# Comic Relief



## Mungoscorner (Mar 15, 2013)

Will try to keep this short,and maybe not so sweet.
For those of us fortunate enough to be able to play golf tomorrow/sunday,when your moaning about a missed putt,sliced/hooked drive etc,spare a thought for those less fortunate than ourselves.

I really don't care what colour,race,religion somebody is,if i can help those less fortunate (especially children) by giving a few quid,then i will always do so.

For those about to say "charity begins at home","they shouldn't have so many children" etc etc,save your typing finger the trouble.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2013)

Done my bit in work today. Is it me though or is the whole thing distinctly unfunny and smacks of desperation


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2013)

Better keep my mouth shut then.


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## stevie_r (Mar 15, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Better keep my mouth shut then.
		
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me too


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## DelB (Mar 15, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Will try to keep this short,and maybe not so sweet.
For those of us fortunate enough to be able to play golf tomorrow/sunday,when your moaning about a missed putt,sliced/hooked drive etc,spare a thought for those less fortunate than ourselves.

I really don't care what colour,race,religion somebody is,if i can help those less fortunate (especially children) by giving a few quid,then i will always do so.

For those about to say "charity begins at home","they shouldn't have so many children" etc etc,save your typing finger the trouble.
		
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Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment and have donated via text and also to a few different other comic relief efforts during the course of today and this week, but the 'entertainment' on offer is woeful. Why does Lenny Henry always get wheeled out for these things? He is to comedy, what Ronnie Corbett is to basketball.


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 15, 2013)

DelB said:



			Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment and have donated via text and also to a few different other comic relief efforts during the course of today and this week, but the 'entertainment' on offer is woeful. Why does Lenny Henry always get wheeled out for these things? He is to comedy, what Ronnie Corbett is to basketball.
		
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The entertainment is pretty weak to be honest.


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## stevie_r (Mar 15, 2013)

Lenny Henry is about as funny as Paddy McGuiness, i.e. not


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 15, 2013)

Heart breaking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ynoZBqJQA


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## LUFC 1972 (Mar 16, 2013)

Was involved in the first comic relief 25 years ago whilst working for Oxfam, dont think anyone thought it would last this long and have worked with a number of projects in the Midlands working with young and elderly people who have benefiited from CR. Its not for everyone but 70M shows there are a lot of people who do care, is it funny it used to be but maybe i am getting old and comedy has changed .. thought the David Brent video and Smithy bits were funy last night but hat was 10 minutes out of 7 hours.. there is more time spent on the plight but that is to get the message across and it obviously works.. 

For me if several million children live longer because i have donated for a vaccine I am happy i have contributed.. BUT... if i see one direction murdering two great songs again I might ask for a refund !


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## kev_off_the_tee (Mar 16, 2013)

I have no issues with donating to charity, but its when it gets rammed down your throat.

I got hit for money at the school gate, non uniform day, red nose and hair band, when I went for my lunch, post office, supermarket, car park 4 times, picking my daughter up from school, all night on TV.

I let rip at a volunteer for the British heart foundation when she come knocking at the door. I explained that I knew it wasn't her fault but what a stupid time to come looking for donations when the big fundraising drive was for another charity.

And the "entertainment", if the BBC spent the money on the charity rather than sending "celebrities" to Africa in business/1st class and putting them in hotels, paying travel/food/tour guide/security expenses, sending them on once-in-a-lifetime activities which us regular people pay thousands of pounds do so....I'll stop there.

Again, I'm not against giving to charity and am around Â£40 lighter from yesterday alone


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Done my bit in work today. Is it me though or is the whole thing distinctly unfunny and smacks of desperation
		
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Being a contrary sod I could argue that one kid dying of malaria in Africa every second is not that funny a subject.  And yes the video clips in Africa are getting more and more 'direct' and you know what is going to happen as a celeb is going to start crying after witnessing a child die.  But that is what generates the most money.  The comedy is always going to be quite broad as it is trying to appeal to as wider audience as possible.  

And as for One Direction's murdering songs then Teenage Kicks is possibly my favourite song ever, but I don't have a problem with it.  Yes it's a pretty rubbish version, but I am not the target audience.  If they just mashed up the Blondie and Undertones originals then it would sell chuff all and create zero publicity. Plus they have gone out to Africa, used their huge popularity and done something to help, so fair play to them.  It's not as if they need the publicity.


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## louise_a (Mar 16, 2013)

if it wasnt for the fact that I checked what was on tv last night, I wouldn't have known that yesterday was comic relief day.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2013)

The biggest 'crime' to me is that there are some that would rather see their money go to animal charities ahead of being used to better or save the life of a child...

I live not too far from a dog charity establishment... It simply does my head in to have seen the MILLIONS invested in this place whilst kids are dying of starvation in OUR world...


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 16, 2013)

I'd like to know what they do with the money, since Comic Relief started they must have made near a Billion pound? Plus all the other countless charities that ask for Â£2 a month. Whats happening with the money? Surely that much would make a difference, yet it doesnt seem to have changed much in 20 odd years.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2013)

Big_Rick78 said:



			I'd like to know what they do with the money, since Comic Relief started they must have made near a Billion pound? Plus all the other countless charities that ask for Â£2 a month. Whats happening with the money? Surely that much would make a difference, yet it doesnt seem to have changed much in 20 odd years.
		
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I can't remember all the actual figures from last night but one that stuck in my mind was that mothers dying during child birth has been cut by a third in the last 10yrs - 150,000 more mothers live to bring up their children. There was a bunch of equally impressive numbers... its definitely making a difference.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2013)

Big_Rick78 said:



			I'd like to know what they do with the money, since Comic Relief started they must have made near a Billion pound? Plus all the other countless charities that ask for Â£2 a month. Whats happening with the money? Surely that much would make a difference, yet it doesnt seem to have changed much in 20 odd years.
		
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Sadly, I suspect, too much gets 'lost' in 'infrastructure' ahead of reaching the 'coal face'... 

Having said that... Friends involved with charity work advise 'things' are getting better though on the face of it this may not appear to be the case...


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## Sweep (Mar 16, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Will try to keep this short,and maybe not so sweet.
For those of us fortunate enough to be able to play golf tomorrow/sunday,when your moaning about a missed putt,sliced/hooked drive etc,spare a thought for those less fortunate than ourselves.

I really don't care what colour,race,religion somebody is,if i can help those less fortunate (especially children) by giving a few quid,then i will always do so.

For those about to say "charity begins at home","they shouldn't have so many children" etc etc,save your typing finger the trouble.
		
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Err...the whole point of a forum is to allow people to express their own opinion. Personally I will give where I can and I am always grateful for everything I have. Much of this is of course is an accident of birth and I think we should be very thankful. However, I have to admit that in some way I object to being continually harassed, whether it's in the advert break on Sky, Children In Need (change the record!) or Comic Relief. I do suspect that much of Comic Relief is as much about the advancement of a few careers as it is about charity and I have to say it is a big turn off for me. As for "they should have less children", people in this country at least should start to take responsibility for their own actions.


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## Iaing (Mar 16, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			The biggest 'crime' to me is that there are some that would rather see their money go to animal charities ahead of being used to better or save the life of a child...

I live not too far from a dog charity establishment... It simply does my head in to have seen the MILLIONS invested in this place whilst kids are dying of starvation in OUR world...
		
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Everyone's different matey.

I've just sent an extra tenner this month to the Dog's Trust on the basis of your post!:thup:


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2013)

Iaing said:



			Everyone's different matey.

I've just sent an extra tenner this month to the Dog's Trust on the basis of your post!:thup:
		
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I am sure your money will be well spent... On ensuring the staff will be able to continue to drive around in the latest reg. vehicles... Really pleased for them...


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## Yerman (Mar 16, 2013)

Africas problems are political more than financial. Feeding the poor is a short-term sticking plaster which is why its still going after 25yrs, worthy but pointless.


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## full_throttle (Mar 16, 2013)

I've donated the same as every year.


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## JustOne (Mar 16, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			I am sure your money will be well spent... On ensuring the staff will be able to continue to drive around in the latest reg. vehicles... Really pleased for them...
		
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What reg is _your_ car?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2013)

JustOne said:



			What reg is _your_ car?
		
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## JustOne (Mar 16, 2013)

MegaSteve said:





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You don't have one?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2013)

Big_Rick78 said:



			I'd like to know what they do with the money, since Comic Relief started they must have made near a Billion pound? Plus all the other countless charities that ask for Â£2 a month. Whats happening with the money? Surely that much would make a difference, yet it doesnt seem to have changed much in 20 odd years.
		
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What are you expecting to see?  Golf plated roads in Africa?  African teenagers driving Fiat 500s and walking round with Ipads?  Have you tried to find out what difference it has made, did you see the features last night on projects it has funded?  It's such a huge issue that the money donated by charity will make a small difference.  But making a little difference in a country where 100s of thousands are dying of preventable conditions such as malnutrition and malaria is always better than doing nothing.

It's not the fault of the children and families that they were born where they were. As was mentioned last night, all of us on this board got lucky and a lot of people in other places did not.  Some people worry about if a shirt is tucked in and the length of socks worn with shorts when playing golf, others worry about if they will have enough food to eat.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Children In Need (change the record!)
		
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Speaking as a parent and a supporter of a childs right to have a childhood, can I call you a ****?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I do suspect that much of Comic Relief is as much about the advancement of a few careers as it is about charity
		
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Lazy old argument. Have you thought that perhaps, just perhaps, that they do it to give something back and it is an opportunity for them to make a difference through doing what they do best?

Does Richard Curtis need more publicity and money and has he worked tirelessly over the last 25 years to put it all together just so he can make Love Actually 2?  Are One Direction struggling for public recognition, is Michael Mcintyre struggling to fill arenas, is Russell Brand desperate to be more famous, does Claudia Winkleman need to raise her TV profile and is she struggling for TV gigs, does Peter Kay needs to sell out more enormodomes, does John Bishop need more exposure on TV, is James Corden struggling in his theatre career, is Ricky Gervais a comedy nobody needing recognition, is Rowan Atkinson destitute and penniless?  Should we ban all famous people from these types of public TV charity raising programs as they are all in it to further their careers?


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## AuburnWarrior (Mar 16, 2013)

Lenny Henry said that, through Comic Relief, something like 5,000,000 Africans had been given mobile phones.  They then showed a video of a small child dying of malaria.  Apparently it only cost Â£5 to vaccinate.
Why are comic relief kitting people out with mobiles - that they don't need - when their fellow country folk are dying?  Misappropriation of funds?

Also, he stated that since 1988 Comic Relief had raised something like Â£10,000,000,000.  That's a HUGE sum of money.  Certainly enough to give the people of Africa the basic vaccinations required.  

Whilst watching last night I couldn't help but think that, once again, it's the average man in the UK that's made to feel guilty.  Bill Gates, Abramovich, Lakshmi Mittel, Ecclestone - just these four alone are worth in excess of Â£100,000,000,000.  I could add Africa's second son Geldof and perhaps the other serial bleaterer Bono who must be worth a fair few quid.  I don't doubt for one minute that they, if they used their OWN vast (and mostly not required) wealth that they could solve pretty much all of the health issues in Africa!  I mean, does anyone living in the US or the UK NEED a billion pounds???

Watching the horrible images of children dying last night broke my heart as I'm a Dad but my Â£5 isn't the answer.  The leaders of this world need to be harassing the billionaires and getting them to donate 75% of their wealth to help those less fortunate.  They won't though, it's easier to make me feel guilty.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Also, he stated that since 1988 Comic Relief had raised something like Â£10,000,000,000.  That's a HUGE sum of money.  Certainly enough to give the people of Africa the basic vaccinations required.
		
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Before last night it has raised Â£610 Million. Get your facts right.  And I don't think they were trying to make you feel guilty, but just show some compassion.  But if you think the answer is to strip the wealth of 4 or 5 individuals so you can not feel guilty then OK, good policy with a great practical chance of it succeeding and making a difference.


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## Yerman (Mar 16, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Lenny Henry said that, through Comic Relief, something like 5,000,000 Africans had been given mobile phones.  They then showed a video of a small child dying of malaria.  Apparently it only cost Â£5 to vaccinate.
Why are comic relief kitting people out with mobiles - that they don't need - when their fellow country folk are dying?  Misappropriation of funds?.
		
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There is* NO* effective vaccination to malaria. These poor folk need food, education and empowerment, mobile phones are probably of more longterm benefit than simply filling starving bellies.


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## Bazzatron (Mar 16, 2013)

If I couldn't feed the kids I already had, I certainly wouldn't be having any more


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## Andy808 (Mar 16, 2013)

Although it's a great cause to give to I do have a couple of problems with it. 
Firstly I would like to see more money staying in the UK as there are so many charities that are really struggling and could do so much with money from Comic relief.
The second thing is it used to be funny! Now we are bombarded with images from Africa of dying kids. We all know that's what it's for and will give anyway. It would be nice to see more comedy that is actually funny!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You don't have one?
		
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As it seems to interest you its R reg all bought and paid for by myself and not a 'perk' of my employment...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2013)

Yerman said:



			There is* NO* effective vaccination to malaria. These poor folk need food, education and empowerment, mobile phones are probably of more longterm benefit than simply filling starving bellies.
		
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What does that mean 'Empowerment' ?      My heart bleeds when I see these poor children suffering, how could anyone not be affected by these images.

What I cant resolve though is what would be the best way to reduce this suffering.   If you have children that are starving and impoverished why would you want to bring more into the world, I just cant believe it's lack of education,  how educated do you need to be to realise that the new baby will also starve.

Somehow scarce resources need to be channelled into education and contraception.  I think we will face a similar problem here in the UK when state borrowing really has to stop (believe me it will have to) and people have no state crutch to support their lifestyles.

Ultimately the planet can only support a finite number of our species in the manner they have been accustomed and no matter how we try to square the circle; continued population increases will create situations that no amount of red noses can fix.


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## beggsy (Mar 17, 2013)

I saved little kofies life today all I had to do was like a picture status on Facebook


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## Smiffy (Mar 17, 2013)

Drinking water????
We've ploughed enough money into Africa over the years for the vast majority to have their own swimming pools.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			What I cant resolve though is what would be the best way to reduce this suffering.   If you have children that are starving and impoverished why would you want to bring more into the world, I just cant believe it's lack of education,  how educated do you need to be to realise that the new baby will also starve.
		
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Tying this up with another thread, the Catholic churches' attitudes to contraception is a major factor here.  I suspect no one thinks that annual charity events are the best way to solve the problem in the long term.  And as many have said there are many deep seated structural economic, cultural and political factors that need addressing to make a long term difference.  But I see it as you have to do what you can do.

And also another comment mentioned the money not staying in the UK.  I think that is the focus for Children in Need, and the focus on Comic relief has always been different.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2013)

Andy808 said:



			Now we are bombarded with images from Africa of dying kids. We all know that's what it's for and will give anyway. It would be nice to see more comedy that is actually funny!
		
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They found out very quickly that once you show the suffering in its raw form and a celeb crying then the amount of donations spikes dramatically.  So it is used to persuade the waiverers, the people who probably would not have donated anyway. 

As for it being funny then I enjoyed most of the comedy sketches.  Some of it was not for me (Mrs Browns Boys, Call the Midwife) but personally I thought some bits were great (David Walliams VD sketch, Peter Kaye, David Brent) and as I have said before it has to be broad to appeal to the widest possible audience.  But of course comedy is subjective so they are never going to please everyone.


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## Sweep (Mar 17, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Speaking as a parent and a supporter of a childs right to have a childhood, can I call you a ****?
		
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You can call me what you want. I was merely suggesting that if they "changed the record" they might create more interest. 20 + years of the same thing with the same celebs advancing their careers, all for the same charity is getting stale. You don't have a monopoly on supporting a childs right to a childhood. You have no knowledge of what I give to charity.


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## Sweep (Mar 17, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Lazy old argument. Have you thought that perhaps, just perhaps, that they do it to give something back and it is an opportunity for them to make a difference through doing what they do best?

Does Richard Curtis need more publicity and money and has he worked tirelessly over the last 25 years to put it all together just so he can make Love Actually 2?  Are One Direction struggling for public recognition, is Michael Mcintyre struggling to fill arenas, is Russell Brand desperate to be more famous, does Claudia Winkleman need to raise her TV profile and is she struggling for TV gigs, does Peter Kay needs to sell out more enormodomes, does John Bishop need more exposure on TV, is James Corden struggling in his theatre career, is Ricky Gervais a comedy nobody needing recognition, is Rowan Atkinson destitute and penniless?  Should we ban all famous people from these types of public TV charity raising programs as they are all in it to further their careers?
		
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I don't know why, but I am getting the impression you didn't like my post. Nobody on TV is desperate for cash or publicity. But it doesn't do them any harm, does it? As said on a previous post, why is Lenny Henry always dragged out for these things? If you are so keen on Comic Relief, I think there is a free pair of shoes somewhere that could be sold for a good cause.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2013)

Sir Trever Bayliss has saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Africa with his wind up radio.
Mobile phones will work in the same way.

I think Europeans generally have no idea of the scale of the size of Africa and the problems it causes.
Ask our kids to walk 10 miles a day to and from school and I wonder what the response would be.
Many are so overweight that the would struggle to walk one mile.


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## stevie_r (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I don't know why, but I am getting the impression you didn't like my post. Nobody on TV is desperate for cash or publicity. But it doesn't do them any harm, does it? As said on a previous post, why is Lenny Henry always dragged out for these things? If you are so keen on Comic Relief, I think there is a free pair of shoes somewhere that could be sold for a good cause.
		
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meooww


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2013)

As some may have worked out I have been personally and professionally involved in this.  Hence my rather testy replies.  I take on board that everyone has an opinion. But I get very frustrated by comments that at best are driven by misinformation and at worse downright cynical and bordering on morally offensive (to me anyway).  

Trust me, we have heard all the '_if you are so bothered why don't you sell all your belongings, things never change so why bother, why can't the government sort it all out (anyone fancy paying more taxes for them to do it then?) why can't the very rich pay sort it out_ arguments before, and if that is how people feel and it gives them a reason not to engage then there's not much can be done.  Yes charities have to be accountable and can't just take money for no return.  But it does make a difference to people's lives, easiest thing to do is look at the web site for examples.  http://www.comicrelief.com/how-we-help

Comic Relief does make a difference to peoples lives in Africa and the UK, yes it is never going to solve the problems in the long run in places like Africa as there are so many factors involved.  But I would say there are more deserving targets topics for cynical keyboard warriors to have a go than a charity that has raised hundreds of millions of pounds for people a lot less fortunate than us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2013)

Well said Hacker.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 17, 2013)

With regard to the amount of money raised and the impact, you have to bear in mind the problems are _huge_. Beyond what we can imagine.

Just take access to clean water and sanitation,  basic essentials which we take for granted but which have a massive impact on health. 

According to WHO/Unicef

*783 million* people in the world do not have access to safe water - roughly one in ten of the world's population.

*2.5 billion* people in the world do not have access to adequate sanitation - almost two fifths of the world's population. 

Whether Comic Relief is or isn't the best way of raising money or awareness I don't know but I'm pretty sure that a huge amount has been donated and lives saved that otherwise might not have been.


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## Slime (Mar 17, 2013)

Big_Rick78 said:



			I'd like to know what they do with the money, since Comic Relief started they must have made near a Billion pound? Plus all the other countless charities that ask for Â£2 a month. Whats happening with the money? Surely that much would make a difference, yet it doesnt seem to have changed much in 20 odd years.
		
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I get the impression that all our money is just prolonging the agony. Unless the money can be used to change the weather or educate them to stop having so many children, I fear for them. Between 1990 & 2008 the population of Africa increased by 55%, more than anywhere else in the world!



MegaSteve said:



			The biggest 'crime' to me is that there are some that would rather see their money go to animal charities ahead of being used to better or save the life of a child...
I live not too far from a dog charity establishment... It simply does my head in to have seen the MILLIONS invested in this place whilst kids are dying of starvation in OUR world...
		
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Please don't condemn someone as a criminal just because their charities of choice differ from yours.



Hacker Khan said:



			What are you expecting to see?  Golf plated roads in Africa?  African teenagers driving Fiat 500s and walking round with Ipads?  Have you tried to find out what difference it has made, did you see the features last night on projects it has funded?  It's such a huge issue that the money donated by charity will make a small difference.  But making a little difference in a country where 100s of thousands are dying of preventable conditions such as malnutrition and malaria is always better than doing nothing.
It's not the fault of the children and families that they were born where they were. As was mentioned last night, all of us on this board got lucky and a lot of people in other places did not.  Some people worry about if a shirt is tucked in and the length of socks worn with shorts when playing golf, others worry about if they will have enough food to eat.
		
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'Africa, the world's poorest continent, also has it's highest birth rate. A woman in sub-Saharan Africa will give birth to an average of 5.2 children in her lifetime. Africa's population of 1 billion is predicted to *MORE THAN DOUBLE* in the next forty years (http://www.prb.org/pdf11/2011population-data-sheet_eng.pdf) to 2.3 billion, accounting for about *half of projected global growth over that period*.

Africa  is growing fast because it is young. The top 10 youngest populations in  the world are all from the continent, led by Niger (an estimated 48.9%  below the age of 14), Uganda and Mali. Many will have big families,  knowing that despite ongoing efforts to combat malnutrition and HIV,  *there is a strong risk many of their children will die*'.
They need to be educated as to how to become self-sufficient with the resources that are available to them, and that means they must just stop having so many children.
I don't think we're helping as much as we think we are.





Bazzatron said:



			If I couldn't feed the kids I already had, I certainly wouldn't be having any more
		
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:thup:

*Slime*.


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

Not many of these charity chief executives starving
Check the wages.
I will never give my quid to these people so they can live in luxury. End of.
http://society.guardian.co.uk/salarysurvey/table/0,12406,1042677,00.html
See for yourself.


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			I will never give my quid to these people so they can live in luxury. End of.
		
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What are you going to do.... spend your life running the British Red Cross for Â£30/year and sleep on the street?????




I have no issue with someone earning 70-120K for taking the responsibility, after all that's not exactly lottery sized earnings for the job they are having to do.


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

True but then again it is a damn sight more than the people in Africa will ever see before they die. If you are working for a charity and asking people who do not earn 100K or more to give a portion of their earning you do not take massive pay yourself. I do not nor ever see myself earning 100K a year so I will not fund someone elses extravagent lifestyle with the little money I have.


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## Kellfire (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			so I will not fund someone elses extravagent lifestyle with the little money I have.
		
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Your tax money does that for you.


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			True but then again it is a damn sight more than the people in Africa will ever see before they die.
		
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Sure but then it doesn't cost them the same to live does it? 150K for a very modest house here in the UK, the mortgage interest alone would feed a small family for a year. It's like comparing apples and oranges.


70K in this country ISN'T a lot of money, it's enough but not exactly CEO type of salary, a train driver can make close to 70K, a pilot probably makes more than that and all they do is sleep with stewardesses, not head up a national organisation


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

JustOne said:



			70K in this country ISN'T a lot of money, it's enough but not exactly CEO type of salary, a train driver can make close to 70K, a pilot probably makes more than that and all they do is sleep with stewardesses, not head up a national organisation 

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Several times on this forum I have been accused of talking rubbish, mainly about Rugby Union granted but I have never come out with a statement like that one buddy. The difference is the pilot and train driver do not ask other people to give so they can earn their wage. The CEO's of these charities take their wage from other peoples donations to buy their detached 6 bedroom houses BMW's and weekend cottages in Cornwall or wherever they are, all the while whilst also funding tv ads to make us feel guilty and give our money.


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## Kellfire (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			The difference is the pilot and train driver do not ask other people to give so they can earn their wage.
		
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Really? So no one pays to be on a train or a plane?

You're very narrow sighted here DB.

Without the people doing these jobs for charities, no one would be collecting for them at all. It's ludicrous to expect only volunteers or minimal pay for people holding senior positions in such organisations; they deserve their pay because without it the charities would've raise what they do.


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Your tax money does that for you.
		
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True mate very true but I have no say in the amount of money I am taxed or indeed how it is spent regardless of how I vote. I do however have a say in how I use the money I have left after my wage has been robbed by our and the European governments.


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			The CEO's of these charities take their wage from other peoples donations to buy their detached 6 bedroom houses BMW's and weekend cottages in Cornwall or wherever they are, all the while whilst also funding tv ads to make us feel guilty and give our money.
		
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I think you're mistaken with the quality of life you can have on Â£70K, besides, what's ONE HOUSE or family living an OK life compared to the work they do for the charity? Put the right person in charge and you might have a charity that raises millions upon millions.... pay someone peanuts and you might have a charity that raises nothing.

I wouldn't want to run the British Red Cross or Cancer Research charity even if it DID mean I could drive a Mercedes.

If you don't think you'll ever earn 70K then that's your prerogative.


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

Good luck, well said keep giving mines staying firmly in my pocket funding my own lifestyle.


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## Kellfire (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't give to Comic Relief either, or any charity for that matter, but your logic is random!


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			mines staying firmly in my pocket funding my own lifestyle.
		
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There's nothing wrong with that, I take my hat off to you for having the balls to say so too :thup:



Charity is a very emotive subject and often leads to disagreement. Give a child a vaccine and it will live long enough to starve to death, if the infrastructure isn't there then what's the point?

How much money has been donated to Africa over the past 25yrs worldwide... billions of billions, yet the water supply hasn't even been sorted out yet, but I bet there's more AK47's per capita than cows, so by all means keep your money to yourself, it does make sense.


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## drawboy (Mar 17, 2013)

JustOne said:



			There's nothing wrong with that, I take my hat off to you for having the balls to say so too :thup:



Charity is a very emotive subject and often leads to disagreement. Give a child a vaccine and it will live long enough to starve to death, if the infrastructure isn't there then what's the point?

How much money has been donated to Africa over the past 25yrs worldwide... billions of billions, yet the water supply hasn't even been sorted out yet, but I bet there's more AK47's per capita than cows, so by all means keep your money to yourself, it does make sense.
		
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:cheers:


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## stevie_r (Mar 17, 2013)

I only donate to charities aimed at benefiting UK citizens and in the main charities supporting ex servicemen and women. 

I find the amount of charity cash that leaves the country bound for the bottomless money pit quite irritating; that and our level of foreign aid.  Next year we will donate more through foreign aid than we will spend on policing our own nation.  This includes aid to a particular country with huge extremes of wealth and poverty despite a rapidly expanding economy, oh, and obviously a fairly advanced space programme. It also includes fairly hefty donations to the next host nation of the Olympic games 

You couldn't make it up


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2013)

It is worth pointing out that all a fair percentage of moneys raised is spent in the UK,
From kids to great grannies [to kids and great grannies]


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I only donate to charities aimed at benefiting UK citizens and in the main charities supporting ex servicemen and women.
		
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I donate to whatever takes my mood at the time, if I want to I will, but I don't set a benchmark.

Lad leaves school with very little qualifications, his parents need to teach him some discipline and keep him out of trouble so he joins the army, TO FIGHT FOR HIS COUNTRY, gets some training and a gun, heads off to train worldwide and finally ends up camped in enemy territory, posts a vid of him and his mates doing 'Gangham Style' whilst wearing only their sleeping bags and supping a beer or two on to Youtube, then the next day he steps on a landmine and loses a leg - should that be a charity thing or a government thing?

Child has no fresh water and drinks from a puddle - charity or government thing?

Do I give to the guy who signed up to FIGHT (that his government doesn't provide enough for) or the INNOCENT child?

Like I said, I (personally)have to give to whichever I feel for at the time, that's how simple it seems to me because I really am in no position to make a definite decision, even for myself.


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## Yerman (Mar 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			What does that mean 'Empowerment' ?      My heart bleeds when I see these poor children suffering, how could anyone not be affected by these images.
		
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"Empowerment" means helping them find the power to make their political leaders stop this repetition of displacement and starvation- usually man-made, not drought or natural disaster. For that they clearly need to be fed, educated and in many cases armed, the step charities baulk at.


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## stevie_r (Mar 17, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I donate to whatever takes my mood at the time, if I want to I will, but I don't set a benchmark.

Lad leaves school with very little qualifications, his parents need to teach him some discipline and keep him out of trouble so he joins the army, TO FIGHT FOR HIS COUNTRY, gets some training and a gun, heads off to train worldwide and finally ends up camped in enemy territory, posts a vid of him and his mates doing 'Gangham Style' whilst wearing only their sleeping bags and supping a beer or two on to Youtube, then the next day he steps on a landmine and loses a leg - should that be a charity thing or a government thing?

Child has no fresh water and drinks from a puddle - charity or government thing?

Do I give to the guy who signed up to FIGHT (that his government doesn't provide enough for) or the INNOCENT child?

Like I said, I (personally)have to give to whichever I feel for at the time, that's how simple it seems to me because I really am in no position to make a definite decision, even for myself.
		
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I find your assumption that anyone joining the army has very little in the way of qualifications laughable and ill informed


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Several times on this forum I have been accused of talking rubbish
		
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Can't think why........


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 17, 2013)

Why do some people on this forum feel the need to pick holes in everything ?
I post a simple message about helping/donating,and ask that those with negative comments refrain from commenting,but yet again they can't help themselves and try to sow a seed of doubt in the minds/pockets of those that do contribute,or are considering doing so.
What a sorry world we live in.


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## stevie_r (Mar 17, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Why do some people on this forum feel the need to pick holes in everything ?
I post a simple message about helping/donating,and ask that those with negative comments refrain from commenting,but yet again they can't help themselves and try to sow a seed of doubt in the minds/pockets of those that do contribute,or are considering doing so.
What a sorry world we live in.
		
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It's a forum mate, it's about debate and opinions otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.  You can't start a thread and tell people only to post if they agree with you.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 17, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			For those about to say "charity begins at home","they shouldn't have so many children" etc etc,save your typing finger the trouble.
		
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"I post a simple message about helping/donating,and ask that those with negative comments refrain from commenting"​​

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No you didn't *ask* those with negative comments to refrain, you posted a message that effectively *told* those who didn't agree with your opinion to shut up.  Some chose not to.​


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## alnecosse (Mar 17, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			It's a forum mate, it's about debate and opinions otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.  You can't start a thread and tell people only to post if they agree with you.
		
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Ditto


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 17, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			It's a forum mate, it's about debate and opinions otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.  You can't start a thread and tell people only to post if they agree with you.
		
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Stevie,have you been at that Bucky again ?


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 17, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			No you didn't *ask* those with negative comments to refrain, you posted a message that effectively *told* those who didn't agree with your opinion to shut up.  Some chose not to.[/LEFT]
		
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Don't edit,speak your mind.


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 17, 2013)

alnecosse said:



			Ditto
		
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Thanks for your input.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2013)

I have great respect for people who selflessly help others less fortunate than themselves, this is the milk of human kindness.  I have always had standing orders to charities that work to improve the lives of people by giving them the tools and means to support themselves.

I am becoming more aware of the root problems rather than the symptoms though.  I stated earlier in this thread that more needs doing with education and contraception to reduce the demand on the planets scarce resources.    I cant think of any world problem that would not be eased by smaller populations.    Just take a look at Britain, we cannot support the lifestyles we have become accustomed to without massive borrowing, how can this be sustainable.  Politicians will not face the reality that the population will either have to accept and expect less state support or we will slowly but surely be reduced to living a third world existence when the money supply runs out.


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## JustOne (Mar 18, 2013)

Perhaps off topic.... the BBC isn't using it's old building any more....




			Staff working on radio news, Newsnight, World TV and the news website have already moved into the Â£1bn extension to the BBC's headquarters.
		
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One *BILLION*??? Go figure   Apparently there's people dying in the world yet we have a billion to spend on a building, but feel the need to fleece Â£75M from the general public for 'Red Nose Day' and make many 1000's feel guilty as hell.


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## drawboy (Mar 18, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't think why........
		
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I'm not rising to that one, it's too easy. Nice one though.


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## DappaDonDave (Mar 18, 2013)

How did the developed world become so? Did we sit about getting handouts to build wells, malaria nets and vaccinations? OR did we make them ourselves? Did we develop new skills and techniques to overcome out environmental restrictions? 

I'm a strong believer in evolution. 

No charity thank you, I'll give my son everything he needs and wants, not give to others


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## chrisd (Mar 18, 2013)

I would like to see how much the countries that we give charitable aid to, spend on arms and how much their government officials take from the country's own income?


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## User20205 (Mar 18, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			How did the developed world become so? Did we sit about getting handouts to build wells, malaria nets and vaccinations? OR did we make them ourselves? Did we develop new skills and techniques to overcome out environmental restrictions? 

I'm a strong believer in evolution. 

No charity thank you, I'll give my son everything he needs and wants, not give to others
		
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Charity is up to the individual, If you don't want to give it's up to you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^but this, is utter nonsense (not the son bit:thup

One of the main reasons we became developed was development & explotation of an empire, most of which could be classed now  as 3rd world. 

It's not the only reason they are undeveloped, but they have been exploited & continue to be exploited by the first world.


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## stevie_r (Mar 18, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Stevie,have you been at that Bucky again ?
		
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Tasted it once years ago mate, that was enough; this weekend I have been mainly consuming.....antibiotics :angry:


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2013)

therod said:



			Charity is up to the individual, If you don't want to give it's up to you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^but this, is utter nonsense (not the son bit:thup

One of the main reasons we became developed was development & explotation of an empire, most of which could be classed now  as 3rd world. 

It's not the only reason they are undeveloped, but they have been exploited & continue to be exploited by the first world.
		
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Saved me pointing this out so cheers.  Good reply.  It's the turn of the Chinese to exploit Africa now so at least they have some new exploiters to work with.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Perhaps off topic.... the BBC isn't using it's old building any more....



One *BILLION*??? Go figure   Apparently there's people dying in the world yet we have a billion to spend on a building, but feel the need to fleece Â£75M from the general public for 'Red Nose Day' and make many 1000's feel guilty as hell.
		
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Comic Relief and the BBC are different organisations.  For the hard of thinking, the BBC is a broadcasting organisation that broadcasts programs.  And Comic Relief is a charity.  The Comic Relief broadcast is broadcast on the BBC. 

The fact that BBC have spent the license fee on a building has nothing to do with the funding of Comic Relief.  It's like asking why the BBC have not done anything about climate change as they have broadcast 'An Inconvenient Truth'


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## Sweep (Mar 18, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant think of any world problem that would not be eased by smaller populations.    Just take a look at Britain, we cannot support the lifestyles we have become accustomed to without massive borrowing, how can this be sustainable.  Politicians will not face the reality that the population will either have to accept and expect less state support or we will slowly but surely be reduced to living a third world existence when the money supply runs out.
		
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I couldn't agree more. Question: Since the 1960's the workplace has been bolstered by a huge number of women. Now most households have 2 working adults whereas in the 1960's typically there was 1. The workplace has also been bolstered by huge immigration. How is it that the unemployment figure has remained relatively static at around 2.5m even though the population has increased by around 10m? Answer: Jobs create jobs. More public transport, more sandwich bars, more office space, more construction etc etc required. Successive governments love it because more jobs = more tax. However, this is false growth and as you say, not sustainable. What we and the developing nations need is less population working to create real growth like we used to. Here just like in the developing nations, we need to learn quickly that if we can't afford children then we shouldn't have them. Of course it is impossible for any government to turn its back on a child and no-one is suggesting it should. The fault lies with the parents and the state handout culture. As I said in a previous post on this topic, it's time we all started to take responsibility for our own actions.


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## Sweep (Mar 18, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Perhaps off topic.... the BBC isn't using it's old building any more....



One *BILLION*??? Go figure   Apparently there's people dying in the world yet we have a billion to spend on a building,
		
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I received the following figures by email (many of you will probably have received the same). I haven't done the maths to check if this is absolutely correct, but I have no reason to doubt it and I guess its easy to check if you have half an hour and a calculator with lots of zero space. Nowadays, the figure one billion just seems to trip off our politicians tongues. But next time you hear someone talk about one billion like it is pocket change, consider the following:
One billion seconds ago it was 1959. One billion minutes ago Jesus was alive. One billion hours ago it was the stone age.


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## cm_qs (Mar 18, 2013)

I think people fail to understand the scale of the problem.......

Based on the figures that the punters on the telly were bandying about then , over a period of 25 years, Comic Relief have raised  circa Â£700m  of which about 60% (Â£420 m) has been spent in Africa and the rest in the UK to improve countless millions of lives. This Â£420m  is spread over a population in the region of 1,200,000,000.

Our local General Hospital  has an estimated repayment cost through the PFI initiative of circa Â£750m over an equivalent 25 year period and serves a local population of  maybe 120,000.......and all anyone ever has to say about the place is how **** it is. I disagree.

So at that rate we've  given enough to Africa to build half of an ordinary UK hospital that would be ten thousand times busier based on population size.

Which is better value in human terms? 

The Â£5  i texted to Comic Relief or the Â£5 that it cost to park for a couple of hours  at the hospital when I was visiting  me old grampa?


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			How did the developed world become so? Did we sit about getting handouts to build wells, malaria nets and vaccinations? OR did we make them ourselves? Did we develop new skills and techniques to overcome out environmental restrictions?
		
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And how did the Western world do that?

Oh yes, by raping the natural resources from Africa and enslaving its peoples, leaving it reliant on making the most of a climate that the isn't conducive to supporting the life it hosts when we were finished. Oh yes, I forgot, we also lent them money at massive interest though a lot of that was thankfully wiped out. We owed them that much.

You really need to open your mind to these people.


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## DappaDonDave (Mar 18, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			And how did the Western world do that?

Oh yes, by raping the natural resources from Africa and enslaving its peoples, leaving it reliant on making the most of a climate that the isn't conducive to supporting the life it hosts when we were finished. Oh yes, I forgot, we also lent them money at massive interest though a lot of that was thankfully wiped out. We owed them that much.

You really need to open your mind to these people.
		
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And how did we develop the means to exploit them?...go further back...we obviously built something to get to Africa...

If we help everyone the world will become over populated, we'll completely run out of resource


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## Smiffy (Mar 18, 2013)

cm_qs said:



			I think people fail to understand the scale of the problem.......

Based on the figures that the punters on the telly were bandying about then , over a period of 25 years, Comic Relief have raised  circa Â£700m  of which about 60% (Â£420 m) has been spent in Africa
		
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And of course, we (as a nation) and Comic Relief are the only people raising money for Africa??? What about Oxfam that went before, and all of the other countries (other than ourselves) in the "civilised" world that have raised money for Africa over the years?????
Billions and billions have been channeled into Africa over the years. Yet nothing changes. It's still the same as it ever was.
Somethings proper broke.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2013)

The starving nations either need a bigger pie or they need less people eating it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2013)

bobmac said:



			The starving nations either need a bigger pie or they need less people eating it.
		
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Same in the UK.


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## JustOne (Mar 18, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			If we help everyone the world will become over populated, we'll completely run out of resource
		
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That's not really true actually. We would need to change the way we live our lives though.... and it's happening all the time, only very, very, very slowly.


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## MarkA (Mar 19, 2013)

Slime said:



			I get the impression that all our money is just prolonging the agony. Unless the money can be used to change the weather or educate them to stop having so many children, I fear for them. Between 1990 & 2008 the population of Africa increased by 55%, more than anywhere else in the world!



Please don't condemn someone as a criminal just because their charities of choice differ from yours.



'Africa, the world's poorest continent, also has it's highest birth rate. A woman in sub-Saharan Africa will give birth to an average of 5.2 children in her lifetime. Africa's population of 1 billion is predicted to *MORE THAN DOUBLE* in the next forty years (http://www.prb.org/pdf11/2011population-data-sheet_eng.pdf) to 2.3 billion, accounting for about *half of projected global growth over that period*.

Africa  is growing fast because it is young. The top 10 youngest populations in  the world are all from the continent, led by Niger (an estimated 48.9%  below the age of 14), Uganda and Mali. Many will have big families,  knowing that despite ongoing efforts to combat malnutrition and HIV,  *there is a strong risk many of their children will die*'.
They need to be educated as to how to become self-sufficient with the resources that are available to them, and that means they must just stop having so many children.
I don't think we're helping as much as we think we are.





:thup:

*Slime*.
		
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Great Post.
Until you get to the root of the problem things will never change. The human animal is adaptable to change when times are bad populations dwindle, when they are good they grow - nature regulates its resources, by pouring aid into starving and ill kids you only prolong the agony(the pictures you see are heartbreaking but the message still isnt getting through there isnt enough food , birth rates have got to fall there are simply too many mouths to feed and that can only mean one thing  - Red Nose day is not the answer


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## JustOne (Mar 19, 2013)

MarkA said:



			nature regulates its resources, by pouring aid into starving and ill kids you only prolong the agony(the pictures you see are heartbreaking but the message still isnt getting through there isnt enough food
		
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Not having the funds to improve your agricultural output isn't 'nature', I guess in your world WAR is natural selection?


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## MarkA (Mar 20, 2013)

Actually no it isnt - it doesnt matter how about how much funding is put in place when the countries are drought ridden - no amount of money will ever sort that problem out. Natural selection is natural selection ie weather,disease and crop failures and these funds you refer to invariably end up the hands of a corrupt regime to buy more arms. You cant keep pouring money into countries that simply wont ever be able to support themselves due to climate and over population


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## MarkA (Mar 20, 2013)

And have you ever though all these natural disasters, droughts, famine, crop failures might just be natures way of telling us there's too many people on the planet?


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## JustOne (Mar 20, 2013)

MarkA said:



			And have you ever though all these natural disasters, droughts, famine, crop failures might just be natures way of telling us there's too many people on the planet?
		
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I don't believe in fairies.


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## stevie_r (Mar 20, 2013)

I have no idea what that comment is meant to mean


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## JustOne (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I have no idea what that comment is meant to mean 

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About fairies?


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

JustOne said:



			About fairies?
		
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yes, about fairies.


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## JustOne (Mar 21, 2013)

Fairies don't exist, neither does 'Mother nature' or the Easter Bunny.

An earthquake doesn't happen because there's too many people on the planet, or crop failures. Things (climate change?) might be related to the amount of pollution we are pumping into the air but not how many people there are. There's plenty of space, more than enough for a load more people, and we could easily provide for everyone WITHOUT having to pump a ton of crap into the air - it's POLITICS that prevents it.


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Fairies don't exist, neither does 'Mother nature' or the Easter Bunny.

An earthquake doesn't happen because there's too many people on the planet, or crop failures. Things (climate change?) might be related to the amount of pollution we are pumping into the air but not how many people there are. There's plenty of space, more than enough for a load more people, and we could easily provide for everyone WITHOUT having to pump a ton of crap into the air - it's POLITICS that prevents it.
		
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Ok, for 'mother nature' lets read 'natural selection'.  The planet has a finite capacity


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## JustOne (Mar 21, 2013)

Finite capacity?

Example 1) For argument sake lets say there's 8 billion people on the planet, well there's 40 million living just in Tokyo..... 200 Tokyo's and you've got 8 billion. You don't think there's room for 200 cities in the entire world? or 400?

Example 2) Take every house that exists right now across the entire world and make it twice as high (your house becomes 4 floors instead of 2 floors) now you've doubled the capacity of the world to 16 billion, another family could (in theory) have a 2 floor house right above yours without actually taking up any more space.... no need to build new houses on those fields, save them for food production, go up rather than out. It's economics that makes us go 'out' rather than up, and economics is politics.

Example 3) It has been calculated that after a certain amount of people are on the planet they will actually die as quickly as they are being born, I don't know that exact figure but the general concensus is that population growth would slow down, even more so if we bring people out of poverty.... they just wouldn't have 5.4 kids if they didn't have malaria, famine,.... JOBS etc etc


Just out of interest, what figure would YOU put on the planets finite capacity?


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Finite capacity?

Example 1) For argument sake lets say there's 8 billion people on the planet, well there's 40 million living just in Tokyo..... 200 Tokyo's and you've got 8 billion. You don't think there's room for 200 cities in the entire world? or 400?

Example 2) Take every house that exists right now across the entire world and make it twice as high (your house becomes 4 floors instead of 2 floors) now you've doubled the capacity of the world to 16 billion, another family could (in theory) have a 2 floor house right above yours without actually taking up any more space.... no need to build new houses on those fields, save them for food production, go up rather than out. It's economics that makes us go 'out' rather than up, and economics is politics.

Example 3) It has been calculated that after a certain amount of people are on the planet they will actually die as quickly as they are being born, I don't know that exact figure but the general concensus is that population growth would slow down, even more so if we bring people out of poverty.... they just wouldn't have 5.4 kids if they didn't have malaria, famine,.... JOBS etc etc


Just out of interest, what figure would YOU put on the planets finite capacity?
		
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Example 1, But it's not just about space is it?  It's also about natural resources.  
Example 2, hey, what we could do is stack housing 20 high, on no, wait, we tried that failed social experiment.
Example 3, Kindly show me your source of evidence for this claim.  Let's not forget that a significant percentage of the population of Africa have never had, nor would want, 'jobs' as you use the term.  A significant majority exist through subsistence farming, herding, fishing etc as they have done for centuries and that's where we have the problem of natural resources v population growth.


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## JustOne (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Example 1, But it's not just about space is it?  It's also about natural resources.  
Example 2, hey, what we could do is stack housing 20 high, on no, wait, we tried that failed social experiment.
Example 3, Kindly show me your source of evidence for this claim.  Let's not forget that a significant percentage of the population of Africa have never had, nor would want, 'jobs' as you use the term.  A significant majority exist through subsistence farming, herding, fishing etc as they have done for centuries and that's where we have the problem of natural resources v population growth.
		
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1) I'm not sure what natural resources it is that we lack? Which ones are you referring to?

2) Stack houses 20 high isn't going to work NOW, but it will when it needs to. You and I will both be dead by then but future generations won't be so phased by it, Tokyo would be an example as is anyone who lives in a major city (eg: New York). If you're a Country bumpkin (or unsocial) then YES it's certainly going to take some getting used to. Previous projects certainly weren't effective because they provided CHEAP housing, better standards would be required... did you never hear of a penthouse suite? they don't put those on the ground floor 

3) You don't think Africans want jobs? Sure, they want FOOD right now, but then they want shelter and opportunity (basically a FUTURE for themselves or their children - as we all do).


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2013)

JustOne said:



			3) You don't think Africans want jobs? Sure, they want FOOD right now, but then they want shelter and opportunity (basically a FUTURE for themselves or their children - as we all do).
		
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Good point. This post is now veering scarily towards completely misunderstanding and then utterly misappropriating the theory of natural selection, and using it as a justification for letting swathes of the human population die.  Indeed almost justifying it as 'natural'.  Truly very sad


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