# Trolley Ban!



## thecraw (Jan 20, 2012)

How many of your courses operate a trolley ban during the winter? 

The reason I ask is that certain parts of my track are now a churned up mud bath due to ignorant lazy bar stewards who are too lazy to carry their bag in winter. They just continue to wheel their trolleys oblivious or unconcerned about the damage that they do. Its not as if its not noticeable either.

I spoke to the greenkeeper today who was at his wits end. He was saying that due to the weather he is about 3 months behind where he'd like to be in terms of winter plans etc. He was also saying that unless someone has a medical certificate then they shouldn't be allowed the use of a trolley at this time of year. What a wonderful idea I agreed. You should hear his opinion of juniors with electric trolleys, I think a tractor was mentioned in the same sentence and I did chuckle!

Anyway our weather has been that wet the greens staff can't take heavy machinery onto the course at present for fear of churning up the course. 


How many of your clubs operate a trolley ban when its soft?


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## jpenno (Jan 20, 2012)

Not sure on the current position but sherdley park used to ban them and you had to tee up on certain fairways during the winter!


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## bluewolf (Jan 20, 2012)

Ours is on a day to day basis, but as soon as the weather changes, I pull out the carry bag. Seems simple really.


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## fundy (Jan 20, 2012)

Ours are supposed to but rarely do, how they didnt enforce it earlier this week I dont understand


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## HickoryShaft (Jan 21, 2012)

Ours do have a winter ban but recently have been allowing hedgehog wheels on while normal trolleys are still banned.

Carry bag for me this time of year - need something to help get the Christmas excess down again!


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## CliveW (Jan 21, 2012)

No trolly ban at Blairgowrie as it drains pretty well. Some areas, especially between greens and tees, are roped off to prevent excessive wear and tear by trollies. As the average age of members is 74, there wouldn't be that many who could manage without a trolly!


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## JT77 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ours bans electric ones from around Oct to march, but normal ones are allowed unfortunately.


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## Captain_Black (Jan 21, 2012)

It's the electric ones that do all the damage.
They are very heavy & they spin the wheels in the wet / mud & churn it up something wicked.
I used a push trolley with hedgehog wheels & it does no damage at all, I am also very careful to avoid the very boggy parts of the course.


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## Captainron (Jan 21, 2012)

Ban 'em all! If you can't carry you can't play would be my motto. Harsh maybe but I'm sticking to it.


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## Iaing (Jan 21, 2012)

We've got a hedgehog wheel only policy from 1st november to 31st march with huge swathes of roped off areas around the greens and tees. I don't know if the hedgehogs make a lot of difference but the course certainly recovers quickly in the spring.
I carry during the winter because it's just a lot less hassle.
A trolley ban will never happen because as far as the clubs are concerned anyoe playing and spending money in the bar is better than no one. And a lot of folks won't play if they can't use their electric trolleys.


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## jammag (Jan 21, 2012)

My club operate a carry if you can when its really wet but will allow trolleys with hedgehog wheels. They have put in some pathways for areas that usually get a bit boggy. Peoples footprints are just as bad as wheels in my opinion why they dont encourage people to walk round certain areas around tees n known bad areas. My club does also put white lines on fairways to show you where you should be moving your trolley and roping off certain areas. Dont see how the doctors note thing would work, could you imagine, yeah I would like to book an appointment please, yes sir certainly what is the problem, well you see I need a doctors note to show I cannot carry my golf bag around 18 holes. Well ok then your booked in for 9:30, next call I would like to book an appointment as my heart is playing up, er sorry sir you cant see a doctor today we are fully booked today.

I wouldnt want to start up that debate again as it has been on here many times, but if people can afford to have the luxury of not carrying then why not, if you cant carry then does your problem have to be visable. I think not just one of the choices you get to make in golf, same as choosing to have the premium balls, the top of the range clubs, the best waterproofs, top bag, gps or laser. Does it make a difference to your golf, maybe maybe not but its a choice that you feel is right. If its within the rules its fine by me.


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## stevie_r (Jan 21, 2012)

Captainron said:



			Ban 'em all! If you can't carry you can't play would be my motto. utter crap I know but I'm sticking to it.
		
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fixed that one


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## Phil2511 (Jan 21, 2012)

There is no ban at our place for trolleys but alot of roped off areas that get moved to stop overuse. Quite a few tees on fairways or extra that are only used in winter. 
However many of the fitter guys carry because there is so much rope to travel around they say it's easier. I personally doubt I could manage 9 holes if I carried although I hope to get my weight down and fitness up to be able to carry next winter.


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## stevie_r (Jan 21, 2012)

I have a three wheel push trolley, the ground pressure it exerts in terms of pounds per square inch is significantly less than that of a human being, especially one laden with a golf bag.  Thing is if areas are roped off or marked then (most) people won't intrude on them with their trolley.  The same can not be said for a bag carrier who will generally take the shortest path; this is where the damage occurs.


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## Phil2511 (Jan 21, 2012)

stevie_r said:



			I have a three wheel push trolley, the ground pressure it exerts in terms of pounds per square inch is significantly less than that of a human being, especially one laden with a golf bag.  Thing is if areas are roped off or marked then (most) people won't intrude on them with their trolley.  The same can not be said for a bag carrier who will generally take the shortest path; this is where the damage occurs.
		
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That's exactly what they do at my place, carry and walk over the ropes through the cordoned off areas. I also use winter wheels on my trolley so as not to spin and churn the place up as mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## Bash (Jan 21, 2012)

If neccessary, they'll have a notice saying hedgehogs only, dependant on the conditions that day, but no trolley ban


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## Dave B (Jan 21, 2012)

No trolley ban but they are restricted to the sides of the course, There are  lots of roped off areas but  only one temporary green. The course is getting a bit tatty in areas and I feel that the ropes should be moved more often and that there should be a couple of more temporary greens as one or two are a little bit on the damp side.

In the past the course has had problems with drainage but the owner and green keepers have put a lot of work in and given the weather the greens are in very good condition


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## Imurg (Jan 21, 2012)

We have a Hedgehog only policy that includes electrics as well as push/pull trolleys.
We do have some parts that are getting churned up as it's the shortest route to the next tee. Occasionally these areas get roped off for a while and traffic goes round it. It all recovers by Spring.
I carry in the winter. Only really because I get racked off with the amount of mud that sticks to the hedgehogs - yesterday, Fraggers trolley wheels looked no different to normal wheels they were so caked.
It's also a pain getting them off the trolley and into the boot - small car so everything gets dismantled to fit in.


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## chrisd (Jan 21, 2012)

Captainron said:



			Ban 'em all! If you can't carry you can't play would be my motto. Harsh maybe but I'm sticking to it.
		
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I have a need to use an electric trolley all year round as do many golfers. If we wern't allowed to we wouldn't stay members and your fees would shoot through the roof and you'd be the first to moan. Every member that doesn't rejoin at our place cost around Â£1,000 and you would need to find that money from some where else and given that something like 30 members out of 600 have a doctors letter allowing them to use trolleys your loss could be Â£30,000 at a stroke. 

Harsh ? more like "no idea" I'm afraid

We are in a 2 month ban through January/February which is stupid. The course at the moment is as dry as it often is in May, when the ban come off it could be really wet, surely thats when trolleys should not be used.


Chris


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## AmandaJR (Jan 21, 2012)

We don't have a ban and don't have too many areas that get boggy as hard standing on many walkways between holes plus the lay-out means such walkways are often "dead" land unless you're very wayward!

I see so many who carry stepping over the roped areas protecting the aprons of greens so not sure who does the most damage. Never mind those that trudge across the green with a bag on their back.

I'd play a lot less golf if it meant carrying as I'm a lighweight, small person and whilst relatively strong I know my neck and back couldn't take the strain.

I have a speedcart which is fairly lightweight and easily manouverable so take care where I wheel and how I wheel it. It's about respecting the course however you choose to travel it.


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## AMcC (Jan 21, 2012)

We have no trolley ban in place as most of the course drains really well.  Like others we have sections marked off with rope and metal spikes to take you different routes between greens and tees and off the tees.  We also use quite a lot of winter tees alleviating the pressure on the summer routes.

We had a member break his ankle after he slipped leaving the thirteenth green, luckily he was playing with a doctor so he was splinted quickly.  That spot looks fairly inoccuous but it shows you how easy these things can happen !!


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## sona (Jan 21, 2012)

We have had a ban on trolleys for about two months at the Dragons Tooth Golf Course, we also have to use tees on the fairways to reduce damage but the greens are fantastic (no temporaries).


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## moogie (Jan 21, 2012)

Phil2511 said:



			There is no ban at our place for trolleys but alot of roped off areas that get moved to stop overuse.
		
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There is NO ban at my course,  either,  and we operate with several holes,  roped off areas,  and roped designated paths around,  or through trees......to avoid the wettest parts


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## moogie (Jan 21, 2012)

stevie_r said:



			I have a three wheel push trolley, the ground pressure it exerts in terms of pounds per square inch is significantly less than that of a human being, especially one laden with a golf bag. Thing is if areas are roped off or marked then (most) people won't intrude on them with their trolley. The same can not be said for a bag carrier who will generally take the shortest path; this is where the damage occurs.
		
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Totally agree with you here stevie
Some bag carriers leave bag at side of green whilst putting
Hole Out
Hoist bag onto back
Then walk straight across the green,  to the next tee
The weight of a guy carrying a bag over the green is substantial and when really wet leaves some hefty footprints in the green
Bag carriers should atleast walk around the green,  surely,  common sense


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## Captainron (Jan 21, 2012)

I should have added - when the course is wet through. When the course is firm enough them trolleys are fine.


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

I'd be happy to have a pencil bag with 4 clubs in it. The Winter really is just for working on your game and I fail to ever take it too seriously. It's amazing how light a bag with only 4 clubs is!


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## sona (Jan 21, 2012)

moogie said:



			Totally agree with you here stevie
Some bag carriers leave bag at side of green whilst putting
Hole Out
Hoist bag onto back
Then walk straight across the green,  to the next tee
The weight of a guy carrying a bag over the green is substantial and when really wet leaves some hefty footprints in the green
Bag carriers should atleast walk around the green,  surely,  common sense
		
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I also think it is a question of respect for the course and not just wether you carry or use a trolley. You should know what is acceptable for the conditions


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 21, 2012)

thecraw said:



			How many of your courses operate a trolley ban during the winter?
		
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Only belong to the one course. We don't ban trolleys, we do have a section of the course that gets a bit boggy if there's a lot of rain, we ban buggies on that section. Elsewhere on the course, the green staff rope off areas where they don't want trolleys to go, and certain parts of the course have winter pathways introduced. There are two local public courses, they guarantee no winter greens and do not ban trolleys, but if you use one it must have hedgehogs.



thecraw said:



			The reason I ask is that certain parts of my track are now a churned up mud bath due to ignorant lazy bar stewards who are too lazy to carry their bag in winter. They just continue to wheel their trolleys oblivious or unconcerned about the damage that they do. Its not as if its not noticeable either.
		
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It's not the fault of the people not carrying at all. If there is no trolley ban or no provisions on the parts of the course to deal with it, then it can only be down to the course for not putting in place a way to deal with it..... 



thecraw said:



			I spoke to the greenkeeper today who was at his wits end. He was saying that due to the weather he is about 3 months behind where he'd like to be in terms of winter plans etc. He was also saying that unless someone has a medical certificate then they shouldn't be allowed the use of a trolley at this time of year. What a wonderful idea I agreed. You should hear his opinion of juniors with electric trolleys, I think a tractor was mentioned in the same sentence and I did chuckle!
		
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No reason for that bit Craw, as has been discussed almost as many times being able to drive 300+ yards 99.9% of the time, to use a trolley or not, is entirely a personal decision, there is no global right or wrong, only what is right/ comfortable for you.  As time goes by, more research is done, more experience is noted. My son has been called into the county under 12 squad for this season, he has been told not to carry, they don't like juniors carrying because it can affect growing bones in a negative way. Note I said "can effect" not will, it probably doesn't affect all of them, but the county setup are more likely to have better research and information than I have, so I'm happy to follow their directive. Just because we carried when we were kids, does not mean it was right, or the best thing to do, more likely that we couldn't afford the trolleys back then, I know I couldn't - wonder if that's why I have back problems now? Now that  I can afford an electric trolley, I use one, mostly in the summer, although I have been carrying since November, as has my son....



thecraw said:



			Anyway our weather has been that wet the greens staff can't take heavy machinery onto the course at present for fear of churning up the course.
		
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Well that's a different kettle of fish altogether, and not unexpected given that a tractor weighs a fair bit more than a golf trolley.....


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## MegaSteve (Jan 21, 2012)

AmandaJR said:



			It's about respecting the course however you choose to travel it.
		
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100% in agreement with Amanda on this...

For the record I always used to carry all year round whatever the weather conditions... Due to arthritus I can no longer do this and have to rely on my clicgear to transport my clubs... Its bad enough being restricted to flat courses as I struggle with walking up or down hills these days... If I had to pack up playing in the winter, as well, due to trolley bans then I might as well pack up altogether...


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## richart (Jan 21, 2012)

No bans at my course. Since we had new drainage put in about ten years ago, and the fact we are sand based, damage to the course is not really a problem. We do have trolley routes taking people away from any wet areas.

I do try and carry as much as possible, but do seem to be in the minority.


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## thecraw (Jan 21, 2012)

sona said:



			We have had a ban on trolleys for about two months at the Dragons Tooth Golf Course, we also have to use tees on the fairways to reduce damage but the greens are fantastic (no temporaries).
		
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What a beautiful little track that is. That par 5, runs down the river, I remember hitting a 4 wood over the corner of the trees not having a clue where I was going to 3 feet for a tap in eagle. Lovely location and scenery.

How's the course doing, when I played it it was up for sale??


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## Achilles (Jan 21, 2012)

No ban at our place but there are lots of roped off areas. We also have painted dotted white lines around most greens from around 20 yards out to prevent trolleys getting too close. Seems to work though there are of course some muddier areas but I don't think a trolley ban would really make that much difference to those areas. Drainage is pretty good and we've not had any significant deluges so no real need for a ban. Yet.


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## Golfmmad (Jan 21, 2012)

Hedgehogs only at my course throughout the winter months. Electric trolleys banned at this time due to the recent wet weather.

I'm carrying at the moment and enjoying it, rather than pulling a trolley through the mud!

I have no problem with it at all - anything that helps the course and greenkeepers has got to be a good thing for the long term benefits.


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## RichardC (Jan 21, 2012)

Trolley use in the winter months is monitored day by day. The info for the day is on the website and on the phone when you call the club.


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## connor (Jan 21, 2012)

no trolley ban here course is in good nick all year round.  Couple roped off areas and no trolley zones but thats not a problem i jus down go the that point.  Im 28 and use my electric trolley.  I am no different to anyone wacking there clubs on the ground leaving divots and not repaing them!  My biggest gripe this time of year is bloody pitch marks im forever reparing other peoples!!!!  no excuse for that at all


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## golfcitydweller (Jan 21, 2012)

no trolley ban here - we don`t du `soft` ....


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## AuburnWarrior (Jan 21, 2012)

No trolley ban at our place.

We've had such good weather that, coupled with the removal of the white tees, the course is playing very short.  So short, in fact, that 40+ points is required to win our swindle when high 30s is the norm.


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## Dreamer2 (Jan 21, 2012)

the club I'm at only bans trolleys if there's been heavy rain then its the greens man that as to tell the golfers the money men (owners) don't care they wouldn't want to lose a tenner for the round,,


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## sona (Jan 21, 2012)

thecraw said:



			What a beautiful little track that is. That par 5, runs down the river, I remember hitting a 4 wood over the corner of the trees not having a clue where I was going to 3 feet for a tap in eagle. Lovely location and scenery.

How's the course doing, when I played it it was up for sale??
		
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The course is in great condition considering the rain and new owner is very comitted to improving it, this year we will have 2 tee boxes for each green which will be fun.


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## thecraw (Jan 21, 2012)

Good stuff, I just sent you a PM.


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## leaney (Jan 21, 2012)

I think that if you are fit and healthy, then you should carry your clubs.

I have friends that are fit and healthy, yet most of them have trolley's.

I think it's embarrassing.


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## bigfoot1985 (Jan 21, 2012)

No trolley ban at my place, never known there to have been one!!

Then again there is alot of oap`s there so thats prob why


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## Mick47 (Jan 22, 2012)

JT77 said:



			Ours bans electric ones from around Oct to march, but normal ones are allowed unfortunately.
		
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Same at ours.


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## MadAdey (Jan 22, 2012)

Not sure where all this about trolleys come from. My course ropes areas off that are prone to getting boggy to prevent people walking on them, even though those amazing people that carry bags still ignore them and walk across causing damage to the course. I play in Lincolnshire and my course is at sea level, the dykes that surround the course are tidal so we do have a problem with certain areas of the course getting very wet during winter.

So how many people take short cuts with their carry bags across greens. The pressure being applied by having that bag on your back is not good for the green. Having a Motocaddy I stick to roped areas and the paths that are there to stop trolley damage and they keep players well away from certain areas. 

So the average shoe is 20 SqIn and an average man is say 180 pounds. So one trip across the green is applying 180/20=9 lb pre SqIn (weight/area=pressure applied). So on average a carry bag with a full set of clubs in is 30lb maybe 35 in winter carrying waterproofs etc. So when that person is walking back across the green for a second time with a bag on his back he is now making 235/20=11.75 lb per SqIn. So to be honest people having a power trolley will cause some damage but that person taking short cuts over greens and around the apron of the green is causing a lot of damage also.


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## Dreamer2 (Jan 22, 2012)

leaney said:



			I think that if you are fit and healthy, then you should carry your clubs.

I have friends that are fit and healthy, yet most of them have trolley's.

I think it's embarrassing.
		
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you get embarrassed very easily,,,to me it depend on your day job weather you want to carry about 20kg around 18 holes


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## USER1999 (Jan 22, 2012)

I love it when some muppet deliberately spins the trolley wheels, in the middle of the fairway, to clear some of the mud off them. It happens quite often. How stupid are some people.


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## DCB (Jan 22, 2012)

MadAdey said:



			So to be honest people having a power trolley will cause some damage but that person taking short cuts over greens and around the apron of the green is causing a lot of damage also.
		
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So, Ban Trolley users and Ban Bag Carriers 

End result, no damage to greens or walkways


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2012)

No trolly ban in place although we do have them if it gets too wet. Hedgehogs required though for those that do trolly although it never ceases to amaze me how many flout this rule, especially electric trolly users. I got a set of hedgehogs for my GK this season and last year bought a pair of the ones you can get in most golf stores and attached them myself with cable ties. 

I'm all for letting people continue to use their trolly where possible as it would preclude a large number of members from playing regularly through age etc. and in these austere times the club needs members using the course and the club as often as possible. We have a number of holes with large roped off areas which are directing players through the rough. On some holes it makes the going hard even with an electric model and so I'm sure a lot are ignoring this. It is helping to a degree and the bare area we'd normally use is looking much better and with a growth of grass on


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## jammag (Jan 22, 2012)

Embarrassed to put my clubs on a electric trolley not at all. How you can say that is unbelievable, do people question your choice of ball or clubs? No thought not so why should you make judgement on trolley users? Its a choice, would you ever see Luke Donald carry his bag? Nope thought not. So whats good for the world no1 is good enough for me and I will NOT be carrying my clubs as long as I have a trolley.


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## Val (Jan 22, 2012)

DCB said:



			So, Ban Trolley users and Ban Bag Carriers 

End result, no damage to greens or walkways  

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Yip, I think that's code for "shut the course its winter"


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## MadAdey (Jan 22, 2012)

DCB said:



			So, Ban Trolley users and Ban Bag Carriers 

End result, no damage to greens or walkways  

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At least one person gets my point then. Everyone makes damage to the course this time of year. Be careful with your trolley and you will cause less damage than people cutting across greens and other short cuts you can take with a bag on your back.


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## welshjim22 (Oct 4, 2012)

I normally carry but have to admit i am considering going down the trolley route in winter, with hedgeghogs of course, simply due to the fact that when carrying in light rain umbrellas are a pig to deal with.  Also somewhere to store waterproofs.  Yes i could choose not to play when wet but yesterday i was soaked through after three holes of fine persistant rain and then it stopped raining.  It would have been a shame not to have gone out because of a little rain.


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## drutz (Oct 4, 2012)

no ours ban electric trolleys and carts but push trolleys are still allowed.


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## CMAC (Oct 4, 2012)

an old thread raised again..........it must be nearly winter.

12 -16 stone guy carrying clubs or around 25kg weight spread over 3 wide wheels, which would cause the most damage over the same area


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## Baldyeagle (Oct 4, 2012)

Ours just announced 'Winter wheels mandatory on all trolleys from Nov 1 - March next year'. Apparently trialled last year and they reckon significantly less damage to course. 
Hope they're right cos it's a lot less hassle than a total trolley ban.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2012)

I think I put this on the Jan thread but I shall say it again as most folk do not understand why trollies get banned.

Golfers with trollies will ALWAYS take the shortest route around a green so it is the tracking and footfall but not the trollies themselves that cause the damage. Virtually all golfers with trollies will follow the same narrow path. Carry bag golfers enter and exit the green by a 360 degree circle so the wear on the greens approach is much less. Observe next time you play and check it out for yourselves


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 4, 2012)

This is where the pencil bags comes into it's own. If you're just playing a casual round with friends, put your waterproof bottoms on (if you need) then there's still plenty of room for a jacket in the pocket. The bag weighs hardly anything and its pretty much waterproof. 

To be honest, I use it for most of the year (apart from in major comps) and think it's a lot easier than pushing round my tour bag, even in decent weather.


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## JT77 (Oct 4, 2012)

Just got a email to say the electric trolly ban has started at our course. Doesn't affect me, but those it foes can still use a push trolly. 
Makes a huge difference at our place where they have been banning them for the last few years.


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## Birchy (Oct 4, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think I put this on the Jan thread but I shall say it again as most folk do not understand why trollies get banned.

Golfers with trollies will ALWAYS take the shortest route around a green so it is the tracking and footfall but not the trollies themselves that cause the damage. Virtually all golfers with trollies will follow the same narrow path. Carry bag golfers enter and exit the green by a 360 degree circle so the wear on the greens approach is much less. Observe next time you play and check it out for yourselves
		
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This is the bang on way i see it. Everybody with a trolley goes virtually the same route, everybody who carries walks a different path virtually every time. Hundreds of trolleys going over the exact same bit of land = more damage than hundreds of people walking different routes across the course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think I put this on the Jan thread but I shall say it again as most folk do not understand why trollies get banned.

Golfers with trollies will ALWAYS take the shortest route around a green so it is the tracking and footfall but not the trollies themselves that cause the damage. Virtually all golfers with trollies will follow the same narrow path. Carry bag golfers enter and exit the green by a 360 degree circle so the wear on the greens approach is much less. Observe next time you play and check it out for yourselves
		
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I concur - at an AGM at my previous club one year I tried to get a trolley ban over winter months  or all the usual reasons - but 3-line whip was put out out on seniors and I was defeated 250-5 or something like that.  Course was on clay and became a mess.  Ohh well.  Not too bothered at current as drains well - besides we have other things to be upset about.


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## bluewolf (Oct 4, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			an old thread raised again..........it must be nearly winter.

12 -16 stone guy carrying clubs or around 25kg weight spread over 3 wide wheels, which would cause the most damage over the same area
		
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Maybe we should ban fat people in winter? 12 stone guy carrying 3 stones of equipment versus 20 stone guy not carrying, but using a trolley on the path.


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## duncan mackie (Oct 4, 2012)

we currently have buggies fully in use...and no dedicated buggy paths either; so the crux of the thread's not really our issue.

I would just point out that there are 2 sides to the single trolley route v multiple walking ones - as already pointed out there will be times when you wouldn't want everyone to even walk some routes (but can't stop them) whilst on the other hand you can route trollies quite easily around greens etc

Personally I use a Clic with a lightweight bag, reduced set and pretty empty pockets - and I follow my own path!


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## Oddsocks (Oct 4, 2012)

No trolley bans at our but they implement buggy bans.

Personally, lightweight carry bag, sticks, couple of balls and I'm set, if I need waterproofs their on before the off with a jacket in the bag along with mcwets....... I travel light!


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## GB72 (Oct 4, 2012)

We do not have trolley bans but do have the compulsory use of hedgehogs from the end of October (which reminds me I need to buy some for the Go-Kart).

We are lucky in that we do not have many buggies on the course so at least the damage that they cause is avoided.


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## Essex_Stu (Oct 4, 2012)

Electric trolley ban in place when the course is very wet. Other than that the green areas and parts of fairways are roped off to trolleys. Doesnt bother me either way as I carry. Nearly all the other guys in my swindle also carry in winter but go back to trolleys in summer. I prefer carrying as when the aprons are roped off I cant be bothered to park my trolley 1 side and walk round to the other!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 4, 2012)

Got my hedgehogs ready for the GK and always leave a carry bag in the boot in case weget a trolly ban (rare). Heavy rain due tomorrow and all night into Saturday morning so it will be good to see how the work on ditch clearng has paid off


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## Shiny (Oct 4, 2012)

No trolley ban but a definate buggy ban.  Our course is as wet as everywhere else at the moment but not churing up with mud as we seem to apart from one hole not be too boggy.  I will carry on using my trolley with winter wheels until told otherwise.


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## Imurg (Oct 4, 2012)

Ironically, during the worst of the Spring and Summer rains with standing water over many parts of the course, there was no ban.
But during the Winter, when the ground was pretty dry - we had a ban....


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2012)

thecraw said:



			How many of your courses operate a trolley ban during the winter? 

The reason I ask is that certain parts of my track are now a churned up mud bath due to ignorant lazy bar stewards who are too lazy to carry their bag in winter. They just continue to wheel their trolleys oblivious or unconcerned about the damage that they do. Its not as if its not noticeable either.

I spoke to the greenkeeper today who was at his wits end. He was saying that due to the weather he is about 3 months behind where he'd like to be in terms of winter plans etc. He was also saying that unless someone has a medical certificate then they shouldn't be allowed the use of a trolley at this time of year. What a wonderful idea I agreed. You should hear his opinion of juniors with electric trolleys, I think a tractor was mentioned in the same sentence and I did chuckle!

Anyway our weather has been that wet the greens staff can't take heavy machinery onto the course at present for fear of churning up the course. 


How many of your clubs operate a trolley ban when its soft?
		
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This is one of the most ignorant and prejudiced posts I have read.   You see this from a single perspective and do not consider people that cannot carry a bag due to health/age related issues and there are many people like this over 50 YOA. 

So! I guess your course becomes unusable in the Summer due to the destruction wrought to the course through the winter by the use of trollies by these lazy people.   Just think about it and try to view a situation through the eyes of others, it may help you to become a more tolerant and understanding person.


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## Psychew (Jan 21, 2016)

I see this is an old post but it is very relevant to me at the moment My partner is disabled and his club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision under the equality act Trolley bans are discrimatory Disabled people enjoy a game of golf as much as non disabled The EGU states that dedicated path ways adjacent to the fairway should be provided under the reasonable adjustment under the Act SIRI ? Have done research that states electric trolleys do no more damage as foot bag carriers Buggies do a very slight more damage I am fighting his club and am considering taking to court if they do not act fairly and equally to all If course closed to disabled it should be closed to all After I have  sorted out local course I am going to fight nationally to stop all golf clubs/courses discriminating against the disabled It is not just morally wrong but is illegal I wonder how many of you would support me in the fight I know a few of you won't as I've read the comments if you can't carry a bag you shouldn't be allowed to play golf If I knew who u were I'd be citing you in court as breaching the law with your discrimatory attitude thoughts and words God forbid you or someone close to youbnever gets a  disability and gets this treatment


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2016)

So you would rather see trolleys rip up golf courses in extreme weather conditions than see them sensibly ensure all trolleys and buggies are banned. 

We play with someone with a disability and he can't play without a trolley - he is fully supportive of the club when they ban trolleys 

Can you please show us the research that says electric trolleys do no more
Damage than carrying - it's wrong. 

Also please show me the legislation in regards paths under the EGU


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## Val (Jan 21, 2016)

thecraw said:



			How many of your courses operate a trolley ban during the winter? 

The reason I ask is that certain parts of my track are now a churned up mud bath due to ignorant lazy bar stewards who are too lazy to carry their bag in winter. They just continue to wheel their trolleys oblivious or unconcerned about the damage that they do. Its not as if its not noticeable either.

I spoke to the greenkeeper today who was at his wits end. He was saying that due to the weather he is about 3 months behind where he'd like to be in terms of winter plans etc. He was also saying that unless someone has a medical certificate then they shouldn't be allowed the use of a trolley at this time of year. What a wonderful idea I agreed. You should hear his opinion of juniors with electric trolleys, I think a tractor was mentioned in the same sentence and I did chuckle!

Anyway our weather has been that wet the greens staff can't take heavy machinery onto the course at present for fear of churning up the course. 


How many of your clubs operate a trolley ban when its soft?
		
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:rofl:

Thought I was seeing things when I saw this thread starter


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## Jacko_G (Jan 21, 2016)

You can't cite someone for having an opinion!

I have lot's of opinions but they're only my opinion! Doesn't make em right or wrong!


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## Psychew (Jan 21, 2016)

I see this is an old post but it is very relevant to me at the moment My partner is disabled and his club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision under the equality act Trolley bans are discrimatory Disabled people enjoy a game of golf as much as non disabled The EGU states that dedicated path ways adjacent to the fairway should be provided under the reasonable adjustment under the Act SIRI ? Have done research that states electric trolleys do no more damage as foot bag carriers Buggies do a very slight more damage I am fighting his club and am considering taking to court if they do not act fairly and equally to all If course closed to disabled it should be closed to all After I have sorted out local course I am going to fight nationally to stop all golf clubs/courses discriminating against the disabled It is not just morally wrong but is illegal I wonder how many of you would support me in the fight I know a few of you won't as I've read the comments if you can't carry a bag you shouldn't be allowed to play golf If I knew who u were I'd be citing you in court as breaching the law with your discrimatory attitude thoughts and words God forbid you or someone close to you never gets a disability and gets this treatment


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## chippa1909 (Jan 21, 2016)

Psychew said:



			I see this is an old post but it is very relevant to me at the moment My partner is disabled and his club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision under the equality act Trolley bans are discrimatory Disabled people enjoy a game of golf as much as non disabled The EGU states that dedicated path ways adjacent to the fairway should be provided under the reasonable adjustment under the Act SIRI ? Have done research that states electric trolleys do no more damage as foot bag carriers Buggies do a very slight more damage I am fighting his club and am considering taking to court if they do not act fairly and equally to all If course closed to disabled it should be closed to all After I have  sorted out local course I am going to fight nationally to stop all golf clubs/courses discriminating against the disabled It is not just morally wrong but is illegal I wonder how many of you would support me in the fight I know a few of you won't as I've read the comments if you can't carry a bag you shouldn't be allowed to play golf If I knew who u were I'd be citing you in court as breaching the law with your discrimatory attitude thoughts and words God forbid you or someone close to youbnever gets a  disability and gets this treatment
		
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Is this a wind up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2016)

Psychew said:



			I see this is an old post but it is very relevant to me at the moment My partner is disabled and his club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision under the equality act Trolley bans are discrimatory Disabled people enjoy a game of golf as much as non disabled The EGU states that dedicated path ways adjacent to the fairway should be provided under the reasonable adjustment under the Act SIRI ? Have done research that states electric trolleys do no more damage as foot bag carriers Buggies do a very slight more damage I am fighting his club and am considering taking to court if they do not act fairly and equally to all If course closed to disabled it should be closed to all After I have sorted out local course I am going to fight nationally to stop all golf clubs/courses discriminating against the disabled It is not just morally wrong but is illegal I wonder how many of you would support me in the fight I know a few of you won't as I've read the comments if you can't carry a bag you shouldn't be allowed to play golf If I knew who u were I'd be citing you in court as breaching the law with your discrimatory attitude thoughts and words God forbid you or someone close to you never gets a disability and gets this treatment
		
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Repeating the tripe doesn't make it any more valid


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## Psychew (Jan 21, 2016)

New to forum so don't know how to send attachments send email address and I'll willingly send the research Don't want courses ripped up but good course management with roped areas/paths would ensure even distribution Its not me saying its not me but the law  Courses should lay either tempory paths they could use bark etc or cut new paths along side of the fairway as some already have in the rough


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

No its no wind up do some research and look at the equality act Buggy ban got overturned by disabled three some when they raised as an equality issue If it goes to court Judge can instruct the reasonable adjustments to be made plus could cost club more as person discriminated against gets compensation


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

If u support our service personel who have been injured in Afghanistan etc Whose limbs are blown off then you too would not think this is tripe They enjoy playing golf too so why should they only be allowed to play in good weather They pay same green fees as non disabled members If course open to non disabled it should be open to disabled too I think some people on here are very selfish I only hope you never suffer from MS or any other disabling illness As for disabled person accepting the ban that's probably cos he's a lone person amid small narrow minded bigot


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## Oddsocks (Jan 22, 2016)

The thing you have to consider is costs! Our course is long and 27 holes.  To make them buggy/trolley friendly could well cost in the excess of 50k as a guess if not a lot more.

Ultimately this will filter down to a huge hike in subs to find what is effectively a minority with the club.

You also have to factor in the 90* rule.  If paths are so far out the way the player could be posed with longer walks from said paths to where their ball is located.! For examples path ways to the right of the right hand rough and miss left with a hook.  On some holes at ours this could be a 100-150yrd walk.

We have one founder member who has MS, and simply cannot play without a buggy.  He is totally supportive of the buggy ban and enjoys the break during the wet months.......


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 22, 2016)

Ours is a day-by-day decision but in practice once leckky trolleys are banned they will normally be banned until the Spring and the ground is firming up.

Most of us get a carry bag out round end of October.

Exceptions are those 70 + with a medical certificate but only then can they use a manual job.


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## MashieNiblick (Jan 22, 2016)

Interesting post which raises a good point.

Surely the sensible approach is for a club to allow a trolley where someone isn't able to carry. Won't be many per club, and impact on course would be minimal.

I think the research referred to is the study by the Sports Turf Research Institute which you can download here

http://www.englandgolf.org/page.aspx?sitesectionid=320

It's pretty wordy but comparing foot, trolley and buggy wear in dry and wet conditions, it basically found that in wet conditions foot and trollies were fairly similar but buggies caused significantly more wear. Chart on page 8 gives best quick indication of findings. It does also refer to how in practice wear is affected by the different ways in which walking, trolleys and buggies are used on the course (page 15).


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## patricks148 (Jan 22, 2016)

Val said:



			:rofl:

Thought I was seeing things when I saw this thread starter
		
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Me too.

Though we have never had a trolley ban


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## WWG (Jan 22, 2016)

thecraw said:



			How many of your courses operate a trolley ban during the winter? 

The reason I ask is that certain parts of my track are now a churned up mud bath due to ignorant lazy bar stewards who are too lazy to carry their bag in winter. They just continue to wheel their trolleys oblivious or unconcerned about the damage that they do. Its not as if its not noticeable either.

I spoke to the greenkeeper today who was at his wits end. He was saying that due to the weather he is about 3 months behind where he'd like to be in terms of winter plans etc. He was also saying that unless someone has a medical certificate then they shouldn't be allowed the use of a trolley at this time of year. What a wonderful idea I agreed. You should hear his opinion of juniors with electric trolleys, I think a tractor was mentioned in the same sentence and I did chuckle!

Anyway our weather has been that wet the greens staff can't take heavy machinery onto the course at present for fear of churning up the course. 


How many of your clubs operate a trolley ban when its soft?
		
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No buggies, but trolleys are fine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2016)

we've been asked to carry where we can.


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## Doh (Jan 22, 2016)

We have a ban on Electric trolleys but you can use a push/pull one although you are encouraged to carry if you can.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 22, 2016)

It always surprised me how protective club members were about the quality and maintenance of their club ...............................................................up until you introduce a trolley ban to protect it.
They then turn into a selfish angry mob.


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## Snelly (Jan 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It always surprised me how protective club members were about the quality and maintenance of their club ...............................................................up until you introduce a trolley ban to protect it.
They then turn into a selfish angry mob.
		
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I have found the elusive needle in a haystack - a post from Doon that I agree with.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It always surprised me how protective club members were about the quality and maintenance of their club ...............................................................up until you introduce a trolley ban to protect it.
They then turn into a selfish angry mob.
		
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Blimey - I agree


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## dewsweeper (Jan 22, 2016)

Captainron said:



			Ban 'em all! If you can't carry you can't play would be my motto. Harsh maybe but I'm sticking to it.
		
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Hope you still think that when you are 80!!!!


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## DCB (Jan 22, 2016)

Interesting read, but as someone who would had a serious accident and now has a heightened awareness of what disabled people need need I don't agree with the post that restarted this old thread. I'm afraid that if the course conditions are such that a trolley or buggy ban was in force, then conditions are such that I wouldn't want to put myself at more risk out on the course than was necessary. We are each responsible for our own personal safety. Same criteria would be used if I was to measure up the risk of playing on a wet summers day.


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			You can't cite someone for having an opinion!

I have lot's of opinions but they're only my opinion! Doesn't make em right or wrong!
		
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Well no you can't be done for having an opinion but you can be if you say them or write them and they are a discrimatory remark under the equality Act Always best to keep negative remarks to ones self if your a bigot


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

With 99 degree rule its not full bag to carry they'd carry just one club Oh the old story of money I've never heard of a poor golf club


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## woody69 (Jan 22, 2016)

I'm a little confused by this bump... however are you (Psychew) suggesting that if a trolley and/or buggy ban is in place at a golf club, by not either allowing disabled players an exemption on the ban for medical reasons, or providing suitable infrastructure that would allow buggys / trolley all year round, they are in breach of the Equality Act?


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2016)

I have also read somewhere that carrying actually causes more damage than trollies but I can't remember where. I believe it was something to do with people carrying having more weight on one side than the other and walking more on their heels. Don't know if its fact or not, but have read it. 

And I've also heard of some enlightened clubs realising that the Disabilities Discrimination Act could be used against them in these circumstances. Some clubs have a partial trolley ban when conditions dictate a ban is appropriate, i.e. anyone one with a medical cert to back up their requirement can still use a trolley. The cert has to be logged with the secretary, and the starter monitors all those that go out with a trolley. The list the starter correlates is given to the sec, and anyone who used a trolley without a cert already being in received a ban.

Seems like a decent compromise.


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

Thankyou Mashiniblick I couldn't remember the name of the research last night Its funny how people are responding and very nice to see not all golfers are so selfish as to not support their fellow  disabled players when the winter sets in Golf is the only out let my partner has Before he was introduced to the game he was so depressed to the point of suicidal When trolley ban brought in a few years ago I noticed his mood drop Its a therapy to him He gets to meet people Gets fresh air & excercise and doesn't feel his illness makes him useless


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			With 99 degree rule its not full bag to carry they'd carry just one club Oh the old story of money I've never heard of a poor golf club
		
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I have a degree of sympathy with your general point but think any solution must be around the idea of an exemption to the trolley ban for people who genuinely need a trolley for medical or capability reasons rather than wide-ranging changes to the course.

Your comment about poor golf clubs betrays a level of ignorance, I'm afraid. Yes some clubs have plenty of cash but others are struggling to stay open year on year and many have closed already.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			With 99 degree rule its not full bag to carry they'd carry just one club Oh the old story of money I've never heard of a poor golf club
		
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Have you found the copy of this EGU legislation in regards must having buggy paths ? 

And also can you point out exactly in the Equality Act in regards Trolley bans ?

As for your crass comment in regards Military - I have played with people who have lost limbs and some of them have carried their clubs - one of the members at a local club who currently has a trolley ban still continues to play with a prosthetic arm.


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It always surprised me how protective club members were about the quality and maintenance of their club ...............................................................up until you introduce a trolley ban to protect it.
They then turn into a selfish angry mob.
		
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Not asking to churn up course asking for a designated path !!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			Not asking to churn up course asking for a designated path !!!
		
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Will you pay for it ?


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## DCB (Jan 22, 2016)

It all boils down to what is a "Reasonable Adjustment" under the DDA. I don't think temporary paths for the wet winter months would fall into this category. I may be wrong, but it'd take a legal case to decide what a club needed to do.


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

woody69 said:



			I'm a little confused by this bump... however are you (Psychew) suggesting that if a trolley and/or buggy ban is in place at a golf club, by not either allowing disabled players an exemption on the ban for medical reasons, or providing suitable infrastructure that would allow buggys / trolley all year round, they are in breach of the Equality Act?
		
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Yes that is right any business or services are under the law since 2010 expected to make reasonable adjustments to ensure disabled people are treated equally and fairly as non disabled people The equality and disability Act is an interesting read Plus the EGU (European Golf Union) consulted with counsel and published a paper advising golf courses to get up to speed to stave of being taken to court if someone was discriminated against!!!


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## ruff-driver (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			Yes that is right any business or services are under the law since 2010 expected to make reasonable adjustments to ensure disabled people are treated equally and fairly as non disabled people The equality and disability Act is an interesting read Plus the EGU (European Golf Union) consulted with counsel and published a paper advising golf courses to get up to speed to stave of being taken to court if someone was discriminated against!!!
		
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Is this the article?  http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2011/12/do-we-need-buggies-to-comply-with-disability-legislation/


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## USER1999 (Jan 22, 2016)

When people at my club say they can't carry, what they tend to mean is I can't carry my flipping great tour bag, stuffed full to the gunnels with stuff I haven't used in years.
Most could play if they took a half set in a pencil bag.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			Yes that is right any business or services are under the law since 2010 expected to make reasonable adjustments to ensure disabled people are treated equally and fairly as non disabled people The equality and disability Act is an interesting read Plus the EGU (European Golf Union) consulted with counsel and published a paper advising golf courses to get up to speed to stave of being taken to court if someone was discriminated against!!!
		
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Are they not treated equally then

Trolleys are banned for all - equal

Buggies are banned for all - equal


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## Slab (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			Yes that is right any business or services are under the law since 2010 *expected to make reasonable adjustments *to ensure disabled people are treated equally and fairly as non disabled people The equality and disability Act is an interesting read Plus the EGU (European Golf Union) consulted with counsel and published a paper advising golf courses to get up to speed to stave of being taken to court if someone was discriminated against!!!
		
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Would installation of a 7km gravel/bark-chip path be seen as a reasonable adjustment or an unreasonable adjustment in order to allow continuous participation in a outdoor recreational activity?


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

DCB said:



			It all boils down to what is a "Reasonable Adjustment" under the DDA. I don't think temporary paths for the wet winter months would fall into this category. I may be wrong, but it'd take a legal case to decide what a club needed to do.
		
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On advice from EAS I am starting that process first thing is to serve a reasonable adjustment letter to the club They have to reply in 28days if non made or planned with in reasonable time I take them to court Similar thing happened in another case a few years agoregarding banning of buggies three disabled elderly men had started process had a court date and just before the hearing the club reverted its policy and allowed them to use the clubs Buggies free of charge The club realised had the case gone to court they would have been instructed to do the adjustments plus pay compensation This is not an isolated case there have been others professional tournaments banned trolleys and Buggies but they were taken to court when it flouted the Act now they allow disabled players to enter the competition with AIDS


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## UlyssesSky (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			Yes that is right any business or services are under the law since 2010 expected to make *reasonable* adjustments to ensure disabled people are treated equally and fairly as non disabled people The equality and disability Act is an interesting read Plus the EGU (European Golf Union) consulted with counsel and published a paper advising golf courses to get up to speed to stave of being taken to court if someone was discriminated against!!!
		
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Have you read your own post? Reasonable is the key word here. And while giving medical exemptions to allow disabled players to use trolleys should be a reasonable adjustment for almost every club (under the assumption that trolleys actually don't damage the course more than walking, a point that's not examined in detail in the report you quote) , you surely have to agree that your request to built suitable infrastrucure for buggies for upwards of five figures so that a handful (if at all) of players can play during a 2 or 3 month period every year hardly falls under the definition of "reasonable adjustment"...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			On advice from EAS I am starting that process first thing is to serve a reasonable adjustment letter to the club They have to reply in 28days if non made or planned with in reasonable time I take them to court Similar thing happened in another case a few years agoregarding banning of buggies three disabled elderly men had started process had a court date and just before the hearing the club reverted its policy and allowed them to use the clubs Buggies free of charge The club realised had the case gone to court they would have been instructed to do the adjustments plus pay compensation This is not an isolated case there have been others professional tournaments banned trolleys and Buggies but they were taken to court when it flouted the Act now they allow disabled players to enter the competition with AIDS
		
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Couple of questions 

Who pays for the paths ?

What happens when the paths flood and then the buggies and trolleys start to churn them up ?

Is the care of the course not the main priority and putting a trolley ban in place is actually for the good of the course to ensure that the members have the best facility possible for them to use 

Suing and taking the club to court - typical of the claim society we live in now - your act isn't for the good of the whole membership - it's for the good of the singular.

What happens if you win and they are forced to build paths that they can't afford and the membership then leaves and the club ends up in financial stress - all because of one person being selfish


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## chrisd (Jan 22, 2016)

Apart from protecting the course a buggy ban often protects the rider, my course, like many, are highly dangerous in wet, muddy conditions as there's slopes that you couldn't safely ride down. 

I'm allowed to use an electric trolley all year round even when there's a ban on, this is due to having a medical exemption which, as far as I know, most clubs will allow for their members to do so long as they can provide a letter from a doctor/consultant confirming their reasons.


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

ruff-driver said:



			Is this the article?  http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2011/12/do-we-need-buggies-to-comply-with-disability-legislation/

Click to expand...

 That's one of the many I have Think some of the negative responders would get help from this though as in my view one should be equipped with facts before engaging mouth or fingers loln


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 22, 2016)

For me, it is quite simple

If a trolley (not Buggy) ban exists on the course, it is because the Greenkeepers have decided that the course is so wet, that damage will be caused if trolleys are allowed,

If it is that wet, then I for one wouldn't want to play under those conditions and I doubt most people would.

Trolley bans tend to be very temporary in nature and are normally lifted as soon as conditions allow, so it is not a long term problem, it is a short term freak weather reaction situation.

If it is a regular occurrence at your club or lasts longer than a week or 2, then consider changing clubs 

All this talk about forcing clubs to build weatherproof paths all round the course is a nonsense as few could afford it, so one wonders if the (new) OP is some kind of ambulance chaser or perhaps he should consider suing God for giving us all this bad weather in the first place


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they not treated equally then

Trolleys are banned for all - equal

Buggies are banned for all - equal
		
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No they not equally treated non disabled can play still some disabled don't have the choice as they CAN NOT carry a bagv Read link that Ruff-driver put on then may be you can engage a brain that has some knowledge rather than the bull **** bigots content you keep putting on here


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## chrisd (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			That's one of the many I have Think some of the negative responders would get help from this though as in my view one should be equipped with facts before engaging mouth or fingers loln
		
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Parts of this are nonsense - driving carts or buggies are often highly dangerous, especially on hilly courses in poor, wet and muddy conditions but still perfectly playable on foot! Expecting the course to close to everyone just because it's not safe for a very small minority is absolutely a most selfish attitude and you should take a hard look at what you're saying!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			No they not equally treated non disabled can play still some non disabled don't have the choice as they CAN NOT carry a bagv Read link that Ruff-driver put on then may be you can engage a brain that has some knowledge rather than the bull **** bigots content you keep putting on here
		
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Bigot ?

On Thursday I play we someone who has a medical cert and had had both hips done - he uses a buggy - when the ban comes in he used a trolley - when the trolley ban comes jn he carries three clubs just so that he is out and enjoy his work . He does that because he understands the reason why the ban is in force is because it's good for the course - he is selfless like that. 

Why can't someone who can swing a golf club not carry a couple clubs in a light bag ?


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## freddielong (Jan 22, 2016)

Trolley bans are in place to allow the green staff the option of leaving a course open that perhaps should be shut. If you remove the option of the green staff banning trolleys the only result will be, the course will be closed more.


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bigot ?

On Thursday I play we someone who has a medical cert and had had both hips done - he uses a buggy - when the ban comes in he used a trolley - when the trolley ban comes jn he carries three clubs just so that he is out and enjoy his work . He does that because he understands the reason why the ban is in force is because it's good for the course - he is selfless like that. 

Why can't someone who can swing a golf club not carry a couple clubs in a light bag ?
		
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Yesterday I couldn't even put a sweater on. There are some people, myself included, who can't carry for 18 holes. Hell's teeth, I struggle to walk 18 holes with a trolley. A broken neck and lower back can leave you with long term issues.

i was told I'd be in a wheelchair, which at least I've avoided that so far but it is on the horizon.

anyway, away from the anecdotal rubbish. Reasonable adjustment includes affordable to the business. And usage supported with a med cert covers t'other. If conditions are unsafe for a sit on buggy, the club also has a duty of care to all users, including those that would be covered by the DDA, and they can be banned.


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## NWJocko (Jan 22, 2016)

Surely the easy way out for clubs would just be to close the course when they would otherwise introduce a trolley ban/carry if you can policy if it ever got that far?

Then nobody is at a disadvantage as nobody can play.


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## garyinderry (Jan 22, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			Surely the easy way out for clubs would just be to close the course when they would otherwise introduce a trolley ban/carry if you can policy if it ever got that far?

Then nobody is at a disadvantage as nobody can play.
		
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Lee park has done that so they don't upset the old guys who rip the course up on drive on buggies.


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## UlyssesSky (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			No they not equally treated non disabled can play still some disabled don't have the choice as they CAN NOT carry a bagv Read link that Ruff-driver put on then may be you can engage a brain that has some knowledge rather than the bull **** bigots content you keep putting on here
		
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The research you quoted ealier states that while trolleys presumably don't damage the course more than walking, buggies definitely do and should be banned during wet/winter periods. Since you quoted that report I guess you're fine with that policy, because you only want trolleys to be allowed but not buggies?

But what about the equal treatment of people who need a buggy, because a trolley isn't enough?

Right - you don't care about them because neither you nor your partner, who only needs a trolley, would be affected by a buggie ban.

You put yourself on a high horse, claim to fight for equal rights when in reality all you care about is your own interests, and you have no inhibitions to harm others in your fight.


As long as that's the case, there's only one bigot or rather hypocrite in this thread - the one you see when you look in the mirror.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 22, 2016)

BTW..... is the OP the genuine article or an imposter


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## chrisd (Jan 22, 2016)

UlyssesSky said:



			The research you quoted ealier states that while trolleys presumably don't damage the course more than walking, buggies definitely do and should be banned during wet/winter periods. Since you quoted that report I guess you're fine with that policy, because you only want trolleys to be allowed but not buggies?

But what about the equal treatment of people who need a buggy, because a trolley isn't enough?

Right - you don't care about them because neither you nor your partner, who only needs a trolley, would be affected by a buggie ban.

You put yourself on a high horse, claim to fight for equal rights when in reality all you care about is your own interests, and you have no inhibitions to harm others in your fight.


As long as that's the case, there's only one bigot or rather hypocrite in this thread - the one you see when you look in the mirror.
		
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Spot on !

I posted before of the selfish nature of the recent post!


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## delc (Jan 22, 2016)

For those who can't carry, I don't think that pull trolleys do that much damage, compared with electric trolleys or golf buggies. Sandy Lodge GC had a carrying only rule last week, but those with a medical certificate could use a pull trolley. I usually leave 3 or 4 clubs out of my bag and carry in the Winter. It's surprising what a difference these few clubs makes. Maybe there is a case for reducing the maximum number of clubs you are allowed to carry, which would reduce the need for trolleys and buggies?  I don't really seem to miss the missing clubs in my bag that much! :mmm:


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## Psychew (Jan 22, 2016)

UlyssesSky said:



			The research you quoted ealier states that while trolleys presumably don't damage the course more than walking, buggies definitely do and should be banned during wet/winter periods. Since you quoted that report I guess you're fine with that policy, because you only want trolleys to be allowed but not buggies?

But what about the equal treatment of people who need a buggy, because a trolley isn't enough?

Right - you don't care about them because neither you nor your partner, who only needs a trolley, would be affected by a buggie ban.

You put yourself on a high horse, claim to fight for equal rights when in reality all you care about is your own interests, and you have no inhibitions to harm others in your fight.


As long as that's the case, there's only one bigot or rather hypocrite in this thread - the one you see when you look in the mirror.
		
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No I advocate for all there for asking for reasonable adjustment and exceptions for those with disability to allow them to play As someone said would be loads of golfers so damage would be minimal esp if paths made for their trolleys and wet weather single ride Buggies available to go on course


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## UlyssesSky (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			No I advocate for all there for asking for reasonable adjustment and exceptions for those with disability to allow them to play As someone said would be loads of golfers so damage would be minimal esp if paths made for their trolleys and wet weather single ride Buggies available to go on course
		
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And you actually consider building trolley paths and purchasing "wet weather single ride buggies" for a handful of golfers per club "reasonable adjustment"?





			[h=2]Full Definition of _bigot_[/h]                      :  a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
		
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## chrisd (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			No I advocate for all there for asking for reasonable adjustment and exceptions for those with disability to allow them to play As someone said would be loads of golfers so damage would be minimal esp if paths made for their trolleys and wet weather single ride Buggies available to go on course
		
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I don't see that your requests are in any way "reasonable". Have you any idea about golf and the cost implications of what you suggest? If clubs were to forced to do this, or close, when conditions would require no buggies/trolleys then your totally selfish attitude would just stop everyone playing. 

I can't believe that you're so utterly selfish!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew said:



			No I advocate for all there for asking for reasonable adjustment and exceptions for those with disability to allow them to play As someone said would be loads of golfers so damage would be minimal esp if paths made for their trolleys and wet weather single ride Buggies available to go on course
		
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Reasonable went out the window the minute you mentioned taking clubs to court


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## Val (Jan 22, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I have found the elusive needle in a haystack - a post from Doon that I agree with. 

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:rofl:

You are not alone in that


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## AMcC (Jan 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reasonable went out the window the minute you mentioned taking clubs to court
		
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I would add that it always difficult to quantify reasonable.

Is the cost of installing paths to the required standards, possibly hundreds of thousands of pounds, reasonable if it is only to benefit less than 1% of the club's membership. 

There is an apocryphal story about a club, let's say somewhere in Central Scotland, that was being forced to install such paths and the wheels came of the case when the main complainant was seen carrying his cart bag over his shoulder all the way back to the clubhouse after his buggy broke down in the corner of the course furthest away from the clubhouse.


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## garyinderry (Jan 22, 2016)

I see no reason why anyone with a disability, serous or slight, cannot use a trolly if they so wish. 

It is ride on buggies that I have problems with. 

A course can use common sense and ask for trollies to stick to the rough for those disabled or too old to carry. 

Common sense should be applied by all sides here. Management and players.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 22, 2016)

Hello Psychew, welcome to the forum :thup: Will you be sticking around after this thread has died a death due to boredom?

For what it's worth, there really isn't much in the way of 'serious' golf played at this time of year, it's just about a bit of fresh air and exercise. Bearing this in mind, is there any reason why your 'friend' can't just go out with a small pencil bag and 5 or 6 clubs instead of requiring a fully loaded trolley? Or have you just got a bee in your bonnet and you're trying to stir up ill-informed trouble?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Hello Psychew, welcome to the forum :thup: Will you be sticking around after this thread has died a death due to boredom?

For what it's worth, there really isn't much in the way of 'serious' golf played at this time of year, it's just about a bit of fresh air and exercise. Bearing this in mind, *is there any reason why your 'friend' can't just go out with a small pencil bag and 5 or 6 clubs instead of requiring a fully loaded trolley?* Or have you just got a bee in your bonnet and you're trying to stir up ill-informed trouble?
		
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I would agree with this. Or if it's just a friendly game why not offer to let him put 3 or 4 clubs in your bag and you can carry them for him? Driver, 6/7 iron, wedge and putter would get most people round a course if they wanted to play.

Also, I don't know the full rules regarding the Disability Discrimination Act but how can it be discriminatory against disabled people if everyone is being treated the same by not allowing buggies/trolleys?


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## chellie (Jan 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Also, I don't know the full rules regarding the Disability Discrimination Act but how can it be discriminatory against disabled people if everyone is being treated the same by not allowing buggies/trolleys?
		
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Agree with this.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 22, 2016)

Psychew

I haven't read all the replies on here and I'm sure it has already been mentioned but have you considered that buggy/trolley bans are also imposed for H&S reasons? My course has several steep hills and paths, if it is wet/muddy/frosty they can be quite dangerous. When there is a trolley ban in place, you can route traffic through the rough or trees to avoid these areas. I'm sure disabled people appreciate the club looking out for their welfare  :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Also, I don't know the full rules regarding the Disability Discrimination Act but how can it be discriminatory against disabled people if everyone is being treated the same by not allowing buggies/trolleys?
		
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It's more about achieving equitable outcomes, I believe. The impact of banning trolleys disproportionately affects someone who is unable to carry due to disability.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 22, 2016)

My club doesn't have a trolley ban which means you get a ton of rut marks across fringes of greens because some idiots think that is acceptable to drive their 4-wheel tractors as close to the putting surface as possible.   We even pointed this out to one of the main culprits, the club president and he just shrugged his shoulders and then carried on bitching about the state of the rest of the course.  Real "I'm all right Jack" attitude.


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## fenwayrich (Jan 22, 2016)

I am not an expert on the Equality Act, but not allowing the use of buggies would seem to be a potential example of indirect discrimination. This occurs when a practice is applied in the same way to everybody but it puts individuals with a disability at a particular disadvantage.  However the legislation also states that indirect discrimination can be justified if the practice is a reasonable way of achieving a legitimate aim.

I think it is fair to say that the banning of buggies (and indeed trollies) with the aim of protecting the course from excessive damage in wet winter weather) is perfectly legitimate.


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## bluewolf (Jan 22, 2016)

Simple solution.. Trolley/Buggy ban stays in place for everyone who cannot provide a medical certificate.. Also, ask the membership to be more aware of those who struggle.. I'd quite happily carry a few extra clubs for a PP who was struggling to get out on the course otherwise..


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## Sats (Jan 22, 2016)

Why would you want to ruin a course? I'm sure those who churn up the fairways would moan if it was hooligans on 50cc blatting around. Also they'd be the first to moan that someone hasn't got a tailored shirt on or god forbid has a hat on in the bar.......right hook anyone?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 22, 2016)

Unfortunately in life, things aren't always fair and sometimes you just have to accept that some people will be disadvantaged. Where does it end? Why not make all amateur football 'walking only' so that older people or slightly chubby people can compete on an even level?

OK, tongue in cheek but sometimes that's just the way it is.


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## delc (Jan 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's more about achieving equitable outcomes, I believe. The impact of banning trolleys disproportionately affects someone who is unable to carry due to disability.
		
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So allow those who can produce a medical certificate describing their disability to use at least a pull trolley. That is what Sandy Lodge GC have done. The vast majority of golfers will not be using a trolley and any damage to the course will be minimised.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Unfortunately in life, things aren't always fair and sometimes you just have to accept that some people will be disadvantaged. Where does it end? Why not make all amateur football 'walking only' so that older people or slightly chubby people can compete on an even level?

OK, tongue in cheek but sometimes that's just the way it is.
		
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Like golf handicaps, you mean?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Like golf handicaps, you mean?  

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You could be onto something there!   Life handicaps  

#scratchlifer
#Cat2lifer

etc


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2016)

delc said:



			For those who can't carry, I don't think that pull trolleys do that much damage, compared with electric trolleys or golf buggies. Sandy Lodge GC had a carrying only rule last week, but those with a medical certificate could use a pull trolley. I usually leave 3 or 4 clubs out of my bag and carry in the Winter. It's surprising what a difference these few clubs makes. Maybe there is a case for reducing the maximum number of clubs you are allowed to carry, which would reduce the need for trolleys and buggies?  I don't really seem to miss the missing clubs in my bag that much! :mmm:
		
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...or get a caddy to carry your bag for you.


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## Face breaker (Jan 22, 2016)

Our club is on an 'as and when necessary' basis !...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2016)

We have had a trolley ban on 5 of our holes due to new drainage being laid 

We tried get everyone going down temp path but due to wet conditions and the amount of traffic going through the ground soon become a mess and an issue for trolleys getting stuck 

Thankfully all the members are aware of this and fully appreciative of the reason why there is a ban


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## garyinderry (Jan 22, 2016)

Could clubs by pass any potential court rulings by getting members to sign up to terms and conditions when joining that state their will be trolly bans, as and when decided by the powers that be?


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## HankMarvin (Jan 22, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Could clubs by pass any potential court rulings by getting members to sign up to terms and conditions when joining that state their will be trolly bans, as and when decided by the powers that be?
		
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A bit extreme is it not, members should accept things like this are done to help the course. Maybe they should get any member new or existing to sign a contract stating that if they are caught taking longer than 3 1/2 hours to play a round then they get banned for a month or so, that would speed thing up for sure & see a lot of slow players get banned.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 22, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



*A bit extreme is it not, members should accept things like this are done to help the course*. Maybe they should get any member new or existing to sign a contract stating that if they are caught taking longer than 3 1/2 hours to play a round then they get banned for a month or so, that would speed thing up for sure & see a lot of slow players get banned.
		
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Yes it is and yes they should but you only have to look at the earlier posts from the guy that is threatening to sue the club to see that it might be necessary. I do however like your suggestion to avoid slow play with just a couple of minor tweaks.....3 hours max for a round and a 6 month ban for a first offence, 12 months for a second offence and a lifetime ban for any further transgressions.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes it is and yes they should but you only have to look at the earlier posts from the guy that is threatening to sue the club to see that it might be necessary. I do however like your suggestion to avoid slow play with just a couple of minor tweaks.....3 hours max for a round and a 6 month ban for a first offence, 12 months for a second offence and a lifetime ban for any further transgressions. 

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Auld Hank Likes your way off thinking


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes it is and yes they should but you only have to look *at the earlier posts from the guy *that is threatening to sue the club to see that it might be necessary. I do however like your suggestion to avoid slow play with just a couple of minor tweaks.....3 hours max for a round and a 6 month ban for a first offence, 12 months for a second offence and a lifetime ban for any further transgressions. 

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Bit of an assumption *there *as @psychew states in the post that resurrected this thread...

_*My partner *is disabled and *his *club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision_

In fact in that original thread it's not clear if @psychew actually plays the game because reference is made to _*his*_ club and not _*our club*_.  I may have missed statements in this thread by @psychew since that original one that clarifies these thoughts; but this might explain the rather lack of understanding shown at times by @psychew of the issues, and the pressures on greenkeepers and greens committees, in respect of golf course management in extremely wet weather.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 22, 2016)

So would it be better to just close the course for everyone. 

Some people just need to accept that they might not be able to play due to not being able to walk & carry, simples


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## Nashy (Jan 22, 2016)

The problem you have is its the retired members that keep course alive with there play during the weekdays, if you banned trolleys all together at our place like they tired in the past there would be no money coming into the club at all. Hedgehog wheels are made mandatory and all stick to it.

How you can expect 70+ year olds to still carry a bag is a little unfair. My old man is 76 has 2 hip replacements, and suffers from COPD. He will play twice a week during the winter and is still off 14. He's not alone in this they all range from 60-80 who play in the week and all still play to a good standard.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Jan 22, 2016)

Nashy said:



			The problem you have is its the retired members that keep course alive with there play during the weekdays, if you banned trolleys all together at our place like they tired in the past there would be no money coming into the club at all. Hedgehog wheels are made mandatory and all stick to it.

How you can expect 70+ year olds to still carry a bag is a little unfair. My old man is 76 has 2 hip replacements, and suffers from COPD. He will play twice a week during the winter and is still off 14. He's not alone in this they all range from 60-80 who play in the week and all still play to a good standard.
		
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3 cheers for your old man and his buddies.

* Life's tough and I wouldn't want a course closed just because some folk can't carry a bag. Same for the fatties, if you can't tread lightly then take some time off.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2016)

We have had trolly bans in recent weeks, and buggies are still banned. Our current advice according to the website is "carry where possible" Now what that means and how many still use trollies I don't know as I've not been up in a while although its a comp tomorrow so we'll see. It asks to stick to the roped off paths but I know from before Christmas these areas were getting churned badly in places

I agree with the sentiment that it is the seniors that keep the club active during the week, even if they don't necessarily spend masses in the 19th. They are at least utilising the course. As for the debate regarding a buggy ban and a disabled member, I can't see anything other than a court ruling deciding the outcome and I can see it being costly for the club, especially in terms of any "suitable adjustments". Some very interesting and vociferous comments


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 22, 2016)

our club issues an electric ban on trolleys ,push or pull trolleys are fine ,but i will just get the pencil bag out and use that ,saves getting the trolley all yucky and muddy ,a stand bag stays clean.


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## Fish (Jan 22, 2016)

How did I miss this!

We're carry only tomorrow, if anyone can't carry I need my 2 cars & van washing and a few shopping chores done, should get the old heart pumping and take about the same time as my round, when your finished I'll then buy the tea & crumpets &#128077;&#128514;


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## Oddsocks (Jan 22, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			When people at my club say they can't carry, what they tend to mean is I can't carry my flipping great tour bag, stuffed full to the gunnels with stuff I haven't used in years.
Most could play if they took a half set in a pencil bag.
		
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:thup:


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## Hickory_Hacker (Jan 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have had trolly bans in recent weeks, and buggies are still banned. Our current advice according to the website is "carry where possible" Now what that means and how many still use trollies I don't know as I've not been up in a while although its a comp tomorrow so we'll see. It asks to stick to the roped off paths but I know from before Christmas these areas were getting churned badly in places

I agree with the sentiment that it is the seniors that keep the club active during the week, even if they don't necessarily spend masses in the 19th. They are at least utilising the course. As for the debate regarding a buggy ban and a disabled member, I can't see anything other than a court ruling deciding the outcome and I can see it being costly for the club, especially in terms of any "suitable adjustments". Some very interesting and vociferous comments
		
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Homer, no offence here but your club's "carry where possible" means nothing, folk will do exactly what they want.

My vote goes to the club that's banning the 4x4, buggy or trolley and if the disabled guy needs to sit it out then it can't be helped.

On a lighter note I'd ban some fatties because they can also churn it up, a set of scales on the first tee and a weigh in  :thup:


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## Hickory_Hacker (Jan 22, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			:thup:
		
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Exactly.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2016)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Homer, no offence here but your club's "carry where possible" means nothing, folk will do exactly what they want.

My vote goes to the club that's banning the 4x4, buggy or trolley and if the disabled guy needs to sit it out then it can't be helped.

On a lighter note I'd ban some fatties because they can also churn it up, a set of scales on the first tee and a weigh in  :thup:
		
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Absolutely and I'm sure 95% of the comp field tomorrow will have a trolley unless they put a blanket ban. It's typical of the woolly instructions we get at the moment. To be honest the course has suffered and some holes especially on the back nine have poor areas, even roped off to protect the immediate area around the green and the fringe. We should have a firm, carry only, trolly with hedgehogs or trollies allowed. Simple


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## Oddsocks (Jan 22, 2016)

DCB said:



			Interesting read, but as someone who would had a serious accident and now has a heightened awareness of what disabled people need need I don't agree with the post that restarted this old thread. I'm afraid that if the course conditions are such that a trolley or buggy ban was in force, then conditions are such that I wouldn't want to put myself at more risk out on the course than was necessary. We are each responsible for our own personal safety. Same criteria would be used if I was to measure up the risk of playing on a wet summers day.
		
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Very sensible reply


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## Smiffy (Jan 23, 2016)

Psychew said:



			On advice from EAS I am starting that process first thing is to serve a reasonable adjustment letter to the club They have to reply in 28days if non made or planned with in reasonable time I take them to court Similar thing happened in another case a few years ago regarding banning of buggies three disabled elderly men had started process had a court date and just before the hearing the club reverted its policy and allowed them to use the clubs Buggies free of charge The club realised had the case gone to court they would have been instructed to do the adjustments plus pay compensation
		
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Happy New Year


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## delc (Jan 23, 2016)

Psychew said:



			On advice from EAS I am starting that process first thing is to serve a reasonable adjustment letter to the club They have to reply in 28days if non made or planned with in reasonable time I take them to court Similar thing happened in another case a few years agoregarding banning of buggies three disabled elderly men had started process had a court date and just before the hearing the club reverted its policy and allowed them to use the clubs Buggies free of charge The club realised had the case gone to court they would have been instructed to do the adjustments plus pay compensation This is not an isolated case there have been others professional tournaments banned trolleys and Buggies but they were taken to court when it flouted the Act now they allow disabled players to enter the competition with AIDS
		
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If you legally force golf clubs not to discriminate against the disabled in terms of full access to the course and trolley or buggy use in wet conditions, then all that will happen is that they will close the course and nobody will be able to play!


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## Oddsocks (Jan 23, 2016)

delc said:



			If you legally force golf clubs not to discriminate against the disabled in terms of trolley or buggy use in wet conditions, then all that will happen is that they will close the course and nobody will be able to play!  

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:thup: not rocket science.

The the majority of the membership gets the arse because it's always closed and look elsewhere 

The membership drops, as does the revenue to the club meaning cut backs or raised fees

The circle continues and runs the ground into the floor before selling the club to a developer

Seems the OP is only interested in their own gains, maybe they should look to move to a club which caters more for the buggy / trolley requirements


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 23, 2016)

Disability in golf is full of grey areas.

As someone who has been at the sharp end I have observed many individuals claiming a blue card who are perfectly fit to walk around 18 holes of golf at a steady pace. Yet they will park in a disabled space at a supermarket.

I am reminded of telling a one armed golfer that he was entitled to discounted fees to be thanked and politely told that he did not consider himself disabled.
The doctors note does not work as you will find 25% of midweek golfers can manage to supply one.
When the other 75% witness this they feel aggrieved.
I have found that genuine disabled golfers will respect the greenstaff/course/club and not play on days when they feel their buggy will damage the course.
The guy with the dodgy blue card will not.


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## delc (Jan 23, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			:thup: not rocket science.

The the majority of the membership gets the arse because it's always closed and look elsewhere 

The membership drops, as does the revenue to the club meaning cut backs or raised fees

The circle continues and runs the ground into the floor before selling the club to a developer

Seems the OP is only interested in their own gains, maybe they should look to move to a club which caters more for the buggy / trolley requirements
		
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How many UK courses have cart paths all the way round? Not many I suspect! And laying 4-5 miles of hard surfaced track is not a cheap exercise! Whilst I have every sympathy for the disabled, and would certainly encourage them to play golf, perhaps they should accept that there are occasions that for their own safety, the good of others and the protection of courses, they should refrain from doing so.


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## Nashy (Jan 23, 2016)

I will add that I trolley during the summer months. I do always however carry during the winter. For people who are not physically able to do this I won't knock them for using a trolley. If the course is getting so badly torn up from people using trolleys using hedgehog wheels then I would question if the course should be open at all.


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## Smiffy (Jan 23, 2016)

I could carry but prefer using my GoKart.
Course is open at the moment, carrying only.
I've decided not to bother.
My choice, and I couldn't really give a rat's ass.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2016)

I played over Xmas and got chatting in the pro shop before we went out. They'd had a phone call from a 4 ball who were looking to come and play the course. The guy on the phone mentioned that they were ex servicemen and did the course offer any discounts for disabled people. They guy in the pro shop said yes and asked if they could bring proof of disability with them when they came. The response from the guy on the phone was "Well we've only got 3 legs between the 4 of us, will that be proof enough"?


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## Oddsocks (Jan 23, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			I could carry but prefer using my GoKart.
Course is open at the moment, carrying only.
I've decided not to bother.
My choice, and I couldn't really give a rat's ass.
		
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But to be honest you are an old codger mr smiff


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## Fish (Jan 23, 2016)

Psychew said:



			On advice from EAS I am starting that process first thing is to serve a reasonable adjustment letter to the club They have to reply in 28days if non made or planned with in reasonable time I take them to court Similar thing happened in another case a few years agoregarding banning of buggies three disabled elderly men had started process had a court date and just before the hearing the club reverted its policy and allowed them to use the clubs Buggies free of charge The club realised had the case gone to court they would have been instructed to do the adjustments plus pay compensation This is not an isolated case there have been others professional tournaments banned trolleys and Buggies but they were taken to court when it flouted the Act now they allow disabled players to enter the competition with AIDS
		
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You sir are a knob, everyone would like to say the same, but hey, I'll take the lead, I don't care whether it's you or your partner are disabled or whether your just a mouth piece for the cause, what your doing I think would make most disabled or elderly people whom want to be treated equally and without prejudice embarrassed by your actions and stance, what your selfish attitude is clearly displaying is, that if the use of buggies or even trolleys have to be banned on any particular day for the good of the course and safety reasons no able bodied people who are able to carry should use the said the course meaning it would have to close to keep the status quo, what a complete selfish and missuse of your disability that is, you sir should be ashamed of yourself IMO, trying to force a club to create soecific pathways when not needed is a nonesence, you chose to join the club, if your not happy, jog on to somewhere else but, I would imagine you've got a bit of a reputation in your area for being a trouble maker but obviously hide behind the disability side of things, which I find totally unacceptable and very distasteful.


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## delc (Jan 23, 2016)

Does anybody have any evidence that Hedgehog wheels actually reduce damage to the course?  Our muddier areas now have lots of little dimple marks where trolleys with Hedgehog wheels have run over them. Our club made them compulsory for the Winter use of trolleys a few years ago, so despite some doubts from our course manager, now that the members have invested considerable sums of money equipping their trolleys with Hedgehogs, they can hardly retract this concession!  The other problem with them is that they make electric trolleys consume more power, so that 18 hole batteries now only last 15 holes! Thus quite a few members have also had to buy higher capacity 36 hole batteries to make sure of getting round 18 holes!


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## Oddsocks (Jan 23, 2016)

Fish said:



			You sir are a knob, everyone would like to say the same, but hey, I'll take the lead, I don't care whether it's you or your partner are disabled or whether your just a mouth piece for the cause, what your doing I think would make most disabled or elderly people whom want to be treated equally and without prejudice embarrassed by your actions and stance, what your selfish attitude is clearly displaying is, that if the use of buggies or even trolleys have to be banned on any particular day for the good of the course and safety reasons no able bodied people who are able to carry should use the said the course meaning it would have to close to keep the status quo, what a complete selfish and missuse of your disability that is, you sir should be ashamed of yourself IMO, trying to force a club to create soecific pathways when not needed is a nonesence, you chose to join the club, if your not happy, jog on to somewhere else but, I would imagine you've got a bit of a reputation in your area for being a trouble maker but obviously hide behind the disability side of things, which I find totally unacceptable and very distasteful.
		
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Fish... I'm kinda lost in the point your trying to make :rofl:

Surely it's only fair that the 95% able bodied carriers miss out because wobbly bob wants to play golf.

FWIW, I'm about to have a knee op where my golf is going to be affected.  If I really want to play in the winter it will be half set in a pencil bag... Simple!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 23, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			:thup: not rocket science.

The the majority of the membership gets the arse because it's always closed and look elsewhere 

The membership drops, as does the revenue to the club meaning cut backs or raised fees

The circle continues and runs the ground into the floor before selling the club to a developer

Seems the OP is only interested in their own gains, maybe they should look to move to a club which caters more for the buggy / trolley requirements
		
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It does seem to be blatantly obvious and a case of the few, however unfortunate their situation wanting their cake and eating it and screw the majority who contribute by far and away the majority of the income to the club. The club will shut the course at every opportunity to protect themselves in iffy weather and the core of the club suffers



Fish said:



			You sir are a knob, everyone would like to say the same, but hey, I'll take the lead, I don't care whether it's you or your partner are disabled or whether your just a mouth piece for the cause, what your doing I think would make most disabled or elderly people whom want to be treated equally and without prejudice embarrassed by your actions and stance, what your selfish attitude is clearly displaying is, that if the use of buggies or even trolleys have to be banned on any particular day for the good of the course and safety reasons no able bodied people who are able to carry should use the said the course meaning it would have to close to keep the status quo, what a complete selfish and missuse of your disability that is, you sir should be ashamed of yourself IMO, trying to force a club to create soecific pathways when not needed is a nonesence, you chose to join the club, if your not happy, jog on to somewhere else but, I would imagine you've got a bit of a reputation in your area for being a trouble maker but obviously hide behind the disability side of things, which I find totally unacceptable and very distasteful.
		
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Not sure I concur with the insult in the first sentence but I feel the OP's action seems petty and blinkered. If for example a court declares cart pathhs have to be laid, not only could that be a financial outgoing too far for some clubs in the current climate, but it would decimate the feel and look of many courses. As much as I empathise with the OP's situation and it's great to see people not letting a disability stop their enjoyment of golf, this decision seems short sighted and wrong


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2016)

Its not the (new) OP, its the (new) OP'S partner that plays and has the disability
The (new ) OP obviously has never played the game nor has any idea how Golf Courses work or the funding involved.
He probably works for "Injury Lawyers 4 You"  or is the sort of Litigant that gives Litigants a bad name.


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## guest100718 (Jan 23, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Its not the (new) OP, its the (new) OP'S partner that plays and has the disability
The (new ) OP obviously has never played the game nor has any idea how Golf Courses work or the funding involved.
He probably works for "Injury Lawyers 4 You"  or is the sort of Litigant that gives Litigants a bad name.
		
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whats with the (new)?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2016)

Its an old thread, dug up by the "new" OP who resurrected it

look at the date of the first post


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## ChrisB0210 (Jan 23, 2016)

My club has never banned trolleys in winter, although last year we did have a request to carry if we were able to (I did).

As our membership is generally the top side of 50, I think a ban is unlikely unless the course really started to suffer. We're lucky as our course drains quite well and the Greens staff do rope off vulnerable areas to protect them from trolleys. We also use fairway mats in winter to help protect the course, so perhaps that helps avoid a trolley ban?

I do use an electric trolley due to long standing neck and shoulder issues (injuries from other sports) and it's fitted with hedgehog wheels. I'm not sure how they help the course, but that said, my tracks don't seem to be as noticeable as those left by summer wheels.

If a ban was implemented then I'd carry, but would have to consider what stayed in the bag and what could be left behind at home.

Interestingly, one of our older members has an acquaintance who is a Conultant Orthopaedic Surgeon. He tells me that the Surgeon says he'd ban carrying for all golfers all year round because of the damage and strain it can cause to certain parts of the body.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 23, 2016)

ChrisB0210 said:



			Interestingly, one of our older members has an acquaintance who is a Conultant Orthopaedic Surgeon. He tells me that the Surgeon says he'd ban carrying for all golfers all year round because of the damage and strain it can cause to certain parts of the body.
		
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i think if you spoke to any medical experts that would advise against most daily activities, strongly suggest wrapping yourself in bubble wrap and hide in the bottom of the walldrobe or under the bed to avoid injury, but I seriously doubt 7-10 kilo's for 5 min stints over 4 hours is going to do serious harm,


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## Farneyman (Jan 23, 2016)

Another good excuse to post this 




Great to see thecraw still creating stimulating debates. :rofl:


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## delc (Jan 23, 2016)

A bit of history about trolley bans, etc, at our club. Generally speaking, there was no problem with using pull or electric trolleys for 10 months of the year, but in the depths of Winter there was often a trolley ban for a month or two, and players had to carry.  The seniors objected to this, as some of them were partially disabled due to bad backs, dodgy knees, or arthritic hips, and found carrying difficult. A compromise was reached in that except under the most extreme conditions, a pull trolley fitted with hedgehog wheels could be used. This was extended a year later to include electric trolleys fitted with hedgehogs. However, we have recently had some very extreme conditions due to excessive rainfall, and it has been necessary on occasions to close the course completely, or to insist on carrying only. This has been communicated to the membership on a daily basis on the club website, or they could telephone the pro shop and ask. So this is really take it or leave it. Probably a lot of the seniors don't want to play anyway in these conditions, and the (covered) range has been kept open for those who wish to have a swing and practice.  Can't see that the trolley bans actually discriminate again the disabled as such!


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## StevieT (Jan 23, 2016)

Frequency of trolley bans was one of the main questions I asked when looking to join a new club last year.  With my chronic heart condition just walking is a bit of a problem so no way I could contemplate carrying even just a half set of clubs. 

Suffice to say that the club I was going to join assured me that they never ban trolleys, nor do they even stipulate hedgehog wheels.  Imagine my surprise when seeing on twitter the other day that they have had a complete trolley ban on for the last few weeks!  Good thing I didn't move there then!


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## Fish (Jan 24, 2016)

Stegsie said:



			Frequency of trolley bans was one of the main questions I asked when looking to join a new club last year.  With my chronic heart condition just walking is a bit of a problem so no way I could contemplate carrying even just a half set of clubs. 

Suffice to say that the club I was going to join assured me that they never ban trolleys, nor do they even stipulate hedgehog wheels.  Imagine my surprise when seeing on twitter the other day that they have had a complete trolley ban on for the last few weeks!  Good thing I didn't move there then!
		
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I think this could be the case for many clubs though this year, there have been courses that have never closed of had any restrictions in place before but you have to accept that we have just endured record amounts of unprecedented rainfall, and as such, although the statements were correct at that time, nature cannot be second guessed nor can any club be judged or critacised due to these record mild spells over our winter bringing all this rain.  To see Links & Heathland courses closed which are on excellent sand based drainage speaks volumes, so I think it's unfair to judge any parkland course for having to adopt to abnormal conditions not experienced before.


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## delc (Jan 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			I think this could be the case for many clubs though this year, there have been courses that have never closed of had any restrictions in place before but you have to accept that we have just endured record amounts of unprecedented rainfall, and as such, although the statements were correct at that time, nature cannot be second guessed nor can any club be judged or critacised due to these record mild spells over our winter bringing all this rain.  To see Links & Heathland courses closed which are on excellent sand based drainage speaks volumes, so I think it's unfair to judge any parkland course for having to adopt to abnormal conditions not experienced before.
		
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Exactly right!  :thup:


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## North Mimms (Jan 24, 2016)

delc said:



			A bit of history about trolley bans, etc, at our club. Generally speaking, there was no problem with using pull or electric trolleys for 10 months of the year, but in the depths of Winter there was often a trolley ban for a month or two, and players had to carry.  The seniors objected to this, as some of them were partially disabled due to bad backs, dodgy knees, or arthritic hips, and found carrying difficult. A compromise was reached in that except under the most extreme conditions, a pull trolley fitted with hedgehog wheels could be used. This was extended a year later to include electric trolleys fitted with hedgehogs. However, we have recently had some very extreme conditions due to excessive rainfall, and it has been necessary on occasions to close the course completely, or to insist on carrying only. This has been communicated to the membership on a daily basis on the club website, or they could telephone the pro shop and ask. So this is really take it or leave it. Probably a lot of the seniors don't want to play anyway in these conditions, and the (covered) range has been kept open for those who wish to have a swing and practice.  Can't see that the trolley bans actually discriminate again the disabled as such!  

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I think BPGC rather shot themselves in the foot by actively encouraging members to buy HH wheels for their electric trolleys by saying they would never ban such trolleys.
I was speaking to some members last week who said it's a churned up mud bath in places.

They should have stopped at allowing HH on pull trolleys only


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## delc (Jan 24, 2016)

North Mimms said:



			I think BPGC rather shot themselves in the foot by actively encouraging members to buy HH wheels for their electric trolleys by saying they would never ban such trolleys.
I was speaking to some members last week who said it's a churned up mud bath in places.

They should have stopped at allowing HH on pull trolleys only
		
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Actually, a lot of the churning up has been caused by the green keepers attempting to cut the fairway grass in extremely wet conditions. The weather has been so warm and wet this winter that the grass hasn't stopped growing, as you would normally expect it to do in the Winter. I did ask the question earlier in this thread about whether HH wheels really do cause less damage than plain wheels on trolleys?  Unfortunately BPGC has suffered an almost perfect storm in the last couple of months.  I can never remember it being closed for reasons other than lying snow before!


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## North Mimms (Jan 24, 2016)

I have recently moved clubs and was having a chat with Pro about closures and trolley bans.

I visited the club a few years ago and was aware that they did have trolley bans and temp greens in the winter then. Howver with a new Head GK, things have changed.
They no longer have temp greens.

They gave up with "trolley bans apart from those with medical needs" as with an average age around 70, there were still more trolleys being used than people carrying.
Now they either allow trolleys or they close the course.

It has been closed a fair bit since new year, but judging from posts on the forum, it's been closed less than some other courses. 
The upshot is that I played golf yesterday (with trolley) and the course is in fair nick. Soft in places but the only really muddy bits are pinch points in front of tees, with little mud around the greens.

There are no double buggies but a few single seaters.
These  are occasionally banned when trolleys are still ok , normally on back 9 which is much hillier than front 9 so is not safe for buggies when very soft or slippy


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## StevieT (Jan 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			I think this could be the case for many clubs though this year, there have been courses that have never closed of had any restrictions in place before but you have to accept that we have just endured record amounts of unprecedented rainfall, and as such, although the statements were correct at that time, nature cannot be second guessed nor can any club be judged or critacised due to these record mild spells over our winter bringing all this rain.  To see Links & Heathland courses closed which are on excellent sand based drainage speaks volumes, so I think it's unfair to judge any parkland course for having to adopt to abnormal conditions not experienced before.
		
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Fair point, Fish.

:thup:


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## delc (Jan 24, 2016)

Just wondering about the advisability of staying on permanent greens during the Winter. My club nearly always does, and they can become a little bit lumpy by the springtime as a result. Due to recent course closures, our greens have had a bit of a rest and are pretty perfect at the moment, despite all the rain. However they are raised USGA ones and drain very well. The fairways and rough are in far worse condition!  

In frosty weather we use 'frost holes' which are normal sized holes cut about 4 feet onto the front edge of the greens. Generally, in such conditions, if you pitch the ball onto the green it will run to the back of the green, but if you land it just short it will just stick in the grass. As players still often have to walk onto the green to play their next shot, I am not sure how these frost holes are really supposed to help?!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			:thup: not rocket science.

The the majority of the membership gets the arse because it's always closed and look elsewhere 

The membership drops, as does the revenue to the club meaning cut backs or raised fees

The circle continues and runs the ground into the floor before selling the club to a developer

Seems the OP is only interested in their own gains, maybe they should look to move to a club which caters more for the buggy / trolley requirements
		
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As I mentioned in a previous post -I'm not sure so about your assumption about this being about their own gain.




_Bit of an assumption there as @psychew states in the post that resurrected this thread...

*My partner *is disabled and *his *club like many others have a trolley ban I am at this point fighting the decision

In fact in that original thread it's not clear if @psychew actually plays the game because reference is made to *his *club and not *our *club. I may have missed statements in this thread by @psychew since that original one that clarifies these thoughts; but this might explain the rather lack of understanding shown at times by @psychew of the issues, and the pressures on greenkeepers and greens committees, in respect of golf course management in extremely wet weather._

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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Its not the (new) OP, its the (new) OP'S partner that plays and has the disability
The (new ) OP obviously has never played the game nor has any idea how Golf Courses work or the funding involved.
He probably works for "Injury Lawyers 4 You"  or is the sort of Litigant that gives Litigants a bad name.
		
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JustsSpotted your post on this having just re-iterated it myself.  But quite.  I get the impression that the OP doesn't actually plays the game.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2016)

ChrisB0210 said:



			My club has never banned trolleys in winter, although last year we did have a request to carry if we were able to (I did).

As our membership is generally the top side of 50, I think a ban is unlikely unless the course really started to suffer. We're lucky as our course drains quite well and the Greens staff do rope off vulnerable areas to protect them from trolleys. We also use fairway mats in winter to help protect the course, so perhaps that helps avoid a trolley ban?

I do use an electric trolley due to long standing neck and shoulder issues (injuries from other sports) and it's fitted with hedgehog wheels. I'm not sure how they help the course, but that said, my tracks don't seem to be as noticeable as those left by summer wheels.

*If a ban was implemented then I'd carry, but would have to consider what stayed in the bag and what could be left behind at home.*

Interestingly, one of our older members has an acquaintance who is a Conultant Orthopaedic Surgeon. He tells me that the Surgeon says he'd ban carrying for all golfers all year round because of the damage and strain it can cause to certain parts of the body.
		
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Which actually suggests that you would probably be OK with an outright ban.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			I think this could be the case for many clubs though this year, there have been courses that have never closed of had any restrictions in place before but you have to accept that we have just endured record amounts of unprecedented rainfall, and as such, although the statements were correct at that time, nature cannot be second guessed nor can any club be judged or critacised due to these record mild spells over our winter bringing all this rain.  To see Links & Heathland courses closed which are on excellent sand based drainage speaks volumes, so I think it's unfair to judge any parkland course for having to adopt to abnormal conditions not experienced before.
		
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This is our place.  A sand-based largely heathland course - we basically have historically rarely had any flooding issues - until the last few years.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I mentioned in a previous post -I'm not sure so about your assumption about this being about their own gain.
		
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Maybe gain is the wrong term.  It seems to be that the OP only has her partners interests in mind and to hell with anyone else of the repercussions that this wirl wind could potentially cause.

Better?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			JustsSpotted your post on this having just re-iterated it myself.  But quite.  I get the impression that the OP doesn't actually plays the game.
		
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West Kilbride member I believe.


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## AMcC (Jan 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			West Kilbride member I believe.

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Not any more


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## ChrisB0210 (Jan 24, 2016)

Seems I spoke to soon. Thanks to the actions of a few selfish idiots we're now faced with either a trolley ban or course closure until it dries out a bit. 

This morning our green staff discovered that somebody had taken their trolley(s) straight up a roped off fairway and to compound this stunning act of ignorance, had also run the trolley over part of the Green!

Discussing this with my playing partners led us to conclude that it was probably an older, long standing member affronted at being directed to the path to the side of the fairway and possibly somebody well in with the powers that be at our club.

Really annoying that a few idiots can spoil things for all of us. In terms of next week's comps, then if it's carry only then I'll comply but will have to have a good think about which clubs can have the weekend off to keep the weight down and hope for the best.

That said, long range weather forecasts are suggesting a load more rain this week, so no guarantees we'll be playing anyway.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 24, 2016)

Minority v majority

Minority always ruins it for the majority


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## Farneyman (Jan 24, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			Minority v majority

Minority always ruins it for the majority
		
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Just like here at times :rofl:


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## ChrisB0210 (Jan 24, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			Minority v majority

Minority always ruins it for the majority
		
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Exactly what we said this morning. Still frustrating though.


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## rulefan (Jan 25, 2016)

delc said:



			Does anybody have any evidence that Hedgehog wheels actually reduce damage to the course?
		
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As I understand it, the STRI has no such evidence and certainly many greenkeepers say the compacted holes cause more problems than they solve. The only case I have seen justified is on wet hilly courses, where they reduce the skidding when going downhill and assist when going up hill.

Generally (when it is not sloppy or mushy), trolleys cause no more wear than walking but the problem is that trolleys tend to take the same (easier) route all the time (particularly around the green and green to tee).


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## JamPal (Jan 25, 2016)

Trolley ban!

We dream of a Trolley ban! Our course has been shut for about 6 weeks solid!


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## Fish (Jan 25, 2016)

rulefan said:



			As I understand it, the STRI has no such evidence and certainly many greenkeepers say the compacted holes cause more problems than they solve. The only case I have seen justified is on wet hilly courses, where they reduce the skidding when going downhill and assist when going up hill.

Generally (when it is not sloppy or mushy), trolleys cause no more wear than walking but the problem is that trolleys tend to take the same (easier) route all the time (particularly around the green and green to tee).
		
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If the course was sloppy or mushy trolleys should be banned whether they had winter wheels on or not or the course possibly closed anyway!


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## ADB (Jan 25, 2016)

JamPal said:



			Trolley ban!

We dream of a Trolley ban! Our course has been shut for about 6 weeks solid!
		
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Open today though! Bet its boggy though....


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## JamPal (Jan 25, 2016)

ADB said:



			Open today though! Bet its boggy though....
		
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i played 9 there Thursday afternoon, it was frozen underfoot so actually didn't play too badly. Anything in the rough was long gone though. Plugged and lost forever. 

I wouldn't play there today, it'll be pointless. Next year we are taking winter membership at Brighton and Hove, then maybe do Summer at Singing Hills. Or just bin it off completely and go back to green fees.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 25, 2016)

rulefan said:



			Generally (when it is not sloppy or mushy), trolleys cause no more wear than walking but the problem is that trolleys tend to take the same (easier) route all the time (particularly around the green and green to tee).
		
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We've roped off a lot of areas to force golfers further away from the edges of greens. However these areas are taking a pounding and so is the area walking off the greens back to where the trolly or bag is left so it's not really doing what it was intended to or they haven't really thought it through completely. It's a good idea, just not implemented well


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