# Afghanistan



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58184202

Looks like the Taliban are about to take control of Kandahar very soon as well 

How long before it’s Kabul and the Taliban have control over the whole country 

As soon as the troops moved out they moved back in 

20 years troops were out there for and it looks like it’s going to be all those lives lost for nothing


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## Robster59 (Aug 12, 2021)

I agree.  Before they pulled out they should have tried to engage the Taliban. So many soldiers killed and permanently maimed.  And I see the images of the people who are trapped there, awaiting the Taliban to arrive with and God knows what will happen to them.  I seriously fear for what will happen to the people who live in that country as it's all just going to go to hell in a handcart.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2021)

What is the alternative?   Wasn't it a matter of keeping coalition forces there permanently or this happening.   The Russians tried it we've tried it but it looks like there's no way to keep the Taliban out.   As unpalatable as it is we should stay out  and with the great power of hind sight we should never have gone there.


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## KenL (Aug 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What is the alternative?   Wasn't it a matter of keeping coalition forces there permanently or this happening.   The Russians tried it we've tried it but it looks like there's no way to keep the Taliban out.   As unpalatable as it is we should stay out  and with the great power of hind sight we should never have gone there.
		
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We had hindsight, the Russians.


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## Kellfire (Aug 13, 2021)

An awful situation that shows what can happen when you pitch the evils of fundamentalist religion against an unwanted war machine who think they’re the moral bastions of the world. I can’t see anyway this ends well for the innocent civilians in the country.


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## stefanovic (Aug 13, 2021)

To think I used to go for holidays there.
Well, I did spend 2 weeks in Afghanistan on the hippy trail in 1973.
The sight of Herat was quite a culture shock after Iran.
Moving on to Kandahar was a better experience, then Kabul.
Afghans were quiet and reserved, and I liked them, but also a country of feuding clans.
I climbed that hill with masts in Kabul where today news reporters stand in front of.
The best bit was the Khyber Pass.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 13, 2021)

We think we heard some troops heading out this morning 

Just got back from 4 nights at elvedon center parcs which had a few planes most of week but this morning jezz from 06:30 onwards was constant

Worrying times


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## BiMGuy (Aug 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			We think we heard some troops heading out this morning

Just got back from 4 nights at elvedon center parcs which had a few planes most of week but this morning jezz from 06:30 onwards was constant

Worrying times
		
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There has been a marked increase in C-130s going over us in the last few days. 

Word is they are flying troops out for extract missions.


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## JamesR (Aug 13, 2021)

*"never get involved in a land war in Asia"* - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line" 

The great Vizzini's advice springs to mind


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## IanM (Aug 13, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I agree.  Before they pulled out they should have tried to engage the Taliban.
		
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In discussions you mean, or battle?  I don't think the Taliban have a diplomatic corps or a complaints department. 

Classic dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2021)

Interesting to see the hawkish John Bolton on Sky News saying that US occupation was not about nation building - that it Afghanistan's own problem - but about protecting US interests. Ironically, it was US and UK interference in the region in the post-war years that emboldened the Mujahideen, later Taliban, due to their greater concern about Communism and lesser concern about jihadists.


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## Robster59 (Aug 13, 2021)

IanM said:



			In discussions you mean, or battle?  I don't think the Taliban have a diplomatic corps or a complaints department.

Classic dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.
		
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I know, that's why I say "tried".  I meant in discussions as battling has not worked and trying to get somebody across the table to talk.  I know the Taliban are not known for their diplomacy skills, but everyone knew this would happen and just pulling out has put us back at square one.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 13, 2021)

The country is in a real state. Not sure now if China will try and throw their weight around. They are very tied in with neighbour Pakistan (through a massive belt and road infrastructure plan), and they could help to facilitate China chucking a fortune into the country. And, China would love to capitalise on a US retreat


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## Rlburnside (Aug 13, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I agree.  Before they pulled out they should have tried to engage the Taliban. So many soldiers killed and permanently maimed.  And I see the images of the people who are trapped there, awaiting the Taliban to arrive with and God knows what will happen to them.  I seriously fear for what will happen to the people who live in that country as it's all just going to go to hell in a handcart.
		
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They did have talks with the Taliban part of the agreement to pull out was for the Taliban not to let Isis into the country. 

Seems that everyone one vastly underestimated the Taliban terrible situation especially for girls and women


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I know, that's why I say "tried".  I meant in discussions as battling has not worked and trying to get somebody across the table to talk.  I know the Taliban are not known for their diplomacy skills, but everyone knew this would happen and just pulling out has put us back at square one.
		
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The Americans and Taliban have been in talks for a while.


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## Old Skier (Aug 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			There has been a marked increase in C-130s going over us in the last few days.

Word is they are flying troops out for extract missions.
		
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If they were c130 they weren’t going a long way east. Globemaster 111 are the new taxi of choice. There have been a lot of Hercs on jolly’s around the SW.


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## Old Skier (Aug 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The Americans and Taliban have been in talks for a while.
		
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A major stumbling block is the Taliban are not a cohesive unit often swapping sides and fighting each other. The talks are amongst rival warlords not, in general, people who want or have the ability to unite a country.


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## Dando (Aug 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			A major stumbling block is the Taliban are not a cohesive unit often swapping sides and fighting each other. The talks are amongst rival warlords not, in general, people who want or have the ability to unite a country.
		
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There’s more chance of us lot agreeing on pace of play or what colour and length of socks are ok than the taliban uniting


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## chrisd (Aug 13, 2021)

Dando said:



			There’s more chance of us lot agreeing on pace of play or what colour and length of socks are ok than the taliban uniting
		
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White socks covering the ankle! 

The Taliban just need to look on here to see how easy it is 😁


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			A major stumbling block is the Taliban are not a cohesive unit often swapping sides and fighting each other. The talks are amongst rival warlords not, in general, people who want or have the ability to unite a country.
		
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I agree. My post was to point out there have been talks between the USA and Taliban for a while, I make no comment on whether or not they are productive.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2021)

Sounds an absolute nightmare, hope all the foreign nationals get out safely.


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## Kellfire (Aug 15, 2021)

We definitely needed another thread entitled Afghanistan on the first page of threads.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 15, 2021)

I read a book years ago called ghost force, it’s by an ex SAS soldier and his exploits around the world. It finishes with his last escapade in Afghan. He states “ let’s hope that the Taliban government is better than the Russian instilled Government “ he helped to get rid of.  He states “ only time will tell”.
That was 20 odd years ago. It was an excellent read that gave the British governments interests into why the SAS ended up being involved in conflicts around the world.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Well looks like that’s it then - Taliban have pretty taken back control of the country 

Blimey to think it wasn’t that long ago I was in both Kandahar and at Bagram Airport - both now being run by Taliban


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Well looks like that’s it then - Taliban have pretty taken back control of the country

Blimey to think it wasn’t that long ago I was in both Kandahar and at Bagram Airport - both now being run by Taliban
		
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Still can't get it round my head how 1000's of trained troops with billions of pounds of kit just rolled over.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Still can't get it round my head how 1000's of trained troops with billions of pounds of kit just rolled over.
		
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Because at the end of the day they are still Afghans and they don’t have the key item - air support - many Afghans “volunteered” for the Army to give themselves a job and regular pay. As soon as they no longer had the support of the foreign forces then the Taliban were going to re take control - the shock is how quickly and easily it’s happening


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because at the end of the day they are still Afghans and they don’t have the key item - air support - many Afghans “volunteered” for the Army to give themselves a job and regular pay. As soon as they no longer had the support of the foreign forces then the Taliban were going to re take control - the shock is how quickly and easily it’s happening
		
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I can see why your saying that but I don't see the Taliban with any air support.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I can see why your saying that but I don't see the Taliban with any air support.
		
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The air support kept them at bay - the Taliban have been fighting on that terrain for hundreds of years , air supremacy kept them a lot more pinned in , now without that they can just overpower and it seems that towns aren’t falling without too much force being used tbh. The country won’t change - and people need to stop trying too


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## louise_a (Aug 15, 2021)

It seems to me that this was the likely outcome of pulling out,  it had  happened before


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The air support kept them at bay - the Taliban have been fighting on that terrain for hundreds of years , air supremacy kept them a lot more pinned in , now without that they can just overpower and it seems that towns aren’t falling without too much force being used tbh. The country won’t change - and people need to stop trying too
		
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I see your point but air support can create some horrendous civilian and structural deviation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I see your point but air support can create some horrendous civilian and structural deviation.
		
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Eh 🤷‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh 🤷‍♂️
		
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What I said.  These battles tend to be in cities, you must have seen the deviation created in Syria etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What I said.  These battles tend to be in cities, you must have seen the deviation created in Syria etc.
		
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I’m not sure what it has to do with the point I made 🤷‍♂️ - Syria and the air strikes there are hugely different to way the air space has been used in Afghanistan-


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## JamesR (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What I said.  These battles tend to be in cities, you must have seen the deviation created in Syria etc.
		
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Do you mean devastation rather than deviation?
That would make more sense to me


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Do you mean devastation rather than deviation?
That would make more sense to me
		
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Yes, it was a typo/autocorrect.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not sure what it has to do with the point I made 🤷‍♂️ - Syria and the air strikes there are hugely different to way the air space has been used in Afghanistan-
		
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I meant devastation, my auto correct altered it.  My point is that if you use air support to troops on the ground fighting in cities then you will get the inevitable civilian casualties and property damage.  Maybe you can explain how you can support the Afghan army with airpower in built up areas without the associated destruction.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I meant devastation, my auto correct altered it.  My point is that if you use air support to troops on the ground fighting in cities then you will get the inevitable civilian casualties and property damage.  May be you can explain how you can support the Afghan army with airpower in built up areas without the associated destruction.
		
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The best aircraft in Afghan was a helicopter- the Apache , the air power wasn’t about support troops in cities - it was about pinning them down in the mountains and keeping the out of the cities. The terrain meant it wasn’t just about dropping bombs onto fighters 

It was hugely different to the bombing of Syrian Towns by jets -. The Apache was the machine on Afghan , it was huge and it scared the Taliban massively. The impact of that helo was huge. Nearly 90,000 flying hours.


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I meant devastation, my auto correct altered it.  My point is that if you use air support to troops on the ground fighting in cities then you will get the inevitable civilian casualties and property damage.  Maybe you can explain how you can support the Afghan army with airpower in built up areas without the associated destruction.
		
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Precision weapon systems are now so accurate that in most cases (not all) civilian casualties are rare due to the procedures that British forces try to adhere too whether it’s AC, Helo or Predator drones.

Syria attacks were for pure effect using barrel and non precision weapons.


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2021)

Allies spend 20 years there and girls can finally get an education and now they are thrust back to medieval times. We've not experienced casualties for 3 years and Biden/USA decides to pull out.

Absolute stupidity and a waste of military lives.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426621862314921991
a thread worth reading - the thoughts and views of some people who put their life on the line for the country and some losing limbs there


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426621862314921991
a thread worth reading - the thoughts and views of some people who put their life on the line for the country and some losing limbs there
		
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Im sure that the same sentiment is aired after every conflict man has been involved in.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 15, 2021)

My take is that as soon as the US announced they were out, the UK had to follow as our presence there became untenable,

This was always going to happen, ie let the afghans sort out their future themselves, 

My only hope is that the Taliban leaders have learnt that a strict agenda will not work with the educated city based citizens who have had these freedoms for the last 20 years, they need to let women have a greater role, stopping education at 12 and then marrying girls off will not go down well with the international community 

But it is how it has been done there for many hundreds of years.

There is a huge gap between the city dwellers and the country folk and I fear that it is a circle that will not be squared without more bloodshed


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Sounds an absolute nightmare, hope all the foreign nationals get out safely.
		
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Why have you introduced another thread on this topic?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426621862314921991
a thread worth reading - the thoughts and views of some people who put their life on the line for the country and some losing limbs there
		
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I don't think the answer is more Brits being blown up.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why have you introduced another thread on this topic?
		
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Because I didn't know there was one 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think the answer is more Brits being blown up.
		
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I don’t think anyone suggested that was the answer 🙄


PhilTheFragger said:



			My take is that as soon as the US announced they were out, the UK had to follow as our presence there became untenable,

This was always going to happen, ie let the afghans sort out their future themselves,

My only hope is that the Taliban leaders have learnt that a strict agenda will not work with the educated city based citizens who have had these freedoms for the last 20 years, they need to let women have a greater role, stopping education at 12 and then marrying girls off will not go down well with the international community

But it is how it has been done there for many hundreds of years.

There is a huge gap between the city dwellers and the country folk and I fear that it is a circle that will not be squared without more bloodshed
		
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Unfortunately going by the videos being released the bloodshed is increasing- people being dragged out of their homes and executed - anything good that’s been done over the last 20 years will be undone over the next 20 days - and they know the international community won’t be able to do anything without the use of force again , and I don’t see that happening once again. The Afghan government has collapsed and the President has fled - The Taliban rule the country again

Unfortunately I think the only thing that would have stopped this was keeping a presence in the country and keeping the two air bases open


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 15, 2021)

Threads Merged


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## Tashyboy (Aug 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			The country is in a real state. Not sure now if China will try and throw their weight around. They are very tied in with neighbour Pakistan (through a massive belt and road infrastructure plan), and they could help to facilitate China chucking a fortune into the country. And, China would love to capitalise on a US retreat
		
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I read a good piece the other day re China, which actually has a border with Afghanistan.They have no interest whatsoever in throwing money into the country they see it as a political and financial banana skin. They unlike the Russians, USA and the UK have learned from previous forays into the country.


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## 4LEX (Aug 15, 2021)

My take on it.....

Terrible decision to send troops in there, ditto Iraq. Blair has a lot of blood on his hands, both UK and innnocent civilians. You can't airbomb democracy into these countries, you're best off increasing spending into intelligence and use that to protect ourselves. The amount of money wasted in both wars is beyond contempt. The lack of funding into intelligence has caused more terrorism deaths in this country than anything. Before 9/11 what was the total apart from the IRA? After? The numbers say it all. In the meantime we've spent billions on a war that wasn't needed.

The UK and the US should step up to provide for those fleeing and provide a permanent home for many.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			My take on it.....

Terrible decision to send troops in there, ditto Iraq. Blair has a lot of blood on his hands, both UK and innnocent civilians. You can't airbomb democracy into these countries, you're best off increasing spending into intelligence and use that to protect ourselves. The amount of money wasted in both wars is beyond contempt. The lack of funding into intelligence has caused more terrorism deaths in this country than anything. Before 9/11 what was the total apart from the IRA? After? The numbers say it all. In the meantime we've spent billions on a war that wasn't needed.

*The UK and the US should step up to provide for those fleeing and provide a permanent home for many.*

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unfortunately I have a feeling the exact opposite will happen, esp now. how would the poor sods get here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			My take on it.....

Terrible decision to send troops in there, ditto Iraq. Blair has a lot of blood on his hands, both UK and innnocent civilians. You can't airbomb democracy into these countries, you're best off increasing spending into intelligence and use that to protect ourselves. The amount of money wasted in both wars is beyond contempt. The lack of funding into intelligence has caused more terrorism deaths in this country than anything. Before 9/11 what was the total apart from the IRA? After? The numbers say it all. In the meantime we've spent billions on a war that wasn't needed.

The UK and the US should step up to provide for those fleeing and provide a permanent home for many.
		
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I don’t think it’s always as black and white as that 

Afghanistan stabilised for a long time , it was growing as a country , people were starting to live normal life’s , Kabul was starting to thrive as well as the other cities. 

That all changed when the US pulled out - the country isnt strong enough yet to stand on its own and that’s why the Taliban swept through the country


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## BiMGuy (Aug 15, 2021)

Afghans would have been much better off  if we'd have spent billions of dollars on things like infrastructure and education rather than going to war.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 15, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I read a good piece the other day re China, which actually has a border with Afghanistan.They have no interest whatsoever in throwing money into the country they see it as a political and financial banana skin. They unlike the Russians, USA and the UK have learned from previous forays into the country.
		
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the difference between Russia and the west is that China have no care about politics etc - they just want to domimate economically and they will be happy to do that by stealtth gradually


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## tugglesf239 (Aug 15, 2021)

Have to wonder about the training skills of the UK / US army’s training skills. 

Left a bunch of gash hands behind after 20 years of PJT’s for the Afghan “forces”

All joking aside though. Anyone harping on about the Taliban gaining ascendancy due to western forces, specifically us. You are Kidding yourselves. We delayed the power vacuum. It was always on the cards because that’s how the populace is wired. Have been for 1000’s of years. 

If there was any ‘will’ by the people and  the Afghan army then no way would the Taliban have steam rolled the place as quickly as they have. 

Where there is no will, there is a way.


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## tugglesf239 (Aug 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Afghans would have been much better off  if we'd have spent billions of dollars on things like infrastructure and education rather than going to war.
		
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They did?


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## tugglesf239 (Aug 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426621862314921991
a thread worth reading - the thoughts and views of some people who put their life on the line for the country and some losing limbs there
		
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Total attention seeker. Stuff happens. He knew the drill 

Phil you know this. You know the type


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 16, 2021)

Charlie Wilson’s War.......


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## harpo_72 (Aug 16, 2021)

Kind of wondered what would be the status if we did nothing and just let the Taliban rule for that 20yrs … 
Then the wife said we gave the women a chance to be educated and they have had something they never had. Which is true, but in doing so have we made them into victims or will they rise and fight ? 
Our military forces were put in a horrific position, how can you fight someone who wears no uniform and doesn’t respect the rules of engagement… it definitely isn’t by trying to take moral high ground. 
My view is they have broken cover and now it’s time to either be decisive or walk away and restrict access to us


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2021)

There’ll be so many mixed emotions. Was worth it/we gave it go/yesterday’s news.

But what now for the Afghans that gave it a go? Who will support them? Who will speak for them when an Afghan grasses them up over nothing? What happens to all the female teachers/nurses and so on and so on? What about all the female kids that looked like they might be the next scientist who finds the next Covid vaccine.

Those that say stuff ‘em, shame on you. Those that denigrate the sacrifices made by so many, shame on you.


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## stefanovic (Aug 16, 2021)

This latest British failure following on from 3 previous Afghan failures (100 - 200 years ago) is proof that trying to intervene in even a poor country like this does not work.
In my brief experience of Afghanistan I can say that this place while being at a crossroads in Asia is still insular yet strangely powerful. Afghans know the terrain. They are a clan of clans. They have driven out the Russians and now us and the Americans.
Yet I hear we'll be back in 2 years. 
To fail again, no doubt.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 16, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			Total attention seeker. Stuff happens. He knew the drill

Phil you know this. You know the type
		
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I don’t think that was the message they were trying to convey

More about lots of people and money was invested in helping the country defend itself

Billions spent on equipment and 20 years of manpower to train them and give them an army to protect the country and to protect the democracy that they appeared to be moving towards 

It’s a shame that it appears all that money and time has been wasted when the first time they needed to be stood up they appeared to have failed , thousands of them have just dropped arms and ran including the government 

So I guess these guys feel that all that effort and lives lost appears a bit of a waste


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## spongebob59 (Aug 16, 2021)

Shocking to see bodies falling off American planes after they ve taken off 😱


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 16, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Shocking to see bodies falling off American planes after they ve taken off 😱
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427204278695997442
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963


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## Robster59 (Aug 16, 2021)

Heartbreaking images at the moment, that's for sure.  And that's just the people who have made it onto the airfield.  The Taliban are blocking the entrance.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 16, 2021)

I do wonder where they got all their ordnance from given the Afghan army were not fed and did not have ammunition… I know us leaving was a major issue but why were they not supplied? Or is that an indelicate question to ask? Have we just perpetuated a corrupt administration.. ? 
Can we draw parallels to Vietnam?


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2021)

Having started the job, the US and the UK should have seen it through to the finish. Withdrawing sends out a number of messages to the West’s enemies – 1) the West does not have the power of its convictions; 2) the West is weak, militarily and intellectually; 3) having burnt its fingers, the West is unlikely to intervene again.

The Russians and Chinese will take heart. Particularly the latter with Taiwan in its sights.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Having started the job, the US and the UK should have seen it through to the finish. Withdrawing sends out a number of messages to the West’s enemies – 1) the West does not have the power of its convictions; 2) the West is weak, militarily and intellectually; 3) having burnt its fingers, the West is unlikely to intervene again.

The Russians and Chinese will take heart. Particularly the latter with Taiwan in its sights.
		
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Would there ever be a right time to withdraw our troops?  Seems to me the country would always return to an extreme muslin culture when the opportunity arises so now is as good as any time.   I know this sounds harsh and uncaring but I believe it's often the way when a country is governed by a (religious or any form of) monoculture.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Would there ever be a right time to withdraw our troops?  Seems to me the country would always return to an extreme muslin culture when the opportunity arises so now is as good as any time.   I know this sounds harsh and uncaring but I believe it's often the way when a country is governed by a (religious or any form of) monoculture.
		
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Yes I do agree, When the allies smashed the ideology of Nazism, they smashed Germany and stood on the Rhine for forty yeas to make sure it didnt return. Nowadays there is no politician or general that says as General Curtis LeMay said in WW2, “If you kill enough of them they’ll stop fighting”.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I do agree, When the allies smashed the ideology of Nazism, they smashed Germany and stood on the Rhine for forty yeas to make sure it didnt return. Nowadays there is no politician or general that says as General Curtis LeMay said in WW2, “If you kill enough of them they’ll stop fighting”.
		
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There's a major difference between Germany and Afghanistan and that's it's religion.   It's possible to make changes to political junta's but I can't see there ever being a way to remove Muslim fundamentalism from the region, it's been entrenched and tribal driven for Milena.


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## Old Skier (Aug 16, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I do agree, When the allies smashed the ideology of Nazism, they smashed Germany and stood on the Rhine for forty yeas to make sure it didnt return. Nowadays there is no politician or general that says as General Curtis LeMay said in WW2, “If you kill enough of them they’ll stop fighting”.
		
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We were stood on the Wesser for something that could have been far greater than Nazism


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 16, 2021)

https://www.boredpanda.com/afghanis...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Afghanistan in the 60’s was far different country 

The Taliban are claiming they want the country to go back to those days , they want women to have equal right , people to be educate and have fair democratic government 

I suspect sanctions will be applied soon and then a humanitarian disaster to follow


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			We were stood on the Wesser for something that could have been far greater than Nazism
		
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Greater? Odd choice of words.


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## Old Skier (Aug 16, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Greater? Odd choice of words.
		
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Not from where I stood.


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## woofers (Aug 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.boredpanda.com/afghanis...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Afghanistan in the 60’s was far different country

The Taliban are claiming they want the country to go back to those days , they want women to have equal right , people to be educate and have fair democratic government

I suspect sanctions will be applied soon and then a humanitarian disaster to follow
		
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Interesting link.
I was wondering if we would treat Afghanistan differently if had a precious resource, as we do another country that is ruled by Sharia law, carries out public beheadings and floggings, has strict dress codes, bans alcohol, treats women as second class citizens, was linked to 9/11 and hunts down and murders it’s critics. But we seem to think that the way that country and its rulers operate as acceptable.


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## Kellfire (Aug 18, 2021)

woofers said:



			Interesting link.
I was wondering if we would treat Afghanistan differently if had a precious resource, as we do another country that is ruled by Sharia law, carries out public beheadings and floggings, has strict dress codes, bans alcohol, treats women as second class citizens, was linked to 9/11 and hunts down and murders it’s critics. But we seem to think that the way that country and its rulers operate as acceptable.
		
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Because we keep them under relative control by also supporting a nuclear power in that region who would love to wipe that particular Arab state off the face of the earth. Politics eh.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because we keep them under relative control by also supporting a nuclear power in that region who would love to wipe that particular Arab state off the face of the earth. Politics eh.
		
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Plus the reality is we don’t give a monkeys what they do to their own or other foreign nationals… we show our true colours 

On that note shall we move on and discuss house prices in the UK 🤭?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Plus the reality is we don’t give a monkeys what they do to their own or other foreign nationals… we show our true colours

On that note shall we move on and discuss house prices in the UK 🤭?
		
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Easy going  up


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Easy going  up
		
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Apparently so … despite the stamp duty thresholds changing. Mind you there will be another 20k immigrants coming to join us as well


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## BiMGuy (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Would there ever be a right time to withdraw our troops?  Seems to me the country would always return to an extreme muslin culture when the opportunity arises so now is as good as any time.   I know this sounds harsh and uncaring but I believe it's often the way when a country is governed by a (religious or any form of) monoculture.
		
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We would need to be there for 200* years to change the religious ideology of a country such as Afghanistan.


*Made up number as all I know is it would take generations.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We would need to be there for 200* years to change the religious ideology of a country such as Afghanistan.


*Made up number as all I know is it would take generations.
		
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Stupid as it may sound, the women are their future. Without women there will be a lot of men and that won’t create a new generation.. also not sure if shariah law actually is of any use to women either as my limited knowledge of it is it treats them like property


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## woofers (Aug 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We would need to be there for 200* years to change the religious ideology of a country such as Afghanistan.


*Made up number as all I know is it would take generations.
		
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Why would we want to change the religious ideology of any country? We haven’t in other middle eastern states.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

woofers said:



			Why would we want to change the religious ideology of any country? We haven’t in other middle eastern states.
		
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Looking a little deeper the ideology is fundamentally sound, where religion is weak is in it’s interpretation. So no need to change the ideology but to educate people to interpret the message. 
The question is have the Taliban, read and interpreted the teachings differently to their previous interpretations ? If they have then women will have choices freedoms and respect.. time will tell though.


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## IanM (Aug 18, 2021)

woofers said:



			Why would we want to change the religious ideology of any country? We haven’t in other middle eastern states.
		
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"Looney fringe ideology" I assume he meant, not the religion.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 18, 2021)

IanM said:



			"Looney fringe ideology" I assume he meant, not the religion.
		
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Yes.


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## Jensen (Aug 18, 2021)

Sadly I don’t think the Taliban have changed their interpretation. I think it’s all a PR exercise to appease the rest of the world. 
When things start to settle down, people will disappear and women will be treated like third class citizens. Why else, if true, have they gone door to door identifying those that helped the West. If all was forgiven, then why the need to identify them.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

Jensen said:



			Sadly I don’t think the Taliban have changed their interpretation. I think it’s all a PR exercise to appease the rest of the world.
When things start to settle down, people will disappear and women will be treated like third class citizens. Why else, if true, have they gone door to door identifying those that helped the West. If all was forgiven, then why the need to identify them.
		
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I think your right, but let’s wait till they get over confident and see how good the drones are.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

The Taliban isn't a single homogenous political force, it's a group of disparate tribal groups who will have different ideologies on the way Sharia law should be applied to people's lives.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 20, 2021)

Doesn't surpeise me we have more incompetance being uncovered. However, our Governments failings aside, how can we expect a country that is basically 5 clans work together for the collective good when we all saw how divided and polarised we were with a referendum that had only 2 sides?.
We should never have gone there in the first place.


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## Old Skier (Aug 20, 2021)

The stirring of the press and the shear band wagon jumpers are about. If any thinks that such a delicate matter would be discussed over an unsecured telephone line is either thick or just stirring for a reaction. Well you have one. The only question was "Why was he on holiday" .


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 20, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We need to keep politics out of this thread, tricky I know, but …….
		
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## JamesR (Aug 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The Taliban isn't a single homogenous political force, it's a group of disparate *tribal* groups who will have different ideologies on the way Sharia law should be applied to people's lives.
		
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Tribal sects seems to be the biggest issue with the whole of the Middle East.
You call somewhere a country, but that country is then split into tribes, each of which has a historic hatred of another.
and of course some tribes cross national boundaries.


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## ger147 (Aug 21, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Tribal sects seems to be the biggest issue with the whole of the Middle East.
You call somewhere a country, but that country is then split into tribes, each of which has a historic hatred of another.
and of course some tribes cross national boundaries.
		
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Sounds a bit like the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Sounds a bit like the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland...
		
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Your joking?


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## Fade and Die (Aug 21, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Sounds a bit like the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland...
		
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You think that GB is like Afghanistan?? Wow!


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## ger147 (Aug 21, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			You think that GB is like Afghanistan?? Wow!
		
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No, it was the reference to tribes👍🏻


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## ExRabbit (Aug 22, 2021)

ger147 said:



			No, it was the reference to tribes👍🏻
		
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Another wow - can't remember seeing raping and pillaging over here recently.

Maybe it's going to be as 'good' as this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-wasn-t-all-raping-and-pillaging-1643969.html

But somehow I doubt it.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2021)

ger147 said:



			No, it was the reference to tribes👍🏻
		
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You've really got to be joking!


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 22, 2021)

woofers said:



			Interesting link.
I was wondering if we would treat Afghanistan differently if had a precious resource, as we do another country that is ruled by Sharia law, carries out public beheadings and floggings, has strict dress codes, bans alcohol, treats women as second class citizens, was linked to 9/11 and hunts down and murders it’s critics. But we seem to think that the way that country and its rulers operate as acceptable.
		
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People would. But it’s not on the news or in the papers. 
Injustices and atrocities across the globe but people only care about what’s on trend.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			People would. But it’s not on the news or in the papers.
Injustices and atrocities across the globe but people only care about what’s on trend.
		
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What people in general care about across the globe is living their lives by the path of least resistance, what else do you suggest.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 24, 2021)

Sat outside Ely cathedral. It is very busy above my head with massive transport aircraft. Anything to do with afghanistan and Mildehall or not. Or is it the norm.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			Allies spend 20 years there and girls can finally get an education and now they are thrust back to medieval times. We've not experienced casualties for 3 years and Biden/USA decides to pull out.

Absolute stupidity and a waste of military lives.
		
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Taliban taking back control and going back to the old ways.
Not a great model to follow.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Sat outside Ely cathedral. It is very busy above my head with massive transport aircraft. Anything to do with afghanistan and Mildehall or not. Or is it the norm.
		
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Fairly normal round these parts. But there has been more activity recently.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 26, 2021)

Tragic events in Kabul. No idea what will happen now


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## Robster59 (Aug 26, 2021)

Now that US soldiers have been killed, it will be interesting to see how the US Government reacts.  
Pretty much everyone could see what was going to happen when the troops pulled out.  The way that it has been handled has been a shambles.  It's such a shame for all those who have experienced 20 years of freedom to go back to the old days of tyranny.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 26, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Tragic events in Kabul. No idea what will happen now
		
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It will go back to how it was before 2001 

Sharia Law ruling the country 
Women being treated like dirt 
Kids turned into child soldiers 
Women married off at the age of the 13
Terrorist groups made to feel welcome


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## harpo_72 (Aug 30, 2021)

Here is something controversial.. saw a picture of one of the marines killed, less than 23. But what caught my eye was the suppressor on the automatic rifle. 
Apparently they deployed them not to give away position in the field. 
Then you read reports of the casualties having bullet wounds in airport bombing.
Now I know the suppressor is not going to drown out everything but given the panic in the aftermath it’s highly likely you won’t hear these weapons going off. Add into the mix another military unit from another nation in the vicinity and you possibly have a “friendly fire” exchange with a shed load of collateral damage …


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It will go back to how it was before 2001

Sharia Law ruling the country
Women being treated like dirt
Kids turned into child soldiers
Women married off at the age of the 13
Terrorist groups made to feel welcome
		
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Sounds like par for the course.


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