# Upper & Lower Body Disassociation



## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

After a video review of the backwing in my last lesson, aside from a small issue I'm correcting, he's happy to now move on to transition from back swing to down swing. In my back swing I have a good head position (Very still and centred), good posture and have a lot of width (... Apparently) in my backswing.

Moving now into transition. As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, *before* my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"_In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice_."

I have been given a couple of drills that _appear to be working_ but the change is far from ingrained yet.

I have a question for you knowledgable folk:

Is this that can cause the illusion of a 'pause' at the transition between back and down swings or is their a physical 'stop' at the top?

I hit the range yesterday to try and make a start on the changes. I it the ball, probably, the best I have in weeks, if not months with a much more consistent flight. The last ball I hit, I really felt my lower half turning forward, but my arms were still at the top.  This gave a fantastic flight, great trajectory and mucho distance :lol: 

A second question:

Does anyone know of any current tour pro's that have video recorded on YouTube that do this?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this :thup:


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2014)

Fancy title for a description of 'flexibility'! 

I believe Rory has one of the most noticeable hip movements, but not sure whether his sequencing is what you want,

Dustin Johnson may also be a candidate, but there's a lot to disregard in his swing too.

I keep going to most of the South Africans as 'classic' model swings.

And you could always ask you Pro for his recommendation of one to use.

Not something my lazy old body has a great affinity with, so Good Luck!


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Fancy title for a description of 'flexibility'! 

I believe Rory has one of the most noticeable hip movements, but not sure whether his sequencing is what you want,

Dustin Johnson may also be a candidate, but there's a lot to disregard in his swing too.

I keep going to most of the South Africans as 'classic' model swings.

And you could always ask you Pro for his recommendation of one to use.

Not something my lazy old body has a great affinity with, so Good Luck!
		
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Thanks Foxy :thup:

I'm only really interested in the brief second they go through transition. Forget DJ's bowed wrist ot Rory's bonkers flexability.

My Pro suggested Freddie Couples as an example, probably because his swing is so smooth.

Despite my size. (6ft and 15 stone) I'm pretty flexible. During the lesson when we were moving onto this my pro had me do a few things to test flexability and was more than satisfied I could do this


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## Doh (Jan 28, 2014)

They were looking at Gary Woodland's swing on sky the other day and said he did this another was Mark Lishman.(spelling)


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

Doh said:



			They were looking at Gary Woodland's swing on sky the other day and said he did this another was Mark Lishman.(spelling)
		
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Cracking shout on Gary Woodland!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwwyjFPoS38

Thanks for that Doh :thup:


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## Doh (Jan 28, 2014)

Your very welcome.:thup:


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## London mike 61 (Jan 28, 2014)

I believe the ' pause ' at the top is caused by the raising of the left heel in the backswing and as the downswing is about to begin , the left heel comes down in a matter of a second turning the hips ever so slightly thus giving the impression that there is a pause. I hope this makes sense.


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## standrew (Jan 28, 2014)

Sequence involves movement from legs-hips-shoulders-arms-hands. Rory is the best example on tour, but he doesnt fire each part individually (check out arnold palmer somax analysis video). Sequence is pretty much the main thing i concentrate on in my swing, and i find i get crap consistency if i fail to do it. Here are two excercises i do everyday

- stand up with arms stretched out horizontally. Just turn your upper body fully to the right then back and to the left. Easy.

- (more tricky) stand in a star stance-turn right to your max as you do in the golf swing, making sure left knee is also turned. Then fire knee, hips, shoulder then arms. 

You probably will want to try doing lower body alone first, because its a bit tricky and lower body is generally the crucial mising bit. I work on getting the most seperation between all parts. This give you more consistency and a fair bit extra distance.

Hope this helps.


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

standrew said:



			Sequence involves movement from legs-hips-shoulders-arms-hands. Rory is the best example on tour, but he doesnt fire each part individually (check out arnold palmer somax analysis video). Sequence is pretty much the main thing i concentrate on in my swing, and i find i get crap consistency if i fail to do it. Here are two excercises i do everyday

- stand up with arms stretched out horizontally. Just turn your upper body fully to the right then back and to the left. Easy.

- (more tricky) stand in a star stance-turn right to your max as you do in the golf swing, making sure left knee is also turned. Then fire knee, hips, shoulder then arms. 

You probably will want to try doing lower body alone first, because its a bit tricky and lower body is generally the crucial mising bit. I work on getting the most seperation between all parts. This give you more consistency and a fair bit extra distance.

Hope this helps.
		
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Thanks for the exercises StA :thup:

My pro has me working through 2 drills, both can be done with, or without a club so I have the option to do them at home and at the range. Early days but the signs are encouraging


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Thanks Foxy :thup:

I'm only really interested in the brief second they go through transition. Forget DJ's bowed wrist ot Rory's bonkers flexability.

My Pro suggested Freddie Couples as an example, probably because his swing is so smooth.

Despite my size. (6ft and 15 stone) I'm pretty flexible. During the lesson when we were moving onto this my pro had me do a few things to test flexability and was more than satisfied I could do this 

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Actually, I was wrong! DJ is not an example. Freddie certainly is though.

TGM actually have a training aid for that sequencing! Used it at The Shire one Saturday when we were waiting on the verdict about whether course would open (it didn't!). It looks like a twisted, bent, sawn-off trolley (the U bit) with a training grip! You swing back so that the U bit sits on your shoulder; try to keep it there while turning/sliding the hips; then drop/push down the hands etc......


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## Khamelion (Jan 28, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			I believe the ' pause ' at the top is caused by the raising of the left heel in the backswing and as the downswing is about to begin , the left heel comes down in a matter of a second turning the hips ever so slightly thus giving the impression that there is a pause. I hope this makes sense.
		
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The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.

If you are flexible enough, you should be able to rotate around your core and have your feet stay firmly planted.

I've just been through this in my lessons and after getting myself to keep my feet stable my ball striking became a lot more solid.

On the OP point of disassociation, this is exactly where I'm at in my swing development. My teacher has my what is effectively dropping the club so that the head is behind me, this makes my left shoulder rise slightly and give the illusion that my downswing has started by pushing my left hip forward toward the target.

He has got me to try and keep my left shoulder point to slightly right of my target line and keep it there for what feels like an eternity, at the same time my right hip is pushing forward and hips are turning to face the target, then naturally my shoulders follow round with the club coming into impact and follow through with full extension.

I believe the pause at the top of the swing is the motion of the club dropping in behind your waist, it's not really a pause just shift in direction which looks like a slight pause.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.

If you are flexible enough, you should be able to rotate around your core and have your feet stay firmly planted.

I've just been through this in my lessons and after getting myself to keep my feet stable my ball striking became a lot more solid.
		
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Absolutely nothing wrong with the left heel coming off the ground! As long as it gets back down pretty quick on the Downswing!

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left  heel is what SHOULD happen!

Keeping the left heel on the ground is a good way for a swayer to get out of that habit (and rotate properly) though!


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## Jimbooo (Jan 28, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.
		
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Tell that to Jack!


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Moving now into transition. As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, *before* my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"_In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice_."

I have been given a couple of drills that _appear to be working_ but the change is far from ingrained yet.

I have a question for you knowledgable folk:

Is this that can cause the illusion of a 'pause' at the transition between back and down swings or is their a physical 'stop' at the top?

I hit the range yesterday to try and make a start on the changes. I it the ball, probably, the best I have in weeks, if not months with a much more consistent flight. The last ball I hit, I really felt my lower half turning forward, but my arms were still at the top.  This gave a fantastic flight, great trajectory and mucho distance :lol: 

A second question:

Does anyone know of any current tour pro's that have video recorded on YouTube that do this?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this :thup:
		
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Hey Gareth, newbie to the forum here, but not new to golf.

In answer to your 1st question in short is, in every proper and good golf swing the transition to the forward swing has to start from the ground up. It's also really the answer to your second question too in a way.

Every elite golfer whether they are Cat 1 am, or tour pro will do this. A RH golfer will start with weight into the ball of the left foot into the ground (it's that ground force that provides in the end the source of swing speed as it becomes an anchor for the hips to clear round then then torso followed by the shoulders arms hands shaft club head. (groundforce often overlooked but is key to produce speed through impact, friction anchor point in the inside of the right foot going back, then left foot starting the transition: if you tried a golf swing without that groundforce friction the club head wouldn't be moving very quickly at all, a swing on ice for instance taking the assumption theoretically you could stay upright and make one would produce very little stored energy/speed through impact! as there's nothing to brace against.)
Think of it as a relay race with every bit hitting a point where they pass on energy to next which culminates with optimum speed through impact. Lead foot, lead knee, lead hip, hips, torso, sternum, shoulders, arms. hands, shaft, finally club head has all the sequenced produced energy through impact.
It is indeed this start of the transition in the left foot, moves left knee back, hip slightly towards target (couple inches max) before the hip turns and clears making space for arms hands and club to come through square to provide proper impact conditions. 
This start at the left foot and lower body is why there sometimes appears to be a pause at the top, as you suggest it's an illusion really as movement has started down below and the pause is just the change of direction from going up to coming down, it's more evident in a smoother swinger rather than a fast tempo say like Nick Price but it's there still, it's just more difficult to see clearly in real time.
Often a Pro will ask a player making a swing change to feel the new move through an exaggeration of it, as often it takes this to effect a good change at all, "feel to real" often what we may feel we do is not what we are doing as anyone being shown their swing on vid will know.
If say a player has either been starting the swing back (transition) with the shoulders upper body hands and arms which throws the club out on the wrong path with all the then intendant repercussions that has, or if they've been starting the lower body and upper body at the same time therefore not having the 'relay race' and the passing on of energy bit by bit to, in the end product, optimum club-head speed. (shoulders of a tour Pro only moving at around 4 or 5mph but with efficient sequence of everything else it will produce driver swing speed of 110mph plus through impact)
Every tour pro, elite player has this lead foot, lead knee, lead hip move (hip moving a couple inches laterally towards target before starting to turn and clear which makes space for the arms, hands and club to swing through square to target line)
It's just that because of different tempos some players lower body starting before the upper body stops moving back are easier to see, some it appears not to be happening but it will be nonetheless still there to a varying degree dependent on the individual style/tempo of the player.
Hope this helps. Good look with grooving the change in your swing, stick with it, it's a key to better striking 
Cheers.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2014)

As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, before my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing.
		
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I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2014)

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left heel is what SHOULD happen!
		
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Depends what the left knee does when you lift the left heel


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Hey Gareth, newbie to the forum here, but not new to golf.

In answer to your 1st question in short is, in every proper and good golf swing the transition to the forward swing has to start from the ground up. It's also really the answer to your second question too in a way.

Every elite golfer whether they are Cat 1 am, or tour pro will do this. A RH golfer will start with weight into the ball of the left foot into the ground (it's that ground force that provides in the end the source of swing speed as it becomes an anchor for the hips to clear round then then torso followed by the shoulders arms hands shaft club head. (groundforce often overlooked but is key to produce speed through impact, friction anchor point in the inside of the right foot going back, then left foot starting the transition: if you tried a golf swing without that groundforce friction the club head wouldn't be moving very quickly at all, a swing on ice for instance taking the assumption theoretically you could stay upright and make one would produce very little stored energy/speed through impact! as there's nothing to brace against.)
Think of it as a relay race with every bit hitting a point where they pass on energy to next which culminates with optimum speed through impact. Lead foot, lead knee, lead hip, hips, torso, sternum, shoulders, arms. hands, shaft, finally club head has all the sequenced produced energy through impact.
It is indeed this start of the transition in the left foot, moves left knee back, hip slightly towards target (couple inches max) before the hip turns and clears making space for arms hands and club to come through square to provide proper impact conditions. 
This start at the left foot and lower body is why there sometimes appears to be a pause at the top, as you suggest it's an illusion really as movement has started down below and the pause is just the change of direction from going up to coming down, it's more evident in a smoother swinger rather than a fast tempo say like Nick Price but it's there still, it's just more difficult to see clearly in real time.
Often a Pro will ask a player making a swing change to feel the new move through an exaggeration of it, as often it takes this to effect a good change at all, "feel to real" often what we may feel we do is not what we are doing as anyone being shown their swing on vid will know.
If say a player has either been starting the swing back (transition) with the shoulders upper body hands and arms which throws the club out on the wrong path with all the then intendant repercussions that has, or if they've been starting the lower body and upper body at the same time therefore not having the 'relay race' and the passing on of energy bit by bit to, in the end product, optimum club-head speed. (shoulders of a tour Pro only moving at around 4 or 5mph but with efficient sequence of everything else it will produce driver swing speed of 110mph plus through impact)
Every tour pro, elite player has this lead foot, lead knee, lead hip move (hip moving a couple inches laterally towards target before starting to turn and clear which makes space for the arms, hands and club to swing through square to target line)
It's just that because of different tempos some players lower body starting before the upper body stops moving back are easier to see, some it appears not to be happening but it will be nonetheless still there to a varying degree dependent on the individual style/tempo of the player.
Hope this helps. Good look with grooving the change in your swing, stick with it, it's a key to better striking 
Cheers.
		
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That's some explanation! Thanks for that coach :thup: 

I can't remember who, may have been Hogan, who said "You can't clear your hips quickly enough" or words to that effect. 

With me for the most part always moving things in unison (Until lessons) that is going to take time to groove the relay race you describe. 



bobmac said:



			I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss
		
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Bob, I'll always listen to what you have to say on a given subject. You're insights have always useful. 

Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2014)

Bob, I was being somewhat facetious (you should be able to recognise that by now!)



bobmac said:



			Depends what the left knee does when you lift the left heel
		
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Left Knee straight is BAD though - pushes everything away from 'over the ball'. Not so much a sway as a Lean!

There's an interesting list of names in this vid - from 1:20 or so who are/have been Lead Heel Lifters (Phil and Bubba being Right rather than left!)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoZHlBhdb2E Never got through the whole 17 mins of that one though. Tough to listen to Wayne De F at the best of times, let alone on a slow Laptop! I hope your lessons aren't as Dry as I imagine his would be!



bobmac said:



			I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss
		
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That was the warning the guy with the TGM aid gave me too. He said you almost need to feel as if you are pushing the club straight down (even though you aren't) to avoid Casting/OTT issues.

KISS definitely works, specially in Golf!


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## Khamelion (Jan 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely nothing wrong with the left heel coming off the ground! As long as it gets back down pretty quick on the Downswing!

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left  heel is what SHOULD happen!

Keeping the left heel on the ground is a good way for a swayer to get out of that habit (and rotate properly) though!
		
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Yes many players from yester year did lift the left heel during the back swing and yes there was nothing wrong with their game. However the modern players are much more flexible, have better training and gym routines, have better flexibility and have specific coaching for core strength and flexibility. 

It's this flexibility that allows the likes of Woods, Stenson, Scott etc.... to make a full turn but keep their left heel grounded.

Call it progress in the physical aspect of the golfer, better nutrition, better understanding of strength work in the gym and better flexibility.

I agree there are many players who will lift their left heel, but lifting and thus allowing the left knee to move to far right can create all kinds of problems. This is why I said the left heel should never come of the ground. The exceptions being those that suffer back pain or look to really over rotate  past 90 degrees. One prime example being John Daly.


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## Khamelion (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?
		
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Yes

I know as it's what I suffered from for a long time. my hips would clear to quickly and my shoulders would follow, it all stemmed from me starting my downswing with a shoulder movement, in the belief that I had to turn the power on from the get go and I was using all the big muscles to instigate my swing, the result being I would throw out my arms at the top of the swing and have a massive out to in swing path.

If I could upload a video from 3yrs ago when I first stared playing you would see what I mean.


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## Junior (Jan 28, 2014)

Following this thread with interest as my pro told me something very similar regarding me not clearing my hips. To my eye, its the most visible thing I see pros doing more effectively than amatures.

My problem is when I conciously do it, I spin my hips out , club gets stuck on the inside and I either hit a huge block or snap hook.

I'll keep following with interest and any drills anyone can recommend is much appreciated.


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			That's some explanation! Thanks for that coach :thup: 

I can't remember who, may have been Hogan, who said "You can't clear your hips quickly enough" or words to that effect. 


Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?
		
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Hey Gareth,

This is really part of a misunderstanding in the how the downswing works sequence wise that is. 
The Hogan quote, he was referring and very importantly, once the hips _had got to the point_ when they should be clearing they then "can't clear fast enough".

In a good sound sequence the hips move after the weight into ball left foot etc as I detailed before: but before the shoulders. But as I said with the weight first into the left foot then ankle gets in line back over foot, knee back in line over ankle this moves the hips _first 2 i__nches laterally towards target _ thats the key right there, only after this small lateral move does the left hip reach the point where it should turn and clear to the left.

You'll only go out over the top if your first move with the hip is to turn and clear alone, we call this spinning the hips. If you turn spin the left hip left as it's very first move then your shoulders & upper body & arms & club have no option other than to go out and over across the line, so you get the out to in swing.

Start the swing from the ground up with the left foot and you'll get that critically important but small two inch-ish movement of the hip laterally towards target first, then and only then does the left hip turn and clear left. Then it can clear fast, that's what Hogan was speaking too, but too often it gets taken a bit out of context and folks just turn left first adn fast and spin out then you are OTT all day long.
Cheers.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Yes many players from yester year did lift the left heel during the back swing and yes there was nothing wrong with their game. However the modern players are much more flexible, have better training and gym routines, have better flexibility and have specific coaching for core strength and flexibility. 

It's this flexibility that allows the likes of Woods, Stenson, Scott etc.... to make a full turn but keep their left heel grounded.

Call it progress in the physical aspect of the golfer, better nutrition, better understanding of strength work in the gym and better flexibility.

I agree there are many players who will lift their left heel, but lifting and thus allowing the left knee to move to far right can create all kinds of problems. This is why I said the left heel should never come of the ground. The exceptions being those that suffer back pain or look to really over rotate  past 90 degrees. One prime example being John Daly.
		
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I agree that it's a flexibility issue. 

But to state 'should never' was wrong! As Bob posted, what the left knee does afterwards governs whether the overall movement is bad or not! And getting it back down quickly is important too.

And I think we've been through the 'it's pointless trying to emulate the top Pros' often enough!

Sam Snead, one of those named, was pretty flexible btw. Phil Mickleson and Bubba Watson, slight and huge over-swingers resp., are also Lead Foot lifters!


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Junior said:



			Following this thread with interest as my pro told me something very similar regarding me not clearing my hips. To my eye, its the most visible thing I see pros doing more effectively than amatures.

My problem is when I conciously do it, I spin my hips out , club gets stuck on the inside and I either hit a huge block or snap hook.

I'll keep following with interest and any drills anyone can recommend is much appreciated.
		
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Your transition first move needs to start from the ground up weight in left foot first (lead foot) as you have to move your hips laterally towards target first before you turn and clear the left hip left. So _you don't_ 'spin out' ie. turn your hips as your first move, if you do you will come over the top if you trun first without the lateral bump towards target.

Best drill if you can practice on grass, stick an alignment stick vertically into the ground one inch outside you left heel so it inline with the middle of you leg. 
Take your address position and first don't hit balls just make a 50% slow-mo swing back to the top, and focus on your first transition move being the feeling that the arms club and shoulders stay at the top, your back stays facing target and you press with gently with the ball of your left foot into the ground while your left hip moves laterally to the stick to gently touch it, then turn and clear and complete the 50% slow-mo swing to finish. 
You'll probably need to just practice the slow move to the top & the feeling of your top half staying still, then the gently weight into ball of your left foot and feel your hip touch the stick gently, do this a few times to get used to that bit before you put the then turn and clear and slow-mo swing through to the top, do it with say an 8i. 
Make sure you can do it well before you try doing it hitting balls (check the stick is in the ground far enough so your arms can clear it in the through swing!!!) and when you start hitiing balls at first keep the slow-mo gentle 50% swing so it's only going half distance as thats not the important thing here first it's to feel the new weight into foot hip bump that's the important thing here.

Once you get the move 10 out of 10 balls with that bump left first before the turn, move up to 75% swing make sure you can get this sequences bump and turn right properly before you step up to your normal comfortable 85% swing.
If you have to do this at a driving range and have a stand bag use that, the top of the bag an inch or so from your left hip at address (you'll probably have to take all the clubs out so you don't clip them on the through swing!!!)
Hope this helps.
Cheers.


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

Totally agree re: moving the weight and not just turning the hips. 

There's some excellent information come out if this thread. Thanks again guys :thup:

I have no issue moving my weight, my issue came (..... As Coach says) from a sequencing issue.  Something I have always had is poor hip rotation (Both ways)

The issue I mention in the OP is not opening my hips going back. This has nearly been remedied now, but the main issue was a poor hip turn through that gave both contact and flight issues. 

When I clear my hips, as instructed, contract is better and the flight of the ball is much more predictable. I no longer hit a straight pull, or a pull draw. 

My last range session (... Yesterday) the only ball that missed left was an over draw that only just missed the left edge of the green.

As I say it's very much a work in progress, but so far so good :thup:


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## Junior (Jan 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Your transition first move needs to start from the ground up weight in left foot first (lead foot) as you have to move your hips laterally towards target first before you turn and clear the left hip left. So _you don't_ 'spin out' ie. turn your hips as your first move, if you do you will come over the top if you trun first without the lateral bump towards target.

Best drill if you can practice on grass, stick an alignment stick vertically into the ground one inch outside you left heel so it inline with the middle of you leg. 
Take your address position and first don't hit balls just make a 50% slow-mo swing back to the top, and focus on your first transition move being the feeling that the arms club and shoulders stay at the top, your back stays facing target and you press with gently with the ball of your left foot into the ground while your left hip moves laterally to the stick to gently touch it, then turn and clear and complete the 50% slow-mo swing to finish. 
You'll probably need to just practice the slow move to the top & the feeling of your top half staying still, then the gently weight into ball of your left foot and feel your hip touch the stick gently, do this a few times to get used to that bit before you put the then turn and clear and slow-mo swing through to the top, do it with say an 8i. 
Make sure you can do it well before you try doing it hitting balls (check the stick is in the ground far enough so your arms can clear it in the through swing!!!) and when you start hitiing balls at first keep the slow-mo gentle 50% swing so it's only going half distance as thats not the important thing here first it's to feel the new weight into foot hip bump that's the important thing here.

Once you get the move 10 out of 10 balls with that bump left first before the turn, move up to 75% swing make sure you can get this sequences bump and turn right properly before you step up to your normal comfortable 85% swing.
If you have to do this at a driving range and have a stand bag use that, the top of the bag an inch or so from your left hip at address (you'll probably have to take all the clubs out so you don't clip them on the through swing!!!)
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
		
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Thanks ! :thup::thup:


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I have no issue moving my weight, my issue came (..... As Coach says) from a sequencing issue.  Something I have always had is poor hip rotation (Both ways)

The issue I mention in the OP is not opening my hips going back. This has nearly been remedied now, but the main issue was a poor hip turn through that gave both contact and flight issues. 

As I say it's very much a work in progress, but so far so good :thup:
		
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Gareth glad to hear it's going well.

Just one point on the hip turn in the back swing, the feeling this isn't working is often because on first move away is often a little sway to the right of the hips and not a turn.

Often it's also to do with the angle our pelvis is at address, the tailbone (tush) isn't out and back and up enough to we don't have enough angle in the pelvis. 
You can check with your belt buckle, if at address the buckle is looking more straight forwards well in front high over the ball target line you won't be able to make a decent hip movement in the backswing or clearing left turn during the through swing. You want the buckle therefore your pelvis looking more at the ball target line there should be much more of an angle to your pelvis you can check with the of the belt backside to front, if viewed from the DTL viewpoint it should be at a angle well downwards towards ball target line and not still fairly level.

If it's a little bit of a sway right that's also the problem with the hips in the back swing, when your hands get to just past your right thigh you should be starting to 'turn' into your right hip socket, your body pivot turning your weight into the inside of your right foot you never let it get past that inside right foot position, keeping flex in your right knee, you'll feel a good deal of tension in the inside of your right thigh, and if you had a wallet in the right back hand pocket of your golf slacks the wallet will be moving slowly towards target direction and not moving in the direction right and away from it.

Cheers.


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Gareth glad to hear it's going well.

Just one point on the hip turn in the back swing, the feeling this isn't working is often because on first move away is often a little sway to the right of the hips and not a turn.

Often it's also to do with the angle our pelvis is at address, the tailbone (tush) isn't out and back and up enough to we don't have enough angle in the pelvis. 
You can check with your belt buckle, if at address the buckle is looking more straight forwards well in front high over the ball target line you won't be able to make a decent hip movement in the backswing or clearing left turn during the through swing. You want the buckle therefore your pelvis looking more at the ball target line there should be much more of an angle to your pelvis you can check with the of the belt backside to front, if viewed from the DTL viewpoint it should be at a angle well downwards towards ball target line and not still fairly level.

If it's a little bit of a sway right that's also the problem with the hips in the back swing, when your hands get to just past your right thigh you should be starting to 'turn' into your right hip socket, your body pivot turning your weight into the inside of your right foot you never let it get past that inside right foot position, keeping flex in your right knee, you'll feel a good deal of tension in the inside of your right thigh, and if you had a wallet in the right back hand pocket of your golf slacks the wallet will be moving slowly towards target direction and not moving in the direction right and away from it.

Cheers.
		
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Very similar to what my pro said. 

He used the analogy of having the feeling someone is tugging my right pocket back behind me. 

The pocket never gets behind, but it does give a good/better turn :thup:


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## G1BB0 (Jan 28, 2014)

when I have played well (yes it does happen now and again) I have noticed a feeling of a pause at the top of the backswing, its almost as if I am swinging in a rhythm and it just clicks

can't bloody replicate it at will though!


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Very similar to what my pro said. 

He used the analogy of having the feeling someone is tugging my right pocket back behind me. 

The pocket never gets behind, but it does give a good/better turn :thup:
		
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Yes that's exactly the feel you should have, analogy of the wallet in the right "back' pocket moving slowly to target or someone tugging your right front hip pocket behind you.

One way to feel this is at home inside, no club involved, cross your arms across your chest (as you do to feel a correct shoulder turn, club across your chest if you really want) and take up your address stance and posture, paying particular attention to the correct angle of your pelvis, but you do this with your both left and right backside cheeks both roughly half inch away from a wall.

Start your shoulder turn resist in your legs until the pivot starts to turn your hips (keep the weight inside right foot right knee flexed) 
Do this and you'll feel your right cheek brush the wall as your back right (wallet) pocket turns a little towards the target side of your stance as you continue your shoulder turn, and that's exactly the feeling you need in your backswing, your right hip should never move away from target to the right in any way.

Body & shoulder pivot fulcrum is at the bone thats attached to your pelvis (not as some people think at the base of your spine) try making a shoulder turn just from the small of your back where the base of the spine is and don't allow your pelvis to turn and you'll see what I mean as your shoulder turn will be way way short of ninety for sure, it's only be allowing the pelvis to rotate that you can get to ninety degs and a complete shoudler turn to the top


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## One Planer (Jan 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Yes that's exactly the feel you should have, analogy of the wallet in the right "back' pocket moving slowly to target or someone tugging your right front hip pocket behind you.

One way to feel this is at home inside, no club involved, cross your arms across your chest (as you do to feel a correct shoulder turn, club across your chest if you really want) and take up your address stance and posture, paying particular attention to the correct angle of your pelvis, but you do this with your both left and right backside cheeks both roughly half inch away from a wall.

Start your shoulder turn resist in your legs until the pivot starts to turn your hips (keep the weight inside right foot right knee flexed) 
Do this and you'll feel your right cheek brush the wall as your back right (wallet) pocket turns a little towards the target side of your stance as you continue your shoulder turn, and that's exactly the feeling you need in your backswing, your right hip should never move away from target to the right in any way.

Body & shoulder pivot fulcrum is at the bone thats attached to your pelvis (not as some people think at the base of your spine) try making a shoulder turn just from the small of your back where the base of the spine is and don't allow your pelvis to turn and you'll see what I mean as your shoulder turn will be way way short of ninety for sure, it's only be allowing the pelvis to rotate that you can get to ninety degs and a complete shoudler turn to the top 

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It's nice to know I'm moving along the right track. Confidence in what I'm doing has just been boosted 

Thanks Coach :thup:


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## G1BB0 (Jan 28, 2014)

I can replicate all these moves and understand every feeling, why can't it be done on the course with a club in hand?


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Junior said:



			Thanks ! :thup::thup:
		
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No problem, get this down right and it will help you for sure. 

Doing for the first time if off grass use a short tee pressed right in with just the base of the ball cup of the tee on the ground, so you can't push it in any further. 
As though it sounds as if the drill should be easy it requires you really working on timing and getting the sequence of moves right, off a tee as described just gives you that little bit of extra confidence and you'll soon be surprised at the quality of the strikes you get, when you start to hit balls once; once you got it nailed as a drill without a ball first.

If you're doing off range matt, use the smallest tee so ball is just quarter of inch off the matt.


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

Gareth said:



			It's nice to know I'm moving along the right track. Confidence in what I'm doing has just been boosted 

Thanks Coach :thup:
		
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No problem, keep at it, and you'll get it down.

Just remember, get that pelvic tilt right, it's crucial to a proper pivot of the upper body as well as the hips themselves, without it you can't get an efficient turn back or be able to clear the left hip properly after the first small lateral bump.

One reason so many people can't make a proper turn back is that they are bending from the waist, and you can't turn properly from the base at the small of your back with the pelvis too flat facing forwards and not angled down at the ball target line.
Got to make spine angle by bending from the hip sockets in the pelvis.
Have a go at that inside against the wall drill, it'll help for sure, even though it looks a bit odd, ha!
Swing it well.
Cheers


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## G1BB0 (Jan 28, 2014)

any pics/vids to illustrate this, I find this very interesting


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## the_coach (Jan 28, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			any pics/vids to illustrate this, I find this very interesting
		
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Hi, not sure if you mean what I've been talking about, most tour pro's swings you watch if you have a trawl over utube will be making these movements.
If it is about what i've been explaining and you have any questions, just ask and I'll do my best to help you.
Cheers.


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## JustOne (Jan 29, 2014)

Gareth said:



			As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, *before* my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"_In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice_."
		
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In my opinion what you've described above is GOLF SWING SUICIDE

Not only do you risk hurting your lower back (which is enough reason in itself) you are in fact (as even Tom Watson said in your quote) building something that requires a huge amount of timing.... and a lot of practice.

You're almost describing the 'x-factor' as it was originally written (separation between the hip angle and the shoulder angle)...... which has actually been debunked even by the person who originally came up with it!!!

As I said.... golf suicide..... and my lower back that I damaged when trying to PROVE to someone how bad it is is testament to what I'm saying. 

If you were 14 and that was 'your move' and you did it for 15yrs whilst remaining super-supple, fit, and got the timing practically perfect most of the time then MAYBE it would have some value.


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## One Planer (Jan 29, 2014)

JustOne said:



			In my opinion what you've described above is GOLF SWING SUICIDE

Not only do you risk hurting your lower back (which is enough reason in itself) you are in fact (as even Tom Watson said in your quote) building something that requires a huge amount of timing.... and a lot of practice.

You're almost describing the 'x-factor' as it was originally written (separation between the hip angle and the shoulder angle)...... which has actually been debunked even by the person who originally came up with it!!!

As I said.... golf suicide..... and my lower back that I damaged when trying to PROVE to someone how bad it is is testament to what I'm saying. 

If you were 14 and that was 'your move' and you did it for 15yrs whilst remaining super-supple, fit, and got the timing practically perfect most of the time then MAYBE it would have some value.
		
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This is something I've also considered James :thup:

As I, and I think Coach, said above, it's more an exaggerated feeling rather than an actual action (Feel vs Real).


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## the_coach (Jan 29, 2014)

Gareth said:



			This is something I've also considered James :thup:

As I, and I think Coach, said above, it's more an exaggerated feeling rather than an actual action (Feel vs Real).
		
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Yep, Gareth that's the nub of it 'feel vs real'.


My guess would be your pro has identified you:- A. either start your downswing with lower body plus upper body at the same time, whist you can play golf from this, you lose the chance to develop optimum club head speed and there'll be more timing and club path consistency issues if everything starts back at once (back to my 'relay' analogy) 
Or:- B. you tend to start your downswing with your arms, hands & upper body so not giving chance for your lower body to work properly through the swing, this upper body first motion, gives you an out to in swing path, you can play golf from here also, but again but you'll be playing it with at best a fade consistently but you'll lack a little distance, and at worse this way a fade, a pull (or even possibly a pull hook if you up the ante and try and save it with extra hands through impact) or a big old slice and you'll never be able to be quite sure which one is going to turn up when!


As I've said before all good golfers play golf with the transition starting from the ground up, weight into ball of lead foot first, that's an indisputable truth across the golf coaching world.


{as an aside it was Jim McQueen (who teaches at Doral mainly -course with the terrifying 'blue monster' 18th) who came up the X Factor, as far as I'm aware he still, to date, talks about it, and has 2013 vids on his website and utube about it, hasn't completely disowned it to the best of my knowledge - _though that 'extreme' is not something I would recommend to the ordinary handicap golfer. _
You have to have extreme suppleness, flexibility and strength in your abs and back muscles plus no hip socket or back issues. That kind of XF swing you find in plus, scratch or near scratch top juniors at around 13, 14, 15 and they'll have to tone down that XF as the years progress. 
For instance it will be interesting to see how McIlroy develops his swing (which is still in the pure essence a young juniors action at it's core even now) as his flexibility changes down the years McIlroy's swing at 35 will I think be quite a bit different to todays version. Couples back problems well documented but he's an extremely flexible golfer still into his early 50's but it's still taken it's toll on him.}


So my take would be your Pro wants you to start the swing down from the ground up, which he should want, and as an exaggerated 'feel' he's asked you to feel lower body start as shoulders are still moving back. 


Either, he can see you're the right body shape, slim and fit, and have flexibility and core strength to adapt to this, although still as I've spoken about above there are inherent difficulties in trying to play golf with a 'big' XF for sure, _and as I've said not something I'd recommend as a long term model for the 'club' golfer._ 


Or, importantly he's wanting you to 'feel' this, whilst actually the 'real' is, that your shoulders arms and club are allowed to reach the top of your backswing and _then_ your transition starts with initially the ball of the left foot pressing into the ground and the lower body starting the through swing with the your upper body, back, arms and club 'appearing' to stay still because the change in direction led by the lower body giving the 'illusion' of a pause as the 'up' movement in the club changes to 'down' in the way I've described in previous posts on tis thread. 
This is a model I'd recommend as it gives you the 'relay' sequences in your downswing for your best swing speed through impact as it allows you to retain the 'angles' set in the backswing, gives you the best angle of attack (as your weight will be 80-85% on a posted left leg through impact) and also the best swing path of 'in' to square to 'in' and all of these will deliver the best impact conditions for a good strike through the ball. Whilst also giving you no 'damage' to your back or pelvis.
Cheers.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2014)

I believe Jim Mc*Lean* grabbed 1 concept described in The Golf Machine, called it the X-Factor and claimed to have discovered/invented it.

He's quite good at that sort of thing - as are quite a few others! Having taught using Old Ball Flight Laws (face aimed at the target) for years, I saw a claim that he's told the world about New ones (face aim governs initial ball direction)!

Or am I just being cynical! 

Some of his stuff is really quite good though - the 10 Death Moves (or something like that) is a good series!


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## One Planer (Jan 29, 2014)

David Leadbetter seems to rate a fast hip action also:

"_You've probably heard a golfer use the term "spinout" before. It sounds like a bad thing, but in many cases it's not. It's often a term associated with good players who have quick lower-body action. If they clear their hips too aggressively on the downswing, there are times when the arms and club lag too far behind and they struggle to square the clubface at impact. They feel like they spun out. Although it might produce a block or hook, this type of spinout can result in powerful drives that find the fairway. It's a good thing for average golfers to copy. 

Many amateurs incorrectly spin out with the upper body when they start down from the top. The weight shifts away from the target and they swivel around the back leg (above, left). This type of spinout produces a weak hit, usually a slice or a pull, and is the reverse of what you want to feel. 

When you start the downswing, you want to move your weight into your front foot and then try to clear your hips hard by rotating them toward the target (above, right). As long as your shoulders and chest are facing the ball at impact, you'll hit some powerful shots with this type of fast hip action_."

I think what's going to take me a little getting used to is not using my arms.

I know it sounds daft, but I know what I mean


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## JustOne (Jan 29, 2014)

People hook their drives because they don't turn enough (they stall or don't complete the turn) and their arms take over

People block shots because their lower body turns to fast leaving the top half behind (hands trailing - stuck normally)

*It's somewhere in the middle that you need to be*.... not super aggressive (trying to turn your hips so damn fast that you can't keep up) and not so sluggishly slow that your upper body infact starts before your hips and you slice the ball!!


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## One Planer (Jan 29, 2014)

JustOne said:



			People hook their drives because they don't turn enough (they stall or don't complete the turn) and their arms take over

People block shots because their lower body turns to fast leaving the top half behind (hands trailing - stuck normally)

*It's somewhere in the middle that you need to be*.... not super aggressive (trying to turn your hips so damn fast that you can't keep up) and not so sluggishly slow that your upper body infact starts before your hips and you slice the ball!!
		
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Can't argue with any of that James :thup:

With me, up until recently, moving everything in unison, it's going to be a case of beaking the habbit of involving the arms in transition.

I hit the range at lunch today, despite the heavy wind, found it quite produtive (... Apart from the ball starting bang on line and drifting right on the wind ). Once I break the habbit and allow my downswing to be _mainly sequenced_ by my lower half, I'll be onto a winner ...... It's the breaking of the habbit that will take the time and effort.


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## Khamelion (Jan 29, 2014)

Great thread this, as all that is being discussed is what I'm currently working on with my teacher, and it's great to get others take on the same subject, also knowing I'm not the only one trying to groove a new swing.


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## the_coach (Jan 29, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I believe Jim Mc*Lean* grabbed 1 concept described in The Golf Machine, called it the X-Factor and claimed to have discovered/invented it.

He's quite good at that sort of thing - as are quite a few others! Having taught using Old Ball Flight Laws (face aimed at the target) for years, I saw a claim that he's told the world about New ones (face aim governs initial ball direction)!

Or am I just being cynical! 

Some of his stuff is really quite good though - the 10 Death Moves (or something like that) is a good series!
		
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Ha  yes Mclean, that's what comes of typing/thinking trying to do it fast at 4 in the morning when you've got insomnia. No idea where McQueen came from at least got Doral & blue monster and everything else in order 

Never really taken to him _McLean_ that is but to be fair to him, Homer Kelley never mentions the 'X factor' at all in the TGM bible and his photo's in there have a kind of hockey stick shape shape showing the path the hands take in the downswing. Homer does mention the 'hulu' flexibility! of the hips though, perhaps he'd just been to the 'islands'!!

Had the good fortune to be a guest in a talk about golf to some PGA hopefuls aiming for the USPGA given by Sean Foley, he obviously said loads of things. But one interesting note, he was talking about his love of the golf machine and said he wished there could be a do over and Homer could write the book again still putting over his points but in a distilled and much easier way for folks to read it. The fact that Foley said all this about Mr Kelley and TGM totally surprised me. Even though I know, like me, when Foley was around 13, 14 years old he was going to golf lessons with "The Hat" (Gregg McHatton) at Valencia Golf Club (California) himself originally a TGM man who I think was taught at some time by the original and first TGM instructor appointed by Kelley, Mr Ben Doyle.

Before very high speed camera's and Doppler radar trackers it's fair to say that most golf teachers thought that club path had more of an influence of the direction of the ball and face angle less so. Something we've all known now for a while not to be true at all and initial ball direction is governed by face angle or where the club is looking at impact, or to be more precise where the club face is looking at the moment the ball leaves the face something again proved by Doppler and super slow-mo.
Think quite a few people using trackman, super slow-mo realized more or less at the same time about face angle being more important than club path. But as you say McLean (Not McQueen  Ha !!  is known in the biz as claiming a lot of 'firsts'.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Before very high speed camera's and Doppler radar trackers it's fair to say that most golf teachers thought that club path had more of an influence of the direction of the ball and face angle less so.
		
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The US ones perhaps/probably. But UK PGA course refers to the 1967/68 Cochran & Stobbs book 'Search for the Perfect Swing'. The Path vs Face 'rules' defined in that book are virtually identical with what Trackman et al demonstrated! Book is seriously outdated in some (equipment related) aspects, but excellent in other regards.

Apologies for the thread-jack guys. Back to Sequencing!

Gareth. Here's an article from an independent guy - who used to be a TGM man but states he has moved somewhat. As he's a (medical) Doctor, he's pretty trustworthy on the bio-mechanics! http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

Pete Cowen's Spiral Staircase exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44Ae4nCQXs, in conjunction with the drill of thecoach's might help too.


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## the_coach (Jan 29, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			The US ones perhaps/probably. But UK PGA course refers to the 1967/68 Cochran & Stobbs book 'Search for the Perfect Swing'. The Path vs Face 'rules' defined in that book are virtually identical with what Trackman et al demonstrated! Book is seriously outdated in some (equipment related) aspects, but excellent in other regards.

Apologies for the thread-jack guys. Back to Sequencing!

Gareth. Here's an article from an independent guy - who used to be a TGM man but states he has moved somewhat. As he's a (medical) Doctor, he's pretty trustworthy on the bio-mechanics! http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

Pete Cowen's Spiral Staircase exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44Ae4nCQXs, in conjunction with the drill of thecoach's might help too.
		
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Yes sorry Gareth. 
I have that book by Alastair Cochran, John Stobbs, not read it for a long time though. Have an original hardback 'The Golfing Machine' with little inscription written in for me by Mr Ben Doyle when I went to see him about 10 years ago, just to talk golf, no lesson, at Quail Lodge, Carmel Valley, not far from me.

PC's spiral staircase served Henrik really well last year!!!! wonder if Westwood's having second thoughts!


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

Some excellent information on this thread for anyone interested.

Semi-related question regarding uncoilingin transition, with regard soley to the hips.

Is the movmement at transition (To get the weight and hips moving forward) based on a slide or rotation?


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## bobmac (Jan 30, 2014)

What do you do when you throw a ball ?


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## garyinderry (Jan 30, 2014)

Monty's big tip is, ''always finish the back swing''.


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			What do you do when you throw a ball ?
		
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I know what you mean, it's just putting that into words 

If you include the step the weight, kind of, drops onto the left foot the rotates around before the arms come through.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			What do you do when you throw a ball ?
		
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While throwing a ball has a lot if similarities with a Golf swing, I'd suggest that it differs significantly in that so much of the actual, and significant, throw is performed above the level of the hips - it's really a very armsy action. Skipping a stone across water *might* be a better analogy in this regard - though probably not in others.



the_coach said:



			PC's spiral staircase served Henrik really well last year!!!! wonder if Westwood's having second thoughts!
		
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Was/Is that (the spiral staircase) the reason though? :mmm: Possibly almost as (in)valid to say Stenson hits his best shots when not wearing shoes and socks (or Trousers even)!  And he did win a/the Big one - in Dubai! And (now) World #3? I'd take that! Btw I did use the word 'might'! Are you not a fan of the drill? or PC even (he wouldn't be my #1 choice)?


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2014)

Doh!!!

Complete Brain Fart re Stenson! Too much thinking about skipping stones and throwing balls!


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## bobmac (Jan 30, 2014)

While throwing a ball has a lot if similarities with a Golf swing, I'd suggest that it differs significantly in that so much of the actual, and significant, throw is performed above the level of the hips - it's really a very armsy action. Skipping a stone across water might be a better analogy in this regard - though probably not in others.
		
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I am aware they are different thank you.
The point I was trying to make was you can throw a ball without thinking about how you throw it.
Same as driving a car or riding a bike.
Gareth, KISS.
The less swing thoughts the better.


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			The less swing thoughts the better.
		
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While I agree totally Bob. It's something I have to work on.

My hip action is so lazy mainly because I've always used my arms too much in the swing. When I make the effort to rotate my hips hard through impact I get a better contact and flight.

My pro had me doing a drill where he jammed an alignment stick into the ground in front of my left leg (... And fractionally forward). The idea to get my right leg to the stick, or past it, when my swing finishes. When I don'tmake the 'effort' with my hips my right leg normally finishes short of the mark.

I suppose when making a big change, some swing thoughts are inevitable until is becomes second nature.


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## tsped83 (Jan 30, 2014)

I've read this thread through and it makes my head hurt. A lot.

How do you play golf with all of this going on between your ears?


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			I've read this thread through and it makes my head hurt. A lot.

How do you play golf with all of this going on between your ears?
		
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I don't have anything going on between my ears! Even at the best of times :smirk:

That's what practice is for.

Practice what you are taught on the range or at home, then go out and play, thought free :thup:


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## lex! (Jan 30, 2014)

If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

lex! said:



			If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.
		
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Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique. 

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body. 

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2014)

lex! said:



			If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.
		
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That's quite possibly true - for you - and it makes sense to know your limitations.

However, if someone is capable - and Gareth's Pro checked out his flexibility - then the benefits can be significant.

Having the ability to change from 'practice mode' to 'on the course mode' is important too!


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## lex! (Jan 30, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique. 

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body. 

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.
		
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I start the downswing with feeling of a tiny drop of the right shoulder and a tiny feeling of the ground in my left toe. Then I think the body should support and respond to a free swing of the arms hand and club, and not drive it.


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

I comes to something when you have to tidy your own thread :rofl:

One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:







Freddie Couples:







Adam Scott:







Louis 'Whatsisface'







All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards


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## lex! (Jan 30, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I comes to something when you have to tidy your own thread :rofl:

One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:







Freddie Couples:







Adam Scott:







Louis 'Whatsisface'







All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards
		
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They've also got....er....TALENT !


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2014)

lex! said:



			They've also got....er....TALENT !
		
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Are you saying that this can't be taught?



Because my teaching pro would disagree.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2014)

Gareth said:



			One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:

Freddie Couples:

Adam Scott:

Louis 'Whatsisface'

All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards
		
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Sound reasoning Gareth - if you can do it. For those of us that aren't flexible enough, there are other ways to achieve that, though that's normally there's a cost.

So it's quite reasonable to question the likelihood of success. The fact that your Pro checked your flexibility first indicates that he believes you can, rather than simply trying to get you to emulate the guns even when you are physically incapable of doing so! That would be a bad idea, but I've heard about a few Pros trying. They don't last long as teachers!

Good Luck!


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## G1BB0 (Jan 30, 2014)

if Aphibarnrat can do it......

 I am sure the majority of us are more flexible than him


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			if Aphibarnrat can do it......

 I am sure the majority of us are more flexible than him 

Click to expand...

Greater size does not automatically mean less flexibility!


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## the_coach (Jan 30, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique. 

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body. 

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.
		
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This is absolutely the case.


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## the_coach (Jan 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			What do you do when you throw a ball ?
		
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RHanded: To throw it with any force, _you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip._ 
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed. 
Sound familiar? 
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.


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## Jimbooo (Jan 30, 2014)

the_coach said:



			RHanded: To throw it with any force, _you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip._ 
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed. 
Sound familiar? 
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.
		
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Trouble is, I throw left-handed, but play golf right-handed.  I throw right-handed like a right numpty!


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## bobmac (Jan 30, 2014)

the_coach said:



			RHanded: To throw it with any force, _you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip._ 
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed. 
Sound familiar? 
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.
		
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See post 54


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## the_coach (Jan 30, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Some excellent information on this thread for anyone interested.

Semi-related question regarding uncoilingin transition, with regard soley to the hips.

Is the movmement at transition (To get the weight and hips moving forward) based on a slide or rotation?
		
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To be totally correct it's neither a slide or a rotation. 
At the point directly before the club, hands & arms and right shoulder start their movement, which is at that point is downwards towards the ground. 
The first 'lower body' movement is a pressing into the ball of your left foot, this causes a small chain reaction all the way up the left leg to the left hip, simply because of the anatomy of our bodies.
This consistent pressure, (it stays in the left foot as the leg posts and then the left hip turns and clears and you complete the swing through impact) creates this chain reaction in fractions of a second. 
The pressure brings the left ankle back in line over the foot, the ankle brings the knee back in line and the knee moves the left hips first movement of approximately two inches, so the joints from the foot, ankle, knee and hip are drawn back in-line so the leg can post.
Best way to feel this is, (you can do it inside at home if ceiling is high enough) is to make a slow motion swing, and I mean slow motion, but continuos slow motion from start to held finish in balance, your aim is to make it one pace and last as near to 30 seconds as you can, just count ! & 2 & ... as you go through it. (it'll take you a lot of goes to get this right it's a lot harder to do properly than it may seem)
At the top of the backswing your goal is to press downwards into the ground with your ball of your left foot as the first thing you do in this transition back to impact. 
You will notice this immediately moves your ankle back, knee, and your left hip the 2" or so left (if your paying particular attention to what you feel as you do this you'll notice that your hip whilst moving this small amount doesn't actually move straight left back to target but in a little diagonal direction angled to the ball target line)

You'll feel this move will also start to bring the club, hands & arms and right shoulder down towards the ground. 
It then takes you down to the delivery position your right elbow close into right hip hands and handle opposite your right thigh, the shaft is almost parallel to the ground, the angle in your right wrist is intact, the shaft is also inline and either directly above your toe line or an inch or so in front of your toe line, the shaft is parallel to your ball target line.
The hands then start to release the club into impact and hands above ball lead a forward leaning shaft into impact. And you continue on through to finish.
It's a difficult exercise but it's a truly good one, one I've used many time to good results with the Cat 1 players I coach and have coached. worth doing but not easy to do. If you do it right you will feel what a good transition is in a good golf swing.

Then next time you're on the range repeat this drill, first the super slowmo without a ball. Then do it at a 30% swing speed through a ball (best with an 8i at first off a tee pushed right into the ground or that equivalent height tee if off a mat) once you can do 30% consistently (we're obviously here just focussed on getting the feeling you had in the super slowmo swing through transition, not distance here, but you should be getting decent contact on the back of the ball, down and through to a held full finish) then move up to 50% swing speed, then 75% then to your comfortable 85% full swing, don't cheat, if you don't get the 50% go back to 30% get it right before you move on to the next swing speed.

So that's why it's not a left hip slide back at transition start. 
If you slide your hip back towards target it won't put the arrangement of all the joints in your left leg back in line properly in the right order to be able to 'post' and 'clear' correctly. Most people who slide their hips move the left hip to fast and consequently too far left which then pulls your knee and ankle too far left and you'll get bowing out towards target of your left leg which will play havoc with a proper consistent strike, and will leave you with nothing to either post against properly or turn and clear against properly so if you do slide your hips first you'll get a lot of inconsistent contact at impact.

It's not a clear and turn straight at transition start either as this just throws your right hip straight out towards target line which then throws club hand arms right shoulder and upper body out to target line too, hips spinout shoulders and upper body spin out and in no time you've got a very bad out to in swing which all causes a myriad of bad contacts and terrible shots.


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## the_coach (Jan 30, 2014)

bobmac said:



			See post 54
		
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Did do, it makes no real difference to the understanding of what actually happens, bio mechanically in throwing a ball, which is completely similar at it's core to making a good golf swing.

Something is only simple and repeatable if you can do it correctly and well.

If someone can keep it simple and repeatedly play golf well, then good luck to them. The majority of amateur club golfers can't, they keep it 'simple' and consistently play badly. 
The percentage of single figure golfers worldwide is a single digit percentage out of the whole number worldwide who play the game. 
Get to the lower end of the scale of Cat 1 from 2 to +4, and it becomes  a fraction of that single digit percentage. 
These numbers haven't got any better and have been about the same for well over 50 years. The majority of amateur golfers don't take lessons, those that have taken a lesson or some lessons usually don't keep that consistent through there golfing life. The majority of Tour players on every level of tour take coaching on a regular basis through their career, their are a few exceptions but they are in a very very small minority who haven't, hard to think of many who have never taken a lesson of any kind at some stage from junior to the Tour player, Bubba being the only one that immediately springs to mind.

As soon as you ask some one to throw a ball a lot of people can, many can't, not at least what you would call properly.

Some kids when they start baseball find being a pitcher fairly easy, the majority don't, you can teach these kids who can't do it well, to improve, once you show them the technique involved.
Ask someone to throw a ball at a small target at speed and it becomes much more difficult to do it well repeatedly.


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## Khamelion (Jan 30, 2014)

What 'the_coach' has written in post #72 confirms what my teacher has been trying to get me to do, but by reading the same, but in a different way from a different person has helped me understand that whole process a load better, it's filled in the gaps for me.

Thank you for that, very much appreciated.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2014)

So TC!

Would it be better (when practicing) to be 'more aware' of getting the weight shift to the ball of the lead foot and to post (a fairly natural pair of actions) before the arms start down, with the correct hip movement being pretty automatic, rather than trying to manufacture hip movements and hoping the left leg has 'done the necessary'?


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## the_coach (Jan 31, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			What 'the_coach' has written in post #72 confirms what my teacher has been trying to get me to do, but by reading the same, but in a different way from a different person has helped me understand that whole process a load better, it's filled in the gaps for me.

Thank you for that, very much appreciated.
		
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Cheers, hope it helps you.

As a postscript to all that:

It all presupposes of course that the golfer has wound up in the backswing in the right way.

So from correct address posture and a one piece takeaway, you have start back over a solid stance in your legs, and your hips have not swayed to the right away from target. 

If an alignment rod was in the ground next to your right heel and vertical to be 1 inch away from your right hip at belt height, when your hands pass your right thigh going back, shoulders already turning (right shoulder back and away from target line) your torso, abs, will start to turn your right hip inside that rod without touching it (or at worst just brushing it but not knocking it right and away from vertical)

All this against a flexed right leg, that stays softly flexed to the top, weight importantly staying all the way through this turn to the top on the inside of your right foot, spine angle set at address stays all the way back to the top (also all the way through to impact as well) You'll feel the pressure build into the inside of your right thigh to the top if you're doing this correctly.

Your vertical head height shouldn't change, keep level by keeping the posture spine angle and the flex in your hips you had at address, you bend over to create this spine angle from your hips and not from your waist. 
Your head can move right but only a couple inches max as you continue your shoulder turn/body pivot, your left chest moving over your right thigh.

When your shoulder turn/body pivot stops, so should your arms. no extra lifting of the arms in an attempt to search for extra power that won't give it but hurt the strike as you'll throw your body and arms sync to far out. 

To a similar point the backswing as just said stops when the shoulder turn/body pivot does, don't then bend your arms at the elbows in a search for extra backswing length and supposed extra power as this will do exactly the same in destroying the sync between your arms & club and the turn of your body through impact.

It's this point now at the top of this correctly wound up backswing that the transition point spoken about in the previous post (72) starts, doing it will give you a "feeling" that your upper body arms hands and club "pause" in actuality they don't it's just the change in motion from turning back to starting down.


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## the_coach (Jan 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So TC!

Would it be better (when practicing) to be 'more aware' of getting the weight shift to the ball of the lead foot and to post (a fairly natural pair of actions) before the arms start down, with the correct hip movement being pretty automatic, rather than trying to manufacture hip movements and hoping the left leg has 'done the necessary'?
		
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When practicing the slow motion drills I outlined in order to feel what a transition should feel like, if, this is a particular part of the swing that either someone just has never really got, or is having trouble with. 
Then yes, it would be better for them to feel the weight pressing downwards directly in to the ground as a lot of folks when putting weight into their lead foot will be focussed on putting that weight wrongly towards the target and will jump that weight wrongly onto the outside of the lead foot which will slide their hips too far towards target and from that point their leg won't post correctly or automatically neither will their hips clear correctly or automatically as they will be in a blocked position and their arms and hands and upper body will have to make compensatory movement to be able to put the club onto the ball, but it won't be with correct impact conditions.

Weight into the left at start of transition, the correct posting of the left leg, and clearing of the right hip, all done in the correct and timed sequence, are only a "fairly natural pair of actions" if you can already do them. 
Anything is "fairly natural" if you can already do it, the majority of golfers can't and that transition point plus the first move away from the ball are the two things that most golfers find most difficult. To someone who can do either or both well this will be to them "natural" and easy. 
As with the answer to the first part of your question, the answer to hip action part:- correct hip action is only automatic if you can do it, the majority of golfers simply don't have that correct action at all. 
Some won't have it, and will have no chance of doing it all, because of the position of their pelvis is in the address posture, and the fact that they don't make their spine angle from the hip sockets but bend from the waist. 
Some may have the correct posture but will sway right off the ball, and then be in the wrong place relative to their ball position, some having swayed right will just sway back left too far, so the correct hip action is far from automatic. 
Something is only simple, correct, automatic if you are able to do it in the first place, most aren't, if they were the majority of golfers would be in possession of extremely efficient and good golf swings which we know not to be the case.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2014)

I think I get the message! 

There aren't really any short-cuts! 

Thanks!


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## John (Jan 31, 2014)

Some really good points here. It's something that I've been struggling with recently too.


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2014)

Something is only simple and repeatable if you can do it correctly
		
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It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.




			The majority of amateur golfers don't take lessons
		
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			The majority of amateur club golfers can't, they keep it 'simple' and consistently play badly.
		
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I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.


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## One Planer (Jan 31, 2014)

I think these two pictures illustrate what I'm looking to achieve. Again using Luke Donald as an example:

Top of backswing:







Weight shift:







Looking at the above images, that little 'bump' to start the weight moving to the left is what I've mis-understood. I don't have to *force* my hips to do anything in transition. If I move my weight correctly they take care of themselves?

Like Bob says KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)!


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## the_coach (Jan 31, 2014)

bobmac said:



			It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.

I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.
		
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If you teaching a pupil one to one in person, and when I'm coaching one to one, you wouldn't go through such or any detailed description at all, all at once. 

Unless they asked you to but even then after you'd only 'work' still with a bit at a time in the best order that particular pupil with the problems they present need. 

As you'd be there working with them, both to show movement, and to help the golfer be in the position you want them to feel, by putting them in it, and that, with drills will give them simply, the concept of what they and you are trying to achieve to improve their game.

That's a completely different proposition to a thread on a forum, where someone is asking questions because they want either to understand something a little better and in more depth, or perhaps just because they are a little unsure still and are just want some further clarification and validity of what they have either been asked to do, or are just trying to do stuff on their own, unfortunately some folks circumstances and geographical location mean they are unable to go see a Pro themselves (always the best option).

Giving short tips with no real explanation in the written word on a forum will more than likely lead to more problems for a golfer.

The people on here that don't want to know aren't being forced to read anything, change or do anything to their golf swing if they don't wish too.

But if they don't want to know on such threads as these, why are they here at all. Most people I would guess, hope for some information and help if possible, and because it's something that interests them and want to discuss with others. 

People can throw a ball, ride a bike, drive a car up to a point, driving on the freeway, highway a lot, there are many who can't do the last two very well at all.

The golf swing is a much more difficult set of movements that have to be performed at speed in a correctly timed sequence. Those who find that simple and can do it easily and well, from the off, are very fortunate.


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2014)

the_coach said:



			If you teaching a pupil one to one in person, and when I'm coaching one to one, you wouldn't go through such or any detailed description at all, all at once. 

Unless they asked you to but even then after you'd only 'work' still with a bit at a time in the best order that particular pupil with the problems they present need. 

As you'd be there working with them, both to show movement, and to help the golfer be in the position you want them to feel, by putting them in it, and that, with drills will give them simply, the concept of what they and you are trying to achieve to improve their game.

That's a completely different proposition to a thread on a forum, where someone is asking questions because they want either to understand something a little better and in more depth, or perhaps just because they are a little unsure still and are just want some further clarification and validity of what they have either been asked to do, or are just trying to do stuff on their own, unfortunately some folks circumstances and geographical location mean they are unable to go see a Pro themselves (always the best option).

Giving short tips with no real explanation in the written word on a forum will more than likely lead to more problems for a golfer.

The people on here that don't want to know aren't being forced to read anything, change or do anything to their golf swing if they don't wish too.

But if they don't want to know on such threads as these, why are they here at all. Most people I would guess, hope for some information and help if possible, and because it's something that interests them and want to discuss with others. 

People can throw a ball, ride a bike, drive a car up to a point, driving on the freeway, highway a lot, there are many who can't do the last two very well at all.

The golf swing is a much more difficult set of movements that have to be performed at speed in a correctly timed sequence. Those who find that simple and can do it easily and well, from the off, are very fortunate.
		
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I can't agree with all of that but then we are all different.
We'll have to agree to disagree


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## lex! (Jan 31, 2014)

bobmac said:



			It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.





I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.
		
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Excellent post and great advice. Many thanks.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2014)

Seems to me that there are 2 equally valid approaches being discussed - full explanation and 'trust me, I'm a Pro'. To me, both have (potential) benefits and disadvantages.  

I believe it depends on the pupil's desires and needs/capability as to which one might work better - and there may be situations where a switch to the other approach might be required/best.

The key to being a good teacher is not so much actually 'knowing your subject', but finding out the way a particular pupil learns best. Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2014)

Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1.  Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins




			Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.
		
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Correct


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## lex! (Jan 31, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1. Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins



Correct
		
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I want to know all about the bio mechanics of the swing. When I ask my pro to tell me them, I sort of get the 'shut up and do as I tell you' look. However, in truth, what he tells me to do is one hundred per cent right, one hundred per cent of the time.


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## the_coach (Jan 31, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that there are 2 equally valid approaches being discussed - full explanation and 'trust me, I'm a Pro'. To me, both have (potential) benefits and disadvantages.  

I believe it depends on the pupil's desires and needs/capability as to which one might work better - and there may be situations where a switch to the other approach might be required/best.

The key to being a good teacher is not so much actually 'knowing your subject', but finding out the way a particular pupil learns best. Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.
		
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Absolutely agree, with only one adjunct, you have to know your subject, in order to supply the uncomplicated advice needed to help the pupil/golfer in front of you, at a lesson in a manner right for that particular individual. As you have the person, the personality, their aims, their swing, impact conditions, ball flight and shot patterns, right in front of you and so the approach is, and should be, totally different to a discussion in the written word on a forum.


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## the_coach (Jan 31, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1.  Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins



Correct
		
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Wouldn't disagree with any of that, if you have the person/pupil in front of you.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Absolutely agree, with only one adjunct, you have to know your subject, in order to supply the uncomplicated advice needed to help the pupil/golfer in front of you, at a lesson in a manner right for that particular individual. As you have the person, the personality, their aims, their swing, impact conditions, ball flight and shot patterns, right in front of you and so the approach is, and should be, totally different to a discussion in the written word on a forum.
		
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Again, agree entirely - as I probably do with Bob (I'm a bit dubious about the 'instant assessment', but that works in a written word environment). Seems like there'll be group hugs and high fives soon!  A certain famous, Jersey based, coach actually had a disclaimer on the first (or at least an early) page of an early book about the 'written word' need - and that's Slicefixer's reason/excuse for having not published too.

As for subject knowledge, I use the analogy of my brother, a 1st Class Honours (going on PhD) in Quantum Mathematics and my Ex, who's highest qualification was Driver's License (her words, it was actually Teaching Certificate). Brother had pupils, who weren't interested in learning anyway, climbing out of windows. But Ex, 5'2" but capable of reducing 6' 15 y-old bullies to blubbering wretches, could capture a Class's imagination and get them to learn without realising it! I know which one I'd want to explain Gravitons or The Kerr Metric - or even how a Laser or Speed Camera - works though!


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## JustOne (Feb 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I use the analogy of my brother, a 1st Class Honours (going on PhD) in Quantum Mathematics and my Ex, who's highest qualification was Driver's License (her words, it was actually Teaching Certificate). Brother had pupils, who weren't interested in learning anyway, climbing out of windows. But Ex, 5'2" but capable of reducing 6' 15 y-old bullies to blubbering wretches, could capture a Class's imagination and get them to learn without realising it!
		
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Too bad you ended up like your Brother  :rofl:


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## Khamelion (Feb 1, 2014)

I can see where both Bobmac and the_coach are coming from, when trying to explain what it is you need to do in a golf swing but I written word form, it is something that can't really be achieved in a few words and the lengthy explanations this thread has are excellent.

Now some people read the thread looking for a quick fix and short reply that says do x, y or z and you problem will be cured, but then they see long explanations of why something does this and leads to the other and come back with the generic reply "I can only think of one thing in my swing, this thread is giving me a headache" but for others the explanations are ideal in filling in the blanks.

The 'others', are likely to be those who are having lessons already and are just looking to confirm what they have been told.

I firmly believe that for myself I would not have got to where I currently am with my swing progress if it were not for lessons, just reading threads like this would not do it for me, I know I would be reading the detailed long posts, would get lost and would probably end up being worse off then before I started. So while there is a great deal of knowledge and information being shared ultimately, learning from others posts is no where near the same as learning from doing and having the instructor in front of you.

The advice given may help those not in lessons, it may not, but for those of us who are having lessons, then these posts are brilliant to have a second and third source confirm what is being taught.

As earlier in this post and in other threads I've read, I'd just like to say thank you to Bobmac, JustOne and the_coach, I have regular lessons with my teacher, who is brilliant and is sorting me out no end and then I come to the forum and after reading some posts in here from the three aforementioned , it's like having 4 people teaching me.

Cheers


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## JustOne (Feb 1, 2014)

^
^
^
Fair post :thup: It's a forum, we're SUPPOSED to write about things.

It would be a crap forum if we just replied "Go have a lesson" on every single thread.

Some people like to talk/read about things (books wouldn't exist otherwise), anyone who is not interested in a discussion on a particular thread SHOULD JUST LEAVE THE THREAD :thup:


It's been quite nice here for the past few months.... no real arguments, no whingers, or people that want to 'agree to disagree'.


... and welcome to 'the_coach' - enjoy reading your posts, that is some SERIOUS typing! :thup:


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## the_coach (Feb 5, 2014)

JustOne said:



			^
^
^
Fair post :thup: It's a forum, we're SUPPOSED to write about things.

It would be a crap forum if we just replied "Go have a lesson" on every single thread.

Some people like to talk/read about things (books wouldn't exist otherwise), anyone who is not interested in a discussion on a particular thread SHOULD JUST LEAVE THE THREAD :thup:


It's been quite nice here for the past few months.... no real arguments, no whingers, or people that want to 'agree to disagree'.


... and welcome to 'the_coach' - enjoy reading your posts, that is some SERIOUS typing! :thup:
		
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Cheers, much appreciated.


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## chrisd (Feb 5, 2014)

I had lesson 3 today, of 8 half hour lessons. I absolutely want to know what any changes are for and what benefit I will derive from making them. I've never been to a pro who hasn't made changes and I've been to a few bad pros who are clearly using their pupils simply to pay the mortgage. A mate of mine says that he had paid out over 4k for lessons with a pro over the years, if that were me I'd have to have a single figure handicap guaranteed!

I can see the merit in Bob, the Coach and JO ways and so long as there's no harm done for anyone on the forum who tries the various swing changes then I'd thank those fellows for their input


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## One Planer (Feb 6, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I had lesson 3 today, of 8 half hour lessons. I absolutely want to know what any changes are for and what benefit I will derive from making them. I've never been to a pro who hasn't made changes and I've been to a few bad pros who are clearly using their pupils simply to pay the mortgage. A mate of mine says that he had paid out over 4k for lessons with a pro over the years, if that were me I'd have to have a single figure handicap guaranteed!

I can see the merit in Bob, the Coach and JO ways and so long as there's no harm done for anyone on the forum who tries the various swing changes then I'd thank those fellows for their input
		
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:clap:

I've always said that the forum benefits from varied opinion. Inclusive not exclusive so to speak.

Of course opinions will differ, but that doesn't mean opinions are not valid.


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## lex! (Feb 6, 2014)

@Gareth
Hi, with regard to earlier discussions on this topic, there's a good vid on YouTube with Henrik Stenson discussing his revival. Here he talks about using his muscles, rather than his skeleton, in the swing. Obviously he explains it much better than me, and he also demonstrates, and talks about what can happen if hips and frame get involved in the wrong way.


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## the_coach (Feb 6, 2014)

lex! said:



			@Gareth
Hi, with regard to earlier discussions on this topic, there's a good vid on YouTube with Henrik Stenson discussing his revival. Here he talks about using his muscles, rather than his skeleton, in the swing. Obviously he explains it much better than me, and he also demonstrates, and talks about what can happen if hips and frame get involved in the wrong way.
		
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Yes, that's what Henrik works on with Pete Cowan, and part of the 'spiral staircase' thinking, as the way the body winds up to the top and then starts down from the lead leg foot. (Think someone mentioned Cowan and the 'staircase' earlier.) Certainly worked for Henrik very, very well in 2013


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## dsanders9944 (Feb 7, 2014)

It's best not to over complicate things, I had the same problem as was also told the same thing by my pro but found that I had to think so much about it that I tensed up and was out of sync a lot trying to achieve it.  This video helped me a lot

[video=youtube_share;W3fTE2BMxks]http://youtu.be/W3fTE2BMxks[/video]


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## the_coach (Feb 7, 2014)

dsanders9944 said:



			It's best not to over complicate things, I had the same problem as was also told the same thing by my pro but found that I had to think so much about it that I tensed up and was out of sync a lot trying to achieve it.  This video helped me a lot.
		
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Great you found vid this helpful. 
The lateral 2",3" hip move towards target is essential before you turn and clear as BD says. 

The danger inherent in just concentrating on moving the hip laterally like this, is, it's quite easy to move (slide) the hip laterally too much, so then the hip moves towards target and becomes _forward_ of the outside of your left foot, not what you want at all as it's then impossible to post your left leg properly and turn(clear) your hip left correctly, as the weight gets on the outside of left foot too soon in the downswing.

Better at transition to feel your left foot (lead foot,lead leg) press vertically down which will move the hip laterally the correct amount (without going laterally left too far to soon in a big hip slide) your leg can then straighten (not bow) and you can turn and clear you hip so your hands, arms & club has the space to swing through impact.


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## lex! (Feb 8, 2014)

Purely personal, but the analogy of throwing a ball just doesn't work for me, and I used to play div one cricket. The swing is just so dramatically different.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 8, 2014)

After my previous lesson a a really dodger fortnight of grip changes I bounced for a second option as result were going from bad to worse quicker than the British weather.  The second pro stumbled on something that not one pro had brought up in the last 5/6 years. There's was little leg bracing on the right leg which lead to over rotation/swaying, which in turn lead to major inconsistencies. It would get that bad that down the line shots would result in being able to see light between the legs which is obviously not good.

We spend Wednesday night just working on a firm stable leg set up and hip bump at the top and result were night a day difference,  it took around 100 balls before it really started to click but the ones that did like Gareth said were great, better compression, better quality strike and so,e of the lowest flights I've see which has always been a big issue for me. It seems from there my only bad miss is letter the hands get away from me. Good balls were in to square to in. Bad were in to square to out which was nasty but I'm working on this.

It's actually amazing that it seems many in this thread including myself build from an unstable base and don't realise that power and consistency is built from the ground up effectively.

I have to admit today was a car crash at the range but I felt drained and stiff so it was better to leave the balls there.

Got to admit I've ready this thread twice now before posting and I think it could possible go down as one of the most informative threads that have been here, but what's good it the variation in the level of information is given.

Coach, very indepth and descriptive for those that have the need for maximum info in order to understand fully.
Bob, 10% info just hit it this way and kiss. Oooo'er....

Then the I between.

A great thread and one that may help me in tomorrow's range session.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 8, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I think these two pictures illustrate what I'm looking to achieve. Again using Luke Donald as an example:

Top of backswing:







Weight shift:







Looking at the above images, that little 'bump' to start the weight moving to the left is what I've mis-understood. I don't have to *force* my hips to do anything in transition. If I move my weight correctly they take care of themselves?

Like Bob says KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)!
		
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Seems we are both working on identical things


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## One Planer (Feb 8, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			Seems we are both working on identical things
		
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Looks that way pal.

From a previous lesson I had, when videod, my base is very stable. I had zero, literally zero head or hip sway (backwards) and to the top.

I had a range session Thursday, before getting a dose if the flu, and hit the ball beautifully. 

Our range has a green at 150 yards. I've set myself the target of keeping the balls I hit inside the confines of the green, meaning when playing a course I'd have only a simple chip left.

When I get to the top of the backswing, I have the sensation of moving my left hip towards the target, while my back is still facing the target. It still feels weird, as it's still new, however the results are more than  acceptable in both contact and direction. 

I also agree that some of the content in this thread has been excellent.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 8, 2014)

My issue what the problem come from a sway away from the targets that left my head behind the ball, then on the down swing you have to fire the hopes majorly iPad get quite handsy leaving yourself behind the ball. I worked on a drill recently that had me getting back to the ball and when it worked it's ok, but the fact is the sway/twist in the back swing caused a lot more issues.

When hitting off a firm base I notice the old foot slip goes and I feel bolted to the floor, because I'm not twisting I'm less flat and finish in a more neutral position at the top still with a slightly closed face but it's not really an issue,

I notice from the videos posted in the start of this thread of Gary woodland he's swing it quite compact and doesnt swing back to horizontal at the top, this was something I found also.

Being honest my head wasn't into today's range session and it may have been slightly half arsed so to speak, but reading this thread reminded me of stuff that I'd let slip from the mid week lesson, need to get back to the range tomorrow, while it still fresh in my head, may even have to retread it in the morning.

Like you our range has greens at 100 yards (about 40ft wide) and same at 150 so you can effectively play virtual par 3's. I believe that this is too much of a miss area so I tend to focus on one side of the green giving me an approx 20ft target,  as my striking gets more consistent the target will be reduced in size again,


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

lex! said:



			Purely personal, but the analogy of throwing a ball just doesn't work for me, and I used to play div one cricket. The swing is just so dramatically different.
		
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Analogies can be dangerous things.

Throwing action, of some sort, does seem appropriate - to me. But I can certainly imagine how it doesn't help. Golf and cricket ball throws are significantly lighter and less awkward to throw than a club is to swing. A softball throw might be better. My 'skimming stones' one also involves more hip work, but a dangerous amount of knee bend! The baseball/softball swing, tilted 45*?


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## One Planer (Feb 8, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			My issue what the problem come from a sway away from the targets that left my head behind the ball, then on the down swing you have to fire the hopes majorly iPad get quite handsy leaving yourself behind the ball. I worked on a drill recently that had me getting back to the ball and when it worked it's ok, but the fact is the sway/twist in the back swing caused a lot more issues.

When hitting off a firm base I notice the old foot slip goes and I feel bolted to the floor, because I'm not twisting I'm less flat and finish in a more neutral position at the top still with a slightly closed face but it's not really an issue,

I notice from the videos posted in the start of this thread of Gary woodland he's swing it quite compact and doesnt swing back to horizontal at the top, this was something I found also.

Being honest my head wasn't into today's range session and it may have been slightly half arsed so to speak, but reading this thread reminded me of stuff that I'd let slip from the mid week lesson, need to get back to the range tomorrow, while it still fresh in my head, may even have to retread it in the morning.

Like you our range has greens at 100 yards (about 40ft wide) and same at 150 so you can effectively play virtual par 3's. I believe that this is too much of a miss area so I tend to focus on one side of the green giving me an approx 20ft target,  as my striking gets more consistent the target will be reduced in size again,
		
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Exactly.

Where you say Gary a Woodland has a compact swing, I'm the exact opposite. My pro say I have a lot of width in my swing, which is good for distance ............... apparently


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## G1BB0 (Feb 8, 2014)

isnt it funny how such a relatively simple process, especially in practice is soo bloody hard to replicate when aiming at a particular spot with that little white spherical object in the way and a card in hand! Loving this thread and all the little (or large) snippets of advice are invaluable


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## the_coach (Feb 8, 2014)

Golf, good golf is a game solely based on stability, a solid base - feet, knees, legs which has to 'ground' your golf swing. The importance of 'ground force' can't be stressed enough really, down through both feet. Against the inside right foot inside right thigh forcing your weight into the ground going back allowing you to 'wind up', and down into the ground against the left leg posted as the left hip clears going through towards swing finish. Without a solid base you can only get limited speed to the club-head, and little accuracy to the strike either if the golfer has a severe case of 'Elvis knees & legs'.

You can have a compact swing (well short of parallel going back, many top golfers do with their irons in particular, and quite a few with the driver, 3metal etc.) but there is still width there going back. Compact shouldn't and doesn't mean narrow going back. You need natural width going back as in a proper and good transition through to impact the arms will from transition both shallow out and narrow a little in the downswing. The one thing you have to guard against working on width going back, is, if you really reach out with your arms and club to try to gain width in an exaggerated way you'll disconnect your arms & club from your body pivot/turn, and then you'll struggle in trying to get back through the ball with any club-head speed or solid strike and pressure through the back of the ball.


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## Jimbooo (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Analogies can be dangerous things.

Throwing action, of some sort, does seem appropriate - to me. But I can certainly imagine how it doesn't help. Golf and cricket ball throws are significantly lighter and less awkward to throw than a club is to swing. A softball throw might be better. My 'skimming stones' one also involves more hip work, but a dangerous amount of knee bend! The baseball/softball swing, tilted 45*?
		
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A throwing action doesn't help me at all because I throw with my left hand, but I swing right-handed!  Those skimming stones analogies etc. just don't work for me as I see my swing as a 'backhand' I suppose.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 8, 2014)

When I referred to compact, I should have been specific in terms of shorter back swing.  I've been advised let the swing stop when the muscles feel stretched, do not over rotate in order to get to parallel at the top, the back swing will finish where it finishes within reason,


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## One Planer (Feb 8, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			When I referred to compact, I should have been specific in terms of shorter back swing.  I've been advised let the swing stop when the muscles feel stretched, do not over rotate in order to get to parallel at the top, the back swing will finish where it finishes within reason,
		
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Ah I see :thup:

I only swing to about 10.30 myself.


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## the_coach (Feb 8, 2014)

With a view to just how important the ground is in a golf swing, here's a snippet of footage by the golf teacher that I went to when I was about 16, Gregg McHatton. (he also taught a 12 or 13 year old Sean Foley not sure exactly how old he was when I used to see him turn up for his lessons) He's talking about the ground and hips albeit in not a usual way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STpivHaEGhM

In this other vid, Gregg discusses again, ground, plus feet, leg and body core involvement in the golf swing. 
For those looking at understanding better the 'transition move' into the downswing pay particular attention to the slowmo swing of Gregg. Notice how his weight in his left foot at the start of transition is really working hard downwards into the ground and then how that gets his left hip in position to turn and clear, also you'll see how the joints in the left leg (ankle, knee, hip socket) are brought perfectly into line so if you look at the outside line of Gregg's left leg you'll see it's virtually in a perfectly vertical straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMr8_1nS4A


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## Jimbooo (Feb 9, 2014)

When the weight moves to the lead foot at start of the downswing, should it be on the ball of the foot, or the heel?


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## Jimbooo (Feb 9, 2014)

the_coach said:



			In this other vid, Gregg discusses again, ground, plus feet, leg and body core involvement in the golf swing. 
For those looking at understanding better the 'transition move' into the downswing pay particular attention to the slowmo swing of Gregg. Notice how his weight in his left foot at the start of transition is really working hard downwards into the ground and then how that gets his left hip in position to turn and clear, also you'll see how the joints in the left leg (ankle, knee, hip socket) are brought perfectly into line so if you look at the outside line of Gregg's left leg you'll see it's virtually in a perfectly vertical straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMr8_1nS4A

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That's a truly beautiful swing.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 9, 2014)

Does anyone else not find it strange that you could/have embarked on years of lessons, and no other pro' shave ever got you thinking from the ground up.

I was thinking this morning and since 08, I've had around 30/35 lessons and yet not one coach until last week has ever addressed my stance or base in this detail,  surely with the base being the house of power I tap worries me that pros never actually fully address y.our problems, more a course of quick fixes


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## Oddsocks (Feb 9, 2014)

Hypothetically speaking, what's to stop you using a range mat, and sticking a tour stick in the left hander tee holder , rather like this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PqR7HFz5wis

I get that this is an extreme move as he's bump looks to be around 3-4 inches but the principle is there,


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## chrisd (Feb 9, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			Does anyone else not find it strange that you could/have embarked on years of lessons, and no other pro' shave ever got you thinking from the ground up.

I was thinking this morning and since 08, I've had around 30/35 lessons and yet not one coach until last week has ever addressed my stance or base in this detail,  surely with the base being the house of power I tap worries me that pros never actually fully address y.our problems, more a course of quick fixes
		
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I agree Baz.

 So many Pro's don't cover the problems in their pupils swings, rather, they try and get all pupils swings the same. This doesn't take into account factors like age, suppleness or injuries and, whilst I agree a " one swing fits all" approach might cure a multitude of swing faults in a player I think we all need some leeway in what we attempt to swing like.

One of the biggest improvements in my game came when I started to swing slower from the top, it transformed my strike, but, no pro (and I've been to many) ever suggested doing this!

In the last few weeks I've been helping a mate who's off 14, we've slowed his transition down, loosened the right hand grip (he pull hooked with a strong right hand grip) and moved his ball back a fraction and the improvements in his strike have been awesome. Sadly for him, he has spent upwards of 4k on lessons in the past few years with one pro who apparently said at one stage that "someone has to pay his mortgage"!


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## Oddsocks (Feb 9, 2014)

To be told someone has to pay my mortgage would tip me over the edge


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			Hypothetically speaking, what's to stop you using a range mat, and sticking a tour stick in the left hander tee holder , rather like this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PqR7HFz5wis

I get that this is an extreme move as he's bump looks to be around 3-4 inches but the principle is there,
		
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The only real issue I have with drills like that is it implies that things work independently and are not connected. 

How I have always understood the transition is the bump of the hips forward allows the arms to drop (without conscious thought) on plane. Cause and effect if you like. Hips move/bump forward (cause), arms drop on plane (effect)

If you were to move your hips as much as he does in that video your arms would be massively late into impact. 

I understand it is an exaggeration of the movement, but for someone who is 'learning' the game without lessons it could easily be misunderstood and taken literally. 

As it happens, my pro I hasme working on a similar drill but with the aim of turning my rig leg past the alignment stick in the follow through, ensuring I keep turning to finish.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 9, 2014)

I get the reason of the bump as my pro is banging on about it the same way yours is, bump the hips to drop the arms...

It was more the fact that when you at the range, on your own trying to grove it exaggerating the movement to try and get to the tour stick which get the feeling "allowing" the arms to drop and also giving pretty quick feedback,


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			I get the reason of the bump as my pro is banging on about it the same way yours is, bump the hips to drop the arms...

It was more the fact that when you at the range, on your own trying to grove it exaggerating the movement to try and get to the tour stick which get the feeling "allowing" the arms to drop and also giving pretty quick feedback,
		
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For sure :thup:

Bob hit the nail on the head a few pages back. We all learn in different ways as were all individual. 

I learn pretty much by feel. When practicing I'm looking for a feeling or motioning the swing the repeats and delivers what I'm being taught. 

For me, as I said earlier, the feeling of keeping my back facing the target while I bump my hips is reaping great reward. I don't actually keep my back facing the target, I know I rotate, or I'd be in all kinds of trouble, it's just a feeling to let me know I'm doing it right.


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## Chisteve (Feb 9, 2014)

Great thread, I video myself at the range and have been working on dislocation of my hips from my shoulders changed my swing completely, reading this is a great help to me as I don't take instruction very well at all but do understand if I see a video and read these very good points and explanations


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

Chisteve said:



			Great thread, I video myself at the range and have been working on *dislocation* of my hips from my shoulders changed my swing completely, reading this is a great help to me as I don't take instruction very well at all but do understand if I see a video and read these very good points and explanations
		
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Sounds painful :lol:

I'm glad you find the thread useful. There certainly is some great information in here.


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## Chisteve (Feb 9, 2014)

Oops of course I meant disassociation


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## the_coach (Feb 9, 2014)

Just a thought for folks on how you learn and therefore how you teach, my take on it. Everyone coach/teacher with a passion for golf and in particular a passion to help someone achieve the best golf swing for them that will give them the best results as consistently as possible. 
Obviously as a given the instructor has to have studied the fundamentals and thoroughly understood them and knows what exactly is needed to produce a good and solid swing through the ball that produces the best impact conditions possible to send the ball to target.
To be able to do this you also have to be able to see through interaction with the student in front of you just what kind of 'learner' they are. 
Some folks respond best to explanation and the observation of the swing and the various parts of, some need to be physically put in certain positions in order to feel them before using that feel to produce a swing themselves, through constant alternation of first being put in position in a session then repeat the motion themselves.
Some people are very exact, they just need to be shown exactly what to do where the club and body should be in 3d space with an explanation of a feeling, and they can work to that, pretty quickly.
Young golfers in particular are very receptive to being shown a move within a swing motion and are able to copy this and thus feel the motion for themselves, they can find it fairly easy to learn through mimicry.
Others, who you are trying to help iron out deep ingrained faults and compensations often can't take straight away an exact route, as this only leads to them repeating what they normally do but they are thinking they are making the changes needed when in reality they are not at all, but generally will only believe this with their own eyes when shown video of their original movement. 
A video of a lesson of them being shown and spoken to about the changes they need to make, then the 'after' video that they think they have changed things only to see they are still doing exactly the same thing is often the only way having seen for themselves they will trust instruction that immediately feels to them too much of an exaggeration. These folks only really make the changes when they then are asked to make these pretty big and radical exaggerated swing moves in order for them to get near to making any change at all.
The best coaches deal with the person and swing motion presented to them (taking into consideration age, flexibility, fitness, medical conditions, long term injuries etc.) 
Find out how the folks learn best, and tailors the lessons, and drills to the best way for that individual to find improvement, good instructors don't teach a one size fits all- only way to swing method at all.
A good instructor, knows well the right feelings and movements to make to produce a sound repeatable golf swing, because that's what they do when they swing a golf club, they know how it feels. It's how best to convey that, that's the nub of the matter. 
The job is providing a platform, a particular way for that 'pupil' in front of you to experience for themselves the motion and results of a sound swing motion that produces repeatable sound impact conditions. 
Folks only truly learn so that it sticks if they can have that "learned experience' for themselves through guidance, and 'good' practice.


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## the_coach (Feb 9, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			When the weight moves to the lead foot at start of the downswing, should it be on the ball of the foot, or the heel?
		
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As really with all things in golf to a large extent it depends on what you are already doing. 
So this is totally dependent on having the correct fundamentals at address, aim, alignment, posture (and keeping good posture through to impact totally crucial to proper ball contact through impact) and also a proper 'coil' in the backswing to top, posture maintained (no rising up out of on the way back) weight at top of backswing is along the whole inside of the right foot, flex still in right knee and pressure on the inside of your right thigh, pivot and shoulder 'turn' not tilt, hips 'turned' by the pivot back and haven't just swayed away to the right.

So assuming all of the above in good shape. 
If your a golfer who makes a good backswing to the top but has to allow on the final bit of the backswing the left(lead) heel to come up off the ground, first off that heel has to get back to the ground as the first thing in transition. But it should get back smoothly and not jerked back, or jumped on, or slammed down, as you want to feel your pressure into the ground in the center of your left (lead) foot, to be exact the part of the ball of your foot nearest to the arch and not nearest your toes (you can only feel this exactly if you make some very slow motion turns back and through with yours arms folded across your chest, just to feel the experience, you'll never feel this weight pressure in center of that foot at the first just by swinging through a golf swing through a ball)

If your a golfer flexible enough to make a backswing and the whole of your left (lead) foot remains on the ground, you should try to feel the ball of the foot pressing down into the ground first, which will align your leg so it can post and your left hip clear correctly. 
Usually if you slam weight pressure into your left heel first if you've kept that foot on the ground going back if you're not careful you won't get the small lateral movement of your hips you need first, weight into the heel first then will tend to spin your hips hard left first result lots of pulls or slices depending where the face of the club is pointing through that out to in swing path, which is not at all what you want.
However, if, say you are someone who tends to have coming into and through impact 'early extension' (hips moving forward to target line and thus extended your body height leading you to come up out of impact) and you tend to feel a lot of weight on your toes through impact and after, then a feeling of keeping your 'backside' back to maintain a better pelvic angle with a little weight on your left heel wouldn't go amiss. 

It may be your a golfer who can as first move in transition concentrate on just feeling the 'bump' left of the hips that two or three inches needed before you turn left hip and clear it to give the space for your hands, arms and club to come through on the right path square through impact. (for as well as helping generate club-head speed that's exactly why the left hip has to clear left, without it the arms and clubs path to/through impact will be blocked and yours arms and club will be forced to move outwards and away from you and to the right of the target line.)

As a generalization I've found most golfers focussing on moving the hips laterally left as their first move back tend to move them left too much thus bow the left leg, then you can't post it properly and find a clearing left hip movement very difficult to achieve. It does as a thought work for some folks.
Another way some folks find they can start transition and make the necessary lateral hip 'bump' left and weight pressure in left foot, to turn and clear properly, is that they focus on the weight on the inside of their right foot that they've put their by the body pivot in the backswing. They can feel that they can push gently from the inside of the right foot to make the small lateral hip move left, and weight pressure in left foot as the start of their transition. Gently being the operative word here though, as if you really push hard off the right instep and that's the general temptation here in the search for club-head speed, it will again move the hips left much too far and too soon, left leg will be bowed and your whole center (sternum, upper body) will be too far left to be able to make any proper kind of swing through impact. It works for some, though not many in my experience.

If you're a golfer whose lead foot can stay on the ground in a sound backswing move, feeling weight pressure into the ground initially through the ball and center of the left(lead) foot is the most reliable way of making a transition for most folks that I've found through my golf experience.


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## JustOne (Feb 10, 2014)

^
^
^

And to think.... *I* used to get it in the neck for 'detail'


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## pendodave (Feb 10, 2014)

I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.


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## lex! (Feb 10, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Golf, good golf is a game solely based on stability, a solid base - feet, knees, legs which has to 'ground' your golf swing. The importance of 'ground force' can't be stressed enough really, down through both feet. Against the inside right foot inside right thigh forcing your weight into the ground going back allowing you to 'wind up', and down into the ground against the left leg posted as the left hip clears going through towards swing finish. Without a solid base you can only get limited speed to the club-head, and little accuracy to the strike either if the golfer has a severe case of 'Elvis knees & legs'.

You can have a compact swing (well short of parallel going back, many top golfers do with their irons in particular, and quite a few with the driver, 3metal etc.) but there is still width there going back. Compact shouldn't and doesn't mean narrow going back. You need natural width going back as in a proper and good transition through to impact the arms will from transition both shallow out and narrow a little in the downswing. The one thing you have to guard against working on width going back, is, if you really reach out with your arms and club to try to gain width in an exaggerated way you'll disconnect your arms & club from your body pivot/turn, and then you'll struggle in trying to get back through the ball with any club-head speed or solid strike and pressure through the back of the ball.
		
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Another very good post. The advice about the solid base is so important I reckon. This is a really interesting thread and I enjoy following it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2014)

pendodave said:



			I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.
		
Click to expand...

Probably makes it 'more difficult' but not 'impossible'!

Key is finding a suitable work-around.

Plenty of really good amputee Golfers!


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## Jimbooo (Feb 10, 2014)

lex! said:



			Another very good post. The advice about the solid base is so important I reckon. This is a really interesting thread and I enjoy following it.
		
Click to expand...

I agree... great thread.  Many thanks the_coach (and others) for all the info. :thup:


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## the_coach (Feb 10, 2014)

pendodave said:



			I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.
		
Click to expand...


Don't despair you can still play very good golf, this doesn't preclude you at all.

You will by now be totally comfortable with your own 'balance' points and center gravity.

The left leg being bowed through impact that would impair impact that I was referring to was to do with folks that have been told to start their downswing transition with a lateral shift left of the hips. For some folks this may well be fine as they will be able to do this and only shift the 2" to 3" left, the so called 'bump' move and for the ones who can and this leads to weight centered on the left foot and that's all fine.

However I've found for most folks just concentrating on a shift left of the hips, as the start move usually leads to a bigger shift left first off, shift becomes big slide and this is where the problem I was speaking about starts.

Shift the left hip too far laterally straight away from the top and it goes well past the outside of your left foot, weight on outside of left foot too soon at the start of the downswing will lead to being unable to straighten the left leg (to whatever your particular 'straight' is when standing 'normally') so there remains too much flex in the knee, it's that extra knee flex 'bowing' the leg I was referring to, this will lead to not being able to clear the left hip well.

So concentrating on weight centered on left foot with the hip 'bump' left laterally at the start of the downswings transition will still be perfectly fine for you providing you don't slide the hip too far left straightaway and take the left hip too far past the outside of your left foot (if you took a vertical line from outside hip to outside left foot) and therefore weight would be too far to the outside of your left foot, making a solid left leg and hip clear left very difficult to achieve.
(to what ever extent would be 'normal' straight for you in your left leg will be okay given the above)

My fathers friend and normal playing partner (is around 63) plays off 5, (has been a Cat 1 player most of his life) at Spyglass, considered by most, (including me) to be one of the hardest tracks worldwide, and he is bow legged, brought up on a ranch has ridden as soon as his folks could put him and hold him on a pony. Hasn't done him any harm, good sound swing. So wouldn't worry about that one bit.


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