# Push Fade



## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

My stock shot with my driver.

Problem being I start the ball too far to the right and usually miss my target area right. Last weekend but about 20-25 yards.

The main cause of the miss is the push. It starts too far right of target then fades. The fade is probably only 10 or so yards, but the push is starting the shot 10-15 yards to the right

Question:

How do I get the ball to start further towards the middle and still push fade without turning the shot into a pull fade?









And don't say aim more left


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## duncan mackie (Aug 15, 2012)

somewhere between getting on the tee and the clubhead striking the ball it's ending up aiming right...

it might be your initial alignment of the club face
it might be a last minute adjustment
it might be that you are aligning it by twisting your wrists - then immediately reversing it as you start the take away
it might be that you completely realign it at some point in the swing through a number of possible actions - a huge number of actions

it would be easy to suggest that you simply aren't giving yourself enough time to return the hands square as you drag the clubhead across the ball from out to in at impact...far too easy


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## CMAC (Aug 15, 2012)

wheres your ball position Gareth (no jokes please)


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## CMAC (Aug 15, 2012)

Just thinking about my own push/fades the last 2 days (normally a draw) have I think stemmed from a lateral slide into the ball as opposed to a good hip 'turn'. I'm working on a better turn and lag now to correct it. Is your S&T swing possibly letting a slide takeover a tad?


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## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			wheres your ball position Gareth (no jokes please)
		
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Just inslde left heel.

I "think" I may be lining up down the middle and not accounting for the push?


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## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Just thinking about my own push/fades the last 2 days (normally a draw) have I think stemmed from a lateral slide into the ball as opposed to a good hip 'turn'. I'm working on a better turn and lag now to correct it. Is your S&T swing possibly letting a slide takeover a tad?
		
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Good well be. Either that or I'm turning (my hips) too quickly and getting (my arms) stuck?


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## bobmac (Aug 15, 2012)

What causes a push fade?
I'm thinking swing path and club face?


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## JustOne (Aug 15, 2012)

Gareth said:



			And don't say aim more left ...
		
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OK.


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## CMAC (Aug 15, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Good well be. Either that or I'm turning (my hips) too quickly and getting (my arms) stuck?
		
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yes, that was the other possibility especially if you are trying (like me) to increase the lag in the downswing...........


so.....in other words I don't know which is why I'm getting .1 back everyweek. Love this game


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## JustOne (Aug 15, 2012)

If you line up square (down the center) and push the ball then it's going to start to the right of center, bye bye ball 




(I'm not going to mention aiming more left so that you can start the ball a little more down the left side....)


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## Alex1975 (Aug 15, 2012)

@OP is the push fade by design? You want it? if so then why please?


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## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If you line up square (down the center) and push the ball then it's going to start to the right of center, bye bye ball 




(I'm not going to mention aiming more left so that you can start the ball a little more down the left side....)
		
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Fair point James :thup:



Alex1975 said:



			@OP is the push fade by design? You want it? if so then why please?
		
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Yes Al' Push fade by design.

Why. More control over the curve (left to right). As it stands now the ball starts out to the right (push), but doesn't fade as dramatically as the pull version. Like I said in the OP. the fade is only 10 or so yards maybe less

I've, nearly always, hit a pull fade with the driver and found I was losing quite a bit of distance. This maybe just me, but I find that I hit a push fade further and have a little more control over the curve of the ball.


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## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

bobmac said:



			What causes a push fade?
I'm thinking swing path and club face?
		
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Agree Bob, 100%


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## Alex1975 (Aug 15, 2012)

Just a thought but have you tried closing the club head just a little so it starts a little straighter.


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## One Planer (Aug 15, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			Just a thought but have you tried closing the club head just a little so it starts a little straighter.
		
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...................... No


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2012)

I would suggest a 'Fade" would be a better shot for you.  You need to close down the difference between your clubface direction and swingpath direction at impact.  When you have done this then its just a matter of alignment.

Rather than over-thinking this try imagine a nail tacked into your ball at address and you want to swing the clubface into the nail so it gets driven right through the ball.   If you were driving a nail into a door frame with a hammer you would'nt swing out to in  or in to out or have the hammer face open at impact.


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## MadAdey (Aug 15, 2012)

From what I have learnt from listening to certain people on here (you know who you are). If you are hitting a push fade it is simply a case of swinging in to out and the clubface is open to the swingpath. A rough guess that you could try is to swing more upright so that you are not coming from the inside so much.

Get a video of this swing up on the site and the more knowledgeable people will be able to give you some good advice to straighten things up.


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## CMAC (Aug 15, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Rather than over-thinking this try imagine a nail tacked into your ball at address and you want to swing the clubface into the nail so it gets driven right through the ball.   If you were driving a nail into a door frame with a hammer you would'nt swing out to in  or in to out or have the hammer face open at impact.
		
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Patrick57, is that you?


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## CMAC (Aug 15, 2012)

MadAdey said:



			A rough guess that you could try is to swing more upright so that you are not coming from the inside so much.

Get a video of this swing up on the site and the more knowledgeable people will be able to give you some good advice to straighten things up.
		
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You can swing more upright and still be very inside. ala Couples, Trevino Justin etc etc
Gareth already has a swing vid on here somewhere


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## MadAdey (Aug 15, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			You can swing more upright and still be very inside. ala Couples, Trevino Justin etc etc
Gareth already has a swing vid on here somewhere
		
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You can even swing more in to out and hit a pus draw. All my point is that something needs to be changed as what he has is getting him nowhere apart from in trouble. Either swing on a less in to out swing path to start the ball straighter. Other option is get your hands working quicker to close the face in relation to the swing path so that  you turn that swing into a push draw.


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## kid2 (Aug 15, 2012)

Im a bit confused here....If you say your Push Fading the ball....It starts a few yards right of the target and then cuts a little why would you not just shift your aim a little more left with the same swing....Job Done!
Maybe your picking the wrong target for the swing path!

A push fade is a great shot to have in reserve....
I think that i push fade  mostly my 3 wood and driver and maybe the long irons at times....But ill give the shape room to move.....Aim to start the ball down the edge of the left rough if you have a pretty tight dispersion.....Or just outside left edge of the green for approach shots....


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## JustOne (Aug 15, 2012)

kid2 said:



			Im a bit confused here....If you say your Push Fading the ball....It starts a few yards right of the target and then cuts a little why would you not just shift your aim a little more left with the same swing....Job Done!
Maybe your picking the wrong target for the swing path!
		
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!!! We are not allowed to mention aiming more left!!!

Tiger hit an almightly push-fade last week, high fading 3-wood from 260yds, he was aiming 50+yds left of the green with his body line, started the ball just left of the green and it missed to the right by 10yds.... total movement in the air from left edge of the green to where it landed was probably 40yds and the commentators were all saying he sliced it !!!????? Knobs.


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## kid2 (Aug 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			!!! We are not allowed to mention aiming more left!!!
		
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Why, So, Because?


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## JustOne (Aug 15, 2012)

Because that's what he put in the opening post...... it's up there at the beginning ^^^^^ if you want to read it  LOL


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## kid2 (Aug 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Because that's what he put in the opening post...... it's up there at the beginning ^^^^^ if you want to read it  LOL
		
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Question:

How do I get the ball to start further towards the middle and still push fade without turning the shot into a pull fade?

And don't say aim more left......


If the OP wants to start the ball more to the middle im guessing that say he wants his ball to reach a desired destination say...(Pin cut on the right side of the green). He wants to push fade it into a tucked pin.......He has to start the ball left of that pin?
He still has to aim left of the destination for the ball to end up at the destination with a push fade.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2012)

i think the (only?) reason that the OP-er is saying 'Dont say Aim more Left' is that that is the road to a 'hacker's slice'! He may alredy be 'Aiming' as far left of target as he wants/dares with the intention of using the Push-Fade to end up in the desired position.

As a possibility - to identify the 'culprit' - would it be worth practicing the same stroke (Push-Fade) but setting up closed to the 'target'. This might have the effect of identifying what the (unconscious?) adjustment has been that has changed the result from the desired one to an undesired one.

BTW. While I'm a Pull-Fader, I find that not only do I have to A-m Left but, at least as importantly, I have to Think Left (left edge of fairway in fact as well).


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Gareth, is your swing in to out, square or out to in?


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## One Planer (Aug 16, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			i think the (only?) reason that the OP-er is saying 'Dont say Aim more Left' is that that is the road to a 'hacker's slice'! He may alredy be 'Aiming' as far left of target as he wants/dares with the intention of using the Push-Fade to end up in the desired position.
		
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This is the main reasn I dont want to be aiming 20 yards left of middle. However, that said. I doing that  (aiming left) is the correct way to position myself for a push fade then so be it, that's what I'll do.



bobmac said:



			Gareth, is your swing in to out, square or out to in?
		
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In all honesty Bob I'd say fractionally out-to in-with an open club face as the ball is starting to the right (Club face at impact) then fading due to a combination of the out-to in swing path and the club face being fractinally open to it?


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

In all honesty Bob I'd say fractionally out-to in-with an open club face  as the ball is starting to the right (Club face at impact) then fading  due to a combination of the out-to in swing path and the club face being  fractinally open to it?
		
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So if the ball is starting too far right, what do you think you will need to change?


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## One Planer (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So if the ball is starting too far right, what do you think you will need to change?
		
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Getting the clubface more square at impact?


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Getting the clubface more square at impact?
		
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You're not as daft as you look


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Getting the clubface more square at impact?
		
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  You're not as daft as you look


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Getting the clubface more square at impact?
		
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You're not as daft as you look


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## One Planer (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			You're not as daft as you look 

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:rofl:

My problem as you know from previous threads Bob is I hold off on the release. It used to be because of my strong grip, but that's now more neutral now and I think/know this is where my problem is I.E not getting the club head square through a good release.



 I have no problem with my irons, even a 3 iron but I just cannot seem to get it right with the driver.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

I have no problem with my irons, even a 3 iron but I just cannot seem to get it right with the driver.
		
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As your 3 iron has a shorter shaft and double the amount of loft of your driver, it may be hiding the fade.
I dont want to get too involved in S&T problems so I suggest you ask James. He'll no doubt tell you to wiggle your hips by and extra 3 degrees, move the ball forward 1.7 inches and increase the angle of dangle by 3.4 litres.;-)


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## Rooter (Aug 16, 2012)

I was developing a push fade, i have "fixed" it by aligning the ball further forward only about 1" ish, probably around big toe/toe #2 rather than left heel. that probably is not the way of properly fixing it, but it has worked for me! essentially i am hitting the ball slightly later when the club face has closed a touch more i presume... It deffo works though, drove through the back of a 295yrd par 4 green last week with a very slight draw.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 16, 2012)

Cough cough... I did suggest closing or squaring the clubhead at address!!

There are only really two things that you can do, change the path of the swingor adjust the club head at impact. 80% of the first part of the ball flight isdictated by the club face angle and itâ€™s the first part is the bit your havingan issue with.  

Clearly I am not a pro, just an enthusiastâ€¦.


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## kid2 (Aug 16, 2012)

Important open to correction here. And this is just an observation but how is it possible to hit a push fadept with an out to in swing path....
I thought a push fade wash hit with an in to out or an in to in swingpath......


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2012)

kid2 said:



			Important open to correction here. And this is just an observation but how is it possible to hit a push fadept with an out to in swing path....
I thought a push fade wash hit with an in to out or an in to in swingpath......
		
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I agree. And squaring the face will turn that into a straight Push - which may or may not be more desirable than the P-F.


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## RGDave (Aug 16, 2012)

Um..um..

I'm not going to read all this. BUT, if I'm hitting genuine push/fade shots, then I just tweak my grip round and hit draws instead!

Works for me. I hit 10 pushed in a row today (5 bogeys) then adjusted my grip and played the rest of the course only dropping 3 more shots.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

If the swing path was 5 degrees out to in to the target and the club face was open 10 degrees to the target, what would you expect the ball flight to be ?


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## kid2 (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If the swing path was 5 degrees out to in to the target and the club face was open 10 degrees to the target, what would you expect the ball flight to be ?
		
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would it be a left to right pull fade bob?
Im  no expert and have little knowledge of the swing but i always thought that with an out to in swing path then you'll be pulling the ball left to right.
And with the in to out path you'd be pushing the ball


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

kid2 said:



			would it be a left to right pull fade bob?
Im  no expert and have little knowledge of the swing but i always thought that with an out to in swing path then you'll be pulling the ball left to right.
And with the in to out path you'd be pushing the ball
		
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If the clubface is pointing 10 degrees right of the target at impact, I would expect to see the ball start right of the target even with an out to in swing


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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If the swing path was 5 degrees out to in to the target and the club face was open 10 degrees to the target, what would you expect the ball flight to be ?
		
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Cheese?..... Eleven? Is this a test? Frimley-on-Thames?


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## Alex1975 (Aug 16, 2012)

Ohhh I love it, we are all like "I am not pro but..."

I hope someone is actually helping the OP in PMs as he is not asking how to hit a draw, he is asking how to control his a push fade with his driver. I am not sure he is wanting to guess either...

All I know is my manhood is bigger than yours.. Im just crap at golf


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			I hope someone is actually helping the OP in PMs as he is not asking how to hit a draw, he is asking how to control his a push fade with his driver. I am not sure he is wanting to guess either...
		
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As I said 



			I dont want to get too involved in S&T problems so I suggest you ask James
		
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And his reply was




			Cheese?..... Eleven? Is this a test? Frimley-on-Thames?
		
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## kid2 (Aug 16, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			Ohhh I love it, we are all like "I am not pro but..."

I hope someone is actually helping the OP in PMs as he is not asking how to hit a draw, he is asking how to control his a push fade with his driver. I am not sure he is wanting to guess either...

All I know is my manhood is bigger than yours.. Im just crap at golf 

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And i wasnt arguing with Bob......Im just curious to know the right answer to the OP's question.....A
nd my own really......

I think that there are far too many people on here trying to make the game harder than it has to be......And i dont care who you are...There is no one capable of hitting the exact same shot twice in a row with the same path,face angle, strength, and height....
Look at James reply about Tiger woods last weekend and yet the commentators were saying  he sliced the ball....Yet the OP doesnt want to aim more left than he already was for fear he'll be told he's slicing the ball.....



Also all the replies about degree's of clubface being open or closed im not sure is really helping anyone (no disrespect to Bob or anyone else) but just by looking at my clubhead at address im not sure i could actually tell the difference between 5,10, or 15 degrees either side of zero......


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest a 'Fade" would be a better shot for you.  You need to close down the difference between your clubface direction and swingpath direction at impact.  When you have done this then its just a matter of alignment.

Rather than over-thinking this try imagine a nail tacked into your ball at address and you want to swing the clubface into the nail so it gets driven right through the ball.   If you were driving a nail into a door frame with a hammer you would'nt swing out to in  or in to out or have the hammer face open at impact.
		
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I think I gave some fairly sound advice.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I think I gave some fairly sound advice.
		
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Sadly, it didnt answer the question which was ...




			Question:

How do I get the ball to start further towards the middle and still push fade without turning the shot into a pull fade?
		
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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			As I said 




			I dont want to get too involved in S&T problems so I suggest you ask James
		
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I don't know what S&T has got to do with ballflight Bob? Are there different sets of impact conditions for each swing type???? There was me thinking the ball only reacts to the contact NOT the swing method ;-)

Closing the clubface a little will start the ball less to the right and reduce the differential between path and clubface so it will also curve less to the right. Chances are you are allowing the clubface to fan open a little through impact in an effort to 'get the curve' rather than letting physics take care of it (laying off the club or dropping the right shoulder through impact) Perhaps focus on the thought/feeling of allowing the toe of the club to get to (or past) the heel. If you overdo it though you'll start drawing/hooking.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I don't know what S&T has got to do with ballflight Bob? Are there different sets of impact conditions for each swing type????
		
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No, but you may have a different method of stopping the clubface from pointing way open at impact.
I'm thinking of the tilting hips to flatten out the angle of attack, therefor dropping the club more on plane which in turn stops the out to in swing


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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			No, but you may have a different method of stopping the clubface from pointing way open at impact.
I'm thinking of the tilting hips to flatten out the angle of attack, therefor dropping the club more on plane which in turn stops the out to in swing
		
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Can't be sure of an out-to-in swing though... his path may be +2 degrees out with a clubface at +4 out (or more). The face is clearly more open (too much?) than the path though. Easier to address the clubface than the path as he can still get his fade even if he is 1,2,3 OTT.

Might as well add.... never like the ball TOO far forward with driver as the path tends to be returning back to the inside by the time it gets to the ball adding to potential clubface/path differentials. As with these things if you don't know whether the alignment is correct then it's a 'best guess' scenario. I would always stand nicely open to PUSH the ball..... it's SUPPOSED to start to the right ;-) To a degree it's like standing open then hitting a huge block shot as hard as you can swing


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## Alex1975 (Aug 16, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I don't know what S&T has got to do with ballflight Bob? Are there different sets of impact conditions for each swing type???? There was me thinking the ball only reacts to the contact NOT the swing method ;-)

Closing the clubface a little will start the ball less to the right and reduce the differential between path and clubface so it will also curve less to the right. Chances are you are allowing the clubface to fan open a little through impact in an effort to 'get the curve' rather than letting physics take care of it (laying off the club or dropping the right shoulder through impact) Perhaps focus on the thought/feeling of allowing the toe of the club to get to (or past) the heel. If you overdo it though you'll start drawing/hooking.
		
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He shoots he scores! Ok now I have hot over myself...

Kid and anyone else, I was not trying to be rude I was kinda being glib and silly and maybe have a little fun with bob and James, though they are having all the fun of the fair already. I was also taking the piss out of myself as much as anyone.


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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

I'd suggest a 'concept' for hitting the push-fade would be to line up NICELY to the left and try to hit balls dead straight to the left rough about 200yds up the fairway. If you can achieve that then all you have to do is open the face a couple of degrees and swing away as hard as you can.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

Can't be sure of an out-to-in swing though... his path may be +2 degrees  out with a clubface at +4 out (or more). The face is clearly more open  (too much?) than the path though.* Easier to address the clubface than  the path* as he can still get his fade even if he is 1,2,3 OTT.
		
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Which is what me and Gareth agreed on in post 31 without any other input from the other experts


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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Which is what me and Gareth agreed on in post 31 without any other input from the other experts
		
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Post #31




			You're not as daft as you look 

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LOLOLOL


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## kid2 (Aug 16, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			He shoots he scores! Ok now I have hot over myself...

Kid and anyone else, I was not trying to be rude I was kinda being glib and silly and maybe have a little fun with bob and James, though they are having all the fun of the fair already. I was also taking the piss out of myself as much as anyone.
		
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I know you weren't Al....No harm done Pal....

What i was getting at is that when i hit a push fade i always align myself left of the destination we'll say and swing in my normal manner in to in.....
Thats why i found it odd that someone was able to hit a push fade with an out to in swingpath....Whatever works for people....But the point that i was trying to make to the OP was that if he is hitting a Push fade as he says and had his desired movement but it was a little too far right) then why not just rotate everything(feet,hips,shoulders,and clubface just bit by bit to the left until he hits the ball to his destination.......
Seems simple enough to me....And i wouldnt call anyone a hacker for aiming left.....Iv sailed past people with my push fade drives(when i hit them properly) that are hitting draws off the tee.....

I know that Foxholer phrased some would say that aiming left is the way to a hackers slice.....But i aim left at times and i wouldn't say im a hacker!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Sadly, it didnt answer the question which was ...
		
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Really!  So closing down the difference between his clubface and swingpath at impact wont start the ball straighter and allow him to hit a fade?


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!  So closing down the difference between his clubface and swingpath at impact wont start the ball straighter and allow him to hit a fade?
		
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But you started by saying  

_*I would suggest a 'Fade" would be a better shot for you.*_

And then you finished by telling him how to hit it straight


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2012)

Apologies for asking again if this has already been asked in this thread - but what happens if you use a 3-wood rather than a driver for the same tee shots?  If it still fades - then I'd suggest that you put away your driver until you can fairly consistently hit your 3-wood 'straight' (the nice side effect of this approach is that your score will come down even if you still fade the ball with your 3-wood). 

I know zilch about the golf swing and am a hopeless helping others.  However I draw the ball - and I know that I 'push' the ball if I 'overswing',  and by 'overswing' I mean that when swinging the club I am *thinking *about taking the club back further than I normally would - usually if I am playing well and want to 'give it a bit more'.  So logical conclusion to this line of thought is that you might also try (with a 3-wood) *thinking *that you are only going to use a 3/4 swing - and see what happens.


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## JustOne (Aug 16, 2012)

@swingsitlikehogan - people tend to hit DOWN a little more (or shall we say LESS UP) with their 3-wood which lends itself a little more to hitting a draw, so does the slightly shorter shaft (easier to swing from the inside).

This whole thread is somewhat splitting hairs as the reason it's called a PUSH-fade is that you push the ball, that means it will start to the right of your alignment... and if it's fading then it'll go even more right. The straighter your swingpath and the squarer the face the less curvature you'll get on ANY BALL FLIGHT. If you want to START any shot more online then you need a squarer clubface, if you want it to curve less then you need to straighten out your path so it's closer to the face direction AT IMPACT.

If you're gonna hit a push-fade then the ball is going to be heading to the right of your alignment, if you're lined up down the middle then you're going to be visiting the right rough quite a lot.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			But you started by saying  

_*I would suggest a 'Fade" would be a better shot for you.*_

And then you finished by telling him how to hit it straight
		
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He is hitting a push fade.  I did suggest that a 'Fade' is a better shot for him.  Do you disagree with this?

I suggested that closing down the difference between his clubface direction and swingpath would help him do this.   I said '*Closing Down*' I didnt say he should have them exactly the same.  Did I ?      I then went on to suggest that if he could do this he could then look into his alignment.

You can always PM me if you want any clarification on my posts.


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## bobmac (Aug 17, 2012)

The OP asks a question.
The question gets answered 
Then the pedantic bickering starts.
Another swing thread where I've completely lost interest AGAIN
No wonder I get fed up trying to help people


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## JustOne (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The OP asks a question.
The question gets answered 
Then the pedantic bickering starts.
Another swing thread where I've completely lost interest AGAIN
No wonder I get fed up trying to help people
		
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All the threads go like that..... I wouldn't let it get your back up big guy

:-D


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## One Planer (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks for all the input gentlemen.

Plenty of food for thought after reading through the replies.

Like I said in the OP, I'm more than happy to hit the push fade as it gives me, in my view alot more distance than a pull fade. If aiming fractionally more left to give me a better start line is the only adjustment I need to play the shot then so be it.

I still want to learn other flights so improving the swing path and impact position (Face angle) will be paramount, but as it stands I'm happy with the push fade as I can hit this without too much thought.

Thanks again gentlemen :thup:


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## chris661 (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The OP asks a question.
The question gets answered 
Then the pedantic bickering starts.
Another swing thread where I've completely lost interest AGAIN
No wonder I get fed up trying to help people
		
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Well once the question is answered why do you bother going back into it if it annoys you so much?


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## Alex1975 (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The OP asks a question.
The question gets answered 
Then the pedantic bickering starts.
Another swing thread where I've completely lost interest AGAIN
No wonder I get fed up trying to help people
		
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Itâ€™s not like that bob, you are highly respected, and I have never heard anyone say anything but that... People like to test themselves and learn and join in and contribute where they can, often to grow their own knowledge. Sometimes people want to be corrected and or have their knowledge questioned.

It really is not meant to be anything other than chowing the fat.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The OP asks a question.
The question gets answered 
Then the pedantic bickering starts.
Another swing thread where I've completely lost interest AGAIN
No wonder I get fed up trying to help people
		
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Bob.  I have not questioned your answers at all,   I gave my advice to the OP and you took it on yourself to question it, all I did from there was clarify what I had said.   Just reread the thread.

What exactly would you prefer?


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## bobmac (Aug 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Bob.  I have not questioned your answers at all.   I gave my advice to the OP and you took it on yourself to question it, all I did from there was clarify what I had said.

What exactly would you prefer us to do?
		
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One of the things I learned during my training was to listen. Listen to or read the question carefully and answer the question.
The OP in this case wanted to start his push fade a little straighter. That was it. 

I shouldn't have had a go at you as there are others on here who seem to go out of their way to try and discredit my advice and question my knowledge not only on the swing but all matters golf.

I just get fed up sometimes especially with the weather this summer but I shall try and lighten up and pay less heed to my detractors.
Apologies


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			One of the things I learned during my training was to listen. Listen to or read the question carefully and answer the question.
The OP in this case wanted to start his push fade a little straighter. That was it. 

I shouldn't have had a go at you as there are others on here who seem to go out of their way to try and discredit my advice and question my knowledge not only on the swing but all matters golf.

I just get fed up sometimes especially with the weather this summer but I shall try and lighten up and pay less heed to my detractors.
Apologies
		
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OK, thanks for the reply.

I still think a fade would be much better shot for him, push fades IMO are not a good idea.


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## One Planer (Aug 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, thanks for the reply.

I still think a fade would be much better shot for him, push fades IMO are not a good idea.
		
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Why so Brian?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Why so Brian?
		
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A 'push fade' starts out right and then fades right from there.  Why would you want to do that other than bending the ball around a  right dogleg, the ball will end up in the right side rough most of the time, unless you start off aiming well left of target.

A fade is a nice controlled shot that starts a little left and bends back into the target.  A much more powerful, useful standard shot in my opinion.


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## bobmac (Aug 17, 2012)

A fade is a nice controlled shot that starts a little left and bends back into the target
		
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If you aimed straight would that be a pull fade?


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## JustOne (Aug 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If you aimed straight would that be a pull fade?
		
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Bob, I don't want to do anyone a disservice here but one minute you're saying that people question what you have said and you then straight away go on to question someone yourself. Now I'm sure that this is just healthy debate and I'm all for that but it does seem a bit unfair for you to (metaphorically speaking) throw toys out of the pram each time a thread goes off the rails or appears not to suit you to then add fuel to the fire yourself. I for one would like to see us all live in perfect harmony where everyone's replies are perfect and never questioned (hell I've had enough stick for stack and tilt over the years) but that's not how a forum works...as we know even Faldo would get questioned on this forum!!

You are without doubt the heartbeat of this forum and I for one am grateful for your posts, I've learned a lot of things from you, not least to listen, but you also changed my attitude (for the better) towards instruction as a whole. There isn't anything that you say that I don't respect...even if I don't necessarily agree with at the time of posting. 

On that note, perhaps it's lost in translation sometimes (I have quite a wry humour) however I don't think I disagreed with a single thing you said in this thread....and I do wish you'd stop beating yourself up everytime it appears that way.. you're a top, top bloke and you should be aware of that....... and the right answer was definitely Frimley-on-Thames! ;-)


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## bobmac (Aug 17, 2012)

I just read the OP.
He wants to hit a "better" push fade without it turning into a pull fade.
 SR then tells him he should learn how to hit a pull fade? he specifically said he didnt want that shape.
If as a golf pro I did that in a lesson, I wouldn't last 5 mins.
The whole point of asking questions is to find out what the pupil wants from the lesson, not to tell him what he should learn.
SR still thinks he's right, I still think I'm right.
We'll have to agree to differ.


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## JustOne (Aug 17, 2012)

I totally agree Bob, however I'm not about to start ripping in to SR for his opinion, or take it personally. If I could give you a big hug and say "don't worry about it" I would  LOLOL


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2012)

kid2 said:



			I thought a push fade wash hit with an in to out or an in to in swingpath......
		
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Foxholer said:



			I agree. And squaring the face will turn that into a straight Push - which may or may not be more desirable than the P-F.
		
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bobmac said:



			If the swing path was 5 degrees out to in to the target and the club face was open 10 degrees to the target, what would you expect the ball flight to be ?
		
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Doh!!

I think I dropped into Old Ball Flight mode there!

Thanks Bob!  (smiley mode) applause (/smiley mode)

Reminder to self: It's (almost) all about Face Angle (and slightly about Swing Path)!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If you aimed straight would that be a pull fade?
		
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I'm getting a bit fed up with this!   My opinion is that push fades are not a good standard shot shape, THAT'S MY OPINION.   The OP asked me why I thought that and I told him.


You seem to want to interfere with my post and then suggest that others are doing the same to you.     As I said before , I dont interfere with your suggestions and I respectfully suggest that you read what I have said properly before interfering with mine.


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## JustOne (Aug 18, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm getting a bit fed up with this!   My opinion is that push fades are not a good standard shot shape, THAT'S MY OPINION.   The OP asked me why I thought that and I told him.
		
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(nb: trying to stay away from the Bobmac/SocketRocket tension that is in the air.....)

Socket, I'm not going to dispute your opinion as you are entitled to it, however I am (am I not?) allowed to discuss it with you and therefore ask questions? I'd be interested in your reasoning behind your opinion seeing that a pull fade would require that the swingpath be more out-to-in at impact.... would you subsequently start recommending that people start their downswings with their shoulders to help promote the required OTT move?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(nb: trying to stay away from the Bobmac/SocketRocket tension that is in the air.....)

Socket, I'm not going to dispute your opinion as you are entitled to it, however I am (am I not?) allowed to discuss it with you and therefore ask questions? I'd be interested in your reasoning behind your opinion seeing that a pull fade would require that the swingpath be more out-to-in at impact.... would you subsequently start recommending that people start their downswings with their shoulders to help promote the required OTT move?
		
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Of course you can discuss my opinions with me, it is a forum after all.

I tend to think that a fade or draw is a good controlled shot that most good players want to hit (nothing much wrong with straight either) .      Shots like push fades or pull draws to me are shot patterns that encourage putting the ball in the rough.

Now!  someone like the OP may want to hit a push fade and if thats what floats his boat great.   It's just that my initial reaction is to try and encourage him to hit a stock shot that will enable him to play better golf.   If he wants to ignore that then thats OK with me, I wont get wobbly about it.

Getting back to your question:  No, I dont suggest that people start their downswing with their shoulders, I assume the OP may already be hitting somewhat out to in as he is creating fade spin, he may be hitting 'in to in' also with an open clubface and right side alignment, without a video we can only guess.   I suggested originally that if he closed down the difference between his clubface direction and swingpath then he would be in a better position and maybe a correction to his alignment would then get him hitting better shots.   As you know, to hit a fade you dont need to make an excessive out to in swing.


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## bobmac (Aug 18, 2012)

I agree


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## RGDave (Aug 18, 2012)

I've been loving this thread. Classic mountain and molehill stuff.

All I've got to say is.....

1) I have a leadbetter grip on a 7 iron. 50% of the endless balls I hit are with this club.
2) I could play with that grip ALL the time and never quite square the face.
3) I *would* hit pushes and fades it I did.
4) So, I don't.

I aim down the left, I aim down the right. I tweak my grip, I closed down the face, I do whatever it takes.


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