# Correcting a push slic



## Alan P Mills (Dec 8, 2013)

Hi,
in recent weeks I have developed a push slice with my driver, any advice on how best to correct this would be most welcome.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 8, 2013)

Release your hands through impact. If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out, the fade part is then caused by an open clubface. If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw  :thup:


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

My way (of doing what D4S suggests) is to think of the Tennis shot 'Topspin Forehand down the line'. But only enough to correct the P-S. Too much (as in topspin cross-court passing shot) promotes a Duck-Hook!!! And it's old-school play - Borg, Lendl etc (even Federer) - not Nadal (or Vilas!)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2013)

Try strengthening your grip a bit.


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## Alan P Mills (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for responses all. Off to range Wednesday so will see what happens. :thup:


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## Alan P Mills (Dec 16, 2013)

Alan P Mills said:



			Thanks for responses all. Off to range Wednesday so will see what happens. :thup:
		
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Well, my coordination is not good enough for top spin forehands. What I found that worked was adjusting ball position to be a tad further left, i.e. Further away from centre. That seemed to do the trick, allowed me to release through the ball without having to 'manipulate' the hands.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 16, 2013)

Alan P Mills said:



			Well, my coordination is not good enough for top spin forehands. What I found that worked was adjusting ball position to be a tad further left, i.e. Further away from centre. That seemed to do the trick, allowed me to release through the ball without having to 'manipulate' the hands.
		
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Excellent, glad you are hitting the ball better


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Release your hands through impact. If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out, the fade part is then caused by an open clubface. If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw  :thup:
		
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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2013)

bobmac said:







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You'll have to excuse D4S, he doesn't really know given that he has never missed a fairway!


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## Jimbooo (Dec 17, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Release your hands through impact. If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out, the fade part is then caused by an open clubface. If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw  :thup:
		
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Reckon you've got that backwards!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Reckon you've got that backwards!
		
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Have I??


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## Jimbooo (Dec 17, 2013)

Release your hands through impact. If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out, the fade part is then caused by an open clubface. If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw
		
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drive4show said:



			Have I??
		
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So it's the swing path that determines where the ball starts and the clubface that determines the shot shape?  Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought it was the other way round.


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2013)

'ang on while I get my popcorn ....... I reckon this could get fun!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			So it's the swing path that determines where the ball starts and the clubface that determines the shot shape?  Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought it was the other way round.
		
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You're forgiven


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## Jimbooo (Dec 17, 2013)

drive4show said:



			You're forgiven  

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Phew! Thanks!   Def gonna go try this at the range.. I can't wait!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Phew! Thanks!   Def gonna go try this at the range.. I can't wait! 

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Bung a tenner in my crimbo card and we'll call it quits


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			So it's the swing path that determines where the ball starts and the clubface that determines the shot shape?  Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought it was the other way round.
		
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   It is!


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## Jimbooo (Dec 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



  It is!
		
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I bet you're not nearly as confused as the OP


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2013)

I'm not confused, I play golf on a golf course, not on a launch monitor


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Release your hands through impact.
		
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I would not teach that



drive4show said:



			If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out,
		
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Wrong, it means the clubface is pointing right 



drive4show said:



			the fade part is then caused by an open clubface.
		
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Wrong, the fade part is then caused by an out to in swing.



drive4show said:



			If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw  :thup:
		
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Wrong. If you have an out to in swing and you roll your hands over, you're likely to hit a smother/pull hook.

Try this......
Take your putter and a ball. Swing the putter towards the hole but point the putter face 6ft right of the target.
The ball starts in the direction of the clubface.


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2013)

bobmac said:



			The ball starts in the direction of the clubface.
		
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The stat I read is that the ball starts, *at least* 85%, in the direction of the club face, so this makes Bob and Jimboo as correct as you need to be.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2013)

chrisd said:



			The stat I read is that the ball starts, *at least* 85%, in the direction of the club face, so this makes Bob and Jimboo as correct as you need to be.
		
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That is correct but I was trying to keep it simple


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## pokerjoke (Dec 18, 2013)

bobmac said:



			That is correct but I was trying to keep it simple
		
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Welcome back Bob


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## Jimbooo (Dec 18, 2013)

bobmac said:



			I would not teach that


Wrong, it means the clubface is pointing right 


Wrong, the fade part is then caused by an out to in swing.


Wrong. If you have an out to in swing and you roll your hands over, you're likely to hit a smother/pull hook.

Try this......
Take your putter and a ball. Swing the putter towards the hole but point the putter face 6ft right of the target.
The ball starts in the direction of the clubface.
		
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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2013)

bobmac said:



			That is correct but I was trying to keep it simple
		
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I don't post much on swing matters and just wanted to be a cleverdick!

Good to see you post Bob!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

So....what are you guys saying......it's possible to hit a draw WITHOUT an in to out swingpath?


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## SGC001 (Dec 18, 2013)

Alan P Mills said:



			Hi,
in recent weeks I have developed a push slice with my driver, any advice on how best to correct this would be most welcome.
		
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Out of interest what other shots do you hit either with your driver or other golf clubs?


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2013)

drive4show said:



			So....what are you guys saying......it's possible to hit a draw WITHOUT an in to out swingpath?
		
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Spot on, you've not paid attention to the NEW BALL FLIGHT LAWS have you Gordon?

It about swing path relative to face angle, angle of attack also has a part to play.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

OK......someone explain to me how to hit a draw without swinging in to out please?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2013)

drive4show said:



			OK......someone explain to me how to hit a draw without swinging in to out please?
		
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You are kinda right there Gordon. :thup:

The balls initial flight will be in the direction the clubface is pointing.

To create draw spin the swingpath has to be right of the clubface direction.

To create a push draw you need the clubface slightly open and the swingpath slightly more right.

If the clubface is slightly shut at impact and the swingpath is square to target you will get a pull draw.

And so on and so forth.


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## garyinderry (Dec 18, 2013)

these things all hold true...  as long as you are hitting slap bang in the middle of the face.    toe and heel hits kick in gear effect.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			You are kinda right there Gordon. :thup:

The balls initial flight will be in the direction the clubface is pointing.

To create draw spin the swingpath has to be right of the clubface direction.

To create a push draw you need the clubface slightly open and the swingpath slightly more right.

If the clubface is slightly shut at impact and the swingpath is square to target you will get a pull draw.

And so on and so forth.
		
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Thank you Brian, at last someone talking sense  :thup:


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			OK......someone explain to me how to hit a draw without swinging in to out please?
		
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No-one said anything about that ????
You said




_'If you are starting the ball to the right it means you are swinging in to out'_

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You cannot make that assumption. The swing path could be straight or even out to in and the ball could still start to the right if the clubface is pointing to the right.

Then based on that incorrect assumption that he is swinging in to out you said




			'_If you can learn to gently roll your hands over through the hitting zone you will turn your push slice into a draw_'
		
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While that may be true if he was swinging in to out, you cannot give that advice unless you know for certain he is swinging in to out.
If you give that advice to someone who is swing out to in, they wouldn't stand a chance of hitting a draw.

If you still don't believe the new ball flight laws, look them up.


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2013)

Kick a football normally and it goes straight.
Kick across the ball and it starts in the direction you aimed it and swerves after a while due to the side spin you've put on it.
Think about how Beckham used to take a freekick, he didn't change his foot to ball impact angle as such it was more his angle of attack which caused so much bend.
Seemples.


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## chrisd (Dec 19, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			Kick a football normally and it goes straight.
Kick across the ball and it starts in the direction you aimed it and swerves after a while due to the side spin you've put on it.
Think about how Beckham used to take a freekick, he didn't change his foot to ball impact angle as such it was more his angle of attack which caused so much bend.
Seemples.
		
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Slightly different surely. The football will slde spin whereas a golf ball only backspins, it's the axis that tilts to create side ways movement. Unless I'm wrong as usual!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Slightly different surely. The football will slde spin whereas a golf ball only backspins, it's the axis that tilts to create side ways movement. Unless I'm wrong as usual!
		
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Your spot on.


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## richy (Dec 19, 2013)

So a football can side spin but a golf ball can only backspin on different axes?


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Slightly different surely. The football will slde spin whereas a golf ball only backspins, it's the axis that tilts to create side ways movement. Unless I'm wrong as usual!
		
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So when the axis tilts it spins which way?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Slightly different surely. The football will slde spin whereas a golf ball only backspins, it's the f ballaxis that tilts to create side ways movement. Unless I'm wrong as usual!
		
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You are correct 100% - a golf ball can only spin backwards


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## richy (Dec 19, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are correct 100% - a golf ball can only spin backwards
		
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Why is a football different?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2013)

richy said:



			Why is a football different?
		
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I wouldn't know why a foot ball is different but I would guess it would be cause of what is striking the football


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 19, 2013)

Any ball can only spin one way, how it is struck will determine how much of that spin is 'backspin' and how much is 'sidespin'

If you look at the output from any shot on a trackman style device, you will see both figures quoted when in fact the ball is only spinning in one direction.


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## chrisd (Dec 19, 2013)

richy said:



			Why is a football different?
		
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It has to be the nature of how the strike is performed. A golf club, whether driver or lofted wedge, hits the back of the ball with loft and a descending blow. The variable is the face angle/ attack angle, so a 0 degree putter sets the ball off straight with no backspin - unless I'm wrong!


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2013)

chrisd said:



			It has to be the nature of how the strike is performed. A golf club, whether driver or lofted wedge, hits the back of the ball with loft and a descending blow. The variable is the face angle/ attack angle, so a 0 degree putter sets the ball off straight with no backspin - unless I'm wrong!
		
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I see what you mean mate but the direction of spin on any spherical object/ball is directly related to the direction of the force hitting it.
If you have an out to in swing the force goes kinda right to left across the ball which in turn imparts spin to the right and causes a slice, it's simple physics. There is also an amount of backspin but it's negligible and not part of this argument IMO.
By your logic any golf logic is perfectly straight as you can only put backspin on a ball which to me is complete and utter guff :thup:


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## garyinderry (Dec 19, 2013)

chrisd said:



			It has to be the nature of how the strike is performed. A golf club, whether driver or lofted wedge, hits the back of the ball with loft and a descending blow. The variable is the face angle/ attack angle, so a 0 degree putter sets the ball off straight with no backspin - unless I'm wrong!
		
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a driver can be hit with an ascending blow! 


[video=youtube;deWBBmss_9g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deWBBmss_9g[/video]


ball spinning forward!


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## chrisd (Dec 19, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			I see what you mean mate but the direction of spin on any spherical object/ball is directly related to the direction of the force hitting it.
If you have an out to in swing the force goes kinda right to left across the ball which in turn imparts spin to the right and causes a slice, it's simple physics. There is also an amount of backspin but it's negligible and not part of this argument IMO.
By your logic any golf logic is perfectly straight as you can only put backspin on a ball which to me is complete and utter guff :thup:
		
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My understanding is, as I posted earlier, that the only spin on a golf ball is backspin. Trackman has proved this conclusively. If you have an in to out swing the ball starts in the direction that the club face aims, the move to the left or right is caused by the ball being moved from on a tilting axis, so the backswinging ball tilts left or right and the ball moves in that direction. I believe the reason is what some call the D Plane.


Bob posted earlier that if you swing down a straight line with a club, that's held open, it will go straight in the direction the face aims. If Trackman proves that a golf ball only backspins it stands to reason it can't side spin at the same time as ia ball can only spin in one direction at a time

Please ,any experts, tell me if my understanding is wrong


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2013)

Tilting axis to me is a ball with an amount of side spin, it may be spinning backwards at the same time but it's also tending to one side. The steeper the club face the harder they are to control as side spin comes into play a lot more as backspin is reduced.
I agree about club face = direction, that's not in any doubt, my snap hook with a closed face is testament to that lol.

I'd be interested to know how much backspin say a 9 degree driver (hit slightly on the up) puts on the ball, if any at all.

Anyway, isn't D Plane from Fantasy Island? :thup:


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## chrisd (Dec 19, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			I'd be interested to know how much backspin say a 9 degree driver (hit slightly on the up) puts on the ball, if any at all.
		
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Beezerk said:



			I'd be interested to know how much backspin say a 9 degree driver (hit slightly on the up) puts on the ball, if any at all.
		
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I just pulled this table up at random on driver stats


Ball Speed Kmph	Verticle Launch Degrees	Back Spin rate (RMP)
286.                                 	9.5 to 11	                   2450 to 2650
272	                                 12 to 13.5.                  2750 to 3200
256	                                 12.5 to 14	                   3000 to 3300
240	                                 13 to 15	                   3300 to 3550
224	                                 14 to 16	                   3500 to 3800
208	                                 15 to 17	                   3750 to 3900
192	                                 15.5 to 17.5	           3750 to 3900
176	                                 15.5 to 17.5	           3800 to 4050
160	                                 16 to 18.5	                   3900 to 4200

I hope this goes someway to answering your question

Sorry, it doesn't want to line up when I post stats but you can see the relevant numbers band the various headings. First numbers eg 285 ball speed, 9.5 to 11 launch, 2450 to 2650 back spin rpm


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## Region3 (Dec 19, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			Tilting axis to me is a ball with an amount of side spin, it may be spinning backwards at the same time but it's also tending to one side. The steeper the club face the harder they are to control as side spin comes into play a lot more as backspin is reduced.
I agree about club face = direction, that's not in any doubt, my snap hook with a closed face is testament to that lol.

I'd be interested to know how much backspin say a 9 degree driver (hit slightly on the up) puts on the ball, if any at all.

Anyway, isn't D Plane from Fantasy Island? :thup:
		
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A ball - any ball - either spins or it doesn't. It can only spin one way, and whichever way that is you could draw a line through the ball as being the axis that it spins around.

For a football bent around a wall I'd imagine that axis would be very nearly vertical meaning that the side spin component is stronger than the back (or forward) spin component.

For a golf ball the axis is closer to horizontal than vertical. 1000rpm of side spin would give quite a lot of movement sideways in the air, but 2500-3000rpm of backspin is what most people should be aiming at with a driver. 6 iron somewhere around 6000rpm and up to 10000rpm with a wedge.

Backspin is what keeps the ball in the air for longer. If you ever manage to hit the ball using a driver with no back spin it won't go very far. The best angle to launch a ball that doesn't create any lift of its own is 45 degrees, and I'd like to see someone try that with a driver! 

I've used the words backspin and side spin separately just because it's easier to visualise. What I really mean is those components of the overall spin. If the axis of spin were at 45 degrees the components would be equal.

Disclaimer... It's late and I haven't double checked any of this before I posted. The exact numbers may be wrong but the general principle is there.


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## Region3 (Dec 19, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			If you have an out to in swing the force goes kinda right to left across the ball which in turn imparts spin to the right and causes a slice, it's simple physics. There is also an amount of backspin but it's negligible and not part of this argument IMO.
		
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If such a person existed that consistently put more side spin on the ball than backspin I'd put a lot of money on them not being able to break 100.

As you said, all the ball knows is the strength and direction of the force imparted on it. It doesn't know which way is left, right, up or down. There is almost always going to be more loft on the club than the path is off centre, even on a crap swing.


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2013)

Very interesting reading, it's hard to imagine a driver giving that amount of backspin on a ball given how steep the club face is.
So has the guys slice been cured yet?


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## chrisd (Dec 20, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			Very interesting reading, it's hard to imagine a driver giving that amount of backspin on a ball given how steep the club face is.
So has the guys slice been cured yet? 

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Steep it may be but will still have I guess, on average, 10* of loft and may be often hitting incorrectly with more loft. Around 3,000 rpm of backspin is common I'd say and Region 3 is correct to say that it's backspin that keeps the ball airborne. If you do a club fitting they will look at the stats to check that backspin rates are correct for the clubs you might buy.


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2013)

Just done some sums, and a golf ball launched with no spin at 150mph and 12Â° will stay in the air for 2.8 seconds.

Using Flightscope's trajectory optimizer ( http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/ ) the same launch but with 3,000rpm of backspin keeps the ball in the air for 6.1s.

Provided it isn't so high that the ball balloons and stalls, backspin is your friend


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2013)

The ball stays in the air longer due to backspin and the dimples on the ball.   Anyone interested in how this works look up 'The Magus Effect'   It's a similar concept to the way an aircraft wing creates lift.

A golf ball spins on a single axis, if that axis is horizontal the ball will fly straight if not affected by sidewinds (or trees).  If the axis tilts down at the left the ball will have 'Draw Spin'.  If it tilts down to the right it will have 'Fade Spin'


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Using Flightscope's trajectory optimizer ( http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/ ) the same launch but with 3,000rpm of backspin keeps the ball in the air for 6.1s.
		
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I could mess around all day with that thing


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2013)

Beezerk said:



			I could mess around all day with that thing 

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Yeah, it's very good.

If you know your swing speed (and use ball speed = swing speed * 1.5) you can play around to find your optimum launch angle and spin rate. It's a bit of an eye opener how much extra distance some people could get without swinging any faster.


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## Alan P Mills (Dec 20, 2013)

SGC001 said:



			Out of interest what other shots do you hit either with your driver or other golf clubs?
		
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with my irons I'm pretty much straight with a very slight fade. My bad driver shot is an awful push slice, right and going very right.


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## Alan P Mills (Dec 20, 2013)

Heh, a simple question I thought, some interesting responses!


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## Region3 (Dec 21, 2013)

Alan P Mills said:



   Heh, a simple question I thought, some interesting responses!
		
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Sorry for it going off topic a bit 

Hopefully you got some useful info before it went off track. Not that my opinion should be trusted, but I would check to make sure your grip hasn't changed slightly without you noticing. Failing that, get somebody to check you're aiming where you think you are, especially your shoulders lining up with the rest of you.

When you're happy those are ok, then start looking at your swing. There are lots of knowledgable people here if you could manage to put a video up.


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## SGC001 (Dec 21, 2013)

Alan P Mills said:



			with my irons I'm pretty much straight with a very slight fade. My bad driver shot is an awful push slice, right and going very right.
		
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If you're trying to work out what is happening try and think about distance, direction, curvature and trajectory so that would include things like where it starts, finishes, if carry is normal, high, low etc: and it's always worth checking your aim. We often don't align where we think (mine tends to creep right) and it helps to know the position we are starting from to try and figure it out. 

So for example is your fade with the irons starting left or right of where you are aiming, how much is a fade, what is total distance like, is it flying on a 'normal' trajectory or a little higher, lower...similarly with your driver what is your actual alignment may be a question worth asking.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2013)

Here's my take on this:

All balls can spin. Golf balls, when hit with golf clubs will end up with backspin in thousands of rpm and normally 'side-spin' (or at least an axis of rotation that can be considered such) in 0-a few hundred rpm. So the effect of side-spin is much less. 

Footballs not only have a much smaller 'back-spin' rotation but can also have zero rotation - or even a touch of topspin. Also, because of the size of the ball, it is possible for the striker to put a relatively large amount of sidespin (in relation to any backspin) on it.

Tennis balls can have considerable amounts of topspin applied - and there was even a short time when large amounts of random spin could be created with a stringing system that was quickly made illegal!

Table-Tennis can also create relatively large amounts of top or side-spin - something deemed worth legislating for by having a different coloured face for the high spin side to the low/zero spin one!

But if, as described in the OP, the ball is starting right, then curving further right...the clubface is open to 'target' at impact and the path 'closed' in comparison to the clubface. It may even be to the left (for a rightee) of the target - something that traditional slicers often try to 'correct' the slice as they progress around a course, but end up magnifying it instead.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Here's my take on this:

All balls can spin. Golf balls, when hit with golf clubs will end up with backspin in thousands of rpm and normally 'side-spin' (or at least an axis of rotation that can be considered such) in 0-a few hundred rpm. So the effect of side-spin is much less. 

Footballs not only have a much smaller 'back-spin' rotation but can also have zero rotation - or even a touch of topspin. Also, because of the size of the ball, it is possible for the striker to put a relatively large amount of sidespin (in relation to any backspin) on it.

Tennis balls can have considerable amounts of topspin applied - and there was even a short time when large amounts of random spin could be created with a stringing system that was quickly made illegal!

Table-Tennis can also create relatively large amounts of top or side-spin - something deemed worth legislating for by having a different coloured face for the high spin side to the low/zero spin one!

But if, as described in the OP, the ball is starting right, then curving further right...the clubface is open to 'target' at impact and the path 'closed' in comparison to the clubface. It may even be to the left (for a rightee) of the target - something that traditional slicers often try to 'correct' the slice as they progress around a course, but end up magnifying it instead.
		
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Golf balls in flight don't have any side spin, they have backspin only (except when they have been badly topped) When struck with a oblique blow the axis of rotation tilts left or right to create a curving flight path.   Is this what you mean?


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## Jimbooo (Dec 21, 2013)

Maybe this explains it?

http://scratchgolfschool.com/theres-no-such-thing-as-sidespin/


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Maybe this explains it?

http://scratchgolfschool.com/theres-no-such-thing-as-sidespin/

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  Could have been written by me.


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