# Handicap Secs - Pre-Reg Supp Card pre and post WHS



## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Hello

I'm getting a higher volume of Supplementary Cards at the moment than normal. Due to not being able to touch anything (Covid), pre-registration is done by contacting me directly (usually by e-mail). Annoyingly, I still get cards sent to me that were never pre-registered. My question is to handicap secs, are:


Under current system, will you automatically discount these scores if pre-registration has not occurred?
Under WHS, what will you do, bearing in mind the Player will already have entered the score on the system probably days before, and therefore already updated their handicap record. I don't think you can delete this score, and I don't believe England Golf wish these scores to be deleted. If that is the case, will this require chasing players, reminding them of their responsibilities, and disciplining them if they continue to put in scores without pre-registration?
In terms of the current system, although it highlights clearly pre-registration is required, Paragraph 21.6 in CONGU manual in bold), I can't seem to find if it indicates anywhere what happens when a player does not do this, and therefore should the card automatically be discarded, or is this for the discretion of the Committee? I don't want to run an Iron Fist in the slightest, especially before we move to WHS, but the headache is I want to ensure consistency and clarity, otherwise you open the door to being accused of favouritism if you treat people differently for whatever reason.

Cheers


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Not sure what system you are on but in V1 all supplementary cards are held for clearing and don’t go automatically onto the record and would be surprised if other systems don’t work the same way

ALL sups must be pre registered, if they haven’t the should not be counted. 

It shouldn’t be seen as an Iron Fist approach rather a following of the club and congus requirements. Experience shows that the minute you drop a rule/policy it comes back to bite you and some barsteward will use it against you.

Proceed with caution.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure what system you are on but in V1 all supplementary cards are held for clearing and don’t go automatically onto the record and would be surprised if other systems don’t work the same way

ALL sups must be pre registered, if they haven’t the should not be counted.

It shouldn’t be seen as an Iron Fist approach rather a following of the club and congus requirements. Experience shows that the minute you drop a rule/policy it comes back to bite you and some barsteward will use it against you.

Proceed with caution.
		
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Cheers, yes we are on Club V1, and yes, any score that goes on a players record must be authorised by me (or if in comp by comp sec). But, in terms of the current system, does the CONGU manual specifically say these scores must be discarded if not pre-registered?

Once WHS comes into play, that luxury will no longer be available to handicap secs, because players can enter their own scores into system long before the handicap sec even realises, and their handicap record updated the day after they enter the score. So, if a handicap secretary noticed this several days later, I don't think England Golf want them to simply delete this score (for one thing, the player may not immediately realise, and then play off the wrong handicap (or get confused when they check a computer / app after this is done, if they don't get the memo)


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Cheers, yes we are on Club V1, and yes, any score that goes on a players record must be authorised by me (or if in comp by comp sec). But, in terms of the current system, does the CONGU manual specifically say these scores must be discarded if not pre-registered?

Once WHS comes into play, that luxury will no longer be available to handicap secs, because players can enter their own scores into system long before the handicap sec even realises, and their handicap record updated the day after they enter the score. So, if a handicap secretary noticed this several days later, I don't think England Golf want them to simply delete this score (for one thing, the player may not immediately realise, and then play off the wrong handicap (or get confused when they check a computer / app after this is done, if they don't get the memo)
		
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My understanding under the WHS cards done at other courses still must be declared prior to play with the intention using the card for handicap purposes.

Currently scores must be registered Section 4 - 21 makes this very clear. When V1 released the ability for individuals to input sup scores Section 4-21 was specifically mentioned.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My understanding under the WHS cards done at other courses still must be declared prior to play with the intention using the card for handicap purposes.

Currently scores must be registered Section 4 - 21 makes this very clear. When V1 released the ability for individuals to input sup scores Section 4-21 was specifically mentioned.
		
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Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:


I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:


I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.


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I may not have been clear. With supplementary scores, there is no input into the record before the relevant administrators accept the score and hopefully they will check that it has been registered, they should also check that a registered cards have been submitted.

When it comes to cards from away courses it will be input by the visiting club is my understanding therefore they will know if the player registered or not.

Its unfortunate that you appear to have picked up from someone not understanding or willing to follow the laid down procedures for affiliated clubs.

Look at Section 4 para 21 in the handbook for further clarification.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hello

I'm getting a higher volume of Supplementary Cards at the moment than normal. Due to not being able to touch anything (Covid), pre-registration is done by contacting me directly (usually by e-mail). Annoyingly, I still get cards sent to me that were never pre-registered. My question is to handicap secs, are:


Under current system, will you automatically discount these scores if pre-registration has not occurred?
Under WHS, what will you do, bearing in mind the Player will already have entered the score on the system probably days before, and therefore already updated their handicap record. I don't think you can delete this score, and I don't believe England Golf wish these scores to be deleted. If that is the case, will this require chasing players, reminding them of their responsibilities, and disciplining them if they continue to put in scores without pre-registration?
In terms of the current system, although it highlights clearly pre-registration is required, Paragraph 21.6 in CONGU manual in bold), I can't seem to find if it indicates anywhere what happens when a player does not do this, and therefore should the card automatically be discarded, or is this for the discretion of the Committee? I don't want to run an Iron Fist in the slightest, especially before we move to WHS, but the headache is I want to ensure consistency and clarity, otherwise you open the door to being accused of favouritism if you treat people differently for whatever reason.

Cheers
		
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We are effectively in manual mode at present due to the PSI terminals being out of commission due to Covid-19 restrictions in our club. We use Club2000 V1 so the HowDidIDo function for supplementary cards has yet to be delivered. Since taking over as Handicap Sec. I have written and published the process for supplementary cards and we use a list in the shop for pre-registration or an email to an ID we have set up specifically. The cards are returned via the shop and a suitable pause or photographed and attached to an email.

In these times I have tried to be reasonable and where a problem has arisen gone back to the player to check why it wasn't registered and ensure they understand it won't be accepted in future. So far so good but it remains a bit of a struggle to get the message out.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We are effectively in manual mode at present due to the PSI terminals being out of commission due to Covid-19 restrictions in our club. We use Club2000 V1 so the HowDidIDo function for supplementary cards has yet to be delivered. Since taking over as Handicap Sec. I have written and published the process for supplementary cards and we use a list in the shop for pre-registration or an email to an ID we have set up specifically. The cards are returned via the shop and a suitable pause or photographed and attached to an email.

In these times I have tried to be reasonable and where a problem has arisen gone back to the player to check why it wasn't registered and ensure they understand it won't be accepted in future. So far so good but it remains a bit of a struggle to get the message out.
		
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You might not yet wish to go down this route, but sups can now be entered via the HDID app, hope your transfer goes well.


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## jim8flog (Aug 6, 2020)

Q1 It is a requirement now and with the WHS that rounds *must *be preregistered so if that has not been done do not accept them.

Q2 We use a mix of an APP via Intelliegent Golf and signing the book. In both circumstances the card has to be returned and scores have to processed by an appropriate person before they go a player's handicap record.

We have a clearly defined process for submitting supplementary cards both in the registration book (which has tear out sheets so a player cannot sign the next day) and on our handicaps notice board.

The IG app uses a time code so a player cannot enter after their booked tee time.


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:


I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.


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Where would they be able to add the score into the system? This is what I get on my V1 app currently as there’s no competition going on, so wouldn’t be able to add a supplementary.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Where would they be able to add the score into the system? This is what I get on my V1 app currently as there’s no competition going on, so wouldn’t be able to add a supplementary.
		
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Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You might not yet wish to go down this route, but sups can now be entered via the HDID app, hope your transfer goes well.
		
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Thanks - it was a difficult birth but Committee and software now doing well!

I have enabled the functionality so will test it before implementing fully.

PS How do you get notified of new functionality being released?


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Thanks - it was a difficult birth but Committee and software now doing well!

I have enabled the functionality so will test it before implementing fully.

PS How do you get notified of new functionality being released?
		
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Usually as a pops up when sign on and on the latest news on the My Home page. If you need to ask anything the live chat is the fastest way if it’s a quick and simple issue.


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.
		
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Ok. I didn’t know that was a function as Swango kept referring to it and nothing that could be shown on the app. I don’t think that anyone of us don’t understand that you should/must still register the round beforehand.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly. 

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?
		
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That was not how it was explained at our seminar, if you are correct, I see the problem

going to spend a while going through this

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

to see if it sheds some light on the matter. If you beat me to it would be grateful of a heads up - only 121 pages to go.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That was not how it was explained at our seminar, if you are correct, I see the problem

going to spend a while going through this

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

to see if it sheds some light on the matter. If you beat me to it would be grateful of a heads up - only 121 pages to go.
		
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I had some dialogue with England Golf on a related matter, but not the same. Basically, my question was "what if I find out, under WHS, a player has entered a score for handicap using an app, I find out days later this has been done, but there is no trace of a scorecard to check. Can I delete the score, if they binned the card and there is no evidence of it? The answer was "No. You cannot refuse a score which is being returned for handicap". 

So, if I cannot refuse a score with no way of checking it using a scorecard, I suspect I cannot refuse a score that was not pre-registered?


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?
		
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Just done a quick look and found the following under WHS rules

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before theplayerstartstheround,and
l AccordingtotherequirementsorconditionsestablishedbytheHandicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Page 29


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

I think the

Player is required

and

The Committee may

will rely on the Player being informed and following the WHS Handicap rules


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just done a quick look and found the following under WHS rules

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before theplayerstartstheround,and
l AccordingtotherequirementsorconditionsestablishedbytheHandicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Page 29
		
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Yes, I appreciate that they must pre-register. However, I am not convinced that if they do not, you are encouraged to delete their score. See my previous point, players can effectively NOT hand in a card, but the score should not be refused. 

I suspect England Golf will encourage players to be penalised with disciplinary procedures for these breaches, rather than simply deleting a score, that may well have been entered days or weeks ago.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, if I cannot refuse a score with no way of checking it using a scorecard, I suspect I cannot refuse a score that was not pre-registered?
		
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I think these are two completely different matters.

The rules for electronic entry being acceptable have changed to allow it, the rule insisting preregistration have not as far as I can see.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think these are two completely different matters.

The rules for electronic entry being acceptable have changed to allow it, the rule insisting preregistration have not as far as I can see.
		
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Well, if it is acceptable to simply delete a score if it wasn't pre-registered, then that solves my problem.

I was just concerned that we shouldn't do that. I'd also be worried if, say I was away for a few weeks, and a player entered many scores, resulting in a significantly different handicap, and played in comps. Then, I come along, delete those supplementary scores that were not pre registered, then it is shown the players handicap changes significantly, and different to what he was playing with in comps. Seems a bit of a minefield


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, if it is acceptable to simply delete a score if it wasn't pre-registered, then that solves my problem.

I was just concerned that we shouldn't do that. I'd also be worried if, say I was away for a few weeks, and a player entered many scores, resulting in a significantly different handicap, and played in comps. Then, I come along, delete those supplementary scores that were not pre registered, then it is shown the players handicap changes significantly, and different to what he was playing with in comps. Seems a bit of a minefield
		
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Your right, it is a minefield and I suspect, like me your at a proprietary club and an unpaid volunteer . You need a good HC committee around you who understand and can assist when people are away. My committee is Me then a member from the three main sections with the junior organisers input when needed.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your right, it is a minefield and I suspect, like me your at a proprietary club and an unpaid volunteer . You need a good HC committee around you who understand and can assist when people are away. My committee is Me then a member from the three main sections with the junior organisers input when needed.
		
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Sounds almost exactly like my club. And, with ridiculously cheap membership, members are very much casual golfers who like to play a bit if nothing better on. Not like an expensive club, where members are very much invested in golf and more likely to understand the ins and outs, or willing to find out. So, spoon feeding isn't even good enough for some members, so I envisage some headaches when some of them start playing with a WHS app and putting in their scores, then me having to chase to see what is going on. 

It would be a great time to resign


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

*Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register*.
		
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Sorry for being dim - but if you sign in why doesn't that count as registration? Won't the system flag a score as outstanding if it isn't subsequently entered?


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## ger147 (Aug 7, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Sorry for being dim - but if you sign in why doesn't that count as registration? Won't the system flag a score as outstanding if it isn't subsequently entered?
		
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You could sign in after your round and then enter a score. It doesn't satisfy the requirement that you must declare in advance your intention to submit a supplementary score.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.
		
Click to expand...




ger147 said:



			You could sign in after your round and then enter a score. It doesn't satisfy the requirement that you must declare in advance your intention to submit a supplementary score.
		
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 The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.
		
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Not noticed this, where does it record posting time


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## jim8flog (Aug 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?
		
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 The book says
(iv) The Handicap Committee *should* ensure a submitted score is posted to a
player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

Although I have only had a quick skim I do not remember anything about players inputting their own scores being a requirement

The book says

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before the player starts the round, and
l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.
		
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Hmm. What says you don’t go out and play a round and once finished you’re happy with your round, sign in, and then a minute later add your score? So just doing everything retrospectively. Or am I reading/understanding this completely wrong?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The book says
(iv) The Handicap Committee *should* ensure a submitted score is posted to a
player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

Although I have only had a quick skim I do not remember anything about players inputting their own scores being a requirement

The book says

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before the player starts the round, and
l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.
		
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Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:


Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)
Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not noticed this, where does it record posting time
		
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Under date signed in,  on the Supplementary Score Approve/Reject Page


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Hmm. What says you don’t go out and play a round and once finished you’re happy with your round, sign in, and then a minute later add your score? So just doing everything retrospectively. Or am I reading/understanding this completely wrong?
		
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As I said in my original post the time score entry is also recorded. I'm anyone determined enough could just delay when they enter the score,  but the manual system also has that floor.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, *I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.*

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:


Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)
Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial
		
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If you use the technology correcting then you must have signed in before posting a score.  Simply make clear any penalty for abusing this, then I would expect non-compliance to be minimal.  The penalty would need to include forfeiture of any prize monies earned as a result of abuse.  I would hope that a report of supplimentary scores posted will be available, so such scores can be checked regularly for compliance.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			If you use the technology correcting then you must have signed in before posting a score.  Simply make clear any penalty for abusing this, then I would expect non-compliance to be minimal.  The penalty would need to include forfeiture of any prize monies earned as a result of abuse.  I would hope that a report of supplimentary scores posted will be available, so such scores can be checked regularly for compliance.
		
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So, that may be the answer, which I'd welcome other Committee viewpoints to ensure I don't go rogue:

Under Current System:
Round not pre-registered, do not accept the score. Final decision

Under WHS:
Round not pre-registered,  do not delete the score. However, issue a warning and if happens again, discipline player.

If that is the case, what sort of discipline are we talking about? For example, banning a player from 3 competitions might be a big penalty for a regular competition player, but may be a very light penalty to someone who plays about 3 comps a year. Also, I can imagine disciplinary actions on players work quite well at expensive members clubs, as golfers invest more money, and probably more time in golf. At my club, membership is dirt cheap and so golf is often secondary in members lives and they have bigger priorities. I can imagine banning a player from 3 comps would have the reaction of "whatever, I'll just knock it round with my mates when I get a bit of time"

So, simply deleting their score would actually be the easiest thing to do for consistency (like not accepting under current system). But, maybe that means myself, or the comp sec, needs to check all potential supplementary score inputs for players in a competition are checked before closing the comp, so a player's handicap can be verified and a prize winner is not potentially playing off the wrong handicap.


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## ger147 (Aug 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.
		
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It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.
		
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I agree with your point, it worries me that technology will allow players to do something extreme like that. There will probably be ways to try and catch them out, but it involves procedures Committees previously didn't need to be concerned about.

Signing in at club is not really a good option at our place either. We have no pro, staff who know nothing about golf (they don't even know what a temporary green is when asked) and an owner who is not a golfer, so doesn't really appreciate the admin side of things when trying to run a Golf Committee. So, a sign in book is of little value, as it would either go missing or players would finish round, sign in and enter score without any questioning from staff. Automatic registration at least gives time stamps, but as you say, I'm unsure how you stop a player from simply sitting on their backside at home and just make scores up, signing in a few hours before. It could take balls or stupidity on their part, but it would require me to actually know that was happening, and unless I was atr the club at that time and knew the player, how would I ever know it was a fake round.


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## jim8flog (Aug 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:


Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)
Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial
		
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In one respect I cannot help you only quote what is in the book -   we have IG 

Within IG there is no facility for a player to enter their own Supplementary Scores on to their handicap record as far as I am aware and if there is we have not implemented it . They can enter the scores via the IG app but like scorecards the scores have to be verified/processed by an appropriate person first.

As already said the IG app time codes pre-registration such that it cannot be done after a players booked tee time. You can only use the app within WiFi range of the office.

If you have players not pre-registering when the WHS then you must delete the score. 
When it comes to the comp it could simply be reopened and the players handicap altered accordingly and closed to produce a new result. 

The need to register your intention to play a Supplementary Score round has been in for donkey's years and if a player is willing to ignore the rules..............


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			In one respect I cannot help you only quote what is in the book -   we have IG

Within IG there is no facility for a player to enter their own Supplementary Scores on to their handicap record as far as I am aware and if there is we have not implemented it . They can enter the scores via the IG app but like scorecards the scores have to be verified/processed by an appropriate person first.

As already said the IG app time codes pre-registration such that it cannot be done after a players booked tee time. You can only use the app within WiFi range of the office.

*If you have players not pre-registering when the WHS then you must delete the score.
When it comes to the comp it could simply be reopened and the players handicap altered accordingly and closed to produce a new result.*

The need to register your intention to play a Supplementary Score round has been in for donkey's years and if a player is willing to ignore the rules..............
		
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Thanks

In the first bold sentence above, that effectively answers my question, except I am unsure England Golf would recommend this (although, if they include it in the WHS manual, problem solved)

In the second bold sentence above, if the new result changes the winners after competition closed first time, will this have a big issue? I suspect not, if terms of competition state competition closed after trophy has been awarded (which could be months away at prize giving), given the wording of 5A (7) in Rules of Golf


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 7, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.
		
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You credit your pro shop staff with more nowse than I would ours.  I am somewhat confused though how this could happen in competitions surely you have a record of start times in competitions and the software records both sign in and score posted,  so you should easily be able to nip that in the bud. You might also want to warn your members that you would seek legal proceedings against anyone committing fraud in this way.


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## jim8flog (Aug 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Thanks

In the first bold sentence above, that effectively answers my question, except I am unsure England Golf would recommend this (although, if they include it in the WHS manual, problem solved)

In the second bold sentence above, if the new result changes the winners after competition closed first time, will this have a big issue? I suspect not, if terms of competition state competition closed after trophy has been awarded (which could be months away at prize giving), given the wording of 5A (7) in Rules of Golf
		
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We have to open, amend and close our competitions occasionally to produce a new result. E.g. a few weeks ago one player was shown on the bottom of the result as N/A due to lack of handicap. When I checked with him a few days later turned out to be a Country Member with a CDH number, with another home club and he went from N/A to 1st place.


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## ger147 (Aug 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			You credit your pro shop staff with more nowse than I would ours.  I am somewhat confused though how this could happen in competitions surely you have a record of start times in competitions and the software records both sign in and score posted,  so you should easily be able to nip that in the bud. You might also want to warn your members that you would seek legal proceedings against anyone committing fraud in this way.
		
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Legal proceedings? Aye, OK 🤣🤣

Yes the system records sign in times and score entry times. In real life, like most golf clubs I presume, the start sheet doesn't always reflect who actually plays a comp and when they tee off  e.g. late withdrawals, other players taking their place etc. We also have Wednesday medals where the tee is not reserved for the competition so there is the tee booking sheet but no indication on the booking whether you are playing in the comp or not.

The issue started when we stopped signing in and paying £3 in the pro shop and moved to signing in via the computer terminal on HDID and paying the £3 that way. Initial issues with terminals not working, sign in not being available, not deducting the correct comp fees, two's entry money etc. All the stuff you would expect but this also made members aware that it was possible to sign in after a comp instead of before.

Then with Covid-19, comps restarted while the clubhouse was closed so members were encouraged to sign in for comps and enter scores on their own mobile devices.

If I use myself as an example, I signed in after I played instead of before on 2 occasions as the comp wasn't set up properly on HDID to allow sign in during the initial switch over. Since Covid-19, I played in 1 Wednesday medal but forgot to sign in beforehand and didn't realise till I was finished and went to put my score in. No probs, signed in then entered my score straight afterwards.

I'm not a cheat, never have been and never will be. I only responded to your comment that the new process is far better than a book based system for Supplementary scores. IMO it's absolutely not. It's wide open to be abused in ways that a properly run and administered book based system is not.

But it's just my opinion, you are free to hold a differnet one 👍🏻


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2020)

Slightly confused - have we moved on to comps or still doing sups.


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