# Mixed competitions under WHS



## backwoodsman (Jun 22, 2020)

This may have been covered before, if so,  apologies.

After November, courses have been rated and new handicap indexes have been dished out, so ....

In a mixed stableford competition
A man plays off white tees - course rating 69, slope 120,  so Handicap Index of (say)18 is adjusted to course handicap of 19
A woman plays off red tees  - course rating 72, slope 124, so  Handicap index of (say) 15 is adjusted to course handicap of 17

Man scores 35 points and woman scores 36. Under WHS is it equitable to simply to take these scores as is, and therefore  the woman is the winner. Or is there some other adjustment that's necessary?


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## TheJezster (Jun 22, 2020)

Once the adjustment has been made that's the handicap you play off. The person scoring 36 points would beat the person scoring 35.


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 22, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			Once the adjustment has been made that's the handicap you play off. The person scoring 36 points would beat the person scoring 35.
		
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I dont believe that's correct,  you would also need to adjust for any difference between Par and course rating from.the tee's played,  just as you would under CONGU.


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## rosecott (Jun 22, 2020)

I think you are both correct and both wrong - at least that's my reading of how it works in the EGA system which should give a good idea of how WHS will work:

Stroke Play (Medal) and Match Play Competitions
This means that, in stroke play (medal) and match play handicap competitions, when players compete in the same competition but play from different tees, each with a different Par, the players playing from the set of tees with the higher Par receive additional strokes equal to the Par difference. First, the playing handicap should be determined and then the additional strokes are added to the playing handicap of the player(s) playing from the tees with the higher Par.

Bogey, Par and Stableford Competitions
In these formats, when players compete in the same competition but play from different tees with a different Par, no extra adjustment for the difference in Pars will be applied to their playing handicaps since the formula of the playing handicap (see Clause 3.9.3) compensates for that difference.
No handicap adjustments will be applied for Bogey, Par and Stableford competitions.


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## jim8flog (Jun 22, 2020)

My understanding of the WHS is that shooting 36 points is playing to handicap regardless of the tee used provided that tee is rated for the appropriate sex.

So the lady with 36 points beats the man with 35 points.


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## rulefan (Jun 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I think you are both correct and both wrong - at least that's my reading of how it works in the EGA system which should give a good idea of how WHS will work:
		
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I don't know if you are referring to the old EGA system or the WHS implementation for EGA affiliated countries in Europe. However, neither apply to CONGU. CONGU does not use par in the Course Handicap calculation.


_Stroke Play formats:
In circumstances where play is from two or more sets of tees (such as mixed gender or mixed ability events). those playing from tees with higher Course Ratings must receive additional strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the Course Rating of the tees they are playing and the tees with the lowest Course Rating.
The additional strokes are added to the player's Playing Handicap as follows:_

*Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x handicap allowance) + ( difference in Course Ratings)*

_Stableford formats:
The number of points required for all players to play to handicap must be calculated from each applicable set of tees. Those players with the highest number of target points to play to handicap receive no additional strokes. All players playing from tees with a lower target number of points will receive additional strokes equal to the difference in their target points required to play to handicap._


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## IanG (Jun 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



_The additional strokes are added to the player's Playing Handicap as follows:_

*Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x handicap allowance) + ( difference in Course Ratings)*

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Thanks Rulefan. Can you clarify where and in which order rounding takes place in the formula?


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## rulefan (Jun 23, 2020)

I'm afraid it's not clear. The only thing I can find is "_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest integer._"

The implication being that all base figures are expressed and used as decimals. But I will attempt to find out


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## IanG (Jun 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid it's not clear. The only thing I can find is "_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest integer._"

The implication being that all base figures are expressed and used as decimals. But I will attempt to find out
		
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Thanks, I guess it will become clearer by the time it is needed.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 23, 2020)

I realise I neglected to mention that in my example the men's white tees are CR 69, Par 69, and ladies red tees are CR 72, par 72.  So presumably men & ladies both have to score 36 point to be level h/c?  Does that alter anything as regards my original query.


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## rosecott (Jun 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I don't know if you are referring to the old EGA system or the WHS implementation for EGA affiliated countries in Europe. However, neither apply to CONGU. CONGU does not use par in the Course Handicap calculation.


_Stroke Play formats:
In circumstances where play is from two or more sets of tees (such as mixed gender or mixed ability events). those playing from tees with higher Course Ratings must receive additional strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the Course Rating of the tees they are playing and the tees with the lowest Course Rating.
The additional strokes are added to the player's Playing Handicap as follows:_

*Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x handicap allowance) + ( difference in Course Ratings)*

_Stableford formats:
The number of points required for all players to play to handicap must be calculated from each applicable set of tees. Those players with the highest number of target points to play to handicap receive no additional strokes. All players playing from tees with a lower target number of points will receive additional strokes equal to the difference in their target points required to play to handicap._

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I was referring to the EGA system as detailed in the current Handicapmaster manual. Has EGA already gone WHS?


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## jim8flog (Jun 23, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			I realise I neglected to mention that in my example the men's white tees are CR 69, Par 69, and ladies red tees are CR 72, par 72.  So presumably men & ladies both have to score 36 point to be level h/c?  Does that alter anything as regards my original query.
		
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Not with my reply #5 which was 36 points is playing to handicap under the WHS.


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## jim8flog (Jun 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid it's not clear. The only thing I can find is "_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest integer._"

The implication being that all base figures are expressed and used as decimals. But I will attempt to find out
		
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That is my understanding and what I have said in my brief to the members.


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## Alan Clifford (Aug 13, 2020)

England Golf have now published their version of the WHS rules of handicapping and I am completely baffled by the rule to calculate playing handicaps for mixed tee, 18 hole stableford.  It's rule 6.2bii, 

Stableford formats 
For an 18-hole round: The number of points required for all players to ‘play to handicap’ must be calculated from each applicable set of tees. 
o Those players requiring the highest number of points to ‘play to  handicap’ receive no additional strokes to the standard calculation of their Playing Handicap. 
o All players playing from a set of tees requiring a lower number of points to ‘play to handicap’ will receive additional strokes to their Playing Handicap equal to the difference between the number of points they require to ‘play to handicap’ and the highest number of points required by other players. 

So, for example, with gents yellow tees with par/course/slope of 69/68/120 and ladies red at 70/70/123 and both myself and my wife having a handicap index of 19.0,  our rounded course handicaps would be 19.0 * 120/113 = 20  and 19.0 * 123/113 = 21.  

Assuming no competition handicap allowance, I have no idea how to turn the above rules of handicapping text into a calculation to adjust one of the handicaps.


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## Wabinez (Aug 14, 2020)

Maybe for the time being, just write gross score down and let the computer work it out 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Alan Clifford (Aug 14, 2020)

It's nice to know the playing handicaps before the start of the round!

Everything else in the manual has the algorithm as an equation.  This bit seems to have defeated the authors of the manual.  It's an arithmetic explosion by this point!


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			My understanding of the WHS is that shooting 36 points is playing to handicap regardless of the tee used provided that tee is rated for the appropriate sex.

.
		
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  I have since learnt that this is incorrect information.

Any person of any sex playing in the same competition with players of the other sex may need course adjustment shots depending on the Course ratings of the tees being being used.

The method of adjustment can be foud in The Rules of Handicapping 6.2b


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			Maybe for the time being, just write gross score down and let the computer work it out 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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 The computer will not work it out.

Course adjustment Shots have always been applied manually.

It is the sort of thing worked out by a committee in charge of a competition and declared before the start of a competition.


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## Alan Clifford (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi @jim8flog   I posted the text from rule 6.2b, "England Golf have now published their version of the WHS rules of handicapping and I am completely baffled by the rule to calculate playing handicaps for mixed tee, 18 hole stableford.  It's rule 6.2bii, ...".  See my first message for the text.

The problem is that I do not understand how to translate that verbiage into a number!  See example that I specified in my first message.


I already have a WHS in South Africa.  In their version of the WHS, they already adjust for par and course rating in the *course* handicap so it is not neccessary to jump through these arithmetic hoops to calculate mixed tee _*playing*_ handicaps.  Strangely, in the English version, they do this for 9 hole *course* handicaps but not for 18 hole _*course*_ handicaps.


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2020)

Alan Clifford said:



			England Golf have now published their version of the WHS rules of handicapping and I am completely baffled by the rule to calculate playing handicaps for mixed tee, 18 hole stableford.  It's rule 6.2bii,

Stableford formats
For an 18-hole round: The number of points required for all players to ‘play to handicap’ must be calculated from each applicable set of tees.
o Those players requiring the highest number of points to ‘play to  handicap’ receive no additional strokes to the standard calculation of their Playing Handicap.
o All players playing from a set of tees requiring a lower number of points to ‘play to handicap’ will receive additional strokes to their Playing Handicap equal to the difference between the number of points they require to ‘play to handicap’ and the highest number of points required by other players.

So, for example, with gents yellow tees with par/course/slope of 69/68/120 and ladies red at 70/70/123 and both myself and my wife having a handicap index of 19.0,  our rounded course handicaps would be 19.0 * 120/113 = 20  and 19.0 * 123/113 = 21. 

Assuming no competition handicap allowance, I have no idea how to turn the above rules of handicapping text into a calculation to adjust one of the handicaps.
		
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 Taking the first bit first you have to compare the par to the course rating to work out what is required to play to handicap  (same as now but you currently compare par to the SSS)
The lady playing to handicap needs to score 36 points because the par and the course rating are the same
The man playing to handicap needs to score 37 points because the course rating is one less than the par

So the lady gets one shot extra to her playing handicap for parity


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## Alan Clifford (Aug 14, 2020)

@jim8flog That seems reasonable.  In would have been nice if they could have put the meaning of "Play to handicap" in the definitions section of the manual.  After all, it is a new handicap system.


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2020)

Alan Clifford said:



			Hi @jim8flog   I posted the text from rule 6.2b, "England Golf have now published their version of the WHS rules of handicapping and I am completely baffled by the rule to calculate playing handicaps for mixed tee, 18 hole stableford.  It's rule 6.2bii, ...".  See my first message for the text.

The problem is that I do not understand how to translate that verbiage into a number!  See example that I specified in my first message.


I already have a WHS in South Africa.  In their version of the WHS, they already adjust for par and course rating in the *course* handicap so it is not neccessary to jump through these arithmetic hoops to calculate mixed tee _*playing*_ handicaps.  Strangely, in the English version, they do this for 9 hole *course* handicaps but not for 18 hole _*course*_ handicaps.
		
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I think one of the biggest problems has always been understanding what playing to your handicap means. It means in stroke play terms that your score after deducting your handicap equals the CSS if playing a competition and the SSS in a friendly game and not par. For instance where I play I have to shoot 3 under par nett to play to my handicap. 

I was going to quote what it means under the WHS but in my mind it is basically the same. Sadly the caharts I previously reffered to have been removed from the county website.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The computer will not work it out.

Course adjustment Shots have always been applied manually.

It is the sort of thing worked out by a committee in charge of a competition and declared before the start of a competition.
		
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What software does your club use,  Club V1 works it out for the player providing the administrator has ticked the correct box when setting up the competition.


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			What software does your club use,  Club V1 works it out for the player providing the administrator has ticked the correct box when setting up the competition.
		
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 I never set up the competitions (just the rules of the comp) that is done by the club manager or club secretary. Generally speaking the more formal mixed comps are run by the Ladies section I will get them to check when the new software is set up.

Most of our club mixed comps that I get involved in are fun non standard comps like Texas scrambles.


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