# Bifurcation? Pros & Cons?



## Sats (Feb 2, 2021)

Bifurcation on equipment for the pros? 

Would we see a level playing field? Would it change anything for the better? 

I can see both good and bad aspects of doing this. 

Thoughts?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 2, 2021)

If we reined in the ball & possibly clubs for pros, it would save an awful lot of currently good courses wasting money Tiger-proofing themselves, sadly it's too late for a number of them.

The game the pros play is now so far removed from mine I don't see that it matters one jot if they played with different equipment, however those selling the equipment would view it differently and I think that's where the money & influence lie, so I don't see it changing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2021)

All pros, no cons for me.

Have a pro version of a pro V1 and an amateur version, other balls are available 😄. They do it with rally cars and no one blinks. 

It won't damage the game one jot and might bring back into play some fabulous courses which have been beaten into submission. It may also help end the monotonous lengthening of courses which is simply dull.

Hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later.


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## rulefan (Feb 2, 2021)

Sats said:



			Bifurcation on equipment for the pros?

Would we see a level playing field? Would it change anything for the better?

I can see both good and bad aspects of doing this.

Thoughts?
		
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It's not bifurcation, the LRs would be available to all.


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## Crow (Feb 2, 2021)

It would be great if they introduced a ball that played and span like the old balata ball did, I'd be buying them straight away.


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## Imurg (Feb 2, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It's not bifurcation, the LRs would be available to all.
		
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It will effectively be bifurcation as the changes won't affect amateurs for years.
They can't suddenly drop the prospect of us being unable,e to use the clubs we have in a monthly medal this summer....
No club is going to impose that on their members.


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## jim8flog (Feb 2, 2021)

Because the pros do not have handicaps there is already a small amount of bifurcation. Eg Tees are put wherever the organisers want them, lift clean and place is a club length.

There are drop zones for water hazards (never since this anywhere other than a pro tournament).


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## jim8flog (Feb 2, 2021)

On a personal level I do not see the problem. It happens in other 'sports' such as snooker with the 'miss' rule.


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## MarkT (Feb 2, 2021)

One that always comes up is when an amateur qualifies for the Open so has to change ball or do elite amateurs play with the 'pro ball'? Where does the pro ball come in?


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## USER1999 (Feb 2, 2021)

MarkT said:



			One that always comes up is when an amateur qualifies for the Open so has to change ball or do elite amateurs play with the 'pro ball'? Where does the pro ball come in?
		
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It works with baseball. Aluminium bat but pro's play with wooden. It's not like this is impossible to work out.


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## Imurg (Feb 2, 2021)

MarkT said:



			One that always comes up is when an amateur qualifies for the Open so has to change ball or do elite amateurs play with the 'pro ball'? Where does the pro ball come in?
		
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To be fair, the only amateurs likely to qualify for The Open are going to be Elite and they should probably already be using Pro equipment if they have an eye of turning Pro..


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 2, 2021)

Have written an article on this recently which I think might be coming out soon but essentially;

The issue with the rollback / bifurcation debate is that they haven't even come close to sorting out the logistics. 

As Mark says, there's an issue around 'elite amateurs'. It's all well and good saying that they should use the pro ball if they want to turn pro, but what do you use in the English Amateur, or County Am - where do you draw the line? What balls do they play in US colleges? What about our University system, where less people are looking to 'make it'.

If elite Ams need to move over to the 'pro' ball, what ball does my local pro play? We've got lads of +2 that are already 30 yards longer than our pro, and our pro played in the Walker Cup! What happens in a Pro-am? Not just your local club Pro-Am, but things like the Pebble Beach pro-am?

How does the pro get his 'pro' ball? Does he have to buy them for his own use? 

Will there be just 1 pro ball to standardise it, or will every company have their own? 

What facilities are there to test people aren't sneakily using the wrong ball? Pretty easy to cover a logo with a sharpie etc? 

Where do you roll it back to? John Daly was averaging over 300 yards in the late 90's - with metalwoods which went much shorter than today's?

There's definitely ways around restricting distance, but very worried that this will get rammed through at the top of the game, without proper thought of how it filters down.


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## Orikoru (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm not sure why they mention limiting the length of the driver shaft - that appears to be designed to only punish Bryson, since I'm pretty sure it's only him and Mickelson who are using longer drivers. Most stick with 44-45 for control I thought.


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 2, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I'm not sure why they mention limiting the length of the driver shaft - that appears to be designed to only punish Bryson, since I'm pretty sure it's only him and Mickelson who are using longer drivers. Most stick with 44-45 for control I thought.
		
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100% agree. If he wants a 48" shaft, he'll just get it cut to 47.99" - this was a bit of a daft one for me.

Would much rather they explored things like the number of clubs in a bag, size of club head, minimum loft on driver - but as per the above, I still don't know how you actually implement this stuff successfully throughout the game as a whole.


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## USER1999 (Feb 2, 2021)

It's really being over complicated. There used to be two balls, one small, one big. Players adapted. It really wasn't that big an issue.
We have transitioned through different balls, grooves, drivers, all with little difficulty. It can be done again.
At the moment, the rules bodies have bottled it. They are frightened the pga tour will break away, and end up playing something that looks like golf, but isn't, because their members are stakeholders and won't like it.
I agree with Jimbob, to an extend, go to 10 clubs for pro's, limit driver loft to 9 degrees plus, bin off anything over a 56, and re-introduce some shot making. Play a spinnier ball, give the best a real chance of showing just how good they can be. It's only the journeymen who will struggle, and who turns on the telly to watch them?


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## banjofred (Feb 2, 2021)

Haven't I seen it somewhere where somebody had suggested only giving them tees that were an inch or so long?


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## rulefan (Feb 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			lift clean and place is a club length.
		
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It's a club length in North America and most of the rest of the world amateur game.


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## badgermat (Feb 3, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Would much rather they explored things like the number of clubs in a bag, size of club head, minimum loft on driver - but as per the above, I still don't know how you actually implement this stuff successfully throughout the game as a whole.
		
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As far as I can see it, this would be easiest way to deal with the professional game without affecting everyone else. Just limit the pros to a minimum loft of, say, 20 degrees, with an appropriate shaft length and maybe head volume too. 

You could even go the whole hog and create a specific PGA club-set, but I doubt that's really necessary. The point of all this seems to be to limit driving distance more than anything else.

bm


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## sweaty sock (Feb 3, 2021)

Its already bifurcated.  Pros clubs and balls are far superior to amatuers.  Better fitted, better matched, made tot tighter manufacturing tolerances, tested more.  Some pros even have specific ball recipies made just for them....


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## GB72 (Feb 3, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Its already bifurcated.  Pros clubs and balls are far superior to amatuers.  Better fitted, better matched, made tot tighter manufacturing tolerances, tested more.  Some pros even have specific ball recipies made just for them....
		
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Exactly this. I remember and interview with Ian Poulter, going back a few years now when he was with Cobra. It used to cost £20000.00 to make him a set of irons and they bore very little resemblance to what was being sold as the same clubs off the shelf. Guess it is the same across the bag with everything being made to order. I am happy to be proved wrong but I think it is one of golf's great illusions that amateurs and professionals are playing with anything like the same equipment.


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## rulefan (Feb 3, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Some pros even have specific ball recipies made just for them....
		
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Where did you get that from? Donald Trump's Twitter posts?


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Where did you get that from? Donald Trump's Twitter posts?
		
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They certainly still make older, non current golf balls for certain pro's. I have seen this mentioned in WITB interviews.

A few years back Nike were marketing Tiger's ball as being the one he used. It was subsequently proved to not be the case, so Nike were fined, and then released a limited run of actual Tiger golf balls. The fact that they were tailored to Tigers requirements meant that not many would get the best out of them.


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2021)

Who cares?

Not many drivers could use an F1  'car'.

 Professional sport is different.


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It works with baseball. Aluminium bat but pro's play with wooden. It's not like this is impossible to work out.
		
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Perfect..... just make the pro's play with hickory shafts


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Perfect..... just make the pro's play with hickory shafts 

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That wasn't quite what I meant. It might work though.


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## Imurg (Feb 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			That wasn't quite what I meant. It might work though.
		
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Bryson would have to play with oak shafts about 3 inches thick........


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 3, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Bryson would have to play with oak shafts about 3 inches thick........
		
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He can play with oars instead


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## MarkT (Feb 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Exactly this. I remember and interview with Ian Poulter, going back a few years now when he was with Cobra. It used to cost £20000.00 to make him a set of irons and they bore very little resemblance to what was being sold as the same clubs off the shelf. Guess it is the same across the bag with everything being made to order. I am happy to be proved wrong but I think it is one of golf's great illusions that amateurs and professionals are playing with anything like the same equipment.
		
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Read yesterday that Adam Scott’s driver shaft cost $790


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

MarkT said:



			Read yesterday that Adam Scott’s driver shaft cost $790
		
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In terms of exotic shafts, that is budget. It's not even the cost of the original PXG driver.


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## Orikoru (Feb 3, 2021)

I just saw this list of driving distance leaders over the years - don't ask me for the source, it was some guy on Facebook but I assume he didn't just fabricate it. It's not really indicative of a growing problem.

Unless that problem is named Bryson. 👀


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I just saw this list of driving distance leaders over the years - don't ask me for the source, it was some guy on Facebook but I assume he didn't just fabricate it. It's not really indicative of a growing problem.

Unless that problem is named Bryson. 👀
		
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What might be interesting to see, I don't know the answer by the way, is the number of people hitting these distances now. In the past it was probably only small numbers of golfers. Now I suspect it is a big chunk of the field. Add into that the younger golfer coming through is going to be fitter, more athletic than before, trained from the begining to hit big numbers rather than looking to stroke the ball. This move is looking to the future, not just the present.


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## Orikoru (Feb 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What might be interesting to see, I don't know the answer by the way, is the number of people hitting these distances now. In the past it was probably only small numbers of golfers. Now I suspect it is a big chunk of the field. Add into that the younger golfer coming through is going to be fitter, more athletic than before, trained from the begining to hit big numbers rather than looking to stroke the ball. This move is looking to the future, not just the present.
		
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I suspect you're right but that's the issue - it's young athletic college golfers coming through, nothing to do with equipment.


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I suspect you're right but that's the issue - it's young athletic college golfers coming through, nothing to do with equipment.
		
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Fine, give them a batata ball and persimmon then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I suspect you're right but that's the issue - it's young athletic college golfers coming through, nothing to do with equipment.
		
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You can't stop improvements in fitness and distance technique, tournaments seem reluctant to set up courses to restrict the bombers so the only thing left is equipment.


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## GB72 (Feb 3, 2021)

It is an interesting one that needs some joined up thinking. The race to gain more distance was an obvious one, from a marketing point of view for the manufacturers and from a playing point of view in that added distance took many hazards out of play. The response to that was longer courses which increased the quest for more distance whilst makin a number of classic courses unsuited to the modern game. The more obvious solution may have been to tighten courses, increase the penalty for being wide etc but that would mean an end to champagne golf filled with long drives and birdies and those in charge, one assumes, did not see that as an attractive option. 

The whole thing still seems a bit disjointed. If you aim regulations at the clubs then you have to draw up all sorts of rules, specifications etc, test dozens of makes and models. If you aimed the rules at the ball, what would you need to do, test maybe a dozen variants with one set of new parameters. The testing could be done in a couple of days.


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## Orikoru (Feb 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You can't stop improvements in fitness and distance technique, tournaments seem reluctant to set up courses to restrict the bombers so the only thing left is equipment.
		
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I just don't really get it. When Usain Bolt smashed the 100 metre record they didn't start talking about how they had to make track shoes heavier. Progress is progress.


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## GB72 (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I just don't really get it. When Usain Bolt smashed the 100 metre record they didn't start talking about how they had to make track shoes heavier. Progress is progress.
		
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Actually there were talks along those lines in relation to marathon runners and a type of Nike shoe. 

I guess if people are happy watching people smash the ball around long, soulless courses with scores of 20+ under par then all well and good but there is always going to be the entertainment factor. If people want to watch that, fine. People want to watch the hundred meters run quicker and quicker, do they want to watch golf become a game played with a driver, a wedge and a putter.


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## IanM (Feb 3, 2021)

Even the title given to it demonstrates that they will cock it up!

We are not in the hands of rational people


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I just don't really get it. When Usain Bolt smashed the 100 metre record they didn't start talking about how they had to make track shoes heavier. Progress is progress.
		
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No, progress isn't progress when it is detrimental to the fundamentals of the game. 
Pro level golf has become one dimensional. Bomb it, and wedge into the green. Even par 5s are rarely more than driver 8i.
You weren't around to see some of the greats. The way they moved the ball, controlled the flight, played the game. It took imagination, great skill, especially using the kit they used. To hit a batata ball 300 yards was unbelievable, yet a few could do it. To play a needed 3i off a downhill lie at Augusta, into a narrow green not designed to take a 3i. It was golf.
The smash and grab that passes for golf now is no improvement. It is barely recognisable.
Grow the rough, narrow the fairways? Yep, it'll be a bore fest. Everyone reduced to the same. Hacking it out. It's terrible to watch, and the punters will switch off in droves.
Most on here revere Seve. He wouldn't feature in today's game. The way he played would be Impossible with modern balls and clubs.

The horse bolted long ago, the game is the worst for it, and the governing bodies ignored it til it was way too late.


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## jim8flog (Feb 3, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Some pros even have specific ball recipies made just for them....
		
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The only pro that I knew who had that done was Greg Norman. He had an extra hard (compression wise) version of (I think from memory) of the Spalding Tour Edition because he was trying to reduce the amount of back spin he was getting.


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## jim8flog (Feb 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Fine, give them a *batata* ball and persimmon then.
		
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 I was wondering about the spelling police thing but then I saw it again



murphthemog said:



			. It took imagination, great skill, especially using the kit they used. To hit a *batata* ball 300 yards was unbelievable, .
		
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ba*l*ata


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## Orikoru (Feb 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Actually there were talks along those lines in relation to marathon runners and a type of Nike shoe.

I guess if people are happy watching people smash the ball around long, soulless courses with scores of 20+ under par then all well and good but there is always going to be the entertainment factor. If people want to watch that, fine. People want to watch the hundred meters run quicker and quicker, do they want to watch golf become a game played with a driver, a wedge and a putter.
		
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I'm just not sure tying one hand behind their backs is the answer. I'm more of subscriber to the theory that you make the courses tougher for bombers, narrow the fairways the further up you go, fairway bunkers higher up, make the rough much harder to get out of it. And if someone can still hit it 360 and land it on a sixpence then they absolutely deserve the advantage of doing so.


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I was wondering about the spelling police thing but then I saw it again



ba*l*ata
		
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I can spell it, I played with it for ages, my typing is bad on a tablet. There is no need to be a spelling police numpty.


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## jim8flog (Feb 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I can spell it, I played with it for ages, my typing is bad on a tablet. There is no need to be a spelling police numpty.
		
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 I was wondering about a typo but when I saw where the L and T are on a keyboard forgetting about other devices.


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			...
People want to watch the hundred meters run quicker and quicker...
		
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Actually, I believe 'people' (certainly I/me) want to watch *competitive* running! That doesn't *have* to be world record times made on ultra-fast tracks/conditions. but that's a fairly inevitable result of 'progress'.
There ARE certain athletic events where 'progress' has been markedly 'slower' than sprints/'middle' distance/ engineered marathons - such as Discus/Javelin/Shot Put - at least where the athletes are recognised as 'clean'!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I just don't really get it. When Usain Bolt smashed the 100 metre record they didn't start talking about how they had to make track shoes heavier. Progress is progress.
		
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I think people need to decide what type of sport they want to watch. It is inherent within athletics to go faster, further higher etc. Watching the improvements is exciting to see. With golf the joy is in the process, not necessarily just the end score.

If bomb and gouge on long and bland courses floats your boat then leave all alone. If you want more shot variety, different tests on different courses then some small changes are needed.


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## MarkT (Feb 3, 2021)

Rory on the project... ‘huge waste of time and money’

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/to...project-a-huge-waste-of-time-and-money-218583


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2021)

MarkT said:



			Rory on the project... ‘huge waste of time and money’

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/to...project-a-huge-waste-of-time-and-money-218583

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This is exactly why the views of current players are totally and utterly irrelevant. They can't see the wood for the trees, they don't want to rock the tree with the golden apples on it. The fact that they might benefit from it goes whoosh, right over their heads.


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## MarkT (Feb 3, 2021)

Spoke to a player on the senior tour today and he said there’s no chance that they will ever use a tournament ball, same with the ladies. Also made the amusing point where you could have a Sunningdale Foursomes pair with different balls. 
Everyone seems to think that any pro/elite amateurs will all have to use a tournament ball when the likelihood is they won’t.

He also said it would take two days max to get used to a different ball


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## MarkT (Feb 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It works with baseball. Aluminium bat but pro's play with wooden. It's not like this is impossible to work out.
		
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What about senior pros and women where the course doesn’t have to be stretched?


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## JustOne (Feb 3, 2021)

For me I'd like to leave everything as it is. I don't find watching or playing golf boring. I don't care if someone hits the ball 400yds, I find that intriguing and love the idea that someone who works harder at their game can be better than other players. I'm not that interested in watching all the players 'cross the line' at the same time (like a horse race handicap system).


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## Junior (Feb 4, 2021)

Seems to me that  all thr old "back in my day" pros are calling for it and the concensus of tour players today are not.  (Rory's comments last night).  

The pro game is running away from the amateur game in terms of length because of skill and the amount of hard yards pros put in in the gym on strength and flexibility.   I think its impressive and shouldn't be punished by bifurcation.


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

Local Rules available to all committees are not bifurcation


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Local Rules available to all committees are not bifurcation
		
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A Local Rule that says, for example, that you must use a certain ball or your driver must be lofted 9° or more are simply not going to be used by ordinary Golf Clubs. Ever.
They'll only be used in Pro/Elite events so its Bifurcation via the back door.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2021)

MarkT said:



			Spoke to a player on the senior tour today and *he said there’s no chance that they will ever use a tournament ball, same with the ladies.* Also made the amusing point where you could have a Sunningdale Foursomes pair with different balls.
Everyone seems to think that any pro/elite amateurs will all have to use a tournament ball when the likelihood is they won’t.

He also said it would take two days max to get used to a different ball
		
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Why did he think this?


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 4, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Will there be just 1 pro ball to standardise it, or will every company have their own?
		
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Everyone in pro football (both kinds) uses a standard ball, as do basketball players, baseball players and cricketers.
Why not have everyone in professional golf use the same ball, made in the same plant?
They could have golf ball manufacturers bid for the rights to supply the ball for 1-2 seasons and get the right to say, "the official ball of professional golf."


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Bryson would have to play with oak shafts about 3 inches thick........
		
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You could almost make a movie about something like that.
How about one where an ice hockey player trys to get the money to save his granny's house by playing golf?


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## LincolnShep (Feb 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			A Local Rule that says, for example, that you must use a certain ball or your driver must be lofted 9° or more are simply not going to be used by ordinary Golf Clubs. Ever.
They'll only be used in Pro/Elite events so its Bifurcation via the back door.
		
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Wouldn't it be easier to do it the other way around?  We can carry on using whatever is on the approved equipment list but the professional tours have their own, more restrictive, list and a local rule that says entrants must conform to that list.  The 'pro' list would be a subset of the general list.  Those players on the cusp will find themselves entering some tournaments where they can use everything and others where they can only use pro equipment - giving them a graduated transition.


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## Yorkhacker (Feb 4, 2021)

I wonder how equipment bifurcation would affect prices. If manufacturers are having to develop clubs for 2 markets, surely that's going to cost more and who is going to pay for that. At the same time, surely manufacturers will pay pros less to use their clubs as amateurs won't be able to buy the same clubs 'as used by' Bryson Dechambeau


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It's not bifurcation, the LRs would be available to all.
		
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It will be interesting to understand whether the R&A would apply the LRs to elite amateur events and also whether they would apply to women's golf.

Also be intersting to see how it would be policed after the findings last year when drivers were tested before an event.


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 4, 2021)

LincolnShep said:



			Wouldn't it be easier to do it the other way around?  We can carry on using whatever is on the approved equipment list but the professional tours have their own, more restrictive, list and a local rule that says entrants must conform to that list.  The 'pro' list would be a subset of the general list.  Those players on the cusp will find themselves entering some tournaments where they can use everything and others where they can only use pro equipment - giving them a graduated transition.
		
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Be intersting to understand from the ball manufacturers how dificult it would be to manufacture a ball that doesn't go so far. I am assuming the dimple pattern and cover would not alter just the sub layers to give it a lower compression? Would this be difficult or easy and if so what would be the volumes they would need to make it viable?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Be intersting to understand from the ball manufacturers how dificult it would be to manufacture a ball that doesn't go so far. I am assuming the dimple pattern and cover would not alter just the sub layers to give it a lower compression? Would this be difficult or easy and if so what would be the volumes they would need to make it viable?
		
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They have spent years making a ball go further that I think making it shorter is just a matter of going back to a 1980/90 s ball .
Maybe only the resilience of the cover may differ.
Can’t see it happening. Just to much money involved for the OEMs.
Would be like making PL footballers play with leather balls with laces in them.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 4, 2021)

JustOne said:



			For me I'd like to leave everything as it is. I don't find watching or playing golf boring. I don't care if someone hits the ball 400yds, I find that intriguing and love the idea that someone who works harder at their game can be better than other players. I'm not that interested in watching all the players 'cross the line' at the same time (like a horse race handicap system).
		
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My thoughts entirely too.

I also enjoy playing the same courses as pro golfers in very similar conditions.  Yes tournament set up is different, but playing a great course with the same equipment as them is fun and makes you appreciate their considerable talent.  I'd feel that I was cheating slightly if there was an equipment advantage for amateurs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



			My thoughts entirely too.

I also enjoy playing the same courses as pro golfers in very similar conditions.  Yes tournament set up is different, but playing a great course with the same equipment as them is fun and makes you appreciate their considerable talent.  I'd feel that I was cheating slightly if there was an equipment advantage for amateurs.
		
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You don't play exactly the same course though, as you mention. In pro tournaments the tees are further back, a par 5 may become a par 4, greens will be much faster. Subtle differences but still differences. That is all that is being talked about here as well. Fundamentally the same driver, the same ball but with subtle alterations only.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You don't play exactly the same course though, as you mention. In pro tournaments the tees are further back, a par 5 may become a par 4, greens will be much faster. Subtle differences but still differences. That is all that is being talked about here as well. Fundamentally the same driver, the same ball but with subtle alterations only.
		
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Yes, that was what I was trying to say in that the tournament set up is different.. tees, rough, green speed etc.

Interested to know the difference between a professional version of say ProV1 ball and the amateur version.. is it compression, weight, size?   How much difference does it make in terms of percentage distance?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



			Yes, that was what I was trying to say in that the tournament set up is different.. tees, rough, green speed etc.

Interested to know the difference between a professional version of say ProV1 ball and the amateur version.. is it compression, weight, size?   How much difference does it make in terms of percentage distance?
		
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Sorry, I didn't mean to jump on you there. I guess I don't see the big deal in running slightly different equipment as I think that is already there in reality. Even down to the courses which we can play but are not really the same. That was my point in my reply really, if the differences between the course set up that you and I can play and they do play, are the same as the differences in club and ball between am and pro then is that really a big deal?

I think balls are currently the same aren't they? A pro V1 is a pro V1 I think. Happy to be corrected there.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 4, 2021)

No problem, I totally see your point about the same courses not really being the same.

I thought different versions of equipment and balls was underway already.. possibly too early.  I wonder if the OEMs are working on it or hoping it just goes away, saving them pots of cash.

Make the pros play with my local driving range balls, that would hold them back!


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## MarkT (Feb 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why did he think this?
		
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They play courses at around 6700 yards so isn't a problem and courses don't have to be tweaked to accommodate them


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



			I also enjoy playing the same courses as pro golfers in very similar conditions.
		
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I think you will find that conditions are very different. Back tees are moved further back or moved to a different line. Rough is longer. Non-fairway areas beyond doglegs are enlarged. Stimp speed is upped significantly.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2021)

We played Orange County National in Orlando the day after the Q school for the USPGA tour.
We had a go off the back tees ( bad mistake) 7400 yds soaking wet at 8am.
All of us 2 scratch players and a 4 &5 handicap we struggled to get on the par 4s because of the length.
The par 3s were woods.
And the greens 13 on the stimp were fantastic.
If anyone thinks they play the same conditions as the pros they are wrong.
There are exceptions Old course etc but not many.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I think you will find that conditions are very different. Back tees are moved further back or moved to a different line. Rough is longer. Non-fairway areas beyond doglegs are enlarged. Stimp speed is upped significantly.
		
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True for the ET but I like to watch as much golf as possible on the Challenge and Jamega tours where the courses aren’t always changed as dramatically.


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## Crow (Feb 4, 2021)

MarkT said:



			They play courses at around 6700 yards so isn't a problem and courses don't have to be tweaked to accommodate them
		
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They'll still be playing their second shots from closer to the green than the course designer envisaged.


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## MarkT (Feb 4, 2021)

True, the same pro, who's particularly long, said he would hit wedge on nearly every par 4.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2021)

MarkT said:



			True, the same pro, who's particularly long, said he would hit wedge on nearly every par 4.
		
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I'm guessing that is not for his 3rd shot? 

Not what was intended by the designer, as @Crow suggests


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## banjofred (Feb 4, 2021)

Being an ex track and field coach (and cross country, wrestling, basketball, volleyball, tennis, even....spit spit...UK football/soccer (1 season never to be repeated...)....think back to the javelin days. They got longer and longer.....in danger of throwing out of the area that had traditionally been their area in the middle of the track. *They changed the rules* to keep the javelin from knocking down airplanes and killing people running around the track. Complaints by the zillions....but they dealt with it. Come on golfers....deal with it. Something has to happen...as long as everybody is under the same rules....it's fair. OK...you 63 year old (damn I'm old) folks can't hit it as far....I've heard that having a bigger **** isn't the answer to everything. I admit it....my wedge only goes 90 yards. Cutting a couple of yards out of that means nadda.


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## JustOne (Feb 4, 2021)

Maybe they should just add more hazzards at 'pro length', especially more ditches/streams at 320+yds, that'll add a bit of spice and not affect the average hacker that much.

I can't think of anything worse than shortening the distance that the pros hit.

{in commentators voice....}
"McIroy's absolutely ripped a 260yrd drive straight down the middle...."

BORING!!!!!!!


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2021)

JustOne said:



			Maybe they should just add more hazzards at 'pro length', especially more ditches/streams at 320+yds, that'll add a bit of spice and not affect the average hacker that much.

I can't think of anything worse than shortening the distance that the pros hit.

{in commentators voice....}
"McIroy's absolutely ripped a 260yrd drive straight down the middle...."

BORING!!!!!!!
		
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Sorry James. Rubbish. Utter flipping garbage. Spend millions changing golf courses to add totally unnecessary hazards for the normal golfer, or, limit the equipment a bit. What is easier? Cheaper? More environmentally friendlier?


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2021)

Watching pro golfers drive the ball is pretty boring. It's a closed skill. Tee it up, whack it down your preffered side of the fairway, and that's it. Watching on TV, is there a difference between 300 yards and 340? Or is it only how short the next shot is?
The interest is the second shot. The money shot.
So, a wedge out of 4 inch rough, some spin, and middle of the green?

Or, a 5i, from the short stuff, ditch the silly rough, but you have to cut it, or high draw it to a tight pin, use the contours of the green, may be the approach too. Miss the green, and no, it doesn't snag up 5" off the green in rough, it runs off 20 yards down a slope, because it doesn't spin. Tricky shot back. Sort out the guys who can play a bit.


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## JustOne (Feb 4, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Spend millions changing golf courses to add totally unnecessary hazards for the normal golfer, or, limit the equipment a bit.
		
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I don't think it costs millions to run a ditch across a fairway or two, add a pond, narrow the fairways at 320yds or even grow the rough across the fairway in places.
Some of the best TV golf I've seen are where the pros hit the ball too far and run out of fairway.

Not sure about the 'normal golfer' comment. We can chop it round in continuous double-bogies on most courses.

As I said in a previous post... I'm happy watching and playing golf as it currently is, I happen to like watching pros hitting it 400yds, it blows my mind. There are enough people in the field that CAN'T hit a drive that far so it makes it interesting in a David VS Monster-Hitter-Goliath kinda way.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 4, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			We played Orange County National in Orlando the day after the Q school for the USPGA tour.
We had a go off the back tees ( bad mistake) 7400 yds soaking wet at 8am.
All of us 2 scratch players and a 4 &5 handicap we struggled to get on the par 4s because of the length.
The par 3s were woods.
And the greens 13 on the stimp were fantastic.
If anyone thinks they play the same conditions as the pros they are wrong.
There are exceptions Old course etc but not many.
		
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So what you're saying is that you _did_ play the course in the same conditions as the pros?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



			So what you're saying is that you _did_ play the course in the same conditions as the pros? 

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Yes we did .
And two scratch players would be lucky to break 80.
I shot 85 and played reasonably well.
I hit 3 wood second shots to several par 4s and was still short.
I hit driver at a par 3.
But if you fancy shooting 10 over your handicap when you play so you can play the same course as the pros your welcome to it.
We decided over lunch not to play anything over 6500yds as that’s what we’re used to.

Just to clarify Frank Licklighter won the Q school with 27 under par.
That’s the gulf between scratch and top pro.


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 5, 2021)

Didn't they change the compression of the balls at Wimbledon to encourage more rallies and discourage the big serve dominating the game? This kept the court size the same and didn't appear to change the game for the rest of the players in the world?


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## D-S (Feb 5, 2021)

The rules bodies have already drawn a line as to how far the ball and equipment can hit the ball. There are a long list of equipment specifications and new balls and equipment needs to be within these boundaries. 
So all that the rules bodies are suggesting is that the line (which already has been drawn) is moved. There is no magic about the arbitrary limit of 450cc driver size or the maximum velocity requirements of the ball. It is just where the line has been allowed to get to over the years. Unless there is a clear reason that the line as currently drawn is for some reason absolutely perfect, deciding to redraw it is no big deal.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 5, 2021)

@clubchamp98
It was your comment of "If anyone thinks they play the same conditions as the pros they are wrong" that confused me... having described how you played a course in what sounds like the same conditions as pros 



clubchamp98 said:



			But if you fancy shooting 10 over your handicap when you play so you can play the same course as the pros your welcome to it.
		
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I was lucky enough to play Carnoustie soon after the 2018 Open, got totally beaten up by the course but loved it.  So yes I do enjoy the challenge of playing the same courses as the pros, in whatever conditions.  I'll never score a penalty at Wembley or serve an ace at Wimbledon but being able to play on the same hallowed turf as the best in the world is one of the beauties of golf. If you don't enjoy it, it's up to you.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 5, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



@clubchamp98
It was your comment of "If anyone thinks they play the same conditions as the pros they are wrong" that confused me... having described how you played a course in what sounds like the same conditions as pros 



I was lucky enough to play Carnoustie soon after the 2018 Open, got totally beaten up by the course but loved it.  So yes I do enjoy the challenge of playing the same courses as the pros, in whatever conditions.  I'll never score a penalty at Wembley or serve an ace at Wimbledon but being able to play on the same hallowed turf as the best in the world is one of the beauties of golf. If you don't enjoy it, it's up to you.
		
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Yes I get your point.
But OCN was  a slog it just wasn’t enjoyable at that yardage.
We played it in the afternoon from 6600 yds and it was much more enjoyable.
Playing them courses are not cheap and I think making it to difficult for yourself is not enjoyable.
A links might be different I have played several open courses .
But USA courses are just to long when it’s damp as they water them every morning.
It’s nice to play where the pros play I was lucky enough to play Sawgrass but we didn’t make the same mistake we played 6500 yds and it was awesome.
What a place I would go back tomorrow.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 5, 2021)

@clubchamp98

I know what you mean too, about paying a lot of money to play a course that you don't particularly enjoy and it just being a slog.. it can be a drag and you just can't wait for that cold beer at the end.

The beauty of golf is that there is such a variety of courses.. long, short, links, inland, easy, hard etc.. and within that there are so many variables on the day such as teeing areas, pin positions, weather.  That's what keep us coming back 

Anyway, back to bifurcation...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 5, 2021)

birdyhunter said:



@clubchamp98

I know what you mean too, about paying a lot of money to play a course that you don't particularly enjoy and it just being a slog.. it can be a drag and you just can't wait for that cold beer at the end.

The beauty of golf is that there is such a variety of courses.. long, short, links, inland, easy, hard etc.. and within that there are so many variables on the day such as teeing areas, pin positions, weather.  That's what keep us coming back 

Anyway, back to bifurcation...
		
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Yes spot on .
On most courses on TV we only see the second shots to the greens ,where the bunkers are the slopes on the greens etc ,we can recognise them.
But apart from a few holes who remembers where the pros drives land?
That’s why I think playing from the back tees on top courses is just not enjoyable for most of us.
One of the most enjoyable I have played is Prestwick not overly long but fantastic and all that history.
If you want to play 7000+ fine.
That’s the best of all worlds.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 5, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			One of the most enjoyable I have played is Prestwick not overly long but fantastic and all that history.
		
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I've played a few courses in the USA and although there are some great ones, others are just a slog, especially in the heat... you get chased by buggies and you walk off the course not remembering any of the holes, just ready for a beer. It can be the same over here though.

Playing Carnoustie after the Open was amazing and it properly beat us all up.. even though we played an easier course than the pros... we were off forward tees so it was shorter by probably 500-600 yards.  Molinari had shot 65 at the weekend (using pretty much the same equipment as us, yes tour specs...but no bifurcation  ) and we all though, 'how the f*** did he do that? '  It was great


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