# Intermediate Fees



## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2016)

Are they fair? I don't think so. I am fully aware of why some clubs have them, but should they really be offering cheap as chips golf to over 18's who can, and are, earning more money than some members?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2016)

Going from junior fees to full fees is a heck of a jump, particularly when most 18 yr olds are not earning much. This helps keep them at the club until their earning power increases. Makes sense to me. Can't be many 18yr olds out earning 30 yr olds I wouldn't have thought.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm 23 and pay way under half of a full membership fee at the moment. Without this I'd probably struggle to play at a half decent course.

I don't get paid anywhere near what a 30 year old does, I'm not on bad money just not enough at the moment. 
Ive also got to fork up somewhere in the region of 20,000 for a house deposit. 
Add a new car needed for work and petrol money getting to work each month it all adds up. 

I think they're perfectly fair and without them there'd be a lot less younger members.


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## fundy (Oct 25, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			I'm 23 and pay way under half of a full membership fee at the moment. Without this I'd probably struggle to play at a half decent course.

I don't get paid anywhere near what a 30 year old does, I'm not on bad money just not enough at the moment. 
Ive also got to fork up somewhere in the region of 20,000 for a house deposit. 
Add a new car needed for work and petrol money getting to work each month it all adds up. 

I think they're perfectly fair and without them there'd be a lot less younger members.
		
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does the 30 year old not have to pay for a house, car, petrol etc?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2016)

Yes, but they are likely to have made their way further up the payscale. That's inevitable.


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## fundy (Oct 25, 2016)

At the end of the day you can argue this many times, there will be those in their early 20s who can afford it comfortably and those that cant. This will be the same for 30 year olds, 40 year olds etc.

Defining what is fair is a bit harder, not so sure fair is why it is done but with a view to getting more younger people playing the game


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

fundy said:



			does the 30 year old not have to pay for a house, car, petrol etc?
		
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Not once did I say they didn't. 

Surely it's fairly obvious that on average a 30 year old earns more than someone in their early 20's?


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## fundy (Oct 25, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			Not once did I say they didn't. 

Surely it's fairly obvious that on average a 30 year old earns more than someone in their early 20's?
		
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I know several in their early 20s who earn decent chunks, have no commitments and hence have huge disposable incomes compared to mates in their 30s who have a house a wife kids etc and have no disposable income

Is is fair that the 20 somethings can afford to play golf and the 30 somethings cant?

Basically its means testing based on age, which will work for some and against others


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			Not once did I say they didn't. 

Surely it's fairly obvious that on average a 30 year old earns more than someone in their early 20's?
		
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Not really. Some in their early 20's will be on a packet. Anyone in computers for a start.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2016)

It's a blunt instrument, using age, but it is easier than actual means testing which would be a nonsense for golf clubs. On the whole it will work better than other options of measuring if you can afford to pay or not.


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## Dasit (Oct 25, 2016)

Most my friends who are also in their 20s don't join clubs, just pay and play from teeofftimes on cheap deals.

Clubs are not worth the value even at intermediate prices. Â£750 is a lot of money to someone in their mid 20s.


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## fundy (Oct 25, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a blunt instrument, using age, but it is easier than actual means testing which would be a nonsense for golf clubs. On the whole it will work better than other options of measuring if you can afford to pay or not.
		
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a little devils advocate, but why should a leisure activity be means tested?


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2016)

stokie_93 said:



			I'm 23 and pay way under half of a full membership fee at the moment. Without this I'd probably struggle to play at a half decent course.

I don't get paid anywhere near what a 30 year old does, I'm not on bad money just not enough at the moment. 
Ive also got to fork up somewhere in the region of 20,000 for a house deposit. 
Add a new car needed for work and petrol money getting to work each month it all adds up. 

I think they're perfectly fair and without them there'd be a lot less younger members.
		
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Why a "new" car? Most people have to put petrol in their cars to get themselves to work.  I'm not saying that you're not finding it a struggle, jesus H, a lot of us are, but why should under 30's be getting preferential treatment?


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2016)

Should part timers be getting a reduction for instance?


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Not really. Some in their early 20's will be on a packet. Anyone in computers for a start.
		
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I actually work as an IT Resourcer. I can tell right now I have never had a 20 year old earn more than a 30 year old.


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2016)

Maybe, but a 20 YO in computers will be on more than a 30 stacking shelves at the supermarket.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Why a "new" car? Most people have to put petrol in their cars to get themselves to work.  I'm not saying that you're not finding it a struggle, jesus H, a lot of us are, but why should under 30's be getting preferential treatment?
		
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my car isn't new it was a figure of speech. I had to buy a pretty reliable car as 2 hours of my day is spent commuting. 

People that come come out of uni after spending 3 years in a city with no car, no money & no savings are going to have to get stuff initially to set them up. For example a house, car etc. People that come out of uni just don't have the amount of experience a 30 year old does to earn the same wage. 

The only anomalies I find at people my age are people that have taken on apprenticeships (something I wish I did) and have worked there way up for 7 years ish. 

In my opinion the intermediate fee is a great help but I agree that it should have a limit somewhere. Capping it at 25 would be reasonable in my head.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2016)

fundy said:



			a little devils advocate, but why should a leisure activity be means tested?
		
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It isn't. I presume you mean why should this category exist, why should some pay less than others. It is a commercial decision. Clubs do it because they know they would lose too many members of that age group. Keep them a few years at this level and then hopefully they will turn into full members. Lose them now and they may never come back or they may return to another club.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe, but a 20 YO in computers will be on more than a 30 stacking shelves at the supermarket.
		
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Of course they would but that's off their own back isn't it really.


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## Val (Oct 25, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe, but a 20 YO in computers will be on more than a 30 stacking shelves at the supermarket.
		
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But a 30 year old shelf stacker will be on more than a 20 year old 2nd year apprentice joiner/electrician/brickie


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## Paperboy (Oct 25, 2016)

I'll probably be going to social membership at my place, for a couple of reasons.

1. I've got the shanks and still not sorted the problem, which with a couple of injuries meaning I can't practice. Not been able to resolve. I've hated golf this year.

2. Hopefully buying my a flat in the new year so probably won't be able to afford it. I'm in my mid to late 30's.


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## Val (Oct 25, 2016)

Our club introduced intermediate fees for 18-24 year olds 2 years agao and gained 40 members, without this catagory that revenue would be lost.


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## Kellfire (Oct 25, 2016)

Don't people understand averages?

The _average_ 30 year old earns more than the _average_ 23 year old.

Pointing out how you know exceptions is laughable and against the point.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Don't people understand averages?

The _average_ 30 year old earns more than the _average_ 23 year old.

Pointing out how you know exceptions is laughable and against the point.
		
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Glad someone sees this Kell.


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## GB72 (Oct 25, 2016)

There are all sorts of inequalities in club membership costs but it would be far too complicated to even think of a system that is fair for all. 

Simple fact is that the most 'hard done by' is the working golfer. Maybe gets one or 2 rounds in a week but pays the most as this tends to have to be at weekends. Working women golfers probably get an even worse deal as most of their events are arranged on week days. Then you have senior discounts for the people who use the course most. 

The only way to be fair to everyone is to charge a flat fee across the board.


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## patricks148 (Oct 25, 2016)

Personally I don't agree with it.

We introduced it a couple of years ago and its half the normal membership with no joining fee. don't get me wrong it it was just available to Juniors moving up, no problem. 

We had a lack of people playing comps, so this was thought would encourage more new members that would then playing the club competition.

The first year, no increase in participation of any comps. all it was used for was lots of signing on of guests and half left after the first year. most of those guys were also still members of another club.

Just cheap membership for a few guys.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 25, 2016)

My club has changed it's intermediate to 18-30, with diminishing differences to full subs as you get closer to the 30 mark. The way I see it is you try and encourage the 20's to continue to play after being a junior you have a better chance of a fuller membership once they are past the 30 mark.

I also don't buy the " it's so hard in my 20's, you 30's and over have it all". It's life, get over it and accept you have youth on your side.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2016)

Val said:



			Our club introduced intermediate fees for 18-24 year olds 2 years agao and gained 40 members, without this catagory that revenue would be lost.
		
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Same with us

We struggled to attract people between the age of 21-30 because they couldn't afford the full fees - we introduced the intermediate incremental membership fees and the level of 18-30 went from 2/3 members to now over 70 and the waiting list has 30 of them - all have also paid the full joining fee


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2016)

I look at this from a quite different perspective than what has been posted here on this so far.  I take the view that if I, as a full member, am happy to pay what I pay, then I should not be that bothered or indeed resentful about what the club asks younger members to pay.  Their membership keeps my subs increases down.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 25, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I also don't buy the " it's so hard in my 20's, you 30's and over have it all". It's life, get over it and accept you have youth on your side.
		
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I was never under it but thanks for your insight.


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## TheDiablo (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm 29 now and have far less disposable income then I did when I was 23 even though I earn more than double what I did back then. The whole story is far more than just a salary.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2016)

If the argument is do we bring in 30 intermediates at Â£500 instead of Â£1000, but it keeps my subs down because its Â£15000 into the club that it normally wouldn't bring in I'll take it. 

Typically, for every Â£1000 a club needs to raise its Â£2 to Â£3 on your subs. Therefore 30 members coming in on the reduced rate saves me Â£40 to Â£60... makes sense to me to take them in.

Everybody wins


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			If the argument is do we bring in 30 intermediates at Â£500 instead of Â£1000, but it keeps my subs down because its Â£15000 into the club that it normally wouldn't bring in I'll take it. 

Typically, for every Â£1000 a club needs to raise its Â£2 to Â£3 on your subs. Therefore 30 members coming in on the reduced rate saves me Â£40 to Â£60... makes sense to me to take them in.

Everybody wins
		
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+1 with you on this @Hobbit.


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## User62651 (Oct 26, 2016)

Fair point, I earn way more now than I did in my early 20s BUT I had more disposable income back then as I didn't have kids/mortgage/bills etc so golf was definitely more affordable for me back then..........and I had time to play..........and my body wasn't fooked.......

I think the young and the old are the only ones that make the most of their memberships, those in the 30-50 range generally can't play as much as they'd like.

However dont mind at all if clubs want to offer cheaper golf for young adults, they're the future for the clubs after all. Golf Clubs I've been a member of haven't offered that reduced fee but as they've been rural Scottish clubs full membership fees have been pretty modest anyway.


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## louise_a (Oct 26, 2016)

At my club they introduced a sliding scale of fees a couple of years ago which means that you don't pay full fees until you are 35.


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## IanM (Oct 26, 2016)

Members Clubs should do whatever is most beneficial for the long term financial sustainability of the Club in the area in which they operate.  But in the context of this, fairness should be a consideration and should be agreed by the membership.

Proprietary clubs do whatever they want in order to maximise profit.  But of course, upsetting the "membership" isn't good for business either!

In my view, cheaper subs for younger members makes sense on many levels, most of the reasons are earlier in the thread.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 26, 2016)

It's worth remembering (in the light of the "gay cake" debate) that discrimination based on age is actually contrary to the equality act. Clubs can only offer these discount it they can reasonably show that they are....

 "_taking positive action to encourage or develop people in an age group that is under-represented or disadvantaged in a role or activity_".
The fact that so many clubs have a structured payment model based on age just highlights how slanted golf is towards the over 40's. Anything that can help alter the image of golf being a game for old buffers has to be a good thing!


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## IanM (Oct 26, 2016)

"taking positive action to encourage or develop people ..."

*Absolutely*... the average age of my club has fallen recently as initiatives to attract new members have kicked in.... over the past five years its gone from 63 to about 58!!  Hardly whippersnapper central!


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			It's worth remembering (in the light of the "gay cake" debate) that discrimination based on age is actually contrary to the equality act. Clubs can only offer these discount it they can reasonably show that they are....

*"taking positive action to encourage or develop people in an age group that is under-represented or disadvantaged in a role or activity".*
The fact that so many clubs have a structured payment model based on age just highlights how slanted golf is towards the over 40's. Anything that can help alter the image of golf being a game for old buffers has to be a good thing!
		
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A bit vague. Just what does this mean? Does a reduction of fees constitute this?


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2016)

Our reduction goes from 18yo to 32yo !!!! 

I brought it up at our agm and the claim was that we don't have many members in this category ( insinuation ...so theirs not many getting it anyway so don't worry your head over it), but that just reinforced my arguement, in my eyes, why then are we offering it then???? 

OOOOOO, I've had a thought. All those on "intermediate fees", seeing as there isn't many, could be barred from all major comps and teams. 

There MUST be an incentive for them to pay the full fees.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Our reduction goes from 18yo to 32yo !!!! 

I brought it up at our agm and the claim was that we don't have many members in this category ( insinuation ...so theirs not many getting it anyway so don't worry your head over it), but that just reinforced my arguement, in my eyes, why then are we offering it then???? 

OOOOOO, I've had a thought. All those on "intermediate fees", seeing as there isn't many, could be barred from all major comps and teams. 

There MUST be an incentive for them to pay the full fees.
		
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out of curiosity where are you a member at mate?


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2016)

Leek


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## jp5 (Oct 26, 2016)

Intermediate fees at the local club go up to 40 here. 

Used to be 27 but the jump was too steep and people weren't converting into full members.

Got to remember that it's getting tougher for youngsters - they reckon people in their early 30s are half as wealthy as those now in their 40s were at the same age.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37508968


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Intermediate fees at the local club go up to 40 here. 

Used to be 27 but the jump was too steep and people weren't converting into full members.

Got to remember that it's getting tougher for youngsters - they reckon people in their early 30s are half as wealthy as those now in their 40s were at the same age.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37508968

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I'm not having that. When i was starting out mortgages were at 7.5% and shot up to 15%, remember that ?????? They are getting far much more money and are on 2.5% mortgages. What with their phone contracts and TV fees that they all willingly pay out for (I have none), I am expected to subsidize their golf?????? Do the car insurance firms say...ahh what shame for them hard done to young boys and girls lets give them  a reduction? Do they nutz! So why should golf? If you can't afford it you don't do it. Simple. I want a new car like those of them on the cheap fees that are at my place but can't afford it. 
I'm sounding bitter now.


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## Hosel Fade (Oct 26, 2016)

Just to run some numbers around here.

A full membership in the area here is around 1500 at somewhere decent. A years rent in the area for a 1 bed flat will be about 7 or 8k before you think about any transport, bills, student loan repayments, taxes etc. Think how much you have to earn to have that sort of figure disposable to leisure. 

By some of the logic on here why don't we charge the retired seniors who play 4 rounds every week 3x the fees? Just being facetious there mind


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## NWJocko (Oct 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I'm not having that. When i was starting out mortgages were at 7.5% and shot up to 15%, remember that ?????? They are getting far much more money and are on 2.5% mortgages. What with their phone contracts and TV fees that they all willingly pay out for (I have none), I am expected to subsidize their golf?????? Do the car insurance firms say...ahh what shame for them hard done to young boys and girls lets give them  a reduction? Do they nutz! So why should golf? If you can't afford it you don't do it. Simple. I want a new car like those of them on the cheap fees that are at my place but can't afford it. 
I'm sounding bitter now.
		
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I think you're missing the point massively and looking at it from a selfish perspective.

Aren't they in place to support the future of the club, i.e. you don't get 15 years down the line and realise you're membership is dying off with nobody to replace them.  So, by all means tell them not to play golf now if they can't afford full fees but that may have a detrimental impact on your club further down the line.

Pretty sure they exist at my place but, tbh, I have no idea on the details of any offers, I was happy with the "deal" I was offered to be a member so I pay it, don't really care what anyone else is on.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Our reduction goes from 18yo to 32yo !!!! 

I brought it up at our agm and the claim was that we don't have many members in this category ( insinuation ...so theirs not many getting it anyway so don't worry your head over it), but that just reinforced my arguement, in my eyes, why then are we offering it then???? 

OOOOOO, I've had a thought. All those on "intermediate fees", seeing as there isn't many, could be barred from all major comps and teams. 

There MUST be an incentive for them to pay the full fees.
		
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I assume you haven't read and absorbed the many positives people have made about this catagory.

Introducing restrictions to this catagory is counter productive and would mean less income for your club.


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## Hosel Fade (Oct 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Leek
		
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I don't know many people my age who would commit to a years worth of subs as a joining fee in the current climate so I don't see it being too much of an issue for your club anyway


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

I hasten to add, if you feel that hard done by in your club then why do you stay there?


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## stokie_93 (Oct 26, 2016)

Hosel Fade said:



			I don't know many people my age who would commit to a years worth of subs as a joining fee in the current climate so I don't see it being too much of an issue for your club anyway
		
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Just seen that! Â£600 joining fee! Jesus.


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## stokie_93 (Oct 26, 2016)

Come and join Alsager if you're so outraged mate :cheers:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

The more younger members the better as far as I am concerned - and as I am happy to pay what I pay then I hold no resentments against younger folks getting it cheaper.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The more younger members the better as far as I am concerned - and as I am happy to pay what I pay then I hold no resentments against younger folks getting it cheaper.
		
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I think Hobbit nails the impact perfectly about it keeping his fees down. It reminds me of a comment a member at Hillside made when we were last out in the outing, I apologised as it was slow, he told me not to worry as all is visitors were keeping his fees down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

Val said:



			I think Hobbit nails the impact perfectly about it keeping his fees down. It reminds me of a comment a member at Hillside made when we were last out in the outing, I apologised as it was slow, he told me not to worry as all is visitors were keeping his fees down.
		
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^^^Exactly


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2016)

I think it's OK but to make up for the difference they should be made to clean the Old Codgers Clubs and do 5 hours caddying duties for them a week.   No such thing as a free lunch!


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## bluewolf (Oct 26, 2016)

Too many people spending too much time worrying about what other people are spending. If you're happy with your deal then what does it matter?


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Too many people spending too much time worrying about what other people are spending. If you're happy with your deal then what does it matter?
		
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Eggsackertly


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Are they fair? I don't think so. I am fully aware of why some clubs have them, but should they really be offering cheap as chips golf to over 18's who can, and are, earning more money than some members?
		
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Without the 'gentle increase', there would be far fewer Intermediates that stay on to become Full members!

While the age range/limit might be debatable, the object is to retain members where membership is actually decreasing!

So 'Yes' they should still have them - if that's their policy and it's working!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 26, 2016)

I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is cÂ£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards. 

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period


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## bluewolf (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is cÂ£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards. 

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period
		
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Do you think your fees have risen as a result, or have they been kept lower by bringing in more money?


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is cÂ£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards. 

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period
		
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Those in their late 20's, early 30's are probably recently married, got a family and a mortgage. Would the dutiful wife/husband accept a weekend in a caravan for a holiday rather than two weeks in Spain whilst their partner paid their fees. Then there's the comp fees and beer after the round.

If you feel strongly enough, garner support for a motion at the AGM that proposes to stop these incentives.

Be aware that if you lose those intermediates from your club, from age 18 to 30-ish, you'll probably see your own fees rise by circa Â£100 on top of whatever the annual rise will be. Then see some full members resign because of a way over inflationary increase, and you'll see your fees rise even further.

That cycyle of losing full members at Â£1600 a go might see your fees rise to well over Â£1700 to cover that shortfall.

Once a club decides to step back from their current business model that includes reduced fees when other clubs locally are still offering them...


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is cÂ£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards. 

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period
		
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Suggest it here and we'll critique it before you submit to your club.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

It's well document club membership at man many clubs is dying, numbers are down, junior sections are small or non existent. Clubs have no money, clubhouses need money spent, fees are getting higher.

If I was given a choice of losing 10 full members or gaining 10 intermediates paying less than me with no losses of membership then I know what I'd have.


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have a real issue with these intermediate fees. Full membership for 7 days is cÂ£1600 at my club and yet we still offer discounts up to 35 years old. Many of these are in the prime of their life, plenty of disposable income, well paid jobs, can use the course at prime time and paying significantly less than me and anyone from 36 upwards. 

I totally get the whole premise of trying to attract young blood and retaining juniors but this seems totally excessive. I accept that I don't have to pay the fees but it seems that most clubs around here have some form of intermediate fees. There has to be a better way of retaining and encouraging memberships without an imbalance of fees for such a long period
		
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I'd suggest that on a per/hour of use basis, you are getting far cheaper golf than almost any other members - even the Intermediates! Though 35 does seem to be a touch too high. I presume there's a sliding scale of fees, so maybe 34-35 is near full-rate.

Of course, for most 7 Day membership means 2 (or even 1) Day membership! The real 'bargain' is often 5 day membership!

It has never mattered what 'deal' others were getting. as long as I could/can justify the fees, I was/am happy!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Those in their late 20's, early 30's are probably recently married, got a family and a mortgage. Would the dutiful wife/husband accept a weekend in a caravan for a holiday rather than two weeks in Spain whilst their partner paid their fees. Then there's the comp fees and beer after the round.

If you feel strongly enough, garner support for a motion at the AGM that proposes to stop these incentives.

Be aware that if you lose those intermediates from your club, from age 18 to 30-ish, you'll probably see your own fees rise by circa Â£100 on top of whatever the annual rise will be. Then see some full members resign because of a way over inflationary increase, and you'll see your fees rise even further.

That cycyle of losing full members at Â£1600 a go might see your fees rise to well over Â£1700 to cover that shortfall.

Once a club decides to step back from their current business model that includes reduced fees when other clubs locally are still offering them...
		
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If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2016)

Val said:



			It's well document club membership at man many clubs is dying, numbers are down, junior sections are small or non existent. Clubs have no money, clubhouses need money spent, fees are getting higher.

If I was given a choice of losing 10 full members or gaining 10 intermediates paying less than me with no losses of membership then I know what I'd have.
		
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When doing a membership conf with EGU a while back they reported that clubs who introduced the intermediate membership scheme helped increase the participation of golfers between the age of 18 and 30 by up to 40% 

It certainly has helped our club and it was universally accepted with no issues from anyone. 

We found when speaking to the members arriving they were coming from clubs with smaller fees but wanted to play at our place but couldn't justify the cost - all of them have now paid the full joining fee and most over the next two years will be at the full members rate


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.
		
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As a previous head of finance for a number of years I've heard your arguments many times. I've seen a number of different schemes come and go, and I've seen several back of a fag packet amendments proposed, and occasionally passed, at AGM's.

Clubs try to maximise their revenue streams any way they can and are usually very responsive to market dynamics.

A suggestion for a change; anyone already on a scheme stays on the scheme. All new members pay full rate. Or alternatively, reduce the the differential across each band.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I'd suggest that on a per/hour of use basis, you are getting far cheaper golf than almost any other members - even the Intermediates! Though 35 does seem to be a touch too high. I presume there's a sliding scale of fees, so maybe 34-35 is near full-rate.

Of course, for most 7 Day membership means 2 (or even 1) Day membership! The real 'bargain' is often 5 day membership!

It has never mattered what 'deal' others were getting. as long as I could/can justify the fees, I was/am happy!
		
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I agree totally with the last sentence in particular and I can only ensure I have enough each year to renew. The final bracket is still Â£300-500 cheaper (can't remember the exact figure until we get the next renewal notice through). As we don't have booked tee times, I guess we get a fair slice of golf in especially in the summer although of course five day members tend to get the best deal at this time of year with deserted courses and the chance to play.

As for intermediate fees actually growing membership, and I'd definitely question 40% mentioned, I'd have to disagree. We still have a huge gulf between juniors (ending at 18) and the next biggest demographic, probably around the 30 year old. I think, and I play the biggest roll ups each weekend there are perhaps 5-10 aged around 20-30 and I would go further and suggest that even in club comps this figure is at most a further 50% at most.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap

I am sure the club would put an economical argument forward for why we have it but I'm not sure of the maths. We are almost fully subscribed at the moment and those coming in are over 35 and therefore eligible for the full whack and so if anything, losing a few paying less and getting more paying more would see more income coming in. Of course, the demographic, already older in make up will change. I understand that. However it would be a brave decision for the club to even decide to reduce the brackets, one I don't think it would be prepared to take and I would need a lot of discussions and details on membership fee income before I'd consider raising it at an AGM. It does sit uncomfortably and indeed is a topic that rears its head every renewal time and provokes some fierce opinions.
		
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What would happen at your club If you dropped the age and all those affected went elsewhere?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When doing a membership conf with EGU a while back they reported that clubs who introduced the intermediate membership scheme helped increase the participation of golfers between the age of 18 and 30 by up to 40% 

It certainly has helped our club and it was universally accepted with no issues from anyone. 

We found when speaking to the members arriving they were coming from clubs with smaller fees but wanted to play at our place but couldn't justify the cost - all of them have now paid the full joining fee and most over the next two years will be at the full members rate
		
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Will that be the end of the intermediate fees then Phil or do you see yourselves continueing to offer them?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Eggsackertly
		
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indeed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If you talk to many of those paying reduced fees, especially those in say the 30-35 bracket, they are all married already, all in well paid roles and most seemingly taking holidays abroad as well as going on some of the trips organised by members to Turkey or Spain so disposable income doesn't seem in short supply nor does the good will of their partners. It is perhaps this bracket in particular that could seemingly afford the additional charges, without too much scrimping or the family going without, the most. Look in most of their bags and they are using pretty modern equipment which also doesn't come cheap
		
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But this way of thinking would take a club down the route of means testing members or potential members.  And how do you do that?  Those with loads of money could have their accountant make it seem that they were impoverished and so they'd get reduced fees - whilst the not so well off would pay more?

No -not for me - as others have said - if I am happy to pay the full membership then I really don't care what younger (indeed any other) member pays (as long as I'm not the only one paying the full amount!).  I have to trust our board/committees to get the membership subs structure right and fair for members, and appropriate to attracting and keeping new members.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 26, 2016)

100% behind them, I could not have afforded a membership without them at South Winch.

As essential as flexible memberships.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But this way of thinking would take a club down the route of means testing members or potential members.  And how do you do that?  Those with loads of money could have their accountant make it seem that they were impoverished and so they'd get reduced fees - whilst the not so well off would pay more?

No -not for me - as others have said - if I am happy to pay the full membership then I really don't care what younger (indeed any other) member pays (as long as I'm not the only one paying the full amount!).  I have to trust our board/committees to get the membership subs structure right and fair for members, and appropriate to attracting and keeping new members.
		
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I was merely answering the point. All those still on reduced rates seem to have new(ish) gear, go away with the family and go on overseas trips organised by members so it is clear that disposable income isn't an issue for most. No mention of means testing and surely it'll come down to a simple person by person choice as to whether they could afford it annually and if not, look at other clubs as an alternative.

The bottom line is simple and so I'm not going to carry on answering, is that the club won't change these fees and while I disagree with them particularly the final 30-35 bracket, there is no point worrying about things I can't change. Life's too short. I was merely adding my thoughts to the debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Will that be the end of the intermediate fees then Phil or do you see yourselves continueing to offer them?
		
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We will continue to offer them - they are now membership categories and have shown to lower the age of the golfer in our place . As previously said we went from 2/3 members between the age of 18-30 to now over 70 members. We also offer reductions to people who are over the age of 70 and have a certain of years membership behind them. I expect we will have another 20 more 20-30 joining in the next couple of weeks off the waiting list


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We will continue to offer them - they are now membership categories and have shown to lower the age of the golfer in our place . As previously said we went from 2/3 members between the age of 18-30 to now over 70 members. We also offer reductions to people who are over the age of 70 and have a certain of years membership behind them. I expect we will have another 20 more 20-30 joining in the next couple of weeks off the waiting list
		
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All good stuff, nice to hear about clubs doing well from it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			All good stuff, nice to hear about clubs doing well from it.
		
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Our old membership secretary won an EGU Award because of the innovations he brought to the club to increase our membership levels especially at the young adult age and they are great for the club 

You will obviously get the odd grumble from members with the "they pay less than me to play the course" without having the foresight to understand the reasons why - of course they would be the first to throw the teddies firmly out of the cot if overall fees went up due to not having a full membership


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our old membership secretary won an EGU Award because of the innovations he brought to the club to increase our membership levels especially at the young adult age and they are great for the club 

You will obviously get the odd grumble from members with the "they pay less than me to play the course" without having the foresight to understand the reasons why - of course they would be the first to throw the teddies firmly out of the cot if overall fees went up due to not having a full membership
		
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We're struggling badly and a few "old and bold" on the committee are blocking a few speculative incentives to get new members in and it's a shame when you hear other clubs doing well.


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## Raesy92 (Oct 26, 2016)

There are about 8 of us that play at decent course 20 mins from where we stay. All started on the 'Youth' membership which stops once you are 25. 

This is my last year of having the reduction in fee's and if I hadn't been getting it I would have probably moved somewhere closer that's not quite as good. 3 or 4 of my mates are a year or two older so all now paying full subs because they started off on a youth membership and have enjoyed the club enough to continue to play there. Most likely we will all be members for the foreseeable future.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We're struggling badly and a few "old and bold" on the committee are blocking a few speculative incentives to get new members in and it's a shame when you hear other clubs doing well.
		
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How easy is it to get people to stand against the old and bold in a vote?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2016)

Val said:



			How easy is it to get people to stand against the old and bold in a vote?
		
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It's a very tight committee and in the past they'd struggled to get volunteers to get involved, those that did get involved at the time have become entrenched and they know what's best! we change/propose new members to the committee every 2 years (if vacancies become available).

Putting myself forward in 2017 for any role to get involved.


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## Val (Oct 26, 2016)

Hope your successful then. Clubs need people with progressive ideas.


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## TheDiablo (Oct 26, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree totally with the last sentence in particular and I can only ensure I have enough each year to renew. The final bracket is still Â£300-500 cheaper (can't remember the exact figure until we get the next renewal notice through). As we don't have booked tee times, I guess we get a fair slice of golf in especially in the summer although of course five day members tend to get the best deal at this time of year with deserted courses and the chance to play.

As for intermediate fees actually growing membership, and I'd definitely question 40% mentioned, I'd have to disagree. We still have a huge gulf between juniors (ending at 18) and the next biggest demographic, probably around the 30 year old. I think, and I play the biggest roll ups each weekend there are perhaps 5-10 aged around 20-30 and I would go further and suggest that even in club comps this figure is at most a further 50% at most.
		
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You seem to have an awful lot of tosh to say for someone that claims its doesn't matter to him what deal others are getting! 

I know and play with different groups of friends all between 28-35. I'd say there's around 12 guys I play with throughout the course of the year that would call themselves regular golfers. 2 of those are members at clubs. Says a lot about the perception of club membership culture for my generation even with intermediate offers. 

I personally miss competitive sport and am likely to join sonewhere next year (definitely would if the best local club dropped its joining fee!) but I'm still very much in the minority for my age group even with these offers.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2016)

I don't really think about what others pay. I don't even know if my club has an intermediary price band. Juniors yes, it's really geared into teaching and developing kids. That is one of the reasons I joined, I have a 4 yr old boy, hopefully he will join me out on the course. 
I joined my club, because it offered the best or closest to what I wanted from a club. It was expensive but I went full in and took share holder position because I was taking the long view. Green fees are high, which is good the rules are policed and enforced and it has a nice Golf Club feel. I know what I need to pay every year, I sacrifice what I deem to be less important, such as car rental, restaurants and holidays abroad (1 is enough - hate cruises and already spent a life time on planes)


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2016)

ScienceBoy said:



			100% behind them, I could not have afforded a membership without them at South Winch.

As essential as flexible memberships.
		
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So when you come of age will you be paying the full fees? And before you answer that, do you think that you will have more / less / about the same disposable income?


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2016)

Raesy92 said:



			There are about 8 of us that play at decent course 20 mins from where we stay. All started on the 'Youth' membership *which stops once you are 25. *

This is my last year of having the reduction in fee's and if I hadn't been getting it I would have probably moved somewhere closer that's not quite as good. 3 or 4 of my mates are a year or two older so all now paying full subs because they started off on a youth membership and have enjoyed the club enough to continue to play there. Most likely we will all be members for the foreseeable future.
		
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I was thinking this would be the right age to stop these fees.


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## bluewolf (Oct 27, 2016)

Ok, as an example....

My club offer free memberships to under 14's. This allowed me to bring my son down to play. He had never shown any interest in golf previously, but after playing for 5 months, getting his 1st official handicap, and winning his 1st official competition, he is now addicted. Next year we'll have to pay for a junior membership. Who knows, he may just end up as a lifetime member? The Club has invested in my son, and that investment may just pay off handsomely.....


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

Personally I think 25 is too young although I do think a stepped increase to a full fee at 30 is a good idea therefore the jump from 29-30 in cash terms being less harsh than say a large discount to full fee at 25


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2016)

I'd be ok with anyone under 16 having free use of the course, as long as one of their guardians were a member. Seems a great idea.


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## bluewolf (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Personally I think 25 is too young although I do think a stepped increase to a full fee at 30 is a good idea therefore the jump from 29-30 in cash terms being less harsh than say a large discount to full fee at 25
		
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What's the average age of a 1st time home buyer these days? Probably nearer 30 than 20. Average age people get married? Probably the same. The World has changed since we were young (and I'm only 42). I suspect the age thresholds reflect current society.


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Personally I think 25 is too young although I do think a stepped increase to a full fee at 30 is a good idea therefore the jump from 29-30 in cash terms being less harsh than say a large discount to full fee at 25
		
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By the age of 25 you should have your priorities sorted, and know how to buget to ensure that you can act them out. Jesus, I'm still doing it now!!! I've not been to the pub for six months!


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## bluewolf (Oct 27, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			I'd be ok with anyone under 16 having free use of the course, as long as one of their guardians were a member. Seems a great idea.
		
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In full agreement. The Junior section at my Club are fantastic. A real credit to their parents/guardians.


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## BoadieBroadus (Oct 27, 2016)

when our club introduced intermediate I was one of the members who suddenly benefitted from a reduction. it covered ages 20-35.

how many total members did we have in that 15 year age bracket? 3.

having introduced the intermediate rates and extended it to 40 we now have a much healthier membership in that bracket which makes it much easier for people to play with more peers, fill out teams etc. even provide captains /committee members in 15 years etc

it has clearly worked to the benefit both socially and financially of the club, as it was designed to. but even at the time there were members who complained about the advantage we were receiving.

if you are busy bitterly complaining about what your intermediates are paying and also complaining about how few there are in your club. then maybe the two are related.

possibly they don't want to join a club where middle aged men gather to complain about how terrible everything is and would rather join somewhere else.


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2016)

We've increased membership this season by 50! Not many in the intermediate bit though.


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			By the age of 25 you should have your priorities sorted, and know how to buget to ensure that you can act them out. Jesus, I'm still doing it now!!! I've not been to the pub for six months!
		
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Meanwhile in the real world many at 25 haven't even given buying a house a thought never mind a priority and those that have are now so up to their eyes in other priorities golf club membership is possibly well down the list of priorities 

You haven't said anywhere but what age are you?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 27, 2016)

Crazyface said:



 

We've increased membership this season by 50! Not many in the intermediate bit though.
		
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So what's your issue?


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## stokie_93 (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Meanwhile in the real world many at 25 haven't even given buying a house a thought never mind a priority and those that have are now so up to their eyes in other priorities golf club membership is possibly well down the list of priorities 

You haven't said anywhere but what age are you?
		
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Should try having a 23 year old girlfriend and tell me not having a house isn't a priority. Jesus :rofl:


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## MendieGK (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			Meanwhile in the real world many at 25 haven't even given buying a house a thought never mind a priority and those that have are now so up to their eyes in other priorities golf club membership is possibly well down the list of priorities 

You haven't said anywhere but what age are you?
		
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I disagree with this, in the real world, if people stopped going to Uni for the sake of it an grew a career from the bottom, many more would have a house.

I am 29, a member of 2 golf courses, own a house and have also done a lot of things i have always wanted to do. i dont earn a fortune, but i'm sensible.

I currently benefit from intermediate fees, but the step up in cost has been consistent throughout the period so that when the time comes i need to pay for full membership, i can. 

I dont earn fortunes, i am just sensible.

However, if the debate is going to come up, what about senior fees? they probably play the course more than any of us, but get it cheaper.

you're right, it is all about priorities.


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I disagree with this, in the real world, if people stopped going to Uni for the sake of it an grew a career from the bottom, many more would have a house.

I am 29, a member of 2 golf courses, own a house and have also done a lot of things i have always wanted to do. i dont earn a fortune, but i'm sensible.

I currently benefit from intermediate fees, but the step up in cost has been consistent throughout the period so that when the time comes i need to pay for full membership, i can. 

I dont earn fortunes, i am just sensible.

However, if the debate is going to come up, what about senior fees? they probably play the course more than any of us, but get it cheaper.

you're right, it is all about priorities.
		
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I get your sentiment and don't disagree at all, my boy is 21 and now a time served joiner but even he has no idea what his financial commitments will be like in 3.1/2 years time. I would suggest your mindset is an exception rather than the rule. My boys attitude is indicative of the attitudes of many (not all) 21-25 year olds I know. Live in the now they say, the future is just that, the future.

Modern life I'm afraid.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I disagree with this, in the real world, if people stopped going to Uni for the sake of it an grew a career from the bottom, many more would have a house.

I am 29, a member of 2 golf courses, own a house and have also done a lot of things i have always wanted to do. i dont earn a fortune, but i'm sensible.

I currently benefit from intermediate fees, but the step up in cost has been consistent throughout the period so that when the time comes i need to pay for full membership, i can. 

I dont earn fortunes, i am just sensible.

However, if the debate is going to come up, *what about senior fees? they probably play the course more than any of us, but get it cheaper.*

you're right, it is all about priorities.
		
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I don't know any clubs that give discounts for Seniors.  The Senior section in my club have provided many improvements around the course and have been very active in supporting Juniors.


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't know any clubs that give discounts for Seniors.  The Senior section in my club have provided many improvements around the course and have been very active in supporting Juniors.
		
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I'm a member of 2 and both have discounts for over 60's (over 65 at my home club).

It's not uncommon and it's a far bigger problem for cash flow than having an intermediate catagory .


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 27, 2016)

Does it matter as long as new people are playing the game? If you can't afford your subs then don't pay them. If you can then pay them and don't worry what others are paying.


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## patricks148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			I'm a member of 2 and both have discounts for over 60's (over 65 at my home club).

It's not uncommon and it's a far bigger problem for cash flow than having an intermediate catagory .
		
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Most of the clubs i know only give a senior discount if you have been a member for 25 years or more, reward for paying full fee's all that time.


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## Hosel Fade (Oct 27, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I was merely answering the point. All those still on reduced rates seem to have new(ish) gear, go away with the family and go on overseas trips organised by members so it is clear that disposable income isn't an issue for most. No mention of means testing and surely it'll come down to a simple person by person choice as to whether they could afford it annually and if not, look at other clubs as an alternative.

The bottom line is simple and so I'm not going to carry on answering, is that the club won't change these fees and while I disagree with them particularly the final 30-35 bracket, there is no point worrying about things I can't change. Life's too short. I was merely adding my thoughts to the debate.
		
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The reason for myself leaving RA was purely the intermediate price jump between the 400 and 800 figure being too steep for myself. The arrangements with smaller steps more frequently are far more sensible in my opinion. When full fees should start applying and what level intermediate fees should be set at is a different matter entirely.


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## Crazyface (Oct 28, 2016)

What about those at the age of say 35, divorced with two children to support, and maybe a new family started with a new partner, and a new mortgage to boot. No reduction for those people. There are loads and loads of categories that could be dreamed up that would / should be entitled to reduced fees but you make your choices in life. Once in a job and earning money you should be paying full fees.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			What about those at the age of say 35, divorced with two children to support, and maybe a new family started with a new partner, and a new mortgage to boot. No reduction for those people. There are loads and loads of categories that could be dreamed up that would / should be entitled to reduced fees but you make your choices in life. Once in a job and earning money you should be paying full fees.
		
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Will it depend on the job ? The location ? How much distance the person has to travel - we can all dream up loads of different people that we could say need smaller fees 

Or how about we all just concentrate on what we as an individual pay and see if we can afford the fees that are required to join the club we want - if it's too expensive then look elsewhere - why do you care what anyone else pays , surely it's just about what you pay yourself. 

Intermediate fees have helped a lot of golf clubs all over the country - they have enabled younger people to join members golf clubs and they are the people that will be the future of the sport within our clubs 

Understand 30% of clubs around the country have seen a membership increase over the past 12 months - initiatives like intermediate fees are one of the reasons why golf clubs are showing improving membership fees


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Does it matter as long as new people are playing the game? If you can't afford your subs then don't pay them. If you can then pay them and don't worry what others are paying.
		
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^^^This

Gosh - those of us fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay the subs for golf club membership (and I view myself as fortunate in that respect rather than deserving) should be grateful that we are in a position to do so - and rejoice in that rather than worry about what someone else is paying for the same pleasure - and be happy that the club is able to afford to be able to offer intermediate fees to attract younger members.  Blimey a golf club would be a miserable place if it's membership was all 50+


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## MarkE (Oct 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Does it matter as long as new people are playing the game? If you can't afford your subs then don't pay them. If you can then pay them and don't worry what others are paying.
		
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This is a problem for me. It's not a case of affordability, but fairness. No particular age range should get preferential treatment (bar under 18's). One fee for everyone. I would'nt join a course that operated on those lines.


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## Crazyface (Oct 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			This is a problem for me.* It's not a case of affordability, but fairness.* No particular age range should get preferential treatment (bar under 18's). One fee for everyone. I would'nt join a course that operated on those lines.
		
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THIS !


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## Val (Oct 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			This is a problem for me. It's not a case of affordability, but fairness. No particular age range should get preferential treatment (bar under 18's). One fee for everyone. I would'nt join a course that operated on those lines.
		
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Unfortunately you'll find this as a business model would put many clubs under.

There isn't a one rule fits all clubs but on the whole where there is intermediate catagory in clubs it works and it works well.

Bottom line, if you can afford your membership then stop worrying. If you think it's unfair then join somewhere else.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 28, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			THIS !
		
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Is it fair that 7 day members have to pay for 5 days they likely won't be able to use?


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## Val (Oct 28, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			THIS !
		
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You didn't answer my question on age and the assumption on your posts is that you've either just left this catagory or just missed it as your club introduced it. You appear to have a real sense of bitterness on the subject.


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## Val (Oct 28, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Is it fair that 7 day members have to pay for 5 days they likely won't be able to use?
		
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Or those who have issues with circulation in the cold can't play for 5 or 6 months


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Val said:



			Unfortunately you'll find this as a business model would put many clubs under.

There isn't a one rule fits all clubs but on the whole where there is intermediate catagory in clubs it works and it works well.
*
Bottom line, if you can afford your membership then stop worrying. If you think it's unfair then join somewhere else.*

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^^^This - complaining about 'fairness' is just a symptom of today's society when many seem to begrudge others something that they themselves cannot get.


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## MarkE (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			^^^This - complaining about 'fairness' is just a symptom of today's society when many seem to begrudge others something that they themselves cannot get.
		
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You think fairness is a symptom of today's society? I would have thought it applied to any society in any time period. I don't begrudge anyone anything they work for. What's wrong with everyone paying the same, it works for everything else.


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## Val (Oct 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			You think fairness is a symptom of today's society? I would have thought it applied to any society in any time period. I don't begrudge anyone anything they work for. What's wrong with everyone paying the same, it works for everything else.
		
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I take it you read and ignored everything in this thread?

Is it fair when I sit on an airplane that I may have paid more or less than someone stating beside me? Do they plan to change that?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 28, 2016)

Since when has access to golf been fair? You play a game that has more perceived/actual barriers to participation based on wealth and gender, yet you say youngsters paying bit less is unfair. The same youngsters the game and clubs needs to survive in the future. 

Perspective needed I think.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

As many have previously said it is a simple question.

If you can afford your own fees and feel it is value for money what is the problem with what others pay?

I first joined a club in 1972 at the age of 23, just married and mortgaged, no intermediate fees in those days so I paid the same as those older members with established successful careers and much more disposable income than myself.

For 42 years I paid full subs (34 of those years were to my current Club) and saw the introduction of Intermediate Fees and reductions for those over 65 with at least 30 years membership.

I welcomed both initiatives as a means of encouraging younger members to remain or join and recognising the contribution that longstanding members had made to the Club. This despite the fact that both meant I probably had to pay a bit more.

If I could not have afforded it I would have had to forego my membership but I really do not think the cost of these "subsidies" made a vast difference to my fees.

A proposal for flat rate subs was presented at our AGM two years ago and was soundly defeated by those present who, by the way, were representative of all categories of members.

But for those that are not happy you can always make such a proposal at your own clubs.


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## MarkE (Oct 28, 2016)

Val said:



			I take it you read and ignored everything in this thread?

Is it fair when I sit on an airplane that I may have paid more or less than someone stating beside me? Do they plan to change that?
		
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I choose to ignore some of the drivel in this thread like any other. You have a choice whether to take that seat or not, just as I have a choice whether or not I join a particular club. I would'nt join a club offering different membership rates based on age. You are of course free to do whatever you want, i'm not trying to change anyone else's view, just giving mine. That is still allowed is'nt it?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2016)

Hosel Fade said:



			The reason for myself leaving RA was purely the intermediate price jump between the 400 and 800 figure being too steep for myself. The arrangements with smaller steps more frequently are far more sensible in my opinion. When full fees should start applying and what level intermediate fees should be set at is a different matter entirely.
		
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I can understand that and totally agree with the final sentence that when intermediate fees should stop is a different topic. It's a shame you found the step up too much but your new home isn't too shabby



Liverpoolphil said:



			Intermediate fees have helped a lot of golf clubs all over the country - they have enabled younger people to join members golf clubs and they are the people that will be the future of the sport within our clubs 

Understand 30% of clubs around the country have seen a membership increase over the past 12 months - initiatives like intermediate fees are one of the reasons why golf clubs are showing improving membership fees
		
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We are getting close to full membership but most of those don't fit into the intermediate bracket, and in truth the number of members we have between 18 and 35 remains relatively small in the overall demographic so I disagree that the intermediate fees are having a substantial influence over members joining at this time



MarkE said:



			This is a problem for me. It's not a case of affordability, but fairness. No particular age range should get preferential treatment (bar under 18's). One fee for everyone. I would'nt join a course that operated on those lines.
		
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This would be my preferential starting point. When I was a member at Wimbledon Common in the 80's there was none of these intermediate fees and once you reached 18 you were expected to pay the full membership fees. It was the same elsewhere and at that time if you didn't, you simply didn't become a member of a golf club



Val said:



			Unfortunately you'll find this as a business model would put many clubs under.

There isn't a one rule fits all clubs but on the whole where there is intermediate catagory in clubs it works and it works well.

Bottom line, if you can afford your membership then stop worrying. If you think it's unfair then join somewhere else.
		
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This is very true. It is now a common business model, one which wasn't there for me as an eighteen year old. It clearly does help bridge that gap. 

If clubs are to have these intermediate fees, and it seems they are here to stay, I simply fail to see how these should be allowed to go all the way to 35. I just simply feel this is far too high. It's a personal view, one that others clearly don't share. It won't change, although I am in the process of drafting a letter to the committee asking for a rationale and a conclusive breakdown of how many new members it has afforded over the last three years, and how many members have left once they have to pay the full rate to see if there is any evidence that it is really working as a carrot to join and then remain


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## Val (Oct 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I choose to ignore some of the drivel in this thread like any other. You have a choice whether to take that seat or not, just as I have a choice whether or not I join a particular club. I would'nt join a club offering different membership rates based on age. You are of course free to do whatever you want, i'm not trying to change anyone else's view, just giving mine. That is still allowed is'nt it?
		
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I assume you don't have a junior section?

Drivel? I assume it mean people have given a balanced view showing benefits which is the difference all you say it's unfair. Hardly offering a debate is it?


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## MarkE (Oct 29, 2016)

Val said:



			I assume you don't have a junior section?

Drivel? I assume it mean people have given a balanced view showing benefits which is the difference all you say it's unfair. Hardly offering a debate is it?
		
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What's your problem? Just because I don't agree with your view makes it no less valid. I maintain that it's unfair to charge different rates based on age and I see no benefit to it. It's ridiculous for a thirty year old to get preferential rates. There's your debate, me disagreeing with you.
Oh, the junior section is a different matter entirely.


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## Val (Oct 29, 2016)

MarkE said:



			What's your problem? Just because I don't agree with your view makes it no less valid. I maintain that it's unfair to charge different rates based on age and I see no benefit to it. It's ridiculous for a thirty year old to get preferential rates. There's your debate, me disagreeing with you.
Oh, the junior section is a different matter entirely.
		
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I don't have a problem. judging by your aggressive tone it's you that has the problem.

Anyway, that will do me for this thread.


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## MarkE (Oct 29, 2016)

Val said:



			I don't have a problem. judging by your aggressive tone it's you that has the problem.

Anyway, that will do me for this thread.
		
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Aggressive tone?  You must live a very sheltered existence if you find anything i've said aggressive. You were the one who picked up on my comments and had a go. Bye.


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## Crazyface (Oct 30, 2016)

Val said:



			You didn't answer my question on age and the assumption on your posts is that you've either just left this catagory or just missed it as your club introduced it. You appear to have a real sense of bitterness on the subject.
		
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Nope, I missed it by miles. I just disagree with inequality.


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