# Verdict on the budget?



## vkurup (Mar 16, 2016)

So what is the general opinion on the budget today?  Good to see small biz rates come down... Sugar tax is an eye wash from monetary benefit, but good for addressing the problem.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2016)

Robbing from the disabled to give to the rich.....that's the Tories for you.

Massive ISA saving plans........free money for the under 40's. 
Whilst canny pensioners get stuffed by 1% interest on their hard earned, taxed savings.


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## bluewolf (Mar 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Robbing from the disabled to give to the rich.....that's the Tories for you.

Massive ISA saving plans........free money for the under 40's. 
Whilst canny pensioners get stuffed by 1% interest on their hard earned, taxed savings.
		
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It's got less to do with free money for the U40's, and more to do with increasing tax revenue by switching people's ideas of saving from pensions (no tax income for up to 40+ years) to ISA's (Tax revenue right away).


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## chrisd (Mar 16, 2016)

The small business rate will help a lot of little companies, however, I've been paying out Â£1k + per month rates on an empty building which is grossly unfair. I'm not sure whether the reduction of Capital Gains Tax will help, if and when it's sold?


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## JustOne (Mar 17, 2016)

I wonder how many POOR people can afford to squirrel away Â£4K/year AND not ever need to use that money other than for buying a house.


... and I see yet again the drunks are being kept happy


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## Del_Boy (Mar 17, 2016)

Looks like I'm in the camp that will be better off because of this budget.


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## Imurg (Mar 17, 2016)

Apparently Ms Imurg63l will be in the region of Â£6.63 better off per month.....

She's not planning to retire anytime soon..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2016)

The forcing of schools to become academies was a bit of a surprise. That is changing the fundamental way in which education is delivered for good.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The forcing of schools to become academies was a bit of a surprise. That is changing the fundamental way in which education is delivered for good.
		
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You forgot 'in England'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Apparently Ms Imurg63l will be in the region of Â£6.63 better off per month.....

She's not planning to retire anytime soon..
		
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The problem I see with making a lot of people a little better off (to an extent that frankly makes little difference for most) is that all these little amounts add up to a big amount.  And that big amount has to be found somewhere (if Osbo isn't going to borrow - nuts!) - and it is found from areas that affect fewer folks with less to live on - and so the simple sums mean impact on them is greater.  And all that for what.  So he can boast about a Conservative government cutting the tax burden  and delivering on a Tory manifesto promise.  Well whoop-dee-doop George, glad you're pleased with yourself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The forcing of schools to become academies was a bit of a surprise. That is changing the fundamental way in which education is delivered for good.
		
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Though I don't advocate mandating Maths to the age of 18.  A good grasp of Arithmetic is what we all need.  So split Arithmetic out from Maths.  Those of the 'I can't do maths' mindset find that they are not doing maths - they are doing this other subject call Arithmetic - which isn't Maths - which is good.  If you get my drift.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I don't advocate mandating Maths to the age of 18.  A good grasp of Arithmetic is what we all need.  So split Arithmetic out from Maths.  Those of the 'I can't do maths' mindset find that they are not doing maths - they are doing this other subject call Arithmetic - which isn't Maths - which is good.  If you get my drift.
		
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Maths and arithmetic were different exams in Scotland in the 70s


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I don't advocate mandating Maths to the age of 18.  A good grasp of Arithmetic is what we all need.  So split Arithmetic out from Maths.  Those of the 'I can't do maths' mindset find that they are not doing maths - they are doing this other subject call Arithmetic - which isn't Maths - which is good.  If you get my drift.
		
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It was more the removal of local authorities from the oversight of schools and making them academise I was referring to.  In England as DFT correctly points out.  Massive shift in where the decision making powers in school lie.  As they will all be basically made by the boards of the Multi Academy Trusts now. Meaning local stakeholder input will be reduced significantly.

The other things like sugar tax funding PE and maths to 18 are arguably just very small diversion things really.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2016)

In Scotland we have had Academies since Adam was a boy [Robert not Charlie]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Maths and arithmetic were different exams in Scotland in the 70s
		
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Indeed they were...I would advocate making them once again separate subjects - I would differentiate between maths and arithmetic (See what I did there  ). Not too many of us need to understand calculus - we all need to be able to do mental arithmetic - in fact it is an integral part of life (did it again - damn)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In Scotland we have had Academies since Adam was a boy [Robert not Charlie]
		
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sure - but Scotand's public schools aren't private schools


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2016)

Sorry but my 2015 target will now take me another five years.

If your company sales manager said that, how long would he last.


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2016)

The academy schools idea is an ideological pursuit, like hospital Trusts. It is intended to allow greater freedom for schools, but in the background makes it easier for schools to be gobbled up by big educational companies. Just like the NHS then. Probably good for the best schools and terrible for the failing schools. And these schols are not necessarily failing because of the lack of effort from teachers.


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed they were...I would advocate making them once again separate subjects - I would differentiate between maths and arithmetic (See what I did there  ). Not too many of us need to understand calculus - we all need to be able to do mental arithmetic - in fact it is an integral part of life (did it again - damn)
		
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Sorry, that argument just doesn't add up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but my 2015 target will now take me another five years.

If your company sales manager said that, how long would he last.
		
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But he isn't the company sales manager so it's not relevant


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Sorry, that argument just doesn't add up.
		
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that's reductio ad absurdum for you - QED I suppose - in a way


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## Del_Boy (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The problem I see with making a lot of people a little better off (to an extent that frankly makes little difference for most) is that all these little amounts add up to a big amount.  And that big amount has to be found somewhere (if Osbo isn't going to borrow - nuts!) - and it is found from areas that affect fewer folks with less to live on - and so the simple sums mean impact on them is greater.  And all that for what.  So he can boast about a Conservative government cutting the tax burden  and delivering on a Tory manifesto promise.  Well whoop-dee-doop George, glad you're pleased with yourself.
		
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That works for individuals as well.  Saving a little in each of your monthly bills soon adds up to a sum worth having.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But he isn't the company sales manager so it's not relevant
		
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OK, as a favour just for you, I shall change it to company finance director.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm no expert in politics so maybe someone can help me out please.
I thought it said in the budget that those people who earn over Â£150,000 a year are now paying 5% LESS tax than they were before.
That can't be right surely?
Another 5% pay rise for his boss then and himself?

Please tell me I've got that wrong........


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			That works for individuals as well.  Saving a little in each of your monthly bills soon adds up to a sum worth having.
		
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Yes it does - and that's fine if you're in receipt of a load of bawbees - one day you'll have a shilling.  But your gradually accumulated gain is going to come about as a result of someone else's step change loss.


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## Rooter (Mar 17, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I'm no expert in politics so maybe someone can help me out please.
I thought it said in the budget that those people who earn over Â£150,000 a year are now paying 5% LESS tax than they were before.
That can't be right surely?
Another 5% pay rise for his boss then and himself?

Please tell me I've got that wrong........
		
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I cant see any mention of it bob, all i can see for those earning 150k+ is a pension relief cut. The 40% take level has raised from 40 to 45k, making those on 150 a small saving, but not much in real terms.


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## Del_Boy (Mar 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes it does - and that's fine if you're in receipt of a load of bawbees - one day you'll have a shilling.  But your gradually accumulated gain is going to come about as a result of someone else's step change loss.
		
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I'm still losing as well as I'm still paying in more than I'm taking out so everyone is a loser.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I'm no expert in politics so maybe someone can help me out please.
I thought it said in the budget that those people who earn over Â£150,000 a year are now paying 5% LESS tax than they were before.
That can't be right surely?
Another 5% pay rise for his boss then and himself?

Please tell me I've got that wrong........
		
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Quite probable - justified on the grounds that the more the boss has in his pocket at the end of the month the more will trickle down to his employees; well that's the good intent anyway.  Though bosses who feel they've had it a bit tough last few years - with us all being in it together after all - might actually think they are deserving to hold onto it for the time being.  But that's redistribution of wealth for you - down to those with it to decide if and when they are happy to give some of it away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Del_Boy said:



			I'm still losing as well as I'm still paying in more than I'm taking out so everyone is a loser.
		
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I think the only monetary thing that we get from the state is tax relief on my pension contributions.  Stopped getting child benefit for the children many years ago and we have never qualified for anything else of any nature, shape or form.  But that's OK.  I'm generally happy to pay my share and most of the time hold no resentments against those who pay less or nothing into the pot.


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## Del_Boy (Mar 17, 2016)

Rooter said:



			I cant see any mention of it bob, all i can see for those earning 150k+ is a pension relief cut. The 40% take level has raised from 40 to 45k, making those on 150 a small saving, but not much in real terms.
		
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Also there is no personal allowance on that wack so no benefit of that being increased either!


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## vkurup (Mar 17, 2016)

bobmac said:



			I'm no expert in politics so maybe someone can help me out please.
I thought it said in the budget that those people who earn over Â£150,000 a year are now paying 5% LESS tax than they were before.
That can't be right surely?
Another 5% pay rise for his boss then and himself?

Please tell me I've got that wrong........
		
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Not sure I saw anything on this one?? where is this.. 
Dont forget he has taken personal allowance away, so any cut would be welcome.   The worst off will be 130-150K bracket..   no personal allowance and no tax cut.   This is what keeps me awake


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2016)

Tate & Lyle shares slumped with news of the sugar tax.

They recovered a bit when someone told the smart London traders that T&L sold their sugar business in 2009.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK, as a favour just for you, I shall change it to company finance director.
		
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It's all still irrelevant


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## Kellfire (Mar 17, 2016)

JustOne said:



			... and I see yet again the drunks are being kept happy 

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Really? As a purchaser of expensive beer, I shall take this chance to remind you that we pay ridicuously high duty on alcohol compared to many countries in Europe. It makes me sad.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Not sure I saw anything on this one?? where is this..
		
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Sorry, wrong budget.


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## vkurup (Mar 17, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Sorry, wrong budget.
		
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Only late by a year... you did not miss much.. :whoo:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

The Home Secretaries decolletage - only because it is subject of conversation.  Attracted to; attracted by; or honestly didn't notice.  I can't say I didn't notice and found it rather distracting - and with my gaze drifting from the fine figure of the Chancellor.  For that reason alone perhaps the lady should have been a little more circumspect - and yes of course she shouldn't actually have to concern herself one iota - but...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The academy schools idea is an ideological pursuit, like hospital Trusts. It is intended to allow greater freedom for schools, but in the background makes it easier for schools to be gobbled up by big educational companies. Just like the NHS then. Probably good for the best schools and terrible for the failing schools. And these schols are not necessarily failing because of the lack of effort from teachers.
		
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That is a slightly exaggerated view of it, but in some cases not too far off.  The autonomy for schools idea promoted by the government is slightly flawed as the power will reside in the boards of the multi academy trusts. Individual schools themselves will have little autonomy, if any.  Also the governing boards of the individual schools will lose most of their powers.

As for the multi academy trusts (MATs) then yes some are run by big companies, but some are run by schools themselves that have been classed as outstanding by Ofsted.  Technically they are all charitable trusts so they won't be doing this to make a profit so to speak.

As with most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle, some MATs are run by empire building ego maniacs that are expanding far too quickly in an attempt to grab as many schools as they can.  But some are run by dedicated people that prioritise the best education for their pupils. You just have to make sure you join the right one.

And as for the reason why schools fail then there are many reasons.  But a failure of leadership (head, governors) is usually the biggest contributory factor. As poor leaders usually attract poor teachers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			That is a slightly exaggerated view of it, but in some cases not too far off.  The autonomy for schools idea promoted by the government is slightly flawed as the power will reside in the boards of the multi academy trusts. Individual schools themselves will have little autonomy, if any.  Also the governing boards of the individual schools will lose most of their powers.

As for the multi academy trusts (MATs) then yes some are run by big companies, but some are run by schools themselves that have been classed as outstanding by Ofsted.  Technically they are all charitable trusts so they won't be doing this to make a profit so to speak.

As with most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle, some MATs are run by empire building ego maniacs that are expanding far too quickly in an attempt to grab as many schools as they can.  But some are run by dedicated people that prioritise the best education for their pupils. You just have to make sure you join the right one.

And as for the reason why schools fail then there are many reasons.  *But a failure of leadership (head, governors) is usually the biggest contributory factor. *As poor leaders usually attract poor teachers.
		
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I wouldn't really have believed that having the wrong head can so very quickly lead to problems - even where the teaching staff remained constant.  I saw it at our children's primary school when a very good and well respected head left; unfortunately the replacement was a bit of a disaster - and of course the governors had become complacent with the school under the under the very competent custodianship of the previous head and had taken their eyes off the governors ball.  The school went from very well performing into special measures in a matter of 2 years.  All sorted now under new leadership and it is back performing very well.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2016)

Sadly I've become jaded and apathetic to it all and irrespective of the party delivering it these budgets are all the same. I can't change what is delivered and so simply take the pros of higher tax allowance with whatever negatives are thrown in with a world weary shrug.


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sadly I've become jaded and apathetic to it all and irrespective of the party delivering it these budgets are all the same. I can't change what is delivered and so simply take the pros of higher tax allowance with whatever negatives are thrown in with a world weary shrug.
		
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I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I agree with you.  I know its important and I should care but I'm worn down by the obvious 'smoke and mirrors; of Mr Osborne's No 10 ambitions


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2016)

drdel said:



			I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I agree with you.  I know its important and I should care but I'm worn down by the obvious 'smoke and mirrors; of Mr Osborne's No 10 ambitions
		
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The sad thing for me it's not a case of Conservative or Labour but the fact that each budget is the same old and each is a new stick to keep beating the bloke in the street with a wife and family doing a 9-5 job, enjoying a beverage and having to drive to work


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2016)

Love it when they say "We've closed the loop hole blah, blah blah". They put the loop hole in in the first place.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The sad thing for me it's not a case of Conservative or Labour but the fact that each budget is the same old and each is a new stick to keep beating the bloke in the street with a wife and family doing a 9-5 job, *enjoying a beverage and having to drive to work*

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So freezing fuel and Beer duty didn't help then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So freezing fuel and Beer duty didn't help then?
		
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Osbo should have put 1p or 2p on fuel duty - fuel being so relatively cheap at the moment - and that would have paid for his tax cuts.  Rather he decides to cut PIP impacting the disabled - something getting him into all sorts of bother from some in his own party never mind elsewhere ...


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Osbo should have put 1p or 2p on fuel duty - fuel being so relatively cheap at the moment - and that would have paid for his tax cuts.  Rather he decides to cut PIP impacting the disabled - something getting him into all sorts of bother from some in his own party never mind elsewhere ...
		
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I'd happily taken a 3% rise in income tax if it went to the right places like the DLA or PIP. That said, I did read an article that said how flawed the mechanism is for DLA. For example, a certain amount of money is paid out based on needs. If various aids are placed in the home to satisfy some of those needs, the allowance wasn't reduced. Don't know how true that is, and to be honest I don't begrudge a penny they get.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Osbo should have put 1p or 2p on fuel duty - fuel being so relatively cheap at the moment - and that would have paid for his tax cuts.  Rather he decides to cut PIP impacting the disabled - something getting him into all sorts of bother from some in his own party never mind elsewhere ...
		
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Too true, I think Osbourne is beginning to lose the plot.

The unholy alliance between Tory rebels and the SNP seems to have done for this government.
Good old Tories they just can't help themselves.
The EU referendum will go down in history as one of the biggest political blunders. IMVHO


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2016)

O/T   Hobbit old boy.......... How you coping with this heatwave?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Too true, I think Osbourne is beginning to lose the plot.

The unholy alliance between Tory rebels and the SNP seems to have done for this government.
Good old Tories they just can't help themselves.
The EU referendum will go down in history as one of the biggest political blunders. IMVHO
		
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Done for this government ?! 

In what way ? What changes have SNP etc been able to change or affect ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'd happily taken a 3% rise in income tax if it went to the right places like the DLA or PIP. That said, I did read an article that said how flawed the mechanism is for DLA. For example, a certain amount of money is paid out based on needs. If various aids are placed in the home to satisfy some of those needs, the allowance wasn't reduced. Don't know how true that is, and to be honest I don't begrudge a penny they get.
		
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I agree in genuine cases people need real support and help back into employment where possible but I do have doubts about some people on DLA.   I think too many have been moved onto it rather than JSA to make the unemployment numbers seem better.    I see far too many people walking around with elbow crutches that they obviously don't need and they do the genuine disabled a great disservice.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			O/T   Hobbit old boy.......... How you coping with this heatwave?
		
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Shorts and flip flops today Doon, and a lunchtime finish for a bit of flog


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree in genuine cases people need real support and help back into employment where possible but I do have doubts about some people on DLA.   I think too many have been moved onto it rather than JSA to make the unemployment numbers seem better.    *I see far too many people walking around with elbow crutches that they obviously don't need* and they do the genuine disabled a great disservice.
		
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And you are basing that assumption on your medical diagnosis skills how then??


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			And you are basing that assumption on your medical diagnosis skills how then??
		
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No, it's based on my observational skills and low levels of naivety.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Done for this government ?! 

In what way ? What changes have SNP etc been able to change or affect ?
		
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The SNP on their own do not have much chance but aided by the Tory rebels they seem to be blocking this governments most unpopular bills.
Mind you the SNP did manage to gather sufficient support to get the Tampax tax sorted.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP on their own do not have much chance but aided by the Tory rebels they seem to be blocking this governments most unpopular bills.
Mind you the SNP did manage to gather sufficient support to get the Tampax tax sorted.
		
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Sorry but which unpopular bills have been blocked ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Osbo should have put 1p or 2p on fuel duty - fuel being so relatively cheap at the moment - and that would have paid for his tax cuts.  Rather he decides to cut PIP impacting the disabled - something getting him into all sorts of bother from some in his own party never mind elsewhere ...
		
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Exactly. This PIP cut is going to run and run and will divide the Tory party


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2016)

Community Justice, Sunday trading, probably disabled budget proposals off the top of my head.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Community Justice, Sunday trading, probably disabled budget proposals off the top of my head.
		
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Community Justice ?

And no bill in regards the disabled budgets 

So it's just Sunday trading which was voted against by a good number 

So they haven't really done for the government after all have they


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Exactly. This PIP cut is going to run and run and will divide the Tory party
		
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Well IDS has just resigned siting this. So looks like it's already started. And wow ,a policy too hard core for IDS


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## chippa1909 (Mar 18, 2016)

So the repellent Ian Duncan Smith resigns because even he thinks the cuts to disabled peoples benefits will be a step too far. 
Tories getting to be as divided as Labour. :clap:


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## virtuocity (Mar 18, 2016)

What a world we live in.

Our disabled get their benefits cut, and people start to mention those who misuse blue badges.

As the 5th richest economy in the world, we refuse entry to those who live in squalor in the Calais jungle, and people call them leachers. 

Those in the South West are more likely to get treated by Richard Branson's GPs than our own NHS's and people complain about Junior doctor strikes.  

To those who voted Conservative and continue to do so, I envy you-  you clearly have never been in need.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 18, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			What a world we live in.

Our disabled get their benefits cut, and people start to mention those who misuse blue badges.

As the 5th richest economy in the world, we refuse entry to those who live in squalor in the Calais jungle, and people call them leachers. 

Those in the South West are more likely to get treated by Richard Branson's GPs than our own NHS's and people complain about Junior doctor strikes.  

To those who voted Conservative and continue to do so, I envy you-  you clearly have never been in need.
		
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Yes. A selfish, greedy party.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			What a world we live in.

Our disabled get their benefits cut, and people start to mention those who misuse blue badges.

*As the 5th richest economy in the world, we refuse entry to those who live in squalor in the Calais jungle, and people call them leachers. 
*
Those in the South West are more likely to get treated by Richard Branson's GPs than our own NHS's and people complain about Junior doctor strikes.  

To those who voted Conservative and continue to do so, I envy you-  you clearly have never been in need.
		
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Do you really suggest we open our borders to anyone that manages to make their way to Calais.  Can you not see what a pull factor that would create.

Please explain how this should work?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Yes. A selfish, greedy party.
		
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He's not talking about the Party, He's talking about the population, or more likely the English population as Scots would never be so crass


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Yes. A selfish, greedy party.
		
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and Ian Duncan Smith's resignation letter suggests that he realises that as well - all in it together? - complete tosh.  Need for the UK to have a surplus by 2019/20 at any costs? - rubbish - just politics not economics.  And that's a cabinet minister speaking.  Someone who knows what thinking is going on behind the facade.  Compassionate, caring conservatives?  Well maybe not as much as they like to portray.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He's not talking about the Party, He's talking about the population, or more likely the English population as Scots would never be so crass 

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Sorry, my bad. 
I should have said a selfish, greedy party, and the people who vote for it and endorse its policies.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and Ian Duncan Smith's resignation letter suggests that he realises that as well - all in it together? - complete tosh.  Need for the UK to have a surplus by 2019/20 at any costs? - rubbish - just politics not economics.  And that's a cabinet minisiter speaking.  Someone who knows what thinking is going on behind the facade.
		
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I think you will find that his main complaint is connected to how he can make the required cuts in his budget more than disagreement with policy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you really suggest we open our borders to anyone that manages to make their way to Calais.  Can you not see what a pull factor that would create.

Please explain how this should work?
		
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Only a significant pull factor if the UK was the only country acting in that way - which we will never be.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and Ian Duncan Smith's resignation letter suggests that he realises that as well - all in it together? - complete tosh.  Need for the UK to have a surplus by 2019/20 at any costs? - rubbish - just politics not economics.  And that's a cabinet minister speaking.  Someone who knows what thinking is going on behind the facade.  Compassionate, caring conservatives?  Well maybe not as much as they like to portray.
		
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You really think IDS has gained a conscience suddenly? Or is it more about undermining Cameron and Gideon?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Sorry, my bad. 
I should have said a selfish, greedy party, and the people who vote for it and endorse its policies.
		
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...and a good few here would unfortunately have agreed with the plans to cut PIP and celebrated getting a cut in  their income tax.  Aye - all in it together.  And we who oppose these things are derided as being naive, and to suggest that voting Tory displays less compassion to others - well we who took that line in the lead up to the last GE were dismissed as not understanding how caring and compassionate conservatives are.  Well IDS decides not.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only a significant pull factor if the UK was the only country acting in that way - which we will never be.
		
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Do you really think so?   There are only a few countries they are interested in entering, I doubt if Sweden is one either, neither is France. I would suggest they only go there because they can, the UK and Germany are the main countries of interest to migrants.

So, I ask again, do you think we should open our borders to all that get to Calais?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			You really think IDS has gained a conscience suddenly? Or is it more about undermining Cameron and Gideon?
		
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I think he has taken things as far as his conscience allowed him.  And eventually he found that what he was told he was having to do was just not the right thing to do.  And it is of course handy timing giving he'd be dumped if we stayed in EU and so best for him to free himself from the cabinet ot campaign for Brexit.  But I think he probably has a core decency largely hidden from us that got him, and I'd like to think that his strong religious convictions told him 'no more';


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## virtuocity (Mar 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think he has taken things as far as his conscience allowed him.  And eventually he found that what he was told he was having to do was just not the right thing to do.
		
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:rofl:

Nothing to do with the fact he wants to leave the sinking ship and dump the Universal Credit scandal on Osborne?


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## virtuocity (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you really suggest we open our borders to anyone that manages to make their way to Calais.  Can you not see what a pull factor that would create.

Please explain how this should work?
		
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Bring them all in.

If you don't want refugees, don't start wars.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 18, 2016)

IDS is bailing before the universal credit fiasco hits and getting himself into a comfy position with his Brexit loving lizard pals. Nothing to do with morals, it's opportunistic politics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you really think so?   There are only a few countries they are interested in entering, I doubt if Sweden is one either, neither is France. I would suggest they only go there because they can, the UK and Germany are the main countries of interest to migrants.

So, I ask again, do you think we should open our borders to all that get to Calais?
		
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I have said before that I think we are all going to have to rethink our comfortable lives as I cannot see measures preventing many hundred of thousands - possibly millions - heading for Europe to escape the misery and hell of their homes countries.  And if that happens I do not believe that we - whether in the EU or out - can stand aside as our neighbours on mainland Europe struggle and evolve to accommodate and integrate all coming our way.

Do I want my comfortable life in the UK to change?  No.  Do I think that it is going to have to? Yes.  In the late 90s an aspect of my job was to consider what would be the great threats to Western European security and how we could counter them.  One of the major threats was mass migration to Europe (the most likely source being at the time felt to be from China).  Defence strategy experts could find no solution.  And so it has come to pass.


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## virtuocity (Mar 18, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			IDS is bailing before the universal credit fiasco hits and getting himself into a comfy position with his Brexit loving lizard pals. Nothing to do with morals, it's opportunistic politics.
		
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Very this.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			Bring them all in.

If you don't want refugees, don't start wars.
		
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And here was me thinking the war they were fleeing from was that one between their own Government, Anti Government rebels and Islamic State.   When exactly did we start this war in Syria.

"Let them all in"  Now theres a well thought out policy.  So we let in a million, four, six million, more maybe.  Now, please tell me how we deal with these people.   Do we build some massive camps, do we put tents up in the Highlands and Dartmoor, do we give them medical care, educate the children?  Come on, tell us how we do it rather than make such blind idealogical statements!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And here was me thinking the war they were fleeing from was that one between their own Government, Anti Government rebels and Islamic State.   When exactly did we start this war in Syria.

"Let them all in"  Now theres a well thought out policy.  So we let in a million, four, six million, more maybe.  Now, please tell me how we deal with these people.   *Do we build some massive camps, do we put tents up in the Highlands and Dartmoor, do we give them medical care, educate the children? * Come on, tell us how we do it rather than make such blind idealogical statements!
		
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How about - Yes.  Our comfortable life is I suspect going to have to change.  What would you do?  Stand aside and watch millions of immigrants/refugees pile up the other side of the channel.  What makes us different or special?  What makes our comfortable lifestyle more precious than that of the Germans, the French, the Dutch?   And as we stand aside outside the EU watching this and refusing to help we will be looking for advantageous access to the EU open market.  That would seem to be the strategy and ideology many Brexiteers would like to adopt.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 18, 2016)

Tory mahem. Delicious and thoroughly deserved.

Now if Labour would stop abstaining and vote with the SNP........


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about - Yes.  Our comfortable life is I suspect going to have to change.  What would you do?  Stand aside and watch millions of immigrants/refugees pile up the other side of the channel.  What makes us different or special?  What makes our comfortable lifestyle more precious than that of the Germans, the French, the Dutch?   And as we stand aside outside the EU watching this and refusing to help we will be looking for advantageous access to the EU open market.  That would seem to be the strategy and ideology many Brexiteers would like to adopt.
		
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What makes us different is that we have better welfare than many countries and migrants see us a a promised land where you get a house, job, benefits, health care, education etc.   Thats true but not if we take in unlimited numbers in such a short timeframe.  Migrants from Syria need to be given shelter, food, warmth, healthcare and education but they wont get that if they are left to move aimlessly around Europe trying to cherry pick where they would like to live.  The current mess is a grim reflection on the EU and UN being unable to deal with such situations.

Suggesting that the UK just open our borders and let anyone from anywhere walk in and expect a western lifestyle is naive and stupid.   Please try to explain the logistics of managing your suggestions rather than suggesting that we all need to expect our life styles to be different!   That type of comment is unbelievably simplistic.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about - Yes.  Our comfortable life is I suspect going to have to change.  What would you do?  Stand aside and watch millions of immigrants/refugees pile up the other side of the channel.  What makes us different or special?  What makes our comfortable lifestyle more precious than that of the Germans, the French, the Dutch?   And as we stand aside outside the EU watching this and refusing to help we will be looking for advantageous access to the EU open market.  That would seem to be the strategy and ideology many Brexiteers would like to adopt.
		
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Change to what?

An even more stretched NHS because of an increasing population and no money to build more hospitals. An even greater dearth of social housing. A poorer education for our children because class size limits are increased and classes disrupted by the lack of English spoken by the refugees.

Where is the money to pay for this? Where is the political will for this? We may be the 5th wealthiest economy in the world but that wealth doesn't reside with 90% of the population where the taxes would have to come from to pay for it.

there was an article a few years back about the number of minimum wage jobs, and how jobs that weren't minimum wage now are. Bringing cheap labour into this country has lowered the standard of living of so many people who were already on a relatively low wage. 

Living in in the leafy suburbs and saying take them in as a salve to our good Christian beliefs is a genuinely great ambition, but where is the money and the will for this? Don't get me wrong, if we were building more hospitals, houses and schools I'd say let them in. But not only are we not doing those things, there sadly isn't the will to do them.


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## Del_Boy (Mar 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'd happily taken a 3% rise in income tax if it went to the right places like the DLA or PIP. That said, I did read an article that said how flawed the mechanism is for DLA. For example, a certain amount of money is paid out based on needs. If various aids are placed in the home to satisfy some of those needs, the allowance wasn't reduced. Don't know how true that is, and to be honest I don't begrudge a penny they get.
		
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I wouldn't take another 3% rise feel I already contribute enough.  Received final details of my bonus Friday when it gets paid 50% of it straight into the countries coffers.  Thought I'd take the Mrs out yesterday, for what we paid 20% straight into the countries coffers.  The country is collecting almost Â£700billion each year if 70million people can't live on that we are well and truly up some creek without a paddle.


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## chrisd (Mar 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Change to what?

An even more stretched NHS because of an increasing population and no money to build more hospitals. An even greater dearth of social housing. A poorer education for our children because class size limits are increased and classes disrupted by the lack of English spoken by the refugees.

Where is the money to pay for this? Where is the political will for this? We may be the 5th wealthiest economy in the world but that wealth doesn't reside with 90% of the population where the taxes would have to come from to pay for it.

there was an article a few years back about the number of minimum wage jobs, and how jobs that weren't minimum wage now are. Bringing cheap labour into this country has lowered the standard of living of so many people who were already on a relatively low wage. 

Living in in the leafy suburbs and saying take them in as a salve to our good Christian beliefs is a genuinely great ambition, but where is the money and the will for this? Don't get me wrong, if we were building more hospitals, houses and schools I'd say let them in. But not only are we not doing those things, there sadly isn't the will to do them.
		
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We are in need of the services BECAUSE we let them in. We have 6,000 houses being built on a new development in the town where I live. I understand that will mean approximately 10,000 more people, there are to be 3 new schools, doctors surgery, dentists, shops, jobs etc etc - if you allow 1m people in to the country how many services do we need to add to cope ? Even if they all work the whole thing is self perpetuating.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Tory mahem. Delicious and thoroughly deserved.

Now if Labour would stop abstaining and vote with the SNP........
		
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Corbyn choosing not to support the SLAB conference is 'interesting'.
Perhaps he is starting to realise Miliband's tactical error.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2016)

If we are in a position where people are playing politics with the lives of disabled people then it goes to show what a scum sucking morally repugnant society at have ended up with. 

And as for the immigration 'we're too full' argument can't we just keep that to 18 threads, does it really have to take over this one?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Has someone really suggested that we just allow anyone to enter ?

What exactly would that achieve

Where would they live ?

What would they live on ?

Who will fund them ?


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## virtuocity (Mar 19, 2016)

I suggested that we let everyone from Calais into Britain.  Now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			I suggested that we let everyone from Calais into Britain.  Now.
		
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And where would they go exactly ?


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## Del_Boy (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And where would they go exactly ?
		
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Put up taxes so we can build a load of new houses for 'em.


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## chellie (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And where would they go exactly ?
		
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Scotland


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2016)

chellie said:



			Scotland

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Ssshhh! There's enough migrants up here...


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2016)

The country isn't full, not even close. The south east is pretty crowded - people want to go there because that is where most of the jobs and wealth are. Both immigrants and British people are drawn to London, in many cases quite reluctantly. Government policies are needed to better distribute wealth, good jobs and opportunity nationwide; the population will follow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			The country isn't full, not even close. The south east is pretty crowded - people want to go there because that is where most of the jobs and wealth are. Both immigrants and British people are drawn to London, in many cases quite reluctantly. Government policies are needed to better distribute wealth, good jobs and opportunity nationwide; the population will follow.
		
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The problem is the services are stretching to the limit as it is -the space maybe there 

How would the government get companies to create jobs outside the London area ?


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How would the government get companies to create jobs outside the London area ?
		
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They'd need to get creative but it could be done if there was the political will. If we persist with capitalism it will inevitably happen eventually when the SE really is full but perhaps if some government took the initiative it could happen while also preserving quality of life for those in the crowded areas.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			What a world we live in.

Our disabled get their benefits cut, and people start to mention those who misuse blue badges.

As the 5th richest economy in the world, we refuse entry to those who live in squalor in the Calais jungle, and people call them leachers. 

Those in the South West are more likely to get treated by Richard Branson's GPs than our own NHS's and people complain about Junior doctor strikes.  

To those who voted Conservative and continue to do so, I envy you-  you clearly have never been in need.
		
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Post of the week there sir, well played.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			They'd need to get creative but it could be done if there was the political will. If we persist with capitalism it will inevitably happen eventually when the SE really is full but perhaps if some government took the initiative it could happen while also preserving quality of life for those in the crowded areas.
		
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Maybe that's what the current government are trying with the Northern Hub and HS3 ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

chellie said:



			Scotland

Click to expand...

They would be very welcome, we have a shortage of teachers and doctors in the rural areas.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They would be very welcome, we have a shortage of teachers and doctors in the rural areas.
		
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So all those refugees in Calais are qualified doctors and teachers ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Post of the week there sir, well played.
		
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Your week maybe but not mine.


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## Big Whacker (Mar 19, 2016)

Our country IS full.

Our services ARE stretched.

English live in England not Romanians or Albanians. We can take in the original EU migrants, France and the like, but not 3rd world dossers.

It doesn't help when MP's help themselves to expenses they're not entitled too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What makes us different is that we have better welfare than many countries and migrants see us a a promised land where you get a house, job, benefits, health care, education etc.   Thats true but not if we take in unlimited numbers in such a short timeframe.  Migrants from Syria need to be given shelter, food, warmth, healthcare and education but they wont get that if they are left to move aimlessly around Europe trying to cherry pick where they would like to live.  The current mess is a grim reflection on the EU and UN being unable to deal with such situations.

Suggesting that the UK just open our borders and let anyone from anywhere walk in and expect a western lifestyle is naive and stupid.   Please try to explain the logistics of managing your suggestions rather than suggesting that we all need to expect our life styles to be different!   That type of comment is unbelievably simplistic.
		
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As simplistic as thinking it is OK to just as stand aside and watch our neighbours on the European mainland struggle to cope with a massive influx - saying that it is not our problem - and then expect to be able to negotiate favourable access to the single EU market.

And we have no more 'right' to a continuance of our comfortable lifestyle than any of our neighbours in Germany, France, Netherlands - who are going to have to adapt and change to accommodate the influx to Europe.  What makes you think that we are different, that we deserve different, that we can continue as we have whilst all around us is in flux and changing.  What gives us the right to deny our part in giving those fleeing chaos, war and persecution a half decent life.  Is it because we are British?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 19, 2016)

Big Whacker said:



			Our country IS full. *I'm not sure about that at all. Plenty of room.*

Our services ARE stretched.*Services reflect investment. We can build more services. You could easily argue they are stretched to to inappropriate use, rather than quantum of population*

English live in England not Romanians or Albanians. We can take in the original EU migrants, France and the like, but not 3rd world dossers. *How very selective of you. Where do you draw your line? *

It doesn't help when MP's help themselves to expenses they're not entitled too.*Wrong place for this rant I think, you were doing so well focusing on immigration. *

Click to expand...

Added my comments to the above


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As simplistic as thinking it is OK to just as stand aside and watch our neighbours on the European mainland struggle to cope with a massive influx - saying that it is not our problem - and then expect to be able to negotiate favourable access to the single EU market.

And we have no more 'right' to a continuance of our comfortable lifestyle than any of our neighbours in Germany, France, Netherlands - who are going to have to adapt and change to accommodate the influx to Europe.  What makes you think that we are different, that we deserve different, that we can continue as we have whilst all around us is in flux and changing.  What gives us the right to deny our part in giving those fleeing chaos, war and persecution a half decent life.  Is it because we are British?
		
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We do let people in from war torn areas but why should we let "everyone" in ?

They have travelled through multiple European countries so why didn't they settle there - they are no longer in the war torn area and are safe. 

We will and have done taken our fair share.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We do let people in from war torn areas but why should we let "everyone" in ?

They have travelled through multiple European countries so why didn't they settle there - they are no longer in the war torn area and are safe. 

We will and have done taken our fair share.
		
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Spot on,they prefer to come here because we are the easy touch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We do let people in from war torn areas but why should we let "everyone" in ?

They have travelled through multiple European countries so why didn't they settle there - they are no longer in the war torn area and are safe. 

We will and have done taken our fair share.
		
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We have done nothing of the sort and have no plans to increase our intake significantly - and the mass migration into Europe has only started. Too many in UK in denial that we will have to take many hundreds of thousands more in the next 5-10yrs and we will, because we will not be able to not to.  That is uncomfortable prospect but I suspect that is probably how things will pan out.  The idea that millions will migrate into Europe and UK will take 20,000 over the coming 5 yrs is fanciful and deluded.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have done nothing of the sort
		
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Are you suggesting we haven't taken immigrants from Syria into the country ? 




			and have no plans to increase our intake significantly - and the mass migration into Europe has only started.
		
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Why would we increase when we committee to take in a certain amount ?




			Too many in UK in denial that we will have to take many hundreds of thousands more in the next 5-10yrs and we will, because we will not be able to not to.
		
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Eh ? Don't understand that statement ?




			That is uncomfortable prospect but I suspect that is probably how things will pan out.  The idea that millions will migrate into Europe and UK will take 20,000 over the coming 5 yrs is fanciful and deluded.
		
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We will take in the amount the country decide is enough so that it doesn't have a negative affect on the country and its residents.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you suggesting we haven't taken immigrants from Syria into the country ? 



Why would we increase when we committee to take in a certain amount ?



Eh ? Don't understand that statement ?



We will take in the amount the country decide is enough so that it doesn't have a negative affect on the country and its residents.
		
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All very nice idea but deluded I fear.  I admit to feeling uncomfortable with the thought that my lifestyle will most likely have to change to accommodate the numbers that we will have to take in - but I just cannot see an outUK being able to stand aside and tell the rEU - sorry - nothing to do with us - it's all your problem.  We might think we'll be able to do that - but morally, practically and economically (if an out UK wants free access to the single market) I just don't think we will be able to.

Anyway - this nothing to do with the budget - other than the budget shambles has undermined the authority, competence and decision making of Osborne and Cameron - and Remain need strong Tory proponents of Remaining.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So all those refugees in Calais are qualified doctors and teachers ?
		
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No, not all of them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, not all of them.
		
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...and I doubt that all of those from overseas providing care to us in our hospitals and care homes are degree level or professionals of the sort a points system would admit,


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All very nice idea but deluded I fear.  I admit to feeling uncomfortable with the thought that my lifestyle will most likely have to change to accommodate the numbers that we will have to take in - but I just cannot see an outUK being able to stand aside and tell the rEU - sorry - nothing to do with us - it's all your problem.  We might think we'll be able to do that - but morally, practically and economically (if an out UK wants free access to the single market) I just don't think we will be able to.
		
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rEU ? OutUK ? Why are you talking about referendum - is it a personal hobby to create this little labels to put onto groups ? 

It's not just an idea - we are taking in immigrants from Syria - it's already happening for goodness sake. Asylum Seekers have already arrived in the UK and being looked after - we will have a certain amount arriving into our country - that's not new news.

When did anyone say that we will say it's not our problem ? Do you have some preconceived argument already formed that you are just trotting out ignoring what people


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, not all of them.
		
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But are they the only ones you would take then ? 

I would expect very minimal if any are qualified doctors and teachers


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I doubt that all of those from overseas providing care to us in our hospitals and care homes are degree level or professionals of the sort a points system would admit,
		
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Probably not but isn't that the point of having managed immigration. Rather than let everyone in we look at what skill sets we require and target those people. If this year we need doctors, nurses and carers they get priority. Next year we might need different professions so we target them instead.


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## Big Whacker (Mar 19, 2016)

My rant on MP's is on topic as this thread is about the budget and where money goes.

We could take immigrants in who genuinely seek asylum but we are full of dossers who, through EU rules, have legally arrived and filled the spaces of the needy. 

This country is knackered (Mod Edit)and is only heading further into self destruction over the next decade or 2.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But are they the only ones you would take then ? 

I would expect very minimal if any are qualified doctors and teachers
		
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What do you base your comment on?
I believe no one has a scoobie how qualified any of the refugee's are.
It naturally suits the agenda of the minimal thinkers that they are all 'dossers'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What do you base your comment on?
I believe no one has a scoobie how qualified any of the refugee's are.
It naturally suits the agenda of the minimal thinkers that they are all 'dossers'.
		
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I base it on what you posted when someone said the asylum seekers at Calais can go to Scotland and you said ok you need doctors and teachers - so I guessed by that comment you knew how qualified they are ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I base it on what you posted when someone said the asylum seekers at Calais can go to Scotland and you said ok you need doctors and teachers - so I guessed by that comment you knew how qualified they are ?
		
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:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As simplistic as thinking it is OK to just as stand aside and watch our neighbours on the European mainland struggle to cope with a massive influx - saying that it is not our problem - and then expect to be able to negotiate favourable access to the single EU market.

And we have no more 'right' to a continuance of our comfortable lifestyle than any of our neighbours in Germany, France, Netherlands - who are going to have to adapt and change to accommodate the influx to Europe.  What makes you think that we are different, that we deserve different, that we can continue as we have whilst all around us is in flux and changing.  What gives us the right to deny our part in giving those fleeing chaos, war and persecution a half decent life.  Is it because we are British?
		
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I asked how you consider the logistics would work to create suitable lifestyles for open door immigration.  You seem to have dodged answering that question in favour of wishy washy sound bites.

Do you honestly believe the countries of the EU will all start taking in unlimited numbers of migrants.  Countries like Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia etc wont take part in such a scheme, Germany, Sweden and France are near the point of saying ' Thats enough'.

It's not just about looking after the unfortunate either, you mention that our lives will need to change but what exactly does that mean.   I suspect that it would mean a big change in our culture and lifestyles as Muslims will not be prepared to change theirs, they will have an agenda of islamification in Europe and the threats you currently see taking place throughout the middle east will emerge here.   IMO war is a very serious threat in Europe over the next 30 years and the type of war wont be like WW2 it will be like you currently see in Syria and Iran.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol:
		
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It's no good posting a silly smiley.  Reply to his valid point on your previous statement.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol:
		
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I'm guessing you don't have an answer ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's no good posting a silly smiley.  Reply to his valid point on your previous statement.
		
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Goodness I claim the jackpot..........I have upset SP AND Livid Phil
Can I join the yogurt knitters club now


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness I claim the jackpot..........I have upset SP AND Livid Phil
Can I join the yogurt knitters club now
		
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So you cant then!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness I claim the jackpot..........I have upset SP AND Livid Phil
Can I join the yogurt knitters club now
		
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No. Stay and finish the job!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness I claim the jackpot..........I have upset SP AND Livid Phil
Can I join the yogurt knitters club now
		
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Not upset just wondering why you are avoiding the questions that's all.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			I suggested that we let everyone from Calais into Britain.  Now.
		
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Why are they so desperate to live in the UK, weren't the other half dozen democratic free thinking western countries they passed through good enough.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked how you consider the logistics would work to create suitable lifestyles for open door immigration.  You seem to have dodged answering that question in favour of wishy washy sound bites.

Do you honestly believe the countries of the EU will all start taking in unlimited numbers of migrants.  Countries like Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia etc wont take part in such a scheme, Germany, Sweden and France are near the point of saying ' Thats enough.
		
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Totally agree with point 1, too many sound bites without any substance and no answers to question, often repeated.

Para 2; a lot of people seem to forget that once the immigrants have papers they can go where ever they like within the EU. Germany et al may well take in x amount but where will they go once they have papers.

Joined up thinking required from the EU countries, as when one country accepts x amount they are actually accepting them into all the countries, not just their own.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not upset just wondering why you are avoiding the questions that's all.
		
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Which of your many questions was that?

I said that the refugees were welcome to Scotland. {Because for historical reasons our country is under populated].
I mentioned that rural Scotland was short of teachers and doctors.

Now I am certain that many of those refugees are teachers and doctors as well as engineers, mechanics, scientists, musicians.
Not forgetting journalists.....my god we need some of those in Scotland.

I may have implied that perhaps the people who do not like 'people who are not like us' may describe all refugees as 'dossers'.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I said that the refugees were welcome to Scotland
		
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Harsh, I quite liked Peebles.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which of your many questions was that?

I said that the refugees were welcome to Scotland. {Because for historical reasons our country is under populated].
I mentioned that rural Scotland was short of teachers and doctors.

Now I am certain that many of those refugees are teachers and doctors as well as engineers, mechanics, scientists, musicians.
*Not forgetting journalists.....my god we need some of those in Scotland.
*
I may have implied that perhaps the people who do not like 'people who are not like us' may describe all refugees as 'dossers'.
		
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Please, just the honest ones!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which of your many questions was that?

I said that the refugees were welcome to Scotland. {Because for historical reasons our country is under populated].
I mentioned that rural Scotland was short of teachers and doctors.

Now I am certain that many of those refugees are teachers and doctors as well as engineers, mechanics, scientists, musicians.
Not forgetting journalists.....my god we need some of those in Scotland.

I may have implied that perhaps the people who do not like 'people who are not like us' may describe all refugees as 'dossers'.
		
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I have no idea about "dossers" etc 

But how can you be so certain many of them are what you suggest. Whilst a lot of them are resourceful a good majority of them not what you suggest - in fact I would be amazed if there was one qualified doctor amongst them or scientist etc - harsh maybe but that doesn't make them dossers


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But how can you be so certain many of them are what you suggest. Whilst a lot of them are resourceful a good majority of them not what you suggest - in fact *I would be amazed if there was one qualified doctor amongst them or scientist etc* - harsh maybe but that doesn't make them dossers
		
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I'd be amazed if there wasn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2016)

seems to me that the budget is - if not meaningless - goning that way.  Forecasts that are immediately shown to be dodgy by independent analysts and statements that aren't what going to happen - but what might happen if nobody makes a fuss.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			If we are in a position where people are playing politics with the lives of disabled people then it goes to show what a scum sucking morally repugnant society at have ended up with. 

And as for the immigration 'we're too full' argument can't we just keep that to 18 threads, does it really have to take over this one?
		
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Yup, the tories are playing politics with the lives of disabled people. If you are in favour of brexit then IDS is a courageous moral campaigner for the disabled. If you are against he is a conniving weasel. Well done everybody 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35854735


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2016)

The IFS has stated that the spend on the disabled has been increased in real terms it's just being spent differently.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			The IFS has stated that the spend on the disabled has been increased in real terms it's just being spent differently.
		
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Politics is all about perception


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Politics is all about perception
		
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And there's me thinking the IFS was independent . Nobody appears to doubt them when they don't agree with the gUppyment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

And as far as the budget is concerned.  We now have a Â£4.4bn hole in the budget finances - well we don't yet because a Â£4.4bn reduction in welfare spending is still there - and has to be fulled somehow.  And so how is Osbo going to do that without changing something else like his tax giveaway?  It's a shambles.  

And IDS eventually cannot stomach a targeted measure such as this - most others over last few years being broad-brush.  And that's it - he cannot do another compromise and eventually the reality of Osbo's 'strivers and shirkers' obnoxious mantra - supported and trumpeted by the right wing press becomes made real. And IDS sees those obnoxious divisive words as being the antithesis of 'we are all in it together' - but the truth is out that the Tory government is ideologically driven, uncaring, lacking in compassion and only really bothered about 'those like us' and driving towards their ideological goals regardless.

And unfortunately there are many in the 'those like us' camp who would have not been discomfitted one little when Osbo made the PIP cut announcement in the budget statement.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as far as the budget is concerned.  We now have a Â£4.4bn hole in the budget finances - well we don't yet because a Â£4.4bn reduction in welfare spending is still there - and has to be fulled somehow.  And so how is Osbo going to do that without changing something else like his tax giveaway?  It's a shambles.  

And IDS eventually cannot stomach a targeted measure such as this - most others over last few years being broad-brush.  And that's it - he cannot do another compromise and eventually the reality of Osbo's 'strivers and shirkers' obnoxious mantra - supported and trumpeted by the right wing press becomes made real. And IDS sees those obnoxious divisive words as being the antithesis of 'we are all in it together' - but the truth is out that the Tory government is ideologically driven, uncaring, lacking in compassion and only really bothered about 'those like us' and driving towards their ideological goals regardless.

And unfortunately there are many in the 'those like us' camp who would have not been discomfitted one little when Osbo made the PIP cut announcement in the budget statement.
		
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A shambles is a mild understatement. We had the budget with pasty tax, which was overturned. Then we had the budget with tax credits that was also bounced. And now we have the budget with PiP's, which has also been overturned. Any company with a Financial Director the screwed up 3 times would be looking for a new FD.

I do hope this has also screwed his PM ambitions. The guy is a liability.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A shambles is a mild understatement. We had the budget with pasty tax, which was overturned. Then we had the budget with tax credits that was also bounced. And now we have the budget with PiP's, which has also been overturned. Any company with a Financial Director the screwed up 3 times would be looking for a new FD.

I do hope this has also screwed his PM ambitions. The guy is a liability.
		
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And first they pretend that the cut in PIP wasn't actually finalised - if so why the heck was it in the budget?  And now it's not going to be implemented.  Just like that.  Dropped as soon as they realise it's not going down too well - leaving a Â£4.4bn hole in the finances,  What sort of planned and objective-driven sort of budgeting is that?  

It would be funny if he wasn't the blessed Chancellor.  He in whom we entrust the financial management of the country - supported in full by his close buddy our dear leader - the Prime Minister.  Our dear leader being equally culpable and guilty of betraying his professed Christian principles (which he neatly seems to consider irrelevant to his decision making in respect of the poorest and most vulnerable of our society) and guilty of the mess through association.  Pity I need him to be making a positive and trusted case for staying in the EU.  Oh holy moly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

So Osbo's budget becomes a fudget, where a Â£4.4bn black hole us filled from public spending - no idea from where - just 'public spending' - so if he could have found Â£4.4bn from general public spending why did he feel it necessary to target a specific group of society - and one of the most vulnerable.  But he did.  And then miraculously he 'saw the light' and realised he'd got it wrong.  What a load of utter fudgery.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So Osbo's budget becomes a fudget, where a Â£4.4bn black hole us filled from public spending - no idea from where - just 'public spending' - so if he could have found Â£4.4bn from general public spending why did he feel it necessary to target a specific group of society - and one of the most vulnerable.  But he did.  And then miraculously he 'saw the light' and realised he'd got it wrong.  What a load of utter fudgery.
		
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Bit like the time Labour went for the pensioners.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Bit like the time Labour went for the pensioners.
		
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How like or unlike Osbo's fudgery actually is to Labour budget messes of the past - this is now - the Tories were elected on the basis of their economic competency - they crow about it enough - forever making statements about :Labour's competency.  And so far both budgets that Osborne has presented without the guiding and moderating hand of the LibDems have been a shambles.

And on that we are perhaps seeing what the LibDems actually did achieve when in coalition, they prevented the Tories doing what they clearly wished to do and so with Tax Credits and PIP we see Tory values writ large.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2016)

And so - here we are quite a few days after the fudget - and I am wondering whether or not the Â£4.4bn cut in PIP was actually just a cunning plan to get rid of IDS.  That Osborne hasn't apologised for making this mistake (as if it came as a surprise to him that a cut in such a benefit might cause significant concern to many) - and hasn't bothered filling the Â£4.4bn hole he now has in the budget - suggests that maybe he never intended to make the cut in the first place.  IDS gone - job done.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - here we are quite a few days after the fudget - and I am wondering whether or not the Â£4.4bn cut in PIP was actually just a cunning plan to get rid of IDS.  That Osborne hasn't apologised for making this mistake (as if it came as a surprise to him that a cut in such a benefit might cause significant concern to many) - and hasn't bothered filling the Â£4.4bn hole he now has in the budget - suggests that maybe he never intended to make the cut in the first place.  IDS gone - job done.
		
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Thats a good theory.  Maybe he has a big box of money hidden on the dark side of the moon as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2016)

And so I read today that Education Secretary Nicky Morgan is being urged by Tories to axe plans to force all schools to become academies and make sure it's not in the Queens speech.  You might imagine that the Tory Leadership hadn't bothered asking anyone who knows about these things before Georgie Boy announced it in the last budget.  And no doubt this will be portrayed as another example of the Tories 'listening to voters'.  Honestly - what a bunch.  Mind you next budget we could be out of the EU and have Bojo as PM and Gove as Chancellor (heaven help us - doesn't really bear thinking about)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so I read today that Education Secretary Nicky Morgan is being urged by Tories to axe plans to force all schools to become academies and make sure it's not in the Queens speech.  You might imagine that the Tory Leadership hadn't bothered asking anyone who knows about these things before Georgie Boy announced it in the last budget.  And no doubt this will be portrayed as another example of the Tories 'listening to voters'.  Honestly - what a bunch.  Mind you next budget we could be out of the EU and have Bojo as PM and Gove as Chancellor (heaven help us - doesn't really bear thinking about)
		
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And so the plan is abandoned - it's now an 'aspiration' but according to Eric Pickles it's not a U-turn or climb-down - oh no.  The plan is still that all schools will become academies - just that it'll take time.  But that isn't an aspiration - that's a plan.  

Just as well the 'every school an academy' plan wasn't in the Tory party GE15 manifesto - though as the manifest did talk about academies, and explicitly stated _Turn â€œfailing and coastingâ€ state secondary schools into academies_ the Tories never actually had a mandate for the  'every school an academy' policy.  In fact you might say by including plans for academies in their manifesto they were actually saying they had no such 'every school an academy' plan.


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