# Sex discrimination in golf



## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about? 

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said. 

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp? 

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.


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## JamesR (Jul 22, 2020)

Yeah, we have loads of blokes like you


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## Robster59 (Jul 22, 2020)

Opens the popcorn, takes a seat......................


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## Golfman15 (Jul 22, 2020)

Unfortunately we play a game steeped in a misogynist tradition.
All competitions should be open to all and tee times not protected for certain groups, perhaps other than younger juniors who need to be supervised


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 22, 2020)

Oh dear, One to watch methinks


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## Bazzatron (Jul 22, 2020)

Back under your bridge.


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## Wolf (Jul 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Opens the popcorn, takes a seat......................
		
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Is there room on your bench for one more.. I'll bring my own popcorn🍿


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 22, 2020)

It's a spoof post, surely 🤔. Wolf, Robster, I prefer chilly coated nuts rather than popcorn. Is that okay still?


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## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

For the white knights who have a problem with what I say... 

Can you explain why ladies shouldn't have shirts tucked in but men should?

Can you explain to me why men shouldn't be able to use a toilet but women can?

Can you explain to me why certain parts of the week should be excluded to one sex only?

Can you explain to me why it's okay to refuse to let someone play through because they are a different sex? I'd challenge any man who refused to let a women play through (and hold her up) simply because she was a women so it doesn't make sense to me. 

I'm always happy to learn - and am always willing to say when I'm wrong. But I would require a bit more intelligence than simply 'blokes like you'.


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## Robster59 (Jul 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a spoof post, surely 🤔. Wolf, Robster, I prefer chilly coated nuts rather than popcorn. Is that okay still?
		
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Go for it, but get a big bag.  This one could run.


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## harpo_72 (Jul 22, 2020)

Just wear a dress and get on with it 👍


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## Robster59 (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			For the white knights who have a problem with what I say...

Can you explain why ladies shouldn't have shirts tucked in but men should?

Can you explain to me why men shouldn't be able to use a toilet but women can?

Can you explain to me why certain parts of the week should be excluded to one sex only?

Can you explain to me why it's okay to refuse to let someone play through because they are a different sex? I'd challenge any man who refused to let a women play through (and hold her up) simply because she was a women so it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm always happy to learn - and am always willing to say when I'm wrong. But I would require a bit more intelligence than simply 'blokes like you'.
		
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Clubs are allowed to positively discriminate towards a group that is under-represented in it's membership. 
And Pedal Pushers really don't suit me.  Skirts on the other hand ..................


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 22, 2020)

I heard plenty of this sort of dross when playing with my daughters. Always made me laugh when they outdrove the man with the mouth


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## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Clubs are allowed to positively discriminate towards a group that is under-represented in it's membership.
And Pedal Pushers really don't suit me.  Skirts on the other hand ..................
		
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Semantics. But positive discrimination is entirely unlawful. But positive action is lawful. https://assets.publishing.service.g...hment_data/file/85026/vcs-positive-action.pdf

I think most clubs would struggle to justify the tucking in of shirts as breaking down the barriers for female golf participation. 

In fact I think most clubs would run a mile and back down pronto if someone pushed them on it. But it's not diplomatic to do so.


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## IainP (Jul 22, 2020)

OP, would you be okay to publish a typical months worth of fixtures/comps to support your argument?


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## Foxholer (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			...
Can you explain to me why men shouldn't be able to use a toilet but women can?
...
		
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I can't see why they didn't build 2 (or more) loos! An old (Scottish fwiw) club of mine did exactly that!
Of course, only the Men's one needed signs in it stating 'If you make a mess, clean it up' (or words to that effect)!

As for the rest....Women tend to be extremely tidily dressed - even if their top is outside their skirt/shorts etc. Men on the other hand, look scruffy with shirts out. Another previous club did change their 'standards' to allow 'bobble-socks' for both sexes - an entirely sensible adjustment for (vain) men!
I don'r believe my current club has specific (or perhaps *any) *code for on-course apparel, but everyone seems fine. There's deliberately no clubhouse standard, as calling in on the way home from work is encouraged!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 22, 2020)

My place has an equal dress code. I heard this straight from the golf managers mouth, 'If ladies can have their tops out, so can men'. Plenty do, we haven't been struck down by lightning so far 😆

I don't get this as an issue. It really doesn't matter but then that applies to most dress code issues imo.

We also have a portaloo after the 9th, open for use for anyone. Not sure why it would be restricted to one sex only at the op's place.


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## Crazyface (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			For the white knights who have a problem with what I say...

Can you explain why ladies shouldn't have shirts tucked in but men should?

Can you explain to me why men shouldn't be able to use a toilet but women can?

Can you explain to me why certain parts of the week should be excluded to one sex only?

Can you explain to me why it's okay to refuse to let someone play through because they are a different sex? I'd challenge any man who refused to let a women play through (and hold her up) simply because she was a women so it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm always happy to learn - and am always willing to say when I'm wrong. But I would require a bit more intelligence than simply 'blokes like you'.
		
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Oh thank GOD. Someone else has noticed that us men are getting poo'ed on and the women folk are taking the proverbial.


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## SasquatchSQ (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			For the white knights who have a problem with what I say...

Can you explain why ladies shouldn't have shirts tucked in but men should?

Can you explain to me why men shouldn't be able to use a toilet but women can?

Can you explain to me why certain parts of the week should be excluded to one sex only?

Can you explain to me why it's okay to refuse to let someone play through because they are a different sex? I'd challenge any man who refused to let a women play through (and hold her up) simply because she was a women so it doesn't make sense to me.
		
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1) because a lot of women's shirts aren't designed to be tucked in. Men's polo shirts are.

2) men should have a toilet. But if you only have space/money to build one for now, women's should be a priority, for obvious reasons.

3) because female golfers are often the butt of jokes or made to feel unwelcome by a small minority of men. Do you have problem with there being a time reserved for juniors?

4) that's not ok, unless it means you'd be impinging on a women's only allocated slot. 

The fact that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a "white knight" makes me think you don't want actual answers though.


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## Papas1982 (Jul 22, 2020)

The shirts tucked in issue has been raised on a fair few threads recently.
Most clubs are quite clear that shirts designed to be worn untucked (men and women) can be. I think this will progress further, let’s be honest, in the past the physiques of the pros weren’t what they are now (generally), so an untucked xxl shirt looked horrific.


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## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

SasquatchSQ said:



			1) because a lot of women's shirts aren't designed to be tucked in. Men's polo shirts are.

2) men should have a toilet. But if you only have space/money to build one for now, women's should be a priority, for obvious reasons.

3) because female golfers are often the butt of jokes or made to feel unwelcome by a small minority of men. Do you have problem with there being a time reserved for juniors?

4) that's not ok, unless it means you'd be impinging on a women's only allocated slot.

The fact that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a "white knight" makes me think you don't want actual answers though.
		
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I was genuinely looking for answers. 

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in... 

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex. 

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate. 

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that. 

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 22, 2020)

As long as our golf shirts are tailored, we are permitted to have them untucked. We thought of the facilities carefully when we designed and built the clubhouse when we moved from inside the racecourse. We asked our ladies if they wanted to join in all the mens competitions (we have certain board events which is open to both sections and winner takes all) and they declined. The men were asked (for equality) and unsurprisingly didn't want to play in the ladies events. 

We still have traditional ladies morning on a Tuesday. It is still an integral part of the weekly diary in the same way as the roll ups are (women aren't complaining they can't get out from 10-11 on a Thursday or early on a Saturday/Sunday when some of the roll ups play but they are open to play) and the men and new male members know when to avoid. 

The vast majority of our ladies are happy to let faster groups through (yes there are a few stubborn ones but I think they are integral to most clubs) and so it's never been an issue playing behind them. The ladies section also do an awful lot of work for the club behind the scenes keeping the clubhouse tidy (doing repairs) and volunteering to help at the big male events like Captains Day. In essence they are an integral part of the club and we'd be in a mess without them. I find the OP's post dated and perhaps there is a baited hook being dangled


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## Liverbirdie (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.
		
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Whereabouts is the penis fitted? Asking for a friend.


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## bobmac (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I was genuinely looking for answers.
		
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Did you know the rules/dress code before you joined the club?


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## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Did you know the rules/dress code before you joined the club?
		
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Sort off. The dress code doesn't really distinguish between men and women - on paper. But if I rocked up with my shirt untucked etc something would be said. In fact it has been said to a mate of mine. We pointed to the lady captain and it ended with huffing and puffing about it being different. It's an unwritten rule that the ladies can dress however they want - or perhaps the rules are just not enforced. I'd rather not fall out with the pro and his assistants over it as they are top guys - so play along. They get trouble if they let the boys get away with not following the code, but would get grief if they started enforcing it on the women. Not fair on them at all. 

Side note - I use that rule in my favour as well. When it's open if I want to take my partner for a drink or a meal in the clubhouse I can do without her having to rigidly follow the dress code. So I'm not as interested in making women dress up like the men, as much as letting the men dress how they feel comfortable as well. For my partner she can wear smart jeans and a nice top untucked - and she wouldn't want to go with me for a drink if she was made to dress up in a certain way which isn't her style.

The other stuff I wasn't aware of until I became a member. Don't get me wrong - I don't feel strongly enough about it to leave. Although I don't mind speaking my mind either.


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## timd77 (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I was genuinely looking for answers. 

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in... 

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex. 

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate. 

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that. 

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.
		
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sammyboy said:



			As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about? 

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said. 

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp? 

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.
		
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There speaks a man looking at things from the point of view of a sex which has been dominant since the dawning of time.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 22, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			Side note - I use that rule in my favour as well. When it's open if I want to take my partner for a drink or a meal in the clubhouse I can do without her having to rigidly follow the dress code. So I'm not as interested in making women dress up like the men, as much as letting the men dress how they feel comfortable as well. For my partner she can wear smart jeans and a nice top untucked - and she wouldn't want to go with me for a drink if she was made to dress up in a certain way which isn't her style.
		
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So you're happy for you're partner to ignore any dress code rules, but not lady golfers?
Sound's sexist to me.
I'm surprised you let her out of the house, what with all that cleaning,  ironing  and other housework you probably consider "womens work"..


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## sammyboy (Jul 22, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So you're happy for you're partner to ignore any dress code rules, but not lady golfers?
Sound's sexist to me.
I'm surprised you let her out of the house, what with all that cleaning,  ironing  and other housework you probably consider "womens work"..

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I'd rather there were no silly rules in the first place. But if they have to stay I think they should be applied fairly and equally. If that makes me sexist in your eyes then I can only suggest you book an appointment with an optician. 

I think having a drink in a bar or a bite to eat is totally different to a sporting dress code. If you feel differently then I'm not sure we are on the same level. 

The house work is currently being done by me as I'm on furlough and she is working in a hospital. But I'll pass on to her that some bloke on the internet thinks she should be doing these things.


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## KenL (Jul 22, 2020)

All of these, frankly, ridiculous dress code rules (long socks, no black socks,  no cargo shorts, tuck your shirt in...) make me embarrassed to be a golfer. Whether it is a club "rule" or not should not matter.

Golf clubs and the game itself is in decline and it will only get worse if these pathetic old fashioned attitudes are not brought to an end.

To the OP, all golfers should have the same guidelines with regard to dress or perhaps none at all.

How good would it be if clubs said something like "dress as you wish so you can play your best & enjoy your game"?


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## harpo_72 (Jul 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The shirts tucked in issue has been raised on a fair few threads recently.
Most clubs are quite clear that shirts designed to be worn untucked (men and women) can be. I think this will progress further, let’s be honest, in the past the physiques of the pros weren’t what they are now (generally), so an untucked xxl shirt looked horrific.
		
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Every shirt I own is designed that way... I have spent my life having people tell me to tuck my shirt in. 
I think a button either side that connects to your trouser resolves the issue .. but many shirts are not long enough in the body unless they specify it.


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## Slab (Jul 23, 2020)

@sammyboy 
Assuming you are not in the minority at your club on these matters why not just bring them up at the AGM and the members will vote in the change/s, all your cares solved in an hour (except maybe not being invited through by any gender of player)

If you are in the minority, its your fellow club members that do not want the changes you wish to see


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## SasquatchSQ (Jul 23, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I was genuinely looking for answers.

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in...

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex.

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate.

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that.

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.
		
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Like I said - if you're genuinely looking for answers, maybe don't call anyone willing to help you a "white knight" - if you're going to do that, you can't then complain if people assume you're a sexist dinosaur. 

Traditionally, men's polo shirts are designed to be tucked in, if worn in a traditional/formal setting. It's like how my club specifically states that peaked hats can't be worn backwards - they're making sure they're worn in the traditional way. Seems silly to me, but it's relatively common IMO. Women's blouses are often more tightly fitted and shorter, and as such are traditionally not tucked into trousers/skirt/shorts - you obviously can buy women's clothes that are meant to be tucked in, but a lot are not. Hence the rule. 

Women have  historically often been excluded from membership/playing of golf courses completely, so I think that's why there's traditional splits in competitions etc - the men demanded it initially. I can certainly see how that's led to feelings on their part of being made to feel unwelcome, and therefore wanting to maintain that separation. My club has a lady as the overall captain this year, and I couldn't believe the amount of complaints it brought about.


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## howbow88 (Jul 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			All of these, frankly, ridiculous dress code rules (long socks, no black socks,  no cargo shorts, tuck your shirt in...) make me embarrassed to be a golfer. Whether it is a club "rule" or not should not matter.

Golf clubs and the game itself is in decline and it will only get worse if these pathetic old fashioned attitudes are not brought to an end.

To the OP, all golfers should have the same guidelines with regard to dress or perhaps none at all.

How good would it be if clubs said something like "dress as you wish so you can play your best & enjoy your game"?
		
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I await the response of 'I don't know anyone who wouldn't play golf because of a dress code.' Whilst absolutely ignoring the image that these archaic rules give the sport of golf.


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## Griffsters (Jul 23, 2020)

I actually thought it was a spoof post when I first read it, but then realised its golf we are talking about.

This won't go down well but IMHO, when you have such entrenched privilege somewhere (like Golf clubs) it takes positive action to change things. Many will perceive these changes as unfair as their privilege is the norm to them.

Some of the things mentioned I can understand but generally don't require a great deal of thought to understand reasoning, even if you don't agree with it.


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## Crazyface (Jul 23, 2020)

I'm backing the OP! I think I've posted much the same in the past. And it beggars belief that there are so many men on here that are too quick to have a pop at what is a genuine question from the OP. He's only pointing out the inequalities at his club. Women are allowed much more leeway than the men. If they don't like something they kick off and men being men we back down. When really we should be saying, "we cannot have one rule for one and not another". If women gain a change in the club rules then this rule should then be applied across the board. That's all the OP is saying. I agree with him 100%. And if you don't then YOU are being sexist towards your fellow MEN. There really is no arguement on this.


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## Refurbished2020 (Jul 23, 2020)

The only valid issue is playing through, and that is a unisex problem. Since most (?) clubs won't do anything about it even if you make a formal complaint, raise it at the AGM etc, just grit your teeth and sulk like most of us.

Shirts out! All for that, especially for those of a fuller figure. A 'nicely' draped shirt beats that midline bulge.

And at the risk of lynching, I raise you stretch pants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2020)

I'm not that keen on seeing a bloke's exposed midriff when he does a full following through - or indeed a bloke's 'bum crack' when picking up his ball.  However...  I guess that's me simply showing favouritism.


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## SasquatchSQ (Jul 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm backing the OP! I think I've posted much the same in the past. And it beggars belief that there are so many men on here that are too quick to have a pop at what is a genuine question from the OP. He's only pointing out the inequalities at his club. Women are allowed much more leeway than the men. If they don't like something they kick off and men being men we back down. When really we should be saying, "we cannot have one rule for one and not another". If women gain a change in the club rules then this rule should then be applied across the board. That's all the OP is saying. I agree with him 100%. And if you don't then YOU are being sexist towards your fellow MEN. There really is no arguement on this.
		
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I'm sure you'd be allowed to wear a shirt untucked if it's a blouse that is meant to be worn like that.


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## sammyboy (Jul 23, 2020)

SasquatchSQ said:



			I'm sure you'd be allowed to wear a shirt untucked if it's a blouse that is meant to be worn like that.
		
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Im sure you could not at many clubs including my own.

The rules are men must have a shirt tucked in. If i rock up in a shirt that cant be tucked in then it would cause embaressment for all and id be asked to purchase one from the pro shop. In reality this woukdnt happen as i dont want to put the pro shop in that position or have a falling out with members of the committee.

I dont agree with it all. But i respect the people enough to not cause them problems.

Tbh id rather more women played golf. Especially younger women. Id also rather more young men played. At my club as a 30something im one of the younger people. And i can see why. Its not just the silly rules but the outdated ideas... today i woke up to the newsletter with the ladies committee saying they will be cleaning the outdoor furniture! The club are also paying a company to do social media marketting for them as they want new members... shame they didnt ask me as a younger member as id have done it for free saving them enough to build a male toilet or offer free lessons to new younger golfers.

Contrary to what many think... im far from sexist or anti females. Id love my partner to play golf, but she would be having none of it if she as a girl was expected to clean furniture for the men to sit on. She is a former national swimmer going to the commonwealth games, is under 30 and does triathlons for fun, she has a good enough job to pay fees and be a decent member. But she would be having none of boys vs girls rubbish with segregation etc. She sees herself as an equal to anyone, quite rightly. And im humble enough to admit with her fitness i reckon with some practise she could wipe the floor with me on a golf course. She has my old driver and goes to the range with me, and hits it straighter than me and further than plenty of the older men - carrying 200 yards on the range. Its a shame imo.


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## chrisd (Jul 23, 2020)

One of the reasons that clubs have fairly strict dress codes is simply to stop the golfers from turning up in a string vest and jeans etc. There are always the golfers who will dress in chinos that they change into in the locker room and have not been washed in the last couple of months etc etc so, its sensible to insist on proper golf wear just as a cricketer or footballer would wear clothing suitable for their sport.  If golf clubs have one problem is their failure to review their rule from time to time imo as to what's acceptable.


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## banjofred (Jul 23, 2020)

The "rules" around golf clubs are getting better (in my opinion) but need to keep changing.......and golfers (older, which most are) are very reluctant for change to happen. For so many years there were plenty of courses that wouldn't let you wear running shoes while playing.....just because they were running shoes, not "golf" shoes......even though in reality they are the same thing and had just as much traction on the bottoms as spikeless golf shoes. Things are changing, but a little faster would be nice.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2020)

I'm sorry to hear that you hate women. Most of what you say are non-issues though. Personally my club has a very relaxed dress code, and the majority of clubs I visit don't tell me to tuck my shirt in these days. I'm quite happy to wear a polo and golf shorts, and let's face it, women can't wear "whatever they like" I'm sure they would not be allowed to wear denim for example, or crop tops etc. 

You sound like one of the 'all lives matter' brigade - missing the point that a lot of the measures are to encourage women to participate more and address an existing imbalance - not to _favour _them.


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## sammyboy (Jul 23, 2020)

banjofred said:



			The "rules" around golf clubs are getting better (in my opinion) but need to keep changing.......and golfers (older, which most are) are very reluctant for change to happen. For so many years there were plenty of courses that wouldn't let you wear running shoes while playing.....just because they were running shoes, not "golf" shoes......even though in reality they are the same thing and had just as much traction on the bottoms as spikeless golf shoes. Things are changing, but a little faster would be nice.
		
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For many years... That's still a rule at my club! No trainers. Only golf shoes.


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## Imurg (Jul 23, 2020)

Anyone else wondering that there's a few more important things going on than worrying why blokes have to tuck their shirts in while the gals don't....?


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## Grant85 (Jul 23, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.
		
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This is like a parody from the pages of the Viz or Private Eye.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			This is like a parody from the pages of the Viz or Private Eye.
		
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From the title I genuinely thought it was going to be a post about how to address the discrimination against women, not men.  How silly of me.


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## Fish (Jul 23, 2020)

Polo shirts should be longer by 8” at the front so the pot belly pigs can tuck them in 😜👍


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## Crumplezone (Jul 23, 2020)

chrisd said:



			One of the reasons that clubs have fairly strict dress codes is simply to stop the golfers from turning up in a string vest and jeans etc.
		
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I don't have a string vest, but regularly play in jeans and a t shirt at several courses that don't have a dress code. I don't even tuck my t shirt in. How is that a problem for anyone else?


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## Robster59 (Jul 23, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			I don't have a string vest, but regularly play in jeans and a t shirt at several courses that don't have a dress code. I don't even tuck my t shirt in. How is that a problem for anyone else?
		
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It's not a problem at the courses you play at.  However, if a private members club requests that you have a minimum dress code (and it's not actually that onerous in most cases) then you respect that.  
Mind you, I don't fancy playing golf in jeans for practical purposes.  Too hot when it's warm, too heavy when it rains.  
The problem is the OP started out with a rant about what women can do and men can't, and then rails about women inequality in a later post.  

Anyway, I'm off to open a box of Pringles now.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			It's not a problem at the courses you play at.  However, if a private members club requests that you have a minimum dress code (and it's not actually that onerous in most cases) then you respect that. 
Mind you, I don't fancy playing golf in jeans for practical purposes.  Too hot when it's warm, too heavy when it rains. 
The problem is the OP started out with a rant about what women can do and men can't, and then rails about women inequality in a later post. 

Anyway, I'm off to open a box of Pringles now.
		
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Yeah I never understand why people would _want_ to play in jeans, they're really not fit for purpose. Golf trousers tend to be lighter and looser fitting, let alone shorts which I'd rather wear anyway.


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## chrisd (Jul 23, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			I don't have a string vest, but regularly play in jeans and a t shirt at several courses that don't have a dress code. I don't even tuck my t shirt in. How is that a problem for anyone else?
		
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Would you expect to turn up and play dressed like that at your local tennis club?


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## DRW (Jul 23, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Would you expect to turn up and play dressed like that at your local tennis club?
		
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I have played in many different things when I was a member and only play socially. I have played in shorts to trousers, to jumpers, to cardigans, to winter coats,  to not even tucking my T shirt it (I was a right old rebel when I was younger) .

To be honest, it had never even crossed my mind that there maybe a dress code at the tennis club, surely there isnt  off I go to look out of interest[EDIT no mention on the website and different rules for men/women etc]


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## davidy233 (Jul 23, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			The club are also paying a company to do social media marketting for them as they want new members... shame they didnt ask me as a younger member as id have done it for free
		
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Judging by most of what you've written in this topic it's a blessing to the world that they didn't ask you


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## chrisd (Jul 23, 2020)

DRW said:



			I have played in many different things when I was a member and only play socially. I have played in shorts to trousers, to jumpers, to cardigans, to winter coats,  to not even tucking my T shirt it (I was a right old rebel when I was younger) .

To be honest, it had never even crossed my mind that there maybe a dress code at the tennis club, surely there isnt  off I go to look out of interest
		
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I played competitive club tennis for about 10 years and, no, there wasnt a dress code for casual club night knockabouts but there certainly was for league matches and competitions, which was most of the tennis I played.  Also you couldn't pitch up at indoor "pay and play" courts without the right gear.


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## Crumplezone (Jul 23, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Would you expect to turn up and play dressed like that at your local tennis club?
		
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Tennis requires that sports clothes be worn as it involves actually running around and getting warm. Jeans are perfectly practical for playing golf. They do not affect ability to play whatsoever. The only item of golf wear that is actually practical and necessary are shoes. The rest is down to preference. At one time, playing in a tweed suit with waistcoat and tie was normal golf attire. Not exactly practical was it? Golf polo shirts just started out as a way to cheat the over formal dress codes as the bare minimum of having a collar, but being comfortable and practical. I can imagine golfers in the past cursing them as a disgraceful drop in standards and calling for them to be banned.


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## davidy233 (Jul 23, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			The only item of golf wear that is actually practical and necessary are shoes.
		
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I take it you mean golf shoes - might be required some places but by no mean necessary


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## chrisd (Jul 23, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			Tennis requires that sports clothes be worn as it involves actually running around and getting warm. Jeans are perfectly practical for playing golf. They do not affect ability to play whatsoever. The only item of golf wear that is actually practical and necessary are shoes. The rest is down to preference. At one time, playing in a tweed suit with waistcoat and tie was normal golf attire. Not exactly practical was it? Golf polo shirts just started out as a way to cheat the over formal dress codes as the bare minimum of having a collar, but being comfortable and practical. I can imagine golfers in the past cursing them as a disgraceful drop in standards and calling for them to be banned.
		
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Most club tennis is doubles, I could certainly have coped in the winter with jeans on. You could play golf wearing a Donald Duck suit and get round, and I could certainly play golf in plimsolls in the summer, so golf shoes are NOT necessary


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2020)

Bottom line is that it is probably the case that, in general, when left to their own devices blokes might not be as bothered as ladies about how they dress and how they look in public...it's not a fact, but just an observation Mrs SILH has made to me.  I took it personally...


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## sammyboy (Jul 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bottom line is that it is probably the case that, in general, when left to their own devices blokes might not be as bothered as ladies about how they dress and how they look in public...it's not a fact, but just an observation Mrs SILH has made to me.  I took it personally...

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Who cares? 

I'd hardly say the vast majority of golfers would be winning any fashion awards anyway! I can dress up like a clown as long as I follow the 'rules'. And many people do choose to wear clown trousers on the golf course.


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## Robster59 (Jul 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bottom line is that it is probably the case that, in general, when left to their own devices blokes might not be as bothered as ladies about how they dress and how they look in public...it's not a fact, but just an observation Mrs SILH has made to me.  I took it personally...

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Funnily enough my missus says the same, and always checks how I look before going on the course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Funnily enough my missus says the same, and always checks how I look before going on the course.
		
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What happens when you live or have lived in N/M


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## JamesR (Jul 23, 2020)

davidy233 said:



			I take it you mean golf shoes - might be required some places but by no mean necessary
		
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Byron Nelson was famed for only wearing shoes when it was required by rule. Otherwise he preferred to play barefoot.


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## KenL (Jul 23, 2020)

I lived in Hawaii for a bit in the late 90s.
Some of the locals would play in flip flops and t shirts with no sleeves on them.


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## Robster59 (Jul 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What happens when you live or have lived in N/M 

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She doesn't have to say anything.  You just get "the look!"


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## Robster59 (Jul 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 31720

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He could have at least fastened his laces!


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## howbow88 (Jul 23, 2020)

Crumplezone said:



			I don't have a string vest, but regularly play in jeans and a t shirt at several courses that don't have a dress code. I don't even tuck my t shirt in. How is that a problem for anyone else?
		
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If some fuddy duddies turned up to see someone playing golf in jeans, I think they would spontaneously combust. 

When we are in world where golf has to compete for kid's attention with an endless supply of entertainment from their phone, dress codes should be at the very bottom of our priorities.


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## JamesR (Jul 23, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			If some fuddy duddies turned up to see someone playing golf in jeans, I think they would spontaneously combust.

When we are in world where golf has to compete for kid's attention with an endless supply of entertainment from their phone, dress codes should be at the very bottom of our priorities.
		
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As far as I’m aware, at a fair few clubs I know, kids don’t have to abide by the dress codes as strictly as adults.
They can wear trainers, joggers, tee shirts etc
However, they do tend to dress more smartly than a lot of the older members.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 23, 2020)

davidy233 said:



			I take it you mean golf shoes - might be required some places but by no mean necessary
		
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They are nessesary at my club .
Given some of the slopes you would end up on your ar.e if you tried to hit some shots.
I have tried to play in trainers on hot days but you need a flat dry course.


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## Leftie (Jul 23, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			If some fuddy duddies turned up to see someone playing golf in jeans ........
		
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 .... then they would think them idiots.  I can't think of any trouser material more uncomfortable to wear when walking 5 or 6 miles than denim.  And if it gets wet, it stays wet for a long time.  Still, if it floats your boat


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## Kpa77 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.
		
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Yawn you’re pathetic. People should just play golf and enjoy it.


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## howbow88 (Jul 24, 2020)

Leftie said:



			.... then they would think them idiots.  I can't think of any trouser material more uncomfortable to wear when walking 5 or 6 miles than denim.  And if it gets wet, it stays wet for a long time.  Still, if it floats your boat 

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It doesn't 'float my boat'. I really couldn't care less about it, but I'm amazed that anyone does, and several clearly do  What I don't like about it, is the impression it gives potential golfers of this game.


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## Siolag (Jul 24, 2020)

Leftie said:



			.... then they would think them idiots.  I can't think of any trouser material more uncomfortable to wear when walking 5 or 6 miles than denim.  And if it gets wet, it stays wet for a long time.  Still, if it floats your boat 

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Totally agree with this, can’t imagine what jeans would be like to play golf in. Give me some lightweight golf trousers or shorts any day of the week.


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## sammyboy (Jul 24, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You keep going on about how things like not wearing jeans stop people from playing, or looking smart gives a bad impression.

I just don't see that as being true, modern golf clothing is not stuffy or old fashioned.
		
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I broadly agree. But im not sure how i feel about being mandated to wear somerhing for a hobby just because because its functional. 

Folk should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Id still chose a golf shirt, and shorts or trousers. As i like playing in that gear. Id still chose to wear shoes with soft spikes as it works for me. I personally like my golf clothing and find it comfortable. 

But... dress codes do put people off. My girl would have to go out and buy golf shoes if i wanted to take her as a guest. He trainers are not acceptable. Nor could she wear her leggings... (realise that im losing my argument that ladies dress up however they like). If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.


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## Fabia999 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I broadly agree. But im not sure how i feel about being mandated to wear somerhing for a hobby just because because its functional.

Folk should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Id still chose a golf shirt, and shorts or trousers. As i like playing in that gear. Id still chose to wear shoes with soft spikes as it works for me. I personally like my golf clothing and find it comfortable.

But... dress codes do put people off. My girl would have to go out and buy golf shoes if i wanted to take her as a guest. He trainers are not acceptable. Nor could she wear her leggings... (realise that im losing my argument that ladies dress up however they like). *If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.*

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*gets popcorn*


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## Papas1982 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I broadly agree. But im not sure how i feel about being mandated to wear somerhing for a hobby just because because its functional.

Folk should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Id still chose a golf shirt, and shorts or trousers. As i like playing in that gear. Id still chose to wear shoes with soft spikes as it works for me. I personally like my golf clothing and find it comfortable.

But... dress codes do put people off. *My girl would have to go out and buy golf shoes if i wanted to take her as a guest*. He trainers are not acceptable. Nor could she wear her leggings... (realise that im losing my argument that ladies dress up however they like). If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.
		
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If she plays regularly then that may be true, but surely if you're taking her on the course proelry you'll have invested in a lesson or some range time at least. 

I've taken both my daughters (9 and 10) to my place and they've worn clean trainers, a plan collared t shirt and jeggings with no complaints whatsoever.


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## Chico84 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			...If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself...
		
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Wow. I think you need to put the spade down now, nothing good this way lies.


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## sammyboy (Jul 24, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			If she plays regularly then that may be true, but surely if you're taking her on the course proelry you'll have invested in a lesson or some range time at least.

I've taken both my daughters (9 and 10) to my place and they've worn clean trainers, a plan collared t shirt and jeggings with no complaints whatsoever.
		
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Id really hope that for young kids like yours that would be allowed. But at my club im not sure. The pros im sure would ignore it. But some old duffer i am sure would make a comment and complain. 

An adult turning up in leggings or jeggings wouldnt make it onto the first tee. I doubt anyone would actually check the trainers to see if they were golf shoes, but if they looked like trainers its more than possible. 

My partner got shouted at for wearing leggings just when walking with me on a nice evening. He did apologise whe  i had a word with him. 

I dont wear golf clothes or shoes to the range usually. And i didnt have lessons when i started. In fact i sneaked onto golf courses in the evening to learn the game. Which id have no problem with either... id i saw a kid doing this id invite them to join me.


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## Robster59 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I broadly agree. But im not sure how i feel about being mandated to wear somerhing for a hobby just because because its functional.

Folk should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Id still chose a golf shirt, and shorts or trousers. As i like playing in that gear. Id still chose to wear shoes with soft spikes as it works for me. I personally like my golf clothing and find it comfortable.

But... dress codes do put people off. My girl would have to go out and buy golf shoes if i wanted to take her as a guest. He trainers are not acceptable. Nor could she wear her leggings... (realise that im losing my argument that ladies dress up however they like).* If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.*

Click to expand...

Old Proverb: If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!


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## sammyboy (Jul 24, 2020)

Chico84 said:



			Wow. I think you need to put the spade down now, nothing good this way lies.
		
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And if a man has a toned muscular physique then i think tight muscle shirts are fine. For a fat our of shape bloke they look horrific. 

A fat many in skinny jeans also looks stupud. Im saying this as a fat bloke. 

What is the problem with being honest? Obese people and skin tight clothes do not go well together.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You keep going on about how things like not wearing jeans stop people from playing, or looking smart gives a bad impression.

I just don't see that as being true, modern golf clothing is not stuffy or old fashioned.
		
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Yeah, I think there's a dividing line. Most lads have a polo shirt and chinos knocking about, which is good enough for 90% of golf clubs. The only ones that I would say put young people would be the places where they're telling you what colour socks to wear, tuck your t-shirt in, take your hat off indoors and so on. That all seems very old-fashioned.


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## Papas1982 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			Id really hope that for young kids like yours that would be allowed. But at my club im not sure. The pros im sure would ignore it. But some old duffer i am sure would make a comment and complain.

An adult turning up in leggings or jeggings wouldnt make it onto the first tee. I doubt anyone would actually check the trainers to see if they were golf shoes, but if they looked like trainers its more than possible.

My partner got shouted at for wearing leggings just when walking with me on a nice evening. He did apologise whe  i had a word with him.

I dont wear golf clothes or shoes to the range usually. And i didnt have lessons when i started. In fact i sneaked onto golf courses in the evening to learn the game. Which id have no problem with either... id i saw a kid doing this id invite them to join me.
		
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I think an adult being queried for suitable attire is different to kids tbh. I mean I wouldn't push it and take either of the girls in jeans, but most kids have clothing that's close enough imo. 

At my current and previous club the old people have been more than welcoming. In fact the owners wife chatted with my daughter last week whilst walking her dog I the course and the club sec got her an ice lolly.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			And if a man has a toned muscular physique then i think tight muscle shirts are fine. For a fat our of shape bloke they look horrific.

A fat many in skinny jeans also looks stupud. Im saying this as a fat bloke.

What is the problem with being honest? Obese people and skin tight clothes do not go well together.
		
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So you would like the golf club's official written dress code to carry caveats depending on what you look like??   That's borderline facism.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So you would like the golf club's official written dress code to carry caveats depending on what you look like??   That's borderline facism. 

Click to expand...

It could not be written at that point. You would need graphics with a tick or cross going through the picture. How big does the pot / backside have to be before you go into the cross territory . I'd love to see the pro shop policing that one . It would make a very good Harry Enfield sketch.


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## Chico84 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			And if a man has a toned muscular physique then i think tight muscle shirts are fine. For a fat our of shape bloke they look horrific.

A fat many in skinny jeans also looks stupud. Im saying this as a fat bloke.

What is the problem with being honest? Obese people and skin tight clothes do not go well together.
		
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And who shall be the arbiter of this new golf fa(cist)sion world order? It’s golf, not love island.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It could not be written at that point. You would need graphics with a tick or cross going through the picture. How big does the pot / backside have to be before you go into the cross territory . I'd love to see the pro shop policing that one . It would make a very good Harry Enfield sketch.
		
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Yeah, "excuse me where do you think you're going? You need to lose at least half a stone before you can wear them. Says it right here.. now step on these scales."


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## sammyboy (Jul 24, 2020)

Chico84 said:



			And who shall be the arbiter of this new golf fa(cist)sion world order? It’s golf, not love island.
		
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Id say its common sense and most peoole with a functional brain wouldnt dress in tight clothes if they look like the michelin man. 

If people want to dress us in lycra and are obese then let them. But they shoukdnt complain when they get ridiculed for doing so.


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## Chico84 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			Id say its common sense and most peoole with a functional brain wouldnt dress in tight clothes if they look like the michelin man.

If people want to dress us in lycra and are obese then let them. But they shoukdnt complain when they get ridiculed for doing so.
		
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Perhaps we shouldn’t be ridiculing anyone for what they wear or how they look. Just a thought.


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## sammyboy (Jul 24, 2020)

Chico84 said:



			Perhaps we shouldn’t be ridiculing anyone for what they wear or how they look. Just a thought.
		
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When standing with your mates on the first tee if someone tops their drive 30 yards do you take the micheal? Assuming that person isnt a brand new golfer or a stranger? 

If i put on a load of lycra to go cycling my girl would ridicule me merciously. And id find it funny as well. 

What is the problem with having a joke and making fun of things? I am the highest handicapper with my regualr group playing off 11. I get ripped all the time for being a hacker. I enjoy the banter personally.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

Anyone running low on popcorn? This one is still delivering


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2020)

My club has a rule that 'golf attire' must be worn on the golf course. 

In fairness, I've never seen it challenged, but given you see the pros wearing joggers, hoodies, collarless shirts & Nike air max trainers - golf attire is basically a catch all term for all appropriate leisure wear. i.e. no shoes that will damage the course, no sandals, no football or rugby tops, no jeans etc. 

I guess if you wore a collarless shirt, you could justify it if it was golf attire rather than street fashion.


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## TheJezster (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			I broadly agree. But im not sure how i feel about being mandated to wear somerhing for a hobby just because because its functional.

Folk should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Id still chose a golf shirt, and shorts or trousers. As i like playing in that gear. Id still chose to wear shoes with soft spikes as it works for me. I personally like my golf clothing and find it comfortable.

But... dress codes do put people off. My girl would have to go out and buy golf shoes if i wanted to take her as a guest. He trainers are not acceptable. Nor could she wear her leggings... (realise that im losing my argument that ladies dress up however they like). If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.
		
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Mate, just shut up while you're behind!! 
Your views are completely outdated! 
You don't mind seeing women in leggings IF they have a good body!?? Do you actually read what you write? 🙄


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## TheJezster (Jul 24, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Do all the people posting about the "stuffy" image of golf actually watch any of it on TV???

The days of the middle aged golfer with baggy clothes being the "main man" is 20 years out of date.

The players youngsters idolise now are mainly  20something, good looking, slim, fit and very cool, rich guys who look immaculate in  their slim-fitting gear which includes, horror of horror 🤪 shirts tucked in.

To try to shift the reason for wanting to be scruffy onto "growing the game" is way 📴 the mark in my view.

EDIT : 24 years
		
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Much of what you generally write is pretty accurate I find. I don't necessarily agree with everything, however, this post is a perfect example of being in a bubble and not being able to see what it looks like from outside. 

Yes, the players these days on TV look cool etc. No issues there. The problem is that club golf isn't seen on TV and the fact is, it IS very much still seen as stuffy and elitist by many people (rightly or wrongly) but it is seen that way. 

For golf to change it needs people not involved in the game to help it change its image, not people in it who think they know what people want etc. 

We're going in the right direction, but we're not there yet


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			And if a man has a toned muscular physique then i think tight muscle shirts are fine. For a fat our of shape bloke they look horrific.

A fat many in skinny jeans also looks stupud. Im saying this as a fat bloke.

What is the problem with being honest? Obese people and skin tight clothes do not go well together.
		
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Fashion Police.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			My club has a rule that 'golf attire' must be worn on the golf course.

I guess if you wore a collarless shirt, you could justify it if it was golf attire rather than street fashion.
		
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Last year when we had a spell of it being very hot I was struggling in the heat with my regular golf tops. I talked to our manager and asked where the club stood with collarless style tops. He repeated your comment, 'you can wear any golf attire'. 'Like Tiger?' I asked. 'Any golf attire'. I then bent that slightly by wearing a collarless Nike running t-shirt, the ones that have a type of slight mesh around the back and sides but I would have argued it was a Tiger Nike top if questioned . It looked the same so does it matter if running or playing golf? Anyway, much more comfortable in that sort of heat, they are ridiculously light.

As you point out, the likes of Tony Finau, Ricky Fowler, Tiger, Phil push the boundaries so golf attire covers many fashions now. I think it is a good phrase as it accounts for changes in time whereas specifically mentioned items can remain stuck on a dress code well beyond their sell by date, as we see so often.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			He could have at least fastened his laces! 

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Not quite what Harry Vardon was thinking when he suggested that it was better to wear braces than a belt - besides - where's the jacket he should also be wearing according to Vardon's Edwardian golfing dress code...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You keep going on about how things like not wearing jeans stop people from playing, or looking smart gives a bad impression.

I just don't see that as being true, modern golf clothing is not stuffy or old fashioned.
		
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Indeed - just refelcting on my knock yesterday evening - I was out with a couple of mates - and the majority on the course seemed to be younger-  let's say 25yrs or less.  All looked relaxed and cool in shirts (mostly tucked in  ), shorts - and ankle or trainer socks.  No-one I saw in shorts was wearing calf or knee length socks - and all according to our dress code. All tidy and cool.  Tick.  Nothing stuffy at all.  And the ladies on the course looked just as comfortably and nicely dressed and well presented 

note - IMO jeans are the worse form of trouser to play golf in...too heavy, warm and dreadful when they get wet.  That said - I would allow juniors to wear jeans if they wanted to.  They won't be dirty.   And folk who want to be able to choose whatever they want to wear on a golf course simply need to find one that accommodates their wishes.  They number a-plenty. Dead easy.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Last year when we had a spell of it being very hot I was struggling in the heat with my regular golf tops. I talked to our manager and asked where the club stood with collarless style tops. He repeated your comment, 'you can wear any golf attire'. 'Like Tiger?' I asked. 'Any golf attire'. I then bent that slightly by wearing a collarless Nike running t-shirt, the ones that have a type of slight mesh around the back and sides but I would have argued it was a Tiger Nike top if questioned . It looked the same so does it matter if running or playing golf? Anyway, much more comfortable in that sort of heat, they are ridiculously light.

As you point out, the likes of Tony Finau, Ricky Fowler, Tiger, Phil push the boundaries so golf attire covers many fashions now. I think it is a good phrase as it accounts for changes in time whereas specifically mentioned items can remain stuck on a dress code well beyond their sell by date, as we see so often.
		
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The only difference between golf shirts and running shirts _is _the collar nowadays. All my golf shirts are polyester, or polyester/elastane blend, exactly the same as the sports tops that I own. In fact the collar can help keep the sun off your neck.


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## TheJezster (Jul 24, 2020)

I don't think the anti jeans brigade realise that jeans come in many different weights and thickness these days... I'm not even sure when I last saw a pair of heavy denim!! 

Jeans these days are no more inappropriate to wear for golf than chinos. 

As for the weather, doesn't anybody actually look at the forecast first to determine the most likely outcome!? 🤣🤣

All these "nothing worse than wet jeans" people, do you often get caught out by the rain in not suitable clothing?


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			I don't think the anti jeans brigade realise that jeans come in many different weights and thickness these days... I'm not even sure when I last saw a pair of heavy denim!!

Jeans these days are no more inappropriate to wear for golf than chinos.

As for the weather, doesn't anybody actually look at the forecast first to determine the most likely outcome!? 🤣🤣

All these "nothing worse than wet jeans" people, do you often get caught out by the rain in not suitable clothing?
		
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This is England mate, can't rely on weather forecasts. And I don't own any waterproof trousers or anything personally, I just wear shorts and if my legs get wet they tend to dry out pretty quick.


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## TheJezster (Jul 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			This is England mate, can't rely on weather forecasts. And I don't own any waterproof trousers or anything personally, I just wear shorts and if my legs get wet they tend to dry out pretty quick. 

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. You're not likely to wear jeans if it might rain!! 

Shorts is perfect, skin dries quicker than material


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			The only difference between golf shirts and running shirts _is _the collar nowadays. All my golf shirts are polyester, or polyester/elastane blend, exactly the same as the sports tops that I own. In fact the collar can help keep the sun off your neck. 

Click to expand...

I'd disagree with that. I have a few of these t-shirts now for holidays. I 'glow' quite a lot in hot weather and these are a big help. They are definitely thinner and lighter than my golf tops, same material. It is not surprising. Golf tops are designed for use in all 4 seasons so they will be a compromise weight. The running tops are designed to be worn for people who are going to sweat more, get hot etc. so they only have to be designed to cope with a hot situation.


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## Orikoru (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd disagree with that. I have a few of these t-shirts now for holidays. I 'glow' quite a lot in hot weather and these are a big help. They are definitely thinner and lighter than my golf tops, same material. It is not surprising. Golf tops are designed for use in all 4 seasons so they will be a compromise weight. The running tops are designed to be worn for people who are going to sweat more, get hot etc. so they only have to be designed to cope with a hot situation.
		
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Well yeah, some running tops are basically mesh. But most of my golf tops that I've bought are really quite thin.  I don't need them to be thicker in winter as I wear a tight underlayer and a gilet.


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## Robster59 (Jul 24, 2020)

I think this has now drifted off-topic a bit from someone who complained about women having priority to complaining about wear on the course, to complaining about how they look in different types of clothing.  You just knew right from the start that this one would run and run.  

I'm not really aware nowadays of many golf courses that require knee length socks.  Most are happy with ankle length or even shoe socks.  For Polo shirts, I tend to wear heavier ones when it's cooler and the ones that wick moisture away when the weather is hotter.  I use collars and a fedora or panama hat as I burn badly and use Factor 50+ on the course so the collar can go up to protect my neck a little more. 

Trousers, heavier, water resistant for when the weather is inclement, to lighter ones when it's moderate to shorts (with ankle socks) when it's hot.  Again suitable 50+'d up.  

Golf shoes, I tend to wear soft-spikes in summer and hybrid spikes in the winter as it's quite a hilly course and I've seen what happens to people when they slip and fall.  Anything from ripped trousers to broken ankles and arms.  

None of this is onerous to me.  I have my clothes for golf and, generally, that's all I wear them for.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd disagree with that. I have a few of these t-shirts now for holidays. I 'glow' quite a lot in hot weather and these are a big help. They are definitely thinner and lighter than my golf tops, same material. It is not surprising. Golf tops are designed for use in all 4 seasons so they will be a compromise weight. The running tops are designed to be worn for people who are going to sweat more, get hot etc. so they only have to be designed to cope with a hot situation.
		
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Under Armour do different weight fabrics for hot and cold weather ,they are very good but as with all golf stuff seems to be getting very expensive again.
Fashion from the tour takes time to filter down to club golfers.
All the young lads at mine wear jeans to play , but they are made by Armani / Hugo Boss etc and they all look smart.
We let the kids wear what they want. 
No shirts hanging out at mine , I think it looks terrible but would not challenge anyone else’s fashion choice.
As for the overweight members they should be able to wear what they want as long as they are happy with their fashion choices.
We have a dress code but it is a relaxed one.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			Exactly my point. You're not likely to wear jeans if it might rain!!

Shorts is perfect, skin dries quicker than material
		
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I can’t play in shorts the horse flies won’t leave me alone.
I like the Adidas 365 trousers, very light and comfy.


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## KenL (Jul 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I can’t play in shorts the horse flies won’t leave me alone.
I like the Adidas 365 trousers, very light and comfy.
		
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I've had a few bites from those critters.  Nasty!


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

KenL said:



			I've had a few bites from those critters.  Nasty!
		
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I was bitten on the back of my knee a few times.
I couldn’t walk the next day ,my knee was so swollen .
So no shorts anymore for me.
I seem to have a very bad reaction to them,


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## howbow88 (Jul 24, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You keep going on about how things like not wearing jeans stop people from playing, or looking smart gives a bad impression.

I just don't see that as being true, modern golf clothing is not stuffy or old fashioned.
		
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'I keep going on about it.' No I don't - I've posted about it a few times on here. 

Looking 'smart' doesn't give a bad impression at all, and I never said it does. I do think though that clubs that have archaic rules like no caps in the clubhouse, no jeans, etc, do give golf a bad name to non-golfers. And some non-golfers are potential golfers. 

I agree by the way that modern golf clothing is definitely different to what was worn in the seventies. Hilariously though, there are still several clubs in the UK that according to their rules, would not allow Tiger Woods to rock up in his red shirts because they don't have a collar


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## sunshine (Jul 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was bitten on the back of my knee a few times.
I couldn’t walk the next day ,my knee was so swollen .
So no shorts anymore for me.
I seem to have a very bad reaction to them,
		
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Insect repellant? Works very well.

I carry a spray in my bag for evening golf when the insects seem to come out, especially as my course plays around several lakes (never actually use it - probably another thread about pointless stuff in the bag)


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## sunshine (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd disagree with that. I have a few of these t-shirts now for holidays. I 'glow' quite a lot in hot weather and these are a big help. They are definitely thinner and lighter than my golf tops, same material. It is not surprising. Golf tops are designed for use in all 4 seasons so they will be a compromise weight. The running tops are designed to be worn for people who are going to sweat more, get hot etc. so they only have to be designed to cope with a hot situation.
		
Click to expand...

The answer is to have several different types of golf shirts, including lighter weight mesh tops for hot days. I have some very thin breathable Adidas and Puma tops that are similar to football shirts / running tops and have mesh panels on the sides and back.

Anyway, aren't you based up north? Temperature probably never gets above 20 anyway


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## Chico84 (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			When standing with your mates on the first tee if someone tops their drive 30 yards do you take the micheal? Assuming that person isnt a brand new golfer or a stranger?

If i put on a load of lycra to go cycling my girl would ridicule me merciously. And id find it funny as well.

What is the problem with having a joke and making fun of things? I am the highest handicapper with my regualr group playing off 11. I get ripped all the time for being a hacker. I enjoy the banter personally.
		
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You enjoy the banter. With your mates. 

Not everyone does, especially when it’s from complete strangers. It stops being banter. Especially when it focuses on someone’s appearance, and particularly when there is a constant social pressure against liking a certain way. 

Mandating what people can and can’t wear based on your own view of what is attractive or not is just archaic.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Anyway, aren't you based up north? Temperature probably never gets above 20 anyway 

Click to expand...

Sometimes it gets close to 20°C though and we are not built for that up here. 18°C is close to a heatwave, no more required


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## larmen (Jul 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			The only difference between golf shirts and running shirts _is _the collar nowadays. All my golf shirts are polyester, or polyester/elastane blend, exactly the same as the sports tops that I own. In fact the collar can help keep the sun off your neck. 

Click to expand...

They are not just polyesters, they are dry-fit or clima-cool or whatever term each marketing team has trademark on ;-)

Cotton or wool for exercising are a past thing.

But I like to think that running shirts are not best suited for swinging. I used to wear them at the range but it didn’t feel right, now exclusively go in golf polos.


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## KenL (Jul 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was bitten on the back of my knee a few times.
I couldn’t walk the next day ,my knee was so swollen .
So no shorts anymore for me.
I seem to have a very bad reaction to them,
		
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I end up with a bruise on my leg and bite point can look pretty nasty. Takes a couple of weeks to settle down completely.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 24, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			'I keep going on about it.' No I don't - I've posted about it a few times on here.

Looking 'smart' doesn't give a bad impression at all, and I never said it does. I do think though that clubs that have archaic rules like no caps in the clubhouse, no jeans, etc, do give golf a bad name to non-golfers. And some non-golfers are potential golfers.

I agree by the way that modern golf clothing is definitely different to what was worn in the seventies. Hilariously though, there are still several clubs in the UK that according to their rules, *would not allow Tiger Woods to rock up in his red shirts because they don't have a collar* 

Click to expand...

They do have a collar, it’s a blade collar and is larger than the standard collar on a “normal” t-shirt.

As for caps indoors, why does anyone need a hat indoors?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			As for caps indoors, why does anyone need a hat indoors?
		
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Come on old man, it looks cool 

On a semi serious note, why is any accessory required? It is fashion, no more. I take my cap off as soon as I finish so it does not affect me but I genuinely don't see the issue. Lots of people, teens, early 20's wear caps constantly. Why block them from wearing one? Having to take a hat off indoors is a hang up from the 50's, irrelevant now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on old man, it looks cool 

Click to expand...

Especially when worn backwards.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Especially when worn backwards.

Click to expand...

You've smashed it there


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

KenL said:



			I end up with a bruise on my leg and bite point can look pretty nasty. Takes a couple of weeks to settle down completely.
		
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Yes me to.
I am comfy in my trousers and not looking if anything’s on my leg all the time.
That is really off putting.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on old man, it looks cool 

On a semi serious note, why is any accessory required? It is fashion, no more. I take my cap off as soon as I finish so it does not affect me but I genuinely don't see the issue. Lots of people, teens, early 20's wear caps constantly. Why block them from wearing one? Having to take a hat off indoors is a hang up from the 50's, irrelevant now.
		
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Golf tan.
See Harry Enfield sketch.


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## Robster59 (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on old man, it looks cool 

On a semi serious note, why is any accessory required? It is fashion, no more. I take my cap off as soon as I finish so it does not affect me but I genuinely don't see the issue. Lots of people, teens, early 20's wear caps constantly. Why block them from wearing one? Having to take a hat off indoors is a hang up from the 50's, irrelevant now.
		
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If I see anyone wearing a hat in a car, I tend to avoid them due to past experience.  That can be baseball cap, flat cap, trilby or whatever.  
As for wearing a cap indoors, it just has to be handled in the right manner.


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## Liverbirdie (Jul 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They do have a collar, it’s a blade collar and is larger than the standard collar on a “normal” t-shirt.

As for caps indoors, why does anyone need a hat indoors?
		
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Ken Dodd's diddy men?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2020)

I practice sexual discrimination at my golf club - I try to greet and speak with every lady member I come across - because they always smile back nicely and return the greeting - besides - IMO it is most important to be know, and if at all possible to be on friendly chatting terms, with as many lady members as possible.


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## Robster59 (Jul 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I practice sexual discrimination at my golf club - I try to greet and speak with every lady member I come across - because they always smile back nicely and return the greeting - besides - IMO it is most important to be know, and if at all possible to be on friendly chatting terms, with as many lady members as possible. 

Click to expand...

As a matter of interest, as a group, how do you greet them?  I always say "Hello Ladies".  The reason I ask is that I was driving to the office one day listening to a Radio 4 programme and the women on there considered it to be a derogatory or patronising term which surprised me.  So I spoke to the women in the office when I got there and asked them their opinion, and they were all shocked as they said they considered it to be a very polite greeting.  Mind you, I often greet a bunch of men as Gents or Gentlemen.  Even if I know they're not.


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## patricks148 (Jul 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			As a matter of interest, as a group, how do you greet them? * I always say "Hello Ladies"*.  The reason I ask is that I was driving to the office one day listening to a Radio 4 programme and the women on there considered it to be a derogatory or patronising term which surprised me.  So I spoke to the women in the office when I got there and asked them their opinion, and they were all shocked as they said they considered it to be a very polite greeting.  Mind you, I often greet a bunch of men as Gents or Gentlemen.  Even if I know they're not. 

Click to expand...

i suppose it would depend if you were twiddling the end of your tash and saying it it a low tone at the same time


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			As a matter of interest, as a group, how do you greet them?  I always say "Hello Ladies".  The reason I ask is that I was driving to the office one day listening to a Radio 4 programme and the women on there considered it to be a derogatory or patronising term which surprised me.  So I spoke to the women in the office when I got there and asked them their opinion, and they were all shocked as they said they considered it to be a very polite greeting.  Mind you, I often greet a bunch of men as Gents or Gentlemen.  Even if I know they're not. 

Click to expand...

What did the women on the R4 programme prefer as the term to use?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 24, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ken Dodd's diddy men?
		
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They were miner’s, they were safety hats.


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## Lazkir (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What did the women on the R4 programme prefer as the term to use?
		
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If you don't already know, then they aren't going to tell you!


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## Fish (Jul 24, 2020)

sammyboy said:



			If a women has a good body i see no problem with gym leggings myself - they are perfectly functional and comfortable. I have my suspicions that the rule on leggings is due to larger older ladies not looking so good in them.
		
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Can you put a photo up of your girlfriend in leggings so I can visualize the point your are making 😜


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## Fish (Jul 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was bitten on the back of my knee a few times.
I couldn’t walk the next day ,my knee was so swollen .
So no shorts anymore for me.
I seem to have a very bad reaction to them,
		
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I was bitten on my arm a few years ago, it swelled up twice the width, I played the rest of my round with my fly undone 😳😜


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## howbow88 (Jul 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They do have a collar, it’s a blade collar and is larger than the standard collar on a “normal” t-shirt.

As for caps indoors, why does anyone need a hat indoors?
		
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Blade collar 

No one needs to wear a hat indoors, just like no one needs to care if anyone wears one inside


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			As a matter of interest, as a group, how do you greet them?  I always say "Hello Ladies".  The reason I ask is that I was driving to the office one day listening to a Radio 4 programme and the women on there considered it to be a derogatory or patronising term which surprised me.  So I spoke to the women in the office when I got there and asked them their opinion, and they were all shocked as they said they considered it to be a very polite greeting.  Mind you, I often greet a bunch of men as Gents or Gentlemen.  Even if I know they're not. 

Click to expand...

Yes - it's always a 'good morning/afternoon ladies...' - said of course in my very best Glasgow Southside suburbs accent - which some on here will know well - and that seems to be well received by Surrey and Hampshire ladies


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## Robster59 (Jul 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What did the women on the R4 programme prefer as the term to use?
		
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To be honest I can't remember.  I wish I could. I don't think it was girlies or sweetheart though


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## Babyliss (Nov 24, 2020)

I absolutely agree with you


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## Sats (Nov 25, 2020)

The one thing I'd like to see if HCP based tees rather than ladies and mens tees. At my club there a lot of men whom could do with playing off the reds, and likewise there are women whom would like to play of the whites/yellows.


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2020)

The halfway hit at Bearwood Lakes has separate toilets for men and women. The mens toilet has a small notice saying 'Please close the door while using the facilities' or words to that effect. The women's toilet doesn't. It is an outrage.


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## Parsaregood (Nov 25, 2020)

Sats said:



			The one thing I'd like to see if HCP based tees rather than ladies and mens tees. At my club there a lot of men whom could do with playing off the reds, and likewise there are women whom would like to play of the whites/yellows.
		
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Let’s be honest the red tees will always be the ladies tees 😂 and will always be called such by myself. I even call the yellow tees the ladies tees and pretty much only ever play off the medal tees. What’s the point playing bounce games off a shorter course then playing a longer one in a comp, just play the comp course all the time and it’s just another game. If you need a 54 handicap you shouldn’t be on a golf course is also true, I was better than that when I was 7, any adult who needs 54 strokes needs a new hobby


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## Bdill93 (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Let’s be honest the red tees will always be the ladies tees 😂 and will always be called such by myself. I even call the yellow tees the ladies tees and pretty much only ever play off the medal tees. What’s the point playing bounce games off a shorter course then playing a longer one in a comp, just play the comp course all the time and it’s just another game. *If you need a 54 handicap you shouldn’t be on a golf course is also true*, I was better than that when I was 7, any adult who needs 54 strokes needs a new hobby
		
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I agree about playing from your comp tees. I only play off yellow when my friends who purely play for fun 5x a year join me. 

I really hope the bold is meant in jest. Those are some of the most elitest comments ive read, get a grip of yourself mate, we dont all start playing golf in our infancy, some people start out as bad golfers, simple as. No one wants to be off 54, but if thats what you need to get around the course then so be it.


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## IanM (Nov 25, 2020)

Sats said:



			The one thing I'd like to see if HCP based tees rather than ladies and mens tees. At my club there a lot of men whom could do with playing off the reds, and likewise there are women whom would like to play of the whites/yellows.
		
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You are right... we have several very low handicap ladies who play off our back tees and several elderly members (both men and women) who would enjoy their game more if they played a shorter course!!


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## Imurg (Nov 25, 2020)

Sats said:



			The one thing I'd like to see if HCP based tees rather than ladies and mens tees. At my club there a lot of men whom could do with playing off the reds, and likewise there are women whom would like to play of the whites/yellows.
		
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Only thing about this is I'd change it to ability rather than handicap as the 2 aren't necessarily the same.
Some 28 handicappers can hit it a long way and straight but have the touch of Godzilla around the greens.
They'd be driving some of our greens from the reds...Still taking 5 to get down but..
Some lower handicappers are short off the tee but their wedges are a magic wand.
Lumping everyone by handicap is almost the same as lumping everyone by gender
It requires honesty from players.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 25, 2020)

A 54 handicap person who keeps it on the fairway, plays within themselves and obeys the rules and etiquette has every right to be on a golf course.

If the handicap is 54 due to the fact 3 balls are lost of every other tee trying to bash a driver 300 yards then there may be a cause to advise them they may have more fun at a driving range.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 25, 2020)

My partner has just taken up the game, and after a good year's hard practice on a little nine hole course, has taken the plunge, and joined a "proper" golf club. It's one with a "THE" in front of it's name, so you can tell it's posh!
Imagine her surprise, when, after handing three cards in, (just before the BIG change), she was given a 45 handicap. She has learned all about speed of play, and I am more than happy to play with her for a fun round. No issue whatsoever with sex discrimination from my part. However, I do agree. If a male needs 54 strokes, perhaps he should spend more time on the range, and some money on lessons.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2020)

am kinda surprised looking at how a 54 handicapper should not be on a course. Does a hcap of 54 mean a slow round, trust me Ave played all year behind a 13 handicapper and he and his group are purgatory to follow. Does 54 hcap mean slow, No it don’t. So why should he or her not play. I am more concerned if a 54 hcap person has a good course etiquette and ready to play attitude than how many shots he takes to get around the course. 
Again re 54 hcap, if that is not ok to be on the course, what is 50, 40, 30 hcap. We have all started somewhere.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 25, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I really hope the bold is meant in jest. Those are some of the most elitest comments ive read, get a grip of yourself mate, we dont all start playing golf in our infancy, some people start out as bad golfers, simple as. No one wants to be off 54, but if thats what you need to get around the course then so be it.
		
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Ignore him/her, he/she often posts stuff like this to get a reaction.


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## Ser Shankalot (Nov 25, 2020)

I’ve read that some courses require visitors to have minimum formal handicaps to play? Are they ever enforced or is it more to deter folks who are unlikely to follow etiquette?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2020)

Ser Shankalot said:



			I’ve read that some courses require visitors to have minimum formal handicaps to play? Are they ever enforced or is it more to deter folks who are unlikely to follow etiquette?
		
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I suspect the latter. I know I have never been asked to show a handicap certificate. The one place I would not chance, others on here may be able to answer this, is Sunningdale which has an 18 limit. To have such a low figure compared to other courses suggests they may enforce it although I don't know that for sure.

On a similar note I wonder if they will alter that to mean 18 using your HI and their chart or simply a HI of 18? If they mean it then it will need to be the former as I am sure the chart will give a few extra shots when playing there.


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## Imurg (Nov 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect the latter. I know I have never been asked to show a handicap certificate. The one place I would not chance, others on here may be able to answer this, is Sunningdale which has an 18 limit. To have such a low figure compared to other courses suggests they may enforce it although I don't know that for sure.

On a similar note I wonder if they will alter that to mean 18 using your HI and their chart or simply a HI of 18? If they mean it then it will need to be the former as I am sure the chart will give a few extra shots when playing there.
		
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Fragger played Sunningdale last year and he's rarely been within a mile of 18..


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Fragger played Sunningdale last year and he's rarely been within a mile of 18..
		
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It's a bucket list place for me but I am just over the limit and the thought of turning up for 2 days of golf only to be turned away would be a total shocker, pride, expense the works. I wish they would remove the statement it if it is not enforced


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## Parsaregood (Nov 25, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I agree about playing from your comp tees. I only play off yellow when my friends who purely play for fun 5x a year join me.

I really hope the bold is meant in jest. Those are some of the most elitest comments ive read, get a grip of yourself mate, we dont all start playing golf in our infancy, some people start out as bad golfers, simple as. No one wants to be off 54, but if thats what you need to get around the course then so be it.
		
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Na sorry mate if you require a 54 handicap golf is simply not for you. To take 3 strokes a hole is borderline ridiculous, I’m not elitist in anyway I’m just giving my opinion. Go and play a pitch and putt course or go to the driving range until you can at least make contact with the ball. How someone could enjoy play golf so badly is beyond me


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## SaintHacker (Nov 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Fragger played Sunningdale last year and he's rarely been within a mile of 18..
		
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Apparently he had a Mod exemption


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## Imurg (Nov 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a bucket list place for me but I am just over the limit and the thought of turning up for 2 days of golf only to be turned away would be a total shocker, pride, expense the works. I wish they would remove the statement it if it is not enforced
		
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One of my pet hates.
Often says Handicap Certificate Required or they show a handicap limit - rarely are they ever checked..
I think it's to put off the nomads who " can't be bothered to join a club" or, more likely, to keep the riff raff out.
It's almost as if being a member of a club and having a handicap makes you a better person...


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## Imurg (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Na sorry mate if you require a 54 handicap golf is simply not for you. To take 3 strokes a hole is borderline ridiculous, I’m not elitist in anyway I’m just giving my opinion. Go and play a pitch and putt course or go to the driving range until you can at least make contact with the ball. How someone could enjoy play golf so badly is beyond me
		
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But you're not elitist.....
What should be the highest handicap then.?


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## SaintHacker (Nov 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It's almost as if being a member of a club and having a handicap makes you a better person...
		
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It does, but only if your off 53 or under...


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Na sorry mate if you require a 54 handicap golf is simply not for you. To take 3 strokes a hole is borderline ridiculous, I’m not elitist in anyway I’m just giving my opinion. Go and play a pitch and putt course or go to the driving range until you can at least make contact with the ball. How someone could enjoy play golf so badly is beyond me
		
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Imurg said:



			But you're not elitist.....
What should be the highest handicap then.?
		
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I think they should have made 36 the maximum. Two shots a hole is plenty - remember that that gives you a point for triple bogey, which is fine. I don't agree that someone at 54 hcap level shouldn't be on the course - in that respect, only pace of play and etiquette really matters rather than ability. But with regards to pace of play, I'm not sure if more people putting out for quad bogeys really helps. By all means let everyone play but I think 36 is a good starting point and something to aim at if you're not there already.

Not sure how this relates to sex discrimination but anyway.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			am kinda surprised looking at how a 54 handicapper should not be on a course. Does a hcap of 54 mean a slow round, trust me Ave played all year behind a 13 handicapper and he and his group are purgatory to follow. Does 54 hcap mean slow, No it don’t. So why should he or her not play. I am more concerned if a 54 hcap person has a good course etiquette and ready to play attitude than how many shots he takes to get around the course.
Again re 54 hcap, if that is not ok to be on the course, what is 50, 40, 30 hcap. We have all started somewhere.
		
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I do think sometimes is it enjoyable playing with 3 shots a hole.?
But that’s up to the player involved .
Everyone has a right to play as you say ,as long as they keep up with the game in front and etiquette is ok.

The slowest player I ever played with was +2 cap he was hard work.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect the latter. I know I have never been asked to show a handicap certificate. The one place I would not chance, others on here may be able to answer this, is Sunningdale which has an 18 limit. To have such a low figure compared to other courses suggests they may enforce it although I don't know that for sure.

On a similar note I wonder if they will alter that to mean 18 using your HI and their chart or simply a HI of 18? If they mean it then it will need to be the former as I am sure the chart will give a few extra shots when playing there.
		
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What about those pro ams where some of them have never held a club in their lives.
Money talks.
Do they have any members over 18 I wonder.
So if you go to 18.5 your out..


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## Bdill93 (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Na sorry mate if you require a 54 handicap golf is simply not for you. To take 3 strokes a hole is borderline ridiculous, *I’m not elitist in anyway* I’m just giving my opinion. Go and play a pitch and putt course or go to the driving range until you can at least make contact with the ball. How someone could enjoy play golf so badly is beyond me
		
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*Dumb quote of the day goes to......*

I know plenty of 54 handicap ability players that strike a ball fine, just wayward and inconsistent, poor short game and putting. Enjoyment isnt measured using ability like on the "parsaregood" enjoyment scale, if it was, god it'd be a miserable world.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Na sorry mate if you require a 54 handicap golf is simply not for you. To take 3 strokes a hole is borderline ridiculous, I’m not elitist in anyway I’m just giving my opinion. Go and play a pitch and putt course or go to the driving range until you can at least make contact with the ball. How someone could enjoy play golf so badly is beyond me
		
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I see your point.
As I have said before “ I gave up snooker because I was crap”
But if they enjoy it , they pay their money just like us.


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



*Dumb quote of the day goes to......*

I know plenty of 54 handicap ability players that strike a ball fine, just wayward and inconsistent, poor short game and putting. Enjoyment isnt measured using ability like on the "parsaregood" enjoyment scale, if it was, god it'd be a miserable world.
		
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I'm not arguing with the sentiment, but I highly doubt anyone is at 54 handicap just because their short game isn't the best. My wife has played golf once in her life, could barely strike it off the ground and no more than about 80 yards off the deck - and she only finished 60 over par. I think you were exaggerating there.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I'm not arguing with the sentiment, but I highly doubt anyone is at 54 handicap just because their short game isn't the best. My wife has played golf once in her life, could barely strike it off the ground and no more than about 80 yards off the deck - and she only finished 60 over par. I think you were exaggerating there. 

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First time out and you made her mark a card.
Was that to stop her coming again?


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			First time out and you made her mark a card.
Was that to stop her coming again?

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Don't understand? Why would you not keep score, what's the point of playing?


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## Ssshank (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I think they should have made 36 the maximum. Two shots a hole is plenty - remember that that gives you a point for triple bogey, which is fine. I don't agree that someone at 54 hcap level shouldn't be on the course - in that respect, only pace of play and etiquette really matters rather than ability. But with regards to pace of play, I'm not sure if more people putting out for quad bogeys really helps. By all means let everyone play but I think 36 is a good starting point and something to aim at if you're not there already.

Not sure how this relates to sex discrimination but anyway.
		
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I'm not bothered what someone's handicap is as long they aren't slow/ have decent etiquette.

I've played scratch matches against + handicaps and it has been unbearable and I've played with 30+ and loved every minute of it.

I think for comps it should be capped at 20 to win prizes, although those that are higher can enter for handicap purposes.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Don't understand? Why would you not keep score, what's the point of playing?
		
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The only time I mark a card is in a comp.
I just try different shots etc when not competing.
A brand new player first game has enough to think about than marking a card imo.
But we’re all different.


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The only time I mark a card is in a comp.
I just try different shots etc when not competing.
A brand new player first game has enough to think about than marking a card imo.
But we’re all different.
		
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I can't understand that, personally. If I'm not keeping score then I'm not really play the game. Would be like meeting someone for a game of tennis and just batting the ball back and forth. Or a football match where none of the goals count and nobody wins. Pointless. Even if I'm just titting about on my own and practising I still count what my score is with my main golf ball. I dunno, it's just that the idea of golf is getting it in the hole in the fewest shots you can, and if you don't know how many shots, then you're not really playing golf? Don't think I've ever not counted my score. I've gave up counting the score half way through, that's different.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I can't understand that, personally. If I'm not keeping score then I'm not really play the game. Would be like meeting someone for a game of tennis and just batting the ball back and forth. Or a football match where none of the goals count and nobody wins. Pointless. Even if I'm just titting about on my own and practising I still count what my score is with my main golf ball. I dunno, it's just that the idea of golf is getting it in the hole in the fewest shots you can, and if you don't know how many shots, then you're not really playing golf? Don't think I've ever not counted my score. I've gave up counting the score half way through, that's different. 

Click to expand...

Most of the time in winter I don’t even take my putter .
Especially when greens are tined slit etc .
I like to play two balls ,one fade one draw it’s just practicing while having a walk.


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## Wilson (Nov 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about those pro ams where some of them have never held a club in their lives.
Money talks.
Do they have any members over 18 I wonder.
So if you go to 18.5 your out..
		
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Pretty sure you have to be 12 or under to be considered for membership.


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## sunshine (Nov 25, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			f you need a 54 handicap you shouldn’t be on a golf course is also true, I was better than that when I was 7, any adult who needs 54 strokes needs a new hobby
		
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Controversial statement but I agree. 54 handicap means the player has the_ potential _to shoot 126, but is probably going to score higher most of the time.

There is no shame in being a complete beginner and hacking it around in 130+, but you're probably better off on a shorter course or pitch and putt and work up to a full course. Children don't play football on a full size pitch, novice skiers don't start off on black runs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I can't understand that, personally. If I'm not keeping score then I'm not really play the game. Would be like meeting someone for a game of tennis and just batting the ball back and forth. Or a football match where none of the goals count and nobody wins. Pointless. Even if I'm just titting about on my own and practising I still count what my score is with my main golf ball. I dunno, it's just that the idea of golf is getting it in the hole in the fewest shots you can, and if you don't know how many shots, then you're not really playing golf? Don't think I've ever not counted my score. I've gave up counting the score half way through, that's different. 

Click to expand...

But you aren't "really playing golf" if you are playing more than one ball but only keeping score with your "main ball".

Surely there is only any real point in keeping a score if you are strictly adhering to the Rules of Golf i.e. no gimmes,  mulligans or practising on the course, thereby replicating competition conditions.


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## USER1999 (Nov 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But you aren't "really playing golf" if you are playing more than one ball but only keeping score with your "main ball".

Surely there is only any real point in keeping a score if you are strictly adhering to the Rules of Golf i.e. no gimmes,  mulligans or practising on the course, thereby replicating competition conditions.
		
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Also, golf becomes very one dimensional, when all you do is keep score. I like to try diffrrent approaches to holes, play different shots, that may be are not the % choice. Take on silly shots around trees, etc. It's fun, and you never know if you can pull it off unless you try.
I think this will make me a better golfer long term, than playing every round as if it is a medal.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Also, golf becomes very one dimensional, when all you do is keep score. I like to try diffrrent approaches to holes, play different shots, that may be are not the % choice. Take on silly shots around trees, etc. It's fun, and you never know if you can pull it off unless you try.
I think this will make me a better golfer long term, than playing every round as if it is a medal.
		
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I agree although having now played the game for 50 years I think I have rather given up on the idea of it improving my golf long term 😉


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But you aren't "really playing golf" if you are playing more than one ball but only keeping score with your "main ball".

Surely there is only any real point in keeping a score if you are strictly adhering to the Rules of Golf i.e. no gimmes,  mulligans or practising on the course, thereby replicating competition conditions.
		
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I just can't _not _keep score. If I didn't I'd be perennially wondering what my score would have been, and that's what would spoil it. It's a measure of how well I play. If I felt I played well but hadn't kept score, I'd be annoyed that I could have broken 80 or something but wouldn't know for sure. I just have to know these things.


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## USER1999 (Nov 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree although having now played the game for 50 years I think I have rather given up on the idea of it improving my golf long term 😉
		
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Yeah, I have played for 30 odd, but still like trying new stuff.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Controversial statement but I agree. 54 handicap means the player has the_ potential _to shoot 126, but is probably going to score higher most of the time.

There is no shame in being a complete beginner and hacking it around in 130+, but you're probably better off on a shorter course or pitch and putt and work up to a full course. Children don't play football on a full size pitch, novice skiers don't start off on black runs.
		
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I think most are missing the fact that it is no longer a 54 handicap limit, it is a 54 Index Limit. At a bog standard course with slope 130, this gives a course handicap of 62. At a course with a high slope of 150, a course handicap of 72. So, at that hard course, I guess you are looking at a potential round of 144 (but probably higher with the odd bad hole worse than nett double bogey, and a lot worse on bad days)

However, I still have no objection to the handicap limit. In my experience, even the golfers with the least quality at the club (who play in comps) have handicap index values of around mid 30's. They do lack a lot of quality, but none of them are particularly slow. The slowest golfers are usually some of the lower handicappers or more competitive players, who have very slow routines. It would be interesting to know how many golfers genuinely have a 54 index, and get peoples experience on them. I reckon they'd be so bad (based on the scores above), I doubt playing in competitions would be that pleasurable for them anyway. However, the fact the handicap goes up to 54 at least gives them an option to quietly play socially, submit scores, and gauge what level they are at. When there was an old limit of 28.0, it basically ignored the fact there are plenty of people that simply cannot get to that level, or at least not near that level yet. 54 provides such a high limit, that it gives poorer ability golfers a handicap that realistically reflects their ability and they can then have targets for improvement, and see their progress. I guess if 54 indexers DID enter competitions, and it was causing a serious problem with slow play, then that is when the club need to think about entry requirements.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I just can't _not _keep score. If I didn't I'd be perennially wondering what my score would have been, and that's what would spoil it. It's a measure of how well I play. If I felt I played well but hadn't kept score, I'd be annoyed that I could have broken 80 or something but wouldn't know for sure. I just have to know these things. 

Click to expand...

Fair enough but my point is that, to me, score is only relevant if it is achieved under full rules  not when occasionally playing more than one ball or practising. 

After all, if lowering handicap is the measure of ability that  can only be achieved by playing strictly to the rules.


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## Orikoru (Nov 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Fair enough but my point is that, to me, score is only relevant if it is achieved under full rules  not when occasionally playing more than one ball or practising.

After all, if lowering handicap is the measure of ability that  can only be achieved by playing strictly to the rules.
		
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Obviously a competition score is worth more in terms of achievement, but knowing my score on a friendly round still has merit. It's not like we are cheating ten shots off our scores every time. We're not overly generous with gimmes (we've all seen them missed), and we don't typically give mulligans, unless it's my 30 handicap mate who's just bobbled on behind him off the first tee or something.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Obviously a competition score is worth more in terms of achievement, but knowing my score on a friendly round still has merit. It's not like we are cheating ten shots off our scores every time. We're not overly generous with gimmes (we've all seen them missed), and we don't typically give mulligans, unless it's my 30 handicap mate who's just bobbled on behind him off the first tee or something.
		
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Im with you here mate - I record my score (on my watch mostly) for every round that I play. Always want to know what I scored, stableford and strokes.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Im with you here mate - I record my score (on my watch mostly) for every round that I play. Always want to know what I scored, stableford and strokes.
		
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So why not submit  a supplementary if your objective is to improve. 

I don’t need to keep a score to know if I am striking the ball well but, to me, playing well can only be measured under competition conditions.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So why not submit  a supplementary if your objective is to improve.

I don’t need to keep a score to know if I am striking the ball well but, to me, playing well can only be measured under competition conditions.
		
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I do submit supplementary scores. We follow comp rules when we play, anything other than that causes arguments


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I do submit supplementary scores. We follow comp rules when we play, anything other than that causes arguments 

Click to expand...

Comp rules yes but not comp conditions as there is not the same pressure of having to submit a score at the end of the round.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Comp rules yes but not comp conditions as there is not the same pressure of having to submit a score at the end of the round.
		
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Well it is if you pre-declare the round? Which you have to at my club.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Well it is if you pre-declare the round? Which you have to at my club.
		
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Fair enough if you are submitting a supplementary card each time you keep a score. 

If not a supplementary then, as I said, the score,  in my view at least  is irrelevant. 

But each to their own as I have previously admitted to being a miserable old sod who has no interest in other's scores or in hearing about their rounds.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Fair enough if you are submitting a supplementary card each time you keep a score.

If not a supplementary then, as I said, the score,  in my view at least  is irrelevant.

But each to their own as I have previously admitted to being a miserable old sod who has no interest in other's scores or in hearing about their rounds.
		
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As you say, each to their own!

Maybe to those who have played for years and years score/ strokes isnt important in casual golf, and I might be in agreement with you in a few years. But when youre in your first year of golf, and you ball striking is never consistent, the only thing you can measure a good round or bad round on is your overall strokes or stableford score. How else can I find areas to improve? I record drive locations, penalties, putts all in my watch - post round I can look at the data and see where I lost shots etc and break it down much better to see what area of my game needs addressing the most.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2020)

I remember a young teenage future Ryder Cup player trucking up for golf in a multicoloured matching shirt and shorts combo.
I was assailed by a couple of ' senior traditionalists' who complained loudly and publicly
Nothing wrong with that says I   'he looks a lot smarter than you two'.
The young Pro shop staff had to turn away spluttering.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Comp rules yes but not comp conditions as there is not the same pressure of having to submit a score at the end of the round.
		
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Disagree. If you're going out with an aim, to shoot a pb, break 90/80 whatever, the pressure on yourself is just the same as it is when playing a comp


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Disagree. If you're going out with an aim, to shoot a pb, break 90/80 whatever, the pressure on yourself is just the same as it is when playing a comp
		
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Depends.

If your objective is not known to others in advance and the score reported afterwards the pressure is not the same. 

After all the easiest person to fool is yourself.


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## Babyliss (Nov 27, 2020)

I wonder why this is happening. I thought that gender discrimination was a thing of the past, but apparently I was wrong. the world has changed a lot and I just don't understand some of the preferences of people. For example squirting on webcam This is unattractive to me. but everyone has their own preferences. Likewise, with preferences in golf - someone prefers to play only with guys, although statistics show that the best golfers are girls.


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## stefanovic (Oct 6, 2021)

Any progress to encourage women and girls to join a golf club or is it still Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden at your club?

I can't comment because I'm no longer a member, but in the light of recent news this is even more of an issue.
I play the pay and plays where I've seen very few women players in recent times.

Does Muirfield still only have 12 specially selected female members out of 625?

Is there any specific reason why women might only have their own window of tee times?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2021)

Complete equality of membership at my place, has been for some time. Some tee reservations for ladies only, similarly some for gents only…(because sometimes ‘ladies with ladies‘ and ‘gents with gents’ is preferred) - otherwise tee booking is open to all.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 6, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Is there any specific reason why women might only have their own window of tee times?
		
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yes they do, because the senior men block book everything and no one can get on the course. The simple solution is to allow the 7 day members to over write any booking and exercise their 7 day rights irrespective of their gender


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## Smiffy (Oct 6, 2021)

Pm me Hun 
X


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

My own club is very good on this front. Ladies are the only grouping with a saturday slot guaranteed, everyone else is fastest finger. Sunday morning has a 2 hour slot for the mens comp booked out but that is it, the rest is open to all. Effectively everyone is an equal 7 day member and are treated as such.

There is one nearby club which treats the ladies section quite appallingly but their location means that they get away with it and the women largely stay. Every so often a grouping will go but they are easily replaced with male members so in reality the club do not care if this happens.


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## Orikoru (Oct 6, 2021)

My club actually had a 'Women on Par' golf day to attract more female members. I took my wife down as she was interested and she got a free 20-minute beginner lesson from one of the pros, which was nice. I think they wanted her to sign up on some kind of light membership deal but she definitely wasn't ready for that. Also she'd have been the youngest female member by a clear 25 years I think.


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

Equality at my place, women have more medals than men too it seems.

There were getting into golf sessions recently to give people a chance to try the game.


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## drdel (Oct 6, 2021)

It's all to easy to turn the system into positive discrimination: which is also unfair. 

Equality is about same fees for same service and opportunities.


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## RichA (Oct 6, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's all to easy to turn the system into positive discrimination: which is also unfair.

*Equality is about same fees for same service and opportunities*.  

Click to expand...

So seniors and kids should be paying full price for membership?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			So seniors and kids should be paying full price for membership?
		
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Seniors certainly should, no reason why not. Juniors, no. They have no income, are reliant on mum and dad paying.


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## stefanovic (Oct 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is one nearby club which treats the ladies section quite appallingly
		
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If possible please name and shame the club so we can decide how just that might be.

Probably for the first time in human history misogyny may one day become a hate crime.
Whether we are male or female we all have one thing in common. 
No other species appears to discriminate. 

Btw, does anyone know how many female golfers are on this forum?


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## Orikoru (Oct 6, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's all to easy to turn the system into positive discrimination: which is also unfair.

Equality is about same fees for same service and opportunities.  

Click to expand...

I played at a nine hole course recently with my wife where the green fee was less for women than for men.


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## drdel (Oct 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			So seniors and kids should be paying full price for membership?
		
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Not necessarily.

My point was simply that the 'services' males and females recieve from the club should be the *same* for the *same* fees. e.g. gender neutral. If juniors are being encouraged then boys and girls pay the same; similarly Old gits pay the same as elderly ladies.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

drdel said:



			Not necessarily.

My point was simply that the 'services' males and females recieve from the club should be the *same* for the *same* fees. e.g. gender neutral. If juniors are being encouraged then boys and girls pay the same; similarly Old gits pay the same as elderly ladies.
		
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Ladies have NO joining fee at mine.
Nor do men under 30 yrs old.
I am a senior and pay the same as everyone else.
Our ladies are all full members.

But this is positive discrimination is wrong imo.
A 29yr old multi millionaire only pays half of what it costs to join than a 31yr old on minimum wage.
I understand why they do it to attract younger men but just think it’s wrong.
Everyone should pay the same and get the same service.
Except juniors who have a sliding scale of fees and no JF.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I played at a nine hole course recently with my wife where the green fee was less for women than for men.
		
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I thought that’s not allowed ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			If possible please name and shame the club so we can decide how just that might be.
		
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I don't think that is the right thing to do when it is not my club, they are not here to reply. Ultimately it is up to that club to put their own house in order.


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## chrisd (Oct 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Ladies have NO joining fee at mine.
Nor do men under 30 yrs old.
I am a senior and pay the same as everyone else.
Our ladies are all full members.

But this is positive discrimination is wrong imo.
A 29yr old multi millionaire only pays half of what it costs to join than a 31yr old on minimum wage.
I understand why they do it to attract younger men but just think it’s wrong.
Everyone should pay the same and get the same service.
Except juniors who have a sliding scale of fees and no JF.
		
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I might be wrong but I understood that it's possible for clubs of different types to positively discriminate in favour of groups (men, women, children) if they are under represented within a (whatever type of) club, and if pricing is one of the reasons for that under representation then they can price accordingly to balance membership.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 6, 2021)

We have mixed comps at the weekend. But the old dears get their own tee slots in the week as “men play too fast”. Our ladies are particularly old and focus more on socialising than golf so huddle around one person playing rather than going to their ball. Hence what they may mean by “playing too fast” I think. 

Seniors also get their own comps as well as entry to Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday comps. Not sure why. Seems unfair.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			We have mixed comps at the weekend. But the old dears get their own tee slots in the week as “men play too fast”. Our ladies are particularly old and focus more on socialising than golf so huddle around one person playing rather than going to their ball. Hence what they may mean by “playing too fast” I think. 

Seniors also get their own comps as well as entry to Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday comps. Not sure why. Seems unfair.
		
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Really, this "unfair" business is getting tiresome.  How is it unfair for anyone to have someone over , say 60, entering the men's competition.?
What harm does it do anyone for there to be a seniors section that have a competition for themselves once a week?
The world 's going mad looking for things to get feeling "done by!"


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What harm does it do anyone for there to be a seniors section that have a competition for themselves once a week?
		
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At our place the seniors have a big chunk of Monday mornings booked out for their use only. Annoys the heck out of me on Bank Holidays as it means I can't take advantage of my extra day off. I've raised it as an issue but been told 'it's always been that way' as though that makes it okay 🙄


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## DanFST (Oct 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At our place the seniors have a big chunk of Monday mornings booked out for their use only. Annoys the heck out of me on Bank Holidays as it means I can't take advantage of my extra day off. I've raised it as an issue but been told 'it's always been that way' as though that makes it okay 🙄
		
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I would imagine with the average age of the forum, this will fall on deaf ears (literally!)


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			We have mixed comps at the weekend. But the old dears get their own tee slots in the week as “men play too fast”. Our ladies are particularly old and focus more on socialising than golf so huddle around one person playing rather than going to their ball. Hence what they may mean by “playing too fast” I think.

Seniors also get their own comps as well as entry to Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday comps. Not sure why. Seems unfair.
		
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Perhaps calling them the "old dears" doesn't help?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I might be wrong but I understood that it's possible for clubs of different types to positively discriminate in favour of groups (men, women, children) if they are under represented within a (whatever type of) club, and if pricing is one of the reasons for that under representation then they can price accordingly to balance membership.
		
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Yes I know they can ,but I just don’t think it’s right.
Imagine going to a pub ,your pint is £3.50
Under 30yr old is only £2.50.
If you want to play golf at any particular club you should pay what the rest of the members pay.
That’s equality.


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At our place the seniors have a big chunk of Monday mornings booked out for their use only. Annoys the heck out of me on Bank Holidays as it means I can't take advantage of my extra day off. I've raised it as an issue but been told 'it's always been that way' as though that makes it okay 🙄
		
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I get that. Why should a group who perhaps don't work get set a side a large chunk of tee times when they can play anytime?


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I believe that greens fees should be linked to the tees you play from. OK, there's a big correlation to gender that way but not necessarily. I've played several courses where I felt I was being ripped off paying the same amount for a vastly inferior experience.
		
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People should play off tees that suit their ability, that would sort that one.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Really, this "unfair" business is getting tiresome.  How is it unfair for anyone to have someone over , say 60, entering the men's competition.?
What harm does it do anyone for there to be a seniors section that have a competition for themselves once a week?
The world 's going mad looking for things to get feeling "done by!"
		
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I’m totally unaffected, I very rarely get time to play in the week bar Wednesday but I would deem it unfair to exclude different demographics and sexes entry to competitions if they pay the same in membership.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

KenL said:



			I get that. Why should a group who perhaps don't work get set a side a large chunk of tee times when they can play anytime?
		
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It’s not black and white as that.
If I take the grandkids to school, and pick them up.
Taking travel into account gives me 10am to 2 pm to get a game in.
Lots of seniors still work don’t forget it’s over 55yr olds.
But do agree they should just book on the tee sheet not block book large chunks.


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## chrisd (Oct 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I know they can ,but I just don’t think it’s right.
Imagine going to a pub ,your pint is £3.50
Under 30yr old is only £2.50.
If you want to play golf at any particular club you should pay what the rest of the members pay.
That’s equality.
		
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I didnt say I disagree with you

I get a £100 discount on our annual 7 day rate for continuous 20+ year membership, and that I'm old enough to claim the state pension. Our Chairman told me he wants to stop that concession to give younger players a bigger discount than they already get  - I regularly park next to these younger members Porches, Mercs, Beamers etc . I told him that he's a Richard Head 😁


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## Swango1980 (Oct 6, 2021)

KenL said:



			People should play off tees that suit their ability, that would sort that one.
		
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What does that even mean? A scratch golfer, or a 30 handicapper, can play off any set of tees rated for them. So, who determines a players ability and whether they can play off a set of tees? 

Would you ban a 28 handicapper from playing of the back tees at a short course, but he can then go to a long championship course and play off yellows, even though that yellow course is a lot longer than off whites at the 1st place? 

Many clubs don't allow play off back tees to protect them from heavy footfall. Also, having some groups playing off back tees could slow the general pace of play (good golfers can be slow as well). If clubs are willing to allow guests to play off back tees, perhaps they should keep green fees as they are for yellows, and a premium rate on whites. Let us see how many are willing to pay for the privilege.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 6, 2021)

It kicked off at our place re the bunkers. They are shocking. A member went into see the general manager who’s response was I will give you a free lesson. He was livid and said there are 200 members who would like a free lesson as well. So there was loads of guys on our WhatsApp group chucking there two pennuth worth in. 
A PP then pipes up “ I think we should also ask the GM if we can have 4 tee times every Tuesday and Thursday for our fiddle coz the women and seniors have there tee times”. I responded and said “ excellent idea crack on with it and let us know how you go on” he never said a flippin word. My point is it tiddled me off big style. He has not booked one single tee time in the three years I have played with him. When we have a fuddle he wants to go out first coz he always has something on. He is ok at giving other people bullets to fire and moaning coz women do this and seniors do that.But when it comes to the crux, he wants others to do his moaning. 
For me golf is for all, there’s give and take, the seniors have there time and the women have theres. 👍


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I didnt say I disagree with you

I get a £100 discount on our annual 7 day rate for continuous 20+ year membership, and that I'm old enough to claim the state pension. Our Chairman told me he wants to stop that concession to give younger players a bigger discount than they already get  - I regularly park next to these younger members Porches, Mercs, Beamers etc . I told him that he's a Richard Head 😁
		
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Yes a discount for loyalty sounds nice.
He does sound like a RH.
But giving it from day one to selected age groups won’t help the loyalty of these younger golfers to the club.
This is what went wrong at a lot of clubs and players were changing clubs regularly.
It’s hard to know who will stay and who will go come new year when fees are due!


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## DanFST (Oct 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			But giving it from day one to selected age groups won’t help the loyalty of these younger golfers to the club.
		
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I'm on a concession for being young. It absolutely has made me loyal, I'm a member for life. 

I wouldn't have got a membership at the full rate, wasn't sure the value was there. (In pandemic)


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm on a concession for being young. It absolutely has made me loyal, I'm a member for life.

I wouldn't have got a membership at the full rate, wasn't sure the value was there. (In pandemic)
		
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Good to hear.
But where I live we are the only club left with a JF.
I know from the secs of the other clubs golfers are moving around yearly.
They are having major problems competing with each other on price.
But less money impacts the quality of the course.


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## chrisd (Oct 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes a discount for loyalty sounds nice.
He does sound like a RH.
But giving it from day one to selected age groups won’t help the loyalty of these younger golfers to the club.
This is what went wrong at a lot of clubs and players were changing clubs regularly.
It’s hard to know who will stay and who will go come new year when fees are due!
		
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I reckon golf will backtrack to where it was in one to two years  time. 25 to 45's will go back to football. Cricket ,tennis etc etc now that those sports are opening up. I also see more social media offering golf gear for sale whereas 18 months ago everyone was looking for golf clubs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Now imagine that's a Saturday....
		
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I agree. If I was in charge of a golf club I wouldn't block off any competition for any section. Booking available for all.

Come down and play at my club 👍. The only block booking on a Saturday is the ladies from 8.30-10. Ladies can book outside those times, as can every other member, but that slot is theirs only. Crazy in this modern era that women who work are effectively barred from playing on one of the two key days available at a weekend.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			… I told him that he's a Richard Head 😁
		
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I used to do a bit of work with a Richard Head…no really…that‘s his name…🙄


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## chellie (Oct 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I agree. If I was in charge of a golf club I wouldn't block off any competition for any section. Booking available for all.

Come down and play at my club 👍. The only block booking on a Saturday is the ladies from 8.30-10. Ladies can book outside those times, as can every other member, but that slot is theirs only. Crazy in this modern era that women who work are effectively barred from playing on one of the two key days available at a weekend.
		
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When is your competition day? Our men's is on a Saturday and usually has a reserve list. Usually plus 170 play. Times available afterwards.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2021)

chellie said:



			When is your competition day? Our men's is on a Saturday and usually has a reserve list. Usually plus 170 play. Times available afterwards.
		
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The main mens comp is on a Sunday, booking closed off 7.30-10.20. Rest of the day is open to all. You can still play in the comp after 10.20 but you take your chance of a time with everyone else. There is also a chilled, yellow tee, comp on a Saturday but no times are closed off for that. You just book and play whenever.

We don't have a huge membership so that helps but equally I don't agree with closing off tee times from part of a membership. Everyone should have an equal chance to play each day.


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			What does that even mean? A scratch golfer, or a 30 handicapper, can play off any set of tees rated for them. So, who determines a players ability and whether they can play off a set of tees?

Would you ban a 28 handicapper from playing of the back tees at a short course, but he can then go to a long championship course and play off yellows, even though that yellow course is a lot longer than off whites at the 1st place?

Many clubs don't allow play off back tees to protect them from heavy footfall. Also, having some groups playing off back tees could slow the general pace of play (good golfers can be slow as well). If clubs are willing to allow guests to play off back tees, perhaps they should keep green fees as they are for yellows, and a premium rate on whites. Let us see how many are willing to pay for the privilege.
		
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Well, it's about people playing off tees appropriate for them so they can get round in a reasonable time, and more importantly, enjoy the game.

I have an index of 4.9 (was at 3.6 a few months ago). Played Gleneagles PGA, in August with other good golfers (2 lower than me). Off the whites, 6900 yards. Took almost 5 hours and was not that enjoyable. If I had played off the next tees, I would gave enjoyed it a lot more.

I scored 89 in perfect conditions.


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## KenL (Oct 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm on a concession for being young. It absolutely has made me loyal, I'm a member for life.

I wouldn't have got a membership at the full rate, wasn't sure the value was there. (In pandemic)
		
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I agree with younger people getting a break to keep them in the game. But, at my last club it was up to 30. Played with and experienced lawyer earning way more than me who was 29 and paying 2/3 fees.


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## Orikoru (Oct 6, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I believe that *greens fees should be linked to the tees you play from*. OK, there's a big correlation to gender that way but not necessarily. I've played several courses where I felt I was being ripped off paying the same amount for a vastly inferior experience.
		
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You might find a hell of a lot more men playing off the reds then in that case. 🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At our place the seniors have a big chunk of Monday mornings booked out for their use only. Annoys the heck out of me on Bank Holidays as it means I can't take advantage of my extra day off. I've raised it as an issue but been told 'it's always been that way' as though that makes it okay 🙄
		
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I think that your objection is valid because of the Bank holiday thing.
Why cannot the seniors have their competition on a weekday which is never a Bank holiday.?
If that suggestion fell on deaf ears, then they need to be called out on it and challenged at every opportunity until reasonableness and fairness prevail.


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## chrisd (Oct 7, 2021)

I don't have too much trouble with specific groups having access to the course at set times and days as some competitions etc are best run as a block booking. I do dislike it when, like last week at mine, there was a vets match against another club immediately followed by a swindle and then a society. We did get a round in but were told to get to the turn quicker than we normally would or we wouldn't be able to play through, this made us rush and pretty much spoiled the whole round.

By contrast, the same day this week we went out behind a vets comp (3 balls) as a 4 ball and the course was almost empty otherwise and we just sailed round in our own good time


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## AliMc (Oct 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At our place the seniors have a big chunk of Monday mornings booked out for their use only. Annoys the heck out of me on Bank Holidays as it means I can't take advantage of my extra day off. I've raised it as an issue but been told 'it's always been that way' as though that makes it okay 🙄
		
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We have similar on a Monday LT, think they are called the 65 club maybe, anyway I was recently playing with one of our recent club captains and he was telling us that during his captaincy he was approached by said club to grant them more tee times, on the refusing this request he was politely told 'the Seniors are the future of this club' to which I think he just fell about laughing 😉


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## DanFST (Oct 7, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Good to hear.
But where I live we are the only club left with a JF.
		
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I should preface this, I'm at the best members club in the area. So maybe a very different.




KenL said:



			I agree with younger people getting a break to keep them in the game. But, at my last club it was up to 30. Played with and experienced lawyer earning way more than me who was 29 and paying 2/3 fees.
		
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I would hazard a guess, the young man pays much more per round than a senior! Edge case however.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 7, 2021)

KenL said:



			I agree with younger people getting a break to keep them in the game. But, at my last club it was up to 30. Played with and experienced lawyer earning way more than me who was 29 and paying 2/3 fees.
		
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Why pick individual cases? Unless you propose that membership fees are solely based on what an individual earns (and forgetting what their other outgoings are). I'd imagine most people up to the age of 30 are still finding their way in the world, climbing their way up the career ladder (and maybe having kids as well). The average salary (2020), from 22-29 for a male, was £27,220 and for a male between 30-39 was £34,567. I think clubs are looking at this general data when setting membership prices, rather than looking at how much Mark Zuckerberg earnt before he was 30.


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2021)

It's getting interesting at ours at the moment. If anything women get a better deal than men. Ladies have tee times every Tuesday and Thursday morning and an hour and a half block bookings from 4.30 in the afternoon for women that work on those days too. They have also made all the Wednesday cup, Saturday medals and Sunday stablefords mixed events. There are only a handful of sat silver trophy comps but the are usually am only so women can still play on those Saturdays. There is not a single day a woman cannot play, but there are now 4 Saturdays where men can't play as there are ladies events on two opens a ladies captains day and  pro am. They still think  they are hard done by. The men have half a dozen matches against local clubs and a couple of others further a field, the ladies section thought it was unfair they couldn't play in these, despite they had 20 or more matches themselves some  at open venues, but they just wanted to keep those for ladies only.
 At the moment there are mutterings of getting rid of the ladies and senior sections and captains so it's all one club.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 7, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			It's getting interesting at ours at the moment. If anything women get a better deal than men. Ladies have tee times every Tuesday and Thursday morning and an hour and a half block bookings from 4.30 in the afternoon for women that work on those days too. They have also made all the Wednesday cup, Saturday medals and Sunday stablefords mixed events. There are only a handful of sat silver trophy comps but the are usually am only so women can still play on those Saturdays. There is not a single day a woman cannot play, but there are now 4 Saturdays where men can't play as there are ladies events on two opens a ladies captains day and  pro am. They still think  they are hard done by. The men have half a dozen matches against local clubs and a couple of others further a field, *the ladies section thought it was unfair they couldn't play in these, despite they had 20 or more matches themselves* some  at open venues, but they just wanted to keep those for ladies only.
At the moment there are mutterings of getting rid of the ladies and senior sections and captains so it's all one club.
		
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Well, if they insist they should be allowed to play in these matches, then the compromise seems to be that men can play in the "ladies" matches I guess? At the club I was recently a member of, ladies, seniors and juniors could play all the main weekend club competitions. The main group of people banned from anything were men, as they were not allowed to play in the Senior competitions if under the age of 55, and were not allowed to play in the ladies competitions. Sounds a bit like your club. Don't get me wrong, not complaining about the deal I get, just an observation. Not sure about my new club, I don't think women can play in the weekend comps, or at least they choose not to. Haven't seen any yet.


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## Ethan (Oct 7, 2021)

At the halfway hut at our place, there are men's and women's toilets. The men's toilet has a sign asking for gentleman to close the door while using the facility. No such sign in the ladies. Discrimination, if you ask me.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Oct 8, 2021)

sammyboy said:



			As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.
		
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Yours must be a member equity club.
I could never belong to one of those.
The self-importance of the committee members would make me homicidal.

I belong to a corporate owned club.
No huge initiation fee.
No assessments.
No membership committee to clear; the only thing that had to clear was my check.

Our club began life as a classic member equity club 115 years ago, shortly after you chaps taught us the game.  
It went under circa 1970, and it was purchased from the creditors by a "legitimate business interest."
The 1906 Donald Ross layout was then beautifully restored.

The club is almost certainly a laundromat for revenues accrued elsewhere, but I could never afford a member equity club of comparable quality,
nor with my colorful background and ethnic name, 
could I ever get past a stuffy membership committee.

We've got broads around.  Don't see much of a problem.  We can leave our shirts untucked if they're square-bottomed without tails--i.e., designed to be untucked.
No trouser restrictions except for no denim.  Maybe if one played in a jock strap, somebody might object.

As part of the weekday playing geriatric crowd, slow playing ladies don't bother me. 
I'm in no hurry, and some of them have decent asses.


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## KenL (Oct 8, 2021)

👆words fail me..🙄


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## Neilds (Oct 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Yours must be a member equity club.
I could never belong to one of those.
The self-importance of the committee members would make me homicidal.

I belong to a corporate owned club.
No huge initiation fee.
No assessments.
No membership committee to clear; the only thing that had to clear was my check.

Our club began life as a classic member equity club 115 years ago, shortly after you chaps taught us the game. 
It went under circa 1970, and it was purchased from the creditors by a "legitimate business interest."
The 1906 Donald Ross layout was then beautifully restored.

The club is almost certainly a laundromat for revenues accrued elsewhere, but I could never afford a member equity club of comparable quality,
nor with my colorful background and ethnic name,
could I ever get past a stuffy membership committee.

We've got broads around.  Don't see much of a problem.  We can leave our shirts untucked if they're square-bottomed without tails--i.e., designed to be untucked.
No trouser restrictions except for no denim.  Maybe if one played in a jock strap, somebody might object.

As part of the weekday playing geriatric crowd, slow playing ladies don't bother me.
I'm in no hurry, and some of them have decent asses.
		
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The 1800s have called, can you pop back when you are ready!


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## chellie (Oct 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Yours must be a member equity club.
I could never belong to one of those.
The self-importance of the committee members would make me homicidal.

I belong to a corporate owned club.
No huge initiation fee.
No assessments.
No membership committee to clear; the only thing that had to clear was my check.

Our club began life as a classic member equity club 115 years ago, shortly after you chaps taught us the game. 
It went under circa 1970, and it was purchased from the creditors by a "legitimate business interest."
The 1906 Donald Ross layout was then beautifully restored.

The club is almost certainly a laundromat for revenues accrued elsewhere, but I could never afford a member equity club of comparable quality,
nor with my colorful background and ethnic name,
could I ever get past a stuffy membership committee.

We've got broads around.  Don't see much of a problem.  We can leave our shirts untucked if they're square-bottomed without tails--i.e., designed to be untucked.
No trouser restrictions except for no denim.  Maybe if one played in a jock strap, somebody might object.

As part of the weekday playing geriatric crowd, slow playing ladies don't bother me.
I'm in no hurry, and some of them have decent asses.
		
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Wonder what the men's todgers are like?


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## Neilds (Oct 8, 2021)

chellie said:



			Wonder what the men's todgers are like?
		
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Probably small - nothing grows in the shade!


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## SurreyGolfer (Oct 8, 2021)

I genuinely don't understand how ladies having _some_ relatively minor benefits/differences compared to men (shirts tucked/untucked, more tee time/competition entry options, etc) rubs people up the wrong way? Ladies literally could not join clubs or play golf until relatively recently, some courses still do have restrictions in place. 

Making it as easy as possible for ladies to play and giving them a small range of times/competition to do so over and above what men get is naff all in the grand scheme of things.


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## Billysboots (Oct 8, 2021)

My club has mixed competitions, and no restrictions on when ladies, men, juniors or seniors can play. There are limited times set aside for roll-ups for various sections, but there is no impact on the members beyond that.

As it should be in 2021.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Oct 8, 2021)

Neilds said:



			The 1800s have called, can you pop back when you are ready!
		
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I'm honestly baffled as to how this retort applies to my post!  
I described a progressive situation where the club is run by paid professional managers instead of self-important member committees.
That sounds pretty third millennium to me.


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## KenL (Oct 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm honestly baffled as to how this retort applies to my post! 
I described a progressive situation where the club is run by paid professional managers instead of self-important member committees.
That sounds pretty third millennium to me.
		
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This is a wind up right?  Your last sentence was an absolute disgrace.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Oct 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Yours must be a member equity club.
I could never belong to one of those.
The self-importance of the committee members would make me homicidal.

I belong to a corporate owned club.
No huge initiation fee.
No assessments.
No membership committee to clear; the only thing that had to clear was my check.

Our club began life as a classic member equity club 115 years ago, shortly after you chaps taught us the game. 
It went under circa 1970, and it was purchased from the creditors by a "legitimate business interest."
The 1906 Donald Ross layout was then beautifully restored.

The club is almost certainly a laundromat for revenues accrued elsewhere, but I could never afford a member equity club of comparable quality,
nor with my colorful background and ethnic name,
could I ever get past a stuffy membership committee.

We've got broads around.  Don't see much of a problem.  We can leave our shirts untucked if they're square-bottomed without tails--i.e., designed to be untucked.
No trouser restrictions except for no denim.  Maybe if one played in a jock strap, somebody might object.

As part of the weekday playing geriatric crowd, slow playing ladies don't bother me.
I'm in no hurry, and some of them have decent asses.
		
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## KenL (Oct 8, 2021)

JonnyGutteridge said:





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Don't encourage him...🤣


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## Neilds (Oct 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm honestly baffled as to how this retort applies to my post! 
I described a progressive situation where the club is run by paid professional managers instead of self-important member committees.
That sounds pretty third millennium to me.
		
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You refer to lady members as ‘broads’ and wonder why people comment? Amazing!!!!


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## AmandaJR (Oct 9, 2021)

SurreyGolfer said:



			I genuinely don't understand how ladies having _some_ relatively minor benefits/differences compared to men (shirts tucked/untucked, more tee time/competition entry options, etc) rubs people up the wrong way? Ladies literally could not join clubs or play golf until relatively recently, some courses still do have restrictions in place.

Making it as easy as possible for ladies to play and giving them a small range of times/competition to do so over and above what men get is naff all in the grand scheme of things.
		
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Lovely to hear and so wish your opinion was more prevalent than it sadly is.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 9, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I believe that greens fees should be linked to the tees you play from. OK, there's a big correlation to gender that way but not necessarily. I've played several courses where I felt I was being ripped off paying the same amount for a vastly inferior experience.
		
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I think you should pay your green fee and choose your tee. I do, they may say oh that’s a competition tee only, but if I want to play from it, I will. Always have done this and I have been playing for 30years. No one has approached me to say no you cannot do that. 
Just roll up and play, if you have a booking you have booked all the tees. 

I don’t have any issues with lady golfers on any level. I don’t like any golfer who holds me up with slow play. 

I do think there are and still are sections of the club that are derogatory to lady golfers, and those are also reflected back by the ladies.

 I present myself as affable and happy to play with or without company.. I am no great socialite though, but I don’t interfere with their game unless someone is perpetually whinging on then I help. 
I actually find the seniors harder work, some are hilarious and others are pompous old has beens who are used to people hanging on their every word. 
Just play the game with anyone you all have a common interest surely you can take pleasure in playing with one another irrespective of gender


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## IanM (Oct 9, 2021)

I guess generalisations are always, um, generalisations


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## Billysboots (Oct 9, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I think you should pay your green fee and choose your tee. I do, they may say oh that’s a competition tee only, but if I want to play from it, I will. Always have done this and I have been playing for 30years. No one has approached me to say no you cannot do that.
Just roll up and play, if you have a booking you have booked all the tees.
		
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Hmmm. I’m not too sure how the greenkeeping staff at clubs you visit would feel about that.

Are you saying you just do as you please or, if certain tees are out of play because of general maintenance, do you play off another tee in order to respect the greenkeepers and members of the club? Surely the tee of the day should be observed, unless a club official has agreed to your request to do otherwise.

My apologies if I have misunderstood, but your words come across as suggesting that, having paid a green fee, you have carte blanche to treat the course how you see fit.


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## ExRabbit (Oct 10, 2021)

Competition tees are named that for a reason. 

Using them outside of competition gives you an unfair advantage over the rest of the members who respect that.


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## Slab (Oct 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Hmmm. I’m not too sure how the greenkeeping staff at clubs you visit would feel about that.

Are you saying you just do as you please or, if certain tees are out of play because of general maintenance, do you play off another tee in order to respect the greenkeepers and members of the club? Surely the tee of the day should be observed, unless a club official has agreed to your request to do otherwise.

My apologies if I have misunderstood, but your words come across as suggesting that, having paid a green fee, you have carte blanche to treat the course how you see fit.
		
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as an aside, don't clubs simply remove the tee markers if they're not in play /not to be used that day? 
Or at the very least move them next to an adjacent tee marker or another prepared teeing area (if they have extras ones)

The local club routinely does the latter two options not only for maintenance /recovery but also for strong winds /playability


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## evemccc (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I believe that greens fees should be linked to the tees you play from. OK, there's a big correlation to gender that way but not necessarily. I've played several courses where I felt I was being ripped off paying the same amount for a vastly inferior experience.
		
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Green fees should be linked to what you score. With those shooting higher scores having to pay the most, and the +3 golfers being subsidised….after all, they’re not hitting the ball as much and so are getting a lesser experience and ‘less for their money’


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 10, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Green fees should be linked to what you score. With those shooting higher scores having to pay the most, and the +3 golfers being subsidised….after all, they’re not hitting the ball as much and so are getting a lesser experience and ‘less for their money’
		
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Have you seen the divots that low handicappers take, creating all that lovely spin 😳. Extra work for the greenkeepers so extra fees 😉


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## KenL (Oct 10, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Green fees should be linked to what you score. With those shooting higher scores having to pay the most, and the +3 golfers being subsidised….after all, they’re not hitting the ball as much and so are getting a lesser experience and ‘less for their money’
		
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Funny!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Hmmm. I’m not too sure how the greenkeeping staff at clubs you visit would feel about that.

Are you saying you just do as you please or, if certain tees are out of play because of general maintenance, do you play off another tee in order to respect the greenkeepers and members of the club? Surely the tee of the day should be observed, unless a club official has agreed to your request to do otherwise.

My apologies if I have misunderstood, but your words come across as suggesting that, having paid a green fee, you have carte blanche to treat the course how you see fit.
		
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Don’t bother going to clubs with tee maintenance going on , guaranteed disappointment. Ask in the pro shop if they have closed and not adjusted and offering a reduced experience then it’s a case of walking away or asking for a discounted green fee. I have usually been offered a reduced fee but I have not always taken them up.
If the course is fully open then why not? 
I don’t want to play a shortened course or temporary greens especially if I have paid for it. 
When I started golf I had to go through a process of learning the etiquette and playing with established members to learn how to behave and treat the course. So yeah I respect the course and you won’t know I have been there.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			Competition tees are named that for a reason.

Using them outside of competition gives you an unfair advantage over the rest of the members who respect that.
		
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Ah so revising for exams is cheating?? 
You could limit people to 1 round a week as well because they will get an unfair advantage by playing frequently..


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## Billysboots (Oct 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Seniors certainly should, no reason why not. Juniors, no. They have no income, are reliant on mum and dad paying.
		
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I can’t disagree regarding seniors, I’m afraid. At our place, which I am sure reflects many clubs, the seniors play considerably more golf than many full 7-day members, the latter having to pay for that category of membership so they can play when they are free at weekends.

I get the argument regarding reduced income etc, but so many of our seniors play 3, 4 or 5 times a week, and do so at a fraction of the cost of those who can maybe get out twice if they’re lucky.

It does seem a little unjust.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I can’t disagree regarding seniors, I’m afraid. At our place, which I am sure reflects many clubs, the seniors play considerably more golf than many full 7-day members, the latter having to pay for that category of membership so they can play when they are free at weekends.

I get the argument regarding reduced income etc, but so many of our seniors play 3, 4 or 5 times a week, and do so at a fraction of the cost of those who can maybe get out twice if they’re lucky.

It does seem a little unjust.
		
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It’s true, and it does seem crazy, but most seniors opt for 5 day memberships as well. I think a 7 day membership should be same across all playing groups for parity.. but also in the end it would reduce the cost of a 7 day membership because they are not subsidising other groups .. now that is equality.
You could offer junior memberships that are related to the school terms and they pay a reduced rate to have access in those times, and even put in a roll up time for them mid week .. weekends should be only available to 7 day memberships.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t bother going to clubs with tee maintenance going on , guaranteed disappointment. Ask in the pro shop if they have closed and not adjusted and offering a reduced experience then it’s a case of walking away or asking for a discounted green fee. I have usually been offered a reduced fee but I have not always taken them up.
If the course is fully open then why not?
I don’t want to play a shortened course or temporary greens especially if I have paid for it.
When I started golf I had to go through a process of learning the etiquette and playing with established members to learn how to behave and treat the course. So *yeah I respect the course and you won’t know I have been there.*

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If you’re playing off tees that are reserved only for members or competitions and you have decided to ignore that and play off them anyway “to get the full experience” - then is that respecting the course/club ?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 10, 2021)

Thread is about sex discrimination in golf, lets keep on track please


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you’re playing off tees that are reserved only for members or competitions and you have decided to ignore that and play off them anyway “to get the full experience” - then is that respecting the course/club ?
		
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Look it the other way, are you respecting the green fee payer by giving them a degraded experience? 
But back on topic I don’t see why ladies if they so choose cannot go off the yellow tees if they are the tee of the day? A red tee and yellow tee should be available at all courses.
I won’t play if there is no white tee available. Which probably is the point Kaz will get to


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Look it the other way, are you respecting the green fee payer by giving them a degraded experience?
But back on topic I don’t see why ladies if they so choose cannot go off the yellow tees if they are the tee of the day? A red tee and yellow tee should be available at all courses.
I won’t play if there is no white tee available. Which probably is the point Kaz will get to
		
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Or people adhere to the rules set out by the club regardless of sex - if the club dictate that ladies go of the reds then that’s the tee they play , if the club allow any tee to be used for the ladies then pick a tee they want but the overriding respectful thing to do is adhere to the club rules. Ignoring club rules is disrespectful


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## DaveR (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			No, in this example sex discrimination is the problem.
		
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Not necessarily. My course has several carries well in excess of 150 yards from the yellow/white tees. Good luck to the majority of women if they want to go further back from the red tees.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			You kind of missed my point. I'll usually do exactly as you suggest, other than one course that was adamant about it, but that's not a realistic option for all. Some courses are well-designed and give a comparable experience to players from the front tees. Most, unfortunately, don't and some are almost laughably bad. IMO, and that's all it is, those latter courses are ripping off players charging the same fees to play a poor version of their course.
		
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That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..


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## DaveR (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..
		
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Seems to me that you're the one showing a lack of respect.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			No, in this example sex discrimination is the problem.
		
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I’m not sure what you are saying no to but it’s not discriminatory if every visitor or member is treated the same.

If a visitor is detailed to go off the tee of the day for their respective sex then both sexes are being treated equally and the same if it’s members .

At the end of the day people should always respect the rules of the club when they are visiting that club - if they are unable to do so then don’t go to the club. 


harpo_72 said:



			That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..
		
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And as I said - you by ignoring club rules and what they request are showing a lack of respect - maybe look inward first. It’s not always about what you want - rules always apply.


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## Billysboots (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off.
		
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Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I do question why you would want to play somewhere if you feel they are out to rip you off.

That said, I have played at places where some of the tees absolutely warrant a discounted fee. I played both courses at Stoke By Nayland in the summer, and many of the ladies tees were merely blocks on uncut fairways, several offering sloping lies and nothing else. I may be speaking out of turn, and the ladies may have received a reduced fee, but I doubt it.

But would it be right for the ladies to play from the men’s tees? Probably not fair on them anyway, given so many require a long carry over water. The choice really was whether to put up with what was on offer, or simply go elsewhere. 

I absolutely agree that nobody should put up with being ripped off. I’m just not sure that being denied the opportunity to play off the very back tees, generally reserved for board competitions or scratch team matches at many clubs, necessarily equates to being ripped off.

What I can tell you is that any visitor found playing off the blue tees at ours (the very tips) will be asked not to. If they continue the club won’t take future bookings from them. That isn’t the club failing to respect a visitor in my view, but one maintaining its course in its best condition for events which merit it.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I do question why you would want to play somewhere if you feel they are out to rip you off.

That said, I have played at places where some of the tees absolutely warrant a discounted fee. I played both courses at Stoke By Nayland in the summer, and many of the ladies tees were merely blocks on uncut fairways, several offering sloping lies and nothing else. I may be speaking out of turn, and the ladies may have received a reduced fee, but I doubt it.

But would it be right for the ladies to play from the men’s tees? Probably not fair on them anyway, given so many require a long carry over water. The choice really was whether to put up with what was on offer, or simply go elsewhere.

I absolutely agree that nobody should put up with being ripped off. I’m just not sure that being denied the opportunity to play off the very back tees, generally reserved for board competitions or scratch team matches at many clubs, necessarily equates to being ripped off.

What I can tell you is that any visitor found playing off the blue tees at ours (the very tips) will be asked not to. If they continue the club won’t take future bookings from them. That isn’t the club failing to respect a visitor in my view, but one maintaining its course in its best condition for events which merit it.
		
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I think it’s a case of going back to pro shop and asking for a refund most of the time.. but if they refuse then it’s a bit of a prolonged process ..


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## BiMGuy (Oct 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or people adhere to the rules set out by the club regardless of sex - if the club dictate that ladies go of the reds then that’s the tee they play , if the club allow any tee to be used for the ladies then pick a tee they want but the overriding respectful thing to do is adhere to the club rules. Ignoring club rules is disrespectful
		
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Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?


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## Billysboots (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I think it’s a case of going back to pro shop and asking for a refund most of the time.. but if they refuse then it’s a bit of a prolonged process ..
		
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Depends on whether or not they’re willing to see lots of negative online reviews. 😉


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not sure what you are saying no to but it’s not discriminatory if every visitor or member is treated the same.

If a visitor is detailed to go off the tee of the day for their respective sex then both sexes are being treated equally and the same if it’s members .

At the end of the day people should always respect the rules of the club when they are visiting that club - if they are unable to do so then don’t go to the club.


And as I said - you by ignoring club rules and what they request are showing a lack of respect - maybe look inward first. It’s not always about what you want - rules always apply.
		
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This discussion could go on forever and a day.. do your thing and I will do mine and if you get upset by it then that’s your emotional energy you have wasted 👍


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Depends on whether or not they’re willing to see lots of negative online reviews. 😉
		
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Yup that is definitely a benefit of social media


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?
		
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Courses are designed from tees based on gender at many clubs - the ladies tees are there for the ladies at the measured course for their handicap over the years , the layout , the carries , the par. Most clubs are moving towards having each tee rated for both ladies and men but still clubs have a tee of the day for both their men , ladies , visitors and members - its up to them to decide which tee is to be used for that day -and that also includes the men playing off what is normally set aside for ladies. 

For me the clear message is respecting the clubs wishes - especially when visiting , always ask the question of which tee you can use - if they say yellows or tee of the day only , ignore that and play of whatever you want then that imo is disrespectful to the club and course


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			This discussion could go on forever and a day.. do your thing and I will do mine and if you get upset by it then that’s your emotional energy you have wasted 👍
		
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No one is getting upset - was just pointing out your hypocrisy when you state you respect the course yet ignore the club rules to do whatever you want


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## Billysboots (Oct 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?
		
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This is where every golf club will have a problem, and we are in danger of over simplifying things. Clubs have to take a stance which suits the majority, for the good of the club, members and visitors alike, whilst understanding there will always be exceptions.

In general, the ladies at ours want to play from their own tees. They are realistic enough to accept that much of the course simply isn’t playable for them off the yellow (daily tees), never mind further back. We have two holes where the carry over water is close to 200 yards off the whites, 150 from the yellows. If we were to allow the majority of our ladies, especially the senior ladies, to play off the whites, you would be seeing rounds of five hours plus - that’s simply not good for anyone. Equally, there are probably half a dozen ladies who like the occasional knock on a longer course, and they are made more than welcome. 

Now this is where it gets interesting. What about male golfers who simply aren’t good enough to play the game and slap it round in five hours plus from tees clearly too difficult for them, simply because, as men, they are allowed? Do you enforce them playing from the traditional ladies tees?

Perhaps the answer to this is to allocate tees based on ability rather than gender? A starter at every club, requiring a handicap certificate? The problems that will cause will be a logistical headache for many clubs.

It is like it is for a reason. It is fair, and suitable, to the vast majority. Clubs need to address the requests of those who feel general principles don’t apply to them when the need arises.


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## RichA (Oct 10, 2021)

Surely, unless it's a comp with specified tees, any person paying a green fee or membership should be free to play off any available tee of their choosing. Anything else, based on gender would be discriminatory. It shouldn't be complicated, we're talking about tee boxes, not toilets.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No one is getting upset - was just pointing out your hypocrisy when you state you respect the course yet ignore the club rules to do whatever you want
		
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That’s not hypocrisy, that’s a club rule (?) vs a course condition and maintenance.. you can obey all the club rules and disrespect the course.


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## DaveR (Oct 10, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s not hypocrisy, that’s a club rule (?) vs a course condition and maintenance.. you can obey all the club rules and disrespect the course.
		
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Why would you disrespect the course?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 10, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Why would you disrespect the course?
		
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Dunno , perhaps disrespect is not looking after the course and not repairing the damage you do .. I do , and that’s why you won’t know I have been there.


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## IanM (Oct 10, 2021)

Tying this together...
 We have a group of lady Welsh internationals at our club.  Seriously good golfers, colleges in America etc etc...only ever play off the back tees...unless formal comp off another set.   

Most of the ladies section however are happy to tee off as far forward as the tees allow!

We make no statement re gender and tees.  They are just coloured for differentiation. 


The Fitness Industry must be more sexist than golf.

There are more women only gyms in Chepstow,  than there are male only golf clubs in whole of Wales.


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## Backache (Oct 10, 2021)

IanM said:



			Tying this together...
We have a group of lady Welsh internationals at our club.  Seriously good golfers, colleges in America etc etc...only ever play off the back tees...unless formal comp off another set.  

Most of the ladies section however are happy to tee off as far forward as the tees allow!

We make no statement re gender and tees.  They are just coloured for differentiation.




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Pretty much the same at our club unless a competition is off designated tees, anyone can play from any tee.
Quite often in winter older male golfers play off the forward tees.


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## DaveR (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Sorry, but if the rule is "women can't play those tees but men can" it's textbook sex discrimination. If the rule is "only people who can carry it 150 yards+ can play those tees" that'd be different. Plenty of women hit it further than plenty of men.
		
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I never said it's a rule, I said it comes down to common sense (and ability).


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 10, 2021)

Ours is 6500yds off the whites.
To long for a lot of the older guys, most of the ladies would never even consider these tees. 
But some of the younger girls do play off them and they are very good golfers.
But the red tees are to easy for some of the better ladies, but they are more or less forced to play off them in the comps.
I thought with WHS they should have the choice as all tees are rated for all members.
But that would go both ways so men could play the shorter red tees.
I just think you should play off where your comfortable with your game.
So we put a blue set of tees at 5500yds anybody can play these but they are not rated for the comps yet.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Absolutely, and undoubtedly a lower proportion of women will want or be able to play the longer course but those that do and are capable should definitely be allowed to do so!
		
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Absolutely. Imagine if the Korda sisters turned up to play a course only to be told they had to play off the reds as they are the ladies tees. 

We have 4 tees red, blue, yellow and white. We can play from whichever we choose on any given day. Unless the comp specifies the tee. Interestingly they are rated for men, but only the blue and red are rated for women. 

Tonight I followed an old couple who must have been well into their 80s. Very slowly. The man used the yellow tees and struggled to make it to many of the fairways. I know its probably force of habit, but why not just go off one of the forward tees. 

As someone mentioned earlier. Tees should be used by ability, not by gender.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Absolutely, and undoubtedly a lower proportion of women will want or be able to play the longer course but those that do and are capable should definitely be allowed to do so!
		
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Definitely.
I thought this would be sorted out by the introduction of WHS.
All tees rated for all members , can’t see why anybody can’t choose the tees they want to play.

Just an aside seen four 12/13 yr olds today while having a coffee.
All pegged it up on the whites ,right in front of the conservatory’s spike bar.
Three hit good shots  but one hit the ball fantastic little high draw. Very impressed I was.
The best dressed fourball I had seen for a long time as well.
Great to see.


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## Kellfire (Oct 10, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Sometimes I think you just want to argue no matter how totally stupid your point is. Have another think about this.
		
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I bet it’s unusual for you to have a middle aged man explain to you how you’re wrong to feel you’re discriminated against, eh?


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## 4LEX (Oct 10, 2021)

Too many men play off white tees when they should be off yellows. Tees should be handicap graded for everyone and the term ladies tees abolished. Always thought it absurd how men have 3 sets of tees yet the ladies only one.


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## sunshine (Oct 10, 2021)

I've seen a LET player at my course a few times this year. She plays from the whites like me. But some people think that she should have to play off the reds because she is a woman? And she's being disrespectful by turning up as a visitor and playing off the whites instead of the reds? The course is over 1,000 yards shorter off the red tees, but yes she should know her place and stick to where she belongs. The kitchen


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

I guess the moral of the story that some of us are trying to say is; why should anyone respect the wishes of a club that doesn’t respect them.

Phil, this next question isn’t an attack it’s a genuine attempt to understand your thinking. As someone from an ex-military background, where one of the core values is that you must follow authority almost without question, is there a chance you’re displaying that attitude here because that value has stayed with you into civilian life?


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## ExRabbit (Oct 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah so revising for exams is cheating??
You could limit people to 1 round a week as well because they will get an unfair advantage by playing frequently..
		
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a) I never used the word 'cheating'

b) You are either a troll or just an an idiot, either way I'm going to ignore anything else you post.

Congrats - you are the first person I put on ignore.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I guess the moral of the story that some of us are trying to say is; why should anyone respect the wishes of a club that doesn’t respect them.

Phil, this next question isn’t an attack it’s a genuine attempt to understand your thinking. As someone from an ex-military background, where one of the core values is that you must follow authority almost without question, is there a chance you’re displaying that attitude here because that value has stayed with you into civilian life?
		
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Talking about the Military when you haven’t got a clue and you are wrong, makes you no better than him.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Talking about the Military when you haven’t got a clue and you are wrong, makes you no better than him.
		
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Bit strong response, it was a good genuine question to ask and trying to understand someone else’s viewpoint/ stand point. 
The art of negotiation is to understand the drivers of the debate. 
Or you can just just argue pointlessly never understanding the motivations for the others arguments.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit strong response, it was a good genuine question to ask and trying to understand someone else’s viewpoint/ stand point.
The art of negotiation is to understand the drivers of the debate.
Or you can just just argue pointlessly never understanding the motivations for the others arguments.
		
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Bit strong This debate is irrelevant to LP’s background and kellfire’s motivation is once again to put others down by trying to look clever.

It’s neither a core value or something the Military are trained to do.

I’m sure he could talk about issues in the NHS and people discriminating or bullying colleagues etc.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s neither a core value or something the Military are trained to do.
.
		
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May be  it should be referred to as discipline, I am not ex military I worked a lot with ex military people and I worked in a field of professional sports where discipline is required and the ex military guys were a dream to work with. 
When I ask people to do something I am not really interested in their opinion, I expect them to do it. We can discuss opinions post event and that’s what I will always say. It’s not a gender thing it’s about getting the job done and accepting the decision making process. 
This does cross over into your civilian life, I find it very hard to work with people who don’t have this experience and want to perpetually discuss stuff as opposed to get on with the task in hand. 
And yes some on here have said I have a high handed approach… but I am entitled to question others authority as much as they can question mine. So asking why the tee boxes are not available to women is a fair question, as is asking why you cannot play the competition tees is not an unfair question… it’s just some of us will judge the answer and make a decision based on the judgement- which is play the ones you want, walk away


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## DaveR (Oct 11, 2021)

Golf clubs may or may not have valid reasons to do with which tees you have to play from. They may wish to protect the back tees for competitions or to make a competition feel a bit more 'special' or they may be just too belligerent to change the rules. Either way you have to follow the club rules. If you are a member and don't like them then challenge them via the committee. If you are a visitor and don't like them just go somewhere else instead. But to think you have the right to set your own rules is just wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			May be  it should be referred to as discipline, I am not ex military I worked a lot with ex military people and I worked in a field of professional sports where discipline is required and the ex military guys were a dream to work with.
*When I ask people to do something I am not really interested in their opinion, I expect them to do it. We can discuss opinions post event and that’s what I will always say.* It’s not a gender thing it’s about getting the job done and accepting the decision making process.
This does cross over into your civilian life, I find it very hard to work with people who don’t have this experience and want to perpetually discuss stuff as opposed to get on with the task in hand.
And yes some on here have said I have a high handed approach… but I am entitled to question others authority as much as they can question mine. So asking why the tee boxes are not available to women is a fair question, as is asking why you cannot play the competition tees is not an unfair question… it’s just some of us will judge the answer and make a decision based on the judgement- which is play the ones you want, walk away
		
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I totally understand anybody deciding how to spend their money, but I don’t see the link between that and females being told were to play regardless of money.

All tees should be gender free and all Clubs should reserve the right to open or close any tee as they see fit.

We are not allowed to use our White Tees out of competition, is it annoying? Sort of, but I knew that when I joined and I accept it.

As for the bit in bold, there is a time and place for that way of working, but it’s not how the Military train, infact, to use a cliche, you could risk lives and discussing it afterwards could be too late.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I guess the moral of the story that some of us are trying to say is; why should anyone respect the wishes of a club that doesn’t respect them.

Phil, this next question isn’t an attack it’s a genuine attempt to understand your thinking. As someone from an ex-military background, where one of the core values is that you must follow authority almost without question, is there a chance you’re displaying that attitude here because that value has stayed with you into civilian life?
		
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1. I don’t think you understand the “core values” of the military and its most certainly not to “follow authority without question”

2. My respect for the rules comes from my upbringing from my parents - and that “attitude” will stay with me and also with my daughter. Abiding by the rules and laws of the land imo should always every single persons core value 

3. Golf is a sport of self policing - we are expected to follow the rules of the sport and the rules of the club - if a club has made it their club rule that people go off a certain tee then I fully expect people to follow the club rule - someone stating that they will go of whatever tee they want regardless of the rules imo is disrespectful to the club and it would make people question what other rules they are happy to ignore 

If someone isn’t happy with a clubs rules then don’t play there - or if a member try and change things like I have over the last number of years which includes members and guests being able to play off whatever tee they wish. If someone feels a club isn’t respecting them then the person has a choice - don’t play there


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I guess the moral of the story that some of us are trying to say is; why should anyone respect the wishes of a club that doesn’t respect them.

Phil, this next question isn’t an attack it’s a genuine attempt to understand your thinking. As someone from an ex-military background, where one of the core values is that you must follow authority almost without question, is there a chance you’re displaying that attitude here because that value has stayed with you into civilian life?
		
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The reason you should respect the wishes of the club you are playing is because everything on in and on the venue belongs to the club.
You come into my house as a guest, or into my hotel as a paying guest, you respect my rules. End of.
Any behaviour you do in contravention if those rules is bad mannered to say the least. 
Now, the question whether or not one of those rules is  wrong or not and should be changed , is a different matter. I agree that the EGU or whatever should require clubs to allow play from any tee according to ability or comfort, but until such actions are permitted by the club, then I go with the clubs rules.
if you can't see the difference there then it says a lot more about your anarchist tendencies than it does about your fairminded ability to respect rules that you don't agree with.
That's why there are things like votes, AGMs, committees , MPs etc which are 
vehicles for people to use to change the rules that irk or offend them.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2021)

Next someone will be complaining it is unfair they cannot play their ball once it has crossed an internal out of bounds. They paid for the privilege, their ball is still on the course, so screw what the rules said. I'm entitled to play that ball. Or, perhaps they say that is not an issue, as they hold the Rules of Golf in higher esteem than the Rules of the Club.

At the end of the day, if the club has rules, then at least have the respect to stick to them. By all means question them, but it is not for you to change them or ignore them. Otherwise you are simply a golfer who just be treated with little respect. Clubs can rate ALL their tees for both men and women. Some have, some haven't, some may do in the future. If they haven't, then for handicapping at least, it would not be appropriate for ladies to play off men only rated tees and vice versa. If they were not submitting a card for handicap, then I'm sure men or women could realistically play off any tees they wish. I've seen men play off reds, I've even seen ladies play off whites. Rare, but it has happened, and I certainly wouldn't charge down to them and tell them to play from elsewhere. However, if social play from the whites was prohibited by the club, then that should be respected. They will no doubt do this to not only protect the tees, but to limit the potential of groups playing slower rounds in amongst other golfers off more forward tees.


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## patricks148 (Oct 11, 2021)

My only experience of gender issues on tees at nairn has been with women. We are rated for both sexes on all tees and added an extra shorter set of tees when the course changes were implemented. Before we had red (ladies) yellow (men daily) white(medal) blue (championship). There were no set rules where you could play from and both sets up to white for both sexes, the blue tees were only ever out when there was a comp on they were to be used for.. when the course changes were first done the club did away with gender spec tees and there were no longer" ladies" tees. A few of us played a mini hickory match and used the red tees, were were pulled up on several occasions by women for using their tees. Since then we have silver (forward) green (former ladies) blue( old mens daily) white (medal) Black (championship). the seniors section this year moved to using the greens for their games and who complained but the ladies section for using their tees.. personally I have no issues with players using the tees they want within reason, for instance using the whites when it will have an effect on the players behind for pace of play or its way beyond their ability, but if you have paid a lot of money to play and you want to get the full experience, fair enough but just let people through.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 11, 2021)

From an administration point of view does it work for ladies to play off different tees in a comp? 

We ran a trial last year where ladies could use either Red or Yellow tees (big, big difference on several holes (the reds on the first are 50 yards forward of the yellows and 60 yards on the 18th) and whilst some of the lower handicap ladies (of which there are few) were happy enough to play from the yellows the vast majority of ladies still played from the reds. And so to my question, could a comp be set-up that in a field of 100 ladies 90 played from the reds and 10 played from the yellows?

As an aside when offered the option to play from whites no ladies thought that would be enjoyable and so opted out of that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			From an administration point of view does it work for ladies to play off different tees in a comp?

We ran a trial last year where ladies could use either Red or Yellow tees (big, big difference on several holes (the reds on the first are 50 yards forward of the yellows and 60 yards on the 18th) and whilst some of the lower handicap ladies (of which there are few) were happy enough to play from the yellows the vast majority of ladies still played from the reds. And so to my question, could a comp be set-up that in a field of 100 ladies 90 played from the reds and 10 played from the yellows?

As an aside when offered the option to play from whites no ladies thought that would be enjoyable and so opted out of that.
		
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Our midweek comp is open to all members,  Men off whites, Ladies off Red, this is only because Tees were initially rated in that way, we are currently going through the process of having all Tees rated for all, gender free.

We don’t get many ladies entering the midweek comp, but the system has no issue handling the seperate set up.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I totally understand anybody deciding how to spend their money, but I don’t see the link between that and females being told were to play regardless of money.

All tees should be gender free and all Clubs should reserve the right to open or close any tee as they see fit.

We are not allowed to use our White Tees out of competition, is it annoying? Sort of, but I knew that when I joined and I accept it.

As for the bit in bold, there is a time and place for that way of working, but it’s not how the Military train, infact, to use a cliche, you could risk lives and discussing it afterwards could be too late.
		
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Perhaps I need to qualify that, with I usually have all the information that is readily available… and I pretty much know what I don’t know plus experience dating back to before computers had mice


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## DaveR (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			From an administration point of view does it work for ladies to play off different tees in a comp?

We ran a trial last year where ladies could use either Red or Yellow tees (big, big difference on several holes (the reds on the first are 50 yards forward of the yellows and 60 yards on the 18th) and whilst some of the lower handicap ladies (of which there are few) were happy enough to play from the yellows the vast majority of ladies still played from the reds. And so to my question, could a comp be set-up that in a field of 100 ladies 90 played from the reds and 10 played from the yellows?

As an aside when offered the option to play from whites no ladies thought that would be enjoyable and so opted out of that.
		
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The senior section at my club have recently trialled competitions played from both yellow and red tees, each player chooses and marks their card accordingly. So I think the answer to your question is (or will become) yes.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			From an administration point of view does it work for ladies to play off different tees in a comp?

We ran a trial last year where ladies could use either Red or Yellow tees (big, big difference on several holes (the reds on the first are 50 yards forward of the yellows and 60 yards on the 18th) and whilst some of the lower handicap ladies (of which there are few) were happy enough to play from the yellows the vast majority of ladies still played from the reds. And so to my question, could a comp be set-up that in a field of 100 ladies 90 played from the reds and 10 played from the yellows?

As an aside when offered the option to play from whites no ladies thought that would be enjoyable and so opted out of that.
		
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Technically, yes, IF both sets of tees have been rated for ladies of course. If so, adjustments would be made to their handicaps to take into account the differences in Course Ratings and the Slopes.

Not surprised most ladies prefer playing off the reds though. At our last club, many of the Seniors comps were off yellows, as apparently many of the Seniors refused to play off whites.


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			kellfire’s motivation is once again to put others down by trying to look clever.
		
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Wrong. But if you feel tough now, fair enough. 

At least Phil responded like an adult. Thanks for that, Phil.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Wrong. But if you feel tough now, fair enough.

At least Phil responded like an adult. Thanks for that, Phil.
		
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Tough! Grow up, there’s nothing I wouldn’t say on here I wouldn’t say to your face.

You want to explain post #296 and show me his response!

No answer to post #301 either, just an edit to my response to harpo.

Never you, always the victim.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Wrong.
		
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He may be wrong but without doubt your posting style puts so many people's backs up and Paul is quite correct on that matter


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## GreiginFife (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Our midweek comp is open to all members,  Men off whites, Ladies off Red, this is only because Tees were initially rated in that way, we are currently going through the process of having all Tees rated for all, gender free.

We don’t get many ladies entering the midweek comp, but the system has no issue handling the seperate set up.
		
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That’s not really the question I was asking. We too have mixed comps. All ladies play from one place and all men from one place. 
My question was around ladies playing from _different _tees within the same comp not two different sections playing from different tees.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			That’s not really the question I was asking. We too have mixed comps. All ladies play from one place and all men from one place.
My question was around ladies playing from _different _tees within the same comp not two different sections playing from different tees.
		
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Apologies if I confused you, that’s part of the reason we are having the Tees re-rated to allow the ladies the option.👍🏻


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 11, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I've seen a LET player at my course a few times this year. She plays from the whites like me. But some people think that she should have to play off the reds because she is a woman? And she's being disrespectful by turning up as a visitor and playing off the whites instead of the reds? The course is over 1,000 yards shorter off the red tees, but yes she should know her place and stick to where she belongs. The kitchen 

Click to expand...

Just after the first lock down,  we had a very famous LET and LPGA tour player visit our course,  she shot 68 off the whites.  I've only heard pride from our member's that she chose to visit our members club and no critisim of her playing off the "men's  tee's.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 11, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Technically, yes, IF both sets of tees have been rated for ladies of course. If so, adjustments would be made to their handicaps to take into account the differences in Course Ratings and the Slopes.

Not surprised most ladies prefer playing off the reds though. At our last club, many of the Seniors comps were off yellows, as apparently many of the Seniors refused to play off whites.
		
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In this scenario, how would the system know that one lady played off reds and another off yellows within the same comp?


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Tough! Grow up, there’s nothing I wouldn’t say on here I wouldn’t say to your face.

You want to explain post #296 and show me his response!

No answer to post #301 either, just an edit to my response to harpo.

Never you, always the victim.
		
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Why do you need your replies to be validated? People that have liked those posts clearly see some merit to my points. Maybe ask them because I’m not in the habit of explaining my every thought to someone who is just trying to be argumentative in the typical “play the man, not the ball” way.


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			He may be wrong but without doubt your posting style puts so many people's backs up and Paul is quite correct on that matter
		
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Well in this case I asked Phil a question and while the tone of his response was a tad petulant at least he responded. Which is more than you or Paul above had contributed to my points. So hey ho.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			In this scenario, how would the system know that one lady played off reds and another off yellows within the same comp?
		
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When the player registers for the round, they will be registered to a particular set of tees. Personally, I've not played in any comps where ladies (or men) can play of different sets of tees, so not sure how the admin works within the various ISVs in terms of how the club set it up, and what the player sees when registering if they have the option to pick the tees. If you genuinely need to know from a club admin side, there is a thread on the Expert Forum in which you should get a pretty quick answer.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			In this scenario, how would the system know that one lady played off reds and another off yellows within the same comp?
		
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Where different tee's are available for use, the "system" will ask the player to identify which tee they will be playing from when signing in,  I believe.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Well in this case I asked Phil a question and while the tone of his response was a tad petulant at least he responded. Which is more than you or Paul above had contributed to my points. So hey ho.
		
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Like many on here I see your posts and try to ignore them, just occasionally I feel the need to say what I feel when I read something you've written. I do the same when Phil gets on his high horse but let's be fair, you dont give a stuff what anybody thinks of your views and debating with you is pointless.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 11, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Where different tee's are available for use, the "system" will ask the player to identify which tee they will be playing from when signing in,  I believe.
		
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Didn't know that as I have never been asked when I sign in.


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Like many on here I see your posts and try to ignore them, just occasionally I feel the need to say what I feel when I read something you've written. I do the same when Phil gets on his high horse but let's be fair, you dont give a stuff what anybody thinks of your views and debating with you is pointless.
		
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I asked the question to understand why Phil doesn’t think it’s ok to challenge established norms at golf clubs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Why do you need your replies to be validated? People that have liked those posts clearly see some merit to my points. Maybe ask them because I’m not in the habit of explaining my every thought to someone who is just trying to be argumentative in the typical “play the man, not the ball” way.
		
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I don’t need my points validated, but if I was directly responded to and had my post questioned I’d at least explain my point or apologise if I was wrong.

As for taking posters liking your post as somehow seeing some merit in said post and not them “playing the man” (who your post is about) is forum gold.


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t need my points validated, but if I was directly responded to and had my post questioned I’d at least explain my point or apologise if I was wrong.

As for taking posters liking your post as somehow seeing some merit in said post and not them “playing the man” (who your post is about) is forum gold.

Click to expand...

Good emojis. Cheers.


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## stefanovic (Oct 11, 2021)

A private club near me has a poster at the entrance with the message 'Get into golf' with pictures of men, women and kids.
Let's make golf totally inclusive and throw away the exclusivity still enjoyed by many courses which belongs to a different age.
Introduce trial memberships for all if they haven't already done so.
But I hear some of you say, we need membership limits, we need high standards, little people don't know how to behave, they might hack our precious course to pieces and become disruptive.
To that I say, just throw them out if they do.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I asked the question to understand why Phil doesn’t think it’s ok to challenge established norms at golf clubs.
		
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That has nothing to do with why I posted. 

I commented on Paul's quite correct view that your posting style is designed to, and I quote, "kellfire’s motivation is once again to put others down by trying to look clever" and was nothing to do with the substance of the argument with Phil.

You just come across as a poor mans Ethan


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## BiMGuy (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire asked a perfectly reasonable question in a perfectly reasonable manner. 

The outrage is laughable considering many people think that blatant discrimination is okay, as long as you discriminate against a whole group of people. And that its fine if it says so in the club rules. 

I wonder which forum members have been or are committee members who make these rules?


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			That has nothing to do with why I posted.

I commented on Paul's quite correct view that your posting style is designed to, and I quote, "kellfire’s motivation is once again to put others down by trying to look clever" and was nothing to do with the substance of the argument with Phil.

You just come across as a poor mans Ethan
		
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I think this is the definition of playing the man and not the ball. It doesn’t matter what I say, you always look for offence in it. That must be tiring.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Kellfire asked a perfectly reasonable question in a perfectly reasonable manner.

The outrage is laughable considering many people think that blatant discrimination is okay, as long as you discriminate against a whole group of people. And that its fine if it says so in the club rules.

I wonder which forum members have been or are committee members who make these rules?
		
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There’s no outrage, so please let’s not over react.
I’m very sorry, but Kellfire’s question wasn’t reasonable, he know’s exactly what he posted and he knows enough about the military to know that isn’t how they work, he has stated his anti-military views numerous times on here and approx 3 posts prior to the one I answered he tried to belittle Phil.

I am in no way friendly or a mate of Phil’s but he certainly doesn’t deserve his service being questioned.

If anything, Kellfire’s continous snidey, smart ar5e comments are a form of trolling and mental bullying imo.

Maybe he should think of others mental health and were they are in their life before posting as he does.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think this is the definition of playing the man and not the ball. It doesn’t matter what I say, you always look for offence in it. That must be tiring.
		
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No, it's not always what you say that I find offensive its the way you say it when trying to look superior in intellect to people who disagree with you, if that's not playing the ball so be it. 

The only thing that I find tiring is wondering why you do it !


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			No, it's not always what you say that I find offensive its the way you say it when trying to look superior in intellect to people who disagree with you, if that's not playing the ball so be it.

The only thing that I find tiring is wondering why you do it !
		
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In this case I simply asked Phil a question. I guess you are the sort of person who finds being questioned demeaning? That’s incredibly arrogant which oddly I bet is something you’d accuse me of being.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			In this case I simply asked Phil a question. I guess you are the sort of person who finds being questioned demeaning? That’s incredibly arrogant which oddly I bet is something you’d accuse me of being.
		
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I pointed out earlier it was nothing to do with Phil and you, or about being questioned, it was in support of Pauls comment about your posting style which always seems to have a personal put down for anyone who questions you. See post#333


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## Kellfire (Oct 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I pointed out earlier it was nothing to do with Phil and you, or about being questioned, it was in support of Pauls comment about your posting style which always seems to have a personal put down for anyone who questions you. See post#333
		
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You mean the post in which you insult me and Ethan?


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## Orikoru (Oct 11, 2021)

This thread is getting really silly. I'm only just catching up, but it seems like Kellfire asked a reasonable question out of curiosity, LiverpoolPhil answered it in a fair and succinct manner, and nobody else's opinion on that exchange was really needed??


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			This thread is getting really silly. I'm only just catching up, but it seems like Kellfire asked a reasonable question out of curiosity, LiverpoolPhil answered it in a fair and succinct manner, and nobody else's opinion on that exchange was really needed?? 

Click to expand...

Because you never joined in on a thread, commented and had an opinion have you?

The Hypocrisy is tremendous.


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## Orikoru (Oct 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Because you never joined in on a thread, commented and had an opinion have you?

The Hypocrisy is tremendous.
		
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I don't get why people are jumping down Kellfire's throat for asking a question which has already been duly answered. All you're going to do is get the thread locked, but crack on if you want.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I don't get why people are jumping down Kellfire's throat for asking a question which has already been duly answered. All you're going to do is get the thread locked, but crack on if you want.
		
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You mean the post were phil answered and has received no acknowledgement from Kellfire, or my initial post he ignored and then gone on to play the victim.

Why should Phil take it as a genuine question when hours earlier in the football thread he was taking the p!ss out of how phil posts?

Isn’t respect a 2 way street?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

Anyway back to the topic

Our first step when I joined the comp committee was to bring in more mixed comps to allow the ladies at weekends to be able to play competitive golf 

The current step was to allow all members to play of whites if they wish 

Next step is to allow guests 

Next step - chance colour of the tees - remove the red and yellow and bring 
Blue  - forward tees
Whites - general play tees
Black - competition tees

And the final step will be for all tees to be used by all whenever they wish 

As with mixed comps etc the strongest resistance to the changes has come from the ladies section -


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## patricks148 (Oct 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I don't know if this is the case at Nairn - don't actually remember which tees I played from when I visited you up there - but there is a reason why women at many clubs are reluctant to have men playing from "their" tees. That's because, frequently, the "women's" tees are very small and poorly maintained compared to the "men's" tees and they simply can't handle the increased traffic. Moreover, due to the shorter distance you find lots of men play irons from those tees so dig them up quite badly. Factor in, also, that women generally don't have separate casual and competition tees so they can get quite protective of them. Men's sections are generally many times the size of the women's so even a small proportion playing forward could be many more players than the handful of women playing further back.

Personally, I am all in favour of gender-free tees and people playing whichever suits their ability or mood but lots of clubs need to do a lot of work to bring their forward tees up to scratch, IMO. Maybe the prospect of male members seeing the poor quality of these is actually what's needed to bring that investment....
		
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 If my memory serves me right uou used the red tees and had to give some shots back due to the difference on Sss difference.
As for ware and tear on the tees This is not the case in this instance, there are no longer any gender specific tees and it was made clear on many occasions, the green and silver tees are probably the best condition tee,s on the course, guys who might use an iron off the tee just don't use these tee,s. The silver tees were brought in for the ladies because they made stink because the men had 3 separate tees to use, so the club built these further forward and had them rated, the ladies section have point blank refused to use the silver. Had an email this morning saying the next vice captain of the club was going to be the current ladies captain. The very person lobbying for the ladies to play in the men's matches and point blank refusing to either include men in their matches and keep them woman only... agm is going to be interesting 😉


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## patricks148 (Oct 11, 2021)

Back on track please and stop the personal attacks, any more and I'll have to set fragger on you


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 11, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Didn't know that as I have never been asked when I sign in.
		
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You would only be asked if in a competition if more thjan one tee was available for your gender.  Though for General Play scores you would always be asked,  assuming that the course has more than one tee rated for your gender.


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## sunshine (Oct 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I don't know if this is the case at Nairn - don't actually remember which tees I played from when I visited you up there - but there is a reason why women at many clubs are reluctant to have men playing from "their" tees. That's because, frequently, the "women's" tees are very small and poorly maintained compared to the "men's" tees and they simply can't handle the increased traffic. Moreover, due to the shorter distance you find lots of men play irons from those tees so dig them up quite badly. Factor in, also, that women generally don't have separate casual and competition tees so they can get quite protective of them. Men's sections are generally many times the size of the women's so even a small proportion playing forward could be many more players than the handful of women playing further back.
		
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This is helpful insight. I was struggling to understand why somebody would be protective over tees!


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## sunshine (Oct 11, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Just after the first lock down,  we had a very famous LET and LPGA tour player visit our course,  she shot 68 off the whites.  I've only heard pride from our member's that she chose to visit our members club and no critisim of her playing off the "men's  tee's.
		
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Indeed. But based on this thread, there are several people on here who don't believe she should have been "allowed" to play off the whites. Rules are rules.


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## sunshine (Oct 11, 2021)

My club is also going to have a female captain in a couple of years. Makes no difference to me, but I'm glad that progress is happening.

I don't do club politics, but if I had to guess, I reckon she is likely to have more challenges with obstructive people in the Ladies section than any sexist male members.


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## AliMc (Oct 11, 2021)

sunshine said:



			My club is also going to have a female captain in a couple of years. Makes no difference to me, but I'm glad that progress is happening.

I don't do club politics, but if I had to guess, I reckon she is likely to have more challenges with obstructive people in the Ladies section than any sexist male members.
		
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We have had a female club captain for the last 3 years, should have been a 2 year stint but the handover was delayed due to the pandemic, and other than gender comps anyone can play off whatever tee they want at all times, our current lady club champion frequently plays off the whites with her grandfather and a couple of his mates


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Indeed. But based on this thread, there are several people on here who don't believe she should have been "allowed" to play off the whites. Rules are rules.
		
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If the club have a policy that only allows certain tees to be used for certain events or people why can’t people just respect the clubs wishes ? 

Surely the process is simple - ask the club if it’s ok , if they say no then respect that 

And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code. 

And if the player doesn’t like the rule then don’t play there 

But no one shoold be able to do whatever they want regardless of rules a club has put in place and that’s the same for any tour player regardless of sex 

I have no issues with a lady playing of any colour tee provided the rules of the club allow them too


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## sunshine (Oct 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code.
		
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Here we go - first mention of dress code!!! 

Rules enforcing what tees people are allowed to use are about as pompous as rules about socks. Not all rules are equal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Here we go - first mention of dress code!!! 

Rules enforcing what tees people are allowed to use are about as pompous as rules about socks. Not all rules are equal.
		
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But they are rules - rules that I would expect every member and visitor to follow regardless of how stupid they maybe for some - that’s life within Golf. 

People aren’t forced to play the club with those silly rules - always have the choice


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## AliMc (Oct 11, 2021)

I think Dunbar took the view that as we are asking between £90 and £125 a round it's a bit much to to tell folk they can't play off the medals, we are lucky though that we have numerous tees on all holes, on non medal days the whites are generally moved forward to the front of the back tees


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## BiMGuy (Oct 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If the club have a policy that *only allows certain tees to be used for certain* events or *people* why can’t people just respect the clubs wishes ?

Surely the process is simple - ask the club if it’s ok , if they say no then respect that

And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code.

And if the player doesn’t like the rule then don’t play there

But no one shoold be able to do whatever they want regardless of rules a club has put in place and that’s the same for any tour player regardless of sex

I have no issues with a lady playing of any colour tee provided the rules of the club allow them too
		
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Just because a club makes a rule doesn't mean its not discriminating against a particular group. 

Change the subject to race or disability. Does your argument still apply?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Just because a club makes a rule doesn't mean its not discriminating against a particular group.

Change the subject to race or disability. Does your argument still apply?
		
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Do clubs only allow people of a certain race to go off certain tees 🤷‍♂️


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## BiMGuy (Oct 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do clubs only allow people of a certain race to go off certain tees 🤷‍♂️
		
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Not that I am aware of. But would it be ok just because a club made a rule to ban certain races from certain tees?


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## Billysboots (Oct 11, 2021)

This is all getting a bit silly now.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Change the subject to race or disability. Does your argument still apply?
		
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Yes, in the same absurd way one could argue Poland was just letting Hitler play through to prevent holding up play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			This is all getting a bit silly now.
		
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Yep - 

Was speaking to someone who has been involved in course design for your average golf club 

Each tee is designed for the relevant ability of the players they expect to be playing from that tee - the forward tees designed predominantly for females with placements of bunkers etc and where the tee is placed taking account of the distances they average club female hits the ball - and the same with the yellows and whites etc 

Now most clubs that have rules for which tee is used for what do it because that’s how the course is designed to help with both the pace of play and the enjoyment of the golfer 

But what needs to happen for all clubs is ability is looked at first and foremost now when deciding which tee is used as well as listening to the greenstaff in regards tee wear and pace of play


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 11, 2021)

It’s all getting a bit silly and extreme now. 
Time to stop unless you have something constructive to add


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## evemccc (Oct 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			but there is a reason why women at many clubs are reluctant to have men playing from "their" tees. That's because, frequently, the "women's" tees are very small and poorly maintained compared to the "men's" tees and they simply can't handle the increased traffic. Moreover, due to the shorter distance you find lots of men play irons from those tees so dig them up quite badly. Factor in, also, that women generally don't have separate casual and competition tees so they can get quite protective of them. Men's sections are generally many times the size of the women's so even a small proportion playing forward could be many more players than the handful of women playing further back.
.
		
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Irrespective of the (accepted as true, and something I think should change) general lack of choice for women’s tees (casual and comp often being the same), just taking your point above, you can’t have it both ways 

I think a fair observer of the vast majority of clubs would record a very large majority of male golfers — women members are far fewer….so west and tear on ‘their’ tees is like to be far less 

You can’t condone or excuse away some women being reluctant to share ‘their’ tees…with higher cap men or seniors. The state of Yellow tees is routinely far worse than the Reds….and that’s because they’re used far m, far less


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## GB72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Is this not the point of the slope system, that you can play off any tee and adjust your  handicap accordingly. At my old club, most of the regular weekly comps allowed you to pick your tee when you collected your card and your handicap was adjusted accordingly for the comp. 

The problem lies in that the club only had provision for the men to pick white or yellow and that is wrong. The systems should have been applied accross all tees allowing men to play off the reds and women to play of the yellows or whites. With a system in place that allows adjustment for what tee you play off, is there really any excuse not ao allow people to enter off whatever tee is the most fun for them. Having fun playing is, after all, the idea.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Is this not the point of the slope system, that you can play off any tee and adjust your  handicap accordingly. At my old club, most of the regular weekly comps allowed you to pick your tee when you collected your card and your handicap was adjusted accordingly for the comp.

The problem lies in that the club only had provision for the men to pick white or yellow and that is wrong. The systems should have been applied accross all tees allowing men to play off the reds and women to play of the yellows or whites. With a system in place that allows adjustment for what tee you play off, is there really any excuse not ao allow people to enter off whatever tee is the most fun for them. Having fun playing is, after all, the idea.
		
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Theoretically, men and women could have been rated to play of ANY tee before WHS and slope. Slope is simply an added benefit in that it takes into account the relative difference between golfers of different abilities. However, at the time WHS was being driven out, there was also a desire to rate men and women of all sets of tees at a course as well. Some courses did, some didn't. However, those that didn't were not necessarily against it, it is simply that there was poor communication between the authorities and clubs. At my last club, no one on the Committee was asked how they wanted the tees rated, we were just told the raters had been out one day and we got the results some time later. By default, they just rated the reds for women and yellows and whites for men. Had we been asked before they came to the course, we likely would have rated the tees for all sexes. Mind you, once done, I've not known there to be a demand from any of the club golfers to do this. I am sure if there is in the future, clubs will ask for more ratings.


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## GB72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Theoretically, men and women could have been rated to play of ANY tee before WHS and slope. Slope is simply an added benefit in that it takes into account the relative difference between golfers of different abilities. However, at the time WHS was being driven out, there was also a desire to rate men and women of all sets of tees at a course as well. Some courses did, some didn't. However, those that didn't were not necessarily against it, it is simply that there was poor communication between the authorities and clubs. At my last club, no one on the Committee was asked how they wanted the tees rated, we were just told the raters had been out one day and we got the results some time later. By default, they just rated the reds for women and yellows and whites for men. Had we been asked before they came to the course, we likely would have rated the tees for all sexes. Mind you, once done, I've not known there to be a demand from any of the club golfers to do this. I am sure if there is in the future, clubs will ask for more ratings.
		
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I guess that the question then has to be, were the women asked if they would like the option to play off other tees. I can see the original situations being an omission but was this followed up with any request for the raters to attend again.  With regards the demand, with the majority of members being men and with the way that the women are sometimes treated at clubs, I am not surprised that there is not an audible clamour for the ladies to be allowed to play off the 'mens' tees'.

Not having a go at you or, indeed, your club, just expressing the frustration as to the inequalities that exist within golf clubs in general.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I guess that the question then has to be, were the women asked if they would like the option to play off other tees. I can see the original situations being an omission but was this followed up with any request for the raters to attend again.  With regards the demand, with the majority of members being men and with the way that the women are sometimes treated at clubs, I am not surprised that there is not an audible clamour for the ladies to be allowed to play off the 'mens' tees'.

Not having a go at you or, indeed, your club, just expressing the frustration as to the inequalities that exist within golf clubs in general.
		
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To be honest, there were probably around a dozen ladies at our club, all at a very beginner level. When I joined in 2005, there was a healthy ladies section. However, a year or 2 later, pretty much the entire ladies section left the club after a huge fallout with the owner, where he effectively bullied a lady into tears. I have heard many stories since, such as a lady who used to be at the club informed us that he once locked her in a cupboard. Recently, about 80-90% of the mens section (who played in comps) have left the club due to recent fallouts with him, including pretty much the entire Committee. Ironically, it is one of the few inexperienced ladies at the club who has pretty much taken up every role on the Committee until they sort themselves out.

Pre latest fallout, in my time at the Committee, the comp sec for the Mens Section opened up all competitions to both men and women. Although there were few women, there was one who liked to play competitively, and so she played regularly. For some of the more social comps, we had some other groups of ladies who started to play. The intention was for us to make it a friendly club for all, and things were improving as time went on. Sadly, every step forward we took was usually followed by 10 leaps backwards when the owner did something to undo everything we did. There is no doubt that, had we been asked, we would have had all tees rated for all. Had we still been at the club, we may well be asking for this assessment to be done. However, I think the rating teams were that busy, trying to get all the courses ready for WHS, that they didn't automatically do this. If a club subsequently requested it, I'm unsure how quickly it could have been done. Only after WHS launched, clubs have slowly started to realise this could have been an option. I'm guessing most clubs who have not had it done either are still not aware it could be done, or waiting for WHS settles down in general before requesting the additional information, or do not themselves think it is an issue with their members. Certainly, if any ladies feel hard done by, they should make their feelings known to the club. Same with men who want to play off reds. I don't think a club can be accused of discrimination until it actively ignores the pleas of its members


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I guess that the question then has to be, were the women asked if they would like the option to play off other tees. I can see the original situations being an omission but was this followed up with any request for the raters to attend again.  With regards the demand, with the majority of members being men and with the way that the women are sometimes treated at clubs, I am not surprised that there is not an audible clamour for the ladies to be allowed to play off the 'mens' tees'.

Not having a go at you or, indeed, your club, just expressing the frustration as to the inequalities that exist within golf clubs in general.
		
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As I see it the problem is we still see Men’s and Ladies tees .
Not Members tees !
All tees should be rated for all members.
So forward tees , middle tees , back tees, and comp tees if you have them.

If more members start using the forward tees then they will need upgrading to a standard and size to accommodate the members that use them.
At my club the “ red tees “ are on the main tees mostly.
But we do have quite a few Ladies and the tees that are forward of the main tee are maintained to a very high standard.
As they should be as the Ladies pay the same as the rest of us.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Oct 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			As I see it the problem is we still see Men’s and Ladies tees .
Not Members tees !
All tees should be rated for all members.
So forward tees , middle tees , back tees, and comp tees if you have them.

If more members start using the forward tees then they will need upgrading to a standard and size to accommodate the members that use them.
At my club the “ red tees “ are on the main tees mostly.
But we do have quite a few Ladies and the tees that are forward of the main tee are maintained to a very high standard.
As they should be as the Ladies pay the same as the rest of us.
		
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I know some clubs will struggle with space but changing to defining it as members tees may allow quite different distances and even angles to fairways so you feel you have more variation when play your home course.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 5, 2021)

KenL said:



			This is a wind up right?  Your last sentence was an absolute disgrace.
		
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I'm American.  I have altogether different rules and recognize no need for apologies!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2021)

Played today, young lad said to me, the two ladies haven’t even looked behind them.
I said to him “ that’s because they have been abused by the old boys and now any one in trousers gets ignored due to being potentially rude.” 
This is where we have got, I try my best to be polite and change this but seriously needs to be addressed and we need to get everyone to respect each other … and let me play through 🤣


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