the clubhouse then change again into my jeans etc that I was going out in. People then wonder why members are not popping into the clubhouse after a round. Take another example, my wife and I are driving past the club and fancy a bite to eat. Can we do that, no because we both wear jeans most of the time. 

If my club wants more revenue, it should allow jeans but is unlikely to ever agree to that as the aging membership do not wear them
		
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!00% behind you on this. As long as the jeans are not ripped or hanging off your backside advertising your boxer shorts logo then they are acceptable IN OUR CLUBHOUSE, not on the golf course and the difference in bar takings has justified the relaxation of club rules. I'm the same as you GB72, I've been out with the Mrs craw and the weans and swung by the golf club on the way home for lunch/bite to eat. Previously it would have been into a pub or cafe for a bar meal or snack. 

The clubhouse is also busier now with people watching football etc. Not everyone's cuppa but it certainly works in our environment.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

how does a debate on captains end up talking about a naked man in a car park.... or jeans in the club house. Random!


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			how does a debate on captains end up talking about a naked man in a car park.... or jeans in the club house. Random!
		
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It has moved on to traditions, attitudes etc.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

Im only 32 so in relation pretty young when compared to the average golfers age, but im a traditionalist and wish clubs would steer clear on the jeans.


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## ivan (Nov 23, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			how does a debate on captains end up talking about a naked man in a car park.... or jeans in the club house. Random!
		
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i am relatively new to both golf and this forum but was wondering the same thing.  also, do threads often degenerate into slanging matches between what appears to be arrogant, insensitive and bigoted people? 

 i knew that some golfers & golf clubs were a bit old fashioned, men focused, not tolerant of newcomers etc but this subject has surprised me - glad that i have not, as yet, come across such people on the courses where i have played but perhaps i have that "pleasure" to come.

are there Moderators on this forum who are supposed to stop abuse - if so, where are they???


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## Twire (Nov 23, 2011)

ivan said:



			i am relatively new to both golf and this forum but was wondering the same thing. also, do threads often degenerate into slanging matches between what appears to be arrogant, insensitive and bigoted people? 

i knew that some golfers & golf clubs were a bit old fashioned, men focused, not tolerant of newcomers etc but this subject has surprised me - glad that i have not, as yet, come across such people on the courses where i have played but perhaps i have that "pleasure" to come.

are there Moderators on this forum who are supposed to stop abuse - if so, where are they???
		
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You'll find that lots of threads go off on a tangent, it's a bit like chineese whispers.

As for slanging matches? All I can see is a heated debate, nothing more. If you do see abuse, or are offended by posts on this forum use the little black triangle at the bottom left of the post and that will send a report direct to the moderators.


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## DaveM (Nov 23, 2011)

As of last year at my club they relaxed the no jeans in the club house rule. Mainly as many of the members old and young, complained that they passed the club on the way home from work. But had to go home change then come back to the club, just to see what time they were out at the weekend. Seems to work ok. In fact most only wear jeans when they call in on passing. Generally you see no jeans in the club house. No jeans are allowed on the course. Oh and no trainer type shoes anywhere.


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## RichardC (Nov 23, 2011)

thecraw said:



			!00% behind you on this. As long as the jeans are not ripped or hanging off your backside advertising your boxer shorts logo then they are acceptable IN OUR CLUBHOUSE, not on the golf course and the difference in bar takings has justified the relaxation of club rules. I'm the same as you GB72, I've been out with the Mrs craw and the weans and swung by the golf club on the way home for lunch/bite to eat. Previously it would have been into a pub or cafe for a bar meal or snack. 

The clubhouse is also busier now with people watching football etc. Not everyone's cuppa but it certainly works in our environment.
		
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I have been on the other side of this arrangement.

My old club relaxed the dress code in the clubhouse and for functions. After about a year I kept seeing members on the course in dark jeans and a few months after that I even saw people in full denim (can't think of another term). I have since left this club as it is now more of a cheap pay and play/pub than a golf club.

I know you may ask why nothing was done about this!! They tried to pull people into line and some of the people in question decided to walk. After a few had walked they then decided that they would now not try and stop the practice in case they lost even more members, and so it began.

Im not saying that all clubs that change dress codes will end up like this, but I would hate to be a member of another club that went the same way.


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2011)

There is no real abuse on this tread just a bit of usual banter.

That said, I enjoy what you post Snelly, but you are stuck in some 1950â€™s  themed Famous Five parody. 
The position of Captain should carry no respect, the individual in the position should carry respect or otherwise. If you like &respect the Captain let him play through. If heâ€™s a knob treat him as such. 

I have to agree with The Craw and Dodger on this. Some of the rules in certain golf clubs have no place in a modern society. Many need to drag themselves into the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] Century. There is a fear that if you relax the rules then you will be over run by beer swilling trouserless louts.Thatâ€™s just not true, it sounds a bit like a Daily Mail argument against immigration to me. 

I for one would not join a club that demanded deference to theCaptain, or stipulated that only handicaps below 21 could have a 7 day membership. Itâ€™s myopic, anachronistic nonsense (you can add joining fees to that also)

There are a handful of clubs in Dorset, that I enjoy playing,but would never join. They have the atmosphere of a Victorian boys public school. I expect to get told off at every turn for breaking some 100 year old bye law!


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## brendy (Nov 23, 2011)

therod said:




I for one would not join a club that demanded deference to theCaptain, or stipulated that only handicaps below 21 could have a 7 day membership. Itâ€™s myopic, anachronistic nonsense (you can add joining fees to that also)

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You are a 22 handicapper aren't you?


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2011)

only on a good day


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

RichardC said:



			I have been on the other side of this arrangement.

My old club relaxed the dress code in the clubhouse and for functions. After about a year I kept seeing members on the course in dark jeans and a few months after that I even saw people in full denim (can't think of another term). I have since left this club as it is now more of a cheap pay and play/pub than a golf club.

I know you may ask why nothing was done about this!! They tried to pull people into line and some of the people in question decided to walk. After a few had walked they then decided that they would now not try and stop the practice in case they lost even more members, and so it began.

Im not saying that all clubs that change dress codes will end up like this, but I would hate to be a member of another club that went the same way.
		
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This is my point totally, the old saying " give them an inch " springs to mind. 

My course may be in a bit of a position here as its a muni that is struggling so pretty much allow you to play in whatever within reason, but to me golf was meant to be a  sport which carried a bit of class. how can you allow jeans in the club house but not on the course, then a couple creap on and before you know it standards have slipped.

personally im against the jeans thing 100%. i dont even wear jeans of sorts when using my range.


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 23, 2011)

My club also has a health club, gym and hairdressers/beauty salon on the premises. As a result there are gym members coming and going in their tracksuits and trainers, plus women coming in for their hair appointments dressed casually. I can't say that this has had any effect on the way golfers adhere to the club usual dress code or raised any issues about relaxing it.

My club is pretty chilled out about a lot of things and also quite progressive. I like it that way.

I think there is room for different types of club. If the more formal, old-school ones want to stick to their traditions and can keep memberships up, then fine. Others are pursuing more modern approaches which work for them, and good luck to them. People can join clubs that suit their own outlook.


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

Famous Five parody?  Nice!  

Look it is perfectly simple.  There will always be clubs to cater for every taste.  Some clubs will be old fashioned, rule leaden, traditional and a bit crusty.  These places cater for people who want to play two balls and foursomes, change into a jacket and tie for a world class carvery lunch, wash it down with a couple of bottles of decent Cote de Beaune then have a snooze in the members lounge.  Wearing jeans, donning a cap indoors or not letting the Captain through on the first tee are capital offences!   This is not everyones cup of tea, I accept that.  However they are mine and I don't expect to be castigated for it.

There will also be clubs that are far more relaxed that are perfect for some and cater for a different clientele.  Much more modern.  A nice parkland course that is packed at the weekends with all and sundry who share a common delight in buying the latest gear and playing at the speed of a GPS routed tortoise.  A nice 5 hour round can be followed by a sandwich served in a plastic packet and a delicious pint of UK brewed Stella. Members can then sit in front of a 54" TV and watch Sky Sports whilst wearing their latest pair of jeans, white  trainers and Superdry polo shirts.   This is idyllic for some.  Not me though. I would rather pop my balls on a belt sander then dip them in Tabasco sauce than be a member of a club like this.

And there are lots of types of club in between and either side of these stereotypes too of course. But that is one of the things that makes golf in the UK great.  There are venues to suit all palettes and we can all find a place we are comfortable with.

The issues of conflict arise, especially in this topic, when the members of one type of club denigrate the behaviours/rules/values of another or insinuate that an old fashioned club MUST change for whatever reason.   This makes me argumentative!   In fact they don't need to change.  No-one here can change them.  They are what they are and for some of us they are perfect. 

I am just as guilty of criticising the type of clubs and behaviours that I don't like too of course but you should note that I am being more mischievous than malicious.   Certainly not abusive or racist!  


Anyway, must dash.  I have a date with Anne, George and Timmy the dog.  Lashings of Ginger Beer and hoping for a quick 4-ball in father's study!


Snelly.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Famous Five parody? Nice! 

Look it is perfectly simple. There will always be clubs to cater for every taste. Some clubs will be old fashioned, rule leaden, traditional and a bit crusty. These places cater for people who want to play two balls and foursomes, change into a jacket and tie for a world class carvery lunch, wash it down with a couple of bottles of decent Cote de Beaune then have a snooze in the members lounge. Wearing jeans, donning a cap indoors or not letting the Captain through on the first tee are capital offences! This is not everyones cup of tea, I accept that. However they are mine and I don't expect to be castigated for it.

.
		
Click to expand...

Snobby git , :lol: (who voted for the horrible smileys )


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Famous Five parody?  Nice!  

Look it is perfectly simple.  There will always be clubs to cater for every taste.  Some clubs will be old fashioned, rule leaden, traditional and a bit crusty.  These places cater for people who want to play two balls and foursomes, change into a jacket and tie for a world class carvery lunch, wash it down with a couple of bottles of decent Cote de Beaune then have a snooze in the members lounge.  Wearing jeans, donning a cap indoors or not letting the Captain through on the first tee are capital offences!   This is not everyones cup of tea, I accept that.  However they are mine and I don't expect to be castigated for it.

There will also be clubs that are far more relaxed that are perfect for some and cater for a different clientele.  Much more modern.  A nice parkland course that is packed at the weekends with all and sundry who share a common delight in buying the latest gear and playing at the speed of a GPS routed tortoise.  A nice 5 hour round can be followed by a sandwich served in a plastic packet and a delicious pint of UK brewed Stella. Members can then sit in front of a 54" TV and watch Sky Sports whilst wearing their latest pair of jeans, white  trainers and Superdry polo shirts.   This is idyllic for some.  Not me though. I would rather pop my balls on a belt sander then dip them in Tabasco sauce than be a member of a club like this.

And there are lots of types of club in between and either side of these stereotypes too of course. But that is one of the things that makes golf in the UK great.  There are venues to suit all palettes and we can all find a place we are comfortable with.

The issues of conflict arise, especially in this topic, when the members of one type of club denigrate the behaviours/rules/values of another or insinuate that an old fashioned club MUST change for whatever reason.   This makes me argumentative!   In fact they don't need to change.  No-one here can change them.  They are what they are and for some of us they are perfect. 

I am just as guilty of criticising the type of clubs and behaviours that I don't like too of course but you should note that I am being more mischievous than malicious.   Certainly not abusive or racist!  


Anyway, must dash.  I have a date with Anne, George and Timmy the dog.  Lashings of Ginger Beer and hoping for a quick 4-ball in father's study!


Snelly.
		
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Post of the year.


You posh git


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Snobby git , :lol: (who voted for the horrible smileys )
		
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I am a snob, but not a git. 

Posh?  Impossible as I am originally from Sheffield!


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			I am a snob, but not a git.
		
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 apologies

Smiffy apologise please


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Post of the year.


You posh git
		
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yep Jezz needs look no further than Snelly's reply for his funniest/best post.... genius  

I suddenly feel the need to go and buy some tweed!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Smiffy apologise please

Click to expand...

Up yours


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

therod said:



			yep Jezz needs look no further than Snelly's reply for his funniest/best post.... genius 

I suddenly feel the need to go and buy some weed!
		
Click to expand...

Fixed


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



 apologies

Smiffy apologise please

Click to expand...


No apology required.  In fact, to some I am most definitely, a git! Just ask Dodger!


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Up yours


Click to expand...

Never get to play at Snellys with that attitude


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			No apology required.  In fact, to some I am most definitely, a git! Just ask Dodger! 

Click to expand...

You'll no be going to the Scotland vee England bash next year then???


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Never get to play at Snellys with that attitude
		
Click to expand...

Play it?????
I'm the bally Secretary
:angry:


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			You'll no be going to the Scotland vee England bash next year then???
		
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Depends on the time of year old fruit.  If it coincides with the Spring run of Salmon on the Tweed or the glorious 12th for grouse on the Scottish moors then I might well do.  

Pip pip.


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

fantastic thread. My club is still in the "pants and shirt in the clubhouse" fraternity and I knew this when I joined so I don't really have an issue with it. It would be useful if Jeans were allowed as this is my usual attire, but at the moment they aren't and I am not really overly bothered so won't be complaining..
Anyway, I have nothing new to add. I just wanted e mail updates so that I knew when this thread had been added to....Carry on..


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Famous Five parody?  Nice!  

Look it is perfectly simple.  There will always be clubs to cater for every taste.  Some clubs will be old fashioned, rule leaden, traditional and a bit crusty.  These places cater for people who want to play two balls and foursomes, change into a jacket and tie for a world class carvery lunch, wash it down with a couple of bottles of decent Cote de Beaune then have a snooze in the members lounge.  Wearing jeans, donning a cap indoors or not letting the Captain through on the first tee are capital offences!   This is not everyones cup of tea, I accept that.  However they are mine and I don't expect to be castigated for it.

There will also be clubs that are far more relaxed that are perfect for some and cater for a different clientele.  Much more modern.  A nice parkland course that is packed at the weekends with all and sundry who share a common delight in buying the latest gear and playing at the speed of a GPS routed tortoise.  A nice 5 hour round can be followed by a sandwich served in a plastic packet and a delicious pint of UK brewed Stella. Members can then sit in front of a 54" TV and watch Sky Sports whilst wearing their latest pair of jeans, white  trainers and Superdry polo shirts.   This is idyllic for some.  Not me though. I would rather pop my balls on a belt sander then dip them in Tabasco sauce than be a member of a club like this.

And there are lots of types of club in between and either side of these stereotypes too of course. But that is one of the things that makes golf in the UK great.  There are venues to suit all palettes and we can all find a place we are comfortable with.

The issues of conflict arise, especially in this topic, when the members of one type of club denigrate the behaviours/rules/values of another or insinuate that an old fashioned club MUST change for whatever reason.   This makes me argumentative!   In fact they don't need to change.  No-one here can change them.  They are what they are and for some of us they are perfect. 

I am just as guilty of criticising the type of clubs and behaviours that I don't like too of course but you should note that I am being more mischievous than malicious.   Certainly not abusive or racist!  


Anyway, must dash.  I have a date with Anne, George and Timmy the dog.  Lashings of Ginger Beer and hoping for a quick 4-ball in father's study!


Snelly.
		
Click to expand...


Nuff said. 

Your course must be one heck of a world beater if its a better place than Turnberry. I assume you must be a member of Royal County Down or Muirfield then?

Actually its amazing, lets go back to Turnberry again. The last time I was at Turnberry I showered, changed and went upstairs for a bite. (I'm lucky my cousin is a member) As I'm sitting relaxing with my playing partners I get chatting to an American who was still in his spikes and waterproof jacket, large cap at a jonty angle on his head. Wonderful old gentleman who informs me that he sold off his engineering firm for an 8 figure sum and is currently touring Ireland and Britain playing the best links with his wife in tow.

I assume in your club Snelly this wouldn't be heard of. No I'm not talking about the golf shoes, waterproof jacket and cap on in the clubhouse. I'm talking about the fact that this multi millionaire was chatting to me, a poor working class bloke, even although I was better dressed than my rich American friend!

Sadly people like you exist in the world of golf!


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Never get to play at Snellys with that attitude
		
Click to expand...

Play it? I don't even recognise the wine they sell.... Can you get that at Asda?


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			fantastic thread. My club is still in the "pants and shirt in the clubhouse" fraternity and I knew this when I joined so I don't really have an issue with it. ..
		
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It's the pants in the car park fraternity that seems to be the problem if previous posts are anything to go by....


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

What's a "jonty angle?"


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			It's the pants in the car park fraternity that seems to be the problem if previous posts are anything to go by....
		
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Bloody hell... the committee would need an industrial dose of smelling salts if people were in the car park in their pants.. They've only just stopped people changing their shoes in the car park...


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Play it? I don't even recognise the wine they sell.... Can you get that at Asda?
		
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They wouldnt know what adsa was :lol: ( & no is not an opel car )


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			They wouldnt know what adsa was :lol: ( & not is not an opel car )
		
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I don't think i've ever felt quite so working class in my entire life....


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			What's a "jonty angle?"

Click to expand...

It is a traditional American way of wearing one's hat when in the presence of that rare and beautiful thing...........the tolerant and benevolent Scotsman....!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			It is a traditional American way of wearing one's hat when in the presence of that rare and beautiful thing...........the tolerant and benevolent Scotsman....!





Click to expand...

I knew you'd know.
You're right posh you are Geezer.
Right posh.
How's the fourball going?????


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 23, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			They wouldnt know what adsa was :lol: ( & no is not an opel car )
		
Click to expand...

You mean there is a green-branded supermarket that isn't Waitrose? By jove...


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think i've ever felt quite so working class in my entire life....
		
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Move to Scotland before the feeling leaves you


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Move to Scotland before the feeling leaves you


Click to expand...

Don't have to.. Thats what Yorkshire is for.. to make us Lancastrians feel all posh again.... Tally ho pip, im orf oop Parbold hill to join the hunt and then a few liveners in the Stocks, before donning the old military attire and making fun of the proles in the Red Lion...


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			I knew you'd know.
You're right posh you are Geezer.
Right posh.
How's the fourball going?????
		
Click to expand...

Really well!  The good news is that Anne was so delighted with my upside down piano playing that she has decided to dip into her trust fund and invest in a little opportunity I have been working on.  Can't say too much but it should be a winner - North Sea Oil! Cher-ching!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Really well!  The good news is that Anne was so delighted with my upside down piano playing that she has decided to dip into her trust fund and invest in a little opportunity I have been working on.  Can't say too much but it should be a winner - North Sea Oil! Cher-ching! 



Click to expand...

I'd love to dip into Annes truss while she was standing upside down


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## thecraw (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			It is a traditional American way of wearing one's hat when in the presence of that rare and beautiful thing...........the tolerant and benevolent Scotsman....!





Click to expand...


Do try harder old boy!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

thecraw said:



			Do try harder old boy!
		
Click to expand...

That's what Anne said


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Is anyone else getting this mental picture?



I would heartily recommend the 6 iron Mr Snelly...


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## bladeplayer (Nov 23, 2011)

And away in another direction this happy little thread goes , Greg i bet you didnt forsee all this when you started this


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## Snelly (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Is anyone else getting this mental picture?
View attachment 236


I would heartily recommend the 6 iron Mr Snelly...
		
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Not quite.  This is me in the spike bar at Turnberry last year....


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Not quite.  This is me in the spike bar at Turnberry last year....






Click to expand...

Class.... Genuinely made me laugh out loud.. Not LOL, as only commoners LOL...


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## Dodger (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Not quite.  This is me in the spike bar at Turnberry last year....






Click to expand...

Can't be.....that's Fosters not pink gin he's holding.


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## stevie_r (Nov 23, 2011)

Snelly said:



			I would rather pop my balls on a belt sander then dip them in Tabasco sauce 

Snelly.
		
Click to expand...

how much does that cost you these days?


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

This thread has really gone off the rails hasn't it lol


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## bobmac (Nov 23, 2011)

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Snelly................


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

Well thats typical .... I slink off for a quick 18 holes this afternoon and 5 pages of been added ....  how will I ever get round to disagreeing with all those postings.


Still, not to many high handicappers out there today

No Scotsmen wearing denim jeans

No one in the car park in their underpants

Not a woman to be seen

No juniors


Not held up by anyone

No one in white trousers (on or off)

No American millionairs

No need to wear a jumper - try that one in Scotland!


Chris


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

Oh dear.... Round 2


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			Oh dear.... Round 2
		
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Popcorn?


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Caviar and fois gras if you don't mind.


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Caviar and fois gras if you don't mind.
		
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And you're from Wigan????
I thought you had KFRP up there????


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## AmandaJR (Nov 23, 2011)

Can someone summarise the thread so far or should I start at the 1st page 

What about Lady Captains??? Aaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

I know I'm going to regret this, but what is KFRP. Maybe it's a generational thing.


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			I know I'm going to regret this, but what is KFRP. Maybe it's a generational thing.
		
Click to expand...

Kentucky Fried Racing Pigeon


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

AmandaJR said:



			What about Lady Captains??
		
Click to expand...



You will find, young lady, that there are Captains of the ladies section, but ineviatably, very few lady Captains of the golf club! Although that lovely Harriet Harman woman (dont we all love her?) did introduce equality legislation that will possibly change that situation soon 

Chris


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Kentucky Fried Racing Pigeon
		
Click to expand...

We like to refer to it as "breast of wood pidgeon, served with a red wine jus on a bed of hand picked Hungarian rocket". If you don't mind.


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			We like to refer to it as "breast of wood pidgeon, served with a red wine jus on a bed of hand picked Hungarian rocket". If you don't mind.
		
Click to expand...

And the Whippet?


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			And the Whippet?
		
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He just gets dog food. What do you think we are. Southerners.


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## bobmac (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			And the Whippet?
		
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They have that with tempura batter and chips


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## AmandaJR (Nov 23, 2011)

chrisd said:



			You will find, young lady, that there are Captains of the ladies section, but ineviatably, very few lady Captains of the golf club! Although that lovely Harriet Harman woman (dont we all love her?) did introduce equality legislation that will possibly change that situation soon 

Chris
		
Click to expand...

Young - you charmer you 

TBH I had never drawn a distinction between the Mens and Ladies Captains and saw them both as the captain of their respective section within the club and, therefore, equal. I stand corrected...perhaps indicative of my newness to the golf world and all its traditions and the calibre of the 2 clubs I've been a member at. I rather think I'd like to stay naive judging by the 22 pages this subject has spawned !


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## Scouser (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			We like to refer to it as "breast of wood pidgeon, served with a red wine jus on a bed of hand picked Hungarian rocket". If you don't mind.
		
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Having worked in Wigan for a year that has to be Pidgeon PIE!


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

If you alter your posts per page settings you can knock it down to 11 pages. It's much easier to read then.


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Having worked in Wigan for a year that has to be Pidgeon PIE!
		
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Would you care to inform everyone what a Wigan kebab is. Or my favourite, the meat n' prater barm.


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

AmandaJR said:



			Young - you charmer you 

TBH I had never drawn a distinction between the Mens and Ladies Captains and saw them both as the captain of their respective section within the club and, therefore, equal. I stand corrected...perhaps indicative of my newness to the golf world and all its traditions and the calibre of the 2 clubs I've been a member at. I rather think I'd like to stay naive judging by the 22 pages this subject has spawned !
		
Click to expand...


You have been here too long to stay nieve Amanda. Most clubs have a Veterans Captain, a Junior Captain, a Ladies Captain but the Captain of the Club is almost inveriably The Mens Captain.


At the risk of more fanatical postings from the "how very dare they society" our club only voted a few years ago to allow photos of past Lady Captains to be displayed where the Captains (always men) photo's go back to when Leftie was a boy!

It was suggested that the Lady Captains collective photo's be displayed over the fireplace to keep the young children away from the fire.


Chris


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## richart (Nov 23, 2011)

We have pictures of the current mens and ladies Captains over the bar. Best place as at least everyone recognises them.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 23, 2011)

chrisd said:



			You have been here too long to stay nieve Amanda. Most clubs have a Veterans Captain, a Junior Captain, a Ladies Captain but the Captain of the Club is almost inveriably The Mens Captain.


At the risk of more fanatical postings from the "how very dare they society" our club only voted a few years ago to allow photos of past Lady Captains to be displayed where the Captains (always men) photo's go back to when Leftie was a boy!

It was suggested that the Lady Captains collective photo's be displayed over the fireplace to keep the young children away from the fire.


Chris
		
Click to expand...

1st club I played at not even an honours board for captains and current one has boards side by side (no photos) for Mens, Ladies, Junior and Senior Captains. Doesn't appear to be a distinction and an overall Club Captain. I love this sport with a passion but less so some of the archaic attitudes so try to keep remote (naive??) from them as far as possible - hence declining twice to be Vice/Captain of the ladies section...


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## AmandaJR (Nov 23, 2011)

I made it reach page 23 - get in


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## Scouser (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Would you care to inform everyone what a Wigan kebab is. Or my favourite, the meat n' prater barm.
		
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Its the fact u lot eat baba's heads ..........................


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Its the fact u lot eat baba's heads ..........................
		
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Please. It's babbys'yeds.


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## Scouser (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Please. It's babbys'yeds.
		
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Not in a scouse accent it aint.....and how can any one walk into a chip shop and ask for a smack!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2011)

We keep a picture of the Lady Captain on the first and 9th tee.  It speeds up play..


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2011)

richart said:



			We have pictures of the current mens and ladies Captains over the bar. Best place as at least everyone recognises them.

Click to expand...

I can recognise our captain, he is the one ahead of me on the course.


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## SatchFan (Nov 23, 2011)

In a bid to restore equality our Ladies Captain grew a moustache.


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Not in a scouse accent it aint.....and how can any one walk into a chip shop and ask for a smack!
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate that in scouseland it means something else. How about scraps and pey wet with a wooden fork. When I was a kid that was a penny.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2011)

SatchFan said:



			In a bid to restore equality our Ladies Captain grew a moustache.
		
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Ah! Maybe it was her wearing underpants in the back of the van then?


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## TheJezster (Nov 23, 2011)

What a great thread, and some really interesting points of view too, some perhaps a little too aggressive and argumentative and some playfully reeling others in...

Post of the thread for me was Snelly's post of the chav with can in hand.  Brilliant stuff, I salute you sir, a genuine laugh out loud moment that.

As for me, being new to golf I suppose I side somewhere in the middle.  I think we can be too quick to do away with tradition in this Country sometimes, but on the other side of the coin, some traditions are ridiculous and need casting to the annals of history asap.

No jeans on the course, absolutely.  To me it just doesnt look right, so no issues there.  Cargo trousers (smart) and cargo shorts are fine, however.  In fact, they are more handy than a starched pair of slacks, with the extra pocket room etc.  As long as you look respectable on the course there shouldnt be a problem.  Also, too much is made of tucking your shirt in.  Thats up to the individual, and I would rather see a rotund stomach hidden by an untucked shirt rather than bursting over his trousers..

In the bar, again a different story.  It doesnt matter what you wear as long as it's presentable, so again jeans should be allowed, along with most items of clothing.  I draw the line at vests or singlets though and indeed football tops.  Personally I would allow classic international rugby tops, but thats just me.

I would rather someone wasnt sat at the bar in a pair of speedo's on a hot summers day too, so would suggest nothing shorter than a standard pair of cargo shorts be allowed in the bar (ie, no football shorts or hot pants)  oh, unless of course SHE's 22 years old and racked up and slim.  Again just my taste ;-)

I've not experienced an evening function yet, and whilst I wouldnt mind a jacket and shirt, I probably wouldnt wear a tie.  Standard office dress (for me) of smart jeans, shirt, jacket and shoes I would suggest be ok for this, unless it's a specific black tie event.

Golf clubs have not been anywhere as near as snooty as I expected, which has been a pleasant surprise, but I also wouldnt want it turning into a dole queue either, which in fairness there is no reason to suggest it would.

Good thread though, I like it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2011)

GB72 said:



			I can recognise our captain, he is the one ahead of me on the course.
		
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Quality.

We have the picture of the current officers of the club including lady and mens captain on display as you enter the bar. The old pictures line the wall from the locker room to the bar and there are some fella on there that would have been right up Snelly's street.

I ducked out in work around the time of the guy in pants in the car park thanks to all the big chiefs appearing and not thinking it a wise career move to be caught surfing at that particular juncture. Our club is against anyone changing in the car park but week in week out the same faces that go out first and hold the course up (they've been mentioned on here before) refuse to use the locker room even though it is open from 7.00am and so plenty early enough. They then change back in the car park after and never set foot in the clubhouse. To be honest if it wasn't for them paying 7 day membership into the kitty we could do without them. Perhaps I'm just grumpy or turning into mini-me Snelly but I think members should use the facitilies to change.

As for ladies captains, ours is usually seen and not heard and runs the female section as a mini social club. They tend to meet Tuesday and Thursday AM and so I rarely have to worry about it. They do play after the booked times in club comps but I've usually hacked my first nine by the time they tee off and drowned my sorrows in diet coke by the time they get in.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 23, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Popcorn?
		
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DoNt mind if I do mr smiffy


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## Scouser (Nov 23, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			I appreciate that in scouseland it means something else. How about scraps and pey wet with a wooden fork. When I was a kid that was a penny.
		
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How can you eat pey wet with a fork ....isntt it one of a wiganers 5 a day.....(this is only ever so slightly off topic)


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## SatchFan (Nov 23, 2011)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! Maybe it was her wearing underpants in the back of the van then?
		
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Possibly. I did notice some lacy frills round the ankles.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 23, 2011)

SatchFan said:



			In a bid to restore equality our Ladies Captain grew a moustache.
		
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Good on her - Movember should be open to us all


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## TheJezster (Nov 23, 2011)

AmandaJR said:



			Good on her - Movember should be open to us all 

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You've got Fannyuary!!!


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## stevie_r (Nov 23, 2011)

TheJezster said:



			Personally I would allow classic international rugby tops, but thats just me.

Standard office dress (for me) of smart jeans, shirt, jacket and shoes I would suggest be ok for this, unless it's a specific black tie event.

but I also wouldnt want it turning into a dole queue either, which in fairness there is no reason to suggest it would.
		
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Pal you come across as a bit of a snob to be perfectly honest.

People of all professions (and indeed differing social classes) occasionally find themselves out of work for reasons beyond their control.  Your inferred comment that unemployment is solely the preserve of the working class and in particular the ned is ludicrous, pompous and totally out of order.

And by the way, Jacket, Jeans, shoes and shirt is never a good look - it smacks of a stockbroker trying to look trendy on his day off.

Rant over


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## TheJezster (Nov 23, 2011)

Not too strong on humour then stevie?  lol


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## stevie_r (Nov 23, 2011)

TheJezster said:



			Not too strong on humour then stevie?  lol
		
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Love humour, 100% certain though that you weren't attempting to be numerous


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2011)

Personally I wouldn't want my golf club going too far down the casual path. We don't allow denim or any description or trainers and I like that. I guess it boild down to horses for courses but I like my club feel like a golf club and not a glorified pub. Yes we have sky sports etc but there is a different air of decorum in a clubhouse than a pub and I think a degree of that comes from not relaxing the rules too much


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## TheJezster (Nov 23, 2011)

Dont worry about it then.  humerous other occasions for you ;-)


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## sev112 (Nov 23, 2011)

Now i like a bit of "traditionalism" (actually i dont but it spoils the post) and i also like a bit of "Modernism"  - but which do i like the best ... only one way to find out .... FIGHT

Forget Old Farts and Whippersnappers, what we need is a Tradiotionalists vs Modernists match !!  Or maybe a return match  - one at each kind of club.  The Modernists would have to agree to abide by the "rules and traditions" of teh posh club, and the traditionalists would have to agree to relax their dress code a bit and engage with some of the lower classes  ...


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 23, 2011)

Cargo trousers (smart) and cargo shorts are fine
		
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No sir, no they are not, not in my book, not on the golf course.


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## TheJezster (Nov 23, 2011)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No sir, no they are not, not in my book, not on the golf course.
		
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See, this is where it's a good debate. Not everyone has the same opinion.  Why not in your opinion though?  They are just as smart as slacks and more comfortable and definitely more useful.  It's what I wear, and I look smart on course.

To be clear I'm not talking about the baggy camouflage combats here, I'd agree with you on that front.  I have a beige and khaki pair.


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## USER1999 (Nov 23, 2011)

Combats, smart? Jeans, smart? I think not.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			Combats, smart? Jeans, smart? I think not.
		
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I agree. Where do you draw the line. One persons interpreation is a world away from anothers as to what consitutes smart or otherwise as this thread has shown.


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## Iaing (Nov 23, 2011)

So chaps, am I correct in assuming that if the Captain wanted to tee off first but was wearing jeans,  everyone here would be in agreement that he should be told to get stuffed?


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2011)

What a lot of people forget is that members see the rules are there to be broken and the bounderies are always pushed. If you say cargo's are ok but some makes are not, then there will be people who will always overstep the mark and wear the wrong ones.  If you say jeans are ok so long as they are smart, someone will have ones that are frayed or holed and will argue that they are the hight of fashion and cost Â£150. 

We had our presentation night last week and it's generally recognised that smart casual for men with a tie is the minimum but there were one or two there tieless and a couple with shirts out and no jackets- ok by me, you may say, but the smart/ casual with ties is what the members want at that event but, as I say, the bounderies are always pushed. In fact it can work from the reverse, a player in cargo trousers with a fashionable shirt, not tucked in and no socks, can look much smarter than the guy that gets his cream chino's out of his locker that havn't seen Persil since 2007.

 My experience is that when making rules you always assume that the worse case scenario will happen and legislate against that, because, for sure, some will always fall below that standard. I know a couple of very nice private clubs near by where you will see people in the bar will cargo's halfway down their shins, flip flops and collarless shirt and there clubs attitude is that the members are drinking more and everybody is friendly and happy - they dress more traditionally on the course and if they are happy, who are we to judge? Would I join there? Yes I might - the courses are good but all the time that my place has a stricter dress code I am still happy as I am never going to overstep the mark so I wouldn't leave my place just for a more casually dressed drink. Our dress code is pretty traditional anyway but I have said in committee that some of the code is not going to attract younger people to evening functions and the fact that some events get cancelled suggest that I am right.


Things do change but change can be painfully slow. My final point is though - if the changes become a new tradition, I will still support that tradition.



Chris


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2011)

We have a spikes bar where you can be a little more relaxed in your dress and a Lounge bar where golfing wear (not golf shoes) is OK in the day but smart casual is required after 6:30 (Trousers and shirt, tie and jacket optional).

Everone seems happy with this.


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## Smiffy (Nov 24, 2011)

Over the past two years, I have been lucky enough to have been invited to a couple of charity days at Bearwood Lakes (thanks Paul!). Dress code for the evenings celebrations has been "smart casual". It was nice not to have to wear a collar and tie, a smart pair of trousers/chinos and an open necked, collared shirt were order of the day.  Some guys still took it upon themselves to come dressed up in suits and ties etc. but it was their choice. The ladies still looked on it as an opportunity to dress up. Nice.
When we go to play at Cooden each year on our forum meet, the dress code for the evening meal is collar and tie. We know that before we go, so we wear it. It is their "tradition"...we want to play their course, we want to enjoy their hospitality, we abide by their "rules". If you don't like it, don't attend. Simples.
So I am prepared to "give and take" to a certain extent.
But I cannot abide seeing jeans worn on a golf course. Or cargo shorts. Or T-shirts. Or shirts un-tucked. I hate all of these things with a passion _*when seen in the vicinity of a golf course.*_
And if I were a member of a club that decided to relax it's dress code and start allowing these things to go on, I'd leave. Again, simples. 
I'm not a snob. Far from it. When I am away from the course I live, eat and breathe in jeans and t shirts.
But don't take away the very fabric of the game, the things that attracted me to golf in the first place.


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## pokerjoke (Nov 24, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Over the past two years, I have been lucky enough to have been invited to a couple of charity days at Bearwood Lakes (thanks Paul!). Dress code for the evenings celebrations has been "smart casual". It was nice not to have to wear a collar and tie, a smart pair of trousers/chinos and an open necked, collared shirt were order of the day.  Some guys still took it upon themselves to come dressed up in suits and ties etc. but it was their choice. The ladies still looked on it as an opportunity to dress up. Nice.
When we go to play at Cooden each year on our forum meet, the dress code for the evening meal is collar and tie. We know that before we go, so we wear it. It is their "tradition"...we want to play their course, we want to enjoy their hospitality, we abide by their "rules". If you don't like it, don't attend. Simples.
So I am prepared to "give and take" to a certain extent.
But I cannot abide seeing jeans worn on a golf course. Or cargo shorts. Or T-shirts. Or shirts un-tucked. I hate all of these things with a passion _*when seen in the vicinity of a golf course.*_
And if I were a member of a club that decided to relax it's dress code and start allowing these things to go on, I'd leave. Again, simples. 
I'm not a snob. Far from it. When I am away from the course I live, eat and breathe in jeans and t shirts.
But don't take away the very fabric of the game, the things that attracted me to golf in the first place.
		
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Agreed.
Im all for traditions.


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## MashieNiblick (Nov 24, 2011)

Well this is turning into a mega thread. Been meaning to contribute for ages but the discussion kept moving on and it was fun reading the other posts which covered just about every angle.

On the original issue of Captains having privileges and perks, I'm not against it and think it is reasonable acknowledgement of the work they do and a nice little expression of respect from the other members. It's mostly pretty harmless. The trouble was in the 2 examples originally cited - of a Captain jumping to the head of a long queue and a pushing a 4-ball front of a 2-ball - it just seemed high handed and a bit of an abuse of the privilege. The Captain shouldn't be using his privileges to the detriment of other members' enjoyment. 

On the wider subject of dress codes, traditional clubs etc I think at the heart of it is that we all have different views and expectations. I don't like seeing jeans and tee shirts on the golf course but I don't want to have to put on a jacket and tie just to get a drink in the bar after a certain time. Clubs are changing and there are generally clubs to suit each person's taste. That's good. There was a time when golf was very exclusive and snobby and I don't think most people want to see a return to those days. On the other hand there are some traditional aspects of the game such as a certain standard of dress and behaviour that help make it what it is. That doesn't necessarily make it exclusve - you can buy a pair of Strombergs for less than a pair of Levis and manners cost nothing.


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm not a snob. Far from it. When I am away from the course I live, eat and breathe in jeans and t shirts.
		
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I always said it was wrong to let the "ordinary"  folk play golf


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

bobmac said:



			I always said it was wrong to let the "ordinary" folk play golf  

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Such wise words Bob, such wise words!


Chris


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Such wise words Bob, such wise words!


Chris
		
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Especially for someone of my tender years


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## stevie_r (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't like jeans on the course and certainly wouldn't wear them to play in myself. TBH I don't think they would be particularly practical anyway - especially given the weather we've had up here this year.  If a course is wettish (like both of mine) I'll wear walking trousers, berghaus, craghopper or the like.  Allow plenty of movement and if you get a quick shower they can dry in no time - unlike denim.  During the daytime though I don't see any problem with jeans in the clubhouse.


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

MashieNiblick said:



			Well this is turning into a mega thread. Been meaning to contribute for ages but the discussion kept moving on and it was fun reading the other posts which covered just about every angle.

On the original issue of Captains having privileges and perks, I'm not against it and think it is reasonable acknowledgement of the work they do and a nice little expression of respect from the other members. It's mostly pretty harmless. The trouble was in the 2 examples originally cited - of a Captain jumping to the head of a long queue and a pushing a 4-ball front of a 2-ball - it just seemed high handed and a bit of an abuse of the privilege. The Captain shouldn't be using his privileges to the detriment of other members' enjoyment. 

On the wider subject of dress codes, traditional clubs etc I think at the heart of it is that we all have different views and expectations. I don't like seeing jeans and tee shirts on the golf course but I don't want to have to put on a jacket and tie just to get a drink in the bar after a certain time. Clubs are changing and there are generally clubs to suit each person's taste. That's good. There was a time when golf was very exclusive and snobby and I don't think most people want to see a return to those days. On the other hand there are some traditional aspects of the game such as a certain standard of dress and behaviour that help make it what it is. That doesn't necessarily make it exclusve - you can buy a pair of Strombergs for less than a pair of Levis and manners cost nothing.
		
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It seems to me Mashie that the differing opinion only come about from the guys who join a club that have particular rules or traditions that they were probably made well aware of when they applied to join but wern't willing to abide by them after membership had been granted, or for some reason didn't think that they applied to them. It's either that, or they are in clubs where those rules don't exist so they proudly announce that if they did exist they would ignore them - never going to be called on to prove that are they?

I would just wonder what would happen in reality if, say, Thecraw was on the tee and the Captain wandered along and very nicely said that the rules had been changed recently and he had priority on the tee and wished to exercise that right. I lay a pound to a penny he would meekly stand aside and all the bluff and bluster would quickly be forgotten! I also wonder if he refused, and he was disciplined by the club, and he was expelled, what would be the case if he then joined a club with this rule? I know that no club would go this far but it's ealy at work and little activity and it sets the mind going - yes, even at my age!


Chris


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2011)

Is there anyone about who feels like setting up a poll? Traditional on and off the course, traditional on, but casual off, casual on and off the course. It might be interesting to see the results. 
Also, back OT, if the captain has the right at the first tee, and decided politely to take that right, I wouldn't have a problem. If he was a dick about it, then he would get a mouthful, in front of the usual group of captains cronies. I would still let them play though. I like the fact that traditions still exist.. In my childhood sport, rugby league, there was a tradition that you never questioned the referee.. Ever.. You also had to refer to him as Mr at all times. It's still fantastic to watch rugby (both codes), witness the controlled aggression, and never once see disrespect on the field. They do this because it was ingrained in them as kids. Compare that with football.. A sport in which no character defect is frowned upon. Look how prevalent cheating has become just because it wasn't frowned upon when it first started happening. Some traditions are necessary and good for the game, and if you think a certain one isn't, then get it changed democratically.


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Is there anyone about who feels like setting up a poll? Traditional on and off the course, traditional on, but casual off, casual on and off the course. It might be interesting to see the results. 
Also, back OT, if the captain has the right at the first tee, and decided politely to take that right, I wouldn't have a problem. If he was a dick about it, then he would get a mouthful, in front of the usual group of captains cronies. I would still let them play though. I like the fact that traditions still exist.. In my childhood sport, rugby league, there was a tradition that you never questioned the referee.. Ever.. You also had to refer to him as Mr at all times. It's still fantastic to watch rugby (both codes), witness the controlled aggression, and never once see disrespect on the field. They do this because it was ingrained in them as kids. Compare that with football.. A sport in which no character defect is frowned upon. Look how prevalent cheating has become just because it wasn't frowned upon when it first started happening. Some traditions are necessary and good for the game, and if you think a certain one isn't, then get it changed democratically.
		
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The only trouble with the poll is that we would vote for what we want at our clubs, rather than what I think the nub of this argument is - are you prepared to adhere to the rules and traditions of your club as they are now? and, do you think that these traditions apply to everyone but you?



Chris


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## Imurg (Nov 24, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I would just wonder what would happen in reality if, say, Thecraw was on the tee and the Captain wandered along and very nicely said that the rules had been changed recently and he had priority on the tee and wished to exercise that right. I lay a pound to a penny he would meekly stand aside and all the bluff and bluster would quickly be forgotten! 
Chris
		
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I think to be fair,Chris, the vast majority  - in the situation you've painted - would stand aside. The whole (initial) argument was the way in which Greg's Captain did what he did.
If this rule is in place at a club - no idea at mine and don't even know the Captain's name - then I'd expect the Captain to have achieved a higher level of manners than shown to Greg. Blustering onto the tee, demanding to play through just isn't fair - tradition or not. If the Captain has the Member's interests at heart surely he should be letting others play first? If there is no rule to this effect then a polite request may still work. 
Showing courtesy to the Captain  - fine, but the Captain has to show courtesy to his Members too.

Anyway, cracking thread
Bit early but anyone for a G&T..? The Sun must be over the Yardarm somewhere...


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

Imurg said:



			I think to be fair,Chris, the vast majority - in the situation you've painted - would stand aside. The whole (initial) argument was the way in which Greg's Captain did what he did.
If this rule is in place at a club - no idea at mine and don't even know the Captain's name - then I'd expect the Captain to have achieved a higher level of manners than shown to Greg. Blustering onto the tee, demanding to play through just isn't fair - tradition or not. If the Captain has the Member's interests at heart surely he should be letting others play first? If there is no rule to this effect then a polite request may still work. 
Showing courtesy to the Captain - fine, but the Captain has to show courtesy to his Members too.

Anyway, cracking thread
Bit early but anyone for a G&T..? The Sun must be over the Yardarm somewhere...
		
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You are spot on Imurg but I was working from changes in the mood that came fairly early on, moving from the manner in which his Captain asked to a more general view of some peoples refusal to follow the tradition at all as they didn't agree with it, so it didn't apply to them stance!


Chris


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## brendy (Nov 24, 2011)

One interesting question I have been meaning to ask is whether any of the traditional guys use GPS?

Also, I wear cargo type trousers on the golf course and have done at plenty of swanky courses this past couple of years without incident.


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## Dodger (Nov 24, 2011)

Is it tradition to put your name at the end of your post too?


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## MashieNiblick (Nov 24, 2011)

Chris

I confess I wasn't aware of all the little rules and protocols and things when I joined my club but you learn as you go. If it had turned out that I didn't like these or the people who made them up and enforced them and it was clear they weren't going to change I would have to make a decision about whether to grin and bear it, try to change it or join another club.  No club is perfect but we balance the good with the not so good. We've had a few join our club with dreadful stories of how their previous place was run by self appointed cliques to the deteriment of the rest of the members. It happens and maybe when it does we need someone to stand up and say it's not right.

Not all of golf's "traditions" are good ones after all. I always love the story of how Edward VIII when Prince of Wales played at a posh club with Walter Hagen and was informed that Hagen couldn't join the Prince in the bar afterwards as he was a professional. Did the Prince accept that? No. He told the club either Walter comes in to the bar or the club no longer has "Royal" in it's name. I think the Prince and Walter had their drink together.


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## Scouser (Nov 24, 2011)

Are most clubs not members clubs that have AGMs where constitutions and rules can be voted on ... 

If so this would suggest that people are happy with the rules that are laid down and choose the clubs because it fits thir own style... Or to lazy or not bothered to do anything about it


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

MashieNiblick said:



			Chris

I confess I wasn't aware of all the little rules and protocols and things when I joined my club but you learn as you go. If it had turned out that I didn't like these or the people who made them up and enforced them and it was clear they weren't going to change I would have to make a decision about whether to grin and bear it, try to change it or join another club. No club is perfect but we balance the good with the not so good. We've had a few join our club with dreadful stories of how their previous place was run by self appointed cliques to the deteriment of the rest of the members. It happens and maybe when it does we need someone to stand up and say it's not right.

Not all of golf's "traditions" are good ones after all. I always love the story of how Edward VIII when Prince of Wales played at a posh club with Walter Hagen and was informed that Hagen couldn't join the Prince in the bar afterwards as he was a professional. Did the Prince accept that? No. He told the club either Walter comes in to the bar or the club no longer has "Royal" in it's name. I think the Prince and Walter had their drink together.
		
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Ah Mashie but at least he gave them a choice.

I wholeheartedly agree that changes need to be made sometimes and there is a mechanism for that in all clubs - my position on here is to be against the " I don't agree with the rule so I won't do it " mentality.

I have said that my own club had a number of questionable "rules" a few years back, but times have changed, faces have changed and those rules have now gone and things are run much more in a modern way, but those changes were done democratically.

Chris


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## rosecott (Nov 24, 2011)

MashieNiblick said:



			We've had a few join our club with dreadful stories of how their previous place was run by self appointed cliques to the deteriment of the rest of the members.
		
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How can they be self-appointed? Surely there is an annual opportunity at the AGM to make sure that these cliques do not self-perpetuate. It smacks a little of cowardice just to up sticks and move to another club.


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## richart (Nov 24, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Over the past two years, I have been lucky enough to have been invited to a couple of charity days at Bearwood Lakes (thanks Paul!). Dress code for the evenings celebrations has been "smart casual". It was nice not to have to wear a collar and tie, a smart pair of trousers/chinos and an open necked, collared shirt were order of the day.  Some guys still took it upon themselves to come dressed up in suits and ties etc. but it was their choice. The ladies still looked on it as an opportunity to dress up. Nice.
When we go to play at Cooden each year on our forum meet, the dress code for the evening meal is collar and tie. We know that before we go, so we wear it. It is their "tradition"...we want to play their course, we want to enjoy their hospitality, we abide by their "rules". If you don't like it, don't attend. Simples.
So I am prepared to "give and take" to a certain extent.
But I cannot abide seeing jeans worn on a golf course. Or cargo shorts. Or T-shirts. Or shirts un-tucked. I hate all of these things with a passion _*when seen in the vicinity of a golf course.*_

Click to expand...

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and our club is in the Bearwood Lakes camp. Some traditions such as jacket and tie have been removed, but others regarding jeans and t-shirts have been kept. The club is trying to satisfy the majority, not the minority. As Smiffy says if you don't like the rules find another club. I for one am happy with just the way it is, as we seem to have find the middle ground that appeals to most.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2011)

I disappear for just over a day and there's another 14 pages to read! Brilliant thread. Had a quick skim through of what I'd missed and its great to see there is some tolerance of differing opinions and choices appearing. Equally, there's the odd "I won't, I won't, I won't," probably followed by a good foot stamp. Laughed my socks off with some of them.

To those that feel respect must be earned, if someone who'd never met you came up to and treated you like ..... you'd kick off. Everyone should have a level of respect afforded to them and whether that goes up or down depends on their behaviour - no one starts at a base level and must earn every ounce.

Respecting a position, e.g. do you respect your GP, local bobby or Lord Mayor. That's a little bit tougher to quantify but reading some of the posts there appears to be some who whether through a subconcious level of insecurity or inverted snobbishness refuse to recognise the efforts of others even when the majority do.

Respecting a tradition; to me this is more about what the majority agree to, and in effect sign up to, when an individual joins an organisation/club. How someone deals with a tradition or rule they disagree with is a greater measure of the individual. I have the utmost respect for someone who follows the rule but works within the rules to change it rather than the foot stamper who basically says stuff you.

Then there's the committee that blindly enforces the rules/traditions. Sometimes a blind eye for an archaic rule or tradition until it can be changed at an AGM is the best way forward. "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of fools."


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## richart (Nov 24, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Is it tradition to put your name at the end of your post too?
		
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I like it, as it is nice to be able to refer to someone by name, rather than by an avatar.

Rich (oops forgot)


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Is it tradition to put your name at the end of your post too?
		
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Yes, but it's not a rule!


Chris


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## Snelly (Nov 24, 2011)

I only do it to annoy you Dodger. 

Kind regards,


Snelly.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 24, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Are most clubs not members clubs that have AGMs where constitutions and rules can be voted on ... 

If so this would suggest that people are happy with the rules that are laid down and choose the clubs because it fits thir own style... Or to lazy or not bothered to do anything about it
		
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Its not a rule Scouser its a tradition ..


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## Dodger (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			I only do it to annoy you Dodger. 

Kind regards,


Snelly.
		
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Thanks for clearing that up.

Dodger. (sticking with another outdated tradition)


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Dodger. (sticking with another outdated tradition)

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But at least you had the decency to follow it Dodger!


Chris


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## CMAC (Nov 24, 2011)

cant read 14 pages but I assumed all members were equal in a not-for-profit GC where there is no hierarchy but only officers of the club that were treated with greater aplomb, but no one man or lady is a greater member than anyone else.
I always give respect to these people for taking the unpaid time to run my course so I can enjoy playing the game I love.........as long as they show equal respect to their members


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## Oddsocks (Nov 24, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			To those that feel respect must be earned, if someone who'd never met you came up to and treated you like ..... you'd kick off. Everyone should have a level of respect afforded to them and whether that goes up or down depends on their behaviour - no one starts at a base level and must earn every ounce.

Then there's the committee that blindly enforces the rules/traditions. Sometimes a blind eye for an archaic rule or tradition until it can be changed at an AGM is the best way forward. "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of fools."
		
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I like these two paragraphs


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## Snelly (Nov 24, 2011)

brendy said:



			One interesting question I have been meaning to ask is whether any of the traditional guys use GPS?

Also, I wear cargo type trousers on the golf course and have done at plenty of swanky courses this past couple of years without incident.
		
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No I don't use a GPS but that is not to say that I won't in future. 

In addition, I think broomhandle putters should be banned.  Adjustable drivers are a waste of time. If you are fit and healthy then you should carry your clubs. You should shower and change into a different set of clothes to go into the bar.  The benefits of custom fitted clubs are miniscule. Everyone should have to put Â£100 on their club card in January.  White golf shoes are unacceptable.  Mixed golf is for pensioners. A round of golf should not take more than 4 hours. No-one needs more than 3 wedges. Pre-shot routines are mostly nonsense. Good golf doesn't come from buying the latest kit. Practice swings are unecessary.  Jeans are a no-no. Golf clubs should feel like special occasion places.  Cargo trousers are for tradesmen and adventurers, not golfers.

That is probably a good summation of my views but feel free to remind me of something else I have been unecessarily vexed about on this forum recently by all means! 



PS forgot that you should always take your hat off in the clubhouse or when shaking hands at the end of a match.

Warm regards,


Snelly.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 24, 2011)

Ive been a member of my club for 20 years in which time I have never heard of any of our Captains enforcing any playing rights based on their position. 

Our club professional is the official starter, he controls who goes off the 1st tee, at what time and in what order, so if anyone tried to muscle in front of me without good reason other than their club title I would always refer back to the professional.  If the starter asked me to step aside I would, but rest assured the Captain would get told what I think of him and his arrogance.


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

lobthewedge said:



			but rest assured the Captain would get told what I think of him and his arrogance.
		
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Isn't his where I came in, several days ago ??


Chris


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## lobthewedge (Nov 24, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Isn't his where I came in, several days ago ??


Chris
		
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Just giving my opinion on the matter, whats your point?

Sorry if I missed something, but I couldnt be arsed trawling through all 280 posts.


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## rosecott (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			No I don't use a GPS etc. etc.
		
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Well put Snelly.

I agree 95%.


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

lobthewedge said:



			Just giving my opinion on the matter, whats your point?

Sorry if I missed something, but I couldnt be arsed trawling through all 280 posts.
		
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I wish I could remember!

Chris


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## TheJezster (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			No I don't use a GPS but that is not to say that I won't in future. 
  Cargo trousers are for tradesmen and *adventurers*, not golfers.

Warm regards,


Snelly.
		
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Ahem, speak for yourself, i think given the state of my play and the number of trees at my course I AM an adventurer...  ;-)


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## Snelly (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			No I don't use a GPS but that is not to say that I won't in future. 

In addition, I think broomhandle putters should be banned.  Adjustable drivers are a waste of time. If you are fit and healthy then you should carry your clubs. You should shower and change into a different set of clothes to go into the bar.  The benefits of custom fitted clubs are miniscule. Everyone should have to put Â£100 on their club card in January.  White golf shoes are unacceptable.  Mixed golf is for pensioners. A round of golf should not take more than 4 hours. No-one needs more than 3 wedges. Pre-shot routines are mostly nonsense. Good golf doesn't come from buying the latest kit. Practice swings are unecessary.  Jeans are a no-no. Golf clubs should feel like special occasion places.  Cargo trousers are for tradesmen and adventurers, not golfers.

That is probably a good summation of my views but feel free to remind me of something else I have been unecessarily vexed about on this forum recently by all means! 



PS forgot that you should always take your hat off in the clubhouse or when shaking hands at the end of a match.

Warm regards,


Snelly.
		
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Damn!  Forgot to mention that golf insurance is a con!


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## bladeplayer (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Damn! Forgot to mention that golf insurance is a con!
		
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Tell that to the boyo that has to pay 70% of 400k in scotland


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## Snelly (Nov 24, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Tell that to the boyo that has to pay 70% of 400k in scotland
		
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He is without doubt the exception that proves the rule.


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## thecraw (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			He is without doubt the exception that proves the rule.
		
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Thats because he was wearing jeans on the course! Wouldn't have been found guilty if he'd had his Tweed plus fours on.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 24, 2011)

Snelly said:



			He is without doubt the exception that proves the rule.
		
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 Wonder is it tradition to sue in scotland ??


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## DaveM (Nov 24, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Over the past two years, I have been lucky enough to have been invited to a couple of charity days at Bearwood Lakes (thanks Paul!). Dress code for the evenings celebrations has been "smart casual". It was nice not to have to wear a collar and tie, a smart pair of trousers/chinos and an open necked, collared shirt were order of the day.  Some guys still took it upon themselves to come dressed up in suits and ties etc. but it was their choice. The ladies still looked on it as an opportunity to dress up. Nice.
When we go to play at Cooden each year on our forum meet, the dress code for the evening meal is collar and tie. We know that before we go, so we wear it. It is their "tradition"...we want to play their course, we want to enjoy their hospitality, we abide by their "rules". If you don't like it, don't attend. Simples.
So I am prepared to "give and take" to a certain extent.
But I cannot abide seeing jeans worn on a golf course. Or cargo shorts. Or T-shirts. Or shirts un-tucked. I hate all of these things with a passion _*when seen in the vicinity of a golf course.*_
And if I were a member of a club that decided to relax it's dress code and start allowing these things to go on, I'd leave. Again, simples. 
I'm not a snob. Far from it. When I am away from the course I live, eat and breathe in jeans and t shirts.
But don't take away the very fabric of the game, the things that attracted me to golf in the first place.
		
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Blimy old chap I agree with everything you have written. Could have been me writing it. We said Smiffy


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## Smiffy (Nov 24, 2011)

DaveM said:



			Blimy old chap I agree with everything you have written. Could have been me writing it. We said Smiffy
		
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It wasn't me. The wife nicked my log in details


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## DaveM (Nov 24, 2011)

Spoil sport!!


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## sev112 (Nov 24, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			It's still fantastic to watch rugby (both codes), witness the controlled aggression, and never once see disrespect on the field .... Look how prevalent cheating has become just because it wasn't frowned upon when it first started happening.
		
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Yeah right; i watched a game at the pinnacle of world rugby league a week back, and instead of getting up after a tackle, the tackler decided to try and break the guys leg by bending in back against his knee - seemd highly respectful to me, trying to end someone's career.  Not to mention the preponderence of neck high tackles and forearm smashes to the face. Never mind, it's tradition in rugby league - controlled agression my backside.


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## sev112 (Nov 24, 2011)

Tradition ... polo shirts and chinos ???
Golf is a working class game, to be played in working class clothes - ask old Tom Morris and his ilk


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## User20205 (Nov 24, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			To those that feel respect must be earned, if someone who'd never met you came up to and treated you like ..... you'd kick off. Everyone should have a level of respect afforded to them and whether that goes up or down depends on their behaviour - no one starts at a base level and must earn every ounce.

Respecting a position, e.g. do you respect your GP, local bobby or Lord Mayor. That's a little bit tougher to quantify but reading some of the posts there appears to be some who whether through a subconcious level of insecurity or inverted snobbishness refuse to recognise the efforts of others even when the majority do.
		
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we don't have to deal with extremes to make a point. If you believe that respect must be earned by the individual and not simply exist because of the position it doesn't mean that you punch him in the face automatically, neither does it mean you stand there and tug your forelock. Something in the middle is appropriate. 

To the same tolken the golfing world won't come crashing down if someone wears cargo trousers on the course, blue jeans maybe but not trousers with extra pockets


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Yeah right; i watched a game at the pinnacle of world rugby league a week back, and instead of getting up after a tackle, the tackler decided to try and break the guys leg by bending in back against his knee - seemd highly respectful to me, trying to end someone's career.  Not to mention the preponderence of neck high tackles and forearm smashes to the face. Never mind, it's tradition in rugby league - controlled agression my backside.
		
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I think you'll find that I was referring to a players attitude towards the referee. Fouls will always happen in an impact sport. I played at a decent level for 10 years and suffered several injuries including a fractured knee, broken nose, broken fingers etc. I never failed to respect the referee and shake hands with the opposing team after the match. Tradition , and also respect, demands it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 24, 2011)

DaveM said:



			Blimy old chap I agree with everything you have written. Could have been me writing it. We said Smiffy
		
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Another finding it very hard to argue with Smiffy's point. If you want to play other courses then you do so agreeing to theirr rules. Just because your club may be lax on enforcing no changing in the car park isn't an excuse to take that attitude somewhere else. Again probably because I'm becoming a grumpy old git I quite like to get changed into a jacket and tie from time to time and have a decent meal, good prize gving. It makes some club matches we play, days out, etc feel that little bit more special than a regular run of the mill game. Not advocating a change back to jacket and tie in the bar after 6.00 or any of those archaic rules 9although if the club still operates it when I visit I'll happily comply) but sometimes it makes a change


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2011)

therod said:



			we don't have to deal with extremes to make a point. If you believe that respect must be earned by the individual and not simply exist because of the position it doesn't mean that you punch him in the face automatically, neither does it mean you stand there and tug your forelock. Something in the middle is appropriate. 

To the same tolken the golfing world won't come crashing down if someone wears cargo trousers on the course, blue jeans maybe but not trousers with extra pockets 

Click to expand...

"Something in the middle is appropriate." Thought that was what I was alluding to. "Everyone should have a level of respect afforded to them" actually suggests its a two way street, which certainly wouldn't lead onto forelock tugging.

And I think perhaps you misunderstood "you'd kick off." Or maybe "kick off" is punch up in your neck of the woods. And where did I say I "believe respect must be earned."

You no-ie speaky any englishy??


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2011)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another finding it very hard to argue with Smiffy's point. If you want to play other courses then you do so agreeing to theirr rules. Just because your club may be lax on enforcing no changing in the car park isn't an excuse to take that attitude somewhere else. Again probably because I'm becoming a grumpy old git I quite like to get changed into a jacket and tie from time to time and have a decent meal, good prize gving. It makes some club matches we play, days out, etc feel that little bit more special than a regular run of the mill game. Not advocating a change back to jacket and tie in the bar after 6.00 or any of those archaic rules 9although if the club still operates it when I visit I'll happily comply) but sometimes it makes a change
		
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Where as I am totally the opposite in that I wear a suit ad tie every day of the week and putting one on at the weekend does not feel special, it feels like putting my work clothes back on. Don't get me wrong, I actually agree that shirt and tie should be worn for prize givings and matches, even when I played rugby we wore a shirt and tie after a match and for awards, I just do no find it special. 

So, happy to wear a shirt and tie for matches and prize givings, agree that it should be trousers and polo shirts on the course and I am even happy with a no taners rule in the club house but I would use the club house more (i.e spontaneously and not just after golf) if I could wear jeans.


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## USER1999 (Nov 24, 2011)

I still cannot see what is wrong with trainers. They are shoes, no different to any others. I can buy golf shoes that look like trainers, deck shoes that look like trainers, leather trainers that look like golf shoes, etc. I wear them in the club house, and I get, oi? You wearing trainers? What is the problem?


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## chrisd (Nov 24, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			I wear them in the club house, and I get, oi? You wearing trainers? What is the problem?
		
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The answer is whats been running through this thread from the start - the rules/tradition. If the club has a rule ie no trainers in the clubhouse as does my club, then, if you want it changed go through the correct proceedure to get it changed. Persuade your fellow members to vote for change at an AGM or an EGM but dont do what some on here promote and say I dont agree with it and so I will do it if I want or thet it doesn't apply to me.


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## DaveM (Nov 24, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			I still cannot see what is wrong with trainers. They are shoes, no different to any others. I can buy golf shoes that look like trainers, deck shoes that look like trainers, leather trainers that look like golf shoes, etc. I wear them in the club house, and I get, oi? You wearing trainers? What is the problem?
		
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Yes I agree you can get some very smart trainers. Some say all black can look better than some shoes. But you also have the other side of the coin. You must admit there are some horrendus ones. So  it makes sence to just put a blanket ban on them.


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## User20205 (Nov 25, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			You no-ie speaky any englishy??
		
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we're not far apart in our views then, I was advocating the middle ground also. 

Not really sure what you mean by the last comment. Sounded like you were being a bit of a knob


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## Smiffy (Nov 25, 2011)

Shortly after I joined Crowborough Beacon I had reason to call into the pro shop on the way over to Tunbridge Wells on a shopping expedition with the wife. As I wasn't calling into the club to play, I was wearing jeans and a casual shirt. I popped into the pro shop and a long standing member took it upon himself to follow me in.
Whilst I was there talking to Dennis (the pro) the member came up to me and said "I hope you're not intending to go out onto the course wearing _"those" _and pointed to my jeans.
It wound me up a bit but I didn't say anything. 
Whilst I agreed with his principles, I didn't agree with the way he went about it and I made a point of never playing with the old duffer whilst I was there. He wouldn't have been much fun to play with, would he?


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2011)

Serves you right, wearing jeans at your age. Do they do jeans with an elasticated waist?

I was in a similar situation a while back, jeans on at a pro shop.
Rather than upsetting the coffin dodgers, I put on my waterproof trousers which I had worn that morning and were covered in mud and no-one said a dickey bird.


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## User20205 (Nov 25, 2011)

that's the irony of a dress code. You can't play in smart jeans (I'm not advocating this) but Smiffy can play in his wee stained, see through white trousers (there's a little treat for the lady members) :lol:

We haven't even touched on trousers with rivets yet !!


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Shortly after I joined Crowborough Beacon I had reason to call into the pro shop on the way over to Tunbridge Wells on a shopping expedition with the wife. As I wasn't calling into the club to play, I was wearing jeans and a casual shirt. I popped into the pro shop and a long standing member took it upon himself to follow me in.
Whilst I was there talking to Dennis (the pro) the member came up to me and said "I hope you're not intending to go out onto the course wearing _"those" _and pointed to my jeans.
It wound me up a bit but I didn't say anything. 
Whilst I agreed with his principles, I didn't agree with the way he went about it and I made a point of never playing with the old duffer whilst I was there. He wouldn't have been much fun to play with, would he?
		
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But if you dont mind me saying, that's a stupid thing to do!


Shopping with the wife - you should know better at your age!


Chris


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## Tiger (Nov 25, 2011)

Just finished reading this 'war and peace' thread. Fascinating! Snelly Famous Five retort post of the decade!


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## Snelly (Nov 25, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			I still cannot see what is wrong with trainers. They are shoes, no different to any others. I can buy golf shoes that look like trainers, deck shoes that look like trainers, leather trainers that look like golf shoes, etc. I wear them in the club house, and I get, oi? You wearing trainers? What is the problem?
		
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The problem is very straightforward.  Trainers are for playing sport in and are inappropriate footwear for anything other than that.  If you are not playing sport, you should not be wearing trainers.  Running shoes for running, tennis shoes for tennis etc. Going in the bar at the golf club - proper shoes required.  I personally recommend RN Williams boots. 

http://www.denewear.co.uk/store/comfort-turnout/

One of my current pairs have lasted me for 13 years and I have worn them most days.  Expensive but brilliant value.

Cheers,


Snelly.


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2011)

Snelly said:



			The problem is very straightforward. Trainers are for playing sport in and are inappropriate footwear for anything other than that. If you are not playing sport, you should not be wearing trainers. Running shoes for running, tennis shoes for tennis etc. Going in the bar at the golf club - proper shoes required. I personally recommend RN Williams boots. 

http://www.denewear.co.uk/store/comfort-turnout/

One of my current pairs have lasted me for 13 years and I have worn them most days. Expensive but brilliant value.

Cheers,


Snelly.
		
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Or known, back when I was a lad, as Chelsea Boots!


That would be late 60's early 70's

Nice that you keep up with current fashion Snelly old boy!

Chris


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## Snelly (Nov 25, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Or known, back when I was a lad, as Chelsea Boots!


That would be late 60's early 70's

Nice that you keep up with current fashion Snelly old boy!

Chris
		
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They are great.  Timeless classics!  No good with a suit of course.  But then that's what Church's shoes are for. 

I also regularly wear Converse All Stars (or midlife crisis shoes as my wife lovingly calls them!) - now that is 60's and 70's!


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2011)

Snelly said:



			They are great. Timeless classics! No good with a suit of course. But then that's what Church's shoes are for. 

I also regularly wear Converse All Stars (or midlife crisis shoes as my wife lovingly calls them!) - now that is 60's and 70's!
		
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How right is she!

Just a pair of plimpsoles and you have a full hand!


Chris


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## bladeplayer (Nov 25, 2011)

Snelly said:



			The problem is very straightforward. Trainers are for playing sport in and are inappropriate footwear for anything other than that. If you are not playing sport, you should not be wearing trainers. .
		
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Snelly Snelly Snelly ,your posts are always good for a read even the ones i dont agree with , sometimes tho , i get the idea you get pretty set on the idea that you are right & everyone else is wrong , this post is either a wind up or the starch in your y fronts are leaking into your system, can you remember the last time you did something silly and had a laugh ? have you ever managed to have a laugh at yourself ? do something silly today just for the laugh of it , life is supose to be fun , from some of your posts in this i believe you could be one of the members from the forrest of arden that ruined the round for our fellow forumer and his dad (i know it wasnt you) but you whether you believe it or not you are coming across as that type of person , "if your not playing sport you should not be wearing trainers " come on dude .. go out today , break the speed limit by 1 mile , get fuel in your car and go over by 1penny & dont pay the penny, drive to a sports shop with the window down, buy a pair of trainers & tracksuit bottoms & hoody, close the curtains , turn the radio up & chill out for 5 mins , its could be fun you know . try it once ..


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Snelly Snelly Snelly ,your posts are always good for a read even the ones i dont agree with , sometimes tho , i get the idea you get pretty set on the idea that you are right & everyone else is wrong , this post is either a wind up or the starch in your y fronts are leaking into your system, can you remember the last time you did something silly and had a laugh ? have you ever managed to have a laugh at yourself ? do something silly today just for the laugh of it , life is supose to be fun , from some of your posts in this i believe you could be one of the members from the forrest of arden that ruined the round for our fellow forumer and his dad (i know it wasnt you) but you whether you believe it or not you are coming across as that type of person , "if your not playing sport you should not be wearing trainers " come on dude .. go out today , break the speed limit by 1 mile , get fuel in your car and go over by 1penny & dont pay the penny, drive to a sports shop with the window down, buy a pair of trainers & tracksuit bottoms & hoody, close the curtains , turn the radio up & chill out for 5 mins , its could be fun you know . try it once ..
		
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C'mon Blade - Snelly is quite clearly on a wind up as are a lot of my postings. It's difficult to get the humour out in a subtle way but it is there.


Chris


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## richart (Nov 25, 2011)

Quite right, get a sense of humour Snelly and learn how to have a laugh at yourself.:lol::lol::lol:


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## Snelly (Nov 25, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			sometimes tho , i get the idea you get pretty set on the idea that you are right & everyone else is wrong  ..
		
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Quite right.   You are very perceptive.

And although you find it incredible, I do indeed think that trainers are reserved for playing sport and yes, I know that no-one agrees but I don't care in the slightest.

As for going wild and having fun, I am afraid not.  Although that said, I left the top off the toothpaste this morning on purpose after a row with my wife over marmalade choice. 

Next time I am in NI (quite often as I have customers there) I will let you know and if you are anywhere near Belfast, I will meet you for a few beers and you can see for yourself just how old, boring, dull and conservative I really am...


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## DaveM (Nov 25, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Or known, back when I was a lad, as Chelsea Boots!


That would be late 60's early 70's

Nice that you keep up with current fashion Snelly old boy!

Chris
		
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Oy what do you mean? I still have 4 pairs of real "Beatle boots" with cuban heels the full works. 2 pairs are still boxed and unused. Would be worth a fortune on flee-bay.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 25, 2011)

Snelly said:



			Quite right. You are very perceptive.

And although you find it incredible, I do indeed think that trainers are reserved for playing sport and yes, I know that no-one agrees but I don't care in the slightest.

As for going wild and having fun, I am afraid not. Although that said, I left the top off the toothpaste this morning on purpose after a row with my wife over marmalade choice. 

Next time I am in NI (quite often as I have customers there) I will let you know and if you are anywhere near Belfast, I will meet you for a few beers and you can see for yourself just how old, boring, dull and conservative I really am...
		
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Im actualy from the Republic but i would love to have a drab of sherry with you old bean  ( is that phrased correctly)


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## bladeplayer (Nov 25, 2011)

chrisd said:



			C'mon Blade - Snelly is quite clearly on a wind up as are a lot of my postings. It's difficult to get the humour out in a subtle way but it is there.


Chris
		
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Phew


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 25, 2011)

Snelly said:



			The problem is very straightforward.  Trainers are for playing sport in and are inappropriate footwear for anything other than that.  If you are not playing sport, you should not be wearing trainers.  Running shoes for running, tennis shoes for tennis etc. Going in the bar at the golf club - proper shoes required.  I personally recommend RN Williams boots. 

http://www.denewear.co.uk/store/comfort-turnout/

One of my current pairs have lasted me for 13 years and I have worn them most days.  Expensive but brilliant value.

Cheers,


Snelly.
		
Click to expand...

I'm wearing a pair of these  (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0027P8G...ve=22134&creativeASIN=B0027P8GJI&linkCode=asn) right now, but am letting the side down coz I'm wearing them with jeans..... and I will be dropping into the clubhouse later in same said dress.


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## DaveM (Nov 25, 2011)

If you want boots this is the place.

http://www.beatwear.co.uk/acatalog/Boots.html


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2011)

To think that I only posted on this thread to get my posting status up to Tour Winner!



Chris


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## DaveM (Nov 25, 2011)

chrisd said:



			To think that I only posted on this thread to get my posting status up to Tour Winner!



Chris
		
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Et tu brutus...


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## Dodger (Nov 25, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Snelly Snelly Snelly ,your posts are always good for a read even the ones i dont agree with , sometimes tho , i get the idea you get pretty set on the idea that you are right & everyone else is wrong , this post is either a wind up or the starch in your y fronts are leaking into your system, can you remember the last time you did something silly and had a laugh ? have you ever managed to have a laugh at yourself ? do something silly today just for the laugh of it , life is supose to be fun , from some of your posts in this i believe you could be one of the members from the forrest of arden that ruined the round for our fellow forumer and his dad (i know it wasnt you) but you whether you believe it or not you are coming across as that type of person , "if your not playing sport you should not be wearing trainers " come on dude .. go out today , break the speed limit by 1 mile , get fuel in your car and go over by 1penny & dont pay the penny, drive to a sports shop with the window down, buy a pair of trainers & tracksuit bottoms & hoody, close the curtains , turn the radio up & chill out for 5 mins , its could be fun you know . try it once ..
		
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Bill,after the morning I have had you have no idea how much that post has cheered me up.

A real spit the coffee out toward the screen moment.

Genius.


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## sev112 (Nov 25, 2011)

Nice boots Snelly  - but how on earth do boots  ever get past a clubhouse dress code - what boots are aceptable and which are not  - wellys ?


In fact, one for the traditionalists  - what would your club say if turned up dressed totally in accordance with your dress code . i.e. a yellow checked jacket, a lime green shirt with collar, a piano key tie, a pink belt, drainpipe trousers and a pair of red winklepickers. 

Acceptable ?  Presumably yes.  
Just as long as they are not wearing a great pair of expensive Italian Loafers/deck shoes, a top quality cotton grandad shirt (i.e. no collar), designer beige jeans,  and a fine quality leather waist length jacket (again without collar).

I know which i woudl prefer to see  - but you all stick to your silly traditions for the sake of conforming.


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## sev112 (Nov 25, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			I never failed to respect the referee and shake hands with the opposing team after the match. Tradition , and also respect, demands it.
		
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yeah, Sepp Blatter was saying something similar out "leaving stuff on the pitch at the end of the game" quite recently .  he quite rightly got heavily chastised for that .  And the sooner various sports grow up and gets rid of instances of innapropriate violence rather than referring to the "traditions of the front row" and stamps it out teh better.


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## User20205 (Nov 25, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Acceptable ?  Presumably yes.  
Just as long as they are not wearing a great pair of expensive Italian Loafers/deck shoes, a top quality cotton grandad shirt (i.e. no collar), designer beige jeans,  and a fine quality leather waist length jacket (again without collar).

I know which i woudl prefer to see  - but you all stick to your silly traditions for the sake of conforming.



Click to expand...


I wouldn't question the dress code, I would wonder why Sonny Crocket had turned up !!


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## sev112 (Nov 25, 2011)

therod said:



			I wouldn't question the dress code, I would wonder why Sonny Crocket had turned up !!






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I thought that was a photo of Snelly


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## MadAdey (Nov 25, 2011)

Do not even start me on this one.... I got reprimanded for wearing a pair of expensive white shoes in the clubhouse by some old git in his scruffy old loafers as his are black and mine look like trainers. I also got questioned on the at the first tee as my golf shirt had no collar on it so was not a golf shirt. After much argument I took it off and showed him the TW nike logo inside it meaning it was golf clothing and that just because his Â£5 T-shirt had a collar does not make it golf clothing. I asked him would he say the same if Tiger or Ernia had turned up to play in it?


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## richart (Nov 25, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			Do not even start me on this one.... I got reprimanded for wearing a pair of expensive white shoes in the clubhouse by some old git in his scruffy old loafers as his are black and mine look like trainers. I also got questioned on the at the first tee as my golf shirt had no collar on it so was not a golf shirt. After much argument I took it off and showed him the TW nike logo inside it meaning it was golf clothing and that just because his Â£5 T-shirt had a collar does not make it golf clothing. I asked him would he say the same if Tiger or Ernia had turned up to play in it?
		
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At our course it doesn't matter what it says on a label, if your shirt does not have a collar you don't play the course.


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## MadAdey (Nov 25, 2011)

richart said:



			At our course it doesn't matter what it says on a label, if your shirt does not have a collar you don't play the course.
		
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So what your saying is that it looks better to see people in scruffy collared T-shirts rather than smart designer golf shirts without collars.


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## bluewolf (Nov 25, 2011)

sev112 said:



			yeah, Sepp Blatter was saying something similar out "leaving stuff on the pitch at the end of the game" quite recently .  he quite rightly got heavily chastised for that .  And the sooner various sports grow up and gets rid of instances of innapropriate violence rather than referring to the "traditions of the front row" and stamps it out teh better.
		
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You do seem to have a habit of replying with out of context examples don't you. As you well know, Sepp Blatter was referring to Racism on the pitch, not fouls. You will never rid Sport, especially Impact Sports of instances of aggression. These should be penalised and routinely are. If you bother to look, you will notice that RL takes a strong stance on dangerous play. It doesn't cop out like football and state that "the ref saw it and gave a free kick, so that is sufficient" Players get put on report and penalised retrospectively. Dangerous tackles have also been stigmatised (take the Welsh RU World Cup Semi Final for example). Please tell me what sports you consider to be an example to the rest? Crown Green Bowling? Tiddlywinks? People understand that in some sports there is the chance of injury, they still do them.. 
Oh, and by the way, its "the, THE, T. H. E" not "teh"....


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## sev112 (Nov 25, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			You will never rid Sport, especially Impact Sports of instances of aggression. ... Players get put on report and penalised retrospectively. Dangerous tackles have also been stigmatised (take the Welsh RU World Cup Semi Final for example).
		
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Legislate and punish as much as you want - until you get rid of the violence at the most basic individual player level then legislation will never get rid of that.  The players must all collectively "want" that .  I might have missed it, but i dont recall the "let's stamp out deliberately hurting people in rugby matches" campaign ?  Note i said "deliberately", not "accidentallY".

Some people, many people, said you will never get rid of racism in football, but a culture change is what's needed, and Blatter's recognition that he was miles off course in his personal veiws might make a signficant difference to many.


PS Thanks for the spelling help - but no doubt you hadnt worked out that in fact i can spell, i just cant TYPE 

PPS Water polo is quite a violent sport, hand ball suffers from quite a lot of broken noses, and lacrosse is just carnage.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 25, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Legislate and punish as much as you want - until you get rid of the violence at the most basic individual player level then legislation will never get rid of that. The players must all collectively "want" that . I might have missed it, but i dont recall the "let's stamp out deliberately hurting people in rugby matches" campaign ? Note i said "deliberately", not "accidentallY".

Some people, many people, said you will never get rid of racism in football, but a culture change is what's needed, and Blatter's recognition that he was miles off course in his personal veiws might make a signficant difference to many.


PS Thanks for the spelling help - but no doubt you hadnt worked out that in fact i can spell, i just cant TYPE 

PPS Water polo is quite a violent sport, hand ball suffers from quite a lot of broken noses, and lacrosse is just carnage.
		
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Interesting point on other sports but not really relevant to golf unless we're going to get of golf rage and nine iron aggresively inserted into the body and head of partners and opposition. My club is pretty relaxed about collars and providing it is a golf shirt (aka Nike mock etc) then its fine. It seems there is more concern about whether it is tucked in or not or is that just opening it up to even more division between the traditional tucked in at all times birgade and the liberal let it hang out if you like community


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## bluewolf (Nov 25, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Legislate and punish as much as you want - until you get rid of the violence at the most basic individual player level then legislation will never get rid of that.  The players must all collectively "want" that .  I might have missed it, but i dont recall the "let's stamp out deliberately hurting people in rugby matches" campaign ?  Note i said "deliberately", not "accidentallY".

Some people, many people, said you will never get rid of racism in football, but a culture change is what's needed, and Blatter's recognition that he was miles off course in his personal veiws might make a signficant difference to many.


PS Thanks for the spelling help - but no doubt you hadnt worked out that in fact i can spell, i just cant TYPE 

PPS Water polo is quite a violent sport, hand ball suffers from quite a lot of broken noses, and lacrosse is just carnage.
		
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 So your upset by human aggression, for your own sake, don't turn on the news. You might have a coronary... Its a basic human character trait and is present in all of us. And please, stop comparing violence on the pitch with racism. Its a different thing entirely. Please tell me you understand that. It doesn't help your point, and in fact it makes it look like you don't understand what you are arguing for... Back on topic, aggression is present in all sports, some manage to control it better than others, but the positive benefits of sport far outweigh the negatives. Sport, when taught correctly, can have a huge positive influence on people from all walks of life.. Would it be fantastic if all players could control the aggression at all times? Hell yaeh... Do I think that will happen in my lifetime? Absolutely not..
And again, please tell me what Sport you think is a positive example to others. Which sport has a zero tolerance policy for aggression on the pitch?


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## Smiffy (Nov 26, 2011)

Who is Ernia?


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## SatchFan (Nov 26, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Who is Ernia?


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Erica's little partner.


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## richart (Nov 26, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			So what your saying is that it looks better to see people in scruffy collared T-shirts rather than smart designer golf shirts without collars.
		
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No I am saying the rules of our club say your must have a collar on your shirt. Think you will find this is a fairly standard rule at most clubs. Just because something is 'designer' doesn't mean it meets golf club rules.


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## sev112 (Nov 26, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			So your upset by human aggression, for your own sake, don't turn on the news. You might have a coronary... Its a basic human character trait and is present in all of us. And please, stop comparing violence on the pitch with racism. Its a different thing entirely. Please tell me you understand that. It doesn't help your point, and in fact it makes it look like you don't understand what you are arguing for... Back on topic, aggression is present in all sports, some manage to control it better than others, but the positive benefits of sport far outweigh the negatives. Sport, when taught correctly, can have a huge positive influence on people from all walks of life.. Would it be fantastic if all players could control the aggression at all times? Hell yaeh... Do I think that will happen in my lifetime? Absolutely not..
And again, please tell me what Sport you think is a positive example to others. Which sport has a zero tolerance policy for aggression on the pitch?
		
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We might have to disagree on this this, because you think i don't understand you, and i think you are not listening to my points.

You moan about me equating racism to agression in sport (which i didnt) and then you compare nice acceptable aggression in sport with the mindless violence, murder and rapes that are on the news ...???

Ah yes, the positive benefits of aggressive rugby players ... would that be going round town centres with their rude bits hanging out singing extremely uncouth songs and the like  - of course, i am exaggerating cos you'd never see a professional rugby player do anything like that 

Have a nice day


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## bluewolf (Nov 26, 2011)

Aaaaaaahhhhh. Now I get it. You have a personal issue with rugby players. You are right on one thing though. We are going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to hear your personal sporting preference though (genuinely). Which sport has managed to sufficiently control it's players to your liking.


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## sev112 (Nov 26, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Aaaaaaahhhhh. Now I get it. You have a personal issue with rugby players. You are right on one thing though. We are going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to hear your personal sporting preference though (genuinely). Which sport has managed to sufficiently control it's players to your liking.
		
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Ah but there you would be jumping to conclusions and being wrong again, bearing in mind i played and captained rugby for quite a few years.  Even back then i had an issue with individuals being more than just a little bit aggressive.


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## bluewolf (Nov 26, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Ah but there you would be jumping to conclusions and being wrong again, bearing in mind i played and captained rugby for quite a few years.  Even back then i had an issue with individuals being more than just a little bit aggressive.
		
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So you did/do have a personal issue with rugby players. Not wrong then. Look mate, I don't know your backstory, and to be honest, I don't really care. I made a point that some traditions are good and that those same traditions are beneficial to those who play the game. You jumped up and down and stated that whole sports should be discounted from consideration due to isolated incidents within those sports. You still haven't answered my question regarding which sports should be viewed as an example to others and have instead given me a short list of other sports which also contain violent incidents. Do you believe that all sports which are played at a high tempo, with (usually) controlled aggression should be banned. Or do you accept that occasionally people will overstep the boundary. And please don't list instances such as groups of rugby players getting wasted and wondering round with their tackle hanging out. You don't have to be a rugby player to do that. In fact, I think it was raised earlier in this thread as an example of something that golfers occasionally do if they don't make it past the ladies tee.


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## USER1999 (Nov 26, 2011)

I have never, ever, seen a tiddly winks player behaving in a way that can possibly be interpreted as any thing other than the utmost decorum.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 26, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Ah but there you would be jumping to conclusions and being wrong again, bearing in mind i played and captained rugby for quite a few years. Even back then i had an issue with individuals being more than just a little bit aggressive.
		
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bluewolf said:



			So you did/do have a personal issue with rugby players. Not wrong then. Look mate, I don't know your backstory, and to be honest, I don't really care. I made a point that some traditions are good and that those same traditions are beneficial to those who play the game. You jumped up and down and stated that whole sports should be discounted from consideration due to isolated incidents within those sports. You still haven't answered my question regarding which sports should be viewed as an example to others and have instead given me a short list of other sports which also contain violent incidents. Do you believe that all sports which are played at a high tempo, with (usually) controlled aggression should be banned. Or do you accept that occasionally people will overstep the boundary. And please don't list instances such as groups of rugby players getting wasted and wondering round with their tackle hanging out. You don't have to be a rugby player to do that. In fact, I think it was raised earlier in this thread as an example of something that golfers occasionally do if they don't make it past the ladies tee.
		
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Finding it hard to see where this rugby/sports agression tangent is going in connection to the thread other than becoming a bit of a mexican stand off - agree to disagree guys?


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## bluewolf (Nov 26, 2011)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Finding it hard to see where this rugby/sports agression tangent is going in connection to the thread other than becoming a bit of a mexican stand off - agree to disagree guys?
		
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Agreed... If your at Woburn or the old farts game i'll buy you a pint Sev.. Mines a lemonade as I don't really drink...


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## sev112 (Nov 27, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed... If your at Woburn or the old farts game i'll buy you a pint Sev.. Mines a lemonade as I don't really drink...

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Absolutely  - no grudges held here   i find the more extreme arguments force ourselves to challenge the basis of our own views, no harm in that at all.  See you at Woburn


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed... If your at Woburn or the old farts game i'll buy you a pint Sev.. Mines a lemonade as I don't really drink...

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sev112 said:



			Absolutely - no grudges held here  i find the more extreme arguments force ourselves to challenge the basis of our own views, no harm in that at all. See you at Woburn 

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Looking forward to seeing you at Woburn too. Mines a diet Coke.


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## MadAdey (Nov 28, 2011)

richart said:



			No I am saying the rules of our club say your must have a collar on your shirt. Think you will find this is a fairly standard rule at most clubs. Just because something is 'designer' doesn't mean it meets golf club rules.
		
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I do know the standard ruling at most clubs and have always been members of private clubs all over the British isles due to being in the forces and moving around every 3 or 4 years. My point was this..... if something is produced by a golf manufacturer and is actually worn by professional golfers whilst playing on tour, then why is it not allowed at your local golf club? Would you turn round to Tiger and tell him to change his shirt or get off your course?



I am not trying to start an argument, just trying to put a point of view across on how at times golf is sa far stuck in the past. I certainly do not want to start seeing people in bleach wash denims and hob nail boots on the course but is it not about time the old guard that runs golf clubs relaxed a bit more. For gods sake my Golf club still insists you wear a jacket and tie in the dining room in the evening. I would love to bring the other half up after I have played on a Saturday afternoon for a bite to eat but getting showered and changed into a jacket and tie is a bit too much. When the days of that type of dress code is not enforced by top restaurants anymore. I have eaten in many great restaurants wearing smart jeans and a shirt with a jacket.


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2011)

Its a fair point MadAdey. It's fairly commonplace to see the Pros wearing clothes that wouldn't be allowed at some golf clubs. And don't get me started on the LPGA. Tuck your shirt in woman. Not that i'm complaining though..


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 28, 2011)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Finding it hard to see where this rugby/sports agression tangent is going in connection to the thread other than becoming a bit of a mexican stand off - agree to disagree guys?
		
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Because this thread contains an evil life force than can only surive my sucking the negativity out of feuding posters. Like a vampire.  

It's great


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			Because this thread contains an evil life force than can only surive my sucking the negativity out of feuding posters. Like a vampire.  

It's great 

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VOYEUR......


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## richart (Nov 28, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I do know the standard ruling at most clubs and have always been members of private clubs all over the British isles due to being in the forces and moving around every 3 or 4 years. My point was this..... if something is produced by a golf manufacturer and is actually worn by professional golfers whilst playing on tour, then why is it not allowed at your local golf club? Would you turn round to Tiger and tell him to change his shirt or get off your course?
View attachment 255


I am not trying to start an argument, just trying to put a point of view across on how at times golf is sa far stuck in the past. I certainly do not want to start seeing people in bleach wash denims and hob nail boots on the course but is it not about time the old guard that runs golf clubs relaxed a bit more. For gods sake my Golf club still insists you wear a jacket and tie in the dining room in the evening. I would love to bring the other half up after I have played on a Saturday afternoon for a bite to eat but getting showered and changed into a jacket and tie is a bit too much. When the days of that type of dress code is not enforced by top restaurants anymore. I have eaten in many great restaurants wearing smart jeans and a shirt with a jacket.
		
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Sorry but you tried to put words into my mouth by saying I would rather see a scruffy t-shirt than smart designer clobber without a collar.  I didn't say that, I just confirmed the rules of my club and many others. I did not give my personal opinion, as in this instance it is irrelevant. It was a comment, abide by the rules of the club or play elsewhere.

Golf manufacturers can produce what they like, doesn't make it acceptable to all clubs. Just because it has a designer label does that mean clubs should ignore their own rules ? I believe the majority of our members, and certainly the ones I have spoken to, are quite happy with the current dress code. No one has brought up changing it in the last five years AGM's.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I certainly do not want to start seeing people in bleach wash denims and hob nail boots on the course but is it not about time the old guard that runs golf clubs relaxed a bit more. QUOTE]

Sorry to be repeating something I've posted a few times before in this thread but the old guard don't run golf clubs. Or if they do its because they are allowed to by the majority of members.

If members don't like something they put in a proposal before the AGM. If its serious enough, there's nowt stopping them calling an EGM. 

Blaming the old guard is a cop out by lazy members. If you feel strongly enough about something, and have enough support amongst the members, then do something about it.
		
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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be repeating something I've posted a few times before in this thread but the old guard don't run golf clubs. Or if they do its because they are allowed to by the majority of members.

If members don't like something they put in a proposal before the AGM. If its serious enough, there's nowt stopping them calling an EGM. 

Blaming the old guard is a cop out by lazy members. If you feel strongly enough about something, and have enough support amongst the members, then do something about it.
		
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Absolutely agree Hobbit.

 The make up of committees is made up of those people who are willing to put themselves forward and then get voted in. All clubs in my opinion want young, vibrant people, with ideas and enthusiasm to stand - but - because of their commitments and, quite often, lack of interest it's often left up to people like me to stand year after year until we have just had enough and then walk away.

 We don't keep the clubs back in the dark ages though, most of the members I asked, when I last did the dress code, absolutely didn't want it changed. In fact, when the turtle neck shirts that Tiger and many pros started to wear 3 or 4 years ago came out, it was the 30 to 40 year olds that wanted them banned and us oldens fought off a quite ferocious battle to allow them as we realised visitors and societies would turn up wearing them and we didn't see that the club would benefit from banning them.

It does worry me that us older players get the blame for all golf club ills.

Chris


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2011)

Thing is, younger members could stand for the committee, but they won't get in. Why? Because no one knows them. At my club, the guys who get on play mixed golf. You need the support of the lady members, and the seniors. You need to play 7 ish days a week, and get to know more people. A young guy who plays only on Saturdays has no chance. He would need a five year strategy, and to give up work.

Golf clubs will continue to be run by the retired, the semi retired, and the self employed, who are willing to lose money. The job doesn't demand it, but the only way to get voted in is to put yourself about.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			Thing is, younger members could stand for the committee, but they won't get in. Why? Because no one knows them. At my club, the guys who get on play mixed golf. You need the support of the lady members, and the seniors. You need to play 7 ish days a week, and get to know more people. A young guy who plays only on Saturdays has no chance. He would need a five year strategy, and to give up work.

Golf clubs will continue to be run by the retired, the semi retired, and the self employed, who are willing to lose money. The job doesn't demand it, but the only way to get voted in is to put yourself about.
		
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Got to agree 100% with Murph here. We have serious communication isues at our club and I've done some extensive work to show the benefits of social networking, using e-mail, actually updating the website etc and was quite happy to offer my time and services to serve and get it off the ground. It would have been ideal too see if the course was open, on temps, tees booked for society/comp and for giving members up to the minute news as well as promoting social events (where we could make good money but never seem to get it quite right) and giving course updates etc.

I was told that the majority of our club don't use twitter, facebook or regularly look at e-mails from their own research. How stuck in their ways are our members. I think the 21st century has passed most of them by. It also comes down to Murphs other point and your face has to fit. If not you can be as keen as mustard, have some good ideas and never get to serve. If you can't get young blood onto the committee how can you bring fresh ideas like mine (ok it may not have been 100% feasible in its current context). I even showed them some of the electronic newsletters and table top bulletins some of you kindly forwarded to me when I asked a few months back. 

We've had the AGM and the same faces get to stay where they are. Off the 9 places on various committees available the youngest person to be elected was in his late 40's and had been a member for over a decade. Can't see anything changing there very soon.


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2011)

Have to agree with Murph and Homer. My club has a core of long time members who all know each other and are stuck in their ways. They like things as they are as it suits them and see no need for change. They all vote each other in for the various positions and nothing changes and the membership are not ballotted on anything throughout the year nor are opinions sought outside of the ruling group. I have tried to explain how difficult it is for new members to integrate and put forward a number of suggestions but nothing is ever taken forward. We have some mad situations. Take the clubhouse, the club want higher takings but you can get a better and cheaper bacon roll in the half way hut that is run independently. You have people queuing on the first tee every morning but you cannot pop into the club house and get a coffee in a takeaway cup to drink whilst you are up there. There are no roll ups and all comps are in your own groups so no real way to integrate. It has taken me 4 years just to get to know enough people to guarantee a game at the weekend.  

I am now starting to get a little concerned over member levels. Last year we were down about 80 on a maximum membership of about 550 and we had to take the drastic step of putting a sign up to attract members (advanced marketing there). This year we have adds in the local paper, which is totally unheard of. a couple of groups that used to be in the club at 8.00 every weekend and were my back up option if I did not have a game have just disappeared.  

What we have is a chicken and egg situation. To instigate change we need an influx of fresh blood via new members but we are not going to get those new members unless we instigate change.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			Thing is, younger members could stand for the committee, but they won't get in. Why? Because no one knows them. At my club, the guys who get on play mixed golf. You need the support of the lady members, and the seniors. You need to play 7 ish days a week, and get to know more people. A young guy who plays only on Saturdays has no chance. He would need a five year strategy, and to give up work.

Golf clubs will continue to be run by the retired, the semi retired, and the self employed, who are willing to lose money. The job doesn't demand it, but the only way to get voted in is to put yourself about.
		
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Over half our committee work full time away from the golf club, and over half the committee are between 45 & 53, i.e. well below the average age of the members. And bearing in mind how many ladies play I'm not quite sure why you'd need their vote to carry the day. And if the average age of the club is 60 I guess that means that the seniors aren't exactly a sginificant majority. 

And yes someone has to be seen to be good enough before anyone would vote for them but hey, if someone wants it they've got to work for it. Why would someone cast their vote for an unknown quantity?

From my experience of recent AGM's the majority of younger members don't turn up anyway. Younger members talk of change but what effort do they put in to achieve it?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			And yes someone has to be seen to be good enough before anyone would vote for them but hey, if someone wants it they've got to work for it. Why would someone cast their vote for an unknown quantity?

From my experience of recent AGM's the majority of younger members don't turn up anyway. Younger members talk of change but what effort do they put in to achieve it?
		
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Sorry but I disagree. I wanted to stand and help with the communications side of things. The 2010 captain was up for it and the new one seems to like things as they are and is looking for a quiet tenure. Of those that put themselves up for nomination apart from myself (12 years membership over 2 spells and 45) were two guys in their late 30's who play every weekend and most midweek comps and are well known faces around the place. We were all there at the AGM as were a lot of the younger end of the scale. Granted a lot of the 20 somethings weren't but how realistic is it to get them to attend at any club


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			Over half our committee work full time away from the golf club, and over half the committee are between 45 & 53, i.e. well below the average age of the members. And bearing in mind how many ladies play I'm not quite sure why you'd need their vote to carry the day. And if the average age of the club is 60 I guess that means that the seniors aren't exactly a sginificant majority. 

And yes someone has to be seen to be good enough before anyone would vote for them but hey, if someone wants it they've got to work for it. Why would someone cast their vote for an unknown quantity?

From my experience of recent AGM's the majority of younger members don't turn up anyway. Younger members talk of change but what effort do they put in to achieve it?
		
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The committee need to take on board the ideas for change and encourage the younger members to follow through with them. How much of a change would it be if someone in authority did not ignore the forward thinking suggestions but instead said 'ok, you want the club to go in that direction then come and make a presentation in front of the next committee meeting and we will debate it'. Clubs can get people involved without them being in full time committee membership. Clubs should use the resources that they have and try and get others involved.


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2011)

They could, but they don't. I have three close friends who have put themselves up for election, and all would be good additions to the board/committee but they don't get voted on. Senior section, 100 votes, ladies 70 votes, you need them on board, seriously, or you won't make it. Some one who spans the ages, will get in every time.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2011)

Homer, I'd say its different things in different clubs. But at the end of the day it comes down to who actually wants change enough to vote. If people aren't willing to vote for something then they've made a choice for what they want, i.e. the status quo.


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## Dodger (Nov 28, 2011)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Got to agree 100% with Murph here. We have serious communication isues at our club and I've done some extensive work to show the benefits of social networking, using e-mail, actually updating the website etc and was quite happy to offer my time and services to serve and get it off the ground. It would have been ideal too see if the course was open, on temps, tees booked for society/comp and for giving members up to the minute news as well as promoting social events (where we could make good money but never seem to get it quite right) and giving course updates etc.

I was told that the majority of our club don't use twitter, facebook or regularly look at e-mails from their own research. How stuck in their ways are our members. I think the 21st century has passed most of them by. It also comes down to Murphs other point and your face has to fit. If not you can be as keen as mustard, have some good ideas and never get to serve. If you can't get young blood onto the committee how can you bring fresh ideas like mine (ok it may not have been 100% feasible in its current context). I even showed them some of the electronic newsletters and table top bulletins some of you kindly forwarded to me when I asked a few months back. 

We've had the AGM and the same faces get to stay where they are. Off the 9 places on various committees available the youngest person to be elected was in his late 40's and had been a member for over a decade. Can't see anything changing there very soon.
		
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I didn't realise you had joined my club Homer....apart from that are you enjoying it?

Scary parallels.


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2011)

Dodger, homer, agreement? Scary.

I'm out.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2011)

GB72 said:



			The committee need to take on board the ideas for change and encourage the younger members to follow through with them. How much of a change would it be if someone in authority did not ignore the forward thinking suggestions but instead said 'ok, you want the club to go in that direction then come and make a presentation in front of the next committee meeting and we will debate it'. Clubs can get people involved without them being in full time committee membership. Clubs should use the resources that they have and try and get others involved.
		
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We often co-opt members who have specific knowledge. We have at least 4 at present. We've had a 24 yr old do two presentations this year and taken on pretty much everything he's proposed. We've had a lot of input from 2 accountants who are club members but not on committee... the important thing is the club, first and foremost. Committee's aren't there to support fragile ego's or give people power trips.

As I said in my reply to Homer, different things in different clubs.


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## viscount17 (Nov 28, 2011)

I've served on a number of committees over the years, from school governor to neighbourhood watch. In my experience the hardest thing is to get people to put their names forward, so to then not take them up on it is plain daft.
Maybe the way forward is the quiet revolution. If you can't get elected as things stand suggest that the committee take on shadows 'to secure the future of the club'. Once there in any capacity you'll have a better chance of being elected - mind you it's head down, mouth shut until you do get in.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2011)

Belton Park GC has a tradition that is rediculous.
It is a private club in Lincolnshire with 3 loops of 9 holes. The main 18 hole course and a shorter newer 9 holes (only 30 years old).
On Thursdays, the seniors have their roll up which is fine. 8 am they're off. Crazily, also on Thursday, the Ladies have their roll up at 10 am.
Now if the seniors are allocated the newer 9 as part of their round, all hell breaks loose. Unfortunately, it's the same as the women. Nobody wants to play the new 9.
You're probably thinking thats ok.The seniors all go off the first starting at 8 followed by the ladies at 10. Sadly, some of the seniors dont want to queue on the first so go off the 10th. They then want to start on the first for their back 9 in front of the ladies  The air can turn blue sometimes.
I suggested one of them could chose a different day and have the course to themselves.
I'd have been more popular if I had suggested jeans be allowed on the golf course.


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## Dodger (Nov 28, 2011)

All clubs should issue job descriptions to committee members outlining what should be expected of them and support it with a club mission statement.

If the prospective new committee members isn't willing to sign the job description then you don't need them.....if he does sign but makes a decision that looks like it is for his own good then you refer him back to the mission statement.

Too many are in it for their own self gratification....


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			We often co-opt members who have specific knowledge. We have at least 4 at present. We've had a 24 yr old do two presentations this year and taken on pretty much everything he's proposed. We've had a lot of input from 2 accountants who are club members but not on committee... the important thing is the club, first and foremost. Committee's aren't there to support fragile ego's or give people power trips.

As I said in my reply to Homer, different things in different clubs.
		
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Not looking for a power trip. I asked a lot of forrumers a while back about how their club communicates on everything from whether it is open/on temps, to monthly news bulletins, publicising social events. Basically a full gamut on how they get the word across. Significant numbers use e-mail and have at least 95% of membership e-mail addresses on file. Many are embracing Twitter, facebook etc as a way of catching not just the youngsters but a lot of the mid age bracket (30-60) as the majority seem to have smart phones or visit these sites via a pc. 

In essence the 2009 captain thought we were missing several huge tricks and wanted to see what we could do about communicating smarter, cheaper and quicker. Sadly the staus quo has changed and we've had the power balance changed so that a lot of those serving from the top down, aren't prepared to be as open minded.

Its funny how Dodger and I (who have had more than the odd differing word) have experienced the same issues. I doubt we're isolated cases. Even with co-opting, there has to be the take up and frankly even if the club decided to go down that road, all the powerpoint presentations in the world won't drag some of the current encumbants into the 20th century


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## Tommo21 (Nov 28, 2011)

You dont need to be young to have forward ideas.


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## texastee (Nov 28, 2011)

I've been the Captain at our golf club and would never have dreamt of 'pushing-in', though it was an unwritten 'rule' to be able to do so. Was invited on a few occasions but declined. I always felt subscription paying members should have the 'right of way'. Anyway, most of them were my mates and they would have given me a hard time the following year. )


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## richart (Nov 28, 2011)

Homer you could join my club, and get straight on the committee! We have had more positions than candidates in the last two years. Captains are serving their second term, as no one wants the job. We have an active junior section, but seem to have very few members in their 20's and 30's. Those we have are not interested in joining the committee presumably because of work and family commitments. As for the rest, it might be of course that they are happy with the way the club is run, and see no need to get on the committee to change things ?

 Despite the fact that most commitee members are in their late 40's and 50's, we are still a fairly progressive club, and have recently employed a marketing manager who has paid his way by attracting new members. We have open days for men, women and juniors which are well attended. The days include coaching from the Pro, meeting the committee and playing the course. All newsletters, tee times, general news are sent to members by email.

 We do have certain traditions regarding what you can wear on the course, but casual clothes are acceptable everywhere in the clubhouse including the dining room. The rules we have suit the vast majority of our members, rather than a small minority.


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## Cobra84 (Nov 29, 2011)

texastee said:



			I've been the Captain at our golf club and would never have dreamt of 'pushing-in', though it was an unwritten 'rule' to be able to do so. Was invited on a few occasions but declined. I always felt subscription paying members should have the 'right of way'. Anyway, most of them were my mates and they would have given me a hard time the following year. )
		
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The Captain at my home club did the complete opposite just recently.  He so intended to get ahead of me and 2 others, that he decided to do that, even though we'd all hit our drives and were leaving the second tee.  The Captain came up to my friend and said to him, "we're playing through now."  

From what I know, there's no club rule giving the Captain the rights to go ahead of others.  Even if there was a rule, I had no problem with him doing that. It was just the way he did it that bothered me.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

An apology to Hobbit and Richart, but this is not a personal attack on you or your clubs. It is just the general observation at private Golf Clubs. The AGM has happened at my club recently. The same old faces re-elected and the new people to get elected onto the committee are the ones that were being discussed int he club house by the older members. Members of the committee do a lot of work for the club and it is appreciated as the club could not function without them. Problem is the general age of the committees that run golf clubs. Younger people would love to do their part for the club but do not have the time in their personal lives for the huge commitment it can be. At my club the committee are all retired or semi-retired giving them the time to fully commit to what they have volunteered to do. There is no way a 20/30 something man with a full time job, 2 kids and a wife to keep happy could get away with spending anymore time at the club or at home doing club business, it is just not gonna wash with your other half. 

At a club I was a member of a few years ago this point was bought up by younger members and also some off the older members in their 40's. What was proposed was that the golf club committee had a sub committee of people under the age of 35 that would work as a back up to the committee. They would not have the same power that the committee, but it would be a way of younger members to get a voice that could be listened to, also getting them involved will lead to them then joining the full committee at a later date. The person proposing this was in his 40's and was willing to work as chairman of this committee to make sure that these younger members where acting with the best interests of the club and also to give them some more clout when putting their findings to the committee. So what would you then have..... a group of young members who are the future of the club, that have a different perspective on things that could then bring things in front of the club committee. I thought that sounded great younger people getting to go to committee meetings and have a say without the large commitment that is involved with being a full committee member. Well as you can imagine that went down well didn't it. A majority of the members present where older as it was midweek early evening and most younger people had full time jobs to do. It was soon shot down by the older members, I think the were frightened by the thought of young fresh ideas changing the way of an old golf club. They argued at the AGM that what did young members know about running a club and they would turn the clubhouse into a rowdy bar with cheap drinks given half the chance. SO just something that I have seen personally to show the attitude of committees towards new ideas that go against the grain.


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			An apology to Hobbit and Richart, but this is not a personal attack on you or your clubs. It is just the general observation at private Golf Clubs. The AGM has happened at my club recently. The same old faces re-elected and the new people to get elected onto the committee are the ones that were being discussed int he club house by the older members. Members of the committee do a lot of work for the club and it is appreciated as the club could not function without them. Problem is the general age of the committees that run golf clubs. Younger people would love to do their part for the club but do not have the time in their personal lives for the huge commitment it can be. At my club the committee are all retired or semi-retired giving them the time to fully commit to what they have volunteered to do. There is no way a 20/30 something man with a full time job, 2 kids and a wife to keep happy could get away with spending anymore time at the club or at home doing club business, it is just not gonna wash with your other half. 

At a club I was a member of a few years ago this point was bought up by younger members and also some off the older members in their 40's. What was proposed was that the golf club committee had a sub committee of people under the age of 35 that would work as a back up to the committee. They would not have the same power that the committee, but it would be a way of younger members to get a voice that could be listened to, also getting them involved will lead to them then joining the full committee at a later date. The person proposing this was in his 40's and was willing to work as chairman of this committee to make sure that these younger members where acting with the best interests of the club and also to give them some more clout when putting their findings to the committee. So what would you then have..... a group of young members who are the future of the club, that have a different perspective on things that could then bring things in front of the club committee. I thought that sounded great younger people getting to go to committee meetings and have a say without the large commitment that is involved with being a full committee member. Well as you can imagine that went down well didn't it. A majority of the members present where older as it was midweek early evening and most younger people had full time jobs to do. It was soon shot down by the older members, I think the were frightened by the thought of young fresh ideas changing the way of an old golf club. They argued at the AGM that what did young members know about running a club and they would turn the clubhouse into a rowdy bar with cheap drinks given half the chance. SO just something that I have seen personally to show the attitude of committees towards new ideas that go against the grain.
		
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It is sad that your club acted that way but I dont think that it is representative of private clubs in general. If and when younger people stand for committee at ours, there is a likelihood that they would get on. In fact, ours would welcome an input from fresh talented people with good ideas. Yes, they do have to obtain the required vote but that is democracy at work and, I guess it means that if their faces are not seen around the club then it is less likely that they will pick up votes if "established" people stand. There are some years that we dont have a full compliment of nominees and it was the case when I first joined the committee that I was co-opted on and then stood properly the next year.

My only critism is when people stand just because they are upset about one issue, and stand, so that they have a platform to change what they dont like and therfore take the place of someone who will be interested in all the issues that come up.

Ultimately, there is no point in younger people saying that they dont do it as they dont have time and then criticising what goes on. I was the Chairman of my local football club (100+ members) at the age of 19 and am still President today aged 59 and work my life round football, golf, running my own business and my family.
Yes there are a lot of meetings and I have to juggle things around but it can be done but I did have views and wanted to get involved. 

I think the answer at any club that is reluctant to change, is to get a younger person who is willing to stand and then canvas for him/her, make sure that everyone attends the AGM and VOTE! Also, there is nothing wrong with emailing or writing in with ideas for change to the committee whenever you want as, eventually, they can't keep ignoring reasonable views - they may even welcome them!


Chris


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2011)

MadAdey, I don't see opposing views as personal attacks, and quite frankly without opposition and questions there is no progress. It is disappointing to read from several forumers that their club committe's are being run as a personal hobbies for the select few.

However, I don't subscribe to the view that all younger people haven't got the time because of young familes etc. I don't doubt that some have commitments, or spouses/partners who make greater demands on their time than others but its a conversation I've had many times with people who say they haven't got the time. I can go into my local pub a couple of hundred yards down the road any night of the week and see several younger members who've obviously got time away from their families. I dare say that scenario is repeated in several pubs and clubs in the town, not to mention the 5-a-side and other past times they have. They have the time but choose to do other things with it.

Like Chrisd I got involved with committee work at a relatively early age, and have been doing it for about 13-14 years now - Chris, you're loads older than me. Once on board it doesn't take long before your ideas get listened to... commonsense pretty much always wins the day. Once you've established credibility, getting support for new ideas does happen. It doesn't happen overnight, and that in itself takes stamina, but equally you've got to understand that the other committee member have to learn to trust what they're hearing. They don't want to hang their hat on something that will blow up in their faces.

Like Chris's club we welcome anyone, especially someone younger, putting up for committe. Our AGM saw 3 voted on unopposed, in effect no vote was necessary. Worryingly, several members are past captains which, although should be enjoying the fruits of the retirement from committee work, find themselves being asked to stay on. Perhaps even more worrying in recent times is past captains being asked if they'll be captain again if needed. So far so good but...


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

In addition to Hobbits comments

The committee needs long serving and experienced people as well as the young and keen. When new people join a committee (young and old) they invariably suggest a number of changes that they would like, often those changes have been tried before and havn't worked so you need the continuity to be able to evolve a club but not jump from one way to another when it isn't going to work. For me continuity of decision making is vital with fresh blood and ideas challenging the old dogma, then, what is right normally is obvious.


One of the concerns I have at my club is that sometimes they get together a group of former captains to advise on some difficult issues and, frankly some of the former captains are right t*sspots who were carried by the committee during their year of office!

Chris


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

I hear exactly what you are saying about young people being in the pub in their spare time, but that is probably not a vast majority of those 20/30 somethings that would like to be involved and have say at committee meetings. The ones that would like to be involved are the ones that are not down the pub every night. They are at home looking after other commitments that they have with work and family matters. I would love to put myself forward for nomination at my club. Even though I have only been a member for 18 months I have got to know a lot of the members including the committee and often stand chatting in the bar them, so I would have a chance of getting voted in. My problem is being in the armed forces. This year I have been away for nearly 6 months of it so would not be much use to a committee as it is hard to attend meetings when I'm the other side of the world.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about this but you saying that younger members would prefer to be in the pub rather than on the committee, is as bad as me saying that committee's are full of retired old narrow minded men that do not like change and run it like the Mafia. I know that is wrong in most cases just like saying young people are all sat in the pub claiming not to have the time is.


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I hear exactly what you are saying about young people being in the pub in their spare time, but that is probably not a vast majority of those 20/30 somethings that would like to be involved and have say at committee meetings. The ones that would like to be involved are the ones that are not down the pub every night. They are at home looking after other commitments that they have with work and family matters. I would love to put myself forward for nomination at my club. Even though I have only been a member for 18 months I have got to know a lot of the members including the committee and often stand chatting in the bar them, so I would have a chance of getting voted in. My problem is being in the armed forces. This year I have been away for nearly 6 months of it so would not be much use to a committee as it is hard to attend meetings when I'm the other side of the world.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about this but you saying that younger members would prefer to be in the pub rather than on the committee, is as bad as me saying that committee's are full of retired old narrow minded men that do not like change and run it like the Mafia. I know that is wrong in most cases just like saying young people are all sat in the pub claiming not to have the time is.
		
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Most clubs have a qualifying period to stand for committee, ours is 3 full years, this is so that you have gained some better knowledge of the workings of the club and also proved that you are a good member. So your 18 months wouldn't be enough for most clubs.

Chris


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## Dodger (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			All clubs should issue job descriptions to committee members outlining what should be expected of them and support it with a club mission statement.

If the prospective new committee members isn't willing to sign the job description then you don't need them.....if he does sign but makes a decision that looks like it is for his own good then you refer him back to the mission statement.

Too many are in it for their own self gratification....
		
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Can I ask if any of the forumers would not sign a job description/mission statement document if they were about to embark on a role within a club committee?


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## NWJocko (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Most clubs have a qualifying period to stand for committee, ours is 3 full years, this is so that you have gained some better knowledge of the workings of the club and also proved that you are a good member. So your 18 months wouldn't be enough for most clubs.

Chris
		
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I find that quite interesting chris, and possibly a bit silly.

With a more transient membership (arguably) than in years past, there is the possibility that new members who have moved from other clubs could add real value on a committee in terms of providing a different perspective, perhaps using their experience of what did and didn't work at their previous club and why.

Is there a definition of a "good" member?  This, and the 3 years, is what my view of not being open to change is about.  I don't mean someone coming in and attempting to change the whole direction or ethos of a particular club, it's about club's embracing new, fresh points of view.

Having a 3 year stipulation seems to say that the committee won't trust anyone until they have enough time to suss them out.


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## NWJocko (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Can I ask if any of the forumers would not sign a job description/mission statement document if they were about to embark on a role within a club committee?
		
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I have pretty much zero experience Dodger but I'm amazed they are not in place already.

Clubs are pretty much a type of business.  In my line of business, every committee that I am a voting member of has terms of reference, roles and responsibilities etc that everyone has to sign up to for Corporate governance.

I think it only makes sense.  The only downside I can see is that it might put more people off......

I would sign up to it though.


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Most clubs have a qualifying period to stand for committee, ours is 3 full years, this is so that you have gained some better knowledge of the workings of the club 
Chris
		
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Or been indoctrinated with their way of thinking 

The daft thing is that these supposed old codgers were all young once and some probably had ideas about how to change things back in the day. A 50-something now grew up in the 60s and 70s so is probably not averse to the odd radical idea. What they may well have seen is people try and fail to implement them and so are now reluctant to try again.

The real shame is if people don't try to change. As a wise man (well, Tommo  ) said further up this thread, you don't need to be young to be forward thinking. In fact all you need to do is be prepared to listen to the people with ideas and have the willing to give things a try.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Most clubs have a qualifying period to stand for committee, ours is 3 full years, this is so that you have gained some better knowledge of the workings of the club and also proved that you are a good member. So your 18 months wouldn't be enough for most clubs.

Chris
		
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I am not saying that I would be allowed to run for the committee I was just saying that the way to get voted on is to put yourself out more to get to know people in the club not just your usual 4-ball plus a couple of others. I am sort of sat on the fence with this issue that has reared it's ugly head regarding committee's. I would love to see young people on my committee, as a 25 year old compared to a 50 year old, will more often than not have a different and more modern look on issues with the club. Problem is to get in you need the votes. To get the votes you to know the older members in the club and make them realize you are not just gonna turn the club into the local municipal, with people p@@@@@d in the clubhouse wearing jeans and trainers. 

I do agree with what you and hobbit have said regarding people that just moan about the club but never do anything about it. They should look at going on the committee and help to make the changes. But then you do not need those types on the committee that just want to change the one thing that annoys them like you said. But does that idea that I saw trying to be implemented with younger members at a previous club I was at not look like a good idea to you? At my current club it is difficult to get on the committee as there is over 700 members at the club so a lot of people interested in being part of it, we are lucky like that.


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			Or been indoctrinated with their way of thinking 

The daft thing is that these supposed old codgers were all young once and some probably had ideas about how to change things back in the day. A 50-something now grew up in the 60s and 70s so is probably not averse to the odd radical idea. What they may well have seen is people try and fail to implement them and so are now reluctant to try again.

The real shame is if people don't try to change. As a wise man (well, Tommo  ) said further up this thread, you don't need to be young to be forward thinking. In fact all you need to do is be prepared to listen to the people with ideas and have the willing to give things a try.
		
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The difficulty on committee is that you are trying to please a hugely diverse number of people. What a 20 year old thinks is great, a lady member may not and what the vets section sees as necessary the under 60's wouldnt countenance. It's really often a balancing act and there are also vested interests at play. I would like to think that even at my age I was open to any suggestion from anyone and if I didn't see a problem with it I would raise the matter at committee. Most of the others would do the same, it is more often that the members wont change so the committees only run the day to day matters of the club.


Chris


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

I think it is just that people see the committee as some kind of Mafia that will not change anything unless it benefits them. This is the most perfect example of it. 

My club has quite a good social aspect to it and hold themed dining nights at the club which includes a fantastic meal plus entertainment, either a singer or a comedian. I would love to go to one like other members would. The list goes up on the clubhouse wall on a Tuesday morning normally, which seeing as all the seniors go out early morning pop into the clubhouse first thing and take all the places up booking places for others that are not there. So later in the day when people like myself go to the club it is normally too late to get a place. I work so I can't get up early enough in the morning as I am either at work or did not get in until 3 in the morning. This apparently has been brought up at committee meetings but the committee are not willing to change this system as surprise surprise it is them who are doing it.


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			But does that idea that I saw trying to be implemented with younger members at a previous club I was at not look like a good idea to you? At my current club it is difficult to get on the committee as there is over 700 members at the club so a lot of people interested in being part of it, we are lucky like that.
		
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I think that its a brilliant idea if it would work but I would think that "stick in the mud" clubs will ignore the ideas if they are minded to do so. It would be much better to get some of these guys on the main committee so that they can deal face to face with the "old boys". We have 600 + members but there are times that election to committee is under subscribed


Chris


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## USER1999 (Nov 29, 2011)

All the social events at my club are over subscribed, and yes, similar to other clubs it is the same people who go to them. But then they support the club, so why should they not be looked after? Put the sheet up at a different time, maybe they can't then go, and some newbies get on the list. Fine if they keep going to the social events, but if it is just a one off, and the normal crowd get the hump, and don't now support them, then it dies. Why chance it, when at the moment, these events are rammed.

Me, I'd like to go to the Christmas one, or may be new year. But I would not go to any others, so I don't really feel I should be trying to put my name down, as others who have supported the club through the year should in my view get first dibs.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I think that its a brilliant idea if it would work but I would think that "stick in the mud" clubs will ignore the ideas if they are minded to do so. It would be much better to get some of these guys on the main committee so that they can deal face to face with the "old boys". We have 600 + members but there are times that election to committee is under subscribed


Chris
		
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Like I said before it is difficult to get them on the committee and this would be a good way of getting them on it. They could prove themselves to the older members that they do have good ideas to take the club forward and would hopefully help them to get votes in the future. I you had this idea then the committee would have to start listening eventually though, as they would get shown up for what they are if they were dismissive towards new ideas. 

I do love being part of a 100 year old golf club with traditions, but I just feel that some of the old ways need bringing up to date a bit more. There are clubs out there struggling for members as people are struggling for money. Thankfully my club is not suffering too much. But saying that it was only a few years ago that you had a 5 year waiting list now you can join on the spot. Some people are put off joining one of the old school clubs and lean towards the new ones as they tend to have more relaxed rules at the club.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			All the social events at my club are over subscribed, and yes, similar to other clubs it is the same people who go to them. But then they support the club, so why should they not be looked after? Put the sheet up at a different time, maybe they can't then go, and some newbies get on the list. Fine if they keep going to the social events, but if it is just a one off, and the normal crowd get the hump, and don't now support them, then it dies. Why chance it, when at the moment, these events are rammed.

Me, I'd like to go to the Christmas one, or may be new year. But I would not go to any others, so I don't really feel I should be trying to put my name down, as others who have supported the club through the year should in my view get first dibs.
		
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It would be nice for the list to go up later in the day to give others a chance to put their names down. The old boys would also get a chance to put their names down just maybe not all of the same people every time. I am sure they would not get the hump over it. How could they it is a members club so everyone should have the opportunity to support the club.


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## Dodger (Nov 29, 2011)

NWJocko said:



			I have pretty much zero experience Dodger but I'm amazed they are not in place already.

Clubs are pretty much a type of business.  In my line of business, every committee that I am a voting member of has terms of reference, roles and responsibilities etc that everyone has to sign up to for Corporate governance.

I think it only makes sense.  The only downside I can see is that it might put more people off......

I would sign up to it though.
		
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Encouraging to hear.

Is the lack or reply to my question down to fear? Are people scared to say no they would not sign?

As for putting people off....if they are unwilling to sign then these people are not the ones you need on your committee.

It's a shame more people have not taken time to express their opinions to my question though......


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## bladeplayer (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Can I ask if any of the forumers would not sign a job description/mission statement document if they were about to embark on a role within a club committee?
		
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Been honest Al i dont know what a mission statement is but i would have no problem signing a job description ,


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I hear exactly what you are saying about young people being in the pub in their spare time, but that is probably not a vast majority of those 20/30 somethings that would like to be involved and have say at committee meetings. The ones that would like to be involved are the ones that are not down the pub every night. They are at home looking after other commitments that they have with work and family matters. I would love to put myself forward for nomination at my club. Even though I have only been a member for 18 months I have got to know a lot of the members including the committee and often stand chatting in the bar them, so I would have a chance of getting voted in. My problem is being in the armed forces. This year I have been away for nearly 6 months of it so would not be much use to a committee as it is hard to attend meetings when I'm the other side of the world.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about this but you saying that younger members would prefer to be in the pub rather than on the committee, is as bad as me saying that committee's are full of retired old narrow minded men that do not like change and run it like the Mafia. I know that is wrong in most cases just like saying young people are all sat in the pub claiming not to have the time is.
		
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So should I resign from the committee because I go down the pub a night or two a week? That's the Secretary, no1, no2 & no3 on Handicaps, the Treasurer & no2 on Greens. And we also go down the club too, although on occasion it can be unwelcoming late of an evening when the bar room lawyers have had a few beers.

I specifically say some not all, "I don't doubt some have commitments," and I could have also added that there are a number of older members in the pub too. Also, I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to whatever lifestyle they want. I disagree with your comment about those that are down the pub are the ones we don't want - we've 'snared' one of them recently and he's saved us Â£11k in the last month. I was making the point that they have time but choose other things.

You're right, we could split hairs on this forever and a day, though I'm not quite sure anymore what we're splitting hairs about.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Encouraging to hear.

Is the lack or reply to my question down to fear? Are people scared to say no they would not sign?

As for putting people off....if they are unwilling to sign then these people are not the ones you need on your committee.

It's a shame more people have not taken time to express their opinions to my question though......
		
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I did not realize this needed a reply to be honest. I would have thought it would be standard issue for anyone on a committee to have a guideline as to what they are expected to do in the position they hold. If you do not then boring mundane things will not get done as no one will take responsibility for them. If you want to be on the committee you should made to sign them or resign your position as anyone not wanting to sign them to me is just going to try and avoid what they are responsible for in their position.


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## Snelly (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Encouraging to hear.

Is the lack or reply to my question down to fear? Are people scared to say no they would not sign?

As for putting people off....if they are unwilling to sign then these people are not the ones you need on your committee.

It's a shame more people have not taken time to express their opinions to my question though......
		
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I would happily sign anything if I agreed with the content and I wouldn't if not.  

That said, I am generally not very good with committees as they often compromise and inevitably, that means the guy who was right (i.e. me) hasn't got his way.  This can be a very frustrating process.  The RFU, FIFA, the IOC and the FA are run by committee.  Not exactly a blueprint for success I would argue.

I am better at benign, benevolent dictatorships really....

Cheers,


Snelly.


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## harvey4banger (Nov 29, 2011)

Love playing Hayling Island GC, but when it comes to old duffers and rules, this is the place. A member grassed me up to the pro last time, for not having wide enough wheels on my trolley, Clicgear, go figure. Here are some of their club house rules, love that you can wear open leather sandles in the Solent bar, think thats where all the hip and trendy golfers hang out

[h=4]The Clubhouse[/h]

Players are requested to freshen up before using the Clubhouse. Golfing dress as defined above is permitted in the Clubhouse provided it is dry, clean and tidy. Golfing rainwear or outdoor clothing is not acceptable in the bar and restaurant areas.
Within the Clubhouse, â€˜closedâ€™ shoes are to be worn at all times.  Trainers and flip flops are not allowed.  Appropriate footwear may be worn without socks in the bar areas.  Golf shoes should not be worn on the balcony, and  are only permitted in the Professional Shop or locker rooms.
Hats and blue denim jeans are not allowed in the Clubhouse.
[h=4]Sandeman Bar and Restaurant[/h]

Smart casual wear, including golf attire, is acceptable.
Tailored shorts may be worn up to 1900.
[h=4]Solent Bar[/h]

Clean and tidy casual/golf attire is acceptable.
Footwear must be worn at all times, but trainers are not allowed.  Open leather sandals may be worn in the Solent Bar during British Summer Time.


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## Dodger (Nov 29, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Been honest Al i dont know what a mission statement is but i would have no problem signing a job description ,
		
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Bill,

A mission statement is a statement of the purpose of the Club. The mission statement should guide the actions of the organization, spell out its overall goal, provide a path, and guide decision-making. It provides the framework or context within which the clubs strategies are formulated.

Every club should have one to work within.I am busy creating mine at the moment.

If a decision is made that splits the camp and it is obviously a decision that is odds with the clubs traditions or goals then committee members should be referred back to the mission statement to remind them of the path the club is supposed to follow.


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## MadAdey (Nov 29, 2011)

Hobbit said:



			So should I resign from the committee because I go down the pub a night or two a week? That's the Secretary, no1, no2 & no3 on Handicaps, the Treasurer & no2 on Greens. And we also go down the club too, although on occasion it can be unwelcoming late of an evening when the bar room lawyers have had a few beers.

I specifically say some not all, "I don't doubt some have commitments," and I could have also added that there are a number of older members in the pub too. Also, I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to whatever lifestyle they want. I disagree with your comment about those that are down the pub are the ones we don't want - we've 'snared' one of them recently and he's saved us Â£11k in the last month. I was making the point that they have time but choose other things.

You're right, we could split hairs on this forever and a day, though I'm not quite sure anymore what we're splitting hairs about.
		
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I think we sort of agree to disagree on this......... I did not mean that the ones in the pub are not wanted by the club, that has been misunderstood. You said that you see younger members in the pub that do not put themselves forward for the committee. So regarding them they are not going to maybe commit like you would need as their mates in the pub would probably come first.

We both agree on some things though that at some clubs there are people on committee's doing things for their own benefit. Younger people should put more effort into getting on the committee if they want to modernize their clubs approach. Stop moaning in the clubhouse and put yourself forward as they will find out it is not as easy as they think on the committee at times.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Bill,

A mission statement is a statement of the purpose of the Club. The mission statement should guide the actions of the organization, spell out its overall goal, provide a path, and guide decision-making. It provides the framework or context within which the clubs strategies are formulated.

Every club should have one to work within.I am busy creating mine at the moment.

If a decision is made that splits the camp and it is obviously a decision that is odds with the clubs traditions or goals then committee members should be referred back to the mission statement to remind them of the path the club is supposed to follow.

Click to expand...

Thanks mate , no problem as it seem a good idea to me any how


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## stevie_r (Nov 29, 2011)

harvey4banger said:



			[/LIST][h=4]Sandeman Bar and Restaurant[/h]

Smart casual wear, including golf attire, is acceptable.
Tailored shorts may be worn up to 1900.
[h=4]Solent Bar[/h]

Clean and tidy casual/golf attire is acceptable.
Footwear must be worn at all times, but trainers are not allowed.  
Open leather sandals may be worn in the Solent Bar by visiting German Tourists.


Click to expand...

Fixed that bit for you
and who on earth wears flip flops at their club apart from getting to and from the shower?


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			All the social events at my club are over subscribed, and yes, similar to other clubs it is the same people who go to them. But then they support the club, so why should they not be looked after? Put the sheet up at a different time, maybe they can't then go, and some newbies get on the list. Fine if they keep going to the social events, but if it is just a one off, and the normal crowd get the hump, and don't now support them, then it dies. Why chance it, when at the moment, these events are rammed.

Me, I'd like to go to the Christmas one, or may be new year. But I would not go to any others, so I don't really feel I should be trying to put my name down, as others who have supported the club through the year should in my view get first dibs.
		
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Murph, we experienced this in the past, and received complaints because of it. Our remedy was to ask the complainant, or any of his friends, to organise some 'do's'. We also added a bit of positive discrimination and said that he could have the first 10 spaces before the notice went up. The benefit has been we have different types of events organised by a number of people, and its also meant a decent cross section of members getting to know each other.


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## harvey4banger (Nov 29, 2011)

stevie_r said:



			Fixed that bit for you
and who on earth wears flip flops at their club apart from getting to and from the shower?
		
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Last year it said "Open leather sandals may be worn in the Solent Bar, with or without socks" LOL

Oh re flip flops, common sight at my club, but I think it could be my fault for starting that off


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## SatchFan (Nov 29, 2011)

harvey4banger said:



			Love playing Hayling Island GC, but when it comes to old duffers and rules, this is the place. A member grassed me up to the pro last time, for not having wide enough wheels on my trolley, Clicgear, go figure. Here are some of their club house rules, love that you can wear open leather sandles in the Solent bar, think thats where all the hip and trendy golfers hang out

[h=4]The Clubhouse[/h]

Players are requested to freshen up before using the Clubhouse. Golfing dress as defined above is permitted in the Clubhouse provided it is dry, clean and tidy. Golfing rainwear or outdoor clothing is not acceptable in the bar and restaurant areas.
Within the Clubhouse, â€˜closedâ€™ shoes are to be worn at all times.  Trainers and flip flops are not allowed.  Appropriate footwear may be worn without socks in the bar areas.  Golf shoes should not be worn on the balcony, and  are only permitted in the Professional Shop or locker rooms.
Hats and blue denim jeans are not allowed in the Clubhouse.
[h=4]Sandeman Bar and Restaurant[/h]

Smart casual wear, including golf attire, is acceptable.
Tailored shorts may be worn up to 1900.
[h=4]Solent Bar[/h]

Clean and tidy casual/golf attire is acceptable.
Footwear must be worn at all times, but trainers are not allowed.  Open leather sandals may be worn in the Solent Bar during British Summer Time.


Click to expand...

Harvey, couldn't agree more. Great course but horrible social experience. Quite a few ex-military types such as Colonel Armhole and Major Dick floating around making you feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. So many traditions and rules upheld to the n'th degree. I accept the rules are there but not a nice place to visit. Highly unrecommended.


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## richart (Nov 29, 2011)

Played Hayling a few times. Never had any problems as I know what I wear will be acceptable at all clubs. I do check the rules regarding Jacket and Ties at the clubs I play at, but that's it. My attitude is that I am not going to make the effort to go and play a course and use the clubhouse facilities, and  then be turned away for breaking club rules. It also helps that I have not owned a pair of sandals since I was in primary school, my flip flops are for beach use only, and would never dream of wearing shorts anywhere near a  golf course.


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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2011)

harvey4banger said:



			Love playing Hayling Island GC, but when it comes to old duffers and rules, this is the place. A member grassed me up to the pro last time, for not having wide enough wheels on my trolley, Clicgear, go figure. Here are some of their club house rules, love that you can wear open leather sandles in the Solent bar, think thats where all the hip and trendy golfers hang out

*The Clubhouse*



Players are requested to freshen up before using the Clubhouse. Golfing dress as defined above is permitted in the Clubhouse provided it is dry, clean and tidy. Golfing rainwear or outdoor clothing is not acceptable in the bar and restaurant areas.
Within the Clubhouse, â€˜closedâ€™ shoes are to be worn at all times.  Trainers and flip flops are not allowed.  Appropriate footwear may be worn without socks in the bar areas.  Golf shoes should not be worn on the balcony, and  are only permitted in the Professional Shop or locker rooms.
Hats and blue denim jeans are not allowed in the Clubhouse.
*Sandeman Bar and Restaurant*



Smart casual wear, including golf attire, is acceptable.
Tailored shorts may be worn up to 1900.
*Solent Bar*



Clean and tidy casual/golf attire is acceptable.
Footwear must be worn at all times, but trainers are not allowed.  Open leather sandals may be worn in the Solent Bar during British Summer Time.


Click to expand...

Don't see a problem with any of that.
With what I "normally" wear on a golf course, I would be able to wander around hither and tither without fear of being reprimanded.
It's only a problem if I decide to make it a problem


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## richart (Nov 29, 2011)

Can I change my comments as Smiffy has agreed with me.


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## sev112 (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Can I ask if any of the forumers would not sign a job description/mission statement document if they were about to embark on a role within a club committee?
		
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Job descriptions - best thing since sliced bread; very useful tool from a good manager who want his staff to be absolutely clear on what he expects and needs from them.

Mission Statements  - worst thing since sliced bread; common tool of a poor manager who doesnt know what needs doing, how or by when, but wants a stick to hit all the "non-performing staff" with when his suprisingly poor management doesnt produce any profitable business


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## Dodger (Nov 29, 2011)

sev112 said:



			Job descriptions - best thing since sliced bread; very useful tool from a good manager who want his staff to be absolutely clear on what he expects and needs from them.

Mission Statements  - worst thing since sliced bread; common tool of a poor manager who doesnt know what needs doing, how or by when, but wants a stick to hit all the "non-performing staff" with when his suprisingly poor management doesnt produce any profitable business
		
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All those major companies must have some crap folk in charge eh?


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Is the lack or reply to my question down to fear? Are people scared to say no they would not sign?

As for putting people off....if they are unwilling to sign then these people are not the ones you need on your committee.

It's a shame more people have not taken time to express their opinions to my question though......
		
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I have never see a mission statement at any club I have belonged to, golf or otherwise. I can't say whether or not I would refuse to sign one until I have read one. I can't see that our club needed one as I felt we all knew the direction that we were going in and why. The club was soundly run and still is. I am not sure that the unwillingness to sign one means that you don't need those people on a committee any more than signing one is a mark of endorsment.

The fact that you say you are preparing one for your club suggests that you are biased in favour but I honestly dont think that at my club it would be worth the paper it was written on


Chris


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2011)

SatchFan said:



			Harvey, couldn't agree more. Great course but horrible social experience. Quite a few ex-military types such as Colonel Armhole and Major Dick floating around making you feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. So many traditions and rules upheld to the n'th degree. I accept the rules are there but not a nice place to visit. Highly unrecommended.
		
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Is Major Eyeswater still there?  Believe he was a big flap in the mudgards.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2011)

Not sure what sort of mission statement you'd want from a private members club. Can sort of see it if you are a pay and play or muni and want to have some sort of corporate image to attact societies. I'm another that agrees with Richart and Smiffy though. If you are visiting another club it only takes a few seconds to check out the dress rules online or if you can't find it using the old fashioned telephone speaking thingy and asking them. Better a bit of time in advance than being asked to leave and embarrased when you get there.


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## harvey4banger (Nov 30, 2011)

SatchFan said:



			Harvey, couldn't agree more. Great course but horrible social experience. Quite a few ex-military types such as Colonel Armhole and Major Dick floating around making you feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. So many traditions and rules upheld to the n'th degree. I accept the rules are there but not a nice place to visit. Highly unrecommended.
		
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The thing that amazed me about the whole incident, was I couldnt figure out where the hell the guy had appeared from. It was like he had a little bush in the car park he hid behind, just waiting for someone to commit a minor rule infringment. Then BAM err you cant do that, I'm going to see the pro and of he scuttled with a little skip in his step to grass me up, with a little smile on his face. Knowing today, he had saved the club from the brink of disaster and their strong traditions had been up held for another day :lol:


SO SAD


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## Snelly (Nov 30, 2011)

I can't see anything wrong with the Hayling rules. And I agree with Richart and Smiffy too.


As for a golf club needing a mission statement, words fail me.   Actually they don't. 

What a complete, total and utter waste of time for all concerned.  Just think for a second, what could the mission statement for a private members golf club say?  

"Acme GC - our mission is to provide our members with a great golfing experience and welcoming clubhouse environment."    

Either this or a variation of this theme.  Anything else would seem a bit daft and pointless to me??

Maybe not though, perhaps you can be more ambitious? 

"Acme GC - our mission is to promote and end to violence in the world, to nurture the young people that are our future, to find a cure for cancer and stop global warming, all through the vehicle of our great golfing experience and welcoming clubhouse environment."    

A golf club mission statement?  Seems like a committee man from middle management in the public sector has been on one too many management training courses.  Just ridiculous.


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## MadAdey (Nov 30, 2011)

I must agree with what people are saying... Why do you need a mission statement. Surely the job of every club is to provide the best golfing experience they can to both members and visitors. Do not need a mission statement for people to turn to, as every club has the same intentions. Well they should do anyway.


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## Dodger (Nov 30, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I must agree with what people are saying... Why do you need a mission statement. Surely the job of every club is to provide the best golfing experience they can to both members and visitors. Do not need a mission statement for people to turn to, as *every club has the same intentions. Well they should do anyway*.
		
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Intentions....exactly.


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## bobmac (Nov 30, 2011)

Surely it will help if you are all bluesky thinking and singing from the same hymn sheet, mission statement-wise?

Disclaimer.....I have no idea what that means.


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## Dodger (Nov 30, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Surely it will help if you are all bluesky thinking and singing from the same hymn sheet, mission statement-wise?

Disclaimer.....I have no idea what that means. 

Click to expand...


It does sound great tho Bob!


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## MadAdey (Nov 30, 2011)

Dodger said:



			Intentions....exactly.

Click to expand...

Exactly Dodger...Intenetions...

Like I have mentioned before you do get people on a committee that have their own agenda and their intentions are self motivated. Not exactly putting the what is best for the club first. But would those types listen to a mission statement if you did have them?


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## bluewolf (Nov 30, 2011)

How about this for management speak. I got a phone call one night from one of our directors. He wanted to meet myself and my engineering manager for a "3 way cross fertilisation of ideas". I kid you not. Note to anyone who speaks like this. When you put the phone down, people are laughing at you. And all respect is lost forever and ever.


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## bobmac (Nov 30, 2011)

"I didn't get where I am today without cross-fertilising my ideas Reggie" (CJ 1976)


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## Dodger (Nov 30, 2011)

bluewolf said:



			How about this for management speak. I got a phone call one night from one of our directors. He wanted to meet myself and my engineering manager for a "3 way cross fertilisation of ideas". I kid you not. Note to anyone who speaks like this. When you put the phone down, people are laughing at you. And all respect is lost forever and ever.
		
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Are you sure it wasn't his wife he was talking about?


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## bladeplayer (Nov 30, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			Like I have mentioned before you do get people on a committee that have their own agenda and their intentions are self motivated. Not exactly putting the what is best for the club first. But would those types listen to a mission statement if you did have them?
		
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Could be wrong here but would a mission statement not prevent this happening ? ( ie own agenda & self motivated intentions) there is a document there to guide everybody  & if there was an argument regarding anything you would have a document to relate  to for guidance ? they would have a choice sign the mission statement or dont be on the committe , Open to correction tho as i wouldnt be well up on this ...


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## stevie_r (Nov 30, 2011)

Snelly said:



			I can't see anything wrong with the Hayling rules. And I agree with Richart and Smiffy too.


As for a golf club needing a mission statement, words fail me.   Actually they don't. 

What a complete, total and utter waste of time for all concerned.  Just think for a second, what could the mission statement for a private members golf club say?  

"Acme GC - our mission is to provide our members with a great golfing experience and welcoming clubhouse environment."    

Either this or a variation of this theme.  Anything else would seem a bit daft and pointless to me??

Maybe not though, perhaps you can be more ambitious? 

"Acme GC - our mission is to promote and end to violence in the world, to nurture the young people that are our future, to find a cure for cancer and stop global warming, all through the vehicle of our great golfing experience and welcoming clubhouse environment."    

A golf club mission statement?  Seems like a committee man from middle management in the public sector has been on one too many management training courses.  Just ridiculous.
		
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fully agree with Snelly (there's a first) - how on earth would a couple of sentences giving an overall vision particularly assist a committee in doing their job?  Fail to see it myself.


Personal Specification prior to co-opting committee members - potentially useful
Job Description - definitely.
Properly formulated plan on achieving the short, middle and long term aims of the club (in consultation with the paying membership) - definitely


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## MadAdey (Nov 30, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Could be wrong here but would a mission statement not prevent this happening ? ( ie own agenda & self motivated intentions) there is a document there to guide everybody  & if there was an argument regarding anything you would have a document to relate  to for guidance ? they would have a choice sign the mission statement or dont be on the committe , Open to correction tho as i wouldnt be well up on this ...
		
Click to expand...

My point with that was that the types that go onto a committee for their own benefits neither give a toss about what other members want or what is best for the club as long as they get what they want. Showing them a mission statement that they had previously signed would probably not stop them being the way they are. After all they knew being on the committee was to make decisions that are correct for the club and it's members and they had already ignored that. IMO


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## bladeplayer (Nov 30, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			My point with that was that the types that go onto a committee for their own benefits neither give a toss about what other members want or what is best for the club as long as they get what they want. Showing them a mission statement that they had previously signed would probably not stop them being the way they are. After all they knew being on the committee was to make decisions that are correct for the club and it's members and they had already ignored that. IMO
		
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Agreed but would it not give the club some protection tho if a few of these people we described got together , no mater how much they tried to get self motivated stuff through they couldnt ?  again just asking ..


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2011)

On the rare occasions that a group of committee members come to a meeting having prevbiously agreed to try and force an issue through its as obvious as the nose on your face. It only gets through the full mgt committee if it has the support of the majority of members. Typically any attempts to baffle with bullsh!t sees the item deferred till more info is available. The structure of golf clubs means members have direct access all the way through the mgt committee right up to the Secretary. Making a stupid decision is tantamount to posting a target on your back and shouting have a pop.

Mission Statements are the sort of thing that businesses create to get the workforce on-board. Club Mgt committee's are made up of volunteers, they don't need 'persauding.' As for Mission Statements for customers; the product is so simple, pay your fees and play golf, they are of no use at all other than to hide a stain on the wall.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2011)

Having been involved with a number of and activities (football, cricket, scouts etc) I have served my time on committees and think a lot of this stuff about people wanting to impose their own volition is unjust. Maybe I've been fortunate, but most people I've served with have always seemed to have the interest of the club at heart and the aim has been to grow membership, improve facilities and challenge for honours. No need to write it as a mission statement.

I think the same could be applied as simply to a golf club. Attract a full membership, improve facilities (the course and 19th) and have a full diary of fixtures and events on and off the course. Get that right and the profit margins improve, fees don't go through the roof and you don't have members walking. To be honest the buck stops squarely with however is in charge of each committee or the captain to ensure personal agendas, petty snipes and other motives are left at the door. If you can't do that don't waste your time serving


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2011)

I would love to see a mission statement for a golf club if anyone knows of one. I do like the one nike uses:

"To bring inspiration and innovation to every athlete in the world." *"If you have a body you are an athlete."

Or Taylormade:

[h=1]Corporate Mission Statement[/h] [h=4]*The adidas Group strives to be the global leader in the sporting goods industry with sports brands built on a passion for sports and a sporting lifestyle.*[/h] 
*We are dedicated*
to consistently delivering outstanding financial results.
*We are innovation and design leaders*
who seek to help athletes of all skill levels achieve peak performance with every product we bring to market. 
*We are consumer focused*
and therefore we continuously improve the quality, look, feel and image of our products and our organisational structures to match and exceed consumer expectations and to provide them with the highest value.
*We are a global organisation *
that is socially and environmentally responsible, creative and financially rewarding for our employees and shareholders.
*We are committed *
to continuously strengthening our brands and products to improve our competitive position. 
​


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## sev112 (Dec 1, 2011)

Dodger said:



			All those major companies must have some crap folk in charge eh?
		
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They certainly do, and they are all the same  - i work for one of the biggest in my industry

We are a good strong company, but the Peter Principle is highly visible


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## sev112 (Dec 1, 2011)

bladeplayer said:



			Could be wrong here but would a mission statement not prevent this happening ? ( ie own agenda & self motivated intentions) there is a document there to guide everybody  & if there was an argument regarding anything you would have a document to relate  to for guidance ? they would have a choice sign the mission statement or dont be on the committe , Open to correction tho as i wouldnt be well up on this ...
		
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All well and good, but you've got to write the bloomin thing in the first place and that ends up being a committee compromise.  As a result people then spend ages making decisions against the Mission Statement when in fact they would be better off making decisions against sounds business and personnel management sense !
That's why Mission Statements are pants


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