# The Words of Wisdom of Boris Johnson - Foreign Secretary



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2016)

Love him or hate him our Foreign Secretary is cast from a different mold from most. And his utterances are I think worthy of a thread of their own - as we track the wisdom of Boris Johnson from pre-referendum vote through the negotiatons; into life post-Brexit.  And see how his counterparts and others overseas react.

Not sure how he'll get on as he grows into his job as Foreign Secretary, or how successful he'll be as he tries to become more diplomatic in his utterances - but we'll see.  

And in this thread I'm not suggesting we debate the rights or wrongs of his statements - just his language and others reaction 

Let's start with a couple from this week
*
On Freedom of Movement*

_It is a â€œmythâ€ and "bollocks" that the free movement of people is one of the European Unionâ€™s founding principles, according to Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.

Shortly after Mr Johnsonâ€™s interview appeared, the Prime Ministerâ€™s spokeswoman said: â€œThe point the Foreign Secretary made in that interview was about how the concept of free movement of people has evolved over the life of the European Union.â€_

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...movement-myth-immigration-eu-uk-a7419026.html

*On Prosecco and Fish and Chips*

_Boris Johnson has been accused of "insulting" an Italian minister in a bizarre Brexit row about who would sell more prosecco or fish and chips. 

Mr Johnson had suggested Italy should back a generous post-EU deal to avoid losing sales of the sparkling wine, it is claimed.

But Italian economic development minister Carlo Calenda said Mr Johnson's approach to EU withdrawal appeared to be based on "wishful thinking"._

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-with-insulted-italian-minister-a3397396.html


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## drdel (Nov 17, 2016)

^^^ You say you don't want to debate the 'rights and wrongs' of his statements but you selectively pick quotes to ridicule the man's phraseology.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2016)

drdel said:



			^^^ You say you don't want to debate the 'rights and wrongs' of his statements but you selectively pick quotes to ridicule the man's phraseology.
		
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Yes indeed I did. He is our Foreign Secretary and should not be saying such ridiculous things.  Any sensible things he says are getting lost in the nonsense.

The purpose of this is to see whether he is able to move from a position of saying such daft things, to one of being a diplomat and getting the recognition from others that the UK Foreign Secretary is due.  Because at the moment his utterances make us a bit of a laughing stock, and no-one is taking him seriously.  If he is to remain FS he has to be taken seriously. 

The 'rights and wrongs' of what he says can be debated under the Article 50 thread - no point in splitting that discussion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 17, 2016)

I personally think that the word "bollocks" should be used more often in diplomatic circles

might actually result in getting some things done.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I personally think that the word "bollocks" should be used more often in diplomatic circles

might actually result in getting some things done.
		
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As most of them speak bollocks I doubt they would get anything done


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## hors limite (Nov 17, 2016)

It  seems that Johnson is intelligent,comes from a background of wealth and privilege and has enjoyed an enviable education and career. However, all this seems to have left him without any humility or self awareness. All his advantages seem to have provided him a sense that he is "fireproof". Whatever scrapes personally or professionally he has landed himself in, he has known that he would land on his feet.
He now finds himself holding one of the highest offices of state in the land. At this particular time of Trump and Brexit, the last thing we want is a Foreign Secretary who indulges himself by giving gratuitous offence to the very people whose cooperation we will desperately need. He needs to rein in his ego and think about his responsibilities.


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 17, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I personally think that the word "bollocks" should be used more often in diplomatic circles

might actually result in getting some things done.
		
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And long may we able to keep using the word BOLLOCKS on this forum without getting an infraction!


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The 'rights and wrongs' of what he says can be debated under the Article 50 thread - no point in splitting that discussion.
		
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Both quotes are about the EU, and you don't see a point in splitting the discussion... Mmm, now there's a good example of bollocks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 17, 2016)

Why would you want a thread about one political person when everything he says or does is always related to a subject that is already been discussed to death on multiple other threads - is this the equivalent of Roland Garros for yours and Socket Rockets verbal tennis in regards "EU/Brexit" ?!?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Both quotes are about the EU, and you don't see a point in splitting the discussion... Mmm, now there's a good example of bollocks.
		
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I don't - I am only quoting what he says.  Agree or Disagree with what he says if you want.  My OP was about his careless use of language and how he expresses his ideas through silliness - of which he has discovered folks in the UK have found funny and endearing - but in his position as FS paints him as an idiot, rude and buffoon.

Anyway - sod it - close it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 17, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			And long may we able to keep using the word BOLLOCKS on this forum without getting an infraction!
		
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I was "quoting". However the forum server employs a sweary word filter which replaces sweary words with asterisks, so if you set that off its naughty step as is swearing with asterisks to disguise your sweary word.

the fact that this word does not trigger the filter means that it is not on the naughty list
However I would only like to see it used in extreme moderation and not flung around willy nilly, so to speak

gratuitous use will still incur the wraith of The Global Moderators


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## Imurg (Nov 17, 2016)

Conversational Gonads if you ask me.....&#128533;


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 17, 2016)

Straight from the Duke of Edinburgh cultural handbook


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## Tashyboy (Nov 17, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was "quoting". However the forum server employs a sweary word filter which replaces sweary words with asterisks, so if you set that off its naughty step as is swearing with asterisks to disguise your sweary word.

the fact that this word does not trigger the filter means that it is not on the naughty list
However I would only like to see it used in extreme moderation and not flung around willy nilly, so to speak

gratuitous use will still incur the wraith of The Global Moderators
		
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PhilTheFragger, a man of Great fortitude and held in the highest of esteem By all who wish to follow in his footsteps on this hallowed forum.
However Phil, ones thoughts on the word Bollocks also known as bollox to those who use the word on a regular basis are of poor Judgement.

The use of the word Bollocks goes back to the 13th century Oxford dictionary, and was used in the first ever English bible in the 14th century. It is a word that can be used as both a negative ( Bollocks I think I have lost that ball, bollocks that lipped out). Also as a positive, ( that putt was the dogs Bollocks, you had some Bollocks playing that shot over the water).
On the course it can be used as example of today's weather " am freezing me bollocks off", although that is a bit limited to male playing Side. It can be used to ask your partner to be quiet for a bit " you have talked Bollocks for 16 holes". 
The last sentance may well be pointed in Boris Johnsons direction re " talking bollocks", but using the same word, others think he is the " Bollocks". 

Hope all the above " Bollockspeak" helps.&#128077;


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would you want a thread about one political person when everything he says or does is always related to a subject that is already been discussed to death on multiple other threads - is this the equivalent of Roland Garros for yours and Socket Rockets verbal tennis in regards "EU/Brexit" ?!?
		
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As well as some of the bollox you have posted


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 17, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was "quoting". However the forum server employs a sweary word filter which replaces sweary words with asterisks, so if you set that off its naughty step as is swearing with asterisks to disguise your sweary word.

the fact that this word does not trigger the filter means that it is not on the naughty list
However I would only like to see it used in extreme moderation and not flung around willy nilly, so to speak

gratuitous use will still incur the wraith of The Global Moderators
		
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hey relax, legally we are on a sound footing ;-)

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/...er_defends_sex_pistols_in_bollocks_trial_1977


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## JohnnyDee (Nov 17, 2016)

My favourite quotes of Bozza's go as follows.

I-I-I-I-I I-I-I-I-I I-I-I-I-I... Well-well-well-well Well-well-well-well Well-well-well-well

Bluster-bluster-bluster-bluster Bluster-bluster-bluster-bluster Bluster-bluster-bluster-bluster 

*Shakes dishevelled blond hair a bit and blusters a bit more*


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 17, 2016)

I did read in I think it was The Sunday Times that the German foreign minster was a bit tired of his 'lovable buffoon' schtick.  But then again I suppose the Germans won't be overly impressed with him after his role in brexit.  And probably just think he is a buffoon.


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## Crazyface (Nov 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't - I am only quoting what he says.  Agree or Disagree with what he says if you want.  My OP was about his careless use of language and how he expresses his ideas through silliness - of which he has discovered folks in the UK have found funny and endearing - but in his position as FS paints him as an idiot, rude and buffoon.

Anyway - sod it - close it.
		
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How dare you! This is what the people who voted out think (what Boris said), so he's sticking to his guns and still saying what we want him to say. Good for him. And the Proseco thing is true. Italy are selling shed load of the stuff to us over here as it is now THE goto drink of the Ladies (a la Pub Landlord voice). Sure we sell a few fish over there, but nowhere near as much as the booze the Italians are shipping over. So if they want to keep on selling it to us, they'd better play ball.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			How dare you! This is what the people who voted out think (what Boris said), so he's sticking to his guns and still saying what we want him to say. Good for him. And the Proseco thing is true. Italy are selling shed load of the stuff to us over here as it is now THE goto drink of the Ladies (a la Pub Landlord voice). Sure we sell a few fish over there, but nowhere near as much as the booze the Italians are shipping over. So if they want to keep on selling it to us, they'd better play ball.
		
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yeh right


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## Crazyface (Nov 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yeh right
		
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But it sounds good. Don't you get it? Just re-run DT's campaign clips and check the results.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			How dare you! This is what the people who voted out think (what Boris said), so he's sticking to his guns and still saying what we want him to say. Good for him. And the Proseco thing is true. Italy are selling shed load of the stuff to us over here as it is now THE goto drink of the Ladies (a la Pub Landlord voice). Sure we sell a few fish over there, but nowhere near as much as the booze the Italians are shipping over. So if they want to keep on selling it to us, they'd better play ball.
		
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I see the 27 countries to one reply has been missed out.

Johnson is an embarrassing fool. 
He may have got away with it in some parts of the UK but the rWorld is not so stupid.


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## Val (Nov 19, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			How dare you! This is what the people who voted out think (what Boris said), so he's sticking to his guns and still saying what we want him to say. Good for him. And the Proseco thing is true. Italy are selling shed load of the stuff to us over here as it is now THE goto drink of the Ladies (a la Pub Landlord voice). Sure we sell a few fish over there, but nowhere near as much as the booze the Italians are shipping over. So if they want to keep on selling it to us, they'd better play ball.
		
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And there you have it, that's why the EU need to play ball. The sad thing is, many believe this to be true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2016)

Val said:



			And there you have it, that's why the EU need to play ball. The sad thing is, many believe this to be true.
		
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Like the rest of the rubbish and lies spouted by Bojo they believed about the benefits and impact of leaving.  But there you go - it's what the people -  yes 17.4million of them - wanted.  Though it seems to be completely forgotten that 16.1 million voted to stay.  And that's a lot of folks whose wishes are being completely ignored or dismissed as irrelevant.

I reckon TM is just waiting until BoJo has embarrassed her and the UK sufficiently that she can get shot of him.  Just imagine that we were a Gove's breath away from having BoJo as PM and Andrea Loathsome as Chancellor.  God help us.  And it would have been what '_the people_' voted for.  And we get berated if we even suggest that some leavers were a bit misguided in their decision-making and views.  Ah well.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like the rest of the rubbish and lies spouted by Bojo they believed about the benefits and impact of leaving.  But there you go - it's what the people -  yes 17.4million of them - wanted.  Though it seems to be completely forgotten that 16.1 million voted to stay.  And that's a lot of folks whose wishes are being completely ignored or dismissed as irrelevant.

I reckon TM is just waiting until BoJo has embarrassed her and the UK sufficiently that she can get shot of him.  Just imagine that we were a Gove's breath away from having BoJo as PM and Andrea Loathsome as Chancellor.  God help us.  And it would have been what '_the people_' voted for.  And we get berated if we even suggest that some leavers were a bit misguided in their decision-making and views.  Ah well.
		
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Us 16.1 million lost a yes/no vote, not a proportional vote. Why can't the winners ignore us? I just don't get this Brexit-lite that so many want. And what sort of stance will the rest of the EU take if the UK go into the negotiations all cuddly and soft? Declare Article 50 and get stuck into negotiating. As we've heard from the German Finance Minister this week, they want the UK's contributions up till 2030. They're desperate for the UK to be in or still contributing = the U.K. are in a reasonable position to negotiate a decent exit.

As for TM just waiting on BoJo embarrassing her... she didn't have to give him a cabinet post. Your point on this just smacks of paranoia and conspiracy.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2016)

Do we have to restrict this thread to just the stupid things that Boris Johnson has said or can we bring in things from other politicians as well? 

Such as this maybe from August 2014........

"Shetland is on the cusp of another oil boom" - Nicola Sturgeon. 

Well that was a mighty fine prediction there.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 19, 2016)

Wiff waff I say


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do we have to restrict this thread to just the stupid things that Boris Johnson has said or can we bring in things from other politicians as well? 

Such as this maybe from August 2014........

"Shetland is on the cusp of another oil boom" - Nicola Sturgeon. 

Well that was a mighty fine prediction there.
		
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Don't know why you are bothering yourself about a politician from a different country.  She's not even a Westminster MP.  She's the leader of a Scottish party and FM of Scotland.  And what she predicts about Scotland's future economy is frankly really none of your business - so I wouldn't let her utterances worry you  - you should have enough to concern yourself with with the dysfunctional mob in charge in Westminster and the shambles that is Brexit.

So fret ye not about NS - you can let the Scottish electorate do that.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We 16.1million can be ignored - as we currently are - but what way is that to reach anything nearing a consensus or reconciliation that is surely required.  For the current way that the 16.1m are being ignored will just leave resentments and anger festering.  And if Brexit doesn't go well, the 16.1million will be furious.  

Brilliant way for Theresa Might to be a 'one nation' Prime Minister.  If she wants to be one then her government best start listening to the 16.1million.
		
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The losers, providing there's a decent majority, are ignored after every GE. What's different? And please don't split semantics about it a decision that affects generations, not just 5 years. The time span isn't relevant, the deals are.


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## hors limite (Nov 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			The losers, providing there's a decent majority, are ignored after every GE. What's different? And please don't split semantics about it a decision that affects generations, not just 5 years. The time span isn't relevant, the deals are.
		
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I don't see how you can compare the referendum with a GE. Whatever government is elected is expected to make every effort to do its best for all of the people and not just those who voted it in.
The referendum was a shambles and I won't weary everyone with a repetition of all the lies and distortions. What we have now is a decision which is not going to deliver a positive result for the majority. Job losses and inflation are a certainty. The remainers and, I suspect, a lot of leavers can see this.Why on earth this significant proportion of the population should sit on their hands, I do not understand.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I don't see how you can compare the referendum with a GE. Whatever government is elected is expected to make every effort to do its best for all of the people and not just those who voted it in.
The referendum was a shambles and I won't weary everyone with a repetition of all the lies and distortions. What we have now is a decision which is not going to deliver a positive result for the majority. Job losses and inflation are a certainty. The remainers and, I suspect, a lot of leavers can see this.Why on earth this significant proportion of the population should sit on their hands, I do not understand.
		
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Unless I'm much mistaken I did compare it to a GE. Having experienced countless years of seeing the northeast of England ignored by successive governments I guess firsthand experience trumps your naivety.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I don't see how you can compare the referendum with a GE. Whatever government is elected is expected to make every effort to do its best for all of the people and not just those who voted it in.
The referendum was a shambles and I won't weary everyone with a repetition of all the lies and distortions. What we have now is a decision which is not going to deliver a positive result for the majority. *Job losses and inflation are a certainty.* The remainers and, I suspect, a lot of leavers can see this.Why on earth this significant proportion of the population should sit on their hands, I do not understand.
		
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Perhaps you could explain exactly where these jobs will be lost as they are such a certainty?


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## MegaSteve (Nov 19, 2016)

I don't believe I am aware of anyone who voted for Brexit based on the utterings of BoJo [or Farage for that matter]... Nearly everyone, I know, had made their minds, on which way to vote, long before the guff started... Spoken by both sides in the run up to the vote I might add...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 19, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



*I don't believe I am aware of anyone who voted for Brexit based on the utterings of BoJo [or Farage for that matter]*... Nearly everyone, I know, had made their minds, on which way to vote, long before the guff started... Spoken by both sides in the run up to the vote I might add...
		
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Really?  I would have said that, like them or not, they were both very key voices in influencing people to vote for Brexit.  Even I as someone firmly on the 'not' side, would admit they did it very well.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really?  I would have said that, like them or not, they were both very key voices in influencing people to vote for Brexit.  Even I as someone firmly on the 'not' side, would admit they did it very well.
		
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You are overlooking that, down here, we had suffered BoJo [as our Mayor] long enough to know he's not to be taken too seriously... And, as I said previously, folk had long made their minds up on their voting preferences... Can't think of many [any in fact] that changed sides during the campaign... I feel you may well have too higher opinion of the nasty boys...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps you could explain exactly where these jobs will be lost as they are such a certainty?
		
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Well for starters there is the UK Armed Forces and all those employed within the EU.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well for starters there is the UK Armed Forces and all those employed within the EU.
		
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So why will the Armed Forces jobs be lost?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know why you are bothering yourself about a politician from a different country.  She's not even a Westminster MP.  She's the leader of a Scottish party and FM of Scotland.  And what she predicts about *Scotland's future economy is frankly really none of your business* - so I wouldn't let her utterances worry you  - you should have enough to concern yourself with with the dysfunctional mob in charge in Westminster and the shambles that is Brexit.

So fret ye not about NS - you can let the Scottish electorate do that.
		
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Did I miss IndyRef2 in Scotland where they voted to leave the UK. I must have slept through that as I was convinced that Scotland was very much still a part of the UK and as such the economy of Scotland is still linked to that of the rest of the UK. So how is it none of my business if their leader is spending like a drunken sailor on a night out subsidised by the rest of the UK? Unless and until Scotland votes to leave the UK then what that poisonous little cow says, thinks and does is very much my concern, and that of every other UK citizen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			So why will the Armed Forces jobs be lost?
		
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Budget cuts.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Budget cuts.
		
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There's been budget cuts for as long as I can remember. Weak, weak argument as usual.

And I guess you're helping the chancellor write the budgets, or are you making assumptions?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really?  I would have said that, like them or not, they were both very key voices in influencing people to vote for Brexit.  Even I as someone firmly on the 'not' side, would admit they did it very well.
		
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I assume by this you are basing it (again) on the view that most people (especially Leavers) are stupid.  I think that people from both sides of the argument were astute enough to see through any key voices that were 'gilding the Lilly' and those key voices were very much at large in both camps.  Even you must admit that.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 19, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			You are overlooking that, down here, we had suffered BoJo [as our Mayor] long enough to know he's not to be taken too seriously... And, as I said previously, folk had long made their minds up on their voting preferences...* Can't think of many [any in fact] that changed sides during the campaign*... I feel you may well have too higher opinion of the nasty boys...
		
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I'm not talking about changing sides, but with Brexit and indeed the US election, the ability to ensure your core voters were mobilised, engaged and all turned up to vote was key.  And (unfortunately) I feel Bojo and Farage did that very well.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm not talking about changing sides, but with Brexit and indeed the US election, the ability to ensure your core voters were mobilised, engaged and all turned up to vote was key.  And (unfortunately) I feel Bojo and Farage did that very well.
		
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Perhaps we should blame the Remain campaigners for letting us down, for arrogance and, in effect, for stupidity. Thank goodness they didn't win. Imagine being governed by idiots like them.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*I assume by this you are basing it (again) on the view that most people (especially Leavers) are stupid.*  I think that people from both sides of the argument were astute enough to see through any key voices that were 'gilding the Lilly' and those key voices were very much at large in both camps.  Even you must admit that.
		
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What makes you assume that? Did Hacker ever actually state that that was his (or her!) belief?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			What makes you assume that? Did Hacker ever actually state that that was his (or her!) belief?
		
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The suggestion that people voted Leave due to the influence of people like Boris.


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## hors limite (Nov 20, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps you could explain exactly where these jobs will be lost as they are such a certainty?
		
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The EU can't let the UK pick the trade opportunities it wants to preserve and discard the things it doesn't want like freedom of movement. Otherwise, every other country would want to do the same. That being the case, I don't believe that the UK will have the same free access to EU markets and this will inevitably lead to a loss of jobs. Virtually every UK  business organisation is expressing exactly these same fears.


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## hors limite (Nov 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Unless I'm much mistaken I did compare it to a GE. Having experienced countless years of seeing the northeast of England ignored by successive governments I guess firsthand experience trumps your naivety.
		
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I think that this is a completely different issue. You might want to ask yourself why the same neglected voters in the North East who voted so enthusiastically for Brexit re- elected a certain Tony Blair.A much better example of naivety?


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I think that this is a completely different issue. You might want to ask yourself why the same neglected voters in the North East who voted so enthusiastically for Brexit re- elected a certain Tony Blair.A much better example of naivety?
		
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Why would I want to ask myself something I already know? You could pin a red rosette on a donkey in the northeast and it would be elected. People vote for a party, not necessarily an individual.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			What makes you assume that? Did Hacker ever actually state that that was his (or her!) belief?
		
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He assumes that because it fits his narrative that all remainers assume all leavers are stupid. Which as you correctly point out I did not say anything of the sort. I was saying they mounted an effective campaign and mobilised the core voters.  As did Trump.  They played a good hand and did what they needed to do to win the election. I found it unfortunate as I did not agree with the thrust of their campaigns.

It is hard work sometimes when people want to read the same old thing into whatever someone types, no matter what it is.   You even praise their side for running an effective campaign and they still see some malice in it.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps we should blame the Remain campaigners for letting us down, for arrogance and, in effect, for stupidity. Thank goodness they didn't win. Imagine being governed by idiots like them.
		
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I didn't mention anything about blame, was just saying they ran an effective campaign to when it comes to winning the elections/referendums.  And yes there was some complacency on the opposing sides on both sides of the pond that did not help their campaign in any way.  Personally I would not say that would mean they are unfit to govern, but it was a factor which I hope they will learn from.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			He assumes that because it fits his narrative that all remainers assume all leavers are stupid. Which as you correctly point out I did not say anything of the sort. I was saying they mounted an effective campaign and mobilised the core voters.  As did Trump.  They played a good hand and did what they needed to do to win the election. I found it unfortunate as I did not agree with the thrust of their campaigns.
		
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But, the referendum wasn't an election or was it?  As others, far cleverer than I, are still discussing/arguing what the vote actually was or meant to be I'll leave it to them...

Still reckon/believe we'll still be in rather than out come 2020... And, assuming there's not an earlier GE that'll be an interesting year...


As for Trump, don't think he was that good just Hilary created/caused great 'concern' about her possible direction of governance...


As soon as a political party cottons on they need to build homes ahead of railways/runways they'll be onto a winner...

As per Barack.. Business has had its share, now time for the people to get some payback...


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The suggestion that people voted Leave due to the influence of people like Boris.
		
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So that would mean that it's actually that YOU are saying those people are stupid!

Can you explain to me what you think the purpose of campaigning is, if not to influence the way people vote? Boris is no different to any campaigner in that regard!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



*But, the referendum wasn't an election or was it?*  As others, far cleverer than I, are still discussing/arguing what the vote actually was or meant to be I'll leave it to them...

Still reckon/believe we'll still be in rather than out come 2020... And, assuming there's not an earlier GE that'll be an interesting year...


As for Trump, don't think he was that good just Hilary created/caused great 'concern' about her possible direction of governance...


As soon as a political party cottons on they need to build homes ahead of railways/runways they'll be onto a winner...

As per Barack.. Business has had its share, now time for the people to get some payback...
		
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No it wasn't. I was referring to both Brexit and Trump so I really should have said referendum/election.  I was talking about the way they both very successfully appealed to their core voters and ensured that they voted.

As for building homes instead of railways then there is an argument that since Mrs Thatch, homes are built mostly by the private sector. But massive infrastructure projects like runways and HS2 have to be led by the government.  So a government promising to build lots of homes is mostly setting themselves up for a fall.  All they can really do is try and influence the conditions and regulations to encourage the private sector to build more.  And that is not really a sexy election pledge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Did I miss IndyRef2 in Scotland where they voted to leave the UK. I must have slept through that as I was convinced that Scotland was very much still a part of the UK and as such the economy of Scotland is still linked to that of the rest of the UK. So how is it none of my business if their leader is spending like a drunken sailor on a night out subsidised by the rest of the UK? Unless and until Scotland votes to leave the UK t*hen what that poisonous little cow says,* thinks and does is very much my concern, and that of every other UK citizen.
		
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You are a nice person - that's just the sort of tripe that Scots come to expect from *the English* and that just reinforces and strengthens the negative opinion many Scots have of the English - *all of them.*  Good on you.  Well done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps we should blame the Remain campaigners for letting us down, *for arrogance and, in effect, for stupidity.* Thank goodness they didn't win. Imagine being governed by idiots like them.
		
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Like we are hearing hour by hour by those who voted to Leave.  And those who voted to Leave were quite happy to have BoJo as PM and Andrea Loathsome as Chancellor - yes - arrant stupidity...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2016)

So we are so wrong because we suggest that those who voted Leave are stupid due to...



SocketRocket said:



			The suggestion that people voted Leave due to the influence of people like Boris.
		
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Nice piece of revisionism - this is so deluded and arrogant - and I am sick to the teeth of the dismissive head in the sand rubbish Leavers spout.  And it is because of that attitude that I am not going to shut up.  Got forbid that we leave on your terms - whatever these are. Because all I know is that we have voted to go to a land of milk and honey that has a fabled city of gold across the sea that BoJo told us about and Leave voters gullibly bought into.  How we get there and what we will actually find nobody actually knows,  But hey - let's just jump off the cliff and start swimming and see what happens.  It's nonsense - it's frankly stupid.

Until I hear some form of recognition and acceptance from Leavers that 16.1milllion people have serious issues and concerns that the government MUST take into account I'll not shut up and meanwhilw I shall continue to push and question and I will *rejoice *in every little issue that is thrown in the way of the government trying to fast track their way out of the EU.  It is not what I want to do or how I want to act - but the arrogance of Leave is pushing me there.

Completed peed off rant over.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			As for building homes instead of railways then there is an argument that since Mrs Thatch, homes are built mostly by the private sector. But massive infrastructure projects like runways and HS2 have to be led by the government.  So a government promising to build lots of homes is mostly setting themselves up for a fall.  All they can really do is try and influence the conditions and regulations to encourage the private sector to build more.  And that is not really a sexy election pledge.
		
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Perhaps we need a government ready to turn the clocks back and be actively involved in house building... Â£55Bn would go a long way to resolving the nationwide housing problems... Plenty of ministry land up for sale over the next decade or so... So they have the land to make a start... 

Apologies to OP gone way off topic now..


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## ger147 (Nov 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So we are so wrong because we suggest that those who voted Leave are stupid due to...



Nice piece of revisionism - this is so deluded and arrogant - and I am sick to the teeth of the dismissive head in the sand rubbish Leavers spout.  And it is because of that attitude that I am not going to shut up.  Got forbid that we leave on your terms - whatever these are. Because all I know is that we have voted to go to a land of milk and honey that has a fabled city of gold across the sea that BoJo told us about and Leave voters gullibly bought into.  How we get there and what we will actually find nobody actually knows,  But hey - let's just jump off the cliff and start swimming and see what happens.  It's nonsense - it's frankly stupid.

Until I hear some form of recognition and acceptance from Leavers that 16.1milllion people have serious issues and concerns that the government MUST take into account I'll not shut up and meanwhilw I shall continue to push and question and I will *rejoice *in every little issue that is thrown in the way of the government trying to fast track their way out of the EU.  It is not what I want to do or how I want to act - but the arrogance of Leave is pushing me there.

Completed peed off rant over.
		
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I asked you in the Article 50 thread but you seem to have missed it, so will ask you again here.

What type of EU leaving would the government have had to comtemplate if the vote had gone the other way i.e. if Stay had one but over 16 million had voted to Leave?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are a nice person - that's just the sort of tripe that Scots come to expect from *the English* and that just reinforces and strengthens the negative opinion many Scots have of the English - *all of them.*  Good on you.  Well done.
		
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Why is it tripe? Just because I don't agree with your opinion of her? You get annoyed by a criticism of your beloved Wee Jimmy Krankie but are happy to throw your own insults around - such as Andrea Loathsome etc, does that make you not a "nice person". Grow up.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are a nice person - that's just the sort of tripe that Scots come to expect from *the English* and that just reinforces and strengthens the negative opinion many Scots have of the English - *all of them.*  Good on you.  Well done.
		
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And yet you think it's ok to say Theresa May-witch and Angela Loathsome. I wonder how you are perceived? Judge unto others...?

Would someone of high Christian values label people as you do?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 20, 2016)

hors limite said:



			The EU can't let the UK pick the trade opportunities it wants to preserve and discard the things it doesn't want like freedom of movement. Otherwise, every other country would want to do the same. That being the case, I don't believe that the UK will have the same free access to EU markets and this will inevitably lead to a loss of jobs. Virtually every UK  business organisation is expressing exactly these same fears.
		
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So not actually a certainty at all; just the fears of those who would have preferred Remain to win, looking to blame the Leave side for something that hasn't happened and may yet not happen.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps we need a government ready to turn the clocks back and be actively involved in house building... Â£55Bn would go a long way to resolving the nationwide housing problems... Plenty of ministry land up for sale over the next decade or so... So they have the land to make a start... 

Apologies to OP gone way off topic now..
		
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I agree about the waste of money.  I'm a chair of governors at a school and know just how much schools are struggling now.  Teachers will be made redundant, class sizes will rise and that will have an impact on the quality of education. And the money we will spend on Brexit could be put to vastly more useful purposes to make the UK great again IMHO.  

If you want British jobs for British people then spend it on educating British kids, to me that will do far more to ensure we as a nation can be more self sufficient than any tightening of immigration policies ever will.  Invest in the future education of the kids so they can compete in the global market we now operate in, or houses, or the NHS, not tying up government for many years to come and paying lawyers vast amounts of money to get us out of the current trade agreements and then draw up new ones.  

But as you say, off topic now.  But I did see in the Times today that apparently the German foreign minister can't stand to be in the same room as BoJo now.  Which is nice.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Did I miss IndyRef2 in Scotland where they voted to leave the UK. I must have slept through that as I was convinced that Scotland was very much still a part of the UK and as such the economy of Scotland is still linked to that of the rest of the UK. So how is it none of my business if their leader is spending like a drunken sailor on a night out subsidised by the rest of the UK? Unless and until Scotland votes to leave the UK then what that poisonous little cow says, thinks and does is very much my concern, and that of every other UK citizen.
		
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Perhaps rather than lowering yourself to childish name calling you could give the rest of us some information on the level of Scottish 'overspending'.  [On the agreed block grant.]


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps rather than lowering yourself to childish name calling you could give the rest of us some information on the level of Scottish 'overspending'.  [On the agreed block grant.]
		
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I wonder how many times its been suggested to you that you read the GERS report? You've had the numbers more times than mystic Meg but you just won't accept them.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps rather than *lowering yourself to childish name calling* you could give the rest of us some information on the level of Scottish 'overspending'.  [On the agreed block grant.]
		
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Pot and Kettle spring to mind with the bit in bold after some of your posts about Westminster politicians you don't like.

The latest figures I can find are 2015 budget deficit of Â£14.3 billion, or 9.1% of GDP (taken from the GERS figures).

I never said they were "overspending", that was your word. But unless you feel that running up a deficit of over Â£14 billion isn't overspending then I'm happy to go with your choice of word.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			But I did see in the Times today that apparently the German foreign minister can't stand to be in the same room as BoJo now.  Which is nice.
		
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Assuming its still Herr Steinmeir [Sp?] then I wouldn't wish to be in the same room as him... As I consider him to be another anti-worker member of the political classes...

Hey ho... Bring on the revolution... Then I can introduce the lot of 'em to madame guillotine...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			So that would mean that it's actually that YOU are saying those people are stupid!

Can you explain to me what you think the purpose of campaigning is, if not to influence the way people vote? Boris is no different to any campaigner in that regard!
		
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I didn't suggest that did I?   I answered the question on why I thought he was suggesting people were stupid that were swayed by the likes of Boris.  My point is they are generally cleverer than to be swayed.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			He assumes that because it fits his narrative that all remainers assume all leavers are stupid. Which as you correctly point out I did not say anything of the sort. I was saying they mounted an effective campaign and mobilised the core voters.  As did Trump.  They played a good hand and did what they needed to do to win the election. I found it unfortunate as I did not agree with the thrust of their campaigns.

It is hard work sometimes when people want to read the same old thing into whatever someone types, no matter what it is.   You even praise their side for running an effective campaign and they still see some malice in it.
		
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I never said *"all remainers assume all leavers are stupid."  *but I guess it fits your narrative to suggest I did.  

I suggested that's what you have been posting but you are not 'all remainers' are you, some who voted 'remain' on here have taken a very practical view of the situation and have decided to move on from it but alas  there are a few like yourself that can do nothing but talk down the future and accept that your views never won the day.

Stop talking the country down will you or you may just get what you wish for.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

ger147 said:



			I asked you in the Article 50 thread but you seem to have missed it, so will ask you again here.

What type of *EU leaving* would the government have had to comtemplate if the vote had gone the other way i.e. if *Stay had won* but over 16 million had voted to Leave?
		
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None at all! as Stay would have been the result!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't suggest that did I?   I answered the question on why I thought he was suggesting people were stupid that were swayed by the likes of Boris.  My point is they are generally cleverer than to be swayed.
		
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But HE didn't suggest that they were stupid! It was YOU that mentioned that word/condition!

You still haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2016)

Absolutely right, if the result had been reversed and Remain had won there would have been no concessions to the millions that voted Leave. But SiLH keeps saying that the wishes of the millions that voted to Remain must be taken into consideration in the negotiations, whether that is by continued access to the Single Market or Freedom of Movement or whatever else it might be. Not sure that he would have been so keen to see the same done if the result had gone the other way.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			But HE didn't suggest that they were stupid! It was YOU that suggested they might be!

You still haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!
		
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You are twisting my words in your normal way to promote your ongoing puerile policy of stalking me.  I don't wish to discuss anything with you oddball.   Just do one!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely right, if the result had been reversed and Remain had won there would have been no concessions to the millions that voted Leave. But SiLH keeps saying that the wishes of the millions that voted to Remain must be taken into consideration in the negotiations, whether that is by continued access to the Single Market or Freedom of Movement or whatever else it might be. Not sure that he would have been so keen to see the same done if the result had gone the other way.
		
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That was also the policy (or at least the 'Sales Patter!) of the Leave Campaign! To leave the 'restrictions' of the EU, but retain the benefits - of Free Trade in particular!


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## ger147 (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			None at all! as Stay would have been the result!
		
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The question was specifically for silh as he has been consistently suggesting there should be some sort of compromise even tho' Remain lost as 16 million voted to Remain.

I wanted to know if he thought the same would apply had the result been reversed.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You are twisting my words in your normal way to promote your ongoing puerile policy of stalking me.  I don't wish to discuss anything with you oddball.   Just do one!
		
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Nope! I'm just asking you to actually explain why you claimed Hacker considered Leavers 'stupid', when he stated nothing of the sort!

And you STILL haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Nope! I'm just asking you to actually explain why you claimed Hacker considered Leavers 'stupid', when he stated nothing of the sort!

And you STILL haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!
		
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I explained that.  Now Do One!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			...
And you STILL haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I explained that.  Now Do One!
		
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Er...Where did you do that?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Nope! I'm just asking you to actually explain why you claimed Hacker considered Leavers 'stupid', when he stated nothing of the sort!

And you STILL haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I explained that.  Now Do One!
		
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Foxy n Socket

Can you take it outside into the car park and sort it out

come back when your blood pressure tablets have kicked in
Cheers


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely right, if the result had been reversed and Remain had won there would have been no concessions to the millions that voted Leave. But SiLH keeps saying that the wishes of the millions that voted to Remain must be taken into consideration in the negotiations, whether that is by continued access to the Single Market or Freedom of Movement or whatever else it might be. Not sure that he would have been so keen to see the same done if the result had gone the other way.
		
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Our entire dysfunctional relationship with the EU has been blighted by one concession to "leavers" or "eurosceptics" after another. No doubt that approach would have continued had we voted to stay in.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Foxy n Socket

*Can you take it outside into the car park and sort it out
*
come back when your blood pressure tablets have kicked in
Cheers
		
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Such a pugilistic Mod! 

No blood pressure problems for me btw!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Our entire dysfunctional relationship with the EU has been blighted by one concession to "leavers" or "eurosceptics" after another. No doubt that approach would have continued had we voted to stay in.
		
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And so it should if the percentage in/out was reversed! IMO of course!

While there are many excellent things about being in the EU, there were/are a significant number of disadvantages caused by membership as well! I don't consider the 'supremacy' of the ECJ as one of them though!

I'm certainly always been a 'Eurosceptic'!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Nope! *I'm just asking you to actually explain why you claimed Hacker considered Leavers 'stupid', when he stated nothing of the sort!*

And you STILL haven't answered the question about one of the major points of campaigning - to get the (apparently, in your opinion, stupid) undecided to vote your way!
		
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Can I rescind my original statement and say that some leavers are stupid if some of this thread is anything to go by.  As I think that will make it easier for all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2016)

And so to Boris in Blunderland...

_UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has been accused of being "provocative" and "arrogant" after telling Turkey he supports its bid to join the EU._

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38065856


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## ger147 (Nov 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so to Boris in Blunderland...

_UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has been accused of being "provocative" and "arrogant" after telling Turkey he supports its bid to join the EU._

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38065856

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Now that you're back on this thread, any chance of answering the question I asked above?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Now that you're back on this thread, any chance of answering the question I asked above?
		
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Cameron achieved some concessions for those inclined to _Leave_ - they were rejected.


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## ger147 (Nov 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cameron achieved some concessions for those inclined to _Leave_ - they were rejected.
		
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That is not an answer to the question I asked so I can only assume from your non-answer that you don't intend to answer as it undermines your position on compromising after Leave won so I will leave it there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2016)

ger147 said:



			That is not an answer to the question I asked so I can only assume from your non-answer that you don't intend to answer as it undermines your position on compromising after Leave won so I will leave it there.
		
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Sorry Gerry - I'll go back and find question - I thought you asked about compromise.  And I thought that that was effectively what Cameron achieved.  I would have thought there would have to have been, as a minimum, some attempt to change policy in respect of immigration - but as changes to freedom of movement could be very difficult to achieve unilaterally - then some form of limiting benefits for a period and maybe also 'free at point of use' NHS for the employed immigrant for some defined short period - maybe 4yrs.  

Not what I'd necessarily want but recognition of concerns of the others and some move to mitigate their issues and allay their fears would be essential.  I'd have wanted a 'victorious' _Remain _to show humility in victory, and understanding and compassion towards the 'defeated'.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cameron achieved some concessions for those inclined to _Leave_ - they were rejected.
		
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So what rock solid concessions did Cameron actually achieve?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			So what rock solid concessions did Cameron actually achieve?
		
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I believe the answer is pretty much nothing of worth , prob a bit nail in the coffin


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			So what rock solid concessions did Cameron actually achieve?
		
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We might never know.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cameron achieved some concessions for those inclined to _Leave_ - they were rejected.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			So what rock solid concessions did Cameron actually achieve?
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We might never know.
		
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Well, make your mind up, did he achieve some rock solid concessions or not?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 24, 2016)

I find it mildly amusing that the three pompous brexiters witter on about the importance of keeping negotiations secret whilst the EU people they are trying to negotiate with go straight to a press briefing on what they were discussing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well, make your mind up, did he achieve some rock solid concessions or not?
		
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We don't know - and we will never know unless they are resurrected in such as a soft-Brexit negotiation - then we might.  The _Leave_ campaign claimed the were hard as marshmallow - but they would claim that - and that claim was bought by many.


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We don't know - and we will never know unless they are resurrected in such as a soft-Brexit negotiation - then we might.  The _Leave_ campaign claimed the were hard as marshmallow - but they would claim that - and that claim was bought by many.
		
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Whilst there are plenty of examples of what he got, e.g. The Telegraph 20th Feb this year, many of which appear to be excellent concessions, none of them were binding until ratified by the EU parliament. They weren't scheduled to go before the EU parliament unless there was a vote to stay in.

They were agreed in principle only.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2016)

And, whoever dug up John Major can they please put him back into the obscurity where he belongs...

"Tyranny of the majority"... My backside... 


And yes, I do know this is a phrase that's been used before... 
By folk, for when democracy doesn't pan out the way they hoped/expected...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			And, whoever dug up John Major can they please put him back into the obscurity where he belongs...

"Tyranny of the majority"... My backside... 


And yes, I do know this is a phrase that's been used before... 
By folk, for when democracy doesn't pan out the way they hoped/expected...
		
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He makes a very valid point and speaks the truth.  Rock on John.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2016)

Words of Wisdom today from our Foreign Secretary that I agree with - and over which Suzanne Evans is currently spluttering over.  And she thinks that Boris is being irresponsible when he is in fact being realistic and compassionate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-10-years-theresa-may-proposal-a7447016.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2017)

So our Foreign Secretary tells the French President that he _"should not administer punishment beatings for anyone trying to escape Europe in the manner of some world war two movie"_

Really Boris?  Very diplomatic and intelligent words from Mr Johnson.  

Wind up the French?  Why not!  Very Helpful.

Your thoughts of 30th November linked to in my previous my here were sensible - these were not.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So our Foreign Secretary tells the French President that he _"should not administer punishment beatings for anyone trying to escape Europe in the manner of some world war two movie"_

Really Boris?  Very diplomatic and intelligent words from Mr Johnson.  

Wind up the French?  Why not!  Very Helpful.

Your thoughts of 30th November linked to in my previous my here were sensible - these were not.
		
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I think his analogy was quite good but there will always be people looking to be upset by what he says.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2017)

Well Boris - seems like the US SoS Tillerson doesn't want you about when he's speaking with Vlad - probably doesn't want you using silly language or saying something inappropriate or conflicting with US policy.

That said - given how silent Tillerson has been on matters since he was appointed - and the globe-trotting role that Kushner has - I'm not sure that Tillerson has much idea what to say to Vlad either - especially when just a week or so ago Tillerson said that 'sorting out Assad was for the Syrian people' - giving Assad the green light to use chemical weapons against Syrians.

Never mind Boris - I'm sure you'll develop into a heavyweight UK Foreign Secretary in time - a very long time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

I see Boris is ranked at around -56% in the latest Ashcroft leadership confidence polls
Just one point above Paul Nuttall :rofl: and a handful behind Trump.
Looks like Boris has finally found his true level.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2017)

...oh Boris - seems like you are currently being pretty much ignored by the rest of the G7 Foreign Ministers.  No matter - we think that you are such a happy chappie and up for jolly japes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2017)

The words of wisdom from our FS?  Silence...


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## ger147 (Apr 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The words of wisdom from our FS?  Silence...
		
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Speaking of silence, there's some folk looking for you on the Kelvin MacKenzie thread...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Speaking of silence, there's some folk looking for you on the Kelvin MacKenzie thread...
		
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:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The words of wisdom from our FS?  Silence...
		
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You moan when he speaks, and now criticise him when he doesn't. We get it, you don't like the Torys. You're allowed that view point, but maybe only tell us 10% of the time you think it, rather than everytime.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2017)

Is it really a vote winner to refer to the leader of the oppositon as a 'mutton-headed old mugwump'? Only something he could come up with and colourful use of langauge but is it becoming of a senior cabinet minister? 
Doesn't do him or his party any favours imo and you wonder how tight a leash May will keep him on over next few weeks. She's the antithesis of him after all.


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## Scoobiesnax (Apr 27, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Is it really a vote winner to refer to the leader of the oppositon as a 'mutton-headed old mugwump'? Only something he could come up with and colourful use of langauge but is it becoming of a senior cabinet minister? 
Doesn't do him or his party any favours imo and you wonder how tight a leash May will keep him on over next few weeks. She's the antithesis of him after all.
		
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Better than calling him a terrorist sympathizing, anti-British old c***


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## Reemul (Apr 27, 2017)

Wrong topic, dohhh


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2017)

Unbecoming language from the Foreign Secretary.  Does he think it's clever? Does he think it makes him desktop be 'getting down with the boys'?  Frankly for me it is childish and irresponsible - what his counterparts actually think him i wish i knew.  Thoughts were that Fox would be first that May would jettison - our dear FS is trying hard to get to the front of the queue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2017)

I think that was an attempt at a party leadership pitch by Johnson

Scary thought, if Gove had been an honest man of his word, Johnson would be our current PM.

Beam me up Scotty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that was an attempt at a party leadership pitch by Johnson

Scary thought, if Gove had been an honest man of his word, Johnson would be our current PM.

Beam me up Scotty.
		
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...and Andrea Leadsome would be chancellor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2017)

Hearing today that sources close to our FS see dark clouds gathering


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## ger147 (Apr 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing today that sources close to our FS see dark clouds gathering
		
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Boris works in the Met Office now?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

@IanM posted...




			I was in Whitehall today and I can confirm that the Foreign Sec is on a high level mission to Papua New Guinea. Very very important, top secret....... regrettably no wifi or radio connectivity within miles..............either that or he is tied up in the broom cupboard!
		
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Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...-Hell-is-going-on/page191#lpCFf4flaWVtpKSX.99

Ah - the radio silence is broken

well - we this morning discover where our dear FS was yesterday - in a Sikh temple telling a Sikh audience of the delights of alcohol - clink!, clink!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gises-after-discussing-alcohol-in-sikh-temple


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqz6H0Crbm8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUYbxLri_Og


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2017)

No matter what this guy has said and done in the past  - both recent and distant - the majority of Tories want Johnson to be the next PM.  God help us.

We see the mess and conflicts in the US government and the GOP with Trump as PotUS.  Trump's core support - 33% of the electorate - seem to be willing to support him no matter what - what he has said and done in the past (no matter how grotesque) - what he might say and do now and in the future.

And is that the route we are heading? 33% of the electorate adore Boris no matter what - no matter the stink from his past - and the rest of us being at the very best ambivalent.


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## chrisd (Sep 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			the majority of Tories want Johnson to be the next PM.  God help us.

.
		
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You know this for a certain fact?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You know this for a certain fact?
		
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Yup - what was being reported on the news this morning

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...as-favourite-to-succeed-theresa-may-n3fp9z6m8

Ah right.  It's only a poll - so not a _certain fact _- because the only _certain fact_ would be a vote or canvass of every single Conservative Party Member.


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## Hobbit (Sep 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - what was being reported on the news this morning

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...as-favourite-to-succeed-theresa-may-n3fp9z6m8

Ah right.  It's only a poll - so not a _certain fact _- because the only _certain fact_ would be a vote or canvass of every single Conservative Party Member.
		
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So its not 33% of the electorate now, its your projection. And its not the majority of Tories, its only 23%. I wonder how many potential Tory voters will take their vote elsewhere if Boris is leader?


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## chrisd (Sep 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			So its not 33% of the electorate now, its your projection. And its not the majority of Tories, its only 23%. I wonder how many potential Tory voters will take their vote elsewhere if Boris is leader?
		
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This ^^^^


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2017)

chrisd said:



			This ^^^^
		
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This WHAT? For God's Sake.

A poll of Tory Party Members has Boris the strong favourite for next Leader

If you feel you have won a point then on you go - celebrate 

BTW - I hope that many Tories do take their vote elsewhere if Johnson (forget the chummy Boris nonsense) is Tory Party Leader.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 29, 2017)

Hard to imagine the tories electing boris when they know he's so toxic with the wider electorate.

On the other hand...... Corbyn...


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## chrisd (Sep 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This WHAT? For God's Sake.

A poll of Tory Party Members has Boris the strong favourite for next Leader

If you feel you have won a point then on you go - celebrate 

BTW - I hope that many Tories do take their vote elsewhere if Johnson (forget the chummy Boris nonsense) is Tory Party Leader.
		
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23% is NOT a majority of the Tory MP'S  - Oh and with your hundreds of anti Tory posts, anti May and anti Brexit too, are you not constantly trying to win a point?


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## Old Skier (Sep 29, 2017)

chrisd said:



			constantly trying to win a point?
		
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Thats going to take a little time.


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## Hobbit (Sep 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This WHAT? For God's Sake.

A poll of Tory Party Members has Boris the strong favourite for next Leader

If you feel you have won a point then on you go - celebrate 

BTW - I hope that many Tories do take their vote elsewhere if Johnson (forget the chummy Boris nonsense) is Tory Party Leader.
		
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Strong favourite? By that magical number of 4% that you often say would be easy to swing...

Think I'd leave the country if Boris got the job...


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## chrisd (Sep 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Thats going to take a little time.
		
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I don't think I've enough time left in my life &#9786;


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## gmc40 (Sep 30, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hard to imagine the tories electing boris when they know he's so toxic with the wider electorate.

On the other hand...... Corbyn...
		
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The difference being that public perception of Corbyn has been heavily influenced by a biased right wing press.  Johnson on the other hand has earned his reputation without any assistance.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 30, 2017)

Yes, thereâ€™s an element of truth in that but thereâ€™s also plenty about Corbyn to turn voters off.


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## Mudball (Sep 30, 2017)

So Boris fires off another salvo in a different direction as T-May 

Brexit: Boris Johnson urges two-year transition time limit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444 

Insiders say he would have been fired if T-May has a stronger hand. My conspiracy theory is that Boris is baiting the PM TO fire him. That way he will no longer be responsible for the shambolic negotiations (that he is responsible for getting us into in the first place). When everything has crashed and burnt, he will say, â€˜if I had run this, we would have got a better deal yap yap yapâ€™. May is doomed if she fires him and doomed if she keeps him. She is prolonging his pain by keeping him there- which is smart move - rather than get him out on jail by firing him. Boris desperately wants to be fired so he can join the crowds with the pitches and forks outside demanding â€˜better dealâ€™. 

It would all become interesting if she decides to fall on her sword and trigger a leadership battle between Mophead v Rees Mogg v Davis etc. It will be a great theatre to watch. The country and the economy in the meanwhile will start getting dragged down as the clock ticks away to 2019. Would make a good TV series. 

Popcorn...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2017)

Mudball said:



			So Boris fires off another salvo in a different direction as T-May 

Brexit: Boris Johnson urges two-year transition time limit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444 

Insiders say he would have been fired if T-May has a stronger hand. My conspiracy theory is that Boris is baiting the PM TO fire him. That way he will no longer be responsible for the shambolic negotiations (that he is responsible for getting us into in the first place). When everything has crashed and burnt, he will say, â€˜if I had run this, we would have got a better deal yap yap yapâ€™. May is doomed if she fires him and doomed if she keeps him. She is prolonging his pain by keeping him there- which is smart move - rather than get him out on jail by firing him. Boris desperately wants to be fired so he can join the crowds with the pitches and forks outside demanding â€˜better dealâ€™. 

It would all become interesting if she decides to fall on her sword and trigger a leadership battle between Mophead v Rees Mogg v Davis etc. It will be a great theatre to watch. The country and the economy in the meanwhile will start getting dragged down as the clock ticks away to 2019. Would make a good TV series. 

Popcorn...
		
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Oh yes - it would be a hoot seeing and hearing Johnson confronted with his self-serving lies and deceit in the context of a Tory Leader election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2017)

chrisd said:



			23% is NOT a majority of the Tory MP'S  - Oh and with your hundreds of anti Tory posts, anti May and anti Brexit too, are you not constantly trying to win a point?
		
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Don't you just love whatabootery

BTW - I am a bit of a wee Ruthie fan - and so I am not 100% anti-Tory, nor I am anti-Tory just for the sake of it.  I look at the shambles that is the current government; the infighting; the effect of austerity; the mess and uncertainty of Brexit and the Brexit negotiations; who triggered the Brexit referendum and why; and policies such as Â£9k student fees, Universal Credit and the pain UC has caused ordinary working people in the pilot, and housing, NHS etc.

And against that backdrop I hear calls for Rees-Mogg or Johnson to be Prime Minister.  Gies strength


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2017)

Here's a thought; is Boris trying to keep Brexit honest, i.e. the leave EU within the 2 years with no deal if necessary and without paying a penny? Is he backing the will of the people(or some of them) rather than fudging a one foot in, one foot out relationship? Does he have a better chance in a GE than May, with his perverse popularity?

As much as it galls me to say it, he may well be the only popular(credible) candidate for the Tories going into the next GE.


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## chrisd (Oct 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't you just love whatabootery

BTW - I am a bit of a wee Ruthie fan - and so I am not 100% anti-Tory, nor I am anti-Tory just for the sake of it.  I look at the shambles that is the current government; the infighting; the effect of austerity; the mess and uncertainty of Brexit and the Brexit negotiations; who triggered the Brexit referendum and why; and policies such as Â£9k student fees, Universal Credit and the pain UC has caused ordinary working people in the pilot, and housing, NHS etc.

And against that backdrop I hear calls for Rees-Mogg or Johnson to be Prime Minister.  Gies strength
		
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I fully agree that you are entitled to your opinion, but please remember that your opinion is just that!


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## Beezerk (Oct 1, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Think I'd leave the country if Boris got the job...

Click to expand...

Tosser &#128513;


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Tosser &#62977;
		
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Ha - bite me:ears:


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Tosser &#128513;
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			Ha - bite me:ears:
		
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Gents I'm all for banter and the fact that I know that you know each other means that it is just that....banter

However it gives the impression that this sort of language is the norm, it gives a green light to the rest of the forum to start banding out insults, possibly to people they don't know, 

And that is the road to bad places.

So please be aware of what you are posting and how other members would view that post. 

Thank you


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2017)

Hobbit said:



*Here's a thought; is Boris trying to keep Brexit honest*, i.e. the leave EU within the 2 years with no deal if necessary and without paying a penny? Is he backing the will of the people(or some of them) rather than fudging a one foot in, one foot out relationship? Does he have a better chance in a GE than May, with his perverse popularity?

As much as it galls me to say it, he may well be the only popular(credible) candidate for the Tories going into the next GE.
		
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No, he's doing whatever is needed for his quest for power. At least Rees Mogg or god forbid Farrage is pretty consistent with his views and you know where you are with them.

As a non fan of the Tories then actually I'd like to see Bojo as their leader at the next election, playing the pound shop Trump shtick and campaigning on a hard Brexit.  As whilst I am sure he will harden the vote for the hard core brexiters, I am pretty convinced that he will be very unpopular with a lot of people and it will be easier to rally against someone who is after a 'hard brexit'.


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## ger147 (Oct 2, 2017)

Has Boris confirmed if May is unsackable yet?


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2017)

He is an egotistic politician who wants the top job, no different than the majority of those from ALL parties who spout their lies to those gullible enough to listen and not see beyond the rhetoric.  Why do people continue to spit their hate and venom at just one man when there are a further 649 to pick from.

No politician is worth the individual internet time they seem to get.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			He is an egotistic politician who wants the top job, no different than the majority of those from ALL parties who spout their lies to those gullible enough to listen and not see beyond the rhetoric.  Why do people continue to spit their hate and venom at just one man when there are a further 649 to pick from.

No politician is worth the individual internet time they seem to get.
		
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The majority of MPs are nothing like Johnson - but if the Tories want to keep him there, or are too frightened to get rid of him - well tht's their outlook.  Pity he has such a high international profile...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The majority of MPs are nothing like Johnson - but if the Tories want to keep him there, or are too frightened to get rid of him - well tht's their outlook.  Pity he has such a high international profile...
		
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Johnson did not appear to be popular with the QT audience and panel last night.
His one supporter was barely able to string four words together. He kept saying 'He's British'.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			His one supporter was barely able to string four words together. He kept saying 'He's British'.
		
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Cheap shot...

If it was the same fellow, on the screen, as when I got in from work... 
Fairly certain he was saying "He's for Britain"...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Cheap shot...

If it was the same fellow, on the screen, as when I got in from work... 
Fairly certain he was saying "He's for Britain"...
		
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I would imagine all the folk in the room were for Britain/British.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imagine all the folk in the room were for Britain/British.
		
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Except boris, ironically, who is only for boris.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 6, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Except boris, ironically, who is only for boris.
		
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Wins this thread for today...


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## DCB (Oct 6, 2017)

Inappropriate post removed.



Keep it within the rules gents.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 6, 2017)

DCB said:



			Inappropriate post removed.



Keep it within the rules gents.
		
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I have linked to several videos or articles with the occasional rude words in before. I flagged it up so giving grown adults the choice not to watch it if they are offended by rude words. There were no rude words in the actual post. 

Sorry if I offended any grown adults who are offended by rude words. And if you are please do not read the comments section on GM Facebook page either as there are rude words there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2017)

Re Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Nice one Boris, Nice one son...doh!

If we didn't have the PM we have today then whither our Foreign Secretary?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Re Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Nice one Boris, Nice one son...doh!

If we didn't have the PM we have today then whither our Foreign Secretary?
		
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Hommmmmmmm!   Hommmmmmmm! Ding, Ding.     Release all that inner anger, it's unhealthy to compare yourself with others as you will become vain and bitter, there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself.  Get your Yin and Yang back in balance.

Just saying!


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## User62651 (Nov 8, 2017)

When you think of our Foreign Secretaries of the recent past - Hammond, Hague, D.Milliband, Cook, Beckett, Straw, Rifkind, Hurd - they all seemed more fit for purpose in that role - more considered in what they said and with a generally calm statesmanlike demeanor in the role. Not doubting Johnson's got some political abilities but is the Foreign Office, where tact and diplomacy with carefully chose words is king, really the best place for him? Too much of a 'character' with the scruffbag image, off the cuff remarks and always plotting for the top job to be really focussed on the day job I think, just a stepping stone as far as he's concerned. 
Seems like a fairly hefty 'drop the ball' incident re the woman in Iran, Rifkind suggesting he would have been briefed but probably didn't read the brief fully enough which isn't good enough when dealing with something as serious as relations with Iran.
Bit of a liability in the role. Re other ministerial roles he couldn't do chancellor imo but something like Home Secretary or Defence he'd be better suited to? Fallon's leaving would have been a good opportunity to move him there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Hommmmmmmm!   Hommmmmmmm! Ding, Ding.     Release all that inner anger, it's unhealthy to compare yourself with others as you will become vain and bitter, there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself.  Get your Yin and Yang back in balance.

Just saying!
		
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You might have a point - if you actually had a point - and made a comment on the behaviour of our Foreign Secretary and the impotence of our Prime Minister.  

Have you any thoughts on that other than just having a go.  I have no 'inner anger' for these people - I have total indifference and some sympathy for the PM and disdain towards our self-serving 'joke' of a Foreign Secretary - and don't just take that as my view as he is a joke in the eyes of many overseas diplomats and even others in his own party.

And as usually he tries to wriggle out of a situation that he has created by dissembling what he said - when he could have just offered a fulsome apology and said that he got it quite wrong.  But no.  Boris comes first.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 8, 2017)

How many overseas diplomats have you met to know that they share your view of Boris Johnson?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			How many overseas diplomats have you met to know that they share your view of Boris Johnson?
		
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Funnily enough I do not know that many - how many do you know that think he is brilliant.

Have you heard of TV and radio?  You don't need to know someone in person to get a feeling for what they think.  Or is that just all 'Fake News'

Anyway - since you are so keen just to have a go and not contribute anything on the debate about the competency of our Foreign Secretary - what do you think of our Foreign Secretary and this recent mess he's created - and serious issue for the woman involved.  Or can you not comment because you do not know Mr Johnson in person.


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			When you think of our Foreign Secretaries of the recent past - Hammond, Hague, D.Milliband, Cook, Beckett, Straw, Rifkind, Hurd - they all seemed more fit for purpose in that role - more considered in what they said and with a generally calm statesmanlike demeanor in the role. Not doubting Johnson's got some political abilities *but is the Foreign Office, where tact and diplomacy with carefully chose words is king, really the best place for him? Too much of a 'character' with the scruffbag image, off the cuff remarks *and always plotting for the top job to be really focussed on the day job I think, just a stepping stone as far as he's concerned. 
Seems like a fairly hefty 'drop the ball' incident re the woman in Iran, Rifkind suggesting he would have been briefed but probably didn't read the brief fully enough which isn't good enough when dealing with something as serious as relations with Iran.
Bit of a liability in the role. Re other ministerial roles he couldn't do chancellor imo but something like Home Secretary or Defence he'd be better suited to? Fallon's leaving would have been a good opportunity to move him there.
		
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In the Trump world, does the foreign secretary-esq role demand someone to be statesman or are they best to being a scuffbag with off-the-cuff ability


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Funnily enough I do not know that many - how many do you know that think he is brilliant.

Have you heard of TV and radio?  You don't need to know someone in person to get a feeling for what they think.  Or is that just all 'Fake News'

Anyway - since you are so keen just to have a go and not contribute anything on the debate about the competency of our Foreign Secretary - what do you think of our Foreign Secretary and this recent mess he's created - and serious issue for the woman involved.  Or can you not comment because you do not know Mr Johnson in person.
		
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So the answer to how many overseas diplomats you know is none. And you're basing your opinion of what these people think on conjecture and guesswork based I would assume on body language in some short video clips you've seen on the tv. 

As for Boris Johnson, I think he's a complete clown who should never have got the job of foreign Secretary. But your suggestion that he has "created" this mess just shows your prejudice against him. This woman has been in prison for over 18 months (584 days). That's before Johnson even became Foreign Secretary. He certainly hasn't helped the situation but to say he created it is a blatant lie.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



*So the answer to how many overseas diplomats you know is none. And you're basing your opinion of what these people think on conjecture and guesswork based I would assume on body language in some short video clips you've seen on the tv. *

As for Boris Johnson, I think he's a complete clown who should never have got the job of foreign Secretary. But your suggestion that he has "created" this mess just shows your prejudice against him. This woman has been in prison for over 18 months (584 days). That's before Johnson even became Foreign Secretary. He certainly hasn't helped the situation but to say he created it is a blatant lie.
		
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What are you on about? No conjecture and no guesswork on my part whatsoever.  You may choose to ignore every report that News and Foreign Affairs correspondents make on the feedback they receive from overseas diplomats on the Foreign Secretary.  I can only trust that the reporters are not telling complete porkies, and as the views and sources are many and varied I have no reason to suspect they are but other than the truth. Or have you just not heard any such reporting?

And yes - he created this mess - not the original issue - but his own current difficulties are completely of his own making.  He did not have to say what he did to the FA Select Committee.  And he could easily just have apologised straight off for getting it wrong, rather than spin weasel words around how he 'could have been clearer' - words that have got him nowhere other than into the situation he finds himself.

Please - do not call me a liar!


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## User62651 (Nov 8, 2017)

Mudball said:



			In the Trump world, does the foreign secretary-esq role demand someone to be statesman or are they best to being a scuffbag with off-the-cuff ability
		
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Is this a question?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Is this a question?

Click to expand...

In Trump-world the 'foreign secretary' is Rex Tillerson - he is neither statesman nor scuffbag - indeed other than massively successful business I am not sure what he is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 8, 2017)

I looked at the thread title, and thought "..are there any?".....but then 16 pages of more Brexit/Article 50/ similar arguements.
Think I will continue to ignore this and the others once again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I looked at the thread title, and thought "..are there any?".....but then 16 pages of more Brexit/Article 50/ similar arguements.
Think I will continue to ignore this and the others once again

Click to expand...

Aye - we can ignore him if we so choose - pity there are many others far more influential out there in the wider world listening rather carefully to what he says.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2017)

Oh just great- and so the Iranians were listening very closely to what our Foreign Secretary said about out fellow UK citizen in jail in Iran - and they interpret his words as 'an unintended confession' of her guilt...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...fessed-nazanin-zaghariratcliffe-a3686471.html

Resign?  Or is Johnson just too Brexit-special that he can get away with just about anything.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2017)

Your on a rant roll


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2018)

What is our Foreign Secretary doing blustering on in public about Â£100m/week more funding for the NHS?  Does he not recognise that that is the job of the Minister for Health and SC - to have discussed in cabinet?  Does he not realise that this is undermining of Hammond ---- ah!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is our Foreign Secretary doing blustering on in public about Â£100m/week more funding for the NHS?  Does he not recognise that that is the job of the Minister for Health and SC - to have discussed in cabinet?  Does he not realise that this is undermining of Hammond ---- ah!
		
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Interesting that you have chosen to believe the headlines that put Boris in a bad light rather than Laura Kuenssburg who said he didn't mention specific figures or the BBC's assistant political editor Norman Smith who said that "neither Mr Johnson nor any other minister raised a specific figure".

Could it be that you are simply looking for a way to put Boris down due to your personal dislike for him? Or are you guilty of exactly what you claim Boris is doing and simply blustering on in public?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42783247


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting that you have chosen to believe the headlines that put Boris in a bad light rather than Laura Kuenssburg who said he didn't mention specific figures or the BBC's assistant political editor Norman Smith who said that "neither Mr Johnson nor any other minister raised a specific figure".

Could it be that you are simply looking for a way to put Boris down due to your personal dislike for him? Or are you guilty of exactly what you claim Boris is doing and simply blustering on in public?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42783247

Click to expand...

Did you not see Hammonds tv response? So there's absolutely nothing in this story then, Boris yet again voicing views beyond his govt role, all done to weaken May/Hammond and get him closer to No 10? Course not!
How do you think the press even have this 'story'? 
He only went pro Brexit imo to take an opposing stance to Cameron whom he wanted to replace as PM. Don't you recall his face when leave won? Compare that to Farage, a true leaver.  Johnson's politicking is relentless until he is PM, will say and do anything and release 'snippets of info' that he and his backers think will help get him there. Nothing wrong with ambition but at least see it for what it is!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2018)

I haven't seen any TV for the last 4 weeks let alone Hammond's response so can't comment on that. I'm having to rely on printed news and internet for news.

And like you I have no idea how the press have this story but unlike you I am not speculating on it or who released it. You have absolutely no idea whether it was Boris or someone from his side that released the story or whether it was someone from May/Hammond's side doing it to discredit Johnson but it suits your view and dislike of Boris to say that it came from his side. Unless you've got a link that you can provide that shows the leak came from his side?

I don't particularly like Johnson and think it was a terrible decision to make him foreign secretary and it would be even worse were he to become PM. I also don't particularly like people that bend the facts that are known and invent stories to suit their own agenda. And both you and SiLH are guilty of that in this instance, unless you can prove otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I haven't seen any TV for the last 4 weeks let alone Hammond's response so can't comment on that. I'm having to rely on printed news and internet for news.

And like you I have no idea how the press have this story but unlike you I am not speculating on it or who released it. You have absolutely no idea whether it was Boris or someone from his side that released the story or whether it was someone from May/Hammond's side doing it to discredit Johnson but it suits your view and dislike of Boris to say that it came from his side. Unless you've got a link that you can provide that shows the leak came from his side?

I don't particularly like Johnson and think it was a terrible decision to make him foreign secretary and it would be even worse were he to become PM. I also don't particularly like people that bend the facts that are known and invent stories to suit their own agenda. And both you and SiLH are guilty of that in this instance, unless you can prove otherwise.
		
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Sources close to Johnson were openly briefing that he was to request Â£100m/week additional funding for the NHS at the Cabinet meeting.  That we do not know exactly what he said does not take from the fact that we know he was rebuked by the Prime Minister and a 'large number' of Cabinet ministers.  Or is that me just me plucking a juicy titbit of fake news to have a go at the devious, duplicitous and self-serving individual.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 24, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Did you not see Hammonds tv response? So there's absolutely nothing in this story then, Boris yet again voicing views beyond his govt role, all done to weaken May/Hammond and get him closer to No 10? Course not!
How do you think the press even have this 'story'? 
He only went pro Brexit imo to take an opposing stance to Cameron whom he wanted to replace as PM. Don't you recall his face when leave won? Compare that to Farage, a true leaver.  Johnson's politicking is relentless until he is PM, will say and do anything and release 'snippets of info' that he and his backers think will help get him there. Nothing wrong with ambition but at least see it for what it is!
		
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Spot on, anyone who sees Johnson for anything else should just replay that post Brexit result interview.
The very worst type of politician, in it for his ego and could not give a stuff about the public or his party.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sources close to Johnson were openly briefing that he was to request Â£100m/week additional funding for the NHS at the Cabinet meeting.  That we do not know exactly what he said does not take from the fact that we know he was rebuked by the Prime Minister and a 'large number' of Cabinet ministers.  Or is that me just me plucking a juicy titbit of fake news to have a go at the devious, duplicitous and self-serving individual.
		
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So we agree that we don't know what he said, and now you are rowing back from your original claim that Boris was "blustering on in public" about more funding for the NHS? Now it's "sources close to Johnson". The guy is a clown but you do yourself no favours by trying to put your own spin on the facts to try to make him look bad/worse. Why not just post what has happened not what you'd like to have happened?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 24, 2018)

In The Times today it was reported (leaked) he had a severe dressing down in the cabinet meeting yesterday regarding his latest outburst.

To me he is trying to use the current dire funding situation in the NHS to forward his political career and seem to be coming to the rescue of it.  Hurrah for Brexit, as we can now fund the NHS with all the money we saved, 350 million, 100 million, whatever, the amount doesn't matter as long as he gets to number 10.  

A truly loathsome political opportunist of the highest order and to me it is utterly embarrassing that he is our foreign secretary,


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## User62651 (Jan 24, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So we agree that we don't know what he said, and now you are rowing back from your original claim that Boris was "blustering on in public" about more funding for the NHS? Now it's "sources close to Johnson". The guy is a clown but you do yourself no favours by trying to put your own spin on the facts to try to make him look bad/worse. Why not just post what has happened not what you'd like to have happened?
		
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Well it just seemed you were determined to jump on the bandwagon and have a pop at SILH rather than really be concerned if the word 'blustering' was appropriate or not to describe what caused a rebuke from PM/Cabinet to whatever Boris did or didn't say about Â£100m extra for NHS. That's how it came across.
Can we not agree he has said something (as all media right and left have picked it up) to try to court public popularity without consulting PM/Chancellor/Cabinet first? He made a similar move with the article in the Telegraph recently about his vision for Brexit.


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## adam6177 (Jan 24, 2018)

I'm all for the extra funding for the NHS, but I'm surprised that the call is coming from a Tory MP.  After all, we know that the Tories want to run the NHS into the ground to the point that the "ONLY" way out is to privatize it, which is what they've always wanted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So we agree that we don't know what he said, and now you are rowing back from your original claim that Boris was "blustering on in public" about more funding for the NHS? Now it's "sources close to Johnson". The guy is a clown but you do yourself no favours by trying to put your own spin on the facts to try to make him look bad/worse. Why not just post what has happened not what you'd like to have happened?
		
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OK.  So Boris was himself not saying the Â£100m/week directly in public - I think that we all knew that - and I think that you know that I knew that - but if you do not include 'sources close to him' doing the briefing as exactly the same thing as Boris doing the briefing - well - I leave that with you.

And actually you'll maybe have missed part of what the FS as said and that has p'd off May and Hammond - and others in the Cabinet - and the FS himself said this publicly - that not only does he stick with the Â£350m/week brexit dividend - but that it will be *more*.  And here's a link reporting what he said - just in case I haven't got it exactly correct.  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...en-more-than-350m-a-week-to-nhs-a8161316.html

You see it wasn't just what he said about Â£100m/week that he got a dressing down over.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			In The Times today it was reported (leaked) he had a severe dressing down in the cabinet meeting yesterday regarding his latest outburst.

To me he is trying to use the current dire funding situation in the NHS to forward his political career and seem to be coming to the rescue of it.  Hurrah for Brexit, as we can now fund the NHS with all the money we saved, 350 million, 100 million, whatever, the amount doesn't matter as long as he gets to number 10.  

A truly loathsome political opportunist of the highest order and to me it is utterly embarrassing that he is our foreign secretary,
		
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Agree 100%


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I'm all for the extra funding for the NHS, but I'm surprised that the call is coming from a Tory MP.  After all, we know that the Tories want to run the NHS into the ground to the point that the "ONLY" way out is to privatize it, which is what they've always wanted.
		
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What Boris Johnson says in relation to any Brexit Dividend and the NHS generally has little foundation in reality and what might be possible in the future.  It is largely hogwash blustering for his own political ends.  As HK says - he is an embarrassment of a FS.

In any case - the Brexit Dividend that Johnson and Fox talk about becoming available to spend 2020 on - whatever the actual amount is - Â£100m/week, Â£200/week or Â£350m+/week it does not really matter - because the Chancellor - in accordance with the independent forecasting by the OBR - tells us there will be no money available for any such dividend.  

But that doesn't stop Johnson and Fox telling us there will be one.  So are they either misinformed or being deceitful - or maybe they just don't like what they OBR says and so choose to ignore it and invent their own more positive financial future - because it suits their own ends and they can hide behind it.


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## Spear-Chucker (Jan 24, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			In The Times today it was reported (leaked) he had a severe dressing down in the cabinet meeting yesterday regarding his latest outburst.

To me he is trying to use the current dire funding situation in the NHS to forward his political career and seem to be coming to the rescue of it.  Hurrah for Brexit, as we can now fund the NHS with all the money we saved, 350 million, 100 million, whatever, the amount doesn't matter as long as he gets to number 10.  

A truly loathsome political opportunist of the highest order and to me it is utterly embarrassing that he is our foreign secretary,
		
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Subscribed.

An abhorrent individual. I know politicians will always look to further their careers, but I'm sure they used to at least TRY to disguise it with some sensible policy and rhetoric.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 24, 2018)

I am sure if Brexit couldn't have dragged into it now't would have been said...

Me, I am loving every minute of watching the tory boys 'n girls implode...

BJ is the dahling of the blue rinse brigade and therefore untouchable...

And, Ms May knows that full well...


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## Spear-Chucker (Jan 24, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I am sure if Brexit couldn't have dragged into it now't would have been said...

Me, I am loving every minute of watching the tory boys 'n girls implode...

BJ is the dahling of the blue rinse brigade and therefore untouchable...

*And, Ms May knows that full well*...
		
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You're absolutely right, she can't touch him!!! Agreed it's fun to watch, either that or I'd run for the hills


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2018)

Resurrecting this as a result of listening to Boris Johnson answering questions yesterday on a missing Â£46m from the London Garden bridge project

Disgraceful performance - and a performance was all it was.  Full of blaming others, evasion, deceit, diversion and 'forgetfulness'.  And this is the individual that many trotted after into the Referendum polling station.  He should be out on his ear - he is a disgraceful, deceitful, self-serving charlatan and chancer - sullying the great position of state he currently holds.  If only our PM was a bit stronger we might see the back of him - we'd hope forever.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-garden-bridge-plan-that-will-cost-public-46m

I don't hate anyone - but I utterly detest this sort of character.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Resurrecting this as a result of listening to Boris Johnson answering questions yesterday on a missing Â£46m from the London Garden bridge project

Disgraceful performance - and a performance was all it was.  Full of blaming others, evasion, deceit, diversion and 'forgetfulness'.  *And this is the individual that many trotted after into the Referendum polling station.*  He should be out on his ear - he is a disgraceful, deceitful, self-serving charlatan and chancer - sullying the great position of state he currently holds.  If only our PM was a bit stronger we might see the back of him - we'd hope forever.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-garden-bridge-plan-that-will-cost-public-46m

I don't hate anyone - but I utterly detest this sort of character.
		
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You still don't get it... The absolute vast majority had long made up their minds, on their voting intentions, long before any of rhetoric [from either side] started when the referendum was announced...

However, you are spot on with BJs 'failings'...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			You still don't get it... The *absolute vast majority *had long made up their minds, on their voting intentions, long before any of rhetoric [from either side] started when the referendum was announced...

However, you are spot on with BJs 'failings'...
		
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Oh I absolutely *do* get it...the bus...

Though if indeed what you say is true (really - you know *this *for a fact?) then what you have stated is the Number 1 argument for a second referendum - that nobody actually knew what they were voting for but knew what they wanted irrespective of any facts, logic or reasoning.  They are NOT the same thing.  

And by that statement you make me even more convinced that I am on the right side of the argument and determined to do whatever I can to stop this insane decision we have made.  And the words of wisdom from BJ simply fill me with despair as well as derision.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh I absolutely *do* get it...the bus...
		
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You seriously have that little faith, in others, that you truly believe that many based their vote on a dodgy slogan scrawled across a bus...

Honestly


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			You seriously have that little faith, in others, that you truly believe that many based their vote on a dodgy slogan scrawled across a bus...

Honestly 

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Let's remind ourselves of what Dominic Cummings said about the Â£350m for the NHS on the side of the bus.  From his Spectator article

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/

_The demand was to replace the Big Three (Boris, Gisela, Gove) and the core campaign team with Farage, and replace Â£350 million / NHS with â€˜go globalâ€™ trade babble. This didnâ€™t get past the usual weekend boozy chats partly because of Steve Baker telling them he thought it a mad plan. This also shows how volatile the situation was right until the end and how few prominent eurosceptics even then understood that *a) the Â£350 million / NHS argument was necessary to win* and b) their â€˜go globalâ€™ message was a total loser._

I highlighted the Â£350m bit - and he subsequently said that this decision proved to be correct - the Â£350m for NHS was what won the day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			You seriously have that little faith, in others, that you truly believe that many based their vote on a dodgy slogan scrawled across a bus...

Honestly 

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I think more leavers based their vote on the false picture of the queue of 'Immigrants'. [refugees]
Close call between the two though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2018)

The leavers I know based their decision on regaining control of decisions, laws etc. The bus was a side show. Regaining control was the defining issue for them.


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## HughJars (Mar 2, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The leavers I know based their decision on regaining control of decisions, laws etc. The bus was a side show. *Regaining control *was the defining issue for them.
		
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Ridiculous then, when the UK hadn't lost control. A decision based on a fear mongering lie.


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2018)

If we haven't lost control, why is a primary argument of the Remain Campaign, how difficult it is to uncouple ourselves from the EU?


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2018)

I am assuming everyone is on the same page with BJ on his idea that travel between Camden & Islington is the same as travelling across international Irish borders ....


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's remind ourselves of what Dominic Cummings said about the Â£350m for the NHS on the side of the bus.  From his Spectator article

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/

_The demand was to replace the Big Three (Boris, Gisela, Gove) and the core campaign team with Farage, and replace Â£350 million / NHS with â€˜go globalâ€™ trade babble. This didnâ€™t get past the usual weekend boozy chats partly because of Steve Baker telling them he thought it a mad plan. This also shows how volatile the situation was right until the end and how few prominent eurosceptics even then understood that *a) the Â£350 million / NHS argument was necessary to win* and b) their â€˜go globalâ€™ message was a total loser._

I highlighted the Â£350m bit - and he subsequently said that this decision proved to be correct - the Â£350m for NHS was what won the day.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			I think more leavers based their vote on the false picture of the queue of 'Immigrants'. [refugees]
Close call between the two though.
		
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Well, according to Cleggy folk voted to leave because they were led to believe house prices would plummet allowing them to get on to the 'housing ladder'...

So, which one of you is right?

Or, is it simply a case of you really don't understand [or want to] the absolute myriad of reasons folk wanted out...


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## HughJars (Mar 2, 2018)

IanM said:



			If we haven't lost control, why is a primary argument of the Remain Campaign, how difficult it is to uncouple ourselves from the EU?    

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I've never seen that propounded as a reason to remain by anyone.


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2018)

HughJars said:



			I've never seen that propounded as a reason to remain by anyone.
		
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Really?

Go and read the BBC online comments under the PMs' speech today.  Gallons of it.   You also missed the stuff about all the great Human Rights stuff we have only had from the ECHR?  We cannot do our own trade deals if we stay in the Single Market.   Most of the "Remain" posts in the Art 50 thread are about us not being able to exist and trade if we leave the EU.  The EU openly planning a EU Army, Border Control and Coastguard.  They have tabled a motion to remove Member States from the IMO in favour of a single EU seat.  

I could go on,

But of course, I could be wrong.  No one has ever said any of the above.


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2018)

IanM said:



			If we haven't lost control, why is a primary argument of the Remain Campaign, how difficult it is to uncouple ourselves from the EU?    

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Exactly - if we've got control why is the EU so worried about imposing the controls of ECJ and maintaining its jurisdiction?

The whole of the EU's negotiating strategy is based on maintaining control of the UK (and as an example to the other 27 not to step out of line)!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2018)

Well good to see our Foreign Secretary keeping things calm and diplomatic with the Russians by comparing Putin and the World Cup with Hitler and the Olympics.  Hardly a sensible comparison when the Russians lost millions of people fighting Hitler.  And it seems that most think that Boris our dear buffoon of a FS has blundered big time, and not for the first time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well good to see our Foreign Secretary keeping things calm and diplomatic with the Russians by comparing Putin and the World Cup with Hitler and the Olympics.  Hardly a sensible comparison when the Russians lost millions of people fighting Hitler.  And it seems that most think that Boris our dear buffoon of a FS has blundered big time, and not for the first time.
		
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4 years to late. Putin used the Winter Olympics in Russia for that.

Nice peice, straight out of the mouth of the BBC reporter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			4 years to late. Putin used the Winter Olympics in Russia for that.

Nice piece, *straight out of the mouth of the BBC reporter.*

Click to expand...

Eh?  What you on about?


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Eh?  What you on about?
		
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Move up a gear and listen to current affairs and news programmes rather than getting your info from rant radio.

PS. I think Boris said "like Hitler he would use the WC " not as being spun that he suggested that Putin was "Like Hilter".


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2018)

Any sort of connection, however it was said was hugely irresponsible and foolish. Russia suffered horribly during Ww2 and Boris knows his history. We need to be calming this situation down, this would have the absolute opposite effect.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Any sort of connection, however it was said was hugely irresponsible and foolish. Russia suffered horribly during Ww2 and Boris knows his history. We need to be calming this situation down, this would have the absolute opposite effect.
		
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Johnson is an egotistical idiot.
How on earth has the UK stepped so low as to have this boy/man buffoon as Foreign Secretary.
No wonder the RoW is laughing at us.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson is an egotistical idiot.
How on earth has the UK stepped so low as to have this boy/man buffoon as Foreign Secretary.
No wonder the RoW is laughing at us.
		
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Yup. Totally agree.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Any sort of connection, however it was said was hugely irresponsible and foolish. Russia suffered horribly during Ww2 and Boris knows his history. We need to be calming this situation down, this would have the absolute opposite effect.
		
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They certainly did and having visited Russia several times I have great sympathy for their past and current predicament but let's not forget, if Russia hadn't reached a misguided deal to allow Germany the control of the western front they might not hav suffered the consequences but that's history and time to move on.

Putin does everything for effect and the media and when your country is in the grips of a one sided media it has the predicted effect on the population that has been surprised since 1917. That does give the media an he right to stir things up by taking idiot Boris's answer to the select committee out of context. Once again we have certain reporters wanting to make the news rather than report it.

Anyway, off to East Devon GC today so enjoy your day peps.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2018)

IanM said:



			Really?

Go and read the BBC online comments under the PMs' speech today.  Gallons of it.   *You also missed the stuff about all the great Human Rights stuff we have only had from the ECHR?*  We cannot do our own trade deals if we stay in the Single Market.   Most of the "Remain" posts in the Art 50 thread are about us not being able to exist and trade if we leave the EU.  The EU openly planning a EU Army, Border Control and Coastguard.  They have tabled a motion to remove Member States from the IMO in favour of a single EU seat.  

I could go on,

But of course, I could be wrong.  No one has ever said any of the above.
		
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Bit late picking this up, but why/how are you connecting ECtHR and EU? They are totally unrelated bodies, with completely separate histories, aims etc! The only things they have in common is that the UK (amongst many others) is a participant in both and that the government occasionally objects to receiving unfavourable rulings from an 'external court'!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2018)

Johnson telling porkies again.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

Just off to buy some Channel perfume for the Mrs.
I heard that they have some that are 'closely related agents' down the local market for a great price.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2018)

I'm sorry - but watching Boris Johnson being interviewed last night on the BBC News I could not help but wonder 'what a scruff' our Foreign Secretary looks.  Does he think his hair style is cool and attractive - does it project an appropriate image (my wife thought it must be gelled or waxed in some way for it to be so sticky-outy and all over the place).

He is our Foreign Secretary and he is theoretically the face of the UK overseas - and I wonder what folks abroad actually think when they see him sitting there - scarecrow hair all over the place - and then they remember the zip wire and laugh.  

In some roles I have held where I would meet with the most senior executives in my company - many who were my internal customers - or where I would meet with senior representatives of potential or real external customers - I would be told to tidy myself up and get a hair cut if I looked like Johnson.

Ach well - what do we expect with him - scatter-haired and scatter-brained perhaps do go together.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2018)

As so the wisdom and loose tongue of our dear FS hands the Russians a big bat to hit us with over the poisoning of the Skripals.  

This is the poisoning about which - not that very many moons ago - the FS told us that a 'guy' at Porton Down had told him it was definitely Russia and the FO tweeted accordingly.  

And so to today - and Porton Down tell us that they can't attribute the source of the chemical agent used for the poisoning as being Russia - despite our FS and the Foreign Office claiming that PD had indeed made that positive connection.  And so the FO delete the tweet. Nice one Boris.  Makes Corbyn's caution look spot on.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...wnnovichok-claims-as-opcw-meets-politics-live


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## shagster (Apr 8, 2018)

BJ a very apt name for what must be the most odious politician of all time
Accuses Russia of crimes with no actual evidence 
Stops relations visiting 
Produces no facts whatsoever 
And trying to blame the opposition for his complete incompetence 
Imagine if this was Russia accusing us
This complete buffoon is only kept in his position by the totally biased nazi press. 
How can anyone be so so completely taken in by this waste of oxygen is beyond my comprehension but he is obviously a hero to some dimwits out there who will believe anything, even whatâ€™s written in the mail


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## Slime (Apr 8, 2018)

shagster said:



			BJ a very apt name for what must be the most odious politician of all time
Accuses Russia of crimes with no actual evidence 
Stops relations visiting 
Produces no facts whatsoever 
And trying to blame the opposition for his complete incompetence 
Imagine if this was Russia accusing us
This complete buffoon is only kept in his position by *the totally biased nazi press. *
How can anyone be so so completely taken in by this waste of oxygen is beyond my comprehension but he is obviously a hero to some dimwits out there who will believe anything, even whatâ€™s written in the mail
		
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Oooh, are you sure about that?


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2018)

Slime said:



			Oooh, are you sure about that?
		
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Indeed! The highlighted bit ruins a post that, otherwise, pretty much reflects my view of 'Bozo the buffoon'!


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## Slime (Apr 8, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! The highlighted bit ruins a post that, otherwise, pretty much reflects my view of 'Bozo the buffoon'!
		
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Sorry Foxholer, it was just the highlighted bit I was referring to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! The highlighted bit ruins a post that, otherwise, pretty much reflects my view of 'Bozo the buffoon'!
		
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You obviously don't get the Scottish press, or BBC Scotchland 
We work on the premise that the headline is always a lie.

BTW ........great post Shagster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2018)

shagster said:



			BJ a very apt name for what must be the most odious politician of all time
Accuses Russia of crimes with no actual evidence 
Stops relations visiting 
Produces no facts whatsoever 
And trying to blame the opposition for his complete incompetence 
Imagine if this was Russia accusing us
This complete buffoon is only kept in his position by the totally biased nazi press. 
How can anyone be so so completely taken in by this waste of oxygen is beyond my comprehension but he is obviously a hero to some dimwits out there who will believe anything, even whatâ€™s written in the mail
		
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My old boss was a great guy......he told me once that if you have a difficult decision to make, turn the whole thing on it's head and look at it the other way........try doing that with the Salisbury situation and then tell me if the UK government deserves our support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2018)

shagster said:



			BJ a very apt name for what must be the most odious politician of all time
Accuses Russia of crimes with no actual evidence 
Stops relations visiting 
Produces no facts whatsoever 
And trying to blame the opposition for his complete incompetence 
Imagine if this was Russia accusing us
This complete buffoon is only kept in his position by the totally biased nazi press. 
How can anyone be so so completely taken in by this waste of oxygen is beyond my comprehension but he is obviously a hero to some dimwits out there who will believe anything, even whatâ€™s written in the mail
		
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We might want to also ask what has happened to our FS's dedication, care and attention to getting Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe released - seems that's all forgotten about now that our FS is not in the headlights over it and so she can just stay where she is...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...an-press-release-ofnazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe/


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2018)

Slime said:



			Sorry Foxholer, it was just the highlighted bit I was referring to.
		
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Yeah, agreed! The 'Indeed' referred to your post; the rest referred to shagster's one. Sorry for any confusion!



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We might want to also ask what has happened to our FS's dedication, care and attention to getting Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe released - seems that's all forgotten about now that our FS is not in the headlights over it and so she can just stay where she is...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...an-press-release-ofnazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe/

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Yep! That's one of his Bojo-ups! Best hair day for him in that link though!


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My old boss was a great guy......he told me once that if you have a difficult decision to make, turn the whole thing on it's head and look at it the other way........try doing that with the Salisbury situation and then tell me if the UK government deserves our support.
		
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I believe 'the UK government' has got it right! While the PM has erred slightly on the 'guilty until proven innocent' side, I can actually (and unusually) forgive her for taking that approach, given.... the outrageous act; the evidence of the substance; the history of other similar incidents, both in UK and elsewhere! Corbyn's 'let's wait for all the facts' approach is definitely closer to the 'innocent until proven guilty' traditional UK Justice approach - frequently different from the 'public opinion'/press one! - but it seems, to me, that all the evidence points to Russian agencies as the culprits! My only issue is how far up the command/authorisation chain any decision was made! I've read too many Tom Clancy, David Baldacci etc. stories, let alone having known a dedicated/devout conspiracy theorist!

Now how the Conservative Party uses this issue to further its aims or attack Labour is a whole different issue!


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## IanM (Apr 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My old boss was a great guy......he told me once that if you have a difficult decision to make, turn the whole thing on it's head and look at it the other way........try doing that with the Salisbury situation and then tell me if the UK government deserves our support.
		
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...using that maxim, Hitler was misunderstood.  So much for that theory!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I believe 'the UK government' has got it right! While the PM has erred slightly on the 'guilty until proven innocent' side, I can actually (and unusually) forgive her for taking that approach, given.... the outrageous act; the evidence of the substance; the history of other similar incidents, both in UK and elsewhere! Corbyn's 'let's wait for all the facts' approach is definitely closer to the 'innocent until proven guilty' traditional UK Justice approach - frequently different from the 'public opinion'/press one! - but it seems, to me, that all the evidence points to Russian agencies as the culprits! My only issue is how far up the command/authorisation chain any decision was made! I've read too many Tom Clancy, David Baldacci etc. stories, let alone having known a dedicated/devout conspiracy theorist!

Now how the Conservative Party uses this issue to further its aims or attack Labour is a whole different issue!
		
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Jury is out for me.
This one joins my list of Dr David Kelly, Chinook Kintyre crash and Deepcut soldiers deaths until I know better.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jury is out for me.
This one joins my list of Dr David Kelly, Chinook Kintyre crash and Deepcut soldiers deaths until I know better.
		
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Whereas Vlad 'only' has the poisoning of Litvinenko, the bringing down of MH17 and providing the ways and means allowing Assad to indulge in a 'bit' of genocide lurking in the background...


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Whereas Vlad 'only' has the poisoning of Litvinenko, the bringing down of MH17 and providing the ways and means allowing Assad to indulge in a 'bit' of genocide lurking in the background...
		
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Wonder where Assad is getting his chemical weapons and gas from? Yeah, the juryâ€™s on Russiaâ€™s sainthood.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2018)

Our Foreign Secretary reflects over a bite of lunch...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2018)

Conservative Home just voted Johnson 15 most capable minister, one behind Viceroy Muddle of Scotland.:whoo: That is seriously bad.
The good news is that finally the faithful seem to be arriving at the thought that he is utterly useless.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jury is out for me.
This one joins my list of Dr David Kelly, Chinook Kintyre crash and Deepcut soldiers deaths until I know better.
		
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I'd be interested in what the 'title' of that list was!


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2018)

Following comments abut hijacking and memorials, a thread about the "words of wisdom" of folk closer to home is appropriate than old Boris!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'd be interested in what the 'title' of that list was!
		
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The 'pinch of salt' list.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2018)

And so it is reported that at Cabinet, Mr Johnson has resurrected his belief that all illegal immigrants having more than 10yrs residency in the UK should be given an amnesty and allowed to stay. 

Nice one Mr Johnson - though you have upset Farage; the Faragista - many of whom would be supporters of yourself.  

A good call IMO - but methinks you have burned the boats that might have taken you to be lead boss in #10.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

Nice one Boris - speaking to Trump via Fox and Friends.  I suppose that tells us where we are with our close relationship - though Secretary of State Pompeo is best of the rest.

Meanwhile back in the UK why is Johnson not being sacked for calling 'crazy' Theresa May's preferred position of a Customs Partnership - which remains #10s favoured approach to solving the NI/EU border solution and meeting the concerns of UK business?  Just get rid of him.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nice one Boris - speaking to Trump via Fox and Friends.  I suppose that tells us where we are with our close relationship - though Secretary of State Pompeo is best of the rest.

Meanwhile back in the UK why is Johnson not being sacked for calling 'crazy' Theresa May's preferred position of a Customs Partnership - which remains #10s favoured approach to solving the NI/EU border solution and meeting the concerns of UK business?  Just get rid of him.
		
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Johnson and Farage have done unaccountable damage to the UK but I bet both will end up in the House of Lords.


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## MegaSteve (May 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson and Farage have done unaccountable damage to the UK but I bet both will end up in the House of Lords.
		
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BoJo is a certainty... However, I am not sure there's anyone amongst the political elite who'd favour seeing 'Sir' Nige as a Lord...


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nice one Boris - speaking to Trump via Fox and Friends.  I suppose that tells us where we are with our close relationship - though Secretary of State Pompeo is best of the rest.

Meanwhile back in the UK why is Johnson not being sacked for calling 'crazy' Theresa May's preferred position of a Customs Partnership - which remains #10s favoured approach to solving the NI/EU border solution and meeting the concerns of UK business?  Just get rid of him.
		
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I seem to remember that the vote for a Customs Partnership went 7-6 against, or is this another number you're skewing for the sake of your argument. There's plenty of media outlets saying the new Home Sec voted against, which swung the vote. It might be May's preferred option but it isn't the Cabinet's preferred option.


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2018)

Your talking votes again, not the mans favorite topic especially as there was only one in it.


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## ColchesterFC (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile back in the UK *why is Johnson not being sacked for calling 'crazy' Theresa May's preferred position of a Customs Partnership* - which remains #10s favoured approach to solving the NI/EU border solution and meeting the concerns of UK business?  Just get rid of him.
		
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Isn't he right though? If one of the main benefits (according to many Leavers) of leaving the EU is the ability to strike our own trade deals around the world then surely it would be "crazy" to sign up to an agreement with the EU that would prevent us from doing exactly that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I seem to remember that the vote for a Customs Partnership went 7-6 against, or is this another number you're skewing for the sake of your argument. There's plenty of media outlets saying the new Home Sec voted against, which swung the vote. It might be May's preferred option but it isn't the Cabinet's preferred option.
		
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By #10 I mean the PM as it is the PM who resides at #10.  I didn't say the Cabinet.  I know what the Cabinet vote was.  And it most certainly demonstrates that - all along - the government has had no detailed plan or contingency for leaving the Custom Union - despite what we were told about the plans being too sensitive for us to be told about.  The truth is that they just didn't exist.  And for two - May and Johnson both knew that.

No PM should put up with the insurrection activities and words of Johnson.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By #10 I mean the PM as it is the PM who resides at #10.  I didn't say the Cabinet.  I know what the Cabinet vote was.  And it most certainly demonstrates that - all along - the government has had no detailed plan or contingency for leaving the Custom Union - despite what we were told about the plans being too sensitive for us to be told about.  The truth is that they just didn't exist.  And for two - May and Johnson both knew that.

No PM should put up with the insurrection activities and words of Johnson.
		
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And also continues to demonstrate how circumspect you are with the truth.

And the PM isn't a dictator. Johnson is a loose cannon, without a doubt, but how about displaying a balanced argument that puts forward all of what goes on at #10, where the cabinet meets.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And also continues to demonstrate how circumspect you are with the truth.

And the PM isn't a dictator. Johnson is a loose cannon, without a doubt, but how about displaying a balanced argument that puts forward all of what goes on at #10, where the cabinet meets.
		
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Because if you publicly humiliated or undermined the position of the PM you'd get sacked or be forced to resign.

I am talking about the behaviour of Mr Johnson.  Cabinet collective responsibility - what is said in Cabinet stays on Cabinet?

Johnson is one duplicitous self-serving individual.


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## User62651 (Jun 25, 2018)

Boris getting some media pelters today for his absence for the Heathrow expansion vote given his 'I'll lie down in front of the bulldozers' quote, yet flying around the world instead of voting...irony. Calls (yet again) for his resignation, some from Tories. Summed up nicely by these tweets from Jess Phillips(Labour) and Darren McCaffrey(Sky) -

"_Boris Johnson saga on Heathrow is pathetic. If he fronted it out either way he'd be better off. This is the s**t that makes people hate politicians. Boris has learnt that he gets applause saying the easy stuff, he'd get respect if he said the hard stuff_"

"_From claims of Â£350m for the NHS to Heathrow, @BorisJohnson is increasingly exposing himself to claims that he is a politician who cannot be trusted. Or what critics argue, a man more interested in his career than political principles._"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Boris getting some media pelters today for his absence for the Heathrow expansion vote given his 'I'll lie down in front of the bulldozers' quote, yet flying around the world instead of voting...irony. Calls (yet again) for his resignation, some from Tories. Summed up nicely by these tweets from Jess Phillips(Labour) and Darren McCaffrey(Sky) -

"_Boris Johnson saga on Heathrow is pathetic. If he fronted it out either way he'd be better off. This is the s**t that makes people hate politicians. Boris has learnt that he gets applause saying the easy stuff, he'd get respect if he said the hard stuff_"

"_From claims of Â£350m for the NHS to Heathrow, @BorisJohnson is increasingly exposing himself to claims that he is a politician who cannot be trusted. Or what critics argue, a man more interested in his career than political principles._"
		
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And the Secretary of State for Transport - Mr Utterly Useless (aka Chris Grayling) tells us that he doesn't actually know where the FS is.  Mr Boris Me-Myself-I has extracted himself from the vote and any embarrassment - not that he might cause the government - but that he himself might feel.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Secretary of State for Transport - Mr Utterly Useless (aka Chris Grayling) tells us that he doesn't actually know where the FS is.  Mr Boris Me-Myself-I has extracted himself from the vote and any embarrassment - not that he might cause the government - but that he himself might feel.
		
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Iâ€™ll give you the Boris is an absolutely duplicitous odious individual but I feel Chris Grayling has done some very good things during a very difficult time to be in office. 

Taking the the east coast line back under the govt wing is a start, and no doubt a tough decision but at least he made it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Iâ€™ll give you the Boris is an absolutely duplicitous odious individual but I feel Chris Grayling has done some very good things during a very difficult time to be in office. 

Taking the the east coast line back under the govt wing is a start, and no doubt a tough decision but at least he made it.
		
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What has Chris Grayling actually done on his own initiative rather than responding to problems?  On the East Coast line - what alternative did he have?  Then he pretends it was a difficult decision. He says absolutely nothing of value, and when interviewed talks inconsequential tosh for as long as he has to then walks away no doubt feeling he has done what the government needed him to do and, it seems, completely unaware of how inadequate he is - in this and in every previous role he has held.

But then again Mr Me-Myself-I is way beyond any level of criticism that might be levelled at Grayling.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2018)

And so we hear from the FS - from somewhere that cannot be revealed (how convenient ) - and he tells us that his resignation to enable him to vote against the government - holding to what he said - would achieve absolute nothing.  

Well dear FS - you are wrong as your resignation over this would demonstrate that you have at least an inkling of an idea of what a principled position is - and we'd get rid of you. But am I not surprised that he has not resigned over it - because as usual it's all about himself.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we hear from the FS - from somewhere that cannot be revealed (how convenient ) - and he tells us that his resignation to enable him to vote against the government - holding to what he said - would achieve absolute nothing.  

Well dear FS - you are wrong as your resignation over this would demonstrate that you have at least an inkling of an idea of what a principled position is - and we'd get rid of you. But am I not surprised that he has not resigned over it - because as usual it's all about himself.
		
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"and we'd get rid of you." You're more interested in getting rid of him than what his position is. Let's be honest here, this whole thread of yours is about how bad Boris is, and how damaging he is. You will highlight absolutely everything you possibly can to paint him badly.

He's an odious politician who'd sell his gran, as we all know, but don't you think you also look a little obsessed, or even deranged, the way you go on about him. 

But if you want to have a go at a politician about them changing their tune to suit, pick almost any of them. Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott definitely. Add Michael Gove to the list, and the two previous leaders of the LibDems. The list is almost endless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"and we'd get rid of you." You're more interested in getting rid of him than what his position is. Let's be honest here, this whole thread of yours is about how bad Boris is, and how damaging he is. You will highlight absolutely everything you possibly can to paint him badly.

He's an odious politician who'd sell his gran, as we all know, but don't you think you also look a little obsessed, or even deranged, the way you go on about him. 

But if you want to have a go at a politician about them changing their tune to suit, pick almost any of them. Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott definitely. Add Michael Gove to the list, and the two previous leaders of the LibDems. The list is almost endless.
		
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I have very little time for those Labour politicians you mention and will happily criticise them for their own ineptitudes and evasions.  Gove I could see why he did what he did to the FS.

But the FS is just an out-and-out chancer.  My pointing this out is simply given my concern that there are many in the UK - it seems - who would have him as PM - and of course that is what he is after and so will squirm, wriggle, bluster, evade and deceive as is required to meet that end.  Some will say - well aren't all MPs like that?  Well they aren't - and indeed very few are in cabinet positions with realistic ambitions of becoming PM.  He is our FS - he represents the UK abroad and is the face of the UK.  Some face.


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## PieMan (Jun 25, 2018)

Interestingly I've heard from colleagues in the Foreign Office that the dealings they've had with the Foreign Secretary have been very positive; and that he's actually good at his job.

Likewise my experiences with my Secretary of State - Gove - have also been positive; and the general consensus from my colleagues is that he's very much on top of his portfolio and doing a good job.

Incredulous isn't it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interestingly I've heard from colleagues in the Foreign Office that the dealings they've had with the Foreign Secretary have been very positive; and that he's actually good at his job.

Likewise my experiences with my Secretary of State - Gove - have also been positive; and the general consensus from my colleagues is that he's very much on top of his portfolio and doing a good job.

Incredulous isn't it?
		
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Gove I get and can go with.  Johnson? - well as FS he does not seem to be involved in any significant policy initiatives that I am aware of - he is the diplomatic face of the UK and opinions clearly vary about whether in fact he is any good.  Internally maybe - out there in the world where his job really is?

Iain Dale - respected Conservative; up front in the media; and strong advocate of Brexit has had enough of the FS and thinks 100% that he should be sacked.  That he should express a '***k business' sentiment when questioned over the likes of concerns of Airbus and Siemens, and just dump any principles over Heathrow...well Dale has had enough - he calls him an embarrassment to the UK - not respected and a figure of fun across the globe.

And that not from me but from a prominent Tory Brexiteer.


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## PieMan (Jun 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			- he is the diplomatic face of the UK and opinions clearly vary about whether in fact he is any good.  Internally maybe - out there in the world where his job really is?
		
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Yep, the ones I have spoken to and who have been out with him have said he's good.

Likewise I've seen Liam Fox in meetings with foreign counterparts and he's been impressive.

But I suppose they're only doing their day jobs.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gove I get and can go with.  Johnson? - well as FS he does not seem to be involved in any significant policy initiatives that I am aware of - he is the diplomatic face of the UK and opinions clearly vary about whether in fact he is any good.  Internally maybe - out there in the world where his job really is?

Iain Dale - respected Conservative; up front in the media; and strong advocate of Brexit has had enough of the FS and thinks 100% that he should be sacked.  That he should express a '***k business' sentiment when questioned over the likes of concerns of Airbus and Siemens, and just dump any principles over Heathrow...well Dale has had enough - he calls him an embarrassment to the UK - not respected and a figure of fun across the globe.

And that not from me but from a prominent Tory Brexiteer.
		
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Should Airbus and BMW have aired their concerns in public, thus potentially damaging the UK's negotiating position, or should they have requested a private meeting as the Japanese car manufacturers have done? Your own Constituency MP, Hunt, has been very critical of Airbus and BMW for this very reason.

For years people have complained about big business running the country, especially when the tories are in power, but are howling at the govt over Airbus, BMW et al.

Airbus want a decent transition period to do what they have been saying for years. They want to move the wing manufacturing from Deesside to Toulouse. And now they can lay the blame on the UK govt.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2018)

I rather suspect many of BoJo's constituents will be giving him some grief with regard his Houdini act today...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 25, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interestingly I've heard from colleagues in the Foreign Office that the dealings they've had with the Foreign Secretary have been very positive; and that he's actually good at his job.

Likewise my experiences with my Secretary of State - Gove - have also been positive; and the general consensus from my colleagues is that he's very much on top of his portfolio and doing a good job.

Incredulous isn't it?
		
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PieMan said:



			Yep, the ones I have spoken to and who have been out with him have said he's good.

Likewise I've seen Liam Fox in meetings with foreign counterparts and he's been impressive.

But I suppose they're only doing their day jobs.
		
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Will you please stop coming on here with your first hand knowledge of what's actually going on as it doesn't fit with some posters preferred preconceived ideas. It's not welcome and it's not helpful. To them. :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Will you please stop coming on here with your first hand knowledge of what's actually going on as it doesn't fit with some posters preferred preconceived ideas. It's not welcome and it's not helpful. To them. :thup:
		
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With a greatly reduced majority, at the most recent GE, perhaps Boris could do with PieMan's help convincing his constituents about how good a job he is doing for them...


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## PieMan (Jun 26, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			With a greatly reduced majority, at the most recent GE, perhaps Boris could do with PieMan's help convincing his constituents about how good a job he is doing for them...
		
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Interesting as his % share of the vote increased from 2015 GE. Granted only by 0.6% &#128521;&#128514;&#128514;

Looks like the biggest gains by Labour im his constituency were from UKIP and Greens.

The Heathrow decision may well have an effect at the next GE though, although a number of factors could also mean he increases his majority. A fickle game politics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			With a greatly reduced majority, at the most recent GE, perhaps Boris could do with PieMan's help convincing his constituents about how good a job he is doing for them...
		
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Indeed - clearly as Johnson and Fox are so brilliant and on top of their jobs their PR teams aren't doing a great job.  Bit od though how some Tory MPs - who will clearly know Johnson pretty well  - aren't so convinced.


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## PieMan (Jun 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - clearly as Johnson and Fox are so brilliant and on top of their jobs their PR teams aren't doing a great job.  Bit od though how some Tory MPs - who will clearly know Johnson pretty well  - aren't so convinced.
		
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But that's party politics - totally different animal to their actual Ministerial jobs. I was just pointing out that they're actually respected by a good number of the Civil Servants who work for them on a day-to-day basis.

But should've remembered that wouldn't be good enough for you. Sorry for being an inconvenience to you and wasting time contributing to this thread. As you were.....&#128521;&#128077;


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## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting as his % share of the vote increased from 2015 GE. Granted only by 0.6% &#128521;&#128514;&#128514;

Looks like the biggest gains by Labour im his constituency were from UKIP and Greens.

The Heathrow decision may well have an effect at the next GE though, although a number of factors could also mean he increases his majority. A fickle game politics.
		
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Ah statistics... With a previous majority of about 10K reduced to about 5K iirc... 

Not just the third runway that's a concern... Many feel let down over his handling of HS2... 
And, as a prominent exiteer in a largely remain area it could get awkward...
As a mate commented... Can see why HoT were glad to see the back of him...

Previous incumbent was a highly respected local man with a genuine feel for the area/voters...
Then you get Boris who is none of the above...

Thankfully I no longer live in the constituency...
Tory HQ lumbered us with the son of a 'grandee'...
Marginally better than Boris, I suppose...


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## PieMan (Jun 26, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Ah statistics... With a previous majority of about 10K reduced to about 5K iirc... 

Not just the third runway that's a concern... Many feel let down over his handling of HS2... 
And, as a prominent exiteer in a largely remain area it could get awkward...
As a mate commented... Can see why HoT were glad to see the back of him...

Previous incumbent was a highly respected local man with a genuine feel for the area/voters...
Then you get Boris who is none of the above...

Thankfully I no longer live in the constituency...
Tory HQ lumbered us with the son of a 'grandee'...
Marginally better than Boris, I suppose...
		
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Yep - you can slant stats any way you like. At the end of the day he still had the numbers to be returned as the MP for the constituency; and a half-decent majority to take into the next election. But not for one minute ruling our another 'Portillo' moment when the time comes.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Yep - you can slant stats any way you like. At the end of the day he still had the numbers to be returned as the MP for the constituency; and a half-decent majority to take into the next election. But not for one minute ruling our another 'Portillo' moment when the time comes.
		
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As it was in the '60s the last time labour held the seat... Fair to say it would be one almighty turnaround for Boris to be shown the door... Which is why, I suppose, Tory HQ [against local wishes] 'gifted' him the seat..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2018)

Of course all the debate about the FS happens simply because the PM is too weak to sack him - and sacked he would have been under any previous PM and in normal circumstances.  That Johnson's self-interest is, to a large part, responsible for the abnormal and chaotic circumstances we find ourselves in is almost a footnote.


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## hors limite (Jun 26, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interestingly I've heard from colleagues in the Foreign Office that the dealings they've had with the Foreign Secretary have been very positive; and that he's actually good at his job.

Likewise my experiences with my Secretary of State - Gove - have also been positive; and the general consensus from my colleagues is that he's very much on top of his portfolio and doing a good job.

Incredulous isn't it?
		
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If he was some backroom technocrat, we might give some credibility to your Whitehall chums evaluation. However, his job has a high profile and he represents the UK at the highest level on the world stage and it is in this key area where is performance has been abysmal. Incidentally, did your chums find any polyps when they were up there?


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## PieMan (Jun 26, 2018)

hors limite said:



			If he was some backroom technocrat, we might give some credibility to your Whitehall chums evaluation. However, his job has a high profile and he represents the UK at the highest level on the world stage and it is in this key area where is performance has been abysmal. Incidentally, did your chums find any polyps when they were up there?
		
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What are you going on about? I've already told you that people who've been with him have been impressed with him in his role as FS!

But of course if you know better and have actually been with him in his official capacity then fair play.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2018)

PieMan said:



			What are you going on about? I've already told you that people who've been with him have been impressed with him in his role as FS!

But of course if you know better and have actually been with him in his official capacity then fair play.
		
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Point is that whilst he might seem to be on top of the job when 'in-house' - when he is actually out there doing the job where it really matters, he is just an embarrassment and liability - and almost a 'figure of fun' for the world's diplomats and leaders.  And we don't need a FoF as a FS.


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## PieMan (Jun 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Point is that whilst he might seem to be on top of the job when 'in-house' - when he is actually out there doing the job where it really matters, he is just an embarrassment and liability - and almost a 'figure of fun' for the world's diplomats and leaders.  And we don't need a FoF as a FS.
		
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But as I've been trying to get across - obviously not well enough - when he's behind closed doors - even when abroad and in his role as FS - he's very good. Blimey thought everyone was well aware that you shouldn't believe everything you read/see in the media!!

I appreciate that there's a number of you on here who don't want to believe that, but to say he's a figure of fun and not capable on the world stage is just not accurate. But hey, that's only what I've been told from colleagues who have been working with him since he was appointed.

As I said, if anyone knows different - like actually being in meetings with him at these international events - then happy to stand corrected.


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## gmc40 (Jun 26, 2018)

PieMan said:



			But as I've been trying to get across - obviously not well enough - when he's behind closed doors - even when abroad and in his role as FS - he's very good. Blimey thought everyone was well aware that you shouldn't believe everything you read/see in the media!!

I appreciate that there's a number of you on here who don't want to believe that, but to say he's a figure of fun and not capable on the world stage is just not accurate. But hey, that's only what I've been told from colleagues who have been working with him since he was appointed.

As I said, if anyone knows different - like actually being in meetings with him at these international events - then happy to stand corrected.
		
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If he is as great behind closed doors as your chums say, could you possibly ask them to have a word with him about his public persona? Comes across as a two faced snivelling coward in the media. I suppose him having to run out of the HoC before being asked a difficult question or having to leave the country before a key vote are just unfortunate coincidences??


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2018)

gmc40 said:



			If he is as great behind closed doors as your chums say, could you possibly ask them to have a word with him about his public persona? Comes across as a two faced snivelling coward in the media. *I suppose him having to run out of the HoC before being asked a difficult question or having to leave the country before a key vote are just unfortunate coincidences??*

Click to expand...

Is it possible that his important trip to Afghanistan was sanctioned/encouraged/arranged by Theresa May to avoid any possible problems with the vote over Heathrow? I don't think May's position is a strong one, so to make sure BJ was out of the country for a key vote he opposed, might have meant that she avoided having to make a tough decision.


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## gmc40 (Jun 26, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is it possible that his important trip to Afghanistan was sanctioned/encouraged/arranged by Theresa May to avoid any possible problems with the vote over Heathrow? I don't think May's position is a strong one, so to make sure BJ was out of the country for a key vote he opposed, might have meant that she avoided having to make a tough decision.
		
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Agree however it's a tough decision she should have made some time ago. This would've given her another excuse to get rid.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2018)

gmc40 said:



			Agree however it's a tough decision she should have made some time ago. *This would've given her another excuse to get rid*.
		
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But if Pieman is to be believed (and I have no reason to doubt him) then BJ is actually doing a pretty good job so May might not want to get rid. In any government there has to be room for people to disagree and have different opinions, much like May being a Remainer and several of those in ministerial positions being Leavers. I'm not sure any PM should surround themselves by "yes men" who agree with everything they do so to have differing opinions must be a good thing.


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## gmc40 (Jun 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			But if Pieman is to be believed (and I have no reason to doubt him) then BJ is actually doing a pretty good job so May might not want to get rid. In any government there has to be room for people to disagree and have different opinions, much like May being a Remainer and several of those in ministerial positions being Leavers. I'm not sure any PM should surround themselves by "yes men" who agree with everything they do so to have differing opinions must be a good thing.
		
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Differing opinions are a good thing. The issue with Johnson however is that when he does disagree it's usually in a way that undermines the PM. That's not the way to do things.


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## User62651 (Jun 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			But if Pieman is to be believed (and I have no reason to doubt him) then BJ is actually doing a pretty good job so May might not want to get rid. In any government there has to be room for people to disagree and have different opinions, much like May being a Remainer and several of those in ministerial positions being Leavers. *I'm not sure any PM should surround themselves by "yes men" who agree with everything they do so to have differing opinions must be a good thing.*

Click to expand...

You're not wrong in that bold statement but when you're a PM/Govt with no working majority you need everyone on side. Boris is exploiting May's weakness for personal career gain any chance he gets. You don't see that (at least outwardly) with others ministers. To think otherwise is plain naive.....imho.:funk:


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## hors limite (Jun 27, 2018)

PieMan said:



			What are you going on about? I've already told you that people who've been with him have been impressed with him in his role as FS!

But of course if you know better and have actually been with him in his official capacity then fair play.
		
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So your chums are happy with his disloyalty, his mendaciousness, his scorn for business (f***), his carelessness with facts (Zaghari- Ratcliffe) - the list goes on and on? Perhaps he is being served by incompetents.


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## PieMan (Jun 27, 2018)

hors limite said:



			So your chums are happy with his disloyalty, his mendaciousness, his scorn for business (f***), his carelessness with facts (Zaghari- Ratcliffe) - the list goes on and on? Perhaps he is being served by incompetents.
		
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Yawn, yawn, yawn. Not my chums, just people who I've worked with and been in meetings with who have expressed their opinions. And I'd hardly class some of these ladies and gents as incompetent. 

But you're fully entitled to your views and opinions of course - just tried to introduce some balance and perspective to this thread. I cannot add anything else to this one now so will just sit back and laugh away.


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## Mudball (Jun 27, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Yawn, yawn, yawn. Not my chums, just people who I've worked with and been in meetings with who have expressed their opinions. And I'd hardly class some of these ladies and gents as incompetent. 

But you're fully entitled to your views and opinions of course - just tried to introduce some balance and perspective to this thread. I cannot add anything else to this one now so will just sit back and laugh away.
		
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PieMan.. I have no sympathy for you.. you have been previously warned against bring facts & observations into an emotional charged thread..    

just to disclose my card> I used to like BoJo when he was the harmless mayor of this great city.  Lost all respect for him when he chose Brexit as a way to further his political career irrespective of personal opinions (he was clearly pro-EU when he was mayor also did he not pen the pro-EU paper before switching sides).  He may be good when he is on message (clearly drafted by his team), but he is a loose cannon when he is cornered..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Waiting for some words of wisdom from our Foreign Secretary.  

For any principled person in his position with his views the words would be _'I resign'_

But we have learnt how principled our Foreign Secretary is - well Principle #1 is _'I will at all times look after #1'_


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Waiting for some words of wisdom from our Foreign Secretary.  

For any principled person in his position with his views the words would be _'I resign'_

But we have learnt how principled our Foreign Secretary is - well Principle #1 is _'I will at all times look after #1'_

Click to expand...

Didn't he give his words of wisdom yesterday which were along the lines of "I'm going to stay in government and fight for Brexit from within"? Or as I actually read it... "I'm not going to resign as my principles are quite flexible when they need to be to keep my job and ministerial car".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Didn't he give his words of wisdom yesterday which were along the lines of "I'm going to stay in government and fight for Brexit from within"? Or as I actually read it... "I'm not going to resign as my principles are quite flexible when they need to be to keep my job and ministerial car".
		
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He may well have said something like that...but news outlets of any hie don't seem to be reporting it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He may well have said something like that...but news outlets of any hie don't seem to be reporting it.
		
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There were a couple of lines about him, and what he said, in one of the BBC news articles from yesterday and also on Sky News but that's all I saw.

"The BBC understands Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was vocal and hostile in his opposition to Mrs May's plan, which he reportedly said would leave the UK as a "vassal state" and be a "serious inhibitor of free trade".
Allies of Mr Johnson say he is staying in the cabinet to "make the argument for Brexiteers"."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44752273


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## Dellboy (Jul 9, 2018)

Heâ€™s in meetings today doing his day job, but due to do a press conference at 5 tonight, so plenty of time for you to listen to James O B for some more anti UK claptrap.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			But as I've been trying to get across - obviously not well enough - when he's behind closed doors - even when abroad and in his role as FS - he's very good. Blimey thought everyone was well aware that you shouldn't believe everything you read/see in the media!!

I appreciate that there's a number of you on here who don't want to believe that, but to say he's a figure of fun and not capable on the world stage is just not accurate. But hey, that's only what I've been told from colleagues who have been working with him since he was appointed.

As I said, if anyone knows different - like actually being in meetings with him at these international events - then happy to stand corrected.
		
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He certainly made an 'unfortunate' howler (or 2) early on in his role! But it seems he's quite a quick learner! I remember cringing at the handover to London of the Olympics, but that seemed to turn out OK (especially for we West Ham fans!)!

I certainly agree that he's a serious creep (and a buffoon) whose only real loyalty is to himself! But that could be stated about ALL politicians, so I've no problem with that being so obviously his approach!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			Heâ€™s in meetings today doing his day job, but due to do a press conference at 5 tonight, so plenty of time for you to listen to James O B for some more anti UK claptrap.
		
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anti UK claptrap?...when this shambles of a government and anti-EU ideologues are driving the UK towards a cliff and you scoff at and dismiss those who suggest that a cliff is coming rapidly; we don;t have a steering wheel and and we don't know where the brakes are - and you suggest that those warning of this are anti-UK - good God.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			He certainly made an 'unfortunate' howler (or 2) early on in his role! But it seems he's quite a quick learner! I remember cringing at the handover to London of the Olympics, but that seemed to turn out OK (especially for we West Ham fans!)!

*I certainly agree that he's a serious creep (and a buffoon) whose only real loyalty is to himself! *But that could be stated about ALL politicians, so I've no problem with that being so obviously his approach!
		
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I'm sure you'd have the courage to say that to his face.

In my direct experience (albeit) a few years back - he was always on top of his subject, decisive and well respected by those around him.  Sat behind the keyboard you can ignore actual experience and Pieman's comments since that is your right but IMO these sorts of remarks are better suited to a kids playground.


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## gmc40 (Jul 9, 2018)

And he's gone

https://news.sky.com/story/live-the...id-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-11430763

I for one won't miss him. Snivelling little toad.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'm sure you'd have the courage to say that to his face.

In my direct experience (albeit) a few years back - he was always on top of his subject, decisive and well respected by those around him.  Sat behind the keyboard you can ignore actual experience and Pieman's comments since that is your right but IMO these sorts of remarks are better suited to a kids playground.
		
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There's the thing it's not the respect of those around him he should be seeking...
But those he's meant to be serving...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2018)

Complete weasel of a man


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

I wish I could say good riddance - but I suspect he will linger - and fear that before very long he will be promoting himself as a replacement for May?


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wish I could say good riddance - but I suspect he will linger - and fear that before very long promoting himself as a replacement for May?
		
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Both emotions probably reflected by a significant percentage of 'the electorate'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Some Cabinet Lead Champion of the Leave constituency he turned out to be.


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## User62651 (Jul 9, 2018)

Who'd make a good foreign secretary then? - Amber Rudd back might make most sense, important post, not one for a newbie.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Who'd make a good foreign secretary then - Amber Rudd back might make sense?
		
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The anti-EU ideologues (Cash, Bone, Jenkin, Jenkyns et al) would wet their knickers in their fury.  Mind you...


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## User62651 (Jul 9, 2018)

I think Gove might get it for loyalty.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2018)

So he raises a glass to toast the PM and promised to support her Brexit deal.
Davis resigns then he changes his mind, that oafish boy/man is nearly as two faced as Gove.


He is toast within the Tory party now, according to Mathew Parris.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So he raises a glass to toast the PM and promised to support her Brexit deal.
Davis resigns then he changes his mind, that oafish boy/man is nearly as two faced as Gove.


He is toast within the Tory party now, according to Mathew Parris.
		
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There is something about Gove that I do not mind - and somethings (plural) that I don't.  

I found his interview on Marr rather excruciating but also quite impressive as he tried oh so very hard to explain how GOOD May's proposed deal is - referencing farming and fisheries and little else (as if that was all that actually mattered).  Will he maintain that position?  I think he will.  So yes - based upon yesterday - a shoe in for Foreign Secretary?  If he wants it.  But he'll most likely then be inside the Brexit Negotiation tent in a way that Johnson was excluded.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			I think Gove might get it for loyalty.
		
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A Back-Stabber of the first order!

Probably very positive vibes - for a polititian! But no recommendation for the Foreign Secretary role imo!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is something about Gove that I do not mind - and somethings (plural) that I don't.  

I found his interview on Marr rather excruciating but also quite impressive as he tried oh so very hard to explain how GOOD May's proposed deal is - referencing farming and fisheries and little else (as if that was all that actually mattered).  Will he maintain that position?  I think he will.  So yes - based upon yesterday - a shoe in for Foreign Secretary?  If he wants it.  But he'll most likely then be inside the Brexit Negotiation tent in a way that Johnson was excluded.
		
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Sorry, clumsily written Boris is toast.

Gove is actually doing a decent job at Environment, it pains me to say.
Not so great at education, with a poor brief of what's actually occurring in Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Johnson's resignation letter - an inducement to Leave supporting members of the Tory Party to support him in a contest for leader.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson's resignation letter - an inducement to Leave supporting members of the Tory Party to support him in a contest for leader.
		
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So your mate got the Job.  Will you be sending him an email to congratulate.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Waiting for some words of wisdom from our Foreign Secretary.  

For any principled person in his position with his views the words would be _'I resign'_

But we have learnt how principled our Foreign Secretary is - well Principle #1 is _'I will at all times look after #1'_

Click to expand...

So now heâ€™s resigned does that mean youâ€™ll be acknowledging that he has acted in a principled manner, or just be looking for something else to slag him off over?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			So now heâ€™s resigned does that mean youâ€™ll be acknowledging that he has acted in a principled manner, or just be looking for something else to slag him off over?
		
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I think you seem to have forgotten that a few hours before his resignation he proposed a toast to the PM and promised her his support.
Totally unprincipled backstabber.


I think he only hung on as he did not want the public to see his humiliation of leaving Chequers in a taxi.:lol:
It also looks like the PM was about to sack him for disloyalty.


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## User62651 (Jul 10, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			So now heâ€™s resigned does that mean youâ€™ll be acknowledging that he has acted in a principled manner, or just be looking for something else to slag him off over?
		
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Honestly seemed like because Davis left on principle that forced a similar move from Johnson. Davis is the principled one here as the one who couldn't commit to his remit as he didn't believe in it so stood down, Johnson looks the guy who got politically cornered. Friday was when he needed to stand up and say 'No I can't agree' and leave, first out. Farage and co had put the boot into 'feeble' Cabinet Brexiteers welching on hard brexit over the weekend. By Monday it was too late for Johnson.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So your mate got the Job.  Will you be sending him an email to congratulate.
		
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Yes I will.  And I will encourage him to be true to his Remain beliefs and support the Prime Minister in being honest to the country about the mess that Brexit is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			So now heâ€™s resigned does that mean youâ€™ll be acknowledging that he has acted in a principled manner, or just be looking for something else to slag him off over?
		
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Are you for real - you seriously suggesting that Johnson acted in a principled manner?  Just read his resignation letter.  The language of that letter - the talking about UK becoming a Colony; that Brexit is being suffocated by unnecessary indecision - is not for the Prime Minister's eyes and ears .  That is Johnson setting out his stall for a bid to replace May  - using the sort of nationalistic populist hubris that many who are convinced that he is 'the one' will just lap out almost without question.

He has been waiting for this moment, when the REALITY of Brexit and trying to get a Deal that is not seriously damaging to the UK becomes evident - as it became evident in the proposal document that May presented to the Cabinet for discussion.  And there was always going to have to be that point - when the realities are written down - that Johnson can dismiss with a flourish without an alternative.

As an aside - I would like to see the contents of the presentation that was made beforehand in support of the proposal.  The presentation that outlines the rationale behind her proposal.  We need to see that aso.  May needs to let us see that.


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## Dellboy (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I will.  And I will encourage him to be true to his Remain beliefs and support the Prime Minister in being honest to the country about the mess that Brexit is.
		
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Well looks like your out of luck then, 3 times today he has said he now believes in Brexit and will help to carry out Mrs May's white paper and take us out of the EU.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2018)

The vitriol and insults posted by a few here about someone they have never met or interacted with  is a sad example of a subset of society.

The thread has run its course and should IMO be terminated.


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## Mudball (Jul 10, 2018)

Will BoJo get elected in the next election?  What are the odds?

He has gone back on his Heathrow promise,.. has had a pantomime as a Foreign secretary... probably done well with Brexit (though Uxbridge as part of London voted to stay)...   So what are his chances..  

I would bet my money on him getting re-elected.. and that will probably be down to no other credible opposition against him..


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## Val (Jul 10, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Will BoJo get elected in the next election?  What are the odds?

He has gone back on his Heathrow promise,.. has had a pantomime as a Foreign secretary... probably done well with Brexit (though Uxbridge as part of London voted to stay)...   So what are his chances..  

I would bet my money on him getting re-elected.. and that will probably be down to no other credible opposition against him..
		
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He'll keep his seat but whether or not he becomes a front bench MP again or not remains to be seen.


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## gmc40 (Jul 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			The vitriol and insults posted by a few here about someone they have never met or interacted with  is a sad example of a subset of society.

The thread has run its course and should IMO be terminated.
		
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So because people haven't met him face to face they can't have an opinion and the thread should be terminated? Don't be a child! It's not as if there isn't enough of him out there!

I never met Hitler either...


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Y ..............support the Prime Minister in being honest to the country about the mess that her pretend undertaking of Brexit negotiations is .
		
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fixed that for you


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2018)

gmc40 said:



			So because people haven't met him face to face they can't have an opinion and the thread should be terminated? Don't be a child! It's not as if there isn't enough of him out there!

I never met Hitler either...
		
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Of course everyone can have an opinion and are entitled to it: its the language used that is the issue and to which I draw attention - I'd respectfully suggest it is not I who is childish but those who use extreme language on a public forum simply for effect or keyboard bravado.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			The vitriol and insults posted by a few here about someone they have never met or interacted with  is a sad example of a subset of society.

The thread has run its course and should IMO be terminated.
		
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I think Johnson's words and actions speak well enough for 'the majority' on here to form a negative opinion of him.

Wanting another thread closed because you disagree with the way it is going....seems to be a trend on here.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2018)

thread will remain open

as if we close it, some nutter will just start another one in the same vein and its so much easier to police if all the crud is in one place 

Same applies to Article 50

Hush Ma Mouth


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			thread will remain open

as if we close it, some nutter will just start another one in the same vein and its so much easier to police if all the crud is in one place 

Same applies to Article 50

Hush Ma Mouth
		
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:lol: Well done Phil.

Seemingly the two Tory vice chairs have resigned over Brexit.

Now......can anyone on here name them without resorting to the dark side.


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## gmc40 (Jul 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			Of course everyone can have an opinion and are entitled to it: its the language used that is the issue and to which I draw attention - I'd respectfully suggest it is not I who is childish but those who use extreme language on a public forum simply for effect or keyboard bravado.
		
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What extreme language? I haven't read any. Pretty certain it is not permitted on this forum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

But Trump seems to like Mr Johnson...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			The vitriol and insults posted by a few here about someone they have never met or interacted with  is a sad example of a subset of society.

The thread has run its course and should IMO be terminated.
		
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.
You referring to the multiple threads where Jean-Claude Juncker has been described as a drunk or drunkard.


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## hors limite (Jul 20, 2018)

Bojo has lost his salary and car but back with his snout in the trough as a Telegraph columnist Â£275K . Couldn't even manage to do that without breaking the rule that a minister shouldn't take on such an appointment until 3 months after his departure from post. The posed " Churchillian" resignation photo, the Geoffrey Howe location for his valedictory sniping - he's so far up is own backside he must see daylight.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Bojo has lost his salary and car but back with his snout in the trough as a Telegraph columnist Â£275K . Couldn't even manage to do that without breaking the rule that a minister shouldn't take on such an appointment until 3 months after his departure from post. The posed " Churchillian" resignation photo, the Geoffrey Howe location for his valedictory sniping - he's so far up is own backside he must see daylight.
		
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And yet still so many think that he could be Prime Minister - after all is he not a decent, honest and trustworthy person with only the best for the UK at heart and willing to sacrifice much to that end.

erm...hold on...some don't agree...

I misspoke - what I said - or what I meant to say - and just in case I was not clear - was _'so many think he *couldn't *be Prime Minister'_.  So that's all clear now.


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## IanM (Jul 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			.
You referring to the multiple threads where Jean-Claude Juncker has been described as a drunk or drunkard.
		
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Fair comment isnt slander or libel


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

_niqab-wearing women look like letter-boxes..._

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...muslim-women-letter-boxes-trump-a8479306.html

Why the heck is he saying this sort of stuff - to what end?

I can only think that his target audience for his comment on niqab-wearing women is aimed at the Conservative Party membership - that group whose favour he wishes to build and maintain favour with.  

And that is so sad - both that he might consider such statements acceptable in his quest to replace May and (God forbid) become Prime Minister, and that he thinks there is an admiring and accepting audience out there listening to him.

By his words and actions - behind the jolly, bumbling facade, he really seems to be a scheming, devious and not very nice person.

I hope the Conservative party membership treat his words with the disdain they deserve.


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## chrisd (Aug 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_niqab-wearing women look like letter-boxes..._

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...muslim-women-letter-boxes-trump-a8479306.html

Why the heck is he saying this sort of stuff - to what end?

I can only think that his target audience for his comment on niqab-wearing women is aimed at the Conservative Party membership - that group whose favour he wishes to build and maintain favour with.  

And that is so sad - both that he might consider such statements acceptable in his quest to replace May and (God forbid) become Prime Minister, and that he thinks there is an admiring and accepting audience out there listening to him.

By his words and actions - behind the jolly, bumbling facade, he really seems to be a scheming, devious and not very nice person.

I hope the Conservative party membership treat his words with the disdain they deserve.
		
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Yawn!


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_niqab-wearing women look like letter-boxes..._

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...muslim-women-letter-boxes-trump-a8479306.html

Why the heck is he saying this sort of stuff - to what end?

I can only think that his target audience for his comment on niqab-wearing women is aimed at the Conservative Party membership - that group whose favour he wishes to build and maintain favour with.  

And that is so sad - both that he might consider such statements acceptable in his quest to replace May and (God forbid) become Prime Minister, and that he thinks there is an admiring and accepting audience out there listening to him.

By his words and actions - behind the jolly, bumbling facade, he really seems to be a scheming, devious and not very nice person.

I hope the Conservative party membership treat his words with the disdain they deserve.
		
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And he also decried the fact that the first conviction for wearing a niqab has just happened in Denmark. He also said he hoped said laws are never introduced in the UK. He made his feelings well known about freedom of choice, and expected that the wearing of such head dresses will die out naturally, as it is starting to do.

His comments about letter boxes is crass and insensitive but in the wider context of what he said itâ€™s clear his feelings are a lot more balanced than to label him as you have.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And he also decried the fact that the first conviction for wearing a niqab has just happened in Denmark. He also said he hoped said laws are never introduced in the UK. He made his feelings well known about freedom of choice, and expected that the wearing of such head dresses will die out naturally, as it is starting to do.

His comments about letter boxes is crass and insensitive but in the wider context of what he said itâ€™s clear his feelings are a lot more balanced than to label him as you have.
		
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I don't disagree that he was making a valid point about it not being the right thing to ban forms of dress specific to muslim women.  

My point was not that he was being islamophobic in his comments - and I didn't suggest that he was - rather than it is surely insensitive if not unwise to mock a dress code that some in the muslim community take very seriously.  

He just didn't need to say the mocking words that he wrote.  That he did I can only think that he was pandering to a constituency in the Conservative Party who might think it funny and representative of their views - and that his mocking words show his true feelings - and theirs.  And whilst such mocking thoughts undoubtedly extend beyond the Conservative Party - it is only Conservative Party members who will get to vote, if it comes to it, on a new Con party leader.


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He just didn't need to say the mocking words that he wrote.  That he did I can only think that he was pandering to a constituency in the Conservative Party who might think it funny and representative of their views - and that his mocking words show his true feelings - and theirs.  And whilst such mocking thoughts undoubtedly extend beyond the Conservative Party - it is only Conservative Party members who will get to vote, if it comes to it, on a new Con party leader.
		
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And is comments like these he makes could ensure that those members who do vote ensure he doesn't get anywhere.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2018)

Johnson seems to be playing into the UKIP/Britain First section of the Tory Party.

Quite worrying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			And is comments like these he makes could ensure that those members who do vote ensure he doesn't get anywhere.
		
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I hope you are correct - but in every joke aimed at an individual or any group there always is a kernal of truth - and that truth _could _be in his observations of the niqab - or it _could _be a glimpse into what he feels his audience will actually be thinking when reading his  words.


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## Jensen (Aug 7, 2018)

Like other countries, I personally think this item of clothing should be banned in the UK.
It is extremely rude to be unable to see someone's face and mouth, particularly in conversation. Furthermore it's open to abuse as anybody could be under that item, e.g. a wanted terrorist escaped by wearing one.
Despicable piece of clothing


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 7, 2018)

Not sure and never can understand why someone gets so upset by an item of clothing. Doesnâ€™t bother me one bit and I respect their right to be able to wear an item of clothing in line with their culture and religion. A burka never hurt anyone. Itâ€™s also extremely rude to not respect peopleâ€™s wishes and rights


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## Papas1982 (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure and never can understand why someone gets so upset by an item of clothing. Doesnâ€™t bother me one bit and I respect their right to be able to wear an item of clothing in line with their culture and religion. A burka never hurt anyone. Itâ€™s also extremely rude to not respect peopleâ€™s wishes and rights
		
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I think the argument the countries that have banned them have used is that they believe the item is used as a way to control women based on an old fashioned notion that women are second class in this particular religion and should do as they are told by their husbands.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 7, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			I think the argument the countries that have banned them have used is that they believe the item is used as a way to control women based on an old fashioned notion that women are second class in this particular religion and should do as they are told by their husbands.
		
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Its a horrible backward garment, from a horrible backward religion...... (Mind you what Religion aint!) if you look at the countries where it is most prevalent -Saudi, Yemen, Oman these countries *do *treat woman like 2nd class citizens...... I work a lot in Tower Hamlets and its common to see veiled women walking several paces behind their husband. If he stops to look in a shop window she has to hover behind!
It is unsettling to try to talk to someone when you can,t see their face, and i think people that defend it are extremely naive and have absolutely no real experience of living and working in that community.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 7, 2018)

What Boris has said re Burka has been repeated by people in this country for an age, not all but some. It has been mentioned that Boris has said what he said because he wants to raise the awareness of said face covering items and have an open discussion re whether this country should ban them or not. His choice of words once more does not enlighten him to the neutral. It has also been said by some that he will not apologise as he will run one day as primeminister and to apologise would be a sign of weakness.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure and never can understand why someone gets so upset by an item of clothing. Doesnâ€™t bother me one bit and I respect their right to be able to wear an item of clothing in line with their culture and religion. A burka never hurt anyone. *Itâ€™s also extremely rude to not respect peopleâ€™s wishes and rights*

Click to expand...

If this is correct then it could also be construed that wearing a full face covering is extremely rude and not respecting the wishes and rights of the country they have come to live in.  Covering your face in public is IMO rude and demeaning to Women in this country. I am in favor of banning it  just like some other civilised countries have done in Europe.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure and never can understand why someone gets so upset by an item of clothing. Doesnâ€™t bother me one bit and I respect their right to be able to wear an item of clothing in line with their culture and religion. A burka never hurt anyone. Itâ€™s also extremely rude to not respect peopleâ€™s wishes and rights
		
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That's a tough circle to square though. Some people could say it shows a lack of respect to those who are uncomfortable seeing someone wearing a burka.

Personally, I don't care what someone wears. I don't care what their religion is, and I don't see colour. I just see a personality, and I love talking to people from different cultures. There is so much we can all learn from each other - call it best practice. Take the best from every culture and we will have a better world to live in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If this is correct then it could also be construed that wearing a full face covering is extremely rude and not respecting the wishes and rights of the country they have come to live in.  Covering your face in public is IMO rude and demeaning to Women in this country. I am in favor of banning it  just like some other civilised countries have done in Europe.
		
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Can you point out which â€œrightâ€ it is that means people can demand a women not wear something that her religion asks - unless itâ€™s illegal that lady has every right to wear a burka. Iâ€™m not sure when you became aware of the wishes and rights of the â€œcountryâ€ - donâ€™t you mean â€œyourâ€ wishes but you have no right to demand she not wear it

If itâ€™s not illegal then tough - deal with it and if you have no wish to be associated with it donâ€™t wear it - itâ€™s causing you no harm


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## Dando (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you point out which â€œrightâ€ it is that means people can demand a women not wear something that her religion asks - unless itâ€™s illegal that lady has every right to wear a burka. Iâ€™m not sure when you became aware of the wishes and rights of the â€œcountryâ€ - donâ€™t you mean â€œyourâ€ wishes but you have no right to demand she not wear it

If itâ€™s not illegal then tough - deal with it and if you have no wish to be associated with it donâ€™t wear it - itâ€™s causing you no harm
		
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does Islam really ask that they wear them?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 7, 2018)

I find it interesting that it is perfectly acceptable for a Muslim woman dressed in this manner to enter a bank or a petrol station and be served with no questions asked, yet as a motorcyclist I'm expected to remove my crash helmet on the grounds of security, despite far more of my face being visible.  No double standards there then.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you point out which â€œrightâ€ it is that means people can demand a women not wear something that her religion asks - unless itâ€™s illegal that lady has every right to wear a burka. Iâ€™m not sure when you became aware of the wishes and rights of the â€œcountryâ€ - donâ€™t you mean â€œyourâ€ wishes but you have no right to demand she not wear it

If itâ€™s not illegal then tough - deal with it and if you have no wish to be associated with it donâ€™t wear it - itâ€™s causing you no harm
		
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Her religion does not 'ask' her to cover her face, the custom is modern and has been perpetuated by Muslim fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia. It has become more of a fashionable garment in the West.  I think covering the face in Public is making a statement that you don't want to be recognised and as such is antisocial and unacceptable for security reasons.    Some countries have created Laws that make wearing the garment in Public illegal and that creates the 'Right' to demand it is not worn.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Her religion does not 'ask' her to cover her face, the custom is modern and has been perpetuated by Muslim fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia. It has become more of a fashionable garment in the West.  I think covering the face in Public is making a statement that you don't want to be recognised and as such is antisocial and unacceptable for security reasons.    Some countries have created Laws that make wearing the garment in Public illegal and that creates the 'Right' to demand it is not worn.
		
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Again the law hadnt been created here and the government have already said they have no intentions of creating the law 

As for it being â€œmodern customâ€ quite clearly it isnâ€™t as itâ€™s been worn for centuries throughout time all over Asianand Africa , and how can you suggest what itâ€™s become when you donâ€™t wear it

A very small minority of countries have reacted to terrorist incidents and banned them -â€˜doesnâ€™t mean every country should follow suit and there have also been plenty of protests and challenges in court by Ladies saying it infringes on their human rights and their right to choose to wear it 

And you thinking they are just covering up so they arenâ€™t recognised is nothing but paranoia and lack of acceptance


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 7, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A very small minority of countries have reacted to terrorist incidents and banned them -â€˜doesnâ€™t mean every country should follow suit and there have also been plenty of protests and challenges in court *by Ladies saying it infringes on their human rights and their right to choose to wear it*

Click to expand...

Does that equally apply if I am banned from wearing a balaclava when I go to the bank or to buy petrol? Are my human rights being infringed as it's my right to choose to wear it?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 7, 2018)

Hopefully, in time, the wearing of a burqa will dis-appear along with arranged marriages, child brides and FGM...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2018)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...bookshop-bookmarks-in-london?CMP=share_btn_tw

They are starting to burn the books now.

What is it with 'protesters', how about criminal thugs and hooligans instead.


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## HughJars (Aug 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully, in time, the wearing of a burqa will dis-appear along with arranged marriages, child brides and FGM...
		
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....and religion


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

And by the discussion here Johnson has succeeded - as any debate about the appropriateness or otherwise of using mocking and intemperate language has largely been superseded by debate on the actual substance of what he wants debated and where his wider constituency lies.  And in this debate he [ulls in many more than just conservative party members.

Trump get's the media talking about his intemperate and deceitful words, whilst his intended audience hears an underlying message that appeals to them.  And when Trump has caught that audience and changes his tune to fit what the audience want to hear - and the media call that out - Fake News!  The people Trump wants on board and are onboard with what Trump says to the today.  What the media reports he said yesterday or the day before that conflicts with today's message - well that is all Fake News.

And so we wait for a change of position from Boris now that he has the islam-haters and islam-intolerants (and there are many out there) listening.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 8, 2018)

Theres now a clip of Ken Clarke making some comments too, wonder if the PM will ask him to apologise too ?


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## IanM (Aug 8, 2018)

Deleted by the "why bother" filter


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## MegaSteve (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we wait for a change of position from Boris now that he has the islam-haters and islam-intolerants (and there are many out there) listening.
		
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More and more folk have become religion intolerant not just Islam...


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## HughJars (Aug 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			More and more folk have become religion intolerant not just Islam...
		
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There seems little evidence of that, but for sure if we could clear the world of religion we'd be in a better place. People arguing about whose interpretation of a fairy story is the correct one. Give it a rest.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 8, 2018)

HughJars said:



			There seems little evidence of that, but for sure if we could clear the world of religion we'd be in a better place. People arguing about whose interpretation of a fairy story is the correct one. Give it a rest.
		
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100% Agree...Religion is vile. It is dangerous and divisive. It achieves nothing other than keeping simpletons in order for fear of either not shagging numerous virgins in paradise for eternity, or ending up in an extremely hot place being prodded with hot pokers. I am convinced the vast majority of people in the world, if left to their own devices, are decent people who want only what is best for their families and friends. Why let the obscenity of religion, that is an irrational belief in the unbelievable, corrupt that basic decency.?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

HughJars said:



			There seems little evidence of that, but for sure if we could clear the world of religion we'd be in a better place. People arguing about whose interpretation of a fairy story is the correct one. Give it a rest.
		
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Which fairy story would that be?

Actually I'm not bothered.   One persons fairy story can be another's source of inspiration and guidance.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And by the discussion here Johnson has succeeded - as any debate about the appropriateness or otherwise of using mocking and intemperate language has largely been superseded by debate on the actual substance of what he wants debated and where his wider constituency lies.  And in this debate he [ulls in many more than just conservative party members.

Trump get's the media talking about his intemperate and deceitful words, whilst his intended audience hears an underlying message that appeals to them.  And when Trump has caught that audience and changes his tune to fit what the audience want to hear - and the media call that out - Fake News!  The people Trump wants on board and are onboard with what Trump says to the today.  What the media reports he said yesterday or the day before that conflicts with today's message - well that is all Fake News.

And so we wait for a change of position from Boris now that he has the islam-haters and islam-intolerants (and there are many out there) listening.
		
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I don't hate Islam, I don't like people who hate Islam. I also don't like people that wear Burkas. It does intimidate some people.
Boris has all kinds of people and not just " haters" talking about the wearing of Burkas. Job done, he has opened a discussion that some people feel strongly about. What's wrong with that.


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## Crazyface (Aug 8, 2018)

Jensen said:



			Like other countries, I personally think this item of clothing should be banned in the UK.
It is extremely rude to be unable to see someone's face and mouth, particularly in conversation. Furthermore it's open to abuse as anybody could be under that item, e.g. a wanted terrorist escaped by wearing one.
Despicable piece of clothing
		
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Hear hear!!!!!. This should be banned!!!!


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## IanM (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which fairy story would that be?

Actually I'm not bothered.   One persons fairy story can be another's source of inspiration and guidance.
		
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And that is how it should be.....  sadly since the dawn of time fanatics have attached themselves to different beliefs and decide they can kill if you disagree.


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## Old Skier (Aug 8, 2018)

The real story should be about those that are forced to wear such outdated religious regalia.


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## bobmac (Aug 8, 2018)

Dando said:



			does Islam really ask that they wear them?
		
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It depends on the company she is with.

If she is in public she must cover everything except the hands and face.

If she is with family, other muslim women or children, the rules are more relaxed.

It actually says in the Qur'an that both men and women must dress modestly.

In the case of the women, some scholars say it's to stop other men looking at the mans wife with lust in his heart which according to Mathew 5:28
''anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart''.  NIV.


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## User62651 (Aug 8, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Boris has all kinds of people and not just " haters" talking about the wearing of Burkas. Job done, he has opened a discussion that some people feel strongly about. *What's wrong with that.*

Click to expand...

To have a debate on burkhas he could have simply said he doesn't like or agree with how 'it hides faces' instead he used terms like 'letterbox and bank robbers' per his usual pretend buffoony loveable tousle-haired rogue style, that's why he's in bother and rightly so. 
So calculated, he knows he has got to keep himself in the press, no matter who he offends, for his upcoming stint at removing May. 
Odious man.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 8, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Odious man.
		
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Verily...
And, that probably sums up the feelings of the nice half [and likely more] of the tory voters in his constituency...


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## adam6177 (Aug 8, 2018)

I do wonder how many people in the UK "agree" with his comments, is it a case of feeling like you should be offended because of the subject matter.

Many many shops will not allow people in wearing motorbike helmets for security reasons, they demand they be removed.  For me this should apply to religious attire that covers the face.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2018)

There is a great deal of ignorance about the entire subject of the Burqa!

It certainly pre-dates Islam and, apparently, was not specifically mentioned in the Quran though 'dress modestly' is mentioned for both sexes!

If it's worn by choice, then I have no qualms about it, though there are certainly places/situations in modern society where it is inappropriate - and some sort of allowance for both sides of a situation need to be established! I'm not a fan of simply banning particular dress just because it's inconvenient. 

If it's forced upon women however, as in Taliban ruled areas of Afghanistan, then I find that treatment obscene!

I DO find I'm in agreement with Boris on what it resembles however (at least the postbox bit)! But that's no reason to prevent anyone from wearing it - if the likes of actual identification issues can be resolved!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

Wonder when we'll hear of the first attempt some joker makes to stuff a letter in the face of a niqab-wearing women - bleating out an apologetic - oh sorry thought you were a letter-box - oh hahaha...

Johnson knew exactly what he was doing when choosing his words carefully - and he knew - that despite his view that a ban would be wrong - what would actually stick in the minds of too many would be his jokey mocking of women who wear the niqab.


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## IanM (Aug 8, 2018)

Sadly you might be right about an idiot doing that.

But I wonder if anyone would object if Boris ordered his wife to only go out in public dressed in a certain way?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

IanM said:



			Sadly you might be right about an idiot doing that.

But I wonder if anyone would object if Boris ordered his wife to only go out in public dressed in a certain way?
		
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Johnson's wife is one individual - he mocked a small but sensitive and quite vulnerable section of the British public, and in doing so upset much of the wider Muslim community - and gave legitimacy to idiots mouthing off at women wearing niqabs.  

Brilliant - just brilliant - he has a cunning plan I am sure - given to him by Steve Bannon no doubt.


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wonder when we'll hear of the first attempt some joker makes to stuff a letter in the face of a niqab-wearing women - bleating out an apologetic - oh sorry thought you were a letter-box - oh hahaha...

Johnson knew exactly what he was doing when choosing his words carefully - and he knew - that despite his view that a ban would be wrong - what would actually stick in the minds of too many would be his jokey mocking of women who wear the niqab.
		
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You make a lot of assumptions, or has he told you he was choosing his words carefully for maximum effect. 

If you read back through the thread there's plenty of examples of you saying he speaks before he thinks, he's bumbling fool etc etc etc. Any chance of some consistency, or can't you make your mind up what Boris is?

That said, I can't believe he gets the air time he does, but the same could be said of Farage. Sad indictment of politics and how some of the country laps up what some of the idiots say. Sounds a bit like Trump really.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2018)

And if things could not get any worse, Farage has come to support Johnson.
Tommy Robinson probably next in line to add his.


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2018)

I thought the UK had rules about sexism/equal opportunity.

Why would it be Ok for an employer to allow certain women to cover their faces but men and other women be denied the same facility.

If I visit certain countries they may demand certain dressing codes, why do those people who voluntarily come to the UK decide not to be bound by or respect our culture?


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## Slime (Aug 8, 2018)

Jensen said:



			Like other countries, I personally think this item of clothing should be banned in the UK.
It is extremely rude to be unable to see someone's face and mouth, particularly in conversation. Furthermore it's open to abuse as anybody could be under that item, e.g. a wanted terrorist escaped by wearing one.
		
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Agree with the above.
I also believe that Sikhs should be made to wear crash helmets when on a motorbike.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 8, 2018)




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## Don Barzini (Aug 8, 2018)

Slime said:



			Agree with the above.
I also believe that Sikhs should be made to wear crash helmets when on a motorbike.
		
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â€œTrotterâ€™s Crash Turbansâ€!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2018)

drdel said:



			I thought the UK had rules about sexism/equal opportunity.

Why would it be Ok for an employer to allow certain women to cover their faces but men and other women be denied the same facility.

If I visit certain countries they may demand certain dressing codes, why do those people who voluntarily come to the UK decide not to be bound by or respect our culture?
		
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And what if 'those people' are British citizens.


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2018)

A British Airways employee gets told that she can't wear a crucifix, and hyper-indignation happens. Court cases and tribunals...

A muslim woman gets told she can't wear a naqib, and what happens? 

I don't get the, "ah but it covers her face." So what. Are we to use the excuse of potential terrorists, and in so doing penalise 1,000's of legitimate wearers? Is the UK so intolerant that we don't respect their religion and their wishes? When did the UK join the race to the bottom, alongside Denmark and France?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 25362

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And socks.


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## Sweep (Aug 9, 2018)

I think cyclists in Lycra look ridiculous.
I also think golfers (including me) in Rupert Bear pants look silly.
Donâ€™t even get me started on Morris Men!
To some I have just committed a hate crime.... or have I criticised the wrong people for that?


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## Scoobiesnax (Aug 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A British Airways employee gets told that she can't wear a crucifix, and hyper-indignation happens. Court cases and tribunals...

A muslim woman gets told she can't wear a naqib, and what happens? 

I don't get the, "ah but it covers her face." So what. Are we to use the excuse of potential terrorists, and in so doing penalise 1,000's of legitimate wearers? Is the UK so intolerant that we don't respect their religion and their wishes? When did the UK join the race to the bottom, alongside Denmark and France?
		
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So we have an Imam, Dr Taj Hargey backing Boris and saying he shouldn't apologise - he is quoted as saying that the Burka â€œa nefarious component of a trendy gateway theology for religious extremism and militant Islamâ€.

He also says that nowhere in the Quran does it mention the need to wear one.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 9, 2018)

A leading Iman if that's the word, has sent a letter into the times newspaper. If anyone can post a copy greatly appreciated. Anyway he is in total support of Boris Johnson. In fact he says " Boris has not gone far enough". He says "there is nothing at all in the Koran about the wearing of the Burka and it is just a trendy gateway theology for religious extremism and militant Islam".He says that Boris should not have to apologise. Now this Iman could come across as an " extreme Muslim " crackpot". But he has been a long time critic of the wearing of Burkas, furthermore he is an advocate of both men and women being allowed to pray together. 
When I hear comments like his, which come from someone who totally understands the issue, compared to the upper class Tory snobs that say wearing a Burka is like wearing a crucifix. Lord help us. The crucifix is a religious symbol. The Burka is not. But it's not about that, it's about the wearing of the burka and other similar items intimidates some people.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 9, 2018)

https://order-order.com/quote/298964/amp/#click=https://t.co/ZoDxFVMT0a


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2018)

Honest answer...â€¦.does anyone on here feel intimidated by a woman wearing a burka, if so please explain why.


I feel intimidated by burly white guys with rings through their noses loads of tattoos and a shaven head, but a woman wearing a burka..naw.


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## bobmac (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Honest answer...â€¦.does anyone on here feel intimidated by a woman wearing a burka, if so please explain why.


I feel intimidated by burly white guys with rings through their noses loads of tattoos and a shaven head, but a woman wearing a burka..naw.
		
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How about a man wearing a burka?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

I believe the Quran has multiple comments about asking ladies to cover up their faces when in public etc etc - it doesnt specifically say " wear a Burka" but it does say ladies should wear Burkas to keep their innocence etc and to hide their beauty , i believe there was also Islam Prophets who said the same thing 

But then it doesnt bother me , they dont harm me , they havent harmed anyone and i think its born out of fear , paranoia and good old lack of acceptance for other peoples faith and religion

Its not the wearing of a burka that hurts people its the actions of people.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Honest answer...â€¦.does anyone on here feel intimidated by a woman wearing a burka, if so please explain why.


I feel intimidated by burly white guys with rings through their noses loads of tattoos and a shaven head, but a woman wearing a burka..naw.
		
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So burly black guys with rings thru' their noses etc etc don't bother you at all?


Guessing you don't come across too many burqa/niqab wearers, in your community, so not quite sure how you would know how would deal with it if you did actually meet any...


And, no I don't feel intimidated... A bit 'uneasy' [maybe] but not intimidated... 
As I said earlier, in time I feel, the wearing of the burqa/niqab will be become a rarer sight in the way it is now quite uncommon to see turban wearing Sikhs... Just hope the other associated 'stuff' like arranged marriages, child brides and FGM get confined to history also...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

60% of those polled for Sky don't think Johnson should apologise for the 'joke that misfired' (I'll be kind).  

If any of us told a joke that misfired and upset someone - we'd apologise - wouldn't we?   If someone made a joke about my wife's attire - let's just say something like _'it makes you look like a dump truck'_ hohoho, my wife might well be very insulted and very upset.  Would I stand there telling her to chill-out - it's only a joke.  I don't think so.  I would demand an apology and if I didn't get one them I might just punch the guy - maybe.

And yet 60% of those polled don't think he should apologise for the 'joke'.  What a sad country we are becoming.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

Women wearing the burka/niqab might not have hurt anyone Doon but the terror suspect who escaped wearing one as a disguise could have done. 

Or the guy that has just been jailed for torturing and murdering a shop owner during a burglary while wearing a burka as a disguise certainly did hurt someone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I think cyclists in Lycra look ridiculous.
I also think golfers (including me) in Rupert Bear pants look silly.
Donâ€™t even get me started on Morris Men!
To some I have just committed a hate crime.... or have I criticised the wrong people for that?
		
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Cyclist in Lycra know they look ridiculous
Golfers in Rupert Bear pants know they look silly
Morris Men know they are Morris Men

All the above are quite happy and accept that others might giggle and point.

Muslim women wearing the niqab do so in all seriousness - they are entitled to expect respect from others - not be made the butt of a senior politicians 'joke' - a joke that will be found funny by those of a certain mindset and whose favour he wishes to curry.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Muslim women wearing the niqab do so in all seriousness - .
		
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You know this for sure?

And, if so, why they wear it 'in all seriousness'...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			You know this for sure?

And, if so, why they wear it 'in all seriousness'...
		
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Yes - many - if not the majority - do - they want to wear it and are quite comfortable wearing it.  And if you are honest to yourself you know that for a fact - so please don't demonstrate that you are one of the 60%.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - many - if not the majority - do - they want to wear it and are quite comfortable wearing it.  And if you are honest to yourself you know that for a fact - so please don't demonstrate that you are one of the 60%.
		
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So what about those that wear it out of fear?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			So what about those that wear it out of fear?
		
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They wear it out of fear.  You are debating the rights or wrongs of the niqab.  

The problem facing Johnson is not about that debate - it is about his 'joke' and refusal to apologise.  A 'joke' that would have insulted and hurt a section of the British population going about their business harming no-one.  

Yet 60% of those polled think that that is OK and that he need not apologise.  And johnson sits there smiling as he knows his deliberate words are having exactly the effect he wanted - his deliberate words are dividing us.  

And before long it will be as it is in the states - where it does not really matter what Trump says - if Johnson's dog whistle plays the right tune then his 'side' will follow him - regardless.  And eventually every media outlet, politician or commentator who comments negatively about Boris will be accused of being a purveyor of 'fake news'

And that is troubling and sad - what has happened to us?


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## adam6177 (Aug 9, 2018)

Re the "intimidation" factor - I'd like to see how some would feel travelling on the tube in London when you're suddenly surrounded by men and women in the full religious dress in question.  I know of at least 4 people who have got off the tube and waited for the next train.

Here's a scenario which happened this week to the guy who sits next to me at work..... he's standing on the tube when a woman gets on (all you can see is eyes) and she had a black shopping trolley (think along the lines of the thing your nan uses) absolutely crammed full with something, he said all he could see on top was white cloth.  Because of everything thats happened in recent years his mind starts racing as to what could be in that trolley and I'll quote him here "I thought at least I'm standing right next to her, so if it does go off at least I wont feel anything".....and that I'm afraid is the reality that many people live with day in day out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Women wearing the burka/niqab might not have hurt anyone Doon but the terror suspect who escaped wearing one as a disguise could have done. 

Or the guy that has just been jailed for torturing and murdering a shop owner during a burglary while wearing a burka as a disguise certainly did hurt someone.
		
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The terror suspect/burglar could easily have chosen a nun's outfit for a disguise.


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## HughJars (Aug 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			If I visit certain countries they may demand certain dressing codes, why do those people who voluntarily come to the UK decide not to be bound by or respect our culture?
		
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Welllllll, maybe because we don't have such dress codes, maybe because we're NOT a country in thrawl to religious nuttery (except the pretendy type peddled by Jayda Fransen, Yaxley-Lennon & Rangers football club supporters). Just a thought.


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## Scoobiesnax (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon, really?  Or are you fishing for a bite?

In general a nun's face is not veiled!!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They wear it out of fear.  You are debating the rights or wrongs of the niqab.
		
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By stating it is worn out of seriousness you are initiating/inviting debate about the rights or wrongs...


Do you want BoJo to apologise just so you can question his sincerity?
In the manner you have with Jezza and anti-Semitism...

He is [as Maxfli65 put it yesterday] an odious man not quite sure how any apology will change that...


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## bobmac (Aug 9, 2018)

If people are demanding an apology, how does that affect his freedom of speech we have in this country, something that many islamic countries don't have.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			If people are demanding an apology, how does that affect his freedom of speech we have in this country, something that many islamic countries don't have.
		
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I can hardly believe that you actually believe what you have posted there.

You or I can say, just about, whatever we like - we are free to do so.  

But if you felt inclined to jokingly comment that what my wife was wearing made her look like a dumper truck, and your freely expressed 'jokey' comment was taken by her as an insult, that it hurt and upset her - then you might well get a punch on the nose from me for your  freedom of speech troubles if you did not apologies to her.  You can say just about whatever you want under freedom of speech - but you have to accept that there may be some comeback.

And we do not live in an Islamic country - we live in the United Kingdom - we are supposed to be proud of our values and our caring for others and tolerance of their views.

This deliberate pot-stirring by Johnson is simply to divide us - with his aim being to get enough of us 'on his side' so that he can force himself to become PM.  

The Islamic terrorists may have set out to divide us - they don't have to try very hard any more - we are doing it to ourselves through Brexit and the utterances of the likes of Johnson, Farage and their acolyte defenders.


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## Foxholer (Aug 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			...why do those people *who voluntarily come to the UK* decide not to be bound by or respect our culture?
		
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Some of those wishing to wear a 'traditional' garment may well have been born here!


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## IanM (Aug 9, 2018)

Taj Hargey, the Iman of Oxford, has made some interesting comments


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## bobmac (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we do not live in an Islamic country - we live in the United Kingdom - we are supposed to be proud of our values and our caring for others and tolerance of their views.
		
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And if you don't agree with those views you are allowed to punch them.

And if I can quote Allaah

''[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]this religion would reach all places on this earth.  â€˜This matter (i.e., Islam) will certainly reach everywhere that night and day reach, and Allaah will not leave any house or tent [i.e., all dwellings, in towns and in the desert], but Allaah will cause this religion to enter it, and some people will be honoured because of it [by converting] and others will be humiliated because of it [for refusing to embrace it], and they will be ruled by the Muslims'',[/FONT]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			And if you don't agree with those views you are allowed to punch them.

And if I can quote Allaah

''[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]this religion would reach all places on this earth.  â€˜This matter (i.e., Islam) will certainly reach everywhere that night and day reach, and Allaah will not leave any house or tent [i.e., all dwellings, in towns and in the desert], but Allaah will cause this religion to enter it, and some people will be honoured because of it [by converting] and others will be humiliated because of it [for refusing to embrace it], and they will be ruled by the Muslims'',[/FONT]

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Quoting Allah?

You know EXACTLY what I am saying and I wish you wouldn't twist it.

If you insult and upset my wife then I expect you to apologise - and if you don't then whatever might come your way as a result of your comment you cannot complain. 

Johnson is in trouble for not apologising when his 'joke' backfired.  What is so difficult to understand about that.

That aside - the more serious issue is that Johnson is setting out to divide and rule.  He is a cunning and devious person deploying odious means for his own ends - regardless of who gets hurt along the way and the damage to our society.  He is truly turning into our very own version of Trump.

Thankfully the Tories are considering a probe.  Their issue will be that Johnson will now have a lot of Tory voters (past and potential) on his side - and that will cause problems for the Tory Party.  Just look at how subservient the GOP is to Trump - they fear that any opposition to Trump will see their party in serious problems in the MidTerms in November.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Some of those wishing to wear a 'traditional' garment may well have been born here!
		
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..and some may be 2nd, 3rd ,4th generation plus.

Over one million Muslims in London some guy said on BBC Ulster yesterday.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			..and some may be 2nd, 3rd ,4th generation plus.

Over one million Muslims in London some guy said on BBC Ulster yesterday.
		
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With guesstimates of about 1% wearing the burka/niqab... 
No surprise it's not an uncommon sight down here...


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## bobmac (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quoting Allah?

You know EXACTLY what I am saying and I wish you wouldn't twist it.

If you insult and upset my wife then I expect you to apologise - and if you don't then whatever might come your way as a result of your comment you cannot complain. 

Johnson is in trouble for not apologising when his 'joke' backfired.  What is so difficult to understand about that.
		
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So Boris has upset the muslim women of Britain and won't apologise so that gives the muslim men the right for violence against Boris and his supporters despite the Imam Dr Taj Hargey who says he didn't go far enough. Covering up is even banned in Mecca!

And now 100 muslim women are *demanding Boris be kicked out of the conservative party.


*Now read the quote from Allaah again bearing in mind that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2018)

We joke, criticise and complain about sexism and inequality in other religions such as the CoE, Catholic etc and some of the 'costumes' they wear.

The UK security services have a major issue with peoples' identity - police, passports/driving licences, speed cameras etc use and require photographic evidence but because of the incorrect assumption that the Muslim religion requires women to wear these facial coverings its hands off of debating the subject. 

When sensible nations like Denmark, France and others ban such fashion based garb we should be courageous enough to recognise in modern society it is not appropriate/acceptable.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Women wearing the burka/niqab might not have hurt anyone Doon but the terror suspect who escaped wearing one as a disguise could have done. 

Or the guy that has just been jailed for torturing and murdering a shop owner during a burglary while wearing a burka as a disguise certainly did hurt someone.
		
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And this opinion is quite frankly what is wrong in this country. It is 100% correct in its Factuality, what is wrong is that the only comment is from the Scotish wind up village idiot who responds by saying it could of been a nun or a clown. No one has a valid answer to Colchesters opinion that the covering of faces can be used by terrorists and criminals and that some people do find it intimidating.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 9, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			No one has a valid answer to Colchesters opinion that the covering of faces can be used by terrorists and criminals
		
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I thought it had already been done


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			And this opinion is quite frankly what is wrong in this country. It is 100% correct in its Factuality, what is wrong is that the only comment is from the Scotish wind up village idiot who responds by saying it could of been a nun or a clown. No one has a valid answer to Colchesters opinion that the covering of faces can be used by terrorists and criminals and that some people do find it intimidating.
		
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Cars have been used by terrorists to kill people - a lot , in fact I suspect more people driving cars have killed people in this country than a lady who is wearing a burqa - would you like cars banned ? 

Jackets are used by suicide bombers to cover up the explosives around them - would you like jackets banned as well ?

There are many things in the world that people get intimidated by - that doesnâ€™t mean they should all be banned 

Itâ€™s paranoia at the end of the day and fear of a bit of clothing


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Women wearing the burka/niqab might not have hurt anyone Doon but the terror suspect who escaped wearing one as a disguise could have done. 

Or the guy that has just been jailed for torturing and murdering a shop owner during a burglary while wearing a burka as a disguise certainly did hurt someone.
		
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If no women should wear a burka just in case they're hiding the fact they might be terrorists why aren't priests, nuns and friars banned from wearing their garb? After all, there's plenty of examples of members of the IRA dressing as members of the clergy.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cars have been used by terrorists to kill people - a lot , in fact I suspect more people driving cars have killed people in this country than a lady who is wearing a burqa - would you like cars banned ? 

Jackets are used by suicide bombers to cover up the explosives around them - would you like jackets banned as well ?

There are many things in the world that people get intimidated by - that doesnâ€™t mean they should all be banned 

Itâ€™s paranoia at the end of the day and fear of a bit of clothing
		
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Its not paranoia when said Muslim woman goes for an interview to get a job as a teacher, gets job then turns up on a Monday and is wearing a Burka and the primary Skool kids are tripping out coz there scared stiff. Why did she not wear burka to interview.
Its not paranoia when leading Imams are saying that Muslim schools should be mixed and not just girls or boys. Extremist Muslim religion is causing social segregation not integration.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So Boris has upset the muslim women of Britain and won't apologise so that gives the muslim men the right for violence against Boris and his supporters despite the Imam Dr Taj Hargey who says he didn't go far enough. Covering up is even banned in Mecca!

And now 100 muslim women are *demanding Boris be kicked out of the conservative party.


*Now read the quote from Allaah again bearing in mind that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
		
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What Allah says about this is irrelevant.  If Johnson made a joke that has not been received well by those to whom it was targeted then he should apologise - this is simply a question of common decency.  

Beyond that simple matter of decency - there is a much bigger question about what Johnson is up to.  It's not even actually about _'to ban or not to ban' _the burka.  That is simply a vehicle for his ambition and an enabler for his aim to divide the nation so that he can get one part of it on his side and supportive of him.  Then following the Trump approach - he builds in that part of the nation a belief that denies everything he might subsequently say that most might once have found unacceptable and denies as fake news everything that he said in the past that might contradict his current views.

I fear that before long we'll be hearing from Johnson that - because of the fuss that has been made about his DT article and some of the views expressed - he has changed his mind over whether or not a ban is right for the UK.  I fear it because if that comes about we will know he is taking the Trump-Bannon approach to gaining power - and we can look at the seriously divided mess the US is in today - with the PotUS saying one thing and his administration having reel him in where they can and do what they know is right


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			And this opinion is quite frankly what is wrong in this country. It is 100% correct in its Factuality, what is wrong is that the only comment is from the Scotish wind up village idiot who responds by saying it could of been a nun or a clown. No one has a valid answer to Colchesters opinion that the covering of faces can be used by terrorists and criminals and that some people do find it intimidating.
		
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And I can buy a large knife; put it in a bag, and walk down the street.  That in itself does not make me a potential murderer.  

We might have a cultural difficulty looking at someone with their face covered - but there is nothing wrong with what we do and we can actually just get used to it and accept it as a norm for some of our community.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If no women should wear a burka just in case they're hiding the fact they might be terrorists why aren't priests, nuns and friars banned from wearing their garb? After all, there's plenty of examples of members of the IRA dressing as members of the clergy.
		
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Indeed - and if you know your Scottish history you'll know that many of the Scottish clergy were very active supporting those fighting for independence, and through the centuries were supportive of many Scottish causes - they were heroes.  But as far as England and parts of the Scottish nobility were concerned - these clergymen were terrorists or terrorist sympathisers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Its not paranoia when said Muslim woman goes for an interview to get a job as a teacher, gets job then turns up on a Monday and is wearing a Burka and the primary Skool kids are tripping out coz there scared stiff. Why did she not wear burka to interview.
Its not paranoia when leading Imams are saying that Muslim schools should be mixed and not just girls or boys. Extremist Muslim religion is causing social segregation not integration.
		
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What you need to know is why they were scared-stiff...

If they were taught that the wear was normal for a part of our community - and that they were assured about their new teacher - I suspect the children would accept her quite easily.  Children are very adaptable and accepting unless they are told by adults close to them to be otherwise.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What you need to know is why they were scared-stiff...

If they were taught that the wear was normal for a part of our community - and that they were assured about their new teacher - I suspect the children would accept her quite easily.  Children are very adaptable and accepting unless they are told by adults close to them to be otherwise.
		
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Why do you insist on making stuff up...

It's NOT 'normal' in any way whatsoever...


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What you need to know is why they were scared-stiff...

If they were taught that the wear was normal for a part of our community - and that they were assured about their new teacher - I suspect the children would accept her quite easily.  Children are very adaptable and accepting unless they are told by adults close to them to be otherwise.
		
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So you'd change kids behavioural/educational norms in the UK for the misguided actions of less than 1% of the population. 

I'm sorry but this is just pandering liberalism and twaddle that suggests a groundless pseudo religious reason should permit some minority rights which other members of society do not have. 

If it was a verifiable religious requirement as with the Sikh turban they I can see a reason, even though I'd still disagree.

Police, customs and numerous other can demand me to confirm my identity and request photographic evidence as verification. There is absolutely no rational reason for a comparatively modern twist on a religious suggestion should be allowed to overturn the expectation placed upon everyone else in our society.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			And this opinion is quite frankly what is wrong in this country. It is 100% correct in its Factuality, what is wrong is that the only comment is from the Scotish wind up village idiot who responds by saying it could of been a nun or a clown. No one has a valid answer to Colchesters opinion that the covering of faces can be used by terrorists and criminals and that some people do find it intimidating.
		
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Look Bach, if you are going to lose the plot and start throwing insults how about try to get your facts right.

1] I am 50% Welsh.
2] I never mentioned clowns but thanks for that, could also add policeman, nurse etc.
3] For the more paranoid of folk who lived through WW2, Nuns/priests etc dressed as German spies/terrorists was a big issue.


How many actual cased of Islamic dressed terrorists are real.
Links could prove if these fears are substantial of just imagined.

I used to think that you were an 'honest' poster not the case now, disappointed in you.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look Bach, if you are going to lose the plot and start throwing insults how about try to get your facts right.

1] I am 50% Welsh.
2] I never mentioned clowns but thanks for that, could also add policeman, nurse etc.
3] For the more paranoid of folk who lived through WW2, Nuns/priests etc dressed as German spies/terrorists was a big issue.


How many actual cased of Islamic dressed terrorists are real.
Links could prove if these fears are substantial of just imagined.

I used to think that you were an 'honest' poster not the case now, disappointed in you.
		
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I'd be interested (in these times of legally enforceable Equal Opportunity for all) to know why you think its fine for some people to keep their identity secret when the lawful majority cannot?


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If no women should wear a burka just in case they're hiding the fact they might be terrorists why aren't priests, nuns and friars banned from wearing their garb? After all, there's plenty of examples of members of the IRA dressing as members of the clergy.
		
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It's not the burka, it's the niqab that I was talking about. And the difference between the niqab and the burka or any of the other "costumes" that you mention is the face covering. Did the members of the IRA who dressed as clergy cover their faces to conceal their identity? (<- genuine question as I don't know). My only problem with this type of dress (and it is just the niqab not the burka that I object to) is the concealing of the identity. If I can't wear a crash helmet or balaclava to enter certain places why should it be permissible for someone to wear a niqab which does exactly the same thing and is not a religious requirement?


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## Dando (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What Allah says about this is irrelevant.  If Johnson made a joke that has not been received well by those to whom it was targeted then he should apologise - this is simply a question of common decency.  

Beyond that simple matter of decency - there is a much bigger question about what Johnson is up to.  It's not even actually about _'to ban or not to ban' _the burka.  That is simply a vehicle for his ambition and an enabler for his aim to divide the nation so that he can get one part of it on his side and supportive of him.  Then following the Trump approach - he builds in that part of the nation a belief that denies everything he might subsequently say that most might once have found unacceptable and denies as fake news everything that he said in the past that might contradict his current views.

I fear that before long we'll be hearing from Johnson that - because of the fuss that has been made about his DT article and some of the views expressed - he has changed his mind over whether or not a ban is right for the UK.  I fear it because if that comes about we will know he is taking the Trump-Bannon approach to gaining power - and we can look at the seriously divided mess the US is in today - with the PotUS saying one thing and his administration having reel him in where they can and do what they know is right
		
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Of course what Allah says about this is irrelevant as it doesnâ€™t suit your agenda at the moment!

also Iâ€™m certain that Johnson already said that a ban isnt right in the uk but once again the truth doesnâ€™t suit your warped mind


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## Dando (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can hardly believe that you actually believe what you have posted there.

You or I can say, just about, whatever we like - we are free to do so.  

But if you felt inclined to jokingly comment that what my wife was wearing made her look like a dumper truck, and your freely expressed 'jokey' comment was taken by her as an insult, that it hurt and upset her - then you might well get a punch on the nose from me for your  freedom of speech troubles if you did not apologies to her.  You can say just about whatever you want under freedom of speech - but you have to accept that there may be some comeback.

And we do not live in an Islamic country - we live in the United Kingdom - we are supposed to be proud of our values and our caring for others and tolerance of their views.

This deliberate pot-stirring by Johnson is simply to divide us - with his aim being to get enough of us 'on his side' so that he can force himself to become PM.  

The Islamic terrorists may have set out to divide us - they don't have to try very hard any more - we are doing it to ourselves through Brexit and the utterances of the likes of Johnson, Farage and their acolyte defenders.
		
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you're right we donâ€™t live in an Islamic country- they live in ours but some have no desire to integrate or respect our values but I guess in your eyes thatâ€™s ok.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Cars have been used by terrorists to kill people* - a lot , in fact I suspect more people driving cars have killed people in this countrythan a lady who is wearing a burqa - would you like cars banned ? 

Jackets are used by suicide bombers to cover up the explosives around them - would you like jackets banned as well ?

There are many things in the world that people get intimidated by - that doesnâ€™t mean they should all be banned 

Itâ€™s paranoia at the end of the day and fear of a bit of clothing
		
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This is true but there is a law to prevent cars having windows that are too blacked out. Why do you think that is? 


Wearing the Niqab denies one of the most basic of human interactions..... looking at someones face whilst conversing....... Reading through this thread I think many of the "defenders" of the Niqab don't have any real experience dealing with Muslims who wear it.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quoting Allah?

You know EXACTLY what I am saying and I wish you wouldn't twist it.

If you insult and upset my wife then I expect you to apologise - and *if you don't then whatever might come your way as a result of your comment you cannot complain. *

Johnson is in trouble for not apologising when his 'joke' backfired.  What is so difficult to understand about that.

That aside - the more serious issue is that Johnson is setting out to divide and rule.  He is a cunning and devious person deploying odious means for his own ends - regardless of who gets hurt along the way and the damage to our society.  He is truly turning into our very own version of Trump.

Thankfully the Tories are considering a probe.  Their issue will be that Johnson will now have a lot of Tory voters (past and potential) on his side - and that will cause problems for the Tory Party.  Just look at how subservient the GOP is to Trump - they fear that any opposition to Trump will see their party in serious problems in the MidTerms in November.
		
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This all sounds very Charlie Hebdo to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			This is true but there is a law to prevent cars having windows that are too blacked out. Why do you think that is? 


Wearing the Niqab denies one of the most basic of human interactions..... looking at someones face whilst conversing....... Reading through this thread I think many of the "defenders" of the Niqab don't have any real experience dealing with Muslims who wear it.
		
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I have worked in - Saudi Arabia , Iraq , Kuwait , Bahrain , Afghanistan - come across plenty of people wearing the clothing that has everyone so worried - not once did I feel threatened by them. 

In regards the car anology they still are being used to kill people - regardless of what the Windows off - so itâ€™s an item that anyone can buy but kills more people than someone wearing a Burqa - do you demand itâ€™s banned ?


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## Old Skier (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			1] I am 50% Welsh.
		
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Said the man who didn't know Wales was a country.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But if you felt inclined to jokingly comment that what my wife was wearing made her look like a dumper truck, and your freely expressed 'jokey' comment was taken by her as an insult, that it hurt and upset her - then you might well get a punch on the nose from me for your  freedom of speech troubles if you did not apologies to her.
		
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Surely as a self professed religious man you should be walking away and turning the other cheek rather than resorting to violence.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I have worked in - Saudi Arabia , Iraq , Kuwait , Bahrain , Afghanistan - come across plenty of people wearing the clothing that has everyone so worried - not once did I feel threatened by them. *

In regards the car anology they still are being used to kill people - regardless of what the Windows off - so itâ€™s an item that anyone can buy but kills more people than someone wearing a Burqa - do you demand itâ€™s banned ?
		
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Very bad argument with no logic. You miss a crucial fact because the major difference is that these are Muslim countries where it is *their* religion and culture and you were, hopefully, a respectful guest! In addition they are not under the same security issues as the UK


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## Old Skier (Aug 9, 2018)

I wonder if those who support the wearing of the Burqa also support:

1) forcing females to wear it
2) forced marriage
3) FGM
4) Sharia law
5) the taking of many wives

All falsely claimed to be part of the teachings of Allah.

A person should be free to choose to wear whatever they like whether it makes them look like a letter box or makes their bum look big but let's stop confusing dominance and religion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			Very bad argument with no logic. You miss a crucial fact because the major difference is that these are Muslim countries where it is *their* religion and culture and you were, hopefully, a respectful guest! In addition they are not under the same security issues as the UK
		
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How is a bad argument when the post before says people havenâ€™t had experience dealing with Muslims who wear it - so I post that I have had dealings with Muslims who were it you say itâ€™s a bad argument 

Would suggest it was prob a touch more volatile in the countries I list than in the UK and security risks a damn sight higher than in this country. 

And why shouldnâ€™t they be allowed to practise their religion and practises here as long as they are not harming you , not breaking any laws and being respectful.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And *why shouldnâ€™t they be allowed to practise their religion and practises* here as long as they are not harming you , not breaking any laws and being respectful.
		
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This is the crux of the issue. Perhaps you could point out where in "their religion" the wearing of the burka or niqab is required or demanded.  The instruction is to "dress modestly" not to have to cover the face or dress like a postbox or a bank robber.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is the crux of the issue. Perhaps you could point out where in "their religion" the wearing of the burka or niqab is required or demanded.  The instruction is to "dress modestly" not to have to cover the face or dress like a postbox or a bank robber.
		
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I donâ€™t need too - it doesnâ€™t bother me and I have no issues with it , if they wish to wear a burqa because they believe thatâ€™s what their beliefs include you or any others canâ€™t tell them they are wrong - they are entitled to interpret what is said in any book in any way they wish provided no law is being broken. We are multi cultural society - always have been since the day I was born with various religions and practises and we always pride ourselves in accepting others cultures as long All respect each other and no laws are broken ( thatâ€™s a key phrase ) 

Itâ€™s an item of clothing a lady believes she is entitled to wear - then away she go , itâ€™s prob a damn sight more respectable that some of the stuff you see people wearing


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I donâ€™t need too* - it doesnâ€™t bother me and I have no issues with it , if they wish to wear a burqa because they believe thatâ€™s what their beliefs include you or any others canâ€™t tell them they are wrong - they are entitled to interpret what is said in any book in any way they wish provided no law is being broken. We are multi cultural society - always have been since the day I was born with various religions and practises and we always pride ourselves in accepting others cultures as long All respect each other and no laws are broken ( thatâ€™s a key phrase ) 

Itâ€™s an item of clothing a lady believes she is entitled to wear - then away she go , itâ€™s prob a damn sight more respectable that some of the stuff you see people wearing
		
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Which is handy for you as that instruction doesn't exist.

Do you have any issues with far right extremists covering their faces with balaclavas at right wing demos? Surely it's the right of right wing extremists to wear such garments if they so choose.

Do you have any issues with banks or petrol stations requiring motorcyclists having to remove full face helmets before entering their premises? Surely it's their right to wear what they want - after all they're just interpreting what is in the Highway Code which at the end of the day is just "what is said in any book".


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which is handy for you as that instruction doesn't exist.

Do you have any issues with far right extremists covering their faces with balaclavas at right wing demos? Surely it's the right of right wing extremists to wear such garments if they so choose.

Do you have any issues with banks or petrol stations requiring motorcyclists having to remove full face helmets before entering their premises? Surely it's their right to wear what they want - after all they're just interpreting what is in the Highway Code which at the end of the day is just "what is said in any book".
		
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Your post is just typical of posters like yourself on a forum , 

Always trying to find some sort of angle to demean or dismiss someones opinion by trying to connect some scenarios 

I couldnâ€™t care less what someone wears at a demonstration- why would I , it just an item of clothing 

And if a bank wants to put measures in place in regards ensuring a face is recognised then as long as itâ€™s legal away they go - do they require to wear a helmut whilst ridding a bike or walking ? 

Itâ€™s not illegal to wear a burqa - no one is going to harm you by wearing an item of clothing. If a lady wishes to wear one I have no problem with it at all - if offends people that much Iâ€™m sure the French will welcome you


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your post is just typical of posters like yourself on a forum , 

Always trying to find some sort of angle to demean or dismiss someones opinion by trying to connect some scenarios 

I couldnâ€™t care less what someone wears at a demonstration- why would I , it just an item of clothing 

*And if a bank wants to put measures in place in regards ensuring a face is recognised then as long as itâ€™s legal away they go - do they require to wear a helmut whilst ridding a bike or walking ?* 

Itâ€™s not illegal to wear a burqa - no one is going to harm you by wearing an item of clothing. If a lady wishes to wear one I have no problem with it at all - if offends people that much Iâ€™m sure the French will welcome you
		
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What's the basis for the discrimination against motorcyclists then Phil; if a lady can wear a burka when there's no legal requirement, why can't I wear my crash helmet?  They're a pain in the ass to carry round off the bike so leaving it on my head is really convenient.

If it's really for security then apply it to everyone :thup:


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## IanM (Aug 9, 2018)

Women should be free to wear these!  
Women should be free to NOT wear these.  
Boris should be free to say he thinks they look bloody daft!
Muslims ARE free to say, stuff what you think Boris, weâ€™ll wear them.

Nice to see axe grinders of all hues doing their nuts over it.  As ever.


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## Dellboy (Aug 9, 2018)

I think Boris was right in what he said and wouldnâ€™t mind betting the majority of the country would agree but are to afraid to say so in fear of being labelled as a racist.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If a lady wishes to wear one I have no problem with it at all
		
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My expierience of working in Arabic resident properties is that most of the women wearing them have no choice in the matter, and its the fundamentialists end of  Islam that orders it and treats the women as second rate and worth less than men.
In London you never see a muslim man walking side by side with a fully covered woman, the women are always made to walk about 10 feet behind their husbands. Hradly equality.
Simple answer would be to ban all religions.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 9, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			What's the basis for the discrimination against motorcyclists then Phil; if a lady can wear a burka when there's no legal requirement, why can't I wear my crash helmet?  They're a pain in the ass to carry round off the bike so leaving it on my head is really convenient.

If it's really for security then apply it to everyone :thup:
		
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I think in all fairness that motorcyclists have been asked to removed their helmets long before even 9/11 happened.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Your post is just typical of posters like yourself on a forum , 

Always trying to find some sort of angle to demean or dismiss someones opinion by trying to connect some scenarios 
*
I couldnâ€™t care less what someone wears at a demonstration- why would I , it just an item of clothing 

And if a bank wants to put measures in place in regards ensuring a face is recognised then as long as itâ€™s legal away they go - do they require to wear a helmut whilst ridding a bike or walking ? 

Itâ€™s not illegal to wear a burqa - no one is going to harm you by wearing an item of clothing. If a lady wishes to wear one I have no problem with it at all - if offends people that much Iâ€™m sure the French will welcome you
		
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Oh! the irony.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 9, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look Bach, if you are going to lose the plot and start throwing insults how about try to get your facts right.

1] I am 50% Welsh.
2] I never mentioned clowns but thanks for that, could also add policeman, nurse etc.
3] For the more paranoid of folk who lived through WW2, Nuns/priests etc dressed as German spies/terrorists was a big issue.


How many actual cased of Islamic dressed terrorists are real.
Links could prove if these fears are substantial of just imagined.

I used to think that you were an 'honest' poster not the case now, disappointed in you.
		
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I have lost the plot Doon because rather than just write twaddle try, and do a bit of homework when responding to someone's posts. The burglars/ murderers  that battered an Asian guy in an attempt to rob him of Â£200,000 were in an Asian area of Leicester. When they killed the jewellery shop owner, they took his keys and went into his shop dressed as a woman with a burka on, to try and protect there identity. To suggest they could dress as a nun in this instance is quite frankly ignorant.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your post is just typical of posters like yourself on a forum , 

Always trying to find some sort of angle to demean or dismiss someones opinion by trying to connect some scenarios
		
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At no point did I demean or dismiss your opinion, I simply asked you to back your opinion up with facts which you were unable to do. My most sincere apologies for trying to debate a current affairs issue on the forum. From now on I will restrict myself to using Google to try to find information to support whatever my view is or failing that will try to browbeat others to support my view as that appears to be your favoured method of interaction on the forum.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2018)

I dont like the way many Muslims dress, I have to accept they have a right to dress the way they do in this country though.  Multi Multiculturalism is a failed experiment IMO, it has created division and prevented immigrants and their descendants from integrating into regular society, many Women are treated like second class humans and will not get the opportunities of their Male counterparts.   Can you honestly see a Woman in a Burka as a Policewoman, Firefighter, Solicitor, Judge, Member of the armed services etc?  No of course not and why, it's because by and large they are forced/induced to wear a form of dress that isolates them in society.  A number of European countries have decided that wearing such headdress in certain circumstances is not suitable in their countries, my opinion is that it should not be worn in public places in the UK.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 9, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think in all fairness that motorcyclists have been asked to removed their helmets long before even 9/11 happened.
		
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I'm sure they did.  My issue is that if it is for security reasons to see my face, why don't they need to see everyone else's?  I don't have a problem with removing it, I would do out of courtesy anyway.  Just apply it across the board; helmets, hoodies, burkas, everyone show your face.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont like the way many Muslims dress, I have to accept they have a right to dress the way they do in this country though.  Multi Multiculturalism is a failed experiment IMO, it has created division and prevented immigrants and their descendants from integrating into regular society, many Women are treated like second class humans and will not get the opportunities of their Male counterparts.   Can you honestly see a Woman in a Burka as a Policewoman, Firefighter, Solicitor, Judge, Member of the armed services etc?  No of course not and why, it's because by and large they are forced/induced to wear a form of dress that isolates them in society.  A number of European countries have decided that wearing such headdress in certain circumstances is not suitable in their countries, my opinion is that it should not be worn in public places in the UK.
		
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Socket I wholeheartedly agree with what you say, I have not said that women should not be able to wear burkas. I have said that "some"people find them intimidating. That the wearing of them can lead to abuse. Other countries have had a rational discussion and banned them. For me the problem here, is that the person/Boris who has made this front page news, is probably the wrong person to of said something. Having said that, who would that right person of been.


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## gmc40 (Aug 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			I thought the UK had rules about sexism/equal opportunity.

Why would it be Ok for an employer to allow certain women to cover their faces but men and other women be denied the same facility.

If I visit certain countries they may demand certain dressing codes, why do those people who voluntarily come to the UK decide not to be bound by or respect our culture?
		
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I'm not aware of a rule against the burqa so unsure how they are "bound by" our our culture  or disrespecting it?

I get why the shouldn't be warn in banks/airports etc but other than that It doesn't bother me in the slightest, live and let live I say. 

Some people just love having someone or something to moan about. There was even a div on LBC this morning saying his 8 year old was terrified and in a terrible state after recently walking past a lady wearing a Burqa in the street. Ridiculous!


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## bobmac (Aug 10, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Having said that, who would that right person of been.
		
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Prince Phillip?


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## hors limite (Aug 10, 2018)

I think that Bojo has a perfect right to dislike the burqa and to express his dislike. However, if his ambitions stretch to be PM, he surely should have the wit to argue his position without resorting to schoolboy insults about letterboxes. Unfortunately, I don't think that his words were clumsy but were intended to appeal to the people who have the ability to make his PM dream a reality.
He seems to take pleasure in expressing himself in ways that provoke division and ill feeling. Is this what we want in a future PM?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2018)

I wonder if Johnson will head up UKIP, where his political soul seems to lie.

His ego would enjoy finally splitting the Tory party in two.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Prince Phillip?



Click to expand...

Amen to that brother &#128514;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I think that Bojo has a perfect right to dislike the burqa and to express his dislike. However, if his ambitions stretch to be PM, he surely should have the wit to argue his position without resorting to schoolboy insults about letterboxes. Unfortunately, I don't think that his words were clumsy but were intended to appeal to the people who have the ability to make his PM dream a reality.
He seems to take pleasure in expressing himself in ways that provoke division and ill feeling. Is this what we want in a future PM?
		
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By his 'jokey' comments Johnson implied he doesn't like the niqab (he wasn't talking about the burka which has no letterbox-like slot) - and that is fine - I don't feel fabulously comfortable myself.   But his expression of his dislike of the attire was framed towards the wearer - and I you do that you make it personal to users and therefore something that might upset the wearers.  If you upset an individual by making a comment about what they look like - as jokey as you 'might' have meant it to be - then it is courtesy, decency and good manners to apologise for causing the upset.  And if you do not apologise then - apart from proving yourself to being rude and clearly not a gentlemen - you can most likely expect some comeback - which is what Johnson is getting.  Why he is not apologising for what was claimed to be a throw-away jokey comment I just do not know - unless it was intended and not throw-away.

On the actual subject matter he was writing about I actually agree with him.  Many might not - but as it happens I do - but as all are saying he is entitled to express his opinion - which he has. (btw - why did he choose to write about a clearly very contentious subject at this very politically sensitive time - there was nothing in the news that had raised it as a current issue - he just chose to discuss it in his column)

So what on earth are those supportive of Johnson complaining about in respect of accusations that some (weirdly remainers are taking much blame for this) are shutting down Johnson's freedom of speech.

Nobody is doing this.  *Nobody* is saying that he should not have expressed his opinion on the wearing and/or banning of the niqib and burka in the UK.  _Some_ *are* saying that his jokey comments (not the substance of the piece) are provocative and divisive.  Well if he just apologised for a misfire of a jokey observation and for being insensitive to wearers of these modes of dress, then there would be nothing to accuse him of.  That he isn't apologising suggests that the comments actually reflect something more divisive and scheming on his part.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder if Johnson will head up UKIP, where his political soul seems to lie.

His ego would enjoy finally splitting the Tory party in two.
		
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Listening to Farage's take on this he almost seems to be hoping Johnson get's chucked out of the Tories and they join in forming a new right-wing party - UKIP being a completely busted flush.  Polls seem to suggest that there could be rather a lot of support for such a party - especially if took a fairly strong anti-islam stance.


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## drdel (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By his 'jokey' comments Johnson implied he doesn't like the niqab (he wasn't talking about the burka which has no letterbox-like slot) - and that is fine - I don't feel fabulously comfortable myself.  * But his expression of his dislike of the attire was framed towards the wearer - and I you do that you make it personal to users and therefore something that might upset the wearers. * If you upset an individual by making a comment about what they look like - as jokey as you 'might' have meant it to be - then it is courtesy, decency and good manners to apologise for causing the upset.  And if you do not apologise then - apart from proving yourself to being rude and clearly not a gentlemen - you can most likely expect some comeback - which is what Johnson is getting.  Why he is not apologising for what was claimed to be a throw-away jokey comment I just do not know - unless it was intended and not throw-away.

On the actual subject matter he was writing about I actually agree with him.  Many might not - but as it happens I do - but as all are saying he is entitled to express his opinion - which he has. (btw - why did he choose to write about a clearly very contentious subject at this very politically sensitive time - there was nothing in the news that had raised it as a current issue - he just chose to discuss it in his column)

So what on earth are those supportive of Johnson complaining about in respect of accusations that some (weirdly remainers are taking much blame for this) are shutting down Johnson's freedom of speech.

Nobody is doing this.  *Nobody* is saying that he should not have expressed his opinion on the wearing and/or banning of the niqib and burka in the UK.  _Some_ *are* saying that his jokey comments (not the substance of the piece) are provocative and divisive.  Well if he just apologised for a misfire of a jokey observation and for being insensitive to wearers of these modes of dress, then there would be nothing to accuse him of.  That he isn't apologising suggests that the comments actually reflect something more divisive and scheming on his part.
		
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Well I guess there's going to be a ban on the Scots who wear a kilt which has been the butt of jokes for decades, because it might be aimed at the wearer. 

C'mon wise up its a storm that's now being whipped up purely for political mileage


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Farage's take on this he almost seems to be hoping Johnson get's chucked out of the Tories and they join in forming a new right-wing party - UKIP being a completely busted flush.  Polls seem to suggest that there could be rather a lot of support for such a party - especially if took a fairly strong anti-islam stance.
		
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The nightmare dream team Farage & Johnson.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			Well I guess there's going to be a ban on the Scots who wear a kilt which has been the butt of jokes for decades, because it might be aimed at the wearer. 

C'mon wise up its a storm that's now being whipped up purely for political mileage
		
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Why is Johnson not simply apologising for upsetting wearers of the niqab.  Why is he not saying Sorry - that it was an off-the-cuff jokey comment that he agrees on reflection is insensitive to those who wear the niqab out of personal choice and/or of a personal reflection of their faith.  Why is he not saying that?  Why did he say it immediately before going off on holiday?  How convenient.

No.  This was premeditated and can only therefore be construed as being deliberately divisive.  And idious man that he is - he has succeeded.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2018)

Oh dear
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/06/burqa-bashing-mohammed-ahmed-mohamed-image.


Looks like old Johnson was not even original in his thinking/'joke'.

Note the date 2013.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why is Johnson not simply apologising for upsetting wearers of the niqab.  Why is he not saying Sorry - that it was an off-the-cuff jokey comment that he agrees on reflection is insensitive to those who wear the niqab out of personal choice and/or of a personal reflection of their faith.  Why is he not saying that?  Why did he say it immediately before going off on holiday?  How convenient.

No.  This was premeditated and can only therefore be construed as being deliberately divisive.  And idious man that he is - he has succeeded.
		
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Damned if he does... Damned if he doesn't...


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## bobmac (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why is Johnson not simply apologising for upsetting wearers of the niqab.  Why is he not saying Sorry - that it was an off-the-cuff jokey comment that he agrees on reflection is insensitive to those who wear the niqab out of personal choice and/or of a personal reflection of their faith.  Why is he not saying that?  Why did he say it immediately before going off on holiday?  How convenient.

No.  This was premeditated and can only therefore be construed as being deliberately divisive.  And idious man that he is - he has succeeded.
		
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Maybe he just doesn't believe in religious dogma.


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## Hobbit (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.  This was premeditated and can only therefore be construed as being deliberately divisive.  And idious man that he is - he has succeeded.
		
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Was it? You know this for sure?

Unless he has owned up to it being deliberate you are, once again, making an assumption.

Yes he's not a nice individual at all, and certainly not on my Christmas list but I find it difficult to believe he is that conniving.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The nightmare dream team Farage & Johnson.
		
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 Surely you mean Corbyn and Sturgeon.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Why is Johnson not simply apologising for upsetting wearers of the niqab.*  Why is he not saying Sorry - that it was an off-the-cuff jokey comment that he agrees on reflection is insensitive to those who wear the niqab out of personal choice and/or of a personal reflection of their faith.  Why is he not saying that?  Why did he say it immediately before going off on holiday?  How convenient.

No.  This was premeditated and can only therefore be construed as being deliberately divisive.  And idious man that he is - he has succeeded.
		
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Maybe because he thinks they look like letterboxes.


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## hors limite (Aug 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Was it? You know this for sure?

Unless he has owned up to it being deliberate you are, once again, making an assumption.

Yes he's not a nice individual at all, and certainly not on my Christmas list but I find it difficult to believe he is that conniving.
		
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 You are an avowed remainer but you are the first to take up the cudgels against a post which criticizes the "Brexit project. You don't like Boris Johnson, but you don't like SLH making assumptions about his motives. I've concluded that you like to take a contrarian position or in old fashioned terms, you like arguing for the sake of arguing. This might, of course, be an unfair assumption:rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Maybe he just doesn't believe in religious dogma.
		
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He can say that he doesn't particularly like the niqab and such forms of attire and that it makes him feel uncomfortable (I can put myself in that camp) - but he made it personal and about the women who wear the niqab.  He upset some of them - he should simply have apologised and this fuss would I suggest have been less extended.  

But he did not apologise and now refuses to (why?  if it was just a poor joke) - and the longer this has gone on it has got mangled up with the rights and wrongs of wearing these forms of clothing and debate on religious dogma is pulled in - when all he needed to say was Sorry - for making a poor joke and *needlessly *upsetting some women.  But of course that is most probably what he set out to achieve - the Bannon way.

This is no mistake - this is deliberate and divisive - he knew where discussion on what he wrote would go - and he knew that many would side with him - even forgetting that what he wrote he was against a ban - and it would not surprise me that before long Johnson flips to the other side of that argument - the side where those who have sided with him sit with wanting a ban.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Was it? You know this for sure?

Unless he has owned up to it being deliberate you are, once again, making an assumption.

Yes he's not a nice individual at all, and certainly not on my Christmas list but I find it difficult to believe he is that conniving.
		
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Of course it was premeditated - he wrote the article and would have had it reviewed.  The editor or sub-editor would have asked if he really wanted the 'jokey' observation to remain - and he would have said yes.  They would have pointed out that the observations would upset some people.  He would have said - so be it.

Before the article was published Johnson knew exactly what he was doing and knew the very likely response - therefore it was premeditated.  The fact that he has not apologised for what he could have said was a silly misjudgement - that he has said he will not apologise - and that he has run away on holiday whilst this continues and destabilises further Mrs May surely tells us all.


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## Foxholer (Aug 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Was it? You know this for sure?

Unless he has owned up to it being deliberate you are, once again, making an assumption.
...
		
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You missed out SILH's reasoning! His *conclusion* may (or may not) be wrong and there *may* be a *presumption* (a better description imo) on his part, but...


Hobbit said:



			Yes he's not a nice individual at all, and certainly not on my Christmas list but *I find it difficult to believe he is that conniving.*

Click to expand...

I'm inclined to believe he is!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			You missed out SILH's reasoning! His *conclusion* may (or may not) be wrong and there *may* be a *presumption* (a better description imo) on his part, but...


I'm inclined to believe he is!
		
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As is Iain Dale (respected journalist on the right of politics; political commentator; LBC presenter, erstwhile Conservative candidate; and firm supporter of Brexit).  Just read his commentary piece in today's *i* newspaper (very good value at 80p) - in which he says

_'Boris's latest Telegraph column...was completely undermined by his ridicule of Muslim women who wear the garment....arguably relatively harmless stuff  - but in reality quite dangerous.   I don't believe these words were written in error.  They were deliberate. They may or may not have been influenced by the odious Steve Bannon with whom (Johnson) has apparently been talking and texting...if it's true, it ought to preclude him from ever holding high office again.

Individually none of these (Johnson's historic) comments can be said to be definitively racist, when put in context.  But put together, they raise the question as to whether we have a putative Conservative leadership candidate who is deliberately blowing the kind of dog whistle that appeals to the darker nether regions of the party.  If this strategy is deliberate, it is not only disgraceful, but a huge miscalculation'_

Because - Dale suggests - MPs will never support Johnson in a leadership contest in sufficient numbers to get him through to the membership vote.  And btw Dale thinks exactly the same about Jacob Rees-Mogg.

And Dale concludes his article.

_'It's unfair to say that Boris is a politician without conviction.  He has one: that he will become the prime minister'_

Ouch!


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## Foxholer (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
Because - Dale suggests - MPs will never support Johnson in a leadership contest in sufficient numbers to get him through to the membership vote.  *And btw Dale thinks exactly the same about Jacob Rees-Mogg*.
...
		
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I'm pretty certain that Jacob Rees-Mogg has no intention of competing for PM - and that, with his 'old-style Tory' condescending attitude to any argument/point of view that doesn't match his own, it would be a mistake for the Tories to even consider him as a candidate! He is, however, as a 'single issue' spokesman, he's an extremely capable advocate for Brexit!

And an 'interesting' article by the Independent here https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-5-million-house-downing-street-a8371821.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'm pretty certain that Jacob Rees-Mogg has no intention of competing for PM - and that, with his 'old-style Tory' condescending attitude to any argument/point of view that doesn't match his own, it would be a mistake for the Tories to even consider him as a candidate! He is, however, as a 'single issue' spokesman, he's an extremely capable advocate for Brexit!

And an 'interesting' article by the Independent here https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-5-million-house-downing-street-a8371821.html

Click to expand...

Dale is very clear about Rees-Mogg - especially when he takes calls from Rees-Moggies - desperate for him to become PM.  He says that Rees-Mogg hasn't a chance - that those who might want Rees-Mogg as PM are just whistling in the wind and should forget it.

I might suggest that he only _sounds_ a capable advocate of Brexit - he talks posh, uses big words, and so must know what he is talking about.  It's a pretty sad throw-back to times when one doffed one's cap to the aristocracy - to whom you were subservient and dependent - and who always knew what was best for you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course it was premeditated - he wrote the article and would have had it reviewed.  The editor or sub-editor would have asked if he really wanted the 'jokey' observation to remain - and he would have said yes.  They would have pointed out that the observations would upset some people.  He would have said - so be it.

Before the article was published Johnson knew exactly what he was doing and knew the very likely response - therefore it was premeditated.  The fact that he has not apologised for what he could have said was a silly misjudgement - that he has said he will not apologise - and that he has run away on holiday whilst this continues and destabilises further Mrs May surely tells us all.
		
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I can't believe you actually had to write that explanation of how newspapers work.
Some folk must live in a bubble

Perhaps the editor played Johnson for the fool that he is and printed with the certain knowledge that his/her paper would receive massive publicity.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2018)

hors limite said:



			You are an avowed remainer but you are the first to take up the cudgels against a post which criticizes the "Brexit project. You don't like Boris Johnson, but you don't like SLH making assumptions about his motives. I've concluded that you like to take a contrarian position or in old fashioned terms, you like arguing for the sake of arguing. This might, of course, be an unfair assumption:rofl:
		
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If you say so Richard.

There are extreme Remainers and extreme Leavers, and then there's those that looked for a balanced argument somewhere in the middle. I don't believe the sky will fall down, nor do I believe in the land of milk and honey outside the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can't believe you actually had to write that explanation of how newspapers work.
Some folk must live in a bubble

Perhaps the editor played Johnson for the fool that he is and printed with the certain knowledge that his/her paper would receive massive publicity.
		
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I just don't know - from where I stand we are in times of complete and utter madness.  I can only hope and pray we come to ours senses...somehow - before the country is plunged into post Brexit confusion and anger with divisive politicians like Johnson and Corbyn holding sway - with their every word treated as the truth regardless of any evidence presented to the contrary.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course it was premeditated - he wrote the article and would have had it reviewed.  The editor or sub-editor would have asked if he really wanted the 'jokey' observation to remain - and he would have said yes.  They would have pointed out that the observations would upset some people.  He would have said - so be it.

Before the article was published Johnson knew exactly what he was doing and knew the very likely response - therefore it was premeditated.  The fact that he has not apologised for what he could have said was a silly misjudgement - that he has said he will not apologise - and that he has run away on holiday whilst this continues and destabilises further Mrs May surely tells us all.
		
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He may well have penned every part of it but he may have included the "letterbox" description as a tongue in cheek joke. Its a joke that's been doing the rounds for years, though in poor taste. You assume its there for maximum effect, and I don't assume it is - we could both be wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't know - from where I stand we are in times of complete and utter madness.  I can only hope and pray we come to ours senses...somehow - before the country is plunged into post Brexit confusion and anger with divisive politicians like Johnson and Corbyn holding sway - with their every word treated as the truth regardless of any evidence presented to the contrary.
		
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Great cartoon in the Scottish press this morning with May, Corbyn and Davidson cowering behind the castle walls whilst Sturgeon stands proudly on the battlements saying 'Next Question Please'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			He may well have penned every part of it but he may have included the "letterbox" description as a tongue in cheek joke. Its a joke that's been doing the rounds for years, though in poor taste. You assume its there for maximum effect, and I don't assume it is - we could both be wrong.
		
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Sorry - just no way Brian - it was not a mistake and the risk that it could be interpreted as _ridicule of Muslim women_ (quoting Iain Dale) would have been pointed out to him.  But publish and be damned - he have said - knowing full well that in _the darker nether regions of the party_ as well as that same part of the wider electorate - it would have been welcomed and praised - as indeed it has been.  

It's almost as if the main thrust of his article has been ignored and that he is advocating an anti-naqib/burka position.  And so the man builds and strengthens his position and popularity making it even harder for May or the Tory Party to castigate or censure him.

If he meant it he should never have a prominent lead role in the government of this country.  If he did not mean it - then by his incompetence and insensitivity - he should never have a prominent lead role in the government of this country.


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## IanM (Aug 11, 2018)

Publish and be dammed eh?

Get the police eh?  Oh how we laughed.... any other similar stories about?  Surely only racists would say ....


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - just no way Brian - it was not a mistake and the risk that it could be interpreted as _ridicule of Muslim women_ (quoting Iain Dale) would have been pointed out to him.  But publish and be damned - he have said - knowing full well that in _the darker nether regions of the party_ as well as that same part of the wider electorate - it would have been welcomed and praised - as indeed it has been.  

It's almost as if the main thrust of his article has been ignored and that he is advocating an anti-naqib/burka position.  And so the man builds and strengthens his position and popularity making it even harder for May or the Tory Party to castigate or censure him.

If he meant it he should never have a prominent lead role in the government of this country.  If he did not mean it - then by his incompetence and insensitivity - he should never have a prominent lead role in the government of this country.
		
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C'mon Hugh, neither of us knows for certain if he meant to insult muslim women or not. Personally, I think he's very excitable and occasionally is prone to make huge gaffs. Being a politician he doesn't know how to admit he's wrong and apologise.

What does worry me, and not just with Boris, is that there seems to be an increasing number of idiots becoming MP's/politicians. They are getting traction with the electorate, quite often with sound bite politics akin to Boris' gaffs.


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## Slime (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Before the article was published Johnson knew exactly what he was doing and knew the very likely response - therefore it was premeditated.  The fact that he has not apologised for what he could have said was a silly misjudgement - that he has said he will not apologise - and that *he has run away on holiday *whilst this continues and destabilises further Mrs May surely tells us all.
		
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Now you're just making yourself look silly.


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## hors limite (Aug 12, 2018)

Double standards/hypocrisy.Leavers have complained bitterly about being criticised as ill informed and driven by an anti immigrant agenda. In turn, they say that this criticism is insulting and makes them harden their resolve and be less likely to reconsider their position. Now that Bojo has chosen to make a perfectly valid argument but to sprinkle it with insulting comments which may upset the Muslim community, Leavers are lining up to defend his right to free speech.
Don't they see that their champion is guilty of precisely the behaviour that they, when on the receiving end, have disliked so much?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Double standards/hypocrisy.Leavers have complained bitterly about being criticised as ill informed and driven by an anti immigrant agenda. In turn, they say that this criticism is insulting and makes them harden their resolve and be less likely to reconsider their position. Now that Bojo has chosen to make a perfectly valid argument but to sprinkle it with insulting comments which may upset the Muslim community, Leavers are lining up to defend his right to free speech.
Don't they see that their champion is guilty of precisely the behaviour that they, when on the receiving end, have disliked so much?
		
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I voted leave, I haven't criticised, I don't have double standards
i haven't said this critisism is insulting, but my resolve has been hardened by the remainers moaning of the forthcoming Brexit apocolapyse.
and I don't see any comparison between Bojo and the Rammel you have said trying to compare your left hand with your right.
for the record, it seems the voters are in support of Boris, ( but no one asked me).


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			I voted leave, I haven't criticised, I don't have double standards
i haven't said this critisism is insulting, but my resolve has been hardened by the forthcoming remainers moaning of the forthcoming Brexit apocolapyse.
and I don't see any comparison between Bojo and the Rammel you have said trying to compare your left hand with your right.
for the record, it seems the voters are in support of Boris, ( but no one asked me).
		
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In a poll published today 60% of responders are in support of Boris for speaking out. However, he is still behind Theresa May in popularity, although 50% of responders don't want either of them as PM.

Bearing in mind no political party has recently polled anywhere near 50% of the votes in an election it would appear that he has support from more then just Tory supporters.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In a poll published today 60% of responders are in support of Boris for speaking out. However, he is still behind Theresa May in popularity, although 50% of responders don't want either of them as PM.

Bearing in mind no political party has recently polled anywhere near 50% of the votes in an election it would appear that he has support from more then just Tory supporters.
		
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Am a bit perplexed Hobbit, are the supporters in vote of what Boris said, or are they in support of free speech or both. listening to some on here that makes 60 % of the Joe public, ill informed, racists from all parties.  Do some support what he has said coz they want the Brexit that was promised by the Tories ( who never thought it would be voted for ). The same Tories that are making a pigs ear of it and think he could do a better job. Come what may Boris,Burka, Brexit is not getting any clearer.


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Am a bit perplexed Hobbit, are the supporters in vote of what Boris said, or are they in support of free speech or both. listening to some on here that makes 60 % of the Joe public, ill informed, racists from all parties.  Do some support what he has said coz they want the Brexit that was promised by the Tories ( who never thought it would be voted for ). The same Tories that are making a pigs ear of it and think he could do a better job. Come what may Boris,Burka, Brexit is not getting any clearer.
		
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The poll had a number of questions, including his thoughts on the naqib and in more general terms about freedom of speech. They supported his comments, and a subsequent question/response was that an even greater majority are concerned about the increasing loss of the freedom to speak out about controversial issues.

Personally, I think that if someone is going to speak out about something controversial, this being a prime example, it has to be done with sensitivity. It is a debate that should be had but I think Boris was clumsy with his throwaway comments. Its a shame really as elsewhere in the piece he speaks in support of wearers but then makes an absolute pig's ear of it. It could be argued he is actually sitting on the fence. He writes that he doesn't agree with the ban elsewhere but then makes derogatory comments.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The poll had a number of questions, including his thoughts on the naqib and in more general terms about freedom of speech. They supported his comments, and a subsequent question/response was that an even greater majority are concerned about the increasing loss of the freedom to speak out about controversial issues.

Personally, I think that if someone is going to speak out about something controversial, this being a prime example, it has to be done with sensitivity. It is a debate that should be had but I think Boris was clumsy with his throwaway comments. Its a shame really as elsewhere in the piece he speaks in support of wearers but then makes an absolute pig's ear of it. It could be argued he is actually sitting on the fence. He writes that he doesn't agree with the ban elsewhere but then makes derogatory comments.
		
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Think he sometimes overplays being the buffoon...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Double standards/hypocrisy.Leavers have complained bitterly about being criticised as ill informed and driven by an anti immigrant agenda. In turn, they say that this criticism is insulting and makes them harden their resolve and be less likely to reconsider their position. Now that Bojo has chosen to make a perfectly valid argument but to sprinkle it with insulting comments which may upset the Muslim community, Leavers are lining up to defend his right to free speech.
Don't they see that their champion is guilty of precisely the behaviour that they, when on the receiving end, have disliked so much?
		
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Spot on.
You can also add BBC bias and 'no plan B' to your double standards list.


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## IanM (Aug 12, 2018)

https://twitter.com/mralfredgarnett/status/1027967710888644608?s=21

There you go.   Guardian said it...silence.  Boris said it, faux outrage.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2018)

Ian M. I am offended. &#128514;


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Ian M. I am offended. ï˜‚
		
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You canâ€™t be offended because I am professionally offended on your behalf. I will apply for a grant from the local council to set up a support group. You may be entitled to counselling for the trauma.

IanM must be a narrow minded bigot... but wait a minute. He is now victimised. I must be professionally offended on his behalf. 

Sorry Tashy but the local council have now withdrawn your funding and you are now listed as a banned organisation.... what? Corbyn wants to invite you to tea at the House of Commons! You are oppressed?! Diane Abbott wants to know if thereâ€™s more than one Tashy... maybe several hundred?

You canâ€™t be oppressed, thereâ€™s a waiting list to get on the oppressed list. Perhaps the UN will intervene? Maybe you could invite them round with a peace keeping force but that might construed as favouritism.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You canâ€™t be offended because I am professionally offended on your behalf. I will apply for a grant from the local council to set up a support group. You may be entitled to counselling for the trauma.

IanM must be a narrow minded bigot... but wait a minute. He is now victimised. I must be professionally offended on his behalf. 

Sorry Tashy but the local council have now withdrawn your funding and you are now listed as a banned organisation.... what? Corbyn wants to invite you to tea at the House of Commons! You are oppressed?! Diane Abbott wants to know if thereâ€™s more than one Tashy... maybe several hundred?

You canâ€™t be oppressed, thereâ€™s a waiting list to get on the oppressed list. Perhaps the UN will intervene? Maybe you could invite them round with a peace keeping force but that might construed as favouritism.
		
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I was just gonna say the same thing.The  world is full of gunnas and offended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In a poll published today 60% of responders are in support of Boris for speaking out. However, he is still behind Theresa May in popularity, although 50% of responders don't want either of them as PM.

Bearing in mind no political party has recently polled anywhere near 50% of the votes in an election it would appear that he has support from more then just Tory supporters.
		
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I don't actually think that many are complaining about him speaking his mind - and all the right wing outrage about this being about the lefties and liberals wanting to restrict right wing freedom of speech is confected outrage.  The issue is about him not apologising for upsetting women who wear that attire.  We can all say what we want - that's freedom of speech - but we must accept that sometimes that might result in some comeback.  And that is what he is getting. 

So what are these 60% actually supporting?  He spoke out and said that a burka/niqab ban would not be right for the UK.  Are they supporting that?  Or are they supporting his jokey comments about the attire.  Are they supporting someone being rude and not apologising?   Johnson could easily have simply said that he found felt uncomfortable seeing women wearing the burka/niqab - and that didn't really understand why woman would chose to wear it.  And that would have been just fine and he would not have made it personal.  It's by making it personal - mocking wearers not the garment - that is his 'error'.  Except it's not an error - because his error has had exactly the divisive effect he wished.  Stirring up resentments and divisive comments against the muslim community and outrage against curtailment of freedom of speech when it is nothing of the sort.  As a very high profile politician Johnson has a responsibility to be careful about his language - he was not - he has been hugely irresponsible - all for the good of Johnson and nobody or nothing else.


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## Old Skier (Aug 12, 2018)

The 60% are most probably supporting the fact that someone has had the gonads to say something even though they may not like the way he said it.

The right/left wing are always outraged when things don't go their way and then there are those who are just outraged for the sake of being outraged and use every medium they can to display their outrage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			The 60% are most probably supporting the fact that someone has had the gonads to say something even though they may not like the way he said it.

The right/left wing are always outraged when things don't go their way and then there are those who are just outraged for the sake of being outraged and use every medium they can to display their outrage.
		
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He could easily have spoken his mind about the attire without making it personal.  I have misgivings about the burka and niqab - and do feel a bit uncomfortable with it - and so just to be clear I will say that I don't really like the burka or niqab and they makes me feel uncomfortable.  But I would not mock women who wear it, and Johnson could have just as easily have taken that approach - unless that is - by doing so he knew that he words would not have had the effect that he desired.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He could easily have spoken his mind about the attire without making it personal.  I have misgivings about the burka and niqab - and do feel a bit uncomfortable with it - and so just to be clear I will say that I don't really like the burka or niqab and they makes me feel uncomfortable.  But I would not mock women who wear it, and Johnson could have just as easily have taken that approach - unless that is - by doing so he knew that he words would not have had the effect that he desired.
		
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He said it and it's over, why keep on and on about it. IF people just left it alone it would go away.


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## User62651 (Aug 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			He said it and it's over, why keep on and on about it. IF people just left it alone it would go away.
		
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Boris is now joint favourite to be next Tory Leader (maybe PM). I dont think he wants it to go away, he's the new Farage, hero of the older right scooping up the former UKIPers. Playing a game and doing well but all about him as usual.
4.5% of the population are muslim, as many as all of Wales, 3rd and 4th generation now, not immigrants anymore. They are here because of our colonial past. Maybe Boris should think about that more carefully before opening his mouth and letting his belly rumble, worse written and proof read by his team pre-publishing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			He said it and it's over, why keep on and on about it. IF people just left it alone it would go away.
		
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Because he has *deliberately *caused upset and divisive debate as aa vehicle for building his support in the electorate and his quest to replace May as leader of the Conservative Party and to become PM.  I suggest that he quite his job as Foreign Secretary because he feared he was losing out in the early jostling for position in the race to replace her; he could not say what he knew would strike a chord with many of the electorate and Tory Party members - he could not blow the dog whistle that would have them flocking to his side.

This is not something that can just be ignored as fuss over nothing.  

If it was a 'nothing' then where was his apology for inadvertently upsetting a section of our community.  None was forthcoming and he said he wouldn't.  Why?  Because he wanted his 'misspeaking' to be seen by his target audience as nothing of the sort - and once he had them onside an apology of any sorts was out of the questions - one never being on the cards in any case.  

He knew *exactly *the reaction he'd get - he got it.  And he got the divisive debate he wanted over a subject that is frankly of not that much importance compared with the other huge issues facing the country.  That matters not a jot to Johnson.  The attire of a tiny % of the population of this country has served it's self-serving purpose.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson should be rejected by all who care about our democracy.  The 'obnoxious right' are now shouting that complaints about what he wrote is an attempt to close down their freedom of speech - they want to be able to say whatever they want abut Muslims.

And so this morning we find Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson - looking a complete mess - wearing ludicrous shorts and shirt - smugly and innocently offers tea to journalists.   Oh what a jolly plain speaking fellow.  I don't think so.  We tolerate him and pander to his every whim at our democratic peril.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because he has *deliberately *caused upset and divisive debate as aa vehicle for building his support in the electorate and his quest to replace May as leader of the Conservative Party and to become PM.  I suggest that he quite his job as Foreign Secretary because he feared he was losing out in the early jostling for position in the race to replace her; he could not say what he knew would strike a chord with many of the electorate and Tory Party members - he could not blow the dog whistle that would have them flocking to his side.

This is not something that can just be ignored as fuss over nothing.  

If it was a 'nothing' then where was his apology for inadvertently upsetting a section of our community.  None was forthcoming and he said he wouldn't.  Why?  Because he wanted his 'misspeaking' to be seen by his target audience as nothing of the sort - and once he had them onside an apology of any sorts was out of the questions - one never being on the cards in any case.  

He knew *exactly *the reaction he'd get - he got it.  And he got the divisive debate he wanted over a subject that is frankly of not that much importance compared with the other huge issues facing the country.  That matters not a jot to Johnson.  The attire of a tiny % of the population of this country has served it's self-serving purpose.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson should be rejected by all who care about our democracy.  The 'obnoxious right' are now shouting that complaints about what he wrote is an attempt to close down their freedom of speech - they want to be able to say whatever they want abut Muslims.

And so this morning we find Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson - looking a complete mess - wearing ludicrous shorts and shirt - smugly and innocently offers tea to journalists.   Oh what a jolly plain speaking fellow.  I don't think so.  We tolerate him and pander to his every whim at our democratic peril.
		
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If you are correct then it's certainly working with you. Try chilling a bit, chillaxe, don't get so rabid about things that are  tomorrow's chip paper.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If you are correct then it's certainly working with you. Try chilling a bit, chillaxe, don't get so rabid about things that are  tomorrow's chip paper.
		
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This might be - but the effect will be longer felt and so it should not be forgotten.  There are way too many obnoxious idiots out there looking for a lead and any justification for their racist tendencies.

And you are right - I might not be correct - but if that is the case then commentators from across the political spectrum - other than the likes of Farage - will also be wrong - and wrong in their very serious concerns about Johnson; where his self-serving ambitions might take us; and what that might mean for the social cohesion of our country and our democracy.  _'In Bed with Bannon'_ is a prospect that should worry us all.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This might be - but the effect will be longer felt and so it should not be forgotten.  There are way too many obnoxious idiots out there looking for a lead and any justification for their racist tendencies.

And you are right - I might not be correct - but if that is the case then commentators from across the political spectrum - other than the likes of Farage - will also be wrong - and wrong in their very serious concerns about Johnson; where his self-serving ambitions might take us; and what that might mean for the social cohesion of our country and our democracy.  _'In Bed with Bannon'_ is a prospect that should worry us all.
		
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By the shores of the gitcigumee sat SILH old and grey.


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## Hobbit (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This might be - but the effect will be longer felt and so it should not be forgotten.  There are way too many obnoxious idiots out there looking for a lead and any justification for their racist tendencies.

And you are right - I might not be correct - but if that is the case then commentators from across the political spectrum - other than the likes of Farage - will also be wrong - and wrong in their very serious concerns about Johnson; where his self-serving ambitions might take us; and what that might mean for the social cohesion of our country and our democracy.  _'In Bed with Bannon'_ is a prospect that should worry us all.
		
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You do realise that just about every politician that has spoken out against Boris has a vested interest in the outcome. The media has broadcast the news, the politicians have broadcast an opinion smothered in their own self interest.

I'm not for one minute suggesting Boris is a saint but the hysteria is deafening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

Meanwhile back in Johnson-land what does he write about today in the DT?  Well he is writing about housing.  And guess what...the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government - Jame Brokenshire - is today announcing new government initiative and funding on addressing homelessness.  Well what a coincidence,  consequently Johnson attracts attention to *his* thoughts on housing, and that will inevitably be a distraction from the governments related policy announcement.

And so we see that through the auspices of the Daily Telegraph - Johnson will, in the coming weeks and months, be setting out in his weekly column his manifesto for leadership of the Tory Party.  Meanwhile most other potential candidates are in government or the cabinet, and therefore restricted in what they might say in respect of their own views, to the government and cabinet line.

Neat trick that resignation dear ex-Foreign Secretary


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile back in Johnson-land what does he write about today in the DT?  Well he is writing about housing.  And guess what...the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government - Jame Brokenshire - is today announcing new government initiative and funding on addressing homelessness.  Well what a coincidence,  consequently Johnson attracts attention to *his* thoughts on housing, and that will inevitably be a distraction from the governments related policy announcement.

And so we see that through the auspices of the Daily Telegraph - Johnson will, in the coming weeks and months, be setting out in his weekly column his manifesto for leadership of the Tory Party.  Meanwhile most other potential candidates are in government or the cabinet, and therefore restricted in what they might say in respect of their own views, to the government and cabinet line.

Neat trick that resignation dear ex-Foreign Secretary
		
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Oops - little mistake - just heard that Brokenshire has advised that the Â£100m over 10yrs for this new initiative is not all new money - Â£50m has already been assigned.

Curious the struggle to find money to address homelessness when May's Magic Money tree found Â£1bn for the DUP.  I wonder about the difference in imperatives.

Anyway - nothing for ABdPfJ to worry about - he can say whatever he wants


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You do realise that just about every politician that has spoken out against Boris has a vested interest in the outcome. The media has broadcast the news, the politicians have broadcast an opinion smothered in their own self interest.

I'm not for one minute suggesting Boris is a saint but the hysteria is deafening.
		
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I'd suggest that where there is hysteria that should be redirected as outrage and condemnation around Johnson's scheming, divisive and self-serving 'dog-whistle' politics.  

Instead we hear complaints about a mocking attack on a vulnerable minority from the left and centre, and complaints about restrictions on free speech from the right - most especially the 'obnoxious right'.  Divided views just as he wanted - with the 'obnoxious right' lining up behind him seemingly forgetting or ignorant of the fact that his current position is against a ban.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2018)

Interesting discussion on the John Beatie wireless programme about iffy political jokes.

One split the panel ....France win the World Cup, congratulations Africa.

I though that quite clever and funny but some folks thought it was racist.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting discussion on the John Beatie wireless programme about iffy political jokes.

One split the panel ....France win the World Cup, congratulations Africa.

I though that quite clever and funny but some folks thought it was racist.
		
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Would the same be thought, said and found funny about many of the GB & NI successes on the track in the Euro Champs just finished.  I was very proud of our athletes - I fear that some will not see it that way - in fact I *know *that some will not see it that way as I have heard such views spoken.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would the same be thought, said and found funny about many of the GB & NI successes on the track in the Euro Champs just finished.  I was very proud of our athletes - I fear that some will not see it that way - in fact I *know *that some will not see it that way as I have heard such views spoken.
		
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Some will think that Tony Blair is one of the Lizard people, there will always be some people who have extreme views, in fact *I Know It *as I have heard such views spoken.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			in fact I *know *that some will not see it that way as I have heard such views spoken.
		
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Is it possible that you need to change the type of people that you are spending time with? Whether it is Brexit and extreme views on immigration, racist comments about British athletes of African decent, or any other topic you always seem to have heard these extreme views being spoken about. That would suggest that you are spending time in the company of the wrong people. :thup:


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## Sweep (Aug 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cyclist in Lycra know they look ridiculous
Golfers in Rupert Bear pants know they look silly
Morris Men know they are Morris Men

All the above are quite happy and accept that others might giggle and point.

Muslim women wearing the niqab do so in all seriousness - they are entitled to expect respect from others - not be made the butt of a senior politicians 'joke' - a joke that will be found funny by those of a certain mindset and whose favour he wishes to curry.
		
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Utter tripe.
Itâ€™s an article of clothing. End of. If we cannot say people look silly wearing certain clothing then political correctness has gone way, way too far and people like you are responsible.
Joan Rivers made entire series of satire programmes called â€œFashion Policeâ€ just saying film stars and celebrities looked silly or otherwise based on their clothing choice. Are you saying those people and their designers  whose entire self worth is based on fashion do not wear such items in all seriousness? Did I miss it? Were you professionally offended for them too?
Muslim women wearing ( or being made to wear) these garments are entitled to as much protection from ridicule as the rest of us. No more, no less. To suggest otherwise is to suggest we give some people in society preferential treatment based on their culture. Surely you of all people are not advocating that?
And btw. An MP expressing his or her opinion is something you should have learned to accept by now. Itâ€™s kind of their job.


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## User62651 (Aug 15, 2018)

BJs brother has an Afghan born muslim wife, clearly not over impressed by his sibling.
Subtle but scathing I think.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...her-raps-bigotry-of-burka-jibes-a3911186.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2018)

And so - the self-serving, deceitful liar and cheat that is Boris Johnson gradually manoeuvres himself - guided by Lynton Crosby - into position for challenging the PM to a square go.   But rather than be brave about it he wheedles and makes trouble from the side to undermine her so that he can pretend that her difficulties are nothing to do with him. 

And yet - many in this country would have this odious snake as our Prime Minister - or maybe it should be dangerous crocodile - because as we know - never smile at a crocodile; No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile; Don't be taken in by his welcome grin; He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin.  Yet many keep smiling - taken in by his welcome grin...


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## PieMan (Sep 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yet - many in this country would have this odious snake as our Prime Minister - or maybe it should be dangerous crocodile - because as we know - never smile at a crocodile; No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile; Don't be taken in by his welcome grin; He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin.  Yet many keep smiling - taken in by his welcome grin...
		
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Interesting - you could also be describing a certain Tony Blair!!


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting - you could also be describing a certain Tony Blair!!
		
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Or Jeremy Corbyn, the propaganda minister from Iran.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting - you could also be describing a certain Tony Blair!!
		
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Not interesting - just irrelevant.  I am not talking about Blair.  I am talking about someone who _would _be our PM.  Those who so accuse Blair make these accusations based upon his actions when he was PM.  Very different from supporting Johnson when in full knowledge of such traits *prior *to becoming PM. 

I suppose you think 'just Boris' his likening the PMs Chequers Proposal as a _*suicide belt around Britain's constitution with the detonator in Barnier's hand.*_  That is disgusting language and straight out of the Steve Bannon / Trump playbook - say the most outrageous things and blow the loudest dog whistle to those who are of such a mind - and in the readers of The Sunday Mail he thinks that he finds them.  And in that readership there is such a strong Tory membership the Tory party might feel they cannot castigate Johnson for this.

And so already we find such Andrew Bridgen excusing and indeed supporting Johnson as calling his words 'calling truth to power'  Utterly appalling.  Johnson should not get within sniffing distance of Number10 and Bridgen's constituents should be appalled.


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## PieMan (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not interesting - just irrelevant.
		
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Ah, just like nearly every one of your posts on this and the Brexit thread!! ðŸ˜‰


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2018)

I know that Scottish Nationalists and United Ireland supporters are desperately hoping that Johnson is chosen by a faction of the Conservative Party to be it's new leader and 'unelected' PM.


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## User62651 (Sep 10, 2018)

Not entirely sure what Boris is doing, seems like he is being advised to say shocking things so as to get headlines, doesn't matter if they are good or bad headlines just publicity. Some say it's deflection from the divorce case where he is to be listed as an adulterer by his fed up soon to be ex mrs, others say he just says what needs saying.
The suicide vest analogy just seems too much though, even for him.
Apparently if he forced and then won a leadership battle, enough tory MPs would quit so he had no parliamentary majority, couldn't govern, he really is marmite. Dont think he's helped himself last few days tbh.
Seems true he does knock May's plans but comes up with little in terms of his own ideas or options. Just winging it to become PM any way possible.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Not entirely sure what Boris is doing, seems like he is being advised to say shocking things so as to get headlines, doesn't matter if they are good or bad headlines just publicity. Some say it's deflection from the divorce case where he is to be listed as an adulterer by his fed up soon to be ex mrs, others say he just says what needs saying.
The suicide vest analogy just seems too much though, even for him.
Apparently if he forced and then won a leadership battle, enough tory MPs would quit so he had no parliamentary majority, couldn't govern, he really is marmite. Dont think he's helped himself last few days tbh.
Seems true he does knock May's plans but comes up with little in terms of his own ideas or options. Just winging it to become PM any way possible.
		
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I think his analogy is quite good. It will of course offend those looking to be offended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think his analogy is quite good. It will of course offend those looking to be offended.
		
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It is a disgraceful analogy - utterly crass and inflammatory - aimed simply and those who think it's spot on - conflating Brexit with anti-Islam feelings held by a certain sector of the UK electorate.  And this is especially so given the direct implication is that it is May who has personally wrapped that suicide vest around the UK constitution in the way that the suicide bomber rarely works alone.

If he had so wished Johnson could have chosen many other analogies - how about _May's Chequers proposal has Barnier able to pull the rug out from under the UK Constitution_

And yet some think that the language out of Johnson is OK.  Unbelievable.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think his analogy is quite good. It will of course offend those looking to be offended.
		
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I agree!

@SILH. Seems to me that you are trying to *interpret* his analogy rather than just accepting it as an analogy!

Doesn't alter the fact that I think he's an odious, self-promoting pillock!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Ah, just like nearly every one of your posts on this and the Brexit thread!! ðŸ˜‰
		
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I thank you - but I am afraid that I ignore personal attacks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I agree!

@SILH. Seems to me that you are trying to *interpret* his analogy rather than just accepting it as an analogy!

Doesn't alter the fact that I think he's an odious, self-promoting pillock!
		
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Of course I am - he said this deliberately - it is a disgraceful analogy and he could have used many more without conflating Brexit and terrorism.

I believe that he is doing this to curry favour with a section of the Tory Party Membership - a section that makes it difficult for him to seriously castigated and rebuked by the Leadership and those Tory Party MPs who might face deselection by their local party if they speak out against him.  

It is the Steve Bannon playbook for Trump.  And look where the US is with Trump.  Trump can say whatever he wants and 35% of the US electorate still support him as they have been led into believing that he does little wrong - and what he does do wrong is excusable.


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## PieMan (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thank you - but I am afraid that I ignore personal attacks
		
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We'll you didn't as you responded! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€

Sorry - I'm in a mischievous mood! Just ignore this and carry on as you were.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

PieMan said:



			We'll you didn't as you responded! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€

Sorry - I'm in a mischievous mood! Just ignore this and carry on as you were.
		
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tis OK...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is a disgraceful analogy - utterly crass and inflammatory - aimed simply and those who think it's spot on - conflating Brexit with anti-Islam feelings held by a certain sector of the UK electorate.  And this is especially so given the direct implication is that it is May who has personally wrapped that suicide vest around the UK constitution in the way that the suicide bomber rarely works alone.

If he had so wished Johnson could have chosen many other analogies - how about _May's Chequers proposal has Barnier able to pull the rug out from under the UK Constitution_

And yet some think that the language out of Johnson is OK.  Unbelievable.
		
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Seek and you will find


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Seek and you will find
		
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Find what? - do you agree with what Johnson has said?


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## User62651 (Oct 2, 2018)

So Boris is all over the media for running (wobbling) in a wheat field in order, it is said, to directly take the mickey out of May in the middle of the Tory Conference, ref her naughtiest thing she ever did was running in a wheat field quote.

What's the views on this?
When is an official tilt at leadership coming - at conference or somewhere down the line?
Clearly a loose cannon but the media always give him the platform, despite the fact he's just a backbencher. That's very annoying.

Will it work in his favour? Think with everyone he amuses with controversial quotes or silly japes like this he annoys someone else in his own party intensely. Could he really get enough support in a leadership battle with the way the 1922 run it? Numbers would suggest no but stranger things have happened.

I just can't get to to like the guy, I dont think he has the credentials to be a good PM and whilst popular with large sections of Tory support would be terrible for the unity or disunity of the UK....imho. Hoping he does make a pitch for PM and fails miserably, just get him out of the picture please.


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## Dellboy (Oct 2, 2018)

Great speech today from Bojo, Mrs Mays not happy with it so thatâ€™s a plus.

He got many standing ovations today and then a wee while later all Mrs May got was people booing, surely she will soon see the light and Chuck Chequers, it will not work, the EU are against it ( as with everything else) the DUP wonâ€™t back it as it stands and 40+ of her own side will not back it.

I voted for the government and really thought she would do a good job for the country, but she is just now making herself look stupid, for the good of the country and for the good of Brexit itâ€™s time to let someone else take over, not sure if Bojo is the right choice but if it came down to her or him, he would get my vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2018)

Currently watching BBC News Channel and seeing and listening to Johnson talking - albeit very unconvincingly - total tripe, and getting hammered left right and centre.  Just been clobbered from behind by a rather angry Tory colleague.  And he is not looking or sounding very good at all.  What a hoot. I think he is going to be continuing with this waffle for a good while yet.  And to think this guy could be PM and led the Leave troops to victory - before walking away.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Thank goodness you are not watching HoC TV.
He is waffling more rubbish than a drunk Saturday night Con Club bore.
Amateur night in the big hoose.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank goodness you are not watching HoC TV.
He is waffling more rubbish than a drunk Saturday night Con Club bore.
Amateur night in the big hoose.
		
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I think I was watching same news feed from the HoC - it was actually painful listening to him when reflecting what he has been about these last two years i.e himself.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I was watching same news feed from the HoC - it was actually painful listening to him when reflecting what he has been about these last two years i.e himself.
		
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You of course would be able to associate with that.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Currently watching BBC News Channel and seeing and listening to Johnson talking - albeit very unconvincingly - total tripe, and getting hammered left right and centre.  Just been clobbered from behind by a rather angry Tory colleague.  And he is not looking or sounding very good at all.  What a hoot. I think he is going to be continuing with this waffle for a good while yet.  And to think this guy could be PM and led the Leave troops to victory - before walking away.
		
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And at that point the House more than half empty. Very disappointed in Corbyn. He spent most of his time on domestic issues like eduction and policing. The debate was supposed to be about the Deal.

Best I've seen May perform by some margin. Unfortunately she has very few friends.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I was watching same news feed from the HoC - it was actually painful listening to him when reflecting what he has been about these last two years i.e himself.
		
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Same here, his bubble has been well and truly pricked.
I can never understand how many 'normal' folk were fooled by his smoke and mirrors politics


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## Beezerk (Dec 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And at that point the House more than half empty. Very disappointed in Corbyn. He spent most of his time on domestic issues like eduction and policing. The debate was supposed to be about the Deal.

Best I've seen May perform by some margin. Unfortunately she has very few friends.
		
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It was always going to be sound byte central Brian, do you honestly believe that lot can have a serious debate without resorting to points scoring.
Funny how BJ came across ok on the bbc this morning with edited highlights of his speech ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			It was always going to be sound byte central Brian, do you honestly believe that lot can have a serious debate without resorting to points scoring.
*Funny how BJ came across ok on the bbc this morning with edited highlights of his speech *ðŸ˜‚
		
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Typical left-wing anti-Brexit BBC bias.

BTW - I also listened to Dame Margaret Beckett's speech around 9pm - boy was she authoritative and on the money.  Calm, clear, logical and lucid - everything that Johnson wasn't.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Typical left-wing anti-Brexit BBC bias.

BTW - I also listened to Dame Margaret Beckett's speech around 9pm - boy was she authoritative and on the money.  Calm, clear, logical and lucid - everything that Johnson wasn't.
		
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Or to translate that post, "I disagree with and don't like Boris but Margaret Beckett has similar views to mine so I'll praise her"


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Typical left-wing anti-Brexit BBC bias.

BTW - I also listened to Dame Margaret Beckett's speech around 9pm - boy was she authoritative and on the money.  Calm, clear, logical and lucid - everything that Johnson wasn't.
		
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I thought Beckett was excellent. A true states person. Had my first long taste of James Oâ€™Brien this morning, stuck in a cab in central London. What an arrogant, condescending a-hole. His I told you so attitude of what would happen in Parliament yesterday was incredible. How did he know that yesterday was even going to happen 2 years ago? 

Some of his early piece was good but as he warmed up...Farage in Remain clothing. Appalling.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I thought Beckett was excellent. A true states person. Had my first long taste of James Oâ€™Brien this morning, stuck in a cab in central London. What an arrogant, condescending a-hole. His I told you so attitude of what would happen in Parliament yesterday was incredible. How did he know that yesterday was even going to happen 2 years ago?

Some of his early piece was good but as he warmed up...Farage in Remain clothing. Appalling.
		
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Yes - wasn't Beckett excellent indeed.

On O'Brien. 

You might think so - I think he is superb - striving to clarify and tell the TRUTH and bring some sanity to the discussion about Brexit.

He has strictly avoided saying _'I told you so' _(as much as he'd love to say it - and he didn't this morning other than say he's terribly tempted to) despite him predicting correctly since day 1 everything that would happen and that *has* happened.

That is why he will say_ 'none of this will come as any surprise to those of you who have been listening for the last two years'_.  As I have been. And I am not surprised.

He is damning and has no time for those who come on with an opening gambit of _'I believe that...' _- when there are *facts* that make the belief spurious - and so he aims to base what he says upon the facts as they were back then, and as they are today.  So callers will say _'You believe that...'_ and he will stop them immediately and say 'I do not _believe _that at all - I _know _that, based upon the facts...'  He will then state the facts and then he will ask the caller to support their 'belief' with some facts.  And in general they can't.  And he is relentless in pulling the rug from under their feet if they persist with their unsubstantiated beliefs.

That can be painful listening...he knows that, and that is why lead *Leavers *will not go on his show.  None of them - *ever*.  Because they know that he will expose them and their lies and deceits.  Farage did a few years ago and was exposed for the charlatan that he is - he has not been back.  They will go on Nick Ferrari or Iain Dale as they know they'll get an easy ride (more so with Ferrari than Dale - Dale I like as a reasonable and ardent Leave supporter) - but they won't go near O'Brien - none of them.  You might not like him from your brief exposure - but he is dedicating himself to exposing the liars and charlatans of Leave. That s why he quit his BBC Newsnight role.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Same here, his bubble has been well and truly pricked.
I can never understand how many 'normal' folk were fooled by his smoke and mirrors politics
		
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All the 'normal' folk I know use their own nous on which way to vote.... Not feeling the need of the BS delivered by the political classes.. Might be different in your neck of the woods mind...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

Maragar


MegaSteve said:



			All the 'normal' folk I know use their own nous on which way to vote.... Not feeling the need of the BS delivered by the political classes.. Might be different in your neck of the woods mind...
		
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Well maybe that is why we are in the mess we are in - they don't read or listen to any informed comment - they just make it up according to how they feel...well that's great.  But frankly I do not believe you because in my circles we try and get informed. 

Maybe they should try listening to such as Margaret Beckett on Shelagh Fogerty at the moment.  Loving that Beckett has just told Shelagh that Prime Minister May is lying to the British public in pretending that the deal delivers Brexit and that, if she is supported, then all will be tickety-boo.  As Beckett said - she can't say that in the HoC but she can say it on the radio.


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## drdel (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Typical left-wing anti-Brexit BBC bias.

BTW - I also listened to Dame Margaret Beckett's speech around 9pm - boy was she authoritative and on the money.  Calm, clear, logical and lucid - everything that Johnson wasn't.
		
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Good orator but several of her facts were out of date and factually incorrect.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maragar


Well maybe that is why we are in the mess we are in - they don't read or listen to any informed comment - they just make it up according to how they feel...well that's great.  But frankly I do not believe you because in my circles we try and get informed.

Maybe they should try listening to such as Margaret Beckett on Shelagh Fogerty at the moment.  Loving that Beckett has just told Shelagh that Prime Minister May is lying to the British public in pretending that the deal delivers Brexit and that, if she is supported, then all will be tickety-boo.  As Beckett said - she can't say that in the HoC but she can say it on the radio.
		
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What? Like the 'informed' comment telling us house values would plummet and we'd all be three grand out of pocket...

And, the tool Cable still trying to lay the blame with the old!

Folk, in general, had made their minds up long before the campaigning started...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

...and I should add in respect of who has listened to what on the EU - the whole Brexit vote and the attitude of voters when voting has been shaped and formed in an environment of mistrust and actual hatred of the EU that the right wing press had sown over the preceding three decades.  

And so whilst many Leave voters may claim to have not been listening to 'experts' in the lead-up to the vote, and that they had formed their own opinion, many would - I suggest - have formed that opinion whilst listening to and reading what was written and reported in such as the Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph  - with Johnson at the forefront of this throughout spouting his toxic nonsense...

We are where we are - and Johnson continues to spout his nonsensical waffle - as we could all have seen and heard if we were interested - last night in the HoC.  

I wonder how many 'Boris lovers' will have watched that - and of those who did how many would have thought - what a marvellous, coherent and inspiring orator...I will follow him through thick and thin though it may well make me poorer and possibly destitute as he is a born leader and I believe him and in him.

His abject performance and the hammering he took from all and sundry should be required viewing.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I should add in respect of who has listened to what on the EU - the whole Brexit vote and the attitude of voters when voting has been shaped and formed in an environment of mistrust and actual hatred of the EU that the right wing press had sown over the preceding three decades. 

And so whilst many Leave voters may claim to have not been listening to 'experts' in the lead-up to the vote, and that they had formed their own opinion, many would - I suggest - have formed that opinion whilst listening to and reading what was written and reported in such as the Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph  - with Johnson at the forefront of this throughout spouting his toxic nonsense...

We are where we are - and Johnson continues to spout his nonsensical waffle - as we could all have seen and heard if we were interested - last night in the HoC. 

I wonder how many 'Boris lovers' will have watched that - and of those who did how many would have thought - what a marvellous, coherent and inspiring orator...I will follow him through thick and thin though it may well make me poorer and possibly destitute as he is a born leader and I believe him and in him.

His abject performance and the hammering he took from all and sundry should be required viewing.
		
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The only person that loves Boris is Boris himself...

And, as Boris changed sides at the last minute would suggest most would've decided their voting intention way before he indicated his intensions...


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - wasn't Beckett excellent indeed.

On O'Brien.

You might think so - I think he is superb - striving to clarify and tell the TRUTH and bring some sanity to the discussion about Brexit.
		
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A zealot wouldnâ€™t find another zealot extreme, nor would they see the wood for the trees.

I agree with a lot of what he was saying but Iâ€™ll say it again. Heâ€™s arrogant and condescending. He skirted around calling all Leavers thick, but had no trouble calling them gullible. That is arrogant and condescending. He doesnâ€™t know every single Leaver, and I dare say he hasnâ€™t had every single Leave expert on the radio.

No doubt he makes mincemeat out of the vast majority he has on, but that doesnâ€™t make him right. His comments on sovereignty were poor. He continued to spout that there had been no loss of sovereignty. Perhaps he can explain why the U.K. has lost 85% of the objections itâ€™s put in about EU laws. The U.K. didnâ€™t want those laws, either in their entirety or wanted amendments. The EU said â€œno.â€ = loss of sovereignty.

Thereâ€™s far better, evenly balanced Remainers out there who are well worth a listen. He does nothing to bridge the divide thatâ€™s there. Heâ€™s exactly the person we donâ€™t need if weâ€™re to heal the divisions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The only person that loves Boris is Boris himself...

And, as Boris changed sides at the last minute would suggest most would've decided their voting intention way before he indicated his intensions...
		
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Point is - Boris had been spouting anti-EU nonsense for many years.  That he self-declared to be 'on-the-fence' when the referendum was triggered is a rather sad joke as it was he and his right wing elitist-billionaire-owned press anti-EU colleagues who had laid out and fertilised the landscape in which anti-EU feelings festered and grew among the electorate - without any of us really having a clear understanding of the EU one way or the other.  

But the perceptions in the electorate were formed over these three decades, and until a few of the main culprits actually come clean about their lies and deceptions we are stuck with an angry mess.  However leopards can change...witness the change of tack of the *Daily Mail* under the new editor.  Quentin Letts doesn't like it and so has left - I wonder what that rags more rabidly anti-EU readers think...though I suspect that they won't change their mind unless or until the likes of Johnson speaks some truths,  but *he *wont - as it's still all about Johnson. 

Johnson's performance in the HoC yesterday was, in my eyes and to my ears, utterly lamentable - and yet it is he who many would still have leading this country to never-never land.  And very few of them I suggest will have watched.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Point is - Boris had been spouting anti-EU nonsense for many years.  That he self-declared to be 'on-the-fence' when the referendum was triggered is a rather sad joke as it was he and his right wing elitist-billionaire-owned press anti-EU colleagues who had laid out and fertilised the landscape in which anti-EU feelings festered and grew among the electorate - without any of us really having a clear understanding of the EU one way or the other. 

But the perceptions in the electorate were formed over these three decades, and until a few of the main culprits actually come clean about their lies and deceptions we are stuck with an angry mess.  However leopards can change...witness the change of tack of the *Daily Mail* under the new editor.  Quentin Letts doesn't like it and so has left - I wonder what that rags more rabidly anti-EU readers think...though I suspect that they won't change their mind unless or until the likes of Johnson speaks some truths,  but *he *wont - as it's still all about Johnson.

Johnson's performance in the HoC yesterday was, in my eyes and to my ears, utterly lamentable - and yet it is he who many would still have leading this country to never-never land.  And very few of them I suggest will have watched.
		
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Like you, I think Boris is extremely poor to put it mildly. But I have no problem with others liking him. They are right in their eyes because its about opinions. And those opinions and beliefs they have are 100% right in what they want. 

Some will like Corbyn, others won't. Some will like May, others would prefer Rees-Mogg or Johnson. All are right. Politics in this country seems to be about constantly dissing the opposition. Why isn't about the great messages and having people choose something because its good rather than choosing something because the other is bad.... probably very poorly worded.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			All the 'normal' folk I know use their own nous on which way to vote.... Not feeling the need of the BS delivered by the political classes.. Might be different in your neck of the woods mind...
		
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Keep talking steve. You have my attention. The bottom line with the shower of crap that is Brexit, is that people of both remain or leave used there own " nous". Some folk won't have that. Everyone that voted Brexit was lied to. That's what remainers would have us to believe. Leaving the EU was the people's choice. The remainers have said all along this is not what we voted for, eg, falling value of Â£, loss of trade, loss of jobs etc etc etc. What we never voted for was May selling this country down the river. The shower of shit that are trying to get through a rubbish deal. What really worries me is that the more May and the Tories screw up this deal. The more that Corbyn and his thick as pig muck allies ie Diane Abbot have chance of choosing the wallpaper in No10. Then the remainers will really know what it's like to be up to the neck in the smelly stuff. I know we follow the USA in lot of things, but the Yanks had it easy in choosing between Clinton and Trump. When the next General election comes along I am going on holiday.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

Just switched to HoC TV and some Labour MP is pratting on about the war.
The one that started nearly 70 years ago.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just switched to HoC TV and some Labour MP is pratting on about the war.
The one that started nearly 70 years ago.
		
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One was pratting on about the empire and slavery last night?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Point is - Boris had been spouting anti-EU nonsense for many years.  That he self-declared to be 'on-the-fence' when the referendum was triggered is a rather sad joke as it was he and his right wing elitist-billionaire-owned press anti-EU colleagues who had laid out and fertilised the landscape in which anti-EU feelings festered and grew among the electorate - without any of us really having a clear understanding of the EU one way or the other. 

But the perceptions in the electorate were formed over these three decades, and until a few of the main culprits actually come clean about their lies and deceptions we are stuck with an angry mess.  However leopards can change...witness the change of tack of the *Daily Mail* under the new editor.  Quentin Letts doesn't like it and so has left - I wonder what that rags more rabidly anti-EU readers think...though I suspect that they won't change their mind unless or until the likes of Johnson speaks some truths,  but *he *wont - as it's still all about Johnson.

Johnson's performance in the HoC yesterday was, in my eyes and to my ears, utterly lamentable - and yet it is he who many would still have leading this country to never-never land.  And very few of them I suggest will have watched.
		
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bigot
/ËˆbÉªÉ¡É™t/
_noun_


a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

Pro Zach said:



			bigot
/ËˆbÉªÉ¡É™t/
_noun_


a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions


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If the bigot accusation is directed at me please withdraw it.  If it is directed at Johnson then that is your opinion.  I might not agree.

Being intolerant of someone's views when you consider these views to be duplicitous, misleading and lies is not being a bigot.  When I hear any one individual spouting such stuff and the self-serving stuff we hear from Johnson, then I have difficulty loving him and praying for him.  But I know that have to.  Bleedin' nuisance that...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A zealot wouldnâ€™t find another zealot extreme, nor would they see the wood for the trees.

I agree with a lot of what he was saying but Iâ€™ll say it again. Heâ€™s arrogant and condescending. He skirted around calling all Leavers thick, but had no trouble calling them gullible. That is arrogant and condescending. He doesnâ€™t know every single Leaver, and I dare say he hasnâ€™t had every single Leave expert on the radio.

No doubt he makes mincemeat out of the vast majority he has on, but that doesnâ€™t make him right. His comments on sovereignty were poor. He continued to spout that there had been no loss of sovereignty. Perhaps he can explain why the U.K. has lost 85% of the objections itâ€™s put in about EU laws. The U.K. didnâ€™t want those laws, either in their entirety or wanted amendments. The EU said â€œno.â€ = loss of sovereignty.

Thereâ€™s far better, evenly balanced Remainers out there who are well worth a listen. He does nothing to bridge the divide thatâ€™s there. Heâ€™s exactly the person we donâ€™t need if weâ€™re to heal the divisions.
		
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If you were listening just now you'd have heard a conversation JO'B had with an ardent Leaver - who when asked of a significant benefit of Leaving the caller stated the amount of money that would be saved by not having to pay translators for EU nationals getting treatment in the NHS.  JO'B asked the caller on the numbers of translators working in the NHS for EU27 nationals to back up his 'savings' claim.  The caller didn't know - but it was a lot - he claimed.  JO'B then pulled out the languages for which translators are most commonly required in the NHS.

Arabic, Bengali, Gujarati, Lithuanian, Nepalese, Panjabi, Polish, Portuguese, Turkish and Urdu. (FACT)

The caller fell silent and the call ended.

JO'B admitted that he might have made the caller feel stupid, but was not apologetic - he doesn't just do it for callers - he'll do it for anyone - and was clear that when a Leave supporter makes a statement he will ask for the evidence and then when - as here none is forthcoming - he will simply state the facts.

Meanwhile which part of the world are we going to get (and are already seeing) much greater levels of immigration from after we leave and EU immigration levels fall as is demanded? Yes indeedy - the Sub-continent (FACT)

But this stuff on the cost of translators in the NHS and it being as a result of EU immigration - and how that cost will be significantly reduced once we leave - is just the sort of stuff peddled by the Right Wing press and Johnson - and that is simply not true.  In fact the cost of translators could well go up.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile which part of the world are we going to get (and are already seeing) much greater levels of immigration from after we leave and EU immigration levels fall as is demanded? Yes indeedy - the Sub-continent (FACT)
		
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I'm not disagreeing as I don't know the recent immigration numbers but why is it a "FACT" that we are going to see much greater levels of immigration from the sub-continent after Brexit? Surely the whole point of Brexit and having an independent immigration strategy is that we can decide who comes to the UK and where they come from. If we need engineers from India then they will be allowed to come here. Equally if we need sheep farmers from New Zealand they will be allowed entry. And if we need seasonal workers from the EU countries to harvest crops then they will be allowed/encouraged to come. 

This seems a much better immigration policy than the current one, which could be described as racist as it makes it harder for some people to come to the UK while at the same time making it easier for others purely because of an accident of birth that they were born in Nigeria rather than Poland. 

Why is it a bad thing that the UK allows in those people that are needed rather than blindly accepting anyone from 27 other countries that fancies coming here?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you were listening just now you'd have heard a conversation JO'B had with an ardent Leaver - who when asked of a significant benefit of Leaving the caller stated the amount of money that would be saved by not having to pay translators for EU nationals getting treatment in the NHS.  JO'B asked the caller on the numbers of translators working in the NHS for EU27 nationals to back up his 'savings' claim.  The caller didn't know - but it was a lot - he claimed.  JO'B then pulled out the languages for which translators are most commonly required in the NHS.

Arabic, Bengali, Gujarati, Lithuanian, Nepalese, Panjabi, Polish, Portuguese, Turkish and Urdu. (FACT)

The caller fell silent and the call ended.

JO'B admitted that he might have made the caller feel stupid, but was not apologetic - he doesn't just do it for callers - he'll do it for anyone - and was clear that when a Leave supporter makes a statement he will ask for the evidence and then when - as here none is forthcoming - he will simply state the facts.

Meanwhile which part of the world are we going to get (and are already seeing) much greater levels of immigration from after we leave and EU immigration levels fall as is demanded? Yes indeedy - the Sub-continent (FACT)

But this stuff on the cost of translators in the NHS and it being as a result of EU immigration - and how that cost will be significantly reduced once we leave - is just the sort of stuff peddled by the Right Wing press and Johnson - and that is simply not true.  In fact the cost of translators could well go up.
		
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And??

Does the above prove anything of importance? Itâ€™s a bit of anecdotal evidence and thatâ€™s all. It proves a very small point in a huge issue. A pointless waste of time and oxygen.

Yesterdayâ€™s comment about all Leavers being gullible was arrogant and condescending. If heâ€™s your benchmark/hero then may God give you greater clarity of thought. Being articulate, as he is, doesnâ€™t make his opinions of good quality.

If you really want to hear a good Remainer, listen to Ken Clarke.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not disagreeing as I don't know the recent immigration numbers but why is it a "FACT" that we are going to see much greater levels of immigration from the sub-continent after Brexit? Surely the whole point of Brexit and having an independent immigration strategy is that we can decide who comes to the UK and where they come from. If we need engineers from India then they will be allowed to come here. Equally if we need sheep farmers from New Zealand they will be allowed entry. And if we need seasonal workers from the EU countries to harvest crops then they will be allowed/encouraged to come.

This seems a much better immigration policy than the current one, which could be described as racist as it makes it harder for some people to come to the UK while at the same time making it easier for others purely because of an accident of birth that they were born in Nigeria rather than Poland.

Why is it a bad thing that the UK allows in those people that are needed rather than blindly accepting anyone from 27 other countries that fancies coming here?
		
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It's a fact that in the latest figures net immigration has not changed that much (and I don't expect them to change much in the future - not exactly what May has sold in respect of her <100,000 target and expected by many of the electorate) - however the numbers of Non-EU nationals coming to the UK increased as the number of EU nationals coming has fallen.  That's just how it is.  And we know that looking forward sub-continent countries will be expecting easier access to the UK for their nationals as part of any trade deal.  But that's the future - the figures today already show a change in the EU/Non-EU balance on immigration.

I do not see it as a bad thing that there could be many more sub-continent nationals in the UK as we look into the future - no issue at all.  I suspect that unfortunately my view may not be held by some - or many - Leave voters.

BTW - Do you have stats that suggest EU27 nationals only came here because the fancied it?  The evidence that I am aware of indicates that most came here as there were jobs available, and that these jobs paid more than they'd get at home - also that most EU27 nationals in the UK worked and contributed to the tax take - contributing more to the state coffers than they took from it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And??

Does the above prove anything of importance? Itâ€™s a bit of anecdotal evidence and thatâ€™s all. It proves a very small point in a huge issue. A pointless waste of time and oxygen.

Yesterdayâ€™s comment about all Leavers being gullible was arrogant and condescending. If heâ€™s your benchmark/hero then may God give you greater clarity of thought. Being articulate, as he is, doesnâ€™t make his opinions of good quality.

If you really want to hear a good Remainer, listen to Ken Clarke.
		
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No - it *proves *nothing - I simply present it as an example of what you have said that you don't like in JO'B - when in fact all he is doing is looking to debunk the myths and lies spread by such as Johnson.  He does not blame those such as the caller for believing these myths and lies.  And as far as 'gullible' comment.  He only states that in the context of the toxic anti-EU set out by the Right-wing press and such as Johnson.  With that environment established over decades it is very understandable that some will accept what is subsequently said - by such as Johnson - about how things were and how things could be.  That is all he says.  *Gullible*..._easily persuaded to believe something; credulous. _

Yes - KC is an excellent advocate of Remaining - but he is a politician...and a Remain politician at that.  

O'Brien is in the media trying to expose such as Johnson when there are many others across the board in the media who simply go along with - usually quite uncritically - or promote the stuff that Johnson spouts.


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## User62651 (Dec 6, 2018)

Johnson appears to me to have had his wings clipped. The usual bravado, humour and general jolliness seems to have left him of late, quite sombre with Kuennsberg yesterday and in recent media snips and commons imput. Dreams of PM perhaps slipping away or a re-think on tactics underway maybe. Being a backer of hard brexit won't hold him in good stead with most of his own party if a leadership contest arises. Gove has clearly changed tack over the last few months to compromise, maybe Boris will too?


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## Beezerk (Dec 6, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Johnson appears to me to have had his wings clipped. The usual bravado, humour and general jolliness seems to have left him of late, quite sombre with Kuennsberg yesterday and in recent media snips and commons imput. Dreams of PM perhaps slipping away or a re-think on tactics underway maybe. Being a backer of hard brexit won't hold him in good stead with most of his own party if a leadership contest arises. Gove has clearly changed tack over the last few months to compromise, maybe Boris will too?
		
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Or heâ€™s playing the sensible card for when he makes his move?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's a fact that in the latest figures net immigration has not changed that much (and I don't expect them to change much in the future - not exactly what May has sold in respect of her <100,000 target and expected by many of the electorate) - however the numbers of Non-EU nationals coming to the UK increased as the number of EU nationals coming has fallen.  That's just how it is.  And we know that looking forward sub-continent countries will be expecting easier access to the UK for their nationals as part of any trade deal.  But that's the future - the figures today already show a change in the EU/Non-EU balance on immigration.

I do not see it as a bad thing that there could be many more sub-continent nationals in the UK as we look into the future - no issue at all.  I suspect that unfortunately my view may not be held by some - or many - Leave voters.

BTW - Do you have stats that suggest EU27 nationals only came here because the fancied it?  The evidence that I am aware of indicates that most came here as there were jobs available, and that these jobs paid more than they'd get at home - also that most EU27 nationals in the UK worked and contributed to the tax take - contributing more to the state coffers than they took from it.
		
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I'm not disputing current levels of immigration but you have no evidence that your "FACT" that we will be getting "much more immigration" from the sub continent after Brexit is actually true? Despite you stating that it is a "FACT".

Surely by now you must understand that countries don't get exactly what they want from negotiations, the UK certainly hasn't from negotiations from the EU. So the fact that sub continent countries might want easier access for their nationals doesn't necessarily mean that they will get it. They could want each of their citizens to be given a gold Rolls Royce and a pet tiger as part of a trade deal but it seems unlikely to happen. Although if Theresa May is still in power and in overall charge of negotiations I can't see why any country negotiating with us won't get exactly what they want, especially if we maintain our current negotiating tactic of bending over and dropping our trousers every time. The rumours are that the UK negotiating team even had to provide the lube so that it was more comfortable for the EU when they rogered us senseless.

I am sure that there are some Leave voters that wanted immigration stopped. I haven't met any so can't confirm this but I know that the vast majority of them want controlled immigration not no immigration or unlimited EU immigration. I have no problem with them thinking that as it is in the best interests of any country to only allow in those that are needed.

I don't have any stats to show that EU nationals came here "only" because they fancied it and that's not what I said. But I would suggest that anyone that didn't fancy coming to the UK wouldn't come here so those that did come here did fancy it - whether that was for work, to join other family members already here or for any other reason. I didn't make any comment on whether or not those from the EU27 coming here were working or paying tax or contributing to the economy. Once again you have made a lazy assumption about a post rather than reading and responding to what the post actually said.

So here's two direct questions for you......

1. Is it possible that currently anyone from any of the other EU27 countries can move to the UK if they fancy it? (The reasons why they "fancy it" aren't important to the question it's a simple yes or no answer).

2. Isn't our current immigration policy as a member of the EU borderline racist because it discriminates against people because of where they were born?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			O'Brien is in the media trying to expose such as Johnson when there are many others across the board in the media who simply go along with - usually quite uncritically - or promote the stuff that Johnson spouts.
		
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I've never listened to James O'Brien but does he also expose those on the Remain side of the argument that have peddled lies and half truths (or as you put it exaggerated) or is he as blinkered and one-sided as you on the Brexit debate?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			1. Is it possible that currently anyone from any of the other EU27 countries can move to the UK if they fancy it? (The reasons why they "fancy it" aren't important to the question it's a simple yes or no answer).

2. Isn't our current immigration policy as a member of the EU borderline racist because it discriminates against people because of where they were born?
		
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I donâ€™t mind giving an answer Q1, as an immigrant to Spain where the rules are the same.

1. Anyone can move. However, how long they can stay and what benefits they can access are dependent on their age, are they employed or retired. After 183 days they have a choice of either obtaining the right to reside longer or return â€˜home.â€™ When seeking the right to reside they must pass certain criteria. There is no carte Blanche right to just move over, even within the EU.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's a fact that in the latest figures net immigration has not changed that much (and I don't expect them to change much in the future - not exactly what May has sold in respect of her <100,000 target and expected by many of the electorate) - however the numbers of Non-EU nationals coming to the UK increased as the number of EU nationals coming has fallen.  That's just how it is.  And we know that looking forward sub-continent countries will be expecting easier access to the UK for their nationals as part of any trade deal.  But that's the future - the figures today already show a change in the EU/Non-EU balance on immigration.

I do not see it as a bad thing that there could be many more sub-continent nationals in the UK as we look into the future - no issue at all.  I suspect that unfortunately my view may not be held by some - or many - Leave voters.

BTW - Do you have stats that suggest EU27 nationals only came here because the fancied it?  The evidence that I am aware of indicates that most came here as there were jobs available, and that these jobs paid more than they'd get at home - also that most EU27 nationals in the UK worked and contributed to the tax take - contributing more to the state coffers than they took from it.
		
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I expect, at least in the short term, a significant decrease in the number of EU imigrants after Brexit. The ability for the 'less-skilled' to earn significantly mor in UK than at home will have been eliminated! That won't affect the need for 'highly-skilled' applicants from wherever being accepted. It will, however, have quite an effect on those industries that have been accustomed to 'cheap' labour from EU economic migrants!


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## drdel (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you were listening just now you'd have heard a conversation JO'B had with an ardent Leaver - who when asked of a significant benefit of Leaving the caller stated the amount of money that would be saved by not having to pay translators for EU nationals getting treatment in the NHS.  JO'B asked the caller on the numbers of translators working in the NHS for EU27 nationals to back up his 'savings' claim.  The caller didn't know - but it was a lot - he claimed.  JO'B then pulled out the languages for which translators are most commonly required in the NHS.

Arabic, Bengali, Gujarati, Lithuanian, Nepalese, Panjabi, Polish, Portuguese, Turkish and Urdu. (FACT)

The caller fell silent and the call ended.

JO'B admitted that he might have made the caller feel stupid, but was not apologetic - he doesn't just do it for callers - he'll do it for anyone - and was clear that when a Leave supporter makes a statement he will ask for the evidence and then when - as here none is forthcoming - he will simply state the facts.

Meanwhile which part of the world are we going to get (and are already seeing) much greater levels of immigration from after we leave and EU immigration levels fall as is demanded? Yes indeedy - the Sub-continent (FACT)

But this stuff on the cost of translators in the NHS and it being as a result of EU immigration - and how that cost will be significantly reduced once we leave - is just the sort of stuff peddled by the Right Wing press and Johnson - and that is simply not true.  In fact the cost of translators could well go up.
		
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I note that while the EU argues that translation (verbal and documents) should be part of a citizens rights -which the UK does its best to undertake - try getting a translator if you're in bother on other EU countries!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've never listened to James O'Brien but does he also expose those on the Remain side of the argument that have peddled lies and half truths (or as you put it exaggerated) or is he as blinkered and one-sided as you on the Brexit debate?
		
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He makes it clear that he has no time for the exaggerations in respect of forecasts of what might happen as made by Remain - these were wrong and very unhelpful - but he will make the point that an exaggeration of what *might happen *is not the same as a misrepresentation or lie about something that *has happened or  is known*; that the two are not equivalent. 

He will also point out that some of the possible worst predictions of the outcomes of the vote were greatly mitigated by the immediate actions of the devil incarnate aka Mark Carney - but of course these actions might not have worked.  The fact that they worked to the extent they did was, at least, in part due to the expertise and knowledge of MC - however they have not prevented the fall in the Â£ and the slowdown in growth that have both happened.

His main target these days are those who continue to peddle lies; misinformation; unrealistic promises, and false hope.  And Johnson is at the head of the queue - though the queue is not single file...


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He makes it clear that he has no time for the exaggerations in respect of forecasts of what might happen as made by Remain - these were wrong and very unhelpful - but he will make the point that an exaggeration of what *might happen *is not the same as a misrepresentation or lie about something that *has happened or  is known*; that the two are not equivalent.

He will also point out that some of the possible worst predictions of the outcomes of the vote were greatly mitigated by the immediate actions of the devil incarnate aka Mark Carney - but of course these actions might not have worked.  The fact that they worked to the extent they did was, at least, in part due to the expertise and knowledge of MC - however they have not prevented the fall in the Â£ and the slowdown in growth that have both happened.

His main target these days are those who continue to peddle lies; misinformation; unrealistic promises, and false hope.  And Johnson is at the head of the queue - though the queue is not single file...
		
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A lie; something that can convey a false impression.

The statements made by some Remain campaigners were to convey a false impression of how bad Leave would be. They were/are liars.

You are totally blind to many truths, the above being one of them. Your blind adulation to false gods does you no favours in this debate, and does no favours to healing the divisions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A lie; something that can convey a false impression.

The statements made by some Remain campaigners were to convey a false impression of how bad Leave would be. They were/are liars.

You are totally blind to many truths, the above being one of them. Your blind adulation to false gods does you no favours in this debate, and does no favours to healing the divisions.
		
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A false impression of a truth...

And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation.  Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it.  And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what.  Remain voters can just get stuffed.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A false impression of a truth...
		
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Super! 

Mine was also dictionary definition of exaggeration, not a made up definition. They lied. Play with the semantics if it makes you happy but at the end of the day the dictionary clearly states an exaggeration is a lie. 

Do you ever admit youâ€™re wrong? Clearly not.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A false impression of a truth...

*And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation.*  Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it.  And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what.  Remain voters can just get stuffed.
		
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Probably because there was very little wish for harm or division in many Leave voters minds; they simply had a different political view which they preferred.  The vast majority of the warped hatred I've seen has come from hardened Remainers like yourself, tarring all Leavers with the same brush.  It's quite pathetic really.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A false impression of a truth...

And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation.  Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it.  And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what.  Remain voters can just get stuffed.
		
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If you swap Remain for Leave it could be you saying those words. The conciliation and compromise you spoke of early in the debate has long since vanished. You have become so polarised in the debate you don't recognise how far O'Brien is from compromise and conciliation. His inflammatory description of Leavers yesterday was appalling. I don't doubt some were gullible but, equally, blanket statements and generalisations are lazy and poor. Many Leavers made their choice with their eyes wide open, and that choice based on a political choice of not wanting to be part of Europe.

And this is were O'Brien, and you, lose a huge chunk of credibility. He will be right in many respects about the outcome but his analysis of how Leavers made their choice is obnoxious.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Probably because there was very little wish for harm or division in many Leave voters minds; they simply had a different political view which they preferred.  The vast majority of the warped hatred I've seen has come from hardened Remainers like yourself, tarring all Leavers with the same brush.  It's quite pathetic really.
		
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I have absolutely no hatred of any individual or group - just despair and detestation of the lies and deceits coming out of the mouths of such as Johnson.  As I said.  The likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg are very difficult to love - but love them and pray for them I must  (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If you swap Remain for Leave it could be you saying those words. The conciliation and compromise you spoke of early in the debate has long since vanished. You have become so polarised in the debate you don't recognise how far O'Brien is from compromise and conciliation. His inflammatory description of Leavers yesterday was appalling. I don't doubt some were gullible but, equally, blanket statements and generalisations are lazy and poor. Many Leavers made their choice with their eyes wide open, and that choice based on a political choice of not wanting to be part of Europe.

And this is were O'Brien, and you, lose a huge chunk of credibility. He will be right in many respects about the outcome but *his analysis of how Leavers made their choice *is obnoxious.
		
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...is very simple.  He says they were lied to - that the lies were believed is not their fault - the toxic anti-EU environment set out by the right wing press and such as Johnson over the last three decades made these lies seem absolutely reasonable, plausible and truthful.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have absolutely no hatred of any individual or group - just despair and detestation of the lies and deceits coming out of the mouths of such as Johnson.  As I said.  The likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg are very difficult to love - but love them and pray for them I must  (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)
		
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And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?


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## User62651 (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, *if not hatred for them?*

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I dont think Mr Cameron is in any remainer's good books to be fair, generally despised now.


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## bobmac (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			but love them and pray for them I must  (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)
		
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How patronised do we all feel now, us thick atheists.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet here *your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies* told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?
		
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Sorry - that I detest the lies coming out of some mouths does not imply any hatred whatsoever.

That Remain might well have exaggerated some of their predictions of what could happen post a Leave vote is *now *rather besides the point.  Some proponents of leaving such as Johnson continue to lie - especially when spinning around the risks of No Deal.  That really matters now that we are leaving - remember...?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - that I detest the lies coming out of some mouths does not imply any hatred whatsoever.

That Remain might well have exaggerated some of their predictions of what could happen post a Leave vote is *now *rather besides the point.  Some proponents of leaving such as Johnson continue to lie - especially when spinning around the risks of No Deal.  That really matters now that we are leaving - remember...?
		
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Exaggerated or not they were still lies!

So I am left feeling can I really take any notice of the current propaganda regarding this is the only deal that'll be on the table...


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## PieMan (Dec 7, 2018)

Brilliant - Leavers all told lies. Remainers just exaggerated opinions!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## User62651 (Dec 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Brilliant - Leavers all told lies. Remainers just exaggerated opinions!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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These are the false claims (lies is a bit strong) from both sides nicely summarised -
https://www.independent.co.uk/infac...erendum-campaign-lies-fake-news-a8113381.html

I would have to say the NHS Â£350 Million saving claim was far and away the big claim that swayed voters followed by the Turkey issue (manipulated well by Farage via his infamous poster), know a few myself who were swung on that NHS point in particular. The other points are too technical for most (not all) to bother with. NHS and Turkey plays were a good tactic by Leave though as they worked and sadly people bought it.
The Remain false claims pale in comparison, Think we can all see that no matter what way we voted.....come on be honest now


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

anyone explain "opportunity cost" to me please? ... economic principles are so difficult, arent they!


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## PieMan (Dec 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			These are the false claims (lies is a bit strong) from both sides nicely summarised -
https://www.independent.co.uk/infac...erendum-campaign-lies-fake-news-a8113381.html

I would have to say the NHS Â£350 Million saving claim was far and away the big claim that swayed voters followed by the Turkey issue (manipulated well by Farage via his infamous poster), know a few myself who were swung on that NHS point in particular. The other points are too technical for most (not all) to bother with. NHS and Turkey plays were a good tactic by Leave though as they worked and sadly people bought it.
The Remain false claims pale in comparison, Think we can all see that no matter what way we voted.....come on be honest now

Click to expand...

All valid points but both sides have lied.....and some continue to do so! (Where's the FACT fella when we need him!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚)

I voted out and I am 100% comfortable with why - over 20 years of direct working with EU Commission and officials of other Member States. Not many on here can probably say that.


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## Mudball (Dec 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Brilliant - Leavers all told lies. Remainers just exaggerated opinions!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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As we now know... Lies are just 'alternate truths'..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Brilliant - Leavers all told lies. Remainers just exaggerated opinions!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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No.  Some leading Leavers told lies about things that were factually known.  Some leading Remainers seriously exaggerated what might be.  

But as we know - leading Leavers told us that everything that leading Remainers told us was all Project Fear - not to be believed.  So leavers voted not being duped by those Remain Project Fear mongers.  And still it continues today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Mudball said:



			As we now know... Lies are just 'alternate truths'..  

Click to expand...

...which is just what the likes of Johnson would have us believe.


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## PieMan (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.  Some leading Leavers told lies about things that were factually known.  Some leading Remainers seriously exaggerated what might be. 

But as we know - leading Leavers told us that everything that leading Remainers told us was all Project Fear - not to be believed.  So leavers voted not being duped by those Remain Project Fear mongers.  And still it continues today.
		
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Rubbish - both sides lied.


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## Dando (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?
		
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But the remainers didnâ€™t lie, they only exaggerated


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## Dando (Dec 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Rubbish - both sides lied.
		
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One side lied while the other exaggerated


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Both sides lied. Both sides cheated. My opinion is that one side lied and cheated more, but you know what they say about opinions.....


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

Can we try and determine exactly the point where an exaggeration to deceive the voting public actually becomes a lie?


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Can we try and determine exactly the point where an exaggeration to deceive the voting public actually becomes a lie?
		
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About 3 seconds after you win..


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - that I *detest* the lies coming out of some mouths does not imply any hatred whatsoever.

That Remain might well have exaggerated some of their predictions of what could happen post a Leave vote is *now *rather besides the point.  Some proponents of leaving such as Johnson continue to lie - especially when spinning around the risks of No Deal.  That really matters now that we are leaving - remember...?
		
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As detest is a synonym for hate, your own post rather implies that your previous one was born of hatred.  Pitiful.

As for leaving, I'll believe it when it happens.


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## PieMan (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Can we try and determine exactly the point where an exaggeration to deceive the voting public actually becomes a lie?
		
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Yep - whether you were in favour of leaving or remaining!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

However we're now getting into the realms of the Brexit thread and away from the actual purpose of this one which is a continued criticism of Boris!! ðŸ˜‰


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Yep - whether you were in favour of leaving or remaining!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

However we're now getting into the realms of the Brexit thread and away from the actual purpose of this one which is a continued criticism of Boris!! ðŸ˜‰
		
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Ok, he's a scheming, conniving, duplicitous, mouth breathing, scrotum resembling sack of bile and regret..

How's that?


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## PieMan (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, he's a scheming, conniving, duplicitous, mouth breathing, scrotum resembling sack of bile and regret..

How's that?
		
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In your opinion.

But are you lying or exaggerating? ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...is very simple.  He says they were lied to - that the lies were believed is not their fault - the toxic anti-EU environment set out by the right wing press and such as Johnson over the last three decades made these lies seem absolutely reasonable, plausible and truthful.
		
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Youâ€™ve seen the dictionary definition for exaggeration I posted up. Remain lied too.

As for the above, a perfect example of the condescension I mentioned. You are now saying the Leavers are too thick to spot a lie. Thatâ€™s arrogant too.

So you wonâ€™t accept a dictionary definition of a lie. I wonder who is gullible or the thick one here?


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, he's a scheming, conniving, duplicitous, mouth breathing, scrotum resembling sack of bile and regret..

How's that?
		
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PieMan said:



			In your opinion.

But are you lying or exaggerating? ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€
		
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Bluey always was one for understating things


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Youâ€™ve seen the dictionary definition for exaggeration I posted up. Remain lied too.

As for the above, a perfect example of the condescension I mentioned. You are now saying the Leavers are too thick to spot a lie. Thatâ€™s arrogant too.

So you wonâ€™t accept a dictionary definition of a lie. *I wonder who is gullible or the thick one here?*

Click to expand...

Probably us Brian for playing along with his wind up rather than putting him on ignore.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Probably us Brian for playing along with his wind up rather than putting him on ignore.
		
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O'Brien (as I was talking about him btw since you stated you dislike him so much) suggested that many heard and took in the stuff and tripe spouted by the right wing press and like of Johnson about the EU over many years.  And whe you hear the same stuff for decades that sets an environment in which the truth became what the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg say.  And we believe the truth do we not?  That's why O'Brien attacks Johnson and co - and NOT any group of voters.

Meanwhile Johnson apologises for not declaring Â£52,000 of income - says sorry and that's OK then.  A benefits claimant might well get sanctioned and lose his benefits.  Ah well - that's just Boris - hahaha...


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thick?  really?  You said it.  Not me...and I never even suggested it.
		
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I did, based on recent evidence and the Oxford English Dictionary. Iâ€™d like to think Iâ€™m wrong, and itâ€™s gullibility. 

We need to Remain and change the EU from within but that will be impossible whilst thereâ€™s so many EU apologists.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I did, based on recent evidence and the Oxford English Dictionary. Iâ€™d like to think Iâ€™m wrong, and itâ€™s gullibility.

We need to Remain and change the EU from within but that will be impossible whilst thereâ€™s so many EU apologists.
		
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I am not apologising for the EU - I am despairing at the continuing lies and deceit from the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and for those who will suffer most when things do not turn out as Leave has sold. Because what Leave sold is simply not deliverable.  And the poorest will suffer. Not Johnson - and as it happens not me.  Whatever the outcome will not make much difference financially to me.  And my children will most likely be fine given our situation.  But there are many who will suffer.  And for what.  Nothing.  Oh sorry - they will be able to wave their blue passport and sing Rule Brittania whilst cheering being a sovereign nation again.  Did anyone tell our Sovereign that she had got kidnapped by the EU but we're going to her her back?  The only people who will benefit from Leaving the EU will be the richest.  Top stuff.


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## bobmac (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile Johnson apologises for *not declaring Â£52,000 of income* - says sorry and that's OK then.  A benefits claimant might well get sanctioned and lose his benefits.  Ah well - that's just Boris - hahaha...
		
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You missed out a bit


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			You missed out a bit
		
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But did he lie in so doing or just exaggerate...


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			But did he lie in so doing or just exaggerate... 

Click to expand...

No, it's definitely a large porky by SILH, but as he's a Remainer that's fine...


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not apologising for the EU - I am despairing at the continuing lies and deceit from the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and for those who will suffer most when things do not turn out as Leave has sold. Because what Leave sold is simply not deliverable.  And the poorest will suffer. Not Johnson - and as it happens not me.  Whatever the outcome will not make much difference financially to me.  And my children will most likely be fine given our situation.  But there are many who will suffer.  And for what.  Nothing.  Oh sorry - they will be able to wave their blue passport and sing Rule Brittania whilst cheering being a sovereign nation again.  Did anyone tell our Sovereign that she had got kidnapped by the EU but we're going to her her back?  The only people who will benefit from Leaving the EU will be the richest.  Top stuff.
		
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And you continue to ignore the OED definition on exaggeration and lies. Remain lied. O'Brien is arrogant and condescending. If you can't see that I feel genuinely sorry for you that you lack a reasoned judgement, viewing both sides of an argument with objectivity.

We all know what may well happen when the UK leaves, not that we believe the liar that is George Osbourne - remember him. "Emergency budget," and "800,000 unemployed in the next year," and "Â£4,200 worse off by the end of the year." Of course, they were only exaggerations. Exaggerations that a Commons Select Committee and his own Treasury dept publicly called him out on. 

And we all know that the OED is no better than the Daily Mail!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

I see that Johnson seems to have abandoned his taste for a Canada super-dooper deal - and has swung full behind a No-Deal.  Now could that have anything to do with the fact that a survey of Tory party members finds a majority in favour of No Deal...

Ah the wit and wisdom of Johnson and Tory Party members (because *wanting* a _No Deal _is surely a joke) - but then again a constituency whose average age is 72 (according to the Bow Group) must have very much wisdom indeed - and just the sort of wisdom that no doubt has them looking to Johnson as their saviour,  pity the rest of the country.

https://www.bowgroup.org/news/bow-group-finds-average-age-conservative-party-member-72


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see that Johnson seems to have abandoned his taste for a Canada super-dooper deal - and has swung full behind a No-Deal.  Now could that have anything to do with the fact that a survey of Tory party members finds a majority in favour of No Deal...

Ah the wit and wisdom of Johnson and Tory Party members (because *wanting* a _No Deal _is surely a joke) - but then again a constituency whose average age is 72 (according to the Bow Group) must have very much wisdom indeed - and just the sort of wisdom that no doubt has them looking to Johnson as their saviour,  pity the rest of the country.

https://www.bowgroup.org/news/bow-group-finds-average-age-conservative-party-member-72

Click to expand...


Its just possible he realises that it is structurally impossible for the EU to 'negotiate'. As an organisation it does not have (no person) the delegated powers to 'offer' solutions they can only bat proposals back to the UK/members. Since they need to demonstrate the strength of the 'centre' to other members - this means saying No continuously.

A Boris suggested 'No Deal' would allow a set of 'clean slate' agreements and protocols that may or may not look like the Canada option but going into such a deal with a framework borrowed from a different country is not a wise move.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its just possible he realises that *it is structurally impossible for the EU to 'negotiate'. As an organisation it does not have (no person) the delegated powers to 'offer' solutions *they can only bat proposals back to the UK/members. Since they need to demonstrate the strength of the 'centre' to other members - this means saying No continuously.

A Boris suggested 'No Deal' would allow a set of 'clean slate' agreements and protocols that may or may not look like the Canada option but going into such a deal with a framework borrowed from a different country is not a wise move.
		
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yea yea yea, where as we had a crack negotiating team who were on top of things from the start, had an agreed position and maximised that for the benefit of the UK. All the EUs fault so the Daily Telegraph told me.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its just possible he realises that it is structurally impossible for the EU to 'negotiate'. As an organisation it does not have (no person) the delegated powers to 'offer' solutions they can only bat proposals back to the UK/members. Since they need to demonstrate the strength of the 'centre' to other members - this means saying No continuously.

A Boris suggested 'No Deal' would allow a set of 'clean slate' agreements and protocols that may or may not look like the Canada option but going into such a deal with a framework borrowed from a different country is not a wise move.
		
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Remind me why he has suddenly dumped Canada plus plus plus?  Has something changed in the last month - other than the news from the Tory Party membership.  And of course nothing to do with May's Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson-supporter pleasing Red Lines that have limited everyone's scope for movement and negotiation?

Johnson is a self-serving chancer of the 1st Order - as he keeps his powder dry letting other lead leavers do the heavy lifting in public at the moment - as he waits and schemes...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105787079483670533


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105787079483670533


Click to expand...

Heâ€™s not wrong though tbh............


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Heâ€™s not wrong though tbh............
		
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But there are somethings your not to say in public.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Heâ€™s not wrong though tbh............
		
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Really! Thatâ€™s an awful response!

Try telling that to the victims or the families of the victims that committed suicide.

And this from the man who wasted Â£55 Million on the Garden Bridge.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Really! Thatâ€™s an awful response!

Try telling that to the victims or the families of the victims that committed suicide.

And this from the man who wasted Â£55 Million on the Garden Bridge.
		
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I didnâ€™t say he isnâ€™t a massive hypocrite. He isnâ€™t wrong though. Yes what happened to people is awful but investigating someone when their dead is pointless and costs a blooming fortune when we are apparently skint.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I didnâ€™t say he isnâ€™t a massive hypocrite. He isnâ€™t wrong though. Yes what happened to people is awful but investigating someone when their dead is pointless and costs a blooming fortune when we are apparently skint.
		
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Just because the perpatrator is dead doesnâ€™t mean we should ignore the victims or the damage theyâ€™ve caused! What if one of these dead Pedoâ€™s was working alongside an abuser whoâ€™s still alive!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

It should be investigated. But it should not come out of police budgets. If it does, where does it end. Government money should be funding this.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just because the perpatrator is dead doesnâ€™t mean we should ignore the victims or the damage theyâ€™ve caused! What if one of these dead Pedoâ€™s was working alongside an abuser whoâ€™s still alive!
		
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If somebody is dead they can not defend themselves . In cases of he / she did this or this to me it becomes one persons word against another. The person still alives word suddenly has a massive advantage


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			It should be investigated. But it should not come out of police budgets. If it does, where does it end. Government money should be funding this.
		
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All the same money though isnâ€™t it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If somebody is dead they can not defend themselves . In cases of he / she did this or this to me it becomes one persons word against another. The person still alives word suddenly has a massive advantage
		
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Yep, thatâ€™s right, the only evidence Police ever use is verbal!

What about were people have been aware of it happening but were too scared to come forward or were threatened or evidence only came to light after the dead pedoâ€™s belongings, computers/pictures etc were found.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yep, thatâ€™s right, the only evidence Police ever use is verbal!

What about were people have been aware of it happening but were too scared to come forward or were threatened or evidence only came to light after the dead pedoâ€™s belongings, computers/pictures etc were found.
		
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The dead â€œpedoâ€ has a right to appeal as the evidence might be wrong. How many cases are won on appeal each year? A dead man canâ€™t appeal but his legacy is ruined forever 

Historic sex abuse against a living person is different story. Rolf Harris etc got what they deserved.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The dead â€œpedoâ€ has a right to appeal as the evidence might be wrong. How many cases are won on appeal each year? A dead man canâ€™t appeal but his legacy is ruined forever

Historic sex abuse against a living person is different story. Rolf Harris etc got what they deserved.
		
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So do you think they shouldnt have investigated Jimmy Saville then ? 

All those people sufffering because of what he did finally getting some sort of closure to be finally told that they werent in the wrong ?

Dead or Alive - any crime must be investigated


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The dead â€œpedoâ€ has a right to appeal as the evidence might be wrong. How many cases are won on appeal each year? A dead man canâ€™t appeal but his legacy is ruined forever

Historic sex abuse against a living person is different story. Rolf Harris etc got what they deserved.
		
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I canâ€™t work out if youâ€™re on a wind up here!

So any person whoâ€™s suffered as a child to a now dead abuser should be ignored and told to get on with their life as the abuser canâ€™t defend themselves!!

Is it any wonder abusers get away with what they do if society has your attitude to their crimes!

Regardless if the abuser is dead the Police will take every case serious and investigate, death doesnâ€™t stop there being a crime.

Should Jimmy Saville be left alone?

He had people in high places ignoring his crimes because of who he was, what about their cupability!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I canâ€™t work out if youâ€™re on a wind up here!

So any person whoâ€™s suffered as a child to a now dead abuser should be ignored and told to get on with their life as the abuser canâ€™t defend themselves!!

Is it any wonder abusers get away with what they do if society has your attitude to their crimes!

Regardless if the abuser is dead the Police will take every case serious and investigate, death doesnâ€™t stop there being a crime.

Should Jimmy Saville be left alone?

He had people in high places ignoring his crimes because of who he was, what about their cupability!
		
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Sorry but you canâ€™t claim we are skint as a nation whilst spending millions on these investigations and throwing millions at the McCann fund. Very sad ofc but there comes a limit where the gov has the stand up and say you were in the wrong to leave her alone you canâ€™t expect hand outs constantly to fund a fruitless search.

If we had more money as a nation then would be different to the cold cases as it were .. right now we have a knife epidemic.. but no itâ€™s fine letâ€™s focus on dead pedos..


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but you canâ€™t claim we are skint as a nation whilst spending millions on these investigations and throwing millions at the McCann fund. Very sad ofc but there comes a limit where the gov has the stand up and say you were in the wrong to leave her alone you canâ€™t expect hand outs constantly to fund a fruitless search.

If we had more money as a nation then would be different to the cold cases as it were .. right now we have a knife epidemic.. but no itâ€™s fine letâ€™s focus on dead pedos..
		
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Blimey 

Arent the McCanns entitled to be able to continue to search for their missing child ? And hasnt a lot of funding come from donations ?

So are you going to answer the Jimmy Savile question ?Someone who has affected a lot of peoples lives and there are current people who covered it up - should they not be investigated

They are still investigating knife crime - they havent stopped because they are looking into child abuse cases 

What about the victims ?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Blimey

Arent the McCanns entitled to be able to continue to search for their missing child ? And hasnt a lot of funding come from donations ?

So are you going to answer the Jimmy Savile question ?Someone who has affected a lot of peoples lives and there are current people who covered it up - should they not be investigated

They are still investigating knife crime - they havent stopped because they are looking into child abuse cases

What about the victims ?
		
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Whilst it is very sad the McCanns donâ€™t deserve the search money anymore. If they were a working class family they would have been locked up and had their other two kids taken off them. Nobody else has got any where near this kind of money for searches . Itâ€™s baffling 

Saville has opened up a can of worms. He hasnâ€™t been brought to justice tho at all. He is dead. regardless of what he did (which was awful) he is still dead. 

The victims have my sympathy however if they had spoken up during savilles life maybe he would have been stopped sooner? Too many people wait until somebodies dead.

Micheal Jackson is a prime example. One of those in the new programme swore under oath that nothing happened .. soon as the moneys dried up heâ€™s changed his tune.

too Many people come forward for compensation.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst it is very sad the McCanns donâ€™t deserve the search money anymore. If they were a working class family they would have been locked up and had their other two kids taken off them. Nobody else has got any where near this kind of money for searches . Itâ€™s baffling

Saville has opened up a can of worms. He hasnâ€™t been brought to justice tho at all. He is dead. regardless of what he did (which was awful) he is still dead.

The victims have my sympathy however if they had spoken up during savilles life maybe he would have been stopped sooner? Too many people wait until somebodies dead.

Micheal Jackson is a prime example. One of those in the new programme swore under oath that nothing happened .. soon as the moneys dried up heâ€™s changed his tune.

too Many people come forward for compensation.
		
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Operation Yew Tree!!!!

Educate yourself.

On the back of the initial complaint into Jimmy Saville the investigation was widened. A further 19 *living* offenders were identified and convicted.

Further to that, a number of organisations have changed their processes and procedures to incorporate better protections because of Operation Yew Tree. And all because of an investigation into a long dead peadophile.

Would you prefer, as it sounds like you would, that further investigations hadn't taken place and 19 *living* offenders were still roaming the streets?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Operation Yew Tree!!!!

Educate yourself.

On the back of the initial complaint into Jimmy Saville the investigation was widened. A further 19 *living* offenders were identified and convicted.

Further to that, a number of organisations have changed their processes and procedures to incorporate better protections because of Operation Yew Tree. And all because of an investigation into a long dead peadophile.

Would you prefer, as it sounds like you would, that further investigations hadn't taken place and 19 *living* offenders were still roaming the streets?
		
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How many are back on the streets due to very short prison sentences? Harris is a prime example

He is still super rich
He is out now


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			How many are back on the streets due to very short prison sentences? Harris is a prime example

He is still super rich
He is out now
		
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And now you're moving the goalposts.

But, as per the question at the end of my previous post, would you be happy to have 19 sex offenders not found and convicted?


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2019)

Had Cliff Richards been dead the outcome might have been entirely different. Any case involving a dead person will be extremely difficult to establish truth. 

IMO Johnson has a point in a sensitive subject even if he put it rather clumsily.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And now you're moving the goalposts.

But, as per the question at the end of my previous post, would you be happy to have 19 sex offenders not found and convicted?
		
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I think itâ€™s very dangerous how they go about it. Cliff Richards rep was ruined by this. These 19 well fantastic they found 19 more people however they ruined innocent persons life in the process


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I think itâ€™s very dangerous how they go about it. Cliff Richards rep was ruined by this. These 19 well fantastic they found 19 more people however they ruined innocent persons life in the process
		
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yewtree

Cliff Richard wasnâ€™t arrested as part of Op Yewtree - he was never arrested. The media played a big part in his issue and very much doubt his life is ruined 

But itâ€™s seems you are more worried about the potential ruined life of a celebrity as opposed to all the victims of the systematic historical sexual abuse at the hands of these celebrities- at first I thought you were on a wind up but I just think you just donâ€™t understand and have zero empathy for others. 

As Hobbit says - Educate yourself


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			All the same money though isnâ€™t it?
		
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Not even close, by a country mile it's not close.

EG, Nottinghamshire police get X million per year to police Notts. All of a sudden it has to investigate crimes from 30 years ago which have happend in Notts. That's fact. All of a sudden it has to find X millions which it has not budgeted for and does not have. Does that mean it should not be investigated. No. Does that mean we have to have less X number of coppers on the street to pay for said investigation. On top of the government saying we need more armed coppers on the street but are only paying 50% of the costs.
On a side note who is paying for the investigation into the bloody Sunday's shootings. The police?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Not even close, by a country mile it's not close.

EG, Nottinghamshire police get X million per year to police Notts. All of a sudden it has to investigate crimes from 30 years ago which have happend in Notts. That's fact. All of a sudden it has to find X millions which it has not budgeted for and does not have. Does that mean it should not be investigated. No. Does that mean we have to have less X number of coppers on the street to pay for said investigation. On top of the government saying we need more armed coppers on the street but are only paying 50% of the costs.
On a side note who is paying for the investigation into the bloody Sunday's shootings. The police?
		
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No what I meant was say if you provide the money from the gov thatâ€™s less that can go into police budgets


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No what I meant was say if you provide the money from the gov thatâ€™s less that can go into police budgets
		
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Eh, am not sure what you mean explain please.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Eh, am not sure what you mean explain please.
		
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The government for example has Â£100 to run all the departments it needs 

Letâ€™s say the police get Â£10, fire Â£10 nhs Â£20 and so on
Say we assign Â£5 to this investigation 

Isnâ€™t that Â£5 less we could provide the police budget? Ie the police budget all comes from central goverment so anything that comes out of central government is the same money


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The government for example has Â£100 to run all the departments it needs

Letâ€™s say the police get Â£10, fire Â£10 nhs Â£20 and so on
Say we assign Â£5 to this investigation

Isnâ€™t that Â£5 less we could provide the police budget? Ie the police budget all comes from central goverment so anything that comes out of central government is the same money
		
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If it's all the same money as you stated, how's it Â£5 less. You have answered your own question.No it's not, which is what I said.ðŸ‘


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			If it's all the same money as you stated, how's it Â£5 less. You have answered your own question.No it's not, which is what I said.ðŸ‘
		
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Because if you are giving Â£5 to the fund for the investigations then thatâ€™s Â£5 less available from the Â£100 you could give to the police fund..

Either way itâ€™s tax payers money being imo wasted ..


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Because if you are giving Â£5 to the fund for the investigations then thatâ€™s Â£5 less available from the Â£100 you could give to the police fund..

Either way itâ€™s tax payers money being imo wasted ..
		
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Children of yesterday have been sexually abused by politicians, sportsmen, celebrities, religious people etc. Children of yesterday were walking a minefield. To say taxpayers money is being wasted no matter which budget it comes out of quite frankly is bollox ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

There have also been some terrible accusations against people like Ted Heath and Leon Britton based on unstested evidence given by walter mitty accusers backed up by Polticians and Social Workers that have been now dismissed by the Police as having no substance.
Pity the same energy wasn't put into the grooming and sexual exploitation of young girls by gangs with Pakistani Origins  because of the concern the Police had of being labled racists.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There have also been some terrible accusations against people like Ted Heath and Leon Britton based on unstested evidence given by walter mitty accusers backed up by Polticians and Social Workers that have been now dismissed by the Police as having no substance.
Pity the same energy wasn't put into the grooming and sexual exploitation of young girls by gangs with Pakistani Origins  because of the concern the Police had of being labled racists.
		
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Here we go, typical red top nonsense. 
Embarrassing comment from a grown man.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Here we go, typical red top nonsense.
Embarrassing comment from a grown man.
		
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I know what Im talking about, I dont need red top nonsense. Rather than silly insults try showing where I am wrong, try looking into the accuser who has been exposed as a liar, look into the politician who had to stand down from his accusations when they were proven to be false, look into to the social worker who after  accusing these people of being part of a peodofile ring  based on the evidence of someone the police have now agreed was giving false evidence.   Show some proof of where my comments are wrong if you can but I know you cannot.  Put up or shutup.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I know what Im talking about, I dont need red top nonsense. Rather than silly insults try showing where I am wrong, try looking into the accuser who has been exposed as a liar, look into the politician who had to stand down from his accusations when they were proven to be false, look into to the social worker who after  accusing these people of being part of a peodofile ring  based on the evidence of someone the police have now agreed was giving false evidence.   Show some proof of where my comments are wrong if you can but I know you cannot.  Put up or shutup.
		
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Prove your comment about the Police being scared and not putting the same  energy into investigating the grooming gangs.

What were the Police meant to do when these accusations were made against Heath and Britton? Dismiss them instantly or carry out an investigation? Very easy to have a dig and play the racist card after the facts and when the 2 things are unrelated.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Prove your comment about the Police being scared and not putting the same  energy into investigating the grooming gangs.

What were the Police meant to do when these accusations were made against Heath and Britton? Dismiss them instantly or carry out an investigation? Very easy to have a dig and play the racist card after the facts and when the 2 things are unrelated.
		
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Regarding the police and Pakistani grooming gangs then you must be wearing  the kings suit of clothes if you missed that link.
I asked you to show where my comments regarding Ted Heath and Leon Britton were incorrect,  I take it from your diversion you cannot and look to your apology for making unsubstantiated defamatory comments.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding the police and Pakistani grooming gangs then you must be wearing  the kings suit of clothes if you missed that link.
I asked you to show where my comments regarding Ted Heath and Leon Britton were incorrect,  I take it from your diversion you cannot and look to your apology for making unsubstantiated defamatory comments.
		
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Youâ€™ve no chance of an apology, were did I say you were incorrect about Heath and Britton? What I said was:
Here we go, typical red top nonsense.
Embarrassing comment from a grown man.

Your comments are imflammatory and racist imo.

Answer the question on the Police, What action should they take when allegations are made? Police have said if Heath had still been alive he would of been interviewed under caution on 7 out of the 42 allegations against him, but that shouldnâ€™t been seen as anything proven.

Plenty of victims have come forward and found justice, should the Police ignore them?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™ve no chance of an apology, were did I say you were incorrect about Heath and Britton? What I said was:
Here we go, typical red top nonsense.
Embarrassing comment from a grown man.

Your comments are imflammatory and racist imo.

Answer the question on the Police, What action should they take when allegations are made? Police have said if Heath had still been alive he would of been interviewed under caution on 7 out of the 42 allegations against him, but that shouldnâ€™t been seen as anything proven.

Plenty of victims have come forward and found justice, should the Police ignore them?
		
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Take look at the attached link and remind me how they are racist: ,https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ressed-to-avoid-inflaming-racial-tension.html
Regarding what actions the police should take when allegations are made: They should investigate thoroughly the allegations and the integretory of who makes them.  In this inatance it was a complete walter mitty character who has now been proved to be  completely wrong.   If you defend such people you are indeed guilty of being an embarrassing grown man and even worse unable to own up to it.
Another link for you:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/03/vip-paedophile-accuser-nick-named-first-time-carl-beech/


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There have also been some terrible accusations against people like Ted Heath and Leon Britton based on unstested evidence given by walter mitty accusers backed up by Polticians and Social Workers that have been now dismissed by the Police as having no substance.
Pity the same energy wasn't put into the grooming and sexual exploitation of young girls by gangs with Pakistani Origins  because of the concern the Police had of being labled racists.
		
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I'm not sure you're particularly accurate with your comment on the Police being reticent in investigating grooming gangs. 27 Police forces have, or are, investigating 54 cases of grooming gangs. I've just done a quick search of "grooming gangs convicted..." What came as a surprise was the number of gangs convicted, many of which I hadn't previously seen in the news.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Take look at the attached link and remind me how they are racist: ,https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ressed-to-avoid-inflaming-racial-tension.html
Regarding what actions the police should take when allegations are made: They should investigate thoroughly the allegations and the integretory of who makes them.  In this inatance it was a complete walter mitty character who has now been proved to be  completely wrong.   If you defend such people you are indeed guilty of being an embarrassing grown man and even worse unable to own up to it.
Another link for you:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/03/vip-paedophile-accuser-nick-named-first-time-carl-beech/

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m defending the Police, Iâ€™m not defending anyone who makes false allegations, anyone making false allegations, regardless of offence, who is found to have lied AFTER a Police investigation should be charged.

This thread is about the remarks Johnson made and you brought race into it, I take it weâ€™ve never had white or English grooming gangs?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not sure you're particularly accurate with your comment on the Police being reticent in investigating grooming gangs. 27 Police forces have, or are, investigating 54 cases of grooming gangs. I've just done a quick search of "grooming gangs convicted..." What came as a surprise was the number of gangs convicted, many of which I hadn't previously seen in the news.
		
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I think you are correct. My comments were about the historical poor response which the police now agree happened.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2019)

I see the first thing that Ruth Davidson does on return from her well planned maternity leave is to ban Johnson from the Scottish Tory conference.


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## User62651 (May 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the first thing that Ruth Davidson does on return from her well planned maternity leave is to ban Johnson from the Scottish Tory conference.

Click to expand...

Nice one if that's true about Johnson, think it probably is, man actually *proved* he is a liar this morning with that retracted tweet. Pity she couldn't ask May to stay away too. Davidson does have some leadership qualities that are sadly lacking these days. I'm glad she's back in politics, like her style, don't always agree with her and she's got her work cut out if the current polling is accurate but a capable politician who absolutely rescued May in the 2017 GE debacle.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2019)

Never mind Barking Boris, his pal Michael Grove is currently addressing a crowd of 7 on future Tory agricultural policy in a cupboard at the Scots Tory conference.


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## Mudball (May 3, 2019)

Barking Boris sends and deletes his tweet..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2019)

I thought his Leadership campaign launch statement today was mostly empty and, in respect of the question language he uses, quite disgraceful - as were his MP acolytes in jeering the journalist who asked the question. That he didn't even attempt to answer 5 of the 6 questions that were asked and only vaguely accepted that he had used cocaine when he was 19 (though of course in response to another question he hasn't done anything illegal in his life other than maybe speeding.) shows us what's in store.

Steve Bannon anyone?

Anyway - I hope he wins and becomes PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2019)

Well we wonâ€™t be hearing and WoW from Johnson this evening.  Opportunity missed to put the other contenders in their place and let the electorate hear what could be on offer from a Johnson PM.


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2019)

What's the point of a TV leadership debate. I doubt if anyone on here has the opportunity to vote and those who do have already decided.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			What's the point of a TV leadership debate. I doubt if anyone on here has the opportunity to vote and those who do have already decided.
		
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Iâ€™d simply like to hear what our hero has in store for us when he is PM and get a feel for the straight talking he will put into play when negotiating with the EU on a revised deal, and with Trump when we leave with NoDeal on31/10.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Iâ€™d simply like to hear what our hero has in store for us when he is PM and get a feel for the straight talking he will put into play when negotiating with the EU on a revised deal.
		
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I think he's scheduled to take part in the next one on BBC on Tuesday (?) so maybe you'll get your wish then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think he's scheduled to take part in the next one on BBC on Tuesday (?) so maybe you'll get your wish then.
		
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Indeed he is - after the 2nd vote of MPs - though I believe he will be answering questions posed directly to him by the viewers (and audience).  So no debate with other candidates as such and I wanted t hear his debating/negotiating skills as well as his straight speaking.  I expect responses along the lines of those he gave to journalists at his campaign launch last week.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 16, 2019)

At this stage Boris just has to convince his fellow conservative MPs,  no one else. He has done hustings with them already. Once it is down to the last 2 hs then has a month to appeal to the local associations, no one else. If I was in charge of his campaign I wouldn't have him near these debates. He can't improve his position in them and all of the other candidates will be targeting him. 

He doesn't have to impress the wider public at the moment so why try, this process has nothing to do with us.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed he is - after the 2nd vote of MPs - though I believe he will be answering questions posed directly to him by the viewers (and audience).  So no debate with other candidates as such and I wanted t hear his debating/negotiating skills as well as his straight speaking.  I expect responses along the lines of those he gave to journalists at his campaign launch last week.
		
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Is the one that he's decided not to take part in a debate between candidates rather than questions from an audience?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 16, 2019)

Basically he couldn't cope with looking after London without conjuring up jobs for his mates... Believe running a country is well beyond him...


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well we wonâ€™t be hearing and WoW from Johnson this evening.  Opportunity missed to put the other contenders in their place and let the electorate hear what could be on offer from a Johnson PM.
		
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Seem to remember May using the same cloak of invisibility at the last GE. That backfired. Wouldn't be too surprised if the same tactic knocks a few points off Boris' ratings. Shame he's so far in front.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2019)

Some serious jibes made at Johnson tonight by other candidates - Hunt and Stewart having a real go at him not being there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2019)

Strange how Rory did not remind folk that Johnson once stated that a Scot should never be made Prime Minister.
Mind you Cameron's EVEL ploy virtually guaranteed that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2019)

I am waiting with bated breath to hear words of great wisdom from the mouth of our next PM this evening...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am waiting with bated breath to hear words of great wisdom from the mouth of our next PM this evening...
		
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I wait with bated breath to hear some from you


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At this stage Boris just has to convince his fellow conservative MPs,  no one else. He has done hustings with them already. Once it is down to the last 2 hs then has a month to appeal to the local associations, no one else. If I was in charge of his campaign I wouldn't have him near these debates. He can't improve his position in them and all of the other candidates will be targeting him.

He doesn't have to impress the wider public at the moment so why try, this process has nothing to do with us.
		
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This is exactly right. The rest is hot air, instigated by the media for sensational effect. 
Later, when the two candidates are through, it may have some relevance, but unless Boris Johnson loses some of the 126 votes he already has attained, then he is one of the two. He should have kept his powder dry.
This tv debate is a bit like the first day of a Major. Your performance can't win it, but it may lose it....
We shall see


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2019)

Well - I heard no words of wisdom and I heard no words of stupidity - a bit of hesitancy from time to time but OK - no big deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - I heard no words of wisdom and I heard no words of stupidity - a bit of hesitancy from time to time but OK - no big deal.
		
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Blimey SiLH are you feeling OK? Coming from you that is indeed high praise for Boris.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Blimey SiLH are you feeling OK? Coming from you that is indeed high praise for Boris. 

Click to expand...

Well he is going to be our next PM and be taking us out of the EU on 31/10 without a deal - I need to be at least vaguely hopeful from time to time as he has to make a good fist of it or many will suffer the consequences (IMO)


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well he is going to be our next PM *and be taking us out of the EU on 31/10 without a deal *- I need to be at least vaguely hopeful from time to time as he has to make a good fist of it or many will suffer the consequences (IMO)
		
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No he won't. Did you watch the clown last night?


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

Rick Moranis was the best performer last night. LOL and he told us sweet fanny adams.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No he won't. Did you watch the clown last night?
		
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I most certainly did.  And it will make not a jot off difference to what Tory Party Members vote when it comes down to A.B.deP Johnson vs A.N.Other (after all - 51% of TPMs voted Brexit Party in the EU elections, and 46% would happily have Farage as Tory party Leader - so we think we know where sit the views of *that *selectorate).

As far as 31/10?  Given a choice between leaving on 31/10 with _No Deal,_ and Farage and his lot getting into Westminster as a result of the racket that will be raised if UK does *not *leave - then stuck, between that horrid rock and a hard place, I find the former the least bad.  It has the dubious merit in that it would be absolutely clear who is responsible for whatever subsequently happens - glittering prizes in a brave new world or whatever.  And if glittering prizes are indeed forthcoming I will raise a loud huzzah as I toast the genius and leadership of PM A.B.deP Johnson.


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## jp5 (Jun 19, 2019)

Johnson has been promising everything to everyone, it'll soon all unravel.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Johnson has been promising everything to everyone, it'll soon all unravel.
		
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His constituents are still hoping he'll honour his promise of laying down in front of the diggers when they come to build the third runway...


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## patricks148 (Jun 19, 2019)

None of these Jokers fill me with confidence TBH, the wife thinks Rory the Tory buts then she is a Labour activist an not voting in this that will be all the rabid Brexiters so it won't be a surprise who we get


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2019)

Last night none of the famous five guaranteed to take us out of the EU by the Tory Party's own deadline date [the one they voted for]
No hands up when the presenter asked.


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			None of these Jokers fill me with confidence TBH, the wife thinks Rory the Tory buts then she is a Labour activist an not voting in this that will be all the rabid Brexiters so it won't be a surprise who we get

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After listening to some Tory voters commenting straight after the debate (rad 4 this morning) they were still mainly behind BJ. So what's the point of debate? Ricky Moranis won, I thought and he is pinning his hopes on his Master Plan and attacking corbin. I thought he was THE BEST prepared candidate of the lot. JH was ok too. So the Remoaners seem to have the best candidates. Will this get them over the line or are the Tory members ready to get out without a deal, which is the ONLY option?


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Last night none of the famous five guaranteed to take us out of the EU by the Tory Party's own deadline date [the one they voted for]
No hands up when the presenter asked.

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Yup saw that and commented at the time. Rory also went directly against something he was behind the previous day on Good Morning. So another one not to trust.


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## patricks148 (Jun 19, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			After listening to some Tory voters commenting straight after the debate (rad 4 this morning) they were still mainly behind BJ. So what's the point of debate? Ricky Moranis won, I thought and he is pinning his hopes on his Master Plan and attacking corbin. I thought he was THE BEST prepared candidate of the lot. JH was ok too. So the Remoaners seem to have the best candidates. Will this get them over the line or are the Tory members ready to get out without a deal, which is the ONLY option?
		
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Who are you calling Rick Moranis? not hear of that before?


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Who are you calling Rick Moranis? not hear of that before?
		
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Gove. Surely there's not only me that sees the resemblance? LOL!


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## patricks148 (Jun 19, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Gove. Surely there's not only me that sees the resemblance? LOL!
		
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no i just see a snide little toad.


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## Crazyface (Jun 19, 2019)

*Johnson to spend leadership campaign dangling from a zip-wire in Macclesfield*
 17th June 2019 









*BORIS Johnson is to spend the rest of the Tory leadership campaign suspended 40ft above an Asda car park in Macclesfield.*
The frontrunner said he will be â€˜incredibly visibleâ€™ for the next five weeks but â€˜may not be ableâ€™ to answer detailed questions about his policies or character.

A spokesman said: â€œDangling from a zip-wire while waving little flags is Boris at his best.
â€œItâ€™s what the party membership wants from him and it sends a bold, uncompromising message to the EU.
â€œHe also thinks that zip-wires are the best solution to the Irish back-stop. You canâ€™t have a hard border if itâ€™s 40ft above the ground. He wants to be sure that the zip-wires could cope with an 18-tonne lorry full of pigs.
â€œHeâ€™s also very excited about going to the toilet while dangling in mid-air.â€



Fake News!!! We don't have an ASDA !!!


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			His constituents are still hoping he'll honour his promise of laying down in front of the diggers when they come to build the third runway...
		
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iirc he went off on a meaningless trip to afghanistan at the taxpayers expense purely so he could avoid having to vote on the runway plan.

also he refused to cut short his holiday to deal with the London riots when he was mayor.

Putting political views aside, how anyone can think he has the right kind of character to lead the country is beyond me. He will be a disaster.


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## User62651 (Jun 19, 2019)

An astute comment I read on twitter was:

_*'Boris Johnson doesn't want to be PM, he wants to have been PM'.*_

I thought it rang true. He doesn't want to put the effort required into doing the job, too hard, that will all get delegated, he just wants the accolades, honour, badge and history of having been PM. 

Imagine the US after dinner speeches circuit revenues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

You say it best when you say nothing at all - and maybe - The Best is Yet to Come?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			An astute comment I read on twitter was:

_'Boris Johnson doesn't want to be PM, he wants to have been PM'._

I thought it rang true. He doesn't want to put the effort required into doing the job, too hard,* that will all get delegated,* he just wants the accolades, honour, badge and history of having been PM.

Imagine the US after dinner speeches circuit revenues.

Click to expand...

Is that actually such a bad idea? Just let Boris live at No.10 and pretend to be PM and then have all the important stuff delegated out to people who are at least a little bit more competent.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			An astute comment I read on twitter was:

_*'Boris Johnson doesn't want to be PM, he wants to have been PM'.*_

I thought it rang true. He doesn't want to put the effort required into doing the job, too hard, that will all get delegated, he just wants the accolades, honour, badge and history of having been PM.

Imagine the US after dinner speeches circuit revenues.

Click to expand...

Did he actually say that or did someone writing an editorial suggest it?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that actually such a bad idea? Just let Boris live at No.10 and pretend to be PM and then have all the important stuff delegated out to people who are at least a little bit more competent.
		
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That is more or less what he did whilst occupying City Hall... Though I'd question the competence of his deputies...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

Honestly. Is this guy really our Prime Minister?  What was in his glass?  And what on earth was he blustering on about - waving his hands all over the place as if he's Simon bleedin' Rattle...






Anyhow - some truths from him.  NI has got a great deal - keeps free movement; keeps free access to the Single Market; keeps unfettered access to the GB (actually so not true that you wonder if he understands what he has negotiated - or maybe he thinks if he lies in public enough times folks will end up believing him)

Well yes - it's a great deal for NI - in fact much better than the rest of the UK for which the deal is not so great.  And yes - some of us are very aware of that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

What an absolute blowbag.
The look on his audience's faces as they try to decipher his mumblings is quite priceless. The guy on the left needs a 'what on earth have we done' bubble attached.

Any sensible reason why Scotland cannot have the same GREAT DEAL as NI . That would then allow England and Wales float off into the wonderful isolation they seem to crave.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What an absolute blowbag.
The look on his audience's faces as they try to decipher his mumblings is quite priceless. The guy on the left needs a 'what on earth have we done' bubble attached.

*Any sensible reason why Scotland cannot have the same GREAT DEAL as NI *. That would then allow England and Wales float off into the wonderful isolation they seem to crave.
		
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Surely even you can understand the clear difference between NI and Scotland why the deal and why Scotland clearly canâ€™t have the same one


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Honestly. Is this guy really our Prime Minister?  What was in his glass?  And what on earth was he blustering on about - waving his hands all over the place as if he's Simon bleedin' Rattle...






Anyhow - some truths from him.  NI has got a great deal - keeps free movement; keeps free access to the Single Market; keeps unfettered access to the GB (actually so not true that you wonder if he understands what he has negotiated - or maybe he thinks if he lies in public enough times folks will end up believing him)

Well yes - it's a great deal for NI - in fact much better than the rest of the UK for which the deal is not so great.  And yes - some of us are very aware of that.
		
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Did you really not understand what he said? Or are you being deliberately obtuse? Methinks you'd made your mind up before he'd even opened his mouth. And for all those that said there'd be a customs border between NI and the UK, ha-bloody-ha. Look pretty foolish now don't you.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did you really not understand what he said? Or are you being deliberately obtuse? Methinks you'd made your mind up before he'd even opened his mouth. And for all those that said there'd be a customs border between NI and the UK, ha-bloody-ha. Look pretty foolish now don't you.
		
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If there was a poll I'd select "deliberately obtuse" but even if there was one he'd insist we'd need a second, or even third vote to get it right ðŸ‘


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did you really not understand what he said? Or are you being deliberately obtuse? Methinks you'd made your mind up before he'd even opened his mouth. And for all those that said there'd be a customs border between NI and the UK, ha-bloody-ha. Look pretty foolish now don't you.
		
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Eh?  Johnson actually says _'..there will not be checks...on goods going from NI to Great Britain...you have, as it says in the deal, unfettered access to the GB' _- and we know that there will be, and we know that it doesn't?

And if I have misunderstood - then so have very many informed commentators.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Eh?  Johnson actually says _'..there will not be checks...on goods going from NI to Great Britain...you have, as it says in the deal, unfettered access to the GB' _- and we know that there will be, and we know that it doesn't?

And if I have misunderstood - then so have very many informed commentators.
		
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The checks will be on goods that originated from Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Same going the other way. Goods from the UK will only be subject to checks if their end destination is Ireland. I posted up a link a week or so back with the detail but, as usual, some prefer to ignore the detail, preferring to jump on the bandwagon of hysteria.

Don't get me wrong Hugh, I detest Johnson. He is the UK's version of Trump in so many ways, and not far behind Farage in my eyes, but if we're going to have a proper debate lets keep it to facts, not political soundbites.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The checks will be on goods that originated from Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Same going the other way. Goods from the UK will only be subject to checks if their end destination is Ireland. I posted up a link a week or so back with the detail but, as usual, some prefer to ignore the detail, preferring to jump on the bandwagon of hysteria.

Don't get me wrong Hugh, I detest Johnson. He is the UK's version of Trump in so many ways, and not far behind Farage in my eyes, but if we're going to have a proper debate lets keep it to facts, not political soundbites.
		
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But there will still be checks on vehicles travelling from NI to rUK, because some will contain EU-sourced goods - full or part load - and for Unionists it is that sign of a 'border' that is surely the main issue,  as trucks containing NI-only originated goods are held up by checks on other vehicles - or have to demonstrate in some way that they only contain NI-sourced goods.

Apart from that - I do like that Johnson was selling the benefits to NI of full single market access and freedom of movement.  Pity the rUK won't have that and so by definition the rUK will be less advantaged...and over to Nicola.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But there will still be checks on vehicles travelling from NI to rUK, because some will contain EU-sourced goods - full or part load - and for Unionists it is that sign of a 'border' that is surely the main issue,  as trucks containing NI-only originated goods are held up by checks on other vehicles - or have to demonstrate in some way that they only contain NI-sourced goods.

Apart from that - I do like that Johnson was selling the benefits to NI of full single market access and freedom of movement.  Pity the rUK won't have that and so by definition the rUK will be less advantaged...
		
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For a mixed load, yes there will be checks. I have no problem with that. Not sure I agree with you about a line of trucks because the one at the front will be undergoing checks. Do you not think that trucks with EU goods will be directed to a different line, e.g. airport queues that has two lines at passport control? Imagine a queue of trucks with the last few still on the boat, holding up loading for the turnaround - its not going to happen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

Hells Bells it now seems that BoJo cannot even lay a wreath the right way around.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hells Bells it now seems that BoJo cannot even lay a wreath the right way around.
		
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I guess you're not referring to the BBC's 'production' mistake of showing a VT from 2016 ?


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## woody69 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The checks will be on goods that originated from Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Same going the other way. Goods from the UK will only be subject to checks if their end destination is Ireland. I posted up a link a week or so back with the detail but, as usual, some prefer to ignore the detail, preferring to jump on the bandwagon of hysteria.

Don't get me wrong Hugh, I detest Johnson. He is the UK's version of Trump in so many ways, and not far behind Farage in my eyes, but if we're going to have a proper debate lets keep it to facts, not political soundbites.
		
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I didn't see your link. Can you share it again please, or point me towards it?

Does it say the same as this article https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...radicts-own-cabinet-on-northern-ireland-trade


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			For a mixed load, yes there will be checks. I have no problem with that. Not sure I agree with you about a line of trucks because the one at the front will be undergoing checks. Do you not think that trucks with EU goods will be directed to a different line, e.g. airport queues that has two lines at passport control? Imagine a queue of trucks with the last few still on the boat, holding up loading for the turnaround - its not going to happen.
		
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To an extent I don't think that it matter to Unionists how much or how little trucks are held up - the fact is that some trucks will be held up because of NI/rUK border checks.  And as it happens neither you or I have any idea what is actually going to happen in respect of disruption - the fact is that the flow between NI and rUK will not be unfettered (def. in law - _not influenced or limited by rules, regulations or any other outside influence_.)


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To an extent I don't think that it matter to Unionists how much or how little trucks are held up - the fact is that some trucks will be held up because of NI/rUK border checks.  And as it happens neither you or I have any idea what is actually going to happen in respect of disruption - the fact is that the flow between NI and rUK will not be unfettered (def. in law - _not influenced or limited by rules, regulations or any other outside influence_.)
		
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So "neither you nor I have any idea...," and then you go on to say "the fact is that the flow between NI and rUK will not be unfettered..."

Well, do you know or don't you know? Your subconscious bias coming out again? Or you do know? Do you? A barrister would tie you in knots better than any Boy Scout.

BTW, having sent goods to NI in the past, things don't move as smoothly as you may think... thats assuming that you do know what you don't know, maybe


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## Mudball (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The checks will be on goods that originated from Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Same going the other way. Goods from the UK will only be subject to checks if their end destination is Ireland. I posted up a link a week or so back with the detail but, as usual, some prefer to ignore the detail, preferring to jump on the bandwagon of hysteria.

Don't get me wrong Hugh, I detest Johnson. He is the UK's version of Trump in so many ways, and not far behind Farage in my eyes, but if we're going to have a proper debate lets keep it to facts, not political soundbites.
		
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Wasnâ€™t this originally posted by some business guy from NI on twitter as Bojos response to (I m paraphrasing)â€™ what forms do we need to fillâ€™ and BJ asked them to bin all forms and then kept blustering thru them. 

Also on the other point... IIRC, you will have forms/checks on goods going from GB to NI. If the goods r consumed in NI then no further action (or you get a refund) and if they go on to RoI/EU then you pay for customs et al


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So "neither you nor I have any idea...," and then you go on to say "the fact is that the flow between NI and rUK will not be unfettered..."

Well, do you know or don't you know? Your subconscious bias coming out again? Or you do know? Do you? A barrister would tie you in knots better than any Boy Scout.

BTW, having sent goods to NI in the past, things don't move as smoothly as you may think... thats assuming that you do know what you don't know, maybe

Click to expand...

Bri - goods traffic from NI to the rUK will not flow unfettered...because as you agree there *must *be checks on at least some of the vehicles.  That is all I am actually _contesting _about what Johnson said in his briefing in NI.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Well given the press briefing yesterday that didn’t happen as the press walked out, and the ‘no questions’ one today - looks like Cummings is heading down the route with Johnson of making sure that the only words of wisdom we hear from Johnson are delivered by the media outlets friendly to the words...

meanwhile across the pond Trump is looking to ban CNN from his next SotU address.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So "neither you nor I have any idea...," and then you go on to say* "the fact is that the flow between NI and rUK will not be unfettered..."*

Well, do you know or don't you know? Your subconscious bias coming out again? Or you do know? Do you? A barrister would tie you in knots better than any Boy Scout.

BTW, having sent goods to NI in the past, things don't move as smoothly as you may think... thats assuming that you do know what you don't know, maybe

Click to expand...

Looks like this is most certainly going to be true.  And may be true in general between the UK and the EU given Goves words of wisdom this morning on the objectives for the trade deal.


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## Old Skier (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well given the press briefing yesterday that didn’t happen as the press walked out, and the ‘no questions’ one today - looks like Cummings is heading down the route with Johnson of making sure that the only words of wisdom we hear from Johnson are delivered by the media outlets friendly to the words...

meanwhile across the pond Trump is looking to ban CNN from his next SotU address.
		
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Well you are obviously better informed than the daily politics. According to reporters on that programme the briefing was by top civil servant who made the decision and not any of Boris's paid henchmen but let's not let facts get in the way of one of your posts.

Apparently Mr Starmer also bans areas of the media from his gatherings.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well you are obviously better informed than the daily politics. According to reporters on that programme the briefing was by top civil servant who made the decision and not any of Boris's paid henchmen but let's not let facts get in the way of one of your posts.

Apparently Mr Starmer also bans areas of the media from his gatherings.
		
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Yeah but Rent-a-gob James O Brien said it, so it must be true!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well you are obviously better informed than the daily politics. According to reporters on that programme the briefing was by top civil servant who made the decision and not any of Boris's paid henchmen but let's not let facts get in the way of one of your posts.

Apparently Mr Starmer also bans areas of the media from his gatherings.
		
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Not great by Starmer - but he is not in government and any 'banning' of The Sun from any press briefings he does is to his own determent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well you are obviously better informed than the daily politics. According to reporters on that programme the briefing was by top civil servant who made the decision and not any of Boris's paid henchmen but let's not let facts get in the way of one of your posts.

Apparently Mr Starmer also bans areas of the media from his gatherings.
		
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OK - in which case it is very easy for Johnson and Cummings to correct that and make sure it doesn't happen again - and to make sure that the press can ask questions...


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## Old Skier (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not great by Starmer - but he is not in government and any 'banning' of The Sun from any press briefings he does is to his own determent.
		
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But you said the briefing never happened.  Obviously banning anyone fro the briefing is not the way forward but the continued misinformation that you appear to post does you no favours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But you said the briefing never happened.  Obviously banning anyone fro the briefing is not the way forward but the continued misinformation that you appear to post does you know favours.
		
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The Starmer briefing or non-briefing is a side show compared with media control by our government.


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## drdel (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - in which case it is very easy for Johnson and Cummings to correct that and make sure it doesn't happen again - and to make sure that the press can ask questions...
		
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Why?

I believe the 'briefing' was not supposed to be a full on speech. 'Senior' members of the press were invited, some other who were not invited were refused access. The invited guests got juvenile, upset and left as well. A number of the media have been pedalling rather suspect versions of the truth so why not be selective. The 'press' aren't royalty despite them thinking they are.

If you were the chairman of a company, organisation and had arranged a briefing to invited press members would you permit anyone else entrance?


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looks like this is most certainly going to be true.  And may be true in general between the UK and the EU given Goves words of wisdom this morning on the objectives for the trade deal.
		
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Really? And you know that because....? The EU are insisting that the checks be down the Irish Sea, and Johnson has said "no." But you know better do you? The EU have also said that the UK must align its rules but are happy for Canada not to. I wonder what they fear?

I read Varadker's and Barnier's comments yesterday and, personally, I'd tell them to '''''off. Varadker is on a hiding in their upcoming elections and is making the "big I am" noise. Maybe he needs reminding where the majority of Ireland's exports go and where access the majority of the rest of their road traffic goes through to reach the EU.

No doubt you'll do your own Grima Wormtongue touching of forelock to the great EU and tell us all why the UK is despicable country ran by evil tyrants...


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			Why?

I believe the 'briefing' was not supposed to be a full on speech. 'Senior' members of the press were invited, some other who were not invited were refused access. The invited guests got juvenile, upset and left as well. A number of the media have been pedalling rather suspect versions of the truth so why not be selective. The 'press' aren't royalty despite them thinking they are.

If you were the chairman of a company, organisation and had arranged a briefing to invited press members would you permit anyone else entrance?
		
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Stop it! You know he'll twist, turn and deflect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Really? And you know that because....? The EU are insisting that the checks be down the Irish Sea, and Johnson has said "no." But you know better do you? The EU have also said that the UK must align its rules but are happy for Canada not to. I wonder what they fear?

I read Varadker's and Barnier's comments yesterday and, personally, I'd tell them to '''''off. Varadker is on a hiding in their upcoming elections and is making the "big I am" noise. Maybe he needs reminding where the majority of Ireland's exports go and where access the majority of the rest of their road traffic goes through to reach the EU.

No doubt you'll do your own Grima Wormtongue touching of forelock to the great EU and tell us all why the UK is despicable country ran by evil tyrants...

Click to expand...

Sorry - I must have misunderstood what the Daily Mail reported about what Gove said...

_But he conceded that the UK's plan to diverge from some Brussels rules and regulations would mean the introduction of 'some bureaucratic processes there that aren’t there now'. _

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ts-post-Brexit-trade-EU-NOT-frictionless.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But you said the briefing never happened.  Obviously banning anyone fro the briefing is not the way forward but the continued misinformation that you appear to post does you no favours.
		
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I may have been mistaken in my understanding that when the media walked the briefing didn’t happen - I’m still not clear whether it did or didn’t - but that’s not the point as Stephen Glover in the Daily Mail makes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...s-access-briefings-outrageous-censorship.html

i will add - quoting from the article

_everyone present walked out in protest..._

doesnt make for much of a press briefing...

and

_largely orchestrated by the Prime Minister’s Chief Adviser Dominic Cummings_

yes - it was all civil servants


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I may have been mistaken in my understanding that when the media walked the briefing didn’t happen - I’m still not clear whether it did or didn’t - but that’s not the point as Stephen Glover in the Daily Mail makes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...s-access-briefings-outrageous-censorship.html

i will add - quoting from the article

_everyone present walked out in protest..._

doesnt make for much of a press briefing...

and

_largely orchestrated by the Prime Minister’s Chief Adviser Dominic Cummings_

yes - it was all civil servants
		
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I can only say what the reporter from the Guardian said on Politics Live. She said she was there and stayed and there was no indication that Cummings or his heavy mob were involved.

As we weren't there to confirm what happened we will have to leave it there although selective belief in the Daily Mail can be dangerous.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2020)

As is a selective belief in the Guardian.  And I can only say what I read and heard.  I suggest that if such as Stephen Glover is levelling such criticism towards Cummings, and therefore towards Johnson, in the Daily Mail then there is something to it.  Nonetheless when I posted what I did I stood accused of misrepresentation. But i am used to that so not too fussed 😘

curious that we have supporters of the government (apologies if my assumption is wrong) quoting the Guardian - and opponents of it quoting the Daily Mail.  Weird times.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2020)

Give a dog a bone


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Give a dog a bone
		
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..and he will bury it?

sorry not sure of your point...


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As is a selective belief in the Guardian.  I suggest that if such as Stephen Glover is levelling such criticism towards Cummings, and therefore towards Johnson, in the Daily Mail then there is something to it.  Nonetheless when I posted what I did I stood accused of misrepresentation. But i am used to that so not too fussed 😘

curious that we have supporters of the government (apologies if my assumption is wrong) quoting the Guardian - and opponents of it quoting the Daily Mail.  Weird times.
		
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I'm just quoting from a person who was present who happens to be a Guardian reporter, as I no longer read newspapers so I'm not sure how you can assume anything or do I assume that as a Daily Mail reader your politics are way right of right.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and he will bury it?

sorry not sure of your point...
		
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And he will happily gnaw away all day.


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

Every silver lining has a cloud, if you look hard enough


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## williamalex1 (Feb 5, 2020)

This thread is now 4 years old,  IMHO post 6 summed him up.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			This thread is now 4 years old,  IMHO post 6 summed him up.
		
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But the dogs got a bone and hes not giving it up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But the dogs got a bone and hes not giving it up.
		
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Why don’t you just ignore him instead of looking to troll him at every opportunity if he infuriated you that much ?


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## williamalex1 (Feb 5, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don’t you just ignore him instead of looking to troll him at every opportunity if he infuriated you that much ?
		
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Me


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Me 

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Nah not you - far from it 👍


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don’t you just ignore him instead of looking to troll him at every opportunity if he infuriated you that much ?
		
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Why dont you just ignore me instead of complaining about my posts if I infuriate you that much. You know it makes sense.


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

I did enjoy his commments about the snp leader 😂


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## patricks148 (Feb 7, 2020)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...BTvajfyfczpx-X8brtdyz-owmBRxw3lzEC9lpU_hSXihc

this must be what Boris means when he keeps saying "Leveling up"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

And now that he is PM I would have thought we'd have heard mention of an apparent proposal to cut income tax relief on pension contributions *before *the General Election.  No matter - there's always the bridge - no - not the garden bridge - that went well did it not - no - the one from Scotland to NI?  hmmm...

On that bridge I hear that PM Johnson likes big ticket infrastructure projects - things that might magnify his magnificence and munificence. Now let me consider historically the sort of leader who likes that sort of thing...hmmm - don't think I'll bother - the comparisons aren't 100% brilliant.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2020)

So would you like to to accurately quote what he said about "the bridge"


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## Dando (Feb 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So would you like to to accurately quote what he said about "the bridge"
		
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don’t be silly


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And now that he is PM I would have thought we'd have heard mention of an apparent proposal to cut income tax relief on pension contributions *before *the General Election.  No matter - there's always the bridge - no - not the garden bridge - that went well did it not - no - the one from Scotland to NI?  hmmm...

On that bridge I hear that PM Johnson likes big ticket infrastructure projects - things that might magnify his magnificence and munificence. Now let me consider historically the sort of leader who likes that sort of thing...hmmm - don't think I'll bother - the comparisons aren't 100% brilliant.
		
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C'mon Hugh, that just sounds so petulant. You'd criticise him if he didn't propose big (public)spending on infrastructure projects and you'd criticise him if he did. You just come across as the spoilt child who didn't get his way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			C'mon Hugh, that just sounds so petulant. You'd criticise him if he didn't propose big (public)spending on infrastructure projects and you'd criticise him if he did. You just come across as the spoilt child who didn't get his way.
		
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It’s nothing I’m bothered about in the slightest.  In fact the change in pension tax relief is a pretty good way of doing a little bit of socialist wealth redistribution if he uses the money raised to fund tax and NI cuts for the poorer - and so this possible Pension TR change is something I’d support 100%. 

The bridge I just don’t get.  I think there are louder calls for infrastructure investment in such as a northern crossrail.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s nothing I’m bothered about in the slightest.  In fact the change in pension tax relief is a pretty good way of doing a little bit of socialist wealth redistribution if he uses the money raised to fund tax and NI cuts for the poorer - and so this possible Pension TR change is something I’d support 100%.

The bridge I just don’t get.  I think there are louder calls for infrastructure investment in such as a northern crossrail.
		
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You’re so not bothered you started the thread and regularly post your thoughts about Boris...


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2020)

The election (or rather rejection of JC) shows we are not a socialist country. So why this sudden urge to raid pension pot. I work hard, pay my tax and put money aside for retirement. I am trying to not depend on the state when I am older.  I am a million miles away from the 1m cap. So why is our learned friend planning a raid.  

What avenue does the average joe have to save money?  While he is at it, why not raid ISA, JISA etc too - just so he can pay for vanity projects like the HS2, Scottish bridge and estuary airport


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51456387 

Why specifically this group of Jamaican convicted offenders...?

_First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist..._


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You’re so not bothered you started the thread and regularly post your thoughts about Boris...
		
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No I'm not - there is nothing I can do about what Johnson and his crew do now (except pray for them that they do the right thing  ).  But I can still comment.  I just plough on and let them get on with it - and they will be due whatever comeuppance is theirs if their acts and outcomes promised do not match up with what they promised and offered...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The election (or rather rejection of JC) shows we are not a socialist country. So why this sudden urge to raid pension pot. I work hard, pay my tax and put money aside for retirement. I am trying to not depend on the state when I am older.  I am a million miles away from the 1m cap. So why is our learned friend planning a raid.

What avenue does the average joe have to save money?  While he is at it, why not raid ISA, JISA etc too - just so he can pay for vanity projects like the HS2, Scottish bridge and estuary airport
		
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I think that you'll only take home less if you pay tax on your income at 40% after your pension contributions are taken off your top line.  Anyway I think that's the plan.  Not a bad idea for a bit of wealth redistribution if that's what they decide to do with it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51456387

Why specifically this group of Jamaican convicted offenders...?

_First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist..._

Click to expand...

The numbers of foreign criminals deported has been averaging over 1,000 for the last 8 years, the majority deported during that time aren't Jamaican. The law for this was brought in by Labour in 2007.

All those origanally scheduled for the flight that mounted a valid legal challenge were granted the right to remain whilst that challenge is heard.


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The numbers of foreign criminals deported has been averaging over 1,000 for the last 8 years, the majority deported during that time aren't Jamaican. The law for this was brought in by Labour in 2007.

All those origanally scheduled for the flight that mounted a valid legal challenge were granted the right to remain whilst that challenge is heard.
		
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As twitter goes into meltdown on demands for Rolf Harris a convicted convicted paedophile didn't get deported though yet he is a foreign national.  but easy to send a planeload of Jamicans.  

Friends in high places?  white privilege?


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you'll only take home less if you pay tax on your income at 40% after your pension contributions are taken off your top line.  Anyway I think that's the plan.  *Not a bad idea for a bit of wealth redistribution* if that's what they decide to do with it.
		
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Why is it not a bad idea.... I alredy pay 40% tax... now iwth this, we will end up with 50% tax.. So half of what i earn will go to the state?   Punishment for being good at what you do. So i should aim to be mediocre and save tax.  Great way for nation building.  Also great time if you are an accountant and can help dodge taxes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Why is it not a bad idea.... I alredy pay 40% tax... now iwth this, we will end up with 50% tax.. So half of what i earn will go to the state?   Punishment for being good at what you do. So i should aim to be mediocre and save tax.  Great way for nation building.  Also great time if you are an accountant and can help dodge taxes.
		
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Because I am more than happy with a bit more wealth redistribution...and maybe also so does the Prime Minister - maybe he needs to answer that question...it's a pretty easy question for a democratic socialist such as myself to answer 

And if you have a Tory MP - maybe Email him the question you have just asked and let us know what he/she says in reply?


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

i'm sure he almost said lets get HS2 done on C4 news tonight


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i'm sure he almost said lets get HS2 done on C4 news tonight

Click to expand...

I think he did - well I am sure I heard him say it as I twigged it straight away - thinking that he must have thought it worked so well with Brexit he’ll use the same psychological trope with hs2.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I'm not - there is nothing I can do about what Johnson and his crew do now (except pray for them that they do the right thing  ).  But I can still comment.  I just plough on and let them get on with it - and they will be due whatever comeuppance is theirs if their acts and outcomes promised do not match up with what they promised and offered...
		
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Let me understand you here.

If Boris and his crew do the right thing( according to you), then it is God's doing , having responded to your praying.

If Boris does the wrong thing, it's his own doing?

Poor bugger doesn't seem to stand a chance with you!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Let me understand you here.

If Boris and his crew do the right thing( according to you), then it is God's doing , having responded to your praying.

If Boris does the wrong thing, it's his own doing?

Poor bugger doesn't seem to stand a chance with you!
		
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In all things Johnson knows what he wants to do - I can only pray that he always also understands the ‘right’ thing to do and that then he chooses to do the right thing.

But the choice will always be his.  When what I want to do is the same as what I understand to be the right thing to do the choice is easy...there is no difficult decision to be made.  It is when they are not the same that the decision becomes more difficult - but I can still choose to do what I want to do - nothing stopping me.  God doesn’t do the doing - I do the doing.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In all things Johnson knows what he wants to do - I can only pray that he always also understands the ‘right’ thing to do and that then he chooses to do the right thing.

But the choice will always be his.  When what I want to do is the same as what I understand to be the right thing to do the choice is easy...there is no difficult decision to be made.  It is when they are not the same that the decision becomes more difficult - but I can still choose to do what I want to do - nothing stopping me.  God doesn’t do the doing - I do the doing.
		
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But he is choosing his right way, just not your right way. You need to learn to accept that. And in x years time, at the next election, you've got to hope that the majority choose your right way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But he is choosing his right way, just not your right way. You need to learn to accept that. And in x years time, at the next election, you've got to hope that the majority choose your right way.
		
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That's absolutely fine.  He has his understanding of what is the _right _thing to do (my belief is that with most choices there is usually only *one *_right _thing to do), and of what _he _wants to do (of which there can be many options - including his preferred) - and when they are the same - brilliant.   I simply pray that he has the fullest understanding of the _right _thing to do and the strength to choose to do that.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply pray that he has the fullest understanding of the _right _thing to do and the strength to choose to do that.
		
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As long as it's the thing that you think is right.
Didn't you pray to stay in the EU?


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's absolutely fine.  He has his understanding of what is the _right _thing to do (my belief is that with most choices there is usually only *one *_right _thing to do), and of what _he _wants to do (of which there can be many options - including his preferred) - and when they are the same - brilliant.   I simply pray that he has the fullest understanding of the _right _thing to do and the strength to choose to do that.
		
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We could split hairs till the cows come home on this one Hugh. There are some choices for which there is only one right answer, e.g. should I walk across a congested motorway. However, equally, there are political choices that run counter to our own fundamental beliefs but are absolutely the right choice for someone else. The obvious one is Brexit. If someone doesn't want EU laws, their choice might have been vote Leave. Never mind the reams that we've posted, their choice was right.

Austerity; one obvious need was to cut spending. Few would argue against the need to cut back in some areas. The Tory choice, in my opinion, went too far, too deeply and for too long. They believe they did the right thing.

As soon as we apply an opinion to the right thing, not a fact, it becomes our right thing, not the absolute right thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We could split hairs till the cows come home on this one Hugh. There are some choices for which there is only one right answer, e.g. should I walk across a congested motorway. However, equally, there are political choices that run counter to our own fundamental beliefs but are absolutely the right choice for someone else. The obvious one is Brexit. If someone doesn't want EU laws, their choice might have been vote Leave. Never mind the reams that we've posted, their choice was right.

Austerity; one obvious need was to cut spending. Few would argue against the need to cut back in some areas. The Tory choice, in my opinion, went too far, too deeply and for too long. They believe they did the right thing.

As soon as we apply an opinion to the right thing, not a fact, it becomes our right thing, not the absolute right thing.
		
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...and it is only when you are the person who has to make the decision will you be in the position to have an understanding of what is best to do (for one and/or for all) and what you, as the person making the decision, might want to do.

On HS2.  Johnson has made a decision that will cause him personal difficulities with many Tory MPs.  In that decision, because of and despite the difficulties he will have, he may well have made the right decision - the easy one for him might well have been to cancel it.

On Austerity.  Maybe indeed cuts were required - and that may have been the right thing to do as well as the thing Tory governments might want to do.  But continuiing the cuts to the extent they were taken - perhaps too much on a point of Conservative principle - when the cuts were actually starting to hurt those least able to cope.  That may have been Conservative 'self-will' taking priority over doing the 'right' thing.

Sometimes we have a clearer idea of the right thing to do than other times.  So where you state that voters who voted to leave did the right thing in their eyes.  That is absolutely true.  However I might contest that none of us really had a very clear understanding of the right thing to do - and so we voted on the basis of our understanding of what was right - for ourselves and for the wider country.  My issue with the whole Brexit debate was the level of misinformation and fears being poured out to us all - making it very difficult for any of us to truly understand the right thing to do - which way to vote.  We all just did our best with what we had.

And that is all I am saying with Johnson is that I pray that he and the government have clear understanding of the _right _thing to do in any matter - and do that - even when that might not be what their instinct as individuals, politicians or a government might have as what _they _would want to do.  And that is not easy - for anyone.


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## drdel (Feb 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Why is it not a bad idea.... I alredy pay 40% tax... now iwth this, we will end up with 50% tax.. So *half of what i earn will* go to the state?   Punishment for being good at what you do. So i should aim to be mediocre and save tax.  Great way for nation building.  Also great time if you are an accountant and can help dodge taxes.
		
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You are upping the ante -you'll never pay half in tax.
I think you're numbers are wrong In 2020 tax year you can earn £50k before paying 40%. (£7.5k a rate of ~15% tax) If it changes and you earn £60 you pay £12.5k tax. thus you 'tax' to the state is a net rate of 21% (Exc NI and pension allowance)


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## Mudball (Feb 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			You are upping the ante -you'll never pay half in tax.
I think you're numbers are wrong In 2020 tax year you can earn £50k before paying 40%. (£7.5k a rate of ~15% tax) If it changes and you earn £60 you pay £12.5k tax. thus you 'tax' to the state is a net rate of 21% (Exc NI and pension allowance)
		
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its getting there..  >150k and you are starting to touch the figures... esp if you start raiding pension contributions.   If the state wants to pay me when i get old rather than make my own arrangements, then i ok


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## Kellfire (Feb 12, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227567141450326022
His face though...


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## patricks148 (Feb 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227567141450326022
His face though...
		
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that look to me said i'm going to call my chums from the Bullington and sheerhite you up in the car park


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			its getting there..  >150k and you are starting to touch the figures... esp if you start raiding pension contributions.   If the state wants to pay me when i get old rather than make my own arrangements, then i ok
		
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Loads of 'IFs' in there!

And as the highest MARGINAL rate is (current;y) 45%, Del is absolutely correct that you will never be paying >50% IncomeTax!


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## JamesR (Feb 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227567141450326022
His face though...
		
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Don’t forget that the blonde idiot was born outside the U.K., and being an, admitted, class A drug user, is not much different to the Jamaican villains. Other than the obvious colour, creed & class !


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## Mudball (Feb 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Don’t forget that the blonde idiot was born outside the U.K., and being an, admitted, class A drug user, is not much different to the Jamaican villains. Other than the obvious colour, creed & class !
		
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Don’t say such things... bozo May send Miller to Jamaica next ...


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## Kellfire (Feb 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Don’t forget that the blonde idiot was born outside the U.K., and being an, admitted, class A drug user, is not much different to the Jamaican villains. Other than the obvious colour, creed & class !
		
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Yes that was the entire point of the tweet and my post.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Don’t forget that the blonde idiot was born outside the U.K., and being an, admitted, class A drug user, is not much different to the Jamaican villains. Other than the obvious colour, creed & class !
		
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The blond boy is a British Citizen holding a British passport I think you'll find. The other point may be to do with the fact that one was a user and the other was a dealer.

Torys carry out legislation initiated by a Labour Government and Labour give them stick. Mad world.


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## JamesR (Feb 12, 2020)

❄️❄️❄️❄️
Didn’t mean to upset you all , sorry 😱


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## Mudball (Feb 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The blond boy is a British Citizen holding a British passport I think you'll find. The other point may be to do with the fact that one was a user and the other was a dealer.

Torys carry out legislation initiated by a Labour Government and Labour give them stick. Mad world.
		
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Is Rolf Harris an Aussie or Brit?  Love the fact that Tories already blaming Labour despite being in power for nearly a decade now.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is Rolf Harris an Aussie or Brit?  Love the fact that Tories already blaming Labour despite being in power for nearly a decade now.
		
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Who's blaming Labour


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is Rolf Harris an Aussie or Brit?  Love the fact that Tories already blaming Labour despite being in power for nearly a decade now.
		
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Well on his show this evening on LBC Farage was pushed into saying that he’d have Harris sent back to Oz on his release to demonstrate that there was nothing ‘special’ about the Jamaicans being sent ‘home’ and that it should be one rule for all. Fair dinkum Nigel.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Who's blaming Labour
		
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So if you’re not blaming Labour or even trying to put some responsibility on to them, why even mention them?

Surely the tories have had enough time to review this legislation, take responsibilty and make decisions for themselves?


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## Old Skier (Feb 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So if you’re not blaming Labour or even trying to put some responsibility on to them, why even mention them?

Surely the tories have had enough time to review this legislation, take responsibilty and make decisions for themselves?
		
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Perhaps it's good legislation and has the support of all party's. As people have pointed out, if it's good then it should be carried out equally amongst all offenders.

As Harris was the child of Welsh immigrants there's a chance he has dual nationality, who knows.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps it's good legislation and has the support of all party's. As people have pointed out, if it's good then it should be carried out equally amongst all offenders.

As Harris was the child of Welsh immigrants there's a chance he has dual nationality, who knows.
		
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Fair points, not what came across in your initial response though.


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## ger147 (Feb 13, 2020)

Re-shuffle going well, Javid resigns...


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## ger147 (Feb 13, 2020)

Rishi Sunak rumoured to be the next Chancellor, never heard of him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Rishi Sunak rumoured to be the next Chancellor, never heard of him.
		
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Oh he's been out and about on the TV and radio quite a lot.  A Boris loyalist and solid Brexit.  And so a pliable puppet for Johnson and Cummings when _they _choose to pull Treasury strings.


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## ger147 (Feb 13, 2020)

Interesting way for Boris to sack Javid i.e. not sack him but then effectively insisting he kneels and kisses his ring knowing full well he wouldn't. Why didn't he just sack him?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Interesting way for Boris to sack Javid i.e. not sack him but then effectively insisting he kneels and kisses his ring knowing full well he wouldn't. Why didn't he just sack him?
		
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Because Cummings 'sacked' him buy telling him that he had to get rid of all of his advisers in the treasury...?

And who is now going to write the budget...?  Nice wealthy man of the people but inexperienced Sunak - or Johnson and Cummings - sorry - Cummings and Johnson.


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## ger147 (Feb 13, 2020)

The Treasury won't take kindly to having its wings clipped, will be interesting to see if this comes back to haunt Boris some time down the road.


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## pendodave (Feb 13, 2020)

ger147 said:



			The Treasury won't take kindly to having its wings clipped, will be interesting to see if this comes back to haunt Boris some time down the road.
		
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Will be interesting to see what budget cummings comes up with. And how it is briefed before and after.


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## ger147 (Feb 13, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Will be interesting to see what budget cummings comes up with. And how it is briefed before and after.
		
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Assuming Javid and the Treasury have all but finished it with just 4 weeks to go, there will deffo be a No.10 driven re-write underway.

As you say, will be interesting to see what's in it and how it's reported.


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh he's been out and about on the TV and radio quite a lot.  A Boris loyalist and solid Brexit.  And so a pliable puppet for Johnson and Cummings when _they _choose to pull Treasury strings.
		
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Comes attached with a billionarie father in law..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnson fan boys should be happy with this...getting all nice and authoritarian to do what he wants whenever he wants - just like Donny.

Cummings at the root of what's going on - oh no - this is the PMs decisions.

or as Grima Wormtongue said when questioned about a contentious declaration from the King of the Rohan...

_Oh, but this order does not come from me. It comes from the King. _

Not that Cummings is anything like Wormtongue of course...such a comparison would be invidious and not one that I would make.


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## chrisd (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson fan boys should be happy with this...getting all nice and authoritarian to do what he wants whenever he wants - just like Donny.
		
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........... and just like his huge majority mandated him to do 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			........... and just like his huge majority mandated him to do 👍
		
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I thought those that voted for him did so on the belief he’d do what he said in his manifesto or interviews, I’d be surprised if any intelligent person voted for him to “do whatever he wants”


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			........... and just like his huge majority mandated him to do 👍
		
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Really?  You might but I don't think so.  The country voted for a Conservative government with a mandate to deliver their manifesto - not as far as I am aware of something edging towards authoritarian rule by a single individual with behind the scenes direction from an unelected adviser.  But as I thought - the fan boys declare their allegiance whatever,  they just need to keep their eyes shielded from events across the pond and pretend it's all OK.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2020)

I really don't get all the whinging about the reshuffle. 

The PM won a sizeable majority and has ideas and plans he wants too push through. Whether we thinks his plans are good or bad isn't relevant; he was elected to run a government. If he wants to take a firmer hand (lets face it there was a shambles of leaks from the Treasury under Javid and his predecessor etc) to get his 'team' around him then why not - I know I would.

The streamlining of the Treasury N11 and N10 has been discussed before: the PM wants one team. I can't see why anyone running a big organisation wouldn't do the same at a time of needing rapid focused change. With the EU's juvenile Brussels cohort continually running to Twitter with 'stories of their demands' the UK needs to keep a strong control of plans/reports etc

In the USA its common practise for the PoTUS to bring in a new team.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			I really don't get all the whinging about the reshuffle.

The PM won a sizeable majority and has ideas and plans he wants too push through. Whether we thinks his plans are good or bad isn't relevant; he was elected to run a government. If he wants to take a firmer hand (lets face it there was a shambles of leaks from the Treasury under Javid and his predecessor etc) to get his 'team' around him then why not - I know I would.

The streamlining of the Treasury N11 and N10 has been discussed before: the PM wants one team. I can't see why anyone running a big organisation wouldn't do the same at a time of needing rapid focused change. With the EU's juvenile Brussels cohort continually running to Twitter with 'stories of their demands' the UK needs to keep a strong control of plans/reports etc

In the USA its common practise for the PoTUS to bring in a new team.
		
Click to expand...

He reshuffled a few weeks ago, with the people he wanted! 
How long does this cohort last?

Do we take it the last 2 months have been wasted or he rushed in to decisions!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			I really don't get all the whinging about the reshuffle.

...

In the USA its common practise for the PoTUS to bring in a new team.
		
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Indeed it is - and look what is happening across there.  

Current PotUS brings in someone and if they step an inch out of line then out they go until he has in place a bunch of patsies who stand by whilst he does whatever he wants to do...it could never happen here - is what they said when Trump was elected...


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is - and look what is happening across there.  PotUS brings in someone and if they step an inch out of line then out they go.
		
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So you're saying that if you were appointed to head up a team that required that you deliver on your promises you'd be happy to retain staff who 'leaked' or openly or sneakily took a different view to you own. When I've run my own 'change' teams, anyone who was not 'with me' was asked to move on: either a team has a clear path and focus otherwise it will fail.


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## chrisd (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really?  You might but I don't think so.  The country voted for a Conservative government with a mandate to deliver their manifesto - not as far as I am aware of something edging towards authoritarian rule by a single individual with behind the scenes direction from an unelected adviser.  But as I thought - the fan boys declare their allegiance whatever,  they just need to keep their eyes shielded from events across the pond and pretend it's all OK.
		
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I dont agree

The PM runs the government, he is entitled to appoint a Chancellor who will work with him to fund the manifesto he championed and Javid doesn't appear to want to do that. Most PM's have employed (unelected) advisers, indeed I have been watching two different ones assessing the re shuffle on Sky only this lunchtime, one for Cameron and one from Blair.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2020)

Brilliant!

People don't like unelected advisors. Fine, their choice. Can't say I'm a fan of Boris or Cummings. But the same people then decry Boris because he tells Javid he doesn't like some of his unelected advisors.

Double standards by Boris? Could well be. Double standards by those on here who don't like unelected advisors but aren't happy that Boris has said the same to Javid?

Personally, I couldn't give a toss about fast food, 5 min reactions, before we've had the detail or the evidence of performance. Thank god its 24* and shorts and t-shirt weather whilst sat outside having a late lunch - cabin fever overtakes Coronavirus in the UK


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## JamesR (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			I really don't get all the whinging about the reshuffle.

The PM won a sizeable majority and has ideas and plans he wants too push through. Whether we thinks his plans are good or bad isn't relevant; he was elected to run a government. If he wants to take a firmer hand (lets face it there was a shambles of leaks from the Treasury under Javid and his predecessor etc) to get his 'team' around him then why not - I know I would.

The streamlining of the Treasury N11 and N10 has been discussed before: the PM wants one team. I can't see why anyone running a big organisation wouldn't do the same at a time of needing rapid focused change. With the EU's juvenile Brussels cohort continually running to Twitter with 'stories of their demands' the UK needs to keep a strong control of plans/reports etc

In the USA its common practise for the PoTUS to bring in a new team.
		
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I agree with most of what you say; The PM is in charge, can pick his team, can ask them to dance to his tune.

My only concern is that, the cabinet is there not only to agree with everything and be yes men, but to challenge and guide the decision making process. Much as a strong opposition, and back benches, are there to hold the cabinet to order.
Just as all good teams in the world of business should have ideas men and people who will critically judge the ideas - one says "this will be great", he other says "yes, but it will cost too much" etc


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

All above is all very well and good - but as many commentators are saying in the US about the behaviour of the PotUS - '_they said it couldn't happen here'_ - and they are looking around as Trump trashes constitutional norms, institutions and expectations with impunity.

And they had stood at the side and waved him through - and they still do.

Anyway - it's what the people voted for.

But what happens when proper audit and oversight of a business is lacking or ignored - sometimes if the CEO is very powerful and the board are yes men.  Such as Carillion that's what.


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

looks like the new chancellor is an Ex Hedge fund banker, who is  anti trade  union,  is all for tax cuts to the wealthiest,opposed  tax avoidance clampdown measures  and for tax cuts to big business... leveling up indeed


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

i notice the report into Russian interference in elections hasn't been released yet.... i wonder why


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2020)

Its about time the Treasury was knocked into shape. They have acted like a department detached from the rest of Government for too long now, Javid, Hammond and Osborne have all been guilty of this, the deliberate leaks from their staff that never seem to be punished.  I like it that Boris has the balls to do something about it.


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## 2blue (Feb 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought those that voted for him did so on the belief he’d do what he said in his manifesto or interviews, I’d be surprised if any intelligent person voted for him to “do whatever he wants”
		
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Just the Dib, Dibbers Paul & various other very naive.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 14, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228049033299496960


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2020)

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/02/14/...DYJ2ydGgQKKC6rYTqR551Oay4v5uotmz7x2kBIzItZphQ 

its becoming more evedent why the report on Russian interference hasn't been published


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## Mudball (Feb 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://bylinetimes.com/2020/02/14/...DYJ2ydGgQKKC6rYTqR551Oay4v5uotmz7x2kBIzItZphQ

its becoming more evedent why the report on Russian interference hasn't been published

Click to expand...


Is anyone bothered or surprised by this??  Not me, as long as i have our fish and bendy bananas, this is all fine.    Just look across the pond.  8 years on and the Orange one is still around.  No point in getting worked up on these things.


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2020)

I went to a great play last week - The Last Temptation of Boris Johnson.

I you get the chance to see it...Go!


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is anyone bothered or surprised by this??  Not me, as long as i have our fish and bendy bananas, this is all fine.    Just look across the pond.  8 years on and the Orange one is still around.  No point in getting worked up on these things.
		
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all the usual supects in the media ignoring it just shows you ... where is DG when you need him


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## MegaSteve (Feb 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is anyone bothered or surprised by this??  Not me, as long as i have our fish and bendy bananas, this is all fine.    Just look across the pond.  8 years on and the Orange one is still around.  No point in getting worked up on these things.
		
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All of those that polluted Brussels were, of course, above board and totally honest... Like feck were they... All been tarred with the same brush ...

The fewer the politicians/bureaucrats the better...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I went to a great play last week - The Last Temptation of Boris Johnson.

I you get the chance to see it...Go!
		
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i prefer Shakespeare for his take on leaders with certain qualities.  Maybe in our PM we have a bit of King Henry IV.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2020)

Waiting to hear the words of wisdom from our PM to Andrew Sabisky ‘You’re fired’ - and then he turns to the man most likely to have hired Mr Sabisky - and tells Cummings ‘you are out of order - rein your neck in’. But will he...?

Let‘s see who is actually in charge of this country...


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## ger147 (Feb 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Waiting to hear the words of wisdom from our PM to Andrew Sabisky ‘You’re fired’ - and then he turns to the man most likely to have hired Mr Sabisky - and tells Cummings ‘you are out of order - rein your neck in’. But will he...?

Let‘s see who is actually in charge of this country...
		
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Sabisky is gone...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Sabisky is gone...
		
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Pity Johnson didn’t manage to sack him before he had a chance to resign.  And hope there has been a firm word in the ear of Cummings.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2020)

Hired to be fired to make them look good...….that's the way Cummings works.
He obviously thinks it is quite easy to fool a nation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hired to be fired to make them look good...….that's the way Cummings works.
He obviously thinks it is quite easy to fool a nation.

Click to expand...

If he’d been fired maybe...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2020)

Good to hear KwasiK speaking out very strongly this morning slamming the controversial views of the now ex-adviser.  Was he not available yesterday to express these views?  Or did he not 'hear' about them...until it was too late and he'd gone.

Or was it simply that KK didn't want to speak out sooner for fear of upsetting 'You know Who' - as YkW might well have been hoping for the storm to blow out and the guy stay.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2020)

That's the thing about 'misfits and weirdos', they sometimes have some weird and unpalatable (to most right thinking people) opinions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good to hear KwasiK speaking out very strongly this morning slamming the controversial views of the now ex-adviser.  Was he not available yesterday to express these views?  Or did he not 'hear' about them...until it was too late and he'd gone.

Or was it simply that KK didn't want to speak out sooner for fear of upsetting 'You know Who' - as YkW might well have been hoping for the storm to blow out and the guy stay.
		
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The cabinet is beginning to look/sound like a political version of The Stepford Wives.


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The cabinet is beginning to look/sound like a political version of The Stepford Wives.
		
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more like a load of infants repeating what the teacher has called out... how degrading and stupid must you feel having to do that in front of Camera every time there is a cab meeting??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			more like a load of infants repeating what the teacher has called out... how degrading and stupid must you feel having to do that in front of Camera every time there is a cab meeting??
		
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...and I soo loved Rishi Sunak giving big puppy dog eyes to Johnson as they sat beside each other at the Cabinet Table.  A Cabinet of powerful voices and independent minds.  Oh yes.  Ach well.  So be it...

And I think back to Spitting Image and Thatcher and her Cabinet around the Cabinet Table...oh how I laughed - I'm not laughing now...well actually at this I still am


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good to hear KwasiK speaking out very strongly this morning slamming the controversial views of the now ex-adviser.  Was he not available yesterday to express these views?  Or did he not 'hear' about them...until it was too late and he'd gone.

Or was it simply that KK didn't want to speak out sooner for fear of upsetting 'You know Who' - as YkW might well have been hoping for the storm to blow out and the guy stay.
		
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Johnson need not worry - he's got a supreme team of experts around him who have all the best wise words - see our Energy Minister (yes it was once more KK) fully on top of his brief yesterday when being interviewed by Nick Ferrari on LBC (KK might well have been thinking 'Hold on - this is Nick Ferrari on LBC asking me hard questions - he's supposed to bowl me dollies - the tough stuff is on the BBC that's why we no longer go there...).

Anyway - our Energy Minister on the new Durham open cast mine...successfully not answering the very question he must have expected to be asked as it was one reason why he was asked on to be interviewed.  And in the end KK tells us it was down to the local authority and out of the hands of the government - so what the...?  Or do they just not care that much.  Gotta laugh really


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 29225

Click to expand...

 Brilliant, how do they do it 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2020)

This thread is really looking like a Saddos refuge of last resort.


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## Dando (Feb 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 29225

Click to expand...

Hilarious


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## Dando (Feb 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Brilliant, how do they do it 🙄
		
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I bet if someone posted about the Scottish midget and her bunch of misfits, some pant wetters on here would complain to the mods!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2020)

Dando said:



			I bet if someone posted about the Scottish midget and her bunch of misfits, some pant wetters on here would complain to the mods!
		
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Apparently the correct term for them is 'dib dibbers' ?


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## patricks148 (Feb 19, 2020)

pot and kettle springs to mind


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 19, 2020)

Guys, play the game please, if you haven’t got anything constructive to say, then don’t say anything


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## Mudball (Feb 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 29225

Click to expand...

Atleast you can say it, the cabinet is fairly diverse....  it got lap dogs of all colours, genders and orientation


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Atleast you can say it, the cabinet is fairly diverse....  it got lap dogs of all colours, genders and orientation
		
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Mind you there are some real bitches in that lot.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 19, 2020)

Post 807

Please read and inwardly digest


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## chrisd (Feb 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Post 807

Please read and inwardly digest
		
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I've nothing to say


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## williamalex1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mind you there are some real bitches in that lot.

Click to expand...

DFT , you might be interested in Jacko's earlier thread  " South Ayrshire Next "


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2020)

Not that many words of wisdom from our PM in PM Questions today...in fact Corbyn did rather well exposing Johnson over his invisibility for the last two weeks or so and lack of anything from him on the flooding - and of course lots of the usual nothing from Johnson on every other question asked - and a few uncomfortable words directed at him from Javid.  In Johnson we trust...yeh right - a desperate performance from our PM.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that many words of wisdom from our PM in PM Questions today...in fact Corbyn did rather well exposing Johnson over his invisibility for the last two weeks or so and lack of anything from him on the flooding - and of course lots of the usual nothing from Johnson on every other question asked - and a few uncomfortable words directed at him from Javid.  In Johnson we trust...yeh right - a desperate performance from our PM.
		
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Suggest you re-watch it with an open mind.... if that's at all possible.


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that many words of wisdom from our PM in PM Questions today...in fact Corbyn did rather well exposing Johnson over his invisibility for the last two weeks or so and lack of anything from him on the flooding - and of course lots of the usual nothing from Johnson on every other question asked - and a few uncomfortable words directed at him from Javid.  In Johnson we trust...yeh right - a desperate performance from our PM.
		
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I Can’t believe anyone is taking red Jezza seriously


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2020)

Dando said:



			I Can’t believe anyone is taking red Jezza seriously
		
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I can't believe that anyone takes Johnson seriously...and he's Prime Minister.

And @Brian - I did watch - Johnson was utterly hopeless...and was speared by Javid...


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can't believe that anyone takes Johnson seriously...and he's Prime Minister.

And @Brian - I did watch - Johnson was utterly hopeless...and was speared by Javid...
		
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It shows how shite jezza is if Boris beat him


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## ger147 (Feb 26, 2020)

Dando said:



			I Can’t believe anyone is taking red Jezza seriously
		
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No-one is, reminds me of the scene outside a pub after closing time, Corbyn hanging around like the desperate drunk hoping he can get another drink even tho' the pub is closed.


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that many words of wisdom from our PM in PM Questions today...in fact Corbyn did rather well exposing Johnson over his invisibility for the last two weeks or so and lack of anything from him on the flooding - and of course lots of the usual nothing from Johnson on every other question asked - and a few uncomfortable words directed at him from Javid.  In Johnson we trust...yeh right - a desperate performance from our PM.
		
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I didn't see the same thing. IMO the UK is better off with a PM who concentrates on collegiate Cabinet responsibilities and expects the delegated relevant ministers to do their jobs.

Any PM visit would be criticised (probably by yourself) for having been a staged PR pantomime, visiting the wrong place and disrupting emergency services etc, etc. Such visits achieve nothing practical in reality.


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Suggest you re-watch it with an open mind.... if that's at all possible.
		
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There’s more chance of getting shite out of a rocking horse!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2020)

I'm surprised anyone bothers with PMQ's. It doesn't tell us anything, it is pantomime stuff only. A shame really, a wasted opportunity.

Someone claims Boris gets speared. He has an 80 seat majority, spear away, he doesn't care.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			I didn't see the same thing. IMO the UK is better off with a PM who concentrates on collegiate Cabinet responsibilities *and expects the delegated relevant ministers to do their jobs.*

Any PM visit would be criticised (probably by yourself) for having been a staged PR pantomime, visiting the wrong place and disrupting emergency services etc, etc. Such visits achieve nothing practical in reality.
		
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Which is what Javid said about the new Chancellor - he should be allowed to get on with his job 'without fear or favour' - as clearly he himself was not able to do...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what Javid said about the new Chancellor - he should be allowed to get on with his job 'without fear or favour' - as clearly he himself was not able to do...
		
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No one in Government should be getting on with their job without fear or favour. None of them are free agents to carry out their own personal policies, collective responsibility is the way a cabinet should operate and any of them wanting to do otherwise should be disciplined. Just like any executive position in business.


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## pendodave (Feb 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No one in Government should be getting on with their job without fear or favour. None of them are free agents to carry out their own personal policies, collective responsibility is the way a cabinet should operate and any of them wanting to do otherwise should be disciplined. Just like any executive position in business.
		
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Hmmm there's along and sorry history of disasters when leadership cultivates a culture where 'bad news' doesn't travel up the ladder... there's a balance, and there's every indication that no 10 is the wrong side of it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can't believe that anyone takes Johnson seriously...and he's Prime Minister.

And @Brian - I did watch - Johnson was utterly hopeless...and was speared by Javid...
		
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I did watch it too, and as much as I dislike Johnson and feel the U.K. has a poor PM, I’d say he convincingly won the first half of PMQ then traded blows 50-50.

As for the repeated line by Steptoe about insurance; since when has home insurance been the govt’s responsibility? If you fell for that one, it says a hell of a lot about your bias.

Listen to it again. Johnson replies on monies already spent, and are due to spend, hammers a nail into Corbyn. And then there was the reply to the oft asked “why hasn’t Cobra met?” It’s been raised at every Cabinet meeting. Does it need a Cobra meeting?

The only (pathetic) thing Corbyn scores on is why hasn’t Johnson visited S. Wales. What good does turning up in a pair of wellies do? It interrupts those on the ground grafting, and also stops Johnson working effectively whilst travelling.

Seriously, listen to Johnson’s replies without prejudging because of your take on the question. If you still think Johnson got hammered you need to seriously recalibrate your metrics.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what Javid said about the new Chancellor - he should be allowed to get on with his job 'without fear or favour' - as clearly he himself was not able to do...
		
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Really? That’s the best you can come up with? When Johnson formed his new govt-Cabinet Javid resigned before it even sat. And you think that gives Javid the inside line?

Yeah, of course it does....pathetic attempt to smear Johnson. You really need to find some objectivity. Like I said, I can’t stand Johnson but I fail to see what you have seen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Really? That’s the best you can come up with? When Johnson formed his new govt-Cabinet Javid resigned before it even sat. And you think that gives Javid the inside line?

Yeah, of course it does....pathetic attempt to smear Johnson. You really need to find some objectivity. Like I said, I can’t stand Johnson but I fail to see what you have seen.
		
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Fair enough...I'm not going to express any further my disdain for how he acts and what he says.  The People voted for him.  They can explain him.   He is Prime Minister - the country is faced with dealing with a couple of really serious issues and he is nowhere to be seen.  Well if that's what people voted for then fine.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough...I'm not going to express any further my disdain for how he acts and what he says.  The People voted for him.  They can explain him.   He is Prime Minister - the country is faced with dealing with a couple of really serious issues and he is nowhere to be seen.  Well if that's what people voted for then fine.
		
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Petulance doesn’t suit you. I agree with you about his character, and as I said pre-election, “Trumplite.” But I’ll measure him on what he does each time he does something, not start from a blinkered, biased perspective.


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## ger147 (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough...I'm not going to express any further my disdain for how he acts and what he says...
		
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Be careful you don't make promises you can't keep, you could leave yourself open to accusations of lying...


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Be careful you don't make promises you can't keep, you could leave yourself open to accusations of lying...
		
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It’ll be a “mis truth” not a lie and I bet it’ll last about as long his “I’m out” comments on the brexit thread 😂🤣


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I did watch it too, and as much as I dislike Johnson and feel the U.K. has a poor PM, I’d say he convincingly won the first half of PMQ then traded blows 50-50.

As for the repeated line by Steptoe about insurance; since when has home insurance been the govt’s responsibility? If you fell for that one, it says a hell of a lot about your bias.

Listen to it again. Johnson replies on monies already spent, and are due to spend, hammers a nail into Corbyn. And then there was the reply to the oft asked “why hasn’t Cobra met?” It’s been raised at every Cabinet meeting. Does it need a Cobra meeting?

The only (pathetic) thing Corbyn scores on is why hasn’t Johnson visited S. Wales. What good does turning up in a pair of wellies do? It interrupts those on the ground grafting, and also stops Johnson working effectively whilst travelling.

Seriously, listen to Johnson’s replies without prejudging because of your take on the question. If you still think Johnson got hammered you need to seriously recalibrate your metrics.
		
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I am amazed that there isn’t a government backed flood insurance scheme as some areas are pretty
Much uninsurable


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 26, 2020)

Dando said:



			I am amazed that there isn’t a government backed flood insurance scheme as some areas are pretty
Much uninsurable
		
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Flood Re, was set up in 2016 I believe.


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what Javid said about the new Chancellor - he should be allowed to get on with his job 'without fear or favour' - as clearly he himself was not able to do...
		
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I challenged you and I am quite happy to be challenged. But this is a pretty weak deflection.

IMO I would take your comments more seriously jf you avoided the emotional and (IMO) juvenile phrases. Johnson is the PM you do not have to be his friend but it might be a good idea to look past your emotions.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Hmmm there's along and sorry history of disasters when leadership cultivates a culture where 'bad news' doesn't travel up the ladder... there's a balance, and there's every indication that no 10 is the wrong side of it.
		
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Its nothing to do with bad news traveling up the ladder. As I explained its about collective responsibility, when you get news be it good or bad and collectively decide on a plan of action then all executives need to hold the company line or get out.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			I didn't see the same thing. IMO the UK is better off with a PM who concentrates on collegiate Cabinet responsibilities and expects the delegated relevant ministers to do their jobs.

Any PM visit would be criticised (probably by yourself) for having been a staged PR pantomime, visiting the wrong place and disrupting emergency services etc, etc. Such visits achieve nothing practical in reality.
		
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Two things learnt about Boris when Mayor... He likes a photo opportunity but he  also has a penchant for going AWOL when it matters...


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## Kellfire (Feb 27, 2020)

It’s sad that politics has to be a matter of winning or losing things like PMQs. You’d think that their end goals would be 95% the same albeit with different ways to get there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Be careful you don't make promises you can't keep, you could leave yourself open to accusations of lying...
		
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I don't lie - but might find myself expressing my contempt for his actions and utterances - but not at the moment


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## Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't lie - but might find myself expressing my contempt for his actions and utterances - but not at the moment 

Click to expand...

Give it till this afternoon then 😉


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## ger147 (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't lie -
		
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That's not your determination to make, that's for others to decide.

You have just confirmed that you made a deliberately untruthful statement yesterday, that you wouldn't do something any more whilst knowing full well that you actually will i.e. you told a lie.


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## Dando (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't lie - but might find myself expressing my contempt for his actions and utterances - but not at the moment 

Click to expand...

That didn’t last long did it 😂🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Give it till this afternoon then 😉
		
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We'll see.  Though I doubt it. 

[EDIT]Let's see what Johnson says about the Heathrow 3rd Runway objections now upheld...


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We'll see.  Though I doubt it.

[EDIT]Let's see what Johnson says about the Heathrow 3rd Runway objections now upheld...
		
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Heathrow expansion is another classic NIMBY issue. Clearly 'locals' will object ( I would) as will environmentalists. The question arises for all infrastructure projects (HS2, CroosRail, atomic generation, wind farms, etc) but without these disruptive improvements we will probably be disadvantaged in the future. Its a balancing act where the PM/Government has no chance of pleasing everyone.

Without infrastructure long-term projects we'd have no motorways, Underground, Felixstowe container port,  Channel Tunnel/Dover etc)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Heathrow expansion is another classic NIMBY issue. Clearly 'locals' will object ( I would) as will environmentalists. The question arises for all infrastructure projects (HS2, CroosRail, atomic generation, wind farms, etc) but without these disruptive improvements we will probably be disadvantaged in the future. Its a balancing act where the PM/Government has no chance of pleasing everyone.

Without infrastructure long-term projects we'd have no motorways, Underground, Felixstowe container port,  Channel Tunnel/Dover etc)
		
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Wonder what stance Johnson will now take.  Will he push back on the decision - or will he just go with it as it means he won't have to lie down in front of the diggers


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 27, 2020)

From what I have read it is a technicality, the govt simply need to come from a different angle, say they have taken into account environmental concerns and it's back on track.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

What the heck has Johnson been doing for the last two weeks - with all that has been going on the words of wisdom have been few and far between...so what's he been doing?

And still - with Coronovirus reaction in the public starting to escalate towards over-reaction and towards panic, where is Johnson telling us to Keep Calm and Carry On.  Even Trump has managed to do that.  And what has Johnson been saying to those so terribly impacted by the floods - his words of comfort and support.  Where is the Churchillian leadership he so admires...he doesn't need to be sploshing around in waders to give leadership and I am not sure that I have heard very much at all.

Come on Boris - where are you - what have you been doing - let's be hearing you!


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the heck has Johnson been doing for the last two weeks - with all that has been going on the words of wisdom have been few and far between...so what's he been doing?

And still - with Coronovirus reaction in the public starting to escalate towards over-reaction and towards panic, where is Johnson telling us to Keep Calm and Carry On.  Even Trump has managed to do that.  And what has Johnson been saying to those so terribly impacted by the floods - his words of comfort and support.  Where is the Churchillian leadership he so admires...he doesn't need to be sploshing around in waders to give leadership and I am not sure that I have heard very much at all.

Come on Boris - where are you - what have you been doing - let's be hearing you!
		
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No matter what he says or does you’d never be happy!


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2020)

Dando said:



			No matter what he says or does you’d never be happy!
		
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I'm sure if Boris said 'I resign' he would be happy....


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the heck has Johnson been doing for the last two weeks - with all that has been going on the words of wisdom have been few and far between...so what's he been doing?

And still - with Coronovirus reaction in the public starting to escalate towards over-reaction and towards panic, where is Johnson telling us to Keep Calm and Carry On.  Even Trump has managed to do that.  And what has Johnson been saying to those so terribly impacted by the floods - his words of comfort and support.  Where is the Churchillian leadership he so admires...he doesn't need to be sploshing around in waders to give leadership and I am not sure that I have heard very much at all.

Come on Boris - where are you - what have you been doing - let's be hearing you!
		
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Why not just Google "Boris Johnson news"... there's a list of what he's been doing recently. You'll get both sides of the story, the media slant about him going AWOL and the media slant about the work he's been doing.


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## Wolf (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the heck has Johnson been doing for the last two weeks - with all that has been going on the words of wisdom have been few and far between...so what's he been doing?

And still - with Coronovirus reaction in the public starting to escalate towards over-reaction and towards panic, where is Johnson telling us to Keep Calm and Carry On.  Even Trump has managed to do that.  And what has Johnson been saying to those so terribly impacted by the floods - his words of comfort and support.  Where is the Churchillian leadership he so admires...he doesn't need to be sploshing around in waders to give leadership and I am not sure that I have heard very much at all.

Come on Boris - where are you - what have you been doing - let's be hearing you!
		
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Yet there you were yesterday moaning about what Trump said about it and here you are today moaning Boris hasn't said anything about it 🙄

It really doesn't matter what either of them do all you want is to find fault in them. Maybe if you looked into other media sources outside of LBC you might find more balanced reporting on both sides of fence and as Hobbit says you'd actually see what he's been doing, but that would require you to take the blinkers off and we can't have that can we🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Yet there you were yesterday moaning about what Trump said about it and here you are today moaning Boris hasn't said anything about it 🙄

It really doesn't matter what either of them do all you want is to find fault in them. Maybe if you looked into other media sources outside of LBC you might find more balanced reporting on both sides of fence and as Hobbit says you'd actually see what he's been doing, but that would require you to take the blinkers off and we can't have that can we🙄
		
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Correct - I find it very difficult to take a balanced view of, or believe, anything Johnson says or does, as I just don't trust him one inch - just as many here find it difficult to take a balanced view on anything that Corbyn says of does - most probably for similar reasons.


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct - I find it very difficult to take a balanced view of, or believe, anything Johnson says or does, as I just don't trust him one inch - just as many here find it difficult to take a balanced view on anything that Corbyn says of does - most probably for similar reasons.
		
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Do you not think its a bit irrational to rant in the way you do on a Golf Forum -  unless you really only seek to get any sort of reaction rather than generate debate? 

I doubt that anything Johnson has done has had any direct and personal impact on yourself and that you know him personally. Perhaps you should try looking behind the media hype and do a bit more research before hitting the keys.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the heck has Johnson been doing for the last two weeks - with all that has been going on the words of wisdom have been few and far between...so what's he been doing?

And still - with Coronovirus reaction in the public starting to escalate towards over-reaction and towards panic, where is Johnson telling us to Keep Calm and Carry On.  Even Trump has managed to do that.  And what has Johnson been saying to those so terribly impacted by the floods - his words of comfort and support.  Where is the Churchillian leadership he so admires...he doesn't need to be sploshing around in waders to give leadership and I am not sure that I have heard very much at all.

Come on Boris - where are you - what have you been doing - let's be hearing you!
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct - I find it very difficult to take a balanced view of, or believe, anything Johnson says or does, as I just don't trust him one inch - just as many here find it difficult to take a balanced view on anything that Corbyn says of does - most probably for similar reasons.
		
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So you want him to make a statement just so that you can put your usual biased/unbalanced spin on what he has said and not believe him?

The Health Secretary gave a statement in the HoCs after PMQs in regards to Coronavirus and Environment Secretary George Eustice has been tasked with leading the response to the floods. Isn't part of good leadership being able to delegate and then letting the people get on with the roles that you've delegated?


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct - I find it very difficult to take a balanced view of, or believe, anything Johnson says or does, as I just don't trust him one inch - just as many here find it difficult to take a balanced view on anything that Corbyn says of does - most probably for similar reasons.
		
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Mmm, does someone have a passive-aggressive complex?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 28, 2020)

Nobody afflicted with the disease of truth-telling would ever get far enough in politics to be known nationally in a nation like the UK or US.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you want him to make a statement just so that you can put your usual biased/unbalanced spin on what he has said and not believe him?

The Health Secretary gave a statement in the HoCs after PMQs in regards to Coronavirus and Environment Secretary George Eustice has been tasked with leading the response to the floods. Isn't part of good leadership being able to delegate and then letting the people get on with the roles that you've delegated?
		
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I think the current govt is quite interesting. Johnson is giving ministers more responsibility and allowing them more freedom than others before. I can not work out if he is being hidden away or whether he is just trusting his ministers in a very good managerial manner. I hope it is the latter.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you want him to make a statement just so that you can put your usual biased/unbalanced spin on what he has said and not believe him?

The Health Secretary gave a statement in the HoCs after PMQs in regards to Coronavirus and Environment Secretary George Eustice has been tasked with leading the response to the floods. Isn't part of good leadership being able to delegate and then letting the people get on with the roles that you've delegated?
		
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He won't be happy until he sees Boris in a boat down Tewkesbury high street wearing a mask and flippers.  On second thoughts he would probably accuse him of sitting in the wrong part of the boat.


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## chrisd (Feb 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He won't be happy until he sees Boris in a boat down Tewkesbury high street wearing a mask and flippers.  On second thoughts he would probably accuse him of sitting in the wrong part of the boat.
		
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........ or up the creek without a paddle  👍


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			........ or up the creek without a paddle  👍
		
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The creek in Tewkesbury is currently in the car park between cafe nero and lidl


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think the current govt is quite interesting. Johnson is giving ministers more responsibility and allowing them more freedom than others before. I can not work out if he is being hidden away or whether he is just trusting his ministers in a very good managerial manner. I hope it is the latter.
		
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Early days yet but I feel its the most together Cabinet for quite some time. Certainly less leaks and maybe more corporate responsibility. Perhaps not my political flavour but here's hoping it goes well.


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think the current govt is quite interesting. Johnson is giving ministers more responsibility and allowing them more freedom than others before. I can not work out if he is being hidden away or whether he is just trusting his ministers in a very good managerial manner. I hope it is the latter.
		
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That  is his (IMO) style. People I know at the GLC speak well of  working  for him when he  was Mayor.


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## Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

Just heard on radio that Boris has announced he and his fiancee are expecting a we baby in the summer and plan to get married.


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## Dando (Feb 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just heard on radio that Boris has announced he and his fiancee are expecting a we baby in the summer and plan to get married.
		
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No doubt that’ll be wrong!


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## Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

Dando said:



			No doubt that’ll be wrong!
		
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Oh you know some people are going to have a moan saying he should concentrate other things or have a moan when he's busy at the birth that he should be visiting a village in middle of nowhere.


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## User62651 (Feb 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just heard on radio that Boris has announced he and his fiancee are expecting a we baby in the summer and plan to get married.
		
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BBC have it, brave lady, he just got the divorce concluded couple of weeks back.
Dad at 56? Fair play but don't envy him with that, fair age for the dad stuff.


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## chrisd (Feb 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh you know some people are going to have a moan saying he should concentrate other things or have a moan when he's busy at the birth that he should be visiting a village in middle of nowhere.
		
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I guess they'll be happy that he's there when the waters break 😉😉


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## Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I guess they'll be happy that he's there when the waters break 😉😉
		
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Best get his waders out 😉😂


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## Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			BBC have it, brave lady, he just got the divorce concluded couple of weeks back.
Dad at 56? Fair play but don't envy him with that, fair age for the dad stuff.
		
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I wouldn't fancy the sleepless nights at that age to be fair. Also didn't realise the age gap between them, I thought inwas doing well Mrs Wolf being 14yrs younger, fair play to Boris..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

He doesn't talk about his children or how many he has.  Well at least we now know that he will have +1.  As far as getting engaged before he is divorced...not something I'd do...but then such mere details or considerations are not for our PM.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn't talk about his children or how many he has.  Well at least we now know that he will have +1.  As far as getting engaged before he is divorced...not something I'd do...but then such mere details or considerations are not for our PM.
		
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Realise from many of your 20000+ posts he is not your favourite person.

However from your background and Christianity views perhaps once offer congratulation.

Surely it would not be that difficult.

BTW congratulations PM hope everything goes well for you both.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Realise from many of your 20000+ posts he is not your favourite person.

However from your background and Christianity views perhaps once offer congratulation.

Surely it would not be that difficult.

BTW congratulations PM hope everything goes well for you both.
		
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 He needs  some urgent  counciling.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Realise from many of your 20000+ posts he is not your favourite person.

However from your background and Christianity views perhaps once offer congratulation.

Surely it would not be that difficult.

BTW congratulations PM hope everything goes well for you both.
		
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I congratulate the couple on their good news - I am sure that they are delighted.  Christian belief considerations could have some being very critical.  But I'm not going down that track.  I simply said that I might not get engaged whilst I was not divorced,  but hey - Johnson is Johnson - he has his own morals.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He needs  some urgent  counciling.
		
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I'll thank you but I don't


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## Hobbit (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn't talk about his children or how many he has.  Well at least we now know that he will have +1.  As far as getting engaged before he is divorced...not something I'd do...but then such mere details or considerations are not for our PM.
		
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That's not like you to criticise without looking at the facts first

Johnson spoke about his 4 children when discussing his Decree Nisi with reporters September 2018. Bear in mind his ex-wife is the applicant. She allowed more than a year to pass, the time limit on applying for the Decree Absolute, whilst the solicitors for both parties argued the toss on the financial settlement. That settlement was agreed and the family court judge granted an extension to the Nisi and permission for the ex-wife to apply for the Absolute with immediate effect.

Johnson announced the intention to marry 11 days after the last court hearing. If Ms Wheeler, the ex-wife, had applied for the Absolute immediately the settlement was ratified the Absolute would have been granted within 7 days.

A question; should Johnson be 'forced' to wait due to his ex-wife not pushing for the Absolute?

Next you'll be talking about leather pants and crocadile skin handbags.... seriously, at this level again. Pathetic. And yes, talking to someone about your passive-aggressive obsession wouldn't be a bad idea.


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## robinthehood (Mar 2, 2020)

Oof a dad again at 56.... can't imagine having a teenager to argue with when I'm 70🤣


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## patricks148 (Mar 2, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Oof a dad again at 56.... can't imagine having a teenager to argue with when I'm 70🤣
		
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why would he worry he won't be around.... will moved on long before then


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll thank you but I don't
		
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I genuinely think you do. It cant be healthy letting Boris and Trump dominate your mindset.


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## Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn't talk about his children or how many he has.  Well at least we now know that he will have +1.  As far as getting engaged before he is divorced...not something I'd do...but then such mere details or considerations are not for our PM.
		
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Johnson has spoken about his children previously as Hobbit mentioned above with goid facts about the whole situation. But even if he hadn't spoken about his children why on earth would that be something to dig him out about, they're his children and he doesn't need to show public displays of affection in order for them to know what they mean to him nor does he need anyone else's approval of it. What does how many he has do with anything either provided he gives them the love they need in private its absolutely nobody business or place to judge him on his parenting or his choice of timing to get engaged. These are 2 postives currently going on for Boris and yet you're still being overly judgemental and having little digs.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh you know some people are going to have a moan saying he should concentrate other things or have a moan when he's busy at the birth that he should be visiting a village in middle of nowhere.
		
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Prioritising is fine... Intended avoidance to escape scrutiny is questionable...


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## Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Prioritising is fine... Intended avoidance to escape scrutiny is questionable...
		
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And you can factually say he's avoiding it can you or is he merely letting the allocated cabinet ministers get on with their jobs.. Neither of us can say which for certain. But I'd also prefer to congratulate someone on having a child than think it was conceived as an avoidance tactic.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And you can factually say he's avoiding it can you or is he merely letting the allocated cabinet ministers get on with their jobs.. Neither of us can say which for certain. But I'd also prefer to congratulate someone on having a child than think it was conceived as an avoidance tactic.
		
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Attending the  birth would be "prioritising" with which there should be no issue...
Boris, though, has a penchant for going AWOL for which there should be scrutiny...


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I congratulate the couple on their good news - I am sure that they are delighted.  Christian belief considerations could have some being very critical.  But I'm not going down that track.  I simply said that I might not get engaged whilst I was not divorced,  *but hey - Johnson is Johnson - he has his own morals.*

Click to expand...

Your response was fine (IMO) however the last 5 words undermined your 'congratulations' by inferring the PM's morals were questionable - why was that necessary?


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## patricks148 (Mar 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Your response was fine (IMO) however the last 5 words undermined your 'congratulations' by inferring the PM's morals were questionable - why was that necessary?
		
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yeah, it s not like he's a serial liar and adulterer


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			yeah, it s not like he's a serial liar and adulterer

Click to expand...

correct - I'd have thought that questions about the PM personal morals in this context should not need asking.  The answers should be obvious to anyone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2020)

How many Scots Tories does it take to change a light bulb ?
None
Boris Johnson lied to them, told them he had changed it so they sat in the dark and applauded him.


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## gmc40 (Mar 2, 2020)

Looks like she has history. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-5170506...s/politics&link_location=live-reporting-story


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many Scots Tories does it take to change a light bulb ?
None
Boris Johnson lied to them, told them he had changed it so they sat in the dark and applauded him.
		
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What a pathetic post.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			yeah, it s not like he's a serial liar and adulterer

Click to expand...

Almost as pathetic as Doons, try harder.


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## bluewolf (Mar 3, 2020)

I'm getting confused now (not overly difficult I suppose). It appears to be ever so bad mannered to insinuate terrible things about our current PM, but was ever so funny and "right on" to say terrible things about Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn (among others).

How about we all stop insulting people just because we don't like them? Or, we allow everyone to insult whoever they want without getting our knickers wet? I'm easy either way really...


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## pendodave (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Almost as pathetic as Doons, try harder.
		
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With respect, be IS both a serial adulterer and a liar.
It's not so much an insult as a basic description. No particular point of view required.


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## patricks148 (Mar 3, 2020)

pendodave said:



			With respect, be IS both a serial adulterer and a liar.
It's not so much an insult as a basic description. No particular point of view required.
		
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you are forgetting dear boy, these Tory Boy Right wingers find the truth  insulting and beyonde their understanding, its why we have had 10 years of lies from them


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I'm getting confused now (not overly difficult I suppose). It appears to be ever so bad mannered to insinuate terrible things about our current PM, but was ever so funny and "right on" to say terrible things about Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn (among others).

How about we all stop insulting people just because we don't like them? *Or, we allow everyone to insult whoever they want without getting our knickers wet?* I'm easy either way really...
		
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Can I go for the latter.  Tosser.


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## bluewolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I go for the latter.  Tosser. 

Click to expand...

Feel free.. I'm virtually uninsultable (sp), and I don't need any snowflakes jumping in to protect me from your awful words


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Feel free.. *I'm virtually uninsultable* (sp), and I don't need any snowflakes jumping in to protect me from your awful words 

Click to expand...

OK, you asked for it, I'm bringing out the big guns.     Tory!

I also don't understand why people don't just block others that obviously wind them up every time they post. It's as if they want to get angry as that is all they have left in life to hold on to, getting angry as someone on a golf forum.


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## robinthehood (Mar 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, you asked for it, I'm bringing out the big guns.     Tory!

I also don't understand why people don't just block others that obviously wind them up every time they post. It's as if they want to get angry as that is all they have left in life to hold on to, getting angry as someone on a golf forum.
		
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I find blocking makes the forum look odd. I just scroll straight past a number of posters.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, you asked for it, I'm bringing out the big guns.     Tory!

I also don't understand why people don't just block others that obviously wind them up every time they post. It's as if they want to get angry as that is all they have left in life to hold on to, getting angry as someone on a golf forum.
		
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However you dress it up. We dont get on with everyone. This is a social media platform. Similar to fb in where you hope to be educated. However as with fb you dont have to be " friends" with everyone. Dont mean you dont like them. Just means life is better without them.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 3, 2020)

Why do I have an image of Bojos child looking like Vicky Pollard 😖


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2020)

IMO 'insults' are simply a way that weak minded people make themselves feel superior; in reality it actually achieves the reverse


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## Kellfire (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO 'insults' are simply a way that weak minded people make themselves feel superior; in reality it actually achieves the reverse
		
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 Like when you call people weak minded?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO 'insults' are simply a way that weak minded people make themselves feel superior; in reality it actually achieves the reverse
		
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Is calling someone a serial liar and adulterer because they are of a different political persuasion OK then. It's amusing how those who make the loudest condemnations of insult calling are the most prolific.


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## patricks148 (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is calling someone a serial liar and adulterer because they are of a different political persuasion OK then. It's amusing how those who make the loudest condemnations of insult calling are the most prolific.
		
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but he is a a serial liar and adulterer, i'm not insulting him i'm stating a fact


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## bluewolf (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is calling someone a serial liar and adulterer because they are of a different political persuasion OK then. It's amusing how those who make the loudest condemnations of insult calling are the most prolific.
		
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I suspect that whilst the insult may have been politically motivated, the reason that particular choice of words was used was because Boris has a proven history of avoiding the truth and being loose with his relationship responsibilities. I couldn't care less really. I have used every available fact to form my own opinion of the man. But I'll judge him on his actions now, and I don't like what I'm seeing.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is calling someone a serial liar and adulterer because they are of a different political persuasion OK then. It's amusing how those who make the loudest condemnations of insult calling are the most prolific.
		
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If your comment is aimed at me I'd ask that you show where I've insulted you or anyone?


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## patricks148 (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			If your comment is aimed at me I'd ask that you show where I've insulted you or anyone?
		
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what about the people you called weak minded a few mis ago?


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what about the people you called weak minded a few mis ago?
		
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A generalised disparagement not a personal denigration.


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## patricks148 (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			A generalised disparagement not a personal denigration.
		
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i think you were right the first time


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			If your comment is aimed at me I'd ask that you show where I've insulted you or anyone?
		
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It wasn't directed at you at all.


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## patricks148 (Mar 3, 2020)

I have to say, with the impending Corona Virus about to hit, I'm rather glad Boris has promised those 40 new Hospitals and 50,000 new nurses, they will come in handy


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I have to say, with the impending Corona Virus about to hit, I'm rather glad Boris has promised those 40 new Hospitals and 50,000 new nurses, they will come in handy
		
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I wonder if he will build the first one within a month like the Chinese.
Mind you if 80% of the new nurses have the virus what do we do then.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that whilst the insult may have been politically motivated, the reason that particular choice of words was used was because Boris has a proven history of avoiding the truth and being loose with his relationship responsibilities. I couldn't care less really. I have used every available fact to form my own opinion of the man. But I'll judge him on his actions now, and I don't like what I'm seeing.
		
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Fair comment.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I have to say, with the impending Corona Virus about to hit, I'm rather glad Boris has promised those 40 new Hospitals and 50,000 new nurses, they will come in handy
		
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Grow up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

More than happy that Johnson has said he probably take two weeks paternal leave around birth of his next sprog.  Though who is his cover...DRaab?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			More than happy that Johnson has said he probably take two weeks paternal leave around birth of his next sprog.  Though who is his cover...DRaab?
		
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Why does it matter to you?


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## Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why does it matter to you?
		
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Needs to know who he can direct his bias towards for 2 weeks when Boris becomes a father again. Can't possibly just give it a rest..


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 3, 2020)

SWLH & Socket

Here we are yet again, pack it in the both of you,

Getting royally fed up of seeing you two bickering.

Time to stop


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			SWLH & Socket

Here we are yet again, pack it in the both of you,

Getting royally fed up of seeing you two bickering.

Time to stop
		
Click to expand...

You should "Fragger" the pair of them. Apologies to anyone who now has an unwanted image in their mind. 

Oh, and it's SiLH not SWLH, not that I would ever consider correcting a Mod.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I find blocking makes the forum look odd. I just scroll straight past a number of posters.
		
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But not as odd as the sight of grown men bickering at a level that primary school children would find a bit immature 😉


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## patricks148 (Mar 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But not as odd as the sight of grown men bickering at a level that primary school children would find a bit immature 😉
		
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i do find it amusing that serveral of the right wing types on here are quite happy to make disparaging and insulting remarks and like those remarks by others when its against someone who  has political views they don't agree with, yet Boris's short comings are verboten..... double standards me thinks... a bit like when pointed out a fact about Boris it was "pathetic" yet someone else said the same and it was "fair Comment"


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## 2blue (Mar 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i do find it amusing that serveral of the right wing types on here are quite happy to make disparaging and insulting remarks and like those remarks by others when its against someone who  has political views they don't agree with, yet Boris's short comings are verboten..... double standards me thinks... a bit like when pointed out a fact about Boris it was "pathetic" yet someone else said the same and it was "fair Comment"
		
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Aye, he dinar his dibs from his dobs. 🤣🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why does it matter to you?
		
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It doesn't - but it will matter to some.  I'm delighted for him and his partner, and wish them well at the birth of their child.  And I was genuine in asking who'd be in charge - I'm think it's DRaab - but not sure.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It doesn't - but it will matter to some.  I'm delighted for him and his partner, and wish them well at the birth of their child.  And I was genuine in asking who'd be in charge - I'm think it's DRaab - but not sure.
		
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I'd of thought DomCum remained in charge irrespective of any absence on Boris's part...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I'd of thought DomCum remained in charge irrespective of any absence on Boris's part...
		
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Were that not too close to the truth it might be funny that an unelected and potentially unhihibited and unconstrained member of the public could be navigating the course of the good ship Britannia - albeit under the quasi-Captaincy of such as Raab - whist Boris is absent looking after mum and sprog <shrugs>


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Were that not too close to the truth it might be funny that an unelected and potentially unhihibited and unconstrained member of the *EU* could be navigating the course of the good ship *Eurotania*

Click to expand...

 FTFY


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			FTFY
		
Click to expand...

IWNB (it was not broken)


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2020)

Those that devour political biographies, especially from the last 40 years, might wonder just what exactly was Alastair Campbell's influence was in the Blair era. Or maybe they won't if they've devoured all they can. Mandelson, though elected, was THE behind the scenes hatchet man, and makes Cummings look like the tooth fairy - and that might be  from the horse's mouth...

I don't know what the extent is of Cummings' influence, although having heard him speak I wouldn't want him next to me. However, is he really the power behind the wheel or is a lot of it hype? Maybe its something in between. Is Boris a puppet on a string or does he pull Cummings' strings? 

Here's a rhetorical question/though; for someone who follows the goings on in govt and Cabinet, why do I know very little of the direction the govt is going yet hear constantly exactly what Cummings' is doing? Media mischief or factual reporting? Probably somewhere in between. But what are the true facts?

Well, the lefties will say one thing won't they, and the Tory boys something else.

But think back to each of the last PM's and leaders of the opposition, and ask yourself how many SPADS were sacked because of their interference. Cummings isn't a new phenomenon.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Those that devour political biographies, especially from the last 40 years, might wonder just what exactly was Alastair Campbell's influence was in the Blair era. Or maybe they won't if they've devoured all they can. Mandelson, though elected, was THE behind the scenes hatchet man, and makes Cummings look like the tooth fairy - and that might be  from the horse's mouth...

I don't know what the extent is of Cummings' influence, although having heard him speak I wouldn't want him next to me. However, is he really the power behind the wheel or is a lot of it hype? Maybe its something in between. Is Boris a puppet on a string or does he pull Cummings' strings?

Here's a rhetorical question/though; for someone who follows the goings on in govt and Cabinet, why do I know very little of the direction the govt is going yet hear constantly exactly what Cummings' is doing? Media mischief or factual reporting? Probably somewhere in between. But what are the true facts?

Well, the lefties will say one thing won't they, and the Tory boys something else.

But think back to each of the last PM's and leaders of the opposition, and ask yourself how many SPADS were sacked because of their interference. Cummings isn't a new phenomenon.
		
Click to expand...

Not doubting anything you’ve put/said about previous Governments/PM’s etc, but maybe Cummings is partly responsible for his profile and at the same time he is unfortunate in the way the media/social media puts people behind the scenes under more scrutiny.

I don’t remember any of the previous persons in his position being so constantly in the spotlight, certainly there were times previously when some of his types were front and centre in the media, but not at the rate he appears to be.

I also don’t think his “blogs” and what he publish’s help his image as at times, they are being translated (rightly and wrongly) in to Government Policy.

Maybe the credit or blame for the public perception of the relationship he and boris have, has been by design or fault.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Those that devour political biographies, especially from the last 40 years, might wonder just what exactly was Alastair Campbell's influence was in the Blair era. Or maybe they won't if they've devoured all they can. Mandelson, though elected, was THE behind the scenes hatchet man, and makes Cummings look like the tooth fairy - and that might be  from the horse's mouth...

I don't know what the extent is of Cummings' influence, although having heard him speak I wouldn't want him next to me. However, is he really the power behind the wheel or is a lot of it hype? Maybe its something in between. Is Boris a puppet on a string or does he pull Cummings' strings?

Here's a rhetorical question/though; for someone who follows the goings on in govt and Cabinet, why do I know very little of the direction the govt is going yet hear constantly exactly what Cummings' is doing? Media mischief or factual reporting? Probably somewhere in between. But what are the true facts?

Well, the lefties will say one thing won't they, and the Tory boys something else.

But think back to each of the last PM's and leaders of the opposition, and ask yourself how many SPADS were sacked because of their interference. Cummings isn't a new phenomenon.
		
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I think you are correct, hes not a new phenomenon, the way the media works now is a new phenomenon.


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you are correct, hes not a new phenomenon, the way the media works now is a new phenomenon.
		
Click to expand...

Its not just in politics. The media are making and breaking politicians, celebs and sports people every day. Some of the stories no doubt have a basis in fact but the spin is horrendous.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2020)

I see the Muslim Council of Britain has today handed a dossier detailing allegations against over 300 people in the tory party to the EHCR over claims of Islamophobia.

This follows on from the dossier given to the EHCR in may containing over 150 allegations, the EHCR have stated they are still waiting for the tory party to publish the terms of reference to their independent review which the EHCR will then consider as part of their decision making process.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2020)

How big would be a dossier detailing allegations over claims of Christianaphobia?  Much bigger I would suggest but aparantly acceptable in our new world of selective diversity.


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How big would be a dossier detailing allegations over claims of Christianaphobia?  Much bigger I would suggest but aparantly acceptable in our new world of selective diversity.
		
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Surely you want Islamaphobia investigated and if found to be true, the appropriate action taken?


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I see the Muslim Council of Britain has today handed a dossier detailing allegations against over 300 people in the tory party to the EHCR over claims of Islamophobia.

This follows on from the dossier given to the EHCR in may containing over 150 allegations, the EHCR have stated they are still waiting for the tory party to publish the terms of reference to their independent review which the EHCR will then consider as part of their decision making process.
		
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stand by for classic Tory deflection and no doubt,,,, "But Labour are anti semitic"


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			stand by for classic Tory deflection and no doubt,,,, "But Labour are anti semitic"
		
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I don't think anyone can reasonably deflect or defend it. Labour have had their antisemitism problems and have rightfully been called out on it, but equally Tory party should be held accountable with appropriate actions taken against the islamaphobic behaviour. Nobody should be persecuted, derided or singled out for their religious beliefs whether they be Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or any other religious denominations.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I don't think anyone can reasonably deflect or defend it. Labour have had their antisemitism problems and have rightfully been called out on it, but equally Tory party should be held accountable with appropriate actions taken against the islamaphobic behaviour. Nobody should be persecuted, derided or singled out for their religious beliefs whether they be Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or any other religious denominations.
		
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what about the classic case  3 post ago?


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what about the classic case  3 post ago?
		
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Case of someone we all know who blames immigration for most things and says more about their lack of acceptance of others beliefs. A case of the sort of person who should be held accountable for an unwillingness to see others faiths being derided by a party or social politic agenda that meets their personal criteria. I'd also say that wasn't a reasonable defence but a downright pathetic statement. 

I stand by my point nobody no matter what religion should have to accept or be party to this behavior no matter what  other peoples beliefs are, everyone is entitled to their faith and not to face persecution for it.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Case of someone we all know who blames immigration for most things and says more about their lack of acceptance of others beliefs. A case of the sort of person who should be held accountable for an unwillingness to see others faiths being derided by a party or social politic agenda that meets their personal criteria. I'd also say that wasn't a reasonable defence but a downright pathetic statement.

I stand by my point nobody no matter what religion should have to accept or be party to this behavior no matter what  other peoples beliefs are, everyone is entitled to their faith and not to face persecution for it.
		
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i agree but as this report shows this point of veiw isn't uncommon with Tory supporters


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i agree but as this report shows this point of veiw isn't uncommon with Tory supporters
		
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Problem with that is it gets skewed because its a very right wing agenda and view that foreigners are the enemy, that all terrorism is purely from Islam etc so you will have Tories being followed by many right wing bellends like Tommy Robinson, but that doesn't mean all Tory followers are the same. We have ti remember to be balanced, it's easy to blanket blame any Tory voter with the same brush but for as many bad ones there may be there will be  equal number that can't stand that type of agenda.

Same can be said for Labour's antisemitism brigade they're abhorrent but again not all Labour followers are anti semitic and don't deserve to be in the same bracket as those that were/are guilty of what occurred.

Problem here is there will be Tory supporters saying Labour are anti semitic, Labour supporters saying Tories are anti islam. Because it's easier ro be childish and label everyone the same whereas adults will accept there have be issues on both sides that need addressing, rooting out and punishing for it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Problem with that is it gets skewed because its a very right wing agenda and view that foreigners are the enemy, that all terrorism is purely from Islam etc so you will have Tories being followed by many right wing bellends like Tommy Robinson, but that doesn't mean all Tory followers are the same. We have ti remember to be balanced, it's easy to blanket blame any Tory voter with the same brush but for as many bad ones there may be there will be  equal number that can't stand that type of agenda.

Same can be said for Labour's antisemitism brigade they're abhorrent but again not all Labour followers are anti semitic and don't deserve to be in the same bracket as those that were/are guilty of what occurred.

Problem here is there will be Tory supporters saying Labour are anti semitic, Labour supporters saying Tories are anti islam. Because it's easier ro be childish and label everyone the same whereas adults will accept there have be issues on both sides that need addressing, rooting out and punishing for it.
		
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It doesn't take a huge amount of research to find examples of Tory antisemitism and of Labour Islamaphobia. We can narrowly define it with labels like that, and there's nowt wrong with doing so, but I'm inclined to think that its just plain racism being exhibited in both parties. Turning it into a willy waving exercise, from either side, just deflects away from the need to address it firmly.

As an aside, I wait with baited breath to see if the BBC highlight the Islamaphobia in the Tory party as much as they highlighted antisemitism in the Labour party.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Problem with that is it gets skewed because its a very right wing agenda and view that foreigners are the enemy, that all terrorism is purely from Islam etc so you will have Tories being followed by many right wing bellends like Tommy Robinson, but that doesn't mean all Tory followers are the same. We have ti remember to be balanced, it's easy to blanket blame any Tory voter with the same brush but for as many bad ones there may be there will be  equal number that can't stand that type of agenda.

Same can be said for Labour's antisemitism brigade they're abhorrent but again not all Labour followers are anti semitic and don't deserve to be in the same bracket as those that were/are guilty of what occurred.

Problem here is there will be Tory supporters saying Labour are anti semitic, Labour supporters saying Tories are anti islam. Because it's easier ro be childish and label everyone the same whereas adults will accept there have be issues on both sides that need addressing, rooting out and punishing for it.
		
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i never said all tory's i said it wasn't uncommon, as for the labour jibe, that is a bit of a misnoma, the term is now defined asso include anything anti Israel in the case of most if not all the cases are Anti Israel, in fact i know a couple of guys who are jewish and anti israel, but this def they are anti semitic


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It doesn't take a huge amount of research to find examples of Tory antisemitism and of Labour Islamaphobia. We can narrowly define it with labels like that, and there's nowt wrong with doing so, but I'm inclined to think that its just plain racism being exhibited in both parties. Turning it into a willy waving exercise, from either side, just deflects away from the need to address it firmly.

As an aside, I wait with baited breath to see if the BBC highlight the Islamaphobia in the Tory party as much as they highlighted antisemitism in the Labour party.
		
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Absolutely agree with you. Issues on both sides and probably in other parties to, wherever you have people there will be some that have issues and all need weeding out. The willy waving was kind of my point both sides will do it at each other but ultimately need get their own houses in order, as for the BBC I wouldn't hold my breath with their recent records.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How big would be a dossier detailing allegations over claims of Christianaphobia?  Much bigger I would suggest but aparantly acceptable in our new world of selective diversity.
		
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What is Christianaphobia?  If it is related to disparaging or belittling of Christian faith or beliefs and of those holding such beliefs, then I don’t have to look very far for it. The good news is that if it is that then, at least in this country, it seems to have little impact - unlike many instances of Islamophobia which is often manifest in unpleasant ways, and with significant impact.


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is Christianaphobia?  If it is related to disparaging or belittling of Christian faith or beliefs and of those holding such beliefs, then I don’t have to look very far for it. The good news is that if it is that then, at least in this country, it seems to have little impact - unlike many instances of Islamophobia which is often manifest in unpleasant ways, and with significant impact.
		
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Borough Market, London Bridge, Lee Rigby, Manchester Arena, Keith Palmer... try walking in Bradford city centre late of an evening(first hand experience) and the centre of Luton on a Saturday...  little impact? really?

Maybe you missed them Hugh but there's idiots on all sides, and I'm yet to see many Imams hacked to death or bombs going off in mosques.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely agree with you. Issues on both sides and probably in other parties to, wherever you have people there will be some that have issues and all need weeding out. The willy waving was kind of my point both sides will do it at each other but ultimately need get their own houses in order, as for the BBC I wouldn't hold my breath with their recent records.
		
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well as long as the current definition of anti Semitism is in place it will always exist esp with israels foreign policy and continuing human rights violations


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			well as long as the current definition of anti Semitism is in place it will always exist esp with israels foreign policy and continuing human rights violations
		
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Therein is another issue where people are actually hiding behind religion which is also wrong. We need to be brave enough to understand not agreeing with Israel policies on Palestine, Gaza etc isn't being antisemitic but actually pro human life and being non tolerant of other forms of persecution. What you said earlier is spot on being anti Israel isn't being anti semetic.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Borough Market, London Bridge, Lee Rigby, Manchester Arena, Keith Palmer... try walking in Bradford city centre late of an evening(first hand experience) and the centre of Luton on a Saturday...  little impact? really?

Maybe you missed them Hugh but there's idiots on all sides, and I'm yet to see many Imams hacked to death or bombs going off in mosques.
		
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Is that Christianaphobia? Some of those Terrorist attacks have killed people from all religious backgrounds and not simply targeted Christians.

Some of those attacks are more attacks on Western Culture than Religious ideology or simply because of a uniform they wore rather than the person in it.

No doubt there are those opposed to Christianity and what it stands for, but not every terrorist attack against us can be put under that banner imo.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Therein is another issue where people are actually hiding behind religion which is also wrong. We need to be brave enough to understand not agreeing with Israel policies on Palestine, Gaza etc isn't being antisemitic but actually pro human life and being non tolerant of other forms of persecution. What you said earlier is spot on being anti Israel isn't being anti semetic.
		
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but by definition you arefor those remarks and many of the supposed cases against labour members are for the same thing, the parts of the press loved branding labour and Corbyn as Marxist and the same time Anti Semitic.... forgetting that Karl Marx was a Jew


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Borough Market, London Bridge, Lee Rigby, Manchester Arena, Keith Palmer... try walking in Bradford city centre late of an evening(first hand experience) and the centre of Luton on a Saturday...  little impact? really?

Maybe you missed them Hugh but there's idiots on all sides, and I'm yet to see many Imams hacked to death or bombs going off in mosques.
		
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I wasn’t really seeing that sort of murderous action as Christianophobia in the context of this discussion but clearly it is related.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but by definition you arefor those remarks and many of the supposed cases against labour members are for the same thing, the parts of the press loved branding labour and Corbyn as Marxist and the same time Anti Semitic.... forgetting that Karl Marx was a Jew

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Many reasons why I can't stand Corbyn and does himself no favours. But there's no accounting for idiots that cannot see the flaws in their own statements such as the Marxist comment. I'd also argue most weren't saying Corbyn was antisemitic but more issue that he didn't deal with the actual antisemitism issues that arose amongst some of his party members. Which is why Boris now needs to stand up confront these allegations and deal with the people accused.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Many reasons why I can't stand Corbyn and does himself no favours. But there's no accounting for idiots that cannot see the flaws in their own statements such as the Marxist comment. I'd also argue most weren't saying Corbyn was antisemitic but more issue that *he didn't deal with the actual antisemitism issues that arose amongst some of his party members.* Which is why Boris now needs to stand up confront these allegations and deal with the people accused.
		
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but this just proves the point, many of those where against Israel, which he prob agrees with how do you deal with a false agenda and a skewed definition of what is actually  anti semitism?? its a shame the press didn't bring up the accusations when Ed Milliband was leader... wonder why that was


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but this just proves the point, many of those where against Israel, which he prob agrees with how do you deal with a false agenda and a skewed definition of what is actually  anti semitism?? its a shame the press didn't bring up the accusations when Ed Milliband was leader... wonder why that was

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Quite easily dealt with instead of keeping silent and seemingly doing nothing which ultimately undermined him to many of Labour's own voters, he should have had the balls to come out and address it stating the issues they had with a Israels policies but that he would address the other actual antisemitic issues. Very similar to his stance on Brexit he avoided over and over again the answering where he stood on it an ultimately his inability to address his actual leadership stance on big questions cost him.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Quite easily dealt with instead of keeping silent and seemingly doing nothing which ultimately undermined him to many of Labour's own voters, he should have had the balls to come out and address it stating the issues they had with a Israels policies but that he would address the other actual antisemitic issues. Very similar to his stance on Brexit he avoided over and over again the answering where he stood on it an ultimately his inability to address his actual leadership stance on big questions cost him.
		
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they did, it was brought up many times and the reason given, that didn't stop the right wing press and the tory's using it as a beating stick and the electorate beliving it

there were many resons why he didn't win... the beard being the most important as far as i was concerned

anyway i voted for the woman who gets refered as half well known comedy double act half that dresses and a small boy


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Quite easily dealt with instead of keeping silent and seemingly doing nothing which ultimately undermined him to many of Labour's own voters, he should have had the balls to come out and address it stating the issues they had with a Israels policies but that he would address the other actual antisemitic issues. Very similar to his stance on Brexit he avoided over and over again the answering where he stood on it an ultimately his inability to address his actual leadership stance on big questions cost him.
		
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Unfortunately the press wouldn’t allow it, how many times did he apologise and was still asked to repeat it, how many times did he state what the Labour Party were doing about it? How often were the statements from Jews who supported him shown?

The Media found a stick to beat him with, the opposition parties used it, could or should he of done more? Absolutely, but let’s not pretend all people really cared about the anti-semitism within the Labour Party.

Now the GE is 4 months behind us how often do we read or hear about what Labour are doing in regards anti-semitism and their enquiries or has it all gone away?

Look at this thread, I posted about the allegations of islamophobia in the tory party and within a few posts we’re deflected on to Labour, going over old ground and Christianity.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			they did, it was brought up many times and the reason given, that didn't stop the right wing press and the tory's using it as a beating stick and the electorate beliving it

there were many resons why he didn't win... the beard being the most important as far as i was concerned

anyway i voted for the woman who gets refered as half well known comedy double act half that dresses and a small boy

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But did he though really im not convinced. Anyway we're detracting from the thread. Oh and I didn't vote for either Boris or red Jezza😉


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately the press wouldn’t allow it, how many times did he apologise and was still asked to repeat it, how many times did he state what the Labour Party were doing about it? How often were the statements from Jews who supported him shown?

The Media found a stick to beat him with, the opposition parties used it, could or should he of done more? Absolutely, but let’s not pretend all people really cared about the anti-semitism within the Labour Party.

Now the GE is 4 months behind us how often do we read or hear about what Labour are doing in regards anti-semitism and their enquiries or has it all gone away?

Look at this thread, I posted about the allegations of islamophobia in the tory party and within a few posts we’re deflected on to Labour, going over old ground and Christianity.
		
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Absolutely agree, this thread is no better than the politicians,. People instantly deflect onto others about their shortcomings rather than acknowledge what's going in in their own house so to speak. 

The Islamaphobia needs addressing without pushing back on other parties or other religious groups. Deal factually with the issue at hand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2020)

There have been a fair few times that comments have been made on here about Christianity; my beliefs and my faith, and at times directed at me as one having a religious faith, that if I was a different person I might well find offensive and hurtful.  But I know that what I read and the views expressed are just aspects of today's rather atheistic and agnostic life - and so I don't _let _them bother me as I am pretty good on the 'acceptance' thing.  Besides.  If I found myself getting bothered or upset then I know what to do...(please - that's not an invitation for posts to try and see the back of me  )


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Many reasons why I can't stand Corbyn and does himself no favours. But there's no accounting for idiots that cannot see the flaws in their own statements such as the Marxist comment. I'd also argue most weren't saying Corbyn was antisemitic but more issue that he didn't deal with the actual antisemitism issues that arose amongst some of his party members. Which is why Boris now needs to stand up confront these allegations and deal with the people accused.
		
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Occasionally, when Corbyn was riled by a line of persistent questioning we caught a glimpse of his anger, and maybe his strength. I honestly don't know where he stood on the issue of antisemitism. In many ways he tried to be everything to everyone and, maybe, fell down in the middle. However, he's no fool. He knew what was going on and did what? Yes we know the media hounded him for it, and just wouldn't let it go. 

Does that make him the victim? 

Rather than look at what the media said, although there will be an element of truth in there, have a look at how many MP's, councillors and party members were hounded for being Jewish or for supporting the investigation.

I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic by his actions but he might be by his lack of actions - and that's where i just can't make my mind up.

As for the Tories Islamaphobia, I hope they get crucified for it.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Occasionally, when Corbyn was riled by a line of persistent questioning we caught a glimpse of his anger, and maybe his strength. I honestly don't know where he stood on the issue of antisemitism. In many ways he tried to be everything to everyone and, maybe, fell down in the middle. However, he's no fool. He knew what was going on and did what? Yes we know the media hounded him for it, and just wouldn't let it go.

Does that make him the victim?

Rather than look at what the media said, although there will be an element of truth in there, have a look at how many MP's, councillors and party members were hounded for being Jewish or for supporting the investigation.

I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic by his actions but he might be by his lack of actions - and that's where i just can't make my mind up.

As for the Tories Islamaphobia, I hope they get crucified for it.
		
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You actually nailed my exact thoughts and feelings there Hobbit. The actual anti semitism that went on taking the not supporting Israel issue out of it was the problem. Like you I feel its his inaction that makes he and the Labour Party during this period come across worse. Because he never truly said where he stood or took it in hand to resolve it we will never know it he is or isn't. For me the lack of action is the worst part as it showed him as to weak to deal with his own party issues let alone deliver a successful government. 

Hopefully the islamaphobic morons get outed and nailed for it


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## pendodave (Mar 6, 2020)

The difficulty with these issues is that it prevents any legitimate discussion of particular issues because vested interests cry 'racist'. As mentioned earlier, it is impossible to discuss Israel's treatment of Palestine without being labelled. Equally, how is it possible to discuss the misogyny and oppresively patriarchical nature of Islam in the context of western social expectations without being accused of the same?
The narrative is hijacked by those seeking to defend what would otherwise be indefensible.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Surely you want Islamaphobia investigated and if found to be true, the appropriate action taken?
		
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Yes, I disagree with any religious discrimination and would like an even hand used when dealing with it.  I read many posts on this forum that attack and ridicule people for their Christian beliefs.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Case of someone we all know who blames immigration for most things and says more about their lack of acceptance of others beliefs. A case of the sort of person who should be held accountable for an unwillingness to see others faiths being derided by a party or social politic agenda that meets their personal criteria. I'd also say that wasn't a reasonable defence but a downright pathetic statement.

I stand by my point nobody no matter what religion should have to accept or be party to this behavior no matter what  other peoples beliefs are, everyone is entitled to their faith and not to face persecution for it.
		
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I disagree with your post and accusations.   I do indeed have an opinion on immigration and it forms a part of a wider view I hold on overpopulation of the country and Planet, these views are nothing to do with Religion or other peoples beliefs and I find it difficult to understand why you are suggesting this.  Maybe it would help if you were to actually read and even discuss/question my viewpoint rather than attacking me in this manner.

My previous post was not an acceptance of Islamophobia but rather a comment suggesting that other faiths are also treated with disrespect and derision and a level handed view should be used.  If you want examples of blinkered views and blunt accusations then look to a few of the posts here where it is suggested that because someone votes conservative they are automatically a racist.

I repeat that I dont have a racist bone in my body and resent being accused by you or anyone else of doing so.   You Sir are using the same strategy against me that you accuse me of using, please show some evidence where I have used my views on immigration or population in a Racist manner!


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## drdel (Mar 6, 2020)

I'd venture to say that across the population of the UK racists and religious zealots are a long way from being 'common' or the majority. To suggest a person's particular political leaning of being Labour, Liberal or Conservative etc. marks them out as a racist or intolerant of certain faiths is very wide of the mark.

The UK is one of the most open and tolerant societies in the world and it is something about which we should be proud and it should not be undermined by minority 'point scoring hype.

The theme of the thread was the PM, perhaps those wanting to challenge intolerance may want to start such a thread.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd venture to say that across the population of the UK racists and religious zealots are a long way from being 'common' or the majority. To suggest a person's particular political leaning of being Labour, Liberal or Conservative etc. marks them out as a racist or intolerant of certain faiths is very wide of the mark.

The UK is one of the most open and tolerant societies in the world and it is something about which we should be proud and it should not be undermined by minority 'point scoring hype.

The theme of the thread was the PM, perhaps those wanting to challenge intolerance may want to start such a thread.
		
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I notice you have never felt it was an issue or condemned it when point score has been on the other foot, in fact I think I’ve even seen you liked a few of those posts. In fact one particular poster puts on nothing but point scoring  post from twitter and right wing activists and all sorts of right wing clap trap… but those ok though, right?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd venture to say that across the population of the UK racists and religious zealots are a long way from being 'common' or the majority. To suggest a person's particular political leaning of being Labour, Liberal or Conservative etc. marks them out as a racist or intolerant of certain faiths is very wide of the mark.

The UK is one of the most open and tolerant societies in the world and it is something about which we should be proud and it should not be undermined by minority 'point scoring hype.

The theme of the thread was the PM, perhaps those wanting to challenge intolerance may want to start such a thread.
		
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The theme of this thread is 4 years old, it has meandered along and changed over those 4 years.

Do you really suggest we keep adding new political threads everytime something occurs.

Maybe you could of made your point earlier in the week when Pritti Patel was discussed?

I really find it strange how some posters never, ever post their balanced view when Labour, Corbyn, Abbott or SNP Politicians are discussed and happily like and support said posts.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree with your post and accusations.   I do indeed have an opinion on immigration and it forms a part of a wider view I hold on overpopulation of the country and Planet, these views are nothing to do with Religion or other peoples beliefs and I find it difficult to understand why you are suggesting this.  Maybe it would help if you were to actually read and even discuss/question my viewpoint rather than attacking me in this manner.

My previous post was not an acceptance of Islamophobia but rather a comment suggesting that other faiths are also treated with disrespect and derision and a level handed view should be used.  If you want examples of blinkered views and blunt accusations then look to a few of the posts here where it is suggested that because someone votes conservative they are automatically a racist.

I repeat that I dont have a racist bone in my body and resent being accused by you or anyone else of doing so.   You Sir are using the same strategy against me that you accuse me of using, please show some evidence where I have used my views on immigration or population in a Racist manner!
		
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Where did I accuse of racism.. I would suggest you also read what's written rather than what you assume is written. 

Immigration was mentioned as you alway revert to it so stop playing the race card because nobody has mentioned racism. 

Pathetic SR absolutely pathetic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2020)

I fear (and I really do) that the last 4 years have exposed a rather unpleasant underbelly belonging to quite a large section (but I would hope still a huge minority) of the UK population - who if asked whether they would - if they could - replace 10 million non-indigenous British UK residents (estimated in 2017 to be 9.382m) with 10 million expats and family - we might well guess what the answer would be.  I am not sure what reasons would be given - but it couldn't be down to overcrowding, a full country, or infrastructure not being up to the job.  Maybe something to do with 'getting our country back'.

100% hypothetical of course (though as a question it isn't) but for me rather worrying as we look forward the next few years...given past comments made and expectations raised and set by such as Johnson (though he is far from the worst culprit).


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## chrisd (Mar 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I fear (and I really do) that the last 4 years have exposed a rather unpleasant underbelly belonging to quite a large section (but I would hope still a huge minority) of the UK population - who if asked whether they would - if they could - replace 10 million non-indigenous British UK residents (estimated in 2017 to be 9.382m) with 10 million expats and family - we might well guess what the answer would be.  I am not sure what reasons would be given - but it couldn't be down to overcrowding, a full country, or infrastructure not being up to the job.  Maybe something to do with 'getting our country back'.

100% hypothetical of course (though as a question it isn't) but for me rather worrying as we look forward the next few years...given past comments made and expectations raised and set by such as Johnson (though he is far from the worst culprit).
		
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..... and as big a load of rollocks as I've read in a long while


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2020)

The world's only albino orangutan has been spotted alive and well in Borneo a year after she was released into the wild. 

In other news Boris Johnson has been seen sitting in a tree eating watermelon........


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Where did I accuse of racism.. I would suggest you also read what's written rather than what you assume is written.

Immigration was mentioned as you alway revert to it so stop playing the race card because nobody has mentioned racism.

Pathetic SR absolutely pathetic.
		
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You said  :
*"Case of someone we all know who blames immigration for most things and says more about their lack of acceptance of others beliefs"*

I suggest that as the discussion was about Islamaphobia your comment suggests I have a lack of acceptance for others beliefs and as such this makes me Islamaphobic and as such racist.  Does it not?
I still cannot understand why you have decided to bring my view on reducing immigration (I certainly dont blame it on everything) into debate, I can only assume its mentioned in relation to me not wanting foreigners in the country which again is a racist allegation (slur) is it not?

You said :
*"A case of the sort of person who should be held accountable for an unwillingness to see others faiths being derided by a party or social politic agenda that meets their personal criteria. I'd also say that wasn't a reasonable defence but a downright pathetic statement."*

Here you suggest I be made accountable for supporting other faith's being derided . Surely that would be the act of a racist. Would it not?

I repeat that my comment was to highlight that as much as Islamaphobia is wrong the same morals should be used against the phobia used against other Faith's, unfortunatly though we see certain members on this site often castigate other members for their Christian belief with immunity.  Pathetic as it may seem to you I find it a matter of importance.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You said  :
*"Case of someone we all know who blames immigration for most things and says more about their lack of acceptance of others beliefs"*

I suggest that as the discussion was about Islamaphobia your comment suggests I have a lack of acceptance for others beliefs and as such this makes me Islamaphobic and as such racist.  Does it not?
I still cannot understand why you have decided to bring my view on reducing immigration (I certainly dont blame it on everything) into debate, I can only assume its mentioned in relation to me not wanting foreigners in the country which again is a racist allegation (slur) is it not?

You said :
*"A case of the sort of person who should be held accountable for an unwillingness to see others faiths being derided by a party or social politic agenda that meets their personal criteria. I'd also say that wasn't a reasonable defence but a downright pathetic statement."*

Here you suggest I be made accountable for supporting other faith's being derided . Surely that would be the act of a racist. Would it not?

I repeat that my comment was to highlight that as much as Islamaphobia is wrong the same morals should be used against the phobia used against other Faith's, unfortunatly though we see certain members on this site often castigate other members for their Christian belief with immunity.  Pathetic as it may seem to you I find it a matter of importance.
		
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No it wouldn't be racist I never called you racist or mentioned race, religion a d immigration was mentioned not race so stop playing the race card. 

I mentioned immigration which you do always bring up, I never mentioned race. Again stop reading what you think you see..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No it wouldn't be racist I never called you racist or mentioned race, religion a d immigration was mentioned not race so stop playing the race card.

I mentioned immigration which you do always bring up, I never mentioned race. Again stop reading what you think you see..
		
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If you suggest that my views on immigration means I dont accept others beliefs in a discussion about islamaphobia then you are suggesting I am islamaphobic which is racist.  Is it not?
I just cant understand why you had a need to mention my views on immigration. I have spoken on the subject but only on context of a subject being discussed, I dont 'always bring it up' that's a gross exaggeration.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you suggest that my views on immigration means I dont accept others beliefs in a discussion about islamaphobia then you are suggesting I am islamaphobic which is racist.  Is it not?
I just cant understand why you had a need to mention my views on immigration. I have spoken on the subject but only on context of a subject being discussed, I dont 'always bring it up' that's a gross exaggeration.
		
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It was mentioned in direct response to a question I was asked and your views on immigration are well known and you do often mention them in relation to the context that was being discussed. Again i never referred to race I referred to religion stop twisting the facts to suit your personal agenda in trying to say I called you racist.  

Direct quote on the definition of islamophobia from the dictionary "Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against the Islamic religion"

Again I'll ask you once more stop trying play the race card because nobody except you has mentioned race. I won't reply any further because clearly you can't see past the facts and if you wish to further accuse me of calling you racist which I 100% factually did not do then go ahead and do so but we'll let the MODs resolve it as this is just continuing to derail a thread.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How big would be a dossier detailing allegations over claims of Christianaphobia?  Much bigger I would suggest but aparantly acceptable in our new world of selective diversity.
		
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Against my better judgement Can I just ask 1 question.

Why didn’t you post this response in any of the GE Threads last year when we were discussing the dossier handed to the EHCR about Labour’s anti-semitism?

Looking back through those threads you never once raised the question of christianophobia or even mentioned the word christianophobia.


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## Dando (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you suggest that my views on immigration means I dont accept others beliefs in a discussion about islamaphobia then you are suggesting I am islamaphobic which is racist.  Is it not?
I just cant understand why you had a need to mention my views on immigration. I have spoken on the subject but only on context of a subject being discussed, I dont 'always bring it up' that's a gross exaggeration.
		
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Islam isn’t a race so how can it be racist?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Against my better judgement Can I just ask 1 question.

Why didn’t you post this response in any of the GE Threads last year when we were discussing the dossier handed to the EHCR about Labour’s anti-semitism?

Looking back through those threads you never once raised the question of christianophobia or even mentioned the word christianophobia.
		
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Because it was a different subject. What has labour anti semitism got to do with it. You may notice I did not accuse Labour of anti semitism.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Dando said:



			Islam isn’t a race so how can it be racist?
		
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I dont make those rules, racism is called against people who critisise Islam but never Christianity.  It is also used/inferred against people who have concerns about immigration and population.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Because it was a different subject. What has labour anti semitism got to do with it. You may notice I did not accuse Labour of anti semitism.
		
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I never said you accused anyone of anything, I’m simply asking why when 2 dossiers have been handed to the EHCR, about our 2 main political parties, containing similar allegations you only mention christianophobia today?
Were you not worried about how big a dossier detailing allegations about christianophobia would of been 4 months ago?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			It was mentioned in direct response to a question I was asked and your views on immigration are well known and you do often mention them in relation to the context that was being discussed. Again i never referred to race I referred to religion stop twisting the facts to suit your personal agenda in trying to say I called you racist. 

Direct quote on the definition of islamophobia from the dictionary "Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against the Islamic religion"

Again I'll ask you once more stop trying play the race card because nobody except you has mentioned race. I won't reply any further because clearly you can't see past the facts and if you wish to further accuse me of calling you racist which I 100% factually did not do then go ahead and do so but we'll let the MODs resolve it as this is just continuing to derail a thread.
		
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I wont leave it.  Again you have said my views on immigration are well known so you must have felt that was somehow relevant,  it was an accusation and unfair. You know you used it as a leverage  against me so please dont deny it. I have respected your posts but am rather dissapointed in what you said here.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I never said you accused anyone of anything, I’m simply asking why when 2 dossiers have been handed to the EHCR, about our 2 main political parties, containing similar allegations you only mention christianophobia today?
Were you not worried about how big a dossier detailing allegations about christianophobia would of been 4 months ago?
		
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I have not followed these dossiers closely as the subject does not really interest me.  I think a lot of the accusations against Labour have been mixing anti Israeli and anti semitism. Likewise some of the accusations of islamaphobia appear to be exaggerated somewhat.  Some on here seem to be looking for things that have not been said or inferred, I repeat, my earlier comment didnt suggest any phobias are right, quite the opposite I said that all attacks on religions are wrong equally.


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## Wolf (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I wont leave it.  Again you have said my views on immigration are well known so you must have felt that was somehow relevant,  it was an accusation and unfair. You know you used it as a leverage  against me so please dont deny it. I have respected your posts but am rather dissapointed in what you said here.
		
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I did feel it was relevant to the overall context as you'll often drag immigration out in context with these type of debates to the question I was asked and the fact you chose to use the term Christianphonia in reply to Islamaphobia but had never thought once to do so when antisemitism was being banded about which comes across as a little double standard almost like a defence of the Tory party but wouldn't think to do the same with the shoe on the other left foot so to speak. 

But you played the race card so don't talk about respect when you've said in several posts I'm calling you racist.. I'm not using it as leverage against you don't be so pedantic, your the one perusing a race argument that was never once mentioned so yes you should drop it because its factually untrue.

But if you wish to continue to go over the same point feel free SR because it's getting rather boring pointing out the facts that I never said you were racist.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have not followed these dossiers closely as the subject does not really interest me.  I think a lot of the accusations against Labour have been mixing anti Israeli and anti semitism. Likewise some of the accusations of islamaphobia appear to be exaggerated somewhat.  Some on here seem to be looking for things that have not been said or inferred, I repeat, my earlier comment didnt suggest any phobias are right, quite the opposite I said that all attacks on religions are wrong equally.
		
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The only post I have questioned is post #929 and that doesn’t mention anything about “all attacks on religion are wrong equally”


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The only post I have questioned is post #929 and that doesn’t mention anything about “all attacks on religion are wrong equally”

Click to expand...

Once again. In that post I didnt disagree with your comments, I only suggested that people should also consider the acts against Christains which do not get the same support and condemnations.  If you are trying to read something else into it then I cant help you.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I did feel it was relevant to the overall context as you'll often drag immigration out in context with these type of debates to the question I was asked and the fact you chose to use the term Christianphonia in reply to Islamaphobia but had never thought once to do so when antisemitism was being banded about which comes across as a little double standard almost like a defence of the Tory party but wouldn't think to do the same with the shoe on the other left foot so to speak.

But you played the race card so don't talk about respect when you've said in several posts I'm calling you racist.. I'm not using it as leverage against you don't be so pedantic, your the one perusing a race argument that was never once mentioned so yes you should drop it because its factually untrue.

But if you wish to continue to go over the same point feel free SR because it's getting rather boring pointing out the facts that I never said you were racist.
		
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Please stop deflecting.  My views on immigration were not relevant to the subject,  you rather used it as a defamatory method to discredit me.  I only discuss immigration where it's relevant  to the subject and will choose where that is myself.

I have already explained my views on anti semitism and also fail to understand why I am now being accused of not getting involved with that discussion, I didn't realise it was compulsary.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Once again. In that post I didnt disagree with your comments, I only suggested that people should also consider the acts against Christains which do not get the same support and condemnations.  If you are trying to read something else into it then I cant help you.
		
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I’m not reading anything in to it.

I posted a factual comment on something that happened yesterday.

Your reply didn’t make any sense, as, as far as I’m aware the EHCR haven’t received any dossier on christianophobia and therefore I have no idea how big it would be or what difference it makes to them receiving the dossier on allegations of islamophobia in the tory party.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 7, 2020)

You can always guarantee that threads involving politics, religion, race or footy will cause problems, the only one missing from this thread is footy, so it’s a smouldering cauldron full of popcorn.

Right
The accusations of who said what, and to whom stop right now.

Socket, Wolf, Paul, please take a break away from this thread for a few days

I do not believe that anyone on here is being intentionally racist (otherwise I’d have kicked them off) But I do want people to be careful what they post, as the written word can be easily mis-interpreted, 

Back on topic please


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			..... and as big a load of rollocks as I've read in a long while
		
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You might think so - but I had to have a check on my thinking when I asked myself that question. We never have had a 100% indigenous Brit population (whatever that is) but I asked myself whether it would be a good thing or not if we could have.  I don’t believe so. We are a very rich nation by having a wide diversity of cultures and ethnicities.

I fear that whilst it is i would hope very true that the number of racists in this country is very small I might suggest that the numbers holding racist views of some degree might not be quite so small. And as we do not actually know the extent of that it is important that leaders in our country - especially political - are careful about their use of language so as not to add any normalisation or legitimacy to these views - however mild they might seem to those holding the views.


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I fear (and I really do) that the last 4 years have exposed a rather unpleasant underbelly belonging to quite a large section (but I would hope still a huge minority) of the UK population - who if asked whether they would - if they could - replace 10 million non-indigenous British UK residents (estimated in 2017 to be 9.382m) with 10 million expats and family - we might well guess what the answer would be.  I am not sure what reasons would be given - but it couldn't be down to overcrowding, a full country, or infrastructure not being up to the job.  Maybe something to do with 'getting our country back'.

100% hypothetical of course (though as a question it isn't) but for me rather worrying as we look forward the next few years...given past comments made and expectations raised and set by such as Johnson (though he is far from the worst culprit).
		
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If you type in UK race riots you might be surprised to see there's been race riots in almost every decade for the last 100 years. Has the UK sunk to new lows? It has if you want to use Brexit as an indicator, because its convenient for your argument, but I'd argue it hasn't changed barely a jot. And in that respect i find your question rather shallow.


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## bluewolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you type in UK race riots you might be surprised to see there's been race riots in almost every decade for the last 100 years. Has the UK sunk to new lows? It has if you want to use Brexit as an indicator, because its convenient for your argument, but I'd argue it hasn't changed barely a jot. And in that respect i find your question rather shallow.
		
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Whilst I would agree that the number of racists probably hasn’t changed, I would argue that the visibility of it is much increased. Not that it has been normalised, but I’m absolutely certain that people in senior positions are much more comfortable excusing people who make statements that many consider racist, just because they hold opinions that coincide with their own. 
I’ll leave people smarter than me to discuss why that might be.


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I would agree that the number of racists probably hasn’t changed, I would argue that the visibility of it is much increased. Not that it has been normalised, but I’m absolutely certain that people in senior positions are much more comfortable excusing people who make statements that many consider racist, just because they hold opinions that coincide with their own.
I’ll leave people smarter than me to discuss why that might be.
		
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Crikey Danny, where would we start, and where would it end, if we were to review changing standards of acceptable behaviour. How many shop lifters get anything more than a caution? How many Friday night pub fights end up with more than the Police separating the idiots? How often do the Police turn out for a burglary? And then it’s black ankle socks with shorts...

Visibility? Sensationalist reporting has not only increased the visibility, it’s also increased(incited) the emotion that goes with it.


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## bluewolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Crikey Danny, where would we start, and where would it end, if we were to review changing standards of acceptable behaviour. How many shop lifters get anything more than a caution? How many Friday night pub fights end up with more than the Police separating the idiots? How often do the Police turn out for a burglary? And then it’s black ankle socks with shorts...

Visibility? Sensationalist reporting has not only increased the visibility, it’s also increased(incited) the emotion that goes with it.
		
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If we’re going to look at the Media and it’s sensationalist leanings then I’d be far more interested in the people deciding editorial policy and the Venn diagram detailing them and senior politicians/SPAD’s. it would be closer to a perfect circle than many realise.


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## chrisd (Mar 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might think so - but I had to have a check on my thinking when I asked myself that question. We never have had a 100% indigenous Brit population (whatever that is) but I asked myself whether it would be a good thing or not if we could have.  I don’t believe so. We are a very rich nation by having a wide diversity of cultures and ethnicities.

I fear that whilst it is i would hope very true that the number of racists in this country is very small I might suggest that the numbers holding racist views of some degree might not be quite so small. And as we do not actually know the extent of that it is important that leaders in our country - especially political - are careful about their use of language so as not to add any normalisation or legitimacy to these views - however mild they might seem to those holding the views.
		
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I dont think it's a load of rollocks, I'm absolutely certain it is. I really cannot comprehend  your thinking


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont think it's a load of rollocks, I'm absolutely certain it is. I really cannot comprehend  your thinking
		
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Spot on!!!

Time and time again its 2+2=5. He spins a point, throws pixie dust at it and then tells you that the chicken bones have fallen a particular way. Facts are disctinctly missing or twisted and when you pull him for it, time and again he tells you its only an opinion..... its fact till you confront him.

He's Farage/Johnson in sheep's clothing.


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## Old Skier (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spot on!!!

Time and time again its 2+2=5. He spins a point, throws pixie dust at it and then tells you that the chicken bones have fallen a particular way. Facts are disctinctly missing or twisted and when you pull him for it, time and again he tells you its only an opinion..... its fact till you confront him.

He's Farage/Johnson in sheep's clothing.
		
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He can at times be worse than that, Farage/ Johnson admit to their beliefs


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## chrisd (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spot on!!!

Time and time again its 2+2=5. He spins a point, throws pixie dust at it and then tells you that the chicken bones have fallen a particular way. Facts are disctinctly missing or twisted and when you pull him for it, time and again he tells you its only an opinion..... its fact till you confront him.

He's Farage/Johnson in sheep's clothing.
		
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He has such a negative attitude to life, I really am bewildered as to how he comes up with these ideas. GPS devices was bad enough, Brexit a nightmare, but what's coming now is just fantasy island


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			He has such a negative attitude to life, I really am bewildered as to how he comes up with these ideas. GPS devices was bad enough, Brexit a nightmare, but what's *coming now is just fantasy island*

Click to expand...

Says the poster who is adamant that the EU need us more than we need them from a trading perspective.  Everyone has their views, but sad there's a pile on yet again against the same one or two posters. All he said is that leaders need to be careful about what they say as to not embolden an increasingly fractious society.  Not that fantasy island to me.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			stand by for classic Tory deflection and no doubt,,,, "But *Labour are anti semitic*"
		
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I don't believe Labour, as an organisation, are actively anti-semetic, though the refusal to adopt internationally accept definitions of anti-semetism doesn't help their cause. There are, after all, a significant number of jewish folk in positions of influence, just as there are in the Tories

Rather than being anti-semetic, I believe Labour, as a 'natural home for the oppressed', is pro-Palestinian - an attitude I have _some_ sympathy with. 

There have been plenty of instances of supposed anti-semetic comments and attitudes from Tory folk too!


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## patricks148 (Mar 9, 2020)

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2...BGD1KDanBCctScDCPsm9mtZ2TH7VRII3lecr8v8eYd-tg

i shudder to think what laura would have done to it, if this is the impartial BBC


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## Dando (Mar 9, 2020)

chrisd said:



			He has such a negative attitude to life, I really am bewildered as to how he comes up with these ideas. GPS devices was bad enough, Brexit a nightmare, but what's coming now is just fantasy island
		
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I so hope he’s in your group at h4h!


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## chrisd (Mar 9, 2020)

Dando said:



			I so hope he’s in your group at h4h!
		
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To be fair James I'd have no problem with that I'd happily play with him.


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## Kellfire (Mar 10, 2020)

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2020/03/10/boris-johnson-this-morning-take-coronavirus-on-the-chin/

Profits before people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

After the seriously dividing events of the last 3 and half years - the coronavirus risk to the country presents Johnson with an unexpected (albeit 100% unwished for) opportunity to bring the country together.  

The virus respects none of country, region, individual, political or views on the EU or the future.  We are all equally at risk.  We have to collaborate as individuals and as groups of individuals.  This will happen I have little doubt - especially if the PM provides sound and clear leadership with unambiguous communication informed by our experts (rather than political opinion, self-interest or hunches cf what's going on in the USA).  Indeed this is the sort of leadership that he seems well capable of; that we are told that he prefers; and indeed that he now seems to be providing - albeit perhaps a little tardily in respect of Cobra meetings (but that is past).

And so in looking for a glimmer of a silver lining to the difficult situation the country is in today - I pray that when the outbreak is contained and under-control - and the impact is reducing - that Johnson bears in mind the angry division of the last few years; compares that with what we will (hopefully) do together over the coming months - and going forward into 2021 acts and leads accordingly.
.


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## patricks148 (Mar 10, 2020)

Shame the Guardian didn't mention this during the election
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...8NIcmXDibgkJN8hShc9c7TtJNpqdx7uENt7RBn2hhbne0


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## patricks148 (Mar 10, 2020)

another Boris Porkie exposed

https://scramnews.com/tory-mp-expos...W_TdswBf88M6vw9hpsA8Pa5xjgin-_R98QohQivzcQzc8


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

And so as Trump manipulates what the US public hear and understand about coronavirus (see for instance the WH blocking of advice from the experts that seniors should desist from flying at the moment) and preferring that the cruise liner didn't dock as it makes his numbers look worse (even though the numbers are real) - because Trump does not want to be blamed in any way for a spread of coronavirus in the US - or anything to reflect badly on his administration - might we see similar attempted manipulations from #10.  I hope not.

But there are some confusing messages coming from #10 - with gatherings of people quite closely packed seemingly OK - but we should avoid shaking hands? Or are we still able to shake hands?  And if we find we have been in the vicinity of someone testing positive then we should self-isolate - but Johnson was at the #10 event that Dorries was at, and he I suggest was quite probably in close vicinity to her from time to time - so is he to self-isolate and get tested?   And Matt Hancock must surely have been close to Dorries in the last week or so - she is a Health minister reporting directly to him. Is he going to self-isolate - and if not why not?  

And all we the public need to do at the moment is thoroughly wash our hands.

I fear that there is a risk that we might be played a bit by Cummings and Co. in respect of what we are being told to do and what the government does - to ensure that Johnson and the Conservative government cannot be blamed on any aspect of this very difficult situation.  I desperately hope not - because as I posted - there is the opportunity to bring the country together - and perhaps to hold us together - coming out of this - but for this we need total honesty and openness from government. 

If they need to make very difficult decisions then please just make them - and even though to many these decisions might seem excessive and some will be critical - maybe just make them.  Put political considerations aside.


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## MikeB (Mar 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			another Boris Porkie exposed

https://scramnews.com/tory-mp-expos...W_TdswBf88M6vw9hpsA8Pa5xjgin-_R98QohQivzcQzc8

Click to expand...

 From an unbiased source "We hate Brexit. We hate Boris. We hate the far-right. We want climate action, the end of austerity, and a pro-European future."


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## patricks148 (Mar 11, 2020)

MikeB said:



			From an unbiased source "We hate Brexit. We hate Boris. We hate the far-right. We want climate action, the end of austerity, and a pro-European future."
		
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so its not true then, is that what you are saying?


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## MikeB (Mar 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			so its not true then, is that what you are saying?
		
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Find the actual text and I'll read it but don't tell me a page with all that hatred is going to be unbiased.


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## Beezerk (Mar 11, 2020)

MikeB said:



			Find the actual text and I'll read it but don't tell me a page with all that hatred is going to be unbiased.
		
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More to it, who actually cares what is said at PMQ's, it's 99% bluster and ballox from all sides of the house.


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## patricks148 (Mar 11, 2020)

MikeB said:



			Find the actual text and I'll read it but don't tell me a page with all that hatred is going to be unbiased.
		
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here is an article from that well know lefty rag.. the Bucks Herald

https://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/...is-johnson-over-hospital-parking-fees-2444965
you are not picking on this because it isn't bias towards Boris I hope, i dont see you objecting when spongnob just posts right wing rhetoric from twitter, by right wing bloggers


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## MikeB (Mar 11, 2020)

I rarely comment on anything, as I see little point in arguing from a keyboard but you must agree that page you linked to is not completely balanced so you surely cannot believe they wouldn't spin a news story could you?
Whatever Boris said or didn't say, can you find a complete text preferably not from a newspaper?


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## patricks148 (Mar 11, 2020)

MikeB said:



			I rarely comment on anything, as I see little point in arguing from a keyboard but you must agree that page you linked to is not completely balanced so you surely cannot believe they wouldn't spin a news story could you?
Whatever Boris said or didn't say, can you find a complete text preferably not from a newspaper?
		
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what difference does that make, are you doubting Boris Said it or the the torty MP for Bucks saying its not true?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2020)

MikeB said:



			I rarely comment on anything, as I see little point in arguing from a keyboard but you must agree that *page you linked to is not completely balanced *so you surely cannot believe they wouldn't spin a news story could you?
Whatever Boris said or didn't say, can you find a complete text preferably not from a newspaper?
		
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Show me a media outlet, traditional or social, that is perceived as balanced nowadays.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Show me a media outlet, traditional or social, that is perceived as balanced nowadays.
		
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If someone quoted an article from the DM what would Patrick's response be.  🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

I have to say that I was very impressed by the words, tone and demeanor of our Prime Minister throughout the Press Conference, and as we look over the Pond I can thank the Lord that we have a clearly serious, logical and well-informed person at the helm - and I can't say I'd ever have thought I'd be saying that.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have to say that I was very impressed by the words, tone and demeanor of our Prime Minister throughout the Press Conference, and as we look over the Pond I can thank the Lord that we have a clearly serious, logical and well-informed person at the helm - and I can't say I'd ever have thought I'd be saying that.
		
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I'll tip my hat to your honest comment and principles. 
Sorry but I can't resist referring back to my earlier posts in this thread when I said that from my experience of Johnson on projects involving him as Mayor of London he was always decisive, up-to-speed on the projects' status and considered the expert opinions - long may it continue!! In private meetings he is a long way from the public/media persona which is a pity.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have to say that I was very impressed by the words, tone and demeanor of our Prime Minister throughout the Press Conference, and as we look over the Pond I can thank the Lord that we have a clearly serious, logical and well-informed person at the helm - *and I can't say I'd ever have thought I'd be saying that*.
		
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Neither can I believe you said it.  It's a wind up surely?


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## Twire (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have to say that I was very impressed by the words, tone and demeanor of our Prime Minister throughout the Press Conference, and as we look over the Pond I can thank the Lord that we have a clearly serious, logical and well-informed person at the helm - and I can't say I'd ever have thought I'd be saying that.
		
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I never thought I'd hear you praise Boris, but hats off to you. 👍


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2020)

Johnson using Coronavirus to take a totally untrue and desperate political swipe at SNHS.
SNHS has by far the best NHS record in the UK.
More [and better paid] doctors, nurses, GP's, beds and better A&E records.

Whatever happened to his 'one nation' Tory party, the guy just can't help himself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

My praise is specific and limited to yesterday’s press conference when I felt that he did the part of lead for the experts well, and displayed the appropriate solemnity in tone and deference to the experts, and a lack of self-serving.   That he went up in my estimation does not lift him far off the base position he sits.

Johnson did yesterday well and I felt he spoke authentically. This does not absolve him of all of his sins and enable me to ignore his defects of character.  He has quite some way to go for me to trust him beyond yesterday.  I need to see a lot more in the wider political context.  He has shown to me that he can do better than what I have previously seen and heard.  The proof will be in the future pudding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson using Coronavirus to take a totally untrue and desperate political swipe at SNHS.
SNHS has by far the best NHS record in the UK.
More [and better paid] doctors, nurses, GP's, beds and better A&E records.

Whatever happened to his 'one nation' Tory party, the guy just can't help himself.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure that he did.  He did mention poorer resilience in Scotland and yes I did pick that up at the time, but from what I heard from the FM that is more in respect of services overall and not specifically the SNHS.  Less resilience does not imply poorer standards or ability.  Larger organisations of any sort tend to have more resilience to major shock, and are better able to continue normal or near to normal, than smaller ones.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson using Coronavirus to take a totally untrue and desperate political swipe at SNHS.
SNHS has by far the best NHS record in the UK.
More [and better paid] doctors, nurses, GP's, beds and better A&E records.

Whatever happened to his 'one nation' Tory party, the guy just can't help himself.
		
Click to expand...

Just a quick 'factcheck.'

Staff Nurse, NHS Lanarkshire = £23,711......………… staff nurse NHS England = £23,821

Awaiting cancer diagnosis SNHS = 6 weeks...…………..…….. awaiting cancer diagnosis NHS England = 2 weeks.

GP 'v' patient ratio Scotland = 1151...……….. GP 'v' patient ratio England = 1053 (note, this is SNHS own figures)

Edit; beds.... there are more beds 'v' patients in Scotland, although the difference isn't huge. However, the occupancy rates show that there is more day case usage in England. This means the ratio of cases completed is higher in England. 

Another interesting stat, if you're interested, is the number of emergency readmissions within 30 days..... by far the best? You'd struggle to get a sheet of paper separating both NHS's, and SNHS wins some and NHS England wins others.... by far the best? Not really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson using Coronavirus to take a totally untrue and desperate political swipe at SNHS.
SNHS has by far the best NHS record in the UK.
More [and better paid] doctors, nurses, GP's, beds and better A&E records.

Whatever happened to his 'one nation' Tory party, the guy just can't help himself.
		
Click to expand...

Any evidence? I hate the bloke, but yesterday I was impressed by his performance and at no time did he have a swipe at SNHS.

Sturgeon was in the meetings with him and I’m sure she would of been straight on to the media point scoring.

The SNP Deputy Leader in the HoC’s was on QT last night and made no mention of it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2020)

How anyone can say he’s handling this well is beyond me. 

The government are dropping the ball over and over while other countries take action.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			How anyone can say he’s handling this well is beyond me.

The government are dropping the ball over and over while other countries take action.
		
Click to expand...

At the moment he seems to be following the scientific advice, deferring to the health and science bods along side him at press conferences. No barnstorming speeches, no political capital, just calm factual comments. You may disagree with the approach our science / health bods are taking but the way they explained it yesterday and this morning had a logic to it. By all accounts France are doing the same with the exception of closing all schools and they explained that reasoning as well.

We want calm leadership right now, following the expert advice. He seems to be doing just that. Forget his other politics, this is separate.


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