# 4:15hr is actually a pretty reasonable pace of play for our group



## Slab (Feb 17, 2014)

To qualify the post title Iâ€™m talking about mixed ability players on a busy but not overloaded course... however 4:15hr is 25 minutes longer than the R&A state and about an hour longer than weâ€™re told it used to take in the good olâ€™ days!

Under the above conditions 4:00 hours is a very good pace and 4:30 is the limit of whatâ€™s acceptable but 4:30 is also the most common pace for a round and now we're 40 minutes â€˜overâ€™  

Letâ€™s assume the good olâ€™ days are long gone but is the R&A maximum of 3:50 for a fourball a bit of a red herring giving rise to false expectations of the time it takes to play golf as it is today?

Iâ€™m sure the 3:50 figure is the result of analysis but is it representative of the average field of fourballs or is it likely to be the pace for a single fourball on a pretty empty course rather than the pace for a _field _of fourballs 

3:50 means a low average of just 11 minutes per hole and under 2 minutes in-between holes and seems a tough pace on paper... but thatâ€™s a pretty high standard of FIR for up to sixty players and doesnâ€™t appear to leave much (if any) scope for delays, lost ball searches etc

I said sixty players because of course in order for the second and subsequent fourball to get round in 3:50 all the groups in front have to get round in 3:50 too (Iâ€™m not really interested in one fourball going round in 4hrs if it means steam-rollering through the field with an _Iâ€™m alright Jack_ mentality)

No desire to play speed golf but still enjoy some banter (obviously not when able to play) and thereâ€™s 10 minute tee spacing already used on a course of championship length & standard 

So how/can we, get round times down?
_(Ideally looking for some inventive suggestions rather than the â€˜leave clubs next to exit of greenâ€™ type and would prefer to steer clear of punitive measures as like most golfers we play for fun)_


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## woody69 (Feb 17, 2014)

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't understand the obsession with getting round as quickly as possible and 4hrs 15 is perfectly acceptable to me. If someone wants to go through, I always let them. I don't dawdle and try to always keep up with the group in front, but I don't run either. I enjoy my golf, out on the course in the fresh air and the socialising between shots. At the same time, I've thought about my shot and I'm ready to go when it's my turn. 

It usually takes about 4 hours for me in a 4 ball on "most courses" and I don't think that is "slow". I agree that waiting around on every tee, or for every shot is tiresome, but it so rarely happens.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

Rounds at our place rarely take more than 4 hours


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## gazrow (Feb 17, 2014)

woody69 said:



			Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't understand the obsession with getting round as quickly as possible and 4hrs 15 is perfectly acceptable to me. If someone wants to go through, I always let them. I don't dawdle and try to always keep up with the group in front, but I don't run either. I enjoy my golf, out on the course in the fresh air and the socialising between shots. At the same time, I've thought about my shot and I'm ready to go when it's my turn. 

It usually takes about 4 hours for me in a 4 ball on "most courses" and I don't think that is "slow". I agree that waiting around on every tee, or for every shot is tiresome, but it so rarely happens.
		
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+ 1


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## SGC001 (Feb 17, 2014)

Slab said:



			To qualify the post title Iâ€™m talking about mixed ability players on a busy but not overloaded course... however 4:15hr is 25 minutes longer than the R&A state and about an hour longer than weâ€™re told it used to take in the good olâ€™ days!

Under the above conditions 4:00 hours is a very good pace and 4:30 is the limit of whatâ€™s acceptable but 4:30 is also the most common pace for a round and now we're 40 minutes â€˜overâ€™  

Letâ€™s assume the good olâ€™ days are long gone but is the R&A maximum of 3:50 for a fourball a bit of a red herring giving rise to false expectations of the time it takes to play golf as it is today?

Iâ€™m sure the 3:50 figure is the result of analysis but is it representative of the average field of fourballs or is it likely to be the pace for a single fourball on a pretty empty course rather than the pace for a _field _of fourballs 

3:50 means a low average of just 11 minutes per hole and under 2 minutes in-between holes and seems a tough pace on paper... but thatâ€™s a pretty high standard of FIR for up to sixty players and doesnâ€™t appear to leave much (if any) scope for delays, lost ball searches etc

I said sixty players because of course in order for the second and subsequent fourball to get round in 3:50 all the groups in front have to get round in 3:50 too (Iâ€™m not really interested in one fourball going round in 4hrs if it means steam-rollering through the field with an _Iâ€™m alright Jack_ mentality)

No desire to play speed golf but still enjoy some banter (obviously not when able to play) and thereâ€™s 10 minute tee spacing already used on a course of championship length & standard 

So how/can we, get round times down?
_(Ideally looking for some inventive suggestions rather than the â€˜leave clubs next to exit of greenâ€™ type and would prefer to steer clear of punitive measures as like most golfers we play for fun)_

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It really is about the basics for instance you mention lost ball searches adding time call people through as soon as it becomes evident you won't easily find it.

Also I don't consider 3 hours 50 to be unreasonable to achieve except in the sense of how long it takes, I can remember strolling round in a 3 ball in around 2 hours.

Apart from basic golfing etiquette in terms of been ready to play when it's your turn and leaving equipment in appropriate places areas such as course set up (pin positions, severity of course set up, rough etc: ), spotters in certain areas can impact time.

You say steer clear of punitive measures, but a fairly reasonable one an old club of mine did was to monitor groups, any above 4 hours and over 12 mins behind the group ahead got a bad time. 3 bad times and you went to the back of the field. It helped to identify slow players, but meant that if you were unlucky enough to be drawn with one, it was only 1 bad time and no penalty.

People need to be educated and made aware that they are slow and need to adjust what they do in line with showing consideration for others including letting faster groups through which doesn't happen enough imo.


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

I agree that golf isn't a sprint. Playing in less than 4 hours might be the dream for many, but I play to enjoy company with friends and family, not to boast about how quick I can play a round.

I agree that there are things like being ready to hit a shot that can help - but, if all 4 people are ready to hit there shot & 2 of those 4 hook / slice the ball and lose sight of it, you're in a worse place than if all 4 were keeping an eye so there's at least one person who's able to see where the stray ball goes. It's just an example, and I'm sure there are 100's of for and against's, I'm just saying it isn't always black & white. 

What I find a problem are the morons who decide to play up within an inch of you when there is nowhere to go. If there's a 1 hole gap, play on through us, no problems. But when we're ALL waiting on the tee for 10 minutes, don't play up on the green then moment the flag stick is back in the hole, or play your tee shot the second we've hit our 2nd shot. We've had some really bad experiences over the (few) rounds this winter of idiots playing up without a shout. All because they want to get to the hole as quickly as possible, just to sit for 10 minutes at the next tee whilst the people 2 groups ahead are still in sight on the fairway!!


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.
		
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That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.


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## davidy233 (Feb 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.
		
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Agree with this to an extent though not the having gone through pre-shot bit - amount of people who stand (in the approved position) and watch fellow players hit their shot before walking to their own ball to get ready to play their shot is unreal - when you walk off the tee walk to your ball, get your distance worked out and be ready to go when it's your turn.

Don't think I've ever played a four hour plus competition round in Scotland - could be five hours when I was down South


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play *but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play*.
		
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It doesn't have to at all. Sometimes maybe if you are right in the way of another player but you can be ready to play your shot most of the time.


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## srixon 1 (Feb 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			One thing to improve speed is each player being ready to hit the ball when the last player has played. That doesn't mean ready to start their pre shot, I mean actually ready to strike the ball.
		
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G_Mulligan said:



			That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.
		
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If it is a gusting wind it is not always possible to pick which club you are going to use too far in advance. And I am sure that for some players, removing the club from their bag is part of their pre-shot routine anyway.


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

srixon 1 said:



			If it is a gusting wind it is not always possible to pick which club you are going to use too far in advance. And I am sure that for some players, removing the club from their bag is part of their pre-shot routine anyway.
		
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I will let you off if its blowing a hoolie  I meant just as a general rule in average conditions. Although average conditions are getting worse by the week :rofl:


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 17, 2014)

The hard part is educating people that are slow and holding up the field without offending people - which is neigh on impossible.

Nobody want's to be called slow on the course, and everybody has a selfish "it's not me, it's the others in the group" type attitude, but the fact is, if you've lost a hole or more on the group in front, you're negatively affecting the whole field.

There needs to be less of a stigma for those that are slow, so that they can simply wave people through, or get a move on without getting all defensive.

And people need to stop being idiots. A guys two groups in front of us holding up the entire course yesterday had played 6 and was still 300+ yards out in the stableford but insisted on taking the rest of his 10+ shots - not picking his ball up when he could no longer score or waving the two groups stood on the tee through.


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## BoadieBroadus (Feb 17, 2014)

i'll give you that some players tend to be a bit more ponderous than others but unless a full four ball is really taking a long time over each shot, pace of play in the groups I play in is almost always determined by the numbers of hard to find shots that are hit by the players.

our course is tight, so there tends to be a fair amount of looking in trees, and it is etiquette that all players should help in the search for a ball. if you have two wayward players having bad days, no amount of being ready to play your own shot is going to help make up the time. if all 4 are helping look for a ball fo 3 minutes on one hole, then again on the next and then again 2 holes later, your group will be slow, maybe not quite slow enough to warrant the group behind being called through, but still slow.

the guys I play with are generally good "ready" players, but hold ups on the course occur because of the regularity of "hard to find" golf balls.

does anyone really call a group through because you think it might take a couple of minutes to find one ball when the other three are on the fairway?


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## Slab (Feb 17, 2014)

Thanks for replies so far

I really have no wish for playing as quickly as possible but if the course say 4:10 and I'm in a group at 4:35 with only a couple of waits on tee shots then we're doing something wrong or the pace is set wrongly for that day 

I do wonder if pace of play of a course is always set by the correct course evaluation or perhaps just based on whats required/desired

Old course @ 3:57 yet Kingsbarns @ 4:40 although similar length courses off the equivalent yellows


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## G_Mulligan (Feb 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			It doesn't have to at all. Sometimes maybe if you are right in the way of another player but you can be ready to play your shot most of the time.
		
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what if you go through your routine off to the side of someone when you are not in their eye line, which would be rare if they are before you, but you still have to wait for them to take your shot. The whole point of the PSR is to prepare yourself to hit a shot. You can't do it and then stand over the ball for any length of time or it is pointless. Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute at the most. 

As dufferman said, what if your playing partner asks if you saw it? No sorry I was going through my own routine ready to play my own shot. Not good etiquette for me. I agree pre shot routines can take too long, players taking an age, and not doing the stuff I mentioned above (wind, club etc.) before there shot. But I don't think a regular PSR is responsible for slow play in fact hitting the ball better, more often should speed things up not slow it down overall.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I agree that golf isn't a sprint. Playing in less than 4 hours might be the dream for many, but I play to enjoy company with friends and family, not to boast about how quick I can play a round.

I agree that there are things like being ready to hit a shot that can help - but, if all 4 people are ready to hit there shot & 2 of those 4 hook / slice the ball and lose sight of it, you're in a worse place than if all 4 were keeping an eye so there's at least one person who's able to see where the stray ball goes. It's just an example, and I'm sure there are 100's of for and against's, I'm just saying it isn't always black & white. 

What I find a problem are the morons who decide to play up within an inch of you when there is nowhere to go. If there's a 1 hole gap, play on through us, no problems. But when we're ALL waiting on the tee for 10 minutes, don't play up on the green then moment the flag stick is back in the hole, or play your tee shot the second we've hit our 2nd shot. We've had some really bad experiences over the (few) rounds this winter of idiots playing up without a shout. All because they want to get to the hole as quickly as possible, just to sit for 10 minutes at the next tee whilst the people 2 groups ahead are still in sight on the fairway!!
		
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It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			That won't work for me. How can you already have gone through your pre shot routine while others are playing? That would mean being ahead of them in the fairway, making practice swings and whatever else you need to do. Obviously to a certain extent you can club yourself, judge wind and conditions, and type of shot you want to play but the actual pre shot routine itself has to wait until it is your turn to play.
		
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Pre-shot routines are one of the causes of slow play, and aren't necessary...







...runs for cover


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## Slab (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf
		
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Hi, to help put this in context can you say what the stated expected round time is during the summer at your course? (doesn't need to be specific for play on a particular day)


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 17, 2014)

BoadieBroadus said:



			does anyone really call a group through because you think it might take a couple of minutes to find one ball when the other three are on the fairway?
		
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Not saying this to be an arse, but yes. If three of us find our balls but the other is obviously struggling and could be looking a while, and there's a group on the tee, we'll wave them down. If they find it whilst we're hitting, we'll carry on up and likely stay ahead of them. If we still can't find it, or we find it as they arrive at their seconds, let them through.

What's the alternative? Not let them through, then the guy loses his ball, then has to go back to the tee and is walking back up whilst they're hitting down? That's no good for anyone. Let them hit down and let them through 'on the move'. Speeds up play for everyone.


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## SGC001 (Feb 17, 2014)

R and A link

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Pace-of-Play.aspx

edit another link

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Etiquette/Keeping-Pace.aspx please note the comments under the heading lost ball.


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			what if you go through your routine off to the side of someone when you are not in their eye line, which would be rare if they are before you, but you still have to wait for them to take your shot. The whole point of the PSR is to prepare yourself to hit a shot. You can't do it and then stand over the ball for any length of time or it is pointless. Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute at the most. 

As dufferman said, what if your playing partner asks if you saw it? No sorry I was going through my own routine ready to play my own shot. Not good etiquette for me. I agree pre shot routines can take too long, players taking an age, and not doing the stuff I mentioned above (wind, club etc.) before there shot. But I don't think a regular PSR is responsible for slow play in fact hitting the ball better, more often should speed things up not slow it down overall.
		
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Not every player in the group has to stand and watch every shot do they? An extra 30 seconds per shot as you say for all 4 players probably adds on around 45 mins ish per round.

How do you think people years ago used to play golf without so much hold up? Above is your answer.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute at the most.
		
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Trouble is that if all 4 people are doing that for a minute on each shot, then on an average par 4 with average players you are having 10 odd minutes of pre-shot routines with nothing actually happening in terms of ball or person advancing forwards.  Also the vast majority of people I see going through all the above rigmarole then go and slice or duff it.  

If you are going to do all that every time and then ping a 4 iron to 6 yards then great.  If you are going to do all that every time as you have seen a pro on the telly do it then slice an 8 iron into the trees then not good.  Walk up, hit it, move on is my motto.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

Slab said:



			Hi, to help put this in context can you say what the stated expected round time is during the summer at your course? (doesn't need to be specific for play on a particular day)
		
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No idea, it just rarely takes longer than 4 hours


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## SGC001 (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			what if you go through your routine off to the side of someone when you are not in their eye line, which would be rare if they are before you, but you still have to wait for them to take your shot. The whole point of the PSR is to prepare yourself to hit a shot. You can't do it and then stand over the ball for any length of time or it is pointless. Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute at the most. 

As dufferman said, what if your playing partner asks if you saw it? No sorry I was going through my own routine ready to play my own shot. Not good etiquette for me. I agree pre shot routines can take too long, players taking an age, and not doing the stuff I mentioned above (wind, club etc.) before there shot. But I don't think a regular PSR is responsible for slow play in fact hitting the ball better, more often should speed things up not slow it down overall.
		
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Your routine should not take a minute, any effective pre-shot routine should not see you incurring penalties were you on the clock. There are guidelines for times to take a shot depending whether you are 1st to play or 2nd, playing an approach...

Please see the 1st link I posted earlier and view the video.


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## srixon 1 (Feb 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I will let you off if its blowing a hoolie  I meant just as a general rule in average conditions. Although average conditions are getting worse by the week :rofl:
		
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I know what you mean. It is really annoying when you are 50 yards ahead of someone on the fairway, and after walking to your ball you turn round and see that they are still nowhere near ready to take their shot.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf
		
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I think that all depends on the type of course you are playing and what format you are playing and relying on people to pick up if they cant score. 

If they are members who play the course several times they will be a lot faster and will obviously pick up if they cant score. 

If the group are visitors they may want to hole out and this may add a few mins per round.

Some are going to be under 4 hours if the course is set up that tees are easy to get to from the greens so they should be under 4 hours. 

Also having people ready to tee off is my main issue as time and time again people with the honour are still faffing around sorting the score from the previous hole or going in the bag to find something, I just say whoever is ready get on with it. 

I also would say time taken would be down to the degree of difficulty of the course as well.


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf
		
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At your place? At Kingsbarnes (where 4:40 is the standard)? Or do you simply mean that's really the entire day gone rather than just the morning/afternoon?

I've played on courses where it's impossible, without rushing, for a 4-ball to get round in less than 4:15. And others where anything more than 3:15 is considered 'a bit slow'! And the pace of play is pretty much the same - including readiness.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			what if you go through your routine off to the side of someone when you are not in their eye line, which would be rare if they are before you, but you still have to wait for them to take your shot. The whole point of the PSR is to prepare yourself to hit a shot. You can't do it and then stand over the ball for any length of time or it is pointless. Couple of practice swings visualising the shot, find your target, line up correctly and address the ball. Maybe a waggle or two and a shuffle of the feet then go. Takes maybe *30 seconds to a minute*at the most. 

As dufferman said, what if your playing partner asks if you saw it? No sorry I was going through my own routine ready to play my own shot. Not good etiquette for me. I agree pre shot routines can take too long, players taking an age, and not doing the stuff I mentioned above (wind, club etc.) before there shot. But I don't think a regular PSR is responsible for slow play in fact hitting the ball better, more often should speed things up not slow it down overall.
		
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You need to look at your pre-shot routine, it shouldn't take that long.


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You need to look at your pre-shot routine, it shouldn't take that long.
		
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Agreed. The explosion in popularity of convoluted Pre Shot Routines is strangling the amateur game.


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## hamshanker (Feb 17, 2014)

Personnely i dont think its just down to slow play youve gotta factor in course length and distances between tees too.

Our course id say average 4ball is probably 4 1/4 - 4 1/2 hrs and thats with clear course ahead of you.
Playing off yellows ours is just over 6600 yrds and whites 6900 yrds and there is abit of distance between maybe 3-4 tees too so it all adds up but i dont have a problem if i get around 1 course in 3 1/2 hrs or another in 4 1/2 hrs as long as things generally keep moving and ive enjoyed the company and round..


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			At your place? At Kingsbarnes (where 4:40 is the standard)? Or do you simply mean that's really the entire day gone rather than just the morning/afternoon?

I've played on courses where it's impossible, without rushing, for a 4-ball to get round in less than 4:15. And others where anything more than 3:15 is considered 'a bit slow'! And the pace of play is pretty much the same - including readiness.
		
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OK, there may be some courses where it could be longer or shorter but at most courses that we amateurs play, it shouldn't take longer than 4 hours.

The key thing for me isn't really the time, it wouldn't actually bother me if it took 4 1\2 hours, as long as it wasn't because we were waiting on every tee or because people were faffing about.


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 17, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed. The explosion in popularity of convoluted Pre Shot Routines is strangling the amateur game.
		
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Yup, even the PGA Tour has a limit of 40 seconds to hit the shot from the point of starting a pre shot routine and that's considered the very limit.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2014)

ban watches and phones on the course and clubhouse.  no one will have a clue about the notion of time and therefore cant complain until they get home! 


I wouldn't even mind if they extended a round of golf to 24 holes as long as I am not waiting on every shot! a slight break in play while waiting for a green to clear doesn't  bother me.  it gives me a little time to process how the round is going, what I want to do with the next shot or more importantly go into my bag for some haribos!


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

Our round yesterday took 4 1/2 hours we never held anyone up.
The group behind let the group behind through.
Loved every minute,great company,some good golf,lovely weather,why rush.
I would say though 2o minutes of that was looking for balls,on a tough long course
that mostly going to happen.
My own course 4500 yards takes between 2 3/4 and 3 1/2


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## Slab (Feb 17, 2014)

RE pre shot

I saw a piece online that said a consistent swing (& therefore a consistent pre shot routine) was crucial to a good pace of play

It went on to highlight the difference in the average time a pro's took for each shot and compared that to amateurs (seems that am's took less time on each subsequent shot while playing a hole after the tee shot (tap ins not counted) meaning when we should take more time i.e due to consistent pre shot routine, we actually speed up round the greens and end up taking more shots!


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2014)

Why are people who detest slow play, hate waiting to hit shots whilst others faff about and want to play game at a "proper" pace always accused of wanting to rush and race around ?

Played in a 4 ball yesterday and we were nearly 4 1/2 hours, was painful in places as the other pair were never ready to hit, always wanted the others confirmation of what club to hit or a read on a putt, one of the guys often backed off and started the whole rigmarole again (the highest hcap in the group was 7 so standard was decent enough)

So many amateurs these days have routines and processes that have to be more harmful than helpful, and cumulatively the game is getting slower and slower it seems. Personally I need 5 secs to laser the pin, pull a club, quick look and hit it, go find it and repeat but apparently thats me "rushing"


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

Slab said:



			RE pre shot

I saw a piece online that said a consistent swing (& therefore a consistent pre shot routine) was crucial to a good pace of play

It went on to highlight the difference in the average time a pro's took for each shot and compared that to amateurs (seems that am's took less time on each subsequent shot while playing a hole after the tee shot (tap ins not counted) meaning when we should take more time i.e due to consistent pre shot routine, we actually speed up round the greens and end up taking more shots!
		
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Its clap trap like that which is encouraging amateurs to take all day to visualize a shot etc when there is just no need imo. Im all for routine but it shouldn't take long at all.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Why are people who detest slow play, hate waiting to hit shots whilst others faff about and want to play game at a "proper" pace always accused of wanting to rush and race around ?

Played in a 4 ball yesterday and we were nearly 4 1/2 hours, was painful in places as the other pair were never ready to hit, always wanted the others confirmation of what club to hit or a read on a putt, one of the guys often backed off and started the whole rigmarole again (the highest hcap in the group was 7 so standard was decent enough)

So many amateurs these days have routines and processes that have to be more harmful than helpful, and cumulatively the game is getting slower and slower it seems. Personally I need 5 secs to laser the pin, pull a club, quick look and hit it, go find it and repeat but apparently thats me "rushing"
		
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:thup:

The thing that I find odd is that the people with the most convoluted routines are the ones that I seem to spend most time helping find their ball in the rough


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

Slab said:



			RE pre shot

I saw a piece online that said a consistent swing (& therefore a consistent pre shot routine) was crucial to a good pace of play

It went on to highlight the difference in the average time a pro's took for each shot and compared that to amateurs (seems that am's took less time on each subsequent shot while playing a hole after the tee shot (tap ins not counted) meaning when we should take more time i.e due to consistent pre shot routine, we actually speed up round the greens and end up taking more shots!
		
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The truth is, the pro's wouldn't hit any worse shots if they sped up, and amateurs won't hit any better shots if they slow down.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Why are people who detest slow play, hate waiting to hit shots whilst others faff about and want to play game at a "proper" pace always accused of wanting to rush and race around ?

Played in a 4 ball yesterday and we were nearly 4 1/2 hours, was painful in places as the other pair were never ready to hit, always wanted the others confirmation of what club to hit or a read on a putt, one of the guys often backed off and started the whole rigmarole again (the highest hcap in the group was 7 so standard was decent enough)

So many amateurs these days have routines and processes that have to be more harmful than helpful, and cumulatively the game is getting slower and slower it seems. Personally I need 5 secs to laser the pin, pull a club, quick look and hit it, go find it and repeat but apparently thats me "rushing"
		
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To be honest that for me is too quick.
Pros who have been playing for years take ages to play shots,taking in all scenarios.
Why should someone with a lot less ability hurry to take a shot,with more chance to mess up.


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest that for me is too quick.
Pros who have been playing for years take ages to play shots,taking in all scenarios.
Why should someone with a lot less ability hurry to take a shot,with more chance to mess up.
		
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there is the happy middle ground though.. One of the saddest things in golf has to be the person who is trying their best to improve and who has been told that a settled pre shot routine is essential.. This PSR just gets longer and longer as they're not improving.. Eventually this person takes so long to play their shot that no one wants to play with them... Walk up, 10 seconds to assess the shot, pull out the club and hit the ball.. Maybe throw in a practice swing... 30 seconds max from reaching the ball..


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			At your place? At Kingsbarnes (where 4:40 is the standard)? Or do you simply mean that's really the entire day gone rather than just the morning/afternoon?

I've played on courses where it's impossible, without rushing, for a 4-ball to get round in less than 4:15. And others where anything more than 3:15 is considered 'a bit slow'! And the pace of play is pretty much the same - including readiness.
		
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Agreed, it all depends on the course. On my course, just over 6000 yards we can play a 4 ball in just over 3 hours without hurrying. On some other local courses we couldn't do it in less than 4 hours.


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## Simbo (Feb 17, 2014)

People aren't robots!
 No 2 people will do things the same so saying your PSR should take 25 seconds is rediculous, get 4 people to walk the course, not even playing and il bet there are a good bit time difference in the length of time it takes then factor in the guy that takes the longest to walk it, maybe he plays of 20 and looks for a lot of balls in the rough, maybe the quickest guy plays off 2. Hence the "slow" tag the other guy gets, starts to get stressed, tries to rush, makes a hash of more shots trying to please the faster player. Eventually golf becomes more like going to the dentist than a fun hobby, so he stops playing comps because they aren't worth the hassle, or packs in altogether. But they both pay the same green fees!!
Does anybody really think a half an hour difference is the reason golf memberships are dropping???? Yet almost everyone always has time for a pint after they play!


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2014)

Simbo said:



			People aren't robots!
 No 2 people will do things the same so saying your PSR should take 25 seconds is rediculous, get 4 people to walk the course, not even playing and il bet there are a good bit time difference in the length of time it takes then factor in the guy that takes the longest to walk it, maybe he plays of 20 and looks for a lot of balls in the rough, maybe the quickest guy plays off 2. Hence the "slow" tag the other guy gets, starts to get stressed, tries to rush, makes a hash of more shots trying to please the faster player. Eventually golf becomes more like going to the dentist than a fun hobby, so he stops playing comps because they aren't worth the hassle, or packs in altogether. But they both pay the same green fees!!
Does anybody really think a half an hour difference is the reason golf memberships are dropping???? Yet almost everyone always has time for a pint after they play!
		
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Its not about whether its 3 hours or 5 hours for me, its how quickly my enjoyment diminishes if I have to stand about waiting on each tee then again to hit my approach shots, especially in current weather conditions!


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Its not about whether its 3 hours or 5 hours for me, its how quickly my enjoyment diminishes if I have to stand about waiting on each tee then again to hit my approach shots, especially in current weather conditions!
		
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As you're just about as injury prone as me then you'll understand that if we stand too long on the tee in the cold and rain, then our dodgy joints start to seize up...


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			As you're just about as injury prone as me then you'll understand that if we stand too long on the tee in the cold and rain, then our dodgy joints start to seize up...

Click to expand...

yeah I wasnt gonna go there.....


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Its not about whether its 3 hours or 5 hours for me, its how quickly my enjoyment diminishes if I have to stand about waiting on each tee then again to hit my approach shots, especially in current weather conditions!
		
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Agree with this. Its not the time im bothered about, its the feeling of wanting to stick knives in my eyes because play is moving so slowly and theres no momentum to the round.

Waiting on every shot is no way to play golf and if it was happening a lot I would seriously consider if I can be bothered anymore.


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not a dream or a sprint, it just shouldn't need to take longer than 4 hours to play a round if golf
		
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You say it shouldn't take more than 4 hours, yet here we are saying that, on average, most games DO take more than 4 hours.

If the average game takes 4 1/2 hours, then why should people be told to speed up? Why can't other people be told to suck it up and play to the AVERAGE pace?

My car can (just about) do 100 miles per hour... doesn't mean I HAVE to go 100 miles per hour on every road I drive on!


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## GB72 (Feb 17, 2014)

I think pretty much every round that I play on what is a reasonably full but not jammed course at the weekend is almost bang on 4 hours. That is irrespective of group size. The reason that all group sizes take about 4 hours is because the weekend is predominantly people playing in 4 balls. I know that is going to be the case and I know that, to me anyway, it is unfair to pitch up as a 2 ball on a day when you know that the course is going to be busy with 4 balls and expect to play through. I simply accept the position that as a 2 ball I am in a minority and if I cannot pair up with another 2 ball then I am happy to play at 4 ball pace. On that basis, every round takes about 4 hours and I am happy with that. I am not rushing round nor am I hanging around. That suits me fine and I know that if I tee off at 9 I will be off by 1. 

I think that our course just has a natural speed and tempo and that it is better just to fit in with it rather than rush.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

dufferman said:



			You say it shouldn't take more than 4 hours, yet here we are saying that, on average, most games DO take more than 4 hours.

If the average game takes 4 1/2 hours, then why should people be told to speed up? Why can't other people be told to suck it up and play to the AVERAGE pace?

My car can (just about) do 100 miles per hour... doesn't mean I HAVE to go 100 miles per hour on every road I drive on! 

Click to expand...

Rather than accept the average, I'd question why it was taking so long? Why should I and others have to "suck it up" while people faff about with convoluted PSRs before slicing yet another ball into the rough? The only reason the average round time has increased is because of the people playing it. Unless something is done, it will only get worse.


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## MendieGK (Feb 17, 2014)

The two key things for me that speed up play (and i am a huge fan of a quick round of golf) are ...

A) be ready to hit your shot. Dont stand there marking your card with the previous holes scores, if its your honour on the tee. A way that we counteract this in our group, its to forget about the honour. If your ready, go. 

Often, when i play with stangers, i have hit my shot (yes, i do have a full pre-shot routine), put the club back in the bag and marked my card with them still not ready to go. It baffles me. 

B) WATCH WHERE YOUR BLOODY GOLF BALL GOES!!!! 

This is something, the begginers and high handicapper (IMO) are guilty of. too often they have no idea where there ball has gone. Pick an object in the distance, and walk towards it!


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## GB72 (Feb 17, 2014)

MendieGK said:



			The two key things for me that speed up play (and i am a huge fan of a quick round of golf) are ...

A) be ready to hit your shot. Dont stand there marking your card with the previous holes scores, if its your honour on the tee. A way that we counteract this in our group, its to forget about the honour. If your ready, go. 

Often, when i play with stangers, i have hit my shot (yes, i do have a full pre-shot routine), put the club back in the bag and marked my card with them still not ready to go. It baffles me. 

B) WATCH WHERE YOUR BLOODY GOLF BALL GOES!!!! 

This is something, the begginers and high handicapper (IMO) are guilty of. too often they have no idea where there ball has gone. Pick an object in the distance, and walk towards it!
		
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And my pet peeve: Watch where other people's balls are going. 4 sets of eyes are better than one and there is far more chance of finding a ball and finding it quickly.


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rather than accept the average, I'd question why it was taking so long? Why should I and others have to "suck it up" while people faff about with convoluted PSRs before slicing yet another ball into the rough? The only reason the average round time has increased is because of the people playing it. Unless something is done, it will only get worse.
		
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You've answered your own question there - because you're playing a course with however many 100's of other people! Unless you can find a course which only allows quick paced low handicap golfers then you've got to just go with the flow of the course! Yes, if there is a 4-ball with 3 holes clear ahead of them, they should be playing you through. But as is so often the case, certainly on a weekend, courses are jammed full of 4 balls with the average handicap of 20-something, so for you to demand these people play to your idea of a 'good pace' is just unrealistic. 

Don't get me wrong, If I could get round in 3 1/2 hours (and I have done in a 2 ball once or twice before) every week, great! But it won't happen, and you can't change the way (almost) every course works. 

I often play with a 78 year old who can drive the ball barely 150 yards. Yes, when he is in our 4 ball, the round can get slow, and we do let people play through. But to get him to 'change his ways', stop having bad shots & double the distance he hits the ball will never happen.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If the average round is 4 hours, 4 1/4 hours, 4 1/2 hours, so what? It's the average pace of play, so just go with it!!


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rather than accept the average, I'd question why it was taking so long? Why should I and others have to "suck it up" while people faff about with convoluted PSRs before slicing yet another ball into the rough? The only reason the average round time has increased is because of the people playing it. Unless something is done, it will only get worse.
		
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Seriously mate does it really wind you up that much that 15 mins to half an hour
is going to make that much of a difference to your round and your day.
Golf is a game of enjoyment.
There are lots of things that make golf slower than a PSR.
Are you really that good that you never go in the rough,is your playing partner that 
good he never slices it into the rough.
Come on mate seriously.
I would say if it bugs you that much that your day is ruined give yourself time for 9 holes only.


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:





Click to expand...

You're so rude.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:





Seriously mate does it really wind you up that much that 15 mins to half an hour
is going to make that much of a difference to your round and your day.
Golf is a game of enjoyment.
There are lots of things that make golf slower than a PSR.
Are you really that good that you never go in the rough,is your playing partner that 
good he never slices it into the rough.
Come on mate seriously.
I would say if it bugs you that much that your day is ruined give yourself time for 9 holes only.
		
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It does if it means waiting on every shot. If the round takes 5 hours I don't care, as long as it's not because I'm being held up every hole. The truth is, rounds are getting slower because people make them slower by taking too much time doing things they don't need to do. Unfortunately it seems too many people are accepting of that.

Of course I go in the rough, but I don't have a pointless PSR before doing so and I'm conscious of my position on the course when looking for it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:





Seriously mate does it really wind you up that much that 15 mins to half an hour
is going to make that much of a difference to your round and your day.
Golf is a game of enjoyment.
Come on mate seriously.
I would say if it bugs you that much that your day is ruined give yourself time for 9 holes only.
		
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So if 15 mins to half an hour doesn't matter, why don't you speed up by that much? Its less than 2 mins per hole - knock 10secs off your PSR.

Personally, I think that if every group looked at where they are in relation to the group in front. I've played 4.5hr rounds and its not felt slow, or that it was holding people up. Equally, on an easier/shorter course, 4hrs can feel slow.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

dufferman said:



			You've answered your own question there - because you're playing a course with however many 100's of other people! Unless you can find a course which only allows quick paced low handicap golfers then you've got to just go with the flow of the course! Yes, if there is a 4-ball with 3 holes clear ahead of them, they should be playing you through. But as is so often the case, certainly on a weekend, courses are jammed full of 4 balls with the average handicap of 20-something, so for you to demand these people play to your idea of a 'good pace' is just unrealistic. 

Don't get me wrong, If I could get round in 3 1/2 hours (and I have done in a 2 ball once or twice before) every week, great! But it won't happen, and you can't change the way (almost) every course works. 

I often play with a 78 year old who can drive the ball barely 150 yards. Yes, when he is in our 4 ball, the round can get slow, and we do let people play through. But to get him to 'change his ways', stop having bad shots & double the distance he hits the ball will never happen.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If the average round is 4 hours, 4 1/4 hours, 4 1/2 hours, so what? It's the average pace of play, so just go with it!!
		
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It's not how long it takes, it's how long I have to stand around waiting that's the problem. Very rarely does a round take 4 1\2 to 5 hours unless someone ahead is being unnecessarily slow. One group faffing and losing time on the group in front backs up the course for everyone else. But I'll just suck it up from now on, after all, as long as they are OK, don't worry about everyone else behind them.


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## Simbo (Feb 17, 2014)

MendieGK said:



			The two key things for me that speed up play (and i am a huge fan of a quick round of golf) are ...

A) be ready to hit your shot. Dont stand there marking your card with the previous holes scores, if its your honour on the tee. A way that we counteract this in our group, its to forget about the honour. If your ready, go. 

Often, when i play with stangers, i have hit my shot (yes, i do have a full pre-shot routine), put the club back in the bag and marked my card with them still not ready to go. It baffles me. 

B) WATCH WHERE YOUR BLOODY GOLF BALL GOES!!!! 

This is something, the begginers and high handicapper (IMO) are guilty of. too often they have no idea where there ball has gone. Pick an object in the distance, and walk towards it!
		
Click to expand...


Point A- is rude and ignorant and goes against the etiquette of golf IMO. Maybe fine when your playing with your usual fourball of crash bash moaners. Nothing worse than trying to play a shot into the green when some muppet is up 50 yards infront of you having practice swings and what not because it's a disaster if he isn't walking up the backside of the group in front.

Point B - yep I agree with to a certain extent.  

Saying a round should take x amount of time is like saying ALL cars should lap silverstone in 3 minutes!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

Can any modern player give a sensible answer as to why 3 hours was considered a slow round in 1964 and 4 hours is considered a fast round in 2014.


[Remember there were far fewer courses in 1965 so they would probably have been busier than 2014.]


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2014)

Some serious head in the sand views on this thread so no wonder golf is getting slower.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It does if it means waiting on every shot. If the round takes 5 hours I don't care, as long as it's not because I'm being held up every hole. The truth is, rounds are getting slower because people make them slower by taking too much time doing things they don't need to do. Unfortunately it seems too many people are accepting of that.

Of course I go in the rough, but I don't have a pointless PSR before doing so and I'm conscious of my position on the course when looking for it.
		
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I would argue that if your waiting on every shot the whole course is doing the same.
I agree that waiting on every shot is demoralising but imo its not the PSR.
My routine is not rushed or slow,however if it was either I wouldn't be giving the shot its full attention.


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## MendieGK (Feb 17, 2014)

Simbo said:



			Point A- is rude and ignorant and goes against the etiquette of golf IMO. Maybe fine when your playing with your usual fourball of crash bash moaners. Nothing worse than trying to play a shot into the green when some muppet is up 50 yards infront of you having practice swings and what not because it's a disaster if he isn't walking up the backside of the group in front.

Point B - yep I agree with to a certain extent. 

Saying a round should take x amount of time is like saying ALL cars should lap silverstone in 3 minutes!
		
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I quite clearly state in my post 'on the tee'. I also say ' in my group...' I didnt say that has to be the accepted way. So saying its rude and ignorant is a little unfair to me. I wouldnt never walk in front of people and hit my shot before they have hit theres, but i will walk to me ball if its not on their eyeline and prepare to hit my shot. 

a round of golf should not take more than 4hrs in my opinion (Call me rude and arrogant if you like). People that think its acceptable are quite likely to be the same ones that think buggies speed up golf.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			I would argue that if your waiting on every shot the whole course is doing the same.
I agree that waiting on every shot is demoralising but imo its not the PSR.
My routine is not rushed or slow,however if it was either I wouldn't be giving the shot its full attention.
		
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PSR was just an example, there are many unnecessary ways to faff. A PSR admittedly need not be an issue, some however are.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			So if 15 mins to half an hour doesn't matter, why don't you speed up by that much? Its less than 2 mins per hole - knock 10secs off your PSR.

Personally, I think that if every group looked at where they are in relation to the group in front. I've played 4.5hr rounds and its not felt slow, or that it was holding people up. Equally, on an easier/shorter course, 4hrs can feel slow.
		
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30 mins doesn't make any difference to me as I give myself plenty of time to play,
and im in no rush.
Have you ever been driving to get somewhere quick because your late,but the journey
always seems slower because your in a hurry.
You can only go as fast as the course is going when its chocca.
10 seconds off a PSR is not 2 minutes per hole,unless your taking 12 shots per hole.
And if that's the case get some lessons


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## Robobum (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm a real NIMBY when it comes to slow play - I have rarely been victim or subject of it. 

But purely on numbers......

Is 30 secs (average) plenty of time to hit each shot - probably.

72 shots x 3 golfers = 108mins

Extra "faff" time of 30secs per hole for the group = 9mins

Walking time per hole @ 3mph (350yds p/h) = 4mins per hole = 72mins

So, for 3 scratch golfers, we are already over 3hrs without hitting a bad shot or having an "issue" along the way or having much of a walk green to next tee.

Bit of guesswork involved in those figures - I'll wait for some pedantic arse to start picking them apart.

If I was so tight on time that an extra 30mins on the course made any difference - I don't think I should be out there in the first place, or the golf holds such little significance that walking off after x amount of holes holds no consequence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

50 players contested the final day of the 1965 Open Championship.

Final day was a Friday and they all played 36 holes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I'm a real NIMBY when it comes to slow play - I have rarely been victim or subject of it. 

But purely on numbers......

Is 30 secs (average) plenty of time to hit each shot - probably.

72 shots x 3 golfers = 108mins

Extra "faff" time of 30secs per hole for the group = 9mins

Walking time per hole @ 3mph (350yds p/h) = 4mins per hole = 72mins

So, for 3 scratch golfers, we are already over 3hrs without hitting a bad shot or having an "issue" along the way or having much of a walk green to next tee.

Bit of guesswork involved in those figures - I'll wait for some pedantic arse to start picking them apart.

If I was so tight on time that an extra 30mins on the course made any difference - I don't think I should be out there in the first place, or the golf holds such little significance that walking off after x amount of holes holds no consequence.
		
Click to expand...

Also walking pace is close to one mph.


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## davidy233 (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Also walking pace is close to one mph.
		
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Actually average walking pace (not rushing) is just over 3mph - what you are describing is faffing around chatting to your FC pace as is common on golf courses


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not how long it takes, it's how long I have to stand around waiting that's the problem. Very rarely does a round take 4 1\2 to 5 hours unless someone ahead is being unnecessarily slow. One group faffing and losing time on the group in front backs up the course for everyone else. But I'll just suck it up from now on, after all, as long as they are OK, don't worry about everyone else behind them.
		
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I think you've misread my post - I clearly said if one group is holding everyone up, then they should be playing people through. Not ignoring the backlog. But if you're waiting on the tee, and there's a group teeing off, one more up ahead waiting to take their approach to the green, one more group putting, one waiting on the next tee etc etc, what can you do? Tell them to bugger off because you want to play at a pace that suits you?


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## MendieGK (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Also walking pace is close to one mph.
		
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yeah to be fair i think i could crawl over 1mile in an hour


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I'm a real NIMBY when it comes to slow play - I have rarely been victim or subject of it. 

But purely on numbers......

Is 30 secs (average) plenty of time to hit each shot - probably.

72 shots x 3 golfers = 108mins

Extra "faff" time of 30secs per hole for the group = 9mins

Walking time per hole @ 3mph (350yds p/h) = 4mins per hole = 72mins

So, for 3 scratch golfers, we are already over 3hrs without hitting a bad shot or having an "issue" along the way or having much of a walk green to next tee.

Bit of guesswork involved in those figures - I'll wait for some pedantic arse to start picking them apart.

If I was so tight on time that an extra 30mins on the course made any difference - I don't think I should be out there in the first place, or the golf holds such little significance that walking off after x amount of holes holds no consequence.
		
Click to expand...

Thank god some else in the real world.


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Thank god some else in the real world.
		
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:thup:


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## delc (Feb 17, 2014)

In my opinion, 4 hours is the absolute maximum a round of golf should take.  Beyond that it becomes more of an endurance test. One of the problems I see is hackers treating every putt as though it's "this one to win the Open Championship"!  They look at it from every angle and then still miss. Just missing putts more quickly would speed up rounds quite a lot!  A lot of this comes from club golfers copying the antics of the tour pros on TV as they grind round 5 hour rounds, so speeding them up would also help.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2014)

delc said:



			In my opinion, 4 hours is the absolute maximum a round of golf should take.  Beyond that it becomes more of an endurance test. One of the problems I see is hackers treating every putt as though it's "this one to win the Open Championship"!  They look at it from every angle and then still miss. Just missing putts more quickly would speed up rounds quite a lot!  A lot of this comes from club golfers copying the antics of the tour pros on TV as they grind round 5 hour rounds, so speeding them up would also help.
		
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Don't agree.
Most comps are won by 1 shot or countback.
Taking time over a short putt can make a difference.
If 4 hours is your maximum what happens if it goes over that.
It means either you deal with it well and don't let it effect your game.
Or you let it effect you,you mess up and then blame someone else.
IMO someone who blames someone else for there crap game,is imo a big baby.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Also walking pace is close to one mph.
		
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I walk 2 miles with the dogs in 40 minutes. Walking at 1mph is called dawdling


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2014)

delc said:



			In my opinion, 4 hours is the absolute maximum a round of golf should take.  Beyond that it becomes more of an endurance test. One of the problems I see is hackers treating every putt as though it's "this one to win the Open Championship"!  They look at it from every angle and then still miss. Just missing putts more quickly would speed up rounds quite a lot!  A lot of this comes from club golfers copying the antics of the tour pros on TV as they grind round 5 hour rounds, so speeding them up would also help.
		
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They don't just miss though. Often they leave it 6 feet short. They could have achieved the same, one handed, with their eyes closed. Until someone is a good enough putter to be expecting to hole 30 ft putts, there's no need to look at it from 15 different angles. Judging pace is going to be more important in terms of lagging it.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

I think this thread might spawn the millionth post :thup:


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## john0 (Feb 17, 2014)

pokerjoke said:





Seriously mate does it really wind you up that much that 15 mins to half an hour
is going to make that much of a difference to your round and your day.
Golf is a game of enjoyment.
There are lots of things that make golf slower than a PSR.
Are you really that good that you never go in the rough,*is your playing partner that 
good he never slices it into the rough.*
Come on mate seriously.
I would say if it bugs you that much that your day is ruined give yourself time for 9 holes only.
		
Click to expand...

You do know who Hawkeye's regular playing partner is dont you?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 17, 2014)

john0 said:



			You do know who Hawkeye's regular playing partner is dont you? 

Click to expand...

Homer Hooks it into the rough


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2014)

4hrs 15 mins is really a bit too long for a fourball.  Should be more like 3hrs 45mins.  Fourballs should not be playing strokeplay and in other forms of golf players should really pick up when out of it.  Accepting our own or our own group's slow play on the basis that 'we always let groups through' is not really good enough IMO - because by definition we will have held up the group behind; will have taken time to realise it; and it takes time to let the following group play through.

Note also the wave effect.  The fact that we note that we hold up the group behind and they play through - the group behind them is also likely to have been held up and so on back through the course.  And as for any traffic flow - anything holding things up will continue to do so long after removal of the original obstruction or whatever caused the delay/slowdown.


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## john0 (Feb 17, 2014)

To be honest if people didn't spend so much time shuffling about on the tee box to stand in the HNSP when in a group of mixed right and left handers then it would knock a good half hour off the time it takes to complete a round


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## dufferman (Feb 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			4hrs 15 mins is really a bit too long for a fourball.  Should be more like 3hrs 45mins.  Fourballs should not be playing strokeplay and in other forms of golf players should really pick up when out of it.  Accepting our own or our own group's slow play on the basis that 'we always let groups through' is not really good enough IMO - because by definition we will have held up the group behind; will have taken time to realise it; and it takes time to let the following group play through.

Note also the wave effect.  The fact that we note that we hold up the group behind and they play through - the group behind them is also likely to have been held up and so on back through the course.  And as for any traffic flow - anything holding things up will continue to do so long after removal of the original obstruction or whatever caused the delay/slowdown.
		
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Surely though, if the average time is 4 1/4 hours for a fourball, why is there a need for it to be faster? If there is no 1 group to blame, why does it need to be faster?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

MendieGK said:



			yeah to be fair i think i could crawl over 1mile in an hour
		
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Sorry...1 mph is the pace for four golfers to walk around an average golf course in 4.25 hours.

Re earlier thread walking paces
OAP 3mph
Adult 4 mph 
Fit adult 5mph

Average golf course [6000 yards] + tee to greens is about 4.5 miles.

Assuming all golfers are 'fit'.

PS Recent surveys report that slow play is one of the main reasons golfers give up membership of golf clubs.
Don't ask me to quote them but I have actually seen them [honest]!!


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## 3565 (Feb 17, 2014)

I start on the 1st tee, finish on the 18th green, and what ever the time it's taken to play, is the time it's taken. I thought golf was to go round in lowest amount of shots possible? Not a sprint!!! You can only do what's in your control to prepare yourself, but what others do.......
i had the privilege to play with a member at Royal Birkdale, first time playing it and was eager and looking forward to saviour every minute of it. The member saw an older gentleman called Roger, and conversation went like this....

hello Roger? 

Ahh Paul, how are you? 

Ok Roger, how did you get on today?

Bloody marvellous, we went round in 2hrs 40min............

After picking myself up off the floor from laughing, I asked was he being serious, to which I got a swift Yes. 
How he played or what score he shot.......... No idea, but he went round ROYAL BIRKDALE in 2hrs 40min......... I ask ya!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

john0 said:



			To be honest if people didn't spend so much time shuffling about on the tee box to stand in the HNSP when in a group of mixed right and left handers then it would knock a good half hour off the time it takes to complete a round 

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In the days when HNSP was practiced as good etiquette, play was at least an hour a round quicker.
You seem to have shot yourself in the foot there!


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the days when HNSP was practiced as good etiquette, play was at least an hour a round quicker.
You seem to have shot yourself in the foot there!
		
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Don't start that off again.. I've only just recovered the will to live...


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## delc (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry...1 mph is the pace for four golfers to walk around an average golf course in 4.25 hours.

Re earlier thread walking paces
OAP 3mph
Adult 4 mph 
Fit adult 5mph

Average golf course [6000 yards] + tee to greens is about 4.5 miles.

Assuming all golfers are 'fit'.

PS Recent surveys report that slow play is one of the main reasons golfers give up membership of golf clubs.
Don't ask me to quote them but I have actually seen them [honest]!!
		
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I totally agree with the last point.  I personally know several people with children and busy lives who have given up playing golf because it takes up too much time.  Many the answer is to reduce the number of holes in a standard round, or just to speed up play by whatever means possible?  :mmm:


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

delc said:



			I totally agree with the last point.  I personally know several people with children and busy lives who have given up playing golf because it takes up too much time.  Many the answer is too reduce the number of holes in a standard round, or just to speed up play by whatever means possibly?
		
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I've made this point before, but it's worth writing again.. I have a limited amount of time to play. I can't get to the course before 11 (usually), and I have to be away by 3 to pick up the kids from school. If the round takes over 4 hours then I have to leave after only 15 or so holes.. If that happened too many times I'd seriously consider whether it was worth it.. Fortunately the issue hasn't arisen yet, but when summer arrives (if ever) I would probably have a problem.. 

I would love it if the average round was 3.5 hours, but if I was forced to accept 4.5 hours as an average then golf would probably have to take a backseat to other, less time consuming pursuits...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

3565 said:



			I start on the 1st tee, finish on the 18th green, and what ever the time it's taken to play, is the time it's taken. I thought golf was to go round in lowest amount of shots possible? Not a sprint!!! You can only do what's in your control to prepare yourself, but what others do.......
i had the privilege to play with a member at Royal Birkdale, first time playing it and was eager and looking forward to saviour every minute of it. The member saw an older gentleman called Roger, and conversation went like this....
Hello Roger? 

Ahh Paul, how are you? 

Ok Roger, how did you get on today?

Bloody marvellous, we went round in 2hrs 40min............

After picking myself up off the floor from laughing, I asked was he being serious, to which I got a swift Yes. 
How he played or what score he shot.......... No idea, but he went round ROYAL BIRKDALE in 2hrs 40min......... I ask ya!!!
		
Click to expand...

That was extremely rude of you to fall to the ground and laugh at him. I hope that you did not cause any discomfort to the member who had kindly invited you onto his course.
The member concerned had obviously enjoyed a round of golf at a sensible pace.
Perhaps he suffers the misfortune of being held up by golfers who are not in the habit of being aware of golfers playing at a pace they enjoy.


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## User20205 (Feb 17, 2014)

the time taken is irrelevant, it's the time of the round relative to the rest of the course that's important. 

that said I'd expect to be around ours in less than four hours for a 4 ball. 

I do agree there is a lot of messing around in modern golf, pre shot rountines and leaving your bag in the wrong place  being the main cause IMO


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2014)

It will get worse! I photographed a group of 8 to 13 year old golfers playing in a county final last year. They, almost without exception, had the same laborious pre shot routine - a couple of practice swings, step away, look carefully down the line, set up to ball, two more practice swings then a long pause before the swing started. Can't wait to play behind them!


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## User20205 (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was extremely rude of you to fall to the ground and laugh at him. I hope that you did not cause any discomfort to the member who had kindly invited you onto his course.
The member concerned had obviously enjoyed a round of golf at a sensible pace.
Perhaps he suffers the misfortune of being held up by golfers who are not in the habit of being aware of golfers playing at a pace they enjoy.
		
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there is no way you can get around a championship course at 6500+ in 2hrs 40, to have it a the defining characteristic of your round is silly. 

My course is 6200, my fastest round is 2h45ish  in a 2 ball going off at 7am. We played at a fair lick and I couldn't imagine nor would i want to  play quicker than that


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2014)

therod said:



			there is no way you can get around a championship course at 6500+ in 2hrs 40, to have it a the defining characteristic of your round is silly. 

My course is 6200, my fastest round is 2h45ish  in a 2 ball going off at 7am. We played at a fair lick and I couldn't imagine nor would i want to  play quicker than that
		
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I've done a 6100 yd course in 2 hours 15 mins, but that was playing on my own on a Saturday afternoon when no one else was out.. If you offer me 4 hours per round I'll take it, but that extra half hour is IMO unnecessary.. I'm not asking anyone to rush, just to avoid wasting any unnecessary time.. If you can't make it round in 4 hours (adjust for Championship course if necessary), then please let faster groups through if possible..


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

therod said:



			there is no way you can get around a championship course at 6500+ in 2hrs 40.
		
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So those hundreds of rounds I played in 2, 3 and even 4 balls as a teenager were just a figment of my imagination then.
As a 2 ball two hours 40 would be considered slow.


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## User20205 (Feb 17, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I've done a 6100 yd course in 2 hours 15 mins, but that was playing on my own on a Saturday afternoon when no one else was out.. If you offer me 4 hours per round I'll take it, but that extra half hour is IMO unnecessary.. I'm not asking anyone to rush, just to avoid wasting any unnecessary time.. If you can't make it round in 4 hours (adjust for Championship course if necessary), then please let faster groups through if possible..
		
Click to expand...

completely agree, it depends on the context. On the final round of the club champs time is irrelevant to a degree, teeing off at 12pm in December you wanna get round asap. Anyone who dicks around in the group infront pre shot routining, looking for balls and not waving through is a massive pain.


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## User20205 (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So those hundreds of rounds I played in 2, 3 and even 4 balls as a teenager were just a figment of my imagination then.
As a 2 ball two hours 40 would be considered slow.
		
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I do think age perhaps give the past a rose coloured hue


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can any modern player give a sensible answer as to why 3 hours was considered a slow round in 1964 and 4 hours is considered a fast round in 2014.


[Remember there were far fewer courses in 1965 so they would probably have been busier than 2014.]
		
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No takers then?


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## louise_a (Feb 17, 2014)

If I go out on my own I get round in just over 2 hours, however if I am in a fourball I don't really worry about how long it takes as long as we aren't being held up.


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## Robobum (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No takers then?
		
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Is it because timekeeping was with a sundial?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

therod said:



			I do think age perhaps give the past a rose coloured hue 

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Not at all, I was going to say that sub two hours as a single was the norm but I thought some might find that unbelievable.
It was not uncommon in those times to play 3 rounds in a day.

As I posted earlier the 1965 Open was the last when they played 36 holes on the final day. Top 50 qualifying, would it not be fun to have that today, I could see a few 'athletes' struggling.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Is it because timekeeping was with a sundial?
		
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To remind you, that was when Arnie, Gary, and Jack were in their prime.


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## User20205 (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not at all, I was going to say that sub two hours as a single was the norm but I thought some might find that unbelievable.
It was not uncommon in those times to play 3 rounds in a day.

As I posted earlier the 1965 Open was the last when they played 36 holes on the final day. Top 50 qualifying, would it not be fun to have that today, I could see a few 'athletes' struggling.
		
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I do believe you, with that in mind, maybe you could tell us. 

as mentioned around 2hr45 round a shortish course felt quick to me, not racing, but quick non the less. 

As someone who has witnessed pace of play slow down, why is it ??


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## upsidedown (Feb 17, 2014)

At our place try to play in both 'Fiddles" on a Weds and  Friday and I'm pretty much the youngest at coming up 55, most would be mid to late 60's, 70's and we have a couple of 80 + as well.
We play 4BBB Stableford off the Yellows (6267) and rounds are generally 3.50 hrs and you get untold stick back in the clubhouse should be over 4 hrs !!

Weekend comps are in three balls and around the 3.40 mark.

HiD and myself generally take 3 hrs of an afternoon, and she's a dodgy hip so not the quickest.

One thing I have learnt in my time there is never tee off after a society


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## upsidedown (Feb 17, 2014)

Peter Alliss when asked the other night about slow play opined that a damn good flogging starting off with some birch branches is the answer to the curse of slow play


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## Robobum (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To remind you, that was when Arnie, Gary, and Jack were in their prime.
		
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To be fair, I couldn't give a toss.

My club is not victim of slow play and I have rarely encountered it. If it became an issue, I'd move clubs - or moan about how much better things were way back when


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## 3565 (Feb 17, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was extremely rude of you to fall to the ground and laugh at him. I hope that you did not cause any discomfort to the member who had kindly invited you onto his course.
The member concerned had obviously enjoyed a round of golf at a sensible pace.
Perhaps he suffers the misfortune of being held up by golfers who are not in the habit of being aware of golfers playing at a pace they enjoy.
		
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Not bothered if I was rude or caused discomfort..... The fact he's resorted to flying round an Open Championship venue in the fastest time possible and took pride in that is totally beyond me. But I think there was a hint of sarcasm in your reply......


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2014)

3565 said:



			...
i had the privilege to play with a member at Royal Birkdale, first time playing it and was eager and looking forward to saviour every minute of it. The member saw an older gentleman called Roger, and conversation went like this....

hello Roger? 

Ahh Paul, how are you? 

Ok Roger, how did you get on today?

Bloody marvellous, we went round in 2hrs 40min............

After picking myself up off the floor from laughing, I asked was he being serious, to which I got a swift Yes. 
How he played or what score he shot.......... No idea, but he went round ROYAL BIRKDALE in 2hrs 40min......... I ask ya!!!
		
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Very much the attitude of a number of the old fogeys at Walton Heath too! And at the Weekend when they know the 2-day members are playing and their 3-ball hit and run game is going to encounter 4-balls!


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## Piece (Feb 17, 2014)

The main issue of slow play is that we, the club golfers, don't readily admit that we are slow golfers. It's always the other guy who's slow. Take a snapshot of a club, I bet most will say they are fast, when in reality they aren't. 

On a similar thread months ago: after a slow round of golf at Delamere that took ages, we went around the group of eight and asked at what pace we thought each of us played at, noting down the results. Interestingly, all but two thought they were fast players, indicating the problem lay elsewhere...much 'debate' was had as other group members argued that some fast players were actually slow! The outcome is that you can speed up your play by being honest with your own pace, and if you are fast, you can still help yourselves and others as you work as a team to go around; there's no point in having three Usain Bolts when the fourth is Heather Mills.

Another resolution is better starting times. E.g., off the first, the next group doesn't tee off until the group in front reaches the green, not after just hitting their second.


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## Piece (Feb 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Very much the attitude of a number of the old fogeys at Walton Heath too! And at the Weekend when they know the 2-day members are playing and their 3-ball hit and run game is going to encounter 4-balls!
		
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At Carnoustie years ago, our four ball let through seven, yes seven, two balls. Why were they so quick? Played out of turn, didn't look for their balls in rough, putted with the flag in and gimmies a-plenty. Where was the fun in that? It cheesed us all off TBH, all for sake of playing quickly.


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## davidy233 (Feb 17, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Carnoustie years ago, our four ball let through seven, yes seven, two balls. Why were they so quick? Played out of turn, didn't look for their balls in rough, putted with the flag in and gimmies a-plenty. Where was the fun in that? It cheesed us all off TBH, all for sake of playing quickly.
		
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Take it you were tourists? and they were locals - they'd just be out for a hit and a laugh - golf is cheap up here, we don't have to take it too seriously unless we're playing a match or a medal.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 17, 2014)

Even in our club championship, the highlight of the season, we got round in 4 and a quarter hours. Given it was medal and a big field that is only an extra 15 minutes above what I'd consider the average at my place. To be honest as long as the round flows and not stop starting, I really don't have a care how long it takes. I enjoy being out there in good company and enjoying a game I love.


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## Simbo (Feb 17, 2014)

3565 said:



			I start on the 1st tee, finish on the 18th green, and what ever the time it's taken to play, is the time it's taken. I thought golf was to go round in lowest amount of shots possible? Not a sprint!!! You can only do what's in your control to prepare yourself, but what others do.......
i had the privilege to play with a member at Royal Birkdale, first time playing it and was eager and looking forward to saviour every minute of it. The member saw an older gentleman called Roger, and conversation went like this....

hello Roger? 

Ahh Paul, how are you? 

Ok Roger, how did you get on today?

Bloody marvellous, we went round in 2hrs 40min............

After picking myself up off the floor from laughing, I asked was he being serious, to which I got a swift Yes. 
How he played or what score he shot.......... No idea, but he went round ROYAL BIRKDALE in 2hrs 40min......... I ask ya!!!
		
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I agree, very common conversation in our clubhouse also- rediculous!!

To be fair I think a bounce game should go around quicker than a medal as there's no pressure, if you lose a ball you just chuck another one down where you think you lost it, no going back or anything. Etc.

How far apart are your clubs tee off times for Saturday medals, ours are 6 mins, which absolutely no-one adheres to, as soon as the group in front are just out off hitting range the next group are off!, hence groups nose to backside all the way round, which will cause traffic jams, especially at bottlenecks on the course. 
Suggestion to improve it, have more medals, make the slots 10 mins apart and have less tee times and make everybody tee off at their specified time??? And try to stop the jams. Probably won't go round much quicker but it might stop people waiting about as much. As much as I know a lot of members like their game on a Saturday and probably not a viable suggestion but perhaps ask the retired members if they would like to play their medals on a Thursdays or something to free up some space on a Saturday. I personally think this is a good idea as I know a lot of seniors at our course struggle with the length/difficulty of the course of medal tees, and get fed up being harassed if they lose a ball or something.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2014)

couldn't think of anything worse than a full 18 holes by myself hitting only one ball.  BORED TO TEARS!   


even when its busy ill hit at least two shots into the green. I might forget about putting altogether and chip a few balls until the group behind me gets to their approach shots.  

I just cant play a proper round of golf on my own. there is no edge to it.


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## 3565 (Feb 17, 2014)

A friend of mine who lives in the States says if anyone attacks you about slow play or says you were slow, just respond to them, 
' I play the game of golf, what do you play'?


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

Couple of observations

Clearly _if_ a course is assessed there could easily be a hours difference in the expected 4-ball pace between different courses and I think that goes someway to muddying the replies whenever pace is discussed

I still don't think the R&A 3:50 guideline is current (I'm sure it once was) and so it will also set false expectations 

My game at the weekend had 4:10 as the pace but cant recall if that is longer/shorter than usual (the pro stated the 1st cut rough hadn't been cut as scheduled due to rain, so can only imagine this would add maybe 10 minutes to expected pace as groups search for balls that should be visible)

Maybe radical but I think courses should seek approval or at least justify to members, if they wish to use tee times below an 8 minute spacing with 10 minutes being the default

And I think more could be made of shotgun starts at the beginning of a days competition play (maybe just the front 9)


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 18, 2014)

3565 said:



			A friend of mine who lives in the States says if anyone attacks you about slow play or says you were slow, just respond to them, 
' I play the game of golf, what do you play'?
		
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And thus slow play is accepted as OK. It will only get worse with that attitude.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2014)

courses vary massively. we played Bolton at the weekend. my legs had forgotten the next day feeling after going up and down hills all afternoon.  its a completely different style of course to lee park. even though there are a similar length it takes longer to get around Bolton. 

we certainly didn't get around in under 3 hours or even close to it as a 3 ball.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			couldn't think of anything worse than a full 18 holes by myself hitting only one ball.  BORED TO TEARS!
		
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I don't know, I quite enjoy it, as you don't have to lose 30 minutes of your life you wont get back waiting for other people to do their pre shot routines


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			And thus slow play is accepted as OK. It will only get worse with that attitude.
		
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I could be wrong but we might not have the whole context for this

I understand that by a significant number of social amateur players, many of the rules of golf are waived in the US to help pace & enjoyment of the game, this is frowned upon buy those who play _golf _(i.e by the rules) and those who play a _game a bit like golf_ 

I could be wrong though


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Carnoustie years ago, our four ball let through seven, yes seven, two balls. Why were they so quick? Played out of turn, didn't look for their balls in rough, putted with the flag in and gimmies a-plenty. Where was the fun in that? It cheesed us all off TBH, all for sake of playing quickly.
		
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I got news for you, a two ball tends to play faster than a four ball.

They were probably being polite when you waved them through and hurried to get out of your way.

They were probably playing at a pace that they were used to and enjoy.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			At Carnoustie years ago, our four ball let through seven, yes seven, two balls. Why were they so quick? Played out of turn, didn't look for their balls in rough, putted with the flag in and gimmies a-plenty. Where was the fun in that? It cheesed us all off TBH, all for sake of playing quickly.
		
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Isn't it a bit pompous to claim that they were not having 'fun' as it sounds like they were generally just getting on with it in a friendly game.  Yes they may not have been following centuries of etiquette or following the rules to the letter.  But as slow play is widely accepted to be a major problem for the game, and I am guessing you were not playing in the Open, what's the problem?


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

Our 6400 yard course is about 6 miles to walk round, including tracks between greens and tees. At a reasonable walking pace of 3 miles per hour (even for OAP's), that's 2 hours walking. The rest is playing shots. A three ball all scoring 80 and taking 20 seconds (one-third of a minute) over every shot will add another 80 minutes to the round, so that's 3 hours 20 minutes. A four-ball playing at the same rate will add 107 minutes to the round, so that's still only 3 hours 47 minutes. So the moral is 'don't faff around when playing your shots'!


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

woody69 said:



*Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't understand the obsession with getting round as quickly as possible and 4hrs 15 is perfectly acceptable to me.* If someone wants to go through, I always let them. I don't dawdle and try to always keep up with the group in front, but I don't run either. I enjoy my golf, out on the course in the fresh air and the socialising between shots. At the same time, I've thought about my shot and I'm ready to go when it's my turn. 

It usually takes about 4 hours for me in a 4 ball on "most courses" and I don't think that is "slow". I agree that waiting around on every tee, or for every shot is tiresome, but it so rarely happens.
		
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I'm with you on this one, in fact I'd go a bit further & admit that I'm happy taking 5+ hours for a round as long as we're all having fun and NOT holding up those behind us. I don't play as often as most forummers which is one reason why I'm happy to draw out my round as much as possible. I HATE rushing when I don't have to.



HawkeyeMS said:



			Pre-shot routines are one of the causes of slow play, *and aren't necessary*...

...runs for cover 

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According to who
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.
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of any standing? 


*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

therod said:



			I do believe you, with that in mind, maybe you could tell us. 

as mentioned around 2hr45 round a shortish course felt quick to me, not racing, but quick non the less. 

As someone who has witnessed pace of play slow down, why is it ??
		
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Oh dear where to start.

Competitions..... Once a month in 1964......upwards of 150 a year in 2014
Fitness........Most golfers were fit in 1964.....many golfers unfit in 2014.
Courses.......Shorter in 1964, balanced a bit by better equipment in 2014.
Ability..........Much better average player in 1964,very few golfers were over 18 handicap.
Manners/etiquette/ thought for other players.......much better in 1964
Leisure time...very little in 1964.

Have to go now.


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			Our 6400 yard course is about 6 miles to walk round, including tracks between greens and tees. At a reasonable walking pace of 3 miles per hour (even for OAP's),* that's 2 hours walking. The rest is playing shots.* A three ball all scoring 80 and taking 20 seconds (one-third of a minute) over every shot will add another 80 minutes to the round, so that's 3 hours 20 minutes. A four-ball playing at the same rate will add 107 minutes to the round, so that's still only 3 hours 47 minutes. So the moral is 'don't faff around when playing your shots'!  

Click to expand...

My bold: So that's it there's nothing else that happens in the game of golf but walking and playing shots? (& even that takes all bar 3 minutes of the R&A maximum for a 4-ball! if you can all play near single figure handicap!)


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			It will get worse! I photographed a group of 8 to 13 year old golfers playing in a county final last year. They, almost without exception, had the same laborious pre shot routine - a couple of practice swings, step away, look carefully down the line, set up to ball, two more practice swings then a long pause before the swing started. Can't wait to play behind them!
		
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Impressionable young people are most likely to copy the laborious pre-shot routines of the tour pros, as seen on TV. Some tour pros seem to take at least 2 minutes over every shot. That is why tournament rounds take 5 to 6 hours, even when playing in two balls. Watching a televised tournament, especially on the USPGA Tour, is getting like watching paint dry. Something has to be done about the speed of play in pro tournaments, if golf is to have any future as a game for ordinary mortals!  :mmm:


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

Slab said:



			My bold: So that's it there's nothing else that happens in the game of golf but walking and playing shots? (& even that takes all bar 3 minutes of the R&A maximum for a 4-ball! if you can all play near single figure handicap!)
		
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You can still have a bit of social interaction, telling jokes, etc, while walking between shots, during the occasional wait on the tee, and in the bar afterwards. What is your point?


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			You can still have a bit of social interaction, telling jokes, etc, while walking between shots, during the occasional wait on the tee, and in the bar afterwards. What is your point?
		
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Just 1 lost ball and the resulting 5 minute loom on 6 holes adds 30 minutes to any rounx. Someone losing a ball on every hole and there's 1 1/2 hours extra - ok, not likely but the first scenario is common.


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			You can still have a bit of social interaction, telling jokes, etc, while walking between shots, during the occasional wait on the tee, and in the bar afterwards. What is your point?
		
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Lost balls, wayward shots, 3 off the tee, duffs, fluffs, thins, fats, 3 putts, 4 putts... all scenarios that people playing off of more than single figured handicap have experienced?? Even pros occasionally make bogies, heaven forbid, adding to extra time on a hole. :mmm:


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			You can still have a bit of social interaction, telling jokes, etc, while walking between shots, during the occasional wait on the tee, and in the bar afterwards. What is your point?
		
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My point is golf is not the exclusive domain of single figure players, some of us mortals may on occasion have to re-load or heaven forbid, look for a ball or two, we might even need to take a penalty drop or a few dozen other things that happen in a typical round

And what about the groups in front suffering the same few dozen scenarios and the time impact they have to the groups following? 

None of which I'm afraid are in your 3:47 pace of play


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Just 1 lost ball and the resulting 5 minute loom on 6 holes adds 30 minutes to any rounx. Someone losing a ball on every hole and there's 1 1/2 hours extra - ok, not likely but the first scenario is common.
		
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That is why you should call the following group through when you lose a ball.  Otherwise you hold up everybody following you.


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Lost balls, wayward shots, 3 off the tee, duffs, fluffs, thins, fats, 3 putts, 4 putts... all scenarios that people playing off of more than single figured handicap have experienced?? Even pros occasionally make bogies, *heaven forbid,* adding to extra time on a hole. :mmm:
		
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Two sequential posts with the same phrase 

Heaven forbid there's a third one or the forum post count will reset to zero!!!


Edit to add:
Phew thanks Delc that was close :smirk:


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			That is why you should call the following group through when you lose a ball.  Otherwise you hold up everybody following you. 

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Er...yeah..
But it means your "pace of play" guideline goes out of the window...


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Lost balls, wayward shots, 3 off the tee, duffs, fluffs, thins, fats, 3 putts, 4 putts... all scenarios that people playing off of more than single figured handicap have experienced?? Even pros occasionally make bogies, heaven forbid, adding to extra time on a hole. :mmm:
		
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My 34 handicap wife (unfortunately now deceased) could get round 18 holes in well under 4 hours, and never seemed to hold me up!


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## Piece (Feb 18, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear where to start.

Competitions..... Once a month in 1964......upwards of 150 a year in 2014
Fitness........Most golfers were fit in 1964.....many golfers unfit in 2014.
Courses.......Shorter in 1964, balanced a bit by better equipment in 2014.
Ability..........Much better average player in 1964,very few golfers were over 18 handicap.
Manners/etiquette/ thought for other players.......much better in 1964
Leisure time...very little in 1964.

Have to go now.
		
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Reading between the lines here, golf was far better in 1964? Far less hackers, far less traffic on the golf course, quicker play? It also sounds the earliest recipe for golf snobbery that still exists today?


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## Snelly (Feb 18, 2014)

I agree with Doon Frae Toon's post on this subject.

If rounds of golf took 4-5 hours every time then I would not play the game. I already avoid several annual fixtures that I get invites to purely for the fact that I know I will have to wait before hitting every shot and I just don't enjoy it when it is like that.


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			My 34 handicap wife (unfortunately now deceased) could get round 18 holes in well under 4 hours, and never seemed to hold me up!
		
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Any individual can get round in under 4 on most courses, we've all done it, but its a field of players that dictate that day's pace (or the slowest in that field)


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			Reading between the lines here, golf was far better in 1964? Far less hackers, far less traffic on the golf course, quicker play? It also sounds the earliest recipe for golf snobbery that still exists today?
		
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I started playing golf in 1960 at a nine hole pay and play course. You have to get there at dawn to put a ball in a chute, and when it emerged at the other end it was your turn to tee off.  You had to repeat the exercise to play the second nine, so golf could be quite time consuming even then. Having said that, the actual pace of play once under way was much quicker and manners were much better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the days when HNSP was practiced as good etiquette, play was at least an hour a round quicker.
You seem to have shot yourself in the foot there!
		
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When HNSP was observed players were usually ready to tee off immediately the previous player had finished - so would have been standing at HNSP shot decided and club and ball in hand ready to go.  But that is back in the day when rounds were much shorter Note there is a big difference between speed of play when considering length of time to play the round and speed of play in context of the time a player takes to play a shot.   A 3 hr 2 ball round does not imply that the players rushed their shots.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I would love it if the average round was 3.5 hours, but if I was forced to accept 4.5 hours as an average then golf would probably have to take a backseat to other, less time consuming pursuits...
		
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You said it Sir.  Though many here do not seem bothered that a round takes 4.5 hours - for many of us that is unacceptable and we just can't take that amount of time.  If you want to take all day about it then play later in the day.


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## richart (Feb 18, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			And thus slow play is accepted as OK. It will only get worse with that attitude.
		
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 Spot on. Slow play will drive people away from the game. I want to play a round of golf. If I wanted to stand about I would find a bar to prop up, or failing that be with my family. Golf is becoming an all day sport, and not all of us have the time for that.

4 balls were round in 3.30 hours when I first started playing, now the average is 4.30 hours. Where is it going to stop ? 5 hours, 6 hours. the Pros have a lot to answer for, as they are making it acceptable to go round in 5 hours plus.:rant:


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## Rooter (Feb 18, 2014)

I factor in 5 hrs maximum when i play 18 holes in a 4ball. That includes getting ready and a swift pint after. Not bothered if its quicker or longer, however i like to keep a flow of play. If i have to start waiting on every tee box, thats when the frustration starts, not the overall time.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2014)

sending groups out as the group in front has just cleared means there will be a backup at the first sign of a hold up.

not teeing off until the forward group has reached the green on a typical par 4 1st is a much better gapping.  

we get around lee park right and quick due to it being smaller, no hills and no walks between tees.  my old course back home is pretty hilly, some tees have a bit of a walk between them and is much longer. comparing the speed of rounds on both is like chalk and cheese. 

if you want a quick round, join a shorter course imo.  I allow for at least 4 hours in my head when I go to play golf. I doubt ive ever had a 4 hour round at lee park.  I certainly have back home!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I agree with Doon Frae Toon's post on this subject.

If rounds of golf took 4-5 hours every time then I would not play the game. I already avoid several annual fixtures that I get invites to purely for the fact that I know I will have to wait before hitting every shot and I just don't enjoy it when it is like that.
		
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I do recall that I used to estimate that door-to-door - a round plus drink and social stuff afterwards would take 5 hours or so.  If I left home at midday I'd be back by 5pm.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2014)

This is part of our issue as every group tees off as soon as the other is out of range. With no gap between groups there is always going to be congestion somewhere


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			The main issue of slow play is that we, the club golfers, don't readily admit that we are slow golfers. It's always the other guy who's slow. Take a snapshot of a club, I bet most will say they are fast, when in reality they aren't.
		
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Totally at one with @Piece on this (am I therefore totally @Piece - anyway)

We have to really look at our own speed of play.  When we notice that as a group we seem to be slow - then who of us is playing slowly?  Am I the cause?  And if I am I must speed things up a bit - and if it looks to be others then we must be honest with each other and tell ourselves openly - we are playing too slowly.  

And let's not give ourselves easy cop-outs - waiting a hole or two in the hope that the lot behind suddenly drop away for a shot or two.  Be honest with ourselves and our PPs.  If we drop behind the group in front and lose a hole and those behind are frequently waiting on us - we are holding the course up.  Accept it - deal with it. We speed up or stand aside.  And I think the best way to do that is by telling the group behind as soon as you can that you will play off the next tee then stand aside to let them play straight through.  And if you are still on the tee when they come off the previous green - then you let them play through at that point.


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			sending groups out as the group in front has just cleared means there will be a backup at the first sign of a hold up.

not teeing off until the forward group has reached the green on a typical par 4 1st is a much better gapping.  

we get around lee park right and quick due to it being smaller, no hills and no walks between tees.  my old course back home is pretty hilly, some tees have a bit of a walk between them and is much longer. *comparing the speed of rounds on both is like chalk and cheese*. 

if you want a quick round, join a shorter course imo.  I allow for at least 4 hours in my head when I go to play golf. I doubt ive ever had a 4 hour round at lee park.  I certainly have back home!
		
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My bold: I've heard its easier to three-putt on chalk while cheese stops a ball quicker but more likely to plug


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2014)

lift clean and place all the time with that chalky residue!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

6 miles is 10,560 yards.
Average course 6000 yards.


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

Slab said:



			Two sequential posts with the same phrase 

Heaven forbid there's a third one or the forum post count will reset to zero!!!


Edit to add:
Phew thanks Delc that was close :smirk:
		
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Phew! Now lets try to get multiple 'Goodness gracious' posts...


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			My 34 handicap wife (unfortunately now deceased) could get round 18 holes in well under 4 hours, and never seemed to hold me up!
		
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But that was just the 2 of you playing a presume? Of which you were at a much lower handicap and therefor didn't make as many bad shots? If she were to play with 3 other people of her 34 handicap, do you not think that would have taken more time?


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			6 miles is 10,560 yards.
Average course 6000 yards.
		
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So you walk in a straight line from tee to green and then magically materialise at the next tee......


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			Reading between the lines here, golf was far better in 1964? Far less hackers, far less traffic on the golf course, quicker play? It also sounds the earliest recipe for golf snobbery that still exists today?
		
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Please explain last sentence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

Imurg said:



			So you walk in a straight line from tee to green and then magically materialise at the next tee......
		
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Nope just stating that it must be a hell of a walk between some tees and greens to make up 6 miles [+4560 yards, goodness for some courses that's another 18 holes.]


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## phildunphy (Feb 18, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I agree with Doon Frae Toon's post on this subject.

If rounds of golf took 4-5 hours every time then I would not play the game. I already avoid several annual fixtures that I get invites to purely for the fact that I know I will have to wait before hitting every shot and I just don't enjoy it when it is like that.
		
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in the last 5 years i have rejected several invites as past experience predicts this and 2 of them were on bucket list courses with 'known' players.

5 hr rounds suck the life out thegame


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nope just stating that it must be a hell of a walk between some tees and greens to make up 6 miles [+4560 yards, goodness for some courses that's another 18 holes.]
		
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My course has about 900 yards between tees and greens. Add into that walking around greens to leave your bag in the right place, stalking a putt, looking for balls it wouldn't take much to knock off your 4500 yards..
Heck, at my last club there was a 500 yard walk from clubhouse to first tee and from 18th green to clubhouse


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

Faffing around dose not count as walking!.

Good spot...........Perhaps I should have added badly poorly designed courses to my 'reasons' list.


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## GeneralStore (Feb 18, 2014)

As a relative newcomer to the game who hasn't played an awful lot with very experienced players I have found this thread quite informative. The link to the R&A was also very good. I took lessons when I started and my teaching pro told me that I needed a pre-shot routine and told me that its a good idea to start it by putting my glove on when it was my turn to play. It would appear that that could lead to slow play and I shouldn't do it. Who knew it was such a big deal!

Having digested this information my comments would be that all of us have an internal rhythm/timing, some fast some slow. Look at a crowd of people walking, everyone walks at their own pace. My rhythm is a little bit slower than others. When I walk in a very busy street I find most people overtake me. The point I am making is that I don't play well if I am not in my rhythm, so while I wouldn't want to take away from the enjoyment of a round for another player, I also don't want to play poorly just because I am trying to to keep up with someone else who is much faster. If people wouldn't want to play with me because I am not the fastest player that's fine with me as well. On the rare occasion I play with my brother, a 3 handicapper, we get around in 3.5 hours without trying to be quick, so I don't think its a massive issue. My usual bunch of mates that I play with can often take 4.5 hours or more to finish a round as a fourball. Long? Yes, but as long as its moving it doesn't make me want to gauge out my eyes and sell my clubs like it does some people.

In my experience, searching for lost balls can easily add more than 30 minutes to a round and if there are a couple of very high handicappers in the group who are perhaps having a bad day you can add an hour.


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## North Mimms (Feb 18, 2014)

Until i got a GPS watch, I never wore a watch when playing so couldn't check pace of play.
My home course tends to be around 4.20 for a round.
Sometimes we would finish I I would say "that was a nice quick round" then check and find it was 4.15, or winge that it had been dreadfully slow and find it was 4.25.
Ten minutes is not the difference  between fast and slow. What makes a round seem slow to me is seeing those ahead wasting time or faffing about. As long as I can seem them actively playing golf, I don't mind so much. We have several holes where as you approach the green you have a clear view of the next tee.
Nothing makes a round seem slow like realising that three of have taken our shots to the green, and no one has teed off ahead!
I know I shouldn't look but I can't help myself. I've always been very aware of where I am on course in relation to the group ahead and behind.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Until i got a GPS watch, I never wore a watch when playing so couldn't check pace of play.
My home course tends to be around 4.20 for a round.
Sometimes we would finish I I would say "that was a nice quick round" then check and find it was 4.15, or winge that it had been dreadfully slow and find it was 4.25.
Ten minutes is not the difference  between fast and slow. What makes a round seem slow to me is seeing those ahead wasting time or faffing about. As long as I can seem them actively playing golf, I don't mind so much. We have several holes where as you approach the green you have a clear view of the next tee.
Nothing makes a round seem slow like realising that three of have taken our shots to the green, and no one has teed off ahead!
I know I shouldn't look but I can't help myself. I've always been very aware of where I am on course in relation to the group ahead and behind.
		
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I agree with that, packed course, everyone getting on with their game and I am fine. Same situation and I see people faffing around (or my real pet hate, hunting for a ball when there is a group waiting on the tee) and the red mist descends. Trouble is I am the only real loser as my game tends to go to pot. When I was out on my own in the evenings last summer I actually tried to settle my game into the pace of the group ahead no matter what the size just so as I would be calmer on a congested course.


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I agree with that, packed course, everyone getting on with their game and I am fine. Same situation and I see people faffing around (or my real pet hate, hunting for a ball when there is a group waiting on the tee) and the red mist descends. Trouble is I am the only real loser as my game tends to go to pot. When I was out on my own in the evenings last summer I actually tried to settle my game into the pace of the group ahead no matter what the size just so as I would be calmer on a congested course.
		
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Interesting that you say it winds you up to see a group hunting for a ball when there is another group on the tee behind - but what if the group ahead of the people hunting for a ball are still well within reach (e.g. chipping onto the green, not even putting yet)? How can you blame the group ahead if they are in much the same situation, but instead of standing in the middle of the fairway waving their arms in disgust, they are making use of the time they have to help a FC find their ball?

I do agree that the person who is most put off is the person who gets angry. One guy I play with really lets slow play get to him, and his game is left in tatters. He always blames the 'rhythm is lost' when waiting, but I'm sure if he just enjoyed the company and relaxed he wouldn't lose his 'rhythm'.

Saying that, maybe I'm just boring company


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## delc (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			But that was just the 2 of you playing a presume? Of which you were at a much lower handicap and therefor didn't make as many bad shots? If she were to play with 3 other people of her 34 handicap, do you not think that would have taken more time?
		
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Normally that was playing with another married couple, handicaps about 15 and 23. We could get round in just over 3 hours playing by ourselves with nobody in front holding us up.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Interesting that you say it winds you up to see a group hunting for a ball when there is another group on the tee behind - but what if the group ahead of the people hunting for a ball are still well within reach (e.g. chipping onto the green, not even putting yet)? How can you blame the group ahead if they are in much the same situation, but instead of standing in the middle of the fairway waving their arms in disgust, they are making use of the time they have to help a FC find their ball?

I do agree that the person who is most put off is the person who gets angry. One guy I play with really lets slow play get to him, and his game is left in tatters. He always blames the 'rhythm is lost' when waiting, but I'm sure if he just enjoyed the company and relaxed he wouldn't lose his 'rhythm'.

Saying that, maybe I'm just boring company 

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Fair point if they cannot play their shot but it is clearly stated in various places around the club that if it is apparent that a ball cannot immediately be found then the group behind must be called through then the ball can be looked for. I suppose, even if there is a group on the green we could still drive off and be ready to play a second shot whilst the hunt takes place. The green should be clear by the time 4 people have driven and walked to their balls.


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## fundy (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Interesting that you say it winds you up to see a group hunting for a ball when there is another group on the tee behind - but what if the group ahead of the people hunting for a ball are still well within reach (e.g. chipping onto the green, not even putting yet)? How can you blame the group ahead if they are in much the same situation, but instead of standing in the middle of the fairway waving their arms in disgust, they are making use of the time they have to help a FC find their ball?

I do agree that the person who is most put off is the person who gets angry. One guy I play with really lets slow play get to him, and his game is left in tatters. He always blames the 'rhythm is lost' when waiting, but I'm sure if he just enjoyed the company and relaxed he wouldn't lose his 'rhythm'.

Saying that, maybe I'm just boring company 

Click to expand...

How does relaxing and enjoying the company keep him his rhythm. Standing on the tee or in the fairway waiting (especially if getting cold) whether having the best time ever or not does not affect my rhythm, its the stopping and getting cold (especially my back) that does that


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## Piece (Feb 18, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please explain last sentence.
		
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The previous sentence did, based on your original tiny statements. There's nothing more to add as it's a separate thread - it was just observation


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

GB72 said:



			Fair point if they cannot play their shot but it is clearly stated in various places around the club that if it is apparent that a ball cannot immediately be found then the group behind must be called through then the ball can be looked for. I suppose, even if there is a group on the green we could still drive off and be ready to play a second shot whilst the hunt takes place. The green should be clear by the time 4 people have driven and walked to their balls.
		
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I'm just playing devil's advocate here - but if you tee off, and in the walk up the lost ball is found - then you'd have to wait then for the group to play up to the green now anyway!

I'm just trying to point out that it's not as clear cut as some people make out that a slow game is always because there are slow people on the course. I'm not trying to be awkward!!


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

fundy said:



			How does relaxing and enjoying the company keep him his rhythm. Standing on the tee or in the fairway waiting (especially if getting cold) whether having the best time ever or not does not affect my rhythm, its the stopping and getting cold (especially my back) that does that
		
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Here's a scenario:

His anger makes him speed up; not only his swing so it becomes more erratic, but also his pace of play, which therefor clouds his judgment on the shot he might take (e.g. chip out from behind a tree or go for the harder shot to 'save time' which ultimately he messes up and ends up taking an extra shot or two, making him more angry). He then starts to try and rush others by tutting and huffing when someone takes their time (and by take their time I mean take and extra 10 seconds maybe?) over a putt or a chip, which again adds to his anger. Add to that slicing the ball off the tee because his swing has now gone to pot and losing his first ball, instead of calmly taking a provisional he does the same again, ending up marching up the fairway; instead of looking for either ball he drops out, so his final score on the hole is a disaster, and now he's ready to walk off the course because he's "lost his rhythm" and it's all the fault of the 4 ball ahead, who, by the way, are having the game of their lives because they're all enjoying the company, scenery, and odd perfect chip / putt / drive / approach which we all know makes us come back each week.

I'm not saying those series of events have ever happened, but I think we can all relate to a part of that little scenario which is by no means real in any way 

I understand that there can be other factors (like a back injury) that might make you lose your rhythm, but for most amateurs I think getting your knickers in a twist is often the cause of a missing rhythm!


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## dufferman (Feb 18, 2014)

delc said:



			Normally that was playing with another married couple, handicaps about 15 and 23. We could get round in just over 3 hours playing by ourselves with nobody in front holding us up.
		
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Well, in that case, you guys were quite the 4ball!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2014)

Piece said:



			The previous sentence did, based on your original tiny statements. There's nothing more to add as it's a separate thread - it was just observation
		
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A very random and weird observation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I'm just playing devil's advocate here - but if you tee off, and in the walk up the lost ball is found - then you'd have to wait then for the group to play up to the green now anyway!

I'm just trying to point out that it's not as clear cut as some people make out that a slow game is always because there are slow people on the course. I'm not trying to be awkward!!
		
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If you have called the following group through and you then find your ball you should really stand aside and let them go on - etiquette.  You shouldn't recall your 'wave through' - though we should be pragmatic and consider whether you waiting for them actually slows this up more than if you just play on and explain to them at some point.  Even if you play on however I believe it is still courtesy to stand aside as soon as they are ready to play.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

MendieGK said:



			I quite clearly state in my post 'on the tee'. I also say ' in my group...' I didnt say that has to be the accepted way. So saying its rude and ignorant is a little unfair to me. I wouldnt never walk in front of people and hit my shot before they have hit theres, but i will walk to me ball if its not on their eyeline and prepare to hit my shot. 

*a round of golf should not take more than 4hrs in my opinion* (*Call me rude and arrogant if you like*). People that think its acceptable are quite likely to be the same ones that think buggies speed up golf.
		
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You're rude and arrogant, certainly arrogant.
It's not up to you to tell me how fast I should play golf. My regular group often take over four hours ......................... but we always let faster golfers through. Where's the problem in that.
Oh, and buggies definitely slow the game up when used by mid or high handicappers.



delc said:



			In my opinion, *4 hours is the absolute maximum a round of golf should take.  Beyond that it becomes more of an endurance test*. One of the problems I see is hackers treating every putt as though it's "this one to win the Open Championship"!  They look at it from every angle and then still miss. Just missing putts more quickly would speed up rounds quite a lot!  A lot of this comes from club golfers copying the antics of the tour pros on TV as they grind round 5 hour rounds, so speeding them up would also help.
		
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It takes as long as it takes and, for me, doesn't become an endurance test. I love the game, I embrace the scenery, I benefit from the fresh air and excercise and enjoy the company of my fellow players ...................... why the hurry?



delc said:



			I totally agree with the last point.  *I personally know several people with children and busy lives who have given up playing golf because it takes up too much time.*  Many the answer is to reduce the number of holes in a standard round, or just to speed up play by whatever means possible?  :mmm:
		
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4Â½ hour rounds as opposed to 4 hour rounds!  Suggest they try 100m sprinting as an alternative .



phildunphy said:



			in the last 5 years i have rejected several invites as past experience predicts this and 2 of them were on bucket list courses with 'known' players.
*5 hr rounds suck the life out the game*

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Wow! 
Really?


*Slime*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 18, 2014)

We have a group that go out before our roll up on a Saturday. They are painful. They have been asked politely, moaned at, and even had it put in writing but they ain't letting no-one through for anything. We have wearily grown to accept it. Despite this, we still play in four hours or less. To be honest Hawkeye and I tend to have a good natter, usually moaning about Fulham and we're getting better at ignoring the pace of play. I find it helps me not get so het up come a medal and the pace of play is inevitably slower


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## North Mimms (Feb 18, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have a group that go out before our roll up on a Saturday. They are painful. They have been asked politely, moaned at, and even had it put in writing but they ain't letting no-one through for anything. We have wearily grown to accept it. Despite this, we still play in four hours or less. To be honest Hawkeye and I tend to have a good natter, usually moaning about Fulham and we're getting better at ignoring the pace of play. I find it helps me not get so het up come a medal and the pace of play is inevitably slower
		
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Put in writing from whom?
Just the roll up group or officially from the club committee?


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## delc (Feb 19, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Put in writing from whom?
Just the roll up group or officially from the club committee?
		
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Over the years, we seem to have gone from anything over 3 hours being considered slow, to anything under 4 hours being considered fast! Courses have got longer to counter improved equipment, so more walking time, and more exposure to televised tournament golf, where some of the pros seem to turn slow play into an art form! :mmm:


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## Slab (Feb 19, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have a group that go out before our roll up on a Saturday. They are painful. They have been asked politely, moaned at, and even had it put in writing but they ain't letting no-one through for anything. We have wearily grown to accept it. Despite this, we still play in four hours or less. To be honest Hawkeye and I tend to have a good natter, usually moaning about Fulham and we're getting better at ignoring the pace of play. I find it helps me not get so het up come a medal and the pace of play is inevitably slower
		
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Interested in general about what folks do differently in a roll up to playing a comp and why one is accepted as having a slower pace but the other isn't? 

(I'm assuming roll ups are still played by the rules of golf)


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## Imurg (Feb 19, 2014)

Possibly some Gimmees in there, plus Stableford rather than Medal and a bit less time taken as the handicap isn't on the line....


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## Slab (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry cant resist...



Imurg said:



*Possibly some Gimmees in there*, plus Stableford rather than Medal and a bit less time taken as the handicap isn't on the line....
		
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So if true then they're not playing _golf _and therefore have no frame of reference for how long a round should take for the game their playing compared to the _golfers _up ahead 



On serious note, I see what you mean, not sure it'll cover 30-60 minutes extra but even if it does, who in a roll-up can then judge the field in front when their could easily be hadicaps on the line


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## delc (Feb 19, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Possibly some Gimmees in there, plus Stableford rather than Medal and a bit less time taken as the handicap isn't on the line....
		
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Stablefords are definitely quicker than medals, because you can just pick the ball up once you can't score, rather than having to grind  out a score come what may!


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## dufferman (Feb 19, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you have called the following group through and you then find your ball you should really stand aside and let them go on - etiquette.  You shouldn't recall your 'wave through' - though we should be pragmatic and consider whether you waiting for them actually slows this up more than if you just play on and explain to them at some point.  Even if you play on however I believe it is still courtesy to stand aside as soon as they are ready to play.
		
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I agree - I was just playing devil's advocate to prove a point!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have a group that go out before our roll up on a Saturday. They are painful. They have been asked politely, moaned at, and even had it put in writing but they ain't letting no-one through for anything. We have wearily grown to accept it. Despite this, we still play in four hours or less. To be honest Hawkeye and I tend to have a good natter, usually moaning about Fulham and we're getting better at ignoring the pace of play. I find it helps me not get so het up come a medal and the pace of play is inevitably slower
		
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Yup - we've got one of them - go out just before our sat am roll-out.  And one is (was?) a committee member should really know better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Stablefords are definitely quicker than medals, because you *can* just pick the ball up once you can't score, rather than having to grind  out a score come what may! 

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*Should? *


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 19, 2014)

OK, so this isn't an exact science and most people probably don't care but...

...using the gpx data from my GPS I have looked at the last 11 rounds I played last year at RAGC. I usually start my GPS as soon as I get the clubs out of the car and turn it off just before I put them back in, hence why it isn't an exact science, but I tried to take the time that I arrived on the first tee to the time I started the walk back to the car park from the 18th green and will include the time needed for me to mark the cards and add the scores up (I always do the card for our group in the roll up, I'm a bit anal like that ). I have worked out which rounds were comps but aside from that, I don't know if I was in a 3 or 4-ball but know for sure there would have been 4-balls in front of us.

*Quickest Round*
3h 45m, this was a stableford comp played in a 3-ball

*Slowest Round*
4hr 20m and played in our Sunday greedy. I remember this round well as we stood waiting for the group in front for what seemed like hours. I am actually surprised it was only 4hr 20m as if you'd have asked me as I came off the course I would have sworn it was closer to 5 hours. This was when one of the group in front told me we were "playing a bit quick" as I past him on my way to the 7th green and he left the 8th tee (par 3), and that they were apparently being help up by the group half way down the 9th fairway 

*Average Round*
4hr 05m.

*Competitions*
The 3 quickest rounds were all stableford comps where I would have been in the 1st hour. In total 4 of the top 5 quickest rounds were comps, the 5th quickest being a medal at 4hrs flat.

*Moving Time & distance*
My GPS is attached to the handle of my trolley and my trolley was moving for an average of 1hr 17m and stationary for an average of 2hr 47m. The amount of time my trolley is moving has a range of about 4 mins from least to most over the 11 rounds, the amount of time it is stationary has a range of 33 minutes from least to most.

My trolley moves 4.5 miles on average

*Summary*
I have no idea what any of this means except that 4hrs 20 minutes on our course seems like a lifetime but is in fact not that long compared to some courses.


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## Robobum (Feb 19, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			OK, so this isn't an exact science and most people probably don't care but...

...using the gpx data from my GPS I have looked at the last 11 rounds I played last year at RAGC. I usually start my GPS as soon as I get the clubs out of the car and turn it off just before I put them back in, hence why it isn't an exact science, but I tried to take the time that I arrived on the first tee to the time I started the walk back to the car park from the 18th green and will include the time needed for me to mark the cards and add the scores up (I always do the card for our group in the roll up, I'm a bit anal like that ). I have worked out which rounds were comps but aside from that, I don't know if I was in a 3 or 4-ball but know for sure there would have been 4-balls in front of us.

*Quickest Round*
3h 45m, this was a stableford comp played in a 3-ball

*Slowest Round*
4hr 20m and played in our Sunday greedy. I remember this round well as we stood waiting for the group in front for what seemed like hours. I am actually surprised it was only 4hr 20m as if you'd have asked me as I came off the course I would have sworn it was closer to 5 hours. This was when one of the group in front told me we were "playing a bit quick" as I past him on my way to the 7th green and he left the 8th tee (par 3), and that they were apparently being help up by the group half way down the 9th fairway 

*Average Round*
4hr 05m.

*Competitions*
The 3 quickest rounds were all stableford comps where I would have been in the 1st hour. In total 4 of the top 5 quickest rounds were comps, the 5th quickest being a medal at 4hrs flat.

*Moving Time & distance*
My GPS is attached to the handle of my trolley and my trolley was moving for an average of 1hr 17m and stationary for an average of 2hr 47m. The amount of time my trolley is moving has a range of about 4 mins from least to most over the 11 rounds, the amount of time it is stationary has a range of 33 minutes from least to most.

My trolley moves 4.5 miles on average

*Summary*
I have no idea what any of this means except that 4hrs 20 minutes on our course seems like a lifetime but is in fact not that long compared to some courses.
		
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See, this is why I'm a NIMBY to slow play.

In 3 balls, I have never been on my golf course for 3hrs 45mins. Not even in club champs.

If I had to endure that length of time on the course, I might have a different outlook. But I don't, so I don't!!


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## delc (Feb 19, 2014)

I think that some people on here must have too much time on their hands and a high boredom threshold, if they believe that 4 hours 15 minutes is an acceptable time for a round of golf. Personally I hate having to wait several minutes before I can play each shot, as I get cold and stiff, and my swing goes to worms. By the way, my GPS watch includes an odometer, so I measured how far I walked today. Playing off the forward yellow tees (6014 yards) it was 5.1 miles, clubhouse back to clubhouse. I measured it once before off the very back blue competition tees (6700 yards) and made it 5.8 miles, although I was a little wayward on that day. Our course includes some quite long walks, particularly from the 3rd green to the 4th tee, 9th to the 10th, 11th to the 12th, and 15th to the 16th.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I think that some people on here must have too much time on their hands and a high boredom threshold, if they believe that 4 hours 15 minutes is an acceptable time for a round of golf. Personally I hate having to wait several minutes before I can play each shot, as I get cold and stiff, and my swing goes to worms. By the way, my GPS watch includes an odometer, so I measured how far I walked today. Playing off the forward yellow tees (6014 yards) it was 5.1 miles, clubhouse back to clubhouse. I measured it once before off the very back blue competition tees (6700 yards) and made it 5.8 miles, although I was a little wayward on that day. Our course includes some quite long walks, particularly from the 3rd green to the 4th tee, 9th to the 10th, 11th to the 12th, and 15th to the 16th. 

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..and how long did it take?


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## 19thagain (Feb 20, 2014)

Robobum said:



			See, this is why I'm a NIMBY to slow play.

In 3 balls, I have never been on my golf course for 3hrs 45mins. Not even in club champs.
! 

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I played back in the old days and was never aware of golf being played quicker than it is today.
Played in a club comp in Carnoustie forty years ago and stood on the forth tee two hours after leaving the first tee.(severe rough, tight fairways and a howling gale)
I am sure the above gent can wander round Spey Valley/Dornoch/Nairn in his above stated time, especially if the course is enjoying the usual sporty breeze.
I do feel if a golfer is playing a short, open course- an oversized pitch and putt - they should maybe appreciate that others play real courses in sporty conditions and times will therefore vary.
I do think the remedy for the fast players or the ones who will give up life/golf due to slower players, is in their own hands - pick an early starting time .... simple!


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I think that some people on here must have too much time on their hands and a high boredom threshold, if they believe that 4 hours 15 minutes is an acceptable time for a round of golf. *Personally I hate having to wait several minutes before I can play each shot,* as I get cold and stiff, and my swing goes to worms. By the way, my GPS watch includes an odometer, so I measured how far I walked today. Playing off the forward yellow tees (6014 yards) it was 5.1 miles, clubhouse back to clubhouse. I measured it once before off the very back blue competition tees (6700 yards) and made it 5.8 miles, although I was a little wayward on that day. Our course includes some quite long walks, particularly from the 3rd green to the 4th tee, 9th to the 10th, 11th to the 12th, and 15th to the 16th. 

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Everybody hates waiting several minutes to play each shot but it doesn't necessarily mean that's the reason for a 4:15 round!

I've gone round in 4:30 and had zero waiting and I wasn't bored 

I think too many recall quick rounds from years ago with rose tinted glasses and that the memory fades of the longer round that surely existed

Edit: I must have got on before the IT bods make the forum _read only_ for today... feel like a bit of a rebel!


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## delc (Feb 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and how long did it take?
		
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About 4 hours for a four-ball, including one rather slow player who has a rather protracted pre-shot routine. There was nobody immediately following us, so we didn't hold anybody up.


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			About 4 hours for a four-ball, including one rather slow player who has a rather protracted pre-shot routine. There was nobody immediately following us, so we didn't hold anybody up. 

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And was _about 4 hours_ unacceptable for you?


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## delc (Feb 20, 2014)

Slab said:



			And was _about 4 hours_ unacceptable for you?
		
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I would have liked it to be a bit quicker, but one player taking about a minute to hit each shot didn't help. His pre-shot routine includes several practice swings and half swings, lots of re-gripping and fidgeting with his posture before he is ready to commit to his shot. We have another player at our club who just freezes over the ball for about a minute before he can pull the trigger. All things copied from the PGA Tour I suspect!


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## Jack_bfc (Feb 20, 2014)

I dont time the each round but I do find that some 'seem' slower than others when infact they aren't.
I did walk off one round in the saturday comp last year after 5 hours and we were only on the 13th.... 

I dont like being to speedy or being rushed but I do make a point of a brisk walk between shots and between holes giving a bit more time at the shot. 
Average is between 3:45 and 4:15 it would seem.

First society on Sunday. I will time that as they do seem slow....


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I would have liked it to be a bit quicker, but one player taking about a minute to hit each shot didn't help. His pre-shot routine includes several practice swings and half swings, lots of re-gripping and fidgeting with his posture before he is ready to commit to his shot. We have another player at our club who just freezes over the ball for about a minute before he can pull the trigger. All things copied from the PGA Tour I suspect!
		
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I'm guessing that the 'minute' frozen is overstating things a little (maybe its like when we're on hold on the phone and we think 10 minutes has passed when really it was only three or four, time does appear to slow down when we're inactive and more so when we are counting down to doing something)


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I would have liked it to be a bit quicker, but one player taking about a minute to hit each shot didn't help. His pre-shot routine includes several practice swings and half swings, lots of re-gripping and fidgeting with his posture before he is ready to commit to his shot. We have another player at our club who just freezes over the ball for about a minute before he can pull the trigger. All things copied from the PGA Tour I suspect!
		
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I suspect the guy who freezes for a minute has far too many swing thoughts going through his head.


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## delc (Feb 20, 2014)

Slab said:



			I'm guessing that the 'minute' frozen is overstating things a little (maybe its like when we're on hold on the phone and we think 10 minutes has passed when really it was only three or four, time does appear to slow down when we're inactive and more so when we are counting down to doing something)
		
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I think that some players' pre-shot routines do definitely contribute to slow play.


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## BTatHome (Feb 20, 2014)

3ball medals (or stablefords infact) often take 4 1/2 hrs at ours, if you go around in less then your happy but generally speaking that the median for almost all qualifiers here.

Played yesterday in a 2ball caught up with 3ball after 8 holes and waited for quite a lot of shots after that (not all, and certainly not minutes each shot) and we finished in 3 3/4 hrs. Didn't run around the courses, and I know some that do !  Certainly when I've been out on my own I've gone around 9 holes in 1 1/2 hours (with lots of repeat shots).

Sorry but anybody saying that golf should take this amount of time, and things not being acceptable is totally out of order. Golf is supposed to be relaxing, not a route march. Slow players do exist but not as prevalent as many believe. Our course is fairly long, with a couple of walks between holes that add to the time , and too many blind tee shots that cause a delay at the start of the round. But many people are happy with playing golf to a more leisurely pace without having to worry about getting round in xxx time limit.


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## BTatHome (Feb 20, 2014)

Slab said:



			I'm guessing that the 'minute' frozen is overstating things a little (maybe its like when we're on hold on the phone and we think 10 minutes has passed when really it was only three or four, time does appear to slow down when we're inactive and more so when we are counting down to doing something)
		
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I agree, even freezing for 10 seconds would feel like an eternity, so it's more likely to be less than even that.


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I think that some players' pre-shot routines do definitely contribute to slow play.
		
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No doubt... but less so that 7 minute 1st tee spacing or 1st cut of rough too long etc


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I would have liked it to be a bit quicker, but one player taking about a minute to hit each shot didn't help. His pre-shot routine includes several practice swings and half swings, lots of re-gripping and fidgeting with his posture before he is ready to commit to his shot. We have another player at our club who just freezes over the ball for about a minute before he can pull the trigger. All things copied from the PGA Tour I suspect!
		
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You need to tell him he is playing too slow and if it makes it easier also say that in other company his speed will be an issue for his PPs - and don't take any 'we weren't holding anyone up' - he was holding *you *up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Sorry but anybody saying that golf should take this amount of time, and things not being acceptable is totally out of order. Golf is supposed to be relaxing, not a route march.
		
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Which is all very well if you are on the golf course by yourself.  But in general you are not.  

Consideration for other players should have you playing as briskly as you can.  I'm afraid it does my head in watching players strolling about the place - sauntering up and around the course without a care in the world.  Happy with their own lot but completely oblivious to that of others.  If a club sets a pace of play that means you can't relax as much as you'd like, then play towards the end of the field or later in the day. Unfortunately your relaxed pace is someone else's extremely irritating and day-ruining pace. Consideration for others at all times.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all very well if you are on the golf course by yourself.  But in general you are not.  

Consideration for other players should have you playing as briskly as you can.  I'm afraid it does my head in watching players strolling about the place - sauntering up and around the course without a care in the world.  Happy with their own lot but completely oblivious to that of others.  If a club sets a pace of play that means you can't relax as much as you'd like, then play towards the end of the field or later in the day. Unfortunately your relaxed pace is someone else's extremely irritating and day-ruining pace. Consideration for others at all times.
		
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:thup:


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## ger147 (Feb 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all very well if you are on the golf course by yourself.  But in general you are not.  

Consideration for other players should have you playing as briskly as you can.  I'm afraid it does my head in watching players strolling about the place - sauntering up and around the course without a care in the world.  Happy with their own lot but completely oblivious to that of others.  If a club sets a pace of play that means you can't relax as much as you'd like, then play towards the end of the field or later in the day. Unfortunately your relaxed pace is someone else's extremely irritating and day-ruining pace. Consideration for others at all times.
		
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So is it only the slower players who should show consideration for their faster fellow players? Should the naturally faster players not also show some consideration for their slower fellow players?


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## BTatHome (Feb 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all very well if you are on the golf course by yourself.  But in general you are not.  

Consideration for other players should have you playing as briskly as you can.  I'm afraid it does my head in watching players strolling about the place - sauntering up and around the course without a care in the world.  Happy with their own lot but completely oblivious to that of others.  If a club sets a pace of play that means you can't relax as much as you'd like, then play towards the end of the field or later in the day. Unfortunately your relaxed pace is someone else's extremely irritating and day-ruining pace. Consideration for others at all times.
		
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Don't remember saying anything about sauntering, or being oblivious ... huge difference from what you infer and having a relaxing round !


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## garyinderry (Feb 20, 2014)

the only time ive been on a course that was going at a snails pace was the par 3 course at my old club in the height of the summer.  this is where all the beginners and hackers play.  I've seen up to 25 people waiting at the 1st.  when the sun shines it becomes jammed with people hacking around and generally taking ages. 

its no so much the players fault as it is the club. the players cant go anywhere because it is so packed. waving through is pointless. 

the club don't mind as its a bit of a gold mine for them. Â£7 a pop makes it very profitable for them.   it also keeps the main course free from hackers for the main part. 

everyone is happy.


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## bluewolf (Feb 20, 2014)

The fact is, if you want to play at a leisurely pace, there is a facility there to allow yo to do that.. It's called allowing faster groups to play through. If you want to play at a slightly quicker pace (which is also a valid choice), you're reliant on the groups before you observing the etiquette of "playing through" .. One group has all the power, and it's not the faster players......:thup:


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## Fish (Feb 20, 2014)

Rose v Piercy took almost 4.5 hours to complete a two ball match yesterday


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			The fact is, if you want to play at a leisurely pace, there is a facility there to allow yo to do that.. It's called allowing faster groups to play through. If you want to play at a slightly quicker pace (which is also a valid choice), you're reliant on the groups before you observing the etiquette of "playing through" .. One group has all the power, and it's not the faster players......:thup:
		
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I'd disagree, an assessed pace of play target, committee sanctions and course marshals exist to keep the slower ones from getting too slow

The power exists on both sides


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## bluewolf (Feb 20, 2014)

Slab said:



			I'd disagree, an assessed pace of play target, committee sanctions and course marshals exist to keep the slower ones from getting too slow

The power exists on both sides
		
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I'd politely disagree. Most courses dont have marshalls, and PoP targets are routinely ignored. Theres a place for every pace of play on the course, it just takes manners and patience from all groups (inc faster players). Oh, and someone needs to stop the extremely slow groups from booking early morning comp times!!


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## Imurg (Feb 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and someone needs to stop the extremely slow groups from booking early morning comp times!!
		
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At my last Club, known offenders were always "drawn" into the last 2 groups......spooky that...!!


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## dufferman (Feb 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all very well if you are on the golf course by yourself.  But in general you are not.  

Consideration for other players should have you playing as briskly as you can.  I'm afraid it does my head in watching players strolling about the place - sauntering up and around the course without a care in the world.  Happy with their own lot but completely oblivious to that of others.  If a club sets a pace of play that means you can't relax as much as you'd like, then play towards the end of the field or later in the day. Unfortunately your relaxed pace is someone else's extremely irritating and day-ruining pace. Consideration for others at all times.
		
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Consideration works both ways - you might want to rush around the course, others don't. Just because a 'slow round' was 3.5 hours 100 years ago doesn't mean everyone else is in the wrong. 

If you want a fast round, then get to the course for the first tee time and play in front of everyone else. Just like super slow players have to be at the back of the queue?


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## Slime (Feb 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I would have liked it to be a bit quicker, but one player taking about a minute to hit each shot didn't help. His pre-shot routine includes several practice swings and half swings, lots of re-gripping and fidgeting with his posture before he is ready to commit to his shot. *We have another player at our club who just freezes over the ball for about a minute before he can pull the trigger. All things copied from the PGA Tour I suspect!*

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I'm guilty of exactly that. It feels like forever but is probably just a few seconds, I've never been timed!
It is not something I am happy with and I'm positively trying to overcome it. It's been a problem ever since I started playing, but, I DID NOT COPY IT FROM ANY GOLF TOUR! Why would I when it's something that I hate.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*You need to tell him he is playing too slow* and if it makes it easier also say that in other company his speed will be an issue for his PPs - and don't take any 'we weren't holding anyone up' - he was holding *you *up.
		
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Or maybe tell yourself that you're in too much of a hurry? Just a thought.


*Slime*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2014)

We use to have a guy in our group I swear had rigor mortis setting in. We timed him once and it could be up to 35 seconds standing over it. Played off 11 so not a bad player once he got on with it. Funny thing was he was like a whippet and straight off the second the last player had hit.


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## Slab (Feb 21, 2014)

Just got a game arranged for Sunday and I know there is no chance we will get done in under 4hours and I'm perfectly ok with that (actually it'll be around 4:30)

Partly due to long course, partly the make-up of the players, partly due to the social aspect and partly due to the fact that its a wonderful course the sun will be out and we'll enjoy the hell out of it and have some fun


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 21, 2014)

Or maybe tell yourself that you're in too much of a hurry? Just a thought.


*Slime*.
		
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Why is it that those of us who play at a decent pace are in a hurry? We don't run around the course, we just don't faff or dither, don't take any longer playing shots than is required, make sure we are aware of our position on the course and generally try to keep play moving. Keep up with the group in front is written on scorecards and signs all over the country, I believe it's even written in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.


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## Waitforme (Feb 24, 2014)

Played at the weekend, we were behind a 3 ball that had lost a hole and a half to two holes at the 9th, although we were at the turn in one and a half hours, so going along ok.
We had waited to play every shot from the 5th. A member of the group in front said to the others that he was not going to let us through as they were playing fast enough having reached the turn in 90 mins. One of the others was kind enough to tell us to play through whenever we wanted, we did at the 12th and left the 18th green as they were teeing off at 17.
It is attitudes like the above that piss me off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why is it that those of us who play at a decent pace are in a hurry? We don't run around the course, we just don't faff or dither, don't take any longer playing shots than is required, make sure we are aware of our position on the course and generally try to keep play moving. Keep up with the group in front is written on scorecards and signs all over the country, I believe it's even written in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.
		
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Thankyou @Hawkeye - I was wondering how to respond to being accused of too fast play when all I do is get on with it.


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## Slab (Feb 24, 2014)

Slab said:



			Just got a game arranged for Sunday and I know there is no chance we will get done in under 4hours and I'm perfectly ok with that (actually it'll be around 4:30)

Partly due to long course, partly the make-up of the players, partly due to the social aspect and partly due to the fact that its a wonderful course the sun will be out and we'll enjoy the hell out of it and have some fun 

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Well got my game yesterday, as it happens 4:30hrs was a good guess and it didn't feel slow but more importantly had an enjoyable afternoon of social golf with a wee friendly betterball side comp (which we lost on 17th green due to my missed putt for a half) our other 4-ball went round 30 minutes quicker than us  

Cool sighting of about 15 giant flying fox bats heading over the 15th green just after 5pm (things the size of seagulls, I swear one of them had a flight crew!)


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why is it that *those of us who play at a decent pace* are in a hurry? We don't run around the course, we just don't faff or dither, don't take any longer playing shots than is required, make sure we are aware of our position on the course and generally try to keep play moving. *Keep up with the group in front* is written on scorecards and signs all over the country, I believe it's even written in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.
		
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Who decides whether or not it is you who are playing at a 'decent' pace, surely this is subjective?
I think I play at a decent pace, for me, as I'm not a youngster & I want to savour every moment of every round and can do so without holding play up. If that takes five hours, so be it.
For some, apparently, this will make them lose the will to live as, in their opinion, 3Â½ is a decent pace, and that's okay too.
Why should I have to keep up with the group in front if their pace of play is far quicker than mine .................... as long as I don't slow up those behind, where's the problem?


*Slime*.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			Who decides whether or not it is you who are playing at a 'decent' pace, surely this is subjective?
I think I play at a decent pace, for me, as I'm not a youngster & I want to savour every moment of every round and can do so without holding play up. If that takes five hours, so be it.
For some, apparently, this will make them lose the will to live as, in their opinion, 3Â½ is a decent pace, and that's okay too.
*Why should I have to keep up with the group in front if their pace of play is far quicker than mine* .................... as long as I don't slow up those behind, where's the problem?


*Slime*.
		
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Because that's what it says in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.

And it isn't about you. If everyone keeps up, or at least tries to keep up, with the group in front, then hopefully no-one will be held up un-necessarily.

I was actually playing yesterday and we lost ground on the group in front, I made a comment to our group that we had to get a move on and the response from one of the guys was exactly the one I would imagine I would get from you, "the group behind aren't waiting so we're fine" - no attempt was made to speed up despite my efforts and comments.

On the 15th, one of our group had a bit of trouble and the group behind caught up and were waiting as we putted out, the group in front were now on the 16th green so we had lost a fair bit of ground. As it turned out, one of their group lost a ball with their approach to 15 so the gap between us opened up again but that really isn't the point. Gaps can open up between groups for lost balls etc but if you do nothing to make up time, things can go wrong, it simply isn't good enough to say you aren't holding anyone up, better to ensure you never do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Because that's what it says in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.

And it isn't about you. If everyone keeps up, or at least tries to keep up, with the group in front, then hopefully no-one will be held up un-necessarily.

I was actually playing yesterday and we lost ground on the group in front, I made a comment to our group that we had to get a move on and the response from one of the guys was exactly the one I would imagine I would get from you, "the group behind aren't waiting so we're fine" - no attempt was made to speed up despite my efforts and comments.

On the 15th, one of our group had a bit of trouble and the group behind caught up and were waiting as we putted out, the group in front were now on the 16th green so we had lost a fair bit of ground. As it turned out, one of their group lost a ball with their approach to 15 so the gap between us opened up again but that really isn't the point. Gaps can open up between groups for lost balls etc but if you do nothing to make up time, things can go wrong, it simply isn't good enough to say you aren't holding anyone up, better to ensure you never do.
		
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Quite.  Keep up with the group in front and if you get held up they should let you through.  Unless the group behind you is up your backside how far behind you they are is irrelevant - they are not your problem and of no relevance to your speed of play.  You keep up with the lot in front.  Because as you said - if you can open up a good gap with the group behind (however it comes about) then you have the opportunity to take some time looking for a ball, returning under S&D, going back to playing a provisional etc - without your group immediately causing a hold up in play.  You play to the speed of the group in front - *not *the group behind.


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			Who decides whether or not it is you who are playing at a 'decent' pace, surely this is subjective?
I think I play at a decent pace, for me, as I'm not a youngster & I  want to savour every moment of every round and can do so without holding  play up. If that takes five hours, so be it.
For some, apparently, this will make them lose the will to live as, in their opinion, 3Â½ is a decent pace, and that's okay too.
Why should I have to *try to* keep up with the group in front if their pace of  play is *obviously* far quicker than mine .................... as long as I don't  slow up those behind, where's the problem?


*Slime*.
		
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Sorry HawkeyeMS, I didn't quite type what I meant to, doh, see insert in red, sorry mate.



HawkeyeMS said:



			Because that's what it says in the etiquette section of the rules of golf.

And it isn't about you. If everyone keeps up, or at least tries to keep up, with the group in front, then hopefully no-one will be held up un-necessarily.

I was actually playing yesterday and we lost ground on the group in front, I made a comment to our group that we had to get a move on and the response from one of the guys was *exactly the one I would imagine I would get from you,* *"the group behind aren't waiting so we're fine"* - no attempt was made to speed up despite my efforts and comments.
		
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Wrong! I'd have said "no problems, lets do it". 
I know that I'm slow compared to some of you guys, but it's not deliberate! I'm not trying to make a point by being slow .................. I just am, compared to some.................. not all, just some.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite.  Keep up with the group in front and if you get held up they should let you through.  Unless the group behind you is up your backside how far behind you they are is irrelevant - they are not your problem and of no relevance to your speed of play.  You keep up with the lot in front.  Because as you said - if you can open up a good gap with the group behind (however it comes about) then you have the opportunity to take some time looking for a ball, returning under S&D, going back to playing a provisional etc - without your group immediately causing a hold up in play.  *You play to the speed of the group in front - not the group behind.*

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It's as simple as that, is it? Sometimes that's just not possible ................... even for me!


*Slime*.


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## bluewolf (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			It's as simple as that, is it? Sometimes that's just not possible ................... even for me!


*Slime*.
		
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And therein lies the rub. No one is asking everyone to play at the same pace. Every golfer has a different natural pace. I'm slower than some, but faster than others. The trick is to ensure that if a gap opens up between yourself and the group in front, then let the group behind play through if they're playing at a faster pace than you. If there's no one behind you, then happy days..

I've no issue with a round taking 4 hours plus if there's nowhere to play through.. The real problem lies with the people who think that their pace of play is absolutely fine and flatly refuse to allow anyone through despite their being a gap of at least a hole in front. These people should be given warnings, then made to play at the back of comps.. (they're not the only ones btw.)


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			Who decides whether or not it is you who are playing at a 'decent' pace, surely this is subjective?
I think I play at a decent pace, for me, as I'm not a youngster & I want to savour every moment of every round and can do so without holding play up. If that takes five hours, so be it.
For some, apparently, this will make them lose the will to live as, in their opinion, 3Â½ is a decent pace, and that's okay too.
Why should I have to keep up with the group in front if their pace of play is far quicker than mine .................... as long as I don't slow up those behind, where's the problem?


*Slime*.
		
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At our course there are signs on various holes stating the maximum time you should have taken to get there. The maximum suggested time for an 18 hole round is 4 hours and 5 minutes, bearing in mind that our course is quite long with some long walks between holes. You don't have to sprint around the course to achieve a reasonable time, just walk briskly between shots and be ready when it's your turn to hit, without any over elaborate pre-shot routines. As a previous poster suggested, try to keep up with the group in front and let the following group through if you can't. It is not rocket science!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			And therein lies the rub. No one is asking everyone to play at the same pace. Every golfer has a different natural pace. I'm slower than some, but faster than others. The trick is to ensure that if a gap opens up between yourself and the group in front, then let the group behind play through if they're playing at a faster pace than you. If there's no one behind you, then happy days..

I've no issue with a round taking 4 hours plus if there's nowhere to play through.. The real problem lies with the people who think that their pace of play is absolutely fine and flatly refuse to allow anyone through despite their being a gap of at least a hole in front. These people should be given warnings, then made to play at the back of comps.. (they're not the only ones btw.)
		
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Which might seem on the surface to be absolutely OK.  But don't forget that letting a group through as well as holding them up will cause hold-ups and bunching for many holes and groups back down the course - and that bunching does not quickly ease - in fact and I suspect in general the course is stuck with it.  

In truth I think it is a little selfish to play at a pace that you can predict at the outset will end up with the group behind catching you and you having to let them through.  You really shouldn't play at a pace that just suits you.  You should play at the pace that you're supposed to and that suits all - so that if the first group out gets round in 3hr30min and everyone makes an effort and keeps up with those in front - then everyone gets round in under 4hrs.  It actually is rather simple.


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			And therein lies the rub. No one is asking everyone to play at the same pace. Every golfer has a different natural pace. I'm slower than some, but faster than others. *The trick is to ensure that if a gap opens up between yourself and the group in front, then let the group behind play through if they're playing at a faster pace than you. If there's no one behind you, then happy days..*

I've no issue with a round taking 4 hours plus if there's nowhere to play through.. *The real problem lies with the people who think that their pace of play is absolutely fine and flatly refuse to allow anyone through* despite their being a gap of at least a hole in front. These people should be given warnings, then made to play at the back of comps.. (they're not the only ones btw.)
		
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Bang on.
I and my mates know we are not the fastest on the course and always offer to let following groups through .............. always.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which might seem on the surface to be absolutely OK.  But don't forget that letting a group through as well as holding them up will cause hold-ups and bunching for many holes and groups back down the course - and that bunching does not quickly ease - in fact and I suspect in general the course is stuck with it.  

In truth I think it is a little selfish to play at a pace that you can predict at the outset will end up with the group behind catching you and you having to let them through.  You really shouldn't play at a pace that just suits you.  *You should play at the pace that you're supposed to and that suits all* - so that if the first group out gets round in 3hr30min and everyone makes an effort and keeps up with those in front - then everyone gets round in under 4hrs.  It actually is rather simple.
		
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That pace does not exist .............. there is no such thing as a pace that suits all, how can there be, everyone is different.


*Slime*.


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2014)

A scenario that happened to me last year.
Four of us were playing on a lovely summers' day.
Unbeknown to us was the fact that there were many two and three balls following us. We were caught up at the 12th green by a three ball that had obviously been holding up several two balls. We asked them to play through on the 13th tee, but they refused, stating that they didn't want to and would prefer to follow us.
What should we have done?


*Slime*.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			A scenario that happened to me last year.
Four of us were playing on a lovely summers' day.
Unbeknown to us was the fact that there were many two and three balls following us. We were caught up at the 12th green by a three ball that had obviously been holding up several two balls. We asked them to play through on the 13th tee, but they refused, stating that they didn't want to and would prefer to follow us.
What should we have done?


*Slime*.
		
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Told them to stop being so inconsiderate...


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			A scenario that happened to me last year.
Four of us were playing on a lovely summers' day.
Unbeknown to us was the fact that there were many two and three balls following us. We were caught up at the 12th green by a three ball that had obviously been holding up several two balls. We asked them to play through on the 13th tee, but they refused, stating that they didn't want to and would prefer to follow us.
What should we have done?


*Slime*.
		
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At least you gave them the opportunity to play through, which is all that can be expected.  Fourballs are almost inevitably slower than threeballs or twoballs. :lol:


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We use to have a guy in our group I swear had rigor mortis setting in. We timed him once and it could be up to 35 seconds standing over it. Played off 11 so not a bad player once he got on with it. Funny thing was he was like a whippet and straight off the second the last player had hit.
		
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We had a member at my previous club who would stand twitching and apparently going into spasms over the ball for at least a minute before he could start his swing. I just couldn't bear to watch this and had to turn my back to him while he went through this rigmorole. The funny thing was that he would then accuse his playing partners of slow play, because the group was losing touch with the group in front!  Although he was a nice guy and a reasonably good golfer, I hated being drawn with him in a competition because I ended up rushing all my shots to try to make up for him!  :mmm:


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			At least you gave them the opportunity to play through, which is all that can be expected.  Fourballs are almost inevitably slower than threeballs or twoballs. :lol:
		
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Absolutely, but groups further back won't necessarily know that & will assume that, as we were at the front of the queue, we were the cause of the hold-up for everybody!


*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2014)

Golfers must remember that things are not always what they seem to be on a golf course.

I recall covering for a ranger for a few hours.
The first six holes where chocka and a four ball with two clear holes in front were standing on the 7th tee.
I started towards them with a view of giving them a severe talking to when I glanced at my tee time sheet and worked out that they had been on the course for less than an hour.
They spotted me and advised  me of the deadly slow two ball that had just let them through.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

There seems to be an impression on here that high handicappers are one of the causes of slow play. However, some of the slowest players I know are actually quite low handicappers, mainly because they take an age to consider every shot and to get themselves set up with protracted pre-shot routines. One of them is also a very slow walker, despite only being in early middle age. They may take fewer shots, but take a long time doing so. At least most of the higher handicappers play their greater number of less good shots a lot more quickly! :mmm:


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## Phil2511 (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			There seems to be an impression on here that high handicappers are one of the causes of slow play. However, some of the slowest players I know are actually quite low handicappers, mainly because they take an age to consider every shot and to get themselves set up with protracted pre-shot routines. One of them is also a very slow walker, despite only being in early middle age. They may take fewer shots, but take a long time doing so. At least most of the higher handicappers play their greater number of less good shots a lot more quickly! :mmm:
		
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The 2 members in our club who get talked about by literally everyone are 4 and 6 handicaps, i played against the 4 handicap when he was still off 5 in 4bbb, 2 hours 20 minutes and we were only just walking off the 8th green, and there was gimmees and pick ups being implemented too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			There seems to be an impression on here that high handicappers are one of the causes of slow play. However, some of the slowest players I know are actually quite low handicappers, mainly because they take an age to consider every shot and to get themselves set up with protracted pre-shot routines. One of them is also a very slow walker, despite only being in early middle age. They may take fewer shots, but take a long time doing so. At least most of the higher handicappers play their greater number of less good shots a lot more quickly! :mmm:
		
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I got the impression that slow play is not connected to a persons handicap 

Seen plenty slow players of high and low handicaps 

I also don't see many low single figure handicappers with elongated pre shot routines - they are mainly seen with the mid handicappers acting like pro's


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I got the impression that slow play is not connected to a persons handicap 

Seen plenty slow players of high and low handicaps 

I also don't see many low single figure handicappers with elongated pre shot routines - they are mainly seen with the mid handicappers acting like pro's
		
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Agree with you on this Phil.  No correlation in my thinking between handicap and slow play.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I got the impression that slow play is not connected to a persons handicap 

Seen plenty slow players of high and low handicaps 

I also don't see many low single figure handicappers with elongated pre shot routines - they are mainly seen with the mid handicappers acting like pro's
		
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In terms of acting like pros, the worst offenders seem to be the Juniors, presumably because they have been most influenced by the grindingly slow play on the USPGA Tour, as seen on TV. By comparison, the arthritic old seniors like myself seem to zip round the course.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			There seems to be an impression on here that high handicappers are one of the causes of slow play. However, some of the slowest players I know are actually quite low handicappers, mainly because they take an age to consider every shot and to get themselves set up with protracted pre-shot routines. One of them is also a very slow walker, despite only being in early middle age. They may take fewer shots, but take a long time doing so. At least most of the higher handicappers play their greater number of less good shots a lot more quickly! :mmm:
		
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Maybe I missed it, or forgot about it, but I don't recall anyone saying slow play is caused by high handicappers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			In terms of acting like pros, the worst offenders seem to be the Juniors, presumably because they have been most influenced by the grindingly slow play on the USPGA Tour, as seen on TV. By comparison, the arthritic old seniors like myself seem to zip round the course. 

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Yet I have seen plenty arthritic old seniors hold up the whole course on many occasion - even this Saturday a three ball decided to hold up the whole course - all seniors


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Maybe I missed it, or forgot about it, but I don't recall anyone saying slow play is caused by high handicappers.
		
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You would think that low handicappers ought to be faster because they take fewer shots, but that is not always the case. Higher handicappers in the Rabbits category can be a bit slow because they take more shots, but that is not always true either. There are slow and fast players in all categories, but the problem is that the pace of play is set by the slowest players! :mmm:


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet I have seen plenty arthritic old seniors hold up the whole course on many occasion - even this Saturday a three ball decided to hold up the whole course - all seniors
		
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I'm surprised that they were playing on a Saturday, as most of ours are 5-day members. Did they have any particular infirmities that slowed them down?  Play on our course can be pretty slow on Saturday and Sunday mornings when there are hardly any seniors to blame! I am a 7 day member by the way, but unless it's a comp, I prefer to play later in the afternoon when the course has quietened down and the queues at every tee have gone. Hardly ever get these problems in the week, even though the majority of players then are retired seniors!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			You would think that low handicappers ought to be faster because they take fewer shots, but that is not always the case. Higher handicappers in the Rabbits category can be a bit slow because they take more shots, but that is not always true either. There are slow and fast players in all categories, but the problem is that the pace of play is set by the slowest players! :mmm:
		
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So basically handicaps have no connection to the pace of play - well we got there in the end :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm surprised that they were playing on a Saturday, as most of ours are 5-day members. Did they have any particular infirmities that slowed them down?  Play on our course can be pretty slow on Saturday and Sunday mornings when there are hardly any seniors to blame! I am a 7 day member by the way, but unless it's a comp, I prefer to play later in the afternoon when the course has quietened down and the queues at every tee have gone. Hardly ever get these problems in the week, even though the majority of players then are retired seniors! 

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They are just slow 

Some of the slowest In our club are some of the senior members who also play during the week

The previous seniors captain was slow and the current one is even slower.

Seen plenty of the 3 ball senior groups hold up 4 balls. 

The slowest of the lot so a senior who refuses to let people through - even in a 2 ball he holds 4 balls up. People start to check he hasn't fallen asleep over the ball. Another senior has been told to only play in medals after 10 after he held up the whole field a couple of times


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			You would think that low handicappers ought to be faster because they take fewer shots, but that is not always the case. Higher handicappers in the Rabbits category can be a bit slow because they take more shots, but that is not always true either. There are slow and fast players in all categories, but the problem is that the pace of play is set by the slowest players! :mmm:
		
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What does that have to do with my post


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically handicaps have no connection to the pace of play - well we got there in the end :thup:
		
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Where there will be an obvious connection is through the attitude of the individual player between shots.  Clearly a high handicap player hits the ball more times than a low handicap player.  Therefore it is clear that the high handicapper who is less brisk over his shot assessment and execution than his same handicap companion, then the former will be slower in playing his shots than the latter.  And similarly the high handicapper who takes the same length of time over his shots as the low handicapper will be slower in respect of his shot playing.  It is therefore incumbent upon the high handicapper to ensure that his overall pace on the course between shots is such that he keeps up with the low handicapper.  And the player who takes longer over his shots has to be relatively brisker between shots.  It is just a fact of golfing life that if you are going to hit the ball a lot of times then you are going to have less time between shots to keep up with a lower handicap player.  But that should not be an issue.


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