# WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-



## SaintHacker (Feb 13, 2022)

So getting away from the 'C' word for a while...
Russia amassing ahige amount of troops on the Ukrainian border, with some bigs words being thrown around by the major players.
Ukraine isn't part of NATO, and Russia don't want it to be understandably. Could this be the next Cuban missile crisis? Worrying times ahead...


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2022)

I just hope it’s Putin willy waving but then it’ll be a big climb down from him  if he walks away


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So getting away from the 'C' word for a while...
Russia amassing ahige amount of troops on the Ukrainian border, with some bigs words being thrown around by the major players.
Ukraine isn't part of NATO, and Russia don't want it to be understandably. Could this be the next Cuban missile crisis? Worrying times ahead...

Click to expand...

Maybe this is the Great Reset everybody's on about...


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Maybe this is the Great Reset everybody's on about...
View attachment 41122

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Maybe they want to “build back better”


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## BiMGuy (Feb 13, 2022)

Russia will do what they want, nobody can stop them. The West will grumble and have meetings, but do nothing about it. 

The people of the Ukraine will suffer. Some of them will leave and seek refuge in this country and the usual suspects will complain about it. 

It’s a 💩 storm, but WW3? Nope.


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## Deleted member 31582 (Feb 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Russia will do what they want, nobody can stop them. *The West will grumble and have meetings, but do nothing about it.*

The people of the Ukraine will suffer. Some of them will leave and seek refuge in this country and the usual suspects will complain about it.

It’s a 💩 storm, but WW3? Nope.
		
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That’s not the case, there’s already a lot of movement of various troops on the move from ‘the west’!

Extra US troops have already been sent into nearby Eastern European countries as they won’t go into the Ukraine, so they can deploy and react quickly if Russia makes a move! 

I can understand why Russia wouldn’t want the Ukraine to become a NATO member, and see western ships and troops based so close to them, but how far will Russia go to stop that happening?


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## cliveb (Feb 13, 2022)

OK, let me start by admitting I don't know much about this, and there are presumably a number of issues involved. However...

If the core problem is that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO, I frankly agree with them.
For NATO to think about Ukraine joining is just irresponsible. Talk about poking a bear with a stick. What do they expect?

(Of course that doesn't make it OK to invade, though. Just thought I should make that clear in case anyone thinks I might believe otherwise).


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## Deleted member 31582 (Feb 13, 2022)

I think Putin is more than prepared to show his cards, with over 100 thousand troops spread all around the border, but, US troops are already bolstering inside Poland & Romania in readiness, with a lot more transportation & movements currently going on right across Europe towards those neighboring borders. 

This is looking a lot more than a flexing of the muscles or posturing, this could get very very serious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2022)

Seemingly if Russia invade the UK is going to hit them with massive sanctions.
Deluded or what


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## Deleted member 31582 (Feb 13, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly if Russia invade the UK is going to hit them with massive sanctions.
Deluded or what

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Putin will obviously be aware of this, plus all the financials where all assets and monies here in the UK, and possibly across Europe and the US, which are considerable, would be frozen.

It’s a serious game of poker being played that’s for sure.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 13, 2022)

Does Putin see NATO as a real threat? Who in their right minds would want to invade Russia anyway.

If Russia invade, there is little NATO will do apart from humanitarian help, and if there is fisticuffs, Putin will turn off the gas pipe and we are all screwed


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## DaveR (Feb 13, 2022)

Pile thousands of allied troops on the Finland border and threaten to invade St Petersburg if Russia invades the Ukraine 😉


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## SaintHacker (Feb 13, 2022)

There was an interesting opinion i read on another site that the Chinese are putting pressure on Putin to do this to deflect attention from them so they can quietly take back Taiwan


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## DaveR (Feb 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Does Putin see NATO as a real threat? Who in their right minds would want to invade Russia anyway.

If Russia invade, there is little NATO will do apart from humanitarian help, and if there is fisticuffs, Putin will turn off the gas pipe and we are all screwed
		
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If he turns off the gas pipe that's a massive dent to his economy.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Does Putin see NATO as a real threat? Who in their right minds would want to invade Russia anyway.

If Russia invade, there is little NATO will do apart from humanitarian help, and if there is fisticuffs, Putin will turn off the gas pipe and we are all screwed
		
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As things stand Russia doesn’t have that many borders with NATO. Invade the Ukraine and it then borders Romania, Hungary and Poland all members of NATO.

Simple answer for both sides is for Ukraine not to join NATO = it acts as a buffer between Russia and NATO.


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## Beezerk (Feb 13, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			There was an interesting opinion i read on another site that the Chinese are putting pressure on Putin to do this to deflect attention from them so they can quietly take back Taiwan
		
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Sounds a little bit tin foil hat to me 🤔


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## Deleted member 31582 (Feb 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			As things stand Russia doesn’t have that many borders with NATO. Invade the Ukraine and it then borders Romania, Hungary and Poland all members of NATO.

Simple answer for both sides is for Ukraine not to join NATO = it acts as a buffer between Russia and NATO.
		
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And if a deal is struck to that end, we’ll never get to know all the details, just that the Ukraine held the trump card and played Russia and NATO against each other, to the Ukraines advantage.


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## jim8flog (Feb 13, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly if Russia invade the UK ....

Sometimes reading the first part leads to a big smile.

Russians already own lots of London
		
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## Fade and Die (Feb 13, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Pile thousands of allied troops on the Finland border and threaten to invade St Petersburg if Russia invades the Ukraine 😉
		
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Finland are not in NATO. In fact there is a term which explains the whole issue in Ukraine. “Finlandization”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

This little animation is very good at explaining why Finland are not in NATO…






Odd country Ukraine, a lot of the people that live there consider themselves more Russian than Ukrainian. Russia used this obviously to annex the Crimea, will they expand? My Ukrainian electrician reckons not but with a lot of confrontational language coming from the West, who knows.


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## Deleted member 31582 (Feb 13, 2022)

That’s a good little animation, so I can see a similar treaty being reached, namely Ukrainianization, which benefits all concerned, No NATO in the Ukraine, no invasion, Ukraine stays independent with a signed agreement that it won’t allow forces to go through its country to invade Russia, which I eluded to earlier.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

*Putin recognises independence of breakaway areas of Ukraine*
The Kremlin says President Putin has decided to recognise the independence of two breakaway areas of Ukraine controlled by Russian-backed separatists. 
A Kremlin statement said Putin had told the French and German leaders he intended to sign a decree recognising the Donetsk and Luhansk areas as independent states.


So is this the first step for Russia to move in ?

What is going to be the impact for the rest of the world


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2022)

Not good.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Watching his speech, and am awaiting his views on free Covid testing and mandatory self isolation


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 21, 2022)

And if he'll change into his army boots in the car park.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 21, 2022)

I think one man should not have the power to take a country to war.
If one side starts to think they are losing what happens then.
Red buttons at dawn.
Very scary atm.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2022)

We need to keep this non political. please, by all means discuss world events, but if it strays, infractions will start to fly


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## SteveW86 (Feb 21, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We need to keep this non political. please, by all means discuss world events, but if it strays, infractions will start to fly
		
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😂😂 good luck! Of course this will go political.


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			😂😂 good luck! Of course this will go political.
		
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We all know it’s brexit’s fault


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We need to keep this non political. please, by all means discuss world events, but if it strays, infractions will start to fly
		
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Hmmm, could be tricky to avoid politics in this subject. Unless an outbreak of war is decided by Ant and Dec on Saturday Night Takeaway, rather than those politiciany type people


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2022)

Ominous activity with 'peacekeeping' action announced!


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

Bumping this thread as I think it has just gone up a level In Ukraine. ☹️


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60468237

So “peacekeeping” troops going in of course with only the authority of Russia 

That’s pretty much Ukraine done and dusted soon enough


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2022)

OK - keeping it non political - any good golf courses in Ukraine?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK - keeping it non political - any good golf courses in Ukraine?
		
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No idea, but several years ago I saw a fantastic golf break advertised in Damascus. 5 star hotel, stunning course. Then I realised Damascus was the capital of Syria. No thanks.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			We all know it’s brexit’s fault
		
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as was Covid!


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 22, 2022)

Threads merged 👍


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 22, 2022)

What does Putin think about the WHS though?


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Threads merged 👍
		
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Ah so a moderator can do it properly .....


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## Dando (Feb 22, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What does Putin think about the WHS though?
		
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He looks the sort to change his shoes in the car park


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## Beedee (Feb 22, 2022)

I hope Chelsea didn't have any big purchases planned for the next transfer window.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2022)

Are we allowed to discuss mods ?

Germans have pulled the plug on Nordstream 👍


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## The Lion (Feb 22, 2022)

I’d hope so, this is a huge problem looming for all of Europe with multiple knock-on effects for everyone. 

So yes mods, please allow discussion…


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2022)

WW3 thread is up and running..


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2022)

What's wrong with the thread already live?


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2022)

I thought my thread title was better 😉😜

BREAKING: Russia has said recognition of independence for areas in east Ukraine extends to territory now held by Ukrainian forces.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2022)

Going to recognise the independence of the bit of next door’s garden I quite like the look of.


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2022)

I am currently setting up a clinical trial which includes sites (hospitals and clinics) in Russia and Ukraine. In trial planning, you always build in a contingency for any of the many things that can muck up plans, although annexation is not usually on the list of potential problems.

I suspect we may be abandoning some of the Ukrainian sites, at least those in Donetsk. I don't remember if there are any in Luhansk. We can't send staff into the area to monitor sites, and the hospitals may have other things on their minds.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 22, 2022)

Another Russia Ukraine thread merged into this one


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

This is going to end up like an good old game of command and conquer red alert 2

Conscript reporting 

Worrying times. Just what we need on the back of covid a lovely war 🙄


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

I wonder how long Russia have been considering this formal invasion? Last few months, or has it been years in the making?

If it has been years in the making, why now? Strategically, would it have made more sense when the rest of the world was in a panic in the height of the pandemic, rather than now when countries are a lot more stable and starting to return to more normality?


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## SaintHacker (Feb 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Another Russia Ukraine thread merged into this one
		
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You should probably get Patrick to do it if there's that many, he could do with the practice...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how long Russia have been considering this formal invasion? Last few months, or has it been years in the making?

If it has been years in the making, why now? Strategically, would it have made more sense when the rest of the world was in a panic in the height of the pandemic, rather than now when countries are a lot more stable and starting to return to more normality?
		
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I think it's got a lot to do with Russia's loss of influence in Europe and its leaders wanting to put out signals that they're still a power to be reckoned with.    

Someone made a comment on the Forum recently that Russia will invade at the end of the Olympics.  Seems like that was the case.


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## Dando (Feb 22, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			You should probably get Patrick to do it if there's that many, he could do with the practice...

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he'll probably manage to delete the internet


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how long Russia have been considering this formal invasion? Last few months, or has it been years in the making?

If it has been years in the making, why now? Strategically, would it have made more sense when the rest of the world was in a panic in the height of the pandemic, rather than now when countries are a lot more stable and starting to return to more normality?
		
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Some might say their hasn't been war in Europe for X amount of years until a little country with ideas above their station decided to go it alone because they used to rule the waves


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## PNWokingham (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how long Russia have been considering this formal invasion? Last few months, or has it been years in the making?

If it has been years in the making, why now? Strategically, would it have made more sense when the rest of the world was in a panic in the height of the pandemic, rather than now when countries are a lot more stable and starting to return to more normality?
		
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This has been on the cards for years. Crimea was the start in 2014. Since then Donetsk and Luhansk have been volatile and "in play" for the next move. Russians make up around half or more of the population in these areas. I suspect Putin contemplated anexing these territories in 2014 but decided to play it "safe" and wait for the next oportunity. Since then Ukraine has restructured its sovereign debt and implemented many economic improvements in conjunction with IMF help. This has pushed the country's loyalty and outlook more towards the west and that has been a big finger to the grisly bear. I hope his hunger is satisfied by the latest moves and that he leaves the rest of the country alone - it will be a lot harder to justify further moves given the population mix in the rest of the country but a lot will depend on how the west behave - Nato membership for Ukraine is a big fat red line - but i don't think in reality that would ever happen anyway and would be daft for NATO to push this confrontational strategy that has been talked about for years. My best guess is that this is the end game for now in Russian ambitions but will be very volatile for several months. The sanctions announced today by UK and Europe are mild and are not going to cause Russia many issues. We have yet to see the US response but i suspect it will also be relatively calm - and nothing like what would transpire if he pushes more towards a full takeover


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Some might say their hasn't been war in Europe for X amount of years until a little country with ideas above their station decided to go it alone because they used to rule the waves
		
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That's a rather odd conclusion.  Maybe you could point out your thinking on how that Nation had any influence on Russia's current situation.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather odd conclusion.  Maybe you could point out your thinking on how that Nation had any influence on Russia's current situation.
		
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The organisation left behind was more solid. 

Weakened both small nation and the union by leaving. Causing unnecessary distractions for Russia to take advantage of the chaos.


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			he'll probably manage to delete the internet
		
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Alas there appears to be an issue with some of the stuff a can access on the mod functions  and IT are looking at a fix..my infraction and ban button still works though😉


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## Dando (Feb 22, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas there appears to be an issue with some of the stuff a can access on the mod functions  and IT are looking at a fix..my infraction and ban button still works though😉
		
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A good workman never blames their tools! 🤣🤣🤣


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## Smiffy (Feb 22, 2022)

If it all kicks off, I'm going to stand next to Cliff Richard...

he hasn't had a hit in years 🤔🤔🤔


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The organisation left behind was more solid.

Weakened both small nation and the union by leaving. Causing unnecessary distractions for Russia to take advantage of the chaos.
		
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Chaos, what Chaos?

Do you mean that trading block which never had a military. 

Anyhow we won't go down that road as it's not allowed.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 22, 2022)

My Super Mod Powers are picking up veiled political posts, well actually pretty blatant.

Lets not go there please or ill let Patrick loose with his infraction button, then anything could happen


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how long Russia have been considering this formal invasion? Last few months, or has it been years in the making?

If it has been years in the making, why now? Strategically, would it have made more sense when the rest of the world was in a panic in the height of the pandemic, rather than now when countries are a lot more stable and starting to return to more normality?
		
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Seems strange the Russians invaded when Boris took away all restrictions. 😳 looks like Boris should of kept them in place for another 20 years 😁


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

A pal posted on face book the other days the natural resources that Ukraine has. Flippin eck it’s rich.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			My Super Mod Powers are picking up veiled political posts, well actually pretty blatant.

Lets not go there please or ill let Patrick loose with his infraction button, then anything could happen
		
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As long as it's not a Red button we should be ok.......


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## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2022)

The west lost this when they did nothing over Crimea and the occupation of Eastern Ukraine. The AT weapons sent by the UK will be nothing more than a pin prick . Most of the Russian troops have come from the Far East of Russia and as far as Putin is concerned, expendable.
Im sure the Ukraine was extremely grateful for the 5000 helmets and the mobile hospital equipment sent by Germany. France have kindly offered accommodation for Biden and Putin to take tea in.


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## greenone (Feb 22, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			A pal posted on face book the other days the natural resources that Ukraine has. Flippin eck it’s rich.
		
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Pales into insignificance compared to Siberia.


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## IanM (Feb 22, 2022)

France have just surrendered.


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## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Are we allowed to discuss mods ?

Germans have pulled the plug on Nordstream 👍
		
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Only Nordstream2, which isn’t operating yet, they any others getting gas via Nordstream1


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## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			As things stand Russia doesn’t have that many borders with NATO.
		
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2, Estonia and Latvia both with 2 heavy armored brigades that have been training for several months along with a reserve division in Poland.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

greenone said:



			Pales into insignificance compared to Siberia.
		
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Impressive none the less.

Copied from another site.

For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine matter? “
This is why Ukraine matters.
It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population
of over 40 million - more than Poland.
Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.
Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
Ukraine is an important industrialised country:
1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.

found the post and copied. 👍


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## RichA (Feb 22, 2022)

Russia have always played games and pushed their adversaries. This probably isn't even about Ukraine. It'll be a means to a political end that we in the west haven't even dreamed of yet.
The move on Ukraine is like Kane running into the middle of the box and dragging the defenders with him. Who's watching Son sneaking up on the back post?


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## Robster59 (Feb 22, 2022)

If anyone is watching the "Rise of the Nazis" series on BBC 2, some of the Nazi's push for territory, and how they justify it, are quite stark. 
I would imagine Russia have been subversively promoting unrest in these areas for some time to give them a "justification" (and I use that word advisedly) for going into the Ukraine. 
The issue is that if you have one man in power, and he has such power that he controls the media, controls the country and suppresses any unrest, then megalomania settles in. They believe they are untouchable and all their decisions are right and justified.  I think that's part of the reason why the Americans only allow a President two terms.  Last one to have three was Roosevelt.


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## DanFST (Feb 22, 2022)

My Lithuanian friend is very happy they are part of NATO. 

I can't use her words for the Russians.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2022)

All I am thinking is this is how it started when I saw Threads in school. That ended well


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## RichA (Feb 22, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All I am thinking is this is how it started when I saw Threads in school. That ended well
		
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That's a sleepless night for anyone under the age of 50 who doesn't know what you're on about and Googles it. 
...and now I'm thinking about "The Bedford Incident" too.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

Europe was as divided as I remember after Brexit. Ironically, they may be becoming more United again with a common goal against Russia. Every cloud...


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			...I think that's part of the reason why the Americans only allow a President two terms.  Last one to have three was Roosevelt.
		
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Roosevelt actually won a 4th term, though died in office.


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## Robster59 (Feb 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Roosevelt actually won a 4th term, though died in office.
		
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I stand corrected 👍


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The west lost this when they did nothing over Crimea and the occupation of Eastern Ukraine. The AT weapons sent by the UK will be nothing more than a pin prick . Most of the Russian troops have come from the Far East of Russia and as far as Putin is concerned, expendable.
Im sure the Ukraine was extremely grateful for the 5000 helmets and the mobile hospital equipment sent by Germany. France have kindly offered accommodation for Biden and Putin to take tea in.
		
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Russia has been planning a resurgence of the USSR 2 for 40 years and Crimea was just a prod to test NATO.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

RichA said:



			Russia have always played games and pushed their adversaries. This probably isn't even about Ukraine. It'll be a means to a political end that we in the west haven't even dreamed of yet.
The move on Ukraine is like Kane running into the middle of the box and dragging the defenders with him. *Who's watching Son sneaking up on the back post?*

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Would that be China playing away in Taiwan 🤔


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I stand corrected 👍
		
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Wasn't actually a 'correction'; simply an addendum.
Though a clarification me be required...The 2 term limit only became law (Constitution amendment) in 1951. It was a 'tradition' before that, based on Washington's 'ready to retire' statement.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I stand corrected 👍
		
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No need to be corrected. You were still technically correct, he still had 3 terms, he just also had another one afterwards on top


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## SaintHacker (Feb 22, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All I am thinking is this is how it started when I saw Threads in school. That ended well
		
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Its Ok that was set in sheffield, it would probably do a few millions £ worth of improvements if anything...


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## Jensen (Feb 22, 2022)

drdel said:



			Russia has been planning a resurgence of the USSR 2 for 40 years and Crimea was just a prod to test NATO.
		
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Eh, 40 years ago in 1982 The USSR was a Superpower!!!


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## OntheteeGavin (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The organisation left behind was more solid.

Weakened both small nation and the union by leaving. Causing unnecessary distractions for Russia to take advantage of the chaos.
		
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## OntheteeGavin (Feb 22, 2022)

Joke.

In the late 1990's the Serbian army was not scared of the great EU/UN army. Bombing by USA & UK, under NATO changed that. 

Putin's got the world against him, he was doing this regardless of brexit! He has waited for the USA to be weak, in terms of President & its general public not wanting another drawn out war.


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## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2022)

Another BG on the move


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 23, 2022)




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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 41403

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Bugger gave my 3 Parker’s to the greenkeepers. May need slightly larger tank suit.


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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2022)

Will also require the loan of a T80 as Ukraine has more panzers than us.


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## Dando (Feb 23, 2022)

Just watching sky news and they’ve questioned 2 Russians - one blamed the USA and the other blamed Ukraine  for the situation


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## OntheteeGavin (Feb 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 41403

Click to expand...

Arte et marte ⚡


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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2022)

OntheteeGavin said:



			Arte et marte ⚡
		
Click to expand...

Or translated -  you break um, we fix um.


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## Smiffy (Feb 23, 2022)

My recent pension drawdown is beginning to look like a sensible move...😳😳😳😳


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Or translated -  you break um, we fix um.
		
Click to expand...

Youbendum Wemendum 🙂


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## Dando (Feb 24, 2022)

And so it begins


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## Smiffy (Feb 24, 2022)

Dando said:



			And so it begins
		
Click to expand...

Worrying times.....


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## Dando (Feb 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Worrying times.....
		
Click to expand...

Certainly is mate


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## Smiffy (Feb 24, 2022)

Dando said:



			Certainly is mate
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2022)

may I be first to welcome our new glorious leader..


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

Health and Safety at Work for a journalist must be an interesting read. No doubt they've been following the same Covid polices as the rest of us for the last couple of years. Yet, as soon as a war breaks out, it is pack your bags to Kiev.


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## DanFST (Feb 24, 2022)

This has made me very upset.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



View attachment 41405

Click to expand...

History has a knack of repeating itself


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## stefanovic (Feb 24, 2022)

In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter, or keep windows closed and don't go out until all clear sounded.
In case you think this is far fetched:
The secret nuclear bunker built as the UK’s last hope - BBC Future


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## Rooter (Feb 24, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter, or keep windows closed and don't go out until all clear sounded.
In case you think this is far fetched:
The secret nuclear bunker built as the UK’s last hope - BBC Future

Click to expand...

I live right by Greenham common, a former US nuclear weapon holding airbase! I know the chap who runs a datacenter out of the former armory and nuclear bunker! Just checking I have his mobile number right!! LOL


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## Smiffy (Feb 24, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter.
		
Click to expand...

I'll go to the 15th at Blackmoor. Ive never hit that poxy green from 190 yards, so Vlad won't stand a chance from 3,500 miles away...


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## Neilds (Feb 24, 2022)

All the talk of sanctions, etc should be turned into actions immediately. 
The sooner that the powers that be start treating Russia the same as North Korea the better.  They should be banned from all sporting competitions, economic summits, etc and treated like the pariahs they are.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

Neilds said:



			All the talk of sanctions, etc should be turned into actions immediately.
The sooner that the powers that be start treating Russia the same as North Korea the better.  They should be banned from all sporting competitions, economic summits, etc and treated like the pariahs they are.
		
Click to expand...

Yep. I'm baffled why it's just a handful of banks and billionaires being targeted. All trade and banking should be stopped until they stop. 
Hopefully, normal Russians will speak up when they have to start queuing for rations again, like they did 30 years ago.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter, or keep windows closed and don't go out until all clear sounded.
In case you think this is far fetched:
The secret nuclear bunker built as the UK’s last hope - BBC Future

Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
In the event of a nuclear war just go to your nearest pub and get brams and list.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			Yep. I'm baffled why it's just a handful of banks and billionaires being targeted. All trade and banking should be stopped until they stop.
Hopefully, normal Russians will speak up when they have to start queuing for rations again, like they did 30 years ago.
		
Click to expand...

sanctions will be ratchetted up significantly later today


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## nickjdavis (Feb 24, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter, or keep windows closed and don't go out until all clear sounded.
In case you think this is far fetched:
The secret nuclear bunker built as the UK’s last hope - BBC Future

Click to expand...

I've got an Anderson shelter in my garden if you think that might help?


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## BiMGuy (Feb 24, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the event of nuclear war go to your nearest fallout shelter, or keep windows closed and don't go out until all clear sounded.
In case you think this is far fetched:
The secret nuclear bunker built as the UK’s last hope - BBC Future

Click to expand...

In the event of a nuclear war. The very best one can hope for is to be evaporated in the initial blast. Anything else is just a sliding scale of how miserable your existence will be until you die.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			sanctions will be ratchetted up significantly later today
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately one particular group have blocked   barring Russia from swift transactions.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

For those that know


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately one particular group have blocked   barring Russia from swift transactions.
		
Click to expand...

Alternatives, already in existence but under-used because of Swift's convenience/dominance, would likely have been utilised. A healthy dose of self-interest was likely involved too!


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Alternatives, already in existence but under-used because of Swift's convenience/dominance, would likely have been utilised. A healthy dose of self-interest was likely involved too!
		
Click to expand...

But didn't they want a joint response.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			But didn't they want a joint response.
		
Click to expand...

Likely to have been 'posturing' that evaporated when it came to the crunch.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

I may be mistaken, but I haven't heard any mention all day of sanctions involving not buying Russia's oil and gas - 30% of their GDP. 
Bizarre that the west will continue to contribute to the funding of the war machine, unless I've got that completely wrong.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 24, 2022)

Still can't believe they haven't been kicked out of the Eurovision song contest yet.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			I may be mistaken, but I haven't heard any mention all day of sanctions involving not buying Russia's oil and gas - 30% of their GDP.
Bizarre that the west will continue to contribute to the funding of the war machine, unless I've got that completely wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Britain imports very little oil or gas from Russia, unfortunately the movement to the east is very reliant hence their inaction on telling sanctions.


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Just noticed on the news sanctions are to include Russias 2nd largest bank.. what's wrong with the largest?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Just noticed on the news sanctions are to include Russias 2nd largest bank.. what's wrong with the largest?
		
Click to expand...

I thought sanctions also included their largest bank, or at least I think I heard it mentioned by Biden from the US perspective


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I thought sanctions also included their largest bank, or at least I think I heard it mentioned by Biden from the US perspective
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the US, this was on the I've need for the UK.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Britain imports very little oil or gas from Russia, unfortunately the movement to the east is very reliant hence their inaction on telling sanctions.
		
Click to expand...

6% of our oil and gas is from Russia, according to a Google search. 
We're probably giving more in trade to the Russians than we are giving in arms and aid to the country they've just invaded. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying, but it seems bizarre to be giving Russia anything at all.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Maybe the US, this was on the I've need for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Just reading through the sanctions the UK has implemented on Sky News page. It says we will be freezing the assets of all major Russian banks. I presume that covers the biggest bank?


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just reading through the sanctions the UK has implemented on Sky News page. It says we will be freezing the assets of all major Russian banks. I presume that covers the biggest bank?
		
Click to expand...

If that were the case why say includes Russia s 2nd largest bank


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2022)

Maybe the biggest bank doesn't have a presence in the UK...?


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Maybe the biggest bank doesn't have a presence in the UK...?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I'm sure a few days ago critic's of the last lot of sanctions were saying why Russias largest bank wasn't included as it had an office opposite the bank of England?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Maybe, but I'm sure a few days ago critic's of the last lot of sanctions were saying why Russias largest bank wasn't included as it had an office opposite the bank of England?
		
Click to expand...

Just read more sources. Interestingly, one says it is immediately freezing assets of all major Russian banks, starting with second largest bank VTB.

Not sure what it means by starting with VTB, yet it says immediately related to all banks. Maybe an admin thing?


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			If that were the case why say includes Russia s 2nd largest bank
		
Click to expand...

Because they were done under the initial sanctions


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## greenone (Feb 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			I may be mistaken, but I haven't heard any mention all day of sanctions involving not buying Russia's oil and gas - 30% of their GDP.
Bizarre that the west will continue to contribute to the funding of the war machine, unless I've got that completely wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Where do you suggest Europe goes to buy alternative gas at short notice? Can it be replaced? Yes but it's not a 2 month job to get a new gas field up and running. And thats before you try and get it past the environmentalists in the current climate.


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## Brads (Feb 24, 2022)

It's bloody me that is suffering sanctions ! Putin the clown has cost me a fortune .

Sociopath lunatic. Send in Edward Fox , see if he can get it right this time , make up for his French failure.


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Because they were done under the initial sanctions
		
Click to expand...

But was there not on the news in the first lot of banking sanctions only 5 banks and I'm sure it was highlighted that Russias largest banknwasnt and that it had offices opposite the BOE?? Unless that news had got it wrong?


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

greenone said:



*Where do you suggest Europe goes to buy alternative gas at short notice?* Can it be replaced? Yes but it's not a 2 month job to get a new gas field up and running. And thats before you try and get it past the environmentalists in the current climate.
		
Click to expand...

Nowhere. We suck it up, ration resources if necessary and do whatever it takes to cut off as much of Putin's war funds as possible.
This isn't just a diplomatic incident anymore.


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			Nowhere. We suck it up, ration resources if necessary and do whatever it takes to cut off as much of Putin's war funds as possible.
This isn't just a diplomatic incident anymore.
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine fracking will be on the cards again


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## greenone (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I'd imagine fracking will be on the cards again
		
Click to expand...

There is plenty of gas left in the North sea, just need the political will to approve the new fields.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

greenone said:



			Where do you suggest Europe goes to buy alternative gas at short notice? Can it be replaced? Yes but it's not a 2 month job to get a new gas field up and running. And thats before you try and get it past the environmentalists in the current climate.
		
Click to expand...

There's going to be a shortage and accept that if the world wants to show these actions have consequences then we will all have to accept the hardships.
There are issues in Russia already and hopefully the insurgency tactics that Ukraine are going to have to adopt will start taking there toll.
It's good to see sanctions being imposed against Belarus as well.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

I hope that trade is going to be tagged onto the sanctions. Our current annual import / export deficit with Russia is £7 billion.




https://assets.publishing.service.g...trade-and-investment-factsheet-2022-02-18.pdf


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 24, 2022)

Glad I’ve got an electric car and a fixed energy tariff for another 16 months. Enjoy!


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			I hope that trade is going to be tagged onto the sanctions. Our current annual import / export deficit with Russia is £7 billion.

View attachment 41422


https://assets.publishing.service.g...trade-and-investment-factsheet-2022-02-18.pdf

Click to expand...

One of the areas covered in the PMs update to the House.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

I just hope it actually gets dealt with.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)




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## GaryK (Feb 24, 2022)

I haven't seen any public condemnation of Pakistan's PM, Imran Kahn, who visited Putin today to discuss strengthening relations between the 2 countries.
On the very day that Russia waged war with Ukraine, and all as if nothing had happened.


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

GaryK said:



			I haven't seen any public condemnation of Pakistan's PM, Imran Kahn, who visited Putin today to discuss strengthening relations between the 2 countries.
On the very day that Russia waged war with Ukraine, and all as if nothing had happened.
		
Click to expand...

Imran Khan is as dodgy as they come

How long until China declare their support for Russia?


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## DanFST (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			Imran Khan is as dodgy as they come

How long until China declare their support for Russia?
		
Click to expand...

Already have.


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Already have.
		
Click to expand...

Oh bugger

I hadn’t heard that


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## Junior (Feb 25, 2022)

Dictatorship versus democracy.   Pause. Rewind. Play.   Sad times.  I never thought I'd see a war in Europe during my lifetime.

The world needs to show Russia (and China) by coming together and freezing assets and doubling down on sanctions ASAP.  The UK sanctions agency (OFSI) has only designated 5 banks and 3 oligarchs (Timchenko and Boris and Igor Rotenberg) so far, which means their assets have been frozen, and funds can't be made available to them.  The proposed package of sanctions include 351 individuals and 27 high profile individuals and entities.  There's been no date regarding when the regulations will come into effect but an announcement is expected today.  

i wish they would hurry up.  We're essentially funding the Russians while they are invading.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			Imran Khan is as dodgy as they come

How long until China declare their support for Russia?
		
Click to expand...




DanFST said:



			Already have.
		
Click to expand...

Which begs the question of who is actually behind this?


----------



## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which begs the question of who is actually behind this?
		
Click to expand...

It’s obvious - brextieers


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

Junior said:



			Dictatorship versus democracy.   Pause. Rewind. Play.   Sad times.  I never thought I'd see a war in Europe during my lifetime.

The world needs to show Russia (and China) by coming together and freezing assets and doubling down on sanctions ASAP.  The UK sanctions agency (OFSI) has only designated 5 banks and 3 oligarchs (Timchenko and Boris and Igor Rotenberg) so far, which means their assets have been frozen, and funds can't be made available to them.  The proposed package of sanctions include 351 individuals and 27 high profile individuals and entities.  There's been no date regarding when the regulations will come into effect but an announcement is expected today. 

i wish they would hurry up.  We're essentially funding the Russians while they are invading.
		
Click to expand...

The new sanctions that can be applied will be done today with legislation on Monday to enable the rest.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The new sanctions that can be applied will be done today with legislation on Monday to enable the rest.
		
Click to expand...

Had a lie in this morning, so Missis T said that the “ SWIFT “ money system. (I honestly don’t know what it is), but she said “a couple of countries are loathe to stop the Russians from using it at the moment”. But Ave not see out on the box, would all countries need to agree to this for it to happen.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which begs the question of who is actually behind this?
		
Click to expand...

The crazy despot Putin.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			Imran Khan is as dodgy as they come

How long until China declare their support for Russia?
		
Click to expand...

The China situation interests me. Before all this really kicked off, I understand Russian troops were stationed on the Chinese border, as they were nervous about what China may do. I think they have a temporary resolution, which has allowed Russia to go full steam ahead into Ukraine, seemingly with Chinese support.

However, does China REALLY want a strong, powerful neighbour in Russia? China have their own personal interests. I'm wondering if China are supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but only because they suspect it will make Russia much weaker (and even the western world). In fact, if Russia start getting battered, could China then come in and finish them off?

It is really difficulty to read anyone in this, it is just like a real world game of Risk or Civilisation.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			The crazy despot Putin.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but one man should not have this much power.
His generals will be loving it, gives them a reason to exist.
So nobody with any influence will confront him sadly.
Ordinary Russians will be devastated by this.
Just a big dog attacking a small dog.
But I fear he has calculated these sanctions into the plan.
So we need a radical plan now.
Maybe ban  them from international trade with the West for 10 yrs minimum.
I don’t know what we can do without hurting ourselves and others that is where he has been very clever.
Our politico’s have been to close to Russia and others for far to long making us dependant on them far to much.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The China situation interests me. Before all this really kicked off, I understand Russian troops were stationed on the Chinese border, as they were nervous about what China may do. I think they have a temporary resolution, which has allowed Russia to go full steam ahead into Ukraine, seemingly with Chinese support.

However, does China REALLY want a strong, powerful neighbour in Russia? China have their own personal interests. I'm wondering if China are supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but only because they suspect it will make Russia much weaker (and even the western world). In fact, if Russia start getting battered, could China then come in and finish them off?

It is really difficulty to read anyone in this, it is just like a real world game of Risk or Civilisation.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it’s good when your opponents start fighting with each other.


----------



## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a lie in this morning, so Missis T said that the “ SWIFT “ money system. (I honestly don’t know what it is), but she said “a couple of countries are loathe to stop the Russians from using it at the moment”. But Ave not see out on the box, would all countries need to agree to this for it to happen.
		
Click to expand...

I believe ALL sanctions are being set as joint decisions between all the western nations, rather than individual nations doing what they like.

Obviously a lot has been made of SWIFT, and I guess if that was the only sanction then it would really hurt Russia. But, given all the other major Sanctions, then would the addition of including SWIFT really hurt them much more relatively? Or, could it actually cause more pain to some western nations, like Germany? 

I guess it is a balancing act. If you scaled sanctions from 1-10, 10 being the most damaging to a country, then you could include SWIFT in the sanctions and have an impact of 10 on Russia. However, the impact on western nations (or some western nations) could be a 7. Whereas, if you didn't include SWIFT, then the impact on Russia might be slightly reduced, say a scale of 9. However, the impact on western nations would only be 4. So, relatively speaking between Russia and the west, the damage is higher to Russia NOT including SWIFT, even though the absolute greatest damage to Russia is by including SWIFT. 

I'm assuming this must be the case, because unlike things like Brexit / Covid, I am pretty sure everyone is fully united against the Russians, and so I am sure the west want to ensure they enforce the most severe sanctions on them, whilst limiting the damage to ourselves


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Junior said:



			Dictatorship versus democracy.   Pause. Rewind. Play.   Sad times.  I never thought I'd see a war in Europe during my lifetime.

The world needs to show Russia (and China) by coming together and freezing assets and doubling down on sanctions ASAP.  The UK sanctions agency (OFSI) has only designated 5 banks and 3 oligarchs (Timchenko and Boris and Igor Rotenberg) so far, which means their assets have been frozen, and funds can't be made available to them.  The proposed package of sanctions include 351 individuals and 27 high profile individuals and entities.  There's been no date regarding when the regulations will come into effect but an announcement is expected today. 

i wish they would hurry up.  We're essentially funding the Russians while they are invading.
		
Click to expand...

We can't overly punish China. Everything is from there or made there. 

We can't massively punish Russian money. A lot of it is involved in our government rightly or wrongly 

It's all a mess.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 25, 2022)

Without wishing to dilute the atrocities playing out at the moment, but I think it's tenuously linked to sanctions but there was mention on Sky Sports this morning that sport needs to do more and every Russian team and national association across all sports need to be banned until Putin leaves Ukraine. Great to see Vettel coming out and saying that even if the F1 goes ahead in Russia later in the year he'll not be driving


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			We can't overly punish China. Everything is from there or made there.

We can't massively punish Russian money. A lot of it is involved in our government rightly or wrongly

It's all a mess.
		
Click to expand...

Yes spot on ,we are in a mess of our own making.
There is to much dependency on other countries here.
It’s like Putin planned this over the years he has outmanovered the west.
We can’t sanction him without hurting ourselves.
He’s very clever.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a lie in this morning, so Missis T said that the “ SWIFT “ money system. (I honestly don’t know what it is), but she said “a couple of countries are loathe to stop the Russians from using it at the moment”. But Ave not see out on the box, would all countries need to agree to this for it to happen.
		
Click to expand...

SWIFT sanctions being blocked by the EU


----------



## greenone (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			We can't overly punish China. Everything is from there or made there.

We can't massively punish Russian money. A lot of it is involved in our government rightly or wrongly

It's all a mess.
		
Click to expand...

The joys of capitalism and everything boiling down to what's best for the bottom line.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Without wishing to dilute the atrocities playing out at the moment, but I think it's tenuously linked to sanctions but there was mention on Sky Sports this morning that sport needs to do more and every Russian team and national association across all sports need to be banned until Putin leaves Ukraine. Great to see Vettel coming out and saying that even if the F1 goes ahead in Russia later in the year he'll not be driving
		
Click to expand...

The final 16 draw for the Europa is at 11. Chance west ham could get spartak moscow..

Would Europa let it be played there? Or let Moscow travel?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

greenone said:



			The joys of capitalism and everything boiling down to what's best for the bottom line.
		
Click to expand...

I read earlier that Europa has bought more gas from Russia today .. 

So much for cutting them off 

We need them more than they need us unfortunately


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## IanM (Feb 25, 2022)

"Its all our fault" mantra deployed! 

Never mind. Champions League final moved to Paris.  That'll stop those Russians!


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The final 16 draw for the Europa is at 11. Chance west ham could get spartak moscow..

Would Europa let it be played there? Or let Moscow travel?
		
Click to expand...

I'd back the Inter City Firm to take Moscow.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			We can't overly punish China. Everything is from there or made there.

We can't massively punish Russian money. A lot of it is involved in our government rightly or wrongly

It's all a mess.
		
Click to expand...

One problem I see is that many European Countries rely greatly on Russian Oil and Gas, if there are no financial transactions available to Russia why would they continue to supply it without payment.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'd back the Inter City Firm to take Moscow.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think at their age they could take the post office anymore


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			One problem I see is that many European Countries rely greatly on Russian Oil and Gas, if there are no financial transactions available to Russia why would they continue to supply it without payment.
		
Click to expand...

Putin can turn off the gas whenever he wants , China will buy from him

People think the cost of living is up now


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

IanM said:



			"Its all our fault" mantra deployed! 

Never mind. Champions League final moved to Paris.  That'll stop those Russians!
		
Click to expand...

Well in view of the fact that UEFA are a bit light on fighter planes and tank divisions there isn’t a lot more they can do. 

It’s a darn sight better than doing nothing.


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## greenone (Feb 25, 2022)

IanM said:



			"Its all our fault" mantra deployed! 

Click to expand...

There have been plenty of warnings in the last 10 years or so.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well in view of the fact that UEFA are a bit light on fighter planes and tank divisions there isn’t a lot more they can do.

It’s a darn sight better than doing nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Considering UK planes banned from Russia airspace would be hard to get there aswell lol


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well in view of the fact that UEFA are a bit light on fighter planes and tank divisions there isn’t a lot more they can do.

It’s a darn sight better than doing nothing.
		
Click to expand...

I think there is a lot that sport governing bodies across the globe can do, personally.

Russia (and China too, it might be a trait of communism) take great pride in their sporting "achievements" (I use that phrase lightly considering the history of doping, proven or otherwise) and their teams etc. As do the people.

UEFA moving to ban Russian teams from sanctioned competitions, FIFA moving to ban Russian players from playing in any sanctioned competition (remember UEFA were going to do this to players that played in the mooted ESL, so apparently it can be done) and then it starts to bite in to the Russian populace (I realise they are largely innocent in this, but this is not the time for niceties IMO).

IOC could move to remove recognition of the ROC completely and prevent competing in sanctioned events, just like football.

Along with financial sanctions that will bite in to the Russian population more than it will the leaders, there is a large space opened up in the narrative for "drive revolt from within".

Of course, this is just the ramblings of a bloke on a golf forum.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I think there is a lot that sport governing bodies across the globe can do, personally.

Russia (and China too, it might be a trait of communism) take great pride in their sporting "achievements" (I use that phrase lightly considering the history of doping, proven or otherwise) and their teams etc. As do the people.

UEFA moving to ban Russian teams from sanctioned competitions, FIFA moving to ban Russian players from playing in any sanctioned competition (remember UEFA were going to do this to players that played in the mooted ESL, so apparently it can be done) and then it starts to bite in to the Russian populace (I realise they are largely innocent in this, but this is not the time for niceties IMO).

IOC could move to remove recognition of the ROC completely and prevent competing in sanctioned events, just like football.

Along with financial sanctions that will bite in to the Russian population more than it will the leaders, there is a large space opened up in the narrative for "drive revolt from within".

Of course, this is just the ramblings of a bloke on a golf forum.
		
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I wouldn’t necessarily disagree that they could do more, I was responding to the inference I drew than they’d done nothing.  They’ve made a start and I’d hope they do more.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			...so Missis T said that the “ SWIFT “ money system. (I honestly don’t know what it is), ....
		
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Literally, Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication. It's the dominant way that banks make and/or receive payments to/from banks in other countries. Set up in the 1970s as a co-operative, so international transactions could not be 'controlled' by any specific commercial organisation.
It's the protocal and infrastructure equivalent to the one that allows you to make a funds transfer between your UK account and an account in a different UK bank.
It's the way I've sent or received funds to/from New Zealand, simply providing the destination Swift Bank Id along with the destination Account details.


----------



## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I think there is a lot that sport governing bodies across the globe can do, personally.

Russia (and China too, it might be a trait of communism) take great pride in their sporting "achievements" (I use that phrase lightly considering the history of doping, proven or otherwise) and their teams etc. As do the people.

UEFA moving to ban Russian teams from sanctioned competitions, FIFA moving to ban Russian players from playing in any sanctioned competition (remember UEFA were going to do this to players that played in the mooted ESL, so apparently it can be done) and then it starts to bite in to the Russian populace (I realise they are largely innocent in this, but this is not the time for niceties IMO).

IOC could move to remove recognition of the ROC completely and prevent competing in sanctioned events, just like football.

Along with financial sanctions that will bite in to the Russian population more than it will the leaders, there is a large space opened up in the narrative for "drive revolt from within".

Of course, this is just the ramblings of a bloke on a golf forum.
		
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Does Putin actually give a toss about his fellow Russians, after all he’s made himself untouchable so it’s not like they can vote him out


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wouldn’t necessarily disagree that they could do more, I was responding to the inference I drew than they’d done nothing.  They’ve made a start and I’d hope they do more.
		
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Agree. I was just rambling off on a tangent about what that more could be.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			Does Putin actually give a toss about his fellow Russians, after all he’s made himself untouchable so it’s not like they can vote him out
		
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No he doesn't, which is why I used the word "revolt". No leader, however "untouchable" is immune from mass revolt. I mean, it's been a while since Russia had a good revolution.


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			No he doesn't, which is why I used the word "revolt". No leader, however "untouchable" is immune from mass revolt. I mean, it's been a while since Russia had a good revolution.
		
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I guess if there’s dissent amongst the army etc then it’s possible


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The final 16 draw for the Europa is at 11. Chance west ham could get spartak moscow..

Would Europa let it be played there? Or let Moscow travel?
		
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I believe UEFA have announced that all Ukranian and Russian teams (clubs and national teams) must play at neutral venues instead of in their own country.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wouldn’t necessarily disagree that they could do more, I was responding to the inference I drew than they’d done nothing.  They’ve made a start and I’d hope they do more.
		
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We need to get tough with Putin and Abramovich is one of his muckers.

Take Chelsea off him I say, disband the club and divvy the players up to other PL clubs for free I say. Chilwell, Mount and Broja for us would do.


Top statesman me.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			We need to get tough with Putin and Abramovich is one of his muckers.

Take Chelsea off him I say, disband the club and divvy the players up to other PL clubs for free I say. Chilwell, Mount and Broja for us would do.


Top statesman me.

Click to expand...

Sounds a very fair deal to me 

Not too gready either


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			We need to get tough with Putin and Abramovich is one of his muckers.

Take Chelsea off him I say, disband the club and divvy the players up to other PL clubs for free I say. Chilwell, Mount and Broja for us would do.


Top statesman me.

Click to expand...

I heard that the UK have voted to seize all of Abramovich's assets, except Lukaku


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Sounds a very fair deal to me

Not too gready either
		
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Exactly, let Spurs take Lukaku.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Exactly, let Spurs take Lukaku.

Click to expand...

He’s still too good for Spurs.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 25, 2022)

Lucky escape 😱


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497149377990832131


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## Neilds (Feb 25, 2022)

Not sure if this should be in this thread or Random Irritations, but here goes:

Really makes me annoyed with all the virtue signalling by 'celebs' making comments about the Ukraine situation but obviously making it about them.  For example, Paddy McGuinness couldn't sleep worrying, Nicola Adams is extra worried as she is due to become a parent soon and Holly Willoughby is worried about how she will tell her kids what is happening. FGS!!!!


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## Ser Shankalot (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Putin can turn off the gas whenever he wants , China will buy from him

People think the cost of living is up now
		
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Maybe in the longer term, but there isn't enough pipeline capacity to shift that much gas to China in the short term. Also the national mechanisms of payment that China and Russia have developed aren't anywhere near as large as SWIFT. It would definitely hurt Russia across their entire economy, but depends if Germany/Italy and others want to bear the pain as well.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Not sure if this should be in this thread or Random Irritations, but here goes:

Really makes me annoyed with all the virtue signalling by 'celebs' making comments about the Ukraine situation but obviously making it about them.  For example, Paddy McGuinness couldn't sleep worrying, Nicola Adams is extra worried as she is due to become a parent soon and Holly Willoughby is worried about how she will tell her kids what is happening. FGS!!!!
		
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Does it only matter if it's close to home then? What did people do when we went to the war on terror .. that's only just ended really....


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## Neilds (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Does it only matter if it's close to home then? What did people do when we went to the war on terror .. that's only just ended really....
		
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Nothing to do with where the conflict is, it is the fact they they 'need' to be seen to be making a comment


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			...I mean, it's been a while since Russia had a _good revolution_.
		
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Or even a bad one!


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## BiMGuy (Feb 25, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Nothing to do with where the conflict is, it is the fact they they 'need' to be seen to be making a comment
		
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Is it any different to any of us making comment on here? Maybe they were asked!


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## stefanovic (Feb 25, 2022)

So many people here taking all this lightly while playing for likes and failing to understand that the guy in the Kremlin is a nut who is more than likely making decisions while under the influence and has his sole finger on a nuclear button which can't be overturned as elsewhere in the world, should take note.

https://www.ready.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/ready_nuclear-explosion_fact-sheet_0.pdf

Take it seriously and don't give me likes.
I remember how close we came to midnight in the Cuban missile crisis in 1962.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			So many people here taking all this lightly while playing for likes and failing to understand that the guy in the Kremlin is a nut who is more than likely making decisions while under the influence and has his sole finger on a nuclear button which can't be overturned as elsewhere in the world, should take note.

https://www.ready.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/ready_nuclear-explosion_fact-sheet_0.pdf

Take it seriously and don't give me likes.
I remember how close we came to midnight in the Cuban missile crisis in 1962.
		
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I don't think ANYONE is taking this lightly. What are you expecting us to do. Arm up and go to Ukraine? I think most of us seem supportive in the west taking as severe an approach as they can on Russia.


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## Smiffy (Feb 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			So many people here taking all this lightly while playing for likes and failing to understand that the guy in the Kremlin is a nut who is more than likely making decisions while under the influence and has his sole finger on a nuclear button.
		
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I've got two options.
Sit here and worry myself poopless over it, or laugh about it.
Neither will make it go away but I'd rather go out with a smile on my face than 💩 my pants.
Plus, I don't need any more worry lines.


----------



## Junior (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a lie in this morning, so Missis T said that the “ SWIFT “ money system. (I honestly don’t know what it is), but she said “a couple of countries are loathe to stop the Russians from using it at the moment”. But Ave not see out on the box, would all countries need to agree to this for it to happen.
		
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Yes, they also removed Iran from it when sanctions were implemented and it crippled them economically as its the main system for moving money around the world.  It would hurt Russia, but it was also hurt companies/countries receiving money from those Russia entities who do not have sanctions imposed against them.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			So many people here taking all this lightly while playing for likes and failing to understand that the guy in the Kremlin is a nut who is more than likely making decisions while under the influence and has his sole finger on a nuclear button which can't be overturned as elsewhere in the world, should take note.

https://www.ready.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/ready_nuclear-explosion_fact-sheet_0.pdf

Take it seriously and don't give me likes.
I remember how close we came to midnight in the Cuban missile crisis in 1962.
		
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So, what exactly are you doing about it?


----------



## Smiffy (Feb 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I remember how close we came to midnight in the Cuban missile crisis in 1962.
		
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That'll make you an old fart then???
Good, they need some new players.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			That'll make you an old fart then???
Good, they need some new players.
		
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He'll forget to turn up - he sounds older than me!


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

just watching the news conference from the Russian ministry of foreign affairs - i am not sure how the spokesperson can keep a straight face while answering


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

chrisd said:



			He'll forget to turn up - *he sounds older than me*!
		
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i don't think that's possible mate


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			i don't think that's possible mate
		
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Be fair mate  - this forum has Leftie and Rosecott, both old enough to be my dad (whoever he was)


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## Billysboots (Feb 25, 2022)

Anyone who thinks Putin is nuts (and he clearly is), needs to turn on Sky News right now and watch Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova taking questions from the world’s media.

She takes being scarily bonkers to a whole new level.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			just watching the news conference from the Russian ministry of foreign affairs - i am not sure how the spokesperson can keep a straight face while answering
		
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An AK 47 pointed at your loved ones tends to focus the mind I would imagine 😳


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...the guy in the Kremlin is a nut who is more than likely making decisions while under the influence and has his sole finger on a nuclear button which can't be overturned as elsewhere in the world...
		
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What a load of drivel!
Putin may be a megalomaniac, but not 'nuts'!


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Anyone who thinks Putin is nuts (and he clearly is), needs to turn on Sky News right now and watch Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova taking questions from the world’s media.

She takes being scarily bonkers to a whole new level.
		
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she was so scatty it was actually quite funny with all her deflecting


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## Tashyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of drivel!
		
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Missis T has had her hair done today, the hairdresser was telling her that a woman was in a couple of days ago and she has heard that there is 3 clones of Putin 😳 
I have no proof of that but I think that could be drivel as well.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T has had her hair done today, the hairdresser was telling her that a woman was in a couple of days ago and she has heard that there is 3 clones of Putin 😳
I have no proof of that but I think that could be drivel as well.
		
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Good story though! 
Perhaps derived from POTUS's '3 helicopters' strategy.


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T has had her hair done today, the hairdresser was telling her that a woman was in a couple of days ago and she has heard that there is 3 clones of Putin 😳
I have no proof of that but I think that could be drivel as well.
		
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does she also think that the Queen is a shape shifting lizard?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

🤬🤬🤬
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-...after-military-vehicle-runs-over-car-12551231


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			🤬🤬🤬
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-...after-military-vehicle-runs-over-car-12551231

Click to expand...

Looks like 2 separate vids of the squishing(s?). Land and roads look different too!


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Looks like 2 separate vids of the squishing(s?). Land and roads look different too!
		
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I think it only appears that way because the first video is at a very shallow angle from the building. I'm guessing Sky would not be so quick to verify the videos if they were of different incidents?


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## Crazyface (Feb 25, 2022)

Had a chat with me mum this morning about all this, well she brought it up, and the blokes who attended the bridge club yesterday were actually on Putins side. They said that the USA had their noses in the Ukraine trough, and virtually every trough in the world and had to be stopped. Now I don't know about this, but if it's true you kinda see where Putins coming from.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 25, 2022)

🚨BREAKING🚨: Russia threatens Sweden & Finalnd with "military and political consequences" if they join NATO.

He's completely crackers 🤯


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think it only appears that way because the first video is at a very shallow angle from the building. I'm guessing Sky would not be so quick to verify the videos if they were of different incidents?
		
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Check the contours of the land though. 1st vid indicates zig-zag paved area, as in car parking area. 2nd shows consistent grass.
I agree with your comment about re Sky's verification. 2 incidents would make it worse!! Pleased to see 'victim' survived.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 25, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			🚨BREAKING🚨: Russia threatens Sweden & Finalnd with "military and political consequences" if they join NATO.

He's completely crackers 🤯
		
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Breaking 5 years ago... But yes he's mental.


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## rosecott (Feb 25, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Be fair mate  - this forum has Leftie and Rosecott, both old enough to be my dad (whoever he was)
		
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Can't be me - I've had the snip.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of drivel!
Putin may be a megalomaniac, but not 'nuts'!
		
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Maybe Putin is suffering from early stage dementia being a man of 69 years young? mixed with a personality trait of resentful narcissism.

This combination makes him essentially dangerous to himself and problematic. 

This is what the Sun or Daily Mail newspapers like to describe as 'Mad'. Something their readers can get their teeth into. Nuance not being appreciated.


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## Smiffy (Feb 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T has had her hair done today, the hairdresser was telling her that a woman was in a couple of days ago and she has heard that there is 3 clones of Putin 😳
		
Click to expand...

That'll be "Right said Fred" then


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Check the contours of the land though. 1st vid indicates zig-zag paved area, as in car parking area. 2nd shows consistent grass.
I agree with your comment about re Sky's verification. 2 incidents would make it worse!! Pleased to see 'victim' survived.
		
Click to expand...

In the first video, the zig zag area (beneath the car) is actually the roof of a building, much closer to the camera than the car. Initially I thought it was right next to the car, but on closer inspection it looks like a building roof.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

Major DDoS attacks being launched globally against the Kremlin and two of Russia's biggest banks. I think this will be a continued trend in retaliation for Russia's cyber attacks on Ukraine that goes back to late last year. 

A lot of this fight is going to be hidden from view methinks.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			In the first video, the zig zag area (beneath the car) is actually the roof of a building, much closer to the camera than the car. Initially I thought it was right next to the car, but on closer inspection it looks like a building roof.
		
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Aah.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Major DDoS attacks being launched globally against the Kremlin and two of Russia's biggest banks. I think this will be a continued trend in retaliation for Russia's cyber attacks on Ukraine that goes back to late last year.

A lot of this fight is going to be hidden from view methinks.
		
Click to expand...

All sorts of cyber attacks have been going on for years - and the 1st priority of them is to be 'under the radar'.


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## Smiffy (Feb 25, 2022)

Should I pay the final balance for our planned Kefalonia trip in June?
🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			All sorts of cyber attacks have been going on for years - and the 1st priority of them is to be 'under the radar'.
		
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Yes, I realise this. But these are not "under the radar" in fact, furthest from it.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Can't be me - I've had the snip.
		
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Probably needed to use a pair of bolt croppers !


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			One problem I see is that many European Countries rely greatly on Russian Oil and Gas, if there are no financial transactions available to Russia why would they continue to supply it without payment.
		
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The West and Europe need to grow a pair. If going short of oil and gas helps towards bringing down a regime who's next move will be Moldova and then who knows then so be it. Put a jumper on and suck it up.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I believe UEFA have announced that all Ukranian and Russian teams (clubs and national teams) must play at neutral venues instead of in their own country.
		
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Shows the moral compass has finally gone in football. All Russian teams need kicking out and if China allows them to compete in the Para Olympics then the rest of the world should boycott the games.


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## greenone (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Shows the moral compass has finally gone in football. All Russian teams need kicking out and if China allows them to compete in the Para Olympics then the rest of the world should boycott the games.
		
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I believe it's the IPC not China to make the decision. China aren't going to bar them.

I wonder what the repercussions will be for breaking the Olympic truce?


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## spongebob59 (Feb 25, 2022)

Russia kicked out of Eurovision, that'll show em 😂


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 25, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Russia kicked out of Eurovision, that'll show em 😂
		
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Think that alone could bring Putin to his senses and retreat so that they can be reinstated.

If not does it imply that The UK cannot be last as Russia fwere an original contestant?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Can't be me - I've had the snip.
		
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80 years ago?


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Russia kicked out of Eurovision, that'll show em 😂
		
Click to expand...

Can’t we threaten to send them Katie Price and Gemma Collins if they don’t withdraw


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## spongebob59 (Feb 25, 2022)

Dando said:



			Can’t we threaten to send them Katie Price and Gemma Collins if they don’t withdraw
		
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😱🤯


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The West and Europe need to grow a pair. If going short of oil and gas helps towards bringing down a regime who's next move will be Moldova and then who knows then so be it. Put a jumper on and suck it up.
		
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It could be a darn site more than putting on a jumper if their oil and gas supplies are cut off.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 25, 2022)

A good advisory for when dealing with imagery and information via Social Media platforms - never more than since the mass adoption of Social Media has the phrase "seeing is believing" been so redundant. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60528276

The same advice regarding Nation State cyber activity was also played back to me and my colleagues in Cybersecurity for one of the world's biggest banks by our cyber analysts. 

Try to verify what you are seeing before blindly re-posting it.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It could be a darn site more than putting on a jumper if their oil and gas supplies are cut off.
		
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Nobody said it was going to be easy. As our  parents and grandparents managed 10 years if shortages to defeat a despot perhaps we should learn from them.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody said it was going to be easy. As our  parents and grandparents managed 10 years if shortages to defeat a despot perhaps we should learn from them.
		
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Completely different world. Can't even compare how much it would crusify the economy etc.

Covid would be small fry compared.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Completely different world. Can't even compare how much it would crusify the economy etc.

Covid would be small fry compared.
		
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So we just let Russia and in the future China do as they wish.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			So we just let Russia and in the future do as they wish.
		
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Because it’s that binary of a decision 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

F1 have cancelled the Russian Grand Prix.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60523049


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			F1 have cancelled the Russian Grand Prix.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60523049

Click to expand...

Massi has awarded the “win” to verstappen


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## Swango1980 (Feb 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			A good advisory for when dealing with imagery and information via Social Media platforms - never more than since the mass adoption of Social Media has the phrase "seeing is believing" been so redundant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60528276

The same advice regarding Nation State cyber activity was also played back to me and my colleagues in Cybersecurity for one of the world's biggest banks by our cyber analysts.

Try to verify what you are seeing before blindly re-posting it.
		
Click to expand...

Very true. My default mode is that I believe NOTHING I see on social media. Some memes are obviously rubbish, but others are better done and could easily fool someone.

If they appear on BBC or Sky, and definitely multiple of these platforms, I'll pay more attention. Only because I feel they will do due diligence in fact checking, and if they didn't then they'd lose all credibility as soon as they are called put for sharing fake news.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			So we just let Russia and in the future China do as they wish.
		
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No, not really.  We need to build up immunity to them and should have started long before now.  I've thought it a very bad policy for some time to rely heavily on a country like China for technology and manufactured goods. We should be more self reliant and return to a manufacturing economy, things may be more expensive but that would be offset somewhat by creating better paid jobs in manufacturing while reducing our balance of trade deficit.

I'm all for making Russia suffer and the UK playing  a part in the international effort to do so, but it's not a short term policy and Putin needs to Understand that his barbaric actions will hurt his country unless he reverses his actions and falls into line with what's acceptable.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 25, 2022)

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/eu...sia-raises-the-stakes-in-ukraine-5129043.html


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No, not really.  We need to build up immunity to them and should have started long before now.  I've thought it a very bad policy for some time to rely heavily on a country like China for technology and manufactured goods. We should be more self reliant and return to a manufacturing economy, things may be more expensive but that would be offset somewhat by creating better paid jobs in manufacturing while reducing our balance of trade deficit.

I'm all for making Russia suffer and the UK playing  a part in the international effort to do so, but it's not a short term policy and Putin needs to Understand that his barbaric actions will hurt his country unless he reverses his actions and falls into line with what's acceptable.
		
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I've said it for years our government (not just current or the previous but all) is set up for short term thinking.

Whenever a change at the top a new direction is taken, ripping up old policy

For example the energy crisis. Poorly maintained and not replaced storage for gas supplies .. could really have helped to have some storage. Doesn't take a genius to work that one

Another one is solar panels, you can look at the failings to get nuclear on sure footing and replaced in a timely maner however how many roofs are there In the UK? Should have doubled down and really invested in them to reduce the need to import as much electric

Elon musk was saying if you had 100 square mile of panels in the Texas desert with just 1 square mile of battery storage it would provide enough electric for the entire USA

How much would you need here? Plenty of roofs

Instead as soon as we see off covid (even tho it's still here) we rip up green policy to save money when really it's our best bet on being more finically stable

(Ps mods have tried to keep this factual not political)


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## tugglesf239 (Feb 25, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Lucky escape 😱


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497149377990832131

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That’s possibly the booster unit. 

The warhead separated prior to this hitting the deck.


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## phillarrow (Feb 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No, not really.  We need to build up immunity to them and should have started long before now.  I've thought it a very bad policy for some time to rely heavily on a country like China for technology and manufactured goods. We should be more self reliant and return to a manufacturing economy, things may be more expensive but that would be offset somewhat by creating better paid jobs in manufacturing while reducing our balance of trade deficit.

I'm all for making Russia suffer and the UK playing  a part in the international effort to do so, but it's not a short term policy and Putin needs to Understand that his barbaric actions will hurt his country unless he reverses his actions and falls into line with what's acceptable.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			I've said it for years our government (not just current or the previous but all) is set up for short term thinking.

Whenever a change at the top a new direction is taken, ripping up old policy

For example the energy crisis. Poorly maintained and not replaced storage for gas supplies .. could really have helped to have some storage. Doesn't take a genius to work that one

Another one is solar panels, you can look at the failings to get nuclear on sure footing and replaced in a timely maner however how many roofs are there In the UK? Should have doubled down and really invested in them to reduce the need to import as much electric

Elon musk was saying if you had 100 square mile of panels in the Texas desert with just 1 square mile of battery storage it would provide enough electric for the entire USA

How much would you need here? Plenty of roofs

Instead as soon as we see off covid (even tho it's still here) we rip up green policy to save money when really it's our best bet on being more finically stable

(Ps mods have tried to keep this factual not political)
		
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Hear hear - from both of you. I think you're both absolutely spot on. 

Our dependence on non-democratic countries with whom we have fractious relations puts us at risk and makes it really hard to take meaningful action at a time like this. 

And, one of the difficulties with a democratic system that can see the government changed every four years is that it's really hard for them to make long-term decisions. They have no choice but to try to make short-term, popular decisions. 
Personally, I'd like to see issues like health, education, and energy taken out of the hands of the sitting government and made cross-party issues so that long-term benefits can be prioritised. 

(Mods - I'm new here. This is about the democratic system, not any particular party. I hope that's okay?)


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've said it for years our government (not just current or the previous but all) is set up for short term thinking.

Whenever a change at the top a new direction is taken, ripping up old policy

For example the energy crisis. Poorly maintained and not replaced storage for gas supplies .. could really have helped to have some storage. Doesn't take a genius to work that one

Another one is solar panels, you can look at the failings to get nuclear on sure footing and replaced in a timely maner however how many roofs are there In the UK? Should have doubled down and really invested in them to reduce the need to import as much electric

Elon musk was saying if you had 100 square mile of panels in the Texas desert with just 1 square mile of battery storage it would provide enough electric for the entire USA

How much would you need here? Plenty of roofs

Instead as soon as we see off covid (even tho it's still here) we rip up green policy to save money when really it's our best bet on being more finically stable

(Ps mods have tried to keep this factual not political)
		
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Our problem is WE want cheap and don't care where it comes from. Time to get realistic and pay the going rate for things that are and can be produced here.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.stripes.com/theaters/eu...sia-raises-the-stakes-in-ukraine-5129043.html

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Been naff-all use though! Simply 'observing'! Oh and a bit of 'Rah Rah Isn't US great' propagana for domestic consumption!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Our problem is WE want cheap and don't care where it comes from. Time to get realistic and pay the going rate for things that are and can be produced here.
		
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Greed from companies goes a long way

Xiaomi for example do all kinds of tech. Their margin is 5% profit ... Go for pure sales rather than rake in profit from less sales 

Sometimes cheaper is better. Like sky if they lowered their prices to somewhere less rip off for what it is would have more people pay it and less go down streaming routes


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Our problem is WE want cheap and don't care where it comes from. Time to get realistic and pay the going rate for things that are and can be produced here.
		
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Yes absolutely, it's what I also posted.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Greed from companies goes a long way

Xiaomi for example do all kinds of tech. Their margin is 5% profit ... Go for pure sales rather than rake in profit from less sales

Sometimes cheaper is better. Like sky if they lowered their prices to somewhere less rip off for what it is would have more people pay it and less go down streaming routes
		
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It's not just companies greed, we have to accept some responsibility.


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## tugglesf239 (Feb 26, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			It's not just companies greed, we have to accept some responsibility.
		
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I do I agree. However we are left with few alternatives for UK / US / EU made goods.

China has the world by the kahunas currently and europe Just does not have the industry’s anymore.

Largely because it was cheaper back then just to shut them down and import cheap crap.

This issues we have now are 80 years in the making.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No, not really.  We need to build up immunity to them and should have started long before now.  *I've thought it a very bad policy for some time to rely heavily on a country like China for technology and manufactured goods. *We should be more self reliant and return to a manufacturing economy, things may be more expensive but that would be offset somewhat by creating better paid jobs in manufacturing while reducing our balance of trade deficit.
...
		
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UK is at a disadvantage in manufactured goods purely because of the limited size of the country - which makes it more expensive to produce the goods. Its lowest level of pay is still relatively high, so 'sweat shop' environments are relatively rare.
Far better for it to be 'high technology'/specialist high margin oriented than high volume, low margin oriented imo. Distribution costs, while low within UK, are greater for exports than many countries, simply because of geography!


SocketRocket said:



			...
I'm all for making Russia suffer and the UK playing  a part in the international effort to do so, but it's not a short term policy and Putin needs to Understand that his barbaric actions will hurt his country unless he reverses his actions and falls into line with what's acceptable.
		
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I agree. But there is likely to be considerable short term pain for UK in doing so. The 'dependence' of Europe, including UK, on Russia's Oil and Gas reserves is a considerable 'weapon' for Russia! The North Sea production and reserves are nowhere their amount.


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## DanFST (Feb 26, 2022)

Blocking swift isn't a huge deal long term. 

It will force upgrade SPFS, and the will be allowed to use CIPS.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			UK is at a disadvantage in manufactured goods purely because of the limited size of the country - which makes it more expensive to produce the goods. Its lowest level of pay is still relatively high, so 'sweat shop' environments are relatively rare.
Far better for it to be 'high technology'/specialist high margin oriented than high volume, low margin oriented imo. Distribution costs, while low within UK, are greater for exports than many countries, simply because of geography!

I agree. But there is likely to be considerable short term pain for UK in doing so. The 'dependence' of Europe, including UK, on Russia's Oil and Gas reserves is a considerable 'weapon' for Russia! The North Sea production and reserves are nowhere their amount.
		
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The UK was and is quite capable of producing many of the things they import from China, including textiles, engineered components, tooling, electrical/electronic goods etc.  They may cost more to make but as I have previously explained much of that would be offset by the employment/tax revenue/savings in state benefits by the employment created.   It has been done before and is still done by small countries.   As I also explained, we should have started this year's ago.  The other benefit is the creation of meaningful jobs for people which helps to improve morale and well being.  Just look to Germany for an example.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Blocking swift isn't a huge deal long term.

It will force upgrade SPFS, and the will be allowed to use CIPS.
		
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The technology isn't the problem. The bigger problem, for Russia, would/will be getting countries to allow their banks to participate. I hardly think USA would do so. And not just for the 'allowing Russian Banks international financial transactions' reason.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK was and is quite capable of producing many of the things they import from China, including textiles, engineered components, tooling, electrical/electronic goods etc.  They may cost more to make but as I have previously explained much of that would be offset by the employment/tax revenue/savings in state benefits by the employment created.   It has been done before and is still done by small countries.
		
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I don't disagree. It's just better, imo, to optimise the 'high technology' benefits that UK also has. Singapore and Japan have been very successful with that approach.
Germany has a couple of advantages...A reboot of its infrastructure after WW2 and only about 80% of UK's population density


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## RichA (Feb 26, 2022)

Maybe we need to stop buying cheap crap and start buying decent quality stuff that costs a little more but lasts longer.


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## phillarrow (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK was and is quite capable of producing many of the things they import from China, including textiles, engineered components, tooling, electrical/electronic goods etc.  They may cost more to make but as I have previously explained much of that would be offset by the employment/tax revenue/savings in state benefits by the employment created.   It has been done before and is still done by small countries.   As I also explained, we should have started this year's ago.  The other benefit is the creation of meaningful jobs for people which helps to improve morale and well being.  Just look to Germany for an example.
		
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I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly, but it doesn't have to be done solely in Britain. The democratic west, as a whole, needs to end our reliance on China and Russia and rebuild our manufacturing industries, with a commitment to purchase from each other instead of the far East. 
We also need to further our commitment to ending our reliance on gas and oil. 

Yes, prices will go up but as you say, these will be worth it for the other benefits such a move would bring to our societies - generational unemployment has been devastating in many communities and it could be ended quite quickly. 

The benefits to the environment of reduced transportation of goods would also be huge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly, but it doesn't have to be done solely in Britain. The democratic west, as a whole, needs to end our reliance on China and Russia and rebuild our manufacturing industries, with a commitment to purchase from each other instead of the far East.
We also need to further our commitment to ending our reliance on gas and oil.

Yes, prices will go up but as you say, these will be worth it for the other benefits such a move would bring to our societies - generational unemployment has been devastating in many communities and it could be ended quite quickly.

The benefits to the environment of reduced transportation of goods would also be huge.
		
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There is much that could be said in respect of your thoughts on renewables and transportation, but that would step over the P-line and so will have to be left unsaid. But I can agree with your comments in a general way.


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## ExRabbit (Feb 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is much that could be said in respect of your thoughts on renewables and transportation, *but that would step over the P-line and so will have to be left unsaid.* But I can agree with your comments in a general way.
		
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FFS give it a rest!  How many times do you have to let it be unsaid, whilst at the same time letting us know what you really think??


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## BiMGuy (Feb 26, 2022)

Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?
		
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I was assuming making all these changes would be as simple as typing a post on a forum to say it should happen.

Are you suggesting it might be a bit more complicated than that?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?
		
Click to expand...

In rapid form, we could mfr everything that is currently made in China, after all we used to before it was transferred out there. Build them anywhere you like, plenty of brownfield sites, plenty of councils would roll out the red carpet for you. Labour, everywhere.

The next three are the real problems. No one is going to set up a factory, invest in machinery, employ people etc on a wing and a prayer. Build it and they will come, doesn't work in business, as Kev partially found out. Goods will cost more, costs to mfr are far greater than in China so you are asking the consumer to pay more, let's say 20% as a hypothetical figure, and history shows that people generally lean towards a lower priced figure. If you want mfrs here to stand a chance then it will need the govt to place significant tariffs on imports to level up their prices. Tariffs equal a trade war plus inflation, never popular with govts.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.

(I'm guessing you know all of the above but I thought it may be useful for those not in this area of work to expand on your points. You may well disagree on my first 3 points, I get that, but I stand by them)


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## phillarrow (Feb 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?

Electronics, clothing, white goods. You know, the stuff we currently import from the far east.

Where would all the factories be built?

Between Europe and America, there's quite a lot of space!

Where is all the labour coming from?

The millions of unemployed across the western world. When the jobs are created, the level and extent of income support for unemployed people would come down. Eventually, people would have no option but to take the jobs that are there.

How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?

As much as it costs! Or, carry on buying cheap imported crap, rely on these regimes that western governments feel are rotten and corrupt, and then keep our fingers crossed that Russia stops at Ukraine, that China doesn't feel emboldened to go into Taiwan, that these countries whose governments clearly despise the west, don't use our reliance against us. Not much of a plan as it turns out!

How long will it take to get us up and running?

Depends how committed we are to it but it can be done within 5-10 years of we are. It only takes a few months to build a factory.

And who will buy our goods?

Strange question - the same people who currently buy the imported goods from the far East? In talking about a multi-national manufacturing and purchasing agreement.
		
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Answers above. Nobody has said it will be easy or quick, but it is possible and if we don't end our reliance upon these states, we can too easily held to ransom by them, which then makes it hard to prevent what we're currently seeing.

Edit:To save any daft responses, when I say "Between Europe and America..." I don't mean in-between! 😉 I mean if you add them together! 👍


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.
		
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problem then comes with the people who shop at Asda from the off etc etc , how do they then adjust to the squeeze


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			problem then comes with the people who shop at Asda from the off etc etc , how do they then adjust to the squeeze
		
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The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it?  The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.


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## phillarrow (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it?  The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.
		
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Or fixing them instead of replacing them. 👍 And with the new laws about right to repair, this has become easier. In itself, there is another new/old job sector that can be re-established.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it?  The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.
		
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Yes I agree with what you say .
But isn’t it mainly about Tax most manufacturing went abroad so they can pay poverty wages to the workers.
Here we are taxed until the pips squeak that’s why we don’t have any manufacturing left.
Most tech firms don’t pay their taxes as they are global and have very clever accounting.
Just look at the taxes on petrol as an example.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I agree with what you say .
But isn’t it mainly about Tax most manufacturing went abroad so they can pay poverty wages to the workers.
Here we are taxed until the pips squeak that’s why we don’t have any manufacturing left.
Most tech firms don’t pay their taxes as they are global and have very clever accounting.
Just look at the taxes on petrol as an example.
		
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Tax is a part of it but not all. Wages are a massive part, various costs but yes tax as well. Environmental taxes (and rules), energy costs, business rates, NI etc all add up and are miniscule in China in comparison.

There is a reason why most mfr follows a low labour wage though, sadly.

Multi nationals could still mfr in the UK and manipulate the corporation tax that they pay, that isn't the barrier.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In rapid form, we could mfr everything that is currently made in China, after all we used to before it was transferred out there. Build them anywhere you like, plenty of brownfield sites, plenty of councils would roll out the red carpet for you. Labour, everywhere.

The next three are the real problems. No one is going to set up a factory, invest in machinery, employ people etc on a wing and a prayer. Build it and they will come, doesn't work in business, as Kev partially found out. Goods will cost more, costs to mfr are far greater than in China so you are asking the consumer to pay more, let's say 20% as a hypothetical figure, and history shows that people generally lean towards a lower priced figure. If you want mfrs here to stand a chance then it will need the govt to place significant tariffs on imports to level up their prices. Tariffs equal a trade war plus inflation, never popular with govts.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.

(I'm guessing you know all of the above but I thought it may be useful for those not in this area of work to expand on your points. You may well disagree on my first 3 points, I get that, but I stand by them)
		
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There are ways and means if the will is there.  My question is 'Whats the alternative'.  We have and will learn that cheap and often low quality products from Countries like China, India etc come with a price. We have experienced in our societies what we must pay in the way of regional degradation and  poverty so that someone can wear cheap socks or have three TVs in their home.

To me it's time to reinvent ourselves and plan for a different future thats more in line with countries like Germany who take pride in their manufacturing and quality products even if they are more expensive.  Reading s few of the despotic posts it sounds like we have no way to change.  People suggesting it would take a long time or we don't have room for factories are IMO surrendering to a culture that is and will keep biting us in the backside.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 26, 2022)

Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss 👍


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss 👍
		
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It doesn't need to be outright political Tash.   It's a little bit off piste but our reliance on countries like Russia and China and what we could do about improving it doesn't need to be pointed at the Politic.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't need to be outright political Tash.   It's a little bit off piste but our reliance on countries like Russia and China and what we could do about improving it doesn't need to be pointed at the Politic.
		
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Goes back to short term thinking and short term money making.

For example the dartford crossing over the thames being sold off to an outside company, instant money into HMRC but imagine having that toll drip feeding, yes it was suppose to be free once cost of building had been covered but change always happens.. So it used to be £1 and manned by toll attendants now its like £2.50 a pop, ANPR cameras , so easy to get the money in .. yet thats been sold to someone rather than being a constant feed of money which would be great

It always goes back to the obsession with "balancing the books" so short term making savings in ways that in a few years its goes back when someone else takes over 

Just a constant way of working would be good with a clear plan


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## Tashyboy (Feb 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss 👍
		
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It doesn’t SR,but back in the day when we had nationised industry we never relied on other countries for energy, steel, services etc. they were subsidised by tax payers to produce a service and create employment in this country. We were then told that privatisation and holding shares in companies we owned was the way forward. Our large industries went into privatisation which we were told would create competition and lower prices. That’s not worked out to well. Look at railways for example, look at energy. But that’s a simplistic way of putting it without getting political. Like I say, I totally agree with what has been said re being more independent But it’s a tough topic without getting the big P involved.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			It doesn’t SR,but back in the day when we had nationised industry we never relied on other countries for energy, steel, services etc. they were subsidised by tax payers to produce a service and create employment in this country. We were then told that privatisation and holding shares in companies we owned was the way forward. Our large industries went into privatisation which we were told would create competition and lower prices. That’s not worked out to well. Look at railways for example, look at energy. But that’s a simplistic way of putting it without getting political. Like I say, I totally agree with what has been said re being more independent But it’s a tough topic without getting the big P involved.
		
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To be fair Tash, whilst im firmly on your side I will say we do have more options than ever and it has given cheaper prices in a lot of aspects until covid

energy is a prime example

this covid then war has caused this and it wont get better anytime soon

with transport im again on your side firmly. However when people moan about the costs its all linked, for example the cost of a travel cards are like £50 a week for certain ones, when that factors in getting to work thats cheaper than driving at times


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## stefanovic (Feb 26, 2022)

What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at *100 seconds to midnight*—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion *more* than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at *100 seconds to midnight*—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion *more* than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
		
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Infestation is a strange choice of words. 😳🤔


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## RichA (Feb 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?
		
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Haven't heard anyone claiming expertise, but a future of continued funding of autocratic war machines, just because they have the cheapest fossil fuels and electrical goods, seems like something we should be moving away from.


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## Smiffy (Feb 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Infestation is a strange choice of words. 😳🤔
		
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Taking into account the way we treat our planet, I'd say it's the perfect choice.


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## pendodave (Feb 26, 2022)

RichA said:



			Haven't heard anyone claiming expertise, but a future of continued funding of autocratic war machines, just because they have the cheapest fossil fuels and electrical goods, seems like something we should be moving away from.
		
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Cheap hydrocarbons, imported cheap consumable goods and laundering of dodgy money is pretty much the entire basis of our economy. 
Take those away and we're back to banging rocks together.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 26, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Our problem is *WE want cheap* and don't care where it comes from. Time to get realistic and pay the going rate for things that are and can be produced here.
		
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WE don't always have the choice; the laptop on which I'm replying is an Apple MacBook, so I think it's fair to say I wasn't looking for the cheapest option but the one I perceived to be the best one (computer pedants please don't start...).  Look on the back; Designed in USA, Assembled in China.  Even if we as consumers want to avoid buying from there, can we?

And one part of the equation in the demise of our industry has to be quality; the reason that Japanese cars gained such a foothold over their British counterparts was the reliability, much the same as their electrical goods.  At an independent garage that I used to use, all the mechanics used to drive Japanese cars; when I asked why, the response was "we spend all week fixing yours, we don't want to spend the weekend fixing ours."  Is it that we want it cheap, or that we want it to work?

I'd like to avoid putting my money into certain pockets, but short of buying nothing it's bloody hard to do.


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2022)

Seeing vitali klitschko getting ready to defend his capital.

Not sure we’d see mr khan doing that here


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			WE don't always have the choice; the laptop on which I'm replying is an Apple MacBook, so I think it's fair to say I wasn't looking for the cheapest option but the one I perceived to be the best one (computer pedants please don't start...).  Look on the back; Designed in USA, Assembled in China.  Even if we as consumers want to avoid buying from there, can we?

And one part of the equation in the demise of our industry has to be quality; the reason that Japanese cars gained such a foothold over their British counterparts was the reliability, much the same as their electrical goods.  At an independent garage that I used to use, all the mechanics used to drive Japanese cars; when I asked why, the response was "we spend all week fixing yours, we don't want to spend the weekend fixing ours."  Is it that we want it cheap, or that we want it to work?

I'd like to avoid putting my money into certain pockets, but short of buying nothing it's bloody hard to do.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on! 

Everything is outsourced , we don't have much control where we buy stuff from 

Plus we want quality , sometimes the best stuff isn't British made .. the fault or repair delay fords speak for themselves at a time .. plus the master keys being stolen... Or the locks you could smash with a screw driver and hammer 

It would be great to bring some things back in house in terms of production 

I really hope we crack nuclear and fusion energy and produce more ourselfs but also want to see more solar about... More storage for the gas we buy and produce


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## Tashyboy (Feb 26, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Taking into account the way we treat our planet, I'd say it's the perfect choice.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but it’s not all of us, although putting the thread back on track I would put Putin in the infestation category.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 26, 2022)

Dando said:



			Seeing vitali klitschko getting ready to defend his capital.

Not sure we’d see mr khan doing that here
		
Click to expand...

Why?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Dando said:



			Seeing vitali klitschko getting ready to defend his capital.

Not sure we’d see mr khan doing that here
		
Click to expand...

Dont think you would see Joshua do it either....... more comparable ..

might see Fury


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			...
Plus we want quality , sometimes the best stuff isn't British made .. the fault or repair delay fords speak for themselves at a time .. plus the master keys being stolen... Or the locks you could smash with a screw driver and hammer

It would be great to bring some things back in house in terms of production

I really hope we crack nuclear and fusion energy and produce more ourselfs but also want to see more solar about... More storage for the gas we buy and produce
		
Click to expand...

Dedication to Quality played a major role in Japan's recovery - plenty of examples in the motor industry that also reduce 'industrial disease' too. In-house isn't necessarily the best for every part of the process either. Vehicle producers don't manufacture tyres, brakes and instruments for example.


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## Imurg (Feb 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Dont think you would see Joshua do it either....... more comparable ..

might see Fury
		
Click to expand...

Vitali Klitschko is the Mayor..........


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 26, 2022)

If you can and want to help, Ukraine is appealing directly for cash to go to their army in order to defend themselves. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497294840110977024


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Dont think you would see Joshua do it either....... more comparable ..

might see Fury
		
Click to expand...

I picked vitali as he’s the mayor.
fury and his mates from the alternative caravan club could be fun to watch


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## greenone (Feb 26, 2022)

Dando said:



			I picked vitali as he’s the mayor.
fury and his mates from the alternative caravan club could be fun to watch
		
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Vitali and fury lying in to the road next to each other would make a pretty good roadblock with the size of them.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at *100 seconds to midnight*—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion *more* than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
		
Click to expand...

Global Population is due to decline post 2070. Do some research


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at *100 seconds to midnight*—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion *more* than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
		
Click to expand...

Well, the fact that it hasn't changed since 2020 is relatively good news.
And I note you, ever the pessimist, take the worst (?) case value (of 65 estimates) of sustainable population!


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Goes back to short term thinking and short term money making.

For example the dartford crossing over the thames being sold off to an outside company, instant money into HMRC but imagine having that toll drip feeding, yes it was suppose to be free once cost of building had been covered but change always happens.. So it used to be £1 and manned by toll attendants now its like £2.50 a pop, ANPR cameras , so easy to get the money in .. yet thats been sold to someone rather than being a constant feed of money which would be great

It always goes back to the obsession with "balancing the books" so short term making savings in ways that in a few years its goes back when someone else takes over

Just a constant way of working would be good with a clear plan
		
Click to expand...

I trust you realise that the current charge is, allowing for inflation, less than the original charge (2shillings and 6 pence or 12.5p) - even though 'cost of building' was covered some time ago.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that the current charge is, allowing for inflation, less than the original charge (2shillings and 6 pence or 12.5p) - even though 'cost of building' was covered some time ago.
		
Click to expand...

The amount itself isn't the point, how many cars use it a day? 130,000 so £325,000 a day .. call it £250,000 incase of discounts and time based use .. that's almost 2 million a week gone from the pot


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## pendodave (Feb 27, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Global Population is due to decline post 2070. Do some research
		
Click to expand...

It's already far above sustainable. In what way are increases for the next 50 years to be seen as A Good Thing? 
There's nothing that isn't made worse by having more people, and very little that isn't made a lot better by there being less.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2022)

There seems to be a lot of disapproval of this invasion by Russian people according to some media. How can Putin expect this to end well, its just brutal and creating more NATO not less.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 27, 2022)

Dando said:



			Seeing vitali klitschko getting ready to defend his capital.

Not sure we’d see mr khan doing that here
		
Click to expand...

I was going to start a crowdfunding appeal to send Sadiq Khan into space and leave him there but the Ukraine will be cheaper and do the same trick.


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## The Lion (Feb 27, 2022)

pendodave said:



			It's already far above sustainable. In what way are increases for the next 50 years to be seen as A Good Thing? 
There's nothing that isn't made worse by having more people, and very little that isn't made a lot better by there being less.
		
Click to expand...

Wholeheartedly agree with you 👏 

I’ve thought for a long time that governments globally need to mandate 2 (or poss 3) children per family as a maximum. 

No ifs, no buts.   

Only sensible, organic population reduction will put our species back on the right path. It would also reduce the potential for future conflicts over dwindling resources too.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There seems to be a lot of disapproval of this invasion by Russian people according to some media. How can Putin expect this to end well, its just brutal and creating more NATO not less.
		
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Russia, be it Tsarist, Soviet, or Russian Federation, have always had their own way of dealing with problems. I should NOT like to be in Putin’s shoes right now. I believe he has more to fear from his own people than from the West (wouldn’t be difficult…).
I hope I am right. The average Ivan or Lyuba doesn’t want WWIII any more than we do.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I was going to start a crowdfunding appeal to send Sadiq Khan into space and leave him there but the Ukraine will be cheaper and do the same trick.
		
Click to expand...

Send him to Russia instead, no need for financial sanctions as he's guaranteed to bankrupt the country in months.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Send him to Russia instead, no need for financial sanctions as he's guaranteed to bankrupt the country in months.
		
Click to expand...

Please dont buy into that myth. Covid caused all of the financial trouble he is deemed to have caused...

Previous mayor of london left TFL with 1.5 billion deficit .. and cut gov central funding
Khan froze the fares.. then by 2019 he got the deficit to 0.5 billion and was on course to be level by 2020. covid got in the way. 

those are both fact checked and showed by the KPMG report ordered by the DFT into TFL finances 

so Khan has caused no problems with money.. covid has

but that doesnt suit the agenda of those at the top.


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## Dando (Feb 27, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Send him to Russia instead, no need for financial sanctions as he's guaranteed to bankrupt the country in months.
		
Click to expand...

Or he could authorise bike lanes everywhere to stop the tanks


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2022)

BREAKING: Ukrainian military sources have been informed that Belorussian special ops forces are loading to airplanes for air assault on Kyiv and Zhytomir.
If true, this means Belarus is joining Russia in the invasion of a sovereign state.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 27, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: Ukrainian military sources have been informed that Belorussian special ops forces are loading to airplanes for air assault on Kyiv and Zhytomir.
If true, this means Belarus is joining Russia in the invasion of a sovereign state.
		
Click to expand...

Well they have already assisted Russia by allowing troop movements through Belarus and Belarus is now the subject of international sanctions for doing so.

Already implicated, they are probably fully siding with Russia in the hope that Putin survives intact


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## chrisd (Feb 27, 2022)

Dando said:



			Or he could authorise bike lanes everywhere to stop the tanks
		
Click to expand...

Simple when you think about it 😀


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2022)

Dando said:



			Or he could authorise bike lanes everywhere to stop the tanks
		
Click to expand...

And he could change all the road names and build wooden planters everywhere


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## SaintHacker (Feb 27, 2022)

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-v...lear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278


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## Smiffy (Feb 27, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



https://news.sky.com/story/russia-v...lear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278



Click to expand...

It's a crazy moment in time.. 
He's that unhinged, how do we know he hasn't just been diagnosed with an incurable disease and just thinks with nothing to lose he might as well take everybody else with him


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2022)

Chelsea trustees have not agreed to take on 'stewardship' over fears of being front for Roman Abramovich
| @JWTelegraph @SamWallaceTel
https://t.co/mb0Lq7K7dH


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## Tashyboy (Feb 27, 2022)

The Lion said:



			Wholeheartedly agree with you 👏

I’ve thought for a long time that governments globally need to mandate 2 (or poss 3) children per family as a maximum.

No ifs, no buts.  

Only sensible, organic population reduction will put our species back on the right path. It would also reduce the potential for future conflicts over dwindling resources too.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst we pay for child maintenance and people can afford to live without working by having more than 2 kids. Breeding will continue. I would now pay for two kids max. And if people want more.  They need to be funded by themselves. 👍


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Whilst we pay for child maintenance and people can afford to live without working by having more than 2 kids. Breeding will continue. I would now pay for two kids max. And if people want more.  They need to be funded by themselves. 👍
		
Click to expand...

Don't we do that now?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Whilst we pay for child maintenance and people can afford to live without working by having more than 2 kids. Breeding will continue. I would now pay for two kids max. And if people want more.  They need to be funded by themselves. 👍
		
Click to expand...

That's already done 

I personally don't get any child benefit because of my wage however if I did I'd get all 3 as twins don't count or something 

But right now it's 2 births and that's it.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't we do that now?
		
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😳 do we, every days a skool day.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			😳 do we, every days a skool day.
		
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thing is tash it really is.. unless it affects our life this second we only go by what happened to us when we were going through that situation or someone close to us goes through it 

just like at work when people ask me for help to get through my job application process im like I did it 4 years ago.. its changed twice since then


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## Rlburnside (Feb 27, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Chelsea trustees have not agreed to take on 'stewardship' over fears of being front for Roman Abramovich
| @JWTelegraph @SamWallaceTel
https://t.co/mb0Lq7K7dH

Click to expand...

Its coming home to roost, morally I hope the outcome is the correct one , but unfortunately the more money you have  the more you get away with.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 27, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



https://news.sky.com/story/russia-v...lear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278



Click to expand...

Saw that in the club at lunchtime. Very concerning and you have to hope he has aides that can talk to him and get him to back down from that line of action. Sounds to me like he's hell bent on a world war.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Saw that in the club at lunchtime. Very concerning and you have to hope he has aides that can talk to him and get him to back down from that line of action. Sounds to me like he's hell bent on a world war.
		
Click to expand...

Is this all Putin, or is he a puppet and it is the people behind the scenes?

It is difficult to understand how he appears to be acting so irrationally, without the people around him doing something about it. 

China have failed to condemn Russia publicly, but I wonder what their opinion would be on Russia threatening to use nuclear weapons? Surely even that is a step too far for them.


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



https://news.sky.com/story/russia-v...lear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278



Click to expand...


this really is just fearmongering bs isnt it?

theyve gone to war, of course all of their forces are on high alert, or are we supposed to expect that a few of them are sitting at home twiddling their thumbs?

the amount of fake news, false reporting and fear mongering, on social media and also in the MSM, at ridiculously high levels inside a few days

another thread i need to put on ignore.......................


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			China have failed to condemn Russia publicly, but I wonder what their opinion would be on Russia threatening to use nuclear weapons? Surely even that is a step too far for them.
		
Click to expand...

You'd hope so


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2022)

fundy said:



			this really is just fearmongering bs isnt it?

theyve gone to war, of course all of their forces are on high alert, or are we supposed to expect that a few of them are sitting at home twiddling their thumbs?

the amount of fake news, false reporting and fear mongering, on social media and also in the MSM, at ridiculously high levels inside a few days

another thread i need to put on ignore.......................
		
Click to expand...

A week or 2 ago, would you have said claims Russia may invade the entire of Ukraine, putting the world on high alert and disgust,  was fear mongering as well


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2022)

fundy said:



			this really is just fearmongering bs isnt it?

theyve gone to war, of course all of their forces are on high alert, or are we supposed to expect that a few of them are sitting at home twiddling their thumbs?

the amount of fake news, false reporting and fear mongering, on social media and also in the MSM, at ridiculously high levels inside a few days

another thread i need to put on ignore.......................
		
Click to expand...

Yep that’s pretty much it - Putin isn’t stupid enough or mad enough to go near the red button 

I have a feeling that he thought Ukraine would crumble quickly but they haven’t and Russia having to rely on old equipment as well 

He is desperate for talks now as right now he is starting to come under a lot of pressure internally because those financial sanctions will actually hit hard


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep that’s pretty much it - Putin isn’t stupid enough or mad enough to go near the red button

I have a feeling that he thought Ukraine would crumble quickly but they haven’t and Russia having to rely on old equipment as well

He is desperate for talks now as right now he is starting to come under a lot of pressure internally because those financial sanctions will actually hit hard
		
Click to expand...


Who knows how true that is, Id love what you say to be true but is it really or is that the view that certain areas want to portray currently and the one most of us would like to hear?

There is certainly a lot of very different views being reported currently, most with an agenda behind them


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## theoneandonly (Feb 27, 2022)

fundy said:



			Who knows how true that is, Id love what you say to be true but is it really or is that the view that certain areas want to portray currently and the one most of us would like to hear?

There is certainly a lot of very different views being reported currently, most with an agenda behind them
		
Click to expand...

Putin said the nuclear stuff on the Tele....


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2022)

fundy said:



			Who knows how true that is, Id love what you say to be true but is it really or is that the view that certain areas want to portray currently and the one most of us would like to hear?

There is certainly a lot of very different views being reported currently, most with an agenda behind them
		
Click to expand...

Propaganda right now is people massively played both sides - as you say it’s hard to understand what to believe or not at times , there is also a lot of the anti western ( us/nato ) stuff being driven from inside the western countries as well 

The last 7 days have opened up a lot of eyes towards how a conflict is also being fought in the media and crucially on social media as well. It’s going to get worse over the next couple of days 



theoneandonly said:



			Putin said the nuclear stuff on the Tele....
		
Click to expand...

He won’t touch Nuclear weapons


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## theoneandonly (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Propaganda right now is people massively played both sides - as you say it’s hard to understand what to believe or not at times , there is also a lot of the anti western ( us/nato ) stuff being driven from inside the western countries as well

The last 7 days have opened up a lot of eyes towards how a conflict is also being fought in the media and crucially on social media as well. It’s going to get worse over the next couple of days



He won’t touch Nuclear weapons
		
Click to expand...

And you know this how?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep that’s pretty much it - Putin isn’t stupid enough or mad enough to go near the red button

I have a feeling that he thought Ukraine would crumble quickly but they haven’t and Russia having to rely on old equipment as well

He is desperate for talks now as right now he is starting to come under a lot of pressure internally because those financial sanctions will actually hit hard
		
Click to expand...

I'm glad you can read what is on Putin's mind, especially when the rest of the world are struggling. 

What will talks get him now? Ukraine are adamant they want Russia gone and they are a sovereign nation, if he just says "fair enough" then his credibility is gone to anyone who actually supported him. And, no matter what happens now, I doubt European countries and companies will be flocking back to "business as usual" with Russia. 

I don't see how he gets himself out of this mess now. I just hope he doesn't decided going full on berserk when he is fully backed into a corner he can't get out of.


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Propaganda right now is people massively played both sides - as you say it’s hard to understand what to believe or not at times , there is also a lot of the anti western ( us/nato ) stuff being driven from inside the western countries as well

The last 7 days have opened up a lot of eyes towards how a conflict is also being fought in the media and crucially on social media as well. It’s going to get worse over the next couple of days



He won’t touch Nuclear weapons
		
Click to expand...


Agree 100% with the first 2 sentences, i hope youre right on the 3rd one


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			And you know this how?
		
Click to expand...

Because he knows as soon as that red button is pressed then it’s a World War of consequences out of his control , there is just as much nuclear Arsenal pointing at him -  no nuclear power ever wants to press the red button because they know what happens - hence why it’s been 70 plus years since the only two have been used. 


It’s about 50 steps up from an invasion into Ukraine. 

It’s nothing but an attempt at scaremongering words


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## BiMGuy (Feb 27, 2022)

Does anyone really believe Putin has the sole capability of launching a nuclear weapon?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Does anyone really believe Putin has the sole capability of launching a nuclear weapon?
		
Click to expand...

No he must have his generals onside to invade anywhere.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 27, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			No he must have his generals onside to invade anywhere.
		
Click to expand...

He must indeed. But there is a big leap from a ground invasion to nukes.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 27, 2022)

Interesting chat with the eldest son tonight (lance bombardier in the Royal Artillery). The 'inside'word is that the Ukrainians are giving the ruskies are far bigger kicking than is being reported, they already know the russians tactics and have countered them from the off. The russian equipment is old and unreliable compared to the new stuff we (nato) are supplying the Ukraine. Putin expected them to just roll over but that hasnt happened, he also expected support from China but that also hasnt happened so he could be looking at an embarrassing and costly defeat. Would be interesting to know how many US/UK subs are bobbing around the russian coast, just in case...


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 27, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Interesting chat with the eldest son tonight (lance bombardier in the Royal Artillery). The 'inside'word is that the Ukrainians are giving the ruskies are far bigger kicking than is being reported, they already know the russians tactics and have countered them from the off. The russian equipment is old and unreliable compared to the new stuff we (nato) are supplying the Ukraine. Putin expected them to just roll over but that hasnt happened, he also expected support from China but that also hasnt happened so he could be looking at an embarrassing and costly defeat. Would be interesting to know how many US/UK subs are bobbing around the russian coast, just in case...
		
Click to expand...

Hope it was a secure line


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm glad you can read what is on Putin's mind, especially when the rest of the world are struggling.

What will talks get him now? Ukraine are adamant they want Russia gone and they are a sovereign nation, if he just says "fair enough" then his credibility is gone to anyone who actually supported him. And, no matter what happens now, I doubt European countries and companies will be flocking back to "business as usual" with Russia.

I don't see how he gets himself out of this mess now. I just hope he doesn't decided going full on berserk when he is fully backed into a corner he can't get out of.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really see Putin as someone who is going to start a nuclear war to save his credibility 🙄 - he has no credibility anyway , that was long gone and he prob doesn’t give too hoots 

His Russian Military are not as powerful as he thought and it takes more than weight of numbers - it will be messy for a few more days and then there will be a ceasefire followed by a slow withdrawal 

And Putin would be removed before he went near any button to start a nuclear war


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## SaintHacker (Feb 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hope it was a secure line 

Click to expand...

Depends if the mrs was listening from the kitchen😉😂


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 27, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Depends if the mrs was listening from the kitchen😉😂
		
Click to expand...

Nothing’s secure from them…
😳


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you really see Putin as someone who is going to start a nuclear war to save his credibility 🙄 - he has no credibility anyway , that was long gone and he prob doesn’t give too hoots

His Russian Military are not as powerful as he thought and it takes more than weight of numbers - it will be messy for a few more days and then there will be a ceasefire followed by a slow withdrawal

And Putin would be removed before he went near any button to start a nuclear war
		
Click to expand...

I've no idea what Putin or his cronies are capable of. Well, they are at a .minimum capable of invading a sovereign country despite most of the world desperately asking them not to.

What are they capable beyond that? Who knows. However, I hope the west at least take the potential of a nuclear attack seriously, rather than assume there is no chance of him doing it. Therefore, on the remote chance the worse comes to worst, they may be able to have their defences ready.


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## hovis (Feb 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've no idea what Putin or his cronies are capable of. Well, they are at a .minimum capable of invading a sovereign country despite most of the world desperately asking them not to.

What are they capable beyond that? Who knows. However, I hope the west at least take the potential of a nuclear attack seriously, rather than assume there is no chance of him doing it. Therefore, on the remote chance the worse comes to worst, they may be able to have their defences ready.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there's not much defence against the hypersonic missiles that Russia have


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've no idea what Putin or his cronies are capable of. Well, they are at a .minimum capable of invading a sovereign country despite most of the world desperately asking them not to.

What are they capable beyond that? Who knows. However, I hope the west at least take the potential of a nuclear attack seriously, rather than assume there is no chance of him doing it. Therefore, on the remote chance the worse comes to worst, they may be able to have their defences ready.
		
Click to expand...

Do you not think the west are always aware of the nuclear capability of Russia ?

If Russia do press the button there’s little defence - the action will be to respond in kind.

What is it you think can defend against a ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead ?


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## theoneandonly (Feb 27, 2022)

You can defend against ICBMs they can be shot down if detected early enough. Hypersonic glide missiles on the other hand.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			Unfortunately there's not much defence against the hypersonic missiles that Russia have
		
Click to expand...

A quick google shows he has certainly got them, whether they are now fitted with nukes. They may not yet, but soon will be.
On another note, Missis T says Putin told his defence folk to get the nukes ready and they had a look of shock on there faces. May well seem that some of his staff, well there not to impressed.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			A quick google shows he has certainly got them, whether they are now fitted with nukes. They may not yet, but soon will be.
On another note, Missis T says Putin told his defence folk to get the nukes ready and they had a look of shock on there faces. May well seem that some of his staff, well there not to impressed.
		
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They need to remove him now.
That’s what happens when a bully dosnt get his own way, his targets are not cowering but fighting back.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 27, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			They need to remove him now.
That’s what happens when a bully dosnt get his own way, his targets are not cowering but fighting back.
		
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Ave a feeling he has bit off more than He can chew.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave a feeling he has bit off more than He can chew.
		
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Yes he might be biting a bullet soon.
Always thought one of his own will do for him


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## The Lion (Feb 27, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes he might be biting a bullet soon.
Always thought one of his own will do for him
		
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Well said. That is the only language dictators and demagogues understand.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2022)

The Lion said:



			Well said. That is the only language dictators and demagogues understand.
		
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Logical really.
He’s hiding in his bunker while his soldiers die.
Sooner or later one of the generals will think his men are more important than Putin.
The sooner the better.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not think the west are always aware of the nuclear capability of Russia ?

If Russia do press the button there’s little defence - the action will be to respond in kind.

What is it you think can defend against a ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead ?
		
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Not much, once it is launched. Beforehand, diplomacy, or finding some other way to stop a launch.

The point is, it is impossible for anyone to say with any certainty that Russia would not push the red button. And, when backed into a corner, there may be certain people that would just go for it. So, I'm hoping there are a large number of people involved in Russia to provide a barrier to this decision ever being made.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2022)

Putin's action re nuclear arsenal was/is pure brinkmanship!
It does surprise me Russian forces haven't made as much progress as I thought they would.
I'll wait until the talks are organised and started. I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine cede some territory in the 2 regions with significant Russian presence, though that doesn't sit well.


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Interesting chat with the eldest son tonight (lance bombardier in the Royal Artillery). The 'inside'word is that the Ukrainians are giving the ruskies are far bigger kicking than is being reported, they already know the russians tactics and have countered them from the off. The russian equipment is old and unreliable compared to the new stuff we (nato) are supplying the Ukraine. Putin expected them to just roll over but that hasnt happened, he also expected support from China but that also hasnt happened so he could be looking at an embarrassing and costly defeat. Would be interesting to know how many US/UK subs are bobbing around the russian coast, just in case...
		
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Sounds like squaddie propaganda to me, no offence. Putin has never lost a war. Also wasn’t it a huge statement when Putin walked out with China’s president during the Winter Olympics? I’m sure China are fully on Putins side.

Russia will surely take the capital soon with ‘neutral’ talks about a new Russian government within the next couple of weeks.


What happens next. Is this just the start of it? Obviously he’d be mental to go after any NATO state.


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Saw that in the club at lunchtime. Very concerning and you have to hope he has aides that can talk to him and get him to back down from that line of action. Sounds to me like he's hell bent on a world war.
		
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Although he can give the order to launch the nukes, it’s the military who have the final say and can ignore him - it’s the same with any nuclear power.

I guess it’ll take a brave man to ignore Putin


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## backwoodsman (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Sounds like squaddie propaganda to me, no offence. Putin has never lost a war. Also wasn’t it a huge statement when Putin walked out with China’s president during the Winter Olympics? I’m sure China are fully on Putins side.

Russia will surely take the capital soon with ‘neutral’ talks about a new Russian government within the next couple of weeks.


What happens next. Is this just the start of it? Obviously he’d be mental to go after any NATO state.
		
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Doesn't sound like "squaddie propoganda" to me.  Sainthacker's lad is only reporting (confirming?) what's already being reported in mainstream media  - ie Ukraine army has not rolled over in the way Russsia likely expected, and Russian hardware is not as up-to-date as it could be.


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Doesn't sound like "squaddie propoganda" to me.  Sainthacker's lad is only reporting (confirming?) what's already being reported in mainstream media  - ie Ukraine army has not rolled over in the way Russsia likely expected, and Russian hardware is not as up-to-date as it could be.
		
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that would be reported tho, it’s pretty much echoes what all the the western media reports are saying..

I know of people who are on the ground in Ukraine who tell a different story


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

The sad reality is there are far more complications to occur from Russia losing than there is from Russia winning. 

He ain’t backing down anytime soon. Either Putin wins or he’s driven out of the country.


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Sounds like squaddie propaganda to me, no offence. Putin has never lost a war. Also wasn’t it a huge statement when Putin walked out with China’s president during the Winter Olympics? I’m sure China are fully on Putins side.

Russia will surely take the capital soon with ‘neutral’ talks about a new Russian government within the next couple of weeks.


What happens next. Is this just the start of it? Obviously he’d be mental to go after any NATO state.
		
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I’d rather take the word of his son than anything you say!


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Dando said:



			I’d rather take the word of his son than anything you say!
		
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Which has just been everything that has been said in the media. 

Just like when our troops invaded Iraq on that basis of ‘weapons of mass destruction’

Bet you believed that also mate


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## tugglesf239 (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Sounds like squaddie propaganda to me, no offence. Putin has never lost a war. Also wasn’t it a huge statement when Putin walked out with China’s president during the Winter Olympics? I’m sure China are fully on Putins side.

Russia will surely take the capital soon with ‘neutral’ talks about a new Russian government within the next couple of weeks.


What happens next. Is this just the start of it? Obviously he’d be mental to go after any NATO state.
		
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Putin has never fought any actual wars, only special operations. 

Invading Crimea with a 1 million populace or fighing a proxy war in Syria using Syrian Militia, is a world away from a full on invasion of a country of 45 million people. 

There are making a total hash of this. They are even unable to keep supply lines open on there own boarder crossings. 

One things for certain. Even if they manage to overthrow the Ukrainian government, the reputation of the ruskie armed forces is in tatters. 

Spetsnaz my arse 😂


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Putin has never fought any actual wars, only special operations.

Invading Crimea with a 1 million populace or fighing a proxy war in Syria using Syrian Militia, is a world away from a full on invasion of a country of 45 million people.

There are making a total hash of this. They are even unable to keep supply lines open on there own boarder crossings.

One things for certain. Even if they manage to overthrow the Ukrainian government, the reputation of the ruskie armed forces is in tatters.

Spetsnaz my arse 😂
		
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It’s too late for him to save face. Putin is the most hated man since Adolf Hitler. All or nothing. Nukes being prepped in Belarus as we speak.  

Doesn’t look good for Ukraine unfortunately. It’s a personal vendetta for Putin now and he won’t stop.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			It’s too late for him to save face. Putin is the most hated man since Adolf Hitler. All or nothing. Nukes being prepped in Belarus as we speak. 

Doesn’t look good for Ukraine unfortunately. It’s a personal vendetta for Putin now and he won’t stop.
		
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🤦‍♂️

If he won’t stop and is ready to press the big red button why then is he so desperate for talks with Ukraine ? 

The reason is simple - they have made a mess of it , they thought weight of numbers would steamroll them to take over the Country - it hasn’t happened and Ukraine are fighting back in a big way taking back areas


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

I*f he won’t stop and is ready to press the big red button why then is he so desperate for talks with Ukraine ?*

The reason is simple - they have made a mess of it , they thought weight of numbers would steamroll them to take over the Country - it hasn’t happened and Ukraine are fighting back in a big way taking back areas
		
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Simple answer is he’s going to make unreasonable demands where he gets the ‘ok’ from his people saying he ‘tried’. It’s a trap.

The talks also bolster him enough time to get more military back up with the added help from Belarus. 

Failing that I imagine he would be butt hurt enough to press a red button.

Too many people jacked up on hopium and not really seeing the reality of the situation.


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Simple answer is he’s going to make unreasonable demands where he gets the ‘ok’ from his people saying he ‘tried’. It’s a trap.

The talks also bolster him enough time to get more military back up with the added help from Belarus. 

Failing that I imagine he would be butt hurt enough to press a red button.

Too many people jacked up on hopium and not really seeing the reality of the situation.
		
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He doesn’t press the red button!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Simple answer is he’s going to make unreasonable demands where he gets the ‘ok’ from his people saying he ‘tried’. It’s a trap.

The talks also bolster him enough time to get more military back up with the added help from Belarus.

Failing that I imagine he would be butt hurt enough to press a red button.

Too many people jacked up on hopium and not really seeing the reality of the situation.
		
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Think you need to stop play COD on your games console or watching too many fiction movies


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Which has just been everything that has been said in the media. 

Just like when our troops invaded Iraq on that basis of ‘weapons of mass destruction’

Bet you believed that also mate
		
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I’m not your mate!


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## Dando (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you need to stop play COD on your games console or watching too many fiction movies
		
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Don’t start Phil.

Do you know how far he hits a 6 iron - that would have Putin quaking in his boots


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you need to stop play COD on your games console or watching too many fiction movies
		
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Never played it. Heard it’s good tho.

What’s it like?

Do you have one of those headsets?


Dando said:



			I’m not your mate!
		
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Calm down petal


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Dando said:



			Don’t start Phil.

*Do you know how far he hits a 6 iron* - that would have Putin quaking in his boots
		
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Further than you mate 😎


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Further than you mate 😎
		
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Ok let’s cut the bravado and Willy waving please


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok let’s cut the bravado and Willy waving please
		
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They are trolling me in fairness but apologies boss. I will refrain.


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## DanFST (Feb 28, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Putin has never fought any actual wars, only special operations.

Invading Crimea with a 1 million populace or fighing a proxy war in Syria using Syrian Militia, is a world away from a full on invasion of a country of 45 million people.

There are making a total hash of this. They are even unable to keep supply lines open on there own boarder crossings.

One things for certain. Even if they manage to overthrow the Ukrainian government, the reputation of the ruskie armed forces is in tatters.

Spetsnaz my arse 😂
		
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I'm not sure, seems standard soviet military tactics for me. They are advancing as far enough as supplies allow (still very fast). They will use the conscripts to identify strong points. Like to slaughter, then use proper troops to go in and clean up, with NVD's at night. The conscripts have been ordered to fight in sunlight as they don't even have access to night vision! 

The only off thing to this is it's hard to tell who actually controls most of the airfields. The downing of the 2 IL 76's and the fact Ukraine still has an air presence is a big shock. And would indicate that it's not all going Ruski's way.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 28, 2022)

Is there any topic on this forum that doesn't result in our own little "war"?! Jeez Louise


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## Beezerk (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If he won’t stop and is ready to press the big red button why then is he so desperate for talks with Ukraine ?
		
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He will probably use the talks to buy time and then blame Ukraine for some strange atrocity and carry on his attack. Those are the words of the ex NATO adviser on the radio this morning btw not mine.
Putin has lost the plot, he now seems to be acting as a total psychopath, it does make you wonder how much support he has in the Kremlin.


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm not concerned, at this point, about his use of the big red button, my concerns are the weapons below that level that he'll have absolutely no issues with using on the Ukraine. His ideal would have been to roll into the Ukraine and face little resistance, break the population and the job is done. It's obviously not working out like that and he's suffered greater losses that he'd expected and also the level of embarrassment he's facing with his supposedly well trained army being kept at bay by Ukraine's own arm and their militia. That said I don't think we should be under any illusion that if he really wants to take Ukraine he can do, it's just what will be left of it when his tanks roll into Kiev etc.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

If he won’t stop and is ready to press the big red button why then is he so desperate for talks with Ukraine ?

The reason is simple - they have made a mess of it , they thought weight of numbers would steamroll them to take over the Country - it hasn’t happened and Ukraine are fighting back in a big way taking back areas
		
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Many people said Putin would NOT annex Crimea, start a war in Donbas or invade the entire of Ukraine. But he did.

On Thursday Putin said "To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history". That sounds like a pretty major threat related to the use of nuclear weapons.

Apparently Putin has said many times "if there is no Russia, why do we need a planet?"

Right now, Russia have their backs up against the wall. Nearly the entire world are not only against their invasion, but are implementing sanctions on Russia that are going to severely weaken it over the years to come. Even if he backs down, he will be seen as weak to his supporters, whilst being unable to build Russia's trust with the world, and building its economy again. So, to Putin, this severe miscalculation could make him feel like Russia is a broken nation. If so, how will be act.

For those saying he definitely wouldn't have the red button pressed, I assume you are making that assessment based on how you would behave yourself. Yourself being, I'd assume, a fairly rational individual. You are not making that assessment based on an inside knowledge to what is in Putin's head? But, I also believe you would also say that there is no way on earth you'd have launched an entire invasion on Ukraine? That such a move would likely work out very badly for your country.

This may all sound like some fictional movie or video game. But, history has told us that from time to time, incidents happen that you'd think you'd only ever see in a movie.

I'd love to think of a way Putin could come to a position where he pulls out of Ukraine (or at least an extent agreeable to the Ukrainian people), in which he feels he can rebuild Russia's connections to the rest of the world to ensure their economy is strong, whilst saving face and looking like a strong and powerful leader. However, it is hard to see how that could be done, the damage is done. I'd imagine to him, NATO is pretty much at war with Russia now, whether or not they actually send troops into Ukraine or not.


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## RichA (Feb 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Many people said Putin would NOT annex Crimea, start a war in Donbas or invade the entire of Ukraine. But he did.

On Thursday Putin said "To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history". That sounds like a pretty major threat related to the use of nuclear weapons.

Apparently Putin has said many times "if there is no Russia, why do we need a planet?"

Right now, Russia have their backs up against the wall. Nearly the entire world are not only against their invasion, but are implementing sanctions on Russia that are going to severely weaken it over the years to come. Even if he backs down, he will be seen as weak to his supporters, whilst being unable to build Russia's trust with the world, and building its economy again. So, to Putin, this severe miscalculation could make him feel like Russia is a broken nation. If so, how will be act.

For those saying he definitely wouldn't have the red button pressed, I assume you are making that assessment based on how you would behave yourself. Yourself being, I'd assume, a fairly rational individual. You are not making that assessment based on an inside knowledge to what is in Putin's head? But, I also believe you would also say that there is no way on earth you'd have launched an entire invasion on Ukraine? That such a move would likely work out very badly for your country.

This may all sound like some fictional movie or video game. But, history has told us that from time to time, incidents happen that you'd think you'd only ever see in a movie.

I'd love to think of a way Putin could come to a position where he pulls out of Ukraine (or at least an extent agreeable to the Ukrainian people), in which he feels he can rebuild Russia's connections to the rest of the world to ensure their economy is strong, whilst saving face and looking like a strong and powerful leader. However, it is hard to see how that could be done, the damage is done. I'd imagine to him, NATO is pretty much at war with Russia now, whether or not they actually send troops into Ukraine or not.
		
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Yep. Hopefully, amongst all the other plans, somebody is working on a viable, face-saving exit strategy for him.
If he's playing a very long game, thinking 30 moves ahead, that might have been the plan all along.
We can only hope it's diabolical route to a moderate gain, rather than a grand plan that's backfiring horrendously.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 28, 2022)

On a lighter note, these two stories came out about the hugely impressive Ukranian President this morning. 1/ He won the Ukranian version of Strictly. 2/ He was the voice of Paddington in the Ukranian versions.  (he used to be an actor) Paddington v the Russians. In a story of horror you need little bright spots.


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			On a lighter note, these two stories came out about the hugely impressive Ukranian President this morning. 1/ He won the Ukranian version of Strictly. 2/ He was the voice of Paddington in the Ukranian versions.  (he used to be an actor) Paddington v the Russians. In a story of horror you need little bright spots.
		
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Didn’t he have an acting role as the president before he actually became president?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Many people said Putin would NOT annex Crimea, start a war in Donbas or invade the entire of Ukraine. But he did.
		
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And many people said he would and plenty gave warnings

Putin has been desperate to get them back under the Russian Flag 

It wasn’t a surprise to many 




			On Thursday Putin said "To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history". That sounds like a pretty major threat related to the use of nuclear weapons.
Apparently Putin has said many times "if there is no Russia, why do we need a planet?"

Right now, Russia have their backs up against the wall. Nearly the entire world are not only against their invasion, but are implementing sanctions on Russia that are going to severely weaken it over the years to come. Even if he backs down, he will be seen as weak to his supporters, whilst being unable to build Russia's trust with the world, and building its economy again. So, to Putin, this severe miscalculation could make him feel like Russia is a broken nation. If so, how will be act.

For those saying he definitely wouldn't have the red button pressed, I assume you are making that assessment based on how you would behave yourself. Yourself being, I'd assume, a fairly rational individual. You are not making that assessment based on an inside knowledge to what is in Putin's head? But, I also believe you would also say that there is no way on earth you'd have launched an entire invasion on Ukraine? That such a move would likely work out very badly for your country.

This may all sound like some fictional movie or video game. But, history has told us that from time to time, incidents happen that you'd think you'd only ever see in a movie.

I'd love to think of a way Putin could come to a position where he pulls out of Ukraine (or at least an extent agreeable to the Ukrainian people), in which he feels he can rebuild Russia's connections to the rest of the world to ensure their economy is strong, whilst saving face and looking like a strong and powerful leader. However, it is hard to see how that could be done, the damage is done. I'd imagine to him, NATO is pretty much at war with Russia now, whether or not they actually send troops into Ukraine or not.
		
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how many times has a nuclear weapon been deployed in the last 70 years and in that same period how many conflicts have there been ? Countless and Russia has been included in a number of those conflicts 

Can you even understand the step up from invading Ukraine to deploying a nuclear weapon which will result in world wide destruction - there have 100 other situations over the past 70 years which have been far worse and yet not a sniff of nuclear action 

Russia will not deploy a nuclear warhead into Ukraine - and they certainly aren’t going to send one into a NATO country , threat levels in the Uk etc haven’t changed 

Putin knows that some people will react and start to panic, the media will fuel that , propaganda will go into full flow - thankfully the majority won’t , and won’t bow down to him 

His invasion into Ukraine is going wrong , he will punish Generals etc and a ceasefire will happen with some give and take within Ukraine borders.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 28, 2022)

Dando said:



			I’m not your mate!
		
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That takes me back to a pre-season friendly against Aldershot in the 90s, drinking in a pub with some squaddies before the game, thought we was having a good laugh with them etc, just about to leave my mate says to one of them “see you later mate” squaddies goes “I’m not your mate” and tries to nut him! 😮

Big scuffle and off we run!😁


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## Bamberdele21 (Feb 28, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			That takes me back to a pre-season friendly against Aldershot in the 90s, drinking in a pub with some squaddies before the game, thought we was having a good laugh with them etc, just about to leave my mate says to one of them “see you later mate” squaddies goes “I’m not your mate” and tries to nut him! 😮

Big scuffle and off we run!😁
		
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Little man syndrome that. 

Bit like Putin.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And many people said he would and plenty gave warnings

Putin has been desperate to get them back under the Russian Flag

It wasn’t a surprise to many



how many times has a nuclear weapon been deployed in the last 70 years and in that same period how many conflicts have there been ? Countless and Russia has been included in a number of those conflicts

Can you even understand the step up from invading Ukraine to deploying a nuclear weapon which will result in world wide destruction - *there have 100 other situations over the past 70 years which have been far worse and yet not a sniff of nuclear action*

Russia will not deploy a nuclear warhead into Ukraine - and they certainly aren’t going to send one into a NATO country , threat levels in the Uk etc haven’t changed

Putin knows that some people will react and start to panic, the media will fuel that , propaganda will go into full flow - thankfully the majority won’t , and won’t bow down to him

His invasion into Ukraine is going wrong , he will punish Generals etc and a ceasefire will happen with some give and take within Ukraine borders.
		
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Can you please name the 100 other situations over the last 70 years that were far worse than this? Are you saying that, during the cold war there was not a sniff of nuclear action? If so, I wish you had been around at that time, and you could have told the world there was nothing to worry about. I'm pretty sure that some people around at the time, including the politicians and military personnel would tell you that at times, there was very much a sniff of nuclear action. Not just a sniff, but a strong stench of it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can you please name the 100 other situations over the last 70 years that were far worse than this? Are you saying that, during the cold war there was not a sniff of nuclear action? If so, I wish you had been around at that time, and you could have told the world there was nothing to worry about. I'm pretty sure that some people around at the time, including the politicians and military personnel would tell you that at times, there was very much a sniff of nuclear action. Not just a sniff, but a strong stench of it.
		
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Take your pick through all these 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1945–1989

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1990–2002

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003–present

And there is a list of “close calls” 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls

Cuban missile crisis is the closest it’s been and that was 60 years ago 


There was an exercise in 83 where Russia thought it was real and were looking at what steps to take

https://www.businessinsider.com/when-nuclear-war-almost-happened-2018-4?amp

It’s very good subject to research of which I had to do ten years ago


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Take your pick through all these

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1945–1989

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1990–2002

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003–present

And there is a list of “close calls”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls

Cuban missile crisis is the closest it’s been and that was 60 years ago


There was an exercise in 83 where Russia thought it was real and were looking at what steps to take

https://www.businessinsider.com/when-nuclear-war-almost-happened-2018-4?amp

It’s very good subject to research of which I had to do ten years ago
		
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You are just listing wars, most of which (if not all) are nothing like what is happening now. Unless you are telling me the war against the Iraqi Police and Kurdish Democrats brought us closer to nuclear war!?

Furthermore, your some of your links completely contradict your statement that we have never has a "sniff of nuclear action". Unless you simply mean the red button was never actually pushed, even though someone's finger might have had the big red button half pushed down? In which case, your comments provide me no comfort. I want the red button no where near Putin, I don't want him looking at it and I don't want his finger to make contact it whatsoever (or whoever he authorizes to do it)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2022)

From the wider stuff and concerns over which as individuals we have little control and hopefully won't impact us a terribly as they might.

A couple of rather important questions closer to us all for which I think clarification is required pretty asap.

Are Brits OK to go to Ukraine to fight or not (as part of some form of International Brigade)?

Is UK going to adopt the EU position of waiving visas and giving temporary refuge (for three years) for Ukrainian refugees?


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## rosecott (Feb 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From the wider stuff and concerns over which as individuals we have little control and hopefully won't impact us a terribly as they might.

A couple of rather important questions closer to us all for which I think clarification is required pretty asap.

*Are Brits OK to go to Ukraine to fight or not (as part of some form of International Brigade)?*

Is UK going to adopt the EU position of waiving visas and giving temporary refuge (for three years) for Ukrainian refugees?
		
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Liz Truss has already said "yes".


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A couple of rather important questions for the UK for which I think clarification is required pretty asap.

*Are Brits OK to go to Ukraine to fight or not?*

Is UK going to adopt the EU position of waiving visas and giving temporary refuge (for three years) for Ukrainian refugees?
		
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To me, that seemed like a ridiculously irresponsible, dangerous thing for our foreign secretary, Liz Truss to say. Clearly we want to avoid going to war with Russia in every single sense, yet our own foreign secretary publicly gives the green light for British citizens to go and fight against the Russians if they want to. How on earth would you expect the Russians to interpret that? Not well I'd imagine. Have any other western leaders given their citizens the green light to go and fight in Ukraine?


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## BiMGuy (Feb 28, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Liz Truss has already said "yes".
		
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Which is when things escalated slightly.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 28, 2022)

Speaking of stupid things Liz Truss has said:

https://interfax.com/newsroom/top-stories/74743/


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## Beezerk (Feb 28, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Speaking of stupid things Liz Truss has said:

https://interfax.com/newsroom/top-stories/74743/

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So Putin put things in high alert as a direct response to Liz Truss saying something brainless? 😂


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 28, 2022)

Interesting;

https://www.skysports.com/football/...trying-to-broker-peace-between-russia-ukraine


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And many people said he would and plenty gave warnings

Putin has been desperate to get them back under the Russian Flag

It wasn’t a surprise to many



how many times has a nuclear weapon been deployed in the last 70 years and in that same period how many conflicts have there been ? Countless and Russia has been included in a number of those conflicts

Can you even understand the step up from invading Ukraine to deploying a nuclear weapon which will result in world wide destruction - there have 100 other situations over the past 70 years which have been far worse and yet not a sniff of nuclear action

Russia will not deploy a nuclear warhead into Ukraine - and they certainly aren’t going to send one into a NATO country , threat levels in the Uk etc haven’t changed

Putin knows that some people will react and start to panic, the media will fuel that , propaganda will go into full flow - thankfully the majority won’t , and won’t bow down to him

His invasion into Ukraine is going wrong , he will punish Generals etc and a ceasefire will happen with some give and take within Ukraine borders.
		
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The risk has increased greatly. The last time the Russian strategic forces were at this alert level was during the Cuban crisis. You don't deploy strategic forces. They are permanently deployed, they just need a target point and launch approval.

Edit: MAD only works as a deterrent if all parties with their fingers on the button aren't mad.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 28, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			He will probably use the talks to buy time and then blame Ukraine for some strange atrocity and carry on his attack. Those are the words of the ex NATO adviser on the radio this morning btw not mine.
Putin has lost the plot, he now seems to be acting as a total psychopath, it does make you wonder how much support he has in the Kremlin.
		
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This although any time bought gives other countries time to send one or two military items. If anyone in Ukraine has Amazon prime and they are sent through Amazon the Ukrainian’s will be armed to the teeth tomorrow


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## Tashyboy (Feb 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			On a lighter note, these two stories came out about the hugely impressive Ukranian President this morning. 1/ He won the Ukranian version of Strictly. 2/ He was the voice of Paddington in the Ukranian versions.  (he used to be an actor) Paddington v the Russians. In a story of horror you need little bright spots.
		
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Marmalade Butties to be eaten at snap time during the peace talks me finks 👍


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## GB72 (Feb 28, 2022)

Interesting that Switzerland has adopted the full set of EU sanctions. Suspect that has hit a few people as my thought would be that there would be quite a bit of money stashed there just in case there were any issues with the Russian banks.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2022)




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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 28, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Marmalade Butties to be eaten at snap time during the peace talks me finks 👍
		
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Every little helps.

One thing I was thinking, not Paddington related. Putin needs an out at some stage, we hope. If he is not going to walk through Ukraine he may either commit all sorts of horrors as retribution or he needs a way to withdraw whilst looking strong, proclaiming some form of victory. Face, strength matters to someone like him, who rules through fear. Would he take the two eastern regions as enough? Would Ukraine accept that as a price for peace?


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## GB72 (Feb 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Every little helps.

One thing I was thinking, not Paddington related. Putin needs an out at some stage, we hope. If he is not going to walk through Ukraine he may either commit all sorts of horrors as retribution or he needs a way to withdraw whilst looking strong, proclaiming some form of victory. Face, strength matters to someone like him, who rules through fear. Would he take the two eastern regions as enough? Would Ukraine accept that as a price for peace?
		
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I suspect that if it was put on the table that he could have control over the 2 eastern regions plus some sort of agreement on NATO membership then he would build that up as all he was looking for in the first place and call it quits. Not sure Ukraine would give up the regions so easily (maybe a referedum that would easily be controlled by Russia) but it would be an out that both could call a victory of sorts. It is the only peaceful way I can see out of this. Putin can keep hammering away with numbers until he wins or just flatten the country, Ukraine can hold on strongly for a period but not indefnitely. I suspect that this is the sort of deal that will end up on the table. Strangely perhaps a deal that sees Ukraine joing the EU but not NATO and so they have European defensive allies but it keeps the US out of it.


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## Junior (Feb 28, 2022)

Apparently there are talks being held.   Will either of them back down ?


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I suspect that if it was put on the table that he could have control over the 2 eastern regions plus some sort of agreement on NATO membership then he would build that up as all he was looking for in the first place and call it quits. Not sure Ukraine would give up the regions so easily (maybe a referedum that would easily be controlled by Russia) but it would be an out that both could call a victory of sorts. It is the only peaceful way I can see out of this. Putin can keep hammering away with numbers until he wins or just flatten the country, Ukraine can hold on strongly for a period but not indefnitely. I suspect that this is the sort of deal that will end up on the table. Strangely perhaps a deal that sees Ukraine joing the EU but not NATO and so they have European defensive allies but it keeps the US out of it.
		
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I can't see how he comes out of this well, apparently Finland and Sweden are now set to join NATO so even if a deal is made for Ukraine all he's actually achieved is to bring NATO even closer to the Russian border.


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I can't see how he comes out of this well, apparently Finland and Sweden are now set to join NATO so even if a deal is made for Ukraine all he's actually achieved is to bring NATO even closer to the Russian border.
		
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NATO has been on Russias border for years, Estonia, Latvia, Norway have borders with Russia. Turkey is about an hour's drive through Georgia away.


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

greenone said:



			NATO has been on Russias border for years, Estonia, Latvia, Norway have borders with Russia. Turkey is about an hour's drive through Georgia away.
		
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Yes, I know however it's the reason he's given for the invasion of Ukraine. Purely on the basis that it's encouraged other countries to join NATO means he's already lost face based on that argument.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I can't see how he comes out of this well, *apparently Finland and Sweden are now set to join NATO* so even if a deal is made for Ukraine all he's actually achieved is to bring NATO even closer to the Russian border.
		
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As I understand it, and I'm happy to be corrected, that 'set to join suggestion' came from Russian sources - so more 'diplomatic B-S'! Both countries already 'co-operate' with Nato and allow Nato exercises to take place on their land, while also maintaining a 'neutral' stance.


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Every little helps.

One thing I was thinking, not Paddington related. Putin needs an out at some stage, we hope. If he is not going to walk through Ukraine he may either commit all sorts of horrors as retribution or he needs a way to withdraw whilst looking strong, proclaiming some form of victory. Face, strength matters to someone like him, who rules through fear. Would he take the two eastern regions as enough? Would Ukraine accept that as a price for peace?
		
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I struggle to imagine Putin agreeing to anything that would also be acceptable to Ukraine. As you say, he needs to save face now, I really can't see how he does that and it only gets harder with the sanctions beginning to bite. With Russians feeling the pain, he needs to come back with something really worthwhile otherwise what was the point?!


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

Pretty horrendous videos/photos of Russia moving onto the next level of weapons with cluster bombs used in heavily residential areas including a kindergarten. These weapons are a violation of the Geneva Convention. Can't be any way back for Putin now.


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## Junior (Feb 28, 2022)

Ukraine have applied and requested immidiate acceptance into the EU.  Looks like Zelensky is poking Putin even more.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Pretty horrendous videos/photos of Russia moving onto the next level of weapons with cluster bombs used in heavily residential areas including a kindergarten. *These weapons are a violation of the Geneva Convention*. Can't be any way back for Putin now.
		
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Get your 'facts' straight!


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Gdt your 'facts' straight!
		
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I read that the use of these weapons were prohibited by the Geneva Convention against civilians. If that's wrong then fair enough but why don't you enlighten me whilst also sorting out your spelling.


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I read that the use of these weapons were prohibited by the Geneva Convention against civilians. If that's wrong then fair enough but why don't you enlighten me whilst also sorting out your spelling.
		
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There is a convention on cluster munitions but neither Russia or the US have signed up to it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I read that the use of these weapons were prohibited by the Geneva Convention against civilians. If that's wrong then fair enough but why don't you enlighten me whilst also sorting out your spelling.
		
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1. Convention on Cluster Munitions.
2. Unfortunately USSR wasn't a signtory to CCM!


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			1. Convention on Cluster Munitions.
2. Unfortunately USSR wasn't a signtory to CGM!
		
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I stand corrected. You could have simply put that in response to my post however.


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			1. Convention on Cluster Munitions.
2. Unfortunately USSR wasn't a signtory to CGM!
		
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USSR wasn't around to sign up to it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I read that the use of these weapons were prohibited by the Geneva Convention against civilians. If that's wrong then fair enough but why don't you enlighten me whilst also sorting out your spelling.
		
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Their use have been outlawed as such but Russia and USA didn’t sign up to anything. The USA haven’t used them for decades I believe but it seems with Russia having to rely on “older” arms they have resorted to cluster bombs 

The devastation from them being used in built up areas is shocking and there is going to be a lot of innocent collateral damage from them , they are looking like actions of someone running out of options.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 28, 2022)

Are there any sanctions on the other countries like Belarus that have helped Russia by using their land borders to invade Ukraine.?
If not why not?
They are complicit in this.


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are there any sanctions on the other countries like Belarus that have helped Russia by using their land borders to invade Ukraine.?
If not why not?
They are complicit in this.
		
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Yes they have, Belarus already had sanctions after forcing down the Ryanair flight last year.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are there any sanctions on the other countries like Belarus that have helped Russia by using their land borders to invade Ukraine.?
If not why not?
They are complicit in this.
		
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I think they may get banned from Eurovision as well.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

greenone said:



			USSR wasn't around to sign up to it.
		
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Agreed..Lazy (easier) typing!


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2022)

All Russian national/international football teams have been banned from FIFA/UEFA competitions. 

Obviously won't bother Putin but the Russian 'man in the street' isn't going to be happy about missing the WC etc.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			All Russian national/international football teams have been banned from FIFA/UEFA competitions.

Obviously won't bother Putin but the Russian 'man in the street' isn't going to be happy about missing the WC etc.
		
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They didn’t want to though.
They were shamed into it by the other countries refusing to play them.
Just money grabbers.


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## greenone (Feb 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			They didn’t want to though.
They were shamed into it by the other countries refusing to play them.
Just money grabbers.
		
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I think it was the request from the IOC that did it. The Olympic truce has been broken 3 times. Any guess which country it's been on each occasion?


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			They didn’t want to though.
They were shamed into it by the other countries refusing to play them.
Just money grabbers.
		
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I'm not certain you are correct, but...
That's how 'diplomacy' works - at times!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not certain you are correct, but...
That's how 'diplomacy' works - at times!
		
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I thought they told Russia they had to play on a neutral ground with no fans.
Until the other teams said they were not playing them.
Might have miss heard in all the s… going on.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought they told Russia they had to play on a neutral ground with no fans.
Until the other teams said they were not playing them.
Might have miss heard in all the s… going on.

Click to expand...

That was the message yesterday, but now its a total ban from all competitions both men & women, Champions league, Europa cup, everything

Joint statement from Fifa & Uefa, reckon someone had a word


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## DaveR (Feb 28, 2022)

All the sanctions are going to have a knock on effect in this country but that's a price I'm personally willing to pay if it brings an end to the war.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			All the sanctions are going to have a knock on effect in this country but that's a price I'm personally willing to pay if it brings an end to the war.
		
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When you see what these people in Ukraine are going through its heart breaking.  They really need our support.


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			All the sanctions are going to have a knock on effect in this country but that's a price I'm personally willing to pay if it brings an end to the war.
		
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Im not sure it brings an end to the war, if anything I think it only makes putin more entrenched in his position.

However, I fully agree standing up to Russia in this way is the right thing to do. Cost hikes or otherwise


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## AmandaJR (Feb 28, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			When you see what these people in Ukraine are going through its heart breaking.  They really need our support.
		
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I know there's lots of similar operations but a woman in the village who is Romanian is organising a supply truck to her home nation for refugees. One of the items in demand are sweets for the children to have a little bit of joy so I have a large box of bumper bags of Swizzels on their way - hope they have good teeth! Wish I could see their face when they bite into a Refresher chew


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			Which has just been everything that has been said in the media.

Just like when our troops invaded Iraq on that basis of ‘weapons of mass destruction’

Bet you believed that also mate
		
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No member of the armed forces reported that there were ‘weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, in fact the exact opposite was said.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Putin has never fought any actual wars, only special operations.

Invading Crimea with a 1 million populace or fighing a proxy war in Syria using Syrian Militia, is a world away from a full on invasion of a country of 45 million people.

There are making a total hash of this. They are even unable to keep supply lines open on there own boarder crossings.

One things for certain. Even if they manage to overthrow the Ukrainian government, the reputation of the ruskie armed forces is in tatters.

Spetsnaz my arse 😂
		
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Not forgetting Chechen war and their attempt in Afghanistan.

Reports of an armoured column getting lost and running out of fuel makes I larf, and farmers towing of 9K33 Osa. The Russians may in the end get there with overwhelming numbers but it ant going to be done by professionals.

Another argument against conscription.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			It’s too late for him to save face. Putin is the most hated man since Adolf Hitler. All or nothing. Nukes being prepped in Belarus as we speak. .
		
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Just catching up but ‘source’ would be good as there are no nukes in Belarus.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

Bamberdele21 said:



			...
Just like when our troops invaded Iraq on that basis of ‘weapons of mass destruction’
...
		
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Old Skier said:



			No member of the armed forces reported that there were ‘weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, in fact the exact opposite was said.
		
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Those are not mutually exclusive statements!


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## IainP (Feb 28, 2022)

I was reflecting over the weekend,  some of you may have seen the groups reported in the media making home-made weapons in preparation.  The pragmatist in me was thinking, bad idea - a load of civvies up against trained soldiers with proper weapons.  But then, if I happened to be caught up in that situation,  would I be doing the same thing - maybe.
Just re-enforced how unrelatable much of this is.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Just catching up but ‘source’ would be good as there are no nukes in Belarus.
		
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Not doubting it, power stations aside, but I'd be interested in _your_ source too!
However, this article might the source of the 'nukes in Belarus' suggestion. Not the most reliable 'source' though - but 2 steps better than Daily Mail!
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/eu-warns-belarus-opening-door-to-russian-nukes-after-vote


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

greenone said:



			The last time the Russian strategic forces were at this alert level was during the Cuban crisis. You don't deploy strategic forces.
		
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1982 or 84 (memory fails), fault in the Russian computer systems, many of us were deployed to our front line positions in the Fulda gap fully equipped. Few years ago Channel 4 did a great documentary about it.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not doubting it, power stations aside, but I'd be interested in _your_ source too!
However, this article might the source of the 'nukes in Belarus' suggestion. Not the most reliable 'source' though!
		
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Well I supposed some of the smaller mobile ones might have been moved in bit with today’s satellites that would have made the headlines. Apart from the subs, all the major launch sites have already been plotted and in most cases visited under UN agreements signed by all nuclear powers excluding N Korea.

PS, my personal view would be that nobody will be pressing any buttons soon but I suppose it would solve any climate change issues.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Well I supposed some of the smaller mobile ones might have been moved in bit with today’s satellites that would have made the headlines. Apart from the subs, all the major launch sites have already been plotted and in most cases visited under UN agreements signed by all nuclear powers excluding N Korea.

PS, my personal view would be that nobody will be pressing any buttons soon but I suppose it would solve any climate change issues.
		
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Just added the link to the article.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just added the link to the article. 

Click to expand...

Cheers, there’s that old Chestnut “could” again.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Cheers, there’s that old Chestnut “could” again.
		
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Lukshenko certainly owes Putin. And remember the incident of the Ryanair plane being ordered to land while in Belarus airpace for the arrest of a journalist!


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## Tashyboy (Feb 28, 2022)

I think one thing that Putin has done is strengthen the European stance against him. Germany has for the first time sent arms and increased its gdp defence contribution. The EU is together in supplying weapons. Poland had agreed to use its territories as a transport hub to supply ukraines fight. The list goes on. I feel Putin is digging a massive hole in a corner. That said, it is a very clever person who knows how this will end. ☹️


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## IainP (Mar 1, 2022)

Seemingly large convoys are moving around unhindered. Lack of power & food likely to be impacting the residents. Grim.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2022)

As much as I support sanctions I am not sure what the objective is and outcome desired if the target is ultimately someone so all-powerful, controlling, feared, narcissistic, self-serving and quite possibly a bit unstable, who, when completely cornered might act irrationally (in our eyes though not his own) and in deluded desperation.


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## Captainron (Mar 1, 2022)

Putin has really put himself in a no win situation here and that is super dangerous. The Russian people are the ones that now have to stop him. Needs a coup or the like. 

Bad situation


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## Neilds (Mar 1, 2022)

IainP said:



			I was reflecting over the weekend,  some of you may have seen the groups reported in the media making home-made weapons in preparation.  The pragmatist in me was thinking, bad idea - a load of civvies up against trained soldiers with proper weapons.  But then, if I happened to be caught up in that situation,  would I be doing the same thing - maybe.
Just re-enforced how unrelatable much of this is.
		
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I thought something similar yesterday, especially when the BBC were interviewing a British dentist who was preparing to go out to Ukraine to fight .  When asked if he had any military experience, he paused a while and said " A little,................I was in the Cadets".  I can't help thinking that he will be more of a hinderance to the Ukrainian forces than much help.  Will end up getting people killed - and not necessarily the enemy.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As much as I support sanctions I am not sure what the objective is and outcome desired if the target is ultimately someone so all-powerful, controlling, feared, narcissistic, self-serving and quite possibly a bit unstable, who, when completely cornered might act irrationally (in our eyes though not his own) and in deluded desperation.
		
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What is the alternative? But yes, it is a really difficult situation. The most dangerous point, as expressed on the news today, will be when Putin is backed into a corner he can't get out of. He isn't going to go off and live a quiet retirement.


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## tugglesf239 (Mar 1, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Putin has really put himself in a no win situation here and that is super dangerous. The Russian people are the ones that now have to stop him. Needs a coup or the like.

Bad situation
		
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Hopefully a Valkyrie…


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## RichA (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What is the alternative? But yes, it is a really difficult situation. The most dangerous point, as expressed on the news today, will be when Putin is backed into a corner he can't get out of. He isn't going to go off and live a quiet retirement.
		
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Exactly. There are only 2 alternatives: do nothing or get involved militarily and they aren't seriously acceptable.


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## RichA (Mar 1, 2022)

Neilds said:



			I thought something similar yesterday, especially when the BBC were interviewing a British dentist who was preparing to go out to Ukraine to fight .  When asked if he had any military experience, he paused a while and said " A little,................I was in the Cadets".  I can't help thinking that he will be more of a hinderance to the Ukrainian forces than much help.  Will end up getting people killed - and not necessarily the enemy.
		
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If he can administer anaesthetics and do nursing duties, he'll be worth his weight in gold. Armies aren't just infantry.


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			If he can administer anaesthetics and do nursing duties, he'll be worth his weight in gold. Armies aren't just infantry.
		
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Indeed. There was an interview with a guy travelling out there yesterday, he has no military experience but feels strongly that he needs to do something. He doesn't expect/want to end up on the front line however he said he'd take the place of a trained Ukrainian doing menial tasks wherever he could. Not every role is a combat one.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As much as I support sanctions I am not sure what the objective is and outcome desired if the target is ultimately someone so all-powerful, controlling, feared, narcissistic, self-serving and quite possibly a bit unstable, who, when completely cornered might act irrationally (in our eyes though not his own) and in deluded desperation.
		
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What's the alternative.  We can only hope that sanctions create such disruption to Russians that they will turn against their politicians and remove them.  Maybe the Military and Politicians will decide Putin is too much of a loose cannon and strap him down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			What's the alternative.  We can only hope that sanctions create such disruption to Russians that they will turn against their politicians and remove them.  Maybe the Military and Politicians will decide Putin is too much of a loose cannon and strap him down.
		
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I don't know - but that's not what I'm asking - which is about the *outcome *being sought by the application of these very severe sanctions.  What do we want to happen and how likely is it to be achieved?

And there is in fact a third alternative to what's being done in addition to 'do nothing' and direct military intervention - and please - I am not suggesting that I would prefer it to what is being done.  That further alternative would be gradual and increasingly restrictive sanctions.  But of course whether that is a realistic alternative or not would very much depend upon the *outcome *we wish to see and how long we would be willing to work towards it.  And that is why I ask the question on the outcome and how likely we are to achieve it.

The rat when cornered will fight.  The current strategy seems to be to corner the rat.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

One thing that puzzles me is that I have not really seen an fighter jets being used in the war, at least by the Russians. Maybe they are being used in abundance outside the cities, away from the cameras, but I thought their air force would be a lot more visible in this war. I've seen plenty of tanks, a few helicopters and other general military road vehicles.

I did read an interesting article that provide some possible reasons that the Russian fighter jets were not being used up to now, and gave reasons such as:

Limited weapons stockpile for them
Many of their weaponry from aircrafts cannot be fired with accuracy
Risk of friendly fire
Lack of flying hours for trained Russian pilots
I wonder if Russia are simply holding back, but likely to release their air force into cities at some point in the future.


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## phillarrow (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know - but that's not what I'm asking - which is about the *outcome *being sought by the application of these very severe sanctions.  What do we want to happen and how likely is it to be achieved?

And there is in fact a third alternative to what's being done in addition to 'do nothing' and direct military intervention - and please - I am not suggesting that I would prefer it to what is being done.  That further alternative would be gradual and increasingly restrictive sanctions.  But of course whether that is a realistic alternative or not would very much depend upon the *outcome *we wish to see and how long we would be willing to work towards it.  And that is why I ask the question on the outcome and how likely we are to achieve it.

The rat when cornered will fight.  The current strategy seems to be to corner the rat.
		
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The intended outcome of the sanctions is not to hurt Putin, or to hurt Russian people - the West knows Putin doesn't care about the plight of the Russian people. The intended outcome is to hurt those close to Putin who might be able to influence his thinking. If these people start losing millions, and their freedom to travel and trade, there is a chance that they will either try to persuade him to stop, or turn on him completely and have him ousted. Putin can't be ousted by the people unless there is a full scale revolution, but he can be ousted by those within the corridors of power...and he WILL be ousted by those at some point if he doesn't back down and the sanctions start to bite.

Not often I agree with the tactics of any government, but in this case I think they're getting it spot on.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know - but that's not what I'm asking - which is about the *outcome *being sought by the application of these very severe sanctions.  What do we want to happen and how likely is it to be achieved?

And there is in fact a third alternative to what's being done in addition to 'do nothing' and direct military intervention - and please - I am not suggesting that I would prefer it to what is being done.  That further alternative would be gradual and increasingly restrictive sanctions.  But of course whether that is a realistic alternative or not would very much depend upon the *outcome *we wish to see and how long we would be willing to work towards it.  And that is why I ask the question on the outcome and how likely we are to achieve it.

The rat when cornered will fight.  The current strategy seems to be to corner the rat.
		
Click to expand...

I answered your question quite clearly.  The sanctions are being used to create financial hardship in Russia which will hopefully put pressure on the Politicians and Military to remove Putin and inject some pragmatism into the current situation.   I can't understand why you don't see that.

A rat might fight back when cornered but so will a lion and that's what the brave people of Ukraine are doing.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			One thing that puzzles me is that I have not really seen an fighter jets being used in the war, at least by the Russians. Maybe they are being used in abundance outside the cities, away from the cameras, but I thought their air force would be a lot more visible in this war. I've seen plenty of tanks, a few helicopters and other general military road vehicles.

I did read an interesting article that provide some possible reasons that the Russian fighter jets were not being used up to now, and gave reasons such as:

Limited weapons stockpile for them
Many of their weaponry from aircrafts cannot be fired with accuracy
Risk of friendly fire
Lack of flying hours for trained Russian pilots
I wonder if Russia are simply holding back, but likely to release their air force into cities at some point in the future.
		
Click to expand...

Ive seen a viral video of a fighter jet firing rockets in Ukraine, so there is some use but you are right, its a very boots on the ground operation thus far!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			One thing that puzzles me is that I have not really seen an fighter jets being used in the war, at least by the Russians. Maybe they are being used in abundance outside the cities, away from the cameras, but I thought their air force would be a lot more visible in this war. I've seen plenty of tanks, a few helicopters and other general military road vehicles.

I did read an interesting article that provide some possible reasons that the Russian fighter jets were not being used up to now, and gave reasons such as:

Limited weapons stockpile for them
Many of their weaponry from aircrafts cannot be fired with accuracy
Risk of friendly fire
Lack of flying hours for trained Russian pilots
I wonder if Russia are simply holding back, but likely to release their air force into cities at some point in the future.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Russia don't yet want those kind of military tactics at this point.  The use of Ariel bombing and heavy artillery on cities create total devastation as we have witnessed recently in Syria.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*I answered your question quite clearly.*  The sanctions are being used to create financial hardship in Russia which will hopefully put pressure on the Politicians and Military to remove Putin and inject some pragmatism into the current situation.   I can't understand why you don't see that.

A rat might fight back when cornered but so will a lion and that's what the brave people of Ukraine are doing.
		
Click to expand...

I know you did, but you asked about my alternatives and I was actually asking about the desired outcome.

And please don't misunderstand, I *do *want the same outcome...Putin gone.  But how long that might take and what happens meanwhile (inc. what Putin might resort to to keep in power) I don't know, as the hoped for timescales are surely a key part of the outcome we (both/all) desire.

So for instance, Putin might go in 5yrs time after 5 yrs of Russian occupation of Ukraine, terrible military conflict, and many millions of refugees having to be accommodated across Europe and RoW - is that an acceptable outcome. I don't think so...but that is why the timescales are surely important,


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			One thing that puzzles me is that I have not really seen an fighter jets being used in the war, at least by the Russians. Maybe they are being used in abundance outside the cities, away from the cameras, but I thought their air force would be a lot more visible in this war. I've seen plenty of tanks, a few helicopters and other general military road vehicles.

I did read an interesting article that provide some possible reasons that the Russian fighter jets were not being used up to now, and gave reasons such as:

Limited weapons stockpile for them
Many of their weaponry from aircrafts cannot be fired with accuracy
Risk of friendly fire
Lack of flying hours for trained Russian pilots
I wonder if Russia are simply holding back, but likely to release their air force into cities at some point in the future.
		
Click to expand...

I had the same puzzling thoughts - along with wonder about the slow speed of movement of the vast number of troops assembled.
I don't believe any of those 'reasons' above are anywhere near valid for this situation - and seems more likely to be propoganda type 'reporting'. There was certainly some Air Force activity in the 2014 annexation of Crimea though.
The entire exercise seems to be more a demonstration of strength rather than actual battles/conquest. 
Maybe the goal is to 'recover' the provinces with significant Russian presence - the ones near Crimea/Russia and Belarus - via negotiation rather than conquest.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know you did, but you asked about my alternatives and I was actually asking about the desired outcome.

And please don't misunderstand, I *do *want the same outcome...Putin gone.  But how long that might take and what happens meanwhile (inc. what Putin might resort to to keep in power) I don't know, as the hoped for timescales are surely a key part of the outcome we (both/all) desire.

So for instance, Putin might go in 5yrs time after 5 yrs of Russian occupation of Ukraine, terrible military conflict, and many millions of refugees having to be accommodated across Europe and RoW - is that an acceptable outcome. I don't think so...but that is why the timescales are surely important,
		
Click to expand...

The timescales are what they are if we want shorter timescales then there are only two options: Wage war on Russia or give up to them.  Neither of these are preferred so we are left with the only other option which the western world are fairly United with and that's what we're doing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The timescales are what they are if we want shorter timescales then there are only two options: Wage war on Russia or give up to them.  Neither of these are preferred so we are left with the only other option which the western world are fairly United with and that's what we're doing.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed it is.  But normally I wouldn't implement an action plan without having a very good idea of how long things were going to take for it to have the desired effect - and if I didn't know I'd have a load of contingences in place for different timescales for the issue continuing.  I fear the West is rather playing things by ear - making up our contingencies as we go along.  Maybe that's all that can be done, but it is not a comfortable place to be when you know that the target of your action plan is a ticking timebomb and you have no idea how much time is on the clock.


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  But normally I wouldn't implement an action plan without having a very good idea of how long things were going to take for it to have the desired effect - and if I didn't know I'd have a load of contingences in place for different timescales for the issue continuing.  *I fear the West is rather playing things by ear - making up our contingencies as we go along*.  Maybe that's all that can be done, but it is not a comfortable place to be when you know that the target of your action plan is a ticking timebomb and you have no idea how much time is on the clock.
		
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To be fair that might well be the case, you're having to walk a very fine line of supporting Ukraine but not getting to the point where Putin presses the button. Listening to a guy on the radio who has a background in Russian military he was trying to get across that anyone who doesn't think that Russia would use nukes is incorrect. Whilst they may be viewed as a weapon of last resort in the West, in Russian they are a bomb "with a bigger bang" according to him and they're viewed as part of conventional warfare. A scary thought that the escalation could happen very quickly and once it does it'll be hard to reign in.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 1, 2022)

Well this is so reassuring 😂

Sadiq Khan has said that “London is well-prepared if Russia launches a nuclear attack.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 1, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Well this is so reassuring 😂

*Sadiq Khan* has said that “London is well-prepared if Russia launches a nuclear attack.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure his surname is missing a T...


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  But normally I wouldn't implement an action plan without having a very good idea of how long things were going to take for it to have the desired effect - and if I didn't know I'd have a load of contingences in place for different timescales for the issue continuing.  I fear the West is rather playing things by ear - making up our contingencies as we go along.  Maybe that's all that can be done, but it is not a comfortable place to be when you know that the target of your action plan is a ticking timebomb and you have no idea how much time is on the clock.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really think you are asking questions that western leaders haven't. People that include experts in conflicts like this?

As others have said, if you want to end this quickly, start WW3 or concede to Russia, both of which would be disastrous.

Or, make things as difficult and painful for Russia. Have western countries unite and show our strength in unity. However, what else can you expect? For someone to say "this will be over by 23rd April 2023". How can you expect a timescale, especially when Russia and Putin are determined to put up a fight.

As for contingency plans. I am pretty sure there are hundreds of contingency plans for every single scenario they can try and imagine. That is what I would expect from leading military and political experts around the world anyway.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 1, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Well this is so reassuring 😂

Sadiq Khan has said that “London is well-prepared if Russia launches a nuclear attack.
		
Click to expand...

Might be ok for them but what about Joe public goodbye!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

I see Russian athletes have now been banned from competing. The world of sport has very much reacted to this war, and I very much see why these decisions have been made. However, got me thinking. If individual athletes have been banned from athletics, should the same apply for other sports. Should Russian tennis players, football players, etc be banned? 

Furthermore, is it actually the right response. I saw the other day a Russian tennis player wrote "Please No War" on the camera during a match. We need to.somehow get the message through to normal Russian people as possible. Sport can be powerful, and banning Russia completely might help.do this. But, if Russian athletes and teams could still compete, but with the name Russia and flag clearly removed and continually explained, would this send a more powerful response to Russian people? Especially if their sports stars give out strong messages to stop the war?

We need to find innovative ways to get messages through to Russian people, especially as the state isolate them more from external media sources.


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I see Russian athletes have now been banned from competing. The world of sport has very much reacted to this war, and I very much see why these decisions have been made. However, got me thinking. If individual athletes have been banned from athletics, should the same apply for other sports. Should Russian tennis players, football players, etc be banned?

Furthermore, is it actually the right response. I saw the other day a Russian tennis player wrote "Please No War" on the camera during a match. We need to.somehow get the message through to normal Russian people as possible. Sport can be powerful, and banning Russia completely might help.do this. But, if Russian athletes and teams could still compete, but with the name Russia and flag clearly removed and continually explained, would this send a more powerful response to Russian people? Especially if their sports stars give out strong messages to stop the war?

We need to find innovative ways to get messages through to Russian people, especially as the state isolate them more from external media sources.
		
Click to expand...

Ban Russian teams, but not individuals - unless clearly 'state representatives' - imo.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498722314543898629


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 1, 2022)

That second video doesn't look good at all. Not that the first wasn't terrible but that looked very much like a mushroom on exploding. Is there any confirmation anywhere that it wasn't what it looked like


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## Jimaroid (Mar 1, 2022)

It’s an ammo dump most likely. Possibly vacuum bomb but unconfirmed either way. A large air explosion whatever it was but fairly conventional.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

I have the LiveScore App, good one to keep track of footy scores. Even they have sent out a notification to say they will not be showing any scores from Russian football competitions for the foreseeable future.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

It's probably a big Thermobaric bomb.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498722314543898629

Click to expand...

It’s a vacuum bomb - deadly when used and mainly done when trying to destroy buildings and occupants


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

Are these videos confirmed?

Watching the main news, they are focused on the 40mile unit moving towards Kiev, along with the bombing of the TV Tower and the bombing of that building in the other city in northern Ukraine.

However, I have not seen any reports on those images (not watching it 24/7, so maybe missed it).

However, with such a huge explosion, surely that would be a main headline on Sky News if it was verified!?


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			One thing that puzzles me is that I have not really seen an fighter jets being used in the war, at least by the Russians. Maybe they are being used in abundance outside the cities, away from the cameras, but I thought their air force would be a lot more visible in this war. I've seen plenty of tanks, a few helicopters and other general military road vehicles.

I did read an interesting article that provide some possible reasons that the Russian fighter jets were not being used up to now, and gave reasons such as:

Limited weapons stockpile for them
Many of their weaponry from aircrafts cannot be fired with accuracy
Risk of friendly fire
Lack of flying hours for trained Russian pilots
I wonder if Russia are simply holding back, but likely to release their air force into cities at some point in the future.
		
Click to expand...

One other reason was the amount of ground to air weapons and missiles sent to Ukraine. Russia has a bad history with Stingers.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are these videos confirmed?

Watching the main news, they are focused on the 40mile unit moving towards Kiev, along with the bombing of the TV Tower and the bombing of that building in the other city in northern Ukraine.

However, I have not seen any reports on those images (not watching it 24/7, so maybe missed it).

However, with such a huge explosion, surely that would be a main headline on Sky News if it was verified!?
		
Click to expand...

It takes time to verify. There are multiple videos appearing and they appear to corroborate. Mainstream media may not show them in case people jump to the wrong conclusions about a large shockwave anyway. 

We may be wrong of course but all the signs point towards the reality of the real army turning up now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			deadly when used
		
Click to expand...

Aren't most bombs. Is this a sign Putin is starting to up the stakes


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I had the same puzzling thoughts - along with wonder about the slow speed of movement of the vast number of troops assembled.
I don't believe any of those 'reasons' above are anywhere near valid for this situation - and seems more likely to be propoganda type 'reporting'. There was certainly some Air Force activity in the 2014 annexation of Crimea though.
The entire exercise seems to be more a demonstration of strength rather than actual battles/conquest.
Maybe the goal is to 'recover' the provinces with significant Russian presence - the ones near Crimea/Russia and Belarus - via negotiation rather than conquest.
		
Click to expand...

Major part of the convoy is soft skin vehicles which would be very vulnerable to attack so I would assume a huge clearance exercise of foot either side of the convoy.


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a vacuum bomb - deadly when used and mainly done when trying to destroy buildings and occupants
		
Click to expand...

America reports that no confirmation of a vacuum or thermobaric weapon being used. I suspect that with the amount of eyes in the skys in the area they would soon, I hope, be able to tell.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 1, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			America reports that no confirmation of a vacuum or thermobaric weapon being used. I suspect that with the amount of eyes in the skys in the area they would soon, I hope, be able to tell.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not beyond the realms of possibility of it being more media propaganda and fake stories - the whole conflict so far is full of them


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## Smiffy (Mar 1, 2022)

What worries me is that if Putin doesn't give a toss about his own people, do you really think he cares a jot about what happens to my next door neighbour???


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			What worries me is that if Putin doesn't give a toss about his own people, do you really think he cares a jot about what happens to my next door neighbour???
		
Click to expand...

What size boots does he take


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## Robster59 (Mar 1, 2022)

My concern is that Putin has miscalculated how quickly they could do this, or the reaction from most other countries.  However, he is not someone who will back down or admit he made a mistake.  A sensible person may not take it too far.  We can't guarantee that of Putin.  He's nuts.


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2022)

Amazing clips of rows of Ukraine civilians standing in front of and stopping the Russian convoy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 1, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Amazing clips of rows of Ukraine civilians standing in front of and stopping the Russian convoy.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498574275699167235


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 1, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Amazing clips of rows of Ukraine civilians standing in front of and stopping the Russian convoy.
		
Click to expand...

Takes some bottle to stand in front of a tank
Especially after what happened to the woman in her car.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Takes some bottle to stand in front of a tank
Especially after what happened to the woman in her car.
		
Click to expand...

Reminds me of this man in China:


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Reminds me of this man in China:






Click to expand...

Yes but he’s never been seen since I heard somewhere.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but he’s never been seen since I heard somewhere.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe, he was pulled away by other civies but what a man.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe, he way pulled away by other civies but what a man.
		
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Yes huge respect to him and the Ukraine people.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 2, 2022)

FIA another gutless organization, they are allowing Russian driver Mazepin to compete. 

His father is a major financial backer to the Hass team, and has ties with Putin so no surprise really. 

All about the money …. again.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 2, 2022)

Rlburnside said:



			FIA another gutless organization, they are allowing Russian driver Mazepin to compete.

His father is a major financial backer to the Hass team, and has ties with Putin so no surprise really.

All about the money …. again.
		
Click to expand...

Give it 24-48 hours and they may follow suit in the same way UEFA/FIFA did. These are spineless organisations without contact with the real world, so it takes a day or two of outrage for them to change their position.


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I see Russian athletes have now been banned from competing. The world of sport has very much reacted to this war, and I very much see why these decisions have been made. However, got me thinking. If individual athletes have been banned from athletics, should the same apply for other sports. Should Russian tennis players, football players, etc be banned?

Furthermore, is it actually the right response. I saw the other day a Russian tennis player wrote "Please No War" on the camera during a match. We need to.somehow get the message through to normal Russian people as possible. Sport can be powerful, and banning Russia completely might help.do this. But, if Russian athletes and teams could still compete, but with the name Russia and flag clearly removed and continually explained, would this send a more powerful response to Russian people? Especially if their sports stars give out strong messages to stop the war?

We need to find innovative ways to get messages through to Russian people, especially as the state isolate them more from external media sources.
		
Click to expand...

I think you're right about this. 

There *is* a difference in that athletes are there representing their country, whereas footballers are representing a club. However, it's not really fair to exclude some sportspeople but not others. The athletes could easily compete under the neutral IOC banner, as has happened before and as it should have been as a consequence of the doping scandal - the idea that the Russian Olympic Committee were somehow *not* representing Russia is ludicrous!

I guess the difficulty will always be about where we draw the line? Do we allow Russian clubs into European football (for example) because they are representing a city, not a country? Or do we only allow Russians in team sports if they play for a non-Russian club?


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## Imurg (Mar 2, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Give it 24-48 hours and they may follow suit in the same way UEFA/FIFA did. These are spineless organisations without contact with the real world, so it takes a day or two of outrage for them to change their position.
		
Click to expand...

Do they ban all Russian footballers, tennis players etc etc from playing? 
On the football front, yes ban the teams but what about Russian players in other countries and teams?
If they're not "representing" Russia should they be banned?
Say, a Russian playing footy for Millwall or something...?
Not saying they shouldn't be..just thinking out loud..


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

They should ban all Russian participation. No exceptions. Sporting individuals can suffer alive whilst the Ukrainians suffer being dead.

I have no sympathy.


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## Imurg (Mar 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			They should ban all Russian participation. No exceptions. Sporting individuals can suffer alive whilst the Ukrainians suffer being dead.

I have no sympathy.
		
Click to expand...

Then it has to be a blanket ban....no exceptions....


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			They should ban all Russian participation. No exceptions. Sporting individuals can suffer alive whilst the Ukrainians suffer being dead.

I have no sympathy.
		
Click to expand...

I get your view, but that will just further engender anti-West sentiment amongst the general population. A huge part of any modern conflict is the battle for hearts and minds and we have to be seen to be acting in a way that makes normal Russian citizens understand that they are part of something bigger than Russia. If not, it just makes it easier for those who wish to create a population that is firmly committed to hating the West/Democracy.

Don't forget also, it was the idea that an entire people should be punished that led to huge sanctions against Germany after WW1...which then provided the melting pot in which Hitler was able to rise to power and act in the way he did. We study History for a reason, it's just a shame that we rarely seem to learn from it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2022)

S



Robster59 said:



			My concern is that Putin has miscalculated how quickly they could do this, or the reaction from most other countries.  However, he is not someone who will back down or admit he made a mistake.  A sensible person may not take it too far.  We can't guarantee that of Putin.  He's nuts.
		
Click to expand...

So at some point, with all those around Putin screaming about the pain and very severe damage the sanctions are causing them and the country, does the West ease things slightly and tell Putin to withdraw or standdown now that he knows the pain the West can and will inflict for as long as it takes.  

I am not sure that mantaining without any let up at all, the absolute maximum pain on Putin will bring about the desired outcome without him first doing things we consider completely unconscionable. He needs a get out - I've heard it referred to as an exit ramp - a way out that he might take.   With sanctions and other measures as tight as they are, and as they further tighten, there is absolutely no room for him to move.  And if the West eases and he doesn't and nothing changes, then the screw is tightened back up.

Simply nervous about where things are leading given the West is dealing with someone who is a controlling narcissist and, as you say, quite possibly nuts...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			S
So at some point, with all those around Putin screaming about the pain and damage the sanctions are causing them and the country, does the West ease things slightly and tell Putin to withdraw or standdown now that he knows the pain the West can and will inflict for as long as it takes. 

I am not sure that maintaining, without any let up at all, the absolute maximum pain on Putin will bring about the desired outcome without him first doing things we consider completely unconscionable. He needs a get out - I've heard it referred to as an exit ramp - a way out that he might take.   With sanctions and other measures as tight as they are, and as they further tighten, there is absolutely no room for him to move.  And the West eases and he doesn't and nothing changes, then the screw is tightened back up.
		
Click to expand...

While he is still continuing the invasion and innocents are dying then I am all for ramping the measures up. The ball is firmly in his court and I think he knows (or should know/be told) and he needs t make the first move by halting the advance now. After that there can be discussions about relinquishing the towns, cities and installations taken and then talks about Ukraine as a whole and future threats. We're a long, long way from any of those, without any indication of even a pause happening so sorry but I disagree and we do all we can to throttle Putin's plans and economy


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

I have no sympathy for any Russian, sportsperson or otherwise. There are over 144 million people living in Russia. I have visited the country several times and they are, on the whole, happy to go with the flow even though many are aware of what is going on in their country.

Allowing athletes to compete under a neutral flag is a cop out.

This is just my opinion obviously and it may be controversial but the IOC gave Hitler the world stage and we seem to forget that history has a nasty habit of repeating itself.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I get your view, but that will just further engender anti-West sentiment amongst the general population. A huge part of any modern conflict is the battle for hearts and minds and we have to be seen to be acting in a way that makes normal Russian citizens understand that they are part of something bigger than Russia. If not, it just makes it easier for those who wish to create a population that is firmly committed to hating the West/Democracy.
		
Click to expand...

I would welcome anyone defecting from Russia that wanted to compete under another nation's flag. We, the west, can win hearts and minds through sanctions and immigration. But that is a banned topic on this forum.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing


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## Imurg (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
		
Click to expand...

The problem there is that many, many Russians don't support what is going on and they're being hit with massive inflation and other sanctions..
Where do you draw the line..?
It is a tough one.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
		
Click to expand...

Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO.  Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 2, 2022)

I guess you have to consider that the regional, national & international sporting organisations are all "legal entities" - and therefore can be subject to litigation. They, presumably, therefore have to consider upon what legal basis they can effect bans and preclude people/organisationsfrom paricipating. And also whether they can survive any potential legal challenge. I suspect banning some body or other because their national leader is a pathalogical nutter isnt an adequately legal reason. It's  all very well us wanting instant bans, but are these sporting organisations going to rashly take decisions that could potentially bring them to their knees as an organisation? 

Personally i think banning is the right thing to do - but i can see why some aren't jumping straight in.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
		
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I agree with the sentiment but I can't reconcile any difference between an individual and a team of individuals. If you ban the team you are banning the individuals.

I'm also trying to put my stance into context of where we stand in the UK. Russian money funds us blues. I've never been comfortable with that and even more so now. I think morally we have to cut it off completely and accept it's going to be painful but "right". Of course, it won't happen, but I think it should.


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO.  Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.
		
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I'd like to think I'd be someone who would stand up and publicly condemn my government in this scenario. I definitely would as a Brit...but would I/we/you feel quite so brave if we knew that we would be facing assassination for doing so? Standing up to Putin hasn't worked out well for Novolny, Pussy Riot, the Skripals etc. 

I'm not saying you definitely wouldn't have the courage to do this, but I think it's easy to say we would from the safety of the UK.


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## RichA (Mar 2, 2022)

This isn't a "war" against all Russians. It's a "war" against Putin and his supporters.
Making it generically anti-Russian might force a huge number of people to pick a side out of national pride, even if they don't believe in it. It might even help Putin's propaganda.


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I agree with the sentiment but I can't reconcile any difference between an individual and a team of individuals. If you ban the team you are banning the individuals.

I'm also trying to put my stance into context of where we stand in the UK. Russian money funds us blues. I've never been comfortable with that and even more so now. I think morally we have to cut it off completely and accept it's going to be painful but "right". Of course, it won't happen, but I think it should.
		
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It might! Rumours this morning that he's trying to sell Chelsea to a Swiss(?) billionaire. Your link with Russian money might be over sooner than you think.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			It might! Rumours this morning that he's trying to sell Chelsea to a Swiss(?) billionaire. Your link with Russian money might be over sooner than you think.
		
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Wrong blue.


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Wrong blue. 

Click to expand...

 Oh! Sorry! Are you a Toffee?


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## greenone (Mar 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



 Oh! Sorry! Are you a Toffee?
		
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Usmanov has been sanctioned already.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

greenone said:



			Usmanov has been sanctioned already.
		
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And Moshiri is chairman of USM. The ties go much deeper and wider, we are covered in dirt.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I'd like to think I'd be someone who would stand up and publicly condemn my government in this scenario. I definitely would as a Brit...but would I/we/you feel quite so brave if we knew that we would be facing assassination for doing so? Standing up to Putin hasn't worked out well for Novolny, Pussy Riot, the Skripals etc.

I'm not saying you definitely wouldn't have the courage to do this, but I think it's easy to say we would from the safety of the UK.
		
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I saw a small piece of an interview a Russian billionaire gave earlier this week. I think he was at some sort of conference and was asked about the war. His reply, not word for word, was along the lines of he would like peace but please do not ask for more of an explanation. He has a family, employees in Russia, it is not safe to say more. 

Quite a sobering reply and perhaps one we need to remember. Not easy being Russian and disagreeing with the leadership, as you list.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saw a small piece of an interview a Russian billionaire gave earlier this week. I think he was at some sort of conference and was asked about the war. His reply, not word for word, was along the lines of he would like peace but please do not ask for more of an explanation. He has a family, employees in Russia, it is not safe to say more.

Quite a sobering reply and perhaps one we need to remember. Not easy being Russian and disagreeing with the leadership, as you list.
		
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I read similar about Abramovich when people were suggesting that, as an ally of Putin, he should be using his power and influence to get this sorted. The counter argument given was the Putin only has ally's up to a certain point and finding yourself in a goulag (or worse) wasn't overly enticing.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 2, 2022)

It’s easy to be brave and principled when you are an ordinary citizen sat typing at your keyboard.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO.  Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.
		
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It is such an easy thing to say on the comfort of your own keyboard, in a nation where we can effectively hound and disagree with politicians as much as we like (short of physically assaulting them).

Is it so easy in a society where, if you speak out against the government you can get arrested and tortured, or maybe even killed. Where Navalny, who tried to oppose Putin gets poisoned, luckily survives and as soon as he returns to Russia is put in a maximum security prison, and is allegedly tortured. Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.

In my opinion, we need as many Russian people being seen to oppose Putin and his regime. Sports stars are high profile. We often like to claim sports stars are role models when they've done something bad, simply so we can make them feel even more guilty. Well, if we genuinely believe they are role models, then why not use that position for good? As other means to speak to the Russian people. The fact that these sports stars are not actually in Russia, it will hopefully make them feel they can speak out without their lives being in immediate danger?

If you happened to find yourself living in Russia as an ex-pat, would you take to the streets to protest Putin? If it was me, I'd think twice about it, and certainly wonder about my own safety. Whereas, if our government invaded a country, with virtually the rest of the world condemning us and implementing sanctions, I wouldn't think twice about taking to the streets to protest. I'd have some faith that the British police or armed forces would not act in the same way Russian police and armed forces act on protesters.


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is such an easy thing to say on the comfort of your own keyboard, in a nation where we can effectively hound and disagree with politicians as much as we like (short of physically assaulting them).

Is it so easy in a society where, if you speak out against the government you can get arrested and tortured, or maybe even killed. Where Navalny, who tried to oppose Putin gets poisoned, luckily survives and as soon as he returns to Russia is put in a maximum security prison, and is allegedly tortured. Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.

In my opinion, we need as many Russian people being seen to oppose Putin and his regime. Sports stars are high profile. We often like to claim sports stars are role models when they've done something bad, simply so we can make them feel even more guilty. Well, if we genuinely believe they are role models, then why not use that position for good? As other means to speak to the Russian people. *The fact that these sports stars are not actually in Russia, it will hopefully make them feel they can speak out without their lives being in immediate danger?*

If you happened to find yourself living in Russia as an ex-pat, would you take to the streets to protest Putin? If it was me, I'd think twice about it, and certainly wonder about my own safety. Whereas, if our government invaded a country, with virtually the rest of the world condemning us and implementing sanctions, I wouldn't think twice about taking to the streets to protest. I'd have some faith that the British police or armed forces would not act in the same way Russian police and armed forces act on protesters.
		
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I'm sure that them not being in Russia won't make a blind bit of difference if Putin wants to silence them


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Dando said:



			I'm sure that them not being in Russia won't make a blind bit of difference if Putin wants to silence them
		
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It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)




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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.
		
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I was accused of being a keyboard warrior for suggesting this, strange.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Do they ban all Russian footballers, tennis players etc etc from playing?
On the football front, yes ban the teams but what about Russian players in other countries and teams?
If they're not "representing" Russia should they be banned?
Say, a Russian playing footy for Millwall or something...?
Not saying they shouldn't be..just thinking out loud..
		
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Not an easy question, but I think so. This war needs to be fought from several fronts, where taking away the daily joy of sports, music, arts etc etc, from the Russian people could be one way to wage an internal war against their dictator in charge. If everything "fun" that is now available since the fall of communism is again stripped away from them, I think, or rather hope perhaps, that internal opposition can grow and Putin finally face the same destiny as Ceaușescu. 

But as someone else said, I'm just a regular bloke ranting on a golf forum.


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2022)

The sobering fact is that Putin's strategy aims to cause wide population suffering. His military deliberately targets the soft options of hospitals, Schools etc. The intention is to pressurise his enemies leaders to submit and avoid further suffering. He is not even concerned with the lives of his own citizens and military personnel.

The normal negotiations based on compassion and humanity will fall on deaf ears. This leaves the West with the dilemma , as responding like with like would be abhorrent to our citizens.

I don't have answers to such an immoral perspective on human life because without a basic value of life there seems no values.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

What is quite scary, if the reports are true, is the power/ability of Anonomous. Russia seem to tout themselves as being at the forefront of cyber warfare and yet over the last week Anonomous claims to have shut down Russian state TV and the Russian Space program. May all be exagerated but if the control  information in Russia is seen as essential to dealing with the hearts and minds to the population and to spread dissent, they could prove to be a very useful ally.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.
		
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No. It will make them more likely to keep quiet.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.
		
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The BBC had some interviews with Russian's on both sides of this. It is, generally, split it two, you have the younger generation (Under 40yrs ish) who have access to social media and get a more rounded view of the world and as such are well aware of the atrocities being committed in their name. You then have the older generations who watch the Russian state tv to get their news and those that were interviewed were fully behind the conflict and it was all about protecting Russia from those from abroad.


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## Crazyface (Mar 2, 2022)

Just watching USA and UK politician bods all stood clapping. Made me laugh. Sort of like one of those satirical things where a country is getting blown to smithereens whilst politician think standing clapping will somehow help them.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

I see Motorsport UK will refuse to recognise licenses of competitors from Russia.

So, although Mazepin can race in F1 for Haas (although I believe talks are still ongoing behind the scenes), he will be unable to race in the British Grand Prix


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 2, 2022)

Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?
		
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Protracted guerrilla warfare for several months/years. Like an urban version of Vietnam. No winners, just losers followed by an eventual withdrawal. 

That's how I see it playing out unless there is an agreement via the peace talks to break up Ukraine and hand sovereignty of some areas back to Russia. Tragic all round.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I was accused of being a keyboard warrior for suggesting this, strange.
		
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Firstly, no one called you a keyboard warrior. I simply made a point that it is easy to call out Putin as a British citizen on a forum. There is zero risk. The risk is likely higher, much higher, if you are a Russian citizen in Russia.

I didn't say Russian citizens should not call him out either, I simply gave reasons why they don't. Otherwise, it is unfair to call out Russians for not having the courage to condemn Putin's actions, as if it really is that easy.

However, it may be easier for Russian citizens outside Russia to voice their objections. They may appeal to many other Russian people by doing so. Still riskier than being a Brit on their computer, but hopefully a whole lot safer that many of them will actually speak out against Putin. Their opinion could potentially reach thousands, or even millions of Russians and might be the spark that causes normal Russian citizens to have the courage to organise mass protests in Russia?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I get your view, but that will just further engender anti-West sentiment amongst the general population. A huge part of any modern conflict is the battle for hearts and minds and we have to be seen to be acting in a way that makes normal Russian citizens understand that they are part of something bigger than Russia. If not, it just makes it easier for those who wish to create a population that is firmly committed to hating the West/Democracy.

Don't forget also, it was the idea that an entire people should be punished that led to huge sanctions against Germany after WW1...which then provided the melting pot in which Hitler was able to rise to power and act in the way he did. We study History for a reason, it's just a shame that we rarely seem to learn from it!
		
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It’s strange how you can agree with a post but actually disagree with it.
A massive part of the problem was explained on BBC news this morning. Positive support for Putin has grown to 70%. But and this is a massive but. Because of what the government run media shows the Russian people. What they see and are shown is a million miles away from what is actually happening .
So as you rightly post sanctions imposed on Nazi germany were one of the reasons it was so easy for Hitler to get “ support “ from the German people. In the same way sanctions are now Imposed on Russia ( and Belarus). I personally think all Russian and Belarus sports people should be banned and maybe the people of those countries will ask serious questions as to why. The hearts and minds of The people those two countries need to be swayed and unfortunately the more “Cargo 200” happens the more normal Russians will oppose this war.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r..._(code_name)&usg=AOvVaw0R8JBngFIT8kZeQ4UyHIAg


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## Tashyboy (Mar 2, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Not an easy question, but I think so. This war needs to be fought from several fronts, where taking away the daily joy of sports, music, arts etc etc, from the Russian people could be one way to wage an internal war against their dictator in charge. If everything "fun" that is now available since the fall of communism is again stripped away from them, I think, or rather hope perhaps, that internal opposition can grow and Putin finally face the same destiny as Ceaușescu.

But as someone else said, I'm just a regular bloke ranting on a golf forum.
		
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What I find interesting is a Russian ballet school is/ was over here. The schedule has now been cancelled. But they don’t get to see state sponsored tv, they get BBC, ITV, Sky etc. I wonder what there views are when they see this with an “ open mind”. Not just the Ballet dancers but other Russians around the world.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?
		
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Apparently he wants to reinstate pro Russian fugitive Yanukovych as Ukrainian leader.

So, let us say he does that. Officially Russia end the war against Ukraine. Instead, as phillarrow suggests, they are left with extreme unrest between the new government and armed civilian "rebels" for years and years. I'd imagine Russia would have to provide security within Ukraine, and they'll be constantly under attack. Bordering countries will be extremely hostile, especially the millions who fled Ukraine and are now in countries like Poland. Western countries will maintain strong sanctions on Russia, and so the Russian economy likely to suffer. China might take advantage of Russia's weakness?

I'm just thinking out loud really, but I really cannot imagine a scenario where Russia come out feeling victorious. Putin will claim he was a strong champion of Russia, obviously, but his people will suffer the consequences while the rest of the world see him for what he is. Only way back for Russia, I think, is if there is a revolution or he is kicked out of power, and someone else comes along that genuinely wants a democratic Russia with good relations with their neighbours, and can sell it to the Russian people who have been brainwashed by state media. 

And, there is quite literally the nuclear option, which I don't even want to think about.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

Intersting that it appears that Yarmalenko has called out by name a number of current and past Russian internationals for their silence on the matter. Even if Russians could compete, it appears to be no guarnatee that will use that platform to make any form of sttement.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Apparently he wants to reinstate pro Russian fugitive Yanukovych as Ukrainian leader.

So, let us say he does that. Officially Russia end the war against Ukraine. Instead, as phillarrow suggests, they are left with extreme unrest between the new government and armed civilian "rebels" for years and years. I'd imagine Russia would have to provide security within Ukraine, and they'll be constantly under attack. Bordering countries will be extremely hostile, especially the millions who fled Ukraine and are now in countries like Poland. Western countries will maintain strong sanctions on Russia, and so the Russian economy likely to suffer. China might take advantage of Russia's weakness?

I'm just thinking out loud really, but I really cannot imagine a scenario where Russia come out feeling victorious. Putin will claim he was a strong champion of Russia, obviously, but his people will suffer the consequences while the rest of the world see him for what he is. Only way back for Russia, I think, is if there is a revolution or he is kicked out of power, and someone else comes along that genuinely wants a democratic Russia with good relations with their neighbours, and can sell it to the Russian people who have been brainwashed by state media.

And, there is quite literally the nuclear option, which I don't even want to think about.
		
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Totally agree, especially the democratically elected leader bit. But unfortunately there will still be a fair few old cranks who like the status quo in Russia exactly as it is.


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## chrisd (Mar 2, 2022)

Most Russians just keep their heads down, don't want to rock the boat so they don't get problems. Expressing an opinion is not, for them, the wisest move and so whether they believe the propaganda or not is fairly irrelevant. 

Imo all things open to Russians, sport, holidays abroad, culture etc etc should be denied to them as well as economic sanctions as hard as can be meted out


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

Watched a new report from the States and their take on it is that the only people who can really remove Putin from power would be the military. If he really is mad and if he really does want to press the big red button would the military people behind him decide that enough is enough and they're not going to watch their country get vaporised. I know Putin made the statement of their being no world without Russia or something but surely there are people on the side lines with decent lives, lots of friends and families who aren't going to stand around and watch the entire country reduced to rubble in a hail of nukes. 

From what I've seen China haven't come out against Russia but they've also not come out in support either and apparently one of the largest Chinese banks in Singapore has stopped trading with Russia which will have an equally damaging effect as the US/EU sanctions. Maybe the Chinese still have a key role to play in all this.


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## phillarrow (Mar 2, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			It’s strange how you can agree with a post but actually disagree with it.
A massive part of the problem was explained on BBC news this morning. Positive support for Putin has grown to 70%. But and this is a massive but. Because of what the government run media shows the Russian people. What they see and are shown is a million miles away from what is actually happening .
So as you rightly post sanctions imposed on Nazi germany were one of the reasons it was so easy for Hitler to get “ support “ from the German people. In the same way sanctions are now Imposed on Russia ( and Belarus). I personally think all Russian and Belarus sports people should be banned and maybe the people of those countries will ask serious questions as to why. *The hearts and minds of The people those two countries need to be swayed and unfortunately the more “Cargo 200” happens the more normal Russians will oppose this war.*
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiUwNOxxaf2AhXPNcAKHWA_CioQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_200_(code_name)&usg=AOvVaw0R8JBngFIT8kZeQ4UyHIAg

Click to expand...

This is why I fear it will be a long and bloody conflict. Eventually, most Russians will have lost a son/friend/neighbour to the war and the tide will turn against Putin. But this will take a very long time due to his control of state TV and he just won't care about it anyway because he has made himself omnipotent there. So, unless the results of these losses are that there is a full-scale revolution, we are still relying on the money men and women to react to Western sanctions and have him deposed. 

Who knows? Hopefully, I'm just being pessimistic and the tide of public opinion in Russia will turn faster (despite them being fed false information) AND they will rise up in greater numbers than I/we believe will happen?


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Watched a new report from the States and their take on it is that the only people who can really remove Putin from power would be the military. If he really is mad and if he really does want to press the big red button would the military people behind him decide that enough is enough and they're not going to watch their country get vaporised. I know Putin made the statement of their being no world without Russia or something but surely there are people on the side lines with decent lives, lots of friends and families who aren't going to stand around and watch the entire country reduced to rubble in a hail of nukes.

From what I've seen China haven't come out against Russia but they've also not come out in support either and apparently one of the largest Chinese banks in Singapore has stopped trading with Russia which will have an equally damaging effect as the US/EU sanctions. Maybe the Chinese still have a key role to play in all this.
		
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I noticed the position taken with China, they abstained at the UN Security Council rather than support Russia and vote against the resolution condemning their actions. They have also been quietly prodding with messages about peace being the only option. This could be massive as I suspet Putin assumed China would be a solid ally in this.


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 2, 2022)

I think what might cut into Putin's popularity is that many many Russians and Ukrainians share close individual family and friendship bonds over decades. This is not Russia invading and levelling Afghanistan or Syria. Interesting interview on the radio yesterday morning with a long-time UK based Ukrainian lady with family in both countries, saying for the first time her Russian relatives are realizing that state TV isn't giving them the full picture - just purely by talking to their Ukrainian relatives.

It might not be military losses or economic sanctions or geopolitics that eventually brings him down, but eventually ordinary family ties.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I noticed the position taken with China, they abstained at the UN Security Council rather than support Russia and vote against the resolution condemning their actions. They have also been quietly prodding with messages about peace being the only option. This could be massive as I suspet Putin assumed China would be a solid ally in this.
		
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I know that China aren't blameless in things (see Taiwan) however I would suspect that their main objective is economic domination and they can't do that if the world is a radioactive mess, hopefully their support (or lack thereof) will start to be a larger negative and either Putin comes to his senses or someone does it for him.


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next?
		
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He'll have a crack at a Nato country. Just to finish it off


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I know that China aren't blameless in things (see Taiwan) however I would suspect that their main objective is economic domination and they can't do that if the world is a radioactive mess, hopefully their support (or lack thereof) will start to be a larger negative and either Putin comes to his senses or someone does it for him.
		
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Yeah. Presumably for China to build their economy rapidly, they'd ideally like strong relations with the richer western countries, rather than teaming up with an economically crippled Russia.

I still suspect that, in these early stages they were quite happy for Russia to score a huge own goal and significantly weaken them, making China a much stronger force in Asia. However, now that significant damage has clearly been done, I can imagine China withdrawing their support of Russia, even if that is in the form of putting a hand round their shoulder and asking them to calm down as a mate. By doing this, they get to earn some brownie points with the west. By doing nothing, the west are likely to become more weary of China, which will be the least of China's worries if full scale war begins.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			And Moshiri is chairman of USM. The ties go much deeper and wider, we are covered in dirt.
		
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"The Club can confirm that it has suspended with immediate effect all commercial sponsorship arrangements with the Russian companies USM, Megafon and Yota."

Weasel words though I feel - suspended can mean many things.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

OK now reports that Russia have locked up primary school children for anti was protesting.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

GB72 said:



			OK now reports that Russia have locked up primary school children for anti was protesting.
		
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Yeah, and likely true as verified by a Nobel prize-winning paper Novoya Gazeta. It makes you wonder, do the Russian police have a heart? Surely they do not actually have the same mindset as Putin, or at least a lot of them. So, I wonder if many of them are thinking "why the hell am I locking up children, what has my life become!?"


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Can the Premier League end broadcasting in Russia? I'd imagine if major sports franchises were able to end broadcasting in Russia entirely, that would hurt. Imagine big Russian football fans not getting to watch the Premier League, Serie A or La Liga. Or motorsport fans not being able to watch F1 or MotoGP.


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## greenone (Mar 2, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			He'll have a crack at a Nato country. Just to finish it off
		
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Taking a city is one thing, keeping control is a completely different thing. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

greenone said:



			Taking a city is one thing, keeping control is a completely different thing. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq.
		
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He is having enough trouble taking a City at the moment 

And he certainly won’t move onto a NATO country


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is having enough trouble taking a City at the moment

And he certainly won’t move onto a NATO country
		
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I would not put your shirt on it - there's not much logic going on at the moment and plenty of his cronies are pushing him for a harder line.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

drdel said:



			I would not put your shirt on it - there's not much logic going on at the moment and plenty of his cronies are pushing him for a harder line.
		
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Putin won’t go near a NATO country - it’s a loss straight away , it would serve him no purpose . We had decades of the Cold War and further on and russia still didn’t step up to go into a NATO country - that just gives NATO the ammunition and the just cause.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

Nto sure if it is a worry or a relief, could work either way, but the view seems to be at the moment that the Russian ground forces and non nuclear forces in general do not appear to be the massive threat to Western Europe that they were assumed to be. Did I read that somthing like 60% of Russia's ground troops were on the borders for this invasion. OK the nuclear side remains very scary for someone like me who lived through cold war one and the concern is that this is where they will go if this ever escalates but the ground capabilities do not seem as frightening as I always thought.


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## stefanovic (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Putin won’t go near a NATO country - it’s a loss straight away , it would serve him no purpose . We had decades of the Cold War and further on and russia still didn’t step up to go into a NATO country - that just gives NATO the ammunition and the just cause.
		
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They invaded Czechoslovakia and Hungary.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

OK, I will admit that circumstances mean that it may have been a safe and prudent move with air superiority but a 40 mile, slow moving convoy on open roads with the bulk of your ground forces. Again, no expert, but that seems like a turkey shoot for a nato air force.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nto sure if it is a worry or a relief, could work either way, but the view seems to be at the moment that the Russian ground forces and non nuclear forces in general do not appear to be the massive threat to Western Europe that they were assumed to be. Did I read that somthing like 60% of Russia's ground troops were on the borders for this invasion. OK the nuclear side remains very scary for someone like me who lived through cold war one and the concern is that this is where they will go if this ever escalates but the ground capabilities do not seem as frightening as I always thought.
		
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Don't worry. Liverpoolphil has confirmed that Russia will not use nuclear weapons, so we are safe on that front.

I'm not sure about ground forces, but the US Air Force is, head and shoulders larger than any other air force in the world. Russia is second, but of course there are the other NATO countries to add to the mix.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			They invaded Czechoslovakia and Hungary.
		
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One in 1948 and one in 1956 when neither country was a part of NATO - both joined after the Cold War



GB72 said:



			OK, I will admit that circumstances mean that it may have been a safe and prudent move with air superiority but a 40 mile, slow moving convoy on open roads with the bulk of your ground forces. Again, no expert, but that seems like a turkey shoot for a nato air force.
		
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The Russian Navy and Air Force are still pretty strong but not at the level of NATO forces, the issue with the ground forces are they are mainly conscripts which at the end of the day won’t ever be the most professional. They won’t want to be facing NATO ground forces.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Don't worry. Liverpoolphil has confirmed that Russia will not use nuclear weapons, so we are safe on that front.

I'm not sure about ground forces, but the US Air Force is, head and shoulders larger than any other air force in the world. Russia is second, but of course there are the other NATO countries to add to the mix.
		
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I was always brought up with the undestanding and fear that a wave of Russian ground forces and tanks could sweep across Western Europe. From what I have seen so far, they would have troiuble getting as far as western europe let alone sweeping across it.


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## stefanovic (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One in 1948 and one in 1956 when neither country was a part of NATO - both joined after the Cold War
		
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I acknowledge that but it does illustrate how far Russia will go.
BTW As for Britain it might be easier to find what countries we didn't invade.

Britain Has Invaded All but 22 Countries (kottke.org)


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I was always brought up with the undestanding and fear that a wave of Russian ground forces and tanks could sweep across Western Europe. From what I have seen so far, they would have troiuble getting as far as western europe let alone sweeping across it.
		
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Well, (thanks Google), Russia has 900,000 active military personel (5 times more than Ukraine). 200,000 were stationed around Ukraine. Its airforce has 1,300 aircraft and 500 helicopters. The US military alone has 1.4 million active personnel, 500,000 more than Russia. It has over 13,000 aircraft.

I guess it would be a tough war for us if it was just western Europe v Russia. But, because NATO includes the USA, it does help that the US are the biggest spenders in their military. It spends more than double of the rest of NATO combined.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I acknowledge that but it does illustrate how far Russia will go.
BTW As for Britain it might be easier to find what countries we didn't invade.

Britain Has Invaded All but 22 Countries (kottke.org)

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Sao Tome and Principe


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I acknowledge that but it does illustrate how far Russia will go.
BTW As for Britain it might be easier to find what countries we didn't invade.

Britain Has Invaded All but 22 Countries (kottke.org)

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How far back do you want to go in life 🤷‍♂️ - what is the relevance of what GB have done in the past centuries ? 

And Russia invading countries 70 years ago doesn’t illustrate how far they will go this time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			He'll have a crack at a Nato country. Just to finish it off
		
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He already has troops in Moldova, he then comes up against NATO countries, Bulgaria and Romania stopping him getting to Serbia where he tried it on during the Croatia/Serbian conflict.
That is when things get interesting.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, and likely true as verified by a Nobel prize-winning paper Novoya Gazeta. It makes you wonder, do the Russian police have a heart? Surely they do not actually have the same mindset as Putin, or at least a lot of them. So, I wonder if many of them are thinking "why the hell am I locking up children, what has my life become!?"
		
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Also, strangely, reported in the Siberian Times.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Also, strangely, reported in the Siberian Times.
		
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Do you have a subscription? Deliveries might start becoming inconsistent.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nto sure if it is a worry or a relief, could work either way, but the view seems to be at the moment that the Russian ground forces and non nuclear forces in general do not appear to be the massive threat to Western Europe that they were assumed to be. Did I read that somthing like 60% of Russia's ground troops were on the borders for this invasion. OK the nuclear side remains very scary for someone like me who lived through cold war one and the concern is that this is where they will go if this ever escalates but the ground capabilities do not seem as frightening as I always thought.
		
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Russian forces under the old USSR where never considered a major threat in a conventional war. While I was in,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_British_Army_at_the_end_of_the_Cold_War  shows how the strategic reviews carried out by successive governments have crippled the military.  
We were fairly confident with the NATO forces we had even if others might not have been.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

drdel said:



			I would not put your shirt on it - there's not much logic going on at the moment and plenty of his cronies are pushing him for a harder line.
		
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And you know this how?
Seems to me your taking a propoganda approach with few, if any, substantive facts!


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you have a subscription? Deliveries might start becoming inconsistent.
		
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Have two nephews in interesting jobs.


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Some interesting abstentions with the normal against from todays vote in the UN


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How far back do you want to go in life 🤷‍♂️ - what is the relevance of what GB have done in the past centuries ?
...
		
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Romans in 55BC; Norse in later centuries; French in 1066!
All irrelevant to UK's (now) natural affinity to use exploration and trade to increase wealth!


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Unconfirmed reports from captured Tank crews is that they were on an extension to the previous main exercise in Belarus. They were told to drive down “that road” for 80kms and then come back.
Many Russian combat vehicles do not have communication and nor did this lot have maps.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Some interesting abstentions with the normal against from todays vote in the UN
View attachment 41543

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Interesting indeed, India and South Africa especially!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Interesting indeed, India and South Africa especially!
		
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I don't know anything about Eritrea, apart from where they are. However, I am now adding them to my naughty list.


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## cliveb (Mar 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Interesting indeed, *India* and South Africa especially!
		
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Plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
There must be something about the subcontinent countries that means they don't want to upset Putin. Just a guess, but maybe they get pretty much all of their oil and gas from Russia?


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
There must be something about the subcontinent countries that means they don't want to upset Putin. Just a guess, but maybe they get pretty much all of their oil and gas from Russia?
		
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Pakistan have just signed a massive gas deal with Russia. African countries normally adopt a “where keeping out of this” on security issues at the UN.
Time to start wondering, outside of the aid agency, what a very expensive organisation the UN is and what is it’s purpose.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 2, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
There must be something about the subcontinent countries that means they don't want to upset Putin. Just a guess, but maybe they get pretty much all of their oil and gas from Russia?
		
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Think that slime ball Imran Khan just did a deal with Russia to buy grain and oil so I’m not surprised by them. The bengalis will just follow Pakistan, don’t know about Sri Lanka, will have to do a bit of digging.


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Russia invading countries 70 years ago doesn’t illustrate how far they will go this time.
		
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It does if their mentality is 70 years out of date too.
Putin would appear to have us by the bollocks.
If he didn't have the nukes we'd be in there now, kicking butt.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Think that slime ball Imran Khan just did a deal with Russia to buy grain and oil so I’m not surprised by them. The bengalis will just follow Pakistan, don’t know about Sri Lanka, will have to do a bit of digging.
		
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India seemed to get the vast majority of their oil from the Middle East. Russia were only 14th on their list of import countries.


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## greenone (Mar 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Interesting indeed, India and South Africa especially!
		
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India isn't that surprising they've bought the majority of their arms from Russia for years.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

greenone said:



			India isn't that surprising they've bought the majority of their arms from Russia for years.
		
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Pakistan probably has too!


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## chrisd (Mar 2, 2022)

greenone said:



			India isn't that surprising they've bought the majority of their arms from Russia for years.
		
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My understanding from my Indian pp is that India abstained because of previous votes, some time back, where Ukraine voted against them in some important votes.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

chrisd said:



			My understanding from my Indian pp is that India abstained because of previous votes, some time back, where Ukraine voted against them in some important votes.
		
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It's a bit like the Eurovision voting


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2022)

It's got really serious now, all the Russian teams are being removed from FIFA 22


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

Interesting if true.  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17806693/russia-mutiny-army-ukraine-vladimir-putin/


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting if true.  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17806693/russia-mutiny-army-ukraine-vladimir-putin/

Click to expand...

Given the source I'm not holding my breath over the accuracy of the facts. If there is a kernel of truth then yes, very interesting


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Given the source I'm not holding my breath over the accuracy of the facts. If there is a kernel of truth then yes, very interesting
		
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Hence the opening line.


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting if true.  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17806693/russia-mutiny-army-ukraine-vladimir-putin/

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Let’s hope it is true and others follow their lead


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Hence the opening line.
		
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Wasn't a pick at you or your post. Just that that paper do have a history of not being 100% accurate with the truth.


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wasn't a pick at you or your post. Just that that paper do have a history of not being 100% accurate with the truth.
		
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To fair homer, which paper is 100% accurate with the truth


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Dando said:



			To fair homer, which paper is 100% accurate with the truth
		
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I think Homer made a typo and accidentally put an extra 0 on that number. I think.he meant 10%


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## Tashyboy (Mar 2, 2022)

Dando said:



			To fair homer, which paper is 100% accurate with the truth
		
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apart from used toilet paper am also struggling with an answer


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think Homer made a typo and accidentally put an extra 0 on that number. I think.he meant 10%
		
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Given the Sun's reputation maybe 1% was more accurate. Of course you could argue all papers aren't wholly accurate with the truth and will certainly spin the facts to suit their own agenda. However this paper has a legacy of inaccurate reporting and sensationalising the story


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Given the Sun's reputation maybe 1% was more accurate. Of course you could argue all papers aren't wholly accurate with the truth and will certainly spin the facts to suit their own agenda. However this paper has a legacy of inaccurate reporting and sensationalising the story
		
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Well, when it says "The Sun" on the front page, I believe that to be true. It is in fact the correct name. The football scores are usually correct as well, and the page numbers. 

Everything else is likely to be fictional or way out of context.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2022)

Have to give credit to these TV reporters in Ukraine. Certainly earning their money.

Also those Ukrainian Firefighters out on the streets.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2022)

Looking at that long convoy of Russian vehicles heading for Kyiv it seems that a squadron of ground attack aircraft could seriously damage and disrupt them. They probably have ground to air missiles but it does seem they are in quite forested roads that make them more difficult to use.


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2022)

The Prez of the US was singularly impressive in his speech. Also said Iraq when he meant Ukraine.  I'm not sure he's all there!

Bbc had Abbott on, even though Starmer said "belt up" and she referred to Russian invasion of Croatia! (I kid you not)


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			The Prez of the US was singularly impressive in his speech. Also said Iraq when he meant Ukraine.  I'm not sure he's all there!

Bbc had Abbott on, even though Starmer said "belt up" and she referred to Russian invasion of Croatia! (I kid you not)
		
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Stairlift Joe


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Quite a long one, but found this video a fascinating watch. Frederick Kagan certainly has a lot of knowledge in this area:


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## bobmac (Mar 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Stairlift Joe
		
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Apart from being not true, that's not even remotely funny


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## spongebob59 (Mar 3, 2022)

Britain to spend over £2bn on imported Russian liquefied natural gas (LNG) this year, despite sanctions. UK imports of Russian gas doubled in 4 years. Ban on Russian-owned ships docking in British ports, doesn’t cover Russian LNG brought to UK by ships from third countries.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			The Prez of the US was singularly impressive in his speech. Also said Iraq when he meant Ukraine.  I'm not sure he's all there!

Bbc had Abbott on, even though Starmer said "belt up" and she referred to Russian invasion of Croatia! (I kid you not)
		
Click to expand...


Add Nancy Pelosi confusing Hungary with Ukraine and you have to question how out of touch our rulers are!


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Apart from being not true, that's not even remotely funny
		
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Unlike the entire concept and content of Spitting Image


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## AmandaJR (Mar 3, 2022)

Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.


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## phillarrow (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.
		
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Brave and honourable young man. My thoughts are with you and your sister, I hope he comes back safe and sound, and soon.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 3, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Brave and honourable young man. My thoughts are with you and your sister, I hope he comes back safe and sound, and soon.
		
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Thank you. What really scares me is he doesn't expect to come back.


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## chrisd (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.
		
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Brave lad!

I really hope he returns safe and sound


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.
		
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Who is he going with? Are there large groups of people organising these trips, or is it a bit more a case of individuals travelling over and seeing what happens when they get there?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.
		
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Hopefully you can persuade him but sounds like he feels this is something he needs to do. If he goes just hope he can return safely and soon


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## GB72 (Mar 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who is he going with? Are there large groups of people organising these trips, or is it a bit more a case of individuals travelling over and seeing what happens when they get there?
		
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From a report that I saw, you can volunteer through the Ukrainian embassy so there are oganised options.


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## Dando (Mar 3, 2022)

Just listening the Russian foreign minister - he’s off his head


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2022)

Dando said:



			Just listening the Russian foreign minister - he’s off his head
		
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As bad as ours?


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## Bdill93 (Mar 3, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			As bad as ours?
		
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From BBC: 

He says that US President Joe Biden has said the only alternative to sanctions is a third world war - and Lavrov goes on to say that a third world war could only be "nuclear war".

He says that is only in the heads of Western politicians - and is not in the heads of the Russian people.

"If real war is waged against us then those who make such plans should think about it [and] in my opinion such plans are being made," he says.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

In terms of the video I posted with Frederick Kagan, some of the interesting things he talked about:


As part of Russian doctrine, they use a form of gaslighting in warfare. They basically send out a false narrative to their enemies, such that they struggle to know how to react towards Russian aggression when it happens.
However, on this occasion, one of the good things the West (Biden) did was take him on by calling Putin out ahead of time. They told the world what Russia would do and say, and this likely infuriated Putin. This could be an explanation as to why he invaded Ukraine now. It is a complex question, but could be well down to the fact that Putin was that aggravated that he gave the green light for the invasion.
Kagan actually predicted Russia would NOT invade Ukraine, and holds his hands up that he was wrong. However, his reasoning that they would not invade was intriguing. Basically, from a military point of view, Russia were not set up to conduct a highly successful invasion, rather they looked to be set up to simply intimidate. He goes into depth to the reasons why, but it may explain why the invasion has been sluggish up to now.
He has never seen protests inside Russia quite like this. What was chilling was when he said that most of the protesters that have been arrested will likely never be seen again, and will likely be killed. It was chilling how he said it in such a matter of fact way without any additional comments to back this up, from a guy who clearly knows a lot about Russia now, and about its history. I was left asking, is this really the case? If so, I could never question a Russian for not standing up against Putin, when you could easily pay with your life (after being tortured)
One of the reasons it will hit the Russians so hard (aside from an economical point) is that they do not see Ukraine as the enemy, not even Putin and his media have brainwashed them to think Ukraine is the enemy. The west, yes, they are the enemy, but not Ukraine. So, many many Russians will not be prepared for the fact that they are at war with Ukraine, who they would see as friendly neighbours.
He said Russia would not use nuclear weapons, because the west will never threaten Russia's sovereignty. It is not like the west plan to invade Russia and steal their land, but if they are driven to war with Russia, it would involve the west defending the NATO borders. 
Mind you, I see the Russian foreign minister has just openly said WW3 would be a nuclear war. So, weather we are prepared to just laugh that off as intimidation tactics or not is another matter.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Apart from being not true, that's not even remotely funny
		
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Decided to reply on the Laughter thread.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Also, I noticed Tyson Fury said that if the UK are dragged into a war, he will be first to sign on the dotted line, along with his father, to go and fight. He has 2 rules, Love your woman and defend your country by fighting for it.


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## GB72 (Mar 3, 2022)

I know it is so easy to be cynical about media manipulation but the video of Ukrainians calling the mum of a Russian soldier so as he could let her know that he was alive and OK but had been captured was hearwarming and gives me some faith in humanity. 

From the more hard nosed point, from what i have read, the mothers of deceased russian soldiers in any conflict can be a fierce political power if they turn on the government.


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## IanM (Mar 3, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I know it is so easy to be cynical about media manipulation but the video of Ukrainians calling the mum of a Russian soldier so as he could let her know that he was alive and OK but had been captured was heart warming and gives me some faith in humanity.

From the more hard nosed point, from what i have read, the mothers of deceased Russian soldiers in any conflict can be a fierce political power if they turn on the government.
		
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Both are correct. 

Other than the reinstatement of the Soviet Bloc, I can see not Russian Motive for this. 

Russians per se (from those I've worked with) have no love for war.  They suffered greatly in WW2 and the stories are passed down.  Mind you, there's a separation of "people" and "politicians" in most places.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who is he going with? Are there large groups of people organising these trips, or is it a bit more a case of individuals travelling over and seeing what happens when they get there?
		
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GB72 said:



			From a report that I saw, you can volunteer through the Ukrainian embassy so there are oganised options.
		
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Yes this. It is organised and he will join one of 150 TA defence battalions or the International Brigade that has been set up. So he's going alone in terms of booking flight and getting to Poland but then is met and crosses the border. He's got a list of kit they want him to try and get and his ex amy pals have worked hard to get him all they can. Otherwise he admits he's not sure what he'll be doing, what arms will be provided etc but is prepared to do anything that's needed. He describes himself as "wired to be a soldier" and is also "fit, healthy and without commitments".


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## SaintHacker (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Yes this. It is organised and he will join one of 150 TA defence battalions or the International Brigade that has been set up. So he's going alone in terms of booking flight and getting to Poland but then is met and crosses the border. He's got a list of kit they want him to try and get and his ex amy pals have worked hard to get him all they can. Otherwise he admits he's not sure what he'll be doing, what arms will be provided etc but is prepared to do anything that's needed. He describes himself as "wired to be a soldier" and is also "fit, healthy and without commitments".
		
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As the father of a serving soldier I can quite imagine what you are going through. I hope and pray his superior training and expertise keeps him safe and he is home as soon as possible.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 3, 2022)

Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today. 
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?


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## greenone (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
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Because we are watching British coverage probably.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
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Are we taking the lead, or does it just appear that way because, naturally, our media will focus on what the British are doing primarily?

Besides, the UK is one of the biggest (if I can put it that way) NATO countries, with the USA by far the biggest, so it is probably not that surprising to see UK delegates taking a lead with a handful of other countries.


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
Click to expand...

I would say the head of the EU and the head of NATO have been on TV all this time - even more than UK ministers/PM. The German Chancellor announced a major major change in the defense budget and arms export philosophy, specifically blaming Russian actions. The French foreign minister has been publicly scathing in his description of Putin. And almost all of Europe except Ireland have now ditched their no arms export to Ukraine stance and are now supplying weapons including anti-tank and anti-air missiles. According to UN and BBC, 1mm refugees have fled Ukraine with Poland having taken in over 500k - in just over a week.


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
Click to expand...

As others have posted....Our News coverage concentrates on what OUR leaders are doing. No doubt, the same applies to other countries and their leaders.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 3, 2022)

Thanks for your 4 replies. Appreciated and valid comments.


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## GB72 (Mar 3, 2022)

I guess as well (this is not a comment on whether it is good or bad before anyone starts) that a number of other nations work their response through the EU to show a united front whereas we are acting on our own. Seen plenty from the EU and NATO. 

Going to be interesting for the EU with a couple of requests to join. That would very much move it from a social and commerical pact to a defensive one was well and we would be back on the topic of a standing EU army.


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			Both are correct.

Other than the reinstatement of the Soviet Bloc, I can see not Russian Motive for this.

Russians per se (from those I've worked with) have no love for war.  They suffered greatly in WW2 and the stories are passed down.  Mind you, there's a separation of "people" and "politicians" in most places.
		
Click to expand...

Likewise from the several that I have worked with. Not exactly 'typical examples' as they stated they won't be going back, but they did suggest that there's a huge gulf between the approach to life of their politicians (local as well as national) and the general population. There is huge potential for corruption at every level.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I guess as well (this is not a comment on whether it is good or bad before anyone starts) that a number of other nations work their response through the EU to show a united front whereas we are acting on our own. Seen plenty from the EU and NATO.

Going to be interesting for the EU with a couple of requests to join. That would very much move it from a social and commerical pact to a defensive one was well and we would be back on the topic of a standing EU army.
		
Click to expand...

I can't see how those applying come anywhere close to passing the financial tests to join. There may be an emotional push for this but the cold hard facts will not let them through the door.


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## GB72 (Mar 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can't see how those applying come anywhere close to passing the financial tests to join. There may be an emotional push for this but the cold hard facts will not let them through the door.
		
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Agreed but, in the meantime, the EU are going to come under a lot of emotional pressure and it is not easy to come out of it looking good. Not their fault but sadly inevitable.


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## IanM (Mar 3, 2022)

If you can afford to help, this is a place to do it.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
Click to expand...


If one was cynical/realistic (delete as applicable), one might suggest that it's because it draws attention away from other matters that we can't discuss on here.


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## Smiffy (Mar 3, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If one was cynical/realistic (delete as applicable), one might suggest that it's because it draws attention away from other matters that we can't discuss on here. 

Click to expand...

What, like the shanks???
😱😱😱😱😱


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Off to see my nephew shortly. He's ex army and flies to Poland on Monday and will be taken across the border to fight with the Ukranians. I'm going to try and persuade him otherwise but he is determined and it's all in place for him to go. I admire him but don't want him to go. My poor sister is in bits and flying in from Spain tomorrow to see him.
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few going, unfortunately it could be an own goal propaganda  whys if they are caught and wear their old gear.

”NATO forces fighting in Ukraine “ will be the headline.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I know it is so easy to be cynical about media manipulation but the video of Ukrainians calling the mum of a Russian soldier so as he could let her know that he was alive and OK but had been captured was hearwarming and gives me some faith in humanity.

From the more hard nosed point, from what i have read, the mothers of deceased russian soldiers in any conflict can be a fierce political power if they turn on the government.
		
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Good tactical move by the Ukraine, good way of the true story to get out to the back woods of Russia.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Another question for you knowledgeable guys:-

The UK seems heavily involved, with Boris in a couple of countries earlier in the week, Lyn Truss in Estonia or somewhere near there with another Minister today.
What are other European Countries doing; I see Macron at times, but very little else?

Why do we always have/ appear to want to take the lead?
		
Click to expand...

All the border countries who are members of NATO are involved heavily reinforced with Brigade size units from UK (my Regiment has been in Estonia since November) and larger forces from the USA. French and German still absent.
The head of the Bundeswher openly slated his politicians for running down the German capabilities over the last 15 years.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 3, 2022)

🚨|BREAKING: Russian businessman Alex Konanykhin has offered a $1,000,000 bounty for the arrest of Vladimir Putin in a post he published on LinkedIn


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## Tashyboy (Mar 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Yes this. It is organised and he will join one of 150 TA defence battalions or the International Brigade that has been set up. So he's going alone in terms of booking flight and getting to Poland but then is met and crosses the border. He's got a list of kit they want him to try and get and his ex amy pals have worked hard to get him all they can. Otherwise he admits he's not sure what he'll be doing, what arms will be provided etc but is prepared to do anything that's needed. *He describes himself as "wired to be a soldier" and is also "fit, healthy and without commitments".*

Click to expand...

Never served but involved with the RBL. It’s strange talking to some lads re when they come out of the forces. Some of them just cannot adjust, cannot switch off. It’s all they really know. Suffice to say some rejoin or are active involved in the TA. Thoughts and best of luck and love with him.
NoT sure who mentioned it re him taking kit and it/ him being construed as British or NATO. Yesterdays news showed a bloke at a military hardware store offloading loads of military gear and clothing. He was taking all union jack flags off and categorically saying  “ that’s it’s to ensure there is no misunderstanding that the British are not in Ukraine” Should anyone be captured wearing the stuff.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Never served but involved with the RBL. It’s strange talking to some lads re when they come out of the forces. Some of them just cannot adjust, cannot switch off. It’s all they really know. Suffice to say some rejoin or are active involved in the TA. Thoughts and best of luck and love with him.
NoT sure who mentioned it re him taking kit and it/ him being construed as British or NATO. Yesterdays news showed a bloke at a military hardware store offloading loads of military gear and clothing. He was taking all union jack flags off and categorically saying  “ that’s it’s to ensure there is no misunderstanding that the British are not in Ukraine” Should anyone be captured wearing the stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully you don’t refer to anyone in the Army Reserve as TA  although the acronym STAB & SAS can still be used


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## Tashyboy (Mar 3, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Thanks for your 4 replies. Appreciated and valid comments.
		
Click to expand...

One thing that this war has done is to “ force” the germans to now pay 2% of its GDP into the military. Before it was 1% and stuck in the throat of Trump when he was President. There’s a clip of him somewhere and he is not happy with Germany. He tells them we are protecting Europe through NATO and yet you are giving Billions to Russia in gas money.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 3, 2022)

That Russian 40km army convoy has stalled apparently because it has run out of fuel. And Russia is the world’s largest producer of hydrocarbons. Yes, as Putin says, it is all going to plan


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

Clumsy 
RUSSIAN GENERAL KILLED
Maj. Gen. Andrei Sukhovetsky, the commanding general of the Russian 7th Airborne Division, was killed in fighting in Ukraine earlier this week.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			That Russian 40km army convoy has stalled apparently because it has run out of fuel. And Russia is the world’s largest producer of hydrocarbons. Yes, as Putin says, it is all going to plan
		
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What’s the betting the fuel tankers where at the back of the queue


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499445264167362569


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## rosecott (Mar 3, 2022)

IanM said:



If you can afford to help, this is a place to do it.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, I needed a nudge.


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## greenone (Mar 3, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-60608132

For the people wondering why people wouldn't denounce Putin publicly. No proof as of yet but he has form.


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2022)

Apparently Putin's daughter lives just up the road from us in St George's Hill. Security has been ramped up, hopefully someone sticks one of those cluster bombs through her letter box and see's how she fairs.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently Putin's daughter lives just up the road from us in St George's Hill. Security has been ramped up, hopefully someone sticks one of those cluster bombs through her letter box and see's how she fairs.
		
Click to expand...

That’s kept quiet


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## Smiffy (Mar 3, 2022)

I read somewhere today that Putin is talking about public executions.
If that starts, bomb the bastids...


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I read somewhere today that Putin is talking about public executions.
If that starts, bomb the bastids...
		
Click to expand...

That will help his publicity, executing his own people, or Ukranians that he calls brainwashed Russians


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 3, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I read somewhere today that Putin is talking about public executions.
If that starts, bomb the bastids...
		
Click to expand...

Another charge to the war crimes rap sheet. I really hope the powers that deal with war crimes go to town on Putin and his inner sanctum once all this gets resolved in terms of no more military action. Surely even Putin can't be daft/mad enough to damage his reputation with his own civilians


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surely even Putin can't be daft/mad enough to damage his reputation with his own civilians
		
Click to expand...

He’s jailed a class of Russian primary school children, I don’t think he gives a flying.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently Putin's daughter lives just up the road from us in St George's Hill. Security has been ramped up, hopefully someone sticks one of those cluster bombs through her letter box and see's how she fairs.
		
Click to expand...

It's nearly all Russian owned properties


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That will help his publicity, executing his own people, or Ukranians that he calls brainwashed Russians
		
Click to expand...

State controlled media so the average Russian will not know. People have been going missing for decades.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 3, 2022)

Old Skier said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499445264167362569

Click to expand...

Do you think this is this the work of Javelin? 

Was reading that they are the anti-tank weapon of choice in Ukraine.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			He’s jailed a class of Russian primary school children, I don’t think he gives a flying.
		
Click to expand...

OMG. Never knew that. Why? What's the point harming kids


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

drdel said:



			State controlled media so the average Russian will not know. People have been going missing for decades.
		
Click to expand...

Not going to happen


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you think this is this the work of Javelin?

Was reading that they are the anti-tank weapon of choice in Ukraine.
		
Click to expand...

Could be javelin, request went out on our group for javelin and stinger instructors, but those are not that well armoured and could be RPG.


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			OMG. Never knew that. Why? What's the point harming kids
		
Click to expand...

I caught the end of it on the news, I think their mum’s took them to lay flowers at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow. They were all (children included) rounded up and taken to jail. Video of children crying in the cells not really understanding what is going on.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			OMG. Never knew that. Why? What's the point harming kids
		
Click to expand...

It was all over the main news today


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I caught the end of it on the news, I think their mum’s took them to lay flowers at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow. They were all (children included) rounded up and taken to jail. Video of children crying in the cells not really understanding what is going on.
		
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Naughty kids were demonstrating, must learn the consequences of your actions.
Russia at the ground level is full of people without individual thought because that can get you in trouble. Do what the boss says, literally.
Another reason why the troops in the North have been acting like headless chickens, loosing equipment left right and centre, getting lost and generally being leaderless. Everyone is too frightened of making a mistake.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I caught the end of it on the news, I think their mum’s took them to lay flowers at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow. They were all (children included) rounded up and taken to jail. Video of children crying in the cells not really understanding what is going on.
		
Click to expand...

That's disgusting on every single level


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Could be javelin, request went out on our group for javelin and stinger instructors, but those are not that well armoured and could be RPG.
		
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Could it be a bunch of Molotovs thrown at them. I notice someone lobbed something at the end.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 3, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Good tactical move by the Ukraine, good way of the true story to get out to the back woods of Russia.
		
Click to expand...

Or hire a good hitman or snipper


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## Pants (Mar 3, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Or hire a good hitman or* snipper*

Click to expand...

Without anasthetic??  That'll learn him


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			That Russian 40km army convoy has stalled apparently because it has run out of fuel. And Russia is the world’s largest producer of hydrocarbons. Yes, as Putin says, it is all going to plan
		
Click to expand...

Nobbling Rommel's fuel supplies was a key factor in the WW2 Desert War win.
But certainly ironic - if true.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 3, 2022)

Pants said:



			Without anasthetic??  That'll learn him 

Click to expand...

Oops, but both are still a great ideal pmsl


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2022)

Just woken up to the news that Russia have targeted and shelled Europe’s largest nuclear power plant situated in the Ukraine. Luckily the fire was just a building and it’s been extinguished however it’s acts like this that mean we’re now moving very close to the rest of the world having to get directly involved. Pretty worrying. 

Get the feeling that, if Putin isn’t taken out that WW3 is almost a certainty whether it be for this conflict or one further down the road.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Just woken up to the news that Russia have targeted and shelled Europe’s largest nuclear power plant situated in the Ukraine. Luckily the fire was just a building and it’s been extinguished however it’s acts like this that mean we’re now moving very close to the rest of the world having to get directly involved. Pretty worrying. 

Get the feeling that, if Putin isn’t taken out that WW3 is almost a certainty whether it be for this conflict or one further down the road.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like another smart move by the Russians. Risk a huge nuclear meltdown in a country on your border. Although, it might result in a fairly rapid retreat out of Ukraine


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 4, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Just woken up to the news that Russia have targeted and shelled Europe’s largest nuclear power plant situated in the Ukraine. Luckily the fire was just a building and it’s been extinguished however it’s acts like this that mean we’re now moving very close to the rest of the world having to get directly involved. Pretty worrying.

Get the feeling that, if Putin isn’t taken out that WW3 is almost a certainty whether it be for this conflict or one further down the road.
		
Click to expand...

Got to say I'm feeling your pessimism. Clearly a man without a grip on reality

Some of us go down in a blaze of obscurity
Some of us go down in a haze of publicity
The price of infamy, the edge of insanity


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Got to say I'm feeling your pessimism. Clearly a man without a grip on reality

Some of us go down in a blaze of obscurity
Some of us go down in a haze of publicity
The price of infamy, the edge of insanity
		
Click to expand...

Ditto! 

Consciously sending missiles into a nuclear power plant seems so unimaginable that it feels like it's just a matter of time now before the west reluctantly accept that we've got no choice but to wipe him out. Very scary times these.


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## Dando (Mar 4, 2022)

I’m sure I just heard that Putin is drafting up those arrested for protesting against the war


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sounds like another smart move by the Russians. Risk a huge nuclear meltdown in a country on your border. Although, it might result in a fairly rapid retreat out of Ukraine
		
Click to expand...

That's what happens when you send untrained troops without maps.
Doubt they knew what was there.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			That's what happens when you send untrained troops without without maps.
Doubt they new what was there.
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought the Russian's couldn't be that inept, although nothing would surprise me after what has gone on recently.

Suggestions that it was an intentional attack on a nearby building, to force them to shut the plant down and harming the Ukraine's electricity supplies. If that was the case, it looks like it has worked.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I would have thought the Russian's couldn't be that inept, although nothing would surprise me after what has gone on recently.

Suggestions that it was an intentional attack on a nearby building, to force them to shut the plant down and harming the Ukraine's electricity supplies. If that was the case, it looks like it has worked.
		
Click to expand...

Someone has more faith in the Russians than I do however those in the South appear to be far better trained than those in the North.


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## Smiffy (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Those in the South appear to be far better trained than those in the North.
		
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And if anything like the UK, better golfers, better looking and richer too
😉😉😉


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## Beezerk (Mar 4, 2022)

Wonder when the run on hazmat suits will start.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 4, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wonder when the run on hazmat suits will start.
		
Click to expand...

Surprised there isn't a run on toilet rolls, bottled water and tinned stuff already


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## DanFST (Mar 4, 2022)

There's a good read on the Russian Way of war by Dr Les Grau. 

The invasion doesn't look to be slowing, It looks to be going exactly to plan for Putin.


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surprised there isn't a run on toilet rolls, bottled water and tinned stuff already
		
Click to expand...

I think most people realise that if they do start hitting red buttons all you need to do is bend over and kiss your ass goodbye....


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 4, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Got to say I'm feeling your pessimism. Clearly a man without a grip on reality

Some of us go down in a blaze of obscurity
Some of us go down in a haze of publicity
The price of infamy, the edge of insanity
		
Click to expand...

For the first time in this mess, I’m starting to feel similar. Last nights speech he sounded exactly like a deranged abusive husband threatening to kill his wife (Ukraine) who wants to leave … how can you negotiate with a person like that, who’s already armed and killing and willing to take the rest of the world down with him.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			For the first time in this mess, I’m starting to feel similar. Last nights speech he sounded exactly like a deranged abusive husband threatening to kill his wife (Ukraine) who wants to leave … how can you negotiate with a person like that, who’s already armed and killing and willing to take the rest of the world down with him.
		
Click to expand...

Send in gazza and his fishing rod


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## SaintHacker (Mar 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I think most people realise that if they do start hitting red buttons all you need to do is bend over and kiss your ass goodbye....
		
Click to expand...

Probably better than the alternative 😳


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## SaintHacker (Mar 4, 2022)

The real question is what happens if/when russia take back Ukraine. At the moment we cannot, cannot get involved militarily, or we start WW3. We know Putin wants the old USSR back together, but will he stop there? If a russian soldier so much as puts a foot on NATO soil then all bets are off. Putin knows this, will he stop at the NATO border or risk armageddon starting a war he surley knows he can't win? Scary times indeed.


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## Smiffy (Mar 4, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			The real question is what happens if/when russia take back Ukraine. At the moment we cannot, cannot get involved militarily, or we start WW3. We know Putin wants the old USSR back together, but will he stop there? If a russian soldier so much as puts a foot on NATO soil then all bets are off. Putin knows this, will he stop at the NATO border or risk armageddon starting a war he surley knows he can't win? Scary times indeed.
		
Click to expand...

I picked the wrong day to give up smoking.


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## GB72 (Mar 4, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I picked the wrong day to give up smoking.
		
Click to expand...

If it keeps going like this, you picked the wrong decade to give up smoking.,


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## bobmac (Mar 4, 2022)

At least we can guess what the next Bond film will be about.
I wonder who will play the baddy...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I just hope I bump into LiverpoolPhil on my way across the universe so that I can say "I told you so".
He's gone very quiet.
		
Click to expand...

What is it that you “told me”

Nothing has changed - Russia haven’t breached into a NATO country to escalate , they haven’t used nuclear weapons , right now this is what they did in Georgia and also in Chechnya. 

this is also the same sort of stuff that’s going on in Israel against Palestine , UAE against Yemen and of course the NATO coalitions against Syria and Iraq 

Putin knows that NATO right now can’t do anything without a UN Resolution- that’s not going to happen at the moment , but Putin also knows that a step into NATO country would result in NATO stepping in. 

So once he splits Ukraine in two , puts his own puppet in charge the Ukraine will be another Georgia


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 4, 2022)

Perhaps it's time for the planet to cleanse itself of its most malignant infection:  humanity.
Going on isn't worth suffering clowns like Putin.  
Blessed are those at the nuclear detonation sites who will not die slowly.

Aren't we sick of being timid?
Let it rip!  Our best is behind us anyway, and in my case, that includes the golf course.


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## GB72 (Mar 4, 2022)

I have been critical of them over the last couple of yeears but big round of applause to the BBC, not only the jounalists abroad but especially for issuing statements and detailed and concise instructions on how to access their news reports in Russia and bypass the current blocks in place. 

On a lighter note, how come they can work out how to work around a goverment media blockage but have still not worked out a way to let me listen to Test Match Special on holiday.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)




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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What is it that you “told me”

Nothing has changed - Russia haven’t breached into a NATO country to escalate , they haven’t used nuclear weapons , right now this is what they did in Georgia and also in Chechnya.

*this is also the same sort of stuff that’s going on in Israel against Palestine , UAE against Yemen and of course the NATO coalitions against Syria and Iraq*

Putin knows that NATO right now can’t do anything without a UN Resolution- that’s not going to happen at the moment , but Putin also knows that a step into NATO country would result in NATO stepping in.

So once he splits Ukraine in two , puts his own puppet in charge the Ukraine will be another Georgia
		
Click to expand...

I'm going to throw it out there: This is NOT the same, unless you are suggesting a football match between two village sides is just the same as Brazil versus Argentina in the World Cup Final.

The incidents you say are just the same, as far as I remember, did not result in the major superpowers of the world, that have nuclear weapons, majorly squaring up to each other (and threatening the use of their nuclear arsenal). It did not involve huge sanctions that will likely cripple one of those major powers, and likely make them act even more desperately. They did not involve the invasion of an entire country of 40 million people, and the worst refugee crisis faced in the western world.

Most people would have said Putin could have predicted NATO would react in some significant way if he launched a full invasion of Ukraine. Many, if not most, of the leading experts in this area have come out and said that they were confident he would NEVER do this. They were wrong. So, to say Putin would not do this, or do that, is naïve. 

And, I don't think Putin is going to be able to simply turn Ukraine into another Georgia. Not with the population size, and the fact that Ukrainian rebels will likely be heavily armed, supported by the west, and will cause Russia huge problems.


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## GB72 (Mar 4, 2022)

Not sure who posted it earlier on this thread but someone was right, Sainsburys have changed the name of a chcken Kieve to a Chicken Kyiv


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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Perhaps it's time for the planet to cleanse itself of its most malignant infection:  humanity.
Going on isn't worth suffering clowns like Putin. 
Blessed are those at the nuclear detonation sites who will not die slowly.

Aren't we sick of being timid?
*Let it rip!  Our best is behind us anyway, and in my case, that includes the golf course.*

Click to expand...

Might be a lovely selfish attitude for the elderly, but it may be worth seeking peaceful resolutions as much as we can for the children and younger adults out there. You know, the same ones the elderly demanded stayed locked up to protect the elderly from Covid


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm going to throw it out there: This is NOT the same, unless you are suggesting a football match between two village sides is just the same as Brazil versus Argentina in the World Cup Final.

The incidents you say are just the same, as far as I remember, did not result in the major superpowers of the world, that have nuclear weapons, majorly squaring up to each other (and threatening the use of their nuclear arsenal). It did not involve huge sanctions that will likely cripple one of those major powers, and likely make them act even more desperately. They did not involve the invasion of an entire country of 40 million people, and the worst refugee crisis faced in the western world.

Most people would have said Putin could have predicted NATO would react in some significant way if he launched a full invasion of Ukraine. Many, if not most, of the leading experts in this area have come out and said that they were confident he would NEVER do this. They were wrong. So, to say Putin would not do this, or do that, is naïve.

And, I don't think Putin is going to be able to simply turn Ukraine into another Georgia. Not with the population size, and the fact that Ukrainian rebels will likely be heavily armed, supported by the west, and will cause Russia huge problems.
		
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Just because you don’t see it the same doesn’t mean it’s not the case - and it also shows the level of the Western Media bias 

You don’t get to see what goes on in Palestine on a daily basis , and the same with what’s going on with Yemen 

And the US highlighted regularly that Russia were going to invade into Ukraine? It wasn’t a sudden surprise , issues and bombing have been going on in Ukraine for years , did you not remember when he went into Crimea ? 

And refugees ? Have you not seen over the last ten years the level of refugees from Syria/Iraq. 


It’s going to be a messy civil war within Ukraine for a while now , but the west won’t go in with troops on the ground , or will involve a no fly zone.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 4, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Perhaps it's time for the planet to cleanse itself of its most malignant infection:  humanity.
Going on isn't worth suffering clowns like Putin. 
Blessed are those at the nuclear detonation sites who will not die slowly.

Aren't we sick of being timid?
Let it rip!  Our best is behind us anyway, and in my case, that includes the golf course.
		
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If you don’t like it here. No one is forcing you to stay!


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Might be a lovely selfish attitude for the elderly, but it may be worth seeking peaceful resolutions as much as we can for the children and younger adults out there. You know, the same ones the elderly demanded stayed locked up to protect the elderly from Covid 

Click to expand...

I appreciate your reasoning but at what stage is a peaceful solution placed above a humanitarian one? That was tried once before and ended in 6 years of where millions lost their lives.
I have similar thoughts as @Ye Olde Boomer but I’m old, I would be interested in how far others feel it should go before we stop rolling over.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I appreciate your reasoning but at what stage is a peaceful solution placed above a humanitarian one? That was tried once before and ended in 6 years of where millions lost their lives.
I have similar thoughts as @Ye Olde Boomer but I’m old, I would be interested in how far others feel it should go before we stop rolling over.
		
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I want Putin and his regime to suffer as much as anyone else. If they didn't have nuclear weapons, I'm pretty sure the approach from the west would have looked very different to what it does now.

But, for those that want to "let it rip", how exactly would they see that looking? Send masses of NATO into Ukraine to chase out the Russians? I would love to see that, and it would make an exciting movie. Except that, how would Russia realistically react? I believe they would be no match at all in conventional warfare against NATO + Ukraine. They are determined for the world seeing them as a superpower, like back in their Soviet days when they were one of the 2 main big wigs. So, unless the Russians kick Putin out of power and then blame him for a careless move, the only way he can hit back, as I see it, is start launching nukes. Is that a fair concern? Or do some still believe there is zero chance that would happen, if Russia were in direct conflict with NATO?


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I want Putin and his regime to suffer as much as anyone else. If they didn't have nuclear weapons, I'm pretty sure the approach from the west would have looked very different to what it does now.

But, for those that want to "let it rip", how exactly would they see that looking? Send masses of NATO into Ukraine to chase out the Russians? I would love to see that, and it would make an exciting movie. Except that, how would Russia realistically react? I believe they would be no match at all in conventional warfare against NATO + Ukraine. They are determined for the world seeing them as a superpower, like back in their Soviet days when they were one of the 2 main big wigs. So, unless the Russians kick Putin out of power and then blame him for a careless move, the only way he can hit back, as I see it, is start launching nukes. Is that a fair concern? Or do some still believe there is zero chance that would happen, if Russia were in direct conflict with NATO?
		
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Im not a “let it rip merchant”,  I just wonder how far *others *feel it should go before they feel the west should act.
PS, with the current deployment of NATO forces, the last place they would be chasing Russians is inside UKRAINE. And in a conventional war Russia would be defeated by NATO IMO.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I appreciate your reasoning but at what stage is a peaceful solution placed above a humanitarian one? That was tried once before and ended in 6 years of where millions lost their lives.
I have similar thoughts as @Ye Olde Boomer but I’m old, I would be interested in how far others feel it should go before we stop rolling over.
		
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We're not "rolling over". We are not the world police and Ukraine is not a NATO country. We don't have the right to go in and do anything more than we are doing. Just like we don't have the right to intervene with China's treatment of Uyghur muslims. Where we have got it wrong in the past is in intervening where we don't have that right.

The UN have the right to initiate sanctions against every UN country. NATO has the right to defend every NATO country. We don't have the right to do more than this. That is the entire point of having a voluntary organisation such as NATO, so that nobody feels they have the right to act as World Police. 

My hope in all of this is that every other democratic country joins a larger global defence alliance to act unilaterally against this. And that we reach out and educate non-democratic countries in the correct way so that we convince more of them to join us.


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## bobmac (Mar 4, 2022)

My hope is that the Russian people kick Putin out


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## Jimaroid (Mar 4, 2022)

The problem is not just beating Russia. If you take it to the extreme scenario, the combined forces of the UN and NATO very likely cannot beat Russia and China as allies.

I think the only way out of this mess is for Putin to do something stupid enough for China to turn on him. Contrary to opinion, I don't think Putin is crazy or stupid and he knows that is how he can get away with this.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			We're not "rolling over". We are not the world police and Ukraine is not a NATO country. We don't have the right to go in and do anything more than we are doing. Just like we don't have the right to intervene with China's treatment of Uyghur muslims. Where we have got it wrong in the past is in intervening where we don't have that right.

The UN have the right to initiate sanctions against every UN country. NATO has the right to defend every NATO country. We don't have the right to do more than this. That is the entire point of having a voluntary organisation such as NATO, so that nobody feels they have the right to act as World Police.

My hope in all of this is that every other democratic country joins a larger global defence alliance to act unilaterally against this. And that we reach out and educate non-democratic countries in the correct way so that we convince more of them to join us.
		
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Well the UN defence alliance failed in the former Yugoslavia.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Im not a “let it rip merchant”,  I just wonder how far *others *feel it should go before they feel the west should act.
PS, with the current deployment of NATO forces, the last place they would be chasing Russians is inside UKRAINE. And in a conventional war Russia would be defeated by NATO IMO.
		
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My feelings as someone younger (ish) with a young family is that it is concerning that, in my lifetime, we seem to be closer than ever to WW3 and, if Putin stays in power, it is inevitable that it'll happen as he's unlikely to stop at Ukraine. He will try other countries and attempt to put the USSR back together. If feels like NATO are eventually going to be pushed into it eventually and at that point it depends on how far it has to go.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			The problem is not just beating Russia. If you take it to the extreme scenario, the combined forces of the UN and NATO very likely cannot beat Russia and China as allies.

I think the only way out of this mess is for Putin to do something stupid enough for China to turn on him. Contrary to opinion, I don't think Putin is crazy or stupid and he knows that is how he can get away with this.
		
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I am not convinced that China are allies of Russia, they are an economic partner but I just cannot see them wanting to go to war with Russia. They want to dominate financially and I think that's how they measure success, anything that affects it is a problem and I suspect that is probably Russia at the moment.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			The problem is not just beating Russia. If you take it to the extreme scenario, the combined forces of the UN and NATO very likely cannot beat Russia and China as allies.

I think the only way out of this mess is for Putin to do something stupid enough for China to turn on him. Contrary to opinion, I don't think Putin is crazy or stupid and he knows that is how he can get away with this.
		
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Personally not sure how far Putin could really on China, especially when it comes to committing military asset’s.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			The problem is not just beating Russia. If you take it to the extreme scenario, the combined forces of the UN and NATO very likely cannot beat Russia and China as allies.

I think the only way out of this mess is for Putin to do something stupid enough for China to turn on him. Contrary to opinion, I don't think Putin is crazy or stupid and he knows that is how he can get away with this.
		
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Summed up well 

Putin is on his own here - and he knows the limits , as you say he isn’t stupid or crazy regardless of what people believe. 

He knows that NATO can’t do anything providing he stays in Ukraine and China won’t join in for a war.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Someone about to make one hell of an IED


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 4, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			My feelings as someone younger (ish) with a young family is that it is concerning that, in my lifetime, we seem to be closer than ever to WW3 and, if Putin stays in power, it is inevitable that it'll happen as he's unlikely to stop at Ukraine. He will try other countries and attempt to put the USSR back together. If feels like NATO are eventually going to be pushed into it eventually and at that point it depends on how far it has to go.
		
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Historical analogies can often be lazy, and I’m guilty here - the more I watch the more I’m reminded of what I read about Czechoslovakia c.1938, and then what happened in the following years. I also recall a Yes Minster episode about nuclear weapons - I accept that Putin has no desire to invade Western Europe, even in the most feverish delusions. But are we all really ready to turn London and Washington and everywhere else into nuclear ash to protect the independence of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania? After Ukraine, that maybe the question.

Maybe as other posters have opined, Putin is a grandmaster playing 3-dimensional geopolitical chess, but on current form I’m not so sure.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Historical analogies can often be lazy.

 But are we all really ready to turn London and Washington and everywhere else into nuclear ash to protect the independence of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania? After Ukraine, that maybe the question.
		
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History does have an unfortunate habit of repeating itself as ———— history shows.

As to the other bit - All members of NATO so you can adopt your own thoughts on that.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Historical analogies can often be lazy, and I’m guilty here - the more I watch the more I’m reminded of what I read about Czechoslovakia c.1938, and then what happened in the following years. I also recall a Yes Minster episode about nuclear weapons - I accept that Putin has no desire to invade Western Europe, even in the most feverish delusions. But are we all really ready to turn London and Washington and everywhere else into nuclear ash to protect the independence of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania? After Ukraine, that maybe the question.

Maybe as other posters have opined, Putin is a grandmaster playing 3-dimensional geopolitical chess, but on current form I’m not so sure.
		
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Should NATO sacrifice member countries because they are small and Russia decides to have ambitions on controling them?


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## Smiffy (Mar 4, 2022)

Sitting here watching 18 year old lads giving up their education and arming up to defend their country is heartbreaking.
My Son would be terrified.
Can only hope and pray that this all ends soon 
🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Should NATO sacrifice member countries because they are small and Russia decides to have ambitions on controling them?
		
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My point is this needs to be made absolutely explicit and the public conversation had (not just internationally but domestically). Because, if history shows us anything, Putin is likely to test it. He is threatening nuclear war over Ukraine and the west doesn’t want address domestically what it means for the Baltics so we don’t scare ourselves.
At Munich, the West tried rationalising with Hitler. Gave up Czechoslavakia and acted surprised when he swallowed the rest. He then called our bluff on Poland because we rolled over so easy on everything else, and then bullets started flying.

I’m not equating Putin with Hitler, but history may not repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes. As one of the earlier posters said, he is not likely stop at Ukraine given what he has publicly said and written. The more ready and explicit we are (which means a domestic discussion and buy-in) the less he may feel emboldened to test the Nato doctrine and think we’re bluffing. Unfortunately it may be a partial return to the 80s, until and unless the Russian people and elites themselves say enough is enough. I think this has gone beyond just renaming Chicken Kiev and oligarch money.


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## Dando (Mar 4, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Sitting here watching 18 year old lads giving up their education and arming up to defend their country is heartbreaking.
My Son would be terrified.
Can only hope and pray that this all ends soon
🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
		
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alot of 18 year olds are too busy being offended by hurty words and not having gender neutral bogs!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2022)

Dando said:



			alot of 18 year olds are too busy being offended by hurty words and not having gender neutral bogs!
		
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While a lot of other 18yr olds are in the Armed Forces proudly serving their Country and willing to put their life on the line.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 4, 2022)

Dando said:



			alot of 18 year olds are too busy being offended by hurty words and not having gender neutral bogs!
		
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Nearly as much as old people getting offended because people want to treat people equally!


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## SaintHacker (Mar 4, 2022)

My lads regiment have today been put on notice to deploy to eastern Europe at short notice. Not sure where but he thinks Poland or Estonia. Can't say I'm exactly entralled about it (especially as he only came back from a tour of the Falklands last week) but its what he signed up for, and hopefully if he does go it will only be for peace keeping/humanitarian reasons.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Well the UN defence alliance failed in the former Yugoslavia.
		
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There are absolutely zero similarities between those two situations. In fact, they are idiologically at polar opposite ends of the scale. This isn't a race/ethnic war, or a people war, it's a land war and nothing else. Yugoslavia was far more complex. 

Even if they were similar though, it doesn't change the fact that we don't have the right to do anything here. We are doing what we're supposed to do and following international law. It's what we didn't go when we went into Iraq and created a whole new generation of terrorists! How did that work out?


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2022)

Listening to an interview on the radio and an interesting question was asked. 

A lot of the issues of the present are as a result of the West allowing Putin so much freedom over the last however many years to do as he pleases with little intervention. Are we now at a point whereby the risk of an all out nuclear war is less if we intervene now and put him back in his box or if we let him get a ‘win’ (whatever that means) and then find ourselves in the same situation further down the line when he tries it with another country. 

The general consensus was that, whilst he is in power, the chances of the above are extremely high given his rationale for making putting the USSR back together.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

I'm not sure I understand those who are saying we need to get more prepared and be more public about defending NATO countries. Every Western leader has gone on record to say that NATO will defend every inch of every NATO country with the full united force. 
They have also talked openly about how this has brought the US and Europe closer together. 
All while they are amassing troops on the borders of NATO countries. 
What more are people expecting?


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Listening to an interview on the radio and an interesting question was asked.

A lot of the issues of the present are as a result of the West allowing Putin so much freedom over the last however many years to do as he pleases *with little intervention*. Are we now at a point whereby the risk of an all out nuclear war is less if we intervene now and put him back in his box or if we let him get a ‘win’ (whatever that means) and then find ourselves in the same situation further down the line when he tries it with another country.

The general consensus was that, whilst he is in power, the chances of the above are extremely high given his rationale for making putting the USSR back together.
		
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What sort of intervention would you have considered appropriate... a) back then?; b) now?


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			There are absolutely zero similarities between those two situations. In fact, they are idiologically at polar opposite ends of the scale. This isn't a race/ethnic war, or a people war, it's a land war and nothing else. Yugoslavia was far more complex.

Even if they were similar though, it doesn't change the fact that we don't have the right to do anything here. We are doing what we're supposed to do and following international law. It's what we didn't go when we went into Iraq and created a whole new generation of terrorists! How did that work out?
		
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I'm interested in your take on the differences between what is happening now and what was happening when I was in yugoslavia, my recollection was one man not accepting the sovereignty of another country, just like now,  but I was rather busy at the time so I might have got it wrong.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What sort of intervention would you have considered appropriate... a) back then?; b) now?
		
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The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos
		
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While I agree re Crimea, I consider the East Ukraine invasion simply the initial part of the current conflict. The build-up wasn't sanctionable. It lo needed Ukraine to instigate any request for assistance - and should have happened in 2014.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I'm interested in your take on the differences between what is happening now and what was happening when I was in yugoslavia, my recollection was one man not accepting the sovereignty of another country, just like now,  but I was rather busy at the time so I might have got it wrong.
		
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Old Skier said:



			The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos
		
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Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you. 

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you.

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.
		
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I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or anything I post. I have a view, you have a view, people are free to take either view whichever way they like.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			...
In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.
		
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I'm not sure about 'the Ukrainian people'. But certainly the Ukrainian territory/resources - aka somewhat reversing the breakup of USSR.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you.

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.
		
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So Putin is actually BORG. 

Problem is the UN is toothless, How can the country in question be allowed to veto , its rubbish
NATO if it does nothing will witness the slow demise of Ukraine , similar to Chechnia, we either allow it to happen, or we take steps to stop it.

in my opinion a no fly zone will work, Putin wont want to fight NATO, he will lose, Nato wont want to do anything to provoke him, but a couple of shot down jets is unlikely to result in nuclear conflict
Europe and Nato need to step up and show some grit, or its all going to happen again 5 years down the line in the Baltic.

Problem now is how does Putin withdraw and save face,
again just my opinion


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure about 'the Ukrainian people'. But certainly the Ukrainian territory/resources - aka somewhat reversing the breakup of USSR.
		
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Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or anything I post. I have a view, you have a view, people are free to take either view whichever way they like.
		
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Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So Putin is actually BORG.

Problem is the UN is toothless, How can the country in question be allowed to veto , its rubbish
NATO if it does nothing will witness the slow demise of Ukraine , similar to Chechnia, we either allow it to happen, or we take steps to stop it.

in my opinion a no fly zone will work, Putin wont want to fight NATO, he will lose, Nato wont want to do anything to provoke him, but a couple of shot down jets is unlikely to result in nuclear conflict
Europe and Nato need to step up and show some grit, or its all going to happen again 5 years down the line in the Baltic.

Problem now is how does Putin withdraw and save face,
again just my opinion
		
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Interesting  NATO meeting today with a briefing on what is going on in Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina because of the build up of our friendly Russian forces in Moldova. Not clever enough to link from Twitter.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?
		
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It it’s generally thought that NATO only operate when another NATO country is attacked but those rules went out of the window during the Serbian/Croatian conflict. What they are now, who knows, perhaps we might be adopting rules that help protect those that need protecting.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?
		
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And a quick one back, should we just let Putin take over any country he wishes, if not how do we stop him.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.
		
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It's not. 

Milosovic had the goal to exterminate non-Serbians from what he considered to be his home country. He was charged with ethnic-based genocide. The Yugoslavian wars are literally defined in history as Ethnic Wars. This is only about land and sovereignty. 

Putin has said that he sees Ukrainian's and Russians as one people. He's not killing them because they're not Russian, he's killing them because they're fighting back. 

Yugoslavia was a United nation that broke up after the wars. Ukraine has been a sovereign nation for more than 20 years. Putting something back together after many years isn't the same as stopping it breaking up. 

Apart from the fact that one man has too much power, they're are no similarities between these conflicts. 🤷‍♂️


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			It it’s generally thought that NATO only operate when another NATO country is attacked but those rules went out of the window during the Serbian/Croatian conflict. What they are now, who knows, perhaps we might be adopting rules that help protect those that need protecting.
		
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?


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## greenone (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?
		
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Correct, UN peacekeeping force.


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			And a quick one back, should we just let Putin take over any country he wishes, if not how do we stop him.
		
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As awful as it sounds, yes. 
Because the alternative is that we act as self appointed world police. 

We should only ever act when NATO countries are attacked or when the UN decide that action is needed. 

How many wars are going on right now? How many people are being persecuted daily? How many should we insist that we have the right to get involved in? 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Putin to be stopped. I'd kill him myself and happily die to do so if I could. But we are not the world police and it's the fact we've acted this way whenever it suits us (but not when it doesn't) that do many generations of non-Western people are so easily indoctrinated into hating us.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?
		
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We went in originally wearing a blue beret. It was a disaster and led to the inability to do anything in real time. Thankfully we threw away the blue and scrubbed the UN off the sides of our tanks and were able to act in real time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

greenone said:



			Correct, UN peacekeeping force.
		
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Went in as UN, left as NATO.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			As awful as it sounds, yes.
Because the alternative is that we act as self appointed world police.

We should only ever act when NATO countries are attacked or when the UN decide that action is needed.

How many wars are going on right now? How many people are being persecuted daily? How many should we insist that we have the right to get involved in?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Putin to be stopped. I'd kill him myself and happily die to do so if I could. But we are not the world police and it's the fact we've acted this way whenever it suits us (but not when it doesn't) that do many generations of non-Western people are so easily indoctrinated into hating us.
		
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That’s fine, you have your view, and I have mine and luckily we both have NATO and democracy allowing us to express our views. Unfortunately Ukraine and other countries don’t have that luxury.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.
		
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It would, indeed, be!
But that was not what I was meaning! And you probably know it! Or are, at least, confused/biased by your experience in Yugoslavia - which DID involve 'ethnic cleansing'!


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## phillarrow (Mar 4, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			That’s fine, you have your view, and I have mine and luckily we both have NATO and democracy allowing us to express our views. Unfortunately Ukraine and other countries don’t have that luxury.
		
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On that we can agree... but I'm still curious as to why NATO should protect the Ukrainian people but not, for example, Ethiopians, or Uyghar Muslims? 
Or do you feel that, given how ineffective the UN is, NATO *should* get involved in all global conflicts?


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			On that we can agree... but I'm still curious as to why NATO should protect the Ukrainian people but not, for example, Ethiopians, or Uyghar Muslims?
Or do you feel that, given how ineffective the UN is, NATO *should* get involved in all global conflicts?
		
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Unfortunately answering that is above my pay grade but I feel that is both political and and practical.  There is also something called intelligence info which may indicate that Putin has far bigger objectives. 
Before the start of the 2nd WW there was intelligence that Hitler had far bigger objectives than the ones he stated  the political elite didn't believe it. They may have learnt their lesson.
Who knows , anyway off for 4 days on the golf course  Trevose calls.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 6, 2022)

https://progressive.org/latest/inva...IhkbFDCxL19CVTXYMs3l3ukuKCDUwGQkNxu8Vgi2qEao4

Very good article

Also 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500439046451044355
😂😂😂


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## AmandaJR (Mar 6, 2022)

Spent the last couple of days with my nephew - he flies to Poland tomorrow morning. The efforts of his friends, friends of friends and random contacts have gone to in order to ensure he has all the kit he needs has overwhelmed him. Half his living room is full of kit but he's finally managed to sort out what he's going to take and the rest will be donated to others willing to make the trip over. It's been an emotional time and he's incredibly stressed but also incredibly determined to go. Last night he messaged "nighty night Aunty A" and I blubbed a wee bit at the thought of him miles from home, cold, in danger and trying to get his head down somewhere for some sleep. He said he'll try and message every night but that may not be possible and I'll be so worried if suddenly I don't get a message.

My poor Sister flew back to Spain yesterday and can't imagine how she's feeling as we all kind of held it together because he wasn't...

Sounds like he's one of many of our veterans going over to support Ukraine.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 6, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Spent the last couple of days with my nephew - he flies to Poland tomorrow morning. The efforts of his friends, friends of friends and random contacts have gone to in order to ensure he has all the kit he needs has overwhelmed him. Half his living room is full of kit but he's finally managed to sort out what he's going to take and the rest will be donated to others willing to make the trip over. It's been an emotional time and he's incredibly stressed but also incredibly determined to go. Last night he messaged "nighty night Aunty A" and I blubbed a wee bit at the thought of him miles from home, cold, in danger and trying to get his head down somewhere for some sleep. He said he'll try and message every night but that may not be possible and I'll be so worried if suddenly I don't get a message.

My poor Sister flew back to Spain yesterday and can't imagine how she's feeling as we all kind of held it together because he wasn't...

Sounds like he's one of many of our veterans going over to support Ukraine.
		
Click to expand...

All you can do is stay strong and try not to worry if the messages do dry up. Really feel for you though and I'd hate to have any loved one over there in any guise be that military, medical or some other capacity


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## road2ruin (Mar 6, 2022)

Reading the stories and seeing the photos of the Russian’s deliberately targeting civilians trying to escape the fighting has brought me round to the conclusion that war is well and truly here whether we like it or not. 

Putin has to be stopped either by his own lot (unlikely) or the rest of the world stepping in to do it. The consequences of this will probably be disastrous however WW3 looks like an inevitability at this point so it’s probably about time to call his bluff.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 6, 2022)

I wonder what Trump would've done if he was still in charge.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			I wonder what Trump would've done if he was still in charge.

Click to expand...

He'd have either gone to war, or pulled out of NATO completely. One extreme or the other.

I'd wonder what Putin would have done had Trump still been in power? Maybe he thought Biden would be a pushover, whereas Trump completely unpredictable.


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## RichA (Mar 6, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			I wonder what Trump would've done if he was still in charge.

Click to expand...

Whatever his handler in Moscow told him to do.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://progressive.org/latest/inva...IhkbFDCxL19CVTXYMs3l3ukuKCDUwGQkNxu8Vgi2qEao4

Very good article

Also


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500439046451044355
😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Blimey how old is Pvt Pikeski, About 17?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			I wonder what Trump would've done if he was still in charge.

Click to expand...

I'm just grateful he isn't.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 6, 2022)

Do we think Putin would have done this if Trump was still President?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 6, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm just grateful he isn't.
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer


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## IanM (Mar 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Do we think Putin would have done this if Trump was still President?
		
Click to expand...

Well, we had 4 years of demonstration of what he did with Trump there.

I wonder if the change od occupant of the White House gave Putin any encouragement? (And, I don't mean that The Prez rang up and encouraged him!)

I am no expert,  but I think the Western response has been WWW3 avoidance first.... if you see what I mean


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## phillarrow (Mar 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Do we think Putin would have done this if Trump was still President?
		
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Without meaning to get too political, I wonder if Putin has been emboldened by what he saw as a more fractured West. 

Trump has polarised America like never before, and to the point of verging on civil war. 
Brexit polarised Britain and Europe to a greater extent than we've seen since WW2. 

My gut instinct is that Putin thought we would not be this united against him, as a result of the infighting he saw in us for the last decade or so.


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## RichA (Mar 6, 2022)

Wasn't there some suggestion that the Kremlin was behind the social media influenced polarisation of the US that ended in Trump's election 6 years ago?
I think this is a long game for Putin that was hatched years ago.


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## phillarrow (Mar 6, 2022)

RichA said:



			Wasn't there some suggestion that the Kremlin was behind the social media influenced polarisation of the US that ended in Trump's election 6 years ago?
I think this is a long game for Putin that was hatched years ago.
		
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Yes. Despite the way it was handled in the senate, the investigation gave clear and unequivocal proof that Putin had meddled in the election and Russia was behind the attempts to secure Trump's presidency. 
And lo and behold, the first thing Trump said about the invasion was the Putin is a genius! 

As you say, Putin has been hatching this for years.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Yes. Despite the way it was handled in the senate, the investigation gave clear and unequivocal proof that Putin had meddled in the election and Russia was behind the attempts to secure Trump's presidency.
And lo and behold, the first thing Trump said about the invasion was the Putin is a genius!

As you say, Putin has been hatching this for years.
		
Click to expand...

Not just USA.. brexit had heavy russian interference and a lot of Russian money in our current gov 

Building for ages ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 6, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500518522123862025
Not sure if this is Shells wisest move they have made

Also been lots of arrests in Russia with people protesting against the invasion 

Been some great stuff from people in the uk donating lots if essentials 


I still have that little question hiding -not taking anything away from Ukraine why is there not the same outrage for the actions in Yemen or Palestine , do our western media ignore it so it’s not in our thoughts ?


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## BrianM (Mar 6, 2022)

I’m good friends with a few Americans and they say that Putin would never off went ahead with his plans had Trump been in charge.
They feel they are a weaker country with Biden in charge.
I’m not sure myself as I’m not right up there with American politics but it certainly seems plausible…..


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’m good friends with a few Americans and they say that Putin would never off went ahead with his plans had Trump been in charge.
They feel they are a weaker country with Biden in charge.
I’m not sure myself as I’m not right up there with American politics but it certainly seems plausible…..
		
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I guess, in general, Americans that vote Republican would say that. Americans that vote Democrat would say the opposite.


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## BrianM (Mar 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess, in general, Americans that vote Republican would say that. Americans that vote Democrat would say the opposite.
		
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I’d almost say the same but I believe a lot of people that vote Democrat aren’t that happy with Biden.
From what I’ve personally seen he doesn’t seem like a strong leader.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 6, 2022)

Veering towards politics
Can we veer away, agree it’s difficult.


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## BrianM (Mar 6, 2022)

Beedee said:



			That Russia interfered in the 2016 election against the Democrats is beyond dispute.  The amount of interference, and its success, is open to conjecture.
That Trump has disparaged Nato and European defence is a matter of public record. 
It's a fairly easy argument to make that Putin might not have expected to see much objection or action coming from a Trump government.
		
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What’s your point?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Veering towards politics
Can we veer away, agree it’s difficult.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, but is any mention of Putin politics?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Ok, but is any mention of Putin politics?
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. If you say that Putin looks a bit like Dobby the House Elf from Harry Potter that's not political.

Although if I start glowing in the dark you'll know that he's read this and sent his agents after me.


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## Beedee (Mar 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What’s your point?
		
Click to expand...

I deleted my post as I regretted posting something that might be political.  

I was trying to imply that there's arguments that Russia would see both sides of current American politics as having exploitable weaknesses, and so neither side would have made much difference to Putin's plans.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 7, 2022)

Nephew has flown out. He was chuffed as he got priority boarding and then got on the plane and pretty much empty - no wonder really!

The good news is he met an ex para at the airport on the same flight - I certainly feel a bit easier knowing he's not completely on his own.


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## RichA (Mar 7, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Nephew has flown out. He was chuffed as he got priority boarding and then got on the plane and pretty much empty - no wonder really!

The good news is he met an ex para at the airport on the same flight - I certainly feel a bit easier knowing he's not completely on his own.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck to him. Brave young man. I wish I had his courage.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Nephew has flown out.
		
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If to Ukraine, why?


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## Dando (Mar 7, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Nephew has flown out. He was chuffed as he got priority boarding and then got on the plane and pretty much empty - no wonder really!

The good news is he met an ex para at the airport on the same flight - I certainly feel a bit easier knowing he's not completely on his own.
		
Click to expand...

i don't mean this disrespectfully but it does it feel odd to like your posts about your nephew flying into a war zone to help out. 

hats off to him as i am not sure i would do it


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## DanFST (Mar 7, 2022)

Spoke to my pal the other night with multiple tours. 

He's concerned "the hardo's" with no military experience going out may cause more harm than good. Something i've not even considered. However just seen a video of 3 chaps going out. One ex military, the other two without have union jacks on their plate carrier. This might not end well.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Spoke to my pal the other night with multiple tours.

He's concerned "the hardo's" with no military experience going out may cause more harm than good. Something i've not even considered. However just seen a video of 3 chaps going out. One ex military, the other two without have* union jacks on their plate carrier.* This might not end well.
		
Click to expand...

This did concern me a tad!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 7, 2022)

Glasgow shows support.
Glasgow's Duke of Wellington statue gets new Ukrainian traffic cone - STV News


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## backwoodsman (Mar 7, 2022)

Heard a nice idea over the weekend  - someone had booked an air-bnb stay at a property in Ukraine. Obviously they had no intention of going but thought the property owner needed some support (& indeed some money). I know it's a drop in the ocean but I liked the idea.


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## stefanovic (Mar 7, 2022)

Recent advice on what to do in case of nuclear attack issued 4 days ago.

Nuclear Explosion | Ready.gov 

So don't think you can get into your vehicle and head away from it.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Recent advice on what to do in case of nuclear attack issued 4 days ago.

Nuclear Explosion | Ready.gov

So don't think you can get into your vehicle and head away from it.
		
Click to expand...

Best place to be is inside the initial blast radius.


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## stefanovic (Mar 7, 2022)

How do you know when and where that is?

My advice is to get inside ASAP.
At home keep all windows closed at all times. Seal off vents. 
Seek out a cupboard if it is large enough and stay in there with a radio.
Keep tinned food and bottles of water handy.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Recent advice on what to do in case of nuclear attack issued 4 days ago.

Nuclear Explosion | Ready.gov

So don't think you can get into your vehicle and head away from it.
		
Click to expand...

The advice is like Covid restrictions on steroids.


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## stefanovic (Mar 7, 2022)

Covid may well have gone some way to preparing us for the possibility of this.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Covid may well have gone some way to preparing us for the possibility of this.
		
Click to expand...

Will the unvaccinated be allowed in the nuclear bunkers?


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## BiMGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			How do you know when and where that is?

My advice is to get inside ASAP.
At home keep all windows closed at all times. Seal off vents.
Seek out a cupboard if it is large enough and stay in there with a radio.
Keep tinned food and bottles of water handy.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not that difficult to imagine where the likely targets would be. 
I’ve watched enough Walking Dead to know how to survive in a post apocalyptic world. Would I want to? Hell no!


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## AmandaJR (Mar 7, 2022)

rulefan said:



			If to Ukraine, why?
		
Click to expand...

To Poland and then taken across the border to join the International Brigade (he's ex army).


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## stefanovic (Mar 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Will the unvaccinated be allowed in the nuclear bunkers?
		
Click to expand...

They won't ask questions like that.
You won't have enough time to reach a bunker. Just get inside and make sure all windows are closed.
Don't drive off because radiation will get inside your vehicle in some way, probably through the vents..


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## road2ruin (Mar 7, 2022)

Here's a particularly depressing exercise if you want to run through any scenarios.....

NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein (nuclearsecrecy.com)


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## IanM (Mar 7, 2022)

In case of nuclear war, all the advise required is here

I am heading for The Senedd in Cardiff Bay on the assumption that they are of similar political ilk to the Ruskies and will therefore not be a target!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			In case of nuclear war, all the advise required is here

I am heading for The Senedd in Cardiff Bay on the assumption that they are of similar political ilk to the Ruskies and will therefore not be a target!
		
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I'll be heading straight for central London.. no point trying to escape. Best to die instantly


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## stefanovic (Mar 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll be heading straight for central London.. no point trying to escape. Best to die instantly
		
Click to expand...

That could be sage advice.
"Survivors of a nuclear attack would have about *15 minutes* before sandlike radioactive particles, known as nuclear fallout, reached the ground. Exposure to fallout can result in radiation poisoning, which can damage the body's cells and prove fatal."
Issued 3 days ago.


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## GB72 (Mar 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll be heading straight for central London.. no point trying to escape. Best to die instantly
		
Click to expand...

I would be off to the pub with my wife and friends to say my goodbyes with a beer in my hand.


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## road2ruin (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			That could be sage advice.
"Survivors of a nuclear attack would have about *15 minutes* before sandlike radioactive particles, known as nuclear fallout, reached the ground. Exposure to fallout can result in radiation poisoning, which can damage the body's cells and prove fatal."
Issued 3 days ago.
		
Click to expand...

The rate of decay of the radiation from a bomb is actually pretty fast, by staying indoors (assuming your home is still standing) for a week after the blast would limit the high level of radiation that would damage your body. That said the continued low level radiation would eventually do its damage and you have all the other 'post bomb' issues to contend with.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			They won't ask questions like that.
You won't have enough time to reach a bunker. Just get inside and make sure all windows are closed.
Don't drive off because radiation will get inside your vehicle in some way, probably through the vents..
		
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Did you assume that was a serious question?


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## backwoodsman (Mar 7, 2022)

Just practice bending over  backwards.   So you can kiss your  ...................


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## The Lion (Mar 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			In case of nuclear war, all the advise required is here

I am heading for The Senedd in Cardiff Bay on the assumption that they are of similar political ilk to the Ruskies and will therefore not be a target!
		
Click to expand...

Hah! Ironic considering that Putin is an ideological opposite to most of what we have here in UK & Ireland.


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## IanM (Mar 7, 2022)

The Lion said:



			Hah! Ironic considering that Putin is an ideological opposite to most of what we have here in UK & Ireland.
		
Click to expand...

"Most" would be correct

Actually,  I apologise for being flippant in a thread like this.  Maybe it reflects how blooming hopeless the situation is becoming.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 7, 2022)

Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?


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## IanM (Mar 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

No one currently alive.


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## RichA (Mar 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

We just need to send Chris Whitty.


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## bobmac (Mar 7, 2022)

The best place to be is next to the person who pushed the button


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

Piers Morgan? Graham Norton? Ant and Dec? Bieber?

I'm trying to think outside the box here.


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## JamesR (Mar 7, 2022)




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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Piers Morgan? Graham Norton? Ant and Dec? Bieber?

I'm trying to think outside the box here.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure your Piers Morgan suggestion will make the cut . I admire your attempt though


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## JamesR (Mar 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

Trump ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Trump ?
		
Click to expand...



Who knows though? Definitely out of the box thinking.


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## Dando (Mar 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Will the unvaccinated be allowed in the nuclear bunkers?
		
Click to expand...

no, and neither are people who wear black socks


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## GB72 (Mar 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Piers Morgan? Graham Norton? Ant and Dec? Bieber?

I'm trying to think outside the box here.
		
Click to expand...

I say they send Timmy Mallett and they get a whack with Mallet's Mallett every time their country carries out an act of agression. Either that or it is settled on the It's a Knockout Course or over the final round of We Are the Champions.


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## Crazyface (Mar 7, 2022)

I can't think how this can possibly be sorted. Everyone had a try before Putin kicked off and failed. Where can they go from here?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2022)

So to date, all of 50 Ukrainian refugees admitted to the UK, meanwhile 130+ turned back at Calais and told to go to Brussels or Paris to have their application processed.  Put aside the potential UK targets for Russian attacks, all very interesting and to be aware of.  But all of that is theoretical and in the future.  The refugee crisis is real and right now, and the UK response to it something that we are in complete control of, so no slopey shouldering of the blame allowed.  I’m ashamed and angry but not surprised.


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## greenone (Mar 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So to date, all of 50 Ukrainian refugees admitted to the UK, meanwhile 130+ turned back at Calais and told to go to Brussels or Paris to have their application processed.  Put aside the potential UK targets for Russian attacks, all very interesting and to be aware of.  But all of that is theoretical and in the future.  The refugee crisis is real and right now, and the UK response to it something that we are in complete control of, so no slopey shouldering of the blame allowed.  I’m ashamed and angry but not surprised.
		
Click to expand...

Its ironic that the home secretarys parents who were refugees would not have been allowed into this country if the current rules were in place back then.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So to date, all of 50 Ukrainian refugees admitted to the UK, meanwhile 130+ turned back at Calais and told to go to Brussels or Paris to have their application processed.  Put aside the potential UK targets for Russian attacks, all very interesting and to be aware of.  But all of that is theoretical and in the future.  The refugee crisis is real and right now, and the UK response to it something that we are in complete control of, so no slopey shouldering of the blame allowed.  I’m ashamed and angry but not surprised.
		
Click to expand...

Politics, Politics, Politics


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## RichA (Mar 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Politics, Politics, Politics 

Click to expand...

I try to steer clear of politics on here and in real life. I don't see anything more political in expressing shame at the lack of assistance the country is providing when thousands of its citizens are willing to sponsor Ukrainian evacuees than anything else that's being posted on here.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 7, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			I can't think how this can possibly be sorted. Everyone had a try before Putin kicked off and failed. Where can they go from here?
		
Click to expand...

Everyone is hoping that Putin's chef steps up....


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s not that difficult to imagine where the likely targets would be.
I’ve watched enough Walking Dead to know how to survive in a post apocalyptic world. Would I want to? Hell no!

View attachment 41662

Click to expand...

Wales look pretty well donald ducked if there is an easterly wind blowing. 
North of the Great Glen looks like the best place to be.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 7, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wales look pretty well donald ducked if there is an easterly wind blowing. 
North of the Great Glen looks like the best place to be.
		
Click to expand...

Been trying for years to get HID to consider a croft on Skye. Now might be the time?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 7, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Been trying for years to get HID to consider a croft on Skye. Now might be the time?
		
Click to expand...

Irrespective of what is going on in the world you should try it.
You could not get a more distinctly different lifestyle than the Western Isles and Souff Lunnon.
Crofting is hard work mind, long hours tied to the land and little profit in the end.

Trouble with Skye is it is full of  'non Scots' and tourists.
I would choose Mull, lowly populated mainly by friendly Mulleons, much more spacious, cheaper to buy property and milder weather.
Only problem is the ferry and the awful whisky they still.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

David Attenborough?


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## Smiffy (Mar 8, 2022)




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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 8, 2022)

Golfmmad said:



			David Attenborough?
		
Click to expand...

A voice to soothe all of the anger. If only.............


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## GreiginFife (Mar 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well you lot have thoroughly depressed me now.

Trying to think more positively, which world leader, or elder statesman, could come in at this point and broker a peace deal? Who has the gravitas to carry it off?
		
Click to expand...

There’s only one man that can do it…


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## chrisd (Mar 8, 2022)

Dando said:



			no, and neither are people who wear black socks
		
Click to expand...

Especially if they've parked in the wrong car park!


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## Dando (Mar 8, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There’s only one man that can do it…
View attachment 41677

Click to expand...

Chuck Norris will be my preferred option


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 8, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There’s only one man that can do it…
View attachment 41677

Click to expand...


He's almost as unhinged as ras Putin


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## GreiginFife (Mar 8, 2022)

Dando said:



			Chuck Norris will be my preferred option
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but Chuck don’t love no commies


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2022)

There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.


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## RichA (Mar 8, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

There's going to be an opportunity for UK citizens to sponsor Ukrainian evacuees on the gov.uk "levelling up" site, but it's currently awaiting publication.
Even the Defence Secretary has acknowledged it needs to be sped up.


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## road2ruin (Mar 8, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.
		
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I don't think anyone here is unaware of the suffering of those in Ukraine and I'm sure a lot will be helping in whatever way they see fit. I don't agree that the discussion about a nuclear attack is juvenile, it's one of a number of very real outcomes to this present situation. Hopefully it is one of the least likely (I sincerely hope so) but it is still there as a possibility so I fail to see why it cropping up in this thread as being 'juvenile'.


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## Imurg (Mar 8, 2022)




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## Smiffy (Mar 8, 2022)

RichA said:



			There's going to be an opportunity for UK citizens to sponsor Ukrainian evacuees on the gov.uk "levelling up" site, but it's currently awaiting publication.
Even the Defence Secretary has acknowledged it needs to be sped up.
		
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We'd willingly accommodate a Ukrainian family


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

Heard on radio this morning and so pulled up video.  And in these days of sadness, pain, anger, division, fear and strife did this bring a tear to my eye...?  I think it did.  Triggering feelings from a simpler time - I must have loved this back then.  I watch again, and again...😢

I want you to make love not war...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.
		
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I posted similar a couple of days ago - there is a real and present thing that we and the country can do now but that at the moment we are failing at as the system is preventing or at best holding it up.

We had the discussion yesterday and yes - we would also accomodate a Ukranian family...so dear Borders Agency...open the doors .... please.??.


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## phillarrow (Mar 9, 2022)

For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here. 
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2022)

Our village is twinned with a village in Ukraine. It never used to mean much to me beyond my general outlook of one world one life. It's starting to mean a lot more than that now, with the Ukraine flags flying on entry to the village every morning while doing the school drop off. I know we could do so much more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here.
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.
		
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So how come most other European countries are willing to do it...and most Ukrainians who are able and wanting to come are women and children, and many if not most will be staying with relatives. Sorry.  But it's just not good enough - there is a risk but it is a risk that we can manage and that I feel we must take.  The UK Borders Force is completely failing us and the people of Ukraine.


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## greenone (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So how come most other European countries are willing to do it...and most Ukrainians who are able and wanting to come are women and children, and many if not most will be staying with relatives. Sorry.  But it's just not good enough - there is a risk but it is a risk that we can manage and that I feel we must take.  The UK Borders Force is completely failing us and the people of Ukraine.
		
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I wouldn't blame border force as such, they are just following the latest political policy dictat from the home office.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here.
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.
		
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So two people being poisoned and one person being killed when we weren't letting Ukrainian refugees into the country is a good reason not to let Ukrainian refugees into the country? That's some weird logic you're using there.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			So two people being poisoned and one person being killed when we weren't letting Ukrainian refugees into the country is a good reason not to let Ukrainian refugees into the country? That's some weird logic you're using there.
		
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Surely it has nothing to do with letting Ukrainian refugees into the country, as we are. It is that it seems to be very inefficient.

Pre Ukraine War, security measures were presumably in place for a reason? Now that the war has begun, presumably those reasons to have security at the border have not disappeared? In fact, they could be more important than ever, as anyone up to illegal activities of any kind are likely to see this volatile period as the perfect time to be opportunistic. So, simply scrapping security measures seems counter productive? That is the logical argument, and has nothing to do with not wanting to help Ukrainian refugees whose lives have been destroyed. Of course we want to help them as much as we can. Ideally, rather than scrapping security measures, we'd want to scale up resources in this area to not only improve security at this volatile time, but make it much more efficient and easier for these refugees. What that would take, I am unsure, but presumably one of the things would be many more staff in Calais to help in the process, rather than sending refugees off to Paris or Brussels to get processed.


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## RichA (Mar 9, 2022)

Just how deep do you think the security checks were on the 19 million foreign individuals who entered the UK in the last 12 months?
Generally, it's a flash of a passport and visa, where necessary, with any flagged persons being stopped for further checks. 
The UK isn't as free and easy with border control as other European nations, but it's never been "secure". 
Most of the evacuees are women, children and the elderly. We need to get on with it or stop trotting out the, "Standing shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine line." It's an insult to these poor people when we should be bending over backwards to accommodate them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Surely it has nothing to do with letting Ukrainian refugees into the country,* as we are. It is that it seems to be very inefficient.

Pre Ukraine War, security measures were presumably in place for a reason? Now that the war has begun, presumably those reasons to have security at the border have not disappeared? In fact, they could be more important than ever, as anyone up to illegal activities of any kind are likely to see this volatile period as the perfect time to be opportunistic. So, simply scrapping security measures seems counter productive? That is the logical argument, and has nothing to do with not wanting to help Ukrainian refugees whose lives have been destroyed. Of course we want to help them as much as we can. Ideally, rather than scrapping security measures, we'd want to scale up resources in this area to not only improve security at this volatile time, but make it much more efficient and easier for these refugees. What that would take, I am unsure, but presumably one of the things would be many more staff in Calais to help in the process, rather than sending refugees off to Paris or Brussels to get processed.
		
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On *this *I fear that you may be correct...but perhaps not in the way that is meant.  Indeed the process may be very efficient.  UK response to the refugee crisis is shameful and is being seen for what it is far and wide across the globe.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On *this *I fear that you may be correct...but perhaps not in the way that is meant.  Indeed the process may be very efficient.  UK response to the refugee crisis is shameful and is being seen for what it is far and wide across the globe.
		
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There is no doubt it is under the microscope, and no doubt there must be huge flaws in what we are doing, and ways in which we could do it a lot lot better.

I'm not an expert in border security, the level of threats the UK potentially face on a regular basis and the sort of things that need to be done to manage this. Like most of us, I read various media reports, many of which are opinion based, and focus very much on the emotive element to draw us in to the story. So, of course our hearts are fully with the Ukrainian people, and rightly we want to help them as much as we possibly can. If we are not doing that, we need to strive to ensure we can improve on that as much as humanly possible.

My only part in this current discussion was that I don't think the solution can be as simple as "open the borders", end off. I mean, if one thinks our border security is too harsh in normal times, then feel free to argue that (as I said in my opening line, I don't know how strong or weak our system generally is, and clearly different people have different opinions anyway). But, from an assumption that our regular border control is considered generally reasonable, then by definition, simply opening the borders by removing some of the processes would weaken that, thus again by definition would give us a weaker border control. And, at a time where people could be looking to exploit it more than usual. So, it would make sense to focus more in improving the system, whilst this crisis is ongoing, so that it remains secure, yet much more efficient for those trying to use it. Furthermore, it would also make a lot of sense in putting a lot of effort in helping European countries, especially those in eastern Europe, in accommodating refugees in their own countries. Most refugees are likely going to want to stay close to Ukraine (as their President requests), and so it would be good to see us help the likes of Poland in setting up hotels / accommodation / other resources to make this as easy as possible. I'm not sure what we are doing in this area. And, of course, it would be great if we could commit 100% to all of these things, but appreciate there is a balance to be had, and stepping up efforts in some areas can mean stepping down efforts in other areas, simply based on our own resources.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			There is no doubt it is under the microscope, and no doubt there must be huge flaws in what we are doing, and ways in which we could do it a lot lot better.

I'm not an expert in border security, the level of threats the UK potentially face on a regular basis and the sort of things that need to be done to manage this. Like most of us, I read various media reports, many of which are opinion based, and focus very much on the emotive element to draw us in to the story. So, of course our hearts are fully with the Ukrainian people, and rightly we want to help them as much as we possibly can. If we are not doing that, we need to strive to ensure we can improve on that as much as humanly possible.

My only part in this current discussion was that I don't think the solution can be as simple as "open the borders", end off. I mean, if one thinks our border security is too harsh in normal times, then feel free to argue that (as I said in my opening line, I don't know how strong or weak our system generally is, and clearly different people have different opinions anyway). But, from an assumption that our regular border control is considered generally reasonable, then by definition, simply opening the borders by removing some of the processes would weaken that, thus again by definition would give us a weaker border control. And, at a time where people could be looking to exploit it more than usual. So, it would make sense to focus more in improving the system, whilst this crisis is ongoing, so that it remains secure, yet much more efficient for those trying to use it. Furthermore, it would also make a lot of sense in putting a lot of effort in helping European countries, especially those in eastern Europe, in accommodating refugees in their own countries. Most refugees are likely going to want to stay close to Ukraine (as their President requests), and so it would be good to see us help the likes of Poland in setting up hotels / accommodation / other resources to make this as easy as possible. I'm not sure what we are doing in this area. And, of course, it would be great if we could commit 100% to all of these things, but appreciate there is a balance to be had, and stepping up efforts in some areas can mean stepping down efforts in other areas, simply based on our own resources.
		
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All may be true, but if I am escaping war I am not sure that minimising geographical separation from my home country for ease of return is going to be the main consideration to where I might want to seek refuge.  For some it may be, for others - especially those with friends and family in the UK - that will not be the main consideration.  Indeed for ease of return what is the difference between UK and such as France and Germany, France after all is all of 22miles from the UK, and Germany is only a four hour drive from Calais.

And I am afraid that the 'flaws' that you refer to may well be by design...besides, there has been plenty of time to change or minimise the process for Ukrainian refugees given the risk of invasion has been present for many weeks, if not a few months.

Separately I am hearing that UK is looking at providing Ukraine with Starstreak (hypervelocity) surface-to-air air defence missiles.  I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile, a missile supplied by the UK with the specific purpose of downing Russian aircraft, will be received in Moscow...


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Excellent action by Andy Murray. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/60673527


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## Swango1980 (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All may be true, *but if I am escaping war I am not sure that minimising geographical separation from my home country for ease of return is going to be the main consideration to where I might want to seek refuge.*  For some it may be, for others - especially those with friends and family in the UK - that will not be the main consideration.  Indeed for ease of return what is the difference between UK and such as France and Germany, France after all is all of 22miles from the UK, and Germany is only a four hour drive from Calais.

And I am afraid that the 'flaws' that you refer to may well be by design...besides, there has been plenty of time to change or minimise the process for Ukrainian refugees given the risk of invasion has been present for many weeks, if not a few months.

Separately I am hearing that UK is looking at providing Ukraine with Starstreak (hypervelocity) surface-to-air air defence missiles.  I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile, a missile supplied by the UK with the specific purpose of downing Russian aircraft, will be received in Moscow...
		
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Of course, to be clear, I hope I didn't give the impression I said that would be the case for all Ukrainians. Undoubtedly, some will want to come to the UK, hence the problems we are hearing about. However, when looking at the issue in its entirety, then I would not be at all surprised if the significant majority of refugees wished to stay in a country closer to Ukraine, therefore those countries will experience the major pressure. It would be interesting to be given a % split as to the ideal destination in terms of which country refugees are ultimately aiming for, but I'd expect it to be pretty low for the UK relatively speaking. Furthermore, even if refugees were equally spreading across every European country, they have to first get into, and travel through eastern European countries before getting to the UK, so Eastern European countries would still need to cope with the major brunt of the crisis.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Excellent action by Andy Murray. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/60673527

Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be nice to see other sports people, such as highly paid footballers, donate their prize money or salaries to Ukraine for a year. I believe Paul Pogba earned £15.08 million last year, I am sure he is pretty comfortable in life? Therefore, would be a nice gesture. Mind you, I'd imagine they'd worry they'd become a target of Putin's poison loving spies.


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## road2ruin (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Separately I am hearing that UK is looking at providing Ukraine with Starstreak (hypervelocity) surface-to-air air defence missiles.  I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile, a missile supplied by the UK with the specific purpose of downing Russian aircraft, will be received in Moscow...
		
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Is that much difference from the Russian tanks that have been blown up by javelin missiles though? He's already got reason to go to war with the rest of Europe if he really wants to.


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## RichA (Mar 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Wouldn't it be nice to see other sports people, such as highly paid footballers, donate their prize money or salaries to Ukraine for a year. I believe Paul Pogba earned £15.08 million last year, I am sure he is pretty comfortable in life? Therefore, would be a nice gesture. Mind you, I'd imagine they'd worry they'd become a target of Putin's poison loving spies.
		
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Maybe some of them do it but believe that generosity is more sincere if you don't publicise it.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 9, 2022)

RichA said:



			Maybe some of them do it but believe that generosity is more sincere if you don't publicise it.
		
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Perhaps. Certainly, if the only reason to publicise it was "hey everyone, look how great I am" then that wouldn't exactly be overly admirable. However, the positive side of publicising it is that it brings it to people's attention and may well encourage others to do more themselves. No point in asking high profile people to act like good role models, when they hide all their good deeds from the world after all.

P.S. However, on a hunch, I doubt Paul Pogba is donating all his salary to Ukraine. Just guessing though.


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## Smiffy (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile will be received in Moscow...
		
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In lots of little bits I would imagine.
Like an Airfix kit 😉😉😉


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## Dando (Mar 9, 2022)

we've got friends who live in Fairford and apparently its been pretty busy there the last 10 or so days


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## phillarrow (Mar 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely it has nothing to do with letting Ukrainian refugees into the country, as we are. It is that it seems to be very inefficient.

Pre Ukraine War, security measures were presumably in place for a reason? Now that the war has begun, presumably those reasons to have security at the border have not disappeared? In fact, they could be more important than ever, as anyone up to illegal activities of any kind are likely to see this volatile period as the perfect time to be opportunistic. So, simply scrapping security measures seems counter productive? That is the logical argument, and has nothing to do with not wanting to help Ukrainian refugees whose lives have been destroyed. Of course we want to help them as much as we can. Ideally, rather than scrapping security measures, we'd want to scale up resources in this area to not only improve security at this volatile time, but make it much more efficient and easier for these refugees. What that would take, I am unsure, but presumably one of the things would be many more staff in Calais to help in the process, rather than sending refugees off to Paris or Brussels to get processed.
		
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This. I have never suggested we shouldn't help, or that we shouldn't take more. I just don't believe that scrapping all security checks is a good idea. 

For those that have asked what we should do, in addition to the suggestion above of increasing our capacity to carry out checks, I believe we should have set up a direct resettlement process from Ukraine's neighbours, especially Poland. So the refugees are checked and processed there and then re-settled here. That, in my view, would be better for everyone that asking them to make their way to France and Germany and then asking our border control to take over their application.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Separately I am hearing that UK is looking at providing Ukraine with Starstreak (hypervelocity) surface-to-air air defence missiles.  I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile, a missile supplied by the UK with the specific purpose of downing Russian aircraft, will be received in Moscow...
		
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Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.


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## phillarrow (Mar 9, 2022)

I would also ask - how many of those who have said you would happily take in a Ukrainian family, or feel we should totally open our borders without checks in order to speed up their evacuation, have said the same about the ongoing situation in Ethiopia? 
Have you offered a bed to Uyghar Muslims? 
Have you reached out to those from Myanmar? 
Should refugees from all this places also be offered immediate, unchecked resettlement here, temporary or otherwise? 

What's happening in Ukraine is genocide and the whole world should step up to support them... but terrible things are happening elsewhere too. Have you spoken out so vehemently about those atrocities?


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

The beauty of the T80 is that it has a very good system of blowing itself up.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

Starstreak on its way which should increase the amount of air assets that have tumbled from the sky along with another 1600 Anti Tank weapons.


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## RichA (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I would also ask - how many of those who have said you would happily take in a Ukrainian family, or feel we should totally open our borders without checks in order to speed up their evacuation, have said the same about the ongoing situation in Ethiopia?
Have you offered a bed to Uyghar Muslims?
Have you reached out to those from Myanmar?
Should refugees from all this places also be offered immediate, unchecked resettlement here, temporary or otherwise?

What's happening in Ukraine is genocide and the whole world should step up to support them... but terrible things are happening elsewhere too. Have you spoken out so vehemently about those atrocities?
		
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Unlike the Ukrainians, they aren't literally queuing to cross the channel and we didn't guarantee their security when we signed the Budapest Agreement.


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## greenone (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Starstreak on its way which should increase the amount of air assets that have tumbled from the sky along with another 1600 Anti Tank weapons.
		
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The problem with manpads is they will push the Russians to medium altitude which means more indescrimainant bombing as the Russians don't really do precision guided bombs.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The beauty of the T80 is that it has a very good system of blowing itself up.
		
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Maybe that's why the directed so much initial effort on Kharkiv. Spares likely to be available from a manufacturer.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

greenone said:



			The problem with manpads is they will push the Russians to medium altitude which means more indescrimainant bombing as the Russians don't really do precision guided bombs.
		
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Personally think precision targeting went out of the window a week ago.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe that's why the directed so much initial effort on Kharkiv. Spares likely to be available from a manufacturer.

Click to expand...

Need more than spares, the turrets like to disengage from the Hull.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Personally think precision targeting went out of the window a week ago.
		
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While they were aiming at the door!


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Need more than spares, the turrets like to disengage from the Hull.
		
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Sounds like propoganda to me! Given that they don't plan on being up against more modern anti-tank weapons, it's still not something I'd like to meet heading my way!


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## phillarrow (Mar 9, 2022)

RichA said:



			Unlike the Ukrainians, they aren't literally queuing to cross the channel and we didn't guarantee their security when we signed the Budapest Agreement.
		
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So it's the geography and paperwork that matters, not the humanitarian crisis?! 🤷‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			So it's the geography and paperwork that matters, not the humanitarian crisis?! 🤷‍♂️
		
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On a small, already crowded island, UK has to be a little 'picky'! It's more appropriate for nearer nations to assist the likes of those fromthe conflicts you mentioned.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Sounds like propoganda to me! Given that they don't plan on being up against more modern anti-tank weapons, it's still not something I'd like to meet heading my way!
		
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No, as the Chechens discovered it’s notoriously crap….

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-russias-t-80-tank-one-worst-tanks-planet-earth-37982


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2022)

Sensible question for those that know more than me. Have we not been supplying Ukraine for a while, before this started? If so how would Russia know if the missile that shot a plane down came to the Ukraine before or during the Ukraine. They knew the Ukraine were armed before they invaded?


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			No, as the Chechens discovered it’s notoriously crap….

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-russias-t-80-tank-one-worst-tanks-planet-earth-37982

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I'll let you be 1st to attack then!
Having them run out of gas seems the best 'defense' to me!


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## RichA (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			So it's the geography and paperwork that matters, not the humanitarian crisis?! 🤷‍♂️
		
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I think you're being pointlessly argumentative.
Of course geography is relevant. 
How many Uyghur and Ethiopian evacuees are currently on our doorstep? They are 4500 and 3500 miles away on different continents while hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are spreading through Europe looking for safe haven as we bicker.
If I give change to a busker in London am I acting immorally if I don't send a bank transfer to one in Glasgow too?


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## phillarrow (Mar 9, 2022)

RichA said:



			I think you're being pointlessly argumentative.
Of course geography is relevant.
How many Uyghur and Ethiopian evacuees are currently on our doorstep? They are 4500 and 3500 miles away on different continents while hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are spreading through Europe looking for safe haven as we bicker.
If I give change to a busker in London am I acting immorally if I don't send a bank transfer to one in Glasgow too?
		
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I don't believe I am being pointlessly argumentative, but I'm not prepared to go back and forth any more to hammer my point home - there are enough others who do that! 

My view is that the double standards between the way people are viewing the crisis and Ukraine and the crises in other parts of the world has nothing to do with proximity. You feel differently about this. That's okay. We'll just agree to disagree. 👍


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## OntheteeGavin (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
		
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The training that the army has been doing, with the usa, has been going on for years. You don't suddenly know how and where  to use these weapons.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Sounds like propoganda to me! Given that they don't plan on being up against more modern anti-tank weapons, it's still not something I'd like to meet heading my way!
		
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As Ukraine has the same T80 as the Russian be it only around 800 I think they might have thought there was a fair assumption that they were going to comes across fairly modern weapons adding in the last 3 months showing British Troops training the Ukraine Army on some very modern anti tank kit.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2022)

OntheteeGavin said:



			The training that the army has been doing, with the usa, has been going on for years. You don't suddenly know how and where  to use these weapons.
		
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Agree on the where but most anti tank weapons are pretty easy to use however as a tank man I appreciate the courage of those who are going to use them.


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## RichA (Mar 9, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I don't believe I am being pointlessly argumentative, but I'm not prepared to go back and forth any more to hammer my point home - there are enough others who do that!

My view is that the double standards between the way people are viewing the crisis and Ukraine and the crises in other parts of the world has nothing to do with proximity. You feel differently about this. That's okay. We'll just agree to disagree. 👍
		
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While avoiding saying it explicitly, you're pretty much inferring racial bias on the part of "people" who want to help Ukrainians but didn't offer to help Uyghars or Ethiopians. That's a bit of a generalisation. It might be true for some but I know it's not true for all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Is that much difference from the Russian tanks that have been blown up by javelin missiles though? He's already got reason to go to war with the rest of Europe if he really wants to.
		
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In my mind or your mind it may not be...but I wouldn't want to assume that Putin would think likewise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
		
Click to expand...

I have not missed it.  Putin may choose to interpret Ukrainian use of a British Surface-to-air anti-aircraft missile to down his aircraft somewhat differently.  Losing a tank in ground warfare is one thing - losing an aircraft may be another.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with *a whole range and of DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets*.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
		
Click to expand...

Notwithstanding the high morals of 'our' side, this old but still relevant article makes a valid point. https://theconversation.com/purely-...such-thing-for-ukraine-or-anywhere-else-37582


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## williamalex1 (Mar 10, 2022)

Damn, after all that practice getting out and staying out of bunkers,


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## road2ruin (Mar 10, 2022)

Can’t help but feel we’re approaching the point of no return in this whole conflict. Putin’s invasion isn’t going to plan with his forces being seriously held up by the Ukrainian defence and he’s going to get increasingly desperate to put this to bed. Yesterday’s bombing of the maternity hospital in Mariupol proves that nothing is off limits and the next stage would be a movement away from conventional weapons such as the chemical type used in Syria. If that does happen I cannot see NATO being able to stand on the sidelines and they’ll have to send troops in IMO.


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## phillarrow (Mar 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			While avoiding saying it explicitly, you're pretty much inferring racial bias on the part of "people" who want to help Ukrainians but didn't offer to help Uyghars or Ethiopians. That's a bit of a generalisation. It might be true for some but I know it's not true for all.
		
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Kind of. I think there's racial bias in the media, and this filters through to the general population. 

I also do believe/know that there are some people who feel differently about refugees and immigrants depending upon their country of origin and colour of skin. 

What I did initially though was ask question, not make an accusation. The reason for asking it as a question is because I think it's healthy and positive to challenge our views. Not just each others but our own. For anyone who would instinctively feel that we should have fully open borders to Ukrainians, but wouldn't feel the same way if it was suggested about Ethiopians, Iraqis, Uyghur Muslims etc. I think it's important for them to explore any hidden biases that might underpin their views. Asking the question is really not the same as making an accusation.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Can’t help but feel we’re approaching the point of no return in this whole conflict. Putin’s invasion isn’t going to plan with his forces being seriously held up by the Ukrainian defence and he’s going to get increasingly desperate to put this to bed. Yesterday’s bombing of the maternity hospital in Mariupol proves that nothing is off limits and the next stage would be a movement away from conventional weapons such as the chemical type used in Syria. If that does happen I cannot see NATO being able to stand on the sidelines and they’ll have to send troops in IMO.
		
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Can't help feel you're right. Talk of the bombing of the hospital being a war crime and Russia saying it was an unused building so the usual round of accusation/denial. Haven't they already admitted thermobaric weapon use which is illegal. Clearly nothing is off limit and the only shred of hope is that Putin wouldn't want to plunge places like China into a conflict they don't want by dragging NATO into a full scale war.


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## RichA (Mar 10, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Kind of. I think there's racial bias in the media, and this filters through to the general population.

I also do believe/know that there are some people who feel differently about refugees and immigrants depending upon their country of origin and colour of skin.

What I did initially though was ask question, not make an accusation. The reason for asking it as a question is because I think it's healthy and positive to challenge our views. Not just each others but our own. For anyone who would instinctively feel that we should have fully open borders to Ukrainians, but wouldn't feel the same way if it was suggested about Ethiopians, Iraqis, Uyghur Muslims etc. I think it's important for them to explore any hidden biases that might underpin their views. Asking the question is really not the same as making an accusation.
		
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I didn't think you were being accusatory. I ask similar questions of myself. I become more aware of my own biases all the time. I don't like them. 
I think it's easier to help someone when they're metaphorically on your doorstep and you feel a moral compulsion to do something though. 
The media make it a difficult line to tread: only help people who look like yourself and your biased; help others and you've got saviour complex.
I can try and rationalise it by thinking that helping somebody is better than helping nobody.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have not missed it.  Putin may choose to interpret Ukrainian use of a British Surface-to-air anti-aircraft missile to down his aircraft somewhat differently.  Losing a tank in ground warfare is one thing - losing an aircraft may be another.
		
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But Ukraine has already been supplied with a huge amount of anti aircraft missles by NATO, that's how 80+ of Russian air assets have been downed, why are you worrying about a few more all of a sudden.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding the high morals of 'our' side, this old but still relevant article makes a valid point. https://theconversation.com/purely-...such-thing-for-ukraine-or-anywhere-else-37582

Click to expand...

OK, used in defence operations then. Is that better.


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			But Ukraine has already been supplied with a huge amount of anti aircraft missles by NATO, that's how *80+ of Russian air assets have been downed*, why are you worrying about a few more all of a sudden.
		
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Well, that appears to be the claim anyway! How many of those are real/verified? A couple of dozen? All of which is good news of course, but reminds me of the exaggreated claims that were an essential part of US's propoganda about Vietnam many years ago.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that appears to be the claim anyway! How many of those are real/verified? A couple of dozen? All of which is good news of course, but reminds me of the exaggreated claims that were an essential part of US's propoganda about Vietnam many years ago.
		
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If an Isis terrorists kills civilians in London with a Kalashnikov AK-47, does that make Russia responsible for his actions.


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If an Isis terrorists kills civilians in London with a Kalashnikov AK-47, does that make Russia responsible for his actions.
		
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Some would likely try to put that spin on it - as in 'Russian supplied weapons'!


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## Smiffy (Mar 10, 2022)

Well the one bonus if they let loose with the ICBM's is that a direct hit over Hastings would do millions of £££££'s worth of improvements.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that appears to be the claim anyway! How many of those are real/verified? A couple of dozen? All of which is good news of course, but reminds me of the exaggreated claims that were an essential part of US's propoganda about Vietnam many years ago.
		
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Claimed by our MOD not me.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Russia


Foxholer said:



			Some would likely try to put that spin on it - as in 'Russian supplied weapons'!
		
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 Rissia are not the main supplier of the klashnikov these days.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			But Ukraine has already been supplied with a huge amount of anti aircraft missles by NATO, that's how 80+ of Russian air assets have been downed, why are you worrying about a few more all of a sudden.
		
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Because things may not be going well for Putin and he is going to be looking for any new evidence to point out to Russians of an escalation and 'upping of the ante' by the 'west'.


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## road2ruin (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because things may not be going well for Putin and he is going to be looking for any new evidence to point out to Russians of an escalation and 'upping of the ante' by the 'west'.
		
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He doesn’t need that excuse, if he wants to press the button he will. 

He’s already lining up chemical weapons in response to apparent American activities in Ukraine.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

M


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because things may not be going well for Putin and he is going to be looking for any new evidence to point out to Russians of an escalation and 'upping of the ante' by the 'west'.
		
Click to expand...

My advice for what it's worth, worry about what you have control over, the rest is someone else's problem.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because things may not be going well for Putin and he is going to be looking for any new evidence to point out to Russians of an escalation and 'upping of the ante' by the 'west'.
		
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Why would he need new evidence, if he wanted an excuse to do something!?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			M


My advice for what it's worth, worry about what you have control over, the rest is someone else's problem.
		
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Wise words. Until we get dragged into a NATO involved conflict bringing the UK into the Russian line of fire then worrying seems a wasted effort. If we get involved directly then worry about no fuel, rationing and incoming but we're not there yet


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Claimed by our MOD not me.
		
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Got a reference? Here's one to the 'couple of dozen' verified one.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/07/russian-aircraft-losses-ukraine-unsustainable-fortnight/#:~:text=The true losses may be,including nine over the weekend.
Call me cynical, but 'our MOD' wouldn't seem to be in the best position to confirm numbers, but probably in a good pos to push propoganda!


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Got a reference? Here's one to the 'couple of dozen' verified one.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/07/russian-aircraft-losses-ukraine-unsustainable-fortnight/#:~:text=The true losses may be,including nine over the weekend.
Call me cynical, but 'our MOD' wouldn't seem to be in the best position to confirm numbers, but probably in a good pos to push propoganda!
		
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The reference was only the daily briefing on the BBC breakfast programme with the armed forces minister at around 0730 today. Take it how you wish.
With the amount of “real time“ sat int available I wouldn’t doubt it’s accuracy but in the free world you can make your own choices. 
Not sure if the telegraph is plumbed into the same sat int.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wise words. Until we get dragged into a NATO involved conflict bringing the UK into the Russian line of fire then worrying seems a wasted effort. If we get involved directly then worry about no fuel, rationing and incoming but we're not there yet
		
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I think it’s really sad that we have individuals worried more about their own comforts in life than what is going on in Ukraine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			M


My advice for what it's worth, worry about what you have control over, the rest is someone else's problem.
		
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OK - so we here should be worrying about and discussing the refugee crisis; our Government's response to it, and the Border Force handling of it rather than discussing some hypothetical arms race to Armageddon that only strikes fear in many and that could have a significant and detrimental impact for those with mental health concerns.

A background aside...my concerns are based around the fact that in a previous life I was, firstly and for many years, a missile guidance, control and navigation systems engineer so I actually know how these things work and what they are capable of because I worked on designing them; and secondly, I carried out defense market demand forecasting specialising in land-based air defense systems - and so I have a good idea of what the west and the Russians have and what all that stuff is capable of doing.  My knowledge is some years out of date but much of the kit I designed, modelled and 'investigated' is still in service.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - so we here should be worrying about and discussing the refugee crisis; our Government's response to it, and the Border Force handling of it rather than discussing some hypothetical arms race to Armageddon that only strikes fear in many and that could have a significant and detrimental impact for those with mental health concerns.
		
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Crack on then. Good luck with the outcome if you do. Another thinly veiled political point trying to be made


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## Swango1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - so we here should be worrying about and discussing the refugee crisis; our Government's response to it, and the Border Force handling of it rather than discussing some hypothetical arms race to Armageddon that only strikes fear in many and that could have a significant and detrimental impact for those with mental health concerns.
		
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If you are worried about your own mental health when potential outcomes of war against a nuclear nation with an unpredictable leader are discussed,  you could simply avoid this thread? The Wordle thread is likely to induce less stress


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The reference was only *the daily briefing on the BBC breakfast programme with the armed forces minister* at around 0730 today. Take it how you wish.
With the amount of “real time“ sat int available I wouldn’t doubt it’s accuracy but in the free world you can make your own choices.
Not sure if the telegraph is plumbed into the same sat int.
		
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So a politician! I can't verify the actual words, but spin (aka propaganda) is 2nd nature (if not 1st!) to that lot!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Crack on then. Good luck with the outcome if you do. Another thinly veiled political point trying to be made
		
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How the h*** can we discuss the refugee crisis and how the UK is responding to it - that being the one area we can individually and collectively really help the Ukrainians, without reference to the government's decisions.  They are the one and the same thing.  It's a nonsense to pretend otherwise.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So a politician! I can't verify the actual words, but spin (aka propaganda) is 2nd nature (if not 1st!) to that lot!
		
Click to expand...

Me or you cannot verify what the minister says is propaganda or not. There might be one or two people speaking the truth, who knows.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you are worried about your own mental health when potential outcomes of war against a nuclear nation with an unpredictable leader are discussed,  you could simply avoid this thread? The Wordle thread is likely to induce less stress 

Click to expand...

I am not worried about my own mental health in the slightest, what made you think I was.  On many things some of us think of others more than just ourselves.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How the h*** can we discuss the refugee crisis and how the UK is responding to it - that being the one area we can individually and collectively really help the Ukrainians, without reference to the government's decisions.  They are the one and the same thing.  It's a nonsense to pretend otherwise.
		
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Because the situation is bad enough without the thread disintegrating into a political meltdown. You know exactly what you're doing with your wording and sly innuendo about the government and their handling of things to date.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How the h*** can we discuss the refugee crisis and how the UK is responding to it - that being the one area we can individually and collectively really help the Ukrainians, without reference to the government's decisions.  They are the one and the same thing.  It's a nonsense to pretend otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

Personally think our response to refugees has been poor but nor can I see a practical way of sorting out the mess when we run a policy that requires a background check on those entering the country.
Having been castigated by the British public in the past for allowing know nasties in they are buggered which ever way they go.

Perhaps @SwingsitlikeHogan has the ideal solution.


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because the situation is bad enough without the thread disintegrating into a political meltdown...
		
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Then either Report the post or stay out of it! It's YOU that is making it (out to be) political!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How the h*** can we discuss the refugee crisis and how the UK is responding to it - that being the one area we can individually and collectively really help the Ukrainians, without reference to the government's decisions.  They are the one and the same thing.  It's a nonsense to pretend otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

It’s difficult, if not impossible, we get this, but we have to operate and post with the rules GM lay down. 
No politics please


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## Crazyface (Mar 10, 2022)

What I cannot for the life of me understand is, why do the BBC fly reporter in to war zones? And, if the BBC have reporters there, where are other TV channels reporters?


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			What I cannot for the life of me understand is,* why do the BBC fly reporter in to war zones? *And, if the BBC have reporters there, where are other TV channels reporters?
		
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THey've been doing it for decades! Remember all the reports from Middle East conflicts for example!
One of the recognised 'independent and unbiased' news agencies for such events.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not worried about my own mental health in the slightest, what made you think I was.  On many things some of us think of others more than just ourselves.
		
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Who are all these people who are complaining about mental health that you are defending? It doesn't matter if it is your mental health, or others. If topics in this thread are stressing you out, don't open the thread. It is entitled with "WW3" in the title, that should be a hint that the chat will not be about cute puppies. I'm not having a go, I'm simply saying that if there is a thread about war, it isn't a light subject sadly.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who are all these people who are complaining about mental health that you are defending? It doesn't matter if it is your mental health, or others. If topics in this thread are stressing you out, don't open the thread. It is entitled with "WW3" in the title, that should be a hint that the chat will not be about cute puppies. I'm not having a go, I'm simply saying that if there is a thread about war, it isn't a light subject sadly.
		
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There’s a reason that military personnel survive on black humour.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			THey've been doing it for decades! Remember all the reports from Middle East conflicts for example!
One of the recognised 'independent and unbiased' news agencies for such events.
		
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Nobody wanted Kate Aidie turning up in Kuwait, sure sign to reach for your helmet.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			What I cannot for the life of me understand is, why do the BBC fly reporter in to war zones? And, if the BBC have reporters there, where are other TV channels reporters?
		
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Sky reporters are in Ukraine, and I know GMB had reporters in Ukraine also.

I did laugh, as reporters have had to follow strict Covid guidelines for last 2 years, then as soon as we start to get out of that, off they go to a war zone. Health and Safety gone mad.

However, the reason they go is so they can experience what things are really like on the ground, rather than rely purely on 3rd parties. It helps verify a lot of what they report, hopefully giving us generally more reliable news.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sky reporters are in Ukraine, and I know GMB had reporters in Ukraine also.

I did laugh, as reporters have had to follow strict Covid guidelines for last 2 years, then as soon as we start to get out of that, off they go to a war zone. Health and Safety gone mad.

However, the reason they go is so they can experience what things are really like on the ground, rather than rely purely on 3rd parties. It helps verify a lot of what they report, hopefully giving us generally more reliable news.
		
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Most reporters are acting on behalf of several media outlets, but I do laugh when I see so many driving around a war zone.


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody wanted Kate Aidie turning up in Kuwait, sure sign to reach for your helmet.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

Not that one


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s difficult, if not impossible, we get this, but we have to operate and post with the rules GM lay down.
No politics please
		
Click to expand...

This is not politics it is government policy *on our behalf *in a very challenging context.  But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.  And I won't say how well I think the public's wishes are being reflected by government policy on refugees.

The politics of the matter are mostly it seems around *why *the government is doing what it is doing, and less so around *what *it is doing.  And so I will not discuss the _why _of it, though I suggest that we all know why, but I can surely discuss the _what _as that is what impacts each and every one of us in our ability to help and support Ukrainian refugees.

It is a rather sad joke that we have to dance on the head of a pin almost pretending that what is happening in respect of the UK response to the refugee crisis is somehow happening of it's own accord, and not as the result of decisions being made *on behalf of each and every one of us. * But I guess that that suits some.

Anyway - so we go back to discussing hypothetical military and conflict matters upon which we have no influence, and that will only impact us through government policy...though somehow we can discuss that.   Carry on.


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Not that one 

Click to expand...

Nope. Made me laugh and almost spill my beer! A  would probably have clarified.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who are all these people who are complaining about mental health that you are defending? It doesn't matter if it is your mental health, or others. If topics in this thread are stressing you out, don't open the thread. It is entitled with "WW3" in the title, that should be a hint that the chat will not be about *cute puppies*. I'm not having a go, I'm simply saying that if there is a thread about war, it isn't a light subject sadly.
		
Click to expand...

I misread your post and Googled "Nice puppies" instead of cute puppies. There were images there that would have seen me receive a severe Fraggering but I think this one is ok to post.....


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*This is not politics it is government policy on our behalf 
So that’s politics then*.
in a very challenging context.  *But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.* 
*But you just did*
.
		
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Look I’m going to say this once
This is a golf forum, nothing that is said on here is going to change anything anywhere. 
Your constant little digs, like those above are becoming tiresome and if repeated will result in consequences.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is not politics it is government policy *on our behalf *in a very challenging context.  But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.  And I won't say how well I think the public's wishes are being reflected by government policy on refugees.

The politics of the matter are mostly it seems around *why *the government is doing what it is doing, and less so around *what *it is doing.  And so I will not discuss the _why _of it, though I suggest that we all know why, but I can surely discuss the _what _as that is what impacts each and every one of us in our ability to help and support Ukrainian refugees.

It is a rather sad joke that we have to dance on the head of a pin almost pretending that what is happening in respect of the UK response to the refugee crisis is somehow happening of it's own accord, and not as the result of decisions being made *on behalf of each and every one of us. * But I guess that that suits some.

Anyway - so we go back to discussing hypothetical military and conflict matters upon which we have no influence, and that will only impact us through government policy...though somehow we can discuss that.   Carry on.
		
Click to expand...

I laughed when I started to read this. It is like me saying "This is not football, it is about me talking about a group of 11 men facing another group of 11 men kicking a little white ball and trying to put it into a rectangular frame with a net on one side of a big grassy area, while stopping the other group of men putting it into a similar frame on the opposite end."


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## backwoodsman (Mar 11, 2022)

Ah well, I see we're back to bickering amongst ourselves again...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody wanted Kate Aidie turning up in Kuwait, sure sign to reach for your helmet.
		
Click to expand...

Orla Guerin is the modern version. Run quickly if Orla turns up nearby. I swear a black cloud follows her around the world.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Orla Guerin is the modern version. Run quickly if Orla turns up nearby. I swear a black cloud follows her around the world.
		
Click to expand...

We call her the Grim Reaper...


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## GreiginFife (Mar 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is not politics it is government policy *on our behalf *in a very challenging context.  But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.  And I won't say how well I think the public's wishes are being reflected by government policy on refugees.

The politics of the matter are mostly it seems around *why *the government is doing what it is doing, and less so around *what *it is doing.  And so I will not discuss the _why _of it, though I suggest that we all know why, but I can surely discuss the _what _as that is what impacts each and every one of us in our ability to help and support Ukrainian refugees.

It is a rather sad joke that we have to dance on the head of a pin almost pretending that what is happening in respect of the UK response to the refugee crisis is somehow happening of it's own accord, and not as the result of decisions being made *on behalf of each and every one of us. * But I guess that that suits some.

Anyway - so we go back to discussing hypothetical military and conflict matters upon which we have no influence, and that will only impact us through government policy...though somehow we can discuss that.   Carry on.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve come to the conclusion that you’d be rubbish at Fight Club…


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is not politics it is government policy *on our behalf *in a very challenging context.  But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.  And I won't say how well I think the public's wishes are being reflected by government policy on refugees.

The politics of the matter are mostly it seems around *why *the government is doing what it is doing, and less so around *what *it is doing.  And so I will not discuss the _why _of it, though I suggest that we all know why, but I can surely discuss the _what _as that is what impacts each and every one of us in our ability to help and support Ukrainian refugees.

It is a rather sad joke that we have to dance on the head of a pin almost pretending that what is happening in respect of the UK response to the refugee crisis is somehow happening of it's own accord, and not as the result of decisions being made *on behalf of each and every one of us. * But I guess that that suits some.

Anyway - so we go back to discussing hypothetical military and conflict matters upon which we have no influence, and that will only impact us through government policy...though somehow we can discuss that.   Carry on.
		
Click to expand...

Still waiting for your ideas


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			THey've been doing it for decades! Remember all the reports from Middle East conflicts for example!
		
Click to expand...

A brilliant answer if the question had been ''how long have the BBC been flying reporters in to war zones?''


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Ah well, I see we're back to bickering amongst ourselves again...
		
Click to expand...

You are wrong!


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## PNWokingham (Mar 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is not politics it is government policy *on our behalf *in a very challenging context.  But if it is what is required and that I cannot say that I am happy with the way the government has responded militarily and on aid so far then I won't.  And I won't say how well I think the public's wishes are being reflected by government policy on refugees.

The politics of the matter are mostly it seems around *why *the government is doing what it is doing, and less so around *what *it is doing.  And so I will not discuss the _why _of it, though I suggest that we all know why, but I can surely discuss the _what _as that is what impacts each and every one of us in our ability to help and support Ukrainian refugees.

It is a rather sad joke that we have to dance on the head of a pin almost pretending that what is happening in respect of the UK response to the refugee crisis is somehow happening of it's own accord, and not as the result of decisions being made *on behalf of each and every one of us. * But I guess that that suits some.

Anyway - so we go back to discussing hypothetical military and conflict matters upon which we have no influence, and that will only impact us through government policy...though somehow we can discuss that.   Carry on.
		
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there is complete agreement that our response to migrants has been shocking and I believe it will change for the better. But, without getting political, what do you think we should be doing different militarily?


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			A brilliant answer if the question had been ''how long have the BBC been flying reporters in to war zones?''
		
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Thanks.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Orla Guerin is the modern version. Run quickly if Orla turns up nearby. I swear a black cloud follows her around the world.
		
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 I hear she has been lined up for the next forum meet .....


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## Dando (Mar 11, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I hear she has been lined up for the next forum meet .....
		
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why, is Fish attending?


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Orla Guerin is the modern version. Run quickly if Orla turns up nearby. I swear a black cloud follows her around the world.
		
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Incredibly brave folk, both/all of them! Putting their own lives in danger in order to report the facts!
BBC may occasionally be criticised for its funding, but I very much doubt anyone would question the quality or integrity in its overseas, espcially crisis, reporting.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Incredibly brave folk, both/all of them! Putting their own lives in danger in order to report the facts!
		
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Not part of the so called propaganda machine then,  good to know.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Not part of the so called propaganda machine then,  good to know.
		
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Not for me! At least at this stage of the conflict. Beeb's overseas reporters are islands of independence in that regard. Though are often, understandably, unable to 'present both sides' of some/many situations in conflict zones.
The 'propagandists' tend to be a long way from actual conflict zones. Mind you, judicious suppression or editing of their reports _could_ result in distortion, but I don't believe the conflict has reached that stage yet - and hope it never does! 
And FWIW, note my edit of my original post.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

And - India "accidentally " fires a missile into Pakistan after "malfunction".
Life gets more interesting by the day.


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## RichA (Mar 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not for me! At least at this stage of the conflict. Beeb's overseas reporters are islands of independence in that regard. Though are often, understandably, unable to 'present both sides' of some/many situations in conflict zones.
The 'propagandists' tend to be a long way from actual conflict zones. Mind you, judicious suppression or editing of their reports _could_ result in distortion, but I don't believe the conflict has reached that stage yet - and hope it never does!
And FWIW, note my edit of my original post.
		
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I kind of agree with Old Skier. I'm not independent - I support the Ukrainians. Some of the coverage, if viewed by a Russian, would appear like a propaganda video against them, which plays into their hands.
Stick to the facts.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

RichA said:



			I kind of agree with Old Skier. I'm not independent - I support the Ukrainians. Some of the coverage, if viewed by a Russian, would appear like a propaganda video against them, which plays into their hands.
Stick to the facts.
		
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They also get to many "experts" and take their "opinions " as fact to easily. 
IMO 24 hr news broadcasting has added to too many opinions.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

RichA said:



			I kind of agree with Old Skier. I'm not independent - I support the Ukrainians. Some of the coverage, if viewed by a Russian, would appear like a propaganda video against them, which plays into their hands.
Stick to the facts.
		
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Pretty much my stance too. Though I'm perhaps a tad more cynical about the 'independence' of, at least some, ex-forces attitudes.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Pretty much my stance too. Though I'm perhaps a tad more cynical about the 'independence' of, at least some, ex-forces attitudes.
		
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Me to as we are know for our cynical attitude.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			They also get to many "experts" and take their "opinions " as fact to easily.
IMO 24 hr news broadcasting has added to too many opinions.
		
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I'd still sooner hear sit-reps from an 'independent' source close to the action than a carefully constructed press-release from a, quite reasonably, biased one in 'forces HQ' trying to 'manage events/news'! I'm happy to hear multiple opinions, backed up by facts, as opposed to a single opinion presented as fact. And, generally, the closer to the actual events the better.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'd still sooner hear sit-reps from an 'independent' source close to the action than a carefully constructed press-release from a, quite reasonably, biased one in 'forces HQ' trying to 'manage events/news'! I'm happy to hear multiple opinions, backed up by facts, as opposed to a single opinion presented as fact. And, generally, the closer to the actual events the better.
		
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Yes, but flying back and forth for Mastermind is a disgraceful waste of public money


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## RichA (Mar 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Yes, but flying back and forth for Mastermind is a disgraceful waste of public money 

Click to expand...

He has been immense. He's the calmest man on the planet.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

RichA said:



			He has been immense. He's the calmest man on the planet.
		
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Still don't understand why it needed three top notch reporters to spend their time in the same location sleeping in an underground car park.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 11, 2022)

RichA said:



			He has been immense. He's the calmest man on the planet.
		
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Orla Guerin aside, Quentin Sommerville has been fairly calm and he's "in aboot it" so to speak. Cliveyboy is on the fringes. Quentin was calmly wandering in amongst dead Russians in a petrol station last night!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2022)

What I find astonishing about the Russian military might is, apparently Putin has 15,000 “Volunteers” coming over from Syria to “ help with military 
Manoeuvres”.  Is the Russian army really that rubbish. Has Putin and his cronies underestimated how big a job this “ Military manoeuvres “  was


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			What I find astonishing about the Russian military might is, apparently Putin has 15,000 “Volunteers” coming over from Syria to “ help with military
Manoeuvres”.  Is the Russian army really that rubbish. Has Putin and his cronies underestimated how big a job this “ Military manoeuvres “  was
		
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He'd rather 15,000 Syrians popped their clogs than 15,000 Ruskies,  there are also unconfirmed reports of a covert air attack on Belarusian troops to get more of them involved.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			He'd rather 15,000 Syrians popped their clogs than 15,000 Ruskies,  there are also unconfirmed reports of a covert air attack on Belarusian troops to get more of them involved.
		
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😖


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2022)

Disappointing to see 16000 Syrian mercenaries joining the fight. They will no doubt be posted to these towns still standing firm and use their guerilla tactical nous to break down Ukaranian resistance before the Russian onslaught. Putin will then claim it was a Russian victory


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## road2ruin (Mar 11, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Disappointing to see 16000 Syrian mercenaries joining the fight. They will no doubt be posted to these towns still standing firm and use their guerilla tactical nous to break down Ukaranian resistance before the Russian onslaught. Putin will then claim it was a Russian victory
		
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On the flip side you’d assume that there are a fair few from around Europe (and further afield) who will have joined the Ukrainian ranks. Hopefully even the playing field a little.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			On the flip side you’d assume that there are a fair few from around Europe (and further afield) who will have joined the Ukrainian ranks. Hopefully even the playing field a little.
		
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Though typical Putin and quite predictably, as soon as it was evident that ex-military from UK and other countries were going to Ukraine to fight he would disingenuously twist that into mercenaries from UK and European countries going to Ukraine to kill Russian 'freedom fighters' and use that as justification for such as engaging his own mercenaries.  Because that's what he does and will continue to do, and so we need to be very clear whether or not we want UK citizens to go to Ukraine to 'fight'.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 12, 2022)

From what I've heard there are plenty of ex-military and non ex-military citizens from many countries heading out to join the fight. There's some weird stuff going on though as they are being made to sign a contract which may or may not be open-ended and may or may not be on a payment basis. The may or may not be element is because it's information from my nephew who's out there and he is probably only telling us what we want to hear. They were told about the contract and that it was dated "until the end of martial law in Ukraine". Also that they'd be sent out to the East and basically be "cannon fodder and a suicide mission". 

So he refused to sign and was planning some humanitarian work on the Polish border. This has now become a contract signed which they can get out of at any time and him joining up with an alleged group of ex special foces joining up with the Ukranian special forces. I think he's somewhere South as it's on the coast. I have the horrible feeling the majority are basically mercenaries or living out their dreams as "SF" soldiers which hadn't previously materialised.

Having said that my judgement is clouded somewhat by the whats app group he set up which included many of his ex squaddie mates. The "banter" on there was anything but funny imho. Eventually my sister gave them a proper telling off and it disbanded - which is probably a good thing!


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2022)




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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2022)

Interesting read:

https://uscnpm.org/2022/03/12/hu-wei-russia-ukraine-war-china-choice/


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting read:

https://uscnpm.org/2022/03/12/hu-wei-russia-ukraine-war-china-choice/

Click to expand...

That is one of the longest posts I have read on this site. I hazard a guess that 99% of people that comment of this subject will not bother to read it.
 If they want to be educated. They should.  It is an excellent read. 
Well found and posted OS


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## backwoodsman (Mar 13, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting read:

https://uscnpm.org/2022/03/12/hu-wei-russia-ukraine-war-china-choice/

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Certainly an interesting read. But how accurately representative it is of central Chinese political thinking is anyone's guess?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Certainly an interesting read. But how accurately representative it is of central Chinese political thinking is anyone's guess?
		
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I think the beauty ( if that’s the term) is it gives out so many scenarios. Some of which are to horrendous to contemplate. Suffice to say, Putin has screwed up big style re the future of Russia and its place on the international scene. He has helped to galvanise countries in a Way that was previously un thought of.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Certainly an interesting read. But how accurately representative it is of central Chinese political thinking is anyone's guess?
		
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Good point, put as he is able to write these articles and live in China I presume he’s not without some influence.


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## Beedee (Mar 13, 2022)

The Times is reporting that the head of foreign intelligence in the FSB has been placed under house arrest.  Putin is complaining that he was given incorrect intelligence about how easy things would be. 

I wonder if the FSB actually thought that it would be easy.  Or if they didn't believe it, but just told Putin what he wanted to hear.  Or if they're trying to tell him the truth now, and Putin doesn't like it.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2022)

Beedee said:



			The Times is reporting that the head of foreign intelligence in the FSB has been placed under house arrest.  Putin is complaining that he was given incorrect intelligence about how easy things would be.

I wonder if the FSB actually thought that it would be easy.  Or if they didn't believe it, but just told Putin what he wanted to hear.  Or if they're trying to tell him the truth now, and Putin doesn't like it.
		
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Nice to know that The Times has access to the FSB and an insite into what Putins saying.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 14, 2022)

Nephew messaged to say that after a week without it he managed to find some coffee. Filter though so he's used his sock and reckons it tastes pretty good. At least he didn't use his pants. 

He's in Kyiv - fortunately left the base near the border that was shelled a few days ago.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2022)

From Steve Rosenberg 
Absolutely astonishing. During Russian Channel 1’s evening news broadcast, a woman ran onto the set with a sign: “No war…Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.”


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## chellie (Mar 14, 2022)

Wow, a brave woman


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503446891014537222


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2022)

And this is the brave lady


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## chellie (Mar 14, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503457457393352706


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2022)

Suicidal!


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## backwoodsman (Mar 15, 2022)

A very brave lady. If I heard the BBC news correctly, she's now "helping the police with their enquiries" (to coin a phrase) - which means I rather fear for her .


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			A very brave lady. If I heard the BBC news correctly, she's now "helping the police with their enquiries" (to coin a phrase) - which means I rather fear for her .
		
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It says here "believed to be in police custody" which doesn't bode well given their reputation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60744605


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## AmandaJR (Mar 15, 2022)

So brave - hope she survives and is seen again...clearly prepared to suffer for the cause.


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## road2ruin (Mar 15, 2022)

chellie said:



			Wow, a brave woman


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503446891014537222

Click to expand...

Very brave, she will have known better than most the implications of such a move and yet still went through with it. I'd imagine she'll be put on trial with no chance of winning, will be paraded around as an enemy of Russia and will spend a fair few years in the gulag.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Very brave, she will have known better than most the implications of such a move and yet still went through with it. I'd imagine she'll be put on trial with no chance of winning, *will be paraded around as an enemy of Russia* and will spend a fair few years in the gulag.
		
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Re the bold bit...That is not the 'Russian way'. There will be little, if any, publicity, but will simply be 'disposed of in the usual way'.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...That is not the 'Russian way'. There will be little, if any, publicity, but will simply be 'disposed of in the usual way'.
		
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Novachok face wipe.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 15, 2022)

Nothng like a bit of OTT nonsense.. she'll probably get fined a few hundred quid.


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## greenone (Mar 15, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Nothng like a bit of OTT nonsense.. she'll probably get fined a few hundred quid.
		
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More like upto 15 years with the law passed in Russia last week.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 15, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Nothng like a bit of OTT nonsense.. she'll probably get fined a few hundred quid.
		
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Suppose, like anything, it depends on what she is charged with. If it's sedition then I doubt it would be so lenient. If it's "disrespect" under his revised laws set out a few years back then a fine or possibly up to 15 days in jail.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 15, 2022)

greenone said:



			More like upto 15 years with the law passed in Russia last week.
		
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Like I said, OTT.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Nothng like a bit of OTT nonsense.. she'll probably get fined a few hundred quid.
		
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Might want to rethink that https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...va-following-on-air-anti-war-protest-12566625


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Might want to rethink that https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...va-following-on-air-anti-war-protest-12566625

Click to expand...

I assumed Oneandonly was being ironic.  Brave lady will probably never be seen again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Suppose, like anything, it depends on what she is charged with. If it's sedition then I doubt it would be so lenient. If it's "disrespect" under his revised laws set out a few years back then a fine or possibly up to 15 days in jail.
		
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Charged with vandalism…?


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## road2ruin (Mar 15, 2022)

Hopefully a bit of positive news for that journalist....

_The Russian state TV employee who staged an anti-war protest on a live news programme last night is currently on trial at Moscow's Ostankino Court.

Marina Ovsyannikova is being charged with "organising an unauthorised public event," an administrative charge which could result in a fine of up to 30,000 roubles (£200), community service or up to 10 days in jail.

It suggests that the journalist is not being charged under Moscow's new law on "spreading false information about Russia's armed forces".

Earlier we reported that Ovsyannikova's lawyers were unable to locate her, but a photo circulating on social media appears to show her in court with a lawyer._


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Hopefully a bit of positive news for that journalist....

_The Russian state TV employee who staged an anti-war protest on a live news programme last night is currently on trial at Moscow's Ostankino Court.

Marina Ovsyannikova is being charged with "organising an unauthorised public event," an administrative charge which could result in a fine of up to 30,000 roubles (£200), community service or up to 10 days in jail.

It suggests that the journalist is not being charged under Moscow's new law on "spreading false information about Russia's armed forces".

Earlier we reported that Ovsyannikova's lawyers were unable to locate her, but a photo circulating on social media appears to show her in court with a lawyer._

Click to expand...

A regime that could use nerve agents on a defector in Salisbury are capable of anything regarding this brave Woman.  I fear for her life.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			So brave - hope she survives and is seen again...clearly prepared to suffer for the cause.
		
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@AmandaJR from information I have receive today, please ensure that your nephew is no longer using his phone and has destroyed the SIM card. He will need a completely clean phone and local SIM cards.
Russian comms units are able to trace UK,s SIM cards and use them for target locations.

Turning off the phone isn’t enough.


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## Smiffy (Mar 15, 2022)

Another news reporter killed
🥺🥺🥺


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## AmandaJR (Mar 15, 2022)

Old Skier said:



@AmandaJR from information I have receive today, please ensure that your nephew is no longer using his phone and has destroyed the SIM card. He will need a completely clean phone and local SIM cards.
Russian comms units are able to trace UK,s SIM cards and use them for target locations.

Turning off the phone isn’t enough.
		
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Thanks. I'll try and get the message to him. He said yesterday they were off on a 3 day mission so not sure how much he'd be able to contact. The abandoned hotel they'd been in had been "compromised" so that may be why.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 15, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Might want to rethink that https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...va-following-on-air-anti-war-protest-12566625

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Why ? Do you have information to the contrary? Besides some scaremongering from sky TV.


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2022)

RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin has been humiliated by North Korea's Kim Jong-un who said, "you are too insane for us," according to one source.

Wasn’t sure if this should be in the laughter thread or not


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## Newtonuti (Mar 15, 2022)

Word is that Ukraine have mobilised all of it's reserves, some 200,000 military veterans.

Also, I swear to the almighty that there's so many NLAWS and Javelin's in Ukraine now, that there's actually more anti-armour weapons then there is Ruski armour.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

Great respect for the Ukrainian emergency services, I'm inspired by the film of their Firefighters in action in such alarming circumstances.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

Looks like India has been sniveling to Russia offering to take their oil and gas at discount rates.  Surely another country that needs a shot across it's bows to warn them of the possible trade consequences their actions could bring.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Looks like India has been sniveling to Russia offering to take their oil and gas at discount rates.  Surely another country that *needs a shot across it's bows to warn them of the possible trade consequences* their actions could bring.
		
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Not the way to handle it imo! Especially while trying to encourage post-Brexit trade deals.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not the way to handle it imo! Especially while trying to encourage post-Brexit trade deals.
		
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With the trade deficit we have I don't see the problem.  Slightly less crap quality goods coming into the country isn't exactly a major concern.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			With the trade deficit we have I don't see the problem.  Slightly less crap quality goods coming into the country isn't exactly a major concern.
		
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Which narrow-mindedly ignores the potential for UK exports to over 1Bn potential customers!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Which narrow-mindedly ignores the potential for UK exports to over 1Bn potential customers!
		
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Just one of the issues we will face on future trade and trade deals with the BRIC nations as a result of the Ukraine conflict.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just one of the issues we will face on future trade and trade deals with the *BRIC nations* as a result of the Ukraine conflict.
		
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Purely coincidence.


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## IanM (Mar 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Which narrow-mindedly ignores the potential for UK exports to over 1Bn potential customers!
		
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70% of whom live on under $2 a day.  

 Socio Economic issues in India are very complex, some odd paradoxes,  most of which are currently of Zero concern to Ukrainian Citizens being bombed by a nutter.


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## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2022)

I see Germany are now warning against the use of Kaspersky antivirus.  
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60738208?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
I've never used it myself, but may be something worth considering for those who do.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Which narrow-mindedly ignores the potential for UK exports to over 1Bn potential customers!
		
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Nothing narrow minded about a £4.3 billion trade deficit after the UK exporting £7.1 billion.   India are the UKs 21 st biggest trade partner.  I would suggest if they knew what side their bread was buttered they would be wary of looking to take advantage of the Ukraine situation.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing narrow minded about a £4.3 billion trade deficit after the UK exporting £7.1 billion.   India are the UKs 21 st biggest trade partner.  I would suggest if they knew what side their bread was buttered they would be wary of looking to take advantage of the Ukraine situation.
		
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Oh dear. We're back in the 18th Century!, when England was the biggest bully ruled the waves.
Anyway, back to _direct_ consequences of Russian aggression...


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2022)

Suspect that I am going to take a massive amount of flack for this but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Suspect that I am going to take a massive amount of flack for this but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.
		
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I share your concerns. However it seems there is a desire to make progress with talks and a suggestion of an Austrian type solution may be a way forward that would appease all sides. It would need Ukraine to give up their Nato ambition so may still be a stumbling block https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...enskyy-peace-talks-nato-live-updates-12541713


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I share your concerns. However it seems there is a desire to make progress with talks and a suggestion of an Austrian type solution may be a way forward that would appease all sides. It would need Ukraine to give up their Nato ambition so may still be a stumbling block https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...enskyy-peace-talks-nato-live-updates-12541713

Click to expand...

If you look at the wider reporting you will see that the Preseident has already rejected the thought of any Austrian or Swedish model of neutrality.


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I share your concerns. However it seems there is a desire to make progress with talks and a suggestion of an Austrian type solution may be a way forward that would appease all sides. It would need Ukraine to give up their Nato ambition so may still be a stumbling block https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...enskyy-peace-talks-nato-live-updates-12541713

Click to expand...

But also that Ukriane have admitted that NATO Membership is not going to happen.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Suspect that I am going to take a massive amount of flack for this but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.
		
Click to expand...

I think the Ukrainian PM is being clever, by asking NATO to get involved, which they absolutely will not through fear of escalating things to Armageddon levels. Later when negotiating with the Russians he can easily say Ukraine will not join NATO as they are not fit for purpose.

What makes me uncomfortable is how it reminds me too much of when we invaded Iraq on false pretences just to get a regime change.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Oh dear. We're back in the 18th Century!, when England was the biggest bully ruled the waves.
Anyway, back to _direct_ consequences of Russian aggression...
		
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What absolute Twaddle of the first order.    Hahaha 🤣🤣🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Suspect that I am going to take a massive amount of flack for this but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.
		
Click to expand...

Some, maybe also I, might say that your thoughts are akin to thinking that the West should turn the other cheek in the face of this aggression from Russia and terrible hurt to Ukraine and it’s people.

It’s very, very difficult.  But I am struggling to see how anyone gains anything from an escalated conflict with Russia facing off against NATO. Indeed the possible conflagration that could result should, in truth, rule out completely consideration of military (and other) actions that could initiate such a conflict.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



*Suspect that I am goisomng to take a massive amount of flack for this* but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.
		
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Absolutely zero flack from me! In fact, I have the same worries. Nato, as an organisation, has to stay out of it. I can see benefits for Ukraine joining the EU, though there may be barriers wrt defence arrangements that prevent that also. But all that has to wait until Putin recognises Ukraine's sovereignty, perhaps with some concession by Ukraine re Crimea - and maybe a little more.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2022)

I agree that NATO shouldn't make military advances outside it's member states but I'm in favour of it meeting Putin's threats with counters that make it clear to Russia that any military advance into a member country will be met with whatever action is necessary to stop it.   Running scared from Russia would be a mistake.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 16, 2022)

Son won't be going for the moment at least, as hid regiment is still attached to the Falklands, so they won't be deployed until the endof their 'tour' in case the Argies decide its a good time for another pop.



SocketRocket said:



			I agree that NATO shouldn't make military advances outside it's member states but I'm in favour of it meeting Putin's threats with counters that make it clear to Russia that any military advance into a member country will be met with whatever action is necessary to stop it.   Running scared from Russia would be a mistake.
		
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His words to me after being briefed last week were if a Russian puts so much as a toenail on NATo soil the  will hit the fan. My guess would be Putin knows this, and will poke and prod as much as he can without actually crossing that line.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 17, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Suspect that I am going to take a massive amount of flack for this but I am finding myself in an odd frame of mind at the moment. I am in total condemnation of what Russia is doing, it is abhorrent, but am also becoming concerned for the calls from Ukraine to take actions that will signal the start of a third world war. The world is giving money, supplies and weapons to help out but this is being countered by calls that we are not doing enough, that NATO planes should be in direct conflict wiht the Russians, today that the American people should be demanding that their country enter millitarily. I cannot even begin to undestand how this is for a nation and the horrors that it entails but I cannot see that the answer will ever be to potentially spread the conflict globally, to enter a fight that only ends when either Russia or Europe, or both, are bombed into the ground. Ukraine has garnered a huge amount of global support and I hope that this has not led to an overconfidence and a hard nosed position in any talks based on a false assumption that the military might of the rest of the world will be coming to help if Russia does not retreat.
		
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I understand the noises coming out of Ukraine, even if they know and understand why other countries will not directly enter conflict with Russia.

If the UK were in their shoes, and Russia / China decided to invade our country, it would be incredibly morale boosting if the rest of the world, with powerful militaries and strong economies voiced their support to us, and provided us with support to fight against the invaders. However, as we watched some of our cities being blown to the ground, thousands of our citizens being blown up and shot, then I would suspect we would be begging for USA and the rest of Europe to help us more. We'd be asking them to help us defend our skies. We'd absolutely love it if the American's sent troops and their air force into the UK to help. Initially there may be more acceptance from us that we do not want to escalate things due to potential nuclear attacks. However, as more and more cities are destroyed and people killed, whilst millions flee the country or starve in their cities, then I don't think we'd be concerned about WW3, we would already be at war anyway.


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## chellie (Mar 17, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504426844199669762


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## tugglesf239 (Mar 17, 2022)

chellie said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504426844199669762

Click to expand...

Arnold is truly a great man. A great, great man who has achieved unimaginable things in his life. 

I tell you one thing. The difference between that oration and those currently installed in the higher echelons of US office was stark and also Utterly disheartening.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2022)

Defence secretary confirmed yestrday Skysabre is being sent to Poland to protect the border, son has been put on 48hr notice to ship out


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## Dando (Mar 18, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Defence secretary confirmed yestrday Skysabre is being sent to Poland to protect the border, son has been put on 48hr notice to ship out

Click to expand...

oh bloody hell mate. Everything crossed that he returns safely


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Defence secretary confirmed yestrday Skysabre is being sent to Poland to protect the border, son has been put on 48hr notice to ship out

Click to expand...

Most probably in air defence of NATO in Poland if the unit is deploying.
Russian drones have already crash landed in Poland.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2022)

Personally think it has been a big mistake banning RT from the screens.
It appears that we arnt able to distinguish fact from fiction.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2022)

Dando said:



			oh bloody hell mate. Everything crossed that he returns safely
		
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Thanks mate



Old Skier said:



			Most probably in air defence of NATO in Poland if the unit is deploying.
Russian drones have already crash landed in Poland.
		
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Thats exactly what it is, bit of a show of strength to say to Putin 'thats close enough'. My worry is that if a russian jet pushes the border a bit far, or a missile strays into Poland the whole thing will go off


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2022)

Dando said:



			oh bloody hell mate. Everything crossed that he returns safely
		
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What he said.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2022)

Put-in on the Ritz


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2022)

Based on the fact that the BBC live feed on Ukraine has just turned into rusian language and pictures, I am guessing a cyber attack may be in progress.


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## chellie (Mar 19, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60804949


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2022)

chellie said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60804949

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So they just happened to have an excess of yellow material to use up...


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## chellie (Mar 21, 2022)

Being reported that they are firing live rounds and stun grenades at protestors in Kherson


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## chellie (Mar 21, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505936820827312133


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## IanM (Mar 21, 2022)

Strewth.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2022)

chellie said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505936820827312133

Click to expand...

😢


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2022)

chellie said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505936820827312133

Click to expand...

A tragic case that sadly sums up all that is wrong with the conflict. Someone so brave who should have been allowed to live his final days in peace


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2022)

Unfortunately the natural progression of war is progressive escalation unless both sides shows some basic value to human life. The  Russian hierarchy show no such compassion so IMO escalation is to be expected unless nations like China start putting on pressure: it's very regretful that India has chosen to put business interests to the fore.

I fear its going to get significantly worse before any solution shows on the horizon.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2022)

The only other hope is that a 'Valkyrie' plot could be successful.


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## woofers (Mar 23, 2022)

If Abromovich sells Chelsea, who gets the sales proceeds money ?
Also, who is paying the parking and harbour fees for the aircraft and boats that are impounded ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2022)

woofers said:



			If Abromovich sells Chelsea, who gets the sales proceeds money ?
Also, who is paying the parking and harbour fees for the aircraft and boats that are impounded ?
		
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Taken from the Independent online:
Any money from the sale of Chelsea would either be frozen by the Government or can be channeled into a charity. The process will be closely monitored by government officials, who will require guarantees of where charitable donations go before signing off on any sale. 

That is a lot of money sat somewhere treading water

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/09/rus...his-is-what-happens-after-theyre-seized-.html

It's a murky one. If the oligarchs wont pay, from the sounds of it it makes sense to to make sure the boats don't deteriorate, then govts will have to cough up, hoping they will get it back either from the oligarch when unfrozen, or through the sale of the boat if ultimately seized.

It is these sorts of details which I find very interesting, the practical things.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Taken from the Independent online:
Any money from the sale of Chelsea would either be frozen by the Government or can be channeled into a charity. The process will be closely monitored by government officials, who will require guarantees of where charitable donations go before signing off on any sale. 

That is a lot of money sat somewhere treading water

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/09/rus...his-is-what-happens-after-theyre-seized-.html

It's a murky one. If the oligarchs wont pay, from the sounds of it it makes sense to to make sure the boats don't deteriorate, then govts will have to cough up, hoping they will get it back either from the oligarch when unfrozen, or through the sale of the boat if ultimately seized.

It is these sorts of details which I find very interesting, the practical things.
		
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Guessing not difficult for each national court to put a lien on the frozen or seized assets with a release fee.


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## greenone (Mar 23, 2022)

Good time to be on the hunt for a second hand super yacht.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

woofers said:



			If Abromovich sells Chelsea, who gets the sales proceeds money ?
Also, who is paying the parking and harbour fees for the aircraft and boats that are impounded ?
		
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Proceeds of sale would simply be held as per any assets already held.  
Surely storage fees are the responsibility of whoever seized them to properly store and, in this case, is just a necessary cost (or overhead) of 'government'. Magnified by this particular crisis, but no different to stuff seized and held by Customs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2022)

greenone said:



			Good time to be on the hunt for a second hand super yacht.
		
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What if they want if back in a couple of years time. Not sure they are people I'd want to mess with.


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## 4LEX (Mar 23, 2022)

Russia have scored the biggest own goal in history.

They've been battered in 4 weeks by a weaker force and are now on the turn. Any threat of Russian invasion in Europe has gone.

The hardware losses they've faced and the losses in men are astonishing. They're no longer a superpower and NATO should take the chance to destroy Putin while they can.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Russia have scored the biggest own goal in history.

They've been battered in 4 weeks by a weaker force and are now on the turn. Any threat of Russian invasion in Europe has gone.

The hardware losses they've faced and the losses in men are astonishing. They're no longer a superpower and NATO should take the chance to destroy Putin while they can.
		
Click to expand...

I'll have some of whatever you are on please!


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## 4LEX (Mar 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'll have some of whatever you are on please!
		
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Russia are finished. Come back and big yourself up in 2 weeks.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Russia are finished. Come back and big yourself up in 2 weeks.
		
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Money where your mouth is (fingers are) then! A Tenner (to H4H of course) says they'll still be in Ukraine, especially the South-East, in 2 weeks!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 23, 2022)

Gents, a bit distasteful betting on the outcome of a war


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gents, a bit distasteful betting on the outcome of a war 

Click to expand...

I'd be over the moon if I had to pay up!
Besides, it's not a 'bet' as such. It's  'put up or shut up' suggestion to, hopefully, stop ridiculous, if highly desirable, claims!


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## IainP (Mar 24, 2022)

One month today ☹
I was thinking the other day how without meaning to the situation can become 'normalised' and you can become desensitised to the news each day.

I've sometimes gazed out the window trying to imagine rockets flying over head,  tanks coming along the road.  
It's hard to make sense of.

Sorry just a bit of a ramble. Helps appreciate what we have.


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## RichA (Mar 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			One month today ☹
I was thinking the other day how without meaning to the situation can become 'normalised' and you can become desensitised to the news each day.

I've sometimes gazed out the window trying to imagine rockets flying over head,  tanks coming along the road.  
It's hard to make sense of.

Sorry just a bit of a ramble. Helps appreciate what we have.
		
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Yes. It felt weird watching the news yesterday, when the opening headline related to cash in our pockets rather than the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
I hate the idea that after a few weeks the world gets fatigued with the news and stops paying attention while the atrocities continue.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			Yes. It felt weird watching the news yesterday, when the opening headline related to cash in our pockets rather than the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
I hate the idea that after a few weeks the world gets fatigued with the news and stops paying attention while the atrocities continue.
		
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The media are the ones that get “fatigued” rather than the public.


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## phillarrow (Mar 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			The media are the ones that get “fatigued” rather than the public.
		
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I disagree. Compassion fatigue is recognised phenomenon. It is thought to be part of our survival instinct.

Just look at this thread for an example. Two random dates - one from early on, one from recently: Feb 27th = 42 posts, March 17th = 3 posts. 

"We" are just as guilty as the media in this regard, I'm afraid.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I disagree. Compassion fatigue is recognised phenomenon. It is thought to be part of our survival instinct.

Just look at this thread for an example. Two random dates - one from early on, one from recently: Feb 27th = 42 posts, March 17th = 3 posts.

"We" are just as guilty as the media in this regard, I'm afraid.
		
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Perhaps, as things have stagnated , there is nothing to post at the moment. Most of us that might have some interest in the day to day in Ukraine will be relying more on live coverage on Twitter.


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			... Compassion fatigue is recognised phenomenon. It is thought to be part of our survival instinct.
...
		
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There's apparently 2 types - as described to me by a Police Diver acquaintance some time ago. From memory, along the lines of...
1. Inability to feel compassion for victims anymore - after observing/participating in 'too many' crisis events.
2. The 'adoption' of someone else's crisis related stress.
Apparently, folk in his role were quite susceptible to both!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps, as things have stagnated , there is nothing to post at the moment. Most of us that might have some interest in the day to day in Ukraine will be relying more on live coverage on Twitter.
		
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I suppose the most important thing that is ongoing as far as UK public direct involvement in other than fundraising is the refugee settlement programme and how it is going - numbers etc, specifically for those with no family link in the UK.  I’m not hearing much about it on the news or from those managing it….though to be honest I am not sure who that is.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 24, 2022)

My wife has been given the focal role for coordination of the Ukrainian's being settled in Wokingham for the council with regards vetting, benefits, schools etc. There could be 500 coming here. Had first meeting at a volunteers house yesterday and looks like she will be very busy over coming weeks


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps, as things have stagnated , there is nothing to post at the moment. Most of us that might have some interest in the day to day in Ukraine will be relying more on live coverage on Twitter.
		
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It's certainly something of a relief (that's doesn't decrease my concern) to have other things on the Beeb's home page.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			My wife has been given the focal role for coordination of the Ukrainian's being settled in Wokingham for the council with regards vetting, benefits, schools etc. There could be 500 coming here. Had first meeting at a volunteers house yesterday and looks like she will be very busy over coming weeks
		
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Good to hear.  So the responsibility for homing refugees is with the councils.  Well that’s better than central government trying to do it.  How do councils find out those in their LA area who have offered to home those who do not have family in UK.  Is there a system and process connecting register of interest to house with the councils?  I guess there must be something.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 24, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good to hear.  So the responsibility for homing refugees is with the councils.  Well that’s better than central government trying to do it.  How do councils find out those in their LA area who have offered to home those who do not have family in UK.  Is there a system and process connecting register of interest to house with the councils?  I guess there must be something.
		
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i am not sure on these but they have a big list of volunteers, probably from the nastional register, and the first steps are going to see them, explain how things work etc. The wholes process only kicked off yesterday and Zara's big boss in Housing volunteered her!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			My wife has been given the focal role for coordination of the Ukrainian's being settled in Wokingham for the council with regards vetting, benefits, schools etc. There could be 500 coming here. Had first meeting at a volunteers house yesterday and looks like she will be very busy over coming weeks
		
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HID works for a charity called Involve in Wokingham which is funded via the council. Not sure what their involvement has/will be but as the building contains a lot of charities including the Wokingham Food Bank I ma sure they will be helping


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## SaintHacker (Mar 24, 2022)

Some slightly better news today, son is only on the reserve list to go to Poland so hopefully won't be needed, although remains on 48hr notice should things change. Fingers tightly crossed they don't


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2022)

Seems chemical weapons not off the table for Putin https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...sia-have-and-what-has-it-used-before-12563036


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Seems chemical weapons not off the table for Putin https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...sia-have-and-what-has-it-used-before-12563036

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I don’t think that Putin would think twice about using other, non conventional, weapons. He’s got previous all over the place for doing so.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don’t think that Putin would think twice about using other, non conventional, weapons. He’s got previous all over the place for doing so.
		
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Salisbury still glows at night. Question is whether someone can be the voice of reason in his ear. I think others know the implications of any chemical action


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Some slightly better news today, son is only on the reserve list to go to Poland so hopefully won't be needed, although remains on 48hr notice should things change. Fingers tightly crossed they don't
		
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I suspect your lad would rather be in Poland than doing rear party ballache in - Larkhill I presume.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don’t think that Putin would think twice about using other, non conventional, weapons. He’s got previous all over the place for doing so.
		
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Not overly convinced taking into account:

How close his main objectives at present are to Russia
How close his own troops are to the opposition.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 24, 2022)

The one thing that doesn't make any sense in all this is that Putin has said that he doesn't want NATO in a neighbouring country *IF* Ukraine were to join NATO. If Russia were to be successful in taking over Ukraine they would then have a border with Romania, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland, all of which are NATO members. If Putin achieves his goals then he will have four neighbouring countries that are NATO members. If he'd done nothing and allowed Ukraine to join NATO he would've had one neighbouring country that was a member of NATO.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Not overly convinced taking into account:

How close his main objectives at present are to Russia
How close his own troops are to the opposition.
		
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_During the Second Chechen War, in October 2002 Russian troops used a gas containing the opioid carfentanil after Chechen rebels stormed a Moscow theatre and took people hostage._

_The substance - 10,000 more powerful than morphine - killed 120 of the hostages._

Doesn’t strike me as someone who particularly cares about his own people!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 24, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The one thing that doesn't make any sense in all this is that Putin has said that he doesn't want NATO in a neighbouring country *IF* Ukraine were to join NATO. If Russia were to be successful in taking over Ukraine they would then have a border with Romania, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland, all of which are NATO members. If Putin achieves his goals then he will have four neighbouring countries that are NATO members. If he'd done nothing and allowed Ukraine to join NATO he would've had one neighbouring country that was a member of NATO.
		
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I'm not sure he wants to take over Ukraine (I.e. make it part of Russia). I think he wants a regime change, with a government friendly to Russia. 

Neither option is one that seems in any way realistic anyway.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The one thing that doesn't make any sense in all this is that Putin has said that he doesn't want NATO in a neighbouring country *IF* Ukraine were to join NATO. If Russia were to be successful in taking over Ukraine they would then have a border with Romania, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland, all of which are NATO members. If Putin achieves his goals then he will have four neighbouring countries that are NATO members. If he'd done nothing and allowed Ukraine to join NATO he would've had one neighbouring country that was a member of NATO.
		
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This article seems to sum it up well, for me. https://www.latimes.com/politics/st...dimir-putin-so-obsessed-with-ukraine-invasion
Ukraine is too valuable to Russia, both for its resources and as a buffer between Russia, Putin's primary concern, and Nato members.


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2022)

Not everyone is a happy chap then


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## RichA (Mar 27, 2022)

Not sure why all the handwringing and backtracking over Biden's remarks is taking place, when it's common knowledge that Putin's people have been trying to subvert western elections for the last decade.
I would have thought his being described as a war criminal and butcher in the last week or so was more inflammatory.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 31, 2022)

Takes some nerves this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509529641190522887


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2022)

Better than sleeping policeman 😳


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## Swango1980 (Mar 31, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Takes some nerves this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509529641190522887

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You wonder how accurate that was? As the cameraman, I reckon I would film from a further distance if it was real, just in case.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You wonder how accurate that was? As the cameraman, I reckon I would film from a further distance if it was real, just in case.
		
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I strongly suspect it's (more) fake news. Call me cynical, but there seems to be a lot of it about!


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## RichA (Apr 1, 2022)

I thought it looked like the guy with the camera phone and his buddy were helping the civilians safely negotiate the mines. 
I wouldn't trust myself to walk between them, never mind towing a trailer.


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## road2ruin (Apr 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you know …Has the UK state got a system and process up and running yet for admitting Ukrainian refugees - especially for those who wish to come here but have no relatives currently in the UK - or is it still ad hoc and up to individuals to try and work their way through…?  We seem to be lagging miles behind the rest of Europe despite the generosity of the UK public offering to host.
		
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Having listened to numerous phone calls on the radio from people who have offered to have a family I have concluded 2 things. 1. At best the organisers of this system are just shambolic, at worst it's by design to ensure we have as few people from Ukraine as possible in our country. 2. The British people are desperate to help but are being completely let down.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Having listened to numerous phone calls on the radio from people who have offered to have a family I have concluded 2 things. 1. At best the organisers of this system are just shambolic, at worst it's by design to ensure we have as few people from Ukraine as possible in our country. 2. *The British people are desperate to help but are being completely let down.*

Click to expand...

There is a certain amount of 'Red tape' that's required and h wheels of government DO turn slowly! The Windrush Generation catastrophe is probably still an open sore!


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There is a certain amount of 'Red tape' that's required and h wheels of government DO turn slowly! The Windrush Generation catastrophe is probably still an open sore!
		
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Unfortunately there is no easy and quick way to distinguish the good from the terrorists in their midst.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately there is no easy and quick way to distinguish the good from the terrorists in their midst.
		
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Why would there be a need to? 'Terrorists' don't need to hide as refugees!
It's attitudes like that that caused the Windrush scandal!
Though there does need to be some sort of registration - to prevent similar happening in the future.
It's the classic 'Red Tape' problem!


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## road2ruin (Apr 1, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately there is no easy and quick way to distinguish the good from the terrorists in their midst.
		
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The Russian agents who launched a biological attack on the streets of Salisbury didn't need to hide in amongst refugees so I don't think we need to worry about that. The fact is that the majority of those coming abroad are female, very young or very old as the men of fighting age are doing just that. The stories of the Ukrainian refugees being expected to fill in online forms, on their mobiles, whilst fleeing from war is simply astonishing whilst we claim to be welcoming of those in need. All this while other countries open their borders and accept them. It is genuinely embarrassing to watch and just hope that those who are struggling to get over here realise it isn't the British people it is solely down to those making the rules.


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Why would there be a need to? 'Terrorists' don't need to hide as refugees!
It's attitudes like that that caused the Windrush scandal!
Though there does need to be some sort of registration - to prevent similar happening in the future.
It's the classic 'Red Tape' problem!
		
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OK is this your view of security and border control? if so tell Sunak: he'd would love to take the chance to slash the security budget if he agreed!

Windrush is a utterly different scenario and societal era.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

drdel said:



			OK is this your view of security and border control? if so tell Sunak: he'd would love to take the chance to slash the security budget if he agreed!

Windrush is a utterly different scenario and societal era.
		
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I'm not advocating any reduction in the security budget! In fact, there's almost certainly going to be an increase reqd! I'm suggesting that a streamlined approach is used *for this emergency*!
While Windrush was certainly 'different', the potential issues are very similar/along the same lines! In fact, the Windrush catastrophe can provide lessons for this emergency!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not advocating any reduction in the security budget! In fact, there's almost certainly going to be an increase reqd! I'm suggesting that a streamlined approach is used *for this emergency*!
While Windrush was certainly 'different', the potential issues are very similar/along the same lines! In fact, the Windrush catastrophe can provide lessons for this emergency!
		
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Was there any security issues with Windrush?   I believe the issue was due to people who had come to the UK from the West Indies around 50 years ago who had not taken British Citizenship being asked to leave the country (I'm not supporting the policy though)   

I don't think people coming from Ukraine would tend to be potential terrorists.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Was there any security issues with Windrush?   I believe the issue was due to people who had come to the UK from the West Indies around 50 years ago who had not taken British Citizenship being asked to leave the country (I'm not supporting the policy though)

I don't think people coming from Ukraine would tend to be potential terrorists.
		
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It was - at least that general area. I'm happy to bung that in the general '(Border) Security' category though.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 1, 2022)

Our club is running a Ukraine stableford this weekend , with all the entry money going to the Ukraine fund.
I think it's a great idea , are any other clubs doing this ?


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## upsidedown (Apr 1, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Our club is running a Ukraine stableford this weekend , with all the entry money going to the Ukraine fund.
I think it's a great idea , are any other clubs doing this ?
		
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Yup, on Sunday 👍


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Our club is running a Ukraine stableford this weekend , with all the entry money going to the Ukraine fund.
I think it's a great idea , are any other clubs doing this ?
		
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We had a three day pairs comp along with a raffle and various auction items.  The pro team have put up various group teaching lessons for auction.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2022)

Heard reported today that UK has actually admitted all of 500 Ukrainian refugees. 500! When there are 200,000 offers of accommodation registered, and such as the Republic of Ireland has admitted more than 20,000.  Three weeks after the 'system' was launched (18th March I think) we have admitted 500 - maybe even 1000, it's utterly shameful and embarrassing.  What the he** is going on.  And please if all that we've got is 'security concerns' then I despair - as if the UK is the only country in Europe that has terrorist security concerns. 

It's either a Home Office shambles or something that can't be mentioned never mind discussed.  Can anyone explain in a non-P way please why our verification and vetting system is - or has to be - so drawn out.  If the answer to that question is 'No' - then so be it. I can draw my own conclusions.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard reported today that UK has actually admitted all of 500 Ukrainian refugees. 500! When there are 200,000 offers of accommodation registered, and such as the Republic of Ireland has admitted more than 20,000.  Three weeks after the 'system' was launched (18th March I think) we have admitted 500 - maybe even 1000, it's utterly shameful and embarrassing.  What the he** is going on.  And please if all that we've got is 'security concerns' then I despair - as if the UK is the only country in Europe that has terrorist security concerns.

It's either a Home Office shambles or something that can't be mentioned never mind discussed.  Can anyone explain in a non-P way please why our verification and vetting system is - or has to be - so drawn out.  If the answer to that question is 'No' - then so be it. I can draw my own conclusions.
		
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Not sure of the numbers. Are you comparing apples with pears? You say Republic of Ireland has admitted more than 20,000. Is that in the 3 weeks since the UK system was launched (in which you are comparing the 500 UK figure to), or for the entire crisis so far?

I also read an article, dated from 4 days ago, that says 2,700 Visas have been granted in the UK under the new scheme, although the total figure since the beginning of March is 25,500.


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## road2ruin (Apr 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure of the numbers. Are you comparing apples with pears? You say Republic of Ireland has admitted more than 20,000. Is that in the 3 weeks since the UK system was launched (in which you are comparing the 500 UK figure to), or for the entire crisis so far?

I also read an article, dated from 4 days ago, that says 2,700 Visas have been granted in the UK under the new scheme, although the total figure since the beginning of March is 25,500.
		
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You only have to listen to any one of the thousands that have offer places to refugees to know that the entire system is a shambles. Those who registered on the very first day haven't heard a thing, now it transpires that the department may have lost a load of data which in itself is a serious breach of GDPR but that's another matter. I would tend to agree with SILH in the sense that I think it is embarrassing, asking people to fill in a 50 odd page document when most are on mobile phones and requiring various documentation which a lot haven't got as they weren't exactly thinking that proof of address or a utility bill was top of their list when trying to escape the bombing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure of the numbers. Are you comparing apples with pears? You say Republic of Ireland has admitted more than 20,000. Is that in the 3 weeks since the UK system was launched (in which you are comparing the 500 UK figure to), or for the entire crisis so far?

I also read an article, dated from 4 days ago, that says 2,700 Visas have been granted in the UK under the new scheme, although the total figure since the beginning of March is 25,500.
		
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Not sure - numbers were given by Nick Ferrari on LBC this morning.  Number of visas is one thing - number actually admitted is what Ferrari was having a 'flip' over - though the clip doesn't mention the numbers they were mentioned earlier in his programme - but I think you can tell he's not impressed...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/passionate-rant-homes-ukraine-scheme/

That said - On Iain Dale's programme a couple or three of days ago Lord Harrington said that he is aiming to have 15,000 visas a week being processed - with each application taking about 48hrs.  He will go back on ID show in about two weeks to report back on whether the system has achieved that target and will take responsibility one way or the other.  One particular newspaper reported on this a few days ago.  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-hours-applying-aim-15-000-refugees-week.html


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			You only have to listen to any one of the thousands that have offer places to refugees to know that the entire system is a shambles. Those who registered on the very first day haven't heard a thing, now it transpires that the department may have lost a load of data which in itself is a serious breach of GDPR but that's another matter. I would tend to agree with SILH in the sense that I think it is embarrassing, asking people to fill in a 50 odd page document when most are on mobile phones and requiring various documentation which a lot haven't got as they weren't exactly thinking that proof of address or a utility bill was top of their list when trying to escape the bombing.
		
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Yes spot on ,especially when that address isn’t there anymore.
It’s just a pile of bricks.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 7, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			You only have to listen to any one of the thousands that have offer places to refugees to know that the entire system is a shambles. Those who registered on the very first day haven't heard a thing, now it transpires that the department may have lost a load of data which in itself is a serious breach of GDPR but that's another matter. I would tend to agree with SILH in the sense that I think it is embarrassing, asking people to fill in a 50 odd page document when most are on mobile phones and requiring various documentation which a lot haven't got as they weren't exactly thinking that proof of address or a utility bill was top of their list when trying to escape the bombing.
		
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I'm not saying it isn't poor. My point was, are we genuinely comparing 500 new refugees entering the UK in the last 3 weeks against 20,000 that have entered Ireland in the last 3 weeks? I am very mistrusting when I see statistics being used to make a point, I always like to find out if they are comparing like with like. I'm sure we can all point to media headlines, social media posts and even mainstream journalists quote figures simply to paint a story, yet in reality they are incomparable. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not saying it isn't poor. My point was, are we genuinely comparing 500 new refugees entering the UK in the last 3 weeks against 20,000 that have entered Ireland in the last 3 weeks? I am very mistrusting when I see statistics being used to make a point, I always like to find out if they are comparing like with like. I'm sure we can all point to media headlines, social media posts and even mainstream journalists quote figures simply to paint a story, yet in reality they are incomparable. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
		
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I suggest that if Nick Ferrari and the DM are raising the concerns and making the point, then regardless of the _exact _numbers then it's probable that the numbers are consistent...there are other LBC presenters and newspapers for whom your scepticism might well be well grounded.


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## Crazyface (Apr 8, 2022)

Tax cuts NHS struggling like hell, schools under performing and have been for years, and yet we find 100 MILLION QUID.  at the drop of a hat for ammo for Ukraine.  What the hell is going on? 
Also, whilst I'm on, just who is going to prosecute Putin for these war crimes. What a bloody joke.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 8, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Tax cuts NHS struggling like hell, schools under performing and have been for years, and yet we find 100 MILLION QUID.  at the drop of a hat for ammo for Ukraine.  What the hell is going on? 
Also, whilst I'm on, just who is going to prosecute Putin for these war crimes. What a bloody joke.
		
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Did we find the money, or was it already part of the military budget? I'm assuming there is contingency money for potential global conflicts? 

I'm sure most want to prosecute Putin for war crimes. If you have any cast iron ideas on doing that right now, I'm all ears. I'm sure it is quite the conundrum whilst he is still the Russian leader.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 9, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Tax cuts NHS struggling like hell, schools under performing and have been for years, and yet we find 100 MILLION QUID.  at the drop of a hat for ammo for Ukraine.  What the hell is going on?
Also, whilst I'm on, just who is going to prosecute Putin for these war crimes. What a bloody joke.
		
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Putin will never be brought to justice, in court anyway. Imo
One of his own will take him out or he will just live under the protection of Russia until he dies.


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## 4LEX (Apr 9, 2022)

The next few weeks will be interesting.

Russian military under new leadership, regrouped and rearmed. Ukraine emboldened by the defeat of Russia from the mainland, fuelled by the disgusting war crimes and armed to the teeth from Nato and the West. Russia will once against be taught a lesson in modern warfare, probably claim minor wins in the East and hopefully enter peace talks at the end of the month.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 9, 2022)

4LEX said:



			The next few weeks will be interesting.

Russian military under new leadership, regrouped and rearmed. Ukraine emboldened by the defeat of Russia from the mainland, fuelled by the disgusting war crimes and armed to the teeth from Nato and the West. Russia will once against be taught a lesson in modern warfare, probably claim minor wins in the East and hopefully enter peace talks at the end of the month.
		
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Imo Russia only want a corridor to Crimea. ( I might be wrong).
All the fighting to the West was to split the defence troops over a large area.
They will get what they want as we seem to be standing watching .
But they will have a Ukrainian resistance war forever.
That’s not a good thing imo as how long will the west arm the resistance fighters ?


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## road2ruin (Apr 9, 2022)

4LEX said:



			The next few weeks will be interesting.

Russian military under new leadership, regrouped and rearmed. Ukraine emboldened by the defeat of Russia from the mainland, fuelled by the disgusting war crimes and armed to the teeth from Nato and the West. Russia will once against be taught a lesson in modern warfare, probably claim minor wins in the East and hopefully enter peace talks at the end of the month.
		
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Apparently the Russian’s aren’t taking any chances, the new guy was responsible for a lot of the going on’s in Syria and it’s unlikely to end well for an awful lot of Ukrainian’s and he’s not going to want to fail as the previous lot have.


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## Foxholer (Apr 9, 2022)

From 23rd March


4LEX said:



			Russia are finished. Come back and big yourself up in 2 weeks.
		
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Well those 2 weeks are well and truly up!


4LEX said:



*The next few weeks* will be _interesting_.
		
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I'd hardly call a civilian catastrophe 'interesting'!

Though I do think the 'proper' strategy - for Russia - is to consolidate the 'predominantly Russian speaking' regions in the areas it still has control of - East and South East before any further attempts in North East or against Kyiv. Of course, Ukraine should try to prevent that!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 13, 2022)

Just thinking out loud, but I have just had a peruse on the BBC news site and it mentions that Sweden and Finland are seriously thinking of joining NATO. Has Putins quest to invade and try to conquer more land in Ukraine done more harm in strengthening NATO than he could ever imagine.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Just thinking out loud, but I have just had a peruse on the BBC news site and it mentions that Sweden and Finland are seriously thinking of joining NATO. Has Putins quest to invade and try to conquer more land in Ukraine done more harm in strengthening NATO than he could ever imagine.
		
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I'm pretty sure as soon as Russia invaded Ukraine, NATO was strengthened more than ever.


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## RichA (Apr 13, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Just thinking out loud, but I have just had a peruse on the BBC news site and it mentions that Sweden and Finland are seriously thinking of joining NATO. Has Putins quest to invade and try to conquer more land in Ukraine done more harm in strengthening NATO than he could ever imagine.
		
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Possibly, although judging from today's news it looks like the French are already drafting the terms of their surrender to Russia.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 13, 2022)

RichA said:



			Possibly, although judging from today's news it looks like the French are already drafting the terms of their surrender to Russia.
		
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Is there a function on the site to like without laughing.


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2022)

RichA said:



			Possibly, although judging from today's news it looks like the French are already drafting the terms of their surrender to Russia.
		
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## Tashyboy (Apr 13, 2022)

Imurg said:



View attachment 42255

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😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## marksman (Apr 13, 2022)

To try and brighten things up a bit .   My wife has a very close friend from work who is Ukrainian.   Her friend has obviously been extremely anxious since the start of the war for her friends and family back home.    Even more so because her mother in Ukraine wasn’t at all worried and didn’t think she needed to leave .  Anyway, things moved forward and her friends Mother and niece left Ukraine via Hungary and landed at Edinburgh airport last night. 😊. Then travelled back to the North East .   The whole process has only taken 7 to 8 days .  Made us all unbelievably happy for them and we hope this kind of thing is repeated many times over .


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## williamalex1 (Apr 13, 2022)

Just a thought,  would Russia consider taking back east Germany


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Just a thought,  would Russia consider taking back east Germany 

Click to expand...

As Germany is now united, that would be an invasion of Germany, a NATO nation, so would have extremely severe consequences!


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## williamalex1 (Apr 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			As Germany is now united, that would be an invasion of Germany, a NATO nation, so would have extremely severe consequences!
		
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I said consider, but TBH I don't think that would put Putin off, he seems to have China on his side 🤔 .
And no one wants to risk Armageddin,  except him .


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## 4LEX (Apr 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			From 23rd March

Well those 2 weeks are well and truly up!


I'd hardly call a civilian catastrophe 'interesting'!

Though I do think the 'proper' strategy - for Russia - is to consolidate the 'predominantly Russian speaking' regions in the areas it still has control of - East and South East before any further attempts in North East or against Kyiv. Of course, Ukraine should try to prevent that!
		
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Russia have withdrawn from the majority of gains they made as they didn't have the capacity to hold them.
They've suffered bigger losses than any force since WW2.
They've been humiliated by a massively outnumbered opposition.
They're dipping into reservists aged 50 plus.
The ruble is falling after 6 weeks of insane propping up measures.
The goals have come from taking the entire country and putting a new government in place within days, to trying to win a few major towns in the East after 8 weeks.

Russia are 30 years behind the elite armies in terms of training, strategy and armour/weapons. They're North Korea with more troops and a few nuclear bombs, most of which are likely out of action. One UK Trident sub has likely more nuclear capacity that the whole of Russia.

As for the next phase, Russia will struggle badly. They will need a troop ratio of 4/1 to make any serious gains. They have at best a 50/50 chance of taking any major towns or cities in the East. They won't even attempt an attack on Kyiv, apart from the odd long range missle.

Poor form to throw in civilian deaths, I was talking from a strategic point of view. Any war is a disaster but this has been all Russia's doing and they will have to pay for it over the coming years.


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## 4LEX (Apr 13, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently the Russian’s aren’t taking any chances, the new guy was responsible for a lot of the going on’s in Syria and it’s unlikely to end well for an awful lot of Ukrainian’s and he’s not going to want to fail as the previous lot have.
		
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I think he'll find Syria and the Ukraine are two different beasts!


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Russia have withdrawn from the majority of gains they made as they didn't have the capacity to hold them.
They've suffered bigger losses than any force since WW2.
They've been humiliated by a massively outnumbered opposition.
They're dipping into reservists aged 50 plus.
The ruble is falling after 6 weeks of insane propping up measures.
The goals have come from taking the entire country and putting a new government in place within days, to trying to win a few major towns in the East after 8 weeks.

Russia are 30 years behind the elite armies in terms of training, strategy and armour/weapons. They're North Korea with more troops and a few nuclear bombs, most of which are likely out of action. One UK Trident sub has likely more nuclear capacity that the whole of Russia.

As for the next phase, Russia will struggle badly. They will need a troop ratio of 4/1 to make any serious gains. They have at best a 50/50 chance of taking any major towns or cities in the East. They won't even attempt an attack on Kyiv, apart from the odd long range missle.

Poor form to throw in civilian deaths, I was talking from a strategic point of view. Any war is a disaster but this has been all Russia's doing and they will have to pay for it over the coming years.
		
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All that waffle, much of it complete B-S  (the Ruble is pretty much back to it's pre-invasion level; Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world - about 6000! - about 50% more than that of US; US losses in Vietnam were nearly 60k and South Vietnam's were over 250K) , to 'cover up' the fact that your earlier post was, as I described it - absolute twaddle!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 14, 2022)

I see the Russian cruiser that has been hit by two missile, is actually on secret underwater trials according to the Kremlin. 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 14, 2022)




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## drdel (Apr 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			All that waffle, much of it complete B-S  (the Ruble is pretty much back to it's pre-invasion level; Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world - about 6000! - about 50% more than that of US; US losses in Vietnam were nearly 60k and South Vietnam's were over 250K) , to 'cover up' the fact that your earlier post was, as I described it - absolute twaddle!
		
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It's a tad ironic that you accuse a poster of "waffle", writing "BST" and "twaddle " just days after claiming a post to be 'condescending'.

I'm sure 4Lex can give as good as he gets but the blind arrogance of your terminology against the opinions of à fellow poster rather amused me.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2022)

It's just Foxholer being an A holer again.


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

drdel said:



			It's a tad ironic that you accuse a poster of "waffle", writing "BST" and "twaddle " just days after claiming a post to be 'condescending'.

I'm sure 4Lex can give as good as he gets but the blind arrogance of your terminology against the opinions of à fellow poster rather amused me.
		
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Kindly identify any of the points I made in the reply to 4LEX's post that were fundamentally wrong!
I'll certainly confess to waffling a bunndle of times though!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly identify any of the points I made in the reply to 4LEX's post that were fundamentally wrong!
I'll certainly confess to waffling a bunndle of times though!
		
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I think you missed his point. Condescending was probably the key word


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think you missed his point. Condescending was probably the key word 

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No, not missed! Nothing condescending about pointing out B-S! 
I make the same challenge to you as to drdel....Identify any of the points I made in the reply to 4LEX's post that were fundamentally wrong!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No, not missed! Nothing condescending about pointing out B-S! 
I make the same challenge to you as to drdel....Identify any of the points I made in the reply to 4LEX's post that were fundamentally wrong!
		
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You're doing it again... . You're missing the point. Why are you asking my to identify where you were wrong? I never even entered that debate with you!? Nor did drdel.

It is the way you made your point, not the point you were trying to make.


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You're doing it again... . You're missing the point. Why are you asking my to identify where you were wrong? I never even entered that debate with you!? Nor did drdel.

It is the way you made your point, not the point you were trying to make.
		
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I call BS if I see BS!
Live with it! There's an 'ignore' button if can't!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I call BS if I see BS!
Live with it! There's an 'ignore' button if can't!
		
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Absolutely fine. 

And, if someone sees a post as condescending, they can call it as condescending.

Live with it. There's an ignore button if you can't


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## RichA (Apr 15, 2022)

drdel said:



			It's a tad ironic that you accuse a poster of "waffle", writing "BST" and "twaddle " just days after claiming a post to be 'condescending'.

I'm sure 4Lex can give as good as he gets but the blind arrogance of your terminology against the opinions of à fellow poster rather amused me.
		
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Better to be arrogant and accurate than arrogant and ignorant.


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## drdel (Apr 15, 2022)

RichA said:



			Better to be arrogant and accurate than arrogant and ignorant.
		
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It would be a good idea for you and FH to read my post. At  no stage did I say FH was right or wrong. I pointed out the irony of his style of response !!


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## Pants (Apr 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			There's an ignore button  

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There sure is.  Started using it a couple of weeks ago. Ah bliss!!!  Just wish that I had started using it a long while ago.  You find that you are not actually missing anything as most of what the ignored poster(s) are spouting is not worth reading in the first place.

 from me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 15, 2022)

Handbags away please lads, Foxy, back in yer box 📦 👍


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Handbags away please lads, Foxy, back in yer box 📦 👍
		
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At least if he's trolling someone else, he's not trolling me. 
Makes a change


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## williamalex1 (Apr 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At least if he's trolling someone else, he's not trolling me.
Makes a change 

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V easy for you to say


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2022)




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## 4LEX (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I call BS if I see BS!
Live with it! There's an 'ignore' button if can't!
		
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If that was the case you'd be calling it on most of your posts.....

I was talking about actual working nuclear war heads, not made up numbers from the Russian version of 'Comical Ali' in Iraq. Anyway, nuclear talk is pointless as the UK, France and the US would wipe Russia from the planet if they used one nuclear bomb. Russia will not use a nuclear weapon, it's all cheap talk which we're seeing is just that from their pitiful foray into Ukraine.

The ruble is being propped up with huge reserves of foreign currency. It's artificially held it's value due to that alone and is on a downward trend as said reserves run low.

The sinking of Russia's flagship in the Black Sea is about as humiliating as it gets. Russia is a spent force, Putin called it on via dodgy intelligence and lost. Theres no way out for him now. He's committed numerous war crimes, achieved nothing, destroyed his economy, lost upwards of 50,000 troops, alienated the entire world and even China are keeping very quiet. But most importantly he's united NATO which will cause more countries to sign up and decrease Russia's national security.

It's a sad state of affairs and my feelings go out to the innocent victims. I'll sign off on that note.


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

4LEX said:



			If that was the case you'd be calling it on most of your posts.....

I was talking about actual working nuclear war heads, not made up numbers from the Russian version of 'Comical Ali' in Iraq. Anyway, nuclear talk is pointless as the UK, France and the US would wipe Russia from the planet if they used one nuclear bomb. Russia will not use a nuclear weapon, it's all cheap talk which we're seeing is just that from their pitiful foray into Ukraine.

The ruble is being propped up with huge reserves of foreign currency. It's artificially held it's value due to that alone and is on a downward trend as said reserves run low.
he situation
The sinking of Russia's flagship in the Black Sea is about as humiliating as it gets. Russia is a spent force, Putin called it on via dodgy intelligence and lost. Theres no way out for him now. He's committed numerous war crimes, achieved nothing, destroyed his economy, lost upwards of 50,000 troops, alienated the entire world and even China are keeping very quiet. But most importantly he's united NATO which will cause more countries to sign up and decrease Russia's national security.

It's a sad state of affairs and my feelings go out to the innocent victims. I'll sign off on that note.
		
Click to expand...

 - that's about the post, not the situation, which is terrible!

Here's independent info on number of warheads that, yet again, shows you are posting absolute drivel!
https://dmerharyana.org/russia-nuclear-weapons-tally/#:~:text=Russia has 6,257 nuclear warheads,number of tests at 1,054.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



 - that's about the post, not the situation, which is terrible!

Here's independent info on number of warheads that, yet again, shows you are posting absolute drivel!
https://dmerharyana.org/russia-nuclear-weapons-tally/#:~:text=Russia has 6,257 nuclear warheads,number of tests at 1,054.
		
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One weapon where numbers mean not a lot


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2022)

Well I didn’t expect this thread to be all about point scoring - appears even a disgraceful invasion by Russia isn’t safe from the highest level pedantry


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			One weapon where numbers mean not a lot
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! But the post was simply to demonstrate the level of twaddle posted by 4LEX, who claimed only 'half a dozen'.
Even the cause of the sinking of the Moskva has not been confirmed yet - though I do suspect (and even hope) it was by Ukranian missile.


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## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I didn’t expect this thread to be all about point scoring - appears even a disgraceful invasion by Russia isn’t safe from the highest level pedantry
		
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Not point scoring....Integrity! Just as Golf is supposedly a demonstration thereof!


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## backwoodsman (Apr 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! But the post was simply to demonstrate the level of twaddle posted by 4LEX, who claimed only 'half a dozen'.
Even the cause of the sinking of the Moskva has not been confirmed yet - though I do suspect (and even hope) it was by Ukranian missile.
		
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For goodness sake, why not try giving it a rest for a bit ...


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			For goodness sake, why not try giving it a rest for a bit ...
		
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Apparently it is all about integrity


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! But the post was simply to demonstrate the level of twaddle posted by 4LEX, who claimed only 'half a dozen'.
Even the cause of the sinking of the Moskva has not been confirmed yet - though I do suspect (and even hope) it was by Ukranian missile.
		
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Perhaps the confirmation was the Russian Defence Minister stating there were missile attacks on Kyve in retaliation.
Moskva roll was air defence of the fleet - seems it had the same issues as Russias armour, poor training and poor equipment.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			For goodness sake, why not try giving it a rest for a bit ...
		
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Let me guess.............Foxholer?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 16, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			For goodness sake, why not try giving it a rest for a bit ...
		
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Good luck with that wish


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Let me guess.............Foxholer?
		
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If you disagree with him then explain where you think he's wrong instead of joining the sniping fest.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If you disagree with him then explain where you think he's wrong instead of joining the sniping fest.
		
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Like many others, I think he has him on ignore.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Like many others, I think he has him on ignore.
		
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I'm probably in that club also 🙂


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## tugglesf239 (Apr 18, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps the confirmation was the Russian Defence Minister stating there were missile attacks on Kyve in retaliation.
Moskva roll was air defence of the fleet - seems it had the same issues as Russias armour, poor training and poor equipment.
		
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Shocking DC skills I’d imagine too. 

There is a picture of him doing the rounds currently. Listing to port with the arse end pretty burnt out.  

NO WAY should that thing even been hit by two anti ship missiles, let alone sunk by them.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Shocking DC skills I’d imagine too.

There is a picture of him doing the rounds currently. Listing to port with the arse end pretty burnt out. 

NO WAY should that thing even been hit by two anti ship missiles, let alone sunk by them.
		
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I'm surprised it's countermeasures couldn't have dealt with it.

Your post reminds me of being in the DC simulator at Raleigh.


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## tugglesf239 (Apr 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm surprised it's countermeasures couldn't have dealt with it.

Your post reminds me of being in the DC simulator at Raleigh.
		
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The DRU? (Or havoc as it’s also known) I’m a veteran of that bloody thing (and the One at whale island)

Great way to spend a morning. whacking your thumbs with lump hammers in Ice cold water 😂

Regarding the counter measures. I’m an ex Golly so ASMD (anti ship missile defence for the layman) is my specialist subject.

Fully agree. A capital ship’s softkill / hard kill should have sorted a duel raid out no issues whatsoever.

The amount of CWIS and PDMS on a Slava is frightening. The fact that they got bounced by two subsonic ASM’s is comical tbh.

You also have to wonder what damage control state / action readiness the ship was in for that limited damage to have spread so quickly.

I know that living for long periods of time in 1 Zulu (royal navy equivalent… again for layman) is a pain in the arse but possibly indicated that they simply did not fear an attack.

Either way. It’s a comical loss imo.

No wonder the pinkie MSM are not covering it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			The DRU? (Or havoc as it’s also known) I’m a veteran of that bloody thing (and the One at whale island)

Great way to spend a morning. whacking your thumbs with lump hammers in Ice cold water 😂

Regarding the counter measures. I’m an ex Golly so ASMD (anti ship missile defence for the layman) is my specialist subject.

Fully agree. A capital ship’s softkill / hard kill should have sorted a duel raid out no issues whatsoever.

The amount of CWIS and PDMS on a Slava is frightening. The fact that they got bounced by two subsonic ASM’s is comical tbh.

You also have to wonder what damage control state / action readiness the ship was in for that limited damage to have spread so quickly.

I know that living for long periods of time in 1 Zulu (royal navy equivalent… again for layman) is a pain in the arse but possibly indicated that they simply did not fear an attack.

Either way. It’s a comical loss imo.

*No wonder the pinkie MSM are not covering it.*

Click to expand...

Sorry…not covering what?


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## tugglesf239 (Apr 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry…not covering what?
		
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Russian media (communist Pinkies)  are paying lip service to the sinking of the flagship of the Black Sea.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 18, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Russian media (communist Pinkies)  are paying lip service to the sinking of the flagship of the Black Sea.
		
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Lol…… methinks someone was about to jump to the wrong conclusion 😁


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			The DRU? (Or havoc as it’s also known) I’m a veteran of that bloody thing (and the One at whale island)

Great way to spend a morning. whacking your thumbs with lump hammers in Ice cold water 😂

Regarding the counter measures. I’m an ex Golly so ASMD (anti ship missile defence for the layman) is my specialist subject.

Fully agree. A capital ship’s softkill / hard kill should have sorted a duel raid out no issues whatsoever.

The amount of CWIS and PDMS on a Slava is frightening. The fact that they got bounced by two subsonic ASM’s is comical tbh.

You also have to wonder what damage control state / action readiness the ship was in for that limited damage to have spread so quickly.

I know that living for long periods of time in 1 Zulu (royal navy equivalent… again for layman) is a pain in the arse but possibly indicated that they simply did not fear an attack.

Either way. It’s a comical loss imo.

No wonder the pinkie MSM are not covering it.
		
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An old mucker of mine was a Chief Golly, always going on about Cms and CCms infinitem  🙂.   

The DRU, those softwood wedges were never going to stop the water in the pressure pipes before your hands were  unusable, the thunderflashes didn't help either. 😂

BZ


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2022)

Wimbledon bans Russian and Belarusian players.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/61161016
I'm not in favour of this - the current 'non-flagged' status being my preference - but I can understand why they have done it.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Wimbledon bans Russian and Belarusian players.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/61161016
I'm not in favour of this - the current 'non-flagged' status being my preference - but I can understand why they have done it.
		
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The argument I heard earlier was that if some Ukrainian sports stars were taking up arms to fight then why should Russian/Belarusian players benefit in their absence. Personally I agree and whilst I know the players from those countries are being unfairly treated they only have their country to blame.


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The argument I heard earlier was that if some Ukrainian sports stars were taking up arms to fight then why should Russian/Belarusian players benefit in their absence. Personally I agree and whilst I know the players from those countries are being unfairly treated they only have their country to blame.
		
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That's also a reasonable argument - though I don't know of currently playing (Male) Ukrainian Tennis players in the top 200. Do you?
Plenty in the Ladies though.
Hopefully, it'll all be settled before Wimbledon anyway!


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## Mudball (Apr 24, 2022)

Any idea how the Ukraine visa is working? I have no clue about it, but saw this post from one of our friendly neighbors in our local Facebook group


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2022)




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## road2ruin (Jun 9, 2022)

_Two Britons and a Moroccan man captured by Russian forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death, the Russian-owned news agency RIA Novosti is reporting.

Aiden Aslin, 28, from Nottinghamshire, Shaun Pinner, 48, from Bedfordshire, and a third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, appeared in a court in the Donetsk People's Republic, which is held by pro-Russian rebels.

The court is not internationally recognised.

They are reportedly charged with being mercenaries. But the British men's families say they were in Ukraine's military.

Both British men are serving members of Ukraine’s armed forces and the UK has made clear they are prisoners of war entitled to immunity and should not face prosecution for taking part in hostilities.

On Telegram RIA News said: "The Supreme Court of the DPR passed the first sentence on mercenaries- the British Aiden Aslin and Sean Pinner and the Moroccan Saadun Brahim were sentenced to death, RIA Novosti correspondent reports from the courtroom."
_
Not sure what this would mean for any escalation should British nationals be executed as a result of a trail in a kangaroo court.


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## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2022)

road2ruin said:



_Two Britons and a Moroccan man captured by Russian forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death, the Russian-owned news agency RIA Novosti is reporting._

_Aiden Aslin, 28, from Nottinghamshire, Shaun Pinner, 48, from Bedfordshire, and a third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, appeared in a court in the Donetsk People's Republic, which is held by pro-Russian rebels._

_The court is not internationally recognised._

_They are reportedly charged with being mercenaries. But the British men's families say they were in Ukraine's military._

_Both British men are serving members of Ukraine’s armed forces and the UK has made clear they are prisoners of war entitled to immunity and should not face prosecution for taking part in hostilities._

_On Telegram RIA News said: "The Supreme Court of the DPR passed the first sentence on mercenaries- the British Aiden Aslin and Sean Pinner and the Moroccan Saadun Brahim were sentenced to death, RIA Novosti correspondent reports from the courtroom."_

Not sure what this would mean for any escalation should British nationals be executed as a result of a trail in a kangaroo court.
		
Click to expand...

Well with the Germans having software problems delaying the arrival of long range artillery until December and failing to release the promised Marders things are going swimmingly.

The USA will be seriously looking at Europe when it comes to further NATO agreements me thinks with the lack of real commitment by certain European countries.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 30, 2022)

Feeling a bit down today, son shipped out with his Regiment to Poland for a 6 month stint this morning, although there is hope it will be shorter as Russia haven't advanced anything like as quickly as expected when we first sent troops out. In reality he is hundreds of miles from any real fighting but the 'what if' is always in the back of the mind


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 30, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Feeling a bit down today, son shipped out with his Regiment to Poland for a 6 month stint this morning, although there is hope it will be shorter as Russia haven't advanced anything like as quickly as expected when we first sent troops out. In reality he is hundreds of miles from any real fighting but the 'what if' is always in the back of the mind
		
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He’s with his band of brothers and they will all look after each other, it’s always the worst for those left behind, 
Meanwhile , he’s experiencing what he’s been training for and he will be fine. 👍


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			He’s with his band of brothers and they will all look after each other, it’s always the worst for those left behind,
Meanwhile , he’s experiencing what he’s been training for and he will be fine. 👍
		
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Exactly this, my regiment are doing 9 month rotational tours which started over 18 months ago split between Estonia and Poland.
Spoke to a few back in tidworth last weekend and they are loving the amount of new and different training and excercises they are doing.
Doing what you do best rather than sitting around a camp in UK has always been the preferred option.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 30, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Exactly this, my regiment are doing 9 month rotational tours which started over 18 months ago split between Estonia and Poland.
Spoke to a few back in tidworth last weekend and they are loving the amount of new and different training and excercises they are doing.
*Doing what you do best rather than sitting around a camp in UK has always been the preferred option*.
		
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Thoughts on this one please from ex servicemen. Talking to the partner of a guy who is coming  out of the forces. He is fed up of 10 years training but no action. Do the guys and girls crave putting practice into action.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Thoughts on this one please from ex servicemen. Talking to the partner of a guy who is coming  out of the forces. He is fed up of 10 years training but no action. Do the guys and girls crave putting practice into action.
		
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They are not bloodthirsty army barmy, rambo types with a need for violence
But they do need to feel that they are doing all the years of training and grind for a purpose

Some will be deployed and will do their respective jobs to the best of their ability, some are always going to be in the back ground, some at the sharp end
and yes sometimes their lives will be on the line, they understand this as part of the job. this is what makes them special

Proud to have served in a very limited way


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Thoughts on this one please from ex servicemen. Talking to the partner of a guy who is coming  out of the forces. He is fed up of 10 years training but no action. Do the guys and girls crave putting practice into action.
		
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Never had a problem with training, always served me well for when doing the job was required. If you follow what is going on in Ukraine in depth you can clearly see what the lack of any fundamental training can lead to.

Nobody in their right mind looked for “action” but the knowledge that you and those around you knew what to do when it did happen was worth its weight in gold.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 30, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Never had a problem with training, always served me well for when doing the job was required. If you follow what is going on in Ukraine in depth you can clearly see what the lack of any fundamental training can lead to.

Nobody in their right mind looked for “action” but the knowledge that you and those around you knew what to do when it did happen was worth its weight in gold.
		
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Am sure the word action is not what I meant, but what she said. I feel she meant he wanted to put his training to use. I found it odd because she only mentioned this within the last month when Ukraine is still kicking off. Off to Ypres with her in a couple of weeks so am sure we will have a few more natters.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Am sure the word action is not what I meant, but what she said. I feel she meant he wanted to put his training to use. I found it odd because she only mentioned this within the last month when Ukraine is still kicking off. Off to Ypres with her in a couple of weeks so am sure we will have a few more natters.
		
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While your there, take a walk around the towns walls to the leper war cemetery. Lovely town and would recommend anyone who has the time to have a visit.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 30, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			While your there, take a walk around the towns walls to the leper war cemetery. Lovely town and would recommend anyone who has the time to have a visit.
		
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Its a five day RBL trip which three of us have planned from 17th -  21st staying in Novotel Ypres. Wreath laying ceremony on the Tuesday. There’s quite a few day trips planned to Vimy ridge, Talbot house, Essex farm cemetery, Thiepval, Tyne Cot etc etc.

Last week was spent in Normandy with three ex “Woofers”. Very Moving Week. And very memorable.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Its a five day RBL trip which three of us have planned from 17th -  21st staying in Novotel Ypres. Wreath laying ceremony on the Tuesday. There’s quite a few day trips planned to Vimy ridge, Talbot house, Essex farm cemetery, Thiepval, Tyne Cot etc etc.

Last week was spent in Normandy with three ex “Woofers”. Very Moving Week. And very memorable.
		
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Novotel normal has a few vets in around this time of year. Although Normandy is pretty moving the visits that you are off on will knock you for six.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 30, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Novotel normal has a few vets in around this time of year. Although Normandy is pretty moving the visits that you are off on will knock you for six.
		
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Few stories to tell re Normandy but don’t want to knock the WW3 thread off topic. 👍


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2022)

Reports of a couple of missiles landing in Poland, likely to be an escalation in tensions.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 15, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Reports of a couple of missiles landing in Poland, likely to be an escalation in tensions.
		
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I think the Czechs are getting involved as well. ☹️


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 15, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Reports of a couple of missiles landing in Poland, likely to be an escalation in tensions.
		
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Possibly just want the orcs need right now. 

Straight from ‘Maskirova’ doctrine. 

A few missiles into Ukraines closets ally. 

Kremlin shouts… ooohh we are being portrayed as the baddies. It weren’t us honest. It’s the Ukrainians stirring it up. 

Designed to agitate the Poles which will up the international rhetoric. 

Russia gets to claim that Russia is now at grave risk. This legitimises further war investment etc internally and paves The way for increased activity. 

Only issue being the red army have just had their arses handed to them so there’s no option left but to use tactical nukes in territory. 

That’s my fag packet calculations anyway 😂😂


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 15, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I think the Czechs are getting involved as well. ☹️
		
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where’s that Tash?

Do you have a link please? Ta


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## Dando (Nov 15, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			where’s that Tash?

Do you have a link please? Ta
		
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According to the bbc they’ve called the Russian administration terrorists


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2022)

Russia saying it was an Ukrainian attack 🤣


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Possibly just want the orcs need right now.

Straight from ‘Maskirova’ doctrine.

A few missiles into Ukraines closets ally.

Kremlin shouts… ooohh we are being portrayed as the baddies. It weren’t us honest. It’s the Ukrainians stirring it up.

Designed to agitate the Poles which will up the international rhetoric.

Russia gets to claim that Russia is now at grave risk. This legitimises further war investment etc internally and paves The way for increased activity.

Only issue being the red army have just had their arses handed to them so there’s no option left but to use tactical nukes in territory.

That’s my fag packet calculations anyway 😂😂
		
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Im not sure your fag arrse prediction of tactical nukes will pass water IMHO.  The global implications would be to great.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 15, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			where’s that Tash?

Do you have a link please? Ta
		
Click to expand...


*Czech parliament passes Russian 'terrorist' motion*





Rob Cameron
Reporting from Prague
The Czech parliament has passed a motion describing the current Russian administration as "terrorist".
The motion singled out widespread attacks on Ukrainian civilian targets and key energy infrastructure.
During the vote, 129 of 156 MPs present in the 200-seat chamber approved the motion, which means several dozen opposition MPs are likely to have voted with the government.
The motion was opposed by all 14 MPs in the far-right SPD party.
The Czech centre-right government is one of Ukraine's most stalwart supporters, and was among the first to send heavy weapons - including tanks - to the Ukrainian armed forces.

Was on BBC earlier


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 15, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure your fag arrse prediction of tactical nukes will pass water IMHO.  The global implications would be to great.
		
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Was more a thought that the red army has nothing left to give. 

They might up the age limits on conscription and they pinch the remaining dregs from the gulags (after Wangner have had their fill). 

But it would appear from a number of sources that they have nothing left on the ‘conventional’ tank so to speak. 

That leaves 3 options. Diplomatic efforts, tactical nukes and strategic nukes. 

Now I am not suggesting for a second that we are at imminent danger of actual nukes being chucked around. 

However, the diplomatic efforts will be aided if the west believes that Putin is willing to press some buttons. 

For me the timing of this is interesting. Specifically in relation to the retreat from Kherson and the G20. 

I don’t thing we will necessarily see an actual physical escalation. However the ramping of posturing, rhetoric and game playing from politburo will defo up its game next few weeks.


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 15, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



*Czech parliament passes Russian 'terrorist' motion*





Rob Cameron
Reporting from Prague
The Czech parliament has passed a motion describing the current Russian administration as "terrorist".
The motion singled out widespread attacks on Ukrainian civilian targets and key energy infrastructure.
During the vote, 129 of 156 MPs present in the 200-seat chamber approved the motion, which means several dozen opposition MPs are likely to have voted with the government.
The motion was opposed by all 14 MPs in the far-right SPD party.
The Czech centre-right government is one of Ukraine's most stalwart supporters, and was among the first to send heavy weapons - including tanks - to the Ukrainian armed forces.

Was on BBC earlier
		
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Cheers. 

Unsure of what actual changes to foreign policy that will unlock though. 

Seems more a gesture of support for Ukraine akin to UN members turning their backs on Vasily Nebenzya when this first kicked off. 

Empty gestures. 

Which tbh. I’d prefer over actual action. 

It’s in our best interests to let this thing fizzle out naturally as opposed to getting drawn in.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Was probably the Ukraine by accident. No WW3 today gents.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Was probably the Ukraine by accident. No WW3 today gents.
		
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Frank Gardner has spoken, you can trust Frank. A less stressful morning than it could have been. (Without underplaying the local tragedy for the families in Poland)


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Frank Gardner has spoken, you can trust Frank. A less stressful morning than it could have been. (Without underplaying the local tragedy for the families in Poland)
		
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BBC yesterday was appalling, jumping to conclusions without fact checking anything. Forever trying to make news instead of report facts.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			BBC yesterday was appalling, jumping to conclusions without fact checking anything. Forever trying to make news instead of report facts.
		
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I know it's the thing to bash the BBC on here, but pretty much everyone was calling it as the Russians.


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## IanM (Nov 16, 2022)

Too many news reports have the word "could" in them.   That's when it ceases to be reporting, and becomes opinion.


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I know it's the thing to bash the BBC on here, but pretty much everyone was calling it as the Russians.
		
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Not bashing but I would imagine the piece caused a lot of anxiety among those who think Armageddon is approaching. Should have been more balanced IMO.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 16, 2022)

Biden now saying its unlikely the missile was launched from Russia. Assume thats just his way of trying to calm things.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 16, 2022)

Saying this morning that it was an anti missile defence missile.
But I assume for the anti missile defence system to deploy there must have been a Russian missile present.
Or has it malfunctioned.?


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## Smiffy (Nov 16, 2022)

I just wish they'd get it all over and done with...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			BBC yesterday was appalling, jumping to conclusions without fact checking anything. Forever trying to make news instead of report facts.
		
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Did the BBC not simply report what coming from a US source; and the same reporting as every other news outlet.  But hey.  For some it seems that it’s always open season to shoot the BBC messenger…As it happens I first heard of the incident on LBC and reported just as reported on BBC. The endless ‘any opportunity’ BBC bashing on here is supremely tiresome.

That aside, any anti-missile air defence system that the Ukraine will have will likely be British or US…not sure if the French or Germans have supplied any of theirs.


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did the BBC not simply report what coming from a US source; and the same reporting as every other news outlet.  But hey.  For some it seems that it’s always open season to shoot the BBC messenger…As it happens I first heard of the incident on LBC and reported just as reported on BBC. The endless ‘any opportunity’ BBC bashing on here is supremely tiresome.

That aside, any anti-missile air defence system that the Ukraine will have will likely be British or US…not sure if the French or Germans have supplied any of theirs.
		
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Again I repeat, I’m not bashing the BBC just suggesting that they should be careful in their language how they report things. Just over an hour after the strike a web site that is monitored by the BBC was reporting that it was likely an anti air defense missile had been the cause of the missile strike.

Ukraine currently use the S-300 air Defence missile, the same as Russia and as they were under attack from over 90 cruise missiles it’s always a chance that one will miss the target and what goes up, must come down.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Again I repeat, I’m not bashing the BBC just suggesting that they should be careful in their language how they report things. Just over an hour after the strike a web site that is monitored by the BBC was reporting that it was likely an anti air defense missile had been the cause of the missile strike.

Ukraine currently use the S-300 air Defence missile, the same as Russia and as they were under attack from over 90 cruise missiles it’s always a chance that one will miss the target and what goes up, must come down.
		
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You said..

BBC yesterday was appalling, jumping to conclusions without fact checking anything. Forever trying to make news instead of report facts

if thats not having a go I don't know what is!


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You said..

BBC yesterday was appalling, jumping to conclusions without fact checking anything. Forever trying to make news instead of report facts

if thats not having a go I don't know what is!
		
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Ok, I get it, having a go at one item on the BBC is considered knocking the BBC. Letter of apology dispatched  to the director general immediately.

WASHINGTON (AP) — US officials: Initial findings suggest missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at incoming Russian missile.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Ok, I get it, having a go at one item on the BBC is considered knocking the BBC. Letter of apology dispatched  to the director general immediately.
		
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Far be it for me to go full foxholer but the use of forever suggests more than just dislike of this one instance.


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Far be it for me to go full foxholer but the use of forever suggests more than just dislike of this one instance.
		
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Busted, have to admit, for the more serious stuff I go to Al Jeezera


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Busted, have to admit, for the more serious stuff I go to Al Jeezera
		
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Fox news is my goto.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 16, 2022)

All news outlets are guilty of this Could, Maybe , might be culture.
They are scared incase someone else gets the scoop ahead of them.
Speculation has no place in a news bulletin it should be facts only.

Until they know the facts all they know is a missile landed in Poland killing people.
That’s all they should have said ,no speculation.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 16, 2022)

What the papers say about the missile strike…


Express. Harry and Meghan unaware of the blast as they stroll in a California park.

Star. Missile was aimed at London. Millions will die with the next one.

Mail. Contestants in the jungle in horror over bomb but today's trial by bear poo goes ahead.

Guardian. Bomb was fired by the Consevatives.

Scottish Herald. Would never have happened if Scotland was independent.

Independent. The blast proves we need to take in more asylum seekers.

Sun. Putin's mistress in saucy underwear tells us how the 'Phwoar' is going.

*Stolen from another site.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			What the papers say about the missile strike…


Express. Harry and Meghan unaware of the blast as they stroll in a California park.

Star. Missile was aimed at London. Millions will die with the next one.

Mail. Contestants in the jungle in horror over bomb but today's trial by bear poo goes ahead.

Guardian. Bomb was fired by the Consevatives.

Scottish Herald. Would never have happened if Scotland was independent.

Independent. The blast proves we need to take in more asylum seekers.

Sun. Putin's mistress in saucy underwear tells us how the 'Phwoar' is going.

*Stolen from another site.
		
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Not so sure that the (Glasgow) Herald would take that line…😉


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Far be it for me to go full   ̶f̶o̶x̶h̶o̶l̶e̶r̶ Ian_George but the use of forever suggests more than just dislike of this one instance.
		
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Edited 😉😉😁


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			Edited 😉😉😁
		
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😂😅🤣


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

I've never understood the reasoning behind Putin's invasion - save to 'retake' the Russian speaking areas he now occupies and to secure Crimea! I doubt Russian troops were ever particularly motivated to go further!
While capturing Kherson was a huge positive for Ukraine, it actually now poses exactly the same problem for Ukrainian progress that caused the Russian loss - logistics! With supply lines now available, I don't see any significant movement, by either side, from their current positions! Russia might be satisfied with that, but I'm certain Ukraine won't be! I wouldn't be surprised if the major actual conflict now moves further North!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2022)

If Russia hadn't invaded an independent free country then there wouldn't be a need for Ukraine to fire defensive missiles so this wouldn't have happened. Russia are to blame.

Regarding the BBC; they are constantly making repetitive sensational comments that are designed to promote bad news.  They hardly ever report any good news even though there is much of it available.   The sooner the licence fee is scrapped and they go subscription the better, even better than that their news is hived off as they do produce some good drama programmes.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If Russia hadn't invaded an independent free country then there wouldn't be a need for Ukraine to fire defensive missiles so this wouldn't have happened. Russia are to blame.

Regarding the BBC; they are constantly making repetitive sensational comments that are designed to promote bad news.  They hardly ever report any good news even though there is much of it available.   The sooner the licence fee is scrapped and they go subscription the better, even better than that their news is hived off as they do produce some good drama programmes.
		
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Let it go, Brexit has been and gone. 😂


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Let it go, Brexit has been and gone. 😂
		
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Brexit?  What's that got to do with it 🙄


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2022)

Come on, a pro Brexit forum and it's massive hate of the BBC and it's perceived pro EU bias.
It's actually pretty funny.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Come on, a pro Brexit forum and it's massive hate of the BBC and it's perceived pro EU bias.
It's actually pretty funny.
		
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Pro Brexit Forum, Massive hate of the BBC,  Perceived pro EU bias?

😂


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## Swango1980 (Nov 16, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If Russia hadn't invaded an independent free country then there wouldn't be a need for Ukraine to fire defensive missiles so this wouldn't have happened. Russia are to blame.

Regarding the BBC; they are constantly making repetitive sensational comments that are designed to promote bad news.  They hardly ever report any good news even though there is much of it available.   The sooner the licence fee is scrapped and they go subscription the better, even better than that their news is hived off as they do produce some good drama programmes.
		
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If you want good news stories, tune into the One Show.

Every main news program I watch is all doom and gloom.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Regarding the BBC; they are constantly making repetitive sensational comments that are designed to promote bad news.  They hardly ever report any good news even though there is much of it available.   The sooner the licence fee is scrapped and they go subscription the better, even better than that their news is hived off as they do produce some good drama programmes.
		
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Don't watch it then! You might not need to pay the license fee! Though if you watch their drama programs, you will.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Don't watch it then! You might not need to pay the license fee! Though if you watch their drama programs, you will.
		
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I have stopped watching their news and I have to pay the licence fee if I watch other channels.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you want good news stories, tune into the One Show.

Every main news program I watch is all doom and gloom.
		
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I have watched the One Show, it's better but what I would prefer is a news channel that just reported the news without opinion. I am quite capable of forming my own opinions.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Let it go, Brexit has been and gone. 😂
		
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Only the decision! The implementation is still nowhere near done!


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## theoneandonly (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Only the decision! The implementation is still nowhere near done!
		
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Oven ready mate 😂😂😂


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I have watched the One Show, it's better but what I would prefer is a news channel that just reported the news without opinion. I am quite capable of forming my own opinions.
		
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I very much doubt that you are going to find one of those! I'm of the same mind as you wrt 'just the news and I'll form my own opinion' btw, though I might not end up with the same one as you do. I happen to think BBC does as good a job, if not better, as any of them in that regard (or at least being somewhere near 'balanced'). The 'problem' I see that BBC has is that, by its Charter, it's required to give coverage to groups, sides or issues that likely don't actually 'deserve' it! So the problem isn't the Beeb's, but the Rules under which The Beeb runs! Those rules do have benefits though - perhaps ironically - for precisely the same reason!


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## backwoodsman (Nov 17, 2022)

Brexit and BBC in one thread. Oh joy !!


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## Asian Dawn (Nov 17, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			What the papers say about the missile strike…


Express. Harry and Meghan unaware of the blast as they stroll in a California park.

Star. Missile was aimed at London. Millions will die with the next one.

Mail. Contestants in the jungle in horror over bomb but today's trial by bear poo goes ahead.

Guardian. Bomb was fired by the Consevatives.

Scottish Herald. Would never have happened if Scotland was independent.

Independent. The blast proves we need to take in more asylum seekers.

Sun. Putin's mistress in saucy underwear tells us how the 'Phwoar' is going.

*Stolen from another site.
		
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How Golf Monthly would have reported it.

Fed up with your missiles slicing off target.  We will fix your slice.  Buy this issue and follow our step-by-step guide to improving your accuracy.

Followed by:-
The new Cobra XXXX Missile - hit more targets with our revolutionary new carbon-titanium-vibranium face.


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If Russia hadn't invaded an independent free country then there wouldn't be a need for Ukraine to fire defensive missiles so this wouldn't have happened. Russia are to blame.
		
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Seems like something out of a Fawlty Towers skit! But certainly, if Russia hadn't fired missiles at Ukraine, the defensive action wouldn't have been needed.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I very much doubt that you are going to find one of those! I'm of the same mind as you wrt 'just the news and *I'll form my own opinion' btw, though I might not end up with the same one as you do*. I happen to think BBC does as good a job, if not better, as any of them in that regard (or at least being somewhere near 'balanced'). The 'problem' I see that BBC has is that, by its Charter, it's required to give coverage to groups, sides or issues that likely don't actually 'deserve' it! So the problem isn't the Beeb's, but the Rules under which The Beeb runs! Those rules do have benefits though - perhaps ironically - for precisely the same reason!
		
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Have I suggested you should hold the same opinion as me ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Have I suggested you should hold the same opinion as me ?
		
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No, but I wasn't suggesting you had, nor should! Quite the opposite in fact! Recipients of 'just the News' can apply their own weightings (or even bias) to form their opinion.


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## JRS7 (Dec 3, 2022)

Russia, come at me bro.


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