# All bunkers GUR ?



## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

Can competitions be qualifying when all bunkers are deemed GUR, or when preferred lies in bunkers are allowed ?


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## rosecott (Apr 12, 2021)

Either is acceptable.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Either is acceptable.
		
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 Jim is county approval required  [ Scotland ], or just up to the club ?


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## rulefan (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Can competitions be qualifying when all bunkers are deemed GUR, or when preferred lies in bunkers are allowed ?
		
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Do you mean during these Covid times? Or normally?


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Do you mean during these Covid times? Or normally?
		
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Under Coved rules.


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## rosecott (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Jim is county approval required  [ Scotland ], or just up to the club ?
		
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Up to the club while special covid rules still apply.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2021)

Why would the club make all bunkers GUR?
And preferred lies in bunkers?


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## rosecott (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Why would the club make all bunkers GUR?
And preferred lies in bunkers?



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From CONGU special rules with rakes removed:

*Bunkers: *If clubs introduce a Local Rule to allow preferred lies in bunkers, scores will be acceptable for competition or supplementary score purposes. (Using Model Local Rule E-3)

Please note: The distance for preferred lies in the bunker is limited to 6 inches and the area cannot be smoothed before placing.

As an alternative (but not combined with the preferred lies detailed above) if the condition of bunkers is so poor that it interferes with the proper playing of the game, a club Committee may declare all bunkers to be Ground Under Repair, scores will be acceptable for competition or supplementary score purposes. 



Note: These temporary provisions are applicable until further notice.


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2021)

The Kings did this when we got back to golf after the first lockdown. changed back to PL in them after a lot of really low scores.


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## rulefan (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Why would the club make all bunkers GUR?
And preferred lies in bunkers?



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Has your club not implemented this?


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Has your club not implemented this?
		
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I dont play any more so I've not joined anywhere.
And if you're getting preferred lies in bunkers, I don't think I'll bother


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I dont play any more so I've not joined anywhere.
And if you're getting preferred lies in bunkers, I don't think I'll bother
		
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That's a bit extreme, no?
You don't need to take them.


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## rulefan (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I dont play any more so I've not joined anywhere.
And if you're getting preferred lies in bunkers, I don't think I'll bother
		
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Didn't you ever complain when your ball was sitting in a large unraked footprint? 
There aren't any rakes now.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Didn't you ever complain when your ball was sitting in a large unraked footprint? 
There aren't any rakes now.
		
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I don't get a preferred lie out of a divot in the middle of a fairway so why should I get one in a hazard?
Anyway, rakes will be reinstated by the time I play next so no problem


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I don't get a preferred lie out of a divot in the middle of a fairway so why should I get one in a hazard?
Anyway, rakes will be reinstated by the time I play next so no problem
		
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Could be a long wait.


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I dont play any more so I've not joined anywhere.
And if you're getting preferred lies in bunkers, I don't think I'll bother
		
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 " I do not play any more"

means you have not seen the state of bunkers come Monday mornings.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

It intrigues me that a round can be acceptable for handicap with all bunkers GUR. Preferred lies in bunkers, fair enough at this time. But GUR? Completely changes the game, can take much more aggressive lines without worrying if ball ends up in a bunker. Not to mention the fact that, on average, players probably end up in a few bunkers per round, and some players are horrific out of bunkers no matter the lie. So, for them, it is also a huge advantage.

I guess if the bunkers are GUR for a long period, then a some may find they get bigger cuts in handicap over time. They'll be in for a shock when we get back to normal.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

I think placing all bunkers GUR in most cases is a bit extreme but having a stroll around Royal North Devon I can see the problem as the sheep seem to take a liking to spending their evenings in the things and its more that a foot print that you have to worry about.


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## rulefan (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It intrigues me that a round can be acceptable for handicap with all bunkers GUR. Preferred lies in bunkers, fair enough at this time. But GUR? Completely changes the game, can take much more aggressive lines without worrying if ball ends up in a bunker. Not to mention the fact that, on average, players probably end up in a few bunkers per round, and some players are horrific out of bunkers no matter the lie. So, for them, it is also a huge advantage.

I guess if the bunkers are GUR for a long period, then a some may find they get bigger cuts in handicap over time. They'll be in for a shock when we get back to normal.
		
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I suspect it may have less impact under WHS than CONGU


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I suspect it may have less impact under WHS than CONGU
		
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I assume having bunkers under GUR is only relevant during Covid? What about when Covid passes? I seem to remember discussions here that a round could not be qualifying (in the old days) if 50% or more of bunkers were out of action. However, I'm not sure where that advice was, perhaps an England Golf instruction.

However, what about WHS. If a club decided to make all bunkers GUR after Covid, would the round be acceptable for handicap? WHS only talks about number of temporary greens and course length changes.


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It intrigues me that a round can be acceptable for handicap with all bunkers GUR. Preferred lies in bunkers, fair enough at this time. But GUR? Completely changes the game, can take much more aggressive lines without worrying if ball ends up in a bunker. Not to mention the fact that, on average, players probably end up in a few bunkers per round, and some players are horrific out of bunkers no matter the lie. So, for them, it is also a huge advantage.

I guess if the bunkers are GUR for a long period, then a some may find they get bigger cuts in handicap over time. They'll be in for a shock when we get back to normal.
		
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 I bet there is still a lot that get the jitters if they have a bunker to go over even if it not in play.


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## rosecott (Apr 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I bet there is still a lot that get the jitters if they have a bunker to go over even if it not in play.
		
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And I wonder how many magically find the NPR to the side of the bunker. We have had players who insisted that if you take relief from GUR, any strokes played back into it don't count.


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume having bunkers under GUR is only relevant during Covid? What about when Covid passes? I seem to remember discussions here that a round could not be qualifying (in the old days) if 50% or more of bunkers were out of action. However, I'm not sure where that advice was, perhaps an England Golf instruction.

However, what about WHS. If a club decided to make all bunkers GUR after Covid, would the round be acceptable for handicap? WHS only talks about number of temporary greens and course length changes.
		
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As you already appear to know  neither the rules or guidance on the rules has anything in it to follow.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			As you already appear to know  neither the rules or guidance on the rules has anything in it to follow.
		
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?


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			?
		
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 'To follow' is probably the wrong wording. There is no guideline seemed a bit too many guidelines.

I wonder when we get back to non covid bunker rules if it will be added to the guidelines.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			'To follow' is probably the wrong wording. There is no guideline seemed a bit too many guidelines.

I wonder when we get back to non covid bunker rules if it will be added to the guidelines.
		
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Apologies, I misinterpreted your response, thought you were having a dig at me, and I had missed something in the guidance. I think a comma after the word "know" in your response would have made all the difference


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Apologies, I misinterpreted your response, thought you were having a dig at me, and I had missed something in the guidance. I think a comma after the word "know" in your response would have made all the difference 

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No need to apologise, it's his own fault for being stingey with his commas. 
And they say punctuation isn't important


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## D-S (Apr 15, 2021)

We have 50 greenside and 25 fairway bunkers, so the course is well bunkered but not ridiculously so. If, for some reason, we decided to remove them all that would surely require a re rating as it would definitely mean that the CR and the slope would be reduced.
This is in effect what courses have done by making all bunkers GUR.
Do we have any raters on here who could guesstimate the likely effect? I would ask a member who is one of the County raters to try it as a paper exercise, but as we all have to carry individual rakes it is of no relevance to our course.


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			We have 50 greenside and 25 fairway bunkers, so the course is well bunkered but not ridiculously so. If, for some reason, we decided to remove them all that would surely require a re rating as it would definitely mean that the CR and the slope would be reduced.
This is in effect what courses have done by making all bunkers GUR.
Do we have any raters on here who could guesstimate the likely effect? I would ask a member who is one of the County raters to try it as a paper exercise, but as we all have to carry individual rakes it is of no relevance to our course.
		
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The current bunkers rule is considered temporary not permanent so it does not require a rerating.

If all the bunkers were removed that would be permanent and would therefore require a rerate.

Rules of Handicapping Appendix G


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## D-S (Apr 15, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The current bunkers rule is considered temporary not permanent so it does not require a rerating.

If all the bunkers were removed that would be permanent and would therefore require a rerate.

Rules of Handicapping Appendix G
		
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We have to get a re rating if we make temporary changes to the course due to winter works though. I know this is often done  as a paper exercise.


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			We have to get a re rating if we make temporary changes to the course due to winter works though. I know this is often done  as a paper exercise.
		
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 I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.
		
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If the changes are dramatic (eg making a number of bunkers GUR for the whole winter) then the county/EG can make adjustments to the rating calculation by altering the figures related to the physical conditions (bunkers in this case)


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## D-S (Apr 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.
		
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We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.
		
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Can you imagine the amount of time and effort that it would have taken to modify the ratings of 12000 sets of tees?


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.
		
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Who is this CONGU you mention


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## jim8flog (Apr 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.
		
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 My understanding of how the rating works is that the Course Rating is for a scratch golfer who would not be expected to go into bunkers and is only affected by bunkers which 'ensure' an enforced lay up. So taking all bunkers out of play would not affect course rating that much.

What might be affected is slope rating which is based upon a bogey golfer.

The club could therefore could not do the rerate for themselves and the raters will probably still have enough work to do with all the courses yet to be rated in the first place.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			My understanding of how the rating works is that the Course Rating is for a scratch golfer who would not be expected to go into bunkers and is only affected by bunkers which 'ensure' an enforced lay up. So taking all bunkers out of play would not affect course rating that much.

What might be affected is slope rating which is based upon a bogey golfer.

The club could therefore could not do the rerate for themselves and the raters will probably still have enough work to do with all the courses yet to be rated in the first place.
		
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Not quite. Both Scratch and Bogey rating considers bunkers that are within 20 yards of the landing zone (which could be 40 yards long), not necessarily on the the fairway. Greenside bunkers are in play for all players.

In theory it could be a paperwork exercise where all bunker points were set to zero and the numbers crunched again but even so ........


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## D-S (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Can you imagine the amount of time and effort that it would have taken to modify the ratings of 12000 sets of tees?
		
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It’s only a minority of clubs that have made all bunkers GUR, the vast majority have gone to preferred lies in bunkers. Seems strange to have to do  the temporary ratings for some minor winter tee changes but you can take every bunker out and the relative difficulty of the course remains the same.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			It’s only a minority of clubs that have made all bunkers GUR, the vast majority have gone to preferred lies in bunkers. Seems strange to have to do  the temporary ratings for some minor winter tee changes but you can take every bunker out and the relative difficulty of the course remains the same.
		
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winter tee changes only affect the length of the course and the adjustment is very straightforward. Making all bunkers GUR is quite a different proposition. Each individual bunker will have its own difficulty factor (two factors if they are greenside). So without reference to all the recorded details making an adjustment would be impossible. EG has taken a pragmatic approach.


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## rosecott (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Who is this CONGU you mention 

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He is alive and well.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Who is this CONGU you mention 

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Still the boss


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Still the boss
		
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Jobs for the boys & girls.


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