# Oh No!!   Not the 'I' Word again.



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2015)

The numbers are acceptable if the people moving to the country are contributing to the country


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## cookelad (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.
		
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Wonder if that 8.3M includes people like me? Born outside the UK to British parents living and working elsewhere.


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## Tarkus1212 (Sep 1, 2015)

cookelad said:



			Wonder if that 8.3M includes people like me? Born outside the UK to British parents living and working elsewhere.
		
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Me too.

If we create enough jobs then the answer to the original question is yes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2015)

cookelad said:



			Wonder if that 8.3M includes people like me? Born outside the UK to British parents living and working elsewhere.
		
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Same as my brother - born abroad when my dad was stationed abroad

Would expect a lot of people in the same situation


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Same as my brother - born abroad when my dad was stationed abroad

Would expect a lot of people in the same situation
		
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even if they took this into account. How many would you really consider to be a lot? 

Personally if people wish to contribute here they are more than welcome. There are enough English who abuse the system, we don't need others to as well.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.
		
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Many of these immigrants are working in our public services.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			even if they took this into account. How many would you really consider to be a lot? 

Personally if people wish to contribute here they are more than welcome. There are enough English who abuse the system, we don't need others to as well.
		
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Well since the 50's there has been over a million military people served abroad - dragging through my memory i think the number was actually closer to 1.5 million over a 60 year period.

Now a lot of that number married etc and had kids - how many would be a pure guess


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## bladeplayer (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The numbers are acceptable if the people moving to the country are contributing to the country
		
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HERE ! this is the answer , no problem in any1 coming in even here if they pay their own way & contribute 


Mind you there are alot of Irish wasters here that wont do that . never did never will , we employed thousands of foreign workers but still had Irish people drawing welfare .. 

Some1 tell me how we had so many jobs , buts still high welfare numbers .. 

Soft government enforcement ..


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well since the 50's there has been over a million military people served abroad - dragging through my memory i think the number was actually closer to 1.5 million over a 60 year period.

Now a lot of that number married etc and had kids - how many would be a pure guess
		
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Ok, so bascially a small percentage of the 8m then really. Because even if every person in the military had a child that now calls England home. It's gonna be far less than a quarter of the total.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, so bascially a small percentage of the 8m then really. Because even if every person in the military had a child that now calls England home. It's gonna be far less than a quarter of the total.
		
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I'm struggling to see what your issue is ? 

I just mentioned that a good number of people were born abroad to military parents and they would be part of the number ?


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm struggling to see what your issue is ? 

I just mentioned that a good number of people were born abroad to military parents and they would be part of the number ?
		
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Lol. I didn't have an issue. I was purely curious as to what percentage born abroad Brits would contribute and figured with you having served you'd have an idea. 
Wasnt in any way looking for an issue.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.
		
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Perhaps we can kill 2 birds with one stone here.  Immigration is increasing, golf club memberships are mostly falling as the old people shake a 7 and the rest of the population switch off their television sets and do something less boring instead.  

So how about golf clubs doing special promotions to attract all these immigrants?  So the immigrants then become accepted and well loved members of British society, versed in our traditions and etiquette. And at the same time golf clubs memberships rise.  Double bubble!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm struggling to see what your issue is ? 

I just mentioned that a good number of people were born abroad to military parents and they would be part of the number ?
		
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I don't believe people born abroad to British citizens are counted in those numbers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe people born abroad to British citizens are counted in those numbers.
		
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But people born in this country but to immigrants are counted ?


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## Val (Sep 1, 2015)

I would like to know how many of these immigrants are not migrants but are refugees fleeing war torn countries?

*Migrant = **a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.*

_*Refugee = a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster*_

Should mankind show no compassion and close it's doors to these people?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 1, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			So how about golf clubs doing special promotions to attract all these immigrants?  So the immigrants then become accepted and well loved members of British society, versed in our traditions and etiquette. And at the same time golf clubs memberships rise.  Double bubble!
		
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OMG, not just the country but into his golf club as well? SR would have a stroke. 



(Just joking SR!)


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## SS2 (Sep 1, 2015)

Radio 4 programme "More Or Less" investigated the 8 million figure. 3 million of the 8million were British citizens (such as Boris Johnson, Bradley Wiggins) who were born outwith the UK. So the actual figure is 5 million.


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## Tarkus1212 (Sep 1, 2015)

Val said:



			I would like to know how many of these immigrants are not migrants but are refugees fleeing war torn countries?

*Migrant = **a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.*

_*Refugee = a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster*_

Should mankind show no compassion and close it's doors to these people?
		
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Definitely not Val, especially as those leaving countries such as Iraq and Syria are fleeing from a situation that he UK helped to create.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But people born in this country but to immigrants are counted ?
		
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I don't believe so.    The ONS said 'Born abroad'


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

Val said:



			I would like to know how many of these immigrants are not migrants but are refugees fleeing war torn countries?

*Migrant = **a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.*

_*Refugee = a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster*_

Should mankind show no compassion and close it's doors to these people?
		
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Did someone suggest they did Val?


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Definitely not Val, especially as those leaving countries such as Iraq and Syria are fleeing from a situation that he UK helped to create.
		
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I'm not trying to sound dismissive of their plight. But, having been back and forth to France during the strikes. Their seemed to be an awful lot of immigrants / refugees fleeing with nice shiney trainers and smart phones. Not something I'd necessarily consider readily available to people suffering true hardship. 

Also, from Iraq to Syria there are quite a few countries in between that are probably more appealing than their homes.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2015)

Val said:



			I would like to know how many of these immigrants are not migrants but are refugees fleeing war torn countries?

*Migrant = **a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.*

_*Refugee = a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster*_

Should mankind show no compassion and close it's doors to these people?
		
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The 25000 Asylum applications are not included in those figures.

Here are the raw figures - from ONS http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migra...rterly-report/may-2015/stb-msqr-may-2015.html


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## vkurup (Sep 1, 2015)

As someone who has worked around the world, I think all these numbers are overplayed by the politicians.  The worlds greatest cities/states e.g. London, New York, California etc will always attract talent from across the world. These economic workers - most of whom end up in senior managerial capacity - earn more, spend more, employ more people etc and will help the economy.  However, these folks will also be followed by relatively junior staff who in the short term may not be so effective but can still contribute to the economy.  The NHS is very dependent on staff from India, Philippines et al to provide front line care.  Secondary care for the elderly is heavily staffed with lovely folks from Eastern Europe.  Recently we had a few Polish gardeners come around to do a clear out - and the guys worked non stop for 8 hours without much of a fag break.


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## Aztecs27 (Sep 1, 2015)

cookelad said:



			Wonder if that 8.3M includes people like me? Born outside the UK to British parents living and working elsewhere.
		
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Didn't want to say anything but you did seem like a bit of a wrong'un. 

This whole ridiculous argument reminds me of this: 







Immigration happens in every country. If people from Syria or other war-torn countries want to come here and make a better life for themselves I'm all for it. 

Of course there are those that abuse the system, but there's also plenty of Brits that do that. 

People are people, wherever they are born, and deserve the best chance in life.


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## Val (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Did someone suggest they did Val?
		
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No, Im asking the question mainly on what number are migrants and what are refugees.


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The numbers are acceptable if the people moving to the country are contributing to the country
		
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My concern is do we have the infrastructure to support those coming here? If we haven't, then no I don't want them here. If 61% of immigrants coming here have a job, as has been reported, 31% aren't contributing. And of those 61% who do have a job, how many of them are low paid and claiming tax credits?

I'd hazard a guess that a decent percentage aren't contributing, and are a burden on everyone else. And to take it further, how many of those 330,000 will need classroom places. Only last year several LEA's, local education authorities, approached the DoE for permission to exceed the permitted classroom sizes.

Please, please, please don't get me wrong. If we can support those coming I have no problem with them being here. If we can't support them I don't want them here.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

Aztecs27 said:



			Didn't want to say anything but you did seem like a bit of a wrong'un. 

This whole ridiculous argument reminds me of this: 







Immigration happens in every country. If people from Syria or other war-torn countries want to come here and make a better life for themselves I'm all for it. 

Of course there are those that abuse the system, but there's also plenty of Brits that do that. 

People are people, wherever they are born, and deserve the best chance in life.
		
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I dont think many of those numbers come from Syria or are claiming asylum.  Most come from places like China, India Pakistan and the EU.


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

*Are the numbers acceptable?* Yes, I think they are. We are living in a growing economy with a sound infrastructure. 
The numbers suggest that 270,000 Brits emigrated. Surely we can't get upset with people coming here, if our populous are doing the same thing. 

*Can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increase?* We haven't had an issue with providing suitable public services with an increasing population previously, so why would it suddenly become a problem now? 

The economy is expected to grow, so that will help us. 
Unemployment is at a low level, which is a positive. 

Housing shortages could be a pretty big issue.

I am pretty confident that Britain will be ok.


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

Aztecs27 said:



			People are people, wherever they are born, and deserve the best chance in life.
		
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Absolutely agree.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			My concern is do we have the infrastructure to support those coming here? If we haven't, then no I don't want them here. If 61% of immigrants coming here have a job, as has been reported, 31% aren't contributing. And of those 61% who do have a job, how many of them are low paid and claiming tax credits?

I'd hazard a guess that a decent percentage aren't contributing, and are a burden on everyone else. And to take it further, how many of those 330,000 will need classroom places. *Only last year several LEA's, local education authorities, approached the DoE for permission to exceed the permitted classroom sizes.*

Please, please, please don't get me wrong. If we can support those coming I have no problem with them being here. If we can't support them I don't want them here.
		
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Or alternatively the government could actually fund schools in local authority control.  Instead of doing their best to run them into the ground to force them into becoming academies.  Of course Local authority schools will need to do something if they have not got any money to build extra classrooms and then employ more teachers to teach in said classroom. So increasing class sizes is the last option available. Unless of course they want to be a lovely academy, out of nasty labour loving local authority control, but sponsored by News International instead.

This has very little to do with immigration but more to do with the government's very ideologically driven education policy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2015)

New British Border arrival information.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...&mid=C1DD6314635123C66569C1DD6314635123C66569


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

londonlewis said:



*Are the numbers acceptable?* Yes, I think they are. We are living in a growing economy with a sound infrastructure. 
The numbers suggest that 270,000 Brits emigrated. Surely we can't get upset with people coming here, if our populous are doing the same thing. 

*Can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increase?* We haven't had an issue with providing suitable public services with an increasing population previously, so why would it suddenly become a problem now? 

The economy is expected to grow, so that will help us. 
Unemployment is at a low level, which is a positive. 

Housing shortages could be a pretty big issue.

I am pretty confident that Britain will be ok. 



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I'm not sure if those leaving are Brits.   I think many of them are Students that have completed their courses.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

londonlewis said:



*Are the numbers acceptable?* Yes, I think they are. We are living in a growing economy with a sound infrastructure. 
The numbers suggest that 270,000 Brits emigrated. Surely we can't get upset with people coming here, if our populous are doing the same thing. 

*Can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increase?* We haven't had an issue with providing suitable public services with an increasing population previously, so why would it suddenly become a problem now? 

The economy is expected to grow, so that will help us. 
Unemployment is at a low level, which is a positive. 

Housing shortages could be a pretty big issue.

I am pretty confident that Britain will be ok. 



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Is it sustainable though?   8.2 million people is around the population of London and these people will have children which will boost that number by a great deal over the next decade while another say 8 million will arrive and so on.  can the country create enough work, schooling, housing, health services etc for a population growing at this rate.  I doubt it very much.

I cant buy into the case that they are paying their way either, if that was the case why are the tax coffers not brimming over with gold?   Some will be contributing but far too many are on low wages such that they are below income tax levels but receive tax credits and housing allowances.   IMO the lunatics are running the asylum with regards to immigration.


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not sure if those leaving are Brits.   I think many of them are Students that have completed their courses.
		
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Would that be classed as emigration though? 



*Emigration* is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere. Conversely, immigration describes the movement of persons into one country from another. Both are acts of migration across national boundaries.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2015)

vkurup said:



			As someone who has worked around the world, I think all these numbers are overplayed by the politicians.  The worlds greatest cities/states e.g. London, New York, California etc will always attract talent from across the world. These economic workers - most of whom end up in senior managerial capacity - earn more, spend more, employ more people etc and will help the economy.  However, these folks will also be followed by relatively junior staff who in the short term may not be so effective but can still contribute to the economy.  *The NHS is very dependent on staff from India, Philippines et al to provide front line care. * Secondary care for the elderly is heavily staffed with lovely folks from Eastern Europe.  Recently we had a few Polish gardeners come around to do a clear out - and the guys worked non stop for 8 hours without much of a fag break.
		
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But NHS recruiters are already finding things harder to recruit from abroad these days since the government stated that those recruited must be earning Â£35,000 within six years or have to leave.  As a result many who would have come are not as they know it would be hard to earn at that level in such a period and they are looking for stability.  As a result they aren't so willing to tear themselves away from family and home for six years - just to be told they have to leave if they haven't reached the threshold.  Good thinking BatCam and Hunt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33201189

Mind you I haven't heard anything much from the gov on this for a while - so maybe (having now consulted with the NHS) they realise that it's a load of tripe and have quietly dumped the idea.


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it sustainable though?   8.2 million people is around the population of London and these people will have children which will boost that number by a great deal over the next decade while another say 8 million will arrive and so on.  can the country create enough work, schooling, housing, health services etc for a population growing at this rate.  I doubt it very much.

I cant buy into the case that they are paying their way either, if that was the case why are the tax coffers not brimming over with gold?   Some will be contributing but far too many are on low wages such that they are below income tax levels but receive tax credits and housing allowances.   IMO the lunatics are running the asylum with regards to immigration.
		
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This is pretty interesting reading - http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/breakdown

[TABLE="width: 580"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Total Public Spending
in the United Kingdom
Central Government and Local Authority
-5yr -1yr   Fiscal Year 2016  [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Public Pensions   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Â£153 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]National Health Care   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£138 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]State Education   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£89 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Defence   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£45 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Social Security   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£110 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]State Protection   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£29 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Transport   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£27 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]General Government   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£14 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Other Public Services   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£106 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Public Sector Interest   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+ Â£47 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Total Spending   [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]= Â£760 billion[/TD]
[TD]
	
	
		
		
	


	




[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Would that be classed as emigration though? 



*Emigration* is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere. Conversely, immigration describes the movement of persons into one country from another. Both are acts of migration across national boundaries.


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Yes, the figures do include students leaving, just as the immigration includes students arriving.   It wouldn't make sense otherwise


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But NHS recruiters are already finding things harder to recruit from abroad these days since the government stated that those recruited must be earning Â£35,000 within six years or have to leave.  As a result many who would have come are not as they know it would be hard to earn at that level in such a period and they are looking for stability.  As a result they aren't so willing to tear themselves away from family and home for six years - just to be told they have to leave if they haven't reached the threshold.  Good thinking BatCam and Hunt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33201189

Mind you I haven't heard anything much from the gov on this for a while - so maybe (having now consulted with the NHS) they realise that it's a load of tripe and have quietly dumped the idea.
		
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NHS recruitment from abroad is a National disgrace and we should be ashamed.   We are poaching Nurses, Doctors etc from less well off countries that have paid the costs of their training.   We should be training suitable numbers ourselves.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...-thirds-of-local-applicants-are-rejected.html


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, the figures do include students leaving, just as the immigration includes students arriving.   It wouldn't make sense otherwise
		
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Based on the definition of emigration, it doesn't include students leaving. It only covers those leaving their native country. 
It definitely does make sense. 

Immigration - people leaving their native countries to come to ours
Emigration - people leaving our native country to go to another. 

I am very confident that the emigration figure of 270,000 is the number of British people that have left the UK to live overseas.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Based on the definition of emigration, it doesn't include students leaving. It only covers those leaving their native country. 
It definitely does make sense. 

Immigration - people leaving their native countries to come to ours
Emigration - people leaving our native country to go to another. 

I am very confident that the emigration figure of 270,000 is the number of British people that have left the UK to live overseas.
		
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It's not from their 'Native Country' but from where they have been 'Normally Residing'.


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## londonlewis (Sep 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not from their 'Native Country' but from where they have been 'Normally Residing'.
		
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According to who? ONS? 

Can you provide a link to that? 

this is the dictionary definition of Emigration;
*Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere. *


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			According to who? ONS? 

Can you provide a link to that? 

this is the dictionary definition of Emigration;
*Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere. *

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This report may help with the definition, although it is a little complex:

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/who-counts-migrant-definitions-and-their-consequences


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 1, 2015)

I don't agree with anyone who says we have the infrastructure to cope with the increase in population. Two examples:

1)  I recently had to take my girlfriend to A&E. The waiting time after being seen by the triage nurse was estimated at 4 hours, in most cases it was longer. The number of native Britons waiting was less than 50%

2)  I have been in my current job 7 years. My daily commute used to take 40-45mins, it now takes 1hr15 due to the increased number of cars. When I look at people in cars around me there is once again a very high percentage of non native Britons.

This country is too small to cope with the numbers coming here.


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## c1973 (Sep 1, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't agree with anyone who says we have the infrastructure to cope with the increase in population. Two examples:

1)  I recently had to take my girlfriend to A&E. The waiting time after being seen by the triage nurse was estimated at 4 hours, in most cases it was longer. The number of native Britons waiting was less than 50%

2)  I have been in my current job 7 years. My daily commute used to take 40-45mins, it now takes 1hr15 due to the increased number of cars. When I look at people in cars around me there is once again a very high percentage of non native Britons.

This country is too small to cope with the numbers coming here.
		
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Small point.

How do you know who was a native Briton in a car around you and who wasn't?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 1, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Small point.

How do you know who was a native Briton in a car around you and who wasn't?
		
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There were a few clues......eastern European number plates on some of the cars, people talking in foreign languages (summer, stationary traffic, windows open) etc


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## Farneyman (Sep 1, 2015)

You will all enjoy this. Don't forget your history. 

This guy tells it well. Worth watching the video clip. Some great jokes.

http://www.theladbible.com/articles...-audience-about-their-country-s-colonial-past


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## c1973 (Sep 1, 2015)

drive4show said:



			There were a few clues......eastern European number plates on some of the cars, people talking in foreign languages (summer, stationary traffic, windows open) etc
		
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Hmmm.  I see.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 2, 2015)

I feel London isn't coping too well with the influx of newcomers in recent times...

In the fullness of time [with PROPER government support] the issues will be resolved...
Always been the case in my lifetime anyway...

In the meantime I feel too many are being disadvantaged...
When infant/primary school kids are having to be bussed to get to a school, in a city, something is not right...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 2, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Hmmm.  I see.
		
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I work in Southampton which has the largest Polish population in the country (30k out of 240k, more than 10%). It's not difficult to spot a non native person here.


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## londonlewis (Sep 2, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't agree with anyone who says we have the infrastructure to cope with the increase in population. Two examples:

1)  I recently had to take my girlfriend to A&E. The waiting time after being seen by the triage nurse was estimated at 4 hours, in most cases it was longer. The number of native Britons waiting was less than 50%

2)  I have been in my current job 7 years. My daily commute used to take 40-45mins, it now takes 1hr15 due to the increased number of cars. When I look at people in cars around me there is once again a very high percentage of non native Britons.

This country is too small to cope with the numbers coming here.
		
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1) what was the nationality of the triage nurse and doctor? 

2) Are there any roadworks taking place on your daily commute? Have there been any changes to your route? 
Have new employers moved to Southampton with similar office hours to yours, which would mean more people commuting at the same time as you? 

I don't think you can blame foreigners for commute. Seems pretty narrow minded. 

Hope your girlfriend was ok.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			1) what was the nationality of the triage nurse and doctor? 

2) Are there any roadworks taking place on your daily commute? Have there been any changes to your route? 
Have new employers moved to Southampton with similar office hours to yours, which would mean more people commuting at the same time as you? 

I don't think you can blame foreigners for commute. Seems pretty narrow minded. 

Hope your girlfriend was ok.
		
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You are trying to ignore the Elephant in the room.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't agree with anyone who says we have the infrastructure to cope with the increase in population. Two examples:

1)  I recently had to take my girlfriend to A&E. The waiting time after being seen by the triage nurse was estimated at 4 hours, in most cases it was longer. The number of native Britons waiting was less than 50%

2)  I have been in my current job 7 years. My daily commute used to take 40-45mins, it now takes 1hr15 due to the increased number of cars. When I look at people in cars around me there is once again a very high percentage of non native Britons.

*This country is too small to cope with the numbers coming here.*

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On what grounds is it 'too small'  Loads of empty space about if you have a look around. The NEA (http://uknea.unep-wcmc.org/) calculates that 6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban (a definition that includes rural development and roads).


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## londonlewis (Sep 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You are trying to ignore the Elephant in the room.
		
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I tend to ignore people who are condescending, yes.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On what grounds is it 'too small'  Loads of empty space about if you have a look around. The NEA (http://uknea.unep-wcmc.org/) calculates that 6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban (a definition that includes rural development and roads).
		
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You know very well what he was saying but choose to misrepresent it.    He was referring to services not being able to cope with the numbers not whether it was possible to build houses over the whole country.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I tend to ignore people who are condescending, yes.
		
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Difficult to ignore Elephants in rooms though.


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## londonlewis (Sep 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Difficult to ignore Elephants in rooms though.
		
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So far there has been little evidence to support any emotional argument being made about the immigration levels in the UK. That's all we have had, emotional opinions dressed up as facts. 
I find it very difficult to ever agree with people that say 'sorry foreigners, we're full!'. I find it a very narrow minded mindset.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You know very well what he was saying but choose to misrepresent it.    He was referring to services not being able to cope with the numbers not whether it was possible to build houses over the whole country.
		
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Services is infrastructure is public spending - that can always be provided by a government so inclined.  Statements like the country is 'too small' or 'full up' are emotive and simply about space and yes - within the boundaries of a country that is limited.   But Britain isn't physically too small or full up - these are just terms used to strike fear into the populace.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Difficult to ignore Elephants in rooms though.
		
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Does it matter whether the elephants are Indian or African?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 2, 2015)

I didn't mind immigrants but when they started bringing their elephants it was too much. Close the borders!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does it matter whether the elephants are Indian or African?
		
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Not when you're sitting at the back end.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2015)

And so yet again Cameron's oh so earnest justification for not accepting more Syrian refugees is that it is better that we (UK?) help sort out Syria. Erm - yes David.  What's your short term plan for doing that then? 

Because once we know your plan and timescales to implement it we'll be in a better position to help you assess how many Syrians we can accept each month as we wait for your plan to come to fruition and they can then return to a safe Syria.  He does make me laugh as he spouts this stuff expecting us to take him seriously whilst thousands of refugees and asylum seekers are in and heading further into Europe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Not when you're sitting at the back end.
		
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for the Indian elephant is likely to be a legal elephant and the African an illegal elephant.  They are both big and could be a problem - but one has a right to be there


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			for the Indian elephant is likely to be a legal elephant and the African an illegal elephant.  They are both big and could be a problem - but one has a right to be there
		
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Nimfr.

Not in my front room!


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so yet again Cameron's oh so earnest justification for not accepting more Syrian refugees is that it is better that we (UK?) help sort out Syria. Erm - yes David.  What's your short term plan for doing that then? 

Because once we know your plan and timescales to implement it we'll be in a better position to help you assess how many Syrians we can accept each month as we wait for your plan to come to fruition and they can then return to a safe Syria.  He does make me laugh as he spouts this stuff expecting us to take him seriously whilst thousands of refugees and asylum seekers are in and heading further into Europe.
		
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With respect, that isn't what David Cameron said. He said we have taken refugees from Syria, and we will keep this under review, but we think the most important thing is to stabilise that region.

 â€œWe are taking action right across the board, helping countries from  which these people are coming, stabilising them and trying to make sure  there are worthwhile jobs and stronger economies there.
â€œWe  are obviously taking action at Calais and the Channel, thereâ€™s more that  we need to do and we are working together with our European partners as  well. These are big challenges but we will meet them.â€

What part of the above suggests he's now sitting back and twiddling his thumbs?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2015)

12th dec 2013 tashyboy joined the golf monthly forum and his first post was was immigration, good for the country or not. Contrary to how the topic went, I did not know whether it was or was not.

Nearly two years later, the same question applies.

what I do think is that two years later the Government still does not have a clue.

Contrary to what Hobbit said that the government is taking action on the Channel tunnel. Those that spent last night in darkness, may well think that the government is not doing enough.

The fact that Mr Cameron states that the countries in which these immigrants are coming from need "making safe/ sorting out etc, etc etc, " . Makes me shake my head. yes Afghanistan and Syria are war torn countries. But some of these migrants, immigrants, refugees etc want to come here from safe countries because we offer a better life.

EU  law in which migrants/ refugees etc have no respect of, state you must claim asylum in the first EU country in which you arrive at. Which puts a massive pressure/ burden on Greece/Turkey/ Hungary etc and is fine and dandy for the UK.

But Mr Cameron is in a massive lose lose situation. By the end of 2017 this country wil have an in out Vote on staying in the EU. If he opens the door to a mass influx of migrants his chance of staying in the EU may well be doomed. Something he can ill afford.

as a UK citizen, I have asked this question countless times and received no answer. What is the benefit of me being a member of the EU?

It never helped me in my job and I am struggling to grasp what it actually does for me and my family.

honestly don't know what the answer is to this migration problem but an EU  that is supposed to be united is poles apart (ie UK and Germany) when it comes to migration


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2015)

UK's politics on the matter has now degenerated into a political football.

Yvette Cooper says we should do more which I find surprising since the Labour Party claim to represent the 'working class' and especially the lower paid in society yet those are precisely the people who have suffered most from the influx of people who are prepared to work for low pay, zero hours contracts and in the black economy.

The UK land mass is one of the smallest so we have some of the highest population densities in the world. Many ethnic group prefer to live with like minded people from the same cultural backgrounds so rather than integration we have increasing levels of segregation which is causing divisions in towns and cities. Adding significantly more people (frequently young males, rather than families) will cause further unrest from the segregation.

At some stage, if we want to preserve the caring society that makes the UK attractive, we will need to adopt a stronger approach more akin to the measures Australia uses.

That does not mean ignoring the genuine humanitarian need which are caused by rogue, despot leader.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

The current wave (Swarm) of people migrating to Europe from Africa was not what I was referring to when starting this thread.  These people do of course have an impact on UK immigration but not currently by a great amount.   The legal levels are what I have concerns for and if these were not so large then taking on some of the Syrian Refugees would not seem so much of an issue, it's when you add them to the tidal wave we are currently absorbing legally (almost to the point of saturation) that it causes concerns.

This country has been a very nice place to live and the reason is that the population has been naturally of a level that does not create stress on the services we have worked hard to build and maintain.   Once the population of a country reaches and passes a critical point where support services become creaky or even start to break down then standards of living fall and the place is not so nice anymore.   I am not at all convinced by the case that these people work and contribute more than they take out and that we need more and more to support the ageing population.    All these arguments have big flaws  and are not supported by world historical examples.     Sadly we are sailing blindly into the dark like the 'ship of fools' without a firm hand on the tiller.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2015)

If the current rates of immigration/ migration are acceptable ( and I am not saying they are/are not). What figure of people do we get to of people living in the UK before we say there's to many.
furthermore do we fill this country with an unskilled workforce ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 2, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			If the current rates of immigration/ migration are acceptable ( and I am not saying they are/are not). What figure of people do we get to of people living in the UK before we say there's to many.
furthermore do we fill this country with an unskilled workforce ?
		
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Unskilled ?!


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## jp5 (Sep 2, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			as a UK citizen, I have asked this question countless times and received no answer. What is the benefit of me being a member of the EU?

It never helped me in my job and I am struggling to grasp what it actually does for me and my family.
		
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Can TashyBoy comprehend that there may be people outside of his direct family that benefit from membership of the EU?


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## jp5 (Sep 2, 2015)

It's a hell of a problem.

The UK should be in a position to accept a large number of asylum seekers.

Unfortunately due to many years of underinvestment in housing, cuts to public services, and record levels of legal migration - everyone is feeling squeezed already. When that happens people get nervous and focus on themselves.

That's not the fault of these people risking their lives to find safety, and we should welcome them to our country.

Germany are looking at taking in 800,000 refugees this year. We should be able to take at least 500,000.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Germany are looking at taking in 800,000 refugees this year. We should be able to take at least 500,000.
		
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Based on a finger in the air analysis?


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## jp5 (Sep 2, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Based on a finger in the air analysis?
		
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Based on some our metrics being ~2/3rds of theirs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 2, 2015)

Jeremy Vine was discussing this today and whether it's an EU problem or a world problem, some interesting stats came out, I believe last year Germany took 500,000 (maybe more) immigrants in, we took in 300,000 but our figures include professionals (ie people working in the finance or business sector) Germany's doesn't, and we were accused of not doing enough when we are the 6th richest country on the planet, however, the most interesting stat was that in the same period Japan, who are in the top 5 of richest countries took in 6, yes SIX, it maybe on our borders but I firmly believe the world should be helping.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			It's a hell of a problem.

The UK should be in a position to accept a large number of asylum seekers.

Unfortunately due to many years of underinvestment in housing, cuts to public services, and record levels of legal migration - everyone is feeling squeezed already. When that happens people get nervous and focus on themselves.

That's not the fault of these people risking their lives to find safety, and we should welcome them to our country.

Germany are looking at taking in 800,000 refugees this year. We should be able to take at least 500,000.
		
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Where are these 500,000 people going to live?


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## jp5 (Sep 2, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Where are these 500,000 people going to live?
		
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Dorset.

Seriously, where do you think?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Can TashyBoy comprehend that there may be people outside of his direct family that benefit from membership of the EU?
		
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I certainly can comprehend that others do benefit, but I and my immediate family do not benefit, and when it comes to voting to stay in the EU, immigration will be one of many factors in which I will make my decision. 

Furthermore, to state we can absorb 500,000 migrants, my point still remains. Why? 500,000. What happens next year and the year after and so on. What do we do then. Who makes the decision we are full and when. 

I am am not saying that we should not take any at all. But the leaders of the EU which together by creating open borders, have created this problem. Now they cannot agree on how to solve it. Until they do I fear we will be seeing more heart breaking images similar to the little boy on the beach.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2015)

500,000 , do people who suggest figures like this stop and consider what that number actually represents.  It's more than the population of Bristol or Edinburgh, more than twice twice that of Swindon.   A housing crisis!!  struth! no wonder, we currently would need to build a house every three minutes to house the current levels of immigration.   Also, if anyone thinks the majority of German people are happy with the numbers they are taking then think again, don't believe everything the  media tells you.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 3, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Dorset.

Seriously, where do you think?
		
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I have no idea hence why I asked the question. There is already a housing shortage in this country.

Any suggestions?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2015)

Re Housing.....how many empty/unused houses do you think there are in the UK.
I would imagine there are more than 500,000. 
We need planning/occupancy laws to be altered to meet this challenge.

Once again Cameron is totally out of touch with this one.
How can we as a nation heartlessly look the other way when this sort of is suffering goes on.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 3, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re Housing.....how many empty/unused houses do you think there are in the UK.
I would imagine there are more than 500,000. 
We need planning/occupancy laws to be altered to meet this challenge.

Once again Cameron is totally out of touch with this one.
How can we as a nation heartlessly look the other way when this sort of is suffering goes on.
		
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If there are lots of empty/unused houses in this country, why are there so many homeless British people sleeping on the streets? I have nothing against helping others but surely we should be helping our own people out first?


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How can we as a nation heartlessly look the other way when this sort of is suffering goes on.
		
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Having just Googled the Independent newspaper to see what the image is that they printed on today's front page... it is too harrowing to post up.

 Surely there is more we can do? Must do!!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Having just Googled the Independent newspaper to see what the image is that they printed on today's front page... it is too harrowing to post up.

 Surely there is more we can do? Must do!!
		
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Not seen it but would imagine it was where I wrote about the poor child. And yes surely there must be something we should do, because at the moment it feels like we're doing nowt, towards a problem this government has helped create.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Not seen it but would imagine it was where I wrote about the poor child. And yes surely there must be something we should do, because at the moment it feels like we're doing nowt, towards a problem this government has helped create.
		
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If we can mobilise xxxxx thousands of troops from various nations because Saddam invaded Kuwait, there's no excuse for the lip service effort we're seeing.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

drdel said:



			The UK land mass is one of the smallest so we have some of the highest population densities in the world.
		
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That's clearly not true. 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

It seems a few of the rags have changed their opinion - The Daily Mail for example had front page saying "Stop the Flood of Immigrants " only 5 days ago now the front page is that poor little girl with them asking us to do something 

Social media has one paper a few weeks ago suggesting gunboats sort out the immigration and now again the same paper has the same picture of the girl - hypocrites the lot of them


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			But the leaders of the EU which together by creating open borders, have created this problem.
		
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Do you know why the European Union was created in the first place?


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It seems a few of the rags have changed their opinion - The Daily Mail for example had front page saying "Stop the Flood of Immigrants " only 5 days ago now the front page is that poor little girl with them asking us to do something 

Social media has one paper a few weeks ago suggesting gunboats sort out the immigration and now again the same paper has the same picture of the girl - hypocrites the lot of them
		
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In reality Phil, Newspapers only serve us what they believe we want.. And trust me, certain newspapers know their demographics very very well.. If you want to know the real "Mood of the Nation", just take a look at the headlines on the bottom shelf papers.. In my humble opinion, they don't paint a pretty picture of what we, as a Nation, prioritize..


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

drive4show said:



			If there are lots of empty/unused houses in this country, why are there so many homeless British people sleeping on the streets? I have nothing against helping others but surely we should be helping our own people out first?
		
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People aren't homeless because they couldn't find a place to buy or rent.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

When I first posted on here dec 2013 about immigration, it just feels a couple of years have gone by and there is no government policy/ plan of action, whatever you want to call it. Two wasted years. Furthermore I have a gut feeling the response will be a wrong "knee jerk" reaction.

yes I do believe that the EU should be helping to solve a problem it has helped create, but and this is a massive but, Japan took in six migrants last year. But what about the oil rich States. Surely they have as much responsibility. An interesting read about oil rich I country's in the Middle East and immigration on the BBC website today.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			When I first posted on here dec 2013 about immigration, it just feels a couple of years have gone by and there is no government policy/ plan of action, whatever you want to call it. Two wasted years. Furthermore I have a gut feeling the response will be a wrong "knee jerk" reaction.

yes I do believe that the EU should be helping to solve a problem it has helped create, but and this is a massive but, Japan took in six migrants last year. But what about the oil rich States. Surely they have as much responsibility. An interesting read about oil rich I country's in the Middle East and immigration on the BBC website today.
		
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I expect the U.S. Take a lot of Mexican immigrants and certainly when I was in Dubai there was a great deal amount of immigrants working


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Do you know why the European Union was created in the first place?
		
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I did and I have just had a quick read on Wikipedia to refresh myself with the origins of EU.
What I did not know is that the first origins of an EU was signing a treaty after the Second World War on Steel and coal, ( tools used to make war machines). Seems a bit ironic that a treaty that was initially set up for miners, never helped me and thousands of others. thanks for helping me realise even more that the EU has done nowt for me.

back on topic.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Japan took in six migrants last year.
		
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Can you share your source for this statistic please? 

I've googled it and can't find what you are talking about. 
The figures I found state that Japan's net migration over the last 4 years was 350,000. Over the same time period the UK's was 900,000. 
Given that Japan is significantly more densely populated than the UK I think we can understand why their figure is lower. 

Maybe you are talking about how many asylum seekers Japan took in?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I expect the U.S. Take a lot of Mexican immigrants and certainly when I was in Dubai there was a great deal amount of immigrants working
		
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 I think reading the difference between the EU and Middle East is that IN the EU, migrants have opportunities to improve the lifestyle. In oil rich States, they make it expensive and nigh on impossible for you to enter, and if you do there's not much chance to improve your lifestyle. As stated by the Beeb.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			I did and I have just had a quick read on Wikipedia to refresh myself with the origins of EU.
What I did not know is that the first origins of an EU was signing a treaty after the Second World War on Steel and coal, ( tools used to make war machines). Seems a bit ironic that a treaty that was initially set up for miners, never helped me and thousands of others. thanks for helping me realise even more that the EU has done nowt for me.

back on topic.
		
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It wasn't 'set up for miners'. It was set up to stop war. 

So sorry that the prevention of World Wars is not something you have benefited from.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Can you share your source for this statistic please? 

I've googled it and can't find what you are talking about. 
The figures I found state that Japan's net migration over the last 4 years was 350,000. Over the same time period the UK's was 900,000. 
Given that Japan is significantly more densely populated than the UK I think we can understand why their figure is lower. 

Maybe you are talking about how many asylum seekers Japan took in?
		
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Yup read post 75, thing is though you have mentioned what I was trying to say earlier on in this topic re taking on 500,000. If we continue along the lines as you suggested we and most of Europe will end up like Japan ( densely populated). Can we as a country or Europe support that population. I don't think so.

off golfing gents.&#128077;


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			It wasn't 'set up for miners'. It was set up to stop war. 

So sorry that the prevention of World Wars is not something you have benefited from.
		
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Thats right it was, but it never did a great deal in the Balkans either did it?


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Yup read post 75, thing is though you have mentioned what I was trying to say earlier on in this topic re taking on 500,000. If we continue along the lines as you suggested we and most of Europe will end up like Japan ( densely populated). Can we as a country or Europe support that population. I don't think so.

off golfing gents.&#128077;
		
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I haven't suggested anything.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Thats right it was, but it never did a great deal in the Balkans either did it?
		
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I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this or why you felt it was important to write in the first place? 

It's impossible to reason with you Tashy, you've obviously decided that the EU has nothing to offer you. What do you have to offer the EU?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Can you share your source for this statistic please? 

I've googled it and can't find what you are talking about. 
The figures I found state that Japan's net migration over the last 4 years was 350,000. Over the same time period the UK's was 900,000. 
Given that Japan is significantly more densely populated than the UK I think we can understand why their figure is lower. 

Maybe you are talking about how many asylum seekers Japan took in?
		
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Japan is also one heck of an expensive place to live and not many folks outside of Japan have Japanese as a second language - so not very attractive place to go on the basis that speaking the language is always a good start when you move somewhere,


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I have no idea hence why I asked the question. There is already a housing shortage in this country.

Any suggestions?
		
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There isn't a housing shortage in this country.

And the answer is that 0.5M refugees spread across our land absolutely is manageable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Can you share your source for this statistic please? 

I've googled it and can't find what you are talking about. 
The figures I found state that Japan's net migration over the last 4 years was 350,000. Over the same time period the UK's was 900,000. 
Given that Japan is significantly more densely populated than the UK I think we can understand why their figure is lower. 

Maybe you are talking about how many asylum seekers Japan took in?
		
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It was me who quoted the Six Japan took in, it was quoted on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday against 500,000 for German and 300,000 for UK during the same period.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Japan is also one heck of an expensive place to live and not many folks outside of Japan have Japanese as a second language - so not very attractive place to go on the basis that speaking the language is always a good start when you move somewhere,
		
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So your house is destroyed, your life is on the line, your running with your family and you're going to say to Japan, no thanks it's a bit expensive and you speak funny, sorry but I believe the world should be doing their bit.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

jp5 said:



			There isn't a housing shortage in this country.
		
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  That statement is as misleading as the ones in the press, there is a massive shortage of the right kind of housing.   You could house a lot of people if you demanded people used their spare rooms to take in lodgers but would you be happy with that?     There are very large waiting lists for council/housing association houses and no sign of that improving.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So your house is destroyed, your life is on the line, your running with your family and you're going to say to Japan, no thanks it's a bit expensive and you speak funny, sorry but I believe the world should be doing their bit.
		
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the truth is refugees and other migrants usually have an idea of where they want to go as it will have some attraction.  Japan may or may not be offering much help - but I'm not sure that as a Syrian refugee Japan would be top of my list - besides being a heck of a trek. Which of course begs the core question about whether a refugee / asylum seeker should have a choice of where to go.


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			That statement is as misleading as the ones in the press, there is a massive shortage of the right kind of housing.   You could house a lot of people if you demanded people used their spare rooms to take in lodgers but would you be happy with that?    * There are very large waiting lists for council/housing association houses and no sign of that improving.*

Click to expand...

I wonder why!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			That's clearly not true. 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

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At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I wonder why!
		
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Really!   Don't suppose it's anything to do with numbers of people then?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.
		
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Other than The Netherlands and Belgium, according to that link....


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.
		
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The link doesn't seem to back that ?


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			It was me who quoted the Six Japan took in, it was quoted on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday against 500,000 for German and 300,000 for UK during the same period.
		
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As we are only talking about Asylum seekers now, let's look at the figures. 

In 2014, the UK received 31,945 applications for asylum 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/da...-eu-countries-receive-the-most-asylum-seekers

I believe the figures above are incredibly misleading.


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## Crazyface (Sep 3, 2015)

England is FULL. Jesus it's murder trying to get around my town outside "rush hour" let alone during. And I'm in a pokey small rural place. Our council are given no money so cut back on everything. The immigrants are filling up the schools with their kids, making educating English speaking kids nigh on impossible as the teachers are spending more time teaching the non speaking lot. They gather outside the schools in their various communities speaking their own languages making no attempt to "blend in".  Don't believe me? go and stand outside any school gates and observe. Luckilly, I hope, I'll be long gone when the poo really hits the fan ,and those bleeding heart Liberals, and stupid Labour morons now, will be getting their come uppance.


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.
		
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Incorrect, sir.

And I'd say the housing crisis in particular regions is more to do with the continual lack of new housing. Without the growing population our economy wouldn't be where it is today, the government has failed to provide adequate supply of housing.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.
		
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Belgium (355), Netherlands (411) and Monaco (16,923) would disagree.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			England is FULL. Jesus it's murder trying to get around my town outside "rush hour" let alone during.
		
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Boo hoo! 
I suppose these Asylum seekers should be told this before they even bother trying to escape from certain death in their war torn countries. It would probably put them off. 
Those starving in other countries and those living off $2 per week are probably kept awake at night with this news. 



Crazyface said:



			Our council are given no money so cut back on everything.
		
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All councils are now having to make cuts, not just yours. They are having to be much more accountable for financing and try to run more like a business. This is a good thing as it will reduce frivolous spending. 



Crazyface said:



			The immigrants are filling up the schools with their kids
		
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Who do they think they are coming over here, trying to get an education.... 



Crazyface said:



			They gather outside the schools in their various communities speaking their own languages making no attempt to "blend in".
		
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why should they 'blend in'. do British people overseas learn the language and blend in? Then why is the costa del sol like a foreign Britain selling pints and full english breakfasts whilst the tourists spanish is limited to dos cervezas por favor?!?!



Crazyface said:



			Luckilly, I hope, I'll be long gone when the poo really hits the fan
		
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Fingers crossed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			As we are only talking about Asylum seekers now, let's look at the figures. 

In 2014, the UK received 31,945 applications for asylum 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/da...-eu-countries-receive-the-most-asylum-seekers

I believe the figures above are incredibly misleading.
		
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Well just for balance I live on the edge of a 400sq mile area with a population of around 9 folk per Sq Mile.
And.....at the moment it is still within the UK.
I drove through it the other day and in 30 miles I passed 3 cars and 2 log lorries going south. Nothing passed me going north and I passed nothing.

Full up Britiain, aye right.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-expats-immigrants-migration?CMP=share_btn_fb


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			As we are only talking about Asylum seekers now, let's look at the figures. 

In 2014, the UK received 31,945 applications for asylum 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/da...-eu-countries-receive-the-most-asylum-seekers

I believe the figures above are incredibly misleading.
		
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Please feel free to Contact Jeremy Vine,


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well just for balance I live on the edge of a 400sq mile area with a population of around 9 folk per Sq Mile.
And.....at the moment it is still within the UK.
I drove through it the other day and in 30 miles I passed 3 cars and 2 log lorries going south. Nothing passed me going north and I passed nothing.

Full up Britiain, aye right.
		
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I'm on your side DFT. I never said Britain is full.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Please feel free to Contact Jeremy Vine,
		
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Ok, just did. He said he made it up. It was all for effect.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Please feel free to Contact Jeremy Vine,
		
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Japan

No idea where Vine got the number 6 from but all the stats show it to be false 

2 million immigrants in Japan with net immigration at around 300000 over the last couple years


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.
		
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Note that people born abroad may be British Nationals.

Boris Johnston (New York), Emma Watson (Paris), Bradley Wiggins (Ghent) and many others.

The provision of public services is helped when immigrants are working age wage earners, then they pay tax, probably don't consume much service and help balance the demographic slide towards more retired people than workers. If you want to help public services, get rid of the old people. They are the ones who consume resources.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Ok, just did. He said he made it up. It was all for effect.
		
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Unfortunately he didn't, he got the year year wrong in 2013 Japan granted refugee status to only 6 out of the 3200 applications they recieved and to 11 in 2014.

http://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00107/


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## alexbrownmp (Sep 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Note that people born abroad may be British Nationals.

Boris Johnston (New York), Emma Watson (Paris), Bradley Wiggins (Ghent) and many others.

The provision of public services is helped when immigrants are working age wage earners, then they pay tax, probably don't consume much service and help balance the demographic slide towards more retired people than workers. If you want to help public services, get rid of the old people. They are the ones who consume resources.
		
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absolutely! they have contributed hundreds of thousands of pounds to public services, now they are unable to then we should cast them aside. How do you see that working and can we start with you?


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately he didn't, he got the year year wrong in 2013 Japan granted refugee status to only 6 out of the 3200 applications they recieved and to 11 in 2014.

http://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00107/

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He did get his facts wrong. I pointed out the mistake he made earlier. 

If he is talking about asylum seekers, the figure stated about Japan is correct. But if he is talking about asylum seekers, the figures stated about the UK and Germany are wildly incorrect.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Note that people born abroad may be British Nationals.

Boris Johnston (New York), Emma Watson (Paris), Bradley Wiggins (Ghent) and many others.

The provision of public services is helped when immigrants are working age wage earners, then they pay tax, probably don't consume much service and help balance the demographic slide towards more retired people than workers. If you want to help public services, get rid of the old people. They are the ones who consume resources.
		
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Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.    The people born abroad to British parents are a very small number and are British subjects unless they decide otherwise.  But you know this anyway.

Maybe you could start a list of the Old people we should rid ourselves of.  You know, the ones that have contributed a lifetime of Income Tax and National Insurance and taken nothing for most of their lives.   Yes, thats a great idea.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.    The people born abroad to British parents are a very small number and are British subjects unless they decide otherwise.  But you know this anyway.

Maybe you could start a list of the Old people we should rid ourselves of.  You know, the ones that have contributed a lifetime of Income Tax and National Insurance and taken nothing for most of their lives.   Yes, thats a great idea.
		
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Do you have any links to how many immigrants are low skilled/paying tax/not working?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.    The people born abroad to British parents are a very small number and are British subjects unless they decide otherwise.  But you know this anyway.

Maybe you could start a list of the Old people we should rid ourselves of.  You know, the ones that have contributed a lifetime of Income Tax and National Insurance and taken nothing for most of their lives.   Yes, thats a great idea.
		
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Im sure you are going to provide all the links to the facts to back up the poor educated and low skilled statement


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## Fyldewhite (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.    The people born abroad to British parents are a very small number and are British subjects unless they decide otherwise.  But you know this anyway.

Maybe you could start a list of the Old people we should rid ourselves of.  You know, the ones that have contributed a lifetime of Income Tax and National Insurance and taken nothing for most of their lives.   Yes, thats a great idea.
		
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I really think Ethan's comment was somewhat tongue in cheek to illustrate that with an ageing population we need more input at the working age end to balance the books, and the birth rate is such that immigration is actually desirable in many respects. Many people moving here are indeed poorly educated and low skilled and yes they will hardly be paying mega amounts of tax. It's a bit more complex though isn't it? They work in low skilled jobs for British businesses, they buy goods from British shops and pay British bus/train fares, buy British services etc etc. These businesses wouldn't be as profitable without their work force, and these businesses contribute a fair bit in corporation tax and provide employment to many British people as well. Probably not great example but just saying I think it's a bit more complicated than working out a tax liability of nil therefore zero contribution.....

Then of course there are also the large numbers that are skilled and contribute plenty in a more tangible way.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.
		
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what does this statement really mean? 

'Many people' ... how many? this is such a generic statement. 
Can you provide any facts to back any of this up? 

'Low skilled and poorly educated' ... Can you provide any facts to back this up as well? 

'many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid' ... any facts for this as well? 


Everything you have said is just a generic statement on what you believe to be the case, without any hard evidence.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			I really think Ethan's comment was somewhat tongue in cheek to illustrate that with an ageing population we need more input at the working age end to balance the books, and the birth rate is such that immigration is actually desirable in many respects. Many people moving here are indeed poorly educated and low skilled and yes they will hardly be paying mega amounts of tax. It's a bit more complex though isn't it? They work in low skilled jobs for British businesses, they buy goods from British shops and pay British bus/train fares, buy British services etc etc. These businesses wouldn't be as profitable without their work force, and these businesses contribute a fair bit in corporation tax and provide employment to many British people as well. Probably not great example but just saying I think it's a bit more complicated than working out a tax liability of nil therefore zero contribution.....

Then of course there are also the large numbers that are skilled and contribute plenty in a more tangible way.
		
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A great point, and one I have been trying to make for the last 12 months, although not as eloquently as the above.


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## Crazyface (Sep 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Do you have any links to how many immigrants are low skilled/paying tax/not working?
		
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If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Oh dear


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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My grandparents couldn't speak English when they fled Germany after WW2. Maybe they should have been turned away? Plenty tried. My grandmother was physically and mentally abused when travelling from London to Manchester on the train. She was spat at, kicked and shoved. I thought we'd moved on from that. Thanks for educating me.


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## londonlewis (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Because they are human beings and they need help. Are you heartless? 




Crazyface said:



			Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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there's a load of young Brits who can't speak English properly either, should we chuck them out as well?


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Whoa! Easy tiger, think of your blood pressure... do you want them to stay where they are and be raped/murdered etc? Think about what would force you out of your home, your home country and to make a perilous journey? It surely wouldn't be kids egging your front door eh?


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## Fyldewhite (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Hmmmm, so all the exiled Jews in the 30's 40's were just thick then?  Hell, I'm proud to be British when I read stuff like this.


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## vkurup (Sep 3, 2015)

I think there are 2 issues at play... they are connected and have overlaps, but they are different.

1) Can Briton sustain the level of immigration?  
2) There current 'influx' while resulting in immigration, is actually a bigger humanitarian crisis that the world needs to address. It is not just a European (or UK) problem, but something that the world needs to do some thing about.  Iceland, Sweden etc are taking on more people.  The middle east countries are conspicuous by their silence.  

Re the first question, Immigration is a constant reality in the world and is a two directional thing.  Britons go to Spain while the Spanish want to come here.  Free movement of EU national is part of the deal with us being the EU.  If you ignore the current Syrian crisis, Immigration from non-EU is very tough. International students pay a lot of money to come and study here and have no access to benefits or jobs here (despite what the Sun claims), while professionals have to earn more than the national average to be part of the system (Nurses >Â£35K rule).  

As the world population grows, people migrate between countries or from rural to urban areas and this is leading to societies changing in composition. There is no running away from it.  We could choose to vote ourseleves out of the EU and stop all migration from non-EU.  But such an iron curtain will also stop British people, business and the overall economy from the benefits of travel and growth - both of which far outweigh the downside of immigration.  </end of brain dump>


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Despicable comments. Have a word with yourself.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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As much as I don't like rubbish shows like the xfactor, I would pay good money to put people like yourself on an island with a load of refugees/immigrants. We could then vote on which people we wanted back in the country. (Hint, I don't think you'd make the cut)


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Note that people born abroad may be British Nationals.

Boris Johnston (New York), Emma Watson (Paris), Bradley Wiggins (Ghent) and many others.

The provision of public services is helped when immigrants are working age wage earners, then they pay tax, probably don't consume much service and help balance the demographic slide towards more retired people than workers. If you want to help public services, get rid of the old people. They are the ones who consume resources.
		
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May be tongue in cheek Ethan but as an 'old' person who has contributed significantly over the years into the system, I object. There is a lot of carp talked about the 'old' soaking up benefits etc.
In reality most of my age group did exceptionally well financially and have provided for themselves far more adeptly than any subsequent generation may be able to.
I still pay a significant amount of UK tax, despite having been retired since I was 52. I have also funded myself privately, for the various nips and tucks that old age requires, to avoid the pitiful waiting lists of our third world state services. In the main the same is true amongst a significant number of my peers.

Just glad I am also able to avoid all this UK migrant nonsense,  by migrating myself to spend my ill gotten in a country that still values its identity.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			As much as I don't like rubbish shows like the xfactor, I would pay good money to put people like yourself on an island with a load of refugees/immigrants. We could then vote on which people we wanted back in the country. (Hint, I don't think you'd make the cut)
		
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So, a guy makes a comment, that is quite typical about the fears a lot of people have  about the type of migrant we may be obliged to take in - and you decide to personally attack him!!!!!

I thought there was a code of conduct in here?  :angry:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			So, a guy makes a comment, that is quite typical about the fears a lot of people have  about the type of migrant we may be obliged to take in - and you decide to personally attack him!!!!!

I thought there was a code of conduct in here?  :angry:
		
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The comments crazyface has made is an uneducated disgrace and you want to make a point against someone else, give your head a shake!


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			So, a guy makes a comment, that is quite typical about the fears a lot of people have  about the type of migrant we may be obliged to take in - and you decide to personally attack him!!!!!

I thought there was a code of conduct in here?  :angry:
		
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Your GM mates comment was fairly stupid though.. I admire your defence of your friend though....


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this or why you felt it was important to write in the first place? 

It's impossible to reason with you Tashy, you've obviously decided that the EU has nothing to offer you. What do you have to offer the EU?
		
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Firstly what I had ( note had, not have ) was 36 years labour in coal mines with a few more left but that choice was taken away. Not a single penny claimed in unemployment benefit and not a penny claimed since retiring 3 weeks ago in Jobseeker's Allowance as I now claim a pension. I could be wrong but a large lump of my contributions went to the European Union. My beloved Missis Tash has paid another 35 years tax etc by nursing, she has 18 months left. Me/We collectively the Tash household through my son working as a class one lorry driver and My daughter being a copper in Sheffield city centre ( don't get me started on what she has to deal with re immigration)have given more than our fair share to the EU and what have we got back......

yup up that's tumble weed you can hear. Diddly squat. 

So as a retired fossil I am more than entitled to ask what the EU is doing for me/us. And by that I mean all of us.
 At the very least, I would expect for all the EU countries to get together very very soon and try to get this mess sorted and at least sing from the same song sheet. But guess what Our great European Union cannot agree between themselves what to do. What kind of a Union is that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			If they were highly skilled and intelligent then they would have been able to figure out how to combat the people that are running their country. They aren't, so they are running away. Why should Europe take them in? Do you really want to live in Britain where most can't speak English and wave their own national flag at us????? Well do you?????
		
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Sad and ignorant


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## Aztecs27 (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			My grandparents couldn't speak English when they fled Germany after WW2. Maybe they should have been turned away? Plenty tried. My grandmother was physically and mentally abused when travelling from London to Manchester on the train. She was spat at, kicked and shoved. I thought we'd moved on from that. Thanks for educating me.
		
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I wish we could award 'wisdom' for posts like I can on another forum I frequent. 


Well said, Danny. 

The fact there's still people who think like that is both terrifying and depressing in equal measure.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

Challenge the statements made my posters by all means but what you have done here is exactly what you are accusing the poster of.
You have made a decision about* him*, based on his statement. That is soooooooo wrong and so typical.

The reason we are being well and truly screwed, in this country, is because when people call it what it is, they get pilloried by those that a prone to be 'offended' at every tiny, non-politically correct thing.

We may have an opinion, good or bad and last time I checked, there was not a restriction on that.

Get over it.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Challenge the statements made my posters by all means but what you have done here is exactly what you are accusing the poster of.
You have made a decision about* him*, based on his statement. That is soooooooo wrong and so typical.

The reason we are being well and truly screwed, in this country, is because when people call it what it is, they get pilloried by those that a prone to be 'offended' at every tiny, non-politically correct thing.

We may have an opinion, good or bad and last time I checked, there was not a restriction on that.

Get over it.
		
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You're entitled to hold whatever opinion you want.. I'm entitled to think, and say, that that opinion is wrong/stupid/ignorant/xenophobic etc etc etc.. Don't argue in favour of freedom of speech if you only want it to work in your favour...


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

Here is an opinion of mine.

The sad images of a small child being carried out of the sea, dead were shocking. Questions are being asked about how guilty* we* feel about this state of affairs.

I do not feel guilty, not at all. The child had parents - they should be jailed for life. I would have died to save a child of mine, not the other way round.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Here is an opinion of mine.

The sad images of a small child being carried out of the sea, dead were shocking. Questions are being asked about how guilty* we* feel about this state of affairs.

I do not feel guilty, not at all. The child had parents - they should be jailed for life. I would have died to save a child of mine, not the other way round.
		
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More ignorance, his mother did and died the father tried to save them both and now has to live with himself as he failed,


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I'm on your side DFT. I never said Britain is full.
		
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I was trying to back up your comment, sorry if you misunderstood.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



*More *ignorance, his mother did and died the father tried to save them both and now has to live with himself as he failed,
		
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Sorry, I wasn't aware that I had already been ignorant.

They put their child in danger by attempting the crossing, they knew the risks.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Here is an opinion of mine.

The sad images of a small child being carried out of the sea, dead were shocking. Questions are being asked about how guilty* we* feel about this state of affairs.

I do not feel guilty, not at all. The child had parents - they should be jailed for life. I would have died to save a child of mine, not the other way round.
		
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You know literally nothing about the situation do you?

Enjoy yourself in Australia.. A country that apparently "still has a national identity".. Such a shame that that national identity is not the one of the indigenous population...


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			They put their child in danger by attempting the crossing, they knew the risks.
		
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And not for one second did you think that the risks behind them were more dangerous than the ones in front of them?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			They put their child in danger by attempting the crossing, they knew the risks.
		
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So not an actual answer, just more meaningless words, maybe admitting you got the facts wrong, regardless of how you feel, would of been more fitting.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			You know literally nothing about the situation do you?

Enjoy yourself in Australia.. A country that apparently "still has a national identity".. Such a shame that that national identity is not the one of the indigenous population...
		
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Pathetic, the usual diatribe from simple souls who have probably never been there, just seen a documentary or two.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Pathetic, the usual diatribe from simple souls who have probably never been there, just seen a documentary or two.
		
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Exactly right.. The indigenous population are very very happy...:thup:


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			And not for one second did you think that the risks behind them were more dangerous than the ones in front of them?
		
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I could care more.  :smirk:


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			I could care more.  :smirk:
		
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Good for you.. Compassion isn't for everyone.. At least you admit that it's something you don't have...


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Exactly right.. The indigenous population are very very happy...:thup:
		
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It's been years - things have moved on. No use banging on about stuff that cannot be changed, it happened. 

They also choose who migrates to Australia and by what means. 

Quite a grown up attitude,  in my opinion


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Pathetic, the usual diatribe from simple souls who have probably never been there, just seen a documentary or two.
		
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I've been there, not recognised as people until 1967, last year 1 in 5 Aussies admitted they won't sit next to an aborigine, everyone else in Australia has their roots from an immigrant or convict


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			It's been years - things have moved on. No use banging on about stuff that cannot be changed, it happened. 

They also choose who migrates to Australia and by what means. 

Quite a grown up attitude,  in my opinion

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And with my grown up attitude I find you a very sad person and will not respond again.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			It's been years - things have moved on. No use banging on about stuff that cannot be changed, it happened.
		
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I suppose it's easier to forget and move on when you have all the land, power and money.. Might not be quite so easy for those who have nothing left.. Not grown up enough eh?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

vkurup said:



			I think there are 2 issues at play... they are connected and have overlaps, but they are different.

1) Can Briton sustain the level of immigration?  
2) There current 'influx' while resulting in immigration, is actually a bigger humanitarian crisis that the world needs to address. It is not just a European (or UK) problem, but something that the world needs to do some thing about.  Iceland, Sweden etc are taking on more people.  The middle east countries are conspicuous by their silence.  

Re the first question, Immigration is a constant reality in the world and is a two directional thing.  Britons go to Spain while the Spanish want to come here.  Free movement of EU national is part of the deal with us being the EU.  If you ignore the current Syrian crisis, Immigration from non-EU is very tough. International students pay a lot of money to come and study here and have no access to benefits or jobs here (despite what the Sun claims), while professionals have to earn more than the national average to be part of the system (Nurses >Â£35K rule).  

As the world population grows, people migrate between countries or from rural to urban areas and this is leading to societies changing in composition. There is no running away from it.  *We could choose to vote ourseleves out of the EU and stop all migration from non-EU.  But such an iron curtain will also stop British people, business and the overall economy from the benefits of travel and growth - both of which far outweigh the downside of immigration.  </end of brain dump>*

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Do you honestly believe that if we were out of the EU we would not be able to travel or do business abroad. Do you believe that not being in the EU means we would have no growth in the economy!   Do you really believe that?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I suppose it's easier to forget and move on when you have all the land, power and money.. Might not be quite so easy for those who have nothing left.. Not grown up enough eh?
		
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Dont the Aborigines need all these immigrants to pay for their pensions?


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.   many do work but don't earn enough to contribute a surplus to the exchequer after benefits are paid.    The people born abroad to British parents are a very small number and are British subjects unless they decide otherwise.  But you know this anyway.

Maybe you could start a list of the Old people we should rid ourselves of.  You know, the ones that have contributed a lifetime of Income Tax and National Insurance and taken nothing for most of their lives.   Yes, thats a great idea.
		
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I assumed that my post would be read intelligently. It appears not, so I shall explain.

It was said tongue in cheek. Older people consume more health and social care money, and contribute much less in tax. The demographics of the population are moving from when the NHS was founded when there were approximately 10 million aged over 65 to a position now where there are approximately 16 million and estimated to be 26 million by 2078. This means that there are a much smaller proportion of the population paying tax and NI to fund services for a much larger retired group. It is a simple balancing act and it is getting badly out of balance. The economics are unsustainable, which is why your state pension is slowly disappearing. Even the Tories agree with that bleeding obvious equation. 

And make your mind up. Is everyone a welfare scrounger sitting in front of Sky TV or are they hard working people who contribute NI and tax all their lives and take nothing?. Seems like you have different arguments to fit the debate.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I assumed that my post would be read intelligently. It appears not, so I shall explain.

It was said tongue in cheek. Older people consume more health and social care money, and contribute much less in tax. The demographics of the population are moving from when the NHS was founded when there were approximately 10 million aged over 65 to a position now where there are approximately 16 million and estimated to be 26 million by 2078. This means that there are a much smaller proportion of the population paying tax and NI to fund services for a much larger retired group. It is a simple balancing act and it is getting badly out of balance. The economics are unsustainable, which is why your state pension is slowly disappearing. Even the Tories agree with that bleeding obvious equation. 

And make your mind up. *Is everyone a welfare scrounger* sitting in front of Sky TV or are they hard working people who contribute NI and tax all their lives and take nothing?. Seems like you have different arguments to fit the debate.
		
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Who said that?


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2015)

This idea that old people are a burden because they don't pay their way is a long way from the truth.

Like many of the so-called 'old people' here in the UK I pay a considerable amount of Income Tax out of the already 'taxed' income I managed to save towards my pension. Never taken a days sick pay or unemployment benefit.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

drdel said:



			This idea that old people are a burden because they don't pay their way is a long way from the truth.

Like many of the so-called 'old people' here in the UK I pay a considerable amount of Income Tax out of the already 'taxed' income I managed to save towards my pension. Never taken a days sick pay or unemployment benefit.
		
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I'm another.  We should be ashamed of ourselves      Wasn't our fault our contributions were spent on anything but our pension fund.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

drdel said:



			This idea that old people are a burden because they don't pay their way is a long way from the truth.

Like many of the so-called 'old people' here in the UK I pay a considerable amount of Income Tax out of the already 'taxed' income I managed to save towards my pension. Never taken a days sick pay or unemployment benefit.
		
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Oi, you've pinched my words. &#128513;&#128513;


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			And with my grown up attitude I find you a very sad person and will not respond again.
		
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Good


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Oi, you've pinched my words. &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
		
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Yep, join the clan!

I'm also a grumpy old fart who hates to see the UK squandering money on so-called refugees - genuine immigrants who are prepared to work and integrate have my wholehearted support. Separatists, cheats and liars can go to ****.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

drdel said:



			Yep, join the clan!

I'm also a grumpy old fart who hates to see the UK squandering money on so-called refugees - genuine immigrants who are prepared to work and integrate have my wholehearted support. Separatists, cheats and liars can go to ****.
		
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A genuine question. How do you tell them apart?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			A genuine question. How do you tell them apart?
		
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Ave got facial hair Drdel hasn't. &#128540;r

joking aside, the people that fall into the second category will be the ones who my daughter gives all inclusive residence in her majesty's prison. Unfortunately you don't know which is which until there collars are felt.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 3, 2015)

There seems to be a lot of people on here basing all their arguments on statistics and articles that they have read. You can read pretty much anything into a set of statistics, have you never heard the expression "lies, damm lies and statistics"?

People say Britain isn't full......must be nice living in a green rural area  

Maybe we could build houses on all our golf courses?


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

drive4show said:



			There seems to be a lot of people on here basing all their arguments on statistics and articles that they have read. You can read pretty much anything into a set of statistics, have you never heard the expression "lies, damm lies and statistics"?

People say Britain isn't full......must be nice living in a green rural area  

Maybe we could build houses on all our golf courses?
		
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Only 10% of England is urban development... 2% for Scotland, 4% for Wales.

UK isn't too 'full' to take in people fleeing persecution.


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			A genuine question. How do you tell them apart?
		
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A very simple and good starting indicator is whether they entered to UK legally or not !


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Good for you.. Compassion isn't for everyone.. At least you admit that it's something you don't have...
		
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High ideals eh?

Tell me what have you actually *done*, that makes you more compassionate than me - apart from sitting at a keyboard pontificating.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			High ideals eh?

Tell me what have you actually *done*, that makes you more compassionate than me - apart from sitting at a keyboard pontificating.
		
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Well for a start, I gave a damn. But as you asked. I donated some clothes and blankets to a charity called "The Worldwide Tribe" who are based at the camp in Calais. My sister was there recently to assist in handing out these small mercies.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Only 10% of England is urban development... 2% for Scotland, 4% for Wales.

UK isn't too 'full' to take in people fleeing persecution.
		
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Once again.  We have the highest population per Sq Kl of all the major countries in Europe.   France for example has half of ours.

It's silly to suggest we have plenty of farm land and mountain sides where we can build houses, you know that it's not as simple as that.   Just look at Ireland where they built housing estates in the middle of nowhere that are still empty 10 years later due to there being no infrastructure or jobs to support them.

Are people here suggesting that we should have unrestricted immigration into the UK?   Can anyone that does please explain how this would work?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Well for a start, I gave a damn. But as you asked. I donated some clothes and blankets to a charity called "The Worldwide Tribe" who are based at the camp in Calais. My sister was there recently to assist in handing out these small mercies.
		
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Impressive


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## jp5 (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Once again.  We have the highest population per Sq Kl of all the major countries in Europe.   France for example has half of ours.

It's silly to suggest we have plenty of farm land and mountain sides where we can build houses, you know that it's not as simple as that.   Just look at Ireland where they built housing estates in the middle of nowhere that are still empty 10 years later due to there being no infrastructure or jobs to support them.

Are people here suggesting that we should have unrestricted immigration into the UK?   Can anyone that does please explain how this would work?
		
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Did you miss the part where you were disproved on that first fact?

Plenty more housing could be built, but it would likely pop the housing bubble in the south which is why the government are reluctant to.

Not suggesting unrestricted immigration, am suggesting we could house anyone that needs refuge from wars, persecution, etc.


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## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Impressive   

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Thanks. I really appreciate the thought. Now, isn't there a litter of kittens somewhere that need putting in a sack and throwing in the canal?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Once again.  *We have the highest population per Sq Kl of all the major countries in Europe*.   France for example has half of ours.

It's silly to suggest we have plenty of farm land and mountain sides where we can build houses, you know that it's not as simple as that.   Just look at Ireland where they built housing estates in the middle of nowhere that are still empty 10 years later due to there being no infrastructure or jobs to support them.

Are people here suggesting that we should have unrestricted immigration into the UK?   Can anyone that does please explain how this would work?
		
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Are Belgium and Holland not counted as major then ?

And the Irish housing issue has no relevance - those houses would be built and lived if the financial crisis hadnt happened and the issues with the Euro

And i dont recall anyone suggesting unrestricted immigration


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are Belgium and Holland not counted as major then ?

And the Irish housing issue has no relevance - those houses would be built and lived if the financial crisis hadnt happened and the issues with the Euro

And i dont recall anyone suggesting unrestricted immigration
		
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Belgium and Holland are very small countries.   Monaco probably has the highest population per sq kl but thats not apples for apples is it?

If people dont suggest unrestricted then what do they suggest then?   I keep hearing people saying we have plenty of room and immigrants make us better off, so should there be a limit or open doors?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 3, 2015)

So, we take in all these refugees from war torn areas, what happens when those areas are stabilised? They all go back?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Did you miss the part where you were disproved on that first fact?

Plenty more housing could be built, but it would likely pop the housing bubble in the south which is why the government are reluctant to.

Not suggesting unrestricted immigration, am suggesting we could house anyone that needs refuge from wars, persecution, etc.
		
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Yes, I must have missed it.    So where does the money come from to build all these houses?  What about the schools, hospitals, Doctors Surgeries, Water, Gas, Electricity, Sewage treatment and so on and so forth.   It cant be ignored.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Belgium and Holland are very small countries.   Monaco probably has the highest population per sq kl but thats not apples for apples is it?

If people dont suggest unrestricted then what do they suggest then?   I keep hearing people saying we have plenty of room and immigrants make us better off, so should there be a limit or open doors?
		
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You said "major" - so I'll ask again - are Belgium and Holland not "major" countries or are you just adjusting lines after you statements were found to be factually incorrect 

No idea on limits - people paid more than me will decide that but I have no issue with our immigration as long as they come to fully partake in being a part of this country and contribute to it


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You said "major" - so I'll ask again - are Belgium and Holland not "major" countries or are you just adjusting lines after you statements were found to be factually incorrect 

No idea on limits - people paid more than me will decide that but I have no issue with our immigration as long as they come to fully partake in being a part of this country and contribute to it
		
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Then I will reply again and hope you can keep up. I reffered to population per sq kl for major countries.   Major refers to large countries, you cant compare Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc with small countries like Belgium or the Netherlands in this respect.  If you did that then Jersey, Gibraltar, Monaco, Liechtenstein and Malta would be the most densely populated countries.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I reffered to population per sq kl for major countries.   Major reefers to large countries, you cant compare Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc with small countries like Belgium or the Netherlands in this respect.
		
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So it's all about size of the country then ? Population or land size ?

Seems it's whatever suits your argument as opposed to facts 

Both Holland and Belgium are major countries with Europe


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's all about size of the country then ? Population or land size ?

Seems it's whatever suits your argument as opposed to facts 

Both Holland and Belgium are major countries with Europe
		
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Population per Sq Kl  

You don't seem capable of following the point and I have tried to make it as simple as possible for you, so not much point in trying further.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 3, 2015)

Thank god I lived through times, where in the main, unpalatable decisions were not made by bleeding heart 'liberals'. 

Sometimes tough options have to be taken and I sincerely believe that if the UK is allowed to be the preferred milk cow for every migrant from each war torn cesspit of vile and violent humanity, then we will get what we deserve.

I can foresee a time when your kids / grandkids will perhaps be having to do the same thing. Though I doubt there will be any reciprocal charitable nation to take them when they are fleeing. It seems very much a one way street.

Shame


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Population per Sq Kl  

You don't seem capable of following the point and I have tried to make it as simple as possible for you, so not much point in trying further.
		
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well this was your post



SocketRocket said:



			At 256 people per Sq Km we are the highest populated major country in Europe.
		
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Now the issue i have with is your use of the word "major" - there is no real definition or clear boundaries - i count bother Belgium and Holland as major countries in Europe regardless of their size

The Uk has lots of space for further housing an amenities - plenty of space 

Now we just need some facts to back up your statements in post 127 - especially  *Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.*


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Thank god I lived through times, where in the main, unpalatable decisions were not made by bleeding heart 'liberals'. 

Sometimes tough options have to be taken and I sincerely believe that if the UK is allowed to be the preferred milk cow for every migrant from each war torn cesspit of vile and violent humanity, then we will get what we deserve.

I can foresee a time when your kids will perhaps be having to do the same thing.
		
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What tough options should be taken ? So far a number of countries within Europe take more immigrants than we do

Should the country let those people in those vile countries rot in their own cesspit ? Or should we show our fellow human beings the compassion they deserve

Im guessing you didnt mind the people immigrating here after WW2 or through the 60.s and 70's ?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			well this was your post



Now the issue i have with is your use of the word "major" - there is no real definition or clear boundaries - i count bother Belgium and Holland as major countries in Europe regardless of their size

The Uk has lots of space for further housing an amenities - plenty of space 

Now we just need some facts to back up your statements in post 127 - especially  *Many people immigrating to the Uk are low skilled and poorly educated.*

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The Netherlands and Belgium are small land masses with populations of around 11 and 14 million people.   They are not major European populations or land masses.   Hopefully you can understand that.

I base my statements on the skills of many immigrants by my experiences.   There are many who do low paid manual work and have come from countries with poor educational facilities.   They have an effect of pulling down wages for the lower paid as they are prepared to work for anything better than what they could get in their own countries.   Of course there are many skilled and professional people coming to the UK  but they are not the majority.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The Netherlands and Belgium are small land masses with populations of around 11 and 14 million people.   They are not major European populations or land masses.   Hopefully you can understand that.

I base my statements on the skills of many immigrants by my experiences.   There are many who do low paid manual work and have come from countries with poor educational facilities.   They have an effect of pulling down wages for the lower paid as they are prepared to work for anything better than what they could get in their own countries.   Of course there are many skilled and professional people coming to the UK  but they are not the majority.
		
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As I said you didn't mention population or land mass in your original statement and it's just moving the boundaries really 

And as for the last paragraph is there facts or figures to provide the basis for such a statement ? Using words like "many" doesn't really quantify actual numbers does it - it's more of a cop out because you can't really provide the factual basis to put numbers to words like "many" and "majority"


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said you didn't mention population or land mass in your original statement and it's just moving the boundaries really 

And as for the last paragraph is there facts or figures to provide the basis for such a statement ? Using words like "many" doesn't really quantify actual numbers does it - it's more of a cop out because you can't really provide the factual basis to put numbers to words like "many" and "majority"
		
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I said Population per Sq Kl.   You dont seem to be able to grasp that.

I cant be bothered.  If I gave supporting data you just say it's biased as you have before. I told you it's based on my own experiences so these are my facts, regarding figures, I don't need them, if you feel my experiences are imaginings then prove it, show me facts and figures than prove my experiences incorrect.    I see immigrant labour working in farm fields picking fruit and vegetables, I see them working as shop assistants, I see them as cleaners, working in food production factories, driving taxis, hotel work, bars, supermarkets, cafes, and so on. These are low paid jobs and carried out in the main by people who have come from countries with poor academic standards.

Now, show me how you disprove what I am saying.  Or are you accusing me of telling lies?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I said Population per Sq Kl.   You dont seem to be able to grasp that.

I cant be bothered.  If I gave supporting data you just say it's biased as you have before. I told you it's based on my own experiences so these are my facts, regarding figures, I don't need them, if you feel my experiences are imaginings then prove it, show me facts and figures than prove my experiences incorrect.    I see immigrant labour working in farm fields picking fruit and vegetables, I see them working as shop assistants, I see them as cleaners, working in food production factories, driving taxis, hotel work, bars, supermarkets, cafes, and so on. These are low paid jobs and carried out in the main by people who have come from countries with poor academic standards.

Now, show me how you disprove what I am saying.  Or are you accusing me of telling lies?
		
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Then provide the statical data to back up these statements that you keep posting as facts - as you say there are around 8 mil immigrants in the UK - so you must have seen a lot of them if you are using your own expirences as facts when using words like many and majority. 

I grasp fully that you will stretch any boundary to fit in within obvious clear detest of immigrants - it's a recurring theme with you that has been clear since the first time I read a political thread on here and your clear delight at the policy of UKIP 

You keep posting you distaste for immigration but unless I have missed something I don't recall you coming up with a solution to help our fellow human beings


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2015)

Having read this thread through I think that on balance I'd rather be a 'bleeding heart liberal' than a 'cold callous illiberal ('illiberal' only used as I couldn't post the usual descriptive noun used with cold and callous).  So wanna call me a bleeding heart liberal  - fair enough.


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## Fish (Sep 4, 2015)

Anyone need a caddie :smirk:


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

Well this debate took a completely unexpected path.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 4, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Only 10% of England is urban development... 2% for Scotland, 4% for Wales.

UK isn't too 'full' to take in people fleeing persecution.
		
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There may be the physical space for more people but there certainly isn't enough slack in the infrastructure. These people would need houses to live in, hospital beds, schools to educate the children, jobs and roads to drive their cars on. How long do you think it would take to get all that in place and where is the funding going to come from?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			There may be the physical space for more people but there certainly isn't enough slack in the infrastructure. These people would need houses to live in, hospital beds, schools to educate the children, jobs and roads to drive their cars on. How long do you think it would take to get all that in place and where is the funding going to come from?
		
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Perhaps our hapless leaders should invest in rural areas within the UK rather than continue to turn south of Watford into one large overcrowded, dirty, snagged up metropolitan hell.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 4, 2015)

Having read through the post from front to back, agree with a lot and disagree with a lot. 
Recent reading seems to be a lot about skills or lack of, that will be Brought into the UK. The general feeling will be that a lot will be unskilled helping to lower wages in this country. However would it be more of a problem if the masses that come were skilled workers ?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps our hapless leaders should invest in rural areas within the UK rather than continue to turn south of Watford into one large overcrowded, dirty, snagged up metropolitan hell.
		
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I think there's something in this, although it's much more complicated that your statement suggests. London does suck in a huge amount of people and attracts much more investment (public and private) than other parts of the country. It'd be beneficial in many regards, not just population density, if the wealth could be spread more evenly around the country but it's a rather complicated business ecosystem and would take much more than government action to transform things.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 4, 2015)

A picture in the press today of a Syrian 'refugee' in Hungary dragging his wife and child onto the rail tracks.

Take a close look at the guy putting his family in harms way and ask yourself if you would be really comfortable to accept him, without screening, into Britain?


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## jp5 (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			There may be the physical space for more people but there certainly isn't enough slack in the infrastructure. These people would need houses to live in, hospital beds, schools to educate the children, jobs and roads to drive their cars on. How long do you think it would take to get all that in place and where is the funding going to come from?
		
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Not making cuts to these services would be a start. Perhaps even investing in them at a time of record interest lows.


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			A picture in the press today of a Syrian 'refugee' in Hungary dragging his wife and child onto the rail tracks.

Take a close look at the guy putting his family in harms way and ask yourself if you would be really comfortable to accept him, without screening, into Britain?
		
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Yep seen it, I also notice the media now seem to be pushing the old "women and children first" card on the tv now whereas a few weeks ago it was just single males in France getting the coverage.
I'm undecided on all of this, part of me thinks yes, they are in trouble so we should help them out, but on the other hand our country is swamped enough as it is, we have thousands of homeless people who cannot find a roof over their head so how are we going to house thousands more.
All this getting away from the tyranny of Syria business, well they are safe in Turkey, Greece, Albania, Hungary aren't they? Why do they want to continue and get to Germany or the UK unless they're after the free lifestyle we seem to be offering them?
I bet most of them don't want to go back should the situation in Syria improve!


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Challenge the statements made my posters by all means but what you have done here is exactly what you are accusing the poster of.
You have made a decision about* him*, based on his statement. That is soooooooo wrong and so typical.

The reason we are being well and truly screwed, in this country, is because when people call it what it is, they get pilloried by those that a prone to be 'offended' at every tiny, non-politically correct thing.

We may have an opinion, good or bad and last time I checked, there was not a restriction on that.

Get over it.
		
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I don't think anyone was offended by it being politically incorrect. 

He made a decision about every immigrant coming in to this country. You are being pretty hypocritical aren't you. 
I am astounded that you have come to his rescue.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Firstly what I had ( note had, not have ) was 36 years labour in coal mines with a few more left but that choice was taken away. Not a single penny claimed in unemployment benefit and not a penny claimed since retiring 3 weeks ago in Jobseeker's Allowance as I now claim a pension. I could be wrong but a large lump of my contributions went to the European Union. My beloved Missis Tash has paid another 35 years tax etc by nursing, she has 18 months left. Me/We collectively the Tash household through my son working as a class one lorry driver and My daughter being a copper in Sheffield city centre ( don't get me started on what she has to deal with re immigration)have given more than our fair share to the EU and what have we got back......

yup up that's tumble weed you can hear. Diddly squat. 

So as a retired fossil I am more than entitled to ask what the EU is doing for me/us. And by that I mean all of us.
 At the very least, I would expect for all the EU countries to get together very very soon and try to get this mess sorted and at least sing from the same song sheet. But guess what Our great European Union cannot agree between themselves what to do. What kind of a Union is that.
		
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And people say the younger generation believe themselves to be entitled.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Here is an opinion of mine.

The sad images of a small child being carried out of the sea, dead were shocking. Questions are being asked about how guilty* we* feel about this state of affairs.

I do not feel guilty, not at all. The child had parents - they should be jailed for life. I would have died to save a child of mine, not the other way round.
		
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Jesus Christ.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was trying to back up your comment, sorry if you misunderstood.
		
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Cheers mate, I did!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think there's something in this, although it's much more complicated that your statement suggests. London does suck in a huge amount of people and attracts much more investment (public and private) than other parts of the country. It'd be beneficial in many regards, not just population density, if the wealth could be spread more evenly around the country but it's a rather complicated business ecosystem and would take much more than government action to transform things.
		
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New Towns like Milton Keynes, Livingston and Swindon seem to have worked well.
They put the road structure in first and there is always room to expand.
All close to a motorway network.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			High ideals eh?

Tell me what have you actually *done*, that makes you more compassionate than me - apart from sitting at a keyboard pontificating.
		
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you don't *do *compassion. You *have *&#8203;compassion.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



*Belgium and Holland are very small countries.*   Monaco probably has the highest population per sq kl but thats not apples for apples is it?

If people dont suggest unrestricted then what do they suggest then?   I keep hearing people saying we have plenty of room and immigrants make us better off, so should there be a limit or open doors?
		
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Unbelievable. Your ability to gloss over any and all facts is incredible. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I must have missed it.    So where does the money come from to build all these houses?  What about the schools, hospitals, Doctors Surgeries, Water, Gas, Electricity, Sewage treatment and so on and so forth.   It cant be ignored.
		
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Given that we are the 6th richest country in the world, I would certainly hope we would be in a better position than most countries to help.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			A picture in the press today of a Syrian 'refugee' in Hungary dragging his wife and child onto the rail tracks.

Take a close look at the guy putting his family in harms way and ask yourself *if you would be really comfortable to accept him, without screening, *into Britain?
		
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I hope for your sake the Aussies are not thinking the same thing....


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I said Population per Sq Kl.   You dont seem to be able to grasp that.

I cant be bothered.  If I gave supporting data you just say it's biased as you have before. I told you it's based on my own experiences so these are my facts, regarding figures, I don't need them, if you feel my experiences are imaginings then prove it, show me facts and figures than prove my experiences incorrect.    I see immigrant labour working in farm fields picking fruit and vegetables, I see them working as shop assistants, I see them as cleaners, working in food production factories, driving taxis, hotel work, bars, supermarkets, cafes, and so on. These are low paid jobs and carried out in the main by people who have come from countries with poor academic standards.

Now, show me how you disprove what I am saying.  Or are you accusing me of telling lies?
		
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This is probably the best answer you have written because it shows us all that we are wasting our time discussing this with you. 
You've admitted to not needing any facts and that you consider your opinions to be facts. They are not. They are only opinions and based on the vast amount you have shared, they are poorly formed. 

You ask us to share facts and figures that prove you incorrect. We keep doing that but you keep ignoring them.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			There may be the physical space for more people but there certainly isn't enough slack in the infrastructure. These people would need houses to live in, hospital beds, schools to educate the children, jobs and roads to drive their cars on. How long do you think it would take to get all that in place and where is the funding going to come from?
		
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why would they have a hospital bed in their house?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			you don't *do *compassion. You *have *&#8203;compassion.
		
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Fine, I agree, let's be compassionate but do exactly what Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait are doing about it.

= *0*


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Fine, I agree, let's be compassionate but do exactly what Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait are doing about it.

= *0*

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but the way those countries treat people they deem to be beneath them is appalling. The death rate in the construction industry in these countries is horrific. 

I will thank my lucky stars that we don't have people like you in power.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then provide the statical data to back up these statements that you keep posting as facts - as you say there are around 8 mil immigrants in the UK - so you must have seen a lot of them if you are using your own expirences as facts when using words like many and majority. 

I grasp fully that you will stretch any boundary to fit in within obvious clear detest of immigrants - it's a recurring theme with you that has been clear since the first time I read a political thread on here and your clear delight at the policy of UKIP 

You keep posting you distaste for immigration but unless I have missed something I don't recall you coming up with a solution to help our fellow human beings
		
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A solution. Heres one.     Reduce the number of legal immigrants we take into the UK from countries that are not war zones and increase the number from places like syria.    We cant take them all.


Regarding your other comments.  You just dont read whats being said and keep repeating the same old balderdash.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

OK, the spread on how many more posts before this thread is closed is currently 6.6-7.8  You buying or selling?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I'm sorry but the way those countries treat people they deem to be beneath them is appalling. The death rate in the construction industry in these countries is horrific. 

I will thank my lucky stars that we don't have people like you in power.
		
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There are times when you will need us, people like me, my father and others no longer with us. 

While you conscientiously object, we will protect you, don't worry.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			There are times when you will need us, people like me, my father and others no longer with us. 

While you conscientiously object, we will protect you, don't worry.   

Click to expand...

I will respond once more, don't you dare speak on behalf of all forces and personnel who do their bit, I'm still serving in the Army after 37 years and my father served in WWII he would be and I am disgusted with your opinions.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			A solution. Heres one.     Reduce the number of legal immigrants we take into the UK from countries that are not war zones and increase the number from places like syria.    We cant take them all.


Regarding your other comments.  You just dont read whats being said and keep repeating the same old balderdash.
		
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Hahahahah, you're hilarious. 



SocketRocket said:



			keep repeating the same old balderdash.
		
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you keep banging on about the UK being the most densely populated major country, when it isn't and we've proved it. 

How about this. At 256 people per square km, the UK is the most densely populated major country in the EU with a population size between 60-70 million and of countries beginning with a U and ending in K.

we will all agree with you then.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			There are times when you will need us, people like me, my father and others no longer with us. 

While you conscientiously object, we will protect you, don't worry.   

Click to expand...

no thank you


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

What is londonlewis conscientiously objecting to?

Did I miss that bit?

I don't think this thread has gone the way the OP intended:lol:


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Hahahahah, you're hilarious. 



you keep banging on about the UK being the most densely populated major country, when it isn't and we've proved it. 

How about this. At 256 people per square km, the UK is the most densely populated major country in the EU with a population size between 60-70 million and of countries beginning with a U and ending in K.

we will all agree with you then.
		
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I thought it ended with an "m"


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## Crazyface (Sep 4, 2015)

Then you will die by the sheer weight of hand waving, head hitting fanatics that are currently chanting and screaming in a Budapest train station. And you want them here in England????? Send 'em all to the Highlands of Scotland, there's a very nice lady in charge up there, who is very compassionate. There's loads of room up there. Oh and get that bloomin' wall built sharpish.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 4, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			Then you will die by the sheer weight of hand waving, head hitting fanatics that are currently chanting and screaming in a Budapest train station. And you want them here in England????? Send 'em all to the Highlands of Scotland, there's a very nice lady in charge up there, who is very compassionate. There's loads of room up there. Oh and get that bloomin' wall built sharpish.
		
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All one country, thank you very much. I'm not actually sure what a hand waving, head hitting fanatic is, and i'm not sure I want to know.

I also don't know why the weight of them will cause me to die. Will I be safe if I just don't let them sit on me?


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What is londonlewis conscientiously objecting to?

Did I miss that bit?

I don't think this thread has gone the way the OP intended:lol:
		
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I was rejecting The Green Fairy's help. Now and forever. 

The OP is SocketRocket. Based on his ability to change the subject, I am not sure if he knows what his intentions were.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What is londonlewis conscientiously objecting to?

Did I miss that bit?

*I don't think this thread has gone the way the OP intended:lol:*

Click to expand...

Really?  I mean who could possibly have foreseen a thread on immigration on this board would have descended to us squabbling, bickering, like children, I mean what's happening to us, we never used to be like this? Rick would be turning in his grave.....


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I'm sorry *but the way those countries treat people they deem to be beneath them is appalling*. The death rate in the construction industry in these countries is horrific. 

I will thank my lucky stars that we don't have people like you in power.
		
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You sound as bigoted as me, been there have you?

These refugees are from where? Similar country maybe? Are they fleeing because they are the other side of the same coin, just on the losing side? 

Lost a bit of compassion when I heard, allegedly, that the refugees  had declined food aid from the Red Cross, because it was not halal certified.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			Then you will die by the sheer weight of *hand waving, head hitting fanatics that are currently chanting and screaming *in a Budapest train station. And you want them here in England????? Send 'em all to the Highlands of Scotland, there's a very nice lady in charge up there, who is very compassionate. There's loads of room up there. Oh and get that bloomin' wall built sharpish.
		
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I tend not to judge someone on how they express their emotions - especially those who has come from a different culture.  Besides - as you describe them they sound just like Scottish football fans in Georgia in their 'skirts and woolie hats' - how odd are they...?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			You sound as bigoted as me, been there have you?

These refugees are from where? Similar country maybe? Are they fleeing because they are the other side of the same coin, just on the losing side? 

Lost a bit of compassion when I heard, allegedly, that the refugees  had declined food aid from the Red Cross, because it was not halal certified.
		
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I know, I lost my compassion when I also heard, '_allegedly_' (but to be honest I never let the fact that there is no evidence for it whatsoever bother me, as long as it backs up my inbuilt ingrained prejudices then that's good enough) that they also eat their babies.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			You sound as bigoted as me, been there have you?
		
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/03/qatar-world-cup-deaths_n_7500920.html

Look at the facts... 

I wasn't talking about refugees. I was talking about people working in the construction industry. Did you read the whole of my previous post. 
Your ignorance of world events is astonishing. 



The Green Fairy said:



			declined food aid from the Red Cross, because it was not halal certified.
		
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It's against their religion. 
Your ignorance of other cultures is similarly astonishing.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/03/qatar-world-cup-deaths_n_7500920.html

Look at the facts... 

I wasn't talking about refugees. I was talking about people working in the construction industry. Did you read the whole of my previous post. 
Your ignorance of world events is astonishing. 



It's against their religion. 
Your ignorance of other cultures is similarly astonishing.
		
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Actually, it is not, in times of crisis. Your knowledge is likewise.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I was rejecting The Green Fairy's help. Now and forever. 

The OP is SocketRocket. Based on his ability to change the subject, I am not sure if he knows what his intentions were.
		
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Thanks, got that now.
Is he a one man army then? He has not chosen a good name if he is.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Actually, it is not, in times of crisis. Your knowledge is likewise.
		
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Thank you.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			And people say the younger generation believe themselves to be entitled.
		
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Entitled to what exactly. I am entitled to nothing. You get out what you put in that's what I was taught from my parents and grandparents. And it's what I teach my kids, and grand kids. People who I taught through St Johns ambulance brigade in my own free time I taught them the same.It was something that you were taught when you started working a mile and a half underground two days  after you finished a paper round to earn a few quid coz yer mum could only give you two Bob. 

I am entitled to nothing. 

Except an opinion, and that opinion tells me that your beloved European Union who nobody elected is shambolic when it has come to handling this crisis. Leaving country's to individually "go it alone", when trying to solve this crisis

You may wanna try and stay on topic instead of trying to score brownie points.


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Entitled to what exactly. I am entitled to nothing. You get out what you put in that's what I was taught from my parents and grandparents. And it's what I teach my kids, and grand kids. People who I taught through St Johns ambulance brigade in my own free time I taught them the same.It was something that you were taught when you started working a mile and a half underground two days  after you finished a paper round to earn a few quid coz yer mum could only give you two Bob. 

I am entitled to nothing. 

Except an opinion, and that opinion tells me that your beloved European Union who nobody elected is shambolic when it has come to handling this crisis. Leaving country's to individually "go it alone", when trying to solve this crisis

You may wanna try and stay on topic instead of trying to score brownie points.
		
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It's the way you keep banging on about 'what's the EU ever done for me?' ... like they owe you something. 

Who's got brownies?


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## vkurup (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe that if we were out of the EU we would not be able to travel or do business abroad. Do you believe that not being in the EU means we would have no growth in the economy!   Do you really believe that?
		
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No... I dont think exiting the EU is the end of the world for us.  We existed before and will exist after an exit.  However, it becomes a little harder/inconvenient for us to exist in isolation.   

The impact on people will be minimal and at worst we will need to have visa/passports to travel or work in Europe..  You can argue that we already have to carry passports and we could do a non-visa arrangement.  

The impact on Business is a bit more complicated.  How future trading will be affected is unknown.  A lot of global companies operating out of London base themselves in London as they can be in an English speaking, democratic country AND can access the European markets freely. It *may *become more difficult for this if we are out of the market.  Companies can move HQs out to Lux, Belgium etc.  Some sectors may be better off (e.g. fisheries, agriculture) while others will be badly hit (Financial sectors). The reality is that no one really knows what will happen.  It is a case of known devil v/s unknown angel.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			It's the way you keep banging on about 'what's the EU ever done for me?' ... like they owe you something. 

Who's got brownies?
		
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..and we mustn't forget that with the EU what they fund in the UK that I *don't* use or get any benefit from (or indeed know anything about) enables the UK gov to do stuff that I *do *use and get benefit from.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2015)

vkurup said:



			No... I dont think exiting the EU is the end of the world for us.  We existed before and will exist after an exit.  However, it becomes a little harder/inconvenient for us to exist in isolation.   

The impact on people will be minimal and at worst we will need to have visa/passports to travel or work in Europe..  You can argue that we already have to carry passports and we could do a non-visa arrangement.  

The impact on Business is a bit more complicated.  How future trading will be affected is unknown.  A lot of global companies operating out of London base themselves in London as they can be in an English speaking, democratic country AND can access the European markets freely. It *may *become more difficult for this if we are out of the market.  Companies can move HQs out to Lux, Belgium etc.  Some sectors may be better off (e.g. fisheries, agriculture) while others will be badly hit (Financial sectors). The reality is that no one really knows what will happen.  It is a case of known devil v/s unknown angel.
		
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It's the Scottish independence debate all over again.  No-one can actually prove anything about what might happen - IN or OUT.  Of course with the Scottish YES/NO - the successful NO campaign is now pointing to the current price of oil as evidence that supports staying IN and contention that Scotland would be much the worse for leaving.  So for LEAVE to mirror YES arguments might be a little dangerous.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			It's the way you keep banging on about 'what's the EU ever done for me?'
		
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So please tell me then, what has the EU provided for me that I wouldn't have had if we had never joined? How much better off am I as a result?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			So please tell me then, *what has the EU provided for me that I wouldn't have had if we had never joined? *How much better off am I as a result?
		
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The aqueduct?  Sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, health?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			It's the way you keep banging on about 'what's the EU ever done for me?' ... like they owe you something. 

Who's got brownies?
		
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Trying to simplify a humanitarian tragedy, these people from war torn countries are trying to get to Europe. For me that makes it an EU problem to deal with.

What you now have is Hungary falling out with Germany because Germany said it will take them. Fair enough to the Germans. But Germany signed up to a treaty as we all did, which says you claim Asylum (for the want of a better word in the first EU country you get to), but now Germany has seen fit to change its mind. How's that work. 
For the record I do not have an issue with any country taking in refugees inc the UK.
The UK said it is taking no more refugees just a few days ago. But it took a harrowing picture for David Cameron to " change his mind " and allow refugees to come to this country. Why ? This crisis has been going on for more than a couple of years. The scenes in which we saw yesterday have been happening in Turkey,Italy and Greece for the last couple of years. If it happened on Brighton or Skegness beach would it be any more harrowing.
 I said a couple of days ago in this blog Britain would give a knee jerk reaction, and it has. How is taking in " a few thousand", helping to solve a long term crisis. 
Whether we are the sixth richest country in the world, have the most populated country in the EU or not. The EU should have every country in the EU around the table and get some kind of action in place to help sort out this humanitarian crisis. We may/ will not all agree with what is decided but at least something will be done.

PS, the EU don't owe me didly squat, and I am not a great lover of it. But and its a massive but, if it can help solve this crisis I may well change my mind and start to feel the EU love.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 4, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			The aqueduct?  Sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, health?
		
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I've seen that film!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			So please tell me then, what has the EU provided for me that I wouldn't have had if we had never joined? How much better off am I as a result?
		
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A lot of development work in the Highlands and Islands such as road improvements, bridges, businesses were EU grant funded. Stuff that Westminster would never have considered.
Farming is massively EU funded, fishing we would probably be better of out of it, but the main Scottish markets are in Europe.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot of development work in the Highlands and Islands such as road improvements, bridges, businesses were EU grant funded. Stuff that Westminster would never have considered.
Farming is massively EU funded, fishing we would probably be better of out of it, but the main Scottish markets are in Europe.
		
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But the fact remains that for it's entire lifetime, the UK has been a nett contributor to the EU so how can anyone say we wouldn't have had these things anyway if we'd stayed out of Europe? We would have had the money to spend on projects here rather than in Ireland, Spain, Portugal etc.


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



*Are the numbers acceptable?* Yes, I think they are. We are living in a growing economy with a sound infrastructure. 
The numbers suggest that 270,000 Brits emigrated. Surely we can't get upset with people coming here, if our populous are doing the same thing. 

*Can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increase?* We haven't had an issue with providing suitable public services with an increasing population previously, so why would it suddenly become a problem now? 

The economy is expected to grow, so that will help us. 
Unemployment is at a low level, which is a positive. 

Housing shortages could be a pretty big issue.

I am pretty confident that Britain will be ok. 



Click to expand...

The roads in my area (outskirts of London) have become more and more congested over the last few years, particularly at school run times. I assume that a fair proportion of the children going to these schools are the kids of the immigrants that New Labour allowed to flood into the country almost without checks a few years ago! The M25 is now often completely stationary in the rush hours. Never even gets mentioned on the radio since the BBC moved to Manchester, as they now only seem concerned about the Motorways up in that part of the country!  Or are traffic jams just normal on the M25 and not considered worth mentioning?  It is clear that our road network down south is not coping with the increasing population.  The same goes for tubes, buses and trains in and around London!  :angry:


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Hahahahah, you're hilarious. 



*you keep banging on about the UK being the most densely populated major country, when it isn't and we've proved it. 
*
How about this. At 256 people per square km, the UK is the most densely populated major country in the EU with a population size between 60-70 million and of countries beginning with a U and ending in K.

we will all agree with you then.
		
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What have you proved exactly and who are the Royal 'We'

If you take Belgium and Holland into account then the Uk is third but I made it quite clear I was not talking about them and comparing us to the larger countries like France, Germany, Italy and Spain.   If you want to dismiss what I have said then so be it but it says little for the Royal 'We'

Another point is that England is by far the highest populated country per sq km in Europe and 5th in the World.   If you remove Scotland which has a large land mass and small population then the situation becomes very different.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 4, 2015)

drive4show said:



			But the fact remains that for it's entire lifetime, the UK has been a nett contributor to the EU so how can anyone say we wouldn't have had these things anyway if we'd stayed out of Europe? We would have had the money to spend on projects here rather than in Ireland, Spain, Portugal etc.
		
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For me the main benefits of EU membership have been more on the social side; human rights, equality, employment rights etc. The UK is a reasonably enlightened place but too often has needed dragged there by the EU.

Of course, there are a number of benefits that are immediately obvious such as cheaper flights and mobile phone charges, or the ability to obtain medical treatment throughout the EU. 

I am personally several hundred pounds better off from that one time BA cancelled my flight and I used EU law to obtain compensation. On that subject, next time your flight gets delayed and your airline has to provide you with food and drink you might consider a wee "thanks" to the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Trying to simplify a humanitarian tragedy, these people from war torn countries are trying to get to Europe. For me that makes it an EU problem to deal with.

What you now have is Hungary falling out with Germany because Germany said it will take them. Fair enough to the Germans. But Germany signed up to a treaty as we all did, which says you claim Asylum (for the want of a better word in the first EU country you get to), but now Germany has seen fit to change its mind. How's that work. 
For the record I do not have an issue with any country taking in refugees inc the UK.
The UK said it is taking no more refugees just a few days ago. But it took a harrowing picture for David Cameron to " change his mind " and allow refugees to come to this country. Why ? This crisis has been going on for more than a couple of years. The scenes in which we saw yesterday have been happening in Turkey,Italy and Greece for the last couple of years. If it happened on Brighton or Skegness beach would it be any more harrowing.
 I said a couple of days ago in this blog Britain would give a knee jerk reaction, and it has. How is taking in " a few thousand", helping to solve a long term crisis. 
Whether we are the sixth richest country in the world, have the most populated country in the EU or not. The EU should have every country in the EU around the table and get some kind of action in place to help sort out this humanitarian crisis. We may/ will not all agree with what is decided but at least something will be done.

PS, the EU don't owe me didly squat, and I am not a great lover of it. But and its a massive but, if it can help solve this crisis I may well change my mind and start to feel the EU love.
		
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Taking refugees only from the transit camps in the middle east is a good idea.   It should help to stop the pull factor in the Med and maybe we wont see so many of these harrowing pictures of drowned people.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			For me the main benefits of EU membership have been more on the social side; human rights, equality, employment rights etc. The UK is a reasonably enlightened place but too often has needed dragged there by the EU.

Of course, there are a number of benefits that are immediately obvious such as cheaper flights and mobile phone charges, or the ability to obtain medical treatment throughout the EU. 

I am personally several hundred pounds better off from that one time BA cancelled my flight and I used EU law to obtain compensation. On that subject, next time your flight gets delayed and your airline has to provide you with food and drink you might consider a wee "thanks" to the EU.
		
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What will I do with all the money they are saving me !


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			The roads in my area (outskirts of London) have become more and more congested over the last few years, particularly at school run times. I assume that a fair proportion of the children going to these schools are the kids of the immigrants that New Labour allowed to flood into the country almost without checks a few years ago! The M25 is now often completely stationary in the rush hours. Never even gets mentioned on the radio since the BBC moved to Manchester, as they now only seem concerned about the Motorways up in that part of the country!  Or are traffic jams just normal on the M25 and not considered worth mentioning?  It is clear that our road network down south is not coping with the increasing population.  The same goes for tubes, buses and trains in and around London!  :angry:
		
Click to expand...

When I was wee, I used to play on the street outside my mum's house. We'd play football, tennis and various ball games. It was a real nuisance when someone had parked a car on the street but relatively unusual. When I visit now it's hard to get parked, cars everywhere. The households of my youth were fortunate enough to own one car but nowadays they now own two, three, four. Playing ball games on that street is impossible now....

Back then I don't recall any immigrants living in the street. Now? Yeah, still none as far as I know.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What will I do with all the money they are saving me !
		
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Donate it to UKIP?


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## londonlewis (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What have you proved exactly and who are the Royal 'We'

If you take Belgium and Holland into account then the Uk is third but I made it quite clear I was not talking about them and comparing us to the larger countries like France, Germany, Italy and Spain.   If you want to dismiss what I have said then so be it but it says little for the Royal 'We'

Another point is that England is by far the highest populated country per sq km in Europe and 5th in the World.   If you remove Scotland which has a large land mass and small population then the situation becomes very different.
		
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The Royal 'we' means 'I'. Are you asking who I am? 

Ok so you only want to compare against 4 other countries. 

*country                                   density (/km2)
*UK                                        255
Germany                                229
France                                  114
Spain                                    91 

An extra 160/140/25 people over the space of a square kilometre is hardly a lot is it. Honestly. 
It hardly makes it sound like we are falling over each other. 

especially when you compare it to other countries (I don't really understand why you wouldn't include other countries outside the EU when trying to argue that we are overcrowded) 

Bangladesh (population size 142m), density 964. 
south Korea (population size 48m), density 487
India (population size 1.2 billion), density 368

So how come these three countries with populations either similar or significantly larger than ours are able to cope with higher and significantly higher population densities? But you suggest that we can't.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Donate it to UKIP?
		
Click to expand...


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			The roads in my area (outskirts of London) have become more and more congested over the last few years, particularly at school run times. I assume that a fair proportion of the children going to these schools are the kids of the immigrants that New Labour allowed to flood into the country almost without checks a few years ago! The M25 is now often completely stationary in the rush hours. Never even gets mentioned on the radio since the BBC moved to Manchester, as they now only seem concerned about the Motorways up in that part of the country!  Or are traffic jams just normal on the M25 and not considered worth mentioning?  It is clear that our road network down south is not coping with the increasing population.  The same goes for tubes, buses and trains in and around London!  :angry:
		
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You know when Farage was late for something or the other before the last election and he then blamed it on the immigrants for clogging up the M4, and just about everyone thought he was a swivel eyed loon.

Just saying..


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			You know when Farage was late for something or the other before the last election and he then blamed it on the immigrants for clogging up the M4, and just about everyone thought he was a swivel eyed loon.

Just saying..
		
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Nigel Farage is a swivel eyed loon!  I might also mention that it takes about 2 weeks to get an appointment with an NHS doctor or dentist around here. Usually by then you have either died or got better!  Many golf courses in the area, particularly municipal ones, are under threat of redevelopment for housing developments to house all these extra people!


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			The aqueduct?  Sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, health?
		
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:rofl:


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			:rofl:
		
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Think that was the Romans, not the Syrians!  :mmm:


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			Think that was the Romans, not the Syrians!  :mmm:
		
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I think we know that. 

I assumed the joke was in the 'what have they done for us' comparison............ach, never mind.


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I think we know that. 

I assumed the joke was in the 'what have they done for us' comparison............ach, never mind. 

Click to expand...

At least the Romans had to fight their way into Britain. They weren't just invited to walk in, as was the case for immigrants under New Labour!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			At least the Romans had to fight their way into Britain. They weren't just invited to walk in, as was the case for immigrants under New Labour!  

Click to expand...

Why are you constantly blaming new labour ? Has immigration stopped since Cameron arrived to power - was immigration around way before Blair arrived in power ?


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			At least the Romans had to fight their way into Britain. They weren't just invited to walk in, as was the case for immigrants under New Labour!  

Click to expand...

Well, maybe they fought their way into England and Wales.........but we kicked their arse, hence the wall.


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Well, maybe they fought their way into England and Wales.........but we kicked their arse, hence the wall.   

Click to expand...

The wall (Hadrian's) was built to keep you lot out!


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			The wall (Hadrian's) was built to keep you lot out!  

Click to expand...

Aye.  Cos we kept on kicking folks arses!


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Aye.  Cos we kept on kicking folks arses!   

Click to expand...

Thought it was more because you kept stealing our cattle!


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			The roads in my area (outskirts of London) have become more and more congested over the last few years, particularly at school run times. I assume that a fair proportion of the children going to these schools are the kids of the immigrants that New Labour allowed to flood into the country almost without checks a few years ago! The M25 is now often completely stationary in the rush hours. Never even gets mentioned on the radio since the BBC moved to Manchester, as they now only seem concerned about the Motorways up in that part of the country!  Or are traffic jams just normal on the M25 and not considered worth mentioning?  It is clear that our road network down south is not coping with the increasing population.  The same goes for tubes, buses and trains in and around London!  :angry:
		
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Road congestion has only a miniscule (if any) relationship with immigration and is almost entirely related to commuter's (including the school run) choices about how and where they get about. The M25 gridlock is a classic demonstration! There's actually significantly more throughput now than there was some years ago, but the congestion is exactly the same - because that's how much the users are *prepared to tolerate*!!


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			Thought it was more because you kept stealing our cattle!  

Click to expand...

More likely to be the sheep.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			More likely to be the sheep.
		
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.....and women.:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Donate it to UKIP?
		
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They wouldn't get much then.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			The Royal 'we' means 'I'. Are you asking who I am? 

Ok so you only want to compare against 4 other countries. 

*country                                   density (/km2)
*UK                                        255
Germany                                229
France                                  114
Spain                                    91 

An extra 160/140/25 people over the space of a square kilometre is hardly a lot is it. Honestly. 
It hardly makes it sound like we are falling over each other. 

especially when you compare it to other countries (I don't really understand why you wouldn't include other countries outside the EU when trying to argue that we are overcrowded) 

Bangladesh (population size 142m), density 964. 
south Korea (population size 48m), density 487
India (population size 1.2 billion), density 368

So how come these three countries with populations either similar or significantly larger than ours are able to cope with higher and significantly higher population densities? But you suggest that we can't.
		
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You said 'We' have answered that.  I just wondered who 'We' were.

Compare England and you will see a different picture.


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## delc (Sep 4, 2015)

Ob



Foxholer said:



			Road congestion has only a miniscule (if any) relationship with immigration and is almost entirely related to commuter's (including the school run) choices about how and where they get about. The M25 gridlock is a classic demonstration! There's actually significantly more throughput now than there was some years ago, but the congestion is exactly the same - because that's how much the users are *prepared to tolerate*!!
		
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There is an amazing difference between term time and school holiday time, so I suspect most of the traffic is generated by the school run! I know that most of the schools in the area are bulging at the seams with children, a lot of whom seem to be the offsprings of recent immigrants.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			Ob
There is an amazing difference between term time and school holiday time, so I suspect most of the traffic is generated by the school run! I know that most of the schools in the area are bulging at the seams with children, a lot of whom seem to be the offsprings of recent immigrants.
		
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I live in what was once statistically the 'whitest most home grown' borough in England.  It's not any more, but like most elderly golfers, I hark back to the 1950s and wish it still was. And I hate to break it to you but there is a vast difference between traffic in term time and holiday time.  Despite the fact that I am pretty sure a lot of it is not caused by recent immigrants.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2015)

Immigrants with cars, wow they must be doing well.

I find it 'interesting' listening to reporters saying either immigrants, migrants or refugees.
I swear one used all three in a two minute report about the same group.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Immigrants with cars, wow they must be doing well.

I find it 'interesting' listening to reporters saying either immigrants, migrants or refugees.
I swear one used all three in a two minute report about the same group.
		
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Immigrants with cars?   He's not talking about asylum seekers..

Syrian  'Refugees'  are trying to 'Migrate' to Germany who have decided to accept more 'immigrants'


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 4, 2015)

delc said:



			I know that most of the schools in the area are bulging at the seams with children,
		
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err..... run that one past me again?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			err..... run that one past me again? 

Click to expand...

I think 'Bulging at the seams' was a clue Fragger.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			A solution. Heres one.     Reduce the number of legal immigrants we take into the UK from countries that are not war zones and increase the number from places like syria.    We cant take them all.
		
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I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we take them all 

So how do you reduce the numbers ? What's the master plan ? Do you cherry pick ? Have a certain number where there is a cut off ? Can you expand on your grand plan to sort out the problem you think there is regarding immigration 



			Regarding your other comments.  You just dont read whats being said and keep repeating the same old balderdash.
		
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it appears you are looking in a mirror with comments like that - are you suggesting that you haven't constantly gone on about immigration over the last couple of years ?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we take them all 

So how do you reduce the numbers ? What's the master plan ? Do you cherry pick ? Have a certain number where there is a cut off ? Can you expand on your grand plan to sort out the problem you think there is regarding immigration 


it appears you are looking in a mirror with comments like that - are you suggesting that you haven't constantly gone on about immigration over the last couple of years ?
		
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It's pretty obvious how you do it.  We cant currently control immigration from the EU but we can from the rest of the world.   We put a cap on these and offer a similar number of genuine refugees these places.   Simples!      It's not a grand plan to sort out immigration but an effort to offer humanitarian assistance to the people of Syria.


Over the last couple of years there have been a number of threads on immigration, most of them not started by me, I may have started one or two, this being one of them.    I have commented on these threads giving my point of view to which I believe I am entitled to.   Would you feel more content if I held the same views as you, or do you take the normal liberal elite left wing view that anyone with a different view are stupid and mentally subnormal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's pretty obvious how you do it.  We cant currently control immigration from the EU but we can from the rest of the world.   We put a cap on these and offer a similar number of genuine refugees these places.   Simples!      It's not a grand plan to sort out immigration but an effort to offer humanitarian assistance to the people of Syria.


Over the last couple of years there have been a number of threads on immigration, most of them not started by me, I may have started one or two, this being one of them.    I have commented on these threads giving my point of view to which I believe I am entitled to.   Would you feel more content if I held the same views as you or do you take the normal liberal elite left wing view that anyone with a different view are stupid and mentally subnormal.
		
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Do we not control migration from outside the EU already then ? Do people from outside the EU not have to jump through hoops to come to the UK ? Do they not come here to work and contribute. What is the cap you want to impose - name a figure ? 

I'm guessing there is a breakdown on the numbers from outside the EU that you can show me which highlights the amount from the EU and outside the EU


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we not control migration from outside the EU already then ? Do people from outside the EU not have to jump through hoops to come to the UK ? Do they not come here to work and contribute. What is the cap you want to impose - name a figure ? 

I'm guessing there is a breakdown on the numbers from outside the EU that you can show me which highlights the amount from the EU and outside the EU
		
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Look up the numbers yourself if you want them.

The cap will be the amount of additional Syrian refugees we take in.   Don't you read posts?

Come on then.  Tell me exactly how we should deal with the situation, how many immigrants we should have in the UK annually.   You like to comment on other people posts but seem very weak on ideas.    Come on surprise me with your insight!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The cap will be the amount of additional Syrian refugees we take in.   Don't you read posts?

Come on then.  Tell me exactly how we should deal with the situation, how many immigrants we should have in the UK annually.   You like to comment on other people posts but seem very weak on ideas.    Come on surprise me with your insight!
		
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So is there a breakdown ? Every time someone asks you to provide some facts to back up the statements you ignore the requests - why is that ? 

You seem to have ignored the crux of what I was asking you ? 

I don't believe there to be a problem so why would I need to come up with ideas ? 

I see no reason why we can't offer funding to help refugees and places within the country for them - which is exactly what we appear to be doing 

I don't see a reason for us to sacrifice other immigrants who arrive to the country with the aim to contribute and build a life here

You see I'm in the opinion that no one owns the land we walk on and people should be able to build a life and a home where they wish


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 4, 2015)

There must be plenty of room in Poland for these poor refugees because all the Poles are over here


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So is there a breakdown ? Every time someone asks you to provide some facts to back up the statements you ignore the requests - why is that ? 

You seem to have ignored the crux of what I was asking you ? 

I don't believe there to be a problem so why would I need to come up with ideas ? 

I see no reason why we can't offer funding to help refugees and places within the country for them - which is exactly what we appear to be doing 

I don't see a reason for us to sacrifice other immigrants who arrive to the country with the aim to contribute and build a life here

You see I'm in the opinion that no one owns the land we walk on and people should be able to build a life and a home where they wish
		
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So you are suggesting open borders and unfettered immigration?


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## c1973 (Sep 4, 2015)

This thread got me thinking of old tv comedy shows.........



Alf Garnett: Well, I mean, see if we go into Europe... 

Else Garnett: I thought we was in Europe. I mean, I thought we always have been. 

Alf Garnett: I know that, yer silly moo. I'm not talking about that aspect am I? I'm talking about the Common Market aspect of the going into Europe. 

Alf Garnett: Old Enoch's against it, in't 'e, eh? He don't want no more bloody foreigners over here. We got enough bloody foreigners here as it is. Bloody country's swarming with Eities and Krauts and Froggies and Spagnollies and Brussel Sprouts. All coming over here and taking our jobs off of us, aren't they? 

Else Garnett: Well, we can go over there and take the jobs off of them. 

Alf Garnett: I don't want to go over there, do I? 

Else Garnett: Wish you would. 



........can't think why.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are suggesting open borders and unfettered immigration?
		
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Nope can't see where I suggest that ?

I see no reason why we as a country cannot do our bit and helping out our fellow humans and continue our current level of immigration


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			This thread got me thinking of old tv comedy shows.........



Alf Garnett: Well, I mean, see if we go into Europe... 

Else Garnett: I thought we was in Europe. I mean, I thought we always have been. 

Alf Garnett: I know that, yer silly moo. I'm not talking about that aspect am I? I'm talking about the Common Market aspect of the going into Europe. 

Alf Garnett: Old Enoch's against it, in't 'e, eh? He don't want no more bloody foreigners over here. We got enough bloody foreigners here as it is. Bloody country's swarming with Eities and Krauts and Froggies and Spagnollies and Brussel Sprouts. All coming over here and taking our jobs off of us, aren't they? 

Else Garnett: Well, we can go over there and take the jobs off of them. 

Alf Garnett: I don't want to go over there, do I? 

Else Garnett: Wish you would. 



........can't think why.    

Click to expand...

Ah! I get it.   Against high levels of immigration = Alf Garnett (bigoted idiot)    For high levels of immigration = Else Garnet (Sensible person)


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope can't see where I suggest that ?

I see no reason why we as a country cannot do our bit and helping out our fellow humans and continue our current level of immigration
		
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When you say* " You see I'm in the opinion that no one owns the land we walk on and people should be able to build a life and a home where they wish"*  does that not mean that anyone who wants to walk upon the land and build a home where they wish, can?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			When you say* " You see I'm in the opinion that no one owns the land we walk on and people should be able to build a life and a home where they wish"*  does that not mean that anyone who wants to walk upon the land and build a home where they wish can?
		
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If they can build a home then yes I have no issue with them coming - ( as opposed to one given to them ) - I'm sure you would be able to understand the clear difference


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they can build a home then yes I have no issue with them coming - ( as opposed to one given to them ) - I'm sure you would be able to understand the clear difference
		
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So you dont approve of giving homes to immigrants or asylum seekers from poor countries?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you dont approve of giving homes to immigrants or asylum seekers from poor countries?
		
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I don't approve of people who look to come to the country purely on the basis of milking society without lifting a finger to help the country work - that also applies to British nationals.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't approve of people who look to come to the country purely on the basis of milking society without lifting a finger to help the country work - that also applies to British nationals.
		
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But Refugees and immigrants from poor countries are not able to build homes for themselves.   Are they 'Milking Society' and are you suggesting we should offer no help to settle them?     You did say *"If they can build a home then yes I have no issue with them coming - ( as opposed to one given to them )"*    Did you not?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But Refugees and immigrants from poor countries are not able to build homes for themselves.   Are they 'Milking Society' and are you suggesting we should offer no help to settle them?     You did say *"If they can build a home then yes I have no issue with them coming - ( as opposed to one given to them )"*    Did you not?
		
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So because someone coming from a poor country that automatically means they have no skills or abilities to be able to gain employment and earn themselves funds to build a home for themselves ?! 

I'm not suggesting anything - my posts are quite clear


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So because someone coming from a poor country that automatically means they have no skills or abilities to be able to gain employment and earn themselves funds to build a home for themselves ?! 

I'm not suggesting anything - my posts are quite clear
		
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No their not!    People coming from a poor country or as a refugee will have no money to buy property or even rent it.  We will need to supply them a home so they have a chance of getting on their feet.   But according to your heartless suggestion they should not come if they expect to be given one.

Shame on you Phil!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			No their not!    People coming from a poor country or as a refugee will have no money to buy property or even rent it.  We will need to supply them a home so they have a chance of getting on their feet.   But according to your heartless suggestion they should not come if they expect to be given one.

Shame on you Phil!
		
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Shame on me ? Sorry can't see why there would be any shame on me unless someone is attempting to twist anything I have said to suit an agenda.

I'll highlight this post again for you to see clearly where my opinion and it's certainly not of the opinion you are trying to suggest I have 



Liverpoolphil said:



			So is there a breakdown ? Every time someone asks you to provide some facts to back up the statements you ignore the requests - why is that ? 

You seem to have ignored the crux of what I was asking you ? 

I don't believe there to be a problem so why would I need to come up with ideas ? 

*I see no reason why we can't offer funding to help refugees and places within the country for them - which is exactly what we appear to be doing *

I don't see a reason for us to sacrifice other immigrants who arrive to the country with the aim to contribute and build a life here

You see I'm in the opinion that no one owns the land we walk on and people should be able to build a life and a home where they wish
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shame on me ? Sorry can't see why there would be any shame on me unless someone is attempting to twist anything I have said to suit an agenda.
		
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Twisting, there's been no twisting Phil.   Are you now backtracking on your statements or do you still believe that anyone can come here as long as they are not expecting to be given a home?   That is what you said, is it not?

It would be awful if someone tried to twist what someone else said to suit an agenda!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Twisting, there's been no twisting Phil.   Are you now backtracking on your statements or *do you still believe that anyone can come here as long as they are not expecting to be given a home?   That is what you said, is it not?*

It would be awful if someone tried to twist what someone else said to suit an agenda!
		
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Can you show me which post that says what you are suggesting please


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you show me which post that says what you are suggesting please
		
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:rofl:   I think I have done that already.

maybe post 296 will ring a bell!


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 5, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Jesus Christ.
		
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Skepticism is where lies stop and the truth begins.

Further details about the 'poor' father of the dead child, who I said was culpable of putting his family in harms way, are emerging from newsfeeds.
It appears he was not fleeing from persecution but had been living in Turkey since 2012. Had already applied for asylum in Canada and been refused. 
Just wanted a 'better' life and      new teeth. 

Risked and lost his family - and we are being made to feel guilty by the media using this imagery?

I stand by my post which condemned him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			:rofl:   I think I have done that already.
		
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No you haven't 

Please point out to me where is it what I have said exactly what you suggest 

As I said in my post where I highlighted 

Immigrants are more than welcome to arrive into the country as they do currently providing they contribute to the country and are able to build their home for themselves 

Refugees ( there is a difference isn't there ) - I see no reason why we can't offer financial aid to areas and offer a roof over their heads 

You have been so busy trying to be smart and clever and trying to out wit me that you fail to read what I posted even when I highlighted the post to 

There is a clear difference between an immigrant and a refugee - and how the country treats them


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Skepticism is where lies stop and the truth begins.

Further details about the 'poor' father of the dead child, who I said was culpable of putting his family in harms way, are emerging from newsfeeds.
It appears he was not fleeing from persecution but had been living in Turkey since 2012. Had already applied for asylum in Canada and been refused. 
Just wanted a 'better' life and      new teeth. 

Risked and lost his family - and we are being made to feel guilty by the media using this imagery?

I stand by my post which condemned him.
		
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Yes that's exactly the attitude to display - all heart and sympathy after a child has passed away - looking to condemn his family for wanting a better life ( I'll ignore the cheap shot about the better teeth because I don't expect a mature adult can seriously come out with such a comment )


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No you haven't 

Please point out to me where is it what I have said exactly what you suggest 

As I said in my post where I highlighted 

Immigrants are more than welcome to arrive into the country as they do currently providing they contribute to the country and are able to build their home for themselves 

Refugees ( there is a difference isn't there ) - I see no reason why we can't offer financial aid to areas and offer a roof over their heads 

You have been so busy trying to be smart and clever and trying to out wit me that you fail to read what I posted even when I highlighted the post to 

There is a clear difference between an immigrant and a refugee - and how the country treats them
		
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Does "Anyone' mean Anyone or do you have a different interpretation for the word that excludes Refugees.    Come on now, you are quick enough to pick up on the semantics of what anyone else posts so maybe you should not make such schoolboy errors yourself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Does "Anyone' mean Anyone or do you have a different interpretation for the word that excludes Refugees.    Come on now, you are quick enough to pick up on the semantics of what anyone else posts so maybe you should not make such schoolboy errors yourself.
		
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You used the word "anyone" 

I believe I suggested twice that we as a country should help the refugees - you are happy to read back through my posts if you so wish


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You used the word "anyone" 

I believe I suggested twice that we as a country should help the refugees - you are happy to read back through my posts if you so wish
		
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You actually used the words "No One"   Stop backtracking and admit you made a mistake.   Everyone does it sometimes including you.


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## c1973 (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! I get it.   Against high levels of immigration = Alf Garnett (bigoted idiot)    For high levels of immigration = Else Garnet (Sensible person)
		
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No offence intended. 'Twas just some light hearted fun.


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes that's exactly the attitude to display - all heart and sympathy after a child has passed away - looking to condemn his family for wanting a better life ( I'll ignore the cheap shot about the better teeth because I don't expect a mature adult can seriously come out with such a comment )
		
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I think the point of his post was to highlight that he (and more than likely many others) wasn't fleeing a warzone at all. They were perfectly safe in Turkey but see the golden ticket of free food, health care, housing etc in more advanced countries. Nowt wrong with immigrating to get a job and make a living to better yourself but I just can't accept the majority of refugees have this in mind.


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## londonlewis (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Look up the numbers yourself if you want them.

The cap will be the amount of additional Syrian refugees we take in.   Don't you read posts?

Come on then.  Tell me exactly how we should deal with the situation, how many immigrants we should have in the UK annually.   You like to comment on other people posts but seem very weak on ideas.    Come on surprise me with your insight!
		
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I can't believe anyone takes you seriously. You are the man that doesn't provide any facts ever or refutes facts that are presented to you and yet you claim others are weak on ideas. 

You are weak on arguments, ideas and opinions. Pretty much everything you say is so poorly formed and so generically thrown out there. It's like you come from a comedy scetch, some old man who keeps saying 'things were better in my day...'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2015)

David Cameron - man of principle.  Go on then Davie boy.  About face.  That's better.  Now tell us that this is what you were going to do all along. Naw?  Never mind.  It's a start.


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## londonlewis (Sep 5, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Skepticism is where lies stop and the truth begins.

Further details about the 'poor' father of the dead child, who I said was culpable of putting his family in harms way, are emerging from newsfeeds.
It appears he was not fleeing from persecution but had been living in Turkey since 2012. Had already applied for asylum in Canada and been refused. 
Just wanted a 'better' life and      new teeth. 

Risked and lost his family - and we are being made to feel guilty by the media using this imagery?

I stand by my post which condemned him.
		
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well the news never lies so it must be true. 

just so I understand green fairy, you basically couldn't care less about that family as you have shared some pretty horrendous views on how you feel and why you feel it. 
what about the boy though? The boy that died and was washed up on the beach. What did he do? Or was he guilty by association?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2015)

Did you spot the colour of Cameron's face when he made the speech about the UK accepting refugees.

You would have thought Tory HQ would have better training methods to stop their leader from blushing bright red when he is 'economical with the truth'.
BP looked like it was going through the roof, he needs to watch his health.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2015)

delc said:



			Ob
There is an amazing difference between term time and school holiday time, so I suspect most of the traffic is generated by the school run! I know that most of the schools in the area are bulging at the seams with children, a lot of whom seem to be the offsprings of recent immigrants.
		
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Certainly school run clogs up the local road network. There would also be a significant reduction during school holidays because that is the period when many adults are also on holiday/leave too!

I'm a bit concerned as to how you measure ratio of 'offspring of recent immigrants'! Do you hang around schools and observe the kids like the 'strange men' we were warned about?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 5, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			well the news never lies so it must be true. 

just so I understand green fairy, you basically couldn't care less about that family as you have shared some pretty horrendous views on how you feel and why you feel it. 
what about the boy though? The boy that died and was washed up on the beach. What did he do? Or was he guilty by association?
		
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At least you acknowledged it, just depends which news you prefer. Best sometimes though for the whole story to come out.

Of course the child is worthy of sadness but there are many, many others who are not paraded in the 'news' to influence opinion.

There is a war and wars have factions, within those factions there are good people. Or do we determine that some are baddies and some are goodies? Are all refugees 'goodies' by dint of the fact that they are fleeing?

A lot of risk in getting it wrong.

Incidentally, I posted in this thread to give an opinion. That opinion could have been challenged, as to my thinking behind it. Instead, the high and mighty made comment about me, as a person, without any further question, immediately deciding I was a baddy.

Makes you wonder how wars ever start


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## delc (Sep 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Immigrants with cars, wow they must be doing well.

I find it 'interesting' listening to reporters saying either immigrants, migrants or refugees.
I swear one used all three in a two minute report about the same group.
		
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I am talking about the mainly economic migrants who arrived during the period of the last New Labour Government.  Most of them have done well enough to own cars and 'The State' pays them to have children!


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## londonlewis (Sep 5, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			At least you acknowledged it, just depends which news you prefer. Best sometimes though for the whole story to come out.

Of course the child is worthy of sadness but there are many, many others who are not paraded in the 'news' to influence opinion.

There is a war and wars have factions, within those factions there are good people. Or do we determine that some are baddies and some are goodies? Are all refugees 'goodies' by dint of the fact that they are fleeing?

A lot of risk in getting it wrong.
		
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i don't really understand what you are trying to say.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			David Cameron - man of principle.  Go on then Davie boy.  About face.  That's better.  Now tell us that this is what you were going to do all along. Naw?  Never mind.  It's a start.
		
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Not a fan of the man but the idea that we take those from UN camps makes more sense as they will have been processed and their status confirmed. There are large centre that have been set up and no need for Syrians to be making dangerous journeys.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2015)

c1973 said:



			This thread got me thinking of old tv comedy shows.........



Alf Garnett: Well, I mean, see if we go into Europe... 

Else Garnett: I thought we was in Europe. I mean, I thought we always have been. 

Alf Garnett: I know that, yer silly moo. I'm not talking about that aspect am I? I'm talking about the Common Market aspect of the going into Europe. 

Alf Garnett: Old Enoch's against it, in't 'e, eh? He don't want no more bloody foreigners over here. We got enough bloody foreigners here as it is. Bloody country's swarming with Eities and Krauts and Froggies and Spagnollies and Brussel Sprouts. All coming over here and taking our jobs off of us, aren't they? 

Else Garnett: Well, we can go over there and take the jobs off of them. 

Alf Garnett: I don't want to go over there, do I? 

Else Garnett: Wish you would. 

........can't think why.    

Click to expand...

Thanks for reminding me of another piece of Johnny Speight genius!! Just spent a joyous hour or so watching YouTube episodes of it! Absolutely bleedin' marvelous! And timeless too - his argument with the 'Scouse Git about Liverpool seems to be rather familiar!!  And Spurs never play well on a Saturday, cos that's their Sabbath!  Shame West Ham isn't the force it was back then though! 

It is indeed a shame that such programs just wouldn't 'get past the lawyers' these days - to borrow a phrase from Have I Got News for You!, unfortunately probably the closest thing we are likely to have!


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## c1973 (Sep 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for reminding me of another piece of Johnny Speight genius!! Just spent a joyous hour or so watching YouTube episodes of it! Absolutely bleedin' marvelous! And timeless too - his argument with the 'Scouse Git about Liverpool seems to be rather familiar!!  And Spurs never play well on a Saturday, cos that's their Sabbath!  Shame West Ham isn't the force it was back then though! 

It is indeed a shame that such programs just wouldn't 'get past the lawyers' these days - to borrow a phrase from Have I Got News for You!, unfortunately probably the closest thing we are likely to have!
		
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Don't forget about Jesus being English. Or his run ins with 'Marigold'.  Comedy genius.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 5, 2015)

Marigold. Me an Tashygirl ave been racking our brains for his name. 
Lol.


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## c1973 (Sep 5, 2015)

And not forgetting the film, where he wouldn't shave off his Hitler 'tache.....because he had his first!!  Magic.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I can't believe anyone takes you seriously. You are the man that doesn't provide any facts ever or refutes facts that are presented to you and yet you claim others are weak on ideas. 

You are weak on arguments, ideas and opinions. Pretty much everything you say is so poorly formed and so generically thrown out there. It's like you come from a comedy scetch, some old man who keeps saying 'things were better in my day...'
		
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You really do like to make personal attacks rather than debate the issue.   It's the armchair socialists way after all so I can see why.

Grow up please!


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## bluewolf (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You really do like to make personal attacks rather than debate the issue.   It's the armchair socialists way after all so I can see why.

Grow up please!
		
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Lol. Sorry SR, but the irony of attacking someone for insulting you by insulting and generalising is too precious to miss.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Lol. Sorry SR, but the irony of attacking someone for insulting you by insulting and generalising is too precious to miss.   

Click to expand...

If you want a good laugh, go back a few pages to where SR posts up various opinions as facts then tells LP to prove him wrong when LP said prove it. Wasn't so much a shoot yourself in the foot moment as a machine gun your whole leg off... still got me giggling


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## bluewolf (Sep 5, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			If you want a good laugh, go back a few pages to where SR posts up various opinions as facts then tells LP to prove him wrong when LP said prove it. Wasn't so much a shoot yourself in the foot moment as a machine gun your whole leg off... still got me giggling
		
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  It's been a great thread so far hasn't it?  I'm currently wondering whether to keep the thread going so as to stop someone posting the exact same thread in a few weeks time. Then I'll put up a poll asking if anyone has changed their opinion, the answer to which should make people realise the utter futility of Internet "discussions"...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Lol. Sorry SR, but the irony of attacking someone for insulting you by insulting and generalising is too precious to miss.   

Click to expand...

Yes I had a wee chuckle over that one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You really do like to make personal attacks rather than debate the issue.   It's the armchair socialists way after all so I can see why.

Grow up please!
		
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Did you chuckle to yourself when you said that ?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you chuckle to yourself when you said that ?
		
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No, still chuckling about your posts. :lol:


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			No, still chuckling about your posts. :lol:
		
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Really ? Not sure why you think they were funny.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			If you want a good laugh, go back a few pages to where SR posts up various opinions as facts then tells LP to prove him wrong when LP said prove it. Wasn't so much a shoot yourself in the foot moment as a machine gun your whole leg off... still got me giggling
		
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I put up opinions as opinions and explained they were based on my personal experiences.   I thought you better than that Brian.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Lol. Sorry SR, but the irony of attacking someone for insulting you by insulting and generalising is too precious to miss.   

Click to expand...

Why do you continue to say this.   I debate subjects and give my considered views, these views may differ from yours and I dont expect you to agree with them but I do not attack you personally or suggest your views are stupid.   I do however constantly get personal slights from people that dont agree with me rather than keep to the point in contention.


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## bluewolf (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you continue to say this.   I debate subjects and give my considered views, these views may differ from yours and I dont expect you to agree with them but I do not attack you personally or suggest your views are stupid.   I do however constantly get personal slights from people that dont agree with me rather than keep to the point in contention.
		
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I was referring to one particular post. Keep yer knickers on SR. And I'm not sure I continually say it. I continually think it, but it's others who usually say it. Your constant attack on anyone who is Left of you demeans your argument just as much as you claim their attacks demean theirs.


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## JustOne (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Over 600,000 legal Immigrants into the UK during the last year.
Net immigration 330,000.
8.3 Million people living in the UK born abroad.

Are these numbers acceptable and can we supply suitable public services if this trend continues or increases.
		
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Just to get the thread back on topic.....

What is 'Net immigration'?


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I put up opinions as opinions and explained they were based on my personal experiences.   I thought you better than that Brian.
		
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A quick look back, Post #199. LP asked you to substantiate "many" and "major." And then you both went on a "you prove it, no you prove it." And then you do a "I can't be bothered." Hilarious!!

As for thinking better of me?? Sorry for pointing out how good a job you were making of looking hilarious...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2015)

You know what!   I am finished with this site and will never post on it again.    I am sick to the back teeth of people that cannot accept contrary views and revert to the type of pathetic insults I receive here.

There are a few people who I have some respect for even if we don't always agree but there are to many of the type I just don't like.

For the members who have been interesting and informative I thank you, even if I have not always been in agreement.

Goodbye.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Just to get the thread back on topic.....

What is 'Net immigration'?
		
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Amount of immigrants minus your HC ?


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## bluewolf (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You know what!   I am finished with this site and will never post on it again.    I am sick to the back teeth of people that cannot accept contrary views and revert to the type of pathetic insults I receive here.

There are a few people who I have some respect for even if we don't always agree but there are to many of the type I just don't like.

For the members who have been interesting and informative I thank you, even if I have not always been in agreement.

Goodbye.
		
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put the Gin down and relax SR. it's only a forum, not real life. Real life is what's happening out in the World right now. Now that's something to get upset about.


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## Fish (Sep 5, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Just to get the thread back on topic.....

What is 'Net immigration'?
		
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I suppose, its what's left after those that have decided to leave the country, although I'd expect you to know or at least deduce that!


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## Fish (Sep 5, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			put the Gin down and relax SR. it's only a forum, not real life. Real life is what's happening out in the World right now. *Now that's something to get upset about*.
		
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No its not, my dinners late, that's just not on :angry:


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## bluewolf (Sep 5, 2015)

Fish said:



			No its not, my dinners late, that's just not on :angry:
		
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You could miss a meal or 2!!


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Just to get the thread back on topic.....

What is 'Net immigration'?
		
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Immigration in minus immigration out (emigration).

If more emigrated than immigrated, then it would be 'net emigration'.


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## Fish (Sep 5, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			You could miss a meal or 2!! 

Click to expand...

 How very dare you..


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## londonlewis (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You really do like to make personal attacks rather than debate the issue.   It's the armchair socialists way after all so I can see why.

Grow up please!
		
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that was hardly a personal attack. I haven't called you any names, been rude or offensive. I've simply tried to explain that you are all opinion and no substance. 

Dont think ive ever heard the term 'armchair socialist' before. 

In terms of debating the issue, you don't actually do any debating at all. Any time you are asked for facts you say 'go find them yourself', which basically means you don't have any, don't know any and can't be bothered to look for any.


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## londonlewis (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You know what!   I am finished with this site and will never post on it again.    I am sick to the back teeth of people that cannot accept contrary views and revert to the type of pathetic insults I receive here.

There are a few people who I have some respect for even if we don't always agree but there are to many of the type I just don't like.

For the members who have been interesting and informative I thank you, even if I have not always been in agreement.

Goodbye.
		
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Sounds like he is fleeing from persecution and may seek asylum in another forum. 
How ironic.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You know what!   I am finished with this site and will never post on it again.    I am sick to the back teeth of people that cannot accept contrary views and revert to the type of pathetic insults I receive here.

There are a few people who I have some respect for even if we don't always agree but there are to many of the type I just don't like.

For the members who have been interesting and informative I thank you, even if I have not always been in agreement.

Goodbye.
		
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Well  socket, if you do decide to go I for one will Be gutted. having said that. Even if London Lewis said the same, Liverpool phil, Louise or anyone else on here I would say the same. The point is of these forums is you say your piece and that's it. Some will and some won't agree with you. That's there loss or gain. Sometimes you just have to sow a seed.
 What some folk on here have to realise is that everyone has different life experiences which will determine an individual's opinions. Whether it is a fact or not, all it is, is an opinion.
me I have an NVQ in having splinters in me butt from sitting on the fence. It enables me to see both sides of a story.
get smashed for the weekend and come back on Monday. 
See you me man.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You know what!   I am finished with this site and will never post on it again.    I am sick to the back teeth of people that cannot accept contrary views and revert to the type of pathetic insults I receive here.

There are a few people who I have some respect for even if we don't always agree but there are to many of the type I just don't like.

For the members who have been interesting and informative I thank you, even if I have not always been in agreement.

Goodbye.
		
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Must admit, I don't agree with very many of your opinions but am sorry to read this. I know I've given you a gentle ribbing on a couple of posts but it was very tongue in cheek with no offence intended. Not that I think those posts are what has annoyed you.


Before reading this, I was going to post something on this thread and I'm going to write it anyway, it's based on your previous postings and is not influenced by this one....


There are strong and diverse opinions on the issue expressed on this thread. Regardless of whether you agree with SocketRocket or not, he argues his case well and consistently and is not without compassion. From my reading of it, he clearly differentiates between economic migrants and refugees and advocates a different approach for each. It's an emotive topic for debate and too easy to allow concern over the unfolding human tragedy to cloud the subtler points of a complex issue....



I hope that's fair.... and..... don't go!


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 5, 2015)

Can we not turn this thread into a "Don't go Socket fest"  it might just be another fit of pique flounce,(There have been a few notables in the past, some more than once )  but lets get this thread back on track

we can open a book of condolence in OOB if you like


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we not turn this thread into a "Don't go Socket fest"  it might just be another fit of pique flounce,(There have been a few notables in the past, some more than once )  but lets get this thread back on track

we can open a book of condolence in OOB if you like
		
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B
	


Good idea.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			B
	View attachment 16738


Good idea.
		
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Quality


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## JustOne (Sep 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Immigration in minus immigration out (emigration).

If more emigrated than immigrated, then it would be 'net emigration'.
		
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Ah ok, I thought immigration minus emigration would give net *migration* (immigration and emigration being the act of coming/going)

Wasn't sure what SR meant about 'net immigration'.



About to read the entire thread but FWIW I think we should let them ALL in.


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## JustOne (Sep 6, 2015)

JustOne said:



			About to read the entire thread but FWIW I think we should let them ALL in.
		
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OMG what a garbage thread - you should all (apart from DfT) be ashamed of yourselves, anyone would think you'd all put your lives on the line to save your families from it's own government!! when in reality your greatest hardship is having to see someone wearing jeans in the clubhouse.

We should take them all. Britain (between us) has plenty of space.... Scotland alone could house a 'new London' (1,500sqKm) of 8.6million people and still have 76,500sqKm available to it's meagre 5.6million current residents.

Spreading several million people across the entire Country would hardly be noticed, we are going to need better infrastructure and more health/education services REGARDLESS of what happens, we are a growing nation.

HOWEVER I think that people who come here should be supported by the state for 1yr and that means CHEAP accommodation and food vouchers  (I'd accept that if I was fleeing my own Country) and have to work 20hrs/week within the community (if able to do so). IF any money is paid it certainly wouldn't be enough to have Sky TV!!!!!!!

I'd also like to see a nation wide clamp down on religion.... NO MORE religious buildings for ANY religion. We have the ones that we have and that's it!! We need to be a nation who live together not one who looks over it's shoulder at communities within communities.

I'd be quite happy if 10,000 immigrants came to live in my town. They are going to need services that would probably create a lot of jobs in the area. Shops, dentists, another school, doctors etc etc.

And whilst I'm on my 5 minute soapbox I'd like to see the government change it's building policy so that for every 2/3/4/5 bedroom house built there are 50 one bedroom flats built, THAT is the only way we are going to be able to house our OWN children in the future, let alone immigrants.


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## JustOne (Sep 6, 2015)

and as a footnote to those 'worried' about numbers....




www.workpermit.com
The following categories of people can take up *any lawful employment in the UK and do not need a work permit*:

Nationals of EEA (European Economic Area) countries (the EEA comprises the 25 EU member states - Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic*, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia*, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary*, Ireland, Italy, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland*, Portugal, Slovakia*, Slovenia*, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom â€“ and also Norway, Liechtenstein, and Iceland)
		
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So next week the entire population of France, Italy, Germany and Spain (for example) could move to the UK if they wanted.... only some 250,000,000 people


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2015)

JustOne said:



			and as a footnote to those 'worried' about numbers....



So next week the entire population of France, Italy, Germany and Spain (for example) could move to the UK if they wanted.... only some 250,000,000 people 

Click to expand...

You omitted the Bulgarians and Romanians - who became EU members in 2007, but whose rights to move and work were restricted for the first 7 years.



JustOne said:



			Ah ok, I thought immigration minus emigration would give net *migration* (immigration and emigration being the act of coming/going)
...
		
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It would. Just saved SR 1 word and cost you and me several.


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2015)

His argument is also flawed as there is no thought put towards infrastructure. We may have acres of room for everyone but as there are not the houses, schools doctors, nurses and teachers let alone a road system to cope with the present inhabitants how are we going to manage any influx of immigrants or refugees.


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## c1973 (Sep 6, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			His argument is also flawed as there is no thought put towards infrastructure. We may have acres of room for everyone but as there are not the houses, schools doctors, nurses and teachers let alone a road system to cope with the present inhabitants how are we going to manage any influx of immigrants or refugees.
		
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Without an emotionally detached, considered, reasoned debate based around factual, statistically correct data then (imo) our infrastructure couldn't cope with taking in 'all' of them. 

Plans would need to be in place and executed in order to provide these services for any influx, let alone maintain the current level for our current citizens. 

And when we have a PM, seemingly, basing his policy around a photograph in a newspaper, then I'd say it's fair to assume that that debate is not going to take place.


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## JustOne (Sep 6, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			His argument is also flawed as there is no thought put towards infrastructure. We may have acres of room for everyone but as there are not the houses, schools doctors, nurses and teachers let alone a road system to cope with the present inhabitants how are we going to manage any influx of immigrants or refugees.
		
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I'm sure most if not all would be happy to have a portacabin and food.

What we need is to change the laws so that whilst people are welcome there will be a certain 'lifestyle' that they will have to expect, whether that be financial/religious/location etc.... might not be quite so appealing then.... but safe.

These laws will make the current inhabitants (us) not scared that we are going to jeopardise our 'freedoms' and that our women will still be able to wear bikinis without being stoned to death. Most of us are not racist/xenophobes... we are just concerned for our own freedoms should the apple cart be disturbed.


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm sure most if not all would be happy to have a portacabin and food.

What we need is to change the laws so that whilst people are welcome there will be a certain 'lifestyle' that they will have to expect, whether that be financial/religious/location etc.... might not be quite so appealing then.... but safe.

These laws will make the current inhabitants (us) not scared that we are going to jeopardise our 'freedoms' and that our women will still be able to wear bikinis without being stoned to death. Most of us are not racist/xenophobes... we are just concerned for our own freedoms should the apple cart be disturbed.
		
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Unfortunately people get sick and require education so that's a good 4 years of training time, where have you allowed for the time for the training of the necessary people to do this. Your not a council official or planner are you by any chance.

The best solution was always for refugees to go into the dedicated UNHCR sites as most have where the necessary help is available .


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## JustOne (Sep 6, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately people get sick and require education so that's a good 4 years of training time, where have you allowed for the time for the training of the necessary people to do this. Your not a council official or planner are you by any chance.

The best solution was always for refugees to go into the dedicated UNHCR sites as most have where the necessary help is available .
		
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Our own population due to child birth will add approx 3 million in the next 10yrs.... they are going to need education/health services too so there should already be a plan for expansion. Yes a huge influx at once will cause a short term problem for the areas they are 'housed' if they are housed in bulk but no more than if they were at a refugee camp anywhere else in the world. 

As I said in a previous post... 255 million people could legally turn up tomorrow, what plan do we have in place for that?


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## MegaSteve (Sep 6, 2015)

JustOne said:



			As I said in a previous post... 255 million people could legally turn up tomorrow, what plan do we have in place for that? 

Click to expand...


Hopefully the EU will give us a bit more of an allowance from the Â£55M+ a day we pay for subs....


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## Tashyboy (Sep 7, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Without an emotionally detached, considered, reasoned debate based around factual, statistically correct data then (imo) our infrastructure couldn't cope with taking in 'all' of them. 

Plans would need to be in place and executed in order to provide these services for any influx, let alone maintain the current level for our current citizens. 

And when we have a PM, seemingly, basing his policy around a photograph in a newspaper, then I'd say it's fair to assume that that debate is not going to take place.
		
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Agree with every word you have said, and I am sat here supping me tea thinking    " wonder why we have not had a debate about this " be it at national or international level.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

France accepts 24,000 immigrants from Syria - and then launches airstrikes *in* Syria.

Beggar's belief.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			France accepts 24,000 immigrants from Syria - and then launches airstrikes *in* Syria.

Beggar's belief.  

Click to expand...

Can you not tell the difference ?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you not tell the difference ?
		
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OK, I expected that, so here is the reply - think about it, you may need more than half a brain.

Fact is, we are accepting migrants from Syria and feeling sorry for them - and then going out and bombing the crap out of other Syrians, killing and maiming kids no doubt.


If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


. . . and if not, why not?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			OK, I expected that, so here is the reply - think about it, you may need more than half a brain.

Fact is, we are accepting migrants from Syria and feeling sorry for them - and then going out and bombing the crap out of other Syrians, killing and maiming kids no doubt.


If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


. . . and if not, why not?
		
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So you can't tell the difference then - cheers for clearing that up


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			think about it, you may need more than half a brain.
		
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so rude


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you can't tell the difference then - cheers for clearing that up
		
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Smart answer - that appears to be your forte.  It would help debate if you were able to use the other half  :smirk:


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			so rude
		
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People are only thinking one way with this, there are other issues - and plenty of dead kids that don't make the news.

I repeat:

 If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			and plenty of dead kids that don't make the news.
		
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Ok, what is your point?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			People are only thinking one way with this, there are other issues - and plenty of dead kids that don't make the news.

I repeat:

 If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?
		
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If a terrorist army in ISIL were fleeing the fighting why would we be compassionate? Surely the whole idea is to defeat ISIL to stop the war that is causing the current problem? Maybe I'm missing something here but I genuinely haven't got a clue where your garbled mind is taking this point... Wouldn't do any harm for your other half to be engaged...


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?
		
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That isn't exactly how seeking asylum works though is it. 
Turning around half way through a war that you started and saying 'ah ... boys, we are losing this one aren't we! Let's run away and seek asylum in Europe'. 

For full visibility - a refugee is; a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

In the example you have given, those that would be fleeing don't fit the above description.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?
		
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Hopefully not. I'd expect us to lock them up and charge them with crimes against humanity.


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			If the war changed direction and it was the ISIL faction fleeing and asking for refuge - would we be as compassionate.  


 . . . and if not, why not?
		
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when I asked what your point was, I was asking in regards to the 'and plenty of dead kids that don't make the news' comment. 

what is your point regarding this comment?


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			If a* terrorist army *in ISIL were fleeing the fighting why would we be compassionate? Surely the whole idea is to defeat ISIL to stop the war that is causing the current problem? Maybe I'm missing something here but I genuinely haven't got a clue where your garbled mind is taking this point... Wouldn't do any harm for your other half to be engaged...
		
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One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I believe that originally we wanted to get shot of Assad.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			when I asked what your point was, I was asking in regards to the 'and plenty of dead kids that don't make the news' comment. 

what is your point regarding this comment?
		
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The West have created the problem and our interventions have killed many people, including children. 

I don't agree that any one faction is better or worse than another. As someone pointed out to me, it's their religion and beliefs that drive them, or the degree to which they adhere to them.


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			The West have created the problem and our interventions have killed many people, including children. 

I don't agree that any one faction is better or worse than another. As someone pointed out to me, it's their religion and beliefs that drive them, or the degree to which they adhere to them.
		
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I don't see how 'plenty of dead kids that don't make the news' has any relevance to what you have just written.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

So many assumptions.

All refugees are good people 
All supporters of ISIL are bad people 
All terrorists are bad people
All air attacks by the west only kill the bad people, and never children
All the Muslims fleeing ISIL need our help.
All the Christians fleeing ISIL don't need our help.


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			So many assumptions.

All refugees are good people 
All supporters of ISIL are bad people 
All terrorists are bad people
All air attacks by the west only kill the bad people, and never children
All the Muslims fleeing ISIL need our help.
All the Christians fleeing ISIL don't need our help.
		
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It's pretty ironic that you've just produced a list of, I'm assuming, our assumptions based on your own assumptions. 

Again, I don't see how any of this is relevant to your comment that plenty of other children are being killed but not making the news. What did you mean when you said it?


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2015)

So many assumptions.

All refugees are good people - *no*
All supporters of ISIL are bad people - *yes*
All terrorists are bad people - *no*
All air attacks by the west only kill the bad people, and never children - *no*
All the Muslims fleeing ISIL need our help. - *no*
All the Christians fleeing ISIL don't need our help. - *no

*Not bad, you got one right. Don't forget to do your homework before you go out to play with the big boys.


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## delc (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			The West have created the problem and our interventions have killed many people, including children. 

I don't agree that any one faction is better or worse than another. As someone pointed out to me, it's their religion and beliefs that drive them, or the degree to which they adhere to them.
		
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If you want a real bad war, just involve religion in it. I always thought that Islam was a rather kind, harmless religion until Islamic State came on the scene. I am sure there is nothing in the Koran about beheading journalists and aid workers who are only there to help!


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

How the hell did you conclude that they were my assumptions, they most certainly are not mine. I correlated that list from the responses received to my question, over the last few posts.

The children I refer to are all those caught up in the war, those killed by our airstrikes, the decapitated Christian children in Iraq hardly got reported. 
My point was that *one* child that drowned in Turkey, whilst his father was trying to get to Europe swayed opinion, massively.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So many assumptions.

All refugees are good people - *no*
All supporters of ISIL are bad people - *yes*
All terrorists are bad people - *no*
All air attacks by the west only kill the bad people, and never children - *no*
All the Muslims fleeing ISIL need our help. - *no*
All the Christians fleeing ISIL don't need our help. - *no

*Not bad, you got one right. Don't forget to do your homework before you go out to play with the big boys.
		
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I was not trying to get any right. I was pointing out that those things, including ISIL are all assumptive.

. . . and if ISIL and its millions of supporters are all bad people - what do you suggest we do with them?


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			How the hell did you conclude that they were my assumptions, they most certainly are not mine. I correlated that list from the responses received to my question, over the last few posts.
		
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I didn't conclude that these were your assumptions. I stated that you are assuming these are our views. No one has written any of these points down before so you have obviously assumed that's what we believe. 



The Green Fairy said:



			The children I refer to are all those caught up in the war, those killed by our airstrikes, the decapitated Christian children in Iraq hardly got reported. 
My point was that *one* child that drowned in Turkey, whilst his father was trying to get to Europe swayed opinion, massively.
		
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I still don't really understand your point. What point are you trying to make? 

That the press should have posted pictures of children that were killed by drones? Why? So we basically stop our involvement in this and any future wars because of the potential to harm innocent victims? 
Ok, so we get rid of all our weapons. 

Or that the life (or death) of one child should not have had so much coverage and that somehow his life was worth less than others because his father put his life in danger when you believe he shouldn't have? 
Ok, why is one person's life worth more than others? 


I don't really understand why this is a problem for you.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

My problem lies more with the fact that we accept, in refugees, an unknown quantity. It is obvious that ISIL supporters are considered to be evil and guilty of war crimes but so are Assad's supporters.

When we take refugees from this part of the world, where a culture of violence and war has been endemic for years, how are we to be sure that these people will remain peaceful when ensconced in our countries?


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			My problem lies more with the fact that we accept, in refugees, an unknown quantity. It is obvious that ISIL supporters are considered to be evil and guilty of war crimes but so are Assad's supporters.

When we take refugees from this part of the world, where a culture of violence and war has been endemic for years, how are we to be sure that these people will remain peaceful when ensconced in our countries?
		
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I still have absolutely no idea why you brought up that kid on the beach or those other children. 
you've moved on to all sorts of other topics which again suggests you don't know why you said it or you can't justify why you said it.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I still have absolutely no idea why you brought up that kid on the beach or those other children. 
you've moved on to all sorts of other topics which again suggests you don't know why you said it or you can't justify why you said it.
		
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My original post, was the irony of France crowing about their compassion and then carrying out air strikes.

Typically, however, this was met with a smart comment. The children thing was to do with how many would potentially be killed in the airstrikes. 
The media has created a big compassion issue of the young boy and everyone has suddenly become very willing to accept these refugees.

I'm not one of them.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 7, 2015)

Five years ago me and my beloved went to Kenya for our 25th anniversary. The Hotel was called Voyager. In essence the hotel "docked" in a differant country every night.
after a week or so a waitress heard we were on our 25th and the following night we were invited to dine at the captains table. captain that night was the head chef. "Captain Freddie" Missis T has just told me. Really really nice chap.
there were 5 couples sat around the table. A couple married 35 years, he was ex army met his wife when she was 16 in Belfast. She made me laugh telling us about running down the street being shot at by up the IRA. She hoped the bullets would not hit the fish tank she was carrying. They had to move her out of her house coz she fell in love with a soldier. He was very quiet and " Sussed folk out". He was nice. Another couple was married 30 yr. another 27. Us At 25 and another couple married 2 years. He was nice but she rubbed me up massive.
everyone was talking nicely and she dropped out that she was involved in integrating "Asylum seekers " into Britain. She lives and works in Leicester.
I said at this point ( five years ago) that we should have no more Asylum seekers, immigrants, etc etc. at this point I received my first kicking under the table off my wife. 
Long story short this social worker told me she was helping Somalians to settle into a block of flats which they had to themselves. I said " so your helping to create social segregation and not social integration" I then got a second kick. I asked "how do we know who these people are. How do we not know that they say they are who they are". Third kick.
she then said quote " actually these people initially murdered and terrorised other clans in Somalia. other clans were made to flee there country. When the boot was on the other foot and initial murders were made to flee Somalia they ended up being housed in a block of flats in Leicester next to relatives of people they had murdered in Somalia". It was the relatives who told the social services who these people were that had just been housed.

So in essence. No I don't think we really do know who we are housing. But am sure that Daves plans to house people who have been screened in UN camps should go a long way to over come this problem.

on the Plane coming home miss short ass social worker was giving an air stewardess some real serious grief over nothing. He looked embarrassed. Missis T was chuntering under her breath about this woman. I told her my legs were black and blue coz you were defending her.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			...refugees.

I'm not one of them.
		
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Yes you are!

You are 'living' in Australia!!


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Five years ago me and my beloved went to Kenya for our 25th anniversary. The Hotel was called Voyager. In essence the hotel "docked" in a differant country every night.
after a week or so a waitress heard we were on our 25th and the following night we were invited to dine at the captains table. captain that night was the head chef. "Captain Freddie" Missis T has just told me. Really really nice chap.
there were 5 couples sat around the table. A couple married 35 years, he was ex army met his wife when she was 16 in Belfast. She made me laugh telling us about running down the street being shot at by up the IRA. She hoped the bullets would not hit the fish tank she was carrying. They had to move her out of her house coz she fell in love with a soldier. He was very quiet and " Sussed folk out". He was nice. Another couple was married 30 yr. another 27. Us At 25 and another couple married 2 years. He was nice but she rubbed me up massive.
everyone was talking nicely and she dropped out that she was involved in integrating "Asylum seekers " into Britain. She lives and works in Leicester.
I said at this point ( five years ago) that we should have no more Asylum seekers, immigrants, etc etc. at this point I received my first kicking under the table off my wife. 
Long story short this social worker told me she was helping Somalians to settle into a block of flats which they had to themselves. I said " so your helping to create social segregation and not social integration" I then got a second kick. I asked "how do we know who these people are. How do we not know that they say they are who they are". Third kick.
she then said quote " actually these people initially murdered and terrorised other clans in Somalia. other clans were made to flee there country. When the boot was on the other foot and initial murders were made to flee Somalia they ended up being housed in a block of flats in Leicester next to relatives of people they had murdered in Somalia". It was the relatives who told the social services who these people were that had just been housed.

So in essence. No I don't think we really do know who we are housing. But am sure that Daves plans to house people who have been screened in UN camps should go a long way to over come this problem.

on the Plane coming home miss short ass social worker was giving an air stewardess some real serious grief over nothing. He looked embarrassed. Missis T was chuntering under her breath about this woman. I told her my legs were black and blue coz you were defending her.
		
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So so basically you have a problem with two things. 

1) taking asylum seekers in the first place
2) our vetting process for determining which asylum seekers to take and for determining who they are

if the UK improved the vetting process, would you be happy or do you still believe they shouldn't come here in the first place?

if you believe the latter, what should be done with them instead? Should  other countries take the full burden and we stay out of it? That doesn't seem fair. 
How about we send them all somewhere else? Would that solve the problem? If history has told us anything this is not a solution and never will be, this is what we did with the Jewish population that lives in Gaza. We basically decided to give them land to rehouse them as they were being persecuted. We armed them, trained them and helped develop their country. We can't do that again. 

So so we either decide to take asylum seekers in or we let them die. 

From the the many arguments made by those opposing the basic human rights of asylum seekers I can only really make some obvious connections;
- as we can not correctly tell the difference between those that are 'innocent' or 'bad' asylum seekers, we shouldn't let any of them in to begin with 
- the asylum seekers that die trying to get to EU countries have brought it upon themselves, including children 
- because there are many other victims of war (innocent men, women and children) some of whom are killed by attacks made by European nations, we should not feel compassion for any of the dead that are trying to seek asylum 


As for your story, I'm not surprised your wife kicked you.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			So so basically you have a problem with two things. 

1) taking asylum seekers in the first place
2) our vetting process for determining which asylum seekers to take and for determining who they are

if the UK improved the vetting process, would you be happy or do you still believe they shouldn't come here in the first place?

As for your story, I'm not surprised your wife kicked you.
		
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Lewy you need to take a deep breath and read what people have written and not what you think they have written.

1, I have previously stated in this topic that I do not have a problem with people coming into this country and staying. So no I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TAKING ASYLUM SEEKERS IN THE FIRST PLACE.  I would like to know who is going to live next door to me or my family. Nothing radical or controversial in that.

2, I have a problem with our previous vetting process, basically I don't think murders/ terrorists enhance my lifestyle. If that upsets you or anyone else well am not gonna apologise. But guess what Lewy not all asylum seekers are murders.

at the time I made my comments that "we should not allow anymore asylum seekers" the events that were happening in Syria were along way off.

the point of the story was that I have been told off Professionals ? Who deal with immigration that they did not know who is coming into this country. As was asked earlier in this topic " do we know who is coming into this country".

as regards the kicking bit. It's a bit sad really you should stoop so low to think that someone deserves a kicking.


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Lewy you need to take a deep breath and read what people have written and not what you think they have written.

1, I have previously stated in this topic that I do not have a problem with people coming into this country and staying. So no I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TAKING ASYLUM SEEKERS IN THE FIRST PLACE.  I would like to know who is going to live next door to me or my family. Nothing radical or controversial in that.

2, I have a problem with our previous vetting process, basically I don't think murders/ terrorists enhance my lifestyle. If that upsets you or anyone else well am not gonna apologise. But guess what Lewy not all asylum seekers are murders.

at the time I made my comments that "we should not allow anymore asylum seekers" the events that were happening in Syria were along way off.

the point of the story was that I have been told off Professionals ? Who deal with immigration that they did not know who is coming into this country. As was asked earlier in this topic " do we know who is coming into this country".

as regards the kicking bit. It's a bit sad really you should stoop so low to think that someone deserves a kicking.
		
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Please dont call me Lewy. 

It's murderer, not murder.  

You quoted a single anecdote and I'm sure its accuracy has been lost somewhat, based on my intuition. 

Forgive me to stooping 'so low', is that lower than, the same level or just above your wife who actually kicked you three times?


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			Please dont call me Lewy. 

It's murderer, not murder.  

You quoted a single anecdote and I'm sure its accuracy has been lost somewhat, based on my intuition. 

Forgive me to stooping 'so low', is that lower than, the same level or just above your wife who actually kicked you three times?
		
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So others must be accurate or they're accused of having no substance but you're basing your assumptions on intuition... riiigghhht... and I'm assuming you're not calling someone's wife low? If you are, you need a good look at how you're coming across. A heated debate is one thing but criticising someone's wife is several steps too far.


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So others must be accurate or they're accused of having no substance but you're basing your assumptions on intuition... riiigghhht... and I'm assuming you're not calling someone's wife low? If you are, you need a good look at how you're coming across. A heated debate is one thing but criticising someone's wife is several steps too far.
		
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I can't exactly base that assumption on fact can I hobbit, I wasn't present at the dinner table. So in that instance I must use my intuition. 

So I am considered to have stooped to a low level for saying 'I'm not surprised your wife kicked you' but then I get in hot water for suggesting that his wife must be at least on the same level as she is the one that actually kicked him? 

Well, that's a nice case of double standards.


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2015)

londonlewis said:



			I can't exactly base that assumption on fact can I hobbit, I wasn't present at the dinner table. So in that instance I must use my intuition. 

So I am considered to have stooped to a low level for saying 'I'm not surprised your wife kicked you' but then I get in hot water for suggesting that his wife must be at least on the same level as she is the one that actually kicked him? 

Well, that's a nice case of double standards.
		
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Maybe you need to reread your post. Seems pretty clear to me... but hey, you're Mr. perfect...


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## londonlewis (Sep 7, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you need to reread your post. Seems pretty clear to me... but hey, you're Mr. perfect...
		
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I did re-read it. Maybe you are reading something that isn't there. 

Why the need for name calling?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 7, 2015)

This thread started off as a pretty good debate but as per usual, it's been ruined by petty bickering by a handful of individuals.


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## londonlewis (Sep 8, 2015)

drive4show said:



			This thread started off as a pretty good debate but as per usual, it's been ruined by petty bickering by a handful of individuals.
		
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Like a broken calculator, this adds nothing.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2015)

drive4show said:



			This thread started off as a pretty good debate but as per usual, it's been ruined by petty bickering by a handful of individuals.
		
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Well said.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2015)

back on track please guys

Lets leave the personal stuff behind

Thanks


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			back on track please guys

Lets leave the personal stuff behind

Thanks
		
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Thankyou phil&#128077;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2015)

25,000 refugees over the next 4 years - where are they going to go?  A refugee camp established in a park of every town and city in the country? - that's not going to please some folks.

85 English districts have populations of 50,000-100,000.  234 of 100,000 or more.  50 refugees in each of first lot ? (that's maybe 15 new houses worth).  4,250; 100 (30 houses worth) in each of the 100k+ = 23,400.  4,250+23,400 = 27,650 - bingo - sorted!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So many assumptions.

All refugees are good people - *no*
All supporters of ISIL are bad people - *yes*
All terrorists are bad people - *no*
All air attacks by the west only kill the bad people, and never children - *no*
All the Muslims fleeing ISIL need our help. - *no*
All the Christians fleeing ISIL don't need our help. - *no

*Not bad, you got one right. Don't forget to do your homework before you go out to play with the big boys.
		
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I like the thought process of some I have read letters from in the MSM that says...

1) Clothes not in tatters - can't be a refugee from a war zone
2) Not underweight - can't be a refugee from a war zone
3) No visible wounds -  - can't be a refugee from a war zone

Not a refugee from a war zone?  Sorry - you don't qualify


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## londonlewis (Sep 9, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like the thought process of some I have read letters from in the MSM that says...

1) Clothes not in tatters - can't be a refugee from a war zone
2) Not underweight - can't be a refugee from a war zone
3) No visible wounds -  - can't be a refugee from a war zone

Not a refugee from a war zone?  Sorry - you don't qualify
		
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Can't tell whether you are being serious or not.


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like the thought process of some I have read letters from in the MSM that says...

1) Clothes not in tatters - can't be a refugee from a war zone
2) Not underweight - can't be a refugee from a war zone
3) No visible wounds -  - can't be a refugee from a war zone

Not a refugee from a war zone?  Sorry - you don't qualify
		
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So, if you're from the posh end of town you're not allowed to be a refugee? What happens if you're overweight when you set out on on your trek, but are the 'right' weight when you arrive? And the guy standing next to you in downtown xxxx gets killed by shrapnel, is it wrong you've not even got a mark on you?

Sorry, Wednesday is blue eyed day. Come back tomorrow when we're only taking brown eyed people... comparable logic?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 9, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So, if you're from the posh end of town you're not allowed to be a refugee? What happens if you're overweight when you set out on on your trek, but are the 'right' weight when you arrive? And the guy standing next to you in downtown xxxx gets killed by shrapnel, is it wrong you've not even got a mark on you?

Sorry, Wednesday is blue eyed day. Come back tomorrow when we're only taking brown eyed people... comparable logic?
		
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I think you missed the part where SILH was referring to logic he has seen in "MSM" (no idea what this is?), but I'm pretty sure it isn't what SILH thinks (almost the opposite, could I guess?). He was just pointing out the illogical attitudes out there...


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## bluewolf (Sep 9, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I think you missed the part where SILH was referring to logic he has seen in "MSM" (no idea what this is?), but I'm pretty sure it isn't what SILH thinks (almost the opposite, could I guess?). He was just pointing out the illogical attitudes out there...
		
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I'm going to hazard a guess at "Mainstream Media", but I suspect I'm wrong..

FWIW, I agree that SILH (who certainly loves a good acronym) is highlighting the attitudes of certain others, rather than his own..


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 9, 2015)

There are certainly a number of 'attitudes' out there - and quite a lot of weird stuff. Like the young 'refugee' drawing a finger across his throat at the cameraman. Or, the train station full of refugees being given food supplies, which they throw dismissively onto the rail tracks.
It is not that as 'refugees' they don't look starving or injured, it is how they *do* look - predominantly male, a bloody sight fitter than any of their European age group, aggressive towards the authorities helping them.

If they were wearing footy shirts I would be worried - but as they have come from the violent culture of a disrupted country I am more than that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I'm going to hazard a guess at "Mainstream Media", but I suspect I'm wrong..

FWIW, I agree that SILH (who certainly loves a good acronym) is highlighting the attitudes of certain others, rather than his own..
		
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My as usually hopelessly made point was simply asking about what a refugee should look like - because some seem to judge whether an individual is a 'valid refugee or not' on the basis of how they _look_.  They look fit, well and reasonably well dressed so can't be a refugee from a real war zone - and so why should we give such a person 'safe haven'? seems to be the sub-text to their thinking.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My as usually hopelessly made point was simply asking about* what a refugee should look like *- because some seem to judge whether an individual is a 'valid refugee or not' on the basis of how they _look_.  They look fit, well and reasonably well dressed so can't be a refugee from a real war zone - and so why should we give such a person 'safe haven'? seems to be the sub-text to their thinking.
		
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We have to be able to use some basic criteria and logic.

Very shortly this war is going to get uglier and there will be another faction fleeing. I have already asked the question whether ISIL refugees will be treated in the same way as the current flood.

I take it that the soft touch liberal mob will be clearly able to identify those 'terrorist' refugees, because they will be wearing black clothes, masks and carrying black Islamic flags.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			We have to be able to use some basic criteria and logic.

Very shortly this war is going to get uglier and there will be another faction fleeing. I have already asked the question whether *ISIL refugees will be treated in the same way as the current flood.*

I take it that the soft touch liberal mob will be clearly able to identify those 'terrorist' refugees, because they will be wearing black clothes, masks and carrying black Islamic flags.
		
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They will get treated in the manner their actions deem fit - if they are found to be ISIS fighters who have commited crimes against their fellow people then they will be treated as terrorists and the action that come with that.


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## londonlewis (Sep 10, 2015)

[h=1]Overseas football fans visiting Britain now at 800,000[/h]
how can we cope with this number? where are we going to put them all? 
how do we know they are all football fans as some of them don't wear their team's shirt? 

Can we ensure with certainty that we are taking the best football fans out there, or might some of these visitors be unskilled? 

Our football stadiums are full.


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## delc (Sep 12, 2015)

Apparently Islamic State do intend to infiltrate some of their Jehadists among the "refugees"!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2015)

I predict that by 2020 we will have taken in 100,000 refugees from Syria.   I think we might as well face up to the fact that Europe including the UK have neglected and agitated in the Middle East for decades and the chickens are now coming home to roost.  The region is a mess.  There are many millions of people with their lives at threat and living in ruined or destroyed towns and cities.  And they have had enough.  Who can blame folk for trying to escape that - I would - and I'd try to go somewhere safe.  

I think we are going to have to face up to the situation that means we cannot in the UK sit Canute-like hoping this wave of refugees somehow stops or someone else will sort it and look after them.  The rather unpalatable truth is that our rather cosy live in the UK is going to have to change over the next five years and it may never be the same again.  So surely it is best that we accept the situation as it presents itself and coordinate with the rest of Europe and the World to come up with organised resettlement programmes for Syrians (and others) and accept that this will mean our country changing.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 12, 2015)

delc said:



			Apparently Islamic State do intend to infiltrate some of their Jehadists among the "refugees"!
		
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Do intend to? They clearly stated that objective many months ago - and are now claiming mission accomplished. 

I posted my concerns and was criticized for my lack of compassion. It now transpires that the 'poor' father of the dead child, we were so moved by, may in fact be one of the people traffickers and was the one who was in command of the boat.

Be compassionate all you like but there are two basic rules to life

Rule 1 - Trust no one.

Rule 2 - NO one.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I predict that by 2020 we will have taken in 100,000 refugees from Syria.   I think we might as well face up to the fact that Europe including the UK have neglected and agitated in the Middle East for decades and the chickens are now coming home to roost.  The region is a mess.  There are many millions of people with their lives at threat and living in ruined or destroyed towns and cities.  And they have had enough.  Who can blame folk for trying to escape that - I would - and I'd try to go somewhere safe.  

I think we are going to have to face up to the situation that means we cannot in the UK sit Canute-like hoping this wave of refugees somehow stops or someone else will sort it and look after them.  The rather unpalatable truth is that our rather cosy live in the UK is going to have to change over the next five years and it may never be the same again.  So surely it is best that we accept the situation as it presents itself and coordinate with the rest of Europe and the World to come up with organised resettlement programmes for Syrians (and others) and accept that this will mean our country changing.
		
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SILH, cannot disagree with a word you have said but, and it's a massive but. Would the situation change if the UK decides to pull out of the EU ?

Would the UK decide its own refugee policy ?

thoughts please me man.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Do intend to? They clearly stated that objective many months ago - and are now claiming mission accomplished. 

I posted my concerns and was criticized for my lack of compassion. It now transpires that the 'poor' father of the dead child, we were so moved by, may in fact be one of the people traffickers and was the one who was in command of the boat.

Be compassionate all you like but there are two basic rules to life

*Rule 1 - Trust no one*.

Rule 2 - NO one.
		
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That to me seems a sad way to lead your life.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 13, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That to me seems a sad way to lead your life.
		
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No sadder than the lives being led by people that have been lied to from the cradle.  

The problems we face are due to lies and force fed beliefs.

Why *do* we lie to our children?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, cannot disagree with a word you have said but, and it's a massive but. Would the situation change if the UK decides to pull out of the EU ?

Would the UK decide its own refugee policy ?

thoughts please me man.
		
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Policy is one thing - but the practicalities around stopping refugees coming to the UK are massive.  Out of the EU on grounds of limiting immigration and we might find ourselves living in a fortress UK - a 'gated' country.  And that's going to be a bundle of laughs and make us really popular throughout the rest of Europe.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			No sadder than the lives being led by people that have been lied to from the cradle.  

The problems we face are due to lies and force fed beliefs.

Why *do* we lie to our children?
		
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Eh ?! What the hell does that mean


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 13, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh ?! What the hell does that mean
		
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santa claus, tooth fairy and all other religions, beliefs, prejudices etc.

No one makes this crap up themselves, it is based on what they have been TOLD by others, people they *trust* - parents and elders.
We need to stop this purveying of crap, at source, if we want a peaceful world. 

Stop telling kids lies - at home, at school, in churches/mosques and the like.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 13, 2015)

can we go back on topic, please

feel free to start a Richard Dawkins type thread if you want


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, cannot disagree with a word you have said but, and it's a massive but. Would the situation change if the UK decides to pull out of the EU ?

Would the UK decide its own refugee policy ?

thoughts please me man.
		
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Also my feeling is that no matter whether we are in EU or not - and no matter what the current policy may be - in 5 yrs time there *will* be 100,000 Syrians in the UK.  

And no matter what Europe does, the exodus from Syria to Europe will continue for years.  The pressure on the rest of Europe will be such that we will simply *have *to accommodate this sort of numbers - whether we like it or not.  My feeling is then that we have to answer very quickly the question on how we get from 216 Syrians in the UK today, to 100,000 5 yrs down the line in the most organised and painless way - spreading the load across the country.


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2015)

Interesting. Germany now imposing boarder checks on its boarder with Austrian. Wonder how long it will be before Austria do it with its eastern boarders.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 13, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			can we go back on topic, please

feel free to start a Richard Dawkins type thread if you want
		
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Sorry Phil, no intent to go all 'Dawkins'.

However, if we are going to be obliged take migrants, I would have no problem with children and women forming the mainstream. Hopefully children that could benefit from an appropriate education, unfettered by creed. 

Problem is, the people we are being asked to accommodate are of a religion proven to bring up their children with a disregard for the culture of their host nation.

If we are to be compassionate, it must come with conditions. No indoctrination of children, no separatist society and no demands for rights purely on religious grounds. 

Fat chance


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## c1973 (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Sorry Phil, no intent to go all 'Dawkins'.

However, if we are going to be obliged take migrants, I would have no problem with children and women forming the mainstream. Hopefully children that could benefit from an appropriate education, unfettered by creed. 

Problem is,* the people we are being asked to accommodate are of a religion proven to bring up their children with a disregard for the culture of their host nation.*

If we are to be compassionate, it must come with conditions. No indoctrination of children, no separatist society and no demands for rights purely on religious grounds. 

Fat chance  

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This could be good.


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## Foxholer (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			...Hopefully children that could benefit from an appropriate education, unfettered by creed. 
...
		
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You mean 'could have our own indoctrination applied to them'!



The Green Fairy said:



			...
If we are to be compassionate, it must come with conditions. No indoctrination of children, no separatist society and no demands for rights purely on religious grounds. 

Fat chance  

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That's not compassion; that's selection!

After all, those conditions don't (currently) apply to existing inhabitants!

The only conditions that could possibly be required are that they agree to be law-abiding. That's all we require of existing inhabitants!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 13, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			can we go back on topic, please

feel free to start a Richard Dawkins type thread if you want
		
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Difficult to have a proper discussion if we are ignoring one of the root causes of the instability in the Middle East that has triggered the migration.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 13, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Also my feeling is that no matter whether we are in EU or not - and no matter what the current policy may be - in 5 yrs time there *will* be 100,000 Syrians in the UK.  

And no matter what Europe does, the exodus from Syria to Europe will continue for years.  The pressure on the rest of Europe will be such that we will simply *have *to accommodate this sort of numbers - whether we like it or not.  My feeling is then that we have to answer very quickly the question on how we get from 216 Syrians in the UK today, to 100,000 5 yrs down the line in the most organised and painless way - spreading the load across the country.
		
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Reason I asked was I read the other day that the EU ( finally) has come up with figures that it would like each country affiliated to the EU to take. Whether they do or not time will tell. I was gobsmacked to see that the UK was one of four countries that did not have a quota ( coz it has opted out ? ). So at the mo it's not obliged to take any, but will and should.

have a feeling it's getting a bit ugly in Serbia, Hungary and Austrian borders and will only get worse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Sorry Phil, no intent to go all 'Dawkins'.

However, if we are going to be obliged take migrants, I would have no problem with children and women forming the mainstream. Hopefully children that could benefit from an appropriate education, unfettered by creed. 

Problem is, the people we are being asked to accommodate are of a religion proven to bring up their children with a disregard for the culture of their host nation.

If we are to be compassionate, it must come with conditions. No indoctrination of children, no separatist society and no demands for rights purely on religious grounds. 

Fat chance  

Click to expand...

Extremely generic and just lumps every religious person together 

There is a place in the world for people to have faith and believe in a form of religion - the majority of people who are religious are peaceful

There is a damn sight amount of kids and adults brought up in religious families with no issues at all.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 13, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Extremely generic and just lumps every religious person together 

There is a place in the world for people to have faith and believe in a form of religion - *the majority of people who are religious are peaceful
*

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You sure?

I would argue that the majority of people who are religious are the protagonists, maybe not individually but by quiet acceptance.
If you are not part of the solution, you *are* part of the problem. This applies to sectarian problems everywhere.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			You sure?

I would argue that the majority of people who are religious are the protagonists, maybe not individually but by quiet acceptance.
If you are not part of the solution, you *are* part of the problem. This applies to sectarian problems everywhere.
		
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Again it's all generics and certainly aimed at religion being the root of all evil.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 13, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again it's all generics and certainly aimed at religion being the root of all evil.
		
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Precisely!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Precisely!
		
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But it's not true though is it.

Religion isn't and never will be the issue 

Millions upon millions have religion in their lives and live a peaceful life

It will always be people own interpretation of words 

But far more other issues cause more problems these days - greed and power being the two main ones.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it's not true though is it.

Religion isn't and never will be the issue 

Millions upon millions have religion in their lives and live a peaceful life

It will always be people own interpretation of words 

But far more other issues cause more problems these days - greed and power being the two main ones.
		
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Thankyou LP - I struggle to respond and so don't


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Reason I asked was I read the other day that the EU ( finally) has come up with figures that it would like each country affiliated to the EU to take. Whether they do or not time will tell. I was gobsmacked to see that the UK was one of four countries that did not have a quota ( coz it has opted out ? ). So at the mo it's not obliged to take any, but will and should.

*have a feeling it's getting a bit ugly in Serbia, Hungary and Austrian borders and will only get worse*.
		
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Add to that southern Italy and southern Spain. Been on a local residents forum for the area of southern Spain we hope to move to --- yes, that'll make us migrants too. One of the posts on the site highlighted the riots that are going on in southern Europe. Town and city centres being smashed up. Wonder when we'll get that in Britain?

Why aren't the BBC showing these riots?


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## bluewolf (Sep 14, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Add to that southern Italy and southern Spain. Been on a local residents forum for the area of southern Spain we hope to move to --- yes, that'll make us migrants too. One of the posts on the site highlighted the riots that are going on in southern Europe. Town and city centres being smashed up. Wonder when we'll get that in Britain?

Why aren't the BBC showing these riots?
		
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I've just had a look on the web and can't find any reference to riots in Southern Europe. There's a story about a riot in a Moscow Suburb.. I'd be quite interested in a link to these riots as my sister lives in Southern Spain and I'd like to let her know...


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## Tashyboy (Sep 14, 2015)

For those that havefollowed my views on this topic I have banged on a bit about the EU trying to sort something out. Which it appears it is now trying to do.

i think this crisis will bring out the best and worst in people.

Flicking through Sky website last night and was sickened to see photos of an Hungarian woman news reporter who was filming Syrian refugees. There were photos of her kicking refugees trying to flee from the police. There was a photo of her tripping up a guy who was carrying a child and various other photos. She has been sacked by her TV employees. Not good at all.


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2015)

Yesterday there were riots in Hamburg, the BBC have now taken the piece down.


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## bluewolf (Sep 14, 2015)

I know there were demonstrations in Hamburg on Saturday, but that was organised by people protesting against Xenophobia.. So if the question is why aren't the BBC highlighting them, then you'd also have to ask why no one else is either?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2015)

What security checks are likely to be performed on the people we take into Britain?


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2015)

drive4show said:



			What security checks are likely to be performed on the people we take into Britain?
		
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If they are coming from the recognized UN Centres in the Middle East as much as is possible when dealing with displaced people, if we're going to adopt the EU model - very little.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			If they are coming from the recognized UN Centres in the Middle East as much as is possible when dealing with displaced people, if we're going to adopt the EU model - very little.
		
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So basically...it's an open door for terrorists posing as refugees


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2015)

drive4show said:



			So basically...it's an open door for terrorists posing as refugees  

Click to expand...

No change there then. The only sensible thing Cameron said on the subject was we would only take those out of the UN camps, shame he then buckled under public opinion.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			No change there then. The only sensible thing Cameron said on the subject was we would only take those out of the UN camps, shame he then buckled under public opinion.
		
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Cameron has nowt to worry about. Migrants are to be dispersed around the UK depending on local rents, i.e. very few to London and the SE because rents are high, but 1,000's to northern towns and cities because rents are low. NIMBY!


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Cameron has nowt to worry about. Migrants are to be dispersed around the UK depending on local rents, i.e. very few to London and the SE because rents are high, but 1,000's to northern towns and cities because rents are low. NIMBY!
		
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Or do what Birmingham City Council have done and bought up 50 houses in North Devon, I wonder who there for.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Or do what Birmingham City Council have done and bought up 50 houses in North Devon, I wonder who there for.
		
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Probably to seperate the Somalians that rioted in a block of flats recently. Two seperate factions from the civil war thrown together in the same block of flats... good job Brum Council know what they're doing.


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Probably to seperate the Somalians that rioted in a block of flats recently. Two seperate factions from the civil war thrown together in the same block of flats... good job Brum Council know what they're doing.
		
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Give the Royals some one to play with if they step out of line.


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## c1973 (Sep 14, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Probably to seperate the Somalians that rioted in a block of flats recently. Two seperate factions from the civil war thrown together in the same block of flats... good job Brum Council know what they're doing.
		
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Yet, we are to believe they are fleeing violence because they are peacable folks. :smirk:


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## Tashyboy (Sep 15, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Probably to seperate the Somalians that rioted in a block of flats recently. Two seperate factions from the civil war thrown together in the same block of flats... good job Brum Council know what they're doing.
		
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Well well well. I talked about this subject earlier in this blog about the same happening in Leicester ( two differant Somalian factions put together ) and was lambasted by some as my take on what had happened being iffy. 

I did did not know this had happened in Birmingham and take no pleasure in being proved correct.


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## USER1999 (Sep 15, 2015)

Maybe the Russians will fix everything with their tanks on the ground in Syria.


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Yesterday there were riots in Hamburg, the BBC have now taken the piece down.
		
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bluewolf said:



			I know there were demonstrations in Hamburg on Saturday, but that was organised by people protesting against Xenophobia.. So if the question is why aren't the BBC highlighting them, then you'd also have to ask why no one else is either?
		
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This is the only thing visible about anything in Hamburg recently. No riots - just demos against the 'far right'!

There was an article about riots in Hamburg dated 13th September - but that was in 2009!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			This is the only thing visible about anything in Hamburg recently. No riots - just demos against the 'far right'!

There was an article about riots in *Hamburg dated 13th September - but that was in 2009*!!!
		
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Was *this* the one accompanied by a photo of some guy waving an ISIS flag in front of a load of police?  That had the attached headline _'And so it begins - ISIS Flag Among Refugees in Germany Fighting the Police'_


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was *this* the one accompanied by a photo of some guy waving an ISIS flag in front of a load of police?  That had the attached headline _'And so it begins - ISIS Flag Among Refugees in Germany Fighting the Police'_

Click to expand...

I don't believe so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe so.
		
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This is the one that has been circulating - at least at couple of years old and nothing to do with refugees.

http://news360.com/article/311820821


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2015)

And so Hungary puts the fences up and thousands of Syrians are stuck in Serbia with many more 10s of thousands heading in their way.  Now what?


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## c1973 (Sep 15, 2015)

Maybe they'll stop when in Turkey? Or Greece? Or Albania? Or Romania? Or Bulgaria?


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## Old Skier (Sep 15, 2015)

Amir Khan taking a convoy of food and equipment to Lesbos. Why can't he use his head and just go to Lesbos with money instead of goods and buy everything there.

Help the Greeks, help the refugees and save a fortune on fuel and transport.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Amir Khan taking a convoy of food and equipment to Lesbos. Why can't he use his head and just go to Lesbos with money instead of goods and buy everything there.

Help the Greeks, help the refugees and save a fortune on fuel and transport.
		
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Because as much as what you say makes sense, he's taking donated stuff from the public, he's not purchased it all. Simply the figurehead


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## Old Skier (Sep 15, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Because as much as what you say makes sense, he's taking donated stuff from the public, he's not purchased it all. Simply the figurehead
		
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And there lies the problem when people set up their own charity/welfare help. Main established charities will prefer cash or items that they can sell.

Cash ensures the correct and needed food and equipment can be purchased.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			And there lies the problem when people set up their own charity/welfare help. Main established charities will prefer cash or items that they can sell.

Cash ensures the correct and needed food and equipment can be purchased.
		
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Probably correct, but still credit to him and the people who donated, not sure the main charities can cope.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2015)

And so in my _*i*_ newspaper this morning I read a letter (from John in Woking) in which he finishes up with the question

_Why do the "refugees" include a high proportion of young, able-bodied men? _

Oh dear.


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## londonlewis (Sep 17, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so in my _*i*_ newspaper this morning I read a letter (from John in Woking) in which he finishes up with the question

_Why do the "refugees" include a high proportion of young, able-bodied men? _

Oh dear.
		
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If a huge civil war broke out in the UK, I'd be screwed with that mentality. I'm 32, so I like to consider myself to be young. I'd also like to consider myself to be able-bodied. And I am definitely male.


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## c1973 (Sep 17, 2015)

I'd like to think I'd lay down my life fighting for what I believe to be right if civil war broke out in the UK. Not flee to a foreign country. Some things in life are, or should be, bigger than the individual. 



You never know until it happens though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Maybe they'll stop when in Turkey? Or Greece? Or Albania? Or Romania? Or Bulgaria?
		
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I don't think the refugees are going to stop.  Europe is going to have to accommodate them somehow - and it's going to be painful.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 17, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			And there lies the problem when people set up their own charity/welfare help. *Main established charities will prefer cash or items that they can sell.
*
*Cash ensures the correct and needed food and equipment can be purchased*.
		
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. . . and that they can deduct their 50% expenses.


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think the refugees are going to stop.  Europe is going to have to accommodate them somehow - and it's going to be painful.
		
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Why, this is a world problem, not a Europe one. Seems very strange that those fleeing from places to protect their families are so selective on where they go. Why do they put their families in further danger by continuing to move once they are in a safe country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Why, this is a world problem, not a Europe one. Seems very strange that those fleeing from places to protect their families are so selective on where they go. Why do they put their families in further danger by continuing to move once they are in a safe country.
		
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It may be a world problem and we may not understand why 'they' should keep coming and move from one country to another.  But I have little doubt that they *will *continue to come, and Europe will have to deal with it.  And I am convinced that no matter what the UK gov might think and what the UK public might deem 'acceptable' - we will have to take a LOT more than 4,000 refugees a year for the next 5 yrs.  And so we (in the UK) might as well get used to the idea and start working and planning with the rest of the EU to accommodate greater numbers.  Or we can stick our head in the sand and be in denial and try and cope with chaos.


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2015)

The extras can go to Surrey then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			The extras can go to Surrey then.
		
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And all over the UK.


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And all over the UK.
		
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Not keen then.  The rate things are going up north we need to save some places for all those Scots who haven't moved here already as I'm sure that there are going to be thousands moving south to apply for asylum.


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## c1973 (Sep 19, 2015)

on the beeb this morning saying 4/5ths of refugees are not from Syria after all.


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## The Green Fairy (Sep 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			on the beeb this morning saying 4/5ths of refugees are not from Syria after all.
		
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Am I the only one who isn't surprised.


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## Beezerk (Sep 19, 2015)

The Green Fairy said:



			Am I the only one who isn't surprised.
		
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Nope.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I am convinced that no matter what the UK gov might think and what the UK public might deem 'acceptable' - we will have to take a LOT more than 4,000 refugees a year for the next 5 yrs.
		
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And who is it that's going to force the UK and its people to take a LOT more than they feel the country can cope with.  Feel free to clarify your statement.


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## MarkE (Sep 19, 2015)

Interesting that the first major issue to confront the EU since it's inception and it's in chaos, with every nation for themselves. What happened to the big happy family?  Regarding where the refugees would be settled in the UK, it will be all the usual places. I'm in Ipswich, which has obviously been designated a resettlement area. All this does is create pockets of different nationalities and very limited integration. The refugees ( and immigrants) should definitely be more evenly distributed but it won't happen.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2015)

MarkE said:



			The refugees ( and immigrants) should definitely be more evenly distributed but it won't happen.
		
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The ratios of how many go where have already been 'posted.' The distribution is based on local rent prices. Guess the posh end of Surrey will be fine...


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## MarkE (Sep 19, 2015)

I did'nt know the ratios had already been set. It's the NIMBY mentality again, all are welcome as long as it's not near me. I'm not totally convinced it's based on rental prices either. Ipswich is
one of the more expensive places to rent in East Anglia but has a massive immigrant population (compared to other local towns/cities).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			And who is it that's going to force the UK and its people to take a LOT more than they feel the country can cope with.  Feel free to clarify your statement.
		
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I just think that that's how it's going to be. A numbers game that we won't be able to resist.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just think that that's how it's going to be. A numbers game that we won't be able to resist.
		
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But you said we WILL, not that's what you think and I was just wondering what that was based on.

Now you have changed to I think, you may, or may not be right.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

And so as Trump and Bolton build towards military action in Syria and word has it that UK and France will be asked to join in - are we ready to increase our commitments on resettling Syrian refugees.   11,000 resettled out of our 20,000 commitment is good though not spectacular progress.  Looking forward to the Daily Mail take on any proposed increase.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/syrian-refugees-uk/


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## Tashyboy (Apr 10, 2018)

SILH, am all for taking in refugees but how many like the minors ( 18 and under ) that were actually adults will we be taking in. If it is done correctly and out of those 11,000, 11,000 are genuine then it's fine BT me.


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, am all for taking in refugees but how many like the minors ( 18 and under ) that were actually adults will we be taking in. If it is done correctly and out of those 11,000, 11,000 are genuine then it's fine BT me.
		
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I'm with you on this.

The issues need to be managed. 

There are large costs associated with a diverse workforce. Managing a multilingual staff base is complex and many companies with a significant number of foreign employees are now just recruiting from the majority language. (I'm talking about the real-world not the idealised PC environment of the Race Commission). Consequently in agriculture, the building trade, warehousing etc its common for a manager to be appointed that represent the majority (linguistically). I have seen numerous adverts written in Polish which obviously and unsurprisingly attracts Poles.

Such selective practises activities breeds discontent. So while in humanitarian terms we should do what we can the process needs to address the pragmatic on-the-ground consequences.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, am all for taking in refugees but how many like the minors ( 18 and under ) that were actually adults will we be taking in. If it is done correctly and out of those 11,000, 11,000 are genuine then it's fine BT me.
		
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The 20,000 did not actually include our commitment to resettling 3,000 children from the region - though I do wonder why a very small minority 'over-age' coming in under the 'Children' programme would be that much of a concern when we are taking 20,000 - and possibly even more - under the main programme.  The sort of numbers 'playing ' the children programme shouldn't make that much of a difference as long as we remain aware that some are trying it on and filter them out - which by and large is what has been happening.

And so it seems like we'll be happy to resettle more genuine Syrian refugees if we get involved with the US in possible military action?  which IMO would be the right hing to do.


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