# Boris the PM - a new beginning



## Mudball (Jul 23, 2019)

..and there we have it..  Voted by nearly 100k toris and getting ready to take the UK out of EU at all cost by halloween.... presenting BoJo the PM.
I cant wait for the wise words that he is going to speak.   Will we get the 'smart, clever and wise' Boris or will he continue his BoJo the Buffoon Foreign Secretary role?  I am all excited.

Will he appoint May back as Brexit secretary... What will happen to the Bus?

Raising a toast to our glorious future


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## Beezerk (Jul 23, 2019)

I'll wait and judge him on how he performs as pm.
I'm not interested in how unpopular he is on social media tbh.


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2019)

First speech; not impressed. Wasn't awful but I expected more.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 23, 2019)

And so the comedy show continues.....


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## Wolf (Jul 23, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I'll wait and judge him on how he performs as pm.
I'm not interested in how unpopular he is on social media tbh.
		
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100% agree with this statement. 

What's gone in the past with him now and his social media persona now becomes irrelevant, its what he does going forward that matters. His first speech wasn't to bad it was never going to involve a lot of political policy only a thank you for a chance to deliver and that work begins.


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First speech; not impressed. Wasn't awful but I expected more.
		
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He was allocated 10min for the 'acceptance speech'. I get you aren't a fan but honestly what did you expect a new manifesto? He did what was required no more no less.


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## User20204 (Jul 23, 2019)

Can't wait, so glad I voted for him.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 23, 2019)

Wolf said:



			What's gone in the past with him now and his social media persona now becomes irrelevant, its what he does going forward that matters. .
		
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Are you suggesting his failings as FS should be swept under the carpet? Along with the promises he failed to deliver... Some he even did the complete opposite to what he advised was his intention...


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## Wolf (Jul 23, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Are you suggesting his failings as FS should be swept under the carpet? Along with the promises he failed to deliver... Some he even did the complete opposite to what he advised was his intention...
		
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I'm suggesting it time to look forward not backwards because we cannot change what's gone on before but only affect what happens going forward.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 23, 2019)

I couldn't care if Kermit the Frog was in No.10 so long as we leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  And there is more chance of it happening with Boris as PM than anyone else.  So good for him.


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First speech; not impressed. Wasn't awful but I expected more.
		
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Remember his effort at the handover (to London) of the Olympics? Most definitely cringeworthy! but he seemed a good delegator (and credit taker!) as London Mayor - to a large degree, on the back of his predecessor's plans!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 23, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'm suggesting it time to look forward not backwards because we cannot change what's gone on before but only affect what happens going forward.
		
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All I can see is a trail of failure behind him with the strong likelihood of a trail of failure before him... And, that is partly of my knowledge of failing a constituent who sought his help... Despite a promise of help he didn't...


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## Kaizer_Soze (Jul 23, 2019)

I wouldn't trust that buffoon with a TV remote, never mind the country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

_Well, I look at you this morning and I ask myself: do you look daunted? Do you feel daunted? I don't think you look remotely daunted to me. _

This is like a classic three-parter - building to a crescendo.  I have a wee feeling that there was maybe supposed to be a pause after the first _daunted - _to allow the adoring acolytes to respond with a resounding _NO_!  And likewise after the second _daunted_ - another resounding _NO_!  With thunderous roar of approval as he rounded the triplet off.

Or maybe he thought that that might be a bit too Trumpian.

I'm utterly horrified but perversely very delighted that he has got the job.  Short may he reign.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2019)

Kaizer_Soze said:



			I wouldn't trust that buffoon with a TV remote, never mind the country.
		
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With a remote you can change things.  I want things changed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			With a remote you can change things.  I want things changed.
		
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Not if the batteries are in the wrong way round...


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			With a remote you can change things.  I want things changed.
		
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Not if your neighbours have a remote on the same frequency and both you and them keep chaning both your channels all the time


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## MegaSteve (Jul 23, 2019)

There's the thing... Boris flip flops his opinions so often you'd think he is being operated remotely from several sources...


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			He was allocated 10min for the 'acceptance speech'. I get you aren't a fan but honestly what did you expect a new manifesto? He did what was required no more no less.
		
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In your opinion. I expected him to speak with a bit of authority, confidence and gravitas. I might not be his greatest fan but I did expect him to sound like a statesman, not a bumbling 6th former.

Am I sold on him? No. Do I want him to fail? Hell no! He's the best of a bad bunch, and I'll take that till someone decent sticks their head above the parapet.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153625608431263746


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 23, 2019)

7.5 Billion people in the world and Trump & Boris are running things in their country ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 23, 2019)

Well played BoJo - he may act like an idiot but he has played the whole situation perfectly 

Campaign for Brexit - run away when it goes his way , hide in the cabinet , quit and snipe from the back bench - when the poo hits the fan out he comes with the trumpet to save the UK 

Thankfully he isnâ€™t a racist idiot like Trump but he is a complete clown - a clown who is going to represent us - god help the UK , suspect he is already bending over for Trump right now


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 23, 2019)

Trump,Boris & that Korean bloke canâ€™t even choose a decent hair cut,weâ€™re all doomed.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			, suspect he is already bending over for Trump right now
		
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Blimey thatâ€™s quite a accusation & quite frankly not one one that you should be making on this forum Phillip.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2019)

It really looks like Benny Hill has just entered No10. 

Johnson will go soon, probably resign. He has no interest in running the UK [or what is left of it]
He will then make a fortune on the US speakers circuit as an ex UK prime minister
What he has planned all along.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well played BoJo - he may act like an idiot but he has played the whole situation perfectly

Campaign for Brexit - run away when it goes his way , hide in the cabinet , quit and snipe from the back bench - when the poo hits the fan out he comes with the trumpet to save the UK

Thankfully he isnâ€™t a racist idiot like Trump but he is a complete clown - a clown who is going to represent us - god help the UK , suspect he is already bending over for Trump right now
		
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OK he'll have (hopefully) decent advisers and doers around him as risk mitigation - but he will be one-on-one with some tough cookies in the EU wj will put him under serious pressure.

And we can look at what that will be like by the way he responded to tough and direct questioning by Andrew Neil a couple of weekends back.  He just couldn't take that he wasn't getting his own way in how he wished to answer Neil's questions - and he did not like it.  You could see he was getting riled and angry - and started rather angry ya-boo-sucks finger pointing when Neil did a misspeak referring to Article 5c when he meant Paragraph 5c.  You could tell Neil thought the finger pointing rather pathetic as he looked away from Johnson and ignored it.

Now did anyone spot BJ mixing Dublin and Belfast up when being interviewed by the Political Editor of The Sun - Tom Newton Dunn.  No?  Well he did.  And he actually paused and thought about the city in Ireland he wanted to refer to before opening his mouth. He still got it wrong.  Even when under little pressure such as then, he still gets things wrong - and these things can actually matter - as Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe knows to her cost.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 23, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'm suggesting it time to look forward not backwards because we cannot change what's gone on before but only affect what happens going forward.
		
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And  can u have hope for future with BJ history .. ?


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## Wolf (Jul 23, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			And  can u have hope for future with BJ history .. ?
		
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Of course I can because that's the hand we're dealt, personally rather look forward than backwards. Don't see the point in bitching and complaining this is the party that was voted in to run the country and he is now it's premier. So rather than complain about it I'll try and take the positives a d move on.


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## robinthehood (Jul 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I couldn't care if Kermit the Frog was in No.10 so long as we leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  And there is more chance of it happening with Boris as PM than anyone else.  So good for him.
		
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Why is it so important to leave on the 31st ? I find this whole leave at all cost and sod the damage attitude  pretty pathetic to be honest. 
He has to do  what's right for the country. I'm interested to see how that pans out now he has got the top job. 
I'm thinking of putting a double on that him and ole gunner will be out of their respective jobs within a year


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## Old Skier (Jul 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why is it so important to leave on the 31st ? I find this whole leave at all cost and sod the damage attitude  pretty pathetic to be honest.
He has to do  what's right for the country. I'm interested to see how that pans out now he has got the top job.
I'm thinking of putting a double on that him and ole gunner will be out of their respective jobs within a year
		
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Possibly because untill we leave it's impossible to move forward. Just a thought.


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well played BoJo - he may act like an idiot but he has played the whole situation perfectly

Campaign for Brexit - run away when it goes his way , hide in the cabinet , quit and snipe from the back bench - when the poo hits the fan out he comes with the trumpet to save the UK

Thankfully he isnâ€™t a racist idiot like Trump but he is a complete clown - a clown who is going to represent us - god help the UK , suspect he is already bending over for Trump right now
		
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Heâ€™s not exactly my cup of tea, but hereâ€™s a thought. Unlike Trump, whoâ€™s a grade 1 jerk with virtually no political background, BoJo has played a blinder over a number of years in a number of areas. Maybe he isnâ€™t a clown. 

Maybe Iâ€™m hoping for a miracle. One things for sure, unless heâ€™s got a rabbit up his sleeve, heâ€™s dealing with the same Parliament that May didnâ€™t have a majority in. I suspect it wonâ€™t end well.


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## User62651 (Jul 23, 2019)

Interested in the more in depth news pieces they ran on him, gifted and ambitious but lazy with it it seems. 
Will give him a chance, things will get interesting come the autumn though. Has a lot of enemies in his own party and likely a majority of 1 soon.
This stalemate fug we've been in for years is not going to suddenly disappear because Boris says he's an optimist.

Bit surprised and interested at Farage's view on sky news, he remains convinced BJ can't achieve much without first calling a General Election.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2019)

My Mrs, who is generally too posh to swear, keeps wandering around the house saying Boris @~@~@@~ Johnson.


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## Kellfire (Jul 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I couldn't care if Kermit the Frog was in No.10 so long as we leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  And there is more chance of it happening with Boris as PM than anyone else.  So good for him.
		
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You donâ€™t care about any political decisions as long as we leave Brexit. You truly are lost.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You donâ€™t care about any political decisions as long as we leave Brexit. You truly are lost.
		
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If we leave Brexit we remain.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well played BoJo - he may act like an idiot but he has played the whole situation perfectly

Campaign for Brexit - run away when it goes his way , hide in the cabinet , quit and snipe from the back bench - when the poo hits the fan out he comes with the trumpet to save the UK

Thankfully he isnâ€™t a racist idiot like Trump but he is a complete clown - a clown who is going to represent us - god help the UK , suspect he is already bending over for Trump right now
		
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Thank you for keeping us Informed and enlightened your Saintimoniousness.    Nice to see a bit of even handed comment in these days of sensationalism and exaggeration.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank you for keeping us Informed and enlightened your Saintimoniousness.    Nice to see a bit of even handed comment in these days of sensationalism and exaggeration.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ do you even play golf ? 

I donâ€™t ever see you comment on any golf related threads ? You just spout stuff on then political nonsense- are you a golfer ?


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It really looks like Benny Hill has just entered No10. 

Johnson will go soon, probably resign. He has no interest in running the UK [or what is left of it]
He will then make a fortune on the US speakers circuit as an ex UK prime minister
What he has planned all along.
		
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I would assume that you have direct knowledge of working with BJ that enabled you to make these statements and personal digs.

I have undertaken a few projects that involved BJ and would disagree with your assessment. You might reflect on the good reports from numerousFMs of other nations. 

Let's hope we have a few ratonal people around.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ do you even play golf ?

I donâ€™t ever see you comment on any golf related threads ? You just spout stuff on then political nonsense- are you a golfer ?
		
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What a cop out ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

I have posted many hundreds even thousands of times in the golf threads but find many of them talking about the same old thing, bit like you on here.

I play golf at a good level, I am a member of two very good golf clubs.  If you would like a lesson then please pop over, if you want to know anything about the golf swing I am sure I can put you right.
Heres one I posted recently:
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/ball-flight-laws-who-knows.101688/#post-2005765


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2019)

At least one 'good' thing has come out of his election... the legitiimisation of certain nouns!

According to John Pienaar's mini-bio of him, he described Ken Livingstone's 'critique' of the Public School system  (eons before opposing him for Mayor of Londod) as  â€œ*twaddle*, utter bunkum, balderdash, tommyrot, piffle and fiddlesticksâ€! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/2gvE3Pa8Gv/Boris_Johnson_battles


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## howbow88 (Jul 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I couldn't care if Kermit the Frog was in No.10 so long as we leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  And there is more chance of it happening with Boris as PM than anyone else.  So good for him.
		
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I'm curious. How far do you go with that? 

Would a Love Island contestant do? Someone who thinks the earth is flat? Mussolini? Hitler? 

Surely, there are other things politically you care about other than leaving the EU by the end of October?


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## User62651 (Jul 24, 2019)

howbow88 said:



			I'm curious. How far do you go with that?

Would a Love Island contestant do? Someone who thinks the earth is flat? Mussolini? Hitler?

Surely, there are other things politically you care about other than leaving the EU by the end of October?
		
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To be fair to PS this is how an awful lot of people are thinking - happens with a close run referendum with a result that is supposed to be long term (as opposed to a 5 year GE term), with the winners denied and the losers frustrated, no common ground with a binary choice (that was not in reality a binary choice), so no closure, then acrimony and anger, almost like civil war mindsets, people get dug in and blinkered in their views. 
Leaving the EU will make no positive difference to the man in the street imo but that's now by the by, detail doesn't matter, as long as we leave and that's how Johnson has won the leadership race by playing on that. I'm waiting for the u-turns/backtracking from him soon enough when he likely can't leave by Halloweeen.

We've had it double up here with the Indyref before the EU in/out ref. Neither issue is near resolution as a great many folks are so polarised in their views.

I can't see any short or medium term resolution to either issue.

Yet although everyone says they're fed up with politics/politicians and Brexit and Indyref2 etc etc the issues will not go away. 
UK is struggling, something will have to give.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I would assume that you have direct knowledge of working with BJ that enabled you to make these statements and personal digs.

I have undertaken a few projects that involved BJ and would disagree with your assessment. You might reflect on the good reports from numerousFMs of other nations.

Let's hope we have a few ratonal people around.
		
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Not hearing many 'good' reports to be honest.
The ones that are seem to be coming from people who have previously said he was an idiot and that they would never work with him... like the Scottish Secretary.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a cop out ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

I have posted many hundreds even thousands of times in the golf threads but find many of them talking about the same old thing, bit like you on here.

I play golf at a good level, I am a member of two very good golf clubs.  If you would like a lesson then please pop over, if you want to know anything about the golf swing I am sure I can put you right.
Heres one I posted recently:
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/ball-flight-laws-who-knows.101688/#post-2005765

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Cop out from what ?!

You posted your normal snide derogatory post towards someone who shares an opinion you donâ€™t agree with. Itâ€™s your normal mode of operation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2019)

Scotland's welcome to Johnson.

#https://stv.tv/news/scotland/1439470-news-stand-welcome-to-planet-boris-hanging-by-a-thread/


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## Beezerk (Jul 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cop out from what ?!

You posted your normal snide derogatory post towards someone who shares an opinion you donâ€™t agree with. Itâ€™s your normal mode of operation.
		
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Oh my lord ðŸ¤¦


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

So Boris is PM, finally his life's ambition. However he certainly didn't want it in this way. 

Boris has made some bold claims to secure the premiership - ultimately the boldest of guaranteeing EU exit by 31st October and being so utterly confident about renegotiating the withdrawal agreement - that he was able to secure the backing of so many gullible MPs, as well as party members. With the 'we'll leave with No deal' being sufficiently brexity enough to win over the ERG and most of the party members. 

Ultimately the withdrawal agreement is not going to change and more importantly parliament is not going to allow a NO deal brexit to proceed. So by the end of October, his authority will be in tatters as likely parliament will legislate to appeal to the EU for an extension. Probably after Boris has asked them to vote on the Withdrawal Agreement for a 4th time. 

A general election is still a possibility but it would mean a number of Tories voting down their own government - which realistically means they will not be able to stand for re-election as a Conservative. Possibly there are a handful of Tories who would do that - but I think this is extremely unlikely that they would hand such an opportunity to Labour and the Lib Dems to win.

I personally feel a General Election is not a solution. What we will get during a campaign is more of the same - people promising things that rely on EU support and so won't be able to be delivered. And then people extrapolating from the results that people voted for x, y or z. Also very unlikely we will end up with an even more fractured parliament with no majority for a PM, never mind a brexit solution. 

The solution is another referendum with single transferable vote and putting 3 real solutions onto the ballot - Leave with WA, leave with No Deal and remain. This means people could rank their preferences in order with the least popular option being eliminated and the 2nd preferences finding a majority for something, which parliament would then be obliged to support. And it would throw proper light on the fact that Brexiteers want all manner of different things, many of which amount to having their cake and eating it.


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## Beezerk (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Ultimately the withdrawal agreement is not going to change and more importantly parliament is not going to allow a NO deal brexit to proceed.
		
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Let's get one thing correct first, some parties will vote against a deal irrespective of what the deal contains.
Boris could potentially come back with an amazing deal (he wont but for arguments sake let's say he does). Certain parties will vote it down purely with a view to gain power.


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## Crazyface (Jul 24, 2019)

Who has chosen Boris? THE PEOPLE
Who has chosen Corbin? THE PEOPLE

If things go as badly for the Cons under Boris as Labour seems to be going under Corbin, then maybe THE PEOPLE will never get a say again.


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## Crazyface (Jul 24, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Let's get one thing correct first, some parties will vote against a deal irrespective of what the deal contains.
Boris could potentially come back with an amazing deal (he wont but for arguments sake let's say he does). Certain parties will vote it down purely with a view to gain power.
		
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The ONLY way BJ will get Brexit through will be to shut down parliament.


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## Beezerk (Jul 24, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			The ONLY way BJ will get Brexit through will be to shut down parliament.
		
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Yep, is that even possible? I read last week there is an impending court case to try and stop this happening.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			The ONLY way BJ will get Brexit through will be to shut down parliament.
		
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How about filibustering the debate till the 31st October? If he then doesnâ€™t ask for a further extension, even if Macron would agree with one, itâ€™s out by default.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2019)

Remember when he used to guest-host Have I Got News For You? I actually quite liked him then, when he was just a harmless bumbling clown. I doubt many people ever dreamed back then he'd one day become PM. I don't like him quite so much now he's a potentially very harmful bumbling clown.


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## User62651 (Jul 24, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Remember when he used to guest-host Have I Got News For You? I actually quite liked him then, when he was just a harmless bumbling clown. I doubt many people ever dreamed back then he'd one day become PM. I don't like him quite so much now he's a potentially very harmful bumbling clown. 

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He shouldn't be able to be too harmful given the numbers in The Commons and with numerous of his own MPs dubious about him. He showed Cameron and May no loyalty so should expect little for himself. 
Parliamentary democracy may be frustrating at times but at least it's a safeguard from any BJ nonsense along with House of Lords and The Monarch.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			He shouldn't be able to be too harmful given the numbers in The Commons and with numerous of his own MPs dubious about him. He showed Cameron and May no loyalty so should expect little for himself.
Parliamentary democracy may be frustrating at times but at least it's a safeguard from any BJ nonsense along with House of Lords and The Monarch.
		
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He has detractors amongst the Tory MP's but don't forget, they overwhelmingly voted him number 1 before the 160,000 party members were given their vote.

As for not having a Commons majority, I agree he can't do too much damage but what happens if by magic he brings back a decent deal? Labour have said they will not vote for any Tory deal. Who's doing the damage then?


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## Kellfire (Jul 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If we leave Brexit we remain.
		
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A bad mistake on my part but my point remains that youâ€™re happy to accept anything that Borisâ€™ government do that is negative for our country as long as Brexit happens on Halloween.


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## User62651 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He has detractors amongst the Tory MP's but don't forget, they overwhelmingly voted him number 1 before the 160,000 party members were given their vote.

As for not having a Commons majority, I agree he can't do too much damage but what happens if by magic he brings back a decent deal? Labour have said they will not vote for any Tory deal. Who's doing the damage then?
		
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The official Labour position is not necessarily how many Labour MPs will vote, they'll likely rebel if Boris did wangle something acceptable. Most can't be bothered with their leadership either and would dump Corbyn in a heartbeat.
Still think it'll be Baker/ReesMogg and their ERG lot that'll scupper any decent deal.
Boris backing May's WA vote the 3rd time after voting against twice has many ERG looking at Boris uneasily, maybe they've realized what we all knew that he's not really one of them?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			The solution is another referendum with single transferable vote and putting 3 real solutions onto the ballot - Leave with WA, leave with No Deal and remain. This means people could rank their preferences in order with the least popular option being eliminated and the 2nd preferences finding a majority for something, which parliament would then be obliged to support. And it would throw proper light on the fact that Brexiteers want all manner of different things, many of which amount to having their cake and eating it.
		
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That just seems a desperate attempt to overturn the result of the first referendum. It splits the leave vote meaning that remain definitely wouldn't get the lowest vote. And when you have people like the new Lib Dem leader saying she would only accept the result of a 2nd referendum if the result was remain what's the point of holding one?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cop out from what ?!

You posted your normal snide derogatory post towards someone who shares an opinion you donâ€™t agree with. Itâ€™s your normal mode of operation.
		
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If you dont know the answer to that then you really are a silly boy ðŸ‘¦


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## Mudball (Jul 24, 2019)

I would like to see ResMogg get into the cabinet and deliver Brexit..   but will his nannys and au pairs have to go back?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			A bad mistake on my part but my point remains that youâ€™re happy to accept anything that Borisâ€™ government do that is negative for our country as long as Brexit happens on Halloween.
		
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No im not happy to accept anything, you made that up.

Anything they do that resulted in Brexit would be negative with people like. you, so you are the one being intransigent.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I would like to see ResMogg get into the cabinet and deliver Brexit..   but will his nannys and au pairs have to go back?
		
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No.


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## Piece (Jul 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That just seems a desperate attempt to overturn the result of the first referendum. It splits the leave vote meaning that remain definitely wouldn't get the lowest vote. And when you have people like the new Lib Dem leader saying she would only accept the result of a 2nd referendum if the result was remain what's the point of holding one?
		
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Yup. Even now, after all the debate, there is still violent disagreement about all the options on the table. Ask one person what leaving with no deal means, and theyâ€™ll tell you the polar opposite of another. Same with the other options. In my opinion we are no clearer at all about any option, so any referendum would be even more argumentative, divisive and ultimately a waste of time. The truth is that no one really knows the facts to make a constructive argument for any option, as this is unknown territory.

The only thing clear is that we are now a seemingly permanently divided nation. I donâ€™t know how we recover.


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## ger147 (Jul 24, 2019)

So who is going to be Chancellor under Boris? Will also be interesting to see if Hunt remains in the Foreign Office and who gets Home Secretary and Chief Whip.


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## Crazyface (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			So Boris is PM, finally his life's ambition. However he certainly didn't want it in this way.

Boris has made some bold claims to secure the premiership - ultimately the boldest of guaranteeing EU exit by 31st October and being so utterly confident about renegotiating the withdrawal agreement - that he was able to secure the backing of so many gullible MPs, as well as party members. With the 'we'll leave with No deal' being sufficiently brexity enough to win over the ERG and most of the party members.

Ultimately the withdrawal agreement is not going to change and more importantly parliament is not going to allow a NO deal brexit to proceed. So by the end of October, his authority will be in tatters as likely parliament will legislate to appeal to the EU for an extension. Probably after Boris has asked them to vote on the Withdrawal Agreement for a 4th time.

A general election is still a possibility but it would mean a number of Tories voting down their own government - which realistically means they will not be able to stand for re-election as a Conservative. Possibly there are a handful of Tories who would do that - but I think this is extremely unlikely that they would hand such an opportunity to Labour and the Lib Dems to win.

I personally feel a General Election is not a solution. What we will get during a campaign is more of the same - people promising things that rely on EU support and so won't be able to be delivered. And then people extrapolating from the results that people voted for x, y or z. Also very unlikely we will end up with an even more fractured parliament with no majority for a PM, never mind a brexit solution.

The solution is another referendum with single transferable vote and putting 3 real solutions onto the ballot - *Leave with WA, leave with No Deal and remain*. This means people could rank their preferences in order with the least popular option being eliminated and the 2nd preferences finding a majority for something, which parliament would then be obliged to support. And it would throw proper light on the fact that Brexiteers want all manner of different things, many of which amount to having their cake and eating it.
		
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Sorry buddy, you've split the leave vote.  Have another think of what could be on the ballot paper. No hang on. I'll tell you. 

Leave with a deal and tell everyone what the deal is.

Leave without a deal.

And we'd vote to leave without a deal.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I would assume that you have direct knowledge of working with BJ that enabled you to make these statements and personal digs.

I have undertaken a few projects that involved BJ and would disagree with your assessment. You might reflect on the good reports from numerousFMs of other nations.

Let's hope we have a few ratonal people around.
		
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I doubt Nazanin Ratcliffe or any members of her family would offer a good report of his ability/character...


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 24, 2019)

howbow88 said:



			I'm curious. How far do you go with that?

Would a Love Island contestant do? Someone who thinks the earth is flat? Mussolini? Hitler?

Surely, there are other things politically you care about other than leaving the EU by the end of October?
		
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I was speaking metaphorically so I'm sorry if that was a little advanced for you.   I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.

The only person who is likely to make this happen now is Boris Johnson as Prime Minister so I am very happy he got elected to the position.  Then you consider the alternatives

Labour - Corbyn will do anything he can and vote anyway he chooses that deliberately causes trouble for the Conservative party in the hope of forcing an election.
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best.  Yep that's being a democrat.


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			...I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.
...
		
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Well, maybe like my MP and those in the LibDems, they believe they know best and that, because it is such an important matter, they must make a stamd - which is their democratic right, or even obligation!



Pathetic Shark said:



			...
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best.  Yep that's being a democrat.
		
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And, if Swinson gets a mandate to do so, that's her democratic obligation! Being (staying) in Europe has been LibDem policy for eons! Though it's quite possible that their position prevented an earlier Referendum (during the Coalition with Tories), giving 'Leave' a better opportunity to organise and 'propoganda-ise', a large factor in the result imo!


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## drdel (Jul 24, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I doubt Nazanin Ratcliffe or any members of her family would offer a good report of his ability/character...
		
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A female journalist/researcher decides to take her young child and rattle the cage of 'free speech in a repressive, sexist, politically unstable region and expects the two governments that are already involved in very tense and strained relations to suddenly forgive the folly. Good luck with that !


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## GaryK (Jul 24, 2019)

So the UK is starting with BJ.....next thing the UK is f***ed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

And so many papers have a full front page picture of Boris doing a 'wee boy' salute as he stands on the steps of Number 10.  Brilliant.  And being spreadsheet the Daily Telegraph's picture is bigger than most and the small things are easy to spot. 

Did nobody tell Johnson to brush his shoes before he left home?  It is perhaps only a detail - but honest to God - his shoes look old, and they are scuffed and dirty.  My mum wouldn't let me go to church with shoes in that state - maybe not even to school.  What a great impression - but perhaps simply indicative of a 'could not care less or be bothered' attitude towards the detail...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_Well, I look at you this morning and I ask myself: do you look daunted? Do you feel daunted? I don't think you look remotely daunted to me. _

This is like a classic three-parter - building to a crescendo.  *I have a wee feeling that there was maybe supposed to be a pause after the first daunted - to allow the adoring acolytes to respond with a resounding NO!  And likewise after the second daunted - another resounding NO!  With thunderous roar of approval as he rounded the triplet off.*

Or maybe he thought that that might be a bit too Trumpian.

I'm utterly horrified but perversely very delighted that he has got the job.  Short may he reign.
		
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Reading reports on his speech it seems that I was not the only one to spot this - and the apparent lack of enthusiasm in the audience to respond in the manner he had hoped for.


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry buddy, you've split the leave vote.  Have another think of what could be on the ballot paper. No hang on. I'll tell you.

Leave with a deal and tell everyone what the deal is.

Leave without a deal.

And we'd vote to leave without a deal.
		
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Single transferable vote would not split the leave the vote. That's the whole point of having that format and allowing a multi-option referendum. 

It would allow the No Dealers to express that as their 1st preference and then to vote a deal as their 2nd preference (and vice versa) - ultimately if there was more than 50% with a preference to leave by either of these means, Leave would win and we would have a proper mandate for what the country wanted. If there was no longer a preference to leave, then remain would win. 

In your scenario I can tell you categorically that Leaving without a deal would not win. Not even close. Basically every remainer would vote for the deal - so you would need basically 99.5% of those who voted Leave in 2016 (the ones that haven't died or moved to spain) to vote No deal to have even a chance of that winning. 

Also the real problem with your scenario is that it wouldn't settle the issue. You need to have a proper well informed referendum where no one can dispute the result. Ultimately the 2016 referendum was very close and the winning side had not published a plan therefore Brexit was all things to all men. 4 years on and we still don't really know what kind of Brexit the country would like - certainly not one that is achievable without having a border on Ireland, or in the Irish sea or being so closely aligned to the EU that it is hardly worth leaving. Or having a No Deal that would provide an economic slump similar to that of the credit crunch, except it would only affect the UK. 

Additionally we have now had serious fines handed out to the Vote Leave campaign and clearly grey or entirely black areas with regards to how their funding was raised and indeed spent during the campaign. 

Ideally we need another decision to be taken, with a much clearer plan (on both sides) about what each outcome means. And an emphatic mandate, one way or the other, to support something. Or else this issue will continue to dominate politics for another decade.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

Piece said:



			Yup. Even now, after all the debate, there is still violent disagreement about all the options on the table. Ask one person what leaving with no deal means, and theyâ€™ll tell you the polar opposite of another. Same with the other options. In my opinion we are no clearer at all about any option, so any referendum would be even more argumentative, divisive and ultimately a waste of time. The truth is that no one really knows the facts to make a constructive argument for any option, as this is unknown territory.

*The only thing clear is that we are now a seemingly permanently divided nation. I donâ€™t know how we recover.*

Click to expand...

I think that many Remain votes might have gone along with May's WA (I think I might well have done so) - and that would have certainly done some healing of the open wound that will only fester for as long as...

But leaving with _No Deal_ is just so far from remaining - the opposite end of the spectrum in fact - that such an outcome simply hardens attitudes against it.

And in the background, and sometimes in the foreground, we have Farage & Co. and the ERG ready to paint *any *deal that BJ might somehow magically conjure up with the EU through believing and energy as a sell-out - a compromise too far.  And as the promises to the electorate about leaving that were made and are not fulfilled - the anger will continue - and the gaping chasm rent through UK society will not heal for a long time.


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## stefanovic (Jul 24, 2019)

Bozo the clown, the fat controller - on His way to being King of the World, no doubt.
God had better watch out, too.


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That just seems a desperate attempt to overturn the result of the first referendum. It splits the leave vote meaning that remain definitely wouldn't get the lowest vote. And when you have people like the new Lib Dem leader saying she would only accept the result of a 2nd referendum if the result was remain what's the point of holding one?
		
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Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote. 

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse. 

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016. 

Ultimately there is no majority for anything - although I suspect there may be a clear majority for remain if another referendum was to take place. I'm a remainder, but I would only want to win a 2nd referendum on the basis that the Leave side had a clear opportunity to put their workable and deliverable solution to the people - so that there was no interpretation that the people voted to: 
* take control of our borders
* stay in a customs union
* a Norway style arrangement
* stay in Schengen
* Leave Schengen
* abolish freedom of movement
* leave NI as part of the EU
* leave with No deal
* leave with a deal
* give Â£350M a week to the NHS
etc etc etc. 

The leave ideology remain a shambles with no creditable proposal that the EU will agree to and insufficient support for No Deal.


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Let's get one thing correct first, some parties will vote against a deal irrespective of what the deal contains.
Boris could potentially come back with an amazing deal (he wont but for arguments sake let's say he does). Certain parties will vote it down purely with a view to gain power.
		
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Yes - they will. But it's not up to the opposition to vote through the Prime Ministers agreement if she can't even get her own party on board.


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## Mudball (Jul 24, 2019)

BoJo in No 10
Eng bowled out for 85
Record temperature today 
What a day... 

The Irish backstop is already making life difficult


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote. 

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse. 

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016.
		
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Of course it splits the leave vote. There are reasonable leave voters that wouldn't vote for a no deal exit. And there are extreme leave voters who want a no deal exit and wouldn't vote for a deal. Why should leaving with the agreed WA even be an option? It's been rejected by MPs three times already.

And despite your claim, the biggest problem with the 1st vote was that a majority in parliament didn't like or want to enact the result because it was the wrong answer.

We've already voted to leave so why is remain an option? Just because the government have failed so badly and screwed up the negotiations doesn't mean we should ignore the result and have another go to get the right answer. If we accept that then any future government can simply ignore the result of any vote they don't like and simply say "well we tried but it's too difficult so we're not going to do it".


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## MegaSteve (Jul 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			A female journalist/researcher decides to take her young child and rattle the cage of 'free speech in a repressive, sexist, politically unstable region and expects the two governments that are already involved in very tense and strained relations to suddenly forgive the folly. Good luck with that !
		
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As I am sure you are fully aware... Should a UK citizen get into 'bother' (for whatever reason), whilst abroad, it is part 'n parcel of the Foreign Offices remit to seek to extricate them... Despite all the advice of the highly experienced people at the FO Boris, as FS, made a complete horlicks of seeking to resolve the 'situation'... Instead of quelling the fire he managed to stoke the flames to beyond retrieval... To the point you'd be thinking that dumping her in as much mire as possible was his mission....

Absolutely the last person I'd want in my corner...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote.

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse.

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016.

Ultimately there is no majority for anything - although I suspect there may be a clear majority for remain if another referendum was to take place. I'm a remainder, but I would only want to win a 2nd referendum on the basis that the Leave side had a clear opportunity to put their workable and deliverable solution to the people - so that there was no interpretation that the people voted to:
* take control of our borders
* stay in a customs union
* a Norway style arrangement
* stay in Schengen
* Leave Schengen
* abolish freedom of movement
* leave NI as part of the EU
* leave with No deal
* leave with a deal
* give Â£350M a week to the NHS
etc etc etc.

The leave ideology remain a shambles with no creditable proposal that the EU will agree to and insufficient support for No Deal.
		
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I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it.  

However, I would actually set a high bar for _Remain _to get over for _Remain _to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'.  I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate?  I don't know.  But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.


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## howbow88 (Jul 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I was speaking metaphorically so I'm sorry if that was a little advanced for you.   I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.

The only person who is likely to make this happen now is Boris Johnson as Prime Minister so I am very happy he got elected to the position.  Then you consider the alternatives

Labour - Corbyn will do anything he can and vote anyway he chooses that deliberately causes trouble for the Conservative party in the hope of forcing an election.
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best.  Yep that's being a democrat.
		
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I think it's a bit of a jump to say that your post was 'advanced' (little or otherwise), when you mention Kermit the frog. 

So what your post actually was, was just internet ramblings of someone who wants the UK out of the EU. Fair enough


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course it splits the leave vote. There are reasonable leave voters that wouldn't vote for a no deal exit. And there are extreme leave voters who want a no deal exit and wouldn't vote for a deal. Why should leaving with the agreed WA even be an option? It's been rejected by MPs three times already.

And despite your claim, the biggest problem with the 1st vote was that a majority in parliament didn't like or want to enact the result because it was the wrong answer.

We've already voted to leave so why is remain an option? Just because the government have failed so badly and screwed up the negotiations doesn't mean we should ignore the result and have another go to get the right answer. If we accept that then any future government can simply ignore the result of any vote they don't like and simply say "well we tried but it's too difficult so we're not going to do it".
		
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Since the 1st vote, we've since had a general election and there is a sizeable majority of MPs who have said they want to deliver Brexit. There just isn't workable solution that close to a majority can agree on. 

If there is another referendum and remain isn't on the ballot paper, then the process has disenfranchised at least 48% but in reality over 50%. Remember over 300,000 EU citizens weren't able to vote in the referendum but can vote in parliamentary elections. 

In this scenario the EU issue will continue to dominate UK politics and likely that the remain vote will coalesce on this issue to the extent that they dominate future parliamentary elections and whatever Brexit solution a Deal / No Deal referendum delivered will not be a secure one. 

So what is your solution that is secure and deliverable?


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## Mudball (Jul 24, 2019)

Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum...   Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum...  Are you sure that you win?


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it. 

However, I would actually set a high bar for _Remain _to get over for _Remain _to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'.  I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate?  I don't know.  But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.
		
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I think any referendum has to be on a simple majority.

Problem with setting bars like that is winning a simple majority but not getting over the other hurdle leaves you with a situation where over half have voted for something, that doesn't get enacted. 

Again, were this the case - the remain side would definitely keep going at this as they would feel suitability justified that there wasn't a majority to leave. 

Look at the Muirfield golf club vote. Well over half voted to allow woman members, but not on the 2/3rds threshold. As a result, it was only a few months before the issue was brought back.


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum...   Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum...  Are you sure that you win?
		
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I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big. 

But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.


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## Wolf (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

*But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.*

Click to expand...

I disagree the vote was made and the decision was leave. Government can't go back on that because it would set a precedent for future votes that if they don't get the answer they want, they can arse around for a few montha/years then try again to get the vote they want. 

For the record I voted to remain, however the majority won therefore we have to accept that and move forward and leave the EU whether we want it or not.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.
		
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The impasse was not made by the voting public but those that believe they know better.   Everyone MUST know in their heart of hearts that leaving is the right and honorable thing to do and anything else is just wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think any referendum has to be on a simple majority.

Problem with setting bars like that is winning a simple majority but not getting over the other hurdle leaves you with a situation where over half have voted for something, that doesn't get enacted.

Again, were this the case - the remain side would definitely keep going at this as they would feel suitability justified that there wasn't a majority to leave.

Look at the Muirfield golf club vote. Well over half voted to allow woman members, but not on the 2/3rds threshold. As a result, it was only a few months before the issue was brought back.
		
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As much as I might agree with that sentiment - such is the situation that the country is in that any further referendum result that indicates a preference to Remain must be of sufficient a margin - and of sufficient coverage - to make it very evident and virtually incontestable that the preference is to Remain.  Otherwise there is not a chance in hell of there being any real reconciliation.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As much as I might agree with that sentiment - such is the situation that the country is in that any further referendum result that indicates a preference to Remain must be of sufficient a margin - and of sufficient coverage - to make it very evident and virtually incontestable that the preference is to Remain.  Otherwise there is not a chance in hell of there being any real reconciliation.
		
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Nothing but leave will reconcile.   The vote was cast and the result was clear, how on earth can this vote be ignored and replaced with another.   Just think about it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Since the 1st vote, we've since had a general election and there is a sizeable majority of MPs who have said they want to deliver Brexit. There just isn't workable solution that close to a majority can agree on. 

If there is another referendum and remain isn't on the ballot paper, then the process has disenfranchised at least 48% but in reality over 50%. Remember over 300,000 EU citizens weren't able to vote in the referendum but can vote in parliamentary elections. 

In this scenario the EU issue will continue to dominate UK politics and likely that the remain vote will coalesce on this issue to the extent that they dominate future parliamentary elections and whatever Brexit solution a Deal / No Deal referendum delivered will not be a secure one. 

So what is your solution that is secure and deliverable?
		
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Do you believe all the MPs that say they want to deliver Brexit? Like the Labour MPs who stood in the last election with a manifesto pledge of delivering Brexit but now want a 2nd referendum and will campaign to remain. To me that doesn't sound much like wanting to deliver Brexit.

You come across as yet another remainer that thinks that their views are more important than those of leave voters. If there is another referendum and remain wins then you disenfranchise the 52 percent that originally voted leave. But I suspect you don't care as long as you get the result you want. If remain were to win the 2nd referendum would you then support a 3rd referendum as each side would have won one each? Or would that be the end of it as we got the right result?

Our negotiators were poor and weak from the beginning, and I suspect that came from May. As soon as the EU said that we couldn't discuss a future relationship until the WA was agreed we should have walked away. If a future relationship had been agreed then there would have been no need for the Irish backstop and the WA would probably have been voted through.

Fortunately I don't have to have a solution, but with where we find ourselves now to me the only option is to tell the EU that unless they are willing to renegotiate then we will be leaving on 31st October and going on to WTO rules. We would then see if the EU were willing to throw the Irish economy under a bus or not.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it. 

However, I would actually set a high bar for _Remain _to get over for _Remain _to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'.  I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate?  I don't know.  But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.
		
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Wow! That's really loading the dice in favour of Remain. How about saying that Remain needs to score a minimum of 60%? Bet you won't like that. A simple majority is the only fair way to decide.


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## ger147 (Jul 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.
		
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So was David Cameron...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 24, 2019)

Pretty sure if Corbyn made some of the promises Bojo made today Tory voters would be doing their nut, saying he'll bankrupt the country. But as its Bojo and he's a bit of a card......


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## ger147 (Jul 24, 2019)

Boris making Hitler's Night of the Long Knives look like a teddy bear's picnic.

Almost the entire front bench getting the bullet...


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## drdel (Jul 24, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Boris making Hitler's Night of the Long Knives look like a teddy bear's picnic.

Almost the entire front bench getting the bullet...
		
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I'd expect any new 'leader' to do the same. He's right if they didn't stand with him they were, by inference, obviously against him. His task is difficult enough without having to wonder about the loyalty of his sidekicks in cabinet.

I saw the BBC's selected talking heads saying there was no detail in his speech, after seeing the Queen - honestly what on earth would anyone put in an intro-briefing. Such a quick speech outside 10 DS ain't the time for anything other than setting out the strategic path/goals.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 24, 2019)

Raab and Patel in some of the key positions. God help us, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.  And to think tories get all upset about Dianne Abbot and her dodgy maths, at least she can't do any damage.


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## fundy (Jul 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum...   Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum...  Are you sure that you win?
		
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the obvious answer is

we won, we dont need one

we lost, we need one


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And to think tories get all upset about Dianne Abbot and her dodgy maths, at least she can't do any damage.
		
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Surely that depends on how badly Boris and Co. balls it up. They'd have to get it horribly wrong for Corbyn to look electable and give Abbott the chance to do any damage. But if it gets that bad then maybe Abbott in a position of power would be an improvement.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely that depends on how badly Boris and Co. balls it up. They'd have to get it horribly wrong for Corbyn to look electable and give Abbott the chance to do any damage. But if it gets that bad then maybe Abbott in a position of power would be an improvement.
		
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He's in trouble before he starts... As there are no good ideas from his predecessor he can implement and take the credit for...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 24, 2019)

Thread.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154093304327356416


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## jp5 (Jul 24, 2019)

Pleased to see the Leave campaign team essentially become Boris' cabinet.

It'll either work out or it won't. At least within 100 days this'll all be resolved and we can move on!


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## spongebob59 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hopefully


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Thread.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154093304327356416

Click to expand...

Yes, so what!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Raab and Patel in some of the key positions. God help us, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.  And to think tories get all upset about Dianne Abbot and her dodgy maths, at least she can't do any damage.
		
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OMG he has just appointed a Scottish secretary who wants to abolish the Scottish Parliament.  [and does not seem to like paying taxes]
This is brilliant, Esther McVey next up followed by Jim Davidson as equities secretary.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! That's really loading the dice in favour of Remain. How about saying that Remain needs to score a minimum of 60%? Bet you won't like that. A simple majority is the only fair way to decide.
		
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OK - I said I didn't know - so 60% of the total electorate and a 15% margin.  My point was simply that for the decision to be changed and for us to Remain would require an almost incontestable result that indicates that preference.  There would be no point of Remain winning by a straight majority on a turnout of - let's say - less than 75% - so in fact I am recognising that it would have to be loaded *against* Remain.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OMG he has just appointed a Scottish secretary who wants to abolish the Scottish Parliament.  [and does not seem to like paying taxes]
This is brilliant, Esther McVey next up followed by Jim Davidson as equities secretary.
		
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Even the most die hard Tory must be concerned that McVey has been given a top job after failing miserably in her previous job.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Even the most die hard Tory must be concerned that McVey has been given a top job after failing miserably in her previous job.
		
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At least he got rid of Grayling as Transport Minister which shows Boris's judgement isn't that bad.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 24, 2019)

I see Gavin I can't keep a secret Williamson got a seat at the table...


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## Dando (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I said I didn't know - so 60% of the total electorate and a 15% margin.  My point was simply that for the decision to be changed and for us to Remain would require an almost incontestable result that indicates that preference.  There would be no point of Remain winning by a straight majority on a turnout of - let's say - less than 75% - so in fact I am recognising that it would have to be loaded *against* Remain.
		
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If remain won, that makes it 1-1 so do we then go to a third vote or will you insist that result over rides the first as thatâ€™s what you want?


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## Grant85 (Jul 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you believe all the MPs that say they want to deliver Brexit? Like the Labour MPs who stood in the last election with a manifesto pledge of delivering Brexit but now want a 2nd referendum and will campaign to remain. To me that doesn't sound much like wanting to deliver Brexit.

You come across as yet another remainer that thinks that their views are more important than those of leave voters. If there is another referendum and remain wins then you disenfranchise the 52 percent that originally voted leave. But I suspect you don't care as long as you get the result you want. If remain were to win the 2nd referendum would you then support a 3rd referendum as each side would have won one each? Or would that be the end of it as we got the right result?

Our negotiators were poor and weak from the beginning, and I suspect that came from May. As soon as the EU said that we couldn't discuss a future relationship until the WA was agreed we should have walked away. If a future relationship had been agreed then there would have been no need for the Irish backstop and the WA would probably have been voted through.

Fortunately I don't have to have a solution, but with where we find ourselves now to me the only option is to tell the EU that unless they are willing to renegotiate then we will be leaving on 31st October and going on to WTO rules. We would then see if the EU were willing to throw the Irish economy under a bus or not.
		
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So you don't have a solution? And this is your baby! There in lies the problem. 

Unfortunately this is your mess. You voted for this on the basis of a bit of national pride and a few slogans, i.e. without a sketch of a plan. The things that have happened, Cameron resigning, May becoming PM, invoking A50, making a stupid decision for another election, losing her power and authority, doing a deal that she couldn't get through the Commons and ultimately having 3 years of complete stagnation - they are all a result of people voting for something without all the information. 

Now there is no workable solution, you are content to crash the economy. 

I'm not saying we should have another referendum simply because I didn't like the result of the 1st, but in reality it is the only way to break the impasse. I was also fairly late to this way of thinking as it became clearer that there is no workable solution in London. And the problem with another election is that people like Boris and probably Corbyn, would spend 4 weeks spinning us all 

The 2nd referendum would have a much better advantage over the 1st - that the leavers would have a realistic and deliverable plan of what Brexit looks like. My feeling is that the reality of that would not be as palatable to as many when it was a bit of a blank cheque. 

I'm not denying that many, clearly yourself included, would still vote to leave and for you it's clearly more ideological rather than practical. But given the narrow victory in 2016, it is fairly conceivable that by the time you throw a bit of detail in to what Leave actually looks like, that narrow majority crumbles.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I see Gavin I can't keep a secret Williamson got a seat at the table...
		
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If Priti Patel can be Home Sec after the reasoning behind her departure then anyone can be up for a job.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OMG he has just appointed a *Scottish secretary who wants to abolish the Scottish Parliament*.  [and does not seem to like paying taxes]
This is brilliant, Esther McVey next up followed by Jim Davidson as equities secretary.
		
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And this is a bad thing because????? Do you see the English constantly moaning because they don't have a Parliament of their own? Or even that other countries have a say in whatever they want to do? Well, yes, I moan about this and this is maybe another reason that the English want to get away from others interfering with their decision making.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

It's about time the whole lot (Uk) was split up. Then the other countries can shut the heck up and go and join up with Europe and we can stay separate and make our own laws and decisions.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 25, 2019)

*The things that have happened, Cameron resigning, May becoming PM, invoking A50, making a stupid decision for another election, losing her power and authority, doing a deal that she couldn't get through the Commons and ultimately having 3 years of complete stagnation - they are all a result of people voting for something without all the information.*

These are all down to the politicians who are either incompetent or not willing to implement the mandate they were given. Nothing to do with the information they were given.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And this is a bad thing because????? Do you see the English constantly moaning because they don't have a Parliament of their own? Or even that other countries have a say in whatever they want to do? Well, yes, I moan about this and this is maybe another reason that the English want to get away from others interfering with their decision making.
		
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'The English have their own Parliament it is called Westminster'.
..and before you jump your high horse those are the words of the new Prime Minister not me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			It's about time the whole lot (Uk) was split up. Then the other countries can shut the heck up and go and join up with Europe and we can stay separate and make our own laws and decisions.
		
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There is that royal WE again.
Or perhaps your 'other countries' include England.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Well what a front line Cabinet.  BJ could hardly have gathered together a group of individuals almost guaranteed to make the divisions in the country worse - certainly little in the way of compromising with that crew.  Frankly rather mind-boggling.  But if you are a committed Leaver then you will be delighted - because it seems that absolutely nothing else matters - no matter what - do or die, and no matter what damage to the country might result, we leave the EU on 31/10.  And we will because JR-M says we will - and as he also said - there is no Plan B.

Meanwhile the hand of Dom Cumm there for all to see - playing the part of Steve Bannon to BJs Trump - scheming and planning to lay the blame for _No Deal_ departure at the door of everyone but those responsible for us Leaving and have actually driven the negotiations with the EU to where a ND is now almost inevitable.  And building that whole narrative into HIS preparing BJ for the General Election coming our way pretty soon I think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			If remain won, that makes it 1-1 so do we then go to a third vote or will you insist that result over rides the first as thatâ€™s what you want?
		
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That is why it would be essential for the outcome of any such referendum to be heavily weighted *against* remain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			It's about time the whole lot (Uk) was split up. Then the other countries can shut the heck up and go and join up with Europe and we can stay separate and make our own laws and decisions.
		
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_English Votes for English Laws _- or have you forgotten about that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_votes_for_English_laws 

That being one reason why in practice there can never be a future UK Prime Minister being an MP for a Scottish seat. So that's what meant by having Westminster government governing for all of the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The things that have happened, Cameron resigning, May becoming PM, invoking A50, making a stupid decision for another election, losing her power and authority, doing a deal that she couldn't get through the Commons and ultimately having 3 years of complete stagnation - they are all a result of people voting for something without all the information.
*
These are all down to the politicians who are either incompetent or not willing to implement the mandate they were given. Nothing to do with the information they were given.*

Click to expand...

Yeh right....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

I thought May was scraping the bottom of the talent barrel with her final cabinet but Johnson is now frantically searching in the filth under the barrel.


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## patricks148 (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought May was scraping the bottom of the talent barrel with her final cabinet but Johnson is now frantically searching in the filth under the barrel.
		
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there was a good iticle in the Guardian online that described them pretty well, i would,nt be allowed to repeat it on here though as an infraction would follow


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			there was a good iticle in the Guardian online that described them pretty well, i would be allowed to repeat it on here though as an infraction would follow

Click to expand...

No link so I might suggest one...it only hurts when I laugh - and when I laugh at what is written about I realise that what I am laughing about is actually not funny - it is miserably depressing

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-by-blaming-half-the-country-for-our-problems


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'The English have their own Parliament it is called Westminster'.
..and before you jump your high horse those are the words of the new Prime Minister not me.

Click to expand...

Just how the heck can this be an ENGLISH parliament when the Scots , Welsh and Irish sit in it??????


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No link so I might suggest one...it only hurts when I laugh - and when I laugh at what is written about I realise that what I am laughing about is actually not funny - it is miserably depressing

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-by-blaming-half-the-country-for-our-problems

Click to expand...

That Link is sooooooooooooooooooo on the money.
The description of the new cabinet is brilliant, but as you say totally depressing.
 BTW My non swearing Mrs is still walking around shaking her head and saying 'Boris '#'#'#' Johnson' every few hours.


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## patricks148 (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No link so I might suggest one...it only hurts when I laugh - and when I laugh at what is written about I realise that what I am laughing about is actually not funny - it is miserably depressing

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-by-blaming-half-the-country-for-our-problems

Click to expand...

thats the one


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			So you don't have a solution? And this is your baby! There in lies the problem. 

Unfortunately this is your mess. You voted for this on the basis of a bit of national pride and a few slogans, i.e. without a sketch of a plan. The things that have happened, Cameron resigning, May becoming PM, invoking A50, making a stupid decision for another election, losing her power and authority, doing a deal that she couldn't get through the Commons and ultimately having 3 years of complete stagnation - they are all a result of people voting for something without all the information. 

Now there is no workable solution, you are content to crash the economy. 

I'm not saying we should have another referendum simply because I didn't like the result of the 1st, but in reality it is the only way to break the impasse. I was also fairly late to this way of thinking as it became clearer that there is no workable solution in London. And the problem with another election is that people like Boris and probably Corbyn, would spend 4 weeks spinning us all 

The 2nd referendum would have a much better advantage over the 1st - that the leavers would have a realistic and deliverable plan of what Brexit looks like. My feeling is that the reality of that would not be as palatable to as many when it was a bit of a blank cheque. 

I'm not denying that many, clearly yourself included, would still vote to leave and for you it's clearly more ideological rather than practical. But given the narrow victory in 2016, it is fairly conceivable that by the time you throw a bit of detail in to what Leave actually looks like, that narrow majority crumbles.
		
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All very interesting and accurate apart from one small fact that you have got wrong. It's not my "baby" or my "mess" and I didn't vote for it. I was actually using my one of my 4 freedoms at the time of the vote and was working in Germany. I wanted us to remain and if it was possible would still like us to but unfortunately I think too many bridges have been burned for that to happen. I spend 6 months of the year working in other EU countries so being in the EU is a big plus for me personally. But I try not to be one of those arrogant remainers who likes to claim they are better, more important or more intelligent than leave voters or someone that puts forward forecasts or predictions as though they are facts. I am happy to point out when those on the leave side produce info or facts that are wrong and I will do the same to other remain voters.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

" they are all a result of people voting for something without all the information."

This get on my bluddy nerves. we had a x weeks debate on in and out. If you didn't bluddy listen to all the debates (I did ALL OF THEM. As I wanted to really believe that the EU was a good thing).  But the Leave campaign was awsome. Three key points and rammed it down our throats. Remain? Whimper whimper blustery (well you can guess the rest).

Utter plonkers the lot of them. Just look where one of the Leave campaign members is now! Proper skill. Boris will ram it down foreign leaders throats that ENGLAND and the UK (currently) will not stand for anymore of their stupidity. We will become a world leader once more instead of a follower.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Just how the heck can this be an ENGLISH parliament when the Scots , Welsh and Irish sit in it??????
		
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You should address that question to your new PM as I was quoting his words.

Mind you the Scottish Parliament has had English and French MSP's.
It will probably surprise you that you have quite a few English MP's who are not English.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No link so I might suggest one...it only hurts when I laugh - and when I laugh at what is written about I realise that what I am laughing about is actually not funny - it is miserably depressing

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-by-blaming-half-the-country-for-our-problems

Click to expand...

Boris has his faults, but just like a proper Brit this Richard Head is already attacking our leader BEFORE he has had a chance to prove himself.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should address that question to your new PM as I was quoting his words.

Mind you the Scottish Parliament has had English and French MSP's.
It will probably surprise you that you have quite a few English MP's who are not English.
		
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Maybe, and that does not bother me, as they are representing English constituants who voted for them


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe, and that does not bother me, as they are representing English constituants who voted for them
		
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...and they have _English Votes for English Laws_.


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That Link is sooooooooooooooooooo on the money.
The description of the new cabinet is brilliant, but as you say totally depressing.
BTW My non swearing Mrs is still walking around shaking her head and saying 'Boris '#'#'#' Johnson' every few hours.

Click to expand...

Again, give the man a chance before you plunge the knife in. He's smarter than you or I. Acted like a clown for most of his parliamentary life and yet there he is leading us all. Lets see how this pans out before we slag him off. Oh and the NHS, schools, police etc etc speech is the same we hear EVERY time a new leader is appointed no matter what party they belong to. Even Scotland. And I'm led to believe that things aren't going great up there. The poison dwarf is not a good as she thinks eh?


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and they have _English Votes for English Laws_.
		
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I've never heard of any English laws being passed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Boris has his faults, but just like a proper Brit this Richard Head is already attacking our leader BEFORE he has had a chance to prove himself.
		
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With his very first act as PM - in forming his cabinet and adviser team - BJ rams a great bluddy wedge into the angry and festering division splitting the country.  And I will not be surprised if, as the days and weeks go by, he will hammer that wedge more firmly into the divide - with Dom Comm standing at his side encouraging him and telling him how well he is doing.

By your acts will you be judged.


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## JPLon (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With his very first act as PM - in forming his cabinet and adviser team - BJ rams a great bluddy wedge into the angry and festering division splitting the country.  And I will not be surprised if, as the days and weeks go by, he will hammer that wedge more firmly into the divide - with Dom Comm standing at his side encouraging him and telling him how well he is doing.

By your acts will you be judged.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect this is exactly the plan. Knows he can't really change the withdrawal agreement, knows he can't get no deal through parliament. So set up a full leaver cabinet and go to a general election. Kick out all the tories that are remain and try to get all of the Brexit party support from the EU elections by running a full no deal leave ticket. I suspect it will work too


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I've never heard of any English laws being passed.
		
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EVEL is certainly not without criticism as it significantly complicates the progress of legislation through the Lords and Commons - but you do agree EVEL exists for English (& Welsh) legislative matters in Westminster.

It's complicated - but it's there

http://evel.uk/how-does-evel-work/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

JPLon said:



			I suspect this is exactly the plan. Knows he can't really change the withdrawal agreement, knows he can't get no deal through parliament. So set up a full leaver cabinet and go to a general election. Kick out all the tories that are remain and try to get all of the Brexit party support from the EU elections by running a full no deal leave ticket. I suspect it will work too
		
Click to expand...

And so we have Dominic Cummings - an unelected bureaucrat - the surrogate, if not the de facto, Prime Minister of the UK - Joys.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 25, 2019)

So nothing like Alastair Campbell with his hand up Tony Blair's backside then â€¦.?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

John P Mackintosh (Labour MP and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University) wrote in 1975.

_Now that Britain is less successful economically, is no longer a world power and has abandoned it's colonial empire, the Scottish side of dual nationality has become more prominent and with Scottish membership of Europe as part of UK membership, it is possible that in addition to the dual nationality they will develop a European conscience which may take the place of the British element in Scottish thinking.  In this sense the Scots may come to look to Brussels more than to London for those aspects of policy that are outside the control of Scotland.  For this reason, it is important that the Scots are about to obtain a separate Scottish Parliament and Executive which will deal with all those aspects of internal policy that are purely Scottish.  All that be left to London will  be overall economic policy, defence policy and foreign policy.  If these matters are increasingly dealt with from Brussels then the British aspect of the dual nationality may well be replaced by a European aspects and this will receive institutional recognition after there are direct elections of Scottish members to the European Parliament and some separate representation of Scotland in the European Commission in Brussels._

Mackintosh was a strong supporter of devolution (not independence) and was looking forward - he hoped - into the not too distant future - indeed he was hopeful that some things he wrote of would happen by late-1977 - such was the political environment of mid-1970s Scotland.

And so it is coming to pass.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			So nothing like Alastair Campbell with his hand up Tony Blair's backside then â€¦.?
		
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I suspect not very much at all like that.  And even if it is - if it was unacceptable then, then given where we are today...?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With his very first act as PM - in forming his cabinet and adviser team - BJ rams a great bluddy wedge into the angry and festering division splitting the country.  And I will not be surprised if, as the days and weeks go by, he will hammer that wedge more firmly into the divide - with Dom Comm standing at his side encouraging him and telling him how well he is doing.

By your acts will you be judged.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't this exactly what you and others have been wanting for several months? You've complained about leavers not stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. And now that it has happened you still aren't happy.


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## stefanovic (Jul 25, 2019)

Will soon need an updated edition of the book '50 people who have buggered up Britain' to include Boris and Co.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1069352/QUENTIN-LETTS-The-50-people-wrecked-Britain.html


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## MegaSteve (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Boris has his faults, but just like a proper Brit this Richard Head is already attacking our leader BEFORE he has had a chance to prove himself.
		
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Boris has had plenty of previous opportunity to 'prove himself"...
And, come up short every time...


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Great speech. Made me feel good. Fingers crossed for Boris!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 25, 2019)

Robert Peston is confident we will see a GE by September. That makes sense for Boris, his majority of 2 is nowehere near enough and he can't get through what he wants as it stands. He is also a far better campaigner than TM, frankly not tricky, and so it is probably a gamble worth taking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't this exactly what you and others have been wanting for several months? You've complained about leavers not stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. And now that it has happened you still aren't happy.
		
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Oh I am happy enough in the context of them taking responsibility - but they won't.  With BJ now telling us that there can be no backstop *whatsoever *in any deal replacing the current one - we seem to have _BeeJay and the Kamikaze Krew _directing the UK towards a _No Deal_ exit - an exit that they know will be difficult, problematic and damaging to the UK but that they will then blame on the EU; on _Remoaners_; gloomsters, doomsters and all other opponents of _No Deal.  _


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I've never heard of any English laws being passed.
		
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Oh dear.


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have Dominic Cummings - an unelected bureaucrat - the surrogate, if not the de facto, Prime Minister of the UK - Joys.
		
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Remember this is the man who admitted fooling Leave voters with two big lies. The Bus and Turkey.
'I told them what they wanted to hear and they believed it' he said of the Brexiteers.
Who, to put it kindly, were not all of an enquiring mind.

Johnson does not even know the name of the leading political party in Scotland.
 He is awful at PMQ.
What an embarrassment to the UK


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			John P Mackintosh (Labour MP and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University) wrote in 1975.

_Now that Britain is less successful economically, is no longer a world power and has abandoned it's colonial empire, the Scottish side of dual nationality has become more prominent and with Scottish membership of Europe as part of UK membership, it is possible that in addition to the dual nationality they will develop a European conscience which may take the place of the British element in Scottish thinking.  In this sense the Scots may come to look to Brussels more than to London for those aspects of policy that are outside the control of Scotland.  For this reason, it is important that the Scots are about to obtain a separate Scottish Parliament and Executive which will deal with all those aspects of internal policy that are purely Scottish.  All that be left to London will  be overall economic policy, defence policy and foreign policy.  If these matters are increasingly dealt with from Brussels then the British aspect of the dual nationality may well be replaced by a European aspects and this will receive institutional recognition after there are direct elections of Scottish members to the European Parliament and some separate representation of Scotland in the European Commission in Brussels._

Mackintosh was a strong supporter of devolution (not independence) and was looking forward - he hoped - into the not too distant future - indeed he was hopeful that some things he wrote of would happen by late-1977 - such was the political environment of mid-1970s Scotland.

And so it is coming to pass.
		
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I cast my first political vote for J P Mac.
Good guy.


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## Mudball (Jul 25, 2019)

A not a very flattering view of Boris across the pond.. while there is a high level of hyperbole in this, it is fairly damaging assessment 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154124220529381377


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## Crazyface (Jul 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Robert Peston is confident we will see a GE by September. That makes sense for Boris, his majority of 2 is nowehere near enough and he can't get through what he wants as it stands. He is also a far better campaigner than TM, frankly not tricky, and so it is probably a gamble worth taking.
		
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Hell nooooooooooooooooooo


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## MegaSteve (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW My non swearing Mrs is still walking around shaking her head and saying 'Boris '#'#'#' Johnson' every few hours.

Click to expand...

Here's hoping Mrs DfT is reserving some of her angst for Brussels new El Presidente... Another with a long trail of failure behind her and got the job from an even more miniscule percentage of the electorate than Boris...

Hey ho onwards and downwards...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I cast my first political vote for J P Mac.
Good guy.
		
Click to expand...

That from a collection of papers (ed. H Drucker) that he wrote - remarkably prescient thinking from 1975, because back then as a teenager just about to head off to Starthclyde Uni from school - I was frankly pretty ignorant of such thinking about the way things might develop for Scotland (though I was a great fan of Winnie and Margo) - and indeed how I might come to think some 25yrs into the future - and so it came to pass - and I do.

Also apparently - Wee Ruthie is spitting tacks (not tax) at the sacking of Mr Quite Ordinary Tory - Davie Mundell as Scottish Secretary to be replaced by a Tory Scottish Toff - Alister Jack (only a certain background of Scot has a first name spelled Alister).  And why?  Because, it appears, Mundell was a vocal supporter of Hunt - so that overrides the views of the leader of the Scottish Conservatives and her expression of trust and closeness to Mundell.  

Talk of a break by the Scottish Conservatives...?


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## drdel (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			John P Mackintosh (Labour MP and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University) wrote in 1975.

_Now that Britain is less successful economically, is no longer a world power and has abandoned it's colonial empire, the Scottish side of dual nationality has become more prominent and with Scottish membership of Europe as part of UK membership, it is possible that in addition to the dual nationality they will develop a European conscience which may take the place of the British element in Scottish thinking.  In this sense the Scots may come to look to Brussels more than to London for those aspects of policy that are outside the control of Scotland.  For this reason, it is important that the Scots are about to obtain a separate Scottish Parliament and Executive which will deal with all those aspects of internal policy that are purely Scottish.  All that be left to London will  be overall economic policy, defence policy and foreign policy.  If these matters are increasingly dealt with from Brussels then the British aspect of the dual nationality may well be replaced by a European aspects and this will receive institutional recognition after there are direct elections of Scottish members to the European Parliament and some separate representation of Scotland in the European Commission in Brussels._

Mackintosh was a strong supporter of devolution (not independence) and was looking forward - he hoped - into the not too distant future - indeed he was hopeful that some things he wrote of would happen by late-1977 - such was the political environment of mid-1970s Scotland.

And so it is coming to pass.
		
Click to expand...

So in his response to the new PM the leader of the SNP was worried that the Barnet formula might be up for a rethink. At the same time as telling the rest of UK to let Scotland join the EU as an independent state.

Corbyn has now fully reversed and declared he would fight a GE on a Remain ticket.

Swinson has declared to defy the collective will and law of the UK and prevent the UK enacting its own decision to leave.

So we have a Parliament full of MPs who campaigned and voted for a Referendum that they had declared they would honour. Those same MPs voted to pass article 50 and put into law that the UK would leave the EU.

However you choose to take a shot at the new PM for trying to enact the democratic process/decisions !


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That from a collection of papers (ed. H Drucker) that he wrote - remarkably prescient thinking from 1975, because back then as a teenager just about to head off to Starthclyde Uni from school - I was frankly pretty ignorant of such thinking about the way things might develop for Scotland (though I was a great fan of Winnie and Margo) - and indeed how I might come to think some 25yrs into the future - and so it came to pass - and I do.

Also apparently - Wee Ruthie is spitting tacks (not tax) at the sacking of Mr Quite Ordinary Tory - Davie Mundell as Scottish Secretary to be replaced by a Tory Scottish Toff - Alister Jack (only a certain background of Scot has a first name spelled Alister).  And why?  Because, it appears, Mundell was a vocal supporter of Hunt - so that overrides the views of the leader of the Scottish Conservatives and her expression of trust and closeness to Mundell.

Talk of a break by the Scottish Conservatives...?
		
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Viceroy Muddell was truly dreadful but it was going to be a guarantee that whoever replaced him would be worse.
Muddell increased the Scottish Office staffing by about 400%, nobody has a clue as to what work they actually do.

https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/scotland-office-propaganda-staff-budget-soars-tories/


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## drdel (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Viceroy Muddell was truly dreadful but it was going to be a guarantee that whoever replaced him would be worse.
Muddell increased the Scottish Office staffing from about 7 to about 30, nobody has a clue as to what work they actually do.

https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/scotland-office-propaganda-staff-budget-soars-tories/

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So only Scots have the intellect to run Scotland yet you want your nation run by Brussels - or is it just you want their Euros rather the historic support of the British taxpayer


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## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So only Scots have the intellect to run Scotland yet you want your nation run by Brussels - or is it just you want their Euros rather the historic support of the British taxpayer
		
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He wants to break away from the single market and customs union that supplies most of his countries trade.  Wait a minute!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So only Scots have the intellect to run Scotland yet you want your nation run by Brussels - or is it just you want their Euros rather the historic support of the British taxpayer
		
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How did you draw that conclusion from my post  Viceroy Muddle and the new guy are both Scots.
But to answer your question, I want Scotland to be like any small successful modern European country such as Norway/Denmark/Ireland etc etc.
More like Historic non support from the UK taxpayer who, believe it or not, include the Scots who pay more than the UK average in Tax.

Johnson saying there will be no checks on the Irish border.
I am getting used to 'Johnson speak' now so I assume the checks will now be 2 miles short of the border


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So in his response to the new PM the leader of the SNP was worried that the Barnet formula might be up for a rethink. At the same time as telling the rest of UK to let Scotland join the EU as an independent state.

Corbyn has now fully reversed and declared he would fight a GE on a Remain ticket.

Swinson has declared to defy the collective will and law of the UK and prevent the UK enacting its own decision to leave.

So we have a Parliament full of MPs who campaigned and voted for a Referendum that they had declared they would honour. Those same MPs voted to pass article 50 and put into law that the UK would leave the EU.

However you choose to take a shot at the new PM for trying to enact the democratic process/decisions !
		
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This has been said so many times before it is strange that it has gone unnoticed by some - however - I think that we can assume that very few actually voted for a _No Dea_l exit - it wasn't on the voting slip, and wasn't presented as an option in the lead up to the vote.  Though as we don't know that for 100% sure maybe we should just check with the electorate - ah - maybe that's what you mean about being undemocratic.

Anyway what I posted, that you replied to, was a view from 1975 of where Scotland's future might lie - a view that has already pasrtly come about - witj the rest in process.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But to answer your question, I want Scotland to be like any small successful modern European country such as Norway/Denmark/Ireland etc etc.
		
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Once again you bring up those 3 countries as examples of how successful Scotland could be as an independent country. And each time I've responded the same way and you choose to ignore it. Your examples are two of the highest taxed countries in Europe where a beer will cost you Â£10 a pint and Ireland who have until recently received millions each year from the EU. I bet not many of your fellow Scots would be happy paying 10 quid for a pint of Tennants in their local pub.


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## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This has been said so many times before it is strange that it has gone unnoticed by some - however - I think that we can assume that very few actually voted for a _No Dea_l exit - it wasn't on the voting slip, and wasn't presented as an option in the lead up to the vote.  Though as we don't know that for 100% sure maybe we should just check with the electorate - ah - maybe that's what you mean about being undemocratic.

Anyway what I posted, that you replied to, was a view from 1975 of where Scotland's future might lie - a view that has already pasrtly come about - witj the rest in process.
		
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Do we really have to keep repeating the "it wasn't on the voting paper" crap? How many Leavers have you heard say that? Cameron et all made it very clear a vote to Leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union.

As for what some Scottish Labour MP from 1975 had to say, who gives a flying fig? BTW, if it was some English MP from 1975 I'd be saying the same thing. It has very little relevance to today's issues.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 25, 2019)

Fantastic speech by the dear leader today... I loved the energy and the way he put Corbyn and the Scot nazis in their place!
 LT said earlier that he thought he would call a GE, I agree, I can see him making a big deal of Corbyn being against leaving and Labour frustrating Brexit, and preventing him from getting the thing done. Labour betraying the will of the people etc. 
Boris will portray himself as the guardian of democracy and calling a GE as a hard brexiteer should mop up all the Brexit party and UKIP party votes, be interesting to see what the Brexiteers in the North will do. Vote for Despicable hypocrite Corbyn or Despicable Conservatives? FWIW I predict Boris will have a majority of about 40 by the time we leave.


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## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Fantastic speech by the dear leader today... I loved the energy and the way he put Corbyn and the Scot nazis in their place!
LT said earlier that he thought he would call a GE, I agree, I can see him making a big deal of Corbyn being against leaving and Labour frustrating Brexit, and preventing him from getting the thing done. Labour betraying the will of the people etc.
Boris will portray himself as the guardian of democracy and calling a GE as a hard brexiteer should mop up all the Brexit party and UKIP party votes, be interesting to see what the Brexiteers in the North will do. Vote for Despicable hypocrite Corbyn or Despicable Conservatives? FWIW I predict Boris will have a majority of about 40 by the time we leave.
		
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Sounds good but what do you think the turn out will be? After the last 2.5 years I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the electorate stayed at home.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sounds good but what do you think the turn out will be? After the last 2.5 years I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the electorate stayed at home.
		
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I think very high. Lets face it its going to be the 2nd referendum millions have been clamoring for.

Boris wins, we leave. Corbyn wins we stay in. I can see it being the highest turnout for a GE ever.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Fantastic speech by the dear leader today... I loved the energy and the way he put Corbyn and the Scot nazis in their place!
LT said earlier that he thought he would call a GE, I agree, I can see him making a big deal of Corbyn being against leaving and Labour frustrating Brexit, and preventing him from getting the thing done. Labour betraying the will of the people etc.
Boris will portray himself as the guardian of democracy and calling a GE as a hard brexiteer should mop up all the Brexit party and UKIP party votes, be interesting to see what the Brexiteers in the North will do. Vote for Despicable hypocrite Corbyn or Despicable Conservatives? FWIW I predict Boris will have a majority of about 40 by the time we leave.
		
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Unless he cancels HS2 pronto and/or does some metaphorical laying down in front of some bulldozers... I can see Boris struggling to keep his own seat...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Unless he cancels HS2 pronto and/or does some metaphorical laying down in front of some bulldozers... I can see Boris struggling to keep his own seat...
		
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He isn't a fan of HS2. Cancelling it would free up a lot of money for his other projects. It would also endear him to many conservative voters in the path of the line who have been very upset by it. I can see that being announced within the first 4-6 weeks of being in office. Maybe even an election pledge if my earlier prediction comes about.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He isn't a fan of HS2. Cancelling it would free up a lot of money for his other projects. It would also endear him to many conservative voters in the path of the line who have been very upset by it. I can see that being announced within the first 4-6 weeks of being in office. Maybe even an election pledge if my earlier prediction comes about.
		
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HS2 works are probably the current biggest gripe in his constituency... Add that to his complete failure to be in the house when the third runway was being debated places Boris in a bit of a tight position locally...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			HS2 works are probably the current biggest gripe in his constituency... Add that to his complete failure to be in the house when the third runway was being debated places Boris in a bit of a tight position locally...
		
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The third runway dodge was as embarrassing as John Major 'being at the dentist' for Maggie's last stand.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Fantastic speech by the dear leader today... I loved the energy and the way he put Corbyn and the Scot nazis in their place!
LT said earlier that he thought he would call a GE, I agree, I can see him making a big deal of Corbyn being against leaving and Labour frustrating Brexit, and preventing him from getting the thing done. Labour betraying the will of the people etc.
Boris will portray himself as the guardian of democracy and calling a GE as a hard brexiteer should mop up all the Brexit party and UKIP party votes, be interesting to see what the Brexiteers in the North will do. Vote for Despicable hypocrite Corbyn or Despicable Conservatives? FWIW I predict Boris will have a majority of about 40 by the time we leave.
		
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He did put on a very good  speech. Not the bumbling buffoon we have been promised.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Once again you bring up those 3 countries as examples of how successful Scotland could be as an independent country. And each time I've responded the same way and you choose to ignore it. Your examples are two of the highest taxed countries in Europe where a beer will cost you Â£10 a pint and Ireland who have until recently received millions each year from the EU. I bet not many of your fellow Scots would be happy paying 10 quid for a pint of Tennants in their local pub.
		
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You think the quality of a country should be judged on the price of a pint...â€¦â€¦.priceless.
How about, health care, public transport, pensions, care for the elderly, child care, housing, education, crime etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do we really have to keep repeating the *"it wasn't on the voting paper" crap? How many Leavers have you heard say that? Cameron et all made it very clear a vote to Leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union.*

As for what some Scottish Labour MP from 1975 had to say, who gives a flying fig? BTW, if it was some English MP from 1975 I'd be saying the same thing. It has very little relevance to today's issues.
		
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And how many times did we hear lead Leavers tell us that all that Cameron was saying about that was all Project Fear and *not to be believed, * and that the UK would be able to negotiate a *great *deal as the German car manufacturers and French wine producers would demand that - and that has not happened.

The *fact *about a _No Deal_ departure is that we have absolutely no idea whether or not that is acceptable to the electorate (nor did the referendum vote give us any inkling of that) - and as we are continually told - opinion polls are just not good enough.  It's the vote of the electorate that matters.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You think the quality of a country should be judged on the price of a pint...â€¦â€¦.priceless.
How about, health care, public transport, pensions, care for the elderly, child care, housing, education, crime etc.
		
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So still ignoring the main points of my post about being two of the highest taxed countries in Europe and the third that received millions from the EU then?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So still ignoring the main points of my post about being two of the highest taxed countries in Europe and the third that received millions from the EU then?
		
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No.
Why have you, once again, not read what I posted. 
Would you like to post up Norway's oil wealth fund as an example of a clever way of doing things.


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## Crazyface (Jul 26, 2019)

Love these debates. I have them on a daily basis at work, albeit a tad one sided as we are all Leavers LOL. 

I'll just ask one question that was never answered in all the debates on national TV.

If we remain, just what would be the benefits?


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## robinthehood (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Love these debates. I have them on a daily basis at work, albeit a tad one sided as we are all Leavers LOL.

I'll just ask one question that was never answered in all the debates on national TV.

If we remain, just what would be the benefits?
		
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Oof earlier you were telling us how you listened to both sides during the ref campaign and came to a decision to vote leave, but actually you've no real idea and were always going to vote leave.  
Nice .


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No.
Why have you, once again, not read what I posted. 
Would you like to post up Norway's oil wealth fund as an example of a clever way of doing things.
		
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I read exactly what you posted and like always you failed to respond with any comment about high taxes. Norway's oil wealth fund was and is a brilliant idea. However I think you might be a bit late to the party with that one unless you are going to invent a time machine and go back to the 70's to get the UK to start one.


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## IanM (Jul 26, 2019)

I'm not a fan of Boris, but a few more sessions like yesterday sticking it right up the nasty little IRA/HAMAS cheerleader and I'll buy a blooming tee shirt!

Any of those Guardian staff members who said they'd leave the country if he became PM gone yet?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He did put on a very good  speech. Not the bumbling buffoon we have been promised.
		
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His prepared speech was OK...the Q&A stand-up piece that followed was amusing...a nice change - though one that could be tiresome when he is being quizzed on serious or urgent matters.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			If we remain, just what would be the benefits?
		
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Not sure they'd be considered benefits... But we'd see greater costs to feeding the voracious appetite of bureaucracy... Stimulating ever more lazy and incompetent governance...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			I'm not a fan of Boris, but a few more sessions like yesterday sticking it right up the nasty little IRA/HAMAS cheerleader and I'll buy a blooming tee shirt!
		
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Any news on honouring his own promises? Pretty bored with team tory covering their own shortcomings by taking easy pops at Jezza and Ms Diane...


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## Dando (Jul 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Any news on honouring his own promises? Pretty bored with team tory covering their own shortcomings by taking easy pops at Jezza and Ms Diane...
		
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maybe give him more than 3 days to sort things out


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## IanM (Jul 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			A taking easy pops at Jezza and Ms Diane...
		
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I agree, it's too dam easy.  Where have the proper Labour folk gone?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And how many times did we hear lead Leavers tell us that all that Cameron was saying about that was all Project Fear and *not to be believed, * and that the UK would be able to negotiate a *great *deal as the German car manufacturers and French wine producers would demand that - and that has not happened.

The *fact *about a _No Deal_ departure is that we have absolutely no idea whether or not that is acceptable to the electorate (nor did the referendum vote give us any inkling of that) - and as we are continually told - opinion polls are just not good enough.  It's the vote of the electorate that matters.
		
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You never seem to get it!  No deal was the lever to get this good deal, as long as the EU beieve we are toothless and will have to accept what ever deal they wish to push over the table we will only be given the kind of deal countries get when they have lost a war.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Any news on honouring his own promises? Pretty bored with team tory covering their own shortcomings by taking easy pops at Jezza and Ms Diane...
		
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...and bored listening to Tory Party deputy chairpersons and others telling us that because the UK *will *leave on 31/10 there is no Plan B.  Because frankly not having a Plan B seem rather negligent - no matter how confident you are.  But why should I be surprised given there does not seem to have been any serious planning or risk assessment in place for *anything *that has happened since the 23/06.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You never seem to get it!  No deal was the lever to get this good deal, as long as the EU beieve we are toothless and will have to accept what ever deal they wish to push over the table we will only be given the kind of deal countries get when they have lost a war.
		
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Oh I get it totally.  And you are quite right.  Following the referendum it was simply put up as a lever to get a great deal - it was never as far as I can recall something that was being offered to the country in the lead up to the vote.  Remain warned about leaving the SM and the CU - Leave called those warnings Project Fear and to be ignored.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and bored listening to Tory Party deputy chairpersons and others telling us that because the UK *will *leave on 31/10 there is no Plan B.  Because frankly not having a Plan B seem rather negligent - no matter how confident you are.  But why should I be surprised given there does not seem to have been any serious planning or risk assessment in place for *anything *that has happened since the 23/06.
		
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Having no plan was a Remainer strategy.  They believed it impossible to lose the vote.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			I agree, it's too dam easy.  Where have the proper Labour folk gone?
		
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They are on the backbenches waiting for this horrendous era to be over, Momentum to loose their grip on the party.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			I agree, it's too dam easy.  Where have the proper Labour folk gone?
		
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Sadly, I believe, those with good intentions have had their enthusiasm for taking the party back to where it should be sucked out of them by the hardliners...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			maybe give him more than 3 days to sort things out
		
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Nope... He is in so much negative equity, at keeping promises, he shouldn't be allowed any opportunity to take his eye of the ball...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			I agree, it's too dam easy.  Where have the proper Labour folk gone?
		
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If you are talking about supporters in Scotland, they have joined the Independence movement [40% and rising].


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## MegaSteve (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are talking about supporters in Scotland, they have joined the Independence movement [40% and rising]. 

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No different from the many Labour folk, South of the wall, who have been part of the independence from Brussels movement...


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## IanM (Jul 26, 2019)

I am not so sure Doon.  (sadly)  I remember some great Parliamentarians who I fundamentally disagreed with, but I respected their integrity.  (Tony Benn, John Smith etc) 

 Those sort of folk are in short supply.  I hope that the new Cabinet actually want to run the country, rather than have someone else do it.


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## Crazyface (Jul 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof earlier you were telling us how you listened to both sides during the ref campaign and came to a decision to vote leave, but actually you've no real idea and were always going to vote leave. 
Nice .
		
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No, we sat and listened to all the debates and they told us sod all about why we should remain. Whereas the Leave side had three key points and kept on message. I was on the leave side before the debates and was really looking forward to being informed of the FULL reasons why we, as a country, should stay within the European idea. But the remain side failed to do this. No wonder. Hey did you know that the European parliament is going to have it's own Nation anthem and a super duper army all of it's own as well. oh and to be full run by......THE GERMANS. Hmmmmm If we'd have been told THAT we'd not be having this online debate the vote would have been 90% out !!!!!!! and we'd have run a mile!!!!!!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			No different from the many Labour folk, South of the wall, who have been part of the independence from Brussels movement...
		
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Quite a bit really...... from 41 MP's to 1...â€¦â€¦.that is a wipeout.
Joining a Scottish Unionist pact with the Tories in a UK election was an act of utter folly.

Ruth Davidson has gone right off the radar.
I think she will quit soon for a safe English Westminster seat.
Leaves the road open for a stand alone Scots Tory party like the UDP ahead of Independence.


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## Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No, we sat and listened to all the debates and they told us sod all about why we should remain. Whereas the Leave side had three key points and kept on message. I was on the leave side before the debates and was really looking forward to being informed of the FULL reasons why we, as a country, should stay within the European idea. But the remain side failed to do this. No wonder. Hey did you know that the European parliament is going to have it's own Nation anthem and a *super duper army all of it's own as well. oh and to be full run by......THE GERMANS*. Hmmmmm If we'd have been told THAT we'd not be having this online debate the vote would have been 90% out !!!!!!! and we'd have run a mile!!!!!!!!
		
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And if we had remained the idea of a stronger European fighting force would be a bad idea why?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh I get it totally.  And you are quite right.  Following the referendum it was simply put up as a lever to get a great deal - it was never as far as I can recall something that was being offered to the country in the lead up to the vote.  Remain warned about leaving the SM and the CU - Leave called those warnings Project Fear and to be ignored.
		
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You seem to have forgotten what happened. Leave never called leaving the CU and SM project fear, it was a promise by the government.

If it makes it easier to follow consider it a backstop.  Most prefer a good trade arrangement but not your country controlled by a foreign state.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			And if we had remained the idea of a stronger European fighting force would be a bad idea why?
		
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It's not a good idea if it replicates or replaces NATO.  Could we trust countries like France to be a political and military partner.


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## robinthehood (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No, we sat and listened to all the debates and they told us sod all about why we should remain. Whereas the Leave side had three key points and kept on message. I was on the leave side before the debates and was really looking forward to being informed of the FULL reasons why we, as a country, should stay within the European idea. But the remain side failed to do this. No wonder. Hey did you know that the European parliament is going to have it's own Nation anthem and a super duper army all of it's own as well. oh and to be full run by......THE GERMANS. Hmmmmm If we'd have been told THAT we'd not be having this online debate the vote would have been 90% out !!!!!!! and we'd have run a mile!!!!!!!!
		
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Oof , oh deary me .


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## Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not a good idea if it replicates or replaces NATO.  Could we trust countries like France to be a political and military partner.
		
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We already have to under the guidance of NATO. A lot of people don't realise how so much of our operational tours are already governed by other forces, a lot of Operations in theatre are not because what we decide to carry out, but are for other nations or at least in accordance with them. I've done many Ops with French, Belgian, Dutch, Slovak and German Forces. Trust me they're all a lot better to work alongside than the Yanks. 

I'm not saying a united EU force is a good or bad idea, it's has as many merits and as it does issues. The cut backs our forces have faced over the last 30 years shows we have a severe depletion in defence


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## Crazyface (Jul 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , oh deary me .
		
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Oh well. If you can't see it you're part of the problem.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Oh well. If you can't see it you're part of the problem. 

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Most on hear are aware that the second world war ended in 1945, that is 74 years ago.
You should let it go.
Do you still bear a grudge against the USA for what happened in 1775.


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## Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Most on hear are aware that the second world war ended in 1945, that is 74 years ago.
You should let it go.
Do you still bear a grudge against the USA for what happened in 1775.
		
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Have I missed something in this thread because what  has the 2nd world war got do with it.. Unless you're saying his issue is because the Germans were the main protagonist and that's his issue ðŸ¤” 

If that is the case perhaps would answer why he didn't respond to my question ðŸ¤”


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## lobthewedge (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Most on hear are aware that the second world war ended in 1945, that is 74 years ago.
You should let it go.
Do you still bear a grudge against the USA for what happened in 1775.
		
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Maybe you could remind some of your SNP pals the importance of not bearing historical grudges!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Having no plan was a Remainer strategy.  They believed it impossible to lose the vote.
		
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...and the logic behind not having a Plan B for 31/10?  

Because the 31/10 _No Plan B _strategy seems to be based upon exactly the same deluded and mistaken logic as you have identified for Remain, and look at the mess that has resulted in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Maybe you could remind some of your SNP pals the importance of not bearing historical grudges!
		
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After typing that did you drop the mic and walk away


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## User62651 (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Maybe you could remind some of your SNP pals the importance of not bearing historical grudges!
		
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Bit unfair and a lazy argument, support for independence has been a relatively recent phenomenon, Unionist parties have had the bulk of the support in Scotland for several generations. That doesn't tie in with your theory that seeking independence is all about historical grudges, if so it would have been more popular a goal a long time ago. 
England wants out of the EU Union, some Scots want out of the UK Union. Doesn't mean either are bearing historical grudges, they just want to run their own affairs if they are not compatible with other member(s) of that Union.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			We already have to under the guidance of NATO. A lot of people don't realise how so much of our operational tours are already governed by other forces, a lot of Operations in theatre are not because what we decide to carry out, but are for other nations or at least in accordance with them. I've done many Ops with French, Belgian, Dutch, Slovak and German Forces. Trust me they're all a lot better to work alongside than the Yanks.

I'm not saying a united EU force is a good or bad idea, it's has as many merits and as it does issues. The cut backs our forces have faced over the last 30 years shows we have a severe depletion in defence
		
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I dont underestimate how effective these countries military forces are, I was refering to their political commitment, I think it would be unreliable.   However the USA is  critised they are a better partner and without them I would feel less secure. Rather than throwing our money into an EU force I  would rather we invest in our own defences.


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## robinthehood (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont underestimate how effective these countries military forces are, I was refering to their political commitment, I think it would be unreliable.   However the USA is  critised they are a better partner and without them I would feel less secure. Rather than throwing our money into an EU force I  would rather we invest in our own defences.
		
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but what are your views on shorts and black socks? Thats the real issue of the day


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit unfair and a lazy argument, support for independence has been a relatively recent phenomenon, Unionist parties have had the bulk of the support in Scotland for several generations. That doesn't tie in with your theory that seeking independence is all about historical grudges, if so it would have been more popular a goal a long time ago.
England wants out of the EU Union, some Scots want out of the UK Union. Doesn't mean either are bearing historical grudges, they just want to run their own affairs if they are not compatible with other member(s) of that Union.
		
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Have they considered the border issue and if border controlls are acceptable, what about tariffs into your largest market, free movement,  falling off a cliff edge.  Wait a minute!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			but what are your views on shorts and black socks? Thats the real issue of the day
		
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I wouldnt expect it to be anything else for you.


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## lobthewedge (Jul 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit unfair and a lazy argument, support for independence has been a relatively recent phenomenon, Unionist parties have had the bulk of the support in Scotland for several generations. That doesn't tie in with your theory that seeking independence is all about historical grudges, if so it would have been more popular a goal a long time ago.
England wants out of the EU Union, some Scots want out of the UK Union. Doesn't mean either are bearing historical grudges, they just want to run their own affairs if they are not compatible with other member(s) of that Union.
		
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I just find it amusing that Doon is very quick to slap down another poster, deriding him for allegedly holding historic grudges, when many of his fellow SNP supporters are more than happy to stir up anti English sentiment with references to Culloden and the Clearances etc while harping back to the days of Wallace, Bruce and Bannockburn.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and the logic behind not having a Plan B for 31/10?

Because the 31/10 _No Plan B _strategy seems to be based upon exactly the same deluded and mistaken logic as you have identified for Remain, and look at the mess that has resulted in.
		
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A remain government was in office, it was up to them (Cameron) to have a plab B, not the General Public who voted leave.  Think about it.


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## Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont underestimate how effective these countries military forces are, I was refering to their political commitment, I think it would be unreliable.   However the USA is  critised they are a better partner and without them I would feel less secure. Rather than throwing our money into an EU force I  would rather we invest in our own defences.
		
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That is where the crux of the matter would lie and where the failings would occur. As coalition forces fighting together under our own or NATO flags it works well together and each force can make its own plans for success. Problem is if they all come together you effectively have a mini NATO with a committee deciding how forces from other countries train, carry out ops etc which wouldn't work as its such a diverse force. 

As I say I'm neither for or against it but its an interesting option however can't see it coming to fruition unless they form a seperate unit for EU use made up of squadrons and battalions from each nations services that do a 2 year attachment to the EU force before returning to normal ops on a rotation


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## User62651 (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I just find it amusing that Doon is very quick to slap down another poster, deriding him for allegedly holding historic grudges, when many of his fellow SNP supporters are more than happy to stir up anti English sentiment with references to Culloden and the Clearances etc while harping back to the days of Wallace, Bruce and Bannockburn.
		
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Have they actually said that or have Ruthie and Co said they've said that? You just don't know in the cesspit of Scottish politics these days. All parties have a few numpties in their ranks.


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## lobthewedge (Jul 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Have they actually said that or have Ruthie and Co said they've said that? You just don't know in the cesspit of Scottish politics these days. All parties have a few numpties in their ranks.
		
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Are you actually asking if the SNP or any of their supporters have ever used historical events or figures to promote their cause?


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...However the USA is  critised they are a better partner and without them I would feel less secure.
		
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Perhaps the following might temper your feelings of security!

My Dad, a Vet (indeed as a Signaller, in the vanguard) of the battle for Monte Cassino. A regular comment about that battle, normally during news of screw-ups in Vietnam, was 'When the Germans flew over, the Allies ducked; wen the Brits flew over, the Germans ducked; when the Yanks flew over, everybody ducked!'. 

They also have a history of using some pretty obscene weapons too - Agent Orange is still having serious effects in SE Asia and the effects of DU shells have made much of Iraq uninhabitable.

That said, I'd sooner they were with than against!

Oh. And I don't believe there's a need for an 'EU Army'!


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Maybe you could remind some of your SNP pals the importance of not bearing historical grudges!
		
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And perhaps the Orangemen - and their counterparts - as well!


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## User62651 (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Are you actually asking if the SNP or any of their supporters have ever used historical events or figures to promote their cause? 

Click to expand...

Thought you were referring to one of their leading politicians saying something of late along those lines, not the rank and file who I would agree quite a few of will use that kind of historic grievance rhetoric. However that doesn't explain away the relatively recent swelling of support, if not for the SNP themselves who are just a political vehicle, then for independence.
When I started voting the SNP were seen as a little protest party that got 3 or 4 seats in 'bandit country' around Moray/North Aberrdeenshire!


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## lobthewedge (Jul 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And perhaps the Orangemen - and their counterparts - as well!
		
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Couldnt agree more.


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No, we sat and listened to all the debates and they told us sod all about why we should remain. Whereas the Leave side had three key points and kept on message. I was on the leave side before the debates and was really looking forward to being informed of the FULL reasons why we, as a country, should stay within the European idea. But the remain side failed to do this. No wonder. Hey did you know that the European parliament is going to have it's own Nation anthem and a super duper army all of it's own as well. oh and to be full run by......THE GERMANS. Hmmmmm If we'd have been told THAT we'd not be having this online debate the vote would have been 90% out !!!!!!! and we'd have run a mile!!!!!!!!
		
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You need to keep up with the news. The EU army will be controlled full time by the French President. Germany want nothing to do with leading it because of the history, and Merkel has put her support behind Macron.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A remain government was in office, it was up to them (Cameron) to have a plab B, not the General Public who voted leave.  Think about it.
		
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Which is true - with the basic underlying logic behind the Remain government strategy being that Remain would win on 23/6.  That did not happen - the Remain government did not have a Plan B - we have a mess.

And today - we have a Leave government strategy that has an underlying logic that UK will leave on 31/10.  The Leave government does not have a Plan B - if it does not happen - we have a mess?


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## IanM (Jul 26, 2019)

Oh, they Remain Government had a plan a,b and c all right.... executed right up till Wednesday this week.   But you've ignored it all in the other thread, so this wont be any different.  

Back on topic, I've liked the way Boris has booted Corbyn up the bott in the Commons so far, but lets see how he delivers.  Given the way media and education has made "rubbishing the UK" the norm, his language must be really irritating certain folk.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I just find it amusing that Doon is very quick to slap down another poster, deriding him for allegedly holding historic grudges, when many of his fellow SNP supporters are more than happy to stir up anti English sentiment with references to Culloden and the Clearances etc while harping back to the days of Wallace, Bruce and Bannockburn.
		
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Once again it is not anti English but anti Westminster. How many times do I have to repeat that to lazy stereotyped posters for it to sink in.
There are many English residents of Scotland who are members of the SNP, I know of at least 4 within the nearest 20 houses to me.
There are also many English residents in Scotland who are not members of the SNP but are supporters of independence.
Do you think they stir up anti English sentiment and hold 'historical grudges'.

As Maxfi says all political parties have their share of zoomers but I can honestly say that I have met very few of lobthewedge's description.
On pro independence Blog sites that I view, blatant anti English views are generally slapped down pretty sharpish.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154430322009919493
Certainly doing well avoiding direct questions


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154430322009919493
Certainly doing well avoiding direct questions
		
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Pretty much all avoid direct questions. Not sure there's a decent politician at or near the top of any party. I expect that with Boris' record of flowery language he'll face plenty of questions that are cringeworthy.

That said, is a question like that really making best use of parliamentary time?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty much all avoid direct questions. Not sure there's a decent politician at or near the top of any party. I expect that with Boris' record of flowery language he'll face plenty of questions that are cringeworthy.

That said, is a question like that really *making best use of parliamentary time?*

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Where as all the Brexit stuff is? We've been virtually paralised in terms of movement on just about anything for 3 years so not sure someone trying to hold our PM to account for all the garbage he's spouted in a desperate attempt to gain power is that much of a problem to me.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Where as all the Brexit stuff is? We've been virtually paralised in terms of movement on just about anything for 3 years so not sure someone trying to hold our PM to account for all the garbage he's spouted in a desperate attempt to gain power is that much of a problem to me.
		
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Could have been avoided. May screwed it, many MPs can't stomach their constituents view.  Back Boris and it will be sorted in October and we can get on with sorting other issues.


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## robinthehood (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Could have been avoided. May screwed it, many MPs can't stomach their constituents view.  Back Boris and it will be sorted in October and we can get on with sorting other issues.
		
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Oof weren't that long ago you were telling us you have never supported Boris and now it's back him like some kind of brexit messiah ? He's not you know ..


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## woofers (Jul 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154430322009919493
Certainly doing well avoiding direct questions
		
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Not a lot different to Corbyn avoiding answering questions about his past behaviour, associates and voting record in Parliament.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof weren't that long ago you were telling us you have never supported Boris and now it's back him like some kind of brexit messiah ? He's not you know ..
		
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Twaddle!  I didn't say that but I don't expect you to bother and check what I actually said.  Oof!    Why do you bother posting this assenous rubbish,  you never have anything constructive to say.  #Sadmanonakeyboard ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Jul 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!  I didn't say that but I don't expect you to bother and check what I actually said.  Oof!    Why do you bother posting this assenous rubbish,  you never have anything constructive to say.  #Sadmanonakeyboard ðŸ™„
		
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Do you really want me to go back and quote you, I mean you look foolish enough as it is. 
Good.to see your goto move is still to be insulting .


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 27, 2019)

Um this thread is about Boris, but 90% of it seems to be the same old arguments found on the Brexit thread.

Now there is bound to be some crossover, but letâ€™s not hijack the subject and turn it into another Brexit thread


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 27, 2019)

Well, back to Boris..........he has announced more ideas, more positivity in 3 days than TM managed in 3 years. She really did waste her time in office. Whether he can see through any of these is another matter but he has not come in flat.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well, back to Boris..........he has announced more ideas, more positivity in 3 days than TM managed in 3 years. She really did waste her time in office. Whether he can see through any of these is another matter but he has not come in flat.
		
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Is there a garden bridge featured?


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That said, is a question like that really making best use of parliamentary time?
		
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Absolutely - at leas 'most appropriate use...'! It's for precisely this sort of purpose that this part of 'parliamentary time' was allocated!



Hobbit said:



			...I expect that with Boris' record of flowery language he'll face plenty of questions that are cringeworthy.
		
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I believe that if Boris has had time to prepare his reply, then his replies will be really good. If they are 'off the cuff', then his replies are likely to be cringeworthy. He certainly has history of 'foot in mouth disease'!


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

The man is a great representation of the operation of inherited wealth and class in the UK and is interested solely in one thing, Boris. 

His character and integrity  has proven to be suspect, at best,  over years in public life and yet here we find ourself. Another Etonian chum being sold as the saviour of the common man primarily on a single issue which he latched into purely to gain power.  

Iâ€™m embarrassed to be represented by him (and will be equally embarrassed when the other common folks saviour Farage is appointed ambassador to the USA) and in 5 years time when he has sold the yanks the NHS and syphoned the profits to his mates via lower taxes for the very rich Iâ€™ll come back to this thread and refresh it. 

Man , I managed not to mention the B word.


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## BrianM (Jul 27, 2019)

Letâ€™s be thankful itâ€™s Boris in charge and not Corbyn ðŸ˜€
We need to give him a chance and look forward instead of dwelling on the past.


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Letâ€™s be thankful itâ€™s Boris in charge and not Corbyn ðŸ˜€
We need to give him a chance and look forward instead of dwelling on the past.
		
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For the sake of humouring ourselves. 

Boris - proven liar, proven aldulterer, happy to discuss assault with friends, happy to use highly suspect language when discussing race if it garners support, worst foreign secretary for some time ( and thatâ€™s a high bar), privately educated and a group of the elite class, huge inherited wealth, hated trump- now loves trump, changes his mind  more than a guy at Gillingham Golf Club changes his socks. 


Yes thank god we have him rather than Corbyn.

Lord save us all from populism. Keep reading the mail people.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again it is not anti English but anti Westminster. How many times do I have to repeat that to lazy stereotyped posters for it to sink in.
There are many English residents of Scotland who are members of the SNP, I know of at least 4 within the nearest 20 houses to me.
There are also many English residents in Scotland who are not members of the SNP but are supporters of independence.
Do you think they stir up anti English sentiment and hold 'historical grudges'.

As Maxfi says all political parties have their share of zoomers but I can honestly say that I have met very few of lobthewedge's description.
On pro independence Blog sites that I view, blatant anti English views are generally slapped down pretty sharpish.
		
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Are you not overlooking Salmond's "Londoners need to be punished" ...

And, may I suggest closer scrutiny of wingsover comments...


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## BrianM (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			For the sake of humouring ourselves.

Boris - proven liar, proven aldulterer, happy to discuss assault with friends, happy to use highly suspect language when discussing race if it garners support, worst foreign secretary for some time ( and thatâ€™s a high bar), privately educated and a group of the elite class, huge inherited wealth, hated trump- now loves trump, changes his mind  more than a guy at Gillingham Golf Club changes his socks.


Yes thank god we have him rather than Corbyn.

Lord save us all from populism. Keep reading the mail people.
		
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Boris in my opinion will be a stronger figure than Corbyn ever will be.
Donâ€™t get me wrong Iâ€™m not his greatest fan but the cards have been dealt and we have to get on with it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Are you not overlooking Salmond's "Londoners need to be punished" ...

And, may I suggest closer scrutiny of wingsover comments...
		
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Dear Megasteve Esq.
Salmond is long gone and I think you would be pushed to find any serious anti English [as a nation] comments by the mainstream Independence bloggers.  [other than replying to individual 1966 zoomers, German/Foreigner haters, EDF, Britain First, UKIP and other English far right organisations ]
Note the double spacing after the full stop.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			...and syphoned the profits to his mates via lower taxes for the very rich...
		
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As someone not in the higher income band, please explain how charging 40 or 45 percent of income for 'very high earners' can be described as 'lower taxes'!

There are certainly facilities available for we low earning folk to save tax - if we care to stop wingeing, get off our arses and do something about it! But, of course, that would reduce the 'us and them' divide that seems so prevalent!

Oh, and just remember that those who pay to send their offspring to Private schools not only have to pay (exorbitantly) for that privilege, but also reduce the burden, at least of pupils, on State schools!

Time you brushed that chip off your shoulder!


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			For the sake of humouring ourselves.

Boris - proven liar, proven aldulterer, happy to discuss assault with friends, happy to use highly suspect language when discussing race if it garners support, worst foreign secretary for some time ( and thatâ€™s a high bar), privately educated and a group of the elite class, huge inherited wealth, hated trump- now loves trump, changes his mind  more than a guy at Gillingham Golf Club changes his socks.


Yes thank god we have him rather than Corbyn.

*Lord save us all from populism.* Keep reading the mail people.
		
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You do realise that in any democratic system it is the group/person with the most votes that wins e.g. it attempts to let voters elect their most _*popular*_ choice !


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As someone not in the higher income band, please explain how charging 40 or 45 percent of income for 'very high earners' can be described as 'lower taxes'!

There are certainly facilities available for we low earning folk to save tax - if we care to stop wingeing, get off our arses and do something about it! But, of course, that would reduce the 'us and them' divide that seems so prevalent!

Oh, and just remember that those who pay to send their offspring to Private schools not only have to pay (exorbitantly) for that privilege, but also reduce the burden, at least of pupils, on State schools!

Time you brushed that chip off your shoulder!
		
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Iâ€™m in the higher tax bracket, Iâ€™m fortunate but would not class myself as very rich.  I donâ€™t think I have a chip on my shoulder. 

The lower paid have consistently voted for parties who continue to allow the very rich to pay less tax (proportionally) than they might do , consistently voted for parties who allow global corporations to pay little to no tax in the countries where they earn their income which has consistently led to lower spend in services for the general population - and instead of apportioning the blame for that to the syphoning off resource to corporations, the Uber rich and those with poorly taxed property/land we allow the ruling class to peddle a myth of the blame lying at the feet of the poor and immigrants as perfectly displayed in your post.  Turkeys voting  for Xmas. 

Until such a time as we become better educated  about how populism allows the Uber rich to continue to control the lions share of wealth to their ends we are screwed. 

But yeah , keep voting for the muppets as year on year my tax bill gets lower.


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			You do realise that in any democratic system it is the group/person with the most votes that wins e.g. it attempts to let voters elect their most _*popular*_ choice !
		
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Strawman argument. Populism and democracy are clearly not the same thing.


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Strawman argument. Populism and democracy are clearly not the same thing.
		
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Sorry your wrong: my statement is not a straw-man argument because it is not a fallacy. The entire basis of any democratic decision making is a process/system that seeks to find that option/person which has the greatest support in the relevant population - perhaps you might then explain how voters are NOT supporting their most popular choice.. .


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## Fade and Die (Jul 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That said, is a question like that really making best use of parliamentary time?
		
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No it isnâ€™t, but scousers favourite topic of conversation is themselves. Itâ€™s always us, us, us...Ever tried to talk to a scouser about football? Canâ€™t be done, they can only talk about Liverpool.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Iâ€™m in the higher tax bracket, Iâ€™m fortunate but would not class myself as very rich.  I donâ€™t think I have a chip on my shoulder.

The lower paid have consistently voted for parties who continue to allow the very rich to pay less tax (proportionally) than they might do , consistently voted for parties who allow global corporations to pay little to no tax in the countries where they earn their income which has consistently led to lower spend in services for the general population - and instead of apportioning the blame for that to the syphoning off resource to corporations, the Uber rich and those with poorly taxed property/land we allow the ruling class to peddle a myth of the blame lying at the feet of the poor and immigrants as perfectly displayed in your post.  Turkeys voting  for Xmas.

Until such a time as we become better educated  about how populism allows the Uber rich to continue to control the lions share of wealth to their ends we are screwed.

But yeah , keep voting for the muppets as year on year my tax bill gets lower.
		
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Most of the above is simply dogmatic twaddle!

Btw. I was, for 25+years, a '(significantly!) higher earner'! My disposable income - much of it duly disposed - contributed more to the economy than simple taxation of my earnings did! 
As for corporations...there are ways to get the balance right, but it's more complicated than simply taxing profits! At least if the benefits of what large corporations bring to a country are to be 'encouraged' also!


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No it isnâ€™t, but scousers favourite topic of conversation is themselves. Itâ€™s always us, us, us...Ever tried to talk to a scouser about football? *Canâ€™t be done, they can only talk about Liverpool.*

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Just ask any Everton supporter!


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry your wrong: my statement is not a straw-man argument because it is not a fallacy. The entire basis of any democratic decision making is a process/system that seeks to find that option/person which has the greatest support in the relevant population - perhaps you might then explain how voters are NOT supporting their most popular choice.. .
		
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drdel said:



			Sorry your wrong: my statement is not a straw-man argument because it is not a fallacy. The entire basis of any democratic decision making is a process/system that seeks to find that option/person which has the greatest support in the relevant population - perhaps you might then explain how voters are NOT supporting their most popular choice.. .
		
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Sheesh. Populism is different  to being popular. Grab some nuance.


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Most of the above is simply dogmatic twaddle!

Btw. I was, for 25+years, a '(significantly!) higher earner'! My disposable income - much of it duly disposed - contributed more to the economy than simple taxation of my earnings did!
As for corporations...there are ways to get the balance right, but it's more complicated than simply taxing profits! At least if the benefits of what large corporations bring to a country are to be 'encouraged' also!
		
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Sure they bring benefits , Ireland is in the middle of a boom from the tech giants thatâ€™s great to be part of. IF you are prt of it. 

Twaddle, love it. Keep voting to be poorer fella ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Donâ€™t get me wrong Iâ€™m not his greatest fan but the cards have been dealt and we have to get on with it.
		
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I have some sympathy with that outlook but it sticks in the throat.


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## Mudball (Jul 27, 2019)

I am not sure who is being defined  rich??? Down south, that line must be close to 200-250K mark. Anything below will see your earning being gobbled by taxes (40-45%), no personal deduction, mortgage (100k earner wonâ€™t live in a mud hut and a decent 3-4 bed will mortgage at 2-3K per month), private school (15-25k per year per kid)  etc thatâ€™s before any â€˜luxuryâ€™ like a holiday and car(s).  You canâ€™t keep taxing this bracket like you do for alcohol and tobacco. You canâ€™t create a society by making the rich poor but by raising the poor up and give them aspirations and social mobility.


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## Mudball (Jul 27, 2019)

Acc to the Orange one, he and the Blonde one are working on a substantial deal.. now that should put a spanner in the work for the EU which says no deals till exit. Will this force a change in the WA.. masterstoke by Lord Boris of Zipline. 

Trump: US and UK working on 'very substantial' trade deal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49135045


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I am not sure who is being defined  rich??? Down south, that line must be close to 200-250K mark. Anything below will see your earning being gobbled by taxes (40-45%), no personal deduction, mortgage (100k earner wonâ€™t live in a mud hut and a decent 3-4 bed will mortgage at 2-3K per month), private school (15-25k per year per kid)  etc thatâ€™s before any â€˜luxuryâ€™ like a holiday and car(s).  You canâ€™t keep taxing this bracket like you do for alcohol and tobacco. You canâ€™t create a society by making the rich poor but by raising the poor up and give them aspirations and social mobility.
		
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I think if we are at a place where we can seriously think that Â£150k a year , even down south, should not be classed as well off then we have an issue of limited visibility of what its like to try and live on Â£20K anywhere.


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## woofers (Jul 27, 2019)

I agree that the guy has some dodgy past behaviour, however he appears to have clearly laid out plans or ideas and has not been shy in coming forward in setting these out.
He is certainly NOT another grey, suited, corporate type afraid of upsetting one or two people and consistently wary of being politically correct. 
The phrase "you have to break some eggs to make an omelette" springs to mind, and perhaps looking forward we now need to judge him, not by what he says, but by what he does.
As for the 'voting in' process, remind me how Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair.......


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## MegaSteve (Jul 27, 2019)

woofers said:



			As for the 'voting in' process, remind me how Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair.......
		
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And Boris, at the time, sounded like a proverbial stuck pig whinging about said 'process'...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Do you really want me to go back and quote you, I mean you look foolish enough as it is.
Good.to see your goto move is still to be insulting .
		
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Thats hilarious coming from you, stop it im splitting my sides, oh dear, how ironic.

When Boris was made Foreign Secretary I suggested people should give him a chance and these are my exact sentiments now.  Sorry if that doesnt fit your silly little mind game sweet cheeks xxx


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## robinthehood (Jul 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats hilarious coming from you, stop it im splitting my sides, oh dear, how ironic.

When Boris was made Foreign Secretary I suggested people should give him a chance and these are my exact sentiments now.  Sorry if that doesnt fit your silly little mind game sweet cheeks xxx
		
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Oof and you've had all night to come up with that ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No it isnâ€™t, but scousers favourite topic of conversation is themselves. Itâ€™s always us, us, us...Ever tried to talk to a scouser about football? Canâ€™t be done, they can only talk about Liverpool.
		
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Find an Evertonian and he will prove you wrong!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 27, 2019)

Looking like the next GE will be about who can promise the most HS miles in the North...


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			...
But yeah , keep voting for the muppets as year on year my tax bill gets lower.
		
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But I doubt it's lower than mine!


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But I doubt it's lower than mine!
		
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Someoneâ€™s got to pay for all those free bus passes ðŸ˜œ


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Someoneâ€™s got to pay for all those free bus passes ðŸ˜œ
		
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There's a 'perk' I'm still 'looking forward' to! I'll be smiling knowing that it's your greater taxes than mine - in spite of your previous assertions/implications - that are paying for most of it!


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## Hitdaball (Jul 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's a 'perk' I'm still 'looking forward' to!
		
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Donâ€™t hold your breath BoJo will have them means tested before the year is out ðŸ˜†. Anyway far too difficult getting the staff bags up the steps.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Someoneâ€™s got to pay for all those free bus passes ðŸ˜œ
		
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I thought I worked for 43 years for my bus pass .
If I had known they were free I might not have bothered.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Donâ€™t hold your breath BoJo will have them means tested before the year is out ðŸ˜†...
		
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You've obviously never been to a 'local' Conservative meeting! The hair, of those who still have some, looks like Boris's, so he wouldn't dare upset his 'core' followers!



Hitdaball said:



			... Anyway far too difficult getting the staff bags up the steps.
		
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You have (relevant) experience?


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You've obviously never been to a 'local' Conservative meeting! The hair, of those who still have some, looks like Boris's, so he wouldn't dare upset his 'core' followers!


You have (relevant) experience?
		
Click to expand...

I have got the bus with my carry bag and half set , if having a few pints.
Would not fancy carrying a staff bag anywhere.


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## Pro Zach (Jul 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dear Megasteve Esq.
Salmond is long gone and I think you would be pushed to find any serious anti English [as a nation] comments by the mainstream Independence bloggers.  [other than replying to individual 1966 zoomers, German/Foreigner haters, EDF, Britain First, UKIP and other English far right organisations ]
Note the double spacing after the full stop.
		
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Britain First and UKIP are not English far right organisations. Thereâ€™s a clue in their names that they are not English.

Britain First was founded by Jim Dowson from Airdrie, North Lanarkshire, Scotland.

UKIP was founded by Alan Sked from Cathcart, Glasgow, Scotland.


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## Lyle77 (Jul 28, 2019)

Looking like the default position will be a general election before Halloween.  Johnson will lie and bluster his way through past an incompetent Jeremy Corbyn led challenge.  Any promises made during a forthcoming election campaign of the future milk and honey would soon be forgotten once he consolidated his position.

Scotland will see a surge in support for the SNP in this scenario.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 28, 2019)

Lyle77 said:



			Looking like the default position will be a general election before Halloween.  Johnson will lie and bluster his way through past an incompetent Jeremy Corbyn led challenge.  Any promises made during a forthcoming election campaign of the future milk and honey would soon be forgotten once he consolidated his position.

Scotland will see a surge in support for the SNP in this scenario.
		
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Just a normal election then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2019)

Lyle77 said:



			Looking like the default position will be a general election before Halloween.  Johnson will lie and bluster his way through past an incompetent Jeremy Corbyn led challenge.  Any promises made during a forthcoming election campaign of the future milk and honey would soon be forgotten once he consolidated his position.

Scotland will see a surge in support for the SNP in this scenario.
		
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Latest Westminster seat predictions are for a wipeout of Labour AND Tories in Scotland. Wow
LibDems to retain their 4 seats the rest SNP.
A poll commissioned by the Government before the announcement of the Tory leadership has never been published, I wonder why?


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## drdel (Jul 28, 2019)

Lyle77 said:



			Looking like the default position will be a general election before Halloween.  Johnson will lie and bluster his way through past an incompetent Jeremy Corbyn led challenge.  Any promises made during a forthcoming election campaign of the future milk and honey would soon be forgotten once he consolidated his position.

Scotland will see a surge in support for the SNP in this scenario.
		
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May was universally chastised for being 'robotic' and ineffectual; at least its clear what BJ's stance is and he has pretty quickly tasked his cabinet with doing stuff. He's also forced Corbyn to declare a position (of sorts) so if a GE is called then there'l be some clarity of choice.

Most of the 'spending' seems to be in needed infrastructure so could prove to give a good RoI. At least if it all comes to nought there will some benefit from the investments.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2019)

...the new beginning indeed as we are led, now charging it seems, towards the cliff-edge of a _No Deal _Brexit by someone who likes to portray himself and be seen by others as a present day Churchill.  And he can do so through one characteristic of the privately educated - the ability to portray themselves with confidence and self-belief as intelligent and worthy of being followed - but it's an act - a game - played by those I read described as _Bluffocrats_.

And on Johnson the _Bluffocrat_ PM I reflect on my grandfather's view of Churchill - his view was not of the 'heroic figure and leader' who provided a focus with words of encouragement and fighting spirit during WWII.  No - my grandfather had no time for Churchill and saw Churchill as the self-serving reckless aristocratic figure that he was, the person who was the prime advocate of the action that led to the catastrophe that was Gallipoli - a catastrophe that my grandfather found himself in the middle of being in the BEF sent out by Churchill.  And my grandfather never forgave Churchill for that - no matter what 'leadership' he might have shown during WWII.  What set my grandfather's view of Churchill was the recklessness in the face of the terrible risk that Churchill knew that Gallpoli and the Dardanelles presented.

So today we have BJ - WC incarnate in who we have faith - the acolytes proclaim.  And we look to the words of Boris deP Johnson from November 2016 for guidance...

_"In the words of our great prime minister... I understood that Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it." _

And yet - his unmeant but so apt analogy is coming to pass.  His acolytes know and indeed tell us how difficult it will be for some as BJ sets a course and has UK steaming towards the iceberg.

_â€œThe price to be paid in taking Gallipoli would no doubt be heavy,â€ Churchill wrote, â€œbut there would be no more war with Turkey. A good army of 50,000 and sea-powerâ€”that is the end of the Turkish menace.â€ _

And so it came to pass - slaughter, failure and no end to the Turkish menace. 

The lessons of history we are encouraged to learn from - but today very many in the country of ours seem blind to history and our leaders very own Gallipoli's and Dardanelles...no - they are happy to follow the _Bluffocrat_.


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## IanM (Jul 28, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Britain First and UKIP are not English far right organisations. Thereâ€™s a clue in their names that they are not English.

Britain First was founded by Jim Dowson from Airdrie, North Lanarkshire, Scotland.

UKIP was founded by Alan Sked from Cathcart, Glasgow, Scotland.
		
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Ooops.   Scottish ground breaking radicals then, not nasty English Fascists ðŸ˜


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			May was universally chastised for being 'robotic' and ineffectual; at least its clear what BJ's stance is and he has pretty quickly tasked his cabinet with doing stuff. He's also forced Corbyn to declare a position (of sorts) so if a GE is called then there'l be some clarity of choice.

Most of the 'spending' seems to be in needed infrastructure so could prove to give a good RoI. At least if it all comes to nought there will some benefit from the investments.
		
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Do you not suspect the hand of Dominic Cumming behind the surge of the 'old but now new' infrastructure developments.
I suspect many of Johnston supporters will be ' blinding optimistic' but others will be 'yea, believe that one when we see it'.
No mention of how these will be funded, especially as he plans to cut taxes for the rich.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			Ooops.   Scottish ground breaking radicals then, not nasty English Fascists ðŸ˜
		
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Really, Farage founded UKIP and the other horrible lot looks like it was founded by NI fleg wavers.
Pretty pointless reply as you well know that both parties have zilch appeal in Scotland


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Really, Farage founded UKIP *and the other horrible lot looks like it was founded by NI fleg wavers.
Pretty pointless reply as you well know that both parties have zilch appeal in Scotland
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ational-joke-disappear-henry-bolton-alan-sked


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, Farage founded UKIP and the other horrible lot looks like it was founded by NI fleg wavers.
Pretty pointless reply as you well know that both parties have zilch appeal in Scotland
		
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Oh dear... Perhaps you should look deeper into the facts before posting things like this as much as Farage is a tool. He is not the founder of UKIP.. *Alan Sked*  (born 22 August 1947, in Cathcart Scotland) is a British academic and politician. He is Professor Emeritus of International History at the London School of Economics, founded the party now known as the UK Independence Party and has stood as a candidate in several parliamentary elections.

Britain First is a British fascist political organisation formed in 2011 by former members of the British National Party (BNP). A part of the far-right, the group was founded by *Jim Dowson*, an anti-abortion and far-right campaigner, who originates from Lanarkshire, Scotland.


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## patricks148 (Jul 28, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Oh dear... Perhaps you should look deeper into the facts before posting things like this as much as Farage is a tool. He is not the founder of UKIP.. Alan Sked  (born 22 August 1947, in Cathcart Scotland) is a British academic and politician. He is Professor Emeritus of International History at the London School of Economics, founded the party now known as the UK Independence Party and has stood as a candidate in several parliamentary elections.

Britain First is a British fascist political organisation formed in 2011 by former members of the British National Party (BNP). A part of the far-right, the group was founded by Jim Dowson, an anti-abortion and far-right campaigner, who originates from *Lanarkshire*, Scotland.
		
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Close enough


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...the new beginning indeed as we are led, now charging it seems, towards the cliff-edge of a _No Deal _Brexit by someone who likes to portray himself and be seen by others as a present day Churchill.  And he can do so through one characteristic of the privately educated - the ability to portray themselves with confidence and self-belief as intelligent and worthy of being followed - but it's an act - a game - played by those I read described as _Bluffocrats_.

And on Johnson the _Bluffocrat_ PM I reflect on my grandfather's view of Churchill - his view was not of the 'heroic figure and leader' who provided a focus with words of encouragement and fighting spirit during WWII.  No - my grandfather had no time for Churchill and saw Churchill as the self-serving reckless aristocratic figure that he was, the person who was the prime advocate of the action that led to the catastrophe that was Gallipoli - a catastrophe that my grandfather found himself in the middle of being in the BEF sent out by Churchill.  And my grandfather never forgave Churchill for that - no matter what 'leadership' he might have shown during WWII.  What set my grandfather's view of Churchill was the recklessness in the face of the terrible risk that Churchill knew that Gallpoli and the Dardanelles presented.

So today we have BJ - WC incarnate in who we have faith - the acolytes proclaim.  And we look to the words of Boris deP Johnson from November 2016 for guidance...

_"In the words of our great prime minister... I understood that Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it." _

And yet - his unmeant but so apt analogy is coming to pass.  His acolytes know and indeed tell us how difficult it will be for some as BJ sets a course and has UK steaming towards the iceberg.

_â€œThe price to be paid in taking Gallipoli would no doubt be heavy,â€ Churchill wrote, â€œbut there would be no more war with Turkey. A good army of 50,000 and sea-powerâ€”that is the end of the Turkish menace.â€ _

And so it came to pass - slaughter, failure and no end to the Turkish menace.

The lessons of history we are encouraged to learn from - but today very many in the country of ours seem blind to history and our leaders very own Gallipoli's and Dardanelles...no - they are happy to follow the _Bluffocrat_.
		
Click to expand...

As for the comments on Churchill, he was marmite. I seem to remember he was voted greatest Briton ever in a Beeb poll about 20 years ago. If you read his biography, as I did many years ago, you will be surprised at all the good things he did, e.g. bringing in the minimum wage way before WW1 and imploring various countries in the world to support the UK in ending the Bengal famine in '43, for which bizarrely he got the blame for - there's a long, long list of good.

Gallipoli was a failure, and as one of the proposers Churchill took the brickbats for it. I suggest you read up on it before to apply too much of the blame to Churchill. Have a look at the operational planning phase. The first battle of the Somme saw 60,000 lost in one day, and 1.2 million overall. Gallipoli saw 250,000 in 8 months. A far lower attrition rate than on the western front. Perhaps you should also read the conclusion of the govt report on Gallipoli, which found Hamilton the main reason behind its failure. Churchill resigned over it, and went and commanded a battalion on the Western Front. He was called back to Parliament, and as a minister, before that war ended. Get the facts rather than some tales from your grandfather's knee. I respect his service but not his opinion.

Your comments on Boris; thought you were all in favour of the No Deal, and him leading the UK to it.

Back to your old ways... so flippin' boring. More repeats than The Sound of Music and The Great Escape on the Beeb.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...the new beginning indeed as we are led, now charging it seems, towards the cliff-edge of a _No Deal _Brexit by someone who likes to portray himself and be seen by others as a present day Churchill.  And he can do so through one characteristic of the privately educated - the ability to portray themselves with confidence and self-belief as intelligent and worthy of being followed - but it's an act - a game - played by those I read described as _Bluffocrats_.

And on Johnson the _Bluffocrat_ PM I reflect on my grandfather's view of Churchill - his view was not of the 'heroic figure and leader' who provided a focus with words of encouragement and fighting spirit during WWII.  No - my grandfather had no time for Churchill and saw Churchill as the self-serving reckless aristocratic figure that he was, the person who was the prime advocate of the action that led to the catastrophe that was Gallipoli - a catastrophe that my grandfather found himself in the middle of being in the BEF sent out by Churchill.  And my grandfather never forgave Churchill for that - no matter what 'leadership' he might have shown during WWII.  What set my grandfather's view of Churchill was the recklessness in the face of the terrible risk that Churchill knew that Gallpoli and the Dardanelles presented.

So today we have BJ - WC incarnate in who we have faith - the acolytes proclaim.  And we look to the words of Boris deP Johnson from November 2016 for guidance...

_"In the words of our great prime minister... I understood that Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it." _

And yet - his unmeant but so apt analogy is coming to pass.  His acolytes know and indeed tell us how difficult it will be for some as BJ sets a course and has UK steaming towards the iceberg.

_â€œThe price to be paid in taking Gallipoli would no doubt be heavy,â€ Churchill wrote, â€œbut there would be no more war with Turkey. A good army of 50,000 and sea-powerâ€”that is the end of the Turkish menace.â€ _

And so it came to pass - slaughter, failure and no end to the Turkish menace.

The lessons of history we are encouraged to learn from - but today very many in the country of ours seem blind to history and our leaders very own Gallipoli's and Dardanelles...no - they are happy to follow the _Bluffocrat_.
		
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What a load of drivel..

Going on about Gallipoli and pointing out Churchills failings as a military commander. Yes Gallipoli was horrendous and many lives lost as there are in all wars, Commanders have to make decisions that ultimately make them unpopular and means a large loss of lives. But he wasn't the only person leading that part of the war as Hobbit points out. Why not point out the failings of other military men that commanded during the conflict where more lives were lost or does that not suit your stance.Perhaps your grandad would have preferred the cabinet voted in Halifax during the 2nd World War who wanted peace talks with Hitler brokered by Musolini where would the nation have been then. Its easy to point out a military commanders failings when you have never been in their position and are only hearing it from a one sided bias..  Churchill had his flaws but leading a country to victory at a time when we could have been invaded kind of outweighs things a little, especially as he knew from the start he wasn't liked but ended up doing great things ultimately with the backing of the King, cabinet and the nationðŸ™„

Respect your grandad for his service but to give out your opinion of a man as a military fact when you've never walked those paths and only have 2nd hand tales is ridiculous.

As for Boris we all know you don't like him you insult him more than enough, your post really has added nothing to the debate


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 29, 2019)

Johnson visiting  Scotland today
A secure military base....now there is a surprise.
Cummings trying desperately to keep him as far away from the Scottish public as possible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



*What a load of drivel..*

Going on about Gallipoli and pointing out Churchills failings as a military commander. Yes Gallipoli was horrendous and many lives lost as there are in all wars, Commanders have to make decisions that ultimately make them unpopular and means a large loss of lives. But he wasn't the only person leading that part of the war as Hobbit points out. Why not point out the failings of other military men that commanded during the conflict where more lives were lost or does that not suit your stance.Perhaps your grandad would have preferred the cabinet voted in Halifax during the 2nd World War who wanted peace talks with Hitler brokered by Musolini where would the nation have been then. Its easy to point out a military commanders failings when you have never been in their position and are only hearing it from a one sided bias..  Churchill had his flaws but leading a country to victory at a time when we could have been invaded kind of outweighs things a little, especially as he knew from the start he wasn't liked but ended up doing great things ultimately with the backing of the King, cabinet and the nationðŸ™„

Respect your grandad for his service but to give out your opinion of a man as a military fact when you've never walked those paths and only have 2nd hand tales is ridiculous.

As for Boris we all know you don't like him you insult him more than enough, your post really has added nothing to the debate
		
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An excellent contribution


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An excellent contribution
		
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Brilliant SILH focus on the one sentence and not on the response, how many times have you posted something similar to that line.. Pot and Kettle come to mind in this instance. As for the post it was in response to the actual drivel you wrote that initially had no contribution to thread other than to massage your own dislike of Boris and frankly was self serving and had no bearing on anything. ðŸ™„


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 29, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49146480

Your late
Get your hair cut and hands out of your pockets.
Your shoes are a disgrace.

[but well done for avoiding the commoners]

BTW the Â£300m is over 15 years and split between NI, Wales and Scotland


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## Mudball (Jul 29, 2019)

e



Hobbit said:



			As for the comments on Churchill, he was marmite. I seem to remember he was voted greatest Briton ever in a Beeb poll about 20 years ago. If you read his biography, as I did many years ago, you will be surprised at all the good things he did, e.g. bringing in the minimum wage way before WW1 and *imploring various countries in the world to support the UK in ending the Bengal famine in '43, for which bizarrely he got the blame for* - there's a long, long list of good.

Gallipoli was a failure, and as one of the proposers Churchill took the brickbats for it. I suggest you read up on it before to apply too much of the blame to Churchill. Have a look at the operational planning phase. The first battle of the Somme saw 60,000 lost in one day, and 1.2 million overall. Gallipoli saw 250,000 in 8 months. A far lower attrition rate than on the western front. Perhaps you should also read the conclusion of the govt report on Gallipoli, which found Hamilton the main reason behind its failure. Churchill resigned over it, and went and commanded a battalion on the Western Front. He was called back to Parliament, and as a minister, before that war ended. Get the facts rather than some tales from your grandfather's knee. I respect his service but not his opinion.

Your comments on Boris; thought you were all in favour of the No Deal, and him leading the UK to it.

Back to your old ways... so flippin' boring. More repeats than The Sound of Music and The Great Escape on the Beeb.
		
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Every coin as 2 sides (or authors)..   Churchill's reluctance to provide aid for the bengal famine is well documented along with some of nasty scribbling about Gandhi on the memo.  History is always written by the victor and his viewpoint.  If you believe that the Raj/Empire was without its blemishes - then you would be fooling yoursefl. 

PS:  I am not comparing Boris to Churchill - though he seems to have started that way.  I was only raising a point re the famine history.  Back to the post, maybe the country needs a Trump/Churchil/Boris type character at this point..


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			e


Every coin as 2 sides (or authors)..   Churchill's reluctance to provide aid for the bengal famine is well documented along with some of nasty scribbling about Gandhi on the memo.  History is always written by the victor and his viewpoint.  If you believe that the Raj/Empire was without its blemishes - then you would be fooling yoursefl.

PS:  I am not comparing Boris to Churchill - though he seems to have started that way.  I was only raising a point re the famine history.  Back to the post, maybe the country needs a Trump/Churchil/Boris type character at this point..
		
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Needs a bloody miracle. I have high hopes for Jo Swinson. Hopefully a hung Parliament with the LibDems holding sway.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Needs a bloody miracle. I have high hopes for Jo Swinson. Hopefully a hung Parliament with the LibDems holding sway.
		
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Shes as bad as all the others. More faces than a set of dice.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Shes as bad as all the others. More faces than a set of dice.
		
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Like her or loathe her she will bring a semblance of balance between the right leaning Tories or a left leaning Labour Party.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

I don't remember her standing up much when she was in the cabinet of the coalition g ov.


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## ger147 (Jul 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I don't remember her standing up much when she was in the cabinet of the coalition g ov.
		
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She was never a member of the cabinet. Not all ministers are cabinet members and I'm pretty sure being Nick Clegg's PPS or being Under Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs never got her a seat round the cabinet table...


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

Sorry may have got that wrong 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/lib-dem-leader-jo-swinson-18791538


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## drdel (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Like her or loathe her she will bring a semblance of balance between the right leaning Tories or a left leaning Labour Party.
		
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Pretty light-weight intellectually.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Pretty light-weight intellectually.
		
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And on what grounds do you pass that judgement?  

Besides - since when did intellect matter...these days you can spout any old tripe and if you are the right person you'll be believed by those on your side.


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## Foxholer (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Since when did intellect matter...spout any old tripe and if you are the right person you'll be believed by those on your side.
		
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Indeed! Though it's probably always been that way!

And, FWIW, not just in Politics imo. Though the style/quality of communication certainly counts too!


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## drdel (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*And on what grounds do you pass that judgement?* 

Besides - since when did intellect matter...these days you can spout any old tripe and if you are the right person you'll be believed by those on your side.
		
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By that revolutionary method of listening to her speak, answer questions and her writings. Very little depth to her comments and little or no 'presence' simply plays at domestics politics.  Can you honestly see her as a UK PM at an international forum e.g G20 meeting, NATO etc?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			By that revolutionary method of listening to her speak, answer questions and her writings. *Very little depth to her comments and little or no 'presence' simply plays at domestics politics.  Can you honestly see her as a UK PM at an international forum e.g G20 meeting, NATO etc?*

Click to expand...

I fear you may not have been concentrating on what's happening with world leaders nowadays. Donald Trump is leader of the free world, all bets are off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Needs a bloody miracle. I have high hopes for Jo Swinson. Hopefully a hung Parliament with the LibDems holding sway.
		
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Just check her voting record..she supported Mays austerity government more often than Johnson.
She does not rule out the LD's going into government with the Tories again ...â€¦......hmmm that went sooooooo well last time.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Like her or loathe her she will bring a semblance of balance between the right leaning Tories or a left leaning Labour Party.
		
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Can her policy of working against a second referendum if it resulted in leave again suggest a semblance of balance.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2019)

Johnson, prime minister, minister of the union, keeper of the magic money box key gets a rapturous welcome from hundreds of union jack waving supporters when he visits the Scottish first minister at Bute house.
He chivalrously leaves quietly by the back door so as not to embarrass his guest.

Its OK ..........â€¦.I am pretending to be a Daily Express journalist.


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## patricks148 (Jul 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson, prime minister, minister of the union, keeper of the magic money box key gets a rapturous welcome from hundreds of union jack waving supporters when he visits the Scottish first minister at Bute house.
He chivalrously leaves quietly by the back door so as not to embarrass his guest.

Its OK ..........â€¦.I am pretending to be a Daily Express journalist.

Click to expand...

He got a very warm welcome from some of the crowd, though i'm not sure why they were chanting for  Hunt


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 30, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152185504554606592


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2019)

The new Lord of the Union, Principal of the Royal Order of the Orange Sun and Ensign of Weston Super Mare receives a natural welcome from the people of Wales.


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## patricks148 (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The new Lord of the Union, Principal of the Royal Order of the Orange Sun and Ensign of Weston Super Mare receives a natural welcome from the people of Wales.
		
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again why were the welsh shounting Hunt, don't they know its Boris


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

Just Ireland left now for the Royal Surveyor of Sarkland and Carrier of the Great Golden Orb, I feel certain that will go even better for all concerned.
I do wish he would do these trips every week as they are having such a profound effect on the Union.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			again why were the welsh shounting Hunt, don't they know its Boris

Click to expand...

I do believe that the BBC had to mute their sound so that their listener could not hear such profanity.
Not so Sky News.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do believe that the BBC had to mute their sound so that their listener could not hear such profanity.
Not so Sky News.
		
Click to expand...

Some wit posted that Johnson's Faslane submarine out trumps May's Perthrshire tin hut when it comes to recent Tory PM's engaging with the people of Scotland
You can tell by the speed they exit their ministerial limos to the door they are going through just how popular politicians are.
Johnson is heads down pretty fast.


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## IanM (Jul 31, 2019)

Confusing the ballot box with a group of assembled dissenters again eh?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			Confusing the ballot box with a group of assembled dissenters again eh?  

Click to expand...

Yes because no Unionist fleg wavers turned up in Scotland and Wales.


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## Golfmmad (Jul 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Have they actually said that or have Ruthie and Co said they've said that? You just don't know in the cesspit of Scottish politics these days. All parties have a few numpties in their ranks.
		
Click to expand...


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Some wit posted that Johnson's Faslane submarine out trumps May's Perthrshire tin hut when it comes to recent Tory PM's engaging with the people of Scotland
You can tell by the speed they exit their ministerial limos to the door they are going through just how popular politicians are.
Johnson is heads down pretty fast.
		
Click to expand...

You can be sure though that if you get your way, Faslane will be emptied and left for you to repair beachballs or whatever you choose


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You can be sure though that if you get your way, Faslane will be emptied and left for you to repair beachballs or whatever you choose

Click to expand...

That's assuming you can get enough of them off the dole queue to work...


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's assuming you can get enough of them off the dole queue to work...

Click to expand...

Wont need, to, they will on the dole queue and the subs back in England. Royal Navy rules and charter dictate that.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's assuming you can get enough of them off the dole queue to work...

Click to expand...


They freely admit they like to get cheap European labour to do the hard stuff! ðŸ˜


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## lobthewedge (Jul 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's assuming you can get enough of them off the dole queue to work...

Click to expand...

Thats where youre all wrong.  

Wee Nicola said that once we are free from the Union shackles we will all be so rich from oil, whisky and shortbread revenues that none of us Scots will have to work for our English overlords ever again.  We can spend all our days waving flags, painting our faces blue and and throwing stuff over the border!

Get it right up yhes - Freedumb!


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## IanM (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes because no Unionist fleg wavers turned up in Scotland and Wales.

Click to expand...

Indeed Yes, the Indy Ref demonstrated the attendees as the noisy minority.  Again.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			Indeed Yes, the Indy Ref demonstrated the attendees as the noisy minority.  Again.
		
Click to expand...

I looked on the Whatscotlandthinks website the other day, after another one of Doon's whimsical posts. 48% No, 47% Yes. 3% Don't knows and 2% refused to answer. He's at the magic mushrooms again.


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## User62651 (Jul 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's assuming you can get enough of them off the dole queue to work...

Click to expand...

Appreciate the anti Scottish windup but keen to dispense with another lazy argument and as you're a facts guy - Scotland far from worst and better than UK average for 'government artists' (drawing the dole).  All the worst areas in England.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Appreciate the anti Scottish windup but keen to dispense with another lazy argument and as you're a facts guy - Scotland far from worst and better than UK average for 'government artists' (drawing the dole).  All the worst areas in England.

View attachment 27867

Click to expand...

My post, very deliberately, had a winky smilie at the end. I did wonder who would bite first but didn't expect it to be you. It wasn't meant to offend, just a gentle joshing. I also appreciate that, in the main, employment rates aren't down to those that are unemployed, but to the investment in the region by businesses and governments.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 31, 2019)

If we leave the EU and the Scots go independent will there be a hard border if Scotland rejoin the EU.?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If we leave the EU and the Scots go independent will there be a hard border if Scotland rejoin the EU.?
		
Click to expand...


Boris said he was going to build a wall and make the Scots pay for it.ðŸ˜œ


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Boris said he was going to build a wall and make the Scots pay for it.ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

That wont be a problem. If Scotland are still in the EU they'll have loads of eastern European builders to help them get it up in no time. ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (Jul 31, 2019)

I see Boris canâ€™t even pronounce Stormont.


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## Wolf (Jul 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If we leave the EU and the Scots go independent will there be a hard border if Scotland rejoin the EU.?
		
Click to expand...

Ne interesting development wouldn't it. 

I'm also intrigued as to what they'd do about defence forces as they'd have to have them independent of the British military and how they would meet the required NATO defence spend targets of 2% gross domestic product, which would be somewhere in excess of Â£2 billion sterling, obviously depending whether they joined NATO . Would require a large change in legislation as well.


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## Dando (Jul 31, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Ne interesting development wouldn't it.

I'm also intrigued as to what they'd do about defence forces as they'd have to have them independent of the British military and how they would meet the required NATO defence spend targets of 2% gross domestic product, which would be somewhere in excess of Â£2 billion sterling, obviously depending whether they joined NATO . Would require a large change in legislation as well.
		
Click to expand...

Theyâ€™ve got all that oil remember, and irn bru and deep fried mars bars


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If we leave the EU and the Scots go independent will there be a hard border if Scotland rejoin the EU.?
		
Click to expand...

Probably but it would be far easier to manage. Only a few key roads to set customs posts on, not the labyrinth of minor roads to patrol. Also no aggro between the locals, that has to help. 

Hey, by then the frictionless border issues will have been fully resolved ðŸ˜


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You can be sure though that if you get your way, Faslane will be emptied and left for you to repair beachballs or whatever you choose

Click to expand...

No....Plans are that it will be the home base of the Scottish Navy


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## chrisd (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No....Plans are that it will be the home base of the Scottish Navy
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Wolf (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No....Plans are that it will be the home base of the Scottish Navy
		
Click to expand...

Yet you have to fund that navy & outfit it with personnel, ships, subs, train it and sustain it. Not quick solutions even if you already have the base. 

Having seen the plans proposed a few years ago of how it would come to fruition you'd still be needing the help of the rest of the uk by coming to a deal to have some of our fleet given to you meaning even going it alone couldn't be done purely off your own back it would need be done with our supportðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If we leave the EU and the Scots go independent will there be a hard border if Scotland rejoin the EU.?
		
Click to expand...

Dunno mate depends if England want to build one.

It makes a lot more sense to have the EU/Whatsleftoftheuk border between Scotland and England than NI and Ireland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Yet you have to fund that navy & outfit it with personnel, ships, subs, train it and sustain it. Not quick solutions even if you already have the base.

Having seen the plans proposed a few years ago of how it would come to fruition you'd still be needing the help of the rest of the uk by coming to a deal to have some of our fleet given to you meaning even going it alone couldn't be done purely off your own back it would need be done with our supportðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

Given to us.. our support..
Wow you are a long way behind what's occurring. 

In your way of thinking......Maybees we can hold on to OUR trident subs, maybees renting oot a couple tae yoose yins at a huge cost.


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## Wolf (Jul 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Given to us.. our support..
Wow you are a long way behind what's occurring. 

Click to expand...

Not at all a long way behind. The plans for independence included Scotland having to negotiate with the MOD to purchase naval vessels from the British Navy at a cut cost. So no you cant do that without the help of the rest of the UK.

Likewise the proposed plans had conditions built into to allow newly formed Scottish forces to have some of the British military already servicing personnel to set up their newly founded military. So if behind your rose tinted specs you don't think that's without the assurance of the British forces/government you're very much mistaken. Because terms of service alone prevent people just leaving or moving forces without consent, it won't be independent Scotland giving that consent it will  be the MOD giving it.

Or are you proposing that you find the 2.5 billion pounds you'd need to commit to NATO from scratch and ask the 14000+ employed military/civilian contractors to leave you to it.

BTW all that's written above is direct from the Scottish Independence Party figures. You can claim all you want it will be on your terms but without the UK or another benefactor being willing to sell you/"give you what you need for an independent military you won't be able to have one that's workable for years if you think starting from scratch is the plan.

Edit: in response to that last sentence you just added. Trident, the Montrose, the new Poseiden the RAF just brought over to Lossiemouth etc. They aren't Scotland Doon... They belong to the Royal Navy, the Royal air force and the rest of the British forces, regardless where their based in the sovereignty. If you go independent you don't own them you have to broker a deal to get them, those words from your own SNP 5 years ago that you will have to make a trade deal to have them, which BTW were reiterated by the SNP minister for defence in revised proposals last year, where he again mentioned you'd have to enter negotiations to see if you can inherit from the British military 9% of the vessels but not including trident, or any subs. Also stated that you wouldn't have a fast jet capability, nor several other vessels or aircraft.. You get the land but not the goodies I'm afraid, not without the HM Forces say so.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 31, 2019)

What percentage of the national dept would Scotland inherit if they did leave the UK.?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 31, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Not at all a long way behind. The plans for independence included Scotland having to negotiate with the MOD to purchase naval vessels from the British Navy at a cut cost. So no you cant do that without the help of the rest of the UK.

Likewise the proposed plans had conditions built into to allow newly formed Scottish forces to have some of the British military already servicing personnel to set up their newly founded military. So if behind your rose tinted specs you don't think that's without the assurance of the British forces/government you're very much mistaken. Because terms of service alone prevent people just leaving or moving forces without consent, it won't be independent Scotland giving that consent it will  be the MOD giving it.

Or are you proposing that you find the 2.5 billion pounds you'd need to commit to NATO from scratch and ask the 14000+ employed military/civilian contractors to leave you to it.

BTW all that's written above is direct from the Scottish Independence Party figures. You can claim all you want it will be on your terms but without the UK or another benefactor being willing to sell you/"give you what you need for an independent military you won't be able to have one that's workable for years if you think starting from scratch is the plan.

Edit: in response to that last sentence you just added. Trident, the Montrose, the new Poseiden the RAF just brought over to Lossiemouth etc. They aren't Scotland Doon... They belong to the Royal Navy, the Royal air force and the rest of the British forces, regardless where their based in the sovereignty. If you go independent you don't own them you have to broker a deal to get them, those words from your own SNP 5 years ago that you will have to make a trade deal to have them, which BTW were reiterated by the SNP minister for defence in revised proposals last year, where he again mentioned you'd have to enter negotiations to see if you can inherit from the British military 9% of the vessels but not including trident, or any subs. Also stated that you wouldn't have a fast jet capability, nor several other vessels or aircraft.. You get the land but not the goodies I'm afraid, not without the HM Forces say so.
		
Click to expand...


BOSH! Have that Doon! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Dando (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No....Plans are that it will be the home base of the Scottish Navy
		
Click to expand...

Do you need bases for rowing boats and pedaloâ€™s


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## Dando (Aug 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Not at all a long way behind. The plans for independence included Scotland having to negotiate with the MOD to purchase naval vessels from the British Navy at a cut cost. So no you cant do that without the help of the rest of the UK.

Likewise the proposed plans had conditions built into to allow newly formed Scottish forces to have some of the British military already servicing personnel to set up their newly founded military. So if behind your rose tinted specs you don't think that's without the assurance of the British forces/government you're very much mistaken. Because terms of service alone prevent people just leaving or moving forces without consent, it won't be independent Scotland giving that consent it will  be the MOD giving it.

Or are you proposing that you find the 2.5 billion pounds you'd need to commit to NATO from scratch and ask the 14000+ employed military/civilian contractors to leave you to it.

BTW all that's written above is direct from the Scottish Independence Party figures. You can claim all you want it will be on your terms but without the UK or another benefactor being willing to sell you/"give you what you need for an independent military you won't be able to have one that's workable for years if you think starting from scratch is the plan.

Edit: in response to that last sentence you just added. Trident, the Montrose, the new Poseiden the RAF just brought over to Lossiemouth etc. They aren't Scotland Doon... They belong to the Royal Navy, the Royal air force and the rest of the British forces, regardless where their based in the sovereignty. If you go independent you don't own them you have to broker a deal to get them, those words from your own SNP 5 years ago that you will have to make a trade deal to have them, which BTW were reiterated by the SNP minister for defence in revised proposals last year, where he again mentioned you'd have to enter negotiations to see if you can inherit from the British military 9% of the vessels but not including trident, or any subs. Also stated that you wouldn't have a fast jet capability, nor several other vessels or aircraft.. You get the land but not the goodies I'm afraid, not without the HM Forces say so.
		
Click to expand...

Have you not learnt that facts mean nothing


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			BOSH! Have that Doon! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Yes thanks.
The poster is now aware that negotiated UK assets are a lot different from the first stated 'ours' and 'what we decide to give you'.


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## Wolf (Aug 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			Have you not learnt that facts mean nothing
		
Click to expand...

Oh crap I forgot valid reasoning doesn't count in these cases ðŸ˜‚


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## Wolf (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes thanks.
The poster is now aware that negotiated UK assets are a lot different from the first stated 'ours' and 'what we decide to give you'.

Click to expand...

Oh dear ðŸ™„ negotiate to see what can be given to you, don't let simple facts get in the way of your bias aye doon

Oh and believe was your who mentioned 'OUR' trident subs. You know the ones your SNP state they wouldn't get or be able to afford to run ðŸ¤”


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What percentage of the national dept would Scotland inherit if they did leave the UK.?
		
Click to expand...

Being sensible it would be the same as the other UK assets, around 10.5% [not 9%]
Some in Scotland argue that it should be none.
Some in whatsleftoftheuk argue that it should be 50%. That would of course mean that Scotland would also be entitled to 50% of the UK's assets.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Oh dear ðŸ™„ negotiate to see what can be given to you, don't let simple facts get in the way of your bias aye doon

Oh and believe was your who mentioned 'OUR' trident subs. You know the ones your SNP state they wouldn't get or be able to afford to run ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Hing oan..............when I said OUR I said I was replying in your mode of thinking.


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## Wolf (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hing oan..............when I said OUR I said I was replying in your mode of thinking.

Click to expand...

Of course you were but as I say let's ignore the facts ðŸ˜’


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Being sensible it would be the same as the other UK assets, around 10.5% [not 9%]
Some in Scotland argue that it should be none.
Some in whatsleftoftheuk argue that it should be 50%. That would of course mean that Scotland would also be entitled to 50% of the UK's assets.
		
Click to expand...

How is that figure worked out ?
Population or GDP etc.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Of course you were but as I say let's ignore the facts ðŸ˜’
		
Click to expand...

I am not ignoring facts, just correcting the language you used.
UK assets will be shared pro rata, it is not up to whatsleftoftheuk to decide what an independent Scotland is 'given'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			How is that figure worked out ?
Population or GDP etc.
		
Click to expand...

Population.


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## Wolf (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not ignoring facts, just correcting the language you used.
UK assets will be shared pro rata, it is not up to whatsleftoftheuk to decide what an independent Scotland is 'given'.
		
Click to expand...

No its up to Scotland to negotiate what the rest of the UK gives them and that's the word of your own SNP defence minister. But again let's not quibble over actual facts for sake of your own beliefs ðŸ‘


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## Fade and Die (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Being sensible it would be the same as the other UK assets, around 10.5% [not 9%]
Some in Scotland argue that it should be none.
Some in whatsleftoftheuk argue that it should be 50%. That would of course mean that Scotland would also be entitled to 50% of the UK's assets.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s obviously moot as Scotland are never leaving the Union...but hypothetically what would be your master fiscal plan? Take your hands out of our pockets and dip them into the EU pockets straight away? ðŸ¤”


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## drdel (Aug 1, 2019)

So a thread on the new UK PM becomes swamped by the nasty Englanders' rape and pillage of Scotland....


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## User62651 (Aug 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			So a thread on the new UK PM becomes swamped by the nasty Englanders' rape and pillage of Scotland....
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't, you just want it to so you can denigrate and belittle an entire nation when on here you are generally conversing with only 1 Scot in DfT. Tedious.


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## Wolf (Aug 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			So a thread on the new UK PM becomes swamped by the nasty Englanders' rape and pillage of Scotland....
		
Click to expand...

Only if that's how you view the thread, others are merely having a debate about politics, threads evolve by natural process.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Itâ€™s obviously moot as Scotland are never leaving the Union...but hypothetically what would be your master fiscal plan? Take your hands out of our pockets and dip them into the EU pockets straight away? ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Latest 53% support for Yes plus bookies have Yes at 8/11, I really cannot see the No vote gaining any ground once campaigning starts.

All the Yes group has to do is continually show pictures and quotes of the old and new PM's 
Plus re-post some of the anti Scotland/NI guff that McVey, Pritel, IDS, Fox and other Brexit No Deal supporters have put out.


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## ger147 (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest 53% support for Yes plus bookies have Yes at 8/11, I really cannot see the No vote gaining any ground once campaigning starts.

All the Yes group has to do is continually show pictures and quotes of the old and new PM's 
Plus re-post some of the anti Scotland/NI guff that McVey, Pritel, IDS, Fox and other Brexit No Deal supporters have put out.
		
Click to expand...

Have you got a link to the poll please? And not a Wings et al link, a real link...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Have you got a link to the poll please? And not a Wings et al link, a real link...
		
Click to expand...

https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-150...h-independence-up-to-53-post-brexit-1-4164772
From the former bastion of the Unionist press in Scotland.


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## drdel (Aug 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It doesn't, you just want it to so you can denigrate and belittle an entire nation when on here you are generally conversing with only 1 Scot in DfT. Tedious.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be wally and read more stuff into posts than is there. It was nought to do with belittling or denigrating Scotland home of some of my ancestors!! - just a bit of a dig at a bit of the commentary.


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## ger147 (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-150...h-independence-up-to-53-post-brexit-1-4164772
From the former bastion of the Unionist press in Scotland.

Click to expand...

The date on the story is 29th June 2016.

Oh dear, must try harder...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The date on the story is 29th June 2016.

Oh dear, must try harder...
		
Click to expand...

Technically correct though. I just picked the first one.
More recent polls actually range from 49 to 54% according to another unionist source.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2019)

A non-biassed view of what Scotland thinks. I've always found it to be very balanced and reasonable.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/quest...-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask#line


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## ger147 (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



Technically correct though. I just picked the first one.
More recent polls actually range from 49 to 54% according to another unionist source.
		
Click to expand...

It's not technically correct at all, you lied.

You posted "latest" figures then provided a link to a 3 year old story.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 2, 2019)

James Cleverly... What a knobhead...
Whinging about the grubby deals of others...
Completely overlooking his own teams 'grubby' deal keeping them in charge...


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2019)

Boris is a Jedi... (or a Sith Lord)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 2, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			James Cleverly... What a knobhead...
Whinging about the grubby deals of others...
Completely overlooking his own teams 'grubby' deal keeping them in charge...
		
Click to expand...

Cleverly being a champion - like DRaab - of the 'undemocratic backstop' mantra.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 2, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			James Cleverly... What a knobhead...
Whinging about the grubby deals of others...
Completely overlooking his own teams 'grubby' deal keeping them in charge...
		
Click to expand...

It's kind of where we are with politics now. People just say stuff that is clearly hypocritcal or in some cases just plain wrong, yet they can get away with it as truth and honesty are no longer valued competencies of our leaders.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's not technically correct at all, you lied.

You posted "latest" figures then provided a link to a 3 year old story.
		
Click to expand...

Well the Union is 300 years old so in my thinking 3 years is quite recent.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A non-biassed view of what Scotland thinks. I've always fo
		
Click to expand...

The same can be said of Wings over Scotland, from a non biased view of course.
At least their commissioned polls are sourced out to a well established pollster with a good reputation.
Some on here would swear otherwise, thereby showing their own bias.


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## ger147 (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well the Union is 300 years old so in my thinking 3 years is quite recent.

Click to expand...

Thank you for confirming you were lying, will save me asking you to post any corroboration the next time you post any figures...


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## robinthehood (Aug 4, 2019)

Excellent from John Oliver on bojo 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10715396/


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## robinthehood (Aug 4, 2019)

Obviously you'll  need sky to watch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The same can be said of Wings over Scotland, from a non biased view of course.
At least their commissioned polls are sourced out to a well established pollster with a good reputation.
Some on here would swear otherwise, thereby showing their own bias.
		
Click to expand...

@DfT (and anyone else interested) - the guy (Stuart) who runs Wings (he lives in Bath  ) has just been on LBC talking with JO'B.  Discussion this hour is on Scottish independence in the context of Brexit and a BeeJay Premiership.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			@DfT (and anyone else interested) - the guy *(Stuart) who runs Wings (he lives in Bath*  ) has just been on LBC talking with JO'B.  Discussion this hour is on Scottish independence in the context of Brexit and a BeeJay Premiership.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously?...The guy who runs the pro independence site wingsoverscotland does not actually live in Scotland but prefers to live in England the focal point for all of Scotlandâ€™s problems?ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

My dog what a massive hypocrite! This is right up there with the Abbotpotomus sending her son to private schoolðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ 

What a joke the whole notion of Scottish independence is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Seriously?...The guy who runs the pro independence site wingsoverscotland does not actually live in Scotland but prefers to live in England the focal point for all of Scotlandâ€™s problems?ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

My dog what a massive hypocrite! This is right up there with the Abbotpotomus sending her son to private schoolðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£

What a joke the whole notion of Scottish independence is.
		
Click to expand...

So you think that Scots living in England should have no voice in the independence debate?  Really?  Anyway - in respect of the 'editor' of Wings I think I'd leave that decision up to the readers of Wings...

You'll be no doubt be calling Leave supporting English living in the EU27 as hypocrites as they prefer to live in the EU the focal point of all of England's problems - and that they should have no voice in the Brexit debate?  But that would be absurd.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you think that Scots living in England should have no voice in the independence debate?  Really?  Anyway - in respect of the 'editor' of Wings I think I'd leave that decision up to the readers of Wings...

You'll be no doubt be calling Leave supporting English living in the EU27 as hypocrites as they prefer to live in the EU the focal point of all of England's problems - and that they should have no voice in the Brexit debate?  But that would be absurd.
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm... For me, Scotland are no longer seeking independence... They, if Doon is correct, are now wishing to take their rear end from one 'invader' and offer it up to another...

Independence is about self determination not dancing to anothers tune..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Hmmm... For me, Scotland are no longer seeking independence... They, if Doon is correct, are now wishing to take their rear end from one 'invader' and offer it up to another...

Independence is about self determination not dancing to anothers tune..
		
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Well in that case the UK best not try and do it's trade deals under the auspices of the completely undemocratic WTO


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## patricks148 (Aug 7, 2019)

Love the way his new Gov have tried to pass off money  20,000 new Police officers, when in fact it won't even keep pace with exosting wastage and now extra Money for the NHS, money they had already been given an not allowed to spend... Found out very quickly.... he's not a liar at all


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's kind of where we are with politics now. People just say stuff that is clearly hypocritcal or in some cases just plain wrong, yet they can get away with it as truth and honesty are no longer valued competencies of our leaders.
		
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For me a quite stunning example of this, and for sheer brass neck, was yesterday when a certain Mr Gove laid the blame for where we in negotiations with the EU (deadlocked in the middle of nowhere) 100% at the door of the EU.  Despite the UK being desperate to reopen negotiations the EU was now, sadly and wrongly, being unacceptably intransigent (implying the EU has changed it's position since BJ was elected PM).


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me a quite stunning example of this, and for sheer brass neck, was yesterday when a certain Mr Gove laid the blame for where we in negotiations with the EU (deadlocked in the middle of nowhere) 100% at the door of the EU.  Despite the UK being desperate to reopen negotiations the EU was now, sadly and wrongly, being unacceptably intransigent (implying the EU has changed it's position since BJ was elected PM).
		
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Where on earth do you get that leap to the implication? The EU hasn't changed anything. It told May it wouldn't reopen the WA, and it said it again during the Tory leader election and its said it since.

They say they want a deal and they know that the deal has failed in Westminster 3 times. The UK, quite rightly, have said no. I'd argue that although it takes 2 to make a deal, the deal on offer just won't fly.

Think about it; both sides want a deal. One side says the deal has been tested 3 times in Parliament, and proven to be unacceptable. The EU won't change it but they want a deal. Just who is being deliberately obtuse and stupid? I get that they have the right to say this is the only deal on offer but so to the UK has the right to say no to the deal. 

I see it that both sides are equally right in their respective stance but to say we won't change the deal you've rejected 3 times but we want a deal... doh! Just plain daft.


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## Mudball (Aug 7, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Love the way his new Gov have tried to pass off money  20,000 new Police officers, when in fact it won't even keep pace with exosting wastage and now extra Money for the NHS, money they had already been given an not allowed to spend... Found out very quickly.... he's not a liar at all

Click to expand...

Really?? i thought the extra money was new money... where is the source of saying otherwise..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Where on earth do you get that leap to the implication? The EU hasn't changed anything. It told May it wouldn't reopen the WA, and it said it again during the Tory leader election and its said it since.*

They say they want a deal and they know that the deal has failed in Westminster 3 times. The UK, quite rightly, have said no. I'd argue that although it takes 2 to make a deal, the deal on offer just won't fly.

Think about it; both sides want a deal. One side says the deal has been tested 3 times in Parliament, and proven to be unacceptable. The EU won't change it but they want a deal. Just who is being deliberately obtuse and stupid? I get that they have the right to say this is the only deal on offer but so to the UK has the right to say no to the deal.

I see it that both sides are equally right in their respective stance but to say we won't change the deal you've rejected 3 times but we want a deal... doh! Just plain daft.
		
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From the mouth of members of the government and of Gove - weirdly implying that the stance that the EU is taking now, is a harder stance than it was taking BBE (Before Boris Era) - as if something has changed that has meant that Johnson has only now had to take the approach he is taking - and they are disappointed and saddened that it has.   I know that the EU hasn't changed their position on the WA - or indeed on their 4Fs - they haven't changed things on them since the referendum and they stated their position before it.

But we will *never* get a deal if we simply refuse to engage in negotiations.  Even if you suspect 99% that you won't get anywhere - if you are *really* wanting a deal then you surely look to explore that 1%.  And the fact is that telling the EU to remove *any* and *every* backstop before we talk seems counter-productive when there seem to be possibilities around time-limiting the backstop or in giving the UK some form of unilateralism over leaving it - these are surely are worth exploring - even if they are only in the 1% possibility.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really?? i thought the extra money was new money... where is the source of saying otherwise..
		
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Is it new like the new money just announced for the NHS.  That'll be the money that has been held by NHS Trusts as savings they were not allowed to spend - so not new money at all I heard the Minister of State for Health (Chris Skidmore) say a couple of evenings back when interrogated by KG-M on Ch4 News.  So kind of new money...but not really...


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## patricks148 (Aug 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really?? i thought the extra money was new money... where is the source of saying otherwise..
		
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everywhere


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Hmmm... For me, Scotland are no longer seeking independence... They, if Doon is correct, are now wishing to take their rear end from one 'invader' and offer it up to another...

Independence is about self determination not dancing to anothers tune..
		
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I really would like to understand Scotland's logic, in fact I asked DfT to give some pointers a few pages back but he's declined the offer.


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## patricks148 (Aug 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I really would like to understand Scotland's logic, in fact I asked DfT to give some pointers a few pages back but he's declined the offer.
		
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from a personal point of view i don't want to live in a country that is run for the benifit of  Boris, the Tory party and the very rich who back them. Those  who have become even richer over tha last few years of Tory austeriy, while the poor have become even poorer.

many i know feel the same, quite a few of those were unionists at the last indy election.


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			from a personal point of view i don't want to live in a country that is run for the benifit of  Boris, the Tory party and the very rich who back them. Those  who have become even richer over tha last few years of Tory austeriy, while the poor have become even poorer.

many i know feel the same, quite a few of those were unionists at the last indy election.
		
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The imbalance of wealth is a worry for me and its effect on future generations -its a big global issue. So yup I can accept that point of view and it could be a good, valid reason to vote for opposition party(ies). The bit I struggle with is understanding why being shackled to a remote (somewhat undemocratic) federalist EU, (euro, ECJ, ECB and taxation) of the future is a better option.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I really would like to understand Scotland's logic, in fact I asked DfT to give some pointers a few pages back but he's declined the offer.
		
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I have explained it to death.
It is certainly more robust than the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

Scots folk mildly amused at the sight of both the Scots Tory and Labour leaders being thrown to the dogs by their respective Westminster head offices.
John MacDonald even harping on about an 'English' [Westminster] parliament giving the 'SNP' [Scottish Government] the opportunity to hold a second referendum.
So out of touch it is painful. Nearly 40% of Scots Labour voters support a second referendum.


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have explained it to death.
It is certainly more robust than the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

Scots folk mildly amused at the sight of both the Scots Tory and Labour leaders being thrown to the dogs by their respective Westminster head offices.
John MacDonald even harping on about an 'English' [Westminster] parliament giving the 'SNP' [Scottish Government] the opportunity to hold a second referendum.
So out of touch it is painful. Nearly 40% of Scots Labour voters support a second referendum.
		
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Ah yes, the nearly 40% hold more sway than the more than 60%. The majority say no therefore its a yes... love the logic there Doon.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 8, 2019)

Ainâ€™t democracy grand ðŸ‘


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			The imbalance of wealth is a worry for me and its effect on future generations -its a big global issue. So yup I can accept that point of view and it could be a good, valid reason to vote for opposition party(ies). The bit I struggle with is understanding why being shackled to a remote (somewhat undemocratic) federalist EU, (euro, ECJ, ECB and taxation) of the future is a better option.
		
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Scotland has done rather well from money from the EU for capitol projects. if you ever come up to this part of the world, you will pass; Bridges, Roads, bypasses, flood difences all funded by the EU. our nearest trading partner  for Scotish prodoce, like fish, Beef, lamb ect. plus the migrant workers all relied on and are benifits to agriculture and the hosipitality industry.

i'm sure there is more, but those are good enough for me


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ah yes, the nearly 40% hold more sway than the more than 60%. The majority say no therefore its a yes... love the logic there Doon.
		
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Just pointing out the fact to lazy thinkers that all Scots Labour voters are 100% against Scots Independence.
Like some say all Tories support Brexit.
How do you know that 40% is not the majority. 20% could be don't knows/unsure.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Scotland has done rather well from money from the EU for capitol projects. if you ever come up to this part of the world, you will pass; Bridges, Roads, bypasses, flood difences all funded by the EU. our nearest trading partner  for Scotish prodoce, like fish, Beef, lamb ect. plus the migrant workers all relied on and are benifits to agriculture and the hosipitality industry.

i'm sure there is more, but those are good enough for me
		
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Exactly this.^^^^

Scotland has become a subsidy junkie and the thought of making do with a bit less has got them looking elsewhere for their â€œfixâ€ 
They quail at the prospect of no cheap migrant labour and the idea of actually doing their own graft and standing on their own two feet?... Well letâ€™s face it they simply cannot. 

The Proclaimers had it right in their song â€œCap in handâ€

â€œWe boast, then we cowerâ€


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Exactly this.^^^^

Scotland has become a subsidy junkie and the thought of making do with a bit less has got them looking elsewhere for their â€œfixâ€
They quail at the prospect of no cheap migrant labour and the idea of actually doing their own graft and standing on their own two feet?... Well letâ€™s face it they simply cannot.

The Proclaimers had it right in their song â€œCap in handâ€

â€œWe boast, then we cowerâ€
		
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The fact that, pro rata, Scots pay more tax into the UK exchequer than rUK seems to have escaped your attention.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The fact that, pro rata, Scots pay more tax into the UK exchequer than rUK seems to have escaped your attention.
		
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Maybe but you know you can never be independent financially, the numbers simply donâ€™t add up.
Itâ€™s just a Bannockburn mentality stoke up by the SNP career Marksists,

You were betrayed by Labour, SNP is just a protest vote.


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have explained it to death.
It is certainly more robust than the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

Scots folk mildly amused at the sight of both the Scots Tory and Labour leaders being thrown to the dogs by their respective Westminster head offices.
John MacDonald even harping on about an 'English' [Westminster] parliament giving the 'SNP' [Scottish Government] the opportunity to hold a second referendum.
So out of touch it is painful. Nearly 40% of Scots Labour voters support a second referendum.
		
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I get you don't like the politicians.
You still avoided my question on what makes the EU a place where Scots would be better represented.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			I get you don't like the politicians.
You still avoided my question on what makes the EU a place where Scots would be better represented.
		
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I have done that hundreds of times on here.

But just two points to ponder on, a Scottish politician representing a Scottish constituency could become president of the EU but since EVIL could never become a UK PM [or even a prominent cabinet member]
Compare how the EU have defended Irelands position and how Westminster Tory leaders treat elected Scottish MP's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe but you know you can never be independent financially, the numbers simply donâ€™t add up.
Itâ€™s just a Bannockburn mentality stoke up by the SNP career Marksists,

You were betrayed by Labour, SNP is just a protest vote.
		
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Utter nonsense


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have done that hundreds of times on here.

But just two points to ponder on, a Scottish politician representing a Scottish constituency could become president of the EU but since EVIL could never become a UK PM [or even a prominent cabinet member]
Compare how the EU have defended Irelands position and how Westminster Tory leaders treat elected Scottish MP's.
		
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Wasn't Gordon Brown, exUK PM born in Giffnock?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2019)

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/20...e-a-scottish-uk-prime-minister_n_8356636.html


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Wasn't Gordon Brown, exUK PM born in Giffnock?
		
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What part of 'since EVIL' did you not understand.


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Exactly this.^^^^

Scotland has become a subsidy junkie and the thought of making do with a bit less has got them looking elsewhere for their â€œfixâ€
They quail at the prospect of no cheap migrant labour and the idea of actually doing their own graft and standing on their own two feet?... Well letâ€™s face it they simply cannot.

The Proclaimers had it right in their song â€œCap in handâ€

â€œWe boast, then we cowerâ€
		
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all the capitopl projects i mentioned wouldn't have been done without those hand outs...Esp up here in the Highlands, it would still be taking 3 hours to get to Dornoch without it now its 4 mins,fancy going to Skye, before you would have had to get a boat, drive up the west coast or get from Village to Village in some parts, no problem, add a few hours onto your trip for a 10 mine journey... no problem.

while all the Gov funding on infrastructure was being spent down south, we go nothing its little supprise many are seeing the EU as a better alternative to an unequal society that England seems to be happy with. 

the sort of attitude you are protraying here is one of the things thats making Indy ref 2 a thing to look forward to


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Utter nonsense
		
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Hereâ€™s something else that will make your Tam spin...

We already know that the Scots rejected independence in 2014...so could it not be that they voted Remain because the BRITISH government told them to? This would also explain the N.Ireland vote. Would the Ulster Proddies vote AGAINST any British government? No chance.

I think you have been duped by the SNP...again.


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What part of 'since EVIL' did you not understand.

Click to expand...

Ahh, of course, and I'm just guessing, but isn't it something to do with the devolution and segregation Scotland *wanted* from Parliament while keeping its own MPs like Blackford, in the UK parliament. So you have a Devolved Assembly with a First Minister but you want to have the PM bit as well.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all the capitopl projects i mentioned wouldn't have been done without those hand outs...Esp up here in the Highlands, it would still be taking 3 hours to get to Dornoch without it now its 4 mins,fancy going to Skye, before you would have had to get a boat, drive up the west coast or get from Village to Village in some parts, no problem, add a few hours onto your trip for a 10 mine journey... no problem.

while all the Gov funding on infrastructure was being spent down south, we go nothing its little supprise many are seeing the EU as a better alternative to an unequal society that England seems to be happy with.

the sort of attitude you are protraying here is one of the things thats making Indy ref 2 a thing to look forward to

Click to expand...

Where do you think that money comes from, the EU dont earn money, they take it from us.  The UK is a net contributer to the EU so the money is our own anyway, most of it probably from London.


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Where do you think that money comes from, the EU dont earn money, they take it from us.  The UK is a net contributer to the EU so the money is our own anyway, most of it probably from London.
		
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well if the UK Tory Gov for the 80's 90 and invested in the rest of the uk and Scotlands infrastructure maybe things would be different


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Hereâ€™s something else that will make your Tam spin...

We already know that the Scots rejected independence in 2014...so could it not be that they voted Remain because the BRITISH government told them to? This would also explain the N.Ireland vote. Would the Ulster Proddies vote AGAINST any British government? No chance.

I think you have been duped by the SNP...again.
		
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Oh dear.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Ahh, of course, and I'm just guessing, but isn't it something to do with the devolution and segregation Scotland *wanted* from Parliament while keeping its own MPs like Blackford, in the UK parliament. So you have a Devolved Assembly with a First Minister but you want to have the PM bit as well.
		
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Are you even remotely aware that if the Cameron government had fulfilled their promise to Scotland of The Vow that we would not even be having this conversation.
Hours after the referendum The Tories come up with EVIL cancelled The VOW and the support for Scottish Independence grew even stronger.
That is why we are where we are today.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Ahh, of course, and I'm just guessing, but isn't it something to do with the devolution and segregation Scotland *wanted* from Parliament while keeping its own MPs like Blackford, in the UK parliament. So you have a Devolved Assembly with a First Minister but you want to have the PM bit as well.
		
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Are you suggesting that the UK is not a democracy and only England can control the UK.


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you suggesting that the UK is not a democracy and only England can control the UK.
		
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I think in our banter we may be taking the thread of on too much of a tangent.  Suffice to say that my posts were careful to avoid specifying 'England'. I strongly believe that there should be democratic equity for any and all citizens of the UK. Thus I'm of the personal opinion that the UK is too small to be incurring the costs, inequalities and disruption of running devolved 'governments' unless they each take *full* responsibilities.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all the capitopl projects i mentioned wouldn't have been done without those hand outs...Esp up here in the Highlands, it would still be taking 3 hours to get to Dornoch without it now its 4 mins,fancy going to Skye, before you would have had to get a boat, drive up the west coast or get from Village to Village in some parts, no problem, add a few hours onto your trip for a 10 mine journey... no problem.

while all the Gov funding on infrastructure was being spent down south, we go nothing its little supprise many are seeing the EU as a better alternative to an unequal society that England seems to be happy with.

the sort of attitude you are protraying here is one of the things thats making Indy ref 2 a thing to look forward to

Click to expand...

Donâ€™t get me wrong. I actually like the Scots on a personal level. As Iâ€™ve mentioned on other threads I enjoy visiting the Wifeâ€™s family in the Highlands, we play Nethy and Carbridge open a bottle or two and have some great craic, but my goodness they love to moan.
If it was ever possible to win a gold medal or World Cup for looking at everything with theâ€ glass is half emptyâ€ attitude then you would take some beatingâ€¦.. As dominant as the Germans at football or New Zealand at rugby I reckon,  you are masters of turning positives into negatives. 

You get a vote on independence and vote to stay in the UK, Then you moan, moan, moan about England and vote for those incompetent, miserable leftyâ€™s the SNP just because they hate the English... do you not see our resentment? How do you honestly think you are viewed by the rest of the U.K.?


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t get me wrong. I actually like the Scots on a personal level. As Iâ€™ve mentioned on other threads I enjoy visiting the Wifeâ€™s family in the Highlands, we play Nethy and Carbridge open a bottle or two and have some great craic, but my goodness they love to moan.
If it was ever possible to win a gold medal or World Cup for looking at everything with theâ€ glass is half emptyâ€ attitude then you would take some beatingâ€¦.. As dominant as the Germans at football or New Zealand at rugby I reckon,  you are masters of turning positives into negatives.

You get a vote on independence and vote to stay in the UK, Then you moan, moan, moan about England and vote for those incompetent, miserable leftyâ€™s the SNP just because they hate the English... do you not see our resentment? How do you honestly think you are viewed by the rest of the U.K.?
		
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so told in the indy ref if we left the UK, scotland would be out of the EU.... suprise, suprise middle England want to leave the EU....lol ..you couldn't make it up. i would stop now if i were you, the hole you are digging is pretty big already


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## MegaSteve (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so told in the indy ref if we left the UK, scotland would be out of the EU.... suprise, suprise middle England want to leave the EU....lol ..you couldn't make it up. i would stop now if i were you, the hole you are digging is pretty big already

Click to expand...

The error there being taking heed of a politicians word...


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so told in the indy ref if we left the UK, scotland would be out of the EU.... suprise, suprise middle England want to leave the EU....lol ..you couldn't make it up. i would stop now if i were you, the hole you are digging is pretty big already

Click to expand...

Whatâ€™s this obsession with the EU?

Will they give you powers over your own laws and tax? I think not.

Will they give a shit about your fishing or industries? I think not.

Will they put up with your constant  moaning? Hell no!

You want to go from one Union where you are massively over represented in running the show to trying to join another union where you will have the same status as Bulgaria. It honestly beggars belief!


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Whatâ€™s this obsession with the EU?

Will they give you powers over your own laws and tax? I think not.

Will they give a shit about your fishing or industries? I think not.

Will they put up with your constant  moaning? Hell no!

You want to go from one Union where you are massively over represented in running the show to trying to join another union where you will have the same status as Bulgaria. It honestly beggars belief!
		
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LOL you should become an MP, lol never heard so much tripe 

when it comes to moaning all ive heard on here is you moaning about Scotland

when you have had 400 years of rule by another country where you paid tax and got sweet fanny addams back, the all the money from oil at its height went into the Westminster Gov.  with nothing being spent on Scotland for years, its industries left to rot, and the only investment came from EU funding.

With the devolved Scottish Parlament we have had some laws back, but not all. 

Even Labour re wrote the maritime boubdries so some of the richest oil field are now in English waters

As for Fishing i think TM tried to Bargain that away straight away anything so it will be no change as the scottish fishing industry was sold down the river by the Tories when we joint the EU in the first place


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			...with nothing being spent on Scotland for years, its industries left to rot, and the *only investment came from EU funding*.
...
		
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That, of course, ignores the fact that *any EU funding has to be 100% matched by UK* (in this case) Govrnment funding!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

For information, the Fishing and Agriculture ministers [Gove's lot] has just stolen Â£162m of EU monies due to Scotland and said it will spread it around the UK in areas where that type of funding is not available. It was meant for the Highlands of Scotland.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			LOL you should become an MP, lol never heard so much tripe 

when it comes to moaning all ive heard on here is you moaning about Scotland

*when you have had 400 years of rule by another country where you paid tax and got sweet fanny addams back, the all the money from oil at its height went into the Westminster Gov.  with nothing being spent on Scotland for years, its industries left to rot, and the only investment came from EU funding.*

With the devolved Scottish Parlament we have had some laws back, but not all.

Even Labour re wrote the maritime boubdries so some of the richest oil field are now in English waters

As for Fishing i think TM tried to Bargain that away straight away anything so it will be no change as the scottish fishing industry was sold down the river by the Tories when we joint the EU in the first place
		
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The bold part is word perfect from the SNP handbook. Well done, wee Niccola would be proud. 

400 year old grudges! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ you couldnâ€™t make it up! .... seriously though Patrick will never amount to anything if you wonâ€™t let go of the past. ðŸ™


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## patricks148 (Aug 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The bold part is word perfect from the SNP handbook. Well done, wee Niccola would be proud.

400 year old grudges! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ you couldnâ€™t make it up! .... seriously though Patrick will never amount to anything if you wonâ€™t let go of the past. ðŸ™
		
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I'm no SNP supporter, so you are barking up the wrong tree, just letting know the strength of what some feel and i can understand the resentment.. FYI i was not born in Scotland


whats the saying walk a mile in someone elses shoes and you will truly understand them.

In all your replies there have been insults thown at Scotland and its choices, England had its choice, whats wrong with others having theres? and i say others becaus by the look of things Wales might be going the same way


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm no SNP supporter, so you are barking up the wrong tree, just letting know the strength of what some feel and i can understand the resentment.. FYI i was not born in Scotland


*whats the saying walk a mile in someone elses shoes and you will truly understand them.*

In all your replies there have been insults thown at Scotland and its choices, England had its choice, whats wrong with others having theres? and i say others becaus by the look of things Wales might be going the same way
		
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This works both ways though. Try to see our point of view, you take take take but nothing seems enough to make you happy. The tail is always trying to wag the dog.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

F&D tell me where the main centres of wealth and investment are in the UK then see how that aligns with your take take scenario.
Steady though, you are getting perilously close to the deep fried mars bars, all Scots are unemployed type.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That, of course, ignores the fact that *any EU funding has to be 100% matched by UK* (in this case) Govrnment funding!
		
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And the other half comes from our contributions.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm no SNP supporter, so you are barking up the wrong tree, just letting know the strength of what some feel and i can understand the resentment.. FYI i was not born in Scotland


whats the saying walk a mile in someone elses shoes and you will truly understand them.

In all your replies there have been insults thown at Scotland and its choices, England had its choice, whats wrong with others having theres? and i say others becaus by the look of things Wales might be going the same way
		
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Still believe Scotland made the wrong choice at indyref #1... 

And, it would be warmly welcomed if the good people, from north of the wall, would desist from telling us (from south of the wall) that they feel we got it wrong wishing to brexit...


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And the other half comes from our contributions.
		
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Excellent point!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2019)

I just can't help laughing at Johnson's obviously 'every day good news' story being totally torn apart within minutes of his utterings.
Dominic Cummings must be going into overdrive.
Are these guys for real, I know they fooled half a nation with Brexit but do you not think folk would be a bit more wary second time around.


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I just can't help laughing at Johnson's obviously 'every day good news' story being totally torn apart within minutes of his utterings.
Dominic Cummings must be going into overdrive.
Are these guys for real, I know they fooled half a nation with Brexit but do you not think folk would be a bit more wary second time around.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you could explain what, under the current circumstances, you'd expect a new PM to do?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I just can't help laughing at Johnson's obviously 'every day good news' story being totally torn apart within minutes of his utterings.
Dominic Cummings must be going into overdrive.
Are these guys for real, I know they fooled half a nation with Brexit but do you not think folk would be a bit more wary second time around.
		
Click to expand...

So over half the voters were 'stupid'  and you would be expert in deciding this because ? ðŸ¤¡ðŸ¤¯


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps you could explain what, under the current circumstances, you'd expect a new PM to do?
		
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Stop lying to his citizens be a good start.


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Stop lying to his citizens be a good start. 

Click to expand...

A quick search on Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. They all lie, some more than others. The wee ginger one is up there with other party leaders.


nicola-sturgeon-urged-apologise-30-billion-north-sea-oil-lie

scottish-labour-accuses-nicola-sturgeon-of-lying-over-second-independence-vote

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-accused-lying-amid-11880343

scottish-nurse-savages-nicola-sturgeon-over-nhs-under-funding-by-snp-claiming-staff-have-to-use-food-banks-to-get-by


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A quick search on Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. They all lie, some more than others. The wee ginger one is up there with other party leaders.


nicola-sturgeon-urged-apologise-30-billion-north-sea-oil-lie

scottish-labour-accuses-nicola-sturgeon-of-lying-over-second-independence-vote

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-accused-lying-amid-11880343

scottish-nurse-savages-nicola-sturgeon-over-nhs-under-funding-by-snp-claiming-staff-have-to-use-food-banks-to-get-by

Click to expand...

whats Nicola got to do with it this is a thread about Borsi?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			whats Nicola got to do with it this is a thread about Borsi?
		
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Whataboutry of course
Daily Record/Scottish Labour sources. 
The last one was an absolute Pearler as the QT 'non NHS but private nurse plant' was lying about her experiences. BMW driver who holidays abroad.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Stop lying to his citizens be a good start. 

Click to expand...

C'mon you can do better. Try a bit of debate rather than glib comments. Your posts change direction as frequently as the politicians you chastise.


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon you can do better. Try a bit of debate rather than glib comments. Your posts change direction as frequently as the politicians you chastise.
		
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this is a thread about Boris though and he has been proved to be a habitual liar, and the last two announcements, on Money for 20,000 new Police officers and "new" money for the NHS have proved it again


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon you can do better. Try a bit of debate rather than glib comments. Your posts change direction as frequently as the politicians you chastise.
		
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OK if you want an different answer, I think he should resign and Parliament should ask EU for a delay, The Commons would then select a unified government representing all of the UK political parties.
As it is blindingly obvious that Brexit will cause massive harm to the UK, there should be a second indyref vote.
People are now better informed of the situation and that result would be accepted.
After that second vote we hold a general election so that the winning party will know that they have the support of the population.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK if you want an different answer, I think he should resign and Parliament should ask EU for a delay, The Commons would then select a unified government representing all of the UK political parties.
As it is blindingly obvious that Brexit will cause massive harm to the UK, there should be a second indyref vote.
People are now better informed of the situation and that result would be accepted.
After that second vote we hold a general election so that the winning party will know that they have the support of the population.
		
Click to expand...

So who would lead this unified government, Corbyn?  Oh dear, oh dearyme, ha, haaaa, haaaaaaaa, stop it, hahaha, Corbyn, haaaa, please stop it.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So who would lead this unified government, Corbyn?  Oh dear, oh dearyme, ha, haaaa, haaaaaaaa, stop it, hahaha, Corbyn, haaaa, please stop it.
		
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The holy trinity of Jezza the Red, Swinson the undemocratic and Jimmy the krank.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK if you want an different answer, I think he should resign and Parliament should ask EU for a delay.
		
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What would be the purpose of the delay? The EU have said that the WA cannot be renegotiated. Our MPs have rejected the WA 3 times. So what difference will a further delay make other than more uncertainty?

I think that we all know that when you say there should be a delay what you actually mean is you want to stop Brexit. 

How would you feel if Scotland voted for independence and then after three years of incompetent negotiations decided to ignore the result of the referendum and stayed as part of the UK?


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			whats Nicola got to do with it this is a thread about Borsi?
		
Click to expand...

Did you conveniently miss the bit where I said they all lie?


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did you conveniently miss the bit where I said they all lie?
		
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i don't think anyone would disagree with you about MP telling porkies, well some die hard Tory's maybe

but why bring Nichola up other than to just point score against Doon??


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't think anyone would disagree with you about MP telling porkies, well some die hard Tory's maybe

but why bring Nichola up other than to just point score against Doon??
		
Click to expand...

I don't need to score points against Doon. He does that without any help.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't need to score points against Doon. He does that without any help.
		
Click to expand...

#428.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The holy trinity of Jezza the Red, Swinson the undemocratic and Jimmy the krank.
		
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All of them a darn sight better option than a man who has actually been sacked from two jobs for being a liar and untrustworthy.
Being advised by someone who admits that his Brexit posters were not truthful  but the public fell for them.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			All of them a darn sight better option than a man who has actually been sacked from two jobs for being a liar and untrustworthy.
Being advised by someone who admits that his Brexit posters were not truthful  but the public fell for them.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you are in wind-up mode. Gawd help us if any of these and their cohorts get to run the country.


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm guessing you are in wind-up mode. Gawd help us if any of these and their cohorts get to run the country.
		
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TBH, Tom and Jerry could do a better job than the prev and currrent shower in no10


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## ger147 (Aug 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			TBH, Tom and Jerry could do a better job than the prev and currrent shower in no10
		
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Not so sure about that. Jerry seems like a very clever, resourceful wee guy but Tom strikes me as violent, slightly unhinged and totally obsessed with a single issue i.e. getting Jerry which he can't deliver.

Does Tom remind you of anyone??


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm guessing you are in wind-up mode. Gawd help us if any of these and their cohorts get to run the country.
		
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Hing oan.........I never said they were any good [well two of them at least] 
I just said they were a darn sight better than Johnson.
Mind you the carved owl sitting in my garden fits into that category as well.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 9, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1159846573095784448


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hing oan.........I never said they were any good [well two of them at least]
I just said they were a darn sight better than Johnson.
Mind you the carved owl sitting in my garden fits into that category as well.
		
Click to expand...

Ah but I bet your owl can't rotate it's head and face 360 while sitting still like politicians


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Ah but I bet your owl can't rotate it's head and face 360 while sitting still like politicians

Click to expand...

Corbyn doesn't need to turn his neck he just uses one of his many other faces.


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## robinthehood (Aug 10, 2019)




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## robinthehood (Aug 10, 2019)




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## Mudball (Aug 12, 2019)

You can see Boris is in full election mode.. a few millions here and a few billions there.. he has opened up all the taps.  Corbin must be hating BoJos guts for doing this..  

Well played BoJo


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## patricks148 (Aug 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			You can see Boris is in full election mode.. a few millions here and a few billions there.. he has opened up all the taps.  Corbin must be hating BoJos guts for doing this.. 

Well played BoJo
		
Click to expand...

yes i imagine, Jezza id fuming boris has been caught lying about the money they are going to spend, not to mention him planning on curbing civil liberties and chucking more people in prisons that are already full and well known that just chucking people in prison doesn't work


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm guessing you are in wind-up mode. Gawd help us if any of these and their cohorts get to run the country.
		
Click to expand...

This may be a wind up.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...o-independence-party-to-take-on-snp-1-4981043


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## Foxholer (Aug 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm guessing you are in wind-up mode. Gawd help us if any of these and their cohorts get to run the country.
		
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Surely you've worked out that WUM is DfT's 'default/permanent mode'!


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## Foxholer (Aug 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So over half the voters were 'stupid'...
		
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to believe that's correct!

But I'm also inclined to believe that applies 'across the board', not just to leavers!


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## Foxholer (Aug 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Stop lying to his citizens be a good start. 

Click to expand...

Surely 'interpreting' events in a particular way - and pushing that view - is a fundamental part of a 'good' politician's makeup!

That doesn't need to entail 'lying'. Nothing on the Red Bus was 'lies', simply not the 'full story'!


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm inclined to believe that's correct!

But I'm also inclined to believe that applies 'across the board', not just to leavers!
		
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And its going to get worse... the birth rate in the higher social economic groups has be falling for over a decade while the birth rate in the lowest SeG has been going up!


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## teetime75 (Aug 12, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yes i imagine, Jezza id fuming boris has been caught lying about the money they are going to spend, not to mention him planning on curbing civil liberties and chucking more people in prisons that are already full and well known that just chucking people in prison doesn't work

Click to expand...

It works if you chuck them in for long enough.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

teetime75 said:



			It works if you chuck them in for long enough.
		
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Got any actual academic evidence to back that up.


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## User62651 (Aug 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Got any actual academic evidence to back that up.
		
Click to expand...

Might be wrong but i read that as tongue in cheek but without any emojis so hard to tell - i.e if you never let them out they cant re-offend!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Might be wrong but i read that as tongue in cheek but without any emojis so hard to tell - i.e if you never let them out they cant re-offend!
		
Click to expand...

Actually being serious for once.
Norway seems to have the best criminal system so perhaps we should follow their example.
Mind you Norway seem to be best at everything at the moment [except income tax levels]


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## MegaSteve (Aug 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Actually being serious for once.
Norway seems to have the best criminal system so perhaps we should follow their example.
Mind you Norway seem to be best at everything at the moment [except income tax levels]
		
Click to expand...

The Norwegian "criminal system" completely failed identifying Breivik...
So, perhaps not the best example to follow...


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## User62651 (Aug 12, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The Norwegian "criminal system" completely failed identifying Breivik...
So, perhaps not the best example to follow...
		
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Don't think you can judge an entire system on one psychotic neo Nazi. The US criminal system is pretty tough but they haven't been able to identify countless mass killers in US since Breivik.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Don't think you can judge an entire system on one psychotic neo Nazi. The US criminal system is pretty tough but they haven't been able to identify countless mass killers in US since Breivik.
		
Click to expand...

It's wrong to compare Britain and Norway regarding criminal activity and prison systems. Highly populated countries like the UK have exponentially higher criminality that becomes exponentially more complicated to control.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			And its going to get worse... the birth rate in the higher social economic groups has be falling for over a decade while the birth rate in the lowest SeG has been going up!
		
Click to expand...

This will be the case when the lowest Seg are encouraged to have larger families by the benefit system and those in the higher Segs have to keep their families smaller due to tax and house prices.


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This will be the case when the lowest Seg are encouraged to have larger families by the benefit system and those in the higher Segs have to keep their families smaller due to tax and house prices.
		
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In the higher SeGs a couple tend to both work and so parenting is a major time and financial issue. Parents on benefits have the time and considerable help with School cost etc.  I know its unfair to generalise about those out of work but there are tranches of society that expect everything without doing anything for it. There is a real danger of a race to the bottom IMO.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Don't think you can judge an entire system on one psychotic neo Nazi. The US criminal system is pretty tough but they haven't been able to identify countless mass killers in US since Breivik.
		
Click to expand...

By the same token you can't be using a "criminal system" as an example of being ' better' when it has 'failed' as many as it did...


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

A review has been announced into HS2 that should report back by Autumn this year. Big news, Boris is anti it.

For those affected have many people actually moved out of their homes? I know compulsory purchase has happened on some, others took what was offered, but have many of those houses actually been bulldozed yet or theoretically could those residents buy them back?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A review has been announced into HS2 that should report back by Autumn this year. Big news, Boris is anti it.

For those affected have many people actually moved out of their homes? I know compulsory purchase has happened on some, others took what was offered, but have many of those houses actually been bulldozed yet or theoretically could those residents buy them back?
		
Click to expand...

At least two homes have been demolished near here... Not sure about others, down the lane, that were also compulsory purchased... Guessing the residents have relocated so probably not looking to move back...


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			At least two homes have been demolished near here... Not sure about others, down the lane, that were also compulsory purchased... Guessing the residents have relocated so probably not looking to move back...
		
Click to expand...

It's an odd one, if cancelled, in that you could have ghost villages for a spell. Should the original owners get first dabs on buying them? They may have lived there for years. Little communities were broken up and now they get to start again.

I don't have a problem with it being cancelled, don't throw good money after bad etc. Capacity may well need to be increased but this seemed a hugely expensive way of doing it, only benefiting a geographically small portion of the country.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's an odd one, if cancelled, in that you could have ghost villages for a spell. Should the original owners get first dabs on buying them? They may have lived there for years. Little communities were broken up and now they get to start again.

I don't have a problem with it being cancelled, don't throw good money after bad etc. Capacity may well need to be increased but this seemed a hugely expensive way of doing it, only benefiting a geographically small portion of the country.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect they'll make sort of high speed rail 2... By doing so could probably get away with not doing the expensive tunnelling they've agreed to in attempting to get neighbouring residents on side...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2019)

I read yesterday some more about BJs/DCs decision on immigration (vocalised by the Home Secretary a few weeks ago) - that decision being that there will be a complete and immediate end of freedom of movement into the UK after 31/10.

We remember the observations made at the time that such a cut-off was completely impractical - that it just could not be made to work - too many issues.  Lots of push back from BJ/PP - this is what is going to happen.  And of course what I read is that it is now NOT going to happen - that the ending of FoM will be phased in over some period yet tbd.  Legal issues we hear - complications and implications - not that simple...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ans-for-henry-viii-power-to-end-free-movement

The announcement seemed to keep under the radar and seemed to go somewhat under-reported in the Brexit-loving press and by Brexit loving commentators over the weekend - and not hearing anything today.  But maybe that's all part of the cunning plan.  Make the loud announcement and all who want immigration controlled cheered loudly.  In fact those who want it stopped completely or very severely cut cheered the loudest at this absolute stop after 31/10.  Boris is our man.

But the cynic in me says that BJ/DC/PP knew all along that it was impractical and probably illegal, and that they would quietly row-back - hoping few would notice.  But the job was done - as they had got the 'stop migration' Brexit Party voters on Boris's side.  It's what Boris wants - his thinking is with theirs - just the blasted 'judges', the elite, the establishment again stopping what Boris and The People want.

Or maybe Boris and Priti just didn't understand.  And they have put their own spin on what ends - that FoM ends - though practically and for the vast majority of EU27 citizens it does not end on 31/10.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read yesterday some more about BJs/DCs decision on immigration (vocalised by the Home Secretary a few weeks ago) - that decision being that there will be a complete and immediate end of freedom of movement into the UK after 31/10.

We remember the observations made at the time that such a cut-off was completely impractical - that it just could not be made to work - too many issues.  Lots of push back from BJ/PP - this is what is going to happen.  And of course what I read is that it is now NOT going to happen - that the ending of FoM will be phased in over some period yet tbd.  Legal issues we hear - complications and implications - not that simple...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ans-for-henry-viii-power-to-end-free-movement

The announcement seemed to keep under the radar and seemed to go somewhat under-reported in the Brexit-loving press and by Brexit loving commentators over the weekend - and not hearing anything today.  But maybe that's all part of the cunning plan.  Make the loud announcement and all who want immigration controlled cheered loudly.  In fact those who want it stopped completely or very severely cut cheered the loudest at this absolute stop after 31/10.  Boris is our man.

But the cynic in me says that BJ/DC/PP knew all along that it was impractical and probably illegal, and that they would quietly row-back - hoping few would notice.  But the job was done - as they had got the 'stop migration' Brexit Party voters on Boris's side.  It's what Boris wants - his thinking is with theirs - just the blasted 'judges', the elite, the establishment again stopping what Boris and The People want.

Or maybe Boris and Priti just didn't understand.  And they have put their own spin on what ends - that FoM ends - though practically and for the vast majority of EU27 citizens it does not end on 31/10.
		
Click to expand...

Will you ever get it ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„   Immigration needs controlling not stopping. We need to consider our genuine needs and allow people who meet those needs the visas that give them the appropriate residency.

Do you honestly believe after Brexit the UK government couldnt pass a new law to repeal free movement.  I am not convinced they would need to though as a no deal would crash us out over the cliff as we are constantly reminded. End of Europiean law in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Will you ever get it ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„   Immigration needs controlling not stopping. We need to consider our genuine needs and allow people who meet those needs the visas that give them the appropriate residency.

Do you honestly believe after Brexit the UK government couldnt pass a new law to repeal free movement.  I am not convinced they would need to though as a *no deal would crash us out over the cliff *as we are constantly reminded. End of Europiean law in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I have no doubts on any of that - especially *this*

But not hearing too much from PP or BJ about the about turn over FoM after 31/10.

IMO that is simply because the job is done.  Many potential Brexit Party voters support the Tories in a GE as a result of BJ and PP immigration policy in respect of FoM.  Especially now that it is 99% clear to me that Johnson has no real interest in engaging further with the EU on the backstop - and is now focussing on a GE before 31/10.  So Leave voting Brexit Party anti-immigration electorate now know the government's view on FoM - they might even think that it is still happening if they are not paying attention.  

Seems to me it's all just part of the DomCum plan for BJ and the Tories.

If this is all or in part the work of BJ then IMO the sooner we see the end of him as PM then so very much the better.  A disgrace to the office of PM of the United Kingdom - he is no more interested in uniting the nation than he is in making cardboard buses.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

Can't believe that he hasn't yet found the time to cancel HS2... I mean there can't be anything of more importance on his to do list...


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't believe that he hasn't yet found the time to cancel HS2... I mean there can't be anything of more importance on his to do list...
		
Click to expand...

He will when DomCum tells him to..


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Cumming & Johnson are so mistrusted by most of the thinking UK public that whenever BJ makes a statement they know there is a strong probably that he lying and second guess what they really want to do.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cumming & Johnson are so mistrusted by most of the thinking UK public that whenever BJ makes a statement they know there is a strong probably that he lying and second guess what they really want to do.
		
Click to expand...

Really????? don't think so.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cumming & Johnson are so mistrusted by most of the thinking UK public that whenever BJ makes a statement they know there is a strong probably that he lying and second guess what they really want to do.
		
Click to expand...

You do know that Corbyn is possibly the biggest back tracker in UK politics, always voted against anything EU, he is an EU sceptic. He cannot implement half his manifesto without leaving the EU in full. You are blinded


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cumming & Johnson are so mistrusted by most of the thinking UK public that whenever BJ makes a statement they know there is a strong probably that he lying and second guess what they really want to do.
		
Click to expand...

Well we knew what we were gong to get with BJ - a disingenuous, self-serving liar.  And what with Wormtongue DomCum whispering devious plans in his receptive and compliant ear we end up with the disgraceful state of affairs we find the country in.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			He will when DomCum tells him to..
		
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He'd better be quick about it... With a GE looming there's a lot of disgruntled constituents that need appeasing...


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## Beezerk (Sep 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			He'd better be quick about it... With a GE looming there's a lot of disgruntled constituents that need appeasing...
		
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Do you think a GE will happen though? Rumours are that Labour will bottle it and vote against a GE (surprise surprise) should BJ call one.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Do you think a GE will happen though? Rumours are that Labour will bottle it and vote against a GE (surprise surprise) should BJ call one.
		
Click to expand...

In all honesty my guess is about the same as anybody else's... Not sure anybody can honestly say for sure either way...

But, HS2 is mucking up the lives of many of BJ's constituents as well as those of us living in the constituency next door... Any pressure to get him to cancel is welcome...


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			In all honesty my guess is about the same as anybody else's... Not sure anybody can honestly say for sure either way...

But, HS2 is mucking up the lives of many of BJ's constituents as well as those of us living in the constituency next door... Any pressure to get him to cancel is welcome...
		
Click to expand...

He is launching a full review into HS2, I'm sure he'd be pretty short-sighted to cancel without first having heard all the facts


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

There is a reasonable chance that Labour might call Johnson's bluff (or whatever) and simply not call a vote of no confidence in the government - as Blair has advised.

Certainly Labour MP Mary Creagh interviewed last night on Newsnight was adamant that blocking No Deal was the primary objective - and she was most certainly not interested in playing along with Johnson's games.  And if you listen to what O'Donnell said - he said that Labour would fight a GE on Labour's terms - not Johnson's.  So whilst he said 'bring it on' - I am not sure _it _is before 31/10.  This evening and tomorrow will be interesting and I await Johnson's subsequent words of wisdom (as read from a DomCum script)


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			He is launching a full review into HS2, I'm sure he'd be pretty short-sighted to cancel without first having heard all the facts
		
Click to expand...

His constituents are still highly tee'd off with his total dereliction of action with regard the third runway... Really feel he needs to up his game and match action to his word...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			You do know that Corbyn is possibly the biggest back tracker in UK politics, always voted against anything EU, he is an EU sceptic. He cannot implement half his manifesto without leaving the EU in full. You are blinded
		
Click to expand...

No, I don't have any views on Corbyn except that he is unelectable in the UK and irrelevant to voters in Scotland.
Bit of a yesterday man for quite some time now.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			His constituents are still highly tee'd off with his total dereliction of action with regard the third runway... Really feel he needs to up his game and match action to his word...
		
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Hard to turn to more domestic matters when such a huge percentage of his and the government's time is consumed with Brexit, the quicker we get out the quicker we can get back to these sort of matters


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			His constituents are still highly tee'd off with his total dereliction of action with regard the third runway... Really feel he needs to up his game and match action to his word...
		
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Oh please tell me he could lose his seat.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I don't have any views on Corbyn except that he is unelectable in the UK and irrelevant to voters in Scotland.
Bit of a yesterday man for quite some time now.
		
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The SNP are irrelevant to voters in Scotland, refuse to accept the result of the 2014 referendum, refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Want to leave the UK to become independent and then sign up to the EU and its tangled web of laws and regulations. The SNP are a disgrace.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Hard to turn to more domestic matters when such a huge percentage of his and the government's time is consumed with Brexit, the quicker we get out the quicker we can get back to these sort of matters
		
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Constituents can be like elephants... They don't forget being crossed... The good people of Henley were pleased to see the back of him and, I suspect, many in Uxbridge won't shed any years for him either...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Not looking good for BJ's commons vote today.
Good chance he will now withdraw the vote.
Where does he go from there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			The SNP are irrelevant to voters in Scotland, refuse to accept the result of the 2014 referendum, refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Want to leave the UK to become independent and then sign up to the EU and its tangled web of laws and regulations. The SNP are a disgrace.
		
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It really makes me laugh when folk say that the SNP have refused to accept the 2016 referendum vote.
Just think about it for a second, I shall give you a clue....what does SNP stand for. 
BTW, polls predict a wipeout for Tories and Labour in Scotland if there is ever another UK GE.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



*The SNP are irrelevant to voters in Scotland*, refuse to accept the result of the 2014 referendum, refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Want to leave the UK to become independent and then sign up to the EU and its tangled web of laws and regulations. The SNP are a disgrace.
		
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What a weird statement when the S in SNP stands for Scottish; the SNP are the government in Scotland; and the SNP are the 3rd largest party in Westminster with their MPs gleaning nearly 1,000,000 Scottish votes (37%) in the 2017 election - and representing approx 1.6m of the Scottish electorate.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not looking good for BJ's commons vote today.
Good chance he will now withdraw the vote.
Where does he go from there.
		
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What Boris vote???

TODAY'S vote will be at the behest of the "rebels".


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It really makes me laugh when folk say that the SNP have refused to accept the 2016 referendum vote.
Just think about it for a second, I shall give you a clue....what does SNP stand for. 
BTW, polls predict a wipeout for Tories and Labour in Scotland if there is ever another UK GE.
		
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Yes it's the Scottish NATIONAL Party yet they want to leave the UK and sign away the sovereignty they claim to want to the EU, you are correct. It is laughable


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Also the Scottish referendum was 2014, not 2016


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What a weird statement when the S in SNP stands for Scottish; the SNP are the government in Scotland; and the SNP are the 3rd largest party in Westminster with their MPs gleaning nearly 1,000,000 Scottish votes (37%) in the 2017 election - and representing approx 1.6m of the Scottish electorate.
		
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It's a shame most Scottish SNP voters,ex-labour voters, are not too clued up on politics and cant see them for what they are


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Also the Scottish referendum was 2014, not 2016
		
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You mentioned both dates, I can understand 2014 but 2016 makes no sense.
I quoted 2016 in my reply.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			What Boris vote???

TODAY'S vote will be at the behest of the "rebels".
		
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True. 
The 'rebel alliance' does have quite ring to it though.
I suppose I must be one of them. I shall wear the badge with pride.

Looks like this almighty mucklefuddle is stepping up a gear.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You mentioned both dates, I can understand 2014 but 2016 makes no sense.
I quoted 2016 in my reply.
		
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You did quote 2016, however the people voted to stay in the UK and if the SNP were accepting of that they would also accept the result of the referendum the UK had to leave the EU. The SNP stand from a hypocritical position, they want independence from the UK but not the EU. Not sure how as an EU member you can truly be independent when you have another jurisdiction making laws for you and having to follow their rules


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 3, 2019)

The SNP do not respect the result of ANY vote, unless of course it's what they wanted. They are the MOST undemocratic party currently in the UK


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## ScienceBoy (Sep 3, 2019)

Boris has got to stick to it, super tough to negotiate any decent deal with Europe without the possibility of no deal exit. EU are not muppets and wonâ€™t budge.

We only have two options, which were the only viable two from the beginning.

No deal exit or revoke A50. But who is brave enough to take one of these through to completion?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			The SNP do not respect the result of ANY vote, unless of course it's what they wanted. They are the MOST undemocratic party currently in the UK
		
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Perhaps that is because they want to be out of the UK [hence being called the SNP].....which obviously translates into them doing a good job.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps that is because they want to be out of the UK [hence being called the SNP].....which obviously translates into them doing a good job.

Click to expand...

Out the UK to be independent but hop in to the EU to be truly non-independent. Laughable


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			It's a shame most Scottish SNP voters,ex-labour voters, are not too clued up on politics and cant see them for what they are
		
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That same charge could be aimed at the wider UK electorate in respect of something else


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That same charge could be aimed at the wider UK electorate in respect of something else
		
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Can you please stay away from this thread as well


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			Can you please stay away from this thread as well
		
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And now why would you want me to do that?  Is it cos I think Johnson is a lying, scheming, self-serving charlatan with Wormtongue at his ear.

I am sure that he will one day realise the error of his ways and repent.  Meanwhile I wish him no ill.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And now why would you want me to do that?  Is it cos I think Johnson is a lying, scheming, self-serving charlatan with Wormtongue at his ear.

I am sure that he will one day realise the error of his ways and repent.  *Meanwhile I wish him no ill.[*/QUOTE]

I'm sure he's relieved about that
		
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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps that is because they want to be out of the UK [hence being called the SNP].....which obviously translates into them doing a good job.

Click to expand...

But not representing the people who voted to stay in the UK. Admittedly they also voted to stay in the EU, but you know, you can't have everything, although it appears the Scots think they can.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			But not representing the people who voted to stay in the UK. Admittedly they also voted to stay in the EU, but you know, you can't have everything, although it appears the Scots think they can. 

Click to expand...

Would that be like Mr Johnson's 30th September 2016 words.  

From https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/07/boris-we-can-have-our-cake-and-eat-it/

_On the phrase â€˜hard Brexitâ€™ itself, Boris insisted: â€œI donâ€™t recognise this term._

_â€œWe are going to have a deal that works.â€_

_He also insisted we will get immigration controls back as well as continuing open trade with the EU._

_Mr Johnson told The Sun: *â€œOur policy is having our cake and eating it.*_

What's good for the goose is good for the gander?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

What an awful performance at his first QT by our new PM - and the first ever t lose his first three votes?

But today the right wing press have a go at Corbyn and ignore the shambles that was our PM yesterday.  And Leavers cheer him and jeer Corbyn.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What an awful performance at his first QT by our new PM - and the first ever t lose his first three votes?

But today the right wing press have a go at Corbyn and ignore the shambles that was our PM yesterday.  And Leavers cheer him and jeer Corbyn.
		
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That's all down to personal opinion though Hugh. The HoC is a bear pit during PM's QT and has been for years. YouTube has plenty of evidence of that.

As for Corbyn, I thought he performed reasonably well, as I would expect of any seasoned politician, but I thought he was a massive hypocrite all the way through, more so now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

What is a good performance at PMQ's? Is it the ability to humiliate someone more than they can humiliate you? Nothing constructive comes out of it, it bears no relevance to the job a person can do. Why not just put up a comedian who can make jibes and put down hecklers and leave the PM to get on with the actual job. PMQ's is an absolute waste of time, it doesn't serve the purpose it is supposed to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What is a good performance at PMQ's? Is it the ability to humiliate someone more than they can humiliate you? Nothing constructive comes out of it, it bears no relevance to the job a person can do. Why not just put up a comedian who can make jibes and put down hecklers and leave the PM to get on with the actual job. PMQ's is an absolute waste of time, it doesn't serve the purpose it is supposed to.
		
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Johnson was put in his box by Ian Blackford telling the new boy how PMQ's works.
'We ask the questions and you answer them'''.


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## Dando (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson was put in his box by Ian Blackford telling the new boy how PMQ's works.
'We ask the questions and you answer them'''.
		
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is that the same Blackford who wants Boris to uphold the result of the vote while doing everything he can to stop the result of a vote being upheld.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

And so we have Jo Johnson resigning because of the unresolvable tension between family and the national interest.   *The National Interest *

Even Johnson's own brother does not trust him - and believes the path the Johnson is pursuing is *against the national interest *- but does not want to embarrass BJ by forcing him to sack his own brother.  And as Minister for USR&I he would have been fully cognisant of the contents of Yellowhammer and other risk briefings.

And yet...the Sun *in England *chooses to have a picture of a chicken with Corbyn's head. 

Note that that is not the front page of the Scottish Sun.  Clearly Tony Gallagher realises that there is no point in pandering to English Nationalism in a Scottish newspaper - or maybe the editor of the Scottish Sun *knows *it.  They realise that Scottish readers haven't been so duped by the English anti-EU press to the extent that Gallagher clearly thinks their English readers have been.  Gallagher must think his English readers are stupid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's all down to personal opinion though Hugh. The HoC is a bear pit during PM's QT and has been for years. YouTube has plenty of evidence of that.

As for Corbyn, I thought he performed reasonably well, as I would expect of any seasoned politician, but I thought he was a massive hypocrite all the way through, more so now.
		
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Yes - I thought Corbyn did OK - and better than Johnson - but that is only because Johnson was so utterly dire...at times rambling and ranting almost incoherently as the words came tumbling out of his mouth and he gesticulated right, left and centre.  Our Prime Minster?

Having viewed Johnson's performances yesterday his brother must have reflected on things overnight and reached the conclusion that he has.

So one might reasonably deduce that JJs thinking was that it wasn't such a great performance...


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson was put in his box by Ian Blackford telling the new boy how PMQ's works.
'We ask the questions and you answer them'''.
		
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MP's don't ask questions, they make statements, go on rants. It is about points scoring, not actually holding the PM and govt to account. It is incredibly petty and no one comes out of it well, even your beloved SNP.

Corbyn started his time in opposition asking genuine questions but that has gone now as well and he is just as bad.

At some point soon they have to leave parliament as it gets a major refit. I sincerely hope that the place they move to is set out in a less adversarial fashion. The design of the chamber really does not help. It encourages yah boo politics and no party escapes with credit.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would that be like Mr Johnson's 30th September 2016 words. 

From https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/07/boris-we-can-have-our-cake-and-eat-it/

_On the phrase â€˜hard Brexitâ€™ itself, Boris insisted: â€œI donâ€™t recognise this term._

_â€œWe are going to have a deal that works.â€_

_He also insisted we will get immigration controls back as well as continuing open trade with the EU._

_Mr Johnson told The Sun: *â€œOur policy is having our cake and eating it.*_

What's good for the goose is good for the gander?
		
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And there will be a 'deal' that works because business and trade will continue - the world is not going to stop because of daft ego driven politicians and the Brussels mafia. Sure certain international regs will change and some costs will jump about and the city will cash in. So when the PM says he'll get a deal he's right even if its just WTO with a few bells and whistles.

He can claim, like all politicians do, that immigration is 'under control' because the metrics are so confused as to what is counted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			And there will be a 'deal' that works because business and trade will continue - the world is not going to stop because of daft ego driven politicians and the Brussels mafia. Sure certain international regs will change and some costs will jump about and the city will cash in. So when the PM says he'll get a deal he's right even if its just WTO with a few bells and whistles.

He can claim, like all politicians do, that immigration is 'under control' because the metrics are so confused as to what is counted.
		
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Quite right - though I don't think anybody ever said the world would come to an end - Armageddon will ensue - following No Deal.  And May's 10's of thousands nett immigration has been consigned by her party to the dustbin as the arrant nonsense and rubbish it always was - but OK - that was her attempt to keep Faragist Brextremists on board.

Actually my post was a simple response to Colonel Bogey's

_"...but you know, you can't have everything, although it appears the Scots think they can"_

And just noted that Johnson - now our PM - was claiming that indeed the UK *could *have everything when we have left the EU.  So not only the Scots think that (if indeed they do).


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

My gawd,that police speech was a total disaster, Benny Hill turns into Mr Bumble
I said to Lady Doon that the press now realise he is yesterday's man, she said that he never even became today's man


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I thought Corbyn did OK - and better than Johnson - but that is only because Johnson was so utterly dire...at times rambling and ranting almost incoherently as the words came tumbling out of his mouth and he gesticulated right, left and centre.  Our Prime Minster?

Having viewed Johnson's performances yesterday his brother must have reflected on things overnight and reached the conclusion that he has.

So one might reasonably deduce that JJs thinking was that it wasn't such a great performance...
		
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And as I said, that's your opinion. I didn't think Johnson was as bad as you say - "utterly dire..." That's your opinion.

Did Johnson's brother make the decision based on Johnson's performances or on political differences? And that one single sentence highlights your bias. You don't know do you....? You've deduced something from a starting position that isn't neutral. C'mon Hugh, you know as a PM that you break everything down to its starting point. Johnson isn't to be trusted but you can only have a weather eye based on mistrust. You have to rely on evidence of what happens now, not what might happen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

For those who missed it the Scottish Sun headline was     'Floppy Boris fails to get an election'


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 6, 2019)

Johnson visiting Aberdeen today to announce 'new' funding for Scottish farmers.
Aye right, It is only the Â£160 million that Gove stole from Scotland last year.
It is just lie after lie from this utterly shameless shower of arrogant yobs.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson visiting Aberdeen today to announce 'new' funding for Scottish farmers.
Aye right, It is only the Â£160 million that Gove stole from Scotland last year.
It is just lie after lie from this utterly shameless shower of arrogant yobs.
		
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Stole  from Scotland.   Thats a bit rich.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson visiting Aberdeen today to announce 'new' funding for Scottish farmers.
Aye right, It is only the Â£160 million that Gove stole from Scotland last year.
It is just lie after lie from this utterly shameless shower of arrogant yobs.
		
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According to the BBC "He will also visit a farm, days after the government revealed a Â£160m funding package for Scottish farmers. The move settled a long-running row over the distribution of the EU's Common Agricultural Policy payments across the UK". "And Mr Johnson will use his visit to Scotland to announce an additional Â£51.4m for Scottish farmers over the next two years".  

So it's not "only the Â£160 million that Gove stole" last year. Your anti-Boris, anti-Westminster bias shines through in everything you post. At best you have deliberately misrepresented the story, as it wasn't money that was stolen but was subject to dispute about how EU CAP payments should be distributed and is actually more than the Â£160 million. Some less charitable than me might say that it is just lie after lie from the utterly shameless, arrogant DfT.


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## gmc40 (Sep 6, 2019)

Looks like his trip to Leeds went well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And as I said, that's your opinion. I didn't think Johnson was as bad as you say - "utterly dire..." That's your opinion.

Did Johnson's brother make the decision based on Johnson's performances or on political differences? And that one single sentence highlights your bias. You don't know do you....? You've deduced something from a starting position that isn't neutral. C'mon Hugh, you know as a PM that you break everything down to its starting point. Johnson isn't to be trusted but you can only have a weather eye based on mistrust. You have to rely on evidence of what happens now, not what might happen.
		
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And I have to say that IMO his rambling speech yesterday on policing - in fact a thinly disguised GE launch speech - was awful - was it utterly dire?  Well I wouldn't be alone in thinking that if it was.  Trumpian in nature with the police cadets as a backdrop being used for political purposes, not good and wrong.  He looked knackered - and what's this nonsense about 'rather being dead in a ditch' rather than doing what he may well *have* to do.  Or maybe he'll just resign rather than have to do with the HoC will demand he do.

Yet still. I hear Leave voters seemingly oblivious or in complete denial over the arrogant and deluded nonsense and behaviour they are seeing and hearing from Johnson and the rest of the government day after day.

Desperate stuff from Johnson.  Soonest we have a GE after 31/10, hopefully with an extension in place, the better - to see the back of this charlatan the better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			the problems with your posts are that they are dire, biased, arrogant, deluded nonsense that add nothing to the debate as you continue to drone on about the same thing over and over again
		
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Biased?  Yes - as I think Leaving the EU is insane.  I'll very grudgingly accept something like May's deal - but No Deal - No IDeal (as Brenda from Bristol might say) - No Way.

But as this thread is about Johnson - I though Johnson was dire yesterday.  What's your thinking on how he did - as your response did nothing to address that point.


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## Dando (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Biased?  Yes - as I think Leaving the EU is insane.  I'll very grudgingly accept something like May's deal - but No Deal - No IDeal (as Brenda from Bristol might say) - No Way.

But as this thread is about Johnson - I though Johnson was dire yesterday.  What's your thinking on how he did - as your response did nothing to address that point.
		
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didn't watch him yesterday so cant comment


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## drdel (Sep 6, 2019)

He's being hung out to dry by the Remain group in the HoC. The same HoC who triggered the Art50 by a huge majority and then undermined the PM and kicked her out of office. The same MPs as part of the cohort who supported and placed Art 50 into Law now turn on Johnson for following through on the task they set the Government.

Hopefully he'll stick to his guns and not ask for an extension (with any hope the EU won't see the point anyway) since the new 'no deal' bill does not revoke the Art 50 the leave date of 31st Oct still stands.


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## robinthehood (Sep 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			..and there we have it..  Voted by nearly 100k toris and getting ready to take the UK out of EU at all cost by halloween.... presenting BoJo the PM.
I cant wait for the wise words that he is going to speak.   Will we get the 'smart, clever and wise' Boris or will he continue his BoJo the Buffoon Foreign Secretary role?  I am all excited.

Will he appoint May back as Brexit secretary... What will happen to the Bus?

Raising a toast to our glorious future
		
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The sooner he is gone the better for me.  He can take JRM with him too. An odius man who's only goal is to make enough people happy so he can stay in power and screw the rest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			didn't watch him yesterday so cant comment
		
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Well - please - before you criticise me for being biased in my criticism of Johnson yesterday, how's about you actually watch it - then tell us what you think.

And we hear that the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire has just said that Johnson was given OK to do a 5min speech in front of the police officers to launch the recruitment campaign - then OK to do 10mins with the press - *without *the police cadets. Johnson misled the Chief Constable over his intentions and/or simply hijacked the occasion for his own politics.

And it was an utter shambles - his apparently unprepared ramblings on wider matters being evidence of the fact that indeed he *was *unprepared but clearly felt he could just 'wing it' - as he was only supposed to do 5minutes on the recruitment campaign.

Will Johnson apologise?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - please - before you criticise me for being biased in my criticism of Johnson yesterday, how's about you actually watch it - then tell us what you think.

And we hear that the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire has just said that Johnson was given OK to do a 5min speech in front of the police officers to launch the recruitment campaign - then OK to do 10mins with the press - *without *the police cadets. Johnson misled the Chief Constable over his intentions and/or simply hijacked the occasion for his own politics.

And it was an utter shambles - his apparently unprepared ramblings on wider matters being evidence of the fact that indeed he *was *unprepared but clearly felt he could just 'wing it' - as he was only supposed to do 5minutes on the recruitment campaign.

Will Johnson apologise?
		
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You didn't like his speech, what a surprise


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## Dando (Sep 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You didn't like his speech, what a surprise
		
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apparently he's not keen on leaving the EU either but he doesn't like to mention it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You didn't like his speech, what a surprise
		
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Absolutely no surprise at all - he lived up to the very low expectations I have of him.  Actually - that's not really true - it was possibly worse than I might have expected.

But what about what he said and the fact that he misled the Chief Constable of his intentions - totally impressed by what he did? - OK with his deception?


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## Dando (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - please - before you criticise me for being biased in my criticism of Johnson yesterday, how's about you actually watch it - then tell us what you think.

And we hear that the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire has just said that Johnson was given OK to do a 5min speech in front of the police officers to launch the recruitment campaign - then OK to do 10mins with the press - *without *the police cadets. Johnson misled the Chief Constable over his intentions and/or simply hijacked the occasion for his own politics.

And it was an utter shambles - his apparently unprepared ramblings on wider matters being evidence of the fact that indeed he *was *unprepared but clearly felt he could just 'wing it' - as he was only supposed to do 5minutes on the recruitment campaign.

Will Johnson apologise?
		
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the comment about your bias posts wasn't just aimed at the Boris posts but in general


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 6, 2019)

What if there is no election and BJ goes back to the eu to negotiate but comes back on say Oct 31st with nowt better then TM did. HOC votes it down, as they should, after all they didn't like it when TM put it forward. Would we then be out according to the eu rules????


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 6, 2019)

Despite the fact we would then have two laws in place. One from the EU to say we're out and one from the UK to say "we cannot come out without a deal"? 

I'm proper confused


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 6, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			What if there is no election and BJ goes back to the eu to negotiate but comes back on say Oct 31st with nowt better then TM did. HOC votes it down, as they should, after all they didn't like it when TM put it forward. Would we then be out according to the eu rules????
		
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If they don't agree to an extension and the HoC bins off the TM deal again then yes is the answer. Can the TM deal even be brought back again? I thought Bercow had stopped that unless it was significantly different.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

As I understand it, the new law that they are bringing in says that the PM must ask for an extension unless a deal has been agreed by 19th October. What would happen if Boris resigned at midnight on 18th October? We would then have no PM to go to EU to ask for the extension. The conservatives would then have to run a leadership election. Can the opposition bring a vote of no confidence in a government with no PM. If they can I assume that the opposition would then desperately try to form an interim government with Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and Plaid. Would they have enough time between the result of the no confidence vote and 31st October to form the interim government and for the acting PM to go to the EU to ask for the extension?


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## User62651 (Sep 6, 2019)

seen on twitter -


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## drdel (Sep 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I understand it, the new law that they are bringing in says that the PM must ask for an extension unless a deal has been agreed by 19th October. What would happen if Boris resigned at midnight on 18th October? We would then have no PM to go to EU to ask for the extension. The conservatives would then have to run a leadership election. Can the opposition bring a vote of no confidence in a government with no PM. If they can I assume that the opposition would then desperately try to form an interim government with Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and Plaid. Would they have enough time between the result of the no confidence vote and 31st October to form the interim government and for the acting PM to go to the EU to ask for the extension?
		
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I think BJ has stated he will not ask for an extension. Varadkar has announced they will have no border checks if a No Deal happens so BJ may have leverage for the 17th. It appears that Macron and some in Germany consider another extension will solve nothing so it not a certain conclusion since all 27 must agree. If MP's can't get the PM to revoke Art 50 and EU runs the clock down it appears the 31st still becomes the watershed.

He may yet fight another day.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think BJ has stated he will not ask for an extension. Varadkar has announced they will have no border checks if a No Deal happens so BJ may have leverage for the 17th. It appears that Macron and some in Germany consider another extension will solve nothing so it not a certain conclusion since all 27 must agree. If MP's can't get the PM to revoke Art 50 and EU runs the clock down it appears the 31st still becomes the watershed.

He may yet fight another day.
		
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AAAHHHH so BJ's goading of Labour and the rest for an election has got them all in a tizz, so they will refuse it. Bj can't get a deal, the whole thing swirls around the clock ticks down and we're out by default? Yes?


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## drdel (Sep 6, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			AAAHHHH so BJ's goading of Labour and the rest for an election has got them all in a tizz, so they will refuse it. Bj can't get a deal, the whole thing swirls around the clock ticks down and we're out by default? *Yes*?
		
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I think that's right since the Art 50 is in UK law (so would have to be cancelled) and the EU stated the that they would agree a short extension to the 31st - during that additional time nothing has materially changed. Whether the EU will want the UK's cash more than the future hassle and the Brexiteer MEPs in Brussels I'm not sure.


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## User62651 (Sep 6, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			AAAHHHH so BJ's goading of Labour and the rest for an election has got them all in a tizz, so they will refuse it. Bj can't get a deal, the whole thing swirls around the clock ticks down and we're out by default? *Yes?*

Click to expand...

No but maybe just yes!

Who knows, Boris may get his way in time, very hard to predict any outcome with all the twists and turns, but if he does it must be by chance/luck and not design. There is no way what's gone down so far this week is all planned by PM and team, no way. They all seem to be just rolling with it this week, reactive not proactive.

Legislation will likely be in place to stop leaving 31/10 unless Boris has a deal agreed before that and he confirmed as much in Aberdeenshire this morning saying 'ok no GE so I'll get a deal'.

EU refusing an extension seems the only way he can get us out with a No Deal by Halloween. I think that's unlikely but it is possible. 

If an extension is granted where that would leave him after all the '31st do or die' or 'I'd rather be dead in a ditch' rhetoric? - untenable position surely?


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No but maybe just yes!

Who knows, Boris may get his way in time, very hard to predict any outcome with all the twists and turns, but if he does it must be by chance/luck and not design. There is no way what's gone down so far this week is all planned by PM and team, no way. They all seem to be just rolling with it this week, reactive not proactive.

Legislation will likely be in place to stop leaving 31/10 unless Boris has a deal agreed before that and he confirmed as much in Aberdeenshire this morning saying 'ok no GE so I'll get a deal'.

EU refusing an extension seems the only way he can get us out with a No Deal by Halloween. I think that's unlikely but it is possible.

If an extension is granted where that would leave him after all the '31st do or die' or 'I'd rather be dead in a ditch' rhetoric? - untenable position surely?
		
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I agree with all but the last paragraph.

While that was certainly his rhetoric, I'm almost certain he'll gloss over that 'defeat' in true BJ (and many other politicians) style!


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## User62651 (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I agree with all but the last paragraph.

While that was certainly his rhetoric, I'm almost certain he'll gloss over that 'defeat' in true BJ (and many other politicians) style!
		
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But he'll have Farage in full on assault then.

Maybe he'll say 'oops I meant Halloween 2020'.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think BJ has stated he will not ask for an extension. Varadkar has announced they will have no border checks if a No Deal happens so BJ may have leverage for the 17th. It appears that Macron and some in Germany consider another extension will solve nothing so it not a certain conclusion since all 27 must agree. If MP's can't get the PM to revoke Art 50 and EU runs the clock down it appears the 31st still becomes the watershed.

He may yet fight another day.
		
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My point was more what would the process be if Boris doesn't get a deal and were to resign. What are the possible outcomes if he goes on 18th/19th rather than ask for the extension as this new law requires. Is there time for anything to be done with no PM to ask for the extension and can they have a vote of no confidence if there's no PM? If they can't hold a no confidence vote then they can't take control to try to form an interim government to ask for the delay themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely no surprise at all - he lived up to the very low expectations I have of him.  Actually - that's not really true - it was possibly worse than I might have expected.

But what about what he said and the fact that he misled the Chief Constable of his intentions - totally impressed by what he did? - OK with his deception?
		
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A politician misleading people!  Surely not.


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## Twire (Sep 6, 2019)

The Brexit threads reopened, all brexit talk over there please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If they don't agree to an extension and the HoC bins off the TM deal again then yes is the answer. Can the TM deal even be brought back again? I thought Bercow had stopped that unless it was significantly different.
		
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We have a GE and whoever wins can bring it back - or a tweaked version of is.  Might even be able to bring it back in the next session of parliament.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A politician misleading people!  Surely not.
		
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And so as expected not a tweet of criticism of BJ - just a load of whatabootery - which is meaningless as we are talking specifically about Johnson our Prime Minister - not just any old politician. 

A Prime Minister that is asking us to TRUST him as he takes us on the magical mystery tour that is No Deal - and Leavers such as Richard Littlejohn in The Sun actually *celebrate *his lying because it annoys Remain voters - really?


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## IanM (Sep 6, 2019)

Poor old Boris!

STOP THE COUP!!!
PEOPLES' VOTE!!

*ok chaps, let's have an election*.......                 Nooooooo thanks. 

No pleasing some folk.


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## Dando (Sep 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Poor old Boris!

STOP THE COUP!!!
PEOPLES' VOTE!!

*ok chaps, let's have an election*.......                 Nooooooo thanks.

No pleasing some folk. 

Click to expand...

But remember itâ€™s only Boris who lies! ðŸ˜‚


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## drdel (Sep 6, 2019)

MPs don't lie but sometimes they "miss speak"


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

Can't help but think this every time I see Corbyn now............




EDIT - apologies, posted in wrong thread.


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## User62651 (Sep 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Poor old Boris!

STOP THE COUP!!!
PEOPLES' VOTE!!

*ok chaps, let's have an election*.......                 Nooooooo thanks.

No pleasing some folk. 

Click to expand...

Good try.
Johnson's been utterly played, tells us he doesn't want a GE but calls one anyway after he's just sacked his own MPs. Opposiiton don't dance immediately to his tune and suddenly Corbyn's a chicken. Couldn't make it up. 
The GE will come this year, that's pretty soon. 

You all know BJ got boxed in and cant do anything else. Desperate leadership.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Good try.
Johnson's been utterly played, tells us he doesn't want a GE but calls one anyway after he's just sacked his own MPs. Opposiiton don't dance immediately to his tune and suddenly Corbyn's a chicken. Couldn't make it up.
The GE will come this year, that's pretty soon.

You all know BJ got boxed in and cant do anything else. Desperate leadership.
		
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Borisâ€™ plan was pretty simple, easy to rumble. Keep him in an play him like a tool that he is.
Corbyn isnâ€™t a chicken, he is finally taking the correct advice. His party need to come to a consensus of opinion, they need to decide and those who donâ€™t agree should leave. 
At the moment the only consistent parties have been the SNP and the Lib Demâ€™s and Farage â€˜ s bunch. Hopefully the electorate will realise and stop voting for people because they have always voted that way.


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## Hobbit (Sep 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			My point was more what would the process be if Boris doesn't get a deal and were to resign. What are the possible outcomes if he goes on 18th/19th rather than ask for the extension as this new law requires. Is there time for anything to be done with no PM to ask for the extension and can they have a vote of no confidence if there's no PM? If they can't hold a no confidence vote then they can't take control to try to form an interim government to ask for the delay themselves.
		
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That's an interesting question. Don't forget that the Tories don't have a majority now. The Queen may ask Corbyn to form a government.


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## JamesR (Sep 6, 2019)

Why is Boris so desperate for an election?
He didnâ€™t want one, then he does, and now heâ€™s almost pleading with Corbyn to have one.
I doubt he wants one out of altruism!


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Why is Boris so desperate for an election?
He didnâ€™t want one, then he does, and now heâ€™s almost pleading with Corbyn to have one.
I doubt he wants one out of altruism!
		
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Be fair, the whole of the Labour front bench have been screaming for one in the last 6 months.


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## JamesR (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be fair, the whole of the Labour front bench have been screaming for one in the last 6 months.
		
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That wasnâ€™t the question.
Boris doesnâ€™t want one because Labour do!
Why does he suddenly, and so desperately, want one?


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## drdel (Sep 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



*Why is Boris so desperate for an election?*
He didnâ€™t want one, then he does, and now heâ€™s almost pleading with Corbyn to have one.
I doubt he wants one out of altruism!
		
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He has/had little choice when his own party members continued playing the games started under TM and they lost the referendum they thought they'd win.


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

In the end the bloke can't win. Spent the first couple of months being berated and having no mandate to be PM because he wasn't voted in by "the people " by members of the forum, now gives them what they want and their still not happy.

Let's face it, we all know it's all to do with the dark arts of politics and tactics, who's to say he really does want one  and he's just saying it to show up Labour and the rest who have been demanding one.


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## JamesR (Sep 6, 2019)

I hardly think that being berated on the forum will have made him change his mind...and I feel if anyone is being shown up itâ€™s him not labourâ€™s front bench. They seem seem happy to have a GE when they want it, not when Boris wants it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I hardly think that being berated on the forum will have made him change his mind...and I
		
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That's disappointing


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I hardly think that being berated on the forum will have made him change his mind...and I feel if anyone is being shown up itâ€™s him not labourâ€™s front bench. They seem seem happy to have a GE when they want it, not when Boris wants it.
		
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Are you saying that Corbyn was lying 2 weeks ago when he said we need a GE. Well I never.


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## JamesR (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Are you saying that Corbyn was lying 2 weeks ago when he said we need a GE. Well I never.
		
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I donâ€™t know that heâ€™s now saying he doesnâ€™t want one. But, like Johnson, he wants it on his teamâ€™s terms


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## JamesR (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			That's disappointing
		
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Yeah, I donâ€™t think we have that much power...


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## harpo_72 (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In the end the bloke can't win. Spent the first couple of months being berated and having no mandate to be PM because he wasn't voted in by "the people " by members of the forum, now gives them what they want and their still not happy.

Let's face it, we all know it's all to do with the dark arts of politics and tactics, who's to say he really does want one  and he's just saying it to show up Labour and the rest who have been demanding one.
		
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No subtle tactics ... close the house, try and push an election when negotiating should be happening.. hello no deal.
Who wants to inherit that .. it could be great it could be horrific and who ever is in power will always be remembered. 
Too risky ..


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's an interesting question. Don't forget that the Tories don't have a majority now. The Queen may ask Corbyn to form a government.
		
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I think that there might also be a problem with the wording of the new law. It instructs "the Prime Minister" to ask the EU for an extension. If Boris resigns we don't have a PM to ask for the extension. Not sure how quickly another PM can be put in place.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that there might also be a problem with the wording of the new law. It instructs "the Prime Minister" to ask the EU for an extension. If Boris resigns we don't have a PM to ask for the extension. Not sure how quickly another PM can be put in place.
		
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Exactly.
Boris was, he says, negotiating a deal , saying he had a good bargaining chip of no deal in the background. Without it, he wouldn't get any concession from the EU.
Corbin , not naively but snidely, demands to know what negotiations have taken place, knowing that you do not reveal such things in public. Boris did not reveal anything. Then Corbin has the cheek to think he's scored a point.
Boris is faced with a vote by the House, scuppering his intentions , and promise to the nation, that he will come out by 31 October.
He anticipates rightly that he will lose the vote and when he does he knows the only way to fulfil his policy is to make a law overturning the one just being made by his opponents.
And the only way he can do that is to have a G E and have enough MPs behind him to pass it.
The first attempt to get the G E is scuppered by Corbin et al,  because they know that too.
Boris could propose a bill for a G E which would need only a one vote majority.
However the opponents are now going to law to get Boris to ask for an extension , which he is vowing not to do.
He is in a corner, obviously, so, to my mind, all he can do is tell his party and others to back his bill, or he will resign and thus there is a chance for Corbin to be called to form a a Government. 
Do they want to gamble that Corbin cannot, thus precipitating a G E,  - or not?
I think Boris , being where he is, *would* gamble that he won't (and thus get his G E.)
If it were that, or be sent to Brussels against my will and  lose all credibility with the nation, what would you do?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think that's right since the Art 50 is in UK law (so would have to be cancelled) and the EU stated the that they would agree a short extension to the 31st - during that additional time nothing has materially changed. Whether the EU will want the UK's cash more than the future hassle and the Brexiteer MEPs in Brussels I'm not sure.
		
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Iâ€™d be surprised if they donâ€™t take the cash.


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## robinthehood (Sep 7, 2019)




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## harpo_72 (Sep 7, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly.
Boris was, he says, negotiating a deal , saying he had a good bargaining chip of no deal in the background. Without it, he wouldn't get any concession from the EU.
Corbin , not naively but snidely, demands to know what negotiations have taken place, knowing that you do not reveal such things in public. Boris did not reveal anything. Then Corbin has the cheek to think he's scored a point.
Boris is faced with a vote by the House, scuppering his intentions , and promise to the nation, that he will come out by 31 October.
He anticipates rightly that he will lose the vote and when he does he knows the only way to fulfil his policy is to make a law overturning the one just being made by his opponents.
And the only way he can do that is to have a G E and have enough MPs behind him to pass it.
The first attempt to get the G E is scuppered by Corbin et al,  because they know that too.
Boris could propose a bill for a G E which would need only a one vote majority.
However the opponents are now going to law to get Boris to ask for an extension , which he is vowing not to do.
He is in a corner, obviously, so, to my mind, all he can do is tell his party and others to back his bill, or he will resign and thus there is a chance for Corbin to be called to form a a Government.
Do they want to gamble that Corbin cannot, thus precipitating a G E,  - or not?
I think Boris , being where he is, *would* gamble that he won't (and thus get his G E.)
If it were that, or be sent to Brussels against my will and  lose all credibility with the nation, what would you do?
		
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Boris is where Boris is, due to his own arrogance and incompetence. 
The thought of a no deal is unpalatable to the majority and that includes leavers and remainers.
With respect to his negotiations, they are as poor as his strategy ... the bloke is a blustering buffoon, you need to put your money on another person. An extension would give you that opportunity.
With respect to an election youâ€™re assuming that the Tories will get in with a majority, so did May, and she then became dependent on the DUP and Arlene made a load of wedge. 
The likely outcome will be a Brexit party trying to make a government with either the Tories or Labour (yeah sounds highly unlikely but Farage is all ego). 
Overall the mess will still be present. The arguments will continue, but Europe will still be laughing. 

If we have a GE it should be primarily about the Brexit position - leave no deal / whatever or leave with a deal or remain. I donâ€™t want a candidate that wants to leave but is part of a remain party or vice versa, I want clarity of position.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 7, 2019)

Itâ€™s worth remembering what the former editor of the Telegraph opined on Depfeffel:


â€œThere is room for debate about whether he is a scoundrel or mere rogue, but not much about his moral bankruptcy, rooted in a contempt for truth. We canâ€™t predict what a Johnson government will do, because its prospective leader has not got around to thinking about this. But his premiership will almost certainly reveal a contempt for rules, precedent, order and stability. Dignity still matters in public office, and Johnson will never have it.

Yet his graver vice is cowardice, reflected in a willingness to tell any audience, whatever he thinks most likely to please, heedless of the inevitability of its contradiction an hour later. Like many showy personalities, he is of weak character. Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade. Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him. I have a hunch that Johnson will come to regret securing the prize for which he has struggled so long, because the experience of the premiership will lay bare his absolute unfitness for it.â€

Max Hastings, 24th June 2019.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2019)

Brit sense of humour ..


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

I see that Depfeffel will defy convention and precedent and stand a candidate against the speaker of the house.

Hope the lovely folk of Buckingham tell Boris to get mullered.  They voted remain so one would hope so.


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## Reemul (Sep 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Boris is where Boris is, due to his own arrogance and incompetence.
The thought of a no deal is unpalatable to the majority and that includes leavers and remainers.
		
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You say this like it is correct.

It seems the majority of leavers would take a no deal over a remain.

No one has a majority on anything unfortunately but every side likes to say they have a majority.

If anyone had a proper majority on anything it would all be over, they don't and it is not.

Even the public like bullshitting each other over Brexit, everyone is as bad as everyone else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2019)

And so it appears that our PM is not coping too well with the pressure of being PM.  But am I surprised? Or do I remember how Johnson reacted when put under pressure by Andrew Neil in his interview during the Tory Party Leadership election.  Yes I do.  By getting petulantly and childishly aggressive and pointing of finger as he struggled...to know what Para 5(c0 of Gatt 24 was about.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...il-tests-boris-johnson-s-knowledge-of-gatt-24

And yet - it seems to make not it jot of difference as he continues in the same vein (worse in fact as his arrogance and contempt of parliament grows) and a large part of 33% of the electorate must have their head buried in the sand - not hearing or seeing the words and actions of our Prime Minister - or hearing and just choosing to ignore them.

What was it that Trump said about HIS 33% - his Loyal People?






And so it seems with Johnson and breaking the law.

Truly desperate times

If there is to be any chance of reconciliation in this country the first step has to be that Johnson goes - and he takes with him his Wormtongue.

Where each 'side' sees only _Them _being _Wrong - _and_ Us _being _Right  - _we have to have honestly and realisation that there actually needs to be just one _Us - _and that requires us all to appreciate that in the other's Wrong there is Right - whether we like it or not.

And we (myself included) need to start recognising and accepting that; we need a leader to tell us that - and that leader cannot be one such as Johnson as he has too much skin in his 31/10 exit game.  For without it there can be little or no reconciliation - and my God we need reconciliation or this country - to get back to a position of Us all recognising and accepting the right and wrong in both sides.  Getting rid of Them and Us - there can only be one Us - and that is all of us.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 8, 2019)

Reemul said:



			You say this like it is correct.

It seems the majority of leavers would take a no deal over a remain.

No one has a majority on anything unfortunately but every side likes to say they have a majority.

If anyone had a proper majority on anything it would all be over, they don't and it is not.

Even the public like bullshitting each other over Brexit, everyone is as bad as everyone else.
		
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Think you have missed the point, there will be a very low percentage of remainers wanting to leave with no deal .. so add the remainers wanting at least a deal and the percentage of leavers wanting a deal .. and that gives you your majority. 

Unless of cause your saying all leavers want no deal ?? Which is not the consensus of opinion.


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## bladeplayer (Sep 8, 2019)

Hard to have an agreement with EU on a deal when parliment cant even agree with each other .
Currently UK are a laughing stock . (Sorry but thats the outsiders view) when u hear interviews from politicians or public its so obvious no one knew the facts before the vote in 2016 . There were lies and scare mongering on both sides . The uk is now suffering becaue of it . Boris's team has not been offering a deal idea or suggesrion at all . Hes been hoping his strong stance on no deal would scare the EU crowd into change . 1 thing that was said will not b changed is the back stop . He comes in with it must b changed or no deal. Realy ? The border  tho its on our little island  is been cobsidered as a border betwen NI & RoI  .  It is in reality a border between uk and a EU member country   ..
Businesses need this to be sorted . Uk and EU need to draw up a draft of reality consequences of a BREXIT  an honest detailed writ of what WILL happen . Then post to every household in uk and have a 2nd vote . On facts . No lies and scaremongering


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## IainP (Sep 8, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Hard to have an agreement with europe on a deal when parliment cant even agree with each other .
Currently UK are a laughing stock . (Sorry but thats the outsiders view) when u hear interviews from politicians or public its so obvious no one knew the facts before the vote in 2016 . There were lies and scare mongering on both sides . The uk is now suffering becaue of it . Boris's team has not been offering a deal idea or suggesrion at all . Hes been hoping his strong stance on no deal would scare the euro crowd into change . 1 thing that was said will not b changed is the back stop . He comes in with it must b changed or no deal. Realy ? The border  tho its on our little island  is been cobsidered as a border betwen NI & RoI  .  It is in reality a border between uk and europe  ..
Businesses need this to be sorted . Uk and europe need to draw up a draft of reality consequences of a BREXIT  an honest detailed writ of what WILL happen . Then post to every household in uk and have a 2nd vote . On facts . No lies and scaremongering
		
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 3+ years in (and not just you, see it on tv, hear it on the radio) - think you have "Europe" and "EU" mixed up.
I was in Europe 5 years ago, am today, and expect to be in 5 years time - whatever things the politicians and bureaucrats dream up ðŸ‘


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## bladeplayer (Sep 8, 2019)

IainP said:



			3+ years in (and not just you, see it on tv, hear it on the radio) - think you have "Europe" and "EU" mixed up.
I was in Europe 5 years ago, am today, and expect to be in 5 years time - whatever things the politicians and bureaucrats dream up ðŸ‘
		
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 apologies im not sure what u mean by me having europe and eu mixed up ..


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			apologies im not sure what u mean by me having europe and eu mixed up ..
		
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We don't have deals with Europe, we have deals with European countries within the EU.


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## IainP (Sep 8, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			apologies im not sure what u mean by me having europe and eu mixed up ..
		
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Okay. Expect the numbers can be interpreted/argued a little, but a quick search gives :
"Currently, 22 countries located in the continent of Europe, are not part of the European Union. "


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## bladeplayer (Sep 8, 2019)

IainP said:



			Okay. Expect the numbers can be interpreted/argued a little, but a quick search gives :
"Currently, 22 countries located in the continent of Europe, are not part of the European Union. "
		
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ah ok yea i apologise for lose use of europe .. i should b using EU .. got ya now .. as far as i know its not possible for uk to leave Europe . But yes i was incorrect in terminology .


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not quirte!

We don't have deals with Europe, we have deals with the EU, therefore with countries within the EU.
		
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Not sure what a quirte is but I'm sure you can put me right.


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## bladeplayer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We don't have deals with Europe, we have deals with European countries within the EU.
		
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 again apologies i should have bn more precise in terminology ..


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We don't have deals with Europe, we have deals with European countries within the EU.
		
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IainP said:



			Okay. Expect the numbers can be interpreted/argued a little, but a quick search gives :
"Currently, 22 countries located in the continent of Europe, are not part of the European Union. "
		
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We may also have 'deals' through the EU, with other European (and elsewhere) countries not in the EU.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure what a quirte is but I'm sure you can put me right.
		
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Post amended! I was too keen to get back to watching Nadal adjust his underwear and check his facial features! Though I hardly think YOU shood (sic) take on the role of speling (sic) polce (sic)!


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## bladeplayer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure what a quirte is but I'm sure you can put me right.
		
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  ðŸ˜•ðŸ˜• cant get a shakey head smiley ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171042241084870657
Does this man really lead our nation ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ What a state


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171042241084870657
Does this man really lead our nation ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ What a state
		
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Looks like he got as big a stuffing out of Varadkar as he has had from Parliament.


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## Kellfire (Sep 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171042241084870657
Does this man really lead our nation ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ What a state
		
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The Athena comment is brilliant and Boris had no idea he was being insulted.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2019)

Johnson looked like a pricked balloon in the HoC last night.
That Tory front bench, gawd help us, surely the worst in political history.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson looked like a pricked balloon in the HoC last night.
That Tory front bench, gawd help us, surely the worst in political history.
		
Click to expand...

He did look a bit of a glumster - apart from when he was waving his arms around and playing to the (Tory backbench ) audience with his bullish bluster as he does.

On the Tory front bench - looking at them at one point I think we had MGove, PPatel, KKwarteng, DRabb, JRMogg, NMorgan, SJavid and TVilliers.  Good grief.  No point in Labour front bench whatabootery - it's the Tories who are in 'government'.

At one point BJ was squeezed between Villiers and Morgan - and looked less than either.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apart from when he was waving his arms around and playing to the (Tory backbench ) audience as he does.

On the Tory front bench - looking at them at one point I think we had MGove, PPatel, KKwarteng, DRabb, JRMogg, NMorgan, SJavid and TVilliers.  Good grief.  No point in Labour front bench whatabootery -* it's the Tories who are in 'government'.*

Click to expand...

But probably shouldn't/wouldn't be if it weren't for the Labour front bench.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But probably shouldn't/wouldn't be if it weren't for the Labour front bench.
		
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Well it might be uncomfortable for them - but Johnson and his crew can stew in their own juice for a bit more given the chaos and mess we are in, and that they initiated under Cameron, and perpetuated under May - before Johnson decided to up the ante - and that has worked well...

Complain all they might like about the opposition not playing their GE game - but for as long as they fail to accept their own responsibilities for this and continue to play games - then why on earth should the opposition parties help them out of their discomfort and predicament.

The electorate is supposed to wait 5yrs for an election - we can wait another 6weeks...or whatever


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## drdel (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well it might be uncomfortable for them - but Johnson and his crew can stew in their own juice for a bit more given the chaos and mess we are in, and that they initiated under Cameron, and perpetuated under May - before Johnson decided to up the ante - and that has worked well...

Complain all they might like about the opposition not playing their GE game - but for as long as they fail to accept their own responsibilities for this and continue to play games - then why on earth should the opposition parties help them out of their discomfort and predicament.

The electorate is supposed to wait 5yrs for an election - we can wait another 6weeks...or whatever
		
Click to expand...

But businesses want closure ASAP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			But businesses want closure ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they do.  Pity that not that long ago Johnson has spoken in a rather less than complimentary way about concerns of business.  Besides, does Johnson not continue to plonk concerns raised by business and industry representatives into the Project Fear bucket.

Situation would not have risen for business had the Tories and such as Johnson, Gove and Raab in particular not triggered this mess - this terrible uncertainly.


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course they do.  Pity that not that long ago Johnson has spoken in a rather less than complimentary way about concerns of business.  Besides, does Johnson not continue to plonk concerns raised by business and industry representatives into the Project Fear bucket.

Situation would not have risen for business had the Tories and such as Johnson, Gove and Raab in particular not triggered this mess - this terrible uncertainly.
		
Click to expand...

Who is perpetuating the uncertainty? Boris for saying Oct 31st, "do or die," or those that want keep kicking the can down the road?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Who is perpetuating the uncertainty? Boris for saying Oct 31st, "do or die," or those that want keep kicking the can down the road?
		
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Those who cannot in all conscience support an Exit from the EU without a deal - taken there by a reckless, cynical and clueless (about life after) government - into a situation that they consider to be very likely significantly damaging to the country and their constituents.

And surely if all is going to be OK and business believes that they are being told all is going to be OK - then business would make decisions on that basis.  That they are not, suggests to me that business does not believe that all will be OK - or they think that there will be a big difference between the business environment in the event of a step-change (as it will be) No Deal and that coming about through a managed deal.

As it happens I think that Johnson might fold and go for a deal that has a Irish Sea EU/UK trade border.  

He will have seen security briefings on the factors/scenarios giving rise to an increase in border tensions - and if we leave without a deal - and notwithstanding any 'invisible' border controls - the fact of the Irish economy and Irish people being very badly hit by the actions of the UK (as the repubican hardliners will see it) - might be one of these.


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Those who cannot in all conscience support an Exit from the EU without a deal - taken there by a reckless, cynical and clueless (about life after) government - into a situation that they consider to be very likely significantly damaging to the country and their constituents.

And surely if all is going to be OK and business believes that they are being told all is going to be OK - then business would make decisions on that basis.  That they are not, suggests to me that business does not believe that all will be OK - or they think that there will be a big difference between the business environment in the event of a step-change (as it will be) No Deal and that coming about through a managed deal.

As it happens I think that Johnson might fold and go for a deal that has a Irish Sea EU/UK trade border. 

He will have seen security briefings on the factors/scenarios giving rise to an increase in border tensions - and if we leave without a deal - and notwithstanding any 'invisible' border controls - the fact of the Irish economy and Irish people being very badly hit by the actions of the UK (as the repubican hardliners will see it) - might be one of these.
		
Click to expand...

Who the hell is writing your script? John Bercow or that other idiot, O'Brien?

And you know all these things because you've spoken to your mate down the pub and your French barber?

Business don't want any barriers to trade whatsoever. The only way to achieve that is Remain. Of course they're going to issue dire predictions. It has sod all to do with cliff edge and crash out. Its all to do with their margins and has nothing to do with British politics and respecting the electorate or any particular govt.

We've done it to death, the bumps in the road and your unicorns running up the Mall. You are a zealot Remainer, as bad as Farage and Johnson are Leavers. There's no middle ground for you, nor respect of those that voted Leave. You want one thing and one thing only, irrespective of the UK having its biggest vote in history, which Parliament then followed the process of triggering Art 50 and the Withdrawal Bill.

The EU economy is tanking - there's plenty out there to read, not just in the UK media. And the EU army that will never happen is now spoken about very openly. The changes to unanimous voting to qualified majority is just around the corner, and Albania and ???? have passed the first stage of entry into the EU, even though they will become net receivers - do you think the other net receivers will take a hit on what they receive? Do you think Germany with it economic problems, have a look at what their govt bonds are being issued at, will pay more?

And I thought the general thought was only Leavers are stupid...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

Scottish online media starting to refer to Johnson as LBJ.
The L is for lying and the B is certainly not for Boris.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish online media starting to refer to Johnson as LBJ.
The L is for lying and the B is certainly not for Boris.

Click to expand...

Bloke?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

Nice big LIE by Johnson this afternoon - joining the Trump _'I didn't say that'  _club, telling the Rotherham press conference that he didn't say anything about spaffing money up the wall, when he said exactly that!  Johnson is treating us as mugs and continues to demean the office of UK Prime Minister.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nice big LIE by Johnson this afternoon - joining the Trump _'I didn't say that'  _club, telling the Rotherham press conference that he didn't say anything about spaffing money up the wall, when he said exactly that!  Johnson is treating us as mugs and continues to demean the office of UK Prime Minister.







Click to expand...

SILH

Why do you not reply to Post 604 rather than having your own agenda?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			SILH

Why do you not reply to Post 604 rather than having your own agenda?
		
Click to expand...

I read Brian's post and took it on board.

No response was necessary.

Brian's post was critical of my *opinion*.

My post above is *fact, *and I could ask why you do not reply to Post 607, but instead choose to have a go at me.

Yes I may have an agenda.  Johnson is despicable charlatan (my opinion) and should be exposed for being so and not lauded as some bizarre saviour of the country.

Just how I see him I'm afraid.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read Brian's post and took it on board.

No response was necessary.

Brian's post was critical of my *opinion*.

My post above is *fact, *and I could ask why you do not reply to Post 607, but instead choose to have a go at me.

Yes I may have an agenda.  Johnson is despicable charlatan (my opinion) and should be exposed for being so and not lauded as some bizarre saviour of the country.

Just how I see him I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

Have a go at you. Tad sensitive old chap.

You are like a dog with a bone on Brexit. Number of times  you say â€˜Iâ€™m outâ€™ only to return. 

Expect you wish we were OUT!


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## PNWokingham (Sep 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read Brian's post and took it on board.

No response was necessary.

Brian's post was critical of my *opinion*.

My post above is *fact, *and I could ask why you do not reply to Post 607, but instead choose to have a go at me.

Yes I may have an agenda.  Johnson is despicable charlatan (my opinion) and should be exposed for being so and not lauded as some bizarre saviour of the country.

Just how I see him I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

Boris is despicable is a joke if you consider the options. The labour party leadership  is full of the worst of the worst politicians ever - completely inetlectually dumb, zenophobic, stupid, lazy, lying bunch of sewer dwellers that i have ever seen - listening John McDonnell makes my skin crawl and Jezza can't put a sentence together!


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## Dando (Sep 14, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Boris is despicable is a joke if you consider the options. The labour party leadership  is full of the worst of the worst politicians ever - completely inetlectually dumb, zenophobic, stupid, lazy, lying bunch of sewer dwellers that i have ever seen - listening John McDonnell makes my skin crawl and Jezza can't put a sentence together!
		
Click to expand...

I get a feeling your not a fan of labour


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read Brian's post and took it on board.

No response was necessary.

Brian's post was critical of my *opinion*.

My post above is *fact, *and I could ask why you do not reply to Post 607, but instead choose to have a go at me.

Yes I may have an agenda.  Johnson is despicable charlatan (my opinion) and should be exposed for being so and not lauded as some bizarre saviour of the country.

Just how I see him I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

You need to read it again, specifically the para that starts â€œbusiness donâ€™t want barriers...â€ and â€œthe EU economy is tanking...â€

Have a look at what the German govt is selling itâ€™s bonds for and what it is valuing them at. It pricing them at more than their value, and hoping that the dividend will make up the loss.... note, hoping.

Have a look at the value of EU member state bonds that are maturing this year, and are backed by the ECB. They are being classed as junk bonds.

With Germanyâ€™s GDP struggling I wonder who will be picking up the tab? Oh, look. The U.K. are now paying Â£1bn a month, after rebate, even though the new budget doesnâ€™t start till 2020.

Economies linked by a common currency even though those economies are so disparate.

As a trading bloc, absolutely yes. But too many people have walked blind folded into a political monolith that just doesnâ€™t sit right. They believe that they need that federalism AND trade linked, forgetting that trade worked fine for many years without the need to spend billions on a political project that isnâ€™t needed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2019)

Full moon.
Friday 13th.
David Cameron arises after three years silence.


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## chrisd (Sep 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read Brian's post and took it on board.

No response was necessary.

Brian's post was critical of my *opinion*.

My post above is *fact, *and I could ask why you do not reply to Post 607, but instead choose to have a go at me.

Yes I may have an agenda.  Johnson is despicable charlatan (my opinion) and should be exposed for being so and not lauded as some bizarre saviour of the country.

Just how I see him I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

Aren't we all lucky that your, like everyone one else's OPINION means diddly squat, the only time it matters is in the polling station .


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## Dando (Sep 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Full moon.
Friday 13th.
David Cameron arises after three years silence.

Click to expand...

Anyone would think heâ€™s got a book to sell


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## drdel (Sep 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			Anyone would think heâ€™s got a book to sell
		
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Egotist, charlatan and opportunist : best add coward:  did you say he's got a book out ðŸ˜¬ðŸ˜¬


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## jp5 (Sep 18, 2019)

BoJo's habit of lying is making him look stupider and stupider. "There are no press here" (apart from the TV camera and half a dozen photographers)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174291989203959808


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## spongebob59 (Sep 18, 2019)

https://order-order.com/2019/09/18/boris-heckler-labour-activist/


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## Kellfire (Sep 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2019/09/18/boris-heckler-labour-activist/

Click to expand...


Whatâ€™s your point, caller?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Whatâ€™s your point, caller?
		
Click to expand...

Rigged.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Rigged.
		
Click to expand...

How? Or are you suggesting this guy knew the PMâ€™s schedule, deliberately made his 7 DAY old child ill last night, took it hospital, fooled all the Doctors and Nurses and then made sure the baby was admitted to the very ward that the PM would be visiting today. 

Iâ€™d suggest contacting the Police and the PMâ€™s Close Protection Team about a security breach if you think the bloke did all that.


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## Kellfire (Sep 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Rigged.
		
Click to expand...

Yea see the post after yours.


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## robinthehood (Sep 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			How? Or are you suggesting this guy knew the PMâ€™s schedule, deliberately made his 7 DAY old child ill last night, took it hospital, fooled all the Doctors and Nurses and then made sure the baby was admitted to the very ward that the PM would be visiting today.

Iâ€™d suggest contacting the Police and the PMâ€™s Close Protection Team about a security breach if you think the bloke did all that. 

Click to expand...

Yes I'd say he is.

Turns out all the scumbag protesters are remainers  disguised as rabid brexiters.

Who knew


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			How? Or are you suggesting this guy knew the PMâ€™s schedule, deliberately made his 7 DAY old child ill last night, took it hospital, fooled all the Doctors and Nurses and then made sure the baby was admitted to the very ward that the PM would be visiting today.

Iâ€™d suggest contacting the Police and the PMâ€™s Close Protection Team about a security breach if you think the bloke did all that. 

Click to expand...

Is he a Labour activist or not?


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## Kellfire (Sep 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is he a Labour activist or not?
		
Click to expand...

Yep. 

And thatâ€™s relevant... how?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Whatâ€™s your point, caller?
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174417990416240641


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## Kellfire (Sep 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174417990416240641

Click to expand...


Again, whatâ€™s your point? Should we sit around like sheep and accept the deep underfunding of the NHS?

Using vermin like Piers Morgan doesnâ€™t help your point.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Yep.

And thatâ€™s relevant... how?
		
Click to expand...

Because hes a political activist and didnt declare it, he wanted to give the appearance of being a regular concerned parent. He probably is a concerned parent, but not regular.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 18, 2019)

You know you are on the wrong side of an argument when you look around and Piers Morgan is holding your beer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is he a Labour activist or not?
		
Click to expand...

So you agree it was rigged?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because hes a political activist and didnt declare it, he wanted to give the appearance of being a regular concerned parent. He probably is a concerned parent, but not regular.
		
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Seriously!! Get a grip for god sake, has no tory activist ever questioned Corbyn or previous Labour PMâ€™s!
Massive difference between some balloon head (regardless of political affiliation) grandstanding or jumping on his 5 minutes of fame and it being rigged.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously!! Get a grip for god sake, has no tory activist ever questioned Corbyn or previous Labour PMâ€™s!
Massive difference between some balloon head (regardless of political affiliation) grandstanding or jumping on his 5 minutes of fame and it being rigged.
		
Click to expand...

There seems to be a question about this persons reaction. If a political activist makes an attack on a politician of the oposite persuasion whilst not declaring their bias then they are open to being questioned on their intentions.  If they dont like this then either declare your position or keep out of it.  This stands for any political persuasion not just Labour, although I am not surprised you have used that bias.

Do you think this man is imune from his intentions being questioned? And try to be less emotional with your comment, its not necessary and clouds the debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There seems to be a question about this persons reaction. If a political activist makes an attack on a politician of the oposite persuasion whilst not declaring their bias then they are open to being questioned on their intentions.  If they dont like this then either declare your position or keep out of it.  This stands for any political persuasion not just Labour, although I am not surprised you have used that bias.

Do you think this man is imune from his intentions being questioned? And try to be less emotional with your comment, its not necessary and clouds the debate.
		
Click to expand...

So again youâ€™ve failed to answer the question! Do you believe it was rigged?

I donâ€™t care about the manâ€™s intention, I donâ€™t care what Party he represents,
I just find the level of paranoia from some of the most ardent of Leavers unreal, itâ€™s getting close to tin foil hats from some.

Looking at the interview, the PM went to were he was and a father of a sick baby had a go at him.

Afterwards we get the enquiry to who the man is, now we know his background the conspiracy theories start.

Was what he said to the PM tainted by his affiliation to the Labour Party, absolutely it was, but rigged?


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## Dando (Sep 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Again, whatâ€™s your point? Should we sit around like sheep and accept the deep underfunding of the NHS?

Using vermin like Piers Morgan doesnâ€™t help your point.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if the nhs hadnâ€™t been burdened with all those PFI funded hospitals them it would have more money to spend on treating the ill


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			Maybe if the nhs hadnâ€™t been burdened with all those PFI funded hospitals them it would have more money to spend on treating the ill
		
Click to expand...

 Maybe!


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There seems to be a question about this persons reaction. If a political activist makes an attack on a politician of the oposite persuasion whilst not declaring their bias then they are open to being questioned on their intentions.  If they dont like this then either declare your position or keep out of it.  This stands for any political persuasion not just Labour, although I am not surprised you have used that bias.

Do you think this man is imune from his intentions being questioned? And try to be less emotional with your comment, its not necessary and clouds the debate.
		
Click to expand...

"Excuse me Mr Johnson but I'm a political activist for Labour and would like to attack you on your govt's underfunding of the NHS." Sounds kinda silly doesn't it. And a little bit emotional using the word "attack." as you did, and you then went on to say "try to be less emotional."

There's a world of a difference between the idiots outside the High Court and the guy in the hospital. Yes the guy is a self-proclaimed political activist for Labour, and because of that no doubt better equipped to raise the issues. He took advantage of the opportunity, and good on him. Was he grandstanding? Was the PM grandstanding by being there too?

You often, quite rightly, bang on about democracy and respecting the vote - no problem with that at all. But surely the man in the street, irrespective of his political leanings and competencies, can raise questions and make points to the PM? Are you really looking to stifle debate and accountability?


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are you really looking to stifle debate and accountability?
		
Click to expand...

Only when it suits, hence the whataboutery of the PFI initiatives.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"Excuse me Mr Johnson but I'm a political activist for Labour and would like to attack you on your govt's underfunding of the NHS." Sounds kinda silly doesn't it. And a little bit emotional using the word "attack." as you did, and you then went on to say "try to be less emotional."

There's a world of a difference between the idiots outside the High Court and the guy in the hospital. Yes the guy is a self-proclaimed political activist for Labour, and because of that no doubt better equipped to raise the issues. He took advantage of the opportunity, and good on him. Was he grandstanding? Was the PM grandstanding by being there too?

You often, quite rightly, bang on about democracy and respecting the vote - no problem with that at all. But surely the man in the street, irrespective of his political leanings and competencies, can raise questions and make points to the PM? Are you really looking to stifle debate and accountability?
		
Click to expand...

He should have kept out of it, its wrong to put the blame over funding of the NHS on Boris Johnson, he has committed to increasing spend, politicians going back many decades have been responsible and especially labour with their PFI.  I have no doubt this guy was taking advantage of the situation and grandstanding, there is also a suspicion he was rigged with a radio microphone although this maybe hyperbole.    There have been other cases with such people as him wno are political activists, I don't trust the intentions of groups like Momentum one bit.


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## patricks148 (Sep 19, 2019)

Laura Kuenssber showing off the BBCs impartiallity

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2...RHnhHrK-LWMn6t1RJlk0ljQ4wKrPx0CiSSiuOvRY-tV6Y


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So again youâ€™ve failed to answer the question! Do you believe it was rigged?

I donâ€™t care about the manâ€™s intention, I donâ€™t care what Party he represents,
I just find the level of paranoia from some of the most ardent of Leavers unreal, itâ€™s getting close to tin foil hats from some.
...
Afterwards we get the enquiry to who the man is, now we know his background the conspiracy theories start.

*Was what he said to the PM tainted by his affiliation to the Labour Party, absolutely it was, but rigged?*

Click to expand...

See also the reaction to the neighbours of Johnson's current cuddle.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He should have kept out of it, its wrong to put the blame over funding of the NHS on Boris Johnson, he has committed to increasing spend, politicians going back many decades have been responsible and especially labour with their PFI.  I have no doubt this guy was taking advantage of the situation and grandstanding, there is also a suspicion he was rigged with a radio microphone although this maybe hyperbole.    There have been other cases with such people as him wno are political activists, I don't trust the intentions of groups like Momentum one bit.
		
Click to expand...

Blah, Blah, Blah AND still not answered the question, but another conspiracy theory.....cuckoo.....cuckoo


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## User62651 (Sep 19, 2019)

Turn a negative into a positive.

Clearly spin from PMs team but maybe they're learning that leadership is listening and compromising not just 'my way or no way'?

That kind of response is more becoming of a leader than plain denial. It's concessionary and says 'I'm listening' - better tactic. A good tweet.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174415346561945601


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He should have kept out of it, its wrong to put the blame over funding of the NHS on Boris Johnson, he has committed to increasing spend, politicians going back many decades have been responsible and especially labour with their PFI.  I have no doubt this guy was taking advantage of the situation and grandstanding, there is also a suspicion he was rigged with a radio microphone although this maybe hyperbole.    There have been other cases with such people as him wno are political activists, I don't trust the intentions of groups like Momentum one bit.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. I see no reason whatsoever why he couldn't talk to Johnson. And the current funding, and not just current, is the Tories remit. PFI was introduced under Labour, and the terms of those contracts were tested for affordability for their lifespan with the assumption that funding would continue to be in place. Successive govts, both Labour and Tory haven't addressed it. The Tories have had 9 years to address those shortfalls and done less than bugger all.

I've seen PFI in the NHS from both sides, right from before their inception, and still speak to ex-colleagues and many friends. The NHS is on its knees, especially the PFI Trusts, and the Tories current sop will make virtually no difference at all.


I don't like Momentum on bit, but I also don't like the 1922 Committee. Different sides of the same coin.


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## funkycoldmedina (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I disagree. I see no reason whatsoever why he couldn't talk to Johnson. And the current funding, and not just current, is the Tories remit. PFI was introduced under Labour, and the terms of those contracts were tested for affordability for their lifespan with the assumption that funding would continue to be in place. Successive govts, both Labour and Tory haven't addressed it. The Tories have had 9 years to address those shortfalls and done less than bugger all.

I've seen PFI in the NHS from both sides, right from before their inception, and still speak to ex-colleagues and many friends. The NHS is on its knees, especially the PFI Trusts, and the Tories current sop will make virtually no difference at all.


I don't like Momentum on bit, but I also don't like the 1922 Committee. Different sides of the same coin.
		
Click to expand...

The is last line sums up our political system to a tee. Our failing NHS is the fault of Labour's PFI nothing to do with current incumbent. The global financial crash happened on Labour's watch therefore it's their fault and not the government who sanctioned the deregulation of the banks. The truth lies in between. All our parties have the ability to implement good and bad policies and should be held to account most importantly by their own members.
This polarisation and demonisation of our politics and politicians is a worrying trend. Older generations should know better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The is last line sums up our political system to a tee. Our failing NHS is the fault of Labour's PFI nothing to do with current incumbent. The global financial crash happened on Labour's watch therefore it's their fault and not the government who sanctioned the deregulation of the banks. The truth lies in between. All our parties have the ability to implement good and bad policies and should be held to account most importantly by their own members.
This polarisation and demonisation of our politics and politicians is a worrying trend. *Older generations should know better.*

Click to expand...

They do - the better times were the joyous days of the 1950s and early 60s - when all was great after the horrors of the war.  Except all was not great these days  - it was very austere and pretty grim and grey - but it was a hell of a lot better than the late 30s to mid-40s.  'Better times' have to be relative to something - and when that something was very, very grim it is easy to view things in retrospect as being great.  And yes - you'd think we'd remember what brought about those very grim times.


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

Life is very good and very comfortable for more people now than just about ever in UK history.

That's why it grinds my gears so much when some racist gammons say things like "...and that's why we're in such a terrible state" to justify their abhorrent racism, sexist, homophobic etc views.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Life is very good and very comfortable for more people now than just about ever in UK history.

That's why it grinds my gears so much when some racist gammons say things like "...and that's why we're in such a terrible state" to justify their abhorrent racism, sexist, homophobic etc views.
		
Click to expand...

Seems like you're the Gammon judging by that outpouring of vitriol.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Blah, Blah, Blah AND still not answered the question, but another conspiracy theory.....cuckoo.....cuckoo

Click to expand...

Calm down dear!   What question are you popping on about anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Calm down dear!   What question are you popping on about anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Very calm thanks, just enjoying watching you deflect and your inability to answer a straightforward question.


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like you're the Gammon judging by that outpouring of vitriol.
		
Click to expand...

Being tolerant = vitriol? 

Ah mate.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Being tolerant = vitriol?

Ah mate.
		
Click to expand...

 Tolerant!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Very calm thanks, just enjoying watching you deflect and your inability to answer a straightforward question.
		
Click to expand...

You didn't answer mine


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



 Tolerant!
		
Click to expand...

Yep. I'm not racist... or sexist... or homophobic.

I'm not tolerant of ignorant little Englander gammons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You didn't answer mine 

Click to expand...

Not playing your childish games.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Yep. I'm not racist... or sexist... or homophobic.

I'm not tolerant of ignorant little Englander gammons.
		
Click to expand...

Grow up mate, you really are confused. Where were you accused of being  racist or Sexist or Homophobic?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not playing your childish games. 

Click to expand...

I cant be assed to trawl back through your posts, if you have a question to ask then ask it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant be assed to trawl back through your posts, if you have a question to ask then ask it .
		
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Itâ€™s not the first time youâ€™ve avoided answering posts after looking daft, Iâ€™m sure it wonâ€™t be the last.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not the first time youâ€™ve avoided answering posts after looking daft, Iâ€™m sure it wonâ€™t be the last.

Click to expand...

I give up. If you dont want to ask then you wont get an answer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*I give up.* If you dont want to ask then you wont get an answer.
		
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If only, if only!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Life is very good and very comfortable for more people now than just about ever in UK history.

That's why it grinds my gears so much when some racist gammons say things like "...and that's why we're in such a terrible state" to justify their abhorrent racism, sexist, homophobic etc views.
		
Click to expand...


100% agree on your 1st para, life in Britain for most people has never been better.
Donâ€™t recognise your 2nd para.. Who you been mixing with, the nutcases at CAMRA?


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## drdel (Sep 19, 2019)

C'mon guys this two way bickering ain't showing either of you in very good light.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 19, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			T Our failing NHS is the fault of Labour's PFI nothing to do with current incumbent.
		
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When Maggie Thatcher was in power, she decided that our area didn't need 7 hospitals covering all aspects of health care but just 1 super hospital. Problem was she closed the other 6 before the super hopsital couold be just that, and so people had to travel to other areas to get certain things done, and even now that hospital cannot cope with the demands placed on it. The Tories cut the NHS to shreds under Thatcher in the name of efficiency but all they did was spread the desease that is under funding, over crowding and demand, longer waiting times and poor moral. PFI is another animal, but Thatcher cut the roots of the system.
Do you not think that if we hadn't shut so many hospitals PFI wouldnt have been so prevelant?


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## Kellfire (Sep 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			100% agree on your 1st para, life in Britain for most people has never been better.
Donâ€™t recognise your 2nd para.. Who you been mixing with, the nutcases at CAMRA?
		
Click to expand...

I tend to avoid CAMRA like the plague. 

Check out any Facebook Brexit group. Theyâ€™re hilarious.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon guys this two way bickering ain't showing either of you in very good light.
		
Click to expand...

Whos bickering.  He wants me to answer a question but wont tell me what it is.  I give up on it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon guys this two way bickering ain't showing either of you in very good light.
		
Click to expand...

Come on mate, heâ€™s the first to throw irony calls at LP, heâ€™s been warned by the mods over his posts with SILH, heâ€™s been calling out others.
Last week he demands a retraction from me after I called him out saying remainers are losers, I provided evidence, still awaiting his apology, last night/today he is asked numerous times if he believes the bloke meeting the PM was rigged, not only has he not answered that he denies all knowledge of it and says I should ask again as he canâ€™t be bothered!

He really needs to take a look at himself in the mirror before calling out others.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on mate, heâ€™s the first to throw irony calls at LP, heâ€™s been warned by the mods over his posts with SILH, heâ€™s been calling out others.
Last week he demands a retraction from me after I called him out saying remainers are losers, I provided evidence, still awaiting his apology, last night/today he is asked numerous times if he believes the bloke meeting the PM was rigged, not only has he not answered that he denies all knowledge of it and says I should ask again as he canâ€™t be bothered!

He really needs to take a look at himself in the mirror before calling out others.
		
Click to expand...

Ah! at last a question.   The answer is : I havent a clue if he was rigged, its what others have been suggesting but I said that already.   Still dont understand why you didnt explain when I asked you a number of times.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! at last a question.   The answer is : I havent a clue if he was rigged, its what others have been suggesting but I said that already.   Still dont understand why you didnt explain when I asked you a number of times.
		
Click to expand...

You were asked DIRECTLY 3 times since last night If you believe it was rigged, no answer, then rumours of a microphone, now you answer my post to someone else and still try and play the victim.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You were asked DIRECTLY 3 times since last night If you believe it was rigged, no answer, then rumours of a microphone, now you answer my post to someone else and still try and play the victim.
		
Click to expand...

Grow up please


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## robinthehood (Sep 19, 2019)

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Grow up please 

Click to expand...

Oh the irony......


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## Mudball (Sep 26, 2019)

Is it just me or just a bit of Stockholm syndrome.. he is fully trapped - courts not going his way, â€˜misled queenâ€™, opposition looking for blood, EU watching us implode, Trump is a strong supporter, potential conflict of interest, fast and loose with language  etc etc .... 

But unlike TMay he seems to be fighting .. there is a bull dog in there.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

Thereâ€™s a bullshit dog in there.

Itâ€™s no Stockholm syndrome, itâ€™s just the Trump playbook of setting yourself up as a populist against â€œthe establishmentâ€ to gain votes and that an Eton Bullingdon boy is able to get away with that is a sad indictment of our print media and population.


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Thereâ€™s a bullshit dog in there.

Itâ€™s no Stockholm syndrome, itâ€™s just the Trump playbook of setting yourself up as a populist against â€œthe establishmentâ€ to gain votes and that an Eton Bullingdon boy is able to get away with that is a sad indictment of our print media and population.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, for a second I thought you were talking about Corbyn, that other â€œpopulistâ€ figure fighting against the establishment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 26, 2019)

Quite ridiculous that the super rich Eton public school Tory faction are claiming that 'the establishment' are somehow against them.

Johnson/Gove are so desperate now that all they have left is to appeal to UK extremist groups.
How low has this once great party stooped,


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry, for a second I thought you were talking about Corbyn, that other â€œpopulistâ€ figure fighting against the establishment.
		
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No I wasnâ€™t , the thread is about Depfeffel so I was talking about him. I can see how one could get confused though. Here are some pictures to help clear it up for you ðŸ˜†


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

[QUOTE="Doon frae Troon, post: 2055567, member: 15632"How low has this once great party stooped,[/QUOTE]


Once great??  Thatâ€™s one less Xmas card I have to buy @Doon frae Troon ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			[QUOTE="Doon frae Troon, post: 2055567, member: 15632"How low has this once great party stooped,
		
Click to expand...


Once great??  Thatâ€™s one less Xmas card I have to buy @Doon frae Troon ðŸ˜‚[/QUOTE]

Fair play
They were once great...â€¦....I actually voted for Thatcher twice.
Well it was either her or Michael Foot/Kinnoch.

BTW good pics of Johnson/Corbyn in earlier times.


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## Mudball (Sep 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite ridiculous that the super rich Eton public school Tory faction are claiming that 'the establishment' are somehow against them.

Johnson/Gove are so desperate now that all they have left is to appeal to UK extremist groups.
How low has this once great party stooped,
		
Click to expand...

You know you are up the creek without a paddle when Farage thinks you are hitting new lows. 

Speaking of Farage... anyone thinks Boris will make a pact with the Devil to ensure that he gets the full Brexiteer vote and get back in power


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			You know you are up the creek without a paddle when Farage thinks you are hitting new lows.

Speaking of Farage... *anyone thinks Boris will make a pact with the Devil to ensure that he gets the full Brexiteer vote and get back in power*

Click to expand...

Well if he says he wont, that means he will. Then deny he said he wouldn't despite it being recorded...............the Johnson way. Lie, lie and lie again.


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## patricks148 (Sep 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once great??  Thatâ€™s one less Xmas card I have to buy @Doon frae Troon ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Fair play
They were once great...â€¦....*I actually voted for Thatcher twice.*
Well it was either her or Michael Foot/Kinnoch.

BTW good pics of Johnson/Corbyn in earlier times.[/QUOTE]


TBH that you def off my christmas card list, that woman started all the probelms that have been coming home to rost over the last 20 years


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## JPLon (Sep 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Speaking of Farage... anyone thinks Boris will make a pact with the Devil to ensure that he gets the full Brexiteer vote and get back in power
		
Click to expand...

Nailed on i'd have thought. Tories have desperately tried to position themselves as the no deal party to take the Northern Labour seats in hard leave areas. It's the only way they can get a majority, so if the Brexit Party can hang around and take a load themselves Boris will have to do a deal. Fortunately it's a relatively easy one for him as the Brexit Party only care about one thing, so give them that and agree they will vote with you on everything else.

With their relative positions on Brexit there's no chance of Tory coalition with Lib Dem or SNP so they don't have many options if they can't get a majority.


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			No I wasnâ€™t , the thread is about Depfeffel so I was talking about him. I can see how one could get confused though. Here are some pictures to help clear it up for you ðŸ˜†
		
Click to expand...

I know who you were talking about, just making the point that none of them are fit for office... sorry I wasnâ€™t clear enough for you


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2019)

PM now played 7 lost 7........bizarre times. 

Johnson's own sister not impressed with PMs language.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940 

When will his fortunes change? Can he survive?


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## IanM (Sep 26, 2019)

Boris use of language is mild compared with the compilation of Labour Front Bench speeches doing the rounds on Twitter and FB today.   He hasn't sworn, said he'd knife or strangle anyone.  

But of course BIG blind spot on many things exists eh?


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			PM now played 7 lost 7........bizarre times.

Johnson's own sister not impressed with PMs language.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940

When will his fortunes change? Can he survive?
		
Click to expand...

He will survive.  He could have Princess Diana exhumed and host a dinner party with her for Marine Le Pen and half the country would still vote for him. Brexit means Brexit.


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			No I wasnâ€™t , the thread is about Depfeffel...
		
Click to expand...

Whooosh!


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Whooosh! 

Click to expand...

Seriously , you think so? Whoosh whoosh. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ¤£


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## MegaSteve (Sep 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			Boris use of language is mild compared with the compilation of Labour Front Bench speeches doing the rounds on Twitter and FB today.   He hasn't sworn, said he'd knife or strangle anyone. 

But of course BIG blind spot on many things exists eh? 

Click to expand...

Yep, like the BIG blind spot the right wing press has with the MANY team tory failings...


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## IanM (Sep 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Yep, like the BIG blind spot the right wing press has with the MANY team tory failings...
		
Click to expand...


Correct,  it is called "positioning"...... you know, like the Guardian, The Mirror, The BBC, ....  The Supreme Court!  

But a reasoned  appraisal of the outrage quoted and the examples I gave for comparison would be nice...  but I won't hold my breath.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			Correct,  it is called "positioning"...... you know, like the Guardian, The Mirror, The BBC, ....  The Supreme Court!  

But a reasoned  appraisal of the outrage quoted and the examples I gave for comparison would be nice...  but I won't hold my breath.
		
Click to expand...

When, as Boris does, you start saying stuff that appeals to the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins you need to start taking a long hard look at yourself... Doubt Boris will though... As I am strongly suspecting it's such lowlife's Boris takes pleasure in appealing to...


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			When, as Boris does, you start saying stuff that appeals to the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins you need to start taking a long hard look at yourself... Doubt Boris will though... As I am strongly suspecting it's such lowlife's Boris takes pleasure in appealing to...
		
Click to expand...

I know some people feel its deflection but just who out of the main protagonists from both sides of the arguments and across the political parties has shown even the ounce of goodness in all of this?

We all have our political leanings and preferences, and I'm sure we could all say wonderful things about the parties and leaders we 'lean' towards... BUT honestly, they are all a bunch of....

Boris has been splattered for the Jo Cox thing, especially the media. However, have you seen the full passage? I'm pretty sure it was started by the Labour MP who ranted about how dare he use language like "surrender"(really) in front of the plaque to JoCox. I'm sure we all have our own versions of the text and intonation, and I think a fair bit of what Boris said was over the top but the rest of Parliament, including those Tories who didn't vote for him, are just throwing insults and taunting him because he has no workable majority.

AND BEFORE ANY BLINKERED IDIOTS WANT A POP AT ME FOR THE ABOVE, I CAN'T STAND THE GUY AND I DEFINITELY THINK HE'S THE WORST PM WE'VE HAD SINCE THE OLD KING DIED. but c'mon lets have a bit of balance to the argument.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

How petty of them to deny a recession for the Conservative party conference.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

He must feel like Watford playing Man City with him 7 nil down - one more and he matches that result.

It still a shock that he is in charge of our country ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

Suppose got to give him credit for the way he did it - treachery


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

Corbyns just released a video where's he slates Boris and then references Jo Cox ðŸ˜²


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Corbyns just released a video where's he slates Boris and then references Jo Cox ðŸ˜²
		
Click to expand...

I watched the video, thought it was from a parody account initially, then realised it was genuine!
Were was the video from Corbyn condemning McDonnell all the times heâ€™s spouted hate and encouraged violence.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He must feel like Watford playing Man City with him 7 nil down - one more and he matches that result.

It still a shock that he is in charge of our country ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

Suppose got to give him credit for the way he did it - treachery
		
Click to expand...

How refreshing to hear such a voice of reason and conciliation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How refreshing to hear such a voice of reason and conciliation.
		
Click to expand...

What a surprise SR posts a sarcastic comment in response to a post that dares to have an opinion that is different to his. Why bother ? What is it you hope to gain from it ?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What a surprise SR posts a sarcastic comment in response to a post that dares to have an opinion that is different to his. Why bother ? What is it you hope to gain from it ?
		
Click to expand...

Just when it seems you can't get more ironic you just come back and show us its possible. ðŸ™„


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## MegaSteve (Sep 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know some people feel its deflection but just who out of the main protagonists from both sides of the arguments and across the political parties has shown even the ounce of goodness in all of this?

We all have our political leanings and preferences, and I'm sure we could all say wonderful things about the parties and leaders we 'lean' towards... BUT honestly, they are all a bunch of....

Boris has been splattered for the Jo Cox thing, especially the media. However, have you seen the full passage? I'm pretty sure it was started by the Labour MP who ranted about how dare he use language like "surrender"(really) in front of the plaque to JoCox. I'm sure we all have our own versions of the text and intonation, and I think a fair bit of what Boris said was over the top but the rest of Parliament, including those Tories who didn't vote for him, are just throwing insults and taunting him because he has no workable majority.

AND BEFORE ANY BLINKERED IDIOTS WANT A POP AT ME FOR THE ABOVE, I CAN'T STAND THE GUY AND I DEFINITELY THINK HE'S THE WORST PM WE'VE HAD SINCE THE OLD KING DIED. but c'mon lets have a bit of balance to the argument.
		
Click to expand...

I live in a Tory stronghold surrounded by the 'enemy'... My neighbours advise they are often appalled by the words of Boris and the stance he adopts... They question which natural Tory voters he seeks to appeal to and advise it isn't them... They'll, no doubt, continue to vote for the blue rosette but it will be despite Boris rather than because of him...


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I live in a Tory stronghold surrounded by the 'enemy'... My neighbours advise they are often appalled by the words of Boris and the stance he adopts... They question which natural Tory voters he seeks to appeal to and advise it isn't them... They'll, no doubt, continue to vote for the blue rosette but it will be despite Boris rather than because of him...
		
Click to expand...

So you've told us ad nauseam. We know you're in a Tory stronghold, and would prefer anyone but Tories. Where does that fit in with what I've posted, other than being a vehicle for you to remind us, again, you live in a Tory stronghold and prefer Labour.

All I said is they are as bad as each other, unless you're blinkered. BTW, most of my voting life its been Labour but my blinkers were shed many years ago.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			Boris use of language is mild compared with the compilation of Labour Front Bench speeches doing the rounds on Twitter and FB today.   He hasn't sworn, said he'd knife or strangle anyone.

But of course BIG blind spot on many things exists eh? 

Click to expand...

These are the people complaining about Boris's language:


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 27, 2019)

Johnson shouting that Scotland has the highest level of taxes in the UK without saying that they also have the lowest level of taxes in the UK makes him look a bit silly.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson shouting that Scotland has the highest level of taxes in the UK without saying that they also have the lowest level of taxes in the UK makes him look a bit silly.
		
Click to expand...

Er! What.


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## User62651 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Er! What.
		
Click to expand...

Income tax was devolved a year or two back and differs from rUK so that high earners pay a bit more but also low earners a bit less, tax brackets adjusted by ScotGov, I'm guessing that's what DfT is referencing.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Income tax was devolved a year or two back and differs from rUK so that high earners pay a bit more but also low earners a bit less, tax brackets adjusted by ScotGov, I'm guessing that's what DfT is referencing.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. If he has said rates  rather than level I may have understood.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 27, 2019)

Maybe Jezza the Red should stop singing his anthem if hes worried about offensive words 

The international socialist movement has long used the _Red Flag_, and it is the current anthem of the Labour Party, despite including the â€“ supposedly dangerous and offensive â€“ lyrics:
_Though cowards flinch and *traitors* sneer,
Weâ€™ll keep the red flag flying here._​


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite ridiculous that the super rich Eton public school Tory faction are claiming that 'the establishment' are somehow against them.

Johnson/Gove are so desperate now that all they have left is to appeal to UK extremist groups.
How low has this once great party stooped,
		
Click to expand...

What you mean, the extremist group of 17.4 million people who voted leave.?
Boris and co.are trying to implement the result of the referendum. Even giving you and your lot a chance to get rid of him by voting- But, no, you gave up democracy long ago, it seems.


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## User62651 (Sep 27, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What you mean, the extremist group of 17.4 million people who voted leave.?
*Boris and co.are trying to implement the result of the referendum*. Even giving you and your lot a chance to get rid of him by voting- But, no, you gave up democracy long ago, it seems.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they are but remember the motivation - Boris is not doing this for 17.4m or for the UK, he is doing it purely for himself so he can survive as PM. He was never a true Leaver, it was a vehicle to get to No.10. He is a chancer.
Whilst I'm no fan of Farage at least his motivation for Brexit is real and genuine.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know some people feel its deflection but just who out of the main protagonists from both sides of the arguments and across the political parties has shown even the ounce of goodness in all of this?

We all have our political leanings and preferences, and I'm sure we could all say wonderful things about the parties and leaders we 'lean' towards... BUT honestly, they are all a bunch of....

*Boris has been splattered for the Jo Cox thing, especially the media. However, have you seen the full passage? *I'm pretty sure it was started by the Labour MP who ranted about how dare he use language like "surrender"(really) in front of the plaque to JoCox. I'm sure we all have our own versions of the text and intonation, and I think a fair bit of what Boris said was over the top but the rest of Parliament, including those Tories who didn't vote for him, are just throwing insults and taunting him because he has no workable majority.

AND BEFORE ANY BLINKERED IDIOTS WANT A POP AT ME FOR THE ABOVE, I CAN'T STAND THE GUY AND I DEFINITELY THINK HE'S THE WORST PM WE'VE HAD SINCE THE OLD KING DIED. but c'mon lets have a bit of balance to the argument.
		
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Yes, about the Jo Cox thing. I saw the exchanges live. He had been on his feet a long time and doing a good job of answering the same thing over and over.
He *DID NOT *initiate the name of Jo Cox. That was used in a question/statement by a Labour MP. He responded with a moments notice and clearly felt he had to say something about Jo Cox, in a conciliatry manner about her, and that was his OFF the cuff attempt. No offence meant at all, and if people were fair, they would have seen that.
But we are not going to see "fair" in this day and age are we? 
No, jump,in and go for the jugular, lads. Get him!
I've seen three press reports on Boris and the Jo Cox thing and each one of them omitted to say it was a response to her name being brought up by some other MP. Without knowing the truth you could easily be left with  the impression
that he brought it up.
What a standard of journalism is that?
And as for the use of vitriolic language! He used the term surrender bill, and they are offended?  Poor dears.
They need to have a bit knowledge about some of the things that have been said in the Chamber before complaining in their self righteous indignation.
For instance, the exchange between Churchill and Bessie Braddock.
Those two stalwarts would be horrified at the thin skins of this present bunch.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, about the Jo Cox thing. I saw the exchanges live. He had been on his feet a long time and doing a good job of answering the same thing over and over.
He *DID NOT *initiate the name of Jo Cox. That was used in a question/statement by a Labour MP. He responded with a moments notice and clearly felt he had to say something about Jo Cox, in a conciliatry manner about her, and that was his OFF the cuff attempt. No offence meant at all, and if people were fair, they would have seen that.
But we are not going to see "fair" in this day and age are we?
No, jump,in and go for the jugular, lads. Get him!
I've seen three press reports on Boris and the Jo Cox thing and each one of them omitted to say it was a response to her name being brought up by some other MP. Without knowing the truth you could easily be left with  the impression
that he brought it up.
What a standard of journalism is that?
And as for the use of vitriolic language! He used the term surrender bill, and they are offended?  Poor dears.
They need to have a bit knowledge about some of the things that have been said in the Chamber before complaining in their self righteous indignation.
For instance, the exchange between Churchill and Bessie Braddock.
Those two stalwarts would be horrified at the thin skins of this present bunch.
		
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Itâ€™s not about who initiated her name, it was his response to the initial question, ie â€œIâ€™ve never heard such humbug in all my lifeâ€ not only did the question reference Jo Cox, Paula Sherriff also mentioned the death threats her and other MPâ€™s had received.

His response was ill thought out, but not to worry the poor guy had sat on a plane for 8hrs earlier in the day.


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## robinthehood (Sep 27, 2019)

Lots of talk about who stands to make a killing from no deal.  Just keeps getting worse for bojo


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## drdel (Sep 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lots of talk about who stands to make a killing from no deal.  Just keeps getting worse for bojo
		
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The UK will make a 'killing'; mostly by not being dragged into supporting the massive, and rising, debt by the EU's silly economic plans.


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## IanM (Sep 27, 2019)

Boris said hurty words?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177318738384818183


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not about who initiated her name, it was his response to the initial question, ie â€œIâ€™ve never heard such humbug in all my lifeâ€ not only did the question reference Jo Cox, Paula Sherriff also mentioned the death threats her and other MPâ€™s had received.

His response was ill thought out, but not to worry the poor guy had sat on a plane for 8hrs earlier in the day.
		
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Sorry but his response was fine. Paula Sherriff displayed confected angst, and it was all for show.Her link was tenuous at best but very few want to see it because it goes against their beliefs of Johnson.

Personally, I think he's untrustworthy and would happily call him out for some of the rubbish he spouts. But on this one I feel he's being pilloried unfairly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but his response was fine. Paula Sherriff displayed confected angst, and it was all for show.Her link was tenuous at best but very few want to see it because it goes against their beliefs of Johnson.

Personally, I think he's untrustworthy and would happily call him out for some of the rubbish he spouts. But on this one I feel he's being pilloried unfairly.
		
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Iâ€™ve not supported what sheâ€™s said and I do understand were you are coming from, but, I think his response could of been more measured and with a moments pause he could of deflected back on to her rather than simply dismiss what she said, unfortunately MPâ€™s from all sides are targets for all sorts of nasty threats and any valid points she may of had during her question has been lost due to both his response and her mentioning Jo Cox (but not by name) at the start of her question.

Edit: for those who havenâ€™t seen or read it, this is her question.

"We should not resort to using offensive, dangerous or inflammatory language for legislation that we do not like, and we stand here under the shield of our departed friend with many of us in this place subject to death threats and abuse every single day."

"They often quote his words 'Surrender Act', 'betrayal', 'traitor' and I for one am sick of it.

"We must moderate our language, and it has to come from the prime minister first."

To which he gave the reply:

"I have to say, Mr Speaker, I've never heard such humbug in all my life."


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## Fade and Die (Sep 27, 2019)

Boris came to Princess Alexandra Hospital near us today and got a rapturous reception. Harlow â€“ a leave zone. Bet that wasnâ€™t reported on BBC news. No Omar the plant to grab the headlines.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve not supported what sheâ€™s said and I do understand were you are coming from, but, I think his response could of been more measured and with a moments pause he could of deflected back on to her rather than simply dismiss what she said, unfortunately MPâ€™s from all sides are targets for all sorts of nasty threats and any valid points she may of had during her question has been lost due to both his response and her mentioning Jo Cox (but not by name) at the start of her question.

Edit: for those who havenâ€™t seen or read it, this is her question.

"We should not resort to using offensive, dangerous or inflammatory language for legislation that we do not like, and we stand here under the shield of our departed friend with many of us in this place subject to death threats and abuse every single day."

"They often quote his words 'Surrender Act', 'betrayal', 'traitor' and I for one am sick of it.

"We must moderate our language, and it has to come from the prime minister first."

To which he gave the reply:

"I have to say, Mr Speaker, I've never heard such humbug in all my life."
		
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The U.K. had a wimp as last PM. Sherriffâ€™s demeanour, donâ€™t forget 80 of a message comes f


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The U.K. had a wimp as last PM. Sherriffâ€™s demeanour, donâ€™t forget 80 of a message comes f
		
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Comes from body language and intonation. Sherrif made a cheap shot, looking to use the death of Jo Cox as a weapon, and he quite rightly gave her both barrels back.

He recognised what she was doing and called her out,  â€œhumbug,â€ and she was well played by his response.

Iâ€™m of the opinion that Sherrif got what she deserved. The majority of the House were just baying hounds chasing blood at almost whatever cost.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Comes from body language and intonation. Sherrif made a cheap shot, looking to use the death of Jo Cox as a weapon, and he quite rightly gave her both barrels back.

He recognised what she was doing and called her out,  â€œhumbug,â€ and she was well played by his response.

Iâ€™m of the opinion that Sherrif got what she deserved. The majority of the House were just baying hounds chasing blood at almost whatever cost.
		
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Again though Bri, no one comes out of this with any credit, but maybe, naively Iâ€™d still like our PM to be more statesman like and maybe prove some of us wrong.
Everything with him from day 1 of his term has been at a million miles an hour.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

What a precious crowd of Twazzocks, oh dear Boris said Surrender and Humbug.  It was pathetic seeing them work themselves up into a froth.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though Bri, no one comes out of this with any credit, but maybe, naively Iâ€™d still like our PM to be more statesman like and maybe prove some of us wrong.
Everything with him from day 1 of his term has been at a million miles an hour.
		
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To be fair he doesn't have a lot of time on his hands


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though Bri, no one comes out of this with any credit, but maybe, naively Iâ€™d still like our PM to be more statesman like and maybe prove some of us wrong.
Everything with him from day 1 of his term has been at a million miles an hour.
		
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May was states(wo)man like and got owned. The House is a bear pit at present, from all sides. And youâ€™re right, no one comes out with much credit. I feel heâ€™s fighting from the back foot because he has no majority. 

As Iâ€™ve said previously, heâ€™s definitely not my cup of tea but in the context of what heâ€™s dealing with I think heâ€™s playing a decent defensive game.

I donâ€™t like him or his politics but I grudgingly respect his battling qualities.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			May was states(wo)man like and got owned. The House is a bear pit at present, from all sides. And youâ€™re right, no one comes out with much credit. I feel heâ€™s fighting from the back foot because he has no majority.

As Iâ€™ve said previously, heâ€™s definitely not my cup of tea but in the context of what heâ€™s dealing with I think heâ€™s playing a decent defensive game.

I donâ€™t like him or his politics but I grudgingly respect his battling qualities.
		
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Heâ€™s definitely fighting, but I see him causing more division which in the short term isnâ€™t going to help him.
Heâ€™s trying very hard to be seen as the â€œman of the peopleâ€ and if anything heâ€™s started running his election campaign, promising the world and yet to deliver anything.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a precious crowd of Twazzocks, oh dear Boris said Surrender and Humbug.  It was pathetic seeing them work themselves up into a froth.
		
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Do you not see the danger in some of the words? Maybe itâ€™s my military background but words like â€œtraitorâ€ â€œsurrenderâ€ etc are words used in war.

Look at the connotations of surrender and no surrender and how it was used in N Ireland.

Words have consequences and Iâ€™m sure dialling the tone back a bit would benefit all sides.

One of the worst for his language is McDonnell and he needs calling out as well.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s definitely fighting, but I see him causing more division which in the short term isnâ€™t going to help him.
Heâ€™s trying very hard to be seen as the â€œman of the peopleâ€ and if anything heâ€™s started running his election campaign, promising the world and yet to deliver anything.
		
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"More division..." What do you think May suffered? 

As for running his election campaign now, what do you think Corbyn is doing? Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what he does in the eyes of many people, he's wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"More division..." What do you think May suffered?

As for running his election campaign now, what do you think Corbyn is doing? Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what he does in the eyes of many people, he's wrong.
		
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I need him to do right! I want a deal.

Heâ€™s damaged the tories more than May ever did, and united the opposition, thatâ€™s one thing I didnâ€™t think weâ€™d see.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you not see the danger in some of the words? Maybe itâ€™s my military background but words like â€œtraitorâ€ â€œsurrenderâ€ etc are words used in war.

Look at the connotations of surrender and no surrender and how it was used in N Ireland.

Words have consequences and Iâ€™m sure dialling the tone back a bit would benefit all sides.

One of the worst for his language is McDonnell and he needs calling out as well.
		
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Words have connotations that depend on the context they are used, as a military man you will know how the 'F' word can be used for a whole spectrum of meanings depending on the context.  The 'F'ing things 'F'ing well 'F'ed is a typical case.  When he used the term 'Surrender' in context to the 'Ben Law' he wasn't refering to military situations, he was refering to the disadvantage it put the UK in with obtaining a good deal and they all knew this but preferred to turn on the amateur dramatics and feign offense.  This type of banter happens week in week out in parliament without this kind of sensationalist heart pouring.

PS: I also have a military background, albeit not as extensive as yours and in a different Service (More Senior though ðŸ˜‰)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Words have connotations that depend on the context they are used, as a military man you will know how the 'F' word can be used for a whole spectrum of meanings depending on the context.  The 'F'ing things 'F'ing well 'F'ed is a typical case.  When he used the term 'Surrender' in context to the 'Ben Law' he wasn't refering to military situations, he was refering to the disadvantage it put the UK in with obtaining a good deal and they all knew this but preferred to turn on the amateur dramatics and feign offense.  This type of banter happens week in week out in parliament without this kind of sensationalist heart pouring.

PS: I also have a military background, albeit not as extensive as yours and in a different Service (More Senior though ðŸ˜‰)
		
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The issue is the words are being used by the crazies on the street, they are not being confined to the HoC.

Have you seen the news today about the serving soldier tweeting to a Labour MP about â€œBlood on our streetsâ€ and the MP will â€œPerishâ€ when the civil war comes.

Both sides have a part to play in this and itâ€™s very easy for words to be twisted.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Words have connotations that depend on the context they are used, as a military man you will know how the 'F' word can be used for a whole spectrum of meanings depending on the context.  The 'F'ing things 'F'ing well 'F'ed is a typical case.  When he used the term 'Surrender' in context to the 'Ben Law' he wasn't refering to military situations, he was refering to the disadvantage it put the UK in with obtaining a good deal and they all knew this but preferred to turn on the amateur dramatics and feign offense.  This type of banter happens week in week out in parliament without this kind of sensationalist heart pouring.

PS: I also have a military background, albeit not as extensive as yours and in a different Service (More Senior though ðŸ˜‰)
		
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Well said. Its about context. Earlier today we surrendered a good lead in a bowling comp against Egham. No one was in the least bit affronted when we discussed it at half time ---- we won by 1. Am I allowed to say won? It wasn't a battle, although we did battle back. Isn't it just pathetic. Everyone knows how words can be used in different contexts, and they recognise those contexts.

If intelligent MP's are misreading Boris' context, they are doing so on purpose, and its a damn shame more people don't see that.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The issue is the words are being used by the crazies on the street, they are not being confined to the HoC.

Have you seen the news today about the serving soldier tweeting to a Labour MP about â€œBlood on our streetsâ€ and the MP will â€œPerishâ€ when the civil war comes.

Both sides have a part to play in this and itâ€™s very easy for words to be twisted.

Click to expand...

And that's people deliberately using them to their own ends. Yes, I agree MP's/PM should be more careful but are they really responsible for the crazies that are already crazy?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And that's people deliberately using them to their own ends. Yes, I agree MP's/PM should be more careful but are they really responsible for the crazies that are already crazy?
		
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They carry some responsibilty, were that line is is debateable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Heâ€™s not having a good week.

Boris Johnson referred to police watchdog over Jennifer Arcuri claims
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...watchdog-over-jennifer-arcuri-claims-11821297


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Is Boris cutting his own hair.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s not having a good week.

Boris Johnson referred to police watchdog over Jennifer Arcuri claims
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...watchdog-over-jennifer-arcuri-claims-11821297

Click to expand...

The Liberal Elite are trying anything to stop Brexit.


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## User62651 (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s not having a good week.

Boris Johnson referred to police watchdog over Jennifer Arcuri claims
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...watchdog-over-jennifer-arcuri-claims-11821297

Click to expand...

Cynically timed for maximum damage ahead of Tory conference. However if he has done what's alleged then it has to be looked into by police. Police however should be asking accuser why he/she has sat on alleged evidence of criminality in public office for a number of years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The Liberal Elite is trying anything to stop Brexit.
		
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Maybe we should let the investigation take place before we start the conspiracy theories eh! Innocent until proven guilty and all that.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe we should let the investigation take place before we start the conspiracy theories eh! Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
		
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As previously suggested, why has it been sat on all this time and then brought up before the Tory Conference.  Its been weaponised, no doubt about it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Cynically timed for maximum damage ahead of Tory conference. However if he has done what's alleged then it has to be looked into by police. Police however should be asking accuser why he/she has sat on alleged evidence of criminality in public office for a number of years.
		
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Not sure it is, wasnâ€™t it the Sunday Times that ran with the story leading to the Council looking in to it?


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## Hitdaball (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The Liberal Elite are trying anything to stop Brexit.
		
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Yeah those liberal elites allowing Boris misuse public funds some years ago to benefit a close friend, allegedly, so that years later forum posts could brexitise it. 

Jesus. 
Christ.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Yeah those liberal elites allowing Boris misuse public funds some years ago to benefit a close friend, allegedly, so that years later forum posts could brexitise it.

Jesus.
Christ.
		
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Wait a minute, you are making some serious accusations there of someone that has not been found guilty and dropping in 'alegedly' doesn't detract from it. Your post is one of blind discrimination.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure it is, wasnâ€™t it the Sunday Times that ran with the story leading to the Council looking in to it?
		
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I doubt if the Sunday Times are responsible for digging into this.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I doubt if the Sunday Times are responsible for digging into this.
		
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Mate, seriously, do the research, it was The Sunday Times that ran it and Khan launched an investigation.

Hereâ€™s the Daily Mail link explaining the background.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....atchdog-friendship-model-Jennifer-Arcuri.html


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, seriously, do the research, it was The Sunday Times that ran it and Khan launched an investigation.
		
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The Times may have ran it but I suspect they were feed the information by someone with an axe to grind.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The Times may have ran it but I suspect they were feed the information by someone with an axe to grind.
		
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Ha Ha, brilliant, come on youâ€™re just trying to wind me up arenâ€™t you.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Wait a minute, you are making some serious accusations there of someone that has not been found guilty and dropping in 'alegedly' doesn't detract from it. Your post is one of blind discrimination.
		
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The muppetry continues unabated


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s not having a good week.

Boris Johnson referred to police watchdog over Jennifer Arcuri claims
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...watchdog-over-jennifer-arcuri-claims-11821297

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Oh, big shock. The GLA, led by mayor Khan, have asked the Police to look into.

Jeez H Christ! An ardent Remainer, and Labour stalwart has instigated an investigation against Boris... well, who'd have thought it. How bl00dy naive are people to read it at face value.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh, big shock. The GLA, led by mayor Khan, have asked the Police to look into.

Jeez H Christ! An ardent Remainer, and Labour stalwart has instigated an investigation against Boris... well, who'd have thought it. How bl00dy naive are people to read it at face value.
		
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Brian, They only looked in to it after The Sunday Times ran the story, are you honestly suggesting they should of just ignored the allegations?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hereâ€™s a couple of lines from the Daily Mail article:

â€œThe Government has since frozen a Â£100,000 grant to Ms Arcuri's company, Hacker House, pending a review.â€

He may or may not of been involved with any dodgy business but to be dismissing it and throwing accusations at others could be very premature.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			The muppetry continues unabated
		
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Thats correct kermit.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Brian, They only looked in to it after The Sunday Times ran the story, are you honestly suggesting they should of just ignored the allegations?
		
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Of course they shouldn't ignore the allegations. But they should also ask the question about who leaked it and their timing. It smacks of a deliberate swipe at Johnson for political gain rather than a search for justice. Its pathetic how the smears are coming out constantly and almost everyone is jumping all over them without asking why are they all coming out as they are.

I appreciate the guy is an absolute 'arris but some of this constant stuff is just political posturing.

Can you imagine tomorrow's headlines, "OMG, Boris stood on a crack in the pavement."

I agree he's Trump-lite but c'mon, if he's going to be nailed, at least lets do it with something worth doing it with.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The issue is the words are being used by the crazies on the street, they are not being confined to the HoC.

Have you seen the news today about the serving soldier tweeting to a Labour MP about â€œBlood on our streetsâ€ and the MP will â€œPerishâ€ when the civil war comes.

Both sides have a part to play in this and itâ€™s very easy for words to be twisted.

Click to expand...

I suggest you Stop diggingðŸ˜€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Of course they shouldn't ignore the allegations. But they should also ask the question about who leaked it and their timing. It smacks of a deliberate swipe at Johnson for political gain rather than a search for justice. Its pathetic how the smears are coming out constantly and almost everyone is jumping all over them without asking why are they all coming out as they are.

I appreciate the guy is an absolute 'arris but some of this constant stuff is just political posturing.

Can you imagine tomorrow's headlines, "OMG, Boris stood on a crack in the pavement."

I agree he's Trump-lite but c'mon, if he's going to be nailed, at least lets do it with something worth doing it with.
		
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That still doesnâ€™t mean Khan has done anything wrong, by all means ask The Sunday Times about the timing or the source.
Iâ€™m not aware if The Sunday Times has a particular axe to grind with him or why it was printed when it was.

Plus Iâ€™ve stated we should not judge him in this matter.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I suggest you Stop diggingðŸ˜€
		
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Oh good another Boris apologist.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That still doesnâ€™t mean Khan has done anything wrong, by all means ask The Sunday Times about the timing or the source.
Iâ€™m not aware if The Sunday Times has a particular axe to grind with him or why it was printed when it was.

Plus Iâ€™ve stated we should not judge him in this matter.
		
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Isn't that just being a little naive? Khan and timing? Surely you've got to the ask the question, why all this now?

Boris is a beleaguered PM with no majority and the sharks are circling. I can think of a number of PM's who have either reached the end of their span or haven't had the support of their own party/Parliament, and they've been absolutely hounded.

TBH, I see no different here AND I'm no Boris supporter in the slightest.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh good another Boris apologist.

Click to expand...

How many does that make? I'm not apologising for him, he's either guilty or not but as no investigation has been carried out he is currently innocent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't that just being a little naive? Khan and timing? Surely you've got to the ask the question, why all this now?

Boris is a beleaguered PM with no majority and the sharks are circling. I can think of a number of PM's who have either reached the end of their span or haven't had the support of their own party/Parliament, and they've been absolutely hounded.

TBH, I see no different here AND I'm no Boris supporter in the slightest.
		
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I genuinely do not see how Khanâ€™s role in this can be questioned without any evidence, you basing on it on a hunch, I accept you could be right, but reading through all the articles you are genuinely the first person I have seen or heard question his role in it.
Why would The Sunday Times sit on it, Iâ€™m more intrigued if they have an issue with him.
Thereâ€™s obviously worries about the Lady in question for the Government to freeze the grant on the back of the article as well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How many does that make? I'm not apologising for him, he's either guilty or not but as no investigation has been carried out he is currently innocent.
		
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Were have I said anything different, Iâ€™ve said we shouldnâ€™t judge him.

Any comment on your Sunday Times question?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Were have I said anything different, Iâ€™ve said we shouldnâ€™t judge him.

Any comment on your Sunday Times question?
		
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Please not again. What question?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please not again. What question?
		
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Why you doubted the source as The Sunday Times? Like I asked Hobbit, Iâ€™m intrigued to know if they have a particular axe to grind?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why you doubted the source as The Sunday Times? Like I asked Hobbit, Iâ€™m intrigued to know if they have a particular axe to grind?
		
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They are into selling newspapers, its not their axe but whoever feed them the lead.


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## Hobbit (Sep 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I genuinely do not see how Khanâ€™s role in this can be questioned without any evidence, you basing on it on a hunch, I accept you could be right, but reading through all the articles you are genuinely the first person I have seen or heard question his role in it.
Why would The Sunday Times sit on it, Iâ€™m more intrigued if they have an issue with him.
Thereâ€™s obviously worries about the Lady in question for the Government to freeze the grant on the back of the article as well.
		
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I question Khan's motives for the very same reason I'd question Johnson's motives, and any other senior politician you care to name. I've seen Khan in action in London mayoral meetings. He is a slimy, arrogant conniving snake. And because of that I don't take what he says at face value. He may, on this occasion, be right, and I have no problem with an investigation. But I just find it hard to believe Khan and the GLA are being altruistic in this.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/09/26/ma...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is Boris cutting his own hair.
		
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Have to say I wondered that! However, it seems to me that it's (marginally) less scruffy than in the past, and is 'lanker' too; seemingly from being thinned out - naturally or deliberately. That bald patch on his crown seems to be expanding too and I expect that area to grow rapidly too! Maybe he should use his mate Donald's haircare team!


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The Liberal Elite are trying anything to stop Brexit.
		
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Do you keep pigeons too? Or just provide their holes.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do you keep pigeons too? Or just provide their holes.
		
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Never had any deep feelings for them, they're a bit of a pest actually, feeding on others leftovers and pooing on anything that takes their fancy.  Now who do they remind me of


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2019)

I imagine this would have been front page on the BBC had it been against Labour or Remainers...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/utterly-vile-anti-tory-banner-111726212.html

Only headline I see is still the "humbug" story they're perpetually running. As much as I dislike BJ this quite obvious slur campaign is quite shocking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 29, 2019)

Sunday Times isnâ€™t running the humbug headline.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 29, 2019)

Goodness me. with headlines like that Johnson seems the have lost the Murdoch endorsement fairly quickly.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me. with headlines like that Johnson seems the have lost the Murdoch endorsement fairly quickly.
		
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No - they only report the news ðŸ˜†


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 29, 2019)

So Boris makes a big song and dance about 40 new hospitals and today the Health Minister says itâ€™s only 6, but there will be 34 more in the future when theyâ€™ve worked out were the money will come from.


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## User62651 (Sep 29, 2019)

More accusations about our embattled PM, the paralells with Trump are uncanny. Revenge is a dish best served very cold indeed it seems!
Hancock tying himself in knots over it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...al&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_politics


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## Foxholer (Sep 29, 2019)

At last! Boris explains/admits his 'humbug' screw up! As I thought at the time, it was about the first part of Paula Sherriff's rant! Had he explained at, or soon after, the time that it was that 'misunderstanding', I believe there would have been far less fuss. However, in typical BoJo style, his 'unprepared' reaction caused him 'major' problems. He continues to be very rapid on replies, but often too slow on thinking before replying!


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			At last! Boris explains/admits his 'humbug' screw up! As I thought at the time, it was about the first part of Paula Sherriff's rant! Had he explained at, or soon after, the time that it was that 'misunderstanding', I believe there would have been far less fuss. However, in typical BoJo style, his 'unprepared' reaction caused him 'major' problems. He continues to be very rapid on replies, but often too slow on thinking before replying!
		
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You mean he's had time to think up an excuse ðŸ¤£
Besides he has a bit more than that to worry about now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2019)

Vultures circling already

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...to-get-brexit-deal/ar-AAI1QN0?ocid=spartandhp

The Tory Party Conference seems to have a very strange atmosphere about it, very unsure, subdued and hesitant.

Ultra Unionist Scotsman newspaper  sticking up for the Queen, as you would expect.https://www.scotsman.com/news/queen-sought-advice-on-sacking-prime-minister-source-claims-1-5013774


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 30, 2019)

Just waiting for that paid speech from that psycho Greta kid to have her say on Boris and the importance of the European Union.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Just waiting for that paid speech from that psycho Greta kid to have her say on Boris and the importance of the European Union.
		
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Mocking someone with mental health problems.........classy.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mocking someone with mental health problems.........classy.

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Didnâ€™t know, would still describe her as a psycho, different mental ability or not. 
As sheâ€™s in the limelight Iâ€™m sure she will appear with something scripted to say sometime soon, along with a few more women claiming to be groped. 

Project Smear.


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## IanM (Sep 30, 2019)

If you want "classy," Police meant to be investigating the effigies hanging from bridge in Manchester.  Folk following the specific guidance of Jon McDonnell.  Maybe he should be in the dock?

Mind you, his boss acted rather strangely after the Tory Conference in 1984.  I guess that's the sort of folk we are dealing with


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			More accusations about our embattled PM, *the paralells with Trump are uncanny*. Revenge is a dish best served very cold indeed it seems!
Hancock tying himself in knots over it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...al&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_politics

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...and how long before we hear Johnson and #10 complaining about this all being a 'witch-hunt'...


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## IanM (Sep 30, 2019)

Well, if you can't win at the Ballot Box, you need to try circumvent it by other means....


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			If you want "classy," Police meant to be investigating the effigies hanging from bridge in Manchester.  Folk following the specific guidance of Jon McDonnell.  Maybe he should be in the dock?

Mind you, his boss acted rather strangely after the Tory Conference in 1984.  I guess that's the sort of folk we are dealing with
		
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Jings there is no doubt that you are the top man of whataboutry


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## User62651 (Sep 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			Well, if you can't win at the Ballot Box, you need to try circumvent it by other means.... 

Click to expand...

Brexiteers are circumventing what was voted on in 2016 too, they were offered a deal to leave the EU and rejected it for a harder Brexit that was not on the cards in 2016. It simply asked Leave or Remain, nothing more. May's deal had us as no longer a member state of EU, so it was leaving. Johnson and Rees-Mogg both voted for May's deal 3rd time round too. They've changed their minds clearly now BJ has wormed his way into power (of sorts), perhaps lots of other people have changed their minds too. Let's find out!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings there is no doubt that you are the top man of whataboutry
		
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Totally agree.

I also agree McDonnell and Corbyn should of been in the â€œdockâ€ years ago, but was confused how his answer deflected from the classy comment.

Must mean boris has always acted with class


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## IanM (Sep 30, 2019)

Whataboutry demonstrates your hypocrisy, therefore "so be it!"


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Brexiteers are circumventing what was voted on in 2016 too, they were offered a deal to leave the EU and rejected it for a harder Brexit that was not on the cards in 2016. It simply asked Leave or Remain, nothing more. May's deal had us as no longer a member state of EU, so it was leaving. Johnson and Rees-Mogg both voted for May's deal 3rd time round too. They've changed their minds clearly now BJ has wormed his way into power (of sorts), perhaps lots of other people have changed their minds too. Let's find out!

Click to expand...

Are you saying that any deal, even a bad deal should be accepted? I have no problem with any deal being knocked back if its deemed to be a bad deal. And don't forget, the vast majority of MP's are Remainers, and its pretty obvious from the numbers that voted against May's deal that it was Remainers, not Brexiteers that kicked it back.

I'm all for the people deciding. Let there be a GE, and lets see where the country stands. Didn't that happen in June '16?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Having just spent a week in Scotland I did not sense any love for Johnson and such as Rees-Mogg and the rest of his ilk.  Indeed I was really surprised at what a couple we met up with told me.

Originally from Barrhead - Jim and Maggie had lived in England for many moons - Jim having a successful career with Shell - until 3 years ago when on retiring they moved from Guildford to Haddington.  Jim told me that - although he was by inclination and previous voting a Conservative - with Johnson, Brexit and the mess in Westminster and what he was hearing - his heart was telling him to vote Yes in a future indy ref.  He could not really believe his feelings - though he would still ask any Yes Campaign - 'show me the numbers'.

Now if Jim and Maggie are in any way representative of at least a good proportion of professional couples then the Unionists have problems.

And others?  Well when the Supreme Court judgment was made I was walking just off Leith Walk and listening to the radio - I mentioned the outcome to my wife.  A young mum with child in pram we were walking past overheard - and (in the open way of many Scots  ) - stopped me and asked me if the judgement was made.  I confirmed and she cheered and said some other words that cannot be repeated here. Her dislike of Johnson and the Conservatives was not hidden...And at that we parted ways.

Of course - just a couple of random views - but views from quite far apart on the age and socio-economic spectrums.  And maybe not very representative - but it appears that Johnson and the Brexiacs will take a punt on it - and I think that most Scots believe that they don't actually care about the concerns of Yoonies - or indeed that much about Scotland.

I should note that Scotland's capital did not vote representative of all of Scotland in the EU referendum - with 74% voting to Remain...indeed the douce citizens of Morningside voted 90% Remain 

I know what the Yes/No polls are saying - but just a couple of observations on underlying feelings that may not yet be fully manifest.


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You mean he's had time to think up an excuse ðŸ¤£
Besides he has a bit more than that to worry about now.
		
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Actually, I think the *reason* was always fairly plain, but BJ's personality is such that he c/wouldn't admit that the blunder of his bluster about 'humbug' comment was poorly 'timed'. It seems, to me, likely that making that (humbug) comment had been pre-planned and he was waiting for an 'appropriate' time to use it as a reply. He just didn't get the 'appropriate' timing right!

Oh, and FWIW, I believe there'll be some more daft comments by him - until he learns to resist 'off the cuff' replies.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

Dear me, lady comes forward after 20 years - not political - pull the other one.


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## User62651 (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are you saying that any deal, even a bad deal should be accepted? I have no problem with any deal being knocked back if its deemed to be a bad deal. And don't forget, the vast majority of MP's are Remainers, and its pretty obvious from the numbers that voted against May's deal that it was Remainers, not Brexiteers that kicked it back.

I'm all for the people deciding. Let there be a GE, and lets see where the country stands. Didn't that happen in June '16?
		
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No easy answers, guess that's why we are where we are. Water under bridge but May blew her working majority in Commons with a gamble GE that backfired on her. Govt problems really started there. Why did she lose that majority - lots of conjecture about it which we could all argue about, I think the young vote finally mobilised and that was largely anti Brexit.
Unconvinced a GE will solve this, a sample poll lead in overall voting intention doesn't extrapolate into Commons seats numbers with FPTP. 2017 proved that.


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No easy answers, guess that's why we are where we are. Water under bridge but May blew her working majority in Commons with a gamble GE that backfired on her. Govt problems really started there. Why did she lose that majority - lots of conjecture about it which we could all argue about, I think the young vote finally mobilised and that was largely anti Brexit.
Unconvinced a GE will solve this, a sample poll lead in overall voting intention doesn't extrapolate into Commons seats numbers with FPTP. 2017 proved that.
		
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I think you're right on your last 2 points. Corbyn mobilised the young, but also with the added promises on tuition fees. The next GE will almost certainly revolve around Brexit, which is a shame as there are so many other issues. Will it be a hung parliament because of that? I think you could be right but with 30+% of Labour voters previously voting Leave, who will they vote for? And that's without the polarising impact of a Corbyn/far left leadership. 20+% of LibDems voted Leave, who will they vote for? Is the hard stance on Brexit good for the LibDems? And over 60% of Tories voted Leave, and where will their next vote go?

Hung Parliament, probably. But there's also some room for big swings in there. I wouldn't bet on anything.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Dear me, lady comes forward after 20 years - not political - pull the other one.
		
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For god sake donâ€™t you start wearing a tin foil hat.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For god sake donâ€™t you start wearing a tin foil hat. 

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Bollocked for not wearing my bone dome at times so hats aren't my thing   However one has to wonder why it's taken twenty years, her new boyfriends a bit of a momentum boy and well known Jurno allegedly.


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## patricks148 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bollocked for not wearing my bone dome at times so hats aren't my thing  However one has to wonder why it's taken twenty years, her new boyfriends a bit of a momentum boy and well known Jurno allegedly.
		
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doesn't mean he didn't do it though does it?


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			doesn't mean he didn't do it though does it?
		
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Nope and providing there was no sexual assault or breaking of any law why is it news. I thought the days of people claiming these things had come to an end by the so called respected media without proof. These sort of allegations have cost us via the BBC a lot of money.


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nope and providing there was no sexual assault or breaking of any law why is it news. I thought the days of people claiming these things had come to an end by the so called respected media without proof. These sort of allegations have cost us via the BBC a lot of money.
		
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Still inappropriate behaviour.  It not an allegation made on the BBC either.


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## patricks148 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nope and providing there was no sexual assault or breaking of any law why is it news. I thought the days of people claiming these things had come to an end by the so called respected media without proof. These sort of allegations have cost us via the BBC a lot of money.
		
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so women who get touched up should keep quite about it?


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so women who get touched up should keep quite about it?
		
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Not sure I said that but if that's your take and floats your boat crack on.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Still inappropriate behaviour.  It not an allegation made on the BBC either.
		
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It was raised on BBC Breakfast this morning.


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## patricks148 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure I said that but if that's your take and floats your boat crack on.
		
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you are calling into question her motives and if it even happened and asking why its news?

its news because the guy is PM, how do you know it wasn't brought up at the time?

the guy is a well known philander, and people should be made aware this type of behavior is not accepetable and the his isn't just a misunderstood buffoon


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you are calling into question her motives and if it even happened and asking why its news?

its news because the guy is PM, how do you know it wasn't brought up at the time?

the guy is a well known philander, and people should be made aware this type of behavior is not accepetable and the his isn't just a misunderstood buffoon
		
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You don't like him then.


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## patricks148 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You don't like him then.
		
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what my opinion of him got to do with it?


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It was raised on BBC Breakfast this morning.
		
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Yes as it's news . The original allegation was made elsewhere.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes as it's news . The original allegation was made elsewhere.
		
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Yep, if the guys such a disgusting sexual predator perhaps she should have gone to the police and started a criminal investigation.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what my opinion of him got to do with it?
		
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Because your entitled to it and I welcome it it's just on this matter our opinions differ in the motives.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bollocked for not wearing my bone dome at times so hats aren't my thing  However one has to wonder why it's taken twenty years, her new boyfriends a bit of a momentum boy and well known Jurno allegedly.
		
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I also have my doubts over the timing and she came out with this yesterday in her first article for The Sunday Times who are currently running another story on him. So Iâ€™m more inclined to think itâ€™s the Times rather than anyone else who is leading the expose on him.

Another point on the â€œwhy itâ€™s taken 20 yearsâ€ I seem to recall every time Corbyn is brought up the shouts of terrorist sympathiser go out and pictures of him from nearly 50 years ago of him meeting Adams are produced, he has on many times explained his meetings and that he was searching for peace, nobody seems to have an issue putting an amount of time on that or accepting his explanation.

I hate Corbyn, I wish he was not the leader and I donâ€™t believe he supports our Military. I am also not equating sexual harassment to sympathising with terrorists, I just find it amusing we complain or are sceptical about time periods when it suits our beliefs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I also have my doubts over the timing and she came out with this yesterday in her first article for The Sunday Times who are currently running another story on him. So Iâ€™m more inclined to think itâ€™s the Times rather than anyone else who is leading the expose on him.

Another point on the â€œwhy itâ€™s taken 20 yearsâ€ I seem to recall every time Corbyn is brought up the shouts of terrorist sympathiser go out and pictures of him from nearly 50 years ago of him meeting Adams are produced, he has on many times explained his meetings and that he was searching for peace, nobody seems to have an issue putting an amount of time on that or accepting his explanation.

I hate Corbyn, I wish he was not the leader and I donâ€™t believe he supports our Military. I am also not equating sexual harassment to sympathising with terrorists, I just find it amusing we complain or are sceptical about time periods when it suits our beliefs.
		
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...and I was wondering why on Friday the Daily Telegraph was splashing on it's front page a story about how Major 'schemed' against Thatcher prior to her resignation (*29*yrs ago!).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...john-majors-role-margaret-thatchers-downfall/

Could this have been related in any way to the position Major has been taking on Brexit, especially over the last couple of weeks, and what he might be involved in over the next two weeks in an attempt to ensure UK does not leave on 31/10 without a deal agreed.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I was wondering why last week the Daily Telegraph was splashing on it's front page a story about how Major 'schemed' against Thatcher prior to her resignation (29yrs ago!).  Could it have been related in any way to the position Major has been taking on Brexit, especially over the last couple of weeks, and what he might be involved in over the next two weeks.
		
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Or perhaps they were making the point that no matter who the politicians they will to stab each other in the back (not literally honest) to get what they want and to further their standing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or perhaps they were making the point that no matter who the politicians they will to stab each other in the back (not literally honest) to get what they want and to further their standing.
		
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Maybe - but as this was all basically known - maybe it being splashed on Friday suggests an attempt to undermine Major in the eyes of the Thatcher-lovers out there, and those non-Thatcher lovers looking for any and every reason to attack Major.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - but as this was all basically known - maybe it being splashed on Friday suggests an attempt to undermine Major in the eyes of the Thatcher-lovers out there, and those non-Thatcher lovers looking for any and every reason to attack Major.
		
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I would have thought that Thatcher lovers already knew that he had stabbed her in the back. He dodged a key vote with 'toothache' when he was Foreign Sec/Chancellor to her which few have forgiven. The story probably was an attempt to discredit him, actually little doubt about it, but more to the casual voter.

Ultimately, if you want to discredit him you only need two words, Edwina Currie . Throw in Maastricht if you really want to twist the knife but I don't think John Major is held in high regard with the faithful.

Back to Boris, has anything come out that any of us were not aware of? Without knowing details surely we all knew the type of person he was / is? The Tory MP's and members all must have been aware and still wanted him. This is not a defence but I am surprised at the surprise around these stories.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - but as this was all basically known - maybe it being splashed on Friday suggests an attempt to undermine Major in the eyes of the Thatcher-lovers out there, and those non-Thatcher lovers looking for any and every reason to attack Major.
		
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Major managed to do that all on his own


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2019)

Another LBJ claim easily found out as lies.
Does this man ever tell the truth.

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-doesnt-have-highest-taxes-europe/


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Another LBJ claim easily found out as lies.
Does this man ever tell the truth.

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-doesnt-have-highest-taxes-europe/

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I though he said "some" of the highest taxes in Europe.


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## Mudball (Sep 30, 2019)

You gotta give him credit.. he has turned on the money taps and planted a forest of magic money tree.. the giveaways he is promising are a good distraction from Brexit and is aimed to seduce people away from Labourâ€™s and Lib Demâ€™s weak record


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I though he said "some" of the highest taxes in Europe.
		
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Scotland also has some of the lowest taxes in the UK.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scotland also has some of the lowest taxes in the UK.
		
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It has but as normal, Doom either doesn't know or has put a false spin on the piece.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 30, 2019)

Perhaps the squeezing of an upper thigh is reported to try and hide the reported alledged American woman story and possible financial misconduct?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It has but as normal, *Doom *either doesn't know or has put a false spin on the piece.
		
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I'll call that out as name-calling...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would have thought that Thatcher lovers already knew that he had stabbed her in the back. He dodged a key vote with 'toothache' when he was Foreign Sec/Chancellor to her which few have forgiven. The story probably was an attempt to discredit him, actually little doubt about it, but more to the casual voter.

Ultimately, if you want to discredit him you only need two words, Edwina Currie . Throw in Maastricht if you really want to twist the knife but I don't think John Major is held in high regard with the faithful.

Back to Boris, has anything come out that any of us were not aware of? Without knowing details surely we all knew the type of person he was / is? The Tory MP's and members all must have been aware and still wanted him. This is not a defence but I am surprised at the surprise around these stories.
		
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In answer to your last paragraph, itâ€™s not whether people knew or it was rumoured he had wandering hands it was more he wasnâ€™t the PM of the Country at the time, I donâ€™t think any of them are whiter than white, but we donâ€™t want our PM, regardless of Party/Gender etc being at risk from blackmail etc from people.
Let the investigation go ahead and if heâ€™s got nothing to hide they wonâ€™t find anything, but if he did use his position or authority for favour then it brings his integrity in to question.


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you are calling into question her motives and if it even happened and asking why its news?

its news because the guy is PM, how do you know it wasn't brought up at the time?

the guy is a well known philander, and people should be made aware this type of behavior is not accepetable and the his isn't just a misunderstood buffoon
		
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And not long ago he was Mayor of London. Did she wait knowing he would become PM? Maybe she's just found the courage to come forward. Equally, isn't it a bit strange that all the flak is coming out of the woodwork at the same time.


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll call that out as *rather appropriate* name-calling...

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FTFY!


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## drdel (Sep 30, 2019)

I always find these stories a little disquieting: the behavioural norms for young people 20 years ago, and even more 40 years ago!

Most ladies at that time would soon issue a firm slap if the 'decency mark' was crossed. Judging past actions by today's norms ain't right.

I'm not saying what happened is right or wrong just that an awful lot has happened in 20 years, That's apart from the fact these people seem to have far better memories than I of 20 year old occurrences!


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

Mr Pestons laughing all the way to his next Momentum meeting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			I always find these stories a little disquieting: the behavioural norms for young people 20 years ago, and even more 40 years ago!

Most ladies at that time would soon issue a firm slap if the 'decency mark' was crossed. Judging past actions by today's norms ain't right.

I'm not saying what happened is right or wrong just that an awful lot has happened in 20 years, That's apart from the fact these people seem to have far better memories than I of 20 year old occurrences!
		
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Totally agree, my confusion (not doubting the Lady) is the paper that printed the story, I didnâ€™t think The Sunday Times/Murdoch would run a story like this about a tory PM.
Itâ€™s more suited to the red tops and alike.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Mr Pestons laughing all the way to his next Momentum meeting.
		
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Momentum and The Sunday Times would be strange bedfellows.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Momentum and The Sunday Times would be strange bedfellows.
		
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You would think but his recent bedfellow writes for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You would think but his recent bedfellow writes for them.
		
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Well, sort of, bu that was her first article for them in her new job.
The editor must of known?


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Well, sort of, bu that was her first article for them in her new job.
The editor must of known?
		
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True, it's never been a secret.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In answer to your last paragraph, itâ€™s not whether people knew or it was rumoured he had wandering hands it was more he wasnâ€™t the PM of the Country at the time, I donâ€™t think any of them are whiter than white, but we donâ€™t want our PM, regardless of Party/Gender etc being at risk from blackmail etc from people.
Let the investigation go ahead and if heâ€™s got nothing to hide they wonâ€™t find anything, but if he did use his position or authority for favour then it brings his integrity in to question.
		
Click to expand...

He's stuffed then ðŸ˜


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, my confusion (not doubting the Lady) is the paper that printed the story, I didnâ€™t think The Sunday Times/Murdoch would run a story like this about a tory PM.
Itâ€™s more suited to the red tops and alike.
		
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Well, Murdoch no longer has News of The World as a tool for that sort of story and The Sun is probably too pro-BJ/Brexit currently - though that could easily change.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			True, it's never been a secret.
		
Click to expand...

This morning on interviews on BBC and LBC he denied any impropriety in respect of his behaviour at the dinner table and with the American lady.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This morning on interviews on BBC and LBC he denied any impropriety in respect of his behaviour at the dinner table and with the American lady.
		
Click to expand...


In the typical He said, She said scenario.  Cannot be proven either way, there will always be those that choose sides and believe what they want without proof.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In the typical He said, She said scenario.  Cannot be proven either way, there will always be those that choose sides and believe what they want without proof.
		
Click to expand...

Of course.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In the typical He said, She said scenario.  Cannot be proven either way, there will always be those that choose sides and believe what they want without proof.
		
Click to expand...

Tis all a bit questionable.

As I understand it she claims that ...
she told another lady at the time; who says she didn't
his hand was high and squeezing the flesh high on her thigh - might be a hard with a in dress/skirt in place and while sitting adjacent
started new job
a mature single lady, recently becamePreston's partner
no mention when BJ was touting to become London Mayor
no mention at time of touting to lead the Tories a few months ago
supposed to support Remaining.

All circumstantial I agree


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## IanM (Oct 1, 2019)

London Mayor... nothing
Multiple elections...  Nothing
Becomes PM.... nothing

....standing up to EU.... sudden loud noises.....   and based on the company she keeps, you have to wonder.  Sorry.


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## Beezerk (Oct 1, 2019)

I'm surprised he isn't suing for libel.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I'm surprised he isn't suing for libel.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because proof on either side would be hard to prove.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 1, 2019)

All the thigh touching could be a distraction from the Arcuri affair.

Who incidentally has had her personal laptop stolen, which incidentally contained all the details of her business and personal stuff with the PM.

Although seeing as how she has a cyber security business and as an expert technology consultant to senior government figures sheâ€™ll have had her laptop backed up.


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## Beezerk (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Possibly because proof on either side would be hard to prove.
		
Click to expand...

More a shot across the bows type move I was thinking.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 28302

Click to expand...

You and I know that these things are only successful if volunteers can be found to assist and unfortunately, volunteering is not something that is very well supported these days.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179043017338032135Looks like things are kicking off at the Tory Conference.
The party of law and order [not].


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m no fan of the PM (as you may of guessed) but how rude is this woman!
Please ignore first vid, Iâ€™m on about the Coffee cup one!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179026235600580608

Click to expand...

The twitter guys have had a bit of fun with that and superimposed 'something else' for the coffee cup.
Had Lady Doon in absolute stitches.

How many folk wondered if the words 'don't you know who I am' were involved in the Clifton- Brown fraca.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just imagine the fuss that would of happened if heâ€™d of been that rude to a woman.
Does make you wonder just whoâ€™s actually in charge.
		
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OMG! He "surrendered" his cup...


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m no fan of the PM (as you may of guessed) but how rude is this woman!
Please ignore first vid, Iâ€™m on about the Coffee cup one!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179026235600580608

Click to expand...

She is an aide, obviously, and part of her job is to prevent embarrassing photo moments where the PM could be compromised. It could be a seemingly innocent picture or sign in the background, in this case it is Boris being caught with a non environmentally friendly coffee cup. She needed to get rid quickly and without fuss. No time for niceties, that's her job. The bloke who gave it to Boris will have been given a roasting for that.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Except it was live on TV and made him look like a scolded little boy.
I understand an Aideâ€™s job, but one Aide hands him a coffee(he may of been handed it from someone else) the PM says thank you and is ambushed by the ignorant jobs worth.
She could of politely asked him for it instead of snatching it!
Hate bad manners me and I donâ€™t mean the band.
I need to lie down I felt sorry for him.

Click to expand...

I see it as LT sees it, especially as it appears to be a branded cup. Imagine the photo blown up so that everyone sees the brand. "Boris Johnson supports Starbucks, who only pay Â£1 in Corporation Tax." The press and the opposition parties would have a field day.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Except it was live on TV and made him look like a scolded little boy.
I understand an Aideâ€™s job, but one Aide hands him a coffee(he may of been handed it from someone else) the PM says thank you and is ambushed by the ignorant jobs worth.
She could of politely asked him for it instead of snatching it!
Hate bad manners me and I donâ€™t mean the band.
I need to lie down I felt sorry for him.

Click to expand...

I know where you are coming from but honestly Boris or anyone in his team wont see it as bad manners. She has a split second to get that off him before a snapper gets the picture. Boris has a whole host of things going through his mind, possibly ðŸ˜, and she is there to deal with the little things that could trip him up. 

It is not a normal situation they are in. Perhaps think of it being like a military set up, please and thank you are temporarily suspended but no one takes offence. 

Hope you are fully recovered by the way ðŸ˜„


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## SocketRocket (Oct 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The twitter guys have had a bit of fun with that and superimposed 'something else' for the coffee cup.
Had Lady Doon in absolute stitches.

How many folk wondered if the words 'don't you know who I am' were involved in the Clifton- Brown fraca.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't have been so funny for you both if it had been Sturgeon. Oh how we would hear the cries of anti Scottish dirty tricks.


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## Beezerk (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m no fan of the PM (as you may of guessed) but how rude is this woman!
Please ignore first vid, Iâ€™m on about the Coffee cup one!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179026235600580608

Click to expand...

I've just seen the full screen "unedited for Twitter" version of this on BBC breakfast. There's smiles all around in the proper video, just goes to show how a bit of editing can show something in a completely incorrect light.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

LBJ's 'new' NI plan seems to be to give NI a huge trading advantage over rUK.
I can see that  working out really well in Cardiff, Liverpool and Glasgow.


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## IanM (Oct 2, 2019)

Apparently Whataboutary isnt allowed.  Shame as it is funny!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178831262003470338


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## IanM (Oct 2, 2019)

No, just adding a little balance.... as ever.

Not a fan of his to be honest, but to his credit, he is hated by the right people!


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## IanM (Oct 2, 2019)

Even Corbyn's hands have to fly off target to the left! 

Ah, the further left folk go, their capacity for satire decreases proportionally......


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The smell of desperation from the Boris fanboyâ€™s is tremendous. 

Click to expand...

Touch it in fact.

LBJ desperately waffling and spaffing the biggest load of gobbledegook at the mo.
He is going to save a wee bit of money from the EU on the backs of the hundreds of thousands that will lose their jobs in his no deal Brexit.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 2, 2019)

nice line from Boris 

https://order-order.com/2019/10/02/boris-bercow-forced-eat-testicle/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2019)

I missed Johnson's speech - the comedian was good though


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Balance? So Corbyn goes to high five Thornberry after a by-election win and she moved her hand and he hit her breast, accepted, apologised and moved on, all in public and on live TV.
Exactly the same circumstances as the PMâ€™s been accused of.

Click to expand...

You have to admit it was funnier than a coffee cup,  grabbing her boob and the look on his face when he did it ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£.
I can imagine the comments from some on here if Boris had done that to a woman.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

I wonder what made Arlene change her mind about the Irish Sea border.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 28305



Click to expand...

*There are two types of Labour Supporter*

*Ones that had Lobotomies and Naive Teenagers*

*Smell your trainers to see which one you are.*

*Don't get the Trots from a Trotsky. *


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have I touched a nerve?

Did you come up with these one liners yourself? I think theyâ€™re ace.

Click to expand...

Yes, all my own work and much better than a cut and paste job.  Seems to have  worked on you ðŸ˜œ


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*There are two types of Labour Supporter*

*Ones that had Lobotomies and Naive Teenagers*

*Smell your trainers to see which one you are.*

*Don't get the Trots from a Trotsky. *

Click to expand...

H'mm. From an 'unbiased' pov....Don't give up the 'day job' is the quote springs to mind for those! P24's quote at least had some sort of 'zing' to it with the 'con' connection.

And it seems to me there's a 'have' missing in the 2nd line - but maybe 'no have' is the problem!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Blew me away, never knew you were a comedian and a poet. ðŸ¤¥
		
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Pleased to have enlightened you.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. From an 'unbiased' pov....Don't give up the 'day job' is the quote sprins to mind for those! P24's quote at least had some sort of 'zing' to it with the 'con' connection.

And it seems to me there's a 'have' missing in the 2nd line - but maybe 'no have' is the problem!
		
Click to expand...

'Had' works perfectly.  The Lobotomey would have been a past medical procedure, as such the incumbent couldn't 'Have' a Lobotomey' they could only 'Have' a missing frontal Lobe.

Also, its 'springs to mind'  be careful with typos if you are the forum pedant ðŸ‘


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## pauljames87 (Oct 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*There are two types of Labour Supporter*

*Ones that had Lobotomies and Naive Teenagers*

*Smell your trainers to see which one you are.*

*Don't get the Trots from a Trotsky. *

Click to expand...

So those 2 little digs at each party both really sum up the nation.. morons 
Which is why they shouldn't be allowed a vote on such important decisions


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			So those 2 little digs at each party both really sum up the nation.. morons
Which is why they shouldn't be allowed a vote on such important decisions
		
Click to expand...

Sense of humour bypass. ðŸ¤©


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## Imurg (Oct 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sense of humour bypass. ðŸ¤©
		
Click to expand...

They're both amusing in their own way but there's a very large chunk of society who genuinely think that way. And their fervour is increasing
If everybody, and I mean you, me, the forum, the public and the politicians stopped trying to score points by using insults, making snide comments, deriding opinions and generally disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, pulled their respective heads out of their arses and actually thought about how this mess can be sorted out - whichever way - then it would have been accomplished months ago.
Instead, it seems, too many are just in it for political gain and the "thrill" of getting exposure because they've insulted someone.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sense of humour bypass. ðŸ¤©
		
Click to expand...

Indeed you have, your one was tumble weed material


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Indeed you have, your one was tumble weed material
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

Imurg said:



			They're both amusing in their own way but there's a very large chunk of society who genuinely think that way. And their fervour is increasing
If everybody, and I mean you, me, the forum, the public and the politicians stopped trying to score points by using insults, making snide comments, deriding opinions and generally disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, pulled their respective heads out of their arses and actually thought about how this mess can be sorted out - whichever way - then it would have been accomplished months ago.
Instead, it seems, too many are just in it for political gain and the "thrill" of getting exposure because they've insulted someone.
		
Click to expand...

I get your point and agree with the mess the country/Politicians have got into but lets not get overheated about some blokes on a Golf Forum.  Its just a bit of locker room banter and is being inflated out of all context.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2019)

Both pretty lack luster and tame, but it may offend some and IMO both need deleting by the respective posters but obviously it's up to them.


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## Mudball (Oct 3, 2019)

Not really about Boris but his side kick Patel.. must say I hated her party speech. Sounded condescending and doing all of us a favour by rolling back the mistakes of her previous govt. (and that cringing smirk ðŸ˜ )


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179050780608864261


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## bladeplayer (Oct 3, 2019)

Boris sticking by his guns hoping EU will refuse deal and extension . Therefore UK out with no deal but not taken out by him ?? Thoughts


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Boris sticking by his guns hoping EU will refuse deal and extension . Therefore UK out with no deal but not taken out by him ?? Thoughts
		
Click to expand...

I still think he would prefer a deal. I cant see how he would get away with a no deal with the way he has been stitched up by parliamentary remainers, maybe he has some loophole but with the way the establishment are against him its difficult to see it working.  Looks very much like we are heading for more can kicking ad nausiem.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I still think he would prefer a deal. I cant see how he would get away with a no deal with the way he has been stitched up by parliamentary remainers, maybe he has some loophole but with the way the establishment are against him its difficult to see it working.  Looks very much like we are heading for more can kicking ad nausiem.
		
Click to expand...

Can he continue if its an extension thp


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Can he continue if its an extension thp
		
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Im not sure. At some time soon we will need to have a general election, the outcome of this may allow him a number of options if he wins, if he loses then we will probably be heading for another referendum and I have no idea what that may lead to.


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## robinthehood (Oct 6, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ts-still-calling-johnson-boris-20191004189507


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I still think he would prefer a deal. I cant see how he would get away with a no deal with the way he has been stitched up by parliamentary remainers, maybe he has some loophole but with the way the establishment are against him its difficult to see it working.  Looks very much like we are heading for more can kicking ad nausiem.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think he cares about agreeing a Deal.  He just wants to be PM - the PM to lead the UK in it's battle to overcome the mess caused by the EU and Remoaners _forcing_ a No Deal Brexit on the UK.

He plonked a proposal in front of the EU that I suspect he knew they could not agree to - and now that the EU have pushed back he and his buddies are telling us the talks are _'close to breaking down'_ as EU unwilling to negotiate on his _'reasonable offer'_ - messages directed specifically at the Leave support.  And Johnson camp adds that according to Merkel _An EU-UK agreement is "essentially impossible not just now but ever" following the "clarifying" phone call._

As of course it would be were we to maintain our current stance in respect of, in particular, the customs union and the Irish border.  Of course the statement will be presented by Johnson as evidence that the EU was never going to let the UK leave the customs union.  And I am not sure that that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from what Johnson camp reports on what Merkel said.

How utterly depressing.


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## Old Skier (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think he cares about agreeing a Deal.  He just wants to be PM - the PM to lead the UK in it's battle to overcome the mess caused by the EU and Remoaners _forcing_ a No Deal Brexit on the UK.

He plonked a proposal in front of the EU that I suspect he knew they could not agree to - and now that the EU have pushed back he and his buddies are telling us the talks are _'close to breaking down'_ as EU unwilling to negotiate on his _'reasonable offer'_ - messages directed specifically at the Leave support.  And Johnson camp adds that according to Merkel _An EU-UK agreement is "essentially impossible not just now but ever" following the "clarifying" phone call._

As of course it would be were we to maintain our current stance in respect of, in particular, the customs union and the Irish border.  Of course the statement will be presented by Johnson as evidence that the EU was never going to let the UK leave the customs union.  And I am not sure that that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from what Johnson camp reports on what Merkel said.

How utterly depressing.
		
Click to expand...

It appears its Mrs Merkel pushing back with the EU suggesting that her position isn't there position. The Germans now not wishing to comment. Seems their negotiating position is as airy fairy as ours then.


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## Hobbit (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think he cares about agreeing a Deal.  He just wants to be PM - the PM to lead the UK in it's battle to overcome the mess caused by the EU and Remoaners _forcing_ a No Deal Brexit on the UK.

He plonked a proposal in front of the EU that I suspect he knew they could not agree to - and now that the EU have pushed back he and his buddies are telling us the talks are _'close to breaking down'_ as EU unwilling to negotiate on his _'reasonable offer'_ - messages directed specifically at the Leave support.  And Johnson camp adds that according to Merkel _An EU-UK agreement is "essentially impossible not just now but ever" following the "clarifying" phone call._

As of course it would be were we to maintain our current stance in respect of, in particular, the customs union and the Irish border.  Of course the statement will be presented by Johnson as evidence that the EU was never going to let the UK leave the customs union.  And I am not sure that that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from what Johnson camp reports on what Merkel said.

How utterly depressing.
		
Click to expand...

So you know he doesn't care about a deal, and you know he just wants to be PM. You know the details of the deal that the EU are making negative noises about...

The Euro Millions it at Â£190m tonight. Any chance of you "knowing" the numbers.

C'mon Hugh, you know as much as the next man in the street. Are you guilty of your own little project fear?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I*t appears its Mrs Merkel pushing back with the EU suggesting that her position isn't there position*. The Germans now not wishing to comment. Seems their negotiating position is as airy fairy as ours then.
		
Click to expand...

Sources?  Hasn't shown up in the echo chamber that is my twitter feed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2019)

The sooner Trump and Johnson are behind bars the better.
Both appear to be working very hard to get there,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So you know he doesn't care about a deal, and you know he just wants to be PM. You know the details of the deal that the EU are making negative noises about...

The Euro Millions it at Â£190m tonight. Any chance of you "knowing" the numbers.

C'mon Hugh, you know as much as the next man in the street. Are you guilty of your own little project fear?
		
Click to expand...

For goodness sake Bri - you know fine well that this is just a view and I am not pretending it to be a statement of fact.  

There is little factual we know about a No Deal future.  But I think can say for 100% certain that, for instance, if we leave with no deal agreed we will *immediately *lose some benefits that we have in respect of travel and work in the EU - and these will have a detrimental impact on me.  The motorway signs and radio ads tell us that.

What can Leave voters say today about leaving without a deal that will 100% certain provide me with *immediate *benefits that will at least balance out what I *know* I will lose.  And what *immediate *benefits will I have and feel that tell me what I have lost was worth losing...

Whenever anyone on here asks that simple question we get the supplied wit the usual top level potential benefits to the UK - but nothing that will immediately compensate me for what I am about to lose.

But I am past being angry with Johnson and his scheming crew - I just feel rather depressed and down about it all.  And that is a statement of fact.


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## Old Skier (Oct 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sources?  Hasn't shown up in the echo chamber that is my twitter feed.
		
Click to expand...

Was on the BBC web site


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Was on the BBC web site
		
Click to expand...

OK, I'll be listening to Brexitcast later tonight so I'm sure it will be in there.


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## Leftie (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			........ and these will have a detrimental impact on me

What can Leave voters say today about leaving without a deal that will 100% certain provide me with *immediate *benefits that will at least balance out what I *know *(Yes I do have inside knowledge of lottery numbers* *) I will lose.  And what *immediate *benefits will I have and feel that tell me what I have lost was worth losing...

Whenever anyone on here asks that simple question we get the supplied wit the usual top level potential benefits to the UK - but nothing that will immediately compensate me for what I am about to lose.
		
Click to expand...

And there was I thinking that I voted to leave for the future benefit of my children, grandchildren, and (if we haven't exterminated each other) many generations to come.  Perhaps some can see past their next bank statement, pay cheque, and myopic view and realise what has been happening over the last 40 years or so of lies.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And there was I thinking that I voted to leave for the future benefit of my children, grandchildren, and (if we haven't exterminated each other) many generations to come.  Perhaps some can see past their next bank statement, pay cheque, and myopic view and realise what has been happening over the last 40 years or so of lies.   

Click to expand...

Yep me me me, no consideration to a federal state and how the EU may change  and how that may affect those in the future.


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## Hobbit (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For goodness sake Bri - you know fine well that this is just a view and I am not pretending it to be a statement of fact. 

There is little factual we know about a No Deal future.  But I think can say for 100% certain that, for instance, if we leave with no deal agreed we will *immediately *lose some benefits that we have in respect of travel and work in the EU - and these will have a detrimental impact on me.  The motorway signs and radio ads tell us that.

What can Leave voters say today about leaving without a deal that will 100% certain provide me with *immediate *benefits that will at least balance out what I *know* I will lose.  And what *immediate *benefits will I have and feel that tell me what I have lost was worth losing...

Whenever anyone on here asks that simple question we get the supplied wit the usual top level potential benefits to the UK - but nothing that will immediately compensate me for what I am about to lose.

But I am past being angry with Johnson and his scheming crew - I just feel rather depressed and down about it all.  And that is a statement of fact.
		
Click to expand...

At least you finished with a statement of fact...

What grinds my gears Hugh is you post up your "facts" but when you are fact-checked you then, as you say above, admit its just your view. You didn't start the previous post I quoted with "IMO."

I agree with many of your opinions on the impact, although maybe not to the extreme Armageddon you suggest. But I fundamentally do not agree with posting up opinions as facts, e.g. you know Johnson "just wants to be PM." No, you don't know that. 

How about Johnson wants to be PM because he has a strong view on what is best for the UK. You don't have to agree with his view, I know I don't, but the statement is probably more accurate than your "just wants to be PM."


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is little factual we know about a No Deal future.  But I think can say for 100% certain that, for instance, if we leave with no deal agreed we will *immediately lose some benefits that we have in respect of travel and work in the EU - and these will have a detrimental impact on me. * The motorway signs and radio ads tell us that.
		
Click to expand...

How old are you SiLH? I'm guessing, but I'd put you among the more senior members of the forum, obviously not as old as ChrisD (is anyone - sorry Chris) but not a spring chicken. 

If I'm correct with the above assumption then we will have been a member of the EU for pretty much your entire working life. Out of the 44 years that we have been a member for, how many years have you spent working in another EU country?


----------



## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For goodness sake Bri - you know fine well that this is just a view and I am not pretending it to be a statement of fact. 

There is little factual we know about a No Deal future.  But I think can say for 100% certain that, for instance, if we leave with no deal agreed we will *immediately *lose some benefits that we have in respect of travel and work in the EU - and these will have a detrimental impact on me.  The motorway signs and radio ads tell us that.

What can Leave voters say today about leaving without a deal that will 100% certain provide me with *immediate *benefits that will at least balance out what I *know* I will lose.  And what *immediate *benefits will I have and feel that tell me what I have lost was worth losing...

Whenever anyone on here asks that simple question we get the supplied wit the usual top level potential benefits to the UK - but nothing that will immediately compensate me for what I am about to lose.

But I am past being angry with Johnson and his scheming crew - I just feel rather depressed and down about it all.  And that is a statement of fact.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying I won't be able to catch a Ferry, Eurostar or fly anywhere in the EU just as easily as going to USA, Egypt, Australia etc, etc - really.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Are you saying I won't be able to catch a Ferry, Eurostar or fly anywhere in the EU just as easily as going to USA, Egypt, Australia etc, etc - really.
		
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That doesn't seem to answer the question SILH asked (in para 3)! What it DOES do (though not specifically) is reinforce the assertion in Para 2 - of immediately losing some benefits - as 'catching a ferry, Eurostar or flying in(to) the EU will become (somewhat) more difficult!


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That doesn't seem to answer the question SILH asked (in para 3)! What it DOES do (though not specifically) is reinforce the assertion in Para 2 - of immediately losing some benefits - as 'catching a ferry, Eurostar or flying in(to) the EU will become (somewhat) more difficult!
		
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Only for those not on the tinternet I suspect. Can't see them demanding you pop down to the embassy to complete an application.


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## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Only for those not on the tinternet I suspect. Can't see them demanding you pop down to the embassy to complete an application.
		
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That doesn't seem to answer SILH's question either!


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That doesn't seem to answer SILH's question either!
		
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I thought he was complain that things would be more difficult For Him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			How old are you SiLH? I'm guessing, but I'd put you among the more senior members of the forum, obviously not as old as ChrisD (is anyone - sorry Chris) but not a spring chicken.

If I'm correct with the above assumption then we will have been a member of the EU for pretty much your entire working life. Out of the 44 years that we have been a member for, how many years have you spent working in another EU country?
		
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Never worked permanently in an EU country, but at one point I spent a fair amount of time working in places such as Paris, Munich and Nuremberg - travelling backwards and forwards quite regularly.  Since you have asked.  You are correct that I am not old enough to remember professional working life before we joined the EEC - but I do remember how very difficult - rather grim - things were in early to mid-1970s UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Yep me me me, no consideration to a federal state and how the EU may change  and how that may affect those in the future.
		
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All projection...which I thought was not to be taken seriously as the experts record on projections is so very poor.


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## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I thought he was complain that things would be more difficult For Him.
		
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Maybe; maybe not. But your reply/replies still didn't/don't answer his question(s)! 

Have you considered becoming a politician?


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe; maybe not. But your reply/replies still didn't/don't answer his question(s)!

Have you considered becoming a politician?
		
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There was a question, I thought it was the normal moan


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## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			There was a question, I thought it was the normal moan
		
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Avoidance yet again! You really ARE a 'politician'!


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Avoidance yet again! You really ARE a 'politician'!
		
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No, I really cannot make out a question, but then I fail to work out the truth, the fact and the fiction from the majority of his posts.


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## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No, I really cannot make out a question, but then I fail to work out the truth, the fact and the fiction from the majority of his posts.
		
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Check out Matthew 13:13 then!


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Check out Matthew 13:13 then!
		
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Unfortunately I respect religious organisation less than politicians.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			but I do remember how very difficult - rather grim - things were in early to mid-1970s UK.
		
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Yea Right.


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately I respect religious organisation less than politicians.
		
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Not unlike my attitude. It's the words that are important though, nothing else!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2019)

It has taken BBC Laura two days to correct her mistaken report on the Scots Court 'nob off' ruling.
Only a few minutes on Scots twitter BTW.


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## Grant85 (Oct 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It has taken BBC Laura two days to correct her mistaken report on the Scots Court 'nob off' ruling.
Only a few minutes on Scots twitter BTW.
		
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I do like Laura and she is very good at the broadcast stuff, but there is a tenancy of her and colleagues to go completely overboard on trying to be balanced. 

Yesterday pointing out that the Government could still send an extension letter and send another one saying we don't want an extension. Despite this meaning non-compliance with the law and at best meaning another day in court for the government almost certainly to lose - but run the clock down by another few days. 

Also it is starting to get my goat how many times 'no 10 has said' or 'a downing street source' etc etc is passed off as news. It seems almost an unsaid fact that this is Cummings, but they keep republishing his drivel rather than ignoring it and making them state it more publicly or with a name attached to the quote. 

This allows the government to float something that is likely ridiculous / illegal / immoral (or all 3) and at worst test the water with it, then deny it the next day and at best normalise something that then becomes 'part of the plan' that reporters and commentators build into the narrative for them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yea Right.
View attachment 28354

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Quite - very grim indeed...

And Glasgow was a very grim place in the late-60s to mid-70s.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - very grim indeed...

And Glasgow was a very grim place in the late-60s to mid-70s.
		
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Seems like you never lived through the 1950s. Now that really was a grey time.
The sixties and seventies were a period where young people were better off, there were plenty of jobs they managed to buy cars, wear colourful stylish clothes, music was transformed by the explosion of pop music, it was a wonderful time to be growing up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like you never lived through the 1950s. Now that really was a grey time.
The sixties and seventies were a period where young people were better off, there were plenty of jobs they managed to buy cars, wear colourful stylish clothes, music was transformed by the explosion of pop music, it was a wonderful time to be growing up.
		
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Maybe - but it didn't stop Glasgow being a grim place.  Folks still did what they could with what they had to brighten things up a bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I do like Laura and she is very good at the broadcast stuff, but there is a tenancy of her and colleagues to go completely overboard on trying to be balanced.

Yesterday pointing out that *the Government could still send an extension letter and send another one saying we don't want an extension. Despite this meaning non-compliance with the law and at best meaning another day in court for the government almost certainly to lose *- but run the clock down by another few days.

Also it is starting to get my goat how many times 'no 10 has said' or 'a downing street source' etc etc is passed off as news. It seems almost an unsaid fact that this is Cummings, but they keep republishing his drivel rather than ignoring it and making them state it more publicly or with a name attached to the quote.

This allows the government to float something that is likely ridiculous / illegal / immoral (or all 3) and at worst test the water with it, then deny it the next day and at best normalise something that then becomes 'part of the plan' that reporters and commentators build into the narrative for them.
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/09/boris-johnson-sabotage-letter-to-eu-would-break-law

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-johnson-letter-does-it-violate-the-benn-act/

On this - well I guess we will find out soon enough...my understanding is that some senior legal opinion has it 'just about legal'...whatever that might mean.

Meanwhile ministers and ERGers etc have been saying all weekend that Johnson has *not *broken his word over 'never sending a letter to request an extension' - because he had not signed it? - and the EU are telling us that they have received a letter requesting an extension.

So what is the truth - has he sent a letter requesting an extension or not?  Apparently not - alternative facts are with us - do Johnson, Cummings and the rest of them think we are really stupid.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

^^^ The advice from the Attorney General to the PM was that it was legal !!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/09/boris-johnson-sabotage-letter-to-eu-would-break-law

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-johnson-letter-does-it-violate-the-benn-act/

On this - well I guess we will find out soon enough...my understanding is that some senior legal opinion has it 'just about legal'...whatever that might mean.

Meanwhile ministers and ERGers etc have been saying all weekend that Johnson has *not *broken his word over 'never sending a letter to request an extension' - because he had not signed it? - and the EU are telling us that they have received a letter requesting an extension.

So what is the truth - has he sent a letter requesting an extension or not?  Apparently not - alternative facts are with us - do Johnson, Cummings and the rest of them think we are really stupid.
		
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The letter will have come from the UK govt as a whole. The need for an extension letter did not state that Boris himself had to sign it, he was not singled out personally. That would be daft as if he had resigned then the next PM would not be held to it. 

So, the UK govt sent a letter asking for an extension as required. Job done, the law complied with.

Going to court again is just lining the pockets of another barrister. Boy will they be gutted when this is all over.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The letter will have come from the UK govt as a whole. The need for an extension letter did not state that Boris himself had to sign it, he was not singled out personally. That would be daft as if he had resigned then the next PM would not be held to it. 

So, the UK govt sent a letter asking for an extension as required. Job done, the law complied with.

Going to court again is just lining the pockets of another barrister. Boy will they be gutted when this is all over.
		
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It would be interesting to know who's bankrolling these legal challenges, it wont be the likes of Cherry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

And so the Scottish Court of Session says 'we'll see'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The letter will have come from the UK govt as a whole. The need for an extension letter did not state that Boris himself had to sign it, he was not singled out personally. That would be daft as if he had resigned then the next PM would not be held to it.

So, the UK govt sent a letter asking for an extension as required. Job done, the law complied with.

Going to court again is just lining the pockets of another barrister. Boy will they be gutted when this is all over.
		
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They didn't actually go to the court 'again'.  The court had said they'd consider the situation after the deadline date.  So this is simply a continuation of the previous application to the court - as decreed by the court.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They didn't actually go to the court 'again'.  The court had said they'd consider the situation after the deadline date.  So this is simply a continuation of the previous application to the court - as decreed by the court.
		
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It is still taking up court time, court money.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is still taking up court time, court money.
		
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Agreed.  But Courts decision.  Besides. It's what they are there for.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed.  But Courts decision.  *Besides. It's what they are there for.*

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I think that could be open to question. Some of the questions being put in front of them are more political than legal. The remain side have won one case, a big one no question, but they are down on the rest. All take up time and money.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that could be open to question. Some of the questions being put in front of them are more political than legal. The remain side have won one case, a big one no question, but they are down on the rest. All take up time and money.
		
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I'm very uncomfortable with some of the court's involvement in politics. There has to be separation between the judiciary and the govt, and I don't have a problem with the courts ensuring the govt is honest in its application of the laws but I'm very, very uncomfortable with the courts expressing opinions on what it perceives to be hidden agendas. Did Boris really mean x when he said y. This sees the judiciary, a few judges, potentially ruling the UK instead of the elected representatives. Its a fine line and I think its been crossed recently.


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## Grant85 (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/09/boris-johnson-sabotage-letter-to-eu-would-break-law

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-johnson-letter-does-it-violate-the-benn-act/

On this - well I guess we will find out soon enough...my understanding is that some senior legal opinion has it 'just about legal'...whatever that might mean.

Meanwhile ministers and ERGers etc have been saying all weekend that Johnson has *not *broken his word over 'never sending a letter to request an extension' - because he had not signed it? - and the EU are telling us that they have received a letter requesting an extension.

So what is the truth - has he sent a letter requesting an extension or not?  Apparently not - alternative facts are with us - do Johnson, Cummings and the rest of them think we are really stupid.
		
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Seems like the crucial bit was that the EU have accepted the unsigned request as a valid request for an extension. So difficult for a court to rule that he has not made the request, as he was legally obliged to do. 

I think the court cases that took place after my post have ensured that the courts kept a very close eye on what Boris and the Gov were doing and have likely tied their hands to some degree over any actions they may have been planning. 

Ultimately I believe the EU will grant the extension, but likely they will not say anything this week until it is clearer if Boris's deal is a goer or not. The EU will stand with Ireland and will not facilitate a No Deal exit on 31st October. 

I also think it is very likely that the UK will require an extension, even if the Gov find a majority for their deal - which is starting to look possible. i.e. in order to complete the legal / technical bits, it will not be possible to leave on 31st Oct even if things go as well as Boris could hope from this point onwards. 

Current thinking seems to be that they are going to get heavily bogged down in the legislation and will likely not have the numbers to prevent any amendments / safeguards being added to the legislation, which could render it meaningless from the Government's point of view and leave us in the same state of impasse.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm very uncomfortable with some of the court's involvement in politics. There has to be separation between the judiciary and the govt, and I don't have a problem with the courts ensuring the govt is honest in its application of the laws but I'm very, very uncomfortable with the courts expressing opinions on what it perceives to be hidden agendas. Did Boris really mean x when he said y. This sees the judiciary, a few judges, potentially ruling the UK instead of the elected representatives. Its a fine line and I think its been crossed recently.
		
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I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with yout conclusion. There are times when Judges are required to decide on 'intent' BoJo's proguing of Parliament being a case in point. It's the Law that prevents him frustrating Parliament, not Judges opinions. They had to decide, based on arguments from both seide, whether that was his intention. Same actually applies in civil and criminal cases where it's a Judge's opinion. So no real difference if the case is about a political matter imo - they have to make a judgement. That's why becoming a top level Judge is a long road only achieved by a few!

I do agree that making judgements on political issues is fraught with danger though!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with yout conclusion. There are times when Judges are required to decide on 'intent' BoJo's proguing of Parliament being a case in point. It's the Law that prevents him frustrating Parliament, not Judges opinions. They had to decide, based on arguments from both seide, whether that was his intention. Same actually applies in civil and criminal cases where it's a Judge's opinion. So no real difference if the case is about a political matter imo - they have to make a judgement. That's why becoming a top level Judge is a long road only achieved by a few!

I do agree that making judgements on political issues is fraught with danger though!
		
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Which is why they continue to demur from ruling on it.  The Court seems to be waiting until they can see whether or not the EU accept the letter as being 'fit for the purpose' that the Benn Act requires of it.  And it looks like they will.  

Doesn't stop it appearing that Johnson is being rather childish in respect of the letter. Here's what I have been asked to provide - but nah-ney-nah I haven't signed it...

Well if it makes him and his team feel clever then they can feel clever.  But to me it most certainly isn't Prime Ministerial or in any way dignified, rather disrespectful to the EU in fact - goodness knows what they think of him - a bit desperate and pathetic probably - and rather supports the accusation that he'll do anything that he thinks deflects responsibility from himself to others.

It's all rather sad but perhaps not surprising behaviour.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why they continue to demur from ruling on it.  The Court seems to be waiting until they can see whether or not the EU accept the letter as being 'fit for the purpose' that the Benn Act requires of it.  And it looks like they will. 

Doesn't stop it appearing that Johnson is being rather childish in respect of the letter. Here's what I have been asked to provide - but nah-ney-nah I haven't signed it...

Well if it makes him and his team feel clever then they can feel clever.  But to me it most certainly isn't Prime Ministerial or in any way dignified, rather disrespectful to the EU in fact - goodness knows what they think of him - a bit desperate and pathetic probably - and rather supports the accusation that he'll do anything that he thinks deflects responsibility from himself to others.

It's all rather sad but perhaps not surprising behaviour.
		
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As sad as it is I don't blame Johnson for doing what he did. He is a puppet PM with no majority, the strings being pulled by other parties and those in his own party that don't agree with him. The obvious course is a GE but the opposition knows it won't win, so continue to just jerk the strings.

Maybe the other side should agree to an election. It will be fought, predominantly, around Brexit and would be that second referendum that so many are asking for.


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## User62651 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As sad as it is I don't blame Johnson for doing what he did. He is a puppet PM with no majority, the strings being pulled by other parties and those in his own party that don't agree with him. The obvious course is a GE but the opposition knows it won't win, so continue to just jerk the strings.

Maybe the other side should agree to an election. It will be fought, predominantly, around Brexit *and would be that second referendum that so many are asking for.*

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Disagree, it's not a 2 party system so that doesn't work. Besided a lot of parties have both leave and remain supporters, arguably only The Brexit Party and UKIP are 100% on Brexit.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why they continue to demur from ruling on it.  The Court seems to be waiting until they can see whether or not the EU accept the letter as being 'fit for the purpose' that the Benn Act requires of it.  And it looks like they will. 

Doesn't stop it appearing that Johnson is being rather childish in respect of the letter. Here's what I have been asked to provide - but nah-ney-nah I haven't signed it...

Well if it makes him and his team feel clever then they can feel clever.  But to me it most certainly isn't Prime Ministerial or in any way dignified, rather disrespectful to the EU in fact - goodness knows what they think of him - a bit desperate and pathetic probably - and rather supports the accusation that he'll do anything that he thinks deflects responsibility from himself to others.

It's all rather sad but perhaps not surprising behaviour.
		
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Do you not think that those opposing Art50 have continuously acted with dubious tactics towards PM May and now PM Johnson?


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As sad as it is I don't blame Johnson for doing what he did. He is a puppet PM with no majority, the strings being pulled by other parties and those in his own party that don't agree with him. The obvious course is a GE but the opposition knows it won't win, so continue to just jerk the strings.

Maybe the other side should agree to an election. It will be fought, predominantly, around Brexit and would be that second referendum that so many are asking for.
		
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It was petulant, if not childish!

But that describes the way many politician act when it suits them!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It was petulant, if not childish!

But that describes the way many politician act when it suits them!
		
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I think he's right in not signing it. Its content does not support his view and he is forced to send it in his name. He has carried out what was required of him but signing it suggests he is party to its message.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*I think he's right in not signing it*. Its content does not support his view and he is forced to send it in his name. He has carried out what was required of him but signing it suggests he is party to its message.
		
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I don't! It achieves nothing and seems very un-statesman-like! But that's a pretty good description of him anyway!

I stand my 'petulant, if not childish' description!

His personal letter that accompanied the request was sufficient imo.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I don't! It achieves nothing and seems very un-statesman-like! But that's a pretty good description of him anyway!

I stand my 'petulant, if not childish' description!

His personal letter that accompanied the request was sufficient imo.
		
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Twaddle ðŸ™‚


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

The EU are/have acted upon the content of the letter so have accepted it.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I don't! It achieves nothing and seems very un-statesman-like! But that's a pretty good description of him anyway!

I stand my 'petulant, if not childish' description!

His personal letter that accompanied the request was sufficient imo.
		
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So you think he should just do what some idiots have told him that he should do????? Would you, if you were the leader of the country and you didn't agree with what you were being told to do by people who aren't in power?


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU are/have acted upon the content of the letter so have accepted it.
		
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What does that mean? The first letter (unsigned) or the second signed letter? (Just a question)


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			So you think he should just do what some idiots have told him that he should do????? Would you, if you were the leader of the country and you didn't agree with what you were being told to do by people who aren't in power?
		
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You are wrong! They've created a directive telling him what he MUST do!

Signing it or not is irrelevant, but as it comes from the Office of the PM I'd prefer/expect him to sign it. Petty petulance/childishness otherwise!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Do you not think that those opposing Art50 have continuously acted with dubious tactics towards PM May and now PM Johnson?
		
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I disagree - not _dubious _tactics - they have been open about what they are doing in using parliamentary process and rules...they might be using the process and rules to their advantage as best they can (as we are told we must do when playing golf - know the rules and use them) but they have been open.

Johnson and his crew have been hatching plots and have been completely secretive about them.  Now that might be OK in negotiation with the EU - but this is with parliament.  Whereas I might once have thought that they had Cunning Cumming plans I am no longer that convinced.  So when Johnson was going on - and on - about him dying in a ditch before sending a letter to the EU requesting an extension, I actually thought he'd find a way of actually not doing what he had to do under law.  Instead his cunning plan was to send a photocopy of a Schedule to the Act - which of course was unsigned.  That's not a cunning plan - that's childish and rather pathetic.

I have no doubt that they have another _Cumming Plan_ currently in action to force a 31/10 Brexit and/or a GE.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Do you not think that those opposing Art50 have continuously acted with dubious tactics towards PM May and now PM Johnson?
		
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I think some have been disingenuous and conniving but I think some have been very honest and open, e.g. Tim Farron. I don't like the guy one bit but he's been honest. What I do find disappointing however, is that Article 50 was triggered after receiving a significant majority. I'd argue that those who are continuing to oppose are no respecters of democracy.

I'd hope that Remain MP's would respect the result and use their energies to get as good a deal as possible, and as close ties as possible. And if they then want to rejoin the EU, campaign for that. I'd support that all day long and twice on Sundays.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 23, 2019)

I'm reading a book that basically explains everything. They are all connected via public schools education and it's all just a bluddy game to them. 

When the GE is called THE ONLY SOLUTION is to vote Brexit. I've a feeling that Boris has misjudged the mood of the country and Nige will get enough MP's to make a difference, ie will ONLY support a no deal brexit.


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## robinthehood (Oct 23, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm reading a book that basically explains everything. They are all connected via public schools education and it's all just a bluddy game to them.

When the GE is called THE ONLY SOLUTION is to vote Brexit. I've a feeling that Boris has misjudged the mood of the country and Nige will get enough MP's to make a difference, ie will ONLY support a no deal brexit.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Nige will be lucky to get 1 MP


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Nige will be lucky to get 1 MP
		
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and only then if a Tory MP defects


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Nige will be lucky to get 1 MP
		
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LOL. you think!!!!? If boris doesn't "get brexit done" then he's p0roved he's not the man we all hoped for and people will look elsewhere.  Nige must be loving all this mess the clowns are creating. It's all down to the Â£39 BILLION. IF boris had blown that away, he might still have a chance but he didn't so is going to loose a lot of votes. Labour are shot to hell up north and their vote will collapse. They will get Manchester coz their idiots, and London and a few odds and sods, but the Brexit party will be able to rise up and continue to say that they are the ONLY party that want a clean brexit and the leave voters will flock to them. As long as there are no screw ups during the campaign the whole political map will change.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 23, 2019)

The Â£39 BILLION will mean we are paying for 20 years on membership for something we do have membership of and the EU desperately need this money to continue to function. Why the hell don't you think they have said, oh well if you don't want to be a member of our club you can all clear off then. Eh? COZ THEY NEED OUR MONEY!!!!! Â£160 MILLION A WEEK !!!!!! We pay now. So the Â£39 billion is five years of our money!!!!!!


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## Grant85 (Oct 23, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm reading a book that basically explains everything. They are all connected via public schools education and it's all just a bluddy game to them.

When the GE is called THE ONLY SOLUTION is to vote Brexit. I've a feeling that Boris has misjudged the mood of the country and Nige will get enough MP's to make a difference, ie will ONLY support a no deal brexit.
		
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Prediction - we will move to a GE (hopefully early December, but can easilly see it being swung till January). it seems that every time the government has had the chance to run the clock down towards a deadline, it has taken that opportunity. 

Boris will campaign hard on 'Get Brexit Done' and they will try to pay very little attention to other policy areas. Similar to Theresa May's 'strong and stable' it will get boring within a week of the campaign and Boris will struggle under tougher scrutiny of a hastily cobbled together and relatively uncosted manifesto. 

A combination of other parties doing better in the campaign (perception is more important than reality), the Brexit party picking up a few million votes but probably with very few seats and remain voters tactically voting for the right candidates in the right seats will see the Tories do worse than in 2017 - potentially with a narrow majority of pro-remain or pro-2nd ref MPs in the HoC, even if Tories remain largest party. 

in reality, no clear majority for a further course of action and we end up really no further forward than we were this time last year - except that people have become more entrenched in their various positions. 

Boris's strategy is clearly to appeal to leave voters in midlands and the North in the hope they can take these seats from Labour. In reality, their hard-line Brexit stance is likely to lose them 10 or 12 seats in Scotland and probably a similar number in London, as well as be at risk of Lib Dem challenge in the South West (and other middle class market towns in England). So that gives them a lot to do in these pro-leave areas to make up for that shortfall and try and find a majority.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Prediction - we will move to a GE (hopefully early December, but can easilly see it being swung till January). it seems that every time the government has had the chance to run the clock down towards a deadline, it has taken that opportunity.

Boris will campaign hard on 'Get Brexit Done' and they will try to pay very little attention to other policy areas. Similar to Theresa May's 'strong and stable' it will get boring within a week of the campaign and Boris will struggle under tougher scrutiny of a hastily cobbled together and relatively uncosted manifesto.

A combination of other parties doing better in the campaign (perception is more important than reality), the Brexit party picking up a few million votes but probably with very few seats and remain voters tactically voting for the right candidates in the right seats will see the Tories do worse than in 2017 - potentially with a narrow majority of pro-remain or pro-2nd ref MPs in the HoC, even if Tories remain largest party.

in reality, no clear majority for a further course of action and we end up really no further forward than we were this time last year - except that people have become more entrenched in their various positions.

Boris's strategy is clearly to appeal to leave voters in midlands and the North in the hope they can take these seats from Labour. In reality, their hard-line Brexit stance is likely to lose them 10 or 12 seats in Scotland and probably a similar number in London, as well as be at risk of Lib Dem challenge in the South West (and other middle class market towns in England). So that gives them a lot to do in these pro-leave areas to make up for that shortfall and try and find a majority.
		
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Big difference is that Boris knows how to campaign, he knows how to appeal to people. TM had no people skills and her popularity dropped like a stone the longer the campaign went on.

I'd add in to this the mess the Labour party are towards Brexit. It has a policy that does not stand up and Boris will home in on this. I don't like Jo Swinson, I have no time for the LibDems but there is absolute clarity in where they stand and they could do well next time around.


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## Grant85 (Oct 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Big difference is that Boris knows how to campaign, he knows how to appeal to people. TM had no people skills and her popularity dropped like a stone the longer the campaign went on.

I'd add in to this the mess the Labour party are towards Brexit. It has a policy that does not stand up and Boris will home in on this. I don't like Jo Swinson, I have no time for the LibDems but there is absolute clarity in where they stand and they could do well next time around.
		
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Agree on both counts - but May wasn't trying to re position the core of the party from middle England aspirationals to working class leave voters in seats that have voted Labour for 70 years. Tough to do - especially for a posh Etonian. 

And Labour Party were in a similar position at this time in 2017 and still managed to appeal to many during the campaign and put on a huge number of votes compared with 2015 election. Lib Dems and Brexit party also more likely to do more damage to Tory vote than Labour vote, in my view.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

Johnson today in parliament was talking about investment in the north of the country. 
I did not have a clue which area of the UK he was blabbing about.


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson today in parliament was talking about investment in the north of the country.
I did not have a clue which area of the UK he was blabbing about.
		
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I have a strong suspicion that the PM nor HoC would ever be able to say anything that would meet with your approval.


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)

Man in _"doesn't know where north is"_ shocker!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			Man in _"doesn't know where north is"_ shocker! 

Click to expand...

Perhaps you in all your wisdom can tell me where he meant, was it Scotland, Northern Scotland, Northern England, Northern Ireland, Northern NI or North Wales.
It may have been associated with Lincolnshire which is obviously in the South Midlands of the UK so his ramblings get even dafter.


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you in all your wisdom can tell me where he meant, was it Scotland, Northern Scotland, Northern England, Northern Ireland, Northern NI or North Wales.
It may have been associated with Lincolnshire which is obviously in the South Midlands of the UK so his ramblings get even dafter.

Click to expand...

Well I've read some strange things in this and the Brexit thread but, for me, this ranks as one of the strangest !!


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)




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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well I've read some strange things in this and the Brexit thread but, for me, this ranks as one of the strangest !!
		
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Itâ€™s just more anti English bitterness from him 

I believe he suggesting that Boris Johnson was ignoring the Scottish when he said there would investment in the North and Boris was Prob talking about the North of England.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you in all your wisdom can tell me where he meant, was it Scotland, Northern Scotland, Northern England, Northern Ireland, Northern NI or North Wales.
It may have been associated with Lincolnshire which is obviously in the South Midlands of the UK so his ramblings get even dafter.

Click to expand...

North London


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			LOL. you think!!!!? If boris doesn't "get brexit done" then he's p0roved he's not the man we all hoped for and people will look elsewhere.  *Nige must be loving all this mess the clowns are creating. *It's all down to the Â£39 BILLION. IF boris had blown that away, he might still have a chance but he didn't so is going to loose a lot of votes. Labour are shot to hell up north and their vote will collapse. They will get Manchester coz their idiots, and London and a few odds and sods, but the Brexit party will be able to rise up and continue to say that they are the ONLY party that want a clean brexit and the leave voters will flock to them. As long as there are no screw ups during the campaign the whole political map will change.
		
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He is loving and stirring it big time these days 6-7pm on LBC.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you in all your wisdom can tell me where he meant, was it Scotland, Northern Scotland, Northern England, Northern Ireland, Northern NI or North Wales.
It may have been associated with Lincolnshire which is obviously in the South Midlands of the UK so his ramblings get even dafter.

Click to expand...

Seeing as Scotland now has control of its own finances it aint them, or would you prefer it was given back to people who could do a better job.
It's up North, you know Up 't' North ðŸ™„


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why they continue to demur from ruling on it.  The Court seems to be waiting until they can see whether or not the EU accept the letter as being 'fit for the purpose' that the Benn Act requires of it.  And it looks like they will. 

Doesn't stop it appearing that Johnson is being rather childish in respect of the letter. Here's what I have been asked to provide - but nah-ney-nah I haven't signed it...

Well if it makes him and his team feel clever then they can feel clever.  But to me it most certainly isn't Prime Ministerial or in any way dignified, rather disrespectful to the EU in fact - goodness knows what they think of him - a bit desperate and pathetic probably - and rather supports the accusation that he'll do anything that he thinks deflects responsibility from himself to others.

It's all rather sad but perhaps not surprising behaviour.
		
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My God man, you do go on about Boris. You call him names, every chance you get you have a go at him, 
And when you were called out for hating him , you piously say you don't, you just pity him!  Sanctimonious rubbish! 
I believe that it is his personal life that motivates your extreme dislike and your willingness to not give him even an inch. 
I find it tedious that nearly every post you make you have a go at him, not his Government, but him.
Give it a rest.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My God man, you do go on about Boris. You call him names, every chance you get you have a go at him,
And when you were called out for hating him , you piously say you don't, you just pity him!  Sanctimonious rubbish!
I believe that it is his personal life that motivates your extreme dislike and your willingness to not give him even an inch.
I find it tedious that nearly every post you make you have a go at him, not his Government, but him.
Give it a rest.
		
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This thread is about Boris!


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## 2blue (Oct 23, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My God man, you do go on about Boris. You call him names, every chance you get you have a go at him,
And when you were called out for hating him , you piously say you don't, you just pity him!  Sanctimonious rubbish!
I believe that it is his personal life that motivates your extreme dislike and your willingness to not give him even an inch.
I find it tedious that nearly every post you make you have a go at him, not his Government, but him.
Give it a rest.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			This thread is about Boris! 

Click to expand...

& he's a blustering prat....  so no surprise people have a go at him


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			& he's a blustering prat....  so no surprise people have a go at him
		
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Hes looking good at the moment. Guess you could do a better job then.


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My God man, you do go on about Boris. You call him names, every chance you get you have a go at him, 
And when you were called out for hating him , you piously say you don't, you just pity him!  Sanctimonious rubbish! 
I believe that it is his personal life that motivates your extreme dislike and your willingness to not give him even an inch. 
I find it tedious that nearly every post you make you have a go at him, not his Government, but him.
Give it a rest.
		
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If you knew SILH as we do he's like a record player with a stuck needle. He wont give anything a rest as has been proven on other threads over the past few years. Try researching the DMD thread and the where to stand on the tee thread, Boris, and the Brexit thread, are manna from heaven for him!


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He is loving and stirring it big time these days 6-7pm on LBC.
		
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I'll bet he is !!!!


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Agree on both counts - but May wasn't trying to re position the core of the party from middle England aspirationals to working class leave voters in seats that have voted Labour for 70 years. Tough to do - especially for a posh Etonian.

And Labour Party were in a similar position at this time in 2017 and still managed to appeal to many during the campaign and put on a huge number of votes compared with 2015 election. Lib Dems and Brexit party also more likely to do more damage to Tory vote than Labour vote, in my view.
		
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Predicting which way the electorate will finally vote is like knitting fog. The polls currently put Labour in a worse position than when Michael Foot was leader (another far left leader?) but polls are only snapshots in time, and its clear how well Labour did in the last campaign. Can they do it again? To a certain extent they don't have to. As you say, the LibDems are on the rise, and the Brexit party will harvest some of the traditional Tory votes. I'd also expect the Tory gains in Scotland will all but disappear.

Another hung parliament? Probably, and with the SNP expected to return around 50 seats, a Labour/SNP alliance?


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Predicting which way the electorate will finally vote is like knitting fog. The polls currently put Labour in a worse position than when Michael Foot was leader (another far left leader?) but polls are only snapshots in time, and its clear how well Labour did in the last campaign. Can they do it again? To a certain extent they don't have to. As you say, the LibDems are on the rise, and the Brexit party will harvest some of the traditional Tory votes.* I'd also expect the Tory gains in Scotland will all but disappear.*

Another hung parliament? Probably, and with the SNP expected to return around 50 seats, a Labour/SNP alliance?
		
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TBH i can't see there being a single Tory MP in Scotland< with RD gone that was the only thing that got them seats last time.

some libs may gain the the traditional LD area's, but once the SNP advertise Jo Swinsons Voting record with the Tory's she will be gone...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If you knew SILH as we do he's like a record player with a stuck needle. He wont give anything a rest as has been proven on other threads over the past few years. Try researching the DMD thread and the where to stand on the tee thread, Boris, and the Brexit thread, are manna from heaven for him!
		
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Come on Chris, the guy is moaning about SILH posting about Boris on a Boris thread, for any faults he he may or may not have, the answer everyone else normally gets is â€œif you donâ€™t like the posts or thread you donâ€™t have to read itâ€


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## 2blue (Oct 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			& he's a blustering prat....  so no surprise people have a go at him
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Hes looking good at the moment. Guess you could do a better job then.
		
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Think you .... 'Should have gone to SpecSavers' ðŸ¤“ðŸ¤“
Former statement still very accurate....  guess you must have some sort of filter.


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Chris, the guy is moaning about SILH posting about Boris on a Boris thread, for any faults he he may or may not have, the answer everyone else normally gets is â€œif you donâ€™t like the posts or thread you donâ€™t have to read itâ€
		
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Paul, if SILH is entitled to voice his opinion on Boris surely I'm entitled to have an opinion on SILH?


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, if SILH is entitled to voice his opinion on Boris surely I'm entitled to have an opinion on SILH?
		
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why not start a thread then "SILH a new begining"?


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## robinthehood (Oct 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, if SILH is entitled to voice his opinion on Boris surely I'm entitled to have an opinion on SILH?
		
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Sure if the thread were about silh,  other wise probably not.


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## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why not start a thread then "SILH a new begining"?

Click to expand...

More like â€œSILH same shite different dayâ€ or â€œSILH, the stuck recordâ€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, if SILH is entitled to voice his opinion on Boris surely I'm entitled to have an opinion on SILH?
		
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Only on a SILH thread 

Mate, you might be a 100% correct over SILH, I was more pointing out the fact someone moaned at him for talking about Boris on a Boris thread.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Dando said:



			More like â€œSILH same shite different dayâ€ or â€œSILH, the stuck recordâ€
		
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Heâ€™s no more stuck on his views than 4 or 5 others who have the opposite view.
They just tell us slightly less.


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## Grant85 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Predicting which way the electorate will finally vote is like knitting fog. The polls currently put Labour in a worse position than when Michael Foot was leader (another far left leader?) but polls are only snapshots in time, and its clear how well Labour did in the last campaign. Can they do it again? To a certain extent they don't have to. As you say, the LibDems are on the rise, and the Brexit party will harvest some of the traditional Tory votes. I'd also expect the Tory gains in Scotland will all but disappear.

Another hung parliament? Probably, and with the SNP expected to return around 50 seats, a Labour/SNP alliance?
		
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I don't think we will see a Labour / SNP alliance - English votes for English laws will make this very impractical in reality. 

Also - both parties have ruled it out and I think there is almost nothing to gain from the SNP sitting on the government benches or having any formal confidence and supply mechanism. SNP will argue they don't have to give or concede anything for a Scottish Referendum as they already have several democratic mandates from the Scottish electorate. 

However, if Labour were to propose a fair chunk of their manifesto in terms of taxation and domestic policy, I think they would find plenty of common ground with the SNP - more so than any other party. Depending on the numbers, they could be negotiating with both SNP and Libs over every bill they proposed... I think the Lib Dems will be extremely bad at that and will oppose Corbyn for the sake of opposition and give up any realistic chance of influence. The SNP will be more practical to try and get things done. Swinson seems to be adopting an 'angry, shouty' persona at every turn. Not one of compromise or consideration. 

But ultimately... while those kind of numbers might swing the Brexit question back to in favour of Remain, it's unlikely to settle it and in reality parliament will continue to be consumed by it for years, rather than months.


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only on a SILH thread 

Mate, you might be a 100% correct over SILH, I was more pointing out the fact someone moaned at him for talking about Boris on a Boris thread.

Click to expand...

No problem Paul


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## Grant85 (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			TBH i can't see there being a single Tory MP in Scotland< with RD gone that was the only thing that got them seats last time.

some libs may gain the the traditional LD area's, but once the SNP advertise Jo Swinsons Voting record with the Tory's she will be gone...

Click to expand...

I reckon they'll have a decent chance of winning 2 out of the 3 borders seats. Mundell has been clinging on for years as a useless Scottish Tory who loved the office, even if he had no influence, and would be good to see him get his ass finally handed to him now that he's out of Government.

East Ren is an interesting one. Labour for years (Jim Murphy) - voted SNP in the 2015 landslide, then went Tory with a reasonable majority in 2017.
Big pro remain area and pro Union area - but in the land of domestic policy this should be a rock solid Tory seat with a 5 figure majority. 

Maybe a chunky Lib Dem vote and could give it to the SNP on a close vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Just love that I get attacked personally for simply expressing my views on the subject matter of a thread.  For as long as what I consider to be deceits our PM perpetrates continue, I may choose to point them out.  He is Prime Minister for all of us.  But if any wish to continue attacking the messenger then feel free.


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## Wolf (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just love that I get attacked personally for simply expressing my views on the subject matter of a thread.  For as long as what I consider to be deceits our PM perpetrates continue, I may choose to point them out.  He is Prime Minister for all of us.  But if any wish to continue attacking the messenger then feel free.
		
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Talk about a rose tinted glasses view of your own posts.. In all the threads about politics you don't merely talk about the the subject matter, you personally attack Boris with pedantic name calling, inaccurate facts and some absolute tripe, one that springs to mind is where you constantly named called Boris derogatory terms and in the same thread posted about your grandads view of people like him and Churchill  during the 2nd World War as to why you thought the way you did about him when you called out on this, you instead of replying to the factual information put to you, went back to petty name calling of Boris again. Those posts are why you've been singled out and why a lot of posters when they read what you wrote about the political subject matters only get as far as the first line before rolling there eyes and thinking here we go again. 

Granted this thread is about Boris I give you that but sometimes in other threads perhaps stop and think before you post petty comments and try to add to the 
Debate properly.. 

What was Balotelli used to say, "why always me" ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I have a strong suspicion that the PM nor HoC would ever be able to say anything that would meet with your approval.
		
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I have a feeling 'New Scotland Independence Referendum' might!


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just love that I get attacked personally for simply expressing my views on the subject matter of a thread.  For as long as what I consider to be deceits our PM perpetrates continue, I may choose to point them out.  He is Prime Minister for all of us.  But if any wish to continue attacking the messenger then feel free.
		
Click to expand...

I think some are over the top but, although you might not agree, you are extreme in some your views too. You, at times, simply express extreme views. And, occasionally, some comments back at you are not undeserved. Your lickspittle cabinet comment when you couldn't name the cabinet members, their track record or political leanings was hugely disappointing. Whatever brickbats you took for that were well deserved. You have so much to offer a debate when you debate, e.g. GATT24, but there's a difference between debating passionately and debating emotionally.

Decry their politics by all means but do it based on facts and the truth. Is Johnson a liar? That's a matter of fact. Does he lie about everything? Probably not. Do I trust him? Definitely not. Should he be PM? Yes, because he went through the process required to choose the leader of the party currently in power. That doesn't mean I want him as PM but it does mean I recognise the process has legitimacy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Talk about a rose tinted glasses view of your own posts.. In all the threads about politics you don't merely talk about the the subject matter, you personally attack Boris with pedantic name calling, inaccurate facts and some absolute tripe, one that springs to mind is where you constantly named called Boris derogatory terms and in the same thread posted about your grandads view of people like him and Churchill  during the 2nd World War as to why you thought the way you did about him when you called out on this, you instead of replying to the factual information put to you, went back to petty name calling of Boris again. Those posts are why you've been singled out and why a lot of posters when they read what you wrote about the political subject matters only get as far as the first line before rolling there eyes and thinking here we go again.

Granted this thread is about Boris I give you that but sometimes in other threads perhaps stop and think before you post petty comments and try to add to the
Debate properly..

What was Balotelli used to say, "why always me" ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Smells a bit of double standards to me because of the amount of posts he makes, people play the poster as itâ€™s easier at times.
Some people simply cut and paste Twitter posts with no added comments, or bring Diane Abbott in to a thread when ever there is talk about numbers or use derogatory names about Sturgeon etc.
I look forward to these people having their motives or posting style questioned.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Smells a bit of double standards to me because of the amount of posts he makes, people play the poster as itâ€™s easier at times.
Some people simply cut and paste Twitter posts with no added comments, or bring Diane Abbott in to a thread when ever there is talk about numbers or use derogatory names about Sturgeon etc.
I look forward to these people having their motives or posting style questioned.
		
Click to expand...

thats a great idea


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## Wolf (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Smells a bit of double standards to me because of the amount of posts he makes, people play the poster as itâ€™s easier at times.
Some people simply cut and paste Twitter posts with no added comments, or bring Diane Abbott in to a thread when ever there is talk about numbers or use derogatory names about Sturgeon etc.
I look forward to these people having their motives or posting style questioned.
		
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Don't disagree with you, but I was merely replying to the person who made the last post..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			Think you .... 'Should have gone to SpecSavers' ðŸ¤“ðŸ¤“
Former statement still very accurate....  guess you must have some sort of filter.
		
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I read and understood your post perfectly, no eyesight problems.  Your post is rather loaded so I guess my reply has to be 'guess you must have some sort of filter' ðŸ™„


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think some are over the top but, although you might not agree, you are extreme in some your views too. You, at times, simply express extreme views. And, occasionally, some comments back at you are not undeserved.* Your lickspittle cabinet comment* when you couldn't name the cabinet members, their track record or political leanings was hugely disappointing. Whatever brickbats you took for that were well deserved. You have so much to offer a debate when you debate, e.g. GATT24, but there's a difference between debating passionately and debating emotionally.

Decry their politics by all means but do it based on facts and the truth. Is Johnson a liar? That's a matter of fact. Does he lie about everything? Probably not. Do I trust him? Definitely not. Should he be PM? Yes, because he went through the process required to choose the leader of the party currently in power. That doesn't mean I want him as PM but it does mean I recognise the process has legitimacy.
		
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I did withdraw that...on your quite appropriate admonition.

Indeed I hear this morning that there are disagreements in the cabinet over what to do next - though a #10 spokesperson denies that any such disagreements exist.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did withdraw that...on your quite appropriate admonition.

Indeed I hear this morning that there are disagreements in the cabinet over what to do next - though a #10 spokesperson denies that any such disagreements exist.
		
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Come on then, where did you hear it?


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## MegaSteve (Oct 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I couldn't care if Kermit the Frog was in No.10 so long as we leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  And there is more chance of it happening with Boris as PM than anyone else.  So good for him.
		
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Looking like Kermit may well have been a better option...


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## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, where did you hear it?
		
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His barber? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Sorry couldnâ€™t resist


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think some are over the top but, although you might not agree, you are extreme in some your views too. You, at times, simply express extreme views. And, occasionally, some comments back at you are not undeserved. *Your lickspittle cabinet comment when you couldn't name the cabinet members, their track record or political leanings was hugely disappointing.* Whatever brickbats you took for that were well deserved. You have so much to offer a debate when you debate, e.g. GATT24, but there's a difference between debating passionately and debating emotionally.

Decry their politics by all means but do it based on facts and the truth. Is Johnson a liar? That's a matter of fact. Does he lie about everything? Probably not. Do I trust him? Definitely not. Should he be PM? Yes, because he went through the process required to choose the leader of the party currently in power. That doesn't mean I want him as PM but it does mean I recognise the process has legitimacy.
		
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While I agree with much of of this and SILH has withdrawn the comment, there's anpther side to not being able to name many of them - and that's that, apart from Raab, Gove and Rees-Mogg they are anonymous - and JRM's major presence of any newsworthiness (relaxing across 3 seats of the front bench) was a dire one! Sajid Javid and Priti Patel haven't been very noticeable and only Leadsom and Cox are names I'm familiar with as 'experienced'! So 'lickspittle' or 'sycophant' doesn't, to me, seem too harsh - at least not in the context of this thread! This Cabinet is all about single-focus Boris who actually intends - and has stated so in The Commons - to disband this Cabinet asap (prior to a GE)!


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did withdraw that...on your quite appropriate admonition.

Indeed I hear this morning that there are disagreements in the cabinet over what to do next - though a #10 spokesperson denies that any such disagreements exist.
		
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Just to pick up on your last point about disagreements in Cabinet but a spokesperson denies. I wish I had a â‚¬ for every time there's been an up and down, blood on the walls, disagreement in a meeting but to those outside the room they've only ever seen a united front. Its what management teams do. Think May touched on it, "collective responsibility."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_collective_responsibility


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just to pick up on your last point about disagreements in Cabinet but a spokesperson denies. I wish I had a â‚¬ for every time there's been an up and down, blood on the walls, disagreement in a meeting but to those outside the room they've only ever seen a united front. Its what management teams do. Think May touched on it, "collective responsibility."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_collective_responsibility

Click to expand...

Seems like we've got a bit of both.  Try and get an agreement and try and get a GE


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Smells a bit of double standards to me because of the amount of posts he makes, people play the poster as itâ€™s easier at times.
Some people simply cut and paste Twitter posts with no added comments, or bring Diane Abbott in to a thread when ever there is talk about numbers or use derogatory names about Sturgeon etc.
I look forward to these people having their motives or posting style questioned.
		
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Well said Sir.
I find the Diane Abbott posts quite offensive as I can't help thinking that there is something a bit deeper behind them.
I do hope I am wrong.


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## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said Sir.
I find the Diane Abbott posts quite offensive as I can't help thinking that there is something a bit deeper behind them.
I do hope I am wrong.
		
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I take the piss out of Diane abacus because sheâ€™s so unbelievably dumb!

I hope your not thinking of doing a â€œLammyâ€


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

Dando said:



			I take the piss out of Diane abacus because sheâ€™s so unbelievably dumb!

I hope your not thinking of doing a â€œLammyâ€
		
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Harsh.

I don't like her or her politics. I also think she's a racist. However, if you have a look at her constituency record and especially the work she's done on mental health initiatives she's actually quite good.

I also believe she's been promoted to her level of incompetence, which is why she comes across as a muppet.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 24, 2019)

Dando said:



			I take the piss out of Diane abacus because sheâ€™s so unbelievably dumb!

I hope your not thinking of doing a â€œLammyâ€
		
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You know heâ€™s â€œfingeringâ€ the card, itching to play itðŸ˜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Dando said:



			I take the piss out of Diane abacus because sheâ€™s so unbelievably dumb!

I hope your not thinking of doing a â€œLammyâ€
		
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No sheâ€™s not, yes sheâ€™s made some political gaffes, but certainly not dumb.
A History degree from Cambridge, set up Childrens charities to improve education standards, won Human Rights Awards and been invited to lecture at Universities around the world, including Harvard.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No sheâ€™s not, yes sheâ€™s made some political gaffes, but certainly not dumb.
A History degree from Cambridge, set up Childrens charities to improve education standards, won Human Rights Awards and been invited to lecture at Universities around the world, including Harvard.
		
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And a massive racist to boot. She really is a treasure. ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

Corbyns shadow cabinet are a very poor standard of politicians, any decent members walked or were pushed when  they failed to remove Corbyn.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Shamelessly stolen from FB;

If Boris Johnson, David Cameron and Rees-Mogg are the product of Eton their parents were well ripped off on the school fees front. 

Sorry but it just tickled my sad sense of humour.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with much of of this and SILH has withdrawn the comment, there's anpther side to *not being able to name many of them *- and that's that, apart from Raab, Gove and Rees-Mogg they are anonymous - and JRM's major presence of any newsworthiness (relaxing across 3 seats of the front bench) was a dire one! Sajid Javid and Priti Patel haven't been very noticeable and only Leadsom and Cox are names I'm familiar with as 'experienced'! So 'lickspittle' or 'sycophant' doesn't, to me, seem too harsh - at least not in the context of this thread! This Cabinet is all about single-focus Boris who actually intends - and has stated so in The Commons - to disband this Cabinet asap (prior to a GE)!
		
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I thought I did rather well by being able to name about 10...plus DomCum.

Though I am much worse with the Shadow Cabinet - and listening to DAbbott this morning on Today - oh dear that lady does not in me inspire any confidence whatsoever.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Shamelessly stolen from FB;

If Boris Johnson, David Cameron and Rees-Mogg are the product of Eton their parents were well ripped off on the school fees front. 

Sorry but it just tickled my sad sense of humour.
		
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Whie I appreciate the wit, I'd suggest it was probably a great investment though, given earnings/wealth of at least 2 of them!


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## stefanovic (Oct 25, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/sep/07/famous-last-words-cartoon


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought I did rather well by being able to name about 10...plus DomCum.

Though I am much worse with the Shadow Cabinet - and listening to DAbbott this morning on Today - oh dear that lady does not in me inspire any confidence whatsoever.
		
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You named more than me, although I'm guilty of looking them up on a regular basis.

BTW, I agree with many of your opinions, I know you're shocked, just not the way you often express them. The theme is often right, just put out there in a very black and white extreme way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You named more than me, although I'm guilty of looking them up on a regular basis.

BTW, I agree with many of your opinions, I know you're shocked, just not the way you often express them. The theme is often right, just put out there in a very black and white extreme way.
		
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My greatest shock is that so many seem to be in almost complete denial over Johnson as an individual and the games he; his ministers and his advisors are playing with the public and the UK as a whole.

It's a bit as if so many of the Johnson-loving/supporting Leave voting public being an addict unable to accept their addiction, and the damage being done to themselves and others now and in the future.  Unfortunately the addict does not come out of denial into acceptance until they hit their rock-bottom.

Over the last three years there have been plenty of occasions that that rock-bottom realisation could have come about - but it is not happening and I don't actually see how and when it _can _come about.  I just can't see what the rock-bottom can be in the addiction so many seem to have with Johnson.

So at the moment he is telling us to *applaud *him for coming up with a deal that puts a border between NI and rUK.  An internal border that breaks an absolute pledge that he made to NI Unionists and the Conservative and Unionist Party - and that has the potential for triggering Loyalist unrest in NI - and - let's not forget - the friends of Loyalist NI in other parts of the UK.  But that seems to matter not a jot to Johnson - yet we are asked to applaud him for getting a Deal...and so many do.

See also his not signing the Extension Letter.  We seem to have a great swathe of Leave voters adamant that because he didn't sign it then it's not from him - even although the letter actually states that it is from the Prime Minister of the UK.  But nope - because Johnson didn't *actually *sign it then it's not from him and so he's not breaking his promise to not request an extension.  Do any of these folks ever use Email?  Oh yes - it might be my Email address on that Email you have but because I haven't actually signed the Email, then I didn't send it?  Just nuts!

And so we will continue to get more of what we have had...especially what we have had since he became PM.

Desperately disappointing - but simply how I see Johnson...he just should not be Prime Minister


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My greatest shock is that so many seem to be in almost complete denial over Johnson as an individual and the games he; his ministers and his advisors are playing with the public and the UK as a whole.

It's a bit as if so many of the Johnson-loving/supporting Leave voting public being an addict unable to accept their addiction, and the damage being done to themselves and others now and in the future.  Unfortunately the addict does not come out of denial into acceptance until they hit their rock-bottom.

Over the last three years there have been plenty of occasions that that rock-bottom realisation could have come about - but it is not happening and I don't actually see how and when it _can _come about.  I just can't see what the rock-bottom can be in the addiction so many seem to have with Johnson.

So at the moment he is telling us to *applaud *him for coming up with a deal that puts a border between NI and rUK.  An internal border that breaks an absolute pledge that he made to NI Unionists and the Conservative and Unionist Party - and that has the potential for triggering Loyalist unrest in NI - and - let's not forget - the friends of Loyalist NI in other parts of the UK.  But that seems to matter not a jot to Johnson - yet we are asked to applaud him for getting a Deal...and so many do.

See also his not signing the Extension Letter.  We seem to have a great swathe of Leave voters adamant that because he didn't sign it then it's not from him - even although the letter actually states that it is from the Prime Minister of the UK.  But nope - because Johnson didn't *actually *sign it then it's not from him and so he's not breaking his promise to not request an extension.  Do any of these folks ever use Email?  Oh yes - it might be my Email address on that Email you have but because I haven't actually signed the Email, then I didn't send it?  Just nuts!

And so we will continue to get more of what we have had...especially what we have had since he became PM.

Desperately disappointing - but simply how I see Johnson...he just should not be Prime Minister
		
Click to expand...

You are incapable of seeing anything posative about Boris so why not just say so and leave it rather than repeatedly pouring out the same old retoric.   Give us a break, I could post similar about Corbyn but whats the point.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2019)

Just deleted a few posts and issued an infraction

If you cant control yourselves then the thread will be closed

Simples


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My greatest shock is that so many seem to be in almost complete denial over Johnson as an individual and the games he; his ministers and his advisors are playing with the public and the UK as a whole.

It's a bit as if so many of the Johnson-loving/supporting Leave voting public being an addict unable to accept their addiction, and the damage being done to themselves and others now and in the future.  Unfortunately the addict does not come out of denial into acceptance until they hit their rock-bottom.

Over the last three years there have been plenty of occasions that that rock-bottom realisation could have come about - but it is not happening and I don't actually see how and when it _can _come about.  I just can't see what the rock-bottom can be in the addiction so many seem to have with Johnson.

So at the moment he is telling us to *applaud *him for coming up with a deal that puts a border between NI and rUK.  An internal border that breaks an absolute pledge that he made to NI Unionists and the Conservative and Unionist Party - and that has the potential for triggering Loyalist unrest in NI - and - let's not forget - the friends of Loyalist NI in other parts of the UK.  But that seems to matter not a jot to Johnson - yet we are asked to applaud him for getting a Deal...and so many do.

See also his not signing the Extension Letter.  We seem to have a great swathe of Leave voters adamant that because he didn't sign it then it's not from him - even although the letter actually states that it is from the Prime Minister of the UK.  But nope - because Johnson didn't *actually *sign it then it's not from him and so he's not breaking his promise to not request an extension.  Do any of these folks ever use Email?  Oh yes - it might be my Email address on that Email you have but because I haven't actually signed the Email, then I didn't send it?  Just nuts!

And so we will continue to get more of what we have had...especially what we have had since he became PM.

Desperately disappointing - but simply how I see Johnson...he just should not be Prime Minister
		
Click to expand...

Here's a thought, and remember it all about opinions, there'll be people who consider you're at rock bottom by wanting to stay in the EU. And it is you that is in complete denial about the risks of staying in the EU.

All the rest of what you've posted up will be seen as senseless, baseless waffle. Johnson will be their hero, the next messiah, and you are stumbling in the wilderness.

It a political choice made by people for their own reasons. You're right and so are they. Its that simple.


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## patricks148 (Oct 25, 2019)

James Cleverly posted today about voting labour into power would cripple the economy and damage law and order.... lol has  he not been paying attention to the lat 9 years... 21,000 police  officers lost, 600 police stations closed down, and the economy crippled after years of austerity.... oh the irony


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## Dando (Oct 25, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just deleted a few posts and issued an infraction

If you cant control yourselves then the thread will be closed

Simples
		
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Promises, promises


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## spongebob59 (Oct 25, 2019)

Can we ask the queen to poroge the thread *ðŸ˜‚*


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## PieMan (Oct 25, 2019)

Yes 


patricks148 said:



			James Cleverly posted today about voting labour into power would cripple the economy and damage law and order.... lol has  he not been paying attention to the lat 9 years... 21,000 police  officers lost, 600 police stations closed down, and the economy crippled after years of austerity.... oh the irony

Click to expand...

Yes years of austerity brought about by the inept handling of the economy by the last Labour Government!! ðŸ¤­ðŸ¤­ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			James Cleverly posted today about voting labour into power would cripple the economy and damage law and order.... lol has  he not been paying attention to the lat 9 years... 21,000 police  officers lost, 600 police stations closed down, and the economy crippled after years of austerity.... oh the irony

Click to expand...

I agree with you on policing but not the economy. The number of people in work is the highest ever. The lowest number of unemployed since 1974. Agree that austerity went way too far but not on the state of the economy.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just deleted a few posts and issued an infraction

If you cant control yourselves then the thread will be closed

Simples
		
Click to expand...

I assume, in the form of natural justice, you will have notified those responsible rather than simply close a thread upon which others post with a degree of responsibility. 
It a subject of national interest where views can be strongly held and forceably expressed.

We are grown up, I think!


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with you on policing but not the economy. The number of people in work is the highest ever. The lowest number of unemployed since 1974. Agree that austerity went way too far but not on the state of the economy.
		
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Itâ€™s easier to get a higher number of people in work when those jobs are made up of more  BS flexible part time contracts that donâ€™t provide a decent wage or any security though.  Wealth continues to be funnelled to the Bullingdon boys and their mates.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Yes


Yes years of austerity brought about by the inept handling of the economy by the last Labour Government!! ðŸ¤­ðŸ¤­ðŸ˜‰
		
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Do you think a conservative government would have done more or less on balance to regulate banking , and do you believe that they would have done more or less to bail out investment banking?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			We are grown up, I think!
		
Click to expand...

Some of us are. ðŸ‘


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## PieMan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Do you think a conservative government would have done more or less on balance to regulate banking , and do you believe that they would have done more or less to bail out investment banking?
		
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Doesn't matter does it. The economy was doing pretty well when Labour took over from the then Conservative Government, and then under their watch it tanked.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Doesn't matter does it. The economy was doing pretty well when Labour took over from the then Conservative Government, and then under their watch it tanked.
		
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Thatâ€™s a very shallow analysis of the global financial crisis ...


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Itâ€™s easier to get a higher number of people in work when those jobs are made up of more  BS flexible part time contracts that donâ€™t provide a decent wage or any security though.  Wealth continues to be funnelled to the Bullingdon boys and their mates.
		
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Perhaps you can explain why the average salary has risen by just under 3.5% in the last year, and it rose by 2.2% the year before. I'll leave you to look up previous years, then maybe you can come back with some FACTS.

And to edit, it rose by over 2% the year before too. So more people added to the already working, yet using your presumption they were low paid or zero hours... yet the average salary rose. Mmm, not sure how that magically happened then.


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## PieMan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Thatâ€™s a very shallow analysis of the global financial crisis ...
		
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Yep. Nearly as shallow as the 'there's no money left' note! ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Thatâ€™s a very shallow analysis of the global financial crisis ...
		
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Is that why Brown sold off the gold so cheap and gave away millions more in benefits to people ( to allow many to earn more in benefits than going to actual work )


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5788dbac-7680-11e0-b05b-00144feabdc0


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps you can explain why the average salary has risen by just under 3.5% in the last year, and it rose by 2.2% the year before. I'll leave you to look up previous years, then maybe you can come back with some FACTS.
		
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Come on fella, no need to go Nuclear and use teenage CAPS to try and get your point across.

 How do THOSE salary figures LOOK once you take inflation INTO account. Iâ€™d also question whether AN average salary rate figure WOULD in any adequate WAY explain fully what is happening THROUGH all income percentiles. 

Finding data on the increase in wealth owned by the top 1% and the increase in employment contracts with no worker guarantees/protection at low wages should be pretty easy Iâ€™d imagine, if one could be arsed.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that why Brown sold off the gold so cheap and gave away millions more in benefits to people ( to allow many to earn more in benefits than going to actual work )
		
Click to expand...

Is what why?  Selling the gold caused the global financial crisis? 

It would seem to me to be wrong to blame austerity (such as it was) on higher welfare spending on tax credits. Thatâ€™s a very small portion of the Government welfare spend - but it is an easy target.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Come on fella, no need to go Nuclear and use teenage CAPS to try and get your point across.

How do THOSE salary figures LOOK once you take inflation INTO account. Iâ€™d also question whether AN average salary rate figure WOULD in any adequate WAY explain fully what is happening THROUGH all income percentiles.

Finding data on the increase in wealth owned by the top 1% and the increase in employment contracts with no worker guarantees/protection at low wages should be pretty easy Iâ€™d imagine, if one could be arsed.
		
Click to expand...

By all means go and find the data. If you want to look at it based on all the percentiles bare in mind that the number of people earning at the lower end is significantly higher than the number at the top end. Maybe simple maths would suggest that 15,000,000 people earning x and receive an increase of 3.5% will give you a higher figure than 50,000 people earning x times 10 who receive a similar increase.

Inflation in 2018 was 2.4%, 0.2% above inflation. Inflation in 2019 to date is running at 1.9%, significantly lower than the pay rises. As you know pay rises generally run a year behind the inflation figures.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			By all means go and find the data. If you want to look at it based on all the percentiles bare in mind that the number of people earning at the lower end is significantly higher than the number at the top end. Maybe simple maths would suggest that 15,000,000 people earning x and receive an increase of 3.5% will give you a higher figure than 50,000 people earning x times 10 who receive a similar increase.

Inflation in 2018 was 2.4%, 0.2% above inflation. Inflation in 2019 to date is running at 1.9%, significantly lower than the pay rises. As you know pay rises generally run a year behind the inflation figures.
		
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So around 1% real salary growth, as an average. I should look up the rest tomorrow, Iâ€™d be genuinely interested.  My guess would be increases on the higher levels would be more.


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## patricks148 (Oct 26, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Yes


Yes years of austerity brought about by the inept handling of the economy by the last Labour Government!! ðŸ¤­ðŸ¤­ðŸ˜‰
		
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i would have a look a history dear boy, the labour Gov that came in in 97 inherited a def from he prev gov... a Tory Gov i might add


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## patricks148 (Oct 26, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Doesn't matter does it. The economy was doing pretty well when Labour took over from the then Conservative Government, and then under their watch it tanked.
		
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i would have a look at the laws that the tories brought in in 87 and the degreulation of banking that caused the crash that Brown was forced to step in an bail oout the banks.. are you suggesting a Conservative Gov wouldn't have Bailed out banks??


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			James Cleverly posted today about voting labour into power would cripple the economy and damage law and order.... lol has  he not been paying attention to the lat 9 years... 21,000 police  officers lost, 600 police stations closed down, and the economy crippled after years of austerity.... oh the irony

Click to expand...

Warranted police officers lost and replaced by PCSOs, otherwise known as Blunkettâ€™s Bobbies. 

You might kid yourself but youâ€™re not kidding anyone that worked through it; this mess was started on Labourâ€™s watch and the blame lies fully with them.


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## Dando (Oct 26, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Warranted police officers lost and replaced by PCSOs, otherwise known as Blunkettâ€™s Bobbies. 

You might kid yourself but youâ€™re not kidding anyone that worked through it; this mess was started on Labourâ€™s watch and the blame lies fully with them.
		
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Richard, stop talking sense my friend!


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Warranted police officers lost and replaced by PCSOs, otherwise known as Blunkettâ€™s Bobbies.

You might kid yourself but youâ€™re not kidding anyone that worked through it; this mess was started on Labourâ€™s watch and the blame lies fully with them.
		
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Yes it was started under Labour but the Tories have had 9 years to change the Labour policy. Sorry but you can't lay the last 9 years solely on Labour


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yes it was started under Labour but the Tories have had 9 years to change the Labour policy. Sorry but you can't lay the last 9 years solely on Labour
		
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So having got them in under Labour the Tories are just supposed to sack them are they? The decision should never have been made in the first place. Sorry Brian, weâ€™ll have to disagree on this one.


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So having got them in under Labour the Tories are just supposed to sack them are they? The decision should never have been made in the first place. Sorry Brian, weâ€™ll have to disagree on this one.
		
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They didn't have to be sacked. But 20,000 FTE's were not replaced from 2010 to 2019 under the Tories. They could have been replaced by full time officers, and the PCSO's kept at the 2010 level. As the PCSO's left or were good enough to take up a position of Police Officers, the PCSO's would then reduce by natural wastage. To a certain extent, appreciate the difference in salaries, full time officer numbers could have been maintained close to the 2010 level.

Yes you have first hand experience of it but are you saying a policy couldn't be reversed? Sorry, like you said, we'll just have to disagree on it. The finer detail I'll concede on but not the overarching policy that could have been changed.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			I assume, in the form of natural justice, you will have notified those responsible rather than simply close a thread upon which others post with a degree of responsibility. 
It a subject of national interest where views can be strongly held and forceably expressed.

We are grown up, I think!
		
Click to expand...

This is first and foremost a golf forum, we allow stuff other than golf to be discussed as it generally enriches the forum and creates a community atmosphere.

However there is a history of political/ religious/ sexual orientation / football   threads getting out of hand.

It is our policy to nip any agro in the bud. Discipline any members that infringe the rules and carry on.

Sometimes when there is a bit of a bundle we will temporarily suspend a thread overnight to allow tempers to cool, but we reserve the right to permanently close a thread if it is causing too much trouble.

Your moderators are unpaid volunteers who also supposedly have lives, we shouldnâ€™t need to do much as you are all grown ups, 

But if we find that we are having to step in to stop spats then we will take action and sorry if this action upsets the majority of responsible posters.

We can only respond to what members post, if they post responsibly then life is good, by all means disagree, but there are ways to disagree that donâ€™t involve swearing or insults or trolling.

Going back to what remains of my life now ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Is what why?  Selling the gold caused the global financial crisis?

It would seem to me to be wrong to blame austerity (such as it was) on higher welfare spending on tax credits. Thatâ€™s a very small portion of the Government welfare spend - but it is an easy target.
		
Click to expand...

I canâ€™t recall stating that selling off the gold caused anything ? - Iâ€™m was sort of asking why Labour decided to sell off billions worth of gold cheap to China and why a Labour government decided to massively overspend on benefits. Labour arenâ€™t to blame for the financial crisis but they have a hand in how it affected the UK , and forced the Tories hand by having to bring in austerity measures.

It seems itâ€™s a trend - Labour overspend and Tories make the cuts - it would be nice to have a break from the pair of them


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## Hitdaball (Oct 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I canâ€™t recall stating that selling off the gold caused anything ? - Iâ€™m was sort of asking why Labour decided to sell off billions worth of gold cheap to China and why a Labour government decided to massively overspend on benefits. Labour arenâ€™t to blame for the financial crisis but they have a hand in how it affected the UK , and forced the Tories hand by having to bring in austerity measures.

It seems itâ€™s a trend - Labour overspend and Tories make the cuts - it would be nice to have a break from the pair of them
		
Click to expand...

Apologies then , Iâ€™d assumed it must have been connected to my post as you quoted it ðŸ˜†. 

For the oft repeated ascertain that Labour spending on welfare got us into this mess have a read of below.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess-8601390.html


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I canâ€™t recall stating that selling off the gold caused anything ? - Iâ€™m was sort of asking why Labour decided to sell off billions worth of gold cheap to China and why a Labour government decided to massively overspend on benefits. Labour arenâ€™t to blame for the financial crisis but they have a hand in how it affected the UK , and forced the Tories hand by having to bring in austerity measures.

It seems itâ€™s a trend - Labour overspend and Tories make the cuts - it would be nice to have a break from the pair of them
		
Click to expand...

The Gold wasnâ€™t sold off cheap at the time, it was sold at the then market value.
If heâ€™d of had a crystal ball heâ€™d of probably made a different decision.
Every Country has Gold reserves and as it sits in vaults itâ€™s not making any money, he sold the Gold and bought investment bonds, which instantly made interest.
Was it bad timing, yes, with hindsight, but Iâ€™m sure weâ€™d of all bought shares in Apple if weâ€™d only known.


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## patricks148 (Oct 26, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Warranted police officers lost and replaced by PCSOs, otherwise known as Blunkettâ€™s Bobbies.

You might kid yourself but youâ€™re not kidding anyone that worked through it; this mess was started on Labourâ€™s watch and the blame lies fully with them.
		
Click to expand...

what the blame for the 600 police stations closed and 20. 000 officers lost since the Conservatives came to powere in 2010 is labour fault then?


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## drdel (Oct 26, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This is first and foremost a golf forum, we allow stuff other than golf to be discussed as it generally enriches the forum and creates a community atmosphere.

However there is a history of political/ religious/ sexual orientation / football   threads getting out of hand.

It is our policy to nip any agro in the bud. Discipline any members that infringe the rules and carry on.

Sometimes when there is a bit of a bundle we will temporarily suspend a thread overnight to allow tempers to cool, but we reserve the right to permanently close a thread if it is causing too much trouble.

Your moderators are unpaid volunteers who also supposedly have lives, we shouldnâ€™t need to do much as you are all grown ups,

But if we find that we are having to step in to stop spats then we will take action and sorry if this action upsets the majority of responsible posters.

We can only respond to what members post, if they post responsibly then life is good, by all means disagree, but there are ways to disagree that donâ€™t involve swearing or insults or trolling.

Going back to what remains of my life now ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding. I do understand that a few just bicker, that's life. Temporarily ban them then 3 strikes and you're out.


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## 2blue (Oct 26, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This is first and foremost a golf forum, we allow stuff other than golf to be discussed as it generally enriches the forum and creates a community atmosphere.

However there is a history of political/ religious/ sexual orientation / football   threads getting out of hand.

It is our policy to nip any agro in the bud. Discipline any members that infringe the rules and carry on.

Sometimes when there is a bit of a bundle we will temporarily suspend a thread overnight to allow tempers to cool, but we reserve the right to permanently close a thread if it is causing too much trouble.

Your moderators are unpaid volunteers who also supposedly have lives, we shouldnâ€™t need to do much as you are all grown ups,

But if we find that we are having to step in to stop spats then we will take action and sorry if this action upsets the majority of responsible posters.

We can only respond to what members post, if they post responsibly then life is good, by all means disagree, but there are ways to disagree that donâ€™t involve swearing or insults or trolling.

Going back to what remains of my life now ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Fragger for Speakers Role!!


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## 2blue (Oct 26, 2019)

Guess that's me out then...


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

2blue said:



			Guess that's me out then...  

Click to expand...

Bluey for PM. As its blue Dave are you a Tory??

Sorry Dave, I just couldn't stop myself


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2019)

We have a number of PCSO's on the town and they seem to do a good job. They are visible as they mainly patrol on foot, they are seen to be in touch with the community and know who the regular problem people are and how to deal with them.  I would guess they are a great resource of information and help to the regular Police.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2019)

__ https://www.facebook.com/878283518935402/posts/2518178604945877


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/878283518935402/posts/2518178604945877





Click to expand...

Oh yes, they should all stick to their principals.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes, they should all stick to their principals.











Click to expand...

Maybe worth putting those into the thread for Corbyn - irrelevant to what Boris Johnson says ðŸ™„


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/878283518935402/posts/2518178604945877





Click to expand...

Spot on! Good article in todayâ€™s paper about him.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188352845441048576


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2019)

Certain posters right now looking for a Corbyn article.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe worth putting those into the thread for Corbyn - irrelevant to what Boris Johnson says ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Just pointing out its not just Boris that changes his mind.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Certain posters right now looking for a Corbyn article.
View attachment 28427

Click to expand...

Because its so easy. Just like some posters looking for a Boris one  ðŸ™„


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just pointing out its not just Boris that changes his mind.







Click to expand...

Itâ€™s donâ€™t think anyone has suggested itâ€™s just Boris Johnson that changes his mind - this is the Boris Johnson thread and itâ€™s showing him to be a liar and a hyprocrite - your only response as per normal is just posts of â€œwhataboutaryâ€


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## ger147 (Oct 27, 2019)

Maybe a clue to why Corbyn isn't so keen to have a general election after all...

https://news.sky.com/story/tories-surge-to-16-point-lead-over-labour-poll-11846200


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Certain posters right now looking for a Corbyn article.
View attachment 28427

Click to expand...

You need to use that picture again, on any subject ðŸ¤£. That's a genius meme.


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## shagster (Oct 28, 2019)

johnson is a lying buffoon
i can not believe people are gullible enough to  believe the trash he comes out with
even his own family think he is a prize -----
i would have more faith in gove or his ilk about brexit
johnson only came out for brexit to go against cameron
if cameron had said leave, johnson would have said stay, he had already written the argument for it
as for austerity, 9 years of lousy government and all they have achieved is making the rich richer and doubling the national debt
oh i forgot its all browns fault


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2019)

Borisâ€™s media will make him look good by showing Corbyn look like a traitor with headlines like these..


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

Boris has invited 10 of the Tory rebels back, no room for Hammond or Grieve the snakes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189266605525684229
Not sure how anyone could ever want such a disrespectful human being as our leader


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## Hitdaball (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189266605525684229
Not sure how anyone could ever want such a disrespectful human being as our leader
		
Click to expand...

They  will vote for him in their droves.   Crude , clear messages of little substance appealing to instinct rather than intellect, repeated as nauseam.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			They  will vote for him in their droves.   Crude , clear messages of little substance appealing to instinct rather than intellect, repeated as nauseam.
		
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To quote Forest â€œStupid is as stupid does.â€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

I wonder if this Religious Leader’s comments will get the same publicity or reaction?
Archbishop Justin Welby voices concern over UK direction https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50803899


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50805900


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## woofers (Dec 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



View attachment 28771

Click to expand...

The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another loss.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another loss.
		
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Don’t go there you know 37% of the UK population voted leave ... it’s just going to become a total pooh fest when you drag this type of information up. 
What can be said is the snp were always reliant on the English to vote in a manner that would give them a voice. Boris has a majority and stuck his fingers in his ears .. I am really sorry, if that is too blunt and I apologise to the Scots for being dragged into this. 
Boris needs to make a determined effort to win back some hearts and minds by giving the Scots something. Don’t ask me what it is, I don’t want a rift


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## woofers (Dec 16, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t go there you know 37% of the UK population voted leave ...
		
Click to expand...

You’re misunderstanding my statistic. I’m quoting the actual % of votes cast at the election.
in the EU referendum 52% that cast their vote, voted leave.


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## Dando (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			You’re misunderstanding my statistic. I’m quoting the actual % of votes cast at the election.
in the EU referendum 52% that cast their vote, voted leave.
		
Click to expand...

don't confuse him with facts


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## harpo_72 (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			You’re misunderstanding my statistic. I’m quoting the actual % of votes cast at the election.
in the EU referendum 52% that cast their vote, voted leave.
		
Click to expand...

It’s still a majority vote the others split between Tory and labour + independent.. also was labour not offering a referendum but delayed? So if you add their percentage to the snp where do you get to?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 16, 2019)

Dando said:



			don't confuse him with facts
		
Click to expand...

Reported .. unnecessary


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2019)

Reflections after the weekend.   Tongue firmly in cheek.....

Boris may be the first PM to be elected because he wasn't the other bloke!

Antifa take to the streets, proving they are not "anti" at all,  but actually are the *"fa!"*

Do folk vote SNP in General Elections cos they would never vote Tory, wouldn't vote for Corbyn for the same reasons as the rest of the UK, and Lib Dims . well.............. BUT, would vote Remain in an Inde Ref?  (just asking!)

Some folk seem to think that votes not cast  *count!"*   (usually folk that have lost!!)   ............or assume that if those folk voted, it would be for them!

Caroline Lucas Tweeted that Boris didn't have a mandate to be PM, (eh, he won!)  and Mr Corbyn said he'd won the argument but not the election.   (well he was half right for once)

Lefties in the education system demand diversity of representation in everything, except the political leanings of those employed in the education system!  

Some politicos think_ First past the Post _is a bad system, but they didn't like PR when it also delivered a result they disapproved of.

Momentum were shocked to learn than there are people living outside the M25, they have television and get to vote in elections!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



 I wonder if this Religious Leader’s comments will get the same publicity or reaction?
Archbishop Justin Welby voices concern over UK direction https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50803899

Click to expand...

You mean the same publicity and reaction as precipitated by his comments about Labour Party / Corbyn-perceived antisemitism not long before the GE?


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

Simple facts...
Referendum was a UK wide vote, MPs voted in HoC by big majority to hold it, the decision was made by whole of UK.
The GE was for a UK government.
Scotland is part of the UK and it alone said it wished to stay 'in'; just 5 years ago for at least a generation.
'Englanders' do not get a vote on the devolved Assemblies and there is no 'Assembly' for England so Scottish, Welsh, NI yet their representatives get to vote on 'English' matters!
When the Union was formed centuries ago all the nations wanted it because of their financial needs; so ALL the nations should have the right on how/whether (after a generation) it should be broken.
Devolved Assembly of Scotland hasn't managed to competently manage its affairs (largely because Sturgeon is fixated on war with UK government).
Joining the EU would make Scotland much worse off.

Time to be mature and get on with being a 'good' Assembly for the Scots!


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Simple facts...
Referendum was a UK wide vote, MPs voted in HoC by big majority to hold it, the decision was made by whole of UK.
The GE was for a UK government.
Scotland is part of the UK and it alone said it wished to stay 'in'; just 5 years ago for at least a generation.
'Englanders' do not get a vote on the devolved Assemblies and there is no 'Assembly' for England so Scottish, Welsh, NI yet their representatives get to vote on 'English' matters!
When the Union was formed centuries ago all the nations wanted it because of their financial needs; so ALL the nations should have the right on how/whether (after a generation) it should be broken.
Devolved Assembly of Scotland hasn't managed to competently manage its affairs (largely because Sturgeon is fixated on war with UK government).
Joining the EU would make Scotland much worse off.

Time to be mature and get on with being a 'good' Assembly for the Scots!
		
Click to expand...

The Prime minister of the day DC said to the scotish people a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, the only way Scoland could be in the EU was to vote to stay, turns out  that was not the case and many voted to stay for that reason.

Scotland should be able to make its own decision on its future


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			The Prime minister of the day DC said to the scootish people a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, the only way Scoland could be in the EU was to vote to say, turns out  that was not the case and many voted to stay for that reason.

*Scotland should be able to make its own decision on its futur*e
		
Click to expand...

Yup Scotland 'was' a sovereign nation until it wanted the Union because it was bankrupt and was then bailed out. Thus as we are still a Union, by your logic England is entitled to the same approach - which would be unhelpful! - the GE gives the PM the responsibility for governing the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			The Prime minister of the day DC said to the scootish people a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, the only way Scoland could be in the EU was to vote to say, turns out  that was not the case and many voted to stay for that reason.

Scotland should be able to make its own decision on its future
		
Click to expand...

His comments were only advisory.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup Scotland 'was' a sovereign nation until it wanted the Union because it was bankrupt and was then bailed out. Thus as we are still a Union, by your logic England is entitled to the same approach - which would be unhelpful! - the GE gives the PM the responsibility for governing the UK.
		
Click to expand...

when was this then? if you are talking about 1707 there was more that one factor and the main one was Scoland not shosing a different sovereign to England

How, its not Englands Future, and at the moment you have quita a say in Scotland, with very little if any support...

 look at Ireland the UK had its say in not allowing an idependant Ireland what happened there?  no doubt you are in favour of China stance on Hong Kong too?


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

Apparently Boris and the Conservative party want to change the Constiuency Boundaries and the Fixed Term Parliament act..

i foreseee Scoland only having one Constituency and he being a fan of the Classics and Rome, Dictator for life


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## Dando (Dec 16, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Reported .. unnecessary
		
Click to expand...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

On the 19,000 nurses that Johnson is going to persuade to stay.

Well on Saturday Mrs Hogie met up with 6 of her midwifery cohort of 9 - from her midwifery training 30yrs ago.  They are all in the 55+ age group - and ALL are taking their lump sum as soon as possible.  One has said she'll go back two days a week.  The rest just can't wait to finish - nothing would entice them to stay.  Nursing and Midwifery in the NHS today is not what they trained for - what they were passionate about.  They ALL had experience of terrible care in the NHS and in one instance one was ashamed to think of herself as a nurse given the care she was seeing doled out to a parent.

Their consensus view was that with his objective of retraining 19,000 nurses, Johnson hasn't a clue about nurses about to leave and why.  And this is the same view expressed by my wife's other group of nursing friends of the same age.  I don't know if it is true - but I am told (by MrsH) that 40% of nurses are due to retire in the next 5 years (even if that's wrong - there are a lot of experienced nurses approaching the age they can take their 'lump sum').  Now given what I'm hearing from a sample of that group - our new PM has quite a challenge on his hands.

BTW - one thing that _could _persuade some nurses due to take their lump sum that might entice them back (I doubt anything can make them stay), would be removing the constraint that stops nurses going back to work in the NHS full - or near to full - time.  It seems that most nurses who take their lump sum can only go back 2-3 days a week.  And that means recruiting 2 retired nurses for every one of the 19,000 full timers sought.


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			when was this then? if you are talking about 1707 there was more that one factor and the main one was Scoland not shosing a different sovereign to England

How, its not *Englands Future,* and at the moment you have quita a say in Scotland, with very little if any support...

look at Ireland the UK had its say in not allowing an idependant Ireland what happened there?  no doubt you are in favour of* China stance on Hong Kong* too?
		
Click to expand...

1 England's future is as part of a Union; that matters to the Union's democracy and thus English citizens.
2. Being a bit silly IMO. China/HK: entirely different - HK didn't want an historic agreement to take place. Scotland wanted the Union and was given a democratic opportunity and voted to continue the relationship.

Our opinions differ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Scotland wanted the Union
		
Click to expand...

Some (a very few) of Scotland wanted the Union


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			1 England's future is as part of a Union; that matters to the Union's democracy and thus English citizens.
2. Being a bit silly IMO. China/HK: entirely different - HK didn't want an historic agreement to take place. Scotland wanted the Union and was given a democratic opportunity and voted to continue the relationship.

Our opinions differ...
		
Click to expand...

They do indeed, one country has a say over the others as long as it suites the ruling country, old fashioned imperialism.

Scotland and Wales suffered underfunding for years, this is what has caused Nationalism in these countries, Ni won't be far away  from asking of a UI, so forgive me and others on here tdon;t agree   what England thinks is best for Scotland isn't what Scotland wants or deserves


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			They do indeed, one country has a say over the others as long as it suites the ruling country, *old fashioned imperialism*.

*Scoland* and Wales suffered underfunding for years, this is what has caused Nationalism in these countries, Ni won't be far away  from asking of a UI, so forgive me and others on here tdon;t agree   what England thinks is best for Scotland isn't what *Scoland* wants or deserves
		
Click to expand...

I'd say modern international economics . ( Is this the new name post indyref2 ?)


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'd say modern international economics . ( Is this the new name post indyref2 ?)
		
Click to expand...

call it what you like, but does not  change what it is


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			call it what you like, but does not  change what it is
		
Click to expand...

Sorry you can't see I was only trying to lighten the debate but we're just bickering now so I'll stop responding. HaND.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2019)

Why has Wales and Scotland suffered underfunding, the point is why do they need funding?  Could  it be that they are not able to fund themselves, in which case independence would not be a good policy.


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## Mudball (Dec 16, 2019)

Just out of curiosity (and ignorance).. why do the SNP have a noose as their logo/emblem ?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			They do indeed, one country has a say over the others as long as it suites the ruling country, old fashioned imperialism.

Scotland and Wales suffered underfunding for years, this is what has caused Nationalism in these countries, Ni won't be far away  from asking of a UI, so forgive me and others on here tdon;t agree   what England thinks is best for Scotland isn't what Scotland wants or deserves
		
Click to expand...

If i were BoJo, I would set a date of 2034 to have another vote if the Scottish parliament at that time wants it. Is 20 years a generation - it will do. Then in the meantime, it gives Scotland 15 years to see if balancing the books is something that they are capable of, how negatively/positively Brexit affects them and also answer several of the other questions of currency for post Scotchit and what that that will mean in terms of joining the EU - i.e. have the EU set out what criteria need fulfilling so the people of Scotland fully understand.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just out of curiosity (and ignorance).. why do the SNP have a noose as their logo/emblem ?
		
Click to expand...

If i told you i would have to kill you


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just out of curiosity (and ignorance).. why do the SNP have a noose as their logo/emblem ?
		
Click to expand...

Google's your friend!


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			If i were BoJo, I would set a date of 2034 to have another vote if the Scottish parliament at that time wants it. Is 20 years a generation - it will do. Then in the meantime, it gives Scotland 15 years to see if balancing the books is something that they are capable of, how negatively/positively Brexit affects them and also answer several of the other questions of currency for post Scotchit and what that that will mean in terms of joining the EU - i.e. have the EU set out what criteria need fulfilling so the people of Scotland fully understand.
		
Click to expand...

Actually a sensible idea, kick the can down the road whilst also taking some of the wind out of the SNP sails in the short to medium term by giving them what they want. Phrase it along the lines of it not being a meaningful vote until Brexit has had a chance to settle down and bed in. 

Going to be an interesting few months. Boris has a large majority and a manifesto written in very broad strokes so very few policy ties. Would like to see how it pans out now.


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## Mudball (Dec 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Google's your friend!
		
Click to expand...

Googling it makes no sense..  If someone has to explain a brand pic.. 

_Despite the fact that the National Party of Scotland (1928), became the Scottish National Party after merging with the smaller, Scottish Party in 1933, people still aren’t sure what their logo actually is. Some people see it as a ribbon, whereas others see it as a kind of Celtic symbol.

The truth is that the SNP logo actually a stylised combination of the “Saltire”, the diagonal cross on the Scottish flag, and a thistle, the national flower of Scotland. While the Saltire is the cross that the Romans apparently crucified St Andrew on, the thistle is their ancient symbol of nobility. In other words, they’re going for heritage, culture, and dignity._


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## ger147 (Dec 16, 2019)

Fixed Term Parliament Act going in the bin according to rumours re. what will be in the Queen's speech.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Fixed Term Parliament Act going in the bin according to rumours re. what will be in the Queen's speech.
		
Click to expand...

It has not really worked has it? If it is not working, bin it off.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Fixed Term Parliament Act going in the bin according to rumours re. what will be in the Queen's speech.
		
Click to expand...

It was in their manifesto, so not a big surprise.


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## ger147 (Dec 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It has not really worked has it? If it is not working, bin it off.
		
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It was introduced by Cameron as part of the price of the Lib Dems going into the coalition. It was the LD's guarantee that DC couldn't ditch them via a snap election as soon as the opinion polls turned in his favour.

No surprise it's getting binned.


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## ger147 (Dec 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It was in their manifesto, so not a big surprise.
		
Click to expand...

Very few manifesto "pledges" make it onto the statute books in my experience


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Very few manifesto "pledges" make it onto the statute books in my experience 

Click to expand...

Normally only those that strengthen the “winners” position.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Googling it makes no sense..  If someone has to explain a brand pic..

_Despite the fact that the National Party of Scotland (1928), became the Scottish National Party after merging with the smaller, Scottish Party in 1933, people still aren’t sure what their logo actually is. Some people see it as a ribbon, whereas others see it as a kind of Celtic symbol._

_The truth is that the SNP logo actually a stylised combination of the “Saltire”, the diagonal cross on the Scottish flag, and a thistle, the national flower of Scotland. While the Saltire is the cross that the Romans apparently crucified St Andrew on, the thistle is their ancient symbol of nobility. In other words, they’re going for heritage, culture, and dignity._

Click to expand...

Did Google give you the answer? Yes.

Does the answer make sense? That's up to you!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 16, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			If i were BoJo, I would set a date of 2034 to have another vote if the Scottish parliament at that time wants it. Is 20 years a generation - it will do. Then in the meantime, it gives Scotland 15 years to see if balancing the books is something that they are capable of, how negatively/positively Brexit affects them and also answer several of the other questions of currency for post Scotchit and what that that will mean in terms of joining the EU - i.e. have the EU set out what criteria need fulfilling so the people of Scotland fully understand.
		
Click to expand...




GB72 said:



			Actually a sensible idea, kick the can down the road whilst also taking some of the wind out of the SNP sails in the short to medium term by giving them what they want. Phrase it along the lines of it not being a meaningful vote until Brexit has had a chance to settle down and bed in.

Going to be an interesting few months. Boris has a large majority and a manifesto written in very broad strokes so very few policy ties. Would like to see how it pans out now.
		
Click to expand...

It might seem like a good idea now, it certainly would take the wind out of the SNP sails, 
But
Fast forward 14 years to the build up to indyref2034. As with any target date, the build up equals a period of uncertainty beforehand, which could be a couple of years or so.

The economy doesn’t like uncertainty, it leads to underinvestment , so if this idea goes ahead, they have 14 years to show Scotland that they do not need the SNP. 

Definitely going to be an interesting few years


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

Giving Goldsmith a Life Peerage for doing absolutely nothing but lose elections is pretty much a kick in the teeth for democracy, Morgan I can sort of live with as she resigned as an MP and wasn’t rejected by her constituents.

So now we have we 2 unelected officials in the Cabinet on £70K a year.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Giving Goldsmith a Life Peerage for doing absolutely nothing but lose elections is pretty much a kick in the teeth for democracy, Morgan I can sort of live with as she resigned as an MP and wasn’t rejected by her constituents.

So now we have we 2 unelected officials in the Cabinet on £70K a year.
		
Click to expand...

I'm hugely against the Honours system, it has been abused for years. This type of thing has gone on for decades now, giving peerages to your mates when they lose a seat, retire etc. The Lords needs binning off, being unlected should exclude you from cabinet (and can I also end the whole Honours system? Give people a medal, not a title. Works in other countries)

Rant over


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm hugely against the Honours system, it has been abused for years. This type of thing has gone on for decades now, giving peerages to your mates when they lose a seat, retire etc. The Lords needs binning off, being unlected should exclude you from cabinet (and can I also end the whole Honours system? Give people a medal, not a title. Works in other countries)

Rant over 

Click to expand...

I’ve no problem any Government bringing in temporary specialists to advise/help on certain subjects etc.
But to bring Goldsmith back the day after he was rejected by the public with a life peerage absolutely stinks. 
He’s done nothing to deserve that award, he’s not got the background or experience to be invaluable to the Cabinet.
Job for the boys!
Equally frustrating Blair did it twice.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve no problem any Government bringing in temporary specialists to advise/help on certain subjects etc.
But to bring Goldsmith back the day after he was rejected by the public with a life peerage absolutely stinks.
He’s done nothing to deserve that award, he’s not got the background or experience to be invaluable to the Cabinet.
Job for the boys!
Equally frustrating Blair did it twice.
		
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They have all done it. Harold Wilson is credited with being the first to do it in such a cynical way, but everyone since him has been as bad. I agree with you, employ them as advisors but Dame Nicky Morgan, for services to incompetence? and Lord Goldsmith, services to election defeats? It sticks in the throat. If we meet them we are expected to use the title . Not bloomin likely.

Not long now until we get the New Years Honours List and I can get angry all over again .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They have all done it. Harold Wilson is credited with being the first to do it in such a cynical way, but everyone since him has been as bad. I agree with you, employ them as advisors but Dame Nicky Morgan, for services to incompetence? and Lord Goldsmith, services to election defeats? It sticks in the throat. If we meet them we are expected to use the title . Not bloomin likely.

Not long now until we get the New Years Honours List and I can get angry all over again .
		
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Probably see some of boris’s pals like Cummings get an award.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably see some of boris’s pals like Cummings get an award.

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Theresa May gave honours to her two failed advisors so why not? In Cummings defence, horrible man by the way, at least he delivered a stonking victory. Saying all that, all of these people are getting rewards for simply doing their job. They don't do it for free, they get paid. (rant clearly not yet over )


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Giving Goldsmith a Life Peerage for doing absolutely nothing but lose elections is pretty much a kick in the teeth for democracy, Morgan I can sort of live with as she resigned as an MP and wasn’t rejected by her constituents.

So now we have we 2 unelected officials in the Cabinet on £70K a year.
		
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i agree - very hard to argue any case for Goldsmith being deserving of a peerage


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2019)

Political party's been doing this for a long time. Time for it to stop.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

IMO there has been a case for reform in the second chamber for a long time. Maybe either a proportional representation  of senators based on the house of Commons divisions or an elected body.  It can't be right the way parties like the LibDems have such numbers in the HOL.  No more life peerages, that's outdated and  smells of privilege.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2019)

I totally agree that the HOL needs a complete make over. Maybe a much smaller elected chamber of around 200 - 400 members and a fair representation from across the country - not sure of the best way - maybe it should be done on a local authority or even county council basis. I think there should be fixed term positions - maybe 5 or 7 year not hereditary or life membership


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

If the reports in tomorrows Independent is correct I hope we’ll see them thrown out and at a minimum condemned by the tory party.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ervatives-support-britain-first-a9252201.html


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## spongebob59 (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If the reports in tomorrows Independent is correct I hope we’ll see them thrown out and at a minimum condemned by the tory party.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ervatives-support-britain-first-a9252201.html

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agreed ,nip these things in the bud.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If the reports in tomorrows Independent is correct I hope we’ll see them thrown out and at a minimum condemned by the tory party.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ervatives-support-britain-first-a9252201.html

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How would they recognise them to throw them out.


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## Dando (Dec 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How would they recognise them to throw them out.
		
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It’s easy... they’re the ones who's  knuckles scrape along the floor when they walk to Wetherspoons at 7am for 15 pints of wife beater


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

i see the one nation tory party are paying back the loaned votes from the working class by cutting workers rights from the WB and dropping the living wage pledge... didn't take them long


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i see the one nation tory party are paying back the loaned votes from the working class by cutting workers rights from the WB and dropping the living wage pledge... didn't take them long
		
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I don't get why Johnson is dropping protection of workers rights from the WA given the answer that is given when asked, is that the UK will always be looking to *improve *upon these rights.  So why remove protection of the new 'bottom line' on these rights.  

And yes - increases in Living Wage pledged by Javid in the Tory Party conference will now only happen “provided economic conditions allow”.  Well, sounds to me that those getting paid the living wage best not be holding their breath...


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't get why Johnson is dropping protection of workers rights from the WA given the answer that is given when asked, is that the UK will always be looking to *improve *upon these rights.  So why remove protection of the new 'bottom line' on these rights. 

And yes - increases in Living Wage pledged by Javid in the Tory Party conference will now only happen “provided economic conditions allow”.  Well, sounds to me that those getting paid the living wage best not be holding their breath...
		
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Improve for who would be the question....


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

It is not 'cutting' workers rights it is just the removing surplus text from the Act.

The UK has good rights enshrined in regulations which are adopted and well enforced and there is no reason to believe that will change. Many of our EU friends have the legislation but are somewhat lax in its application and enforcement - why do we always paint the UK as the villain?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			It is not 'cutting' workers rights it is just the removing surplus text from the Act.

The UK has good rights enshrined in regulations which are adopted and well enforced and there is no reason to believe that will change. Many of our EU friends have the legislation but are somewhat lax in its application and enforcement - why do we always paint the UK as the villain?
		
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So why remove the protections that are in place?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			It is not 'cutting' workers rights it is just the removing surplus text from the Act.

The UK has good rights enshrined in regulations which are adopted and well enforced and there is no reason to believe that will change. Many of our EU friends have the legislation but are somewhat lax in its application and enforcement - why do we always paint the UK as the villain?
		
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I remember when the 'working hours directive' was introduced I called our German division and asked how they were implementing it, they said they didnt know anything about it.


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## robinthehood (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I remember when the 'working hours directive' was introduced I called our German division and asked how they were implementing it, they said they didnt know anything about it.
		
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Not a surprise,  German labour laws were  very much in favour of the employee already.


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not a surprise,  German labour laws were  very much in favour of the employee already.
		
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Which is just one example of the theory that the EU will harmonise actions in member states does not work in practise after 40 years of experimenting.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not a surprise,  German labour laws were  very much in favour of the employee already.
		
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Yes, Just like the UK, no one needs EU workers rights laws.


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## robinthehood (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, Just like the UK, no one needs EU workers rights laws.
		
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We opted out of them... and work some of the longest hours in Europe.


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			being unlected should exclude you from cabinet
		
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I am in two minds about that, because just being elected an MP doesn’t necessarily qualify anyone to be on the cabinet either.
This is where in principle (and if the current guy wouldn’t abuse it) like the US system. The president nominated someone qualified who then is ratified by elected people.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			We opted out of them... and work some of the longest hours in Europe.
		
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No we never. Individuals can opt out but employeers cannot insist on it.
Have you worked in Germany? My experience is that they work very long hours.


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## robinthehood (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No we never. Individuals can opt out but employeers cannot insist on it.
Have you worked in Germany? My experience is that they work very long hours.
		
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Ok fair enough it is up.to the individual ,  have you tried to opt out ? I Did many years ago when we signed up and was told in no uncertain terms that I would lose my job. So yay to the opt out.
I have worked all over Europe,  and thanks to being the son of an immigrant it will thankfully still be easy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2019)

larmen said:



			I am in two minds about that, because just being elected an MP doesn’t necessarily qualify anyone to be on the cabinet either.
This is where in principle (and if the current guy wouldn’t abuse it) like the US system. The president nominated someone qualified who then is ratified by elected people.
		
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Very few ministers are actually qualified to do their job, they learn on the job on the whole. The point about being elected is that we, the public, get the chance to remove them. That is pretty important imo. 

Don't forget they will not be quizzed in the House by MPs, they are not allowed in the HoC. That makes them even less open to scrutiny. Have them as advisers, not as top dog.


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2019)

Yes, hence the 2 minds.

Saying that, some people are clearly not qualified but because of party politics they get save seats and ministerial positions, there is no way for you to get them out.

In that Germany is even worse because of the list system party favourites are guaranteed a seat as candidates are not relying on a constituency at all.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very few ministers are actually qualified to do their job, they learn on the job on the whole. The point about being elected is that we, the public, get the chance to remove them. That is pretty important imo.

Don't forget they will not be quizzed in the House by MPs, they are not allowed in the HoC. That makes them even less open to scrutiny. Have them as advisers, not as top dog.
		
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Any/all ministers in senior posts are subject to scrutiny in the House of Commons.  Most of the proper/real questioning and scrutiny is done by the various Select committees rather than the pantomime stuff you see on the floor of the chamber, and you don't have to be an MP to have to attend select committees for questioning.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very few ministers are actually qualified to do their job, they learn on the job on the whole. The point about being elected is that we, the public, get the chance to remove them. That is pretty important imo. 

Don't forget they will not be quizzed in the House by MPs, they are not allowed in the HoC. That makes them even less open to scrutiny. Have them as advisers, not as top dog.
		
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Do we though? If Boris had lost his seat they would have just put him up in a Tory strong hold as a candidate and held a bi election so what power do we have?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ok fair enough it is up.to the individual ,  have you tried to opt out ? I Did many years ago when we signed up and was told in no uncertain terms that I would lose my job. So yay to the opt out.
I have worked all over Europe,  and thanks to being the son of an immigrant it will thankfully still be easy.
		
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No, as a Company Director I didnt get that choice, I just worked whatever it needed to keep my Employees in a good job and well motivated.  I didnt need government rules to understand how to get the best from my people and thats the same with most employers in my experience, they're not all Sports Direct or Amazon.  However I see no problems with workers having certain safeguards that protect them against exploitation,  I think the UK is quite capable of doing this all by its self though.

You may also be surprised that my wife is half and my children are quarter Polish.


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Most of the proper/real questioning and scrutiny is done by the various Select committees rather than the pantomime stuff you see on the floor of the chamber
		
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Woukd parliament and/or government get more done if PMQ wouldn’t be on TV? Proper work instead of sound bite politics?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Any/all ministers in senior posts are subject to scrutiny in the House of Commons.  Most of the proper/real questioning and scrutiny is done by the various Select committees rather than the pantomime stuff you see on the floor of the chamber, and you don't have to be an MP to have to attend select committees for questioning.
		
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That's a very fair point. It just doesn't sit right for me though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Do we though? If Boris had lost his seat they would have just put him up in a Tory strong hold as a candidate and held a bi election so what power do we have?
		
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Ultimately he would have been elected somewhere though. I doubt he would have got three attempts so he would have to win at the first, second, attempt.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2019)

larmen said:



			Woukd parliament and/or government get more done if PMQ wouldn’t be on TV? Proper work instead of sound bite politics?
		
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Almost no real work is done in the chamber IMO, it's either the full on punch and judy nonsense you see on TV or a chamber with 10 MP's talking about something relatively unimportant or worse, talking about something really important and no-one's there....

The votes are obviously required but very little else in the chamber is of any consequence.

In addition, as select committees are cross party, that is where politicians of different parties actually work together to get stuff done, scrutinise legislation in detail, well thought amendments are created etc.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately he would have been elected somewhere though. I doubt he would have got three attempts so he would have to win at the first, second, attempt.
		
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So we vote say Boris out his seat 

He gets put up in my borough which is a 65% strong hold 

He is gonna get in regardless they don't vote labour here


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			So we vote say Boris out his seat

He gets put up in my borough which is a 65% strong hold

He is gonna get in regardless they don't vote labour here
		
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He would have been elected though. It's an important principle.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He would have been elected though. It's an important principle.
		
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Not overly. In a broken system 

Oh Micheal gove got voted out ... No wait he back in somewhere he never even been


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Any/all ministers in senior posts are subject to scrutiny in the House of Commons.  Most of the proper/real questioning and scrutiny is done by the various Select committees rather than the pantomime stuff you see on the floor of the chamber, and you don't have to be an MP to have to attend select committees for questioning.
		
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Very well posted. The various Select Committees, ably supported by some excellent Civil Servants, get through a mountains of very good work. Perhaps what many people don’t realise is what is presented before a Select Committee has probably been subject to one hell of a lot of research by some very intelligent people long before it gets to Commitree stage.


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2020)

BoJo & Sunak open the taps..     I know these are different times..  but cant miss the irony ... from day 1 Corbyn became Labour leader, his plans for State intervention into economy were dismissed as Communism with claims it'd bankrupt Britain. Yet despite him having lost GE, Rishi Sunak announced levels of spending beyond even what Corbyn called for.  Now we are all BoJo & Sunak as super heros..   Sunak as next PM is trending on Twitter right now


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## harpo_72 (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BoJo & Sunak open the taps..     I know these are different times..  but cant miss the irony ... from day 1 Corbyn became Labour leader, his plans for State intervention into economy were dismissed as Communism with claims it'd bankrupt Britain. Yet despite him having lost GE, Rishi Sunak announced levels of spending beyond even what Corbyn called for.  Now we are all BoJo & Sunak as super heros..   Sunak as next PM is trending on Twitter right now
		
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Depends how big a hole it leaves ... it is required. But let’s not blame anyone else for it.


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## fundy (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BoJo & Sunak open the taps..     I know these are different times..  but cant miss the irony ... from day 1 Corbyn became Labour leader, his plans for State intervention into economy were dismissed as Communism with claims it'd bankrupt Britain. Yet despite him having lost GE, Rishi Sunak announced levels of spending beyond even what Corbyn called for.  Now we are all BoJo & Sunak as super heros..   Sunak as next PM is trending on Twitter right now
		
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why do people still want to politicise it and score points. why not support that they are trying to do the right thing in a very short time frame to try and get us through a world pandemic rather than compare it to what may have happened in entirely different circumstances

back under the rock for me


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2020)

fundy said:



			why do people still want to politicise it and score points. why not support that they are trying to do the right thing in a very short time frame to try and get us through a world pandemic rather than compare it to what may have happened in entirely different circumstances

back under the rock for me
		
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Not complaining or politizing .. he is doing what we need to do at this mo... so good on him. No wonder he is trending as future PM... 

Was sharing an observation (as I sit in solitary confinement)


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Not complaining or politizing .. he is doing what we need to do at this mo... so good on him. No wonder he is trending as future PM...

Was sharing an observation (as I sit in solitary confinement)
		
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Well it seems to have come over that you were implying that Corbyn would be as free spending if he had won the G E and would have been ( wrongly) criticised as a communist irresponsible spendthrift - but now that This government  are doing it, it is  good.  The use of the word irony suggesting criticism of Corbyn would have been wrong.
Are you really suggesting that what the Chancellor is doing now would be the right thing to do in normal times, in the absence of such a national crisis.?


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Not complaining or politizing .. he is doing what we need to do at this mo... so good on him. No wonder he is trending as future PM...

Was sharing an observation (as I sit in solitary confinement)
		
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Sharing observations....... how very, very dodgy .....  the government gestapo will be watching you.


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well it seems to have come over that you were implying that Corbyn would be as free spending if he had won the G E and would have been ( wrongly) criticised as a communist irresponsible spendthrift - but now that This government  are doing it, it is  good.  The use of the word irony suggesting criticism of Corbyn would have been wrong.
Are you really suggesting that what the Chancellor is doing now would be the right thing to do in normal times, in the absence of such a national crisis.?
		
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Oooophs... they've arrived. ......  & I've just managed to shake one off earlier today.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Not complaining or politizing .. he is doing what we need to do at this mo... so good on him. No wonder he is trending as future PM...

Was sharing an observation (as I sit in solitary confinement)
		
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Yes you were


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BoJo & Sunak open the taps..     I know these are different times..  but cant miss the irony ... from day 1 Corbyn became Labour leader, his plans for State intervention into economy were dismissed as Communism with claims it'd bankrupt Britain. Yet despite him having lost GE, Rishi Sunak announced levels of spending beyond even what Corbyn called for.  Now we are all BoJo & Sunak as super heros..   Sunak as next PM is trending on Twitter right now
		
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Yeah bloody Tories!





Anyone would think there is a wee crisis going on...😁


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

IanM said:



			Yeah bloody Tories!





Anyone would think there is a wee crisis going on...😁
		
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Yeah....  promoting Socialism when it suits them....   may even work out well for the Nation. Who'd have though it??


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## harpo_72 (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yeah....  promoting Socialism when it suits them....   may even work out well for the Nation. Who'd have though it?? 

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Isn’t it ironic ... mind you this is all Corbyn’s fault ! Have they got a new labour leader .. the press seem to be far too distracted with something else. Plus a number of Instagram girls have done some bending over pics in bikinis and that seems to have not generated much interest ... although I do like the clear canal pictures of Venice.


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BoJo & Sunak open the taps..     I know these are different times..  but cant miss the irony ... from day 1 Corbyn became Labour leader, his plans for State intervention into economy were dismissed as Communism with claims it'd bankrupt Britain. Yet despite him having lost GE, Rishi Sunak announced levels of spending beyond even what Corbyn called for.  Now we are all BoJo & Sunak as super heros..   Sunak as next PM is trending on Twitter right now
		
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When listening to it all live on the radio the first thing that came in to my head was, how are WE going to pay for all this, it will take decades to repay.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			When listening to it all live on the radio the first thing that came in to my head was, how are WE going to pay for all this, it will take decades to repay.
		
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And the alternative is....


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

Nice to see that the UK is on the verge of the biggest peace time crisis it has faced since the Spanish flu, and we have time to argue if the biggest Cock is red or blue.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2020)

I think most people thought the spending plans of Labour at the last election were in cloud cuckoo land *in normal times. *

It would have been interesting if this crisis had come a year into a Labour government which had already opened the coffers, borrowed up to the hilt, could they then have done what the Tories are doing now?

We will never know, all I can say is that this is a national emergency and I am impressed with the governments financial reaction so far, there are a few tweaks still needed, but the new chancellor who is having a baptism of fire is doing well.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 21, 2020)

Am relieved that BJ has finally had the balls to close down the pubs. Should have happened a week ago, asking people to behave responsibly was never going to work. Better late than never.

Fair play to the Chancellor though, am impressed with the package he has put together.

Next challenge for BJ is lock down, seems inevitable that is going to have to happen.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And the alternative is....
		
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I'm not suggesting it's wrong, it was just what came in to my head when listening to it.


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## Captainron (Mar 21, 2020)

BoJo is doing a bang up job. 

And how the hell is Corbyn still leader of Labour after such a long time?


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Captainron said:



			BoJo is doing a bang up job. 

And how the hell is Corbyn still leader of Labour after such a long time?
		
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Another election even Labour  can't win..?


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2020)

I am glad that BoJo put his weight behind the NHS.  Next save the Beebs too.    Ofcourse BoJo being BoJo, he will do what is suitable to him.

I have nothing against the tories and I think RiSu is doing a very good job..    


BTW, forget Labour, whats happening with the Libdems? Anyone still a liberal?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Am relieved that BJ has finally had the balls to close down the pubs. Should have happened a week ago, asking people to behave responsibly was never going to work. Better late than never.

Fair play to the Chancellor though, am impressed with the package he has put together.

Next challenge for BJ is lock down, seems inevitable that is going to have to happen.
		
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Quite right, seemingly Glasgow and Edinburgh pubs were rammed full last night...….idiots not giving a thought to contaminate friends and family.

Agree Chancellors package is a good move, worried if the infrastructure can cope with it. Also a good chance of internet crashing on a regular basis.
Sturgeon showing good strategic planning and leadership skills, Johnson could do a lot worse than taking her on board for the duration of the crisis.
London has to go on lockdown soon.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

He messed up closing the pubs at the end of the working week, had he done it Thursday night they wouldn't have been rammed full, mistake on his part there.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			He messed up closing the pubs at the end of the working week, had he done it Thursday night they wouldn't have been rammed full, mistake on his part there.
		
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Did his dad Johnson Sr stick two fingers up and said he was going to the pub


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			He messed up closing the pubs at the end of the working week, had he done it Thursday night they wouldn't have been rammed full, mistake on his part there.
		
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Was it a mistake on his part or did he only receive the advice from experts on Friday morning? I don't know and neither do you.


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## PieMan (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			He messed up closing the pubs at the end of the working week, had he done it Thursday night they wouldn't have been rammed full, mistake on his part there.
		
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Pubs in London and pretty much every major city are pretty full most nights of the week, probably more so on a Thursday night given how many people work from home on a Friday.

Given how fast this virus is spreading, every leader/government will be seen as making a 'mistake', but they are being advised by the medical and scientific experts on what best to do at that time.

IMHO no-one is making any mistakes - they are just trying to do what they believe is best given the evidence before them and the current circumstances.

Having worked at the heart of Government during a number of disease outbreaks I do know how hard the Cabinet, Government Ministers and advisers will be working to protect the country as best they can.

Once this is over that will be the time to properly take stock of the decisions that were made and how effective they were to enable the powers that be to plan for any future outbreaks.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Pubs in London and pretty much every major city are pretty full most nights of the week, probably more so on a Thursday night given how many people work from home on a Friday.

Given how fast this virus is spreading, every leader/government will be seen as making a 'mistake', but they are being advised by the medical and scientific experts on what best to do at that time.

IMHO no-one is making any mistakes - they are just trying to do what they believe is best given the evidence before them and the current circumstances.

Having worked at the heart of Government during a number of disease outbreaks I do know how hard the Cabinet, Government Ministers and advisers will be working to protect the country as best they can.

Once this is over that will be the time to properly take stock of the decisions that were made and how effective they were to enable the powers that be to plan for any future outbreaks.
		
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I agree. I hope when we look to learn lessons it does not become a search to blame people who are doing their best rather than learning process and investment plans for the future.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 21, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Pubs in London and pretty much every major city are pretty full most nights of the week, probably more so on a Thursday night given how many people work from home on a Friday.

Given how fast this virus is spreading, every leader/government will be seen as making a 'mistake', but they are being advised by the medical and scientific experts on what best to do at that time.

IMHO no-one is making any mistakes - they are just trying to do what they believe is best given the evidence before them and the current circumstances.

Having worked at the heart of Government during a number of disease outbreaks I do know how hard the Cabinet, Government Ministers and advisers will be working to protect the country as best they can.

Once this is over that will be the time to properly take stock of the decisions that were made and how effective they were to enable the powers that be to plan for any future outbreaks.
		
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I agree, I'm just glad we've got Whitty and  Vallance telling us the truth.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 21, 2020)

Our bars are closed, and with the financial hit caused by that, one assumes that several of them will never re-open.
People are now beginning to talk about the Great Depression 2.0, and it's more than a little disturbing.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

[QUOTE="Captainron, post: 2137183, member: 12688"*]BoJo is doing a bang up job. *

And how the hell is Corbyn still leader of Labour after such a long time?[/QUOTE]

Jury's out to me.  Yes he has mostly dropped the populist schtick for the time being (although the 12 week thing was a bit stupid) and is increasingly using experts to get his message across. However you could argue that is because he has such little trust from the general public due to his past behavior, which is not great look for a PM.  Also the fact he has filled his cabinet with mostly populist Brexiteers instead of minsters with gravitas and expertise could well come back to bite him in a national crisis. I am sure the current cabinet could have got Brexit done, not totally convinced about this challenge.

The Cummings stuff in the Times today could be a complete made up story or a worrying indication of who Boris was/is listening to.  It's not the time for freaks and weirdos. Plus I know it is a lot easier in hindsite, but I can't help thinking he has been a bit slow to impose and a bit too trusting of societies ability to listen to advice with the outcome being at times confusion. I think his actions (or lack of) over the next few days will be critical.

As for Labour then they are fading into insignificance at the moment, and unfortunately this is just continuing the trend of the last few years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jury's out to me.  Yes he has mostly dropped the populist schtick for the time being (although the 12 week thing was a bit stupid) and is increasingly using experts to get his message across. However you could argue that is because he has such little trust from the general public due to his past behavior, which is not great look for a PM.  Also the fact he has filled his cabinet with mostly populist Brexiteers instead of minsters with gravitas and expertise could well come back to bite him in a national crisis. I am sure the current cabinet could have got Brexit done, not totally convinced about this challenge.

The Cummings stuff in the Times today could be a complete made up story or a worrying indication of who Boris was/is listening to.  It's not the time for freaks and weirdos. Plus I know it is a lot easier in hindsite, but I can't help thinking he has been a bit slow to impose and a bit too trusting of societies ability to listen to advice with the outcome being at times confusion. I think his actions (or lack of) over the next few days will be critical.

As for Labour then they are fading into insignificance at the moment, and unfortunately this is just continuing the trend of the last few years.
		
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For me he’s doing a little too much following opinion and outcry on measures, rather than leading with the measures. He still has my support.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

I hope to god we are not an experiment in what happens when the least trustworthy PM in living memory gets in power during a national crisis.  Please society listen to him.


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I hope to god we are not an experiment in what happens when the least trustworthy PM in living memory gets in power during a national crisis.  Please society listen to him.
		
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I'm hoping he's trying not to come across as the hated dictator who will banish people to their houses, instead taking a softly softly more reasonable approach to coax people off the street.
It's not working though from what I've seen so I'm expecting much a tougher stance over the next week.
Out of interest, is Ireland locked down? I haven't seen it mentioned in the news.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

I believe he’s in a no win situation, he’s doing his best, he’s listening to experts, he’s had his Chancellor has step up massively, but he’ll be judged in this and possibly, UK wise, him alone.

Hopefully he can keep impressing us and keep making the hard decisions when he has to.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Oh Christ, I seem to agree with Piers Morgan now. Shoot me now........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241793993039634432


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oh Christ, I seem to agree with Piers Morgan now. Shoot me now........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241793993039634432

Click to expand...

Strange times indeed. I've recently been finding myself agreeing with SiLH, Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan. Shoot me now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Strange times indeed. I've recently been finding myself agreeing with SiLH, Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan. Shoot me now. 

Click to expand...


Nicola is doing a great job, her direct connect with the Scottish public is superb.
Boris is struggling with his presentation, as Hogan says he is trying to be Mr Nice Guy and not coming out as forceful as he should in a national emergency.....his team are also very impressive.
Interesting to see mainly three women fronting Scotland and three men fronting England.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




Nicola is doing a great job, her direct connect with the Scottish public is superb.
Boris is struggling with his presentation, as Hogan says he is trying to be Mr Nice Guy and not coming out as forceful as he should in a national emergency.....his team are also very impressive.
Interesting to see mainly three women fronting Scotland and three men fronting England.
		
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Oh bloody hell, now I find myself agreeing with Doon. The end of the world is nigh.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




Nicola is doing a great job, her direct connect with the Scottish public is superb.
Boris is struggling with his presentation, as Hogan says he is trying to be Mr Nice Guy and not coming out as forceful as he should in a national emergency.....his team are also very impressive.
*Interesting to see mainly three women fronting Scotland and three men fronting England.*

Click to expand...

It’s only interesting if you believe women are somehow less than men or you’re looking to make a point when one doesn’t exist.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oh Christ, I seem to agree with Piers Morgan now. Shoot me now........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241793993039634432

Click to expand...

Anyone who thinks Morgan is more than a self promoting, loud mouthed journalist and a source of logic and reason needs to lie down in a darkened room for quite some time.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




Nicola is doing a great job, her direct connect with the Scottish public is superb.
Boris is struggling with his presentation, as Hogan says he is trying to be Mr Nice Guy and *not coming out as forceful as he should in a national emergency..*...his team are also very impressive.
Interesting to see mainly *three women fronting Scotland and three men fronting *England.
		
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The PM has given more time to his experts at the daily briefings than he's taken. He has allowed the expertise/science at hand to guide the process while allowing 'adults' the chance to behave responsibly. You know that if draconian measures had been brought in the PM would have been accused of being an over acting buffoon.

Sitting at home without all the facts you it is easy to carp on - I'm sure you could have done better.

You criticise the PM's personality and then making sexist comparisons - is just juvenile: IMO


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

I really really wish that Cummings was off the scene for the time being.  Seeing him in the briefing on Friday made my heart sink a little.

Johnson has all the experts in all fields he needs to make the critical decisions.  I am honestly not sure what Cummings role is or what he can add - but his being in the room just threatens to nibble away at my belief and trust in what Johnson is telling us - a belief and trust that I want to maintain as I *must *believe and trust in him.  And that is not so obvious a position for me to come to.  But I got there quite quickly - and I want to stay there.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Anyone who thinks Morgan is more than a self promoting, loud mouthed journalist and a source of logic and reason needs to lie down in a darkened room for quite some time.
		
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Hmmm.. But, team bluerinse love 💘 him to bits...


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## patricks148 (Mar 23, 2020)

I’m not sure he comes across as partiularly competant in his press converences, lots of “ums” and “er’s” I get the impression he just wings it.



Rishi came across a bit better , not sure any of rest of his cabinet have much credibility, though Raab might be able to pull it off a bit better and appears a bit more proffesional


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s only interesting if you believe women are somehow less than men or you’re looking to make a point when one doesn’t exist.
		
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No, just an observation.
If pushed I would say that the SNP do seem to have more confident talented female politicians than male.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, just an observation.
If pushed I would say that the SNP do seem to have more confident talented female politicians than male.
		
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The SFM seems to be making decisions for Scotland in advance of the PM making them for the UK.  Sturgeon announced this morning that all non-essential shops should close.  I suspect the bill going the the Sccottish Parliament will give her the power to forcibly close all shops that don't comply.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			The PM has given more time to his experts at the daily briefings than he's taken. He has allowed the expertise/science at hand to guide the process while allowing 'adults' the chance to behave responsibly. You know that if draconian measures had been brought in the PM would have been accused of being an over acting buffoon.

Sitting at home without all the facts you it is easy to carp on - I'm sure you could have done better.

You criticise the PM's personality and then making sexist comparisons - is just juvenile: IMO
		
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As the adults do not seem to be behaving in a responsible manner then he is clearly not getting his message across.
I for one think he seems to be 2 days behind what he should really be doing...…..but that is of course just my opinion which, I believe I am allowed to have.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, just an observation.
If pushed I would say that the SNP do seem to have more confident talented female politicians than male.
		
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So pointless and no more than an assumption.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*As the adults do not seem to be behaving in a responsible manner then he is clearly not getting his message across.*
I for one think he seems to be 2 days behind what he should really be doing...…..but that is of course just my opinion which, I believe I am allowed to have.
		
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I'd argue that there are a number of other factors impacting the behaviour of society in addition to just the quality of the message.  Yes at times the message is deliberately vague (anyone see the minister who was put up on Saturday who was given a chance to specifically state that people should not travel on holiday over Easter but he bottled it with some vague ambiguous statement).  But also there are a number of factors that have been brewing for a while, some of the governments own making and some not, that are also impacting how much people listen to them.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 24, 2020)

[*QUOTE="Doon frae Troon, post: 2138371, member: 15632"]As the adults do not seem to be behaving in a responsible manner then he is clearly not getting his message across*.
I for one think he seems to be 2 days behind what he should really be doing...…..but that is of course just my opinion which, I believe I am allowed to have.[/QUOTE]

That is a very unfair and grossly inaccurate statement. In fact, it is something of an oxymoron. If they are behaving irresponsibly, that says, does it not, that his advice was clear.IOW, it was understood,and then  it was rejected, -therein lies the irresponsible reaction. Doing something in ignorance, may be mistaken behaviour, but it isn't irresponsible. *That *requires intent.


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## Mudball (Mar 24, 2020)

As someone on twitter said 'BoJo will emulate his hero Churchill by failing to prevent unnecessary deaths '   (in reference to the Bengal famine)


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2020)

This episode requires dusting off the "man in the arena" speech.


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2020)

I thought he would be happy in ending our Freedom of Movement... what is he complaining about?? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242238644733255680


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## Mudball (Apr 2, 2020)

Did i hear that this week we will get 30 (yup 30) British home grown ventilators.   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245693401477021699While 30 is a good start, did we turn down the option to get thousands .. Little wonder # BorisOut is trending on Twitter at the moment.  

Everytime i like the way we are handling this, the govt goes and shoots its foot.  On the plus side, they cancelled the NHS debt.  Apparently they were going to cancel in Jan, but nicely dressed it up as a Covid rescue


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Did i hear that this week we will get 30 (yup 30) British home grown ventilators.   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245693401477021699While 30 is a good start, did we turn down the option to get thousands .. Little wonder # BorisOut is trending on Twitter at the moment. 

Everytime i like the way we are handling this, the govt goes and shoots its foot.  On the plus side, they cancelled the NHS debt.  Apparently they were going to cancel in Jan, but nicely dressed it up as a Covid rescue
		
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good to see youre still not politicising it


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Did i hear that this week we will get 30 (yup 30) British home grown ventilators.   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245693401477021699While 30 is a good start, did we turn down the option to get thousands .. Little wonder # BorisOut is trending on Twitter at the moment. 

Everytime i like the way we are handling this, the govt goes and shoots its foot.  On the plus side, they cancelled the NHS debt.  Apparently they were going to cancel in Jan, but nicely dressed it up as a Covid rescue
		
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fundy said:



			good to see youre still not politicising it
		
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It's an observation!
What I can't understand is why those who put him there aren't doing their job & holding him to account!! There's a a hell of a lot of dibbers need to get off their ar$e$ & step up to the plate. Sorry if this is a touch 'political' for yer'se.....  just get on with it!!


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

2blue said:



			It's an observation!
What I can't understand is why those who put him there aren't doing their job & holding him to account!! There's a a hell of a lot of dibbers need to get off their ar$e$ & step up to the plate. Sorry if this is a touch 'political' for yer'se.....  just get on with it!! 

Click to expand...


well if you want to politicise, maybe the leader of the Opposition, whoever he or she is should be holding them to account rather than having a drawn out joke of a leader contest? surely thats one of if not their main role! or are we not allowed to criticise the utter shower they continue to be whilst sniping at a brand new pm and government thrown into a situation little could even imagine


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			well if you want to politicise, maybe the leader of the Opposition, whoever he or she is should be holding them to account rather than having a drawn out joke of a leader contest? surely thats one of if not their main role! or are we not allowed to criticise the utter shower they continue to be whilst sniping at a brand new pm and government thrown into a situation little could even imagine
		
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NOW....  you really are politicizing it.....  if he's your's just get on & hold him to account...  time to show some ba££s. Let's look forwards rather than back.. life goes on. Dib, Dib!!


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

2blue said:



			NOW....  you really are politicizing it.....  if he's your's just get on & hold him to account...  time to show some ba££s. Let's look forwards rather than back.. life goes on. Dib, Dib!!
		
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lolol

not mine at all, just wondered if we were having a level playing field or just one sided pot shots at the current government in a situation that anyone would be struggling in!


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			lolol

not mine at all, just wondered if we were having a level playing field or just one sided pot shots at the current government in a situation that anyone would be struggling in!
		
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Wakey, wakey....  gotta look at whats happening & react. No use just siting on your hands whilst everyone else is trying to tidy-up the play field.


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## Mudball (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			good to see youre still not politicising it
		
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I am not 
1) The disbelief in the reaction from the newsreader sums up what i feel about it.  I would be kicking anyone - BoJo or Corbyn if they are trading lifes for lies.   Equally, I cant stop Boris Out from trending either. 
2) I also mentioned the positive around cancellation of NHS Debt.  Apparently it was planned and was brought forward

In earlier posts, i have be glowing about the Chancellor doing his bit.  

In times like these, we need Leaders to step up.  Leadership does not have to come from a position of power.  Equally, those in power need to show some leadership. 
1) 'Leaders' of all other parties have been AWOL.  I am assuming they will turn up on a Jungle or big Brother or a Dance show to improve their ratings
2) BoJo's rating have been going up.  I have been liking how he is handling the situation.  However, what gets me is the spin that goes with it.

Just because BoJo is the best of the worst politicians around ... it does not mean, he cant be scrutinised


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

Just to pick up on the "we'll get 30 British made vents this week." 

Yes its a start... *BUT...*

I can only speak of one company with any real knowledge. In the last few weeks they've delivered a few hundred vents. They've also totally refurbished the vents that were going to be decommissioned, that the new vents were going to replace. They've also commissioned a few hundred anaes machines, all of which have ventilators on them. On top of that they have also commissioned a number of CPAP devices - the next level down from vents. The guys are working 7 day weeks, out before sunrise and in very late. The training teams for that company are all over the UK - I know one training team was in Inverness over the weekend staying in the 'something' mohr hotel - Patrick will know it. No hotel staff bar someone on the front desk. The training all the shifts, i.e. also out early and back in late.

That's just one company. All the companies will be doing the same thing.


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am not
1) The disbelief in the reaction from the newsreader sums up what i feel about it.  I would be kicking anyone - BoJo or Corbyn if they are trading lifes for lies.   Equally, I cant stop Boris Out from trending either.
2) I also mentioned the positive around cancellation of NHS Debt.  Apparently it was planned and was brought forward

In earlier posts, i have be glowing about the Chancellor doing his bit.

In times like these, we need Leaders to step up.  Leadership does not have to come from a position of power.  Equally, those in power need to show some leadership.
1) 'Leaders' of all other parties have been AWOL.  I am assuming they will turn up on a Jungle or big Brother or a Dance show to improve their ratings
2) BoJo's rating have been going up.  I have been liking how he is handling the situation.  However, what gets me is the spin that goes with it.

Just because BoJo is the best of the worst politicians around ... it does not mean, he cant be scrutinised
		
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Hes not even the best of the worst politicians around lol. But still, the focus of your post is on the problems, on an unsubstantiated number (lets not go into BBCs reporting), and to highlight that Bojo out is trending on twitter. What does that actually achieve? Is it not the right time to be scrutinising, or supporting and as a country pulling together and trying to find/recommend solutions?

Hes going to make mistakes, just as every worldwide leader is. Having journalists looking for holes in everything they do and sensationalising everything negative and disillusioned labour fans tweeting #Bojo out is adding what? At least next week theyll be able to shorten the #KeirLisaorRebeccaIn hashtag eh


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## User62651 (Apr 3, 2020)

To be fair to Farage he's far from alone in criticism - the telegraph, mail, nick Ferrari, Andrew Neil and other Tory backers are voicing serious concerns over perceived ineptitude and lack of leadership from govt in terms of both messaging/PR and wrt dreadful progress improving PPE and testing. They don't normally dig at Boris. Boris has arguably got some tactical decisions wrong (eg not accepting EU help for ventilators sourcing as he's likely too aware of how it would make him look weak in his eyes) and that's a selfish decision that will cost lives. Him and his govt needs to stop making the usual big promises that simply cannot be met. It's not a GE or Brexit. Raising people's hopes just to dash them wears thin very quickly. Just front up and tell us how it really is, we can take it. Better honest leadership please and less BS. Brave people are putting their lives on the line after all. The @nickferrariLBC piece yesterday circulating on twitter is hard-hitting but honest. Appreciate Johnson has had a toughish week but he's PM and has to deal with it, seems conspicuous by his absence at present as he told us he would still be running the show before even knowing how CV might affect his health......daft move for an overweight 55yo probably with high blood pressure.

The Govt is winging this......any government would be winging it. Trick is to make people believe you are actually bossing it to inspire. That's crisis leadership.  Honesty is key. They're not bossing it at present.
NYC guy Cuomo is so respected now because he's up front yet strong.
After a decent start 8 or 9 days ago they (UK govt) need to up their game quickly.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			To be fair to Farage he's far from alone in criticism - the telegraph, mail, nick Ferrari, Andrew Neil and other Tory backers are voicing serious concerns over perceived ineptitude and lack of leadership from govt in terms of both messaging/PR and wrt dreadful progress improving PPE and testing. They don't normally dig at Boris. Boris has arguably got some tactical decisions wrong (eg not accepting EU help for ventilators sourcing as he's likely too aware of how it would make him look weak in his eyes) and that's a selfish decision that will cost lives. Him and his govt needs to stop making the usual big promises that simply cannot be met. It's not a GE or Brexit. Raising people's hopes just to dash them wears thin very quickly. Just front up and tell us how it really is, we can take it. Better honest leadership please and less BS. Brave people are putting their lives on the line after all. The @nickferrariLBC piece yesterday circulating on twitter is hard-hitting but honest. Appreciate Johnson has had a toughish week but he's PM and has to deal with it, seems conspicuous by his absence at present as he told us he would still be running the show before even knowing how CV might affect his health......daft move for an overweight 55yo probably with high blood pressure.

The Govt is winging this......any government would be winging it. Trick is to make people believe you are actually bossing it to inspire. That's crisis leadership.  Honesty is key. They're not bossing it at present.
NYC guy Cuomo is so respected now because he's up front yet strong.
*After a decent start 8 or 9 days ago they (UK govt) need to up their game quickly.*

Click to expand...


Just a shame they wasted 3 weeks head start with knowledge  they gained.


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## Mudball (Apr 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			To be fair to Farage he's far from alone in criticism - the telegraph, mail, nick Ferrari, Andrew Neil and other Tory backers are voicing serious concerns over perceived ineptitude and lack of leadership from govt in terms of both messaging/PR and wrt dreadful progress improving PPE and testing. They don't normally dig at Boris. Boris has arguably got some tactical decisions wrong (eg not accepting EU help for ventilators sourcing as he's likely too aware of how it would make him look weak in his eyes) and that's a selfish decision that will cost lives. Him and his govt needs to stop making the usual big promises that simply cannot be met. It's not a GE or Brexit. Raising people's hopes just to dash them wears thin very quickly. Just front up and tell us how it really is, we can take it. Better honest leadership please and less BS. Brave people are putting their lives on the line after all. The @nickferrariLBC piece yesterday circulating on twitter is hard-hitting but honest. Appreciate Johnson has had a toughish week but he's PM and has to deal with it, seems conspicuous by his absence at present as he told us he would still be running the show before even knowing how CV might affect his health......daft move for an overweight 55yo probably with high blood pressure.

The Govt is winging this......any government would be winging it. Trick is to make people believe you are actually bossing it to inspire. That's crisis leadership.  Honesty is key. They're not bossing it at present.
NYC guy Cuomo is so respected now because he's up front yet strong.
After a decent start 8 or 9 days ago they (UK govt) need to up their game quickly.
		
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I agree and could not have written this any better..  This is not about politicising the issue but about getting answers.  As someone who wife is in the NHS and seeing the PPE challenge first hand, we are all scared s*tless.  So dont tell me that i am being an armchair critic.   I looked up the Nick F clip...  brilliant.    Besides the loss of control, everytime they roll out Gove, i throw up - what an absolut <insert appropriate word here>


Nick Ferrari's message to the Prime Minister: Start answering our questions... now - 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245605346191654912


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

FWIW, my opinion is that not a single person on here, or in the wider Society, knows whether the Government is doing a good job or not yet. Anyone who says they are or are not are probably speaking from a biased start point. Only history will tell us the real story, and at that point the legacy of certain people will be cemented (good or bad). 

However, in the meantime, I'll give full support to anyone who is trying their best and making decisions informed by current knowledge. I'll disagree with individual decisions made by some, and I'll feel free to voice that, but I won't say that anyone is doing a good/bad job yet.

Future discussions about this should be interesting though.....


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## User62651 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			FWIW, my opinion is that *not a single person* on here, *or in the wider Society,* *knows whether the Government is doing a good job* or not yet. Anyone who says they are or are not are probably speaking from a biased start point. Only history will tell us the real story, and at that point the legacy of certain people will be cemented (good or bad).

However, in the meantime, I'll give full support to anyone who is trying their best and making decisions informed by current knowledge. I'll disagree with individual decisions made by some, and I'll feel free to voice that, but I won't say that anyone is doing a good/bad job yet.

Future discussions about this should be interesting though.....
		
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Some WILL know.
Some political bias possibly but likely much truth in it too - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...son-nhs-china-uk-cases-outbreak-a9443191.html


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Henry Ford Snr " People who do nothing wrong, do nothing"


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## User62651 (Apr 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Henry Ford Snr " People who do nothing wrong, do nothing"
		
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Might apply to making motorcars in early 20th century, does not apply to thousands of people dying in 2020. Being PM is not being an entrepreneur, you need to be qualified to do the job immediately.


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## Mudball (Apr 19, 2020)

Interesting analysis of why Boris will emerge even more powerful after Corona 

https://www.ft.com/content/0cbd81d8-7d5e-11ea-82f6-150830b3b99a


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Henry Ford Snr " People who do nothing wrong, do nothing"
		
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H'mm. Are you sure that's be HF?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

Congratulations to Boris and his partner Carrie...

A new beginning indeed...


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2020)

The twitterati looking out for a name for the kid..  Currently 'brexit' is a contender.. apparently Brexit Johnson has a good ring to it 

<dont shoot the messenger >


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The twitterati looking out for a name for the kid..  Currently 'brexit' is a contender.. apparently Brexit Johnson has a good ring to it

<dont shoot the messenger >
		
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Borison


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The twitterati looking out for a name for the kid..  Currently 'brexit' is a contender.. apparently Brexit Johnson has a good ring to it

<dont shoot the messenger >
		
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Hugh......  Johnson.    Though here in Yarkshire would be EU Johnson.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

Alasdair or Alistair - just another version of Alexander...though would Johnson want his boy having Scottish associations...

More likely something like Jonny...or some such posh-ish name though not quite as ridiculous antiquated as JR-Ms naming convention


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2020)

Gotta love BBC reporting

"The baby is Ms Symonds' first child, while Mr Johnson *is known to have *fathered five. "   .. WTF, so is the expectations that there are some unknowns? 

Re names... i am assuming it will some random plutocratic name - given that his father is known as 'Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson'


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## rudebhoy (Apr 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Gotta love BBC reporting

"The baby is Ms Symonds' first child, while Mr Johnson *is known to have *fathered five. "   .. WTF, so is the expectations that there are some unknowns?

Re names... i am assuming it will some random plutocratic name - given that his father is known as 'Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson'
		
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*How many other children does Boris Johnson have?*
It is believed that the prime minister has seven children, however he has not officially confirmed the exact number.
What is known is that the prime minister and his second wife, Marina Wheeler, who separated in 2018, have four children together: Lara Lettice, 27, Milo Arthur, 25, Cassia Peaches, 23, and Theodore Apollo, 21.

Mr Johnson also has a fifth child, Stephanie Macintyre, who was fathered as a result of an affair with art consultant Helen Macintyre.
The Appeal Court ruled in 2013 that the public had a right to know that he had fathered a daughter during an adulterous liaison while Mayor of London in 2009.

“The core information in this story, namely that the father had an adulterous affair with the mother, deceiving both his wife and the mother’s partner and that the claimant, born about nine months later, was likely to be the father’s child, was a public interest matter which the electorate was entitled to know when considering his fitness for high public office,” the court said.

*Why is the number of children Mr Johnson has vague?*
During the court proceedings, it was alleged that Stephanie Macintyre was one of two children the prime minister fathered as a result of an affair.

The three appeal court judges said: “It was not material to the judge's conclusion whether contraceptive precautions were taken.

“What was material was that the father's infidelities resulted in the conception of children on two occasions.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...y-carrie-symonds-son-boy-affair-a9489766.html


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



*How many other children does Boris Johnson have?*
It is believed that the prime minister has seven children, however he has not officially confirmed the exact number.
What is known is that the prime minister and his second wife, Marina Wheeler, who separated in 2018, have four children together: Lara Lettice, 27, Milo Arthur, 25, Cassia Peaches, 23, and Theodore Apollo, 21.

Mr Johnson also has a fifth child, Stephanie Macintyre, who was fathered as a result of an affair with art consultant Helen Macintyre.
The Appeal Court ruled in 2013 that the public had a right to know that he had fathered a daughter during an adulterous liaison while Mayor of London in 2009.

“The core information in this story, namely that the father had an adulterous affair with the mother, deceiving both his wife and the mother’s partner and that the claimant, born about nine months later, was likely to be the father’s child, was a public interest matter which the electorate was entitled to know when considering his fitness for high public office,” the court said.

*Why is the number of children Mr Johnson has vague?*
During the court proceedings, it was alleged that Stephanie Macintyre was one of two children the prime minister fathered as a result of an affair.

The three appeal court judges said: “It was not material to the judge's conclusion whether contraceptive precautions were taken.

“What was material was that the father's infidelities resulted in the conception of children on two occasions.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...y-carrie-symonds-son-boy-affair-a9489766.html

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Why is anyone interested in that.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

With the grim news of more and more deaths every day it's good to hear of a new innocent life.   Congratulations.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why is anyone interested in that.
		
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It was a response to Mudball's entirely reasonable question, taken from today's Independent newspaper, so presumably they also think people are interested in it.

People seem to think Johnson is at worst a lovable buffoon, however he really is a nasty piece of work as Eddie Moir famously called him. Cheated on both of his first two wifes - there are 4 affairs which have been made public, not including that mad American pole dancer who he used to take on trade missions. Fired twice for lying (once by the leader of the Conservative Party for telling him reports of an affair were "a pile of inverted piffle", they turned out unsurprisingly to be true).

You can tell a lot about a man by the way he lives his life. Boris has been lying and cheating for the last 25 years, and should be nowhere near No 10.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It was a response to Mudball's entirely reasonable question, taken from today's Independent newspaper, so presumably they also think people are interested in it.

People seem to think Johnson is at worst a lovable buffoon, however he really is a nasty piece of work as Eddie Moir famously called him. Cheated on both of his first two wifes - there are 4 affairs which have been made public, not including that mad American pole dancer who he used to take on trade missions. Fired twice for lying (once by the leader of the Conservative Party for telling him reports of an affair were "a pile of inverted piffle", they turned out unsurprisingly to be true).

You can tell a lot about a man by the way he lives his life. Boris has been lying and cheating for the last 25 years, and should be nowhere near No 10.
		
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In your opinion of course.


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## 2blue (Apr 30, 2020)

Boris, goosed good & proper by Peston's question tonight......   Boris back to soon???


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2020)

A someone who shares a surname with our current PM I am really hoping he does not chose the same first name for his kid. Then again I was in the US a few months ago and I referred to him jokingly as my uncle.  But at least one person in the room believed me.


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## Reemul (Apr 30, 2020)

2blue said:



			Boris, goosed good & proper by Peston's question tonight......   Boris back to soon??? 

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Sorry, I thought Boris, Vallance and Whitty dealt with him in the correct manner, he is a buffon (Peston that is). The idiot from the Times then asks the exact same question again. For people supposedly at the top of their game (Journalists) they are absolutely useless.

They have been poor, we need them to ask the right questions in the right way, not repeat the same thing in a different way over and over. Journalism in the mainstream is poor especially from the main players


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 30, 2020)

Sorry but I find it hard to believe any words that leave Johnson's mouth. 
His jingoistic comments will know doubt hit the right note with cult Boris, but they just worry me, Chumley-Warner springs to mind.
As I said a while ago, I believe history will not judge this government well.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In your opinion of course.
		
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It's a matter of fact that he is a proven liar and a serial adulterer. 

It's my opinion that makes him unsuitable to be our PM.


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2020)

The fact he is shows how much your opinion counts 👍


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			A someone who shares a surname with our current PM I am really hoping he does not chose the same first name for his kid. Then again I was in the US a few months ago and I referred to him jokingly as my uncle.  But at least one person in the room believed me.
		
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Last time i checked, a Khan was not the PM ... unless you think London is  a country on its own


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a matter of fact that he is a proven liar and a serial adulterer.

It's my opinion that makes him unsuitable to be our PM.
		
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Rooney holds the record for goals scored at Man U and England. Obviously he shouldn't have played any games for either after he was known to be a granny chaser...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2020)

For me - not really good enough from our Prime Minster today.  No apologies - nothing done wrong - we all done great - lessons will be learnt but not for now.   Well they better be being learnt in the next month or so about what happened or didn't happen in February.  And where did that 500,000 figure come from?  let me guess - the same play book that has Trump telling how the US would be seeing 2,000,000 deaths were it not for the measures he has taken...

Anyway.  I suppose that we just have to plough on and do our best doing what we are being asked to do, trusting that he and his government are indeed learning lessons they can't tell us about.  Because today I didn't feel much openness, clarity and honesty.  Sorry Boris luvvers.  He might have been _The Man_ for Brexit - but some of us didn't buy the Boris schtick and spin - and I am afraid it remains very hard for me to see past that...as much as I feel that I need to - as frankly the future of us all is in his hands...

Just as well I have much to be grateful for today or I might be feeling very miserable.


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

Maybe I missed some memo somewhere... was a figure of 500,000 referred to at some point. I do know the scientific advisor saying anything under 20k was a good result. Had not heard the 500k till Boris mentioned it


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## Imurg (Apr 30, 2020)

500k was the number if we did nothing and just let it run through unchecked.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me - not really good enough from our Prime Minster today.  No apologies - nothing done wrong - we all done great - lessons will be learnt but not for now.   Well they better be being learnt in the next month or so about what happened or didn't happen in February.  And where did that 500,000 figure come from?  let me guess - the same play book that has Trump telling how the US would be seeing 2,000,000 deaths were it not for the measures he has taken...

Anyway.  I suppose that we just have to plough on and do our best doing what we are being asked to do, trusting that he and his government are indeed learning lessons they can't tell us about.  Because today I didn't feel much openness, clarity and honesty.  Sorry Boris luvvers.  He might have been _The Man_ for Brexit - but some of us didn't buy the Boris schtick and spin - and I am afraid it remains very hard for me to see past that...as much as I feel that I need to - as frankly the future of us all is in his hands...

Just as well I have much to be grateful for today or I might be feeling very miserable.
		
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And in your next post you'll praise him and the govt. You've been doing this flip-flopping for weeks.

BTW, chuffed you got good news today.


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Maybe I missed some memo somewhere... was a figure of 500,000 referred to at some point. I do know the scientific advisor saying anything under 20k was a good result. Had not heard the 500k till Boris mentioned it
		
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From memory  Boris said that the lowest believable number could have been 500,000. In other words there were much higher numbers suggested but that scientists didnt agree that they were near correct


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 30, 2020)

I'm not pleased to say it, but I can immediately identify a jurisdiction where Boris would constitute not only a major improvement in national leadership but possibly an improvement in haircut as well.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			500k was the number if we did nothing and just let it run through unchecked.
		
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Yes, and funny how they can't recall that because Boris referred to it.
He comes back after 5 weeks, and they come back, true to form, sniping and moaning.
Was there anything he said about the way forward that was wrong?
Do you not agree that there should be a cautious, flexible ease out of lockdown as he said he would do, according to the science and the figures..
Why don't you tell us here how *you* would proceed now.?Come on, SILH, spell it out. You think his "performance "wasn't good enough.
Tell us how you would perform!


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2020)

People using cars are up today, I saw loads of people out and about from my window again. Reports of people walking on golf courses and setting fire to them.  Social media awash with people on beaches, London Bridge etc it goes on and on.  Then when the figures are published people are surprised. There are far too many thick idiots and louts in this country. Give them a face mask and they won’t wash their hands, some will use it to mask their identity as they burn another club house down.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2020)

Diamond said:



*People using cars are up today, *I saw loads of people out and about from my window again. Reports of people walking on golf courses and setting fire to them.  Social media awash with people on beaches, London Bridge etc it goes on and on.  Then when the figures are published people are surprised. There are far too many thick idiots and louts in this country. Give them a face mask and they won’t wash their hands, some will use it to mask their identity as they burn another club house down.
		
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Is that necessarily a bad thing? For those people travelling to work, then travelling in their own vehicles must reduce the numbers relying on public transport and therefore help with social distancing. 

I went out in my own car today. I went to the butcher, the fishmonger (walked from the butcher to the fishmonger) and Tesco. Apart from dropping off some shopping to my father in law, who is not going out at all, that is the last time my car will be moving until next Thursday when I do the same again. Knowing how many cars are on the road is a useless statistic unless you know the reason that they are on the road.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a matter of fact that he is a proven liar and a serial adulterer.

It's my opinion that makes him unsuitable to be our PM.
		
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As I said in your opinion but others have their own.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that necessarily a bad thing? For those people travelling to work, then travelling in their own vehicles must reduce the numbers relying on public transport and therefore help with social distancing.

I went out in my own car today. I went to the butcher, the fishmonger (walked from the butcher to the fishmonger) and Tesco. Apart from dropping off some shopping to my father in law, who is not going out at all, that is the last time my car will be moving until next Thursday when I do the same again. Knowing how many cars are on the road is a useless statistic unless you know the reason that they are on the road.
		
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I dont see much of a problem with someone driving their car, when theyre in it they arnt near others, the issue is where are they going, if they are visiting friends or relatives there is a problem, if they are going for a drive to break the monotony or shopping then its fine.


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## 2blue (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a matter of fact that he is a proven liar and a serial adulterer.

It's my opinion that makes him unsuitable to be our PM.
		
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chrisd said:



			The fact he is shows how much your opinion counts 👍
		
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And the fact that he is, shows even more about those who helped put him there.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2020)

2blue said:



			And the fact that he is, shows even more about those who helped put him there. 

Click to expand...

There were only two options. Would you have preferred Corbyn in No. 10? 

I was away working so didn't get the chance to vote in the last election but would've voted Conservative purely to stop a Corbyn led Labour getting in to power. That doesn't necessarily make me a bad person.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			And the fact that he is, shows even more about those who helped put him there. 

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What, the majority of voters!  Its reality, the people that put him there thought he was the better choice, those that are moaning about it need to think why  😄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

On reflection maybe I was a bit harsh on our PM yesterday in my post yesterday - my head was in a funny place...and he is undoubtedly better at the podium stuff than most of his colleagues.


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## Diamond (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that necessarily a bad thing? For those people travelling to work, then travelling in their own vehicles must reduce the numbers relying on public transport and therefore help with social distancing.

I went out in my own car today. I went to the butcher, the fishmonger (walked from the butcher to the fishmonger) and Tesco. Apart from dropping off some shopping to my father in law, who is not going out at all, that is the last time my car will be moving until next Thursday when I do the same again. Knowing how many cars are on the road is a useless statistic unless you know the reason that they are on the road.
		
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I would say yes it is a bad thing if thr scientists for 5 weeks have used it as whether we are complying.
your case is different and sounds like you were making short trips, probably spent more time out of the car than in it.


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## rudebhoy (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Rooney holds the record for goals scored at Man U and England. Obviously he shouldn't have played any games for either after he was known to be a granny chaser...

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Ah yes, because being England centre forward has the same job requirements as being PM, doesn't it?

I do wonder what BJ has to do before some people see through him. It's reminiscent of Trump when he said he could shoot someone in broad daylight, and people would still vote for him.


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## Diamond (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Ah yes, because being England centre forward has the same job requirements as being PM, doesn't it?

I do wonder what BJ has to do before some people see through him. It's reminiscent of Trump when he said he could shoot someone in broad daylight, and people would still vote for him.
		
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Depends who he shot.  If it was one of the scum bag louts burning club houses I would fully understand.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Ah yes, because being England centre forward has the same job requirements as being PM, doesn't it?

I do wonder what BJ has to do before some people see through him. It's reminiscent of Trump when he said he could shoot someone in broad daylight, and people would still vote for him.
		
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I absolutely don’t like the guy, nor am I keen on the current Tory brand. But if you’re too thick to see the comparison I can’t help you.


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## rudebhoy (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I absolutely don’t like the guy, nor am I keen on the current Tory brand. But if you’re too thick to see the comparison I can’t help you.
		
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Nice comment. I'm obviously not as bright as you, but I did understand the comparison you were making, I just thought it was meaningless and glib.


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			And the fact that he is, shows even more about those who helped put him there. 

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Absolutely it does, and the ones that put him there were, bye and large, ex labour voters from your part of the country who were disenchanted with the communist Labour party and decided that the Conservatives were a better proposition 😀😀. Down here in deepest Kent we we always going to vote Conservative as we pretty well always do, it was the Midlands and North who "put him there" 👍👍


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Nice comment. I'm obviously not as bright as you, but I did understand the comparison you were making, I just thought it was meaningless and glib.
		
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Its was 'Comedy Gold' stuff & getting more so all the time..... really is showing a strange side of some folk. 🤔🤔


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but I find it hard to believe any words that leave Johnson's mouth.
His jingoistic comments will know doubt hit the right note with cult Boris, but they just worry me, Chumley-Warner springs to mind.
As I said a while ago, I believe history will not judge this government well.
		
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It could be worse - we might live in Scotland have the Scottish Government 😖😖


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

'We have so far succeeded in the first and most important task we set ourselves as a nation to avoid the tragedy that engulfed other parts of the world'.

Johnsons words yesterday     ..any one know what 'other parts of the world'  means or is it just his normal waffling jingoistic ramblings.


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Aye.....  & it applies to them too. Like dear old Tashey, who thought you could 'explain away' being a Scab 30 odd years ago & perhaps led to his comments that resulted in him being ostrocised from here. It catches up with you all in the end, remember that! 🤓🤓
		
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Mmmmmm, so how do you plan to exact the same revenge on the good folk from the North who finally saw the light ?


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Nice comment. I'm obviously not as bright as you, but I did understand the comparison you were making, I just thought it was meaningless and glib.
		
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Would you send a 70 year old nun to serve on the front line in a war, or would you send the meanest SOB you could find? I don't like Johnson for all the reasons you put up in a previous post but it is his character that has made him a winner. And I think its very sad that any party would choose someone of that character to lead them. Yes he is despicable, and no I wouldn't want him to dinner but if he will kick, bite and scratch the UK out of something that is taking lives I'll take it.

You don't want him because of his character, not whether or not he's the best man, at present, for the job. Your, decent, sensibilities are getting in the way of making a pragmatic decision. In effect, that old British tradition of saying, "I say old boy, that's not cricket." Good for you, and it is what we should all aspire to for the UK but when the fighting's dirty, you need a dirty fighter.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'We have so far succeeded in the first and most important task we set ourselves as a nation to avoid the tragedy that engulfed other parts of the world'.

Johnsons words yesterday     ..any one know what 'other parts of the world'  means or is it just his normal waffling jingoistic ramblings.
		
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I can only guess he meant that we avoided losing a cowardly, lying Leader who's careless actions caused unnecessary worry for his doughting followers.🤪🤪


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Would you send a 70 year old nun to serve on the front line in a war, or would you send the meanest SOB you could find? I don't like Johnson for all the reasons you put up in a previous post but it is his character that has made him a winner. And I think its very sad that any party would choose someone of that character to lead them. Yes he is despicable, and no I wouldn't want him to dinner but if he will kick, bite and scratch the UK out of something that is taking lives I'll take it.

You don't want him because of his character, not whether or not he's the best man, at present, for the job. Your, decent, sensibilities are getting in the way of making a pragmatic decision. In effect, that old British tradition of saying, "I say old boy, that's not cricket." Good for you, and it is what we should all aspire to for the UK but when the fighting's dirty, you need a dirty fighter.
		
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Like NZ??


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Mmmmmm, so how do you plan to exact the same revenge on the good folk from the North who finally saw the light ?
		
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It weren't me it was you Sartherns, I believe!! 🤓


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Would you send a 70 year old nun to serve on the front line in a war, or would you send the meanest SOB you could find? I don't like Johnson for all the reasons you put up in a previous post but it is his character that has made him a winner. And I think its very sad that any party would choose someone of that character to lead them. Yes he is despicable, and no I wouldn't want him to dinner but if he will kick, bite and scratch the UK out of something that is taking lives I'll take it.

You don't want him because of his character, not whether or not he's the best man, at present, for the job. Your, decent, sensibilities are getting in the way of making a pragmatic decision. In effect, that old British tradition of saying, "I say old boy, that's not cricket." Good for you, and it is what we should all aspire to for the UK but when the fighting's dirty, you need a dirty fighter.
		
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I was almost, almost with you there. The minor point we’ll have to agree to disagree on is that I don’t see Boris fighting dirty to get us out of this situation. But I do see him fighting dirty to get “himself” out of a situation that he may be causing.

I agree that we need a Fighter, I would just prefer that they were a Fighter with principles. That’s the person I’d want in the trenches alongside me (and I dislike the war metaphors in this situation as much as I disliked the golf club metaphors in the Brexit thread(s). 😉)


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I was almost, almost with you there. The minor point we’ll have to agree to disagree on is that I don’t see Boris fighting dirty to get us out of this situation. But I do see him fighting dirty to get “himself” out of a situation that he may be causing.

I agree that we need a Fighter, I would just prefer that they were a Fighter with principles. That’s the person I’d want in the trenches alongside me (and I dislike the war metaphors in this situation as much as I disliked the golf club metaphors in the Brexit thread(s). 😉)
		
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EXACTLY.....  are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔


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## Wolf (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			EXACTLY.....  are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔
		
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Considering the alternative was Corbyn and the ludicrous manifesto Labour brought to the table it seems the majority of the country think so 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't vote for either of those options but I'd still rather have what we've got than what the alternative was


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			It weren't me it was you Sartherns, I believe!! 🤓
		
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We'd always seen the light and voted Tory. You cant change facts, Boris got in because you Northerers voted Tory and I'm sure they'll benefit from doing so in the longer term


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## Wolf (May 1, 2020)

chrisd said:



			We'd always seen the light and voted Tory. You cant change facts, Boris got in because you Northerers voted Tory and I'm sure they'll benefit from doing so in the longer term
		
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Except some will refuse to accept anything he or the current government might do well for them, blame it on luck or say it was because the opposition made him... 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Considering the alternative was Corbyn and the ludicrous manifesto Labour brought to the table it seems the majority of the country think so 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't vote for either of those options but I'd still rather have what we've got than what the alternative was
		
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Post #1236 still applies.


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## Wolf (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Post #1236 still applies.
		
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And the fact will always remain he was the better option than what your side offered up. Feel free be bitter about it but it's written there in history for all to see 😉


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And the fact will always remain he was the better option than what your side offered up. Feel free be bitter about it but it's written there in history for all to see 😉
		
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No,he's right Wolf, the fact that the Midlands and North put him in power with a huge majority actually does show that it says more about the people who put him there - but just not in the way HE means it 👍👍


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I was almost, almost with you there. The minor point we’ll have to agree to disagree on is that I don’t see Boris fighting dirty to get us out of this situation. But I do see him fighting dirty to get “himself” out of a situation that he may be causing.

I agree that we need a Fighter, I would just prefer that they were a Fighter with principles. That’s the person I’d want in the trenches alongside me (and I dislike the war metaphors in this situation as much as I disliked the golf club metaphors in the Brexit thread(s). 😉)
		
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I'm almost, almost with you there. The metric for Johnson to get himself out of any mess will be his success as a PM, and that includes this current crisis. In effect, if he wins, we win. 

As for using metaphors, e.g. wars and golf clubs, they weren't used for emotive reasons, just as an example. I'm not into appealing to the Dunkirk spirit, just trying to pick something so diametrically opposed, i.e. a nun at war.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Considering the alternative was *Corbyn and the ludicrous manifesto Labour *brought to the table it seems the majority of the country think so 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't vote for either of those options but I'd still rather have what we've got than what the alternative was
		
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You mean what's been forced to be implemented now by a PM who's clearly is unhappy doing so? Just make sure you hold him to his words & do't go hiding when needed.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Like NZ??
		
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C'mon Dave, you're comparing apples with oranges. You're holding up a country that is the most socially distanced from the rest of the world, that has one of the lowest population densities and one of the easiest to implement a policy of social distancing as the model for getting it right?!? That's a very poor example. 

Now if the purpose of your example is to compare a fabulous PM with at totally untrustworthy worm, I'm with you but not as an example of a complex country fighting Covid.



2blue said:



			EXACTLY.....  are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔
		
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I'd like to think most people wouldn't be happy but its about who can do the job the best, not who they are.


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## IanM (May 1, 2020)

Comparing NZ with the UK?  Ok.  Right.  I see


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			Comparing NZ with the UK?  Ok.  Right.  I see
		
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It could have been dafter - Greenland was his next choice 😁


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			EXACTLY.....  are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔
		
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Oh Dear!  You are very angry and it's no good for you.


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## MegaSteve (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm almost, almost with you there. The metric for Johnson to get himself out of any mess will be his success as a PM, and that includes this current crisis. In effect, if he wins, we win.

As for using metaphors, e.g. wars and golf clubs, they weren't used for emotive reasons, just as an example. I'm not into appealing to the Dunkirk spirit, just trying to pick something so diametrically opposed, i.e. a nun at war.
		
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With so many deaths already it will be difficult/impossible for any kind of "win" to be claimed... The best that can be hoped, is that lessons from hindsight are applied and there is not a 'bounce back', in the numbers, after lockdown is relaxed...


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## IanM (May 1, 2020)

I am on the phone to Mayor of Oban to see if he can help with traffic congestion in Central London after this is all over!


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With so many deaths already it will be difficult/impossible for any kind of "win" to be claimed... The best that can be hoped, is that lessons from hindsight are applied and there is not a 'bounce back', in the numbers, after lockdown is relaxed...
		
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Aren't we just wasting our time here splitting hairs on what version of win we mean? A 2-1 win is still a win but a goal was conceded. It might even have been an own goal. I'm sure everyone can come up with a version of win, and all of us will know what they mean.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			C'mon Dave, you're comparing apples with oranges. You're holding up a country that is the most socially distanced from the rest of the world, that has one of the lowest population densities and one of the easiest to implement a policy of social distancing as the model for getting it right?!? That's a very poor example.
		
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Yes 7 sheep per person though it used to be 10. 
However it has the same % of Its population living in urban areas as the UK.

BUT......  of course it's the comparison of leaders!!



			Now if the purpose of your example is to compare a fabulous PM with at totally untrustworthy worm, I'm with you but not as an example of a complex country fighting Covid.
		
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Far preferable to have a leader of the Left that understands the needs of the most vulnerable than the 'untrustworthy worm' we've been lumbered with. Not a fan, but I bet Abbott would have identified those issues far earlier.  & before the knobs jump in....  it's now't to do with numbers. 
Also..... just asking for a friend...... what did S Bank AFC ever win?


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## IanM (May 1, 2020)

No wins to be had here.  Folk have died. Jobs and businesses have been decimated.  

No value in any party politics here.  The only losers will be those folk who chose to try and play it.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			I am on the phone to Mayor of Oban to see if he can help with traffic congestion in Central London after this is all over!
		
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So did he say it's about understanding the needs of your community & not forgetting those most vulnerable as well as advising the folly of continuing to allow building work to continue in the city center.....  all pretty obvious really.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			No wins to be had here.  Folk have died. Jobs and businesses have been decimated.

No value in any party politics here.  The only losers will be those folk who chose to try and play it.
		
Click to expand...

So party politics and political ideology has not played any part in any governments responses and how many people have died and businesses decimated globally as part of that response?  If not then what has made a difference, levels of empathy of the leaders, competence of the leaders, luck as it's all random?


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			No wins to be had here.  Folk have died. Jobs and businesses have been decimated.

No value in any party politics here.  The only losers will be those folk who chose to try and play it.
		
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Yep....  all about sympathy & understanding whatever their politics!! & we've seen where that's taken us so far. 
EDIT.... yeah, well said HK...... 'empathy'.......   massively lacking so far...... on here & there!!


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I was almost, almost with you there. The minor point we’ll have to agree to disagree on is that I don’t see Boris fighting dirty to get us out of this situation. But I do see him fighting dirty to get “himself” out of a situation that he may be causing.

I agree that we need a Fighter, I would just prefer that they were a Fighter with principles. That’s the person I’d want in the trenches alongside me (and I dislike the war metaphors in this situation as much as I disliked the golf club metaphors in the Brexit thread(s). 😉)
		
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I dont know, war analogies can be quite effective in these times. We can consider people from all backgrounds coming together to rid our shores of a dangerous foe that is determed to ruin our lives and and destroy our ecconomy. Well enough about Corbyn for now 😉


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:
EXACTLY..... are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔



Dibber said:
Oh Dear! You are very angry and it's no good for you.
		
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I see the truth is hurting you a lot!!


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So party politics and political ideology has not played any part in any governments responses and how many people have died and businesses decimated globally as part of that response?  If not then what has made a difference, levels of empathy of the leaders, competence of the leaders, luck as it's all random?
		
Click to expand...

How would you prefer them to have played it?  Was there an alternative to social distancing, stay at home, shutting down places where people gather, stopping the NHS from being overrun and having to decide who they help and who they leave.  Looking over our shoulders is a pastime for less trying times.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Dobber said:
I see the truth is hurting you a lot!! 

Click to expand...

Yes, that's right. I know there are so many angry people around. Take care though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And in your next post you'll praise him and the govt. You've been doing this flip-flopping for weeks.

BTW, chuffed you got good news today.
		
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You are right - I do flip-flop.  I flip-flop all the time between not really trusting him and expressing my feelings accordingly - and knowing that I _have _to trust him and so can be accepting and understanding with him on his dealing with this hellishly difficult predicament.  And I suspect for me that is how it forever be.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm almost, almost with you there. The metric for Johnson to get himself out of any mess will be his success as a PM, and that includes this current crisis. In effect, if he wins, we win.
		
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Whilst I do agree, I just think that in the modern political landscape, where hyper-partisanship is much more common than it used to be, measuring success is almost impossible. There are more than enough people who will back Boris (and the Conservatives) whatever they do. To paraphrase DT. Boris could shoot an old lady in the street, and the supporters will claim that it was a heroic act!

And yes, before anyone says it, this works both ways. I grew up (and still live) in a Labour heartland. My family have always voted Labour. I've predominantly voted Labour (I've voted Lib Dem once and have protest voted Green in EU elections). I'll never vote Conservative. I don't believe their economic policies work for me and mine. However, if a Labour leader did something I thought showed a complete lack of character and or principle, then I'd want them to apologise at the very least.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			EXACTLY.....  are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge?🤔
		
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Whether we are happy or not - he is the PM we have and will most probably have for some years to come (unless he decides to hang up his PM boots once this has all calmed down a bit to spend more time with his Mrs and nipper)


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yep....  all about sympathy & understanding whatever their politics!! & we've seen where that's taken us so far. 
EDIT.... yeah, well said HK...... 'empathy'.......   massively lacking so far...... on here & there!!
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

I’ve got no issues with boris or the Government in how they are handling this crisis, I’ve said before I don’t believe any Party could of done better.

Hopefully any lessons learnt along the way will be identified and be in place if, god forbid, this happens again or rectified straight away if need be.

The bit that does make me angry is when those defending boris say “it could be worse it could be Corbyn in charge” that’s a pathetic argument at these times, its peoples lives you’re talking about.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether we are happy or not - he is the PM we have and will most probably have for some years to come (unless he decides to hang up his PM boots once this has all calmed down a bit to spend more time with his Mrs and nipper)
		
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CORRECT........ but lets never forget what we're lumbered with & how much he needs watching & holding to account.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I do agree, I just think that in the modern political landscape, where hyper-partisanship is much more common than it used to be, measuring success is almost impossible. There are more than enough people who will back Boris (and the Conservatives) whatever they do. To paraphrase DT. Boris could shoot an old lady in the street, and the supporters will claim that it was a heroic act!

And yes, before anyone says it, this works both ways. I grew up (and still live) in a Labour heartland. My family have always voted Labour. I've predominantly voted Labour (I've voted Lib Dem once and have protest voted Green in EU elections). I'll never vote Conservative. I don't believe their economic policies work for me and mine. However, if a Labour leader did something I thought showed a complete lack of character and or principle, then I'd want them to apologise at the very least.
		
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Definitely a discussion worth having over a beer, just a shame distance and lockdown are in the way. Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, what do you mean by hyper-partisanship and why is it more common? 

I think the expression of a person's politics is more prevalent, courtesy of the various social media platforms. And the use of those platforms by the various parties to access the electorate is more prevalent. The next bit is going to sound awful, but that's through clumsiness rather than arrogance. Some of the sound bite stuff put out by the various parties lacks... refinement and intelligence because its aimed at a section of society that might struggle with some complex issues - let's be honest, what you put in front of the blue rinse brigade won't work at the other end of the social spectrum.

But on the partisanship; what happened to Labour's red wall at the last election? The days of a vote blindly going in one direction or another are gone, almost. But your comment, "I'll never vote Conservative..." Wouldn't a more intelligent comment be I'd never vote Conservative whilst their policies are x, y, z? What happens if the Tories change? You still wouldn't vote for them - that's I'll bite my nose off to spite my face thing.

I've voted all 3 major parties in England, depending on manifesto and what I thought the country needed at that time. And I didn't vote at the last election because I found all the parties lacked the right policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

If I can just give one little example of where I am conflicted with our PM and the government - and i mention this as I was picked up on it when I posted yesterday when 'not right in the head' 

I mentioned that he raised the _'if we hadn't done what we did we could have been facing 500,000 dead_'.  Now this might well be true and I accept it probably *was *mentioned back when the measures were being introduced - and so I *am *grateful that the government has enabled the country, through the various personal and business financing schemes, to practice the social distancing and other measures we have adhered to over the last 5 weeks.  That's a very strong up-side of what the government has done for us.

However I simply do not recall any minister in any briefing bringing up that the 500,000 since, and in Johnson's absence.  I admit that I can have selective memory with government minister briefings - especially when some are at the podium saying very little - but I just don't recall hearing it said.  Until yesterday.  And I am afraid that my instant thought (as instinctively I do not trust him) was that this is exactly what Trump is doing to big *himself* up in the eyes of the US electorate when telling them that without his measures US could be seeing 2,000,000 deaths by now.  If they had done absolutely nothing - in the face of a viral pandemic.

And then along with the 500,000 figure Johnson paints a visual picture of a great mountain that we have put a tunnel through by doing what we've done.  In fact as we all know that's not a very good analogy - but it does paint an impressive picture if you didn't quite appreciate it was the _wrong _picture.  And my suspicious mind asks me 'Why is he doing this when his colleagues haven't been; is it because talking of this number and the imaginary are intended to make the current grim total of deaths with Covid-17 seem not so bad'?

And therein lies my conflict.  The government seem to have managed some aspects well - but I am not sure I am totally trusting Johnson on the completeness of what he is saying.

In truth the only thing that really matters to me at this moment is that the government _itself _knows why we have the number we have - and what they could have done at the outset that might have helped reduce that number - and learn the lessons.  So that whatever these lessons are, they build them into their planning for managing any further outbreaks following the relaxation that must come.  I feel that they must be completely open and straight in telling us what that planning will require us to do - whenever and wherever a further outbreak might happen.  Hopefully they will be.  Actually I am pretty sure they will be.


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

Reading today's posts and the (IMO) somewhat petty squabbling from some usually measured members its pretty clear 'Cabin Fever' is kicking in.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I do agree, I just think that in the modern political landscape, where hyper-partisanship is much more common than it used to be, measuring success is almost impossible. There are more than enough people who will back Boris (and the Conservatives) whatever they do. To paraphrase DT. Boris could shoot an old lady in the street, and the supporters will claim that it was a heroic act!

And yes, before anyone says it, this works both ways. *I grew up (and still live) in a Labour heartland*. My family have always voted Labour. I've predominantly voted Labour (I've voted Lib Dem once and have protest voted Green in EU elections). I'll never vote Conservative. I don't believe their economic policies work for me and mine. However, if a Labour leader did something I thought showed a complete lack of character and or principle, then I'd want them to apologise at the very least.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I know, grew up there too.  But I've seen Labour then, and I've seen it now. Which means I am not a one party man. As for party leaders shooting old ladies in the street, I sense a little hyperbole there😁


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I can just give one little example of where I am conflicted with our PM and the government - and i mention this as I was picked up on it when I posted yesterday when 'not right in the head' 

I mentioned that he raised the _'if we hadn't done what we did we could have been facing 500,000 dead_'.  Now this might well be true and I accept it probably *was *mentioned back when the measures were being introduced - and so I *am *grateful that the government has enabled the country, through the various personal and business financing schemes, to practice the social distancing and other measures we have adhered to over the last 5 weeks.  That's a very strong up-side of what the government has done for us.

However I simply do not recall any minister in any briefing bringing up that the 500,000 since, and in Johnson's absence.  I admit that I can have selective memory with government minister briefings - especially when some are at the podium saying very little - but I just don't recall hearing it said.  Until yesterday.  And I am afraid that my instant thought (as instinctively I do not trust him) was that this is exactly what Trump is doing to big *himself* up in the eyes of the US electorate when telling them that without his measures US could be seeing 2,000,000 deaths by now.  If they had done absolutely nothing - in the face of a viral pandemic.

And then along with the 500,000 figure Johnson paints a visual picture of a great mountain that we have put a tunnel through by doing what we've done.  In fact as we all know that's not a very good analogy - but it does paint an impressive picture if you didn't quite appreciate it was the _wrong _picture.  And my suspicious mind asks me 'Why is he doing this when his colleagues haven't been; is it because talking of this number and the imaginary are intended to make the current grim total of deaths with Covid-17 seem not so bad'?

And therein lies my conflict.  The government seem to have managed some aspects well - but I am not sure I am totally trusting Johnson on the completeness of what he is saying.

In truth the only thing that really matters to me at this moment is that the government _itself _knows why we have the number we have - and what they could have done at the outset that might have helped reduce that number - and learn the lessons.  So that whatever these lessons are, they build them into their planning for managing any further outbreaks following the relaxation that must come.  I feel that they must be completely open and straight in telling us what that planning will require us to do - whenever and wherever a further outbreak might happen.  Hopefully they will be.
		
Click to expand...

I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Definitely a discussion worth having over a beer, just a shame distance and lockdown are in the way. Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, what do you mean by hyper-partisanship and why is it more common?

I think the expression of a person's politics is more prevalent, courtesy of the various social media platforms. And the use of those platforms by the various parties to access the electorate is more prevalent. The next bit is going to sound awful, but that's through clumsiness rather than arrogance. Some of the sound bite stuff put out by the various parties lacks... refinement and intelligence because its aimed at a section of society that might struggle with some complex issues - let's be honest, what you put in front of the blue rinse brigade won't work at the other end of the social spectrum.

But on the partisanship; what happened to Labour's red wall at the last election? The days of a vote blindly going in one direction or another are gone, almost. But your comment, "I'll never vote Conservative..." Wouldn't a more intelligent comment be I'd never vote Conservative whilst their policies are x, y, z? What happens if the Tories change? You still wouldn't vote for them - that's I'll bite my nose off to spite my face thing.

I've voted all 3 major parties in England, depending on manifesto and what I thought the country needed at that time. And I didn't vote at the last election because I found all the parties lacked the right policies.
		
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Ok, with regards to Hyper-Partisan. Meaning that people are now much more willing to overlook almost anything in their support of a person or Party. As best evidenced by our friends over the Atlantic.

The middle ground of easily "sway-able" voters is shrinking rapidly. There can be very little doubt that the reason for the swing to the Conservatives at the last Election was in no small part due to the Brexit shaped elephant in the room. Labour's policy was too difficult to understand for a certain demographic. It was too easily dismissed by the modern type of soundbite politics. A large section of the population switched off once the Brexit issue was turned into a Yes/No choice (even though Labour's policy wasn't actually a No - It was just framed that way by the Conservatives and the Conservative led media).

With regards to my "I'll never vote Conservative" comment. How about "I'll never vote Conservative whilst they follow the standard Conservative economic models". Which is ironic currently, as they're now the proud holders of "The most Socialist Economic Policies of a U.K. Government.. Ever" award. Bearing in mind that there is somewhere between zero and eff-all chance of the Conservatives dropping their Economic models, I think I'm fairly safe in saying that I'll never vote Conservative. Even if they make me better of financially (and they frequently do)...
Edit. I’d love the opportunity to discuss over a cerveza or 2. Preferably at your club rather than mine though 👍😉😂


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, I know, grew up there too.  But I've seen Labour then, and I've seen it now. Which means I am not a one party man. As for party leaders shooting old ladies in the street, I sense a little hyperbole there😁
		
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The hyperbole was intentional as it was supposed to highlight just how much certain politicians can get away with these days! 

We all remember the Gordon Brown incident? Accidentally recorded calling a "lovely" little old lady a Bigot. Forced to go back and apologise! That simply wouldn't happen now. Boris has very rarely had to apologise for some of the terrible things he's said or done. He's not held to account at all. And that's dangerous in Politics.

Oh, and she was an old bigot as well.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve got no issues with boris or the Government in how they are handling this crisis, I’ve said before I don’t believe any Party could of done better.

Hopefully any lessons learnt along the way will be identified and be in place if, god forbid, this happens again or rectified straight away if need be.

The bit that does make me angry is when those defending boris say “it could be worse it could be Corbyn in charge” that’s a pathetic argument at these times, its peoples lives you’re talking about.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Whilst I would consider Corbyn most unsuitable as a " normal times"
PM,  I am sure that most fair minded UK citizens would take off their Party hats and, recognising the perilous situation we are in, agree that he and his team would try their best to defeat covid and protect the country as best they could. Which is where the analogy of wartime is valid.
And as most people are doing now.


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## IanM (May 1, 2020)

I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!"      Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks. 

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!"      Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks.

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change! 

Click to expand...

Plenty of examples of tory MP’s chucking rocks, and I’d find it incredibly sad if any MP from any party was sat sniggering behind closed doors, personally I’d like to believe they’d want to be involved to help the Country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.
		
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That may be true (though why give comparisons against other countries when comparison of numbers of deaths is we are told misleading) but I don't have any comparisons to make other than with the US.  And indeed our government measures up splendidly against what Trump says - and probably pretty well against such as Governor Cuomo of NY State - who seems to be extremely open.

The issue simply arises when ministers are not able to answer quite simple little questions - so for instance two asked of the Robert Jenrick on the Today programme this morning relating to contact tracing.  How many people have been recruited? and, We knew we'd have to do contact tracing so why didn't you start recruiting before 23rd April?  On the first question the answer was a kind of 'don't know' - and he probably should have - the second he just did not really answer at all other than saying we have been doing contact tracing for some time - which wasn't really what he was asked.  

Anyway he's not Johnson and maybe Johnson would have answered it differently.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!"      Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks.

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change! 

Click to expand...

A very, very poor, thoughtless  post is this 


pauldj42 said:



*Plenty of examples of tory MP’s chucking rocks*, and I’d find it incredibly sad if any MP from any party was sat sniggering behind closed doors, personally I’d like to believe they’d want to be involved to help the Country.
		
Click to expand...

Plus the Newspapers that support them. 
Also, the idea that MP's wouldn't want to address the very issues of supporting those in our society that are disadvantaged & vulnerable is an unbelievable suggestion, given it's what they stood for very recently.
It's becoming obvious that some are struggling to handle the 'Cabin-fever' so maybe time to go a little more gentle with them.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.
		
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I disagree, you only have to look at the recording of care home deaths in England.
Why were the UK government so slow to start recording them.
Johnston's 'avoid the tragedy of other nations' comment yesterday shows someone prepared to cheat and lie at the drop of a hat.

[OT] Scots 'journalists' seem to be running a sweep as to see which one of them can ask the First Minister the most stupid question.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



*I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. *They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.
		
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Not really, many governments have been praised for being honest and upfront with the nation. Indeed some have been praised for being rather more upfront about the consequences and measures needed at the start of the crisis than our PM originally was. Of course we're not as bad as the US or Brazil if that's the comparison pool, but then again who is.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			Comparing NZ with the UK?  Ok.  Right.  I see
		
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chrisd said:



			It could have been dafter - Greenland was his next choice 😁
		
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Whoooosh......   you missed it yet again 
NZ, Greenland, Iceland......  or Spain & Italy that we've been watching! Size & shape etc doesn't matter....  it's the decisions you make based on the importance you attach to those choices. And, a caring NZ made the better choices. I trust you're getting it now as I can't make it any clearer!!


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, with regards to Hyper-Partisan. Meaning that people are now much more willing to overlook almost anything in their support of a person or Party. As best evidenced by our friends over the Atlantic.

The middle ground of easily "sway-able" voters is shrinking rapidly. There can be very little doubt that the reason for the swing to the Conservatives at the last Election was in no small part due to the Brexit shaped elephant in the room. Labour's policy was too difficult to understand for a certain demographic. It was too easily dismissed by the modern type of soundbite politics. A large section of the population switched off once the Brexit issue was turned into a Yes/No choice (even though Labour's policy wasn't actually a No - It was just framed that way by the Conservatives and the Conservative led media).

With regards to my "I'll never vote Conservative" comment. How about "I'll never vote Conservative whilst they follow the standard Conservative economic models". Which is ironic currently, as they're now the proud holders of "The most Socialist Economic Policies of a U.K. Government.. Ever" award. Bearing in mind that there is somewhere between zero and eff-all chance of the Conservatives dropping their Economic models, I think I'm fairly safe in saying that I'll never vote Conservative. Even if they make me better of financially (and they frequently do)...
Edit. I’d love the opportunity to discuss over a cerveza or 2. Preferably at your club rather than mine though 👍😉😂
		
Click to expand...

I know we’re straying well away from the point but I do question one point you made, that of the Conservatives having the most socio-economic policies of a U.K. govt ever. As much as it’s difficult for everyone to see past Iraq, have a look at what Blair’s govts achieved. Until the god complex/GW’s puppy phase set in, wow what a record of socialist achievements. What a fab PM in the early days.

And if you do ever get here, there’ll be more than 2 cervezas.


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## IanM (May 1, 2020)

2blue said:



			Whoooosh......   you missed it yet again 
NZ, Greenland, Iceland......  or Spain & Italy that we've been watching! Size & shape etc doesn't matter....  it's the decisions you make based on the importance you attach to those choices. And, a caring NZ made the better choices. I trust you're getting it now as I can't make it any clearer!! 

Click to expand...

So a whoosh from a bloke demonstrating that he has missed the point?   I wonder if I should try to explain (again)   - maybe not.  Not worth falling out over.   (Please see the Oban joke as a cue)


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I can just give one little example of where I am conflicted with our PM and the government - and i mention this as I was picked up on it when I posted yesterday when 'not right in the head' 

I mentioned that he raised the _'if we hadn't done what we did we could have been facing 500,000 dead_'.  Now this might well be true and I accept it probably *was *mentioned back when the measures were being introduced - and so I *am *grateful that the government has enabled the country, through the various personal and business financing schemes, to practice the social distancing and other measures we have adhered to over the last 5 weeks.  That's a very strong up-side of what the government has done for us.

However I simply do not recall any minister in any briefing bringing up that the 500,000 since, and in Johnson's absence.  I admit that I can have selective memory with government minister briefings - especially when some are at the podium saying very little - but I just don't recall hearing it said.  Until yesterday.  And I am afraid that my instant thought (as instinctively I do not trust him) was that this is exactly what Trump is doing to big *himself* up in the eyes of the US electorate when telling them that without his measures US could be seeing 2,000,000 deaths by now.  If they had done absolutely nothing - in the face of a viral pandemic.

And then along with the 500,000 figure Johnson paints a visual picture of a great mountain that we have put a tunnel through by doing what we've done.  In fact as we all know that's not a very good analogy - but it does paint an impressive picture if you didn't quite appreciate it was the _wrong _picture.  And my suspicious mind asks me 'Why is he doing this when his colleagues haven't been; is it because talking of this number and the imaginary are intended to make the current grim total of deaths with Covid-17 seem not so bad'?

And therein lies my conflict.  The government seem to have managed some aspects well - but I am not sure I am totally trusting Johnson on the completeness of what he is saying.

In truth the only thing that really matters to me at this moment is that the government _itself _knows why we have the number we have - and what they could have done at the outset that might have helped reduce that number - and learn the lessons.  So that whatever these lessons are, they build them into their planning for managing any further outbreaks following the relaxation that must come.  I feel that they must be completely open and straight in telling us what that planning will require us to do - whenever and wherever a further outbreak might happen.  Hopefully they will be.  Actually I am pretty sure they will be.
		
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I think you’re onto something there H. Johnson has a lot of PR waffle in some of what he says. It’s cuddly and warming, and perhaps there to paint pictire’s for the hard of hearing. Raab and Hancock have tried to stick to the brief, inc hard facts.

Does that make Johnson a liar or a fairground hustler? You take your choice but as a comparison, ”we will fight them on the beaches” is lauded. Churchill was unceremoniously dumped after the war. Who knows, once the real cost in terms of lives and economics is faced...


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know we’re straying well away from the point but I do question one point you made, that of the Conservatives having the most socio-economic policies of a U.K. govt ever. As much as it’s difficult for everyone to see past Iraq, have a look at what Blair’s govts achieved. Until the god complex/GW’s puppy phase set in, wow what a record of socialist achievements. What a fab PM in the early days.

And if you do ever get here, there’ll be more than 2 cervezas.
		
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Agreed. I was (and probably still am) more of a Blairite than most. The comment was a little tongue in cheek I suppose 😂😂😂


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may be true (though why give comparisons against other countries when comparison of numbers of deaths is we are told misleading) but I don't have any comparisons to make other than with the US.  And indeed our government measures up splendidly against what Trump says - and probably pretty well against such as Governor Cuomo of NY State - who seems to be extremely open.

The issue simply arises when ministers are not able to answer quite simple little questions - so for instance two asked of the Robert Jenrick on the Today programme this morning relating to contact tracing.  How many people have been recruited? and, We knew we'd have to do contact tracing so why didn't you start recruiting before 23rd April?  On the first question the answer was a kind of 'don't know' - and he probably should have - the second he just did not really answer at all other than saying we have been doing contact tracing for some time - which wasn't really what he was asked.

Anyway he's not Johnson and maybe Johnson would have answered it differently.
		
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Perhaps I have not understood this contact tracing , and if I haven't ,no doubt someone will enlighten us ( I don't think I would be alone), but until this app which is imminent, I fail to see how contact tracing could be effective  if attempted earlier.
Going back earlier in April, IIRC, testing was done on hospital patients only, and frontline staff? Not on general public, even those with symptoms( they were asked to isolate and only contact 111 or doc if they deteriorated )
So, certainly no practical way to test them? If anyone is saying it should have been done, calling on all households where someone reports suspected covid ( how many false panic calls would there be to ask for testing),please tell me how the positive testee could effectively tell you who he had been close to in the previous week, and even if they could, how could the government logistically trace those people, effectively. It would need an "army "
Maybe some effort could have been made re tracing those who positive frontline staff had been close to, but even then, with all that was elsewhere being cranked up to fight this virus,  it would have been ineffective.
Plus, testing all these people on a Tuesday when negative , doesn't mean they stay negative . Some may be positive by Friday.

If what I am saying sounds defeatist, then look back at how many people you got near to , in a week. On the way to work, or shopping etc.

Now, however, it's a different story once this app gets taken up. Tracing can be done effectively and immediately without massive , massive workforce or logistics. It will now be worth doing.

As I say, I'm open to correction about mass testing early on in this crisis, so over to you


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Perhaps I have not understood this contact tracing , and if I haven't ,no doubt someone will enlighten us ( I don't think I would be alone), but until this app which is imminent, I fail to see how contact tracing could be effective  if attempted earlier.
Going back earlier in April, IIRC, testing was done on hospital patients only, and frontline staff? Not on general public, even those with symptoms( they were asked to isolate and only contact 111 or doc if they deteriorated )
So, certainly no practical way to test them? If anyone is saying it should have been done, calling on all households where someone reports suspected covid ( how many false panic calls would there be to ask for testing),please tell me how the positive testee could effectively tell you who he had been close to in the previous week, and even if they could, how could the government logistically trace those people, effectively. It would need an "army "
Maybe some effort could have been made re tracing those who positive frontline staff had been close to, but even then, with all that was elsewhere being cranked up to fight this virus,  it would have been ineffective.
Plus, testing all these people on a Tuesday when negative , doesn't mean they stay negative .

If what I am saying sounds defeatist, then look back at how many people you got near to , in a week. On the way to work, or shopping etc.

Now, however, it's a different story once this app gets taken up. Tracing can be done effectively and immediately without massive , massive workforce or logistics. It will now be worth doing.

As I say, I'm open to correction about mass testing early on in this crisis, so over to you
		
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Yup, in an open society like the UK of 66mill it would simply have been impossible. Hence, now the virus is within the population the current fear that if the infecttion rate goes back to, even slightly greater than 1:1 it would cause major and servere loss-of-life problems


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			So a whoosh from a bloke demonstrating that he has missed the point?   I wonder if I should try to explain (again)   - maybe not.  Not worth falling out over.   (Please see the Oban joke as a cue)
		
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Leave him Ian - he lives in his own little world!


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Leave him Ian - he lives in his own little world!
		
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He's too busy putting wood on the bonfires he keeps burning.


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He's too busy putting wood on the bonfires he keeps burning.
		
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Well Brian - he wont get any coal from Tashy anymore 🤔🤔


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Perhaps I have not understood this contact tracing , and if I haven't ,no doubt someone will enlighten us ( I don't think I would be alone), but until this app which is imminent, I fail to see how contact tracing could be effective  if attempted earlier.
Going back earlier in April, IIRC, testing was done on hospital patients only, and frontline staff? Not on general public, even those with symptoms( they were asked to isolate and only contact 111 or doc if they deteriorated )
So, certainly no practical way to test them? If anyone is saying it should have been done, calling on all households where someone reports suspected covid ( how many false panic calls would there be to ask for testing),please tell me how the positive testee could effectively tell you who he had been close to in the previous week, and even if they could, how could the government logistically trace those people, effectively. It would need an "army "
Maybe some effort could have been made re tracing those who positive frontline staff had been close to, but even then, with all that was elsewhere being cranked up to fight this virus,  it would have been ineffective.
Plus, testing all these people on a Tuesday when negative , doesn't mean they stay negative .

If what I am saying sounds defeatist, then look back at how many people you got near to , in a week. On the way to work, or shopping etc.

Now, however, it's a different story once this app gets taken up. Tracing can be done effectively and immediately without massive , massive workforce or logistics. It will now be worth doing.

As I say, I'm open to correction about mass testing early on in this crisis, so over to you
		
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drdel said:



			Yup, in an open society like the UK of 66mill it would simply have been impossible. Hence, now the virus is within the population the current fear that if the infecttion rate goes back to, even slightly greater than 1:1 it would cause major and servere loss-of-life problems
		
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Seemed to work well up to yet in South Korea, who started it early along side testing, with a population of 50 odd million in a very densely populated country.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Well Brian - he wont get any coal from Tashy anymore 🤔🤔
		
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And all the slag heaps near him have gone. Now nature reserves I suspect.
Don't envy the kids today. I was able to play on them.
Slag heaps were more fun to a kid than a nature reserve😀


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## 2blue (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He's too busy putting wood on the bonfires he keeps burning.
		
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Hobbit said:



			He's too busy putting wood on the bonfires he keeps burning.
		
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Hello, who's that??


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seemed to work well up to yet in South Korea who started it early along side testing with a population of 50 odd million in a very densely populated country.
		
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South Korea used very aggressive contact tracing with a successful use of an app but even used bank and spending info via cards.

Judging by some comments on the thread about "Would you use the app", there could be so me strong opposition


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seemed to work well up to yet in South Korea who started it early along side testing with a population of 50 odd million in a very densely populated country.
		
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Yes, I have to say that S Korea and England/Wales are similar- size and population. It genuinely puzzles me exactly how they did the testing.
Who did they test soon as covid started and how. Was repeated testing done and on whom, etc etc.
What was required of positive testees, or those who thought they had it etc.
Does anyone know where there is an explanation of how they achieved this?


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, I have to say that S Korea and England/Wales are similar- size and population. It genuinely puzzles me exactly how they did the testing.
Who did they test soon as covid started and how. Was repeated testing done and on whom, etc etc.
What was required of positive testees, or those who thought they had it etc.
Does anyone know where there is an explanation of how they achieved this?
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52482553


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup, in an open society like the UK of 66mill it would simply have been impossible. Hence, now the virus is within the population the current fear that if the infecttion rate goes back to, even slightly greater than 1:1 it would cause major and servere loss-of-life problems
		
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which is why the government plans to hire 18,000 contact tracers.  Now we have known for as long as that we needed them - and so we could have initiated the hiring of them well before 23rd April - the date I understand the hiring was kicked-off.  I could be generous and suggest that there is no point in hiring unless we know when the app will be done and out in the population as they'd have nothing to do.  But they could still have been identified and engaged with start date tbc.  I am sure there would be plenty ready to be trained up in readiness.

How will it work?  I'm guessing a bit here.  I have the app downloaded onto my phone (does it have to be an iPhone?) with Bluetooth switched on.  When I get within infection passing range (2m calculated using GPS?) of someone else with the app the ID of his phone/app is logged against mine - and mine against his - and that info will all be synch'd by the app to the cloud database for both of us.  If I contract the virus three contact tracers will be allocated to me.  The database will tell the contact tracers the IDs of the phones and hence the individuals that I've been close to in the previous 2weeks or so.  The tracers then follow-up with contacting all of those individuals to tell them they have been in infectious range of someone who has the virus within the previous 2 weeks.  These individuals are contacted by the tracers and told to isolate, and then _their _proximity contacts are then followed up.  And so it goes on.

I'm thinking that if my proximity contact record shows a lot of contacts in my home 'first part' postcode area, the app could send out an immediate lockdown order to all living in the that postcode. And it could also post a warning via the app that my postcode is in Lockdown and so not to be visited unless essential.

Well that's how I'd make it work.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			South Korea used very aggressive contact tracing with a successful use of an app but even used bank and spending info via cards.

*Judging by some comments on the thread about "Would you use the app", there could be so me strong opposition*

Click to expand...

I suppose that's the society we live in. Something like that would never work in the US as I suspect it would be 'unconstitutional' and they reserve the right to catch the disease and government can't tell them not to. It looks like it worked well in South Korea up to yet because they may have a different cultural and political background that means they are happy to adopt this kind of thing. Who knows where we lie, but it is clear to me that the history of a nation and it's current political ideology also plays a difference in both the measures taken and the way the public responds to them.   Also it is ironic as just about everyone has already given away their entire behaviour to tech companies through the use of apps and web sites.  So worrying about lack of privacy from this app is very much like bolting the stable door.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which is why the government plans to hire 18,000 contact tracers.  Now we have known for as long as that we needed them - and so we could have initiated the hiring of them well before 23rd April - the date I understand the hiring was kicked-off.  I could be generous and suggest that there is no point in hiring unless we know when the app will be done and out in the population as they'd have nothing to do.  But they could still have been identified and engaged with start date tbc.  I am sure there would be plenty ready to be trained up in readiness.

How will it work?  I'm guessing a bit here.  I have the app downloaded onto my phone (does it have to be an iPhone?) with Bluetooth switched on.  When I get within infection passing range (2m calculated using GPS?) of someone else with the app the ID of his phone/app is logged against mine - and mine against his - and that info will all be synch'd by the app to the cloud database for both of us.  If I contract the virus three contact tracers will be allocated to me.  The database will tell the contact tracers the IDs of the phones and hence the individuals that I've been close to in the previous 2weeks or so.  The tracers then follow-up with contacting all of those individuals to tell them they have been in infectious range of someone who has the virus within the previous 2 weeks.  These individuals are contacted by the tracers and told to isolate, and then _their _proximity contacts are then followed up.  And so it goes on.

I'm thinking that if my proximity contact record shows a lot of contacts in my home 'first part' postcode area, the app could send out an immediate lockdown order to all living in the that postcode. And it could also post a warning via the app that my postcode is in Lockdown and so not to be visited unless essential.

Well that's how I'd make it work.
		
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More or less like the Aussie app, except I read the Aussie one automatically alerts contacts via text.
Of course, it seems both rely on the one testing positive to upload the fact so that the contacts can be alerted


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know we’re straying well away from the point but I do question one point you made, that of the Conservatives having the most socio-economic policies of a U.K. govt ever. As much as it’s difficult for everyone to see past Iraq, have a look at what Blair’s govts achieved. Until the god complex/GW’s puppy phase set in, wow what a record of socialist achievements. What a fab PM in the early days.
...
		
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What Blair achieved was a consequence of his realistic attitude that in order to make change, first you have to be in power! Until Labour re-learns that lesson - that to win an election Labour has to 'appeal to the Right as well as the Left' -  I don't believe they will ever return to government, save through the sort of untimely and mismanaged 'disaster' like Cov-19 could be or the Banking Crisis was, without (re-)grasping that concept and repeating his tactics - appealing to the 'aspirational middle-right' as well as the traditional 'left'!

And, I believe, almost all those socio-economic/social improvement (they no longer seem 'socialist') policies Blair's govt introduced are still in place, so BW's comment about current Conservatives having "The most Socialist Economic Policies of a U.K. Government.. Ever" is likely to be correct! It's the Conservative PR machine that's so much better than Labour's imo! Oh and a completely wrong choice of leader (twice) by 'the Unions' certainly hasn't helped Labour's chances either!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52482553

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Thanks for that.

This seemed the important part. It doesn't say to what extent the isolation was enforced. Was it suggested, or required on pain of fine , or detention.
Or was it known that they are a disciplined nation who, being told to isolate, they would do so.

"
The huge number of tests meant South Korea's infection numbers grew quickly, but also that authorities were able early on to effectively find those who were infected, isolate and treat them.

South Korea also started aggressively contact tracing, finding people who had interacted with a confirmed case, isolating and testing them too.


'At a love motel': Are S Korea virus alerts too revealing?
When someone tested positive, authorities would send out an alert to those living or working nearby. People soon got used to receiving a flurry of these messages from authorities."

Do you think the UK or USA would respond well enough to make it work?


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thanks for that.

This seemed the important part. It doesn't say to what extent the isolation was enforced. Was it suggested, or required on pain of fine , or detention.
Or was it known that they are a disciplined nation who, being told to isolate, they would do so.

"
The huge number of tests meant South Korea's infection numbers grew quickly, but also that authorities were able early on to effectively find those who were infected, isolate and treat them.

South Korea also started aggressively contact tracing, finding people who had interacted with a confirmed case, isolating and testing them too.


'At a love motel': Are S Korea virus alerts too revealing?
When someone tested positive, authorities would send out an alert to those living or working nearby. People soon got used to receiving a flurry of these messages from authorities."

*Do you think the UK or USA would respond well enough to make it work*?
		
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As I said in a previous post, in the US I doubt it.  You have a president who is kind of encouraging people in Democratic states to rebel against lockdowns leading to gun toting 'patriots' going into state capitol buildings. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52496514   So I doubt you'll get a large enough percentage to use an app if the request comes from the government.  

As for the UK I am not sure if young people will listen to the Tory government enough to make it work. And most of the old people who voted Tory probably cant use a smart phone anyway.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

My Mrs is close to an elderly cousin who lives in Yorkshire and has been ringing her a lot as she is a bit down with self isolation.
After tonight's call my wife was upset as her cousin had perked up quite a bit as 'Boris had said we will all be out of it in a couple of weeks'
She did not have the heart to tell her the truth.


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My Mrs is close to an elderly cousin who lives in Yorkshire and has been ringing her a lot as she is a bit down with self isolation.
After tonight's call my wife was upset as her cousin had perked up quite a bit as 'Boris had said we will all be out of it in a couple of weeks'
She did not have the heart to tell her the truth.
		
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What - that he hasn't said any such thing. Or are we making it up again


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What - that he hasn't said any such thing. Or are we making it up again
		
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To be fair it isn't too far away from what he said, or at least the spin the media might be putting on it. He is reported as saying he'd like to see everyone back at work by the 26th. Quite what the detail is and how an old person might interpret it, who knows.


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## 3offTheTee (May 2, 2020)

Hot News:

Wilfred Lawrie Nicholas Johnson


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## Swinglowandslow (May 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As I said in a previous post, in the US I doubt it.  You have a president who is kind of encouraging people in Democratic states to rebel against lockdowns leading to gun toting 'patriots' going into state capitol buildings. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52496514   So I doubt you'll get a large enough percentage to use an app if the request comes from the government. 

As for the UK I am not sure if young people will listen to the Tory government enough to make it work. *And most of the old people who voted Tory probably cant use a smart phone anyway.  [*/QUOTE]

Yes, correct, I reckon. I have one and use some of it.
HID has ordinary mobile phone.  So does my mate. I even have a job to get him to switch it on. The no brainier argument -that if switched on and he collapses, he can be found- doesn't convince🙄
Someone on here uses a watch for mail, music, paying bills, I believe.
Jeez, I feel light years behind. 😀

But, seriously, overall the app will be a good thing.
		
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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

So apparently he nearly died, yet wasn't put on a ventilator, talk about propaganda spin at the highest level. 

Remember folks, question everything.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So apparently he nearly died, yet wasn't put on a ventilator, talk about propaganda spin at the highest level.

Remember folks, question everything.
		
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Are you an expert in how Covid patients are ventilated?


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

I'm an expert BS detector.

Hope that helps.


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## User62651 (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So apparently he nearly died, yet wasn't put on a ventilator, talk about propaganda spin at the highest level.

Remember folks, question everything.
		
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Would like to give Boris the benefit of the doubt for once but you just can't help but think this sympathy card played yesterday was orchestrated for a reason, I guess everything released to media is, not sure what the point of it was really, he came out of hospital weeks ago after all and did the platitudes to NHS staff back then. I don't doubt he we as very ill though just by the look of him even now, bit sunken looking. What reinforcing to us how ill he was does, who knows, maybe looking at more time off. It won't affect whether people like or trust him anymore.

Longer term I think he'll do the 5 years and move on, not convinced he really sees PM job as a long term thing and it's a tough road ahead.  He's not a Thatcher or Brown, i.e. a workaholic politician, he'll tire of it by 60 imo.


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## drdel (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm an expert BS detector.

Hope that helps.
		
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Get it recalibrated and save yourself unnecessary angst.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm an expert BS detector.

Hope that helps.
		
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That may be so but please explain your source of information about his treatment and why you believe it was propaganda and spin at the highest level. I'm sure you will have an explanation.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Do you think he'd have named his son after a doctor if said doctor was called Abdul or Mohammed perhaps  no, me neither.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That may be so but please explain your source of information about his treatment and why you believe it was propaganda and spin at the highest level. I'm sure you will have an explanation.
		
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There you go again asking me to do your work for you, well much like the last time, do your own research, I'm not your donkey.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			There you go again asking me to do your work for you, well much like the last time, do your own research, I'm not your donkey.
		
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So how about this quote today from the BBC. Is this what you're refering to:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52518328


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Would like to give Boris the benefit of the doubt for once but you just can't help but think this sympathy card played yesterday was orchestrated for a reason, I guess everything released to media is, not sure what the point of it was really, he came out of hospital weeks ago after all and did the platitudes to NHS staff back then. I don't doubt he we as very ill though just by the look of him even now, bit sunken looking. What reinforcing to us how ill he was does, who knows, maybe looking at more time off. It won't affect whether people like or trust him anymore.

Longer term I think he'll do the 5 years and move on, not convinced he really sees PM job as a long term thing and it's a tough road ahead.  He's not a Thatcher or Brown, i.e. a workaholic politician, he'll tire of it by 60 imo.
		
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i would tend to agree, its doesn't right to me. but thats what you get when you have a serial liar, i would tend to question everything he says.


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## harpo_72 (May 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Would like to give Boris the benefit of the doubt for once but you just can't help but think this sympathy card played yesterday was orchestrated for a reason, I guess everything released to media is, not sure what the point of it was really, he came out of hospital weeks ago after all and did the platitudes to NHS staff back then. I don't doubt he we as very ill though just by the look of him even now, bit sunken looking. What reinforcing to us how ill he was does, who knows, maybe looking at more time off. It won't affect whether people like or trust him anymore.

Longer term I think he'll do the 5 years and move on, not convinced he really sees PM job as a long term thing and it's a tough road ahead.  He's not a Thatcher or Brown, i.e. a workaholic politician, he'll tire of it by 60 imo.
		
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Wife said he was close .. she is right of centre but even she was struggling.
I think the hospital pulled the stops out. A PM dying is bad PR .. ! Either way you look at it they did a good job. The thing is if he was that close is he going to change his attitudes? Time will tell.
Let’s just be happy he is back in charge of his government.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i would tend to agree, its doesn't right to me. but thats what you get when you have a serial liar, i would tend to question everything he says.
		
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Unbelieveable, talk about kicking a man when hes down. Anyone who can suggest he and the NHS I presume; could say Boris was making up the seriousness of his illness needs to take a long look at themselves.


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbelieveable, talk about kicking a man when hes down. Anyone who can suggest he and the NHS I presume; could say Boris was making up the seriousness of his illness needs to take a long look at themselves.
		
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well thats what happens when you tell lie after lie, i would tend to take every thing with a pinch of salt.

you might believe everything he says and does... i don't


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## chrisd (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbelieveable, talk about kicking a man when hes down. Anyone who can suggest he and the NHS I presume; could say Boris was making up the seriousness of his illness needs to take a long look at themselves.
		
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Its every opportunity taken to criticise the Conservatives, Boris, Parliament etc .... maybe look closer to home at their own Leader, Party and Parliament- hardly a beacon for how politics should be run 😖


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm an expert BS detector.

Hope that helps.
		
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drdel said:



			Get it recalibrated and save yourself unnecessary angst.
		
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Or stop looking in the mirror so often!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Its every opportunity taken to criticise the Conservatives, Boris, Parliament etc .... maybe look closer to home at their own Leader, Party and Parliament- hardly a beacon for how politics should be run 😖
		
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Come on Chris, we may be on the opposite side with political belief, but I’ve always found you honest, your post above applies equally to both sides.

Look back at any political thread on here and you’ll see extreme and balanced posts from all sides.

We’re currently in the midst of a worldwide crisis and our Government is tory, what on earth has it to do with any other party? Any other party can’t have an input without the Government inviting them in.

I don’t believe for one minute that if we had a Labour Government and they had done 100% what this Government has done they’d be immune from any criticism or personal attacks, we’ve even had childish digs at Starmer for no reason whatsoever today.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			well thats what happens when you tell lie after lie, i would tend to take every thing with a pinch of salt.

you might believe everything he says and does... i don't
		
Click to expand...

True enough!

Though I have no doubt that his illness was genuine! Too many other folk involved to be anything but!


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Chris, we may be on the opposite side with political belief, but I’ve always found you honest, your post above applies equally to both sides.

Look back at any political thread on here and you’ll see extreme and balanced posts from all sides.

We’re currently in the midst of a worldwide crisis and our Government is tory, what on earth has it to do with any other party? Any other party can’t have an input without the Government inviting them in.

I don’t believe for one minute that if we had a Labour Government and they had done 100% what this Government has done they’d be immune from any criticism or personal attacks, we’ve even had childish digs at Starmer for no reason whatsoever today.
		
Click to expand...

I think Starmer has been a breath of fresh air. I've watched a couple of PMQ's, and a few interviews. I think the under the current circumstances he's absolutely struck the right balance. There's been the odd thing he's said that I didn't agree with but it would be splitting hairs to be fair. Well impressed.


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## Hacker Khan (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			True enough!

Though I have no doubt that his illness was genuine! Too many other folk involved to be anything but!
		
Click to expand...

I also think he was genuinely very ill.  We're just seeing the consequences of electing a popularist PM who has always known to be a bit light on detail and has been known to bend the truth in the past for personal and political gain.

Those that bought into his popularist schtick will still buy in, those that did not will always be questioning. So any genuine good work he does will be will questioned by many that do not trust him and any signs of vague competence will be lauded by his supporters. As is always the way, a leaders past behaviors and the type of person we elect to lead our country will have consequences further down the line.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Though I have no doubt that his illness was genuine! Too many other folk involved to be anything but!
		
Click to expand...

Has anyone suggested his illness wasn't genuine ? No didn't think so, but the political stunt, whoever's idea it was, to say he near died and then name his son after the doctors who "saved" him is all bit to sickening for my liking. 

Woah betide our glorious leader rises from his death bed like Lazarus to save us all, and some of you lot actually believe it


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Agreed. Gives me hope we might eventually have a viable opposition again.
		
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And, imho, that's as important to democracy as having a competent government! As is having a free and competent Press!


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As is having a free and competent Press!
		
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Oh well, it was all going so well to


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Agreed. Gives me hope we might eventually have a viable opposition again.
		
Click to expand...

Unsurprisingly I am hoping for a bit more... A socialist 'of the people' government would be, for me, happy days 👍✌...


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Has anyone suggested his illness wasn't genuine ? No didn't think so, but the *political stunt*, whoever's idea it was, to say he near died and then *name his son after the doctors who "saved" him is all bit to sickening for my liking*.

Woah betide our glorious leader rises from his death bed like Lazarus to save us all, and some of you lot actually believe it 

Click to expand...




HappyHacker1 said:



			Oh well, it was all going so well to 

Click to expand...

Your cynicism appears to 'know no bounds'!


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Chris, we may be on the opposite side with political belief, but I’ve always found you honest, your post above applies equally to both sides.

Look back at any political thread on here and you’ll see extreme and balanced posts from all sides.

We’re currently in the midst of a worldwide crisis and our Government is tory, what on earth has it to do with any other party? Any other party can’t have an input without the Government inviting them in.

I don’t believe for one minute that if we had a Labour Government and they had done 100% what this Government has done they’d be immune from any criticism or personal attacks, we’ve *even had childish digs at Starmer for no reason whatsoever today.*

Click to expand...

What childish digs have been made against Starmer, I assume you are not meaning on this forum?


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## chrisd (May 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Chris, we may be on the opposite side with political belief, but I’ve always found you honest, your post above applies equally to both sides.

Look back at any political thread on here and you’ll see extreme and balanced posts from all sides.

We’re currently in the midst of a worldwide crisis and our Government is tory, what on earth has it to do with any other party? Any other party can’t have an input without the Government inviting them in.

I don’t believe for one minute that if we had a Labour Government and they had done 100% what this Government has done they’d be immune from any criticism or personal attacks, we’ve even had childish digs at Starmer for no reason whatsoever today.
		
Click to expand...

Paul, I'm not saying that any of this pandemic and its decision making is down to any other party, I'm simply saying that whatever the thread, whatever the discussion there are one or two on here who time after time call out the Conservatives,  Boris and Parliament, but their own Government is absolute crap it would just be refreshing if they acknowledged that some times


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Your cynicism appears to 'know no bounds'!
		
Click to expand...


As I said earlier, had the doctors been called Abdul or Mohammed do you think he'd have named his son after them ? Genuine question, do you ?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2020)

He was barely credible and then he started waffling about plans for his succession.
Those plans are already in place permanently as with Pope, Queenie, St Johnstone FC manager etc., load of the usual self serving jingoistic nonsense.


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## harpo_72 (May 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm not saying that any of this pandemic and its decision making is down to any other party, I'm simply saying that whatever the thread, whatever the discussion there are one or two on here who time after time call out the Conservatives,  Boris and Parliament, but their own Government is absolute crap it would just be refreshing if they acknowledged that some times
		
Click to expand...

There is no other government .. the Tories, and Boris are in the driving seat,they make the decisions- what the others would do is purely hypothetical. The people and the press have every right to judge and comment on Boris and the government to criticise any of the other parties based on pure speculation are the actions of someone with a narrow mind or too much imagination.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



*So apparently he nearly died, yet wasn't put on a ventilator, talk about propaganda spin at the highest level.

Remember folks, question everything*.
		
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HappyHacker1 said:



*Has anyone suggested his illness wasn't genuine ? No didn't think so, but the political stunt, whoever's idea it was, to say he near died and then name his son after the doctors who "saved" him is all bit to sickening for my liking.

Woah betide our glorious leader rises from his death bed like Lazarus to save us all, and some of you lot actually believe it *

Click to expand...

Unbelievable.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Unsurprisingly I am hoping for a bit more... A socialist 'of the people' government would be, for me, happy days 👍✌...
		
Click to expand...

It would also be a first for this country. 

At least for the last 70 years anyway.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbelievable.
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly but apparently some believe it all.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			My thoughts exactly but apparently some believe it all.
		
Click to expand...

Not what you've posted, its contradictory.


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			It would also be a first for this country.

At least for the last 70 years anyway.
		
Click to expand...

About time we gained some first hand experience then...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm not saying that any of this pandemic and its decision making is down to any other party, I'm simply saying that whatever the thread, whatever the discussion there are one or two on here who time after time call out the Conservatives,  Boris and Parliament, but their own Government is absolute crap it would just be refreshing if they acknowledged that some times
		
Click to expand...

And I agree, just as some on the right take every opportunity time after time call out the Labour Party, the Leader and anyone else who isn’t tory.

Calling out the opposition doesn’t always mean the Party they support is better.

edit: I’ll tell what’s worse Chris, those who make pathetic political comments putting others down on the random irritations thread without ever actually having the guts to debate their position on actual threads. (Not aimed at you personally in anyway)


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			About time we gained some first hand experience then...
		
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What, like  Venezuela?


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Not what you've posted, its contradictory.
		
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Show me proof, where is there a link to it, you can't make unsubstantiated allegations like that without proof.


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Show me proof, where is there a link to it, you can't make unsubstantiated allegations like that without proof. 

Click to expand...

oh yes he can


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			As I said earlier, had the doctors been called Abdul or Mohammed do you think he'd have named his son after them ? Genuine question, do you ?
		
Click to expand...

Post 1352 applies - again!


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			What, like  Venezuela?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd describe any recent government of Venezuela as being 'of the people'... Too much military involvement in those parts from my limited knowledge of the region...


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Post 1352 applies - again!
		
Click to expand...

I'll be clear, never in a million years would it have happened.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'll be clear, never in a million years would it have happened. 

Click to expand...

IYO!

Though, even with the best medical in the world, after a couple of hundred years, the question would likely be moot!


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Show me proof, where is there a link to it, you can't make unsubstantiated allegations like that without proof. 

Click to expand...

Would we continually say show me the link to our mates down the pub? Not pointing fingers at you per se but its getting tedious.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Show me proof, where is there a link to it, you can't make unsubstantiated allegations like that without proof. 

Click to expand...

OK, read post #1360 again, the proof is there for you and all to see.


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## Fade and Die (May 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Unsurprisingly I am hoping for a bit more... A socialist 'of the people' government would be, for me, happy days 👍✌...
		
Click to expand...


Yes because Socialist Governments are always a success, and just what we need!😂😂...🤪


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Would we continually say show me the link to our mates down the pub? Not pointing fingers at you per se but its getting tedious.

View attachment 30422

Click to expand...


I think you've missed my point, The rocket has repeatedly asked me to produce links to info everytime he questions something I've said, I was merely throwing it back at him.


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I think you've missed my point, The rocket has repeatedly asked me to produce links to info everytime he questions something I've said, I was merely throwing it back at him.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't miss it but maybe you missed mine. By you doing it, how are you different from him? Just asking for a friend, seriously can't be arrised with an argument over it.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, read post #1360 again, the proof is there for you and all to see.
		
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He nearly dies they said...stunt. (not suggesting his hospitalisation was a stunt, just the subsequent release of saying he nearly died)

He named his son after the doctors...stunt.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't miss it but maybe you missed mine. By you doing it, how are you different from him? Just asking for a friend, seriously can't be arrised with an argument over it.
		
Click to expand...

It was sarcasm on my behalf towards her, so not even sure why you got involved and now saying you can't be bothered seems a bit weird


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It was sarcasm on my behalf towards her, so not even sure why you got involved and now saying you can't be bothered seems a bit weird 

Click to expand...

Call it a rhetorical point if that helps you understand it, i.e. making you aware of how it looks without any read desire to be part of it.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Call it a rhetorical point if that helps you understand it, i.e. making you aware of how it looks without any read desire to be part of it.
		
Click to expand...

Well like I said, it was sarcasm for the number of times I've been asked produce links etc.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			He nearly dies they said...stunt. (not suggesting his hospitalisation was a stunt, just the subsequent release of saying he nearly died)

He named his son after the doctors...stunt.
		
Click to expand...

You say that him nearly dieing was a stunt, I challenged that and gave you a BBC article where a couple of nurses who helped him explained how I'll he was but you insist it was a stunt.
He and his partner can name their baby after whoever they wish and naming it after a doctor is a nice touch. It takes a certain kind of cynicism to suggest it was a stunt.


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes because Socialist Governments are always a success, and just what we need!😂😂...🤪
		
Click to expand...

As we've not had such a government for seventy years how can you be sure 😉✌...


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Well like I said, it was sarcasm for the number of times I've been asked produce links etc.
		
Click to expand...

Then dont make unsubstantiated comments.
What is wrong with someone asking for some evidence where a claim is made that refers to something that was read?


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't miss it but maybe you missed mine. By you doing it, how are you different from him? Just asking for a friend, seriously can't be arrised with an argument over it.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on, wasn't it you who kept asking me for proof that the govt had set a target of testing 100k people a day?


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What is wrong with someone asking for some evidence where a claim is made that refers to something that was read?
		
Click to expand...

Can't see what's right about it myself... Which is why I've never asked another to post a link... Seems un-gentlemanly, to me, to do so...


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Hang on, wasn't it you who kept asking me for proof that the govt had set a target of testing 100k people a day?
		
Click to expand...

Well there's a shock. The village idiot has come out to play.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You say that him nearly dieing was a stunt,.
		
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I said, it *being said* that he nearly died was a stunt, I never said him nearly dying was a stunt, two completely different things. 

Don't you find it just in the slightest a little bit suspicious that they have just come out with that now ? 

If the PM of this country "nearly died" we'd have heard all about it long before now, that is why I believe the now subsequent Lazarus news of the PM nearly dying just all a bit wishy washy, don't you think ?


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## IanM (May 3, 2020)

I guess Boris was down the pub playing darts eh?


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Well there's a shock. The village idiot has come out to play.
		
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That's right, get nasty when someone highlights your hypocrisy.


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You say that him nearly dieing was a stunt, I challenged that and gave you a BBC article where a couple of nurses who helped him explained how I'll he was but you insist it was a stunt.
He and his partner can name their baby after whoever they wish and naming it after a doctor is a nice touch. It takes a certain kind of cynicism to suggest it was a stunt.
		
Click to expand...

Honest question - I checked the link you provided and can't see any quotes from the nurses, did you post the wrong link?


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Honest question - I checked the link you provided and can't see any quotes from the nurses, did you post the wrong link?
		
Click to expand...

That's odd. When I read that link it had the part about Boris and then it went on to a section where the two nurses who looked after him explained their experience.


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## Jacko_G (May 3, 2020)

Popcorn at the ready. This has potential....

😂👍


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## drdel (May 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He was barely credible and then he started waffling about plans for his succession.
Those plans are already in place permanently as with Pope, Queenie, St Johnstone FC manager etc., load of the usual self serving jingoistic nonsense.
		
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A good maxim...

"The stronger the vitriol the weaker the logic."


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## Hacker Khan (May 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Popcorn at the ready. This has potential....

😂👍
		
Click to expand...








I suspect lockdown is having a bigger impact on people then they realise.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:





rudebhoy said:



			Hang on, wasn't it you who kept asking me for proof that the govt had set a target of testing 100k people a day?
		
Click to expand...

Well there's a shock. The village idiot has come out to play.
		
Click to expand...

Not very well deflected! Kindly answer the question!


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## PhilTheFragger (May 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Popcorn at the ready. This has potential....

😂👍
		
Click to expand...

Oh no it doesn’t......... sorry to piddle on your chips 👍


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Popcorn at the ready. This has potential....

😂👍
		
Click to expand...

it does, Tories crying that Boris is getting some, what a supriase....and as Corp Jones would say they don't like up Em, don't do as do do as i say. 

and a s for the Scottish Gov being poor at least Nicola can read of a cue card, unlike Boris plus its not so long ago the Tory boys were happt to make personal cooments about her appeance , one rule for a Tory and another for anyone else


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			it does, Tories crying that Boris is getting some, what a supriase....and as Corp Jones would say they don't like up Em, don't do as do do as i say.

and a s for the Scottish Gov being poor at least Nicola can read of a cue card, unlike Boris plus its not so long ago the Tory boys were happt to make personal cooments about her appeance , one rule for a Tory and another for anyone else
		
Click to expand...

This has become too combative and name calling even for me.  I cant be drawn into any more on this thread its become like Boris open season. Please get on with it, I'm out.


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This has become too combative and name calling even for me.  I cant be drawn into any more on this thread its become like Boris open season. please get on with it, I'm out.
		
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funny it didn't stop you during the brexit or GE thread you were quite happy to be pretty personal and rude and  insulting to anyone who didn;t agree with you?


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm not saying that any of this pandemic and its decision making is down to any other party, I'm simply saying that whatever the thread, whatever the discussion there are one or two on here who time after time call out the Conservatives,  Boris and Parliament, but their own Government is absolute crap it would just be refreshing if they acknowledged that some times
		
Click to expand...

why you don't??


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## PhilTheFragger (May 4, 2020)

Thread reopened 
Please play nice or it will be closed permanently


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened
Please play nice or it will be closed permanently
		
Click to expand...

'A new beginning' then. How appropriate!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Hmmm.  Before the thread was closed I was simply going to observe that the most at risk patients are put onto a ventilator. Our PM was fortunate that his condition was not serious enough for him to be put onto a ventilator.  Of course he could have arrested suddenly or taken a very rapid turn for the worse.  However given that we now have 28,000 deaths and many families mourning the loss of loved ones - maybe his advisors could just have considered whether or not we actually *needed* to know more from him and in a particular newspaper about his condition than we already knew - that he was very ill from Covid-19. I wish him well in his recovery.

I will just add that the reason I say this is that if we must all be kept on board the current strategy and accept new ones - as we must - then we all need to be confident that everything the pm says and does is without self or party interest, and that there is no ulterior motive. As he himself said on his return, openness and clarity about all and everything we are asked to do is essential.  That is his new beginning for me.

I need to trust.  At the moment I am still on-side.


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## harpo_72 (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm.  Before the thread was closed I was simply going to observe that the most at risk patients are put onto a ventilator. Our PM was fortunate that his condition was not serious enough for him to be put onto a ventilator.  Of course he could have arrested suddenly or taken a very rapid turn for the worse.  However given that we now have 28,000 deaths and many families mourning the loss of loved ones - maybe his advisors could just have considered whether or not we actually *needed* to know more from him and in a particular newspaper about his condition than we already knew - that he was very ill from Covid-19. I wish him well in his recovery.

I will just add that the reason I say this is that if we must all be kept on board the current strategy and accept new ones - as we must - then we all need to be confident that everything the pm says and does is without self or party interest, and that there is no ulterior motive. As he himself said on his return, openness and clarity about all and everything we are asked to do is essential.  That is his new beginning for me.

I need to trust.  At the moment I am still on-side.
		
Click to expand...

So is he on track .. I’ve not seen the news yet


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So is he on track .. I’ve not seen the news yet
		
Click to expand...

The news today from London is good.  Not heard for the rest of the country...but it will surely be improving in the days to come.

I'd like the PM's plan that is to be presented on Sunday makes very clear what *we *are expected to do in the event of a flare up in any town, city or region.  

I would very much want that direction to be supported by a clear rationale, and that rationale might well need the government to tell us of some things that they could have done better or sooner in February - and that because of the learning gained from then we *must *do different 'next time' a flare-up is spotted.

Hope so.


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## rudebhoy (May 6, 2020)




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## Hacker Khan (May 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The news today from London is good.  Not heard for the rest of the country...but it will surely be improving in the days to come.

I'd like the PM's plan that is to be presented on Sunday makes very clear what *we *are expected to do in the event of a flare up in any town, city or region. 
*
I would very much want that direction to be supported by a clear rationale, and that rationale might well need the government to tell us of some things that they could have done better or sooner in February - and that because of the learning gained from then we must do different 'next time' a flare-up is spotted.*

Hope so.
		
Click to expand...

We live in a nation where one of the world leading experts on disease modeling is no longer advising the government in the middle of the the biggest disease and pandemic crisis this country has every faced in modern times, because it was feared the public would ignore government advice as he had a bit of extra curricular hanky panky when he should not be having said hanky panky. Do you really think giving detailed rationales, issuing mea culpas and detailing the clear steps we will take if (and lets face it, it is more likely to be when) a future flare up is detected will be of any use? 

As I have said many times, the trust we have in the government is not really dictated by what they say now, but a lot of it is a result of how they have behaved in the past.  And personally I think Boris putting his serious face on and fessing up won't change that much at all.


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## rosecott (May 11, 2020)

I was unable to watch today's briefing on television but was able to listen to some of it on the radio. I got the distinct impression that he was really not well and really not up to fronting these briefings. Was that the same impression you got when watching it?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

No, I watched him closely and he seemed bright eyed and bushy tailed.

He gave me the impression that he was saying stuff that he did not believe in.
He also dithered and bumbled quite a bit as per normal.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I was unable to watch today's briefing on television but was able to listen to some of it on the radio. I got the distinct impression that he was really not well and really not up to fronting these briefings. Was that the same impression you got when watching it?
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I watched him closely and he seemed bright eyed and bushy tailed.

He gave me the impression that he was saying stuff that he did not believe in.
He also dithered and bumbled quite a bit as per normal.
		
Click to expand...

I thought he didn't look his best and that he tired quickly. However, I thought he spoke well but that the message was, on occasion, a little ambiguous. The message is there but he's expecting too much of people. All well and good treating people like intelligent adults but there's a section that need a clear "do this, don't do that."


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## Mudball (May 12, 2020)

Who comes up with things like this.. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258282699472715776


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2020)

The clip below Lord by Donkeys was spot on.

Next Election

Tory voters stay at home.
Protect the NHS
Save lives.


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## rosecott (May 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Who comes up with things like this..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258282699472715776

Click to expand...

Who helps by giving them the oxygen of passing them on.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The clip below Lord by Donkeys was spot on.

Next Election

Tory voters stay at home.
Protect the NHS
Save lives.
		
Click to expand...

Nice one! It did give me a good chuckle...


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I thought he didn't look his best and that he tired quickly. However, I thought he spoke well but that the message was, on occasion, a little ambiguous. The message is there but he's expecting too much of people. All well and good treating people like intelligent adults but there's a section that need a clear "do this, don't do that."
		
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I see where you are coming from, and I agree there are numpties but surely we cannot bring everything down to the lowest denominator. You understood, I understood, most everybody understood. The journos mischievously said they didn't etc, but no government or authoritative body giving advice should have to make that advice an instruction because thickos can't comprehend it.
It seems we have a populace now that expects to be told every little detail and using common sense and working things out intelligently is beyond them.
Almost brainwashed.

Example.... pedestrian crossings where the walker presses a button and the lights turn red and then you can cross.
I've seen so many fit 30-40-50 yr olds walk to the crossing on a virtually empty road and press the button. Whereas if they had thought for a second they could have safely crossed cos the nearest car is 100 yards  away.

Sorry, if the message is properly there, then the job's been done.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see where you are coming from, and I agree there are numpties but surely we cannot bring everything down to the lowest denominator. You understood, I understood, most everybody understood. The journos mischievously said they didn't etc, but no government or authoritative body giving advice should have to make that advice an instruction because thickos can't comprehend it.
It seems we have a populace now that expects to be told every little detail and using common sense and working things out intelligently is beyond them.
Almost brainwashed.

Example.... pedestrian crossings where the walker presses a button and the lights turn red and then you can cross.
I've seen so many fit 30-40-50 yr olds walk to the crossing on a virtually empty road and press the button. Whereas if they had thought for a second they could have safely crossed cos the nearest car is 100 yards  away.

Sorry, if the message is properly there, then the job's been done.
		
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I don't disagree. But for some its a bit like a "Give Way" sign at a junction. Some will get angry if you honk your horn because you think they cut it a little fine. Equally, I've had HID moan from the passenger seat that a guy pulled out a bit sharpish but I thought there was plenty of room. And that's why messages need to be unambiguous. If left to interpretation some people will unintentionally stray over the line, whilst others will deliberately do so. But if its a "Stop" sign there's no ambiguity.


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see where you are coming from, and I agree there are numpties but surely we cannot bring everything down to the lowest denominator. You understood, I understood, most everybody understood. The journos mischievously said they didn't etc, but no government or authoritative body giving advice should have to make that advice an instruction because thickos can't comprehend it.
It seems we have a populace now that expects to be told every little detail and using common sense and working things out intelligently is beyond them.
Almost brainwashed.

Example.... pedestrian crossings where the walker presses a button and the lights turn red and then you can cross.
I've seen so many fit 30-40-50 yr olds walk to the crossing on a virtually empty road and press the button. Whereas if they had thought for a second they could have safely crossed cos the nearest car is 100 yards  away.

Sorry, if the message is properly there, then the job's been done.
		
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I agree. There seems to be a default position that says "I'm not accepting that and complain about anything", especially lack of direction. Except those same people would immediately hit the social media saying their Rights are infringed by the Nanny State issuing dictatorial instructions.

The Government has issued advice, strong advice based on the recommendations from some of the best medics in the UK. The briefings and detailed guidance is easily understood by those bothering to see the message and willing to take a bit of responsibility and act accordingly.

No wonder the Aussies still call us the 'Whinging Poms' !!!

People need to accept the danger and delicacy of the situation and this latest set of advice is only for a couple of weeks, and if all goes well more relaxations of the constraints will come on-stream. If we muck about and rush ahead the constraints will last longer and might even be more stringent and costly (money and lives).


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## User62651 (May 14, 2020)

So appears another broken Brexit promise from Boris - He promised this would not happen, did he not?

Brexit will mean checks on goods crossing Irish Sea, government admits

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...admits?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


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## Mudball (May 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			So appears _*YET*_ *another broken Brexit promise from Boris* - He promised this would not happen, did he not?

Brexit will mean checks on goods crossing Irish Sea, government admits

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...admits?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

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Fixed the text for you ...Does this surprise you?  Nothing to see here, keep moving..


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree. There seems to be a default position that says "I'm not accepting that and complain about anything", especially lack of direction. Except those same people would immediately hit the social media saying their Rights are infringed by the Nanny State issuing dictatorial instructions.

The Government has issued advice, strong advice based on the recommendations from some of the best medics in the UK. The briefings and detailed guidance is easily understood by those bothering to see the message and willing to take a bit of responsibility and act accordingly.

No wonder the Aussies still call us the 'Whinging Poms' !!!

People need to accept the danger and delicacy of the situation and this latest set of advice is only for a couple of weeks, and if all goes well more relaxations of the constraints will come on-stream. If we muck about and rush ahead the constraints will last longer and might even be more stringent and costly (money and lives).
		
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There is no doubt in my mind that Boris should have been a clearer in his announcement. He said a few things that we unclear and when making policy statements to the Nation that's not good. He didnt need to make comments like 'return to work from tomorrow ' when the next day we were told it's from Wednesday, all he needed to do was say there would be new arrangements for some people returning to work, sports and social gatherings and the details would be available Monday.  I would also suggest it's normal to present the changes to Parliament for discussion first.   Nothing to do with whinging, it's about clear unambiguous information.


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## drdel (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no doubt in my mind that Boris should have been a clearer in his announcement. He said a few things that we unclear and when making policy statements to the Nation that's not good. He didnt need to make comments like 'return to work from tomorrow ' when the next day we were told it's from Wednesday, all he needed to do was say there would be new arrangements for some people returning to work, sports and social gatherings and the details would be available Monday.  I would also suggest it's normal to present the changes to Parliament for discussion first.   Nothing to do with whinging, it's about clear unambiguous information.
		
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I accept what you say and the statement was not the best of briefings.

However the Cabinet is the Executive body of Government in the UK. Had there been a virtual discussion by MP's then the media message would have been on their  arguments and a long way from the core intention of providing transparent information direct to the public


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## patricks148 (May 14, 2020)

anyway talking of Twitter...https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...jF_RR9yiTaH9okVjTRq6DHiawig8yUrbn1ggJZqs4y6X0


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			anyway talking of Twitter...https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...jF_RR9yiTaH9okVjTRq6DHiawig8yUrbn1ggJZqs4y6X0

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She should be sacked for posting such defamatory rubbish - and a Health minister into the bargain.  Maybe she felt she needed to start trying to undermine Starmer given he seems to know how to expose Johnson as the 'all skirt nae knickers' politician that he is.


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She should be sacked for posting such defamatory rubbish - and a Health minister into the bargain.  Maybe she felt she needed to start trying to undermine Starmer given he seems to know how to expose Johnson as the 'all skirt nae knickers' politician that he is.
		
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Apparently summoned to Downing St silly woman. As bad as those MPs and officials that published some unsavory stuff about BJ when he was in intensive care. They all should be sacked from holding public office IMO.


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## ColchesterFC (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She should be sacked for posting such defamatory rubbish - and a Health minister into the bargain.  Maybe she felt she needed to start trying to undermine Starmer given he seems to know how to expose Johnson as the 'all skirt nae knickers' politician that he is.
		
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It seems as though Keir Starmer has accepted the rebuke that has been handed out to those that re-tweeted the libellous/defamatory tweets. I can only hope that in similar circumstances that I would be so willing to accept this outcome rather than to take further action....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653609


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## patricks148 (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She should be sacked for posting such defamatory rubbish - and a Health minister into the bargain.  Maybe she felt she needed to start trying to undermine Starmer given he seems to know how to expose Johnson as the 'all skirt nae knickers' politician that he is.
		
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i cant believe  this level of stupidity and one is Gov Minister


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## Lord Tyrion (May 15, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i cant believe  this level of stupidity and one is Gov Minister

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Youve clearly never come across Nadine Dorris before. Promoted so far above her ability, a rent a quote mp who should have been left on the backbench.


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## larmen (May 15, 2020)

Are we really that surprised? Have a look at the last couple of pages of the labour leader discussion on here. Someone immediately came in with a selection of Jimmy Saville 'facts' but to stir things up, it just didn't get any hold (this time).

Today's politics is not about doing well, it is about slandering the other guy. And the more dirt somebody has on themselves the more they make up stuff about the other guy, pay people to do so, and keep repeating it until people dumb enough start to believe and keep sharing it as well.


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## rudebhoy (May 20, 2020)

Read tonight that Boris has appeared at the daily briefings 4 times in the last 8 weeks. I know he was out of action for a couple of weeks, but his lack of visibility at a time of crisis is really worrying. The only time we seem to hear from him now is his weekly roasting at PMQs.

I'm not a great fan of Sturgeon, but to give her her due, she has given her briefing for 56 days on the trot.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Read tonight that Boris has appeared at the daily briefings 4 times in the last 8 weeks. I know he was out of action for a couple of weeks, but his lack of visibility at a time of crisis is really worrying. The only time we seem to hear from him now is his weekly roasting at PMQs.

I'm not a great fan of Sturgeon, but to give her her due, she has given her briefing for 56 days on the trot.
		
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they appear to be going though all minsters in an attemp to find one who will not look out of their depth, i wouldn't be sup if one day we get the caretaker from Conservative HQ


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			they appear to be going though all minsters in an attemp to find one who will not look out of their depth, i wouldn't be sup if one day we get the caretaker from Conservative HQ
		
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The caretaker? Careful now -  I got criticised for suggesting that we were getting ministers from the 2nd 11.🙄 Though to be fair, as he was new to me he didn’t come with the dissembling baggage most come with and so I was able to listen to him (nearly) without any great prejudice 😊


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

The consistency of the Scottish Governments messaging is certainly backed up by one person delivering it.
84% backing is huge.
Jean Freeman has also been a bit of a star, she is my MSP and to be honest I never thought she had that degree of ability.
Tough role being Health Minister at the moment, some of the opposition MSP's and unionist journalists questions make you just want to shake your head.
They also just keep asking the same questions over and over again.
I really don't know how Nicola has remained so calm in the face of such stupidity.


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## DRW (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Read tonight that Boris has appeared at the daily briefings 4 times in the last 8 weeks. I know he was out of action for a couple of weeks, but his lack of visibility at a time of crisis is really worrying. The only time we seem to hear from him now is his weekly roasting at PMQs.

I'm not a great fan of Sturgeon, but to give her her due, she has given her briefing for 56 days on the trot.
		
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I'm not a fan of Boris, but to give him the FULL benefit of the truth, did you think not to look when Boris came back to work. It was :-

27 April 2020.

Not quite 8 weeks or a couple of week out of action, don't let the truth get in the way of a good made up story.

Also to be fair to him, he spent time in Hospital and in intensive care, do you think on the 27/4/20 he was fully fit. I would bet a penny he was not, he was probably still knackered.


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

DRW said:



			I'm not a fan of Boris, but to give him the FULL benefit of the truth, did you think not to look when Boris came back to work. It was :-

27 April 2020.

Not quite 8 weeks or a couple of week out of action, don't let the truth get in the way of a good made up story.

Also to be fair to him, he spent time in Hospital and in intensive care, do you think on the 27/4/20 he was fully fit. I would bet a penny he was not, he was probably still knackered.
		
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I think the common view among medic is - Recovery from a mild dose is about 2 weeks, serious dose 8 weeks with tiredness lasting longer (BBC summary)


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## DanFST (May 21, 2020)

DRW said:



			Also to be fair to him, he spent time in Hospital and in intensive care, do you think on the 27/4/20 he was fully fit. I would bet a penny he was not, he was probably still knackered.
		
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I wasn't in hospital and I still felt like i'd been beaten up with a baseball bat for a couple weeks after the quarantine period with my suspected case. Not nice at all.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2020)

Personally, I have no problem in various cabinet ministers giving briefings. Not only does it spread the load but it reduces the cult of the leader. Also no bad thing for us to get familiar with all members of the cabinet rather than just 2 or 3 in the key posts.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The caretaker? Careful now -  I got criticised for suggesting that we were getting ministers from the 2nd 11.🙄 Though to be fair, as he was new to me he didn’t come with the dissembling baggage most come with and so I was able to listen to him (nearly) without any great prejudice 😊
		
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You certainly come over as not being able to listen to anyone from this government without prejudice. Now you've virtually admitted it.
I always thought it good practice  to listen to people without prejudice and then examine what was said and then make a conclusion.


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## rudebhoy (May 21, 2020)

DRW said:



			I'm not a fan of Boris, but to give him the FULL benefit of the truth, did you think not to look when Boris came back to work. It was :-

27 April 2020.

Not quite 8 weeks or a couple of week out of action, don't let the truth get in the way of a good made up story.
		
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I wasn't talking about when he came back to work, I was talking about him being visible and broadcasting to the nation. The daily briefings are a great platform to get the govts message across, unfortunately it feels like he'd rather not do that. 

But you are right, it's not 8 weeks, it's actually 9 weeks and 3 days since they started.


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## DRW (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I wasn't talking about when he came back to work, I was talking about him being visible and broadcasting to the nation. The daily briefings are a great platform to get the govts message across, unfortunately it feels like he'd rather not do that.

But you are right, it's not 8 weeks, it's actually 9 weeks and 3 days since they started.
		
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Bizarre, how can he be visible when in hospital or ill with the virus.

Blimely think I will leave it at that, as don't really have anything to say or add, if you feel that he should be judged on his performance for the whole period.

Tend to also agree with LT, quite like hearing from the separate MPs over their own areas. 

Yeah I would like to see the PM fronting say one a week, for an overall update but not when in hospital or seriously ill (and not going to judge someone not attending, when he is in hospital/ill, unlike others)


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## rudebhoy (May 21, 2020)

DRW said:



*Bizarre, how can he be visible when in hospital or ill with the virus.*

Blimely think I will leave it at that, as don't really have anything to say or add, if you feel that he should be judged on his performance for the whole period.

Tend to also agree with LT, quite like hearing from the separate MPs over their own areas.

Yeah I would like to see the PM fronting say one a week, for an overall update but not when in hospital or seriously ill (and not going to judge someone not attending, when he is in hospital/ill, unlike others)
		
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where did I say that? if you look at the original post, I gave him a bye for the time he was out of action. But putting that time period aside, 4 appearances in the remaining 6-7 week is poor.

He does seem scared of tough questions. PMQs have been a nightmare for him, and remember him dodging Andrew Neil at the GE after every other leader had been on.


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## DRW (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			where did I say that? if you look at the original post, I gave him a bye for the time he was out of action. But putting that time period aside, 4 appearances in the remaining 6-7 week is poor.

He does seem scared of tough questions. PMQs have been a nightmare for him, and remember him dodging Andrew Neil at the GE after every other leader had been on.
		
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He went down with the virus on 27 March and back to work 27 April.

He would have been still ill even on the 27/4 and not 100%, probably still isn't.

You said he fronted it out 4 times in 8 weeks, then amended that to be 9 weeks 3 days and compared it to NS. When the facts show he was ill and in hospital for some, so a pointless 4 out of 8 weeks/9 weeks 3 days.

The rest is moving the subject onto areas, I am not interested in.

As I say I am no boris lover, but not blinded by that and do like the actual facts to be facts and not twisted, as the straight facts speak for themselves, which is why I posted.

I wish you well, have fun.


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## MegaSteve (May 21, 2020)

Having had Boris as my Mayor I can advise he has history of going AWOL when the going gets difficult...


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## larmen (May 21, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Having had Boris as my Mayor I can advise he has history of going AWOL when the going gets difficult...
		
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Social distancing from scrutiny;-)


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2020)

Anyone who is or has been ill should be given the care and then time to recover.

The Government should, imo, have put him to one side as soon as he was admitted to hospital so he could get on with looking after himself and get the care he needed.

At the time we were told he was still in charge and receiving briefings etc, afterwards we are told he was at deaths door.

Come on, it’s treating us like idiots!

The Country does not depend on one person and procedures that are in place should be activated sooner when our PM is seriously ill.

It is not right or fair that someone should continue to bare that responsibility when fighting for their life.

The above should be regardless of personality or political allegiance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Personally, I have no problem in various cabinet ministers giving briefings. Not only does it spread the load but it reduces the cult of the leader. Also *no bad thing for us to get familiar with all members of the cabinet rather than just 2 or 3 in the key posts*.
		
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Except it risks exposing any thinness of talent or lack of depth of experience that may exist in the cabinet 

I am happy that we don't see Hancock all the time - he does fine - but I get the feeling that he is shouldering too much of the burden; looks knackered, and seems to be getting rather stressed and tetchy at times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You certainly come over as not being able to listen to anyone from this government without prejudice. Now you've virtually admitted it.
I always thought it good practice  to listen to people without prejudice and then examine what was said and then make a conclusion.
		
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One might try but I suspect that some here would struggle to listen without prejudice to such as McCluskey, Sturgeon, Abbott or Corbyn...just saying


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The caretaker? Careful now -  I got criticised for suggesting that we were getting ministers from the 2nd 11.🙄 Though to be fair, as he was new to me he didn’t come with the dissembling baggage most come with and so I was able to listen to him (nearly) without any great prejudice 😊
		
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Selective AGAIN!

You got criticised for sticking the boot in before he took his second breath. And the same post that criticised you for doing it also said by all means do so after you’ve heard it all, if you still felt the same way.

Disappointing, but why am I surprised...


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

So the guy gets ill, needs oxygen in an ICU for several days additionally and, meanwhile, his partner gives birth. Even though several others guys who have survived being on assisted breathing after Covid19 are still very ill and some have needed to return to hospital: BM is expected be 100%.

The PM gets shot at for not doing a full days work - he's a politician and fair game for criticism but the personal nature of the 'pops' are all a bit shameful IMO.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except it risks exposing any thinness of talent or lack of depth of experience that may exist in the cabinet 

I am happy that we don't see Hancock all the time - he does fine - but I get the feeling that he is shouldering too much of the burden; looks knackered, and seems to be getting rather stressed and tetchy at times.
		
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The only way to get experience is to get out and do the job. If they are not up to it then they will soon get exposed and moved on.

In terms of Hancock, you can't have it both ways. If you want to ease his burden then it has to go on to his colleagues.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			So the guy gets ill, needs oxygen in an ICU for several days additionally and, meanwhile, his partner gives birth. Even though several others guys who have survived being on assisted breathing after Covid19 are still very ill and some have needed to return to hospital: BM is expected be 100%.

The PM gets shot at for not doing a full days work - he's a politician and fair game for criticism but the personal nature of the 'pops' are all a bit shameful IMO.
		
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Last time I looked the PM job was pretty substantial roll, you are either fit to do it or not.
To me he is not fit enough to carry on as PM and should step aside to let a fully fit colleague stand in until he recovers.
I doubt his ego would allow that though.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One might try but I suspect that some here would struggle to listen without prejudice to such as McCluskey, Sturgeon, Abbott or Corbyn...just saying 

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It would be interesting to see how well they would have managed in Boris’s place. It has been the most difficult time since Churchill for a prime minister and government.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It would be interesting to see how well they would have managed in Boris’s place. It has been the most difficult time since Churchill for a prime minister and government.
		
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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:





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Try not to be childish. If you disagree with my comment try a grown up response to it rather than continuing your personal agenda.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Try not to be childish. If you disagree with my comment try a grown up response to it rather than continuing your personal agenda.
		
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It was a genuine response, never read anything so funny on here!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Looks like Johnson is working today as I hear he has rejected calls to cancel the NHS charge immigrants working in the health and care sector have to pay.  And notwithstanding calls from conservatives that increases in tax to help pay for the coronavirus payments should be avoided - it seems to be OK to increase what is essentially a tax when the NHS charge is increased later this year.  Neat.  Well I shall be applauding with a clear conscience this evening.

But 'nice' that the government has now U-turned and decided that families of the lower paid immigrant workers in the NHS who die as a result of coronavirus can have indefinite leave to stay in the UK.  That our government ever thought that such a policy was anything but dubious makes you wonder - but I am afraid I wonder not a lot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It would be interesting to see how well they would have managed in Boris’s place. It has been the most difficult time since Churchill for a prime minister and government.
		
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I make the general comparison of listening without prejudice and not specifically in the context of the pandemic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Selective AGAIN!

You got criticised for sticking the boot in before he took his second breath. And the same post that criticised you for doing it also said by all means do so after you’ve heard it all, if you still felt the same way.

Disappointing, but why am I surprised...
		
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No I didn't Brian - I simply said that I didn't know him.  

As the cabinet comprises the PM plus 21 ministers, and given he has a lower profile than many and not sure he has done a briefing previously, I suggest it is not _completely _unfair to suggest that he is a member of the 2nd Eleven - but OK - on this occasion he got a run-out for the 1st Eleven   And I thought he made a reasonable fist of his opportunity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The only way to get experience is to get out and do the job. If they are not up to it then they will soon get exposed and moved on.

In terms of Hancock, you can't have it both ways. If you want to ease his burden then it has to go on to his colleagues.
		
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Indeed.  I would prefer to have one of Sunak, Hancock or the PM for each briefing.  Maybe we need to see Rees-Mogg taking his turn.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I didn't Brian - I simply said that I didn't know him. 

As the cabinet comprises the PM plus 21 ministers, and given he has a lower profile than many and not sure he has done a briefing previously, I suggest it is not _completely _unfair to suggest that he is a member of the 2nd Eleven - but OK - on this occasion he got a run-out for the 1st Eleven   And I thought he made a reasonable fist of his opportunity.
		
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Really, simply said? Have a read back of your post, specifically the fealty comment.

As for sacking previous ministers, every manager/director/CEO/MD, and PM “builds” their own team around them. It’s as natural a consequence as breathing. It’s called “forming, storming, norming and reforming.” Why would any manager do any differently, why butt heads when you want to get things done? And it’s not about yes men, it’s about like minded men.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed.  I would prefer to have one of Sunak, Hancock or the PM for each briefing.  Maybe we need to see Rees-Mogg taking his turn.
		
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I’d much prefer a senior Cabinet Member but accept that sometimes some of them are busy, e.g. the PM and Hancock were at PMQ’s yesterday.

No sign of Priti since her last briefing a while back

As an aside, did you see the Speaker give Hancock a good slap down, basically saying shut up or leave the house?


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looks like Johnson is working today as I hear he has rejected calls to cancel the NHS charge immigrants working in the health and care sector have to pay.  And notwithstanding calls from conservatives that increases in tax to help pay for the coronavirus payments should be avoided - it seems to be OK to increase what is essentially a tax when the NHS charge is increased later this year.  Neat.  Well I shall be applauding with a clear conscience this evening.

But 'nice' that the government has now U-turned and decided that families of the lower paid immigrant workers in the NHS who die as a result of coronavirus can have indefinite leave to stay in the UK.  That our government ever thought that such a policy was anything but dubious makes you wonder - but I am afraid I wonder not a lot.
		
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So pragmatically, in foreign policy where would you draw the line that is fair and manageable:- Oxford researchers, Asta Zenica, Army, etc etc all people putting their shoulders to the wheel to support the NHS. Perhaps not in hospitals/Care Homes but never-the-less the whole 'chain' needs to function for the 'front end' to work.

Policy and regulation based on emotion and kneejerk reactions are rarely prudent.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Sadly he was always unfit to be PM.
		
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You may say that, but I could not possibly comment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			So pragmatically, in foreign policy where would you draw the line that is fair and manageable:- Oxford researchers, Asta Zenica, Army, etc etc all people putting their shoulders to the wheel to support the NHS. Perhaps not in hospitals/Care Homes but never-the-less the whole 'chain' needs to function for the 'front end' to work.

Policy and regulation based on emotion and kneejerk reactions are rarely prudent.
		
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Do they work in the UK and do they pay tax and NI?  And the proposed increase which will make the charge for many on the minimum wage equivalent to about 2 weeks work.

Government will be cursing the Syrian guy working as a porter who posted a video about the differentiation over a families right of residency after a death in service NHS/Care between the poorest paid in the NHS/Care and those earning a bit more.  I suppose this does chime with Patel's immigration policy 'minimum income requirement'


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The caretaker? Careful now -  I got criticised for suggesting that we were getting ministers from the 2nd 11.🙄 Though to be fair, as he was new to me he didn’t come with the dissembling baggage most come with and so I was able to listen to him (nearly) without any great prejudice 😊
		
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You were asked why you thought the professor and the minister was second team - something you still have refused to answer.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One might try but I suspect that some here would struggle to listen without prejudice to such as McCluskey, Sturgeon, Abbott or Corbyn...just saying 

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Maybe there is so little talent in the SNP she has to be the main front man. Although unless the count on her appearances was before the weekend it's wrong as on several occasions I believe the health minister has stepped in on a couple of occasions and I haven't watched every one of scotlands briefs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You were asked why you thought the professor and the minister was second team - something you still have refused to answer.
		
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Quite simply - I prefer Prof Van-Tam; Dame Angela Mclean and Prof Jenny Harries as all three tend to say it more 'as it is' compared with Stephen Powis - and I prefer that - I think they do it better than Powis.  And I think I've explained why I suggested that Dowden might not be a member of the Cabinet '1st Team'.  Kind of obvious really as I am not aware that he has done very many briefings in seven weeks - then again neither has the PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Maybe there is so little talent in the SNP she has to be the main front man. Although unless the count on her appearances was before the weekend it's wrong as on several occasions I believe the health minister has stepped in on a couple of occasions and I haven't watched every one of scotlands briefs.
		
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Maybe they keep Johnson away from doing the briefings as much as possible as his advisors don't want him to be held accountable for something he might say (deliberately or by mistake) at a briefing - easy game to play that 

It's a view held in the US where sensible Republicans were wishing that Trump would just stop leading the briefings - well that rather happened as they basically stopped doing them...

Anyway - good to see Johnson changing his mind under pressure from Starmer and the Daily Mail on the NHS charge immigrants working in the NHS were having to pay.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...revolt-NHS-charge-foreign-health-workers.html


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe they keep Johnson away from doing the briefings as much as possible as his advisors don't want him to be held accountable for something he might say (deliberately or by mistake) at a briefing - easy game to play that 

It's a view held in the US where sensible Republicans were wishing that Trump would just stop leading the briefings - well that rather happened as they basically stopped doing them...
		
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You reply to a comment about the possibility of lack of talent in the SNP and you go on about the PM, I presume then you have nothing to say about the SNPs lack of talent.

Tell me what qualifications you have to question the good professor and his qualifications and gives you the knowledge to put him in the second team. Your preferences shouldn't come into it when it comes to ability.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You reply to a comment about the possibility of lack of talent in the SNP and you go on about the PM, I presume then you have nothing to say about the SNPs lack of talent.

Tell me what qualifications you have to question the good professor and his qualifications and gives you the knowledge to put him in the second team. Your preferences shouldn't come into it when it comes to ability.
		
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you might be right about the lack of talent in the SNP, but to give Nicola her due she speaks well and the big advantage she has over Boris is she appears to be able to read a pre prep speech or auto que and as yet not prom things she can't deliver or don't even exist


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You reply to a comment about the possibility of lack of talent in the SNP and you go on about the PM, I presume then you have nothing to say about the SNPs lack of talent.

Tell me what qualifications you have to question the good professor and his qualifications and gives you the knowledge to put him in the second team. Your preferences shouldn't come into it when it comes to ability.
		
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This is a thread about Johnson.  And of course I am not assessing the qualifications of anyone.  Just mentioning my favourites (not forgetting - which I did - Prof Whitty).  In the same way as I have my idea of the best and my favourite professional golfers though I have absolutely no qualifications for making such assessments.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you might be right about the lack of talent in the SNP, but to give Nicola her due she speaks well and the big advantage she has over Boris is she appears to be able to read a pre prep speech or auto que and as yet not prom things she can't deliver or don't even exist

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I have said all along she has conducted herself well in her briefings.  Not sure she has promised anything yet. Shes outlined a plan with no specific detail (just like PM did), the difference being , the PM was jumped all over.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is a thread about Johnson.  And of course I am not assessing the qualifications of anyone.  Just mentioning my favourites (not forgetting - which I did - Prof Whitty).  In the same way as I have my idea of the best and my favourite professional golfers though I have absolutely no qualifications for making such assessments.
		
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Your remark suggested he had a lack of ability. 

So your defence of the SNPs lack of ability is that this is a Johnson thread. One to remember.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have said all along she has conducted herself well in her briefings.  Not sure she has promised anything yet. Shes outlined a plan with no specific detail (just like PM did), the difference being , the PM was jumped all over.
		
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i supect she's not been jumped over because nothing to be anounced till next thursday so no one can accuse her of jumping the gun.

no one is any the wiser other than there might be some easing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your remark suggested he had a lack of ability.

So your defence of the SNPs lack of ability is that this is a Johnson thread. One to remember.
		
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I have no idea of the capability of the SNP government much wider than the First Minister's Briefings as I do not live in Scotland under an SNP government, and so cannot comment on whether they are pretty good or quite rubbish.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have no idea of the capability of the SNP government much wider than the First Minister's Briefings as I do not live in Scotland under an SNP government, and so cannot comment on whether they are pretty good or quite rubbish.
		
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Truly you have surpassed yourself!

You cannot comment on Ms Sturgeon and her party's performance as you do not live in Scotland. 

Yet you seem quite content to regularly attack and denounce the  President of the United States. 

Did I miss something,  have you moved from Surrey to St Louis?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Truly you have surpassed yourself!

You cannot comment on Ms Sturgeon and her party's performance as you do not live in Scotland.

Yet you seem quite content to regularly attack and denounce the  President of the United States.

Did I miss something,  have you moved from Surrey to St Louis?
		
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As I can watch and listen to the First Minister lead Scottish Coronavirus briefings - I can watch and listen to Trump as he leads briefings and cabinet meetings - and simply on the basis of these briefings and meetings it is very apparent that he is an vile imbecile.  I have no idea what his GoP government is like and, as for the SNP, I cannot and do not comment on whether they are competent or not.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I can watch and listen to the First Minister lead Scottish Coronavirus briefings - I can watch and listen to Trump as he leads briefings and cabinet meetings - and simply on the basis of these briefings and meetings it is very apparent that he is an vile imbecile.  I have no idea what his GoP government is like and, as for the SNP, I cannot and do not comment on whether they are competent or not.
		
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No opinion then, you usually have an opinion on many things but the SNP is off limits, I wonder why.


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## Wolf (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I can watch and listen to the First Minister lead Scottish Coronavirus briefings - I can watch and listen to Trump as he leads briefings and cabinet meetings - and simply on the basis of these briefings and meetings it is very apparent that he is an vile imbecile.  I have no idea what his GoP government is like and, as for the SNP, I cannot and do not comment on whether they are competent or not.
		
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So you can see Trump is vile from his briefings on tv, but cannot possibly comment on Sturgeon and SNP through the same media because you don't live there.. 

You literally are a walking contradiction, it seems more apparent if you dislike someone or don't have the same political leanings you will pass negative opinion regardless before anything has been said.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No opinion then, you usually have an opinion on many things but the SNP is off limits, I wonder why.
		
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maybe his barber dosn't know anything about the SNP?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I can watch and listen to the First Minister lead Scottish Coronavirus briefings - I can watch and listen to Trump as he leads briefings and cabinet meetings - and simply on the basis of these briefings and meetings it is very apparent that he is an vile imbecile.  I have no idea what his GoP government is like and, as for the SNP, I cannot and do not comment on whether they are competent or not.
		
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I despair of Trump as much as anyone on here.

However, your explanation does nothing more than confirm your double standards.

You are no more qualified to comment on Trump's deficiencies than you are on Sturgeon but what is good for the goose is equally good for the gender.

Or are you simply afraid of upsetting DfT.


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## Wolf (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			maybe his barber dosn't know anything about the SNP?
		
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Wasn't he French, perhaps he's still on the boat 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I despair of Trump as much as anyone on here.

However, your explanation does nothing more than confirm your double standards.

You are no more qualified to comment on Trump's deficiencies than you are on Sturgeon but what is good for the goose is equally good for the gender.

Or are you simply afraid of upsetting DfT.
		
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TBF though thats no different to plenty of others on here, so cut the guys some slack


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			TBF though thats no different to plenty of others on here, so cut the guys some slack

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True but it really was the most amazing display of double standards. 

But I don't want to labour the point so I agree, let's move on. 👍


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## Foxholer (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			...
You are no more qualified to comment on Trump's deficiencies than you are on Sturgeon but what is good for the goose is equally good for the *gender*.
...
		
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Freudian slip? 

Btw, while I agree with your 'no more qualified' comment, I'd suggest 'no less qualified' is also appropriate also!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Freudian slip? 

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That's predictive text for you!🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I despair of Trump as much as anyone on here.

However, your explanation does nothing more than confirm your double standards.

You are no more qualified to comment on Trump's deficiencies than you are on Sturgeon but what is good for the goose is equally good for the gender.

Or are you simply afraid of upsetting DfT.
		
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 Careful, or I shall send Big Wullie and the boys over to give you a good dooing.

Another SILH pile on by folk who don't like people having a different view of politics/life than themselves. same old same old.
When it comes to double standards there are a few on here miles ahead of Hogan.
The Laura Kunesberg /BBC crew for a start. She is splendid when she has a go at the Scottish Government but how very dare she speak out against the darling boy Boris.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



 Careful, or I shall send Big Wullie and the boys over to give you a good dooing.

Another SILH pile on by folk who don't like people having a different view of politics/life than themselves. same old same old.
When it comes to double standards there are a few on here miles ahead of Hogan.
The Laura Kunesberg /BBC crew for a start. She is splendid when she has a go at the Scottish Government but how very dare she speak out against the darling boy Boris.
		
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Be fair, you're not too shabby at the double standards yourself. 

Quick to rightly criticise Johnson for Westminster's shortcomings in dealing with this crisis but seemingly happy to overlook Sturgeon's similar failings resulting in a care home crisis in Scotland.


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



 Careful, or I shall send Big Wullie and the boys over to give you a good dooing.

Another SILH pile on by folk who don't like people having a different view of politics/life than themselves. same old same old.
*When it comes to double standards there are a few on here miles ahead of Hogan.
The Laura Kunesberg /BBC crew for a start*. She is splendid when she has a go at the Scottish Government but how very dare she speak out against the darling boy Boris.
		
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I didn't know she was a forum member. What's her username?


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I didn't know she was a forum member. What's her username? 

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Doon Frae Kune.


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Be fair, you're not too shabby at the double standards yourself.

Quick to rightly criticise Johnson for Westminster's shortcomings in dealing with this crisis but seemingly happy to overlook Sturgeon's similar failings resulting in a care home crisis in Scotland.
		
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You need to realise everyone can get behind a common threat/foe.The hate of anything English means NS can ride forward uncriticised against the dastardly Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Be fair, you're not too shabby at the double standards yourself.

Quick to rightly criticise Johnson for Westminster's shortcomings in dealing with this crisis but seemingly happy to overlook Sturgeon's similar failings resulting in a care home crisis in Scotland.
		
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I cannot believe you posted that last line, how terribly insensitive of you.


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## User62651 (May 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			You need to realise everyone can get behind a common threat/foe.*The hate of anything English means NS can ride forward uncriticised* against the dastardly Westminster.
		
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Very annoying and childish comment to read and I suspect just trolling but I'll bite.
By your reckoning 45-50% of the voting electorate up here hate anything English if they agree with Sturgeon on politics, plainly ridiculous. Same as saying the 52% of UK electorate who voted to leave the EU hate anything European, very silly thing to say, clearly untrue and something I'm sure you would refute strongly.

Sturgeon for her faults at least regulalry does UK based tv interviews like earlier today on GMB and is open enough with her political agenda. Where is Johnson? Invisible. Daily coronavirus briefings to date - Sturgeon 56, Johnson 4.

Political and personal views are very very different things. Look at Pierce and Maguire - a great double act but couldn't agree on anything political, poles apart, still great friends though.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Sturgeon for her faults at least regulalry does UK based tv interviews like earlier today on GMB and is open enough with her political agenda. Where is Johnson? Invisible. Daily coronavirus briefings to date - Sturgeon 56, Johnson 4.
		
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Maybe he has the skill to delegate.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe he has the skill to delegate.
		
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Maybe he has the people of the right caliber to delegate to.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Maybe he's been told he comes across as a total pillock and advised to avoid it at all costs.


(Fun game this  )
		
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Does seem to have an inability to get his brain and mouth in sink.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Maybe he's been told he comes across as a total pillock and advised to avoid it at all costs.


(Fun game this  )
		
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Maybe  she just loves the attention.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

With no sport on the tv this is like watching a game of tennis. Come on Kaz, the ball is on your side of the net?

If this is not a R4 show already it soon could be


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I despair of Trump as much as anyone on here.

However, your explanation does nothing more than confirm your double standards.

You are no more qualified to comment on Trump's deficiencies than you are on Sturgeon but what is good for the goose is equally good for the gender.

Or are you simply afraid of upsetting DfT.
		
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Sorry - I don't get the double standards.  I can only see Trump and Sturgeon on TV - I can only watch and listen to what they say in briefings; in US cabinet meetings; in the Scottish Parliament etc.  I cannot make any judgement on the quality their government or of those working in government for Trump or Sturgeon and I don't.  But I _can _make observations on what I hear from Trump and Sturgeon - and whatever I might think of what I hear from Sturgeon, she does not spout blatant lies and bile at all and sundry who oppose or crticise her - others might - she doesn't.  But Trump does - blatantly and seemingly without shame (apparently Trump's blatant lie count since inauguration is currently over 17,000).

And so back to Johnson and the government - my 'sense' from the briefings is that there is not a massive amount of high quality politician beyond the principal officers of state (indeed that may well apply for Sturgeon's top flight - we don't get to see and hear them).   That might not matter too much were Johnson providing the leadership that delegation requires, but again I am not sensing too much of that in his briefings and performances in PMQs.  Anyway...we have the government we voted for and which we are stuck with for four plus years to come.  And that's just how it is and so I must simple 'suck it up'.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I cannot believe you posted that last line, how terribly astute of you.

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More like it !


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Maybe he's been told he comes across as a total pillock and advised to avoid it at all costs.


(Fun game this  )
		
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That never worked out well for many Ministers in his first cabinet.


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Does seem to have an inability to get his brain and mouth in sink.
		
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That just smack of twaddle-de-gook  must not forget the plethora of !!!!!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Maybe it's Maybelline!
		
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Blimey Kaz, I haven't heard that one in years!

Although with modern TV it's much easier to avoid the adverts.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I don't get the double standards.  I can only see Trump and Sturgeon on TV - I can only watch and listen to what they say in briefings; in US cabinet meetings; in the Scottish Parliament etc.  I cannot make any judgement on the quality their government or of those working in government for Trump or Sturgeon and I don't.  But I _can _make observations on what I hear from Trump and Sturgeon - and whatever I might think of what I hear from Sturgeon, she does not spout blatant lies and bile at all and sundry who oppose or crticise her - others might - she doesn't.  But Trump does - blatantly and seemingly without shame (apparently Trump's blatant lie count since inauguration is currently over 17,000).

And so back to Johnson and the government - my 'sense' from the briefings is that there is not a massive amount of high quality politician beyond the principal officers of state (indeed that may well apply for Sturgeon's top flight - we don't get to see and hear them).   That might not matter too much were Johnson providing the leadership that delegation requires, but again I am not sensing too much of that in his briefings and performances in PMQs.  Anyway...we have the government we voted for and which we are stuck with for four plus years to come.  And that's just how it is and so I must simple 'suck it up'.
		
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Perhaps best to just try a period of "No comment" then.

Can't be accused of double standards that way.

As for  PMQ"s the overall consensus seems to be that this week's episode resulted in a victory for Johnson as Starmer was guilty of lack of research and, thus, killer questions. 

Early days for complacency on his part I would have thought.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Perhaps best to just try a period of "No comment" then.

Can't be accused of double standards that way.

As for  PMQ"s the overall consensus seems to be that this week's episode resulted in a victory for Johnson as Starmer was guilty of lack of research and, thus, killer questions.

Early days for complacency on his part I would have thought.
		
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Was that the one where he attempted to defend the NHS surcharge on NHS workers from overseas, only to cave in on it 24 hours later?

The account I read said he had obviously done some prep for a change, and the result was better than the last 2 humiliating knockouts, but was still overwhelmingly beaten on points.

I guess we don't read the same newspapers.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Was that the one where he attempted to defend the NHS surcharge on NHS workers from overseas, only to cave in on it 24 hours later?

The account I read said he had obviously done some prep for a change, and the result was better than the last 2 humiliating knockouts, but was still overwhelmingly beaten on points.

I guess we don't read the same newspapers.
		
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I read several.

Like many others I  am no Boris fanboy and my comment is in fact directed at Starmer.

After two  excellent performances at PMQ's I felt he clearly came  across this week  as complacent and smug.

The nature of Johnson's performance definitely flustered him as his follow ups showed

This is often a  problem for those from  a courtroom background. They tend to anticipate the reply and can get confused when the  witness goes off script.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Am increasingly wondering how deliberate Bojos continually absence is. Am prepared to cut him some slack as he was struck down with it. Then there was the birth of his 5th/6th/7th child (delete as appropriate). But it's as if he wants to distance himself from our, at very best, distinctly average response to this crisis. 

Still, as soon as the R number is rapidly going down and we finally have caught up with many other countries with regard to test, track and trace, I'm sure he'll be back.


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## pendodave (May 23, 2020)

Hmmm



Hacker Khan said:



			Am increasingly wondering how deliberate Bojos continually absence is. Am prepared to cut him some slack as he was struck down with it. Then there was the birth of his 5th/6th/7th child (delete as appropriate). But it's as if he wants to distance himself from our, at very best, distinctly average response to this crisis. 

Still, as soon as the R number is rapidly going down and we finally have caught up with many other countries with regard to test, track and trace, I'm sure he'll be back.
		
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Hmmm. I'm not sure. At that point there will be several million unemployed and the realisation that our economy might take years to get functioning again. 
Not a particular good news message he'll be wanting to associate himself with. 
Given that the cabinet has shown itself to be as underwhelming as expected, I am curious who will be next cab on the rank. Gove? Someone currently exiled to the back benches?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2020)

Interesting that it seems Labour voters are closer to Conservative MPs than Labour MPs on some topics.  And voters and MPs seem to be a distance away from each other for both parties on some issues.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2020)

Then on economics Labour seem to be mostly aligned where as their is more difference in conservatives, with MPs being the most 'right' of the lot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

Good to see photos of Johnson doing press-ups (eh?)...maybe he should now be focussing on getting his party more aligned with itself.

I guess the photos are intended to dispel myths that having a new child makes you knackered...as perhaps he has been looking of late...just a little 

Interesting charts re Labour and Conservative voters and members and how close they are to their parliamentary representatives.


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good to see photos of Johnson doing press-ups (eh?)...maybe he should now be focussing on getting his party more aligned with itself.

I guess the photos are intended to dispel myths that having a new child makes you knackered...as perhaps he has been looking of late...just a little 

Interesting charts re Labour and Conservative voters and members and how close they are to their parliamentary representatives.
		
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Just perhaps his virus infection was a bit of a wake-up call and he is trying to improve his fitness.

While I recognise you dislike and rightly want to challenge his politics, but is it really necessary to keep on with the personal attacks?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Just perhaps his virus infection was a bit of a wake-up call and he is trying to improve his fitness.

While I recognise you dislike and rightly want to challenge his politics, but is it really necessary to keep on with the personal attacks?
		
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Quite honestly - Yes - for as long his deceits and self-serving words, actions and politics merit it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



*Just perhaps his virus infection was a bit of a wake-up call and he is trying to improve his fitness.*

While I recognise you dislike and rightly want to challenge his politics, but is it really necessary to keep on with the personal attacks?
		
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Eye, and perhaps Putin was practicing his dressage moves when photographers mysteriously appeared out of nowhere...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



*Just perhaps his virus infection was a bit of a wake-up call and he is trying to improve his fitness.*

While I recognise you dislike and rightly want to challenge his politics, but is it really necessary to keep on with the personal attacks?
		
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Wasn't it set up to show that he was now fully recovered from the virus and was no longer suffering from the after effects?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite honestly - Yes - for as long his deceits and self-serving words, actions and politics merit it.
		
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What about using the play the post not the poster rule from the forum? You can attack his policies and words without sinking to the level of personal attacks on the man himself. Plenty left to criticise about him without getting personal.


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## pendodave (Jun 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting that it seems Labour voters are closer to Conservative MPs than Labour MPs on some topics.  And voters and MPs seem to be a distance away from each other for both parties on some issues.

View attachment 31402

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This is interesting, and perhaps explains why the Conservatives keep getting elected. (Not intended as a pejorative statement, more a reflection of the task facing Starmer).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about using the play the post not the *poster* rule from the forum? You can attack his policies and words without sinking to the level of personal attacks on the man himself. Plenty left to criticise about him without getting personal.
		
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I doubt the PM posts on here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about using the play the post not the poster rule from the forum? You can attack his policies and words without sinking to the level of personal attacks on the man himself. Plenty left to criticise about him without getting personal.
		
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Which bit of him being a proven deceitful charlatan is out of bounds...and we know that he is self-serving as, for example, he only chose between Leave and Remain when he decided which route would best serve his own ends.   I consider it perfectly acceptable to call someone out for what I consider deceits and lies when these deceits and lies impact the lives of others to the poorer.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 29, 2020)

This to replace pmq's  😂

https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir...es-boris-johnson-to-press-up-contest-12017471


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## howbow88 (Jun 29, 2020)

I bumped into Keir Starmer in December, and I would probably stick my money on him. He had a sort of Westwood physique - big, but kind of strong looking.


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which bit of him being a proven deceitful charlatan is out of bounds...and we know that he is self-serving as, for example, he only chose between Leave and Remain when he decided which route would best serve his own ends.   I consider it perfectly acceptable to call someone out for what I consider deceits and lies when these deceits and lies impact the lives of others to the poorer.
		
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Can't disagree with much of that Hugh.

Here's a thought. In America they have a President that originally wanted to be put forward by one party but when that didn't happen he jumped buses to the other party to satisfy his own personal ambitions. In the UK there is a Prime Minister who was a Remainer but jumped to being a Leaver to satisfy his own ambitions. In America they have a President who lies and fires off incendiary media messages. And in the UK there's a Prime Minister, sacked from a high profile job for lying and not afraid to fire off "letter box" racist comments. In America they have a President who doesn't seem capable of grasping the depth of situations, and the UK has a govt led by someone that doesn't seem capable of strong leadership in times of crisis.

Earlier in the thread I've called Boris Trump-lite. I've not seen much to change that view.

In the UK so many people see Trump for what he is, a dangerous liar and bully yet so many of those people can't see the same in Boris. The lazy lies, the incendiary newspaper articles he penned. The backstabbing his way to the top and, at times, a leadership that seems lacking in detail and substance.

Thankfully the UK's system of govt means it isn't quite the politics by personality that the US enjoys but it is worrying to see that someone of Johnson's character can make it to the top. But let's not conflate supporting a party to supporting its leader. The run up to the last election saw voters leaving Labour because of a distrust in Corbyn. Lets just hope that if the Tories do win another term it isn't with Trump-lite at the helm.


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## howbow88 (Jun 30, 2020)

Whilst I think that is a great post, I also think we are very much are about personality politics in this country now. I just couldn't see either party put in charge someone like John Smith, or William Hague these days - their _images_ don't work for a big PR campaign. 

In terms of recent history though; May was a poor PM, but her general election was an utter disaster. Johnson was up against the exact same leader of the opposition, and blew him away. 

What I find odd about the Johnson popularity is the fact that he is a proven liar, but no one seems to care too much about it. If you had a guy like that working for you, you would try and get rid of them asap.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Whilst I think that is a great post, I also think we are very much are about personality politics in this country now. I just couldn't see either party put in charge someone like John Smith, or William Hague these days - their _images_ don't work for a big PR campaign.

In terms of recent history though; May was a poor PM, but her general election was an utter disaster. Johnson was up against the exact same leader of the opposition, and blew him away.

*What I find odd about the Johnson popularity is the fact that he is a proven liar, but no one seems to care too much about it. *If you had a guy like that working for you, you would try and get rid of them asap.
		
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For whatever reason people seem less bothered about that kind of thing nowadays, especially if he is 'one of yours' .  I think it is very similar to supporting a football team, one of your players uses their guile to deceive the ref and it's fine as that's part of the game. One of the players for your rivals does it and he's a dirty cheating *&%£*&$£* Same in politics. And the politicians know it and then keep pushing it until you end up with Trump. And the frightening thing is that if this continues, in 10 years time we may look back on the Trump era as relatively measured and coherent.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2020)

May took Gove apart in the Commons re the new non secure Security supremo.
She was quite magnificent


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

All this 'Boris is a liar' 'Boris is a charlitain'  talk is getting boring and really plays the game the users readily accuse others of doing by deflecting the issue away from current politics. It's like kids in a school yard.  There are some on this forum who appear to suffer from an acute form of Boris/Tory paranoia to a level they seem deficient of any balance in their views.  I have been critical of Corbyn's politics but I've not used his personal life as a lever to attack him.  What's even worse is that much of it suggests that the general public are so stupid they dont understand what they're voting for anymore.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2020)

Sick burn from TMay.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277932346797416448


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Whilst I think that is a great post, I also think we are very much are about personality politics in this country now. I just couldn't see either party put in charge someone like John Smith, or William Hague these days - their _images_ don't work for a big PR campaign.

In terms of recent history though; May was a poor PM, but her general election was an utter disaster. Johnson was up against the exact same leader of the opposition, and blew him away.

What I find odd about the Johnson popularity is the fact that he is a proven liar, but no one seems to care too much about it. If you had a guy like that working for you, you would try and get rid of them asap.
		
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Johnson got just over 300,000 more voted than TM, he didn’t blow Corbyn away, Corbyn lost over 2.5 million votes, were did those votes go, they certainly didn’t go to Boris, the voter in the middle could no more vote for boris than they could Corbyn and that’s were the 80 seat majority comes from.

He’s a proven known liar and that will never change, all he cares about is himself.


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Whilst I think that is a great post, I also think we are very much are about personality politics in this country now. I just couldn't see either party put in charge someone like John Smith, or William Hague these days - their _images_ don't work for a big PR campaign.

In terms of recent history though; May was a poor PM, but her general election was an utter disaster. Johnson was up against the exact same leader of the opposition, and blew him away.

What I find odd about the Johnson popularity is the fact that he is a proven liar, but no one seems to care too much about it. If you had a guy like that working for you, you would try and get rid of them asap.
		
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In the main, Johnson won, or Corbyn lost, on the Brexit issue. There were periphery issues, like antisemitism and Labour's unbelievable spending promises but the election was, to a large extent, a second Brexit referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			All this 'Boris is a liar' 'Boris is a charlitain'  talk is getting boring and really plays the game the users readily accuse others of doing by deflecting the issue away from current politics. It's like kids in a school yard.  There are some on this forum who appear to suffer from an acute form of Boris/Tory paranoia to a level they seem deficient of any balance in their views.  I have been critical of Corbyn's politics but I've not used his personal life as a lever to attack him.  What's even worse is that much of it suggests that the general public are so stupid they dont understand what they're voting for anymore.
		
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That some might find it boring does not make it less true and less relevant to every word that he utters today.  It is not the politics of the school yard - it is calling truth to power - and calling out when those in power speak to deceive - and that is as necessary today - if not *more *necessary - in the crisis of today.   Those getting 'bored' might be OK with choosing to forget the past - but I, for one, am not OK.

And as far as suggesting that somehow those who criticise Johnson are much the same group as those who call the public stupid - I don't think so...in fact it is simply not so (see criticisms and accusations of stupidity levelled at those breaching lockdown guidelines and we will find that they are not just those critical of Johnson).

Even today Johnson can't find room in his speech to admit failings on his and his government's part.  Instead it is all praise for how great we've all done...For goodness sake - look at the death toll - try and understand and just admit where you got it wrong.


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That some might find it boring does not make it less true and less relevant to every word that he utters today.  It is not the politics of the school yard - it is calling truth to power - and calling out when those in power speak to deceive - and that is as necessary today - if not *more *necessary - in the crisis of today.   Those getting 'bored' might be OK with choosing to forget the past - but I, for one, am not OK.

And as far as suggesting that somehow those who criticise Johnson are much the same group as those who call the public stupid - I don't think so...in fact it is simply not so (see criticisms and accusations of stupidity levelled at those breaching lockdown guidelines and we will find that they are not just those critical of Johnson).

Even today Johnson can't find room in his speech to admit failings on his and his government's part.  Instead it is all praise for how great we've all done...For goodness sake - look at the death toll - try and understand and just admit where you got it wrong.
		
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I guess if you want to talk about the truth you ought to listen openly rather than selectively.

There were several statements in his speech were he apologised for some of the stuff that was wrong and stated lessons would be learnt.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That some might find it boring does not make it less true and less relevant to every word that he utters today.  It is not the politics of the school yard - it is calling truth to power - and calling out when those in power speak to deceive - and that is as necessary today - if not *more *necessary - in the crisis of today.   Those getting 'bored' might be OK with choosing to forget the past - but I, for one, am not OK.

And as far as suggesting that somehow those who criticise Johnson are much the same group as those who call the public stupid - I don't think so...in fact it is simply not so (see criticisms and accusations of stupidity levelled at those breaching lockdown guidelines and we will find that they are not just those critical of Johnson).

Even today Johnson can't find room in his speech to admit failings on his and his government's part.  Instead it is all praise for how great we've all done...For goodness sake - look at the death toll - try and understand and just admit where you got it wrong.
		
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Thanks for the confirmation 🤛


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## chrisd (Jun 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			I guess if you want to talk about the truth you ought to listen openly rather than selectively.

There were several statements in his speech were he apologised for some of the stuff that was wrong and stated lessons would be learnt.
		
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Let's not let the truth get in the way of one of Hogans daily anti Boris/Conservatives/Brexit rants. Obviously running the country during a pandemic is easy and Boris is personally responsible for each and every death/mistake/decision and he needs to personally apologise for his mistakes.


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## howbow88 (Jun 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Johnson got just over 300,000 more voted than TM, he didn’t blow Corbyn away, Corbyn lost over 2.5 million votes, were did those votes go, they certainly didn’t go to Boris, the voter in the middle could no more vote for boris than they could Corbyn and that’s were the 80 seat majority comes from.

He’s a proven known liar and that will never change, all he cares about is himself.
		
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Interesting way of looking at it, but the Conservatives gained 48 seats and Labour lost 60.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Interesting way of looking at it, but the Conservatives gained 48 seats and Labour lost 60.
		
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Absolutely, Labour got stuffed, I just don’t believe it was down to boris’s character.

People go on about the ground Labour has to make up, if (and it’s a big if) Labour can win back 2 million of their own voters back and no tory votes it leaves boris in a difficult position, he has to convince tories who voted for TM to vote for him.

Would of been a totally different picture if boris had kept the votes TM got plus the 2.5 million from Labour, but he didn’t, he, in theory, was less popular than TM if you discount the so called “Red Wall” votes he won over.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2020)

Today’s Speech fact checked.

https://www.bbc.com/news/53236921


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

I'm not convinced infastructure building is a good way to restart the economy, it can give a boost to the building sector and provide some new housing, schools and hospitals but will not really provide the basis for growth and longer term employment. We do need to improve our infrastructure but IMO investment towards a more self sufficient economy would be better.

http://www.aeroponicinvestment.com/news/can-the-uk-ever-be-food-self-sufficient/


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2020)

I hope the Build Build Build builders put their joists in straighter than the Build Build Build sticker on Johnson's podium.


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## pendodave (Jun 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not convinced infastructure building is a good way to restart the economy, it can give a boost to the building sector and provide some new housing, schools and hospitals but will not really provide the basis for growth and longer term employment. We do need to improve our infrastructure but IMO investment towards a more self sufficient economy would be better.

http://www.aeroponicinvestment.com/news/can-the-uk-ever-be-food-self-sufficient/

Click to expand...

You are correct, but I suspect an analysis of the political contributions of the major infrastructure and building companies will provide all the answers you need... #followthemoney


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Even today Johnson can't find room in his speech to admit failings on his and his government's part.  Instead it is all praise for how great we've all done...For goodness sake - look at the death toll - try and understand and just admit where you got it wrong.
		
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Perhaps you need to listen closer. There were times when he apologised for mistakes and talked about lessons being learned instead of being selective to suit your agenda of the day


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not convinced infastructure building is a good way to restart the economy, it can give a boost to the building sector and provide some new housing, schools and hospitals but will not really provide the basis for growth and longer term employment. We do need to improve our infrastructure but IMO investment in a more self sufficient economy would be better.
		
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I'd note that our infrastructure is largely unfit for the future; poor railways, out-of-date traffic management in towns, rubbish public transport. Housing stock is poor and energy inefficient.
Large number of hospitals, schools etc are not fit for purpose. UK communications capabilities/bandwidth are way behind the times.
The UK cannot compete in conventional manufacturing with low wage and distorted exchange rates.

These 'projects' take years to get completed so the Government is using the example of the Nightingale Hospitals to give insight as to how the whole project life cycles can be condensed.

Global interest rates are low and we desperately need to modernise after years resting/milking the investments made 100+ years ago otherwise the UK will be behind the curve in future competitiveness. There is not enough wealth (money circulation/velocity) in a 'self sufficient' based British economy to support ~70m people on the small geographical area of the UK so we must drag money in from other countries as we have no significant geological assets.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd note that our infrastructure is largely unfit for the future; poor railways, out-of-date traffic management in towns, rubbish public transport. Housing stock is poor and energy inefficient.
Large number of hospitals, schools etc are not fit for purpose. UK communications capabilities/bandwidth are way behind the times.
The UK cannot compete in conventional manufacturing with low wage and distorted exchange rates.

These 'projects' take years to get completed so the Government is using the example of the Nightingale Hospitals to give insight as to how the whole project life cycles can be condensed.

Global interest rates are low and we desperately need to modernise after years resting/milking the investments made 100+ years ago otherwise the UK will be behind the curve in future competitiveness. There is not enough wealth (money circulation/velocity) in a 'self sufficient' based British economy to support ~70m people on the small geographical area of the UK so we must drag money in from other countries as we have no significant geological assets.
		
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More self sufficient economy, not fully self sufficient. 

I take your point but it's a deeper subject than this. The attached is a very interesting and thought provoking read on the economy. 
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/openeconomy/globalisation-and-self-sufficiency


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278979202008694784


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278979202008694784

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Certainly doesn’t


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Certainly doesn’t
View attachment 31491

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To be fair may we didn't hear the full quote.  As it may have been edited and they missed off _'unless they benefit me personally or politically_ from the end of the quote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2020)

Johnson reads his written script very well, almost statesman like. 
Questions.........….returns to his normal bumbling incompetent self.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 3, 2020)

Sounds like the bar is already open in No10

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279093324360699904


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 6, 2020)

Goodness me. 
Looks like Johnsons star will shine only briefly
No surprise to me, I always said he will be gone by Christmas.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...and-adrift/ar-BB16oq8a?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
No surprise to me, I always said he will be gone by Christmas.
...
		
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Fancy a wager on that?
A Tenner says he's still there at Christmas!


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## Old Skier (Jul 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Fancy a wager on that?
A Tenner says he's still there at Christmas!
		
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Come on it must be true DfT has the inside source on these things, bet he doesn’t take you on, however I don’t fancy his chances much after 2021.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Come on it must be true DfT has the inside source on these things, bet he doesn’t take you on, however I don’t fancy his chances much after 2021.
		
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Really!  Who else would be trying to lever themselves.


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## User62651 (Jul 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me.
Looks like Johnsons star will shine only briefly
No surprise to me, I always said he will be gone by Christmas.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...and-adrift/ar-BB16oq8a?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds

Click to expand...

It's a short but interesting piece sourcing views from across the political spectrum. 
The job is too big for Johnson, many of us knew it would be and that was before the coronavirus nightmare.  I think a lot of his own party know that too, the reliance on ChiefSpad is all too clear. Campaigning and Governing are 2 totally different beasts.
However with an 80 seat majority the only ones who can force him out are his own party. If there was to be an ousting (or more likely step down) surely it'd come a fair bit closer but not too close to the next GE, maybe mid 2023?


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## Mudball (Jul 6, 2020)

So we have offered citizenship to 3m HK residents .... what’s the opinion? Good / Bad? UK is doing this unilaterally without EU.  On the other hand, BoJo wants relationship with China after Brexit... 

Which way will this go??


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So we have offered citizenship to 3m HK residents .... what’s the opinion? Good / Bad? UK is doing this unilaterally without EU.  On the other hand, BoJo wants relationship with China after Brexit...

Which way will this go??
		
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I think the China relationship will change, I can see Huawei getting the push from G5 but China needs western markets; so much of their posturing will probably be just that.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the China relationship will change, I can see Huawei getting the push from G5 but China needs western markets; so much of their posturing will probably be just that.
		
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While it sounds like the Germans need to sell us cars, China does need western market... But equally, they have a massive internal market which they can pump prime. 10 yrs ago they did the same... gave all citizens incentives to buy China made white goods... turned the economy around even while the west was tanking. The west also needs China to consume more. Dyson to Merc, everyone wants China 

Equally Chinese have more wisdom than Trump.. they will play along as long as it suits their needs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

How very Trumpian was Johnson today in the HoC - denying that he said what he said about care homes two days ago.  When we all know _exactly _what he said, and that he said _precisely _what he told us today that he didn't say. 

Unfortunately his acolytes and 'Only Ever BoJoers' will not call him out for that latest deceit perpetrated on the UK public.

And though he told us today that his government takes responsibility for all that has happened (really - or just the good stuff?) - he refused to apologise for getting it wrong over care homes - even though we all know that we can - in all good faith and based upon out best judgements - still get things wrong.  And when we do we know that it is always best that we just hold up our hands with a 'mea culpa'.    

Because that is what taking responsibility means.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How very Trumpian was Johnson today in the HoC - denying that he said what he said about care homes two days ago.  When we all know _exactly _what he said, and that he said _precisely _what he told us today that he didn't say.

Unfortunately his acolytes and 'Only Ever BoJoers' will not call him out for that latest deceit perpetrated on the UK public.

And though he told us today that his government takes responsibility for all that has happened (really - or just the good stuff?) - he refused to apologise for getting it wrong over care homes - even though we all know that we can - in all good faith and based upon out best judgements - still get things wrong.  And when we do we know that it is always best that we just hold up our hands with a 'mea culpa'.   

Because that is what taking responsibility means.
		
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 'BoJoers'  is that your latest insult for people who have a different opinion.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			'BoJoers'  is that your latest insult for people who have a different opinion.
		
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He could have gotten it even worse if he called BJ-ers...  #just saying


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			'BoJoers'  is that your latest insult for people who have a different opinion.
		
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Well plenty seem to refer to him as BoJo without getting attacked for doing so - and it just seems the natural extension for those who will follow and believe him no matter what he says or does - and as supporters of Cameron would or might have been Cameroons or Cameronians; of Blair - Blairites; of Brown - Broonies; and of May - Maybies?  

Perhaps he'd quite like to be known as AdePJ as many like being referred to by their initials and AdePJ is rather distinguished.  Never cuddly, dishevelled Boris for me I'm afraid (though did I spot in PMQs that he seemed to have had his hair cut and combed?)


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well plenty seem to refer to him as BoJo without getting attacked for doing so - and it just seems the natural extension for *those who will follow and believe him no matter what he says or does* - and as supporters of Cameron would or might have been Cameroons or Cameronians; of Blair - Blairites; of Brown - Broonies; and of May - Maybies?  

Perhaps he'd quite like to be known as AdePJ as many like being referred to by their initials and AdePJ is rather distinguished.  Never cuddly, dishevelled Boris for me I'm afraid (though did I spot in PMQs that he seemed to have had his hair cut and combed?)
		
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It seems to me that the comments on the PM are getting more juvenile by the minute. I admit to having worked on projects in which he was involved. Based on that experience I never had cause to think he lied or was anything other than well briefed and professional and I respect him based on that time. As with all politicians I try and get behind the rhetoric to the substance by using my own knowledge and 'research' of factual sources.

I accept that many others may have a different view but I do not disrespect them and their right to their expressing those views. I'd never bother to call these people childish names in the way in which you and others have as you/they chose to do to define anyone who dare suggest agreement with the PM: especially when the personal insults are largely based on second-hand media commentary and subject ignorance.

I do not blindly support everything he has done or says and, as PM, it is right that he and the Government are held accountable. However rather than question and argue in a constructive manner you make, what I find silly assertions, e.g. "...*those who will follow and believe him no matter what he says or does..." *and this is as daft as the name calling which displays a lack of respect for the opinions of others in what Id hope could be a grown-up debate.

I leave the playground to the opposition....


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well plenty seem to refer to him as BoJo without getting attacked for doing so - and it just seems the natural extension for those who will follow and believe him no matter what he says or does - and as supporters of Cameron would or might have been Cameroons or Cameronians; of Blair - Blairites; of Brown - Broonies; and of May - Maybies?  

Perhaps he'd quite like to be known as AdePJ as many like being referred to by their initials and AdePJ is rather distinguished.  Never cuddly, dishevelled Boris for me I'm afraid (though did I spot in PMQs that he seemed to have had his hair cut and combed?)
		
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It would have been easier to just say 'Yes'


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			He could have gotten it even worse if he called BJ-ers...  #just saying  

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🤔 Maybe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

I'm not hearing that much these days from Johnson or his buddies on his 'oven-ready deal' with the EU, and 'a frictionless NI/rUK' border.  Or were these always just chimeras that he spouted to convince and that many believed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not hearing that much these days from Johnson or his buddies on his 'oven-ready deal' with the EU, and 'a frictionless NI/rUK' border.  Or were these always just chimeras that he spouted to convince and that many believed.  

Click to expand...

Nice comment from someone the other day.

It's all very well having oven ready deals but what happens when those in charge forgot to switch the oven on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nice comment from someone the other day.

It's all very well having oven ready deals but what happens when those in charge forgot to switch the oven on.
		
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...and I suppose in the context of NI, a peaceful Sunday spent yesterday at Drumcree would be considered frictionless - as in - if you're not trying to knock lumps out of the security services then that's frictionless...as a result for border control almost anything can be relatively frictionless...


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## PNWokingham (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not hearing that much these days from Johnson or his buddies on his 'oven-ready deal' with the EU, and 'a frictionless NI/rUK' border.  Or were these always just chimeras that he spouted to convince and that many believed.  

Click to expand...

The "oven ready" quote, as you well know, was reference to a deal largely like Canada, that the EU had offered May and that Johnson, with a government majority, had then said "yes" to. And, then the new issue of proximity came in to justify the EU backtracking very clearly from what had been offered! But i suppose that you see this is Johnson and the British side asking for extravagant demands and blaming them for not caving in to EU demands and thus the "oven ready" deal that was offered and then pulled by one sde, was made more complicated


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			The "oven ready" quote, as you well know, was reference to a deal largely like Canada, that the EU had offered May and that Johnson, with a government majority, had then said "yes" to. And, then the new issue of proximity came in to justify the EU backtracking very clearly from what had been offered! But i suppose that you see this is Johnson and the British side asking for extravagant demands and blaming them for not caving in to EU demands and thus the "oven ready" deal that was offered and then pulled by one sde, was made more complicated
		
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No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up. 

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go.  He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over.  And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making.  That the EU back-tracked from what they may have previously offered the UK then that was done in a different context - with the EU having perhaps different expectations of the UK at that time.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up.

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go.  He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over.  And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making.
		
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I notice you didn't reply to the bit about the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered.

Its always the UK's fault with you. How about, just once, acknowledging that both sides are a bit slippery... if you can of course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I notice you didn't reply to the bit about the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered.

Its always the UK's fault with you. How about, just once, acknowledging that both sides are a bit slippery... if you can of course.
		
Click to expand...

I did reflect on the comment.  But I wouldn't sell something to that public that is only in prototype and depends upon a partner or 3rd party supplier who is not fully engaged, and that you know could walk away if they are not happy with their conditions of contract.  And our lead salesman has been Johnson.  He has sold the product and our partner has walked away - or has asked to renegotiate new terms of engagement - as you might expect a loosely engaged 3rd party partner to do if they could see benefit to themselves from doing so.

Maybe we should have accepted the Canada-style deal when it was offered and got the EU tied into it so they couldn't walk away.   But we didn't.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did reflect on the comment.  But I wouldn't sell something to that public that is only in prototype and depends upon a 3rd party supplier who is not fully engaged and that you know could walk away if they are not happy with their conditions of contract.
		
Click to expand...

Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this. 

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?
		
Click to expand...

What you list I suggest are things that we have known could happen all along.  The sort of things that during the referendum debate were flagged up as risks or potential problems - but were dismissed as Project Fear.  That some or all have come to pass should surprise no-one.

But actually - all I want is for Johnson, Gove et al to be honest and straight with the UK electorate.  The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All I want is for Johnson, Gove et al to be honest and straight with the UK electorate.  The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.
		
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Is there a chance of you answering the questions? Or are you going to continue to avoid them?

I don't want this Tory govt, and I'm sure you've read my point that I believe Johnson is Trump-lite. However, I want the best deal for this country. Being Johnson's moral compass, as you appear to want to be, is a complete waste of time. He has a long history, as you say, and he will continue in the same vein. You brought up the trade deal aspect.... do you want what the best deal for the UK or not? Spin and posturing has happened on both sides but you only choose to point the finger at the UK side.


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## DanFST (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.
		
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They are all self serving. They all lie. You don't become an MP being honest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

DanFST said:



			They are all self serving. They all lie. You don't become an MP being honest.
		
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That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and avoidance.  And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister.  In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support.  That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and *avoidance.*  And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister.  In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support.  That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?
		
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*"Avoidance..."*

Where do *YOU* stand on the EU's demands? We know what was flagged up but do you side with the UK on each of those questions or are you going to continue to avoid them as you usually do when someone asks you to make a choice between what is best for the UK or the EU?

Alternatively, we can just accept your silence as affirmation that you want the UK to fail and for it to be ruled by Brussels.


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## drdel (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and avoidance.  And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister.  In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support.  That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if you have conducted any research by reading some of the European press? You might have missed the fact that the EU is far from secure economically and their federalist ambitions have significantly increased as they seek to annex more (negatively contributing) eastern countries. You may have missed that numerous matters between the UK and EU have been agreed.

Even since 2016 it is clear the world of trade and services has changed; it has certainly outpaced the EU's strategy and left behind the 'fear' stories. The UK is far better placed to manage the issues of Covid 19 and the slump in industrial output/consumption. Hell will be well and truly frozen over before you see the UK in a positive way.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up.

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go.  He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over.  And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making.  That the EU back-tracked from what they may have previously offered the UK then that was done in a different context - with the EU having perhaps different expectations of the UK at that time.
		
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He had a basis for a relatively easy trade deal - if you want to focus on the literal meaning of a comment made in the similar vein as many politicians make comments (i.e. short on detail and long on rhetoric) just to back up your hatrid of our politicians and against the UK interests (which mincludes your family that we always hear so much about), then carry on......

Unless you haven't realised, a trade deal is a load of blarney, boasts, egos and red lines on both sides and anything with the EU will always go down to the wire. The EU are no different in this - BUT, the big issue here is them going back on what they originally offered (not a done-deal deal, but an easy to adapt script that was already written) - yet you have never once showed any backing for the UKs very reasonable stance in this negotiation, just bashing every aspect of the UKs negotiations and siding with the EU


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year. 

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.


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## drdel (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year. 

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.
		
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"You" being who?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year. 

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.
		
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What, these frigates.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-type-26-frigate-not-cancelled/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			He had a basis for a relatively easy trade deal - if you want to focus on the literal meaning of a comment made in the similar vein as many politicians make comments (i.e. short on detail and long on rhetoric) just to back up your hatrid of our politicians and against the UK interests (which mincludes your family that we always hear so much about), then carry on......

Unless you haven't realised, a trade deal is a load of blarney, boasts, egos and red lines on both sides and anything with the EU will always go down to the wire. The EU are no different in this - BUT, the big issue here is them going back on what they originally offered (not a done-deal deal, but an easy to adapt script that was already written) - yet you have never once showed any backing for the UKs very reasonable stance in this negotiation, just bashing every aspect of the UKs negotiations and siding with the EU
		
Click to expand...

I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever.  I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable.  That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected.  But that was all Project Fear.  Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk.  

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”. 

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow?  Never mind.  Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever.  I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable.  That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected.  But that was all Project Fear.  Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk.  

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”. 

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow?  Never mind.  Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.
		
Click to expand...

I thought  Farage, Gove and BoJo all have said that the 350 was a statement rather than an accurate number.. so I am guessing this is 7b in new spend. 

Spin it the other way... this 7b will create new jobs at the border, new infrastructure et al.. what’s not to like? They are already getting ready for new truck terminal in Kent (sad that the locals not want their houses near it, but that is a small price to pay for nation building)


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever.  I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable.  That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected.  But that was all Project Fear.  Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk. 

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”.

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow?  Never mind.  Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.
		
Click to expand...

*Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.*

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal? 

*Still avoiding the questions I see. I will reply to everyone of your posts with these questions till you answer them, whichever of the threads you bring this up.*

*I think there was a Norwegian back in the 40's...............*


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## DanFST (Jul 14, 2020)

I'm glad we're leaving, If only that we've seen Hobbit unleashed.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm glad we're leaving, If only that we've seen Hobbit unleashed. 

Click to expand...

Fwee the Hobbit-one


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Fwee the Hobbit-one
		
Click to expand...

...from Hobbiton...  But a Took or a Baggins has to be known...


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...from Hobbiton...  But a Took or a Baggins has to be known...
		
Click to expand...

Still waiting Hugh.

*Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.*

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?

*Still avoiding the questions I see. I will reply to everyone of your posts with these questions till you answer them, whichever of the threads you bring this up.*

*I think there was a Norwegian back in the 40's..............*


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## Foxholer (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			...
Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?
Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?
...
		
Click to expand...

FWIW (from a Remain voter, now committed to see 'Leave' implemented, but not at 'any cost'!) my replies are...
That's up for negotiation - but not automatically!
Certainly not! That, 'self determination', was one of the (perhaps THE for some politicians) fundamental reasons to leave!
No - they have other 'weapons' that can have the same effect though!
Absolutely not!
Shouldn't be agreed to - but no problem if that's what is agreed. Makes life for traders much simpler.
That was a (sneaky) negotiation ploy. UK/Boris should have (quietly) bitten their hand off to sign up to it! Instead he turned the oven off!


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## chrisd (Jul 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			IThey are already getting ready for new truck terminal in Kent (sad that the locals not want their houses near it, but that is a small price to pay for nation building)
		
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There are very few houses that near to the land that the Government have taken and there is also a big truck stop next to it already and plans for a massive Amazon warehouse. Huge numbers of lorries come up and down the M20 every day and the new terminal is directly off the new junction 10a, my only concern really is the lorries that park everywhere but the lorry parks, so that the drivers dont pay for parking at the truck stops!


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			There are very few houses that near to the land that the Government have taken and there is also a big truck stop next to it already and plans for a massive Amazon warehouse. Huge numbers of lorries come up and down the M20 every day and the new terminal is directly off the new junction 10a, my only concern really is the lorries that park everywhere but the lorry parks, so that the drivers dont pay for parking at the truck stops!
		
Click to expand...

If you buy a house near a railway line.. can you complain if they put another line in?  Probably not


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## spongebob59 (Jul 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			There are very few houses that near to the land that the Government have taken and there is also a big truck stop next to it already and plans for a massive Amazon warehouse. Huge numbers of lorries come up and down the M20 every day and the new terminal is directly off the new junction 10a, my only concern really is the lorries that park everywhere but the lorry parks, so that the drivers dont pay for parking at the truck stops!
		
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It's not their parking that bothers me it's their waste disposal activities 😮


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## chrisd (Jul 14, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			It's not their parking that bothers me it's their waste disposal activities 😮
		
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That too 😖


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## drdel (Jul 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That too 😖
		
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When the facilities are up and running any 'illegal' or anti social 'parking' should lead to the truck and load being impounded for 24 hours - the behaviour would soon stop.


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## chrisd (Jul 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			When the facilities are up and running any 'illegal' or anti social 'parking' should lead to the truck and load being impounded for 24 hours - the behaviour would soon stop.
		
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I agree entirely


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			When the facilities are up and running any 'illegal' or anti social 'parking' should lead to the truck and load being impounded for 24 hours - the behaviour would soon stop.
		
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We should be more aggressive with european lorries than UK ones... remember we can make our own rules..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still waiting Hugh.

*Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.*

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?

*Still avoiding the questions I see. I will reply to everyone of your posts with these questions till you answer them, whichever of the threads you bring this up.*

*I think there was a Norwegian back in the 40's..............*

Click to expand...

My point - on this discussion thread about *Johnson *- *was not about Brexit pro and cons* as such - it was about Johnson's *language and promises* in respect of such as 'the Brexit easy deal' and 'the Brexit frictionless border' that he sold the electorate.  Some of us may well have bought these promises.

Brexit is done.  We are leaving.  Johnson is not done.  We are stuck with him - and we are stuck with whatever he chooses to promise the electorate next in whatever context that is.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point - on this discussion thread about *Johnson *- *was not about Brexit pro and cons* as such - it was about Johnson's *language and promises* in respect of such as 'the Brexit easy deal' and 'the Brexit frictionless border' that he sold the electorate.  Some of us may well have bought these promises.

Brexit is done.  We are leaving.  Johnson is not done.  We are stuck with him - and we are stuck with whatever he chooses to promise the electorate next in whatever context that is.
		
Click to expand...

Why dont you just answer the questions?


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point - on this discussion thread about *Johnson *- *was not about Brexit pro and cons* as such - it was about Johnson's *language and promises* in respect of such as 'the Brexit easy deal' and 'the Brexit frictionless border' that he sold the electorate.  Some of us may well have bought these promises.

Brexit is done.  We are leaving.  Johnson is not done.  We are stuck with him - and we are stuck with whatever he chooses to promise the electorate next in whatever context that is.
		
Click to expand...

And you still won't answer the questions. Lets be honest, if its at all possible for you, you cannot support a Tory govt and Johnson in getting a good deal but, by default, you obviously support the EU. I thought that as your son is out of work you'd be screaming for the best outcome possible for the UK and its economy. Can you honestly look in the mirror and support the EU in this, to the detriment of the UK? Very, very poor show Hugh. Very poor.


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## User62651 (Jul 16, 2020)

Is this an overreaction from Cummings and Bojo or are they terrified of what a report into Russian meddling in elections here might expose if not absolutely controlled by No10?
Failing Grayling was hardly the best choice for this role - too dense (but easily manipulated/controlled) and Julian Lewis, by all accounts a principled respected old guard Tory, knew it.

You can bet your boots Cummings will not rest until they have their puppet of choice back at the chair of ISC. Expect cover up after cover up.

Majority reduced in Commons at least.

This is how we are led.

https://news.sky.com/story/dr-julia...st-pms-security-committee-chair-pick-12029301


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And you still won't answer the questions. Lets be honest, if its at all possible for you, you cannot support a Tory govt and Johnson in getting a good deal but, by default, you obviously support the EU. I thought that as your son is out of work you'd be screaming for the best outcome possible for the UK and its economy. Can you honestly look in the mirror and support the EU in this, to the detriment of the UK? Very, very poor show Hugh. Very poor.
		
Click to expand...

I am not answering the questions because I am tired of the brexit machinations, my point is about Johnson - not brexit.  Brexit is done.  Johnson and his crew can get on with it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Is this an overreaction from Cummings and Bojo or are they terrified of what a report into Russian meddling in elections here might expose if not absolutely controlled by No10?
Failing Grayling was hardly the best choice for this role - too dense (but easily manipulated/controlled) and Julian Lewis, by all accounts a principled respected old guard Tory, knew it.

You can bet your boots Cummings will not rest until they have their puppet of choice back at the chair of ISC. Expect cover up after cover up.

Majority reduced in Commons at least.

This is how we are led.

https://news.sky.com/story/dr-julia...st-pms-security-committee-chair-pick-12029301

Click to expand...

There is a chance now that the 'delayed' covered up election fraud Russian report will now be released, isn't this what this stooshie is all about.


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## User62651 (Jul 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a chance now that the 'delayed' covered up election fraud Russian report will now be released, isn't this what this stooshie is all about.
		
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Was always going to be released but a version controlled completely by No 10 - that's why they're flapping in No 10 that they may have lost control over the release without their man in the chair.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a chance now that the 'delayed' covered up election fraud Russian report will now be released, isn't this what this stooshie is all about.
		
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Assuming that the report does show Russian interference in the election what are the repercussions from that and what could happen?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Dominic Grieve (Chair of the ISC 2017-2019) tells us on Newsnight last night that it is the members of the ISC who elect the chair of the ISC - as they have done in electing Julian Lewis.

Matt Hancock tells us on Peston last night that the government appoints the chair of the ISC

The ISC website is clear I think (my bold)

http://isc.independent.gov.uk/

*Membership*

_The Committee consists of nine Members, drawn from both Houses of Parliament and appointed by Parliament. T*he Chair of the Committee is elected by its Members.*_


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not answering the questions because I am tired of the brexit machinations, my point is about Johnson - not brexit.  Brexit is done.  Johnson and his crew can get on with it.
		
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I'd point out that your posts rather contradict that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd point out that your posts rather contradict that.
		
Click to expand...

My posts will point out where I see lies, deceits or dissembling in respect of anything.  And as Johnson is PM, what he says and does matters.

On Brexit - the government has either sown the seeds, and we will reap the harvest - or it has sown the wind, and we will reap the whirlwind.  He and they will be judged by the electorate in time accordingly.  Arguing the Pros and Cons of leaving are for me now irrelevant.  The reality of what happens is what matters.

Besides I have problems close to home to worry about - problems directly impacted by what Johnson and the government says and does, and how the public, business and industry reacts in response.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not answering the questions because I am tired of the brexit machinations, my point is about Johnson - not brexit.  Brexit is done.  Johnson and his crew can get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

Your refusal to answer what seem perfectly sensible and civil questions based on your own points on here surely makes you as bad as those you seeks to attack at every turn


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Your refusal to answer what seem perfectly sensible and civil questions based on your own points on here surely makes you as bad as those you seeks to attack at every turn
		
Click to expand...

The thread is about Johnson and not the Pros and Cons of Brexit.  Brexit is done.  No point in debating the Pros and Cons.  

I simply look at what Johnson promised and claimed for Brexit and what it appears is likely to happen.  And when what was promised or claimed back then and since then was challenged and these challenges were thrown into the Project Fear bucket, then that can be pointed out.  

I no longer have any interest in debating the Pros and Cons of Brexit - after all - I have been told for four years to get over it.  I have.  

But that does not make use of events from the past irrelevant - as we should learn from what we have been told would happen and what has actually happened (see also government management of the pandemic response) as pointers to caution and advise us on what we are being told today and what is the best way ahead.

I repeat.  Brexit is Done.  Over.  From the  Brexit seed that we have sown so shall we reap - or from the wind we have sown we shall reap the whirlwind.  It is (way) too early to tell which - but perhaps we can start to sense.  Meanwhile we can simply watch and listen and when the time comes we can judge Johnson and his government accordingly.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 16, 2020)

Chris Grayling? Intelligence committee? Come on, even those of you that voted for this shower must now realise they are deliberately trolling the nation and finding out just how far they can push it.


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## User62651 (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dominic Grieve (Chair of the ISC 2017-2019) tells us on Newsnight last night that it is the members of the ISC who elect the chair of the ISC - as they have done in electing Julian Lewis.

Matt Hancock tells us on Peston last night that the government appoints the chair of the ISC

The ISC website is clear I think (my bold)

http://isc.independent.gov.uk/

*Membership*

_The Committee consists of nine Members, drawn from both Houses of Parliament and appointed by Parliament. T*he Chair of the Committee is elected by its Members.*_

Click to expand...


Rules have become a bit meh.......In banana republic britain 2020 independent panels and committees are infiltrated and manipulated with stooges so it goes how 'el presidente' and his 'brain for hire' wants it to go. 

How long do you give Lewis in that ISC role?


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My posts will point out where I see lies, deceits or dissembling in respect of anything.  And as Johnson is PM, what he says and does matters.

On Brexit - the government has either sown the seeds, and we will reap the harvest - or it has sown the wind, and we will reap the whirlwind.  He and they will be judged by the electorate in time accordingly.  Arguing the Pros and Cons of leaving are for me now irrelevant.  The reality of what happens is what matters.

Besides I have problems close to home to worry about - problems directly impacted by what Johnson and the government says and does, and how the public, business and industry reacts in response.
		
Click to expand...

I think my problem lies in the fact you said Brexit is a subject you wished to put in the past yet you continue to (IMO rant) on that very same topic.

IMO you undermine your good points by using pseudo religious phraseology " From the Brexit seed that we have sown so shall we reap - or from the wind we have sown we shall reap the whirlwind. ". It infers that those who disagree are less moral/religious less righteous than yourself.


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## IainP (Jul 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Chris Grayling? Intelligence committee?
		
Click to expand...

I see words and question marks, but no questions. Do you care to enlighten?


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not answering the questions because I am tired of the brexit machinations, my point is about Johnson - not brexit.  Brexit is done.  Johnson and his crew can get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

YOU habe been the main instigator of every Brexit question And slagging off of the U.K. but when the questions get tough you go and hide. Disgraceful response!


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The thread is about Johnson and not the Pros and Cons of Brexit.  Brexit is done.  No point in debating the Pros and Cons. 

I simply look at what Johnson promised and claimed for Brexit and what it appears is likely to happen.  And when what was promised or claimed back then and since then was challenged and these challenges were thrown into the Project Fear bucket, then that can be pointed out. 

I no longer have any interest in debating the Pros and Cons of Brexit - after all - I have been told for four years to get over it.  I have. 

But that does not make use of events from the past irrelevant - as we should learn from what we have been told would happen and what has actually happened (see also government management of the pandemic response) as pointers to caution and advise us on what we are being told today and what is the best way ahead.

I repeat.  Brexit is Done.  Over.  From the  Brexit seed that we have sown so shall we reap - or from the wind we have sown we shall reap the whirlwind.  It is (way) too early to tell which - but perhaps we can start to sense.  Meanwhile we can simply watch and listen and when the time comes we can judge Johnson and his government accordingly.
		
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Brexit is done, and it’s now about the negotiations. The questions were where do YOU stand on the EU’s demands?

You’re not daft Hugh, certainly can’t be with the job you do. You know exactly where you stand on those questions surrounding the negotiations but you refuse to answer them. Coward?

And we know, by default, exactly where you stand too. Be honest, if you can. But I think you have a very serious issue admitting to everyone on here what you really believe.... 

And as previously stated, I will continue to ask them until you find a shred of honesty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Brexit is done, and it’s now about the negotiations. The questions were where do YOU stand on the EU’s demands?

You’re not daft Hugh, certainly can’t be with the job you do. You know exactly where you stand on those questions surrounding the negotiations but you refuse to answer them. Coward?

And we know, by default, exactly where you stand too. Be honest, if you can. But I think you have a very serious issue admitting to everyone on here what you really believe....

And as previously stated, I will continue to ask them until you find a shred of honesty.
		
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As far as the EUs demands?  What of what they are demanding could we not reasonably have expected them to seek.  My view on all of these questions is simple.  If we wish to have tariff free access to the single market and the 5 questions you list are the EUs non-negotiable demands on us - then if I want the UK to have access to the tariff free access to the single market and they are the price then though I might not like any of them if it is the price to pay then so be it.


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As far as the EUs demands?  What of what they are demanding could we not reasonably have expected them to seek.  My view on all of these questions is simple.  If we wish to have tariff free access to the single market and the 5 questions you list are the EUs non-negotiable demands on us - then if I want the UK to have access to the tariff free access to the single market and they are the price then though I might not like any of them if it is the price to pay then so be it.
		
Click to expand...

I think the issue is "reasonably." And, AGAIN, do you agree with each of those demands? I've copied them in below as a reminder. A straight yes or no to each of them will suffice - no need for the waffle above.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?


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## Mudball (Jul 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			I see words and question marks, but no questions. Do you care to enlighten?
		
Click to expand...

I guess @hacker is talking about Failing Grayling's excellent track record and questioning the intellgence behind the appointment.  A lap dog to kill the report or ignore....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Assuming that the report does show Russian interference in the election what are the repercussions from that and what could happen?
		
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Hang on I'll ask the wife.
She said what a daft question. 


Me ...well as I do not know what it is that this government seem to be hiding/delaying from being published.
I haven't a scooby doo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think the issue is "reasonably." And, AGAIN, do you agree with each of those demands? I've copied them in below as a reminder. A straight yes or no to each of them will suffice - no need for the waffle above.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?
		
Click to expand...

If we are to have full tariff free access to the single market and that minimises the impact on the NI/EU border and internal NI/rUK 'border'- and the EU requires us to meet each of these demands - then yes.  Nobody said it would be easy...hmmm.

And I get the 'proximity' issue being a significant differentiator between Canada and the UK - maybe we should have grabbed it when they offered it.


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## Mudball (Jul 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hang on I'll ask the wife.
She said what a daft question. 


Me ...well as I do not know what it is that this government seem to be hiding/delaying from being published.
I haven't a scooby doo.
		
Click to expand...

As the great Trump says,... its a witch hunt and waste  of time..


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we are to have full tariff free access to the single market and that minimises the impact on the NI/EU border and internal NI/rUK 'border'- and the EU requires us to meet each of these demands - then yes.  Nobody said it would be easy...hmmm.

And I get the 'proximity' issue being a significant differentiator between Canada and the UK - maybe we should have grabbed it when they offered it.
		
Click to expand...

First of all, thank you for answering. Secondly, really?

I expect there to be a quid pro quo over fishing access for a number of reasons. Its a common sense trade off. Ring fencing all the stock for a UK fleet that no longer exists is just dumb, and its a great opportunity for some middle ground.

But the ECJ isn't independent, and you're willing to accept them as arbitrator? Really?

You're willing to accept the EU as the overarching body on subsidies, AND compromise the UK's trading position with the rest of the world? Really? Where's the intelligence in that?

Similarly, to above with quotas, you're willing to give up the UK's attractive position in negotiations with the rest of the world? Really?

Standards; this is a far more complex issue. Every manufacture that wants to export into the EU will have to manufacture to the EU's standards anyway. So why is the EU asking for this? It gives the EU control over the UK govt on standards. What about environmental standards? Unlike the UK, southern Europe pays lip service to meeting environmental standards. When Spain get it wrong they get a wrist slap. When France get it wrong, and fine - Spain doesn't, they ignore it. When Italy get it wrong, they get a fine, which like France they ignore and just carry on. Greece, until recently, did as they were told on standards but now they've met all the financial recovery rules set by Germany they are back to doing what they want. AND FINALLY, when the UK got it wrong they played a straight bat and paid the fine. The EU will fine the UK for every single thing - maybe you aren't aware but the EU has several cases going on against the UK for lots of trivia, and its all to do with raising money for the EU - its that transparent.

The geography issue is an absolute farce. I can't believe you've fallen for it, unless of course you want to. If I agree a delivery date with you of next week, what has geography got to do with it? And if its rolling deliveries, say 3 times a week, what has distance got to do with it. Canada can agree the same delivery schedules. You are a project manager, you know all the in's and out's of on time deliveries, even from Japan. Geography doesn't play a part, and you know that.

Once again, thanks for answering. Now, if you can, step back from your answers and view them objectively against a why would someone ask for that and why would it pass the test of 'natural justice' in an an equitable trade agreement? I don't think you are capable of viewing it objectively for two simple reasons. One, even subconsciously you can't accept the Tories/Boris achieving a good deal, but you could if it was Labour. And two, the harping back to past lies from the Brexit campaign clearly shows you haven't accepted the result. The Theresa May's abject capitulation on the agreement is, apparently, what you want. It would make the UK a slave state, worse than Norway.


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## Hackers76 (Jul 16, 2020)

So what you are saying is keep going until he agrees with you. The constant bombardment is getting boring


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			So what you are saying is keep going until he agrees with you. The constant bombardment is getting boring
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to scroll on by, and thanks for your constructive contribution


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## Foxholer (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we are to have full tariff free access to the single market and that minimises the impact on the NI/EU border and internal NI/rUK 'border'- and the EU requires us to meet each of these demands - then yes.  Nobody said it would be easy...hmmm.

And I get the 'proximity' issue being a significant differentiator between Canada and the UK - maybe we should have grabbed it when they offered it.
		
Click to expand...

That would be the worst of both worlds imo! Having to bear the costs (not just financial) of EU membership without any benefit!
Tariff free access is just as (actually, even more!) beneficial to EU nations as it is to UK. so highly desirable to get sorted. It MAY be why Gove et al have only now started funding developments to handle the alternative - giving the EU negotiators 'hope' that UK is committed to continuing as now! 

I'm certain the EU would have found a way to renege on any 'grabbed' deal! That's simply what they do - as 'negotiators'! And it's what they are doing now!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That would be the worst of both worlds imo! Having to bear the costs (not just financial) of EU membership without any benefit!
Tariff free access is just as (actually, even more!) beneficial to EU nations as it is to UK. so highly desirable to get sorted. It MAY be why Gove et al have only now started funding developments to handle the alternative - giving the EU negotiators 'hope' that UK is committed to continuing as now!

I'm certain the EU would have found a way to renege on any 'grabbed' deal! That's simply what they do - as 'negotiators'! And it's what they are doing now!
		
Click to expand...

If unfettered access to the EU single market and a seamless border between NI and rUK are considered to be critical for UK and NI business - and the EU does not budge on it's demands - then what to do?  I do not know what is least bad on balance - not really looking like Best of Both Worlds...

It is not that we weren't warned that if UK was adamant about what it had sold to the electorate then there was a racing certainty that the outcome would not include the access to the single market that we were also sold.  Who knows - maybe the EU will capitulate.  Maybe we will end up with the Best of Both Worlds that Johnson and Gove et al sold us.  Would be sweet indeed...in the context of the pandemic it feels like we really need it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think my problem lies in the fact you said Brexit is a subject you wished to put in the past yet you continue to (IMO rant) on that very same topic.

*IMO you undermine your good points by using pseudo religious phraseology " From the Brexit seed that we have sown so shall we reap - or from the wind we have sown we shall reap the whirlwind. ". It infers that those who disagree are less moral/religious less righteous than yourself.*

Click to expand...

You recognise these as biblical?...well if you choose to make these connections then fine - but I suspect that you yourself have used one or both of these phrases yourself - certainly they are in my day-to-day vocabulary and have been for as long as I can recall - I don't have to go looking for them.

Besides - we use many biblical quotes in everyday life so why have a go at me for using a couple.  And I'll note that whilst I might guess that 'reaping what we sow' might well be - I didn't actually know that 'reaping the whirlwind' was.  However as you seem to know your bible better than I know mine I'll have to go and find them 

And your last sentence made me laugh in it's absurdity...

I'll add this quick list fro a very quick google search

AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR...
AT YOUR WIT'S END. ...
THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND. ...
BY THE SKIN OF YOUR TEETH. ...
TO CAST PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. ...
EAT, DRINK AND BE MERRY. ...
TO FALL BY THE WAYSIDE. ...
FEET OF CLAY.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			First of all, thank you for answering. Secondly, really?

I expect there to be a quid pro quo over fishing access for a number of reasons. Its a common sense trade off. Ring fencing all the stock for a UK fleet that no longer exists is just dumb, and its a great opportunity for some middle ground.

But the ECJ isn't independent, and you're willing to accept them as arbitrator? Really?

You're willing to accept the EU as the overarching body on subsidies, AND compromise the UK's trading position with the rest of the world? Really? Where's the intelligence in that?

Similarly, to above with quotas, you're willing to give up the UK's attractive position in negotiations with the rest of the world? Really?

Standards; this is a far more complex issue. Every manufacture that wants to export into the EU will have to manufacture to the EU's standards anyway. So why is the EU asking for this? It gives the EU control over the UK govt on standards. What about environmental standards? Unlike the UK, southern Europe pays lip service to meeting environmental standards. When Spain get it wrong they get a wrist slap. When France get it wrong, and fine - Spain doesn't, they ignore it. When Italy get it wrong, they get a fine, which like France they ignore and just carry on. Greece, until recently, did as they were told on standards but now they've met all the financial recovery rules set by Germany they are back to doing what they want. AND FINALLY, when the UK got it wrong they played a straight bat and paid the fine. The EU will fine the UK for every single thing - maybe you aren't aware but the EU has several cases going on against the UK for lots of trivia, and its all to do with raising money for the EU - its that transparent.

The geography issue is an absolute farce. I can't believe you've fallen for it, unless of course you want to. If I agree a delivery date with you of next week, what has geography got to do with it? And if its rolling deliveries, say 3 times a week, what has distance got to do with it. Canada can agree the same delivery schedules. You are a project manager, you know all the in's and out's of on time deliveries, even from Japan. Geography doesn't play a part, and you know that.

Once again, thanks for answering. Now, if you can, step back from your answers and view them objectively against a why would someone ask for that and why would it pass the test of 'natural justice' in an an equitable trade agreement? I don't think you are capable of viewing it objectively for two simple reasons. One, even subconsciously you can't accept the Tories/Boris achieving a good deal, but you could if it was Labour. And two, the harping back to past lies from the Brexit campaign clearly shows you haven't accepted the result. The Theresa May's abject capitulation on the agreement is, apparently, what you want. It would make the UK a slave state, worse than Norway.
		
Click to expand...

Look - to be honest I frankly no longer care about the pros and cons of leaving the EU.   We have left, my side of the argument lost.  It's over.  And this government is now trying to get in place an arrangement that delivers at least some of their promises whilst adhering to what we signed up to in the political declaration part of the Withdrawal Agreement.   And the more they can deliver the better.

But where a promise was made and is not to be delivered; that was at the time challenged as being unachievable or very high risk, but dismissed as Project Fear - then I might choose to point out that fact - but *purely as being indicative* of the duplicity and dissembling that characterises much of what Johnson said and continues to say and do.  As he is unfortunately still our PM.


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You recognise these as biblical?...well if you choose to make these connections then fine - *but I suspect that you yourself have used one or both of these phrases yourself *- certainly they are in my day-to-day vocabulary and have been for as long as I can recall - I don't have to go looking for them.

Besides - we use many biblical quotes in everyday life so why have a go at me for using a couple.  And I'll note that whilst I might guess that 'reaping what we sow' might well be - I didn't actually know that 'reaping the whirlwind' was.  *However as you seem to know your bible better than I know mine I'll have to go and find them*

Click to expand...

Really. I just gave gave a personal view and, to be accurate, I said your phraseology were _pseudo religious_: I did not say you had quoted the bible. Bible / religious statements are not part of my normal phrases.

Moving on.
Following from Hobbits post I'd suggest you might want to take a squint at the state of the EU. Harmony is not looking good, their budget discussions is a can kicked down the road, debt is massive and out of control, Federalism is moving up the agenda and the 'Frugal 4' are going to be stung hard despite their democratic Government's strong objections. I could add a lots more to that list. Even the pro-EU; post Lagarde IMF are critical of the shaky nature of the blocs economics.

Do you really still think the UK would be other than a cash cow to Brussels?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2020)

Will Johnson be offering a Lordship to comic Jim Davidson for supporting Brexit.  
Well many other 'c' list celebrities seem to be getting one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really. I just gave gave a personal view and, to be accurate, I said your phraseology were _pseudo religious_: I did not say you had quoted the bible. Bible / religious statements are not part of my normal phrases.

Moving on.
Following from Hobbits post I'd suggest you might want to take a squint at the state of the EU. Harmony is not looking good, their budget discussions is a can kicked down the road, debt is massive and out of control, Federalism is moving up the agenda and the 'Frugal 4' are going to be stung hard despite their democratic Government's strong objections. I could add a lots more to that list. Even the pro-EU; post Lagarde IMF are critical of the shaky nature of the blocs economics.

Do you really still think the UK would be other than a cash cow to Brussels?
		
Click to expand...

It’s a debate that’s over. We’ve left - you need to get over it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2020)

Lots of anti Russian 'Chaff' flying out from the Westminster blue team headquarters since Grayling got stitched up.
Makes you wonder what will be in the report when it is finally published.

China no more, Russia no more.........just Trump left now.
Cheap imported Cornish pasties and Scotch incoming.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2020)

Why should the Army be on standby for Brexit............we have had years to plan this properly.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...nister/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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## SocketRocket (Jul 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why should the Army be on standby for Brexit............we have had years to plan this properly.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...nister/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Click to expand...

It's part of the plan.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2020)

Looks like food and medicine shortages will be much worse than what we experienced with Covid.
The Government's cunning Cumming plan seems to be falling apart.
I would start stocking up on essentials as soon as possible.
This Government likes it's WW2 comparisons perhaps it will be re-introducing ration books.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like food and medicine shortages will be much worse than what we experienced with Covid.
The Government's cunning Cumming plan seems to be falling apart.
I would start stocking up on essentials as soon as possible.
This Government likes it's WW2 comparisons perhaps it will be re-introducing ration books.

Click to expand...

I feared this once Brexit was announced 

I have built up 6 months supply of My medication 

Food we can work around


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I feared this once Brexit was announced

I have built up 6 months supply of My medication

Food we can work around
		
Click to expand...

So let me get this right. The UK would have shortages of things like food and medication produced in the EU due to the UK stopping it coming into the country. I mean if it was going out the country we would already have it so can someone please explain to me why we would want to stop it and why would EU food producers want their fresh products rotting in the fields.    Or is Doon trolling again!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So let me get this right. The UK would have shortages of things like food and medication produced in the EU due to the UK stopping it coming into the country. I mean if it was going out the country we would already have it so can someone please explain to me why we would want to stop it and why would EU food producers want their fresh products rotting in the fields.    Or is Doon trolling again!
		
Click to expand...

Just one slight delay in the supply chain causes a backlog 

Proven by the covid bog roll shortages .


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just one slight delay in the supply chain causes a backlog 

Proven by the covid bog roll shortages .
		
Click to expand...

The problem with toilet rolls was with the panic buying, not the supply chain. There were plenty in the country but if people start buying in that fashion then little can manage. The lesson to be learned from that is either the govt or supermarkets have to restrict sales of certain items at the first sign of public hysteria.


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The problem with toilet rolls was with the panic buying, not the supply chain. There were plenty in the country but if people start buying in that fashion then little can manage. The lesson to be learned from that is either the govt or supermarkets have to restrict sales of certain items at the first sign of public hysteria.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, PPE would have been a better example!
Bog Roll issue was caused by excessive demand at 'final destination'. PPE issue was caused by manufacturers inability to produce enough at one end of chain and insufficient stockpile at t'other. Any 'Brexit-related' supply chain issues are likely to be between Port of Calais and the M20!


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So let me get this right. The UK would have shortages of things like food and medication produced in the EU due to the UK stopping it coming into the country. I mean if it was going out the country we would already have it so can someone please explain to me why we would want to stop it and why would EU food producers want their fresh products rotting in the fields.    Or is Doon trolling again!
		
Click to expand...

Modern pharmaceuticals have a number of steps, from making the basic pill, to packaging it in blister packs and the like, adding the prescribing information. Different parts of this process are performed in different EU countries, including the UK. and to a greater extent, Ireland, but while the UK was in the EU was no problem. Now some steps will have delays between them, and companies will probably chose to shift those steps out of the UK entirely. Also some medicines are made 'fresh' and manufactured and shipped on a 'just in time' basis. These include modern biologics, gene therapies and some of the new immunological treatments for cancer. This too is now problematic if there is a queue at Calais. 

Setting aside the broader Brexit issues, the UK should have worked to find a way to stay within the European Medicines Agency. That would have made the conduct of clinical trials in the NHS more attractive to pharma companies, made medicine approval smoother, cheaper and more efficient, and allowed UK involvement in European level research and development. But they never bothered, so NHS patients will lose out on earlier access to products, NHS hospitals will lose out on the fees and grants for conducting trials, and after the medicine is approved in the EU, some companies will not apply to the UK for their medicine at all or will delay it until successful launch elsewhere.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, PPE would have been a better example!
		
Click to expand...

I suspect all countries will have warehouses of the stuff in future years to avoid the problems that arose. For pretty much every other item that ran out the issue was people and panic buying. That is not hard to control really.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Modern pharmaceuticals have a number of steps, from making the basic pill, to packaging it in blister packs and the like, adding the prescribing information. Different parts of this process are performed in different EU countries, including the UK. and to a greater extent, Ireland, but while the UK was in the EU was no problem. Now some steps will have delays between them, and companies will probably chose to shift those steps out of the UK entirely. Also some medicines are made 'fresh' and manufactured and shipped on a 'just in time' basis. These include modern biologics, gene therapies and some of the new immunological treatments for cancer. This too is now problematic if there is a queue at Calais.

Setting aside the broader Brexit issues, the UK should have worked to find a way to stay within the European Medicines Agency. That would have made the conduct of clinical trials in the NHS more attractive to pharma companies, made medicine approval smoother, cheaper and more efficient, and allowed UK involvement in European level research and development. But they never bothered, so NHS patients will lose out on earlier access to products, NHS hospitals will lose out on the fees and grants for conducting trials, and after the medicine is approved in the EU, some companies will not apply to the UK for their medicine at all or will delay it until successful launch elsewhere.
		
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Very interesting but getting back to my previous point. Would the UK prevent food and drugs entering the UK thus creating shortages, the previous poster suggested he was building up a reserve stock. Dont we produce drugs that the EU rely on?     I doubt very much we will get food or drug shortages coming into the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just one slight delay in the supply chain causes a backlog

Proven by the covid bog roll shortages .
		
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Bog rolls are produced in the UK and it isnt anything to do with import restrictions but panick buying.  Theres no shortage now.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bog rolls are produced in the UK and it isnt anything to do with import restrictions but panick buying.  Theres no shortage now.
		
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However it showed how one small problem caused an issue in the chain..

Do you not think cutting ties with our biggest trading partners might not cause a slight issue?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However it showed how one small problem caused an issue in the chain..

Do you not think cutting ties with our biggest trading partners might not cause a slight issue?
		
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Yes, it showed how stupid panick buying is unnecessary and dumb.

Cutting ties? Why do you say that, we are not stopping trade with the EU, just changing our trading rules.  There may well still be a free trade agreement but whether there is or not we will still be trading. EU food growers wont have their products rotting in the fields or warehouses, EU cars wont stop coming into the UK.   That talk is just an ongoing project fear and probably a bigger problem for the EU as we have a big trade deficit with them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, PPE would have been a better example!
Bog Roll issue was caused by excessive demand at 'final destination'. PPE issue was caused by manufacturers inability to produce enough at one end of chain and insufficient stockpile at t'other. Any 'Brexit-related' supply chain issues are likely to be between Port of Calais and the M20!
		
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I hear that the government are now building 5 [five] European lorry overflow car parks in Kent, seems like we have nothing to worry about with Dover. 

Flour was a strange one during Covid..........huge supplies but unable to mass produce it in small bags seemed a bit weird.


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## Wolf (Jul 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I hear that the government are now building 5 [five] European lorry overflow car parks in Kent, seems like we have nothing to worry about with Dover. 

Flour was a strange one during Covid..........huge supplies but unable to mass produce it in small bags seemed a bit weird.
		
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Those lorry parks were always in the pipeline before brexit anyway due to the issues kent has had for a number of years with operation stack literally closing the M20 for hours and sometimes days on end causing issues for commuters and residents. That's really not new news!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it showed how stupid panick buying is unnecessary and dumb.

Cutting ties? Why do you say that, we are not stopping trade with the EU, just changing our trading rules.  There may well still be a free trade agreement but whether there is or not we will still be trading. EU food growers wont have their products rotting in the fields or warehouses, EU cars wont stop coming into the UK.   That talk is just an ongoing project fear and probably a bigger problem for the EU as we have a big trade deficit with them.
		
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Delays will happen, right now companies run on instant ordering

Need a part for a car? Order it next day to arrive to your garage straight through customs done

That will become slower and slower as checks are upped

Just because you don't believe something will happen doesn't make it project fear just means you bury your head in the sand


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Delays will happen, right now companies run on instant ordering

Need a part for a car? Order it next day to arrive to your garage straight through customs done

That will become slower and slower as checks are upped

Just because you don't believe something will happen doesn't make it project fear just means you bury your head in the sand
		
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Why would a part ordered today not simply come from a warehouse somewhere in UK - like what happens in the vast majority of cases now?
It'll only be the very rare case that needs to come 'direct from supplier'!
And while I anticipate some delays UK -> EU (which is why the lorry parks are being constructed), I don't anticipate the same sort of delays EU -> UK.

Btw. Even if coming from EU, It should still be ...Need a part for a car? Order it for next day to arrive to your garage customs done - no fuss, tiny delay.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Why would a part ordered today not simply come from a warehouse somewhere in UK - like what happens in the vast majority of cases now?
It'll on be the very rare case that needs to come 'direct from supplier'!
And while I anticipate some delays UK -> EU (which is why the lorry parks are being constructed), I don't anticipate the same sort of delays EU -> UK.

Btw. Even if coming from EU, It should still be ...Need a part for a car? Order it for next day to arrive to your garage customs done - no fuss, tiny delay.
		
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A lot of places replaces warehouses with direct from supplier as if could get the part the next day why need to rent a warehouse? Reduced cost


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## DanFST (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Delays will happen, right now companies run on instant ordering

Need a part for a car? Order it next day to arrive to your garage straight through customs done

That will become slower and slower as checks are upped

Just because you don't believe something will happen doesn't make it project fear just means you bury your head in the sand
		
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BMW MINI were always 3 days for me.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A lot of places replaces warehouses with direct from supplier as if could get the part the next day why need to rent a warehouse? Reduced cost
		
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Which, in a flexible economy, like UK's is, will mean warehouses will 'pop up' as replacements. And the vehicle industry is an example of where that already happens - It's Euro Car Parts's entire business model!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Delays will happen, right now companies run on instant ordering

Need a part for a car? Order it next day to arrive to your garage straight through customs done

That will become slower and slower as checks are upped

Just because you don't believe something will happen doesn't make it project fear just means you bury your head in the sand
		
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Few car places will order next day from Europe. There will be a UK storage facility that will hold the stock and they will ship next day. They will get x number of shipments in per week from Europe. For the first few months they may have to hold a little more stock, re-order slightly earlier than before but it will be all fairly manageable.

In terms of customs, clearance will be done in advance, not every vehicle will be checked inside and out. The big carriers will go through on trust with the occasional random check. There will be bumps in the road, particularly the first few weeks but the fear guff being pumped out really is just that.


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A lot of places replaces warehouses with direct from supplier as if could get the part the next day why need to rent a warehouse? Reduced cost
		
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Amazon, UPS, etc. manage to ship worldwide quite successfully. Veg.  and fruit etc come in from Africa, Sth America etc.

UK looking at more Freeports to speed transit at ports.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Which, in a flexible economy, like UK's is, will mean warehouses will 'pop up' as replacements. And the vehicle industry is an example of where that already happens - It's Euro Car Parts's entire business model!
		
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I agree that they will pop up however time will take to adjust.. these sort of issues in the medication department etc should have been agreed and sorted months ago

Like how our flights almost got grounded because they hadn't agreed terms


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I agree that they will pop up however time will take to adjust.. these sort of issues in the medication department etc should have been agreed and sorted months ago
...
		
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What makes you believe they haven't?
All PPE I've seen comes from PRC! Only rarely is there an issue with Medical supplies - which are often from India anyway.

It'll all be (pretty much) fine! Who knows EU originated Fruit & Veg might even actully be ripe/ready to eat when it arrives!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Delays will happen, right now companies run on instant ordering

Need a part for a car? Order it next day to arrive to your garage straight through customs done

That will become slower and slower as checks are upped

Just because you don't believe something will happen doesn't make it project fear just means you bury your head in the sand
		
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Do you really believe your local garage orders a replacement car part direct from a European manufacturers factory.


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2020)

Here's a thought.... orders due Jan 2nd don't arrive till the 5th. And those due on the 3rd don't arrive till the 6th. And those due on the 4th don't arrive till the 7th. And those due on the 5th don't arrive till the 8th.

So after the 3 day 'miss,' deliveries arrive every day, just like before.... I am amazed that all those naysayers haven't considered that after the first delay, every delivery is pushed back by pretty much the same amount and deliveries end up being daily as usual. *sigh* its not hard folks, using the odd brain cell.


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## Wolf (Jul 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought.... orders due Jan 2nd don't arrive till the 5th. And those due on the 3rd don't arrive till the 6th. And those due on the 4th don't arrive till the 7th. And those due on the 5th don't arrive till the 8th.

So after the 3 day 'miss,' deliveries arrive every day, just like before.... I am amazed that all those naysayers haven't considered that after the first delay, every delivery is pushed back by pretty much the same amount and deliveries end up being daily as usual. *sigh* its not hard folks, using the odd brain cell.
		
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Stop being so sensible, you know people don't like common sense in this place 😂


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought.... orders due Jan 2nd don't arrive till the 5th. And those due on the 3rd don't arrive till the 6th. And those due on the 4th don't arrive till the 7th. And those due on the 5th don't arrive till the 8th.

So after the 3 day 'miss,' deliveries arrive every day, just like before.... I am amazed that all those naysayers haven't considered that after the first delay, every delivery is pushed back by pretty much the same amount and deliveries end up being daily as usual. *sigh* its not hard folks, using the odd brain cell.
		
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Doesn't get away from the fact that there's a 3 day delay involved though! Which would be no problem (going off/rotting notwithstanding) if it's the same order every day. But for things like Car Parts, that's highly unlikely - and there's almost certainly 'better' ways to handle 'regular' requirements anyway.


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## Mudball (Jul 27, 2020)

Monday Musing... it will all be fine.  Spoke to Boris yesterday, he said we will be amazing.  Cant find a reason to not believe him..   We are already doing diferent things.  We can impose quarantine restrictions on individual parts of Europe already.  Just like the Germans wants to sell us cars, the Spanish want our holiday makers.   

So everyone control yourself and we will be fine.


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Doesn't get away from the fact that there's a 3 day delay involved though! Which would be no problem (going off/rotting notwithstanding) if it's the same order every day. But for things like Car Parts, that's highly unlikely - and there's almost certainly 'better' ways to handle 'regular' requirements anyway.
		
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VOR orders can be airfreight as necessary.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			VOR orders can be airfreight as necessary.
		
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Irrelevant to my reply (or Hobbit's post that I was replying to)!
And, no doubt, increases the cost!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought.... orders due Jan 2nd don't arrive till the 5th. And those due on the 3rd don't arrive till the 6th. And those due on the 4th don't arrive till the 7th. And those due on the 5th don't arrive till the 8th.

So after the 3 day 'miss,' deliveries arrive every day, just like before.... I am amazed that all those naysayers haven't considered that after the first delay, every delivery is pushed back by pretty much the same amount and deliveries end up being daily as usual. *sigh* its not hard folks, using the odd brain cell.
		
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That’s very simplistic Bri if it’s a tin of beans or a car part you need.

I’d suggest it’s a bit more worrying when it’s medication and people’s health.

You’ll probably know better than me that certain medications are restricted by prescription and pharmacies/Doctors etc will not issue duplicates to allow people to hoard etc.

We all hope any delays (preferably none at all) will be minor, people won’t be affected and they’ll laugh at themselves for over reacting, but can you really blame them for not being a bit anxious when it’s their health involved.

There are genuine concerns being reported in the media, which we all want to be wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52959639


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## Mudball (Jul 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s very simplistic Bri if it’s a tin of beans or a car part you need.

I’d suggest it’s a bit more worrying when it’s medication and people’s health.

You’ll probably know better than me that certain medications are restricted by prescription and pharmacies/Doctors etc will not issue duplicates to allow people to hoard etc.

We all hope any delays (preferably none at all) will be minor, people won’t be affected and they’ll laugh at themselves for over reacting, but can you really blame them for not being a bit anxious when it’s their health involved.

*There are genuine concerns being reported in the media, which we all want to be wrong.
*
*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52959639*

Click to expand...

Brace yourself for being called a Leftie... BBC to be called a Brexit hater and institutionally doing everthing to safeguard its own interest.   

i think it is about time we privatise the BBC.  Sell it to the Murdochs perhaps.   If the NHS can be on the negotiating table, i dont know why the BBC should not be..    Anyone disagrees with this?


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Brace yourself for being called a Leftie... BBC to be called a Brexit hater and institutionally doing everthing to safeguard its own interest.  

i think it is about time we privatise the BBC.  Sell it to the Murdochs perhaps.   If the NHS can be on the negotiating table, i dont know why the BBC should not be..    Anyone disagrees with this?
		
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better still sell the Beeb to some Russian Billionair with links to Putin


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s very simplistic Bri if it’s a tin of beans or a car part you need.

I’d suggest it’s a bit more worrying when it’s medication and people’s health.

You’ll probably know better than me that certain medications are restricted by prescription and pharmacies/Doctors etc will not issue duplicates to allow people to hoard etc.

We all hope any delays (preferably none at all) will be minor, people won’t be affected and they’ll laugh at themselves for over reacting, but can you really blame them for not being a bit anxious when it’s their health involved.

There are genuine concerns being reported in the media, which we all want to be wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52959639

Click to expand...

It was made deliberately simplistic for the hard of hearing... That, and I couldn’t be ar5ed typing out more.

The UK already imports just in time stuff from around the world. Hell, I was importing from around the world, e.g. spares for anaesthetic machines made under licence in China. Guess what? No problems with deliveries.

People are looking for problems because they want those problems. Deep down the told you so’s are salivating at the prospect.


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## Mudball (Jul 29, 2020)

There are times when I am happy to have Boris... these feelings come up when I see this one not being happy about his rating. 

Trump on Dr Fauci's popularity: 'Nobody likes me' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53576086


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2020)

I know this kind of thing goes on all the time.  But Kate Hoey?  Boris's brother. Beefy? A Russian donor? Tmay's husband? Really, is that the best a brave new independent nation can do?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083


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## patricks148 (Jul 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know this kind of thing goes on all the time.  But Kate Hoey?  Boris's brother. Beefy? A Russian donor? Tmay's husband? Really, is that the best a brave new independent nation can do?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083

Click to expand...

always been the same alass


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 31, 2020)

Now over 800 potential sitting Lords. Even the leader of the Lords, Norman Fowler stated it was wrong. They should be reducing numbers, not increasing them.

The Lords has been abused by parties for a very long time. Still disappointing though.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know this kind of thing goes on all the time.  But Kate Hoey?  Boris's brother. Beefy? A Russian donor? Tmay's husband? Really, is that the best a brave new independent nation can do?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083

Click to expand...

And no room for the ex-Speaker!
Childish vendettas!


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## Mudball (Jul 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know this kind of thing goes on all the time.  But Kate Hoey?  Boris's brother. Beefy? A Russian donor? Tmay's husband? Really, is that the best a brave new independent nation can do?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083

Click to expand...

I think they missed out on the No 10 cat... she has been doing political service, has a twitter account and has been loyal to her master... surely it’s time for Lord of the Rats...


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			always been the same alass
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			I know this kind of thing goes on all the time.  But Kate Hoey?  Boris's brother. Beefy? A Russian donor? Tmay's husband? Really, is that the best a brave new independent nation can do?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083

Click to expand...

But never a moan from the Liberal/lefties when Blair was putting in his list. Suck it up, it happens both ways depending who is in power.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2020)

The large number of SNP Lords is also a cause for worry.

Report says reduce to 600 [400 to many for my liking] Johnson ups it to 800 with 36 of his pals and donors.
Beam me up Scotty.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The large number of SNP Lords is also a cause for worry.

Report says reduce to 600 [400 to many for my liking] Johnson ups it to 800 with 36 of his pals and donors.
Beam me up Scotty.
		
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Its rubbish but tempered by Bercers not getting in.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But never a moan from the Liberal/lefties when Blair was putting in his list. Suck it up, it happens both ways depending who is in power.
		
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So as both parties do it then we should accept cronyism and mediocrity in the HOL?

And you may have missed the bit where I said that it had been going on for ages. But next time Labour are in power and then do this I'd be more than happy to post much when they put Diane Abbot's husband and Mike Gatting into the HOL.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But never a moan from the Liberal/lefties when Blair was putting in his list. Suck it up, it happens both ways depending who is in power.
		
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you must have missed my post where i said its always been the same... oh no you didn't


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## Foxholer (Aug 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Report says reduce to 600 [400 to many for my liking] Johnson ups it to 800 with 36 of his pals and donors.
...
		
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Quite a few of those appointed are not 'his pals and donors'. Though Botham was an advocate for Brexit, he sits on cross-benches. May's husband almost certainly isn't a BoJo fan. And plenty of others, like Philip Hammond and Ken Clarke are hardly likely to be fans either - even if dyed-in-the-wool Tories. Jo Johnson - Bojo's brother's likely unimpressed too, given his Remain attitude and resignation - but a likely consistent Tory vote where needed.


Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Beam me up Scotty.
		
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I'd second that!


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you must have missed my post where i said its always been the same... oh no you didn't

Click to expand...

Did I disagree with you?


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So as both parties do it then we should accept cronyism and mediocrity in the HOL?

And you may have missed the bit where I said that it had been going on for ages. But next time Labour are in power and then do this I'd be more than happy to post much when they put Diane Abbot's husband and Mike Gatting into the HOL.
		
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Am I disagreeing with you? We have little choice but to accept it until we’re lucky enough to get a party with the spheroids to do something about it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 1, 2020)

Botham has done sterling work via his charitable efforts, speaks well about them if you hear him speaking on the subject. . He has also been involved at Durham CC in recent times helping them out of their financial troubles. I'm hoping that he has been elevated to use his experience there rather than other areas. I believe he is sitting as a cross benchers/ independent so the signs are good. 

I'd abolish the Lords, at the minimum I'd halve the number in it. I'd certainly remove the title element as there are significant numbers with titles of respect that deserve no respect at all. I deeply resent the inept people that are called Lord or Baroness, it pains me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Botham has done sterling work via his charitable efforts, speaks well about them if you hear him speaking on the subject. . He has also been involved at Durham CC in recent times helping them out of their financial troubles. I'm hoping that he has been elevated to use his experience there rather than other areas. I believe he is sitting as a cross benchers/ independent so the signs are good.

I'd abolish the Lords, at the minimum I'd halve the number in it. I'd certainly remove the title element as there are significant numbers with titles of respect that deserve no respect at all. I deeply resent the inept people that are called Lord or Baroness, it pains me.
		
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Does Botham still think that England is an island. 
Just the sort of block we need to make laws for the UK.


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does Botham still think that England is an island. 
Just the sort of block we need to make laws for the UK.

Click to expand...


Technically he is correct ... 🤦‍♂️


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## Kellfire (Aug 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Technically he is correct ... 🤦‍♂️
		
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No he isn’t. England is on an island but it isn’t one.


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## patricks148 (Aug 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Botham has done sterling work via his charitable efforts, speaks well about them if you hear him speaking on the subject. . He has also been involved at Durham CC in recent times helping them out of their financial troubles. I'm hoping that he has been elevated to use his experience there rather than other areas. I believe he is sitting as a cross benchers/ independent so the signs are good.

I'd abolish the Lords, at the minimum I'd halve the number in it. I'd certainly remove the title element as there are significant numbers with titles of respect that deserve no respect at all. I deeply resent the inept people that are called Lord or Baroness, it pains me.
		
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i think Boris and Beefy have a bit an affinity of sorts, both serial adulterers

you are right about the HOL being cut back or got rid of full stop.. just another gravy train no matter who is in power


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i think Boris and Beefy have a bit an affinity of sorts, both serial adulterers

you are right about the HOL being cut back or got rid of full stop.. just another gravy train no matter who is in power
		
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Were they unfaithful to cornflakes?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Technically he is correct ... 🤦‍♂️
		
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Wow.......England is surrounded by water, that is news to a lot of folk.
BTW.........It is even joined to mainland Europe now. so not even a peninsula


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## SocketRocket (Aug 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wow.......England is surrounded by water, that is news to a lot of folk.
BTW.........It is even joined to mainland Europe now. so not even a peninsula 

Click to expand...

If you include the bits England let Scots and Welsh live on then its correct.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you include the bits England let Scots and Welsh live on then its correct.
		
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You sure  you are not Longshanks re-incarnated?😁


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## SocketRocket (Aug 3, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You sure  you are not Longshanks re-incarnated?😁
		
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Maybe I should go back to think again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2020)

I believe that the 'confusion/attitiude' goes back to the mid 19th century when such as some Scottish banks, railways, printing and other big business moved HQ to London - and a lot of the wealthier and more educated Scots tended to head down there - eschewing Scotland.  And as they saw the workings of the Old School Tie as it worked in London, so the sons of the wealthy still at home were sent south of the border for the education and took on English thinking and the low-esteem attitude to Scotland that was by then prevalent in the South.

As a result there was an anglicisation of the Scottish governing class that was mimicked in anglo-snobbery by the wealthy middle-class.  And where they should have been leading in culture they weren't.  The glory of that which is gaelic song, literature and poetry was suppressed - almost to extinction.  And around that time in much of the population the sense of Scottishness through Scots culture faded - see how little output there was from Scotland in the Poetry, Literature (Burns gone 40yrs and post-Scott) and Architecture (Charles who?) in the mid-late 19th Century.   Artists there were but they had to go to England to flourish due to lack of home patrons.  There was little new Scottish culture for the majority at home to appreciate - wheres previously there had been widespread education and appreciation of Scots culture.

And for many of the wealthy in England, their Scottishness became something they tended to avoid - use of the Scots tongue was avoided at all costs with preference being English - and the very distinctive Scottish culture all but vanished - and in the minds of many in England, Scotland simply became part of a greater England.  Which is what the English Kings and governments had sought for centuries in any case - and what 1707, by the mid-19thC, had pretty much succeeded in doing.  And so - come about 1900 - whilst the Scottish Royal Standard might still be seen flown - the Scottish National Flag (the Saltire) had been all but forgotten and had disappeared from sight and indeed from recognition.

It's taken a good while for the uniqueness of Scottish culture to be rejuvenated and thrive - and the appreciation amongst the populace of a distinctive Scottish culture - one very different from that of England - has developed in many...which is perhaps why we today find Sturgeon standing, and having a standing, as she does.

Scotland just an adjunct of England?  Well - in many ways we have to blame Victorian Scots for that...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 4, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290556955367477249And we complain about the Russians.


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## Mudball (Aug 4, 2020)




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## drdel (Aug 4, 2020)

Mudball said:








Click to expand...

Except UK MPs develop policy and are accountable. EU MEPs are presented with options selected by unelected Brussels directorates who are not accountable.


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			No he isn’t. England is on an island but it isn’t one.
		
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England shares the island with two large counties.


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2020)

Mudball said:








Click to expand...

Perhaps you need to look at how business is conducted in the EU Parliament. If you’re an MEP you don’t decide anything, you only advise the executive you’re not happy with it. They still just ignore you.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			Except UK MPs develop policy and are accountable. EU MEPs are presented with options selected by unelected Brussels directorates who are _not accountable_.
		
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Not in the same way, but their policies must be approved/CAN be challenged, and even changed, by the Council of the EU - which is made up of reps from each member country, each of whom must be a Minister or Secretary of State in their government.

Now that we have left, there's no need to continue the falsehood of 'NO accountability', though the accountability is certainly less 'direct'. It's a *different* system, just as (say) the US one is different!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291257878809128961
Just appointed to the HoL and telling downright lies to her former BBC employers/pals.
That's the backstabbing Baroness Davidson for you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 11, 2020)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...cabinet-meetings-ft/ar-BB17OeFK?ocid=msedgdhp 

Scaredy cat.

Yesterday's ill advised 'better together' plea from Johnson lasted as long as Cameron's Vow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...cabinet-meetings-ft/ar-BB17OeFK?ocid=msedgdhp

Scaredy cat.

Yesterday's ill advised 'better together' plea from Johnson lasted as long as Cameron's Vow.

Click to expand...

Not that long ago that there wasn't representation in the Westminster Cabinet specifically for Scotland. 

Before 1885 Scotland affairs were the responsibility of the Westminster Home Office.  From 1885 to 1926 the (newly created) Scottish Secretary wasn't a cabinet position - he was tucked away behind a door in Westminster with little authority and largely ignored.  Only in 1926 was there a cabinet position for the Secretary of State for Scotland created - coming about following Irish independence and as as a result of rise of nationalist and home rule feelings and agitation that led to the forming of the Scottish Nationalist Party in 1928 (which later merged with another nationalist party to form the SNP). 

So Westminster government not wanting or feeling the need to have Scottish representation at the 'top table' is nothing new.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that long ago that there wasn't representation in the Westminster Cabinet specifically for Scotland.

Before 1885 Scotland affairs were the responsibility of the Westminster Home Office.  From 1885 to 1926 the (newly created) Scottish Secretary wasn't a cabinet position - he was tucked away behind a door in Westminster with little authority and largely ignored.  Only in 1926 was there a cabinet position for the Secretary of State for Scotland created - coming about following Irish independence and as as a result of rise of nationalist and home rule feelings and agitation that led to the forming of the Scottish Nationalist Party in 1928 (which later merged with another nationalist party to form the SNP).

So Westminster government not wanting or feeling the need to have Scottish representation at the 'top table' is nothing new.
		
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Was their a point to be made in that or was it a primer to take a Scotish knee?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Was their a point to be made in that or was it a primer to take a Scotish knee?
		
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Just a wee bit of history in case anyone thought that ignoring the Scots was something new...that today's nationalism is a relatively recent thing - and that today's complaints about the role of Westminster in Scotland's affairs is just Sturgeon stirring it.  It's not.  The complaints of many Scots, and Westminster's keenness to keep Scottish representation away from the 'top table', are nothing new.  In fact this stuff went back to not long after 1707.

Don't understand the link to a Scottish knee - whatever that is.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just a wee bit of history in case anyone thought that ignoring the Scots was something new...that today's nationalism is a relatively recent thing - and that today's complaints about the role of Westminster in Scotland's affairs is just Sturgeon stirring it.  It's not.  The complaints of many Scots, and Westminster's keenness to keep Scottish representation away from the 'top table', are nothing new.  In fact this stuff went back to not long after 1707.

Don't understand the link to a Scottish knee - whatever that is.
		
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Tony Blair - Scottish.
Gordon Brown - Scottish.
Alaister Darling - Scottish parents, and an MP in Westminster for....Edinburgh(?).
Michael Gove - Scottish.

I doesn't matter who sits where at any given time, there will always be the "woe is me" coming from Scotland about Westminster representation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tony Blair - Scottish.
Gordon Brown - Scottish.
Alaister Darling - Scottish parents, and an MP in Westminster for....Edinburgh(?).
Michael Gove - Scottish.

I doesn't matter who sits where at any given time, there will always be the "woe is me" coming from Scotland about Westminster representation.
		
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All true - just saying that excluding the most senior politician responsible for solely Scottish matters from the top-table is not new - it's got lots of historical precedent.


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tony Blair - Scottish.
Gordon Brown - Scottish.
Alaister Darling - Scottish parents, and an MP in Westminster for....Edinburgh(?).
Michael Gove - Scottish.

I doesn't matter who sits where at any given time, there will always be the "woe is me" coming from Scotland about Westminster representation.
		
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Scotland's FM has been fighting Westminster the whole of her career. She might want to reflect on the fact that the world has fundamentally changed and in today's economic environment an independent Scotland would be on very shaky ground. Pride and dogma has replaced prudence.


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All true - just saying that excluding the most senior politician responsible for solely Scottish matters from the top-table is not new - it's got lots of historical precedent.
		
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Is the most senior politician in Scotland an MP in Westminster? Bearing in mind Westminster is the home of the UK govt and ALL the UK MP's, including MP's from Scotland, I'm not sure where you're going with this. 

There is, as you pointed out earlier, the Sec of State for Scotland. Not sure Yorkshire or Lancashire has a Sec of State. I wonder what representation all the Labour or LibDem constituencies feel they have.

Lets not forget Nicola Sturgeon, who isn't even elected to Westminster, is a Privy Counsellor. She gets the same access that Starmer gets and she's not even an elected MP to the UK govt nor the UK opposition.

If the Scottish people feel under represented may be they should consider voting Labour or Tory instead of the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2020)

Blair, Brown and Darling all served before the English Parliament at Westminster was established. Blair was an English MP
Gove is an English MP


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Blair, Brown and Darling all served before the English Parliament at Westminster was established. Blair was an English MP
Gove is an English MP
		
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They served in the UK parliament, and were/are UK MP's. UK MP's, not English MP's, not Scottish MP's, not Welsh MP's but UK MP's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			They served in the UK parliament, and were/are UK MP's. UK MP's, not English MP's, not Scottish MP's, not Welsh MP's but UK MP's.
		
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Strange how some UK MP's are excluded from most of Westminster's legislation.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 12, 2020)

It seems our government have been a bit rattled by an ice cream company who seem to be showing more humanity and empathy them out glorious over promoted well beyond her capabilities Home Secretary, if tweets and briefings are to be believed.

Must buy some the next time I'm in Sainsburys.


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strange how some UK MP's are excluded from most of Westminster's legislation.
		
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C'mon Doon, you're being obtuse. They don't get to vote on English legislation, just like the Westminister MP's don't get to vote in Holyrood. You know this but choose to ignore it when it suits, spouting a half truth.

If you want to argue the toss on independence I'll back you but if you're going to be 'flexible' with the truth when it suits I'll argue against you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2020)

That is why, for the UK to work fairly there should be an English parliament.........not one that messes with the UK Parliament.

OT.. Serious rail crash south of Stonehaven.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It seems our government have been a bit rattled by an ice cream company who seem to be showing more humanity and empathy them out glorious over promoted well beyond her capabilities Home Secretary, if tweets and briefings are to be believed.

Must buy some the next time I'm in Sainsburys. 

Click to expand...

I loved Liverpool's Mayor Joe comment on Farage's latest racist rant.
He said who said he would rather welcome Syrian refugees to Liverpool than Farage.


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is why, for the UK to work fairly there should be an English parliament.........not one that messes with the UK Parliament.

OT.. Serious rail crash south of Stonehaven.
		
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There is one. Its in Westminster and deals with English matters, and when those matters are under discussion, Scottish, Welsh and NI MP's are excluded from voting. Its as what you whinged about. Just what's the problem Doon?


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

Stolen from elsewhere... but oh so true... I can hear the bleating hearts from here...

WARNING A SECOND HEATWAVE TO HIT THE UK

With highs of 33° expected AGAIN today, it's time to ask "could the government have done more?" Downing Street knew about this heatwave weeks ago and have done nothing. Shipments of 400,000 pairs of Speedos and 500,000 bikinis, sun cream and Cornettos have reportedly been sent back as unsafe after media claims the shipment was quarantined a month ago and Boris did nothing.
Karen from Chavington said, "We just don't know if it's safe to go outside and sunbathe because we can't function or think for ourselves. Boris hasn't told us either way and all my obese kids need ice cream and sweets, the Hubby can't get out to rob anyone so we're out of lager and weed, I blame the government entirely"
Meanwhile, anti- heat protesters dressed in thick jumpers chanting "we can't breath" have marched on London, Big Ben has been removed and a giant Mint Feast put in its place by protesters.
The BBC reported earlier, "clearly the sun has come out and Downing street have done nothing to prevent it.
A second heat Wave is expected to hit the UK in 4 weeks time

Its only a joke... relax.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Stolen from elsewhere... but oh so true... I can hear the bleating hearts from here...

WARNING A SECOND HEATWAVE TO HIT THE UK

With highs of 33° expected AGAIN today, it's time to ask "could the government have done more?" Downing Street knew about this heatwave weeks ago and have done nothing. Shipments of 400,000 pairs of Speedos and 500,000 bikinis, sun cream and Cornettos have reportedly been sent back as unsafe after media claims the shipment was quarantined a month ago and Boris did nothing.
Karen from Chavington said, "We just don't know if it's safe to go outside and sunbathe because we can't function or think for ourselves. Boris hasn't told us either way and all my obese kids need ice cream and sweets, the Hubby can't get out to rob anyone so we're out of lager and weed, I blame the government entirely"
Meanwhile, anti- heat protesters dressed in thick jumpers chanting "we can't breath" have marched on London, Big Ben has been removed and a giant Mint Feast put in its place by protesters.
The BBC reported earlier, "clearly the sun has come out and Downing street have done nothing to prevent it.
A second heat Wave is expected to hit the UK in 4 weeks time

*Its only a joke*... relax.
		
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Barely.


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Barely.
		
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Really...

Maybe you need to loosen your bra strap and learn to compartmentalise. Life is full of negatives, if that’s what you want to wallow in.


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Stolen from elsewhere... but oh so true... I can hear the bleating hearts from here...

WARNING A SECOND HEATWAVE TO HIT THE UK

With highs of 33° expected AGAIN today, it's time to ask "could the government have done more?" Downing Street knew about this heatwave weeks ago and have done nothing. Shipments of 400,000 pairs of Speedos and 500,000 bikinis, sun cream and Cornettos have reportedly been sent back as unsafe after media claims the shipment was quarantined a month ago and Boris did nothing.
Karen from Chavington said, "We just don't know if it's safe to go outside and sunbathe because we can't function or think for ourselves. Boris hasn't told us either way and all my obese kids need ice cream and sweets, the Hubby can't get out to rob anyone so we're out of lager and weed, I blame the government entirely"
Meanwhile, anti- heat protesters dressed in thick jumpers chanting "we can't breath" have marched on London, Big Ben has been removed and a giant Mint Feast put in its place by protesters.
The BBC reported earlier, "clearly the sun has come out and Downing street have done nothing to prevent it.
A second heat Wave is expected to hit the UK in 4 weeks time

Its only a joke... relax.
		
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 It's the PM's fault for not listening to the flat earth supporters and tilting the world to get more shade.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Really...

Maybe you need to loosen your bra strap and learn to compartmentalise. Life is full of negatives, if that’s what you want to wallow in.
		
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It's exactly what he wallows in when the sarcasm suits.


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## Hobbit (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's exactly what he wallows in when the sarcasm suits.
		
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Mmm, he thinks that the forum should accept his foul language video posts as good humour, and thinly veils his sarcasm of those that don’t approve, citing fuddy duddy typical golf club members as Neanderthals.

There’s nothing really wrong with that but if he wants others to accept his humour maybe he needs to accept there’s other versions too.

Well, having met him.... never mind.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Really...

Maybe you need to loosen your bra strap and learn to compartmentalise. Life is full of negatives, if that’s what you want to wallow in.
		
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I know good right wing comedy is as rare as compassionate Tory home secretaries, but agree that every side deserves to be satirised. 

There's nothing wrong with some good biting satire, but frankly that was not that. Try Geoff Norcott, he takes the mickey out of liberals and lefties and is very funny at the same time.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, he thinks that the forum should accept his foul language video posts as good humour, and thinly veils his sarcasm of those that don’t approve, citing fuddy duddy typical golf club members as Neanderthals.

There’s nothing really wrong with that but if he wants others to accept his humour maybe he needs to accept there’s other versions too.

*Well, having met him.... never mind*.
		
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Classy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			It's the PM's fault for not listening to the flat earth supporters and tilting the world to get more shade.
		
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I suppose the implication behind the 'joke' is that the government can't do anything about global warming and the impact of it on our climate ...


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## Mudball (Aug 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suppose the implication behind the 'joke' is that the government can't do anything about global warming and the impact of it on our climate ...

Click to expand...

True... but the Govt’s smirked-in-chief has  got a problem when Mr Whippy ice cream shows more compassion than her


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 14, 2020)

Has the English education minister resigned yet due to fierce Tory/Labour Party criticism or does that criticism only apply in Scotland.


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## Mudball (Aug 15, 2020)

A Sunday morning-esq article on the nepotism of Gove.  Nothing surprising in here 

https://the-free-press.co.uk/2020/08/07/michael-gove-the-privileged-in-public-service/


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			A Sunday morning-esq article on the nepotism of Gove.  Nothing surprising in here

https://the-free-press.co.uk/2020/08/07/michael-gove-the-privileged-in-public-service/

Click to expand...

Historically has it been any different across various Governments?

The vast majority of awards go to people who deserve recognition.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			A Sunday morning-esq article on the nepotism of Gove.  Nothing surprising in here

https://the-free-press.co.uk/2020/08/07/michael-gove-the-privileged-in-public-service/

Click to expand...

Certainly nothing surprising in that article when you consider the stated left wing beliefs of the source.

It is a recent phenomenon in the media nowadays that there is no shortage of these types of publications. 

All espouse editorial independence and yet consistently present only one side of an argument .

No more balanced than the MSM who they hold in obvious contempt.


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## Mudball (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Certainly nothing surprising in that article when you consider the stated left wing beliefs of the source.

It is a recent phenomenon in the media nowadays that there is no shortage of these types of publications. 

All espouse editorial independence and yet consistently present only one side of an argument .

No more balanced than the MSM who they hold in obvious contempt.
		
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True... but does that absolve the perpetrators of such nepotism and cronyism??


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			True... but does that absolve the perpetrators of such nepotism and cronyism??
		
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Have either been proved?

If the accusations are found to be true then questions have to be asked and answered.

However, earlier in the pandemic there was an accusation of phony Twitter accounts being used by Department of Health. This was quickly jumped upon by many critics of the Government. 

Yet when the accuser was asked to produce evidence to substantiate the claim none was forthcoming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 17, 2020)

Where is he?  Holiday is great until you have a shambolic fiasco on the go and another in the offing - and your minions are desperate for leadership and direction.  Time to break the holiday methinks and for Johnson to some leading.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where is he?  Holiday is great until you have a shambolic fiasco on the go and another in the offing - and your minions are desperate for leadership and direction.  Time to break the holiday methinks and for Johnson to some leading.
		
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In a 5 star yurt somewhere on the Ardnamurchan peninsula if he had any sense.
Or prehaps he has rented rented Mrs May's Perthshire village hall.

Shame really, independence supporters were hoping that he would make many pubic appearances whilst in Scotland.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 18, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295473746162196482


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

Like any newspaper - sensationalist and looking to sell copies and get clicks on-line. Nothing to see here


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2020)

Farmer finds Boris camping illegally in a field and lighting dangerous camp fires. [next to his 3 bed holiday house]
How irresponsible for a British PM, really sets a bad example.
Farmer gives him his marching orders.

PS..... My Ardnamurchan location guess was not far out.


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## User62651 (Aug 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Farmer finds Boris camping illegally in a field and lighting dangerous camp fires. [next to his 3 bed holiday house]
How irresponsible for a British PM, really sets a bad example.
Farmer gives him his marching orders.

PS..... My Ardnamurchan location guess was not far out.
		
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Apparently had to cut short his holiday because the location has been rumbled by Daily Mail, open to snipers according to Independent. 
Bit odd, most PMs get a photo or two taken on holiday no problem, Dave Cam and mrs didn't seem to mind at all, Blair always did a few too. Would you really expect to keep a rural UK location totally secret in summer with a large police presence suddenly appearing. 

I think Farmer Cameron is trying his best to get a few quid off the papers. Canny crofter! Wild camping is ok as long as you dont damage crops. A campfire is also ok. I reckon there are no crops near Applecross, just very rough grazing that a tent or small fire would do nothing detrimental to. Has been a dry week until yesterday but July was a washout.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Seeing photos of our PM on holiday I am really not so sure that the 'Benny from Crossroads' slovenly look is particularly appropriate for our Prime Minister - frankly he looked a bit of a mess...and I was regularly reminded by my folks that how I dress reflects the state of my thinking...and they were right (my Mrs can attest to that)

OK - we used to slag off Cameron and Blair for their slacks and open shirts/polo shirts casual look when on holiday - but it was at least fitting (in more ways than one).  We can all dress-down and still dress tidily.

I suppose this is just his advisors latest wheeze to make Johnson appear to be 'a man of the people' - which of course started immediately he became PM and stood on the doorstep of #10 his shoes scruffy and unpolished...

Anyway - he tells he us is now back to take control of 'back to school' - and that is without doubt a good thing.  Someone with authority has to take the lead and responsibility.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seeing photos of our PM on holiday I am really not so sure that the 'Benny from Crossroads' slovenly look is particularly appropriate for our Prime Minister - frankly he looked a bit of a mess...and I was regularly reminded by my folks that how I dress reflects the state of my thinking...and they were right (my Mrs can attest to that)

OK - we used to slag off Cameron and Blair for their slacks and open shirts/polo shirts casual look when on holiday - but it was at least fitting (in more ways than one).  We can all dress-down and still dress tidily.

I suppose this is just his advisors latest wheeze to make Johnson appear to be 'a man of the people' - which of course started immediately he became PM and stood on the doorstep of #10 his shoes scruffy and unpolished...

Anyway - he tells he us is now back to take control of 'back to school' - and that is without doubt a good thing.  Someone with authority has to take the lead and responsibility.
		
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So now you're resporting to criticising the PM for dress code in what is PRIVATE time. I know a lot of people that will take a week off and not shave during that time so will grow a scruffy beard. Perhaps they should be ridiculed in public for being lazy and unkempt. It has diddly to do with his ability to run the country and I doubt very much it has anything to do with a "man of the people" wheeze. Just a poor post (imo) continuing a theme of ridiculing Johnson at every turn


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

Benny from Crossroads................
The Wee Jimmy Crankie haters will no like that,


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Benny from Crossroads................
The Wee Jimmy Crankie haters will no like that,

Click to expand...

So I’ve had plenty of complaints in the past from members in Scotland about references to Wee Jimmy in relation to Nicola Sturgeon.

But it’s obviously ok for a Scot to make the same reference.


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## Foxholer (Aug 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So I’ve had plenty of complaints in the past from members in Scotland about references to Wee Jimmy in relation to Nicola Sturgeon.

But it’s obviously ok for a Scot to make the same reference.
		
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Can't understand why anyone would make the connection!
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...C9F6AC&selectedIndex=5&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So I’ve had plenty of complaints in the past from members in Scotland about references to Wee Jimmy in relation to Nicola Sturgeon.

But it’s obviously ok for a Scot to make the same reference.
		
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It's surely OK to make comparisons when they are light-hearted or affectionate - rather less so when they are used in a disparaging way.  Benny from Crossroads was a lovable character...but he wasn't the Manager of the Crossroads Motel


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So now you're resporting to criticising the PM for dress code in what is PRIVATE time. I know a lot of people that will take a week off and not shave during that time so will grow a scruffy beard. Perhaps they should be ridiculed in public for being lazy and unkempt. It has diddly to do with his ability to run the country and I doubt very much it has anything to do with a "man of the people" wheeze. Just a poor post (imo) continuing a theme of ridiculing Johnson at every turn
		
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You think not?  I might disagree.  He is our Prime Minister - he is not just any old Joe taking a well deserved holiday.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So I’ve had plenty of complaints in the past from members in Scotland about references to Wee Jimmy in relation to Nicola Sturgeon.

But it’s obviously ok for a Scot to make the same reference.
		
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Surely it would only be wrong if it’s the same Scot who made the post was the one complaining in the past.

On another matter, in your experience as a Scout Master, does this fire look real to you?


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's surely OK to make comparisons when they are light-hearted or affectionate - rather less so when they are used in a disparaging way.  Benny from Crossroads was a lovable character...but he wasn't the Manager of the Crossroads Motel 

Click to expand...

No its not ok. There's nothing light hearted or affectionate in your criticisms of Boris and you know it. It says one hell of a lot about you that you'll throw out those criticisms and then try and row back from them time and time again. You remind me very much of my ex-mother-in-law. Sunday Christian pretending to be at one with society but full of bile and derision... the sort of thing you find under a stone, on a good day.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely it would only be wrong if it’s the same Scot who made the post was the one complaining in the past.

On another matter, in your experience as a Scout Master, does this fire look real to you?

View attachment 32149

Click to expand...

Looks like a pile of wood. Is there another photo with Boris stood next to it, validating it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			No its not ok. There's nothing light hearted or affectionate in your criticisms of Boris and you know it. It says one hell of a lot about you that you'll throw out those criticisms and then try and row back from them time and time again. You remind me very much of my ex-mother-in-law. Sunday Christian pretending to be at one with society but full of bile and derision... the sort of thing you find under a stone, on a good day.
		
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I jokingly likened our PM in his holiday attire to Benny from Crossroads.  I criticise him absolutely for his deceits, lies, manipulations and self-serving when these are used to influence and impact the public he is supposed to serve.  He might be a nice guy - but IMO he is unfit to be our Prime Minster.


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## chrisd (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I jokingly likened our PM in his holiday attire to Benny from Crossroads.  I criticise him absolutely for his deceits, lies, manipulations and self-serving when these are used to influence and impact the public he is supposed to serve.  He might be a nice guy - but IMO he is unfit to be our Prime Minster.
		
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Funny that we can receive infractions etc for " playing the man" but you, and certain other posters, continuously bait the trap 🤫🤫


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Funny that we can receive infractions etc for " playing the man" but you, and certain other posters, continuously bait the trap 🤫🤫
		
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No trap - just an opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Looks like a pile of wood. Is there another photo with Boris stood next to it, validating it?
		
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A pile of wood - some charred - and some stones.  But little sign of any damage to the grass...hmmm.


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## chrisd (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No trap - just an opinion.
		
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Tosh


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2020)

Finding it amusing that previously it has been forum acceptable to have Jezza's scruffbag image constantly highlighted... 
Yet, point out any unkemptness of Boris and it is tantamount to treason...


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely it would only be wrong if it’s the same Scot who made the post was the one complaining in the past.

On another matter, in your experience as a Scout Master, does this fire look real to you?

View attachment 32149

Click to expand...

Is say no
It’s a pile of rocks with some charred wood placed

Number of problems here
Firstly you generally don’t put rocks in fires, they can explode due to tiny air pockets in the rock.

Secondly the fire would have scorched the grass and wilted the buttercups

A proper pyromaniac would have removed the turf , stored it upside down, and returned after the fire is no longer needed.

The rocks aren’t charred or blackened

So I’m calling fake


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Looks like a pile of wood. Is there another photo with Boris stood next to it, validating it?
		
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Just the alleged tent and his alleged security guys dismantling it.👍🏻


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just the alleged tent and his alleged security guys dismantling it.👍🏻[/QUOTE

Not sure what it relates to , Boris’ holiday? ?
		
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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 25, 2020)

Apparently it was the area boris and family “camped” for 3 nights before the media found them and forced them to cut short his holiday.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 25, 2020)

I saw some pictures on Twitter , didn't look like a tent had been pitched as the grass wasn't flat.
Think they implied that the tent had been burnt.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apparently it was the area boris and family “camped” for 3 nights before the media found them and 
forced them to cut short his holiday.
View attachment 32160

Click to expand...

I see
Staged, grass isn’t compressed, it’s also not a very good site for a tent , bit slopey.
👍


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I see
Staged, grass isn’t compressed, it’s also not a very good site for a tent , *bit slopey*.
👍
		
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BoJo has been on a slippery slope for a long time.

BTW, I hope he gets involved and shows some compassion to our NHS heros
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ovid-19-lose-eligibility-for-welfare-benefits


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2020)

15 policy U-turns in 5 months, even Tory MPs are accusing him of making it up as he goes along.

*Those 15 U-turns in full*
*August 25* — Masks in schools: Education secretary Gavin Williamson’s U-turn came a day after he said: ‘We are not suggesting face coverings be used in schools.’

*Aug 21 *— Evictions: The government resisted calls to extend a ban on evicting private tenants until three days before it expired. It was extended on August 21 for four weeks.

*Aug 17* — A-level results: On August 13, Boris Johnson hailed this year’s A-level results. Mr Williamson vowed there would be ‘no U-turn’. On August 17, it was announced students would be given grades estimated by their teachers, rather than by an algorithm.

*July 24* — Masks in shops: Face coverings were made compulsory in shops despite deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries saying in April they ‘don’t help’.

*July 14 *— Huawei: The PM ordered all technology by the Chinese firm Huawei to be stripped from Britain’s 5G network — six months after giving the go-ahead for its involvement.

*June 18* — NHS tracing app: The app was announced on April 12 by health secretary Matt Hancock, who pledged it would be ‘crucial’. But on June 18, the project was abandoned, with Apple and Google taking over.

*June 16* — School meals voucher scheme: Footballer Marcus Rashford played a key role in forcing a U-turn on the government’s decision not to extend the children’s food voucher scheme into the summer holidays.

*June 9 *— Primary school return: In May, the government said it wanted all primary pupils to have four weeks in school before the holiday. The plan was scrapped amid social distancing fears.

*June 3* — Proxy voting: Parliament continued to meet during the epidemic, with MPs forced to turn up to cast their vote. After an outcry, proxy votes were allowed on June 3.

*May 28* — Contact tracing: The ‘contain phase’, where all contacts of infected people were traced, was abandoned on March 13. Contact tracing was brought back on May 28.

*May 21* — NHS surcharge for overseas health and care staff: Hours after the PM backed the fee, it was abolished for foreign health and care workers.

*May 20* — NHS bereavement scheme: After criticism that support staff were excluded from a scheme granting families of health workers who die from Covid-19 indefinite leave, they were included.

*April 15 *— Care homes: On February 25, Public Health England said it was unlikely care home residents would become infected. On April 15, hospitals were asked to ensure patients discharged to care homes were tested.

*April 5* — Herd immunity: In March, government advisers argued that the disease ‘needed’ to spread through the community. Chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said the ‘key thing’ was to ‘build up some herd immunity’. On April 5, the health secretary insisted that herd immunity was ‘not our policy’.

*March 23* — Lockdown: Countries across Europe went into lockdown but large public events, including the Cheltenham Festival, continued in the UK. Sir Patrick Vallance said mass gatherings ‘actually don’t make much difference’. The PM announced full lockdown on March 22, the day before it was brought in.


https://www.metro.news/i-am-concerned-we-just-keep-making-it-up-as-we-go-along/2126057/


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

I'd much rather a Government that changes with immediate needs than one that sticks its head in the sand and wont budge for fear of being called out for u turns 👍👍


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## Ethan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'd much rather a Government that changes with immediate needs than one that sticks its head in the sand and wont budge for fear of being called out for u turns 👍👍
		
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I'd rather have one that changes because they have realised their previous position was wrong (i.e. for the right reasons) than one that holds out until forced to cave by political pressure (the wrong reasons).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'd much rather a Government that changes with immediate needs than one that sticks its head in the sand and wont budge for fear of being called out for u turns 👍👍
		
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Which is fine ... as far as it goes.  But that government - when faced with a choice - will often make a strong case FOR the option they have chosen and at the same time make a strong case AGAINST the alternative.  We asked to understand and to buy into that decision-making and the rationale - but then the government switches to the alternative.  What are we supposed to think.  We're now being asked to buy into the approach that the government had us reject.  Confused?  That's not really great government.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I'd rather have one that changes because they have realised their previous position was wrong (i.e. for the right reasons) than one that holds out until forced to cave by political pressure (the wrong reasons).
		
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To be be fair Ethan you're going to have to wait some time for a quasi communist Labour Government of your choice 😉😉


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I'd rather have one that changes because they have realised their previous position was wrong (i.e. for the right reasons) than one that holds out until forced to cave by political pressure (the wrong reasons).
		
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or one which has the unhappy knack of choosing the wrong policy, then trying to defend the indefensible until they finally realise they have got it wrong (because the Daily Mail and their own backbenchers are telling them that). Masks in schools and the A-level algorithm disaster are good examples, the day before they changed their mind, Williamson and Johnson were robustly defending the status quo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'd much rather a Government that changes with immediate needs than one that sticks its head in the sand and wont budge for fear of being called out for u turns 👍👍
		
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I agree in principle, but how many u turns are acceptable before every decision is questioned or they become hesitant in making any decisions at all.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree in principle, but how many u turns are acceptable before every decision is questioned or they become hesitant in making any decisions at all.
		
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I dont see Boris & co being overly worried to make a u turn during an ever changing Covid pandemic and let's face it Paul, every decision is questioned by a biased media,  especially the BBC who put their anti Tory, pro remain, bias on every bulletin.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			To be be fair Ethan you're going to have to wait some time for a quasi communist Labour Government of your choice 😉😉
		
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Who would squeeze the pips out of people like him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			or one which has the unhappy knack of choosing the wrong policy, then trying to defend the indefensible until they finally realise they have got it wrong (because the Daily Mail and their own backbenchers are telling them that). Masks in schools and the A-level algorithm disaster are good examples, the day before they changed their mind, Williamson and Johnson were robustly defending the status quo.
		
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...as was their regular fall-guy Alok Sharma...

I almost feel sorry for the guy and others of his colleagues, given the number of times over the last months they have been put in front of a camera or a microphone and have stumbled answering questions put as they run through in their head what they have been told to say by Johnson - and most likely by Cummings - and try and make that fit (or not as the case often is) with the question.

Almost...


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## Ethan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			To be be fair Ethan you're going to have to wait some time for a quasi communist Labour Government of your choice 😉😉
		
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You reveal more of yourself than you do of me with that stupid comment. I don't want a quasi-communist Govt, not that a Labour Govt would be that anyway. 

Interesting that you associate making the right decision for the right reason with the left, though. Speaks volumes of the ethics of the right wing that you and your fanboy unthinkingly support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont see Boris & co being overly worried to make a u turn during an ever changing Covid pandemic and let's face it Paul, every decision is questioned by* a biased media,  especially the BBC who put their anti Tory, pro remain, bias on every bulletin.*

Click to expand...

Utter twaddle.  I watch Sky News and CH4 News as well as the BBC and I hear very little difference in their reporting of events.  But of course that doesn't suit the agenda.  Straight out of the Trump playbook.

It's as if the manic bias in the Tory and anti-EU newspaper press over the last 40yrs never happened, the bias that shaped the thinking of much of the electorate.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You reveal more of yourself than you do of me with that stupid comment. I don't want a quasi-communist Govt, not that a Labour Govt would be that anyway.

Interesting that you associate making the right decision for the right reason with the left, though. Speaks volumes of the ethics of the right wing that you and your fanboy unthinkingly support.
		
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Comedy gold as usual Ethan 😁😁


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So I’ve had plenty of complaints in the past from members in Scotland about references to Wee Jimmy in relation to Nicola Sturgeon.

But it’s obviously ok for a Scot to make the same reference.
		
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open the floodgates!


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's surely OK to make comparisons when they are light-hearted or affectionate - rather less so when they are used in a disparaging way.  Benny from Crossroads was a lovable character...but he wasn't the Manager of the Crossroads Motel 

Click to expand...

wee jimmy was a very loveable character that i grew up - you are down a dead end here!!


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You think not?  I might disagree.  He is our Prime Minister - he is not just any old Joe taking a well deserved holiday.
		
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so he has to dress in a shirt and tie and fresh shave everyday - pathetic and sanctamonious!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			wee jimmy was a very loveable character that i grew up - you are down a dead end here!!
		
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Indeed - but the comparison is not made in an affectionate way and you know that full well.  It is a piss-take.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Utter twaddle.  I watch Sky News and CH4 News as well as the BBC and I hear very little difference in their reporting of events.  But of course that doesn't suit the agenda.  Straight out of the Trump playbook.
		
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I occasionally do too and find their story lines often put in a biased way too. It seems that reporting these days is only done in a way to criticise and /or sensationalise whereas the BBC used to more just report the facts.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont see Boris & co being overly worried to make a u turn during an ever changing Covid pandemic and let's face it Paul, every decision is questioned by a biased media,  especially the BBC who put their anti Tory, pro remain, bias on every bulletin.
		
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Come on Chris, as I’ve and others have said the issue isn’t the actual u turns it’s the way they are making the decisions, defending them and then changing them, it’s embarrassing.

How many warnings/signs did they need over the a level/gcse results? 

As for blaming the media, pure deflection, that’s the go to, default action, it’s their behaviour that gives the media the opportunities.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so he has to dress in a shirt and tie and fresh shave everyday - pathetic and sanctamonious!!
		
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Well I'm glad you are proud to have as PM someone who seems happy to appear in front of cameras looking quite so dishevelled. I'm not.  Nothing sanctimonious about it.  Just a bit of respect for the position of Prime Minister.


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## rudebhoy (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont see Boris & co being overly worried to make a u turn during an ever changing Covid pandemic and let's face it Paul, every decision is questioned by a biased media,  especially the BBC who put their anti Tory, pro remain, bias on every bulletin.
		
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Funnily enough, I get annoyed watching the BBC News as in my opinion, they are far too soft on the government. If they are on at the same time, I watch ITN who are a lot more questioning of the government.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Chris, as I’ve and others have said the issue isn’t the actual u turns it’s the way they are making the decisions, defending them and then changing them, it’s embarrassing.

How many warnings/signs did they need over the a level/gcse results?

As for blaming the media, pure deflection, that’s the go to, default action, it’s their behaviour that gives the media the opportunities.
		
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They are making decisions on an ever changing situation and are criticised whatever, I would guess any Government would defend their decision to the hilt up to the point where circumstances dictate a change , they simply cant be wishy washy when the announce a policy.

The A level situation was a nightmare  to handle, and the changes that they were forced into were no more fair than the initial situation


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			They are making decisions on an ever changing situation and are criticised whatever, I would guess any Government would defend their decision to the hilt up to the point where circumstances dictate a change , they simply cant be wishy washy when the announce a policy.

The A level situation was a nightmare  to handle, and the changes that they were forced into were no more fair than the initial situation
		
Click to expand...

In some situations wishy washy would be better! ie “We’ve made the decision based on X, Y, Z, but will certainly review the situation should further information comes to light” etc

What we’re getting now is “No, No, No, decision made, we won’t be changing it” 24hrs later, complete reverse.

To repeat myself, no issue with them being flexible and making u turns were required, it’s the communication and possible decision making process they need to review.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			In some situations wishy washy would be better! ie “We’ve made the decision based on X, Y, Z, but will certainly review the situation should further information comes to light” etc

What we’re getting now is “No, No, No, decision made, we won’t be changing it” 24hrs later, complete reverse.

To repeat myself, no issue with them being flexible and making u turns were required, it’s the communication and possible decision making process they need to review.
		
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I'm fine with that Paul, no Government gets everything right and we can only truly judge them in hindsight.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm fine with that Paul, no Government gets everything right and we can only truly judge them in hindsight.
		
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Never said any Government does mate and I’m still of the opinion our present Government has got a lot right over the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised if they get some wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Funnily enough, I get annoyed watching the BBC News as in my opinion, they are far too soft on the government. If they are on at the same time, I watch ITN who are a lot more questioning of the government.
		
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I agree...which is why we watch Ch4 news as being the most likely to challenge and ask the difficult questions.  

Bit like why we don't get Government Ministers appearing on Newsnight, Today or CH4 News - whilst they will seemingly happily go on Nick Ferrari on LBC for interview.  That said Ferrari will press...but he does seem to ease off when he senses the minister is getting in a real mess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Never said any Government does mate and I’m still of the opinion our present Government has got a lot right over the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised if they get some wrong.
		
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...and criticised if they appear to be shirking their responsibilities or trying to shift the blame.  

They have indeed done plenty right - so it shouldn't be the end of the world to just admit when they got something wrong; say sorry if it made things difficult or worrying for anyone - and not always try and pretend they had no choice.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			They are making decisions on an ever changing situation and are criticised whatever, I would guess any Government would defend their decision to the hilt up to the point where circumstances dictate a change , they simply cant be wishy washy when the announce a policy.

The A level situation was a nightmare  to handle, and the changes that they were forced into were no more fair than the initial situation
		
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It wasn't the FACT that they reversed their decision! It was THE WAY/HOW they initially 'stood their ground', then reversed the decision! And that's been the case too often!
Had they stated 'at this point in time...' (a typical wordy political style for 'currently'!) '...we don't see any reason to ....' But No, that wasn't the how they announced their 'No Change' policy, before completely reversing that policy!

Btw. I agree re 'fairness' - even though I believe the algorithm was almost certainly correct - and (arguably) fair too! It was also totally predictable that it would downgrade results from State schools far more (if at all) than from 'Public' (actually Private) ones!

And, as politicians, they are in the business of being (arguably, if not altogether apparent) 'wishy-washy' when announcing policy! The words 'at this point in time' or 'currently' give them so much wiggle room for the obvious/inevitable reaction of those 'penalised' by their downgrading - certainly after everyone saw what happened in Scotland!


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and criticised if they appear to be shirking their responsibilities or trying to shift the blame. 

They have indeed done plenty right - so it shouldn't be the end of the world to just admit when they got something wrong; say sorry if it made things difficult or worrying for anyone - and not always try and pretend they had no choice.
		
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Never heard any government admit to being wrong. The main reason that those with no political alliance have become more disillusioned with politicians IMO.


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'd much rather a Government that changes with immediate needs than one that sticks its head in the sand and wont budge for fear of being called out for u turns 👍👍
		
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while i agree ... Just asking.. dont the Trump supporters also use the same argument about his ways....  Wear a mask or not, feed them dettol or not,   
... he is doing this because he is challenging norms and draining the swamp...  

.. as i said, i agree, i rather have them change than be adamant.  But the sheer number of U-turns is embarrassing.  Even when the first position was already explained to them, they would be bone headed and go the other way. only to come back.
..  Then like Trump, we do have BoJo using words like 'rouge algorithm', 'letterboxes' to sweep things away..


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			while i agree ... Just asking.. dont the Trump supporters also use the same argument about his ways....  Wear a mask or not, feed them dettol or not,  
... he is doing this because he is challenging norms and draining the swamp... 

.. as i said, i agree, i rather have them change than be adamant.  But the sheer number of U-turns is embarrassing.  Even when the first position was already explained to them, they would be bone headed and go the other way. only to come back.
..  Then like Trump, we do have BoJo using words like 'rouge algorithm', 'letterboxes' to sweep things away..
		
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There is one big difference for me, Boris is a real politician (even if you disagree with him) Trump is not a real politician.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



*There is one big difference for me, Boris is a real politician (even if you disagree with him) Trump is not a real politician*.
		
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I'd argue the definition of what is a 'real' politician, certainly in terms of competence and behaviors is changing rapidly before our eyes. There are many things that Boris (and others) do that, in the olden days, would have lead to them resigning or not being taken seriously.  The way we judge competence is getting a lot more lax.  And I'd argue, many are much more prepared to turn a blind eye and cut them a lot of slack (on both sides) as long as the politicians initially seem to be on 'our side'.

I agree that Trump is taking this to the extremes, but I hope that we as a nation have the common sense to not follow all the way down that path.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue the definition of what is a 'real' politician, certainly in terms of competence and behaviors is changing rapidly before our eyes. There are many things that Boris (and others) do that, in the olden days, would have lead to them resigning or not being taken seriously.  The way we judge competence is getting a lot more lax.  And I'd argue, many are much more prepared to turn a blind eye and cut them a lot of slack (on both sides) as long as the politicians initially seem to be on 'our side'.

I agree that Trump is taking this to the extremes, but I hope that we as a nation have the common sense to not follow all the way down that path.
		
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Say what you want, Boris was elected as an MP by his constituents, has held various positions in Government and been selected by his party to be Prime Minister - Trump is nowhere near the same level of political nouse and is only where he is because of his bank balance, he hasn't worked into the position. Boris is clearly a much more competent politician but obviously not your choice


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Say what you want, Boris was elected as an MP by his constituents, has held various positions in Government and been selected by his party to be Prime Minister - Trump is nowhere near the same level of political nouse and is only where he is because of his bank balance, he hasn't worked into the position. *Boris is clearly a much more competent politician* but obviously not your choice
		
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The bar could hardly be set any lower...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Say what you want, Boris was elected as an MP by his constituents, has held various positions in Government and been selected by his party to be Prime Minister - Trump is nowhere near the same level of political nouse and is only where he is because of his bank balance, he hasn't worked into the position. Boris is clearly a much more competent politician but obviously not your choice
		
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Yet time and time again on here we’ve heard and seen examples of posters saying you could put a dog/donkey/carrot in an election with a certain coloured rosette on and it would be elected.
Personally believe the system is broken on both sides of the atlantic and holding one person up against the other says more about the electorate than the elected.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I'm glad you are proud to have as PM someone who seems happy to appear in front of cameras looking quite so dishevelled. I'm not.  Nothing sanctimonious about it.  Just a bit of respect for the position of Prime Minister.
		
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you really are pathetic - having a go at the dress of a guy who is on holiday, still clearly unwell after nearly dying of covid and you mock him for his dress sense and appearance - absolutely pathetic. You need to have a long look in the Christian mirror!


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The bar could hardly be set any lower...

Click to expand...

Oh yes it could - it could have been Corbyn  😖


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yet time and time again on here we’ve heard and seen examples of posters saying you could put a dog/donkey/carrot in an election with a certain coloured rosette on and it would be elected.
Personally believe the system is broken on both sides of the atlantic and holding one person up against the other says more about the electorate than the elected.
		
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We didnt vote for the Prime Minister but the Americans did for their President


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Oh yes it could - it could have been Corbyn  😖
		
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But it isn't.  Though I might add - if it was Corbyn then Boris might still be tripping over it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			We didnt vote for the Prime Minister but the Americans did for their President
		
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Deflection mate? Who voted him in as an MP?


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			15 policy U-turns in 5 months, even Tory MPs are accusing him of making it up as he goes along.

*Those 15 U-turns in full*
*August 25* — Masks in schools: Education secretary Gavin Williamson’s U-turn came a day after he said: ‘We are not suggesting face coverings be used in schools.’

*Aug 21 *— Evictions: The government resisted calls to extend a ban on evicting private tenants until three days before it expired. It was extended on August 21 for four weeks.

*Aug 17* — A-level results: On August 13, Boris Johnson hailed this year’s A-level results. Mr Williamson vowed there would be ‘no U-turn’. On August 17, it was announced students would be given grades estimated by their teachers, rather than by an algorithm.

*July 24* — Masks in shops: Face coverings were made compulsory in shops despite deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries saying in April they ‘don’t help’.

*July 14 *— Huawei: The PM ordered all technology by the Chinese firm Huawei to be stripped from Britain’s 5G network — six months after giving the go-ahead for its involvement.

*June 18* — NHS tracing app: The app was announced on April 12 by health secretary Matt Hancock, who pledged it would be ‘crucial’. But on June 18, the project was abandoned, with Apple and Google taking over.

*June 16* — School meals voucher scheme: Footballer Marcus Rashford played a key role in forcing a U-turn on the government’s decision not to extend the children’s food voucher scheme into the summer holidays.

*June 9 *— Primary school return: In May, the government said it wanted all primary pupils to have four weeks in school before the holiday. The plan was scrapped amid social distancing fears.

*June 3* — Proxy voting: Parliament continued to meet during the epidemic, with MPs forced to turn up to cast their vote. After an outcry, proxy votes were allowed on June 3.

*May 28* — Contact tracing: The ‘contain phase’, where all contacts of infected people were traced, was abandoned on March 13. Contact tracing was brought back on May 28.

*May 21* — NHS surcharge for overseas health and care staff: Hours after the PM backed the fee, it was abolished for foreign health and care workers.

*May 20* — NHS bereavement scheme: After criticism that support staff were excluded from a scheme granting families of health workers who die from Covid-19 indefinite leave, they were included.

*April 15 *— Care homes: On February 25, Public Health England said it was unlikely care home residents would become infected. On April 15, hospitals were asked to ensure patients discharged to care homes were tested.

*April 5* — Herd immunity: In March, government advisers argued that the disease ‘needed’ to spread through the community. Chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said the ‘key thing’ was to ‘build up some herd immunity’. On April 5, the health secretary insisted that herd immunity was ‘not our policy’.

*March 23* — Lockdown: Countries across Europe went into lockdown but large public events, including the Cheltenham Festival, continued in the UK. Sir Patrick Vallance said mass gatherings ‘actually don’t make much difference’. The PM announced full lockdown on March 22, the day before it was brought in.


https://www.metro.news/i-am-concerned-we-just-keep-making-it-up-as-we-go-along/2126057/

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I’m surprised I haven’t cut my Tory party member card up with the rest of them. Utter embarrassment. 
I didn’t vote for a party or a chap that panders to the media, Sturgeon, lobbyists and tears of the left. 

Utter shambles.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Deflection mate? Who voted him in as an MP?
		
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His constituents,  so not you or me


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			His constituents,  so not you or me
		
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Same system, WE, belong to.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Same system, WE, belong to.

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Same as ??


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Say what you want, Boris was elected as an MP by his constituents, has held various positions in Government and been selected by his party to be Prime Minister - Trump is nowhere near the same level of political nouse and is only where he is because of his bank balance, he hasn't worked into the position.* Boris is clearly a much more competent politician* but obviously not your choice
		
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I would say he's clearly more of a better person in terms of character. Well most of the time. As for being a better 'politician' then it all depends on the criteria. As if Trump wins another 4 years then there is an argument he has succeeded as a politician in terms of getting in power and being able to forward their specific agenda.  Which to be honest is what politicians mostly crave nowadays anyway.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The bar could hardly be set any lower...

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Every little chance you get.
you and your sense of fair play have been quite accurately described.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Every little chance you get.
you and your sense of fair play have been quite accurately described.
		
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you'll have noted what I subsequently said about Boris vs Corbyn...besides - this a thread about Johnson - so what's the grouse?  And what's this about 'fair play' - Johnson is a deceitful liar...and that's not an opinion - it's a demonstrable fact.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Same as ??
		
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The system we have is that WE vote for the MP to represent us and not a vote for a PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			We didnt vote for the Prime Minister but the Americans did for their President
		
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Actually the American electorate didn't vote for Trump - they voted for Clinton by quite some margin (2.87million votes) - but Trump won the Electoral College.  Plus the representatives from each state comprising the Electoral College don't necessarily have to vote for the candidate who won their state.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The system we have is that WE vote for the MP to represent us and not a vote for a PM.
		
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That's the point isn't it, we vote for our MP and/or preferred party , the US voters are voting for their leader.


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## ger147 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That's the point isn't it, we vote for our MP and/or preferred party , the US voters are voting for their leader.
		
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More US voters voted for Clinton than Trump in 2016.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

ger147 said:



			More US voters voted for Clinton than Trump in 2016.
		
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That's a quirk of their system, my point was that the US vote for their president we vote for our MP


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## ger147 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That's a quirk of their system, my point was that the US vote for their president we vote for our MP
		
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Pretty big quirk!! The US voters voted for Clinton and they got Trump...


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Pretty big quirk!! The US voters voted for Clinton and they got Trump...
		
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If the voting system is based on different colleges rather than individual votes that's that!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That's the point isn't it, we vote for our MP and/or preferred party , the US voters are voting for their leader.
		
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But that’s the issue, in our system we can put a donkey in rosette in a safe seat and then end up with it as PM as WE have no say in it.
At least with Trump every voter had a choice.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But that’s the issue, in our system we can put a donkey in rosette in a safe seat and then end up with it as PM as WE have no say in it.
At least with Trump every voter had a choice.
		
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Would you prefer to choose a Prime Minister even though he might not represent the party in power?


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But that’s the issue, in our system we can put a donkey in rosette in a safe seat and then end up with it as PM as WE have no say in it.
At least with Trump every voter had a choice.
		
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Trouble is, we have close to 650 donkeys in Westminster these days. Not sure how we can ever get back to MPs who care more about the country than themselves. Perhaps by getting an electorate  that does first.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Pretty big quirk!! The US voters voted for Clinton and they got Trump...
		
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But that's the way many political elections work without proportional representation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Would you prefer to choose a Prime Minister even though he might not represent the party in power?
		
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It goes back to the standard of our MP’s and what we want as a Nation.

PM should always come from the Party in power.


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## Reemul (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But that’s the issue, in our system we can put a donkey in rosette in a safe seat and then end up with it as PM as WE have no say in it.
At least with Trump every voter had a choice.
		
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Every voter always has a choice, it is the same in the UK, if voters don't liked the leadership choice you won't win, look at Corbyn and labour.

Anyone that thinks the American system is better than ours and that someone getting 2.8 million less votes is a deserved winner, well what can you say....


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It goes back to the standard of our MP’s and what we want as a Nation.

PM should always come from the Party in power.
		
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And for that reason we dont choose the PM and, typically those who don't vote for a particular party don't tend to like the PM


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Every voter always has a choice, it is the same in the UK, if voters don't liked the leadership choice you won't win, look at Corbyn and labour.

Anyone that thinks the American system is better than ours and that someone getting 2.8 million less votes is a deserved winner, well what can you say....
		
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But it's not unlike our FPTP system. We vote for local MPs and the number of them is what creates Government not the overall number of votes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Every voter always has a choice, it is the same in the UK, if voters don't liked the leadership choice you won't win, look at Corbyn and labour.

Anyone that thinks the American system is better than ours and that someone getting 2.8 million less votes is a deserved winner, well what can you say....
		
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Never suggested the US system is better, just simply the fact the only people who have a say in who the actual PM in this Country is are those in that MP’s constituencey and as stated they tend to be in the safest of safe seats.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			And for that reason we dont choose the PM and, typically those who don't vote for a particular party don't tend to like the PM
		
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No it’s not Chris, many times this Country has ended up with PM’s who were not in charge when the election was called and we’ve had good and bad PM’s from all parties.

Not all points of view boil down to who you voted for.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No it’s not Chris, many times this Country has ended up with PM’s who were not in charge when the election was called and we’ve had good and bad PM’s from all parties.

Not all points of view boil down to who you voted for.
		
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Given we dont vote for the PM then we don't have any argument who we end up with, we just vote differently next time. Bear in mind there was talk that Boris could lose his constituency seat in the last election and we could therefore have ended up with a different PM. We know that before we vote


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Given we dont vote for the PM then we don't have any argument who we end up with, we just vote differently next time. Bear in mind there was talk that Boris could lose his constituency seat in the last election and we could therefore have ended up with a different PM. We know that before we vote
		
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Of course we have an argument, we want the best person, strong, a leader, etc, not a puppet or a gutless fall person.

You really have to stop believing everything you read in the papers.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course we have an argument, we want the best person, strong, a leader, etc, not a puppet or a gutless fall person.

You really have to stop believing everything you read in the papers.

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Only time will tell how Boris will be remembered in history,  he was only in serious power once elected with a decent majority and then coronavirus hit which has thrown everything up in the air. Believe me Paul I dont buy a paper!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Only time will tell how Boris will be remembered in history,  he was only in serious power once elected with a decent majority and then coronavirus hit which has thrown everything up in the air. Believe me Paul I dont buy a paper!
		
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Well his history up to now doesn’t seem to have stopped him.
But, if his MP’s decide they’ve had enough they can choose another PM without any say from the electorate, surely apart from illness, if we lose a PM it should mean a GE and that goes for whoever Party is in power and should of happened when Blair left.


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## chrisd (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well his history up to now doesn’t seem to have stopped him.
But, if his MP’s decide they’ve had enough they can choose another PM without any say from the electorate, surely apart from illness, if we lose a PM it should mean a GE and that goes for whoever Party is in power and should of happened when Blair left.
		
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But his history up to now is that some dislike him and others like him, and anyway I hope no one sees Starmer as an acceptable alternative. Given we only vote for our constituency MP then the PM can come and go whenever and there is no requirement for a GE and, imo, nor should there be.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 28, 2020)

The party leader is the person who the electorate see and the press focus on, the local mp may have a following but if they don’t have any thing to offer they are dismissed and the electorate look at the party leader.

No one talked about how good some of the labour mps were they just discussed Corbin or Abbot ... it is what the London press feed them.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 28, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			The party leader is the person who the electorate see and the press focus on, the local mp may have a following but if they don’t have any thing to offer they are dismissed and the electorate look at the party leader.

No one talked about how good some of the labour mps were they just discussed Corbin or Abbot ... it is what the London press feed them.
		
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the labour administartion were full of Corbyn cronies - the only decent one amont them was Tom watson and he was forced out by the Troskyite mafia! 

Mind, i am not going to bang on about quality in the current Tory party as it is not exactly brimming with talent - and Gavin Williamson should have fallen on the sword weeks ago - very unimpressed with him!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			But his history up to now is that some dislike him and others like him, and anyway I hope no one sees Starmer as an acceptable alternative. Given we only vote for our constituency MP then the PM can come and go whenever and there is no requirement for a GE and, imo, nor should there be.
		
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Keep on track Chris this is a thread about boris, feel free to start a new one on Starmer to save being accussed of deflection.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Trouble is, we have close to 650 donkeys in Westminster these days. *Not sure how we can ever get back to MPs who care more about the country than themselves. Perhaps by getting an electorate  that does first.*

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I'd argue it is down the parties a lot as well.  We used to have a really good Labour constituency MP who seemingly had little ambition to rise up the political ladder, but was very good for his local constituents. We then had Soubry who despite her many faults, at least gave the impression she was interested in her constituents.  We now have a conservative MP who fits the required Brexit related profile of the rebranded Tory party, was parachuted in to the area and who is essentially a party lapdog. 

For example in the recent furore over the A levels he said nothing when it was going on, the silence was deafening.  And then literally a few minutes after the U turn on using the centre assessed grades, out comes a tweet and he's on local media expressing sympathy with the students, saying the new system is much fairer, the students deserve better blah blah blah.  And you just think, where was this sympathy and empathy for the students before the announcement was made?  And he just comes across as cynical and a mouthpiece for the party.  I accept that MPs mostly have to tow the party line, but it seems with more and more MPs on both sides its the party line 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th with their constituents needs after that. And if that is your choice on the ballot box then what can the electorate do?


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## harpo_72 (Aug 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the labour administartion were full of Corbyn cronies - the only decent one amont them was Tom watson and he was forced out by the Troskyite mafia!

Mind, i am not going to bang on about quality in the current Tory party as it is not exactly brimming with talent - and Gavin Williamson should have fallen on the sword weeks ago - very unimpressed with him!!
		
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Pretty much the point .. the press highlighted and portrayed certain mps a certain way and influenced the election. I am sure also their are decent Tory politicians, but they may not fit Boris’ agenda. The electorate voted for Boris, and his position as pm was cemented on that vote. So like it or not mps like Gav, are what the majority want if he has the backing of Boris.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue it is down the parties a lot as well.  We used to have a really good Labour constituency MP who seemed had little ambition to rise up the political ladder, but did what he could for his constituents. We then had Soubry who despite her many faults, at least gave the impression she was interested in her constituents.  We now have a conservative MP who fits the required Brexit related profile of the rebranded Tory party, was parachuted in to the area and who is essentially a party lapdog. 

For example in the recent furore over the A levels he said nothing when it was going on, the silence was deafening.  And then literally a few minutes after the U turn on using the centre assessed grades, out comes a tweet and he's on local media expressing sympathy with the students, saying the new system is much fairer, the students deserve better blah blah blah.  And you just think, where was this sympathy and empathy for the students before the announcement was made?  And he just comes across as cynical and a mouthpiece for the party.  I accept that MPs mostly have to tow the party line, but it seems with more and more MPs on both sides its the party line 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th with their constituents needs after that. And if that is your choice on the ballot box then what can the electorate do?
		
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This pretty much is where British politics has got to... we have politicians who have no life experiences and are just people who seek power .. kind of expected given Instagram Tik tok Facebook etc ... is the go to method of making money.


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			And if that is your choice on the ballot box then what can the electorate do?
		
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There’s always stand, personally I would love to see everyone support and help Independent candidates but to many still vote on how their old man did.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There’s always stand, personally I would love to see everyone support and help Independent candidates but to many still vote on how their old man did.
		
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I think unless they are standing on a very specific local area issue then independents just will not get the media exposure needed to run a successful campaign.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			But his history up to now is that some dislike him and others like him, and anyway *I hope no one sees Starmer as an acceptable alternative*. ...
		
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Pray tell why not?
Certainly Corbyn was unelectable, but Starmer seems far more 'moderate' to me!


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Pray tell why not?
Certainly Corbyn was unelectable, but Starmer seems far more 'moderate' to me!
		
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I think Starmer is a canny politician and has played it well so far, letting Johnson's screw ups play out without providing a distraction. He is also good on logic, facts and calm reason, none of which Johnson does too well. 

It is a long way between that and a viable future Govt, though.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2020)

We get the politicians we deserve.  If the population must have a Country/World where freedom of speech is no longer desired, where we are all expected to have homogenoeus views that conform to the PC rules of the thought police then our Parliament becomes a pool of grey soup where everyone is scared of making policy as someone somewhere may be offended by it.


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## chrisd (Aug 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Pray tell why not?
Certainly Corbyn was unelectable, but Starmer seems far more 'moderate' to me!
		
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Largely because he's the Labour Party leader  😁😁


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think unless they are standing on a very specific local area issue then independents just will not get the media exposure needed to run a successful campaign.
		
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I think that in these days of the internet anything is possible but unfortunately most people are to apathetic to try anything outside of what we have always done. 2 1/4 party politics is rubbish here or in any country these days, even proportional representation doesn’t work IMO.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Largely because he's the Labour Party leader  😁😁
		
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Figured that was the most likely reason!  Fair enough.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Largely because he's the Labour Party leader  😁😁
		
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OK, blind visceral hatred, then.

Do you not think that any Govt needs an effective opposition to keep it honest?


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, blind visceral hatred, then.
		
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From a few on both sides


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			From a few on both sides
		
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No, in fact I would like to see a sensible and reasonable leader of the Tory Party, and therefore Govt, rather than the current guy. He has led to the deaths of many more people than there should have been, and is about to deepen the economic crisis for all of us. There is no joy of schadenfreude in that.

By the way, I didn't vote Labour at either of the last 2 elections. I will consider to at the next depending how Starmer does.

I can list the reasons I don't support Johnson, and you can tell me what he has done well in your opinion, we can debate them. Or you can just throw whatabouttery instead, I suppose.


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## chrisd (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, blind visceral hatred, then.

Do you not think that any Govt needs an effective opposition to keep it honest?
		
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No real  difference to your hatred for Conservatives and Brexit voters

Yes, I do think an effective opposition us essential,  however i dont see one at the moment


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No real  difference to your hatred for Conservatives and Brexit voters

Yes, I do think an effective opposition us essential,  however i dont see one at the moment
		
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Wrong, I don't hate Conservative voters or Brexit voters, I hate Conservative policies as practiced by the current, especially on Covid, which has been a series of unmitigated disasters, and Brexit which is going to kick the crutches away from the crippled UK economy.

I agree there is not an effective opposition at present, although I think Starmer is potentially good. He seems to be staying quiet and let Johnson deal with his self-inflicted screw ups without too much comment. He must have read The Art Of War. Some Labour purple haven't read it, so like internal divisions more than opposition, though.


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, in fact I would like to see a sensible and reasonable leader of the Tory Party, and therefore Govt, rather than the current guy. He has led to the deaths of many more people than there should have been, and is about to deepen the economic crisis for all of us. There is no joy of schadenfreude in that.

By the way, I didn't vote Labour at either of the last 2 elections. I will consider to at the next depending how Starmer does.

I can list the reasons I don't support Johnson, and you can tell me what he has done well in your opinion, we can debate them. Or you can just throw whatabouttery instead, I suppose.
		
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I didn’t point a finger at anyone in particular but feel free to go straight into attack mod, I’m not a lover of anyone in government or the current political situation in either side of the spectrum. Starmer has to deal with a major uprising with momentum at present with the NEC elections and it wouldn’t surprise me if we are looking at the birth of another party.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I didn’t point a finger at anyone in particular but feel free to go straight into attack mod, I’m not a lover of anyone in government or the current political situation in either side of the spectrum. Starmer has to deal with a major uprising with momentum at present with the NEC elections and it wouldn’t surprise me if we are looking at the birth of another party.
		
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A Labour split was rumoured around the time Tom Watson split off, with the centre-right possibly lining up with Chuka Umunna and that lot, but they are all gone now, so that isn't going to happen. My preference would be for the Corbynistas to split off into Continuity Corbyn or something and let the Starmer wing reshape Labour. Probably means losing another election, but otherwise Labour is never going to be in power.


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			A Labour split was rumoured around the time Tom Watson split off, with the centre-right possibly lining up with Chuka Umunna and that lot, but they are all gone now, so that isn't going to happen. My preference would be for the Corbynistas to split off into Continuity Corbyn or something and let the Starmer wing reshape Labour. Probably means losing another election, but otherwise Labour is never going to be in power.
		
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I follow momentum on tweeter and there is a major effort to rally the troops. I agree that if they feel they have the necessary  support they should form their own party.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, in fact I would like to see a sensible and reasonable leader of the Tory Party, and therefore Govt, rather than the current gu*y. He has led to the deaths of many more people than there should have been, and is about to deepen the economic crisis for all of us*. There is no joy of schadenfreude in that.

By the way, I didn't vote Labour at either of the last 2 elections. I will consider to at the next depending how Starmer does.

I can list the reasons I don't support Johnson, and you can tell me what he has done well in your opinion, we can debate them. Or you can just throw whatabouttery instead, I suppose.
		
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That is easy for you to say. A generalised statement based on party politics, I suspect.
Why don't you tell us how you would have handled this crisis then, if you can be fairminded enough to do it without hindsight. There are many stages where action was required( anadromous was taken by HM government) but nowhere have I seen what you say should have been done based on information at the time.
We all, including the PM , would concede that with hindsight, things could and should have been done differently, but no one has that luxury.
I cannot see any Prime Minister, of whatever party, doing things he knows should not have been done, in this Covid matter.
To suggest otherwise, which your statement does, is not worthy of you.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That is easy for you to say. A generalised statement based on party politics, I suspect.
Why don't you tell us how you would have handled this crisis then, if you can be fairminded enough to do it without hindsight. There are many stages where action was required( anadromous was taken by HM government) but nowhere have I seen what you say should have been done based on information at the time.
We all, including the PM , would concede that with hindsight, things could and should have been done differently, but no one has that luxury.
I cannot see any Prime Minister, of whatever party, doing things he knows should not have been done, in this Covid matter.
To suggest otherwise, which your statement does, is not worthy of you.
		
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Spare me the hindsight argument. Plenty of strong advice was offered to this Govt prospectively and repeatedly at the time as they got a preview of what was about to happen by looking at Italy and there places. Most of this advice essentially boiled down to taking a traditional tried and tested public health approach. 

You are also making a political point as an apologist for the Govt, so not to prolong the inevitable interminable back and forth of cherrypicked points, I will just mention a few things. This is not intended to be comprehensive, just illustrative. 

1. Failure to lock down fast enough. It was clear that the rising toll of disease in Italy was going to happen here. We should have closed down sooner, as advocated by many public health experts, including WHO, and we should have imposed a quarantine for all incoming travellers. If done effectively and in a  timely manner, this would have reduced the amount of virus that entered the country. Johnson's advice not to go to the pub was a good example of his fecklessness. Even his own Dad said he would not follow it. 

2. Stopping testing in the community and tracing on Match 12th was a terrible mistake, and widely condemned at the time. We should have done precisely the opposite, scale up testing and tracing (they can be done separately) using existing PHE resources as well as healthcare staff seconded from other activities. And then starting up NHS Test and Trace with the serial failure Dido Harding and well known incompetents Serco was foreseeably a disaster. Indeed, almost all the stuff they claimed credit for was actually done by local PHE. Which Johnson then scrapped. 

3. Basing the strategy on a herd immunity plan, using mathematical modelling and behavioural psychology. There are two problems with this. One is that herd immunity was not known to be achievable in this biases, we didn't know if immunity was conferred after exposure, and the price to pay was obviously a he death toll. Protecting the elderly was always impossible because the whole thing would take months to play out. Second was that the mathematical modelling was, fundamentally, based on data that was unreliable, and the behavioural psychology argument that lockdown fatigue would occur delayed lockdown and was later proven wrong anyway. 

4. The NHS. Pandemic planning is a responsibility of central Govt. The lessons of the 2016 pandemic planning were not put into practice. The UK was consequently slow to get on board on PPE and ventilators, and Brexit ideology cant they would not work with the EU, and lied about being invited to do so. NHS staff did not have the PPE they needed, the Govt sneakily and quietly downgraded the legal classification of Covid from a High Consequence Infectious Disease so that they could soften PPE requirements. They put NHS staff in harms way and offered them a round of applause as thanks. They issued advice to move care home patients out of hospitals without tests and thereby put the virus into the care homes, which also did not have adequate PPE or access to tests until too late. 

5. The whole response has been characterised by ideological considerations, ranging from throwing vast amounts of money for PPE, ventilators, lab testing, tracing and data services to private companies, donors and mates. Money has been squandered on companies which were obviously unqualified, totally unsuitable and incompetent for the task and public services, academia and other cheaper options with capabilities were ignored. Another aspect of ideology has been the fear of being seen to impose unpopular regulations. That ranged from the initial confused lockdown regulations, left to local police forces to interpret differently in different places, to the unwillingness to impose masks because of opposition from some of the Tory backbenchers. This is all mainly a question of leadership, which Johnson does not do very well. 

There are many more issues and points, some big picture strategy, some local policy. On the doctors social media site which I frequent, and where many of the participants are usually much more supportive of the Govt than I am, and many are front line docs who have seen cases, including in the ICU at St Thomas's, there are few who think the Govt has not made a complete balls up of the whole thing. 

Germany basically did everything the UK should have done, had prepared from previous epidemics, moved quickly and locked down hard, tested widely and traced carefully. It wasn't rocket science. Their per capita death rate is less than a fifth of ours. The basic principles are simple. Stop the virus getting in, stop it moving around. If you do the first one well, the second one looks after itself. 

I make no apology for saying, and I restate, that Govt incompetence on handling Covid has cost lives. Sorry if you don't agree, but if not, please explain why the excess deaths in the UK are one of the highest per capita in the world, and provide a comprehensive rebuttal of my points rather than selecting a few phrases.


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## 4LEX (Aug 29, 2020)

I think that's a brilliant post, Ethan. 

I almost lost a relative due to hospitals dumping older patients in care homes without testing. That move alone has contributed to a high number of total deaths.

Yes theres an small element of hindsight that can applied but it's the job of a wealthy and well run country to have plans in place. The government have handled this situation woefully from the start. Even the furlough scheme was far too generous and has propped up failing businesses, as well let fraudsters run amok with bounceback loans.


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Spare me the hindsight argument. Plenty of strong advice was offered to this Govt prospectively and repeatedly at the time as they got a preview of what was about to happen by looking at Italy and there places. Most of this advice essentially boiled down to taking a traditional tried and tested public health approach.

You are also making a political point as an apologist for the Govt, so not to prolong the inevitable interminable back and forth of cherrypicked points, I will just mention a few things. This is not intended to be comprehensive, just illustrative.

1. Failure to lock down fast enough. It was clear that the rising toll of disease in Italy was going to happen here. We should have closed down sooner, as advocated by many public health experts, including WHO, and we should have imposed a quarantine for all incoming travellers. If done effectively and in a  timely manner, this would have reduced the amount of virus that entered the country. Johnson's advice not to go to the pub was a good example of his fecklessness. Even his own Dad said he would not follow it.

2. Stopping testing in the community and tracing on Match 12th was a terrible mistake, and widely condemned at the time. We should have done precisely the opposite, scale up testing and tracing (they can be done separately) using existing PHE resources as well as healthcare staff seconded from other activities. And then starting up NHS Test and Trace with the serial failure Dido Harding and well known incompetents Serco was foreseeably a disaster. Indeed, almost all the stuff they claimed credit for was actually done by local PHE. Which Johnson then scrapped.

3. Basing the strategy on a herd immunity plan, using mathematical modelling and behavioural psychology. There are two problems with this. One is that herd immunity was not known to be achievable in this biases, we didn't know if immunity was conferred after exposure, and the price to pay was obviously a he death toll. Protecting the elderly was always impossible because the whole thing would take months to play out. Second was that the mathematical modelling was, fundamentally, based on data that was unreliable, and the behavioural psychology argument that lockdown fatigue would occur delayed lockdown and was later proven wrong anyway.

4. The NHS. Pandemic planning is a responsibility of central Govt. The lessons of the 2016 pandemic planning were not put into practice. The UK was consequently slow to get on board on PPE and ventilators, and Brexit ideology cant they would not work with the EU, and lied about being invited to do so. NHS staff did not have the PPE they needed, the Govt sneakily and quietly downgraded the legal classification of Covid from a High Consequence Infectious Disease so that they could soften PPE requirements. They put NHS staff in harms way and offered them a round of applause as thanks. They issued advice to move care home patients out of hospitals without tests and thereby put the virus into the care homes, which also did not have adequate PPE or access to tests until too late.

5. The whole response has been characterised by ideological considerations, ranging from throwing vast amounts of money for PPE, ventilators, lab testing, tracing and data services to private companies, donors and mates. Money has been squandered on companies which were obviously unqualified, totally unsuitable and incompetent for the task and public services, academia and other cheaper options with capabilities were ignored. Another aspect of ideology has been the fear of being seen to impose unpopular regulations. That ranged from the initial confused lockdown regulations, left to local police forces to interpret differently in different places, to the unwillingness to impose masks because of opposition from some of the Tory backbenchers. This is all mainly a question of leadership, which Johnson does not do very well.

There are many more issues and points, some big picture strategy, some local policy. On the doctors social media site which I frequent, and where many of the participants are usually much more supportive of the Govt than I am, and many are front line docs who have seen cases, including in the ICU at St Thomas's, there are few who think the Govt has not made a complete balls up of the whole thing.

Germany basically did everything the UK should have done, had prepared from previous epidemics, moved quickly and locked down hard, tested widely and traced carefully. It wasn't rocket science. Their per capita death rate is less than a fifth of ours. The basic principles are simple. Stop the virus getting in, stop it moving around. If you do the first one well, the second one looks after itself.

I make no apology for saying, and I restate, that Govt incompetence on handling Covid has cost lives. Sorry if you don't agree, but if not, please explain why the excess deaths in the UK are one of the highest per capita in the world, and provide a comprehensive rebuttal of my points rather than selecting a few phrases.
		
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Can we make the above a sticky please - so that it pops up with every new post in this (and, probably more appropriately, the 'Covid Political') thread?!


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## Old Skier (Aug 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Can we make the above a sticky please - so that it pops up with every new post in this (and, probably more appropriately, the 'Covid Political') thread?!
		
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Why, it’s based on an opinion rather than the advise, right or wrong, delivered by scientists.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Spare me the hindsight argument. Plenty of strong advice was offered to this Govt prospectively and repeatedly at the time as they got a preview of what was about to happen by looking at Italy and there places. Most of this advice essentially boiled down to taking a traditional tried and tested public health approach.

You are also making a political point as an apologist for the Govt, so not to prolong the inevitable interminable back and forth of cherrypicked points, I will just mention a few things. This is not intended to be comprehensive, just illustrative.

1. Failure to lock down fast enough. It was clear that the rising toll of disease in Italy was going to happen here. We should have closed down sooner, as advocated by many public health experts, including WHO, and we should have imposed a quarantine for all incoming travellers. If done effectively and in a  timely manner, this would have reduced the amount of virus that entered the country. Johnson's advice not to go to the pub was a good example of his fecklessness. Even his own Dad said he would not follow it.

2. Stopping testing in the community and tracing on Match 12th was a terrible mistake, and widely condemned at the time. We should have done precisely the opposite, scale up testing and tracing (they can be done separately) using existing PHE resources as well as healthcare staff seconded from other activities. And then starting up NHS Test and Trace with the serial failure Dido Harding and well known incompetents Serco was foreseeably a disaster. Indeed, almost all the stuff they claimed credit for was actually done by local PHE. Which Johnson then scrapped.

3. Basing the strategy on a herd immunity plan, using mathematical modelling and behavioural psychology. There are two problems with this. One is that herd immunity was not known to be achievable in this biases, we didn't know if immunity was conferred after exposure, and the price to pay was obviously a he death toll. Protecting the elderly was always impossible because the whole thing would take months to play out. Second was that the mathematical modelling was, fundamentally, based on data that was unreliable, and the behavioural psychology argument that lockdown fatigue would occur delayed lockdown and was later proven wrong anyway.

4. The NHS. Pandemic planning is a responsibility of central Govt. The lessons of the 2016 pandemic planning were not put into practice. The UK was consequently slow to get on board on PPE and ventilators, and Brexit ideology cant they would not work with the EU, and lied about being invited to do so. NHS staff did not have the PPE they needed, the Govt sneakily and quietly downgraded the legal classification of Covid from a High Consequence Infectious Disease so that they could soften PPE requirements. They put NHS staff in harms way and offered them a round of applause as thanks. They issued advice to move care home patients out of hospitals without tests and thereby put the virus into the care homes, which also did not have adequate PPE or access to tests until too late.

5. The whole response has been characterised by ideological considerations, ranging from throwing vast amounts of money for PPE, ventilators, lab testing, tracing and data services to private companies, donors and mates. Money has been squandered on companies which were obviously unqualified, totally unsuitable and incompetent for the task and public services, academia and other cheaper options with capabilities were ignored. Another aspect of ideology has been the fear of being seen to impose unpopular regulations. That ranged from the initial confused lockdown regulations, left to local police forces to interpret differently in different places, to the unwillingness to impose masks because of opposition from some of the Tory backbenchers. This is all mainly a question of leadership, which Johnson does not do very well.

There are many more issues and points, some big picture strategy, some local policy. On the doctors social media site which I frequent, and where many of the participants are usually much more supportive of the Govt than I am, and many are front line docs who have seen cases, including in the ICU at St Thomas's, there are few who think the Govt has not made a complete balls up of the whole thing.

Germany basically did everything the UK should have done, had prepared from previous epidemics, moved quickly and locked down hard, tested widely and traced carefully. It wasn't rocket science. Their per capita death rate is less than a fifth of ours. The basic principles are simple. Stop the virus getting in, stop it moving around. If you do the first one well, the second one looks after itself.

I make no apology for saying, and I restate, that Govt incompetence on handling Covid has cost lives. Sorry if you don't agree, but if not, please explain why the excess deaths in the UK are one of the highest per capita in the world, and provide a comprehensive rebuttal of my points rather than selecting a few phrases.
		
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Germany has one of the largest concentration of medical companies with inventory.

Every year people die because of lack  of spending on health; many because they chose a way of life that is unwise (smoking, drunkeness, etc). Consequently after every and any economic decision/choice made by any Government you can claim and blame it is the fault of a PM. It has been the same for almost a century.

'Excess' deaths may be caused by many variables: poor health, poor housing, stupidity, the UK as a hub of international travel, high density population, multi-racial demographic, as well as the impact of _COVID_ . Most of the extraneous variables will have a very long gestation period - certainly longer than the PM's 12 months in post.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Germany has one of the largest concentration of medical companies with inventory.

Every year people die because of lack  of spending on health; many because they chose a way of life that is unwise (smoking, drunkeness, etc). Consequently after every and any economic decision/choice made by any Government you can claim and blame it is the fault of a PM. It has been the same for almost a century.

'Excess' deaths may be caused by many variables: poor health, poor housing, stupidity, the UK as a hub of international travel, high density population, multi-racial demographic, as well as the impact of _COVID_ . Most of the extraneous variables will have a very long gestation period - certainly longer than the PM's 12 months in post.
		
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The UK has a lot of 'medical companies', as well as a lot of reserve in academia for testing. This went unused and ignored.

The determinants of health are not very different between Germany and the UK, Germany has a higher rate of smoking, the UK  higher rate of obesity, age structures are similar. Not much to choose between, and no reason to believe there should be such a gross difference in either base death rates or excess deaths.

The effects of provision of healthcare are much more responsive than determinants of health, and the UK badly failed on that, with aspects of healthcare outside Covid paralysed. Many of these deaths have a very short gestation period.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The UK has a lot of 'medical companies', as well as a lot of reserve in academia for testing. This went unused and ignored.

The determinants of health are not very different between Germany and the UK, Germany has a higher rate of smoking, the UK  higher rate of obesity, age structures are similar. Not much to choose between, and no reason to believe there should be such a gross difference in either base death rates or excess deaths.

The effects of provision of healthcare are much more responsive than determinants of health, and the UK badly failed on that, with aspects of healthcare outside Covid paralysed. Many of these deaths have a very short gestation period.
		
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I agree there's a debate to be had on the points you make which I do believe aren't quite as black and white as you suggest.

My main issue was your determination to lay blame on this PM when the capability/response lead times were set way before his tenure. In a market led economy such comments can always be made (to a greater or lesser degree) on any decision maker - "guns n butter" etc.

The NHS staff make 'value for money' v the 'value of life' decisions all the time.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree there's a debate to be had on the points you make which I do believe aren't quite as black and white as you suggest.

My main issue was your determination to lay blame on this PM when the capability/response lead times were set way before his tenure. In a market led economy such comments can always be made (to a greater or lesser degree) on any decision maker - "guns n butter" etc.

The NHS staff make 'value for money' v the 'value of life' decisions all the time.
		
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My argument is that the social determinants of health do not explain differences in the performance of different European countries. The differences lie mostly with the political response.

For a pandemic like this, there are basically two main objectives. 1. Keep the virus out. 2. Contain whatever virus gets in. This is old school public health that goes back to ancient times before anyone even knew how infections occurred.

The UK dropped the ball on both. A firmer and faster lockdown, including quarantining inbound travellers would have had a greater impact on keeping the virus out, then the task of containing the virus is proportionate to how much gets in, and we did not do well on that either. There is no debate over whether Johnson ordered stopping community testing on March 12th, he did. That was a ghastly error which not only failed to take WHO advise but went in the precisely opposite direction. Then the pitiful NHS Test and Trace was always going to fail because tracing is not a call centre algorithm task. We lost control during that time. 

There were other problems, and various explanations and debates why some of those decisions were taken, e.g. herd immunity but basically the UK's worse performance tracks directly to failing to keep the virus out, then failing to get control of it fast enough.

The social determinants of health, smoking, diabetes, obesity etc all have a role in the outcomes of infection in individual patients, but stopping infection from occurring in the first place is the policy objective.


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## User62651 (Aug 29, 2020)

Encouraging news! The Boris BS is wearing too thin. How long till he is politely asked to stand aside? We need real leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umps-in-shock-poll?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


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## Kaz (Aug 29, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Encouraging news! The Boris BS is wearing too thin. How long till he is politely asked to stand aside? We need real leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umps-in-shock-poll?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Click to expand...

Haven't they heard that no government could have done any better?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Encouraging news! The Boris BS is wearing too thin. How long till he is politely asked to stand aside? We need real leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umps-in-shock-poll?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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In your dreams


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Encouraging news! The Boris BS is wearing too thin. How long till he is politely asked to stand aside? We need real leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umps-in-shock-poll?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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Latest news that he lied about his holiday cottage fiasco will not help him.
It was booked for 3 days, the amount of time he spent there.
So the leaving early story because of SNP Badddddddddddd was just a load of bullpoo.


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2020)

So Sunak proposing tax rises, raids on second homes, pension pots to pay for the corona deficit. Unless Boris steps in, Sunak is turning into a Corbyn 

Hopefully this is not a u-turn on the Tory idea of low tax


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So Sunak proposing tax rises, raids on second homes, pension pots to pay for the corona deficit. Unless Boris steps in, Sunak is turning into a Corbyn 

Hopefully this is not a u-turn on the Tory idea of low tax
		
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Hopefully this is a Tory government if fair tax ..


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Hopefully this is a Tory government if fair tax ..
		
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Sounds like a good idea... won’t be such a good idea under Labour


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So Sunak proposing tax rises, raids on second homes, pension pots to pay for the corona deficit. Unless Boris steps in, Sunak is turning into a Corbyn

*Hopefully this is not a u-turn on the Tory idea of low tax*

Click to expand...

Where have you been?  Of course there will be increase in taxes.How else will Covid get paid for?
If you have not been expecting this, or think it is a bad policy, I think you need to have a reality check.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Sounds like a good idea... won’t be such a good idea under Labour
		
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Ofc not. A fairer society that doesn't treat people like rubbish just doesn't work


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Ofc not. A fairer society that doesn't treat people like rubbish just doesn't work
		
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What, even if they're Jewish.


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Where have you been?  Of course there will be increase in taxes.How else will Covid get paid for?
If you have not been expecting this, or think it is a bad policy, I think you need to have a reality check.
		
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I did not expect any other way... however just pointing out that Corbyn’s ‘socialist’ policies that were rubbished by the Tories are suddenly a toast under Sunak


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I did not expect any other way... however just pointing out that Corbyn’s ‘socialist’ policies that were rubbished by the Tories are suddenly a toast under Sunak
		
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But Corbyn's policies ( which from what you say, I take as being similar, ) were not driven by Covid, i.e a National emergency.
The policies Sunak made would not have been made by any sane government in the status quo before Covid.
E.g Do you really think, that furloughing ,as happened, was a good policy in the absence of Covid?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2020)

Tory Party starts to eat itself again..........same old, same old.
This crew are so clueless that they are now stealing Labour policies in a desperate attempt to gain popularity.


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## drdel (Aug 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory Party starts to eat itself again..........same old, same old.
This crew are so clueless that they are now stealing Labour policies in a desperate attempt to gain popularity.
		
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While harmony in the SNP exists and is maintained only because they have squandered cash handouts over decades and still can't manage failing School etc. and not faced the reality.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What, even if they're Jewish.
		
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 Ah yes, the anti-Semitic Labour Party which is demonstrably not.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ah yes, the anti-Semitic Labour Party which is demonstrably not.
		
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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ah yes, the anti-Semitic Labour Party which is demonstrably not.
		
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At least, 'not since Corbyn is no longer Leader'! And the Labour Code of Conduct has subsequently included the IHRA Working Definition as its definition of antisemitism in its Code of Conduct.
There's actually a YouGov report that suggests that there's more anti-semitic attitudes among Conservative followers than amongst Labour ones! https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			At least, 'not since Corbyn is no longer Leader'! And the Labour Code of Conduct has subsequently included the IHRA Working Definition as its definition of antisemitism in its Code of Conduct.
There's actually a YouGov report that suggests that there's more anti-semitic attitudes among Conservative followers than amongst Labour ones! https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

Click to expand...

Of course there is - Tory supporters are right wing and exclusive so are clearly less likely to show any sort of compassion towards those who may be seen as different. But don’t let the truth stand in the way of the lies whipped up by the right wing to try and muddy the waters.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Of course there is - Tory supporters are right wing and exclusive so are clearly less likely to show any sort of compassion towards those who may be seen as different. But don’t let the truth stand in the way of the lies whipped up by the right wing to try and muddy the waters.
		
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That simply demonstrates your own irrational bigotry! There are still plenty of anti-semetic views in Labour supporters!


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 31, 2020)

Predictably totally split right down party lines

Ain’t politics grand 👍


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That simply demonstrates your own irrational bigotry! There are still plenty of anti-semetic views in Labour supporters!
		
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Definitely there will be. I didn’t say there isn’t. But we all know which of the two sets of supporters are generally less inclusive and are more likely to demonstrate extreme views like racism, sexism etc. I don’t think anyone would seriously claim otherwise.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Definitely there will be. I didn’t say there isn’t. *But we all know which of the two sets of supporters are generally less inclusive and are more likely to demonstrate extreme views like racism, sexism etc.* I don’t think anyone would seriously claim otherwise.
		
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I'm definitely unconvinced that that is the case, but you are welcome to your own opinion! The entire antisemitism argument (a specific case of racism after all) could likely easily have been turned around if (simply) that was the case!


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm definitely unconvinced that that is the case, but you are welcome to your own opinion! The entire antisemitism argument (a specific case of racism after all) could likely easily have been turned around if (simply) that was the case!
		
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You believe people who hold left wing views are more likely to be racist and sexist?


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You believe people who hold left wing views are more likely to be racist and sexist?
		
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You are, perhaps deliberately, misinterpreting my post!
Re-read it! Especially the emboldened bit of YOUR post!


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You believe people who hold left wing views are more likely to be racist and sexist?
		
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Like the BLM crowd?


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Like the BLM crowd?
		
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Here’s an apt quote I saw recently - why do the right wing want to hold protestors to the standard of the most violent of their numbers but don’t follow that logic for the police?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			While harmony in the SNP exists and is maintained only because they have squandered cash handouts over decades and still can't manage failing School etc. and not faced the reality.
		
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Out of touch as usual , there is not much harmony in the SNP at the moment.


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I did not expect any other way... however just pointing out that Corbyn’s ‘socialist’ policies that were rubbished by the Tories are suddenly a toast under Sunak
		
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They were also rubbished by the electorate otherwise we would have a labour government


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2020)

Who said that.......I only got 3 wrong 
https://www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/quiz-who-said-the-quote-david-brent-or-a-tory-mp-248154


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2020)

Spot on.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301141910027894790


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## Kellfire (Sep 8, 2020)

The Tories have voted down the implementation of the Grenfell inquiry phase one recommendations. Tories gonna Tory.


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

unfortuantely, this was reported by FT rather than BBC... does not give the opportunity to call it scaremongering by the left.. 

https://www.ft.com/content/6186bf1c-055b-4de6-a643-4eea763e1b94


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2020)

Closed as per Mike's post of 8/9/2020 banning political threads (see top of OOB)


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