# So does frost damage greens?



## Captain_Black (Jan 13, 2012)

A bit confused?
Some clubs in  my area advertise "no temporary greens"
But, my club use temps as soon as a frost appears (like last night & tonight)
So does a frost damage greens or not?
If it does, then why don't all clubs use temps?


----------



## aceofspades (Jan 13, 2012)

I attended a presentation made by the STRI at my golf club last year and it was clearly stated that players walking on frosty greens would cause damage and this would be noticeable during spring/summer.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Jan 13, 2012)

My old club, a public course and a very busy one has had a no temps guarantee for the last 6 or 7 years and during the summer they are perfect, probably some of the best in the area. So if you want to tell me playing on them while frozen damages them I wouldn't believe you


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jan 13, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			My old club, a public course and a very busy one has had a no temps guarantee for the last 6 or 7 years and during the summer they are perfect, probably some of the best in the area. So if you want to tell me playing on them while frozen damages them I wouldn't believe you
		
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I played our greens last winter when they were like ice (balls bouncing 20ft in the air when they hit them) and they were perfect during this lat summer.


----------



## BTatHome (Jan 13, 2012)

We don't use temps for a liht frost and have not experienced any issues because of it. However if we have had quite bad rain beforehand then frozen green is dangerous and so won't be used .... Generally that'll probably mean the course is closed though.


----------



## NWJocko (Jan 13, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			My old club, a public course and a very busy one has had a no temps guarantee for the last 6 or 7 years and during the summer they are perfect, probably some of the best in the area. So if you want to tell me playing on them while frozen damages them I wouldn't believe you
		
Click to expand...

I must agree.

I must also admit to knowing nada about greenkeeping but our greens are always on over winter and doesn't seem to have an adverse effect.  The greenkeeper there maintains that it makes no difference.

Biggest problem we had this year was when the irrigation system broke during the drought in Spring!


----------



## Imurg (Jan 13, 2012)

From my experience the only damage done to greens by using them when frozen/frosty is short-term - pitchmarks can be hard to repair (if you make one) and footprints hang around longer making putting even more of a lottery.


----------



## wull (Jan 13, 2012)

the frost damages the roots of the grass when we walk on them........

some course that play no temp greens at all will either be open or closed depending on the weather.

so gleneagles for example will be full course until there is say a hard frost and then it will close.

i personally like this way because playing on temp greens is nothing less than crap...


----------



## trevor (Jan 13, 2012)

i personally like this way because playing on temp greens is nothing less than crap... [/QUOTE]

Still better than not playing at all IMHO


----------



## Fyldewhite (Jan 13, 2012)

I believe St Annes Old Links which is an open qualifying course this year never use temps even when frosty. I'm not a greenkeeper and perhaps the types of grass may be important? Not sure, but it certainly does their greens no harm, they are easily the best in the area.


----------



## thecraw (Jan 13, 2012)

There seems to be varying reports on this from the so called experts as well. My course takes us off big greens when frosty but the club up the road subscribe to the theory that the greens should be in play all year round!

I couldn't care less and don't mind winters, winter golf is about exercise and fresh air.


----------



## Dodger (Jan 13, 2012)

Seems to differ everywhere,Dornoch Struie was open today yet the championship course was shut due to frost....hard to work out eh??

Goswick seems to never shut or have temps during frost.


----------



## patricks148 (Jan 13, 2012)

Dodger said:



			Seems to differ everywhere,Dornoch Struie was open today yet the championship course was shut due to frost....hard to work out eh??

Goswick seems to never shut or have temps during frost.
		
Click to expand...

if its frosty the championship course closes and the struie will be on winter greens. its just so the members can have a hack around. if they could they would just shut both.


----------



## Dodger (Jan 13, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			if its frosty the championship course closes and the struie will be on winter greens. its just so the members can have a hack around. if they could they would just shut both.
		
Click to expand...

Can't understand why one is open and the other isn't tho....even with winters on?

No consistency anywhere is seems.Plenty courses with the same type of land,greens etc at Dornoch stay fully open,plenty more shut fully...baffling.


----------



## patricks148 (Jan 13, 2012)

Dodger said:



			Can't understand why one is open and the other isn't tho....even with winters on?

No consistency anywhere is seems.Plenty courses with the same type of land,greens etc at Dornoch stay fully open,plenty more shut fully...baffling.
		
Click to expand...

the championship is either full greens or closed, i suppose they have the other course and if you must play its here. only time i've played the struie on temps is when everywhere esle was still under 2 foot of snow. you wouldn't bother unless you were gagging for a game, which we were as we had snow for two months.


----------



## richart (Jan 13, 2012)

Taken from Blackmoor website.

Temporary Greens

Blackmoor Golf Club course policy is that temporary greens will be used when there is a hard ground frost and until the ground has fully thawed. The greens will be reviewed throughout the day and brought back into play as soon as possible.

What happens to turf in frost conditions?

Frost on the grass leaf blades tells us that the water inside the leaves is frozen. Remember that 80+% of plant tissue is made up of water, the primary component of plant tissue. When this water is frozen, foot traffic on the turf causes the ice crystals in the cells to puncture the plantâ€™s cell walls thus killing plant tissue.

When they are frozen, the leaves of the turf get easily bruised by playersâ€™ feet. After thawing, the affected turf turns black or brown and becomes sparse. The turf can often remain thin for long periods if damage occurs early in the winter. The fine turf on greens becomes more susceptible to disease and the putting surface becomes very uneven.

More long-term damage can be caused when play takes place as the turf is thawing after a prolonged freeze. Under these conditions the top surface of the turf may be soft, but the underlying soil can still be frozen. Root damage occurs easily from a shearing action as playersâ€™ feet move the soft top surface against the frozen sub soil.


The process of damage to the turf normally occurs in the following pattern

* Bruising and damage to the leaf.
* Loss of turf colour.
* Severing of grass roots.
* Compaction of the soil.
* Thinning of the swards.

Course Policies

There is a split amongst courses whereby some will use temporary greens to avoid this potential damage whilst others allow play regardless of frost.

Those courses, which allow play to the main greens under these conditions consider the damage they receive to be manageable.

They take into consideration:

* Management of grass species in their greens
* The amount of play through the winter
* The extent to which cold and frosty conditions put the membership off playing, the reduced number of rounds on affected days causing less damage
* The restriction of visitors on certain days especially at the weekend to reduce traffic
* The size of their greens and the area for legal pin placements.

Blackmoorâ€™s decision to use a temporary greens policy has been taken as part of the management plan to promote Browntop Bent sward greens (instead of Poa Annua). Browntop Bent is the most desirable and best- suited grass to the conditions faced at Blackmoor golf club.

Using temporary greens in the winter means that efforts in the growing season (overseeding) have a much higher success rate therefore speeding up the grass species change-over and reaching the goal sooner. As you can see above from the effects of playing on greens when they are frozen it is the complete opposite of our plan to encourage new growth. So until we have reached the overwhelming dominance of the better grasses we must continue to use this policy.

Browntop Bent characteristics:

Good all year round colour

Broad flat leaf blade (good green speed)

Low fertility requirements (cost)

Resistant to most diseases

Lower disruptive maintenance requirements and costs

Drought tolerant


Poa Annua Characteristics

Bad colour out of growing season

Soft lush leaf blade

Shallow rooting

Prone to diseases

High maintenance requirements

High maintenance costs

Not drought tolerant


Hope it is of interest.


----------



## thecraw (Jan 13, 2012)

The course in my village keep the greens on all year round and come the summer they also have the fastest greens in the county. Makes me wonder about the validity of the winter green theorists!


----------



## stevek1969 (Jan 13, 2012)

We play full greens all year round doesn't matter if there frozen. The theroy is that is doesn't cause any damage but when they start to thaw you can get root damage if they thaw about a 1/2  inch and the top is soft and they have people walking on them.


----------



## thecraw (Jan 13, 2012)

Great read Richart.


----------



## Mungoscorner (Jan 13, 2012)

Absolute pish is my take on it.The better course's in my area play proper greens all year regardless of conditions in winter,and they are the best greens to play on in summer,any damage caused by frost is temporary.The greens still need cutting regularly even in mid winter,which shows how resilient the grass is.


----------



## NWJocko (Jan 13, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Absolute pish is my take on it..
		
Click to expand...

I hate it when folk sit on the fence


----------



## Mungoscorner (Jan 13, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			I hate it when folk sit on the fence 

Click to expand...

Cannae stand splinters up my arse pmsl.


----------



## Billysboots (Jan 13, 2012)

aceofspades said:



			I attended a presentation made by the STRI at my golf club last year and it was clearly stated that players walking on frosty greens would cause damage and this would be noticeable during spring/summer.
		
Click to expand...

My understanding has always been that it depends entirely on the construction of the greens. There is no "one size fits all".

We have not used temps for the last three or four years. It was decided that the cost of maintaining them outweighed the cost of repairing damage to regular greens.

Our greens were ropey during spring last year, but that was down to the lack of rainfall and nothing to do with them being used during the cold snap last year, and we saw no lasting damage into the summer.


----------



## Lump (Jan 13, 2012)

We run full greens all year round. Our greens we just as good this summer as any other year. Only thing I hate with icey greens is instead of a pitch marks you tend to get holes blown in the grass.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jan 13, 2012)

Our club has been trialling staying on the greens in the frost. Given the amount of moss on them anyway it is unlikely to make a huge difference anyway. We always use to play on full greens on the old RA course inside the racecourse and they were great greens to putt on all year. 

I've got my 2nd round Winter fourball match with Hawkeye tomorrow so personally I hope we're on the full course otherwise it does become a bit of a lottery. I have played a lot of courses where they aren't going off onto temps in recent years. Its like a lot of things and depends who you talk to. Some greenkeepers will whip them onto temps at the first sign of a frost and others will stay on there all winter.


----------



## Evesdad (Jan 13, 2012)

Well we had our temp greens all marked out etc and then a few weeks back were told that these were now scrapped and that the green will used all winter so I'll let you know in the summer how they get on!


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jan 13, 2012)

Played this morning with Imurg & CVG at Aylesbury Park

Lovely frosty start to the day, but one consequence is that you get a build up of compacted ice around the cleats and it quickly builds up into 3/4 inch lumps that make a series of nasty indentations in the greens, when you walk there.

Im sure that these indentations will spring back in time, but I would expect them to be there for a couple of days at least, resulting in bobbly greens.

Its also harder to hit the ball properly if you are suddenly taller than normal

Fragger


----------



## daymond (Jan 13, 2012)

I may be corrected but I understand the one thing you should not do is to repair pitch marks on a green which may be slightly defrosted on the top but frozen below. 
Our greens are on all year. No temps.


----------



## rickg (Jan 13, 2012)

thecraw said:



			The course in my village keep the greens on all year round and come the summer they also have the fastest greens in the county. Makes me wonder about the validity of the winter green theorists!
		
Click to expand...

same at ours Craw...we dont have any temporary greens and the course is open all winter. This year we hosted the jamega tour, had the greens stimping at 12.1 and in the post competition write up, the greens were described as European Tour standard.
Playing at 07:56 tomorrow......got the thermals at the ready..:thup:


----------



## Bikky73 (Jan 13, 2012)

As a bit of a wildlife/nature freak (only a bit). It depends....

Further north, more damage.  The frost will cause some damage but grass is a weed and hardy.  However the further north, the less light in winter time to recover from damage.  The west coast has it best as its more temperate due to the north atlantic current supplying relativley warmer air than the north east with its siberian front

It also depends on drainage. Good drainage means less water to freeze and cause damage, but it does mean more regular irrigation.


Play cheap courses, they don't mind as much LOL


----------



## AmandaJR (Jan 14, 2012)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Played this morning with Imurg & CVG at Aylesbury Park

Lovely frosty start to the day, but one consequence is that you get a build up of compacted ice around the cleats and it quickly builds up into 3/4 inch lumps that make a series of nasty indentations in the greens, when you walk there.

Im sure that these indentations will spring back in time, but I would expect them to be there for a couple of days at least, resulting in bobbly greens.

Its also harder to hit the ball properly if you are suddenly taller than normal

Fragger
		
Click to expand...

Same problem at our place and I try to knock off the ice before stepping on the green as I feel I'm really causing damage and I'm a lightweight ! Never mind then stepping onto a frosty winter mat and trying to stand upright !


----------



## MegaSteve (Jan 14, 2012)

Its a tradition thing... Harking back to the days when clubs had geens committees...

Grass is way more hardier than many think...

Played all through winter at my local P'nP last year and come spring/summer the greens were as good as you should expect...


----------



## Bandido (Jan 14, 2012)

I dont know if it damages the green or not, I dont care tbh but if the greenkeeper deems it appropriate to put the temps on so be it, its what he's paid for.

I personally don't see the problem playing temp greens when the frost is hard. It generally means a shorter course and quicker to get back in the warmth. When it's bitter cold, get out keep the swing groved and have a bit of banter. I suppose it's like playing another course too making you think which glue to hit into the 'green' as its a shorter distance.


----------



## rosecott (Jan 14, 2012)

Bandido said:



			I suppose it's like playing another course too making you think which glue to hit into the 'green' as its a shorter distance.
		
Click to expand...

I've always wondered what a sticky post was.


----------



## Bandido (Jan 14, 2012)

Ha ha ha... Damned iPad! Glue, read club :-D


----------



## USER1999 (Jan 14, 2012)

From my experience, it is utter tosh. Greens should be on. Temps should be banned. Grass is a weed. It will recover fine. I have played at courses with temps, and without. Come the spring, there is no difference. Temps are or lazy greenskeepers and weak committees.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2012)

We were due to play the 2nd round of our winter knockout. The club had been trialling playing on the full greens but they were so frozen this morning that we were back on temps. We agreed with the opposition that playing a match on temps was a lottery so we postponed the game until next weekend but knocked it round anyway. I have to be honest and say they greenkeeper got it spot on today. Not from a protecting the green perspective but from a playability one. There was no way of keeping even a well struck shot on the putting surfaces. Even trying to hit into the shorter par 3's would have been tough as there isn't anywhere short to land it. 

Sometimes you have to take a pragmatic approach. I still think that using the full greens with frost won't damage them but if they aren't playable in the first place then there seems little point using them. They get a fair amount of traffic and like anything, a rest must do it some good. I hope it isn't as cold tonight and the frost may have come out enough during the day to get them back on for tomorrow


----------



## rickg (Jan 14, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We were due to play the 2nd round of our winter knockout. The club had been trialling playing on the full greens but they were so frozen this morning that we were back on temps. We agreed with the opposition that playing a match on temps was a lottery so we postponed the game until next weekend but knocked it round anyway. I have to be honest and say they greenkeeper got it spot on today. Not from a protecting the green perspective but from a playability one. There was no way of keeping even a well struck shot on the putting surfaces. Even trying to hit into the shorter par 3's would have been tough as there isn't anywhere short to land it. 

Sometimes you have to take a pragmatic approach. I still think that using the full greens with frost won't damage them but if they aren't playable in the first place then there seems little point using them. They get a fair amount of traffic and like anything, a rest must do it some good. I hope it isn't as cold tonight and the frost may have come out enough during the day to get them back on for tomorrow
		
Click to expand...

We played our semi final foursomes knockout today on frozen greens....we got well and truly humped! Me and my partner didn't adapt to the conditions whereas they did...they shot 4 over gross, which for a 11 &  12 handicapper, would have been a phenomenal score in  the easiest of conditions...for them to do it today just defied belief......


----------



## bentowny (Jan 14, 2012)

i have to say, my course has never used temps unless work is being done on or around the greens, and they are fast and true in the summer so i dont see the problem


----------

