# "Most Powerful Move In Golf" Martin Ayers



## white_feather (Jun 14, 2013)

Has anyone seen this instructional download?

Is it worth purchasing?

Martin Ayers is a golf coach from Australia, who now works in the States and works with Steve Elkington.

I wondered if anyone out there had watched his DVD?


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## Hunka Turf (Jun 14, 2013)

Not seen it but Elkington has a great, simple action so clearly this guy knows what he's talking about


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## Doh (Jun 14, 2013)

There is a lot on youtube about this, some with Elkington doing a clinic , but I think you need to get the DVD to get the gist of it.


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## Andr3w (Jun 14, 2013)

Doh said:



			There is a lot on youtube about this, some with Elkington doing a clinic , but I think you need to get the DVD to get the gist of it.
		
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I've got the DVD. To be honest I've watched it a couple of times and still don't really know quite what the move is. It seems to be all about generating opposing torques between your hands... or something. He describes it as a feel that you can't actually see in the swing itself. If I was being cynical I'd say this is just some snake oil and wouldn't read too much into the Elkington association. 

If you want more power, I'd just stick to the fundamentals.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Andr3w said:



			I've got the DVD. To be honest I've watched it a couple of times and still don't really know quite what the move is. It seems to be all about generating opposing torques between your hands... or something. He describes it as a feel that you can't actually see in the swing itself. If I was being cynical I'd say this is just some snake oil and wouldn't read too much into the Elkington association. 

If you want more power, I'd just stick to the fundamentals.
		
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I tend to agree. 

Elkington has a backbone of S&T but he's putting his own spin on it and trying to monetise it for himself as 'secret in the dirt'.

.... and he also comes across as a right nut-job!

Power comes from swing speed and consistently hitting the sweetspot, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Andr3w (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I tend to agree. 

Elkington has a backbone of S&T but he's putting his own spin on it and trying to monetise it for himself as 'secret in the dirt'.

.... and he also comes across as a right nut-job!

Power comes from swing speed and consistently hitting the sweetspot, nothing more, nothing less.
		
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Indeed he doesn't appear to be the most popular player on tour. 

The other guy in secret in the dirt 'sevam1' seems to be a bit of a internet sensation as well. His method is based around opposing torques in the feet I think... how anyone is suppose to swing with their hands and feet all going different ways against each other and the body's momentum I'm not sure. Seems like you'll just get all tangled up and duff it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 14, 2013)

There is actually a bit more to power than just swing speed and hitting the sweetspot. Weight transfer has a lot to do with it as well. Bit like boxing, fast hands won't give you a knockout punch, you need the weight transfer behind the punch to generate the power. 

Elkington has always been known for his simple uncomplicated swing, sounds to me like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon and trying to claim some of Elk's success, unless of course he has been working with him for a long time?


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## Andr3w (Jun 14, 2013)

drive4show said:



			There is actually a bit more to power than just swing speed and hitting the sweetspot. Weight transfer has a lot to do with it as well. Bit like boxing, fast hands won't give you a knockout punch, you need the weight transfer behind the punch to generate the power. 

Elkington has always been known for his simple uncomplicated swing, sounds to me like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon and trying to claim some of Elk's success, unless of course he has been working with him for a long time?
		
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I think they're just buddies and Elk is trying some new things out in the twilight of his career and helping his buddy at the same time. 

Elkington is a super talented PGA tour player and could probably hit the ball from any position.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

drive4show said:



			There is actually a bit more to power than just swing speed and hitting the sweetspot. Weight transfer has a lot to do with it as well. Bit like boxing, fast hands won't give you a knockout punch, you need the weight transfer behind the punch to generate the power.
		
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It's not the same with golf as you are not hitting the ball, the club is. The club face only remains in contact with the ball some 2/1000ths of a second whereas with a punch the fist would be in contact a lot longer if you 'hit thru' thereby transferring more energy. This is not possible when hitting a ball. Weight thru in golf is just there to assist you to maximise your clubhead speed, maintain your balance and control your path/angle of attack, you don't have to do it though.... lots of people hang back and bomb it.

It's impossible to 'muscle the ball', only swinging faster and finding the sweetspot works.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Andr3w said:



			I think they're just buddies and Elk is trying some new things out in the twilight of his career and helping his buddy at the same time. 

Elkington is a super talented PGA tour player and could probably hit the ball from any position.
		
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I think that Sevam1 explained his technique of pre-torquing the right leg to Elk who 'loved it' and proclaimed it a 'secret'. The rest is marketing. Ironically the other 99% of his 'teaching' is pure S&T.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			It's impossible to 'muscle the ball', only swinging faster and finding the sweetspot works.
		
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yep - those using string and rubber shafts providing a good illustration of this.

you can use muscles,  powerfull moves etc to generate clubhead speed but the clubhead should be considered free floating through impact.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 14, 2013)

So based on what you guys are saying, weight transfer doesn't matter??

So explain to me please how some guys with easy languid swings get the ball a long way out there? My swing speed with driver is around 98mph but I can knock it further than a couple of my mates who are well over 100mph.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

drive4show said:



			So based on what you guys are saying, weight transfer doesn't matter??

So explain to me please how some guys with easy languid swings get the ball a long way out there? My swing speed with driver is around 98mph but I can knock it further than a couple of my mates who are well over 100mph.
		
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That would be purely the impact conditions (loft, angle of attack, centeredness of strike and to a degree the mass of the clubhead/the COG/COR of the face), all things being equal they would hit it further than you.

As Duncan alluded to the club is a free weight on the end of a (very stiff) piece of string, all you can do is accelerate it in an arc as fast as you possibly can. You can't hit the ball 'hard', only fast.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			That would be purely the impact conditions (loft, angle of attack, centeredness of strike and to a *degree the mass of the clubhead*/the COG/COR of the face), all things being equal they would hit it further than you.
		
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My point exactly. There is more to it than just speed. Mass is the same thing as having weight behind the ball.

A good example of this is how sometimes when you appear to hit the ball easy it goes for miles because the timing and weight transfer are spot on.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

drive4show said:



			My point exactly. There is more to it than just speed. Mass is the same thing as having weight behind the ball.

A good example of this is how sometimes when you appear to hit the ball easy it goes for miles because the timing and weight transfer are spot on.
		
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That is just swing speed and a centered strike. There are no other parts. You could deloft the club and get more yardage but your playing partners would still hit it further than you if they did the same.

Generally more mass (heavier clubhead) would result in less speed.... that is why the tour guys 'work out' so they can accelerate more mass (although generally they use the same mass clubs as you and I but just accelerate it faster than you and I - swing speed) but you can't add mass by 'getting your weight thru'... only swing speed and/or improved launch conditions (where applicable).


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			That is just swing speed and a centered strike. There are no other parts. You could deloft the club and get more yardage but your playing partners would still hit it further than you if they did the same.

Generally more mass (heavier clubhead) would result in less speed.... that is why the tour guys 'work out' so they can accelerate more mass (although generally they use the same mass clubs as you and I bit just accelerate it faster that you and I - swing speed) but you can't add mass by 'getting your weight thru'... only swing speed and/or improved launch conditions (where applicable).
		
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OK if you say so


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Here you go....  following a similar conversation to this one (with one of my mates) I posed exactly the same question a few months ago (using your analogy of a boxing punch too!!!)

See what conclusion you come to....

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/815545-is-it-physically-possible-to-hit-a-ball-hard/


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## Region3 (Jun 14, 2013)

You can use muscle to generate faster rotation, but trying to 'push' the club through harder is a waste of time.

I read an article ages ago that said even if you had arms like popeye and timed it perfectly, actually trying to push the club through the ball faster only added about 0.1mph to clubhead speed.


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## Andr3w (Jun 14, 2013)

When I go for a session on trackman or flightscope there isn't a statistic for how much mass I put behind the ball. The ball just does not know how heavy you weight or how much weight transfer you achieved.


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## USER1999 (Jun 14, 2013)

I think weight shift in the down swing helps to load the shaft in some way.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			That is just swing speed and a centered strike. There are no other parts. You could deloft the club and get more yardage but your playing partners would still hit it further than you if they did the same.

Generally more mass (heavier clubhead) would result in less speed.... that is why the tour guys 'work out' so they can accelerate more mass (although generally they use the same mass clubs as you and I but just accelerate it faster than you and I - swing speed) but you can't add mass by 'getting your weight thru'... only swing speed and/or improved launch conditions (where applicable).
		
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technically your 3 variables, outwith any material elements associated with the clubhead and ball, are the energy in the clubhead (clubhead mass x it's velocity squared), the application of this known as the smash factor relating to the impact conditions (clubface square to swing path in all planes being max) which together produce the energy and transfer it to the ball - and finally the actual launch conditions wil dictate what happens with that energy, and can therefore affect distance through launch angle and  trajectory.

that the energy is a function of the mass and velocity squared is why heavier heads don't provide more distance.

interestingly a lighter ball will leave the clubhead faster - but from then drag will have a bigger impact on it's travel so it won't go further..


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I think weight shift in the down swing helps to load the shaft in some way.
		
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Indeed.... but the club bending backwards would not be adding any speed. It would also NOT unload if the swing pressure remained constant. How much it adds if you stall your swing (slow it down at impact) allowing the shaft to unload would only make up for the loss of speed you had in the first place stalling your swing, if at all. Swing super hard and the shaft would never unload... so then you just go to a stiffer shaft so you can control the direction the club face is pointing at impact but not for any 'swing speed gains'.


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## Stuey01 (Jun 14, 2013)

I agree it's all about speed. But to say its just about swinging faster is oversimplifying. How do you swing faster? Being stronger helps, most important is sound technique, lag, hip rotation, weight transfer all contribute to speed.
 If they are promoting a technique that helps generate more club head speed then maybe there is something in it.
I'm guessing snake oil...


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

There's some interesting physics/equations involved in understanding collisions... I spent long enough learning about golf swings and thought learning degree standard physics was just taking it a little bit too far.

An interesting one is a club head swung at 100mph would go (for example) 250yds...

If you used an 8ft tee peg (one of those new TaylorMade ones! LOL) and tee'd the ball up on a train track to be hit by the 12 carriage, 1200 passenger filled, 15.04 from London Bridge to Brighton at 100mph (weighing approximately 900 tons) would the ball go to the moon given the mass of the train compared to your piddly little clubhead?


(No is the answer by the way)


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## garyinderry (Jun 14, 2013)

anyone know a definition of "smash factor" for dummies?


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Ball speed divided by club head speed.

It's the transfer of power from club to ball, not exceeding 1.5
So a ball hit at 100mph would never exceed 150mph flight speed.

If it was going at 143mph you could have hit it better


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 14, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			anyone know a definition of "smash factor" for dummies?
		
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It's the relationship between clubhead speed and ball speed.

For example.....

club head speed of 100mph and a ball speed of 145mph = smash factor of 1.45

:thup:


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## Stuey01 (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Ball speed divided by club head speed.

It's the transfer of power from club to ball, not exceeding 1.5
So a ball hit at 100mph would never exceed 150mph flight speed.
		
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Unless you have a trampoline faced driver surely?
The nike covert tour was coming out at 1.49 average when I tested it, with a few under and a few over 1.5,  but that is probably within the margin for error on the flightscope.  It had a hot face anyway.


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Stuey01 said:



			Unless you have a trampoline faced driver surely?
The nike covert tour was coming out at 1.49 average when I tested it, with a few under and a few over 1.5,  but that is probably within the margin for error on the flightscope.  It had a hot face anyway.
		
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In theory the club would be illegal but I have had smash factors of 1.52 myself with perfectly legal clubs so can only assume it's an error in the preciseness of the equipment (and that was with Trackman).


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## garyinderry (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Ball speed divided by club head speed.

It's the transfer of power from club to ball, not exceeding 1.5
So a ball hit at 100mph would never exceed 150mph flight speed.

If it was going at 143mph you could have hit it better 

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is how square you catch it the big determining factor?


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			is how square you catch it the big determining factor?
		
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How square you hit it in relation to the path you are swinging on is certainly a part of it, but you could be out by a degree or two and not lose as much as you might if you hit it off the heel. Centeredness of strike is one of the most mentioned parts (so you get the full available response of the club face). I don't know the exact impact conditions for a perfect 1.5 smash factor and what the influences are if you're a degree out with your path/face ratio. I know you can slow your swing and yet with a more centered hit actually get an increased smash factor (relative to that slower speed) but the ball won't actually go as far as you're using less speed.... but some people DO appear to hit it further with a slower swing.... (or at least what they _perceive_ to be a slower swing).


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## garyinderry (Jun 14, 2013)

have you ever had a driver fitting JO?   im pretty sure I catch it in the middle of the bat most times as my 910 is peppered in the middle. its my path that's all over the shop!  lol   potentially lowering my smash factor. 

I tempted to go for a fitting soon. just out of curiosity.   my driver is a passenger at the minute. the adams super hybid pisses all over it from a great height in terms of performance.  serious fairway finder and as phil was saying about his frankenwood, its hot, hot!


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## Qwerty (Jun 14, 2013)

My brain is beginning to hurt!


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## garyinderry (Jun 14, 2013)

that's easy for you to say, you just shift the decimal place to the right.  smash factor of 15  :lol:


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

I've had 4 trackman sessions. The best was at a Callaway demo day where they had all their latest clubs/shafts set up so you could see your figures... I bought the FTiQ as it was by far the best. I've been fitted at Ping HQ but the selection of available heads/shafts was poor... although I don't do too bad with that club either.

The fitting isn't going to change your swing but you might find a shaft that is more suitable to your swing speed that subsequently puts the club head in a better position for optimal flight. It might be alignment (face direction) or it might be launch conditions (face angle). It would be hard (impossible) to say without a fitting what would suit you best as you may need a heavier shaft or a lighter one, more flex or less.


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2013)

Always interesting to see how a thread on quite a specific topic morph!

As far as the original post is concerned, I've seen (not bought) the video (a long time ago) and thought 'OK, another technique that might help' but it wasn't for me. In my case it actually worked against my 'natural' flow (developed through 35 years or more of hockey). I'm actually trying a slightly more conventional change of technique, that probably has as little chance of success, so won't condemn any 'magic move' - even though a Pro mate of mine considers it a waste of time.

As far as striking the ball is concerned, I agree with most, if not all, of what JO states. Initial flight is purely about what is happening at impact - the 5 Ball Flight Laws - along with the physical attributes (mass and loft) the club (mainly head) and ball (which also has an effect later). In my opinion, getting 1 of those variables - swing speed - to be maximum at impact isn't significantly affected by the movement element of weight transfer (possibly 0.5mph and a tiny amount of momentum) but the act of transferring weight puts the body in the right position(s) to optimise all the other contributing variables - most of the powerful muscles are 'forward oriented'. Bigger muscles can obviously help here. Timing the 'release' properly - and that involves significant speed changes - is way more important than the mere act of moving forward.

Of course, optimising the 'centredness of strike' is another way to improve results and this, imo, is the major goal of S&T - and the 'swing it better, not harder' approaches.

So my advice to the OP is...try it if you wish - and without prejudice, but be prepared to be disappointed. Don't give up on finding your own 'magic move' but it will almost certainly be different to mine!


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## JustOne (Jun 14, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I'm actually trying a slightly more conventional change of technique, that probably has as little chance of success, so won't condemn any 'magic move'
		
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Time to share...

What's your change?


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Time to share...

What's your change? 

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A (slightly manufactured) attempt to 'hold the lag'. There's a good effect on the ball flight - and distance - when it's all synced.


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