# Curing the yips!



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

Interesting article in the latest edition of Golf Monthly on this subject. It seems that a significant percentage of golfers do suffer to some extent from the yips and there are two types, the acceleration yips and the rotational yips. Think I suffered from both! It is not normally a psychological condition. Previous advice has generally been to find another way of putting, such as using broomhandle or belly putters, or a different grip such as left hand below right or the claw grip, but the first two are being outlawed in the next version of the rules. However, the article claims that the yips can be cured by minor changes in technique. I will give this a try and report back.


----------



## woody69 (Nov 28, 2014)

I thought in amateur golf, the "yips" was just an excuse for someone who was a poor putter, like me!


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I thought in amateur golf, the "yips" was just an excuse for someone who was a poor putter, like me!
		
Click to expand...

I was a reasonably good putter before I developed the yips in my mid 50's. At their worst I was taking 4 or 5 putts on some greens and could miss 6" putts. Changing to the claw grip got my putting back to its previous standard, if not a bit better.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			I was a reasonably good putter before I developed the yips in my mid 50's. At their worst I was taking 4 or 5 putts on some greens and could miss 6" putts. Changing to the claw grip got my putting back to its previous standard, if not a bit better. 

Click to expand...

So why are you even contemplating going back to the old style and risking re-introducing them! 

Completely daft idea imo!


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 28, 2014)

So when I responded to one of your many previous posts on the subject saying that the yips was just poor technique, was I infact right?


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So why are you even contemplating going back to the old style and risking re-introducing them! 

Completely daft idea imo!

Click to expand...

The claw grip can be a bit awkward for very long putts and I haven't yet found a way of using it for chipping, which is another problem area for me. 

P.S. I also hate letting things beat me! :mmm:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I thought in amateur golf, the "yips" was just an excuse for someone who was a poor putter, like me!
		
Click to expand...

Thats about right - poor technique


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So when I responded to one of your many previous posts on the subject saying that the yips was just poor technique, was I in fact right?
		
Click to expand...

No, not really. You know that you have the yips when you can make a smooth practice putting stroke, but when you put a ball in the way all you can manage is a horrible jerky snatch at it! It's as though the putter goes off in your hands!


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			The claw grip can be a bit awkward for very long putts and I haven't yet found a way of using it for chipping, which is another problem area for me. 

P.S. I also hate letting things beat me! :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me you are more likely to get them back than find a 'proper' solution. Stay well away from anything that could trigger their return would be my advice!


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me you are more likely to get them back than find a 'proper' solution. Stay well away from anything that could trigger their return would be my advice!
		
Click to expand...

But at worst I could go back to using the claw grip. I would put in a fair amount of practice before trying it out during a round anyway!


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			It is not normally a psychological condition.
		
Click to expand...

It has to be psychological, what else can cause it?


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			It has to be psychological, what else can cause it?
		
Click to expand...

Have you read the GM article yet Chris?


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			It has to be psychological, what else can cause it?
		
Click to expand...

Bad technique


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Bad technique 

Click to expand...

I agree, so your brain knows that your technique is poor and it doesn't want you to complete the task as it knows you won't get the right result, it makes you pull out of the shot?


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Bad technique 

Click to expand...

The only change I had to make to cure my yips was adopting the claw grip. Stance, posture, head position and ball position stayed exactly the same!


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			Have you read the GM article yet Chris? 

Click to expand...

I certainly have and it appears very contradictory. The only thing that makes us perform tasks is the brain. When people talk about muscle memory it's nonsense, muscles have no way of memorising afaik it's all down to the brain and poor technique. 

So, as I understand it, if your brain realises that the task you've set it can't be completed by the method you're using it will try and abort the swing or change it - if what I'm saying is correct then it is mainly psychological surely


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			The only change I had to make to cure my yips was adopting the claw grip. Stance, posture, head position and ball position stayed exactly the same!
		
Click to expand...

But a change that your brain knew was more likely to achieve the result


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			The only change I had to make to cure my yips was *a radical change to my technique*

Click to expand...

Fixed


----------



## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			The only change I had to make to cure my yips was adopting the claw grip. Stance, posture, head position and ball position stayed exactly the same!
		
Click to expand...

you haven't cured them; you have simply neutralised their impact in your situation.

your bodies reaction to the relevant situation involved the right hand - so you have isolated that.

there is also a significant crossover between bad habits that sneek in due to poor technique and similar uncontrolled actions generated by the body in a more fundamental condition (we have come to know as the yips).

when, as a single figure golfer, you find yourself standing over a short chip and are completely unable to take the club away from the ball for fear of what's going to happen next you have the yips........arguably you can never cure it, only find ways to control it.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

duncan mackie said:



			you haven't cured them; you have simply neutralised their impact in your situation.

your bodies reaction to the relevant situation involved the right hand - so you have isolated that.

there is also a significant crossover between bad habits that sneek in due to poor technique and similar uncontrolled actions generated by the body in a more fundamental condition (we have come to know as the yips).

when, as a single figure golfer, you find yourself standing over a short chip and are completely unable to take the club away from the ball for fear of what's going to happen next you have the yips........arguably you can never cure it, only find ways to control it.
		
Click to expand...

But I still maintain that the only thing stopping the take away is your brain!


----------



## delc (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I certainly have and it appears very contradictory. The only thing that makes us perform tasks is the brain. When people talk about muscle memory it's nonsense, muscles have no way of memorising afaik it's all down to the brain and poor technique. 

So, as I understand it, if your brain realises that the task you've set it can't be completed by the method you're using it will try and abort the swing or change it - if what I'm saying is correct then it is mainly psychological surely
		
Click to expand...

Have you read the Mayo Clinic report on the yips? They suggest that it's a condition called Focal Distonia, which is the neurological breakdown of the pathways that control a well learned and automatic skill, carried out by the unconscious mind. The problems come when the neurological pathway fails and the conscious mind tries to control this automatic learned skill. This can affect musicians as well as golfers. This is why the yips don't affect beginners, however bad their technique is.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			Have you read the Mayo Clinic report on the yips? They suggest that it's a condition called Focal Distonia, which is the neurological breakdown of the pathways that control a well learned and automatic skill, carried out by the unconscious mind. The problems come when the neurological pathway fails and the conscious mind tries to control this automatic learned skill. This can affect musicians as well as golfers. This is why the yips don't affect beginners, however bad their technique is.
		
Click to expand...

So it is all in the brain?


----------



## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			But I still maintain that the only thing stopping the take away is your brain!
		
Click to expand...

I thought I was agreeing?

I usually give the following example to illustrate the impact fear can have on our physical actions - it's blindingly obvious.

Take a 6" square beam and place it across a couple of bricks - walk along it, jump up and down on it etc

Take same beam and place it at 30' - many will be completely unable to even lift one foot of it let alone jump 1" high

The physical action/activity is exactly the same; the issue becomes the minds perception of the consequences of 'failure' - however silly this might appear to others. We all know it doesn't really matter if you miss the putt/fat the chip/put it in the bunker etc etc

There may be physiological causes for some (as referenced) but that really doesn't matter as we are generally dealing with the symptoms!


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

duncan mackie said:



			I thought I was agreeing?

I usually give the following example to illustrate the impact fear can have on our physical actions - it's blindingly obvious.

Take a 6" square beam and place it across a couple of bricks - walk along it, jump up and down on it etc

Take same beam and place it at 30' - many will be completely unable to even lift one foot of it let alone jump 1" high

The physical action/activity is exactly the same; the issue becomes the minds perception of the consequences of 'failure' - however silly this might appear to others. We all know it doesn't really matter if you miss the putt/fat the chip/put it in the bunker etc etc

There may be physiological causes for some (as referenced) but that really doesn't matter as we are generally dealing with the symptoms!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Duncan, I wrote that badly. Yes I knew you were agreeing as is Del but I guess he won't say so!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2014)

So it's old age that means you should get your HC increased 

You blame poor putting on some "condition"

You want bigger holes so that you don't miss as much 

It all appears to be excuses for not being able to score as well you believe you should ?

If you played lawn Bowles they have a massive trench behind - you should be able to hit that. 

Why don't you just go out and just hit the ball - walk then hit it again and just chat to yoir FP and enjoy yourself.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don't you just go out and just hit the ball - walk then hit it again and just chat to yoir FP and enjoy yourself.
		
Click to expand...

You'll find out next Sunday !! :whoo:


----------



## Break90 (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			Have you read the Mayo Clinic report on the yips? They suggest that it's a condition called Focal Distonia, which is the neurological breakdown of the pathways that control a well learned and automatic skill, carried out by the unconscious mind. The problems come when the neurological pathway fails and the conscious mind tries to control this automatic learned skill. *This can affect musicians *as well as golfers. This is why the yips don't affect beginners, however bad their technique is.
		
Click to expand...

like Gladys Knight and the yips??

i'll get me coat


----------



## chrisd (Nov 28, 2014)

Break90 said:



			like Gladys Knight and the yips??

i'll get me coat

Click to expand...

Or the Four Stops - share a cab?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2014)

I have to say in my opinion, it is bad technique aligned to a mental issue. Sorry but dress it any way you like that's what it come down to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			You'll find out next Sunday !! :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Looking forward to it - should be a great two days of golf and banter :thup:


----------



## Break90 (Nov 28, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Or the Four Stops - share a cab?
		
Click to expand...

Ravi Shankar? That's it I'm off


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 28, 2014)

delc said:



			Have you read the Mayo Clinic report on the yips? They suggest that it's a condition called Focal Distonia, which is the neurological breakdown of the pathways that control a well learned and automatic skill, carried out by the unconscious mind. The problems come when the neurological pathway fails and the conscious mind tries to control this automatic learned skill. This can affect musicians as well as golfers. This is why the yips don't affect beginners, however bad their technique is.
		
Click to expand...

It's just occurred to me that the reason you got the yips is because you're obsessed by them. I bet you couldn't believe your luck when the mag had an article on it, it gave you a chance to post more obsessive nonsense


----------



## richart (Nov 29, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Looking forward to it - should be a great two days of golf and banter :thup:
		
Click to expand...

:mmm: I will wait to see what the draw on Monday looks like.


----------



## delc (Nov 29, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's just occurred to me that the reason you got the yips is because you're obsessed by them. I bet you couldn't believe your luck when the mag had an article on it, it gave you a chance to post more obsessive nonsense
		
Click to expand...

I'm not in the least bit obsessed with the yips. I'd much rather have never had them! However if you like playing golf and develop them, you have to find a way round them if you wish to continue playing at a reasonable level. Whether they are caused by a lack of confidence, Focal Dystonia, poor technique, or the man in the moon, it would be nice to understand and find a cure for them, as they do affect quite a few middle-aged, long term golfers.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 29, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm not in the least bit obsessed with the yips. I'd much rather have never had them! However if you like playing golf and develop them, you have to find a way round them if you wish to continue playing at a reasonable level. Whether they are caused by a lack of confidence, Focal Dystonia, poor technique, or the man in the moon, it would be nice to understand and find a cure for them, as they do affect quite a few middle-aged, long term golfers. 

Click to expand...

Do they, because I know a lot of golfers of the type you describe, none have the yips, in fact, I've never met anyone with them. I know bad putters, but putting badly isn't the yips.


----------



## Ethan (Nov 29, 2014)

There is probably a spectrum, with some, probably few, who have a tic-like twitch to those whose technique is poor but who scraped by before their technique found them out. Claw grips and suchlike may treat either version of the malady.


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

In answer to HawkeyeMS I have come across quite a few senior golfers with the yips. One right-handed player at my former club had them so badly that he ended up putting left handed, because that was the only way he could do it.  It's not shaking hands BTW, because I played in a match against a guy who was suffering from Parkinson's disease: He had shaking hands but could still putt quite well!

I know that my problem is related to my right arm or hand. Earlier this year I watched the delectable Cheyenne Woods practising her putting on the practice green at the Buckinghamshire course in Denham. She normally putts left hand below right, but she was practising four footers just using her right hand. She still holed about 40 out of 40 putts, which was seriously impressive. I went back and tried the same exercise on our practice green and the putts went everywhere *except* into the hole! Yet I found that I could putt quite well gripping with only my left hand.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2014)

As I posted earlier, you don't currently have the Yips, so you would be completely daft to go back to a style that encouraged their return. 

For the long ones, where Claw can indeed be a bit awkward, why not try Left below Right. Yipiness is normally a 'close to the hole' condition - more delicate touch; higher success expectation - so generally not an issue for longer putts. 

But definitely forget anything that might encourage the Yips to return, as it's quite possible that even going back to Claw grip might not solve it!


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

I tried putting left hand below right after I first developed the yips. It was good for short putts, but I found it very hard to get any feel for distance. Also it's a different grip to what I use for chipping, which is a related skill. One of my fellow seniors at my club both chips and putts left hand below right after getting the yips, but he still looks rather twitchy. 

I have continued to practice conventional style putting on the practice green as well as claw grip, and it hasn't affected the latter at all. Playing under pressure on the course I am most likely to yip very short and very long putts using the conventional grip. I'm not bad at middle range putts with it.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



			I tried putting left hand below right after I first developed the yips. It was good for short putts, but I found it very hard to get any feel for distance. Also it's a different grip to what I use for chipping, which is a related skill. One of my fellow seniors at my club both chips and putts left hand below right after getting the yips, but he still looks rather twitchy. 

I have continued to practice conventional style putting on the practice green as well as claw grip, and it hasn't affected the latter at all. Playing under pressure on the course I am most likely to yip very short and very long putts using the conventional grip. I'm not bad at middle range putts with it. 

Click to expand...

Seems more and more like you don't actually have a problem with the Yips at all! 

And maybe never did! 

So I'm out!


----------



## CMAC (Nov 30, 2014)

heres a crazy idea I've just adopted with positive results- I grip the putter with my normal club grip with left hand i.e in the fingers as opposed to most putter grips which can be in the palms- it does make the putter nose sit up ALA Seve but I think he was an ok putter


I use that grip for 13 other clubs so why not the putter- instantly comfortable is one benefit


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems more and more like you don't actually have a problem with the Yips at all! 

And maybe never did! 

So I'm out!
		
Click to expand...

You obviously didn't see the 7 I once had on a par-3 hole! Tee shot to about 20 feet, and then 6 putts, 5 of them within 3 feet of the hole!


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



			In answer to HawkeyeMS I have come across quite a few senior golfers with the yips. One right-handed player at my former club had them so badly that he ended up putting left handed, because that was the only way he could do it.  It's not shaking hands BTW, because I played in a match against a guy who was suffering from Parkinson's disease: He had shaking hands but could still putt quite well!

I know that my problem is related to my right arm or hand. Earlier this year I watched the delectable Cheyenne Woods practising her putting on the practice green at the Buckinghamshire course in Denham. She normally putts left hand below right, but she was practising four footers just using her right hand. She still holed about 40 out of 40 putts, which was seriously impressive. I went back and tried the same exercise on our practice green and the putts went everywhere *except* into the hole! Yet I found that I could putt quite well gripping with only my left hand. 

Click to expand...

Del, I remember from a previous post that you had something like a dozen players at you club who apparently had the yips. That to me is way to many people for one person to know who have the yips, let alone all at the same club. Your obsession with them is in my opinion leading you to diagnose bad putting as the yips. You may think you aren't obsessed, but your posts on here suggest otherwise.

Foxholer is right, changing your putting grip after reading an article about curing the yips when you don't have the yips is a daft idea.


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Del, I remember from a previous post that you had something like a dozen players at you club who apparently had the yips. That to me is way to many people for one person to know who have the yips, let alone all at the same club. Your obsession with them is in my opinion leading you to diagnose bad putting as the yips. You may think you aren't obsessed, but your posts on here suggest otherwise.

Foxholer is right, changing your putting grip after reading an article about curing the yips when you don't have the yips is a daft idea.
		
Click to expand...

Please bear in mind that many of my friends are seniors, most of whom have played golf for a long time. The Mayo Clinic report estimated that about 40% of golfers will develop the yips if they play for long enough, and I believe the SAM putting labs have found a similar percentage of golfers who have a potential yip in their putting stroke that (usually) hasn't yet become obvious in their actual putting!

I would prefer not to use the claw grip, but it does guarantee that I can make a smooth putting stroke under pressure. In fact when I changed to it, it was like the difference between night and day!


----------



## srixon 1 (Nov 30, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me you are more likely to get them back than find a 'proper' solution. Stay well away from anything that could trigger their return would be my advice!
		
Click to expand...

Like continually harping on about them. If you think about them all the time then they will never go away.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 30, 2014)

Is this on a 6 monthly cycle ?

This must be the 4 time now we have had a thread on the "yips"

And the conclusion is the same - it's an excuse for poor technique


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the conclusion is the same - it's an excuse for poor technique
		
Click to expand...

Special 'guest return' from me.....

It's more than simply 'poor technique'! Otherwise, guys like Bernhardt Langer, a seriously obsessive type, would have found a simple way round them - that doesn't involve a broomstick! Many of the greats - Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Nelson, Watson - had significant periods fighting them. So there's obviously more to it than just technique! That said, finding a technique that avoids - as opposed to overcomes - them is all that needs to happen.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



			Please bear in mind that many of my friends are seniors, most of whom have played golf for a long time. The Mayo Clinic report estimated that about 40% of golfers will develop the yips if they play for long enough, and I believe the SAM putting labs have found a similar percentage of golfers who have a potential yip in their putting stroke that (usually) hasn't yet become obvious in their actual putting!

I would prefer not to use the claw grip, but it does guarantee that I can make a smooth putting stroke under pressure. In fact when I changed to it, it was like the difference between night and day!
		
Click to expand...

You aren't the only golfer with senior golfer friends, I am not a senior but play regularly with senior golfers, there are also many many senior golfers on here. I'd hazard a guess that you are are in a very very small group of people (possibly a group of one) who know anyone with the actual yips, let alone more than 5.

What the hell is a "potential yip"?


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You aren't the only golfer with senior golfer friends, I am not a senior but play regularly with senior golfers, there are also many many senior golfers on here. I'd hazard a guess that you are are in a very very small group of people (possibly a group of one) who know anyone with the actual yips, let alone more than 5.

What the hell is a "potential yip"?
		
Click to expand...

It's not just seniors, it's seniors who have played golf for a long time. People who take up golf in their 40's and 50's will probably die or give up golf before they develop the yips. It's generally pros and keen long term amateurs who succumb. The yips were career ending for several big name pros, including Ben Hogan who could still play fantastic tee-to-green golf but could no longer putt. Bernhardt Langer had the yips by the age of 21 and beat them by a series of unusual putting methods ending up with a broom handle style. Sam Snead tried Croquet style putting (now banned) and then side saddle putting to stay competitive. A potential yip is a jerky putting stroke that can be detected by the sophisticated equipment in putting labs, but not yet obvious to the player. When you get the full blown yips, it's as though the club goes off in your hands, or like putting with a live snake! :mmm:


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



			It's not just seniors, it's seniors who have played golf for a long time. People who take up golf in their 40's and 50's will probably die or give up golf before they develop the yips. It's generally pros and keen long term amateurs who succumb. The yips were career ending for several big name pros, including Ben Hogan who could still play fantastic tee-to-green golf but could no longer putt. Bernhardt Langer had the yips by the age of 21 and beat them by a series of unusual putting methods ending up with a broom handle style. Sam Snead tried Croquet style putting (now banned) and then side saddle putting to stay competitive. A potential yip is a jerky putting stroke that can be detected by the sophisticated equipment in putting labs, but not yet obvious to the player. When you get the full blown yips, it's as though the club goes off in your hands, or like putting with a live snake! :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, you're obsessed


----------



## chrisd (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



			When you get the full blown yips, it's as though the club goes off in your hands, or like putting with a live snake! :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

On the rare occasion it's "gone off in my hands" is always been a swing fault, generally I've taken it further back than I've intended and walloped it too hard - that is a swing fault, so,  if a swing fault caused by the brain trying to adjust a poor swing is "the yips" then I guess we're really agreeing that the yips is a real phenomenon, but known usually by it's other name " a bad swing"


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 30, 2014)

chrisd said:



			On the rare occasion it's "gone off in my hands" is always been a swing fault, generally I've taken it further back than I've intended and walloped it too hard - that is a swing fault, so,  if a swing fault caused by the brain trying to adjust a poor swing is "the yips" then I *guess we're really agreeing that the yips is a real phenomenon, but known usually by it's other name " a bad swing"*

Click to expand...

Summed up nicely :thup:


----------



## Ethan (Nov 30, 2014)

I think there are several things being mixed in here. There are some people who develop almost a phobia of putting where they can't pull the trigger or twitch at it and send a 3 footer 12 feet past. I reckon that is pretty rare, though. 

What is probably more common is people who just get worse at putting as they get older. Maybe they weren't great to start, but as they get older, they ir eyesight gets worse, including depth perception, they get some essential tremor, their grip gets affected by some arthritis or tendonitis and all of these add up to them missing a lot of putts. 

In fact, I have just found a scientific reference which described the yips as on a continuum (spectrum) between focal dystonia and choking. That sounds sensible and likely. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12477375

As for the Mayo Clinic, it is a sign of all that ails the US healthcare system if people are going to an international tertiary referral centre because of bad putting. Of course, the middle aged yippy golfer probably has some money to spend, and the US healthcare system is a business first.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2014)

I have to agree with the majority and say you don't have the yips and probably never have. You are just a very poor putter. I know around 40 senior golfers (50+) at my club that I play with on a regular basis and none of them are yippers. Some aren't very good, mostly from very short range and none *ever* practice. I've seen four and five putts and not one has ever said they have the yips.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 30, 2014)

The 'yips' are the result of a lack of confidence in ones ability.
IMO


----------



## palindromicbob (Nov 30, 2014)

A thread triggered by the magazine this forum is an extension for, and it is rapidly descending into a argument amongst the usual culprits. 


Slowly I've grown to hate this place yet for some reason I keep floating back.  Maybe it's time for me to cut the supply. 

now, where is the delete profile button.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			The 'yips' are the result of a lack of confidence in ones ability.
IMO
		
Click to expand...

That's a very broad description though isn't it Bob?

Was it Langer's lack of confidence that caused his? And at what level? Lack of confidence in his overall game? His putting in general? Or (just) his short putting? From memory, it was just his short-ish putts

With 2 of the guys I've known who have had yips, it has been restricted to just short puts, even 15" ones - and it was scary! One of the guys 'cured' it by putting left-handed, originally just for short ones, carrying both a left and a right-handed putter, but eventually went to left-handed for everything.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 30, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			A thread triggered by the magazine this forum is an extension for, and it is rapidly descending into a argument amongst the usual culprits. 


Slowly I've grown to hate this place yet for some reason I keep floating back.  Maybe it's time for me to cut the supply. 

now, where is the delete profile button.
		
Click to expand...

We would all press that button if every thread was nicey nicey and everyone agreeing with everyone!


----------



## richart (Nov 30, 2014)

Haven't read all the posts, but are forumers saying that putting yips do not exist ? Have a word with Langer. He has had them more than once. Nothing to do with technique. I seem to remember he changed to his arm clamp style after five putting from about three feet.

I know there are a few Pro' s that have had chipping yips, and that has nothing to do with a bad technique. Golf is not the only sport where you can get the yips. Cricketers especially bowlers can get them. Keith Medlycott had to give up the game, because he couldn't release the ball. Eric Bristow got them in darts, and their was a Russian tennis player that could throw the ball up to serve.

I agree that a lot of amateurs are just bad putters, and don't have the yips, but they are real.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 30, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's a very broad description though isn't it Bob?

Was it Langer's lack of confidence that caused his? And at what level? Lack of confidence in his overall game? His putting in general? Or (just) his short putting? From memory, it was just his short-ish putts

With 2 of the guys I've known who have had yips, it has been restricted to just short puts, even 15" ones - and it was scary! One of the guys 'cured' it by putting left-handed, originally just for short ones, carrying both a left and a right-handed putter, but eventually went to left-handed for everything.
		
Click to expand...

I had a real problem for a while missing very short putts, and it mean from a foot even, I guess for a while I thought of it as the yips but after a while I realised that I was turning the right hand over as I putted and I often swayed towards the cup. I worked hard on correcting the faults as I began to stand over putts and just know I was going to miss and usually did.

The changes of technique helped me make those putts much more frequently and my confidence grew and my mental attitude from negative became positive, so, I'm convinced that the yips are just the fear of failure and caused by a bad technique  and so is purely caused in the mind


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Nov 30, 2014)

Now now Bob no need for that, .......breathe

Returning to the thread , it seems clear that the (proper) yips is an actual psychological condition that stops you from pulling the trigger or which causes you to hit the ball wildly, 
It's causes are probably bad technique, leading to a massive lack of confidence, leading to an actual psychological issue.

Kevin Na had the driving yips a few years ago.pretty well documented on here at the time.

Now I have no idea if Del has had the proper yips or he is just a rubbish putter.
Most of us havnt met him or played with him and so it is wrong for us to comment on that.

He does however seem to have a fixation with the yips, and as such his problem won't go away if he keeps reminding himself of it.

I think proper yips are very rare. But lack of confidence is just round the corner for most of us, so we do need to be aware of the difference


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Nov 30, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's a very broad description though isn't it Bob?

Was it Langer's lack of confidence that caused his? And at what level? Lack of confidence in his overall game? His putting in general? Or (just) his short putting? From memory, it was just his short-ish putts

With 2 of the guys I've known who have had yips, it has been restricted to just short puts, even 15" ones - and it was scary! One of the guys 'cured' it by putting left-handed, originally just for short ones, carrying both a left and a right-handed putter, but eventually went to left-handed for everything.
		
Click to expand...

If it was just short putts, is it not possible that it is fear? I'm no psychologist or neurologist but it strikes me that the only reason to not be able to make short putts is fear of missing.

We all miss short putts, and quite often when you miss one, you get another of the same length a hole or two later and it is very easy to let the missed one get into your head and miss the next one as well. This can easily build into a fear of short putts.

The very fact that people with the yips don't have the same issues on longer putts would seem to back up the fear theory.


----------



## Richuk123 (Nov 30, 2014)

I've always been what people might say "streaky" with a putter........ I'd say "not consistent enough" 

I had a 15min "MOT" putting lesson earlier in the year, and my issue was a break down of the left wrist through the hitting area. Ball position has always been forward. I tried everything , nothing improved.......until, while messing about one afternoon , I hit some putts with the ball back in my stance and instantly started holing putts......I Took it on the course and was amazed with what I saw.

I have been putting with ball back towards my right foot for 6 months now and I've never putted better. I have no plausible explanation why it works and on camera it looks awful, but it's working and I've played a ton of golf this summer with no bad putting round. Can't remember last time I missed inside of 4ft.

So my advice is try some different, whacky, odd, whatever gets that silly white thing in the hole!


----------



## delc (Nov 30, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think there are several things being mixed in here. There are some people who develop almost a phobia of putting where they can't pull the trigger or twitch at it and send a 3 footer 12 feet past. I reckon that is pretty rare, though. 

What is probably more common is people who just get worse at putting as they get older. Maybe they weren't great to start, but as they get older, they ir eyesight gets worse, including depth perception, they get some essential tremor, their grip gets affected by some arthritis or tendonitis and all of these add up to them missing a lot of putts. 

In fact, I have just found a scientific reference which described the yips as on a continuum (spectrum) between focal dystonia and choking. That sounds sensible and likely. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12477375

As for the Mayo Clinic, it is a sign of all that ails the US healthcare system if people are going to an international tertiary referral centre because of bad putting. Of course, the middle aged yippy golfer probably has some money to spend, and the US healthcare system is a business first.
		
Click to expand...

I can't accept that the yips are caused by old age and failing faculties. If that was the case I would be equally bad at putting using the claw grip as I am with a conventional grip, which is simply not true. As for tremors, I have already quoted the case of playing a match against a guy with Parkinson's Disease. He definitely did have shaking hands, but was still a pretty good putter! 

P.S. The conclusions in the abstract you published a link to are probably about right. The yips are a real problem for some golfers, but the exact cause of them is not fully understood.


----------



## USER1999 (Nov 30, 2014)

This sort of thread annoys the heck out of me. The article in GM too. The guy who wrote it is clueless at best. Most junk putters don't have the yips, they are just poor putters. End of.

But. There are those who do yip. It's not about technique. It's not about being a poor putter. We don't wish it on ourselves. It just flipping happens. And it's a nightmare.

I'm a good putter. Most of my friends would say this about me. I don't miss much. The rest of my game is shonky, but my putting is pretty good.

But every now and then, I'll go through a few months when I get the yips. It's like there is a trigger point in my hand, such that when the putter hits the ball, I flinch, and my hands jerk. The ball could go anywhere. I won't have a clue. Short putts are the worst.

If you haven't had this, you're opinion counts for zip. You have no idea. 

I hope you never get it. Because if you do, you might understand, but then you won't need to post on this thread.


----------



## Ethan (Nov 30, 2014)

delc said:



*I can't accept that the yips are caused by old age and failing faculties*. If that was the case I would be equally bad at putting using the claw grip as I am with a conventional grip, which is simply not true. As for tremors, I have already quoted the case of playing a match against a guy with Parkinson's Disease. He definitely did have shaking hands, but was still a pretty good putter! 

P.S. The conclusions in the abstract you published a link to are probably about right. The yips are a real problem for some golfers, but the exact cause of them is not fully understood.
		
Click to expand...

What I said was that there were clearly some people who have a proper twitch or tic which may have a neurological or psychological (hard to separate the two sometimes) basis and which causes serious problems, but in my opinion most people who had putting crises do not have any such neurological/psychological condition, but simply declining putting to which various factors can contribute. There is no question that faculties fail with age, often imperceptibly. If you haven't noticed that yourself, you must have a painting of a fairly decrepit looking version of you in your attic. 

There is a parallel with ME. ME is a post viral condition characterised by extreme fatigue, and it undoubtedly exists, but has come to be an umbrella term for a range of other ailments and complaints of varying degrees of actual pathology. See also autism, ADHD and a bunch of other diagnoses. A genuine core but a questionable halo.


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

I can still vividly remember the first time I yipped a putt, even though it was 15 years ago. I was playing in a knockout foursomes competition. We were two up with two to play. At the 17th we were on the green in two, quite close to the hole, while our opponents missed the green on the right. They chipped on reasonably close, so I had a putt for a birdie to win the hole and the match. It was about 4 feet, slightly uphill and slightly right to left. Almost before I knew what had happened, I stabbed it 6 feet past and way left of the hole. To make matters worse my partner missed the one coming back, and our opponents made their up and down putt to win the hole. They also won the 18th and the first extra hole to win the match. Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory! 

After that my putting got worse and worse, particular under pressure, until I seriously contemplated giving up golf altogether. I tried putting left hand below right and even borrowed a long putter for a couple of weeks, but couldn't get on with either method. Then I tried the claw grip which I had seen Chris di Marco using, and bingo, I could putt again!


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 1, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So when I responded to one of your many previous posts on the subject saying that the yips was just poor technique, was I infact right?
		
Click to expand...




delc said:



			No, not really. You know that you have the yips when you can make a smooth practice putting stroke, but when you put a ball in the way all you can manage is a horrible jerky snatch at it! It's as though the putter goes off in your hands!  

Click to expand...

Del, having just gotten around to reading the article that you based this thread on I'm afraid I am going to have to ask you to re-answer my post quoted above, taking into account the following lines from the article;

"...but most golfers yip because of bad technique, not mental issues. Look at it this way - if your stroke is technically weak, and you never work on improving  it, you're going to miss a lot of putts, even short ones. As your misses add up, your angst skyrockets. Enter fear, doubt, tension - now you're psyched out. In this very common scenario, yipping has manifested itself as a mental problem, but  the root cause - the thing that demands attention - is your technique"

So I ask you again (although I am sure I won't get a straight answer), is it not true that most of the people you claim to know who have the yips, and possibly even you yourself, simply have poor technique and not some as yet not really explained neurological disorder?


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

Yips always involve an involuntary twitch or movement (a dystonia), so not just a question of poor technique! Many golfers who develop the yips have been good putters in the past. As the Mayo Clinic suggested, changing your technique may effect a cure.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			"...but most golfers yip because of bad technique, not mental issues. Look at it this way - if your stroke is technically weak, and you never work on improving  it, you're going to miss a lot of putts, even short ones. As your misses add up, your angst skyrockets. Enter fear, doubt, tension - now you're psyched out. In this very common scenario, yipping has manifested itself as a mental problem, but  the root cause - the thing that demands attention - is your technique"
		
Click to expand...

Is there some (hard) evidential preamble to that paragraph? Otherwise there is really no more basis for that being true - rather than being qualified by 'I believe' - than any of the opinions on here. 

Watching someone who Yips defies logic. While the ex-Touring Pro I know who had them was also prone to the occasional 'panic attack' when 'in contention', the 2 other guys were both very smart business folk - one a retired Director of Sainsbury's, the other a Risk Director for several big Financial organisations - and an ex Minor County Cricket player! The latter was fine with long and medium length putts, but would twitch and jab (when he could actually move at all) at a gimee length one!  

Murph's experience above seems very similar! So it's more than just 'poor technique' imo. I do remember seeing a 'plan' - from the_coach - that may reduce some of the effects, but the only true 'solution' seems to be to find another technique that removes whatever is triggering the effect - often related to the right (fore?)arm!

However, those who simply write it off as simply 'poor technique' are just plain wrong imo!

I still can't understand why anyone who has truly been cursed by them would even consider being tempted back to re-experience them though!!  Maybe it's all part of the decreasing performance issue to find a specific cause rather than simply admitting to getting weaker from ageing. I can certainly relate to that!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's a very broad description though isn't it Bob?

Was it Langer's lack of confidence that caused his?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
How can you have confidence in a stroke that doesn't get the ball in the hole?
A slip in technique or a bad 'bounce' can lead to a lapse in confidence which spirals downwards.
This can be caused by one missed putt which puts doubt in the mind which affects the confidence on the next one and so on.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Absolutely.
How can you have confidence in a stroke that doesn't get the ball in the hole?
A slip in technique or a bad 'bounce' can lead to a lapse in confidence which spirals downwards.
This can be caused by one missed putt which puts doubt in the mind which affects the confidence on the next one and so on.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have a actual solution? As opposed to 'become confident'!

I'd venture there are many folk that could benefit if you do! Especially as one of the 'crutches' - the braced technique - is being banned soon.

Have you actually 'cured' anyone of them? If so, how?


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

I never said it was easy or that I had a simple solution.
All I was saying was you can dress it up and call it what you want and clever people can dream up scientific names for it but at the end of the day, the more difficult you make 'the cure' the less likely people will be cured.

I will ask anyone out there, have you ever seen anyone 'yip' from the shoulders or is it always in the wrists and forearms?


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Absolutely.
How can you have confidence in a stroke that doesn't get the ball in the hole?
A slip in technique or a bad 'bounce' can lead to a lapse in confidence which spirals downwards.
This can be caused by one missed putt which puts doubt in the mind which affects the confidence on the next one and so on.
		
Click to expand...

The vast majority of putts fail to go in anyway. A good putter will hole 95% of 3 footers or less, 50% of 6 footers and maybe less than 10% of 20 footers. You have to accept that. I miss putts using the claw grip, but I still have confidence in the method and haven't developed any tendency to yip putts with it as yet.

I can sort of understand the principle that repeated failures to hole putts could lead to a lack of confidence that eventually causes your brain and body to lock up and say 'I don't want to do this'. Maybe the cause of the yips?!

We have a member at our club who seems to have the full swing yips. His problem is starting the backswing. He often seems to freeze over the ball for over a minute, swearing at himself to get on with it, but usually hits a good shot once he can get moving!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			All I was saying was you can dress it up and call it what you want and clever people can dream up scientific names for it but at the end of the day, the more difficult you make 'the cure' the less likely people will be cured.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly wouldn't disagree with this. It's also the reason why, having found a 'fix', true 'yippers' simply stick with that and never return to the technique that triggered them! I bet (Sir) Paddy Hine is still putting 1-handed, left-handed - and he was a fairly good Golfer in his youth! 



bobmac said:



			I will ask anyone out there, have you ever seen anyone 'yip' from the shoulders or is it always in the wrists and forearms?
		
Click to expand...

The 'yip' always seems to be fingers/hands/wrist.  But I'm not certain whether that's cause or simply effect. Fingers/hands/wrist is certainly the 'easiest' to move physically so more likely to be where any 'jerk' is triggered/detected.


----------



## Region3 (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			The vast majority of putts fail to go in anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Really?

In a round of golf 18 putts MUST go in in order to finish each hole. If you take less than 36 putts for the round then you've holed more than you missed.

If I took more than 36 putts per round I'd be throwing my putter in the bin and claiming a medical disorder.


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

Region3 said:



			Really?

In a round of golf 18 putts MUST go in in order to finish each hole. If you take less than 36 putts for the round then you've holed more than you missed.

If I took more than 36 putts per round I'd be throwing my putter in the bin and claiming a medical disorder.
		
Click to expand...

The vast majority of long putts don't go in. You can only hope to leave the ball near enough to the hole to make the next one a virtual certainty!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2014)

The vast majority of my long putts also don't go - ?! That's the same for every golfer


----------



## Ethan (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			Yips always involve an involuntary twitch or movement (a dystonia), so not just a question of poor technique! Many golfers who develop the yips have been good putters in the past. As the Mayo Clinic suggested, changing your technique may effect a cure. 

Click to expand...

So you define yips as bad putts arising from a focal dystonia. Therefore focal dystonia is always the cause of yips, because you use a circular logic. 

The Mayo Clinic didn't make the same assertion, though, saying that there was a continuum between dystonia and choking. That makes sense.


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The vast majority of my long putts also don't go - ?! That's the same for every golfer
		
Click to expand...

When I had the yips they were most likely to happen on the sort of 3 or 4 footers that you should really make, or on long putts when there was some pressure to get the ball close to the hole. The ones in between were generally OK.  Maybe the problem was caused by something simple like getting anxious and looking up too soon, although in that case I am not sure why a change to the claw grip would have cured it! I didn't change any other aspect of my set-up. :mmm:


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			The 'yip' always seems to be fingers/hands/wrist.  But I'm not certain whether that's cause or simply effect. Fingers/hands/wrist is certainly the 'easiest' to move physically so more likely to be where any 'jerk' is triggered/detected.
		
Click to expand...

Read the second paragraph in my post #37 in this thread. My problem seems to relate mainly to my right arm and hand, which seem to to have a developed a mind of their own that I can't fully control.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			although in that case I am not sure why a change to the claw grip would have cured it! I didn't change any other aspect of my set-up. :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

The yips that I have seen have all resulted in the right hand flicking or hitting the ball at impact.
With the claw grip, you cant flick which is why you are more confident with that grip.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			Read the second paragraph in my post #37 in this thread. My problem seems to relate mainly to my right arm and hand, which seem to to have a developed a mind of their own that I can't fully control.
		
Click to expand...

Have you tried the V-Easy?


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Have you tried the V-Easy?
		
Click to expand...

If that's the gadget that fits between your forearms and is locked to the top of the putter grip, then yes. Only problem is that you can't use it within the rules during a stipulated round!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			If that's the gadget that fits between your forearms and is locked to the top of the putter grip, then yes. Only problem is that you can't use it within the rules during a stipulated round!
		
Click to expand...

Did you not get the feeling of controlling your right hand with it in on?
Obviously you cant use it in comps but the idea is by practicing with it, you get your confidence back as your stroke improves.


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			The yips that I have seen have all resulted in the right hand flicking or hitting the ball at impact.
With the claw grip, you cant flick which is why you are more confident with that grip.
		
Click to expand...

I think the claw grip works because your right hand and forearm are  rotated almost fully anticlockwise and can't close the putter club face or flick at the ball.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			I think the claw grip works because your right hand and forearm are  rotated almost fully anticlockwise and can't close the putter club face or flick at the ball.
		
Click to expand...

I know, that's what I just said


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			I know, that's what I just said 

Click to expand...

You didn't mention the anti-rotation part of it.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			You didn't mention the anti-rotation part of it. 

Click to expand...

Forget it, I'm out


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Forget it, I'm out


Click to expand...

Please don't be offended. That was not my intention!


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

One other possible cause of my yipping problem is that for years I played with a putter that was too long for me. 36" as opposed to the 33" one I use now. That almost forced me to have a rather wristy putting stroke. I now believe that a putter should be no longer than your floor to wrist measurement. This allows your arms to hang more freely and encourages a more pendulum type stroke.


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

Ethan said:



			So you define yips as bad putts arising from a focal dystonia. Therefore focal dystonia is always the cause of yips, because you use a circular logic. 

The Mayo Clinic didn't make the same assertion, though, saying that there was a continuum between dystonia and choking. That makes sense.
		
Click to expand...

I think that a true yip involves some sort of involuntary twitch, spasm, movement, or difficulty in starting the club back. Anything else is just bad putting!


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2014)

Nowhere in any of this can I see anywhere that says you practice the stroke regularly or get out and work on the stroke or holing out. That to me would be key, and not worrying so much about how you get it in the hole as long as you do it often


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nowhere in any of this can I see anywhere that says you practice the stroke regularly or get out and work on the stroke or holing out. That to me would be key, and not worrying so much about how you get it in the hole as long as you do it often
		
Click to expand...

Putting involves 2 skills:

1) Reading the slopes and pace of the green.
2) Setting the ball off on the intended line and at the correct pace.

It is skill 2 that yippers generally have a problem with.  I would generally turn the club over and hit the ball left and often too far as well, but I could also sort of block the putt well right of the target line. I could also often hit pretty perfect putts, especially from mid range, but what happened seemed to be rather random!  :mmm:

If you have got the yips, practicing can, if anything, make the problem worse!


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2014)

delc said:



			Putting involves 2 skills:

1) Reading the slopes and pace of the green.
2) Setting the ball off on the intended line and at the correct pace.

It is skill 2 that yippers generally have a problem with.  I would generally turn the club over and hit the ball left and often too far as well, but I could also sort of block the putt well right of the target line. I could also often hit pretty perfect putts, especially from mid range, but what happened seemed to be rather random!  :mmm:

If you have got the yips, practicing can, if anything, make the problem worse!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but that comes over as a defeatist attitude and to a degree you are reaping what you sow. If my golf game is poor, I work on it or get a lesson to cure the problem. Tool like the v-easy will help you grain a more reliable stroke and to be honest it sounds like the problem is more in your head than it is to do with technique and you're looking for an excuse


----------



## JCW (Dec 1, 2014)

You still going on about this yip thing Derek , I did not see anything wrong with your game when we played , we can swapped games mate


----------



## delc (Dec 1, 2014)

JCW said:



			You still going on about this yip thing Derek , I did not see anything wrong with your game when we played , we can swapped games mate
		
Click to expand...

Ah yes, but that was after I changed to the claw grip!  I'm still impressed by your shot from the middle of a wood at Sherfield Oaks, that you curved around lots of mature trees to finish 2 feet from the hole. About the best golf shot I have ever seen!


----------



## JCW (Dec 1, 2014)

More like 10 feet Derek ,  hook with a 5 iron that shot  . Garcia use the claw grip and unless i was seeing things he has gone back to the normal grip in the last event in Australia


----------



## USER1999 (Dec 2, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nowhere in any of this can I see anywhere that says you practice the stroke regularly or get out and work on the stroke or holing out. That to me would be key, and not worrying so much about how you get it in the hole as long as you do it often
		
Click to expand...

Practicing makes no difference, as it isn't for real. Even playing little games, to try to add some pressure does not replicate that first 2 footer in the monthly medal. On the practice ground, I could con myself into believing I am cured, but then it can still strike out on the course. Luckily I don't get it too often.


----------



## chrisd (Dec 2, 2014)

delc said:



			I think that a true yip involves some sort of involuntary twitch, spasm, movement, or difficulty in starting the club back. Anything else is just bad putting!
		
Click to expand...

I'm getting brassed off with the going round in circles bit.

If you twitch, spasm and have difficulty in taking the club back it can only come from the brain, even if it was caused by an injury your brain would stop/twitch/modify the action to save further injury or pain. So, you change your grip, in your case to a claw, your brain expects it to work and no  inner doubt or experience to cause it to yip, so, you putt better and, hey presto, no yip!

 To me it's no different to sticking your finger up a live electric socket, the first time you do it your brain lets you as it doesn't know what to expect, try to do it a second time and the brain will do its best to yip out of the action as it's built a knowledge of the consequence


----------



## delc (Dec 2, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I'm getting brassed off with the going round in circles bit.

If you twitch, spasm and have difficulty in taking the club back it can only come from the brain, even if it was caused by an injury your brain would stop/twitch/modify the action to save further injury or pain. So, you change your grip, in your case to a claw, your brain expects it to work and no  inner doubt or experience to cause it to yip, so, you putt better and, hey presto, no yip!

 To me it's no different to sticking your finger up a live electric socket, the first time you do it your brain lets you as it doesn't know what to expect, try to do it a second time and the brain will do its best to yip out of the action as it's built a knowledge of the consequence
		
Click to expand...

When I first tried the claw grip I was extremely doubtful that it would work, but actually it did. So no particular expectations!


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Dec 2, 2014)

GM What have you done to us?

Just see the production meeting

"Lets do a bit on the putting yips, That'll wake Del up and stir up the rest of the Forum"

Is it April 1st yet? :ears::lol:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Practicing makes no difference, as it isn't for real. Even playing little games, to try to add some pressure does not replicate that first 2 footer in the monthly medal. On the practice ground, I could con myself into believing I am cured, but then it can still strike out on the course. Luckily I don't get it too often.
		
Click to expand...

Up to a point I would be tempted to agree but there is nothing better than standing over a short putt knowing you've made a lot of these on the putting ground without an issue. I still think its a mental and not physical thing and for me, standing there and picturing a putt in practice going in will give positive images for the brain to react to and chances are produce a smooth stroke. You aren't going to make every one on the course but I still think you'll make more committed and better attempts


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			GM What have you done to us?

Just see the production meeting

"Lets do a bit on the putting yips, That'll wake Del up and stir up the rest of the Forum"

Is it April 1st yet? :ears::lol:
		
Click to expand...

Guess what is in the mag next month 


















Bigger holes


----------



## chrisd (Dec 2, 2014)

delc said:



			When I first tried the claw grip I was extremely doubtful that it would work, but actually it did. So no particular expectations! 

Click to expand...

Isnt that exactly what I'm saying??


----------



## chellie (Dec 2, 2014)

Haven't read all of the replies as lost the will to live somewhat but are the "yips" just being stabby and jerky with the putter


----------



## drewster (Dec 2, 2014)

The yips don't exist. It's all psychological and an excuse for poor technique. I missed a sub 2 footer on Sunday for half in a winter league match . Could blame it on the yips but in reality the heart was beating faster , i knew i HAD to make it and i made a bad stroke - terrible in fact. Didn't even find the edge of the hole !!!


----------



## delc (Dec 2, 2014)

chellie said:



			Haven't read all of the replies as lost the will to live somewhat but are the "yips" just being stabby and jerky with the putter

Click to expand...

Basically yes, but players who yip putts will typically make a perfectly smooth practice stroke, followed by a horrible jerky stab at the ball when they have to do it for real. Generally rather painful to watch. Pressure usually makes this worse. A player who putts perfectly well on the practice green may yip if it's this one to win the hole, the match, or the club championship. It's often the 3 to 4 footers that you should really make that seem to cause the worst problems! :mmm:


----------



## delc (Dec 2, 2014)

drewster said:



			The yips don't exist. It's all psychological and an excuse for poor technique. I missed a sub 2 footer on Sunday for half in a winter league match . Could blame it on the yips but in reality the heart was beating faster , i knew i HAD to make it and i made a bad stroke - terrible in fact. Didn't even find the edge of the hole !!!
		
Click to expand...

How do you know it wasn't a yip?


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2014)

drewster said:



			The yips don't exist. It's all psychological and an excuse for poor technique. I missed a sub 2 footer on Sunday for half in a winter league match . Could blame it on the yips but in reality the heart was beating faster , i knew i HAD to make it and i made a bad stroke - terrible in fact. Didn't even find the edge of the hole !!!
		
Click to expand...

Keep that thought and YOU will be fine!

YOU don't have the yips. And YOU have obviously not seen anyone who is afflicted with them!

And I don't believe you understand what the yips actually are! In the particular instance you mention, if you'd blamed it on the yips, it would have been a lie. As you stated, you just made a bad stroke. That's not what the yips are! Many Yippers would have struggled to even take the club back to make that stroke! And not just because it was 'important' either! The guy 'credited' with inventing the term (Tommy Armour) once had a 23 on one hole of a tournament because of them - though it was a Par 5!


----------



## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

I have had the chipping yips. Gave up the game for a number of years because of them. When I was a kid I had the re-grippping problem that Garcia had. Absolute nightmare. Both problems just disappeared, and practice, technique whatever made no difference with the chipping.


----------



## chrisd (Dec 2, 2014)

richart said:



			I have had the chipping yips. Gave up the game for a number of years because of them. When I was a kid I had the re-grippping problem that Garcia had. Absolute nightmare. Both problems just disappeared, and practice, technique whatever made no difference with the chipping.
		
Click to expand...

I always thought you chipped like Seve ................ oh no, sorry that was someone else!


----------



## richart (Dec 2, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I always thought you chipped like Seve ................ oh no, sorry that was someone else!   

Click to expand...

 I had a chipping lesson today, and surprisingly the Pro said my technique was .... Practicing in the lounge, and so far apart from topping one past Monty, and a shank just past the TV it is looking good.


----------



## Imurg (Dec 2, 2014)

The Yips do exist
They can be highly debilitating for the sufferer.
Obviously I'm no expert but my take is the Yips are entirely psychological .
There is a fear of the consequence of missing a putt and it is this fear that causes the stabbing putt or the inability to take the putter back.
As Murphy says, it doesnt manifest on a practice stroke as there is no consequence, on a practice green there is no consequence.
Poor technique can lead to the fear of missing so sorting that issue could help to solve the problem.
Completely changing a style - Langer's broomhandle, Delc's claw, reduces the fear factor as there is less expectation.
With less expectation comes more actual success which in turn leads to more confidence which makes you a better putter.

I could, of course, have dreamed this up during a fit of pique caused by hooking another drive into the undergrowth.....


----------



## delc (Dec 2, 2014)

After playing nine holes this morning (it was pretty raw and windy, scored 16 points with one three putt and three one putts using the claw grip), I went out on the practice green to try out some of the exercises suggested in the GM article on the yips, using the conventional right hand below left reverse overlap putting grip. Allowed the putter face to open slightly in the back swing, instead of trying to keep it square to the line, and also tried the hover putting drill over the ball. I then tried various length putts, including the dreaded 3 - 4 footers, and I have to say it worked rather well. Only one putt felt a bit yippy and even that went in the hole. Thanks GM! :thup:


----------



## delc (Dec 2, 2014)

For those who think there is no such thing as the yips:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1654754-ranking-the-10-worst-cases-of-the-yips-in-golf-history

utt:


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Dec 2, 2014)

delc said:



			After playing nine holes this morning (it was pretty raw and windy, scored 16 points with one three putt and three one putts using the claw grip), I went out on the practice green to try out some of the exercises suggested in the GM article on the yips, using the conventional right hand below left reverse overlap putting grip. Allowed the putter face to open slightly in the back swing, instead of trying to keep it square to the line, and also tried the hover putting drill over the ball. I then tried various length putts, including the dreaded 3 - 4 footers, and I have to say it worked rather well. Only one putt felt a bit yippy and even that went in the hole. Thanks GM! :thup: 

Click to expand...

 you said that you can't get yips on the practice green? That one putt that sas a "bit yippy" is called being an inconsistent amateur golfer


----------



## delc (Dec 3, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			you said that you can't get yips on the practice green.
		
Click to expand...

I could!


----------



## drewster (Dec 3, 2014)

delc said:



			How do you know it wasn't a yip? 

Click to expand...

Because just like ghosts, the tooth fairy, god and santa claus i don't believe they exist . I'm happy for anyone to believe they do for their own comfort , each to their own,  but in my opinion it's psychological not physical. All in the mind .


----------



## Piece (Dec 3, 2014)

drewster said:



*The yips don't exist.* It's all psychological and an excuse for poor technique. I missed a sub 2 footer on Sunday for half in a winter league match . Could blame it on the yips but in reality the heart was beating faster , i knew i HAD to make it and i made a bad stroke - terrible in fact. Didn't even find the edge of the hole !!!
		
Click to expand...

They do exist. As an ex-sufferer, I can vouch for that. Couldn't putt for two years and I will admit that a poor technique was the start of it.  In my case, I couldn't take the club away when I wanted. When I did, it was involuntary, snatched and unpredictable. It didn't matter if it was 2ft or 20ft, the same condition. Nerves never really came into it.

I cured it by moved to a Odyssey two-ball, hovering the putter and quickening up the putting process. I would also add that its more of an anxiety/mental behavioural issue - your brain gets used to that sort of behaviour and it becomes the norm. Yip sufferers have to break the circle and retrain the brain.


----------



## drewster (Dec 3, 2014)

Piece said:



			They do exist. As an ex-sufferer, I can vouch for that. Couldn't putt for two years and I will admit that a poor technique was the start of it.  In my case, I couldn't take the club away when I wanted. When I did, it was involuntary, snatched and unpredictable. It didn't matter if it was 2ft or 20ft, the same condition. Nerves never really came into it.

I cured it by moved to a Odyssey two-ball, hovering the putter and quickening up the putting process.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry Sir and no disrespect to you at all but that all seems placebo to me. A change of putter and technique "cured " you. That to me says it was a 
technical fault rather than a "condition" that you had. I'm going to be a non-believer until i experience this myself.


----------



## Imurg (Dec 3, 2014)

drewster said:



			in my opinion it's psychological not physical. All in the mind .
		
Click to expand...

Therefore, in the mind of the sufferer, they exist.......

QED.


----------



## Piece (Dec 3, 2014)

drewster said:



			Sorry Sir and no disrespect to you at all but that all seems placebo to me. A change of putter and technique "cured " you. That to me says it was a 
technical fault rather than a "condition" that you had. I'm going to be a non-believer until i experience this myself.
		
Click to expand...

Not overnight it didn't. It took time to 'retrain the brain', and I'm talking 6 months plus. Its not something that can be switched on and off.

You don't want to experience the yips, trust me. It will kill your love of golf.


----------



## delc (Dec 3, 2014)

Piece said:



			Not overnight it didn't. It took time to 'retrain the brain', and I'm talking 6 months plus. Its not something that can be switched on and off.

You don't want to experience the yips, trust me. It will kill your love of golf.
		
Click to expand...

True! It is difficult to make a good score when you are taking 4 or 5 putts on every green. My record was 6 putts on a par-3. Hit my tee shot to 20 feet and then yipped my way round and past the hole 5 times, until I somehow managed to hole one! However this is nowhere near Tommy Armour's record of 23 on a par-5, most of them on the green. Still stands as the record high score in USPGA history for one hole. Even John Daly has only managed an 18!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2014)

delc said:



			Tommy Armour's record of 23
		
Click to expand...

That seems familiar....Oh, yeah! Post 110!


----------



## Piece (Dec 3, 2014)

I've just read this thread end to end and I'm amazed at the generalisation and ignorance TBH, even from well established senior names.

Richard and Murph have it spot on. Yips are no laughing matter. Those who don't believe have obviously never experienced them. 

Poor technique is often the start. Then technique breeds lack of confidence, breeds lack of results, the anxiety levels go up, and this is repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated, getting more serious each time, until the brain, thinking it is doing you a favour, tries to 'fight' the physical body by preventing you from putting. It is so frustrating, debilitating and you can eventually give up.

As I said in a previous post, the cure is to break the cycle and retrain the brain to lower the anxiety levels to 'normal' everyday parameters. It can be change of putter, technique, pro, lessons, less time over the ball, etc. but I would recommend a change in putter routine as a starter for ten so that the brain can learn something new and good to replace what is corrupted. 

Proper yips won't be cured over night but over time. But they can be cured! My putting is now the best part of my game.

Its a bit of a rant, but it is a subject close to my heart and often, as demonstrated, misunderstood and ridiculed.


----------



## chrisd (Dec 3, 2014)

delc said:



			True! It is difficult to make a good score when you are taking 4 or 5 putts on every green. My record was 6 putts on a par-3. Hit my tee shot to 20 feet and then yipped my way round and past the hole 5 times, until I somehow managed to hole one! However this is nowhere near Tommy Armour's record of 23 on a par-5, most of them on the green. Still stands as the record high score in USPGA history for one hole. Even John Daly has only managed an 18!
		
Click to expand...

It's now that I usually post a story of my regular playing partner who started 4,5 and 6 putting. After a 5 putt I casually asked him if he'd like to borrow my Dave Peltz Putting Bible, he told me in very graphic terms what to do with it and queried what use it would be to him? I said that I wasn't suggesting he read it but if he put it behind the hole he wouldn't go so far past!!

A change to a broomhandle putter did the trick!


----------



## North Mimms (Dec 3, 2014)

I think we should introduce the Fight Club rule.

The first rule about the yips is that we don't talk about the yips


----------



## bobmac (Dec 3, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I think we should introduce the Fight Club rule.

The first rule about the yips is that we don't talk about the yips
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Talking about the shanks is much more fun


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 3, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I think we should introduce the Fight Club rule.

The first rule about the yips is that we don't talk about the yips
		
Click to expand...

What would delc talk about?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 3, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What would delc talk about?
		
Click to expand...

Larger holes , his HC and rules


----------



## USER1999 (Dec 3, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Agreed.
Talking about the shanks is much more fun 

Click to expand...

Jeez, not that as well. They visit periodically too! Currently 80 yards, or the 190 yard 16th.


----------



## delc (Dec 3, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Jeez, not that as well. They visit periodically too! Currently 80 yards, or the 190 yard 16th.
		
Click to expand...

I've suffered from them as well! Once I was having a good round in a medal at Wexham Park until I got to the par-4 14th, where I hit a pretty good drive down the middle of the fairway and then proceeded to shank 4 balls in a row over the OOB fence on the right.with a 7-iron. As my next shot would have been my 10th, I gave up and N/R'd. On another occasion I did something similar with my tee shot at the par-3 13th.  I got my record low Stableford score of 11 points on another day when I was having a fit of the unmentionables, and I only got that many because I was chipping and putting well!  A combination of the yips and then the shanks caused my handicap to go up from 13 to 19 over a 4 year period!  Yet I was still capable of making good scores on occasions, including my best ever score of 72 (4 over par) in a match. I got called a bandit for that one!


----------



## Ethan (Dec 4, 2014)

delc said:



			For those who think there is no such thing as the yips:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1654754-ranking-the-10-worst-cases-of-the-yips-in-golf-history

utt:
		
Click to expand...

OK, a scientific report in a learned journal? No, not really.

If you read the first page, it refers to the 'dreaded mental affliction', so kinda undermines your basis premise somewhat, no?

It is hardly news that there have been some players with major putting crises. We have seen them on Sky and some of us have been among them. The argument you are advancing, however, is that there is a "proper" condition of a neurological nature which causes a set of symptoms including spasms, jerky stroke and the inability to start the stroke. But most of the sensible coverage of this suggests that there is only a small group of players who have such a problem but the majority are just bad putters or chokers who call their bad putting yipping. Miraculously many of these can be cured, or at least have symptoms reduced, by better technique or coaching. Presumably this is similar to the alcoholics anonymous argument of blaming the disease rather than oneself.  

By the way, dystonia is a simply description of a functional problem, rather than identification of an underlying pathology. It is really just a fancy way of saying there is something funny going on with the muscles, just like dyslexia/dypraxia/dyspnoea means something funny going on with reading/movement/breathing. It is not a diagnosis, just a description of a disorder.


----------



## EuanRoss (Dec 4, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What would delc talk about?
		
Click to expand...

How seniors have a more rapidly declining ability than CONGU can keep up with?
Bigger holes?
Any rule of golf and how it's wrong/should be amended?
Anchoring?

The list goes on but is repetitive, wonder if he keeps a diary? Ah it's December, my rota suggests its time for a bigger hole thread.


----------



## delc (Dec 13, 2014)

Ethan said:



			OK, a scientific report in a learned journal? No, not really.

If you read the first page, it refers to the 'dreaded mental affliction', so kinda undermines your basis premise somewhat, no?

It is hardly news that there have been some players with major putting crises. We have seen them on Sky and some of us have been among them. The argument you are advancing, however, is that there is a "proper" condition of a neurological nature which causes a set of symptoms including spasms, jerky stroke and the inability to start the stroke. But most of the sensible coverage of this suggests that there is only a small group of players who have such a problem but the majority are just bad putters or chokers who call their bad putting yipping. Miraculously many of these can be cured, or at least have symptoms reduced, by better technique or coaching. Presumably this is similar to the alcoholics anonymous argument of blaming the disease rather than oneself.  

By the way, dystonia is a simply description of a functional problem, rather than identification of an underlying pathology. It is really just a fancy way of saying there is something funny going on with the muscles, just like dyslexia/dypraxia/dyspnoea means something funny going on with reading/movement/breathing. It is not a diagnosis, just a description of a disorder.
		
Click to expand...

Try this link then:

http://www.puttingyips.com/2013/putting-yips-what-are-the-yips/

Hover putting (as suggested in the GM article) probably works because it gets your putter stroke flowing freely again. It seemed to help me anyway!


----------

