# (Sorry this has been done to death) The solution to slow play is slow play



## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

I played twice this weekend as the missus was out and about for the majority of the weekend. Lucky me.

Sat tee time was 9.30am - 2 ball.

Sun tee time 7.10am (3rd out) - 3 ball.

Both rounds were almost 5 hours. Hoebridge GC in Woking btw.

Saturday saw us play through a 4 ball on the 3rd hole. This meant we bumped into a 3 ball ahead, who weren't being played through another 3 ball, who weren't being played through by 2 4balls with buggies. Needless to say, come the back 9, my head, heart and anything else I might of had had left me.

Sunday, and here's the kicker, a 4 ball rocked up without a tee time and were let out in front of us. So our 7.10am became 7.20am. Fourball ahead had 2 buggies. Took almost 30 mins to play the 1st (par5). We asked to play through them on the 7th, and they sounded disgusted that I'd suggested it, even though they were a hole behind. By the time we got to the 10th, they caught up with the 4 ball on foot ahead. No letting through.

I was angry. I felt like a weekend of great weather and good course condition was wasted. Until we decided to take our time on the 16th hole.

We all walked to each others balls, no "ready golf". We all watched putts, chatted, looked for lost balls for a full 5 mins etc. The final 3 holes on Sunday were the best of the weekend. 

I know a lot of you might argue we were irresponsible to do this, as it will have only held up the people behind us further. But there has to be a point where you put your own enjoyment of the game in front of others. 

So the solution to slow play, is to play slow. Much much better golf, less waiting on shots (we waited on almost every shot all weekend), and generally not winding myself up about the rude / irresponsible / un-etiquetted(??) golfers on the course.

I actually left the course Sunday wishing that I didn't care about slow play as much as I do (I used to think it didn't bother me) and thinking that maybe next week I should play the whole round slow, so I get enjoyment out of my own game.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2016)

So, your answer to what is widely regarded as one of the biggest issues currently affecting the game is to become part of the problem? Not just part of it, but to actively encourage it?  Great stuff...


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## Dan2501 (Apr 5, 2016)

So the solution to slow play is to make play even slower for the people behind you? Sounds legit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2016)

dufferman said:



			I played twice this weekend as the missus was out and about for the majority of the weekend. Lucky me.

Sat tee time was 9.30am - 2 ball.

Sun tee time 7.10am (3rd out) - 3 ball.

Both rounds were almost 5 hours. Hoebridge GC in Woking btw.

Saturday saw us play through a 4 ball on the 3rd hole. This meant we bumped into a 3 ball ahead, who weren't being played through another 3 ball, who weren't being played through by 2 4balls with buggies. Needless to say, come the back 9, my head, heart and anything else I might of had had left me.

Sunday, and here's the kicker, a 4 ball rocked up without a tee time and were let out in front of us. So our 7.10am became 7.20am. Fourball ahead had 2 buggies. Took almost 30 mins to play the 1st (par5). We asked to play through them on the 7th, and they sounded disgusted that I'd suggested it, even though they were a hole behind. By the time we got to the 10th, they caught up with the 4 ball on foot ahead. No letting through.

I was angry. I felt like a weekend of great weather and good course condition was wasted. Until we decided to take our time on the 16th hole.

We all walked to each others balls, no "ready golf". We all watched putts, chatted, looked for lost balls for a full 5 mins etc. The final 3 holes on Sunday were the best of the weekend. 

I know a lot of you might argue we were irresponsible to do this, as it will have only held up the people behind us further. But there has to be a point where you put your own enjoyment of the game in front of others. 

So the solution to slow play, is to play slow. Much much better golf, less waiting on shots (we waited on almost every shot all weekend), and generally not winding myself up about the rude / irresponsible / un-etiquetted(??) golfers on the course.

I actually left the course Sunday wishing that I didn't care about slow play as much as I do (I used to think it didn't bother me) and thinking that maybe next week* I should play the whole round slow, so I get enjoyment out of my own game.*

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That's the common attitude for the players who hold up the course - they only care about their enjoyment and their actions , they aren't bothered that their actions might affect other people's enjoyment of the game.


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2016)

Works for me.

On busy days at the weekend, you can only play at the speed of the course. You can't play faster, and you will never be waved through. You just won't. 

If you want a 2 1/2 hour round, play on Mondays,  at 06.30.

I hate slow play too, but expectations have to be reasonable.


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## Cheifi0 (Apr 5, 2016)

I think what he is saying is if it's going to be slow round and you know it and can't do anything about it just slow yourself done and concentrate on your own golf and try not get too frustrated.  That's ok if it's once in a blue moon but if it was a regular occurrence it would get tedious very quickly.


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

I have to agree a bit here. I have cut my slow play frustrations to playing at the pace the course is playing on any given day. Weekends can be slow so I pace myself to keep up with the group in front.


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

Dan2501 said:



			So the solution to slow play is to make play even slower for the people behind you? Sounds legit.
		
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bluewolf said:



			So, your answer to what is widely regarded as one of the biggest issues currently affecting the game is to become part of the problem? Not just part of it, but to actively encourage it?  Great stuff...
		
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I know, it's BEING part of the problem. But what can you do? Preach to a fourball of blokes who clearly play twice a year that they are the number one problem in golf and that they need to learn the etiquette of golf before coming out on the course? Whilst sitting on the 7th tee?

The only person who had a bad time this weekend was me, not them. At least becoming ignorant to the problem meant I enjoyed the game.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2016)

No, what he's actually saying is that he's actively going to play slowly next week. He won't want to be let through the group in front. He won't play at his natural pace.. He'll play slow social golf, and if anyone is stuck behind him then it's tough luck, because his enjoyment is more important than theirs.. 

I know that if I play a busy course at the weekend (or a forum meet which are always slow for some reason), then the pace is likely to be slow. I choose not to get annoyed by it.. I'm fairly calm about it.. However, I don't actively contribute to it by wandering around the course pretending it's a Sunday stroll around the local park..

Accept that the round might be slow, but you don't have to contribute to the problem...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2016)

Weekends will be at a slower pace mainly due to numbers and competitions 

If everyone is keeping up with the group in front then there is no issue - it will be the pace of the day. But all it takes ( and it happens every weekend ) is one group to lose a couple of holes and the impact of that will filter through the field - we see it regulary and with certain groups and people - they lose holes ( which itself isn't the biggest crime ) but they fail to look behind them to see that them slowing down backs up the whole field. We are about to send out the guidelines on the pace of the play from the R&A and inform certain regular offenders that they need to take heed of the guidelines or play at the end of the field. 

Sometimes a bit of common sense goes a long way 

Scenario - you are a fourball on the tee waiting to go off on your tee time and there is a 3 ball with two buggies behind you also waiting. So the question is - would you let the 3 ball go off in front of you knowing they will be quicker than you ?


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2016)

dufferman said:



			I know, it's BEING part of the problem. But what can you do? Preach to a fourball of blokes who clearly play twice a year that they are the number one problem in golf and that they need to learn the etiquette of golf before coming out on the course? Whilst sitting on the 7th tee?

The only person who had a bad time this weekend was me, not them. At least becoming ignorant to the problem meant I enjoyed the game.
		
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Doesn't mean you have to become the problem though, does it? Man up, accept the issue exists, but try to limit your involvement in the problem...


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## irip (Apr 5, 2016)

dufferman said:



			I know, it's BEING part of the problem. But what can you do? Preach to a fourball of blokes who clearly play twice a year that they are the number one problem in golf and that they need to learn the etiquette of golf before coming out on the course? Whilst sitting on the 7th tee?

The only person who had a bad time this weekend was me, not them. At least becoming ignorant to the problem meant I enjoyed the game.
		
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If your going to play at weekends you have to accept that the pace of play is going to be slow, and somewhere like hoebridge that is a pay and play and has a reputation for slow play is going to take at least 5 hours to get round.

If i was booking to play there at the weekend i would expect this and be prepared for it, if i could not spare that amount of time or was not prepared to wait all the way round then i would not of played.

Did the time it take suprise you?


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			No, what he's actually saying is that he's actively going to play slowly next week. He won't want to be let through the group in front. He won't play at his natural pace.. He'll play slow social golf, and if anyone is stuck behind him then it's tough luck, because his enjoyment is more important than theirs.. 

I know that if I play a busy course at the weekend (or a forum meet which are always slow for some reason), then the pace is likely to be slow. I choose not to get annoyed by it.. I'm fairly calm about it.. However, I don't actively contribute to it by wandering around the course pretending it's a Sunday stroll around the local park..

Accept that the round might be slow, but you don't have to contribute to the problem...
		
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I don't think actively playing slow is quite right. Sure, I won't play at my normal pace, as clearly that means I'll be up the arse of the group in front all day, and won't get played through. If I lost a hole I'd let the group play through, I'm not going to throw the etiquette out the window.

And yes, my enjoyment is top priority. We can't all be saviours of golf, putting our enjoyment at the bottom of the priority list so other golfers can slightly enjoy their round more.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2016)

No excuse for the Sunday round to take near 5 hours.  Pathetic.


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

irip said:



			If your going to play at weekends you have to accept that the pace of play is going to be slow, and somewhere like hoebridge that is a pay and play and has a reputation for slow play is going to take at least 5 hours to get round.

If i was booking to play there at the weekend i would expect this and be prepared for it, if i could not spare that amount of time or was not prepared to wait all the way round then i would not of played.

Did the time it take suprise you?
		
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It did. I had a chat with the vice captain a few weeks back and he said get out before 8am to get a good paced round. That has happened once... the day we were 1st ones out at 7am a few weeks back. Only been a member there since Feb, and it now seems that a round just shy of 5 hours is the norm :rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			No excuse for the Sunday round to take near 5 hours.  Pathetic.
		
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Well there are a number of courses that has 5 hours as their regular time mainly because of the make up of the course. I don't always think it's the length of time because I have gone round in 5 hours before but not waited on any shot and just kept up with the group in front and had no one waiting behind - that was the pace of that course - so five hours without being held up or waiting is ok but 5 hours on a course that should take 4 hours and where you are waiting on every shot is a different prospect


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well there are a number of courses that has 5 hours as their regular time mainly because of the make up of the course. I don't always think it's the length of time because I have gone round in 5 hours before but not waited on any shot and just kept up with the group in front and had no one waiting behind - that was the pace of that course - so five hours without being held up or waiting is ok but 5 hours on a course that should take 4 hours and where you are waiting on every shot is a different prospect
		
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I agree with this - if the course was set up like a dog, was really long, had some horribly tricky par 3's or super long par 4's... but this course isn't like that. I used to be a member at Merrist Wood GC in Guildford, and that was a longer course with most things off the fairway buried and dead. That course was tough, especially in the summer months when the rough was at it's longest, or the depths of winter with the winds into you. But that still was quicker than this course!


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## irip (Apr 5, 2016)

dufferman said:



			It did. I had a chat with the vice captain a few weeks back and he said get out before 8am to get a good paced round. That has happened once... the day we were 1st ones out at 7am a few weeks back. Only been a member there since Feb, and it now seems that a round just shy of 5 hours is the norm :rofl:
		
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I do know hoebridge and it has a bad reputation for slow play. It is difficult to get on a course at weekends without being a member and hoebridge fills the gap as being a decent course at a decent price that accepts nomad golfers at weekends.

They do seem to be all about the money and squeeze as many as they can get on at all times ( i think 7 minutes between tee times).

I dont think 5 hours for a round is ever acceptable but it is something that is common place at hoebridge, so if you want to play there at weekends its a price you have to pay.


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## Capella (Apr 5, 2016)

I think there is a difference between playing deliberately slow when there is room in front of you (which is a big NONO and you should never ever do) or relaxing into a given situation where you are stuck behind a slower group or a whole string of groups where playing through is not an option. In the second case it is much better to take your time over your shots and maybe even socialize a bit than getting more and more annoyed that you cannot uphold your usual pace. 

The thing is: putting stress on the players in front of you by playing balls into their heels or rushing up to the tee while they are still teeing off is not going to make things faster. Ever. It will very likely make them lose whatever momentum they have left and will make them hit more bad shots as a result of it, slowing things down even further. So relaxing and giving up on the idea of a 3 1/2 h round on a Sunday will help everyone (and minimize the risk of developing ulcers and high blood pressure). 

Slow play may not be the solution to slow play in general, but acceptance of pace of play in a given situation will lead to more enjoyment for everyone envolved and that will make the time seem shorter.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well there are a number of courses that has 5 hours as their regular time mainly because of the make up of the course. I don't always think it's the length of time because I have gone round in 5 hours before but not waited on any shot and just kept up with the group in front and had no one waiting behind - that was the pace of that course - so five hours without being held up or waiting is ok but 5 hours on a course that should take 4 hours and where you are waiting on every shot is a different prospect
		
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Those courses are not all that common.   hillside is the longest I've taken to play a round of golf.  That was 5 hours, waited all day long. 

5 hours as the 3rd or 4th tee time is a joke.


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## njrose51 (Apr 5, 2016)

I play as often as I can and I am still amazed when I see experienced club golfers doing things that hold up play - marking cards on greens, bags left in the wrong place, looking for balls over 5 minutes, players not playing shots whilst others looking for balls, not waving through, not being ready to play etc etc. I am also still stunned by the often stupidity and greediness of clubs when players are given closely timed tee off times of 5-7 minutes. They need to be more realistic. Comments on this thread have suggested we could slow down our own play to the pace of the course/let go of that Holy Grail of a 3 1/2 game. Possibly yes. Personally though I don't think we - as players - will ever really stamp out slow play as inevitably things will happen that affect the pace of game - bad shots, poor etiquette etc - or the fact that one day we will be stuck behind a group of players who are learning the game and will take umpteen shots per hole. Yes we can all behave better, learn how far we actually can hit our clubs, but the directive HAS to come from the R&A and the clubs themselves doesn't it? A stricter code of play for professionals, stricter rules for members, better briefings from the Pro Shop for visitors, better course maps on cards or cheaper course maps to buy, lengthier tee times, clearer guidelines on slow play etc. I don't think we can ever go back to how it was, or reminisce about the good old days, but instead, perhaps, we should be working towards a more acceptable future standard of play I just don't know how we are going to get there?


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## Slab (Apr 5, 2016)

When I read the OP I thought the message was: 
The solution to slow play killing your own game is to accept the days pace of play as soon as you can in your own round, even if its not your preferred pace 

Others seem to read that the OP wants to further aggravate slow play but it didn't come across that way to me


Any player/group can easily slow the pace for the field but, unless they are the root cause, they cannot speed up the pace for themselves or the remainder of the field

Once its slow that time has gone, it cannot be clawed back by a mid-group forcing themselves to wait several minutes per shot. They can only maintain pace/position and be ready to take up the opportunity to pass

The guys out of position or heading the field can make a difference, no one else can though


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## Curls (Apr 5, 2016)

My summary is

"When the bases are loaded and there is no hope of progression, you cannot change the pace of play, only how you respond to it"

Getting upset and annoyed as you wait around only upsets and annoys you, the people in front don't give a hoot about your game and the people behind only want you out of the way. I don't think becoming part of the problem is the solution, but I have learned that accepting your fate is better than ineffectually getting worked up.


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

njrose51 said:



			I play as often as I can and I am still amazed when I see experienced club golfers doing things that hold up play - marking cards on greens, bags left in the wrong place, looking for balls over 5 minutes, players not playing shots whilst others looking for balls, not waving through, not being ready to play etc etc. I am also still stunned by the often stupidity and greediness of clubs when players are given closely timed tee off times of 5-7 minutes. They need to be more realistic. Comments on this thread have suggested we could slow down our own play to the pace of the course/let go of that Holy Grail of a 3 1/2 game. Possibly yes. Personally though I don't think we - as players - will ever really stamp out slow play as inevitably things will happen that affect the pace of game - bad shots, poor etiquette etc - or the fact that one day we will be stuck behind a group of players who are learning the game and will take umpteen shots per hole. Yes we can all behave better, learn how far we actually can hit our clubs, but the directive HAS to come from the R&A and the clubs themselves doesn't it? A stricter code of play for professionals, stricter rules for members, better briefings from the Pro Shop for visitors, better course maps on cards or cheaper course maps to buy, lengthier tee times, clearer guidelines on slow play etc. I don't think we can ever go back to how it was, or reminisce about the good old days, but instead, perhaps, we should be working towards a more acceptable future standard of play I just don't know how we are going to get there? 


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You've hit the nail on the head there. The reason for my frustration is everything you've said above. And the reason for my conclusion - play slower - is exactly that. Our 2 ball getting frustrated seeing a group of buggies parked the wrong side of the green for the next tee isn't going to do bugger all to help slow play.


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## Junior (Apr 5, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Those courses are not all that common.   hillside is the longest I've taken to play a round of golf.  That was 5 hours, waited all day long. 

5 hours as the 3rd or 4th tee time is a joke.
		
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Wait till Trump & Carnoustie mate 

At least the view will be nice


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## patricks148 (Apr 5, 2016)

one thing ive gained from this thread is I'm glad i don't play on courses down there. it puts into prospective my last slow round which was two weeks ago, when we caught  a 3 ball who tee's off 20 mins before us and held us up the whole way round (a 4 ball).

our round took 3 and half hours which was half hour longer than it should have taken, due to one of them frozen over the ball for at least a minuet for each shot ( he's off scratch as well). a few words were said thats for sure.


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## Slab (Apr 5, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Those courses are not all that common.   hillside is the longest I've taken to play a round of golf.  That was 5 hours, waited all day long. 

5 hours as the 3rd or 4th tee time is a joke.
		
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Don't take it the wrong way but couple of questions:
Do you feel by waiting on every shot you reduced the duration of the round?  
Would that round have been a minute longer if your group had slowed down?

Not to be slower than the group in front obviously just match their pace so that you could pass easily if/when the chance comes along but play each hole slower than you did

So instead of waiting to play your shot you're walking, reading greens, thinking over club/shot/conditions/landing area/roll out etc etc just generally playing golf at a slower pace

Your group loses nothing in terms of position or pace but you're not spending time just waiting either

Basically asking yourself, is mid-round ever the best/right time to sort out golf's pace off play problem


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## woody69 (Apr 5, 2016)

People are slow, but don't realise they are slow. The easy answer is to have a clock on a few holes across the course, say every 3 holes that shows what the time should be if they are keeping to the correct pace of play. So starting clock has 8am, hole 3 would say 08:20am, hole 6 would say 08:50am etc. Players would immediately see how far they were behind (or ahead) of their expected time and it would give most people (I would imagine) an incentive to try and speed up.

I honestly think it would be that simple and you would soon start to see who was regularly holding people up.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2016)

Slab it was completely blocked from the get go. 

When we got to the second tee there was already a group there and the group in front of them where just leaving.  

No one was pushing to play through.  It wad just bumper to bumper the whole way. 

No amount of slowing down could get us into a flow with those in front.


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

The honest answer is that there is no solution, the problem will persist. You can point the finger at as many people as you like but most clubs cannot afford to lose members so do nothing. If my club is anything to go by, the worst offenders are long term members who think they own the place and adopt the 'I pay a lot for my membership and I will play how I want' attitude. You threaten action on some of these long term members and you could easily lose a dozen or more members with them when they flounce off. 

I have said this on a number of topics, not just pace of play, golf and golf clubs have no interest in change. They are happy with things the way they are whether it is pace of play, dress code, making the game more inclusive, attracting younger members and all sorts of other areas. 

Basically, until the last golf club in the area is about to close its doors permanently, there is a breed of golf club member who has no interest in anything beyond that which suits him and his peer group and those are the ones to who tend to run the clubs. 

Slow play will remain because there is no will at many clubs to do any more than pay it lip service.


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## Capella (Apr 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			If my club is anything to go by, the worst offenders are long term members who think they own the place and adopt the 'I pay a lot for my membership and I will play how I want' attitude.
		
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I totally second that. Granted, some beginners might be slow to start with just because they need more shots and hit a few complete misses, but at least at our course, they are normally very carefull not to hold people up and will let other groups through readily, because it makes them totally nervous to have someone waiting behind them. It's more the ecart driving long term members (many of them not as dynamic and athletic as they once might have been) who take their time and like to have a little chat in the middle of the fairway or on the green once in a while. :blah:

And they are known for it as well. Always fun to see how other players start racing towards the first tee to tee off in front of them when they see them pulling into the parking lot, leaving behind buckets of unhit balls on the range and half drunken coffees on the club house terrace.


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

We have ones who move about the course like the red arrows in formation. All 4 in a group to the first ball, have a chat, watch the shot, discuss the shot then all 4 to the next ball and repeat.


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## Qwerty (Apr 5, 2016)

So long as the club are accepting visitors on a Saturday then I'll always be as slow as the local muni'. I put up with it for years and nothing has changed. Your only as quick as the slowest group in front of you on the course and if this happens to be a 4 ball who are just starting out in the game then your knackered.
The only option is pay the fees and join a decent club.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2016)

Just go up to the group ahead and state to them "we are a smaller and faster group and so you won't mind us playing through as it'll save us from being tight up behind you all the time - and that's never much fun is it - feeling you are rushing every shot"  And when they say "well you won't be going anywhere" - just say "well that'll be our problem and we'll deal with it when we get to - thanks guys"


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just go up to the group ahead and state to them "we are a smaller and faster group and so you won't mind us playing through as it'll save us from being tight up behind you all the time - and that's never much fun is it - feeling you are rushing every shot"  And when they say "well you won't be going anywhere" - just say "well that'll be our problem and we'll deal with it when we get to - thanks guys"
		
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And if they don't let the group through ?


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

The way that a lot of golfers react to being asked if you can play through you would think you had asked if you could sleep with their wife.


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## irip (Apr 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			The way that a lot of golfers react to being asked if you can play through you would think you had asked if you could sleep with their wife.
		
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I take it you haven't seen my wife


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			The way that a lot of golfers react to being asked if you can play through you would think you had asked if you could sleep with their wife.
		
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Exactly - it seems it's a crime to not allow people through for some or even letting an obvious quicker group start before you


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

Amazing the amount of golfers who amble around the course but can get a real sprint on to get onto the next tee to tee off before the group behind get within a distance where they can ask to play through


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And if they don't let the group through ?
		
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Shoot them...

If they refuse you can politely state that you actually have a right to play through under etiquette and possibly under club guidance rules in place to avoid slow play.  I have never actually forced the point and walked onto the tee to play.  Don't think I would.  

I'd hope that were a group actually to come to my group asking to play through using language such as I have suggested - that we'd recognise that they must feel strongly about our pace of play or their desire as a smaller faster group to play through - and that we are only going to get aggro and hassle if we don't - so we just stand aside.

The problem would be much less so if players were taught how to play through a group and let a group behind play through.  In recent matches I have been waved through quite a few times by groups who knew what they were doing and knew that we knew what we were doing - and I reckon they added a handful of minutes maximum to the duration of their round.

So for instance - we were a foursome and a fourball in front of us.  As we approached the green one of the group in front came across and asked if we wanted to play through (they could see we were catching them).  We said yes thankyou - and proceeded to play out the hole.  Meanwhile the group in front teed off and off they went.  By the time we got to the tee and were ready to play they were just about  all out of range and stood aside as we teed off.  They then played on,  When we got to our balls they were still chipping on or about to start putting.  They marked their balls and stood aside.  We played on.  As we walked up that group replaced balls and played until we reached the green.  Those that hadn't finished marked their balls and picked up.  We played out and went to the next tee and teed off.  They got to the tee minutes before we got out of range.  So they maybe lost 3 minutes on the green and 2mins waiting for us to get out of range.  And our play-through went smooth as a babies bum.  Easy, and no grumbling from anyone


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## Snelly (Apr 5, 2016)

Personally, I think the OP is a slow player and this is one of a number of his posts that have an underlying current of mitigation against the biggest problem that golf has. 

There is no excuse for slow play.  You won't be any better a player if you copy Jason Day.   


Get a move on. Hit it, find it and hit it again.  Be ready to hit the ball when it is your turn.  Stop fannying about.


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Shoot them...

If they refuse you can politely state that you actually have a right to play through under etiquette and possibly under club guidance rules in place to avoid slow play.  I have never actually forced the point and walked onto the tee to play.  Don't think I would.  

I'd hope that were a group actually to come to my group asking to play through using language such as I have suggested - that we'd recognise that they must feel strongly about our pace of play or their desire as a smaller faster group to play through - and that we are only going to get aggro and hassle if we don't - so we just stand aside.

The problem would be much less so if players were taught how to play through a group and let a group behind play through.  In recent matches I have been waved through quite a few times by groups who knew what they were doing and knew that we knew what we were doing - and I reckon they added a handful of minutes maximum to the duration of their round.

So for instance - we were a foursome and a fourball in front of us.  As we approached the green one of the group in front came across and asked if we wanted to play through (they could see we were catching them).  We said yes thankyou - and proceeded to play out the hole.  Meanwhile the group in front teed off and off they went.  By the time we got to the tee and were ready to play they were just about  all out of range and stood aside as we teed off.  They then played on,  When we got to our balls they were still chipping on or about to start putting.  They marked their balls and stood aside.  We played on.  As we walked up that group replaced balls and played until we reached the green.  Those that hadn't finished marked their balls and picked up.  We played out and went to the next tee and teed off.  They got to the tee minutes before we got out of range.  So they maybe lost 3 minutes on the green and 2mins waiting for us to get out of range.  And our play-through went smooth as a babies bum.  Easy, and no grumbling from anyone
		
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This drives me nuts. If I'm being played through, stop, get out of the way, and let me play through properly. Playing just ahead, and constantly waving me up is not the way to do it, it's just rude. I had this happen to me in a match once, and it took 5 holes to get through, due to the guys in front waving up, and then legging it.
Waiting doesn't take long, so let the guys playing through get on with it, and the group standing aside are never in danger of being hit by a golf ball.
I wouldn't stand just off the fairway, or just off the green, inviting the lot behind to have a free shot at me.


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## woody69 (Apr 5, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			This drives me nuts. If I'm being played through, stop, get out of the way, and let me play through properly. Playing just ahead, and constantly waving me up is not the way to do it, it's just rude. I had this happen to me in a match once, and it took 5 holes to get through, due to the guys in front waving up, and then legging it.
Waiting doesn't take long, so let the guys playing through get on with it, and the group standing aside are never in danger of being hit by a golf ball.
I wouldn't stand just off the fairway, or just off the green, inviting the lot behind to have a free shot at me.
		
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By forcing someone to completely stop and move aside allowing you through and then only proceeding once you have either finished the hole or completely out of range is adding to the problem. You just cause congestion as the group behind the group you are letting through are going to catch up and they will then be held up.

The only time it is OK to step aside like you suggest is if there is no one behind the group you are playing through. Otherwise the process should be as SILH describes and you effectively play up together for one hole and a bit.


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## sawtooth (Apr 5, 2016)

If you cant beat them then join them.

Fair enough mate, when you have tried everything in your power to go through then why not adjust your pace so that you aren't waiting an inordinate amount of time on every hole?

I've seen some people adopt a different policy of "play when they're still in range, they'll soon get the message" so you opted for the safe and diplomatic option of hanging back a bit.


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2016)

woody69 said:



			By forcing someone to completely stop and move aside allowing you through and then only proceeding once you have either finished the hole or completely out of range is adding to the problem. You just cause congestion as the group behind the group you are letting through are going to catch up and they will then be held up.

The only time it is OK to step aside like you suggest is if there is no one behind the group you are playing through. Otherwise the process should be as SILH describes and you effectively play up together for one hole and a bit.
		
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That is not allowed at my club or the one I was at before. Once you call a group up you have given the hole over to them and you are not allowed to play until they are out of range or finish the hole


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## njrose51 (Apr 5, 2016)

I think I've done everything that has been commented on here - approaching people on the tee, hitting whilst in others range, adjusting my game speed to suit the play, even calling the event organiser to come out and have a moan at the group in front. Being let through doesn't always solve the problem, either for you or the groups behind. There is part of me (and the good lady wife!) that is now resigned to the fact that a game of golf will take 4.00-5.00 hours. For me, until it changes from above and with the golf clubs themselves, is to play my own game and not worry about what is happening in front. If I have to wait, I wait. I try and relax, focus on the next shot, course management, making sure yardages are known, practise my grip or takeaway, practise chipping techniques (without a ball obviously), etc etc. I agree that it is a sad state of the game but we are not all the same, whether it is the style of our play, our ability or our desire to get round in a reasonable time. We cant control the weather, the unjust bounce, etc either. So most of us on this forum know the correct etiquette of the game and in a way it is down to us to keep forcing the issues with our clubs, our playing partners, the R&A and use organisations like Golf Monthly to keep making the point.


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## dufferman (Apr 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Personally, I think the OP is a slow player and this is one of a number of his posts that have an underlying current of mitigation against the biggest problem that golf has. 

There is no excuse for slow play.  You won't be any better a player if you copy Jason Day.   


Get a move on. Hit it, find it and hit it again.  Be ready to hit the ball when it is your turn.  Stop fannying about.
		
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I'm not a slow player.... Did you READ the first post...?


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## patricks148 (Apr 5, 2016)

dufferman said:



			I'm not a slow player.... Did you READ the first post...?
		
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Oh i don't know, you do seem to post a lot about how slow your rounds are... that a winning prizes!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2016)

I would be fuming if I was 3rd off and went round in nearly 5 hours, that's just not acceptable on any course. The first 2 flights need a shoeing.

Later in the day, yep these rounds happen, relax but be ready to play, don't make it worse for those behind you.


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## Billysboots (Apr 5, 2016)

I may have missed the explanation elsewhere in the thread but, focusing solely on the Saturday round, why on earth are your club allowing a 2-ball out at 9.30am? Quite aside from the fact it means you'll be the meat in all the sandwiches when you get stuck between 3 and 4-balls, every time you get let through it has a massive knock on effect on the pace of play behind.

There aren't that many clubs which allow 2-balls out that late on a Saturday, and those which do tend to be quite strict - expect the pace of play to be that of a 4-ball and don't get upset if that's too slow for you.


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## freddielong (Apr 5, 2016)

Almost every group will have a gps or similar device with them maybe at some point these could be monitored from the club house and players could be told to wave groups through or even penalties or warnings given.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			The honest answer is that there is no solution, the problem will persist. You can point the finger at as many people as you like but most clubs cannot afford to lose members so do nothing. If my club is anything to go by, the worst offenders are long term members who think they own the place and adopt the 'I pay a lot for my membership and I will play how I want' attitude. You threaten action on some of these long term members and you could easily lose a dozen or more members with them when they flounce off. 

I have said this on a number of topics, not just pace of play, golf and golf clubs have no interest in change. They are happy with things the way they are whether it is pace of play, dress code, making the game more inclusive, attracting younger members and all sorts of other areas. 

Basically, until the last golf club in the area is about to close its doors permanently, there is a breed of golf club member who has no interest in anything beyond that which suits him and his peer group and those are the ones to who tend to run the clubs. 

Slow play will remain because there is no will at many clubs to do any more than pay it lip service.
		
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Brilliant post. The answer would be education but if the members aren't prepared to listen and learn then nothing will change. Most won't accept they are even part of the problem


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## Qwerty (Apr 5, 2016)

Is Hoebridge a Pay and Play?

If so is there anyone who's played 18 holes on a pay & play/ Muni in less than 5 hours.. During the season on a weekend?

I know I haven't and I did it every weekend for about 3 years before I joined a club.

Its a different Game. There's probably groups out there who've only just started out, some ok and some who'll probably never pick up a club again. You've no option other than to go with the (Very Slow) Flow.

It might be different in Surrey but I wouldn't fancy approaching a group of lads on a Manchester Muni and trying to 'Educate' them on the knock on effect of Slow Play.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Is Hoebridge a Pay and Play?

If so is there anyone who's played 18 holes on a pay & play/ Muni in less than 5 hours.. During the season on a weekend?

I know I haven't and I did it every weekend for about 3 years before I joined a club.

Its a different Game. There's probably groups out there who've only just started out, some ok some and who'll probably never pick up a club again. You've no option other than to go with the (Very Slow) Flow.

It might be different in Surrey but I wouldn't fancy approaching a group of lads on a Manchester Muni and trying to 'Educate' them on the knock on effect of Slow Play.
		
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It is pay and play and to be honest five hours is the norm


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2016)

Slow play again? 
The OPs point may be seen by a lot here as not the done thing but, he stated that the last 3 holes were more enjoyable for him and his pp's when they 'adjusted' their pace to those in front who were holding them up. So as well as being aware of your standing on the course if those in front won't let you through then accept it and adjust your pace accordingly. What is the point in getting all wound up after all as some would attest to on here, it's just a hobby, pastime.


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## freddielong (Apr 5, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It is pay and play and to be honest five hours is the norm
		
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Seriously 5 hours I am not sure  I could handle that 4 hours is too long


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

freddielong said:



			Seriously 5 hours I am not sure  I could handle that 4 hours is too long
		
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To be honest, most of the play and pays around here (Pine Ridge, Downshire, Hoebridge) are all going to be the same at weekends. I know what you mean and I couldn't do it regularly.


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## Qwerty (Apr 5, 2016)

freddielong said:



			Seriously 5 hours I am not sure  I could handle that 4 hours is too long
		
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I did it every week for some time. I think it gets to the point where you either bite the bullet and join a club or find something else to do at weekends.

I suppose if your happy just playing with your mates and you don't want to take it any further then you just put up with it.
Also I don't know about the rest of the country but Theres some very good Muni's in the North West.


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## Karl102 (Apr 5, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			I did it every week for some time. I think it gets to the point where you either bite the bullet and join a club or find something else to do at weekends.

I suppose if your happy just playing with your mates and you don't want to take it any further then you just put up with it.
Also I don't know about the rest of the country but Theres some very good Muni's in the North West.
		
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Walton Hall in Warrington (a decent muni) would be a good 5 and a half hours on a hot day weekend in the Summer.... People know the score before they go and enjoy it.


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## Senseicads (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm a member at Merrist Wood, it's a long course. Our rounds are usually 4.5 hrs. There is a pace of play sign on the tenth which says 2 ball 2hrs05 4 ball 2hr15 I think it is. That's just how long it takes. 5 hrs is very easily acheived when the course gets a bit backed up. The pace isn't slow, it's just the way it is. I think most people on the forum would hate our course from the sound of it!


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## Birchy (Apr 5, 2016)

Too many players give it the "I'm not a slow player" despite being painfully slow.

All the literature out there telling chompers that a pre shot routine is key and don't hit until you feel ready etc doesn't help. Back away and start again if required :angry:


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

Senseicads said:



			I'm a member at Merrist Wood, it's a long course. Our rounds are usually 4.5 hrs. There is a pace of play sign on the tenth which says 2 ball 2hrs05 4 ball 2hr15 I think it is. That's just how long it takes. 5 hrs is very easily acheived when the course gets a bit backed up. The pace isn't slow, it's just the way it is. I think most people on the forum would hate our course from the sound of it!
		
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If you're still moving then it doesn't always feel that long. However waiting on every shot, and especially on the tee becomes a drag, especially in the cold or the wet. I've played your course and to be honest have no idea how long we took as a four ball but we never felt it was an age.


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## freddielong (Apr 5, 2016)

Karl102 said:



			Walton Hall in Warrington (a decent muni) would be a good 5 and a half hours on a hot day weekend in the Summer.... People know the score before they go and enjoy it.
		
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You can do 36 in that time


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2016)

Bit confused (not dificult) all you folks saying 5hrs is the norm on a muni is that mid morning to mid afternoon? The OP said they were the 3rd group off! Surely it shouldn't take that long at any course with such an early tee off time?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2016)

see what the OP is saying and agree to an extent. When my dad and I play I always get frustrated by slow play in front but he says just slow down.. hold back a bit so we arent on their backs and we will enjoy our round more.. Have to admit it works.. 

if your not getting played through and cant speed up the group in front just go with it


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit confused (not dificult) all you folks saying 5hrs is the norm on a muni is that mid morning to mid afternoon? The OP said they were the 3rd group off! Surely it shouldn't take that long at any course with such an early tee off time?
		
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It depends on the groups ahead I guess. I play in a roll up and there is a group that go out about 30 minutes before us. On;y about 3 x 4 balls but so painfully slow our first 4 ball usually catches them by the 4th or 5th and we then wait and concertina up behind. They are told about it regularly and have been reported by nothing ever changes and the club simply won't do anything about it and don't see it as an issue even though they're setting the pace for the morning play


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## Qwerty (Apr 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit confused (not dificult) all you folks saying 5hrs is the norm on a muni is that mid morning to mid afternoon? The OP said they were the 3rd group off! Surely it shouldn't take that long at any course with such an early tee off time?
		
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It shouldn't do but they copped for a group of Choppers in front who took 1/2 hour to play the first. In my experience Theres nothing unusual about that on a Muni. 

We sometimes used to play Heaton Park at 5:00am and pay when we'd finished just to get round in a reasonable time. To be fair though I think we were pretty slow back then, I know I was.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			It shouldn't do but they copped for a group of Choppers in front who took 1/2 hour to play the first. In my experience Theres nothing unusual about that on a Muni. 

We sometimes used to play Heaton Park at 5:00am and pay when we'd finished just to get round in a reasonable time. To be fair though I think we were pretty slow back then, I know I was.
		
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Think I'd have said something on the second or third!!!!


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## t0m (Apr 5, 2016)

I have always been told walk fast play slow.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Think I'd have said something on the second or third!!!!
		
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we played our first society day other week.. now bear in mind 25 of us showed up.. 3 groups of 3 and 4 groups of 4.. all tee times reserved..

anyways I was in the last group.. this group behind (4 ball) went off to play other holes as they were getting held up in their eyes.. then group of 2 behind appeared (of course going to be faster) they were 2 ladies playing a match apparently.. I decided to be polite go to them whilst we were teeing off and explain we were part of a 25 society and that otherwise we would let them through.. they agreed and then said it was the clubs fault for scheduling a match so close to a society. All cool I thought. Then they proceeded to tell 2 groups in front of us to "speed it up" even though we were all waiting for each group fair way to fairway.. never got more than 1 hole from 2 groups in front. they then asked TWICE if they could weave through.. we told them no. 

stupidest thing was they had other 2 ball matches behind them.. whats wrong with making a 4 ball and enjoying your day more? idiots


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## Qwerty (Apr 5, 2016)

Karl102 said:



			Walton Hall in Warrington (a decent muni) would be a good 5 and a half hours on a hot day weekend in the Summer.... People know the score before they go and enjoy it.
		
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Is that including 1/2 hour at the legendary Butty Van


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 5, 2016)

pauljames87 said:



			we played our first society day other week.. now bear in mind 25 of us showed up.. 3 groups of 3 and 4 groups of 4.. all tee times reserved..

anyways I was in the last group.. this group behind (4 ball) went off to play other holes as they were getting held up in their eyes.. then group of 2 behind appeared (of course going to be faster) they were 2 ladies playing a match apparently.. I decided to be polite go to them whilst we were teeing off and explain we were part of a 25 society and that otherwise we would let them through.. they agreed and then said it was the clubs fault for scheduling a match so close to a society. All cool I thought. Then they proceeded to tell 2 groups in front of us to "speed it up" even though we were all waiting for each group fair way to fairway.. never got more than 1 hole from 2 groups in front. they then asked TWICE if they could weave through.. we told them no. 

stupidest thing was they had other 2 ball matches behind them.. whats wrong with making a 4 ball and enjoying your day more? idiots
		
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That's a bit harsh. I know if I was playing a match I wouldn't want a couple of hangers on joining us. Sounds like a no win situation all round although the fact there were only two of them, while maybe explaining their faster speed, is not a reason to refuse to let them through.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's a bit harsh. I know if I was playing a match I wouldn't want a couple of hangers on joining us. Sounds like a no win situation all round although the fact there were only two of them, while maybe explaining their faster speed, is not a reason to refuse to let them through.
		
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We refused to let them through because we were literally a group of 25 (don't normally let people into a society booking) and the group in front of us we were waiting for them to play their second shot on every hole whilst they were waiting for the group in front to clear the green so was going as fast as possible.

Plus the groups behind were all member matches. Could easily just team up to slow the play down and enjoy more.


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## Karl102 (Apr 5, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Is that including 1/2 hour at the legendary Butty Van 

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At least!!!! Sausage and bacon Special !!!


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## patricks148 (Apr 5, 2016)

pauljames87 said:



			We refused to let them through because we were literally a group of 25 (don't normally let people into a society booking) and the group in front of us we were waiting for them to play their second shot on every hole whilst they were waiting for the group in front to clear the green so was going as fast as possible.

Plus the groups behind were all member matches. Could easily just team up to slow the play down and enjoy more.
		
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what absolute rubbish, have you never heard of allowing faster groups through???

if you are having a match why would you team up!!!! how about you learning some etiquette?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2016)

It's called common sense? Only would be a suggestion because then they would naturally slow down. Wouldn't be waiting for us so much so in turn wouldn't be as frustrated.

Yes let faster groups through but hardly ever let through a society specially when you are back to back the whole way. If you are keeping pace with the group in front and are having to wait yourself letting them through will not solve the issue. Plus we played ready golf the entire time so we didn't add to the issue.

etiquette? At least I was polite enough to explain what was in front and say "otherwise we would let you through but we are all back to back so there isn't room" to which they excepted at first it was just one of them that kept asking after we politely told them.

Im not a DJ I don't do requests. If someone asks repeatedly after I've taken time to explain the situation why the heck would I then let them through? Whole group agreed and at the end we finished in under 4 hours for a 4 ball in a society so that's hardly slow


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2016)

GB72 said:



			That is not allowed at my club or the one I was at before. Once you call a group up you have given the hole over to them and you are not allowed to play until they are out of range or finish the hole
		
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what's not allowed - two groups playing towards the one hole at the same time - and coordinating their play to enable a group to play through whilst minimising the delay for the group letting through - and following groups?  That's daft - and I don't see how on earth or why on earth your club would not allow it, it doesn't actually cause any issues whatsoever.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2016)

I had a player from my own B-team standing on the 11th tee shout across at my 4-ball as we crossed the bridge coming off our 12th green walking towards the 13th tee moaning that it took them 2.5hrs to get to the turn and pointed out we had too big a gap from the group in front, which was not the case!

Admittedly we had lost a hole up to the 6th quite quickly due to a 28 handicapper from the opposition club who we were playing against having a torrid time off the tee early doors, he had only just started playing and hadn't been to our club before and it can be very tough on a first visit, but as he settled and got rid of his anxiousness we eventually got that hole back, but, throughout that period the group behind very rarely waited or pushed us anyway. 

Anyway, he got a few choice words shouted back at him from me and I was going to have a few more when I got in but my PP told me to let it slide.  Our group was just over half a hole behind the group in front as we drove down the 13th (par 5) as we had to wait for the green to clear as we got to around the 150 marker!  With my group walking off the 12th green and gobby on the 11th tee and with 2 groups in-between, the issue wasn't with us anymore, the group behind us were looking to approach the 12th green as we walked off it and the group behind them should have been on the 12th tee, but they weren't, they were halfway up the 11th, so it was that group that was holding the group with the big gob in it but he was just looking to vent off!

Now I accept that we had a problem very early in the round and sometimes groups behind who are affected sometimes don't all catch back up with play, but this retired banker (spelt with a W) was out of order IMO, especially as we're hosting guests from another club and visitors playing in 4-balls won't be quick!

I think this slow play topic now has become an excuse for those not playing well on any given day, I'm not saying it can't affect how we play at times and thus affect our enjoyment, because it can, especially when you're waiting on every shot, but it's a hot topic in all golf circles at present but with pick, clean & place on fairways and clean & drop in the rough because of muddy balls currently, all that extra time alone is going to add up longer than a typical summer 4-ball when you just walk up to the little fella and smack it again, factor in we were off the back sticks in soft damp conditions so little run on the fairways and it's all going to have an effect!

We shook hands on the 16th winning my match 3&2 and it took 4hrs 20mins so we didn't play the last 2 holes as the clubhouse was in sight, yes that was a bit long, but I think in the soft conditions, the standard and age of players and being off the back sticks, that kind of time is becoming the norm with a 4-ball!


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## Slab (Apr 6, 2016)

We really are a weird bunch and I know the traffic analogy has been used before to compare to golfâ€™s pace of play but since the topic is up again...

My daily commute typically is 50 minutes
The fastest itâ€™s been is 28 minutes 
The slowest is over 2 hours

The reason for the variance, in every case, is that something has changed. Be that time of journey, traffic volume, weather, unexpected incidents, type of day (public holiday etc) types of vehicles, road conditions and other events like road works + a host of other things

So the same â€˜courseâ€™ often takes me longer/shorter than my typical duration and like most of you I kinda know before I set off how long itâ€™s likely to take on any given trip but even then thereâ€™s unforeseen events to affect the overall time

Why then do so many golfers lose the ability to accept this logic when applying it to a round of golf and insist that every round should be a good-un (time wise) and then lose the plot (& their score) when they need to wait sometimes or the time taken doesnâ€™t meet expectations even if itâ€™s just 15 minutes extra? 

â€¢	Would you really attempt to solve the traffic problems en-route to work (& who appointed you road captain anyway) 
â€¢	Do you seriously get out of your car and head off across lanes to chastise someone about their behaviour 
â€¢	Have you ever managed to successfully educate another road use on their etiquette and slow pace
â€¢	Have you ever managed to get speedy/lane changer driver to consider the impact of his actions to others  
â€¢	Do you really care about how long it takes other drivers to get home or just your own time that bothers you
â€¢	Do you really toss a copy of the highway code to folks with the â€˜show me where it says... â€™
â€¢	Do you get home/work and regularly jump on a forum to complain about a lane changer, slow driver, an escorted load, bank holiday volumes, rain delays etc
â€¢	Do you follow slower drivers home to berate them as they park up 
â€¢	Do you drive at your preferred normal pace regardless of other traffic and then complain because you canâ€™t keep to that pace  
â€¢	Do you tailgate in order to â€˜forceâ€™ someone to speed up
â€¢	Has your typical commute stayed the same time for the same route than when you â€˜played that courseâ€™ 30 years ago


Yes absolutely, something will need to be done if things are to improve on your commute but just ask yourself this, is it any of the above!

Consistent change & improvement will not come from a golfer playing a round just like it wonâ€™t come from a driver going off on one


Edit to add: And is the person/s behaviours described above, part of the solution or part of the problem!


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## Smiffy (Apr 6, 2016)

My favourite seven words when waiting by the 1st tee, usually said by somebody waiting for the green to clear on the par 4 before teeing off who then proceeds to duff it 80 yards.....

"Going to be a slow round today"


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## garyinderry (Apr 6, 2016)

Not sure I agree with that last paragraph fish. 

4.20 to play 16 holes is an age no matter who is playing.  

Seems like the fella clocked you guys as being slow and fancied letting you know. Admittedly he could have been a lot more polite.


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## Alex1975 (Apr 6, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			what absolute rubbish, have you never heard of allowing faster groups through???

if you are having a match why would you team up!!!! how about you learning some etiquette?
		
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OMG I cant believe its going to happen but it is..... It hurts a little.... Here is comes.... I agree with Patrick. There are 25 of you turned up together and that is your reason for not letting a 2 ball through....HU? You all have to be close to one another why?

"It's called common sense?" Really?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			OMG I cant believe its going to happen but it is..... It hurts a little.... Here is comes.... I agree with Patrick. There are 25 of you turned up together and that is your reason for not letting a 2 ball through....HU? You all have to be close to one another why?

"It's called common sense?" Really?
		
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Agree and welcome back mate


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## Curls (Apr 6, 2016)

Last month I played through a 3 ball on the 3rd (as well as several other groups afterwards) and passed them again as I played the 14th. They were on the 8th. Did letting me through really slow them down?! The pace of play was being dictated by a 4 ball of lads 4 holes ahead. Not me, nor any of the two balls. When I got to the 12th I had the whole course empty ahead of me.

I had to ask that three ball if I could go through and got the customary 

"Not letting you through mate, course is busy"

I said if the two ball ahead didn't leave me through I was going to skip ahead anyway, that's the only reason I got through 3 people who decided for me that I would play a 5 hour round at the back of an imagined immovable object. I can categorically state that they did not finish their round one minute slower by letting me through.

As it happens every other group (mostly couples out to enjoy themselves and understandably not wanting to partner-up) were immediate in their waving through, we all exchanged pleasantries and everyone was very nice and had a nice time.

"Not letting you through mate, course is busy"


If I'm out in a 3 or 4 ball and it is slow I think the only way to deal with it is not get worked up and just try to enjoy the game. But faster groups should be allowed through. It won't slow you down as a 4 ball to leave a 2 ball through.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 6, 2016)

This really backs up my solution.

To cure slow play by behaviour it needs everyone on the course to comply.

If instead we cut the course length and/or the number of holes then round times come down with no reliance on behaviour change.

Also memberships become cheaper as less land is needed.

14 holes seems about right to me with current hole lengths bit 12 could also work well.


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## woody69 (Apr 6, 2016)

ScienceBoy said:



			This really backs up my solution.

To cure slow play by behaviour it needs everyone on the course to comply.

If instead we cut the course length and/or the number of holes then round times come down with no reliance on behaviour change.

Also memberships become cheaper as less land is needed.

14 holes seems about right to me with current hole lengths bit 12 could also work well.
		
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I'd rather take 4-5 hours and play 18 holes than 2.5 hrs to play 12-14.

Why is everyone in such a rush?!


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## Whereditgo (Apr 6, 2016)

ScienceBoy said:



			This really backs up my solution.

To cure slow play by behaviour it needs everyone on the course to comply.

If instead we cut the course length and/or the number of holes then round times come down with no reliance on behaviour change.

Also memberships become cheaper as less land is needed.

14 holes seems about right to me with current hole lengths bit 12 could also work well.
		
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Or if that's what you want go and play a 9 hole pitch and putt course!

All that would happen after fundamentally changing the sport is that people would be unhappy with a 3 hour round for 12/14 holes, nothing whatsoever achieved to address the issue of slow play, slow players would simply be playing slow for a shorter period of time.

Do away with the antiquated tradition of honour (other than in matchplay), on the tee, on the fairway and 90% of the time on the green, if you're ready first hit the ball!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2016)

Ready golf is the way to go 

We will be sending notices out to the membership that we would like them to play ready golf where ever possible 

Some of our older generation aren't happy with it


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## Capella (Apr 6, 2016)

For me the problem with slow play is not that it makes the overall round longer. I love beng on the golf course. I am totally happy to be on the course for 5 hrs if I have the time (which I usually do on a weekend). What makes slow rounds so annoying is that you cannot get into the flow of things, can't find your rythm. And that would be true for 14 holes in four hours just as much as it is for 18 holes in five.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2016)

woody69 said:



			I'd rather take 4-5 hours and play 18 holes than 2.5 hrs to play 12-14.

Why is everyone in such a rush?!
		
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This is my view too!

I've played in both Scotland and England - and other parts of the world too - and have always found that 'playing to the speed of the course' is the best way to enjoy even slow rounds - and there have been some horrors!

My only gripes have been either not knowing that a round is going to be slow or an actual slow (slower than the rest of 'the field') group in front who won't make way when they have lost a hole - and 'lost a hole' means more than simply 'out of position' (or 'not up the group in front's backsides!')!.


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ready golf is the way to go 

We will be sending notices out to the membership that we would like them to play ready golf where ever possible 

Some of our older generation aren't happy with it
		
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   i wish some of my pp`s would play ready golf ,there always seems to be a discussion as to whos turn it is .does my crust.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ready golf is the way to go 

We will be sending notices out to the membership that we would like them to play ready golf where ever possible 

Some of our older generation aren't happy with it
		
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Fully agree. That's what we play in our society we play ready golf. Specially off the tee. If the group ahead is say 270 yards away (approx) the group I was in the big hitters who can hit 300 plus held back and I went with my modest 200 yards and we went from there. Sped it up a bit. Same with putting. Whoever is ready


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## dufferman (Apr 6, 2016)

Capella said:



			For me the problem with slow play is not that it makes the overall round longer. I love beng on the golf course. I am totally happy to be on the course for 5 hrs if I have the time (which I usually do on a weekend). What makes slow rounds so annoying is that you cannot get into the flow of things, can't find your rythm. And that would be true for 14 holes in four hours just as much as it is for 18 holes in five.
		
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Again, hit the nail on the head. It's not the passing of time that makes a round slow, it's the constant waiting. I'm happy to play a tough course which is long (like I do on the yearly golf weekend away 8 or so of us do, or when we go off to Spain on holiday to play a few courses) for 5 hours, if we're actually playing for 5 hours! Not standing for 45 minutes waiting for tees / fairways / greens to clear!


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## pokerjoke (Apr 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ready golf is the way to go 

We will be sending notices out to the membership that we would like them to play ready golf where ever possible 

Some of our older generation aren't happy with it
		
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This is obviously dependant on what is the situation at the time.
Giving people the option to play ready golf is fine though.
Its no point playing ready golf if the group in front are still within range,ready golf is good when you need to catch up but not to the detriment where you start pushing the people in front as for me that's just as bad as slow play.
Our group played ready golf at Woburn and we played it on Sunday just so we kept the flow going as best we could.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2016)

when a mate and I played the brabazon the group in front were constantly complaining the marshall about the group in front of them saying its taken us X amount of time to get to here its going to take 7 hours to get round (which was rubbish) the marshal simply checked his sheets with their name and said nope your due through this section of the course at this time (which was the time he was on the tee. The man complaining then turned to us (we were waiting on the tee at the same time) and said "are you guys happy to take forever playing??" .. I dont think he liked my reply of "to be honest im just glad to be able to play such a fantastic course... enjoying every second" he continued to moan to the marshall who when he left just smiled at us and said "your right their are worst ways to spend a sunday afternoon" to which I replied "yeah you could be getting moaned at by a bunch of fair weather golfers" think he appreciated us not making his day worse


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## irip (Apr 6, 2016)

Is it just me who thought the worst part of this thread was that you was only allowed to play both days of the weekend because your missus was out and about and she let you.oo:

We need a whip cracking smiley.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			This is obviously dependant on what is the situation at the time.
Giving people the option to play ready golf is fine though.
Its no point playing ready golf if the group in front are still within range,ready golf is good when you need to catch up but not to the detriment where you start pushing the people in front as for me that's just as bad as slow play.
Our group played ready golf at Woburn and we played it on Sunday just so we kept the flow going as best we could.
		
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Defiantly need to judge the situation as you are playing


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2016)

5 hrs on a golf course waiting on shots being slow and held up is far more enjoyable then 1 hour at work!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2016)

3565 said:



			5 hrs on a golf course waiting on shots being slow and held up is far more enjoyable then 1 hour at work!
		
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But not as enjoyable as 4 hours playing golf being able to walk up to your ball and playing your shot without any waiting around and then walking to your ball and doing the same again. Being held up is not enjoyable in any shape or form


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2016)

3565 said:



			5 hrs on a golf course waiting on shots being slow and held up is far more enjoyable then 1 hour at work!
		
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I agree. I'm fortunate in that I don't have too many ties and HID is happy for me to spend as much time as I want playing and being at the club. Also we're fortunate that a slow round, even in a medal is usually no more than four hours (four and a half on a rare occurrence). I've no issues with that and normally never feels like you've been out there forever.

We tend to play ready golf in our roll ups and it does keep play moving. However not so keen in a comp. I've had occasions when a player, thinking he's helping, has played (technically out of turn) while I'm over the ball. Very distracting and I prefer to play in order (still no excuse for not being ready to play when it's your turn).


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 6, 2016)

Changing tack slightly I have recently discovered another cause of slow play. This is probably not news but it was something I hadn't realised before.

I bought an electric trolley and have used it instead of my push trolley for the last few rounds. There is no doubt that it slows me down walking between shots. I think it's part of the reason golf is slower nowadays than it was 20 or 30 years ago - nobody had electric trolleys back then but they are fairly ubiquitous now.


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. I'm fortunate in that I don't have too many ties and HID is happy for me to spend as much time as I want playing and being at the club. Also we're fortunate that a slow round, even in a medal is usually no more than four hours (four and a half on a rare occurrence). I've no issues with that and normally never feels like you've been out there forever.

We tend to play ready golf in our roll ups and it does keep play moving. However not so keen in a comp. I've had occasions when a player, thinking he's helping, has played (technically out of turn) while I'm over the ball. Very distracting and I prefer to play in order (still no excuse for not being ready to play when it's your turn).
		
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Agree with you Homer. It won't be long before we see 3-4 balls all flying into the green at the same time.......a bit extreme I know, but I still like the traditions of this great game. You start at 1st and end on 18th, and the time it takes is what it is. its out of my control in front or behind, but I can influence those I play with.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2016)

Agreed, electric trolleys whilst a god send defo slow down the play a tad. Carrying is the quickest for sure but last time I carried around a "proper course" (rather than a nice flat course) I had back ache for 3 days


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Changing tack slightly I have recently discovered another cause of slow play. This is probably not news but it was something I hadn't realised before.

I bought an electric trolley and have used it instead of my push trolley for the last few rounds. There is no doubt that it slows me down walking between shots. I think it's part of the reason golf is slower nowadays than it was 20 or 30 years ago - nobody had electric trolleys back then but they are fairly ubiquitous now.
		
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Trolleys do cause issues - especially when some people appear to be connected to them and take them right up their ball wherever it is. Also where people park them when putting out.

Would also add range finders etc - people zapping the flag over 200 yards when they can't reach or from 20 yards etc


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2016)

pauljames87 said:



			Agreed, electric trolleys whilst a god send defo slow down the play a tad. Carrying is the quickest for sure but last time I carried around a "proper course" (rather than a nice flat course) I had back ache for 3 days
		
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Not sure I entirely agree and seen lots of golfers leave their carry bags in some very bad positions which causes delays when leaving for the next tee. It's the same with trollies too though. Common sense (or better education) seems lacking at times and it's these little niggle that can add five to ten minutes to a round without any effort at all


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2016)

Electric trollies slow!!! 

Mine goes from 0-9, if I put it on 9 I'd be jogging behind it, so 7-8 is a good pace with mine and it sure goes a lot quicker then players carrying I know.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 6, 2016)

3565 said:



			Electric trollies slow!!! 

Mine goes from 0-9, if I put it on 9 I'd be jogging behind it, so 7-8 is a good pace with mine and it sure goes a lot quicker then players carrying I know.
		
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It's not that it goes slow when at top speed but it's slower in a lot of situations. Maybe I'll get slicker when I get the hang of it!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's not that it goes slow when at top speed but it's slower in a lot of situations. Maybe I'll get slicker when I get the hang of it!
		
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We'll have a Trolley race at Trump :whoo:


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We'll have a Trolley race at Trump :whoo:
		
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I've now got a picture of you all lining up in my head, the Chain in the background and all screeching off down the first. Needs to be done and videoed


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 6, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We'll have a Trolley race at Trump :whoo:
		
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Don't I can crash it even when not racing! I keep speeding it up when I want to slow down....


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## pokerjoke (Apr 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Changing tack slightly I have recently discovered another cause of slow play. This is probably not news but it was something I hadn't realised before.

I bought an electric trolley and have used it instead of my push trolley for the last few rounds. There is no doubt that it slows me down walking between shots. I think it's part of the reason golf is slower nowadays than it was 20 or 30 years ago - nobody had electric trolleys back then but they are fairly ubiquitous now.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Trolleys do cause issues - especially when some people appear to be connected to them and take them right up their ball wherever it is. Also where people park them when putting out.

Would also add range finders etc - people zapping the flag over 200 yards when they can't reach or from 20 yards etc
		
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We are clutching at straws now are we not.

Seriously if we think these couple of examples take an extra 5 minutes in the grand scale of slow play its time for you to find another sport.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 6, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			We are clutching at straws now are we not.

Seriously if we think these couple of examples take an extra 5 minutes in the grand scale of slow play *its time for you to find another sport.*

Click to expand...

Well I guess that's it for me then.   Electric trolley rather than push slows me down fairly significantly... and carrying is faster than pushing....

Didn't mean to upset anyone, just my observation after my first 4 or 5 rounds with the leccy trolley.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well I guess that's it for me then.   Electric trolley rather than push slows me down fairly significantly... and carrying is faster than pushing....

Didn't mean to upset anyone, just my observation after my first 4 or 5 rounds with the leccy trolley.
		
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By the end of Trump we'll be doing synchronised Trolley dancing


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## Crocodile JD (Apr 6, 2016)

I understand the OP's meaning to be nothing more than "If you can't beat em join em"
I'm sure by the way the post is written it is not meant to be advocating slow play and I sense they would much rather play at a better pace but sometimes you just have no way of beating it, I know.  I play at the Belfry and sometimes it can be an utter nightmare with golfers of "all abilities" and an "I've paid my money so I'll take as long as I want to " attitude. I empathise and feel that I understand the sentiment in the post


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We'll have a Trolley race at Trump :whoo:
		
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I best write to Adrian Newey and find out what front wings I need then..........


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2016)

3565 said:



			I best write to Adrian Newey and find out what front wings I need then..........
		
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Don't forget to sort a good pit crew for the mandatory wheel change


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## delc (Apr 6, 2016)

dufferman said:



			I played twice this weekend as the missus was out and about for the majority of the weekend. Lucky me.

Sat tee time was 9.30am - 2 ball.

Sun tee time 7.10am (3rd out) - 3 ball.

Both rounds were almost 5 hours. Hoebridge GC in Woking btw.

Saturday saw us play through a 4 ball on the 3rd hole. This meant we bumped into a 3 ball ahead, who weren't being played through another 3 ball, who weren't being played through by 2 4balls with buggies. Needless to say, come the back 9, my head, heart and anything else I might of had had left me.

Sunday, and here's the kicker, a 4 ball rocked up without a tee time and were let out in front of us. So our 7.10am became 7.20am. Fourball ahead had 2 buggies. Took almost 30 mins to play the 1st (par5). We asked to play through them on the 7th, and they sounded disgusted that I'd suggested it, even though they were a hole behind. By the time we got to the 10th, they caught up with the 4 ball on foot ahead. No letting through.

I was angry. I felt like a weekend of great weather and good course condition was wasted. Until we decided to take our time on the 16th hole.

We all walked to each others balls, no "ready golf". We all watched putts, chatted, looked for lost balls for a full 5 mins etc. The final 3 holes on Sunday were the best of the weekend. 

I know a lot of you might argue we were irresponsible to do this, as it will have only held up the people behind us further. But there has to be a point where you put your own enjoyment of the game in front of others. 

So the solution to slow play, is to play slow. Much much better golf, less waiting on shots (we waited on almost every shot all weekend), and generally not winding myself up about the rude / irresponsible / un-etiquetted(??) golfers on the course.

I actually left the course Sunday wishing that I didn't care about slow play as much as I do (I used to think it didn't bother me) and thinking that maybe next week I should play the whole round slow, so I get enjoyment out of my own game.
		
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Buggies do not speed up play despite the fact they can travel at up to 20 mph! If two players are sharing one buggy they can be really slow, especially if one is a slicer and the other one is a hooker, in which case you have to factor in a lot of of sideways travel!


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't forget to sort a good pit crew for the mandatory wheel change
		
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We could be onto something here. :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2016)

3565 said:



			We could be onto something here. :thup:
		
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Gokart v Motocaddy v Powakaddy, v Stewart v The field. Place your bets now


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ready golf is the way to go 

We will be sending notices out to the membership that we would like them to play ready golf where ever possible 

Some of our older generation aren't happy with it
		
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I absolutely HATE this solution!!

I don't doubt for one minute it works but it masks the symptom rather than curing it. Drop the 60sec Pre-Shot Routine you learned from watching the pros. Ask yourself just what are you learning from the 360* stalk of a putt.

At a previous club, I received a complaint about slow play. The following week I put my name down in the group immediately behind the alleged culprit. Between shots, fine. But his PSR averaged 2mins a hole longer than his PP's. That over 30mins longer a round. That's how easy it is to lose two holes on the group in front.

Someone going around in a four ball in less than 4 hours isn't sprinting, he's just doing the right things when he approaches the ball.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I absolutely HATE this solution!!

I don't doubt for one minute it works but it masks the symptom rather than curing it. Drop the 60sec Pre-Shot Routine you learned from watching the pros. Ask yourself just what are you learning from the 360* stalk of a putt.

At a previous club, I received a complaint about slow play. The following week I put my name down in the group immediately behind the alleged culprit. Between shots, fine. But his PSR averaged 2mins a hole longer than his PP's. That over 30mins longer a round. That's how easy it is to lose two holes on the group in front.

Someone going around in a four ball in less than 4 hours isn't sprinting, he's just doing the right things when he approaches the ball.
		
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The problem is a lot of pro's teach the importance of a good PSR routine - and then gets compounded by watching the Pro's do it


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## Smiffy (Apr 7, 2016)

Watching four players putting on the green, waiting until the first one putts before lining up_* their*_ putts, and then all eventually holing out and going to walk off the green before one of them remembers the flagstick and then has to walk back across the full length of the green to pick it up slows things down a bit.
I always thought that the first one to hole out picked up the flag ready to replace when the last one had putted was good etiquette and assisted in speedy play???


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Watching four players putting on the green, waiting until the first one putts before lining up_* their*_ putts, and then all eventually holing out and going to walk off the green before one of them remembers the flagstick and then has to walk back across the full length of the green to pick it up slows things down a bit.
I always thought that the first one to hole out picked up the flag ready to replace when the last one had putted was good etiquette and assisted in speedy play???
		
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We witnessed this a lot, amongst lots other things like bags left on the wrong side of the green, didn't we :mmm:


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## Smiffy (Apr 7, 2016)

Fish said:



			We witnessed this a lot, amongst lots other things like bags left on the wrong side of the green, didn't we :mmm:
		
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We did.


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## Capella (Apr 7, 2016)

There are many reasons for slow play. Every player has his or her own bad and good habits. There are slow walkers, there are talkers, there are wannabe-tour-pros with extensive pre-shot routines and there are the nervous ones who just can't pull the trigger (that's me, sometimes) The more crowded the course is, the more the bad habits will add up and slow everyone down. 

Saying everything over four hours is too slow is a bit too easy, though. Just do the math. Our course is officially about 6000 m long, but when I switch on the GPS watch, it tells me that I easily walk 9 to 10 km during a round (sorry for the metric measurements here). Even at a brisk pace, this is going to take up 100 to 110 min of pure walking time. Add let's say 30 sec per player per shot, including everything from setting your bag down over measuring distance to selecting a club, doing your pre-shot routine and hit your shot (which I don't think is too much) and assume a bogey golfer with 90 shots per round and you end up with 145 min for a single player, 190 min for a twoball, 235 min (so almost four hours) for a threeball and 280 min for a fourball. The best and pretty much only way to cut that down is to start preparing your shot while another player is playing his. Desireable but not always possible, depending on where your balls ended up.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

If a player insists on a PSR they can normally be doing it while the other player is hitting their shot without causing a disturbance at least 8/10 times. That way they should be ready to step in, take one look at target and go. Most insist on waiting for the PP's to hit, watch it stop and then think about even taking the club out the bag. 

I've no qualms about a round taking four and a half hours if no one dawdles and we keep moving. It's the stop start of those in front that grinds and adds the time. The problem is, even if politely point out that they left their bag miles away from the exit to the green on every hole etc, the problem wasn't their fault. Sadly I really can't see how the problem is ever going to change. It hasn't in the thirty plus years I've been playing


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If a player insists on a PSR they can normally be doing it while the other player is hitting their shot without causing a disturbance at least 8/10 times. That way they should be ready to step in, take one look at target and go. Most insist on waiting for the PP's to hit, watch it stop and then think about even taking the club out the bag. 

I've no qualms about a round taking four and a half hours if no one dawdles and we keep moving. It's the stop start of those in front that grinds and adds the time. The problem is, even if politely point out that they left their bag miles away from the exit to the green on every hole etc, the problem wasn't their fault. Sadly I really can't see how the problem is ever going to change. It hasn't in the thirty plus years I've been playing
		
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Not one second of elapsed time is saved whether you leave your bag at the point of exit or point of entry to a green


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## Capella (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			Not one second of elapsed time is saved whether you leave your bag at the point of exit or point of entry to a green
		
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Not for your own group, no. But it makes it possible for the group behind to go for the green earlier, if you leave it at the point of exit and don't have to zig-zag back in front of the green to get it. And I don't know about you, but I find waiting on the fairway to be able to finally hit my  approach shot way more disrupting than having to wait on the next tee (which is unlikely to happen anyway, because normally the whole process of approaching the green and putting takes longer than it takes the group in front to tee off and get going on the next hole).


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			Not one second of elapsed time is saved whether you leave your bag at the point of exit or point of entry to a green
		
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But plenty when you watch a guy walk all the way back across to the green side bunker, pick it up, walk back across the green again, stop to mark the score and then wander off. Happens all too often


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

Capella said:



			Not for your own group, no. But it makes it possible for the group behind to go for the green earlier, if you leave it at the point of exit and don't have to zig-zag back in front of the green to get it. And I don't know about you, but I find waiting on the fairway to be able to finally hit my  approach shot way more disrupting than having to wait on the next tee (which is unlikely to happen anyway, because normally the whole process of approaching the green and putting takes longer than it takes the group in front to tee off and get going on the next hole).
		
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You right of course you can move the 'waiting time' from one part of the course to another (& you prefer the teebox) but it is not a cause of slow play as the overall time remains the same  

Leaving your bag in any other place not on the line between point of entry & point of exit will cause a delay to play (I guess this is what Homer saw) but I rarely see this happen. Its either at the entry or exit, both are fine in terms of pace


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## robert.redmile (Apr 7, 2016)

How about having to sign out when you start your round, and sign in when finished?
agree standard times for 2 ball, 3 ball, 4 ball etc.
educate the offenders who consistently go over time, and for those who don't improve start to penalise them.


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But plenty when you watch a guy walk all the way back across to the green side bunker, pick it up, walk back across the green again, stop to mark the score and then wander off. Happens all too often
		
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See above posted at same time

I've seen it in the wrong place on rare occasions where point of entry changes last minute due to a duff chip shot or shank etc but its not the norm and the few seconds additional on the infrequent cases is not whats causing 5 hour rounds


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## Capella (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			You right of course you can move the 'waiting time' from one part of the course to another (& you prefer the teebox)
		
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But it is not just about preferring the teebox for waiting. Playing their shots on and around the green will almost always take a group longer than teeing off, so it is not just about where you have to wait, it means less waiting time. The earlier the following group can get to the green, the more compact the field will stay as a whole. If you are the only group out on the course, then it makes no difference if you place your bags at the entry or exit of the green. When the course is busy and several groups maneuver about it in close progression, it does make a difference, because it allows the groups to move forward at a more steady pace.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

robert.redmile said:



			How about having to sign out when you start your round, and sign in when finished?
agree standard times for 2 ball, 3 ball, 4 ball etc.
educate the offenders who consistently go over time, and for those who don't improve start to penalise them.
		
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That's our next stage - sign in when you finish 

Should form a pattern


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## patricks148 (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			You right of course you can move the 'waiting time' from one part of the course to another (& you prefer the teebox) but it is not a cause of slow play as the overall time remains the same  

Leaving your bag in any other place not on the line between point of entry & point of exit will cause a delay to play (I guess this is what Homer saw) but I rarely see this happen. Its either at the entry or exit, both are fine in terms of pace
		
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what about;

one of your playing partners has left their bag the wrong side of the green, they had the low score on the hole so its them to tee off first. but they are not ready to because they had to trump all the way over to get their bag, while the rest of the group are standing on the tee waiting for them.

how is this example not causing a delay in play to both in the group and behind?


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## garyinderry (Apr 7, 2016)

If someone starts marking their card in front of the green shout move or a quick whistle. 

Mention to them next chance you get. It should only happen once and not the sole cause of 5 hour rounds. 

I actually find it a rare occurrence these days.


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## Capella (Apr 7, 2016)

I really want to write a software now that simulates the flow on a golf course. I wonder if that has ever been done. I will think about this some more and maybe give it a try.


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

Capella said:



			But it is not just about preferring the teebox for waiting. Playing their shots on and around the green will almost always take a group longer than teeing off, so it is not just about where you have to wait, it means less waiting time. The earlier the following group can get to the green, the more compact the field will stay as a whole. If you are the only group out on the course, then it makes no difference if you place your bags at the entry or exit of the green. When the course is busy and several groups maneuver about it in close progression, it does make a difference, because it allows the groups to move forward at a more steady pace.
		
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Yes as a means of maintaining how much the field is condensed (and potentially increasing capacity) it works, but doesn't work as a means of reducing the round time

But do you really want the field condensed to the maximum at all times? The club does so it can shorten spacing on the 1st tee but in the real world it simply means there is zero expansion room and the slightest delay/brief ball search etc from any player or group anywhere on the course ahead invokes 'waiting time' for several groups behind rather than the steady pace we all want


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			what about;

one of your playing partners has left their bag the wrong side of the green, they had the low score on the hole so its them to tee off first. but they are not ready to because they had to trump all the way over to get their bag, while the rest of the group are standing on the tee waiting for them.

how is this example not causing a delay in play to both in the group and behind?
		
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The exception that proves the rule 

But yeah you're right there will be the odd 'what if' anomalies like that if you play honour off the tee (remember they would also have to be last to putt as well for this to be true otherwise they should already be retrieving their bag) but again its not adding 30/60 minutes to a round 

Just frustrating when its voiced as a primary reason of slow play


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			The exception that proves the rule 

But yeah you're right there will be the odd 'what if' anomalies like that if you play honour off the tee (remember they would also have to be last to putt as well for this to be true otherwise they should already be retrieving their bag) but again its not adding 30/60 minutes to a round 

Just frustrating when its voiced as a primary reason of slow play
		
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It's not an exception though it's a regular occurence coupled with people not teeing off because it's not his "honour" despite the person whose "honour" it is being 100 yards behind still filling in the scorecard whilst walking 

There is a reason why it's included in the R&A guidelines - because it's a common occurrence that does impact on the pace of play


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## patricks148 (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			The exception that proves the rule 

But yeah you're right there will be the odd 'what if' anomalies like that if you play honour off the tee (remember they would also have to be last to putt as well for this to be true otherwise they should already be retrieving their bag) but again its not adding 30/60 minutes to a round 

Just frustrating when its voiced as a primary reason of slow play
		
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not necessarily last to putt and who walks of to get there bag if the others are still playing?? i see this type of behavior all the time, it might not cause the round to take an hour longer as you suggest but it certainly leads to losing ground on the group in front so gaps appearing in the field.


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

robert.redmile said:



			How about having to sign out when you start your round, and sign in when finished?
agree standard times for 2 ball, 3 ball, 4 ball etc.
educate the offenders who consistently go over time, and for those who don't improve start to penalise them.
		
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why not get the time and motion lot in, they'll sort it, have a clocking system after 6 holes, and if your over the allotted time you get disciplined in front of the committee............ Hang on it sounds like a working environment.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not an exception though it's a regular occurence coupled with people not teeing off because it's not his "honour" despite the person whose "honour" it is being 100 yards behind still filling in the scorecard whilst walking 

There is a reason why it's included in the R&A guidelines - because it's a common occurrence that does impact on the pace of play
		
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100 yards behind 
Blinkin heck Phil whats with all the exaggerating to make a point bigger than it is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			100 yards behind 
Blinkin heck Phil whats with all the exaggerating to make a point bigger than it is.
		
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Not exaggerating - seen it plenty of times both at my course and others


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

robert.redmile said:



			How about having to sign out when you start your round, and sign in when finished?
agree standard times for 2 ball, 3 ball, 4 ball etc.
educate the offenders who consistently go over time, and for those who don't improve start to penalise them.
		
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The trouble with this idea is you will just get people blaming each other.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

3565 said:



			why not get the time and motion lot in, they'll sort it, have a clocking system after 6 holes, and if your over the allotted time you get disciplined in front of the committee............ Hang on it sounds like a working environment.
		
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Don't the pros not have to play to specific time and if they are seen to be breaching that then they suffer shot penalties ? Why can't there be some sort of penalty in the Amatuer game


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			not necessarily last to putt and who walks of to get there bag if the others are still playing?? i see this type of behavior all the time, it might not cause the round to take an hour longer as you suggest but it certainly leads to losing ground on the group in front so gaps appearing in the field.
		
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How far away are these bags! I assumed they are greenside and I think anyone who has putted out should be doing something to speed up moving to the next tee while others are lining up, faffing with the line on their ball etc (obviously without being a distraction to others) Whether that's going towards retrieving your PW or bag or the flag if you're first out, ready golf isn't just being ready to take a shot

If they're just gawping at 2-3 others putting before making a move isn't that as impactfull as a bag in the wrong place


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not exaggerating - seen it plenty of times both at my course and others
		
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This would happen on the very rare occasion that a tee is a 100 yards from the previous green,then the other 3 players would have to walk to the tee before the other player has left the green.

We all know there are a hundred reasons for slow play and once again all the reasons are being posted but as has been mentioned a few times it will never change to the extent all good things happen on a golf course.

The key for me is keep up with the group in front without putting undue pressure on them and give yourself plenty of time to play a round.

I have played many times with players that moan about slow play generally because they are having a bad round and would rather be off the course and be somewhere else even if its back in the clubhouse having a cup of tea[so nowhere important] but cant help blame others for their crap play[blaming slow play].


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not an exception though it's a regular occurence coupled with people not teeing off because it's not his "honour" despite the person whose "honour" it is being 100 yards behind still filling in the scorecard whilst walking 

There is a reason why it's included in the R&A guidelines - because it's a common occurrence that does impact on the pace of play
		
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100 yards behind! Honest to god I play a lot at resort courses and I don't see this

Some of you are at good standard members courses and the behaviours described on slow play threads seem dreadful in some cases


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			100 yards behind! Honest to god I play a lot at resort courses and I don't see this

Some of you are at good standard members courses and the behaviours described on slow play threads seem dreadful in some cases
		
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Yes the behaviour is dreadful - it is the minority but it impacts on the whole field on the day. We do have a couple of long walks inbetween tees and the actions between those holes does have an impact on the pace of play. 

Consideration and common sense will be a big help in keeping the pace of play going on a course. Golf Monthly plus other magazines have started campaigns on pace of play as have the R&A - the reason why - because it's something that impacts on people's enjoyment of the game to the point some don't bother playing or even starting the game. A game of golf is a long time as it is without it being extended because others dont have consideration of other people on the course. 

We can try something to encourage people to be more considerate whilst playing or we can just dismiss it and ignore it and watch it get worse. I know which I prefer


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## chrisd (Apr 7, 2016)

Despite all that's spouted on here I have about one round in a dozen where the play is a little on the slow side.  Generally a 4bbb, or 3 player stroke play comp is just short of 4 hours, I'm happy with that and I rarely, if ever, seen a game last more than 4 and a half hours

Woburn was, as I expected, a really slow couple of rounds and I fully expected that. Had the weather been better I'd have happily spent the time in idyllic surroundings.


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

Do the Pros suffer from penalties? Think not somehow, and they are all still going round in 5hrs. You talk about amateurs copying the Pros with PSRs, 360* stalking, throwing grass up, visualising, until the governing bodies sort it out at the top and quicken them up your still going to have the same problem and it won't filter down to us. 
How can you decifer who is to blame in a 3 ball medal for slow play? The 3hc or the 13, or 24hc? 
That was the group I was in last week and we lost 2 holes to the group in front, but we didn't hold up the group behind nor was they waiting at any point during the round. Now theirs talk about anomalies and there is in this case when you got 3 differing catorgories playing together (my group) and the group in front are all Cat 1 players. Now i will let you decifer why we lost 2 holes and it doesn't take a genius to work it out. So penalising the group I was in would be harsh as it was a drawn comp which is controlled by the committee. Surely your not expecting 3 differing cats to keep up with a group from the same and better cat to keep up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

3565 said:



			Do the Pros suffer from penalties? Think not somehow, and they are all still going round in 5hrs. You talk about amateurs copying the Pros with PSRs, 360* stalking, throwing grass up, visualising, until the governing bodies sort it out at the top and quicken them up your still going to have the same problem and it won't filter down to us. 
How can you decifer who is to blame in a 3 ball medal for slow play? The 3hc or the 13, or 24hc? 
That was the group I was in last week and we lost 2 holes to the group in front, but we didn't hold up the group behind nor was they waiting at any point during the round. Now theirs talk about anomalies and there is in this case when you got 3 differing catorgories playing together (my group) and the group in front are all Cat 1 players. Now i will let you decifer why we lost 2 holes and it doesn't take a genius to work it out. So penalising the group I was in would be harsh as it was a drawn comp which is controlled by the committee. Surely your not expecting 3 differing cats to keep up with a group from the same and better cat to keep up?
		
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So just do nothing then because the PGA do nothing ? Ignore everything and just let people play at what pace they want to play. 

Do you have an ideas to help the pace of play to ensure as many enjoy their day as possible or just happy to keep on dismissing any ideas put forward


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

Apart from the obvious normal duties as it were to speed up things up, bags left at the exit point, marking cards off the green, be prepared when it's your turn, limit your PSRs etc.... Give me something radical that will increase the speed and enjoyment for all? 

I asked you a question about a scenario that happened yet you choose to ignore it and just want to, like you normally do is belittle people with your high n mighty agenda on slow play.


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## chrisd (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you have an ideas to help the pace of play to ensure as many enjoy their day as possible
		
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If you've 18 groups of people on a course,their enjoyment of a round may well be vastly different. Some want to wander round, enjoy the course, enjoy the golf and others want to go round as quickly as possible and get home or to the bar - nothing wrong with either, but not everyone get their enjoyment the same way!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

3565 said:



			Apart from the obvious normal duties as it were to speed up things up, bags left at the exit point, marking cards off the green, be prepared when it's your turn, limit your PSRs etc.... Give me something radical that will increase the speed and enjoyment for all? 

I asked you a question about a scenario that happened yet you choose to ignore it and just want to, like you normally do is belittle people with your high n mighty agenda on slow play.
		
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Where did I belittle anyone ? 

Lots of people have posted ideas about how to improve pace of play and there are lots of other ideas out there

It doesn't need to be "radical" - it just needs people to be aware and considerate - all the little things mentioned on here add up to help the pace of play.

You lost two holes when playing - why ? I wouldn't know because I didn't watch you play and I don't always believe it's linked to the HC of the players because we have all see low HC players take too long and high HC players take too long - it's not their HC that makes them play slow , it's their lack of understanding or condsideration of others on the course. If you are not holding anyone up - then there is no issue - if your actions have a queue of groups behind you then realise that and attempt to rectify the issue. It's awareness and consideration.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

chrisd said:



			If you've 18 groups of people on a course,their enjoyment of a round may well be vastly different. Some want to wander round, enjoy the course, enjoy the golf and others want to go round as quickly as possible and get home or to the bar - nothing wrong with either, but not everyone get their enjoyment the same way!
		
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But what happens if your wandering around just enjoying the course enjoying yourself impacts on the people behind you and is holding them up - do you let them through and then you both continue to enjoy yourself or do you just concentrate on your own enjoyment and don't worry about the people behind you being impacted ?


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## chrisd (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But what happens if your wandering around just enjoying the course enjoying yourself impacts on the people behind you and is holding them up - do you let them through and then you both continue to enjoy yourself or do you just concentrate on your own enjoyment and don't worry about the people behind you being impacted ?
		
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I guess that 18 different groups filling up the course will all have their own answer - I wasn't talking about my own golf in the post.


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## patricks148 (Apr 7, 2016)

Its only a minority spoiling it for the rest where slow play in concerned. 

One of the main problems is the slow ones don't Know or think they are slow. I know half a dozen guys at my club who are the worst offenders when it comes to slow play and none of them think they are slow.



Course marshals is the main one that would make a difference at my club.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Phil i'm really interested in your ideas for helping with slow play wether world wide or on your course because for some slow play is a reason they dislike golf or don't play because it takes too long.

Most peoples problems like bags the wrong side of the green or PSR or marking cards on greens would actually only save minutes on a round which in all honesty makes little difference,no difference to a group going a whole round without needing to look for a ball to a group that's spends 5 minutes looking for one.

To me it would have to be the bigger picture where rounds are taking 4 1/2 to 5 hours instead of the 4 hours they should be taking.

I have played a few 5 hours round which I have actually enjoyed and a couple where its been so slow you stand there pulling your hair out.

One example was in a 4bbb comp and the problem was purely down to a backlog on a hole where it was too dangerous to tee off because the next tee was to close to the green,that obviously is poor course design.
The same as when you get tee's to close to greens where you have to wait for each other to play,these 2 scenario's will slow a whole course down a way sight more than any of the previous I mentioned so its not always the obvious one's that people think it is.

The only thing you can do is pass on your extensive knowledge to your playing partners and your club members and hope they adhere to basic rules of etiquette to keep things moving the best they can and then its up to people who see stuff on the course that could have an effect to educate others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I guess that 18 different groups filling up the course will all have their own answer - I wasn't talking about my own golf in the post.
		
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So isn't the answer to what you posted - everyone needs to be aware of other people on the course and ensure their actions don't cause a negative impact on others and the rest of the field ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			Its only a minority spoiling it for the rest where slow play in concerned. 

One of the main problems is the slow ones don't Know or think they are slow. I know half a dozen guys at my club who are the worst offenders when it comes to slow play and none of them think they are slow.



Course marshals is the main one that would make a difference at my club.
		
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Exactly. It's always someone else to blame and that's never going to change. Course marshals seem limited use, certainly the ones I've seen


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Phil i'm really interested in your ideas for helping with slow play wether world wide or on your course because for some slow play is a reason they dislike golf or don't play because it takes too long.

Most peoples problems like bags the wrong side of the green or PSR or marking cards on greens would actually only save minutes on a round which in all honesty makes little difference,no difference to a group going a whole round without needing to look for a ball to a group that's spends 5 minutes looking for one.

To me it would have to be the bigger picture where rounds are taking 4 1/2 to 5 hours instead of the 4 hours they should be taking.

I have played a few 5 hours round which I have actually enjoyed and a couple where its been so slow you stand there pulling your hair out.

One example was in a 4bbb comp and the problem was purely down to a backlog on a hole where it was too dangerous to tee off because the next tee was to close to the green,that obviously is poor course design.
The same as when you get tee's to close to greens where you have to wait for each other to play,these 2 scenario's will slow a whole course down a way sight more than any of the previous I mentioned so its not always the obvious one's that people think it is.

The only thing you can do is pass on your extensive knowledge to your playing partners and your club members and hope they adhere to basic rules of etiquette to keep things moving the best they can and then its up to people who see stuff on the course that could have an effect to educate others.
		
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This sums it up exactly for me - responsibility not just on the player as well

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Etiquette/Pace-of-Play


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This sums it up exactly for me - responsibility not just on the player as well

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Etiquette/Pace-of-Play

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Good link because this really is the bigger picture.

It really is quite easy to blame what you see right in front of you as apposed to things you cant see that are actually having a bigger effect on the whole course.
The course set up on the day also can have a massive effect on the whole round like high rough or extremely tough pin positions and it really comes down to everybody doing a good job to make the course playable from the greenkeepers upwards.

A tough course can easily be set up for a 4 hour round and made into a 5 hour course quite simply and often is for big open comps or a big medal comp.


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## Whereditgo (Apr 7, 2016)

Strangely (to me anyway) the 3 most often quoted causes of slow I rarely see on the course:

1 - Marking cards on the green.....almost never see anyone marking a card on the green after all the group have completed the hole.

2 - Bags left on the wrong side of the green......yes it happens, but rarely and even when it does its usually once a round when someone isn't thinking ahead.

3 - Handicaps.......from my experiences, handicap (complete beginners aside) has no bearing whatsoever on slow play, low handicappers can be slow, medium handicappers can be slow and so can high handicappers.

I do tend to agree with the OP, in that when the course is full and moving slowly it's better for ones own state of mind to accept it and play to the pace of the course, that's how I read the OP, not that he was accepting or even condoning slow play, just that on a given day there is not a lot one single group can do to change the situation.

I've played a fair bit of golf abroad with numerous nationality's and strangely the Brits seem to have a reputation (rightly or wrongly) amongst others for wanting to race round in the shortest time possible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Good link because this really is the bigger picture.

It really is quite easy to blame what you see right in front of you as apposed to things you cant see that are actually having a bigger effect on the whole course.
The course set up on the day also can have a massive effect on the whole round like high rough or extremely tough pin positions and it really comes down to everybody doing a good job to make the course playable from the greenkeepers upwards.

A tough course can easily be set up for a 4 hour round and made into a 5 hour course quite simply and often is for big open comps or a big medal comp.
		
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It is a good link and it's something our GK and Golf Director are aware off and myself as Comps guy in regards the setting up and the timings 

The length of time to play isn't IMO the issue - a five hour round is no issue - it's what happens when it should be a 4 hour round but is a 5 hour round because one or two groups early in the comp play slowly - don't keep up with the group in front and that then filters through the field and impacts everyone


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

Whereditgo said:



			Strangely (to me anyway) the 3 most often quoted causes of slow I rarely see on the course:

1 - Marking cards on the green.....almost never see anyone marking a card on the green after all the group have completed the hole.

2 - Bags left on the wrong side of the green......yes it happens, but rarely and even when it does its usually once a round when someone isn't thinking ahead.

3 - Handicaps.......from my experiences, handicap (complete beginners aside) has no bearing whatsoever on slow play, low handicappers can be slow, medium handicappers can be slow and so can high handicappers.

I do tend to agree with the OP, in that when the course is full and moving slowly it's better for ones own state of mind to accept it and play to the pace of the course, that's how I read the OP, not that he was accepting or even condoning slow play, just that on a given day there is not a lot one single group can do to change the situation.

*I've played a fair bit of golf abroad with numerous nationality's and strangely the Brits seem to have a reputation (rightly or wrongly) amongst others for wanting to race round in the shortest time possible*.
		
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Which was backed up last year when a magazine published a survey which said that the UK players are the fastest going round a golf course in Europe if not the world?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This sums it up exactly for me - responsibility not just on the player as well

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Etiquette/Pace-of-Play

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But how many know it's there, how many will read it and how many will change their behaviour accordingly. Very few I reckon


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But how many know it's there, how many will read it and how many will change their behaviour accordingly. Very few I reckon
		
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Well now 100's can read it because the link has been put up,so now its up to people to pass on there new found knowledge to playing partners who then can pass it on to others they play with.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Well now 100's can read it because the link has been put up,so now its up to people to pass on there new found knowledge to playing partners who then can pass it on to others they play with.
		
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Every single one of our members will be emailed a link to it and we are also printing out various copies as well as the Pro emailing weekly tips and updates. 

The link was sent by R&A to every club with them requested to pass onto their members and also committees. 

We have attached it to a letter explaining the reasons why


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Well now 100's can read it because the link has been put up,so now its up to people to pass on there new found knowledge to playing partners who then can pass it on to others they play with.
		
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Granted more have the opportunity to see it but sadly I still think 90% of those that are regularly guilty of slow play still won't admit there's a problem with what they do and won't amend their behaviour in any way

You can send this out to all members etc but most are so dyed in the wool they are never going to change


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every single one of our members will be emailed a link to it and we are also printing out various copies as well as the Pro emailing weekly tips and updates. 

The link was sent by R&A to every club with them requested to pass onto their members and also committees. 

We have attached it to a letter explaining the reasons why
		
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You're right to try everything to get them to read it

Word of caution though, you'd be surprised at the low open rate of some emails so make sure it has a title that'll help them decide to open it
If budget allows then print it in a4 and post to members too (also in a4 envelope) is the right size not to be ignored when it arrives on the doormat. Everyone opens a4 sized post. 

If post cost too high stick printed summary copies into every locker and stick small printed versions into everyone meal bill or on back on menu's for a few weeks (maybe make it into a quiz/game that they can then leave entries on the bar with a box of balls up for grabs etc)

hope it works


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Slab said:



			You're right to try everything to get them to read it

Word of caution though, you'd be surprised at the low open rate of some emails so make sure it has a title that'll help them decide to open it
If budget allows then print it in a4 and post to members too (also in a4 envelope) is the right size not to be ignored when it arrives on the doormat. Everyone opens a4 sized post. 

If post cost too high stick printed summary copies into every locker and stick small printed versions into everyone meal bill or on back on menu's for a few weeks (maybe make it into a quiz/game that they can then leave entries on the bar with a box of balls up for grabs etc)

hope it works
		
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All being done

It's one area our club lacked until recently - the ability to communicate well with its members but the Golf Director and new office staff have it nailed down now - communication is key to having a good club run well


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Granted more have the opportunity to see it but sadly I still think 90% of those that are regularly guilty of slow play still won't admit there's a problem with what they do and won't amend their behaviour in any way

You can send this out to all members etc but most are so dyed in the wool they are never going to change
		
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I get what your saying but if everyone thought that people would not change then no-one would send out anything.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I get what your saying but if everyone thought that people would not change then no-one would send out anything.
		
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Sadly the problem seems as prevalent today as it did decades ago so I think there is an inherent issue, a definite mindset in the majority of club members, and no viable solution to educate or break this entrenched thinking that the problem isn't them. No issue (and respect to) with anyone trying to make a change but it seems they are flogging a dead horse. Members refuse to accept they are the issue, and blame everyone else and so the cycle continues.


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## dufferman (Apr 7, 2016)

It's all well and good sending out to members, for those of you on a private members course. The rest of us who play on courses open to the public have no hope. Maybe we should have compulsory basic training for all potential golfers, which is of course certified, to get the path of play moving.


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## Capella (Apr 7, 2016)

dufferman said:



			It's all well and good sending out to members, for those of you on a private members course. The rest of us who play on courses open to the public have no hope. Maybe we should have compulsory basic training for all potential golfers, which is of course certified, to get the path of play moving.
		
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That's how it's done in Germany. Does it help? I don't know ... I doubt we are internationally known for our pace of play :whoo:But at least no one can say he or she did not know better.


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## Midnight (Apr 7, 2016)

Phil,
Just had a look at that link, some good common sense stuff in it.

Out of interest you mentioned earlier about having groups signing in and out for round times ( if I got it wrong I do apologise), how/who would govern this and what would the penalties be ?

Again not knocking the idea as I ain't got a clue what could be bought in to solve/address the issue.

Cheers mate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Midnight said:



			Phil,
Just had a look at that link, some good common sense stuff in it.

Out of interest you mentioned earlier about having groups signing in and out for round times ( if I got it wrong I do apologise), how/who would govern this and what would the penalties be ?

Again not knocking the idea as I ain't got a clue what could be bought in to solve/address the issue.

Cheers mate.
		
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People already have the tee time on their card when they pick it up 

Then when someone finishes they pop into the pro shop and let them know they are finished and the pro notes the time down

When im closing the comp i will then look at the timings and see if there are any obvious clear gaps - a group coming in 30 mins behind another or even more for example.

Over the months you will see if their is any pattern forming with specific offenders and then look to tackle it - first ask them the reasons why - if the reasons arent acceptable then sanctions would be applied - warnings etc 

We have already given 3 people a warning after they were found to have lost 45 mins - 4 holes on the group in front and were holding up the entire field behind them


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People already have the tee time on their card when they pick it up 

Then when someone finishes they pop into the pro shop and let them know they are finished and the pro notes the time down

When im closing the comp i will then look at the timings and see if there are any obvious clear gaps - a group coming in 30 mins behind another or even more for example.

Over the months you will see if their is any pattern forming with specific offenders and then look to tackle it - first ask them the reasons why - if the reasons arent acceptable then sanctions would be applied - warnings etc 

We have already given 3 people a warning after they were found to have lost 45 mins - 4 holes on the group in front and were holding up the entire field behind them
		
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All well and good issuing warnings based I the timings from the computer but no mention of exploring extenuating circumstances or given the culprits a chance to explain. Seems a tad big brother and somewhat heavy handed


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## Whereditgo (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People already have the tee time on their card when they pick it up 

Then when someone finishes they pop into the pro shop and let them know they are finished and the pro notes the time down

When im closing the comp i will then look at the timings and see if there are any obvious clear gaps - a group coming in 30 mins behind another or even more for example.

Over the months you will see if their is any pattern forming with specific offenders and then look to tackle it - *first ask them the reasons why - if the reasons arent acceptable then sanctions would be applied* - warnings etc 

We have already given 3 people a warning after they were found to have lost 45 mins - 4 holes on the group in front and were holding up the entire field behind them
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			All well and good issuing warnings based I the timings from the computer but no mention of exploring extenuating circumstances or given the culprits a chance to explain. Seems a tad big brother and somewhat heavy handed
		
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Really?


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All well and good issuing warnings based I the timings from the computer but no mention of exploring extenuating circumstances or given the culprits a chance to explain. Seems a tad big brother and somewhat heavy handed
		
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Isn't it pretty safe to assume that the offenders didn't just get warnings without any investigation taking place, why would you think otherwise


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All well and good issuing warnings based I the timings from the computer but no mention of exploring extenuating circumstances or given the culprits a chance to explain. Seems a tad big brother and somewhat heavy handed
		
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Yes there is you just failed to read it properly.
Phil clearly states[first ask them the reasons why].

I must admit over the last few weeks though Phil you have mentioned a few problems at your course,seems like a course to stay away from until they are sorted.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Yes there is you just failed to read it properly.
Phil clearly states[first ask them the reasons why].

I must admit over the last few weeks though Phil you have mentioned a few problems at your course,seems like a course to stay away from until they are sorted.
		
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Not really - dont think it would be any different at most courses. We have had an influx of members over the past 12 months and the weekends and comps has made the course very busy at times with only small incidents causing issues. Being on committee and especially comps i get to hear every whinge and gripe from people.


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## Green Man (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm glad I don't play at some of the courses mentioned by posters on here. We were complaining about how slow our comp was on Sunday. Seemed to be waiting on every shot and all the groups around us asking what the hold up was. We finished in 3h 40m for a 3 ball. 

I would say on average a normal 3 ball in a comp takes 3h15 to 3h 30. This is for a Par 70 6300 yard course.

I think the best way to combat slow play is to have constant reminders around the course. Target times printed on the card for a 2,3,4 ball and little signs on tee boxes stating how long you should have been playing to reach this point as well as marshall's going around telling people to catch up to the game in front.


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## Midnight (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People already have the tee time on their card when they pick it up 

Then when someone finishes they pop into the pro shop and let them know they are finished and the pro notes the time down

When im closing the comp i will then look at the timings and see if there are any obvious clear gaps - a group coming in 30 mins behind another or even more for example.

Over the months you will see if their is any pattern forming with specific offenders and then look to tackle it - first ask them the reasons why - if the reasons arent acceptable then sanctions would be applied - warnings etc 

We have already given 3 people a warning after they were found to have lost 45 mins - 4 holes on the group in front and were holding up the entire field behind them
		
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Cheers for explaining the process mate. Have you found that since the warnings or explaining it to the people, that it has made a difference? Or is it too soon to say yet ?

Sorry to keep picking on you but without going thru every post , you seem to be the person that is at  club that has attempted to try and make the issue less.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Midnight said:



			Cheers for explaining the process mate. Have you found that since the warnings or explaining it to the people, that it has made a difference? Or is it too soon to say yet ?

Sorry to keep picking on you but without going thru every post , you seem to be the person that is at  club that has attempted to try and make the issue less.
		
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The timings havent started yet - it will be the next stage after communicating out the R&A guidelines.

The three that have been warning where from two comps where they clearly lost multiple holes and lots of reports of slow play about the three. The first warning was just a general "please make yourself aware of these guidelines" and why they are been given the warning.

If things don't improve over the next month or so then the timings will be implemented. I'm hoping the threat will enough for people to consider the pace they play at.


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## dufferman (Apr 7, 2016)

Green Man said:



			I'm glad I don't play at some of the courses mentioned by posters on here. We were complaining about how slow our comp was on Sunday. Seemed to be waiting on every shot and all the groups around us asking what the hold up was. We finished in 3h 40m for a 3 ball. 

I would say on average a normal 3 ball in a comp takes 3h15 to 3h 30. This is for a Par 70 6300 yard course.

I think the best way to combat slow play is to have constant reminders around the course. Target times printed on the card for a 2,3,4 ball and little signs on tee boxes stating how long you should have been playing to reach this point as well as marshall's going around telling people to catch up to the game in front.
		
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You say constant reminders, but they do nothing. We have a board on the 7th & 13th with times it should have taken, and often we just laugh at it. If some idiot who doesn't care for anyone else on the course sees he's / she's 45 mins behind the suggested pace, are they REALLY going to pick up pace? We also have boards on the 7th & 11th holes to ring the bell once fairway is clear, I can't tell you the amount of times we've waited 10 mins just to see the group appear on the next tee without ringing the bell. 

People are idiots. The solution needs to be more than a polite reminder which everyone can ignore.


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## GB72 (Apr 7, 2016)

That to me is the main problem, polite reminders do not work. At my place the worst offenders are all very much part of the establishment and treat the course like they own it. They know what they are doing, you can tell that from the odd dash to the next tee when the group behind is getting into range to ask to play through. Trouble is that the club will do nothing, hell some of the offenders are those that you would ask to take action against someone else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

GB72 said:



			That to me is the main problem, polite reminders do not work. At my place the worst offenders are all very much part of the establishment and treat the course like they own it. They know what they are doing, you can tell that from the odd dash to the next tee when the group behind is getting into range to ask to play through. Trouble is that the club will do nothing, hell some of the offenders are those that you would ask to take action against someone else.
		
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Our first step last year was putting the timings on each hole on the card - the membership was told it was the timings for a 3 ball medal or 4BBB or 4 ball social - it has made a few improvements. Think any club needs to go down the polite method first and then it's using a hammer and sanctions. People know they will come soon


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

Sorry to LP as viewing on phone between interviews. However moving on from that and assuming once members get reported, what happens over and above the polite warning given?

Surely the club run the risk of potentially alienating these members, and others if the process continues, and will the point come when they will leave? Can any club really afford to be upsetting the membership to that degree. I'm sure this is worse case scenario but what if they stop playing comes. At the end of the day we all pay reasonable chunks of money on a social activity and this seems to me at least, a way of making the whole thing less enjoyable 

If there is really that big a problem with slow play at the club, I think the whole thing needs looking at rather than singling out individuals


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our first step last year was putting the timings on each hole on the card - the membership was told it was the timings for a 3 ball medal or 4BBB or 4 ball social - it has made a few improvements. Think any club needs to go down the polite method first and then it's using a hammer and sanctions. People know they will come soon
		
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Are you saying each hole had a time to complete I-e 10 minutes?


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry to LP as viewing on phone between interviews. However moving on from that and assuming once members get reported, what happens over and above the polite warning given?

Surely the club run the risk of potentially alienating these members, and others if the process continues, and will the point come when they will leave? Can any club really afford to be upsetting the membership to that degree. I'm sure this is worse case scenario but what if they stop playing comes. At the end of the day we all pay reasonable chunks of money on a social activity and this seems to me at least, a way of making the whole thing less enjoyable 

If there is really that big a problem with slow play at the club, I think the whole thing needs looking at rather than singling out individuals
		
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Once again you failed to read the post correctly it clearly says the whole field timings are looked at and then re-peat offenders are approached where they are asked why its happening.
Concentrate on your interviews and have a bit of respect for the candidates


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Are you saying each hole had a time to complete I-e 10 minutes?
		
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On the card it has the time you are expected to have finished that hole totally 4 hours for each round and it includes the walking in between. So as an example after 12 holes it says 2:45 next to it so you should have gone through 12 holes in 2:45 ( figure not exactly correct of the top of my head )


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Once again you failed to read the post correctly it clearly says the whole field timings are looked at and then re-peat offenders are approached where they are asked why its happening.
Concentrate on your interviews and have a bit of respect for the candidates

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Would do if they'd bother turning up


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On the card it has the time you are expected to have finished that hole totally 4 hours for each round and it includes the walking in between. So as an example after 12 holes it says 2:45 next to it so you should have gone through 12 holes in 2:45 ( figure not exactly correct of the top of my head )
		
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I get it now I have seen it on a few courses.
I remember playing with you at that WSM course where it had a sign and I remember not even batting an eyelid at it because it really seemed irrelevant as you can only go as fast as the group in front.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I get it now I have seen it on a few courses.
I remember playing with you at that WSM course where it had a sign and I remember not even batting an eyelid at it because it really seemed irrelevant as you can only go as fast as the group in front.
		
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It seems to have gone done well with most members but we will continue to monitor to see how it goes


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Would do if they'd bother turning up
		
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Perhaps they have heard who the interviewer is


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Once again you failed to read the post correctly it clearly says the whole field timings are looked at and then re-peat offenders are approached where they are asked why its happening.
Concentrate on your interviews and have a bit of respect for the candidates

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I get all that but as I said, we all pay chuncks of cash for a social acitivity and I am just wondering at what point members start getting annoyed at being approached and sanctioned and decide not to play in comps or even leave the club. I thought it was a simple enough question. Yet again you find it a reason to pick fault (for the umpteenth time in recent months).


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## Whereditgo (Apr 7, 2016)

I've seen this on cards at numerous courses in Europe, possibly taken notice of more by visitors than members though, who, without regular gentle reminders may stop checking progress against the target times?


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## Whereditgo (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I get all that but as I said, we all pay chuncks of cash for a social acitivity and I am just wondering at what point members start getting annoyed at being approached and sanctioned and decide not to play in comps or even leave the club. I thought it was a simple enough question. Yet again you find it a reason to pick fault (for the umpteenth time in recent months).
		
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Maybe it is for the club to weigh the risk of losing one or two members who are brought to task over persistent slow play against the risk of losing many members who get frustrated and being able to attract new members?


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

Whereditgo said:



			Maybe it is for the club to weigh the risk of losing one or two members who are brought to task over persistent slow play against the risk of losing many members who get frustrated and being able to attract new members?
		
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But what if they don't leave and still play more slowly than the club committee or some members would like, do they (the club) refuse to give them specific tee times or be brave enough to blackball them completely and not accept their renewal membership, I can see some lawlers loving the  opportunity to get stuck into that can of worms!


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## Whereditgo (Apr 7, 2016)

Fish said:



			But what if they don't leave and still play more slowly than the club committee or some members would like, do they (the club) refuse to give them specific tee times or be brave enough to blackball them completely and not accept their renewal membership, I can see some lawlers loving the  opportunity to get stuck into that can of worms!
		
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I wouldn't think that giving a group, or individuals, a specific tee time (at the back of the field in competitions for e.g.) that ensured they do not detract from the enjoyment of others would be unreasonable. Possibly the club would have to amend their Constitution to prevent it being challenged?


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

Whereditgo said:



			I wouldn't think that giving a group, or individuals, a specific tee time (at the back of the field in competitions for e.g.) that ensured they do not detract from the enjoyment of others would be unreasonable. Possibly the club would have to amend their Constitution to prevent it being challenged?
		
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It would almost come across the same as "constructive dismissal" to me, in that, the club was deliberately making it difficult for the member, who in the past always tee'd off in the morning but now being _told_ they had to tee off at say 2pm, I can't see that happening and could see it being challenged personally.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Whereditgo said:



			Maybe it is for the club to weigh the risk of losing one or two members who are brought to task over persistent slow play against the risk of losing many members who get frustrated and being able to attract new members?
		
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If members continue to not heed the slow play warning given by the President they will be requested to book later tee times in competitions - if that still doesn't work then they will be suspended from competitions. The committee have the right to suspend people's right to play in comps - there is already a process in place for both non attendance and disciplinary which was passed at AGM


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If members continue to not heed the slow play warning given by the President they will be requested to book later tee times in competitions - if that still doesn't work then they will be suspended from competitions. The committee have the right to suspend people's right to play in comps - there is already a process in place for both non attendance and disciplinary which was passed at AGM
		
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I accept all of that but people will eventually leave and I'm sure word of mouth about the vigorous policing will get around and it could put potential members off especially relatively new players worried they will play and then get sanctioned


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2016)

I know people switch off when someone says back in the day.... Once upon a time slow play notices used to say something like if you were taking more than 3.5 hours in a four ball you were taking too long. Then it became 4 hours. Elsewhere in this thread someone talks about 4.5 hours being acceptable. And then goes onto say some people don't realise they are slow.

Jesus H Smith, if you think 4.5 hours on an average course is acceptable you are part of the problem.


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## rickg (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I accept all of that but people will eventually leave and I'm sure word of mouth about the vigorous policing will get around and it could put potential members off especially relatively new players worried they will play and then get sanctioned
		
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Or it could attract new members as word spreads that someone in the area is finally prepared to try and improve slow play.......
Get rid of slow players....attract non slow players.....win, win!

Lot of people on this thread who despise slow play, but are very quick to knock clubs that try and do something about it.


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## upsidedown (Apr 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I know people switch off when someone says back in the day.... Once upon a time slow play notices used to say something like if you were taking more than 3.5 hours in a four ball you were taking too long. Then it became 4 hours. Elsewhere in this thread someone talks about 4.5 hours being acceptable. And then goes onto say some people don't realise they are slow.

Jesus H Smith, if you think 4.5 hours on an average course is acceptable you are part of the problem.
		
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Hear hear , spot on Bri


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2016)

rickg said:



			Or it could attract new members as word spreads that someone in the area is finally prepared to try and improve slow play.......
Get rid of slow players....attract non slow players.....win, win!

Lot of people on this thread who despise slow play, but are very quick to knock clubs that try and do something about it.
		
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Again Rick I agree and applaud Woburn for their approach but if we're being realistic as a whole, how much has the pace of play changed in the last twenty years. I can see it causing issues especially when members get hit and then start arguing their case. It might work (hope it does) but can't see too many clubs following suit


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I know people switch off when someone says back in the day.... Once upon a time slow play notices used to say something like if you were taking more than 3.5 hours in a four ball you were taking too long. Then it became 4 hours. Elsewhere in this thread someone talks about 4.5 hours being acceptable. And then goes onto say some people don't realise they are slow.

Jesus H Smith, if you think 4.5 hours on an average course is acceptable you are part of the problem.
		
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Our old golf secretary used to go out in buggy in the 80's - if he saw that you were losing ground would give one warning - if not heeded within two hours would kick you off the course - any person playing a round longer than 3 and half hours had to explain themselves to him - if he wasn't happy with explanation - 1 month ban from comps  - ruled the club with an iron fist


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If members continue to not heed the slow play warning given by the President they will be requested to book later tee times in competitions - if that still doesn't work then they will be suspended from competitions. The committee have the right to suspend people's right to play in comps - there is already a process in place for both non attendance and disciplinary which was passed at AGM
		
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Just apply slow play shot penalties. People don't want to post a nett 3 under only for it to become 1 over due to penalties. No ones stopping them from playing, even at their preferred time. As to hoards of people leaving, just how many culprits are there? Very few. And how many would leave and how many would stay? Imagine how many might join if they heard Hackers GC had improved the pace of play??


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just apply slow play shot penalties. People don't want to post a nett 3 under only for it to become 1 over due to penalties. No ones stopping them from playing, even at their preferred time. As to hoards of people leaving, just how many culprits are there? Very few. And how many would leave and how many would stay? Imagine how many might join if they heard Hackers GC had improved the pace of play??
		
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Not sure how it could be imposed without a proper Marshall on the course mate - that would be the perfect solution - having two Marshalls with the ability to impose penalties etc but it costs money. Getting one Marshall could be what we end up having to do as the course gets busier over summer


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## rickg (Apr 7, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Again Rick I agree and applaud *Woburn*for their approach but if we're being realistic as a whole, how much has the pace of play changed in the last twenty years. I can see it causing issues especially when members get hit and then start arguing their case. It might work (hope it does) but can't see too many clubs following suit
		
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Think it's Leighton Buzzard


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

rickg said:



			Think it's Leighton Buzzard
		
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Thank god for that, I'm playing Woburn end of June...... I'll give LB a wide berth.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

3565 said:



			Thank god for that, I'm playing Woburn end of June...... I'll give LB a wide berth.
		
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Why exactly ?

If you are going to Woburn end of June they double up the on course Marshalls and if you lose holes you are informed to catch up or pick up and move on.


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## Green Man (Apr 7, 2016)

3565 said:



			Thank god for that, I'm playing Woburn end of June...... I'll give LB a wide berth.
		
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You want to avoid a club because they are trying to stop slow play?


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## rickg (Apr 7, 2016)

Green Man said:



			You want to avoid a club because they are trying to stop slow play?
		
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Unfortunately, people are arguing against the man instead of the ideas....sad really.


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

rickg said:



			Unfortunately, people are arguing against the man instead of the ideas....sad really.
		
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My issue with this is, LP is heading this crusade and yet at Woburn the marshal came up to our group and clearly stated that our 1st group was the main issue for us all being held up, which LP was in, as they hit the turn in 2hrs 29 minutes, so was our first group out held up and were they waiting on tees and approaches? Yet in a post on that thread it was stated by him "that they flew around the front 9", so, is this a typical case of slow players in denial or was the marshal lying, I don't accept the latter because the facts of the day was, we waited on every tee and every shot from the 2nd hole meaning we had a tortious 5hr round, and yet it's nobody's fault and everyone in every group was apparently up with the group in front!

Hmm, practice & preach springs to mind &#129300;


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2016)

Fish said:



			My issue with this is, LP is heading this crusade and yet at Woburn the marshal came up to our group and clearly stated that our 1st group was the main issue for us all being held up, which LP was in, as they hit the turn in 2hrs 29 minutes, so was our first group out held up and were they waiting on tees and approaches? Yet in a post on that thread it was stated by him "that they flew around the front 9", so, is this a typical case of slow players in denial or was the marshal lying, I don't accept the latter because the facts of the day was, we waited on every tee and every shot from the 2nd hole meaning we had a tortious 5hr round, and yet it's nobody's fault and everyone in every group was apparently up with the group in front!

Hmm, practice & preach springs to mind &#129300;
		
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Nope not going to go there


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## 3565 (Apr 7, 2016)

rickg said:



			Unfortunately, people are arguing against the man instead of the ideas....sad really.
		
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Really Rick? He's culpable himself.


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 7, 2016)

nobody likes slow play ,and of course everyone that is a member of this site isnt a slow player.
  but that is the problem ,we are all slow players and we are all not going to admit it .we like to think we are getting on with the job ,that we are always ready to play when its our turn ,that we dont dally on the green adding up our score for that hole ,that we have never held the group behind up .that we have always allowed them through when pressured from behind. 
 yeh right,slow play is now the norm and we are not going to get away from it in the club level games we play .the pro game might just get something done about it ,but dont bank on it filtering through to the likes of us . 
   i play with a bunch of lads who each end every one of them has parts of their play that slows a round down ,i dont of course co im a member of this site and none of us are slow are we.so when added together playing with my mates each with their little foibles the game becomes a slow round .i get narked when my usual pp marks his card on the green instead of teeing off .i get narked when another has to go thru the routine of the grass throwing and the yardage book and the range finder ,and then thinks about putting his glove on before taking another tuft of grass before getting his club out of the bag and then go into his preshot routine. i get narked when on the green the player nearest the pin dosent tend the flag for the player furthest away ,no its always the player who is second furthest away and he then has to go through all of his putting routine ,lining up from all sides of the hole before putting his ball down ,and then spend more time making sure the line he has drawn on his ball is perfectly in line with where he wants to putt. this can be done upwards of three or four times before they are satisfied with it . 
 but each and everyone of them will tell you that because they walk fast between shots that they are not slow .
    i have given up saying anything to them as im seen as a moaner and always bitching that they are slow. remember im not slow cos im a member of this site. 
    slow play ,......its here to stay.


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we going into specifics now ? 

We did the front 9 in 2 hours 15 but took a little bit of time in the halfway hut due to the gap behind us - as we were going round the back 9 the group behind caught us up but were still half a hole behind us all the way - they prob waited a few times whilst we finished searching for a few balls and finished in under 5 hours. As I was doing the cards I could see gaps of when people were arriving into the clubhouse. The back nine of the Marquess was tough in the conditions that day and I have no doubt plenty people behind were searching for balls and struggling in those conditions. The Marshall ( who I play golf with ) was with us for the last couple of holes of the front 9 and told us we arrived at the halfway hut as expected but I'll ask him at the weekend to see if he blamed the first group :thup:
		
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If Specifics are facts, then yes! 

And Ask away, unless you just want to call me a liar, but Kenny also mentioned what the marshal said to us all in our group in the Woburn thread but nobody decided to comment on it, I wonder why, it's not like you miss anything on here! 

Not sure what relevence the back 9 has, we waited on every shot from the 2nd, so are you blaming the 2nd group, which if you say you turned in 4hrs 15mins and took a bit of time in the hut due to the gap behind you, they must have been more than a hole behind and turned in well over 4.5hrs! 

The point I'm making here, is, it's never them or anyone commenting in these threads, everyone sings from the same hymn sheets and yet we experience constant 4.5-5hr rounds! 

My round in my last B-team was a bit long, if not too long, but it was identifiable, in that, we played off the back stones and shouldn't have due to the conditions, age groups and mixed inexperience, couple that with some tough pin positions on a tough course and having to clean your ball on every shot and it obviously took too long, but it's the deniability and its always some else syndrome I don't like to read or hear on here, and yet when your behind these groups and watching them, the classic elements of slow play unfolding in front of you as you wait to take your shot is frightening, and yet all those groups won't believe they are doing anything wrong! 

We all said in our group that if we videod what we could see it would possibly surprise them all, but would that be enough to change them, or is everyone just in their own bubble once out on a course?


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope not going to go there
		
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Too late, you need to edit quicker!


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2016)

The poacher said:



			nobody likes slow play ,and of course everyone that is a member of this site isnt a slow player.
  but that is the problem ,we are all slow players and we are all not going to admit it .we like to think we are getting on with the job ,that we are always ready to play when its our turn ,that we dont dally on the green adding up our score for that hole ,that we have never held the group behind up .that we have always allowed them through when pressured from behind. 
 yeh right,slow play is now the norm and we are not going to get away from it in the club level games we play .the pro game might just get something done about it ,but dont bank on it filtering through to the likes of us . 
   i play with a bunch of lads who each end every one of them has parts of their play that slows a round down ,i dont of course co im a member of this site and none of us are slow are we.so when added together playing with my mates each with their little foibles the game becomes a slow round .i get narked when my usual pp marks his card on the green instead of teeing off .i get narked when another has to go thru the routine of the grass throwing and the yardage book and the range finder ,and then thinks about putting his glove on before taking another tuft of grass before getting his club out of the bag and then go into his preshot routine. i get narked when on the green the player nearest the pin dosent tend the flag for the player furthest away ,no its always the player who is second furthest away and he then has to go through all of his putting routine ,lining up from all sides of the hole before putting his ball down ,and then spend more time making sure the line he has drawn on his ball is perfectly in line with where he wants to putt. this can be done upwards of three or four times before they are satisfied with it . 
 but each and everyone of them will tell you that because they walk fast between shots that they are not slow .
    i have given up saying anything to them as im seen as a moaner and always bitching that they are slow. remember im not slow cos im a member of this site. 
    slow play ,......its here to stay.
		
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Yep, I agree, we are all ambassadors and are the perfect role models for everything that is good in golf, all hail the GM forumites &#128077;&#128526;&#127948;


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 7, 2016)

Fish said:



			Yep, I agree, we are all ambassadors and are the perfect role models for everything that is good in golf, all hail the GM forumites &#62541;&#62990;&#62412;
		
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 ya cheeky beggar.:ears:


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## Snelly (Apr 7, 2016)

3 ball today in testing conditions - 3 hours 10 minutes. Not racing round.  Just sensible play.

It can be done.....


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## chrisd (Apr 7, 2016)

Fish said:



			My issue with this is, LP is heading this crusade and yet at Woburn the marshal came up to our group and clearly stated that our 1st group was the main issue for us all being held up, which LP was in, as they hit the turn in 2hrs 29 minutes, so was our first group out held up and were they waiting on tees and approaches? Yet in a post on that thread it was stated by him "that they flew around the front 9", so, is this a typical case of slow players in denial or was the marshal lying, I don't accept the latter because the facts of the day was, we waited on every tee and every shot from the 2nd hole meaning we had a tortious 5hr round, and yet it's nobody's fault and everyone in every group was apparently up with the group in front!

Hmm, practice & preach springs to mind &#129300;
		
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I can only remember about one hole when we were able to walk on to the tee and bat straight off, I know Pokerjoke was in the group in front and I suspect they waited in a similar fashion. It was a brutal day and I'd have been suprised if it had been any quicker!


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## Smiffy (Apr 8, 2016)

Nothing worse than coming to a par 5, seeing the group in front just putting their clubs away and walking off the tee yet the group in front of them are already on the green!
Doesn't matter how you flower it up, that isn't keeping up with the group in front.


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## Fish (Apr 8, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Nothing worse than coming to a par 5, seeing the group in front just putting their clubs away and walking off the tee yet the group in front of them are already on the green!
Doesn't matter how you flower it up, that isn't keeping up with the group in front.
		
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and getting to a par 3 with 2 players still yet to tee off from that 4-ball and having to wait for them to completely finish the hole, standing on the tee for ages when we should have been let through as an obvious faster group or at the very least allowed to play down simultaneously as the group behind in the other society was now also walking to the tee area putting more pressure on us, or, when they were all eventually on the green, call us down, but none of that happened and yet we read of these situations constantly being exercised, maybe they do it in their heads as they certainly don't do it practise!


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## irip (Apr 8, 2016)

I was not at Woburn so only trying to gather info.
What was the time difference between the tee times.
I personally think that is what causes a lot of problems, some clubs allow 7-8 minutes in my opinion this is not enough.
You have 4 players tee off walk to their balls all play their second shots and then the group behind goes as soon as they can.
This happens all day meaning anyone who has to look for a ball is holding up the whole course behind them and this has a knock on effect for the whole field


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## Slab (Apr 8, 2016)

irip said:



			I was not at Woburn so only trying to gather info.
What was the time difference between the tee times.
I personally think that is what causes a lot of problems,* some clubs allow 7-8 minutes in my opinion this is not enough.*
You have 4 players tee off walk to their balls all play their second shots and then the group behind goes as soon as they can.
This happens all day meaning anyone who has to look for a ball is holding up the whole course behind them and this has a knock on effect for the whole field
		
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Agree and not right in the opinion of the R&A either, I read on there that they recommend 11 (or even 12) minutes for a 4-ball 1st tee spacing 

Yes there will be the courses where that's too long (short par 3 opener maybe) but any club running 7-8 minutes should be able to easily explain to its members the reasoning why they would use shorter spacing given the damage to pace


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

irip said:



			I was not at Woburn so only trying to gather info.
What was the time difference between the tee times.
I personally think that is what causes a lot of problems, some clubs allow 7-8 minutes in my opinion this is not enough.
You have 4 players tee off walk to their balls all play their second shots and then the group behind goes as soon as they can.
This happens all day meaning anyone who has to look for a ball is holding up the whole course behind them and this has a knock on effect for the whole field
		
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It was 8 min gaps to allow two societies to play 36 holes in one day.


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## Fish (Apr 8, 2016)

Slab said:



			Agree and not right in the opinion of the R&A either, I read on there that they recommend 11 (or even 12) minutes for a 4-ball 1st tee spacing 

Yes there will be the courses where that's too long (short par 3 opener maybe) but any club running 7-8 minutes should be able to easily explain to its members the reasoning why they would use shorter spacing given the damage to pace
		
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The problem is nobody looks at the clocks and goes off in correct intervals, they go when they believe the group in front is no longer in range, so even if it was a par 3 the 10 minute or more intervals should stand or otherwise you just get a bottle neck very quickly on the first par 4. Even starters at Woburn in the afternoon called you down once the group in front was clear, interval times didn't come into it IMO.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 8, 2016)

in my opinion, 8 minutes gap isnt enough, not for a 4 ball, maybe altering the search time for a lost ball to 2 minutes to compensate might be worth considering, lets face it, if you cant find it in 2 minutes, then you probably dont want to find it.

I like society golf, but 4 people on a new course who dont really know where they are going and it will be slower than 4 members who play there regularly, i've also let faster groups through on society days, especially if a single or 2 ball.

Re last week at Woburn, it is pointless trying to point the finger at any particular group or person, It sounds like there were simply too many people on the course at the same time and if one group stops to look for a ball, the whole thing backs up, the only answer is to space things out and if that means societies cant play 36 holes till mid April then thats how it should be.


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## irip (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was 8 min gaps to allow two societies to play 36 holes in one day.
		
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Great that they tried to get everyone 36 holes but its obvious that the 8 minute gaps were not enough to allow play to flow at a decent pace.

In hindsight would everyone that went to Woburn have enjoyed it more if you had only played 18 holes but had 12 minute gaps and been allowed to play at a pace where you could play your shot when ready as opposed to when you could.

I am not having a pop at Woburn or anyone who went along or organised just commenting on what i have read.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			in my opinion, 8 minutes gap isnt enough, not for a 4 ball, maybe altering the search time for a lost ball to 2 minutes to compensate might be worth considering, lets face it, if you cant find it in 2 minutes, then you probably dont want to find it.

I like society golf, but 4 people on a new course who dont really know where they are going and it will be slower than 4 members who play there regularly, i've also let faster groups through on society days, especially if a single or 2 ball.

Re last week at Woburn, it is pointless trying to point the finger at any particular group or person, It sounds like there were simply too many people on the course at the same time and if one group stops to look for a ball, the whole thing backs up, the only answer is to space things out and if that means societies cant play 36 holes till mid April then thats how it should be.
		
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I believe Society days at away Unknown courses is always going to cause issues. I can't remember a society day where at times people have been held up or waited. When it comes to those days - I fully expect it tbh. 

I know last week at Woburn there was going to be times where it was going to a time issue and it's exactly as you say - lots of people on unknown course which isn't the easiest in testing conditions - there was no doubt lots of searching for balls. In comparison I have taken over 5 hours before on the Marquess in both invitation days and Pro Am's - it's not a short course and it's not a short walk. 

If we had ten minute gaps then we would have lost one tee time and so would have the group behind us. 

I will be looking to book it again next year at the same time and it will be the same as this year in regards the timings


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## Slab (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was 8 min gaps to allow two societies to play 36 holes in one day.
		
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Phil, picking you because your club is actively pushing an initiative at the moment (I'm sure other clubs are too) 

With all the communication with members etc taking place what are the planned pace of play initiatives concerning the green-staff, committee etc that will be pushed at the same time?

I.e tee spacing, comp format, pin placements, green speed, rough length, choke-points, tee selection etc

And do you think they'll meet any kind of resistance for any reason


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## irip (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe Society days at away Unknown courses is always going to cause issues. I can't remember a society day where at times people have been held up or waited. When it comes to those days - I fully expect it tbh. 

I know last week at Woburn there was going to be times where it was going to a time issue and it's exactly as you say - lots of people on unknown course which isn't the easiest in testing conditions - there was no doubt lots of searching for balls. In comparison I have taken over 5 hours before on the Marquess in both invitation days and Pro Am's - it's not a short course and it's not a short walk. 

If we had ten minute gaps then we would have lost one tee time and so would have the group behind us. 

I will be looking to book it again next year at the same time and it will be the same as this year in regards the timings
		
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Without doubt you should book again next year with the same format you could see how popular it was by the waiting list, but i am sure everyone would of enjoyed it more had it not been so slow.
I feel for the last group as they have to play every shot with a group of blokes they dont know watching and no doubt moaning about the pace of play.
And of course the weather didnt help either, its a lot easier to wait with the sun on your back rather than being huddled up freezing cold trying to stay dry.
I for one will be putting my name down and accept its not going to be quick


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Slab said:



			Phil, picking you because your club is actively pushing an initiative at the moment (I'm sure other clubs are too) 

With all the communication with members etc taking place what are the planned pace of play initiatives concerning the green-staff, committee etc that will be pushed at the same time?

I.e tee spacing, comp format, pin placements, green speed, rough length, choke-points, tee selection etc

And do you think they'll meet any kind of resistance for any reason
		
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So far we are stick with 8 min gap and 3 balls - there was a call to introduce 4 ball at that gap

More stablefords have been introduced. 

Rough length has been reduced but thickened
Lots of areas of bramble has been cleared out to help players find balls quicker 

Only in the club champs , Capts day and Presidents Day will the full length course used and greens quickened up but that will be 10 min 3 balls. 
Looking at possible introducing call up holes on two par threes.


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## TheDiablo (Apr 8, 2016)

rickg said:



			Unfortunately, people are arguing against the man instead of the ideas....sad really.
		
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Spot on. You would think he and the club are trying to encourage slow play the way some people have reacted! 

Is slow play a problem at a number of clubs? Yes. Are many actually doing anything other than lip service? No. So if a club tries something, it should be applauded. 

If it doesnt work out, and they begin to lose a few members or whatever, I am sure the club will look again and stop the new measures. But at least they will have tried!!!


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## Junior (Apr 8, 2016)

Fish said:



			The problem is nobody looks at the clocks and goes off in correct intervals, they go when they believe the group in front is no longer in range, so even if it was a par 3 the 10 minute or more intervals should stand or otherwise you just get a bottle neck very quickly on the first par 4. Even starters at Woburn in the afternoon called you down once the group in front was clear, interval times didn't come into it IMO.
		
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This is a great point that is often overlooked imo.  You should wait till your tee time to tee off, not just smack away once the first group is out of range.  People do this and are surprised when they catch the group in front up because they are looking for a ball for a couple of minutes.


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 8, 2016)

the way marshalls approach players on the course has a bearing on speed . i played a society day at a place that none of us had played before ,i was in the third of five groups out and yes it was slow ,as we were waiting on most shots ,[cant say all as we did putt on the green lol]
 anyway ,pompous pete the marshall turns up and says to me who is waiting with a seven iron in hand from the middle of the fairway, why are you waiting ,well it was obvious to my group why ,but not pompous pete ,well you are holding up play just hit a wedge closer to the green.
  then drove off .i think it must have been the look i gave him that made him take the early exit. 
 one of my pp on the day was the organiser and he went into the clubhouse after the round to complain ,all he got was not you as well. 
 a little bit of courtesy would have helped matters im sure but to just drive up and demand i layed up from about 145yds  was a bit poor in my opinion.
 nobody intentionally plays slow im sure ,but if your group loses a hole then by all means a gee up from a marshall is not unheard of ,but not when you are tight up the arris of the group in front.


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## Midnight (Apr 8, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			in my opinion, 8 minutes gap isnt enough, not for a 4 ball, maybe altering the search time for a lost ball to 2 minutes to compensate might be worth considering, lets face it, if you cant find it in 2 minutes, then you probably dont want to find it.'


Out of interest how was the 5 min rule time for looking for a lost ball decided on?
		
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## Qwerty (Apr 8, 2016)

The amount of time between Teetimes is irrelevant to Slow play. 
You could have 2 minute Gaps and a huge queue on the 1st but once your out and playing the pace of play is dictated by the slowest group in front of you on the course.
You may not even see who's causing the problem as they're 6 or 7 holes in front.


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## Smiffy (Apr 8, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Once your out and playing the pace of play is dictated by the slowest group in front of you on the course.
You may not even see who's causing the problem as they're 6 or 7 holes in front.
		
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Is the correct answer.
Not saying it's the 1st group out, it could be the 2nd, 3rd or 4th.
I hate it when you can see that a group up ahead have pulled 2 or 3 holes out on the following group.
But when you comment on it to the players in the group that are causing the grief, they all look at each other and say "well it's not me".
One of life's mysteries


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## pokerjoke (Apr 8, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			The amount of time between Teetimes is irrelevant to Slow play. 
You could have 2 minute Gaps and a huge queue on the 1st but once your out and playing the pace of play is dictated by the slowest group in front of you on the course.
You may not even see who's causing the problem as they're 6 or 7 holes in front.
		
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Spot on time gaps 8 or 10 mean diddly squat.


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## Smiffy (Apr 8, 2016)

I used to play with a guy who was notoriously slow. Bob Eagle. What a name for a golfer!
But boy he was slow. I've seen more movement in a glass eye.
Nobody enjoyed playing with him. We nagged, and nagged and nagged.
It did no good.
He was in a world of his own.
No exaggeration, but the group he was in sometimes fell as much as 45 minutes behind the group in front.
We made sure he was always in the final group out.
If he had been a horse, you would have shot him.
Nice guy, but a right royal pain in the arse to play golf with


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## patricks148 (Apr 8, 2016)

We had that was a first for me, slow play wise today!!!!!!

our 4 ball Held up by a single player.

The club don't allow visitors out before 9am but let this guy go as he was on his own.

he tee'd off at 8.40 and us the first group out in our roll up at 9am. he was still on the first green stalking his putt while we waited to play. 

I think he must have been the son of Kegan Bradly and Jason Day the time he took.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

This is an example of a letter to send to members 

*Good Etiquette; or, the way we do things around here
The oncoming Masters reminds us that the golf season is getting into full swing, and already we have had some feedback to suggest that a timely reminder on etiquette on the course would be helpful to us.

It is noteworthy that the first section proper of the R&A Rules of Golf is that covering 'Etiquette' and it is summarised as follows;

This section provides guidelines on the manner in which the game of golf should be played. If they are followed, all players will gain maximum enjoyment from the game. The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times.

This is a very clear statement that doesn't leave any room for, or need for, debate.

The section is dominated by the paragraphs on 'Slow Play', the acknowledged curse of the game. Indeed, golf writing as a whole is dominated by the topic. Golf Monthly magazine recently devoted 10 pages to the subject. The article is well written, interestingly presented, and makes good suggestions that, if followed by all, will quicken up play on our course. Copies are available in the members' bar.

Do not think slow play is a new concern. Henry Longhurst wrote in his article 'Don't muck about', published on 28th October, 1954, that 'These days a two ball going round in two and a quarter hours would excite favourable comment, whereas onceover it was the norm.' Be assured, this was for all eighteen holes. Nowadays, we feel we have done well if we get round in 4 hours.

The club has taken various measures to help speed up play: undergrowth and brush has been cleared; signage around the course has been improved; distance markers are accurate and available on every hole; playing conditions through the green have seen huge improvements.

We have considered introducing course marshals, and, also, taking sanctions against 'repeat offenders'. We have shelved the idea of course marshals because they are expensive and some people, who may already be playing quickly, find their presence disturbing. We don't want to go down the route of taking sanctions because we think our members are capable of being self policing and of helping each other to enjoy the game. However, we will keep a watching brief in this regard.

The answer to slow play is to take Henry Longhurst's advice and, 'Don't muck about'. Familiarise yourself with the suggestions to combat slow play in the aforementioned Golf Monthly article; the R&A rules of golf   http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Etiquette/Behaviour-on-the-Course ; the notes that have been in the locker rooms for two years; the suggestions in the Club Diary, and ensure that you follow them, and, if you are an example to the rest of us, don't be afraid to tell us, your playing partners, to get on with it and keep up with the game in front.

If all members follow this commonsense advice, we should be able to get round a three ball medal or a 4 ball betterball in four hours. But the key word is all.

If only one group fails to keep up with play, the enjoyment of the entire field is spoiled.

Please, don't be in that group!
Good golfing
*


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 8, 2016)

Nice idea, but people won't read past the 2nd paragraph.
Just too long

Edit it down, bullet points, short n sharp


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Nice idea, but people won't read past the 2nd paragraph.
Just too long

Edit it down, bullet points, short n sharp
		
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Exactly what I did. If I got something like that it would end up in the bin unread... Just had another go at it, and didn't finish again. It's way too fluffy wordy.

I guess it wasn't put together by a marketeer. If my marketing manager came into my office with that we'd be having a very direct conversation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Nice idea, but people won't read past the 2nd paragraph.
Just too long

Edit it down, bullet points, short n sharp
		
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It's already gone and been received well so far 

Done the short and sharp version before already - this is being sent from the President in a letter format. It is fluffy as a start to the members.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 8, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Nice idea, but people won't read past the 2nd paragraph.
Just too long

Edit it down, bullet points, short n sharp
		
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Have to agree that members will pay little regard to a long-winded notice.

The most effective forms are short and punchy e.g. "Remember your three *R*'s!

* R*eplace divots

*R*ake bunkers

*R*epair pitchmarks."  

That proved more effective than the previous more wordy reminders. But anything is worth a try to resolve the issue of slow play


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Have to agree that members will pay little regard to a long-winded notice.

The most effective forms are short and punchy e.g. "Remember your three *R*'s!

* R*eplace divots

*R*ake bunkers

*R*epair pitchmarks."  

That proved more effective than the previous more wordy reminders. But anything is worth a try to resolve the issue of slow play
		
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It's not a notice 

There are already short and punchy notices around the club - this is a letter from the president to the members


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## Smiffy (Apr 8, 2016)

Don't like this bit...
"the way we do things around here"

I'd be tempted to tell you to poke it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a notice 

There are already short and punchy notices around the club - this is a letter from the president to the members
		
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But that's my point, Phil.

I hope it works for your Club but like PtF and Hobbit I fear that most will just bin such a letter after reading just the first para'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But that's my point, Phil.

I hope it works for your Club but like PtF and Hobbitt I fear that most will just bin such a letter after reading just the first para'.
		
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Going by the response so far from the members ( considering it's not been out long ) it has been received positively 

There are notices and snippets from certain areas etc to be communicated out via weekly pro update 

For years out members get zero communication - over the last year that has improved and now they swallow up anything that is communicated out to them.


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## upsidedown (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Going by the response so far from the members ( considering it's not been out long ) it has been received positively 

There are notices and snippets from certain areas etc to be communicated out via weekly pro update 

For years out members get zero communication - over the last year that has improved and now they swallow up anything that is communicated out to them.
		
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Whilst admiring your clubs pro active stance in addressing the slow play issue I suspect your replies /comments from members so far will be from those that don't need telling and those to who it really applies will not be bothered to comment/reply as it's not us that are slow .


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## Robobum (Apr 8, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Don't like this bit...
"the way we do things around here"

I'd be tempted to tell you to poke it.
		
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I didn't read past this.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			Whilst admiring your clubs pro active stance in addressing the slow play issue I suspect your replies /comments from members so far will be from those that don't need telling and those to who it really applies will not be bothered to comment/reply as it's not us that are slow .
		
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I have no doubt about it - it may make more aware but if we put everything into place so that when someone is sanctioned we can point to the polite letters and the notices and say - you were warned.


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## Fish (Apr 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Exactly what I did. If I got something like that it would end up in the bin unread... Just had another go at it, and didn't finish again. It's way too fluffy wordy.

I guess it wasn't put together by a marketeer. If my marketing manager came into my office with that we'd be having a very direct conversation.
		
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Not sure about "fluffy", more like woffle, by the time you get to the end you've forgot what was at the beginning, it's far too long and would get filed very quickly in the bin, like a lump of grisle, too much to chew over and even harder to swallow. 

I agree with Ben, to those that's it's targeted towards are hardly going to reply or respond, even if they did attempt to read, understand and absorb it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Don't like this bit...
"the way we do things around here"

I'd be tempted to tell you to poke it.
		
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Why what exactly is wrong with it - just saying how we want things to happen at our club - which is follow the guidelines set out by R&A and use common sense and courtesy of others.

I am in no doubt anything the car tries will be dismissed - it's a running theme , but then the same that dismiss it will be the first to cry about slow play and ask why aren't the club doing anything. 

As Diablo says - you would think we were asking players to play slowly to ensure everyone's enjoyment of the game is ruined.

Can I ask ( general question ) - what are your clubs doing to combat any slow play or etiquette issues.


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## richart (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why what exactly is wrong with it - just saying how we want things to happen at our club - which is follow the guidelines set out by R&A and use common sense and courtesy of others.

I am in no doubt anything the car tries will be dismissed - it's a running theme , but then the same that dismiss it will be the first to cry about slow play and ask why aren't the club doing anything. 

As Diablo says - you would think we were asking players to play slowly to ensure everyone's enjoyment of the game is ruined.

Can I ask ( general question ) - what are your clubs doing to combat any slow play or etiquette issues.
		
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We get long emails from our Chairman, which I am more than happy to read. Good chap, member for 40 years, and knows what he is talking about. I always read anything the club take the trouble to send me, as I like to know what is going on. Mostly I agree, occasionally not, but at least I am always being informed. Nothing slow play specific, though there may be reminders in the emails.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

richart said:



			We get long emails from our Chairman, which I am more than happy to read. Good chap, member for 40 years, and knows what he is talking about. I always read anything the club take the trouble to send me, as I like to know what is going on. Mostly I agree, occasionally not, but at least I am always being informed. Nothing slow play specific, though there may be reminders in the emails.
		
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Summed it up well - people read what their clubs sends them if they have any interest in the club - especially when it comes from the President or Chairman


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## Robobum (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Summed it up well - people read what their clubs sends them if they have any interest in the club - especially when it comes from the President or Chairman
		
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It's this attitude that drives me mad about my golf club.

If YOU have any interest in YOUR club.
What can YOU do for YOUR club

I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll stump up a hefty chunk of cash every year so that it contributes to the running of the club and the wages of those who are employed by it.

Now tell me, what are YOU doing to justify my cash?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Robobum said:



			It's this attitude that drives me mad about my golf club.

If YOU have any interest in YOUR club.
What can YOU do for YOUR club

I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll stump up a hefty chunk of cash every year so that it contributes to the running of the club and the wages of those who are employed by it.

Now tell me, what are YOU doing to justify my cash?
		
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Trying to make it as best as possible and as enjoyable as possible but for to happen it needs more than money. 

If you don't have any interest in what's happening at the club then I expect you won't read anything they say. 

No wages are paid to the committee who help run the club.


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## Robobum (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Trying to make it as best as possible and as enjoyable as possible but for to happen it needs more than money. 

If you don't have any interest in what's happening at the club then I expect you won't read anything they say. 

No wages are paid to the committee who help run the club.
		
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You're well suited to committee


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Robobum said:



			You're well suited to committee
		
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Thank you :thup:


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Summed it up well - people read what their clubs sends them if they have any interest in the club - especially when it comes from the President or Chairman
		
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That is a rather arrogant statement Phil, especially the "if they have any interest in the club." I first started on committee in '86, and have probably missed 5 years in that time through choice. That doesn't mean I've agreed with everything that's come out of committee nor read everything word for word.

to have someone question my commitment to golf and to the clubs I've served which such an offhand comment doesn't sit well, nor does it paint the vast majority of hard working committee men and women in a good light.

I've seen many high handed notices down the years, all well intentioned, that have rightly been sniggered at. But I'll give you a little exercise in how notices are ignored. Next time you're in the club ask a few members if they've read xyz on the notice board? You'll be mightily disappointed in the answer.

Talking with, not to, the members, rather than hiding behind notices, achieves far more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That is a rather arrogant statement Phil, especially the "if they have any interest in the club." I first started on committee in '86, and have probably missed 5 years in that time through choice. That doesn't mean I've agreed with everything that's come out of committee nor read everything word for word.

to have someone question my commitment to golf and to the clubs I've served which such an offhand comment doesn't sit well, nor does it paint the vast majority of hard working committee men and women in a good light.

I've seen many high handed notices down the years, all well intentioned, that have rightly been sniggered at. But I'll give you a little exercise in how notices are ignored. Next time you're in the club ask a few members if they've read xyz on the notice board? You'll be mightily disappointed in the answer.

Talking with, not to, the members, rather than hiding behind notices, achieves far more.
		
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Not once have I questioned your commitment nor suggested that everyone had to agree with what the club has said 

We have talked to members and certainly not hidden behind notices or anything of the sort 

All the club is trying to achieve is enjoyment for all but this thread has been full of people dismissing at the drop of a hat 

Far too many are attempting and getting close to making this personal in regards the poster as opposed to what a club is trying to achieve.


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## Robobum (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not once have I questioned your commitment nor suggested that everyone had to agree with what the club has said 

We have talked to members and certainly not hidden behind notices or anything of the sort 

All the club is trying to achieve is enjoyment for all but this thread has been full of people dismissing at the drop of a hat 

Far too many are attempting and getting close to making this personal in regards the poster as opposed to what a club is trying to achieve.
		
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Think of this post the next time you jump all over Delc 

https://youtu.be/NHOf3s70w-c


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Think of this post the next time you jump all over Delc 

https://youtu.be/NHOf3s70w-c

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Cheers - anything to add on the slow play issues then ?


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## 3565 (Apr 8, 2016)

IT comes across as ruling with an iron fist, do as we say.......

how we do things round here doesn't come across friendly at all and I for one wouldn't want to be part of that attitude.


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## Robobum (Apr 8, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cheers - anything to add on the slow play issues then ?
		
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Yeah, get on with it. Fannying around at Woburn got on some nerves by the looks.

Happy to help


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			IT comes across as ruling with an iron fist, do as we say.......

how we do things round here doesn't come across friendly at all and I for one wouldn't want to be part of that attitude.
		
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So don't you believe all clubs have a consitution and rules that are to be followed ?

What we are asking for is members to follow the R&A guidelines - whats wrong with that attitude ?


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## 3565 (Apr 8, 2016)

There's a way of going about, saying and passing it on to the members! 

I can can only go by my club and to be honest there isn't much of an issue, unlike your club by the sound of it. I got more issues with players not being responsible in replace, repair and rake not being adhered to then some group losing ground, which maybe a by product of hurrying players to get round a certain time for the enjoyment of others yet divots, pitch marks and unraked bunkers are on the increase.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			There's a way of going about, saying and passing it on to the members! 

I can can only go by my club and to be honest there isn't much of an issue, unlike your club by the sound of it. I got more issues with players not being responsible in replace, repair and rake not being adhered to then some group losing ground, which maybe a by product of hurrying players to get round a certain time for the enjoyment of others yet divots, pitch marks and unraked bunkers are on the increase.
		
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And that's all part of the etiquette guidelines set out by the R&A 

Maybe your club should communicate out to the members :thup:


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## Fish (Apr 8, 2016)

Spieth moaning to his caddie that he's on the clock and wants to take his time more and feels rushed leading to errors! Your on the clock for a reason sunshine, so crack on....


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## 3565 (Apr 8, 2016)

Maybe it should and possibly will, but it'll be in a more friendly manner then what I've been reading.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			Maybe it should and possibly will, but it'll be in a more friendly manner then what I've been reading.
		
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Use the R&A Guidelines ( even though it's an attitude you don't like ) - they help greatly :thup:


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## 3565 (Apr 8, 2016)

I never said anything about the R&A. I read your and clubs poor attitude towards it's members IMO.


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## chrisd (Apr 8, 2016)

Pompous letter I'd say!


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why what exactly is wrong with it - just saying how we want things to happen at our club -
		
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Pompous, condescending, rude, elitist.
Just a few words that spring to mind Phil.
If Cooden sent out a letter to me which included that phrase, it would certainly leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

For years we have discussed trying to get away from the stuffy old fashioned and elitist attitudes of golf clubs..... to make the game more accessible and appealing to a wider audience.
Cooden itself, when discussing dress codes on their website, has a picture of a shirt and tie to reinforce the fact that they expect you to dress appropriately. 
This was picked up by another member of the forum and commented on. 
It smacks of elitism (or snobbishness), although it doesn't bother me personally.

The phrase that I took offence to in your letter annoys me.


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## TheDiablo (Apr 9, 2016)

I think the problem is that you're only going to hear positive feedback from those that aren't causing the issue... 

The bitching and moaning will take place in the little cliques and you won't hear about it. 

I 100% commend the club for trying something new, but like others feel that letter is just too long and comes across very authoritarian. Still better than clubs ignoring it though!


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## garyinderry (Apr 9, 2016)

I find no fault with the letter.   Great move by the club.  

Anyone offended is probably a slow player.   How very dare they?


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Anyone offended is probably a slow player.   How very dare they?
		
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I took offence at the opening paragraph.
I'm one of the fastest players you could wish to meet.


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## garyinderry (Apr 9, 2016)

You could look at it as a pop at the way other clubs are run.  They pride themselves are bastions of good etiquette. 

The opening line could be viewed as something to be proud of, not be offended by.


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			nThe opening line could be viewed as something to be proud of, not be offended by.
		
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I guess that depends on whether you are a prig or not.


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## Khamelion (Apr 9, 2016)

My answer to slow play, starts with the tour pros:-

Get slow players on the clock, warning, final warning, docked 2 shots, docked another 2 shots then they get refused entry to the next major they were eligible to play in.

For us mere mortals on the Saturday comp, course marshalls around the course and then the same as above.


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## 3565 (Apr 9, 2016)

Khamelion said:



			My answer to slow play, starts with the tour pros:-

Get slow players on the clock, warning, final warning, docked 2 shots, docked another 2 shots then they get refused entry to the next major they were eligible to play in.

For us mere mortals on the Saturday comp, course marshalls around the course and then the same as above.
		
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I agree, it starts at the top, these are the best in the world, hit the ball better, further, putt & chip better and make less mistakes then us amateurs yet take over 5 hrs in a 3 ball?


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## Slab (Apr 9, 2016)

Re the example letter a few pages back, Phil obviously knows his audience and it may be a cracking letter for them 

Itâ€™s really difficult to write a letter to a group audience and for everyone to accept the content/format etc but I think this could have done with a proof read from someone skilled in that area 

For me this letters not personal enough. It reads as if its directed towards  â€˜Mr Generic Memberâ€™ rather than Mr Liverpool Phil  

Itâ€™s also very much â€˜we haveâ€™ or â€˜the club hasâ€™ etc and I get the whole we are a team thing but if this is from the club president where is the â€˜I have...â€™ â€˜I will...â€™ Whereâ€™s the personal touch, the personal commitment etc. It reads like it was written by a committee rather than a real person 

Itâ€™s also a bit wordy & lengthy and harking back in style with references to 19canteen instead of a pace plan for the future

That may be what that membership need though


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Pompous, condescending, rude, elitist.
Just a few words that spring to mind Phil.
If Cooden sent out a letter to me which included that phrase, it would certainly leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

For years we have discussed trying to get away from the stuffy old fashioned and elitist attitudes of golf clubs..... to make the game more accessible and appealing to a wider audience.
Cooden itself, when discussing dress codes on their website, has a picture of a shirt and tie to reinforce the fact that they expect you to dress appropriately. 
This was picked up by another member of the forum and commented on. 
It smacks of elitism (or snobbishness), although it doesn't bother me personally.

The phrase that I took offence to in your letter annoys me.
		
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Have to say, rarely, I agree with you Smiffy. I read it twice, once last night after coming in from a night out, (and decided not to comment on what I felt at that time) and again just now and your four words opening the post are spot on.

Is it an intrinsic issue with Woburn? I know every clubs have members who moan like buggery about slow play and hanker after the days you could get done in three hours tops. At my place we can play a Saturday fourball in the roll up at 8.30 (so peak time) and be done inside four hours regularly, including looking got balls. In comps it's still rarely more than four hours, especially playing provisionals.

There are always slow players at every club. Some don't admit they are a problem, some oblivious to it all. It's good to see Woburn trying something but I just don't feel this is the best way of doing it


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 9, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have to say, rarely, I agree with you Smiffy. I read it twice, once last night after coming in from a night out, (and decided not to comment on what I felt at that time) and again just now and your four words opening the post are spot on.

Is it an intrinsic issue with Woburn? I know every clubs have members who moan like buggery about slow play and hanker after the days you could get done in three hours tops. At my place we can play a Saturday fourball in the roll up at 8.30 (so peak time) and be done inside four hours regularly, including looking got balls. In comps it's still rarely more than four hours, especially playing provisionals.

There are always slow players at every club. Some don't admit they are a problem, some oblivious to it all. It's good to see Woburn trying something but I just don't feel this is the best way of doing it
		
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Martin, Its Leighton Buzzard, Not Woburn..... Get with the program


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Martin, Its Leighton Buzzard, Not Woburn..... Get with the program
		
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That'll be the hangover kicking in then


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## pokerjoke (Apr 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This is an example of a letter to send to members 

*Good Etiquette; or, the way we do things around here
The oncoming Masters reminds us that the golf season is getting into full swing, and already we have had some feedback to suggest that a timely reminder on etiquette on the course would be helpful to us.

It is noteworthy that the first section proper of the R&A Rules of Golf is that covering 'Etiquette' and it is summarised as follows;

This section provides guidelines on the manner in which the game of golf should be played. If they are followed, all players will gain maximum enjoyment from the game. The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times.

This is a very clear statement that doesn't leave any room for, or need for, debate.

The section is dominated by the paragraphs on 'Slow Play', the acknowledged curse of the game. Indeed, golf writing as a whole is dominated by the topic. Golf Monthly magazine recently devoted 10 pages to the subject. The article is well written, interestingly presented, and makes good suggestions that, if followed by all, will quicken up play on our course. Copies are available in the members' bar.

Do not think slow play is a new concern. Henry Longhurst wrote in his article 'Don't muck about', published on 28th October, 1954, that 'These days a two ball going round in two and a quarter hours would excite favourable comment, whereas onceover it was the norm.' Be assured, this was for all eighteen holes. Nowadays, we feel we have done well if we get round in 4 hours.

The club has taken various measures to help speed up play: undergrowth and brush has been cleared; signage around the course has been improved; distance markers are accurate and available on every hole; playing conditions through the green have seen huge improvements.

We have considered introducing course marshals, and, also, taking sanctions against 'repeat offenders'. We have shelved the idea of course marshals because they are expensive and some people, who may already be playing quickly, find their presence disturbing. We don't want to go down the route of taking sanctions because we think our members are capable of being self policing and of helping each other to enjoy the game. However, we will keep a watching brief in this regard.

The answer to slow play is to take Henry Longhurst's advice and, 'Don't muck about'. Familiarise yourself with the suggestions to combat slow play in the aforementioned Golf Monthly article; the R&A rules of golf   http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Etiquette/Behaviour-on-the-Course ; the notes that have been in the locker rooms for two years; the suggestions in the Club Diary, and ensure that you follow them, and, if you are an example to the rest of us, don't be afraid to tell us, your playing partners, to get on with it and keep up with the game in front.

If all members follow this commonsense advice, we should be able to get round a three ball medal or a 4 ball betterball in four hours. But the key word is all.

If only one group fails to keep up with play, the enjoyment of the entire field is spoiled.

Please, don't be in that group!
Good golfing
*

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In the words of Homer I am not totally convinced this letter has been sent to the members of LP club.

If I had posted this my opening line would have been "This is a the letter we have sent to all our members" not "This is an example of a letter to send to members".


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 9, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			In the words of Homer I am not totally convinced this letter has been sent to the members of LP club.

If I had posted this my opening line would have been "This is a the letter we have sent to all our members" not "This is an example of a letter to send to members".
		
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It has been sent with a few adjustments but not sure exactly


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## pokerjoke (Apr 9, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It has been sent with a few adjustments but not sure exactly
		
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This is then where a problem arises as people have been posting on the basis this was the letter sent because the way I read it was the way you were trying to perceive it.
If im wrong I apologies but just the first paragraph got peoples backs up but if this was not actually in the letter people might have posted a different response.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 9, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			This is then where a problem arises as people have been posting on the basis this was the letter sent because the way I read it was the way you were trying to perceive it.
If im wrong I apologies but just the first paragraph got peoples backs up but if this was not actually in the letter people might have posted a different response.
		
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Adjustments understand were mainly grammar and the target audience is our members and our president who has been a member for 30 plus and knows the members. 

Some people don't like the first paragraph and made judgements about it - I have no issue with and certainly don't see as rude etc nor does any of our swindle who have all read it.


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## GB72 (Apr 9, 2016)

After today I would add club pros to the list of problems. Played with 2 higher handicappers in a comp. Both had been to separate pros, both had been given extensive pre shot routines to follow. Ended up with my first ever 4.5 hour round at my club


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2016)

GB72 said:



			After today I would add club pros to the list of problems. Played with 2 higher handicappers in a comp. Both had been to separate pros, both had been given extensive pre shot routines to follow. Ended up with my first ever 4.5 hour round at my club
		
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I've no issues  with a solid PSR, but these need to be taking place, where possible, while other players are playing their shots so they are ready to step in and play their shot when it's their turn. I've no issues with that. It's when they start doing it after the other player has hit his shot. It's these 45-60 seconds per hole per person that cause problems


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## GB72 (Apr 9, 2016)

Never does happen like that though. It is all designed to culminate in hitting the ball. Approach ball, look at shot, step back line yourself up, approach ball, go through your set up reminders and procedures, loosen up with a practice swing, hit the ball, repeat. Pros are teaching people to do this and I would say from today's experience having 2 people do that added 45 minutes to the round. As Snelly says so correctly, walk up, hit ball, repeat.

Oh and also take all markings off the golf ball. The amount of fannying around getting the line pointing the correct way to a tenth of a multimeter is getting silly.


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## Beedee (Apr 9, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Oh and also take all markings off the golf ball. The amount of fannying around getting the line pointing the correct way to a tenth of a multimeter is getting silly.
		
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I must admit I hate the "lining up the ball" bit.  I tried it for a couple of rounds but almost never set the ball down perfectly first time.  I was so paranoid about not taking too long that I'd almost never step back and line up the ball again.  This meant I was deliberately not quite hitting along the line of ball.  

It was all too much faff for me, and I hate thinking that I'm holding up the group, so now when i replace the ball I make sure that the line on the ball (if visible at all) is nowhere even close to the line of the putt.  It's stopped me second guessing myself so much.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2016)

Beedee said:



			I must admit I hate the "lining up the ball" bit.  I tried it for a couple of rounds but almost never set the ball down perfectly first time.  I was so paranoid about not taking too long that I'd almost never step back and line up the ball again.  This meant I was deliberately not quite hitting along the line of ball.  

It was all too much faff for me, and I hate thinking that I'm holding up the group, so now when i replace the ball I make sure that the line on the ball (if visible at all) is nowhere even close to the line of the putt.  It's stopped me second guessing myself so much.
		
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I don't worry too much about lining a mark up to the nth degree I do put the direction line down in view as I somehow prefer looking down on that than the manufacturers name


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