# Titleist and American golf in dispute?



## Simbo (Jan 9, 2017)

Ordered a set of 3 vokey wedges yesterday at American golf as part of the double value trade in deal. The guy ordered on the computer and took my deposit and said he would phone me when the clubs were in.
Just had a phone call tonight from him saying there's some kind of dispute above his pay grade between titleist and American golf so he's unsure if I will still be able to get my wedges, as the order he put in won't go through.
Anyone heard anything or had something similar happen?


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2017)

Someone mentioned on the AG double trade in thread that there seemed to be an issue...
Could get interesting


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## shivas irons (Jan 9, 2017)

Could it happen that the suppliers could kill this promo by pulling their products from AG oo:.


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## Simbo (Jan 9, 2017)

Looks to me like titleist aren't happy with the promo, not sure why unless they are being pressured by other retailers. Surely they will still get the same amount of money for each wedge they sell to American golf?
Just checked and the edges iv ordered are no longer listed on American golf website.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 9, 2017)

Mentioned to the pro at our place the other week about AG . He said it has done loads of problems for his business with members trying to do a price match. As much as AG may be happy, can imagine it has upset one or two.


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## kevingopher (Jan 9, 2017)

In AG Basingstoke last Saturday and the assistant said the same thing. Looks like titleist will not supply AG with anything!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Simbo said:



			Ordered a set of 3 vokey wedges yesterday at American golf as part of the double value trade in deal. The guy ordered on the computer and took my deposit and said he would phone me when the clubs were in.
Just had a phone call tonight from him saying there's some kind of dispute above his pay grade between titleist and American golf so he's unsure if I will still be able to get my wedges, as the order he put in won't go through.
Anyone heard anything or had something similar happen?
		
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hope this is not true I have just order some Ping wedges.g

cant see the problem unless they drop the price of new stuff.

Titleist will still get their profit.
but would think local pros would lose buisness to AG.
Thats dog eat dog in retail.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 9, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			hope this is not true I have just order some Ping wedges.
		
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I think it's only Titleist who have got the hump with AG, you should be fine with your order.


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## Sats (Jan 9, 2017)

Titleist surely can bemoan about a promotion? It's not as if the double up is only aimed at Titleist products now is it? Perhaps it's something else?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2017)

It's all coming down to the affect the promotion is having on golf Pros - they can't match the offers and struggling to sell their own stock and Pros are talking to their reps about it - it's been bubbling along underneath and Titliest I expect will be the first. 

It was always going to happen and the offers were always affecting someone - think the initial start of it


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## Tashyboy (Jan 9, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's all coming down to the affect the promotion is having on golf Pros - they can't match the offers and struggling to sell their own stock and Pros are talking to their reps about it - it's been bubbling along underneath and Titliest I expect will be the first. 

It was always going to happen and the offers were always affecting someone - think the initial start of it
		
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When I got my grandsons clubs from AG, I mentioned to the pro at our place that I had got stuff from AG. He then made a statement which was incorrect about how AG get to there DG. That aside he did say it was hurting him and others


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2017)

If Titleist are sticking their heels in, then surely it'll be the start of others following suit. Not sure what their issue is as surely AG are still paying the cost price Titleist are asking so it's not like they are losing money. Surely if AG then offer the goods at a lower rate it's only their own profit margins that would suffer


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## pokerjoke (Jan 9, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If Titleist are sticking their heels in, then surely it'll be the start of others following suit. Not sure what their issue is as surely AG are still paying the cost price Titleist are asking so it's not like they are losing money. Surely if AG then offer the goods at a lower rate it's only their own profit margins that would suffer
		
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If 100s or even 1000s of Titleist stockist are complaining they cant compete and are losing big business well then perhaps Titleist feel something needs to be done.


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2017)

Could it be simply that the club pros are complaining that they're not getting business and they can't sell stock..?
If they're holding back on payments to Titleist because they're not selling anything that could hurt Titleist's cash flow..
It's a scenario that could spread to other manufacturers.....

With the amount of clubs being bought and sold on, loads on here let's face it, the 2nd hand market is being flooded with new product at cheaper prices. Even less trade for the club Pro


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## turkish (Jan 9, 2017)

Maybe titleist have the foresight to see that retail competition is good for their business. ... the longer AG continue with this promotion the more likely smaller businesses such as golf pros etc will go bust. 

Then they'd have a smaller number of outlets to provide with gear and AG get a larger control of the market and also able to dictate prices and terms the more powerful they become.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 9, 2017)

turkish said:



			Maybe titleist have the foresight to see that retail competition is good for their business. ... the longer AG continue with this promotion the more likely smaller businesses such as golf pros etc will go bust. 

Then they'd have a smaller number of outlets to provide with gear and AG get a larger control of the market and also able to dictate prices and terms the more powerful they become.
		
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Think you hit the nail on the head. The pros living is pretty precarious, they sometimes group together to buy or improve their buying power but this strategy could weaken them significantly.


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## IainP (Jan 9, 2017)

All speculation of course, but if so, be interesting to see who blinks first.

AG would lose some sales but probably some punters would try other options and some may go for an alternative.
But if other manufacturers join the dispute then different.


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## guest100718 (Jan 9, 2017)

Surely this thread should be locked? rumours and all that...


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's all coming down to the affect the promotion is having on golf Pros - they can't match the offers and struggling to sell their own stock and Pros are talking to their reps about it - it's been bubbling along underneath and Titliest I expect will be the first. 

It was always going to happen and the offers were always affecting someone - think the initial start of it
		
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That's competition for you though.

i am sure the EU will have some dictat to stop someone trying to stop market competition 

i thought that was illegal anyway?


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## Oddsocks (Jan 10, 2017)

To me titleist have simply looked at the big picture:

Golf pro: a loyal stockist  who buys in and promotes the gear.

AG: box shifters


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## Papas1982 (Jan 10, 2017)

Oddsocks said:



			To me titleist have simply looked at the big picture:

Golf pro: a loyal stockist  who buys in and promotes the gear.

AG: box shifters
		
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I doubt vary much they've done it on such moral grounds.

Most likely they've just realised that long term it will hurt them profits to lose a large revenue stream in pros. Not for clubs, but balls. I'd imagine the mark up on a pack of pro v 1 and the multiple sales at clubs probably accountd for more profit than the odd set of clubs a pro sells.


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## SAPCOR1 (Jan 10, 2017)

Oddsocks said:



			To me titleist have simply looked at the big picture:

Golf pro: a loyal stockist  who buys in and promotes the gear.

AG: box shifters
		
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Eh?  Anytime I have been in AG they are "loyally" stocking the full Titelist range (incl. Scotty & Vokey) and are prominently displayed.

Don't get this romantic view of the loyal club pro vs the big bad conglomerate


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2017)

SAPCOR1 said:



			Eh?  Anytime I have been in AG they are "loyally" stocking the full Titelist range (incl. Scotty & Vokey) and are prominently displayed.

Don't get this romantic view of the loyal club pro vs the big bad conglomerate
		
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Because up until recently you couldn't go into AG and get a significant amount of a purchase to be able to buy new clubs 

Right now people are flooding into AG to exchange old irons for new irons and only having to pay half price 

Golf club pros can't do that 

So right now given the choice where do you think most people will go to get new irons - AG or their Pro - AG , and because of that it's going to affect the Pro Shop and their margins which will in turn affect their purchasing from their Manufacturers and it seems that Titliest have noticed this and possibly are doing something about it to ensure they still get their business though the club pro 

I believe AG made a great offer to start but are now milking the proverbial- and someone is going to end up suffering the way it keeps going


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## SAPCOR1 (Jan 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because up until recently you couldn't go into AG and get a significant amount of a purchase to be able to buy new clubs 

Right now people are flooding into AG to exchange old irons for new irons and only having to pay half price 

Golf club pros can't do that 

So right now given the choice where do you think most people will go to get new irons - AG or their Pro - AG , and because of that it's going to affect the Pro Shop and their margins which will in turn affect their purchasing from their Manufacturers and it seems that Titliest have noticed this and possibly are doing something about it to ensure they still get their business though the club pro 

I believe AG made a great offer to start but are now milking the proverbial- and someone is going to end up suffering the way it keeps going
		
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If Titleist don't want to supply AG during this promotion then that is up to them, they will know what percentage of sales AG account for.  

A business is there to make money and the individual has the choice where to buy from


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2017)

SAPCOR1 said:



			If Titleist don't want to supply AG during this promotion then that is up to them, they will know what percentage of sales AG account for.  

A business is there to make money and the individual has the choice where to buy from
		
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The AG business is too make money - but Titlest aren't the first to not give AG stock - Srixon for example don't give them irons or Zstars I believe preffering to stick to pro shops etc

But for me the Golf Shop Pro and his shop is more important than an AG and I have a feeling Titliest see that as well and they won't be the only one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The AG business is too make money - but Titlest aren't the first to not give AG stock - Srixon for example don't give them irons or Zstars I believe preffering to stick to pro shops etc

But for me the Golf Shop Pro and his shop is more important than an AG and I have a feeling Titliest see that as well and they won't be the only one.
		
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AG spend millions raising the profile of Golf and have a presence in the public eye, how can the Pro and his shop be more important, the Pro has a loyalty to a few hundred, we need both, and imo the only Pro's they are causing an issue to are those who are expanded outside their own Club, plenty of Pro's don't even stock Titleist.


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## moogie (Jan 10, 2017)

Id place a small wager that it wouldn't just be over something as simple as this trade in deal
Got to be more to it than that........


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			AG spend millions raising the profile of Golf and have a presence in the public eye, how can the Pro and his shop be more important, the Pro has a loyalty to a few hundred, we need both, and imo the only Pro's they are causing an issue to are those who are expanded outside their own Club, plenty of Pro's don't even stock Titleist.
		
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I'd argue that the local Pro was more important to Golf than AG. Who is it that the kids go to see when they want to play golf? Who does the amateur come into most contact with? Who gives advice/lessons/favours etc?

Whilst I agree that there's a place in the market for both, I know who the game would miss most if they disappeared..


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## Beezerk (Jan 10, 2017)

moogie said:



			Id place a small wager that it wouldn't just be over something as simple as this trade in deal
Got to be more to it than that........
		
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Account on stop?
Does all add up with this crazy double trade in deal which doesn't really make much sense re profit. It's the first rule of business, lie, lie and lie some more about how successful your company is trading.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			AG spend millions raising the profile of Golf and have a presence in the public eye, how can the Pro and his shop be more important, the Pro has a loyalty to a few hundred, we need both, and imo the only Pro's they are causing an issue to are those who are expanded outside their own Club, plenty of Pro's don't even stock Titleist.
		
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How many junior afternoon sessions do AG host ?

How many schools do AG visit on a weekly basis to encourage kids to join 

How many AG employees do you see at your club to be able to offer advice or a friendly ear , how many are there to lend you that driver , or putter you have been eyeing up , how many at AG know you personally by name 

The golf club pro is who we as Amatuers come into contact more than anyone in AG 

The golf pro is a vital part of any decent golf club - without a golf pro the club and game would suffer greatly , without AG the game wouldn't imo

AG have their place in the game no doubt but for me the golf pro is far more important to the sport 

And I'd wager that Titliest are just the first to show concerns


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			I'd argue that the local Pro was more important to Golf than AG. Who is it that the kids go to see when they want to play golf? Who does the amateur come into most contact with? Who gives advice/lessons/favours etc?

Whilst I agree that there's a place in the market for both, I know who the game would miss most if they disappeared..
		
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But they fullfil different roles so in effect is daft to compare them, Purely from a Clubs point of view Pro's use that to supplement their income, how many pro's are known outside the club, I would suggest more people outside Golf probably approach AG first rather than a local club.
TV adverts, sponsoring events, if AG weren't there, the profile of golf would diminish further.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many junior afternoon sessions do AG host ?

How many schools do AG visit on a weekly basis to encourage kids to join 

How many AG employees do you see at your club to be able to offer advice or a friendly ear , how many are there to lend you that driver , or putter you have been eyeing up , how many at AG know you personally by name 

The golf club pro is who we as Amatuers come into contact more than anyone in AG 

The golf pro is a vital part of any decent golf club - without a golf pro the club and game would suffer greatly , without AG the game wouldn't imo

AG have their place in the game no doubt but for me the golf pro is far more important to the sport 

And I'd wager that Titliest are just the first to show concerns
		
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Again Phil, it's not one solution fits all, some AG stores are near courses, the AG in Sunderland does all the above with local communties, has a range next door and is always full of kids,
Obviously those who already play Golf he's important, but how many non-golfers even know these guys n girls exist.

Because of financial reasons how many pro's can survive on simply being just the pro, I'm not suggesting we don't need them, I'm saying you can't put them in competition to each other.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 10, 2017)

I just think the whole AG  deal just looks like a stunt pulled knowing the administrators are round the corner with no conern for the long term effect on anyone. To me it looks like financial suicide.


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## Beezerk (Jan 10, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I just think the whole AG  deal just looks like a stunt pulled knowing the administrators are round the corner with no conern for the long term effect on anyone. To me it looks like financial suicide.
		
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Yup, a few suggested that on here at the start of the other thread. The missus who is a lawyer that deals with insolvency etc said something similar when I mentioned it to her.
Hope she's 100% wrong though.


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## Marshy77 (Jan 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many junior afternoon sessions do AG host ?

How many schools do AG visit on a weekly basis to encourage kids to join 

How many AG employees do you see at your club to be able to offer advice or a friendly ear , how many are there to lend you that driver , or putter you have been eyeing up , how many at AG know you personally by name 

The golf club pro is who we as Amatuers come into contact more than anyone in AG 

The golf pro is a vital part of any decent golf club - without a golf pro the club and game would suffer greatly , without AG the game wouldn't imo

AG have their place in the game no doubt but for me the golf pro is far more important to the sport 

And I'd wager that Titliest are just the first to show concerns
		
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The only golfer's that benefit from club pro's advice are the members of the club,  from my non club associated mates point of view they've never come into contact with a club pro but use AG regulary. I do agree that without AG the game would continue but non members would just find another online or large store to visit rather than a club pro. 

I think we/forum member's sometimes are slightly short sighted in that non members never have that relationship with a clup pro, they don't all have the latest gear, they don't swap and change gear all the time they just play when and where ever. Having only been a member of a club for under a year I now see it from both sides but have more non member golfer mates than members of clubs


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## drewster (Jan 10, 2017)

Isn't there a titleist/footjoy rep who comments sporadically on here ?? It'd be interesting to hear his side of things !!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I just think the whole AG  deal just looks like a stunt pulled knowing the administrators are round the corner with no conern for the long term effect on anyone. To me it looks like financial suicide.
		
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Personally I think you're spot on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Marshy77 said:



			The only golfer's that benefit from club pro's advice are the members of the club,  from my non club associated mates point of view they've never come into contact with a club pro but use AG regulary. I do agree that without AG the game would continue but non members would just find another online or large store to visit rather than a club pro. 

I think we/forum member's sometimes are slightly short sighted in that non members never have that relationship with a clup pro, they don't all have the latest gear, they don't swap and change gear all the time they just play when and where ever. Having only been a member of a club for under a year I now see it from both sides but have more non member golfer mates than members of clubs
		
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This.

Some people on here clearly have great relationships with their pro's and have very active pro's. Plenty of others don't. The default for everyone I know is AG rather than their club pro.


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## moogie (Jan 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Personally I think you're spot on.
		
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Cue me,  quickly rushing to empty the rest of my garage whilst the deal is  still on


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## moogie (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This.

Some people on here clearly have great relationships with their pro's and have very active pro's. Plenty of others don't. The default for everyone I know is AG rather than their club pro.
		
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I totally agree
My last pro at previous club,  not the most helpful
In the bar every time Newcastle on tv,  with shop shut
Goods at RRP or higher at times

I'd miss American golf,  or the like,  before I'd miss a pro like that

Disclaimer -- not all pros are like the above
But by the same token,  not all are as described by others,  as being as helpful


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## pool888 (Jan 10, 2017)

I think a fair few people are buying things they would not have purchased otherwise, from AG or from elsewhere. Take advantage of getting rid of some old clubs lying around and price match the best online price and you've likely got a cheap new club you would not of bothered buying otherwise. I would normally have looked out for a used club at a decent price but was as well buying a new one with the trade in offer. I'm surprised they haven't started their eBay shop selling the second hand stock yet, I don't know if they're waiting till later in the year with better weather to get better prices but they must be racking up a huge amount of used stock by now.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 10, 2017)

The pro at my club does an awful lot with junior coaching programs to get youngsters into the game. He stocks junior clubs and sells quite a bit of kit to them (well, the parents really). Every Saturday there are groups of youngsters on the putting green and the chipping green, many will become members as they grow into the game.

I'm very fortunate, we have a well stocked shop and a pro that does an awful lot to look after us. He will price match and always keen to 'do a deal'. I will always go to him before AG.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The pro at my club does an awful lot with junior coaching programs to get youngsters into the game. He stocks junior clubs and sells quite a bit of kit to them (well, the parents really). Every Saturday there are groups of youngsters on the putting green and the chipping green, many will become members as they grow into the game.

I'm very fortunate, we have a well stocked shop and a pro that does an awful lot to look after us. He will price match and always keen to 'do a deal'. I will always go to him before AG.
		
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No more than you would expect from a Pro at a top Club, unfortunately, some of the Pro's are not in that position and is a struggle to survive, everybody wants everything cheaper and there is very little mark up for a Pro to begin with. Like every walk of life you get good, bad and average.


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## GreggerKBR (Jan 10, 2017)

It's an interesting situation.  Heaps of infrequent golfers (non-members) not changing their equipment because it's not worth it.
But if you manufacture kit, you want these people joining the market, you need them.  Regardless of the avenue of purchase.

You can easily picture it, premium brands trying to protect their premium prices, bring out new kit and pay staff a decent wage for being part of the big brand.
They overpay the elite golfers to create the image that makes the masses want to play their equipment.

Add in constant drivel about "growing the game" and "loss of participation".
Add in Nike leaving the market because there's not sufficient margin and then the struggling retailers (pro's or conglomerates)

Then you have the Rep from the big brand trying to negotiate with the buyer from the big chain of shops and the smaller outlets.
The Rep wants a commitment from the buyer to take a large amount of stock, he's got commission to earn, and the big brand must have growth.
But the market isn't buying enough new equipment. So the big chain reacts.  
And now the guys at the premium brand get nervy as their figures are wrong, the stuff will only shift at the right price...

Meanwhile, Mr average golfer sees that he can buy new kit at massive discounts.
Fundamentally there are two ways to influence buying behaviour so far as I understand it
(a)  Manipulate it (discounts, priced to move, last stock, fear, pressure)
(b)  Inspire it - it'll make you better, longer and look Rory plays it, it's just awesome isn't it.

...the big problem is this
once the market knows you will discount, they won't buy it (en masse this is) unless you discount it.
But if you keep pouring new, better, better than that, even better, much more betterer kit... the yesterdays kit will devalue.

Why are Titleist and AG having issues... have you looked around the internet at say Drivers or Putters just surveying the prices?
You'll notice that Titleist, Scotty, FJ all do not have a headline price against them on front screen?
You'll notice you have to click on the item to get the price?
You might feel like "why do I have to do that?  I want to know if it's cheaper or same price as Taylormade or Callaway" etc.
Titleist are dictating strategy to retailers.
Retailers are reacting to market place.
We are the market place and we don't want to pay premium if we can get it cheap(er).

By the way, where are all these second hand clubs?  
Can't see an influx of used kit anywhere - where is it all?


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## MadAdey (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't think it has anything to do with protecting the club pro, they are a business that wants to make money.

I think the big problem is regarding steady cash flow. Everyone is rushing out to buy a set of 916 irons and a 917 driver. So great, the first quarter of the year looks fantastic, but no one is going to be buying for the rest of the year. In a years time everyone has already had an upgrade so not going to buy then either. It's difficult to run a business when your income is in peaks and troughs, far easier to manage and predict a steady income stream. 

You might also find that the buyers from AG are trying to put pressure on the manufacturers to absorb some of the cost, to keep their profit margins looking good and Titleist have told them where they can stick it. With Titleist probably being the biggest seller across most of the golfing market, they probably feel that AG are trying to bully them and they are not going to take it. It would be interesting to know how much AG make from Titleist products. Scotty putters, Vokey wedges, Footjoy shoes and gloves, premium balls, they pretty much have the premium golf equipment market covered and it could hurt AG big time if they lost access to these products.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			By the way, where are all these second hand clubs?  
Can't see an influx of used kit anywhere - where is it all?
		
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Absolutely filling the shop floor in AG's stores.

Not a big problem as the stores I have recently visited seem to hold very little in the way of new kit. Perhaps it is not only Titleist from whom they are struggling to obtain stock, who knows?


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## Coffey (Jan 10, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			Absolutely filling the shop floor in AG's stores.

Not a big problem as the stores I have recently visited seem to hold very little in the way of new kit. Perhaps it is not only Titleist from whom they are struggling to obtain stock, who knows?
		
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There isn't much second hand stuff in my two local stores. I'd say there is more than normal, but nowhere near the amount that was traded in. I believe it has been sent back to headoffice to be sorted and sold on ebay etc. 

I bought a second hand driver on sunday and the guy said it was the same price as what they paid for it in the double trade in. So they made 0 profit off the second hand gear and only profited off the new gear they sold. Take into consideration that if they send all the stuff back to head office, sort it all and then put in the effort to sell, the profit from the new kit is pretty quickly eaten up by all of this.

In terms of new stock in store, I was thinking this as well. Hardly anything in there. I also thought this may be due to the arrival of the Epic and M1/M2 which will be taking center stage very soon and they currently only have demos in.

As well as the second hand stuff, my stores have loads of ex demo clubs which takes up a large proportion of the store.


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## BristolMike (Jan 10, 2017)

I know the manager in my local store pretty well and he said it was all being sent off to head office to deal with. I think the stores are slightly bare just due to the time of year, the new models are all due out shortly so it's all being geared towards new releases. I think if you go back mid Feb things will all go back to normal


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## chasf (Jan 10, 2017)

it just looks like price fixing to me, titleist is just trying to keep their prices high. Titleist don`t like shops discounting their products, buy doing the double trade in the customer can get a better deal on titleist clubs. This offer is great for the customer and hopefully it continues untill the new taylormade and callaway stuff is out so i can get some new kit.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 10, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			hope this is not true I have just order some Ping wedges.g
		
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Picked up my Ping wedges yesterday, no issues.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			I know the manager in my local store pretty well and he said it was all being sent off to head office to deal with. I think the stores are slightly bare just due to the time of year, the new models are all due out shortly so it's all being geared towards new releases. I think if you go back mid Feb things will all go back to normal
		
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Basic rule in retailing is to not have empty shelves or displays.

If they don't retain the secondhand tat in local stores then they will end up having bare looking stores and that will discourage many potential customers.


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## shivas irons (Jan 10, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I just think the whole AG  deal just looks like a stunt pulled knowing the administrators are round the corner with no conern for the long term effect on anyone. To me it looks like financial suicide.
		
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This......


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

I was in my local AG store around a week ago, Gosforth. They had very full displays of various shiny temptations. The bargain bag had the usual mixture and there were a few more sets of used, over priced iron sets which were well below their usual standard. Other than that, everything was normal.

I can understand, just, running this promotion for a month but to keep it going for so long when there is little financial sense in it strikes me, along with plenty of others on here obviously, as odd.


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## Simbo (Jan 10, 2017)

Couldn't it just be American golf trying to get a bigger share of the market? 
If they keep the double trade in running, everyone buys from them, no-one is buying from the club pro/smaller outlet. This puts the smaller business's in a very dangerous position. 
But the 2 results American golf could be looking for are
1. The small business/pro shop lose that much income they have no option but to close or 
2. When the smaller shop isn't doing enough business American golf move in with a peanuts offer to buy over their struggling business, let them run the shop and pay them a wage.

Both outcomes are that at the end of the day people buying golf equipment are buying it from American golf.

Basically bullying the wee guy, but a fairly common business practice.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

Simbo said:



			Couldn't it just be American golf trying to get a bigger share of the market? 
If they keep the double trade in running, everyone buys from them, no-one is buying from the club pro/smaller outlet. This puts the smaller business's in a very dangerous position. 
But the 2 results American golf could be looking for are
1. The small business/pro shop lose that much income they have no option but to close or 
2. When the smaller shop isn't doing enough business American golf move in with a peanuts offer to buy over their struggling business, let them run the shop and pay them a wage.

Both outcomes are that at the end of the day people buying golf equipment are buying it from American golf.

Basically bullying the wee guy, but a fairly common business practice.
		
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So what about the pro's at members' clubs?

Don't see AG being welcomed in there and, in any event, attempts to "buy" market share have, in all fields, generally ended in expensive failure.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 10, 2017)

To me it's simply a case of winning a bigger market share while capitalising on increase foot fall for impulse purchases, by offering this deal they have won people away from the club pros who simply do not touch used gear anymore.

Surely if people are suspecting possible financial issues down the line, their trading accounts for the last year will be available if you look in the right places


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

Oddsocks said:



			To me it's simply a case of winning a bigger market share while capitalising on increase foot fall for impulse purchases, by offering this deal they have won people away from the club pros who simply do not touch used gear anymore.

Surely if people are suspecting possible financial issues down the line, their trading accounts for the last year will be available if you look in the right places
		
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The last accounts I saw (admittedly a couple of years old) showed sales up but profits down.

The venture capital group that now own them changed both the CEO & CFO.

Because to us, as golfers, they appear pre-eminent in their field we, perhaps, should not assume all is well in the AG garden.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Accounts from 1yr ago can be very different to recent trading. Past accounts give a guide but no more. Not saying there are things wrong, unfounded rumour etc.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Accounts from 1yr ago can be very different to recent trading. Past accounts give a guide but no more. Not saying there are things wrong, unfounded rumour etc.
		
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Thanks for that, I would never have known!

I have not suggested that there is anything wrong but I am suggesting that some on here are a little naive in assuming that because AG are the largest golf retailers they are automatically successful.


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## Hobbit (Jan 10, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Account on stop?
Does all add up with this crazy double trade in deal which doesn't really make much sense re profit. It's the first rule of business, lie, lie and lie some more about how successful your company is trading.
		
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My first thought on the AG deal was it's a company that is struggling and needed a cash flow. Pure guess work. And then Titliest won't sell them stock. Does that mean they've not paid their bill?

Titliest not happy about the AG double value deal? Why would the be that bothered about AG selling even more Titliest stock at whatever price when they'd be more interested in the buy in price?

Maybe Titliest are protecting club pros by not shifting stock via AG. Bit bizarre not wanting a retailer to sell lots of stock...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Plenty of people look at a good set of accounts sent to Companies House 12-18 months previously and believe that means the company are sound. I made the comment because not everyone on here will be aware of how flimsy old accounts can be in relation to current trading. 

I agree with your last sentence.


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## Imurg (Jan 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			My first thought on the AG deal was it's a company that is struggling and needed a cash flow. ..
		
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Same here, but a significant number of people are going in and effectively swapping old gear for new with little or no cash changing hands - the other day I walked into AG Watford with 2 sets of irons and walked out with 470 quids worth of gear. And it didn't cost me a penny....And they threw in a Wilson glove
In reality, the Apex's are worth less than 150 and the Cobra's about 75 - but they have to sell them first......
I wouldn't buy either.....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Plenty of people look at a good set of accounts sent to Companies House 12-18 months previously and believe that means the company are sound. I made the comment because not everyone on here will be aware of how flimsy old accounts can be in relation to current trading. 

I agree with your last sentence.
		
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Apologies. I was perhaps a trifle over-sensitive.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			Apologies. I was perhaps a trifle over-sensitive.
		
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:cheers:. No problem.


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## Simbo (Jan 21, 2017)

Phone call to American golf this morning and apparently the issue with titleist has been resolved this morning and I should get my wedges in a week.


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## Craigg (Jan 21, 2017)

Would it be too left field to suggest that a good longterm plan for AG would be to scrap the huge swathes of second hand equipment, thus emptying the marketplace, forcing us all to purchase new gear, which they can then charge a premium for. Call it market cleansing if you will.
Just a thought.


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## El Diablo (Jan 21, 2017)

Interestingly looking at their last set of accounts the financial year end was January 24th 2016 (accounts published in June) so do we know if the current promotion is coming to an end soon ?

Companies can run disruptive campaigns for many reasons so it is difficult to know the driver for AG but time will tell on why and if it is successful.

The link for sad accountant types look at Companies House Beta and you can search for AGDC Holdings, American Golf etc as a corporate structure at various levels.


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## JakeWS (Jan 21, 2017)

Craigg said:



			Would it be too left field to suggest that a good longterm plan for AG would be to scrap the huge swathes of second hand equipment, thus emptying the marketplace, forcing us all to purchase new gear, which they can then charge a premium for. Call it market cleansing if you will.
Just a thought.
		
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They would most definitely just market it abroad and ship it over there before they did this, they could find somewhere where golf is an emerging market, and effectively corner two markets if this was their thinking.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 21, 2017)

There is nothing particularly new here. Several car companies try to control their second hand market so they can maximise the prices - BMW and Mercedes have done this for years.

If American Golf has the distribution capability the current weakness of the pound will make exporting the clubs very attractive in some of the emerging markets. If they have a distribution network elsewhere the offer is sensible as it provides them with product and I guess they are selling new stuff at list so the margins will be large.

Another good examples ofsomething like this is We Buy Any Car who are tasked with providing product for their core business, British Car Auctions.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 21, 2017)

Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a big influx in brand new scotties available cheap. People who have traded in old crap and turned this into something desirable by many.

When putters are Â£270-Â£300 new and you can trade your old crap in, that shiny new scotty at Â£180-220 in the wrapper with a receipt will fly on eBay/forums etc and all the old crap has gone, heck you may even turn a profit.


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