# Benefits culture



## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 2, 2017)

I overheard a conversation at the club today about Britain and it's benefits culture, seemed to be 2 views on offer.

1) All fit and able bodied people should earn their benefits by working for them doing things such as litter clearance and the various other tasks that local councils don't have the money to fund.

or

2) They should be allowed to sit at home and contribute nothing to society as forcing them to work for benefits amounts to slave labour and infringes on their human rights.


Your views on this?


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 2, 2017)

no.1 without doubt.


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2017)

I play golf with an Indian guy and he tells me that back home EVERYONE works for a living. If they can only rubber stamp paperwork they do that for a wage - of course they are "looked after" but they do have to do something


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2017)

I doubt you'll find anyone that disagrees with option one mate. However, it's far trickier in real life as you will be faced with many reasons why people can't get out to "work". Single mothers, incapacitated adults, mental health issues. 

Just how do we propose to overcome all the current issues that people use to excuse themselves from contributing already?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2017)

Believe people who are fit and healthy and on job seekers allowance should be given council jobs to work for their benefits


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## anotherdouble (Apr 2, 2017)

It truly saddens me when I hear benefits called wages or when people on benefits say ' I can't do anything this week as I don't get paid til next .......day'


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I overheard a conversation at the club today about Britain and it's benefits culture, seemed to be 2 views on offer.

1) All fit and able bodied people should earn their benefits by working for them doing things such as litter clearance and the various other tasks that local councils don't have the money to fund.

or

2) They should be allowed to sit at home and contribute nothing to society as forcing them to work for benefits amounts to slave labour and infringes on their human rights.


Your views on this?
		
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If Answer 1 was so easy why hasn't it been implemented by now.

Answer 2 is normally given by those who have no idea how job seekers allowance works.

Plenty of genuine unemployed people out there who would love an opportunity to work, we just tar them all with same brush.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			I doubt you'll find anyone that disagrees with option one mate. However, it's far trickier in real life as you will be faced with many reasons why people can't get out to "work". Single mothers, incapacitated adults, mental health issues. 

Just how do we propose to overcome all the current issues that people use to excuse themselves from contributing already?
		
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agree with what you are saying apart from the bit where people can't get out to work, as against people won't get out to work.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't like either option.

Give them, say, 3 months to find a job before insisting they trigger an insistence that they work xx hours a week on social schemes for the benefit of society. If after a further 3 months of part time work to earn their benefits they still haven't got a job, up the number of hours they have to work for the state.

But lets not forget, there are a significant number of people who absolutely need support from the state. I'd like to see some benefits increased for the most needy, and I'd happily pay more tax to support that. 

As for benefit scroungers, yes there are some who really do abuse the system. I know 4 generations of the dark side of my family that really do know how to screw the system and have never (officially) worked. The list of scams is unreal.


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## Dasit (Apr 2, 2017)

The casual benefits culture is toxic. 

Generations of families and whole communities some times. Nobody working and feeling entitled to be looked after by the state.

Very difficult to deal with.


I think universal income is the future and will solve the problem, the average person will mostly have leisure time, and vast majority of work will be part time.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Plenty of genuine unemployed people out there who would love an opportunity to work, we just tar them all with same brush.
		
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And that is a sad fact, there are also those who live in areas were there are few opportunities for work and moving would cost money they don't have even if moving was an option or desire.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Believe people who are fit and healthy and on job seekers allowance should be given council jobs to work for their benefits
		
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Excellent idea, we can then make the existing council workers redundant and then they can claim job se.........oh hang on..... maybees not such a great idea. :clap:


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't like either options and it isn't that clear cut. Plenty on jobseekers would like to work and their not all shirking. Of course there are some that are. I don't think it's a black and white issue although it's one that needs addressing as there is a portion of the population exploiting it and this should be stopped


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Believe people who are fit and healthy and on job seekers allowance should be given council jobs to work for their benefits
		
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the way i see it.  your on benefits?  you now work for the government.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Plenty of genuine unemployed people out there who would love an opportunity to work, we just tar them all with same brush.
		
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I'm sorry but when i hear this i just think of when i lost my job and got a new one within an hour.  ok, it was delivering Chinese food but i could look myself in the mirror. 

there are plenty of jobs available, just crap ones that they feel their too good for


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## PIng (Apr 2, 2017)

Another option - fruit farmers, hoteliers etc are moaning that there will be a shortage of labour if/when Brexit results in a reduction of East Europeans coming over to work. People on benefits who are fit to work could fill the gap, without putting existing jobs at risk.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

i often call on these types of homes to fit smoke detectors.  i never tire of saying to the home owner when they open the door at 11.00 in their pajamas "oh, im sorry, do you work nights"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

hovis said:



			I'm sorry but when i hear this i just think of when i lost my job and got a new one within an hour.  ok, it was delivering Chinese food but i could look myself in the mirror. 

there are plenty of jobs available, just crap ones that they feel their too good for
		
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Garbage, My lad searched high and low for 8 months when he finished Uni and would of took anything he'd been offered, not everyone lives in large towns, some areas are high in unemployment and low in job opportunities.
What if you can't drive or have learning difficulties or just not suitable.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm of the view that if government has jobs that need doing they should hire people to do them rather than trying to get labour on the cheap.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Garbage, My lad searched high and low for 8 months when he finished Uni and would of took anything he'd been offered, not everyone lives in large towns, some areas are high in unemployment and low in job opportunities.
What if you can't drive or have learning difficulties or just not suitable.
		
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i have yet to meet anyone that couldn't get a job that wanted one.  when the recession hit my friend lost his job as a site manager on 50k a year.  he was sacked Friday morning And started working Tuesday morning packing cardboard boxes for minium wage.  how did he do that when everyone else was looking for a job?   he walked into every factory and shop in the area and got lucky after 9 hours.

there's always work.  i drove past Domino's pizza today and saw a sign "drivers wanted"


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2017)

The welfare system in the past's first objective was to asses people for what kind of work they were capable of doing then helping them into work.  If someone refused to cooperate with this system their benefits were removed.

There are certainly many people who are genuinely disabled but capable of doing some form of work  and others who have disabilities that make them unemployable.  There are unfortunately others that just dont want to work or are unemployable due to their attitudes and lifestyles, for anyone to suggest this is not a fairly large problem is naive IMO.   There are also the Baby making machines where the men are good at  knocking out kids but absent when it comes to supporting them, then there are the Women who have kids by many different Fathers and  see the children as cash machines.   The only way to address some of this is to be less generous with welfare support.  Unfortunately it's difficult on the children but there could be better ways of making sure food, clothing etc was given to the children rather than cash direct to the feckless parents. Giving work to people who dont get jobs is a good idea as it introduces structure and work ethic into their lives.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

hovis said:



			i have yet to meet anyone that couldn't get a job that wanted one.  when the recession hit my friend lost his job as a site manager on 50k a year.  he was sacked Friday morning And started working Tuesday morning packing cardboard boxes for minium wage.  how did he do that when everyone else was looking for a job?   he walked into every factory and shop in the area and got lucky after 9 hours.

there's always work.  i drove past Domino's pizza today and saw a sign "drivers wanted"
		
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3 Million unemployed and you've given 2 examples, What's the point of Dominoes if you can't drive!
You're mate was probably very experienced and has a lot to offer, I'd employ him over some clueless spotty 16yr old.
If it was that easy someone in power would of worked it out by now.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2017)

hovis said:



			there's always work.  i drove past Domino's pizza today and saw a sign "drivers wanted"
		
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Ideal,

If a) you can legally drive
and b) you own a car - yes you use your own car, so now you need business insurance.

All of the above require - money.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			3 Million unemployed and you've given 2 examples, What's the point of Dominoes if you can't drive!
You're mate was probably very experienced and has a lot to offer, I'd employ him over some clueless spotty 16yr old.
If it was that easy someone in power would of worked it out by now.
		
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of them 3 million how many actually want a job?   i spend my working day with these people and believe me, my eyes are wide open.  on the plus side it does leave more jobs for the people that actually want them


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			3 Million unemployed and you've given 2 examples, What's the point of Dominoes if you can't drive!
You're mate was probably very experienced and has a lot to offer, I'd employ him over some clueless spotty 16yr old.
If it was that easy someone in power would of worked it out by now.
		
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Three million EU immigrants seem to find jobs.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Three million EU immigrants seem to find jobs.
		
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that is a very good point.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

hovis said:



			of them 3 million how many actually want a job?   i spend my working day with these people and believe me, my eyes are wide open.  on the plus side it does leave more jobs for the people that actually want them
		
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No one is saying there are people cheating the system, but to tar everyone with the same brush is stupid, the imbalance of jobs v people around the Country is out of kilter, just like you claim to see these people everyday, I live amongst them and see everyday both sides.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Three million EU immigrants seem to find jobs.
		
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All being paid the minmum wage, all living in decent accommodation, none being controlled by gangs and all legal :thup:


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Three million EU immigrants seem to find jobs.
		
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And for me there in lies a problem. 3 million unemployed and 3 million Eu workers. By my simple reckoning there should not be one person from this country unemployed. There should be three million people paying tax, there should be three million less people claiming benefits.
The question is,,Why is that not the case.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			All being paid the minmum wage, all living in decent accommodation, none being controlled by gangs and all legal :thup:
		
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Now who's tarring everybody with the same brush?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			And for me there in lies a problem. 3 million unemployed and 3 million Eu workers. By my simple reckoning there should not be one person from this country unemployed. There should be three million people paying tax, there should be three million less people claiming benefits.
The question is,,Why is that not the case.
		
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Because it's not that simple Tashy, Don't think we'll find an unemployed Nurse to replace a Nurse from the EU, do you? not everyone of those 3 million are doing jobs that the 3 Million unemployed could do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

SaintHacker said:



			Now who's tarring everybody with the same brush?
		
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I'm being sacastic :thup:


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## snell (Apr 2, 2017)

hovis said:



			I'm sorry but when i hear this i just think of when i lost my job and got a new one within an hour.  ok, it was delivering Chinese food but i could look myself in the mirror. 

there are plenty of jobs available, just crap ones that they feel their too good for
		
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It's not that easy.

Go on Reed and Indeed and you can normally see how many people have applied for certain jobs....always in the hundreds for normal run of the mill Jobs like cleaners, retail workers etc. 

But there are no doubt loads of people out there who have zero interest in getting an actual job.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Because it's not that simple Tashy, Don't think we'll find an unemployed Nurse to replace a Nurse from the EU, do you? not everyone of those 3 million are doing jobs that the 3 Million unemployed could do.
		
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Exactly paul, I mentioned earlier on about governments helping to create part of this problem by not funding training and helping to create a system where it is deemed better to bring Filipino nurses over or Spanish, Irish etc etc. 
People are leaving uni etc and cannot get jobs because it's easier or cheaper to import the skills.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 2, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Exactly paul, I mentioned earlier on about governments helping to create part of this problem by not funding training and helping to create a system where it is deemed better to bring Filipino nurses over or Spanish, Irish etc etc. 
People are leaving uni etc and cannot get jobs because it's easier or cheaper to import the skills.
		
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But people aren't leaving the education system with the right qualifications. All too often education is wasted on media type stuff, as many youngsters think they can be some sort of reality star and not have to work properly for a living.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Exactly paul, I mentioned earlier on about governments helping to create part of this problem by not funding training and helping to create a system where it is deemed better to bring Filipino nurses over or Spanish, Irish etc etc. 
People are leaving uni etc and cannot get jobs because it's easier or cheaper to import the skills.
		
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Totally agree we should be getting all 3 Million into work, the using the 3 million immigrants is a red herring, 5% of NHS Staff are EU immigrants, we have EU Immigrants working as Fireman and other highly skilled jobs, so without the time and investment to get these skilled people we will always need immigrants from either the EU or the RoW and will never have nil unemployment.
Certainly need to target the professional unemployed and don't jail them, make them work.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I'm being sacastic :thup:
		
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Fair one. We need a sarcasm smiley


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## Simbo (Apr 2, 2017)

Option 1 without a doubt but it's never going to happen in this politically correct climate.
A lot of people don't want to work because most of the time they will earn minimum wage and not be that much better off than if they were on the dole.
One of the cleaners at my work said that he's only about Â£50 a week better off for doing a 40 hour week. He said if he cleaned 3 peoples gutters on their roof for 2 hours on the side and claimed brew money, he could spend the other 38 a week sitting about drinking cheap beer. 
But there are jobs out there if you want one, you just need to go and find them.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But people aren't leaving the education system with the right qualifications. All too often education is wasted on media type stuff, as many youngsters think they can be some sort of reality star and not have to work properly for a living.
		
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This is why I have mentioned that the government needs to do more to help those that want to go into nursing, firefighting etc etc. How can we survive long term if the answer to our professional jobs ( and non skilled jobs) is by importing people from around the world.
There are people that want to work, yet doors are slammed shut. Why?
There are people that do not want to work, but they should be shoved through doors and told you will work or benefits will be cut.


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## Beezerk (Apr 2, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			All being paid the minmum wage, all living in decent accommodation, none being controlled by gangs and all legal :thup:
		
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Really? Some have made a great life for themselves here, others I know live 8 to an apartment, eat only rice and beans and send every penny back to their nation of birth.
You need to get into more factories where minimum wage is the norm mate, it ain't pretty I guarantee that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Really? Some have made a great life for themselves here, others I know live 8 to an apartment, eat only rice and beans and send every penny back to their nation of birth.
You need to get into more factories where minimum wage is the norm mate, it ain't pretty I guarantee that.
		
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It was sarcastic in response to the post I quoted!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Really? Some have made a great life for themselves here, others I know live 8 to an apartment, eat only rice and beans and send every penny back to their nation of birth.
You need to get into more factories where minimum wage is the norm mate, it ain't pretty I guarantee that.
		
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When you have an unlimited supply of people willing to work for minimum wage or less then there will be no push factor for these people to work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I overheard a conversation at the club today about Britain and it's benefits culture, seemed to be 2 views on offer.

1) All fit and able bodied people should earn their benefits by working for them doing things such as litter clearance and the various other tasks that local councils don't have the money to fund.

or

2) They should be allowed to sit at home and contribute nothing to society as forcing them to work for benefits amounts to slave labour and infringes on their human rights.


Your views on this?
		
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An equivalent already exists.  If you have been looking for work for a while and haven't found anything your work coach can offer you a job -0 and if you don;t take it you'll be sanctioned.  

My son was sanctioned for refusing a job at Tesco - stacking shelves on zero pay.  He refused it because Tesco tried to give him a criminal record 5 years earlier for a very petty shop lift - police told Tesco top stop being silly (vindictive)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			When you have an unlimited supply of people willing to work for minimum wage or less then there will be no push factor for these people to work.
		
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This is why (so we are told) we have to cut the unskilled workforce coming from overseas. So that our unemployed can be forced to get out of their flea-pits to work for a pittance on a zero hours contract.  Attractive.

I was speaking with one of my sons 24yr old mates at the weekend.  He has just got a job - full time contract - on Â£7.05 an hour.  He doesn't care that it is _only_ Â£7.05/hr - it is the fact that it is full time contracted hours that is making his heart sing.  And he is like a pig in clover with his take-home of Â£1000 a month.

Zero hours contracts are as far as I can see a huge disincentive to getting folk into work.  The hassle of claiming in-work benefit when on a zero hours contract is a nightmare when the lad explained it to me.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2017)

hovis said:



			i have yet to meet anyone that couldn't get a job that wanted one.  when the recession hit my friend lost his job as a site manager on 50k a year.  he was sacked Friday morning And started working Tuesday morning packing cardboard boxes for minium wage.  how did he do that when everyone else was looking for a job?   he walked into every factory and shop in the area and got lucky after 9 hours.

there's always work.  i drove past Domino's pizza today and saw a sign "drivers wanted"
		
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Which area of the country do you live in?

I mainly agree with get them to do litter picking, painting badly off pensioners homes and all other "community schemes" BTW. I'm also from a family that has its fair share of long term doleites, and also some who struggled to find work in the late 70/early 80's, when 3-4 million unemployed was the norm.

Ok, there isn't that level of unemployment now, but you cant fit all people and all areas into one nice easy label.

Hobbit for PM!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Three million EU immigrants seem to find jobs.
		
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But how many of them are actually "legal" jobs, whereby they are paid the miminum wage (or over), pay taxes, NI etc?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			And for me there in lies a problem. 3 million unemployed and 3 million Eu workers. By my simple reckoning there should not be one person from this country unemployed. There should be three million people paying tax, there should be three million less people claiming benefits.
The question is,,Why is that not the case.
		
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Agree in part, lets go back to 1930's Germany then, think that worked for them......


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is why (so we are told) we have to cut the unskilled workforce coming from overseas. So that our unemployed can be forced to get out of their flea-pits to work for a pittance on a zero hours contract.  Attractive.

I was speaking with one of my sons 24yr old mates at the weekend.  He has just got a job - full time contract - on Â£7.05 an hour.  He doesn't care that it is _only_ Â£7.05/hr - it is the fact that it is full time contracted hours that is making his heart sing.  And he is like a pig in clover with his take-home of Â£1000 a month.

Zero hours contracts are as far as I can see a huge disincentive to getting folk into work.  The hassle of claiming in-work benefit when on a zero hours contract is a nightmare when the lad explained it to me.
		
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Is Â£7.05 a legal wage? Its below the minimum for someone over 21.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is Â£7.05 a legal wage? Its below the minimum for someone over 21.
		
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It did sound a bit low...but that is what he told me he was getting paid.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2017)

Liverbirdie said:



			Agree in part, lets go back to 1930's Germany then, think that worked for them......
		
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My response was mainly being sarcastic, but and it is a massive but. 3 million eu migrants travel from the far reaches of the eu to work in this country. Doing all kinds of skilled, semi skilled and dead end jobs. Then we have some members of our public that quite frankly have no intentions of doing a days work. Yet more than get by, how's that supposed to be right. That should be addressed and sooner rather than later.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2017)

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is working a max of 16 hours. Some people want to do more than 16 hrs, but to do so means they lose benefits or end up working for nowt. Again if needs looking at


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## Reemul (Apr 3, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			One thing that has not been mentioned yet is working a max of 16 hours. Some people want to do more than 16 hrs, but to do so means they lose benefits or end up working for nowt. Again if needs looking at
		
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Yep it does, I have a 20 hour part time vacancy. I approached someone I know, the job is ok pay and fully flexible, any hours within the week just do 20 of them. Instant reply was no thanks I will be worse off, better keeping my benefits and not have to bother working. It's a nightmare really. He has no reason not to work we have to accept we are using our taxes to pay him to not bother working.

To add opposite me is family with 4 kids under 10 and a mum and dad. Housing association. 1 works part time the other not at all. They have 2 cars, virgin TV had a week in Spain last summer and seem to have a better time of it than pretty much everyone in the cul de sac. I know there aren't millions of them but every time I see them I think why do you get benefits and working tax credits and reduced council tax etc etc I know I don't. The scales are wrong and if you are on the gravy train well your luck is in but if you aren't you are screwed.

Re balancing is harder than it looks but these working tax credits that boost pay are and have been a slippery slope to when the businesses don't have to pay a decent wage and tax payers make up the difference and once on it it's not easy getting people off it.

Benefits should be a safety for those that are in need and those most at risk and I think all people agree with this what they are not is easy street which for some they have become.

I have another example, I had a lady working for me, she was pregnant and her boyfriend kicked he out and left her out to dry. The housing association gave her a 2 bedroom terrace house in a town centre, great property and exactly what she needed no issue at all. 18 years later she has a new husband, her daughter is grown up she has a joint income of Â£60k with her husband and they still live there, paying Â£96 a week rent. It isn't right, the property should be being used for people like she was not for like she is now, she can afford now to pay her way but she cannot be made so continues along happy as larry even knowing if she and her husband lose their jobs they will keep their property.

The above is what makes people angry


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2017)

I suppose the problem here is the Unemployment benefit and income support where never designed as a long term, it was supposed to tie you over until you got a job. Now there a a few who its a lifestyle choice.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			I suppose the problem here is the Unemployment benefit and income support where never designed as a long term, it was supposed to tie you over until you got a job. *Now there a a few who its a lifestyle choice*.
		
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Too true. I genuinely feel for  kids who  are growing up watching their parents doss about thinking it's the norm. 

The lack of apprenticeships don't help these kids getting a chance neither.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is why (so we are told) we have to cut the unskilled workforce coming from overseas. So that our unemployed can be forced to get out of their flea-pits to work for a pittance on a zero hours contract.  Attractive.

I was speaking with one of my sons 24yr old mates at the weekend.  He has just got a job - full time contract - on Â£7.05 an hour.  He doesn't care that it is _only_ Â£7.05/hr - it is the fact that it is full time contracted hours that is making his heart sing.  And he is like a pig in clover with his take-home of Â£1000 a month.

Zero hours contracts are as far as I can see a huge disincentive to getting folk into work.  The hassle of claiming in-work benefit when on a zero hours contract is a nightmare when the lad explained it to me.
		
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Minimum wage traps many people on low wages due to the numbers of overseas people hapy to work for it as its four times what they can earn in their own countries.  

Why on earth is this Lad wanting in work benefits if he is taking home Â£1000 a month?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			Too true. I genuinely feel for  kids who  are growing up watching their parents doss about thinking it's the norm. 

*The lack of apprenticeships don't help these kids getting a chance neither*.
		
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In 2015/16, there were 509,400 apprenticeship starts in England, 9,500 more than the previous year


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			In 2015/16, there were 509,400 apprenticeship starts in England, 9,500 more than the previous year
		
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You can throw stats about as much as you like, my point still remains.

Funding from the government for apprenticeships has been slashed dramatically. It's costing firms too much money to employ them. I know 2 Assessors who have been told that after this years students have finished that's it, no more new starters. 

A few of their ex colleagues who work for other companies have been told the same.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2017)

I also see the other end of the scale, doing casework for the British Legion and Ex-Servicemen's and their families asking for food vouchers or help with white goods or stairlifts etc.

When I interview them I have to fill out a financial statement and it's ridiculous just how little some survive on.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			You can throw stats about as much as you like, my point still remains.

Funding from the government for apprenticeships has been slashed dramatically. It's costing firms too much money to employ them. I know 2 Assessors who have been told that after this years students have finished that's it, no more new starters. 

A few of their ex colleagues who work for other companies have been told the same.
		
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Please show some evidence that government funding for apprenticeships has been slashed?

http://apprenticeships.qa.com/employers/government-funding-and-grants

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-apprenticeship-funding-to-transform-investment-in-skills


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Please show some evidence that government funding for apprenticeships has been slashed?

http://apprenticeships.qa.com/employers/government-funding-and-grants

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-apprenticeship-funding-to-transform-investment-in-skills

Click to expand...

government/publications/apprenticeship-levy-how-it-will-work/apprenticeship-levy-how


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			My response was mainly being sarcastic, but and it is a massive but. 3 million eu migrants travel from the far reaches of the eu to work in this country. Doing all kinds of skilled, semi skilled and dead end jobs. Then we have some members of our public that quite frankly have no intentions of doing a days work. Yet more than get by, how's that supposed to be right. That should be addressed and sooner rather than later.
		
Click to expand...

I think you've answered your own question.

I think we should have a system a bit like the exchange students scheme - We send our long term doleites to Bulgaria, and we get their work hungry people.


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## Raesy92 (Apr 3, 2017)

From another thread but also applies to this one ...

Around 1% of welfare benefits is spent on unemployment benefits. It's a tiny proportion of government spending yet everyone seems to take most exception to this. Of this 1% an even smaller percentage will be people claiming the benefit and not even looking/wanting to work. Of course these people will be receiving other benefits such as housing and child support but the reality is that there are much larger issues at hand. One mainly being tax evasion from the richest in society, yet we chastise the poorest.

Maybe somewhat surprisingly, unclaimed benefits are higher than that of benefit fraud. While there are obviously those that milk the benefit systems, it is probably a much smaller percentage that what you actually think.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			From another thread but also applies to this one ...

Around 1% of welfare benefits is spent on unemployment benefits. It's a tiny proportion of government spending yet everyone seems to take most exception to this. Of this 1% an even smaller percentage will be people claiming the benefit and not even looking/wanting to work. Of course these people will be receiving other benefits such as housing and child support but the reality is that there are much larger issues at hand. One mainly being tax evasion from the richest in society, yet we chastise the poorest.

Maybe somewhat surprisingly, unclaimed benefits are higher than that of benefit fraud. While there are obviously those that milk the benefit systems, it is probably a much smaller percentage that what you actually think.



Click to expand...

:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			government/publications/apprenticeship-levy-how-it-will-work/apprenticeship-levy-how
		
Click to expand...

Can you please explain what your point is and how the Government are cutting funding.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			From another thread but also applies to this one ...

Around 1% of welfare benefits is spent on unemployment benefits. It's a tiny proportion of government spending yet everyone seems to take most exception to this. Of this 1% an even smaller percentage will be people claiming the benefit and not even looking/wanting to work. Of course these people will be receiving other benefits such as housing and child support but the reality is that there are much larger issues at hand. One mainly being tax evasion from the richest in society, yet we chastise the poorest.

Maybe somewhat surprisingly, unclaimed benefits are higher than that of benefit fraud. While there are obviously those that milk the benefit systems, it is probably a much smaller percentage that what you actually think.



Click to expand...

You're pissing in the wind with those types of stats. Far easier to blame the problems of the world on the workshy and feckless than it is to face some difficult truths.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you please explain what your point is and how the Government are cutting funding.
		
Click to expand...

For such an educated chap, why can't you understand what I've written?

Government has cut funding for apprenticeships as employers now have to pay a greater % to training  than what they used to.


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## ADB (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			For such an educated chap, why can't you understand what I've written?

Government has cut funding for apprenticeships as employers now have to pay a greater % to training  than what they used to.
		
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Even so, for a Â£12k apprenticeship the Govt will contribute Â£8k - is that worse than before as seems a good deal to me (assuming your business turns over less than Â£3m)? Just interested


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			For such an educated chap, why can't you understand what I've written?

Government has cut funding for apprenticeships as employers now have to pay a greater % to training  than what they used to.
		
Click to expand...

For an educated chap you are being rather obtuse.  Please show where the government share of apprenticeship funding is lower.

Apprenticeships have always been funded mainly by the Employer with grants from the Government.  Training Apprentices is good for the Employer as it creates skilled employees at subsidised costs.  Apprentice  wages are quite low but that has always been the case even back in the 1950s/60s/70/s and so on.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



*For an educated chap you are being rather obtuse.*  Please show where the government share of apprenticeship funding is lower.

Apprenticeships have always been funded mainly by the Employer with grants from the Government.  Training Apprentices is good for the Employer as it creates skilled employees at subsidised costs.  Apprentice  wages are quite low but that has always been the case even back in the 1950s/60s/70/s and so on.
		
Click to expand...

Could you clarify what you've posted?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			From another thread but also applies to this one ...

Around 1% of welfare benefits is spent on unemployment benefits. It's a tiny proportion of government spending yet everyone seems to take most exception to this. Of this 1% an even smaller percentage will be people claiming the benefit and not even looking/wanting to work. Of course these people will be receiving other benefits such as housing and child support but the reality is that there are much larger issues at hand. One mainly being tax evasion from the richest in society, yet we chastise the poorest.

Maybe somewhat surprisingly, unclaimed benefits are higher than that of benefit fraud. While there are obviously those that milk the benefit systems, it is probably a much smaller percentage that what you actually think.



Click to expand...

Your 1% figure is a little misleading.  If you simply look at the figure as unemployment benefits then the figure is in fact a small percentage of welfare overall but still a lot of money at around Â£2.4 Billion.  There are also payments made as Disability benefits and as we would all agree there are many who are deserving cases but it would be very naive to believe there are not many claiming this benefit who are quite capable of doing a job.  There is then housing benefit and a whole raft of tax credits.   The total here is a great deal of money and money that could be put to better use.

Tax evasion is also a disgrace but is a different issue and needs addressing in it's own right.  It is not correct to infer that while some don't pay their fair share of tax it somehow makes it OK for others to fiddle welfare.  Where ever you live it's possible to see the feckless workshy out and about and people suggesting it's a small number that costs us next to nothing are extremely naive IMO of course.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			Could you clarify what you've posted?
		
Click to expand...

Just read my recent posts on Apprenticeships and the appropriate links.  maybe you could answer my question?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Tax evasion is also a disgrace but is a different issue and needs addressing in it's own right.  It is not correct to infer that while some don't pay their fair share of tax it somehow makes it OK for others to fiddle welfare.  Where ever you live it's possible to see the feckless workshy out and about and people suggesting it's a small number that costs us next to nothing are extremely naive IMO of course.
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately society [seemingly] views those that fiddle their taxes differently from those that claim benefit... The former are heroes and the latter are villains...


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Unfortunately society [seemingly] views those that fiddle their taxes differently from those that claim benefit... The former are heroes and the latter are villains...
		
Click to expand...

We see what we're told to see. I wonder if there's any connection between the groups who tell us what's wrong with society and the people most at fault for society's ills?


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## Stuart_C (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Just read my recent posts on Apprenticeships and the appropriate links.  maybe you could answer my question?
		
Click to expand...

The highlighted bit?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Your 1% figure is a little misleading.  If you simply look at the figure as unemployment benefits then the figure is in fact a small percentage of welfare overall but still a lot of money at around Â£2.4 Billion.  There are also payments made as Disability benefits and as we would all agree there are many who are deserving cases but it would be very naive to believe there are not many claiming this benefit who are quite capable of doing a job.  There is then housing benefit and a whole raft of tax credits.   The total here is a great deal of money and money that could be put to better use.

Tax evasion is also a disgrace but is a different issue and needs addressing in it's own right.  It is not correct to infer that while some don't pay their fair share of tax it somehow makes it OK for others to fiddle welfare.  Where ever you live it's possible to see the feckless workshy out and about and people suggesting it's a small number that costs us next to nothing are extremely naive IMO of course.
		
Click to expand...

16 Billion owed to HMRC in 2016 alone and as much as you say it's a disgrace you still twisted your answer back to the minority and feckless workshy, no words to describe the tax dodging fraudsters though.


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## Raesy92 (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Your 1% figure is a little misleading.  If you simply look at the figure as unemployment benefits then the figure is in fact a small percentage of welfare overall but still a lot of money at around Â£2.4 Billion.  There are also payments made as Disability benefits and as we would all agree there are many who are deserving cases but it would be very naive to believe there are not many claiming this benefit who are quite capable of doing a job.  There is then housing benefit and a whole raft of tax credits.   The total here is a great deal of money and money that could be put to better use.

Tax evasion is also a disgrace but is a different issue and needs addressing in it's own right.  It is not correct to infer that while some don't pay their fair share of tax it somehow makes it OK for others to fiddle welfare.  Where ever you live it's possible to see the feckless workshy out and about and people suggesting it's a small number that costs us next to nothing are extremely naive IMO of course.
		
Click to expand...

You have just stated my 1% figure is misleading then went on to give a few other reasons that I had already mentioned in my post, so the figure was not misleading at all.

I have also not stated that there are not those that are workshy, but the difference between those that avoid paying tax and those that claim benefits unfairly is massive. You would think it was the other way around. If you read my post I have also mentioned benefit fraud, think the total for this is just over Â£1billion. The total for underpaid/overpaid benefits is in fact higher than this. Again those claiming benefits fraudulently, is probably much less than you are led to believe.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			You have just stated my 1% figure is misleading then went on to give a few other reasons that I had already mentioned in my post, so the figure was not misleading at all.

I have also not stated that there are not those that are workshy, but the difference between those that avoid paying tax and those that claim benefits unfairly is massive. You would think it was the other way around. If you read my post I have also mentioned benefit fraud, think the total for this is just over Â£1billion. The total for underpaid/overpaid benefits is in fact higher than this. Again those claiming benefits fraudulently, is probably much less than you are led to believe.
		
Click to expand...

One problem is many are claiming benefits legally but shouldn't be.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			16 Billion owed to HMRC in 2016 alone and as much as you say it's a disgrace you still twisted your answer back to the minority and feckless workshy, no words to describe the tax dodging fraudsters though.
		
Click to expand...

You are ignoring my point, deliberately I suspect .   I am saying they are two different issues and neither are right but why suggest that because some evade tax it makes it OK for others to misuse claiming benefits.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are ignoring my point, deliberately I suspect .   I am saying they are two different issues and neither are right but why suggest that because some evade tax it makes it OK for others to misuse claiming benefits.
		
Click to expand...

No one is saying that, you seem to brushing over the tax dodgers and continuing your attack on the benefit cheats, (look at the language you use to describe them both) both bad as each other, which one is there a crusade against?


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## Reemul (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			No one is saying that, you seem to brushing over the tax dodgers and continuing your attack on the benefit cheats, (look at the language you use to describe them both) both bad as each other, which one is there a crusade against?
		
Click to expand...

There should be a crusade against both. The problem with tax dodgers is it is an unseen crime whereas we can all see the scroungers out and about which drives it home more.

We definitely need to get to grips with tax avoidance and it's issues. I have mates that are self employed plumbers and IT contractors etc and they pay a lot less tax than I do while earning a lot more than me, this includes my brother and brother in law and it really annoys me. They have accountants using all sorts of tricks while I have to use PAYE.

But Tax avoidance and Benefit scroungers both need dealing with and are both an issue not issues to use to beat each other over. Certainly the money raised could be used to support the NHS and care for the elderly pretty much immediately. A political party could make themselves very very popular if they could get this issue sorted quickly and efficiently.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Believe people who are fit and healthy and on job seekers allowance should be given council jobs to work for their benefits
		
Click to expand...

I might not disagree - with them getting paid the max of the minimum wage or their benefits.  Though it would have to be recognised that the job could only be 3-4 days a week as the unemployed need time to go to interviews - both with the DWP and potential employers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Minimum wage traps many people on low wages due to the numbers of overseas people hapy to work for it as its four times what they can earn in their own countries.  

Why on earth is this Lad wanting in work benefits if he is taking home Â£1000 a month?
		
Click to expand...

He's not.  Absolutely not.  He just tells me of the problems with being on a zero hours contract when you can claim 'in work' benefits if the hours you end up working one week qualify you - but the next week they don't.

I can hardly tell you how pleased he was to have this job - Â£7.05 an hour - the rate didn't bother him - what he was absolutely ecstatic about was that it was full time contracted hours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			From another thread but also applies to this one ...

Around 1% of welfare benefits is spent on unemployment benefits. It's a tiny proportion of government spending yet everyone seems to take most exception to this. Of this 1% an even smaller percentage will be people claiming the benefit and not even looking/wanting to work. Of course these people will be receiving other benefits such as housing and child support but the reality is that there are much larger issues at hand. One mainly being tax evasion from the richest in society, yet we chastise the poorest.

Maybe somewhat surprisingly, unclaimed benefits are higher than that of benefit fraud. While there are obviously those that milk the benefit systems, it is probably a much smaller percentage that what you actually think.



Click to expand...

Correct.  Again - my son have friends on zero hours contracts who could claim but don't as it is too much hassle.  And my son's girlfriend is unemployed and could claim JSA - but she doesn't as - again - it is too much hassle and actually she doesn't want to as that is all she's known in her family - and she is trying to reject that culture (though she is still struggling with the idea of getting and holding a job - that's her background).  

Instead she and my son struggle along on what he can earn while he encourages and helps her with job applications and getting her head around work...yes - for someone brought up in a culture of dependency it is proving difficult for her to get her head around earning money for herself.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			No one is saying that, you seem to brushing over the tax dodgers and continuing your attack on the benefit cheats, (look at the language you use to describe them both) both bad as each other, which one is there a crusade against?
		
Click to expand...

I seem to be wasting my time discussing anything with you as you seem to have a preconceived prejudice that over rides anything I post.   I made it very clear that I disagree with tax evasion but this thread is about 'Benefit Culture' so that is the main point in discussion.   If you want to open another thread on Tax evasion then I would be quite happy to agree with you that tax evasion is a problem.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I seem to be wasting my time discussing anything with you as you seem to have a preconceived prejudice that over rides anything I post.   I made it very clear that I disagree with tax evasion but this thread is about 'Benefit Culture' so that is the main point in discussion.   If you want to open another thread on Tax evasion then I would be quite happy to agree with you that tax evasion is a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Nice deflection, we've both agreed both  benefit fraudsters and tax evaders are wrong, I simply asked why you described both set of scumbags differently.
Not as if you've kept every thread on point is it?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice deflection, we've both agreed both  benefit fraudsters and tax evaders are wrong, I simply asked why you described both set of scumbags differently.
Not as if you've kept every thread on point is it?
		
Click to expand...

What deflection!  You really are getting tied in knots here, probably best to just leave it there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What deflection!  You really are getting tied in knots here, probably best to just leave it there.
		
Click to expand...

So still no answer as to why you didn't give a nasty description of the tax evaders


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## DRW (Apr 4, 2017)

There is a big difference between Benefit cheats and tax evasion imho.:mmm:

Benefit cheats take from the tax paying public(government)

Tax evasion(alone) do not take, but do not give to the public(government) but have earnt their own money.

Very small but imho a really important difference.

This is why typically you are more likely to be prosecuted if you are a benefit cheat. Tax evasion in most cases you are not prosecuted but are charged heavy penalties for (notice this is not tax avoidance which is legal and remember the government make the laws, do not confuse the two which the government nowdays like to do on a 'moral' standing but I think it is safe to say if you legally did not have to pay tax under  law, then you would probably wish to pay less than you currently do.... )


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2017)

Call me a libtard but I'm quite happy to live in a society that provides welfare for those that need it. Even of that means some will abuse the system. Whist we should try and reduce the fraud, I'd much rather focus on the good the welfare system does. Even though I know that does not sell many papers that need to keep middle England angry and resentful.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I overheard a conversation at the club today about Britain and it's benefits culture, seemed to be 2 views on offer.

1) All fit and able bodied people should earn their benefits by working for them doing things such as litter clearance and the various other tasks that local councils don't have the money to fund.

or

2) They should be allowed to sit at home and contribute nothing to society as forcing them to work for benefits amounts to slave labour and infringes on their human rights.


Your views on this?
		
Click to expand...

This has gone way of track. The question is should fit and able bodied people on benefits be made to earn them. The thread is not about immigration, tax dodging or anything else along those lines.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 4, 2017)

Reemul said:



			There should be a crusade against both. The problem with tax dodgers is it is an unseen crime whereas we can all see the scroungers out and about which drives it home more.

We definitely need to get to grips with tax avoidance and it's issues. I have mates that are self employed plumbers and IT contractors etc and they pay a lot less tax than I do while earning a lot more than me, this includes my brother and brother in law and it really annoys me. They have accountants using all sorts of tricks while I have to use PAYE.

But Tax avoidance and Benefit scroungers both need dealing with and are both an issue not issues to use to beat each other over. Certainly the money raised could be used to support the NHS and care for the elderly pretty much immediately. A political party could make themselves very very popular if they could get this issue sorted quickly and efficiently.
		
Click to expand...

Don't get me started on tax-dodging,self-employed plumbers, a particular place in Dante's 9th circle of hell for them......apart from when you have need of their services, of course.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			There is a big difference between Benefit cheats and tax evasion imho.:mmm:

Benefit cheats take from the tax paying public(government)

Tax evasion(alone) do not take, but do not give to the public(government) but have earnt their own money.

Very small but imho a really important difference.

This is why typically you are more likely to be prosecuted if you are a benefit cheat. Tax evasion in most cases you are not prosecuted but are charged heavy penalties for (notice this is not tax avoidance which is legal and remember the government make the laws, do not confuse the two which the government nowdays like to do on a 'moral' standing but I think it is safe to say if you legally did not have to pay tax under  law, then you would probably wish to pay less than you currently do.... )
		
Click to expand...

Imho there's no difference, both are defrauding me, you and every other honest person who pays their way.

The HMRC have powers the Benefits Agency doesn't and can impose such fines, also the HRMC have openly admitted it is better to fine than risk prosecution as those cases can and do go on for years costing millions.

The more money the Government gets in, the better it can look after society.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			This has gone way of track. The question is should fit and able bodied people on benefits be made to earn them. The thread is not about immigration, tax dodging or anything else along those lines.
		
Click to expand...

Oops ok, can we get them to edge the bunkers and brush the paths on local Munis then?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			This has gone way of track. The question is should fit and able bodied people on benefits be made to earn them. The thread is not about immigration, tax dodging or anything else along those lines.
		
Click to expand...

If only it was that simple :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			This has gone way of track. The question is should fit and able bodied people on benefits be made to earn them. The thread is not about immigration, tax dodging or anything else along those lines.
		
Click to expand...


I believe the community payback scheme has collapsed... 
So, not quite sure how you'd impose it on 'regular' folk...

Ohh... And, tax dodgers first please ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice deflection, we've both agreed both  benefit fraudsters and tax evaders are wrong, I simply asked why you described both set of scumbags differently.
Not as if you've kept every thread on point is it?
		
Click to expand...

Ah paul - @SR is very good at the deflection game...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Call me a libtard but I'm quite happy to live in a society that provides welfare for those that need it. Even of that means some will abuse the system. Whist we should try and reduce the fraud, I'd much rather focus on the good the welfare system does. Even though I know that does not sell many papers that need to keep middle England angry and resentful.
		
Click to expand...

ah - yer a just a libby snowflake - we should hammer the scroungers - no matter that in doing so there is some collateral damage...(don't you love that term)


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So still no answer as to why you didn't give a nasty description of the tax evaders 

Click to expand...

I just don't get your point.  I have explained that I believe tax evasion and benefit fraud are both equally wrong.   If you must continue to read something else into that then so be it.


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## GB72 (Apr 4, 2017)

There is always a problem with any tightening of the benefits system based on the adversarial nature of our party system. If benefits are cut then the immediate response is for the opposing party and the media to go into attack mode and berate any decision as taking money from those in need even if that is not the case. As such, it is rare for any widespread benefit reform. 

My opinion, we have developed a society of people who feel that they are 'entitled'. Benefits should apply to the bare essentials in life, housing, heating and food (as well as anything relating to any medical condition). What we have now is a section of society that feels that benefits should cover TVs, Sky, games consoles, Ipads and my pet hate, booze and fags. There is an argument that very little, if anything, in the way of benefits should be paid direct to the recipients. If the money was paid direct to the landlord, utility companies and the rest paid in food vouchers then the extravagancies that it currently funds would disappear. That may sound harsh but I look at how I spend my wages and if there was nothing left after paying the mortgage, bills and food costs then all of the other things go out the window. I quite smoking when I was made redundant during the recession and stopped going out because I could not afford it. Hell, I have no idea how most people can afford to smoke Â£10 a pack.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah paul - @SR is very good at the deflection game...

Click to expand...

Am I really.  Maybe you would like to back up that accusation or take it back.   I wait for your detailed reply.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

GB72 said:



			There is always a problem with any tightening of the benefits system based on the adversarial nature of our party system. If benefits are cut then the immediate response is for the opposing party and the media to go into attack mode and berate any decision as taking money from those in need even if that is not the case. As such, it is rare for any widespread benefit reform. 

My opinion, we have developed a society of people who feel that they are 'entitled'. Benefits should apply to the bare essentials in life, housing, heating and food (as well as anything relating to any medical condition). What we have now is a section of society that feels that benefits should cover TVs, Sky, games consoles, Ipads and my pet hate, booze and fags. There is an argument that very little, if anything, in the way of benefits should be paid direct to the recipients. If the money was paid direct to the landlord, utility companies and the rest paid in food vouchers then the extravagancies that it currently funds would disappear. That may sound harsh but I look at how I spend my wages and if there was nothing left after paying the mortgage, bills and food costs then all of the other things go out the window. I quite smoking when I was made redundant during the recession and stopped going out because I could not afford it. Hell, I have no idea how most people can afford to smoke Â£10 a pack.
		
Click to expand...

A good post


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Am I really.  Maybe you would like to back up that accusation or take it back.   I wait for your detailed reply.
		
Click to expand...

It's just my impression...of course I might be wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

GB72 said:



			There is always a problem with any tightening of the benefits system based on the adversarial nature of our party system. If benefits are cut then the immediate response is for the opposing party and the media to go into attack mode and berate any decision as taking money from those in need even if that is not the case. As such, it is rare for any widespread benefit reform. 

My opinion, we have developed a society of people who feel that they are 'entitled'. Benefits should apply to the bare essentials in life, housing, heating and food (as well as anything relating to any medical condition). What we have now is a section of society that feels that benefits should cover TVs, Sky, games consoles, Ipads and my pet hate, booze and fags. There is an argument that very little, if anything, in the way of benefits should be paid direct to the recipients. If the money was paid direct to the landlord, utility companies and the rest paid in food vouchers then the extravagancies that it currently funds would disappear. That may sound harsh but I look at how I spend my wages and if there was nothing left after paying the mortgage, bills and food costs then all of the other things go out the window. I quite smoking when I was made redundant during the recession and stopped going out because I could not afford it. Hell, I have no idea how most people can afford to smoke Â£10 a pack.
		
Click to expand...

Again totally agree all benefit fraud is wrong.

The last Government figures I can find showed that 1.6 Billion was fraudently claimed, 2.2 Billion was over paid by official and claimant error, Public Sector fraud was 20 Billion which included 14.9 Billion tax fraud.

My issue with statements like the one above is, you're targeting the most vulnerable, what about the dodgy landlords that won't look after properties who you'd pay, do you not think the scumbags would sell food vouchers to the detriment of the kids, we have mote food banks now than we ever did before. Not everybody on benefits drinks and smokes.

It's not as simple as targeting one area, it needs all areas targeting on a level playing field.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

GB72 said:



			There is always a problem with any tightening of the benefits system based on the adversarial nature of our party system. If benefits are cut then the immediate response is for the opposing party and the media to go into attack mode and berate any decision as taking money from those in need even if that is not the case. As such, it is rare for any widespread benefit reform. 

My opinion, we have developed a society of people who feel that they are 'entitled'. Benefits should apply to the bare essentials in life, housing, heating and food (as well as anything relating to any medical condition). What we have now is a section of society that feels that benefits should cover TVs, Sky, games consoles, Ipads and my pet hate, booze and fags. There is an argument that very little, if anything, in the way of benefits should be paid direct to the recipients. If the money was paid direct to the landlord, utility companies and the rest paid in food vouchers then the extravagancies that it currently funds would disappear. That may sound harsh but I look at how I spend my wages and if there was nothing left after paying the mortgage, bills and food costs then all of the other things go out the window. I quite smoking when I was made redundant during the recession and stopped going out because I could not afford it. Hell, I have no idea how most people can afford to smoke Â£10 a pack.
		
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I agree that our society across the board is much more one of individual entitlement - a society deep in ISMs - I Self Me. 

Some of the poorer feel entitled to have the stuff you mention; some of the wealthy feel entitled to keep as much as possible of what they earn and to live the quality of life to which that they have become accustomed.  Threaten the entitlements of anyone across that spectrum and you fuel resentments, anger, fear and the hunt for a scapegoat.

And so on June 23rd many looked around and saw immigrants in our country and voted as they did.  Because a scapegoat was required.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2017)

But its an infringement of their human rights that those that were brought up in a benefits culture shouldn't be able to go out several nights a week and have two holidays in Tenerife every year.

Tongue in cheek before the professionally offended start squealing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree that our society across the board is much more one of individual entitlement - a society deep in ISMs - I Self Me. 

Some of the poorer feel entitled to have the stuff you mention; some of the wealthy feel entitled to keep as much as possible of what they earn and to live the quality of life to which that they have become accustomed.  Threaten the entitlements of anyone across that spectrum and you fuel resentments, anger, fear and the hunt for a scapegoat.

And so on June 23rd many looked around and saw immigrants in our country and voted as they did.  Because a scapegoat was required.
		
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Seriously!!! Brexit again, you should've stopped after scapegoat, it goes a good post to "oh here we go again"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But its an infringement of their human rights that those that were brought up in a benefits culture shouldn't be able to go out several nights a week and have two holidays in Tenerife every year.

Tongue in cheek before the professionally offended start squealing.
		
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Your place isn't in Tenerife


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Your place isn't in Tenerife 

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And its Waaay more than two holidays


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree that our society across the board is much more one of individual entitlement - a society deep in ISMs - I Self Me. 

Some of the poorer feel entitled to have the stuff you mention; some of the wealthy feel entitled to keep as much as possible of what they earn and to live the quality of life to which that they have become accustomed.  Threaten the entitlements of anyone across that spectrum and you fuel resentments, anger, fear and the hunt for a scapegoat.

*And so on June 23rd many looked around and saw immigrants in our country and voted as they did.  Because a scapegoat was required*.
		
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You really are getting worse.  Brexititis is in most cases a mild form of paranoia but in your case totally incurable and liable to self combustion.   Keep away from naked flames.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously!!! Brexit again, you should've stopped after scapegoat, it goes a good post to "oh here we go again"
		
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I was just giving an example of where I believe that our sense of entitlement has brought us...and why I believe there is so much resentment around immigrants.  It's simply entitlement threatened - leading to resentment, fear and ultimately -
 anger...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was just giving an example of where I believe that our sense of entitlement has brought us...and why I believe there is so much resentment around immigrants.  It's simply entitlement threatened - leading to resentment, fear and ultimately -
 anger...
		
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I fail to see how entitlement has anything to do with peoples feelings over immigration.  If your post has an underlying meaning associated with the recent attack on an asylum seeker then it's a pretty low punch.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was just giving an example of where I believe that our sense of entitlement has brought us...and why I believe there is so much resentment around immigrants.  It's simply entitlement threatened - leading to resentment, fear and ultimately -
 anger...
		
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Purely my opinion, but it would be this way with or without Brexit, the me me me culture started with in the late 70's and scum will always be scum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I fail to see how entitlement has anything to do with peoples feelings over immigration.  If your post has an underlying meaning associated with the recent attack on an asylum seeker then it's a pretty low punch.
		
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If you don't see how some people's feelings of entitlement to - for example - get their child into the local school of their choice - and that they feel resentful and angry when they can't and there are many from the immigrant community who *have *got there children in - then I am not sure what I can do to explain.

And I wasn't for one second thinking about the Croydon attack - though it is interesting that you are.  Underlying meaning...?  You read too much between the lines.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Purely my opinion, but it would be this way with or without Brexit, the me me me culture started with in the late 70's and scum will always be scum.
		
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Oh it did.  I hesitate to mention Harry Enfields 'Loadsamoney', and the government of 1979 onwards that following on from the 'winter of discontent'.

We have gradually become ever more entitled - across the board - and when angry and unhappy will lash out looking for a scapegoat - whoever that might be at the time.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have gradually become ever more entitled - across the board - and when angry and unhappy will lash out looking for a scapegoat - whoever that might be at the time.
		
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For as long as it's possible to look back, societies have always looked for a scapegoat when angry and unhappy. This has nothing to do with entitlement, it's human/pack mentality. Find me any period in history when it hasn't happened and I'll be very impressed...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			For as long as it's possible to look back, societies have always looked for a scapegoat when angry and unhappy. This has nothing to do with entitlement, it's human/pack mentality. Find me any period in history when it hasn't happened and I'll be very impressed...
		
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I'm not saying that entitlement is at the root of *all *resentments and anger in society - but that it is a fairly recent development.

And it is my view that the rise in the feelings of entitlement in society has been at the same time as individuals become more concerned and interested in themselves, and less interested and caring about others - unless, that is, _the others _have something I want and do not have, and so my jealousy leads to resentment leads to anger leads to lashing out - looking...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not saying that entitlement is at the root of *all *resentments and anger in society - but that it is a fairly recent development.

And it is my view that the rise in the feelings of entitlement in society has been at the same time as individuals become more concerned and interested in themselves, and less interested and caring about others - unless, that is, _the others _have something I want and do not have, and so my jealousy leads to resentment leads to anger leads to lashing out - looking...
		
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As mentioned its never been different and becomes worse when encouraged.  It's more about 'Learned Behavior' than 'Entitlement' If a child gets their way by screaming and crying then they will scream and cry to get their way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			As mentioned its never been different and becomes worse when encouraged.  It's more about 'Learned Behavior' than 'Entitlement' If a child gets their way by screaming and crying then they will scream and cry to get their way.
		
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That may well be the case for some situations - but what is 'learned behaviour' when a parent gets angry when they can't get their child into the local good school...a school that they feel that they are entitled to get their child into because they live in the area - and getting their child into the school being the reason they bought their expensive house in the area - and that they can't because it is full.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may well be the case for some situations - but what is 'learned behaviour' when a parent gets angry when they can't get their child into the local good school...a school that they feel that they are entitled to get their child into because they live in the area - and getting their child into the school being the reason they bought their expensive house in the area - and that they can't because it is full.
		
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As a chair of governors I'd advise the appeals process if the parents think they have a good case.

Also before they move do some research on the catchment area. And the admissions criteria and how many applications they get for each place. Do they for example prioritise kids with siblings already in the school out of catchment over those without within catchment.

This can save a lot of heartache and stamp duty.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may well be the case for some situations - but what is 'learned behaviour' when a parent gets angry when they can't get their child into the local good school...a school that they feel that they are entitled to get their child into because they live in the area - and getting their child into the school being the reason they bought their expensive house in the area - and that they can't because it is full.
		
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That's very much learned behavior.  They have seen or read (learned) that buying an expensive house in the area will give them some advantage to get their children into the school they want, so that's what they try to do.


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## Val (Apr 5, 2017)

Benefits are a real pet hate of mine as I believe there is a majority who shouldn't even get them. There are those who won't/cant (delete as appropriate) work but spend their benefit money on drugs and booze. If I was taking drugs or tipped up for work with drink on me i'd lose my job, these types should be drug tested and if they fail their benefits should no longer be paid in cash, it should be food tokens and they should be made produce ID to use them to save them selling them on.

The town I was born and bred in is full of these people. Our local doctors surgery is frightening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's very much learned behavior.  They have seen or read (learned) that buying an expensive house in the area will give them some advantage to get their children into the school they want, so that's what they try to do.
		
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OK - I think we can reach a compromise agreed position here - I can accept that many, perhaps all, feelings of entitlement originate in learned behaviours...

And I propose that that must be the case - because the only feeling of entitlement we are born with is that of feeding at our mother's breast...and hence all other feelings of entitlement we have must originate and develop from our learning.

How's that...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I think we can reach a compromise agreed position here - I can accept that many, perhaps all, feelings of entitlement originate in learned behaviours...

And I propose that that must be the case - because the only feeling of entitlement we are born with is that of feeding at our mother's breast...and hence all other feelings of entitlement we have must originate and develop from our learning.

How's that...

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Have you studied Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs principles?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you studied Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs principles?
		
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As it happens I know a bit about it. It was groundbreaking in it's day, but had since been criticised as being too simplistic. In that peoples needs vary a lot by culture, circumstances and indeed sex.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2017)

wooosh...


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 5, 2017)

Val said:



			Benefits are a real pet hate of mine as I believe there is a majority who shouldn't even get them. There are those who won't/cant (delete as appropriate) work but spend their benefit money on drugs and booze. If I was taking drugs or tipped up for work with drink on me i'd lose my job, these types should be drug tested and if they fail their benefits should no longer be paid in cash, it should be food tokens and they should be made produce ID to use them to save them selling them on.

The town I was born and bred in is full of these people. Our local doctors surgery is frightening.
		
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Val:

And it is people with an attitude like yours that can cause a great deal of poverty and unneeded suffering. 

When I was ill here in America I lost my apartment, my savings, and ended up homeless on the streets, Obamacare wouldn't help, housing would not help because I did not fit the profiles of those they decided who was most in need. I was also the victim of a terrible crime that the Police would not help with. My dog and I nearly froze to death in a winter where temperatures reached -40F.

Your stereotyping is not only unhelpful but also harmful. I never resorted to drinks or drugs and I am not the exception who proves the rule. Many people in need are there because of catastrophic events in peoples lives and do not say "Well of course they should be catered for" - the truth is people with your attitude who are quite happy to broadly tar people with the same brush from the comfort of their living room are often the ones who actually do little to help or alleviate the situation.

As you are so quick to criticize and decide how people should be helped and treated why not go out and speak to the homeless and try to help someone who has the potential to rebuild their lives as I did. You could see me on the golf course this weekend and not know what I went through because someone gave me a chance and I capitalized on it. And do not think it could not happen to you...


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## ger147 (Apr 5, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Val:

And it is people with an attitude like yours that can cause a great deal of poverty and unneeded suffering. 

When I was ill here in America I lost my apartment, my savings, and ended up homeless on the streets, Obamacare wouldn't help, housing would not help because I did not fit the profiles of those they decided who was most in need. I was also the victim of a terrible crime that the Police would not help with. My dog and I nearly froze to death in a winter where temperatures reached -40F.

Your stereotyping is not only unhelpful but also harmful. I never resorted to drinks or drugs and I am not the exception who proves the rule. Many people in need are there because of catastrophic events in peoples lives and do not say "Well of course they should be catered for" - the truth is people with your attitude who are quite happy to broadly tar people with the same brush from the comfort of their living room are often the ones who actually do little to help or alleviate the situation.

As you are so quick to criticize and decide how people should be helped and treated why not go out and speak to the homeless and try to help someone who has the potential to rebuild their lives as I did. You could see me on the golf course this weekend and not know what I went through because someone gave me a chance and I capitalized on it. And do not think it could not happen to you...
		
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You've obviously never been to North Lanarkshire in Scotland.

And these people aren't homeless but are living a very comfortable life in many cases via the benefits they receive i.e. cars, holidays, busy social lives etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Val:

And it is people with an attitude like yours that can cause a great deal of poverty and unneeded suffering. 

When I was ill here in America I lost my apartment, my savings, and ended up homeless on the streets, Obamacare wouldn't help, housing would not help because I did not fit the profiles of those they decided who was most in need. I was also the victim of a terrible crime that the Police would not help with. My dog and I nearly froze to death in a winter where temperatures reached -40F.

Your stereotyping is not only unhelpful but also harmful. I never resorted to drinks or drugs and I am not the exception who proves the rule. Many people in need are there because of catastrophic events in peoples lives and do not say "Well of course they should be catered for" - the truth is people with your attitude who are quite happy to broadly tar people with the same brush from the comfort of their living room are often the ones who actually do little to help or alleviate the situation.

As you are so quick to criticize and decide how people should be helped and treated why not go out and speak to the homeless and try to help someone who has the potential to rebuild their lives as I did. You could see me on the golf course this weekend and not know what I went through because someone gave me a chance and I capitalized on it. And do not think it could not happen to you...
		
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Unless I'm mistaken Val is talking about the people who are homeless and struggling 

He is talking about the malingering percentage of scrounges who do nothing but live of welfare even though they are capable of getting out their to work , the type who spend all their benefits on booze and fags , the ones who see it as pay day 

There are ladies out there earning Â£30k plus whilst on benefits allow plus free housing all because they couldn't keep their legs crossed , or indeed get pregnant on purpose as it earns them money 

Val's attitude towards these scroungers is spot on


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 5, 2017)

ger147 said:



			You've obviously never been to North Lanarkshire in Scotland.

And these people aren't homeless but are living a very comfortable life in many cases via the benefits they receive i.e. cars, holidays, busy social lives etc.
		
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And what about the people who are not?


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless I'm mistaken Val is talking about the people who are homeless and struggling 

He is talking about the malingering percentage of scrounges who do nothing but live of welfare even though they are capable of getting out their to work , the type who spend all their benefits on booze and fags , the ones who see it as pay day 

There are ladies out there earning Â£30k plus whilst on benefits allow plus free housing all because they couldn't keep their legs crossed , or indeed get pregnant on purpose as it earns them money 

Val's attitude towards these scroungers is spot on
		
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In all of those "types" you mention there are stories behind them that cannot just be summed up in the way you and Val have. 

Addressing the stories and investing money in ways to help people off dependency and back on their feet is a far more productive way forward than the already limited ways forward for people in a situation where they have to be on benefits when many of the people they may try and get a job with have the attitude towards the underclass displayed by you and Val. 

You cannot have it both ways. You can either stigmatize people on benefits as worthless good for nothings or see their potential and urge those in power to redirect their resources to helping people maximize their potential so they can become productive members of society.


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## ger147 (Apr 5, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			And what about the people who are not?
		
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Val isn't talking about them and neither am I...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			In all of those "types" you mention there are stories behind them that cannot just be summed up in the way you and Val have. 

Addressing the stories and investing money in ways to help people off dependency and back on their feet is a far more productive way forward than the already limited ways forward for people in a situation where they have to be on benefits when many of the people they may try and get a job with have the attitude towards the underclass displayed by you and Val. 

You cannot have it both ways. You can either stigmatize people on benefits as worthless good for nothings or see their potential and urge those in power to redirect their resources to helping people maximize their potential so they can become productive members of society.
		
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You are missing the point.  There are the people who are genuinely on hard times or have real disabilities including mental health and there are those who prefer a life spending other peoples money or more to the point stopping tax being used to improve things like health and education.   We are not talking about the USA here but the UK.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 6, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			In all of those "types" you mention there are stories behind them that cannot just be summed up in the way you and Val have. 

Addressing the stories and investing money in ways to help people off dependency and back on their feet is a far more productive way forward than the already limited ways forward for people in a situation where they have to be on benefits when many of the people they may try and get a job with have the attitude towards the underclass displayed by you and Val. 

You cannot have it both ways. You can either stigmatize people on benefits as worthless good for nothings or see their potential and urge those in power to redirect their resources to helping people maximize their potential so they can become productive members of society.
		
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In the U.K. There are lots of scoungers. Granted not all. But my Facebook is full of single mums who get two holidays abroad a year. No amount of penny pinching and shrewd saving should leave that much money free when your only income is benefits. 

The sooner able bodied people are MADE to work for their benefits the better.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are missing the point.  There are the people who are genuinely on hard times or have real disabilities including mental health and there are those who prefer a life spending other peoples money or more to the point stopping tax being used to improve things like health and education.   We are not talking about the USA here but the UK.
		
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With respect you are missing the point. Looking down on the underclass, even those who "prefer a life spending other peoples money" is not going to change unless social services can get to the root cause of what causes people to be like this and addresses that with the goal of bringing them from that point to becoming productive members of society. I bet in the vast amount of cases where people who "prefer a life of spending other peoples money" - there are more underlying reasons as to why they feel that way. Address those and you might see people getting away from that lifestyle of choice.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 6, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			In the U.K. There are lots of scoungers. Granted not all. But my Facebook is full of single mums who get two holidays abroad a year. No amount of penny pinching and shrewd saving should leave that much money free when your only income is benefits. 

The sooner able bodied people are MADE to work for their benefits the better.
		
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All of course independently verified by your self I have no doubt...


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## Papas1982 (Apr 6, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			All of course independently verified by your self I have no doubt...
		
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As it's my Facebook list, yes. I know them all personally. So I know who works and who doesn't. 

There are some people who need benefits. And that's what the system is for. But far too many manipulate it. Give everyone who needs food stamps. It would save loads of money. 

In this Day and age. I can only accept that the most severely disabled, physically or mentally have a real reason not to work. And those on the street, obviously need help too. I've a daughter with cerebral palsy, so whilst I accept she may nit be a surgeon or a golfer (although I happen to know a very good one). She will have no excuse for not working. 

There are are enough flexible jobs now for all to get employment. It's those that choose not too as they feel they are too good for it, or would be no better off (common phrase) that wind me up. 

I had a single mum, stopped working til we were at school, then did part time and eventually full time as we got older. If you want nice things. Earn them, don't expect them to be handed to you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

Unfortunately Craig as much as I see what you're saying you've missed the point Val and others are making.

Whether you like it or not for all the genuine cases out there, we have complete and utter scum taking the p1ss out of the system (professional scroungers) and they need locking up.

They are a tiny proportion and they get the majority of media coverage and there are a lot urban myths about these types, ie, people getting Â£30K a year on benefits, the benefit cap is Â£400.00 per week, still a very large sum in some peoples opinion for doing nothing.

We hear there are enough jobs out there for everybody, if there was,  people far cleverer than me and others on here would of solved the problem by now.

There is abuse in every system and we already know there is far more abuse at the top than there is at the bottom, unfortunately the normal man in the street doesn't mix with the rich and powerful who abuse the system, we mix with the poor and unfortunate and there are a proportion of these who do not contribute in anyway to society and need sorting out.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2017)

We should have early morning raids on houses where benefits are being paid into!

If they have Sky/Virgin TV, rip it out: An ashtray full of ciggie butts and a bin full of tinnies, stop their benefits: A car, repossess it and sell it: Designer clothes, sell them and buy them some overalls: An iPhone, sell it and exchange it for a cheap Nokia: 

Everything that has been repossessed and sold they get back 20% of the proceeds because the raids have to be paid for.

Then, when we've finished in Liverpool move onto......  :smirk:


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's not.  Absolutely not.  He just tells me of the problems with being on a zero hours contract when you can claim 'in work' benefits if the hours you end up working one week qualify you - but the next week they don't.

I can hardly tell you how pleased he was to have this job - Â£7.05 an hour - *the rate didn't bother him *- what he was absolutely ecstatic about was that it was full time contracted hours.
		
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It shouldn't, Â£1222.00 (Â£282.00 p/wk) was Â£170.00 (Â£40.00 p/wk) in 1975.  My first job in 1975 before going into the forces was Â£15 p/wk for 6-days unloading 20 tonne lorries of bagged cement/plaster by hand in a builders merchants!!!

How many would do that now?

We have, and have created a lazy, I want/deserve and claim culture.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			It shouldn't, Â£1222.00 (Â£282.00 p/wk) was Â£170.00 (Â£40.00 p/wk) in 1975.  My first job in 1975 before going into the forces was Â£15 p/wk for 6-days unloading 20 tonne lorries of bagged cement/plaster by hand in a builders merchants!!!

How many would do that now?

We have, and have created a lazy, I want/deserve and claim culture.
		
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That culture goes top to bottom sadly Robin.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			That culture goes top to bottom sadly Robin.
		
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MP's expenses?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			MP's expenses?
		
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Exactly :thup:


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## Val (Apr 6, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			With respect you are missing the point. Looking down on the underclass, even those who "prefer a life spending other peoples money" is not going to change unless social services can get to the root cause of what causes people to be like this and addresses that with the goal of bringing them from that point to becoming productive members of society. I bet in the vast amount of cases where people who "prefer a life of spending other peoples money" - there are more underlying reasons as to why they feel that way. Address those and you might see people getting away from that lifestyle of choice.
		
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So, what is your solution to getting these people away from "that lifestyle of choice"?

I see it with my own eyes, I know many people who have chosen this path and they have no thought of following a different path. Investing money in these "types" won't make things better, these "types" work harder trying to beat the system and get more than they do trying to get a job, giving them more is what they want.

I feel for people who are down on luck and have fallen on hard times however these are not the target of my rant.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2017)

Val said:



			So, what is your solution to getting these people away from "that lifestyle of choice"?

I see it with my own eyes, I know many people who have chosen this path and they have no thought of following a different path. Investing money in these "types" won't make things better, these "types" work harder trying to beat the system and get more than they do trying to get a job, giving them more is what they want.

I feel for people who are down on luck and have fallen on hard times however these are not the target of my rant.
		
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I am sure people underestimate the size of this issue.  You can go anywhere in the UK and witness these people swinging the lead.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I am sure people underestimate the size of this issue.  You can go anywhere in the UK and witness these people swinging the lead.
		
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You need to clarify just who your comments are aimed at,
6003 people appeared in court last year charged with benefit fraud, or once again are you accusing every person on benefits?
Government figures show less than 1% of people on benefits are committing fraud.
I take it every person working is completely honest.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			You need to clarify just who your comments are aimed at,
6003 people appeared in court last year charged with benefit fraud, or once again are you accusing every person on benefits?
Government figures show less than 1% of people on benefits are committing fraud.
I take it every person working is completely honest.
		
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The issue is not just people committing official fraud, it's people that are being supplied with a lifestyle they dont deserve.  You seem to miss the point that the Benefits system is encouraging so many people to live a life where they have no intention of working, they are not committing fraud due to the system allowing them to get away with it.  OK, you make the point that some evade tax and there is corruption at high levels in society but that is not the issue, the issue is that it's all wrong and needs addressing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The issue is not just people committing official fraud, it's people that are being supplied with a lifestyle they dont deserve.  You seem to miss the point that the Benefits system is encouraging so many people to live a life where they have no intention of working, they are not committing fraud due to the system allowing them to get away with it.  OK, you make the point that some evade tax and there is corruption at high levels in society but that is not the issue, the issue is that it's all wrong and needs addressing.
		
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But your posts on the whole are bias towards the people on Benefits, as you say all fraud needs addressing not just the ones the media highlight and are the easiest to attack.

I'm sure like me you know plenty of working people willing to do jobs on the side for cash in hand, I've done them and I'm sure plenty others have, aren't we just as bad?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			But your posts on the whole are bias towards the people on Benefits, as you say all fraud needs addressing not just the ones the media highlight and are the easiest to attack.

I'm sure like me you know plenty of working people willing to do jobs on the side for cash in hand, I've done them and I'm sure plenty others have, aren't we just as bad?
		
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This thread is about Benefit culture, that's why I am posting about it. If it was about Tax evasion I would also post about that.  Of course I am aware of people who take cash in hand to avoid tax although I have never done this myself but that doesn't change my view that the real problem with benefits is much larger and serious than the unemployment figures portray.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			This thread is about Benefit culture, that's why I am posting about it. If it was about Tax evasion I would also post about that.  Of course I am aware of people who take cash in hand to avoid tax although I have never done this myself but that doesn't change my view that the real problem with benefits is much larger and serious than the unemployment figures portray.
		
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I guess we'll always disagree then, that's the beauty at times of this forum, different perspectives from different experiences. :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I guess we'll always disagree then, that's the beauty at times of this forum, different perspectives from different experiences. :thup:
		
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I can agree on that :thup:


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## Raesy92 (Apr 6, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			In the U.K. There are lots of scoungers. Granted not all. But my Facebook is full of single mums who get two holidays abroad a year. No amount of penny pinching and shrewd saving should leave that much money free when your only income is benefits. 

The sooner able bodied people are MADE to work for their benefits the better.
		
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Single mums with two holidays abroad a year on benefits? I seriously doubt this claim. Mainly because my daughters mother was a single mum and when not working (although mostly working part-time) there is no way she would have been able to afford going abroad twice a year. That is with her receiving benefits and me giving money to help pay for my daughter.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			This has gone way of track. The question is should fit and able bodied people on benefits be made to earn them. The thread is not about immigration, tax dodging or anything else along those lines.
		
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Isn't guaranteeing work for anyone able to work, which I am assuming needs to happen to provide jobs for all these millions of benefit scroungers who are all bleeding the system dry (Â©Daily Mail) one of the key tenets of communism?

Not sure that would go down well in the average golf clubhouse.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2017)

I'm actually on holiday myself by the pool. And after a quick straw poll, no one here has paid for their 2 week break on Richard Bransons private island using benefit payments.

I just thought it was fair to point out that after some compelling evidence for one side of the argument, there are actually some people out there who go on 2 holidays a year not using job seakers allowance to pay for them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 6, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Isn't guaranteeing work for anyone able to work, which I am assuming needs to happen to provide jobs for all these millions of benefit scroungers who are all bleeding the system dry (Â©Daily Mail) one of the key tenets of communism?

Not sure that would go down well in the average golf clubhouse.
		
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You can call it anything you like. Personally, I would call it 'contributing to the system instead of expecting something for nothing'

I can't see a problem with litter picking, graffiti scrubbing, assisting the elderly, filling potholes in the road etc etc. I'm sure councils would love to do all those things to enhance our environment but don't have the money to do so yet we have a huge untapped resource pool sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle all day.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			You can call it anything you like. Personally, I would call it 'contributing to the system instead of expecting something for nothing'

I can't see a problem with litter picking, graffiti scrubbing, assisting the elderly, filling potholes in the road etc etc. I'm sure councils would love to do all those things to enhance our environment but don't have the money to do so yet we have a huge untapped resource pool sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle all day.
		
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So Karl Marx was onto something after all. Who knew?


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm actually on holiday myself by the pool. And after a quick straw poll, no one here has paid for their 2 week break on Richard Bransons private island using benefit payments.

I just thought it was fair to point out that after some compelling evidence for one side of the argument, there are actually some people out there who go on 2 holidays a year not using job seakers allowance to pay for them.
		
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If its anecdotal evidence we're considering I have a cousin who's just back from his annual Oct to Feb Spanish holiday. He hasn't worked for at least 10 years. I have another cousin, currently on a very long holiday in HM Prisons, who has never worked since leaving school 15-20 years ago. He has a holiday cottage in the Yorkshire Dales and a Range Rover, and he bought his mum a brand new Range Rover too. 2 of his brothers have never worked. 

Their father never worked, ever. And although their grand parents worked till their late 40's, they never worked after that but still did the trip to Lourdes and then a Spanish holiday - their scam was brilliant. Get a council house, then separate and get a second council house. Get back together but rent the first council house out, but remember to swap out the dodgy gas meter that gets swapped out every 2 months.

The areas that Val alludes to very much exist. It isn't the benefits that are the issue, and I agree they should go up not down, its the very dodgy dealings and black market jobs that exist... I could give you reams of stories, all of which are supported by things like the 2x Spanish holidays and the brand new Range Rovers.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2017)

I don't suppose too many have robbed 'the benefits system' of 14M and been allowed to walk..

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-reaching-deal-with-prosecutors-a3506696.html

Another hero for your gallery?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If its anecdotal evidence we're considering I have a cousin who's just back from his annual Oct to Feb Spanish holiday. He hasn't worked for at least 10 years. I have another cousin, currently on a very long holiday in HM Prisons, who has never worked since leaving school 15-20 years ago. He has a holiday cottage in the Yorkshire Dales and a Range Rover, and he bought his mum a brand new Range Rover too. 2 of his brothers have never worked. 

Their father never worked, ever. And although their grand parents worked till their late 40's, they never worked after that but still did the trip to Lourdes and then a Spanish holiday - their scam was brilliant. Get a council house, then separate and get a second council house. Get back together but rent the first council house out, but remember to swap out the dodgy gas meter that gets swapped out every 2 months.

The areas that Val alludes to very much exist. It isn't the benefits that are the issue, and I agree they should go up not down, its the very dodgy dealings and black market jobs that exist... I could give you reams of stories, all of which are supported by things like the 2x Spanish holidays and the brand new Range Rovers.
		
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To be fair though Bri, they sound more like career criminals, problem is they get lumped in with the genuine law abiding unemployed and are seen as no better or worse than the other 3 Million.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			Then, when we've finished in Liverpool move onto......  :smirk:
		
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And when we've finished in Liverpool, we'll move onto company directors who go bust, who can leave all sorts in their wake. :smirk:


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## Val (Apr 6, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Single mums with two holidays abroad a year on benefits? I seriously doubt this claim. Mainly because my daughters mother was a single mum and when not working (although mostly working part-time) there is no way she would have been able to afford going abroad twice a year. That is with her receiving benefits and me giving money to help pay for my daughter.
		
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Doubt it all you like, it happens. Many of these  "single" mothers have boyfriends or live in partners who go undeclared to the authorities because declaring them will cut their benefits.


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## Raesy92 (Apr 6, 2017)

Val said:



			Doubt it all you like, it happens. Many of these  "single" mothers have boyfriends or live in partners who go undeclared to the authorities because declaring them will cut their benefits.
		
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So it's probably not benefits that are paying for the holiday then, but the partner.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 6, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Single mums with two holidays abroad a year on benefits? I seriously doubt this claim. Mainly because my daughters mother was a single mum and when not working (although mostly working part-time) there is no way she would have been able to afford going abroad twice a year. That is with her receiving benefits and me giving money to help pay for my daughter.
		
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Doubt away. I'm sure your daughter was honest and that's why she couldn't afford it. 

These single mums have new fellas who live with them, but don't declare it. Hence extra income. Like I said, there are lots that do it properly and they deserve help. But far too many manipulate it. And the girls I refer to are single mums as far as claims go.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 6, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			So it's probably not benefits that are paying for the holiday then, but the partner.
		
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Its all the same. The benefits have paid rent that the couple should pay. It all counts.


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## Val (Apr 6, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			So it's probably not benefits that are paying for the holiday then, but the partner.
		
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Not necessarily, they are getting benefits they are not entitled to in turn having disposable cash to spend elsewhere


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 7, 2017)

Val:

Surely they do not have to declare their partners income unless they were married?


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## ger147 (Apr 7, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Val:

Surely they do not have to declare their partners income unless they were married?
		
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If they co-habit then both incomes must be declared when benefit claims are being made. Many do not, therefore cheating the system.


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## Val (Apr 7, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Val:

Surely they do not have to declare their partners income unless they were married?
		
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As Gerry says, if they co-habit they must declare income. It's household income for household benefits. Is it right someone lives rent free as a single parent when her high flying new boyfriend on Â£100k+ a year lives with her permanently?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2017)

Well that's one way of cutting down on fraudulent claims. Very classy Tories, very classy....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/women-now-prove-theyve-been-10170629


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well that's one way of cutting down on fraudulent claims. Very classy Tories, very classy....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/women-now-prove-theyve-been-10170629

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Calm down before you hurt yourself. Whilst I agree its totally wrong to expect a rape to fill in an 8 page doc, there has to be some sort of check that a claimant is making a valid claim. Surely all they should be expected to provide is a crime/conviction number.

Can you just imagine mum saying, "sorry I now have a 4th/5th/6th child but I was raped."... "oh, how awful. Yes we'll pay you more money." Kerching!

There has to be a check, but an 8 page (intrusive) document is ridiculous.


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