# Scotland Independance vote



## chrisd (Jan 11, 2012)

It's all starting to heat up now, I can understand to a point, that if Scotland want to pull out of the Union that is their decision and they should be able to vote accordingly. 

I have to ask though - if the ballot paper is to ask whether the Scots want the D Max option on the ballot paper then - why are we English not getting a vote??


Chris


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## Imurg (Jan 11, 2012)

And why do we not have an English Parliament...?
Scots, Welsh and N.Irish have....?

Could be a stand-up fight between Salmond and Cammo - should be good for a laugh.


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## Dodger (Jan 11, 2012)

If you vote in an Election you generally vote for where you live don't you?

Folk that live in Devon don't get to have a say in what happens on Tyneside....

A lot of exiled Scot's are arguing that they want to have a say.....tough luck is my take on it,I am all for it but if Salmond has his way I won't get a say in it which is tough luck.That said there are plenty English who have seen the light and are living in our wonderful country that will get a say in it.


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## Captainron (Jan 11, 2012)

Dodger makes a very good point. Agree wholeheartedly. I don't vote in the South African elections because I chose to move over here. I might not agree with everything that happens in South Africa but my opinion counts for nothing there anymore.  I wonder if the vote was extended to see what the English thought how big the turnout would be. Most of the people round here don't care who runs their constituency judging by the last figures so how much heed will they pay to the potential Independence of Scotland? 
I might go and watch Braveheart for a bit of inspiration


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## chrisd (Jan 11, 2012)

Dodger said:



			If you vote in an Election you generally vote for where you live don't you?

Folk that live in Devon don't get to have a say in what happens on Tyneside....

A lot of exiled Scot's are arguing that they want to have a say.....tough luck is my take on it,I am all for it but if Salmond has his way I won't get a say in it which is tough luck.That said there are plenty English who have seen the light and are living in our wonderful country that will get a say in it.
		
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The point surely is, we English don't have, understandably, a say in Scotland wishing to vote on leaving the Union. We could ask to have our own vote on England leaving the Union if we wanted to. The question I was asking is, if the vote that Salmond proposes is for the D Max option, why do we not get to vote on whether we, the English, agree to as well, and I guess you would also have to include the Welsh and Irish as well, although, as has been pointed out, we are the only country who doen't have devolved powers ourselves.


Chris


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Mr Salmond is a very very intelligent and astute man. He's not some ginger haired, porridge eating, kilt wearing, irn bru guzzling idiot that a lot of the English press like to think.

Interesting times ahead. Plus he got the go ahead rubber stamped, signed sealed and delivered for Mr Trumps new course!


:thup:


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## chris661 (Jan 11, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Mr Salmond is a very very intelligent and astute man. He's not some ginger haired, porridge eating, kilt wearing, irn bru guzzling idiot that a lot of the English press like to think.

Interesting times ahead. Plus he got the go ahead rubber stamped, signed sealed and delivered for Mr Trumps new course!


:thup:
		
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But he is a buffoon if he thinks independence will cure all Scotlands ills.


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## chrisd (Jan 11, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Mr Salmond is a very very intelligent and astute man. He's not some ginger haired, porridge eating, kilt wearing, irn bru guzzling idiot that a lot of the English press like to think.

Interesting times ahead. Plus he got the go ahead rubber stamped, signed sealed and delivered for Mr Trumps new course!


:thup:
		
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He was rightly described on the BBC news the other day as one of the most astute politicians in the whole of Europe and I believe that is accurate



chris661 said:



			But he is a buffoon if he thinks independence will cure all Scotlands ills.
		
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He doesn't, what he wants is DMax in my opinion, only 34 to 38% of Scots are likely to vote for a split of the Union whereas DMax is likely to be an overwhelming yes vote


Chris


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## Hobbit (Jan 11, 2012)

To me this is like the debate about should "we" be in Europe. Either we're fully in or fully out, this half hearted faff achieves nowt. And personally I'd say the same should apply to a Scottish referendum. Either a wholly committed part of the Union or go their own way.

Why can't Westminster make the decision for Salmond, i.e. give the Scots a referendum on in or out?


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## HotDogAssassin (Jan 11, 2012)

If it does go through can we rebuild the wall and make it a bit higher next time? :ears:


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

chris661 said:



			But he is a buffoon if he thinks independence will cure all Scotlands ills.
		
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I'm not sure he thinks that at all.Scotland is the sick man of Europe with shameful health records.Being independent and not saddled with the likes of trident or hugely expensive wars might allow our health issues to be addressed.

And leaving aside the oil/gas vs Barnett argument, Scotland can raise finances thru all the same ways the The current UK govt does...VAT,tax etc.We'd be entitled to a proportion of Uk assets but also be due a proportion of UK deficit.

We'd also be reliant on trade with England, and vice versa, so it's not as if we'd pull up the gate.

Interesting that Salmond wants 16 & 17 year olds to be able to vote, and that the coalition govt does not.

I'm excited by this upcoming debate, hopefully as many people as possible get engaged by it and leave personalities out of it.2014 could be the most important year in The UK's entire history, the right choice has to be made.


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## bigslice (Jan 11, 2012)

HotDogAssassin said:



			If it does go through can we rebuild the wall and make it a bit higher next time? :ears:
		
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lol but leave a wee gap for our advance party to return


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## HotDogAssassin (Jan 11, 2012)

We'd also be reliant on trade with England, and vice versa, so it's not as if we'd pull up the gate.​

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So if we stop buying Whisky and Shortbread, Scotland are stuffed!


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## HotDogAssassin (Jan 11, 2012)

bigslice said:



			lol but leave a wee gap for our advance party to return
		
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It's ok, I think we've still got some catapults in Cumbria, so we'll get them back to you.


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Interesting that Salmond wants 16 & 17 year olds to be able to vote, and that the coalition govt does not.

I'm excited by this upcoming debate, hopefully as many people as possible get engaged by it and leave personalities out of it.2014 could be the most important year in The UK's entire history, the right choice has to be made.
		
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The point about 16/17 year olds is very astute by Salmond as people of that age tend to be more nationalistic without considering the wider implications.  Therefore, I'd imagine it will boost the numbers voting in favour.

A number of my friends were all for independence when we were that age but their enthusiasm has waned somewhat over the years when they can appreciate the consequences with a more mature head.

What do you think the "right choice" is?

Obviously, now I live in England, I am out of it but I have a bad feeling about it all.  I must stress that is not borne out of any research etc just a gut feeling!


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## Val (Jan 11, 2012)

Salmond is a bright guy but he is an ego maniac, independance for us in Scotland is wrong and it would cost the Scottish tax payer an absolute fortune I reckon.

All this talk of stop buying whiskey and Scotland is stuffed is absolute nonsense, Scotland could probably cope on it's own, we generate more to the UK GDP per head of population than is done in England and Wales but that Im afraid is not good enough to be independant.

British by birth but Scottish by the grace of god, Im as patriotic ass the next Scot but im not stupid.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 11, 2012)

I am happy to let the Scottish people decide their destiny, as long as the debate is clear and open... which I doubt as both sides have political agendas to pursue. Twas ever thus, I suppose.

We'll keep the gas and oil though for England though, obviously.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

Valentino said:



			it would cost the Scottish tax payer an absolute fortune I reckon.

Scotland could probably cope on it's own, we generate more to the UK GDP per head of population than is done in England and Wales

 but im not stupid.
		
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Oooft.nice contradictions there mate!


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## chrisd (Jan 11, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Im as patriotic ass the next Scot but im not stupid.
		
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I feel a poll coming on  



Chris


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## lobthewedge (Jan 11, 2012)

Totally agree, Salmond is a very intelligent man, a hugely effective politician and in my opinion a good first minister for Scotland.  I just wish he would stick to running Scotland, fighting our corner and leave this independance pish well alone.  

He will never win a legitimate in/out referendum, the majority of Scots see the benefit of being a British citizen and want to remain in the Union.  So it is greatly disappointing to see him trying to weasel his way to a win by allowing easily influenced children to vote and also tapping into the Bannockburn anniversary in 2014.  It is too important a question and should not be played with.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

I am not fussed either way, but any devolution has to be 100%, and not a half measure. Scotland either stands on it's own, or remains part of the union. Full financial independence only. They can't just cherry pick, as that would be just stuffing the English tax payer once again. Obviously it doesn't effect the Welsh tax payer, as there aren't any.


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## Hobbit (Jan 11, 2012)

I'd say give them independance then invade.... at least it would make a good film


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## Val (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Oooft.nice contradictions there mate!
		
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  We do generate more but it wouldn't be enough I feel hence why I said it would cost the Scottish tax payer a fortune.  Contradictions? Maybe a bit


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## Val (Jan 11, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I feel a poll coming on      Chris
		
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  Very good, im glad you paid attention


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			The point about 16/17 year olds is very astute by Salmond as people of that age tend to be more nationalistic without considering the wider implications.  Therefore, I'd imagine it will boost the numbers voting in favour.

A number of my friends were all for independence when we were that age but their enthusiasm has waned somewhat over the years when they can appreciate the consequences with a more mature head.

What do you think the "right choice" is?

Obviously, now I live in England, I am out of it but I have a bad feeling about it all.  I must stress that is not borne out of any research etc just a gut feeling!
		
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The right choice? I'm probably not the right person to ask given I'm very keen on gaining independence.I can give my opinion and give figures to show that I'm not just talking keek,though.I'll chuck something up during the day, but with the caveat of understanding that I like England, my dad and my sister are English, my other sister lives in London, I go on holiday to England and think generally, it's pretty bloody good country.

As for the question on 16/17 year olds voting.I think handled correctly, it's good they have the chance to vote.Impartial opinion given in school ( hard given most modern studies teachers are left-wing and probably prone to independence) the chance to debate the pros and cons before any referendum and the opportunity to shape the nation they'll be in control of eventually.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

Valentino said:



			We do generate more but it wouldn't be enough I feel hence why I said it would cost the Scottish tax payer a fortune.  Contradictions? Maybe a bit 

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So if our GDP is higher than the rest of The UK ( and lets assume that companies won't instantly leave an independent Scotland), and we're able to raise more money thru VAT,corporation tax,oil/gas revenues,NI contributions, I'm not sure how it could cost any tax payer a fortune.


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			The right choice? I'm probably not the right person to ask given I'm very keen on gaining independence.I can give my opinion and give figures to show that I'm not just talking keek,though.I'll chuck something up during the day, but with the caveat of understanding that I like England, my dad and my sister are English, my other sister lives in London, I go on holiday to England and think generally, it's pretty bloody good country.

As for the question on 16/17 year olds voting.I think handled correctly, it's good they have the chance to vote.Impartial opinion given in school ( hard given most modern studies teachers are left-wing and probably prone to independence) the chance to debate the pros and cons before any referendum and the opportunity to shape the nation they'll be in control of eventually.
		
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You sound like a failed politician!

Every time a Scottish independence topic comes up I can bet my last $ knowing I've got a guaranteed return that you'll be onto it like jack flash!

Do you have an alarm that activates every time a post appears or is it your spidey senses??


:sbox:


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

thecraw said:



			You sound like a failed politician!

Every time a Scottish independence topic comes up I can bet my last $ knowing I've got a guaranteed return that you'll be onto it like jack flash!

Do you have an alarm that activates every time a post appears or is it your spidey senses??


:sbox:
		
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It's a topic that interests me greatly, it's not the only topic I've commented on recently, so I'm not sure what your problem is?

You come across as a bit of a cyber-bully tbh, not that it bothers me, just an observation.


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			It's a topic that interests me greatly, it's not the only topic I've commented on recently, so I'm not sure what your problem is?

You come across as a bit of a cyber-bully tbh, not that it bothers me, just an observation.
		
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Yes. 

Next.

Chips'n'cheese please!


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## StuartD (Jan 11, 2012)

thecraw said:



			!

Every time a Scottish independence topic comes up I can bet my last $ knowing I've got a guaranteed return that you'll be onto it like jack flash!

Do you have an alarm that activates every time a post appears or is it your spidey senses??


:sbox:
		
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Adi2Dassler, I too thought you would be along and have noted you as for  independence, but i have always found your points (backed up with facts and figures) well worth a read.  I must admit as being rather guilty of not looking into the pros/cons of it at all.

As someone who works in the defence industry the thought of indepenence does scare me from a selfish personal viewpoint regarding my job security


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

StuartD said:



			Adi2Dassler, I too thought you would be along and have noted you as for  independence, but i have always found your points (backed up with facts and figures) well worth a read.  I must admit as being rather guilty of not looking into the pros/cons of it at all.

As someone who works in the defence industry the thought of indepenence does scare me from a selfish personal viewpoint regarding my job security
		
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Careful, he'll be having his haggis and stovies for lunch just now. I would be inclined to agree with you Stuart that he argues his view well enough but since he took it the wrong way I'm in a huff. 

Scottish independence and Scottish fitba and adi rises like the phoenix from the flames!


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## Val (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			So if our GDP is higher than the rest of The UK ( and lets assume that companies won't instantly leave an independent Scotland), and we're able to raise more money thru VAT,corporation tax,oil/gas revenues,NI contributions, I'm not sure how it could cost any tax payer a fortune.
		
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Why wouldn't it? The only reason we could afford it currently with same tax would be going into debt, the UK need more tax from us as it is (if we are honest) to reduce the debt level of the country, the UK as a Union has as high a debt level as any. Do we want that in Scotland and risk pulling a Greece/Ireland etc.

We have a higher unemployment level per % in Scotland than in England so less taxpayers and more benefits to pay, who pays that?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Careful, he'll be having his haggis and stovies for lunch just now. I would be inclined to agree with you Stuart that he argues his view well enough but since he took it the wrong way I'm in a huff. 

Scottish independence and Scottish fitba and adi rises like the phoenix from the flames!
		
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Home made stilton and broccoli soup with tiger bread, actually 

If I did take your last post the wrong way I apologise, but it's difficult to see how I could have taken it any other way.


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Why wouldn't it? The only reason we could afford it currently with same tax would be going into debt, the UK need more tax from us as it is (if we are honest) to reduce the debt level of the country, the UK as a Union has as high a debt level as any. Do we want that in Scotland and risk pulling a Greece/Ireland etc.

We have a higher unemployment level per % in Scotland than in England so less taxpayers and more benefits to pay, who pays that?
		
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These are good points.....

An example, perhaps, of something that hasn't been considered is the effect of the tax structure put in place by any Scottish government.  If it is unnattractive for companies will they then move to England?  Not a huge logistical problem for big enough corporates but a nightmare for long-term employment prospects...

Again, I must stress that I haven't really looked into it, these are just initial thoughts.

For what it's worth, I also think that the complexity of the issue should preclude 16/17 year olds to vote for this.  Most of them will still be in school, without much real life experience or understanding of tax burdens, employment prospects, how government budgets affect families etc so I fail to see how they are in a position to objectively consider the issue and vote accordingly.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

When I was 18 I voted for the free beer and fags party in the local Portsmouth elections. This is what you get when you allow kids to vote.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 11, 2012)

This thread shows the dangers... Scotland gets independence, then a civil war breaks out between the clans. :mmm:


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## StuartD (Jan 11, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			When I was 18 I voted for the free beer and fags party in the local Portsmouth elections. This is what you get when you allow kids to vote.
		
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I was worse. I voted Tory


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			This thread shows the dangers... Scotland gets independence, then a civil war breaks out between the clans. :mmm:
		
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Its ok I'm part of the Colquhoun clan, my ancestral home is Rossdhu House, now the clubhouse for the magnificent Loch Lomond golf club. While they're all fighting I'll be golfing and no I won't sign you on!


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Why wouldn't it? The only reason we could afford it currently with same tax would be going into debt, the UK need more tax from us as it is (if we are honest) to reduce the debt level of the country, the UK as a Union has as high a debt level as any. Do we want that in Scotland and risk pulling a Greece/Ireland etc.

We have a higher unemployment level per % in Scotland than in England so less taxpayers and more benefits to pay, who pays that?
		
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At the minute any VAT,corporation tax,NI contributions and revenue from gas/oil goes directly to London.

We get the yearly Barnett payment in return.It's a guestimate, but lets say that Barnett=oil/gas revenue (I'm not entirely comfortable on an independent Scotland leaning soley on North Sea oil/gas, unlike many pro-indy people)

So that leaves VAT,corporation tax,NI contributions (I'm sure there are more, but lets use them as examples) These additional funds will go to the scottish parliament to increase the coffers the parliament have to use.

We will have less tax payers than the UK, but also less overheads, it's all proportional.

I do agree that unemployment is too high in Scotland, it has been for years.There is an under-class of people who seem to live their lifes on benefits.It's not that there aren't any jobs, it's that some people seem to think the jobs available are beneath them.I'd take a more Thatcher-esque view of these people and reduce benefits and make them do voluntary work within their community to earn it.*

*This opinion obviously doesn't include those genuinely unable to work.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			For what it's worth, I also think that the complexity of the issue should preclude 16/17 year olds to vote for this.  Most of them will still be in school, without much real life experience or understanding of tax burdens, employment prospects, how government budgets affect families etc so I fail to see how they are in a position to objectively consider the issue and vote accordingly.
		
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Alot of 16/17 year old also pay tax and contribute their fair share.The age thing is a bit of a dummy for me.the whole idea of independence is new to everyone, so everyone needs to be in full possession of the facts, whether your 16 or 46.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

StuartD said:



			As someone who works in the defence industry the thought of indepenence does scare me from a selfish personal viewpoint regarding my job security
		
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Understandable.There are many areas that no-one has an answer for just now, and the question of armed forces/defense industry is a biggie.
I get the impression that Scottish men and women make up a disproportionally large part of the armed forces of The UK.Would The UK allow them to continue to serve?Who would be responsible for redundancies of a Scottish resident serving in a UK army?

If you work for Ferranti or Babcocks in Scotland, where does the work come from?Would a new Scotland finance re-training for someone like yourself to work in renewables or for one of the many new companies investing in Scotland, like Mitsubishi?

I'll see if I can find any info, and if I'm being too boring, tell me (except craw ;-) )


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Alot of 16/17 year old also pay tax and contribute their fair share.The age thing is a bit of a dummy for me.the whole idea of independence is new to everyone, so everyone needs to be in full possession of the facts, whether your 16 or 46.
		
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If they pay tax it will be a miniscule amount from a part time job (in most cases).

Most 16/17 year olds are in school.

When I was 16/17 I would probably have voted for full independence.

Now, having 15 years more life experience, I probably would not.

All very well saying it's "their future" but if, 10/15 years down the line they realise it's a mistake, what can they do?


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## stef92 (Jan 11, 2012)

I must say this interests me greatly seeing as I am a sassenach living in Scotlandâ€¦

However, I just can't get my head round it all, and I am into politics too!

What I do think though is that mr cameron is trying to get a referendum now rather than in 2014 on the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn, which is a bit sly imo as surely it is the scottish parliament's choice when to have it.

I personally would think it would be a mistake for scotland to go independent for both "sides". I have no basis for this, it is just a gut feeling!

But one thing for sure, I think I would rather have Salmon as my PM than Mr Cameronâ€¦


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## GB72 (Jan 11, 2012)

Found this article that I found funny

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-exactly-the-same,-warn-experts-201201114752/


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I get the impression that Scottish men and women make up a disproportionally large part of the armed forces of The UK.Would The UK allow them to continue to serve?Who would be responsible for redundancies of a Scottish resident serving in a UK army?
		
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Why would one country want or allow soldiers from another to serve in their armed forces? I know there is a precedent with the Gurkhas, but a lot of them are being laid off now any way. 

It is things like this that need sorting, in my view, as they have not been aired properly. I get the impression the Cameron will bend over on this, and the English tax payer will get shafted.

Once Scotland is gone, it should be English jobs for English people. We don't have other members of the EU serving in the military?


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## Snelly (Jan 11, 2012)

I am all for Scottish independence.   

Let Scotland stand on its own two feet is my view.  I would love to know how a new Scottish independent parliament would tackle the big issues facing the country.  For example, one in five Scottish children is in poverty i read in the Scotsman yesterday.  Terrible. 


By coincidence, I was in Glasgow yesterday.  Any Scottish architect or planner employed between 1960 and 1990 has a lot to answer for.  Bulgarian buildings have more character.   In the grey skies of December, the housing estates looked utterly depressing.   No wonder everyone likes a drink or two......


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## Bikky73 (Jan 11, 2012)

chrisd said:



			It's all starting to heat up now, I can understand to a point, that if Scotland want to pull out of the Union that is their decision and they should be able to vote accordingly. 

I have to ask though - if the ballot paper is to ask whether the Scots want the D Max option on the ballot paper then - why are we English not getting a vote??

Chris
		
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And why can you put scottish, irish, welsh on a passport application but english have to put british.?

If the Scottish want out, fine, but they should Pay us for the setup of their NHS/Police/Fire services.  They also should have their own funding, and NOT get handouts from England.  And all Illegal foreigners need to go home, that means If you don't have a work/study permit or on holiday then sorry but back to Scotland......

Hope they've thought it through properly.


 But as I live so close to the border and regularly holiday/trip there I hope there's not too much change. (And if I was an MP I'd vote for personal interest not the best for the country)


*edit*
Oh and Scottish National Party and the rest.... Why no English National Party? only a British National Party, whom are said to be racist because they want Britain for the British... Same as every country world wide.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

Bikky73 said:



			And why can you put scottish, irish, welsh on a passport application but english have to put british.?

If the Scottish want out, fine, but they should Pay us for the setup of their NHS/Police/Fire services.  They also should have their own funding, and NOT get handouts from England.  And all Illegal foreigners need to go home, that means If you don't have a work/study permit or on holiday then sorry but back to Scotland......

Hope they've thought it through properly.
But as I live so close to the border and regularly holiday/trip there I hope there's not too much change. (And if I was an MP I'd vote for personal interest not the best for the country)
		
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Welcome to the debate, Mr Griffin.

I'm pretty sure the taxes paid by residents of Scotland have contributed to set up of the NHS/Police/fire services as much as English or Welsh taxes have.


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## Hobbit (Jan 11, 2012)

Last time I looked at various revenues/taxes, Scotland contributes approx Â£9million more than it receives from the Treasury, which at first glances looks wonderful. However, how much will the EU want as a nett contribution based on revenues/GDP(oil mainly) generated by a wealthy country like Scotland. Further to that, I can't see the world banks giving either Scotland or England/Wales/N. Ireland the Triple AAA credit rating they currently have if independance comes about. At this moment in time I'd vote against independance... assuming they'd let the English have a say on the break up of the Union.


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## chris661 (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Welcome to the debate, Mr Griffin.

I'm pretty sure the taxes paid by residents of Scotland have contributed to set up of the NHS/Police/fire services as much as English or Welsh taxes have.
		
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How can that be so when there is around 10% of the population in Scotland? DOes that mean we only get 10% of the emergency services? 

Still no one EVER has answered the question of what happens when the oil runs out? 55% income tax all round.


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## thecraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Bikky73 said:



			And why can you put scottish, irish, welsh on a passport application but english have to put british.?

If the Scottish want out, fine, but they should Pay us for the setup of their NHS/Police/Fire services.  They also should have their own funding, and NOT get handouts from England.  And all Illegal foreigners need to go home, that means If you don't have a work/study permit or on holiday then sorry but back to Scotland......

Hope they've thought it through properly.


 But as I live so close to the border and regularly holiday/trip there I hope there's not too much change. (And if I was an MP I'd vote for personal interest not the best for the country)


*edit*
Oh and Scottish National Party and the rest.... Why no English National Party? only a British National Party, whom are said to be racist because they want Britain for the British... Same as every country world wide.
		
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Idiotic post.


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## lobthewedge (Jan 11, 2012)

What happens to the overseas territories, surely Scotland has a stake in them? 

How do they get divided up?  Do we get 10% of Gibraltar?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

chris661 said:



			How can that be so when there is around 10% of the population in Scotland? DOes that mean we only get 10% of the emergency services? 

Still no one EVER has answered the question of what happens when the oil runs out? 55% income tax all round.

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I'd say yes, 10% of the population probably gets 10% of the services.As an example, I'd guess that for every one police officer in Edinburgh, there would probably be 10 in London ( if not more)

And regards to oil/gas, I'm keen to take that out of the equation but it does seem to be a major component of the debate, so i'll fire up something up in a mo.


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## Val (Jan 11, 2012)

Bikky73 said:



			And why can you put scottish, irish, welsh on a passport application but english have to put british.?

If the Scottish want out, fine, but they should Pay us for the setup of their NHS/Police/Fire services.  They also should have their own funding, and NOT get handouts from England.  And all Illegal foreigners need to go home, that means If you don't have a work/study permit or on holiday then sorry but back to Scotland......

Hope they've thought it through properly.


 But as I live so close to the border and regularly holiday/trip there I hope there's not too much change. (And if I was an MP I'd vote for personal interest not the best for the country)


*edit*
Oh and Scottish National Party and the rest.... Why no English National Party? only a British National Party, whom are said to be racist because they want Britain for the British... Same as every country world wide.
		
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Racist, do us a favour and stay where you are and go elsewhere on holiday.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

OK, I realise I'll be getting tedious about this now, so I'll fire some stats up and leave it ( for a while)

Scotlands population makes up 8.5% of The UK population
Scotland GDP is 11.5% ( excluding oil and gas revenue)
We outperform the rest of The UK by 3% in production

Oil and gas revenue for 2009 = Â£13.9 Billion

Scotland would liable for 10% of The UK current debt, but also due 10% of any assets The UK hold.

Since 2006 upto 2010, The GER ( Govt Expenses & Revenue report)
Scotland = Â£3.5 Billion surplus
UK = Â£72 Billion Deficit 

Exports in 2009
Scotland increased by 13 %
UK increased by 0.05%

In regard to oil running out in the next 30-40 years, a myth.Estimates suggest 100 years worth of oil production is more realistic...it may be harder to get to, but technology improves daily.New oil fields found off Rockall last year.

Trident replacements estimated to cost Â£100Billion, something Scotland would not burdened with.

Whiskey exports last year approx Â£3Billion with Â£700 Million in excise paid to London, another asset by-passing Scotland.

So combine all the above the capacity to claim VAT/Corporation tax/NI contributions...and reduce them to a level to make inward investment ( and job creation) more attractive to the likes of Mitsubushi and amazon, the case for independence is solid imo.

I've missed out wind/wave renewables because I don't have any figures, but we're supposedly at the forefront of that,too.

Ask yourself this-

Why does a political party who are generally despised in Scotland with almost zero support be so keen to keep Scotland as part of the Union?An England free of the SNP/Scottish Labour would almost guarantee a Conservative govt in England for a decade or so.  

There must be a reason.It must be money, unless anyone can suggest anything else?


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			OK, I realise I'll be getting tedious about this now, so I'll fire some stats up and leave it ( for a while)

Scotlands population makes up 8.5% of The UK population
Scotland GDP is 11.5% ( excluding oil and gas revenue)
We outperform the rest of The UK by 3% in production

Oil and gas revenue for 2009 = Â£13.9 Billion

Scotland would liable for 10% of The UK current debt, but also due 10% of any assets The UK hold.

Since 2006 upto 2010, The GER ( Govt Expenses & Revenue report)
Scotland = Â£3.5 Billion surplus
UK = Â£72 Billion Deficit 

Exports in 2009
Scotland increased by 13 %
UK increased by 0.05%

In regard to oil running out in the next 30-40 years, a myth.Estimates suggest 100 years worth of oil production is more realistic...it may be harder to get to, but technology improves daily.New oil fields found off Rockall last year.

Trident replacements estimated to cost Â£100Billion, something Scotland would not burdened with.

Whiskey exports last year approx Â£3Billion with Â£700 Million in excise paid to London, another asset by-passing Scotland.

So combine all the above the capacity to claim VAT/Corporation tax/NI contributions...and reduce them to a level to make inward investment ( and job creation) more attractive to the likes of Mitsubushi and amazon, the case for independence is solid imo.

I've missed out wind/wave renewables because I don't have any figures, but we're supposedly at the forefront of that,too.

Ask yourself this-

Why does a political party who are generally despised in Scotland with almost zero support be so keen to keep Scotland as part of the Union?An England free of the SNP/Scottish Labour would almost guarantee a Conservative govt in England for a decade or so.  

There must be a reason.It must be money, unless anyone can suggest anything else?
		
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Stats, love them, they are my job after all!

Out of genuine interest, does the Â£3.5bn surplus for Scotland include or exclude the Oil and Gas?

The point about Trident is fair to a point, albeit I assume Scotland would need to have some form of armed forces?  What are the start up costs for that (if you know, I see you mentioned the forces was a bit of an unknown earlier in the thread)?


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## SwingSlow (Jan 11, 2012)

I think the issue of the division of the national debt is "interesting" given the amount recently incurred to bail out RBS and Lloyds as a result of the HBOS rescue. Both Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland (just a brief reminder of what the acronyms stand for) were strongly acquisitive and certainly with RBS aggressively so in the manner of their acquisition strategy, so perhaps there is an argument for just a little more than a pro-rata share of the national debt going to Scotland were there to be a separation.

Personally I hope that the Union stays intact, I think we would all be the poorer for a split.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			Stats, love them, they are my job after all!

Out of genuine interest, does the Â£3.5bn surplus for Scotland include or exclude the Oil and Gas?

The point about Trident is fair to a point, albeit I assume Scotland would need to have some form of armed forces?  What are the start up costs for that (if you know, I see you mentioned the forces was a bit of an unknown earlier in the thread)?
		
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Excludes as all proceeds go directly to Westminster.

The armed forces are a tricky one, but I'd suggest that comes under the 10% of assets due to Scotland.It comes down to what kind of armed force Scotland would require and desire.I'd guess we wouldn't require a navy as such, moreso a beefed up coast guard.
I think an independent Scotland wouldn't be getting involved in the likes of Afghanistan and be like Sweden or Finland.
And after a wee look, we'd still be part of the commonwealth, so any Scottish soldier still wanting to serve The UK would still be allowed, much like kiwis,Canadians or Aussies.


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Excludes as all proceeds go directly to Westminster.

The armed forces are a tricky one, but I'd suggest that comes under the 10% of assets due to Scotland.It comes down to what kind of armed force Scotland would require and desire.I'd guess we wouldn't require a navy as such, moreso a beefed up coast guard.
I think an independent Scotland wouldn't be getting involved in the likes of Afghanistan and be like Sweden or Finland.
And after a wee look, we'd still be part of the commonwealth, so any Scottish soldier still wanting to serve The UK would still be allowed, much like kiwis,Canadians or Aussies.
		
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I think you're right about the forces and the requirements although I haven't seen/can't find much of a debate about that at the moment.

One other question on the surplus/deficit numbers.....  Does the Â£3.5bn surplus take into account any of the bail out money for "Scottish" banks?  I know banks are more global these days but not sure if a share of the bail out money has been apportioned when calculating the surplus?

Interesting points adidassler and has certainly made me think more about it and also kicked me into gear to understand it all a bit more.

My gut feel remains that it is a bad thing but I would need to look at the numbers myself as I presume these are stats generated by the SNP as part of the debate?


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## Bikky73 (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			Stats, love them, they are my job after all!

Out of genuine interest, does the Â£3.5bn surplus for Scotland include or exclude the Oil and Gas?

The point about Trident is fair to a point, albeit I assume Scotland would need to have some form of armed forces?  What are the start up costs for that (if you know, I see you mentioned the forces was a bit of an unknown earlier in the thread)?
		
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They've already got their armed forces..... They're called out of work Glaswegians 

BTW, I'm not dissing Scotland, I love the place, and if you do get free'd and are owed 10% of England, want to take the North East as that 10%?


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			OK, I realise I'll be getting tedious about this now, so I'll fire some stats up and leave it ( for a while)

Scotlands population makes up 8.5% of The UK population
Scotland GDP is 11.5% ( excluding oil and gas revenue)
We outperform the rest of The UK by 3% in production

Oil and gas revenue for 2009 = Â£13.9 Billion

Scotland would liable for 10% of The UK current debt, but also due 10% of any assets The UK hold.

Since 2006 upto 2010, The GER ( Govt Expenses & Revenue report)
Scotland = Â£3.5 Billion surplus
UK = Â£72 Billion Deficit 

Exports in 2009
Scotland increased by 13 %
UK increased by 0.05%

In regard to oil running out in the next 30-40 years, a myth.Estimates suggest 100 years worth of oil production is more realistic...it may be harder to get to, but technology improves daily.New oil fields found off Rockall last year.

Trident replacements estimated to cost Â£100Billion, something Scotland would not burdened with.

Whiskey exports last year approx Â£3Billion with Â£700 Million in excise paid to London, another asset by-passing Scotland.

So combine all the above the capacity to claim VAT/Corporation tax/NI contributions...and reduce them to a level to make inward investment ( and job creation) more attractive to the likes of Mitsubushi and amazon, the case for independence is solid imo.

I've missed out wind/wave renewables because I don't have any figures, but we're supposedly at the forefront of that,too.

Ask yourself this-

Why does a political party who are generally despised in Scotland with almost zero support be so keen to keep Scotland as part of the Union?An England free of the SNP/Scottish Labour would almost guarantee a Conservative govt in England for a decade or so.  

There must be a reason.It must be money, unless anyone can suggest anything else?
		
Click to expand...

Adidassler,

Sorry for the questions but you've piqued my interest now, and I also am always wary of stats without a fuller understanding....

- The GDP, what is the long term trend for Scotlands GDP as a proporion of overall?  You would also need to have a pretty good understanding of the intended corporate tax and law structure post independence to analyse the impact this could have on production.

- Exports - why is 2009 quoted?  Are numbers for 2010 and 2011 not available?  Again would be interesting to see the longer term trend as this could be a spike.  Also, what are the exports made up of?

- Oil, 30-40 yrs or 100yrs doesn't really matter, what is the long term plan when it is gone?  Or is it more a case of "we'll be gone by then so...."?

I'm not trying to argue against just genuinely interested.

If you don't know the answers could you point me in the direction of where you got your numbers from?

Thanks


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## lobthewedge (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Why does a political party who are generally despised in Scotland with almost zero support be so keen to keep Scotland as part of the Union?An England free of the SNP/Scottish Labour would almost guarantee a Conservative govt in England for a decade or so.  

There must be a reason.It must be money, unless anyone can suggest anything else?
		
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Perhaps an immense pride in the United Kingdom.  Pride in the union between our great countries and everything it has achieved for England, Scotland and the world in the 300+ years of its great history.

That, or they just cant be bothered with a very costly and devastating divorce?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			One other question on the surplus/deficit numbers.....  Does the Â£3.5bn surplus take into account any of the bail out money for "Scottish" banks?  I know banks are more global these days but not sure if a share of the bail out money has been apportioned when calculating the surplus?

Interesting points adidassler and has certainly made me think more about it and also kicked me into gear to understand it all a bit more.

My gut feel remains that it is a bad thing but I would need to look at the numbers myself as I presume these are stats generated by the SNP as part of the debate?
		
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No, the Â£3.5B doesn't include RBS/HBOS/Northern Rock ;-) bailouts. Precedent was set by the bail outs of Fortis and Dexia. France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg took a proportion of the cost in relation to the amount of trading within their respective regions.

More info here:http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php...-bank-bail-out

I've taken nothing from The SNP.Bits and bobs from various places, some you would expect a pro-slant, some you wouldn't.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			Adidassler,

Sorry for the questions but you've piqued my interest now, and I also am always wary of stats without a fuller understanding....

- The GDP, what is the long term trend for Scotlands GDP as a proporion of overall?  You would also need to have a pretty good understanding of the intended corporate tax and law structure post independence to analyse the impact this could have on production.

- Exports - why is 2009 quoted?  Are numbers for 2010 and 2011 not available?  Again would be interesting to see the longer term trend as this could be a spike.  Also, what are the exports made up of?

- Oil, 30-40 yrs or 100yrs doesn't really matter, what is the long term plan when it is gone?  Or is it more a case of "we'll be gone by then so...."?

I'm not trying to argue against just genuinely interested.

If you don't know the answers could you point me in the direction of where you got your numbers from?

Thanks
		
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Here's a few links, hope they help

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8618107.stm

http://www.oilofscotland.org/GERS_June_2010_Government_Expenditure_&_Revenue_Scotland_2008-2009.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

and handle with care-
http://www.oilofscotland.org/index.html


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Here's a few links, hope they help

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8618107.stm

http://www.oilofscotland.org/GERS_June_2010_Government_Expenditure_&_Revenue_Scotland_2008-2009.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

and handle with care-
http://www.oilofscotland.org/index.html

Click to expand...

Thanks for this, should be able to find out a bit more about it


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## Dodger (Jan 11, 2012)




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## DCB (Jan 11, 2012)

So in 2011 around 3.95million Scots had the chance to vote at the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Due to the general apathy, only around 1.97million actually bothered to turn out to vote. Of that, only  45.4% voted SNP, that's less than 850k.

That means 3.1million didn't vote for we fat Alex Salmond and when it comes down to it, I don't think the Scottish people really want to go down the Independence route behind we Alex.

I for one will be happy as we are.


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## Bikky73 (Jan 11, 2012)

DCB said:



			So in 2011 around 3.95million Scots had the chance to vote at the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Due to the general apathy, only around 1.97million actually bothered to turn out to vote. Of that, only  45.4% voted SNP, that's less than 850k.

That means 3.1million didn't vote for we fat Alex Salmond and when it comes down to it, I don't think the Scottish people really want to go down the Independence route behind we Alex.

I for one will be happy as we are.
		
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But that depends.  In North East England, I wanted postal votes for me and the mrs cos we were going away.  The paperwork arrived, eg 3rd march(not real date) to be returned to the council offices on 3rd march.  Now when we both work and get home AFTER council offices shut, how am I supposed to get the paperwork to them?  hence me and my mrs weren't permitted to vote last time.  Same as the many complaints country wide where voting stations closed while there were queues of people outside.  That is not democracy.  But then again we don't live in one.  You can have your say provided a. your not english, b. your not british complaining about how british get shafted, c. your not english wanting somthing for england, d. your not british wanting something for britain.  Any of the above are deemed racist.


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## sev112 (Jan 11, 2012)

Quote from David Cameron on the news this evening :

"This will be a very interesting and very difficult question for all of thos einvolved in voting in due course.

None of this vote should be entered into lightly - everyone involved in the vote should have all of the facts available to them, and should be in a fit state to be able to make the right decision at the right time .

Acoordingly, and given the importance to the future prosperity and security of our 2 countries, whatever the outcome, i shall be announcing a ban on the sale or consumption of alcohol, within the Scottish borders, in the 2 weeks leading up to the referendum. "


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## Bikky73 (Jan 11, 2012)

Actually the best bet here is a 5year trial.  The Gov't should 

1. Make England/Britain for the English/British again and stop rewarding crooks while jailing people defending their own bought and paid for properties with their hard earned cash that they paid massive amounts of tax on.

2. Agree with the Scottish Parliament a set of terms and bailout plans for a 5year trial seperation.  Where after that 5 years they come back into the fold and proceedings are put in motion to vote, both England and Scotland with a weighting of 1% of Scottish votes weighing in for 5% of English for a permanent seperation. 

I use % due to numbers, not fair if there's 10x the number of English to Scotts and its 1 vote of Scotts to 5 Votes of English as that way even if all Scotts voted for and all English against, the Scotts would loose on a 2 against 1 final weighting.

But saying that I also think we should be able to vote online.  And also take the the Aussie way of voting, which was apparently over ruled.  As a number of people might say vote Lab, but NEVER Tory nor LibDem, meaning our last elections wouldn't have resulted in this ConDem-ned Govt.


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## stef92 (Jan 11, 2012)

Bikky73 said:



			But that depends. In North East England, I wanted postal votes for me and the mrs cos we were going away. The paperwork arrived, eg 3rd march(not real date) to be returned to the council offices on 3rd march. Now when we both work and get home AFTER council offices shut, how am I supposed to get the paperwork to them? hence me and my mrs weren't permitted to vote last time. Same as the many complaints country wide where voting stations closed while there were queues of people outside. That is not democracy. But then again we don't live in one. You can have your say provided a. your not english, b. your not british complaining about how british get shafted, c. your not english wanting somthing for england, d. your not british wanting something for britain. Any of the above are deemed racist.
		
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WOAH! WAIT A MINUTEâ€¦ Ok you missed the vote, so did people who feel ill and couldn't make it, so did people who rushed to visit their stricken relatives. People prioritiseâ€¦ if being able to vote is one of those biggies then you should make provisions. Hey, you did to be fair, and someone, somewhere made an error, not society! But equally you still had the chance to vote, if you cancelled previous plansâ€¦ But the fact of the matter isâ€¦ YOU had a CHOICEâ€¦ WE DO HAVE A SAY IN HOW THIS COUNTRY IS RUN, and that is what many men and women are fighting around the world for us to have! As it is a luxury that is too precious to lose!

People in North Korea, people in Burma, many other people around the world do not have that choice!

I'm sorry but what I am quoting directly from you, which you claim isn't, is racist. It doesn't make you a racist, but those comments were most definitely are misguided and ignorant. Anyone can apply to be an prospective MPâ€¦ Therefore we MOST DEFINITELY LIVE A DEMOCRACY!

I apologise if this causes disruption to a very interesting and previously quite learned thread, but sometimes, in fact very rarely, I have to say and stand up for what I believe.

I never mean, nor wish to cause inflammatory remarks, but if it is felt that I have overstepped a mark, MODS please delete this post.


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## rosecott (Jan 11, 2012)

hindmarshsl said:



			I'm sorry but what I am quoting directly from you, which you claim isn't, is racist.
		
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I'm with you but, Mods, don't delete the post - let everyone read it.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

DCB said:



			So in 2011 around 3.95million Scots had the chance to vote at the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Due to the general apathy, only around 1.97million actually bothered to turn out to vote. Of that, only  45.4% voted SNP, that's less than 850k.

That means 3.1million didn't vote for we fat Alex Salmond and when it comes down to it, I don't think the Scottish people really want to go down the Independence route behind we Alex.

I for one will be happy as we are.
		
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903000 voted SNP, just over 1M voted for AN Other.Pretty spectacular figures.More would vote in a referendum and I'd guess those extra voters would vote for independence. Salmond is the number 1 politician in The UK right now.I bet there are no live leader debates as Cameron,Milliband and Clegg would be destroyed by the wee jambo.



Bikky73 said:



			But that depends.  In North East England, I wanted postal votes for me and the mrs cos we were going away.  The paperwork arrived, eg 3rd march(not real date) to be returned to the council offices on 3rd march.  Now when we both work and get home AFTER council offices shut, how am I supposed to get the paperwork to them?  hence me and my mrs weren't permitted to vote last time.  Same as the many complaints country wide where voting stations closed while there were queues of people outside.  That is not democracy.  But then again we don't live in one.  You can have your say provided a. your not english, b. your not british complaining about how british get shafted, c. your not english wanting somthing for england, d. your not british wanting something for britain.  Any of the above are deemed racist.
		
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You might the Luis Suarez of this forum, not a racist but plenty racist chat.


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

Not sure you need to apologise hindmarshl.

This is a really interesting subject though so I tend to avoid the sensationalist stuff.

I'm the other way to you, a Scot living in England.  As such I find it quite surprising that most English people I speak to are quite flippant about it all.

If (and I've not had a chance to do enough reading) adi2dassler is in the right ballpark with his numbers or how this will work out financially, surely this will have an impact on England in terms of a net reduction in revenue to Westminster which will need to be plugged somehow?

That concerns me as a resident in England.  On what scale are we talking reduction in revenue?  Will it increase taxes?  How are the 10% of UK assets to be allocated etc etc etc.

If independence (full independence that is) ever became reality it would affect more than Scottish people alone.


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## stef92 (Jan 11, 2012)

I'm glad it wasn't just me then!


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## stef92 (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			Not sure you need to apologise hindmarshl.

This is a really interesting subject though so I tend to avoid the sensationalist stuff.

I'm the other way to you, a Scot living in England.  As such I find it quite surprising that most English people I speak to are quite flippant about it all.

If (and I've not had a chance to do enough reading) adi2dassler is in the right ballpark with his numbers or how this will work out financially, surely this will have an impact on England in terms of a net reduction in revenue to Westminster which will need to be plugged somehow?

That concerns me as a resident in England.  On what scale are we talking reduction in revenue?  Will it increase taxes?  How are the 10% of UK assets to be allocated etc etc etc.

If independence (full independence that is) ever became reality it would affect more than Scottish people alone.
		
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Thank god we have managed to get the matter back on track!

If I am honest I think the flippancy comes from the lack of knowledge. It has never been an issue for "The English" as it has the Scots. I mean that in the sense that Scots are conscious of it by voting for a party that advocates it. We don't.

Also, I was always under the impression, seemingly wrongly, that Scotland could not cope without usâ€¦ I think this is the general consensus tooâ€¦

I too like you am wary of statistics, but I must say adi2dassler is putting forward some good arguments.

My own personal view on it I guess still remains the same, but only on a personal level, as I would have no idea where I would stand as a student in a non-uk higher education system. Equally would Scottish students still continue to pay less for a degree than I do for a prescriptionâ€¦?? Overall though, it looks like it may be beneficial to Scotland, and not so for the english/union.


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## chris661 (Jan 11, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I'm with you but, Mods, don't delete the post - let everyone read it.
		
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That wouldn't be the post I would delete.



hindmarshsl said:



			I'm glad it wasn't just me then!
		
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Don't worry it isn't.


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## NWJocko (Jan 11, 2012)

hindmarshsl said:



			Thank god we have managed to get the matter back on track!

If I am honest I think the flippancy comes from the lack of knowledge. It has never been an issue for "The English" as it has the Scots. I mean that in the sense that Scots are conscious of it by voting for a party that advocates it. We don't.

Also, I was always under the impression, seemingly wrongly, that Scotland could not cope without usâ€¦ I think this is the general consensus tooâ€¦

I too like you am wary of statistics, but I must say adi2dassler is putting forward some good arguments.

My own personal view on it I guess still remains the same, but only on a personal level, as I would have no idea where I would stand as a student in a non-uk higher education system. Equally would Scottish students still continue to pay less for a degree than I do for a prescriptionâ€¦?? Overall though, it looks like it may be beneficial to Scotland, and not so for the english/union.
		
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I agree because Scots need to make a conscious decision about independence, whereas England could just wake up one day and no longer be part of the old union between the 2 countries and find itself in a "worse" situation.

Honestly I don't know enough to say with any confidence whether Scotland would be better off.  I think, short term and taking into account Oil revenue, perhaps from a financial standpoint yes they could be.  I would still have major concerns what the plans are beyond Oil and Gas.

External investment that adi2dassler mentions is useful, however can be fleeting.  i.e. Mitsubishi used to have a huge factory in the town I grew up in which closed in the late 90's.  That was pretty much the only source of emplyment in the town.

That was why I was interested in the export numbers.  What are Scotland producing to export?  Is it sustainable?  Do they have the export infrastructure themselves (as I assume a lot of the exports make their way through England first) etc etc.

From a sociological point of view, if Scotland does become more attractive, would people in the North of England look to migrate there given the North/South divide in England?

Like you I am also interested in politics, would be interesting to see what happened to Scottish politics in the aftermath of true independence also.....

There are compelling arguments albeit from a "pro" perspective, would be interesting to see an argument from an "against" perspective to compare the views.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 11, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			External investment that adi2dassler mentions is useful, however can be fleeting.  i.e. Mitsubishi used to have a huge factory in the town I grew up in which closed in the late 90's.  That was pretty much the only source of emplyment in the town.
		
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I mentioned Mitsubishi specifically because of this- http://www.guardian.co.uk/edinburgh/2010/dec/03/edinburgh-offshore-wind-power-mitsubishi-jobs

I understand Hyundai are next to announce something similiar. Hardly scaring off inward investment as Cameron suggested.Amazon have created 1000 or so jobs in Scotland recently too.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

On day one of devolution, can we have our pound back? Issue your own currency.

You can have back any one serving in the armed forces, government, civil service, nhs, etc. It is not England's fault they are out of work. It is the fault of devolution.

You can administer your own car licenses, car tax, mot, income tax, vat, business tax, petrol tax, tobacco and alcohol tax, etc.

You can set up your own civil service to run all this.

Do you have any idea what this all costs?


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## 19thagain (Jan 12, 2012)

In the House,at Scottish Question Time, the English MP's there present always state that we, the Scots, are
 draining the 'pot' as we receive too much per head, in comparison to England.

Save yourselves all that cash and just let us go on our own then. Is it not strange that both the major parties now want to keep us in the Union?

On the subject of 16 year olds voting ... I wonder if a typical 16 year old is more knowledgeable about world affairs than a typical OAP whose world is now on how good things were 'when they were young' and find knowing the days of the week difficult and all modern tech is beyond their ken!


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			On day one of devolution, can we have our pound back? Issue your own currency.

You can have back any one serving in the armed forces, government, civil service, nhs, etc. It is not England's fault they are out of work. It is the fault of devolution.

You can administer your own car licenses, car tax, mot, income tax, vat, business tax, petrol tax, tobacco and alcohol tax, etc.

You can set up your own civil service to run all this.

Do you have any idea what this all costs?
		
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It's actually the UK pound, we're in the currency together.To suggest it's English is ignorant.

And we actually do want to administer all the things you mention as they are income streams that bypass Scotland.

We already have a civil service, much like we already have an NHS.

I've got no idea how much it would cost (I suspect you don't either) but we already have the infrastructure in place, if we gain income which we previously have, that'll do nicely.


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## Junior (Jan 12, 2012)

Been reading this thread with interest as I must profess to not knowing the intricacies of both sides of the debate. 

I actually don't mind if Scotland decides to breakaway from the rest of the UK.  From reading the posts above it seems to have sufficient industry to survive. It will be interesting to see if Scotland will become a member of the EU and adopt the Euro ?  Bowing to Brussels is a bug bare of mine and putting monies in the pot to bail out the flailing economies of Greece, Portugal, Italy when we have a fragile economy ourselves is not the right thing to do.    Scotland would be best to give the EU a wide birth imo.  

Where I have more of an issue is that we still pour millions and millions into the governments of India, China and Brazil, when infact these countries are much more wealthy, and have less debt than we do. I'm in the camp that in these uncertain times, the UK needs to look after itself before dishing money out all over the world.   It's not as if we are heavily dependant on imports from these countries.  We should be investing in UK industry and becoming more self sustainable.


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## Bikky73 (Jan 12, 2012)

Junior said:



			Been reading this thread with interest as I must profess to not knowing the intricacies of both sides of the debate. 

I actually don't mind if Scotland decides to breakaway from the rest of the UK.  From reading the posts above it seems to have sufficient industry to survive. It will be interesting to see if Scotland will become a member of the EU and adopt the Euro ?  Bowing to Brussels is a bug bare of mine and putting monies in the pot to bail out the flailing economies of Greece, Portugal, Italy when we have a fragile economy ourselves is not the right thing to do.    Scotland would be best to give the EU a wide birth imo.  

Where I have more of an issue is that we still pour millions and millions into the governments of India, China and Brazil, when infact these countries are much more wealthy, and have less debt than we do. I'm in the camp that in these uncertain times, the UK needs to look after itself before dishing money out all over the world.   It's not as if we are heavily dependant on imports from these countries.  We should be investing in UK industry and becoming more self sustainable.
		
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I'd say not to join Europe.  That is my same bugbear. After all....

If you pay to charity, pay for gym, pay kids clubs, kids clothes, and social life as well as mortgage and car.  Then you take a big paycut for one reason or another.  Do you 1. stop paying to charity, b. tell your kids they can't goto their clubs and have clothes and treats?

If your the British Government its B......


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Surely by devolving, Scotland would no longer be part of the UK, and hence could not continue to use the pound? If Scotland were to go bust, it would drag the pound down, through no fault of the remaining UK, who should have no responsibility for bailing out.

I have read that Salmond favours the Euro.

Good luck.


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## thecraw (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Surely by devolving, Scotland would no longer be part of the UK, and hence could not continue to use the pound? If Scotland were to go bust, it would drag the pound down, through no fault of the remaining UK, who should have no responsibility for bailing out.

I have read that Salmond favours the Euro.

Good luck.
		
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Murph, that is where you show your ignorance. We actually do have our own bank notes up here. Granted its in sterling but they are Scottish Bank Notes, Scottish currency. They are not classed as legal tender down south but strangely enough 90% of places south of the border are happy to accept them.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Scottish notes are legal tender down here, and so people do have to take them.

Thing is, a currency is more than a bank note. We don't let France use the pound, so why should Scotland be allowed to continue using it. Once Scotland is devolved, it is a seperate country. It should need its own currency, you can't just choose the one you want.


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## patricks148 (Jan 12, 2012)

The simple reason the Uk Gov donâ€™t want Scotland to leave the union is simply one word, Oil. Successive UK governments have been playing down the revenue to the UK exchequer from oil and natural gas and now we have wind and wave power, thereâ€™s even talk of selling water to England-shire. If Scotland was such a drain on the UK economy as some would have you believe, why do the Tories want us to stay?

Come on Alex


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2012)

Forgetting all the financial implications, a fundamental question, do the Scots want independance? Why is money the driver, one way or another, when discussing something as fundamental as independance?

In reality it appears that there are quite a few Scots who'll have independance if it comes sugar coated with financial guarantees.

Forget the money, do you want self determination or not?

On the point of English MP's complaining about the huge difference in public spending per head between England and Scotland. The figure, as of August 2011, is Â£1,600 more per head in Scotland.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Scottish notes are legal tender down here, and so people do have to take them.

Thing is, a currency is more than a bank note. We don't let France use the pound, so why should Scotland be allowed to continue using it. Once Scotland is devolved, it is a seperate country. It should need its own currency, you can't just choose the one you want.
		
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You're missing the point.We do have a currency, it's called the pound!


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## lobthewedge (Jan 12, 2012)

On the same lines as Hobbits post, I want to know why some people are so in favour of independance?  

Is it purely for the potential financial gains?


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## 19thagain (Jan 12, 2012)

Hobbit said:



			On the point of English MP's complaining about the huge difference in public spending per head between England and Scotland. The figure, as of August 2011, is Â£1,600 more per head in Scotland.
		
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As I said above, if this is a NET figure i.e. the amount going OUT to Scotland and the Government has no additional INs from Scotland... just let us go! Why fight to keep a country that is costing money??


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## brendy (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Scottish notes are legal tender down here, and so people do have to take them.
.
		
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They actually are not legal tender, nor is the Northern Irish Banknotes (ie Ulster Bank, Northern Bank, Bank of Ireland) in England/Wales. Bank of England notes are not legal tender in Scotland nor Northern Ireland either but are widely accepted.
The isle of man is in there too with their banknotes, we all accept them too, its a reciprocal thing as they are all bits of paper valued the same (Â£5 is the same anywhere in the uk and IOM) in Sterling.


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## johnboywalton (Jan 12, 2012)

This subject has been rumbling along for years and years, let`s just have the vote for FULL independence! I am sure most people will not vote on perceived financial gain alone, and judge it on other factors?

But that said I can not believe that we (England) will be worse off without Scotland!!!


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

19thagain said:



			As I said above, if this is a NET figure i.e. the amount going OUT to Scotland and the Government has no additional INs from Scotland... just let us go! Why fight to keep a country that is costing money??
		
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No Prime minister will want to be remembered as the guy in charge when the union broke up.

Labour don't want a split, as that would pretty much guarantee a Tory government forever.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			You're missing the point.We do have a currency, it's called the pound!
		
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No, the pound is the currency of the union. You wouldn't be in it any more. Salmond knows this, as he wants to use the Euro.


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			No, the pound is the currency of the union. You wouldn't be in it any more. Salmond knows this, as he wants to use the Euro.
		
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So neither would England then? The 1707 act of Union saw England & Scotland come together ( Wales is classed as a principality) So we'd both be in the same boat.The obvious recourse is for both countries is to continue to use the same currency, it's not as if any break up would happen over-night, it would take years.

As for the Euro, I've never been a massive fan...and I think recent developments will have altered many peoples view, on both sides of Hadrians Wall.


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## StuartD (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			No Prime minister will want to be remembered as the guy in charge when the union broke up.

Labour don't want a split, as that would pretty much guarantee a Tory government forever.
		
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In that theory when labour get back in then the Tories will no doubt support the breakaway because

A) they won't be charge when it happened

B) A Tory government will be pretty much guaranteed forever after the split

Can't see it though


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## PieMan (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Surely by devolving, Scotland would no longer be part of the UK, and hence could not continue to use the pound? If Scotland were to go bust, it would drag the pound down, through no fault of the remaining UK, who should have no responsibility for bailing out.I have read that Salmond favours the Euro.Good luck.
		
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If Scotland do break away from the UK, then the only way they can adopt the Euro is to join the EU, and they will have to apply to do so as by breaking away they cease to be, or be part of a 'Member State'. Depending on social and economic infratructure etc, this could take years, however with Scotland already adhering to EU laws already as part of the UK, they will be fast tracked in. The question with that though is whether the Scottish people want to be in the EU. Wonder if Salmond will offer the Scottish electorate a reforendum on that one! Interesting times ahead! Pesonally I am happy with Scotland gaining independence, but believe that it has to be either a full breakaway or nothing - all this 'devo max' is bollix; just holding the rest of the UK to ransom if he doesn't get what he really wants. However if that does turn out to be the case, from a legal perspective, can voters in the rest of the Union have a referendum as to whether we want Scotland to remain in on those terms? Could take years this one!


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## Val (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Scottish notes are legal tender down here, and so people do have to take them.

Thing is, a currency is more than a bank note. We don't let France use the pound, so why should Scotland be allowed to continue using it. Once Scotland is devolved, it is a seperate country. It should need its own currency, you can't just choose the one you want.
		
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As would England become a separate country, they would need to find a currency also based on your thinking.


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2012)

19thagain said:



			As I said above, if this is a NET figure i.e. the amount going OUT to Scotland and the Government has no additional INs from Scotland... just let us go! Why fight to keep a country that is costing money??
		
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I don't think there should be a fight either way. I'd like to think it would be a straightforward question put to the people. "Do you want total independance or not?" The half a$$ed half in, half out devolution is just rolax. Are you in the club or not? Anything else just leads to the sniping and conflict we've seen since devolved parliaments came about.

I honestly can't see why there is a debate about currencies, or transfer of assets etc. As seperate countries, just like the UK and France, what's inside each other's borders belongs to that country. But equally, a proportion of the UK's debt belongs to Scotland, i.e. just like a divorce.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

The debate about currency is quite important in my view. There needs to be a difference, or the economic performance of one of the two states can bring down the other one, as has been proved by the recent Euro experience.
One would effectively have to single handedly bail out the other, in order to save their own economies. 

The Scots can have RBS back as well. And pay back the bail out.


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## thecraw (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			The debate about currency is quite important in my view. There needs to be a difference, or the economic performance of one of the two states can bring down the other one, as has been proved by the recent Euro experience.
One would effectively have to single handedly bail out the other, in order to save their own economies. 

The Scots can have RBS back as well. And pay back the bail out.
		
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In that case can we get our taxes back for the Northern Rock bail out, can we also get our taxes back for failed buyover of HBOS by LloydsTSB which the government stepped in to secure at tax layers expense. Murph I really don't know why you appear to have such a chip on your shoulder over this.

The Sterling currency is not English. FACT.


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## DCB (Jan 12, 2012)

thecraw said:



			The Sterling currency is not English. FACT.
		
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It's named after that famous furniture emporium based near Tillicoultry, the one wee Dougie Donnely used to sing the praises of.

So it's definitely nor English, it's fae tillicoultry


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## Dodger (Jan 12, 2012)

thecraw said:



			In that case can we get our taxes back for the Northern Rock bail out, can we also get our taxes back for failed buyover of HBOS by LloydsTSB which the government stepped in to secure at tax layers expense. Murph I really don't know why you appear to have such a chip on your shoulder over this.

The Sterling currency is not English. FACT.
		
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Craw,as a wind up merchant yourself I am surprised you cannot see that Murph is at it.......after all he is a bright man so he cannot surely be that donut.....can he?!:mmm:


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			The debate about currency is quite important in my view. There needs to be a difference, or the economic performance of one of the two states can bring down the other one, as has been proved by the recent Euro experience.
One would effectively have to single handedly bail out the other, in order to save their own economies. 

The Scots can have RBS back as well. And pay back the bail out.
		
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You're at the wind-up but I'll bite.

RBS employs a total of 150,000 people, not all of them will be Scottish.In fact, I reckon they employ as much (if not more) English people than Scots.The situation RBS found themselves in was not exclusively down to decisions made in Scotland either, The City of London have to accept a pretty large whack of that particular burden.

If the demand for two separate currencies was there, and the reasoning was genuine, there could be Scottish pounds and english pounds. for the first 5 years of separation, they could be linked, up until a point that the powers that be decide it's fair for both sides to split.

Scotland would have to hold a referendum on joining the euro, one that right now, stands no chance of being a postive lets join win.


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## rosecott (Jan 12, 2012)

Why ever would we want to break up the UK? From all parts of the British Isles and beyond, we seem to get on OK on this forum (apart from Snelly and Craw), so let's stay together - from a Scot who has lived more than twice as long out of Scotland as in it.


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			The debate about currency is quite important in my view. There needs to be a difference, or the economic performance of one of the two states can bring down the other one, as has been proved by the recent Euro experience.
One would effectively have to single handedly bail out the other, in order to save their own economies. 

The Scots can have RBS back as well. And pay back the bail out.
		
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The Irish kept the punt, and had a one for one reciprocal agreement for many years and it worked. It might have cost Â£1.20 a pint in the UK and Â£2 a pint in Ireland at the time but your pound note was accepted in Ireland as one punt. Totally seperate economies. Why can't that happen in this instance?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

lobthewedge said:



			On the same lines as Hobbits post, I want to know why some people are so in favour of independance?  

Is it purely for the potential financial gains?
		
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Speaking from my point of view, not exclusively financial, no.

I'd like to be a citizen of an independent Scotland for many reason, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous.I'd like that Scotland to not be in the Euro-zone too.I'd like to be a neutral country.Left-central neutral country with good health-care,low unemployment,strict laws on drugs, zero-tolerance to knife crime to the extent of long prison terms for those caught carrying.
Very limited armed force, but civil defence force, kinda like the TA
No nuclear arms and a rapid phasing out of nuclear power stations
Dramatic improvement in general health,especially in children
Limits on immigration until unemployment is reduced
The ability for Scotland to be represented in any sport at any meeting (I'm thinking olympics here...that's gonna mess up the football thing eventually)

All this can be achieved, but we need the ability to finance these things for ourselves.

Oil/gas
Fishing-common fishery policy is nonsense...allow this industry the ability to keep the fish they catch.
Water-it's coming, we'll be selling water sooner rather than later.
Whisky-Â£700M in excise each year 
IT-Shining lights like RockstarNorth and the great work done by the tayside university
Heavy industry-make it make attractive for these valued workers on the clyde and rosyth for inward investment

Gain a sense of pride in being Scottish, move away from the nanny-state environment we find ourselves with dole spongers and work avoiders.


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## lobthewedge (Jan 12, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Speaking from my point of view, not exclusively financial, no.

I'd like to be a citizen of an independent Scotland for many reason, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous.I'd like that Scotland to not be in the Euro-zone too.I'd like to be a neutral country.Left-central neutral country with good health-care,low unemployment,strict laws on drugs, zero-tolerance to knife crime to the extent of long prison terms for those caught carrying.
Very limited armed force, but civil defence force, kinda like the TA
No nuclear arms and a rapid phasing out of nuclear power stations
Dramatic improvement in general health,especially in children
Limits on immigration until unemployment is reduced
The ability for Scotland to be represented in any sport at any meeting (I'm thinking olympics here...that's gonna mess up the football thing eventually)

All this can be achieved, but we need the ability to finance these things for ourselves.
		
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Adi, I reckon thats what most of the British population would want for the UK as a whole, not just Scotland (maybe a few grumbles about the armed forces and nuclear, but thats another debate).

Why do we have to become independent to achieve this?  Should we not be aspiring to these goals as part of the UK or do you not have faith in our current politicians and lawmakers to make it so?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jan 12, 2012)

lobthewedge said:



			Adi, I reckon thats what most of the British population would want for the UK as a whole, not just Scotland (maybe a few grumbles about the armed forces and nuclear, but thats another debate).

Why do we have to become independent to achieve this?  Should we not be aspiring to these goals as part of the UK or do you not have faith in our current politicians and lawmakers to make it so?
		
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It's easier the smaller the nation.I know this might go down like a lead balloon, but I genuinely believe that Scotland, taking all financial avenues into account, heavily subsidises the UK and I've yet to be shown figures that contradict my opinion.

England has the City of London and pretty healthy gas reserves off their coast, Scotland has Oil,Gas,Water,with tidal energy coming online soon.Our assets are higher, our population is lower, the ability to enact these changes would be easier for us and harder for England.


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2012)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Gain a sense of pride in being Scottish, move away from the nanny-state environment we find ourselves with dole spongers and work avoiders.
		
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I would hope you already have a strong sense of pride for being Scottish, and there is a lot in Scotland to be proud about. A lot of what you desire already falls under the remit of the Scottish Parliament, and I would question why some of those things haven't already happened. But maybe that question is between the electorate up there and your MP's. An awful lot of what you desire is also what the average man in the street throughout the UK desires. 

Teams achieve more than individuals, and Team UK, i.e. the Union, can achieve far more if we work together to achieve the things you have mentioned. Stregth in numbers isn't a new or difficult concept but I do feel the break up of the Union would see the strength of both countries weakened in the eyes of senior politicians in Europe.

By all means go your own way if that is what you wish but I'm not sure quite what wholesale changes you'd expect to happen when the infrastructure has been in place for so long. Major changes would come at huge costs and certainly wouldn't happen overnight. Grass is greener?


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## lobthewedge (Jan 12, 2012)

Hobbit said:



			I would hope you already have a strong sense of pride for being Scottish, and there is a lot in Scotland to be proud about. A lot of what you desire already falls under the remit of the Scottish Parliament, and I would question why some of those things haven't already happened. But maybe that question is between the electorate up there and your MP's. An awful lot of what you desire is also what the average man in the street throughout the UK desires. 

Teams achieve more than individuals, and Team UK, i.e. the Union, can achieve far more if we work together to achieve the things you have mentioned. Stregth in numbers isn't a new or difficult concept but I do feel the break up of the Union would see the strength of both countries weakened in the eyes of senior politicians in Europe.

By all means go your own way if that is what you wish but I'm not sure quite what wholesale changes you'd expect to happen when the infrastructure has been in place for so long. Major changes would come at huge costs and certainly wouldn't happen overnight. Grass is greener?
		
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Well said Hobbit, totally agree.

Britain may not be what it used to be and we have our problems, but that union flag still commands a lot of respect around the world and opens a lot of doors for us.  A luxury and security that would be squandered with a break up of the union.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2012)

A lot of non Scottish investment has been put into North Sea Oil and Gas.  Most of the fields lie outside a territorial 3 mile zone anyway.

I think it is questionable what an Independant Scotland could claim as soverign.

Is 'D Max' a bit like 'D Plane'


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