# Hearts v Rangers



## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2016)

Should be a good game tonight on BT Sport.

Hearts manager Neilson on his way to MK Dons, strange move. Not very ambitious.
I suppose he wants to make a name for himself in England. He is a long term builder and should have chosen a club that is more loyal to it's managers.

Looks like we are getting Ian Cathro as a replacement, quite happy with that. Very young at 30 though.


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## wrighty1874 (Nov 30, 2016)

Where's he from? Would have liked Hartley or Pressley.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2016)

wrighty1874 said:



			Where's he from? Would have liked Hartley or Pressley.
		
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Newcastle, he has a great record and lots of experience for a young coach.
He worked very well with Levien at Dundee United producing a string of very good young players.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sp...uniteds-ian-cathro-to-replace-robbie-neilson/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2016)

Mon the Jam Tarts


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## williamalex1 (Nov 30, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mon the Jam Tarts
		
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Thought you supported St Johnstone :smirk:


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## DCB (Nov 30, 2016)

Don't  see this as a great move for Robbie. He has done exceptionally well since he was appointed. I must admit I didn't  think he was the right man when he was appointed, but, he has worked wonders on a limited budget. If he had another couple of good years he may well have had a chance at a Championship side down South, but, maybe he thinks he's  done what he can on a tight budget at Tynecastle. 

Big task for whoever comes in to take his place, a high expectation level demanded by the fans now.


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## Val (Nov 30, 2016)

Neilson will be out of a job by this time next year unfortunately, cant blame him chasing the dough but he'd be best staying put.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 30, 2016)

Just shows how far our football has fallen that the manager of one of our top clubs can be lured away to such a low level of football.


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## Val (Nov 30, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Just shows how far our football has fallen that the manager of one of our top clubs can be lured away to such a low level of football. 

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Correct, although Celtic really did pull a rabbit out a hat with Rodgers appointment. 

Back early 2000's Rangers and Celtic had 2 of the most saught after managers in Europe and back in 2011 we had 2 ex players at the helm with no managerial experience. Warburton would never even have been on the radar of Rangers all things equal with the early 2000's


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Thought you supported St Johnstone :smirk:
		
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I do...doesn't stop me wanting Hearts to beat The Rangers


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 30, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do...doesn't stop me wanting Hearts to beat The Rangers 

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Hopefully the rangers will remember the way to goal tonight. It's been painful watching them dominate possession without looking like scoring....


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## shewy (Nov 30, 2016)

He's done a great job at Hearts, hopefully he will do well in England, never seems to transfer well though.
Mon the jam tarts btw


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## williamalex1 (Nov 30, 2016)

A well deserved victory for Hearts, but guess who didn't get to interview Warburton after the game.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			A well deserved victory for Hearts, but guess who didn't get to interview Warburton after the game.
		
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:whoo::clap:


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## williamalex1 (Nov 30, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			:whoo::clap:
		
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Could be Neilsons last game at Hearts and Hogans last game at Bellshill :rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Could be Neilsons last game at Hearts and Hogans last game at Bellshill :rofl:
		
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Ach I doubt it - you'd relish the opportunity to empty my pockets of a few bob


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## williamalex1 (Dec 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ach I doubt it - you'd relish the opportunity to empty my pockets of a few bob 

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You better start saving then Hugh  , Awe the best to you and Helen, hope to see you next year.:cheers:


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## Slab (Dec 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hopefully the rangers will remember the way to goal tonight. It's been painful watching them dominate possession without looking like scoring....
		
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Well on the plus side for you, they didn't draw blank in front of goal while dominating possession!
:whoo:


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2016)

Slab said:



			Well on the plus side for you, they didn't draw blank in front of goal while dominating possession!
:whoo:
		
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Yeah not quite the solution I was hoping for to that particular problem. Still painful viewing for long-suffering gers fans!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			You better start saving then Hugh  , Awe the best to you and Helen, hope to see you next year.:cheers:
		
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:thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2016)

Hearts two new USA players, striker and midfielder look like great signings........both free to a good home.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

This genuinely is not intended as a dig!

Having followed football since late 50's when the standard seemed pretty comparable either side of the border but getting little opportunity to see Scottish clubs other than Celtic in the CL I watched this game last night.

Based upon league positions these are two of the best sides in Scotland but I have to say the standard amazed me, I follow a club in the English Championship and would have to say that, from what I saw, neither Hearts nor Rangers would cut it in that league.

What I am asking was last night a one-off or typical of current day top Scottish club football? I appreciate the difference in financial strength between the EPL and the SPL but I am talking about the second tier of English football.

Has Scottish football really fallen that far?


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			This genuinely is not intended as a dig!

Having followed football since late 50's when the standard seemed pretty comparable either side of the border but getting little opportunity to see Scottish clubs other than Celtic in the CL I watched this game last night.

Based upon league positions these are two of the best sides in Scotland but I have to say the standard amazed me, I follow a club in the English Championship and would have to say that, from what I saw, neither Hearts nor Rangers would cut it in that league.

What I am asking was last night a one-off or typical of current day top Scottish club football? I appreciate the difference in financial strength between the EPL and the SPL but I am talking about the second tier of English football.

Has Scottish football really fallen that far?
		
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I think you might be underestimating the financial differences between the SPFL and the Championship.

Celtic apart, no-one else in Scotland can get anywhere near the wages on offer in the Championship. The bigger SPFL clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts etc. are now competing with League 1 clubs financially for players and the wages they can pay.

Rangers are in a particularly tricky situation at the moment with the crooks that were in charge selling everything not screwed down to Ashley for basically nothing, the most recent example to come to light was Ashley getting a 10 year agreement to take over the Rangers club store at Ibrox for Â£10 i.e. Â£1 a year.

In summary, yes it really has fallen that far...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

ger147 said:



			I think you might be underestimating the financial differences between the SPFL and the Championship..
		
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Clearly I hadn't realised the difference was so great, the money that Celtic will receive from the CL will surely help them but widen the gap between them and the remainder of Scotland.

As for dodgy dealings I know all about that, I am a Birmingham City supporter. If you don't already know about him Google Carson Yeung.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			This genuinely is not intended as a dig!

Having followed football since late 50's when the standard seemed pretty comparable either side of the border but getting little opportunity to see Scottish clubs other than Celtic in the CL I watched this game last night.

Based upon league positions these are two of the best sides in Scotland but I have to say the standard amazed me, I follow a club in the English Championship and would have to say that, from what I saw, neither Hearts nor Rangers would cut it in that league.

What I am asking was last night a one-off or typical of current day top Scottish club football? I appreciate the difference in financial strength between the EPL and the SPL but I am talking about the second tier of English football.

Has Scottish football really fallen that far?
		
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Fair assessment ....as Ger says money counts and within the UK, Bournemouth with a ground capacity of 11,000 are considerably richer than Celtic with a ground capacity 60,000.
The BBC spends more money on Gary Linecar's contract than their entire coverage of Scottish football.
BT Sport are at least giving Scotland some coverage, even though they are paying a pittance for it.

Not a flat playing field.

If you look at the record of Scottish clubs v English Clubs in European Competition you may see a closer comparison.
Celtic v Man City is an example, plus a very young Hearts team being the only club in the whole wide world to take a point against Spurs at home two or three years ago. Liverpool also really struggled against a young Hearts the following year.

Hearts v Rangers was a good game. Both sides going for a win and nae tippy tappy stuff.:lol:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Fair assessment ....as Ger says money counts and within the UK, Bournemouth with a ground capacity of 11,000 are considerably richer than Celtic with a ground capacity 60,000.
The BBC spends more money on Gary Linecar's contract than their entire coverage of Scottish football.
BT Sport are at least giving Scotland some coverage, even though they are paying a pittance for it.

Not a flat playing field.

If you look at the record of Scottish clubs v English Clubs in European Competition you may see a closer comparison.
Celtic v Man City is an example, plus a very young Hearts team being the only club in the whole wide world to take a point against Spurs at home two or three years ago. Liverpool also really struggled against a young Hearts the following year.

Hearts v Rangers was a good game. Both sides going for a win and nae tippy tappy stuff.:lol:
		
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Supply and demand 

Some of the best players in the world play in the Prem and people all over the world want to watch those players - the whole world doesn't want to watch Scottish Prem


It's nonsense to use one of games years ago as some marker to suggest the standard is closer when it's not - it clearly isn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Supply and demand 

Some of the best players in the world play in the Prem and people all over the world want to watch those players - the whole world doesn't want to watch Scottish Prem


It's nonsense to use one of games years ago as some marker to suggest the standard is closer when it's not - it clearly isn't.
		
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Wasn't that long ago.......... Phil. 5/6 years?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19352805


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hearts v Rangers was a good game. Both sides going for a win and nae tippy tappy stuff.:lol:
		
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I agree that there was an element of excitement but the standard of the football was pretty poor.

However, as with anything, you get what you pay for and if Scottish clubs are so financially constrained I suppose it has to be accepted. It's just not how I remember it.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree that there was an element of excitement but the standard of the football was pretty poor.

However, as with anything, you get what you pay for and if Scottish clubs are so financially constrained I suppose it has to be accepted. It's just not how I remember it.
		
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It's painful how far our game has fallen. There's much more to it than this but the stupid money in English football has been quite detrimental to ours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wasn't that long ago.......... Phil. 5/6 years?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19352805

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Makes zero difference - it's still one off games , Barce got beat the other day by a lowly team , does that make the gap between the two smaller ? Bayern got beat by a Ukraine team - does that mean the two leagues are closer 

No it's one off games - right now the top team in Scotland would do well to reach the play offs in the Championship 

The gap between the two leagues is not close


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree that there was an element of excitement but the standard of the football was pretty poor.

However, as with anything, you get what you pay for and if Scottish clubs are so financially constrained I suppose it has to be accepted. It's just not how I remember it.
		
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From the highlights I watched I thought it was pretty darned good - for a Scottish football match.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Makes zero difference - it's still one off games , Barce got beat the other day by a lowly team , does that make the gap between the two smaller ? Bayern got beat by a Ukraine team - does that mean the two leagues are closer 

No it's one off games - *right now the top team in Scotland would do well to reach the play offs in the Championship *

The gap between the two leagues is not close
		
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Absolute tosh. The top team in Scotland would horse half the Premiership week in week out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Absolute tosh. The top team in Scotland would horse half the Premiership week in week out.
		
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Not based upon their CL performances.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Not based upon their CL performances.
		
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Didn't they draw with one of the favourites to win the PL?

I don't agree they'd horse half the premiership but they'd hold their own and wouldn't be relegated. The rest of our teams, however, would struggle!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Absolute tosh. The top team in Scotland would horse half the Premiership week in week out.
		
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I would certainly agree with that.
Rodgers is making some astute signings, keeping faith in the young players and building a good team.

Surprised that the League Cup was his first ever trophy as a manager.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Didn't they draw with one of the favourites to win the PL?

I don't agree they'd horse half the premiership but they'd hold their own and wouldn't be relegated. The rest of our teams, however, would struggle!
		
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They would perhaps just avoid the drop although I would have to fear for any team that still uses Leigh Griffiths.

 As for the rest they would struggle to survive in the Championship, after all I know who is manager of Killie.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Absolute tosh. The top team in Scotland would horse half the Premiership week in week out.
		
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Celtic would easily hold their own in the PL. Whether they could get top 4 or even Europa League (and surely their fans crave/expect European football on a regular basis) is a different argument. I think they'll struggle to hold onto Dembele but Rodgers does seem to slowly be building a reasonable squad


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Celtic would easily hold their own in the PL. Whether they could get top 4 or even Europa League (and surely their fans crave/expect European football on a regular basis) is a different argument. I think they'll struggle to hold onto Dembele but Rodgers does seem to slowly be building a reasonable squad
		
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Don't watch much Scottish football then Homer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Absolute tosh. The top team in Scotland would horse half the Premiership week in week out.
		
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Sorry but not in a million years for me - there is prob one Prem Standard player - Dembele and even he arrived from a champ club. Looking at the squad it just says Championship players with one or two like Tierny having potential. 

They would no doubt attract better players down in the English so would get to the Prem at some stage


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Don't watch much Scottish football then Homer?
		
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Only what little we get fed down here. Look at the dross in the lower quarter of the PL and Celtic would be good enough to beat those sides week in week out. It's whether they could compete for trophies that would be the issue. As it stands, they are head and shoulders above anything else in the SPL and the longer that carries on the worse they'll be on a European stage without regular competition to test them


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

This conversation always makes me smile with English football fans pointing out how rubbish Scottish football is and Scottish fans agreeing, then English fans emphasising their point.  We know 

Celtic would be OK in the Premier League I think, there is some real dross in there despite the money available.  Bottom half/struggling but would be able to compete I think.

Beyond that Aberdeen (my team) would do well to stay up in the Championship and, in fairness, we've been comfortably the second "best" (least worst perhaps) for the last couple of years.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Only what little we get fed down here. Look at the dross in the lower quarter of the PL and Celtic would be good enough to beat those sides week in week out. It's whether they could compete for trophies that would be the issue. As it stands, they are head and shoulders above anything else in the SPL and the longer that carries on the worse they'll be on a European stage without regular competition to test them
		
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Just have a look at their squad.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Not based upon their CL performances.
		
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Really? 2 loses to Barca which are expected, 1 loss and 1 draw with the Germans and currently undefeated against City.


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2016)

Celtic would have no problem staying in the Prem, but mid table. Would they really want to do that and miss out on the CL money they get now. Aberdeen; having watched Middlesbrough in recent seasons and been to Aberdeen this season they would struggle in the championship let alone the Prem. Rangers...lololol... a few signings away from being there, and they'll attract the money to achieve that but if they were in the Prem now they'd be relegated.

When you think of the stars of the past, and the great Home International games... hopefully those days will return but I doubt it.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but not in a million years for me - there is prob one Prem Standard player - Dembele and even he arrived from a champ club. Looking at the squad it just says Championship players with one or two like Tierny having potential. 

They would no doubt attract better players down in the English so would get to the Prem at some stage
		
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Nonsense and lots of it. Rogic, Sviatchenko, Simovic, Lustig, Boyata, Sinclair, Dembele could all get gigs in the Premiership easily. All bat Sinclair are international quality players.

The one thing you need to remember about Celtic is the support, it attracts players. Celtic in the Premiership with the riches it brings could easily compete at the top end of the table. Their annual turnover without CL football is around Â£40m and about Â£2m of that comes from TV. Take TV money down to the same level in England and there will likely only be 2 or 3 teams who could generate that commercial value.


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## wrighty1874 (Dec 1, 2016)

The lack of money in the Scottish game has really been highlighted this week when the manager of the 3rd or 4th biggest club in Scotland looks like he's heading to a team with an average crowd of 9000 and on the 3rd tier of the English league. He'll probably treble his earnings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

It's a non-argument in my opinion, comparing like for like currently is a waste of time, if the Scottish teams had had access over recent years to the money the PL teams had then of course they would be competitive, you could replace Scottish teams with Dutch/Belgian and even French teams to a degree, they all have top teams that could compete in the PL but 3/4's of their leagues would struggle in the championship.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's a non-argument in my opinion, comparing like for like currently is a waste of time, if the Scottish teams had had access over recent years to the money the PL teams had then of course they would be competitive, you could replace Scottish teams with Dutch/Belgian and even French teams to a degree, they all have top teams that could compete in the PL but 3/4's of their leagues would struggle in the championship.
		
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Spot on


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Supply and demand 

*Some of the best players in the world play in the Prem and people all over the world want to watch those players* - the whole world doesn't want to watch Scottish Prem


It's nonsense to use one of games years ago as some marker to suggest the standard is closer when it's not - it clearly isn't.
		
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You really are a child of the Sky/EPL generation Phil.

That very much wasn't the case pre PL cash in English football and has never, and probably will never, be the case with the Scottish PL!!

Overall the standard of the Scottish PL even back then was worse than the old First Division, but the top teams were closer than they are now.  Purely due to the cash and ability to attract better players by the top teams in the PL.


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's a non-argument in my opinion, comparing like for like currently is a waste of time, if the Scottish teams had had access over recent years to the money the PL teams had then of course they would be competitive, you could replace Scottish teams with Dutch/Belgian and even French teams to a degree, they all have top teams that could compete in the PL but 3/4's of their leagues would struggle in the championship.
		
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:thup:

/end_thread


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Nonsense and lots of it. Rogic, Sviatchenko, Simovic, Lustig, Boyata, Sinclair, Dembele could all get gigs in the Premiership easily. All bat Sinclair are international quality players.

The one thing you need to remember about Celtic is the support, it attracts players. Celtic in the Premiership with the riches it brings could easily compete at the top end of the table. Their annual turnover without CL football is around Â£40m and about Â£2m of that comes from TV. Take TV money down to the same level in England and there will likely only be 2 or 3 teams who could generate that commercial value.
		
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There are plenty of teams in the Championship with the same level of international player - the championship teams are full of international players but that doesn't make them all good enough to play in the Prem. 

Yes because of the money they could generate they would attract the better players over time which would move them from Championship to mid table Prem but even then it wouldn't be the top players . But for me right now that squad looks to me to be a Championship squad


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's a non-argument in my opinion, comparing like for like currently is a waste of time, if the Scottish teams had had access over recent years to the money the PL teams had then of course they would be competitive, you could replace Scottish teams with Dutch/Belgian and even French teams to a degree, they all have top teams that could compete in the PL but 3/4's of their leagues would struggle in the championship.
		
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Boom!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Really? 2 loses to Barca which are expected, 1 loss and 1 draw with the Germans and currently undefeated against City.
		
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So that's it then, they are now the equal of Man City. Behave yourself!!

As for some of the players you have listed I would point out that neither Sinclair nor Boyata attracted interest from EPL clubs at the time of joining Celtic. I would, however, agree that if they had the same income as their English counterparts they would become competitive, just not with their current squad.

In any event the original post is more broadly based and referred to the overall strength in the SPL and my surprise at how poor (on last night's performance) the 2nd and 3rd placed teams appeared to be.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Nonsense and lots of it. Rogic, Sviatchenko, Simovic, Lustig, Boyata, Sinclair, Dembele could all get gigs in the Premiership easily. All bat Sinclair are international quality players.

The one thing you need to remember about Celtic is the support, it attracts players. Celtic in the Premiership with the riches it brings could easily compete at the top end of the table. Their annual turnover without CL football is around Â£40m and about Â£2m of that comes from TV. Take TV money down to the same level in England and there will likely only be 2 or 3 teams who could generate that commercial value.
		
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Depending what rumours you listen to, Dembele could well be on the way to the PL in January. He'll be a massive player for whoever he signs for (and he'll go in the summer if not January). I haven't seen enough of the others regularly


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

Some of the greatest players ever to have graced English football have been Scottish and it's very sad that that talent seems to have dwindled.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			You really are a child of the Sky/EPL generation Phil.
		
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I'm very much not a child of the Sky/EPL generation 




			That very much wasn't the case pre PL cash in English football and has never, and probably will never, be the case with the Scottish PL!!
		
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I know it wasn't the case before the Prem league ? But that wasn't the debate though - the Prem does have some of the best players in the world and countries all over the world do spend billions to watch the Prem 




			Overall the standard of the Scottish PL even back then was worse than the old First Division, but the top teams were closer than they are now.  Purely due to the cash and ability to attract better players by the top teams in the PL.
		
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I remember when I was living in Peterhead in the 80's and watching Aberdeen a few times during the Ferguson era and at that time there was a good number of times that were strong - Aberdeen won in Europe , Dundee United in finals and Semi Finals and Celtic and Rangers were also winning titles - far better than right now and yes money is a big reason and no one would disagree with that


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Some of the greatest players ever to have graced English football have been Scottish and it's very sad that that talent seems to have dwindled.
		
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That was very much the point I was making at the outset.

Mind you whilst Scotland may no longer have the likes of Baxter, Law, Bremner etc; England does not have players to match the likes of Moore, Charlton or Greaves.


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Some of the greatest players ever to have graced English football have been Scottish and it's very sad that that talent seems to have dwindled.
		
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Spot on. Where's the next Bremner etc?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Spot on. Where's the next Bremner etc?
		
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Or Dalglish or Gemmill


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			That was very much the point I was making at the outset.

Mind you whilst Scotland may no longer have the likes of Baxter, Law, Bremner etc; England does not have players to match the likes of Moore, Charlton or Greaves.
		
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That depends on your age, Wayne Rooney has out performed Charlton and Greaves in terms of goals and no I don't think he is as good as Charlton.
I only saw them 3 at the end of their career and would argue there have been players that have made a big impact on the English game in recent years.


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			That was very much the point I was making at the outset.

Mind you whilst Scotland may no longer have the likes of Baxter, Law, Bremner etc; England does not have players to match the likes of Moore, Charlton or Greaves.
		
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Being from north of the wall I'm hardly in a position to throw stones, but I don't think England have anything close to a world class player these days.

As for Scotland, I'd struggle to name more than or two Scotland players that would even pass as "decent."

Both situations make me quite sad compared to the standard of player both countries could boast when I was growing up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2016)

Wanyama and Van Dijk are two hot shots in the EPL.....only a couple of years ago they were in the SPL.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Being from north of the wall I'm hardly in a position to throw stones, but I don't think England have anything close to a world class player these days.

As for Scotland, I'd struggle to name more than or two Scotland players that would even pass as "decent."

Both situations make me quite sad compared to the standard of player both countries could boast when I was growing up.
		
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I would agree with you as an England supporter. We have some good players, but how many world class or game changers? The only difference is, the English press still think we are capable of winning the world cup


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are plenty of teams in the Championship with the same level of international player - the championship teams are full of international players but that doesn't make them all good enough to play in the Prem. 

Yes because of the money they could generate they would attract the better players over time which would move them from Championship to mid table Prem but even then it wouldn't be the top players . But for me right now that squad looks to me to be a Championship squad
		
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We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. I'm also sure the current crop at Man City would disagree having let 3 goals sail in past them a few weeks ago. That said, given this Tuesday is now a dead rubber we'll probably take a tanking in Manchester

Are any team in the championship capable of negotiating 6 European qualifiers before their season starts to make the champions league?  

Probably not.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wanyama and Van Dijk are two hot shots in the EPL.....only a couple of years ago they were in the SPL.
		
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Forster also, England's 2nd keeper


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Spot on. Where's the next Bremner etc?
		
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Modern life I'm afraid now Bri, read an article a few years back saying how English scouts would spend weeks travelling around Scotland trying to find the next bunch of stars, now it's videos from abroad or day trips to the continent, the world has become a much smaller place and the recruiting pool is huge.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Depending what rumours you listen to, Dembele could well be on the way to the PL in January. He'll be a massive player for whoever he signs for (and he'll go in the summer if not January). I haven't seen enough of the others regularly
		
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Summer I reckon, not January.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Modern life I'm afraid now Bri, read an article a few years back saying how English scouts would spend weeks travelling around Scotland trying to find the next bunch of stars, now it's videos from abroad or day trips to the continent, the world has become a much smaller place and the recruiting pool is huge.
		
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Scouts just need time and a good DVD player now


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Scouts just need time and a good DVD player now
		
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Agreed Martin, it's to the detriment of the English game as well,


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. I'm also sure the current crop at Man City would disagree having let 3 goals sail in past them a few weeks ago. That said, given this Tuesday is now a dead rubber we'll probably take a tanking in Manchester

Are any team in the championship capable of negotiating 6 European qualifiers before their season starts to make the champions league?  

Probably not.
		
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Did City play their first team against Celtic? Not from kick off they didn't, but Celtic did. Celtic were up for it but City didn't pay them enough respect. And the final group standings tell a more comprehensive story. Man City 8pts, Celtic 2pts...


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Did City play their first team against Celtic? Not from kick off they didn't, but Celtic did. Celtic were up for it but City didn't pay them enough respect. And the final group standings tell a more comprehensive story. Man City 8pts, Celtic 2pts...
		
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They had the big guns out Bri, Stones,  Sterling, Silva and Aguerro all started. 

I don't disagree with the table, our game against the Germans at home has been our killer. We expected nothing from either Barca game


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Forster also, England's 2nd keeper
		
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Not once Butland is fit again.


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



*So that's it then, they are now the equal of Man City. Behave yourself!!*

As for some of the players you have listed I would point out that neither Sinclair nor Boyata attracted interest from EPL clubs at the time of joining Celtic. I would, however, agree that if they had the same income as their English counterparts they would become competitive, just not with their current squad.

In any event the original post is more broadly based and referred to the overall strength in the SPL and my surprise at how poor (on last night's performance) the 2nd and 3rd placed teams appeared to be.
		
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Who said that?!  

I think people's views are distorted by what the PL has become, which was the point I was trying to make to Phil but it's impossible.......

Yes, Scottish football is worse than in previous times but it probably looks even worse because of what the PL has become.  Celtic and Rangers, pre PL, used to be much closer to the top teams in the First Division (probably not as good as but not far off).  Now they are absolutely light years away.

Even at Rangers peak they weren't signing world class players and/or players from the very top of the English game so their level hasn't dropped as far as the top English clubs has increased.


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## shewy (Dec 1, 2016)

As a mad Aberdeen fan I can say Scottish football is rubbish, it does lag behind the EPL, always has, I remember Fergies Dons team playing Liverpool, 4 or 5 - 1 if I recall, but you got to remember England 65M Scotland 5M, bigger pool of players to choose from.
Anyhow IMO if you take out all the foreign players out of the EPL the standard would be a lot lower than that in Spain or Germany so the money certainly distorts the quality there.


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

shewy said:



			As a mad Aberdeen fan I can say Scottish football is rubbish, it does lag behind the EPL, always has, I remember Fergies Dons team playing Liverpool, 4 or 5 - 1 if I recall, but you got to remember England 65M Scotland 5M, bigger pool of players to choose from.
Anyhow IMO if you take out all the foreign players out of the EPL the standard would be a lot lower than that in Spain or Germany so the money certainly distorts the quality there.
		
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Trust another Don to post some common sense 

Still, don't let the English fans miss out on their crowing over how bad Scottish Football is.  Again.

Your last point is a good one though, the PL would be a very different place without all the foreign players as English players aren't exactly the cream of the crop at the moment.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So that's it then, they are now the equal of Man City. Behave yourself!!
		
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Not at all, you quoted our poor CL record this year and I merely gave you the facts, not lies. What did anyone expect when we get drawn against Barca and City? It's easy to look at things in isolation.

Scottish football has been poor on the whole for many years. All I'm saying is too many people underestimate the Celtic team, they are most definitely not as bad as are made out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 1, 2016)

shewy said:



			As a mad Aberdeen fan I can say Scottish football is rubbish, it does lag behind the EPL, always has, I remember Fergies Dons team playing Liverpool, 4 or 5 - 1 if I recall, but you got to remember England 65M Scotland 5M, bigger pool of players to choose from.
Anyhow IMO if you take out all the foreign players out of the EPL the standard would be a lot lower than that in Spain or Germany so the money certainly distorts the quality there.
		
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I agree 100% with your second point.

The EPL may (or may not) be one of the strongest but the national team does not reflect that. In how many of the EPL teams are the best players English?


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## NWJocko (Dec 1, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm very much not a child of the Sky/EPL generation 



I remember when I was living in Peterhead in the 80's and watching Aberdeen a few times during the Ferguson era and at that time there was a good number of times that were strong - Aberdeen won in Europe , Dundee United in finals and Semi Finals and Celtic and Rangers were also winning titles - far better than right now and yes money is a big reason and no one would disagree with that
		
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Probably just aswell being a Liverpool fan 

Re the European thing, Rangers and Celtic both got to finals in the last 10/15 years aswell remember.

And Aberdeen had Fergie. Looking at some of the teams he won the PL for Utd with shows how good a (domestic before you start that argument) manager he was.


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## Val (Dec 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree 100% with your second point.

The EPL may (or may not) be one of the strongest but the national team does not reflect that. In how many of the EPL teams are the best players English?
		
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What we at work found tough not long ago was picking an England team with subs, most of us had to look players up, likewise Scotland.

Very sad state of affairs


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			Trust another Don to post some common sense 

Still, don't let the English fans miss out on their crowing over how bad Scottish Football is.  Again.

Your last point is a good one though, the PL would be a very different place without all the foreign players as English players aren't exactly the cream of the crop at the moment.
		
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Not all of us&#128515;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2016)

Val said:



			Not at all, you quoted our poor CL record this year and I merely gave you the facts, not lies. What did anyone expect when we get drawn against Barca and City? It's easy to look at things in isolation.

Scottish football has been poor on the whole for many years. *All I'm saying is too many people underestimate the Celtic team, they are most definitely not as bad as are made out.*

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yup - and then there are the likes of my team - St Johnstone - hmm - yup - the likes of St Johnstone...

But we won the Cup in 2014 so there (grasping at straws) - and not too bad a wee team for aw that.


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## Slab (Dec 2, 2016)

When you stick this doomed SPL club in the EPL to compare standards do you also give them the many 10's of millions any other promoted team would get?
Or do you then expect them to field the same team they assembled for Â£48.23 while the analysts compare standards across the two leagues!

You've got individual players earning more than the entire global broadcast revenue of the SPL! What was it you wanted to compare again?

(& lets not forget that after the 'experiment' there's 100million guaranteed for last place that's now stuffed into suitcases when Jocks FC head north for next seasons thrilling one horse SPL race) :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2016)

Attendances seem to be on the up in Scotland.
SPL 2 and the relegation of some of the bigger teams in recent years seem to have given a wider platform.

Money will always win so Celtic will always top the league.

The wider picture is that there are now more teams capable of beating them.
Look at Celtic's cup record over the last 10 years, not great.
With Rangers out of the picture you would expect them to win the treble most years. I think it has been quite a while since that happened.


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## Slab (Dec 2, 2016)

Actually thinking about it if you are going to do pointless comparisons shouldnâ€™t it be Arsenal or Liverpool etc coming up north for a season and weâ€™ll see how a modern day EPL player fancies trips to Inverness etc on a Monday night in Feb (by bus mind) and without their protective layer of billion pound cotton wool... Transfer requests passed down the bus by the time it reaches Pitlochry

(I wonder how many SPL clubs actually have recaro seats on the subs bench)  

Bawâ€™s burst, gameâ€™s a bogey!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2016)

I see Liverpool are after a rubbish Â£20m SPL player


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2016)

Neilson and Crawford off to MK Dons.
Seems a strange move but good luck to them hope they do well.

Up and coming Scots managers have not had a great record in England lately.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 3, 2016)

Val said:



			Forster also, England's 2nd keeper
		
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Oops!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2016)

Another good win for Celtic in a 4-3 thriller at Motherwell. Coming from 2-0 down

I think that is 7 of their 13 league games they have now won by the odd goal.
Runaway leaders but many tight matches.


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## davidy233 (Dec 4, 2016)

Slab said:



			(I wonder how many SPL clubs actually have recaro seats on the subs bench)
		
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Here you go Hamilton, Hearts, Celtic, Rangers, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Partick have them

Dundee, St Johnstone, Ross County, Inverness and Aberdeen don't as far as I know (disclaimer some of them may have put them in this season)

Killie's are very comfortable - had a seat in them yesterday before the match.

Top two in the village league Hibs and Dundee United have them too


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2016)

Do recaro seats [whatever they are] improve the quality of players. ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do recaro seats [whatever they are] improve the quality of players. ?
		
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Wouldn't have thought so.

After all they are occupied by the subs who aren't good enough to get in the team!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2016)

davidy233 said:



			Here you go Hamilton, Hearts, Celtic, Rangers, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Partick have them

Dundee, St Johnstone, Ross County, Inverness and Aberdeen don't as far as I know (disclaimer some of them may have put them in this season)

Killie's are very comfortable - had a seat in them yesterday before the match.

Top two in the village league Hibs and Dundee United have them too
		
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davidy.....As you get a close up view:lol:..........out of interest how do you rate Jack Hamilton the Hearts goalie ?


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## HankMarvin (Dec 4, 2016)

Val said:



			Not at all, you quoted our poor CL record this year and I merely gave you the facts, not lies. What did anyone expect when we get drawn against Barca and City? It's easy to look at things in isolation.

Scottish football has been poor on the whole for many years. All I'm saying is too many people underestimate the Celtic team, they are most definitely not as bad as are made out.
		
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 aye they are. Sitting with only 2 points in the CL they are poor & will be for a long time yet, their record in the CL over the last decade and beyond is poor so no point in trying to say otherwise.


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## HankMarvin (Dec 4, 2016)

Val said:



			Not at all, you quoted our poor CL record this year and I merely gave you the facts, not lies. What did anyone expect when we get drawn against Barca and City? It's easy to look at things in isolation.

Scottish football has been poor on the whole for many years. All I'm saying is too many people underestimate the Celtic team, they are most definitely not as bad as are made out.
		
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Aye they are, only 2 points so far in the CL is very poor and their track record over the last decade is probably one of the worst of any team making in the CL. No point in trying to cover up how bad Scottish football is


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## davidy233 (Dec 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			davidy.....As you get a close up view:lol:..........out of interest how do you rate Jack Hamilton the Hearts goalie ?
		
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Not seen anything special about him yet (although to be fair I've only seen him live once) - Jamie MacDonald at Killie on the other hand has probably been best in Scotland over last two years


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2016)

davidy233 said:



			Not seen anything special about him yet (although to be fair I've only seen him live once) - Jamie MacDonald at Killie on the other hand has probably been best in Scotland over last two years
		
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Yea I can't see him like others seem to do. Scotland No 3 who has come through all the youth teams.
His kicking distribution seems very poor. Still young though, so I'll give him a chance.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2016)

Cathro and MacPhee confirmed as new Hearts coaching team.
I think we have played a blinder there, hope we can hold on to them for a few years.


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