# Stopping the ball on firm greens



## stevelev (May 8, 2013)

Just after tips, I always try to run the ball in but sometime leave myself with a pond or bunker to go over.

Last year had no problem but the greens are rock hard and so difficult to stop on. Any tips......... To give you an idea of firmness, a high shot with a 9i drop and rolls often right of the back of thegreen


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## JustOne (May 8, 2013)

Ask the green keeper to water them properly.


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## stevelev (May 8, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Ask the green keeper to water them properly.
		
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Had considered it......


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## DelB (May 8, 2013)

What ball are you using?


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## In_The_Rough (May 8, 2013)

Pray for rain Must be really bad mate if a 9I is not holding


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## stevelev (May 8, 2013)

SRixon Z star, Prov V, NXT Tour S, Bridgestone B330, Nike TOur, 

Even tried AD333, Srixon Soft Feel, Pinnacle, Nike Pd SFT, 

So in general any ball, went to other course played my usual Z Star stopped lovely, just looking for how to stop on solid greens

They are that hard, that you cant get any check on a ball from a green side chip with 60 degree wedge


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## DelB (May 8, 2013)

Jeez, either get them to water the greens or join a new course!


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## fundy (May 8, 2013)

ours are that firm currently its almost impossible to stop a ball on them, have to run it in. couple of the times at the weekend i hit full wedges into greens and the ball still ended up back edge   definite need for the fcast rain over the next few days (albeit not whilst im out playing in a pro-am at Brocket Hall ideally)


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## JustOne (May 8, 2013)

stevelev said:



			They are that hard, that you cant get any check on a ball from a green side chip with 60 degree wedge
		
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Ours are similar, and they've been tined and sanded too!!! - bloody nightmare for Â£1155/year.


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## stevelev (May 8, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Ours are similar, and they've been tined and sanded too!!! - bloody nightmare for Â£1155/year.
		
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So glad its not just me....................


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## fundy (May 8, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Ours are similar, and they've been tined and sanded too!!! - bloody nightmare for Â£1155/year.
		
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yep thats pretty much ours described (just slightly cheaper lol). Get to see what they should be like tomorrow though


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## HomerJSimpson (May 8, 2013)

If you are leaving yourself with a pond or bunker to go over then surely it comes down to course management. We aren't in the height of a dry summer so surprised balls aren't stopping. Ours are firm but well struck mid and short irons stopping pretty well


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## srixon 1 (May 8, 2013)

stevelev said:



			Just after tips, I always try to run the ball in but sometime leave myself with a pond or bunker to go over.

Last year had no problem but the greens are rock hard and so difficult to stop on. Any tips......... To give you an idea of firmness, a high shot with a 9i drop and rolls often right of the back of thegreen
		
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Hit the ball harder to give it more spin.


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## Lump (May 8, 2013)

Chip and runs and take your punishment. Miracle shots do not work...

Our greens are usually very good for holding a shot with a long iron, but you've got to be very careful atm with hitting anything but a wedge. There is a lot more skill needed to play into hard greens than soft receptive ones.


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## spawn_ukuk (May 9, 2013)

Right now the greens are just so hard, Ive hit solid SWs with PROV1s and sometimes they not holding the green
Only good thing about that is knowing ill get extra 30 yards run on the fairway


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## garyinderry (May 9, 2013)

lads, some of you are not catching on that the greens are different from one an other just 100 miles up the road.  

ive stated that the greens in the Merseyside area have been bone, and I mean bone dry for weeks on end.  it is height of the summer stuff! 

ive only seen it this dry for single weeks at a time back home Ireland and that's once a year at most.


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## One Planer (May 9, 2013)

The greens at my place are/were bone hard. They are watered, and very green, just bone hard.

I would ask this. When you're looking at holding a green, do you actually look at the green your wanting to hold or just look where the flag is in relation to where you are?

What I mean is it's pointless trying to hold a green that is bone hard that slopes away from you or has cambers and slopes that work against what you're trying to do.

A couple of examples as my track would be our 2nd and 14th. The 2nd runs drastically down hill from front to back, then the greens are as hard as they've been, I play up short and allow the ball to run on using the slope.

Out 14th is the opposite. It has a flat section at the front then runs sharpley up hill to a top tier. With this green I'm usually a little more agressive using the bank to either

a)  Pitch the ball into, or just short of it, then let it run back down to the lower teir.

or 

b) If the ball is on the top teir, take more club and make less of a swing to keep the spin down, again pitch it into the slop and let it bounce up and run on to the upper tier.

I suppose, what I'm trying to say, is, if it's your regular track, have a think about the green you want to hold and account for any slopes when playing your shot.


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## Region3 (May 9, 2013)

As someone else said, hit it harder to get more spin. I suppose hitting it higher will help as well.

Or - and this might sound crazy.........

Adapt to the conditions..... 

Not a dig at the OP, but around the course/clubhouse the last couple of weeks I've heard so many people complaining about not being able to stop a ball on the green, yet they still keep firing at pins!!! Change your game FFS!!!

I feel better now.


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## In_The_Rough (May 9, 2013)

Why is it in this country whenever there is any kind of abnormal weather conditions the course or greens go to pot. Last year Greens were flooded, this year no rain for a couple of weeks and the greens are like concrete. I have been golfing in Australia where there was no rain and the greens were always nice and receptive to hit onto. The fairways were quite brown and very firm but the greens were lush. Why can we not do this here


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## One Planer (May 9, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Why is it in this country whenever there is any kind of abnormal weather conditions the course or greens go to pot. Last year Greens were flooded, this year no rain for a couple of weeks and the greens are like concrete. I have been golfing in Australia where there was no rain and the greens were always nice and receptive to hit onto. The fairways were quite brown and very firm but the greens were lush. Why can we not do this here
		
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Ask your ground staff :thup:


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## garyinderry (May 9, 2013)

can I ask how your scoring has been with the greens hard?  I remember last year back home in Ireland we had a scorching week and the greens and fairways went bone dry.

I came joint 1st with 39 points. nothing out of the ordinary you say, 39 wouldn't get you in the top 10 around my old place. 


its not just even holding greens. its chipping too. working out where to land it or how hard to hit it is very difficult. a slight overhit may result in the ball running 20 ft past rather than 7ft. 

Ive taken action and put a 64 wedge in my bag.  we have lots of raised greens at lee park. ive used the 64 this last 3 days to pop the ball up and use the trajectory to make it sit down.

I would say that they conditions could add you to 4/5 shots to peoples games.


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## In_The_Rough (May 9, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Ask your ground staff :thup:
		
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Seems like it is more than me that needs to do that though that's the issue here it is not just an isolated case. Summat wrong somewhere. Anyway never get a straight answer so whats the point.


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## Alex1975 (May 9, 2013)

fundy said:



			yep thats pretty much ours described (just slightly cheaper lol). Get to see what they should be like tomorrow though
		
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It feels like they have been bad for a while now but we really have had no rain to speak of.  As you say, it will be worth it in the end and they are usually pretty good though the year.


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## srixon 1 (May 9, 2013)

The condition of the course will always be determined by the weather conditions. You just have to adapt your game to suit. If the greens are bone hard then you have to accept that you cannot aim at all the pins. Aim to land just short, or at the very front of the green and accept that you might have a few longer putts than usual. Personally, I would prefer to have the greens a bit firmer than the mushy things that most of us have been playing on for the last few months.


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## CMAC (May 9, 2013)

ours can spin back a 3 iron they are that soft, we can only dream of firm greens this year:angry:


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## garyinderry (May 9, 2013)

the rains have returned to merseyside! happy days


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## One Planer (May 9, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			the rains have returned to merseyside! happy days
		
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We had quite a bit of rain over night and having a light shower at the minute.

See what moaning about hard greens does to the weather!!! You should all be ashamed of yourselves :smirk:


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## craig_chesterfield (May 9, 2013)

If you are good at running it in, go with it whilst the greens are hard! I know it doesnt look as good but your par/birdie will feel better than a bogey after the hole!!!


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## garyinderry (May 9, 2013)

raised greens make it mighty difficult to run the ball in.  not impossible but a lot more difficult.  my home course in Ireland is pretty flat around the greens but at lee park in Liverpool, every green is rasied a few feet or so making this a little more tricky.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2013)

Lump said:



			Chip and runs and take your punishment. Miracle shots do not work...

Our greens are usually very good for holding a shot with a long iron, but you've got to be very careful atm with hitting anything but a wedge. There is a lot more skill needed to play into hard greens than soft receptive ones.
		
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With you on this.  Wondering why folk think they should get 'stop' on their short approach shots.  You'll get it if you hit the ball right and if you don;t or the greens are less receptive then ddon;t play a shot expecting it.  Easy answer to keeping a ball on the green - adapt the shot you play to your ability and the playing conditions.  Or am I missing something?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2013)

craig_chesterfield said:



			If you are good at running it in, go with it whilst the greens are hard! I know it doesnt look as good but your par/birdie will feel better than a bogey after the hole!!!
		
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Doesn't look as good? - who cares what it looks like...And besides - I think little bump and runs look fantastic - show real skill and judgement - much more than simply chucking the ball up in the air.  So beauty surely is in the eye of the beholding player.


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## stevelev (May 9, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Doesn't look as good? - who cares what it looks like...And besides - I think little bump and runs look fantastic - show real skill and judgement - much more than simply chucking the ball up in the air.  So beauty surely is in the eye of the beholding player.
		
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So back to the original issue........How do you play a bump and run to a small green with a pond between you and the hole when your 40 yards out. And even a 60degree doesn't stop on it. If its short your in the water, if its long you roll off the back oob. The green slopes towards you but still wont hold, seen very low hcappers struggle to hold it, so me off 21 how should I approach it...

Some have said course management.........At my level that can only help so much I still duff and slice/hook shots now and then and am always looking to improve...........


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## garyinderry (May 9, 2013)

another merseysider who knows what these drought conditions was like.   don't worry chap. I was out playing football there now in light rain.  hopefully we get a good plump tonight.


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## Evesdad (May 9, 2013)

My course has been the same for the last 3 weeks, nothing holding. It's a real shock to the system after the long wet spell. On Monday I had a shocker everything running through but knew most was my fault for flying the ball up at the green. On Tuesday I took the run the ball up or play shorter. Still ran a few through but much better results plus I'm adapting more. 32 points with 4 blobs which is quite good for me at the moment! Gave me 8th place in the mid week stableford winner only had 37 out of 60 odd entrants. Prob be all change again as rained today and the same forecast for tomorrow!


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## Region3 (May 10, 2013)

stevelev said:



			So back to the original issue........How do you play a bump and run to a small green with a pond between you and the hole when your 40 yards out. And even a 60degree doesn't stop on it. If its short your in the water, if its long you roll off the back oob. The green slopes towards you but still wont hold, seen very low hcappers struggle to hold it, so me off 21 how should I approach it...

Some have said course management.........At my level that can only help so much I still duff and slice/hook shots now and then and am always looking to improve...........
		
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Why are you 40yds out? Is it a short par 4, long par 4 that you can't get to in regulation, a par 5 or is it because of a miss-hit 2nd shot?

With the conditions as firm as they are at the moment, I can get to within 50-60yds of our first green if I nail my driver, so I'll take a look at the flag colour on the way to the tee. If it's red (front) I'll deliberately lay back a bit in the fairway because I know I can't stop the ball on the front of the green from 50yds, but a full shot from 100-120 I can hit hard enough to spin it and stop it near the front.

Is it an option in your scenario to leave your previous shot 100yds away instead of 40?


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## JustOne (May 10, 2013)

stevelev said:



			So back to the original issue........How do you play a bump and run to a small green with a pond between you and the hole when your 40 yards out. And even a 60degree doesn't stop on it. If its short your in the water, if its long you roll off the back oob. The green slopes towards you but still wont hold, seen very low hcappers struggle to hold it, so me off 21 how should I approach it...

Some have said course management.........At my level that can only help so much I still duff and slice/hook shots now and then and am always looking to improve...........
		
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Accept that you're best to play it to the back of the green and get down in 2 from there. Simple.

Of course the plan is to land your first shot straight in the hole to save you 2 shots..... or you can hole the one from the back of the green and save only 1 shot... either way it's better than 'getting cute' and being in the pond.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Accept that you're best to play it to the back of the green and get down in 2 from there. Simple.

Of course the plan is to land your first shot straight in the hole to save you 2 shots..... or you can hole the one from the back of the green and save only 1 shot... either way it's better than 'getting cute' and being in the pond.
		
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Good plan - especially if it is a hole you get a stroke on - use the stroke and treat a par as a bonus - a shot gained.


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## garyinderry (May 10, 2013)

ive combated the hard conditions by using a 64 wedge.  I tell you what.  my 60 is going to have its work cut out getting back in the bag.  up and down from everywhere. 

at times it feels like im showing off.   oul Slazenger 64 with 6 degrees of bounce.  perfect


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## JustOne (May 15, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			ive combated the hard conditions by using a 64 wedge.  I tell you what.  my 60 is going to have its work cut out getting back in the bag.  up and down from everywhere. 

at times it feels like im showing off.   oul Slazenger 64 with 6 degrees of bounce.  perfect  

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Also great for spreading butter and wallpaper scraping :thup:


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## MadAdey (May 15, 2013)

See Region3's advice. A couple of holes at my place are much better attacked from further back so you can hit a nice full shot that you can load up with some back spin. Good example is the 5th, 320 yard par 4, big bunker at the front of the green stopping you from running it in, go long and you go down a 10 foot slope. My way is to hit a shot that leaves me around 100 yards as that it leaves a nice 3/4 SW that I can fly in and stop as like in your case if you get too close it is hard to get enough spin to stop the ball.


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2013)

stevelev said:



			So back to the original issue........How do you play a bump and run to a small green with a pond between you and the hole when your 40 yards out. And even a 60degree doesn't stop on it. If its short your in the water, if its long you roll off the back oob. The green slopes towards you but still wont hold, seen very low hcappers struggle to hold it, so me off 21 how should I approach it...

Some have said course management.........At my level that can only help so much I still duff and slice/hook shots now and then and am always looking to improve...........
		
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as some have indicated, it is course management - because course management is only about going forwards anyway! the keys to CM include -

1. accept where you are and accept the limitations that this brings
2. consider the alternatives honestly
3. commit to your chosen solution completely; it doesn't really matter if it's the wrong choice until after the event, but it matters a lot if you don't commit to it because you won't perform!

in this particular case

1. I've put myself in a difficult situation to play my natural shot. If I play that shot comfortably clear of the bunker it's probably going 30ft past the hole.
2. I could try a Phil M soft flop, I could try and get extra super spin on the shot, I could pitch it exactly 2ft over the bunker with one bounce into the fringe, two bounces there and it should just roll up to the hole.... or I can land it on the fringe and accept that it will probably end up 30' past (do I need to adjust my line in case 30' isn't available?)
3. OK, I'm not Phil so the full swing semi fat solf flop is out, I'm not Sergio or Seve so let's leave that option alone - I have 50ft behind the flag, so playing it normally and within my comfort zone is fine; just going to have a long putt  back (but at least I get to see the break and get a read on the slope/speed as the ball rolls over there. Now, (whatever your positive swing thought is for such shots eg hands leading the clubhead and accelerate through the ball....) and perform.

Note, if it goes in the bunker, or you thin it through the green, and your first thought is 'I knew that was going to happen' you have failed in 2 or 3 above or should have putted round the bunker in the first place!


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## mikee247 (May 15, 2013)

Ive had the green issues explained to me and although it wont be the same for everyone it does kind of make sense if you think about it..... The weather is about 6 weeks late. What I mean in brief is, that its still cold and the grasses are growing late. In our case the normally fantastic green which have two different grasses in them that are growing uneven and providing bumpy greens. 

What this means is that although you can still water them via sprinklers or should be etc they wont be growing like they used to because its still been unusually cold for this time of year and therefore providing that nice lush thick set of grass on the top which will hold your ball when you approach in the summer. Its different in the winter of course because the greens are damp and soft so hold the ball.  So with all this rain now and hopefully an increase in temp soon you should see the growth catch up soon and we can attack some flags and see some "action" on the greens.


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## duncan mackie (May 15, 2013)

mikee247 said:



			.. providing that nice lush thick set of grass on the top which will hold your ball when you approach in the summer.....
		
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it's more to do with the base and the grass height for the spin to take effect, but yes, the annual meadow grass greens are still struggling with uneven growth all over the country and some are being left longer than usual right now to self seed as well (which gives a lush thick set top that is both slow and won't hold well!).


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## Slab (May 16, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			as some have indicated, it is course management - because course management is only about going forwards anyway! the keys to CM include -

1. accept where you are and accept the limitations that this brings
2. consider the alternatives honestly
3. commit to your chosen solution completely; it doesn't really matter if it's the wrong choice until after the event, but it matters a lot if you don't commit to it because you won't perform!

in this particular case

1. I've put myself in a difficult situation to play my natural shot. If I play that shot comfortably clear of the bunker it's probably going 30ft past the hole.
2. I could try a Phil M soft flop, I could try and get extra super spin on the shot, I could pitch it exactly 2ft over the bunker with one bounce into the fringe, two bounces there and it should just roll up to the hole.... or I can land it on the fringe and accept that it will probably end up 30' past (do I need to adjust my line in case 30' isn't available?)
3. OK, I'm not Phil so the full swing semi fat solf flop is out, I'm not Sergio or Seve so let's leave that option alone - I have 50ft behind the flag, so playing it normally and within my comfort zone is fine; just going to have a long putt  back (but at least I get to see the break and get a read on the slope/speed as the ball rolls over there. Now, (whatever your positive swing thought is for such shots eg hands leading the clubhead and accelerate through the ball....) and perform.

Note, if it goes in the bunker, or you thin it through the green, and your first thought is 'I knew that was going to happen' you have failed in 2 or 3 above or should have putted round the bunker in the first place!
		
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Thanks for taking the trouble to post this, I don't think any aspect of CM can ever be posted too often or read too little...just have to remember it this weekend now


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2013)

Before playing Minchinhampton Common last Saturday I was speaking to a member and he commented about their small and rather 'firm' greens (very).  I said I'd be doing a lot of links-type approach shots, bump and run etc.  He said 'not when you see what is around the greens'.  Well I have to say dear member - you don't have much experience of links golf or imagination as I was able to play a links approach shot just about whenever I wanted - maybe not a little 7i bump and run - but that is not the only links golf approach shot.  Only stuck ball up in air with wedge or sand wedge when I had to get over a greenside bunker - and then I had to acceopt that I would styrughle to dtop the ball on the green (which I couldn't). Throw ball up in the air - actually - not as necessary as many might think.

And Duncan is spot on with his CM posting.  Accept your limitations, accept that you must use your shot if you have one, play the shot you know you can play best, and that if executed (as well as you'd hope) gives you the easiest next shot.  Just as Duncan said - better the shot to the back of the green and the putt you can try and read.


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## garyinderry (May 16, 2013)

not to worry. normal service has resumed. the rains have returned to the uk. and how


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