# Is this the end of WFH?



## Mudball (Apr 20, 2022)

So the Govt has put a dikkat that Civil Service should return to office. This will be compulsory.  I can see the logic (will give a bump to the economy), but i dont see it either.  tbh, the idea of publishing a league table of Presenteeism is such an old fashioned way of thinking.  Being in the office is perfectly valid way of working, but does it need to be a blanket approach to every department (or company).  

Back in the last century when I started working, I had to be in the office by 9 and physically sign the register.  The register would disappear at 9:15 and if you wanted to sign it, you had go and meet the officer in charge.  Is this approach valid in 2020?  Dont forget the economics of it either..  £100+ of taxed income a week on commuting, £25+ a week on lunch from Pret or Tesco, 2 hrs on a packed train etc.

original news article here >>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61145692


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2022)

My employer has sold off much of their property and converted a large proportion of the remainder to hot-desking areas. As a result, if everyone went in to work every day about a third of us would be sitting on the floor. "Blended working" seems to be our future, rotating 2 days wfh and 3 days in.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 20, 2022)

If they are paid to be in an office then they should go there. 
I never had the luxury of WFH as being a scientist I needed access to lots of very expensive instruments 😂


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



*If they are paid to be in an office then they should go there.*
I never had the luxury of WFH as being a scientist I needed access to lots of very expensive instruments 😂
		
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Theyre not though, theyre being paid to do the job/work.

Statements like these that make me glad Im my own boss.

No need to be physically in an office for most of those jobs, only issue is incompetent management (no surprise for JRMs dept lol)


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## Banchory Buddha (Apr 20, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



*If they are paid to be in an office then they should go there*.
I never had the luxury of WFH as being a scientist I needed access to lots of very expensive instruments 😂
		
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I've never had a job that was "paid to be in the office", I was always paid to do my job. Now that I've been givewn the chance, I can do my job much better from home, and save money. It's a bloody disgrace what the govt is pulling here, all because their buddies in property are seeing the value of their investments crumbling.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2022)

When covid hit I hoped (and still stand by) that we learn to have a hybrid Life style 

Some people work from home, some a few days 

Yes in my job the more people that travel the better but we run at 120% full in the peak so if we ran at 80% full we would still make enough to run (just not prop up the buses) but we wouldn't have to spent billions increasing capacity.

WFH works for a lot of people but just as many it doesn't for 

But say in the future My wife decides she wants to jack in education and go WFH when the kids are at school . It opens so many options as you could drop your kid at school and still be in the "office" at 9am.  Enabling so many more to work in fields they want rather than a field that fits their childcare 

Flexible working is great aswell I know many mums who put kids to bed then do a couple hours paper work 

We should work to live not live to work


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## hairball_89 (Apr 20, 2022)

I don't work from home... It's quite hard to work backstage in a theatre while sat on the sofa. My wife does, however. Since March 2020, when she and the rest of her colleagues one of the big insurers did a "stress test" WFH week, she's been back in the office twice.

She was based in bromley, her team based across central London, Gloucester, Peterborough and Leeds. Pretty much every meeting was on a phone, maybe once a month they would have full team meetings. Her day to day "sat at a desk, doing my job" hasn't changed one bit. The team has grown, is vastly more productive and mental health across the board is improved. Oh, and hardly anyone has the cost of commuting to deal with, wherever they were commuting to. 

*Where it works*, and it doesn't work everywhere I agree, it's brilliant.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2022)

It all depends on the job and how effective wfh is for that job. Whilst it may suit the employee it may not suit the customers or the company.

I think many companies are seeing big savings from reducing their office footprint so any change back will not be across the board.

No surprise that the govt is wanting its employees back. They are looking at the bigger picture, to jump start the subsidiary industries that feed off office workers on site.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2022)

WFH also I find depends on your home life 

If you are in a house share it's not great 

If you have a home office crack on


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## Bazzatron (Apr 20, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I've never had a job that was "paid to be in the office", I was always paid to do my job. Now that I've been givewn the chance, I can do my job much better from home, and save money. It's a bloody disgrace what the govt is pulling here, all because their buddies in property are seeing the value of their investments crumbling.
		
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We can't have their mates losing out on their overpriced office blocks sitting empty.


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## Bazzatron (Apr 20, 2022)

I can see my kids in the morning and I can pick them up if I like. I'd never go back to 5 days a week in the office. Miss out on too much. 

And it's not my job to prop up Pret and some corporate landlords pension pot.


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## Banchory Buddha (Apr 20, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are looking at the bigger picture, to jump start the subsidiary industries that feed off office workers on site.
		
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 The bigger picture would be the much improved mental health so many have experienced through working from home, mental health is a drum always being banged, especially by opposition parties in Scotland, but only when it suits it seems? Then there's the trumpeting of green initiatives, again though, not when this simple moved has been the biggest green shift ever. 

And why? No not the bigger picture, but the kickback those in #10 have had from big property who are taking a beating. It's always about the money.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			I can see my kids in the morning and I can pick them up if I like. I'd never go back to 5 days a week in the office. Miss out on too much.

And it's not my job to prop up Pret and some corporate landlords pension pot.
		
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I don't WFH, but I work shifts so I appreciate this benefit of pick up or drop off or days off in week randomly 

Life's not 9-5 anymore


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			The bigger picture would be the much improved mental health so many have experienced through working from home, mental health is a drum always being banged, especially by opposition parties in Scotland, but only when it suits it seems? Then there's the trumpeting of green initiatives, again though, not when this simple moved has been the biggest green shift ever.

And why? No not the bigger picture, but the kickback those in #10 have had from big property who are taking a beating. It's always about the money.
		
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You are quite right. I should have said a slice of the bigger picture. There are other slices to that picture, as you have pointed out.

As a balance, some much prefer going in and seeing work colleagues, having real contact with people, not just virtual contact. That is also good for mental health. The key is having the flexibility, where possible, so that all parties can choose the approach that is best for them. The problem occurs when what is best for the employer or employee does not match up what is best for the other party. Time to move jobs at that moment............


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2022)

Much depends on the job in question. My clients want face to face meetings to go through complicated plans and documents, few want to try and do that over zoom etc. Guess that is the same for civil service positions such as some benefits office jobs etc where face to face contact is needed. You also have to be careful that you do not exclude those who cannot use or afford the tech needed. if you do not have the facility to meet face to face, you exclude those who cannot use or do not have at least a semi decent phone or laptop and a reasonable internet connection (which also excludes many rural communities). With civil service positions, you also have the issue of the storage and transfer of confidential data outside of a secure office environment. 

On the mental health side, I have the opposite issue to many. Working from home is far more stressful as there is no barrier between work life and home life. I always try to work a bout half an hour away from home so a work and home are totally separate. Take that away and I feel very stressed. 

On a final point, I have not seen many reports of how companies are redressing the balance for people working from home. Costs going up, heating on all day, electricity, phone bills,  broadband etc all mounts up (our oil consumption went up massively when my wife was working at home over Winter). Has anyone been offered a reasonable annual subsidy to cover these costs. In certain professions, do companies have policies if people start turning up at your house. Someone I know works in benefits, it would not take much to find her address and for claimants to turn up to talk in person (yes they would do that). If your home life is threatend because you have to work from home and people start turning up, are companies obligated to re-house you. So many questions about the broader issue of working from home.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 20, 2022)

All office bods have been back for sometime at our place. 

At the beginning of the pandemic my missus was working from home, it transpired that that will be the case from then on so she left a job of 10 years for in office base job much to the detriment of my golf!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2022)

My companies policy was that if I did not need to be on customer site and only at customer request then I should wfh.  I could choose whether or not to go into the office but that was at my own expense.  There was actually no point in my going into the office as all of the teams I worked with worked from home or from overseas locations.  If I went into the office it was usually the case that I would only know a couple of folk - and none that I worked with.  The only time I worked in the office was when on bids…and close team working was deemed beneficial.

I might suggest why the ending of wfh for civil.servants has been announced but I will not.  But I also suggest that it won’t be seen through and many civil servants will work from home when the cost savings of them doing so are evaluated.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 20, 2022)

fundy said:



			Theyre not though, theyre being paid to do the job/work.

Statements like these that make me glad Im my own boss.

No need to be physically in an office for most of those jobs, only issue is incompetent management (no surprise for JRMs dept lol)
		
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But they are not though, look at the backlog at DVLA , where's the accountability ?


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2022)

RichA said:



			My employer has sold off much of their property and converted a large proportion of the remainder to hot-desking areas. As a result, if everyone went in to work every day about a third of us would be sitting on the floor. "Blended working" seems to be our future, rotating 2 days wfh and 3 days in.
		
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I've always worked from home so for me no change however my wife's situation is very much to yours, office is a fraction of the size so they now have 'anchor days' where teams go in on the same day (1-2 days a week) and it's usually a max of 20% of the company at any one time because otherwise you'd be sharing office furniture. 

Must admit I would prefer her to be in more as I can then go back to sneaky weekday golf instead of house tasks that I get set during my quieter periods!!


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			But they are not though, look at the backlog at DVLA , where's the accountability ?
		
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The DVLA situation is appalling however I suspect that's not down to the staff but to the management not working out how to actually get the processes done remotely. Most businesses have managed the processes well enough that you don't know whether people are WFH or in the office. The DVLA however is just a mess.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Much depends on the job in question. My clients want face to face meetings to go through complicated plans and documents, few want to try and do that over zoom etc. Guess that is the same for civil service positions such as some benefits office jobs etc where face to face contact is needed. You also have to be careful that you do not exclude those who cannot use or afford the tech needed. if you do not have the facility to meet face to face, you exclude those who cannot use or do not have at least a semi decent phone or laptop and a reasonable internet connection (which also excludes many rural communities). With civil service positions, you also have the issue of the storage and transfer of confidential data outside of a secure office environment.

On the mental health side, I have the opposite issue to many. Working from home is far more stressful as there is no barrier between work life and home life. I always try to work a bout half an hour away from home so a work and home are totally separate. Take that away and I feel very stressed.

On a final point, I have not seen many reports of how companies are redressing the balance for people working from home. Costs going up, heating on all day, electricity, phone bills,  broadband etc all mounts up (our oil consumption went up massively when my wife was working at home over Winter). Has anyone been offered a reasonable annual subsidy to cover these costs. In certain professions, do companies have policies if people start turning up at your house. Someone I know works in benefits, it would not take much to find her address and for claimants to turn up to talk in person (yes they would do that). If your home life is threatend because you have to work from home and people start turning up, are companies obligated to re-house you. So many questions about the broader issue of working from home.
		
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Whilst that cost goes up the commuting cost goes down

Someone could live in Scotland and remote work for London so cheaper cost of living 

But imagine you save £200 a month in fuel or rail costs that's a saving that balances some of the others


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst that cost goes up the commuting cost goes down

Someone could live in Scotland and remote work for London so cheaper cost of living

But imagine you save £200 a month in fuel or rail costs that's a saving that balances some of the others
		
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Works both ways in that savings on office costs should then be reflected in costs for the expense of working from home plus I suspect commuting costs would not come in to a union debate on this. Then you have health and safety at work. Who is paying for correct monitors, screen glare guards, professional office chairs and furniture, fireproof fire storage etc. If you work from home, are companies providing all of the IT equipment and a work dedicated phone or expecting people to use what they have. Also does not address the issue of people wanting to meet face to face turning up at your house, potentially at all hours. As I mentioned, a friend works in benefits and it would be easy to imaging people knocking on the door late at night with money issues. Are firms or the civil service paying for home security, numbers to call to get security out if there is an issue etc. I am not saying working from home is bad but I can also see the other side.


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## Reemul (Apr 20, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			But they are not though, look at the backlog at DVLA , where's the accountability ?
		
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Thats just poor form though, quoting 1 example for everything. Surely we as adults are past using these as examples. I mean really


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2022)

My project director says he happy for me to continue to work 2 days in office and 3 days at home. I'm delighted - never would have even considered asking for that kind of set-up before the pandemic. But I've been so much happier this way. Don't feel knackered at the end of the week, not as much time wasted travelling, more time and moments spent with my wife, including more evening activities when you can shoot straight off at 5 rather than 6:30 when you get home.

That said, I didn't enjoy it back when I was working home full time in 2020. Everything became a bit monotonous to the point you didn't know what day it was. The current balance is perfect.


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## HeftyHacker (Apr 20, 2022)

My missus works for the civil service (in an estates team coincidentally) and, although she's currently on maternity leave, she's had the diktat from her boss that she'll be expected to be in the office when she returns.

She told them where to go and said there was no benefit to her being in the office when the rest of her team was in London, Coventry, Darlington etc. Shd also brought up the fact that there had never been a requirement to be in the office before the pandemic and that one of the reasons we had moved from Manchester City Centre to our current home over an hour away was based on the assumption that that would continue.

Her boss said that was fair enough and offered to switch her designated place of work to "home" and that was that.


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## Swingalot (Apr 20, 2022)

We are starting to see the downside of Wfh in our industry from some of the public sector clients we have.

For me, hybrid working is great for an efficient and well run business, but a potential disaster for any organisation which was not well run before they switched to it.


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## Val (Apr 20, 2022)

WFH isn't for everyone, I quite enjoy it but I also have luxury again of visiting customers with a few days on the road. Equally I have colleagues that absolutely hated WFH and are filled with dread at the thought of it.


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## DaveR (Apr 20, 2022)

I've dealt with a few organisations recently and been told that they will respond to me in X* number of days/weeks. I've been waiting for the inland revenue to reissue a cheque, 11 weeks turnaround. Never used to take that long, maybe people aren't 'working' from home as much as they claim to be.



*insert large number here


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## IanM (Apr 20, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			We can't have their mates losing out on their overpriced office blocks sitting empty.
		
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Wrong.

What about the poor folk who work in the shops and bars around the empty offices losing their jobs ?

Office buildings can be turned into expensive apartments.


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I've dealt with a few organisations recently and been told that they will respond to me in X* number of days/weeks. I've been waiting for the inland revenue to reissue a cheque, 11 weeks turnaround. Never used to take that long, maybe people aren't 'working' from home as much as they claim to be.



*insert large number here
		
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Add to that phone queues. 20 minutes used to be a long wait, 45 minutes now quite normal with some advising of 2 hour waits. Sine companies have removed personal contact entirely and only accept email with 7 day turnaround.


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## CliveW (Apr 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Add to that phone queues. 20 minutes used to be a long wait, 45 minutes now quite normal with some advising of 2 hour waits. Sine companies have removed personal contact entirely and only accept email with 7 day turnaround.
		
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This is a problem I have been experiencing more and more over the past while. For example, for the last week I have been trying to contact my electricity supplier by phone, as my internet is so slow, and I have been on hold for over an hour each day waiting to get through but without success. In the meantime, Business Stream, who I have also been trying to speak to, sent me a text this morning saying they have been trying to phone me but can't get through probably because I'm hanging on to speak to my electricity supplier!

Not everyone has access to the internet, particularly rural locations, I currently have less than 1.0 download at my property and have been waiting since the 4th January for BT to supply me with a telephone line!


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## Bazzatron (Apr 21, 2022)

IanM said:



			Wrong.

What about the poor folk who work in the shops and bars around the empty offices losing their jobs ?

Office buildings can be turned into expensive apartments.
		
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Get the people in the expensive apartments using them?


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2022)

Standing on the overpacked met line this morning is making me so, so glad I don't have to do this every day.

Forgot to mention in my post above - my wife's company actually let the lease expire on their office I believe and told her she can work from home permanently, so she'll not be going back to an office any time soon. She does occasionally have to travel to a particular location for a meeting every few weeks, but that's it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Get the people in the expensive apartments using them?
		
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Love how the gov pin points this as why these buissness are struggling (which is 100% true) but tfl is struggling because of the political party in charge not to do with covid 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Tashyboy (Apr 21, 2022)

A pal of Missis Ts is a secretary, accountant, tea maker, etc for a local electrical firm.She ended up wfh. Her son is in insurance, was based in London, now Birmingham. Her husband had COVID in March 2020 and they all ended up wfh. Initially it was a nightmare. The internet was diabolical. And in some areas of the country still is. She is still working mostly from home. And she loves it. Sis in law is a tax inspector, same with her. Mostly working from home and she loves it.
I don’t think it’s one shoe fits all.


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## Fromtherough (Apr 21, 2022)

Civil Servants seem to get a bad wrap.  No one moaned during the pandemic when they were working at home, not on furlough, keeping the country going. The Department for Education has come under a lot of scrutiny. No one questioned them working from home when they were sorting out free school meals and laptops to keep children learning and fed/watered. The data reported on was taken over the first week of the Easter holidays so is skewed. Schools are off so DfE staff likely take time off too. 

Many of these government departments had working from home in place before the pandemic (perhaps 2-3 days per week), where it was possible. In addition, many of the buildings they occupy are probably not set up for 100% of people to attend at any time. Much more likely, there will 6-7 desks per 10 staff to enable meeting rooms, touch down stations and flexible/adaptable space to be included on site.


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## Bazzatron (Apr 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Standing on the overpacked met line this morning is making me so, so glad I don't have to do this every day.

Forgot to mention in my post above - my wife's company actually let the lease expire on their office I believe and told her she can work from home permanently, so she'll not be going back to an office any time soon. She does occasionally have to travel to a particular location for a meeting every few weeks, but that's it.
		
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We've done that, got one main hub office that can be used but all the others have been closed.


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## SurreyGolfer (Apr 21, 2022)

I work in management consultancy and it's very much a mix and match across our portfolio of clients (FS, Energy & Utilities, Telco, Public Sector, etc). There's a few clients doing a 4:1/5:0 office:home split, a few doing 1:4/5:0, but most are doing 2:3/3:2. A few observations:

- Our company gave us (and now every new joiner) £250 to spend on home office equipment 
- In general, more senior (read older) staff are more comfortable working from home as they have the experience needed to do the job, generally have more responsibilities to balance (kids), etc. More junior staff want to be in the office at least 3 days a week, probably due to accommodation, wanting to learn through osmosis, network/have drinks after work, etc.
- I'd say public sector getting a bit of an unfair kicking re returning to the office. If you take financial services out of the equation, they're not any further behind any other industry in terms of migrating back to the office
- It's not just office costs, a lot of companies have spent a fortune on IT to enable remote working during the pandemic to keep the business going, and won't have been set up in a particularly cost-effective or optimised manner. Bills are starting to come through for this and companies will react accordingly

Personally, 2:3/3:2 split works for me.


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## Banchory Buddha (Apr 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are quite right. I should have said a slice of the bigger picture. There are other slices to that picture, as you have pointed out.

As a balance, some much prefer going in and seeing work colleagues, having real contact with people, not just virtual contact.* That is also good for mental health.* The key is having the flexibility, where possible, so that all parties can choose the approach that is best for them. The problem occurs when what is best for the employer or employee does not match up what is best for the other party. Time to move jobs at that moment............
		
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Absolutely, and I don't disagree. However I am now playing a game of "teach HR". I've been landed (and I say that in the nicest possible way, she's a lovely lass) with an HR assistant in my office of 3, she sits opposite me as it's the back-to-the-wall seat.

She is full of "oh we should have this team building, and that team day out" etc. Also thinks it's for everyone's benefit that we are at least part-time in the office so that we have social contact. 

I am trying my hardest to get through to her that not everyone wants that, some folks hate these forced jollies, some folks would work from home 100% if allowed. As you may have guessed she is an incessant chatterbox, and does not agree with me, it's good for everyone to mix. It's not a case of "agreeing" or not, some folks do not want that, they want to come in, do their job, and go home. Or preferably, stay home and do their job. So not it's absolutely NOT good for everyone young lady, it's almost like she's never heard of introverts or social anxiety


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Absolutely, and I don't disagree. However I am now playing a game of "teach HR". I've been landed (and I say that in the nicest possible way, she's a lovely lass) with an HR assistant in my office of 3, she sits opposite me as it's the back-to-the-wall seat.

She is full of "oh we should have this team building, and that team day out" etc. Also thinks it's for everyone's benefit that we are at least part-time in the office so that we have social contact.

I am trying my hardest to get through to her that not everyone wants that, some folks hate these forced jollies, some folks would work from home 100% if allowed. As you may have guessed she is an incessant chatterbox, and does not agree with me, it's good for everyone to mix. It's not a case of "agreeing" or not, some folks do not want that, they want to come in, do their job, and go home. Or preferably, stay home and do their job. So not it's absolutely NOT good for everyone young lady, it's almost like she's never heard of introverts or social anxiety
		
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The phrase 'team building' always sends a shudder through me. It suggests getting cold and wet somewhere, somehow inspiring people to work better together. No thanks. 

Good luck in your quest


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## greenone (Apr 21, 2022)

During COVID I ended up contracting working from home which was great for me, if I wanted quiet I got it if I wanted music on I can put the music I want to listen to on. I started a new job back end of last year that is office based, god I wish they'd let me work from home ( no reason why I couldn't do the work from home). The verbal diarrhoea in the office drives me up the wall.


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## Beedee (Apr 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The phrase 'team building' always sends a shudder through me. It suggests getting cold and wet somewhere, somehow inspiring people to work better together. No thanks.

Good luck in your quest 

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Reminds me of the first job I had when I worked in London.  The team was functional but not always performing at its best.  Then a compulsory team building weekend was held to "improve" things.  After the weekend all the rosters had to be redrawn as there had been a couple of fights, and a number of other people refused to work together ever again.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 21, 2022)

Fromtherough said:



			Civil Servants seem to get a bad wrap.  *No one moaned during the pandemic when they were working at home, not on furlough, keeping the country going.* The Department for Education has come under a lot of scrutiny. No one questioned them working from home when they were sorting out free school meals and laptops to keep children learning and fed/watered. The data reported on was taken over the first week of the Easter holidays so is skewed. Schools are off so DfE staff likely take time off too.

Many of these government departments had working from home in place before the pandemic (perhaps 2-3 days per week), where it was possible. In addition, many of the buildings they occupy are probably not set up for 100% of people to attend at any time. Much more likely, there will 6-7 desks per 10 staff to enable meeting rooms, touch down stations and flexible/adaptable space to be included on site.
		
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Why would anyone have moaned that the CS weren’t put on furlough? Except maybe those in the CS that wanted to be. Seems an odd statement to make.


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## Fromtherough (Apr 21, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would anyone have moaned that the CS weren’t put on furlough? Except maybe those in the CS that wanted to be. Seems an odd statement to make.
		
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My point was that no one moaned when civil servants were instructed to work from home. Many of those will have been junior staff in customer facing or customer support roles, who in the private sector would likely to have been furloughed. However, technology (and hardware/infrastructure) was invested in to enable them to continue to deliver their roles at home, continuing the service they were offering previously. There may be evidence that suggests this may be a more productive way of working. However, to blindly instruct all to return to the office is archaic and potentially wasteful with the public purse.


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## Banchory Buddha (Apr 21, 2022)

Fromtherough said:



			My point was that no one moaned when civil servants were instructed to work from home. Many of those will have been junior staff in customer facing or customer support roles, who in the private sector would likely to have been furloughed. However, technology (and hardware/infrastructure) was invested in to enable them to continue to deliver their roles at home, continuing the service they were offering previously. There may be evidence that suggests this may be a more productive way of working.* However, to blindly instruct all to return to the office is archaic and potentially wasteful with the public purse.*

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I think basically everyone in this thread agrees with that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 21, 2022)

My wife now works from home permanently 4 days a week, with 1 day in the office. Whilst she doesn’t miss the commute, she does miss the commute that seperates work from home. She’s also finding new and younger staff in her team don’t pick up the experience knowledge older or longer serving members have that makes the job easier and quicker.

From my point of view, being one who works in peoples houses, I am fed up with everyone wanting their appointment between 11 and 12 , because they have a zoom meeting, or not answering the door again because they are on a zoom meeting or the like.
I suppose the overbearing feeling is that their job is more important than mine, but they still want to wash their laundry, or dishes, or cook their food or keep it cold.
I have also found the “rush hour” has mooched into a “parents taking the kids out 3hrs rush”
Theres good and bad for both sides, let’s not forget that.


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## Newtonuti (Apr 21, 2022)

What I'd do to be able to work from home! Manufacturing is the pits. Although I do believe that a hybrid working situation is probably best. You can't just have people purely working from home, as it almost creates a disjointed team.


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## Wilson (Apr 21, 2022)

I read an article yesterday from a Civil Servant, who said their office had been reduced to 3 desks for every 10 heads, so they can’t all go back to the office like JRM wants.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2022)

Wilson said:



			I read an article yesterday from a Civil Servant, who said their office had been reduced to 3 desks for every 10 heads, so they can’t all go back to the office like JRM wants.
		
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JRM in hasn't got a clue shocker


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## IanM (Apr 21, 2022)

Some organisations will never go back to pre covid practices.
Some will try.
Others will wobble between the two.

I reckon sufficient organisations will mess it up and it'll mean me coming out of retirement over the winter!


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## Britishshooting (Apr 21, 2022)

Ultimately some people can’t be trusted to work from home. Gave all of my team the opportunity a good majority were more efficient saving on commute time etc.

Others absolutely taking the mick, productivity down, not responding to Client E-Mails/Calls in an efficient manor and workflow down in a major way with work quality terrible as it being rushed/last minute.

It made it somewhat difficult however now we have a split, those that are trusted to work from home typically work from home 2-3 days a week, others now work from the office 5 days a week. Also have to ensure younger workers are learning from experienced colleagues so co-ordinate their days in the office and they shadow on site. Teams meetings help fill in the gaps.

We are very flexible too which has been very positive. Some guys are early risers like me and depending on meetings etc if you start your day at 4am and your finished for dinner to spend more time with your family that’s fine. Alternatively some of the younger lads prefer to start their day mid-late morning and work a bit later into the evening also fine as long as projects stay on track.

Doesn’t always work depending on meetings, calls E-Mails but we trust those that work from home to manage their day to suit them and their commitments and they do. They are much happier and have a happier work/life balance as a result.

This is under review and changing with more transitioning to work from home. Those who abused the system have been given another chance some now trusted to do so and others have to have their hand held in the office which is a shame.

I deal with a wide range of sectors from different local authorities mainly planning however also Transport, Economy, Bio-Diversity departments and making contact can only be described as frustrating. It’s certainly worse than pre- covid. Fortunately due to our Clients and the financial impact they bring to the local economy we have clout to beat these departments with but it’s still painful and you forever seem to be getting through to voicemail or directed to another contact number which goes unanswered. What I do now which is unfortunate but effective is use the Economic department of the local authority to drive the other departments. Ultimately if applications get significantly delayed the Client may take their shiny new building and employment opportunity elsewhere.

It does feel there is also a lack of resource currently. We are struggling to recruit and I know a lot of others are also. It’s almost like everyone is busier than usual.

Turn arounds on applications have been woeful, including decision dates and communication is next to non existent throughout the process.


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## IanM (Apr 21, 2022)

Yep.  Sorting out skivers is easier when they are sat in front of you, but doing it remotely isn't impossible either. 

Even before covid,  look around the office after 6pm, and the proportion of contractors to permies was significant!  Mind you, were they being productive, or just present?


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## Britishshooting (Apr 21, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep.  Sorting out skivers is easier when they are sat in front of you, but doing it remotely isn't impossible either.

Even before covid,  look around the office after 6pm, and the proportion of contractors to permies was significant!  Mind you, were they being productive, or just present?

Click to expand...

Gave them the chance, still blew it. With skivers we would have morning teams calls to ensure they’re up and working. End the teams call and if you called them via teams within 5-10mins it would go unanswered then some generic excuse. To make them efficient I would become inefficient managing them remotely.

Problem was for me it was almost micro-managing their day, their workload and what they had done. Too much of a time soak, back in the office at least their present rather than in their bed at home. For whatever reason they get stuff done in the office just can’t motivate at home and distracted.

That’s fine they don’t have to work from home and they won’t unless they can work efficiently.


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## IanM (Apr 21, 2022)

Environment is massive. 

I have a proper office room at home.  One of my old team lives in a flat and has 2 pre school age children.    He couldn't get back to the office quick enough!!


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## IanM (Apr 22, 2022)

Spookily just had a call from a recruitment agent.  Decent role, but insisting one day a week in London.  I may work again in the winter or if I get an offer I can't refuse, but for humour sake, I said that I wouldn't be able to commit to a day in London every week.  Apparently several of the folk contacted said the same.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2022)

My Mrs has always worked in a team environment in the NHS and joined a charity Help Desk team 2-3 days a week when she retired from the NHS after near 40yts.  Started with the charity Nov 2019 and was very happy with the new team and heading up to their office near Tower Bridge. 

Then pandemic and after a short transition they got her WFH.  She’s now working from our garden studio (which feels as if away from home) and chose the WFH option when offered a few months ago.  She misses the close contact with the team but they have a short video muster every morning before the help desk line opens and that has helped her change to her new way of working, going in maybe an occasional day every other month for training or briefings and get-togethers.  Her work is very process driven, either taking telephone calls  - when her availability or not is visible to all of the team and the manager - or working through responses to on-line queries.

WFH works well for her and the charity and we save £35/day travelling expenses.👍


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## Cherry13 (Apr 22, 2022)

Wilson said:



			I read an article yesterday from a Civil Servant, who said their office had been reduced to 3 desks for every 10 heads, so they can’t all go back to the office like JRM wants.
		
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The ALB I work for has reduced capacity in our offices to 40%.  We wont be upping that, and have ended a lot of the leases we have.  I think JRMs policy is going to be very london-centric and probably more aimed at whitehall types.  

We are being strongly encouraged to use it as a recruitment tactic moving forward.


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## Bazzatron (Apr 22, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep.  Sorting out skivers is easier when they are sat in front of you, but doing it remotely isn't impossible either.

Even before covid,  look around the office after 6pm, and the proportion of *contractors to permies *was significant!  Mind you, were they being productive, or just present?

Click to expand...

Which way around? I'm a Business Analyst and work with a few contract PMs and BAs. Wouldn't know what time they leave...


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## IanM (Apr 22, 2022)

Let's just say the folk leaving en masse as the security guard locked up were all staying in the hotel opposite


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## Bazzatron (Apr 22, 2022)

IanM said:



			Let's just say the folk leaving en masse as the security guard locked up were all staying in the hotel opposite 

Click to expand...

So they should be on those day rates 😆


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## IanM (Apr 22, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			So they should be on those day rates 😆
		
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If it is that easy, more people should do it!😁


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## Mudball (Apr 23, 2022)

Looks like JRM is serious about return to office.. he seems to leaving this note for civil servants who aren’t at their desks… (though if CS are hot desking, then I don’t know who gets it)





But looks like not every arm of the govt is convinced


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## pauljames87 (Apr 23, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Looks like JRM is serious about return to office.. he seems to leaving this note for civil servants who aren’t at their desks… (though if CS are hot desking, then I don’t know who gets it)

View attachment 42366



But looks like not every arm of the govt is convinced

View attachment 42367

Click to expand...

Minister for government efficiency.. how much did these notes cost to print and is it a good use of time going around handing them out?


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## Imurg (Apr 23, 2022)

Not that I or the Mrs can work from home but , to a large extent, I hope it stays.
Our Driving Test Centre is on one corner of a block about the size of a football field.
Before Covid the car park was rammed and with people's dodgy parking it was very tight for the kids getting in and out. 
Since Covid there's about 3 cars in the car park and they belong to the Examiners....brilliant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Minister for government efficiency.. how much did these notes cost to print and is it a good use of time going around handing them out?
		
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Whether realised or not this sort of thing is a form of passive-aggressive bullying.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 24, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Looks like JRM is serious about return to office.. he seems to leaving this note for civil servants who aren’t at their desks… (though if CS are hot desking, then I don’t know
		
Click to expand...

"Dear JRM,

Sorry I was out doing my job when you called. If you'd told me of your intention, i could have saved you from wasting government time..
Yours sincerely

Unimpressed Minion."


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## IanM (Apr 24, 2022)

If you want to laugh at this subject,  head over to LinkedIn.   Some right old baloney. 

Everyone has different requirements, circumstances and issues,  so no one size fits all


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## Mudball (Apr 24, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether realised or not this sort of thing *is a form of passive-aggressive bullying*.
		
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tbh, I had not thought of it in those terms. But then it would not be the first case of ministerial bullying. 

Equally people might call you a snowflake if you think this is bullying..  funny how lazy labelling  work in this world


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## Mudball (Apr 28, 2022)

Well JRM is warning civil servants he will sell their offices if they don't stop working from home.  Looks like Govt taking a leaf from the private sector book. Though I doubt they will sell any part of Whitehall and surroundings. 

https://apple.news/A-t7Sx0zZTceY-2wu7rsd3Q


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Well JRM is warning civil servants he will sell their offices if they don't stop working from home.  Looks like Govt taking a leaf from the private sector book. Though I doubt they will sell any part of Whitehall and surroundings. 

https://apple.news/A-t7Sx0zZTceY-2wu7rsd3Q

Click to expand...

Sell them then they have to work from home surely?


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## IanM (Apr 29, 2022)

Well ahead of the pandemic,  there was a programme of not renewing leases on government buildings where appropriate to save money.  Folk were being encouraged to work at hubs, and from home.   There is a cross government wifi network to enable flexibility on locations.

The drivers behind this are the Civil Service,  not the Ministers.  It also predates Cameron getting the Tories back in.  We had a whole floor of the building in Southampton occupied by another Agency for years.

My old role has a CEO who wants folk back in, unless they are a contactor who lives miles away.  The Minister made it clear it was up to operational requirements of the Agency.   I can't speak for JRMs folk, but I suspect its more about him, than the process. 

I only spent 6 years of my working life in the Public Sector.  Some of it is a bit "Yes Minister," and some is excellent.   But most of what you read about it is nonsense.


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2022)

IanM said:



			Well ahead of the pandemic,  there was a programme of not renewing leases on government buildings where appropriate to save money.  Folk were being encouraged to work at hubs, and from home.   There is a cross government wifi network to enable flexibility on locations.

The drivers behind this are the Civil Service,  not the Ministers.  It also predates Cameron getting the Tories back in.  We had a whole floor of the building in Southampton occupied by another Agency for years.

My old role has a CEO who wants folk back in, unless they are a contactor who lives miles away.  The Minister made it clear it was up to operational requirements of the Agency.   I can't speak for JRMs folk, but I suspect its more about him, than the process.

I only spent 6 years of my working life in the Public Sector.  Some of it is a bit "Yes Minister," and some is excellent.   But most of what you read about it is nonsense. 

Click to expand...

I used to contract with some Dept many years ago and agree with your view. As Sir Humphrey would say, the country runs despite the politicians rather than due to them. 

Don’t be too critical of politicians else JRM May ask his Nanny to have a word with you.


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## Marshy77 (Apr 29, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep.  Sorting out skivers is easier when they are sat in front of you, but doing it remotely isn't impossible either.

Even before covid,  look around the office after 6pm, and the proportion of contractors to permies was significant!  Mind you, were they being productive, or just present?

Click to expand...

I actually think this is easier as it's more noticeable now when WFH or supposedly WFH. Productivity has definitely increased at our place as you don't have the distractions you had whilst in the office. This was noticeable when I went in the office earlier this week. Half the day was a quick chat here, catch up here, could we have 5 minutes to discuss this etc. 

Skivers will definitely be identified, I know in our team they have.


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			I actually think this is easier as it's more noticeable now when WFH or supposedly WFH. Productivity has definitely increased at our place as you don't have the distractions you had whilst in the office. This was noticeable when I went in the office earlier this week. Half the day was a quick chat here, catch up here, could we have 5 minutes to discuss this etc.

Skivers will definitely be identified, I know in our team they have.
		
Click to expand...

Next 3 days I am going to go into the office. I have my Out of Office switched on saying that my email responses will be delayed as I will be spending time talking to people, coffee catch ups, quick connects etc. no chance of any work getting done


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2022)

I couldn't work in an office. I go in once a month at the very most and I try to avoid that!!! I worked from home way before the pandemic though and have a dedicated office at home (OK, its more like a gym these days with a small desk, but its dedicated space!)

I have mates who were full-time London commuters, many going back a bit but not full 5 days. Many are now going Tue, Wed and Thu and working from home Mon and Fri. They are called TWATS. Tues, Weds And Thurs'S.


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## Bazzatron (Apr 30, 2022)

First meeting back in the office on Thursday, project manager said she'll be going for the 1.5hour meeting and then shooting off around lunchtime. 
Doing the 20mile commute will be much more pleasant at 12pm than 5pm for me. Hope it continues like this.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 30, 2022)

We have started a bit of a hybrid system and whilst it makes life cushy. It's so easy to see the difference on productivity for the people at home. 

The fact so many chose Mon and Friday as their WFH days shows they just see it as easy Street and extend their weekends.


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## IanM (Apr 30, 2022)

Slackers will slack, at home or in an office.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2022)

Papas1982 said:



			We have started a bit of a hybrid system and whilst it makes life cushy. It's so easy to see the difference on productivity for the people at home.

The fact so many chose Mon and Friday as their WFH days shows they just see it as easy Street and extend their weekends.
		
Click to expand...

Or Friday can start early finish early or on time no commute so can start weekend and no commute Monday so enjoy a better work life balance

How very dare they


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I'm with Paul James on this one.

Every study so far seems to suggest that wfh is a positive for both productivity and mental health, the outlier here seems to be you, who appears to have an inbuilt negative attitude on the work ethics of your staff. Ever considered the problem may be your lack of trust, and problems kick on from there?
		
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Always easy to label the 18-25 as lazy


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## DaveR (Apr 30, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I'm with Paul James on this one.

Every study so far seems to suggest that wfh is a positive for both productivity and mental health, the outlier here seems to be you, who appears to have an inbuilt negative attitude on the work ethics of your staff. Ever considered the problem may be your lack of trust, and problems kick on from there?
		
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Every instance I've experienced of WFH is poor. Every organisation now blames Covid for long response times etc because people are no longer in the office. Recent insurance claim.....5 weeks to resolve. Previous claim with same company......6 days. Go figure........


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## Papas1982 (Apr 30, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I'm with Paul James on this one. 

Every study so far seems to suggest that wfh is a positive for both productivity and mental health, the outlier here seems to be you, who appears to have an inbuilt negative attitude on the work ethics of your staff. Ever considered the problem may be your lack of trust, and problems kick on from there?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't said that WFH is negative for everyone. But as I can see productivity in and out of the office.
I'm not sure how them in theory being away form the horrible boss I'm perceived to be would translate into that as surely being away form me would cheer them somewhat and have them work harder....


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## DCB (Apr 30, 2022)

Enough of the bickering, personal insults and bad language please.  

General warning, please heed it.


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## Banchory Buddha (May 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Every instance I've experienced of WFH is poor. Every *organisation* now blames Covid for long response times etc because people are no longer in the office. Recent insurance claim.....5 weeks to resolve. Previous claim with same company......6 days. Go figure........
		
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I've highlighted the problem, it's not the staff


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## Banchory Buddha (May 1, 2022)

DCB said:



			Enough of the bickering, personal insults and bad language please. 

General warning, please heed it.
		
Click to expand...

I beg your pardon?


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## DaveR (May 1, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I've highlighted the problem, it's not the staff
		
Click to expand...

I thought the staff did the work?


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## Ethan (May 1, 2022)

WFH is working out quite nicely in several different contracts I am doing. I have been doing work for 3 different clients for over a year, and have never met any of them face to face or been in any offices. These are international jobs, with people around the UK, Europe and US, and with WFH nobody has to waste time on planes, waiting at airports, or miss nights staying away. WFH does work a bit differently, though. You need to have more focus and tangible outcomes from meetings because the bumping into people in the corridor where issues are resolved doesn't happen. I use Microsoft Teams, Zoom and Google Meet, depending on the client. We also collaborate on document wiring and review using various document management systems. There is the occasional glitch but no worse than someone being late due to traffic.


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## Banchory Buddha (May 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I thought the staff did the work?
		
Click to expand...

They're not the "organisation" are they? Just because companies are hiding behind covid to excuse their poor customer service, doesn't mean it's the staff's fault, or indeed that the excuse holds any water. 

I lose at least an hour of my day due to idle chit chat in the office that I could totally do without, and which wont happen at home. WFH is far more productive, my work however wants me in week about, that's down to them that I do less than when I am WFH


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## BiMGuy (May 1, 2022)

We’ve just been told that we need to do 3 days in the office. For no other reason than being ‘visible’ is more important than what people are actually doing 🤷🏼‍♂️

It appears that some management can’t actually manage their teams unless they are watching over them and micro managing. So everyone now has to be treated like children.


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## Ethan (May 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			We’ve just been told that we need to do 3 days in the office. For no other reason than being ‘visible’ is more important than what people are actually doing 🤷🏼‍♂️

It appears that some management can’t actually manage their teams unless they are watching over them and micro managing. So everyone now has to be treated like children.
		
Click to expand...

You have bad management. Presenteeism is a curse of poor quality middle managers who lack the leadership skills to properly manage their teams.


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## DaveR (May 1, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			They're not the "organisation" are they? Just because companies are hiding behind covid to excuse their poor customer service, doesn't mean it's the staff's fault, or indeed that the excuse holds any water.

I lose at least an hour of my day due to idle chit chat in the office that I could totally do without, and which wont happen at home. WFH is far more productive, my work however wants me in week about, that's down to them that I do less than when I am WFH
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. My last job was for an insurance company and the office was mainly call centres dealing with claims for motor, travel, household etc. A very large percentage of employees are young kids. It's low paid with very little incentive to work hard as there isn't much in the way of career progression. They would often hang around the coffee machines and breakout areas chatting. If they are like that in the office then working from home is a free pass to them to do as little as they can get away with.


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## Banchory Buddha (May 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I disagree. My last job was for an insurance company and the office was mainly call centres dealing with claims for motor, travel, household etc. A very large percentage of employees are young kids. It's low paid with very little incentive to work hard as there isn't much in the way of career progression. They would often hang around the coffee machines and breakout areas chatting. If they are like that in the office then working from home is a free pass to them to do as little as they can get away with.
		
Click to expand...

That's a totally different, and very specific scenario. 

We're talking about general office work, not call centres


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## DaveR (May 1, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That's a totally different, and very specific scenario.

We're talking about general office work, not call centres
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, working in a call centre is still office work. I agree many (most?) people are motivated and mature enough to manage their own time and workload but many aren't and they need to be micro managed in an office environment. 
As stated in an earlier post, I'm waiting for companies to respond to me and they are taking unacceptable amounts of time to do so but there wasn't a problem pre covid.


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## Fromtherough (May 1, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You have bad management. Presenteeism is a curse of poor quality middle managers who lack the leadership skills to properly manage their teams.
		
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Agree. Presenteeism is the crux of what JRM is trying to impose on the civil service.


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## Marshy77 (May 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I disagree. My last job was for an insurance company and the office was mainly call centres dealing with claims for motor, travel, household etc. A very large percentage of employees are young kids. It's low paid with very little incentive to work hard as there isn't much in the way of career progression. They would often hang around the coffee machines and breakout areas chatting. If they are like that in the office then working from home is a free pass to them to do as little as they can get away with.
		
Click to expand...

Think you've highlighted the problem with low pay, no incentive and no progression. 

Don't think the issue in a lot of cases in the thread is WFH it's staff management. If you let staff take the p then they'll take the p, WFH or in the office. WFH has probably highlighted issues with poor management more than anything.


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## IanM (May 1, 2022)

Fromtherough said:



			Agree. Presenteeism is the crux of what JRM is trying to impose on the civil service.
		
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Only on the little bit he's responsible for!

Some processes are best done on-site, many it doesn't matter a jott! But, poor leadership can operate in any environment.


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2022)

I’ve been working from home two days a week for the last 10 years or so, and permanently since Covid. My office was an hour and forty minutes each way, and I work 7:00 -15:30 to skip traffic. Now it’s 30 seconds and I don’t have that daily challenge at all, I’m more refreshed, sleep better, and longer, and am way more productive. No problem staying online an extra hour if needed, still finish before I would have gotten home, and saving a shed load on diesel cost, not to mention reducing my Carbon emissions. What’s not to like…

The company has changed my contract to once a week in the office, but currently don’t plan to return other than the odd meeting. We have also introduced flexible Fridays, make up two or three hours in the week and take Friday pm off. I can also get golf in on Tuesday evenings and Friday afternoons, which I couldn’t do previously. It’s all been working very nicely thus far.


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## DaveR (May 1, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			I’ve been working from home two days a week for the last 10 years or so, and permanently since Covid. My office was an hour and forty minutes each way, and I work 7:00 -15:30 to skip traffic. Now it’s 30 seconds and I don’t have that daily challenge at all, I’m more refreshed, sleep better, and longer, and am way more productive. No problem staying online an extra hour if needed, still finish before I would have gotten home, and saving a shed load on diesel cost, not to mention reducing my Carbon emissions. What’s not to like…

The company has changed my contract to once a week in the office, but currently don’t plan to return other than the odd meeting. We have also introduced flexible Fridays, make up two or three hours in the week and take Friday pm off. I can also get golf in on Tuesday evenings and Friday afternoons, which I couldn’t do previously. It’s all been working very nicely thus far.
		
Click to expand...

Similar to my experience. Pre covid I worked from home every Wednesday, I was on the tee by 4.15 every week in the summer. Fulltime from home when the pandemic kicked in, also a 1hr30 commute each way so gained 3 hours a day. As you say, what's not to like 

Problem still remains with companies being less productive though and blaming everything on the pandemic.


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## need_my_wedge (May 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Similar to my experience. Pre covid I worked from home every Wednesday, I was on the tee by 4.15 every week in the summer. Fulltime from home when the pandemic kicked in, also a 1hr30 commute each way so gained 3 hours a day. As you say, what's not to like 

Problem still remains with companies being less productive though and blaming everything on the pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

I work 3rd line support, I don’t deal with customers and have no need to be in an office to resolve problems, all my systems are available via internet, I have 500mb fibre to property. I’m a team oc one and use Teams to deal with anyone I need to speak to, it works well for me, if anything, I’ve gained productivity.


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## Mudball (May 2, 2022)

Well.. another angle. You can now WFH got 20% less 

Law firm says staff can work from home - for 20% less pay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61298394


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## Lord Tyrion (May 2, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Well.. another angle. You can now WFH got 20% less

Law firm says staff can work from home - for 20% less pay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61298394

Click to expand...

Is that not about a London weighting though? After all, if you no longer need to be in London as you are working from home then why pay those staff the weighting? It's a fair point isn't it? (If I have misread the article then I take this all back 😄)


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that not about a London weighting though? After all, if you no longer need to be in London as you are working from home then why pay those staff the weighting? It's a fair point isn't it? (If I have misread the article then I take this all back 😄)
		
Click to expand...

20% wage cut is a lot but if it's on the figures quoted of 90k starting wage and 20% cut to 72k that isn't as bad because the take home from that 20% is nearer 12%


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

I will add on the last post if they are offering a 20% cut should expenses be offered in their place? Heating and electric the company is no longer paying for

Good proper home office equipment (one of expense maybe but get people with the correct DSE etc)


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## Mudball (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			20% wage cut is a lot but if it's on the figures quoted of 90k starting wage and 20% cut to 72k that isn't as bad because the take home from that 20% is nearer 12%
		
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While i understand that... i think disagree..   the 90k figure is an optical red herring. If a job is worth 90k, then it is worth 90k.  a 20% haircut is further aggravated by the 5% inflation, so you are net 25% worse off. So your take home and net purchasing power is down greater than 12% (or rather 17% since inflation is post-tax impact).  There is a bit of offset on the expenses which is a good thing.  

I would love to see the lawyers relook at their own contracts.


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## IanM (May 2, 2022)

Interesting on two fronts..

1. If you are not travelling to London, don't expect the London allowance!

2. WFH is priceless!   No sitting in traffic,  travel, lunches and (in my case) accommodation costs.      I was about £800 a month better off from not travelling.  I'd negotiate on my day rate if necessary if it meant fewer nights away!  

I might do some work in the winter,  I'm getting calls now from some old clients about formalising wfh changes...


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Interesting on two fronts..

1. If you are not travelling to London, don't expect the London allowance!

2. WFH is priceless!   No sitting in traffic,  travel, lunches and (in my case) accommodation costs.      I was about £800 a month better off from not travelling.  I'd negotiate on my day rate if necessary if it meant fewer nights away! 

I might do some work in the winter,  I'm getting calls now from some old clients about formalising wfh changes...
		
Click to expand...

It is ironic that JRM wants to end it when they could recruit for example from Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester all to the same position 

When the gov have a minister of leveling up.. maybe gove need a word.. because this would level up employment no end.


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## IanM (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It is ironic that JRM wants to end it when they could recruit for example from Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester all to the same position

When the gov have a minister of leveling up.. maybe gove need a word.. because this would level up employment no end.
		
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Forget JRM, his coverage is unrepresentative...    Its been like this for some time, and is largely unchanged.    My last gig in Southampton we had folk who lived in Wales,  Cornwall,  Scotland, Brum,  Newcastle... we only travelled to hq when needed.

Although I spent 5 days in the office for my first few months to understand the business and for folk to get used to me!  Now they're more used to MS Teams, on-boarding remotely is much easier. But, we had to get the oldies comfortable with video calls.

Although I am sure its different in some government agencies, the ones I worked with we're similarly flexible.    Covid made sure the stragglers caught up.

Major rule of Change Management.   There has to be a burning platform,  or why bother?


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Forget JRM, his coverage is unrepresentative...    Its been like this for some time, and is largely unchanged.    My last gig in Southampton we had folk who lived in Wales,  Cornwall,  Scotland, Brum,  Newcastle... we only travelled to hq when needed.

Although I spent 5 days in the office for my first few months to understand the business and for folk to get used to me!  Now they're more used to MS Teams, on-boarding remotely is much easier. But, we had to get the oldies comfortable with video calls
		
Click to expand...

Once obstacles are overcome I really believe a hybrid way of working should be the norm 

I mean those who want to go in shouldn't be stopped but equally if people want to work from home why the heck not? Well because we buiit and micro economy on them eating and drinking out


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## IanM (May 2, 2022)

Sorry, I edited while you were typing.

Hybrid working is here.  Its going nowhere. Recruiters are telling me  businesses resisting it are struggling to recruit top candidates. (Of course some activities are better served on site) The ancillary businesses will adapt or close.


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Sorry, I edited while you were typing.

Hybrid working is here.  Its going nowhere. Recruiters are telling me  businesses resisting it are struggling to recruit top candidates. (Of course some activities are better served on site) The ancillary businesses will adapt or close.
		
Click to expand...

I wish it was the norm

When covid hit I said that London should do hybrid. 2-3 days in rest at home.. rotation of the work force 

We wouldn't need to do upgrade of capacity work on the tube .. we run at 110% full (pre covid peak) imagine if it was 70% full peak? Might be comfortable!


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## Bazzatron (May 2, 2022)

Every recruiter I've had approach me for new roles usually mentions how many days I'd be expected to be in within the first minute of the call. I can look at roles 200 miles away now and be picky with my next career move, it's great. Hope it continues.


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## BiMGuy (May 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Sorry, I edited while you were typing.

Hybrid working is here.  Its going nowhere. Recruiters are telling me  businesses resisting it are struggling to recruit top candidates. (Of course some activities are better served on site) The ancillary businesses will adapt or close.
		
Click to expand...

This is happening to us. During one of the lockdowns we couldn’t recruit a critical member of staff in one office due to the local management insisting on people being present in the office. A decision that has probably cost us over a million pounds, and a few other people their job.

We employed people at other locations on the basis they could work remotely. Now those people are being told they must be in an office part of the week. I know we are going to get at least three resignations in the coming weeks. Those people will be almost impossible to replace on the terms the company wants to offer.

Good candidates are expecting a degree of flexibility. And good companies will offer it.


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## Bazzatron (May 2, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			This is happening to us. During one of the lockdowns we couldn’t recruit a critical member of staff in one office due to the local management insisting on people being present in the office. A decision that has probably cost us over a million pounds, and a few other people their job.

We employed people at other locations on the basis they could work remotely. Now those people are being told they must be in an office part of the week. I know we are going to get at least three resignations in the coming weeks. Those people will be almost impossible to replace on the terms the company wants to offer.

Good candidates are expecting a degree of flexibility. And good companies will offer it.
		
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Plenty of roles are 100% remote, good staff can pick and choose and companies prioritising presentism will suffer.


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## Mudball (May 6, 2022)

Lord Sugar is not very impressed either >> 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522279099280113668


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## Orikoru (May 6, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Lord Sugar is not very impressed either >>


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522279099280113668

Click to expand...

What a dinosaur.


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## GreiginFife (May 6, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Lord Sugar is not very impressed either >>


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522279099280113668

Click to expand...





Not sure I would be listening to a man with a face like a scrotum that's been in the cold too long...


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## Lord Tyrion (May 6, 2022)

I wouldn't be taking too much notice of a man who keeps investing in businesses selling cup cakes and bags of sweets . He is a caricature from the 80's / 90's who hasn't moved on.


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## need_my_wedge (May 6, 2022)

Just received an email today stating that our office is finally re-opening this month. Return to the office is not mandatory. As before, I've already negotiated a contract to mostly stay at home, but given the current increase in Diesel prices, I plan to stay home permanently.


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## HeftyHacker (May 9, 2022)

Well I got a text off my boss whilst I've been off to tell me that the Company has instructed everyone to get in the office 3 days a week.

Obviously the majority will choose to be in Tuesday to Thursday (we get half day Fridays so seems pointless travelling in for 3 or 4 hours work) but the big wigs seem to have forgotten that they reduced office space by 40% during the pandemic so I dont know where they think everyone is going to sit. Also the IT in the office is awful since they allowed everyone to take their preferred IT home with them during the pandemic. The result is that all you have on your desk is a tiny 4:3 screen that may or may not have a vga or dvi cable with it. 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2022)

…and with everyone in a few days a week all meeting rooms will become fully booked and folks will find themselves sitting at their desks on MS Teams video conference calls with folks who are all in the office 🙄🙄

My ex-company years ago moved to remote working for all unless the customer required your on-site presence or such as during critical phases of bid prep which benefitted from closest team collaboration with 100% always present together.

I WFH maybe 95% of time during my last 5yrs+ of employment and rarely met any of the teams I worked with. Never really was an issue for me as by my inherently solitary nature I’m pretty comfortable with my own company,

Though it was a bit weird mostly not knowing faces to put to voices as we didn’t use video aspect of conferencing I think our personal experiences of video Zoom chats through the pandemic may well have, for many, broken through that barrier of reticence.  And that will be a good thing and go a good way to engendering and fostering the team ethic and personal interactions that WFH has suffered from in the past.


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## BiMGuy (May 9, 2022)

So the fun and games are starting.

Emails from admin asking for people to confirm whereabouts and daily diaries being required with an hourly breakdown.

Shorty followed by on of our contact guys handing in their notice and one of my team telling me they will be looking for another job. 

Great first hour of the week 🙈


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## road2ruin (May 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Emails from admin asking for people to confirm whereabouts and daily diaries being required with an hourly breakdown.
		
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Such a ridiculous attitude to have. Either trust your staff and have them working from home or don't and have them all come into the office. It's easy enough to see who isn't pulling their weight WFH without asking everyone to fill in time sheets etc. You're just going to alienate those who probably are working just as hard and now having their attitude queried.


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## BiMGuy (May 9, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Such a ridiculous attitude to have. Either trust your staff and have them working from home or do and have them all come into the office. It's easy enough to see who isn't pulling their weight WFH without asking everyone to fill in time sheets etc. *You're just going to alienate those who probably are working just as hard and now having their attitude queried.*

Click to expand...

And this is exactly the response we are getting.


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## Beezerk (May 9, 2022)

Re the mention about council workers a few pages back.
I wonder if their sickness rates have been reduced drastically throughout the WFH times or if it has stayed woefully high 🤔


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## Mudball (May 9, 2022)

We have a compulsory office based training day on the first friday of the month.  it is the only way we see each other nowadays.

This Friday, i went into office and spent 5 hours on Team calls with various clients and external people.  Glad that lunch was provided though i spent about 15 quid worth of Diesel to get it..


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## IanM (May 9, 2022)

Poor leaders continually find new ways to be rubbish!


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## Springveldt (May 10, 2022)

I'm still WFH with no intentions of going back to the office. Like a lot of others my company only took out 70% of the floor space when the lease expired and now we have hybrid working and can go in whenever we want.

Since I'm a software engineer I don't really have a need to go into the office. There is only 1 other guy on my current team there the rest are in London, Amsterdam and Hamburg.

There are still other software engineers in the office (who also all WFH) but the teams got shuffled during covid. We did talk about going back in one Friday every month just to meet up and have our old pub lunches again. Even then, I still speak to the same guys I always did in the office but just over Google Meet almost daily and still play golf with my direct manager twice a week.


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## Mudball (May 10, 2022)

The downside of WFH...
.. I have a big Sales meet coming up in the US.  Under normal circumstances, we would have flown down.  Met the client, presented, get p*ssed, stay the weekend and sneaky round of golf, collected airline miles, some duty free shopping. 

now all of that will be rolled into a Zoom call in my PJ and a Jacket.   What is there to like about WFH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So the fun and games are starting.

Emails from admin asking for people to confirm whereabouts and daily diaries being required with an hourly breakdown.

Shorty followed by on of our contact guys handing in their notice and one of my team telling me they will be looking for another job.

Great first hour of the week 🙈
		
Click to expand...

German workers councils wouldn’t entertain a bosses idea of close, almost minute-by-minute, monitoring of whereabouts of staff - may still be the case that presence/status traffic lighting that such as MS Teams and Skype provides are a non-starter. Certainly used to be the case when some years ago I worked with some of our German teams.  Now if only the UK had an effective equivalent…🙄


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## IanM (May 11, 2022)

Not strictly true.  We had this on our version of Lync at Airbus EADS as far back as 2011.  It was approved by the workers councils in France and Germany without issue, once it was proved that they couldn't record time on pc data.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2022)

IanM said:



			Not strictly true.  We had this on our version of Lync at Airbus EADS as far back as 2011.  It was approved by the workers councils in France and Germany without issue, once it was proved that they couldn't record time on pc data.



Click to expand...

Ah right.  Maybe it was just my companies German workers councils.  But the basic concern such workers councils have seems then to be in respect of recording and hence monitoring and tracking an employees time active on a PC - which for many workers will be deemed to be indicative of their ‘active’ working time.

I certainly knew how to set my status appropriate to what I wanted to be doing when WFH.  But bottom line was that my bosses trusted me to do what I had to do.  I was never once asked why I was showing as Off-line; Away; or Do Not Disturb.


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## Wilson (May 11, 2022)

I was in our London office yesterday, trains and tube much busier than when I've been in previously.


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## IanM (May 11, 2022)

I was shocked how business focused the Workers Councils were when I went to work there.  They were not opposed to productivity measurement systems as they could use improvements to negotiate pay rises and demonstrate where they were under resourced.  

I was also amazed about their political stance on several issues too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2022)

IanM said:



			I was shocked how business focused the Workers Councils were when I went to work there.  They were not opposed to productivity measurement systems as they could use improvements to negotiate pay rises and demonstrate where they were under resourced.

I was also amazed about their political stance on several issues too.  

Click to expand...

My experience of them was limited to struggling to get them to allow me to get German engineers working on a couple of public holidays…IIRC I failed.


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## Mudball (May 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right.  Maybe it was just my companies German workers councils.  But the basic concern such workers councils have seems then to be in respect of recording and hence monitoring and tracking an employees time active on a PC - which for many workers will be deemed to be indicative of their ‘active’ working time.

I certainly knew how to set my status appropriate to what I wanted to be doing when WFH.  But bottom line was that my bosses trusted me to do what I had to do.  I was never once asked why I was showing as Off-line; Away; or Do Not Disturb.
		
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i think it comes down to what kind of job you do...   Most of the German white collared cannot use pc data as they have to do other thigns.  May be different if you are say a Crane Operator.   I still cant see the timesheets our German teams provide


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## Neilds (May 11, 2022)

I went into the office on Monday as part of our fortnightly trip in to say hello.  Think i actually got less done during the day for the following reasons:
Getting a cup of tea took about 10-15 minutes (twice) as I had to queue at the coffee bar.  At home takes 2-3 minutes each time.
Chatting with colleagues as part of the catch up.  WFH have to make a conscious effort to Skype them but can talk at random times, about random things, face to face.
Toilets are further away so takes longer to go, and can get distracted for a chat on way.

Those who try to say WFH doesn't work/is for lazy people/etc need to measure how much work is done, not the hours people are woring


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## Marshy77 (May 11, 2022)

Neilds said:



			I went into the office on Monday as part of our fortnightly trip in to say hello.  Think i actually got less done during the day for the following reasons:
Getting a cup of tea took about 10-15 minutes (twice) as I had to queue at the coffee bar.  At home takes 2-3 minutes each time.
Chatting with colleagues as part of the catch up.  WFH have to make a conscious effort to Skype them but can talk at random times, about random things, face to face.
Toilets are further away so takes longer to go, and can get distracted for a chat on way.

Those who try to say WFH doesn't work/is for lazy people/etc need to measure how much work is done, not the hours people are woring
		
Click to expand...

Plus traveling time. I was in yesterday, mainly for us as a team to be together plus we have our weekly meeting. Our meetings over teams have been taking 30 minutes max, yesterday closer to 70 minutes. 

I understand what people who don't/can't WFH say but do think this change of working/hybrid is definitely more productive from what I've experienced. Slackers will always find a way of slacking. 

I definitely got less done yesterday than at home because of similar distractions you mention above.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



*Plus traveling time.* I was in yesterday, mainly for us as a team to be together plus we have our weekly meeting. Our meetings over teams have been taking 30 minutes max, yesterday closer to 70 minutes.

I understand what people who don't/can't WFH say but do think this change of working/hybrid is definitely more productive from what I've experienced. Slackers will always find a way of slacking.

I definitely got less done yesterday than at home because of similar distractions you mention above.
		
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For a while I was working on a critical project for the BBC at BBC Broadcast Centre top of Wood Lane in London and I had to be on site every day.  It could easily take me 2hrs commute each way…I did it back then but these days if still working - no thankyou.


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## Springveldt (May 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My experience of them was limited to struggling to get them to allow me to get German engineers working on a couple of public holidays…IIRC I failed.
		
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It's the same with my team colleagues in Hamburg. They complain about UK operations raising issues on a Sunday and wanting them fixed that day when they said they are only allowed to work 4 Sunday's per year by law. Kinda blew my mind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			It's the same with my team colleagues in Hamburg. They complain about UK operations raising issues on a Sunday and wanting them fixed that day when they said they are only allowed to work 4 Sunday's per year by law. Kinda blew my mind.
		
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I was able to get the guys (in a Nuremberg data centre) to work a weekend but the BH Monday was a total no-no even though they were willing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2022)

‘Work is not a Place’

…is the emerging view of many senior Civil Servants who testify that, despite the assertions by [redacted] productivity in their teams who WFH has actually gone up compared with pre-pandemic levels. Processing delays being experienced in some departments are not to do with productivity…rather it is a function of the volume of work that has built up over the pandemic.

Indeed I might suggest that WFH enables such as Civil Services departments to recruit more and better from wider afield as the need to travel into an office on a daily basis is removed.  Consequently the backlog should/could be cleared quicker if recruitment is expanded.

Personal experience of my Mrs indicates this to be exactly the case.  Post-pandemic lockdowns her charity employer now gives those on my wife’s team the option to WFH 100% (other than a very occasional training day); 100% Office; or mix.  My wife chooses 100% WFH. Previously all worked in the office.  The employer recently needed to recruit new members into my wife’s team.  In past recruitment of breast cancer nurse specialists to work in central London was problematic.  No longer.  New recruits are from far and wide - choosing the WFH option.

Once they’d sorted the technology and put in place working practices to support WFH, it has been a no-brainier for the charity - it is working supremely well and is saving both the charity and its employees money.


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## Mudball (May 12, 2022)

Last night my laptop stopped working... the flipping thing would not start (or fully shut down).  the light was on but nothing moving.  All panic stations.   So raised a ticket with help desk, and I was planning to drive out to office and get it sorted. I needed someone else to look at it.    I was hoping our IT guy would turn up in the office today.

Went on chat with help desk (no idea where they are based in the Orient) using my mobile.. on chat, he showed me how to do a power reset of the laptop using a small pin.   Job done.

2 hours of mad dash, £15 quid of diesel, plenty of carbon miles and lots of heartache saved... all in the comfort of my PJs..


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## IanM (May 12, 2022)

Most office stuff can be done remotely.   Induction of new starters needs some creative thinking, depending on role and their maturity. 

The genie is out of the bottle and can't be put back in.  Lots of variations will evolve.

Heck, if anyone wants some consultancy support to manage the cultural transition, I'll do a discount for GM Members!  (Or I'll do it for free... aka a SM9 and a few boxes of pro v1s left on the desk! )


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## Mudball (May 16, 2022)

Looks like the twitter warriors are out in support of WFH..  Not that JRM, BoJo or Alan Sugar care or understand about it.  
Without wanting to make this political.... if the Govt is serious about 'levelling up' (whatever that means).. then WFH is brilliant.  No longer do you need to live in an overpriced studio flat in london when you can be anywhere in the country and be part of the Govt...  reduces migration to the cities

https://twitter.com/search?q=#workingfromhome


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## pauljames87 (May 16, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Looks like the twitter warriors are out in support of WFH..  Not that JRM, BoJo or Alan Sugar care or understand about it.  
Without wanting to make this political.... if the Govt is serious about 'levelling up' (whatever that means).. then WFH is brilliant.  No longer do you need to live in an overpriced studio flat in london when you can be anywhere in the country and be part of the Govt...  reduces migration to the cities

https://twitter.com/search?q=#workingfromhome

Click to expand...

Doesn't suit the economy that's been created is the problem 

Building rental.. lunches out ..

Not like us to flog a dead horse as always ..

WFH is an excellent tool


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## D-S (May 16, 2022)

From a carbon footprint point of view, moving millions of people from one point to another at the same time cannot be sensible.
It always amazed that so many people had to make potentially 20-30 minute journeys to arrive at the same time but, due to the need for all of them to arrive at the same time, these journeys took 1-2 hours. Even allowing the first 1-2 hours working from home then commuting mid morning would massively reduce excessive, wasted journey times. At the same time having carbon reduction/time/work life balance benefits.


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## IanM (May 16, 2022)

No


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			No
		
Click to expand...

That’s good to know…


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## Mudball (May 17, 2022)

looks like we are leading in the world in something...  not surprising that the powers to be want us back in the box
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ecreased-20-America-leaders-working-home.html


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## Captainron (May 18, 2022)

I do think that people should be asked to work in the office more. A blend of home and office based working is a place to start for now and then phase in a more prescriptive work from office ethic. 

Companies are paying business rates/rent/mortgages plus loads more on office spaces. The economy relies on this income from business and would need to be replaced somehow.


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## Orikoru (May 18, 2022)

Captainron said:



			I do think that people should be asked to work in the office more. A blend of home and office based working is a place to start for now and then phase in a more prescriptive work from office ethic.

Companies are paying business rates/rent/mortgages plus loads more on office spaces. The economy relies on this income from business and would need to be replaced somehow.
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of companies already reduced their office space from the first few lockdowns though, as has been mentioned in this topic - if everyone went back at once a lot of companies wouldn't even have the space anymore.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Captainron said:



			I do think that people should be asked to work in the office more. A blend of home and office based working is a place to start for now and then phase in a more prescriptive work from office ethic.

Companies are paying business rates/rent/mortgages plus loads more on office spaces. The economy relies on this income from business and would need to be replaced somehow.
		
Click to expand...

just because they have done so in the past doesnt mean we should just sleep walk back into that way of working

the gov only want people back at work because of investments in property and being landlords

lets build a better economy not just flog a dead horse


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## Neilds (May 18, 2022)

I can't understand the concept that people in the office equals more business for coffee shops/cafes etc.  When i used to work in the office, I took a packed lunch and we had a tea swindle so no local business benefited form me being in the office.  Nowadays, with the cost of eating out, more people are being encouraged to take their own lunch so again, no business will benefit.  As usual, it is all smoke and mirrors


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## Mudball (May 18, 2022)

Love how the Daily Mail has made BoE’s WFH policy as one of the causes of inflation…  The things rags do to peddle a story.  Unfortunatley many will believe it too..


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## Mudball (May 18, 2022)

Neilds said:



			I can't understand the concept that people in the office equals more business for coffee shops/cafes etc.  When i used to work in the office, I took a packed lunch and we had a tea swindle so no local business benefited form me being in the office.  Nowadays, with the cost of eating out, more people are being encouraged to take their own lunch so again, no business will benefit.  As usual, it is all smoke and mirrors
		
Click to expand...

Yes and No... depends on family circumstances and work environment.  Not everyone has the luxury of a home cooked meal that they can take to work.  Also many places have no access to food, so you are forced to get something from home or pick up something on the way in.  Having worked in the City, i dont see many packed lunch crowd.  London thrives on people buying food.  Also it not just the lunch sector, you have to consider the bars and pubs that work folks meet up after work.  Also coffee!!   Pret built an empire on London's lunch trade ...


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Neilds said:



			I can't understand the concept that people in the office equals more business for coffee shops/cafes etc.  When i used to work in the office, I took a packed lunch and we had a tea swindle so no local business benefited form me being in the office.  Nowadays, with the cost of eating out, more people are being encouraged to take their own lunch so again, no business will benefit.  As usual, it is all smoke and mirrors
		
Click to expand...

Did you work in London? Any given lunch time the shops and restaurants were/ are rammed with people buying food or overpriced coffee


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Yes and No... depends on family circumstances and work environment.  Not everyone has the luxury of a home cooked meal that they can take to work.  Also many places have no access to food, so you are forced to get something from home or pick up something on the way in.  Having worked in the City, i dont see many packed lunch crowd.  London thrives on people buying food.  Also it not just the lunch sector, you have to consider the bars and pubs that work folks meet up after work.  Also coffee!!   Pret built an empire on London's lunch trade ...
		
Click to expand...

My wife and I are in this situation

I take home cooked food and reheat using the kitchen 

She doesn't have time in her lunch break so just used to take bread to toast 

The toaster is being taken away because the fire service has been out 3 times in 5 years for the toaster setting fire alarm off .. now £500 fine a go .. schools auto fire alarm goes off they can't call them off even if they know it's the toaster


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Yes and No... depends on family circumstances and work environment.  Not everyone has the luxury of a home cooked meal that they can take to work.  Also many places have no access to food, so you are forced to get something from home or pick up something on the way in.  Having worked in the City, i dont see many packed lunch crowd.  London thrives on people buying food.  Also it not just the lunch sector, you have to consider the bars and pubs that work folks meet up after work.  Also coffee!!   Pret built an empire on London's lunch trade ...
		
Click to expand...

I was down in London last summer for a mini break, staying near some major office sites. I was very taken by the world that is built up around offices, coffee shops, sandwich bars etc, the post work visit to the pub as well. It really is very different to the rest of the country in that way. It still exists in other cities but not on the scale of London. WFH will definitely impact those add on businesses far more in London than elsewhere.

As for Pret.........you barely see them up here or in other Northern locations. Maybe in a train station and the odd high street but they are not a player. In London , hundreds of them all over. They are hugely exposed if people do not return in numbers.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was down in London last summer for a mini break, staying near some major office sites. I was very taken by the world that is built up around offices, coffee shops, sandwich bars etc, the post work visit to the pub as well. It really is very different to the rest of the country in that way. It still exists in other cities but not on the scale of London. WFH will definitely impact those add on businesses far more in London than elsewhere.

As for Pret.........you barely see them up here or in other Northern locations. Maybe in a train station and the odd high street but they are not a player. In London , hundreds of them all over. They are hugely exposed if people do not return in numbers.
		
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take a look who invests in these companies and then take a look whos pushing for WFH to end....


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## Neilds (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you work in London? Any given lunch time the shops and restaurants were/ are rammed with people buying food or overpriced coffee
		
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I think we all know that London is not typical of the rest of the country


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## Bunkermagnet (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you work in London? Any given lunch time the shops and restaurants were/ are rammed with people buying food or overpriced coffee
		
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The coffee is only overpriced if you go to one of the fashionable Coffee outlets. I can get 3 cups of quality fresh coffee for the price of 1 of your Starbucks, and I work  in London.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The coffee is only overpriced if you go to one of the fashionable Coffee outlets. I can get 3 cups of quality fresh coffee for the price of 1 of your Starbucks, and I work  in London.
		
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Yes the mccafe range is very reasonable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			just because they have done so in the past doesnt mean we should just sleep walk back into that way of working

the gov only want people back at work because of investments in property and being landlords

lets build a better economy not just flog a dead horse
		
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Indeed - where are the leading manufacturers of gas lamps/lighting these days...ah...electricity came along...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was down in London last summer for a mini break, staying near some major office sites. I was very taken by the world that is built up around offices, coffee shops, sandwich bars etc, the post work visit to the pub as well. It really is very different to the rest of the country in that way. It still exists in other cities but not on the scale of London. WFH will definitely impact those add on businesses far more in London than elsewhere.

As for Pret.........you barely see them up here or in other Northern locations. Maybe in a train station and the odd high street but they are not a player. In London , hundreds of them all over. They are hugely exposed if people do not return in numbers.
		
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Maybe - however the 'dying' high streets of many country and (certainly London) commuter towns might experience a rejuvenation due to more WFH.  There are certainly (early) signs of this in my town.  We can but hope.

As it happens - my daughter (26yrs) has started going back into the office typically 2-3days a week.  She doesn't mind the half hour drive and enjoys the social interaction she gets with others in the office.  Asked whether she could get the same interaction over zoom/Team video calls she said she couldn't as she doesn't actually work directly on anything with the others in her office as the work with other consultants and so they don't ever get together on video conference calls.  I am not sure whether or not she has been asked to go in to the office or if she has been given the choice.  As mentioned my wife was given the choice and has chosen 100% WFH.  The age differential?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - however the 'dying' high streets of many country and (certainly London) commuter towns might experience a rejuvenation due to more WFH.  There are certainly (early) signs of this in my town.  We can but hope.
		
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That is very true and is certainly a plus in spreading out the wealth. It doesn't help the business on a long lease at high rents committed to that city location though. They can't just pick up sticks and re-locate at the drop of a hat.. There will be winners and losers, as always, but for the losers it will be quite brutal.


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## Mudball (May 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - however the 'dying' high streets of many country and (certainly London) commuter towns might experience a rejuvenation due to more WFH.  There are certainly (early) signs of this in my town.  We can but hope.

As it happens - my daughter (26yrs) has started going back into the office typically 2-3days a week.  She doesn't mind the half hour drive and enjoys the social interaction she gets with others in the office.  Asked whether she could get the same interaction over zoom/Team video calls she said she couldn't as she doesn't actually work directly on anything with the others in her office as the work with other consultants and so they don't ever get together on video conference calls.  I am not sure whether or not she has been asked to go in to the office or if she has been given the choice.  As mentioned my wife was given the choice and has chosen 100% WFH.  The age differential?
		
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WFH has been brutal to the younger workforce.  Their lack of experience of an office is not going to help.  We saw it have a lot of down side for the young esp those who live in London and are suddenly forced to WFH in small london flats along with their partners.  The oldies dont want to go in.   Tomorrow, I have a large client meeting in London where we have  people from various parts of the country + Europe jetting it.   Spend the day in a room in London office.  It will be like 2018 all over again.. Cant Wait


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## Mike79 (May 18, 2022)

We've been told 2-3 days in the office, which I am doing. The social interaction is a bonus, but due to a dispersed team in multiple locations, and the 2-3 days not being the same for everyone, I spend my day in the office on Teams calls rather than being back in meeting rooms... no different to when I am at home. Except working at home is a better environment as less background noise (nobody sitting at the desk beside me also on a Teams call!). 

Finding recruitment a challenge, as "the market" appears to show fully remote or only in the office when needed is the "new norm" as so nobody will sign up to 2-3 days.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

Mudball said:



			WFH has been brutal to the younger workforce.  Their lack of experience of an office is not going to help.  We saw it have a lot of down side for the young esp those who live in London and are suddenly forced to WFH in small london flats along with their partners.  The oldies dont want to go in.   Tomorrow, I have a large client meeting in London where we have  people from various parts of the country + Europe jetting it.   Spend the day in a room in London office.  It will be like 2018 all over again.. Cant Wait
		
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My  son will be starting his first job, graduate trainee, in Bristol in September. He will have limited work level experience, knows no one in the city. He will be in the workplace, either office or on site, and is hoping there will be plenty of others doing the same. If the bulk are working from home........


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## Bunkermagnet (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes the mccafe range is very reasonable.
		
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Dont have anything from McDonalds, so have no idea on the coffee there.


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## Lilyhawk (May 18, 2022)

I understand the sentiment of wanting people back in the office to get the cities back to life. However, for me, if I had to go back in 5 days a week the only ones who’d get any extra money again would be the train line as there’s no way I could/would spend any money in the city. Travel alone would come to £400 a month, meaning I’d go in to work and straight back home. As it is now, going in 1-2 days a week, I do occasionally stay for a few drinks, going to a restaurant etc. That won’t happen if going back to “normal” as that money would be spent on the travel itself.


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## Reemul (May 19, 2022)

I live 2 minutes from my office, I can wfh 2 or 3 days a week if I want. 90% of the office work from home at least 3 days a week, a few only come in for 1 day. I like the office environment but most of the time I am in the office on my own and might as well be at home for all the interaction I get.

I work with someone who is a skiver, he is generally behind with his work and likes to wfh on busy days or Monday's and Friday's. However when he is in the office he is in the toilet for 30 mins a time (normally twice) and wandering around the office or on his mobile and not actually getting on with it.

We are managed centrally and he needs managing directly which does not happen, wfh or in the office he isn't interested.

Also my company is in many ways to blame for the poor performance of some and wfh.

Another colleague had a baby and now only comes in the office once a week as she needs to be at home with the child, now she is pregnant again and is apparently going to work from home permanently. Personally I do not understand how you can work from home and look after 2 kids under 3 at the same time, I could not have done my job well or properly. But the managers seem to lack the balls to actually stop it happening and this is the stuff that gives the anti wfh all the ammunition they need.

I have always been self motivated and hard working so where I work really doesn't matter


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2022)

Reemul said:



			I live 2 minutes from my office, I can wfh 2 or 3 days a week if I want. 90% of the office work from home at least 3 days a week, a few only come in for 1 day. I like the office environment but most of the time I am in the office on my own and might as well be at home for all the interaction I get.

I work with someone who is a skiver, he is generally behind with his work and likes to wfh on busy days or Monday's and Friday's. However when he is in the office he is in the toilet for 30 mins a time (normally twice) and wandering around the office or on his mobile and not actually getting on with it.

We are managed centrally and he needs managing directly which does not happen, wfh or in the office he isn't interested.

Also my company is in many ways to blame for the poor performance of some and wfh.

Another colleague had a baby and now only comes in the office once a week as she needs to be at home with the child, now she is pregnant again and is apparently going to work from home permanently. Personally I do not understand how you can work from home and look after 2 kids under 3 at the same time, I could not have done my job well or properly. But the managers seem to lack the balls to actually stop it happening and this is the stuff that gives the anti wfh all the ammunition they need.

I have always been self motivated and hard working so where I work really doesn't matter
		
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I know my friend who works from home with a child sends her daughter to childminder twice a week to help her work, and those days she doesn't need to send to childminder as long as no commute 

She will work when her daughter naps and after bedtime rather than 9-5 set


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## PhilTheFragger (May 19, 2022)

Political posts will be removed and the perps infracted


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## Mudball (May 19, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I know my friend who works from home with a child sends her daughter to childminder twice a week to help her work, and those days she doesn't need to send to childminder as long as no commute

She will work when her daughter naps and after bedtime rather than 9-5 set
		
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People will make arrangements based on circumstances and motivation.. a colleague used to start work at 6:30.. stop for school runs and then she would finish at 3:30 when her daughter was due back from school.. so it is possible. 

Having said that I agree with @Reemul ’s point.. having 2 under 3 does not lend well to wfh.  Though it will depend on nature of job.


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## Mudball (May 19, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Political posts will be removed and the perps infracted
		
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Tbh.. not sure how it is political to point out that the person instigating the end of wfh is being called up. He may be a politician but he is relevant to the conversation. Please look at context. 

Otherwise post like saying an MP had been accused of doing something nasty will be deemed political too 

Just my 2c


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## PhilTheFragger (May 19, 2022)

CBA to discuss it, 
Thread closed


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