# Rules question - order of play.



## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

A simple scenario...

Player A, Player B and Player C are playing Stableford.

On hole 3: Player A shoots a 6, net 5. Player B shoots a 7, net 6. Player C no returns.

On hole 4, they tee in order A - B - C... 

Player A gets a 4, net 3. Player B gets a 3, net 2. Player C gets a 3, net 2.

What is the order on the 5th and why?

This caused a discussion yesterday at our roll up.


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## USER1999 (May 24, 2012)

B, c, a. It's done on stable ford points, and who had the honour last hole.


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## macca64 (May 24, 2012)

i would of thought b,c,a on count back


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2012)

Yep, I agree... B,C,A


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2012)

B C A 

it's done on net score (which will equate to stableford points if everyone scores but might not).

rule 32-1


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

B, C, A, assuming B's 7 nett 6 had a stableford score.


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## pbrown7582 (May 24, 2012)

B C A  but I always thought it was on gross score not points,


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2012)

pbrown7582 said:



			B C A  but I always thought it was on gross score not points,
		
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medal is gross score

bogey, par and stableford is net score


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## chrisd (May 24, 2012)

B C A for me too


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

pbrown7582 said:



			B C A  but I always thought it was on gross score not points,
		
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See rule 32-1


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## Pro Zach (May 24, 2012)

I was taught the order should remain A-B-C because nobody had the lowest score. I have just come back to golf after about 15 years off and people now seem to play as the answers above. So I have just looked up the rule (10-2).


 I can see why people say it should be B-C-A, but I still think it should be A-B-C.


 It says: â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€


 In the example no competitor had the lowest score, so it should remain the same order as the previous tee.


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I was taught the order should remain A-B-C because nobody had the lowest score. I have just come back to golf after about 15 years off and people now seem to play as the answers above. So I have just looked up the rule (10-2).


 I can see why people say it should be B-C-A, but I still think it should be A-B-C.


 It says: â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€


 In the example no competitor had the lowest score, so it should remain the same order as the previous tee.
		
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you don't like rule 32-1 then?


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## Imurg (May 24, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I was taught the order should remain A-B-C because nobody had the lowest score. I have just come back to golf after about 15 years off and people now seem to play as the answers above. So I have just looked up the rule (10-2).


 I can see why people say it should be B-C-A, but I still think it should be A-B-C.


 It says: â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€


 In the example no competitor had the lowest score, so it should remain the same order as the previous tee.
		
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But as they're playing Stableford it's the Stableford score that counts - not necessarily the number of strokes.


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I was taught the order should remain A-B-C because nobody had the lowest score. I have just come back to golf after about 15 years off and people now seem to play as the answers above. So I have just looked up the rule (10-2).


 I can see why people say it should be B-C-A, but I still think it should be A-B-C.


 It says: â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€


 In the example no competitor had the lowest score, so it should remain the same order as the previous tee.
		
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Read a little further - the exception points you to rule 32-1.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			B, C, A, assuming B's 7 nett 6 had a stableford score.
		
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B's score of 7 for a 6 did not score a point. He tapped in the putt for the sake of keeping a score for his own records but it was a zero point hole.

Does this change things? Would we need to go back to the previous hole because both B and C in effect "no returned" on the third.


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			B's score of 7 for a 6 did not score a point. He tapped in the putt for the sake of keeping a score for his own records but it was a zero point hole.

Does this change things?
		
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Yes.


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Read a little further - the exception points you to rule 32-1.
		
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2+2 - if he's reading 15 year old rule book it won't of course..........introduced in 2008 edition


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Yes.
		
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How so?

Would we need to go back to the second to split B and C?


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

On hole 4 the order should have been A, followed by the better stableford score between B and C on hole 2 as B's non-stableford score on hole 3 is irrelevant. Are you sure this was a friendly?


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## Imurg (May 24, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			Player A, Player B and Player C are playing Stableford.

On hole 3: Player A shoots a 6, net 5. Player B shoots a 7, net 6. Player C no returns.

On hole 4, they tee in order A - B - C... 

Player A gets a 4, net 3. Player B gets a 3, net 2. Player C gets a 3, net 2.
		
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Whether Player B gets a point for his 7 on the 3rd is , to my mind, irrelevent - a 6/5 is always going to beat a 7/6 which is always going to beat a blob

 And once they've teed off the 4th in the order A, B, C. the that is the order - move on.

After all it's only Stableford - who cares who goes first..?


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## duncan mackie (May 24, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			B's score of 7 for a 6 did not score a point. He tapped in the putt for the sake of keeping a score for his own records but it was a zero point hole.

Does this change things? Would we need to go back to the previous hole because both B and C in effect "no returned" on the third.
		
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no it doesn't - please read rule 32-1, it's really really clear!


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Whether Player B gets a point for his 7 on the 3rd is , to my mind, irrelevent - a 6/5 is always going to beat a 7/6 which is always going to beat a blob

 And once they've teed off the 4th in the order A, B, C. the that is the order - move on.

After all it's only Stableford - who cares who goes first..?
		
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Exactly - who cares? but you're wrong.


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## Imurg (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Exactly - who cares? but you're wrong.
		
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On which bit..?


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Imurg said:



			On which bit..?
		
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My headhurts after one and a half bottles, but:

On hole 4,A has the honour by virtue of the best stableford score on hole 3. Neither B nor C scored a point on hole 3, therefore their order is decided by the points they scored on hole 2 (their gross score on hole 3 is irrelevant as neither scored a stableford point).
On hole 5, B or C (assuming the same points score on hole 4) has the honour depending on who should have played second on hole 4.

I have definitely lost the will to live.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			On hole 4 the order should have been A, followed by the better stableford score between B and C on hole 2 as B's non-stableford score on hole 3 is irrelevant. Are you sure this was a friendly?
		
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It's technically a comp because Â£1 each is at stake but it's a nine hole hack around for practice for charity, really.

Basically this is what happened.

I was player B.

On the 3rd, we teed off in order of: C - B - A.

As explained A took the 3rd with 1 point, then B (myself) and C took "no returns" though I did tap in for a 7 net 6.

On the 4th tee, we went in order of A - B (myself) - C which I didn't understand as I felt I should have been last but I thought at the time C waved me on because he wasn't ready and it wasn't a serious comp. It wasn't until the 5th tee that I found out why he had actually told me to go first. 

So as explained we hole out on the 4th with Player B (myself) taking a 3, net 2. Player C took the same, with Player A taking a 4 net 3.

Now I know at this stage that the order on the 3rd was wrong (and actually related to the second hole in their eyes) but FOR NOW ignore that and pretend we thought we had it right on the 3rd and I'll explain that after we've sorted this one.

I teed up on the fifth only to be told by Player A to get on my bike and wait my turn because I hadn't won the previous hole outright (because C also had a 3) thus we retain order of him before me. It was said in jest I thought so I laughed it off but he was deadly serious. 

I didn't have my rules book in my bag so didn't want to make an issue and with it not being a serious comp I let it slide but I spent the rest of the round convinced I was in the right and I wanted to make sure.

To make matters worse, they claimed that the rules goes further to say that the order from the previous hole rotates for those making the same score with the person who went first the previous time dropping to the back.

Thus we actually teed off on the 5th in the order of A - C - B!

Going back to why we teed off in the order we did on the 4th, they said that because C had teed off before me (Player B) on the 3rd but had failed to better my "no return" with his own, the same rotation rule had applied between myself and him and thus he went to the back of all the players who scored the same, in this case myself and him.


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## williamalex1 (May 24, 2012)

is there a penalty . for not playing the latest version of the teeing off order. some of our older players still play the old format, i.e. if the player who had the honour takes a 5 and the other two players take 4s. he still has the honour.and if, there is a penalty are all the players penalised if this is done throughtout the round , or disquallified.  in stroke medal play


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## Pro Zach (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Read a little further - the exception points you to rule 32-1.
		
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 I read rule 32-1 because Duncan pointed to it in post #5. I have re-read it and it says â€œIn handicap bogey,par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing groundâ€.


 The OP says both B and C scored 3 net 2. Neither one had the lowest score, gross or nett, so no one won the honour.


 Whether anyone scored points or not seems irrelevant. It is based on the nett score.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			some of our older players still play the old format, i.e. if the player who had the honour takes a 5 and the other two players take 4s. he still has the honour.
		
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This might explain part of my question!


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I read rule 32-1 because Duncan pointed to it in post #5. I have re-read it and it says â€œIn handicap bogey,par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing groundâ€.


 The OP says both B and C scored 3 net 2. Neither one had the lowest score, gross or nett, so no one won the honour.


 Whether anyone scored points or not seems irrelevant. It is based on the nett score.
		
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I'm glad there is someone even more confused than me. It's based on stableford points scored.


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			is there a penalty . for not playing the latest version of the teeing off order. some of our older players still play the old format, i.e. if the player who had the honour takes a 5 and the other two players take 4s. he still has the honour.and if, there is a penalty are all the players penalised if this is done throughtout the round , or disquallified
		
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There is no penalty - it's a lot of hot air but it passes the time till we tee off tomorrow morning.


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## bladeplayer (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I'm glad there is someone even more confused than me.
		
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and if either you , Duncan Or Mashie are confused how you think the rest of us mere mortals  feel


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## williamalex1 (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			There is no penalty - it's a lot of hot air but it passes the time till we tee off tomorrow morning.
		
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 yes and  we tend to pass it more and more as we get older. i can play tunes  with mine now.


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## Pro Zach (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			There is no penalty - it's a lot of hot air but it passes the time till we tee off tomorrow morning.
		
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Lucky sod. I'm passing time till I go to work tomorrow morning.


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			Lucky sod. I'm passing time till I go to work tomorrow morning.
		
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My commiserations - I'll be thinking of you.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			My commiserations - I'll be thinking of you.
		
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Can you confirm from my rather long winded post above that Player A was wrong to retain honour for the 5th and that C shouldn't have dropped behind B after the 3rd?

Sorry to pester, just need to know before I have a word with these two when next I see them.


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## williamalex1 (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			My commiserations - I'll be thinking of you.
		
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 i do requests , no rude ones  please , don,t want to turn the air blue, do wee


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			Can you confirm from my rather long winded post above that Player A was wrong to retain honour for the 5th and that C shouldn't have dropped behind B after the 3rd?

Sorry to pester, just need to know before I have a word with these two when next I see them. 

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See my answer #24. Don't ask me to repeat it or I will die.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			See my answer #24. Don't ask me to repeat it or I will die.
		
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Cheers, missed that amongst the replies. Really appreciated.

Would their "interpretation" have been accurate in other forms of the game?


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## rosecott (May 24, 2012)

Kellfire said:



			Cheers, missed that amongst the replies. Really appreciated.

Would their "interpretation" have been accurate in other forms of the game?
		
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Rule 32-1 applies to Bogey and Stableford comps - any more questions and you will die.


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2012)

I pity the people playing behind you while you check your rule book .

And as for A checking you when you teed up?
If it was his honour he should have been there.

I really hate seeing a group having a long rambling discussion about who scored what 3 holes ago.
Someone step up and hit it!


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## Region3 (May 25, 2012)

I can understand confusion between points and nett or gross scores deciding the honour, but to think that some people are adamant that equal scores rotate or you have to win a hole outright to get the honour is unreal.


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## bladeplayer (May 25, 2012)

Honour nevers bother me in the least , if your ready , bang away . played with a prominent member one day in a club comp , i can SOMETIMES hit it a fair way so i was  waiting for the group ahead to move on , he said your up there , i told him i was waiting to work away if he wanted to , he said he would to keep it moving .. 
Happend a few times & all was well until the 15th tee , he was up,  but was chating to member on another hole beside our tee , i teed up only to hear , oih sonny boy get down its not your honour .. when i didnt get banned out of the club for life right there and then , i never will


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## Pro Zach (May 25, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I can understand confusion between points and nett or gross scores deciding the honour, but to think that some people are adamant that equal scores rotate or you have to win a hole outright to get the honour is unreal.
		
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  I can't understand the confusion about points and net or gross score. I don't know why people are saying it is based on points. Rule 32-1 says:- â€œIn handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€ It therefore has nothing to do with points scored.


 When I played years ago someone had to win the hole outright to change the order. I don't have an old rulebook so don't know if the rule is now worded differently or if people are interpreting it differently. 


 I think rule 10-2 is ambiguous and could be interpreted both ways.


 I would argue that in the OP the order should remain A-B-C, because nobody had the lowest score. To argue as others did that the order should be B-C-A means that B and C both had the lowest score.  It is a fact that both B and C had the lowest score as a comparative to A. But neither had the lowest score as a comparative to each other. They had the same score.


 Rule 10-2 says:- â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€ 


 As B and C had the same score, neither of them can have the lowest score, so neither should win the honour.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Rule 32-1 applies to Bogey and Stableford comps - any more questions and you will die.
		
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And for those too lazy to look it up, here's a link to The Rules!

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=32&subRuleNum=1

Apologies if this has already been provided, but couldn't be arsed reading through the amount of dross on this simple question and answer - though the change in 2008 probably contributed a little.


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## Region3 (May 25, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			When I played years ago someone had to win the hole outright to change the order. I don't have an old rulebook so don't know if the rule is now worded differently or if people are interpreting it differently. 


 I think rule 10-2 is ambiguous and could be interpreted both ways.


 ...


 Rule 10-2 says:- â€œThe competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€ 


 As B and C had the same score, neither of them can have the lowest score, so neither should win the honour.
		
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A slightly longer extract from 10-2

_"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If *two or more* competitors have the same score at a hole, *they *play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."
_
I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way round.


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2012)

When playing with those who like to stick rigidly to correct order, I find it ok when playing medal as it's simple - best score has the honour.
With stableford, the trouble is that I, as player A, know if my nett score is better or worse than player B, as I am marking her card.
I will most probably know what player C has scored gross, but unless she is playing off the same hcp as either myself or player B, I won't know her net score.
This has been a problem a couple of times playing with a much lower chp player who is a stickler for the rules!


I would be very irrritated by someone who was not ready to play cos they maybe werechatting to other players, who then got all uppity if I proceeded to the tee to play ready golf.

You snooze, you lose  - should be the decider!


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## rosecott (May 25, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I can't understand the confusion about points and net or gross score. I don't know why people are saying it is based on points. Rule 32-1 says:- â€œIn handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.â€ It therefore has nothing to do with points scored.
.
		
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Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.


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## Region3 (May 25, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.
		
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I think maybe it just means that "all 0 points are not equal" ie. a 7 for 0 would take the honour over an 8 for 0, because the rule says net score rather than points.

I think.


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## Pro Zach (May 25, 2012)

Region3 said:



			A slightly longer extract from 10-2

_"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If *two or more* competitors have the same score at a hole, *they *play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."
_
I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way round.
		
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 I can see and understand why you and others interpret the rule as you do. If I had just taken up golf and been told that the honour changes if there is a joint lowest score I might not question the interpretation of the rule. 
 I said earlier that I didn't know if the rule had changed since I last played golf. I have just looked it up and the rule was the same in the 1992 rules. I played golf for 7 years in the nineties and never did anyone suggest that the honour should change if more than one player had the lowest score.


 I don't know how or why it happened but it now seems the same rule is interpreted differently.


 I don't think the sentence you highlighted is supposed to apply unless one competitor has the lowest score. I would highlight "The *competitor* with the *lowest score* at a hole takes the honour.â€ Not until a competitor(singular) has the lowest score does the rest apply.


 Obviously I could be wrong. We would have to ask whoever made the rule what they meant to happen, to be certain.


 But there must be people on here who have played throughout that period? Does anyone know when or why it changed?


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## Region3 (May 26, 2012)

Maybe someone who has Sky will notice watching a tour event.

Example, order is Rory, Tiger, Luke. Luke and Tiger make 4, Rory makes 5. See who tees off first next hole


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## Pro Zach (May 26, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.
		
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 No, I am trying to stop the confusion caused by people insisting it has everything to do with points, when  the rules say it is based on nett score.


 According to the rules, if player A has a nett 8 and B and C have nett 9 then A has the honour,  although nobody scored any points.


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## rosecott (May 26, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			No, I am trying to stop the confusion caused by people insisting it has everything to do with points, when  the rules say it is based on nett score.


 According to the rules, if player A has a nett 8 and B and C have nett 9 then A has the honour,  although nobody scored any points.
		
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In the interests of sanity and the eradication of slow play, I would have expected that all of them picked up without holing out as they couldn't score points. The order of teeing off would therefore remain unchanged from the previous tee.


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## bobmac (May 26, 2012)

52 posts (so far) to decide whos turn it is to play first in a s/ford?
I'm pleased I'm not playing behind you lot.


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## Imurg (May 26, 2012)

I agree.
Unless it's Matchplay, I can't see that it really matters who goes first...


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## rosecott (May 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			52 posts (so far) to decide whos turn it is to play first in a s/ford?
I'm pleased I'm not playing behind you lot.


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Take the positives, Bob.

The longer we stay on here spouting drivel and wasting the best days of our lives, the less chance there is of us clogging up the tees, fairways and greens.


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## North Mimms (May 26, 2012)

Why isn't there a "like" button for posts like these!


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## bobmac (May 26, 2012)

North Mimms said:



			Why isn't there a "like" button for posts like these!
		
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Just cut and paste it to your FB page and then you can 'Like it' there.

There was a way of rating the whole thread at the top where it says 'Rate this thread'


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## MashieNiblick (May 26, 2012)

Region3 said:



			A slightly longer extract from 10-2

_"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at  the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score  plays next and so on. If *two or more* competitors have the same score at a hole, *they *play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."
_
I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted  in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the  same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A  scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A  was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way  round.
		
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Pro Zach said:



			I can see and understand why you and others interpret the rule as you do. If I had just taken up golf and been told that the honour changes if there is a joint lowest score I might not question the interpretation of the rule. 
 I said earlier that I didn't know if the rule had changed since I last played golf. I have just looked it up and the rule was the same in the 1992 rules. I played golf for 7 years in the nineties and never did anyone suggest that the honour should change if more than one player had the lowest score.


 I don't know how or why it happened but it now seems the same rule is interpreted differently.


 I don't think the sentence you highlighted is supposed to apply unless one competitor has the lowest score. I would highlight "The *competitor* with the *lowest score* at a hole takes the honour.â€ Not until a competitor(singular) has the lowest score does the rest apply.


 Obviously I could be wrong. We would have to ask whoever made the rule what they meant to happen, to be certain.


 But there must be people on here who have played throughout that period? Does anyone know when or why it changed?
		
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Region3's interpretation is correct as confirmed by the FAQs for this Rule on the R&A website:

_"1. In a handicap stroke play competition, how is the honour determined?

The honour is determined according to the gross scores at each individual hole. For example: A, B and C are playing in a group and the order of play on the 1st tee is A, B ,C. On the 1st hole A scores 6, B scores 5 and C scores 5. The order of play on the 2nd tee is B then C then A."_

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=10&subRuleNum=2

I don't think this has ever been different. In all the 40 years I have been playing the situation has always been as set out there, i.e. that if 2  players tie they take the honour over higher scoring players and,  between them, tee off in the order they tee'd off on the last hole. As far as I am aware the interpretation of this rule has never changed in that time. Otherwise as Region says you could have a situation where the player with the highest score has the honour which is the opposite of what the Rule says.


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## williamalex1 (May 26, 2012)

Region3 said:



			Maybe someone who has Sky will notice watching a tour event.

Example, order is Rory, Tiger, Luke. Luke and Tiger make 4, Rory makes 5. See who tees off first next hole 

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whoever was second on the last tee would have the honour and rory would be last, in the old system the order would stay as it was


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## duncan mackie (May 26, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			I don't think this has ever been different. In all the 40 years I have been playing the situation has always been as set out there, i.e. that if 2  players tie they take the honour over higher scoring players and,  between them, tee off in the order they tee'd off on the last hole. As far as I am aware the interpretation of this rule has never changed in that time.
		
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the honour in stroke play first entered the Rules of Golf in the 1908 rules edition (to come into force from 1.1.1909) under rule 1 of the Special Rules for Stroke Play Competitions section.

nothing changed until the 2008 rules edition which added the exception to rule 10-2 referencing 32-1 in relation to the honour in handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions.

32-1 states "In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground."

it makes absolutely no reference to stableford points


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## MashieNiblick (May 26, 2012)

Cheers Duncan.

I just don't get where this idea comes from that there was a time recently when if 2 players tied the order didn't change even if they both scored lower than the player who had the honour on the previous tee.


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## williamalex1 (May 26, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Cheers Duncan.

I just don't get where this idea comes from that there was a time recently when if 2 players tied the order didn't change even if they both scored lower than the player who had the honour on the previous tee.
		
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I assure you,  thats the way it used to be many years ago.  you stayed  in the middle position till you  won a hole outright ,when the player who had the honour lost it , he went to the end. . maybe it was different elsewhere but thats the way it was played when i started playing in the seventies, up until the nineties


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## rosecott (May 26, 2012)

Not relevant to the current discussion but:

When we play a club match at the home course of one of our neighbouring clubs (4-ball better ball matchplay), they insist that the honour rotates hole by hole until one side wins a hole.


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## MashieNiblick (May 26, 2012)

Well, there you go. I've been playing club comps in 3 balls since about the mid 80's. We never so far as I am aware ever played it that way in my neck of the woods. Thinking about it, before then I played mostly 2-balls so it wouldn't have been an issue.


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## duncan mackie (May 26, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			I assure you,  thats the way it used to be many years ago.  you stayed  in the middle position till you  won a hole outright ,when the player who had the honour lost it , he went to the end. . maybe it was different elsewhere but thats the way it was played when i started playing in the seventies, up until the nineties
		
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I can sort of understand why people interpreted the rule that way prior to 1984, when the rules were completely re-written/structured with a greater focus in stroke play. At that time the current wording came in.

Prior to that, lets take the 1976 version to see what happened - it was rule 12 in those days...

[h=3]Rule 12.  The Honour[/h] *1.  The Honour
a. Match Play* 
A match begins by each side playing a ball from the first teeing ground in the order of the draw.  In the absence of a draw, the option of taking the honour shall be decided by lot.
The side which wins a hole shall take the honour at the next teeing  ground. If a hole has been halved, the side which had the honour at the  previous teeing ground shall retain it. 
*b. Stroke play* 
The honour shall be taken as in match play.

Now the reason for this wording was - 1. the game was matchplay (still!) and 2. it was played as a 2 ball (4 people played foursomes) in both formats. This is reflected in the concept of only 2 people in the above wording.

against this background, if 3 people were playing strokeplay the question of the honour would be decided between each as a match, not amongst all of them as one match. the result is effectively the same: you tee off ahead of anyone you beat, the same order with anyone you match and behind any one who beat you.

Overall this thread has clearly illustrated that what's done, and what the rules say in this area, are not necessarily the same thing!


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			the honour in stroke play first entered the Rules of Golf in the 1908 rules edition (to come into force from 1.1.1909) under rule 1 of the Special Rules for Stroke Play Competitions section.

nothing changed until the 2008 rules edition which added the exception to rule 10-2 referencing 32-1 in relation to the honour in handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions.

32-1 states "In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground."

*it makes absolutely no reference to stableford points*

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My heavens! Another day goes by and this thread still hasn't been put to bed!

Lowest nett score is equivalent to highest stableford points btw, so either will do. But you are correct; The Rules only mention 'lowest nett score'. Of course, The Rules are worded to avoid duplication/ambiguity.


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## Pro Zach (May 27, 2012)

Thanks Duncan.


 It is clear from the R&A answer that the popular answer on here was correct and how I was taught and was trying to argue is incorrect. 


 It is probably difficult for people who have only seen it as it should be to understand why it was misinterpreted. But if you were playing under the old rule 12, where someone had to win the hole, and the new wording was introduced, I think it is reasonable to interpret it the wrong way. It would be reasonable to assume someone had to still have the lowest score and the new wording was to clarify who went 2[SUP]nd[/SUP], 3[SUP]rd[/SUP],and 4[SUP]th[/SUP]. It would be easy to think the new wording was just to accommodate the introduction of individual stoke play, and the principle of someone having to have the lowest score to take the honour remained. 


 It is also clear that Mashie has never played it that way yet me and Williamalex1 have. So perhaps it was interpreted differently in different areas. Obviously some people are still doing it the wrong way because Kellfire wrote in post #25:- â€œIteed up on the fifth only to be told by Player A to get on my bike and wait my turn because I hadn't won the previous hole outright(because C also had a 3) thus we retain order of him before me.â€ It is perhaps relevant that Kellfire is in Middlesbrough and I previously played all my golf in the North East.


 I'm not bothered what order I tee off or what method is used to decide, but it would be preferable if everyone uses the same method. I played the wrong way for 7 years and have just started playing the right way so I am probably biased, but at the moment I slightly favour the wrong way. Because it was harder to win the honour it seemed to mean more to have it. Now I often feel I have the honour because someone lost it, not because I won it. It was also slightly simpler because it changed less often. Perhaps when I get more used to it my opinion will change.


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## Pro Zach (May 27, 2012)

rosecott said:



			In the interests of sanity and the eradication of slow play, I would have expected that all of them picked up without holing out as they couldn't score points. The order of teeing off would therefore remain unchanged from the previous tee.
		
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What you expect and what actuallyhappens aren't necessarily the same thing.


 As an example, the first hole at my course is a par 4 with oob on the right. If I slice 2 drives oob I would play 5 off the tee even though I can't score points. You might expect me to pick up and walk the first thinking about 2 sliced drives in preparation for the par 5 second with oob on the right, but I'm not going to. I'm going to play it, try to calm down, and have a couple of putts in preparation for the rest of the round.


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## williamalex1 (May 27, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			What you expect and what actuallyhappens aren't necessarily the same thing.


 As an example, the first hole at my course is a par 4 with oob on the right. If I slice 2 drives oob I would play 5 off the tee even though I can't score points. You might expect me to pick up and walk the first thinking about 2 sliced drives in preparation for the par 5 second with oob on the right, but I'm not going to. I'm going to play it, try to calm down, and have a couple of putts in preparation for the rest of the round.
		
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has no one played a game called skins.each player has to put in say a pound per hole.  you have to win the hole on you own, to win the money and honour, or the stake money carries on, and on with every player putting a pound in at every hole, till its won outright . then it starts over again. it's allmost the same format.


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2012)

Played in the midweek roll up last night. Two different playing partners, same error. This time I stood my ground and explained it to both of them...


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## danny1 (Jun 1, 2012)

Why does anyone care about order of play? Doesn't matter a hoot unless it's matchplay


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## williamalex1 (Jun 1, 2012)

so you think so ...in this club championship play off scenario, which position would you prefer 1st, 2nd.or3 rd . on the 18th tee. all 3players tied .The last hole  has .oob. on the right,  oob on the left . A  ditch , just about your carry distance on a dry runny day.[stroke play]


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2012)

Although still strokeplay, a playoff is, in effect, a matchplay scenario so order of play is important.
In normal strokeplay the order doesn't really matter.


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