# Cook and Trott Out



## HomerJSimpson (Apr 13, 2015)

Cook fails again against a mediocre West Indies side (certainly compared to the Aussie or SA attack). Trott's return lasted three balls. I think Cook has reached the end of the road. He's not in form, lacks confidence and needs to go back to the county game and find some form. Not sure Trott should have come back. After leaving the last tour because of "stress" he's back away from home again and didn't make a contribution.

I'd like to see England begin to build and blood the youngsters on this tour ahead of the arrival of New Zealand and then the Aussies. If Cook makes runs at county level, then bring him back into the fold but I think Trott is finished at this level. Find an opening pair that can survive the opening barrage and then attack like the better test playing sides seem to do regularly


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## LUFC 1972 (Apr 13, 2015)

Not sure why Trott comes in ahead of Adam Lyth, Cook has to stay in unless they bite the bullet and make Joe Root Captain and bring Moeen in to open (think he will replace Ballance. Would also have picked Rashid as spinner but shows we dont have faith in our seamers as Treadwell will hold an end up but not going to bowl a team out. It is proved in all forms of cricket a leg spinner will get wickets, especially as will be bowling last. Broad has had his day.. Personally I would have prefer Plunkett playing.... bet you cant guess which county I support !


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## fundy (Apr 13, 2015)

Only this England side could send in a nightwatchman to not face a ball!!!! Just sums up the (mis)management


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 13, 2015)

LUFC 1972 said:



			Not sure why Trott comes in ahead of Adam Lyth, Cook has to stay in unless they bite the bullet and make Joe Root Captain and bring Moeen in to open (think he will replace Ballance. Would also have picked Rashid as spinner but shows we dont have faith in our seamers as Treadwell will hold an end up but not going to bowl a team out. It is proved in all forms of cricket a leg spinner will get wickets, especially as will be bowling last. Broad has had his day.. Personally I would have prefer Plunkett playing.... bet you cant guess which county I support !
		
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You were doing so well until you suggested Rashid and Plunkett!

Agree about the effectiveness of leggies but they still have to be good leggies and Moeen as an opener. Really!? Against the Aussies in Test cricket. I don't think so.


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## TigerIsAmazing (Apr 13, 2015)

I thought this was about preparing a quick meal before going out for the night!



I have no idea about cricket!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 13, 2015)

First test - first innings and let's get rid of two already. Both the openers are two of the most talent batsmen we have - would rather wait and see how they do throughout the whole series before throwing them out.


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## Tongo (Apr 14, 2015)

LUFC 1972 said:



*Not sure why Trott comes in ahead of Adam Lyth*, Cook has to stay in unless they bite the bullet and make Joe Root Captain and bring Moeen in to open (think he will replace Ballance. Would also have picked Rashid as spinner but shows we dont have faith in our seamers as Treadwell will hold an end up but not going to bowl a team out. It is proved in all forms of cricket a leg spinner will get wickets, especially as will be bowling last. Broad has had his day.. Personally I would have prefer Plunkett playing.... bet you cant guess which county I support !
		
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No I don't understand that either. I'd be pretty miffed if I was Adam Lyth.


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## Tongo (Apr 14, 2015)

fundy said:



			Only this England side could send in a nightwatchman to not face a ball!!!! Just sums up the (mis)management
		
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Why would you send in a nightwatchman anyway? Its not as if this Windies attack is particularly potent. Just shows England's cautious / cricket catenaccio equivalent style of play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2015)

Good to see all the focus is on the positives of a very good first day with a great ton from Bell and support from Root and the returning Stokes 

341-5 is a great start and hopefully they can put on another 150-200 and then skittles the Windies out


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## Break90 (Apr 14, 2015)

The ball that got Trott was a beauty and would have done for many top class batsmen. Cook not so much, dodgy footwork but he's bound to be a bit rusty with no test cricket for 9 months.

A bit early in the peice to be calling for their heads IMO


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 14, 2015)

Can't argue with most of these comments. Lyth should be in, this is the time to see if he can cut it at test level. A gentle introduction against mediocre opposition. If Cook continues on this downward spiral then we could be looking at an Ali / Lyth opening partnership against New Zealand. Cook's poor run, otherwise known as test bowlers no longer bowling wide and short at him, has been going on for a very long time now and is beyond a bad trot of form. If you are going to play Trott then play him at 3, round pegs, square holes etc. Ballance has done well but looked awful yesterday. That was a pub team shot that he got out to. If he fails in the second test then he drops out for Trott at 3. If they both bomb this tour then bring in James Taylor from Notts and give him the chance he has earned and deserves.

Playing Treadwell is pointless. Good one day bowler, not good enough at Test level. Why take Rashid and then not play him? Everyone keeps saying this pitch will turn so give him a chance and let us see if he can do it.

Great to see Stokes come in and play well. He can be a wonderfully destructive and positive player but I understand why he was dropped as he either plays well or dreadfully and his previous run was not good. He can make a real difference though and doesn't seem to carry the baggage that some of the others have on their backs at the moment.

Looking forward to day 2.


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## Tongo (Apr 14, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Good to see all the focus is on the positives of a very good first day with a great ton from Bell and support from Root and the returning Stokes 

341-5 is a great start and hopefully they can put on another 150-200 and then skittles the Windies out
		
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England should be winning this comfortably. The Windies were weak even before you take out the IPL players. England's performance on day one is nothing better than par. 

Plus people are concerned with the out of touch top 3 who will be hugely exposed against the better attacks in the summer.


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## Dan2501 (Apr 14, 2015)

I don't understand this squad selection at all. I like Trott, but there's no way he should be in the side ahead of Lyth. Also, how on earth are Rashid and particularly Tredwell above Moeen on the spin front? Tredwell got dropped by Kent last season and hasn't averaged under 30 in a Championship Season since 2011. I don't understand what Moeen has done wrong. He had one average series with the bat against India, but his bowling was excellent all summer. Tredwell should have played in the World Cup, as he's our best OD spinner, but shouldn't be anywhere near the Test side.

If I was in charge, for this series I'd have picked:

Cook *
Lyth 
Root
Bell
Pietersen
Moeen
Buttler +
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Finn

2 frontline spinners for the WI conditions, Finn ahead of Jordan, Lyth ahead of Trott and Pietersen simply has to play. Harsh on Ballance to miss out, but he's the most expendable, and the one in the worst form. Tredwell wouldn't make the squad, I'd pick Kerrigan ahead of him, and I don't think Stokes has done anywhere near enough yet to justify batting 6 in Test cricket. I like his bowling, and rate his bowling higher than Jordan's, but Finn needs to be given a run, and given some confidence. He could be a top, top bowler.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 14, 2015)

Ali is injured or has been injured and is coming back into fitness. I expect he will be brought back for the New Zealand series.


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## Dan2501 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ah yeah, just seen that. He's apparently being flown out the WI for either the 2nd or 3rd Test. Hopefully he'll get his spot back at 6!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 14, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			but Finn needs to be given a run, and given some confidence. He could be a top, top bowler.
		
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Sorry but I don't believe Finn will ever be a top bowler at Test level. Maybe it is the coaches' fault but he is too much of a "one trick pony" relying upon his height and banging it in. I sometimes think that he would like to vary his game but does not seem strong enough to stand up to the hierarchy.

Also never been helped by the introduction of the "Steven Finn Rule" regarding bowlers disturbing the stumps at the non-striker's end.

Jordan, Woakes and Stokes appear to have more potential for variety and can also bat whilst being more athletic in the field.


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## Dan2501 (Apr 17, 2015)

Was wrong to not pick Jordan in my team. He now gets in on slip catching alone. Incredible catch off the bowling of Joe Root last night.

Can't believe Tredwell is picking up Test wickets. How can he be so pants in domestic cricket, and yet come in and pick up 4 wickets including Chanderpaul?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2015)

Some people blossom more at higher levels. Trescothick was an average county player for his early years but became one of Englands finest opening batsmen, certainly one of the most destructive. Duncan Fletcher saw something in him and boy was he right. I used to love watching him stand tall and pummel the ball straight back past the bowler.

Today could be interesting. Wicket is getting flatter. We may need WI to self destruct a little.


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## Dan2501 (Apr 17, 2015)

That's all good with players like Tresco, but Tredwell is nothing like that. Tresco had an x-factor, what does Tredwell have? He's a traditional English off-spinner that relies on changes of pace to fool batsmen. He doesn't really turn it, has no mystery ball, isn't particularly accurate, he's certainly no Graeme Swann. He's an excellent One Day bowler, but he's been found out time and time again in red-ball cricket, and although he's started okay in this Test, I can't see it lasting. Would have been far more productive to give Rashid a go in this series to see what he's made of. Rashid also a much better all-round cricketer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2015)

Dan, I agree with you. Rashid should have been played. I was just making the point that some players are spurred on by playing at a higher level.


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## richart (Apr 17, 2015)

Good shout on dropping Ballance. Only scored 4 hundreds and three fifties in nine tests, averaging 60.:mmm: One bad innings and calls for his head.


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## fundy (Apr 17, 2015)

For those wanting to pick Rashid hes in horrid form and could barely pitch it in the warm up game on all accounts. That these are the 2 spinners vying for the role shows just how bare the cupboard it (especially as Root looked a bigger threat than Tredders last night!) Wont be long till they resort back to Moeen once hes fit I expect


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 17, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some people blossom more at higher levels. Trescothick was an average county player for his early years but became one of Englands finest opening batsmen, certainly one of the most destructive. Duncan Fletcher saw something in him and boy was he right. I used to love watching him stand tall and pummel the ball straight back past the bowler.

Today could be interesting. Wicket is getting flatter. We may need WI to self destruct a little.
		
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Trescothick was under 19 England captain with a fantastic record for them but had up and down years with footwork being an issue 

Fletcher went to watch a different player at Glamorgan but then watched Bangers smash them for 167


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## Dan2501 (Apr 17, 2015)

Tresco's footwork (or lack of) was an issue throughout his career. Reliant on his amazing hand-eye co-ordination and timing. He was very much our version of Sehwag. It's amazing he got as many runs as he did in England with his technique.


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## Beezerk (May 1, 2015)

I'm no cricket expert, more a casual fan who follows England's tests but watching Trott last week he looked way out of his depth, Mr Twitchy from Twitchville. And then today, yet another failure.
What the heck are the selectors playing at by keeping him in the firing line when he's quite obviously struggling big style!


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## Tongo (May 1, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			I'm no cricket expert, more a casual fan who follows England's tests but watching Trott last week he looked way out of his depth, Mr Twitchy from Twitchville. And then today, yet another failure.
What the heck are the selectors playing at by keeping him in the firing line when he's quite obviously struggling big style!
		
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His international career is over but the selectors, for some reason known only to themselves, gave him the gig rather than Adam Lyth, a genuine opener. That sort of tomfoolery sums up England at the moment. Both players had played well enough last summer to warrant a place in the team but Trott appears to have got the nod on his past record. They should have said to him that its great he's available for international selection but there's another decent number 3 now so he's gonna have to wait. Instead they rammed another square peg into a round hole and England are approaching the summer with question marks over the opening partnership.


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## Crow (May 1, 2015)

TigerIsAmazing said:



			I thought this was about preparing a quick meal before going out for the night!
		
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Got a strange look from my wife when I laughed out loud at that one.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 1, 2015)

Trott has to go. Another shocking failure.


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## pokerjoke (May 2, 2015)

Well done Cookie back on the ton trail.


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## Junior (May 2, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Trott has to go. Another shocking failure.
		
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I feel for him a little bit.  He is not an opener, yet, they are opening with him.  They have an opening batsmen in the squad so play him.  I get frustrated when I see this with English cricket....harks back to the old days where they continuously kept dropping and recalling players. 

Glad Cooks proved is naysayers wrong. He'll go down in history as one of the best English batsmen to play test cricket and rightly so.  Flies under the radar because his style is old school but his record speaks for itself.  Those who were calling for his head (including the terrible sky sports commentary team) should eat their words.  Forms temporay.......class is permanent.


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## Tongo (May 2, 2015)

Junior said:



			I feel for him a little bit.  He is not an opener, yet, they are opening with him.  They have an opening batsmen in the squad so play him.  I get frustrated when I see this with English cricket....harks back to the old days where they continuously kept dropping and recalling players. 

Glad Cooks proved is naysayers wrong. He'll go down in history as one of the best English batsmen to play test cricket and rightly so.  Flies under the radar because his style is old school but his record speaks for itself.  *Those who were calling for his head (including the terrible sky sports commentary team) should eat their words.  Forms temporay.......class is permanent.*

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Lets see how he gets on against the more testing attacks of NZ and Australia first.


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## Junior (May 2, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Lets see how he gets on against the more testing attacks of NZ and Australia first.
		
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Fair point but I'd rather him be opening against those teams than anyone else right now.  

Actually our batting through the side doesn't worry me, especially with good young players like Taylor, Lyth and Hales waiting in the wings.......now the third seamer and back up opening bowler.....that's a conundrum .....


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## Tongo (May 2, 2015)

Junior said:



			Fair point but I'd rather him be opening against those teams than anyone else right now.  

Actually our batting through the side doesn't worry me, especially with good young players like Taylor, Lyth and Hales waiting in the wings.......now the third seamer and back up opening bowler.....that's a conundrum .....
		
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I feel sorry for Lyth. He should have been next up after Robson but has been erroneously overlooked. England's bowling cupboard does look bare and if either/both Anderson and Broad over the summer were injured they would be in trouble.


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## fundy (May 2, 2015)

Tongo said:



			I feel sorry for Lyth. He should have been next up after Robson but has been erroneously overlooked. England's bowling cupboard does look bare and if either/both Anderson and Broad over the summer were injured they would be in trouble.
		
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not sure Broad gonna be much of a loss, looks well past his best of late, not to mention scared of the ball when batting. Be surprised if he lasts the summer out personally.

Andersen however needs to be wrapped in cotton wool lol because we're going to be over reliant on him it seems


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2015)

Would like to see Overton a go in the summer 

Think he is going to be cracking - also add Dockerall as a proper test spinner


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## Junior (May 2, 2015)

Tongo said:



			I feel sorry for Lyth. He should have been next up after Robson but has been erroneously overlooked. England's bowling cupboard does look bare and if either/both Anderson and Broad over the summer were injured they would be in trouble.
		
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Me too, he should have played for Trott.  He deserves his chance.  I like Trott as a number 3, but to be thrust back in as an opener was unfair to him too.


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## fundy (May 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would like to see Overton a go in the summer 

Think he is going to be cracking - also add Dockerall as a proper test spinner
		
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not seen much of Overton this year, looked as though he was a yard of pace short of where he needed to be last year but definitely one with potential, but hes barely bowled any overs yet this season it seems. 

as for Dockrell, not sure hes played any cricket at all yet this year in the CC

any of the guys wanting a go really have to go and get wickets in the domestic game to force the selectors hands (not that anyone has got hatfuls yet)


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## HomerJSimpson (May 2, 2015)

Whether Trott is an opener or not, and even batting at three, chances are he's going to face the quick bowlers regularly (especially given the way we've opened innings in the last year or so) and either way, he's desperately short of confidence and technique and with many younger options coming through now is the time to give then a chance. 

I am pleased to see Cook get back to some form but still not convinced that when the Ashes start, or even against NZ he won't start to struggle again. I hope he has turned the corner but I fear this is still painting over some cracks


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2015)

fundy said:



			not seen much of Overton this year, looked as though he was a yard of pace short of where he needed to be last year but definitely one with potential, but hes barely bowled any overs yet this season it seems. 

as for Dockrell, not sure hes played any cricket at all yet this year in the CC

any of the guys wanting a go really have to go and get wickets in the domestic game to force the selectors hands (not that anyone has got hatfuls yet)
		
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Jamie started his career well but has stagnated a little - Craig jumped ahead recently but think overall Jamie is better bowler with Craig more the all rounder - if they can work on Craig's bowling he could be another Freddie 

Dockrill still getting back to fitness after an injury after WC I understand - should certainly give him a go in the ODI at some point because he can get the ball spinning and lot of variety 


Lyth I think will open against the Kiwis but still an issue with Jordan IMO don't think he will ever be a bowler to take wickets consistently and someone to worry the oppo

Cook was always going to recapture his form - many have written him off in the past only for him to shove big runs down their throats and you can see the confidence growing in him again now and a big scoring Cook will be a massive boost for the ashes


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## HomerJSimpson (May 2, 2015)

At least the bowlers are doing ok. Not happy with the balance of the attack and think Broad looks jaded and we have lacked a world class spinner since Swann left


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## fundy (May 2, 2015)

Funny those who moan about Cook being written off are talking as though hes scoring hundreds for fun after one of them (against an ordinary attack then he gave it away rather than kick on). England need him to score very heavily this summer but not convinced his technique is anywhere close to where it was a couple of years ago and hes got as lot of hard work ahead for the summer imo, both NZ and Aussies will attack his weakness and give him little to score off on his hips.

Agree re Jordan, one of too many bits and pieces players in the side currently, not good enough with bat or ball for me (big question mark on Stokes too for me, and Ali seems to have a reputation he hasnt quite earned yet). Plenty got a lot to prove, only Root and Andersen world class on current evidence and theyre gonna need plenty of help against 2 of the best 3 sides about


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## HomerJSimpson (May 2, 2015)

Trott out for 9. Surely that is it or play him at 3 if form improves but let him go back to his club and start making runs again


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## Wabinez (May 2, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Trott out for 9. Surely that is it or play him at 3 if form improves but let him go back to his club and start making runs again
		
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Trott's test career should end here. Get Lyth in to open with Cook (sadly).


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## Dan2501 (May 2, 2015)

Trott's done. Should never have been recalled. Lyth should have played this series.


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## shagster (May 3, 2015)

trott = another second rate south african reject
why take him at all 
should have played lyth as the clue is he is an opening bat
back to the old days of test cricket being run by idiots
why not give players a chance, ie rashid as he is a good bat
cook is still a good bat but stick him only in test team
we should be getting players ready for ashes, only important test series for us, other nations have their must win series
we have to use players born in this country, regardless of ethic origin, not players that cant make the south african team, which includes pieterson, because if he was good enough, he would have played for them, but they had far better than him or trott who is 34, not exactly one for the future
the trouble is with most sports, its run by the old school tie brigade, just look how much the head of the tennis association receives, absolute joke

shagster


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## HomerJSimpson (May 3, 2015)

England currently 62-6. A lead of 130 and in danger of getting skittled out very cheaply and giving the West Indies a huge chance. It's spin doing the damage and would be made for Swan. Hope Ali can replicate the form with the ball from last year but it's another area England seem short of a world class performer


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## Dan2501 (May 3, 2015)

shagster said:



			trott = another second rate south african reject
why take him at all 
should have played lyth as the clue is he is an opening bat
back to the old days of test cricket being run by idiots
why not give players a chance, ie rashid as he is a good bat
cook is still a good bat but stick him only in test team
we should be getting players ready for ashes, only important test series for us, other nations have their must win series
we have to use players born in this country, regardless of ethic origin, not players that cant make the south african team, which includes pieterson, because if he was good enough, he would have played for them, but they had far better than him or trott who is 34, not exactly one for the future
the trouble is with most sports, its run by the old school tie brigade, just look how much the head of the tennis association receives, absolute joke

shagster
		
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What a load of drivel. Pietersen and Trott both have English parents, and were absolutely exceptional batsmen in their time. Trott's time has definitely past, not 100% on Pietersen yet, but I'd suggest he should be in the England side for the next 2 years at least. They had to find out about Trott this winter though. He had a good season last season, and if he'd been plundering runs for Warwickshire at the start of the season, and Lyth we were struggling people would be asking for him back. Now though we know that Trott is done.

Embarrassing that we got skittled so cheaply. This England side has some serious issues. If we fail to beat a poor West Indies side, we should just give up. We're never going to beat NZ or Australia if we can't beat this WI side.


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## Piece (May 3, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Trott's done. Should never have been recalled. Lyth should have played this series.
		
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Should have been recalled to his best position, number 3. Putting him to open was madness but symptomatic of this current cricket regime. Yes maybe Lyth should be given a go, yet is he going to go the same way as other recent openers we've tried? Carberry, Robson, Compton all given limited chances.

We should ask Australia to postpone The Ashes by 12 months; it could get very embarrassing by Sept....


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## HomerJSimpson (May 3, 2015)

Piece said:



			Should have been recalled to his best position, number 3. Putting him to open was madness but symptomatic of this current cricket regime. Yes maybe Lyth should be given a go, yet is he going to go the same way as other recent openers we've tried? Carberry, Robson, Compton all given limited chances.

We should ask Australia to postpone The Ashes by 12 months; it could get very embarrassing by Sept....
		
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It will be a trouncing on current form. I can see a home defeat against New Zealand too.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2015)

Piece said:



			Should have been recalled to his best position, number 3. Putting him to open was madness but symptomatic of this current cricket regime. Yes maybe Lyth should be given a go, yet is he going to go the same way as other recent openers we've tried? Carberry, Robson, Compton all given limited chances.

We should ask Australia to postpone The Ashes by 12 months; it could get very embarrassing by Sept....
		
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Agree should have been put in at three not opening 

This was the perfect tour for people to find form and to see who others work out 

Still think it's shocking how they treated Compton and Robson both who did well -especially Compton. Never really liked Carberry.

Certainly would have taken Compton again and given him another go and had Trott at three followed by Ballance , Bell and Root

Think come the summer and Kiwi and Aussies and can see England surprising a few


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## fundy (May 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Agree should have been put in at three not opening 

This was the perfect tour for people to find form and to see who others work out 

Still think it's shocking how they treated Compton and Robson both who did well -especially Compton. Never really liked Carberry.

Certainly would have taken Compton again and given him another go and had Trott at three followed by Ballance , Bell and Root

Think come the summer and Kiwi and Aussies and can see England surprising a few
		
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Comptons face didnt fit and put a few noses out of joint, didnt cosy up to the right people and hence paid the price, sums up the England management of the last few years sadly. Think he was the best of those been tried and shouldve been given far longer to prove himself. Never saw Carberry as a test opener personally but he was poorly treated, guttsed it out against Johnson et al yet never got given the soft series as most do to see if he could push on. Robson an odd one, surprised he was picked when he was, techincally not ready for test cricket, would like to think hes young enough to get another shot in a few years if he improves though


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## Dan2501 (May 3, 2015)

Should he have been called up at 3? Ballance averages 69.00 at #3. Was worth giving Trott a go, but he should have been dropped after two Tests. It's a joke that Lyth and Rashid have been called up and not used. Bet Yorkshire are happy!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Should he have been called up at 3? Ballance averages 69.00 at #3. Was worth giving Trott a go, but he should have been dropped after two Tests. It's a joke that Lyth and Rashid have been called up and not used. Bet Yorkshire are happy!
		
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Not sure why Rashid should have played but Lyth maybe yes but they wouldn't be the first pair to go on tour and not play a test a happens every tour 

Trott before he had his issues was one of the best number threes in the world - he regained form and IMO was well worth the shot to be given another go. His ability is still there and think he had earned the right to be given a shot after his personal issues were sorted - but as fundy said the current regime did as they usually do and mess it up by putting him as an opener


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## Dan2501 (May 3, 2015)

He was, but why would you replace someone who's averaging 69 at #3 with someone who left a tour last time he was away with England? I like Trott, but I personally wouldn't have picked him for International cricket again, especially an away tour. If he was going to be picked, he should have batted down the order, at 5 or 6. No way Ballance should have been replaced by Trott at 3.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			He was, but why would you replace someone who's averaging 69 at #3 with someone who left a tour last time he was away with England? I like Trott, but I personally wouldn't have picked him for International cricket again, especially an away tour. If he was going to be picked, he should have batted down the order, at 5 or 6. No way Ballance should have been replaced by Trott at 3.
		
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I think with both at the top of their games you would have Trott in at three - Ballance at 4 would have given the security of someone solid with Bell and Root waiting in the wings - could have been and potentially should have been a very solid line up 

Cook
Compton/Lyth
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Jordan
Anderson

Just need someone to replace Jordan IMO - either a quality spinner or top class paceman

Now think with Trott stuttering it will be Ali in at 6 with everyone moving up one


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## fundy (May 3, 2015)

Cook been awfully uninspiring in the field here, not helped by picking lots of bits and pieces cricketers, 4 so called seamers and only a part time spinner (despite it being a really dry wicket)  but surely we can do better than follow the ball at the top level!!!

Long term Cook has credit in terms of runs (but not as skipper imo), Root is top top class, Andersen would get in any side. Other than that personally think no one else in the side should be secure in their place as you can raise doubts about all of them (harsh on Butler as hes done well with the bat but his keeping isnt close to being good enough). Most of them will keep their places due to a combination of weak management and a lack of viable alternatives.

Will be a very long summer for English cricket fans imo against 2 of the best 3 sides out there


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## huds1475 (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think with both at the top of their games you would have Trott in at three - Ballance at 4 would have given the security of someone solid with Bell and Root waiting in the wings - could have been and potentially should have been a very solid line up 

Cook
Compton/Lyth
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Jordan
Anderson

Just need someone to replace Jordan IMO - either a quality spinner or top class paceman

Now think with Trott stuttering it will be Ali in at 6 with everyone moving up one
		
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Thats the dullest top four I can think of. 

England are playing the wrong brand of cricket. Bringing back another grinder like Trott doesn't inspire me that we have the people in place to set the direction properly.

Its not 1975 any more (as the World Cup showed, albeit for a different format). Good teams win by playing aggressive cricket, with bat and ball, putting  teams under pressure and, most importantly, entertaining.

I can't remember the last time I enjoyed watching England bat...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

huds1475 said:



			Thats the dullest top four I can think of. 

England are playing the wrong brand of cricket. Bringing back another grinder like Trott doesn't inspire me that we have the people in place to set the direction properly.

Its not 1975 any more (as the World Cup showed, albeit for a different format). Good teams win by playing aggressive cricket, with bat and ball, put teams under pressure and, most importantly, entertain.

I can't remember the last time I enjoyed watching England bat...
		
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If it scores runs in test cricket then being dull i can put up with - if the team can put on 500 in dull fashion then skittle a team out then ill put up with the dullness. There is a fine line between reckless and entertaining - in ODI WC England's game plan was all wrong - no doubt about that at all but test match you need to find the balance - Root and Bell can certainly entertain - as can Buttler but nothing beats building an innings.


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## huds1475 (May 4, 2015)

There's building an innings and there's putting too much pressure on an inexperienced middle order.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

huds1475 said:



			There's building an innings and there's putting too much pressure on an inexperienced middle order.
		
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True but our middle order has Bell,Root, Stokes - all with Test match tons to their name. 


I just dont believe its all doom and gloom for England in the test arena just yet.


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## Dan2501 (May 4, 2015)

Nice to see Cook putting all the blame on Graves rather than being a man and taking responsibility for what was a terrible performance from his team. We should have smashed that WI team. Changes need to be made, and the sooner they happen the better. The first change that needs to happen is to bin Moores. He's not an International coach. Then in Tests, I'd be picking:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Moeen
Buttler
Woakes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson

No way Buttler should be batting 8, and Jordan and Stokes have not done enough to keep their places. Woakes held the #8 spot before his injury, and when he's fit again he should come straight back in.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Nice to see Cook putting all the blame on Graves rather than being a man and taking responsibility for what was a terrible performance from his team. We should have smashed that WI team. Changes need to be made, and the sooner they happen the better. The first change that needs to happen is to bin Moores. He's not an International coach. Then in Tests, I'd be picking:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Moeen
Buttler
Woakes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson

No way Buttler should be batting 8, and Jordan and Stokes have not done enough to keep their places. Woakes held the #8 spot before his injury, and when he's fit again he should come straight back in.
		
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Agree on Moores - twice he has had the job and both of those times its being England at their worst over the last decade

Dont see Woakes and Plunkett being the bowlers to have that something extra - such a shame Finn has been destroyed as his ability is up there with the best .


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## Dan2501 (May 4, 2015)

Woakes and Plunkett aren't amazing, but they're better than Stokes and Jordan. All Jordan offers is his exceptional fielding, not sure what Stokes brings to this side. Not good enough to bat in the Top 6, and not good enough to be a frontline bowler. Plunkett deserves another chance. Was excellent last season, has serious pace and bowled decently in spells last summer. He certainly would have offered something different in this series!

Would love Finn to get it back. An amazing talent that should be world class, just can't pull it together. When Anderson goes, I think Broad, Plunkett and Finn could be a seriously good Test pace attack.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



*Woakes and Plunkett aren't amazing, but they're better than Stokes and Jordan*. All Jordan offers is his exceptional fielding, not sure what Stokes brings to this side. Not good enough to bat in the Top 6, and not good enough to be a frontline bowler. Plunkett deserves another chance. Was excellent last season, has serious pace and bowled decently in spells last summer. He certainly would have offered something different in this series!

Would love Finn to get it back. An amazing talent that should be world class, just can't pull it together. When Anderson goes, I think Broad, Plunkett and Finn could be a seriously good Test pace attack.
		
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Thats very much debatable - Stokes IMO has the best potential of the lot both with bat and ball. Plunkett certianly has the pace to trouble players - also seems to get extra bounce when needed. Woakes i think is along the lines of Jordan - just a decent bowler but nothing extra special. 

really do have belief that the Overtons will come through this season


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## Piece (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Woakes and Plunkett aren't amazing, but they're better than Stokes and Jordan. All Jordan offers is his exceptional fielding, not sure what Stokes brings to this side. Not good enough to bat in the Top 6, and not good enough to be a frontline bowler. Plunkett deserves another chance. Was excellent last season, has serious pace and bowled decently in spells last summer. He certainly would have offered something different in this series!

Would love Finn to get it back. An amazing talent that should be world class, just can't pull it together. When Anderson goes, I think Broad, Plunkett and Finn could be a seriously good Test pace attack.
		
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Of the current attack, only Anderson is worthy of a place. Broad has been average for a couple of years and his batting has gone from a very good number 7 to a bad no 10. Jordan is rubbish; limited pace and bowls two fours balls an over. Stokes has talent but too samey with ball. Finn has had his chance and the way McCullum shredded him in the WC, he wont send any fears through the NZ or Aussies this summer. Plunkett, Tremlett, Rankin are all from the same pot and just don't have it.

I don't know enough about the county scene to offer alternate names. We do need some variety, a left armer, some one who knows what a length ball is 6x times an over and, most importantly, a dedicated spinner! Treadwell and Ali arent the answer. If you pick a young spinner give him the chance!

Heard that Strauss is favourite for the new top job in the ECB. Cant help thinking more the same management style....


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Piece said:



			Of the current attack, only Anderson is worthy of a place. Broad has been average for a couple of years and his batting has gone from a very good number 7 to a bad no 10. Jordan is rubbish; limited pace and bowls two fours balls an over. Stokes has talent but too samey with ball. Finn has had his chance and the way McCullum shredded him in the WC, he wont send any fears through the NZ or Aussies this summer. Plunkett, Tremlett, Rankin are all from the same pot and just don't have it.

I don't know enough about the county scene to offer alternate names. We do need some variety, *a left armer,* some one who knows what a length ball is 6x times an over and, most importantly, a dedicated spinner! Treadwell and Ali arent the answer. If you pick a young spinner give him the chance!

Heard that Strauss is favourite for the new top job in the ECB. Cant help thinking more the same management style....
		
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Harry Gurney certainly fits that gap but think he lacks a bit of extra bite

Danny Briggs should be given a proper go


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## Tongo (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



*Nice to see Cook putting all the blame on Graves rather than being a man and taking responsibility for what was a terrible performance from his team*. We should have smashed that WI team. Changes need to be made, and the sooner they happen the better. The first change that needs to happen is to bin Moores. He's not an International coach. Then in Tests, I'd be picking:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Moeen
Buttler
Woakes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson

No way Buttler should be batting 8, and Jordan and Stokes have not done enough to keep their places. Woakes held the #8 spot before his injury, and when he's fit again he should come straight back in.
		
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He's an embarrassment of a captain.


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## Tongo (May 4, 2015)

huds1475 said:



			Thats the dullest top four I can think of. 

England are playing the wrong brand of cricket. Bringing back another grinder like Trott doesn't inspire me that we have the people in place to set the direction properly.

Its not 1975 any more (as the World Cup showed, albeit for a different format). Good teams win by playing aggressive cricket, with bat and ball, putting  teams under pressure and, most importantly, entertaining.

I can't remember the last time I enjoyed watching England bat...
		
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England are playing catenaccio cricket at the moment. Joyless, boring, mediocre and, ultimately, not bearing decent results.


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## ColchesterFC (May 4, 2015)

Anyone know much about Tymal Mills? I haven't seen him myself but have read a lot of good reports about him. Did see he was suffering from a back injury a few weeks ago but is reported to be rapid, bowling well over 90mph.


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Anyone know much about Tymal Mills? I haven't seen him myself but have read a lot of good reports about him. Did see he was suffering from a back injury a few weeks ago but is reported to be rapid, bowling well over 90mph.
		
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Left arm quick, been at Essex who nursed him through several back injuries etc, returned to fitness then turned his back and joined Sussex. Had a very ordinary start to the season, he has pace but currently not a lot to go with it. Used to have a decent inswinger but struggling greatly for control it seems in the few games hes played so far this year. A long way from being an international candidate, assuming you keep him fit which is by no means a given


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Tongo said:



*He's an embarrassment of a captain*.
		
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Very harsh - struggling at times - but "embarrassment" ?!. 

And think he is spot on in what he has said about Graves

Its not right what Graves said and would have automatically fired the Windies up.


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## Tongo (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very harsh - struggling at times - but "embarrassment" ?!. 

And think he is spot on in what he has said about Graves

Its not right what Graves said and would have automatically fired the Windies up.
		
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Too much whinging and whining. As a captain i'd expect Cook to act less like a spoilt school boy and more like a leader. 

The Graves thing really is a smokescreen. England lost from being in the box seat and the focus is on the comments of Graves rather than the players not performing. The West Indies are mediocre. But so are England. Maybe Moores' data will eventually tell them that.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Too much whinging and whining. As a captain i'd expect Cook to act less like a spoilt school boy and more like a leader. 

The Graves thing really is a smokescreen. England lost from being in the box seat and the focus is on the comments of Graves rather than the players not performing. The West Indies are mediocre. But so are England. Maybe Moores' data will eventually tell them that.
		
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It didnt go well and the batsmen had a mare yesterday and calling the oppo mediocre isnt the smartest move 

Cook does need to be ruthless at times but an embarrassment is going too far - its always the same in cricket in this country - they win and will build the players up - lose and they get crucified instead of getting behind them.


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Seems Trott has retired from international cricket. Sad way for him to go out was an excellent player for England up to a few years ago


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Seems Trott has retired from international cricket. Sad way for him to go out was an excellent player for England up to a few years ago
		
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I agree but to be honest he hasn't seemed to be happy since his return and looked out of form in a big way. Shame his career was blighted my his personal issues/illness and I hope he manages some form at county level (I assume it's only test cricket he's retired from)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Seems Trott has retired from international cricket. Sad way for him to go out was an excellent player for England up to a few years ago
		
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I'll always remember him for his exploits against the Aussies in the three ashes when he was supreme

He tried to come back and looked delighted to be back but got squeezed in as an opener which wasn't right but has his head up high IMO


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

Shame he got shoe horned into the opener position and the public (not necessarily cricket fans) will remember him going out as a failure on this tour which is unfair as he has been a good player for England. I think the management has some questions to be answered not only why they put him in opening when there are a few other specialist openers out there that deserve a crack, but also what their plan is for the side. I think there are 4-5 in the current line up not good enough on current form and can't understand why new blood not being given a chance


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## Dan2501 (May 4, 2015)

Strauss set to become ECB Director of Cricket. There goes KP's chances of a comeback.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Strauss set to become ECB Director of Cricket. There goes KP's chances of a comeback.
		
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That's one good thing from the appointment - hopefully put the Pieterson talk to bed once and for all 

Wonder what he will do about Moores


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

Interesting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32579603 Not sure about this yet, especially if Moores is left in charge of team selection and coaching


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## Dan2501 (May 4, 2015)

I'd like to see KP back, but he has to earn it. If he's the best batsman in the country this summer, then we'd be stupid not to recall him for The Ashes.

Hopefully Strauss and Graves will agree to bin Moores. He's not the right man for the job.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I'd like to see KP back, but he has to earn it. If he's the best batsman in the country this summer, then we'd be stupid not to recall him for The Ashes.

Hopefully Strauss and Graves will agree to bin Moores. He's not the right man for the job.
		
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Think his time has gone - insulted too many people and burnt too many bridges , caused too many issues at every opportunity - don't think he will ever bury the ego to remember it's about the team and not his personal battles.


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Strauss a step backwards for me, another who is too ingrained in the establishment and not prepared to think outside the box or rock the boat, basically another yes man within the system. Hugely disappointing imho


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Strauss a step backwards for me, another who is too ingrained in the establishment and not prepared to think outside the box or rock the boat, basically another yes man within the system. Hugely disappointing imho
		
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But was very successful as a player and captain and could easily bring that thinking to the table

Maybe certainly worth seeing how he does first.


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## chrisd (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think his time has gone - insulted too many people and burnt too many bridges , caused too many issues at every opportunity - don't think he will ever bury the ego to remember it's about the team and not his personal battles.
		
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I do hope you're right Phil. If he ever gets a call up again I shall never watch cricket again that's for sure


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But was very successful as a player and captain and could easily bring that thinking to the table

Maybe certainly worth seeing how he does first.
		
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Decent enough player, nothing ingenious as a captain just a lead from the front with runs type of skipper. Definitely not the best man for the job available but the obvious choice for the establishment.

All my opinion but dont expect there to be too many changes if he does get the job and currently English cricket needs a total reform from top to bottom and someone who is prepared to take some risks and change things


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Decent enough player, nothing ingenious as a captain just a lead from the front with runs type of skipper. Definitely not the best man for the job available but the obvious choice for the establishment.

All my opinion but dont expect there to be too many changes if he does get the job and currently English cricket needs a total reform from top to bottom and someone who is prepared to take some risks and change things
		
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Was skipper when we steamrollered the Aussies away - that's not to be sniffed at 

Agree that lots do need changing and could easily see Strauss implement that - I'm more worried about Graves


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was skipper when we steamrollered the Aussies away - that's not to be sniffed at 

Agree that lots do need changing and could easily see Strauss implement that - I'm more worried about Graves
		
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I prefer to judge skippers when the side is struggling, tend to see the best of the good ones then compared to those who have no alternative plans and just start ball following. Strauss like Cook falls into the latter category for me. You couldve skippered that side to victory in the Aus series


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

Very much an establishment type of man so won't ruffle too many feathers. Whether he can make the brave decisions or bring some modern thinking and fluidity to a tired structure is doubtful


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			I prefer to judge skippers when the side is struggling, tend to see the best of the good ones then compared to those who have no alternative plans and just start ball following. Strauss like Cook falls into the latter category for me. You couldve skippered that side to victory in the Aus series 

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Didnt Strauss take over after the Pieterson debacle when England were awful and move them up to the top test nation in the world ?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

Until Moores goes I don't see England being anything but average. Will get beat by NZ and Australia and blown apart next winter in SA


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didnt Strauss take over after the Pieterson debacle when England were awful and move them up to the top test nation in the world ?
		
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England were hardly awful at that point, KP was only in charge for a handful of games post Vaughan. Some would argue the biggest issue around then was Moores. Sounds familiar....


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Sir Geoffrey's opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...nks-he-is-untouchable-as-England-captain.html


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2015)

Typically to the point as you'd expect from Boycott but absolutely spot on


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			England were hardly awful at that point, KP was only in charge for a handful of games post Vaughan. Some would argue the biggest issue around then was Moores. Sounds familiar....
		
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Hadn't they lost two series in a row ?  SA and then India ?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Sir Geoffrey's opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...nks-he-is-untouchable-as-England-captain.html

Click to expand...

Imagine Boycott being negative about someone who just recently had a dig about someone from Yorkshire. Boycott has always been all mouth and numerous times he has got it all wrong

Would rather listen to someone like Aggers who at least engages the brain before speaking


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine Boycott being negative about someone who just recently had a dig about someone from Yorkshire. Boycott has always been all mouth and numerous times he has got it all wrong

Would rather listen to someone like Aggers who at least engages the brain before speaking
		
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Aggers? seriously? ok we're gonna have to agree to disagree lol


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2015)

fundy said:



			Aggers? seriously? ok we're gonna have to agree to disagree lol
		
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Yep certainly listen him over a blithering idiot like Boycott who maybe passionate but so far behind 

Botham is good as is Butcher but add Willis and Hussain to Boycott corner of planks


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## fundy (May 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep certainly listen him over a blithering idiot like Boycott who maybe passionate but so far behind 

Botham is good as is Butcher but add Willis and Hussain to Boycott corner of planks 

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We agree on Butcher and Willis lol, you have Nasser and Botham the wrong way round though!!!! My thoughts on Botham not printable on here, was an idol as a kid, as a commentator he is worse than horrific. Nasser credited with most of the revival in English cricket for me, would happily have him in charge of the ECB (albeit hes been in the sky combox a bit too long and is a bit more mainstream these days)


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## Dan2501 (May 4, 2015)

Botham is a horrific commentator. Has no idea on the County system and just plucks names out of a hat when he's suggesting changes to the England side. Atherton should be the sort of character this England side is looking to for a bit of hand, whether he'd be interested is another matter, but he certainly knows what he's talking about, and is intensely passionate about the game, and English cricket.


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## Tongo (May 5, 2015)

fundy said:



			Sir Geoffrey's opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...nks-he-is-untouchable-as-England-captain.html

Click to expand...




HomerJSimpson said:



			Typically to the point as you'd expect from Boycott but absolutely spot on
		
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Indeed. For once I agree wholeheartedly with Boycott.


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## Tongo (May 5, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Strauss set to become ECB Director of Cricket. There goes KP's chances of a comeback.
		
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Until KP scores some runs for Surrey everything else regarding his comeback is irrelevant.


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## Dan2501 (May 5, 2015)

Agreed. Has shown flashes of good form, but hasn't kicked on and got a big championship score yet. 170, 19, 53*, 32 and 8* is a promising start though. A big hundred in his next game and he'll be looking good.


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## Piece (May 5, 2015)

fundy said:



			Strauss a step backwards for me, another who is too ingrained in the establishment and not prepared to think outside the box or rock the boat, basically another yes man within the system. Hugely disappointing imho
		
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This. Great pundit but 'goes to the same tailors' as the current management team.


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## Piece (May 5, 2015)

fundy said:



			Sir Geoffrey's opinion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...nks-he-is-untouchable-as-England-captain.html

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Good article and I agree totally on this occasion with Boycott. More of the same is why we stalled after we became no. 1 test-playing nation. The game doesn't stay still and we haven't moved on since 5 years ago. It doesn't take long to turn around a side with the right captain and coach - here, I'm specifically looking at the Aussies when Lehman took over a few years ago. They went from being rubbish to excellent in the course of a year.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 5, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32583193

Seems Swann thinks Strauss is a good choice 

 I wonder what Boycott would have said if a Yorkshireman was given the role ie Vaughan


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32583193

Seems Swann thinks Strauss is a good choice 

 I wonder what Boycott would have said if a Yorkshireman was given the role ie Vaughan
		
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Ex player recommends his former captain is a good choice. Not much of a recommendation for me! Does seem to me a bit of "here's the new boss, same as the old boss"


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## Piece (May 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32583193

Seems Swann thinks Strauss is a good choice 

 I wonder what Boycott would have said if a Yorkshireman was given the role ie Vaughan
		
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It's funny reading that article. No-one knows the job brief, but whatever it is, Straussy is the best for it! :rofl:


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## fundy (May 5, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...f-cricket-job-due-to-limitations-of-role.html

Vaughan ruled himself out, think he has too many others things on media wise and would want more freedom to change things than appears to be being offered


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## JCW (May 5, 2015)

fundy said:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...f-cricket-job-due-to-limitations-of-role.html

Vaughan ruled himself out, think he has too many others things on media wise and would want more freedom to change things than appears to be being offered
		
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Moores needs to go , was not any good 1st time he did it , worse now and as for KP , Move on , he is the past and best left there ...................EYC


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## Dan2501 (May 6, 2015)

Why can't we have a fella like Gayle at the top of the order? What a player this man is. 117* off 53 balls, his 5th IPL century. Has 3055 IPL runs at 48.49 and gets them at a strike rate of 155.15. What a player.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 6, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Why can't we have a fella like Gayle at the top of the order? What a player this man is. 117* off 53 balls, his 5th IPL century. Has 3055 IPL runs at 48.49 and gets them at a strike rate of 155.15. What a player.
		
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Think you'll find he's a one off and even if English cricket found someone, he'd have this natural ability coached out of him and told that it's not sporting to keep hitting it away from the fielders.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 6, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Why can't we have a fella like Gayle at the top of the order? What a player this man is. 117* off 53 balls, his 5th IPL century. Has 3055 IPL runs at 48.49 and gets them at a strike rate of 155.15. What a player.
		
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When it comes to T20 we currently have the No 3 ranked batsmen in the World with Gayle at 6


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## HomerJSimpson (May 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes to T20 we currently have the No 3 ranked batsmen in the World with Gayle at 6 

Click to expand...

Rankings mean nothing. Especially when the other ten players don't contribute. Same in any team sport


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## Tongo (May 7, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Think you'll find he's a one off and even if English cricket found someone, he'd have this natural ability coached out of him and told that it's not sporting to keep hitting it away from the fielders.
		
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Spot on sir! :clap:


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## fundy (May 8, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...Moores-set-to-be-sacked-as-England-coach.html


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## Dan2501 (May 8, 2015)

It's the right decision. Moores was poor last time, and has been as bad this time. Maybe KP was right in trying to bin him in India when he was skipper? Hopefully Gillespie will take the gig and start taking us forwards. He's done a superb job at Yorkshire!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 8, 2015)

Moores going is the right thing 

Never been good enough at the top level 

Interesting to hear Dizzy and Langer are in the frame but not sure if they should be in charge of the England team as an Ashes series comes around

If going abroad then would prefer to look at Kirsten and would give Donald a go ?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 8, 2015)

Think Langer is a great choice. Never seems to be a problem when foreign sides have used English coaches and come over here. At least he'll know all about the opposition and maybe can find a team to stop an Ashes whitewash but there again I'm not sure he does miracles


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## fundy (May 9, 2015)

Pretty sure Langer is next in line for the Aussie job so unlikely to be a realistic option


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## Liverpoolphil (May 9, 2015)

fundy said:



			Pretty sure Langer is next in line for the Aussie job so unlikely to be a realistic option
		
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Will be a good choice for them 

I still would prefer to see us not look at an Aussie - I wouldn't expect to see Australia appoint a Pom regardless of ability


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## fundy (May 9, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will be a good choice for them 

I still would prefer to see us not look at an Aussie - I wouldn't expect to see Australia appoint a Pom regardless of ability
		
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Tend to agree, if its gonna be an aussie its more likely to be Dizzy with him having been in county cricket for a few years, not sure he'd accept even if offered tho!


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Just what Strauss wanted at the start of his tenure, Pietersen being 150 not out for Surrey in a county championship game lol


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

It should be exactly what England want. Why wouldn't you want a top class international batsman in prime form ahead of a summer where we're playing 2 Test teams with the strongest bowling attacks in world cricket? Pietersen should be treated like all other batsmen, if he's good enough to play, and is one of the best players we have, he should be picked. I'd pick him, but I think you all know that by now. Right now I'd be going with:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Buttler
Moeen
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson 

For the first Test!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Pieterson should never and IMO will never be picked for England again - this is the same person that wrote a book insulting all his teammates and that's not even discussing his selfish attitude when playing- he burnt his bridges a long time ago and I believe England have got past Pieterson never playing for them again and it's time for media and others to realise that - no matter how many runs he scores.


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			It should be exactly what England want. Why wouldn't you want a top class international batsman in prime form ahead of a summer where we're playing 2 Test teams with the strongest bowling attacks in world cricket? Pietersen should be treated like all other batsmen, if he's good enough to play, and is one of the best players we have, he should be picked. I'd pick him, but I think you all know that by now. Right now I'd be going with:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Buttler
Moeen
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson 

For the first Test!
		
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Not a lot of bowling if its a flat one at Lords! No chance we only go in with 3 seamers and a part time spinner with no medium pace all rounders, way too unbalanced that


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

Moeen Ali is not a part-time spinner. We don't need 5 or 6 bowlers. 3 quicks, spin from Moeen and part-time stuff from Root is plenty of bowling.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Moeen Ali is not a part-time spinner. We don't need 5 or 6 bowlers. 3 quicks, spin from Moeen and part-time stuff from Root is plenty of bowling.
		
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If Ali is not a part time spinner then he is a poor main front line spinner 

The line up does need another bowler 

Stokes will be in the line up IMO

Cook
Lyth/Hales
Ballance
Bell
Root
Ali
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Anderson
Plunkett/Woakes/Jordan


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2015)

Fundy, you just beat me to it. Moeen is not good enough to do the Swann job and Plunkett is best used as an impact bowler in short bursts. If you are going in with 3 seamers, bad idea, then you need a Bresnan who can bowl all day and a reliable spinner which we currently do not have. I would have Plunkett in, probably Wood from Durham as well. It rarely spins at Lords so I would drop Moeen and play another bowler, possibly Bresnan as he is a reliable workhorse who has started the season well.

Whatever happens we desparately need to find a dedicated spin bowler as the attack is short without one and thinking you can turn a part time bowler into a full time one is deluded thinking. (If you think Moeen is a proper spin bowler then see how many overs Worcs get out of him)

As for Pietersen I am with LP. Never again, move on.


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

Ali was superb last summer against the 2 best countries at playing spin-bowling, something that people seem to have forgotten incredibly quickly. People judging him on a game where he had literally just come back from a bad abdominal injury with no cricket are incredibly harsh. Moeen is a front-line spinner, and a very good one.

Not sure what Stokes offers TBH. Average with the ball, average with the bat. Against the world-class bowling attacks we're facing this summer, I'd like as much batting as possible.

Hales is a good shout to open though, is in some serious form. Hasn't been opening for Notts though, and isn't generally an opener in FC cricket; typically comes in at first drop.


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Moeen Ali is not a part-time spinner. We don't need 5 or 6 bowlers. 3 quicks, spin from Moeen and part-time stuff from Root is plenty of bowling.
		
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lol and Andersen and Broad burnt out before we even get to the ashes. In a year when we play 17 tests one thing is for sure we wont be going in with less than 5 bowlers in any of them


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Fundy, you just beat me to it. Moeen is not good enough to do the Swann job and Plunkett is best used as an impact bowler in short bursts. If you are going in with 3 seamers, bad idea, then you need a Bresnan who can bowl all day and a reliable spinner which we currently do not have. I would have Plunkett in, probably Wood from Durham as well. It rarely spins at Lords so I would drop Moeen and play another bowler, possibly Bresnan as he is a reliable workhorse who has started the season well.

*Whatever happens we desparately need to find a dedicated spin bowler* as the attack is short without one and thinking you can turn a part time bowler into a full time one is deluded thinking. (If you think Moeen is a proper spin bowler then see how many overs Worcs get out of him)

As for Pietersen I am with LP. Never again, move on.
		
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look around county cricket and this is going to be an ongoing problem it seems, the cupboard is very very bare sadly, very few putting there hand up for a go


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

Can someone explain what exactly Moeen Ali has done wrong? And why he is suddenly not the best spinner in the country?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Ali was superb last summer against the 2 best countries at playing spin-bowling, something that people seem to have forgotten incredibly quickly. People judging him on a game where he had literally just come back from a bad abdominal injury with no cricket are incredibly harsh. Moeen is a front-line spinner, and a very good one.

Not sure what Stokes offers TBH. Average with the ball, average with the bat. Against the world-class bowling attacks we're facing this summer, I'd like as much batting as possible.

Hales is a good shout to open though, is in some serious form. Hasn't been opening for Notts though, and isn't generally an opener in FC cricket; typically comes in at first drop.
		
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I believe Ali and Stokes have played the same amount of tests - Stokes has over a hundred more runs but three less wickets 

For a front line spinner his record isn't great at all


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

fundy said:



			look around county cricket and this is going to be an ongoing problem it seems, the cupboard is very very bare sadly, very few putting there hand up for a go
		
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Would look at Briggs and Dockerall as a start but can't see many that will bring the same as what Swann didn


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Can someone explain what exactly Moeen Ali has done wrong? And why he is suddenly not the best spinner in the country?
		
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Not necessarily whats he done wrong, but he is a part time spinner who England are trying to use as a frontline spinner. One decent home summer against 2 very poor sides gives him the role for a bit, but personally dont see him as a long term option as anything more than a  batter who bowls which is what he has always been for Worcs. Expect NZ and especially Australia to go after him this summer, if there is no help from the tracks he is going to be under a lot of pressure


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would look at Briggs and Dockerall as a start but can't see many that will bring the same as what Swann didn
		
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not a Briggs fan in the longer format, just doesnt turn it enough or have wicket taking variety (too much a limited overs bowler, like Tredwell and sadly the majority of our spin options nowadays). Dockerall could be an interesting one


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Can someone explain what exactly Moeen Ali has done wrong? And why he is suddenly not the best spinner in the country?
		
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He has never been the best spinner in the country 

He is a decent part time bowler - that's about it - same with Root


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2015)

Ali is a perfectly decent part time spinner. With regards to being a dedicated spinner, he doesn't hit the spot enough, he doesn't build pressure, he doesn't get a spinners loop, he doesn't get sufficient turn. A number of his wickets last year, IMO, came from batsmen not taking him seriously and getting themselves out. Now that is an opinion but I don't see a threat in his bowling. Fine in one day but in test cricket it is not enough.

Agree again with Fundy about a bare cupboard which is another reason why not playing Rashid in the WI was unfathomable. We could have found out if he was good enough and if he was he could have got confidence from playing and bowling. If not then the search would continue.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

fundy said:



			not a Briggs fan in the longer format, just doesnt turn it enough or have wicket taking variety (too much a limited overs bowler, like Tredwell and sadly the majority of our spin options nowadays). Dockerall could be an interesting one
		
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What about Kerrigan ? 

Borthwick seems like if he concentrated a bit more on bowling he could be useful ?


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

You'd seriously consider Borthwick over Moeen? A bloke who has never been that good with the ball, and now plays primarily as a batsman? Yet to take a Championship wicket this season from 3 games and is yet to bowl more than 10 overs in an innings. He is a part-timer, not Moeen.



fundy said:



			Not necessarily whats he done wrong, but he is a part time spinner who England are trying to use as a frontline spinner. One decent home summer against 2 very poor sides gives him the role for a bit, but personally dont see him as a long term option as anything more than a  batter who bowls which is what he has always been for Worcs. Expect NZ and especially Australia to go after him this summer, if there is no help from the tracks he is going to be under a lot of pressure
		
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How much have you watched of Moeen Ali? It really annoys me that people call him a part-time spinner. Moeen has not been a part-time spinner since 2009. He's bowled over 1000 balls every summer since 2010. He works incredibly hard on his bowling, and considers himself a front-line spin option, as do the guys in the England set-up. He bowled superbly last year, and was very unlucky not to pick up more wickets against Sri Lanka, and then was excellent against India, the country that produce the best players of spin-bowling in the world. One bad showing on a very flat track, when he's just recovered from injury and had no bowling should not mean he's a sub-standard bowler. Moeen is a frontline spinner, and is definitely good enough to be part of a 4-man bowling attack.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			How much have you watched of Moeen Ali? It really annoys me that people call him a part-time spinner. Moeen has not been a part-time spinner since 2009. He's bowled over 1000 balls every summer since 2010. He works incredibly hard on his bowling, and considers himself a front-line spin option, as do the guys in the England set-up. He bowled superbly last year, and was very unlucky not to pick up more wickets against Sri Lanka, and then was excellent against India, the country that produce the best players of spin-bowling in the world. One bad showing on a very flat track, when he's just recovered from injury and had no bowling should not mean he's a sub-standard bowler. Moeen is a frontline spinner, and is definitely good enough to be part of a 4-man bowling attack.
		
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26 wickets in 8 tests doesn't suggest front line spinner and it's clear when you watch him bowl he isn't a front line international test spinner - first clas record isn't much better - 173 wickets from 124 games at an average of 40 ! ( 11 thousand balls )

He bowls too many long hops , doesn't get enough spin , he doesn't frighten batsmen , he doesn't have that looping flight or the change of pace to get the batter thinking. He will tak occasional wickets late in the innings when the batsmen get tired and lazy.


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

I completely disagree. Last summer he was accurate, turned the ball, was beating the bat on both sides, has the doosra in his locker (a ball no-one else in England can bowl) and looked constantly threatening. He was poor against the West Indies, but was superb against India. He was one of the key men in winning us the series, and took vital wickets at key moments in matches. People seem to have forgotten that performance against India very quickly, a series where he bowled over 100 overs.


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ali is a perfectly decent part time spinner. With regards to being a dedicated spinner, he doesn't hit the spot enough, he doesn't build pressure, he doesn't get a spinners loop, he doesn't get sufficient turn. A number of his wickets last year, IMO, came from batsmen not taking him seriously and getting themselves out. Now that is an opinion but I don't see a threat in his bowling. Fine in one day but in test cricket it is not enough.

Agree again with Fundy about a bare cupboard which is another reason why not playing Rashid in the WI was unfathomable. We could have found out if he was good enough and if he was he could have got confidence from playing and bowling. If not then the search would continue.
		
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The Rashid decision was made purely based on the warm up game, where on all accounts he was struggling to hit the cut strip, over his record from county cricket that got him picked. Once they picked him for the tour he definitely shouldve been given the gig, and not to pick him on a really dry one at Barbados was utterly scandalous. Hes another I'll be very surprised is good enough, but theres really only one way to find out


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I completely disagree. Last summer he was accurate, turned the ball, was beating the bat on both sides, has the doosra in his locker (a ball no-one else in England can bowl) and looked constantly threatening. He was poor against the West Indies, but was superb against India. He was one of the key men in winning us the series, and took vital wickets at key moments in matches. People seem to have forgotten that performance against India very quickly, a series where he bowled over 100 overs.
		
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Then you must have seen a different Ali to me 

Whilst he did well - no denying that , he didn't bowl like an international main spinner - he caught a few by surprise and got a few wickets with one 5er in the tests.

If he starts as the main spinner then we won't have someone who will frighten bowlers.

His record doesn't stand out in any shape or form


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

I would be very surprised if he didn't start against New Zealand, so I guess we'll wait and see, but I would be shocked if he wasn't back looking like a world-class spinner again by the end of the NZ series.

Double-ton up for KP. Magnificent innings considering Surrey's collapse, has contributed well over half their runs. Would love to see him back smashing the Aussies around this summer! #BringBackKP


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I would be very surprised if he didn't start against New Zealand, so I guess we'll wait and see, but I would be shocked if he wasn't back looking like a world-class spinner again by the end of the NZ series.

Double-ton up for KP. Magnificent innings considering Surrey's collapse, has contributed well over half their runs. Would love to see him back smashing the Aussies around this summer! #BringBackKP
		
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Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali. Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali.* Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.*

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.
		
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Why is the suggestion of Dockerall amusing ?

He is a young lad who can get lots of variation in terms of flight , spin and pace on the ball - can certainly tie down an end 

Just needs to get a consistent injury free run going and more games under his belt


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is the suggestion of Dockerall amusing ?

He is a young lad who can get lots of variation in terms of flight , spin and pace on the ball - can certainly tie down an end 

Just needs to get a consistent injury free run going and more games under his belt
		
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I believe that he has only taken approx 30 first class wickets in the last two seasons, so not exactly a compelling case for his inclusion in the Test side.

IMO a lot more games and even more wickets are needed before the selectors should be looking in his direction.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I believe that he has only taken approx 30 first class wickets in the last two seasons, so not exactly a compelling case for his inclusion in the Test side.

IMO a lot more games and even more wickets are needed before the selectors should be looking in his direction.
		
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As been previously mentioned I remember when Tres was called up - he hadn't set county cricket alight for a number of years but was clear he had obvious talent

Dockrell has had some injury issues over the past 12 months and currently regained fitness and form with the 2XI - ability wise he IMO has the potential to be a top class spinner


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



*Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies*.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali. Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.
		
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It sure is but arent too many who have the ability to get 250 in an inns when no one else gets to 50. If nothing else the timing is the last thing Strauss et all wouldve wanted


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

I think we should wait and see what Moeen does against the Kiwis before thinking of chucking someone like Dockrell in.

KP going mental now, poor Ben Raine getting smashed around, his last over went for 16. Pietersen now 252*. Fair play to him. He's cancelled his IPL and Caribbean contracts and said he's going to try and force his way in, and boy is he making a statement. 170 in the pre-season match, and now this. Magnificent innings at such a good time.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I think we should wait and see what Moeen does against the Kiwis before thinking of chucking someone like Dockrell in.

KP going mental now, poor Ben Raine getting smashed around, his last over went for 16. Pietersen now 252*. Fair play to him. He's cancelled his IPL and Caribbean contracts and said he's going to try and force his way in, and boy is he making a statement. 170 in the pre-season match, and now this. Magnificent innings at such a good time.
		
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I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done


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## fundy (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done
		
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assume you mean be our best batsman of the last decade and talk out about the horrific way he was treated by so called management?


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done
		
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I will never accept that. I'm a huge KP fanboy, and I think England would be mad not to select him if he keeps up this form. He's one of the best we've ever had, and brings that fear factor to the England team. He'd be a great boost to our side in all forms of the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

fundy said:



			assume you mean be our best batsman of the last decade and talk out about the horrific way he was treated by so called management?
		
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Horrific ? Ahhh poor KP - constantly putting himself before the team - requesting that he be allowed to go play IPL instead of playing for England - falling out with every team he has played for and slating everyone in the England set up in his book - slating his own captain and current coach via text to the opposition whilst they were playing against them - scheming to get coaches fired - 

Being allowed to play for England after walking away from his country of birth has allowed him to become a multi millionaire. 

Whilst ability wise he has been one of the best we have had - attitude wise one of the worst.

KP has always been about what's best for KP not always what's best for his team. 

He will be remembered as a great batsmen who was part of some wonderful winning teams but lots of issues surrounding him - time to move on from him


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I will never accept that. I'm a huge KP fanboy, and I think England would be mad not to select him if he keeps up this form. He's one of the best we've ever had, and brings that fear factor to the England team. He'd be a great boost to our side in all forms of the game.
		
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Think you will have to accept it - his time has been and gone now.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Forgot to add that it's about time Jack Brooks was given a go


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2015)

326*. Come on KP. He will force his way in!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			326*. Come on KP. He will force his way in!
		
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Based on one innings against mediocre bowling and being dropped 5 times ! 

It's a great innings but come on its his first 100 since 2013 I believe


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Forgot to add that it's about time Jack Brooks was given a go
		
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At 31 (next month) he is hardly one for the future and has had only one good season (last year). With his style of bowling I would expect to see him take plenty in early season but has been only moderately successful so far this season.

Massive step up from County to Test cricket.

Going back to Dockrill I would suggest he needs  a fully fit season at least with plenty of wickets at the right price.


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## Piece (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Horrific ? Ahhh poor KP - constantly putting himself before the team - requesting that he be allowed to go play IPL instead of playing for England - falling out with every team he has played for and slating everyone in the England set up in his book - slating his own captain and current coach via text to the opposition whilst they were playing against them - scheming to get coaches fired - 

Being allowed to play for England after walking away from his country of birth has allowed him to become a multi millionaire. 

Whilst ability wise he has been one of the best we have had - attitude wise one of the worst.

KP has always been about what's best for KP not always what's best for his team. 

He will be remembered as a great batsmen who was part of some wonderful winning teams but lots of issues surrounding him - time to move on from him
		
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Couldn't agree less. Raking up old ground...

A lot of the issues are not of KP's making. The way the ECB is/was run shows that. Where's the dossier to explain why KP was sacked? Nowhere. Many of KP's claims in his book are backed by other players. The only thing I agree with is the SA text gate.

I note that a current England captain chose to play in the IPL rather than lead his country. I also note that another current England captain slated his dropping from the WC squad recently; rightly, because he is a poor captain. Gooch led rebel tour to SA, effectively endorsing apartheid but was welcomed back. 

It's purely that this England setup cannot handle players that do not conform to the cookie-cut mold. If your face don't fit, you're out. Warne and Gilchrist never got on. Sheringham and Cole never spoke. That didn't affect their respective teams?

Why should we move on when it is clear that KP has plenty of years left in him at test level, given a chance. Tendulkar, Kallis, Khan, Sanggakarra, etc. all played on (or are playing) to a high level late into their 30s. If you're in form you should be given a chance, and to exclude based on no real or cricketing reason is poor management and very, very blinkered.


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## Beezerk (May 11, 2015)

So what about Broad? Doesn't show up with either bat or ball nowadays but he'll retain his place no doubt.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 11, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			So what about Broad? Doesn't show up with either bat or ball nowadays but he'll retain his place no doubt.
		
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Very true.

Bowling has been short of more than just "a yard of pace" and his batting has gone from being very useful at number eight to a walking wicket.

But he is very much part of the establishment so I don't expect to see him dropped.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you will have to accept it - his time has been and gone now.
		
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You seem so certain. Wasn't it said by some in the England camp that it would be paramount that he came back to the longer format of the game rather than chase 20/20 lucre and that he'd then need to score runs by the bucketful. Mission accomplished on both fronts so far. If I was NZ or Australia and saw him coming back out, especially in current form and with a point to prove, I'd be a little worried. He's one of the few players we have at the moment still capable of taking the game away from the opposition

As far as spinners go, we are close to the bottom of a barrel in terms of anyone of reliable or match winning ability and have been since Swann finished. I think Ali has the chance to progress but is a long way from being the game changer regularly. I fear chucking an untried Dockrell in against NZ or Australia is too big an ask and he should have been playing this winter and not blooded against one of the best (or most improving in NZ's case)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2015)

Lyth and Wood called up to the England squad

The team in full: Alastair Cook, Adam Lyth, Ian Bell, Joe Root, Moeen Ali, Gary Ballance, Jos Buttler, Ben Stokes, Stuart Broad, James Anderson, Chris Jordan, Mark Wood.

Good to see Lyth and Wood included but disappointing to see no front line spinner


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## Lord Tyrion (May 14, 2015)

LP - Lords is rarely a spinning wicket so perhaps not too big a surprise. England also see Moeen as their frontline spinner, I think we filled a few pages on that subject a week or so ago. I think it is a shame that Plunkett is not in the squad but pleased to see Lyth and Wood. I hope they play Wood as playing both Stokes and Jordan together did not work in the WI. Wood offers something different.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			LP - Lords is rarely a spinning wicket so perhaps not too big a surprise. England also see Moeen as their frontline spinner, I think we filled a few pages on that subject a week or so ago. I think it is a shame that Plunkett is not in the squad but pleased to see Lyth and Wood. I hope they play Wood as playing both Stokes and Jordan together did not work in the WI. Wood offers something different.
		
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Hopefully will see Wood and not Jordan

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Ali
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Anderson
Wood

That would be my 11 

Can see Jordan playing instead of either Stokes or Wood


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 14, 2015)

Ben Stokes, 9 Tests, 25 wickets at 39

Chris Jordan, 8 Tests, 21 wickets at 35

Each is pretty ordinary but all the time I keep reading people telling me that Stokes "has something special."


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Ben Stokes, 9 Tests, 25 wickets at 39

Chris Jordan, 8 Tests, 21 wickets at 35

Each is pretty ordinary but all the time I keep reading people telling me that Stokes "has something special."
		
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Add in Stokes test ton in an ashes plus a few other crucial innings - believe he was just behind KP in the runs total at the last Ashes 

Deepens the batting line up which I would prefer when they are close as bowlers


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 14, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Add in Stokes test ton in an ashes plus a few other crucial innings - believe he was just behind KP in the runs total at the last Ashes 

Deepens the batting line up which I would prefer when they are close as bowlers
		
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One good innings (and it was a good one).

Other than that and he would not average 20 in Tests.

Sorry but whilst he may ultimately be worthy of a place in the Test side at the moment he is just another bits & pieces cricketer who could be useful in the One Dayers and T20.


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## Tongo (May 14, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			One good innings (and it was a good one).

Other than that and he would not average 20 in Tests.

Sorry but whilst he may ultimately be worthy of a place in the Test side at the moment he is just another bits & pieces cricketer who could be useful in the One Dayers and T20.
		
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Stokes is in danger of being the latest player who England will pick for one format after he is best suited for another. I can see him not performing in tests and getting dropped from every format. Such is the current way of things.


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## fundy (May 14, 2015)

None of Stokes, Jordan or Ali of the current side and Woakes on the fringes have proven they are good enough in with either bat or ball at test level as yet but all are being picked as supposed all rounders whereas they are only proven to being bits and pieces cricketers. Plenty of times in history sides have tried this selection approach yet I cant remember once when it has been successful, if youre not good enough, being not good enough at 2 disciplines doesnt help, youre still not good enough and having 3 of them in one side can only lead one way imho. Need to get back to picking the best 6 batters and best 4 bowlers, that said Im not holding my breath lol

But hey what do I know, Im outside cricket and clearly those in power know better


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## Tongo (May 14, 2015)

fundy said:



			None of Stokes, Jordan or Ali of the current side and Woakes on the fringes have proven they are good enough in with either bat or ball at test level as yet but all are being picked as supposed all rounders whereas they are only proven to being bits and pieces cricketers. Plenty of times in history sides have tried this selection approach yet I cant remember once when it has been successful, if youre not good enough, being not good enough at 2 disciplines doesnt help, youre still not good enough and having 3 of them in one side can only lead one way imho. Need to get back to picking the *best 6 batters and best 4 bowlers*, that said Im not holding my breath lol

But hey what do I know, Im *outside cricket* and clearly those in power know better
		
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Picking the 4 best bowlers is proving a problem as, Anderson aside, England's cupboard is fairly bare. 

Liking the outside cricket reference!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 14, 2015)

fundy said:



			None of Stokes, Jordan or Ali of the current side and Woakes on the fringes have proven they are good enough in with either bat or ball at test level as yet but all are being picked as supposed all rounders whereas they are only proven to being bits and pieces cricketers. Plenty of times in history sides have tried this selection approach yet I cant remember once when it has been successful, if youre not good enough, being not good enough at 2 disciplines doesnt help, youre still not good enough and having 3 of them in one side can only lead one way imho. Need to get back to picking the best 6 batters and best 4 bowlers, that said Im not holding my breath lol

But hey what do I know, Im outside cricket and clearly those in power know better
		
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My two sons will tell you I could have written the same post word for word as you have perfectly summarised my position.

True all-rounders like Sobers and Botham are a rarity but we keep picking the "bitsa" cricketers for our Test team, whereas we should, as you said, pick the best six batsmen, the best four bowlers and the best wicket-keeper.

It is, of course, quite possible that within that selection there will be those batsmen who can sometimes bowl and vice versa.However, that should not be amongst the criteria for selection.

Like you I am not expecting England to change the selection process in the near future. If, on the other hand, one of the other leading teams were to do so then expect us to follow suit as we always seem to be reactive rather than proactive. Bit like Cook's captaincy.


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## Piece (May 14, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			My two sons will tell you I could have written the same post word for word as you have perfectly summarised my position.

True all-rounders like Sobers and Botham are a rarity but we keep picking the "bitsa" cricketers for our Test team, whereas we should, as you said, pick the best six batsmen, the best four bowlers and the best wicket-keeper.

It is, of course, quite possible that within that selection there will be those batsmen who can sometimes bowl and vice versa.However, that should not be amongst the criteria for selection.

Like you I am not expecting England to change the selection process in the near future. If, on the other hand, one of the other leading teams were to do so then expect us to follow suit as we always seem to be reactive rather than proactive. Bit like Cook's captaincy.
		
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Nothing more to add to this and Fundy's post.

Disappointed no Hales in the team. Well, he was recommended by KP, so that's marked his card.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2015)

Piece said:



			Nothing more to add to this and Fundy's post.

Disappointed no Hales in the team. Well, he was recommended by KP, so that's marked his card.
		
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Where would you have put Hales ? instead of Lyth ?

As for players being tried as all rounders and being proven not good enough as mentioned earlier 

Flintoff himself was raw with both bat and ball when he starter 
Steven Smith
Watson


Just a couple in recent years

Stokes has had 8 tests - had a very good first series down under 2nd run scorer and 2nd wicket taker so i really cant see why he has been written off already without him being given a consistent run in the team.


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## Piece (May 14, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where would you have put Hales ? instead of Lyth ?

As for players being tried as all rounders and being proven not good enough as mentioned earlier 

Flintoff himself was raw with both bat and ball when he starter 
Steven Smith
Watson


Just a couple in recent years

Stokes has had 8 tests - had a very good first series down under 2nd run scorer and 2nd wicket taker so i really cant see why he has been written off already without him being given a consistent run in the team.
		
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Yes, instead of Lyth. A bit of X-factor at the top of the order. Watching Cook, Robson, Compton, Carberry at the top recently has sent me to sleep. Having said that, I hope Lyth does well but fear the usual death by Cook cricket.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2015)

Piece said:



			Yes, instead of Lyth. A bit of X-factor at the top of the order. Watching Cook, Robson, Compton, Carberry at the top recently has sent me to sleep. Having said that, I hope Lyth does well but fear the usual death by Cook cricket.
		
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Lyth has a better average , more 50's and tons than Hales at the longer game 

Was it death by cook cricket when he was pilling on the runs ? battering average well over 40 - 26 test tons - when he gets going he piles the runs on. 

Cant understand this death by Cook stuff.


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## Dan2501 (May 15, 2015)

Lyth > Hales atm. Hales isn't even opening for his County, so should definitely not come in ahead of Lyth, who was amazing last year, and should have been given a chance in the West Indies. I do feel for him though, as a few failures, and questions will be asked, like with Robson and Carberry before him. They should just pick someone, whether it's Lyth, Carberry, Robson or Compton and just stick with them for at least 3 series and see how they get on. We're far too quick to bin opening batsmen.

I don't agree with the Death by Cook cricket either in Tests. When Cook is scoring runs, he's not bad to watch, and you don't need to have pinch-hitting in Test cricket anyway. It's a 5 day game, what difference does it make if someone scores a ton off 130 balls, and 180 balls. A little bit of time, but if you're a top Test side, that shouldn't be a problem. The batting isn't our problem in Test cricket atm, we have a very good top order with Cook, Ballance, Bell and Root all settled and playing well. I'd have liked to see KP in there, but I understand it from a cricketing viewpoint that it's hard to get him in. Our big problem in Tests is the bowling. We're far too reliant on Jimmy, Broad goes missing far too often, Stokes isn't good enough with the ball, nor is Jordan, Plunkett hasn't delivered, Woakes lacks penetration, Finn has been ruined, and there's not many guys in County Cricket shouting for a spot. I just wish Tymal Mills could keep himself fit, he's exactly the sort of bowler we need!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2015)

Not convinced by either of them and have a feeling the opener position will become as a big an issue as the number 3 use to be. I really don't know who I'd have and I guess giving a chance to a new player gives them a chance to show their capabilities but I fear that with the new ball and the Aussie new ball attack in particular will find the England top order wanting.


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Lyth > Hales atm. Hales isn't even opening for his County, so should definitely not come in ahead of Lyth, who was amazing last year, and should have been given a chance in the West Indies. I do feel for him though, as a few failures, and questions will be asked, like with Robson and Carberry before him. They should just pick someone, whether it's Lyth, Carberry, Robson or Compton and just stick with them for at least 3 series and see how they get on. We're far too quick to bin opening batsmen.

I don't agree with the Death by Cook cricket either in Tests. When Cook is scoring runs, he's not bad to watch, and you don't need to have pinch-hitting in Test cricket anyway. It's a 5 day game, what difference does it make if someone scores a ton off 130 balls, and 180 balls. A little bit of time, but if you're a top Test side, that shouldn't be a problem. The batting isn't our problem in Test cricket atm, we have a very good top order with Cook, Ballance, Bell and Root all settled and playing well. I'd have liked to see KP in there, but I understand it from a cricketing viewpoint that it's hard to get him in. Our big problem in Tests is the bowling. We're far too reliant on Jimmy, Broad goes missing far too often, Stokes isn't good enough with the ball, nor is Jordan, Plunkett hasn't delivered, Woakes lacks penetration, Finn has been ruined, and there's not many guys in County Cricket shouting for a spot. I just wish Tymal Mills could keep himself fit, he's exactly the sort of bowler we need!
		
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For a side where the batting isnt a problem I assume you didnt watch the last test match in Barbados?


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## Dan2501 (May 15, 2015)

1 bad batting performance doesn't make a bad team. In the last 12 months Root is averaging 94, Ballance 69, Cook 42 and Bell 36 with 11 hundreds between them. The batting is not the problem. Anderson has been exceptional in the last year, taking 54 wickets at 19.98, and Broad is doing okay averaging 27, but Moeen is the only other bowler averaging less than 30. Jordan averaging 35, Plunkett 34, Stokes 48 and Woakes 43. That 3rd seamer spot is really hurting us, we need to find a solution soon and I think we need to pick a proper bowler, instead of a bits-and-pieces "all-rounder", the blokes we've picked in that role haven't worked. The old system still works, 6 batsmen, a keeper and 4 bowlers. I think it's unlikely that we're going to beat Australia, but I'd suggest the Test team isn't really the problem, it's the One Day team.


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			1 bad batting performance doesn't make a bad team. In the last 12 months Root is averaging 94, Ballance 69, Cook 42 and Bell 36 with 11 hundreds between them. The batting is not the problem. Anderson has been exceptional in the last year, taking 54 wickets at 19.98, and Broad is doing okay averaging 27, but Moeen is the only other bowler averaging less than 30. Jordan averaging 35, Plunkett 34, Stokes 48 and Woakes 43. That 3rd seamer spot is really hurting us, we need to find a solution soon and I think we need to pick a proper bowler, instead of a bits-and-pieces "all-rounder", the blokes we've picked in that role haven't worked. The old system still works, 6 batsmen, a keeper and 4 bowlers. I think it's unlikely that we're going to beat Australia, but I'd suggest the Test team isn't really the problem, it's the One Day team.
		
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Root is world class and our best player, Ballance looks the real deal, Bell and Cook not scored anywhere near heavy enough for their ability against India & SL at home and WI away in the last yr. Add in a revolving door for the other opener and an ability as a team to collapse in a session and Im not so sure the batting is "fine" especially against the 2 attacks its going to face this summer (Unless the typically money orientated ECB just prepare very flat pitches to try and ensure 5 days each time). Dont get me wrong, theres far bigger problems in the bowling where if you take out Andersen it looks worse than ordinary. As for ODI cricket, just lol, theyre ten years out of date as proved in the world cup.


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

I see the ECB are going to continue to lie and hope that everything just goes away. Be nice if they could just find someone with a backbone within their old boys network. Comments re Graves today just utterly embarassing if you listen to his radio interview and the paper article he collaborated on

Wont be seeing Hales in the test side now hes off to the IPL youd expect


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## Dan2501 (May 15, 2015)

Mike Brearley, arguably England's best cricket captain on Kevin Pietersen:




			â€˜Iâ€™ve only spoken properly to him once, and that was on an internal flight in India,â€™ Brearley told me. â€˜Kevin was polite, respectful, very knowledgeable about the game and I liked him very much.â€™

I waited for the â€˜butâ€™. It came, but not quite how I expected.

â€˜But friends of mine whose opinion I value tell me he can be a bit of a kn*b'.

Pause.

Then Brearley chuckled.

â€˜Frankly, though, if being a bit of a kn*b was the criteria for being banned from the team, Iâ€™d have had half an England side in the â€˜80s!â€™

â€˜How would you handle him?â€™ I asked.

â€˜Iâ€™d do what I did with Ian Botham â€“ tell him heâ€™s the greatest player in the world. Maverick, mercurial players need to be constantly encouraged, not treated like unmanageable outcasts.â€™
		
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## Liverpoolphil (May 15, 2015)

fundy said:



			I see the ECB are going to continue to lie and hope that everything just goes away. Be nice if they could just find someone with a backbone within their old boys network. Comments re Graves today just utterly embarassing if you listen to his radio interview and the paper article he collaborated on

Wont be seeing Hales in the test side now hes off to the IPL youd expect
		
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What had happened now ? 

Is this still about KP ?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 15, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Mike Brearley, arguably England's best cricket captain on Kevin Pietersen:
		
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It's done - time for acceptance and to move on , don't become as bad as Piers Morgan all over Twitter - embarrassing


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What had happened now ? 

Is this still about KP ?
		
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no its about senior management within the body that manages our national sport openly lieing and thinking they can get away with it. May sit ok with you but it doesnt with me


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## Liverpoolphil (May 15, 2015)

fundy said:



			no its about senior management within the body that manages our national sport openly lieing and thinking they can get away with it. May sit ok with you but it doesnt with me
		
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What have they lied about ? 

I normally let the senior management get on with it and concentrate on the games

Seem to have got more things right than wrong over the last decade in the test arena especially - T20 also - ODi the big downfall right now


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2015)

Still say we'll get found out by NZ and Australia and the ECB will face some tricky questions on their selection processes. It is still an old boys and school tie brigade and until someone is allowed to come in with carte blanche and make wholesale changes to the way the game is run we'll still going to have these issues


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What have they lied about ? 

I normally let the senior management get on with it and concentrate on the games
		
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Graves gave a radio interview and a paper interview to the Telegraph a while back, hes claimed today to not have said several things that he clearly did (yes this is about KP, that shouldnt be relevant, it doesnt allow those who supposedly run English cricket to behave like this)


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still say we'll get found out by NZ and Australia and the ECB will face some tricky questions on their selection processes. It is still an old boys and school tie brigade and until someone is allowed to come in with carte blanche and make wholesale changes to the way the game is run we'll still going to have these issues
		
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whos gonna ask the hard questions? all the journalists are in bed with the ECB "inside cricket" whilst the fans are being shafted from pillar to post


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## ColchesterFC (May 15, 2015)

I thought that the most interesting quote from Colin Graves was that it would be the "coaches that pick the team". Considering they don't currently have a coach and they have just banned a player it would seem that the coach will get to pick the team as long as he only picks the players that the management approve of. Not sure how many top coaches would accept the job knowing that they don't have control of who they pick but that it will be their neck on the line if things don't go well.


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## fundy (May 15, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought that the most interesting quote from Colin Graves was that it would be the "coaches that pick the team". Considering they don't currently have a coach and they have just banned a player it would seem that the coach will get to pick the team as long as he only picks the players that the management approve of. Not sure how many top coaches would accept the job knowing that they don't have control of who they pick but that it will be their neck on the line if things don't go well.
		
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Its also already alienated the likes of Vaughan from the management job (he refused to be involved without full control) and looks like going the same way with Gillespie for the coaches job


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2015)

fundy said:



			whos gonna ask the hard questions? all the journalists are in bed with the ECB "inside cricket" whilst the fans are being shafted from pillar to post
		
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Not sure all the journos are in bed with the ECB though I concede many seem to have a cosy relationship and definitely agree it's the fans who'll get the rough end, watch three day capitulations. Mind you fans getting a raw deal isn't unique to cricket is it.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 15, 2015)

fundy said:



			Graves gave a radio interview and a paper interview to the Telegraph a while back, hes claimed today to not have said several things that he clearly did (yes this is about KP, that shouldnt be relevant, it doesnt allow those who supposedly run English cricket to behave like this)
		
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Graves has already shown himself to be an utter clown with his mouth 

Cant see him lasting long - he is doing damage all on his own - slating the windies then the KP stuff - all down to him.

Hopefully the players will just blot him out


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## ColchesterFC (May 15, 2015)

I apologise for the link being from the Daily Mail but it looks as though Broad is the latest one in trouble........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cr...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Graves has already shown himself to be an utter clown with his mouth 

Cant see him lasting long - he is doing damage all on his own - slating the windies then the KP stuff - all down to him.

Hopefully the players will just blot him out
		
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But the ECB appointed him in the first place and not the first time they've got it wrong. While its all jobs for the boys nothing will really change. The whole circus needs shaking up from top to bottom but that's never going to happen. Same with the FA


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## Piece (May 16, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lyth has a better average , more 50's and tons than Hales at the longer game 

Was it death by cook cricket when he was pilling on the runs ? battering average well over 40 - 26 test tons - when he gets going he piles the runs on. 

Cant understand this death by Cook stuff.
		
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As a captain he is poor. He is reactive rather than proactive. Negative tactics for the most part and doesn't use his bowlers well. No spark, no initiative. That, to me, is death by Cook stuff.

He hasn't got going for a while with bat, apart from the recent ton in the Windies. Currently, he's a bit easy to get out. Pitch it up, outside off, get him driving and bingo...caught behind. When he was piling on the runs he was moving his feet. Hope he gets back to where he was a few years back.


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## Piece (May 16, 2015)

fundy said:



			Wont be seeing Hales in the test side now hes off to the IPL youd expect
		
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Great way for Hales to leave these shores! 6 sixes in a row.


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## Tongo (May 16, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still say we'll get found out by NZ and Australia and the ECB will face some tricky questions on their selection processes. *It is still an old boys and school tie brigade and until someone is allowed to come in with carte blanche and make wholesale changes to the way the game is run we'll still going to have these issues*

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You can take the ECB out of the MCC etc, etc   :blah:


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## Tongo (May 16, 2015)

Piece said:



*As a captain he is poor. He is reactive rather than proactive. Negative tactics for the most part and doesn't use his bowlers well. No spark, no initiative. That, to me, is death by Cook stuff.*

He hasn't got going for a while with bat, apart from the recent ton in the Windies. Currently, he's a bit easy to get out. Pitch it up, outside off, get him driving and bingo...caught behind. When he was piling on the runs he was moving his feet. Hope he gets back to where he was a few years back.
		
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It'll be interesting to see if McCullum is as innovative with his tactics as he was in the World Cup. Cos it'll be in stark contrast to Cook!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2015)

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the Broad story. He missed a sponsors event for the ECB as he was hung over following a night out. He is claiming a migraine but it looks iffy and he has apologised. If Andrew Strauss wants to set down a marker for his regime he should suspend him for the first Test. Broad is not 18 any more and should know better particularly after the week the ECB have had. Disappointing.


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## fundy (May 18, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm surprised no one has picked up on the Broad story. He missed a sponsors event for the ECB as he was hung over following a night out. He is claiming a migraine but it looks iffy and he has apologised. If Andrew Strauss wants to set down a marker for his regime he should suspend him for the first Test. Broad is not 18 any more and should know better particularly after the week the ECB have had. Disappointing.
		
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inside or outside, Broad very very clearly on the inside

Sounds like the ICC are discussing turning back some of the ODI fielding rules for the better


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## Liverpoolphil (May 18, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm surprised no one has picked up on the Broad story. He missed a sponsors event for the ECB as he was hung over following a night out. He is claiming a migraine but it looks iffy and he has apologised. If Andrew Strauss wants to set down a marker for his regime he should suspend him for the first Test. Broad is not 18 any more and should know better particularly after the week the ECB have had. Disappointing.
		
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Thought it was brought up a page or so back 

I'm sure he would have been spoken too and warned and not sure the need to suspend him


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought it was brought up a page or so back 

I'm sure he would have been spoken too and warned and not sure the need to suspend him
		
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I posted a link to the original story a couple of days ago. Since then Flintoff has been on Twitter and denied any involvement in the night out and said he no longer drinks. I'm not Broad' s biggest fan but it does call into question how accurate the rest of the story is.

Broad's migraine story might be true as I often have a bad headache if I've been out drinking until 7am.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2015)

Sorry, I did not pick up on it. No need to re-hash if already covered.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 18, 2015)

While clearly not on a KP scale there has to be transparency and the ECB need to be seen to be taking action with Broad. It sounds iffy at best (of course it could be true but no smoke and all that) and if they want to move on from the KP shadow they need to be taking a firm and consistent line with any misbehaviour on and off the field


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## fundy (May 19, 2015)

so Hales went all the way to the IPL to carry the drinks lol

seems Brendon McCullum left earlier than expected to get to England before the test series starts next week too


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

fundy said:



			so Hales went all the way to the IPL to carry the drinks lol

seems Brendon McCullum left earlier than expected to get to England before the test series starts next week too
		
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That doesn't bode well for England. McCullum is a good player and getting better


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

England have spoken to Gillespe about becoming the coach 

Also Cook has said he had nothing to do with the KP decision


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## Papas1982 (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			England have spoken to Gillespe about becoming the coach 

Also Cook has said he had nothing to do with the KP decision
		
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personally don't want an Aussie in charge for the ashes but can see it happening. 

Peas for Cook. He said he didn't give an ultimatum. In fact he said he can deny that. If he didn't speak to his pals abut the decision is be very surprised. He's captain after all.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			personally don't want an Aussie in charge for the ashes but can see it happening. 

Peas for Cook. He said he didn't give an ultimatum. In fact he said he can deny that. If he didn't speak to his pals abut the decision is be very surprised. He's captain after all.
		
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I also don't want to see an Aussie in charge - would prefer to see Kirsten or even Donald 

Cook said he left the managing decisions to the management 

And he is spot on - it's time to move on now and focus on the game ahead


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## Papas1982 (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I also don't want to see an Aussie in charge - would prefer to see Kirsten or even Donald 

Cook said he left the managing decisions to the management 

And he is spot on - it's time to move on now and focus on the game ahead
		
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I agree time to move on. Don't believe for a second he wasn't spoken to though. Cricket has and will remain a old boys club and he's firmly part of that. 

He he probaby wouldn't of needed to to make demands. But he did t say he had no input. In fact avoid answering as such.


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## fundy (May 20, 2015)

Lying through his teeth, calling his boss Straussy, yep no old boys network going on lol.

youre right, time to focus on the cricket, come on you black caps


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

fundy said:



			Lying through his teeth, calling his boss Straussy, yep no old boys network going on lol.

youre right, time to focus on the cricket, *come on you black caps *

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Really Steve ? 

I guess the complaints about the old boys network were loud and clear when the team were winning ashes and getting to number 1 in the world


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree time to move on. Don't believe for a second he wasn't spoken to though. Cricket has and will remain a old boys club and he's firmly part of that. 

He he probaby wouldn't of needed to to make demands. But he did t say he had no input. In fact avoid answering as such.
		
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I believe he wanted to focus on the upcoming test and the current squad instead of going over and over and over about a person who will take no part in it. 

All this old boy network stuff is either nonsense and people only bring it up when things don't go well or they were just as vocal when England were winning regualry


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## fundy (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really Steve ? 

I guess the complaints about the old boys network were loud and clear when the team were winning ashes and getting to number 1 in the world
		
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been complaining about it for about 15 years if im honest, and its got far far worse the last few years than its ever been

as for who i cheer for, bets come before everything and Im not backing England at the prices lol (albeit if Lords is as green come match time as the pictures shown it could be a shootout (and then ill be cheering any result bar the draw)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

fundy said:



			been complaining about it for about 15 years if im honest, and its got far far worse the last few years than its ever been

as for who i cheer for, bets come before everything and Im not backing England at the prices lol (albeit if Lords is as green come match time as the pictures shown it could be a shootout (and then ill be cheering any result bar the draw)
		
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So not being an England cricket fan then the old boys network makes no difference then 

I don't really care what goes on behind the scenes - really can't see the issue right now nor in the last 10 years


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## fundy (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So not being an England cricket fan then the old boys network makes no difference then 

*I don't really care what goes on behind the scenes - really can't see the issue right now nor in the last 10 years*

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You never can once youve made your mind up though! I have a lot of friends involved in the top levels of the sport and some of what I hear makes the blood boil. 

I played cricket at all but the highest levels as a youngster, was more passionate about English cricket than pretty much anyone you could meet 20 years ago, that has reduced year upon year as the sport and especially the England team has been regularly mismanaged, individuals been horrifically treated and management covered up the majority of it.

If you dont care that that goes on behind the scenes of a national sport team thats your preference, but it really gets my goat, and yes to the point where I was cheering WI in Barbados and will be cheering NZ this series. I would rather certain people fail rather than succeed and if that means a couple of series losses to rid them from the set up then so be it


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

So which individuals have been "horrifically" treated ?


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## fundy (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So which individuals have been "horrifically" treated ?
		
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we really need to go there again?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

fundy said:



			we really need to go there again?
		
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Are we really talking about KP again ?! "Horrifically" treated ?! Do you really just mean the media whore cricketer who has made millions out of the sport 

Surely to say something so strong there must be more than just him ?!


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## fundy (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we really talking about KP again ?! "Horrifically" treated ?! 

Surely to say something so strong there must be more than just him ?!
		
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yep theres been plenty but his is by far the worst and highest profile, but then you will never see it that way so pointless discussing further


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

fundy said:



			yep theres been plenty but his is by far the worst and highest profile, but then you will never see it that way so pointless discussing further
		
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The same KP I guess who has been "horrifically" treated at every county he has fallen out with - Hants , Notts and in SA

The same horrifically treated KP who England gave a chance to and made himself a millionaire - the same horrifically treated KP who wanted to miss tests so that he could play IPL for money - who also wanted to retired from ODI and through his toys out when he was told he wouldn't be able to play T20 then - the same KP who demanded that the coach was fired and conspired to ensure it happened - the same KP who was caught red handed insulting his own captain to the opposition he was playing at the time - the same KP who then wrote a book slating everyone and then wanting to play again ?!

KP has had a hand in all his own issues - my brothers father in law is a patron at Somerset CCC and at one stage he was offered to them for T20 and the money he asked was astronomical as well as his demands - was politely turned down - every single issue around the England team has involved him over the last ten years - there is always one common theme throughout - poor old multi million KP - horrifically treated ?!? Sorry but unless there is something that no one knows but KP has most certainly done well from representing England despite not being English and upsetting every team he has played for - common dominator - KP - unless they all treated him horrifically ?! 

To support the opposition because of KP ?! Sorry but that's something you would expect of him


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## Papas1982 (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe he wanted to focus on the upcoming test and the current squad instead of going over and over and over about a person who will take no part in it. 

All this old boy network stuff is either nonsense and people only bring it up when things don't go well or they were just as vocal when England were winning regualry
		
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Sorry, but that's not it at all. It's been a closed shop long before and after our rise and fall. Faces have to fit for England. I'm not going over kp. He's past now. But to suggest that Cook Had no contact about it whatsoever doesn't wash with me.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Sorry, but that's not it at all. It's been a closed shop long before and after our rise and fall. Faces have to fit for England. I'm not going over kp. He's past now. But to suggest that Cook Had no contact about it whatsoever doesn't wash with me.
		
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Faces have to fit ? In the team or the coach or the management ?


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## Papas1982 (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Faces have to fit ? In the team or the coach or the management ?
		
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To get a place in the team, certain connections have in the past been advantageous......

imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			To get a place in the team, certain connections have in the past been advantageous......

imo.
		
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Which players in particular were picked based on face fitting ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2015)

I would say that there have been definite cliques within the England dressing room especially over the last 5 years.

Phil what is your opinion on Broad and Prior being involved with the KPGenius Twitter account that was used to mock Pietersen while he was still a member of the test team?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would say that there have been definite cliques within the England dressing room especially over the last 5 years.

Phil what is your opinion on Broad and Prior being involved with the KPGenius Twitter account that was used to mock Pietersen while he was still a member of the test team?
		
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Wasn't Swann who was "reported" to be involved yet no evidence was found to assign any responsibility to the Twitter account bar the person who set it up - Bailey

*
One of Pietersen's celebrity friends, Piers Morgan, said on BBC radio the account was written by a member of the public, Richard Bailey, who he also alleged is friends with Broad and other England players.

Bailey admitted his involvement and includes England internationals Tim Bresnan and Broad and promising duo Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler as his followers on the site.

Bailey, who says he is from Nottingham and tweets under the name @Bailsthebadger, said on Twitter: "Yes the parody was me. It was for humour purposes only and as soon as I realised it was upsetting people i took it down.

"No professional cricketers were involved in it. I apologise if I upset anyone. It's not the business I'm in.

"I would also like to apologise to anyone I know involved with England Cricket who I may have put in an awkward or embarrassing position.

"At the end of the day I'm an England Cricket fan. When I saw it was potentially causing harm & upsetting folk, I shut it down."
*


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wasn't Swann who was "reported" to be involved yet no evidence was found to assign any responsibility to the Twitter account bar the person who set it up - Bailey
		
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I'd forgotten that Swann was involved. Must have been Swann instead of Prior. I knew that two of them admitted that they had the password to the account and so were able to post from it but both denied ever posting anything. Personally I find that hard to believe. What other purpose would they have for knowing the password.

Regardless of that, would you say that openly ridiculing a team mate is as bad as sending a private text message to and opposition player insulting your captain?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'd forgotten that Swann was involved. Must have been Swann instead of Prior. I knew that two of them admitted that they had the password to the account and so were able to post from it but both denied ever posting anything. Personally I find that hard to believe. What other purpose would they have for knowing the password.

Regardless of that, would you say that openly ridiculing a team mate is as bad as sending a private text message to and opposition player insulting your captain?
		
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Did they admit to having the password ? 

Didn't know that - thought that no one had been confirmed from the England team as being involved 

If they have not sent or posted one tweet then don't see an issue 

If they have confirmed that they posted tweets then they should have been punished


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*One of Pietersen's celebrity friends, Piers Morgan, said on BBC radio the account was written by a member of the public, Richard Bailey, who he also alleged is friends with Broad and other England players.

Bailey admitted his involvement and includes England internationals Tim Bresnan and Broad and promising duo Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler as his followers on the site.

Bailey, who says he is from Nottingham and tweets under the name @Bailsthebadger, said on Twitter: "Yes the parody was me. It was for humour purposes only and as soon as I realised it was upsetting people i took it down.

"No professional cricketers were involved in it. I apologise if I upset anyone. It's not the business I'm in.

"I would also like to apologise to anyone I know involved with England Cricket who I may have put in an awkward or embarrassing position.

"At the end of the day I'm an England Cricket fan. When I saw it was potentially causing harm & upsetting folk, I shut it down."
*

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Not really a surprise that he would deny any involvement from any England players though is it? He was hardly going to say "Yeah ok, they were sending out tweets as well as me".

Piers Morgan also directly accused Broad and Swann (thought it was Prior but not you've said Swann it might have been him) of being involved with the account and of tweeting from it and said they should sue him if it wasn't true. So far he hasn't been sued.


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2015)

It was Alec Stewart that said that Bailey had told him that 3 England players were involved with the account and that Stewart passed this info onto Andy Flower and Hugh Morris.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/alec-stewart-three-kevin-pietersens-4404334


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not really a surprise that he would deny any involvement from any England players though is it? He was hardly going to say "Yeah ok, they were sending out tweets as well as me".

Piers Morgan also directly accused Broad and Swann (thought it was Prior but not you've said Swann it might have been him) of being involved with the account and of tweeting from it and said they should sue him if it wasn't true. So far he hasn't been sued.
		
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So no England player has admitted being involved 

And Piers Morgan ?! Really - he is an embarrassment and I have no doubt Broad and co did what most do in regards Morgan - ignore him. That man is a disgrace


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			It was Alec Stewart that said that Bailey had told him that 3 England players were involved with the account and that Stewart passed this info onto Andy Flower and Hugh Morris.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/alec-stewart-three-kevin-pietersens-4404334

Click to expand...

So no one has admitted anything and I'm guessing the evidence wasn't compelling enough to take it further - a person admitted to doing it ? He came out publically and admitted it - no one challenged him


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2015)

Of course Cook had something to do with it. He'd have been asked the question. Lying through his teeth and naive to think otherwise


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## Piece (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So which individuals have been "horrifically" treated ?
		
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Recently, Compton was poorly treated. Robson too. Carberry. All openers. Weren't seen to be the 'right' opening partner for Cook.

Graham Onions - was worthy of a place but somehow lost out to other trundlers when he was one of the top wicket takers. 

Darren Pattinson (thankfully )


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So no England player has admitted being involved 

And Piers Morgan ?! Really - he is an embarrassment and I have no doubt Broad and co did what most do in regards Morgan - ignore him. That man is a disgrace
		
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And couldn't possibly right even though your dislike is clear to see. No smoke and all that. No doubt others were doing it but the perfect excuse to hang KP out to dry


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Piece said:



			Recently, Compton was poorly treated. Robson too. Carberry. All openers. Weren't seen to be the 'right' opening partner for Cook.

Graham Onions - was worthy of a place but somehow lost out to other trundlers when he was one of the top wicket takers. 

Darren Pattinson (thankfully )
		
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"Horrifically" treated though ? 

Carberry don't believe is ever good enough - same with Robson and agree that Compton should have played more 

Onions was play for England until suffered with injuries 

Yes England just like all the other test teams have not picked the right players and picked the wrong ones and they will all continue to do so but " horrifically" treated though ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 20, 2015)

Simple question.

What has Cook ever done to suggest he should be captain?

Not talking about his playing ability. Just that there was nothing in his past record to suggest he had the necessary leadership qualities or tactical nous.

A strange choice from the outset I thought and nothing we have seen since suggests otherwise. It is always good for a captain to consult on the field but it appears that England have three or four other players who think they know better and Cook seems incapable of imposing his will upon them and, therefore, the rest of the team.


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Simple question.

What has Cook ever done to suggest he should be captain?
		
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Well Giles Clarke, ECB Chairman at the time, said that Alastair Cook_ "and his family are very much the sort of people we want the England captain and his family to be"._

Which pretty much sums up the old boys network to a tee.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Simple question.

What has Cook ever done to suggest he should be captain?

Not talking about his playing ability. Just that there was nothing in his past record to suggest he had the necessary leadership qualities or tactical nous.

A strange choice from the outset I thought and nothing we have seen since suggests otherwise. It is always good for a captain to consult on the field but it appears that England have three or four other players who think they know better and Cook seems incapable of imposing his will upon them and, therefore, the rest of the team.
		
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This was the first test squad announced after Strauss retired - bearing in mind that Cook had already successfully filled in for Strauss in a Test Series in Bangladesh


    Alastair Cook 
    Stuart Broad 
    James Anderson
    Jonny Bairstow 
    Ian Bell
    Tim Bresnan
    Nick Compton
    Steven Finn
    Graham Onions
    Eoin Morgan
    Monty Panesar
    Samit Patel
    Kevin Pietersen
    Matt Prior
    Joe Root
    Graeme Swann
    Jonathan Trott

So who else should have been skipper ?

I believe he then skippered the Team to their first test Series victory on Indian Soil for two decades

Draw against New Zealand away 

Then we beat New Zealand at home

We won the Ashes at home

defeat to the Aussies away - and then lost a two test series to Sri Lanka 

Followed up by beating India and drawing with West Indies

So he overall record as captain is not bad at all - in fact compared to a lot of captains over the past 3 decades its pretty good 

Its one bad test series away from home in Australia and he certainly isnt the first England captain that happened too. 

So looking at the facts - it seems that he was a good choice of captain and i certainly cant remember many other stand out choices around at the time ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 21, 2015)

Results have to be put in context.

India have not been a force in Test cricket since the advent of the IPL and the victorious series against Australia was achieved against a team in transition.

His performance as captain against West Indies was poor, reactive rather than pro-active.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Results have to be put in context.

India have not been a force in Test cricket since the advent of the IPL and the victorious series against Australia was achieved against a team in transition.

His performance as captain against West Indies was poor, reactive rather than pro-active.
		
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Where India not 2nd in the test rankings when we won away ?

So do we dismiss all the two previous ashes wins as well

You can't dismiss the results - they are what matters. 

So who should have been captain instead of Cook when he was given the job ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can't dismiss the results - they are what matters. 

So who should have been captain instead of Cook when he was given the job ?
		
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Absolutely agree Phil, results are all that matter but even I could've captained that team to a similar set of results. With Cook, Trott and Pietersen all scoring stacks of runs and Broad, Swann and Anderson taking wickets he didn't need to be a great captain. 

I agree with MM that he is too reactive and I also think he is too negative. Too many times have had the opposition on the back foot and haven't finished them off.

He's definitely one of England's best batsman when in form but he isn't a great captain.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely agree Phil, results are all that matter but even I could've captained that team to a similar set of results. With Cook, Trott and Pietersen all scoring stacks of runs and Broad, Swann and Anderson taking wickets he didn't need to be a great captain. 

I agree with MM that he is too reactive and I also think he is too negative. Too many times have had the opposition on the back foot and haven't finished them off.

He's definitely one of England's best batsman when in form but he isn't a great captain.
		
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So who should have been captain ?

Cook can never win then can he - win and it's down to the oppo being poor or his players playing well

Lose and it's poor captaincy 

Who are the other candidates to be England captain right now


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So who should have been captain ?

Cook can never win then can he - win and it's down to the oppo being poor or his players playing well

Lose and it's poor captaincy 

Who are the other candidates to be England captain right now
		
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At that time it wouldn't have mattered who they made captain because the team was playing so well. As long as that person had the ability to toss a coin we would've won more than we lost.

It's very rare that a captain's decisions are directly responsible for a win or loss but I can think of several times when Cook being negative has led to a draw when in my opinion he should've pushed harder for a win.

Can you give one example of a good piece of captaincy from Cook that has changed a match in England's favour? And I don't mean a bowling change that has led to a wicket as anyone could point to that in any match you look at.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			At that time it wouldn't have mattered who they made captain because the team was playing so well. As long as that person had the ability to toss a coin we would've won more than we lost.

It's very rare that a captain's decisions are directly responsible for a win or loss but I can think of several times when Cook being negative has led to a draw when in my opinion he should've pushed harder for a win.

Can you give one example of a good piece of captaincy from Cook that has changed a match in England's favour? And I don't mean a bowling change that has led to a wicket as anyone could point to that in any match you look at.
		
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No I can't point to a good piece of captaincy bar what he does on the field in rotate his bowlers - making the changes when needed , field placements conversations with his bowlers , selections , decisions when at the toss - all aspects of captaincy that will help a team win the game 

But it's clear that Cook can win the next ten series in a row and still will be a poor captain etc - so it doesn't matter what he does - the trench has been dug - we could win the next two test series and he would get no praise - where as previous captains used to get bucket loads 

Or he can lose the next two series due to no fault of his own and be crucified from pillar to post - he hasn't got a prayer right despite his record being no worse than previous captains 

Cook has no chance and don't think many will ever be happy until he is gone - irrelevant of the results 

So who should be captain right now


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Strauss has handed #666 to Adam Lyth and #667 to Mark Wood. Wonder who'll get dropped to get Wood in, likely Jordan I'd imagine. Good to see a young bowler getting given a go. I've not seen a lot of him, and he is yet to get to 100 FC wickets, but is getting them at a decent number. Looks like we'll line up:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Moeen
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Anderson
Wood


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2015)

Good to see Wood is playing. New blood in the bowling dept. 

Tricky to answer to LP. The obvious one is Root but do we want to put him under pressure when he is doing so well? There is a bit of a dearth of talent, Bell is not a captain as he would be the other obvious one. James Taylor would be a good one but he needs to play in the team before he can become captain. I don't see any of the current bowlers as candidates. I would change Cook as he is an awful captain in my eyes and I would go for Root. Sorry Joe, although I am sure he would enjoy the increase in wages that comes with the job.


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

New Zealand win the toss and will bowl first!


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Could be an interesting morning this morning with NZ seamers steaming in. The Lords pitch should have a bit in it, in the last FC game there Middlesex and Durham made 89 and 71 respectively!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good to see Wood is playing. New blood in the bowling dept. 

Tricky to answer to LP. The obvious one is Root but do we want to put him under pressure when he is doing so well? There is a bit of a dearth of talent, Bell is not a captain as he would be the other obvious one. James Taylor would be a good one but he needs to play in the team before he can become captain. I don't see any of the current bowlers as candidates. I would change Cook as he is an awful captain in my eyes and I would go for Root. Sorry Joe, although I am sure he would enjoy the increase in wages that comes with the job.
		
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And Root's captaincy in any capacity so far ?!

How can someone be such an awful captain yet continue to win tests and series ? 

Sorry but it can't happen - if Cook was losing series after series then yes possibly - but he isn't


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2015)

He has not captained anyone but as he has been made the vice captain they clearly see something in him. The next logical step from VC is Captain. If we remove Cook then Root clearly comes next otherwise why give him that position. I don't say he will be a roaring success because none of us know but I think it is worth the risk as actually the risk is pretty small.

Sometimes teams can win despite a captain not because of one. Cook's captaincy lacks innovation and is predictable, dull and overly safe. There are other captains out there who squeeze everything out of their players and make the team a greater sum than the parts. Cook does not come into that category. Let him get on with batting and leave the decisions to someone with a more forward thinking approach.


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Lyth out cheaply. Right, get rid. He's rubbish. #BringBackKP


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

This is going well. 30/4 after an hour.


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			This is going well. 30/4 after an hour.
		
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Oh dear. 

But its alright! Cos England won in India last time out and beat Australia in 2013 and were world number 1 in all 3 formats blah, blah, blah. :blah:


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Joe Root's different class at the minute. Looks in absolute control, and stroking the ball around beautifully.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Joe Root's different class at the minute. Looks in absolute control, and stroking the ball around beautifully.
		
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thats bound to be the kiss of death then!


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

Are England hiding Moeen Ali? Surely he should be at 6 rather than Stokes.


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2015)

Not a great morning so far but will reserve judgement until after NZ have batted as well.

Not a fan of Stokes' tattoos showing on his arms. Looks awful. And I'm not against tattoos per we as Mrs Colch has several. Just don't think it looks very good.


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

What are Root and Stokes doing?! 44 runs off of 6.4 overs?! Cook'll be doing his nut at such a cavalier modus operandi!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2015)

Actually good captaincy from Cook to move Stokes up the list. No point playing normally in these circumstances and gettting out. A counter attack was needed and that is where Stokes comes into it. Credit where it is due. It is something Prior used to do brilliantly for England.


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not a great morning so far but will reserve judgement until after NZ have batted as well.

Not a fan of Stokes' tattoos showing on his arms. Looks awful. And I'm not against tattoos per we as Mrs Colch has several. Just don't think it looks very good.
		
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Freddie and KP used to have visible tattoo's when playing for England. They look fine.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

Tongo said:



			What are Root and Stokes doing?! 44 runs off of 6.4 overs?! Cook'll be doing his nut at such a cavalier modus operandi!
		
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Getting boring now


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Actually good captaincy from Cook to move Stokes up the list. No point playing normally in these circumstances and gettting out. A counter attack was needed and that is where Stokes comes into it. Credit where it is due. It is something Prior used to do brilliantly for England.
		
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According to the beeb website:

"So apparently that batting change wasn't a deliberate move by England - Moeen Ali was batting in the nets and couldn't get his kit on in time to make it out there. Shambles doesn't do it justice - if this series is Paul Farbrace's audition for the permanent job of England coach, that's the equivalent of fluffing your first line and then tripping over part of the set."

Just about sums England up.


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting boring now
		
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Fortunately this partnership isn't.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2015)

Tongo - haha. There I was giving credit for a McCullum style aggressive move and apparently it was just an accident. Ah well, maybe they will learn from this.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2015)

Tongo said:



			According to the beeb website:

"So apparently that batting change wasn't a deliberate move by England - Moeen Ali was batting in the nets and couldn't get his kit on in time to make it out there. Shambles doesn't do it justice - if this series is *Paul Farbrace's* audition for the permanent job of England coach, that's the equivalent of fluffing your first line and then tripping over part of the set."

Just about sums England up.
		
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is n't he the guy from "Right Said Fred"?


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Stokes scoring at less than a run a ball now. BORING! Get on with the game lads.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

So does that help put to bed the reason why Stokes plays - superb counter attack from Stokes


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does that help put to bed the reason why Stokes plays - superb counter attack from Stokes
		
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Whilst I very much support Stokes and think everyone deserves time to bed in, one swallow does not a summer make.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Whilst I very much support Stokes and think everyone deserves time to bed in, one swallow does not a summer make.
		
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I thought his first century down under was the one swallow ?


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## Tongo (May 21, 2015)

Great stuff from Stokes and Root. England needed a decent partnership but also players playing with intent rather than the catenaccio stuff of late.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I thought his first century down under was the one swallow ?
		
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These were his first runs scored on British soil, up to now I believe he scored a grand total of zero...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			These were his first runs scored on British soil, up to now I believe he scored a grand total of zero...
		
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I like that - good deflection :thup:


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Great innings and will keep Stokes going for a while, but needs more runs if he's going to keep a place long-term. Been rubbish since that hundred in Australia for England.

Root unlucky to miss out too. Should both have gone on and got big tons really, but both excellent innings. Need Buttler and Moeen to dig in and get a few now. Such a ridiculously long batting line-up!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2015)

On a bowler friendly wicket this is a good start from England - impressive batting


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## Dan2501 (May 21, 2015)

Good. I wouldn't say impressive. The Root-Stokes partnership promised a lot, but both should have gone on and got big hundreds. The start was also atrocious batting against some good, but not exceptional bowling. Root, Stokes and Buttler have dragged England out of the mire, and into a good position, but I'd say it was a pretty even day. Nice to see England playing some positive, attacking cricket though.


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## Dan2501 (May 22, 2015)

This has definitely been New Zealands day so far. 131-0 as it stands currently, and only 258 behind. Reckon Taylor and McCullum will smash us around when they eventually come in.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2015)

England fail to build on a good recovery and their toothless attack taken to the sword. More problems for captain and ECB but this has one result written all over it and that's a NZ win. Big first innings score tomorrow and two days to bowl England out


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## Piece (May 22, 2015)

More rumblings from the Sky commentary box about Cook's reactive, not proactive, captaincy....


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2015)

Piece said:



			More rumblings from the Sky commentary box about Cook's reactive, not proactive, captaincy....

Click to expand...

Thats interesting - which guys because Warne was very complimentary of things he was trying


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2015)

Piece said:



			More rumblings from the Sky commentary box about Cook's reactive, not proactive, captaincy....

Click to expand...

Not seen any of it but listened to Test Match Special and they panel on there were equally unconvinced that compared to the likes of McCullem and the more unorthodox (called it one day syndrome) captains coming through, whether Cook had it in him other than to set a traditional test field and rely on normal tactics to get a result


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## fundy (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thats interesting - which guys because Warne was very complimentary of things he was trying
		
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Did you watch todays play?

Complimentary of him standing there cross armed most of the day. Or the constant short of a length tactic in pitch it up and swing it conditions? Or using the part time spinner ahead of the so called front line spinner after tea?

I know youve decided youre a fan of the current set up but seriously trying to defend England in the field today is a losing cause, they were horrendous, from the no ball, to Bells awful drop, to Broads embarassing attempt at a run out, to poor lengths for the conditions.

As for taking what Warne says at face value.......


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## Piece (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thats interesting - which guys because Warne was very complimentary of things he was trying
		
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Warne and Botham. And yes, i watched the day's play, not the highlights.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2015)

fundy said:



			Did you watch todays play?

Complimentary of him standing there cross armed most of the day. Or the constant short of a length tactic in pitch it up and swing it conditions? Or using the part time spinner ahead of the so called front line spinner after tea?

I know youve decided youre a fan of the current set up but seriously trying to defend England in the field today is a losing cause, they were horrendous, from the no ball, to Bells awful drop, to Broads embarassing attempt at a run out, to poor lengths for the conditions.

As for taking what Warne says at face value.......
		
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Seen the highlights (or not so high) and I agree. I can't see how anyone can really say Cook's captaincy today has been powerful, successful, innovative or even whether the players really look like they fully buy into his ideas. Very interesting listening to TMS for the first time in yonks and plenty on there (aggers, Tufnell and even Blowers) all taking Cook to task for letting the game drift and not trying something different to try and get a wicket.


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## Piece (May 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very interesting listening to TMS for the first time in yonks and plenty on there (aggers, Tufnell and even Blowers) all taking Cook to task for letting the game drift and not trying something different to try and get a wicket.
		
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This. Same on Sky. And the same for many a test match. Cook waiting for something to happen rather than try and make it happen. Not my words, words of ex-captains and world class ex-players.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2015)

fundy said:



			Did you watch todays play?

Complimentary of him standing there cross armed most of the day. Or the constant short of a length tactic in pitch it up and swing it conditions? Or using the part time spinner ahead of the so called front line spinner after tea?

I know youve decided youre a fan of the current set up but seriously trying to defend England in the field today is a losing cause, they were horrendous, from the no ball, to Bells awful drop, to Broads embarassing attempt at a run out, to poor lengths for the conditions.

As for taking what Warne says at face value.......
		
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I did watch a good portion of it but we both know we are opposites - you want the opposition to win where as i want England to win

Im happy tehy allow Cook to continue because regardless of the constant slating he gets his record is up there with all the recent captains - right now believe Cook has earned the right to continue to skipper the team - unless Cook is to blame for a dropped catch or a poor run out etc etc - its always easy to blame the skipper - England have been doing it for decades.

i guess all the stuff with bringing both Stokes and Buttler up the order would be down to someone else ( something they all highlighted as forward thinking from the management ) - could even see in the evening sessions trying to change things with legs slips and close in catchers etc - to try and get the wicket etc ( also mentioned by Warne , Botham and Smith ) Bumble was critical as was Atherton

I would prefer instead of just slating England to actually give credit to the New Zealands batsmen for today.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I did watch a good portion of it but we both know we are opposites - you want the opposition to win where as i want England to win

Im happy tehy allow Cook to continue because regardless of the constant slating he gets his record is up there with all the recent captains - right now believe Cook has earned the right to continue to skipper the team - unless Cook is to blame for a dropped catch or a poor run out etc etc - its always easy to blame the skipper - England have been doing it for decades.

i guess all the stuff with bringing both Stokes and Buttler up the order would be down to someone else ( something they all highlighted as forward thinking from the management ) - could even see in the evening sessions trying to change things with legs slips and close in catchers etc - to try and get the wicket etc 

I would prefer instead of just slating England to actually give credit to the New Zealands batsmen for today.
		
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Series defeat to West Indies, humiliation in the last Ashes series, abject failure in the ODI game. Yep, definitely earned the right to still be there. He is in abject form personally seems to have the weight of the world on his shoulders and has failed to adapt and develop as test cricket moves on into a new generation. As for slating England, the bowlers were very poor today and batsmen simply feasted on the runs available. They'll bat England out of the game tomorrow and have two days to bowl them out (successfully)


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			i guess all the stuff with bringing both Stokes and Buttler up the order would be down to someone else ( something they all highlighted as forward thinking from the management )
		
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Wasn't putting Stokes in higher up the order due to Ali being in the nets and not getting back to the changing room in time to get his kit on in time when the wicket fell? Don't think even you can spin that to make it look like it was a good decision by Cook.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't putting Stokes in higher up the order due to Ali being in the nets and not getting back to the changing room in time to get his kit on in time when the wicket fell? Don't think even you can spin that to make it look like it was a good decision by Cook.
		
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Unless Ali was still trying to find his kit when they also moved Buttler up as well

Last night and again this morning before play they said it was a management choice to get Stokes and Buttler in to play shots.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless Ali was still trying to find his kit when they also moved Buttler up as well

Last night and again this morning before play *they said* it was a management choice to get Stokes and Buttler in to play shots.
		
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Who said that? All I've heard and read is that Ali was seen rushing back from the nets and wasn't ready in time to bat.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Who said that? All I've heard and read is that Ali was seen rushing back from the nets and wasn't ready in time to bat.
		
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Its in all the papers and it was confirmed during the interview with Stokes and Root at the end of yesterdays play - it was a tactical move.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its in all the papers and it was confirmed during the interview with Stokes and Root at the end of yesterdays play - it was a tactical move.
		
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Haven't seen the interview with Stokes and Root but Reuters, Daily Mail, nz.sports and a few others are still reporting that it was due to Ali not being ready as well as what TMS were saying at the time. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## Tongo (May 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I did watch a good portion of it but we both know we are opposites - you want the opposition to win where as i want England to win

Im happy tehy allow Cook to continue because regardless of the constant slating he gets his record is up there with all the recent captains - right now believe Cook has earned the right to continue to skipper the team - unless Cook is to blame for a dropped catch or a poor run out etc etc - its always easy to blame the skipper - England have been doing it for decades.

i guess all the stuff with bringing both Stokes and Buttler up the order would be down to someone else ( something they all highlighted as forward thinking from the management ) - could even see in the evening sessions trying to change things with legs slips and close in catchers etc - to try and get the wicket etc ( also mentioned by Warne , Botham and Smith ) Bumble was critical as was Atherton

I would prefer instead of just slating England to actually give credit to the New Zealands batsmen for today.
		
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Cook's recent captaincy record is poor. One series win out of four including a 5-0 thrashing down under and a home series loss to Sri Lanka. He cant live off the series win in India and the 2013 Ashes win forever. They were 2 years ago. (and more in the case of India) 

Since the Ashes mauling England's cricket has been mediocre, turgid and dull to watch. Thankfully Stokes and Root broke those shackles on Thursday. I hope that continues but i think it will be despite Cook's captaincy.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Cook's recent captaincy record is poor. One series win out of four including a 5-0 thrashing down under and a home series loss to Sri Lanka. He cant live off the series win in India and the 2013 Ashes win forever. They were 2 years ago. (and more in the case of India) 

Since the Ashes mauling England's cricket has been mediocre, turgid and dull to watch. Thankfully Stokes and Root broke those shackles on Thursday. I hope that continues but i think it will be despite Cook's captaincy.
		
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We beat India last September and then drew at West Indies - so unbeaten in the last two and overall he has had one bad series - the 5 nil down in Australia which was full of issues 

But it's clear it doesn't matter what will happen - if it's good it will be inspire of Cook a if its poor it's all his fault - lack of consistency there. If your going to play him for everything else than at least be willing to give credit when something good does happen - if not then it's just an agenda


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## gazr99 (May 23, 2015)

Hate seeing England get trounced but am pleased seeing Kane Williamson play well. To be brutally honest don't know if I can see Lyth lasting long in the test team, personally I prefer his Yorkshire team mate Alex Lees.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2015)

Good fightback from England today - bowlers certainly a lot more threatening but still missing chances


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## Tongo (May 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We beat India last September and then drew at West Indies - so unbeaten in the last two and overall he has had one bad series - the 5 nil down in Australia which was full of issues 

But it's clear it doesn't matter what will happen - if it's good it will be inspire of Cook a if its poor it's all his fault - lack of consistency there. If your going to play him for everything else than at least be willing to give credit when something good does happen - if not then it's just an agenda
		
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Forgotten the loss at home to Sri Lanka then. And a draw in the West Indies isnt anything to crow about.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2015)

Good days cricket today - nice fightback from the bowlers and then some nice gritty batting from Bell and Cook - going to be an interesting last two days


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## HomerJSimpson (May 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Good days cricket today - nice fightback from the bowlers and then some nice gritty batting from Bell and Cook - going to be an interesting last two days
		
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No mention of the openers failing...again. Not sure 529 conceded can be seen as a good bowling performance and the bowlers definitely helped by the lower order looking to move the game on and play shots


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## Dan2501 (May 23, 2015)

Seems like its been yet another toothless England display. We're going to get trounced by the Aussies, it's going to be embarrassing.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



*Seems like its been yet another toothless England display*. We're going to get trounced by the Aussies, it's going to be embarrassing.
		
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Seems ?

Not toothless at all


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

whatever you think about his captaincy Cooks batting looks miles ahead of where it has been recently, feet are moving with much more conviction which means hes got far more time, bats not as angled as it was so all looks a lot tighter. Big few hours coming up in terms of this test and setting the tone for the summer


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2015)

Root, just looks on another level compared to the rest.


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## Tongo (May 24, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			Root, just looks on another level compared to the rest.
		
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In the form of his life. Looks to have settled in well to the number 5 spot.


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

super counter attack from Stokes this, not very bright from Southee but fun to watch


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

Cracking from England today - seems a few of the predictions were way off the mark !


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cracking from England today - seems a few of the predictions were way off the mark !
		
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Not at all. Good to see centuries from Cook and Stokes but the top order has still failed. Bell and Ballance haven't delivered and I still think the bowlers aren't good enough to turn matches. England may well get a draw out of this but it's hardly going to have Australia shacking in their cricket boots


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

Effectively 255-6. Not a massive lead with a day to go and I still think anything under 300 will give NZ a fighting chance tomorrow


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

all setting up for a cracking final day with all results possible, just a shame the pitch is still as good as it is really as may lead to it petering out to a draw. that said, if anyones not got anything on tomorrow and can get to lords its Â£20 a ticket on the gate and free for U16s, could get a lot of cricket for a very cheap ticket


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			all setting up for a cracking final day with all results possible, just a shame the pitch is still as good as it is really as may lead to it petering out to a draw. that said, if anyones not got anything on tomorrow and can get to lords its Â£20 a ticket on the gate and free for U16s, could get a lot of cricket for a very cheap ticket
		
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Still looks green - shame we don't have a true spinner because I reckon a Swann would get a lot out of the pitch. Hopefully the last two days have given England a lot of confidence


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still looks green - shame we don't have a true spinner because I reckon a Swann would get a lot out of the pitch. Hopefully the last two days have given England a lot of confidence
		
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Cook will have gained confidence but the top order and bowlers haven't really performed and a lack of a world class spinner will be an achilles for England for while


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still looks green - shame we don't have a true spinner because I reckon a Swann would get a lot out of the pitch. Hopefully the last two days have given England a lot of confidence
		
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Looks green but its done very little off the seam most of the game and has started to slow up a little, most of the movement has been from the overhead conditions.

Both sides spinners looked lacking, bowled a bit on the short side probably partly due to the lack of pace in the deck

I struggle to see us bowling them out unless the new ball does loads early, but stranger things have happened. Hope the games still alive when my golfs done rather than having petered out though!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			Looks green but its done very little off the seam most of the game and has started to slow up a little, most of the movement has been from the overhead conditions.

Both sides spinners looked lacking, bowled a bit on the short side probably partly due to the lack of pace in the deck

I struggle to see us bowling them out unless the new ball does loads early, but stranger things have happened. Hope the games still alive when my golfs done rather than having petered out though!
		
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Wood looked very useful

Broad started to show a lot of aggression , Stokes was a bit unlucky with the dropped catches ( even though he still bowls too many "4" balls ) - so with a bit more luck and a few early wickets and it could be an interesting last day


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wood looked very useful

Broad started to show a lot of aggression , Stokes was a bit unlucky with the dropped catches ( even though he still bowls too many "4" balls ) - so with a bit more luck and a few early wickets and it could be an interesting last day
		
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despite that NZ still got 500+, not sure I see us bowling them out in 75ish overs second time round. if the ball doesnt swing i struggle to see where we get wickets from


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			despite that NZ still got 500+, not sure I see us bowling them out in 75ish overs second time round. if the ball doesnt swing i struggle to see where we get wickets from
		
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Getting the last 7 wickets for 120 runs was a good fightback from the bowlers that is something to build on


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting the last 7 wickets for 120 runs was a good fightback from the bowlers that is something to build on
		
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Clutching at straws!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

Quality knock from Cook today 2nd test ton this year - not bad for someone in abject form 

Alex Hales had a great tweet yesterday - said its funny that people are slating Ballance after praising him for getting to a 1000 runs for England quicker than anyone else


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quality knock from Cook today 2nd test ton this year - not bad for someone in abject form 

Alex Hales had a great tweet yesterday - said its funny that people are slating Ballance after praising him for getting to a 1000 runs for England quicker than anyone else
		
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Yep Cook played superb, could see from very early on today he was in much better nick than he has been, feet moving better and leaving the ball better. Definitely been put some time in the nets recently


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			Yep Cook played superb, could see from very early on today he was in much better nick than he has been, feet moving better and leaving the ball better. Definitely been put some time in the nets recently
		
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Yeah could see him battling yesterday and his timing looked good - could see the bat wasn't too far from his body and was confident


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

You still can't ignore (well some can) that the top order for England fail more often than not and that compared to many other top sides we lose too many early wickets which can put the team on the back foot. If no-one makes a big knock to dig them out of the hole they are usually rolled over inside three days. At 30-4 on the first day it needed the big innings and they won't always happen.


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

some comical views on declarations from ex players being bandied about, talk of setting NZ 320-330 in 80 overs. Test been played at 4rpo with 330ish a day being scored, cant see why theyd ever set less than say 360 in 70 overs here, especially in only a 2 test series


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			some comical views on declarations from ex players being bandied about, talk of setting NZ 320-330 in 80 overs. Test been played at 4rpo with 330ish a day being scored, cant see why theyd ever set less than say 360 in 70 overs here, especially in only a 2 test series
		
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Some still think getting 250 on the last day is a tough ask - it clearly isn't and think anything over 380 is when to declare


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			some comical views on declarations from ex players being bandied about, talk of setting NZ 320-330 in 80 overs. Test been played at 4rpo with 330ish a day being scored, cant see why theyd ever set less than say 360 in 70 overs here, especially in only a 2 test series
		
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Totally agree. Realise we've done well to escape with a draw, bat out as long as possible tomorrow and play NZ out of it and take the draw, regroup and try and win the next one


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## fundy (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some still think getting 250 on the last day is a tough ask - it clearly isn't and think anything over 380 is when to declare
		
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pitches are very different these days, mainly due to the drainage systems, they just dont break up like pitches used to. this pitch going to be very similar on day 5 as to how it was on day 2. be a min of 5rpo i expect unless they get bowled out which looks highly unlikely


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			pitches are very different these days, mainly due to the drainage systems, they just dont break up like pitches used to. this pitch going to be very similar on day 5 as to how it was on day 2. be a min of 5rpo i expect unless they get bowled out which looks highly unlikely
		
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I can see NZ getting 5 runs an over especially with wickets in hand. I would cut the losses and run with a draw or set an unrealistic target to chase


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

fundy said:



			pitches are very different these days, mainly due to the drainage systems, they just dont break up like pitches used to. this pitch going to be very similar on day 5 as to how it was on day 2. be a min of 5rpo i expect unless they get bowled out which looks highly unlikely
		
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It's a shame they don't break up to give the bowlers a hand - too much focus on making this pitch playable all 5 days for batting IMO


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's a shame they don't break up to give the bowlers a hand - too much focus on making this pitch playable all 5 days for batting IMO
		
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Actually has much more to do with the drainage of outfields in an attempt to ensure that play can recommence after rain delays. Too many occasions in the past where play could not restart despite the pitch and surrounds, including run ups, having been covered and playable but the outfield was not.

The drainage of the outfield also means the square retains less moisture and, therefore, wickets hold together better.

The County Championship results confirm that those grounds that have undertaken this kind of work (usually Test grounds) tend to produce less "three day" results.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually has much more to do with the drainage of outfields in an attempt to ensure that play can recommence after rain delays. Too many occasions in the past where play could not restart despite the pitch and surrounds, including run ups, having been covered and playable but the outfield was not.

The drainage of the outfield also means the square retains less moisture and, therefore, wickets hold together better.

The County Championship results confirm that those grounds that have undertaken this kind of work (usually Test grounds) tend to produce less "three day" results.
		
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Cheers for the info 

So how about Stokes ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cheers for the info 

So how about Stokes ?
		
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Terrific counter attacking innings but to quote the "experts" on Sky last night he is a batsman who can bowl a bit, same is true of Moeen Ali and the truth is that England cannot afford them both.

Generally speaking Tests are won by taking 20 wickets and that is usually very difficult with only three specialist bowlers, in this case Anderson, Broad and Wood.

As Bob Willis and Jeremy Coney both said Ben Stokes is not currently sufficiently dependable to be a mainline Test bowler.

Six batsmen, four bowlers and a wicket-keeper. Where does Stokes fit into that? 

The only batsman that is certain of a place long term is Root and, probably, Cook so that leaves possible vacancies at 2, 3, 4 & 6. 

Stokes could fill the last of those spots but it would then leave no space for Ali who seems to be our only spin option. Who would be a selector?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Terrific counter attacking innings but to quote the "experts" on Sky last night he is a batsman who can bowl a bit, same is true of Moeen Ali and the truth is that England cannot afford them both.

Generally speaking Tests are won by taking 20 wickets and that is usually very difficult with only three specialist bowlers, in this case Anderson, Broad and Wood.

As Bob Willis and Jeremy Coney both said Ben Stokes is not currently sufficiently dependable to be a mainline Test bowler.

Six batsmen, four bowlers and a wicket-keeper. Where does Stokes fit into that? 

The only batsman that is certain of a place long term is Root and, probably, Cook so that leaves possible vacancies at 2, 3, 4 & 6. 

Stokes could fill the last of those spots but it would then leave no space for Ali who seems to be our only spin option. Who would be a selector?
		
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When Flintoff started out he was a batsmen who can bowl a bit - Stokes already has the pace and raw ability to become a quick dangerous bowler , as with Freddie and even Jimmy he will develop his bowling to become a good 4th option given time like others. 

That along with his obvious shot making talent with the bat makes him a great player to bat in the 6/7 slot and able to move up the order of needed. 

The good news is England are going to allow that to develop and with a bit of luck even in this test he would have had three wickets and NZ with a lot less runs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When Flintoff started out he was a batsmen who can bowl a bit - Stokes already has the pace and raw ability to become a quick dangerous bowler , as with Freddie and even Jimmy he will develop his bowling to become a good 4th option given time like others. 

That along with his obvious shot making talent with the bat makes him a great player to bat in the 6/7 slot and able to move up the order of needed. 

The good news is England are going to allow that to develop and with a bit of luck even in this test he would have had three wickets and NZ with a lot less runs.
		
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Unfortunately time is a luxury we do not have. Only Anderson and Broad are experienced so we cannot have both our other bowlers learning "on the job."

Wood has only played approx 25 First Class games so is still a work in progress and Stokes remains far too erratic with a "four ball" virtually guaranteed each over.

Stokes' batting is also rather "feast or famine" but I agree his two innings in this Test do suggest that he could probably do a good job at six. That does mean no place for Ali and thus no spin option.

Also would disagree about Flintoff, I would say that he always was a bowling all-rounder rather than a batsman who bowled a bit.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Unfortunately time is a luxury we do not have. Only Anderson and Broad are experienced so we cannot have both our other bowlers learning "on the job."

Wood has only played approx 25 First Class games so is still a work in progress and Stokes remains far too erratic with a "four ball" virtually guaranteed each over.

Stokes' batting is also rather "feast or famine" but I agree his two innings in this Test do suggest that he could probably do a good job at six. That does mean no place for Ali and thus no spin option.

Also would disagree about Flintoff, I would say that he always was a bowling all-rounder rather than a batsman who bowled a bit.
		
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The only way players develop their game at the high level is playing at the high level - always have to have time to allow players to nurture their natural game whilst playing 

Yes time is a luxury we do have because we cannot keep swapping in and out players - England did that throughout the 90's and it got us nowhere 

Its the same with Ali - he continues in the side to allow him to develop as a spinner 

Right now it's the options that England have gone for and it's the team they must give time to develop as a team - it's something we did under Flower and Fletcher , since Flower left we have had too many changes and we need to let a team settle


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## Paperboy (May 24, 2015)

I just feel sorry for Rashid, runs and wickets in div 1. Obviously something they don't like about him!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The only way players develop their game at the high level is playing at the high level - always have to have time to allow players to nurture their natural game whilst playing 

Yes time is a luxury we do have because we cannot keep swapping in and out players - England did that throughout the 90's and it got us nowhere 

Its the same with Ali - he continues in the side to allow him to develop as a spinner 

Right now it's the options that England have gone for and it's the team they must give time to develop as a team - it's something we did under Flower and Fletcher , since Flower left we have had too many changes and we need to let a team settle
		
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That is only possible if the players in question show enough to suggest that there is something to develop and personally I have not seen that with Stokes' bowling. Also the team needs sufficient experience around that potential.

Also please don't remind me of Andy Flower. I am afraid I see him as a reason for many of England's current woes and he continues to have considerable influence in his current, less public, role.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Paperboy said:



			I just feel sorry for Rashid, runs and wickets in div 1. Obviously something they don't like about him!!
		
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As we have, over the years, had so few leggies I think the selectors are inherently suspicious.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			That is only possible if the players in question show enough to suggest that there is something to develop and personally I have not seen that with Stokes' bowling. Also the team needs sufficient experience around that potential.

Also please don't remind me of Andy Flower. I am afraid I see him as a reason for many of England's current woes and he continues to have considerable influence in his current, less public, role.
		
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There is plenty in Stokes bowling to suggest that he can develop - hitting high 80's a number of times is good pace as well as making the batsmen play and miss a number of times , found the edge a fair amount of times and only dropped catches stopped him picking up wickets. But he has already picked up wickets before and will pick up more - far from the finished article and does need to stop the 4 balls that he keeps throwing into an over. 

Not sure how Andy Flower can be critisized - only have to look at his record ?!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is plenty in Stokes bowling to suggest that he can develop - hitting high 80's a number of times is good pace as well as making the batsmen play and miss a number of times , found the edge a fair amount of times and only dropped catches stopped him picking up wickets. But he has already picked up wickets before and will pick up more - far from the finished article and does need to stop the 4 balls that he keeps throwing into an over. 

Not sure how Andy Flower can be critisized - only have to look at his record ?!!
		
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25 wickets at an average of over 40 in nine Tests and one innings of this one does not inspire me with confidence.

Not going to discuss Flower as I am afraid my mind is made up.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			25 wickets at an average of over 40 in nine Tests and one innings of this one does not inspire me with confidence.

Not going to discuss Flower as I am afraid my mind is made up.
		
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9 tests is the clue right there - he is just starting out , his "stats" aren't going to be out of this world and they don't ever tell the whole story 

It's a closed mind then in regards Flower - the man won us three ashes in a row as well as making us the number test side in the world for the first time - you can't get much better than that 

Unless you have some specifics of some issues ?!


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## Dan2501 (May 24, 2015)

Sounds like it was a great innings from Stokes, shame I missed it. Fair play to him, I doubted him, particularly his batting, but he's come good in this first Test. Definitely needs to improve his bowling, but he has immense potential. Definitely one to persist with, and one the Aussies will already be wary of. Fair play to Cook too, stood up when he was most needed and has made a big score.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			9 tests is the clue right there - he is just starting out , his "stats" aren't going to be out of this world and they don't ever tell the whole story 

It's a closed mind then in regards Flower - the man won us three ashes in a row as well as making us the number test side in the world for the first time - you can't get much better than that 

Unless you have some specifics of some issues ?!
		
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And the 5-0 whitewash?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			And the 5-0 whitewash?
		
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A poor series full of player issues - does that mean one bad series cancels out everything previously ?! Not IMO


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A poor series full of player issues - does that mean one bad series cancels out everything previously ?! Not IMO
		
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Certainly not but it also serves to show that there were negatives as well as positives in his coaching style.


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## Dan2501 (May 24, 2015)

One bad series does not make a bad coach. Certain players didn't get on with him, but all respected him. Flower did a superb job as England coach, and helped build one of the most successful England teams of the last 20 years.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Certainly not but it also serves to show that there were negatives as well as positives in his coaching style.
		
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As with every coach but his results overall speak for themselves


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			One bad series does not make a bad coach. Certain players didn't get on with him, but all respected him. Flower did a superb job as England coach, and helped build one of the most successful England teams of the last 20 years.
		
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The man oversaw the formation of cliques within the dressing room and it certainly is not true to suggest that all respected him.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

That's a pretty good start from the bowlers


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

NZ set 345 to win after 5 overs they are 8-2 
Great start


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

And another goes :whoo:


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

Best I've seen England bowl for a while 12-3 after 8 overs


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Stokes you little ripper!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Turning into a cracking test match - both sides playing well , all the doom and gloom has gone and lots of positivity in the crowd 

Stokes is really getting the crowd going with some great bowling - great counter attack from Anderson - some attacking captaincy from Cook 

Lots of good stuff to keep the doubters mute for a while 

A great final session could see Anderson get his 400th and England a win


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

This is awesome. Great comeback from England. Looked dead and buried on the first morning, but they've come back superbly. Hope they finish the job now!


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

Could be tight , 20 overs left, 3 wickets needed for us , NZ need 150
Unlikely they will get that but could be a draw, great to watch


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Fair play to England but NZ have made this rather easy with some terrible shot and decisions. Irrespective of this, I still firmly think that there are big issues with the England side. Lyth looked out of his depth, Bell struggling and we cannot build an innings without losing cheap wickets. If we don't get support from the middle order we get skittled out dirt cheap.

There is still huge expectation on Broad and Anderson and the other pace bowlers have looked less than threatening. We still lack a world class spin bowler and while Ali is developing he'll never be in the class of Swann and nor is Root. I think NZ have made today too easy for England and while you cannot deny they have done well to potentially (as I write) win this, against a more ruthless side like Australia or SA when we tour in the winter, we'll still be found wanting.


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

Certainly not going to be dull with Southee out there!


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Ben Stokes you little ripper! (Again!)


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

Get in there. Ben Stokes, we'll just forget you ever played last year, England's new hero, what a man.


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

2 in 2 for England. Southee gone, Moeen picks one up. England on the brink!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Great delivery from Stokes


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fair play to England but NZ have made this rather easy with some terrible shot and decisions. Irrespective of this, I still firmly think that there are big issues with the England side. Lyth looked out of his depth, Bell struggling and we cannot build an innings without losing cheap wickets. If we don't get support from the middle order we get skittled out dirt cheap.

There is still huge expectation on Broad and Anderson and the other pace bowlers have looked less than threatening. We still lack a world class spin bowler and while Ali is developing he'll never be in the class of Swann and nor is Root. I think NZ have made today too easy for England and while you cannot deny they have done well to potentially (as I write) win this, against a more ruthless side like Australia or SA when we tour in the winter, we'll still be found wanting.
		
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A win is a win , but NZ is never an easy game, we have bowled well today and the batsmen gave the bowlers a decent cushion, Trevor Bailey probably coming in as coach , new hero in stokes , it ain't all bad

1 wicket to go , come on Engerland


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			A win is a win , but NZ is never an easy game, we have bowled well today and the batsmen gave the bowlers a decent cushion, Trevor Baylis
probably coming in as coach , new hero in stokes , it ain't all bad

1 wicket to go , come on Engerland 

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England have played some good, attacking cricket which has got the crowd going as well and made it a much more enjoyable experience.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			A win is a win , but NZ is never an easy game, we have bowled well today and the batsmen gave the bowlers a decent cushion, Trevor Baylis probably coming in as coach , new hero in stokes , it ain't all bad

1 wicket to go , come on Engerland 

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A win *is* a win and I agree 100% with you. However I think NZ have been the architects of their own demise (makes a change from England doing it) and this will still flatter to deceive. I still think we're not that strong, struggle at the top of the order and rely too much on the middle order to get us out of jail time and time again. Against a better test batting line up, the lack of a world class spinner will be telling, especially the next time we go to the sub-continent


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

They've picked this team, they're on the verge of a win, you have to stick with them. Lyth definitely needs to be given the summer. We've chopped and changed too much, we've picked Lyth, he deserves his place, and should be given chance to prove his worth. Stokes has been a revelation so far this summer. Attacking, positive batting, and dangerous with the ball. Looks like he's going to have a great summer, so pleased for him. He's always looked great for Durham, but never kicked on for England other than that one innings against the Aussies. Looks a potential superstar!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			They've picked this team, they're on the verge of a win, you have to stick with them. Lyth definitely needs to be given the summer. We've chopped and changed too much, we've picked Lyth, he deserves his place, and should be given chance to prove his worth. Stokes has been a revelation so far this summer. Attacking, positive batting, and dangerous with the ball. Looks like he's going to have a great summer, so pleased for him. He's always looked great for Durham, but never kicked on for England other than that one innings against the Aussies. Looks a potential superstar!
		
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Up to a point I agree stick with Lyth although I am not convinced. Bell still looks iffy and making too many low scores. Stokes has been a find and as long as he's not built up to be the next Botham or Flintoff then he should be able to develop and grow. We need someone that can turn a game.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Some catch by Ali to win the game


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

Thats it then, great come-from-behind win for England. Hopefully they can kick on now and have a good summer.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

We won Yessssssssss

Classic test match that, over 1600 runs scored, great to watch
Let's have more please


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Thats it then, great come-from-behind win for England. Hopefully they can kick on now and have a good series.
		
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Only a two test series!


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

Whoops, definitely meant to type summer!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Quality win and that shoves a few words down people's throats all over the place 

Some great performances out there over the 5 days and after all the negative press it's brilliant to see them win 

Stokes - brilliant - turned the match for us twice 

Cook - wonderful with the bat and some great attacking decisions 

Root - just gets better 

So many more really impressive performances 

For a team with so many in abject form with no match winners or players who can turn a game and won't bowl out New Zealand they did pretty well 

How Lyth can be even talked about negatively yet is hilarious - he has had two innings !!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quality win and that shoves a few words down people's throats all over the place 

Some great performances out there over the 5 days and after all the negative press it's brilliant to see them win 

Stokes - brilliant - turned the match for us twice 

Cook - wonderful with the bat and some great attacking decisions 

Root - just gets better 

So many more really impressive performances 

For a team with so many in abject form with no match winners or players who can turn a game and won't bowl out New Zealand they did pretty well 

How Lyth can be even talked about negatively yet is hilarious - he has had two innings !!
		
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No it doesn't and it's about opinions so please respect mine. As I said but I'll reiterate for you, it was good to see Cook back in the runs and a great knock by Stokes. However the top order (Lyth, but Bell in particular) failed and you need to be able to build innings without the need to rely on mid order performances to save the side. We've seen what happens when our middle order fail and we get knocked over for less than 170

Other impressive performances? Stokes second innings bowling was good but don't forget he took 0-105 in the first innings so lets not get too carried away. If anything Broad was the stand out bowler with three in each innings. We still lack an penetrative spinner and there are still issues with the side and NZ certainly helped England with some of their dismissals. Yes it was a good win from 30-4 but I still think we're a long way from being one of the best sides in the world and would put us as 4th best at a push


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## Beezerk (May 25, 2015)

Best couple of days cricket I've watched in a long time, brilliant stuff.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			Best couple of days cricket I've watched in a long time, brilliant stuff.
		
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It was good to see. Mind you I could watch test cricket at any time


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			Best couple of days cricket I've watched in a long time, brilliant stuff.
		
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It was brilliant to watch - some cracking counter attack batting - hostile bowling , quality swing bowling and all played in a great spirit. Really enjoyed the last two days especially.


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Great stuff from England. I've been one of Cook's staunchest critics but fair play to him today. He made some decisions which have worked well and England have emerged victorious. 

It is great to see England playing good, attacking cricket as well.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Yes it was a good win from 30-4 but I still think we're a long way from being one of the best sides in the world and would put us as 4th best at a push
		
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Well at least 4 th place gets us Champions League

Oh wait a minute 

I'll get my coat ......again


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



Great stuff from England. I've been one of Cook's staunchest critics but fair play to him today. He made some decisions which have worked well and England have emerged victorious. 

It is great to see England playing good, attacking cricket as well.

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Fair post :thup:

Still a few issues and the spinner is the main one
You could see that Cook really wanted to turn to Ali and surround the bat but Ali just keeps dropping it too short 

They won't do it but Rashid does need a chance


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Fair post :thup:

Still a few issues and the spinner is the main one
You could see that Cook really wanted to turn to Ali and surround the bat but Ali just keeps dropping it too short 

They won't do it but Rashid does need a chance
		
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I will always nail my colours to the mast but dont have an issue admitting when those colours have been proven wrong. 

As regards England, yes Ali isnt looking the player he was last summer. Root looks a better spin option at the moment. And Stokes isnt going to produce those sorts of performances each match so others, particularly the bowlers, will need to step up. Stokes' 2 in 2 balls effectively turned the match as the TMS commentators were saying before that that it was like NZ were having a net. (Despite the poor start!)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			I will always nail my colours to the mast but dont have an issue admitting when those colours have been proven wrong. 

As regards England, yes Ali isnt looking the player he was last summer. Root looks a better spin option at the moment. And Stokes isnt going to produce those sorts of performances each match so others, particularly the bowlers, will need to step up. Stokes' 2 in 2 balls effectively turned the match as the TMS commentators were saying before that that it was like NZ were having a net. (Despite the poor start!)
		
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Good to see the admission instead of digging the hole bigger - there have been some whoppers said on here over the weeks that have been proved very wrong over the last 5 days 

Was surprised that Root wasn't used more as he has been dangerous before 

Ali isn't a front line spinner and not sure if he can develop into one 

Stokes just needs to stop those boundary deliveries that he keeps throwing into every over but he looked very dangerous and quick today and can certainly see him developing more as a bowler. With the bat I think he will just play his natural game and will counter attack 

Was impressed with Buttlers keeping - that's coming on very nicely 

Broad looked very lively today 

Will be interesting to see how Wood develops.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Good to see the admission instead of digging the hole bigger - there have been some whoppers said on here over the weeks that have been proved very wrong over the last 5 days 

Was surprised that Root wasn't used more as he has been dangerous before 

Ali isn't a front line spinner and not sure if he can develop into one 

Stokes just needs to stop those boundary deliveries that he keeps throwing into every over but he looked very dangerous and quick today and can certainly see him developing more as a bowler. With the bat I think he will just play his natural game and will counter attack 

Was impressed with Buttlers keeping - that's coming on very nicely 

Broad looked very lively today 

Will be interesting to see how Wood develops.
		
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Stokes 0-105 in the first innings. NZ batted poorly today to gift England a win. Root and Ali aren't world class spinners and there is still too much reliance on Broad and Anderson


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Stokes 0-105 in the first innings. NZ batted poorly today to gift England a win. Root and Ali aren't world class spinners and there is still too much reliance on Broad and Anderson
		
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Didnt Stokes have a couple of dropped catches off of his first innings bowling? Anyhow, he's gonna be one of those players when he looks mediocre one moment and world class the next. But look at how his style turned the game this afternoon: raw pace and getting something out of the pitch. England arent likely to get that from Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan et al.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Didnt Stokes have a couple of dropped catches off of his first innings bowling? Anyhow, he's gonna be one of those players when he looks mediocre one moment and world class the next. But look at how his style turned the game this afternoon: raw pace and getting something out of the pitch. England arent likely to get that from Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan et al.
		
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Bell dropped two catches from his bowling and I think Ali let one through his hands which he shouldn't have 

With better catching Stokes could have easily had two or three wickets - shows that stats don't tell the whole story and also also plenty of bowlers in the past have had innings where they pick up nothing for lots of runs


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Didnt Stokes have a couple of dropped catches off of his first innings bowling? Anyhow, he's gonna be one of those players when he looks mediocre one moment and world class the next. But look at how his style turned the game this afternoon: raw pace and getting something out of the pitch. England arent likely to get that from Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan et al.
		
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And that is the problem. Can we afford to have someone who is mediocre at times to support Broad and Anderson. Neither of these can go on forever and have injury issues. He did bowl well this afternoon but we need more support and definitely a spinner


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Stokes 0-105 in the first innings. NZ batted poorly today to gift England a win. Root and Ali aren't world class spinners and there is still too much reliance on Broad and Anderson
		
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Hang on! 

I may have been sceptical about Stokes' bowling but fair play he bowled much better today and made a big difference, let's hope he can maintain that improvement throughout the summer.

Ridiculous to imply that the result was attributable to poor batting by the Kiwis. Broad, Wood and Stokes all bowled well, Jimmy was struggling to get it swinging.

Agree that neither Ali nor Root are the answer to the lack of a spinner so we may have to try Rashid although his early season performances have hardly been compelling. If he is not the answer then just forget spin as a serious option as there is no one else kicking the door down.

The batting from 5 downwards plus Cook was excellent in the second innings.

As for the captaincy it was not as defensive as usual although I did struggle to understand the need for a third man when NZ were 12 for 3. Seems Alistair's old habits die hard.


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And that is the problem. Can we afford to have someone who is mediocre at times to support Broad and Anderson. Neither of these can go on forever and have injury issues. He did bowl well this afternoon but we need more support and definitely a spinner
		
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England dont have any standout options though do they? They've tried Woakes and Jordan, Bresnan isn't up to it any more whilst the likes of Tremlett are nowhere near international standard. I would much rather they stick with Stokes with his unpredictable style rather than the dependable yet dull Woakes and Jordan who will be milked by quality batsmen.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			England dont have any standout options though do they? They've tried Woakes and Jordan, Bresnan isn't up to it any more whilst the likes of Tremlett are nowhere near international standard. I would much rather they stick with Stokes with his unpredictable style rather than the dependable yet dull Woakes and Jordan who will be milked by quality batsmen.
		
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Spot on again - and also Metal Mickies post spot on as well 

So much more positives to take out of the game - to suggest that NZ gifted it to England is disrespectful to some very good performances out there 

But as been said - they need to do it again and keep improving


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Didnt Stokes have a couple of dropped catches off of his first innings bowling? Anyhow, he's gonna be one of those players when he looks mediocre one moment and world class the next. But look at how his style turned the game this afternoon: raw pace and getting something out of the pitch. England arent likely to get that from Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan et al.
		
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That is a bit of a myth.

Six months ago the stats showed that on average Woakes was two to three mph quicker than Stokes and his fastest delivery was also quicker.


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			That is a bit of a myth.

Six months ago the stats showed that on average Woakes was two to three mph quicker than Stokes and his fastest delivery was also quicker.
		
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Woakes doesnt strike me as the sort of player who could produce those match turning performances that Stokes produced though.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Hang on! 

I may have been sceptical about Stokes' bowling but fair play he bowled much better today and made a big difference, let's hope he can maintain that improvement throughout the summer.

Ridiculous to imply that the result was attributable to poor batting by the Kiwis. Broad, Wood and Stokes all bowled well, Jimmy was struggling to get it swinging.

Agree that neither Ali nor Root are the answer to the lack of a spinner so we may have to try Rashid although his early season performances have hardly been compelling. If he is not the answer then just forget spin as a serious option as there is no one else kicking the door down.

The batting from 5 downwards plus Cook was excellent in the second innings.

As for the captaincy it was not as defensive as usual although I did struggle to understand the need for a third man when NZ were 12 for 3. Seems Alistair's old habits die hard.
		
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Stokes bowled great today but he doesn't seem to be able to do it for two innings as the first innings figures show. That may come with experience. The NZ side batted poorly and played some loose shots but they were put under pressure. Not sure Rashid is the answer but why not chuck him in for the next match although why change a winning side. 

The batting from five down was great in the second innings but we shouldn't have to rely on them to get the top order out of trouble. The way Cook captained was still pretty old school but got results so I don't think you can necessarily condemn him for that


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Woakes doesnt strike me as the sort of player who could produce those match turning performances that Stokes produced though.
		
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I think he can in the ODI arena but not in test cricket


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Woakes doesnt strike me as the sort of player who could produce those match turning performances that Stokes produced though.
		
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Won't know until we try.

Plus he does not enjoy the same sort of Press ballyhoo that surrounds any player from Durham or Yorkshire. Bit like football,a few years ago any young player who played two half decent games for West Ham was immediately touted for England Under 21's. James Tomkins!!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think he can in the ODI arena but not in test cricket
		
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Sorry Phil but that suggests you have not seen him play. Most experts agree that he is probably better suited to the longer form of the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry Phil but that suggests you have not seen him play. Most experts agree that he is probably better suited to the longer form of the game.
		
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Which experts ? Heard lots of experts over the last 5 days and most very wrong when judging players 

and yes seen him play 

Seen nothing from Woakes to suggest he will be a danger as a test bowler and certainly not with the bat. Get a bit of fire in his belly and a bit of attitude and maybe


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## Dan2501 (May 25, 2015)

Mark Wood looked decent, I'd give him the summer and see how he goes before considering other options. Anderson, Broad, Wood and Stokes looks a good, varied seam attack for me, just need to sort the spin out. I'd give Moeen another shot. He was excellent against some of the best players of spin last summer, and just seems to be lacking in match-form currently. I'd stick with him for now, but if he fails to deliver again in the 2nd Test, I'd be picking the best of the spinners in the County game for the Ashes, which, ATM looks like Rashid.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which experts ? Heard lots of experts over the last 5 days and most very wrong when judging players 

and yes seen him play 

Seen nothing from Woakes to suggest he will be a danger as a test bowler and certainly not with the bat. Get a bit of fire in his belly and a bit of attitude and maybe
		
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As he has only played four Tests how can you judge.

In First Class cricket he averages 37 with the bat and 25 with the ball, so you tell me who is the all-rounder.

"Attitude" is vastly over-rated and when overdone players can end up making fools of themselves as Stokes did in the West Indies.


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			As he has only played four Tests how can you judge.

*In First Class cricket he averages 37 with the bat and 25 with the ball, so you tell me who is the all-rounder.*

"Attitude" is vastly over-rated and when overdone players can end up making fools of themselves as Stokes did in the West Indies.
		
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Ramprakash and Hick averaged ridiculous numbers in first class cricket but couldnt convert to international cricket. Meanwhile Trescothick's first class average was nothing special when he made his test debut but he settled in nicely.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			As he has only played four Tests how can you judge.

In First Class cricket he averages 37 with the bat and 25 with the ball, so you tell me who is the all-rounder.

"Attitude" is vastly over-rated and when overdone players can end up making fools of themselves as Stokes did in the West Indies.
		
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I guess in the same way you judged Stokes

I prefer to base on watching them as oppose to numbers - it's how you judged Stokes and he proved those numbers wrong in a five day period - first class numbers don't mean much 

And attitude is far from vastly overrated with arrogance and self belief flowing through a lot of the feisty players in the past that have gone on to do well 

Stokes will grow from this test and will develop - has that spot sealed until the end of the summer at the very least right now.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Ramprakash and Hick averaged ridiculous numbers in first class cricket but couldnt convert to international cricket. Meanwhile Trescothick's first class average was nothing special when he made his test debut but he settled in nicely.
		
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So his figures are better, his speeds are greater but Hey! so what.


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

It amuses me greatly how, despite the performances over the weekend, some people still focus on what a player cant do rather than what he can. Stokes rattles off the fastest test 100 at Lords, almost scored another in the first innings and produced a match turning performance with the ball. Yet there's some who prefer to say "Ah, but he didnt do this, this and this." Come on. 

I listened to TMS this afternoon and the atmosphere post Stokes' 2 in 2 balls was electric. There was genuine excitement in the commentators voices. 20,000+ turned up for the 5th day of a test match with plenty of kids among them. For once England were playing exciting and successful cricket rather than the dull, turgid equivalent of late. What sort of effect do you think Stokes' performances had on the rest of the team? Lets not forget that he's only 23 and only played 10 tests. And lets not forget the 100 and the 6 wicket haul against the Aussies when the rest of the team were getting annihilated. 

How many other countries would be so sceptical about such an exciting player?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			So his figures are better, his speeds are greater but Hey! so what.
		
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75 runs in 4 tests and 6 wickets - Stokes got more than both in the one test down under when he started

Stokes proved you massively wrong over the last 5 days


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

So selectors don't use figures as a factor in selecting players and it's all to do with potential. I still think Stokes is a long way from the finished article and his first innings figures show he can still be inconsistent. As a batsmen I agree he is flourishing but if he's being lined up as the new all rounder there is still work to be done


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			75 runs in 4 tests and 6 wickets - Stokes got more than both in the one test down under when he started
		
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And then disappeared for the next eight Tests.

As for the last five days. Rubbish!

His century was spectacular and as I have said his bowling today was excellent. However, forget the dropped catches, every bowler has to suffer them, his bowling in the Kiwis first innings was brainless and carried no threat.

I hope today's performance represents a turning of the corner but his Test career to date suggests we should wait before hailing the arrival of a new Messiah.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			And then disappeared for the next eight Tests.

As for the last five days. Rubbish!

His century was spectacular and as I have said his bowling today was excellent. However, forget the dropped catches, every bowler has to suffer them, his bowling in the Kiwis first innings was brainless and carried no threat.

I hope today's performance represents a turning of the corner but his Test career to date suggests we should wait before hailing the arrival of a new Messiah.
		
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Bravo!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			And then disappeared for the next eight Tests.

As for the last five days. Rubbish!

His century was spectacular and as I have said his bowling today was excellent. However, forget the dropped catches, every bowler has to suffer them, his bowling in the Kiwis first innings was brainless and carried no threat.

I hope today's performance represents a turning of the corner but his Test career to date suggests we should wait before hailing the arrival of a new Messiah.
		
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Let's not forget his 90 odd in the first innings also 

And you can't forget the dropped catches ( well you can if you are trying to dismiss the player ) - it actually shows that he did carry a threat as he created chances for wickets

Tongo has it spot on - the lad has turned the test for us and still people looking to dismiss him


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			And then disappeared for the next eight Tests.

As for the last five days. Rubbish!

His century was spectacular and as I have said his bowling today was excellent. However, forget the dropped catches, every bowler has to suffer them, his bowling in the Kiwis first innings was brainless and carried no threat.

I hope today's performance represents a turning of the corner but his Test career to date suggests we should wait before hailing the arrival of a new Messiah.
		
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Not quite. 5/91 in the match against India at Lords in a losing battle whilst he scored 114 runs in the first WI test and took 2/42 in the third test where Cook barely bowled him as England's other superstar bowlers couldnt stop Darren Bravo and Blackwood.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Let's not forget his 90 odd in the first innings also 

And you can't forget the dropped catches ( well you can if you are trying to dismiss the player ) - it actually shows that he did carry a threat as he created chances for wickets

Tongo has it spot on - the lad has turned the test for us and still people looking to dismiss him
		
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Where have I dismissed him? I have urged caution and used Woakes as an example to show that, as yet, he has not proved himself at this level. Hopefully he will in due course.

His much vaunted "attitude" clearly backfired in the West Indies. It was not just Colin Graves whose nose they wanted to rub in the Bridgetown dirt.


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## richart (May 25, 2015)

[INDENT[/INDENT]



Liverpoolphil said:



			Quality win and that shoves a few words down people's throats all over the place 

Some great performances out there over the 5 days and after all the negative press it's brilliant to see them win 

Stokes - brilliant - turned the match for us twice 

Cook - wonderful with the bat and some great attacking decisions 

Root - just gets better 

So many more really impressive performances 

For a team with so many in abject form with no match winners or players who can turn a game and won't bowl out New Zealand they did pretty well 

How Lyth can be even talked about negatively yet is hilarious - he has had two innings !!
		
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 Some good points well made. Lath got two good balls which would have got a lot of openers out. Seem to remember Gooch started with three ducks. you can't judge someone on one test. it is also not as if we have a long line of great openers ready to replace him. Lees might be one in a couple of years. Ballance has one bad game, and is suddenly a weakness. Bell is a class batsmen and Will come good. If four of your top six batsmen are firing on a regular basis you will be fine in a test. Root looks like he is the perfect number five, who can take the game away from the opposition with his positive batting. Also a good player of spin. Middle order really suits his style.

Broad bowled better in this test, pitching it up more. Wood seems to offer something different, good pace and reminds me of Simon Jones.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

richart said:



			[INDENT[/INDENT] Some good points well made. Lath got two good balls which would have got a lot of openers out. Seem to remember Gooch started with three ducks. you can't judge someone on one test. it is also not as if we have a long line of great openers ready to replace him. Lees might be one in a couple of years. Ballance has one bad game, and is suddenly a weakness. Bell is a class batsmen and Will come good. If four of your top six batsmen are firing on a regular basis you will be fine in a test. Root looks like he is the perfect number five, who can take the game away from the opposition with his positive batting. Also a good player of spin. Middle order really suits his style.

Broad bowled better in this test, pitching it up more. Wood seems to offer something different, good pace and reminds me of Simon Jones.
		
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Spot on Rich - they all played their part 

And can see exactly what you mean in regards Wood

He didn't stop smiling the whole way through the test

My only worry is a spinner


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Spot on Rich - they all played their part 

*And can see exactly what you mean in regards Wood*

He didn't stop smiling the whole way through the test

My only worry is a spinner
		
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The TMS boys were saying the same thing.


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2015)

Yes it was a great test match and a great win but I think it's a bit soon for all the "told you so's" to be getting thrown around. If we use the same logic then Stoke are going to win the Premier League next season and Liverpool are going to get relegated after yesterday's result. There are plenty of positives to take from the match but lets see how the rest of the year plays out before getting too excited.

The best thing that could've happened this morning was for England to get bowled out fairly quickly rather than bat on until after lunch as could easily have happened. Not saying that would have been wrong as in a two match series you don't want to gift the opposition a chance of winning the first test. I don't think we would've won the match if we hadn't been bowled out and had waited for England to declare.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

richart said:



			[INDENT[/INDENT] Some good points well made. Lath got two good balls which would have got a lot of openers out. Seem to remember Gooch started with three ducks. you can't judge someone on one test. it is also not as if we have a long line of great openers ready to replace him. Lees might be one in a couple of years. Ballance has one bad game, and is suddenly a weakness. Bell is a class batsmen and Will come good. If four of your top six batsmen are firing on a regular basis you will be fine in a test. Root looks like he is the perfect number five, who can take the game away from the opposition with his positive batting. Also a good player of spin. Middle order really suits his style.

Broad bowled better in this test, pitching it up more. Wood seems to offer something different, good pace and reminds me of Simon Jones.
		
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Bell is a class batsmen who was very poor in the West Indies and failed again at Lords. How long keep faith especially if the other top order batsmen are also getting out cheaply. You can't rely on the middle order, especially against top sides and how often has England had four top batsmen firing in the last eighteen months


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			The TMS boys were saying the same thing.
		
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Even Lyth looked like he was enjoying himself in the field - the whole feeling within the match from the team looked very positive and very encouraging after all the hammerings they have been taking in recent weeks


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Even Lyth looked like he was enjoying himself in the field - the whole feeling within the match from the team looked very positive and very encouraging after all the hammerings they have been taking in recent weeks
		
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Easy to look happy when things are going well as they did today. Think the real test will come when in the next match and NZ will come back fiercely and Australia won't be so loose in their batting and won't let England escape from a 30-4 situation


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Even Lyth looked like he was enjoying himself in the field - the whole feeling within the match from the team looked very positive and very encouraging after all the hammerings they have been taking in recent weeks
		
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Yeah. Nobody with a sensible grasp of the game is saying England are now world beaters but they've taken some steps in the right direction and caught the cricketing public's imagination for a few moments.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Yeah. Nobody with a sensible grasp of the game is saying England are now world beaters but they've taken some steps in the right direction and caught the cricketing public's imagination for a few moments.
		
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Yep spot on - Bell , Ballance , Cook , Stokes and Cook have all got tons in the last 4 tests and all have the ability to pile on the runs 

I said it a while back - I don't think the Ashes is far from a forgone conclusion just yet - but work still needs to be done


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## Tongo (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Easy to look happy when things are going well as they did today. Think the real test will come when in the next match and NZ will come back fiercely and Australia won't be so loose in their batting and won't let England escape from a 30-4 situation
		
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England in all likelihood will lose to Australia and will probably lose comfortably. But they arent going to go from the shambles in the Caribbean to world beaters in four months. They dont have a great number of quality players whilst too many of those they do have are heading toward the end of their careers. But what can you do? England can't magic up half a dozen world class performers overnight. But lets at least enjoy a day when its come good and England played entertaining, attacking cricket. Cos there could be some very rum days ahead.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep spot on - Bell , Ballance , Cook , Stokes and Cook have all got tons in the last 4 tests and all have the ability to pile on the runs 

I said it a while back - I don't think the Ashes is far from a forgone conclusion just yet - but work still needs to be done
		
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Take out Bell's century and what were his scores in the last six or seven innings including Lords. Very poor and I am not convinced he's in good enough form to warrant a place at the moment and think the Aussies have worked him out


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Yeah. Nobody with a sensible grasp of the game is saying England are now world beaters but they've taken some steps in the right direction and caught the cricketing public's imagination for a few moments.
		
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Hear! hear!!

As is usual they are not as bad as some have painted them but neither are they (yet) as good as some might like to believe.

The Aussies are still clear favourites for the Ashes but I don't think it will be as one-sided as some predict.


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## richart (May 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Take out Bell's century and what were his scores in the last six or seven innings including Lords. Very poor and I am not convinced he's in good enough form to warrant a place at the moment and think the Aussies have worked him out
		
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So you drop Bell who scored 143 against Windies last month, and replace him with who ? he averages 45 for England, is certainly not too old, and just happens to have quite a good record against Australia at home.

you seem to be knocking England players, but not coming up with any alternatives. we beat a decent New Zealand team, but you want to change half the team. Yes we are struggling for a spinner, but  there are not any alternatives. Rashid could not get in the team in the Windies which seems to indicate he was bowling poorly in practice.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

richart said:



			So you drop Bell who scored 143 against Windies last month, and replace him with who ? he averages 45 for England, is certainly not too old, and just happens to have quite a good record against Australia at home.

you seem to be knocking England players, but not coming up with any alternatives. we beat a decent New Zealand team, but you want to change half the team. Yes we are struggling for a spinner, but  there are not any alternatives. Rashid could not get in the team in the Windies which seems to indicate he was bowling poorly in practice.
		
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Spot on about Bell - doesn't offer alternatives because doesn't know any 

It's just continuing to trott out the same nonsense despite facts dispelling it 

Cook in abject form - yet scored a ton in the last test and followed it up with another 

New Zealand apparently we're going to pile on the runs the bowl is out within a day and game over

Slating the openers despite one getting 160 and the other in his second innings - saying no back up to Broad and Anderson just as Stokes rips through the middle order to turn the game in our favour 

Still having a go at Cooks captaincy whilst we won and critising Stokes bowling as he wins the game 

And finally putting the win firmly down to poor NZ batting disrespecting the great play of both teams especially the England bowlers from sat morning 

Tongo said colours were firmly nailed to the mast before the test but fair play he held hand up and said he got it wrong - others continue to dig the hole 

It's going to be a cracking summer of cricket and England will surprise and keep a few quiet 

In other news Trevor Bayliss looks like will be the new coach


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Spot on about Bell - doesn't offer alternatives because doesn't know any 

It's just continuing to trott out the same nonsense despite facts dispelling it 

Cook in abject form - yet scored a ton in the last test and followed it up with another 

New Zealand apparently we're going to pile on the runs the bowl is out within a day and game over

Slating the openers despite one getting 160 and the other in his second innings - saying no back up to Broad and Anderson just as Stokes rips through the middle order to turn the game in our favour 

Still having a go at Cooks captaincy whilst we won and critising Stokes bowling as he wins the game 

And finally putting the win firmly down to poor NZ batting disrespecting the great play of both teams especially the England bowlers from sat morning 

Tongo said colours were firmly nailed to the mast before the test but fair play he held hand up and said he got it wrong - others continue to dig the hole 

It's going to be a cracking summer of cricket and England will surprise and keep a few quiet 

In other news Trevor Bayliss looks like will be the new coach
		
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The only possible alternative to Bell would have been to bring Pietersen back and now that has been put to bed there doesn't seem to be a viable alternative. To be clear I don't think they should bring KP back in place of Bell as I think Bell will come good again but equally I don't think they should have closed the door on a return for KP *IF* he continued to score big runs in county cricket.

Cook had been in pretty poor form but whatever he has done in practise/nets seems to be working and it is good to see him back looking more like the player that was scoring runs for fun for several series. still not convinced by his captaincy but lack of alternatives means there is no obvious alternative. Didn't see much of the morning session as was at the park with the kids but during the lunch interval they were questioning Cook having a 3rd man instead of an extra catcher when NZ were 12-3. It's easy to be positive when the opposition are 5 down and have no chance of winning. A lot more difficult to set a competitive declaration total and attack from the start. This isn't purely a criticism of Cook as I'm sure it's a management team decision. 

Didn't see either of Lyth's innings so no idea of whether he is international quality or not. Would have liked to see Hales given in a go in test cricket but need to stick with Lyth and give him a chance now he's been selected. I'm as critical of England as anyone but can't see any obvious changes to the top 6 at present.

The win wasn't solely down to poor NZ batting although that did play a part. 

Stokes didn't "rip through the middle order". He took two wickets in two balls that turned things in our favour and did bowl very well in the 2nd innings. With a bit more luck his bowling figures in the 1st innings would have been a lot better as well.

There are no obvious changes that could be made to the current team, unless a miracle spinner can be found in the next few weeks, and they have done very well to win this match from being 8-1 with the bookies after the 2nd day but let's not get carried away and think that everything is great after just one match.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

The commentators spent half hour trying to find something to slate Cook about - they have nailed their colours to the mast 

Sad state when the opposition captain is more positive about England than the pundits and fans


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

Trevor Bayliss confirmed as England coach. Looking forward to see if he brings anything new to the side, or has any ideas in regards to the short forms of the game. Exciting times for English Cricket!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Trevor Bayliss confirmed as England coach. Looking forward to see if he brings anything new to the side, or has any ideas in regards to the short forms of the game. Exciting times for English Cricket!
		
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Has done very well for ODI and T20 teams - got a good Shield record - worked well with Farbrace in the past 

Seems at first look that they have looked at his ODI record which is good and hopefully can develop the longer game as well - still don't think it's right for us to have an Aussie in charge


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

I'm not really bothered what nationality he is, as long as he makes us as good as we can be. The players are there to be a good One Day team, they just need to pick them, and be coached into the correct way of thinking, to be encouraged to have no fear. Excited to see how he gets on and what he brings to the side!

In regards to the One Day team, who would you pick? Personally, I would go with:

Hales
Ali
Stokes
Taylor
Root *
Buttler
Billings +
Jordan
Tredwell
Wood
Anderson

Give Stokes license and responsibility at number 3, same with Buttler at 6. Let him focus on his batting in One Dayers and give the gloves to the impressive Billings. The side has depth in batting with Jordan at 8, but also depth in bowling with Anderson, Wood, Jordan, Stokes, Tredwell and Ali all front-line bowling options. I would have KP at 4, but I'm being realistic, that isn't happening anytime soon, so we have to move on without him, and Taylor is a very capable top-order bat. Just needs to be given confidence that his place is secure, so he can play the free-flowing, attacking game he plays for Notts. Root also has to be given the captaincy, he's the natural successor to Cook in the Test format, so should be given the chance to impress in Limited Overs cricket. Thoughts?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has done very well for ODI and T20 teams - got a good Shield record - worked well with Farbrace in the past 

Seems at first look that they have looked at his ODI record which is good and hopefully can develop the longer game as well - still don't think it's right for us to have an Aussie in charge
		
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We have had two Zimbabweans so why not an Aussie after all there is hardly a queue of likely English candidates.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			We have had two Zimbabweans so why not an Aussie after all there is hardly a queue of likely English candidates.
		
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because the rivalry between Australia and England is a touch different the between England and Zimbabwe 

Don't think an Aussie should ever been in charge of the England team just I have no doubt Australie would never appoint an Englishman


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			because the rivalry between Australia and England is a touch different the between England and Zimbabwe 

Don't think an Aussie should ever been in charge of the England team just I have no doubt Australie would never appoint an Englishman
		
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But he is coach not captain or a player. Motivational side of preparation for cricket, particularly five day Tests, is different to football and the coach's role is entirely different to the England football manager.

The coach is a facilitator rather than a motivator and is not really in charge of the team. That is the captain's role.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			But he is coach not captain or a player. Motivational side of preparation for cricket, particularly five day Tests, is different to football and the coach's role is entirely different to the England football manager.

The coach is a facilitator rather than a motivator and is not really in charge of the team. That is the captain's role.
		
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Again - doesn't change my opinion that I don't believe an Aussie should be in charge of the England cricket team - Australia would never appoint someone from England


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

David Saker has been involved in the England set-up for quite a while, he's an Aussie, as was Troy Cooley who did a really good job as bowling coach. I'm not worried about him being Australian. Doesn't really matter, he's a professional, he's going to try and make England as good as he possibly can.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - doesn't change my opinion that I don't believe an Aussie should be in charge of the England cricket team - Australia would never appoint someone from England
		
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You are missing the point.

He will not be *in charge* of the England team. That is the job of the captain.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 26, 2015)

richart said:



			So you drop Bell who scored 143 against Windies last month, and replace him with who ? he averages 45 for England, is certainly not too old, and just happens to have quite a good record against Australia at home.

you seem to be knocking England players, but not coming up with any alternatives. we beat a decent New Zealand team, but you want to change half the team. Yes we are struggling for a spinner, but  there are not any alternatives. Rashid could not get in the team in the Windies which seems to indicate he was bowling poorly in practice.
		
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Take out the Bell century and look at his last 7-8 test innings other than that. Hardly a man on the top of his game


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Take out the Bell century and look at his last 7-8 test innings other than that. Hardly a man on the top of his game
		
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OK. As Rich said who is your nominated alternative?


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## gazr99 (May 26, 2015)

As I know this thread will be seen by cricket fans, former South Africa all-rounder Andrew Hall is hosting a pre-ashes dinner to celebrate his career in Northampton on 3rd July. Details in the picture below


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			You are missing the point.

He will not be *in charge* of the England team. That is the job of the captain.
		
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Really are pushing the boundaries of semantics 

Bayliss will be the head coach of England - Just like Andy Flowers and Moores before him they ran the England cricket team and Bayliss will - the head coach is pretty much the guy ruling the teams - it's that way all over the world 

I don't believe an Aussie should have that role - just as my Aussie mate believes a "Pom" shouldn't ever have the Aussie equivalent - the rivalry is too strong and it's just my opinion


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			OK. As Rich said who is your nominated alternative?
		
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Bell's contribution on Saturday evening whilst not a lot of runs was vital and was another role that helped us win the match -


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really are pushing the boundaries of semantics 

Bayliss will be the head coach of England - Just like Andy Flowers and Moores before him they ran the England cricket team and Bayliss will - the head coach is pretty much the guy ruling the teams - it's that way all over the world 

I don't believe an Aussie should have that role - just as my Aussie mate believes a "Pom" shouldn't ever have the Aussie equivalent - the rivalry is too strong and it's just my opinion
		
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Under the new set up I think you will find that it is "Straussy" who is running the England cricket team. After all since when in England did the coach pick the team. 

He may be consulted but he won't be picking the team, that will remain with the selectors and "Straussy".


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bell's contribution on Saturday evening whilst not a lot of runs was vital and was another role that helped us win the match -
		
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Agreed and I am still awaiting Homer's suggestion as a replacement.

FWIW I have seen Ian Bell develop right through from a kid and I am a big fan (despite him supporting the Villa!). I do think his career is now entering its twilight stage but until a valid alternative comes along England should stick with him.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Agreed and I am still awaiting Homer's suggestion as a replacement.

FWIW I have seen Ian Bell develop right through from a kid and I am a big fan (despite him supporting the Villa!). I do think his career is now entering its twilight stage but until a valid alternative comes along England should stick with him.
		
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You won't get an answer - the only viable player right now would be Taylor IMO but I would prefer to stick with Bell


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I'm not really bothered what nationality he is, as long as he makes us as good as we can be. The players are there to be a good One Day team, they just need to pick them, and be coached into the correct way of thinking, to be encouraged to have no fear. Excited to see how he gets on and what he brings to the side!

In regards to the One Day team, who would you pick? Personally, I would go with:

Hales
Ali
Stokes
Taylor
Root *
Buttler
Billings +
Jordan
Tredwell
Wood
Anderson

Give Stokes license and responsibility at number 3, same with Buttler at 6. Let him focus on his batting in One Dayers and give the gloves to the impressive Billings. The side has depth in batting with Jordan at 8, but also depth in bowling with Anderson, Wood, Jordan, Stokes, Tredwell and Ali all front-line bowling options. I would have KP at 4, but I'm being realistic, that isn't happening anytime soon, so we have to move on without him, and Taylor is a very capable top-order bat. Just needs to be given confidence that his place is secure, so he can play the free-flowing, attacking game he plays for Notts. Root also has to be given the captaincy, he's the natural successor to Cook in the Test format, so should be given the chance to impress in Limited Overs cricket. Thoughts?
		
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Hales
Ali
Taylor
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Overton
Rashid 
Wood

Taylor/Morgan as skipper


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

Which Overton? Craig or Jamie? I actually forgot someone who I'd put in my team. In place of Wood, I'd pick Lewis Gregory, amazed he doesn't have more people talking about him. Is tearing it up on one of the flattest pitches in England, and gives it a whack with the bat! You'd pick Rashid over Tredwell in One Dayers? That's an interesting shout!

So I'd go with:

Hales
Ali
Stokes
Taylor
Root *
Buttler
Billings +
Jordan
Gregory
Tredwell
Anderson

There's quite a few options really if you were forced to get rid of Bell. Taylor, Vince, Hales and Hildreth could all do a job, as could Pietersen, but he won't get picked. Loads of excellent batsmen knocking about County Cricket. None of them better than Bell though, as he proves every time he goes back and plays for Warwickshire. He might be in the middle of a low-patch (though at least he's still contributing big scores every now and then), but he's still one of the top 2 or 3 batsmen in the country, and had an excellent series last time the Aussies were here.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Which Overton? Craig or Jamie? I actually forgot someone who I'd put in my team. In place of Wood, I'd pick Lewis Gregory, amazed he doesn't have more people talking about him. Is tearing it up on one of the flattest pitches in England, and gives it a whack with the bat! You'd pick Rashid over Tredwell in One Dayers? That's an interesting shout!

So I'd go with:

Hales
Ali
Stokes
Taylor
Root *
Buttler
Billings +
Jordan
Gregory
Tredwell
Anderson

There's quite a few options really if you were forced to get rid of Bell. Taylor, Vince, Hales and Hildreth could all do a job, as could Pietersen, but he won't get picked. Loads of excellent batsmen knocking about County Cricket. None of them better than Bell though, as he proves every time he goes back and plays for Warwickshire. He might be in the middle of a low-patch (though at least he's still contributing big scores every now and then), but he's still one of the top 2 or 3 batsmen in the country, and had an excellent series last time the Aussies were here.
		
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Right now Craig is the one playing better and prob deserves a crack - Jamie though I believe is a better player - quicker and more hostile 

Gregory isn't a bad shout - needs to find consistency 

Yes KP won't get picked no matter how many times you say it 

Too late for Hildreath , Hales isn't a number 4 , Vince I think just lacks that something extra. Taylor I believe will take over from Bell


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

Gregory needs to find consistency but Craig Overton doesn't? Gregory didn't have the best LA season last season, but even so took more wickets in 8 games than Overton has in his whole career. He's also averaging sub-28 in all 3 formats, Overton averages 54 in OD cricket and 61 in T20. He's not even the best bowler in his family, let alone at Somerset. Certainly wouldn't trust an attack that features Overton, Woakes, and Rashid to be economical and take wickets. 

Hales bats 3 for Notts, not a big difference to batting 4 really. Vince has been AWESOME for Hampshire the last few years, and should really be next in line. He scores his runs quickly, is averaging over 60 in his last 2 FC seasons scoring 9 hundreds. He is also excellent across all formats of the game, and has a brilliant cricketing brain, as he's proved as Hampshire skipper. What exactly is he lacking?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Gregory needs to find consistency but Craig Overton doesn't? Gregory didn't have the best LA season last season, but even so took more wickets in 8 games than Overton has in his whole career. He's also averaging sub-28 in all 3 formats, Overton averages 54 in OD cricket and 61 in T20. He's not even the best bowler in his family, let alone at Somerset. Certainly wouldn't trust an attack that features Overton, Woakes, and Rashid to be economical and take wickets. 

Hales bats 3 for Notts, not a big difference to batting 4 really. Vince has been AWESOME for Hampshire the last few years, and should really be next in line. He scores his runs quickly, is averaging over 60 in his last 2 FC seasons scoring 9 hundreds. He is also excellent across all formats of the game, and has a brilliant cricketing brain, as he's proved as Hampshire skipper. What exactly is he lacking?
		
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Did you not read the bit where I said Jamie is a better player ? But Craig is playing better right now hence his call up to the Lions and Jamie missing out - in the end Jamie will be the one that shines through 

And seen Gregory bowl far too many loose balls and be smacked all over the place - the stats as always don't tell the full story


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

I read that bit, but I also read the bit where you picked a bloke who has 10 domestic One Day wickets for the England One Day International team. No way he's ready for that stage. Gregory is, hence his call-up for the Ireland ODi squad. I know some guys that watch a lot of Somerset, and they rate Gregory as one of the most talented youngsters in the country. I've also seen him bat, and he gives the ball an almighty whack. and his hundred against Durham last year was a fantastic display of hitting. The stats don't tell the whole story, but he must be doing something right to be picking up so many wickets on a flat deck like Taunton in all formats of the game!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I read that bit, but I also read the bit where you picked a bloke who has 10 domestic One Day wickets for the England One Day International team. No way he's ready for that stage. Gregory is, hence his call-up for the Ireland ODi squad. I know some guys that watch a lot of Somerset, and they rate Gregory as one of the most talented youngsters in the country. I've also seen him bat, and he gives the ball an almighty whack. and his hundred against Durham last year was a fantastic display of hitting. The stats don't tell the whole story, but he must be doing something right to be picking up so many wickets on a flat deck like Taunton in all formats of the game!
		
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I spent four years at Somerset Academy and my brother currently is a fitness coach for the Academy - it's the Overtans that has everyone excited


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

It's Gregory that's taking wickets and hitting hundreds


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			It's Gregory that's taking wickets and hitting hundreds 

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Hundred - single only had the one ton 

But remember I haven't said he is a bad player just had issues with consistency with the ball in hand at times - improved a lot over the last 3 months of last summer


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Whilst I agree that stats don't always tell the whole story it is concerning that so many of us make judgements based on perceptions.

Like most I would say that McCullum is a far superior ODI batsmen compared with Bell and yet, whilst he has played over 80 more ODI's McCullum has only scored nearly 400 more runs and has an average of 30 compared with Bell's 37.

True his Strike Rate is 94 against 77 but I must admit to being amazed by the figures. Not suggesting that Bell is a better ODI bat than McCullum but it just goes to show that perceptions as well as stats can be misleading.


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

To be fair to McCullum he does average 35 since 2008, and has a strike rate over 100 with 5 hundreds.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			To be fair to McCullum he does average 35 since 2008, and has a strike rate over 100 with 5 hundreds.
		
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As I say I am not knocking him (or pushing Bell)  as I think he is a terrific entertainer.

I was merely saying that we can all, at times, be misled by the media and the images and the resulting perceptions that are created.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Stats can be used to enhance reputations etc but nothing beats seeing the person play 

Bopara is the prime example - on paper he looked good but he could never score runs when needed - guarantee that he would score during a lost cause


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

Ravi is the most frustrating cricketer I've ever watched. I've seen him play some of the most amazing innings I've ever seen. He hit a T20 (or OD, can't quite remember which format) hundred for Essex which was just unbelievably awesome. He was utterly dominant and looked at ease, yet bats completely different for England. I thought he'd shown how good he could be against the West Indies in 2009, but never maintained that expectation. Gutted he didn't kick on and hold down a Test spot, he had the talent, one of the most talented players I've ever seen.

Yeah definitely. It's the same with Chris Gayle really. Has a magnificent T20 record, but his ODi record is fairly average, even his SR doesn't jump off the page like you'd expect it too. Also goes to show just how good someone like AB De Villiers is. In the same timeframe that I've used for McCullum, he has 6045 ODi runs at an average of 63, is getting them at a strike rate of 104 and has 17 hundreds. What a player.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Ravi is the most frustrating cricketer I've ever watched. I've seen him play some of the most amazing innings I've ever seen. He hit a T20 (or OD, can't quite remember which format) hundred for Essex which was just unbelievably awesome. He was utterly dominant and looked at ease, yet bats completely different for England. I thought he'd shown how good he could be against the West Indies in 2009, but never maintained that expectation. Gutted he didn't kick on and hold down a Test spot, he had the talent, one of the most talented players I've ever seen.

Yeah definitely. It's the same with Chris Gayle really. Has a magnificent T20 record, but his ODi record is fairly average, even his SR doesn't jump off the page like you'd expect it too. Also goes to show just how good someone like AB De Villiers is. In the same timeframe that I've used for McCullum, he has 6045 ODi runs at an average of 63, is getting them at a strike rate of 104 and has 17 hundreds. What a player.
		
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With Bopara I have always thought it was a confidence issue.

At Essex he is guaranteed to play so is not worried or afraid to fail. With England he has always seemed to be "looking over his shoulder" expecting to be dumped if he failed. Some players can take their County confidence with them to the  England team whilst others can't.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

Bopara was given so many chances - in fact it was poor the amount of chances they gave him whilst others were given and then out - he was found out early and should have been left on the sidelines instead of constantly being picked


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## Dan2501 (May 26, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			With Bopara I have always thought it was a confidence issue.

At Essex he is guaranteed to play so is not worried or afraid to fail. With England he has always seemed to be "looking over his shoulder" expecting to be dumped if he failed. Some players can take their County confidence with them to the  England team whilst others can't.
		
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Yeah, that fear of failure and being replaced has hurt a lot of top quality cricketers. Ravi Bopara should have had an England career as long as Ian Bell's, but either a lack of mental strength, or lack of belief/faith from the England management, maybe a combination of both prevented that. I've not seen many guys hit the ball as cleanly as Ravi Bopara. Those Test hundreds he scored against the West Indies were just a tiny insight in to what he could have achieved. I'm not surprised they kept picking him, there were so many flashes of brilliance, and I bet he looked a million dollars in practice, he just couldn't maintain it over a long enough period to sustain the career he should have had.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

They have a poll on SSN in regards an Aussie getting the top job in English cricket - 60% say it's ok - 40% obviously say it shouldn't be an Aussie


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2015)

Good days cricket - good start from England then good response from New Zealand and then good finish from England


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2015)

Would have been a lot better if we'd held catches. I thought one of the LBW's looked nailed on too.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2015)

Have slated Cook previously over his negativity but thought he tried to be positive today with up to 5 slips in at times. He was badly let down by the bowlers though which seems a strange thing to say having taken 8 wickets in the day. Yes there were a lot of good balls bowled but to let the opposition hit nearly 50 boundaries in the day shows that there was a lot of rubbish bowled as well.


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## Dan2501 (May 29, 2015)

New Zealand don't hang around do they! Certainly not going to bore us with bat or ball. Been a great series so far.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

NZ plundered a good 30 extra runs this morning but solid start from the openers

On another note - great to see Gayle smashing the ball everywhere for Somerset last night :whoo:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

Well done to Cook - top English run scorer 

Great opening partnership building today

The doubters becoming quieter and quieter - notice Boycott has been quiet lately - just waiting for the waste of space that is Bob Willis to say something positive


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

Quality from Lyth ! Battling first test ton :whoo:


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## richart (May 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quality from Lyth ! Battling first test ton :whoo:
		
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 Yes, but it took him three innings.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

richart said:



			Yes, but it took him three innings.

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Very true rich - should have been dumped after one test


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## richart (May 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very true rich - should have been dumped after one test 

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 Spot on.:thup:


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## Tongo (May 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quality from Lyth ! Battling first test ton :whoo:
		
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Pleased for him. Was ridiculous there were some questioning his place after just one test!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Pleased for him. Was ridiculous there were some questioning his place after just one test!
		
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A lot of the stuff said around the KP mayhem was ridiculous 

A lot seemed to judge the test side on the performances of the ODI - there was always going to be a confidence issues after the WC but the main change that needed to be done was Moores going - too much reliance on stats


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

Good century by Lyth and shame it ended with a run out. Have to say the NZ bowling hasn't been that great. England were much better at keeping it pitched up and letting the Headingly swing do the rest.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

NZ not helped by four front line bowlers either.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

New ball does the trick for NZ - three quick wickets 

Need Bell and Buttler to dig in now


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

250-5 and not so good. Perhaps all those posts about England turning a corner too hasty as a minor mid order collapse with the second new ball (not for the first time) leaving us a long way behind still and the tail to come


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## pokerjoke (May 30, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			250-5 and not so good. Perhaps all those posts about England turning a corner too hasty as a minor mid order collapse with the second new ball (not for the first time) leaving us a long way behind still and the tail to come
		
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I cant actually work out wether you like cricket or not.

I cant actually work out if you support England or you just want something bad to happen so you can post about it and slate individuals.


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## fundy (May 30, 2015)

Its really quite boring, try taking a longer term view than posting based on what happened in the previous hour or two and claiming that provides the evidence for your view point.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			I cant actually work out wether you like cricket or not.

I cant actually work out if you support England or you just want something bad to happen so you can post about it and slate individuals.
		
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I like cricket. However several on here so quick to laud plaudits (rightly on Lyth's maiden century and Cook looking back to form) and thinking we've turned a corner but we are still capable of imploding and collapsing. That's the main difference between a top side like Australia and SA who don't do this on a regular basis. I still think England are a long way from being at the top level of test cricket.


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## User20205 (May 30, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I like cricket. However several on here so quick to laud plaudits (rightly on Lyth's maiden century and Cook looking back to form) and thinking we've turned a corner but we are still capable of imploding and collapsing. That's the main difference between a top side like Australia and SA who don't do this on a regular basis. I still think England are a long way from being at the top level of test cricket.
		
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They're right homer, for a fella that's supposed to be glass half full...you're a negative so & so.

Every pub has a bar room expert on every sport, the forum isn't short of em


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

therod said:



			They're right homer, for a fella that's supposed to be glass half full...you're a negative so & so.

Every pub has a bar room expert on every sport, the forum isn't short of em

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Who said I'm glass half full. Trying to be positive about my golf, not something that comes easily, but never portrayed myself as anything at all. Not too fussed whether I'm perceived as negative or not. I'll give my opinion as I see it


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## pokerjoke (May 30, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I like cricket. However several on here so quick to laud plaudits (rightly on Lyth's maiden century and Cook looking back to form) and thinking we've turned a corner but we are still capable of imploding and collapsing. That's the main difference between a top side like Australia and SA who don't do this on a regular basis. I still think England are a long way from being at the top level of test cricket.
		
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And some by which I mean you are too quick to criticise.

Of course we can collapse at times but we play world class teams who have world class bowlers.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			And some by which I mean you are too quick to criticise.

Of course we can collapse at times but we play world class teams who have world class bowlers.
		
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We play world class teams with world class bowlers...West Indies? The better sides seem to find a way to avoid collapses on such a regular basis. That's the very simple point I'm making. NZ are only fielding four bowlers as well


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## Tongo (May 30, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We play world class teams with world class bowlers...West Indies? The better sides seem to find a way to avoid collapses on such a regular basis. That's the very simple point I'm making. *NZ are only fielding four bowlers as well*

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Two of those 4 bowlers are currently in the form of their lives in conditions very familiar to them whilst Matt Henry clearly has a big future in front of him. NZ's three pacemen are a quality trio.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Two of those 4 bowlers are currently in the form of their lives in conditions very familiar to them whilst Matt Henry clearly has a big future in front of him. NZ's three pacemen are a quality trio.
		
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They are and will get better. However not a patch on the Aussie and SA front line bowlers yet. Of course conditions and a pitch will make or break a bowlers performance match by match


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Two of those 4 bowlers are currently in the form of their lives in conditions very familiar to them whilst Matt Henry clearly has a big future in front of him. NZ's three pacemen are a quality trio.
		
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Think Boult is either 3rd or 4th in the rankings and Southee was in top ten as well until this test


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/ranking/test/bowling/


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## Tongo (May 30, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			They are and will get better. However not a patch on the Aussie and SA front line bowlers yet. Of course conditions and a pitch will make or break a bowlers performance match by match
		
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Nobody said they were. But they are a decent test for those upcoming series. Unfortunately, England cant really play bowling of the same standard offered by Australia and SA until they play......Australia and SA. (Not sure how they can rectify that) 

In truth, England are highly unlikely to win the Ashes but at least they are heading in the right direction.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 30, 2015)

fundy said:



			Its really quite boring, try taking a longer term view than posting based on what happened in the previous hour or two and claiming that provides the evidence for your view point.
		
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Trouble is everyone does it, both from a positive and a negative point.

Until today Lyth was a failure and Stokes a world-beater.

 Neither is true and we should give all players a chance to develop and stop putting unrealistic expectations upon them.

At the moment whilst I still do not rate Cook as a captain I think the Test side is showing promise yet will probably get beaten by the Aussies but so what. Let's look at the bigger picture and the long term.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Trouble is everyone does it, both from a positive and a negative point.

Until today Lyth was a failure and Stokes a world-beater.

 Neither is true and we should give all players a chance to develop and stop putting unrealistic expectations upon them.

At the moment whilst I still do not rate Cook as a captain I think the Test side is showing promise yet will probably get beaten by the Aussies but so what. Let's look at the bigger picture and the long term.
		
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Before the first test and around the KP incident every single England player bar Root was written - we were going to get a beating from New Zealand and then a thrashing in the Ashes - just as much in this thread as in the media by the experts - a lot have swallowed their own words but there is a long way to go 

There is no reason why we can't beat the Aussies in the Ashes - it won't be as one sided as predicted and if we can find a spinner then we would be pretty evenly matched in England


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## Dan2501 (May 30, 2015)

I'll admit I didn't give us a hope against New Zealand, but am very pleased to have been proven wrong. Cook looks back to form and his captaincy on the final day of the last Test was excellent, Lyth has come in and looked the part today (amazed people were writing him off after one Test in the first place), Root has continued his good form, Stokes has been a revelation, and the bowling has been very good, particularly the seam bowling. Very positive signs, and with a new coach on the way in, it could very well turn out to be a good summer for England. I'm impressed, they've turned things around very nicely after a turgid performance in the West Indies. Hopefully Ian Bell can tick himself off the cut list tomorrow with a vital big score and get his form back, if we're going to beat the Aussies, we need an in-form Bell!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			I'll admit I didn't give us a hope against New Zealand, but am very pleased to have been proven wrong. Cook looks back to form and his captaincy on the final day of the last Test was excellent, Lyth has come in and looked the part today (amazed people were writing him off after one Test in the first place), Root has continued his good form, Stokes has been a revelation, and the bowling has been very good, particularly the seam bowling. Very positive signs, and with a new coach on the way in, it could very well turn out to be a good summer for England. I'm impressed, they've turned things around very nicely after a turgid performance in the West Indies. Hopefully Ian Bell can tick himself off the cut list tomorrow with a vital big score and get his form back, if we're going to beat the Aussies, we need an in-form Bell!
		
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We need Bell to stay around if we're to get anywhere near the NZ first innings total and he'll have plenty of time to bat himself out of the rut he's in


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

Another great morning of test cricket - superb bowling from NZ but a great counter attack from tailenders.

NZ will have a small lead going into the second innings


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## Tongo (May 31, 2015)

These have been 2 very even, intriguing test matches. England playing more positive cricket, NZ again demonstrating that they get the very most out of a small pool of talent. Fair play to them. The next 2 sessions will be crucial.


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

cracking test match going on, and even as a purist part me of me would like to be watching  Gayle trying to help Zummerset chase down to 240 at Taunton. Hes got 90 already, another 50 or so and he'll get them home


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			cracking test match going on, and even as a purist part me of me would like to be watching  Gayle trying to help Zummerset chase down to 240 at Taunton. Hes got 90 already, another 50 or so and he'll get them home
		
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Going to end up short it looks like - amazing innings though


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Going to end up short it looks like - amazing innings though
		
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hes got stuck at the non strikers end most of the last 3 overs, need 40 off 2 now! not impossible though


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			hes got stuck at the non strikers end most of the last 3 overs, need 40 off 2 now! not impossible though
		
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Boundaries short enough for him


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boundaries short enough for him 

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he reportedly hit one over the botham stand that cleared the river behind the stand and carried on down the road behind it lol


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			he reportedly hit one over the botham stand that cleared the river behind the stand and carried on down the road behind it lol
		
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Blimey !!!! Thats massive - Pollard didnt even do that when he was at Taunton :rofl:


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

2 more 6s in a row, 27 off 8 and still alive lol


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			2 more 6s in a row, 27 off 8 and still alive lol
		
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Gayle has 129 :rofl:


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

make that 6646 17 needed off the last but hes not on strike


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			make that 6646 17 needed off the last but hes not on strike
		
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Thats just ridiculous :rofl:


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

lol, tanvir caught on boundary and gayle doesnt cross


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			lol, tanvir caught on boundary and gayle doesnt cross
		
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16 from 4 balls needed


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

dropped gayle with 3 balls to go


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			dropped gayle with 3 balls to go 

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10 from 2 

Dot ball - game over


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Kent win


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

last ball for 6, gayle gets 150 and on the losing side


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Kent win
		
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That is some phenomenal scoring - Kent lad getting 114 of 58 but then Gayle getting 151 of 61 !!!


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

151 not out off 62 balls including 15 6s and 10 4s.

such a shame thats not been on tv


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			151 not out off 62 balls including 15 6s and 10 4s.

such a shame thats not been on tv
		
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Full House in Taunton again - he is certainly bringing the crowds in.


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Full House in Taunton again - he is certainly bringing the crowds in.
		
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If you arent going to turn up to watch him there then youre not going at all! Frustrating the ECB arent ensuring there is coverage of these games, at least online, same old same old outdated approach from the ECB though, dont know why I expect better


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

brilliant tweet from Joe Denly lol

Joe Denly @joed1986
Note to self: DO NOT DROP CHRIS GAYLE ON 40!!!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			If you arent going to turn up to watch him there then youre not going at all! Frustrating the ECB arent ensuring there is coverage of these games, at least online, same old same old outdated approach from the ECB though, dont know why I expect better
		
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Is it the ECB though ?

Or part of the Sky contract ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it the ECB though ?

Or part of the Sky contract ?
		
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well on the basis the ECB agreed the sky contract and its their product then ultimately its the ECB yes. They may have made it hard from themselves with the sky contract though I agree (greed far more likely than common sense wouldve been used in the contract stage no doubt)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			well on the basis the ECB agreed the sky contract and its their product then ultimately its the ECB yes. They may have made it hard from themselves with the sky contract though I agree (greed far more likely than common sense wouldve been used in the contract stage no doubt)
		
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Its an expensive production to broadcast from every game online mate - that would cost a lot more including commentaries etc 

And its possibly something they would look at in the future contracts - this year they are broadcasting 10 more games than they did last year,


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its an expensive production to broadcast from every game online mate - that would cost a lot more including commentaries etc 

And its possibly something they would look at in the future contracts - this year they are broadcasting 10 more games than they did last year,
		
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Commentaries are already in place (hence I listened to Gayles innings on the radio), the extra infrastructure not really that much, 4 fixed cameras be enough to see the majority.

Not sure if you saw the survey that the ECB did about county cricket, but they were provided with lots and lots of excellent ideas and have pretty much ignored everyone of them and instead chosen to do as the county charimen have asked, yet again, even though its not beneficial to English cricket or the England cricket team


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Commentaries are already in place (hence I listened to Gayles innings on the radio), the extra infrastructure not really that much, 4 fixed cameras be enough to see the majority.
		
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My wife works for the company that does it all - it does cost a lot more - was it Sky commentaries you listened too or 5 Live or Somerset Radio ?

You cant have fixed cameras at a cricket venue for a match - all have to be manned to get the action.




			Not sure if you saw the survey that the ECB did about county cricket, but they were provided with lots and lots of excellent ideas and have pretty much ignored everyone of them and instead chosen to do as the county charimen have asked, yet again, even though its not beneficial to English cricket or the England cricket team
		
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I have no idea what the ideas were in regards country cricket. 

I know there was talk of franchise and reducing the amount of counties playing - but thats destroys the game imo


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

My wife works for the company that does it all - it does cost a lot more - was it Sky commentaries you listened too or 5 Live or Somerset Radio ?

_Was listening to bbc somerset i think this afternoon, usually pick up the commentaries via the bbc website or dab radio_


You cant have fixed cameras at a cricket venue for a match - all have to be manned to get the action.

_Thats what they use for the county games highlights and then add one manned camera, would be more than plenty and you get to see almost all the main action_

I have no idea what the ideas were in regards country cricket. 

I know there was talk of franchise and reducing the amount of counties playing - but thats destroys the game imo

_were many ideas regarding what tournaments to play, the make up of them etc but ultimately only small changes were made and they were made to suit the counties and not the hundreds of thousands of fans who responded. like you im not a huge franchise fan, at least not in the format it has been provided to date_


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			My wife works for the company that does it all - it does cost a lot more - was it Sky commentaries you listened too or 5 Live or Somerset Radio ?

_Was listening to bbc somerset i think this afternoon, usually pick up the commentaries via the bbc website or dab radio_


You cant have fixed cameras at a cricket venue for a match - all have to be manned to get the action.

_Thats what they use for the county games highlights and then add one manned camera, would be more than plenty and you get to see almost all the main action_

I have no idea what the ideas were in regards country cricket. 

I know there was talk of franchise and reducing the amount of counties playing - but thats destroys the game imo

_were many ideas regarding what tournaments to play, the make up of them etc but ultimately only small changes were made and they were made to suit the counties and not the hundreds of thousands of fans who responded. like you im not a huge franchise fan, at least not in the format it has been provided to date_

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What needs to happen is BBC get involved more beyond radio - again it costs a lot - The fixed cameras still need a full crew on site - 

In county games the action isnt all round the park like T20 - today 4 fixed cameras wouldnt have picked up enough of seeing the bal sailing all over the park

What other ideas for changing the tournaments were suggested if you can remember ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Meanwhile in the test New Zealand are heading towards a very commanding position, though I expect the weather will play a part in whether they manage to force victory in the next couple of days (especially if we lose some play). If they get some overhead conditions with the new ball then England are going to find it mighty tough 

Bit more evidence this afternoon that Ali is far from the answer as the mainline spinner for me too, just doesnt offer enough of a threat at this level for me and ultimately this is an area Australia will look to expose later in the summer


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Meanwhile in the test New Zealand are heading towards a very commanding position, though I expect the weather will play a part in whether they manage to force victory in the next couple of days (especially if we lose some play). If they get some overhead conditions with the new ball then England are going to find it mighty tough 

*Bit more evidence this afternoon that Ali is far from the answer as the mainline spinner for me too, just doesnt offer enough of a threat at this level for me and ultimately this is an area Australia will look to expose later in the summer*

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Yep he is a problem - nowhere near good enough to be mainline spinner - he is just tossing them up waiting for them to be slapped

Another good counter attack from NZ today - tomorrow could be a cracking days cricket


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What needs to happen is BBC get involved more beyond radio - again it costs a lot - The fixed cameras still need a full crew on site - 

In county games the action isnt all round the park like T20 - today 4 fixed cameras wouldnt have picked up enough of seeing the bal sailing all over the park

What other ideas for changing the tournaments were suggested if you can remember ?
		
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A lot was around how they structure whats played and when. Its currently done to maximise revenue for the counties rather than provide the best viewing options for fans.

Was proposals to change the structure of the 40/50 over comp (as well as discussion over how many overs to play) so that sides played proper sides throughout rather than there being lots of dead games and players rested. Most fans wanted the T20 comp played in one go, the counties prefer it spread over the year. Fans wanted game starting on weekends, the counties preferring the old option of starting midweek (aimed at corporate market more). Was lots of other bits but cant remember that much


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			A lot was around how they structure whats played and when. Its currently done to maximise revenue for the counties rather than provide the best viewing options for fans.

Was proposals to change the structure of the 40/50 over comp (as well as discussion over how many overs to play) so that sides played proper sides throughout rather than there being lots of dead games and players rested. Most fans wanted the T20 comp played in one go, the counties prefer it spread over the year. Fans wanted game starting on weekends, the counties preferring the old option of starting midweek (aimed at corporate market more). Was lots of other bits but cant remember that much
		
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Can certainly see a lot of good there -

T20 does need to be played all in one go in August 
No idea what they should do with the One day stuff as its changed so many times - think one should be a straight KO
Games starting on weekends is a good idea but then the last couple days could be emoty ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can certainly see a lot of good there -

T20 does need to be played all in one go in August 
No idea what they should do with the One day stuff as its changed so many times - think one should be a straight KO
Games starting on weekends is a good idea but then the last couple days could be emoty ?
		
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should look to play more double header T20s too for me. Game 1 starts at 2pm then another one at say 7pm.

the 50 over stuff should almost go back to the sunday league format imo (how many overs is tough because 40 overs is a better game for me but you need to prepare players for ODIs which are 50)

the biggest issue with playing the t20 in a block is a) clashing with the home series tests and b) anyone needing to be called up to the test squad having not played any 1st class games for a while.

the biggest thing they need to address with the t20s for me is to get the England internationals playing in as many games as possible rather than being told to rest, you have box office guys like Buttler and Stokes and you really need to use them rather than ordering them to rest all the time


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			should look to play more double header T20s too for me. Game 1 starts at 2pm then another one at say 7pm.

the 50 over stuff should almost go back to the sunday league format imo (how many overs is tough because 40 overs is a better game for me but you need to prepare players for ODIs which are 50)

the biggest issue with playing the t20 in a block is a) clashing with the home series tests and b) anyone needing to be called up to the test squad having not played any 1st class games for a while.

the biggest thing they need to address with the t20s for me is to get the England internationals playing in as many games as possible rather than being told to rest, you have box office guys like Buttler and Stokes and you really need to use them rather than ordering them to rest all the time
		
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Cannot disagree with anyone of that - maybe have the T20 in september - weather still good ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cannot disagree with anyone of that - maybe have the T20 in september - weather still good ?
		
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Often its great but every now and then you get a bad year late on. Dont think theyd risk it that late on. Other option is you play it in chunks of a week or two, but that causes probs with getting overseas players


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Really is time that umpires call is revisited in DRS, almost every decision these days thats referred is umpires call so as a system it is not really improving the base decision. Time to stop giving umpires call decisions and either be out or not out for me. 

Been 3 lbws clipping the bails this test, how is it right that 2 are not out yet the third one is out? And the reason behind it? Thats what one of the more incompetent umpires on the circuit has guessed


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Often its great but every now and then you get a bad year late on. Dont think theyd risk it that late on. Other option is you play it in chunks of a week or two, but that causes probs with getting overseas players
		
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We need to go back to just the one test series in the summer - could then fit in T20


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We need to go back to just the one test series in the summer - could then fit in T20
		
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not a cat in hells chance the ecb go down that route, too much money from the test series


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			not a cat in hells chance the ecb go down that route, too much money from the test series
		
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Oh i know - certainly a case of trying to have it all. 

And in regards an umpires call - i believe you shouldnt lose your referral


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh i know - certainly a case of trying to have it all. 

And in regards an umpires call - i believe you shouldnt lose your referral
		
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Ive always thought that about losing the referral, but actually Im now of the view that its either out or not out and they need to remove the grey area in the middle which is basically being used to spare umpires blushes most of the time. If hawkeye has it hitting its hitting, if it has it missing its missing. Going back to the on field decision because less than half the ball is hitting really isnt helping the game for me, especially to casual observers


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Ive always thought that about losing the referral, but actually Im now of the view that its either out or not out and they need to remove the grey area in the middle which is basically being used to spare umpires blushes most of the time. If hawkeye has it hitting its hitting, if it has it missing its missing. Going back to the on field decision because less than half the ball is hitting really isnt helping the game for me, especially to casual observers
		
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Doesnt it allow for the extra leeway though ? The uncertainty of the ball going in the exact line ?

It would make it more clear cut if its out if its hitting the wickets


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesnt it allow for the extra leeway though ? The uncertainty of the ball going in the exact line ?

It would make it more clear cut if its out if its hitting the wickets
		
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supposedly so but it isnt being portrayed that way by commentators and the graphics shown can only confuse more to a casual viewer imo. what it is ensuring is an inconsistency of decisions (ie we use umpires guess on the close ones) rather than the consistency the alternative would at least appear to provide, if its clipping its out everytime rather than some being out and some not


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			supposedly so but it isnt being portrayed that way by commentators and the graphics shown can only confuse more to a casual viewer imo. what it is ensuring is an inconsistency of decisions (ie we use umpires guess on the close ones) rather than the consistency the alternative would at least appear to provide, if its clipping its out everytime rather than some being out and some not
		
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Totally with you - if it's hitting its out - missing it's not out - would it cause more issues with more appeals ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Totally with you - if it's hitting its out - missing it's not out - would it cause more issues with more appeals ?
		
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may get a few more initially but they soon stop when the sides lose their appeals. you'd get more lbw's being out, which would balance the game back to the bowlers a bit which cant do any harm imo


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			may get a few more initially but they soon stop when the sides lose their appeals. you'd get more lbw's being out, which would balance the game back to the bowlers a bit which cant do any harm imo
		
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Is that what cricket bodies want though ? Aren't they all about batters scoring lots of runs ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			supposedly so but it isnt being portrayed that way by commentators and the graphics shown can only confuse more to a casual viewer imo. what it is ensuring is an inconsistency of decisions (ie we use umpires guess on the close ones) rather than the consistency the alternative would at least appear to provide, if its clipping its out everytime rather than some being out and some not
		
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Better still do as India does; stuff Hawkeye until it can offer something nearer 100% certainty.


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that what cricket bodies want though ? Aren't they all about batters scoring lots of runs ?
		
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seems to have been the last few years, if they listen to the fans though theyll realise that a decent balance between bat and ball more important! Almost everyone I know would rather watch a T20 where 140 plays 141-8 rather than 200-3 v 201-2

they do seem to realise they may have gone too far and are reversing some of the odi fielding changes rules to reverse the trend a little


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Better still do as India does; stuff Hawkeye until it can offer something nearer 100% certainty.
		
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Can never offer anything near 100% certainty. 

And India have to use it soon enough


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can never offer anything near 100% certainty. 

And India have to use it soon enough
		
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Really?

"Have to use it", are you sure?

 Whose is the dominant voice within the ICC?

Personally I cannot see BCCI doing anything it does not want and, in any event, see nothing wrong in the old fashioned method of relying upon the umpires' judgement on all but run out and stumping decisions.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can never offer anything near 100% certainty. 

And India have to use it soon enough
		
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Disagree. Nothing to make them sign up and they are adamant they don't want it


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

Terrible bowling by England today and some feisty hitting by NZ but at 300+ they are in control of this now. If they can make 450 or so they have a big target to defend and can see them tying the series up especially if the weather doesn't intervene too much


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Terrible bowling by England today and some feisty hitting by NZ but at 300+ they are in control of this now. If they can make 450 or so they have a big target to defend and can see them tying the series up especially if the weather doesn't intervene too much
		
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Not sure BMac will wait until 450, fully expect him to want to be bowling tomorrow morning, especially if its as cloudy as forecast. New Zealand been superb today, especially Watling who has to be the best keeper/batsman in test cricket currently, but still plenty to do to close this game out


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Not sure BMac will wait until 450, fully expect him to want to be bowling tomorrow morning, especially if its as cloudy as forecast. New Zealand been superb today, especially Watling who has to be the best keeper/batsman in test cricket currently, but still plenty to do to close this game out
		
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Of course if an England can get a century maker then it will be close and exciting and with NZ only having four bowlers it puts a huge onus on them to take wickets. It has a way to go but with at least a day and a half to bowl England out then NZ must be favourites


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2015)

I think England need to do some work on their reviews. BBC live text this afternoon saying that in this series they had used 8 reviews and got every one of them wrong.

EDIT - not sure if this was only fielding reviews or if it included batting reviews.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Really?

"Have to use it", are you sure?

 Whose is the dominant voice within the ICC?

Personally I cannot see BCCI doing anything it does not want and, in any event, see nothing wrong in the old fashioned method of relying upon the umpires' judgement on all but run out and stumping decisions.
		
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Already been forced to use it WC and T20 WC and away test series 

Soon a video referral system will be in use in every test series played I believe IMO


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Already been forced to use it WC and T20 WC and away test series 

Soon a video referral system will be in use in every test series played I believe
		
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Not seen anything to confirm that?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think England need to do some work on their reviews. BBC live text this afternoon saying that in this series they had used 8 reviews and got every one of them wrong.

EDIT - not sure if this was only fielding reviews or if it included batting reviews.
		
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theyre not the only ones. the way the system is now working its actually very hard to get a referral right except when youre the batter and hit it when given lbw. sides are gambling with them in the field but losing out to umpires call almost every time, to get a not out over turned it has to be so plumb that its almost always been given out already


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Already been forced to use it* WC and T20 WC and *away test series* 

Soon a video referral system will be in use in every test series played I believe IMO
		
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which test series?

didnt have it away in Aus or over here


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			which test series?

didnt have it away in Aus or over here
		
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I thought it was either snicko or hotspot they didn't use - still had Hawkeye ? 

Edit: nope you are right - there was talk of them accepting it use at the end of last year 

I know in 2011 they didn't have it.


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I thought it was either snicko or hotspot they didn't use - still had Hawkeye ? 

I know in 2011 they didn't have it.
		
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nope, Indias recent away series (and obv their home ones) have had no DRS at all

edit: its actually Hawkeye they have the biggest issue with as it has a margin of error built in


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			nope, Indias recent away series (and obv their home ones) have had no DRS at all
		
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See my edit mate :thup:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10963135/England-v-India-India-close-to-accepting-umpire-review-system-as-Matt-Prior-howler-adds-to-the-pressure.html

It's an old article but it's something they were talking about during a rain break last year


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Yep thats right

Sadly none of the other countries dare tell India what the rules are when they come a visiting, too scared of the recriminations. Quite sad how England/Aus/SA boards have got into bed with them for money reasons and hence allow them to run the game pretty much as they choose these days


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Yep thats right

Sadly none of the other countries dare tell India what the rules are when they come a visiting, too scared of the recriminations. Quite sad how England/Aus/SA boards have got into bed with them for money reasons and hence allow them to run the game pretty much as they choose these days
		
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Do they use it during ODI or T20 ?


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do they use it during ODI or T20 ?
		
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india dont no, they had to in the recent world cup but thats about it


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			india dont no, they had to in the recent world cup but thats about it
		
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I expect with the amount of times an umpire gets it wrong will start to turn their heads further round 

Can see it being used by them all soon it enough


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I expect with the amount of times an umpire gets it wrong will start to turn their heads further round 

Can see it being used by them all soon it enough
		
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its got to go one way or another, either they all use it or it gets scrapped, think theres a fair chance of either considering Indias stance, also a few other boards struggle to afford it


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			its got to go one way or another, either they all use it or it gets scrapped, think theres a fair chance of either considering Indias stance, also a few other boards struggle to afford it
		
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That's where the funding for it needs to come direct from the ICC 

If it gets scrapped as a tool on the pitch then it's going to be a nightmare for the umpires because every single decision will be analysed by the pundits and every mistake highlighted


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's where the funding for it needs to come direct from the ICC 

If it gets scrapped as a tool on the pitch then it's going to be a nightmare for the umpires because every single decision will be analysed by the pundits and every mistake highlighted
		
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yep, we go back to where we were but with even more scrutiny

the funding argument is actually helping Indias cause too, basically their view being if the ICC has to pay for it then they are paying the lions share so they should have the say!

easier in countries like England and Aus where the tv companies basically provide it as part of their contract, not as easy in WI and the Asian countries


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			yep, we go back to where we were but with even more scrutiny

the funding argument is actually helping Indias cause too, basically their view being if the ICC has to pay for it then they are paying the lions share so they should have the say!

easier in countries like England and Aus where the tv companies basically provide it as part of their contract, not as easy in WI and the Asian countries
		
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The cricket boards aren't short of money though - even make so with the amount of money they are gained from their various franchise T20 comps they hold 

It will need to come to a head soon enough


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

It will come to a time when it's all or nothing. It has to be taken on board by everyone or not at all. It has led to decisions being over turned (correctly) so in my mind has a place in the game.


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The cricket boards aren't short of money though - even make so with the amount of money they are gained from their various franchise T20 comps they hold 

It will need to come to a head soon enough
		
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Some of them are, Sri Lankan board are essentially skint (they often run into problems when they dont play their players for several mths), Pakistan and West Indies also not overly strong financially either. Definitely 2 tiers financially within the game and the gap being forced wider by the "haves"


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Some of them are, Sri Lankan board are essentially skint (they often run into problems when they dont play their players for several mths), Pakistan and West Indies also not overly strong financially either. Definitely 2 tiers financially within the game and the gap being forced wider by the "haves"
		
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Wonder how much touring teams earn from playing away ? 

I know Pakistan have been hit badly since not playing at home in recent years


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Some of them are, Sri Lankan board are essentially skint (they often run into problems when they dont play their players for several mths), Pakistan and West Indies also not overly strong financially either. Definitely 2 tiers financially within the game and the gap being forced wider by the "haves"
		
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True. Sri Lanka have struggled for a few years and the West Indies board are often running into issues (some of their own making) and so to say they can afford it is off the mark


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## fundy (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wonder how much touring teams earn from playing away ? 

I know Pakistan have been hit badly since not playing at home in recent years
		
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Depends on the arrangements with the home team but this is where the gap is growing with the big sides keeping higher proportion of the revenues, especially India, and the littler guys cant do much to stop it as the ICC is toothless (and controlled by the BCCI)

Also, theres been a reduction in the number of games the smaller sides are getting from the bigger sides, limiting their income further


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2015)

fundy said:



			Depends on the arrangements with the home team but this is where the gap is growing with the big sides keeping higher proportion of the revenues, especially India, and the littler guys cant do much to stop it as the ICC is toothless (and controlled by the BCCI)

Also, theres been a reduction in the number of games the smaller sides are getting from the bigger sides, limiting their income further
		
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Not long before a two tier system in place to push smaller sides away ? Will it be a case of the big sides just playing each other on a rotation ?

I can possibly see India not bothering too much about tests soon - eggs firmly being thrown into the IPL


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2015)

But Hawkeye is not a "fact based" system. 

Whilst it does have the benefit of sophisticated camera tracking ultimately it depends upon assumptions on the continued flight of the ball after it has struck the batsmen. Too many members of the TV viewing public are being led to believe it is infallible when it is not.

The Indian Board remains resolutely opposed to DRS in general and Hawkeye in particular and it is difficult to see them changing (or being forced to change) their position in the foreseeable future.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not long before a two tier system in place to push smaller sides away ? Will it be a case of the big sides just playing each other on a rotation ?
		
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Depends what the Indian TV companies want.


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			The Indian Board remains resolutely opposed to DRS in general and Hawkeye in particular and it is difficult to see them changing (or being forced to change) their position in the foreseeable future.
		
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Was there not another system considered before Hawkeye got chosen? Do the Indian board have any stake in that one and hence aren't prepared to accept a different system?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was there not another system considered before Hawkeye got chosen? Do the Indian board have any stake in that one and hence aren't prepared to accept a different system?
		
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Not as far as I am aware. 

I know that there were several systems (including Hawkeye) under consideration for "goal-line technology" in football but not in cricket.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2015)

I don't think we're get to a tow tier game and it would be sad if we do. The smaller sides need something to aspire to and the likes of West Indies etc need to be able to compete if only from a monetary persepctive.


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Not as far as I am aware. 

I know that there were several systems (including Hawkeye) under consideration for "goal-line technology" in football but not in cricket.
		
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Just been on google and it turns out that another company called Virtual Eye also do a similar thing to Hawkeye but they are a NZ based company so unlikely that there is a link to the Inidan board or Indian TV companies.


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## Tongo (Jun 1, 2015)

Another intriguing day at Headingly. I think these two tests have shown that this really should have been a 3 match series and played during a different summer to the Ashes.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

How good was Mark Wood's spell to Brendon McCullum yesterday afternoon! He looks a seriously talented bowler, think he could be around the side for a while. 

Going to be a very interesting day. Going to be a result either way, so hopefully England can dig in and get the win. Unlikely, but I'm not writing them off yet!


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## fundy (Jun 1, 2015)

Turns out there were cameras at Taunton yesterday for Gayles inns, this is the sort ov coverage I was talking about LP. Just a shame they dont find a way to have these online live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4XefLrWhDk&feature=youtu.be


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

England's bowling at tail-enders continues to be absolutely dire to watch. Hit the stumps, bowl it at their toes FFS. I swear none of the deliveries so far this morning would have hit the stumps.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

Somebody should ban Stuart Broad from bowling at the tail. He's absolutely awful at bowling at lower-order batsmen. Get it on their toes. We've lost. Only rain can save us now.


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## rickg (Jun 1, 2015)

454 to win...what could possibly go wrong?


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

0% yorkers. Pathetic.


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## Tongo (Jun 1, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Somebody should ban Stuart Broad from bowling at the tail. He's absolutely awful at bowling at lower-order batsmen. Get it on their toes. We've lost. Only rain can save us now.
		
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They've learnt nothing from the World Cup. I'm guessing the tactics were bang it in short ad infinitum?


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## Tongo (Jun 1, 2015)

Remember how people were guffawing at NZ's tactics in the last test of going for broke rather than batting time? Bet their not guffawing now. 

I like the way McCullum has obviously decided that England wont get 455 and declared rather than needlessly batting on until NZ were bowled out.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

Tongo said:



			They've learnt nothing from the World Cup. I'm guessing the tactics were bang it in short ad infinitum?
		
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Correct. Wood bowled very well, and was unlucky not to pick up Watling, but Broad was awful. Short, nothing deliveries that got spanked, 3 sixes off his last over, all pathetic short/back-of-a-length deliveries that were asking to be smashed. He's always been rubbish bowling to the tail, yet despite years of failure, continues to believe that short is the way to go. Moronic bowling.


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## fundy (Jun 1, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Remember how people were guffawing at NZ's tactics in the last test of going for broke rather than batting time? Bet their not guffawing now. 

I like the way McCullum has obviously decided that England wont get 455 and declared rather than needlessly batting on until NZ were bowled out.
		
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large dose of weather forecast in the declaration too. almost certain we lose overs this afternoon and again tomorrow, he actually went further than he prob planned as runs were coming so quickly


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## Tongo (Jun 1, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Correct. Wood bowled very well, and was unlucky not to pick up Watling, but Broad was awful. Short, nothing deliveries that got spanked, 3 sixes off his last over, all pathetic short/back-of-a-length deliveries that were asking to be smashed. *He's always been rubbish bowling to the tail, yet despite years of failure, continues to believe that short is the way to go. Moronic bowling*.
		
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Poor captaincy as well for not recognising this development.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

Actually, in regards to Broad. I'm not sure it is entirely lack of brains, but I genuinely think he struggles to control length. It's been an issue his entire career. He must surely know that his best spells come when he pitches the ball up, but consistently bangs it in shot without reward. If Broad bowled the length Anderson bowls, he'd be a MUCH better bowler, and when he has his magic spells that's exactly what he does. He must just struggle to control his length. Either that, or he's a moron.


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## pendodave (Jun 1, 2015)

It doesn't really matter why Broad is not bowling a good length (and so often fails to), if he can't do it, he shouldn't be playing international cricket. I wonder if a spell on a few chilly county grounds might encourage him to try a bit harder...

Swann (obviously biased) suggested that good spin is the way to remove tail enders. Given that Ali picked one up fairly promptly this morning, I think he speaks some sense. At least with spin they have to generate their own power, whereas with the medium quick guys any sort of contact yields another boundary.

For some reason, there's a little bit of me that things we might get out of this. Once the new ball has gone batting has been a lot more straightforward the last couple of days.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree re. Broad. Either way, it's not good enough.

Agree with Swann too. Good spin from one end, quick bowler bowling yorkers and full-length from the other.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

That's an interesting start for Mark Craig. Some very good, and some down-right awful. His 5th one went to mid-wicket, didn't go anywhere near the pitch. The follow up was a beaut though.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

So, erm, this is going well. Vintage England bottle this. Pathetic batting.


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## Tongo (Jun 2, 2015)

Mmmm, surprised to see that score when I logged onto the internet! Good opportunity for Cook to produce a skipper's rearguard innings. 

And for Stokes to prove he's more than just a run a ball man.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2015)

At the moment Bell is simply not good enough to justify his place. Even in the last game he didn't score many and hardly troubled the scorers in the last game v the West Indies and one in the one before. Aside from the century in the drawn test in the Carribean his form has been poor


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

Who replaces him though? I'd like to see James Vince given a go, or James Taylor, but to chuck them in against the Aussies is asking a lot. KP would obviously be the ideal replacement, as there'd be no fear factor for him, and the Aussies would be wary of him, but that's not happening.

With Cook gone, we're done. Pathetic batting performance.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

What a terrible innings that was. Moeen needs to go back to County Cricket. Time for Rashid to be given a go.


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## richart (Jun 2, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			At the moment Bell is simply not good enough to justify his place. Even in the last game he didn't score many and hardly troubled the scorers in the last game v the West Indies and one in the one before. Aside from the century in the drawn test in the Carribean his form has been poor
		
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 Form is temporary, class is permanent. I would also add who do you replace him with, but I think you have been asked that more than once before. 

I am pretty sure Australia would rather play against a rookie test batsmen than Bell. We need experience against Australia, and if you take Bell out with are left with just Cook with more than 30 tests in the top eight.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			What a terrible innings that was. Moeen needs to go back to County Cricket. Time for Rashid to be given a go.
		
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How can you possibly say that? It was a bad (disastrous) leave in a short innings! What else did he do wrong in the 14 balls he faced in the innings (again)?

Certainly a (nother) failure though!


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

Did you not see his massive swipe at a ball from Craig outside the off stump? Was like he was trying to get himself out. Not the sort of shot you should be playing when you're trying to save a Test match.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Did you not see his massive swipe at a ball from Craig outside the off stump? Was like he was trying to get himself out. Not the sort of shot you should be playing when you're trying to save a Test match.
		
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That's the fine balance about Cricket, especially in this sort of situation!

It's up to the batsman to lift the pressure being put on him by bowlers/fielders rather than simply blocking it out!

With that sort of 'logic' there wasn't actually any point Cook playing strokes and making another 50 - and getting to the 9k runs milestone!


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

There's playing strokes to change the momentum, and playing wild swipes to wide balls. It was a no win shot, and incredibly risky. I have no issue with guys playing shots, but it's picking the right balls and the right shots, that was never the right option, and it was executed terribly.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			There's playing strokes to change the momentum, and playing wild swipes to wide balls. It was a no win shot, and incredibly risky. I have no issue with guys playing shots, but it's picking the right balls and the right shots, that was never the right option, and it was executed terribly.
		
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So a bad leave to be out and 1 somewhat rash stroke - making a 'terrible innings'! And from a #8! Harsh criticism imo. Though pretty typical of what happens with English Cricket! It's not #8s that are the cause of this almost certain loss! Though a natural stone-waller (which Mooen is not) might be able to engineer something!

Though almost certain some County performances would help his confidence!


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So a bad leave to be out and 1 somewhat rash stroke - making a 'terrible innings'! And from a #8! Harsh criticism imo. Though pretty typical of what happens with English Cricket! It's not #8s that are the cause of this almost certain loss! Though a natural stone-waller (which Mooen is not) might be able to engineer something!

Though almost certain some County performances would help his confidence!
		
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he may be batting at 8 but hes been picked, at least originally as a front line batter. to pigeon hole him as a number 8 is very misleading imo

as for Wood, looks way better than a number 10


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

Moeen Ali is not a number 8, he's opened in 20 ODi's for England, and bats 3 for Worcestershire. He's definitely not a stone-waller, but he's capable of playing sensible cricket shots and playing to the situation. Jos Buttler isn't a stone waller, but he's played to the situation excellently so far, and isn't flashing at the ball outside the off stump like Ali was. It was mindless batting, and considering the situation, a bad innings from a player who is in a rotten run of form. He desperately needs to find some form, otherwise he could see himself dumped before the first Ashes test, and on the evidence from this series, rightly so. I don't see what he's currently bringing to this side. Terrible form with the bat and not bowling anything like he was last summer.


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

fair play to NZ, theyve been excellent for most of this series and batted at such a rate in this game they could afford to lose 2 sessions to the weather and still win with time to spare. Such a shame this series is over, beautifully poised if it had been a 5 match series


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

All over. Nicely bowled over from Craig, set Jos up nicely. Shame there's no decider, really enjoyed this series! Shocking collapse from England though, no backbone at all.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

fundy said:



			he may be batting at 8 but hes been picked, at least originally as a front line batter. to pigeon hole him as a number 8 is very misleading imo

as for Wood, looks way better than a number 10
		
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Where did I say he was 'a' #8? Just that he was at #8!!

Shunting him around in the lineup certainly wouldn't help either! Though that could simply be as a prelude to ditching him - which would be justified if they can find a replacement!


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So a bad leave to be out and 1 somewhat rash stroke - making a 'terrible innings'! *And from a #8!* Harsh criticism imo. Though pretty typical of what happens with English Cricket! It's not #8s that are the cause of this almost certain loss! Though a natural stone-waller (which Mooen is not) might be able to engineer something!

Though almost certain some County performances would help his confidence!
		
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where do you not say hes a #8?????


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## Dan2501 (Jun 2, 2015)

Ballance, Bell and Moeen better not be in the ODi or T20 squads. They desperately need County Championship games. 

Torn series from an England perspective, there were some very promising performances, and some very worrying ones. Cook has regained some form, Lyth came in and looked good, Stokes was a revelation, Root continued to do well, Buttler impressive with bat and gloves, and Anderson, Wood and Broad look a decent front-line seam attack. The issues come in the top-order with Ballance and Bell looking dreadfully out of knick, and with Moeen who's out of form with the bat, and with the ball. If The Ashes started tomorrow, you'd be brave to pick Ballance, Bell and Moeen.


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Ballance, Bell and Moeen better not be in the ODi or T20 squads. They desperately need County Championship games. 

Torn series from an England perspective, there were some very promising performances, and some very worrying ones. Cook has regained some form, Lyth came in and looked good, Stokes was a revelation, Root continued to do well, Buttler impressive with bat and gloves, and Anderson, Wood and Broad look a decent front-line seam attack. The issues come in the top-order with Ballance and Bell looking dreadfully out of knick, and with Moeen who's out of form with the bat, and with the ball. If The Ashes started tomorrow, you'd be brave to pick Ballance, Bell and Moeen.
		
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Of the test squad the only players Id have in the ODI squad would be Buttler, Root and Stokes personally. Broad and Andersen would be in cotton wool, Wood not a limited overs bowler and should be kept fresh for the longer ball format imo. All the other batters either arent ODI players or need red ball time at the wicket ahead of the Aussies


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Ballance, Bell and Moeen better not be in the ODi or T20 squads. They desperately need County Championship games. 

Torn series from an England perspective, there were some very promising performances, and some very worrying ones. Cook has regained some form, Lyth came in and looked good, Stokes was a revelation, Root continued to do well, Buttler impressive with bat and gloves, and Anderson, Wood and Broad look a decent front-line seam attack. The issues come in the top-order with Ballance and Bell looking dreadfully out of knick, and with Moeen who's out of form with the bat, and with the ball. If The Ashes started tomorrow, you'd be brave to pick Ballance, Bell and Moeen.
		
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Agree about Ballance, Bell & Mo. Also I think our two main line bowlers are now looking ordinary, just look at the runs they have conceded.

Lyth deserves a go, Stokes is worth persisting with but he is still hit and miss. Good job we have not got a top-line spinner as Buttler still cannot keep, standing up.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

fundy said:



			where do you not say hes a #8?????
		
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Doh! Unintentional!


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Doh! Unintentionl!
		
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rofl


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2015)

Selectors not done the worst job with the ODI squad for me just disappointing the auto select Wood because hes done well in the tests, we just dont learn our lesson sometimes especially with quicks!, Vince probably the one most unlucky to miss out on recent form.

Finn and Plunkett I guess to keep in the fold as likely to be the back up options in the Ashes

Morgan (capt), Billings, Buttler, Finn, Hales, Jordan, Plunkett, Rashid, Root, Roy, Stokes, Taylor, Wood, Willey


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## Tongo (Jun 2, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			All over. Nicely bowled over from Craig, set Jos up nicely. *Shame there's no decider, really enjoyed this series!* Shocking collapse from England though, no backbone at all.
		
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Yes, totally agree. We've been short changed as the ECB decided to shoe horn the Kiwis in the same summer as the Ashes.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't know who fills Bell's shoes but I think the Aussies have him worked out. Seems I'm not alone in my thinking http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...-Root-to-stake-his-claim-for-Ashes-place.html

Look at his recent form
12, 1	England	v New Zealand	
1, 29	England	v New Zealand	
0, 0	England	v West Indies	
1	England	v West Indies	
143, 11	England	v West Indies	

His form in the last Ashes tour wasn't much better and he looks a man badly out of form. I have no idea who could replace him but other nations including Australia have never been scared to chuck players into a side. Maybe England need to take a risk


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## richart (Jun 2, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I don't know who fills Bell's shoes but I think the Aussies have him worked out. Seems I'm not alone in my thinking http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...-Root-to-stake-his-claim-for-Ashes-place.html

Look at his recent form
12, 1	England	v New Zealand	
1, 29	England	v New Zealand	
0, 0	England	v West Indies	
1	England	v West Indies	
143, 11	England	v West Indies	

His form in the last Ashes tour wasn't much better and he looks a man badly out of form. I have no idea who could replace him but other nations including Australia have never been scared to chuck players into a side. Maybe England need to take a risk
		
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Great post with a link to an article dated 2013 calling for Bell's head. Bell was the highest run scorer in that series, and was named player of the series. Good article though.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2015)

richart said:



			Great post with a link to an article dated 2013 calling for Bell's head. Bell was the highest run scorer in that series, and was named player of the series. Good article though.

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Not the article I intended. I'll try and get the right one after dinner. Irrespective of that, look at the form. Hardly encouraging

This one is pretty accurate. He needs to go back and get runs at county level but say he'll play in the Ashes. I wonder if he flops again in the first couple whether England could really continue to be patient http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32980195


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## Dan2501 (Jun 9, 2015)

Exciting XI picked by England. Roy unlucky to get out first ball, but he's the sort of player that should be persisted with. Nice to see the likes of Hales, Roy, Billings, Rashid, Plunkett and Finn given a go. Interested to see how Stokes goes too. He was very poor last summer in ODi's, but seems in much better form now. Exciting team, and one that should be persisted with. Hales looks in excellent nick!


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## fundy (Jun 9, 2015)

Nice to see for sure, such a shame the powers that be wasted the last year and the World Cup before they were almost backed into going this route rather than seeing it was the obvious way forward a long while ago when everyone else could see

The bowling attack looks a tad scary to me, could go a long way on a good track


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## fundy (Jun 9, 2015)

Root showing just how good he really is yet again, be nice to see him go on to a massive score here now


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## fundy (Jun 9, 2015)

top class from Butler this, England gonna get 400 here

anyone still think Moores and the old approach was the best way to go? nope didnt think so


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2015)

Fantastic performance by England.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 10, 2015)

Superb performance. Didn't get to see any of the bowling performance, but the batting was magnificent. Root and Buttler are the future of this England team. Just hope they maintain this level of performance now and win the series and don't revert to the old style.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2015)

Well that was fun. I know that can not happen every time but I would rather we go down playing like that than the wet performances of recent years.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2015)

Matt Prior has just announced his retirement from all forms of cricket. Excellent player for England, a cracking counter attacking batsman who often got England out of trouble. I believe he averaged just over 40 for England in Tests, good enough to play as a batsman in his own right.


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## Paperboy (Jun 11, 2015)

He seems to be very into his Road biking at the moment. Which I think he used to get himself fit again.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 11, 2015)

Prior improved a lot as his career went on for England. When he first came in he was basically picked as a batsman who happened to wear gloves while fielding. His keeping went from being very poor to just above average by the end of his career, but it was his batting that really carried him. Got England out of trouble so many times with the bat, and got his runs at a good rate. Should never have played more LO internationals than James Foster though. Pre-Buttler, Foster was easily the best keeper in the country and should have played more for England.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2015)

Dan - Foster and Chris Read were both robbed of a pile of international caps. Others will in future. The trend is for a batsman who can put gloves on rather than a true wicket keeper. How many dropped catches, stumpings missed etc caused by this? I'm old school and would prefer a proper glove man but there is no sign of England deviating from this approach.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Dan - Foster and Chris Read were both robbed of a pile of international caps. Others will in future. The trend is for a batsman who can put gloves on rather than a true wicket keeper. How many dropped catches, stumpings missed etc caused by this? I'm old school and would prefer a proper glove man but there is no sign of England deviating from this approach.
		
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I'm with you on this. Wickets win matches and if you have a so, so keeper that can make the odd mistake and miss crucial stumpings it can come back to bite you.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 12, 2015)

This is crap bowling with the new ball. Too many deliveries short and wide. Only bowled one delivery to McCullum that would have hit the stumps. Simply not good enough.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2015)

How many times do you hear commentators mention that Englands bowlers have bowled 1/2 a yard too short? Too bloomin often. It is a real failing of the current crop, Broad and Anderson included.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 12, 2015)

Shouldn't really be a surprise when our opening bowlers are Jordan and Finn though. Hardly McGrath and Pollock!


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## fundy (Jun 12, 2015)

yet again a vast disparity between bat and ball going on again

That said, surely this is the last time Jordan is seen impersonating an international opening bowler


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## Dan2501 (Jun 12, 2015)

Can somebody please let me know why Chris Jordan is still bowling?


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## fundy (Jun 12, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Can somebody please let me know why Chris Jordan is still bowling?
		
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very worrying signs for Morgan as a captain, sticking to a plan that is clearly failing, reminds me of another Eng captain lol


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## Dan2501 (Jun 17, 2015)

What a run chase. Morgan and Root spectacular once again. This series has been amazing entertainment!


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## Tongo (Jun 18, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			What a run chase. Morgan and Root spectacular once again. This series has been amazing entertainment!
		
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Joe Root cant put a foot wrong at the moment. Pleased for Morgan that he's finding some form. Great to see England playing some good, attacking cricket.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2015)

Imagine if England teams of all sporting types played in this fashion? We may still not win but boy would they be loved.

One other thing, I hope England are getting hold of the New Zealand cricket board and arranging a full 5 test series for asap rather than the 3 match series we offered this time. Being treated as a warm up for the Ashes is an insult to them. They have been great and this should be recognised. Who wouldn't buy tickets to see them again?


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## Tongo (Jun 18, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Imagine if England teams of all sporting types played in this fashion? We may still not win but boy would they be loved.

One other thing, I hope England are getting hold of the New Zealand cricket board and arranging a full 5 test series for asap rather than the 3 match series we offered this time. Being treated as a warm up for the Ashes is an insult to them. They have been great and this should be recognised. Who wouldn't buy tickets to see them again?
		
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Indeed. England's cricket at the moment may see them lose matches due to some profligate play but it will also see them win games that they wouldn't have done previously. Its refreshing and entertaining. English cricket has needed this for some time. 

As for NZ, its a crying shame there wasn't at least a 3rd test in the series. They have been excellent and should not be shoehorned into an Ashes summer again.


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## GB72 (Jun 18, 2015)

Amazing how quickly a turn around can happen. As a person who was losing interest in the short form of the game after a number of turgid england performances, I am now dashing home after work to get the cricket on. The result does not matter so much to me now, just how the game is played and many sports could learn from this.


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## fundy (Jun 18, 2015)

Definitely seems Im in the minority on this one, find the total imbalance between bat and ball horrible and not enjoying the constant run fests on flat wickets. May as well do away with the bowlers and use a bowling machine.

For me there needs to be wickets that offer something to the bowlers, some pace and bounce especially! Some pretty ordinary batters are being made to look like world beaters of late, really need the balance restoring imo


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2015)

I agree with you for test matches. One day matches are a different thing entirely though. They are about raw entertainment and that is being provided in buckets. Bowlers also need to get a bit smarter and work out ways of combatting this new style of batting.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 18, 2015)

fundy said:



			Definitely seems Im in the minority on this one, find the total imbalance between bat and ball horrible and not enjoying the constant run fests on flat wickets. May as well do away with the bowlers and use a bowling machine.

For me there needs to be wickets that offer something to the bowlers, some pace and bounce especially! Some pretty ordinary batters are being made to look like world beaters of late, really need the balance restoring imo
		
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Good bowling has been rewarded though. Finn and Wood's figures in the last game were very good. No-one else in the game bowled as well as them, and on a flat pitch, you get tonked. It's the way One Day cricket should work. Good bowling results in wickets and economy, bad bowling gets smashed.


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## fundy (Jun 18, 2015)

Dan2501 said:



			Good bowling has been rewarded though. Finn and Wood's figures in the last game were very good. No-one else in the game bowled as well as them, and on a flat pitch, you get tonked. It's the way One Day cricket should work. Good bowling results in wickets and economy, bad bowling gets smashed.
		
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So good bowling for the best 2 bowlers in the match was "rewarded" with figures of 1-50? All ill say is im glad im not a bowler lol

As I say im obviously getting too old and clearly in the minority as to what I want to see in a game


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## Tongo (Jun 18, 2015)

fundy said:



			Definitely seems Im in the minority on this one, find the total imbalance between bat and ball horrible and not enjoying the constant run fests on flat wickets. May as well do away with the bowlers and use a bowling machine.

For me there needs to be wickets that offer something to the bowlers, some pace and bounce especially! Some pretty ordinary batters are being made to look like world beaters of late, really need the balance restoring imo
		
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I agree with you. The balance is too much in favour of the batsman and things need to be tinkered a bit. 

That said, England appear to have realised that its no longer 1992 and that they have to be more aggressive.


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2015)

Brilliant!

And all achieved without Kevin (me me me) Pietersen...


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## Dan2501 (Jun 20, 2015)

#WhoNeedsKP


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## Tongo (Jun 20, 2015)

Mightily impressed that they managed to still win after being 45-5. A great performance and good to see the attacking modus operandi has been rewarded.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Mightily impressed that they managed to still win after being 45-5. A great performance and good to see the attacking modus operandi has been rewarded.
		
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Fortunate that Bairstow got them out of a hole after the top order made a balls up of the chase but overall, they were pretty good in the series and it has some great potential going forward. Not so sure about the test side though


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## richart (Jun 20, 2015)

Good finish to a cracking series. Looks like there is some healthy competition for places.


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## louise_a (Jun 20, 2015)

I bought a Now TV sports pass for the US Open and so could watch the match today, great finishing by Bairstow, but also excellent leg spin bowling from Rashid.


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## richart (Jun 23, 2015)

Good win in the twenty twenty.:thup: We have a strong batting line up when Rashid comes in at number nine. Average age of the team 24/25, so hope for the future. Nice to see the game played in a decent spirit as well. Have a feeling that will all change with the Aussies in town.


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## Tongo (Jun 24, 2015)

richart said:



			Good win in the twenty twenty.:thup: We have a strong batting line up when Rashid comes in at number nine. Average age of the team 24/25, so hope for the future. Nice to see the game played in a decent spirit as well. *Have a feeling that will all change with the Aussies in town*.
		
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Yes and the fresh faced look of the team, in age, general outlook and in tactics, wont quite be as good with the test team.


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## Dan2501 (Jun 24, 2015)

Another brilliant performance. Root again superb with the bat, a much better performance in the field and stand-out performances from Wood and Willey with the ball. Great stuff, been an amazing turn around!


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