# Match Play - Rules & Tips



## ShriekingSheet (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi Guys,

Ahead of the interclub season, I'm putting together a piece for my club on some handy rules info and also tips specifically for match play. 

I've come up with the below as a start, and was wondering if you could give me your expert thoughts on what I've said, and if there's anything you'd add. Our senior players are coming back to me with ideas, and anicdotal bits on mistakes that can be made in a match. I thought here would be a good place to gather such knowledge, and would make a good read for everyone.

Provisional Ball / Unplayable Ball
Your opponent slices a drive into trees. He plays a provisional up the fairway.
The first ball is found deep into the trees, but is completely unplayable, so he goes to play the provisional.
He's incorrect. He needs to go back to the tee and play his third shot. Once the original ball is found, the provisional is disregarded. Your three options when a ball is unplayable are (a) drop two club lengths from where it lies, (b) go back as far as you like on the line of the flag and ball or (c) return to the spot last played from, all under penalty of one stroke.  

Similar scenario, roles reversed - you slice into the trees, and blast a provisional up the middle. It's highly likely the ball will be completely unplayable, if found. You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway.

If in Doubt
If there is any kind of uncertainty during your match, don't confuse the situation by guessing or debating rules with your opponent. Pause the match, call people through if needs be, and get a hold of your team manager, or an official. There is no rush, and don't feel under pressure to accept what they're player or manager says. Keep calm and wait for back-up.

Gamesmanship
My non-rules advice would be that there are many misconceptions around "tactics" in match play. Many think there's devious ways of unsettling someone by things such as giving them a generous gimme on the first, then not giving a few short ones later. This is tripe. You're a thousand times more likely to put yourself off juggling all that stuff in your head. 

Yappers
Also, while these matches are more serious, and must be treated so, you do not need to totally change your demeanor. If you are usually chatty, talk to the guy and his caddie. Don't feel that you need to be quiet and serious if that's not what you're used to. On the other hand, if an opponent is too talkative for your liking, walk your own path, get your own space and leave him to his own devices. You aren't obliged to chat. Do whatever it takes to get yourself comfortable.


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## bobmac (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi SS,
      The best advice I can give you is to

1. Ask your pro to put on a rules night or a rules quiz night where you could post questions in advance.
There's nothing better than seeing the rules demonstrated in a relaxed atmosphere rather than a shouting match out on the course.
2. Make sure all the team carry a rule book.
Then if your have a disagreement with the other team, hand them the book and ask them to show you the ruling.
Remember, no-one expects you to know all the rules


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## Robobum (Dec 2, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
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Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.


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## DCB (Dec 2, 2009)

Already addressed by Bobmac and Robobum


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd have thought most players taking part in these sort of matches will be well versed in matchplay nuances and all should have an understanding of the rules regarding provisionals etc (bit worrying about how they deal with these scenarios in club competitions otherwise). To be honest I'd be a little put out being given these even if it is meant in a light hearted way and would be wondering why you thought I needed to be told how to conduct myself and what tactics to use.


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## viscount17 (Dec 2, 2009)

Homer, you may not but there are a lot of complete beginners around for whom many clubs make no effort.

here's one that 'allegedly' happened in today's medal.

A, B & C approach the green, two balls are clearly visible, the third is believed to have gone in the greenside pond.
A&B start fishing for the ball, B being convinced the ball is his. C goes onto the green to mark his ball, first is not his and before he reaches the second, also not his, B has replayed his shot, not declaring a provisional. On finding that his original ball is on the green B proceeds to putt that ball out and pick up his 'replacement'.

Don't know what they called, I reckon DQ


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2009)

Steve,

I take your point regarding the rules although I still think carrying a rule book and to some degree learning by your mistakes is a better way. I wouldn't be overly thrilled though to be told how I should behave with regards to "yappers" or gamesmanship and think it is a little over zealous. By all means have an easy to undestand bit of A4 with the common rules mis-conceptions but leave it at that


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## Pants (Dec 2, 2009)

A.  Similar scenario, roles reversed - you slice into the trees, and blast a provisional up the middle. It's highly likely the ball will be completely unplayable, if found. You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway.


B.  If there is any kind of uncertainty during your match, don't confuse the situation by guessing or debating rules with your opponent. Pause the match, call people through if needs be, and get a hold of your team manager, or an official. There is no rush, and don't feel under pressure to accept what they're player or manager says. Keep calm and wait for back-up.
		
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A.  You cannot declare a ball lost.  If you declare and play a provisional, and your original ball is found by you, your partner/opponent, your respective caddies or anyone else, then that ball is still in play.

I suggest you read up on the rules to confirm this and also to find the way around it.  

B.  You could be waiting hours for a suitable person to become available - and how are you going to call them in for a ruling?  

Again, read the rules.  There is provision for finishing out the hole to both your and your opponent's understanding and get it sorted when you get back to the clubhouse.


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## Imurg (Dec 2, 2009)

A.  You cannot declare a ball lost.  If you declare and play a provisional, and your original ball is found by you, your partner/opponent, your respective caddies or anyone else, then that ball is still in play.
		
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You can decalre a ball lost at any time on any part of the course. If you declare it lost you can play another ball from the same spot under penalty. You don't have to go and look for it - but you don't play a provisional ball. You take the penalty and play again. As soon as you've hit it the original ball is no longer in play.


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2009)

If you hit 3 off the tee and have failed to properly declare that shot as a provisional, you HAVE declared the first ball lost and the third shot is in play.

"I'll hit another" is not a declaration that you are hitting a provisional.


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## Robobum (Dec 3, 2009)

You can decalre a ball lost at any time on any part of the course. .....
		
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Errrr, no you can't. The act of you putting another ball in play without declaring it as a provisional will render it the ball in play. 

Saying "I declare that one lost" is a waste of breath as it means nothing in the context of the rules.


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## Imurg (Dec 3, 2009)

Yeah ok same meat different gravy - I didn't phrase it properly but you get the gist of it. As you say, the act of playing another without declaring it a provisional "loses" the original.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 3, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
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Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.
		
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Robobum, no need for the smart reply, and as Imurg says, of course you can declare a ball lost at any time.

If you couldn't, people would have to look for every ball in every kind of terrain for the full 5 minutes, before it became automatically lost as per the rules!

Which of course is not the case. Where the ball is in play but obviously has little chance of being found, guys usually have a quick scour for the first ball, but after a couple of minutes will sensibly say "not to worry guys, I'll continue with the second ball".

You obviouly know your rules, and you worried me by pulling me up on that, but I have to say I think you're off the mark. What do you think?


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## Twire (Dec 3, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
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Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.
		
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Robobum, no need for the smart reply, and as Imurg says, of course you can declare a ball lost at any time.

If you couldn't, people would have to look for every ball in every kind of terrain for the full 5 minutes, before it became automatically lost as per the rules!

Which of course is not the case. Where the ball is in play but obviously has little chance of being found, guys usually have a quick scour for the first ball, but after a couple of minutes will sensibly say "not to worry guys, I'll continue with the second ball".

You obviouly know your rules, and you worried me by pulling me up on that, but I have to say I think you're off the mark. What do you think?
		
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Picture this...

If I'm playing you in a match. Off the tee you stuff one out right into cabbage, you then play a provisional straight down the middle. We then get to where you think the first ball is, and you don't like the look of the cabbage, so you say "I declare that ball lost". On your way to your ball in the middle of the fairway, I'm still looking, and find you first ball......Sorry but you have to play your first ball.

You cannot declare a ball lost.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 3, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
Click to expand...

Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.
		
Click to expand...

Robobum, no need for the smart reply, and as Imurg says, of course you can declare a ball lost at any time.

If you couldn't, people would have to look for every ball in every kind of terrain for the full 5 minutes, before it became automatically lost as per the rules!

Which of course is not the case. Where the ball is in play but obviously has little chance of being found, guys usually have a quick scour for the first ball, but after a couple of minutes will sensibly say "not to worry guys, I'll continue with the second ball".

You obviouly know your rules, and you worried me by pulling me up on that, but I have to say I think you're off the mark. What do you think?
		
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Picture this...

If I'm playing you in a match. Off the tee you stuff one out right into cabbage, you then play a provisional straight down the middle. We then get to where you think the first ball is, and you don't like the look of the cabbage, so you say "I declare that ball lost". On your way to your ball in the middle of the fairway, I'm still looking, and find you first ball......Sorry but you have to play your first ball.

You cannot declare a ball lost.
		
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You're absolutely correct.

And acting like that will really give you an edge, because if I was playing against someone who did that, purely so they could send me trudging back to the tee, I'd shake your hand right there and head for a shower.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 3, 2009)

You could be waiting hours for a suitable person to become available - and how are you going to call them in for a ruling?  

Again, read the rules.  There is provision for finishing out the hole to both your and your opponent's understanding and get it sorted when you get back to the clubhouse.
		
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Guys, there's some serious hostility here. I wouldn't mind, but you're wrong Pants. I have read the rules, and while you can finish with two balls and check the rule later in Stroke Play, this provision is not available for Match Play. Have a read of it and let us know.

On the first point, we have officials from the Golfing Union at virtually all of our Interclub events. They come out in a buggy, it's really no big deal.


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## Twire (Dec 3, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
Click to expand...

Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.
		
Click to expand...

Robobum, no need for the smart reply, and as Imurg says, of course you can declare a ball lost at any time.

If you couldn't, people would have to look for every ball in every kind of terrain for the full 5 minutes, before it became automatically lost as per the rules!

Which of course is not the case. Where the ball is in play but obviously has little chance of being found, guys usually have a quick scour for the first ball, but after a couple of minutes will sensibly say "not to worry guys, I'll continue with the second ball".

You obviouly know your rules, and you worried me by pulling me up on that, but I have to say I think you're off the mark. What do you think?
		
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Picture this...

If I'm playing you in a match. Off the tee you stuff one out right into cabbage, you then play a provisional straight down the middle. We then get to where you think the first ball is, and you don't like the look of the cabbage, so you say "I declare that ball lost". On your way to your ball in the middle of the fairway, I'm still looking, and find you first ball......Sorry but you have to play your first ball.

You cannot declare a ball lost.
		
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You're absolutely correct.

And acting like that will really give you an edge, because if I was playing against someone who did that, purely so they could send me trudging back to the tee, I'd shake your hand right there and head for a shower.
		
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Why would you be going back to the tee? You just play the ball where it's found.

The scenario was just hypothetical to show you that you cannot declare a ball lost


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 3, 2009)

@ Twire (I'll stop quoting because it's gotten too long)

The premise was that the ball was deep in trees where neither two club lengths, nor going back on the line of the flag would do any good. 

As I said, you are correct. But it can just get a bit silly, letting the rules descend into farce like that. Eg: while you're looking for my ball, I run over and hit my 4th shot, so if you find it, it's still lost. Correct. But ridiculous behaviour.


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## Smiffy (Dec 3, 2009)

And acting like that will really give you an edge, because if I was playing against someone who did that, purely so they could send me trudging back to the tee, I'd shake your hand right there and head for a shower.
		
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But he's not sending you trudging back to the tee, although that would be one of your options.
You could declare it unplayable and drop within two club lengths of where it was, or you could go back as far as you wanted keeping the point where the ball was lying in line with you and the flag. Either of the three options will cost you one stroke.
Looking at it the other way, say you dropped within two club lengths, found a nice lie and smacked a 5 wood or hybrid 100 yards past your second ball into the middle of the fairway. You would now have the advantage because you are lying further up the fairway for three. I can't see how you could take offence at that?


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## Pants (Dec 3, 2009)

You could be waiting hours for a suitable person to become available - and how are you going to call them in for a ruling?  

Again, read the rules.  There is provision for finishing out the hole to both your and your opponent's understanding and get it sorted when you get back to the clubhouse.
		
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Guys, there's some serious hostility here. I wouldn't mind, but you're wrong Pants. I have read the rules, and while you can finish with two balls and check the rule later in Stroke Play, this provision is not available for Match Play. Have a read of it and let us know.

On the first point, we have officials from the Golfing Union at virtually all of our Interclub events. They come out in a buggy, it's really no big deal.
		
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No hostility mate, just trying to clarify things for all readers of this thread.

What I was alluding to but badly put was....

In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorised representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay.  The Committee may consider a claim only if the player making the claim notifies his opponent (i) that he is making a claim, (ii) of the facts of the situation and (iii) that he wants a ruling.  The claim must be made before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green.
A later claim may not be considered by the Committee, unless it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and he had been given wrong information (Rules 6-2a and 9) by an opponent.
Once the result of the match has been officially announced, a later claim may not be considered by the Committee, unless it is satisfied that the opponent knew he was giving wrong information.
"Extract from Decisions"

At your level of matchplay golf it's good that you have officials from the Golfing Union on hand to sort out any rulings.  For us mere mortals, there is rarely anyone available to consult on rulings during a match or even afterwards.

Just to reiterate on the other point, a player *cannot* declare a ball lost.  If a provisional is played then you run the risk of the first being found - whether or not you want anyone to look for it.  If you don't fancy this risk, just play another from the same spot without saying anything. Don't even say something like "I'll play another".  That ball then becomes the ball in play.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 3, 2009)

@ Pants - Read what you just posted. Where does it back up what you said earlier?

You pulled me up earlier, saying...

"Again, read the rules. There is provision for finishing out the hole to both your and your opponent's understanding and get it sorted when you get back to the clubhouse."

You're wrong here. You can't finish a hole according to both understandings in Match Play and sort it out later. Your confusing it with Stroke Play where you can do so.

It's a bit much to say to someone "read the rules" and then get the rule wrong yourself.


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## DCB (Dec 3, 2009)

C'mon Gents, t'is the season of goodwill to all men. Lets agree to differ on this one.


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## Robobum (Dec 3, 2009)

....... You can simply declare it lost before looking, and play the provisional from the middle of the fairway......
		
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Should this be in the quirky made up rules that are played between mates thread?? 

You need  THIS and  THIS then tell them to enjoy it.
		
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Robobum, no need for the smart reply, and as Imurg says, of course you can declare a ball lost at any time.

If you couldn't, people would have to look for every ball in every kind of terrain for the full 5 minutes, before it became automatically lost as per the rules!

Which of course is not the case. Where the ball is in play but obviously has little chance of being found, guys usually have a quick scour for the first ball, but after a couple of minutes will sensibly say "not to worry guys, I'll continue with the second ball".

You obviouly know your rules, and you worried me by pulling me up on that, but I have to say I think you're off the mark. What do you think?
		
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I was trying to make light of your error Sheet hence the smiley, I could have just been straight to the point and said "NO, that is not the rule and you are wrong" if that's what you prefer?? 

The rest of your post I have quoted above is wrong, wrong and wrong again 

As Imurg said, he know's that a ball CANNOT be declared lost but it is your action of putting another ball in play (without declaring it a provisional) that renders it (effectively) lost.

There is nothing that says you HAVE to search for 5mins before putting another ball in play.

They should only be saying "I'll continue with the 2nd ball" if they have declared that 2nd ball as a provisional in the first place. Once they play that 2nd ball from a point nearer to the hole than where the 1st ball was lost it becomes the ball in play.

Sorry if you view this reply as "smart" but you asked for advice on an aide memoire to give to your team however the notes you quoted were incorrect. IMHO it would be better to get it right in the first instance than have some embarassing situations out on the course.


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## sneakyweeone (Dec 3, 2009)

Sadly this whole thread shows the weakness of golf:too many rules for a game which should be simple hit the ball a few times and get it in the hole.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 4, 2009)

I was trying to make light of your error Sheet hence the smiley, I could have just been straight to the point and said "NO, that is not the rule and you are wrong" if that's what you prefer?? 

The rest of your post I have quoted above is wrong, wrong and wrong again 

As Imurg said, he know's that a ball CANNOT be declared lost but it is your action of putting another ball in play (without declaring it a provisional) that renders it (effectively) lost.

There is nothing that says you HAVE to search for 5mins before putting another ball in play.

They should only be saying "I'll continue with the 2nd ball" if they have declared that 2nd ball as a provisional in the first place. Once they play that 2nd ball from a point nearer to the hole than where the 1st ball was lost it becomes the ball in play.

Sorry if you view this reply as "smart" but you asked for advice on an aide memoire to give to your team however the notes you quoted were incorrect. IMHO it would be better to get it right in the first instance than have some embarassing situations out on the course. 

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Your hung up on the "declare it lost" phrase I used - which is irrelevent to my point, and admittedly a poor choice of words. 

The fact is, if your ball goes somewhere you'd rather not find it, and you have a good provisional in place, it can be a good (legal) approach not to look for the original. I fully accept your point that speaking the words does not make your ball lost - but by not looking for it, in reality, you are declaring the ball lost. 

I'm just being practical here and you're complicating things unecessarily with the details of the rules, though technically correct, don't really affect the scenario**. So there's my point simplified, how is that wrong, wrong and wrong again?

I'll throw another permiatation into the debate 

The same original ball into helpless jungle. The provisional this time, hooks slightly and ends up behind a tree with no route to the green. 
In this case, I would spend all 5 mins looking for the original ball, as finding it would give me the opportunity to replay 3 from the tee (accepting the premise that either dropping option will not suffice to get out of trouble). As the provisional is in bad shape, finding the first ball and having another crack at it in three is a good option. 

As opposed to our first scenario, where the provisional was down the fairway and to go back to the tee would be to risk ending up somewhere worse.

Good debate so far. I'm new to the forum so apologies if I misread your tone.


**unless your opponent wants to run off into the woods to find your ball for you


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## SammmeBee (Dec 4, 2009)

I match play (proper type as Shreiking is talking about) - I would not bother with the provisional, go look for the ball, then if you can't find it walk back to the tee and leave your opponent twiddling his thumbs in the middle of the fairway....

I don't think the English (of which I am one) on here have an understanding on how serious the GUI cup competitions are taken in Ireland, with practice rounds, uniforms, caddies, hotels all being paid for by the club - there is nothing to compare in the UK really....


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## DCB (Dec 4, 2009)

**unless your opponent wants to run off into the woods to find your ball for you  

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Well since it's matchplay, if I was your opponent, I'd certainly have a look for it if I'd got a line on it as it entered the boondai


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 4, 2009)

**unless your opponent wants to run off into the woods to find your ball for you  

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Well since it's matchplay, if I was your opponent, I'd certainly have a look for it if I'd got a line on it as it entered the boondai  

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Haha, as I mentioned earlier, it'd be a race from the tee to see if I could strike my fourth before you could find the ball! That's why golfers originally wore sprinters spikes you know


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 4, 2009)

I match play (proper type as Shreiking is talking about) - I would not bother with the provisional, go look for the ball, then if you can't find it walk back to the tee and leave your opponent twiddling his thumbs in the middle of the fairway....

I don't think the English (of which I am one) on here have an understanding on how serious the GUI cup competitions are taken in Ireland, with practice rounds, uniforms, caddies, hotels all being paid for by the club - there is nothing to compare in the UK really....
		
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Well rules-is-rules, but yeah I had a feeling that was the case in the UK (I posted in the lounge forum). It is great to pull on the club colours and very cool that anyone of almost any level can compete. 
One of the biggest ones is a knock-out foursomes matchplay, 5 pairs, 3 matches home and 2 away, or vice versa. The great thing is, it's minium combined of 14 (no shots give). So you can have a +2 & 16, playing a 6 & 8 in a match. Really inclusive and interesting stuff.


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## Robobum (Dec 4, 2009)

Sorry Sheet, you obviously never explained yourself very well in the previous posts and didn't intend things to be read as you had written them. You seem to be happy with you knowledge of the rules and hopefully you will be able to explain them to your team a little better than on here. 

Is golf the only sport where you can be accused of "complicating things unecessarily with the details of the rules"??? I mean Thierry Henry "only" used one hand, so "technically" it was handball but come on, lets not bog things down with the rules!!


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 4, 2009)

Sorry Sheet, you obviously never explained yourself very well in the previous posts and didn't intend things to be read as you had written them. You seem to be happy with you knowledge of the rules and hopefully you will be able to explain them to your team a little better than on here. 

Is golf the only sport where you can be accused of "complicating things unecessarily with the details of the rules"??? I mean Thierry Henry "only" used one hand, so "technically" it was handball but come on, lets not bog things down with the rules!!  

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Oooh... below the belt!


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## Robobum (Dec 4, 2009)

Oooh... below the belt! 

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Haha, yeah probably a little!! 

The subject of playing to the rules is a fairly common theme on here and you'd be amazed at how many people are adamant that they are fair and play to the rules but then say that if they were pulled up by an opponent on certain rules they would storm off the course and not play with them.

IMHO, if you want to give your team some advice tell them to read the rule book. Or if, as you say, there are rules officials at these matches, don't proceed until they have given them the ruling. As is evident from this thread, what you know and how that is communicated to others can cause added confusion.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 4, 2009)

OK to sum this up as I see it. This event is a pretty full on inter-club thing with team outfits, match officials, caddies the lot and do any ruling can be given pretty quickly (and hopefully correctly) by the desiganted official. The OP wants to give ot a team sheet explaining some of the more common misconceptions.

Initially I thought it a bad idea but seeing how the thread has developed and how easily peoples understaning and intepretation of the rules vary it makes perfect sense. It threatened to get silly for a while but I think common sense has prevailed but it does highlight again the need to be so careful with the rules.


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## JustOne (Dec 4, 2009)

Haha, as I mentioned earlier, it'd be a race from the tee to see if I could strike my fourth before you could find the ball! That's why golfers originally wore sprinters spikes you know 

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Am I right in thinking if your initial shot went 250y and your provisional only went 249y then if you hit it again it still remains your provisional as it hasn't gone past your initial ball.... if it's 251y then you're right, when you play it will become your active ball.


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## justhitthething (Dec 6, 2009)

Haha, as I mentioned earlier, it'd be a race from the tee to see if I could strike my fourth before you could find the ball! That's why golfers originally wore sprinters spikes you know 

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Am I right in thinking if your initial shot went 250y and your provisional only went 249y then if you hit it again it still remains your provisional as it hasn't gone past your initial ball.... if it's 251y then you're right, when you play it will become your active ball.
		
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Yes and as your opponent if Id hit my drive 248yds, you wouldnt hit your provisional until Id searched for 5 minutes for your first ball, as it aint your turn.
A team rule sheet is an awful idea. Its clear from above that the rules are often missinterpreted. I would prefer to get my advice from the R & A than from a sheet that some well meaning yet misguided team member has written.


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 8, 2009)

@ Justhitthething

An awful idea? Misguided? 

Surely this thread shows how necessary it is?

And as for "misguided", every point I made in the OP has held up, despite minute dissection. There was confusion, admittedly, because I used the wrong wording for one, but that's a minor tweak (and a learning I'll gladly take on board). 

How many people here can say hand-on-heart that they knew you cannot finish a hole with two balls when unsure of a rule in match play, but you can in stroke play? Pants had this wrong. And assuming by his telling me to "read the rules" he's someone who feels he knows the rules well. 

We all get rules wrong at different times. And I think threads like this, or a couple of notes distributed among a team are a great idea to reduce confusion. As we all know, it's not so much the black & white of the rules that can turn a game, but if there's confusion, dispute and frustration on the course, even if you get the right outcome, you can be left put-off your game completely. Which is what I'd like to avoid.


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## viscount17 (Dec 8, 2009)

Matchplay Quiz Rule 2-2
Player A holes out for a 4. Player B has a putt for a half. Player A tells player B that the putt is just inside the left edge. Player B does not need to take his putt as the hole is halved.

Answer is True

  - Why?


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## Pants (Dec 8, 2009)

8-1 A  Loss of hole for giving advice


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## viscount17 (Dec 8, 2009)

thank you


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## Pants (Dec 8, 2009)

Sorry Viscount.  Something wrong here.

I was thinking of.. if A asks for advice from B, it is irrelevant whether B gives advice because A lost the hole as soon as he asked. 

In your scenario I can't see why the hole should be halved.  My interpretation would be that, as a player must not give advice to his opponent, A would be in breach of the rules for giving unsolicited advice - therefore loss of hole in matchplay or 2 shot penalty in stroke play.

Confused of Croydon


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2009)

I have to say (please look away if easily shocked) that I agree with Pants. Once the advice is offered, there is no requirement for B to accept or act on it other than to claim the hole


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## viscount17 (Dec 9, 2009)

over to the maestro I think.

Jezz are you out there?


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 9, 2009)

Hang on a minute - only one thing needs to be clarified! Viscount, was it a misprint in your OP where you said the hole should be "halved"? Did you mean "lost"? Because, as Pants' reply said, it is loss of hole.

Advice wasn't sought in the scenario.


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## viscount17 (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't think so, it should be a straight copy of the Quiz for that Rule (in the active version, which I now can't get as they just installed a new PC at work and, I think, added a load of blocks). 

If anyone can check that it is/isn't a typo?

must admit I didn't spot that as an issue just wasn't aware of the advice.


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## Pants (Dec 9, 2009)

I've checked the on-line R and A rules and the answer to their quiz question on this is definitely "hole halved". 

Unfortunately they don't give "chapter and verse" to their answers and I can't find anything in the rule book to support that answer.  I still think it is hole lost for the player who offered the advice.

Might have to take it up with head office if we can't get a definitive ruling.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 10, 2009)

Rule 2-2 Halved Hole

A hole is halved if each side holes out in the same number of strokes.

When a player has holed out and his opponent has been left with a stroke for the half, if the player subsequently incurs a penalty, the hole is halved.


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## Imurg (Dec 10, 2009)

Sure you're right but it makes a mockery of the "loss of hole" penalty in matchplay doesn't it.
Most, if not all, penalties in Matchplay incur loss of hole - so once I've holed out I can break rules and not lose the hole.

???????????


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## DCB (Dec 10, 2009)

Still think we need JessE to give an explanation. I can't work it out to get the result given.


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## Dodger (Dec 10, 2009)

Right,forgive me as I have read this twice quickly but what is the rule that has been infringed?


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## DCB (Dec 10, 2009)

Sammeebe has hit the nail on the head.

Rule 2-2 right enough.

Still confused though


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## Dodger (Dec 10, 2009)

anyone? what is the penalty for?


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## DCB (Dec 10, 2009)

Dodger,

"The following is an example of the application of the second paragraph of Rule 2-2:
In a match, A has holed out. As B, A's opponent, is preparing to putt for a half, A gives B advice as to his line of putt. A would normally lose the hole for a breach of Rule 8-1, but Rule 2-2 becomes operative in these circumstances and the hole is halved."

Clear as mud


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## Dodger (Dec 10, 2009)

Right so I must have 'lost' or 'halved' a hell of a lot of holes in my time then...??

Over the course of the last 20 years I have, on average of say 6 times a season played at Goswick in the scratch league and when playing my opponent who either hasn't played Goswick or at least not for a couple of years,given him lines off the tee etc.......


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## Pants (Dec 10, 2009)

Right so I must have 'lost' or 'halved' a hell of a lot of holes in my time then...??

Over the course of the last 20 years I have, on average of say 6 times a season played at Goswick in the scratch league and when playing my opponent who either hasn't played Goswick or at least not for a couple of years,given him lines off the tee etc....... 

Click to expand...

Hmmmm...

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.


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## Dodger (Dec 10, 2009)

Right so what is 'your line is' or 'the bunker you can see is reachable tonight with this wind'??

Pile of pish, I have always given and likewise taken said advice.


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## Pants (Dec 10, 2009)

Rule 2-2 Halved Hole

A hole is halved if each side holes out in the same number of strokes.

When a player has holed out and his opponent has been left with a stroke for the half, if the player subsequently incurs a penalty, the hole is halved.
		
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Well done Sammerbee.  Rule 2-2.  I hadn't twigged on that one. I suppose the crux of the matter is that as Player A had already finished the hole and was in a position where he couldn't lose it, he couldn't then be penalised by loss of hole for a breach of rules.

For those (remotely) interested and haven't looked it up...

The following is an example of the application of the second paragraph of Rule 2-2: 
In a match, A has holed out. As B, A's opponent, is preparing to putt for a half, A gives B advice as to his line of putt. A would normally lose the hole for a breach of Rule 8-1, but Rule 2-2 becomes operative in these circumstances and the hole is halved.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 10, 2009)

Right so I must have 'lost' or 'halved' a hell of a lot of holes in my time then...??

Over the course of the last 20 years I have, on average of say 6 times a season played at Goswick in the scratch league and when playing my opponent who either hasn't played Goswick or at least not for a couple of years,given him lines off the tee etc....... 

Click to expand...

Dodger: You're fine in pointing out a line from a tee. Rule 8.2(a) permits having a line pointed out by anyone as long as it's not on the green. It's when on a green that 8.2(b) restricts the line to being given by only your own "team" ie your caddy or partner etc.


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## viscount17 (Dec 11, 2009)

SammmeBee, well done thanks.

I think this is almost a record for the time it's taken to find a ruling.  Unless of course, you know different . . .


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## ShriekingSheet (Dec 11, 2009)

Wow, great trivia. I never would have got that. I was sure "halved" was a misprint!!


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## Dodger (Dec 11, 2009)

Right so I must have 'lost' or 'halved' a hell of a lot of holes in my time then...??

Over the course of the last 20 years I have, on average of say 6 times a season played at Goswick in the scratch league and when playing my opponent who either hasn't played Goswick or at least not for a couple of years,given him lines off the tee etc....... 

Click to expand...

Dodger: You're fine in pointing out a line from a tee. Rule 8.2(a) permits having a line pointed out by anyone as long as it's not on the green. It's when on a green that 8.2(b) restricts the line to being given by only your own "team" ie your caddy or partner etc.
		
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I havn't read the rule and cant be arsed to so I'll 'ask the experts'.....what about me saying 'there is a ditch at 250 that with todays breeze you can reach no bother' or 'the bunker is reachable with driver'?? 

Surely that is what Pants says I cannot do?What is the difference between that and a line of a putt? Nowt...

If so I am afraid I will continue to be curteous and point these out to my opponents til someone claims a hole off me!


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## backwoodsman (Dec 11, 2009)

I havn't read the rule and cant be arsed to so I'll 'ask the experts'.....what about me saying 'there is a ditch at 250 that with todays breeze you can reach no bother' or 'the bunker is reachable with driver'?? 

Surely that is what Pants says I cannot do?What is the difference between that and a line of a putt? Nowt...

If so I am afraid I will continue to be curteous and point these out to my opponents til someone claims a hole off me! 

Click to expand...

Saying "there's a ditch at 250 yards" is fine - matters of distance are public knowledge and therefore not advice. 

Saying "you can reach the bunker with a driver" is questionable - but presupposes you know things about their ability with various clubs. 

Saying  "I wouldn't use a driver - you'll reach the bunker" is definitely advice.


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## Dodger (Dec 11, 2009)

Well I have been busting rules for years as have many I play against!


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## Dodger (Dec 11, 2009)

And another thing I have never understood is this 'public knowledge' crap.....it is hardly public knowledge if you aint played there before or have a yardage chart/gps is it??!!


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## Pants (Dec 11, 2009)

And another thing I have never understood is this 'public knowledge' crap.....it is hardly public knowledge if you aint played there before or have a yardage chart/gps is it??!!  

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I gather that there has been a bit of interest in something Tiger Woods has done recently zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. 

Personally I haven't read anything about it. So are you saying it's hardly public knowledge then - just because I haven't read it ??   

The fact is that the information is there should you wish to avail yourself of it.


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2009)

And another thing I have never understood is this 'public knowledge' crap.....it is hardly public knowledge if you aint played there before or have a yardage chart/gps is it??!!  

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But its knowledge that is available to the public should they wish to take advantage of it. The line of a putt - well most of us get it wrong so that's not going to be public knowledge.


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## Dodger (Dec 11, 2009)

You can argue a putt line is public knowledge....It is there for all to see.


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2009)

If something is a matter of fact, it is not usually advice. (Wind strength and slope affecting distance excepted)

If something is a matter of opinion, it is usually advice.

There is also a grey area between. You can't hit that wedge 200 yards is an opinion, but may also be a fact.


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## Robobum (Dec 12, 2009)

You can't hit that wedge 200 yards is an opinion, but may also be a fact.
		
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Don't start that one Ethan, all the 24 handicappers will be on here saying they can hit a wedge 200yds.......it's their putting that lets them down and keeps their handicap high!!


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2009)

You can argue a putt line is public knowledge....It is there for all to see. 

Click to expand...

A putt line is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of judgement and opinion. There are a range of different combinations of line and speed that could make many putts. 

Whether there is a bunker to the side of that green or whether it is 220 yards to carry that stream are not matters of opinion or judgement.


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## JustOne (Dec 12, 2009)

A putt line is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of judgement and opinion. There are a range of different combinations of line and speed that could make many putts.
		
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Got to disagree, if you're looking over a 20foot putt with a severe left to right break then it's a FACT that it's going to break right... it is also a FACT that an uphill putt is not a down hill putt   Therefore would it not be right in saying there must be opinions that you could offer that would be factual eg: "this ones coming from the left" or "don't forget to hit it a bit firmer up the slope"


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2009)

A putt line is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of judgement and opinion. There are a range of different combinations of line and speed that could make many putts.
		
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Got to disagree, if you're looking over a 20foot putt with a severe left to right break then it's a FACT that it's going to break right... it is also a FACT that an uphill putt is not a down hill putt   Therefore would it not be right in saying there must be opinions that you could offer that would be factual eg: "this ones coming from the left" or "don't forget to hit it a bit firmer up the slope"  

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OK, disagree if you like, but you are wrong. 

I think the reasonable reader would read this "debate" to mean that someone who said that the line is about 2 balls outside the right, or whatever, is clearly giving advice. However, although telling a player playing from the valley of Sin to the 18th green at St Andrews that the putt is uphill probably does not tell them something they do not know, telling them to hit it a bit harder IS advice, because it tells someone how to do something, even if blindingly obvious.

R&A definition of advice: "Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke. Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.


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## JustOne (Dec 12, 2009)

OK, disagree if you like, but you are wrong. 

I think the reasonable reader would read this "debate" to mean that someone who said that the line is about 2 balls outside the right, or whatever, is clearly giving advice.
		
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Am I right in determining that you are suggesting that I am an unreasonable reader?   If so then that's just plain FUNNY  





			However, although telling a player playing from the valley of Sin to the 18th green at St Andrews that the putt is uphill probably does not tell them something they do not know
		
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So saying "don't forget it's uphill" is OK?

Personally I'd rather no one spoke at all on the greens but I'm trying to determine what is right and wrong so I can pick up and walk to the next hole when my mate opens his big gob as per usual. It would be unlikely that I would ever face an uphill putt without these words of wisdom spouting from aforementioned gob  

I'd be interested to know your take on the concept of offering wrong advice.... for example when you're lining up a left to right putt and someone chips in with "about a foot outside the right!" when it's clearly going to be a ball outside left.


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2009)

So saying "don't forget it's uphill" is OK?

Personally I'd rather no one spoke at all on the greens but I'm trying to determine what is right and wrong so I can pick up and walk to the next hole when my mate opens his big gob as per usual. It would be unlikely that I would ever face an uphill putt without these words of wisdom spouting from aforementioned gob  

I'd be interested to know your take on the concept of offering wrong advice.... for example when you're lining up a left to right putt and someone chips in with "about a foot outside the right!" when it's clearly going to be a ball outside left.
		
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Strictly speaking "don't forget its uphill" is advice because the implication is that a harder shot or putt is needed. The fact it is bloody obvious is irrelevant. Anyone may indicate the line of a shot (except on a green), but uphill or downhill is not that. 

If your mate tells you it is a foot from the left because he is half blind or has no idea, that is still advice, even if it is totally wrong. If he deliberately offers wrong advice (or knowingly offers incorrect information) in a non-joking manner with the intention to mislead, I think that could be a serious breach of etiquette punishable by disqualification (Rule 33-7).


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## JustOne (Dec 12, 2009)

If your mate tells you it is a foot from the left because he is half blind or has no idea, that is still advice, even if it is totally wrong. If he deliberately offers wrong advice (or knowingly offers incorrect information) in a non-joking manner with the intention to mislead, I think that could be a serious breach of etiquette punishable by disqualification (Rule 33-7).
		
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To be honest I haven't played against him in what I'd consider a 'proper' match. I don't know what his demeanour would be like in such circumstances but it's good to know what is right/wrong and what the consequences are. The only part I'm not sure about is what is the measure of 'joking'? Does a smile mean that he hasn't put you off? or made you think about something unnecessarily?


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2009)

If your mate tells you it is a foot from the left because he is half blind or has no idea, that is still advice, even if it is totally wrong. If he deliberately offers wrong advice (or knowingly offers incorrect information) in a non-joking manner with the intention to mislead, I think that could be a serious breach of etiquette punishable by disqualification (Rule 33-7).
		
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To be honest I haven't played against him in what I'd consider a 'proper' match. I don't know what his demeanour would be like in such circumstances but it's good to know what is right/wrong and what the consequences are. The only part I'm not sure about is what is the measure of 'joking'? Does a smile mean that he hasn't put you off? or made you think about something unnecessarily?  

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Hard to say. It is a Committee decision. Another example of the same penalty is where a player deliberately deflects a ball in play. Same sanction can apply. The Committee would have to consider the circumstances and the effect of the bad advice.


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2009)

Another rule I'm sure is broken regularily in golf is ...
Player A is playing against Player B in match play.
Par 3 
Player A hits his shot which lands on the green.
As he steps aside to allow player B to hit his shot he says
"wow, I haven't hit my 6 iron that well in ages"
Player B smiles and moves onto the next hole.


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## Robobum (Dec 14, 2009)

Another rule I'm sure is broken regularily in golf is ...
Player A is playing against Player B in match play.
Par 3 
Player A hits his shot which lands on the green.
As he steps aside to allow player B to hit his shot he says
"wow, I haven't hit my 6 iron that well in ages"
Player B smiles and moves onto the next hole.
		
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Depends whether the comment was aimed at his opponent or just said "casually" Bob. (Not sure how you determine that though??! )


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2009)

If he says it loud enough for player B to hear it, then it's giving advice, loss of hole.
If however he merely drops a 6 iron head cover on the grass, thats not giving advice.
It is a bit sneaky if he has just hit a 4 iron with a 6 iron headcover on it 

P.S.
Dont you guys with iron covers even think about switching your covers round in the upcoming winter knock out.


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## USER1999 (Dec 14, 2009)

No, because I would never remember, and end up hitting the wrong club. It is bad enough with the just usual 6 / 9 conundrum.


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## Robobum (Dec 14, 2009)

If he says it loud enough for player B to hear it, then it's giving advice, loss of hole.
		
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Hmmm, not sure that just because it's audible that it becomes a penalty Bob?? 

The decision says "If the statement was made casually, there was no breach.  *If the statement was made to another player*  who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach."


If anyone is using iron covers it should be loss of hole anyway


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2009)

The point is player A is possibly trying to influence player B by telling him directly or indirectly he hit a 6.
I wouldn't care if he was talking directly to me or not.
If you think about it, not many people will have a caddie so who else is player A talking to?
I take your point about the iron covers though


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## Robobum (Dec 14, 2009)

The point is player A is possibly trying to influence player B by telling him directly or indirectly he hit a 6.
I wouldn't care if he was talking directly to me or not.
If you think about it, not many people will have a caddie so who else is player A talking to?
I take your point about the iron covers though  

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Sorry Bob, not convinced. The decision makes provision for saying something as long as it was said "casually". But, as I said before, quite how you determine that is open to interpretation (perhaps you need to be leaning nonchelantly on the grip end of the club?? )

Changed my mind with the iron covers.... has to be DQ


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## USER1999 (Dec 14, 2009)

Lucky you aren't in charge then really.

I assume you have covers on your putter, fairways, hybrid, and driver? Why stop at just these?

I have never understood what it is about head covers that provokes such prejudice. They are only bits of neoprene after all. A bit like a hat for your clubs. It stops them clanking in the bag, and stops them getting bag chatter. What's the problem.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2009)

The point is player A is possibly trying to influence player B by telling him directly or indirectly he hit a 6.
I wouldn't care if he was talking directly to me or not.
If you think about it, not many people will have a caddie so who else is player A talking to?
I take your point about the iron covers though  

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Sorry Bob, not convinced. The decision makes provision for saying something as long as it was said "casually". But, as I said before,  *quite how you determine that is open to interpretation *  (perhaps you need to be leaning nonchelantly on the grip end of the club?? )
		
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As you said "open to interpretation".
That's why I would never say anything until afterwards.
It leaves yourself wide open to arguements.
It's my experience that if some people get half a chance to claim a hole without hitting a shot, they will seize on it.
Play safe is my option and don't say anything.


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## Robobum (Dec 15, 2009)

That's why I would never say anything until afterwards.
It leaves yourself wide open to arguements.
It's my experience that if some people get half a chance to claim a hole without hitting a shot, they will seize on it.
Play safe is my option and don't say anything.
		
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100% in agreement with that.


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