# DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly



## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

....... And before anyone says they have - no they havnt!


MashleyR7 and I played two really nice guys from away in the HDID pairs yesterday and we noticed after a couple of holes that both were using their IPhones as DMD's. Now personally I wouldn't care if the app actually told them which club to hit with and and as we were 5 up after 5 and won 8 and 7 we chose to ignore the matter anyway.

I stood next to one of the pair on the last tee and he used it and commented on a yardage and I politely pointed out the rule. They both said that their club allow them and its a personal matter of trust whether they use the compass etc. I said that I had been on the golf committee when they were introduced and that their club didnt have a say in which DMD's could or couldn't be used only whether they were  allowed or not on their course and that the rules of golf specified legality of certain devices. 

It was clear that the issue could escalate, I suggested they check the rules and said no more. Why oh why don't the R and A deal decisively with matter one way or another and allow any device, or, state firmly which ones can't be used? I, for one, don't want the bad feeling directed at me for pointing this out given how many times I see the rule broken.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

It has been addressed though, this from the R&A...




			The emergence of multi-functional devices that can provide additional information to golfers (that could, for example, further help the golfer to determine how to make his next stroke or that could otherwise affect his playing of the game) is a relatively new development. For the avoidance of doubt, the governing bodies do not believe that it is necessary or appropriate for the Rules of Golf to allow all such devices. The following points clarify how the rules will be applied: 

Distance-measuring devices (i.e., devices whose primary function is to measure distance) may continue to be used only if the local rule is in effect.
When the local rule is in effect, distance-measuring devices must be limited to measuring distance only. The use of a distance-measuring device would constitute a breach of the Rules if:
The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc), or;
The device has some other non-conforming feature, including, but not limited to, recommendations that might assist the player in making a stroke or in his play, such as club selection, type of shot to be played (e.g., punch shot, pitch and run, etc.), or green reading (i.e., a recommended line of putt), or other advice-related matters. However, it is permissible to use such a device, during a stipulated round, to access distance information from previous rounds that has been processed prior to the commencement of the current round (e.g., a chart of all club yardages), or;
The device has the capability to assist in calculating the effective distance between two points (i.e., distance after considering gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors).
There would be a breach of the Rules even if all of the above features can be switched off or disengaged, and in fact are switched off or disengaged.
Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:
The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters â€“ see Decision 14-3/16.
When the local rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to â€œdistance onlyâ€ and the device does not have any other â€œnon-conformingâ€ features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply.
		
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So basically if the device has non-conforming features whether used or not, they can't be allowed under local rule.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2013)

The mighty Hawk covers it. But just to add another reason why the decision on multi-functional devices has been made. Various apps come out at different times, and to say yes to an iphone type device today might mean saying no to it tomorrow because of a new app.


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

I was under the assumption the R &A issued a flow chart to clarify things last year?
Clubs cannot decide to ignore a rule they don't agree with.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Should have added, what actually needs to happen is for golf club committee's to understand the R&A's directive and implement it accordingly rather than making up their own local rules because the don't agree with the R&A - that is where the confusion comes from, not the R&A


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			I was under the assumption the R &A issued a flow chart to clarify things last year?
Clubs cannot decide to ignore a rule they don't agree with.
		
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You mean this...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You mean this...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

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That's the one, :thup:


it's up on the board at the club and GM printed last year after it was issued.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Should have added, what actually needs to happen is for golf club committee's to understand the R&A's directive and implement it accordingly rather than making up their own local rules because the don't agree with the R&A - that is where the confusion comes from, not the R&A
		
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This is more of an issue than many people think.
As per the OP, the message obviously isn't getting through to clubs and it's not restricted to the DMD question
How many times do you hear that a single player has no standing or that you can't rake a bunker at all until you've played..?
Rule changes need to be communicated more vigourously, not just publishing a new rule book every few years - lets face it,  not many people read it cover to cover, the plot is thin and the characterisation sucks. It's simply not a good read.

The R&A have to do more to educate clubs who have to do more to educate golfers...
Until then these problems will persist.
Anyone seen a non-conforming driver recently?
I have.......


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

So as long as I taker the compass app off the iphone (not sure why that would help anyway), its OK to use the Swing by Swing app.

You should be able to use anything you want IMO. As long as it doesnt hold up play..


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			This is more of an issue than many people think.
As per the OP, the message obviously isn't getting through to clubs and it's not restricted to the DMD question
How many times do you hear that a single player has no standing or that you can't rake a bunker at all until you've played..?
Rule changes need to be communicated more vigourously, not just publishing a new rule book every few years - lets face it,  not many people read it cover to cover, the plot is thin and the characterisation sucks. It's simply not a good read.

The R&A have to do more to educate clubs who have to do more to educate golfers...
Until then these problems will persist.
Anyone seen a non-conforming driver recently?
I have.......
		
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You could also argue that if you are acting on your clubs committee in the area of rules, then you should make it your business to understand the changes and communicate the important changes to the members. You shouldn't be making up local rules as you wish.

The R&A can't be expected to know who has an illegal driver, it would be difficult for your club to check it. Also, no matter how hard they try, there will always be people who take no notice. It is up to all of us to enforce the rules, but having committee's making up their own simply doesn't help.


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## davidy233 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			So as long as I taker the compass app off the iphone (not sure why that would help anyway), its OK to use the Swing by Swing app.

You should be able to use anything you want IMO. As long as it doesnt hold up play..
		
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Don't believe you can take the compass app of an iPhone

I've got Golfshot app on my iPhone which I use when on holiday for distances as i ain't paying Skycaddy Worldwide subscription for a couple of rounds a year - for competitions I use the Skycaddy.

Just play by the rules


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			So as long as I taker the compass app off the iphone (not sure why that would help anyway), its OK to use the Swing by Swing app.

You should be able to use anything you want IMO. As long as it doesnt hold up play..
		
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I thought they are saying you can't use any app/phone, whether you remove the compass or not....


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			This is more of an issue than many people think.
As per the OP, the message obviously isn't getting through to clubs and it's not restricted to the DMD question
How many times do you hear that a single player has no standing or that you can't rake a bunker at all until you've played..?
Rule changes need to be communicated more vigourously, not just publishing a new rule book every few years - lets face it,  not many people read it cover to cover, the plot is thin and the characterisation sucks. It's simply not a good read.

The R&A have to do more to educate clubs who have to do more to educate golfers...
Until then these problems will persist.
Anyone seen a non-conforming driver recently?
I have.......
		
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Exactly my point!

I know the rule as well as you guys, but, I see many people whipping out their phones on holes and its obvious that they aren't checking for missed calls. The EGU produced a guidance note on the matter that, for me, muddied the situation even more (taping over the non conforming parts when part of a trolley).

The rule is a mess, for the amateur knowing the wind direction and whether its going to rain in 10 minutes isn't going to improve their golf one jot - I say, make all devices ok for amateurs and then there will be no more problems and as a result the cost of golf will reduce as an app is generally cheaper than the cost of a specialist DMD.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

So your saying you can use a  Â£200 Garmin that gives accurate front middle and back and other distances, but I cant use a free app that just gives me a vague idea to the middle of the green.

And thats just because my phone can also tell me which way is north and whether its raining or not. Both things I can figure out for myself.

mmmmmmm  thats makes sense.


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

davidy233 said:



			Don't believe you can take the compass app of an iPhone

I've got Golfshot app on my iPhone which I use when on holiday for distances as i ain't paying Skycaddy Worldwide subscription for a couple of rounds a year - for competitions I use the Skycaddy.

Just play by the rules
		
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Your correct you can't take the compass off an iPhone it's not an app it's built in, in fact the vast majority of smart phones have in built compass,  but it would be a legal minefield to ban all phone apps outright.


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			So your saying you can use a  Â£200 Garmin that gives accurate front middle and back and other distances, but I cant use a free app that just gives me a vague idea to the middle of the green.

And thats just because my phone can also tell me which way is north and whether its raining or not. Both things I can figure out for myself.

mmmmmmm  thats makes sense.
		
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Yes exactly that!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			So your saying you can use a  Â£200 Garmin that gives accurate front middle and back and other distances, but I cant use a free app that just gives me a vague idea to the middle of the green.

And thats just because my phone can also tell me which way is north and whether its raining or not. Both things I can figure out for myself.

mmmmmmm  thats makes sense.
		
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No-one said it made sense, but it is the rule and until it is changed, it should be adhered to


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			So your saying you can use a  Â£200 Garmin that gives accurate front middle and back and other distances, but I cant use a free app that just gives me a vague idea to the middle of the green.

And thats just because my phone can also tell me which way is north and whether its raining or not. Both things I can figure out for myself.

mmmmmmm  thats makes sense.
		
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If you're on a tree lined course, with holes going in various directions, and its a grey day you won't know which way is north. Now if you've seen the weather forecast and know which way the wind is coming from, even though at ground level you can't feel it because of the trees, you will know which side of the green to aim for to allow for the wind.

In reality, for the vast majority of us hackers it doesn't make much odds what we know. However, it is a rule and you can't pick and choose which rules you follow and which rules to ignore.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

I will immedialtley DQ myself from every comp this year then...
:rofl:


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## gryffindor (Jun 27, 2013)

There may already be an app that does this - but assuming the phone knows exactly where you are on the course, and you tell it what club you hit each shot, over a period of time it can build up a database and then start offering info such as 'you have a 76% success rate of hitting that green from here with your 6 iron' or 'You end up out of bounds 43% of the time here - take a 3 wood!' 

Would this now mean the the phone is offering advice?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			I will immedialtley DQ myself from every comp this year then...
:rofl:
		
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Are there any other rules you break because you don't like them?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			You should be able to use anything you want IMO. As long as it doesnt hold up play..
		
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Or even simpler - just not allow any DMD in *competitive *golf.  The confusion and rule breaking that is going on (deliberate or through ignorance and exemplified in this brief thread) is actually a beyond a joke.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

Ok fella, I was trying to be mildy amusing on a fairly lighthearted matter IMO.

Wind your neck in. 

I would, and have never knowingly ignored, or broken a local or R+A rule just because I didnt agree with it.

And I will pull up every golfer I see using similar devices in comps from now on. Is that ok now..


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			Ok fella, I was trying to be mildy amusing on a fairly lighthearted matter IMO.

Wind your neck in. 

I would, and have never knowingly ignored, or broken a local or R+A rule just because I didnt agree with it.

And I will pull up every golfer I see using similar devices in comps from now on. Is that ok now..

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Apologies, it came accross that you weren't taking it seriously, my mistake.


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			Ok fella, I was trying to be mildy amusing on a fairly lighthearted matter IMO.

Wind your neck in. 
I would, and have never knowingly ignored, or broken a local or R+A rule just because I didnt agree with it.
And I will pull up every golfer I see using similar devices in comps from now on. Is that ok now..

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To be fair I read your post the same way missed the light hearted side and was just about to post similiar to hawkeye.


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## cookelad (Jun 27, 2013)

I still find it funny that the inbuilt compass make a phone illegal as a DMD when just about every course planner I've ever bought tells me which direction is North (forgetting my inbuilt compass - yes I can tell which way is approx North when surrounded by trees on a cloudy day) 

I use a Bushnell BTW so it makes no odds to me personally!


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## mefromhere (Jun 27, 2013)

Hi all, have been meaning to ask this question for a while but as the topic has come up now it seems the perfect time to ask. Is it against the rules to carry an actual compass with you on the course? As has been stated above, any yardage chart usually tells you which way it is anyway and if the scorecard has a layout of the course on the back then that usually does too!

As a secondary question, I have a phone that I am no longer using as a phone, so has no sim card in it and is therefore pretty useless for everything other than the GPS function still works. Could that now be classed as legal to use as it has no way of connecting to any temperature, wind, slope measuring device?


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or even simpler - just not allow any DMD in *competitive *golf.  The confusion and rule breaking that is going on (deliberate or through ignorance and exemplified in this brief thread) is actually a beyond a joke.
		
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I don't see why a dedicated DMD is any different to a yardage book which is allowed.


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2013)

mefromhere said:



			Hi all, have been meaning to ask this question for a while but as the topic has come up now it seems the perfect time to ask. Is it against the rules to carry an actual compass with you on the course? As has been stated above, any yardage chart usually tells you which way it is anyway and if the scorecard has a layout of the course on the back then that usually does too!

As a secondary question, I have a phone that I am no longer using as a phone, so has no sim card in it and is therefore pretty useless for everything other than the GPS function still works. Could that now be classed as legal to use as it has no way of connecting to any temperature, wind, slope measuring device?
		
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Welcome to the forum 

No you cant carry a compass, falls under rule 14-3 (artifical devices)

No again on the phone, the fact that it has no Sim is irrelevant to the rule, all that is important is the functionality that is in the phone (ie if it has a compass built in)


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or even simpler - just not allow any DMD in *competitive *golf.  The confusion and rule breaking that is going on (deliberate or through ignorance and exemplified in this brief thread) is actually a beyond a joke.
		
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Or even simpler just allow DMDs, including gps, phones, lasers etc within the rules of golf unless outlawed in the competition rules


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2013)

chrisd said:



			....... And before anyone says they have - no they havnt!


MashleyR7 and I played two really nice guys from away in the HDID pairs yesterday and we noticed after a couple of holes that both were using their IPhones as DMD's. Now personally I wouldn't care if the app actually told them which club to hit with and and as we were 5 up after 5 and won 8 and 7 we chose to ignore the matter anyway.

*I stood next to one of the pair on the last tee and he used it and commented on a yardage and I politely pointed out the rule.* They both said that their club allow them and its a personal matter of trust whether they use the compass etc. I said that I had been on the golf committee when they were introduced and that their club didnt have a say in which DMD's could or couldn't be used only whether they were  allowed or not on their course and that the rules of golf specified legality of certain devices. 

It was clear that the issue could escalate, I suggested they check the rules and said no more. Why oh why don't the R and A deal decisively with matter one way or another and allow any device, or, state firmly which ones can't be used? I, for one, don't want the bad feeling directed at me for pointing this out given how many times I see the rule broken.
		
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I trust you enforced the appropriate penalty then!

Or did you agree to waive it!

Had you continued to ignore the breach until the match was over (maybe it was when you raised the issue) then I believe no problem.

However, you should definitely get the message across that phones with DMDs are almost certain to not conform to the rules! I don't believe any do, and doubt they will.


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## Colin L (Jun 27, 2013)

fundy said:



			Welcome to the forum 

No you cant carry a compass, falls under rule 14-3 (artifical devices)
		
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To be exact, there is nothing in 14-3 to prevent you from _carrying_ a compass.   if you used it to assist you in your play or for gauging conditions that could affect your play,  only then you are in breach of 14-3.    .

I do question what is so complicated in the DMD matter and wonder if that flowchart makes the business seem more complex than it is.

3 steps to simple understanding:

1. *Rule 14-3* clearly tells us using a DMD is not permitted. 
2.*Decision 14-3/0.5* clearly tells  a Committee can introduce a local rule permitting the use of a DMD provided it is a DMD and nothing else.  
3.* "Nothing else"*  means if there is any other function on a device that might assist a player it can't be used to measure distance even if the local rule is in place.


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2013)

Colin L said:



			To be exact, there is nothing in 14-3 to prevent you from _carrying_ a compass.   if you used it to assist you in your play or for gauging conditions that could affect your play,  only then you are in breach of 14-3.    .

I do question what is so complicated in the DMD matter and wonder if that flowchart makes the business seem more complex than it is.

3 steps to simple understanding:

1. *Rule 14-3* clearly tells us using a DMD is not permitted. 
2.*Decision 14-3/0.5* clearly tells  a Committee can introduce a local rule permitting the use of a DMD provided it is a DMD and nothing else.  
3.* "Nothing else"*  means if there is any other function on a device that might assist a player it can't be used to measure distance even if the local rule is in place.
		
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But surely this is exactly why people get confused. I can carry a compass on its own and be trusted not to use it, but if I carry it within my mobile phone then I clearly cant be trusted to not use it as it then renders my mobile phone dmd as non conforming to the local rule


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2013)

Colin L said:



			I do question what is so complicated in the DMD matter and wonder if that flowchart makes the business seem more complex than it is.
		
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The queries I have about the R&A ruling - which I fully accept btw. -are these.

What's the difference between having a compass available (but illegal) and checking with the one on a course guide - and the Professional ones I have all have the 'compass direction' included on the hole details.

How is the exact temperature or wind speed, as opposed to the general feel of these, at the point a shot about to be played really going to have an influence on a decision about a shot that is likely to travel 100 to 300 yard where conditions can, and almost certainly will, be will be different!

It strikes me as rather a cop-out, protection of some businesses and an attempt to limit the (laudable maybe) encroachment of other 'devices' into the game.

It' the widespread and cheap availability of DMD software that's highlighting the issue.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

My new app is telling me I am 35.4 miles from the centre of the first green I will be playing tomorrow morning!!!

And its a 'friendly' society type stableford comp. So I think i wil be able to use it without upsetting the 'comittee'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I don't see why a dedicated DMD is any different to a yardage book which is allowed.
		
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Well I do.  And if you think of the practical application of DMDs and yardage books you'll soon see the difference.

My point in this thread is that with all the apparent confusion and rule-breaking going on shouldn't clubs just state in their local rule that DMDs can be used on the course for casual play but *not *in competitive play.  That way there can be no rule breaking and no issue and no concern or upset being caused.  Simple.

If and probably when the rules in respect of DMDs are nailed and fully understood, then that rule can be relaxed to include use of DMDs in comps - though I would disagree with it being so relaxed.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I do.  And if you think of the practical application of DMDs and yardage books you'll soon see the difference.

My point in this thread is that with all the apparent confusion and rule-breaking going on shouldn't clubs just state in their local rule that DMDs can be used on the course for casual play but *not *in competitive play.  That way there can be no rule breaking and no issue and no concern or upset being caused.  Simple.
		
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Or just say only dedicated DMDs are allowed during comp, that would be equally simple.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

fundy said:



			Or even simpler just allow DMDs, including gps, phones, lasers etc within the rules of golf unless outlawed in the competition rules
		
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The rules bods will not want to open up shot assessment to a technology free-for-all - even for casual golf - as that will simply be the precursor to demands that the technology be used in comps.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Or just say only dedicated DMDs are allowed during comp, that would be equally simple.
		
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But you have to define 'dedicated' - and as with any definition therein lie a can of worms.  That said - you are going in a better direction with this suggestion.

However until things are sorted out the simplest and obvious way is simply to say no to any DMD in competitive golf. Nothing could be simpler.

Note that I'm specific about comps - I have no issues at all on their use in casual/friendly/practice golf.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I do.  And if you think of the practical application of DMDs and yardage books you'll soon see the difference.

My point in this thread is that with all the apparent confusion and rule-breaking going on shouldn't clubs just state in their local rule that DMDs can be used on the course for casual play but *not *in competitive play.  That way there can be no rule breaking and no issue and no concern or upset being caused.  Simple.

If and probably when the rules in respect of DMDs are nailed and fully understood, then that rule can be relaxed to include use of DMDs in comps - though I would disagree with it being so relaxed.
		
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You'd be in the minority at every club I know of and obviously were at yours - for the reason you quoted.

Yes it would be simpler - and is within a Club's power to do so. But they choose not to (again, for the reason you quoted). In a non-competitive round, I'd have no issue with someone using a phone DMD app. In a Strokeplay comp, I'd point out the potential breach. In a Match, I'd actually ignore the breach - as I'm entitled to do! I'd point out the potential problem afterwards though!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But you have to define 'dedicated' - and as with any definition therein lie a can of worms.  That said - you are going in a better direction with this suggestion.

However until things are sorted out the simplest and obvious way is simply to say no to any DMD in competitive golf. Nothing could be simpler.

Note that I'm specific about comps - I have no issues at all on their use in casual/friendly/practice golf.
		
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It would be fairly easy to define a dedicated GPS I would have thought, anything that is designed for the sole purpose of providing yardages on golf courses and does nothing else (except maybe tell the time). it would also not be hard for the R&A to have an approved list as they do with drivers.


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I do.  And if you think of the practical application of DMDs and yardage books you'll soon see the difference.
		
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I'm sorry, there is no difference to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			You'd be in the minority at every club I know of and obviously were at yours - for the reason you quoted.

Yes it would be simpler - and is within a Club's power to do so. But they choose not to (again, for the reason you quoted). In a non-competitive round, I'd have no issue with someone using a phone DMD app. In a Strokeplay comp, I'd point out the potential breach. In a Match, I'd actually ignore the breach - as I'm entitled to do! I'd point out the potential problem afterwards though!
		
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Not sure what reason I quoted?

I know I am in the minority but that doesn't make me wrong.  However I accept DMDs cannot be uninvented and so are here to stay.  And I accept that use of DMDs in competitions will in general be allowed.  

However if I have to accept these things - the latter in particular - I want to know that whatever is being used is being used within the rules.  At the moment this is clearly not the case and rule breaches are happening all the time.  Until there is complete clarity and understanding I do not think it unreasonable for a clear and obvious source of rule breaking to be removed from competitive golf.   It's what you'd do in most other spheres of life.  If there was a risk of things going badly wrong through using something you didnt really understand, and didn't actually need to use - you either wouldn't use it or would be prevented from using it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I'm sorry, there is no difference to me.
		
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OK - so against a strong wind I slice my tee shot miles to the far side of an adjacent fairway and my line to the hole is across trees and all sorts of rubbish.  I have never been there before and so have no idea of distance.  Explain to me how a DMD and yardage chart can equally help me sort out my distance to go to the flag.

[Post POST edit] Darn!  Even when I have admitted defeat I can't stop myself rising to the bait


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The rules bods will not want to open up shot assessment to a technology free-for-all - even for casual golf - as that will simply be the precursor to demands that the technology be used in comps.
		
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That would be fine by me tbh

I watched the Europro tour at Collingtree last week, DMDs were permitted. So much more refreshing to see how quickly these pros got a numbers pulled a club and hit it compared to the main tour pros who have to refer to a yardage book and the caddie 4 or 5 times before they can decide what to hit. If it speeds up the game, which at that level it apparently seems to, then Im all for it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

fundy said:



			That would be fine by me tbh
		
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So use of ANY and ALL technology would be OK - squinty thinking IMO.


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## davidy233 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			My new app is telling me I am 35.4 miles from the centre of the first green I will be playing tomorrow morning!!!

And its a 'friendly' society type stableford comp. So I think i wil be able to use it without upsetting the 'comittee'

Click to expand...

I can beat that - my Golfshot app tells me I'm 1,362 miles from the first tee at Penina- the next course I'll play using it  (in September) - loaded it up yesterday to have a look at the overview of the holes - sad but true :mmm:

Skycaddy is charging up for my match at Monifieth tonight


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so against a strong wind I slice my tee shot miles to the far side of an adjacent fairway and my line to the hole is across trees and all sorts of rubbish.  I have never been there before and so have no idea of distance.  Explain to me how a DMD and yardage chart can equally help me sort out my distance to go to the flag.
		
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If you don't have that distance on your yardage chart that's your own fault.  You're allowed to measure it if you like, if you choose not to that's your own decision.

As I said, absolutely no difference to me.  You can have as much info in a yardage book that you get from a DMD.  It's the same info you get using both.


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## Colin L (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Until there is complete clarity and understanding ....
		
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Is this not the crux of the matter.  There _is_ complete clarity (what is not clear in Decision 14-3/0.5?) but there is far from complete understanding.  Apart from the fact that this could be said of most rules, this one seems particularly prone to confusion mainly, I suspect because people make it over-complicated in an effort to push the boundaries, rather than there being an inherent difficulty in understanding  the basic matter - if allowed by local rule, you can only measure distance with a device that only measures distance. Nothing else that could   help your play.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 27, 2013)

fundy said:



			But surely this is exactly why people get confused. I can carry a compass on its own and be trusted not to use it, but if I carry it within my mobile phone then I clearly cant be trusted to not use it as it then renders my mobile phone dmd as non conforming to the local rule
		
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you clearly aren't confused, and have explained it al in one small paragraph - the rule's clear, people (who want to use mobiles as DMDs) don't like it; completely understandable.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

Surprise, surprise, SwingsitlikeHogan is against DMD's.......get over it. DMD's are electronic yardage books. If you're 70 yards offline you can use your book to work out how far you have to go, it just takes longer than using a DMD.

The message isn't particularly vague, it just seems to get interpretted incorrectly somehow. That and Clubs don't push it down the throats of Members...


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so against a strong wind I slice my tee shot miles to the far side of an adjacent fairway and my line to the hole is across trees and all sorts of rubbish.  I have never been there before and so have no idea of distance.  Explain to me how a DMD and yardage chart can equally help me sort out my distance to go to the flag.

[Post POST edit] Darn!  Even when I have admitted defeat I can't stop myself rising to the bait 

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Just because you are out-numbered doesn't mean the argument isn't reasonable! 

Euro-Pro Tour has very few proper caddies so player does all he distance calcs etc. as well as Cclub selection and hitting the shot. DMDs were found to significantly improve Pace of Play in that tour. 

As for the situation you describe...You are entitled to measure by any method - even by pacint to a point that is on the course guide. That is exactly what Tour Caddies do! You could also move/estimate to an equivalent place on the correct hole and get yardage from there. DMD simply speeds up the process. Like Lasers, your approach depends on actually having a 'view' of the target - albeit in your head!


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## Region3 (Jun 27, 2013)

If the R&A were to suddenly allow smartphones to be used as DMD's, very soon afterwards you might have apps that collected information from weather stations and coupled it with it's own information from the compass and GPS signal, to tell you exactly how far you need a club for allowing for wind, temperature and elevation change.

Then they would have to ban it again.


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## Mungoscorner (Jun 27, 2013)

I have an app on my phone that i use for practice rounds, it does nothing more than tell me the yardage to front, middle, back of green, and to certain hazards on the course (bunkers, ditche's etc)
To be quite honest i don't have a spare Â£200 rattling around in my golf bag that i can use to buy a dedicated DMD, which is why i use my phone.
As for the argument about the potential to use other features on the phone to assist, i thought golf was a game of trust ? Maybe we should ban all comps that aren't drawn, maybe we should never allow anybody to look for there ball alone, maybe we should have a scrutineer at the first tee on every course checking the grooves on players clubs ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

ger147 said:



			If you don't have that distance on your yardage chart that's your own fault.  You're allowed to measure it if you like, if you choose not to that's your own decision.
		
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Well that statement rather proves my point - as it's my own fault if I don't go out on a course and for each hole have paced out the distances to the flag from every point I could be off the tee.

I do wish that golfers using DMDs would stop being in denial about this and just admit that DMDs give them an advantage over players not using one.  Just admit it.  

I have accepted that as Canute could not stop the tide coming in I cannot stop the waves of DMDs coming to golf.  I just want them to be used in accordance with the rules.  Until that situation can be reached without too much disagrement about what is and what isn't allowed - then just not permit their use in comps.  

BTW DMDs would not be BANNED from comps because the default in the rules is that they *are *BANNED.  A Local Rule can ALLOW.  So just limit the scope of the Local Rule to non-competition golf for club competitions.  I'm OK with them for Open comps.


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that statement rather proves my point - as it's my own fault if I don't go out on a course and for each hole have paced out the distances to the flag from every point I could be off the tee.
		
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It doesn't - your yardage chart and DMD both can be used to tell you how far you are from the hole.  All DMD's do is save time during a round for everyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Surprise, surprise, SwingsitlikeHogan is against DMD's.......get over it. DMD's are electronic yardage books. If you're 70 yards offline you can use your book to work out how far you have to go, it just takes longer than using a DMD.
		
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I have accepted it.  But when challenged I will state my point of view - DMDs are electronic yardage books in theory but not in practice.  That said I accept their use is beneficial in casual golf or Open competitions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Region3 said:



			If the R&A were to suddenly allow smartphones to be used as DMD's, very soon afterwards you might have apps that collected information from weather stations and coupled it with it's own information from the compass and GPS signal, to tell you exactly how far you need a club for allowing for wind, temperature and elevation change.

Then they would have to ban it again.
		
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I like your thinking - straight not squinty


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

A very short excerpt from the joint R&A/USGA statement on Measuring Devices:

"Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game."

A link to the full statement below:
http://www.randa.org/en/equipment/e...er/joint-statement-on-electronic-devices.aspx


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			To be quite honest i don't have a spare Â£200 rattling around in my golf bag that i can use to buy a dedicated DMD
		
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I am afraid that you will find that this reasoning holds no water.  You play golf - you buy golf clubs - you may be a member of a golf club - you can afford a DMD.


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you enforced the appropriate penalty then!

Or did you agree to waive it!

Had you continued to ignore the breach until the match was over (maybe it was when you raised the issue) then I believe no problem.

However, you should definitely get the message across that phones with DMDs are almost certain to not conform to the rules! I don't believe any do, and doubt they will.
		
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We realised about 3 holes in that they were both using Iphones and decided to ignore the fact. I only mentioned the breach of rules on the 18th hole after we had won 8 and 7. They didn't agree that it was wrong and I just assured them that I was fully acquainted with the rule and that maybe they should check again. 

Like most, they seemed to confuse, being agreed by local rule the use of DMD's, that switching off or not using the offending  elements on the phone made their use ok and that everyone at their club used them in comps!I won't play them again so it's no skin off my nose if they refuse to believe the rule. 

That seems the major problem, knowledge of the rules in some cases is so scant that even those who know more than most are often not believed.


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## Mungoscorner (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am afraid that you will find that this reasoning holds no water.  You play golf - you buy golf clubs - you may be a member of a golf club - you can afford a DMD.
		
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Well my clubs are ancient, and i haven't bought anything equipment wise in years.
Being a member/paying a membership of a golf club along with comp fee's each week is one of the reasons why i have no spare cash.
A mortgage, wife, 3 kids, car, bills etc etc etc tends to bite into my budget. Its obvious that there are plenty of forummers who spend a fortune on there chosen pastime, i am not one of them, and i certainly cannot afford a DMD.
Either ban them all and revert to yardage books, or allow the use of phone apps alongside dedicated DMD's.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

What a crass presumptious statement that is. (edit to add, ive just checked your green fees, now I understand). Thankfully Golf is far all and not just you lot!

You play golf therefore you have a spare Â£200...

My membership cost me Â£60. My clubs a few quid more...

My phone cost me less and the app that does the same as the garmins cost a few quid.

Actually I could afford it but dont see the need.

I will carry on using it as intended, a yardage indicator and scorecard. I will never gain advantage by using any other app on it at the same time. If thats bending the rules then tough.

You will never play at the club I play at anyway as it is far beneath you....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Well my clubs are ancient, and i haven't bought anything equipment wise in years.
Being a member/paying a membership of a golf club along with comp fee's each week is one of the reasons why i have no spare cash.
A mortgage, wife, 3 kids, car, bills etc etc etc tends to bite into my budget. Its obvious that there are plenty of forummers who spend a fortune on there chosen pastime, i am not one of them, and i certainly cannot afford a DMD.
Either ban them all and revert to yardage books, or allow the use of phone apps alongside dedicated DMD's.
		
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Aye - and there's the rub.  It's the use of phones and phone apps that's causing the problems.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			What a crass presumptious statement that is. (edit to add, ive just checked your green fees, now I understand). Thankfully Golf is far all and not just you lot!

You play golf therefore you have a spare Â£200...

My membership cost me Â£60. My clubs a few quid more...

My phone cost me less and the app that does the same as the garmins cost a few quid.

Actually I could afford it but dont see the need.

I will carry on using it as intended, a yardage indicator and scorecard. I will never gain advantage by using any other app on it at the same time. If thats bending the rules then tough.

You will never play at the club I play at anyway as it is far beneath you....
		
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Sorry jack_bfc - I am only repeating what I have been told by more than one forummer when I said I couldn't justify spending Â£200 on a DMD.  They are not my words.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			What a crass presumptious statement that is. (edit to add, ive just checked your green fees, now I understand). Thankfully Golf is far all and not just you lot!

You play golf therefore you have a spare Â£200...

My membership cost me Â£60. My clubs a few quid more...

My phone cost me less and the app that does the same as the garmins cost a few quid.

Actually I could afford it but dont see the need.

I will carry on using it as intended, a yardage indicator and scorecard. I will never gain advantage by using any other app on it at the same time. If thats bending the rules then tough.

You will never play at the club I play at anyway as it is far beneath you....
		
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Greenfees in surrey are higher than blackpool, that's just a fact of life and nothing to do with SLH as a person or his social status.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2013)

chrisd said:



			We realised about 3 holes in that they were both using Iphones and decided to ignore the fact. I only mentioned the breach of rules on the 18th hole after we had won 8 and 7. They didn't agree that it was wrong and I just assured them that I was fully acquainted with the rule and that maybe they should check again. 

That seems the major problem, knowledge of the rules in some cases is so scant that even those who know more than most are often not believed.
		
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Seems Ok then.

Discussing and agreeing to allow use would mean both pair should be DQ-ed for agreeing to waive a Rule.

Agree re 'knowledge of the rules'. This is imply one of the more overt examples. Plenty of examples where things have been done wrongly just never get raised for various reasons, forgotten; because they were thought correct; from fear of consequences!


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			My new app is telling me I am 35.4 miles from the centre of the first green I will be playing tomorrow morning!!!

And its a 'friendly' society type stableford comp. So I think i wil be able to use it without upsetting the 'comittee'

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Along with your 15 clubs high including cor driver you've started 4 4 3. Hope thats good with you. :rofl:


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 27, 2013)

I dont understand a word of what you have just written.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



			I dont understand a word of what you have just written.
		
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If that's to do with our North Yorks colleague as just wrote - then I am in complete agreement with you.  I haven't a clue


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do wish that golfers using DMDs would stop being in denial about this and just admit that DMDs give them an advantage over players not using one.  Just admit it.
		
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What a load of cobblers...........

The ONLY advantage a DMD gives over a yardage book or yardage markers is that it saves time. That's all.
What does a DMD do?
It provides a distance from point A to point B.
What does a yardage book do?
It provides a distance from Point A to point B

Where's the difference, where's the advantage?
Everything a DMD can do, you can do with a yardage book or markers......but I can do them quicker.


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## North Mimms (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			What a load of cobblers...........

The ONLY advantage a DMD gives over a yardage book or yardage markers is that it saves time. That's all.
What does a DMD do?
It provides a distance from point A to point B.
What does a yardage book do?
It provides a distance from Point A to point B

Where's the difference, where's the advantage?
Everything a DMD can do, you can do with a yardage book or markers......but I can do them quicker.
		
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I've never understood while it's considered ok to to have a caddie who gives you distance information and a lot more, but not ok to use a DMD which just gives you distance.


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## Sledgehammer (Jun 27, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			I've never understood while it's considered ok to to have a caddie who gives you distance information and a lot more, but not ok to use a DMD which just gives you distance.
		
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Exactly. All a storm in a tea cup if you ask me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			I've never understood while it's considered ok to to have a caddie who gives you distance information and a lot more, but not ok to use a DMD which just gives you distance.
		
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Ok - yes I could have a caddy pace out my course for every competition and yes I could mark up a yardage book from all points NSE and w - but that is not realistic for any competition on anuy one day at my own club.  It just isn't. When did you last use a caddy for yardage advice round your own track?  I don't get why there is denial that they give an advantage - of course they give an advantage or you wouldn't use the blessed things - forget the time-saving red herring guff.  It is simply impractical for someone without a DMD to have the same information available. 

*I've* never understood why some players consider it essential to have their DMD with them in a competition.  Because it just isn't.  I accept them as having benefit to players in casual and Open Comps.  I consider they give an advantage to club members who have them in club competitions.  No amount of telling me that I could wander about the place pacing out distances from here there and everywhere will change that.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - yes I could have a caddy pace out my course for every competition and yes I could mark up a yardage book from all points NSE and w - but that is not realistic for any competition on anuy one day at my own club.  It just isn't. When did you last use a caddy for yardage advice round your own track?  I don't get why there isd denial that they give an advantage - of ouycrse they give an advantage.  *It is simply impractical for someone without a DMD to have the same information available. *

*I've* never understood why some players consider it essential to have their DMD with them in a competition.  Because it just isn't.
		
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You've obviously never used a DMD and hae no idea as to what they can and can't do.

Your scenario from earlier - where you're 70 yards left with trees etc to go over - a DMD can give you the distance info in seconds.
You can pace out to the nearest point you can find on your strokesaver and get EXACTLY the same info - EXACTLY the same.

What is this advantage you keep spouting on about?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			You've obviously never used a DMD and hae no idea as to what they can and can't do.

Your scenario from earlier - where you're 70 yards left with trees etc to go over - a DMD can give you the distance info in seconds.
You can pace out to the nearest point you can find on your strokesaver and get EXACTLY the same info - EXACTLY the same.

What is this advantage you keep spouting on about?
		
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Yes - I can pace it out.  Always that - I can pace it out.  Well maybe sometimes it's impractical or would be considered bad etiquette or delaying play to pace it out.  What then?  And if it's OK for me to have to pace out every shot why not my FC?  Ah - that would slow things down of course.  

It is *against the rules of golf to use DMDs* other than when a local rule permits.  So you tell me why you should be PERMITTED to use a DMD in a club competition rather than have me always having to defend what the rules say on the grounds of fairness in competitions.  That's all I'm doing.  

And on the topic of this discussion - whilst there is clearly confusion and ignorance amongst many players about what a Local Rule permits - simple - make the Local Rule ion DMDs cover casual and friendly golf only.  It doesn't have to exclude competitive golf because by default the rules do that.  Where is your problem with that?  It would at a stroke remove all possibility of unnecessary confusion, local rule breaking etc in club comps.  And when things are nice and sorted - then extend the LR to cover comps.


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## North Mimms (Jun 27, 2013)

Jack_bfc said:



*My new app is telling me I am 35.4 miles from the centre of the first green *I will be playing tomorrow morning!!!

And its a 'friendly' society type stableford comp. So I think i wil be able to use it without upsetting the 'comittee'

Click to expand...

I believe that is a mere Forum distance driver and a couple of 3 woods...


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I can pace it out.  Always that - I can pace it out.  Well maybe sometimes it's impractical or would be considered bad etiquette or delaying play to pace it out.  What then?  And if it's OK for me to have to pace out every shot why not my FC?  Ah - that would slow things down of course.  

It is *against the rules of golf to use DMDs* other than when a local rule permits.  So you tell me why you should be PERMITTED to use a DMD in a club competition rather than have me always having to defend what the rules say on the grounds of fairness in competitions.  That's all I'm doing.  

And on the topic of this discussion - whilst there is clearly confusion and ignorance amongst many players about what a Local Rule permits - simple - make the Local Rule ion DMDs cover casual and friendly golf only.  It doesn't have to exclude competitive golf because by default the rules do that.  Where is your problem with that?  It would at a stroke remove all possibility of unnecessary confusion, local rule breaking etc in club comps.  And when things are nice and sorted - then extend the LR to cover comps.
		
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Many (most even) clubs have the LR in place - that is a fact
So to keep bringing the "DMD's are against the rules" is virtually irrelevent.

So I don't need to justify why I'm allowed to use because the rules (LR) allows me.

You have a problem with them so you have to make your case...

Where/what is the advantage ...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Many (most even) clubs have the LR in place - that is a fact
So to keep bringing the "DMD's are against the rules" is virtually irrelevent.

So I don't need to justify why I'm allowed to use because the rules (LR) allows me.

You have a problem with them so you have to make your case...

Where/what is the advantage ...?
		
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Groan - am I missing something here in thinking that there is a world of difference and practicality between using a DMD and pacing out distances whilst playing in a competition.

Also did I miss the rationale FOR using DMDs in competitions - especially when so many seemed confused about what is allowed and what is not?  I seem to get a lot of 'why not?' and 'get over it' which are hardly rational arguments.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I can pace it out.  Always that - I can pace it out.  Well maybe sometimes it's impractical or would be considered bad etiquette or delaying play to pace it out.  What then?  And if it's OK for me to have to pace out every shot why not my FC?  Ah - that would slow things down of course.  

It is *against the rules of golf to use DMDs* other than when a local rule permits.  So you tell me why you should be PERMITTED to use a DMD in a club competition rather than have me always having to defend what the rules say on the grounds of fairness in competitions.  That's all I'm doing.  

And on the topic of this discussion - whilst there is clearly confusion and ignorance amongst many players about what a Local Rule permits - simple - make the Local Rule ion DMDs cover casual and friendly golf only.  It doesn't have to exclude competitive golf because by default the rules do that.  Where is your problem with that?  It would at a stroke remove all possibility of unnecessary confusion, local rule breaking etc in club comps.  And when things are nice and sorted - then extend the LR to cover comps.
		
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Rule 14.3 actually states...




			Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only.
		
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So claiming it is against the rules to use them is a very weak argument


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rule 14.3 actually states...



So claiming it is against the rules to use them is a very weak argument
		
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Awe not you as well HawkeyeMS  

Oh well - so what is your rationale FOR allowing DMDs in comps other than a club LR allows them.  Which is not really an argument - rather it is just a fact.  And a fact I might argue based upon an incorrect premis.  And then if there is confusion amongst players about what is or is not allowable then what is the problem with not allowing them in comps for the time being to mitigate against rule breaking.


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Many (most even) clubs have the LR in place - that is a fact
So to keep bringing the "DMD's are against the rules" is virtually irrelevent.

So I don't need to justify why I'm allowed to use because the rules (LR) allows me.

You have a problem with them so you have to make your case...

Where/what is the advantage ...?
		
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Oh dear Imurg, you've woken Hogan up!

Every DMD thread, and he's posting the same old! We've heard his rant against DMD's every time they are mentioned. He won't accept you're argument no matter how well expressed and its best left that we will all embrace new technology, save time, save pacing and play quicker and (despite his view) within the rules!


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Awe not you as well HawkeyeMS  

Oh well - so what is your rationale FOR allowing DMDs in comps other than a club LR allows them.  Which is not really an argument - rather it is just a fact.  And a fact I might argue based upon an incorrect premis.  And then if there is confusion amongst players about what is or is not allowable then what is the problem with not allowing them in comps for the time being to mitigate against rule breaking.
		
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So because the rules say we're allowed to use them (LR) we have to put forward a case for why we should be allowed to use them.....makes perfect sense to me - NOT!!

Where/what is the advantage in using a DMD...?
Getting a yardage with a DMD is the same as getting a yardage without one.


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2013)

My argument for allowing them is that they provide the golfer with information that is already available freely to them (from yardage markers and yardage books, in addition to pacing out where needed) but provides this information in a faster format than not allowing them provides. Knowing the exact yardage and hitting it the exact yardage are 2 very different concepts and golf should be about the latter and not the former.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Awe not you as well HawkeyeMS  

Oh well - so what is your rationale FOR allowing DMDs in comps other than a club LR allows them.  Which is not really an argument - rather it is just a fact.  And a fact I might argue based upon an incorrect premis.  And then if there is confusion amongst players about what is or is not allowable then what is the problem with not allowing them in comps for the time being to mitigate against rule breaking.
		
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Sorry mate, I wasn't going to 

My rationale is that distance information is considered factual information so a DMD is just another means of providing that information, and it is quicker at obtaining it. I stood next to Darren Clarke on the 17th at Wentworth on the Friday of this years BMW PGA after he hit his ball in the trees ( come to think of it, I spent more time with him then than I did on Monday ) and waited an age for his caddy to run up the fairway with his yardage book, find the nearest sprinkler head work out the distance to where he thought the best layup was and then pace back to where DC was. The whole process took about 3 minutes. A GPS would have done the job in seconds and the information would be the same


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2013)

And even more ironic as these days, most if not all of the yardages in the caddy's book will have at least been checked against if not obtained by using a DMD when the caddy was putting the book together.


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

I was watching Darren Clarke on the range at Wentworth 3 years ago when he actually bought, and paid for, a Nikon laser DMD!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

Oh well - if it's factual information and therefore do not provide anyone with any advantage then why do I see players using them when standing beside 150yd posts or beside sprinkler heads with yardages marked on.  And yet there is at least one advantage admitted to as HawkeyeMS has stated - speed.  Truth is I think that we all know that in a club competition speed of play isn't generally determined by working out distances - it's just one factor and not perhaps the major one.  So I'd say they make 'stuff all' difference to speed of play in a comp - a bit but in the great scheme of things not a lot.

Ah well.  As I said - I have accepted that I will not win this one.  DMDers will, it seems, forever live in strange land of denial that their DMD gives them *any *advantage of *any *sort over the DMDless.  Which I find rather curious 

However a temporary ban until we sort out what can and can't be used?  Now - we can't all afford dedicated DMDs and we really shouldn't encourage or facilitate rule breaking (deliberately or through ignorance) through use of rule-breaking phones and apps should we?  Surely we would all wish to avoid such things


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh well - if it's factual information and therefore do not provide anyone with any advantage then why do I see players using them when standing beside 150yd posts or beside sprinkler heads with yardages marked on.  And yet there is at least one advantage admitted to as HawkeyeMS has stated - speed.  Truth is I think that we all know that in a club competition speed of play isn't generally determined by working out distances - it's just one factor and not perhaps the major one.  So I'd say they make 'stuff all' difference to speed of play in a comp - a bit but in the great scheme of things not a lot.

Ah well.  As I said - I have accepted that I will not win this one.  DMDers will, it seems, forever live in strange land of denial that their DMD gives them *any *advantage of *any *sort over the DMDless.  Which I find rather curious 

However a temporary ban until we sort out what can and can't be used?  Now - we can't all afford dedicated DMDs and we really shouldn't encourage or facilitate rule breaking (deliberately or through ignorance) through use of rule-breaking phones and apps should we?  Surely we would all wish to avoid such things 

Click to expand...

Still the same old stuff, you really have to accept that most of us have moved from the 18th century!

DMD's are quicker than a yardage book or pacing

They do not break the rules

Many 150 yard markers are wrong

They do not give an advantage as everyone is entitled to have and use one

We don't need a temporary ban to " sort things out" it just needs doing


I don't mean to be rude Hogan but we've been through this a dozen times and if you want to live with your head in the sand........


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Still the same old stuff, you really have to accept that most of us have moved from the 18th century!

DMD's are quicker than a yardage book or pacing

They do not break the rules

Many 150 yard markers are wrong

They do not give an advantage as everyone is entitled to have and use one

We don't need a temporary ban to " sort things out" it just needs doing


I don't mean to be rude Hogan but we've been through this a dozen times and if you want to live with your head in the sand........
		
Click to expand...


Plus if it's a cost issue maybe all of us can't afford the latest adjustable incarnation of a driver, fairway, hybrid, or putter, do we ban those as well?


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## North Mimms (Jun 27, 2013)

Why do need a ban until "it gets sorted out"?

It's perfectly clear- only dedicated DMDs comply with R&A rules if allowed under a local rule.
Pretty much every smart phone has features that make their use as a DMD against the rules.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 27, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			Plus if it's a cost issue maybe all of us can't afford the latest adjustable incarnation of a driver, fairway, hybrid, or putter, do we ban those as well?
		
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Or dare I say electric trollies


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Or dare I say electric trollies
		
Click to expand...

No Hawkeye you don't dare!  It's my most important device!


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 27, 2013)

chrisd said:



			No Hawkeye you don't dare!  It's my most important device!
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that the tape over the distance facility on it! :rofl:


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah well.  As I said - I have accepted that I will not win this one.  DMDers will, it seems, forever live in strange land of denial that their DMD gives them *any *advantage of *any *sort over the DMDless.  Which I find rather curious 

Click to expand...

There seems to be only one person "In Denial" in this conversation


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			Isn't that the tape over the distance facility on it! :rofl:
		
Click to expand...


I can afford the device but struggling with cost of masking tape - that must give someone else an advantage!


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## davidg2010uk (Jun 27, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			Why do need a ban until "it gets sorted out"?

It's perfectly clear- only dedicated DMDs comply with R&A rules if allowed under a local rule.
Pretty much every smart phone has features that make their use as a DMD against the rules.
		
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Exactly!


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## Jungle (Jun 27, 2013)

This is quite timely actually. 

A few weeks ago I was paired with a new member at our club for the medal. During the 1st few holes he pulled out his phone to use as a DMD. I suggested that it was against the rules to use a smart phone so he put it away and on we went. However our next meeting at the club he had asked one of the committee members and they had claimed the phone was fine.

I've got him again on Saturday so I expect he'll have the phone out. Am I wrong?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Still the same old stuff, you really have to accept that most of us have moved from the 18th century!

DMD's are quicker than a yardage book or pacing

They do not break the rules

Many 150 yard markers are wrong

They do not give an advantage as everyone is entitled to have and use one

We don't need a temporary ban to " sort things out" it just needs doing


I don't mean to be rude Hogan but we've been through this a dozen times and if you want to live with your head in the sand........
		
Click to expand...

Ah well - so no advantage even although 150yd markers can be wrong in which case my pacing to the marker will not do me much good - so I will have to pace to the flag from my ball - which will make me very popular.  

And I'll will have to do some fancy trigonometry if I'm pacing up and down slopes from my ball to the flag and will have to make sure my pacing is consistent and a yard - or at least consistent so I can do a conversion from paces to yds; and unlike most - everyone can't afford one.  

And I must have forgot to mention that I have no issue with their use other than in comps - actually no - I did mention that.  

Oh and no need for a temporary ban because everyone can be trusted to follow the local rule and the issue with phones isn't really an issue at all - which is good.  

But that's all OK.  Because DMDs give no advantage.  Sorry for misunderstanding and trying to make a case for avoiding skewing things further from a level playing field - and unfortunate breaking of local rules.  

And you haven't been rude


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## NuShooz (Jun 28, 2013)

:temper:

never has such a smiley icon been so apt. 

:rofl:


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2013)

@SLH. You really did get sucked in again! :rofl:

I have certainly seen instances of guys with DMDs standing beside marker posts or sprinkler with distances marked. But that is excusable - with  laugh - as 'force of habit'.

The results available with DMDs really are (or should be) available elsewhere but golfers might not wish them out, for any number of reasons - the main one being the time involved.

I certainly played with more confidence, so better, when I got a Laser and had accurate distance to the pin, but it wasn't the DMD that gave me an advantage, it was knowing the distance! That info could have been found by any number of other methods but would almost certainly take longer to establish - in almost all cases..

Very few clubs don't have the LR in place (none that I know of) and it makes sense, imo. to allow them in comps. The R&A's approach is reasonable. I believe Clubs can safely pot a notice aying something the lines of -

Speciliast DMDs are fine - provided they conform.
There are no known Phone DMD Apps tht conform - because non-conforming features are also available on such phones. Unless it can be shown that a Phone DMD App does conform, their use will mean that the applicable Penalties under The Rules must be applied.


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

Ah well - so no advantage even although 150yd markers can be wrong in which case my pacing to the marker will not do me much good - so I will have to pace to the flag from my ball - which will make me very popular.  

*iIf the markers are wrong, they are wrong for everyone. If you don't have a legal DMD it's your choice just the same as not using a putter would be. Popularity does come into it*


And I'll will have to do some fancy trigonometry if I'm pacing up and down slopes from my ball to the flag and will have to make sure my pacing is consistent and a yard - or at least consistent so I can do a conversion from paces to yds; and unlike most - everyone can't afford one.  


*No you choose to do it, you don't "have to"*

And I must have forgot to mention that I have no issue with their use other than in comps - actually no - I did mention that.  

*You can't have an "issue" with a fact that they a perfectly legal to use*

Oh and no need for a temporary ban because everyone can be trusted to follow the local rule and the issue with phones isn't really an issue at all - which is good.  

*There is absolutely no need for a temporary ban, just tell everyone that all phone apps are ok or not - get the message across properly*

But that's all OK.  Because DMDs give no advantage.  Sorry for misunderstanding and trying to make a case for avoiding skewing things further from a level playing field - and unfortunate breaking of local rules.  

*you miss the point deliberately. There is no advantage if something in the game is available to everyone. Cost can't be a factor, some people won't buy the latest gear because of cost. 25 year old clubs could be a disadvantage but that's sport, it can't be the case that, in golf, that everyone is made to use the same make and type of equipment to "level the playing field*

And you haven't been rude :

*To be fair, it's got pretty close after reading the same old nonsense every time the words DMD's comes up*)


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## bobmac (Jun 28, 2013)

SLH, can I ask...do you have and use a sat nav in your car?


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2013)

Chris.

I understand, from a reply in an earlier post, that your team was knowingly using a non-compliant device - as well as the opposition though it turns out that the non compliance was not known to them.

If so, would you not consider that your team's deliberate breach of the rule to be cheating? 

The R&A/USGA statement is quite clear - and, typically, resilient for future changes. 

As it happens, there are no phones/Apps that I know of that are compliant. That doesn't mean there won't be in the future. The flowchart will still be applicable.

There is actually no real need to make it any clearer!

@Bob.  All SatNavs are perfectly legal. And everyone who has them is happy to be consider them to be an 'advantage', which is , I believe, SLH's real gripe with their use by some.


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Chris.

I understand, from a reply in an earlier post, that your team was knowingly using a non-compliant device - as well as the opposition though it turns out that the non compliance was not known to them.

If so, would you not consider that your team's deliberate breach of the rule to be cheating? 

Click to expand...



No Fox, quite the opposite in fact. This was a HDID matchplay 4BBB knockout. Our guests used I phones and my partner and I used my Garmin G3. We were a few holes in when we saw what they were using and my partner (MashleyR7) and I spoke to each other and decided not to mention the infringement to them. This was for two reasons, first was that if we mentioned it to them we would have to have pulled them for the clear rules breach and penalised them and also we won the first five holes in a row and took the view that using an illegal DMD wasn't going to influence the result. We did agree as a pair that we wouldn't "pull them" for it even if the match swung against us as, if we saw the transgression, then we should call it straight away and we didn't want to do that. 

When I mentioned it we had sewn the match 8 and 7 and it was on the 18th tee when one of them used it in front of me and made a comment about the yardage based on the info from the phone. They absolutely disagreed with my reading of the rules and  wasn't ever likely to play them again so decided to invite them to recheck the rules when they got home and let the matter rest.


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

Jungle said:



			This is quite timely actually. 

A few weeks ago I was paired with a new member at our club for the medal. During the 1st few holes he pulled out his phone to use as a DMD. I suggested that it was against the rules to use a smart phone so he put it away and on we went. However our next meeting at the club he had asked one of the committee members and they had claimed the phone was fine.

I've got him again on Saturday so I expect he'll have the phone out. Am I wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Unless he's got a very unusual smart phone, you are right, he shouldn't be using it.
re: the uninformed committee member, I suggest you write to the committee, asking them to post a list of all phones apps and models of phone that conform to the R&A flow chart. 
It won't take them long- it will be a very very very short list...

(somewhere earlier in this thread there is a link to this flowchart. Maybe print it out for him for saturday and maybe a second copy for him to pass on the committee member)


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2013)

chrisd said:



			No Fox, quite the opposite in fact.
		
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Another mis-read! 'they' became 'we'!

Lucky I loaded my comment with disclaimers this time!

You actually did exactly what I would have done.

Still assert that the Rule needs no further clarification.

Did/will you raise it on HDID?


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Did/will you raise it on HDID?
		
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No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things. 

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

chrisd said:



			No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things. 

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!
		
Click to expand...

I agree that making all phone apps legal would make things easier and bring the use of DMDs(to those that want them...) to more players.
However I suspect that that Garmin, Skycaddie and all the rest represent quite a vocal lobby to R&A AGAINST allowing phone apps.

Knowing what the local weather station says was happening 10 miles away, 15 minutes ago has never been any use to me, since the wind goes round in circles on my course!


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## duncan mackie (Jun 28, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			Unless he's got a very unusual smart phone, you are right, he shouldn't be using it.
re: the uninformed committee member, I suggest you write to the committee, asking them to post a list of all phones apps and models of phone that conform to the R&A flow chart. 
It won't take them long- it will be a very very very short list...

(somewhere earlier in this thread there is a link to this flowchart. Maybe print it out for him for saturday and maybe a second copy for him to pass on the committee member)
		
Click to expand...

all so true

when the 'clarification' was issued I will admit to binning it and sending it out a note saying 'I am not aware of any current Smartphone model that complies with the rules if used as a DMD - anyone that has one and believes otherwise should contact me' - nobody did.

just to be clear, it's not the 'apps' that cause the problem, it's the hardware sensors - thermometer, barometric pressure, compass and tilt.

I have no doubt that at some point there will be a model on the market that has none of the above, and can run a DMD application - it may even exist now - but I'm not aware of it.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2013)

"Ban everything till its sorted."

It has been sorted, it's just that some people don't like the resolution and want it diluting to allow iphone type apps.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 28, 2013)

Personally, I have no problem with DMD's, but I hope that they don't allow phones in the future. I already dislike seeing people on their phone on the course, and being allowed to have them out for use as a DMD will only encourage people to text/take phone calls. 

For the record, I don't own one, don't know if I will buy one, but see no problem with them. Accept that they DO give an advantage, but mainly over lazy people like myself who have a yardage book, but I'm not going to pace up and down and side to side to work out an exact distance.


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			I have no doubt that at some point there will be a model on the market that has none of the above, and can run a DMD application - it may even exist now - but I'm not aware of it.
		
Click to expand...



  plus a bit of gaffer tape  
	
 = legal phone


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## duncan mackie (Jun 28, 2013)

North Mimms said:



View attachment 6562
  plus a bit of gaffer tape  
	View attachment 6563
 = legal phone
		
Click to expand...

last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........


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## cookelad (Jun 28, 2013)

chrisd said:



			No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things. 

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!
		
Click to expand...

Just read the R&A Flowchart page and I agree the clubs should be doing more to make the exact ruling known. I'll admit to having used my phone as in the past (although I can't remember it having a compass or weather app) and like Chris' opponent I was told by a playing partner that phones couldn't be used that way and dismissed it as someone making stuff up! - if it was illegal why would so-and-so make the app? - obviously I know better now.  

Similar to Chrisd I played with someone over the weekend who I'm reasonably sure was using his phone as a DMD but only sporadically so could easily have been checking messages/emails (which is legal apparently!) we were both playing pretty badly and a convenient conversation didn't come up, so I never raised the issue (which in the context of the thread - spreading the word - is probably wrong) as I wasn't sure what he was using his phone for.

Bottom line for me - Clubs and the R&A/USGA (and the app producing companies) should be making it more known that phones can't be used as a Distance Measuring Device in competitions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2013)

bobmac said:



			SLH, can I ask...do you have and use a sat nav in your car?
		
Click to expand...

No - but I invented it!


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........ 

Click to expand...

Just as well- I was having trouble sourcing the phone in the picture!


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 28, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........ 

Click to expand...

Is a tape measure not just a form of DMD.

For what it is worth my view is that DMD's should be allowed in competition but to make it crystal clear the R&A should produce a list of conforming devices just as they do for balls and clubs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			For the record, I don't own one, don't know if I will buy one, but see no problem with them. Accept that they DO give an advantage, but mainly over lazy people like myself who have a yardage book, but I'm not going to pace up and down and side to side to work out an exact distance.
		
Click to expand...

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you CH - that's all I wanted to hear from soneone - anyone.  So I'll now shut up on this (no doubt to most folks relief), as I know I won't win (though I am denying that I have lost )

I think clubs could and should do more to make sure that players do not have any excuse for claiming ignorance over any DMD - phone app or dedicated.  So please sort it clubs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			Is a tape measure not just a form of DMD.

For what it is worth my view is that DMD's should be allowed in competition but to make it crystal clear the R&A should produce a list of conforming devices just as they do for balls and clubs.
		
Click to expand...

...and players will have to start calling foul on FC and PPs using non-conforming devices.  Easiest way to apply the rule is for any player wishing to use a DMD or phone app to get a certificate from their club confirming that the device they are using conforms.  Easy, quick and simple.


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and players will have to start calling foul on FC and PPs using non-conforming devices.  Easiest way to apply the rule is for any player wishing to use a DMD or phone app to get a certificate from their club confirming that the device they are using conforms.  Easy, quick and simple.
		
Click to expand...

Easy quick and simple, but unecessary.

Dedicated DMD - OK
All smartphones - not ok unless ownwer can prove otherwise.


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			Is a tape measure not just a form of DMD.

For what it is worth my view is that DMD's should be allowed in competition but to make it crystal clear *the R&A should produce a list of conforming devices just as they do for balls and clubs*.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean smartphones?
Have you seen how quickly the smartphone market moves? and how long it takes the R&A to pronounce on anything? (see belly putters)
Expect to see an announcement at the end of the year that the iPhone2 may or may not conform....


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## bladeplayer (Jun 28, 2013)

Imurg said:



			You've obviously never used a DMD and hae no idea as to what they can and can't do.
		
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I have to agree with Imurg , i was always in the no need for the DMD thingy .. i even was in the mag in the old v new equipment debate , i was for the old & said something like 15 yards from the 150= 165 and as long as i can ad that would do me or something like that .. 
Then i tried one.. Garmin G5 ,... great piece of equipment and il admit the 1st few times i was flaffing around with it so probably wasnt any quicker , now tho a quick glance give me any yardage that i need & it definatly speeds things up .. 

It doesnt give you an advantage as such but it does make working out distances alot quicker ..


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and players will have to start calling foul on FC and PPs using non-conforming devices.  Easiest way to apply the rule is for any player wishing to use a DMD or phone app to get a certificate from their club confirming that the device they are using conforms.  Easy, quick and simple.
		
Click to expand...

Should we do the same for clubs and balls then??


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 28, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			Do you mean smartphones?
Have you seen how quickly the smartphone market moves? and how long it takes the R&A to pronounce on anything? (see belly putters)
Expect to see an announcement at the end of the year that the iPhone2 may or may not conform....
		
Click to expand...

No I don't mean smartphones,  there would have to be a list of *all* conforming devices.  The club and ball market also move quickly.  Anyway it is unlikely that any smartphone would be conforming.


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## Colin L (Jun 28, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			Anyway it is unlikely that any smartphone would be conforming.
		
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It wouldn't be very smart if it did conform.


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## North Mimms (Jun 28, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			No I don't mean smartphones,  there would have to be a list of *all* conforming devices.  The club and ball market also move quickly.  Anyway it is unlikely that any smartphone would be conforming.
		
Click to expand...

I don't see a need for a list.
If it is manufactured as a dedicated DMD, it should conform (apart from some laser which has a slope reading option which can be disabled to make it conforming)

Like it or not, those who THINK their smartphone is ok are deluding themselves. But the ability of golfers to bend or ignore the rules to suit themselves never ceases to amaze me


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2013)

North Mimms said:



			Easy quick and simple, but unecessary.

Dedicated DMD - OK
All smartphones - not ok unless ownwer can prove otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

Agree - thouigh I'd have thought the easiest way for a player to prove a phone is conforming is by having a compliance certificate - I wouldn't want a PP or FC to present his phone to me ion the 1st tee and say 'this is compliant - OK?'  How do I know.   So we take our phone to any golf professional or golf shop and ask them to check it and provide a compliance certificate - or not as the case may be.  Job done.


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agree - thouigh I'd have thought the easiest way for a player to prove a phone is conforming is by having a compliance certificate - I wouldn't want a PP or FC to present his phone to me ion the 1st tee and say 'this is compliant - OK?'  How do I know.   So we take our phone to any golf professional or golf shop and ask them to check it and provide a compliance certificate - or not as the case may be.  Job done.
		
Click to expand...

The easiest way is for players to acquaint themselves properly with the rules!

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of half the club members turning up on the pro/secretaries doorstep to get a certificate for one of dozens of DMD's on the market. 

The abuse of the rules in this matter is hardly different from other infringements where players don't have a Scooby doo about even the most basic of rules!


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 28, 2013)

chrisd said:



			The easiest way is for players to acquaint themselves properly with the rules!

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of half the club members turning up on the pro/secretaries doorstep to get a certificate for one of dozens of DMD's on the market. 

The abuse of the rules in this matter is hardly different from other infringements where players don't have a Scooby doo about even the most basic of rules!
		
Click to expand...



:whoo: :whoo:

:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Region3 (Jun 28, 2013)

Lots of different posts I'd like to quote but I can't be bothered with all the faffing around, so just a few comments/observations.....

Although I don't agree with SILH, it's not fair to complain about him making his opinions known, no matter how often. I'm sure there are other topics that crop up from time to time where the same people give the same opinions each time. I'm not moaning about that... I wouldn't want it any other way.

I'll admit DMD's are an advantage to me, because as in my first sentence, if I didn't have one I wouldn't be bothered to work out an exact distance as I'd be entitled to.
I'll start counting from a fairway marker if I remember, and try to keep count while I'm listening to my mate. Then I only know roughly how many feet one of my steps is, and if I manage all that I then have a number that is probably within 5 or 10 yards.

If I forget or lose count I'm rubbish at judging distance so would be clueless. What I normally think to myself as I'm standing at my ball looking forward or back to the nearest yardage marker is "would I mind facing a fast bowler from this distance" because I know that's 22yds.

As for "allowing them in friendly golf", I couldn't give a stuff what they say about friendly golf because even if they banned them outright I would still use mine when practising.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Lots of different posts I'd like to quote but I can't be bothered with all the faffing around, so just a few comments/observations.....

Although I don't agree with SILH, it's not fair to complain about him making his opinions known, no matter how often. I'm sure there are other topics that crop up from time to time where the same people give the same opinions each time. I'm not moaning about that... I wouldn't want it any other way.

I'll admit DMD's are an advantage to me, because as in my first sentence, if I didn't have one I wouldn't be bothered to work out an exact distance as I'd be entitled to.
I'll start counting from a fairway marker if I remember, and try to keep count while I'm listening to my mate. Then I only know roughly how many feet one of my steps is, and if I manage all that I then have a number that is probably within 5 or 10 yards.

If I forget or lose count I'm rubbish at judging distance so would be clueless. What I normally think to myself as I'm standing at my ball looking forward or back to the nearest yardage marker is "would I mind facing a fast bowler from this distance" because I know that's 22yds.

As for "allowing them in friendly golf", I couldn't give a stuff what they say about friendly golf because even if they banned them outright I would still use mine when practising.
		
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Thankyou sir/madam - on supporting my right to whinge on about it - even though I try not to.  But also for actually saying that your use of a DMD gives you an advatage - over the old you or another player of the same mindset as the old you (as far as pacing out yardages is concerned).  That really is all I was getting at.  

It's OK for those who say I'm talking rubbish to tell me that I could pace out and get the same yardage information as provided by a DMD - but we all know that we just do not do this for most shots - and never have and never will.  It is too time consuming.  

So while perhaps there is in theory little or no great advantage provided to a player by a DMD - in practice we just won't pace everything out - for a variety of reasons.  And primarily we don't all pace yardages out is because a round of golf would take absolutely ages and everyone would be totally cheesed off. 

Anyway you disagree with me - which is fine; but you admit they provide you with an advantage - which is also fine.


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou sir/madam - on supporting my right to whinge on about it - even though I try not to.  But also for actually saying that your use of a DMD gives you an advantage
		
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I'm sure that no one denies you the right to whinge as often as you wish!

I do disagree with the "advantage" comment though. There is nothing in golf, other than natural talent, that I can have that you can't have so, to me, the suggestion that my ball, clubs, shoes, electric trolley or DMD gives me an advantage over you is a fallacy, it is your choice whether you equip yourself to the same level as a fellow competitor, so in that respect, if anything, it is you placing yourself at a dis-advantage.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Lots of different posts I'd like to quote but I can't be bothered with all the faffing around, so just a few comments/observations.....
		
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Likewise, some that I feel I must...

I agree that having and holding to an opinion is fine - even if it differs from mine - so shouldn't be complained about.

@Duncan and ColinL. I (currently) believe the IPhone 3G would conform (no Compass, Barometer,Inclinometer and the overheat sensor is not a thermometer), but that all current Apps would make the overall device non-conforming. 3GS and later have Compass and Inclinometer, so are non-conforming. Whether the 3G battery charge would last a round of golf is debatable!

@North Mimms. It's not quite so simple. Some GPS had software (suggested club) that made it non-conforming.- though a firmware update sorted that. Some Lasers have Inclinometers that make them non-conforming - even if the 'Slope' feature is turned off/disabled.

@doublebogey Conforming Devices/Apps would be a good idea and this is actually encouraged. The absence of any such list could well indicate something! Those specialist DMD suppliers do indicate, on their blubs, where they conform - but don't seem to when they don't aka Bushnell Slope edition, Leupold GX-4.

@SLH Indeed, 'calling FCs and PPs' is the way to broadcast the non-conformity of such devices. Provided they haven't been told otherwise by some mis-informed 'authority'! To not do so is tacit agreement to agree to waive the Rules in Strokeplay, so should result in you DQ-ing! In Matchplayi, using one yourself is knowingly breaching the Rules - so cheating? You are allowed to ignore breaches by the opposition though - but should be informed after the match - a ChrisD did.

That's why I believe ChrisD, or others (possibly better for anonymity), should raise the issue on HDID - simply pointing to the R&A/USGA statement and flowchart.

I believe that the post that started this thread wan't so much about DMDs, but actually about knowledge of the Rules - and how that knowledge is obtained/updated/(mis-)interpreted!


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Likewise, some that I feel I must...

I agree that having and holding to an opinion is fine - even if it differs from mine - so shouldn't be complained about.

@Duncan and ColinL. I (currently) believe the IPhone 3G would conform (no Compass, Barometer,Inclinometer and the overheat sensor is not a thermometer), but that all current Apps would make the overall device non-conforming. 3GS and later have Compass and Inclinometer, so are non-conforming. Whether the 3G battery charge would last a round of golf is debatable!

@North Mimms. It's not quite so simple. Some GPS had software (suggested club) that made it non-conforming.- though a firmware update sorted that. Some Lasers have Inclinometers that make them non-conforming - even if the 'Slope' feature is turned off/disabled.

@doublebogey Conforming Devices/Apps would be a good idea and this is actually encouraged. The absence of any such list could well indicate something! Those specialist DMD suppliers do indicate, on their blubs, where they conform - but don't seem to when they don't aka Bushnell Slope edition, Leupold GX-4.

@SLH Indeed, 'calling FCs and PPs' is the way to broadcast the non-conformity of such devices. Provided they haven't been told otherwise by some mis-informed 'authority'! To not do so is tacit agreement to agree to waive the Rules in Strokeplay, so should result in you DQ-ing! In Matchplayi, using one yourself is knowingly breaching the Rules - so cheating? You are allowed to ignore breaches by the opposition though - but should be informed after the match - a ChrisD did.

That's why I believe ChrisD, or others (possibly better for anonymity), should raise the issue on HDID - simply pointing to the R&A/USGA statement and flowchart.

I believe that the post that started this thread wan't so much about DMDs, but actually about knowledge of the Rules - and how that knowledge is obtained/updated/(mis-)interpreted!
		
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Spot on!


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## Region3 (Jun 28, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			@Duncan and ColinL. I (currently) believe the IPhone 3G would conform (no Compass, Barometer,Inclinometer and the overheat sensor is not a thermometer), but that all current Apps would make the overall device non-conforming. 3GS and later have Compass and Inclinometer, so are non-conforming. Whether the 3G battery charge would last a round of golf is debatable!
		
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I wouldn't have thought you'd need an inclinometer since GPS data includes altitude - provided the device knows where you want to land the ball!


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## duncan mackie (Jun 28, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			@Duncan and ColinL. I (currently) believe the IPhone 3G would conform (no Compass, Barometer,Inclinometer and the overheat sensor is not a thermometer), but that all current Apps would make the overall device non-conforming. 3GS and later have Compass and Inclinometer, so are non-conforming. Whether the 3G battery charge would last a round of golf is debatable!
		
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I knew there had to be one out there!  

An excellent example  = as long as you hadn't added the Temperature App or the Compass App I can't see anything wrong with this particular model if used with a valid DMD application.

As you say, it wasn't around long, and the updated 3GS is a no no, but one on the list is a starter


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2013)

Perhaps a different look at what difference they actually make, and does it reallyt matter to the average hacker - and I include my self in the average hacker group.

My Skycaddie subs ran out in May last yast year. My handicap climbed quite dramatically. In January this year I bought A laser rangefinder and............................ no change. So having shifted from something that gave green accuracy to something that gave me pin accuracy, no change. I left the laser in my locker but bought new irons - wow! Back to Cat 1. Bought a new Skycaddie SGX, and now I'm a midge's away from 6 again.

Truthfully, we're all brainwashed by the usual marketing hype. We're all just not good enough to hit the yardages we think we hit.

Seriously, do a month without your mental pit prop and you might just realise its got nowt to do with the yardage and more to do with you being cwap, just like me.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2013)

Region3 said:



			I wouldn't have thought you'd need an inclinometer since GPS data includes altitude - provided the device knows where you want to land the ball!
		
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Well that would be available to any GPS system too - but the firmware ignores that info. 

Any Laser that also has one is non-conforming. That's how it works out the allowance for Slope.

So having one is almost certain to render the device non-conforming - even if not used. Any app that harnesses the altitude element of the GPS data would render that Device non-conforming when using that App, but not the device per se - otherwise ALL GPS would be non-conforming. Surprise, surprise, that's actually covered in/by the statement!


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## Evesdad (Jun 28, 2013)

I've been thinking of getting a GPS for the last year and really liked the watch type ones. My 3 playing partners all have one so put it off as I would just ask them if I was stuck so defered my decision. Just recently I've played better ive played better just pacing from the markers and using my eyes and brain, well I'm playing better! Too many times I've changed clubs using the yardage given and ended up short or long. At my level I don't need precise distances any way. So for the foreseeable future I'm out.


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## Canfordhacker (Jun 28, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			As for the argument about the potential to use other features on the phone to assist, i thought golf was a game of trust ? Maybe we should ban all comps that aren't drawn, maybe we should never allow anybody to look for there ball alone, maybe we should have a scrutineer at the first tee on every course checking the grooves on players clubs ?
		
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I get the rules, but for me this says it. For every person using a compass on their phone to help with a golf shot there will be hundreds of people improving their lie in the rough. I'm trusted to carry but not use a real compass. My phone doesn't have an inclinometer, thermometer or barometer. But it can access info that is based on a weather station miles away from the shot I'm playing. It just doesn't feel right to me, but yes, I will abide by it.

If a criminal law was so far off the mark it would be headline news.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2013)

Evesdad said:



			I've been thinking of getting a GPS for the last year and really liked the watch type ones. My 3 playing partners all have one so put it off as I would just ask them if I was stuck so defered my decision. Just recently I've played better ive played better just pacing from the markers and using my eyes and brain, well I'm playing better! Too many times I've changed clubs using the yardage given and ended up short or long. At my level I don't need precise distances any way. So for the foreseeable future I'm out.
		
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Good post this I think - your subconscious golfing brain works out effort, hand speed etc for the distance it believes the shot to be.  The brain might be wrong in respect of yardage but I suspect that more often than not it plays the shot for the distance it sees - and often it won't matter if the it got it wrong.  Throwing into the mix an actual accurate distance measurement that the subconscious may not agree with I think introduces unnecessary confusion in the mind.  But that is just me and my golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that no one denies you the right to whinge as often as you wish!

I do disagree with the "advantage" comment though. There is nothing in golf, other than natural talent, that I can have that you can't have so, to me, the suggestion that my ball, clubs, shoes, electric trolley or DMD gives me an advantage over you is a fallacy, it is your choice whether you equip yourself to the same level as a fellow competitor, so in that respect, if anything, it is you placing yourself at a dis-advantage.
		
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Though in this instance (thankfully for a change) it is not me you are disagreeing with - but R3 who is actually stating what he finds out to be true.  The DMD helps him because I believe he is a typical golfer who did not and has never paced out every shot - especially given distance markers are known to be of dubious and of inconsistent accuracy.


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## NorfolkShaun (Jun 29, 2013)

I have a DMD, a Garmin G6 (which I bought second hand). I find this very helpful as i'm not the best at judging distances being still relatively new to golf. I know some peoples means are less than others but to most that play golf as DMD is an affordable accessory, some units are available for just over Â£100 new and secondhand units can be  cheaper.

I have seen people in comps using a phone as a DMD and generally they say they did not know they were not allowed to use their phone.

As an accessory I do think they can speed up play when used properly.

I have to say I cannot see a problem with phone apps being used as a DMD, however as mentioned I do think Garmin Skycaddie etc would have quite a lot to say were a Â£5 app be allowed to replace a Â£200 DMD, I believe that phones as a DMD will never be allowed though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2013)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I have a DMD, a Garmin G6 (which I bought second hand). I find this very helpful as i'm not the best at judging distances being still relatively new to golf. I know some peoples means are less than others but to most that play golf as DMD is an affordable accessory, some units are available for just over Â£100 new and secondhand units can be  cheaper.

I have seen people in comps using a phone as a DMD and generally they say they did not know they were not allowed to use their phone.

As an accessory I do think they can speed up play when used properly.

I have to say I cannot see a problem with phone apps being used as a DMD, however as mentioned I do think Garmin Skycaddie etc would have quite a lot to say were a Â£5 app be allowed to replace a Â£200 DMD, I believe that phones as a DMD will never be allowed though.
		
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Strikes me that dedicated DMDs are the gas lamp of today's golf.  Phone companies and apps suppliers just won't accept a banning of the use of phones and phone apps - or they will find some way around it.  That's what happens when you open up an aspect of the game to technlogy - you open a can of worms and the game loses control to commercial interests. Which is a pity.

Meanwhile - with phones and apps the game struggles to enforce it's rules through ignorance or deliberate disobedience by players - not something the game would put up with it seems to me in any other context (see putter anchoring - banned as it got out of control and contravened the 'spirit' of the game)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2013)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I have a DMD, a Garmin G6 (which I bought second hand). I find this very helpful as i'm not the best at judging distances being still relatively new to golf. I know some peoples means are less than others but to most that play golf as DMD is an affordable accessory, some units are available for just over Â£100 new and secondhand units can be  cheaper.
		
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...though if you read earlier in this discussion you will find at least one poster who does not have one due to either the expense or justifying the expense.


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## NorfolkShaun (Jun 29, 2013)

...though if you read earlier in this discussion you will find at least one poster who does not have one due to either the expense or justifying the expense.
		
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Hence why I stated most


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## G1BB0 (Jun 29, 2013)

golf is so stuck up it own 'arris its beyond belief, even with a compass and weather app we still have to make the swing and hit the bloody thing. If I had 137, x degrees north by nothwest wind at 5 mph, 10 degree's air temp I would either nail it or shank/top/fat

The pros wait 10 minutes for the wind to drop with exact yardages and elevation in their little books anyway!

I wonder if the R & A, USGA etc get backhanders from Garmin etc cos otherwise they would be out of business pretty darn quick


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			I wonder if the R & A, USGA etc get backhanders from Garmin etc cos otherwise they would be out of business pretty darn quick
		
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I don't believe that happens - even through sponsorship etc. Golf is rather different from FIFA!

I believe the authorities may be aware of the effect some of their rulings could have on these businesses though and that might colour some rulings.


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## G1BB0 (Jun 29, 2013)

its either cash backhanders or a severe backwards mentality with regards technology and the advancement of golf imho


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			its either cash backhanders *or a severe backwards mentality with regards technology and the advancement of golf imho*

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Not in my opinion!

Determined to uphold the fundamental traditions maybe. Certainly can't accuse them of not being interested in the advancement of Golf though!


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## TheClaw (Jun 29, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good post this I think - your subconscious golfing brain works out effort, hand speed etc for the distance it believes the shot to be.  The brain might be wrong in respect of yardage but I suspect that more often than not it plays the shot for the distance it sees - and often it won't matter if the it got it wrong.  Throwing into the mix an actual accurate distance measurement that the subconscious may not agree with I think introduces unnecessary confusion in the mind.  But that is just me and my golf.
		
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Only a good post because you agree with it. I'm hopeless at judging distances. Played at a strange course yesterday and tried to judge the distance to bunkers at a few different holes. Was miles out when I checked on the GPS. 

How can an actual distance confuse the mind? Trust issues?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 29, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			golf is so stuck up it own 'arris its beyond belief, even with a compass and weather app we still have to make the swing and hit the bloody thing. If I had 137, x degrees north by nothwest wind at 5 mph, 10 degree's air temp I would either nail it or shank/top/fat

The pros wait 10 minutes for the wind to drop with exact yardages and elevation in their little books anyway!

I wonder if the R & A, USGA etc get backhanders from Garmin etc cos otherwise they would be out of business pretty darn quick
		
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I think Garmin have enough other products to keep them going.


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## NorfolkShaun (Jun 29, 2013)

I agree i'm sure Garmin do, however as Gibbo said I do think golf is a bit stuck up its self and I don't see phone apps being allowed.

On the matter of backhanders I'm not sure this is going on I mean what ever next MP's making the most of their expenses.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2013)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I agree i'm sure Garmin do, however as Gibbo said I do think golf is a bit stuckOn the matter of backhanders I'm not sure this is going on I mean what ever next MP's making the most of their expenses.....
		
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Oh I'm sure the ruling bodies in time will be forced to accept phones as their current stance could be seen as being restraint of trade.  I strongly suspect the subtleties and nuances of the rules of golf and a golfers 'honesty' will be great irrelevances in the eyes of lawyers claiming restraint of trade on behalf of the phone manufacturers.  Matter of time really I think.


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## Imurg (Jun 29, 2013)

Just a point on that - the phone manufacturers have little or nothing to do with Apps that are written for them. HTC, Samsung and Apple don't design their phones with golf gps in mind.


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## G1BB0 (Jun 29, 2013)

Garmin was a crap bvrand to use on my behalf but skycaddie for sure would be reeling initially. I just feel most phones nowadays are smart phones, if these can be encompassed into golf then surely it broadens the sports overall attraction maybe?


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## NorfolkShaun (Jun 29, 2013)

While I understand what you are saying. This brings in the argument of mobile phone use on the course again, this is mainly why I do not think they will be allowed.

Mobile phone apps have their place in the market, they are a good cheap introduction to DMD for anyone with a smart phone to trial while not in comps (where phone are permitted on course)

Then as I did if you feel you would like a DMD you have an cost effective way to trial before you buy a dedicated DMD.


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## G1BB0 (Jun 29, 2013)

anyway it isnt going to happen in the forseeable so either fork out the extra Â£Â£Â£ or go to specsavers


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

I read this thread having searched the web for why I'd been told I could  not use my phone.  The title of the thread says it for me - "_*I wish they would sort it properly*_"

The Rules of Golf state very specifically 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."

Why mention a smartphone, when there only appear to be ancient devices (iPhone 3G is mentioned above, which was sold from 2008 to 2010) that actually comply?  These are the rules 2012 - 2015.

The  rule does not mention compass or barometer, though both of those are  mentioned in the thread several times as if they are the rule.

The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment 
a.  That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b.   For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that 
might affect his play

"might" :rofl:is  a ridiculous statement.  There is no way in reality that having  knowledge of the compass direction (for which I would need to download an app) will help me play my game.  Yes I've  seen comments above about that it helps to  assess the wind, but really...  either it gusts around and moves direction, or you can flipping well feel  it.  There is no way that knowing the barometric pressure (if indeed I  could get to it on my phone) would help me.  But somehow,  because it "might", I apparently cannot use my phone which has both.  I  do not comprehend that, and neither is in the R&A November 2009  statement.

A quick look at for example, the Garmin Approach G6,  shows me that it "averages how far you hit each club". That can most  definitely "assist him in making a stroke or in his play"  yet the R&A November 2009 statement says it is OK!

The  skycaddie SGX says "IntelliGreen Pro is another proprietary feature   that adds distances to  major green contours, false fronts, front carry and back distances â€”  plus any other point on the green from your angle of attack".  Looking  at the screen shot in the instruction book, it even maps those contours on the green!   Surely even knowing where a contour is assists the player?  Especially  if from where you are you cannot see it.

Several of this thread's  contributors have mentioned the Skycaddie.  This costs Â£250 or so plus  after 30 days, Â£30 pa for even BASIC GREEN INFORMATION, compared to my  phone app which cost a one off Â£10, with user updates continually.  That  subscription is not what I would call nominal (as Golf Monthly's review does). The  price differential is such that the rules are actually discriminating  against many.

I have tried course planners bought at various  courses I have visited, but my experience is that every one of them had  errors, or was out of date such that it meant I went in a new bunker or  hit what my shot saver told me was the right distance to find it had  changed.  On one course in Scotland, we went up the wrong fairway because we had no compass and the map was misleading. I've had difficulty several times knowing where to go, despite planners, and I have given up buying them.

I know for a fact that there are many players who use an app on their phone, not for one second imagining that an inbuilt compass and barometer "might" assist them.  Probably not even knowing that they have those capabilities.

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly".


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## stevie_r (Jul 23, 2013)

You are preaching to a large number of the already converted on that one I'm afraid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			I have tried course planners bought at various  courses I have visited, but my experience is that every one of them had  errors, or was out of date such that it meant I went in a new bunker or  hit what my shot saver told me was the right distance to find it had  changed.  On one course in Scotland, we went up the wrong fairway because we had no compass and the map was misleading. I've had difficulty several times knowing where to go, despite planners, and I have given up buying them.
		
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Ah well - that's me knacked - I can't trust the distance markers on the course and I can't trust the course planner.  What do I do now to get the factual info a DMD or golf app would give me - if I don't buy a DMD or have such an app.  Seems I will have to accept that these things will give their users an advantage over me - which is a pity.   I'll go quietly...


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## duncan mackie (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			I read this thread having searched the web for why I'd been told I could  not use my phone.  The title of the thread says it for me - "_*I wish they would sort it properly*_"

The Rules of Golf state very specifically 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."

Why mention a smartphone, when there only appear to be ancient devices (iPhone 3G is mentioned above, which was sold from 2008 to 2010) that actually comply?  These are the rules 2012 - 2015.

The  rule does not mention compass or barometer, though both of those are  mentioned in the thread several times as if they are the rule.

The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment 
a.  That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b.   For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that 
might affect his play

........

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly".
		
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you seem to be confusing the clarity of the rules with how you think the rules should rule.

your post indicates that you clearly understand the rule - but equally clearly don't like, or agree with it.

you are not alone.

for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

_Since initially posting I have re-read the R&A November 2009  statement.  It specifically mentions a device with a compass but says that if this is only accessible via internet, it is OK. So if I have a mapping app like Open Street Maps or Sygic or TomTom, even if I do not use them, I cannot use my phone as a DMD.  If I only ever use google or bing maps, and have not downloaded any of their maps for offline usage, and don't use them while playing, I'm OK. _

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly".  Compass should be included in the specimen local rule, and clubs need to publicise it.  In effect, phones should be banned which would make it a lot clearer, and destroy an awful lot of businesses making and selling such apps.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.
		
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 That was NOT in my edition of Rules of Golf 2012-2015. I searched for compass and it was not there.  I have just checked.
The layout of your posting suggests that you may be quoting from the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, to which I do not have access.  I've seen one once at a golf club about 60 miles away.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 23, 2013)

The rules are clear...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

Whether you, I or anyone likes them or not is another question.


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## woody69 (Jul 23, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			you seem to be confusing the clarity of the rules with how you think the rules should rule.

your post indicates that you clearly understand the rule - but equally clearly don't like, or agree with it.

you are not alone.

for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or t*he direction of the grain in the greens* or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.
		
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Can someone explain to me how knowing that the grain of the green heads exactly North North West (or whatever) might assist me?


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## ger147 (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			That was NOT in my edition of Rules of Golf 2012-2015. I searched for compass and it was not there.  I have just checked.
The layout of your posting suggests that you may be quoting from the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, to which I do not have access.  I've seen one once at a golf club about 60 miles away.
		
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If you are on the internet you have access to them.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The rules are clear...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

Whether you, I or anyone likes them or not is another question.
		
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 It is not whether I like them, but whether the R&A have done sufficient to make them clear to the average golfer.  Putting the statement 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."
in the rule book suggests that a smartphone can be used.  Until I looked I did not know mine had a compass, thinking it only got that information when using GPS in a navigation app.  Having looked into it, I cannot find a current phone that is without a compass.
So, in my humble opinion, smartphones should be out.

I admit I don't like the rule, but having found it, I will now comply.  There is no point playing golf unless you follow the rules.  BUT, I know that there will be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of golfers out there now, who will be using smartphones oblivious to the fact of their device's non-conformity.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

ger147 said:



			If you are on the internet you have access to them.
		
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Excellent.  Please would you tell me where?  When I searched I got results for the physical book.


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## ger147 (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			Excellent.  Please would you tell me where?  When I searched I got results for the physical book.
		
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On the R&A website.

They also, ironically enough, sell a phone app with all of the rules & decisions included.


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



_Since initially posting I have re-read the R&A November 2009  statement.  It specifically mentions a device with a compass but says that if this is only accessible via internet, it is OK. So if I have a mapping app like Open Street Maps or Sygic or TomTom, even if I do not use them, I cannot use my phone as a DMD.  If I only ever use google or bing maps, and have not downloaded any of their maps for offline usage, and don't use them while playing, I'm OK. _

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly".  Compass should be included in the specimen local rule, and clubs need to publicise it.  In effect, phones should be banned which would make it a lot clearer, and destroy an awful lot of businesses making and selling such apps.
		
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It's not the presence or absence of Apps. It's the presence or absence of hardware (or a combination of hardware/firmware/softare) that provides the function of compass (in this case). Iphone 3G does not have a built in compass - but an App can use GPS to simulate it! 3GS has a built in 'compass' - though not the traditional type as a magnet would screw things up internally!

It's only in competitions that these devices are banned. Plenty of use in non-comp rounds. Pros and Pro Caddies certainly use Bushnells etc in practice rounds even though they are not allowed in the Tournament!

The reference Duncan pointed to is one of the Decisions. If you check the online version of Rules, you should be able to see that - on your phone perhaps even.

Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

ger147 said:



			On the R&A website.

They also, ironically enough, sell a phone app with all of the rules & decisions included.
		
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Ah, it is not there as such, it is part of the "Rules Explorer" which I had taken to be an online version of the rules, because that is what is says it is.  I did not look further because I already had the pictured guides and had searched them.  BUT it is in fact also the Decisions.  So again, back to the original title of this thread - "I wish they would sort it out properly".


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## ger147 (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			Ah, it is not there as such, it is part of the "Rules Explorer" which I had taken to be an online version of the rules, because that is what is says it is.  I did not look further because I already had the pictured guides and had searched them.  BUT it is in fact also the Decisions.  So again, back to the original title of this thread - "I wish they would sort it out properly".
View attachment 6919

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So in fact it IS there as I said previously.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			It is not whether I like them, but whether the R&A have done sufficient to make them clear to the average golfer.  Putting the statement 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."
in the rule book suggests that a smartphone can be used.  Until I looked I did not know mine had a compass, thinking it only got that information when using GPS in a navigation app.  Having looked into it, I cannot find a current phone that is without a compass.
So, in my humble opinion, smartphones should be out.

I admit I don't like the rule, but having found it, I will now comply.  There is no point playing golf unless you follow the rules.  BUT, I know that there will be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of golfers out there now, who will be using smartphones oblivious to the fact of their device's non-conformity.
		
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Well that it is clear isn't it if you can't find a smartphone that doesn't have a compass, then they are all banned - simples


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 23, 2013)

I can't believe the ruling body of golf have introduced another rule for people to worry about that many people see as antiquated and pointless.

Still, it's another thing for those thinking of trying out the game to remember, make sure your socks are knee length and white, make sure you don't have business socks on with shorts, make sure your phone can not read atmospheric pressure.  Splendid.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!
		
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Exactly my point. But the R&A have that piece in the rules saying that you can use a smartphone if..., even though you can't find a current one that you can use.  Even my previous phone, an HTC HD2 from 2009 has a compass, with an app built in. I wish I had not sold my HP iPAQ hx4700 as it did not have any useful sensors apart from GPS. It could not access the internet except on wi-fi. That would have been compliant, and I used to use my Freecaddie Pro on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!
		
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^^^This :thup: Simple.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

ger147 said:



			So in fact it IS there as I said previously.
		
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I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise.  First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where.  But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.


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## ger147 (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise.  First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where.  But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.
		
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I never said anything about it being in the rules, that was someone else.

My first post was that if you were online you could access the decisions.  My second post pointed you to the website where you could find them.

I'm not sure how that was being less than helpful but whatever floats your boat.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise.  First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where.  But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.
		
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it is in the Rules, you quoted them - 

"The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that
might affect his play"

the Decisions are part of the Rules, and clarify issues raised when appropriate. In this case that a compass is equipment considered to gauge conditions that are considered to affect play.

another decision sets out in a little more detail some of these conditions "....gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors."


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			"I wish they would sort it out properly".
		
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Can you define what you actually mean by 'sort it out properly'?

As far as I'm concerned, they have!

Whether I agree ith hat they have decided is a different matter, but that applies to more than this!


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I never said anything about it being in the rules, that was someone else.

My first post was that if you were online you could access the decisions.  My second post pointed you to the website where you could find them.

I'm not sure how that was being less than helpful but whatever floats your boat.
		
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I apologise, having thought you were that other person who had been rather abrupt continuing in the same vein.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2013)

The rules are clear but the players aren't.  Is it then not incumbent upon a club to - whenever it can and in general - take active measures to prevent members inadvertently breaking the rules and either getting found out and disqualifiered or gaining a notional advantage over other competitors.  If the answer to this is yes then a simple measure would be to ban all smartphones - in club competitions.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Can you define what you actually mean by 'sort it out properly'?

As far as I'm concerned, they have!

Whether I agree ith hat they have decided is a different matter, but that applies to more than this!
		
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From hundreds of posts on many forums I have investigated today, there are far too many golfers unsure, or unaware.  I don't think it is sorted until that is rectified.  Until Saturday I was one of those, carrying a Rules of Golf book and app, and referring to it and thinking I had complied.  Until Saturday, neither I nor any of the dozen or so people I play with had been pulled up on it.  (Luckily before using the app., else I'd have been out, disqualified.)  Even then, I'd been pulled because I might get current temperatures on it.  I'd never in a million years thought that a compass would be banned, and that therefore having a compass sensor that I cannot access directly means my phone is banned.  I don't have a compass app.

What I mean is to change the wording of the paragraph which says you can use a smartphone.  And certainly if a compass is against the rules, mention that in the wording.  Just that one word would help, instead of it having a decision all to itself.

Appendix IV 5 could have another dot point that said Compass, or dot point 2 could say 
"     the    gauging    or    measuring    of    other    conditions    that    might    affect    play     
(e.g. compass, wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as 
temperature, humidity, etc.);"

In the final paragraph of that section on p162, either take out smartphone or at least to say something along the lines of 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In 
addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be 
no other sensors, features or applications inbuilt or installed on the device that, if used, would be in 
breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

Perhaps clubs should also help by publicising the rule at club competitions, and particularly at Open Competitions where golfers from other courses come and use an app on their phone because they do not know the course.


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## TheDashingBlade (Jul 23, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Well that it is clear isn't it if you can't find a smartphone that doesn't have a compass, then they are all banned - simples
		
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I have an old Android phone which I could customise by removing the weather and compass apps, remove SIM, even disable the cellular functionality (you'd need to to try and get 4 hours worth of GPS out of the thing). I am under the impression that as the hardware already exists on the phone that what I propose woud still fall foul of the laws.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			it is in the Rules, you quoted them - 

"The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that
might affect his play"

the Decisions are part of the Rules, and clarify issues raised when appropriate. In this case that a compass is equipment considered to gauge conditions that are considered to affect play.

another decision sets out in a little more detail some of these conditions "....gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors."
		
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This is where the misunderstandings arise, as I had not read it that way.  I have just checked and the foreword to the Decisions states
[FONT=&quot]The purpose of the Decisions on the Rules of Golf is to clarify matters that may not be entirely clear from the Rules of Golf. The Rules of Golf should be consulted in the first instance, but if a question cannot be answered by reference to the Rules, the solution may be found In the â€œDecisions bookâ€. 
We thought the question had been answered by reference to the rules, because none of us have ever thought that a compass might possibly be of use in playing golf.  We'd never in our wildest imagination consider the uses suggested in the question that gave rise to the decision.  In any event, the decision says 
A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.
It doesn't say it can't be used for direction finding.  Why did the R&A and the USGA specifically put those reasons for use into the decision?  They could have just put the question as 'Can I use a compass or a compass app during a round?'  But they didn't, they specified two weird situations and "some other similar reason", as if you could think of anything similar to those two ideas.
[/FONT]
 I don't think they help us poor day to day golfers.


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			From hundreds of posts on many forums I have investigated today, there are far too many golfers unsure, or unaware.  I don't think it is sorted until that is rectified.  Until Saturday I was one of those, carrying a Rules of Golf book and app, and referring to it and thinking I had complied.  Until Saturday, neither I nor any of the dozen or so people I play with had been pulled up on it.  (Luckily before using the app., else I'd have been out, disqualified.)  Even then, I'd been pulled because I might get current temperatures on it.  I'd never in a million years thought that a compass would be banned, and that therefore having a compass sensor that I cannot access directly means my phone is banned.  I don't have a compass app.

What I mean is to change the wording of the paragraph which says you can use a smartphone.  And certainly if a compass is against the rules, mention that in the wording.  Just that one word would help, instead of it having a decision all to itself.

Appendix IV 5 could have another dot point that said Compass, or dot point 2 could say 
"     the    gauging    or    measuring    of    other    conditions    that    might    affect    play     
(e.g. compass, wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as 
temperature, humidity, etc.);"

In the final paragraph of that section on p162, either take out smartphone or at least to say something along the lines of 
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a 
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application 
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In 
addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be 
no other sensors, features or applications inbuilt or installed on the device that, if used, would be in 
breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

Perhaps clubs should also help by publicising the rule at club competitions, and particularly at Open Competitions where golfers from other courses come and use an app on their phone because they do not know the course.
		
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*Sorry, but all you are stating there is that when you read the Rules you either didn't understand it properly or that you don't understand the capability of your Phone!*

The wording of the Rule etc. is quite deliberately general - so that it doesn't need to be amended in the future.

All you are really pointing out/discovering is that many folk don't actually know the Rules! Stick around here for a while and you will be astounded or maybe not) at some of the myths that otherwise sensible folk come out with!

With respect to the DMDs though. You were obviously caught in time. But another way Clubs could help is to post a very large sign in plain view to specify.....

There are currently no phones that act as DMDs that are compliant with the DMD Rules.

Consequently, use of Phones as DMD will render the user liable to Disqualification in any Club Competition.

Committee

Btw. There are a number of specific DMDs that are also non-compliant. One, very expensive one, even has a device that locks the offending feature, but that does not allow it to be compliant!

As posted earlier, you are welcome to use Smartfones as DMDs in  bounce/friendly games if you wish as there are plenty of other 'breaches' allowed there.


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## Fish (Jul 23, 2013)

This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.


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## Imurg (Jul 23, 2013)

Fish said:



			This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.
		
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I would probably change the word "some" to " most" if not "all" but other than that:thup:

I would also add that it is up to the user to determine and if necessary prove, conformity.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 23, 2013)

To anyone reading this thread who is thinking of having a go at golf, then please be reassured that the rules of golf are not that silly and complicated*. 

Yes you get the odd occasion where a pro playing the game for most of their life, their caddie and the match referee following the players do not know a rule.  And are then pulled up 4 hours after the event by some armchair saddo who knows the rules inside out and takes great pleasure in pointing out to people that they have broken a rule.  

But in general golfers are happy go lucky types who would cut someone a lot of slack, and in no way would accuse someone of cheating if they have mistakenly not understood one of the 3000 pages of rules around things like rabbit holes and being able to measure the pressure on your smart phone.  And it's a lie to say that there's nothing a golfer likes more than pointing out that someone has broken one of these rules, especially if it's in a comp.  



*  I lied.


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## Fellwalker (Jul 23, 2013)

Foxholer said:



*Sorry, but all you are stating there is that when you read the Rules you either didn't understand it properly or that you don't understand the capability of your Phone!*

The wording of the Rule etc. is quite deliberately general - so that it doesn't need to be amended in the future.
		
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It is not that I didn't understand the capabilities of my phone so much as that if I had, I'd never have thought of a compass being used to measure wind direction or the grain of a green!  Hence I had no reason to look further than the Rules as published in the Rules of Golf book.  Today, I have learned from the hundreds of forum posts about how misleading the rule book is, and that there is a clarification by the R&A.  The Decisions seems to be something all serious golfers who would like to comply need access to.  I have even found that the decision on the compass was in the previous Decisions book, but they've kept the Rules vague.


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2013)

Fish said:



			This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is *designed* to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.
		
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I'd change 'is designed' to 'has the inherent capability'!

And add my comment about there being no known examples of compliant phones.


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## rosecott (Jul 23, 2013)

Fellwalker said:



			Excellent.  Please would you tell me where?  When I searched I got results for the physical book.
		
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I find the Decisions on the USGA website more user-friendly.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 23, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I'd change 'is designed' to 'has the inherent capability'!

And add my comment about there being no known examples of compliant phones.
		
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if you did that you would have to get R&A approval for the LR - as it stands Fish's LR is the approved LR for DMD's, with the addition of the additional sentence.


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2013)

I find it hilarious that so many people who decried the use of belly putters and broom handle putters take the opposite view when it affects them personally.

The rule seems clear to me but there's so many people twisting and turning around the semantics of it...

Dedicated DMD = fine. Smartphone = not fine.


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## timd77 (Jul 24, 2013)

How ironic that the r&a prohibit the use of a smartphone app to determine distance, but have produced their own rules app that could be consulted during a round! :cheers:


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## duncan mackie (Jul 24, 2013)

timd77 said:



			How ironic that the r&a prohibit the use of a smartphone app to determine distance, but have produced their own rules app that could be consulted during a round! :cheers:
		
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1. they don't prohibit it. someone will produce a compliant handset at some point (one - other than the early iPhone model that complies - may even exist now)
2. don't understand the reference to irony, you are permitted to consult all sorts of 'apps' on an electronic device during a round.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 24, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			1. they don't prohibit it. someone will produce a compliant handset at some point (one - other than the early iPhone model that complies - may even exist now)
2. don't understand the reference to irony, you are permitted to consult all sorts of 'apps' on an electronic device during a round.
		
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The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			if you did that you would have to get R&A approval for the LR - as it stands Fish's LR is the approved LR for DMD's, with the addition of the additional sentence.
		
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Oops. As that's the specimen LR, that's 'fine'.

All I was doing was reflecting the Rule - that doesn't include the word 'Design'. In some cases, things aren't 'designed' to do things, but are later found to be capable of doing so. It's the sort of thing that Tax Accountants look for in new laws/regulations!

In this (extremely pedantic perhaps) case, a feature not designed to be a compass could well be harnessed to do so. hile it might not breach the LR, it would still breach the actual rules - which make no reference to 'design'.



HawkeyeMS said:



			The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?
		
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Because you are not *using the phone as a DMD*. It's not the Phone per se that is banned, it's its use as a DMD!

And if you are actually *using* the Compass, either inbuilt or through T'internet, then it comes under the general 14-3 Artificial Devices rule


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## duncan mackie (Jul 24, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?
		
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because the rules have been written accepting that you cannot ban people using phones (don't let's get into club practices, the simple situation in common law is that you can't - look at the issue in schools if you want to see more).  

however, if you use a phone as a DMD the rules applicable to DMD's apply to the phone.

if you look at the growth in non-conforming DMD development (and more scarily sales as well now) you can see exactly why such rules were put in place when DMD's were first implemented.

I'd probably go further to suggest that the general increase in the sales of non conforming golf equipment overall has to be a cause for concern. however, whilst the use of a heated head cover, or illegally groved wedge, is a matter of fact, the pushing of a button on an electronic device to activate a non conforming feature is seen as a 'risk' to far (even within a game that maintains it's fully based on an individuals responsibility to police themselves). Whilst the same button can exist, and be used, on a non-DMD device, it's only really their use in association with accurate distance information that creates a meaningful benefit (as many comment on this thread and others highlight - knowing the exact barometric pressure and temperature rather than just it's dry and hot, or I'm at 5000ft here, can easily be used by an electronic device to adjust and deliver exact playing distances in the same way as slope indicators for slopes.


Turn the whole thing around and you see that DMD's were permitted to enable the average player to play most courses with the best yardage chart that could be purchased - the rules around them are there to ensure it's that, and no more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			because the rules have been written accepting that you cannot ban people using phones (don't let's get into club practices, the simple situation in common law is that you can't - look at the issue in schools if you want to see more).  

however, if you use a phone as a DMD the rules applicable to DMD's apply to the phone.

if you look at the growth in non-conforming DMD development (and more scarily sales as well now) you can see exactly why such rules were put in place when DMD's were first implemented.

I'd probably go further to suggest that the general increase in the sales of non conforming golf equipment overall has to be a cause for concern. however, whilst the use of a heated head cover, or illegally groved wedge, is a matter of fact, the pushing of a button on an electronic device to activate a non conforming feature is seen as a 'risk' to far (even within a game that maintains it's fully based on an individuals responsibility to police themselves). Whilst the same button can exist, and be used, on a non-DMD device, it's only really their use in association with accurate distance information that creates a meaningful benefit (as many comment on this thread and others highlight - knowing the exact barometric pressure and temperature rather than just it's dry and hot, or I'm at 5000ft here, can easily be used by an electronic device to adjust and deliver exact playing distances in the same way as slope indicators for slopes.


Turn the whole thing around and you see that DMD's were permitted to enable the average player to play most courses with the best yardage chart that could be purchased - the rules around them are there to ensure it's that, and no more.
		
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And from a technogoly perspective I fully agree.  If the R&A were to let technology in for anything even vaguely otehr than distance measuring then the manufacturers would be there with all sorts of non-confiorming devices doing this and that - then raising issues of restraint of trade.  Now get enough non-conforming devices out there and players using them and getting away with it and we're stuffed - the cat would be out of the bag.


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## timd77 (Jul 24, 2013)

I was being a little tongue in cheek, but what I keep reading on here is that DMDs are baaaaad because you could also check your compass at the same time. What's to stop you quickly checking your compass at the same time as consulting the r&s rules app about x,y or? 

By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!

I had a look at dedicated range finders, garmin watches etc last night, and they're all a pricey bit of kit, especially bearing in mind the app I've got on my phone was free.

Anyway, sounds like we're flogging a dead horse here.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 24, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Now get enough non-conforming devices out there and players using them and getting away with it and we're stuffed - the cat would be out of the bag.
		
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there are already a huge number of NC Lazer DMD's already on the market - and the NC bit isn't exactly in large letters on the specs, if it exists at all!

for example 

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3-se.cfm

cunningly, rather than highlight that this isn't legal in competition play - but I take the inference from phrases like 'see what the tour players see' and it's name that it will be - they say nothing.

but for the legal version they add the little logo saying Legal for Competition Play

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3.cfm

I suspect many people would wouldn't realise the issues, and wouldn't be too happy being DQ'd for using one!


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2013)

timd77 said:



			By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!
		
Click to expand...

I agree! The only attribute I see as being helpful is 'slope'. Temperature I can feel. Wind I can feel - and it's probably not the same 50 yards away anyway, Humidity/Barometric data - Pah! Compass? Well, it's actually on the Course Guide! And if I can see the sun, I can work it out too.

But Rules is Rules - and Bushnell, Garmin and SkyCaddie stay in the Golf business!


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## stevie_r (Jul 24, 2013)

timd77 said:



 I was being a little tongue in cheek, but what I keep reading on here is that DMDs are baaaaad because you could also check your compass at the same time. What's to stop you quickly checking your compass at the same time as consulting the r&s rules app about x,y or? 

By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!

I had a look at dedicated range finders, garmin watches etc last night, and they're all a pricey bit of kit, especially bearing in mind the app I've got on my phone was free.

Anyway, sounds like we're flogging a dead horse here.


Click to expand...

If you hang around the forum long enough you will see it flogged about every 4 months


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## cookelad (Jul 24, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			If you hang around the forum long enough you will see it flogged about every 4 months 

Click to expand...

It's actually quite a surprise this hasn't been moved to the "For Sale" section!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			there are already a huge number of NC Lazer DMD's already on the market - and the NC bit isn't exactly in large letters on the specs, if it exists at all!

for example 

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3-se.cfm

cunningly, rather than highlight that this isn't legal in competition play - but I take the inference from phrases like 'see what the tour players see' and it's name that it will be - they say nothing.

but for the legal version they add the little logo saying Legal for Competition Play

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3.cfm

I suspect many people would wouldn't realise the issues, and wouldn't be too happy being DQ'd for using one!
		
Click to expand...

And before long all those manufacturing and owning a NC device will be pressurising the R&A to change the rules to allow their use - simply on the basis that many golfers own them and there will be 'big business' built around them that continued refusal to allow them would amount to restraint of trade etc etc.

And it doesn't matter that folk don't see what advantage knowing slope or windf direction etc would give them.  That is just not the point.  

The R&A have allowed devices for the purpose of measuring distance - and that is it.  We may not know how today - but if measurements of slope, humidity and wind direction etc are allowed on devices then the techologists will work out how to use them to give the golfer an advantage.

For instance: On the indoor digital practice faciliity you have spents hours and hours practicing and for each club you get recorded launch angles, ball spin etc. and within the facility you can key in wind speed and direction, temperature, humidity etc.  This is all uploaded to your Cloud storage.  

And so to the golf course and the 1st tee.  Your gizmo measures humidity, temperature, wind speed and direction.  First off it tells you which ball to use to match the conditions - balls have been designed to map onto conditions as well as you swing and ball striking characteristics - and which club to use given where you want to end up off the tee - and which tee peg to use - all based on data  downloaded from the practice data held in your Cloud storage.  The gizmo then tells you your aim point as it has a very detailed course planner that includes aim points (including aim pioints at features not actually on the course).

So your gizmo tells you the ball you should use, the tee peg you should use, the club you should use and your aim point and whether to use your full, three-quarter or half swing.


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## pbrown7582 (Jul 24, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And before long all those manufacturing and owning a NC device will be pressurising the R&A to change the rules to allow their use - simply on the basis that many golfers own them and there will be 'big business' built around them that continued refusal to allow them would amount to restraint of trade etc etc.

And it doesn't matter that folk don't see what advantage knowing slope or windf direction etc would give them.  That is just not the point.  

The R&A have allowed devices for the purpose of measuring distance - and that is it.  We may not know how today - but if measurements of slope, humidity and wind direction etc are allowed on devices then the techologists will work out how to use them to give the golfer an advantage.
		
Click to expand...

Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.
		
Click to expand...

He was on one of the 'Undercover CEO' programs and stated something along the lines of 'It's getting harder and harder to sell customers gear they don't need'!

That demonstrates, at least to me, the approach TM has!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.
		
Click to expand...

Well there are a few of debates - (1) whether DMDs , GPS thingies. smartphones with apps etc should be allowed in club comps *at all* - (2) which measurements these gizmos can provide should be allowed to be used - (3) whether switching off apps on smartphones is sufficient to make them compliant as DMDs.

And there are probaby more

All I'm saying on issue (2) is that if you are allowed to carrty devices that provide all sort of info other than distance then though it may not be of much use *today*, some smart technologist will work out a way of making it all useful.  It is essential the R&A hold the line on *Only distance measurement available on a device - Absolutely nothing else* - else they are opening things up for a technological free for all.


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## User 105 (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers released each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!


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## cookelad (Jul 24, 2013)

Westy said:



			I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers TaylorMade release each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!
		
Click to expand...

Corrected that for you!


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## User 105 (Jul 24, 2013)

lol, spot on


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2013)

Westy said:



			I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers released each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!
		
Click to expand...

They have!  It's just manufacturers are trying to get so many of their multi-function NC gizmo sold that clubs will have problems telling their users they can't be used.  And golfers are buying them expecting to be allowed to use them either now or eventually - then kicking up a fuss when they are not.  What a waste of money - indeed.


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## sev112 (Jul 24, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So your gizmo tells you the ball you should use, the tee peg you should use, the club you should use and your aim point and whether to use your full, three-quarter or half swing.
		
Click to expand...

Thes gizmos are already allowed
They are called caddies
Why shouldn't this info be provided by gizmo if itis already allowed by caddy?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2013)

sev112 said:



			Thes gizmos are already allowed
They are called caddies
Why shouldn't this info be provided by gizmo if itis already allowed by caddy?
		
Click to expand...

Because we can't all afford a caddy...

and a caddy won't be able to match your practice game to the conditions of the day - and match the specific ball for you to use on each hole according to the conditions at that precise moment - where the ball is matched to your detailed practice data gathered through practice in simulated weather conditions of all sorts.


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## Foxholer (Jul 24, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because we can't all afford a caddy...
		
Click to expand...

You missed the point! You are actually in agreement!

And a Caddie also isn't allowed to use Compass. thermometer, Anemometer, Altimeter or Barometer either!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2013)

Sorry - I think you missed my point.

If you relax rules beyond absolutely *only* distance being available to the golfer then technology will be developed to use it - even if today we cant see how it could be used to make a difference.

The player or caddy would have access to all the data that future indoor practice facilities will be able to gather about your shots - played under a whole variety of simulated weather conditions.  Golf ball technology will be developed to take advantage of the link up between practice data gathered and held in the cloud and conditions as you stand on a tee or at any place on the course - so fior instance you will carry a whole raft of different golf balls from which on each hole your technology tells you which one to use.  The technology also determines the absolutely correct aimpoint according to ball and club it tells you to use and the wind speed and direction.  

After every shot you play data is gathered about your swing, ball strike characteristics and results and that data is uploaded to the cloud to update the practice data so that the data used to guide you on every shot is updated on an ongoing basis to reflect how you are playing on that day.

Couldn't/wouldn't happen?  Why not - open the technologvy pandora's box.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I think you missed my point.

If you relax rules beyond absolutely *only* distance being available to the golfer then technology will be developed to use it - even if today we cant see how it could be used to make a difference.

The player or caddy would have access to all the data that future indoor practice facilities will be able to gather about your shots - played under a whole variety of simulated weather conditions.  Golf ball technology will be developed to take advantage of the link up between practice data gathered and held in the cloud and conditions as you stand on a tee or at any place on the course - so fior instance you will carry a whole raft of different golf balls from which on each hole your technology tells you which one to use.  The technology also determines the absolutely correct aimpoint according to ball and club it tells you to use and the wind speed and direction.  

After every shot you play data is gathered about your swing, ball strike characteristics and results and that data is uploaded to the cloud to update the practice data so that the data used to guide you on every shot is updated on an ongoing basis to reflect how you are playing on that day.

Couldn't/wouldn't happen?  Why not - open the technologvy pandora's box.
		
Click to expand...

personally I already play this way - if I hit my first 9 iron 146 carry I tend to adjust my distances with the remaining irons from there on in......although it's even better than that because the warm up range runs parallel to the first hole so the days conditions are pretty much dialled in straight away (although they change at times!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			personally I already play this way - if I hit my first 9 iron 146 carry I tend to adjust my distances with the remaining irons from there on in......although it's even better than that because the warm up range runs parallel to the first hole so the days conditions are pretty much dialled in straight away (although they change at times!)
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you do - and it takes experience, time and a good understanding of your own game to be able to adjust it according to conditions.  My crystal ball gazing takes away the need to develop that experience - technology will do it for you.  Just like estimating distance.


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## haplesshacker (Jul 25, 2013)

Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2013)

haplesshacker said:



			Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.
		
Click to expand...

I like the above - a clear and logical thought through argument - not questioning the rule or limitations but seeking to nail it.

I myself would never allow a DMD to give any player-specific guidance - such as club to use.  I'd have that as an over-riding and definiing principle for such devices.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 25, 2013)

You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions.  But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on.  Very poor golf, must try harder...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions.  But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on.  Very poor golf, must try harder...
		
Click to expand...

Could try taking beta-blockers to slow your heart down so that 3footer to win the match doesn't have to be holed with your heart pumping out of your chest?


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2013)

haplesshacker said:



			Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.
		
Click to expand...

no issue with rambling , but I completely disagree with just about everything you say in this, and that's before the confusion it adds back in areas!

a few examples

1. the issue with weather 'apps' is a complete red herring. Unless the device is capable of delivering 'spot' conditions, in the same way as a physical sensor at that point detecting temperature, wind, pressure (ie For the purpose of gauging or measuring ..... conditions that might affect his play) it's neither an issue for a DMD or as a device being used for that purpose during the round. Put simply, you can get the general weather situation in the area whilst playing without breaking 14-3.
2. with the exception of applications that mimic a compass from GPS data when moving I fail to see how an application can create a problem without a hardware sensor; it's these that cause the breach not the software. How much more clarity can anyone possibly want? 

"*the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.*" + a smartphone used as a DMD is considered to be a DMD leaves no room for doubt; just endless debate as to why.

I'm aware of one, old model, smartphone that doesn't have either temperature, attitude, pressure or compass sensors - if there were others then I'm sure forums, clubs etc would quickly 'list' them!

I've already posted an explanation of my understanding of why the DMD rules are different with regard to have rather than use, I do agree with you that the rules would be easier if they didn't have this differential but I only see more reasin to retain it today than when it was first implemented. 

As to the areas you raise under 1-6, these are all covered clearly within the current rules.

All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like it the way it is.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions.  But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on.
		
Click to expand...


another example of a complete falsehood that will probably create a myth somewhere within a week......


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 25, 2013)

I must admit I'm a bit confused myself.  So are you saying I can no longer take one of this on the course with me now?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 25, 2013)

And surely you are not telling me this is now banned???


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## haplesshacker (Jul 25, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			no issue with rambling , but I completely disagree with just about everything you say in this, and that's before the confusion it adds back in areas!

a few examples

1. the issue with weather 'apps' is a complete red herring. Unless the device is capable of delivering 'spot' conditions, in the same way as a physical sensor at that point detecting temperature, wind, pressure (ie For the purpose of gauging or measuring ..... conditions that might affect his play) it's neither an issue for a DMD or as a device being used for that purpose during the round. Put simply, you can get the general weather situation in the area whilst playing without breaking 14-3.
2. with the exception of applications that mimic a compass from GPS data when moving I fail to see how an application can create a problem without a hardware sensor; it's these that cause the breach not the software. How much more clarity can anyone possibly want? 

"*the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.*" + a smartphone used as a DMD is considered to be a DMD leaves no room for doubt; just endless debate as to why.

I'm aware of one, old model, smartphone that doesn't have either temperature, attitude, pressure or compass sensors - if there were others then I'm sure forums, clubs etc would quickly 'list' them!

I've already posted an explanation of my understanding of why the DMD rules are different with regard to have rather than use, I do agree with you that the rules would be easier if they didn't have this differential but I only see more reasin to retain it today than when it was first implemented. 

As to the areas you raise under 1-6, these are all covered clearly within the current rules.

All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like it the way it is.
		
Click to expand...


I agree about the weather app situation. I've raced yachts most of my life, so if there's one thing I understand it's the forecast verses on the spot weather info. The whole weather thing is a red herring. So it's irrelevant. Though not according to the R&A as I understand it. Dumb ruling. No phone I'm aware off can give you on the spot weather info for that moment in time.

The compass issue is another red herring. If you wear an analogue watch, you can find the compass bearings anyway. An old boy scout trick that's easy enough to learn. So another dumb ruling.

My proposal would simply clarify what functions you are allowed to use, with any device. Nothing could be simpler. The rules are non sensical at the moment.

"All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like the way it is" 

Rather sweeping statement. Maybe it's the flat earth society that don't like change, or those that have coughed up Â£300 for a dedicated device and don't want to see it as a waste of money when free apps are available. Lobbyists can come in the form of manufactures, and users of dedicated devices.

Golf clubs (the bats) are controlled by certain criteria set by the R&A. As are golf balls. I'm merely proposing that the same logic be applied to DMDs and the technology. How is that even more confusing?

After all, If you have your smart phone on you, you have the same potential to break the rules. whether you're using a smart phone as a DMD or not. The current ruling makes no sense. Regardless of whether we as individuals agree with the use of smart phones or not.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2013)

haplesshacker said:



			1.The whole weather thing is a red herring. So it's irrelevant. Though not according to the R&A as I understand it. 

2.The compass issue is another red herring. If you wear an analogue watch, you can find the compass bearings anyway. An old boy scout trick that's easy enough to learn. *So another dumb ruling*.

2. Maybe it's the flat earth society that don't like change, 

3. Golf clubs (the bats) are controlled by certain criteria set by the R&A. As are golf balls. I'm merely proposing that the same logic be applied to DMDs and the technology. How is that even more confusing?
		
Click to expand...

1. so having agreed, you throught this unsubstantiated 'understanding' to keep the issue live - please quote the relevant section that creates this understanding.

2. the confusion isn't created by change, it's created by people who don't agree with something - as I refered to in my sweeping generalisation, and as you have classically supported in your response.

3. I said the opposite - that such a move would make things easier to understand; I went on to explain why such a simplification would be more inappropriate now, then when it was first introduced (by reference to other posts in this thread).


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			I must admit I'm a bit confused myself.  So are you saying I can no longer take one of this on the course with me now? 

View attachment 6942

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where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.


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## Colin L (Jul 25, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing......
		
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..... just don't make a stroke at your ball with it.


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## palindromicbob (Jul 25, 2013)

haplesshacker said:



			Lobbyists can come in the form of manufactures, ...
		
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If you were a fly on the wall in the back rooms I think this would probably be a major reason.


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## haplesshacker (Jul 25, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.
		
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You're not in any breech of the rule by having your smart phone in your bag, or pocket. (I know you weren't specifically referring to this, but it's an interesting point.) But you are if you use one as a DMD, even if as a DMD it does not use the compass or other banned capabilities.

This is why it's confusing. It's not logical.

As to the other issues you raised with my reply earlier. I think I'll agree to disagree. My original post was quite clear, and all I offered was a solution. I'm really not fussed if you like it or not.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 25, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.
		
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Please note that not all of the stuff I post is to be taken that seriously or literally.  Especially the posts asking if I can take 3 foot barometers round a golf course with me.


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## Airlie_Andy (Jul 25, 2013)

Just to clarify

1. Can I have my smartphone with on the course?

2. Can I use said smartphone to say check my messages or emails or perhaps play candy crush while we have the inevitable 10 minute wait on the tee?

3. Am I therefore trusted to not use the smartphone to access illegal information whilst on the course?


4. Can I have a dedicated DMD in my bag? 

5. Can I use said DMD to give my distances to set points on the course?

6. What is the difference between using my smartphone on the course as a DMD and being trusted not to access illegal info as opposed to using my smartphone on the course but not as a DMD but also having a dedicated DMD to use? 

I can't help but feel this all comes down to the big companies lobbying to keep anything but a dedicated DMD illegal in order to protect the business.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 25, 2013)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Just to clarify

1. Can I have my smartphone with on the course?

2. Can I use said smartphone to say check my messages or emails or perhaps play candy crush while we have the inevitable 10 minute wait on the tee?

3. Am I therefore trusted to not use the smartphone to access illegal information whilst on the course?


4. Can I have a dedicated DMD in my bag? 

5. Can I use said DMD to give my distances to set points on the course?

6. What is the difference between using my smartphone on the course as a DMD and being trusted not to access illegal info as opposed to using my smartphone on the course but not as a DMD but also having a dedicated DMD to use? 

I can't help but feel this all comes down to the big companies lobbying to keep anything but a dedicated DMD illegal in order to protect the business.
		
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1) Yes
2) Yes, playing Candy Crush on the tee whilst watching a 26 handicapper wait 5 mins before trying to hit a 250 yard 3 wood onto the green and duff it 70 yards into the rough is mandatory
3) No you are not, you cheat
4) No but you can have a WMD
5) As long as it does not explode and cause mass destruction
6) None, but as has already been pointed out it's probable that you and everyone else are cheats, and will therefore use your smart phone to look the barometric pressure and gain an unfair advantage.  So the ruling body have to make up yet another complicated set of rules to add to the 47265 other ones which make this game so easy to understand.


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## mefromhere (Jul 25, 2013)

It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!


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## haplesshacker (Jul 25, 2013)

mefromhere said:



			It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.
		
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I was going to make this point earlier, but felt that I'd said enough!

This is another reason why the current rule makes no sense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2013)

...the rules have to be defined absolutely clearly and set in stone now because it is not just what other measurements etc that you can get from a device or devices today, and what you cannot do with them today, that matters but what clever technologists will devise in the future.  *That* is what I was trying to get at with my example.  

Just by saying that I can't get any advantage out of measurements of such as prevailiing weather conditions, ground slope or compass bearings today means absolutely nothing for the future.  Write the rules in a way that allows devices to provide such meaurements then before long - maybe not tomorrow or next year - a way will be found to use them to advantage - 100% guaranteed.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2013)

haplesshacker said:



			I was going to make this point earlier, but felt that I'd said enough!

This is another reason why the current rule makes no sense.
		
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I've also said enough on this topic, so I will also bow out.

I've never said that the reason for differentiating the rules for DMD isn't worthy of debate on it's own, and mefromhere makes a god point. Earlier in this thread I set out my understanding of why it was introduced this way, and included equipment examples to illustrate the point (not smartphones!).

My underlying message remains - *the rules are clear; but some people don't agree with them.*  This in itself is hardly groundbreaking news as you can add a whole load of other golf, or even club, rules to which this applies.

What I have said


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2013)

Am oot as well.  I don't care that much whether DMD and smartphone users get their knickers in a twist over this as I'd rather have them not allowed at all in comps.  So my battle is lost.


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## Rooter (Jul 26, 2013)

so 25 pages in. can i use my golfshot app on my iphone in a comp or not?


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2013)

Rooter said:



			so 25 pages in. can i use my golfshot app on my iphone in a comp or not? 

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No!

That's been stressed several/many times.


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2013)

mefromhere said:



			It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!
		
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I've always resolved that query, which is valid, by considering whether incidents are planned, accidental or merely part of a round of golf. The penalties involved also seem to reflect this, single penalties (golfing incidents), multiple (but max-ed) penalties (accidental ones such as more than 14 clubs) or DQ (for planned ones such as use of non-conforming equipment).

Btw. Dislodging a single leaf (or even multiple leaves) from a tree on a practice swing isn't necessarily a breach! See Decision 13-2/0.5 here http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=99016EEB-B150-44D9-B4B4-53C2AF99E38A


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## Region3 (Jul 27, 2013)

mefromhere said:



			It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will *call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing* that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!
		
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Another myth 

Edit - I knew I should have read the rest of the thread before I posted!


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## Region3 (Jul 27, 2013)

As others - especially Duncan - have said, the rules are clear.

The logic behind the rule isn't so clear, but that's not the important bit.

I don't understand WHY I'm not allowed to do 80 on the motorway when my brakes, tyres and steering are 10 times better than the cars of the day when the limit was introduced.
I know I'm not allowed to though, so don't.


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## Joff (Jul 27, 2013)

Region3 said:



			As others - especially Duncan - have said, the rules are clear.

The logic behind the rule isn't so clear, but that's not the important bit.

I don't understand WHY I'm not allowed to do 80 on the motorway when my brakes, tyres and steering are 10 times better than the cars of the day when the limit was introduced.
I know I'm not allowed to though, so don't.
		
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 Cars were lighter then. Stopping distances about the same ;-)


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## Region3 (Jul 27, 2013)

Joff said:



			Cars were lighter then. Stopping distances about the same ;-)
		
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Sort of proves my point.

It would be quite easy to have a discussion about the pros and cons of raising the speed limit, but it changes nothing.

Some people agree with the limit and stick to it.
Some don't agree but stick to it.
Some don't agree and break it.

There is no confusion about what the limit actually is.


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## sev112 (Jul 27, 2013)

I've loved watching this thread , I have very little to add to it.
At the end of the day,it doesn't matter what information a gizmo gives me, I still have to hit the shot.  
And as I mentioned before, everything that DMds and smartphones currently give you, and in the future might be able to give you, are already given (to the pros at least) by their caddy who knows the prevailing wind direction , slope, how far they hit a 3/4 7iron on a parkland ourselves where the humidity and temperature is what itis.

Ban caddies I say.  Make people carry their own clubs or push their own trolleys


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2013)

sev112 said:



			And as I mentioned before, everything that DMds and smartphones currently give you,* and in the future* might be able to give you, *are already given (to the pros at least) by their caddy *who knows the prevailing wind direction , slope, how far they hit a 3/4 7iron on a parkland ourselves where the humidity and temperature is what it is
		
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And it is this that the error is made - as for the future these statement together are just not true - or more accurately - we just don't know.  

However - as I posted earlier - my very strong inclining is that a players very detailed practice data gathered under a variety of simulated weather and playing conditions will be 'stored in the cloud'  Technology will be developed to integrate this practice data with detailed data about the player's game *on the day* combined with all the weather, play and lie conditions prevalent at any point in time during a round to provide detailed guidance to the player on all aspects of the shot he is about to play.  A caddy on his own cannot do this in a logical and structured way and would not be able to do it in future in way that technology will be able to do so.  That's the risk - leave the door slightly ajar today and it will be barged open by technology in the not too distant future and shutting it may prove to be impossible.


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2013)

Intersting thread. 
Mr Hogan is trying to turn back the tide, and while perfectly entitled to stick to his guns, doesnt for me make any cogent case that supports his stance (yes, yes, building a stance is against the rules!)

DMDs are here to stay - the bottom line is people want them becuase they make the game more fun and convenient for the overwhelming majority of golfers who play without a human caddy, without conferring an advantage for actually hitting the ball. A human caddy certainly contributes more to helping a player than a DMD will.

The core of the problem is that the R&A has slipped up in legislating for them on two points.

First, they chickened out of taking the full decision. The local rule element was a cop out fudge. Local rules are to allow exactly that : 'local' rules to be implemented to cater for particularities of individual courses that do not apply to all : staked tree drops for courses with loads of young trees, stones in bunkers, obliging replay of a shot that hits overhead wires, droping zones etc. The DMD decision is not course dependant and should never have been put in that category.

Second, the technology moves fast and they probably didnt really understand it. The effort to prohibit devices that have other facilites than simple distance measurement was too impractical to implement well : bad law is no law. Of course the average golfer sees no problem in having a device with weather or compass facility on it - the great majority have no use for those functions helping their play anyway, even if they were permitted to use them. The idea that you can have a compass in you pocket or a 15th club in your back declared out of play, yet you cannot use a DMD that could have weather app on it is clearly nonsense. 

I expect the R&A will clear it all up in the near future. DMDs will be universally legal. There will be no distinction of what devices can be used, however the rule will prohibit non distance functions from being used under the same trust that prohibits us using our toe in the rough to improve the lie.

(btw, mentioned by someone that they should be legal for casual/friendly golf, but not for competition. Whats that about, if its friendly golf you can play whatever rules you like. Noone cares).


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## sev112 (Jul 28, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it is this that the error is made - as for the future these statement together are just not true - or more accurately - we just don't know.  

However - as I posted earlier - my very strong inclining is that a players very detailed practice data gathered under a variety of simulated weather and playing conditions will be 'stored in the cloud'  Technology will be developed to integrate this practice data with detailed data about the player's game *on the day* combined with all the weather, play and lie conditions prevalent at any point in time during a round to provide detailed guidance to the player on all aspects of the shot he is about to play.  A caddy on his own cannot do this in a logical and structured way and would not be able to do it in future in way that technology will be able to do so.  That's the risk - leave the door slightly ajar today and it will be barged open by technology in the not too distant future and shutting it may prove to be impossible.
		
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Ok , friendly last disagreement
A caddy already does this for the pros - it is what they spend their time looking at their book/notes, and look at the trees, and take into account temperature, they know they arson a side hill/sloping lie, and they have all the details of all the distances that the pro hitsbwithball his clubs, full shots half shots the lot .
Irrespective of your confidence that computers will get better at this in the future, it is already allowed at the moment, and the reason why Big Phil paid his caddy circa 100K for last weekend's work


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## duncan mackie (Jul 28, 2013)

Backsticks said:



			The core of the problem is that the R&A has slipped up in legislating for them on two points.

First, they chickened out of taking the full decision. The local rule element was a cop out fudge. Local rules are to allow exactly that : 'local' rules to be implemented to cater for particularities of individual courses that do not apply to all : staked tree drops for courses with loads of young trees, stones in bunkers, obliging replay of a shot that hits overhead wires, droping zones etc. The DMD decision is not course dependant and should never have been put in that category.

Second, the technology moves fast and they probably didnt really understand it. The effort to prohibit devices that have other facilites than simple distance measurement was too impractical to implement well : bad law is no law. Of course the average golfer sees no problem in having a device with weather or compass facility on it - the great majority have no use for those functions helping their play anyway, even if they were permitted to use them. The idea that you can have a compass in you pocket or a 15th club in your back declared out of play, yet you cannot use a DMD that could have weather app on it is clearly nonsense.
		
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This is standard Rules practice where there may be situations where the application of a Rule is considered inappropriate; the last example related to reducing the penalty for being late but arriving within 5 mins which moved from committee option to rule last time round. Whether you believe that taking into account where possible the wishes of the major professional tours is chickening out or not is a seperate debate, but this is the only mechanism whereby they can exclude their use.

On your second point, it's quite the opposite and the development of the NC DMD devices is showing the wisdom of the implementation. 

A huge part of me would like to believe that your expectations for the future are matched by the integrity of players. However experience has shown that many who would never use a leather wedge will freely use their own interpretation of other rules without considering it really cheating, as well as the odd individuals who will do anything they feel they can get away with.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm not trying to turn back the tide - the tide is in and Distancer Measuring Devices are allowed.  All I am saying is that I think that the R&A should be very wary about allowing devices that provide other information to the player on thegrounds that today the player can't make a lot of use of it.  

And on the caddy front - I'm not that bothered about pro golf - my concern is for club competions.  I for one don't really wish to have to go down the route of getting a gizmo in the future because the gizmo of the future effectively becomes a super personal caddy.  At the moment the DMD gives distance measurements that I as a player could garner in other ways - myself - and on the day.  I'd rather the player made decisions rather than have technology make all the decisions for him.


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