# Racism in sport



## stefanovic (Nov 16, 2021)

Tricky subject this with cricket now under scrutiny.
I've been listening to the enquiry today.

Going back in time Frank Worrell became the first black cricketer to captain the West Indies cricket team for an entire series, thus breaking the colour barriers then found in West Indian cricket. 
He led the side on two particularly notable tours. The first was to Australia in 1960–61. Prior to that the captain had to be a white man.
There was also the South African test team consisting of whites only.  
Then there was YCCC in the 1970's with unpleasant references to non white players.

Other sports include football, rugby and golf.
I've heard reports of non white applicants for golf membership turned away, with the suspicion it might have been something to do with race.


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



*Tricky subject* this with cricket now under scrutiny.
I've been listening to the inquiry today.

Going back in time Frank Worrell became the first black cricketer to captain the West Indies cricket team for an entire series, thus breaking the colour barriers then found in West Indian cricket.
He led the side on two particularly notable tours. The first was to Australia in 1960–61. Prior to that the captain had to be a white man.
There was also the South African test team consisting of whites only. 
Then there was YCCC in the 1970's with unpleasant references to non white players.

Other sports include football, rugby and golf.
I've heard reports of non white applicants for golf membership turned away, with the suspicion it might have been something to do with race.
		
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*No it's not!!......* or certainly shouldn't be....  listening today it couldn't be 'outed' in a more direct & powerful way.....  can't wait to hear from our anti-woke warriors on here.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 16, 2021)




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## stefanovic (Nov 16, 2021)

As a white male I kind of know how some affected feel on this because it can work both ways.
Having travelled 80 miles for an interview for which I had the perfect skills I found that the interviewer had made up his mind about me within a minute and I was shown to the door. Totally gutted.
This is one big problem. We seem to be conditioned this way, and forget we are all members of the same species.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2021)

2blue said:



*No it's not!!......* or certainly shouldn't be....  listening today it couldn't be 'outed' in a more direct & powerful way.....  

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Agree with this. It might be an uncomfortable subject but it should not be tricky. Where it exists, call it out, expose it, stamp it out.

The language used within Yorkshire CCC that some players believed was acceptable is staggering. These players were/are younger than me so they can not play the card 'that it was okay back then' because it simply was not.


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2021)

It is there and it is, I suspect, in pretty much every sport from grass roots level up. Most of it will be thinly veiled as banter and part of the changing room atmosphere. Absolute rubbish. I am not proud of some of the things that I have seen and done playing rugby in the past but I can at least admit and appreciate how wrong it was. Sadly, many others do not want to see it or admit it. So, there is my admission, I have done and said things in the past that I am embarressed about and I unreservedly apologise for what I thought was normal and acceptable in 70s and 80s Britain. 

Lets look at the highest level of rugby and the Execter Chiefs, stereotyped image on their branding, crowds wear native american headresses and chant the rediculous 'tomahawk chop'. The Native Ameican council have come out and said it is wrong and offensive but the club, and the fans, still argue that it is all harmless fun. They still do not realise that they are not the ones with the right to call it harmless or not.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

2blue said:



*No it's not!!......* or certainly shouldn't be....  listening today it couldn't be 'outed' in a more direct & powerful way.....  can't wait to hear from our anti-woke warriors on here. 

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Well said. I find it personally disgusting in 2021 racism, sexism and homophobia are still a thing (to list just 3)

Fact we have no openly gay top level footballers when there will be a few just too scared to admit it. Disgusting they have to hide themselves


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## stefanovic (Nov 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Where it exists, call it out, expose it, stamp it out.
		
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Without proper education it could even become more polarised.


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## hairball_89 (Nov 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It is there and it is, I suspect, in pretty much every sport from grass roots level up. Most of it will be thinly veiled as banter and part of the changing room atmosphere. Absolute rubbish. I am not proud of some of the things that I have seen and done playing rugby in the past but I can at least admit and appreciate how wrong it was. Sadly, many others do not want to see it or admit it. So, there is my admission, I have done and said things in the past that I am embarressed about and I unreservedly apologise for what I thought was normal and acceptable in 70s and 80s Britain.

Lets look at the highest level of rugby and the Execter Chiefs, stereotyped image on their branding, crowds wear native american headresses and chant the rediculous 'tomahawk chop'. The Native Ameican council have come out and said it is wrong and offensive but the club, and the fans, still argue that it is all harmless fun. They still do not realise that they are not the ones with the right to call it harmless or not.
		
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Absolutely spot on. To add to your list:

my American Football team, the currently named Washington Football Team - formerly the Washington Redskins
Tottenham's Y*d Army
None of this is acceptable. Calling something "banter" is just a completely tiresome way of saying "I know this is offensive, but I don't care and am going to do it anyway". It saddens me greatly that things appear to be getting worse, not better.


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Pains me to say it but the worst examples I have seen recently of casual and even vindictive racism and have been on golf course and in golf clubhouses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2021)

Racism exists in all walks of life so there will be no doubt that it’s happening within all sports 

As with life the way to eradicate it is through education 

But unfortunately whilst humans inhabit the earth then there will always be a racist or a bigot who see themselves as superiors based on their skin colour , their religion , their social standing etc etc


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Racism exists in all walks of life so there will be no doubt that it’s happening within all sports

As with life the way to eradicate it is through education

But unfortunately whilst humans inhabit the earth then there will always be a racist or a bigot who see themselves as superiors based on their skin colour , their religion , their social standing etc etc
		
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I think that it is time to be harder than simply education at a grass roots level. With few people to explain the wrongs at sports clubs, a culture that is too ingrown at some levels and limited funds to send people on courses etc, how do you ensure education and change. Sadly I am at a stage where reports of racism at a sporting club should result in suspension then a ban and a report to the sport governing body. Sadly a number at my old golf club would probably last less than a month before they were out on their ear. Club committees should be obligated to produce an annual report on the instances of reported racism at the club each year with detials of the actions taken.


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think that it is time to be harder than simply education at a grass roots level. With few people to explain the wrongs at sports clubs, a culture that is too ingrown at some levels and limited funds to send people on courses etc, how do you ensure education and change. Sadly I am at a stage where reports of racism at a sporting club should result in suspension then a ban and a report to the sport governing body. Sadly a number at my old golf club would probably last less than a month before they were out on their ear. Club committees should be obligated to produce an annual report on the instances of reported racism at the club each year with detials of the actions taken.
		
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*^^^^ THIS......  *as 'education', on its own, is not enough.....  naive to think so.


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Out of interest, and bearing in mind htat I retired from playing rugby over a decade ago, do governing bodies or, in the case of football, groups like Kick it Out, actually do anything practical with clubs at a grass roots level. Do they come round and talk to players and committees and offer any form of education. 

There is much talk of moving forward through education but I am not sure where that education comes from and who it goes to. Never seen an anti racism poster in a golf club or any encouragement to report issues or, in fact, any training or information or 'education' available. Really cannot see the average Saturday morning 4 ball turning up for a 2 how lecture and case study on casual racism on a Wednesday night because one of them made a racist comment that they all thought was funny and harmless banter anyway. In my mind, and I may be wrong, the idea of 'dealing with it through education' is a cop out as the education and the follow up on any such education is simply not there at an amateur level and so to suggest dealing with racism in such a way is just another way of kicking the problem down the road.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think that it is time to be harder than simply education at a grass roots level. With few people to explain the wrongs at sports clubs, a culture that is too ingrown at some levels and limited funds to send people on courses etc, how do you ensure education and change. Sadly I am at a stage where reports of racism at a sporting club should result in suspension then a ban and a report to the sport governing body. Sadly a number at my old golf club would probably last less than a month before they were out on their ear. Club committees should be obligated to produce an annual report on the instances of reported racism at the club each year with detials of the actions taken.
		
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Yep sanctions should be in place and certainly something a lot stronger than what we see UEFA dish out


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As a white male I kind of know how some affected feel on this *because it can work both ways.*
Having travelled 80 miles for an interview for which I had the perfect skills I found that the interviewer had made up his mind about me within a minute and I was shown to the door. Totally gutted.
This is one big problem. We seem to be conditioned this way, and forget we are all members of the same species.
		
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Really? I can see why you thought it might be "tricky"?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Those who practice racism usually have never been singled out for a difference or are on the receiving end of it and use it as a coping mechanism or equalisation.
Having been on the end of it as a child and as an adult, I can only say it’s with us to stay, no amount of education will get rid of it. It is human nature to identify differences and then be unpleasant. Whilst we still have borders/politics/religion we will still abuse each other … face it we are an unpleasant bunch and none of us are clear of it, not even myself.
My parents were not happy I worked for a Japanese company, the Japanese did not consider me to be their equal. I was told off for partying with Japanese girls and they were lovely 🥰. But the day to day stuff of having to work harder to be accepted and have your work credited was tiresome. When they started to play up we used to whistle “Colonel Bogey” and get on with it … pretty sure all the English guys around us were laughing at it all.

I will try and frankly I don’t wish to upset anyone but somewhere down the line it will happen and it may be deemed acceptable now but in years to come it might not.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, and bearing in mind htat I retired from playing rugby over a decade ago, do governing bodies or, in the case of football, groups like Kick it Out, actually do anything practical with clubs at a grass roots level. Do they come round and talk to players and committees and offer any form of education.

There is much talk of moving forward through education but I am not sure where that education comes from and who it goes to. Never seen an anti racism poster in a golf club or any encouragement to report issues or, in fact, any training or information or 'education' available. Really cannot see the average Saturday morning 4 ball turning up for a 2 how lecture and case study on casual racism on a Wednesday night because one of them made a racist comment that they all thought was funny and harmless banter anyway. In my mind, and I may be wrong, the idea of 'dealing with it through education' is a cop out as the education and the follow up on any such education is simply not there at an amateur level and so to suggest dealing with racism in such a way is just another way of kicking the problem down the road.
		
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My son is 21 now but he played club rugby, football, cricket, basketball and golf as a junior. I was with him for most games, training sessions etc. There was no formal meeting, education etc on the matter of racism but  equally there was none on sexism, homophobia or other issues. It was left to coaches to deal with any unacceptable comment or behaviour. There were general behavioural standards, Respect programmes etc. but no specific sit down talks

Whilst players sometimes made daft or unpleasant comments about opposition players I never heard any that could come into the categories above and those comments were always picked up on quickly and squashed. Had a racist comment been made I have no doubt that the coaches would have descended on the individual very quickly and heavily. In answer to your question though, no, governing bodies do not go into grass roots clubs and talk about these subjects as a matter of course. That is not to say that is does not happen in some areas or clubs but my own experience suggests it is not standard practice.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As a white male I kind of know how some affected feel on this because it can work both ways.
Having travelled 80 miles for an interview for which I had the perfect skills I found that the interviewer had made up his mind about me within a minute and I was shown to the door. Totally gutted.
This is one big problem. We seem to be conditioned this way, and forget we are all members of the same species.
		
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Was the interviewer non-white and was it for a position in Sport you thought you had the perfect skills for as I don’t see were you can claim as a white male it works both ways in the instance you’ve mentioned in relation to the thread.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As a white male I kind of know how some affected feel on this because it can work both ways.
Having travelled 80 miles for an interview for which I had the perfect skills I found that the interviewer had made up his mind about me within a minute and I was shown to the door. Totally gutted.
This is one big problem. We seem to be conditioned this way, and forget we are all members of the same species.
		
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You didn’t get the job because you were a white male? Did it cross your mind the interviewer jut might not have liked you?


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## Beezerk (Nov 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Really? I can see why you thought it might be "tricky"?
		
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Go on, I’ll stick my neck out. 
In a non sporting situation, I was called a white b@***** by a group of Asian lads back when I lived in Rotherham.

I currently play for a Saturday morning football team and we have an Iranian fella play for us, he’s absolute legend at the club and we all love him to bits. He calls us white b@*****s as well along with other stuff every weekend in the changing room. Whether right of wrong it is 100% meant as banter and we take it as such.


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My son is 21 now but he played club rugby, football, cricket, basketball and golf as a junior. I was with him for most games, training sessions etc. There was no formal meeting, education etc on the matter of racism but  equally there was none on sexism, homophobia or other issues. It was left to coaches to deal with any unacceptable comment or behaviour. There were general behavioural standards, Respect programmes etc. but no specific sit down talks

Whilst players sometimes made daft or unpleasant comments about opposition players I never heard any that could come into the categories above and those comments were always picked up on quickly and squashed. Had a racist comment been made I have no doubt that the coaches would have descended on the individual very quickly and heavily. In answer to your question though, no, governing bodies do not go into grass roots clubs and talk about these subjects as a matter of course. That is not to say that is does not happen in some areas or clubs but my own experience suggests it is not standard practice.
		
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Guess this is my point. From many sides you hear the 'deal with it through education' standpoint (not just on here, seems to be the standard reply on Talksport) but I am yet to see evidence that any such education, any meaningful courses, even sitting a team in a room whilst a victim of racism explaining how it feels, what it means how barbed those little jokes feel. Basically we seem to have people arguing for a solution that does not exist.


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## Grizzly (Nov 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I currently play for a Saturday morning football team and we have an Iranian fella play for us, he’s absolute legend at the club and we all love him to bits. He calls us white b@*****s as well along with other stuff every weekend in the changing room. Whether right of wrong it is 100% meant as banter and we take it as such.
		
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But none of you know whether there's one guy there who is secretly chewed up about it...

I guess this is the point though - people quite rightly think of racism in the first instance as the big ticket stuff - hate crimes, BNP marches, turning someone down for a job because they're from the wrong ethnic background etc. and assume that because they don't hold "those" views they're fine.   I would imagine many of the people accused of things in this series of events comes into that category - in effect thinking that a bit of banter is okay because it is not done with malice.  

And no, its not alright in either direction.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Go on, I’ll stick my neck out.
In a non sporting situation, I was called a white b@***** by a group of Asian lads back when I lived in Rotherham.

I currently play for a Saturday morning football team and we have an Iranian fella play for us, he’s absolute legend at the club and we all love him to bits. He calls us white b@*****s as well along with other stuff every weekend in the changing room. Whether right of wrong it is 100% meant as banter and we take it as such.
		
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The reality is that someone in the club should take him to one side and tell him to stop it. If he doesn't understand why then ask him if it would be okay if the statement was altered and used against him. You get into the cricket territory at that point. I get that there is no malice meant, nor any taken, but that doesn't mean it is right.

Tell him he needs to find a new insult. Can't be that hard, I've met you


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## RichA (Nov 16, 2021)

I've worked for 25 years in an occupation where there have been many, many education sessions on various forms of bigotry. It's better than it used to be but it still exists.
I'm my own, narrow experience, the only way to suppress racism, sexism, homophobia and any other type of bigotry is to challenge it every time. It doesn't have to be a formal report - just make sure the perpetrator knows they haven't got a supportive audience. You'll never change some people, but you can make them feel uncomfortable and shut them up.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 16, 2021)

Until society changes its view on racism, it will continue in every walk of life unfortunately  

Hopefully this recent incident will be a line in the sand. Sadly, i think it will be the end of certain peoples careers which is wrong imo.


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## Piece (Nov 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Go on, I’ll stick my neck out.
In a non sporting situation, I was called a white b@***** by a group of Asian lads back when I lived in Rotherham.

I currently play for a Saturday morning football team and we have an Iranian fella play for us, he’s absolute legend at the club and we all love him to bits. *He calls us white b@*****s as well along with other stuff every weekend in the changing room. Whether right of wrong it is 100% meant as banter and we take it as such.*

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I've been in those type of changing rooms and it was banter, or our definition of banter. Similar to the Yorkshire CC dressing room those years ago with Rafiq, with those doing it thinking it was just banter. As Rafiq said in his powerful testimony this morning, (paraphrasing), "of course they don't remember it, because it meant nothing to them but it meant everything to me. I accepted it as the norm, until I realised it wasn't, and shouldn't ever be, the norm". Left unchallenged, the Yorkshire 'banter' grew and became even more obvious racism.


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## Beezerk (Nov 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The reality is that someone in the club should take him to one side and tell him to stop it. If he doesn't understand why then ask him if it would be okay if the statement was altered and used against him. You get into the cricket territory at that point. I get that there is no malice meant, nor any taken, but that doesn't mean it is right.

Tell him he needs to find a new insult. Can't be that hard, I've met you 

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Ha ha, thanks mate 😂

I don’t think pulling him to one side is going to happen, we’re a tight knit team and feels almost like an extended  family at times. Like I said we are all really good friends on and off the pitch and non of it has any malice.
Saying that though I don’t partake in this banter, doesn’t sit right with me if I’m honest, it does make you giggle at times but maybe for the wrong reasons 🤔


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Ha ha, thanks mate 😂

I don’t think pulling him to one side is going to happen, we’re a tight knit team and feels almost like an extended  family at times. Like I said we are all really good friends on and off the pitch and non of it has any malice.
Saying that though I don’t partake in this banter, doesn’t sit right with me if I’m honest, it does make you giggle at times but maybe for the wrong reasons 🤔
		
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LIke any form of discrimination it is about power.  Assuming your team is mainly made up of white males,  then the power balance lies there in which case the name calling at worst can only be described as a poor attempt at redressing the balance and in no way racist.  I agree though with the comments suggesting he would be best adviced to cease the practise.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 16, 2021)

The "You Guys Are History" documentary series about the black players that played cricket for England is very insightful and sometimes uncomfy viewing especially in light of the Rafiq evidence. It has clearly happened throughout sport and while racism is a hot topic are we naive in saying it doesn't go on at the top level?


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## drdel (Nov 16, 2021)

Using the morals and principles of today on the activities of the past when the context is long gone is very dangerous and can lead to trial by media.


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## RichA (Nov 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			Using the morals and principles of today on the activities of the past when the context is long gone is very dangerous and can lead to trial by media.
		
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The OP started the thread after listening to the inquiry into racism at Yorkshire CC that's alleged to have taken place within the last 5 years. That hardly qualifies as the past.


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			The OP started the thread after listening to the inquiry into racism at Yorkshire CC that's alleged to have taken place within the last 5 years. That hardly qualifies as the past.
		
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Mind you the anti-woke warriors will look for any reason to excuse it, as we are beginning to see. 🙄🙄


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			Mind you the anti-woke warriors will look for any reason to excuse it, as we are beginning to see. 🙄🙄
		
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Second try at baiting the anti-woke in this thread Dave! By the way being anti woke is nothing to do with racism, which is deplorable on levels


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Second try at baiting the anti-woke in this thread Dave! By the way being anti woke is nothing to do with racism, which is deplorable on levels
		
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Hello...  got you out in the end...  Not baiting just a matter of exposing old fashioned attitudes. 👍👍


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			Hello...  got you out in the end...  Not baiting just a matter of exposing old fashioned attitudes. 👍👍
		
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I have not expressed an attitude or view. Best dangle your spratt for someone else to have a nibble on!


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I have not expressed an attitude or view. Best dangle your spratt for someone else to have a nibble on!
		
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Wriggle, wriggle.......  Ooophs.....  swallowed whole.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Mind you the anti-woke warriors will look for any reason to excuse it, as we are beginning to see. 🙄🙄
		
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Why are you trying to derail this thread and turn it into the usual slanging match?

Probably through your prism I am Anti-Woke. I think BLM is a racist and dangerous group. I think taking a knee is an empty virtue signalling gesture, however listening to Azeem Rafiq yesterday giving evidence was horrendous, what he had to suffer on a daily basis was disgusting, and i found the bit where he was pinned down and had wine poured down his throat particularly upsetting. I hate bullying. Always have done. 

I think he has been incredibly brave to speak up and i hope this is a watershed moment for Cricket, It needs to sort its self out and be seen doing so. We need complete openness on the subject, Joe Root needs to stop giving cringey interviews like he did last week when he played the old Arsene Wenger "didn't see it" card and have the guts to say what went on. The time to bury it or even damage limitation is long gone. 

And I do not think Cricket is alone in this, I can imagine the RFU is feeling a little uncomfortable right now. Football I'm not so sure about, its always been a working class sport played in the inner cities and plenty of black lads have made it to the highest levels.


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## stefanovic (Nov 17, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Was the interviewer non-white and was it for a position in Sport you thought you had the perfect skills for as I don’t see were you can claim as a white male it works both ways in the instance you’ve mentioned in relation to the thread.
		
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No matter that the interviewer was male and white English, I was referring to the instant assessment some people take.

In the past I have been physically assaulted and robbed on several occasions by whites but more so by non whites. I'm an easier target than most because I'm a 9 stone weakling. This is sickening when it happens I can assure you. I was even sent right out of school when one day after being bullied mercilessly both both students and teachers (not kidding there) a boy was attempting to strangle me with my own tie when severely asthmatic. That turned out to be my last day at school so I never completed my formal education.
So, yeah I do understand how victims of racism feel.

I can also understand how some people get excluded from the tribe.
In the case of Asian cricketers who are taught to avoid alcohol, they can never participate in the bonding at the drinking club.
I was told at one cricket club that if you didn't drink at a certain pub you wouldn't get into the first team.
If you want to know more about this then read The Soccer Tribe by Desmond Morris (zoologist).

There's a saying that if you are white, male and 'English' you have won the lottery of life.
Implying that if you aren't you may well be treated as a lesser mortal.
This crazy and incorrect attitude has to change.

BTW, Mark Ramprakash mentioned this as a 'difficult subject' yesterday, so I don't know why 'tricky subject' should be incorrect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 17, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			No matter that the interviewer was male and white English, I was referring to the instant assessment some people take.

In the past I have been physically assaulted and robbed on several occasions by whites but more so by non whites. I'm an easier target than most because I'm a 9 stone weakling. This is sickening when it happens I can assure you. I was even sent right out of school when one day after being bullied mercilessly both both students and teachers (not kidding there) a boy was attempting to strangle me with my own tie when severely asthmatic. That turned out to be my last day at school so I never completed my formal education.
So, yeah I do understand how victims of racism feel.

I can also understand how some people get excluded from the tribe.
In the case of Asian cricketers who are taught to avoid alcohol, they can never participate in the bonding at the drinking club.
I was told at one cricket club that if you didn't drink at a certain pub you wouldn't get into the first team.
If you want to know more about this then read The Soccer Tribe by Desmond Morris (zoologist).

There's a saying that if you are white, male and 'English' you have won the lottery of life.
Implying that if you aren't you may well be treated as a lesser mortal.
This crazy and incorrect attitude has to change.

BTW, Mark Ramprakash mentioned this as a 'difficult subject' yesterday, so I don't know why 'tricky subject' should be incorrect.
		
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I “get” the bullying and totally agree it is wrong and been on both sides of it if I’m honest, although we called it an “initiation ceremony” in the Army.

But I’m sorry, I’d never try and say I know how a victim of racism feels, that’s a massive leap from being bullied or turned down for a job.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 17, 2021)

So a larger lady at the tennis club is regularly called 'fatso'/'kung fu panda'.  Regularly buys team shirts with those names on the back for her own amusement and has never complained, is infact encouraging of the names.

Its discussed with every new member and in my view is a ticking time bomb. 

Sure she loves the attention, but I can't help but wonder how many others players are offended at away matches, or don't join the club when they hear the general chatter in matches.

I have to fall on the 'it's never banter' side of this one....


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So a larger lady at the tennis club is regularly called 'fatso'/'kung fu panda'.  Regularly buys team shirts with those names on the back for her own amusement and has never complained, is infact encouraging of the names.

Its discussed with every new member and in my view is a ticking time bomb.

Sure she loves the attention, but I can't help but wonder how many others players are offended at away matches, or don't join the club when they hear the general chatter in matches.

I have to fall on the 'it's never banter' side of this one....
		
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I suffered bullying and racism at school. With hand on heart I can honestly say that by bringing up the insults herself she may well be, a) seeking to be part of the club, and b) looking to take the wind out of their sails.


Been there, done that.

But what about the long term damage? A couple of weeks ago 3 guys ‘bantered’ on me using terminology from 50 years ago. It still hurt very deeply, and brought back some very painful memories. Bullying, even just banter that targets an individual’s differences, fat/skinny/tall/small/black/white etc should not happen FULL STOP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So a larger lady at the tennis club is regularly called 'fatso'/'kung fu panda'.  Regularly buys team shirts with those names on the back for her own amusement and has never complained, is infact encouraging of the names.

Its discussed with every new member and in my view is a ticking time bomb.

Sure she loves the attention, but I can't help but wonder how many others players are offended at away matches, or don't join the club when they hear the general chatter in matches.

I have to fall on the 'it's never banter' side of this one....
		
Click to expand...

I fear that the lady has actually been very hurt by comments about her weight and is very self-conscious about it, and so she puts on a jolly front over it.  But I suspect that it is an act in an attempt to hide her upset - an act that helps her cope by deflection - and one that makes her feel attractive to others, when she feels that many might not find her attractive otherwise due to her weight.  But it is nonetheless a public act that most probably does not reflect her private thoughts. Sadly.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 18, 2021)

There is no place for racism either in or out of sport. However it is not consigned to just white people being rascist. My son was told by the parents he would not be accepted as a partner and possible future husband to an Indian woman who was born in the UK. Why? Because he was white. They have since split up.
The problems of racism unfortunately are ingrained in some people and some cultures. 
My daughter is a copper, she is hated by criminal Asians, they do not respect white women. Suffice to say when she arrests some Asians it is seen as embarrassing and demeaning to them to be arrested in front of there friends.
Any effort to address the issue of rascism is better than no effort. 👍


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## stefanovic (Nov 18, 2021)

Yes it does work both ways. I was told that unless I converted to Islam I could not marry a Muslim woman. I knew her for a few years, but will never see her again and I know she is still single.

Sport should be different as it tends to be a level playing field.

Cast your mind back to when Muirfield did not not allow women members. Even now I understand it only has a dozen.
How many non whites have gained entry?
Augusta did not allow non white members until relatively recent times.
Is golf institutionally racist?
What is the percentage of whites to non whites at your club?


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 18, 2021)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pologises-anti-Semitic-messages-Facebook.html

 he’s had a bit of a mare here 😬


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## Tashyboy (Nov 18, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pologises-anti-Semitic-messages-Facebook.html

he’s had a bit of a mare here 😬
		
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Oops am sure it’s just banter 😉👍


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 18, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Oops am sure it’s just banter 😉👍
		
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Obviously 😂


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pologises-anti-Semitic-messages-Facebook.html

he’s had a bit of a mare here 😬
		
Click to expand...

Proves my point everyone is racist…but having said that some stuff is set up like that as well and we haven’t addressed that.


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## 2blue (Nov 18, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Yes it does work both ways. I was told that unless I converted to Islam I could not marry a Muslim woman. I knew her for a few years, but will never see her again and I know she is still single.

Sport should be different as it tends to be a level playing field.

Cast your mind back to when Muirfield did not not allow women members. Even now I understand it only has a dozen.
How many non whites have gained entry?
Augusta did not allow non white members until relatively recent times.
Is golf institutionally racist?
*What is the percentage of whites to non whites at your club?*

Click to expand...

We've Club owners who are Muslim so a very great proportion compared to most Clubs......  it feels very healthy compared to my NE 'roots' back in the 60's


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 18, 2021)

Opens BBC website 

Catches glimpse of recent developments 

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Hypocrite. Massive, massive hypocrite.


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## Beezerk (Nov 18, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pologises-anti-Semitic-messages-Facebook.html

he’s had a bit of a mare here 😬
		
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You can't help but feel they've been keeping that back a while and it was entirely predicable the media attack would come at some point.


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			You can't help but feel they've been keeping that back a while and it was entirely predicable the media attack would come at some point.
		
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Maybe,but would the original source risk someone beating them to it?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Proves my point everyone is racist…but having said that some stuff is set up like that as well and we haven’t addressed that.
		
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It's a problem worldwide. You mentioned Japanese, I've worked a fair bit in Japan and found them to be extremely racist and sexist.  Hatred seems to exist in this country between Black and Asian people, homophobia is rampant among many races, it's not a white only issue by any means.

Someone mentioned the Exeter Chiefs previously and how their American Native chants and dress are a sign of institutional racism.  I just don't get that, surely they are using it as a sign of something representing strength and ability in their club, they surely aren't suggesting its to look inferior in some way.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a problem worldwide. You mentioned Japanese, I've worked a fair bit in Japan and found them to be extremely racist and sexist.  Hatred seems to exist in this country between Black and Asian people, homophobia is rampant among many races, it's not a white only issue by any means.

Someone mentioned the Exeter Chiefs previously and how their American Native chants and dress are a sign of institutional racism.  I just don't get that, surely they are using it as a sign of something representing strength and ability in their club, they surely aren't suggesting its to look inferior in some way.
		
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Yeah I don’t get the Exeter Chiefs thing either , in Gothenburg the ice hockey team is the Frolunda Indians … I just don’t see the racism


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frölunda_HC

just so you know I wasn’t making it up ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yeah I don’t get the Exeter Chiefs thing either , in Gothenburg the ice hockey team is the Frolunda Indians … I just don’t see the racism
		
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They changed the Washington Redskins to Washington Football team

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...otball-team-2020-nfl-latest-a9635001.html?amp


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They changed the Washington Redskins to Washington Football team

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...otball-team-2020-nfl-latest-a9635001.html?amp

Click to expand...

Bit different given the Americans have tried to remove the indigenous people and subjected them to untold abuse


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They changed the Washington Redskins to Washington Football team

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...otball-team-2020-nfl-latest-a9635001.html?amp

Click to expand...

And what a load of old rollocks that is. 

Made up Racism that even native Americans (who suffered a f’ing GENOCIDE) are at odds to back or denounce. 

You know as I sit and type This there are literally children across the globe being enslaved, human trafficked, exploited, raped and treated as worse as any colonial slave ever had to endure. 

There is also real nasty racism in the world.  The type that does not just hurt another persons sensibilities. 

I mean the type that Brutally and systematically murders other creed’s, colours and kinds. This is sometimes sectarian or sometimes just good old fashioned ethnic cleansing. 

Genocide of peoples and cultures who's whole history is being wiped from the face of humanity. This is happening in many many countries. This is standard behaviour in many (not all) ‘non western’ counties. 

The world is full to the brim with this stuff. 

It needs addressing and the  Perpetrators need to be dealt with extreme prejudice. 

But here’s the thing. 

No one cares about that.  

No. Instead the UK falls over itself to give sympathy to a successful individual who at a few points in his life was a recipient of a few bad words or acts by people who made him sup a beer or had the absolute nerve to invite him into ‘their’ culture. 

Better still it turns out that poor victim is just as bad as the people he blames for being hurtful to him. 

I absolutely despair at the complete mess we are in and attention we bestow on people who in the grand scheme of suffering, literally are as protected and as Privileged as anybody.

Edit. That is not aimed at you Phil. 

More the article you posted.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 19, 2021)

Racism needs to be addressed socially in society, until then racism will exist in sport and everywhere else. Racism doesn't exist only because of sport. 

It's a generation issue imo. 

We've seen well educated, powerful people blatantly using  racist langauge and getting away with it. Infact they end up running the bloody country🤦


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 19, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Yes it does work both ways. I was told that unless I converted to Islam I could not marry a Muslim woman[1]. I knew her for a few years, but will never see her again and I know she is still single.

Sport should be different as it tends to be a level playing field.

Cast your mind back to when Muirfield did not not allow women members. Even now I understand it only has a dozen.[2]
How many non whites have gained entry?
Augusta did not allow non white members until relatively recent times.
Is golf institutionally racist? [3]
What is the percentage of whites to non whites at your club?[4]
		
Click to expand...

So much here to discuss 
[1] Why didn't you? Makes no odds surely, they can't drag you to a mosque every weekend can they? I had a mate married a Canadian girl, Catholic upbringing in Belfast, converted to Jewish to allow him to marry her.
[2] It was PC nonsense, that figure shows there was no clamour from women to get in, just like there's no clamour for men to join women only clubs
[3] I don't think so any more than basketball, it's just a sport that tends to have been played by white people more than other sports that black people (Basketball) or Asain people (cricket) tend to be more dominant. How many black or Asian NHL players?
[4] We have one black member out of 300ish members, but that is fairly representative of Aberdeenshire, indeed as far as I can recall, they are the only black family in the area (we have a catchment area only for membership) so we have 100% black membership strike rate . The local cricket club is nearly all Asian players now.


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## stefanovic (Nov 20, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			[1] Why didn't you? Makes no odds surely, they can't drag you to a mosque every weekend can they? I had a mate married a Canadian girl, Catholic upbringing in Belfast, converted to Jewish to allow him to marry her.
		
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Don't really follow your logic.
Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and attend mosque of Fridays.
Why do you have to become an apostate just to marry someone?
You can't even be Catholic and Protestant let alone Catholic and Jewish.

As an irregular Catholic I discussed the matter of marriage to a Muslim with the local priest.
I was informed that I was allowed to marry her but any children would need to brought up as Catholics.
After that piece of nonsense I stopped going to church.
That alone proves how divisive faith is.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 20, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Don't really follow your logic.
Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and attend mosque of Fridays.
Why do you have to become an apostate just to marry someone?
You can't even be Catholic and Protestant let alone Catholic and Jewish.

As an irregular Catholic I discussed the matter of marriage to a Muslim with the local priest.
I was informed that I was allowed to marry her but any children would need to brought up as Catholics.
After that piece of nonsense I stopped going to church.
That alone proves how divisive faith is.
		
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You've just followed my logic, go and do whatever needs doing to be "muslim", you don't then have to go and pray 5 times a day. That's nonsense, just don't do it.  And my mate wasn't catholic & jewish, he "converted". I doubt he's been to church since. It's all a load of pish


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You've just followed my logic, go and do whatever needs doing to be "muslim", you don't then have to go and pray 5 times a day. That's nonsense, just don't do it.  And my mate wasn't catholic & jewish, he "converted". I doubt he's been to church since. It's all a load of pish
		
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To some people swearing an oath is not something they would do lightly or falsely.


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## Orikoru (Nov 22, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Don't really follow your logic.
Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and attend mosque of Fridays.
Why do you have to become an apostate just to marry someone?
You can't even be Catholic and Protestant let alone Catholic and Jewish.

As an irregular Catholic I discussed the matter of marriage to a Muslim with the local priest.
I was informed that I was allowed to marry her but any children would need to brought up as Catholics.
After that piece of nonsense I stopped going to church.
That alone proves how divisive faith is.
		
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I got married in a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic at all, but my wife's family is. They said the same, that it was fine as long as our future children will be brought up as Catholics. We just said yeah fine. Seemed like an easy one.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 22, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I got married in a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic at all, but my wife's family is. They said the same, that it was fine as long as our future children will be brought up as Catholics. We just said yeah fine. Seemed like an easy one.
		
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But your children will be yours, not there’s. My wifes parents are/were evangelicals and there is no way on earth I am subjecting my girls to their doctrine and mantra. Now my youngest is expecting, she has already told her grandma that she doesn’t want her preaching to her or her new forthcoming daughter.


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## Orikoru (Nov 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But your children will be yours, not there’s. My wifes parents are/were evangelicals and there is no way on earth I am subjecting my girls to their doctrine and mantra. Now my youngest is expecting, she has already told her grandma that she doesn’t want her preaching to her or her new forthcoming daughter.
		
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Don't worry, we have no intention of raising super-religious children. My point was it was a silly requirement but an easy one to agree to. If our children grow up not religious, or following Buddhism or something, then what are the Catholic church going to do about it?? Not much I shouldn't think.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2021)

The last three posts for me endorse where part of the problem lays in a multicultural respectful society. Today’s generation understands the needs to change, older generations still Expect older cultures to carry on as they were.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 22, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Don't worry, we have no intention of raising super-religious children. My point was it was a silly requirement but an easy one to agree to. If our children grow up not religious, or following Buddhism or something, then what are the Catholic church going to do about it?? Not much I shouldn't think.
		
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But her parents will expect them to be Catholic and attend church.......
Obviously if up to you, but I dont think any parents should stipulate how your prospective children should be brought up.


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## Orikoru (Nov 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But her parents will expect them to be Catholic and attend church.......
Obviously if up to you, but I dont think any parents should stipulate how your prospective children should be brought up.


Click to expand...

I think you've misunderstood my original post actually. The church said that our children should be Catholic if they are to marry us in their church. It wasn't my wife's family that said that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 22, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I think you've misunderstood my original post actually. The church said that our children should be Catholic if they are to marry us in their church. It wasn't my wife's family that said that.
		
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Sounds like I did...... watch the film "Spotlight"......then tell me youre doing as the Catholic church asks....
Personally, I would have told them to get stuffed at the outset


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			...
That alone proves how divisive faith is.
		
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IMO, it's not 'faith' that is divisive; it's the practitioners of faith(s) that are!
Look up the source of 'zealot' for example. Or the number of wars/persecutions through the centuries (including civil wars) waged primarily on religious grounds!


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## Orikoru (Nov 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sounds like I did...... watch the film "Spotlight"......then tell me youre doing as the Catholic church asks....
Personally, I would have told them to get stuffed at the outset

Click to expand...

Wife wanted a church wedding and it had to be Catholic so the best approach was to say "yeah whatever". 🤣


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Don't really follow your logic.
Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and attend mosque of Fridays.
Why do you have to become an apostate just to marry someone?
You can't even be Catholic and Protestant let alone Catholic and Jewish.

As an irregular Catholic I discussed the matter of marriage to a Muslim with the local priest.
I was informed that I was allowed to marry her but *any children would need to brought up as Catholics*.
After that piece of nonsense I stopped going to church.
That alone proves how divisive faith is.
		
Click to expand...

Or what? The marriage would be retrospectively cancelled?

I was brought up Catholic (in NI, so it means more than just going to Mass), but gave it all up years ago. 

I would just got ahead with the marriage in wherever I wanted and decide what to do afterwards later.


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## stefanovic (Nov 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, it's not 'faith' that is divisive; it's the practitioners of faith(s) that are!
		
Click to expand...

Faith is a metaphor for absence of evidence. But they don't want you to know that.




			Look up the source of 'zealot' for example. Or the number of wars/persecutions through the centuries (including civil wars) waged primarily on religious grounds!
		
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Actually, wars are mainly waged on slight genetic variations between races. But they don't want you to know that, either.
In the case of Catholic v Protestant it's quite unsettling how many people have been killed in Europe over a dispute over whether bread and wine is transformed into body and blood or not.


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			... go and do whatever needs doing to be "muslim", you don't then have to go and pray 5 times a day. That's nonsense, just don't do it....
		
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You are simply demonstrating that you have no idea what 'being a muslim' involves! Salah (Prayer) is the 2nd of 5 'Pillars of Islam'!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You are simply demonstrating that you have no idea what 'being a muslim' involves! Salah (Prayer) is the 2nd of 5 'Pillars of Islam'!
		
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Communion etc for christianity, how many folks are wedding/funeral church-goers? 

just because you're a "religion x-er", doesn't mean you have to follow all the hocus pocus.


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Communion etc for christianity, how many folks are wedding/funeral church-goers?

just because you're a "religion x-er", doesn't mean you have to follow all the hocus pocus.
		
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My post was purely about your lack of knowledge of Islam! Which you still don't seem to have grasped!
Prayer (Salah) is an absolutely essential/fundamental part of Islam! 
Your comment might apply to many facets of (supposed) Protestant - or even 'non-fundamentalist' areas of other - faiths, but NOT to Islam in any way shape or form!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			My post was purely about your lack of knowledge of Islam! Which you still don't seem to have grasped!
Prayer (Salah) is an absolutely essential/fundamental part of Islam!
Your comment might apply to many facets of (supposed) Protestant - or even 'non-fundamentalist' areas of other - faiths, but NOT to Islam in any way shape or form!
		
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Indeed, I pay no attention to any of it, it's all hocus pocus. 

What I meant tho, as you should have grasped, was that the guy could have just gone along with his "conversion" and kept his fiancee, then not bother going to church, he's done his "conversion" . It's all "essential", folks don't though do they?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Indeed, I pay no attention to any of it, it's all hocus pocus.

What I meant tho, as you should have grasped, was that the guy could have just gone along with his "conversion" and kept his fiancee, then not bother going to church, he's done his "conversion" . It's all "essential", folks don't though do they?
		
Click to expand...

If you've not paid any attention then how do you know it's hocus pocus?


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Indeed, I pay no attention to any of it...
		
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That's obvious as you STILL don't seemed to have grasped the point of my posts that you quoted!
And the 'What I meant tho, as you should have grasped' (I did btw) is irrelevant to my post - as you should be able to grasp!
Kindly restrict replying to my posts to the actual content of them - or at least delineate any additional comment!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2021)

Bringing back into a sporting realm, Essex is another county that seems to have players making some serious allegations https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59388331


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If you've not paid any attention then how do you know it's hocus pocus?
		
Click to expand...


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 24, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That's obvious as you STILL don't seemed to have grasped the point of my posts that you quoted!
And the 'What I meant tho, as you should have grasped' (I did btw) is irrelevant to my post - as you should be able to grasp!
Kindly restrict replying to my posts to the actual content of them - or at least delineate any additional comment!
		
Click to expand...

OK, so what you're saying is Muslims are more religiony than other religions?


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## Foxholer (Nov 24, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			OK, so what you're saying is Muslims are more religiony than other religions?
		
Click to expand...

No I'm not! Kindly desist from posting any 'interpretation' of what you think I mean - you've missed the point/been wrong every time! 

But feel free to blunder your way to whatever pre-conceived or misinterpreted conclusion you want!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 24, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bringing back into a sporting realm, Essex is another county that seems to have players making some serious allegations https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59388331

Click to expand...


The whole story seems to be slipping from the public gaze after Rafiq was unfortunately shown up as a bit of a hypocrite. Complaining about fundamental racism in cricket whilst ignoring the fundamental racism in Islam.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 24, 2021)

Foxholer said:



*No I'm not! *Kindly desist from posting any 'interpretation' of what you think I mean - you've missed the point/been wrong every time!

But feel free to blunder your way to whatever pre-conceived or misinterpreted conclusion you want!
		
Click to expand...

OK then, so I don't accept your statement before that he couldn't have "converted", got married, and then never seen the inside of a mosque again. Just as my mate who "became Jewish" to get married, or indeed myself attending some sort of bizarre private meeting with the minister so we could get married in a church. I was never inside that church again, and indeed have never been inside any church except for weddings/funerals. Just don't attend.


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## Foxholer (Nov 24, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			OK then, so I don't accept your statement before....
		
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Your prerogative.
As this mini-thread has come full circle, I see no benefit in contributing to it any more.


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## stefanovic (Nov 24, 2021)

Call to order please.
No getting away from the fact that Muslims are expected to pray 5 times a day.
In cricket, as opposed to other team sports, there are many Muslims playing the professional game.
I'm guessing they need to find a quiet place to pray in the pavilion sometimes and this is is what upsets some of their team mates.
Remember that sport is tribal and if you leave the mainstream you could well be unfairly targeted.


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2021)

Honest question from my own ignorance.  How long does a typical Muslim prayer session last?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:





Click to expand...

Yes, your comment was worth a grin.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Call to order please.
No getting away from the fact that Muslims are expected to pray 5 times a day.
In cricket, as opposed to other team sports, there are many Muslims playing the professional game.
I'm guessing they need to find a quiet place to pray in the pavilion sometimes and this is is what upsets some of their team mates.
Remember that sport is tribal and if you leave the mainstream you could well be unfairly targeted.
		
Click to expand...

Why would anyone get *upset* by a colleague, teammate or friend taking some time out from whatever to engage in some personal quiet prayer.


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## oxymoron (Nov 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why would anyone get *upset* by a colleague, teammate or friend taking some time out from whatever to engage in some personal quiet prayer.
		
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I suppose if its a process environment if someone leaves multiple times a shift to pray or whatever , then some one has to take up the slack ,therefore they will be doing their work as well as someone else's .
This may be ok for a short while but inevitably lead to ill feeling if it becomes a long term issue.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, your comment was worth a grin.
		
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Oh I see, you think "god" exists? And yet there are multiple religions all saying their god is god, some even have multiple gods? I'm sorry if reality is not your thing, but there is no "god"


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Honest question *from my own ignorance*.  How long does a typical Muslim prayer session last?
		
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Does that also extend to an 'ignorance' of Google?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Oh I see, you think "god" exists? And yet there are multiple religions all saying their god is god, some even have multiple gods? I'm sorry if reality is not your thing, but there is no "god"
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear!


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Oh I see, you think "god" exists? And yet there are multiple religions all saying their god is god, some even have multiple gods? *I'm sorry if reality is not your thing, but there is no "god"*

Click to expand...

Er..Please explain how you *know* that?


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Er..Please explain how you *know* that?
		
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Can't explain something that doesn't exist, there is no such thing as a god. How do I prove it? Well you can;t prove there is despite presumably thinking there is? Evidence is kinda lacking eh?


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear!
		
Click to expand...

Oh correct you mean


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Can't explain something that doesn't exist, there is no such thing as a god. How do I prove it? Well you can;t prove there is despite presumably thinking there is? Evidence is kinda lacking eh?
		
Click to expand...

So...Your 'faith/belief' that there is no (such thing as) God(s) is no different to the faith of others who believe that God(s) exist(s)!
Watch out for the teapot next time you travel btw!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 25, 2021)

Back on track please


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Oh correct you mean 

Click to expand...

No, I meant 'Oh Dear'


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I meant 'Oh Dear'
		
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Lost me. I'll duck out.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Does that also extend to an 'ignorance' of Google?
		
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I hope you feel better for the snide comment.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Lost me. I'll duck out.
		
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Bye. Maybe it can get back on track now.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			So...Your 'faith/belief' that there is no (such thing as) God(s) is no different to the faith of others who believe that God(s) exist(s)!
Watch out for the teapot next time you travel btw!
		
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No, there is no evidence of a "god", that's not faith, that's a fact unless proven otherwise, and despite all the religions of the world claiming to have a "god", not one ever has been able to show any evidience. It's not up to me to prove there's no god, it's up to those who say there is to prove it. Obviously 

You seem not just to be struggling with the concept of "god" but also what constitutes proof.


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			No, there is no evidence of a "god", that's not faith, that's a fact unless proven otherwise, and despite all the religions of the world claiming to have a "god", not one ever has been able to show any evidience. It's not up to me to prove there's no god, it's up to those who say there is to prove it. Obviously

You seem not just to be struggling with the concept of "god" but also what constitutes proof.
		
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I'd go as far as to say that the evidence that there is no God is that the devastation that Covid has caused would have been easy to stop had a "God" been looking over us, and cared to act


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2021)

Without wanting to be that person, I'll be that person. The thread is racism in sport, not religion in sport or life. Start another thread about religion,..........(or don't)


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## Fade and Die (Nov 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Without wanting to be that person, I'll be that person. The thread is racism in sport, not religion in sport or life. Start another thread about religion,..........*(or don't)*

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Best advice. 

I think discussing religion should be on the banned list with Politics. No ground is ever conceded and it just descends into a bitter argument.

Also throughout history there have been up to 8/12000 different Gods but only yours is the real one?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Without wanting to be that person, I'll be that person. The thread is racism in sport, not religion in sport or life. Start another thread about religion,..........(or don't)
		
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What he said 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 26, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Best advice. 

I think discussing religion should be on the banned list
		
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Wouldn't argue with that.



Fade and Die said:



*with Politics.* No ground is ever conceded and it just descends into a bitter argument.

Also throughout history there have been up to 8/12000 different Gods but only yours is the real one? 

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No; those that were debating it sensibly should have been allowed to continue, those that couldn't behave should have been banned.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 26, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Wouldn't argue with that.



No; those that were debating it sensibly should have been allowed to continue, those that couldn't behave should have been banned.  

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I used to love reading and commenting on the Politico threads and learned a lot re Brexit & Scottish independence etc from some very intelligent posters, unfortunately they need almost full time moderation so I can see why they binned them. I can see your point in banning a few intransigents but some of the swivel eyed loons are good contributors on other threads.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 26, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I used to love reading and commenting on the Politico threads and learned a lot re Brexit & Scottish independence etc from some very intelligent posters, unfortunately they need almost full time moderation so I can see why they binned them. I can see your point in banning a few intransigents but* some of the swivel eyed loons are good contributors on other threads.*

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I'm trying to think of which swivel eyed loons you're referring to as from memory I think a few more threads than the political ones suffered...


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## stefanovic (Nov 26, 2021)

Guys, 'may your god go with you' (as stated by Dave Allen) then return to this thread to discuss the extent of racism in sport and not politics or religion.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Guys, 'may your god go with you' (as stated by Dave Allen) then return to this thread to discuss the extent of racism in sport and not politics or religion.
		
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 OK, but you started it 

Anyway, I am now out, out. Enjoy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'd go as far as to say that the evidence that there is no God is that the devastation that Covid has caused would have been easy to stop had a "God" been looking over us, and cared to act
		
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Since you mention it, in this sort of discussion it is perhaps worth understanding that not all Christian traditions believe in a God that controls everything that happens…and conversely in a God that can stop things happening.  This coming from the fact that not all Christian traditions today take that the scriptures are the word of God to be adhered to faithfully and without question.  This is why in many traditions, for example many reformed traditions - when scripture is read the reading is ‘introduced‘ by the reader saying ‘Let is listen *for* the word of God’, rather than ‘Let us listen *to* the word of God’.  A very significant difference.  Glad to be of help. 👍😊

Anyway…back to racism.


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## stefanovic (Nov 27, 2021)

Back to basics.
Michael Vaughan interviewed today and pleading his innocence.
Not sure myself so what did you make of it?
I'm going to just say that he made a mistake and would now like to make amends.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 27, 2021)

C'mon H. After several calls, including from Fragger some 9 hrs beforehand, you still had to put in a post contrary to those wishes.


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## Billysboots (Nov 27, 2021)

Michael Vaughan interviewed today and pleading his innocence.
Not sure myself so what did you make of it?
I'm going to just say that he made a mistake and would now like to make amends.
		
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As I said on the cricket thread, is this an apology or a man scrambling to salvage his career? I’m leaning towards the latter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2021)

Listening to Michael Vaughan this morning I wish in his assertions of innocence to the charges laid that he had found words that expressed an admission that he may have been at fault in his use of words in the past, and that he apologises for the upset that these words had caused.  Instead he is sorry that those raising the complaints have been upset.  These are the sort of weasel words politicians use to avoid telling the truth, and Vaughan should realise that, and understand that we all know the truth of what the politician is not saying.  Honesty is always the best policy as things will only get worse if honesty is avoided.


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm - it appears that some think that there is one single interpretation of the scriptures - though not sure who the authority would be or have been who came up with that interpretation - that somehow that interpretation was the correct one, and that the reformation and continuing reforming that some traditions hold don’t actually count.  If I don’t believe that Adam and Eve were real people then I can’t be a real Christian - is that how it is.  Ah right.

BTW…in my tradition we don’t have ‘faith leaders’ or anyone who tells me what I should believe and what I should not believe.

And just for information - nobody ‘forces‘ me to contribute a single penny to my church and there is no expectation that I should - and there is no questioning or push back if I don’t contribute.

Glad to be of help.

And so back to racism in sport.

Listening to Michael Vaughan this morning I wish in his assertions of innocence to the charges laid that he had found words that expressed an admission that he may have been at fault in his use of words in the past, and that he apologises for the upset that these words had caused.  Instead he is sorry that those raising the complaints have been upset.  These are the sort of weasel words politicians use to avoid telling the truth, and Vaughan should realise that, and understand that we all know the truth of what the politician is not saying.  Honesty is always the best policy as things will only get worse if honesty is avoided.
		
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Vaughan does apologise for anything he may have said…”if in any way shape or form I’m responsible for any of his hurt, I apologise for that.”

Is Vaughan lying when he says he “doesn’t remember the incident or recognise those words?” We don’t know. But we do know there were witnesses that remember, and also another Asian who was there who doesn’t remember Vaughan saying racist things. Take your pick.


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## brendy (Nov 28, 2021)

Last warning folks, next mention of religion gets a week in the cooler with no baseball for company.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2021)

brendy said:



			Last warning folks, next mention of religion gets a week in the cooler with no baseball for company.
		
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I would point out that my posts on that matter are simply to *inform* on matters of fact in respect of some traditions, where posts indicate there is misunderstanding on the part of the poster, or where inaccurate or incorrect generalisations are made.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would point out that my posts on that matter are simply to *inform* on matters of fact in respect of some traditions, where posts indicate there is misunderstanding on the part of the poster, or where inaccurate or incorrect generalisations are made.
		
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No, they are not. They are pushing your point of view when all have been asked not to. You have done it three times.
You are a past master at pushing the patience of the mods.
The result is your P.O.V is shown and any rebuttal doesn't happen because others obey the rules.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, they are not. They are pushing your point of view when all have been asked not to. You have done it three times.
You are a past master at pushing the patience of the mods.
The result is your P.O.V is shown and any rebuttal doesn't happen because others obey the rules.
		
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They are not my POV - they are me trying to explain that not all traditions are the same and that when other posters post inaccurate *generalisations *it is not unreasonable for me to point out the inaccuracies.  That is all I am doing.

If  posters refrain from posting inaccurate generalisations on religious beliefs or indeed refrain from posting anything whatsoever in that respect, as requested by the mods, then I would not feel the need to correct the inaccuracies and explain where there are differences. 

Further, if the mods remove posts containing reference to religion then I have zero issue in my ‘for information’ responses being removed also.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2021)

Guys we had politics banned, because it was getting out of hand
All religious discussion is rapidly heading the same way


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## stefanovic (Nov 28, 2021)

Nothing is more inflammatory than politics and religion.
If you want to comment on these then simply go to a different forum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Nothing is more inflammatory than politics and religion.
If you want to comment on these then simply go to a different forum.
		
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Or maybe we respect the forum rules which as of today does not ban religious comments!
It’s not your job to tell people what forums they should or should not join.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe we respect the forum rules which as of today does not ban religious comments!
It’s not your job to tell people what forums they should or should not join.
		
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Paul, wind yer neck in please, The Mods are the Forum police, not you


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Paul, wind yer neck in please, The Mods are the Forum police, not you
		
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How is my comment any worse than the one I replied to?
Surely to want us users to abide by the rules?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Don't really follow your logic.
Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and attend mosque of Fridays.
Why do you have to become an apostate just to marry someone?
You can't even be Catholic and Protestant let alone Catholic and Jewish.

As an irregular Catholic I discussed the matter of marriage to a Muslim with the local priest.
I was informed that I was allowed to marry her but any children would need to brought up as Catholics.
After that piece of nonsense I stopped going to church.
That alone proves how divisive faith is.
		
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stefanovic said:



			Nothing is more inflammatory than politics and religion.
If you want to comment on these then simply go to a different forum.
		
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🤔


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2021)

Some need to Go out and play some golf ⛳️


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some need to Go out and play some golf ⛳️
		
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But it’s dark…


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2021)

That’s enough Thread closed


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