# London Tower Block Fire



## Fish (Jun 14, 2017)

Waking up to some scary images of a tower block fire in West London. 

A fridge on a lower floor being blamed for it starting but the fire quickly engulfed the whole block. 

Lots of people unaccounted for, I can't imagine what it would be like to be trapped at the high level floors with no escape route!

Some very disturbing reports coming through. 

No alarms, no sprinklers, new plastic fascia hasn't helped and many people have complained about the recent refurbishment which included gas pipes in the stairwells!!


----------



## upsidedown (Jun 14, 2017)

Just awful


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2017)

Shocking images and many blaming the new facade. My dear old nan lived in a very similar block in Battersea on the 14th floor and would have stood no chance. Scary images and heart goes out to anyone trapped


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 14, 2017)

Unbelievable tragedy.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2017)

Horrendous viewing, thoughts to all concerned.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2017)

Just awful, hope to god the death toll is miniscule, can't even begin to imagine what those people are going through.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 14, 2017)

Fish said:



			Waking up to some scary images of a tower block fire in West London. 

A fridge on a lower floor being blamed for it starting but the fire quickly engulfed the whole block. 

Lots of people unaccounted for, I can't imagine what it would be like to be trapped at the high level floors with no escape route!

Some very disturbing reports coming through. 

*No alarms, no sprinklers,* new plastic fascia hasn't helped and many people have complained about the recent refurbishment which included gas pipes in the stairwells!!
		
Click to expand...

How can this be in this day and age?  Dreadful.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 14, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Just awful, hope to god the death toll is miniscule, can't even begin to imagine what those people are going through.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly Paul I feel the death toll will be very high; I want to be wrong but I'm not hopeful.  My commiserations to all concerned.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 14, 2017)

Thoughts go out to everyone involved so so sad.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Jun 14, 2017)

Horrible situation, but it can only be rumour and speculation as to what's actually caused this.
h
Having been very close to this early today, I can also sympathise with those residents close by having to also put up with the noise intrusion from the helicopters hovering constantly.


----------



## hovis (Jun 14, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			How can this be in this day and age?  Dreadful.
		
Click to expand...

the fire service has been trying to install sprinklers in tower blocks for years but lack of government funding and tenants refusing to have the unsightly equipment on their ceilings have made things difficult.

tower block fires are the hardest to tackle and the most scary to attend.   

tragic news


----------



## chrisd (Jun 14, 2017)

I've seen some appalling tragedies over the years but this is utterly awful and should never happen in this country these days


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 14, 2017)

I have been watching the news on and off all day and some of the stories and the pictures of the fire are unbelievable and shocking.

Maybe I'm wrong on this bit but I'm quite staggered by the amount of people that have visited this thread and have not posted any thoughts on what's happened
Life goes on and I understand that but for many tonight that is not the case.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I have been watching the news on and off all day and some of the stories and the pictures of the fire are unbelievable and shocking.

Maybe I'm wrong on this bit but I'm quite staggered by the amount of people that have visited this thread and have not posted any thoughts on what's happened
Life goes on and I understand that but for many tonight that is not the case.
		
Click to expand...

Guilty as charged, i just dont know what to post that will make a difference to any one involved. Horrific incident, truly awful for all involved.


----------



## brendy (Jun 14, 2017)

Having no family nor friends in that area still finding it incredibly sad with the wife shedding more than a few tears. Horrific, totally horrific and yet it was preventable to a massive extent. local council should be accountable for not having full safety regs in place (according to news).


----------



## IainP (Jun 14, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I've seen some appalling tragedies over the years but this is utterly awful and should never happen in this country these days
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree.
If half of the stories going around turn out to be true, well I don't know what to say.
The cladding, gas pipes in stairwells etc.
Terrible tragedy


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Guilty as charged, i just dont know what to post that will make a difference to any one involved. Horrific incident, truly awful for all involved.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest murph, am with you. Really did not know what to post earlier on. Was truly horrific to watch. What do you say?
I was polishing my car earlier on listening to it on the radio and I thought wtf are you doin. It just did not feel right fannying about on me car when the poo had hit the fan in London.
I got married the same day as the Bradford fire disaster and it will be a day and date will will last with me forever. I feel this day will be the same.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 14, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Guilty as charged, i just dont know what to post that will make a difference to any one involved. Horrific incident, truly awful for all involved.
		
Click to expand...




Tashyboy said:



			To be honest murph, am with you. Really did not know what to post earlier on. Was truly horrific to watch. What do you say?
I was polishing my car earlier on listening to it on the radio and I thought wtf are you doin. It just did not feel right fannying about on me car when the poo had hit the fan in London.
I got married the same day as the Bradford fire disaster and it will be a day and date will will last with me forever. I feel this day will be the same.
		
Click to expand...

I just find it staggering that someone would look at a thread knowing what its all about then probably reads what some say but cant get some simple words out.

With all the absolute BS that gets written on this site a simple "Thoughts with all concerned" would suffice.

Just like most threads and what we post  that wont effect those effected just being Human should not be difficult.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I just find it staggering that someone would look at a thread knowing what its all about then probably reads what some say but cant get some simple words out.

With all the absolute BS that gets written on this site a simple "Thoughts with all concerned" would suffice.

Just like most threads and what we post  that wont effect those effected just being Human should not be difficult.
		
Click to expand...

Dont know what it's called Poker, but sometimes it is just to close to home for some to say something.

When I was on the driving awareness course the other week. A girl on our table was the designated writer of our teams thoughts. When it came to talking about someone who had been knocked over and Was seriousy injured or killed. She passed the pencil and pad to me and  said " I don't wanna talk about this bit". Summat had gone off in her life and she just shut down.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I just find it staggering that someone would look at a thread knowing what its all about then probably reads what some say but cant get some simple words out.

With all the absolute BS that gets written on this site a simple "Thoughts with all concerned" would suffice.

Just like most threads and what we post  that wont effect those effected just being Human should not be difficult.
		
Click to expand...

I'm fully in the #prayforthem doesn't help at all I'm afraid. 

If i knew or met someone concerned I'd obviously offer condolences. But doing it on a social media is always more for the posters benefit than the victims imo.

but been as you asked the question twice thought I'd offer my opinion. 

As to your point about all the bs written elsewhere. Most posts people have an opinion and/or experience in. This one isn't currently controversial. So won't get the same level of responses.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2017)

Just awful 

My thoughts and prayers this evening are with those who are bereaved or injured, and for those who have missing relatives and friends - and for those who do not yet know who they are missing.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 14, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I'm fully in the #prayforthem doesn't help at all I'm afraid. 

If i knew or met someone concerned I'd obviously offer condolences. But doing it on a social media is always more for the posters benefit than the victims imo.

but been as you asked the question twice thought I'd offer my opinion. 

As to your point about all the bs written elsewhere. Most posts people have an opinion and/or experience in. This one isn't currently controversial. So won't get the same level of responses.
		
Click to expand...

Some fair points.

I certainly don't pray for nothing as I'm not religious at all.

Just watching today and listening to some harrowing stories especially with kids involved and thinking what I would have done and wether I could have done anything just made me realise how vunerable we are that's all.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			Some fair points.

I certainly don't pray for nothing as I'm not religious at all.

Just watching today and listening to some harrowing stories especially with kids involved and thinking what I would have done and wether I could have done anything just made me realise how vunerable we are that's all.
		
Click to expand...

I fully agree, it's horrific. I didn't really commment on the London or Manchester ones in regards to victims either as picturing dead kids or the choices the parents had to make isn't one that fits well with me at all. Commented more on why someone would do such a thing. 

As more facts are released in regards to the structure I'm sure people will discuss the morales of people trying to save money on shortcuts. But from what I've seen briefly, it was suggested that a lot or residents rejected safety measures due to finances or them being unsightly and I don't think that's a great discussion point when victim numbers aren't even confirmed. 

The only thing I will add is fair play to all the service people. I'm sure many health and safety rules have been flouted by their continual work during the last 24 hours. Also saw Jammie Oliver tweet an invitation to all effected to go and get free meals at his local restaurant. Think the guys a tool a lot,of the time. But that was a nice touch.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Jun 14, 2017)

I think it's a bit unfair to criticise anyone just because they don't respond on a forum having read a thread. Sometimes just saying nothing is just as powerful at conveying a persons feelings without the need for text.
The whole event has been truly horrific, and the ramifications will be long and heavy but right now people have to deal with it in their own way. whichever way that is.


----------



## xcore (Jun 14, 2017)

Saw the smoke on the way in to London from the m3 this morning, thoughts are with all that are involved.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 14, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think it's a bit unfair to criticise anyone just because they don't respond on a forum having read a thread. Sometimes just saying nothing is just as powerful at conveying a persons feelings without the need for text.
The whole event has been truly horrific, and the ramifications will be long and heavy but right now people have to deal with it in their own way. whichever way that is.
		
Click to expand...

Not going to agree or disagree with what you write it was a general statement not a personal one.


----------



## Dando (Jun 14, 2017)

I can't even begin to think of what those poor souls were going through. The stories of people jumping reminded me of 9/11 and brought a tear to my eye more than once today


----------



## bigslice (Jun 14, 2017)

Sorry for not posting after reading thus post. Was a bit busy burying my gran then shooting of to hospital to support my mrs after surgery that sonething went wrong in. I did have time to read this post but probably like others feel words are not enough. Very sad day all in to be honest.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2017)

bigslice said:



			Sorry for not posting after reading thus post. Was a bit busy burying my gran then shooting of to hospital to support my mrs after surgery that sonething went wrong in. I did have time to read this post but probably like others feel words are not enough. Very sad day all in to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Hope missis Bigslice is ok me man. Not your best of days. &#128577;


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jun 14, 2017)

Heart goes out to the people involved and lost souls.
I recently done my loft and its mandatory to fit fire alarms / smoke detectors how can an 8.5 million pound refurbishment not include fire alarm and sprinklers.

Very harrowing to hear witnesses saying they could see kids at the Windows but helpless to do anything.
Awfull day.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Jun 15, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			Not going to agree or disagree with what you write it was a general statement not a personal one.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't having a dig, it was more a reply to the modern way of using social media to comment on everything no matter how serious or trivial.


----------



## Swingalot (Jun 15, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sadly Paul I feel the death toll will be very high; I want to be wrong but I'm not hopeful.  My commiserations to all concerned.
		
Click to expand...

I have 3 mates who have been working on this since it started, I fear your right from what they tell me. It sounds truly horrific.

This should not happen, simple as that.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2017)

Corporate manslaughter and jail should be looming...


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 15, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I just find it staggering that someone would look at a thread knowing what its all about then probably reads what some say but cant get some simple words out.

With all the absolute BS that gets written on this site a simple "Thoughts with all concerned" would suffice.

Just like most threads and what we post  that wont effect those effected just being Human should not be difficult.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guilty as charged Tony but really, what is the point? I think those thoughts to myself but I have no need to publicly write them down so a load of guys on a forum can think to themselves "Oh yeah, that D4S is a decent caring guy" Sure, I'm horrified and concerned about what has happened but in the grand scheme of things my thoughts are not really going to be of much comfort to anyone affected in the extremely unlikely event of them actually reading this forum.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself.


----------



## hovis (Jun 15, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I'm guilty as charged Tony but really, what is the point? I think those thoughts to myself but I have no need to publicly write them down so a load of guys on a forum can think to themselves "Oh yeah, that D4S is a decent caring guy" Sure, I'm horrified and concerned about what has happened but in the grand scheme of things my thoughts are not really going to be of much comfort to anyone affected in the extremely unlikely event of them actually reading this forum.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself.
		
Click to expand...

i agree with you there mate.    very stupid to say that people should comment


----------



## IanM (Jun 15, 2017)

Horrible business.

Astonished at some of the political/blame/nonsense on the net about this.  Folk have died. People risked their own lives to try and help.  Amazed how many people talk as if they know the outcome of the Enquiry before it starts.   

Some folk need to have a word with themselves.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Guilty as charged, i just dont know what to post that will make a difference to any one involved. Horrific incident, truly awful for all involved.
		
Click to expand...

+1


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 15, 2017)

Find it sad, no, disgusting the way the politicians are descending onto the scene and trying to score cheap political points and pointing fingers. They haven't even accounted for everyone yet and while I agree that there needs to be a inquiry into how this happened and who was responsible, now isn't the time to be playing the blame game. I hope some of the missing turn up safe and sound somewhere, and that those in hospital, especially the critically ill, manage to make a recovery and win their fight for survival. Seen some terrible pictures from inside a flat http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291227 and hard to think how those at the top had any hope of surviving


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Find it sad, no, disgusting the way the politicians are descending onto the scene and trying to score cheap political points and pointing fingers. They haven't even accounted for everyone yet and while I agree that there needs to be a inquiry into how this happened and who was responsible, now isn't the time to be playing the blame game. I hope some of the missing turn up safe and sound somewhere, and that those in hospital, especially the critically ill, manage to make a recovery and win their fight for survival. Seen some terrible pictures from inside a flat http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291227 and hard to think how those at the top had any hope of surviving
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that's fair, it's absolutely horrendous and as with any major disaster anywhere in the world, countries politicians will visit the scene, a. Too show solidarity with their citizens, b. They are the ones with power and authority who can make things happen almost immediately. 

I've watched all the news reports today and I don't believe I've seen any of them score cheap political points or play the blame game.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jun 15, 2017)

Obviously one can't help but have a great deal of sympathy for those directly affected. How frightening or worrying it must be to be either be involved or to have family/friends involved is simply not imaginable to those of us who don't.  

But as to the rest of it, what can one say? Obviously it should not have happened. But how or why it did happen is not yet known. Those who know what they are dealing with need to investigate to make comment & recommendations to make sure it can't  happen again. But idle speculation and social media blather wont help anyone.


----------



## Golfmmad (Jun 15, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I just find it staggering that someone would look at a thread knowing what its all about then probably reads what some say but cant get some simple words out.

With all the absolute BS that gets written on this site a simple "Thoughts with all concerned" would suffice.

Just like most threads and what we post  that wont effect those effected just being Human should not be difficult.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I don't want to argue as this is not the time, I do think your post was a bit harsh.

I read all posts last night but I felt so so sad for everybody involved and couldn't find any words to say.

But today I feel so angry! Angry that this has happened and should surely have been avoided.

I can't point any fingers at this time- it's too early for blame and we should wait for the outcome of the Public Inquiry.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 15, 2017)

Quite frankly for Thersa May to turn up and just talk to the emergency services sticks in my throat. What the emergency services did was nothing short of heroic. But the community has lost a lot of there own in this tragedy, and she could not see fit to walk and talk amongst them. For a PM who bragged that she would sooner talk to the people rather than appear live on tv is just BS. She should hang her head in shame.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 15, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite frankly for Thersa May to turn up and just talk to the emergency services sticks in my throat. What the emergency services did was nothing short of heroic. But the community has lost a lot of there own in this tragedy, and she could not see fit to walk and talk amongst them. For a PM who bragged that she would sooner talk to the people rather than appear live on tv is just BS. She should hang her head in shame.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe at the time she visited it was, as Downing Street has said, to get a briefing from the emergency services to ensure that they had the resources they need.    Similar to John Prescott in 1999 at the Paddington train crash.  He didn't hang around to glad hand anybody, he got blue-lighted back to Downing Street to get back to work, probably just like Theresa May did.

And if she she should be hanging her head maybe she should have company; Harriet Harman has taken to Twitter to berate her over it.  Political point scoring at this time off the back of a disaster beggars belief.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe at the time she visited it was, as Downing Street has said, to get a briefing from the emergency services to ensure that they had the resources they need.    Similar to John Prescott in 1999 at the Paddington train crash.  He didn't hang around to glad hand anybody, he got blue-lighted back to Downing Street to get back to work, probably just like Theresa May did.

And if she she should be hanging her head maybe she should have company; Harriet Harman has taken to Twitter to berate her over it.  Political point scoring at this time off the back of a disaster beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

Very well said.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

I'm sad and angry, very angry - but the bigger picture is how too many of those with power, control or money view those who don't as less worthy of attention and less worthy of listening to - that they should be happy with what they have got and shouldn't complain - and when they do don;t be surprised if you have difficulties.  I think there will be a big shake-up of of residents and tenants rights, and the responsibility of owners, management companies and letting agents to recognise and deal with complaints or concerns.  

My son has complained for months about the fire escape at his rented accommodation; about residents covering smoke detectors so they can smoke and cook in the rooms (all forbidden); fire doors being kept open; emergency lighting not working etc.

And he has largely been ignored.  And what now?  He rental contract is being terminated with one month notice because he is too noisy and smokes in his room - neither are true.  But others have complained about issues and the management have decided that they have to do something - so that have terminated my sons rental agreement - good riddance nuisance and trouble maker they might well be thinking.  My son is being used as a scapegoat.

And there appears to be nothing I can do for him - or that he can do.  His contract allows this to happen.


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 16, 2017)

Golfmmad said:



			I can't point any fingers at this time- it's too early for blame and we should wait for the outcome of the Public Inquiry.
		
Click to expand...

No. The enquiry must happen with the speed that the fire took hold. Remember that there are thousands of people going to sleep (or trying to) in buildings like this throughout the country.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I have been watching the news on and off all day and some of the stories and the pictures of the fire are unbelievable and shocking.

Maybe I'm wrong on this bit but I'm quite staggered by the amount of people that have visited this thread and have not posted any thoughts on what's happened
Life goes on and I understand that but for many tonight that is not the case.
		
Click to expand...

Guilty as charged... when there is a disaster resulting in a loss of life, especially on a large scale, I find it difficult to articulate what I think is an adequate response. Deeply distressing.

But I picked up the phone and rang our service manager in London. Do we have enough engineers in London to support the brigades with their BA equipment? Do we have stock of BA, thermal imaging and GD equipment we can ship? Do we need to ship a mobile workshop, inc cylinder filling equipment?

Just because someone doesn't post up doesn't mean they aren't affected by a tragedy?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 16, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe at the time she visited it was, as Downing Street has said, to get a briefing from the emergency services to ensure that they had the resources they need.    Similar to John Prescott in 1999 at the Paddington train crash.  He didn't hang around to glad hand anybody, he got blue-lighted back to Downing Street to get back to work, probably just like Theresa May did.

And if she she should be hanging her head maybe she should have company; Harriet Harman has taken to Twitter to berate her over it.  Political point scoring at this time off the back of a disaster beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

If she did have a job to go back to so did Corbyn and the London Mayor Sadiq Khan, who both felt the brunt of the people's feelings. As downing st said? I really don't believe a single word of it, if she was there to make sure they had resources, she has people below her to do that. If it was resources she was interested in. No doubt she was told no we don't have enough resources due to cuts in services.
Re political point scoring, yup Harry Harman should be hanging her head as well


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe at the time she visited it was, as Downing Street has said, to get a briefing from the emergency services to ensure that they had the resources they need.    Similar to John Prescott in 1999 at the Paddington train crash.  He didn't hang around to glad hand anybody, he got blue-lighted *back to Downing Street to get back to work, probably just like Theresa May did.*

And if she she should be hanging her head maybe she should have company; Harriet Harman has taken to Twitter to berate her over it.  Political point scoring at this time off the back of a disaster beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the fact that she had a 3 pm Outlook meeting reminder really cuts it as a reason not to 'glad hand' (or I would have said hear their concerns and feelings') the victims/community. She is the leader of this country, and leading involves facing up to some nasty things at times.  Yes, I am sure a few people would probably of unleashed a volley of abuse at her and her advisers would have decided that footage of that would not have played very well on the 10 pm news.  But at times that is what leadership is, front it up, don't hide away as she is getting a nasty reputation for doing just that.  And the same for Prescott if that is what he did.  Shameful spineless behaviour. 

And it ain't just yoghurt knitters saying this  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ow-humanity-grenfell-tower-visit-saysmichael/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2017)

Didn't know what to say really about it all and still don't but I'm utterly appalled that people are using a tradegy as some political point scoring exercise- should be utterly ashamed of yourselves.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm not sure the fact that she had a 3 pm Outlook meeting reminder really cuts it as a reason not to 'glad hand' (or I would have said hear their concerns and feelings') the victims/community. She is the leader of this country, and leading involves facing up to some nasty things at times.  Yes, I am sure a few people would probably of unleashed a volley of abuse at her and her advisers would have decided that footage of that would not have played very well on the 10 pm news.  But at times that is what leadership is, front it up, don't hide away as she is getting a nasty reputation for doing just that.  And the same for Prescott if that is what he did.  Shameful spineless behaviour. 

And it ain't just yoghurt knitters saying this  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ow-humanity-grenfell-tower-visit-saysmichael/

Click to expand...

Please can you stop this, people are still missing and probably dead.  Political opportunity is nasty at a time like this.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2017)

Maybe May was going back to put into action some of the things she learned during her visit. Too many people are far too quick to judge because, a) it suits their political agenda, and b) they don't look beyond their own prejudices.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 16, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn't know what to say really about it all and still don't but I'm utterly appalled that people are using a tradegy as some political point scoring exercise- should be utterly ashamed of yourselves.
		
Click to expand...


Point scoring.... Are you sure?

I'd say its folk showing some empathy, for the understandable anger from many of those more closely involved....


FWIW  Holier than thou counts for nowt, really, at these times...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Point scoring.... Are you sure?

I'd say its folk showing some empathy, for the understandable anger from many of those more closely involved....


FWIW  Holier than thou counts for nowt, really, at these times...
		
Click to expand...

Yes point scoring and a number of people have highlighted it - people have died , many others are missing with worries of many passing away and some are more interested in the respective actions of Pm and Corbyn and passing judgement based on pictures 

Maybe just for once it would be good if people can leave any political slant at the door during a very sad time.!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes point scoring and a number of people have highlighted it - people have died , many others are missing with worries of many passing away and some are more interested in the respective actions of Pm and Corbyn and passing judgement based on pictures 

Maybe just for once it would be good if people can leave any political slant at the door during a very sad time.!
		
Click to expand...

Which is fine in general - except many of those directly affected by this disaster want some answers from our politicians NOW.  And if the government or local council are not providing the information the people want, that the people are not at least partially comforted, then it is the responsibility of others - including other political parties - to press and make the point on behalf of these people.  

This is not political points scoring - this is standing up for the poorer and very dispossessed of our society - because those in power and in control seem to have ceased listening to that constituency.


----------



## hovis (Jun 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is fine in general - except many of those directly affected by this disaster want some answers from our politicians NOW.  And if the government or local council are not providing the information the people want, that the people are not at least partially comforted, then it is the responsibility of others - including other political parties - to press and make the point on behalf of these people.  

This is not political points scoring - this is standing up for the poorer and very dispossessed of our society - because those in power and in control seem to have ceased listening to that constituency.
		
Click to expand...

its easy for people to say you shouldn't be political in times like this.  but the truth is this incident wouldn't have happened if Brandon lewis didn't quash calls for sprinklers to be mandatory on all buildings over 4 floors.  he said it would cost too much money.  which would be ok if they then didn't give themselves a 10% pay rise the following week. 

one possitve outcome from this disaster is local authorities will find it almost impossible to deny future sprinkler system initiatives


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Listening to Maajid Nawaz on LBC taking calls on this, and almost 100% from the ethnic British community.

And I feel they give me some hope for the UK - hearing their love, compassion, humanity and despair - their caring for each other - their anger at being British yet living in a society that allows this to happen.  

*'They' are Us *.  These are the British people many wish to see the back of, or many fewer of - when in fact in so many communities across the country they are in fact the holders and standard bearers of what we all together as British hold as important.  

Precisely the opposite of what the 'haters' would like us to believe, and in stark contrast with the very un-British attitudes of so many British who would claim ownership of these values and a wish to protect them - while simultaneously undermining them.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 16, 2017)

hovis said:



			one possitve outcome from this disaster is local authorities will find it almost impossible to deny future sprinkler system initiatives
		
Click to expand...


Hopefully....

The leader of the local authority was trying to blame lack of sprinklers with the residents... As there had been no demand for them during refurbishment... Now, I'd be thinking this is totally a decision for block owners/management to be taking...


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*'They' are Us *.  These are the British people many wish to see the back of, or many fewer of - when in fact in so many communities across the country they are in fact the holders and standard bearers of what we all together as British hold as important.  

Precisely the opposite of what the 'haters' would like us to believe, and in stark contrast with the very un-British attitudes of so many British who would claim ownership of these values and a wish to protect them - while simultaneously undermining them.
		
Click to expand...

I don't want to take this thread off topic but I can't recall anyone on here saying they want to get rid of the people above. There is a huge difference between immigrants and ethnic groups that want to integrate and those that want to carry out vile attacks on innocent people. It is the latter that people want to 'get rid of'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't want to take this thread off topic but I can't recall anyone on here saying they want to get rid of the people above. There is a huge difference between immigrants and ethnic groups that want to integrate and those that want to carry out vile attacks on innocent people. It is the latter that people want to 'get rid of'.
		
Click to expand...

I wish that you were correct but I am not sure that you are.  Some people seem not that fussy.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wish that you were correct but I am not sure that you are.  Some people seem not that fussy.
		
Click to expand...

The people that you refer to as not that fussy in my eyes are ignorant and no matter what will always be ignorant. 

I think D4S has hit the nail on the head. 

Re the tragic events that took place. I have been astounded at the wide variety of races, religions and countrys that the people have come from, that have been both directly and indirectly affected by this. If there is one thing that has come home to me is that a multi cultural society can work. The way in which the same people have pulled together without any political direction has been nothing short of astounding. It has been a true "British/ multicultural" response.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 16, 2017)

Theresa May announces a Â£5 million aid package, and at the same time protestors storm the Council in anger. Seems the locals want answers not money. Could well start to turn ugly


----------



## richy (Jun 16, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Theresa May announces a Â£5 million aid package, and at the same time protestors storm the Council in anger. Seems the locals want answers not money. Could well start to turn ugly
		
Click to expand...

Already ugly scenes outside of Grenfell. Footage of residents kicking off as TM didn't speak to any locals, just showed her face and the ushered to her car.


----------



## User62651 (Jun 16, 2017)

Well heeled establishment types go to a working class area to 'sympathise'  - never works does it? PM damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. HM looked very uncomfortable as people shrieking in anguish nearby but fair play she fronted up, not sure how it helps though - horrific circumstances really. No easy answers but short term sort housing for displaced, sort counselling for those losing loved ones, let the police and fire do their jobs and stop rushing them for conclusions, push hard for a quick public enquiry though fear it will be an expensive cover up as usual.
Terrible terrible run of events in last few weeks in the UK, don't envy the PM tbh.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wish that you were correct but I am not sure that you are.  Some people seem not that fussy.
		
Click to expand...

You have quite a strange mind.  Why on earth have you brought racial hatred into this thread.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Jun 16, 2017)

Pokerjoke made the comment about people not responding to a thread having read it, but apart from each individuals feelings and way of dealing with something, isn't the way this (and many other) threads has descended into bickering and argueing just gives another reason why many may not respond. 
A certain few who have their own set agenda and  refuse to  see another point of view or side just put people off bothering to participate.

Back on track, I still havent fully come to terms with the whole thing. However I think it's way to early to be looking for the blame, at least until the building has been fully checked and everyone within accounted for. 
It has been a totally harrowing time for all those involved, and I thank my lucky stars I am only a spectator to the whole event.
 My admiration for the emergency services cannot be quantified, everyone one of them is a hero.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			The people that you refer to as not that fussy in my eyes are ignorant and no matter what will always be ignorant. 

I think D4S has hit the nail on the head. 

Re the tragic events that took place. I have been astounded at the wide variety of races, religions and countrys that the people have come from, that have been both directly and indirectly affected by this. If there is one thing that has come home to me is that a multi cultural society can work. The way in which the same people have pulled together without any political direction has been nothing short of astounding. It has been a true "British/ multicultural" response.
		
Click to expand...

good post


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You have quite a strange mind.  Why on earth have you brought racial hatred into this thread.
		
Click to expand...

You read too much into my post.  But as you mentioned it - Maajid Nawaz read yesterday messages he was being sent when on air that were full of racial hatred 'not a white face in sight'; 'why all the headscarves' were of the least offensive type.  So unfortunately it is there - even in the context of such a disaster there are some out there who cannot see past their racist noses to the human catastrophe that is Grenfell Tower.


----------



## drdel (Jun 16, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn't know what to say really about it all and still don't but I'm utterly appalled that people are using a tradegy as some political point scoring exercise- should be utterly ashamed of yourselves.
		
Click to expand...

I agree totally.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You read too much into my post.  But as you mentioned it - Maajid Nawaz read yesterday messages he was being sent when on air that were full of racial hatred 'not a white face in sight'; 'why all the headscarves' were of the least offensive type.  So unfortunately it is there - even in the context of such a disaster there are some out there who cannot see past their racist noses to the human catastrophe that is Grenfell Tower.
		
Click to expand...

This post saddens me. You tar the majority with the feathers of the few.


----------



## Trojan615 (Jun 17, 2017)

Having spent most of the last two days on site, the situation in unimaginable. I've seen many many things in the last 17 years and the sights from the last two days are like nothing I've ever seen. 
The photos don't compare to the scale of the situation and having spoken to some colleagues who were there on the night, having phones handed to them by relatives and trying to reassure people trapped inside as best they could.... those people have returned back to work there again today and many will tomorrow.
The painstaking, terrifying, respectful and heart wrenching job of recovery continues on now, after the politicians have gone and the promises made some very, very brave people ( not me ) will continue to do what they must, because if they don't.... who will... and mostly it's done without thanks, fanfare or adequate reward. 
In the most part, the local Comunity have been amazing, all groups and faiths have truly come together, I do however despair at the rent a mob who were evident in trying to hijack those grieving and desperate for news to suit their own need for attention.
After getting home and another long shower,  I sat in the garden with a cold beer and watched the golf.. thankful for my family asleep and a break before heading back again. A great many people are not so lucky. The only observation I will make ( in each major incident, be it this blaze, demonstrations or terrorist attacks, one emergency service takes the lead role and the majority of the work / expertise, but all have a specific role ) is that after the incidents so far this year , we are all struggling to manage demand and are very, very tired...


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 17, 2017)

Hats off to you mate, don't think anyone of us looking from a distance can imagine what it's like.

Utmost respect


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 17, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



			Having spent most of the last two days on site, the situation in unimaginable. I've seen many many things in the last 17 years and the sights from the last two days are like nothing I've ever seen. 
The photos don't compare to the scale of the situation and having spoken to some colleagues who were there on the night, having phones handed to them by relatives and trying to reassure people trapped inside as best they could.... those people have returned back to work there again today and many will tomorrow.
The painstaking, terrifying, respectful and heart wrenching job of recovery continues on now, after the politicians have gone and the promises made some very, very brave people ( not me ) will continue to do what they must, because if they don't.... who will... and mostly it's done without thanks, fanfare or adequate reward. 
In the most part, the local Comunity have been amazing, all groups and faiths have truly come together, I do however despair at the rent a mob who were evident in trying to hijack those grieving and desperate for news to suit their own need for attention.
After getting home and another long shower,  I sat in the garden with a cold beer and watched the golf.. thankful for my family asleep and a break before heading back again. A great many people are not so lucky. The only observation I will make ( in each major incident, be it this blaze, demonstrations or terrorist attacks, one emergency service takes the lead role and the majority of the work / expertise, but all have a specific role ) is that after the incidents so far this year , we are all struggling to manage demand and are very, very tired...
		
Click to expand...


One of the most sincere, honest and respected posts I have read on here for a long long time, Fragger wrote the other week about us being a " dysfunctional" family on here. I could not agree with him more. Yourself like me and others have found that writing about our " crap" days just helps a little bit. It is something that others don't understand. But Dysfunctional describes all that.
At the end of this catastrophe I hope you can find the strength and experience both good and bad to help you in future unsavoury events.
Many thanks Tashyboy


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 17, 2017)

As long as I live I will never understand why police, fire, doctors, nurses, etc do not get paid more for what they do.

Everyone knows it and yet the government does nothing about it. I'm sure they could find the money from somewhere so that the men and women in these roles get what they thoroughly deserve.


----------



## dewsweeper (Jun 17, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			One of the most sincere, honest and respected posts I have read on here for a long long time, Fragger wrote the other week about us being a " dysfunctional" family on here. I could not agree with him more. Yourself like me and others have found that writing about our " crap" days just helps a little bit. It is something that others don't understand. But Dysfunctional describes all that.
At the end of this catastrophe I hope you can find the strength and experience both good and bad to help you in future unsavoury events.
Many thanks Tashyboy
		
Click to expand...

Two good posts.
As a fireman for 31 years in London and Cheshire I have seen a few terrible tragedies but nothing on this scale.
I frequent a London Fire Brigade Retirees site and I can assure you all firefighters ,retired and still operational wish you the strength to do your job over the coming weeks.
Trojan what ever your duties are I wish you well.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 17, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



			Having spent most of the last two days on site, the situation in unimaginable. I've seen many many things in the last 17 years and the sights from the last two days are like nothing I've ever seen. 
The photos don't compare to the scale of the situation and having spoken to some colleagues who were there on the night, having phones handed to them by relatives and trying to reassure people trapped inside as best they could.... those people have returned back to work there again today and many will tomorrow.
The painstaking, terrifying, respectful and heart wrenching job of recovery continues on now, after the politicians have gone and the promises made some very, very brave people ( not me ) will continue to do what they must, because if they don't.... who will... and mostly it's done without thanks, fanfare or adequate reward. 
In the most part, the local Comunity have been amazing, all groups and faiths have truly come together, I do however despair at the rent a mob who were evident in trying to hijack those grieving and desperate for news to suit their own need for attention.
After getting home and another long shower,  I sat in the garden with a cold beer and watched the golf.. thankful for my family asleep and a break before heading back again. A great many people are not so lucky. The only observation I will make ( in each major incident, be it this blaze, demonstrations or terrorist attacks, one emergency service takes the lead role and the majority of the work / expertise, but all have a specific role ) is that after the incidents so far this year , we are all struggling to manage demand and are very, very tired...
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2017)

Hat's off to you Trojan, your colleagues and your families, I hope you are all getting the support you require now and for the foreseeable future.


----------



## shivas irons (Jun 17, 2017)

Greedy contractors,stupid council.Defies belief :angry:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...shment-used-cheaper-cladding-tenants-accused/


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jun 17, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			As long as I live *I will never understand why police, fire, doctors, nurses, etc do not get paid more* for what they do.

Everyone knows it and yet the government does nothing about it. I'm sure they could find the money from somewhere so that the men and women in these roles get what they thoroughly deserve.
		
Click to expand...




bluewolf said:



*Thank you.*

Click to expand...

Those two words will often mean more than any financial compensation.  We do (did) it out of a sense of duty and a desire to help others and to know you have been appreciated for it is reward enough.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 17, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Those two words will often mean more than any financial compensation.  We do (did) it out of a sense of duty and a desire to help others and to know you have been appreciated for it is reward enough.
		
Click to expand...

As someone with family in the Police and the NHS I also know just how rare it is &#128077;


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 17, 2017)

i think that the services are almost catergorised (wrongly) as manual jobs. And they generally pay less than those based in academic grounds. 

A scaffolder will earn less than a foreman, but will do more work.

i don't know pay schemes but I'd imagine more work is done by a teacher than a head,yet the pay won't reflect that. It's not a justification. Just how a business (and government is one) will evaluate its assets (staff).  

I would imagine they would expect to be able to make a policemen/woman/officer??? From a wide variety of of people with differentiating backgrounds with education not being the most important aspect.  

We are told education is vital, uni fees wrong etc. But with the right degree it does open paths to good wages. Do you need a degree to be a policeman/fireman?

unfortunately on a balance sheet, they just don't bring enough to the table for massive wages. Goodwill is worth how much?

Thats not to say lots of people in certain roles don't deserve more wages. But the role and wage is clear for those that go for a job and they have to decide if it's the career they wish to follow. 

I can understand then outrage when comparing politicians wages. But if the pay was swapped. Would everyone outraged be willing to pay the extra tax it would cost to fund such a change?

massive respect to all working tirelessly through this current situation. This wasn't meant as a rant agaisnt you at all. Just reasoned logic.

just did a google. 650 politicians on 75k. Costs us Â£49m per annum.


There are 35k full time fireman. Raising 1,225,000,000 per year to find their wage increase would come from where? The the police and nurses. Admirable idea but totally unrealistic.


----------



## bobmac (Jun 17, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			just did a google. 650 politicians on 75k. Costs us Â£49m per annum.
		
Click to expand...

Not forgetting the *AVERAGE* expenses at over Â£160,000 per year EACH
So Â£235,000 X 650MPs = Â£152,750,000

Qualifications needed to become an MP?
OVER 18


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 17, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			just did a google. 650 politicians on 75k. Costs us Â£49m per annum.


There are 35k full time fireman. Raising 1,225,000,000 per year to find their wage increase would come from where? The the police and nurses. Admirable idea but totally unrealistic.
		
Click to expand...

Rather depends on your priorities I suppose. 

I seem to recall being told that we had to find more money for bankers and politicians if we wanted to attract the best people. It looks somewhat like we aren't that bothered about the Calibre of our nurses, police, firemen etc. 

I know which group I'd rather trust with my life.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			i think that the services are almost catergorised (wrongly) as manual jobs. And they generally pay less than those based in academic grounds. 

A scaffolder will earn less than a foreman, but will do more work.

i don't know pay schemes but I'd imagine more work is done by a teacher than a head,yet the pay won't reflect that. It's not a justification. Just how a business (and government is one) will evaluate its assets (staff).  

I would imagine they would expect to be able to make a policemen/woman/officer??? From a wide variety of of people with differentiating backgrounds with education not being the most important aspect.  

We are told education is vital, uni fees wrong etc. But with the right degree it does open paths to good wages. Do you need a degree to be a policeman/fireman?

unfortunately on a balance sheet, they just don't bring enough to the table for massive wages. Goodwill is worth how much?

Thats not to say lots of people in certain roles don't deserve more wages. But the role and wage is clear for those that go for a job and they have to decide if it's the career they wish to follow. 

I can understand then outrage when comparing politicians wages. But if the pay was swapped. Would everyone outraged be willing to pay the extra tax it would cost to fund such a change?

massive respect to all working tirelessly through this current situation. This wasn't meant as a rant agaisnt you at all. Just reasoned logic.

just did a google. 650 politicians on 75k. Costs us Â£49m per annum.


There are 35k full time fireman. Raising 1,225,000,000 per year to find their wage increase would come from where? The the police and nurses. Admirable idea but totally unrealistic.
		
Click to expand...

People have always made these comparisons to support everyone getting more.  IMO our services are fairly compensated with salary and pensions but we would all like to pay them more , along with Doctors, Nurses, Armed Service personnel and so on.   MP's remuneration is now regulated by an independent body so they don't award themselves pay increases.

I guess we have to face up to the fact that we are a country in debt big time and need to sort that out, cheap money to borrow will be a thing of the past.  Critisizing Austerity is the current bandwagon that has no realistic alternative solution. We currently have to borrow to pay these wages so how longer can we do this without increasing it.  So we need a bigger cake to share out and that cake will need to be bigger every year.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 17, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Rather depends on your priorities I suppose. 

I seem to recall being told that we had to find more money for bankers and politicians if we wanted to attract the best people. It looks somewhat like we aren't that bothered about the Calibre of our nurses, police, firemen etc. 

I know which group I'd rather trust with my life.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying that they didn't deserve more wages.simply that there is no way to cover it.

Just to cover the fire service at mp  salary we would need to find more money than we have. Then the police and nurses too. Then the teachers would be next. And the armed forces.

All of a sudden we have no money or country to protect. As We'd be bankrupt. 

I fully accept they do a fantastic job. But there is a salary on offer when taking the job.

It's the same when people cry scandal over footballers (but rarely actors). It's market forces and the goodwill that our servicepeile generate doesn't have a big financial figure attached to it.


----------



## Tarkus1212 (Jun 17, 2017)

Scrap the replacement for Trident and put that money towards the people that really keep us safe and well instead of giving us protection from some imaginary invader.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Scrap the replacement for Trident and put that money towards the people that really keep us safe and well instead of giving us protection from some imaginary invader.
		
Click to expand...

Self defeating policy when you take into account the thousands of jobs that would be lost increasing the welfare budget by Billions.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Self defeating policy when you take into account the thousands of jobs that would be lost increasing the welfare budget by Billions.
		
Click to expand...

Why? Are there no other jobs? 

Also, if you increase the wages of the public sector then you increase their spending power, therefore increasing tax revenue. Trickle up economics.....


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Why? Are there no other jobs? 

Also, if you increase the wages of the public sector then you increase their spending power, therefore increasing tax revenue. Trickle up economics.....
		
Click to expand...

Not of that pay packet in Plymouth and Rosyth


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not of that pay packet in Plymouth and Rosyth
		
Click to expand...

Didn't appear to be much of a consideration when the Tories decimated the pits..


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Didn't appear to be much of a consideration when the Tories decimated the pits..
		
Click to expand...

A view but not one shared by my family who had many generations down the pit, but that's another thread.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 17, 2017)

Can we keep on topic please
Ta


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Why? Are there no other jobs? 

*Also, if you increase the wages of the public sector then you increase their spending power, therefore increasing tax revenue. Trickle up economics..*...
		
Click to expand...

But that's not correct.  If someones wage is paid from Public Taxation then any tax they pay is only returning a part of someone elses taxation.  It's false economics.


----------



## Wilson (Jun 17, 2017)

This is a terrible tragedy, I can't even begin to imagine what the victims, and the suvivors, went through. I hope the inquiry is quick, transparent, and it brings around changes that will stop this from happening again.

I'm confused as to why there isn't more anger being directed towards the ALMO, they will control the budgets, they appointed the contractor, they would have signed off the work - they may have even specified the materials to be used. I read earlier that the refurbishment was originally tendered out at Â£10m, but the contractor then pulled out as they couldn't deliver, they then re-tendered and Rydons won it at Â£8.5m! if this is true, questions needs to be asked about how/why this was signed off.

The response from the public, in terms of donations & offers of assistance, has been great, I'm led to believe they have some warehouse space as of Monday, and will be taking donations again. Unfortunately, it also brings out the bad side of some people, with accusations of it being deliberate, and people using it as an opportunity to push political & racial agendas.

Let's hope we never see a tragedy like this again.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2017)

Wilson said:



			This is a terrible tragedy, I can't even begin to imagine what the victims, and the suvivors, went through. I hope the inquiry is quick, transparent, and it brings around changes that will stop this from happening again.



Let's hope we never see a tragedy like this again.
		
Click to expand...


As I understand it, one of the main recommendations from the Camberwell fire inquest was, installing sprinklers in all similar tower blocks... As Grenfell was recently refurbished I can't really understand why this wasn't top of the list...


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jun 18, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Why? Are there no other jobs? 

Also, if you increase the wages of the public sector then you increase their spending power, therefore increasing tax revenue. Trickle up economics.....
		
Click to expand...

are all Politicians just well paid public sector workers after all they are paid from the public purse.
why are they a special case when it comes to pay rises "independent body"?
They should lead by example and take the same rises as the rest of the public sector.
They also know the salary when going for office.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Scrap the replacement for Trident and put that money towards the people that really keep us safe and well instead of giving us protection from some imaginary invader.
		
Click to expand...

And why can't we have both?

Honestly think that this country is now beginning to see the fruits of successive governments cuts cuts cuts. The police, NHS, ambulance service and councils have been banging on about it for years. They are all saying we cannot provide an adequate service with what you are giving us. Coz a majority of us don't work in the police, NHS, ambulance service, councils etc etc etc. Obviously it's just crap coz it don't directly affect us. But does it directly affect us. If there is one thing that pricks our conscience it is the things we actually see on telly/media. In my life time, Bradford fire disaster, Hillsborough, London tower block, 911 and unfortunately ave probably missed out another dozen are tragic examples.
What happend should never ever of happened. But it did. The job done by the fire brigade was just epic. The aftermath by this government was atrocious and no wonder people are bogged off. I am certain that were this event to of happend the week before the election Theresa May and her party would now be the opposition.
A generation of cuts and cheapest quote now gets the job, is now producing dire consequences for all of us.


----------



## hovis (Jun 18, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			As I understand it, one of the main recommendations from the Camberwell fire inquest was, installing sprinklers in all similar tower blocks... As Grenfell was recently refurbished I can't really understand why this wasn't top of the list...
		
Click to expand...

the price to retro fit sprinklers is massive.  we have 6 tower blocks on our patch and the council simply can't afford it.


----------



## hovis (Jun 18, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			And why can't we have both?

Honestly think that this country is now beginning to see the fruits of successive governments cuts cuts cuts. The police, NHS, ambulance service and councils have been banging on about it for years. They are all saying we cannot provide an adequate service with what you are giving us. Coz a majority of us don't work in the police, NHS, ambulance service, councils etc etc etc. Obviously it's just crap coz it don't directly affect us. But does it directly affect us. If there is one thing that pricks our conscience it is the things we actually see on telly/media. In my life time, Bradford fire disaster, Hillsborough, London tower block, 911 and unfortunately ave probably missed out another dozen are tragic examples.
What happend should never ever of happened. But it did. The job done by the fire brigade was just epic. The aftermath by this government was atrocious and no wonder people are bogged off. I am certain that were this event to of happend the week before the election Theresa May and her party would now be the opposition.
A generation of cuts and cheapest quote now gets the job, is now producing dire consequences for all of us.
		
Click to expand...

unfortunately the majority of the public don't know just how dire the situation is with the emergency services.  we turned upto a car crash persons trapped the other day after 25 minutes.  it should be less than 8.  we also have paramedics based at our station.  one of the guys was called to a code red heart attack in Coventry!!! thats 21 miles door to door.  the bloke died.  all these things are happening right under you nose and most have no idea until they're in a moment of need

one thing that is currently going on under the radar is the government are making the fire service attend marauding terrorist incidents.   not for fire purposes but to patch up casualties that the terrorist have created whilst on their rampage.   what training are they giving us???? a stab vest and 18 hours Internet based trauma training.  personally if i was lying on the floor I'd like to see a paramedic


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 18, 2017)

hovis said:



			the price to retro fit sprinklers is massive.  we have 6 tower blocks on our patch and the council simply can't afford it.
		
Click to expand...


There are some instances that the cost, whatever it is, has to be afforded...


----------



## Tarkus1212 (Jun 18, 2017)

hovis said:



			the price to retro fit sprinklers is massive.  we have 6 tower blocks on our patch and the council simply can't afford it.
		
Click to expand...

The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was projecting reserves of Â£42m for the end of 2016-17.


----------



## hovis (Jun 18, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was projecting reserves of Â£42m for the end of 2016-17.
		
Click to expand...

yes. Staffordshire has done the same and i think its utterly appalling.   however, the mayor did tell me that part of their obligation to the county is to have x amount in reserve for dire need.   so i see that as they have money to spend once the people are dead but none to stop them getting "dead". 
 as bad as it might sound the fire service will use this incident to ride its own agenda in getting sprinklers fitted to all buildings over 18 meters.  Councils will find it difficult to say no.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			And why can't we have both?

Honestly think that this country is now beginning to see the fruits of successive governments cuts cuts cuts. The police, NHS, ambulance service and councils have been banging on about it for years. They are all saying we cannot provide an adequate service with what you are giving us. Coz a majority of us don't work in the police, NHS, ambulance service, councils etc etc etc. Obviously it's just crap coz it don't directly affect us. But does it directly affect us. If there is one thing that pricks our conscience it is the things we actually see on telly/media. In my life time, Bradford fire disaster, Hillsborough, London tower block, 911 and unfortunately ave probably missed out another dozen are tragic examples.
What happend should never ever of happened. But it did. The job done by the fire brigade was just epic. The aftermath by this government was atrocious and no wonder people are bogged off. I am certain that were this event to of happend the week before the election Theresa May and her party would now be the opposition.
A generation of cuts and cheapest quote now gets the job, is now producing dire consequences for all of us.
		
Click to expand...

Fair post. And if they continue as they are state education is next as it is quickly being run into the ground.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2017)

hovis said:



			unfortunately the majority of the public don't know just how dire the situation is with the emergency services.  we turned upto a car crash persons trapped the other day after 25 minutes.  it should be less than 8.  we also have paramedics based at our station.  one of the guys was called to a code red heart attack in Coventry!!! thats 21 miles door to door.  the bloke died.  all these things are happening right under you nose and most have no idea until they're in a moment of need

one thing that is currently going on under the radar is the government are making the fire service attend marauding terrorist incidents.   not for fire purposes but to patch up casualties that the terrorist have created whilst on their rampage.   what training are they giving us???? a stab vest and 18 hours Internet based trauma training.  personally if i was lying on the floor I'd like to see a paramedic
		
Click to expand...

Hovis, irrespective of political allegiance, And I don't have one. I have always been a floating voter. So I will say it how I feel it is. I have spoken to Prison officers and there stories are scary re lowdham grange where my son worked. My daughter is a Bobby. I can only thank the Lord I don't live in Sheffield as the cover is atrocious. I worked alongside firemen who covered sth Yorks/ north Notts via Harworth station and it was not comfy listening to there stories. 
The one common denominator was that management were in place and were nodding donkeys, knowing full well that if they did not do it ( company policy, cut costs,do as was told) then someone else would do it, even if they knew it was wrong. Services have been slashed, standards are not what they should be and Joe public is now beginning to see the results of said cuts.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 18, 2017)

hovis said:



			...the fire service will use this incident to ride its own agenda in getting sprinklers fitted to all buildings over 18 meters.  Councils will find it difficult to say no.
		
Click to expand...

Good!

Though the question of how they are/can be 'tested' is ever-present!


----------



## Fade and Die (Jun 18, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Good!

Though the question of how they are/can be 'tested' is ever-present!
		
Click to expand...


Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc.  We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly Â£55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.


----------



## hovis (Jun 18, 2017)

Fade and Die said:



			Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc.  We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly Â£55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.
		
Click to expand...

sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth.  sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression.  i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems.   as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.


----------



## drdel (Jun 18, 2017)

There are reports that the residents objected to the installation of sprinklers


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2017)

hovis said:



			sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth.  sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression.  i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems.   as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.
		
Click to expand...

This block is not just social housing.  There are some owned flats so I don't think this comes under the heading "socially deprived".


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2017)

Fade and Die said:



			Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc.  We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly Â£55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.
		
Click to expand...

While you may be correct, your entire post was irrelevant to SPRINKLERS!

@Old Skier... You need to re-read Hovis's post! The 'social housing' bit was an 'add-on' point (...many in our area...), not the main one!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			While you may be correct, your entire post was irrelevant to SPRINKLERS!

@Old Skier... You need to re-read Hovis's post! The 'social housing' bit was an 'add-on' point (...many in our area...), not the main one!
		
Click to expand...

I responded to the deprived area statement which I don't believe this is and the flats are a mix of owned and social housing.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2017)

drdel said:



			There are reports that the residents objected to the installation of sprinklers
		
Click to expand...


Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures... 

I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place...


----------



## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures... 

*I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place..*.
		
Click to expand...

I think a lot of tower blocks are 100% electric though.  I've read that this block was originally 100% electric supply only but residents in 2005 wanted gas and in 2009 it was agreed to add gas, this meant gas pipes were then run up stairwells and into corridors to access the flats where boilers were all then fitted.

Surely any building (especially flats) not designed to have a gas supply can't then just run pipes in these areas which would then cause even more safety breaches when a fire takes place?


----------



## Fade and Die (Jun 19, 2017)

hovis said:



			sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth.  sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression.  i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems.   as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.
		
Click to expand...

I was not saying that Sprinklers systems are not very effective, i know they are especially in offices, sheltered housing and certain residential blocks. I just don't think they would work in these kind of social housing blocks......... As soon as the little crew sitting on the stairs smoking and spitting all evening realise what a laugh setting off a sprinkler head is that will be the end of it. The system will be decommissioned like the Fire alarm system i was referring to. 
I have installed Fire alarms and AOV (smoke vent) systems in blocks throughout Tower Hamlets and Barking & Dagenham and I know from experience the problems with certain (not all) residents.

@Old Skier just because a lot of people have exercised there right to buy it doesn't make it any less of a social housing scheme. Many of the flats that are owned have been turned into HMOs by the leaseholder and are often the most neglected in the block.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

Lots of swearing alert.

[video=youtube_share;cft52h89roU]https://youtu.be/cft52h89roU[/video]


----------



## hovis (Jun 19, 2017)

Fade and Die said:



			I was not saying that Sprinklers systems are not very effective, i know they are especially in offices, sheltered housing and certain residential blocks. I just don't think they would work in these kind of social housing blocks......... As soon as the little crew sitting on the stairs smoking and spitting all evening realise what a laugh setting off a sprinkler head is that will be the end of it. The system will be decommissioned like the Fire alarm system i was referring to. 
I have installed Fire alarms and AOV (smoke vent) systems in blocks throughout Tower Hamlets and Barking & Dagenham and I know from experience the problems with certain (not all) residents.

@Old Skier just because a lot of people have exercised there right to buy it doesn't make it any less of a social housing scheme. Many of the flats that are owned have been turned into HMOs by the leaseholder and are often the most neglected in the block.
		
Click to expand...

your wrong.  they do work in these situations.   if you saying they wont work just because they will be abused then that doesn't stop the effectiveness of the sprinklers does it.   also sprinklers are only to be installed in the actual flats not in protected staircases.

i have never known of a vandalised sprinkler system anywhere in Staffordshire in 11 years but have attended multiple flat fire's where sprinklers would have saved the property.   if they do happen to be activated by dick heads for a laugh now and then that's ok with me.  its a small price to pay


----------



## hovis (Jun 19, 2017)

Fish said:



			I think a lot of tower blocks are 100% electric though.  I've read that this block was originally 100% electric supply only but residents in 2005 wanted gas and in 2009 it was agreed to add gas, this meant gas pipes were then run up stairwells and into corridors to access the flats where boilers were all then fitted.

Surely any building (especially flats) not designed to have a gas supply can't then just run pipes in these areas which would then cause even more safety breaches when a fire takes place?
		
Click to expand...

flats that have had a retro fit of gas have a auto shut off valve should the pipes become compromised. 

the gas pipes themselves are fed into the flats via the utilities ducts that are there anyhow


----------



## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

hovis said:



			flats that have had a retro fit of gas have a auto shut off valve should the pipes become compromised. 

*the gas pipes themselves are fed into the flats via the utilities ducts that are there anyhow*

Click to expand...

I don't think that was the case in this scenario as residents have gone on record stating that 22mm gas pipes are/were running exposed up all the stairwells and then branched into each corridor and subsequent flat.

Maybe it was done like that because it was cheaper at the time?


----------



## drdel (Jun 19, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures... 

I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place...
		
Click to expand...

I think 50% would not allow access to their properties to permit installation.


----------



## hovis (Jun 19, 2017)

drdel said:



			I think 50% would not allow access to their properties to permit installation.
		
Click to expand...

this is the problem with the 6 tower blocks in our patch.  the council can enforce it on them but it has to go through the courts.  up until now the council wouldn't.   i have a feeling things might change in that respect


----------



## Fade and Die (Jun 19, 2017)

hovis said:



			your wrong.  they do work in these situations.   if you saying they wont work just because they will be abused then that doesn't stop the effectiveness of the sprinklers does it.   also sprinklers are only to be installed in the actual flats not in protected staircases.

i have never known of a vandalised sprinkler system anywhere in Staffordshire in 11 years but have attended multiple flat fire's where sprinklers would have saved the property.   if they do happen to be activated by dick heads for a laugh now and then that's ok with me.  its a small price to pay
		
Click to expand...

You misunderstand my point. I know that sprinklers work, I just know they would not be appropriate for these blocks.
 Also I accept that in your opinion false alarms are a small price to pay but in my experience installing Fire alarms and AOVs that is not a view shared by local authorities or even your colleagues in the LFB


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I responded to the deprived area statement which I don't believe this is and the flats are a mix of owned and social housing.
		
Click to expand...

Oops! Very late to check for the reply!

My point - about re-reading Hovis's post is still absolutely valid! 

As a clue...He stated 'our area' and wasn't refering to Grenfell Tower!


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 25, 2017)

I haven't followed this thread so apologies if this has been covered but on the news they are talking about the number of flats that have cladding that have failed flammability tests. Surely one of the questions here is how did these pass fire tests in the first place? Are the fire tests inept or are the mfrs not repeating their processes within spec?

Big sympathy with Camden council. They are trying to do the right thing and locals are hammering them. Are they supposed to leave people in flats that they know have failed tests? That would be criminally negligent.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2017)

It is very difficult to understand how these materials could have been possibly considered acceptable, especially in these days of Health and Safety regulation.   People really need to be taken to task over this and these people are not politicians but whoever signed off the specification.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 26, 2017)

I haven't covered a lot of this thread either , but news reports that displaced Grenfell survivors will be housed in nearby luxury apartments.

Apparently one of the residents was very outspoken saying that she thought it was unfair that she paid x to live in a very nice complex and didn't want council residents living there for free.

She has been heavily criticised in the press and labelled selfish&#128556;&#128558;


----------



## Trojan615 (Jun 26, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			One of the most sincere, honest and respected posts I have read on here for a long long time, Fragger wrote the other week about us being a " dysfunctional" family on here. I could not agree with him more. Yourself like me and others have found that writing about our " crap" days just helps a little bit. It is something that others don't understand. But Dysfunctional describes all that.
At the end of this catastrophe I hope you can find the strength and experience both good and bad to help you in future unsavoury events.
Many thanks Tashyboy
		
Click to expand...

Thanks tashy


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2017)

Sorry John McDonnell - but you really can't go accusing councillors and politicians of 'murder' over Grenfell.  That sort of language is just too emotive and divisive - and frankly, if you were really bothered, will cause your party more harm than good.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry John McDonnell - but you really can't go accusing councillors and politicians of 'murder' over Grenfell.  That sort of language is just too emotive and divisive - and frankly, if you were really bothered, will cause your party more harm than good.
		
Click to expand...

He blamed it on decades of failure, that includes his own party, don't you think profit has been put over safety in some cases for years and years and under all governments?


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry John McDonnell - but you really can't go accusing councillors and politicians of 'murder' over Grenfell.  That sort of language is just too emotive and divisive - and frankly, if you were really bothered, will cause your party more harm than good.
		
Click to expand...

Although I don't like the guy's politics at all, and I do feel he has been trying to make political mileage a little bit, he might not be wrong if he labelled it corporate manslaughter.

If a material has been used in ignorance of the building regs its not an excuse. Ignorance has never been a defence in the eyes of the law.

Emotion doesn't help but passion and energy for getting to the bottom of what's gone on should be welcomed.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 26, 2017)

I think McDonnell was inflammatory and he knew that. It was also a cheap shot. I'm sure the fire investigators will find out the full facts but if councils of all types have authorised building work that meets all fire safety tests then I am not sure what else they are supposed to do. If either the tests or mfr QA is faulty that is outside of the councils sphere of influence. That is not a money issue in terms of the councils concerned.


----------



## hovis (Jun 26, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think McDonnell was inflammatory and he knew that. It was also a cheap shot. I'm sure the fire investigators will find out the full facts but if councils of all types have authorised building work that meets all fire safety tests then I am not sure what else they are supposed to do. If either the tests or mfr QA is faulty that is outside of the councils sphere of influence. That is not a money issue in terms of the councils concerned.
		
Click to expand...

it is a monetary issue if they used the lowest bidder for the work to save money and they used sub standard materials


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 26, 2017)

Only if the materials failed to meet the spec required. Sub standard materials should not be within any building spec. If the spec is correct, passed by fire safety etc then whether the finished article is Rolls Royce, Mercedes or Ford level does not matter. As a basic, it should all be at the level required. The fact that at Grenfell and at other sites, current 100% failure rate, they are failing the spec is a worry for A/ the testing procedure to clear the products in the first place B/ the mfrs of the products that are not reproducing them to the necessary spec.

There are people who going to, hopefully, go to jail regarding this. I don't see, at this stage, that the people commissioning the work are amongst those.


----------



## sawtooth (Jun 26, 2017)

Doesn't it just make you never want to vote Labour even more?

It certainly does me.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			Doesn't it just make you never want to vote Labour even more?

It certainly does me.
		
Click to expand...

Much better staying tory and risking lives for profit.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Only if the materials failed to meet the spec required. Sub standard materials should not be within any building spec. If the spec is correct, passed by fire safety etc then whether the finished article is Rolls Royce, Mercedes or Ford level does not matter. As a basic, it should all be at the level required. The fact that at Grenfell and at other sites, current 100% failure rate, they are failing the spec is a worry for A/ the testing procedure to clear the products in the first place B/ the mfrs of the products that are not reproducing them to the necessary spec.

There are people who going to, hopefully, go to jail regarding this. I don't see, at this stage, that the people commissioning the work are amongst those.
		
Click to expand...

The change in HSE regs in April 2016 could very well see lengthy jail terms and huge fines. And it will include those that commissioned the work all the way to the Head of the Council and the company directors. There's no hiding behind someone else by saying I leave knowing the regs to subordinates. Its the responsibility of the company directors to employ the right people. Unfortunately that doesn't do the victims any good.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry John McDonnell - but you really can't go accusing councillors and politicians of 'murder' over Grenfell.  That sort of language is just too emotive and divisive - and frankly, if you were really bothered, will cause your party more harm than good.
		
Click to expand...

His exact words were:-  

"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades. "The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families. "The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."


And whilst I agree that he did not phrase it very well and probably nievely left himself open to people putting their own slant/emphasis on what he said, to me I read it as he is blaming decades of ideology, especially around the use of property as an money generating asset as opposed to somewhere for people to live. Including when Labour were in power. Not individuals who made the specific calls.  And there is a lot of that that I would agree with.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			His exact words were:-  

"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades. "The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families. "The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."


And whilst I agree that he did not phrase it very well and probably nievely left himself open to people putting their own slant/emphasis on what he said, to me I read it as he is blaming decades of ideology, especially around the use of property as an money generating asset as opposed to somewhere for people to live. Including when Labour were in power. Not individuals who made the specific calls.  And there is a lot of that that I would agree with.    




Click to expand...

Substitute the word murdered for something a bit less emotive and he's right. Using the word murdered detracts from a very honest piece. The discussion is moving away from what it should be about and becoming more about the perception of him grandstanding.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Substitute the word murdered for something a bit less emotive and he's right. Using the word murdered detracts from a very honest piece. The discussion is moving away from what it should be about and becoming more about the perception of him grandstanding.
		
Click to expand...

Well 'killed' would be somewhat less emotive; or 'their deaths were caused by...'. 

But if 'corporate manslaughter' charges are being considered, then it's the Corporate Manslaughter and Homicide Act that will be used! All they have to then do is to identify the 'culprit'! There's likely to be an enormous amount of ducking and diving of 'blame' amongst all the 'interested' parties!

Btw. I believe his words were 100% political grandstanding! I'm absolutely certain that the availability of more firefighters would have achieved absolutely nothing in this instance! And while cost (savings) MIGHT have been a consideration, I don't see how the first part of his statement actually relates to this particular incident - except that it involves working-class folk - and immigrants/refugees!


----------



## Fish (Jun 26, 2017)

I think some people are getting a bit hung up on the regs issue.  

I've been involved (supply & fit) on similar buildings, some  private, some council, and in the main their own QS will dictate the material and even the brand and spec they want fitted, in some cases they may state 'or equivalent'. 

In those cases you have to ensure the product has a 25yr BBA and you have to forward all supporting spec & data sheets to the QS for approval, these are then authorised/accepted and you crack on. 

So whether some items are cheaper or more expensive becomes immaterial, the facts are they have to be just suitable for the job in hand and someone down the chain will have signed them off. 

The only way the supplier/contractor can be liable in this situation is if he quoted for X and had those materials authorised and then fitted Y, but I don't think this is the case. 

Also, if, and it does go on, someone in the chain (QS/Council) authorised the higher quote & spec and then verbally agreed with the contractor to supply something else cheaper and then a double invoice is produced and cash changes hands.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 26, 2017)

Fish said:



			I think some people are getting a bit hung up on the regs issue.  

I've been involved (supply & fit) on similar buildings, some  private, some council, and in the main their own QS will dictate the material and even the brand and spec they want fitted, in some cases they may state 'or equivalent'. 

In those cases you have to ensure the product has a 25yr BBA and you have to forward all supporting spec & data sheets to the QS for approval, these are then authorised/accepted and you crack on. 

So whether some items are cheaper or more expensive becomes immaterial, the facts are they have to be just suitable for the job in hand and someone down the chain will have signed them off. 

The only way the supplier/contractor can be liable in this situation is if he quoted for X and had those materials authorised and then fitted Y, but I don't think this is the case. 

Also, if, and it does go on, someone in the chain (QS/Council) authorised the higher quote & spec and then verbally agreed with the contractor to supply something else cheaper and then a double invoice is produced and cash changes hands.
		
Click to expand...

Fish, how is it that at the moment all buildings are failing fire regs, were they not signed off as fire safe once the job was completed. Struggling to get me head around how they were all passed as OK in the first place but now they are not. What's gone wrong with the system that should be in place.


----------



## Fish (Jun 26, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Fish, how is it that at the moment all buildings are failing fire regs, were they not signed off as fire safe once the job was completed. Struggling to get me head around how they were all passed as OK in the first place but now they are not. What's gone wrong with the system that should be in place.
		
Click to expand...

It will depend on what the specification requirements were at the time of the tender and fitting for those specific buildings. 

It's a bit like weatherproof & waterproof, both you would think are similar but obviously only 1 would resist submersion, but it would still be subjected to caveats.  It's the same with fire retardant & resistant and a few more description of fire related materials, some will still burn, but much slower and some won't be flammable at all.  It depends on what spec was assigned at the time, maybe the spec has now been upgraded so hence why there all failing but at the time they were cladded the lower spec was deemed acceptable, I don't know?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 26, 2017)

Fish said:



			It will depend on what the specification requirements were at the time of the tender and fitting for those specific buildings. 

It's a bit like weatherproof & waterproof, both you would think are similar but obviously only 1 would resist submersion, but it would still be subjected to caveats.  It's the same with fire retardant & resistant and a few more description of fire related materials, some will still burn, but much slower and some won't be flammable at all.  It depends on what spec was assigned at the time, maybe the spec has now been upgraded so hence why there all failing but at the time they were cladded the lower spec was deemed acceptable, I don't know?
		
Click to expand...

that last bit makes sense and summat I can relate to on a massively lower scale. Just noticed the company in the USA which made the panels are now stopping supply of the panels which are being removed.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Substitute the word murdered for something a bit less emotive and he's right. Using the word murdered detracts from a very honest piece. The discussion is moving away from what it should be about and becoming more about the perception of him grandstanding.
		
Click to expand...

I agree @Hobbit.  I do wish he had not used the word as it is just too emotive language; distracts from the very important point he was making (one that I agree with) - and does the Labour Party no good whatsover given how it will be portrayed by the anti-Labour press.  Fortunately it seems like the power of the likes of the DM and the Sun is on the wane as most of the younger generation of voters don;t read newspapers (but that's another topic)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2018)

Walking down Wood Lane from Broadcasting Centre earlier this evening as I left work heading to White City Underground - I glanced across and less than half a mile away the brooding, deathly black hulk that is the horror of Grenfell Tower stood out stark amongst the lights of the adjacent tower blocks - how those who live in it's shadow cope with it I am not sure that I know.  What to do.


----------



## Fish (Jan 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Walking down Wood Lane from Broadcasting Centre earlier this evening as I left work heading to White City Underground - I glanced across and less than half a mile away the brooding, deathly black hulk that is the horror of Grenfell Tower stood out stark amongst the lights of the adjacent tower blocks - how those who live in it's shadow cope with it I am not sure that I know.  What to do.
		
Click to expand...

As soon as the investigation was complete it should have been demolished and flattened.  You canâ€™t refurb it, who would want to live there with all those horrific memories.  It should be totally rebuilt.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2018)

Fish said:



			As soon as the investigation was complete it should have been demolished and flattened.  You canâ€™t refurb it, who would want to live there with all those horrific memories.  It should be totally rebuilt.
		
Click to expand...

I agree it has to go as soon as possible - it must be horrible living in it's shadow - even looking at it from 660m gives me the creeps - but why is it still there....money and the council reconciling that with their social housing responsibilities I suspect.

Seeing it as it is today really brings back the shocking event...it is a truly awful sight.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 25, 2018)

Fish said:



			As soon as the investigation was complete it should have been demolished and flattened.  You canâ€™t refurb it, who would want to live there with all those horrific memories.  It should be totally rebuilt.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve seen or read somewhere that they canâ€™t or wonâ€™t demolish it until after the inquest etc in case other evidence or there were questions asked were they would need to revisit the scene. Totally agree it should be demolished as soon as legally possible.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2018)

Someone has serious questions to answer now that fire testing of an undamaged front door from Grenfell Tower shows that it repelled fire for 15 mins - certainly a lot less than the 30 minutes stipulated.  A manufacturing issue? A contractor cutting corners?  A council cutting corners spec'ing lower grade fire resistant doors? Complicit fire resistance compliance testing?

Serious questions to be answered here.


----------

