# European Union



## Crazyface (Oct 2, 2014)

Is it really doing the job it is supposed to do? We are all supposed to be united together aren't we? So how come all these immigrants that are currently stacked up in Calais? Just how the hell did our super European partners let them get through their borders?? It's about time we split off from them and set up our own proper borders with armed shoot to kill guards.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Is it really doing the job it is supposed to do? We are all supposed to be united together aren't we? So how come all these immigrants that are currently stacked up in Calais? Just how the hell did our super European partners let them get through their borders?? It's about time we split off from them and set up our own proper borders *with armed shoot to kill guards.*

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Really?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 2, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Is it really doing the job it is supposed to do? We are all supposed to be united together aren't we? So how come all these immigrants that are currently stacked up in Calais? Just how the hell did our super European partners let them get through their borders?? It's about time we split off from them and set up our own proper borders with armed shoot to kill guards.
		
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Thankfully I hope you will never be anywhere any sort of decision about border control ?!

Shoot to kill because a person is trying to find a better life ?


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## woody69 (Oct 2, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Is it really doing the job it is supposed to do? We are all supposed to be united together aren't we? So how come all these immigrants that are currently stacked up in Calais? Just how the hell did our super European partners let them get through their borders?? It's about time we split off from them and set up our own proper borders with armed shoot to kill guards.
		
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Well I'm not sure if you have ever left the comfort of Cheshire, but movement between EU countries is relatively easy to do. Once they are through the "front door" so to speak (after risking their lives often in over crowded unsafe boats) they tend to move up through Europe with relative ease as there are effectively no borders on some roads etc. It's there to promote the one team one dream one union and relaxed internal borders.

Of course to then get to the UK, these immigrants have to further risk their lives, either stowing away on shipping containers, or inside lorries. Not sure what picture you have in your head? Perhaps you think they simply walk through the tunnel.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2014)

woody69 said:



			Well I'm not sure if you have ever left the comfort of Cheshire, but movement between EU countries is relatively easy to do. Once they are through the "front door" so to speak (after risking their lives often in over crowded unsafe boats) they tend to move up through Europe with relative ease as there are effectively no borders on some roads etc. It's there to promote the one team one dream one union and relaxed internal borders.

Of course to then get to the UK, these immigrants have to further risk their lives, either stowing away on shipping containers, or inside lorries. Not sure what picture you have in your head? *Perhaps you think they simply walk through the tunnel.*

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Isn't that what happens? - and when they get to the English side there are nice folks from the DWP handing out accommodation vouchers, advice on how to get to the front of the queue for a GP appointment,  and money to help them settle.  I'm sure I read that somewhere.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 2, 2014)

The question is why come to Britain , after being in and traveling through numerous other countries.

 They don't seem to like us that much when it comes to serious things like the Eurovision song contest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			The question is why come to Britain , after being in and traveling through numerous other countries.

 They don't seem to like us that much when it comes to serious things like the Eurovision song contest.

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Because we are nice welcoming people and our country is fab


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 2, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Isn't that what happens? - and when they get to the English side there are nice folks from the DWP handing out accommodation vouchers, advice on how to get to the front of the queue for a GP appointment,  and money to help them settle.  I'm sure I read that somewhere.
		
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Have you been reading the Daily Mail?


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## woody69 (Oct 2, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have you been reading the Daily Mail?
		
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I think tongue was firmly in check with Mr SLH response.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			The question is why come to Britain , after being in and traveling through numerous other countries.

 They don't seem to like us that much when it comes to serious things like the Eurovision song contest.

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France Rail probably does a particularly cheap Single ticket from any station to Calais!


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## DaveM (Oct 2, 2014)

Bloody hell (sorry for that) what a post. Mind you what do you expect from someone in Cheshire. I was raised in Hale Barns. So qualified to comment on the extreme fascist view of the op.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have you been reading the Daily Mail?
		
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Naw, he takes the left wing Daily Record.:lol:


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Is it really doing the job it is supposed to do? We are all supposed to be united together aren't we? So how come all these immigrants that are currently stacked up in Calais? Just how the hell did our super European partners let them get through their borders?? It's about time we split off from them and set up our own proper borders with armed shoot to kill guards.
		
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I think you got slightly confused and meant to click here http://www.ukip.org.uk/  Or possibly http://thegreenarrow.proboards.com/


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

So the logic goes something like this:

Do you think we have too many people coming into the country?    If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think we should leave the EU?   If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think we are spending too much on benefits?  If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think the Conservatives are doing a good job in government?  If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

'END'    You are a Daily Mail reader!


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## williamalex1 (Oct 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			France Rail probably does a particularly cheap Single ticket from any station to Calais! 

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And we'll fly them back for free.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 2, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So the logic goes something like this:

Do you think we have too many people coming into the country?    If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think we should leave the EU?   If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think we are spending too much on benefits?  If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

Do you think the Conservatives are doing a good job in government?  If no then end discussion.   If yes then goto 'END'

'END'    You are a daily Mail reader!
		
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I thought we were talking about illegals,  not approved immigrants who are more than welcome.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			I thought we were talking about illegals,  not approved immigrants who are more than welcome.

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My point is regarding the stock Daily Mail reader accusation to anyone who not holding a socialist viewpoint.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is regarding the stock Daily Mail reader accusation to anyone who not holding a socialist viewpoint.
		
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You've slightly missed the point of the 'Daily Mail Reader' tag/accusation! It's the blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude - based on headline propoganda - that is being crticised/highlighted/mocked!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You've slightly missed the point of the 'Daily Mail Reader' tag/accusation! It's the blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude - based on headline propoganda - that is being crticised/highlighted/mocked!
		
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Oh! I see now, thanks!

So if I get it right then anyone not holding a Pro-EU viewpoint  has a "blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude - based on headline propaganda"   And I guess reads the Daily Mail!


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh! I see now, thanks!

So if I get it right then anyone not holding a Pro-EU viewpoint  has a "blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude - based on headline propaganda"   And I guess reads the Daily Mail!
		
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Close! Maybe. That might even be the way a 'Daily Mail Reader' might see it - in reverse of course!

Anyone demonstrating a blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude is likely to be a Daily Mail reader!

And any Daily Mail reader is likely to acquire (or already have) a blatantly, ill-informed, xenephobic attitude, based on the headline propoganda!

The Torygraph's indoctrination process is far less blatant - altogether far more gentile and 'British'!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Close! Maybe.

Anyone demonstrating a blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude is likely to be a Daily Mail reader!

And any Daily Mail reader is likely to acquire (or already have) a blatantly, ill-informed, xenephobic attitude, based on the headline propoganda!

The Torygraph's indoctrination process is far less blatant - altogether far more gentile and 'British'! 

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I see!    So please educate us on the political and information levels of other news paper readers.   The Guardian, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Express, Mirror, etc.    I assume your knowledge on this relationship transcends gut feeling and has some form of qualification.    I wait in anticipation for further clarification and indeed education.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see!    So please educate us on the political and information levels of other news paper readers.   The Guardian, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Express, Mirror, etc.    I assume your knowledge on this relationship transcends gut feeling and has some form of qualification.    I wait in anticipation for further clarification and indeed education.
		
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There's plenty of info out there, so if the ability to read transcends gut feeling, then it sure does. I suggest you do the same! A for clarification/education..... Google is your friend - try 'Newspaper Readership Profiles'!

Now, back to 'European Union'......


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There's plenty of info out there, so if the ability to read transcends gut feeling, then it sure does. I suggest you do the same! A for clarification/education..... Google is your friend - try 'Newspaper Readership Profiles'!

Now, back to 'European Union'......
		
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I may give it a try sometime after the more pleasurable pastime of sticking pins in my eyes.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2014)

Back to the EU and the Illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel.    These people should be claiming political asylum in the first country they pass through, how can they wait to use this card until they arrive in the UK?   I would suggest that anyone who arrives in the Uk to claim asylum who has passed through another country should be deported to that country without delay.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Back to the EU and the Illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel.    These people should be claiming political asylum in the first country they pass through, how can they wait to use this card until they arrive in the UK?
		
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That must surely be something for the UK Government to take up with the French Government!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see!    So please educate us on the political and information levels of other news paper readers.   The Guardian, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Express, Mirror, etc.    I assume your knowledge on this relationship transcends gut feeling and has some form of qualification.    I wait in anticipation for further clarification and indeed education.
		
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The Guardian - Lentil eating yogurt knitting lefties

Telegraph - Retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Times - Slightly less right wing retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Sun - Mostly interested in tits, will support any party that is likely to win the election

Express - Old people who like reading about the weather, Lady Di and Maddy. All the time. Every week. 

Mirror - Lefties with not got enough GCSEs to understand The Guardian

Daily Mail - UKIP supporters.


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## ger147 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			The Guardian - Lentil eating yogurt knitting lefties

Telegraph - Retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Times - Slightly less right wing retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Sun - Mostly interested in tits, will support any party that is likely to win the election

Express - Old people who like reading about the weather, Lady Di and Maddy. All the time. Every week. 

Mirror - Lefties with not got enough GCSEs to understand The Guardian

Daily Mail - UKIP supporters.
		
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http://youtu.be/DGscoaUWW2M


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## Crazyface (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Back to the EU and the Illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel.    These people should be claiming political asylum in the first country they pass through, how can they wait to use this card until they arrive in the UK?   I would suggest that anyone who arrives in the Uk to claim asylum who has passed through another country should be deported to that country without delay.
		
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Hurrah someone who actually took the time to read and understand my post.  

How do these immigrant get though ALL of EUROPE without anyone stopping them? They are NOT entitled to free movement within the EU so why aren't they stopped as they should be BEFORE THEY GET ANYWHERE NEAR US???????? WTF is it our problem???? It is Europes problem. That's where they enter EUROPE. Can you not see this????? We are being pooped (ok mods???) on by our so call Europeans partners. If we pulled out set out own laws we could stop them. GO NIGE AND UKIP !!!!!! The Tories are starting torealise that UKIP are listening to the Britsh people and getting fast growing support. (See announcement on Tax) Labour can all **** off after watching that stupid woman on last nights question time. Total idiots!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			The Guardian - Lentil eating yogurt knitting lefties

Telegraph - Retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Times - Slightly less right wing retired right wing Brigadier Generals and golfers

Sun - Mostly interested in tits, will support any party that is likely to win the election

Express - Old people who like reading about the weather, Lady Di and Maddy. All the time. Every week. 

Mirror - Lefties with not got enough GCSEs to understand The Guardian

Daily Mail - UKIP supporters.
		
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Thanks for that, it clarifies things a great deal.      Just one question for you!   I believe you are a Golfer from some of your previous postings; does that make you a retired Brigadier general who reads the Telegraph or Guardian?

Just interested!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks for that, it clarifies things a great deal.      Just one question for you!   I believe you are a Golfer from some of your previous postings; does that make you a retired Brigadier general who reads the Telegraph or Guardian?

Just interested!
		
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I don't read any papers and just form my opinion on current affairs based on the posts in the Out of Bounds section of this forum. As I believe it gives me a really balanced, compassionate and well thought out perspective on the major issues in society today. Don't trust papers, with their thinly veiled agendas, spreading all sorts of socialist or right wing propaganda.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Hurrah someone who actually took the time to read and understand my post.  

How do these immigrant get though ALL of EUROPE without anyone stopping them? They are NOT entitled to free movement within the EU so why aren't they stopped as they should be BEFORE THEY GET ANYWHERE NEAR US???????? WTF is it our problem???? It is Europes problem. That's where they enter EUROPE. Can you not see this????? We are being pooped (ok mods???) on by our so call Europeans partners. If we pulled out set out own laws we could stop them. GO NIGE AND UKIP !!!!!! The Tories are starting torealise that UKIP are listening to the Britsh people and getting fast growing support. (See announcement on Tax) Labour can all **** off after watching that stupid woman on last nights question time. Total idiots!
		
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You see, as the above proves, I get all the well reasoned and coherent arguments I need on here, including cApiTAl letters to indicate the importance of those words, so why do I need any papers?


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## Ethan (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh! I see now, thanks!

So if I get it right then anyone not holding a Pro-EU viewpoint  has a "blatant, ill-informed, xenophobic attitude - based on headline propaganda"   And I guess reads the Daily Mail!
		
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No, it is knee jerk anti-Europe, flag waving (check your avatar), mouth drooling jingoism. 

But lets not forget it is also tinged with a large measure of hypocrisy. 

Its owner is a British born and educated non dom who pays little or no UK tax as a result. A hypocrite beyond compare. At least he has not declared his admiration for Hitler and Mosley (although he may have it) like his great-grandfather did, but the political views appear not to have evolved very much regardless.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

Ethan said:



			No, it is knee jerk anti-Europe, flag waving (check your avatar), mouth drooling jingoism. 

But lets not forget it is also tinged with a large measure of hypocrisy. 

Its owner is a British born and educated non dom who pays little or no UK tax as a result. A hypocrite beyond compare. At least he has not declared his admiration for Hitler and Mosley (although he may have it) like his great-grandfather did, but the political views appear not to have evolved very much regardless.
		
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Wow, I thought I didn't like the Daily Mail. Respect.

Cheers yourself up with this, it's an oldie but a goodie.

[video=youtube_share;5eBT6OSr1TI]http://youtu.be/5eBT6OSr1TI[/video]


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I don't read any papers and just form my opinion on current affairs based on the posts in the Out of Bounds section of this forum. As I believe it gives me a really balanced, compassionate and well thought out perspective on the major issues in society today. Don't trust papers, with their thinly veiled agendas, spreading all sorts of socialist or right wing propaganda.
		
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But if, as you say, you do not read any newspapers how are yo so expert on the contents of the Daily Mail and equally certain which of your fellow forumers do read it?

Surely not lazy stereotyping on your well-informed part.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2014)

Ethan said:



			No, it is knee jerk anti-Europe, flag waving (check your avatar), mouth drooling jingoism. 

But lets not forget it is also tinged with a large measure of hypocrisy. 

Its owner is a British born and educated non dom who pays little or no UK tax as a result. A hypocrite beyond compare. At least he has not declared his admiration for Hitler and Mosley (although he may have it) like his great-grandfather did, but the political views appear not to have evolved very much regardless.
		
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Not exactly a rational argument.

Perhaps it is time to ask the people, after all if the EU really is the answer then the electorate should be convinced of this by its political supporters.

 However, the problem appears to lie with the Labour Party who, apparently, think "this is too big an issue to put to a referendum". This despite the question being perfectly well understood by the British electorate when we last held a referendum in 1975.

Name calling and accusations of jingoism levelled at those with a contrary view is unlikely to sway too many.


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## woody69 (Oct 3, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Hurrah someone who actually took the time to read and understand my post.  

How do these immigrant get though ALL of EUROPE without anyone stopping them? They are NOT entitled to free movement within the EU so why aren't they stopped as they should be BEFORE THEY GET ANYWHERE NEAR US???????? WTF is it our problem???? It is Europes problem. That's where they enter EUROPE. Can you not see this????? We are being pooped (ok mods???) on by our so call Europeans partners. If we pulled out set out own laws we could stop them. GO NIGE AND UKIP !!!!!! The Tories are starting torealise that UKIP are listening to the Britsh people and getting fast growing support. (See announcement on Tax) Labour can all **** off after watching that stupid woman on last nights question time. Total idiots!
		
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Anyone is allowed to claim asylum anywhere, but states may lawfully remove asylum seekers to safe third countries on the grounds that they could have claimed asylum there. The immigration rules state, however, that the secretary of state will only remove an asylum seeker to a safe third country if there is clear evidence that the country concerned will admit the person. This will be so if the person has arrived in the UK via another safe country and had an opportunity at the border of or within that country to claim asylum. The mere fact that the person has passed through another country does not necessarily mean there was an opportunity to claim asylum though; if an agent planned the journey and the person was hidden in a vehicle for the duration of it, for example, there is unlikely to have been any realistic opportunity for the person to approach the authorities.

You also have to consider that lots of these immigrants are stopped before they even get to us. And believe it or not the UK does deport a large proportion of them even if they do get through. In 2013 there were 50,741 foreign nationals removed from within the UK under immigration law - or known to have departed under threat of such removal - an increase of 14.5% from 2012 totals. This figure excludes individuals refused entry at port and subsequently removed. In 2013, 8,660 people who were removed or forced to depart were asylum cases, including 8,225 asylum applicants and 405 dependent family members.

So I'm not really sure what is getting you so worked up tbh. There is certainly a problem, but don't think that UKIP will wave a magic wand and immigrants will suddenly stop trying to get to us or we will suddenly start deporting more people.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

woody69 said:



			Anyone is allowed to claim asylum anywhere, but states may lawfully remove asylum seekers to safe third countries on the grounds that they could have claimed asylum there. The immigration rules state, however, that the secretary of state will only remove an asylum seeker to a safe third country if there is clear evidence that the country concerned will admit the person. This will be so if the person has arrived in the UK via another safe country and had an opportunity at the border of or within that country to claim asylum. The mere fact that the person has passed through another country does not necessarily mean there was an opportunity to claim asylum though; if an agent planned the journey and the person was hidden in a vehicle for the duration of it, for example, there is unlikely to have been any realistic opportunity for the person to approach the authorities.

You also have to consider that lots of these immigrants are stopped before they even get to us. And believe it or not the UK does deport a large proportion of them even if they do get through. In 2013 there were 50,741 foreign nationals removed from within the UK under immigration law - or known to have departed under threat of such removal - an increase of 14.5% from 2012 totals. This figure excludes individuals refused entry at port and subsequently removed. In 2013, 8,660 people who were removed or forced to depart were asylum cases, including 8,225 asylum applicants and 405 dependent family members.

So I'm not really sure what is getting you so worked up tbh. There is certainly a problem, but don't think that UKIP will wave a magic wand and immigrants will suddenly stop trying to get to us or we will suddenly start deporting more people.
		
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Absolutely spot on! I was searching for those 'rules', which I believe are Universal, in the wrong places. 

In the case of those at Calais, I believe it's a case of getting the French to sort out the problem for those identifiable at Calais, rather than conveniently (cue classic Gallic shoulder shrug!) allowing them through, thus passing the 'problem' to UK. In their defence, the French probably have a similar problem - as they could just as easily have first set foot in EU territory in another country!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But if, as you say, you do not read any newspapers how are yo so expert on the contents of the Daily Mail and equally certain which of your fellow forumers do read it?

Surely not lazy stereotyping on your well-informed part.
		
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I see the headlines when I get petrol from the Supermarket petrol station.  That's all I need.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

Politically the EU may be a mess, it does need desperately reforming and it does interfere in too many issues of the individual countries.  

But there is just about full agreement from serious economists that it is in out interests to stay in it. So I suspect the economic argument will eventually hold sway over the real and perceived issues with things like hoards of immigrants in Calais waiting to invade this country or Brussels telling us we can no longer have pints but have to go to half litres.

And I suspect the reluctance of governments to put membership to the vote is partly because they are scared that the public will put the real and sometimes vastly over exaggerated fears about things like immigration and not being able to extradite one or two high profile muslim clerics above the financial stability of the UK economy and it's ability to not go bust.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Politically the EU may be a mess, it does need desperately reforming and it does interfere in too many issues of the individual countries.  

But there is just about full agreement from serious economists that it is in out interests to stay in it. So I suspect the economic argument will eventually hold sway over the real and perceived issues with things like hoards of immigrants in Calais waiting to invade this country or Brussels telling us we can no longer have pints but have to go to half litres.

And I suspect the reluctance of governments to put membership to the vote is partly because they are scared that the public will put the real and sometimes vastly over exaggerated fears about things like immigration and not being able to extradite one or two high profile muslim clerics above the financial stability of the UK economy and it's ability to not go bust.
		
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That is an interesting point.

I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).

Personally I lean towards remaining within, albeit on a re-negotiated basis but, rather like the Scotland debate, there does appear to be a shortage of non-partisan information available to the public to assist the decision making process.

That shortage of information should not, however, be an excuse for not holding a referendum which I feel should be on the basis of the question not being asked again for at least 30 years regardless of the outcome. This should then enable us to "get on with it" afterwards.


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## woody69 (Oct 3, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			That is an interesting point.

I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).

Personally I lean towards remaining within, albeit on a re-negotiated basis but, rather like the Scotland debate, there does appear to be a shortage of non-partisan information available to the public to assist the decision making process.

That shortage of information should not, however, be an excuse for not holding a referendum which I feel should be on the basis of the question not being asked again for at least 30 years regardless of the outcome. This should then enable us to "get on with it" afterwards.
		
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You want a public referendum to vote whether the UK should stay within the EU? The problem with that is the vast majority of people in the UK either don't really care, or don't know. We elect a government every 5 years or so to make these decisions on our behalf. If we don't like it, we have the opportunity to vote them out. I'm not sure a referendum put to the public is the best idea based simply on the fact, the majority of people simply don't understand or know the full facts as to what EU membership provides and you get lots of people like our friend in the OP who focus purely on a single issue without looking at the wider perspective.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			That is an interesting point.

*I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).*

Personally I lean towards remaining within, albeit on a re-negotiated basis but, rather like the Scotland debate, there does appear to be a shortage of non-partisan information available to the public to assist the decision making process.

That shortage of information should not, however, be an excuse for not holding a referendum which I feel should be on the basis of the question not being asked again for at least 30 years regardless of the outcome. This should then enable us to "get on with it" afterwards.
		
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It was a discussion on 5 Live I was listening too and I believe it was their economics editor that said it, but not 100% sure.  He was talking about the views put forwards by the major banks and other economic institutions I think, but again not 100% definite it was just the banks/financial institutions.

But I appreciate that we all know you can get statistics to prove anything, and you can always find someone to agree with your opinion, no matter how paranoid or crazy it may be.  I mean, look at half the threads on this board


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 3, 2014)

If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached.  But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits.   And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 3, 2014)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached.  But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits.   And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.
		
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That's the correct answer to my post 6.:thup:


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## woody69 (Oct 3, 2014)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached.  But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits.   And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.
		
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williamalex1 said:



			That's the correct answer to my post 6.:thup:
		
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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			...
I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).
		
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It is pretty much unheard of to ever get 'unanimity' from a bunch of economists! By their nature, they are always looking for alternatives, benefits and 'downsides' of any situation/strategy!

But perhaps a list of any that say 'EU membership is bad for Britain' would be simpler - and probably a lot shorter. The Daily Mail might be able to supply one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2014)

Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'.  So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle.  The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle.  No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'.  So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle.  The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle.  No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!
		
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And that's a pretty fundamental Tory principle too!

But there'll be sufficient compromises made on minor matters for them to say 'We had a victory'!

And while they can stir the hearts of their troops with their ongoing plan to rescind the Human Rights Act (a, if not the, major purpose of which was to actually deal with HR cases in UK rather than having them go to ECHR), they won't actually change anything about European Court of Human Rights unless they withdraw from the Council of Europe, something they are extremely unlikely to do, as membership of CofEurope is required for membership of EU! And acceptance of ECHR rulings as the final say on HR matters is a requirement of membership of Council of Europe!

It is, of course, politically convenient that a very small number of cases can allow such stirring of the Tory flock to be generated! But that view only demonstrates my cynicism about politics!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Ethan said:



			No, it is knee jerk anti-Europe, flag waving (check your avatar), mouth drooling jingoism. 

But lets not forget it is also tinged with a large measure of hypocrisy. 

Its owner is a British born and educated non dom who pays little or no UK tax as a result. A hypocrite beyond compare. At least he has not declared his admiration for Hitler and Mosley (although he may have it) like his great-grandfather did, but the political views appear not to have evolved very much regardless.
		
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As a professional person of letters I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion.   I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think)   Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite?   Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'.  So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle.  The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle.  No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!
		
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I think Mr Collins may be surprised but that is hardly surprising considering his political background. 

There does appear to be a growing groundswell amongst other Northern European members of the EU that could lead to changes in the principle of 'free movement of labour'.

In addition it has already become clear that many of the other issues, such as welfare, access to health services and law & order are not inextricably linked to this freedom.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			...I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think) ...
		
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Best tink again then boyo! (Oi tink) :rofl:


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## woody69 (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			As a professional person of letters I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion.   I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think)   Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite?   Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!
		
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I always thought it was the Irish flag, but I am slightly colour blind and struggle to differentiate between reds and oranges! Not that this has anything to do with the topic. Carry on.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I always thought it was the Irish flag, but I am slightly colour blind and struggle to differentiate between reds and oranges! Not that this has anything to do with the topic. Carry on.
		
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It may well be Irish  but that does not detract from the point.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Best tink again then boyo! (Oi tink) :rofl:
		
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Stupid boy.   Keep up.

The two are similar and the avatar is not that clear but you seem to miss the point anyhow.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Stupid boy...
		
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:rofl:


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## Slime (Oct 3, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			Hurrah someone who actually took the time to read and understand my post.  

How do these immigrant get though ALL of EUROPE without anyone stopping them? They are NOT entitled to free movement within the EU so why aren't they stopped as they should be BEFORE THEY GET ANYWHERE NEAR US???????? WTF is it our problem???? It is Europes problem. That's where they enter EUROPE. Can you not see this????? *We are being pooped (ok mods???) on by our so call Europeans partners.* If we pulled out set out own laws we could stop them. GO NIGE AND UKIP !!!!!! The Tories are starting torealise that UKIP are listening to the Britsh people and getting fast growing support. (See announcement on Tax) Labour can all **** off after watching that stupid woman on last nights question time. Total idiots!
		
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I think the above has some merit.



Pathetic Shark said:



			If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached.  But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits.   *And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.*

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Unfortunately, I think you are bang on.


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



*As a professional person of letters* I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion.   I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think)   Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite?   Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!
		
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A professional person of letters ? What does that mean 

And its an Irish Flag and quite clearly an Irish Flag


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## Hobbit (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Back to the EU and the Illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel.    These people should be claiming political asylum in the first country they pass through, how can they wait to use this card until they arrive in the UK?   I would suggest that anyone who arrives in the Uk to claim asylum who has passed through another country should be deported to that country without delay.
		
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Foxholer said:



			That must surely be something for the UK Government to take up with the French Government!
		
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Good idea, and it is/was a European Regulation - namely the Dublin Regulation, that an illegal immigrant be returned to the country they last passed through. I think this was contested by the European Court of Human Rights, at the behest of an illegal immigrant.

I think the regulation still exists but I think the immigrant won their case... (Belgium and.... Greece(?) got done over and fined I think).


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A professional person of letters ? What does that mean
		
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He's a postie:smirk:


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 3, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He's a postie:smirk:
		
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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A professional person of letters ? What does that mean...
		
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Well, a 'man of letters' originally applied to someone who could read and write, then went through a couple of other meanings before becoming an (outdated) description for an 'intellectual'! What a 'Professional Intellectual' is (or does), I have no idea! A literary equivalent of Stephen Hawking perhaps?

It's unclear, through ambiguity, whether Socket is describing himself or Ethan though. I wouldn't describe either of them that way - Ethan is more a 'man of numbers' from what I understand. The failure to identify the Irish flag and the incorrect use of 'birth rite' wouldn't help Socket's case for being one either!

Anyway, back on EU....
From the numbers I've seen, France takes over twice as many Asylum seekers than UK and Germany over 4 times as many! There are obviously differences in how these cases are handled, but it's pretty clearly stated that UK's benefits are not the reason that Asylum seekers head for UK. It's more likely to be the fact that they have some English language skills!


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## c1973 (Oct 3, 2014)

I took it to mean someone who has letters after their name, due to qualifications and being a member of a certified body. No?


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

c1973 said:



			I took it to mean someone who has letters after their name, due to qualifications and being a member of a certified body. No?
		
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Something of a myth apparently. That was what I used to think it was.

Letters as in literacy! A question in a Televised Schools Quiz comp many (45) years ago! One of 2 I missed - the other being because of my inability to remember the name of 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' even though I'd seen it a week or 2 earlier being the other - the question being 'in which of Shakespeare's play is a Wall a character'!


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## Slime (Oct 3, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Anyway, back on EU....
From the numbers I've seen, France takes over twice as many Asylum seekers than UK and Germany over 4 times as many! There are obviously differences in how these cases are handled, but it's pretty clearly stated that *UK's benefits are not the reason that Asylum seekers head for UK. It's more likely to be the fact that they have some English language skills!*

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


*Slime*.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

c1973 said:



			I took it to mean someone who has letters after their name, due to qualifications and being a member of a certified body. No?
		
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Correct.   He is a medical Doctor.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Well, a 'man of letters' originally applied to someone who could read and write, then went through a couple of other meanings before becoming an (outdated) description for an 'intellectual'! What a 'Professional Intellectual' is (or does), I have no idea! A literary equivalent of Stephen Hawking perhaps?

It's unclear, through ambiguity, whether Socket is describing himself or Ethan though. I wouldn't describe either of them that way - Ethan is more a 'man of numbers' from what I understand. The failure to identify the Irish flag and the incorrect use of 'birth rite' wouldn't help Socket's case for being one either!

Anyway, back on EU....
From the numbers I've seen, France takes over twice as many Asylum seekers than UK and Germany over 4 times as many! There are obviously differences in how these cases are handled, but it's pretty clearly stated that UK's benefits are not the reason that Asylum seekers head for UK. It's more likely to be the fact that they have some English language skills!
		
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Why dont you grow up.   You have been running this stupid game of following my every post and making negative comments for months now.   I am not sure why you are doing this but it's getting very much like a stalking policy and beyond boring now.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

Slime said:



			:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


*Slime*.
		
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Perhaps you might reflect that Syria is the greatest source of Asylum seekers bound for EU.

Not altogether unconnected with this thread! http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?71152-R-I-P-Alan-Henning


Try putting the DM (or Sun) down and get some facts - with evidence...
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1 or 
http://www.salford.gov.uk/asylum-myths.htm


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Not a great deal of difference is there and I did admit I may have it wrong but you just have to jump in with a schoolboy reply Foxholer!

View attachment 12453
View attachment 12454


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps you might reflect that Syria is the greatest source of Asylum seekers bound for EU.

Not altogether unconnected with this thread! http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?71152-R-I-P-Alan-Henning


Try putting the DM (or Sun) down and get some facts - with evidence...
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1 or 
http://www.salford.gov.uk/asylum-myths.htm

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Is there evidence to support your claim that the largest number of those seeking asylum in the UK originate from Syria?


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Is there evidence to support your claim that the largest number of those seeking asylum in the UK originate from Syria?
		
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EU!

And yes! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24636868

2013 stats, but that'll be the latest - article was quite recent!

Ukraine and Iraq might feature higher in this years numbers, but Syria probably still tops There might also be a weighting towards France because of possible language/commercial associations, but both those statements are pure 'possible' speculation by me.

Edit: Here's the numbers for Asylum seekers to UK. http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....Briefing - Migration to the UK - Asylum_0.pdf Page 7. Pakistan top; Syria 4th


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Correct.   He is a medical Doctor.
		
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So what relevance does you bring a doctor have in regards the subject about the European Union ? 

Unless you are trying to suggest something ?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what relevance does you bring a doctor have in regards the subject about the European Union ? 

Unless you are trying to suggest something ?
		
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Dont believe the conversation was directed to you.   If you want to understand more then read the threads.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 4, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont believe the conversation was directed to you.   If you want to understand more then read the threads.
		
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Oh sorry didnt realise this public thread was only directed towards certain people and only they can respond 

And can certainly understand exactly what you are suggesting


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh sorry didnt realise this public thread was only directed towards certain people and only they can respond 

And can certainly understand exactly what you are suggesting
		
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Thats OK.   I forgive you :smirk:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			EU!

And yes! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24636868

2013 stats, but that'll be the latest - article was quite recent!

Ukraine and Iraq might feature higher in this years numbers, but Syria probably still tops There might also be a weighting towards France because of possible language/commercial associations, but both those statements are pure 'possible' speculation by me.

Edit: Here's the numbers for Asylum seekers to UK. http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....Briefing - Migration to the UK - Asylum_0.pdf Page 7. Pakistan top; Syria 4th
		
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It is, of course, largely irrelevant which country asylum seekers originate from. However, without wishing to be a pedant I should point out that the figures quoted are for those seeking asylum within the EU as a whole and not specifically the UK.

What is interesting is that those figures do not back up those who claim that this country is being expected to accept more than its "fair share" with there being approx four times as many arriving in Germany and twice as many in France.

One difficulty that seems insoluble is distinguishing between true asylum seekers and economic migrants with the result that some sections of society do not appear compassionate towards those fleeing persecution for their religion, political beliefs or ethnicity. This is very sad as historically this country has generally provided a safe haven for such people.


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			...However, without wishing to be a pedant I should point out that the figures quoted are for those seeking asylum within the EU as a whole and not specifically the UK.
		
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<Pedant Mode> The 2nd reference - after the Edit.... IS specifically UK figures! </Pedant Mode>



MetalMickie said:



			...
What is interesting is that those figures do not back up those who claim that this country is being expected to accept more than its "fair share" with there being approx four times as many arriving in Germany and twice as many in France.
...
		
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I agree - as I posted earlier.

It (incidents like Calais) does provide ammo for headlines for the likes of the Daily Mail and UKIP - and even the Mayor of Calais a while ago! 



MetalMickie said:



			...
One difficulty that seems insoluble is distinguishing between true asylum seekers and economic migrants with the result that some sections of society do not appear compassionate towards those fleeing persecution for their religion, political beliefs or ethnicity. This is very sad as historically this country has generally provided a safe haven for such people.
		
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Again, totally agree. Distinct difference between the 2 if originating outside EU.

However EU's fundamental 'freedom of movement' policy does not differentiate for EU citizens. That is a debate that is legitimate for the likes of UKIP. I don't believe the Asylum one is!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 6, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is regarding the stock Daily Mail reader accusation to anyone who not holding a socialist viewpoint.
		
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But have you seen todays Daily Mail!!!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But have you seen todays Daily Mail!!!

View attachment 12498

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I did notice it as I crossed the forecourt of the petrol station.   :smirk:


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## bluewolf (Oct 6, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But have you seen todays Daily Mail!!!

View attachment 12498

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You do appear to have mixed up your media outlets though.. The Spider obsession, coupled with the weather angle would solidly suggest a Daily Express/Daily Star bias. Everything else is definitely the Mail though....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2014)

It's also a pity so many get the European thingies mixed up.  So for instance the ECHR (human rights thingy) is a Council of Europe thing - not EU - though the EU have acceded to it.  And of course when discussing the EU the Tories and UKIP fling in issues with the ECHR.  Indeed Chris Graylings take on Human Rights recently expressed is interesting in that he complains that 'the Human Rights Act supports the rights of the few over the rights of the many' - and this as a problem rather than a virtue? - a bit scary as this is the whole point of protecting an individual's human rights.


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## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			You do appear to have mixed up your media outlets though.. The Spider obsession, coupled with the weather angle would solidly suggest a Daily Express/Daily Star bias. Everything else is definitely the Mail though....
		
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:rofl:

That was my immediate thought too! But mainly for the cartoon-like merging of several issues. DM tends to be a 1 issue at a time rag!


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