# Lake balls V new balls.



## Brian_C (Feb 12, 2014)

I stumbled upon this site that did a comparison between used lake balls and brand new out of the box balls and the difference is very minimal.  I just wanted to share on here as I've seen a couple of heated debates - might help people decide.

http://www.knetgolf.com/topic/36-golf-ball-testing.aspx

How Do Recycled & Refinished Golf Balls Perform?

Numbers Donâ€™t Lie!

Since the beginning of the Used golf ball industry there has been some controversy raised as to whether used golf balls retrieved from the water perform any different than new golf balls.

The questioning of the performance of recycled balls may have been relevant years ago when balls were made differently, but golf balls today are constructed completely different and are very resilient.

So here is the test:

We bought 10 dozen new golf balls from a major retailer and took 10 dozen of each grade of golf balls that we recover and recycle right off of our shelves to an independent golf ball testing facility (Advanced Golf Solutions) that tests new balls for many of the top manufacturers.

All the grades of balls we sell were tested except for those that are structurally damaged or too old. These we do not sell. We do not have the capability to repair a damaged ball either through recycling or refinishing and these are discarded.

We hoped to once and for all put an end to this hearsay controversy of â€œwater ballsâ€ or "used golf balls"and do some independent scientifically controlled testing, not subjective anecdotal testing that has been the mainstay of the common thought on this topic.

And hereâ€™s what we found out:

Outside of cosmetics (which really is what the grading is all about), the balls in all the various grades tested against new golf balls right out the package show only a very minimal loss, in fact a statistically insignificant loss of carry distance. 

With a driver the maximum loss of carry over a drive of about 260 yards is about 5 yards with a grade B ball while the mint recycled and mint refinished balls show only a loss of 1 yard or less. Similar proportional results with both a wedge and 6 iron as indicated in the graphs below.

Is this difference significant?

Since 99% of all golfers cannot swing with any consistency to attain these averages over many shots, this loss of carry distance form 1 -5 yards is absolutely minimal when you take into account all the other factors that come into play when you swing a clubâ€¦ plane of club, follow through, back swing, in/out or out/in, weight shift, lie etc.

The question then becomes is it worth it to pay 40% - 80% more for golf balls that you are going to lose anyway just to gain a yard or so under ideal swing conditions?

Please note that even though we achieved the following results in our testing the legall team has advised us that we must add this disclaimer: 
The products we market do not meet the exact specifications of new golf balls and may be subject to performance variations from new golf balls. These balls do not fall under the original manufacturers warranty or guarantees. However, we believe strongly in our products and stand behind them 100%.

You be the judgeâ€¦ and if you decide to continue purchasing new balls after seeing this, we and all of our 300,000 customers thank you as you are now one of our suppliers.







Test Results Highlights: Overall Evaluation:
Insignificant Total Carry Difference â€œOur test data proves new balls and Knetgolf.com pre-owned balls are basically interchangeable,â€ says Tony Nelson, President of AGS. â€œI donâ€™t see how the average golfer would notice a difference â€“ except for the price.â€

"As for the difference between recycled and refinished balls, there is certainly no statistically significant difference in performance that any golfer I know would be able to detect." Tony added, " This is a certainly a win for all golfers." 


Test Parameters: 
Tests were conducted by Advanced Golf Solutions LLC. an independent certified golf ball testing facility in Sarasota, Florida USA

Date of test: November 17 Temperature Range: 79F to 83F
Humidity Range: 49% to 54% Wind Direction: ESE
Wind Speed: 3.2 MPH to 6.4 MPH Wind Effect: Minimal Tail / Crossing

Tests were conducted by cannon for consistent RPM at an 18% launch angle with 0% side axis and at 57 PSI.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 12, 2014)

Looks interesting, but I have an inherent mistrust of any article paid for, and published by, the company that also sells that product!

There is always the phrase that statistics can show whatever result you want them to...


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## stevie_r (Feb 12, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			There is always the phrase that statistics can show whatever result you want them to...
		
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And the result they wanted to show was that there was a negligible reduction in distance, they did that.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 12, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I have an inherent mistrust of any article paid for, and published by, the company that also sells that product!
		
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So do I. That's why I would be VERY wary about taking Statins. all the research has been paid for by the manufacturers.


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## MarkE (Feb 12, 2014)

I always go for pearl grade lake balls. I don't hit the ball well enough to justify paying at least double for balls that, to me, are  the same.


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## Brian_C (Feb 12, 2014)

stevie_r said:



			And the result they wanted to show was that there was a negligible reduction in distance, they did that.
		
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In fairness, you're not going to get the original ball manufacturers doing the same tests and publishing the results, so we have to go on what data we can gleen from the web.

And most golfers don't have a consistent enough swing to make or notice a differance.


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## Imurg (Feb 12, 2014)

Recycled balls...no problem for me.
Every time you pick up a ball from the rough you've got a recycled ball in your hands and, as per the report, I doubt there's enough difference for us to see.

Refinished balls are a different kettle of fish
You have no idea what the original ball was - I have 2 or 3 refinished ProVs in my practice bag and they feel about as close to a real ProV as ManU are to winning the premier League this season....feels to me like they've taken a TopFlite and refinished it to look like a ProV, it certainly doesn't feel or perform like one.
Balls that have been lost in lakes will degrade but not for a few months I'd guess so, again, no real difference.


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## Scrindle (Feb 12, 2014)

Nice find. I always play with lake balls because I can't justify playing with new (unless they're a present!). I personally don't see any difference in distance whether I'm playing a brand new ball or a dull looking lake ball from my bag. I know the distance each of my clubs go and don't see any variation other than the norm from shot to shot using different balls.

I've even taken a mixture of balls to our practice pitching area before and played approach shots with full swing PW/9 irons and not noticed any difference in carry.

At the end of the day those who want to justify buying brand new balls, or who feel they play better playing with new balls, will play with new balls. Similarly those who are happy to play will lake balls will do the same. People will always find a way to pick holes in evidence if it doesn't show what they want it to.

Maybe someone should pose the question to Mark Crossfield and ask him to do some testing. He has a monitor and could do some figures too. He's probably find it quite interesting too!

[Edit] The test perameters are listed (copied below) and the ball testers appear to be the 'real deal' as it were. I think any doubt cast on the figures is more likely to be straw clutching than anything else to be honest...




			[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 272, colspan: 2"]*Test Parameters:*
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Tests were conducted by Advanced Golf Solutions LLC. an independent certified golf ball testing facility in Sarasota, Florida USA
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 272, colspan: 2"]Date of test: November 17
[/TD]
[TD]Temperature Range: 79F to 83F
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 272, colspan: 2"]Humidity Range: 49% to 54%
[/TD]
[TD]Wind Direction: ESE
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 272, colspan: 2"]Wind Speed: 3.2 MPH to 6.4 MPH
[/TD]
[TD]Wind Effect: Minimal Tail / Crossing
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Tests were conducted by cannon for consistent RPM at an 18% launch angle with 0% side axis and at 57 PSI.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
		
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## mefromhere (Feb 12, 2014)

Not sure I completely understand ... If every test was launched at 18 degrees and at the same speed how have they got different figures for driver, 6 iron and wedge? And also, is it not the quality of the cover and core that determines the spin which in turn controls the distance on the iron and wedges especially?


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## Rumpokid (Feb 12, 2014)

I think that good quality balls are so cheap these days, that Lake balls need not be an option.It's the type of ball with regard to abillity which helps a little more in the long run.Stick with a brand you like and stock up.


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## Dave B (Feb 12, 2014)

There are that many good ball offers for the prudent buyer that make lake balls an non viable option in my opinion. Many of the shops offer free postage if you buy enough balls. 

If you stock up in bulk you can buy mid range balls for Â£10-12 a dozen on special, (Bridgestone E series, Srixon AD333/Soft feel, Wilson DX2/3 and Callaway Hot Hex/Hex Pro).

If you're a premium ball buyer and you're willing to buy other than Titleist I've picked up Wilson, Bridgestones, Callaway Chrome + TM Lethals/Penta and Srixon Z Stars for Â£15 - Â£20 a dozen.

Best time to buy is Christmas to New Year, paying particular attention to Xmas and New Year day specials


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2014)

Lake Balls are fine by me.

Pickups are just as good too - and even cheaper!


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 12, 2014)

I do love stats, I would prefer to see the full figures though as like has been mentioned stats can be twisted to an extent and conflicting ones left out altogether.

For the record though I am a big fan of lake/recycled balls and is pretty much all I ever play with. I don't see a difference in my own play. I buy Srixon Trispeed Tour Pearl/A grade mix at Â£6.50 per dozen.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 12, 2014)

I have a mistrust of found balls. Always seem to be in a hurry to get lost again.


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## drawboy (Feb 12, 2014)

I disagree with this totally. I had a Penfold Commando from a lake it was crap compered to an out of the box Pro V1X. Nuff said.


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## JCW (Feb 12, 2014)

Stats are what they are , any one can make stats suit their argument or promote what they are trying to sell , so for me you get what you pay for , for practice , knockabouts or just general play it matters not, but I always tee up in a comp with a brand new ProV 1 , Prov1x if its blowing hard ................EYG


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## stevie_r (Feb 12, 2014)

drawboy said:



			I disagree with this totally. I had a Penfold Commando from a lake it was crap compered to an out of the box Pro V1X. Nuff said.
		
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I found a Dunlop blue flash last week, sadly it is too small and has a bit of a smiler on it


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## guest100718 (Feb 12, 2014)

Company that sells lake balls tells us that lake balls are great.....


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 12, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Recycled balls...no problem for me.
Every time you pick up a ball from the rough you've got a recycled ball in your hands and, as per the report, I doubt there's enough difference for us to see.

Refinished balls are a different kettle of fish
You have no idea what the original ball was - I have 2 or 3 refinished ProVs in my practice bag and they feel about as close to a real ProV as ManU are to winning the premier League this season....feels to me like they've taken a TopFlite and refinished it to look like a ProV, it certainly doesn't feel or perform like one.
Balls that have been lost in lakes will degrade but not for a few months I'd guess so, again, no real difference.
		
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I'm with Imurg on this. To be honest there are enough good quality balls (AD333, Wilson etc) on the market that should appeal to most pockets. Refinished balls are a lottery although in my own opinion, there is a difference in lake ball performance and so I am sceptical about the data. There again I'm professional cynic but my hearts not in it!


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 13, 2014)

I am slightly confused by the new ball get what you pay for comments. I type this on a second hand laptop which I got for under Â£200 which was Â£800 new and has worked brilliantly for 4 years and the best laptop I have ever had. I am sat on a second hand sofa which is just as comfy and I buy preowned xbox games which play just as well.

I understand that the worry is that recycled balls especially lake balls deteriorate but after a (brief) internet search I can't find any stats that back this up. The only stats produced I can see are from the lake ball company saying they don't deteriorate very much if at all. This ties in with my own beliefs about the quality and value for money of lake balls I currently use with the added bonus of being able to use the same ball in practice as I play on the course. This would be far too expensive with boxes of balls whatever the deals and offers can be found and for me is the major reason I use them so readily.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I am slightly confused by the new ball get what you pay for comments. I type this on a second hand laptop which I got for under Â£200 which was Â£800 new and has worked brilliantly for 4 years and the best laptop I have ever had. I am sat on a second hand sofa which is just as comfy and I buy preowned xbox games which play just as well.

I understand that the worry is that recycled balls especially lake balls deteriorate but after a (brief) internet search I can't find any stats that back this up. The only stats produced I can see are from the lake ball company saying they don't deteriorate very much if at all. This ties in with my own beliefs about the quality and value for money of lake balls I currently use with the added bonus of being able to use the same ball in practice as I play on the course. This would be far too expensive with boxes of balls whatever the deals and offers can be found and for me is the major reason I use them so readily.
		
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Have there been any comments to that effect? You can certainly get brand new premium balls for 15 to 20 Â£ a doz if you shop around. Thats similar to Pear lake balls price.


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## Brian_C (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Company that sells lake balls tells us that lake balls are great.....
		
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Don't new ball manufactures tell us their balls are improved and the best, the longest, the straightest, high-spin, low-spin everytime we open a golf mag?


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 13, 2014)

Yeah there were a couple of comments to that effect and several more that don't trust the stats. As Brian points out the manufacturers stats are often what we go on with 'longest ever' irons being a popular one. Yes technology has improved but they have also dropped the lofts so 6 irons is now a 5 iron, 7 is now a 6, and so on.

You can get decent mid range balls for Â£12-Â£15 if you shop around, get lucky, or stock up when they are on special offer but that is still twice the price of the lake balls I buy which can be a huge saving considering how many I give to the local farmers  especially if the drop in quality is as negligible as they say.

Of course it could be that certain balls retain quality better than others (titleist) maybe they lose more accuracy, putting feel, spin around the green, wind performance, compared to simply just distance. They don't show the actual numbers, means, and standard deviation so maybe the distance is much more up and down with some balls producing long flyers that skew the averages.

I am happy with my lake balls but then as I never really play anything else maybe I am missing out but for now can remain blissfully ignorant.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Yeah there were a couple of comments to that effect and several more that don't trust the stats. As Brian points out the manufacturers stats are often what we go on with 'longest ever' irons being a popular one. Yes technology has improved but they have also dropped the lofts so 6 irons is now a 5 iron, 7 is now a 6, and so on.

You can get decent mid range balls for Â£12-Â£15 if you shop around, get lucky, or stock up when they are on special offer but that is still twice the price of the lake balls I buy which can be a huge saving considering how many I give to the local farmers  especially if the drop in quality is as negligible as they say.

Of course it could be that certain balls retain quality better than others (titleist) maybe they lose more accuracy, putting feel, spin around the green, wind performance, compared to simply just distance. They don't show the actual numbers, means, and standard deviation so maybe the distance is much more up and down with some balls producing long flyers that skew the averages.

I am happy with my lake balls but then as I never really play anything else maybe I am missing out but for now can remain blissfully ignorant.
		
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2 dozen pearl callaway hex chrome will set you back 29.99. call it 15 per doz. If you shop around and are preparred to stock up for the year (6 doz) then you can get them brand new for 16.50 a dozen.  When the price is so close I'd rather go brand new.


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			2 dozen pearl callaway hex chrome will set you back 29.99. call it 15 per doz. If you shop around and are preparred to stock up for the year (6 doz) then you can get them brand new for 16.50 a dozen.  When the price is so close I'd rather go brand new.
		
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Obviously I have not looked at every ball from every manufacturer so some may be better bargains than others. A quick look for Callaway hex chrome and I found pearl/A mix for Â£10.50 per dozen with free delivery on ebay. If the ball you use is not much different used than new then obviously that is what you go for but for the most part I think they are significantly cheaper.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Obviously I have not looked at every ball from every manufacturer so some may be better bargains than others. A quick look for Callaway hex chrome and I found pearl/A mix for Â£10.50 per dozen with free delivery on ebay. If the ball you use is not much different used than new then obviously that is what you go for but for the most part I think they are significantly cheaper.
		
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I have used lake balls and they are fine, but i'd rather tee up a nice new ball than one thats has scuffs and other marks on it.


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## USER1999 (Feb 13, 2014)

If I play with lake balls, I don't seem to concentrate as hard, and lose them quickly.

Nothing focusses the mind like a new prov and a tight drive.


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			2 dozen pearl callaway hex chrome will set you back 29.99. call it 15 per doz. If you shop around and are preparred to stock up for the year (6 doz) then you can get them brand new for 16.50 a dozen.  When the price is so close I'd rather go brand new.
		
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That might be the case for a particular ball (and Chrome Hex Pearls can be had cheaper, even by the dozen) and if you favour that then fine.

But it is certainly not the case for Pro Vs, nor even the top offerings from Srixon, Bridgestone, TM - or even Callaway (Hex Black Tour).


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## stevie_r (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I have used lake balls and they are fine, but i'd rather tee up a nice new ball than one thats has scuffs and other marks on it.
		
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But the vast majority of them are neither scuffed nor marked.  I ensure I have a stock of balls in the house at all times, I keep an eye on ebay and when I see balls that are about to go for the minimum bid (or not much more) I grab them to replenish my stock.  I've frequently picked up decent AD333 at 99p per batch plus the P & P.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

stevie_r said:



			But the vast majority of them are neither scuffed nor marked.  I ensure I have a stock of balls in the house at all times, I keep an eye on ebay and when I see balls that are about to go for the minimum bid (or not much more) I grab them to replenish my stock.  I've frequently picked up decent AD333 at 99p per batch plus the P & P.
		
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Im talking urethane covered balls as opposed to hard to scuff surlyn etc.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That might be the case for a particular ball (and Chrome Hex Pearls can be had cheaper, even by the dozen) and if you favour that then fine.

But it is certainly not the case for Pro Vs, nor even the top offerings from Srixon, Bridgestone, TM - or even Callaway (Hex Black Tour).
		
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The only brand i have never seen at a good price it the ProV. The others have all had sub 20 per doz offerings at one time or another.


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## stevie_r (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Im talking urethane covered balls as opposed to hard to scuff surlyn etc.
		
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Still available on ebay for significantly less.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

stevie_r said:



			Still available on ebay for significantly less.
		
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yes with scuffs and pen marks.


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## stevie_r (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			yes with scuffs and pen marks.
		
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The odd one or two may have a scuff or pen mark, the majority don't and still work out significantly cheaper.


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## guest100718 (Feb 13, 2014)

stevie_r said:



			The odd one or two may have a scuff or pen mark, the majority don't and still work out significantly cheaper.
		
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Yep and I am happy to pay a few quid extra for brand new.


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## stevie_r (Feb 13, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Yep and I am happy to pay a few quid extra for brand new.
		
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Crack on mate, I wish more people did, the end result would be more 'one hit wonders' for me to hoover up for pennies


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 13, 2014)

Said it before and I'll no doubt say it again but the 'Cosmetic Blemish' Wilson FG Tours are a steal.  Just got some more in the post and apart from one microscopic black dot on one ball I'm buggered if I can see where any of them is blemished.


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 13, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Said it before and I'll no doubt say it again but the 'Cosmetic Blemish' Wilson FG Tours are a steal.  Just got some more in the post and apart from one microscopic black dot on one ball I'm buggered if I can see where any of them is blemished.
		
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yeah my last batch were the same 100 balls and I can't find a single scratch or scuff anywhere. Sure a few have pen marks and a handful of logos but I reckon 85% are pristine without a single mark or blemish. Can't wait for my back to heal and get out there and hit them.


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