# Robert the Bruce, Born in .........



## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

Essex. Oh my aching sides, over to you Doon. Wonder if he had an accent like Joey Essex.


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Reported.


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## Kellfire (Nov 3, 2018)

Step away from the keyboard.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Step away from the keyboard.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

So greatest Scotsman might be an Englishman 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....10/28/robert-bruce-essex-claims-new-book/amp/


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## Wolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Can just see him having his own version of Dagenham market in his castle grounds to stay close to his roots


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2018)

The Telegraph catching a few more desperate fools based on the fact that the Bruce family owned lands in Southern England [plus Carrick and Ireland].

Was it not so long ago they were also claiming that William Wallace might also have been Robin Hood. Mind you that might have been the Daily Fail who seem to have the same intellectual readership standard.


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## DCB (Nov 3, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Essex. Oh my aching sides, over to you Doon. Wonder if he had an accent like Joey Essex.
		
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We'll,  if Wallace was born in Australia, why couldn't The Bruce have been born in Essex ........   ðŸ˜‰


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Telegraph catching a few more desperate fools based on the fact that the Bruce family owned lands in Southern England [plus Carrick and Ireland].

Was it not so long ago they were also claiming that William Wallace might also have been Robin Hood. Mind you that might have been the Daily Fail who seem to have the same intellectual readership standard.
		
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Odd, the clip i read had nothing to do with the Telegraph and i believe the new claims come from someone based at a Scottish university.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

Plus robin hood is from edwinstowe in Notts. Ave seen his tree. ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰ðŸ‘ some say he is from Yorkshire. But seeing as ave never seen any pictures of him in a flat cap and walking a whippet. I think we can dispel the Yorkshire link. Not unless a scholar from the university of grimsby finds new evidence.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 3, 2018)

So does this mean the Southern Nationalist Party will rise up as well?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Telegraph catching a few more desperate fools based on the fact that the Bruce family owned lands in Southern England [plus Carrick and Ireland].

Was it not so long ago they were also claiming that William Wallace might also have been Robin Hood. Mind you that might have been the Daily Fail who seem to have the same intellectual readership standard.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Blimey itâ€™s almost hit a nerve , must be a right stab in the heart thinking the Bruce was English


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Seems these topics are fine but mention the Ibrox disaster in another topic and I get my post deleted, double standards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

RandG said:



			Seems these topics are fine but mention the Ibrox disaster in another topic and I get my post deleted, double standards. 

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What exactly is wrong with this thread ?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Blimey itâ€™s almost hit a nerve , must be a right stab in the heart thinking the Bruce was English
		
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Oh it gets worse (better actually ðŸ˜)

The good Dr writes...

Dr Watson said it was "highly likely" the 22-year-old Bruce was knighted by Edward, the king who was dubbed Hammer of the Scots.
*Bruce and his father even took part in the English invasion of Scotland* in 1296, at a time when the family had lost its lands north of the Border.

ðŸ˜¶ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‚


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly is wrong with this thread ?
		
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In isolation, nothing, when taken with the post I got deleted when I mention the Ibrox disaster, double standards IMO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

RandG said:



			In isolation, nothing, when taken with the post I got deleted when I mention the Ibrox disaster, double standards IMO.
		
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Someone posted a heartfelt thread about a football owner passing away and it being a sad time , in it he mentioned some of the other sad times in football to put across a sad point - you used the thread as a platform to try and score cheap points , it was in really poor taste and added nothing to the Thread.


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone posted a heartfelt thread about a football owner passing away and it being a sad time , in it he mentioned some of the other sad times in football to put across a sad point - you used the thread as a platform to try and score cheap points , it was in really poor taste and added nothing to the Thread.
		
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I "used" the thread ? 

I posted another footballing tragedy that seem to be purposely left out, possibly because it was Scottish, gets deleted, yet the very same member starts a topic today, clearly trying to get a reaction, and there s a difference ??


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone posted a heartfelt thread about a football owner passing away and it being a sad time , in it he mentioned some of the other sad times in football to put across a sad point - you used the thread as a platform to try and score cheap points , it was in really poor taste and added nothing to the Thread.
		
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Letâ€™s be honest tho Phil,youâ€™re loving this thread to score points with Doon ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Letâ€™s be honest tho Phil,youâ€™re loving this thread to score points with Doon ðŸ‘ðŸ»
		
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The very point I was making.


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## bluewolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Another thread turns to sh*te within the first page. Have none of you got anything better to do?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

RandG said:



			I "used" the thread ?

I posted another footballing tragedy that seem to be purposely left out, possibly because it was Scottish, gets deleted, yet the very same member starts a topic today, clearly trying to get a reaction, and there s a difference ??
		
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As I said you tried to score points using an event where people lost their lives - I have no doubt that Tashy didnâ€™t purposely leave anything out as the Ibrox disaster is prob something that doesnâ€™t immediately spring to his mind when talking about football disasters. 
This thread is nothing but light hearted based on something that appeared in the news recently - if you want to be offended by that then crack on but to try and find a connection to a recent thread about people sadly losing their lives is quite pathetic at the end of the day and ultimately says more about you than the OP , most people appear to ignore you as you seem to be a returned banned poster , Iâ€™ll join that list


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh it gets worse (better actually ðŸ˜)

The good Dr writes...

Dr Watson said it was "highly likely" the 22-year-old Bruce was knighted by Edward, the king who was dubbed Hammer of the Scots.
*Bruce and his father even took part in the English invasion of Scotland* in 1296, at a time when the family had lost its lands north of the Border.

ðŸ˜¶ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‚
		
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I wonder if they will do a prequel of Braveheart showing the rise of Bruce in the quaint English countryside ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said you tried to score points using an event where people lost their lives - I have no doubt that Tashy didnâ€™t purposely leave anything out as the Ibrox disaster is prob something that doesnâ€™t immediately spring to his mind when talking about football disasters.
This thread is nothing but light hearted based on something that appeared in the news recently - if you want to be offended by that then crack on but to try and find a connection to a recent thread about people sadly losing their lives is quite pathetic at the end of the day and ultimately says more about you than the OP , most people appear to ignore you as you seem to be a returned banned poster , Iâ€™ll join that list
		
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You do like the sound of your own type don't you , you say most appear to ignore me, that's quite a statement given there are thousands of members, have they all told you so ? As for a returned banned member, again, utter drivel.


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## User 99 (Nov 3, 2018)

Just checked, 21 thousand members, aye very good Philly


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said you tried to score points using an event where people lost their lives - I have no doubt that Tashy didnâ€™t purposely leave anything out as the Ibrox disaster is prob something that doesnâ€™t immediately spring to his mind when talking about football disasters.
This thread is nothing but light hearted based on something that appeared in the news recently - if you want to be offended by that then crack on but to try and find a connection to a recent thread about people sadly losing their lives is quite pathetic at the end of the day and ultimately says more about you than the OP , most people appear to ignore you as you seem to be a returned banned poster , Iâ€™ll join that list
		
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Well this is how Tashyboys day has gone. Spent 4 hours at ASDA today selling poppies with Missis Tash. We have had a fantastic time. Met loads of fantastic charitable people.  However whilst there a pal I have known since I was 12 walks by, bottom line he is on anti depressants. He was a tearful mess. So when me and Missis T finished at ASDA we went straight round to his and have had 3 plus hours with him. Listening, laughing and joking. Then I come back, and a light hearted post I managed to write before I went out has gone tits up. With suggestions that I may of left some football teams out another ( not so lighthearted )thread. Some times I just have to shake my head.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 3, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Well this is how Tashyboys day has gone. Spent 4 hours at ASDA today selling poppies with Missis Tash. We have had a fantastic time. Met loads of fantastic charitable people.  However whilst there a pal I have known since I was 12 walks by, bottom line he is on anti depressants. He was a tearful mess. So when me and Missis T finished at ASDA we went straight round to his and have had 3 plus hours with him. Listening, laughing and joking. Then I come back, and a light hearted post I managed to write before I went out has gone tits up. With suggestions that I may of left some football teams out another ( not so lighthearted )thread. Some times I just have to shake my head.
		
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Forget it pal. You should know the way this forum can go sometimes. As for the rest, a big thumbs up!!!!


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Forget it pal. You should know the way this forum can go sometimes. As for the rest, a big thumbs up!!!!

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Gotta be honest Homer, I don't need an excuse to waffle, but some of the stories I have heard today were heartwarming. Some of the people's generosity is just unbelievable. Had a couple of snogs as well. ðŸ˜‰


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 3, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Gotta be honest Homer, I don't need an excuse to waffle, but some of the stories I have heard today were heartwarming. Some of the people's generosity is just unbelievable. Had a couple of snogs as well. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Top man. Just listening will have made someones day being able to tell their tale


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Letâ€™s be honest tho Phil,youâ€™re loving this thread to score points with Doon ðŸ‘ðŸ»
		
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Hardly scoring points, it's all a tad sad and desperate really.

Telling me something I learned in school 60 years ago.
I don't suppose Scottish history is high on the agenda in many English schools


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## Captainron (Nov 4, 2018)

Who gives a stuff where he cane from. Itâ€™s what he actually did that matters.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 4, 2018)

Come on guys, a bit of a light hearted post, gone badly west.

Letâ€™s keep a sense of humour, give and take a bit of banter and not take some of this stuff too seriously.

Pretty please ðŸ‘


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## patricks148 (Nov 4, 2018)

Captainron said:



			Who gives a stuff where he cane from. Itâ€™s what he actually did that matters.
		
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lets face it the only accent he had, like every noble in England And Scotland was a French one. all the nobles spoke French.... the Family Name is De Bruce after all. its not new that he was Knighted my Edward iii. Again  so is them having extensive lands in England, i think the family chapel was even in Northern England. Not the first historical figure have the past and their motives glossed over... for any one that is interested just look up ElCid and Spain.

different times with different motives


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So does this mean the Southern Nationalist Party will rise up as well?
		
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Keep up, they already have under the Leavers banner.


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## User62651 (Nov 4, 2018)

The author's agent is probably laughing, put out some 'controversial' theory and media picks it up, bound to lead to a few more book sales and tv appearances for Â£Â£Â£.

Whilst I don't idolise anyone (we all eat, sleep and go to the dunny), the spider in the cave metaphor is a lasting one though.............keep trying when going get tough.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2018)

Timed for the new Outlaw King film opening as well....hmmmmm.
The film is set in his early years with his unsuccessful landing from Ireland at Loch Ryan and following guerilla war against English troops.
Sounds quite good, set in my area of Carrick but probably filmed in Latvia or Ireland.


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sounds quite good, set in my area of Carrick but probably filmed in Latvia or Ireland. 

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Or Romford ?


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## Jacko_G (Nov 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Timed for the new Outlaw King film opening as well....hmmmmm.
The film is set in his early years with his unsuccessful landing from Ireland at Loch Ryan and following guerilla war against English troops.
Sounds quite good, set in my area of Carrick but probably filmed in Latvia or Ireland. 

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Think it was 99% filmed in Scotland at various locations. With part of it filmed at Berwick Upon Tweed and the Northumberland border area.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2018)

You mean 'what is now' England. The Bruces (de Brus) were Norman - and throughout the 12th and 13th centuries Scots nobility owned land far and wide across England.  Not surprising at all if Robert I was born in what is now England - William Wallace spoke Welsh after all. Indeed the Bruces were on the 'English' side for most of the 13th century being opposed to the Baliols.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 4, 2018)

Think Steve Bruce was on the English side as well last decade. Good centre half he was. Had a bent nose.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2018)

Whilst we are in the changing history mode.

According to last nights TV the archers at Agincourt were not English. They were British.
Another myth bust.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Whilst we are in the changing history mode.

According to last nights TV the archers at Agincourt were not English. They were British.
Another myth bust.
		
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1000 arrows a second unleashed by the English/Welsh archers ...eeurgh!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			1000 arrows a second unleashed by the English/Welsh archers ...eeurgh!!
		
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Do you have a link to prove this absolute. Or is at a Daily Fail equivalent 15th century tall tale.
Was that the same British archers who failed so miserably at Bannockburn. The must have got hold of a decent archery coach in between years.


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## CliveW (Nov 5, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder if they will do a prequel of Braveheart showing the rise of Bruce in the quaint English countryside ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚
		
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What has Braveheart got to do with Robert The Bruce???


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

Snowflakes need not click......


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## patricks148 (Nov 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have a link to prove this absolute. Or is at a Daily Fail equivalent 15th century tall tale.
Was that the same British archers who failed so miserably at Bannockburn. The must have got hold of a decent archery coach in between years.
		
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most historical texts state most of the archers were welsh. look up the indenture rolls for the arm of Henry V.

as for the difference between the archers between 1314 and 1415 there is 100 years difference and military tactics had changed in the time. the longbow tactic had been honed by the Edward iii in the 100 years war at Crecy and Poitiers. Edward the 1st favored heavy cavalry, the french downfall in all but the later years or the 100 years war


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## Beezerk (Nov 5, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			most historical texts state most of the archers were welsh. look up the indenture rolls for the arm of Henry V.

as for the difference between the archers between 1314 and 1415 there is 100 years difference and military tactics had changed in the time. the longbow tactic had been honed by the Edward iii in the 100 years war at Crecy and Poitiers. Edward the 1st favored heavy cavalry, the french downfall in all but the later years or the 100 years war
		
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Are you Simon Schama in disguise ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have a link to prove this absolute. Or is at a Daily Fail equivalent 15th century tall tale.
Was that the same British archers who failed so miserably at Bannockburn. The must have got hold of a decent archery coach in between years.
		
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You seem very rattled by this earth shattering news - must hurt to the core that one of your homelands favourite sons was actually English 

Text books and exams must be going through an extensive rewrite at the moment to ensure the changes are well documented


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## USER1999 (Nov 5, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seem very rattled by this earth shattering news - must hurt to the core that one of your homelands favourite sons was actually English 

Text books and exams must be going through an extensive rewrite at the moment to ensure the changes are well documented
		
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If he was a Norman, then he was French. Worse, or better than English?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 5, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			If he was a Norman, then he was French. Worse, or better than English?
		
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Blimey - think that might be a step up from the Scottish perspective


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2018)

De Brus was from French parentage. Far more civilised than both England and Scotland. Although his flipping between fighting Edward, and then supporting him, then subjugating many of the Scottish clans clearly suggest he was as trustworthy as Mo Johnstone or Kenny Miller playing for both Celtic and Rangers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seem very rattled by this earth shattering news - must hurt to the core that one of your homelands favourite sons was actually English 

Text books and exams must be going through an extensive rewrite at the moment to ensure the changes are well documented
		
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I think you need to calm yourself down a bit.
You seem to be the only one on this thread taking it seriously.


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## Liverbirdie (Nov 5, 2018)

Some eejit will say that St. George was Turkish/Syrian next........


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			Some eejit will say that St. George was Turkish/Syrian next........

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Or St Andrew was a Greek.


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## HughJars (Nov 6, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seem very rattled by this earth shattering news - must hurt to the core that one of your homelands favourite sons was actually English 

Text books and exams must be going through an extensive rewrite at the moment to ensure the changes are well documented
		
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According to actual historians (if you'd listened to this young girl on Radio Scotland giggling like a schoolgirl, you'd realise she's no academic), Bruce's mother never stepped foot outside Scotland, and he was absolutely born at Turnberry castle.  Good one to get the guffs going though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you need to calm yourself down a bit.
You seem to be the only one on this thread taking it seriously.
		
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It is serious Doon - this changes the whole history of Scotland , itâ€™s earth shattering , I understand schools are scrambling to ensure they teach right thing , I expect a day mourning soon, must be heartbreaking for you


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## DCB (Nov 6, 2018)

Enough ! Post 22 was a general warning. Lets keep it on track and civil.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 6, 2018)

DCB said:



			Enough ! Post 22 was a general warning. Lets keep it on track and civil.
		
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Do you mean post 32?


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## Tashyboy (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have a link to prove this absolute. Or is at a Daily Fail equivalent 15th century tall tale.
Was that the same British archers who failed so miserably at Bannockburn. The must have got hold of a decent archery coach in between years.
		
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As has been said. Most of the
â€œ britishâ€ archers at agincourt were welsh. Maybe its time the scotish thanked the welsh for helping them in not learning french if they had won. Although the eiffel tower would of looked good at the side of Edinburgh  castle. ðŸ˜‰


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## HughJars (Nov 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			As has been said. Most of the
â€œ britishâ€ archers at agincourt were welsh. Maybe its time the scotish thanked the welsh for helping them in not learning french if they had won. Although the eiffel tower would of looked good at the side of Edinburgh  castle. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Why would we thank them for that?


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## User62651 (Nov 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			As has been said. Most of the
â€œ britishâ€ archers at agincourt were welsh. Maybe its time the scotish thanked the welsh for helping them in not learning french if they had won. Although the eiffel tower would of looked good at the side of Edinburgh  castle. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Have you not seen Braveheart? - the English King's only gay son and heir wouldn't get his French bride up the duff so Wallace bed her instead (before they hacked him up) and so all subsequent monarchs of England we're actually half Wallace/Scottish half French! 

#thisthreadisgettingverysilly


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			As has been said. Most of the
â€œ britishâ€ archers at agincourt were welsh. Maybe its time the scotish thanked the welsh for helping them in not learning french if they had won. Although the eiffel tower would of looked good at the side of Edinburgh  castle. ðŸ˜‰
		
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I think Scotland may have been in an alliance with France at that time.

BTW In case it was not as obvious as intended the 'Archers' post was posted in the same jocular manner at the OP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			most historical texts state most of the archers were welsh. look up the indenture rolls for the arm of Henry V.

as for the difference between the archers between 1314 and 1415 there is 100 years difference and military tactics had changed in the time. the longbow tactic had been honed by the Edward iii in the 100 years war at Crecy and Poitiers. Edward the 1st favored heavy cavalry, the french downfall in all but the later years or the 100 years war
		
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What worked for Wallace at Stirling Bridge (boggy ground more than the schiltrom) failed him miserably at Falkirk (no boggy ground).  Bruce's success at Bannockburn was his imaginative and flexible generalship.


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## turkish (Nov 6, 2018)

DCB said:



			We'll,  if Wallace was born in Australia, why couldn't The Bruce have been born in Essex ........   ðŸ˜‰
		
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Mel Gibson is American ;-)


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## patricks148 (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Scotland may have been in an alliance with France at that time.

BTW In case it was not as obvious as intended the 'Archers' post was posted in the same jocular manner at the OP.
		
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indeed, Scottish  armies fought on the french side in the 100 years war. Most Famously at the battle of Verneuil in 1424.  a Scottish lord was even constable of France in this time.But then saying that the king of England and all his dependents were french anyway all written court correspondence where written it french and Henry the v was the first king to actually speak English i believe.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 6, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Why would we thank them for that? 

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They saved the british from talking french. Inc the Scottish. Not just the English. ðŸ‘

Thankyou Taff. See thats not hard ðŸ˜‰


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## DCB (Nov 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			They saved the british from talking french. Inc the Scottish. Not just the English. ðŸ‘

Thankyou Taff. See thats not hard ðŸ˜‰
		
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Ah, but.....  The Auld Alliance pre-dates Agencourt by 120 years, so, Scottish Nobles probably did have a smattering of French


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			They saved the british from talking french. Inc the Scottish. Not just the English. ðŸ‘

Thankyou Taff. See thats not hard ðŸ˜‰
		
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'The British' must have been time travellers then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 6, 2018)

Really we should have been French speakers following 1066. Apparently the French gave up trying to enforce peasants to speak French as they were too stupid and just couldn't manage it .

All said and done, this happened a very, very long time ago. Move on, let it go. (Saying that, this is all going to be stirred up again by a new Mary Queen of Scots film )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

The simple fact is that Robert I was a brilliant general and a great and well-loved man of the people.  The record tells us that he did not ask of those fighting with him anything that he would not do or suffer himself - and see the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320... Indeed it was only under his rule that Scotland united into a single recognisable entity that could be called the Kingdom of Scotland - before then it had been spilt between various competing and warring families - some with historical links back to kings from over the seas.


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## HughJars (Nov 7, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			They saved the british from talking french. Inc the Scottish. Not just the English. ðŸ‘

Thankyou Taff. See thats not hard ðŸ˜‰
		
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Not seeing how that's a good thing? Scots & French had an alliance long before we were colonised by the English. I'd be happy being more Franco than guff tbh.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The simple fact is that Robert I was a brilliant general and a great and well-loved man of the people.  The record tells us that he did not ask of those fighting with him anything that he would not do or suffer himself - and see the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320... Indeed it was only under his rule that Scotland united into a single recognisable entity that could be called the Kingdom of Scotland - before then it had been spilt between various competing and warring families - some with historical links back to kings from over the seas.
		
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The records were written by the winners! Can we seriously trust them?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The records were written by the winners! Can we seriously trust them?
		
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The records I refer to are about what the Scots thought of their King - and in respect of the Dec of Arbroath.  I am not talking of what the records said about the English and Edward II.  However following Bannockburn Robert I sought and agreed a peace settlement with Edward II that did not require anything to be forfeit by the English.

In fact Robert voluntarily relinquished some lands in England that were held by Scots lords - these Scots lords were not happy - but Robert recognised that handing back these lands would go some way to defuse the warring between the nations and result in peace.  And it did - for a while - then Bruce died in 1329 with the next King of Scotland being the boy David II - in minority - with John Balliol (of the other family contesting the Scottish throne) ruling though never being crowned.   And even although Robert I left behind a well structured country at peace with it's big brother neighbour - things quite rapidly deteriorated. After being crowned David II invaded England but was captured and Scotland had to pay 100,000 merks for his release - and that knackered the country.

Here endeth a wee lesson in Scottish kings of the early 14th century.  Bottom line - it matters not where Robert Bruce was born - he was of Norman descent and the great-great-grandson of King David I - but also of was a great and much vaunted Scottish king - and not just in recent centuries.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The records I refer to are about what the Scots thought of their King - and in respect of the Dec of Arbroath.  I am not talking of what the records said about the English and Edward II.  However following Bannockburn Robert I sought and agreed a peace settlement with Edward II that did not require anything to be forfeit by the English.

In fact Robert voluntarily relinquished some lands in England that were held by Scots lords - these Scots lords were not happy - but Robert recognised that handing back these lands would go some way to defuse the warring between the nations and result in peace.  And it did - for a while - then Bruce died in 1329 with the next King of Scotland being the boy David II - in minority - with John Balliol (of the other family contesting the Scottish throne) ruling though never being crowned.   And even although Robert I left behind a well structured country at peace with it's big brother neighbour - things quite rapidly deteriorated. After being crowned David II invaded England but was captured and Scotland had to pay 100,000 merks for his release - and that knackered the country.

Here endeth a wee lesson in Scottish kings of the early 14th century.  Bottom line - it matters not where Robert Bruce was born - he was of Norman descent and the great-great-grandson of King David I - but also of was a great and much vaunted Scottish king - and not just in recent centuries.
		
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Which commoners were educated to write their thoughts down! Are you seriously suggesting it was someone outside of court.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 7, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The records were written by the winners! Can we seriously trust them?
		
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This is something that should never be forgotten. Cesar invaded Gaul and committed genocide yet he is heralded as a great general and conquerer because he won, Romans wrote records, Gauls didn't. Romans were civilised, every one else was a barbarian. Repeat that through most of early history. History is largely written by the victors.


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## USER1999 (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here endeth a wee lesson in Scottish kings of the early 14th century.  Bottom line - it matters not where Robert Bruce was born - he was of Norman descent and the great-great-grandson of King David I - but also of was a great and much vaunted Scottish king - and not just in recent centuries.
		
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Scottish Kings, or Kings of Scotland?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Scottish Kings, or Kings of Scotland?
		
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Well actually apparently he preferred the title King of Scots as he saw himself as King of the people before the land.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 7, 2018)

DCB said:



			Ah, but.....  The Auld Alliance pre-dates Agencourt by 120 years, so, Scottish Nobles probably did have a smattering of French 

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And theres me thinking the smell was whisky. Its garlic ðŸ˜³


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## HughJars (Nov 8, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The records were written by the winners! Can we seriously trust them?
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Which commoners were educated to write their thoughts down! Are you seriously suggesting it was someone outside of court.
		
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Dear Scots, don't read up on your history, it may be flawed, unlike English history which is perfect. What a load of Guff.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 8, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Dear Scots, don't read up on your history, it may be flawed, unlike English history which is perfect. What a load of Guff.
		
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Awww petal, have I touched a nerve?
Just one question, were did I say Englandâ€™s or any other Nationâ€™s history was any more reliable?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Awww petal, have I touched a nerve?
Just one question, were did I say Englandâ€™s or any other Nationâ€™s history was any more reliable?
		
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You do know that the Declaration of Arbroath (of 1320) is a real document and a contemporaneous copy of it is held the National Archives of Scotland.  

One interesting aspect of it was that it states that, although Robert I has delivered the Scottish people from the peril and atrocities perpetrated by England under their presumed rule of Scotland, if the actions of anyone - including Robert I - put that independence at risk then the Scottish nobility would nullify that risk - and if that meant removing Robert I then they would do so - because Scotland is and always had been independent from England and always would be.


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## patricks148 (Nov 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do know that the Declaration of Arbroath (of 1320) is a real document and a contemporaneous copy of it is held the National Archives of Scotland. 

One interesting aspect of it was that it states that, although Robert I has delivered the Scottish people from the peril and atrocities perpetrated by England under their presumed rule of Scotland, if the actions of anyone - including Robert I - put that independence at risk then the Scottish nobility would nullify that risk - and if that meant removing Robert I then they would do so - because Scotland is and always had been independent from England and always would be.
		
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what about when James the 1st (6th of Scotland) came to the English throne ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do know that the Declaration of Arbroath (of 1320) is a real document and a contemporaneous copy of it is held the National Archives of Scotland. 

One interesting aspect of it was that it states that, although Robert I has delivered the Scottish people from the peril and atrocities perpetrated by England under their presumed rule of Scotland, if the actions of anyone - including Robert I - put that independence at risk then the Scottish nobility would nullify that risk - and if that meant removing Robert I then they would do so - because Scotland is and always had been independent from England and always would be.
		
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Mate, itâ€™s a 700yr old document, that and many many other documents from any Nation in the world I would be sceptical about.
I watched a programme last night about the looting of Iraq museums after the Iraqi wars, they had writing on stone tablets from 12000 years ago in there that stated Aliens visited earth.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have a link to prove this absolute. Or is at a Daily Fail equivalent 15th century tall tale.
Was that the same British archers who failed so miserably at Bannockburn. The must have got hold of a decent archery coach in between years.
		
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The archers failed so miserably at Bannockburn because they were so poorly used by Edward II.  In their rush to set up camp, the archers were deployed to the rear of the English lines, so when the Scots attacked at dawn the next morning they were rendered useless for fear of hitting their own troops in the back.  When some of them did finally move themselves to the flank and started finding Scottish targets, the Scots light horse under command of Robert Keith, scattered them.

The English/Welsh/British longbow was a potent weapon and was key to the success of English armies through medieval times.  They didnt require coaching, just the good leadership they had against the Scots at Falkirk in 1298, and even more so at Halidon Hill in 1333.

For what its worth, we will never know for sure where Bruce was born, but it was most likely Turnberry Castle, his mothers seat of power.  However, a previous post is absolutely right, this is an insignificant detail given the family and times he was born into.  Seems to be a headline grabbing bit of self promotion, given the imminent release of the Outlaw King at the weekend.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What worked for Wallace at Stirling Bridge (boggy ground more than the schiltrom) failed him miserably at Falkirk (no boggy ground).  Bruce's success at Bannockburn was his imaginative and flexible generalship.
		
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Near naked clansmen, crawling along the edge of the causeway to avoid the archers then knocking the English Heavy horse guys off their horses with long poles.
They then stabbed the hapless heavily armoured horsemen in the nether regions and cut the horses tendons. 
The following horsemen then barged into the logjam of slain troops and horses. They then slipped down into the bog where they were quickly dispatched
Seemingly this went on for hours.
Word got back to the Scottish camp of a [premature] great victory so the cooks and camp followers charged over the hill to congratulate them.
The English thought they were re-inforcements and called a retreat which caused even more disasters on the causeway.

Yea â€¦.good leadership from General Bruce, probably helped by poor tactics from the enemy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, itâ€™s a 700yr old document, that and many many other documents from any Nation in the world I would be sceptical about.
I watched a programme last night about the looting of Iraq museums after the Iraqi wars, they had writing on stone tablets from 12000 years ago in there that stated Aliens visited earth.
		
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The Declaration of Arbroath was a letter that was sent to the Pope stating Scotland's position in respect of it's independence from it's neighbour.  It isn't a historical record of how Scotland saw the previous 100 plus years of war with England.  And they sent it to the Pope because it was the Pope who had decided that Scotland  should come under English rule.  Robert I and most of the Scots nobility and clergy disagreed, and following Bannockburn and the defeat of Edward II they decided to declare their intent to be forever an independent nation.

Copies of the original would have been made *before *the original was sent off to the Pope - because the Scots would have wanted a record of what they were sending to the Pope - and so the copies were all sealed by the King and same nobles and clergy as the original.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2018)

lobthewedge said:



			The archers failed so miserably at Bannockburn because they were so poorly used by Edward II.  In their rush to set up camp, the archers were deployed to the rear of the English lines, so when the Scots attacked at dawn the next morning they were rendered useless for fear of hitting their own troops in the back.  When some of them did finally move themselves to the flank and started finding Scottish targets, the Scots light horse under command of Robert Keith, scattered them.

The English/Welsh/British longbow was a potent weapon and was key to the success of English armies through medieval times.  They didnt require coaching, just the good leadership they had against the Scots at Falkirk in 1298, and even more so at Halidon Hill in 1333.

For what its worth, we will never know for sure where Bruce was born, but it was most likely Turnberry Castle, his mothers seat of power.  However, a previous post is absolutely right, this is an insignificant detail given the family and times he was born into.  Seems to be a headline grabbing bit of self promotion, given the imminent release of the Outlaw King at the weekend.
		
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Indeed - most likely born at Turnberry - but even if born in a part of what is now England, back then that part of England will most likely have been Scottish territory - even though beyond the formal border of Scotland of the time.  Kind of like being British (if you so desire) when born in NI today.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Copies of the original would have been made *before *the original was sent off to the Pope
		
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Thereâ€™s no way they had photocopiers in them days!


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thereâ€™s no way they had photocopiers in them days! 

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Probably scanned in and faxed. Maybe they used..... chain mail


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Probably scanned in and faxed. Maybe they used..... chain mail
		
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nice one Bri...


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## lobthewedge (Nov 9, 2018)

Just watched outlaw king.

No hint of an English accent from the main man, so defo born in scotland!


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 10, 2018)

William Wallace was born in America.  Came over here to play the part and then unfortunately died at the end.     Saw it myself.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Think it was 99% filmed in Scotland at various locations. With part of it filmed at Berwick Upon Tweed and the Northumberland border area.
		
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Just watched it and it was filmed in Scotland

Good film, seems pretty historically correct except I am pretty certain that The Bruce did not have a 'square go' with Edward 11 at Louden Hill.
Chris Pine was a decent lead.


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## patricks148 (Nov 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just watched it and it was filmed in Scotland

Good film, seems pretty historically correct except I am pretty certain that The Bruce did not have a 'square go' with Edward 11 at Louden Hill.
Chris Pine was a decent lead.
		
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watched it on netflix last night, TBH very disappointed with it, wasn't much better than Mels effort on Wallace TBH, glad i didn't pay to see it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			watched it on netflix last night, TBH very disappointed with it, wasn't much better than Mels effort on Wallace TBH, glad i didn't pay to see it.
		
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Started watching it but didn't find myself getting engaged with it and so only got to 20mins in and haven't yet gone back. Didn't help that almost the first bit of historical exposition given was I thought a bit inaccurate - but will watch again from the start just in case I misread or misheard.  It was something about Wallace, Stirling Castle, Stirling Bridge and 1304 and seemed to conflate the battle of 1297 with the siege of Stirling Castle in 1304.

But it's just a film.  So will go and watch it again from the start.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Started watching it but didn't find myself getting engaged with it and so only got to 20mins in and haven't yet gone back. Didn't help that almost the first bit of historical exposition given was I thought a bit inaccurate - but will watch again from the start just in case I misread or misheard.  It was something about Wallace, Stirling Castle, Stirling Bridge and 1304 and seemed to conflate the battle of 1297 with the siege of Stirling Castle in 1304.

But it's just a film.  So will go and watch it again from the start.
		
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I would give it another go if I was you.  If you are willing to turn a blind eye to some timeline issues (given the time constraints of trying to cram a lot of story into a 2 hour film) they did not a bad job.  

The polar opposite of braveheart, in they clearly did their homework on the historical figures and were pretty accurate with little details like coats of arms etc.  They also did a good job on the depiction of battles with the ambush at methven, the Douglas larder and Loudon hill pretty accurate (apart from the square go at the end, that was a bit silly and unnecessary).

It could really have done with a large injection of the humour and charisma that made braveheart so popular, very few characters and all a bit dull. If it was me I would have sold it as a series, maybe 5 or 6 episodes and told the whole story with some meat on the bones.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2018)

lobthewedge said:



			It could really have done with a large injection of the humour and charisma that made braveheart so popular, very few characters and all a bit dull. If it was me I would have sold it as a series, maybe 5 or 6 episodes and told the whole story with some meat on the bones.
		
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Totally agree, too big a subject to cram into two hours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			watched it on netflix last night, TBH very disappointed with it, wasn't much better than Mels effort on Wallace TBH, glad i didn't pay to see it.
		
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Watched it all again last night.  But yes - much better than Braveheart.  Nice visualisation at one point of hanging and drawing a fella - eeeugh!!  And sticking Bruce's daughter Marjorie in a cage hanging from the wall of Berwick castle (or was it Roxburgh?) ...not nice...but true.  Also pretty brutal reconstruction of a medieval battle with Louden Hill (not chivalrous or glamerous - just bloody murderous carnage).  And a decent portrayal of the relationships between Comyn, Bruce and Douglas - and Macdougall and MacDonald.  Even my own clan got a mention at one point...  We were out in the '45 also.

Though as it didn't go on to 1314 - room for a sequel?

In general - yes - a mini-series covering the life of Bruce would be good - as it could cover the complexities and rivalries that led to Bruce becoming king - and the various relationships the different main families formed with the French and the English.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 13, 2018)

All historical films have an element of guesswork in the conversations, liberties taken with timelines and certain settings. They need to happen to keep the story moving, to make things fit within the time allowed. If you kept rigidly to the story then you would need a mini series, not a film. You need to suspend the pedantry for a while, sit back and enjoy the ride.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watched it all again last night.  But yes - much better than Braveheart.  Nice visualisation at one point of hanging and drawing a fella - eeeugh!!  And sticking Bruce's daughter Marjorie in a cage hanging from the wall of Berwick castle (or was it Roxburgh?) ...not nice...but true.  Also pretty brutal reconstruction of a medieval battle with Louden Hill (not chivalrous or glamerous - just bloody murderous carnage).  And a decent portrayal of the relationships between Comyn, Bruce and Douglas - and Macdougall and MacDonald.  Even my own clan got a mention at one point...  We were out in the '45 also.

Though as it didn't go on to 1314 - room for a sequel?

In general - yes - a mini-series covering the life of Bruce would be good - as it could cover the complexities and rivalries that led to Bruce becoming king - and the various relationships the different main families formed with the French and the English.
		
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Like you, I thought it started slowly. And yes, it did improve but I thought it a little shallow at times. I think you're right, a mini-series might have been better. At least that way they could have given some time to add depth to the characters. Mind you, the guy that played Douglas was excellent. Had me convinced he was a mad berserker! Edward's son played the part well too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			All historical films have an element of guesswork in the conversations, liberties taken with timelines and certain settings. They need to happen to keep the story moving, to make things fit within the time allowed. If you kept rigidly to the story then you would need a mini series, not a film. You need to suspend the pedantry for a while, sit back and enjoy the ride.
		
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If you find an interest in Bruce and fancy learning more in the context of a ripping yarn - I recommend the Nigel Tranter _Bruce Trilogy._  He really brings the main players of late 13thC and early 14thC Scotland alive.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you find an interest in Bruce and fancy learning more in the context of a ripping yarn - I recommend the Nigel Tranter _Bruce Trilogy._  He really brings the main players of late 13thC and early 14thC Scotland alive.
		
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 Spooky....I downloaded that on Kindle last night at the bargain price of 99p.
Tranter is a brilliant storyteller and I have read most of his books.
Met him a couple of times as a young boy, he was a friend of my Aunts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Like you, I thought it started slowly. And yes, it did improve but I thought it a little shallow at times. I think you're right, a mini-series might have been better. At least that way they could have given some time to add depth to the characters. Mind you, the guy that played Douglas was excellent. Had me convinced he was a mad berserker! Edward's son played the part well too.
		
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Apparently Edward II was pretty weak and bullied by has father....but he commanded a large army...

Mini-series based upon the Tranter Trilogy would be great.  Think I will re-read.

I am thinking I might regale/inflict the audience at my Burns Supper on 19th Jan with a rousing rendition of_ Scots Wha Hae _(of course everyone knew that Burns wrote it - that song we used to sing at Hampden and Murrayfield - before FoS came on the scene - but never knew all the words)


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## USER1999 (Nov 14, 2018)

Is there really a big enough market for a predominantly Sottish minority interest, for a big budget mini series based on 800 year old stuff no one apart from the Scottish are interested in? 

Just asking? 

And yes, Mel Gibsons Braveheart was box office, but that was mainly because, at the time, Mel G could have put out utter garbage, and it would have sold on the back of it being him.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 14, 2018)

I think the point was more that there was sufficient going on at that time that would be better served via a mini series than in a time restricted film. Lots of intrigue, different groups, changing sides, betrayal etc. The lack of a mini series probably answers your question.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 14, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Is there really a big enough market for a predominantly Sottish minority interest, for a big budget mini series based on 800 year old stuff no one apart from the Scottish are interested in?

Just asking?
		
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Regardless of the nationality, the events of this period and the people involved are worthy of any potential viewing audience, if it was made in the right way. 

Take wolf hall for example, I couldnâ€™t give a monkeys about the court of Henry viii but that was bloody good tv and had me hooked, because it was very well made with the time and scale to breath life into these real characters. That is what we are trying to say about this, if made properly the material is all there for someone to make a great mini series of it.

You have blood and gore, kings and queens, massive battles, murder, corruption, betrayal and political intrigue - essentially game of thrones but without the dragons!


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## Parmo (Nov 15, 2018)

Just read through this, I would say they were not English but Normans and so French


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Is there really a big enough market for a predominantly Sottish minority interest, for a big budget mini series based on 800 year old stuff no one apart from the Scottish are interested in?.[/QUOTE

You mean like Outlander.

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## patricks148 (Nov 15, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Is there really a big enough market for a predominantly Sottish minority interest, for a big budget mini series based on 800 year old stuff no one apart from the Scottish are interested in?

Just asking?

And yes, Mel Gibsons Braveheart was box office, but that was mainly because, at the time, Mel G could have put out utter garbage, and it would have sold on the back of it being him.
		
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baring in mind 90% of yanks think they are descended from Scots, of course there's no market


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			baring in mind 90% of yanks think they are descended from Scots, of course there's no market 

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I thought they were all Irish .

I feel sorry for the Welsh in all of this. No one ever seems to want to be descended from Wales yet it is a lovely place. They need to market themselves better to get the American dollar.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I thought they were all Irish .

I feel sorry for the Welsh in all of this. No one ever seems to want to be descended from Wales yet it is a lovely place. They need to market themselves better to get the American dollar.
		
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Don't forget the part the Welsh can claim to have in the exploits of William Wallace - after all Welsh would have been his first (maybe only) language.  And they have Owen Glendooor.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I thought they were all Irish .

I feel sorry for the Welsh in all of this. No one ever seems to want to be descended from Wales yet it is a lovely place. They need to market themselves better to get the American dollar.
		
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Didn't their decendents all move to Patagonia.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Didn't their decendents all move to Patagonia.
		
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A good number. 

I find the whole Americans wanting to be something else other than Americans very odd / amusing. They are vehemently patriotic yet so many are desperate to trace their ancestors and then make claim to that country. Even the titles that are given now, Italian American, Irish American etc. Why not just American? 

Never Welsh American though. I have an image of a small group, no more than 5 people, under this banner meeting once a year to drink tea and eat Bara brith .


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I thought they were all Irish .

I feel sorry for the Welsh in all of this. No one ever seems to want to be descended from Wales yet it is a lovely place. They need to market themselves better to get the American dollar.
		
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*raise hand*

Erm I'm 1/8 Welsh


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## MegaSteve (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Never Welsh American though. I have an image of a small group, no more than 5 people, under this banner meeting once a year to drink tea and eat Bara brith .
		
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There were not enough sheep to go round....


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			*raise hand*

Erm I'm 1/8 Welsh 

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Do you tick the box marked Welsh English on the census?


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you tick the box marked Welsh English on the census? 

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There was a "confused" option I went for


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			*raise hand*

Erm I'm 1/8 Welsh 

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My name is Doon and I am 50% Welsh bach


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 15, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			baring in mind 90% of yanks think they are descended from Scots, of course there's no market 

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I think you may be confusing Canada with USA.

Every recent POTUS has desperately sought to show he has ancestral connections with Ireland but  Trump aside, I don't recall too many making the same claims for Scotland. 

Canada is  a different story with a very large proportion of the population having Scottish heritage.


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## patricks148 (Nov 15, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			I think you may be confusing Canada with USA.

Every recent POTUS has desperately sought to show he has ancestral connections with Ireland but  Trump aside, I don't recall too many making the same claims for Scotland.

Canada is  a different story with a very large proportion of the population having Scottish heritage.
		
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I said think, not they were
the thousands coming up here every year and too Scotland in general would disagree> My wife and her friend do Outlander Tours and pretty much every one of those going on them are claiming Scottish Heritage FYI Trumps mother was from the Western isles.

anyway my comment on 90% was tongue in cheek


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			I said think, not they were
the thousands coming up here every year and too Scotland in general would disagree> My wife and her friend do Outlander Tours and pretty much every one of those going on them are claiming Scottish Heritage FYI Trumps mother was from the Western isles.

anyway my comment on 90% was tongue in cheek

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Aye - but bear in mind that Trump's mother was from Lewis - and as any Hebridean will tell you - the Lewis folk are a bit weird and think themselves superior (remind you of anyone?) - a weirdness and superiority only perhaps equalled by the good folks of Islay.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Tash's OP has just got me wondering, my missus is an Essex girl and she is really into her family history, got it back to 1650's, hmmmmmmmmmm..â€¦...


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