# Why is hitting a draw good?



## leaney (Dec 9, 2011)

Evening all,

I've been playing for around 7 months, so I'm still new to the game.....but can somebody please tell me why people think that hitting a draw is good? What are the advantages?

My pro keeps saying that I hit a nice draw...but I haven't even though to ask why that's good.

Isn't it better to hit it straight?

Thanks gents


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## pbrown7582 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

its generally because a draw runs out further giving you more distance


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Hitting it accurately is better. I don't know why the draw gets so much attention but there are plenty of tour pro's that hit a fade so I wouldn't get too hung up about it


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## birdieman (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

All good golfers know to play either a fade or draw to take one side of the course out of play, you increase your percentages of hitting the target that way.
Other than that a draw will go roughly a club longer than a fade, useful with a driver for extra yards. A draw comes from an in to out swing path which is more pure and physically economic than a fade action.
A draw is a thing of beauty that not so many players can do. Every man and his dog can hit a fade.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

draws longer if controled, but bounces violently when ground the ground is hard, and its harder to stop on greens, i spent years trying to get rid of my fade becuase i wanted a longer draw, once i got it, i couldnt control it and would randomly turn into snaphooks, for that reason, its gone and ive spent 2.5 years getting rid of it.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

A draw for most of us, is a big hook that we didn't quite get right!!


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## timchump (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

a draw leads to good swing fundamentals, in to out swing path, extension in the follow through, hand release etc

fading the opposite, swinging across your body, chicken wings, holding the club face open all undesirable 


i think this is why teaching pros encourage us amatuers to hit a draw


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

In essence a draw is longer so most pros try and teach it to maximise distance for club golfers. Personally I'd be looking for accuracy at this stage and trying to hit fairways and greens. If I could I'd swap my right to left for a reliable fade everytime but I really struggle with my swing to hit a left to righter unless its a huge great slice


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## USER1999 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

The ball doesn't know what spin is put on it. A draw will go the same distance as a fade, if hit properly. most of the time a draw swing is a better swing than most people's fade. If you can hit a proper fade, it makes no odds. Bubba hits a fade, he is not exactly short.
Most golfers dream of hitting a draw. Most low h/cap golfers spend ages trying to hit a fade.
Golf is golf, the key is hitting it to where you want it.


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## Mr_T (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Am I the only one who doesn't like looking at a draw? Sure it looks great when Rory does it but on the odd occasion when I've actually hit a good shot that would be classed as a "perfect draw" I've felt that im not in control, then again I hate my fade which invariably turns into a slice so maybe I'm just being fussy


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## USER1999 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I spent 20 years hitting a fade. Now I hit a draw. I would rather hit a draw. Just personal preference really.


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## Captainron (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

because it looks cool off the bat.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



murphthemog said:



			The ball doesn't know what spin is put on it. A draw will go the same distance as a fade, if hit properly. most of the time a draw swing is a better swing than most people's fade. If you can hit a proper fade, it makes no odds. Bubba hits a fade, he is not exactly short.
Most golfers dream of hitting a draw. Most low h/cap golfers spend ages trying to hit a fade.
Golf is golf, the key is hitting it to where you want it.
		
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Donâ€™t agree that the ball will go the same distance if hit properly fade or draw. Just watch tennis players when the hit top spin draw shots, the balls flight is much faster and the ball comes off the ground much faster. When the ball is hit with cut the spin is the opposite way and the ball floats over the net. Snooker is the best example, hit it with top spin, with the same pressure, and the ball will go much further than striking the ball with side or bottom. It all depends on the spin on the ball, it will throw it further or slow it down faster....its the law of gouf.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



murphthemog said:



			The ball doesn't know what spin is put on it. A draw will go the same distance as a fade, if hit properly. most of the time a draw swing is a better swing than most people's fade. If you can hit a proper fade, it makes no odds. Bubba hits a fade, he is not exactly short.
Most golfers dream of hitting a draw. Most low h/cap golfers spend ages trying to hit a fade.
Golf is golf, the key is hitting it to where you want it.
		
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Tommo21 said:



			Donâ€™t agree that the ball will go the same distance if hit properly fade or draw. Just watch tennis players when the hit top spin draw shots, the balls flight is much faster and the ball comes off the ground much faster. When the ball is hit with cut the spin is the opposite way and the ball floats over the net. Snooker is the best example, hit it with top spin, with the same pressure, and the ball will go much further than striking the ball with side or bottom. It all depends on the spin on the ball, it will throw it further or slow it down faster....its the law of gouf.
		
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Have to agree with Tommo on this one


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## Mattyboy (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

The pros feel a draw or fade brings better results than hoping to hit a straight shot. I was down the range today, aiming for a 5 yard draw off of the 150 marker. Must have hit the marker 6 times. Looked good (but I didnt tell anyone I wasnt aiming at it!).......


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## bozza (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I've never been able to hit a draw and I ain't too fussed. A draw can turn into a nasty hook that I personally think is worse than a slice.


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## DaveM (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

A draw goes further than a fade. Most pro prefer a fade as they play more for position. So with a fade not running as far, it is more predicable. Less chance for a bad bounce. Amatures try for a draw as generally we a shorter of the tee. So the more run the better.


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## Iaing (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

"Beware the opponent who draws his woods and fades his irons."
Haven't a clue who said it


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## richart (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

To go further a golf ball doesn't want topspin, as while this will make it run further, it will lose too much carry. A golf ball needs an element of backspin to make it carry as far as possible, and still have some run. Tennis players hit with top spin so that they can hit as hard as possible, and to be able to make the ball drop quickly into court. When Federer hits a topspin forehand off the frame, it flys miles as there is no spin to bring it down.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

A golf ball never has top spin.  If it does it will duck straight into the ground.

The difference between a fade and a draw is the power of the shot created by the smash factor.  To create a fade the clubface will be open, this creates additional loft that will send the ball higher, lose distance and the ball will land softer.  A draw will reduce loft, create a lower more penetrating flight that runs out more giving extra distance.

Now it is possible to hit a 'power fade', which is more like a draw but creating the opposite side spin.  This is the way Bubba, Fred, Lee and Jack hit the ball.  A skillful fader will hit slightly out to in but will use a low lofted club and not allow the clubface to keep opening through impact.    The average slicer allows the clubface to keep opening. A drawer of the ball will hit slightly in to out with the clubface aiming just a tad to the right.   

To test the effect of a fade or draw, stand in an address position with no club and both arms hanging down with your palms together.   Take the right hand only back as if making a swing then bring it down and clap it into your left hand.  First do it so the right hand returns square (Straight), then with the right hand opening and staying open (fade), finally with the right hand opening on the back swing then closing as it claps the left (Draw).   Which feels the stronger?


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			A golf ball never has top spin. If it does it will duck straight into the ground.

The difference between a fade and a draw is the power of the shot created by the smash factor. To create a fade the clubface will be open, this creates additional loft that will send the ball higher, lose distance and the ball will land softer. A draw will reduce loft, create a lower more penetrating flight that runs out more giving extra distance.

Now it is possible to hit a 'power fade', which is more like a draw but creating the opposite side spin. This is the way Bubba, Fred, Lee and Jack hit the ball. A skillful fader will hit slightly out to in but will use a low lofted club and not allow the clubface to keep opening through impact. The average slicer allows the clubface to keep opening. A drawer of the ball will hit slightly in to out with the clubface aiming just a tad to the right.
		
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Good post Brian, in fact I'll have to re-quote this line just so everyone reads it and remembers it...



SocketRocket said:



*A golf ball never has top spin*.
		
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:fore:


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## Phil2511 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

My pro has taught me to hit a natural slight draw and the differences for me have been huge. I have easily gained 20 yards on iron shots and close to double on drives. 

I have noticed that not only is it extra distance but a more powerful penetrating ball flight even into the wind. 
1 hole today a 210 yd par 3 with an elevated green I really struggled to get to the fringe on a calm summers day with a slight fade but today I was 6 feet on the green into a 15mph wind and it was about 1 degree out there so the ball won't travel as far as when it's warm either. 

If you hook then there will likely be a small flaw in your swing that once made aware of you will know why. The same applies for a slice. 

But as my pro says its all about repetition. Without that you have nothing.


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## Smiffy (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Remember the old saying......   "you can talk to a slice, a hook won't listen"


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## Captainron (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			A golf ball never has top spin.  If it does it will duck straight into the ground.
		
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What about putting? Does the ball start off with backspin and then change to top spin after it is affected by friction? I can slice a putt with the best of them.


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## mc73 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I'd rather I could hot it straight as an arrow every time I teed it up than hit a draw or fade


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## Scouser (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			A golf ball never has top spin.  If it does it will duck straight into the ground.

T
		
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It does when I hit it 2 yrds of the tee


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## MadAdey (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

The lads on tour that hit it right to left still get distance because it is what is known as the power fade. The usual club golfer hit a big high ballooned fade caused by not getting his hands through the ball at impact so loosing power. The lads on tour hit power fades as they still get there hands through the ball generating power, but leave the club head slightly open at impact. 

The club golfer will normally always get the distance from the draw as it is caused by releasing your hands through impact generating higher club head speed, causing you to close the club face as you strike the ball. Either way who cares. Nice controlled fade, nice powerful draw. Does it really matter as long as you keep control of it. Go with what feels natural


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## RGDave (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I played with a draw for 2 seasons back in the last millennium.

I loved it!

A reliable draw off the big clubs is a great way to play, as long as you don't start pushing/hooking it too often.

As for irons, I personally like a small fade, but having both is tricky, so I guess straight wins...


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## RGDave (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			The lads on tour that hit it right to left still get distance because it is what is known as the power fade.
		
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 Is that right? right to left is a power fade?




			The club golfer will normally always get the distance from the draw as it is caused by releasing your hands through impact generating higher club head speed, causing you to close the club face as you strike the ball. Either way who cares. Nice controlled fade, nice powerful draw. Does it really matter as long as you keep control of it. Go with what feels natural
		
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 now I'm confused.....I thought most drawers of the ball actually hit from the inside with the face open a degree or two?


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## Scouser (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

RGDave I am confused also by the people who say they want to hit it straight or they hit it straight.... I have read and been told a number of times its harder to hit it straight than a hit a draw or a fade!?!


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## stevie_r (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



RGDave said:



			Is that right? right to left is a power fade?

 now I'm confused.....I thought most drawers of the ball actually hit from the inside with the face open a degree or two?
		
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Does that not result in just pushing it right?


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## papyt (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

i play with a power fade NO it is not a slice ,if i could only find a course set out like a spiral i would be scratch in no time.


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## daymond (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

If the club head speed and spin speed are equal would not the distance also be equal?


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## stevie_r (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



daymond said:



			If the club head speed and spin speed are equal would not the distance also be equal?
		
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Not necessarily IMHO, does a slightly open club face result in an increase in loft and a slightly closed one decrease it?


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



RGDave said:



			Is that right? right to left is a power fade?
		
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No, left to right is a power fade.



RGDave said:



			now I'm confused.....I thought most drawers of the ball actually hit from the inside with the face open a degree or two?
		
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They do.





stevie_r said:



			Does that not result in just pushing it right?
		
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No, the swingpath causes the ball to curve back to the left



			
				daymond said:
			
		


			If the club head speed and spin speed are equal would not the distance also be equal?
		
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Yes, but they are not equal.


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## mc73 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



stevie_r said:



			Not necessarily IMHO, does a slightly open club face result in an increase in loft and a slightly closed one decrease it?
		
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I'm sure it's the other way around! At least I'm positive I was told this.

Edit to add, it changes the effective loft when the club face is squared.


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## MadAdey (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



RGDave said:



			Is that right? right to left is a power fade?

 now I'm confused.....I thought most drawers of the ball actually hit from the inside with the face open a degree or two?
		
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Yes I am being a . I need to learn to read before posting... I meant left to right is a power fade.


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## stevie_r (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



mc73 said:



			I'm sure it's the other way around! At least I'm positive I was told this.

Edit to add, it changes the effective loft when the club face is squared.
		
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Go grab one of your irons, open the club face up, what happens to the loft? It increases


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## MadAdey (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Swing path this....swing path that.......when you start coming on the inside too much you start hitting a big ballooned left to right shot that increases the loft and causes it to go off to the right. Or you start snatching your hands through impact and hook it.

Hitting a draw.....If you hit it from swinging on the out to in then you are looking at having more of a pull than a draw, also a risk of leaving the face open hitting a massive slice. I do not swing from out to in I do not swing from in to out. Well not that much that it matters as no one really swings perfectly down the line. But hey I have a nice controlled powerful draw with the driver that is actually caused by my fast hand release through impact that closes the club face very slightly. I know this as I have been told by many Pros during lessons and even seen it on video footage of my swing.


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## mc73 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

That's a different thing all together, you cannot do the same thing with a driver. What you do with a driver is change the effective loft on adjustable drivers not the actual loft on the face.

I found a good post on a Titleist forum about this after I posted my initial thought

http://www.titleist.com/teamtitleist/team-titleist/f/6/t/5213.aspx


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## AmandaJR (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I've been taught that the key is to have a consistent shot shape whether it be draw or fade. For me having started with a slice and been a bit ott I have found a nice draw as my swing path has developed and I'm happy with that plus the extra distance I now get.

My coach explained it this way to me - imagine the fairway is 3 lanes of a motorway. IF your consistent shape is a draw then you aim down the fast lane knowing that your margin for error if you overcook it is 2 lanes wide. Likewise if you fade the ball then down the slow lane with a 2 lane margin of error. If you hit it down the middle then the margin of error is just the 1 lane either side...

Works for me and if I commit to the fast lane aim then I commit to the shot shape that requires a draw and hey presto it draws - mostly !


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## MadAdey (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



AmandaJR said:



			I've been taught that the key is to have a consistent shot shape whether it be draw or fade. For me having started with a slice and been a bit ott I have found a nice draw as my swing path has developed and I'm happy with that plus the extra distance I now get.

My coach explained it this way to me - imagine the fairway is 3 lanes of a motorway. IF your consistent shape is a draw then you aim down the fast lane knowing that your margin for error if you overcook it is 2 lanes wide. Likewise if you fade the ball then down the slow lane with a 2 lane margin of error. If you hit it down the middle then the margin of error is just the 1 lane either side...

Works for me and if I commit to the fast lane aim then I commit to the shot shape that requires a draw and hey presto it draws - mostly !
		
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That is so spot on. I was told that it does not matter what shape you hit the driver. What matters is most is that you can start it within the fairway like Amanda has said. If your shot shape means you have to start aiming into the tress to get your draw or fade to land on the fairway then you have problems.


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## Mark_G (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



papyt said:



			i play with a power fade NO it is not a slice ,if i could only find a course set out like a spiral i would be scratch in no time.
		
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I am with you on this, I want U shaped fairways, just think how good this would be, all you faders and drawers would have to go the long way round, me and papyt could take a shortcut


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

There is so much mumbo jumbo in golf.

The face angle determines the initial direction of the ball. The swing path determines the shape of flight. This is fact.

So without manipulating the face, if it approaches the ball with 9.5 degrees of loft, on an in to out path, it will fade. If it approaches with 9.5 degrees of loft on an in to out path it will draw.

Yes, if you open the face, to effectively change the face angle, you will add loft, and the ball will not go as far. This is not how to fade a ball though. A fade should come from swing path, not face manipulation.

If you close the face angle, yes, the ball flight will be lower, (it still might not go as far as a well hit fade, as the flight will not carry as far). But to hit a draw you don't need to close the face.

A ball hit with 9.5 degrees of loft, at 100 mph, and 2000 rpm back spin, 500 rpm side spin, will not go a different distance depending on whether it is spinning right to left, or left to right.

Most people hit a draw further than a fade because their fade is hit with an open face, and increased loft. It does not have to be this way.


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



murphthemog said:



			There is so much mumbo jumbo in golf.

The face angle determines the initial direction of the ball. The swing path determines the shape of flight. This is fact.

So without manipulating the face, if it approaches the ball with 9.5 degrees of loft, on an *out to in* path, it will fade. If it approaches with 9.5 degrees of loft on an in to out path it will draw.
		
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Fixed that for you.


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Bum.


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Anyway, to answer the original question......

With an iron shot and fairway woods the ball needs to be struck with a descending blow, this is most effective/consistent when delivered with a draw swing.

With a driver it is better to hit a fade as the ball is hit on the way up, in fact most tour drivers are fade biased (clubface sits a degree or two open)


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## MadAdey (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			Anyway, to answer the original question......

With an iron shot and fairway woods the ball needs to be struck with a descending blow, this is most effective/consistent when delivered with a draw swing.

With a driver it is better to hit a fade as the ball is hit on the way up, in fact most tour drivers are fade biased (clubface sits a degree or two open)
		
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I think you will find that tour spec drivers are opened face as they are designed for better ball hitters. ie someone who releases their hands through impact thus squaring the face at impact. It is not that they are designed to fade the ball. Most drivers are designed with a closed face as a lot of club golfers do not release the club head properly through impact so it makes sure they do not hit the ball with an open face I think you will find.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I just want to be able to find it again after I've hit it. Draw, fade or any variations on those I'll take as long as I have a next shot without reloading or standing ankle deep in rough


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## DaveM (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I have never heard so much rubbish as some of the posts on swing path.  The correct swing path can only go one way. That is from In to square to in again. The ball is several feet to the side of you. Your body turns in a circular movement. So therefore so does the club. Just try this hold the club straight out infront of you and turn your body. What path does the club head take? it goes in a circular path. But as the ball is on the ground the club still takes the same path but on a angle. It is not straight back in anyway.

If you take the club straight back. this is one way to get an out to in swing path. Resulting in a push, fade, or slice. Depending on the face angle at impact.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			I have never heard so much rubbish as some of the posts on swing path.  The correct swing path can only go one way. That is from In to square to in again. The ball is several feet to the side of you. Your body turns in a circular movement. So therefore so does the club. Just try this hold the club straight out infront of you and turn your body. What path does the club head take? it goes in a circular path. But as the ball is on the ground the club still takes the same path but on a angle. It is not straight back in anyway.

If you take the club straight back. this is one way to get an out to in swing path. Resulting in a push, fade, or slice. Depending on the face angle at impact.
		
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The issue is the difference between the direction the clubface points verses the direction the swingpath takes. 
If the clubface is not square to the swingpath at impact then you will cut across the ball creating sidespin.  The ball will take off in the direction the clubface points and curve to the right or left depending on whether the path is to the right or left of the ball.

Read up on 'D' Plane.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Captainron said:



			What about putting? Does the ball start off with backspin and then change to top spin after it is affected by friction? I can slice a putt with the best of them.
		
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We aint talking about putting, are we.


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## DaveM (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Thought you might reply Brian. I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it right. But read the posts on this tread? Some are just rubbish. i.e. In to out, with an open club face= a draw?????? That will give a pushed slice every day of the week. There are more like that


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## Phil2511 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Would anyone like to have Furyks swing?


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## DaveM (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Yes if it made me his kind of money.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Because whethers it nice to watch or not its repetetive which is what its all about.


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## Region3 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			Thought you might reply Brian. I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it right. But read the posts on this tread? Some are just rubbish. i.e. In to out, with an open club face= a draw?????? That will give a pushed slice every day of the week. There are more like that
		
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I can't remember who said that but I'm sure they would have meant club open relative to the target, not swingpath. As long as the swing path is more in-to-out than the clubface is open then it will draw.


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## stevie_r (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			Thought you might reply Brian. I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it right. But read the posts on this tread? Some are just rubbish. i.e. In to out, with an open club face= a draw?????? That will give a pushed slice every day of the week. There are more like that
		
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Hallelujah! stated that earlier.  I don't know a lot about swing theory (or anything else TBH) but common sense and basic physics aren't difficult


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



murphthemog said:



			There is so much mumbo jumbo in golf.

The face angle determines the initial direction of the ball. The swing path determines the shape of flight. This is fact.

So without manipulating the face, if it approaches the ball with 9.5 degrees of loft, on an in to out path, it will fade. If it approaches with 9.5 degrees of loft on an in to out path it will draw.

Yes, if you open the face, to effectively change the face angle, you will add loft, and the ball will not go as far. This is not how to fade a ball though. A fade should come from swing path, not face manipulation.

If you close the face angle, yes, the ball flight will be lower, (it still might not go as far as a well hit fade, as the flight will not carry as far). But to hit a draw you don't need to close the face.

A ball hit with 9.5 degrees of loft, at 100 mph, and 2000 rpm back spin, 500 rpm side spin, will not go a different distance depending on whether it is spinning right to left, or left to right.

Most people hit a draw further than a fade because their fade is hit with an open face, and increased loft. It does not have to be this way.
		
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It is not possible to create spin in two directions.  You can only tilt the axis of rotation.

You are correct that the overriding factor for initial ball flight is the clubface direction.  Any sidespin is created by the difference between the clubface direction vector at impact and the swingpath direction vector..

The ball understands nothing about the target, in-to-out, out-to-in, it only understands the way the clubface strikes it.

If anyone wants to understand the physics of ball direction then they should read up on the 'D' Plane or what has been refered to as the new ball flight laws.

For decades people have taught that you should aim the clubface in the direction you wish the ball to finish and swing the club along the direction you wish it to take off.   With the use of high speed cameras this has been proved to be wrong.


----------



## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I agree there is no such thing as back spin, side spin etc, here is just a tilted axis of rotation. I have argued this ad infinitum on here before.
But, if you get a launch monitor session, they break this down into side and back spin. Why? No idea, but it makes it easier to understand I guess.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I think you will find that tour spec drivers are opened face as they are designed for better ball hitters. ie someone who releases their hands through impact thus squaring the face at impact. It is not that they are designed to fade the ball. Most drivers are designed with a closed face as a lot of club golfers do not release the club head properly through impact so it makes sure they do not hit the ball with an open face I think you will find.
		
Click to expand...

Tour players hit a fade biased club (open clubface) so they can hit a raking draw with less chance of losing the ball to the left (hook). They have no problem swinging from the inside. If anything they are more likely to block it and be looking in the right rough.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			I have never heard so much rubbish as some of the posts on swing path. The correct swing path can only go one way. That is from In to square to in again. The ball is several feet to the side of you. Your body turns in a circular movement. So therefore so does the club. Just try this hold the club straight out infront of you and turn your body. What path does the club head take? it goes in a circular path. But as the ball is on the ground the club still takes the same path but on a angle. It is not straight back in anyway.
		
Click to expand...

The club travels in-to-square and in again however the ball is struck BEFORE the point of tangency (lowest point) and therefore *the swingpath at impact is IN-TO-OUT*.

(It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt - Abraham Lincoln)


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



murphthemog said:



			I agree there is no such thing as back spin, side spin etc, here is just a tilted axis of rotation. I have argued this ad infinitum on here before.
		
Click to expand...

In Murph's defence this is true, he has said so many times before.

That said it's easier (especially somewhere like an open forum) to describe an angled spin to someone on *2* axis, eg: backspin and sidespin.... for ease of understanding even trackman does this


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## JustOne (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			Thought you might reply Brian. I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it right. But read the posts on this tread? Some are just rubbish. i.e. In to out, with an open club face= a draw?????? That will give a pushed slice every day of the week. There are more like that
		
Click to expand...

Using basic numbers: A push draw is created with a clubface open 5Â° to the target and a swingpath travelling outwards (at impact) of 10Â° from the target

The clubface at impact is AIMING RIGHT but the swingpath is sufficient to impart draw spin.



(It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt - Abraham Lincoln)


----------



## bobmac (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*




			In to out, with an open club face= a draw?????? That will give a pushed slice every day of the week.
		
Click to expand...





You are both right.

However if you look at the pic, although the face is open to the target it's closed to the path, and as the path is ITO, its a draw all day. 
If the face was square to the path and ITO then it's a block all day.
Clubface rules


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Phil2511 said:



			Would anyone like to have Furyks swing?
		
Click to expand...

I already have mate...............:fore:


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			Tour players hit a fade biased club (open clubface) so they can hit a raking draw with less chance of losing the ball to the left (hook). They have no problem swinging from the inside. If anything they are more likely to block it and be looking in the right rough.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think you will find that is what I was saying.....Tour players need the face open at address to make sure they get it square through impact


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



View attachment 312


You are both right.

However if you look at the pic, although the face is open to the target it's closed to the path, and as the path is ITO, its a draw all day. 
If the face was square to the path and ITO then it's a block all day.
Clubface rules
		
Click to expand...

Nice one Bob. Someone with some sense and knowledge on this. 

Swinging in to out does not determine the shape of the shot but the direction it will initially start on.


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## richy (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			Nice one Bob. Someone with some sense and knowledge on this. 

Swinging in to out does not determine the shape of the shot but the direction it will initially start on.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I always thought. I was getting confused reading all these posts


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

The ball flight laws have changed. Sadly some coffin dodgers haven't caught up yet and still talk about the old rules, hence the confusion.

The old laws were swing path = starting direction
Club face = side spin.

Since then, the boffins got the high speed cameras, and discovered that that wasn't quite true.

The gospel being taught at the moment is this...

When the club strikes the ball, the ball's initial direction will be heavily influenced by where the clubface is pointing (although the swing path will still affect it a little.  Some say it's 80% club face and the rest swing path).

 Then, the direction of the swing path will move the ball in the air, so out to in = left to right.
HTH :fore:


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## AmandaJR (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Thanks for the clarification Bob as I too was getting confused. My coach showed my this principal using a hula hoop to indicate swing path relative to the direction the club face was pointing. I like to understand the mechanics and why something happens in order to help my brain try and replicate the movement...

The launch monitor thingy he uses also show the degrees right or left the ball started and the amount of side spin which when you relate it to the direction the ball travels also helps.


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## Piece (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Have a look at a rival magazine's story on this in their December issue. Explains all about shot shape, swing path...


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## SGC001 (Dec 11, 2011)

I accept the changes in the ball flight laws and part of D-plane is the angle of attack affecting the path leading to the 'true' path. Effectively 1 degree of down is equal to 1 degree of out and similarly 2 degrees of up is equal to 2 degrees of in.

The ball'll start off at roughly 80% (it does depend on certain factors and will vary) of club face direction and curve relative to the difference between face and path.

In fairness to the old ball flight laws if you take out the truly horrible shots like the pull hook and push slice, which you don't see that often and certainly wouldn't see that often amongst the better players (unless they were trying to hit it) anything starting right of target would be the result of an in to out path (plus relevant face angle) and anything left of target an out to in path (plus relevant face angle). So basically you are underplane if starting the ball right and overplane if starting the ball left.

All of it is still asumming centred hits


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## richy (Dec 11, 2011)

Just so I understand this better, what would cause a push fade/slice?

Would it be an in to out swing but with the clubface way open in relation to the swing path?


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh bugger it.......this is getting very very confusing now. Out to in, in to out, 1 degree of down is equal to 1 degree of out. In reality what does all this mean to the club golfer. I am not a pro I am not a golf coach. All this is just making me think too much about how I swing the club and is likely to get in my head. All I know is I have a good position at address and then have a backswing like Furyk. I take it away on the outside but then come on the inside on the downswing, due to the horrible loop at the top of my backswing. But hey I release my hands very fast through impact so square the club up and get a lovely powerful controlled draw. 

I am not going to think too much about my swing while it works perfectly. I think I will just stay with one thought in my mind.........
GRIP IT AND RIP IT BABY.....:fore:


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## timchump (Dec 11, 2011)

This post is a bit of an eye opener for me 


my bad shot is a hook which i always thought was due to an out to in swing and straight or closed club face.

Hit a few of my pattened hook this morning had a a propper look at my divot (for a change), it was  straight! did a small adjustment on the next swing opening up the face a touch and it worked a treat.

I think this sort of knowledge is key, 

allows you to confidentally  make mini adjustments on your way round, which im sure loads of people do


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

richy said:



			Just so I understand this better, what would cause a push fade/slice?

Would it be an in to out swing but with the clubface way open in relation to the swing path?
		
Click to expand...

That is correct for a push-fade and a push-slice.*

Most club golfers hit a PULL-SLICE which is different as it starts left.


*Note: It's not so much an in to out swing per se, just it's in-to-out at the point of contact.


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			Nice one Bob. Someone with some sense and knowledge on this. 

Swinging in to out does not determine the shape of the shot but the direction it will initially start on.
		
Click to expand...

No, the clubface determines the direction it will initially start on.


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			No, the clubface determines the direction it will initially start on.
		
Click to expand...

This is my point it all appears to be getting a bit too technical now. So tell me one thing if you swing in to out then what will happen to the ball???


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

timchump said:



			This post is a bit of an eye opener for me 


my bad shot is a hook which i always thought was due to an out to in swing and straight or closed club face.

Hit a few of my pattened hook this morning had a a propper look at my divot (for a change), it was straight! did a small adjustment on the next swing opening up the face a touch and it worked a treat.

I think this sort of knowledge is key,
		
Click to expand...

It is.

If you can ensure your swingpath and point of contact remain constant then you can control your ball flight simply by opening/closing the clubface (grip)

Likewise if you can control your clubface and swingpath then you can control your ball flight just by altering the point of contact (weight shift)


----------



## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			This is my point it all appears to be getting a bit too technical now. So tell me one thing if you swing in to out then what will happen to the ball???
		
Click to expand...

I agree it's confusing.

If your swing AT CONTACT is in-to-out the ball will draw UNLESS the clubface is pointing more right than you are swinging, in which case it will fade.



The ball flight laws are paramount in learning what is going on in someones swing and therefore being able to know what they are doing wrong, or right, according to their ball flight. And how to achieve a desired ballflight eg: If someone wants to learn to hit a push-fade then you need to know what the clubface, swingpath and point of contact need to be otherwise how can you possibly instruct them?


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			I agree it's confusing.

If your swing AT CONTACT is in-to-out the ball will draw UNLESS the clubface is pointing more right than you are swinging, in which case it will fade.



The ball flight laws are paramount in learning what is going on in someones swing and therefore being able to know what they are doing wrong, or right, according to their ball flight. And how to achieve a desired ballflight eg: If someone wants to learn to hit a push-fade then you need to know what the clubface, swingpath and point of contact need to be otherwise how can you possibly instruct them?
		
Click to expand...

Far too technical for my liking. That is what I pay my pro for when I have lessons to worry about all of that. I have already said on this post I have Furyk style backswing, comes slightly on the in to out but I have high hand speed so the club face comes through square so I hit a lovely long powerful draw. I am going to wipe this from my head now and thinnk about playing rather than gettin too wrapped up in the technicalities of the swing. 

I heard Butch Harmon saying in an interview once that club golfers spend too much time looking into the technicalities of the golf swing. They fill their head with so many thoughts that they forget how to hit the ball.


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I heard Butch Harmon saying in an interview once that club golfers spend too much time looking into the technicalities of the golf swing. They fill their head with so many thoughts that they forget how to hit the ball.
		
Click to expand...

That's true because I can tell you that if you are hitting a 'lovely long powerful draw' then you're clubface isn't as square as you might think  so it's probably for the best if you didn't know that and just carried on with what you're doing if you're happy... but you have to consider those that are NOT happy and how you might be able to help them (factually) if you don't know what you actually do yourself.


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## Scouser (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

A question for bob..... If u didn't see my swing but saw the ball flight could you tell the swing path and club position


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Scouser said:



			A question for bob..... If u didn't see my swing but saw the ball flight could you tell the swing path and club position
		
Click to expand...

By watching the ball flight and hearing the contact, I think  I could make a pretty good guess


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			That's true because I can tell you that if you are hitting a 'lovely long powerful draw' then you're clubface isn't as square as you might think  so it's probably for the best if you didn't know that and just carried on with what you're doing if you're happy... but you have to consider those that are NOT happy and how you might be able to help them (factually) if you don't know what you actually do yourself.
		
Click to expand...

This is the exact reason why I do not try and teach people to swing the golf club. I leave that to the fully trained and qualified instructors. Ok I may give some tips that are so obvious they need to be said but would never start to look too far into a golf swing. I know my club head is square to my body at impact as I have seen this during a video lesson. All I know is that my swing was good enough to have got me down to a 5 handicap before i had my knee injury.

The point I was making regarding Butch Harmons opinion is that too many people strive to have this perfect text book golf swing. But not many tour pros have it so why do club golfers strive to achieve it. He said that there is only a few of things that you need to do to have a good consistent swing:
1: Have a good setup, body and club inline to the target and a good grip.
2: As your hands enter the hitting zone at the 9 o'clock position with the clubface pointing away from your body, release the hands through to the 3 o'clock position making the clubface point behind you.
He showed a few slowed down swings of different tour pros and they had very different swings but they all had those 2 principles the same.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Butch Harmon has made his living from filling peoples heads with swing thoughts.  The X factor being one of them.

I would also disagree that understanding exactly what effects the flight of a golf ball is to technical.  If you understand it then you can do something about it, if you dont then you can keep paying the money for someone to confuse you and keep hitting into the trees.

This video is of a Proffessional at a golf teaching school showing you the wrong way to shape a draw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6DY2Vw3Qc


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			This video is of a Proffessional at a golf teaching school showing you the wrong way to shape a draw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6DY2Vw3Qc

Click to expand...

I knew that video was going to make me feel sick to the pit of my stomach - I was right 

Just thinking about how many people have listened to that advice (and still swear by it) is frightening.

The one for the fade is 'interesting' too.... I wonder who's prepared to spot the faults in that one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufDPI0QfCA  Any takers?


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## Scouser (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Sr and Jo obviuoly I am well aware of the mistakes there but others may not be......

It may be helpful if u pointed out the errors for the uneducated.... Which does not include me (honest )


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			Butch Harmon has made his living from filling peoples heads with swing thoughts.  The X factor being one of them.

I would also disagree that understanding exactly what effects the flight of a golf ball is to technical.  If you understand it then you can do something about it, if you dont then you can keep paying the money for someone to confuse you and keep hitting into the trees.

This video is of a Proffessional at a golf teaching school showing you the wrong way to shape a draw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6DY2Vw3Qc

Click to expand...

Being in aerospace engineering and having several qualifications in this I understand very easily how the golf ball flies. I just think that too many people are trying to over complicate this game. So by going on what you are saying if I fully understand how the golf ball flies and what causes it to react the way it does when I strike it, I will be able to hit the perfect golf shot everytime? When I do not hit the perfect shot I will know exactly why? Bugger me I'm changing my job...I'm going on tour as a golf coach...:whoo:


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			if I fully understand how the golf ball flies and what causes it to react the way it does when I strike it, I will be able to hit the perfect golf shot everytime? When I do not hit the perfect shot I will know exactly why?
		
Click to expand...

Surprisingly you're not that far off base with that answer.... apart from the part about actually being able to hit a decent shot   LOL



MadAdey said:



			Bugger me I'm changing my job...I'm going on tour as a golf coach...:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

LOL  Even with a rudimentary understanding of the ballflights (how to create and control them) you'd be better than most you might find in your local pro shop! 





FORE!!! :fore:


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## kid2 (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			I knew that video was going to make me feel sick to the pit of my stomach - I was right 

Just thinking about how many people have listened to that advice (and still swear by it) is frightening.

The one for the fade is 'interesting' too.... I wonder who's prepared to spot the faults in that one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufDPI0QfCA  Any takers?
		
Click to expand...




This might be an awfully stupid question.
But why are these the wrong ways to shape a ball?


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

In both examples the clubface is aiming at the target.... which is behind the tree... so basically you are aiming at the tree 

The draw is infact a pull-hook and the fade is actually a push-fade (almost a push-slice), both could potentially hit the tree.

Not so bad you say as potentially both shots could scrape it round the tree and land on the target, right? Well if that's the case and you learn how to play both of these shots why not just learn to play the PROPER shots in the first place?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



kid2 said:



			This might be an awfully stupid question.
But why are these the wrong ways to shape a ball?
		
Click to expand...

He tells you to point the clubface in the direction you want the ball to end up and swing the club in the direction you want the ball to start, this is wrong.

He says to draw the ball around the tree then point the clubface at the tree then swing the club to the right of the tree.   If you did that then the ball would fly towards the tree and then hook to the left of the tree.

The correct way would be to point the clubface to the right of the tree then swing in-to-out further right of the clubface direction.  This would start the ball to the right then bring the ball back to the left.

This video explains the 'D Plane'  and  how ball flight is affected.   Stick with it and watch it a few times and you will get a better understanding of how your ball flight is affected by clubface and swingpath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ&feature=related


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## kid2 (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			He tells you to point the clubface in the direction you want the ball to end up and swing the club in the direction you want the ball to start, this is wrong.

He says to draw the ball around the tree then point the clubface at the tree then swing the club to the right of the tree.   If you did that then the ball would fly towards the tree and then hook to the left of the tree.

The correct way would be to point the clubface to the right of the tree then swing in-to-out further right of the clubface direction.  This would start the ball to the right then bring the ball back to the left.

This video explains the 'D Plane'  and  how ball flight is affected.   Stick with it and watch it a few times and you will get a better understanding of how your ball flight is affected by clubface and swingpath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ&feature=related

Click to expand...



So the statement "Point your clubface where you want the ball to finish is all wrong"?


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## USER1999 (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Completely and utterly.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



kid2 said:



			So the statement "Point your clubface where you want the ball to finish is all wrong"?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the ball takes off in the direction of the clubface, or in his case at the tree.


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## MadAdey (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I must be missing something here but I feel like I am starting to read the biggest load of crap I have ever read on the game of golf. So what you are saying then is that you need to have 3 different swings to play golf. A straight one, A fade one and a draw one. If I was to swing from out to in then I would have to change my swing totally to do that. I have a naturally fast hand action through impact so I tend to swing on the in to out to keep control of the clubface and make sure that it comes back to the ball square. To swing out to in I am going to have to change my hand release and weight shift so that the clubface just does not close up and give me a big pull hook. If you set up with your body aiming left of target and open the clubface the ball has to start off on the on the line of the swing it is then the side spin that is put onto the ball that will make it move to the right in the air. That is very simple physics and principles of aero dynamics. So let us turn this into a science lesson now then. I am more than happy to discuss this as an experiment.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I must be missing something here but I feel like I am starting to read the biggest load of crap I have ever read on the game of golf. So what you are saying then is that you need to have 3 different swings to play golf. A straight one, A fade one and a draw one.
		
Click to expand...

Who said that then?   The discussion has been explaining what actually creates the direction the ball takes off with and what makes it bend in flight.   You can hit the ball any way you like if that makes you happy.



MadAdey said:



			If I was to swing from out to in then I would have to change my swing totally to do that. I have a naturally fast hand action through impact so I tend to swing on the in to out to keep control of the clubface and make sure that it comes back to the ball square. To swing out to in I am going to have to change my hand release and weight shift so that the clubface just does not close up and give me a big pull hook.
		
Click to expand...

Who said you need to swing out to in?   I dont think anyone has suggested you do that. 
If you want to fade or slice the ball your swingpath will need to be to the left of your clubface direction but no one is suggesting that you have to do it !!



MadAdey said:



			If you set up with your body aiming left of target and open the clubface the ball has to start off on the on the line of the swing it is then the side spin that is put onto the ball that will make it move to the right in the air. That is very simple physics and principles of aero dynamics. So let us turn this into a science lesson now then. I am more than happy to discuss this as an experiment.
		
Click to expand...

You dont seem to understand the physics of what creates sidespin on the ball.   It is not the direction you set your body at, it is the difference between the direction vector of the clubface and the direction vector of the swingpath that creates sidespin.  Did you look at the video I posted earlier, that explained it very well.

If you want to discuss this in more detail then please do, I would suggest you look up 'D Plane' or 'New Ball Flight Laws' first though.


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## JustOne (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I must be missing something here but I feel like I am starting to read the biggest load of crap I have ever read on the game of golf. So what you are saying then is that you need to have 3 different swings to play golf. A straight one, A fade one and a draw one. If I was to swing from out to in then I would have to change my swing totally to do that. I have a naturally fast hand action through impact so I tend to swing on the in to out to keep control of the clubface and make sure that it comes back to the ball square. To swing out to in I am going to have to change my hand release and weight shift so that the clubface just does not close up and give me a big pull hook. If you set up with your body aiming left of target and open the clubface the ball has to start off on the on the line of the swing it is then the side spin that is put onto the ball that will make it move to the right in the air. That is very simple physics and principles of aero dynamics. So let us turn this into a science lesson now then. I am more than happy to discuss this as an experiment.
		
Click to expand...

Without meaning to be patronising I have a question for you to consider......

Why would you want to swing out-to-in?




{haha SocketRocket - you beat me to it!}  Grrrrrr....


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

The first half of this is an excellent read

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm


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## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Piece said:



			The first half of this is an excellent read

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

Click to expand...

Hehe  Some will be complaining that it's all getting toooooooo complicated 

Don't forget to watch this vid (it's much easier to understand)....
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...hing-quot-including-a-draw-with-open-clubface.....



{ha! I see someone fixed the title typo of this thread!} LOL


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## Imurg (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Wow, there's some serious info here that's going to help a lot of people to think their way into swinging like an Orangutan next time they're on the course.
Not knocking the info at all. It all makes sense.
My problem would be trying to think about it all during a swing - I'd forget about hitting the ball.....
Most of us think too much on the course.
Do your thinking on the range first...


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## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			The correct way would be to point the clubface to the right of the tree then swing in-to-out further right of the clubface direction.  This would start the ball to the right then bring the ball back to the left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ&feature=related

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but everyone on here just appears to keep contradicting them self. You said you never need to change your swing path but clearly this is what you are saying here. The video that has been put up and then pulled to pieces is actually from the David Leadbetter academy. Would he allow someone to teach the wrong thing let alone put a video of it on the internet. Now surely someone who has spent nearly 30 years instructing some of the worlds greatest golfers would now what he is talking about. You want me to believe that a video from a golf coach at Stanford knows more about how to play golf than Leadbetter? If he did he would not be working at Stanford would he. DO not get me wrong I think the Leadbetter swing theory is an idealistic view and most people can't do what he talks about but.....surely he understands something basic like how to draw and fade the ball on command.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Can I point you in the direction of my post #70 in this thread.

Bottom line is.......

To draw the ball round a tree, aim your body where you want the ball to start.
Then, instead of pointing your clubface where you want the ball to finish (old teaching and will hit the tree) Instead, point it a little left of where your body is aiming. Then swing normally.

Disclaimer
This information assumes you normally have a neutral swingpath/swingplane/clubface at impact.


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I have just read back on the posts that people have put on here and it seems that everyone is trying to talk about the same thing but appear to be contradicting each other. Let me get this correct then as different people are starting to confuse me. Is the initial flight path of the ball relative to the angle that the club is swung on. Is the spin that is imparted onto the ball in relation to the face angle against the angle of travel of the face in relation to the body. The ball has to set off in a direction proportional to the angle the club is swung on. ie If you are aiming left of the target and swing inline with your body then the ball must start on a flight path left of the target. If it does not then Newtons laws are incorrect and the whole world has been living some kind of lie. If you hit the ball the ball will accelerate and the initial direction of the ball will be in relation to the angle that it was struck. It is the force of the impact behind the ball that makes it move. That movement will be away from the impact, so the direction of travel has to initially be in a direction in relation to the direction of travel of the object that struck it.


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			Can I point you in the direction of my post #70 in this thread.

Bottom line is.......

To draw the ball round a tree, aim your body where you want the ball to start.
Then, instead of pointing your clubface where you want the ball to finish (old teaching and will hit the tree) Instead, point it a little left of where your body is aiming. Then swing normally.

Disclaimer
This information assumes you normally have a neutral swingpath/swingplane/clubface at impact.  

Click to expand...

I agree 110% with you Bob. It is not what you are saying that I am arguing against. It is when people tart talking about in to out and out to in swing paths to help you shape the ball.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I agree 110% with you Bob. It is not what you are saying that I am arguing against. It is when people tart talking about in to out and out to in swing paths to help you shape the ball.
		
Click to expand...

Well, if you aim left of the target, the swingpath will change in relation to the target


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			Can I point you in the direction of my post #70 in this thread.

Bottom line is.......

To draw the ball round a tree, aim your body where you want the ball to start.
Then, instead of pointing your clubface where you want the ball to finish (old teaching and will hit the tree) Instead, point it a little left of where your body is aiming. Then swing normally.

Disclaimer
This information assumes you normally have a neutral swingpath/swingplane/clubface at impact. 

Click to expand...

Same as the old method Bob.... a pull/pull-hook .  You surprise me.


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			Well, if you aim left of the target, the swingpath will change in relation to the target
		
Click to expand...

Of course it will change in relation to the target but the swing plane is still the same as you have moved your body to aim left of the target. If I aim left of the target then open the face and swing the club on my normal swing plane then will the ball start left of target and move back to the right or not? What I am reading from some of the people on here is that I have to start changing the angle of my swing plane to actually hit a shaped shot. Or am I just getting confused by the people on here trying to look too deep into how to shape the ball. They are making some very good points but also contradicting each other on the same subject?


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			The video that has been put up and then pulled to pieces is actually from the David Leadbetter academy. Would he allow someone to teach the wrong thing let alone put a video of it on the internet. Now surely someone who has spent nearly 30 years instructing some of the worlds greatest golfers would now what he is talking about.
		
Click to expand...

All the pros accept that the ballflight laws were wrong.... well apart from Bobmac it seems.


http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws will show Nick Faldo giving the wrong advice also.

This stuff is well old already, we've all been discussing/using this info for over 2years now and it seems some people still want to argue with it, probably on the basis that they don't understand it.

Did you watch the vid in the other thread MadAdey?


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I watched it. So what you are saying is that what people have been doing for decades now is wrong?


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			All the pros accept that the ballflight laws were wrong.... well apart from Bobmac it seems.
		
Click to expand...

No James, I'm trying to simplify things.


----------



## timchump (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

good illustraion of the importance of face angle vs swing path

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHiY5iv5u4


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I watched it. So what you are saying is that what people have been doing for decades now is wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Ha! Don't think it's something to do with just me.... *EVERYONE* says that. 

Read the stuff that's been posted in the past few posts. Google it...do whatever you want with it apart from dispute it... your good friend PHYSICS has proved that the old ways were wrong.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			No James, I'm trying to simplify things.
		
Click to expand...

Telling someone to draw the ball around a tree using a pull-hook is WRONG Bob.

The way you have explained it is the SAME as the old way... clubface closed to body line..that's a pull-hook (and a snap hook waiting to happen) whichever way you think you've told it.


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			Telling someone to draw the ball around a tree using a pull-hook is WRONG Bob.

The way you have explained it is the SAME as the old way... clubface closed to body line..that's a pull-hook (and a snap hook waiting to happen) whichever way you think you've told it.
		
Click to expand...

Then please tell me in simple terms if I want to go around an object with a draw then how do I do it? Tell me how to set my body my clubface and how to swing


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

James, your theory is sound, but in the real world on the driving range, do you know how many people can actually swing in to out and close the face in relation to the swingpath but open to the target line?
If you're lucky 1%


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I know what you are going to say Bob and I agree with you. But I want one of the people that are going on about this new theory to please tell me how to do this. I have an object that I wish to fade the ball around. Can you tell how to do this please using your new theory. Go as in depth and technical as you want.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Fade or draw? or both?

I'm on my way out the door to play.... happy to answer any/all questions when I get back (5pm-ish)


----------



## Piece (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I know what you are going to say Bob and I agree with you. But I want one of the people that are going on about this new theory to please tell me how to do this. I have an object that I wish to fade the ball around. Can you tell how to do this please using your new theory. Go as in depth and technical as you want.
		
Click to expand...

Read the link I posted above. There's a specific example of how to fade a ball around a tree....


----------



## DaveM (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Sorry but a lot still does not make sence. If your swingpath is in to out at impact and your club head is square to your swingpath. You will push the ball, straight right. And vis-visa. A normal swing path should be. In to square back to in. Hitting the ball in the square bit of the swing. Its all to do with the ball position. Get that wrong and it will make no differance how good your swing is. The ball will go anywhere, depending if its to far forward or to far back in your stance.


----------



## DaveM (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Good tread this by the way.


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



DaveM said:



			Good tread this by the way.
		
Click to expand...

This is what is confusing me a bit. The ball will start its flight in relation to the angle that the club was swung with. That is Newton's 3rd law I think. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" So if I am aiming right and swing the club parallel to my body then the initial flight of the ball will be on that path. then if I have the club face closed the spin imparted on the ball will then take effect and make the ball move from right to left. If I hit it with an open face I will then have a push slice? Am I correct or not?


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

A number of posts back I posted a link to a video that explains the 'D Plane' and how it affects the flight of the golf ball.   If people actually watch it and take in the explanation then they may start to understand the reality of the way a ball is shaped.

If anyone here still does not understand the way it works then look at the video before asking questions or suggesting that if people like Leadbetter say something then it must be correct.

here is the link again.  Please follow it.  I will be quite happy to discuss its content:  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZ3V...eature=related

Here is another good video that was posted that proves without doubt how the ball takes off in the direction of the clubface irrespective of swingpath.  How can anyone suggest it's wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHiY5iv5u4

Heres another easy to understand example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahmKhrK8xHE&feature=related

Look at them. Think about it.  Try it out on the range.   Become a good shaper of the ball.


----------



## timchump (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			This is what is confusing me a bit. The ball will start its flight in relation to the angle that the club was swung with. That is Newton's 3rd law I think. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" So if I am aiming right and swing the club parallel to my body then the initial flight of the ball will be on that path. then if I have the club face closed the spin imparted on the ball will then take effect and make the ball move from right to left. If I hit it with an open face I will then have a push slice? Am I correct or not?
		
Click to expand...

please watch this video , it should help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHiY5iv5u4


----------



## richy (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			This is what is confusing me a bit. The ball will start its flight in relation to the angle that the club was swung with. That is Newton's 3rd law I think. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" So if I am aiming right and swing the club parallel to my body then the initial flight of the ball will be on that path. then if I have the club face closed the spin imparted on the ball will then take effect and make the ball move from right to left. If I hit it with an open face I will then have a push slice? Am I correct or not?
		
Click to expand...

If I'm honest this makes more sense. I know it may be the old way and be wrong now but this is easier to understand.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

What would happen if you swung the club on a straight line to the target but with an open face?


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Right another simple question for this thread....old ball flight law wrong ....new one right.........

question is why did every pro NOT  hit "THAT" tree??


----------



## MashieNiblick (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Fascinating if complicated thread that made my brain hurt.

One thing puzzles me. If the "old" method was wrong how come the pros who used it were able to _actually_ bend the ball round trees. Was it that they weren't doing what they thought they were doing?

Just looked at the lesson on the hook in Tom Watsons "Lessons of a Lifetime" DVD. He says to hit a hook there are 3 methods:

1. Aim right, pull your right foot back and rotate the hands faster through impact.
2. Hood (close) the club face (re-grip not just turn the hands) and aim right (Nicklaus's method)
3. Aim right and strengthen your grip (i.e turn the left hand over so it is more on top of the club and the right hand under).

He demontstrates all 3 and of course draws/hooks the ball perfectly each time.

To hit an extreme hook (i.e. to get round a tree) he says to use a comnibation of all 3.

1. Hood the club face;
2. Strengthen the grip;
3. Aim right of the target;
4. Rotate the hands faster through impact.

Then he does it and gets a really nice curving draw/hook that starts a long way right and moves back to the left.

He does each one totally naturally and makes it look absurdly easy.

Well he is a legend so he should, shouldn't he.:smirk:


----------



## MashieNiblick (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Scouser said:



			Right another simple question for this thread....old ball flight law wrong ....new one right.........

question is why did every pro NOT  hit "THAT" tree??
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha just what I was thinking too!


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MashieNiblick said:



			Ha ha just what I was thinking too!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but u r a smart a$$

You went and did research lol

:clap:


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MashieNiblick said:



			One thing puzzles me. If the "old" method was wrong how come the pros who used it were able to _actually_ bend the ball round trees. Was it that they weren't doing what they thought they were doing?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The clubface never got to where they were pointing it when they made the actual swing, it was more open (not square or closed) than they thought thereby missing the tree. It comes with practicing the move and then it becomes so ingrained you actually believe that you are doing it right... rather like telling someone they are standing closed, even though you can see it a mile off they won't believe you...so you put tour stix down on their foot line and they STILL try to tell you otherwise or remark how they're "playing for a big draw this time" 



This is a good video.... particularly important if you're about to part with your cash for a lesson..
*not* because it's about stack and tilt but because it pertains to the way we've all been taught wrong by PGA club pros for DECADES http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10775 

There ARE ways to check if you're about to get a 'proper lesson'.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			Then please tell me in simple terms if I want to go around an object with a draw then how do I do it?
		
Click to expand...

Set up square to your target with the ball a fraction back in your stance, open the clubface so it's aiming right of the tree, lean the club forward towards the target a few inches... and swing.



The ball will start to the right of the tree (where you aimed the clubface), because it is back in your stance and the club is tilted forward you will hit it with an in-to-out path and it will curve round the tree and land on the target.

The more you want to draw or even hook it the more back in your stance and more tilted the club needs to be. The shot will always be the same you simply adjust the curvature, with practice it's pretty easy.

Just to clarify... you are hooking it with an open clubface relative to the target... looks like you're going to carve it waaaay right but physics stops that from happening because you are controlling the swingpath and forcing it to be in-to-out (drawspin).


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			What would happen if you swung the club on a straight line to the target but with an open face?
		
Click to expand...

The ball would take off towards the target and then fade right.


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Not that I want to answer the question twice....but here goes....



MashieNiblick said:



			One thing puzzles me. If the "old" method was wrong how come the pros who used it were able to _actually_ bend the ball round trees. Was it that they weren't doing what they thought they were doing?
		
Click to expand...






			Absolutely. The clubface never got to where they were pointing it when they made the actual swing, it was more open (not square or closed) than they thought thereby missing the tree.
		
Click to expand...


AND HERE'S THE PROOF... this is Michael Breed, world famous PGA instructor, probably as good as you're going to get on TV...you probably couldn't afford a lesson with him...getting it wrong 

He's using the Bobmac technique, oops! I mean the old technique that is wrong, ..however his clubface never gets to where he thinks it will (he opens it unwittingly by HABIT) *and blocks it right!!!*....


[video=youtube;obgy1KrP6yk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obgy1KrP6yk[/video]

So even though he's practically set up to hit a 'snap hook' he actually barely gets any hook on the ball...(LOL)

Millions of viewers are now being taught the wrong way, pretty cool huh? 




"It started a little bit to the right of where I wanted it to start" LOLOLOLOL


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Scouser said:



			Right another simple question for this thread....old ball flight law wrong ....new one right.........

question is why did every pro NOT  hit "THAT" tree??
		
Click to expand...

All pros dont do it that way.

Many Pros may be great strikers of the ball and have great feel on how to hit shots but they dont always do what they think they are doing. High speed cameras and Trackman have shown this to be the case.

Here is a simple test you can make.  Take a putter and a ball.  Line up the ball to a target.  keeping the putter face pointing to the target hit the ball by cutting across it from out to in then from in to out.  You will see that the ball will travel straight towards the target.

Here is yet another video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKG_RgmLfiQ


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			The ball would take off towards the target and then fade right.
		
Click to expand...

Typo there sorry.

The ball would take off to the right and fade right.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			Typo there sorry.

The ball would take off to the right and fade right.
		
Click to expand...

James, believe it or not, I'm agreeing with you.
I was taught the new rules by the PGA so I would imagine all pros who qualified since 2004 and I'm sure many years before that do as well. I too am surprised at the guys still using the old laws.


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			Typo there sorry.

The ball would take off to the right and fade right.
		
Click to expand...

Doenst the video show a draw left?


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			James, believe it or not, I'm agreeing with you.
		
Click to expand...

#bless#  Love yooooooooooooooo


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Scouser said:



			Doenst the video show a draw left?


Click to expand...

Sorry, dont know what you are referring to.  I was answering Bob's question.


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			Sorry, dont know what you are refering to.  I was answering Bob's question.
		
Click to expand...

Right sorry I thought u were on about the video you posted with the putter. My mistake


----------



## DaveM (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Ok got it sorted. Now makes sence. Big thanks to Brian and the rest of you. Not forgetting you Bob. Really good this thread. We need more of this type lol.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Now, what happens if you swing a club across the ball at an angle but with the clubface pointing at the target ?


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			Now, what happens if you swing a club across the ball at an angle but with the clubface pointing at the target ?
		
Click to expand...

Across the ball which way?!?!?!?

Oh and I haven't said yet.... always black shoes


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Ok I am going to put an ice pack on my brain and cool it down. I understand what they are saying in the videos as I have watched them several times over the last couple of days. Thing is I do not know who is right on this forum or is it me not understanding what they are saying 

I understand that clubface in relation the swing will determine on what happens to the ball when it leaves the club. When I hear people going on about swinging in to out and out to in to make the ball draw and fade that is when I get confused by people. Also when I ask a question as this is very new to me as I have never read anything about it and the answer I get from high handicappers and even someone who does not have a handicap answering my question with watch this video. That really says to me they do not have a clue what they are talking about either otherwise they would give me their opinion on what they understand. 

Justone thanks for your replys they are very well informed and you appear to know what you are talking about. Bob as ever good listening to you.

One last thing though and I will not take any kind of debate on this either............IT HAS TO BE WHITE SHOES AND IF YOU HAVE PINK TROUSERS ALL THE BETTER.....


----------



## Imurg (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			Now, what happens if you swing a club across the ball at an angle but with the clubface pointing at the target ?
		
Click to expand...

Haven't got a Scooby - reading all this lot has burst my brain................


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## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Imurg said:



			Haven't got a Scooby - reading all this lot has burst my brain................
		
Click to expand...

Doesnt matter how I hit the result is always the same water, OOB or topped 

MadAdey take it that lot is with a white belt?


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



Scouser said:



			Doesnt matter how I hit the result is always the same water, OOB or topped 

MadAdey take it that lot is with a white belt?
		
Click to expand...

Definately a matching white nike belt to go with the trousers


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

I've just figured it all out at a last, I am going to sleep well tonight. Do you know what I have figured out???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stand square to the target. Swing the club down the line of my body on a perfect swing plane, make sure the clubhead is square. What will that do to the ball then...... that is right it will go bloody straight. If I do that and never stick it behind a bloody tree I will never have to worry about hitting a fade or draw....:whoo:


----------



## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			I've just figured it all out at a last, I am going to sleep well tonight. Do you know what I have figured out???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stand square to the target. Swing the club down the line of my body on a perfect swing plane, make sure the clubhead is square. What will that do to the ball then...... that is right it will go bloody straight. If I do that and never stick it behind a bloody tree I will never have to worry about hitting a fade or draw....:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

And if its a dog leg


----------



## Mattyboy (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

(to be said with a Michael Caine accent) - But that dosnt give you as much room if the pin is on the 'bloody' left!


----------



## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			I understand that clubface in relation the swing will determine on what happens to the ball when it leaves the club. When I hear people going on about swinging in to out and out to in to make the ball draw and fade that is when I get confused by people.
		
Click to expand...

I'll write a *quick* thread for you about the entire process................. take from it what you will.

What is your h/cap?


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



JustOne said:



			I'll write a *quick* thread for you about the entire process................. take from it what you will.

What is your h/cap?
		
Click to expand...

Before or after the 3 year lay off?


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



MadAdey said:



			Ok I am going to put an ice pack on my brain and cool it down. I understand what they are saying in the videos as I have watched them several times over the last couple of days. Thing is I do not know who is right on this forum or is it me not understanding what they are saying 

I understand that clubface in relation the swing will determine on what happens to the ball when it leaves the club. When I hear people going on about swinging in to out and out to in to make the ball draw and fade that is when I get confused by people. Also when I ask a question as this is very new to me as I have never read anything about it and the answer I get from high handicappers and even someone who does not have a handicap answering my question with watch this video. That really says to me they do not have a clue what they are talking about either otherwise they would give me their opinion on what they understand. 

Justone thanks for your replys they are very well informed and you appear to know what you are talking about. Bob as ever good listening to you.

One last thing though and I will not take any kind of debate on this either............IT HAS TO BE WHITE SHOES AND IF YOU HAVE PINK TROUSERS ALL THE BETTER.....

Click to expand...

I have refered people to videos as I assume (correctly I think) that they show graphically how it works and most people find it easier to see it rather than desipher long explanations.

I dont know if you are refering to me but I am not a high handicapper and do have a valid handicap.

To help you with your understanding without videos lets take away the in-to-out and out-to-in bit  and only consider the two vectors that make up the D plane surface.   When the clubface actually strikes the ball it has two directions:

1) the vector the sweetspot is pointing.  This is a line that travels perpendicular to the sweetspot, it will be a compound direction that is pointing upwards due to loft and forwards due to the direction the clubface is pointing.

2) the direction the clubface is traveling at impact.  It may be pointing directly at the ball or it may be striking the ball at an accute angle that cuts across it.  This cutting direction may be travelling from right to left by an angle or left to right by an angle.

When the clubface strikes the ball as in 1) above the ball will compress on the clubface then the coefficient of restoration (COR) will propell the ball forward in a near normal direction to the one the sweetspot is pointing. The fact that there was loft on the clubface the ball will also start to spin backwards, this creates lift (Magnus Effect)

If the clubface hits the ball perfectly square without cutting across it then the ball will move away with the axis of rotation square and the ball will not curve right or left, other than the affects of side wind.

If the clubface cuts across the ball from right-to-left  or left-to-right (as is 2) above)then the axis of rotation will be tilted and the ball will turn in flight.  A tilt to the right will create clockwise motion (Slice/Fade). A tilt to the left will create an anticlockwise motion (Hook/Draw)

To determine the direction the the axis of rotation will tilt you need to visualise the 'D Plane'  This is a swept surface (think of a netting streched between the two vectors) that is formed between the lower direction vector (Clubhead direction) and the upper direction vector (Sweetspot direction)   The axis of rotation will lie perpendicular to the swept surface.  Think of the axis as a set of aeroplane wings that turn the ball right or left as they follow the 'D Plane' surface.

I hope this is a little more informative.   I have no real preference with shoes and trousers so go with whats on offer.


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## Scouser (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			I hope this is a little more informative.   I have no real preference with shoes and trousers so go with whats on offer.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry SR i have found it informative it was me who started the shoe debate in relation to Bobs other question


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## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



SocketRocket said:



			I have refered people to videos as I assume (correctly I think) that they show graphically how it works and most people find it easier to see it rather than desipher long explanations.

I dont know if you are refering to me but I am not a high handicapper and do have a valid handicap.

To help you with your understanding without videos lets take away the in-to-out and out-to-in bit  and only consider the two vectors that make up the plane surface.   When the clubface actually strikes the ball it has two directions:

1) the vector the sweetspot is pointing.  This is a line that travels perpendicular to the sweetspot, it will be a compound direction that is pointing upwards due to loft and forwards due to the direction the clubface is pointing.

2) the direction the clubface is traveling at impact.  It may be pointing directly at the ball or it may be striking the ball at an accute angle that cuts across it.  This cutting direction may be travelling from right to left bt an angle or left to right at an angle.

When the clubface strikes the ball as in 1) above the ball will compress on the clubface then the coefficient of restoration (COR) will propell the ball forward in a near normal direction to the one the sweetspot is pointing. The fact that there was loft on the clubface the ball will also start to spin backwards, this creates lift (Magus Effect)

If the clubface hits the ball perfectly square without cutting across it then the ball will move away with the axis of rotation square and the ball will hnot curve right or left, other than the affects of side wind.

If the clubface cuts across the ball from right-to-left  or left-to-right (as is 2) above)then the axis of rotation will be tilted and the ball will turn in flight.  A tilt to the right will create clockwise motion (Slice/Fade).

To determine the direction the the axis of rotation will tilt you need to visualise the 'D Plane'  This is a swept surface (think of a netting streched between the two vectors) that is formed between the lower direction vector (Clubhead direction) and the upper direction vector (Sweetspot direction)   The axis of rotation will lie perpendicular to the swept surface.  Think of the axis as a set of aeroplane wings that turn the ball right or left as they follow the 'D Plane' surface.

I hope this is a little more informative.   I have no real preference with shoes and trousers so go with whats on offer.
		
Click to expand...

not aimed at you socket you obviously understand and I get what they are talking about now. Just some replies on here I have found to be confusing. All the scientific side of things interest me with this. I am an Engineer and have qualifications in science related subjects so it is interesting when we start talking about vectors


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## timchump (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

Justone and Socketrocket have really opened my eyes with  their postings on this thread

i breifley said in a prior post, i was playing in a medal on sunday hit a hook, 10 yards left of the green, a 200 yardish approach with a 4 iron

my normal rection would have been a self diagnoses of a out to in swing with a closed face, next tee shot i would have tried to swing more in to out to correct, 

However because of this post i looked at the divot which was straight, therefore concluded it was simply the club face being slightly closed.

Next teeshot regripped the club to open the face a little, tee shot down the middle

If id carried on with the my "old way" of thinking i would have no doubt exabarated the problem of my hook and my round could have gone downhill fast

It is a little surprising some people seem a little hostile do what in my brief experience has been a great help, and opednd my eyes

ive been playing golf 16 years, got down to single figures, after a long break have just got back into golf again this year, and i am fortunate to have a handicap of 16 at one of the premier courses in england.

 my swing on my sig.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

6 months away from the forum and golf and it's good to see that the quality of debate and information have not changed  Great read!

Some things have changed mind, still not got used to the new forum layout and Bob and James agreeing?!?!?!?


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## JustOne (Dec 12, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



bobmac said:



			i was playing in a medal on sunday hit a hook, 10 yards left of the green, a 200 yardish approach with a 4 iron

my normal rection would have been a self diagnoses of a out to in swing with a closed face, next tee shot i would have tried to swing more in to out to correct, 

However because of this post i looked at the divot which was straight, therefore concluded it was simply the club face being slightly closed.

Next teeshot regripped the club to open the face a little, tee shot down the middle

If id carried on with the my "old way" of thinking i would have no doubt exabarated the problem of my hook and my round could have gone downhill fast
		
Click to expand...

Pretty good self diagnosis there!,


"hit a hook, 10 yards left of the green, a 200 yardish approach with a 4 iron"

.... to me it sounds like pretty square clubface at impact and in-to-out path (ball starts pretty straight and drawspin takes it to the left)

Fix = open clubface a little to start the ball further right and swing normally.

Isn't that just the beauty of it?... fixing shots without even seeing them 

I don't even care where your hands were at the top as it frankly DOESN'T MATTER  LOL



MadAdey, what's your h/cap? Current or best.


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## richy (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

My bad shot either starts off dead straight and fades/slices right or is pushed right and fades/slices even further right. 
So I understand the new ball flight laws, what is the fix of this? Is it swing path or club face direction? Or both?


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 13, 2011)

leaney said:



			Evening all,

I've been playing for around 7 months, so I'm still new to the game.....but can somebody please tell me why people think that hitting a draw is good? What are the advantages

My pro keeps saying that I hit a nice draw...but I haven't even though to ask why that's good.

Isn't it better to hit it straight?

Thanks gents
		
Click to expand...

You can talk to a fade, but a hook doesnt listen.


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## SGC001 (Dec 13, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Not that I want to answer the question twice....but here goes....








AND HERE'S THE PROOF... this is Michael Breed, world famous PGA instructor, probably as good as you're going to get on TV...you probably couldn't afford a lesson with him...getting it wrong 

He's using the Bobmac technique, oops! I mean the old technique that is wrong, ..however his clubface never gets to where he thinks it will (he opens it unwittingly by HABIT) *and blocks it right!!!*....


[video=youtube;obgy1KrP6yk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obgy1KrP6yk[/video]

So even though he's practically set up to hit a 'snap hook' he actually barely gets any hook on the ball...(LOL)

Millions of viewers are now being taught the wrong way, pretty cool huh? 




"It started a little bit to the right of where I wanted it to start" LOLOLOLOL
		
Click to expand...

The thing I like about this video (it's blocked at work, but I'm sure it's the one) is the last few seconds where he's saying experiment with how far right you aim and how closed to that aim you get the clubface. Experimenting with how far right you aim and how closed the clubface is to that path is a great way to learn what actually happens in practice and how to create shots. Basically, if it's curving too much reduce that gap between clubface and path, if it's curving the amount you want and not finishing on target adjust your aim a bit.

Take someone who is hitting it straight and wants to curve it, assume a centred hit, no crosswind and level of attack:

Defining a draw is a shot starting right of target and curving back onto target, aiming right, but with the clubface open to the target and closed to the path is mechanically a simple way of achieving the draw.

Similarly aiming left and having the face open to that path, but closed to the target is a fairly simple way of hitting a fade.

There are other ways of creating these shots and tweaking the ball flight and it can be fun trying out what works for you and what you are capable of. 

I like simple, it suits me; but if your looking for numbers (although your brain is more likely to like pictures and nothing beats practical experience) if you've got a 5 iron and aim yourself 5 degrees right of target, have the clubface 3 degrees open to the target and 2 degrees closed to the path; you'll get something approximating a draw. The ball'll start about 3 1/2 degrees right of taret (between clubface and path but closer to the clubface) and curve back towards the target (as the clubface is clsoed to the path).

P.s divot wise, a divot should occur after you strike the ball and since the ball is at the side you'll be swinging on an arc. If you accept that then it follows that the divot will be pointing in a slightly different direction than your path as travelling in (since the clubs continuining on it's arc).


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## timchump (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*

@richy

From my understanding your shot that starts straight then fades is hit with the club face square at impact, but the swing is slightly out to in, across yourself, therefore causing the slice spin.

Your push fade/slice is casuded by the club face pointing to the right at impact with a swing that is across the path where the club face is pointing, so it may be a perfect in to in swing path or still slightly across yourself as above.

I think the cure is to strenghten your grip, closing the face a touch, and try to swing on a more in to out swing path..........? 

Justone........


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## JustOne (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



richy said:



			My bad shot either starts off dead straight and fades/slices right or is pushed right and fades/slices even further right.
		
Click to expand...

Both shots are the same shape... starting straight and fading, so check your aim, one is probably more left/right that the other.

Then combat the fade spin by moving the ball back in your stance a fraction and have the hands pressed slightly forward at address (towards the target).


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## JustOne (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Why is hotting a draw good?*



timchump said:



			I think the cure is to strenghten your grip, closing the face a touch, and try to swing on a more in to out swing path..........?
		
Click to expand...

You are right however the ball is already starting straight so we don't really want to close the clubface (which would make it start more left) so it's better to try and tweak the path (at setup) to reduce the spin.


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