# Poppies and minutes silence



## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Bit of a stooshie going on with various football fans forums in Scotland given there was only two games in The SPFL that observed a minutes silence this weekend  passed.

My own team wore poppies on their shirt but there was no minutes silence, Ross County and St Johnstone have issued apologies for not doing anything and Hearts fans are generally disgusted at the lack of silence/wearing of poppies.

I know from the blanket coverage it receives from MoTD that English top flight football did have a minutes silence, so my question is this:

Should it be obligatory for professional football teams in The United Kingdom to have a minutes silence on Remembrance weekend, or should individual clubs have the be allowed to make their own choice?

Also, is anyone else fed up with the politicisation of Remembrance Sunday, by govt,football and TV?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2013)

I donate but don't normally wear a poppy. I did this morning for my stint in a charity shop.
The BBC have turned the whole thing into a Whitehall farce [anyone see Lady GaGa desperately trying to find somewhere for her poppy on Saturday night]

Hearts have a strong history with McRae's Battalion so I would expect them to do the right thing.

On occasions like this I am reminded of the old saying.
'May the lord save us from those who want to save us'.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2013)

I was at Selhurst Park on Saturday. They had a Forces guard of Honour with remembrance wreaths and the minutes silence was absolutely strictly observed by our fans as well as the visiting Everton supporters

Football fans can do the right thing when they want!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2013)

Strange when you think that the big hoo haa before Diana Spencer's funeral only kicked off when the SFA cancelled all of their Saturday games.


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## Snelly (Nov 11, 2013)

Yes clubs should observe a minutes silence and no, I am not fed up with the way it is shown.  The more awareness there is, the better.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 11, 2013)

Don't believe it should be obligatory... 

Just disappointed they choose not to join the rest wishing to show/indicate their support...

Would find it hard to criticise anyone wishing to show/indicate their support be they politicians, sportsmen or members of the media...


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 11, 2013)

I think its a good thing that sporting events do one before the game, It shouldn't be even something we question and its a shame that some clubs north of the border didn't bother. 

Question for anyone playing yesterday did you stop at 11am for 2 mins, We did I was stood on the 10th fairway at 11am.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 11, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Question for anyone playing yesterday did you stop at 11am for 2 mins, We did I was stood on the 10th fairway at 11am.
		
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My lad played yesterday morning [first time on a remembrance Sunday] and was pleased to be told two mins silence was to be observed at 11am and it duly was by all...


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 11, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			My lad played yesterday morning [first time on a remembrance Sunday] and was pleased to be told two mins silence was to be observed at 11am and it duly was by all...
		
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Nice to hear that :thup:


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Interesting replies,thank you.

My opinion? I'd want to join in with a minutes silence, but I wouldn't want it forced upon those who don't, for whatever reason.We've seen at football matches in the past up here Celtic fans refusing to acknowledge it and also Hearts fans refusing to do the same for The Pope.Recently we've seen soldiers at Ibrox signing sectarian songs whilst guests on the pitch and others doing nazi salutes in pictures published in the papers.Some people refuse to acknowledge Afghanistan and Iraq soldiers as the agenda behind them was miles away from the world wars.

Those men and women who died in the World Wars did so to protect democracy and the right of choice, but equally their service,bravery and life should be recognised.

Interesting that next year the government are going to 'celebrate' WWI...the start of the Great War...not the end, but the beginning...wtf?VE day,VJ day, absolutely, but the beginning of the war?Has it all been politicised to justify Afghanistan/Iraq?I don't think you were actually allowed to be on The BBC this weekend without a poppy, that's a dictatorship, specifically the opposite of what people died for.

Here's a quote from Harry Patch, the last person from the UK who was alive that served in the 1st World War;
"Politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder"

Or how about Harry Leslie Smith, who are any of us to say his opinion is wrong?We're all sprats in the company of a giant.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

I also see there was zealots in Westminster today jumping infront of cars who weren't observing the silence...they have totally missed the point of fighting for freedom.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

I worked in the RAF for 22 years until this year and had tours in both Afghan and Iraq. Guys out there are also put their lives on the line to make other peoples lives a better place.

Anyone who doesn't observe the mins silence or questions the poppy just need to remember that they have the choice because millions put their lives on the line and still to this day people put their lives on the line to give people the freedom they are used too. People and even the government treat our Armed Forces like pieces of **** yet they still do their job to the best of their ability. When firemen go on strike it's military guys ( who are getting paid less ) covering their asses !! 

We should be proud of our forces as they are the best in the world by a country mile. And we should all be proud of the work they do and have done in the past 

I informed my playing partners yesterday that we would be observing a mins silence and 11 and we did on the 6th green. They all agreed it was the right thing to do


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## beck9965 (Nov 11, 2013)

We had a two minute silence on the golf course yesterday.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We should be proud of our forces as they are the best in the world by a country mile. And we should all be proud of the work they do and have done in the past
		
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Well said :thup:


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## CMAC (Nov 11, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I think its a good thing that sporting events do one before the game, It shouldn't be even something we question and its a shame that some clubs north of the border didn't bother. 

*Question for anyone playing yesterday did you stop at 11am for 2 mins*, We did I was stood on the 10th fairway at 11am.
		
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Not yesterday but I did today at 11am:thup:


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I worked in the RAF for 22 years until this year and had tours in both Afghan and Iraq. Guys out there are also put their lives on the line to make other peoples lives a better place.

Anyone who doesn't observe the mins silence or questions the poppy just need to remember that they have the choice because millions put their lives on the line and still to this day people put their lives on the line to give people the freedom they are used too. People and even the government treat our Armed Forces like pieces of **** yet they still do their job to the best of their ability. When firemen go on strike it's military guys ( who are getting paid less ) covering their asses !! 

We should be proud of our forces as they are the best in the world by a country mile. And we should all be proud of the work they do and have done in the past 

I informed my playing partners yesterday that we would be observing a mins silence and 11 and we did on the 6th green. They all agreed it was the right thing to do
		
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Can you see why people might have an issue with the Iraq aspect of it?That was effectively an illegal war, and whilst its politicians that make the choice to go to war and you lot do the dying, can you see why people don't want to 'endorse' it?

Also, do you think it's acceptable for people to choose not to stay silent, whatever their reasons might be?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Don't see the need for football matches to observe a minute silence unless they are playing at 11am on the 11th Nov or at 11am on Remembrance Sunday.  This all seems to me to be more about football once again being pompous and self-important.  I don't know how long this has been going on but I think it is relatively new and more about football's view of itself than remembrance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Can you see why people might have an issue with the Iraq aspect of it?That was effectively an illegal war, and whilst its politicians that make the choice to go to war and you lot do the dying, can you see why people don't want to 'endorse' it?

Also, do you think it's acceptable for people to choose not to stay silent, whatever their reasons might be?
		
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Nowhere did I say people should "endorse" anything.

And I don't think it's acceptable if someone can't stay silent to remember millions who put their lives on the line to allow them to live in a free country.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't see the need for football matches to observe a minute silence unless they are playing at 11am on the 11th Nov or at 11am on Remembrance Sunday.  This all seems to me to be more about football once again being pompous and self-important.  I don't know how long this has been going on but I think it is relatively new and more about football's view of itself than remembrance.
		
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A silence for Remembrance Sunday has been going on for decades at sporting events


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nowhere did I say people should "endorse" anything.

And I don't think it's acceptable if someone can't stay silent to remember millions who put their lives on the line to allow them to live in a free country.
		
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Their silence would be endorsing the reasons for the illegal war...something very different to both WW's...is an opinion I've heard alot this weekend.

How far would you take it?Would you make it mandatory/Law to observe the silence?


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A silence for Remembrance Sunday has been going on for decades at sporting events
		
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Not at Scottish football matches, it's something relatively new iirc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Their silence would be endorsing the reasons for the illegal war...something very different to both WW's...is an opinion I've heard alot this weekend.

How far would you take it?Would you make it mandatory/Law to observe the silence?
		
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Remembrance Sunday isn't about the Iraq War or the reasons why - it's remembering people that put their lives on the line for the country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A silence for Remembrance Sunday has been going on for decades at sporting events
		
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At football matches - other than those actually being played on 11th November?  Are you sure?  You may well be correct but not something I really recall happening in the 60s, 70s, 80s


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At football matches - other than those actually being played on 11th November?  Are you sure?  You may well be correct but not something I really recall happening in the 60s, 70s, 80s
		
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I can remembering it happen all the way through the 80's and 90's


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Remembrance Sunday isn't about the Iraq War or the reasons why - it's remembering people that put their lives on the line for the country.
		
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Absolutely correct - those who oppose remembrance and poppies etc do so on the basis of a *deliberate *misinterpretation or misconstruing of what remembrance is actually about.  It is about people - not places or events.  Yes - oppose and protest against wars that have been and that are, as you are free to do  - but do not muddle up that opposition to remembrance of those who have lived, served and died - then or since.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 11, 2013)

Remembrance is nothing to do with the justification/glorification of any war...

Anzac day was/is an important part of my old villages calendar...

For the same reason of taking a short time each year to remember those that gave their lives for us...


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Remembrance Sunday isn't about the Iraq War or the reasons why - it's remembering people that put their lives on the line for the country.
		
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It isn't specifically about Iraq and Afghanistan or the reasons, I agree, but they're not excluded are they?It's been made a political football,a politically correct my way or the high way agenda, your with us or against us,wear a poppy and be quiet or you spit on the grave of dead soldiers.All dramatic but with grains of truth in there somewhere.

As a guy who served, did you agree with us going into Iraq, or do you now knowing it was a sham?Do you think we've made the UK safer or more dangerous with our actions in Afghanistan?Do you think that Remembrance day has been made a political event?


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## AmandaJR (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Remembrance Sunday isn't about the Iraq War or the reasons why - it's remembering people that put their lives on the line for the country.
		
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Totally agree. It's not about opposition to this war or that war but simply have the decency and kindness of human spirit to remember those who died serving this country. I find it incredibly disrespectful when people oppose the poppy or remembrance ceremonies. My father fought in the 2nd world war, my brother in the Falklands and my nephew in Afghanistan. All fortunately returned home safely but I always recall my Dad and tears in his eyes watching the festival of remembrance and now I do the same.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Remembrance Sunday isn't about the Iraq War or the reasons why - it's remembering people that put their lives on the line for the country.
		
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And it is about a time and a day - Remembrance Sunday and 11am on 11th November.  Anyone at a football match outside of that day and time - player, club or supporter - can pause for reflection with everyone else.  One of the main points of remembrance is that we all do it together - the power of remembrance is in the togetherness of the reflection - one reason why a time and a date was arrived at in the first place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			It isn't specifically about Iraq and Afghanistan or the reasons, I agree, but they're not excluded are they?It's been made a political football,a politically correct my way or the high way agenda, your with us or against us,wear a poppy and be quiet or you spit on the grave of dead soldiers.All dramatic but with grains of truth in there somewhere.

As a guy who served, did you agree with us going into Iraq, or do you now knowing it was a sham?Do you think we've made the UK safer or more dangerous with our actions in Afghanistan?Do you think that Remembrance day has been made a political event?
		
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I'll say it again - Remembrance Day is about people not events. If anyone wants to turn it into anything political then that shows a lot about them and also the sheep who can't think for themselves that follow.

As for Iraq and Afghan it wasn't my job to decide if it was right or wrong - I went there and did my job in the hope it made the people out there have a better chance in life with better medical and schooling facilities and helping get rid of a tyrant regime that murdered millions. 

Far too many people look for reasons why we shouldn't have gone to Iraq or Afghan without thinking or understanding the good work that has been done to make both countries a better place for the people who live there. Yes work that has been done out there has made the world including the uk a safer place - work that people wouldn't know went on and still goes on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it is about a time and a day - Remembrance Sunday and 11am on 11th November.  Anyone at a football match outside of that day and time - player, club or supporter - can pause for reflection with everyone else.  One of the main points of remembrance is that we all do it together - the power of remembrance is in the togetherness of the reflection - one reason why a time and a date was arrived at in the first place.
		
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Yes I agree with that but I have no prob with organisations also observing at the nearest opportunity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

AmandaJR said:



			Totally agree. It's not about opposition to this war or that war but simply have the decency and kindness of human spirit to remember those who died serving this country. I find it incredibly disrespectful when people oppose the poppy or remembrance ceremonies. My father fought in the 2nd world war, my brother in the Falklands and my nephew in Afghanistan. All fortunately returned home safely but I always recall my Dad and tears in his eyes watching the festival of remembrance and now I do the same.
		
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To which I'll add that I have often not bought a poppy - but I *always* pause for reflection on Remembrance Sunday and at 11am on 11/11 - as I did today.

Remembering specifically my grandfather who served in the Dardanelles and was shot - then after recuperation in Perthshire was posted to the fields of France - where he was shot again and gassed.  He survived but died relatively young in his mid-60s.  He had been called up by the Duke of Atholl to join the Scottish Horse (the Black Watch cavalry regiment) formed by the Duke.  He joined up even although he was too young - because he felt it was his duty.  My dad bobbed about the Mediterranean and Red Seas for 5yrs in merchant ships - avoiding german submarines.  He went to sea when he was 17.  It's what he felt he had to do.

Today I paused from work and remembered them both amongst the many.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can remembering it happen all the way through the 80's and 90's
		
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Indeed you may well be able - but I suspect not the early 80s or previously.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To which I'll add that I have often not bought a poppy - but I *always* pause for reflection on Remembrance Sunday and at 11am on 11/11 - as I did today.

Remembering specifically my grandfather who served in the Dardanelles and was shot - then after recuperation in Perthshire was posted to the fields of France - where he was shot again and gassed.  He survived but died relatively young in his mid-60s.  He had been called up by the Duke of Atholl to join the Scottish Horse (the Black Watch cavalry regiment) formed by the Duke.  He joined up even although he was too young - because he felt it was his duty.  My dad bobbed about the Mediterranean and Red Seas for 5yrs in merchant ships - avoiding german submarines.  He went to sea when he was 17.  It's what he felt he had to do.

Today I paused from work and remembered them both amongst the many.
		
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My grandad was a Marine in WW2 - my dad was in the RAF and went to the Falklands , my brother is in the Navy and I did 22 in the RAF - all of us are very proud of our military background.


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## Adi2Dassler (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'll say it again - Remembrance Day is about people not events. If anyone wants to turn it into anything political then that shows a lot about them and also the sheep who can't think for themselves that follow.

As for Iraq and Afghan it wasn't my job to decide if it was right or wrong - I went there and did my job in the hope it made the people out there have a better chance in life with better medical and schooling facilities and helping get rid of a tyrant regime that murdered millions. 

Far too many people look for reasons why we shouldn't have gone to Iraq or Afghan without thinking or understanding the good work that has been done to make both countries a better place for the people who live there. Yes work that has been done out there has made the world including the uk a safer place - work that people wouldn't know went on and still goes on.
		
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As I said initially, I always want to participate in the silence, and whilst I do not wear a poppy, I always contribute money to the Haig Poppy appeal.But I say that with the caveat of I'm thinking about the soldiers who put down their lives in whatever far flung place, but also all the innocent victims of war in these places.I still stand by the assertion that Iraq is no better off today, and that Afghanistan will become the Taliban strong hold within 2 years of withdrawal there.And my disgust of politicians who made the choice to invade these countries rises to boiling point each November.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I agree with that but I have no prob with organisations also observing at the nearest opportunity.
		
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And I don't see the point.  There is no need and it can give rise to the sort of unfortunate issues that have been mentioned on here when you try and do it outside of it's original time, place and context.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My grandad was a Marine in WW2 - my dad was in the RAF and went to the Falklands , my brother is in the Navy and I did 22 in the RAF - all of us are very proud of our military background.
		
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Respect :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			As I said initially, I always want to participate in the silence, and whilst I do not wear a poppy, I always contribute money to the Haig Poppy appeal.But I say that with the caveat of I'm thinking about the soldiers who put down their lives in whatever far flung place, but also all the innocent victims of war in these places.I still stand by the assertion that Iraq is no better off today, and that Afghanistan will become the Taliban strong hold within 2 years of withdrawal there.And my disgust of politicians who made the choice to invade these countries rises to boiling point each November.
		
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Have you been to Iraq ? Either before or after ? 

Same with Afghan ?

Are you able to get a picture on the ground to judge both places.

There will always be innocent victims of war and they are also remembered by people.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I don't see the point.  There is no need and it can give rise to the sort of unfortunate issues that have been mentioned on here when you try and do it outside of it's original time, place and context.
		
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And that's more down to the people that are incapable of understanding the reason why a minutes silence is given.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2013)

My father was a Black Watch man.
First across the Rhine, first into Germany and first to capture the concentration camps.
He never talked of the war.

As a child I will always remember him at our local Service standing quietly at the back whilst the British Legion guys marched passed with their medals. Ironically most of them had not seen active service. 
He threw his medals into the sea.

I also remember him saying that probably more 'auld yins' [1914-18] died after attending a cold wet November service than in the war itself.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 11, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My father was a Black Watch man.
First across the Rhine, first into Germany and first to capture the concentration camps.
He never talked of the war.

As a child I will always remember him at our local Service standing quietly at the back whilst the British Legion guys marched passed with their medals. Ironically most of them had not seen active service. 
He threw his medals into the sea.

I also remember him saying that probably more 'auld yins' [1914-18] died after attending a cold wet November service than in the war itself.
		
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Brilliant story. Sounds like my Dad who never spoke about his time in Burma apart from burning leeches off with his fag! As a child I asked him if he ever shot a German (confused child!) and he said "no love - I was a rotten shot so it would have been an accident"...


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			As I said initially, I always want to participate in the silence, and whilst I do not wear a poppy, I always contribute money to the Haig Poppy appeal.But I say that with the caveat of I'm thinking about the soldiers who put down their lives in whatever far flung place, but also all the innocent victims of war in these places.I still stand by the assertion that Iraq is no better off today, and that Afghanistan will become the Taliban strong hold within 2 years of withdrawal there.And my disgust of politicians who made the choice to invade these countries rises to boiling point each November.
		
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You don't seem to get the point that Remembrance Sunday is nothing to do with the reason that people went to war, it's solely about the people who, through no choice of their own, gave their lives fighting in the various conflicts. All of the conflicts would have been unnecessary had rational people sorted out the mess before the need to take up arms.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Let's not forget that a long with the minutes silence all those shirts with the poppies on will be auctioned off with the proceeds going to TRBL, a charity which helps all service personnel unlike a well supported other service charity.


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## sweatysock41 (Nov 11, 2013)

As an ex serviceman I always attend the Armistice Day service and if anyone who has been to it will tell you the silence is not just to reflect on those who have lost their lives in the service of their country but also all those who have suffered as a result of war. 

War is an act that should only be taken as a last resort but as humans (even politicians are human) that judgement is sometimes wrong and misguided.  

Please don't forget, it was the predecessors of the servicemen and women in places like Afghanistan that fought for your right to speak against what the current forces may be sent to do.
I will speak out against anything I consider unjust in the decisions to send in troops, but I will never forget those who suffer as a result of the decisions - both servicemen and civilians, and will always pause to reflect both on Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day itself.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 11, 2013)

sweatysock41 said:



			As an ex serviceman I always attend the Armistice Day service and if anyone who has been to it will tell you the silence is not just to reflect on those who have lost their lives in the service of their country but also all those who have suffered as a result of war. 

War is an act that should only be taken as a last resort but as humans (even politicians are human) that judgement is sometimes wrong and misguided.  

Please don't forget, it was the predecessors of the servicemen and women in places like Afghanistan that fought for your right to speak against what the current forces may be sent to do.
I will speak out against anything I consider unjust in the decisions to send in troops, but I will never forget those who suffer as a result of the decisions - both servicemen and civilians, and will always pause to reflect both on Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day itself.
		
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Absolutely agree 100%.

In a democracy we can all disagree with political decisions made on our behalf and can express our disagreement. However, the military forces are obliged to carry out those actions whether they, as individuals, agree or not.

The rest of us should, therefore, never forget sacrifices made in our name.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 11, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I was at Selhurst Park on Saturday. They had a Forces guard of Honour with remembrance wreaths and the minutes silence was absolutely strictly observed by our fans as well as the visiting Everton supporters

Football fans can do the right thing when they want!
		
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As they did at Stamford Bridge; the Chelsea pensioners were out with the teams and the silence was also strictly observed.

I would never want to enforce the two minute silence on anybody because then it loses any meaning as an act of respect in my opinion.  It's not much to ask of anybody to honour the sacrifices that many, both living and dead, made for the freedoms we now enjoy.  I know it's a job I could never have done and I take my hat off to all those who have served.


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## Dodger (Nov 11, 2013)

I really don't see the need for the minutes silence at football games.There is a time and place for remembrance and at a game of football isn't the place for it IMO.

For those who disagree can I ask why it hasn't been shoehorned into other sporting events like the horse racing,golf,darts hell even theatre on the Saturday afternoon.

As per usual Ali my team are getting pelters as Ross County decided for whatever reason not to hold one on Saturday and it's being surmised that was due to our 'history' despite the fact last year at McDairmaid it was observed as it should be.The main ones greetin are our 'friends' across the city who IMO have turned what should be a time to remember into a total sash bash over the last few years and pay their 'respects' in a way that I can't agree is the way those who fell should be remembered.

There is a time and a place to remember and football stadiums on a Saturday isn't one of them for me.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2013)

Remembrance Day is a time I think about the poor soles that gave their bodies and lives in many wars but especially WW1.  The terrible waste of brave lives for what was no more than political gesturing by the ruling classes. 

I tend to think on some of the lines from 'The Green Fields of France'  especially:  "Here in this graveyard that's still no-mans land the rows of white crosses in mute witness stand, to mans blind indifference to his fellow man and a whole generation lies butchered and damned"

[video=youtube;p_mBJgsaxlY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_mBJgsaxlY[/video]


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 11, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I really don't see the need for the minutes silence at football games.There is a time and place for remembrance and at a game of football isn't the place for it IMO.

For those who disagree can I ask why it hasn't been shoehorned into other sporting events like the horse racing,golf,darts hell even theatre on the Saturday afternoon.

As per usual Ali my team are getting pelters as Ross County decided for whatever reason not to hold one on Saturday and it's being surmised that was due to our 'history' despite the fact last year at McDairmaid it was observed as it should be.The main ones greetin are our 'friends' across the city who IMO have turned what should be a time to remember into a total sash bash over the last few years and pay their 'respects' in a way that I can't agree is the way those who fell should be remembered.

There is a time and a place to remember and football stadiums on a Saturday isn't one of them for me.
		
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Only one sporting body in the UK continues to respect Remembrance Day.

ACU, the governing body of Motorcycle sport in UK, still does not sanction any events for that day and has not for over 90 years.


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## Dodger (Nov 11, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Only one sporting body in the UK continues to respect Remembrance Day.

ACU, the governing body of Motorcycle sport in UK, still does not sanction any events for that day and has not for over 90 years.
		
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Any idea why?  And do you think this is a poor stance or not by the other sporting bodies?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2013)

Dodger said:



			There is a time and a place to remember and football stadiums on a Saturday isn't one of them for me.
		
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Totally agree with that.
The Sunday Service has been demeaned and lost a lot of it's meaning over the last 10 years by people who do not have a clue what it is all about. And worst of all, people trying to seek commercial gain out of it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 11, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Any idea why?  And do you think this is a poor stance or not by the other sporting bodies?
		
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I believe that it was originally as a mark of respect for the number of Despatch Riders killed in WW 1, many of whom had been competitive motor-cyclists.
Subsequently it was felt that forsaking one day's sport was not a lot to ask as a mark of remembrance for all who had served.


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## stevie_r (Nov 11, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I really don't see the need for the minutes silence at football games.There is a time and place for remembrance and at a game of football isn't the place for it IMO.

For those who disagree can I ask why it hasn't been shoehorned into other sporting events like the horse racing,golf,darts hell even theatre on the Saturday afternoon.

As per usual Ali my team are getting pelters as Ross County decided for whatever reason not to hold one on Saturday and it's being surmised that was due to our 'history' despite the fact last year at McDairmaid it was observed as it should be.The main ones greetin are our 'friends' across the city who IMO have turned what should be a time to remember into a total sash bash over the last few years and pay their 'respects' in a way that I can't agree is the way those who fell should be remembered.

There is a time and a place to remember and football stadiums on a Saturday isn't one of them for me.
		
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Perhaps the Staggies were keen to avoid something like this:


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Enforced silences don't work imo because it is impossible to expect everyone to respect the same things.


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## Dodger (Nov 11, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Perhaps the Staggies were keen to avoid something like this:






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That has been dealt with and covered and thankfully last year at McDairmid it was observed the way it should be.

Any more petty points to be scored Stevie?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Enforced silences don't work imo because it is impossible to expect everyone to respect the same things.
		
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I think some things I do expect people to respect. People putting their lives on the line for our freedom is one of those


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 11, 2013)

We had an announcement at work at 11 for two minutes' silence and in the middle of it, some total retard came up and started asking me a question.   He then repeated it when I ignored him.   Even when the silence ended and he had everyone staring at him, he still didn't think he'd done anything wrong.    Still, if you don't have *******s in life, you don't realise who the good people are.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think some things I do expect people to respect. People putting their lives on the line for our freedom is one of those
		
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But a lot of the dead military lost lives as we tried to enforce our values on those who didn't want it in the first place or as we supported fairly despicable regimes. It's not as cut and dry as you make out and many will not forgive or forget that not all those who died did so for a good cause.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			But a lot of the dead military lost lives as we tried to enforce our values on those who didn't want it in the first place or as we supported fairly despicable regimes. It's not as cut and dry as you make out and many will not forgive or forget that not all those who died did so for a good cause.
		
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I presume as you said we, you include yourself in these enforced values. As a member of the army for 22 yrs and been the member of a regiment that lost some great lads in Iraq and Afganistan, I am proud to be able to give as many minutes as it takes to remember those who paid the ultra at sacrifice. For service personnel it is cut and dried. The people that this country voted for send us off to do a job and we do it to the best of our ability. Whether we feel that Iraq was a con and Afganistan an unwinable trip never enters into the equation.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			I presume as you said we, you include yourself in these enforced values. As a member of the army for 22 yrs and been the member of a regiment that lost a some great lads in Iraq and Afganistan, I am proud to be able to give as many minutes as it takes to remember those who paid the ultra at sacrifice. For service personnel it is cut and dried. The people that this country voted for send us off to do a job and we do it to the best of our ability. Whether we feel that Iraq was a con and Afganistan an unwinable trip never enters into the equation.
		
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I personally don't wear a poppy but I do understand and support the silence but I do question its use in things such as football and the like. 

And I didn't even mean Iraq and Afghanistan, I meant further back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			But a lot of the dead military lost lives as we tried to enforce our values on those who didn't want it in the first place or as we supported fairly despicable regimes. It's not as cut and dry as you make out and many will not forgive or forget that not all those who died did so for a good cause.
		
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How far back are you talking here ?


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How far back are you talking here ?
		
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As far back as WWI, as Remembrance is generally seen to recognise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			As far back as WWI, as Remembrance is generally seen to recognise.
		
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Have I missed something that went on during WW1 that your post covers ?


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have I missed something that went on during WW1 that your post covers ?
		
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British soldiers' involvement in places such as Aden, Northern Ireland, Malaya, Cyprus and others have all been called into question.

Like I said, I support Remembrance but it shouldn't be enforced on a single person.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			British soldiers' involvement in places such as Aden, Northern Ireland, Malaya, Cyprus and others have all been called into question.

Like I said, I support Remembrance but it shouldn't be enforced on a single person.
		
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Soldiers get questioned about actions during every conflict. 

But again it's missing the point of Remembrance Day. 

When the country needed protecting they were there - when our freedom was at risk they were there and millions died protecting that freedom - that's where the respect comes in and it's those actions that IMO should be respected by us all.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			British soldiers' involvement in places such as Aden, Northern Ireland, Malaya, Cyprus and others have all been called into question.

Like I said, I support Remembrance but it shouldn't be enforced on a single person.
		
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you could be about to throw open a big bag of worms here. You have just come up with 4 areas of conflict where governments requested assistance. I presume you think that we decide over a few beers in the NAAFI which country to pick on next.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Soldiers get questioned about actions during every conflict. 

But again it's missing the point of Remembrance Day. 

When the country needed protecting they were there - when our freedom was at risk they were there and millions died protecting that freedom - that's where the respect comes in and it's those actions that IMO should be respected by us all.
		
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They are respected for those actions but you're still failing to see that Remembrance Day isn't about freedom it's about those who died serving our armed forces. Not all who die serving our armed forces are worthy of respect or remembering, although the vast majority are. Some choose not to observe a blanket remembrance especially when the action itself isn't worthy or the actions of some individuals isn't worthy.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			you could be about to throw open a big bag of worms here. You have just come up with 4 areas of conflict where governments requested assistance. I presume you think that we decide over a few beers in the NAAFI which country to pick on next.
		
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Why are you directing this at me? I've said I support the cause. I can also see why others don't. It's a painful stain on my own country's recent history.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			They are respected for those actions but you're still failing to see that Remembrance Day isn't about freedom it's about those who died serving our armed forces. Not all who die serving our armed forces are worthy of respect or remembering, although the vast majority are. Some choose not to observe a blanket remembrance especially when the action itself isn't worthy or the actions of some individuals isn't worthy.
		
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Best not to judge the actions of a man in battle unless your there with him and can set them in the right context.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			Best not to judge the actions of a man in battle unless your there with him and can set them in the right context.
		
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Best not to excuse terrible actions because the greater good (which is in itself debatable depending on your side in any conflict) is achieved.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			They are respected for those actions but you're still failing to see that Remembrance Day isn't about freedom it's about those who died serving our armed forces. Not all who die serving our armed forces are worthy of respect or remembering, although the vast majority are. Some choose not to observe a blanket remembrance especially when the action itself isn't worthy or the actions of some individuals isn't worthy.
		
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And they died serving our country regardless of any politics people want to bring in and question

Serving Armed Forces are protecting us all and providing our freedom and others on a daily basis. 

So yes I believe in a blanket respect and I will continue to show it.


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## Kellfire (Nov 11, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So yes I believe in a blanket respect.
		
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Then you don't understand what these very men are fighting for.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Why are you directing this at me? I've said I support the cause. I can also see why others don't. It's a painful stain on my own country's recent history.
		
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With something as complicated as NI recent history I think we are going to have to go a lot further back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Then you don't understand what these very men are fighting for.
		
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You will have to point out which very men you mean - as a person who has served 22 years and a family steeped in military history i have witnessed first hand the actions people do that earn the respect I believe they deserve.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Best not to excuse terrible actions because the greater good (which is in itself debatable depending on your side in any conflict) is achieved.
		
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May be a habit I picked up on my 4 trips to your little bit of UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Dodger said:



			There is a time and a place to remember and football stadiums on a Saturday isn't one of them for me.
		
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I agree - other when a match is on 11/11 or Remembrance Sunday and spans 11am


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Totally agree with that.
The Sunday Service has been demeaned and lost a lot of it's meaning over the last 10 years by people who do not have a clue what it is all about. And worst of all, people trying to seek commercial gain out of it.
		
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And agree with this also - with such as (or particularly) football making an 'event' out of it.  Wrong - completely wrong.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 11, 2013)

Unfortunately this thread has deteriorated badly, several members reported posts which have now been removed and an infraction issued. Thread closed


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