# Match play rules.



## softhands (Aug 22, 2012)

During a singles match I had to play an extra hole. Because the game was tied on the 18th. 
The extra hole was the first where I received a shot, on the opponent, during the first time round. However, during the next time round it 
Was suggested that I should not receive the extra shot. Is this correct and if so why. Because if we squared the hole then we would have continued until someone wone. The stroke index will not have changed during the next time round.


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## Crow (Aug 22, 2012)

It isn't correct, the stroke should have been taken again on the second time round.

This is one of the reasons that stroke indexes on holes 1 and 18 are rarely lower than 8, so that in a match between two fairly close handicaps there won't be an advantage to one of the players on he first play-off hole.


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## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2012)

Yes. You should receive a shot.

Not a hugely desirable situation, which is why guidelines indicate 1, 10 (and 9 and 18) should b above 6 or so. But if it's a hard hole and you are quite a bit higher than your opponent, then you probably need one!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 22, 2012)

You get shots 'allowance' according to your handicap difference and the competition, the allowance is allocated according to the SI.  SI is a 'generally' a measure of difficulty of hole.  Getting 5 shots, say, means getting shots on holes with SI 1-5.  Play any of SI 1-5 twice then you get the shot(s) again - the hole hasn't got any easier or harder.


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## Hendo007 (Aug 22, 2012)

softhands said:



			During a singles match I had to play an extra hole. Because the game was tied on the 18th. 
The extra hole was the first where I received a shot, on the opponent, during the first time round. However, during the next time round it 
Was suggested that I should not receive the extra shot. Is this correct and if so why. Because if we squared the hole then we would have continued until someone wone. The stroke index will not have changed during the next time round.
		
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Did you get your shot or were you cheated out of it ?


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 22, 2012)

Hendo007 said:



			Did you get your shot or were you cheated out of it ?
		
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And did you win the match or would you of done courtesy of the shot?


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## softhands (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi everyone. 

Thanks for confiming the rule. 
I thought that was the case. Yep I won the match after claiming the shot. 
The funny thing was we both pared the hole. Hence the question.

There's nothing worse than thinking you have won dishonestly.
What makes it even beter, on the 16th I declared a shot on myself, 
following ball movement after I had addressed my ball. 
This allowed my opponent to go 2 up with two to play.


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 22, 2012)

Glad you won fair and square.

I had a phone call from my nephew with a similar query in a Volvo matchplay his match had finished all square he was at home and due a shot on hole 2, his oppo says as they walk off 18 when you available for our replay? 
Alarm bells ring he says no no we play sudden death which I confirmed for them. 
Amazing what tricks some people will pull!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 22, 2012)

As stated above, yes you get your shoy allowance again over the sudden death holes. I don't know why that is the case and it is something I strongly disagree with. In my mind, the match is over 18 holes and if you can't win it with your shots in that time then you've had your chance. Extra holes should be played off scratch, it's bad enough higher handicappers getting full allowance as it is.

...............lights blue touch paper and runs.....................


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## duncan mackie (Aug 22, 2012)

drive4show said:



			...............lights blue touch paper and runs.....................
		
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we will catch you eventually!


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## beggsy (Aug 22, 2012)

Seems like sour grapes by someone who has been done at the extra first hole a few time


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 22, 2012)

beggsy said:



			Seems like sour grapes by someone who has been done at the extra first hole a few time
		
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No...it's worked both for and against me a pretty equal number of times......but I still think it's wrong.


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 23, 2012)

There is a case for the extra shots and also against. Pretty much the same argument as full difference and 3/4 difference.
I got beat by on extra hole because of shot in Volvo not happy but it's the rules so accept and sadly move on.


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## Smiffy (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			.but I still think it's wrong.
		
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I don't


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## rosecott (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			As stated above, yes you get your shoy allowance again over the sudden death holes. I don't know why that is the case and it is something I strongly disagree with. In my mind, the match is over 18 holes and if you can't win it with your shots in that time then you've had your chance. Extra holes should be played off scratch, it's bad enough higher handicappers getting full allowance as it is.

...............lights blue touch paper and runs.....................
		
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Surely the objective of the golf handicap system is to create as level a playing field as possible, to then allow a competitor to strive to achieve beyond his current level and reduce his handicap. If, in so doing, he happens to do well in a competition or beat a lower handicapped player in matchplay, that is all part of the process of improvement. To turn round after 18 holes of matchplay with honours even and then throw that concept out of the window seems to be saying that the higher handicap player should not have had the difference in handicaps taken into account in the first place.

If you accept that there is a need for handicaps in golf and that there is a definable difference between two players that requires an adjustment to make a fair contest, it would seem inconsistent to say to the higher handicapper after 18 holes â€œIâ€™m now pulling the rug from under your feetâ€.

Perhaps, as a 5 handicap, you should stick to scratch competitions and scratch knockouts and your problem would solve itself.


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## dufferman (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			it's bad enough higher handicappers getting full allowance as it is.
		
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If they didn't, surely the whole handicap system would be for nothing...?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

If a player works hard on his game to improve and get his handicap down, why should he give that all away to someone who isn't prepared to work as hard on their game? 

I don't have an issue with people of all abilities being able to compete against each other but it's only fair that the advantage should lie with those that put more effort into their games.


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## NWJocko (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If a player works hard on his game to improve and get his handicap down, why should he give that all away to someone who isn't prepared to work as hard on their game? 

I don't have an issue with people of all abilities being able to compete against each other but it's only fair that the advantage should lie with those that put more effort into their games.
		
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There's an assumption there that low handicap = someone who practices....

I have a low handicap and never, ever, practice.  Many of my friends at the club are high teens/20's handicaps and do work hard.

What happens there?


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If a player works hard on his game to improve and get his handicap down, why should he give that all away to someone who isn't prepared to work as hard on their game?
		
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Many golfers dont have the time to work on their games (work, family etc). Does that mean they should be precluded from a cmatchplay comp because they are off a certain handicap and havent dedicated hours on the range


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 23, 2012)

Surely this all depends on why we play the game.  Most of us is for nothing more than light entertainment and enjoyment,  for us the handicap system works well and we have no problem with players of all abilities receiving their full allowance.  For others though its more about the winning and fame/fortune,  if that is you then you should try your hand and the professional game and leave the amateur game to the rest of us.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

doublebogey7 said:



			Surely this all depends on why we play the game.  Most of us is for nothing more than light entertainment and enjoyment,  for us the handicap system works well and we have no problem with players of all abilities receiving their full allowance.  For others though its more about the winning and fame/fortune,  if that is you then you should try your hand and the professional game and leave the amateur game to the rest of us.
		
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Your argument is fine for social golf but as soon as you enter a matchplay knockout competition it changes from being social golf to competitive golf.


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## rosecott (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If a player works hard on his game to improve and get his handicap down, why should he give that all away to someone who isn't prepared to work as hard on their game? 

I don't have an issue with people of all abilities being able to compete against each other but it's only fair that the advantage should lie with those that put more effort into their games.
		
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So you shouldn't get shots in a matchplay knockout against a 2 handicap as he has possibly worked harder on his game?


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## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Your argument is fine for social golf but as soon as you enter a matchplay knockout competition it changes from being social golf to competitive golf.
		
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Even more reason why you should restrict yourself to Scratch competitions.

Handicap competitions allow players of different abilities, fir whatever reason, to compete, though the result does not mean the winner is the 'better' player, nor played better, just 'relatively better on the day'. 

And check out the link in my sig!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

rosecott said:



			So you shouldn't get shots in a matchplay knockout against a 2 handicap as he has possibly worked harder on his game?
		
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That isn't what I said.

What I did say is..... 3/4 difference is ample and if a match is all square after 18 then the sudden death holes should be played off scratch.


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 23, 2012)

It would definately favour the lower h/cap player if there is no shots on extra holes much the same as 3/4 difference does.
The differiantial in handicap is still the same on hole 19/20 as it is on holes 1 and 2.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

pbrown7582 said:



			It would definately favour the lower h/cap player if there is no shots on extra holes much the same as 3/4 difference does.
The differiantial in handicap is still the same on hole 19/20 as it is on holes 1 and 2.
		
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True. But the higher handicap player has already had full allowance as it is and if he/she can't take advantage of that over 18 holes then they have had their chance in my opinion. If they do go on to win over extra holes without getting additional shots then fair play to them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Even more reason why you should restrict yourself to Scratch competitions.

Handicap competitions allow players of different abilities, fir whatever reason, to compete, though the result does not mean the winner is the 'better' player, nor played better, just 'relatively better on the day'. 

And check out the link in my sig!
		
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Why should I restrict myself to scratch competitions?

And I've read the article you refer to and I don't agree with it.


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## rosecott (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			True. But the higher handicap player has already had full allowance as it is and if he/she can't take advantage of that over 18 holes then they have had their chance in my opinion.
		
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So what you are saying is that, if the knockout competition rules say that, in the event of all square after 18 holes. you must replay over 18 holes, you then play off the stick?


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## NWJocko (Aug 23, 2012)

Are you conveniently ignoring my question because it doesn't fit your argument?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

rosecott said:



			So what you are saying is that, if the knockout competition rules say that, in the event of all square after 18 holes. you must replay over 18 holes, you then play off the stick?
		
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No. I've never seen or played in a competition that has those rules, all that I have played in are sudden death. And the handicap allowance is over 18 holes, what happens if you are receiving 1 shot and SI 1 happens to be on the first or second hole? (as it is at one of my former clubs)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			There's an assumption there that low handicap = someone who practices....

I have a low handicap and never, ever, practice.  Many of my friends at the club are high teens/20's handicaps and do work hard.

What happens there?
		
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Are you saying that you have NEVER practiced to achieve your low handicap or that you don't practice now?


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## 1GG_Grumps (Aug 23, 2012)

Then your friends have to face the reality that you're one of those annoying gits that has great natural ability.  They also have to accept that, despite their supposed hard work, they're just not suited to golf and so really should take up tennis or badminton instead.


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## rosecott (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			No. I've never seen or played in a competition that has those rules, all that I have played in are sudden death. And the handicap allowance is over 18 holes, what happens if you are receiving 1 shot and SI 1 happens to be on the first or second hole? (as it is at one of my former clubs)
		
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That is why CONGU SI recommendations were framed - SI1 should be holes 4,5 or 6.

Drive4show

I donâ€™t know you and you may well be someone I would be very happy to have a round of golf with, but you are coming over as someone whose thinking is:

1. Iâ€™m happy to play you in matchplay and reluctantly concede however many strokes the system allows you.
2. If, however, we are all square after 18 holes, I have proved I am a better player than you because the handicap system is faulty and you should never have had those strokes in the first place.
3. Despite the fact that I am a better player than you, I will insist that the handicap system should no longer apply after 18 holes and that any â€œadvantageâ€ originally provided by the handicapping  system (which you should never have had in the first place) should no longer apply, therefore I am bound to win.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

rosecott said:



			That is why CONGU SI recommendations were framed - SI1 should be holes 4,5 or 6.

Drive4show

I donâ€™t know you and you may well be someone I would be very happy to have a round of golf with, but you are coming over as someone whose thinking is:

1. Iâ€™m happy to play you in matchplay and reluctantly concede however many strokes the system allows you.
2. If, however, we are all square after 18 holes, I have proved I am a better player than you because the handicap system is faulty and you should never have had those strokes in the first place.
3. Despite the fact that I am a better player than you, I will insist that the handicap system should no longer apply after 18 holes and that any â€œadvantageâ€ originally provided by the handicapping  system (which you should never have had in the first place) should no longer apply, therefore I am bound to win.

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That is all very well and good but you haven't even considered the other side of the argument where I may be the higher handicapper who is receiving the shots. If you care to read back to one of my first posts on this thread, I stated quite clearly that the current system has worked both for and against me in the past. But my stance is still the same, the advantage should lie with the lower handicap player because golf is a sport and I believe the advantage should lie with the one who puts the most work into their game. 

(And before anyone says 'I'm a low handicapper and I never work on my game' well you are very fortunate and also the exception to the rule)


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Your argument is fine for social golf but as soon as you enter a matchplay knockout competition it changes from being social golf to competitive golf.
		
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Sorry but I and I believe most other golfers play both competitive golf and social golf for enjoyment and light entertainment.  Please can you explain how this differs from your main reason for playing competitive golf.


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## Imurg (Aug 23, 2012)

See why I hate Matchplay.......?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

doublebogey7 said:



			Sorry but I and I believe most other golfers play both competitive golf and social golf for enjoyment and light entertainment.  Please can you explain how this differs from your main reason for playing competitive golf.
		
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If you enter a competition, you go in with the mindset of doing as well as you possibly can ie. trying to win the competition. If you are playing social golf then you are probably not playing for anything more than the cost of a drink or bragging rights over your mates. To me, competitive golf is about winning (within the rules and spirit of the game) and social golf is about having a laugh with my mates.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			But my stance is still the same, the advantage should lie with the lower handicap player because golf is a sport and I believe the advantage should lie with the one who puts the most work into their game. (
		
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There are plenty of opportunities fro the best players to pitch themselves on an equal footing against similar standard players,  there called scratch competitions,  perhaps you should devote yourself to those.  For the the majority of us who are less competent the handicap system serves its purpose in allowing all of us to enjoy some competitive sport on an equal footing.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

doublebogey7 said:



			There are plenty of opportunities fro the best players to pitch themselves on an equal footing against similar standard players,  there called scratch competitions,  perhaps you should devote yourself to those.  For the the majority of us who are less competent the handicap system serves its purpose in allowing all of us to enjoy some competitive sport on an equal footing.
		
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I've played in 12 competitions this year, 9 scratch and 3 handicap. In scratch competitions, I'm usually towards the top end of the handicap range but I enjoy playing against the best players to see how well I can do against them.

Unfortunately, I don't do as well as I would like..................  :-(


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If you enter a competition, you go in with the mindset of doing as well as you possibly can ie. trying to win the competition. If you are playing social golf then you are probably not playing for anything more than the cost of a drink or bragging rights over your mates. To me, competitive golf is about winning (within the rules and spirit of the game) and social golf is about having a laugh with my mates.
		
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I am as competitive as the next man and winning is a joy,  i.e a means to an end.  I still don't understand how this can be different for others unless they are seeking fame and fortune.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

Practice? I don't practice as in going to a range or down the practice ground and really never have.  I have tried a bit going with mates - but it's always a bit of a disaster - so I just avoid it.  I have never had a lesson and so don't know what to practice ... but I somehow got down to 6.

I was fortunate that I could play a lot - and so my practice was on the course.

hmmm...but I'd add - that having had 10 yrs off until about 4 years ago - it's been one hell of a struggle to get back playing half decent again - without lessons or practice.  But hey - I knocked it round in 6 over a few weeks ago so I'm a happy bunny - and back to 11.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			But my stance is still the same, the advantage should lie with the lower handicap player because golf is a sport and I believe the advantage should lie with the one who puts the most work into their game. 

(And before anyone says 'I'm a low handicapper and I never work on my game' well you are very fortunate and also the exception to the rule)
		
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Bunkum. So what happens if are off 16 and so an average joe and playing a guy off 28 and the first hole is SI10. He gets a shot and neither of you have the time or inclination to work on your game (which may explain the handicap but its also a balance between playing and family/work). Is it still wrong to not give a shot. Where does the line get drawn


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bunkum. So what happens if are off 16 and so an average joe and playing a guy off 28 and the first hole is SI10. He gets a shot and neither of you have the time or inclination to work on your game (which may explain the handicap but its also a balance between playing and family/work). Is it still wrong to not give a shot. Where does the line get drawn
		
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The line gets drawn after 18 holes, I thought I'd made that clear?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			...the advantage should lie with the lower handicap player
		
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Nope - sorry - IMO you are quite wrong in that thought...

You said it - it's a handicap game - so at the basics of the game as most of us play it there should be no advantage through being a lower or higher handicap player.  He or she who succeeds is the player who plays better to their handicap on the day.  Golf as it has developed is an egalitarian game - that is it's unusual beauty.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2012)

Sorry but you are deluded. Check out the rule book. Until make a change deal with it


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Nope - sorry - IMO you are quite wrong in that thought...*

You said it - it's a handicap game - so at the basics of the game as most of us play it there should be no advantage through being a lower or higher handicap player.  He or she who succeeds is the player who plays better to their handicap on the day.  Golf as it has developed is an egalitarian game - that is it's unusual beauty.
		
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Golf is a competitive sport, the advantage should lie with the higher skilled player.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			The line gets drawn after 18 holes, I thought I'd made that clear?
		
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Why?? I'm sorry - but you are failing completely to understand handicap golf.  After 18 holes you start again.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry but you are deluded. Check out the rule book. Until make a change deal with it
		
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I'm not deluded and I'm fully aware of the rule book. I just don't agree with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Golf is a competitive sport, the advantage should lie with the higher skilled player.
		
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OK - play scratch golf...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why?? I'm sorry - but you are failing completely to understand handicap golf.  After 18 holes you start again.
		
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I fully understand the concept of handicap golf thank you very much. A match is played over 18 holes, the higher handicap player receives his shots and if after 18 holes he hasn't used that to his advantage then that is up to him.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - play scratch golf...
		
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I do


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

I know a whole bunch of low handicap golfers that have stopped playing in their club's handicap knockout competitions since the rule was changed to full allowance. All that has done is devalue the competitions as the better players no longer participate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			No. I've never seen or played in a competition that has those rules, all that I have played in are sudden death. And the handicap allowance is over 18 holes, what happens if you are receiving 1 shot and SI 1 happens to be on the first or second hole? (as it is at one of my former clubs)
		
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How many courses have their first as SI 1 - even when it is the hardest on the course. Why are the first or second rarely designed to be the hardest pars on the course?  Quite.  Our 2nd is SI 2 - but even low low singles find it very hard to par so that is OK (474 yrs - first 320 yds uphill then dogleg right - so for everyone a blind second shot).  SI and course design take into account extra holes in KO h/cap comps.  If your track doesn't then...

Jeez mate - you are off 5 - you must understand this stuff.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			I know a whole bunch of low handicap golfers that have stopped playing in their club's handicap knockout competitions since the rule was changed to full allowance. All that has done is devalue the competitions as the better players no longer participate.
		
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Now this is a different argument - and in fact one that I am in agreement with you on.

And in the same vein you could add allowing juniors to play in front line (or however you refer to them) club comps.  Lots of unhappiness abounds around that.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How many courses have their first as SI 1 - even when it is the hardest on the course. Why are the first or second rarely designed to be the hardest pars on the course?  Quite.  Our 2nd is SI 2 - but even low low singles find it very hard to par so that is OK (474 yrs - first 320 yds uphill then dogleg right - so for everyone a blind second shot).  SI and course design take into account extra holes in KO h/cap comps.  If your track doesn't then...

Jeez mate - you are off 5 - you must understand this stuff.
		
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I used to play at Southampton, SI1 is the 2nd hole. Hardly conducive to matchplay golf but it is the hardest hole on the course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2012)

drive4show said:



			I used to play at Southampton, SI1 is the 2nd hole. Hardly conducive to matchplay golf but it is the hardest hole on the course.
		
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Exactly - if it is actually a really hard hole then the low handicapper should be able to get a 4 many more times than the higher.  I bet the higher handicap screws up hugely a lot of time - you will get a 5 most of time and 4 a lot.  The fact it is a difficult SI 1 will work to your advantage if you play your opponent rather than the hole.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 23, 2012)

But we digress from the original argument.

In my mind, an 18 hole match is played over 18 holes and the handicap difference applies over 18 holes, not over however many holes it takes to settle the match.

If other people see it differently then fine, that is up to them but whatever arguments they put forward, it won't change my point of view. That is my final word on the subject.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2012)

drive4show said:



			But we digress from the original argument.

In my mind, an 18 hole match is played over 18 holes and the handicap difference applies over 18 holes, not over however many holes it takes to settle the match.

If other people see it differently then fine, that is up to them but whatever arguments they put forward, it won't change my point of view. That is my final word on the subject.
		
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Oh well - you are quite right about 18 hole matches/comps being played over 18 holes - you only have to find such matches - and there are plenty I'll grant you.

However in general - I think that you'll find that there is no stipulation on the number of holes other than (usually) they should be over 18, plus however many are accommodated by the rules of that competition - and I think that again you will find that there is no upper limit to the number of holes that can be played to decide the outcome of a match.

And that would seem to make a nonsense of handicap stroke allowance only applying to 18 holes if we could play on until the cows came home.


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## Imurg (Aug 24, 2012)

If a match is played over 18 holes and after 18 you're level then it should be declared a draw or the tie decided by the toss of a coin....

It isn't because the tie should be decided by Golf.

Therefore you continue down the 19th etc etc until somone wins.
So a Match isn't over 18 holes - it is over a minimum of 18 holes.
And if you have to go round again - all 18 if necessary - then handicaps have to be taken into account.

You say that if the high handicapper can't take advantage and win with all the shots he has, why can't a 5 handicapper take advantage and win playing better golf over 18 holes...?

If it's a HANDICAP competition then handicaps have to be taken into account.

If it's a scratch comp then fill yer boots...

I'm afraid you're wrong on this one.....


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## Twire (Aug 24, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If a player works hard on his game to improve and get his handicap down, why should he give that all away to someone who isn't prepared to work as hard on their game? 

I don't have an issue with people of all abilities being able to compete against each other but it's only fair that the advantage should lie with those that put more effort into their games.
		
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drive4show said:



			That is all very well and good but you haven't even considered the other side of the argument where I may be the higher handicapper who is receiving the shots. If you care to read back to one of my first posts on this thread, I stated quite clearly that the current system has worked both for and against me in the past. But my stance is still the same, the advantage should lie with the lower handicap player because golf is a sport and I believe the advantage should lie with the one who puts the most work into their game. 

(And before anyone says 'I'm a low handicapper and I never work on my game' well you are very fortunate and also the exception to the rule)
		
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Your assuming that the high handicapper doesn't put in as much practice as the low person and I find that insulting. I work hard on my game, and have regular lessons. Unfortunately, I'm still 9 shots off your handicap, but it's nothing to do with lack of practice and hard work.


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## sweatysock41 (Aug 24, 2012)

To my way of thinking if a handicap match ends up tied after 18 then the handicaps to even the chances for both players have been proved to be correct. In a perfect world if we all played to our handicap the nett scores at the end of a round would all be the same after all.   If the competition states that extra holes should decide the outcome then the same handicaps should be applied.  

To say this shouldn't happen is to reject handicap calculations for individuals completely irrespective of them being high or low.


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## jammydodger (Aug 24, 2012)

A couple of years ago I won our clubs h/c matchplay off 4. Our first hole was SI 6 but it was only about 330 yards and wasnt particularly difficult if you got a half decent tee shot away. Each round that year I had to give a shot away on that first hole and most times I lost it even with par. I used to dread the match going to extra holes for the obvious reason , however thankfully it never transpired that I needed extra time. It never occured to me though to think that I shouldnt have had to give shots on extra holes. Why wouldnt you if its a h/c comp ? You know the rules when signing in and paying your entry fee so get on with it or dont enter. As has been said plenty of low h/c players dont enter the h/c knockouts and thats fine. 

You make a pretty lame case and make yourself look a little mean spirited with your argument. The comp is what it is and you cant manufacturer it to suit your ego about losing to a player with a higher h/c than yourself.


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## splashtryagain (Aug 24, 2012)

This is just daft.
Do you enter these comps? I would suggest you stop. I try and enter all the comps I can and just get on with it, you know what you are getting into! Incidentely I don't practice either!
Have you ever voiced this belief of no more shots in an extended match? Personally you would annoy the hell out of me for holding this belief (only holding the belief, not you personally), as it is what appears to be wrong with most eliteist we are better than you/only play with each other cat 1s. 
The practice = quality player argument is not totally correct (nor incorrect I should add). I know plenty of peeps who practice like a beast and get no where and those who can just 'do' sport and without one iota of practice get to cat 1! But this is nature / nurture and not for here.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 24, 2012)

drive4show said:



			But we digress from the original argument.

In my mind, an 18 hole match is played over 18 holes and the handicap difference applies over 18 holes, not over however many holes it takes to settle the match.

If other people see it differently then fine, that is up to them but whatever arguments they put forward, it won't change my point of view. That is my final word on the subject.
		
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There seems little point to me in expressing your views if you won't at least listen to others.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 24, 2012)

I have listened to other views, I just dont happen to agree with them. Just like other people dont agree with my views.


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## rosecott (Aug 24, 2012)

drive4show said:



			But we digress from the original argument.

In my mind, an 18 hole match is played over 18 holes and the handicap difference applies over 18 holes, not over however many holes it takes to settle the match.

If other people see it differently then fine, that is up to them but whatever arguments they put forward, it won't change my point of view. *That is my final word on the subject*.
		
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drive4show said:



			I have listened to other views, I just dont happen to agree with them. Just like other people dont agree with my views.
		
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Are you sure you have nothing else to add? I think we all know your opinion.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 24, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Are you sure you have nothing else to add? I think we all know your opinion.
		
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OK, just for you rosecott I'll add one last comment.

Hypothetical match between a scratch player and an 18 handicapper in an 18 hole knockout match.........

Matches are now played over full allowance so the 18 hcp gets a shot a hole. At the end of the match it is all square so they carry on to extra holes. The 18 hcp wins the match on the 2nd extra hole. The 18hcp has received 20 shots.

If you think that is fair then that is fine, it just so happens that I don't.

That is the last thing I have to say on this thread.


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## Imurg (Aug 24, 2012)

drive4show said:



			OK, just for you rosecott I'll add one last comment.

Hypothetical match between a scratch player and an 18 handicapper in an 18 hole knockout match.........

Matches are now played over full allowance so the 18 hcp gets a shot a hole. At the end of the match it is all square so they carry on to extra holes. The 18 hcp wins the match on the 2nd extra hole. *The 18hcp has received 20 shots.*

If you think that is fair then that is fine, it just so happens that I don't.
		
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Over 20 holes....

A Match lasts as many holes as it takes someone to win.
If the Scratch player had won 5&4 then the 18'er hasn't received all their shots - is that fair?

Who said Golf was supposed to be fair?
I disagree with CSS - that ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Nor is this rule.

Time to get over it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 24, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Over 20 holes....

A Match lasts as many holes as it takes someone to win.
If the Scratch player had won 5&4 then the 18'er hasn't received all their shots - is that fair?

Who said Golf was supposed to be fair?
		
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Spot on


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## Parless State (Aug 25, 2012)

drive4show said:



			OK, just for you rosecott I'll add one last comment.

Hypothetical match between a scratch player and an 18 handicapper in an 18 hole knockout match.........

Matches are now played over full allowance so the 18 hcp gets a shot a hole. At the end of the match it is all square so they carry on to extra holes. The 18 hcp wins the match on the 2nd extra hole. The 18hcp has received 20 shots.

If you think that is fair then that is fine, it just so happens that I don't.

That is the last thing I have to say on this thread.
		
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This is nearly a good argument for your case, it's just a bad example.

A better example is when a scratch player is against a 4-handicapper. The 4 hcp receives shots on roughly 22% of holes over the full round. At the second play-off hole he receives a shot. He has now received a shot on 5 out of 20 holes, or 25%. If he wins this hole, the scratch player has no comeback, unlike over the initial full round. So the 4 hcp has effectively received more shots in total than his handicap warranted (almost 5 shots per 18 holes).

This effect is greater or lesser depending on the handicaps involved and the SI layout of the course.

Congu would no doubt say that the lower handicap has a slight advantage over the initial 18 holes anyway, so the higher handicapper has in effect earned this advantage in the play-off.

Personally I think I agree with you. In most sports, if you're not good enough then you don't get to play, let alone win, and nobody think that's unfair... 

Obviously it's a good thing that the handicapping system exists to allow large numbers of people to play golf semi-seriously, but seeing the worse player winning, in matchplay in particular, never really sits that easily with me, so I'd rather the advantage was skewed a little further towards the better player. (And yes, that's whether it happens to benefit me on the day or not).


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## Parless State (Aug 25, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Over 20 holes....

A Match lasts as many holes as it takes someone to win.
If the Scratch player had won 5&4 then the 18'er hasn't received all their shots - is that fair?
		
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Of course they have - they've received one shot per hole, which is what they're supposed to get.


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## Imurg (Aug 25, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Over 20 holes....

A Match lasts as many holes as it takes someone to win.

If the Scratch player had won 5&4 then the 18'er hasn't received all their shots - is that fair?

.
		
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Parless State said:



			Of course they have - they've received one shot per hole, which is what they're supposed to get.
		
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No they haven't....
They haven't played 18 holes.

The OP complains about a high handicapper getting extra shots on extra holes.
In a 5&4 loss the bigh handicapper has only received 14 shots.....

Same principle.....


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## pbrown7582 (Aug 25, 2012)

I think tha ratioed example s a better argument if you are for the OP stance the shot a hole example is ideal for the argument against whether you play 14, 18 or 20 hes the 18 h.cap against act each had received the correct number of shots.
This is obviously something congu tr to ease when recommended SI be in position around the course at certain points and nt on the level of difficulty of the hole as we mostly think.


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## Foxholer (Aug 25, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Hypothetical match between a scratch player and an 18 handicapper in an 18 hole knockout match.........

Matches are now played over full allowance so the 18 hcp gets a shot a hole. At the end of the match it is all square so they carry on to extra holes. The 18 hcp wins the match on the 2nd extra hole. The 18hcp has received 20 shots.

If you think that is fair then that is fine, it just so happens that I don't.

That is the last thing I have to say on this thread.
		
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Matches are played 'Hole by hole' - in fact, I believe a Scottish term for Matchplay is 'hole-on-hole' - so the allocation of shots against holes is entirely appropriate. And it doesn't matter whether a hole is won by a single shot or loads either. Anything else is hybridising Stroke-play into the match - though that's just about how handicaps work. The method of allocating the strokes can be a bit iffy, though so would any other. As the lower handicap player has a statistically greater likelihood of winning anyway, they should do it in 18 holes and avoid the risk associated with sudden death holes!

So in D4S's example of 1 shot per hole, it is absolutely fair that the 18-diff guy continues to get a shot per hole!


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## Snelly (Aug 25, 2012)

Imurg said:



			If a match is played over 18 holes and after 18 you're level then it should be declared a draw or the tie decided by the toss of a coin....

It isn't because the tie should be decided by Golf.

Therefore you continue down the 19th etc etc until somone wins.
So a Match isn't over 18 holes - it is over a minimum of 18 holes.
And if you have to go round again - all 18 if necessary - then handicaps have to be taken into account.

You say that if the high handicapper can't take advantage and win with all the shots he has, why can't a 5 handicapper take advantage and win playing better golf over 18 holes...?

If it's a HANDICAP competition then handicaps have to be taken into account.

If it's a scratch comp then fill yer boots...

I'm afraid you're wrong on this one.....
		
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Totally agree. Well said.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2012)

Seems simply to me that handicap is a measure of ability and the fairest way *for the lower handicapper* is for the shots to be given on prescribed holes rather than as and when the high handicapper chooses to take them - and so we have SI.  As a result (assuming handicaps are correct) the playing advantage is always going to be with the lower handicap player (as match can finish without some shots having been taken).  I'm guessing the change to full handicap difference was to redress this advantage in some way. 

So when we go to extra holes in a handicap competition the match has to continue under the same conditions where ability is balanced by handicap - and so shots are given at holes as prescribed by SI.  And if the first hole the lower handicapper gives a shot is say the 4th - then for three holes the lower handicapper has the advantage through ability.

So completely agree with Imurg (as I just repeated his argument - d'oh)


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## Tignanello97 (Aug 25, 2012)

What a load of codswallop!!rules are rules & golf is all about following it's strict etiquette. This is what helps make it the sport that it is. Those not in favour should maybe take up bridge and moan about the demise of "their" game in the clubhouse. 
Another theory would be that if the lower handicap golfer " who has so obviously put more time in to his game "( smells of a stampede) can't beat the higher handicapper after 18 holes then the higher player should get double his allowance!! Either that or the lower player blackballed for bringing shame down on all those who practice hard.


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## Fader (Aug 25, 2012)

I look at this in simplistic terms.

18 handicapper has those shots because he needs them. Scratch player has none because he has damn good ability. Therefore in the course of 18 holes the higher handicapper is likely to throw more shots away than the scratch player, thus meaning the scratch player should be good enough to win over the course of 18 holes.

To say shots shouldn't be given in the playoff holes doesn't add up to me, as the match takes as long as it takes. Plus the holes they are playing after 18, havent changed or got any easier so the shots should stand. The 18 handicappers ability to a par a shot hole hasn't changed nor has the SI. Handicaps are there to make it a level playing field and a scratch player should always beat and 18 anyway, by pure level of ability.

The rules are there for all and if it's not liked then don't play.


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## Crow (Aug 25, 2012)

I've never been able to see the argument made by lower handicappers that they should get an advantage in handicap competitions.

The whole idea of the handicap system is to allow players of different abilities to have a good match and to have to play to the best of their ability in order to win, *and for each to have a fair chance of winning.
*
Withlout the handicap system there would be a small number of players of similar handicap to your own who you could play a close and enjoyable match with.

If all you really want is for the best player to win then why not just put everybody in order of their exact handicap and award places, first to lowest and last to highest, without having to have the dreadful possibility of a player of lesser ability beating a "superior" player.

As has already been said many times, it's a handicap competition and that makes it a competition that will give most people who enter a chnace of winning.


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## richart (Aug 25, 2012)

I actually like the idea that you should get handicap difference only over 18 holes. If you are getting 18 shots, and the match goes down the 19th, no shot given as you have already had your allowance. A scratch golfer could end up giving 27 shots to an 18 handicapper if the match finished on the 9th extra hole.

Despite this I still think D4S is a very bad man, and should be avoided at all costs for having his own opinion.(whistle )


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2012)

drive4show said:



			As stated above, yes you get your shoy allowance again over the sudden death holes. I don't know why that is the case and it is something I strongly disagree with. In my mind, the match is over 18 holes and if you can't win it with your shots in that time then you've had your chance. Extra holes should be played off scratch, it's bad enough higher handicappers getting full allowance as it is.

...............lights blue touch paper and runs.....................
		
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Hi DFS
Re shots on extra holes
You could argue that if the low handicap player is not skilled enough to beat a higher handicap player over 18 holes.......

A few of years ago I played a semi giving loads of shots.
Four up with four to play my opponent relaxed [as mentally he had lost the game] and won the last four holes.
He had a shot on the 1st, but as he could now see himself winning he went all to pieces.


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## Smiffy (Aug 26, 2012)

drive4show said:



			If other people see it differently then fine, that is up to them but whatever arguments they put forward, it won't change my point of view. *That is my final word on the subject.*

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Oh ok.



drive4show said:



			I have listened to other views, I just dont happen to agree with them. Just like other people dont agree with my views.
		
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Ooops!



drive4show said:



			OK, just for you rosecott I'll add one last comment.

Hypothetical match between a scratch player and an 18 handicapper in an 18 hole knockout match.........

Matches are now played over full allowance so the 18 hcp gets a shot a hole. At the end of the match it is all square so they carry on to extra holes. The 18 hcp wins the match on the 2nd extra hole. The 18hcp has received 20 shots.

If you think that is fair then that is fine, it just so happens that I don't.

*That is the last thing I have to say on this thread.*

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Again????


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 26, 2012)

That added a lot to the discussion Smiffy


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2012)

drive4show said:



			That added a lot to the discussion Smiffy
		
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As did that! And this! <smile smiley>

Still, I haven't said I wouldn't post any more in the thread!


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## Smiffy (Aug 26, 2012)

drive4show said:



			That added a lot to the discussion Smiffy
		
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I am a man of very few words.


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## RGDave (Aug 26, 2012)

This does ask a few questions doesn't it. The 1st (first play-off hole) is a par 3 tiddler. Thankfully, nobody would ever get a shot there. However, that would favour the low h'cap player quite a bit. The next (second play-off hole) often gives a stroke to the higher player and it never ceases to amaze me that many a match ends here with a par nett birdie. It's an easy par, but terribly difficult hole to birdie with the sloping green. I guess these things balance themselves out.

Would it be within the boundaries for a committee to designate a (different) starting hole for extra holes in matchplay?


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## RGDave (Aug 26, 2012)

A few of years ago I played a semi giving loads of shots.
Four up with four to play my opponent relaxed [as mentally he had lost the game] and won the last four holes.
He had a shot on the 1st, but as he could now see himself winning he went all to pieces.
		
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Good story. SO true.

I lost a game in similar circumstances. 3 or 4 up with 3 or 4 to go, lost the lot. Got on the 1st, lost to a par nett birdie. It was a good game, I just played too safe. 

Note to self; don't play safe with 4 to go.


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2012)

RGDave said:



			Would it be within the boundaries for a committee to designate a (different) starting hole for extra holes in matchplay?
		
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Committees can do quite a bit (though they occasionally exceed their authority!). This seems a reasonable condition. I've seen a club comp that requires a 4 hole play-off, with a mix of SIs, rather than sudden-death.



RGDave said:



			Good story. SO true.

I lost a game in similar circumstances. 3 or 4 up with 3 or 4 to go, lost the lot. Got on the 1st, lost to a par nett birdie. It was a good game, I just played too safe. 

Note to self; don't play safe with 4 to go.
		
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I'd amend that to say 'Don't change the way I'm playing'. As an 'aggressive conservative' player, I'm neither going to take risks, nor play overly safe - just play to score as few shots on each hole as possible and commit to every swing!


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