# Room For One More?



## jimbob.someroo (Oct 26, 2012)

Was reading the thread from yesterday and think I'll take the plunge and offer up my cobbled together swing for you guys to have a look at - and hopefully offer any advice?

I am pretty much completely self taught and have always been ok with my hands (oi oi!!!). However, I've been swaying a lot recently and my striking has been inconsistent. After reading the stack and tilt thread last week I went to the range and tried to put a few of the things into practice to stop me swaying too much and to turn my fade into a draw. I need to turn my left leg out a bit to give me a stronger base but quite liked the feeling of the swing.

The results are below! Please be gentle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLI46LZ_7NY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3TZfaFdxCc

Jim


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

Looks pretty good to me.
Go and practice your short game


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

I'd like to know when you're giving Robert Rock his hair back? :whoo:

(you know my thoughts already so I'll not post)


----------



## jimbob.someroo (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'd like to know when you're giving Robert Rock his hair back? :whoo:

(you know my thoughts already so I'll not post)
		
Click to expand...

I literally have no defence


----------



## duncan mackie (Oct 26, 2012)

I've seen many cat 1 golfers whose swings aren't anywhere near that good looking - off your handicap Bob's advice looks very sound!!!


----------



## jimbob.someroo (Oct 26, 2012)

Many thanks both. Will try and work on the short game over the winter


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

Lose the flex in the right knee in the backswing allowing the pelvis to rotate, thus increasing extension of the spine.

More of an inward hand path from the start to have the left arm along the line of the shoulders at the top.

The right elbow wants to maintain the distance it was from the ribcage at the setup.

Please see picture provided. Any further questions feel free to PM.

Sam


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 26, 2012)

jimbob.someroo said:



			I literally have no defence
	View attachment 3238
View attachment 3239

Click to expand...

Did you get custom fitted for that Olympic torch?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 26, 2012)

Nothing seriously wrong with that swing, only comment I would make is try to hold your head a little bit higher through impact to give yourself a bit more room.


----------



## jimbob.someroo (Oct 26, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Did you get custom fitted for that Olympic torch?
		
Click to expand...

It's the new 2012 Project X 'Olympic edition'. Only comes in xxx-stiff though so unfortunately no good for me.

Appreciate the comment re: higher head - will have a play at the range.


----------



## patricks148 (Oct 26, 2012)

I say are those jeans?


----------



## duncan mackie (Oct 26, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			Lose the flex in the right knee in the backswing allowing the pelvis to rotate, thus increasing extension of the spine.

More of an inward hand path from the start to have the left arm along the line of the shoulders at the top.

The right elbow wants to maintain the distance it was from the ribcage at the setup.

Please see picture provided. Any further questions feel free to PM.

Sam
		
Click to expand...

so that would be 'change to S&T' then....


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			so that would be 'change to S&T' then....
		
Click to expand...

It does say in the OP....




			After reading the *stack and tilt* thread last week I went to the range and tried to put a few of the things into practice
		
Click to expand...





My personal opinion would be that losing *some of the flex* in the right knee and stopping the 'flying elbow' would be a benefit no matter what swing pattern you go with. That right knee does look VERY flexed and the right elbow does look like it's a bit 'Furyk'.

If he really want to embrace the S&T swing in full (rather than just working on a few elements) then I'd suggest he follows Sam's advice... after all it isn't S&T if you don't do it the S&T way.


----------



## duncan mackie (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It does say in the OP....







My personal opinion would be that losing *some of the flex* in the right knee and stopping the 'flying elbow' would be a benefit no matter what swing pattern you go with. That right knee does look VERY flexed and the right elbow does look like it's a bit 'Furyk'.

If he really want to embrace the S&T swing in full (rather than just working on a few elements) then I'd suggest he follows Sam's advice... after all it isn't S&T if you don't do it the S&T way.
		
Click to expand...

ah - my mistake and apologies to Sam....more than valid observations against the request.

I do agree with your premise that you can't pick and choose elements


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

How can someone win 18 majors with a flying right elbow


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			How can someone win 18 majors with a flying right elbow 

Click to expand...

Did anyone actually mention Nicklaus?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			I do agree with your premise that you can't pick and choose elements 

Click to expand...

You *can* pick and choose elements however it wouldn't be S&T if you didn't do them all. Lots of players have many elements but they are not S&T per se.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Did anyone actually mention Nicklaus?
		
Click to expand...

Well if Jack won 18 majors with a flying right elbow it cant be that bad.


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			so that would be 'change to S&T' then....
		
Click to expand...

He's asked for an opinion I've offered mine.

See attached picture for right knee flex. How many of these players are S&T?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

How many majors has jimbob.someroo won?

Clearly he isn't/wasn't happy with what he was doing else he WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED TO CHANGE 



Not sure why you're bringing your 'argument head' to the thread again Bob, *FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH* my opinion of his swing when he PM'd it to me was pretty much the same as yours,...... nice swing, practice your short game. Although I did suggest a couple of small tweaks, eg turn out the left foot a fraction


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

Westwood and Donald Right elbow


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

Rock & Rory


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

Not sure why you're bringing your 'argument head' to the thread again Bob
		
Click to expand...

Terribly sorry, I thought I was entitled to an opinion.
I don't agree with several points Sam has made eg the flying elbow being wrong, moving the hands inwards on the backswing and straightening the right leg on the backswing. 
If Sam is allowed an opinion am I not allowed to voice my opinion also?


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Well if Jack won 18 majors with a flying right elbow it cant be that bad.
		
Click to expand...

Nicklaus had many wonderful elements in his swing. One of which would be a side tilt to the left at the top of the swing great extension. Bubba would agree, in addition both Nicklaus and Bubba demonstrate a fantastic flying wedge.


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Terribly sorry, I thought I was entitled to an opinion.
I don't agree with several points Sam has made eg the flying elbow being wrong, moving the hands inwards on the backswing and straightening the right leg on the backswing. 
If Sam is allowed an opinion am I not allowed to voice my opinion also?
		
Click to expand...

I did not say the flying elbow is wrong.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Terribly sorry, I thought I was entitled to an opinion.
I don't agree with several points Sam has made eg the flying elbow being wrong, moving the hands inwards on the backswing and straightening the right leg on the backswing. 
If Sam is allowed an opinion am I not allowed to voice my opinion also?
		
Click to expand...

Of course you are Bob, we all are :thup:

I felt that considering jimbob was trying some changes it appeared that it was working very well, and he should persist with it if it's working.

Should he want to develop it further then that's entirely up to him... and other people are free to add their tuppence.

Seeing as his OP was about entertaining some S&T elements it is worthwhile others pointing out other S&T elements that may get him closer to the pattern, is it not?


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			I did not say the flying elbow is wrong.
		
Click to expand...

So you want him to change something that's not wrong?


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

Seeing as his OP was about entertaining some S&T elements it is  worthwhile others pointing out other S&T elements that may get him  closer to the pattern, is it not?
		
Click to expand...

If I dont agree with the advice being given, should I not speak up?
It just gives the OP both sides of the S&T discussion


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So you want him to change something that's not wrong?
		
Click to expand...

I do not want to be misquoted, I didn't say any of it was wrong.

He asked what he should improve. Those are my recommendations.

I'm happy to discuss why I'd recommend those changes. 

The inward hand path, the right elbow and the change in knee flex are all linked. 

If you'd like to know more please feel free to call to discuss.

Sam


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If I dont agree with the advice being given, should I not speak up?
It just gives the OP both sides of the S&T discussion
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely! YES,..... as long as you don't end up throwing your toys outta your pram AGAIN. I can talk about this stuff all day Bob, as you know


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

More right knees which have lost their original flex.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Absolutely! YES,..... as long as you don't end up throwing your toys outta your pram AGAIN. I can talk about this stuff all day Bob, as you know 

Click to expand...

Someone gave me some advice on here a while ago. He said "Dont argue with James, he's always right, even when he's wrong."
So I dont bother any more.
Sam is obviously as passionate about the S&T system as you are and we could spend all night posting pictures of bent knee/straight knee blah blah blah to prove our points.
I just dont want newcommers to golf thinking there is only one way to play golf...the S&T way.

So if anyone wants to know my opinion, pm  me. That seems the way it's done nowadays.




			If you'd like to know more please feel free to call to discuss.
		
Click to expand...

No thank you


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Someone gave me some advice on here a while ago. He said "Dont argue with James, he's always right, even when he's wrong."
So I dont bother any more.
Sam is obviously as passionate about the S&T system as you are and we could spend all night posting pictures of bent knee/straight knee blah blah blah to prove our points.
I just dont want newcommers to golf thinking there is only one way to play golf...the S&T way.

So if anyone wants to know my opinion, pm  me. That seems the way it's done nowadays.



No thank you
		
Click to expand...

The offer still stands Bob, and yes I am passionate about S&T, TGM, MORAD, Aimpoint. Golf in general.

Sam


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I just dont want newcommers to golf thinking there is only one way to play golf...the S&T way.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, there's many ways to skin a cat..... jimbob.someroo is trying the S&T way.... well elements of it, so like it or not it's a S&T thread and we CAN talk about the S&T way if we want.


... and if you want to talk anti-S&T then that's 100% fine with me :thup:




I'm sure there's more than one way to putt..... :ears:


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			The offer still stands Bob, and yes I am passionate about S&T, TGM, MORAD, Aimpoint. Golf in general.

Sam
		
Click to expand...

Just more people trying to make a name for themselves in golf by inventing a new system to part golfers from their money.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the new S&T DVD $150 ?
If it's that simple a system, why does it need a second DVD?

I've spent the last 45 years playing golf to a high standard without all the stuff being written about today but yes, I have read it but I have no intention of using the vast majority of it in my teaching.

So by all means, give people S&T advice, but if I don't agree with it, you can be sure I'll speak up.


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Just more people trying to make a name for themselves in golf by inventing a new system to part golfers from their money.
		
Click to expand...

Are you referring to Leadbetter? :rofl:


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Are you referring to Leadbetter? :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

There's a thought. I could sell him some V-Easys :whoo:


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

Heh, I'd never complain about people parting others from their cash if I had invented a putting aid!


----------



## bobmac (Oct 26, 2012)

Merlot time


----------



## Oddsocks (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Heh, I'd never complain about people parting others from their cash if I had invented a putting aid! 

Click to expand...

HID isn't happy! I've jut spat JD all over her iPad lol


----------



## JustOne (Oct 26, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			HID isn't happy! I've jut spat JD all over her iPad lol
		
Click to expand...

You spat John Daly all over her iPad? :clap:


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 26, 2012)

Bob,

Andy and Mike did not set out to make a name for themselves in golf, the success they enjoy is as a result of many players enjoying 
improvements in their swings and thus making more money on tour and then golf digest taking an interest and doing the article.
The 'Stack and Tilt' brand was not a name A & M branded themselves with this was assigned to them.

Yes the new DVD is $150. 
This DVD goes into far more detail than the first with classification and clarification from Trackman, 3D motion analysis and force plate data.

I intend to give golfers advice when asked for and please do speak up if you don't agree, I'd encourage you to do so. 
All I'd ask for is an explanation as to why you don't agree.

To use the right knee flex as an example, in an earlier post you state you could put together a catalogue of players maintaining their original knee flex, I'd be interested to see that.

I'll say this:

The golfer benefits losing flex in the trail leg to allow the hips to turn on a tilted angle and ultimately have the spine go from flexion (spine still curved) to extension (spine straight)
If the golfer maintains the original knee flex they are likely to turn in flexion and not have enough degree of freedom for the left shoulder (centre of rotation) to move in front of the sternum (centre of the swing) (from the face on /  caddie view).

The golfer maintaining the trail leg knee bend will experience a reduced shoulder turn and not realise his/hers potential in distance or worse compromise the stability of the centre and therefore the point at which the club hits the ground (low point), ultimately suffering with fat shots and then thin shots to avoid the fat ones!

I'm sure you have spent the last 45 years playing golf to a high standard, the stuff, as you put it being written about today is not new information. To use a player you referred to earlier, Nicklaus,
 " I don't believe in a lateral shift, of course not, I believe in staying on the ball" 
Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers, 
"They don't know how to play"

Sam


----------



## Oddsocks (Oct 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			You spat John Daly all over her iPad? :clap:
		
Click to expand...

Ooooo look who's on form today


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Someone gave me some advice on here a while ago. He said "Dont argue with James, he's always right, even when he's wrong."
So I dont bother any more.
Sam is obviously as passionate about the S&T system as you are and we could spend all night posting pictures of bent knee/straight knee blah blah blah to prove our points.
I just dont want newcommers to golf thinking there is only one way to play golf...the S&T way.

So if anyone wants to know my opinion, pm  me. That seems the way it's done nowadays.



No thank you
		
Click to expand...

Does anybody want to buy a Garmin S1?


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

Wow! This has been an entertaining read!

I thought it was an offer of a round of golf, that I don't have time for at the mo.

JimBob. S&T may or may not be your path to better golf, so good luck finding out. 

Certainly seems a nice swing in the vids, if a tad more leg action than I would expect. The de-flexed right leg seems fundamental to the S&T way and - as pointed out and does help 'non S&T' players to 'stay centred'. 

My advice (FWIW) would be that if you want to incorporate elements (only) of S&T, then listen to Sam and/or JO.

Bob's advice re practicing the short game is great though.

Bob, Try something different  ...   ....   .....   .....   ....  Argentinian Malbec!


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

I've just spent ages writing a detailed reply with pictures and everything and then lost it :angry:
So, instead of writing it all out again I shall summarise...

For those of you who want to try the S&T system....
So, start with the weight favouring the left side, swing back on the  inside, tilting the shoulders down towards the ball and straighten out  your right leg moving your weight forward all the time. Then, don't  throw at the top (which is what most handicapped golfers would do with  that backswing), instead, slide the hips even further towards the target keeping the club  approaching the ball from the inside, then move even more weight forward  keeping the upper centre back and swing through into a curtailed follow  through... oh and dont forget, dont release your hands.

Now wonder it took James 5 hours to teach Oddsox that lot. 

My advice.....
Keep the head still, stay centred and turn better.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

Argentinian Malbec!
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't he play for Chelsea?


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			My advice.....*Keep the head still*, stay centred and turn better.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't *this* the worst piece of advice possible?

How did David Duval and Annika Sorenstam get to World #1s with a huge mount of head movement!

In fact,can you name anybody who keeps their head still during the entire swing? I don't believe it's possible!

How about 'Keep the head under control'?

Stay Centred and Turn Better sound fine, Somewhat lacking on detail perhaps though.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't *this* the worst piece of advice possible?

How did David Duval and Annika Sorenstam get to World #1s with a huge mount of head movement!

How about 'Keep the head under control'?
		
Click to expand...

I think people talk about keeping the head DOWN is bad advice

I should have added...
Keep the head still *on the backswing*.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

Stay Centred and Turn Better sound fine, Somewhat lacking on detail perhaps though
		
Click to expand...

How much detail do you need in your head when turning back and through?

If the OP wants to swing the club back on the inside while keeping his right leg straight, pointing his right forearm down to the ground and keeping more height through impact, good luck to him.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2012)

IMO the advice on losing flex in the right leg is OK for S&T but bad in a conventional swing.   The pictures given with golfers having straightened right legs in the backswing are misleading;  The left knees are turning back and flexing which gives an illusion of the right knee being straighter.  You need to compare the right knee to it's address position to make a true evaluation.  In a more traditional swing loosing flex in the right knee will assist in creating a reverse pivot which is not good at all, it leads to the dropping the left shoulder and blocks the free swing of the arms, also the ability to rotate the body.   Check out what Ben Hogan says about in in 5 Lessons.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			IMO the advice on losing flex in the right leg is OK for S&T but bad in a conventional swing. The pictures given with golfers having straightened right legs in the backswing are misleading;
		
Click to expand...

@SR Are you saying that you can't be absolutely certain of what has gone on before the 'frame' of a still pic?!  Sounds a familiar comment! 

As a major (main?) function of the stiffened right leg is to act as a brace to prevent the weight shifting (from the centre), then I'd whole-heartedly agree!

Does seem to me that while there are very many 'traditional' (weight shift) swings - every player having slightly different characteristics - there appears, to me at least, only 1 way (or at least a very limited number of ways) to be proper S&T. It seems to me that over a period of time this will change so that the 'elements that work for me/you' approach will happen and a S&T style will evolve from the pure method.



bobmac said:



			I think people talk about keeping the head DOWN is bad advice

I should have added...
Keep the head still *on the backswing*.
		
Click to expand...

Bob. Surely, the head is facing DOWN at address, so if, as you are advocating, you keep it still on the backswing, you are also advocating keeping it DOWN on the backswing. Of course, this raises more questions (more than it answers?). Do you therefore think it's then ok to move the head about on the downswing! And just exactly what do you mean by 'still'? Is it still relative to the ground - if so how do you actually perform the weight transfer (into the right instep)? If it's still relative to the body's centre of gravity then, as the centre of gravity moves, THE HEAD MUST MOVE - albeit in a controlled way! And that's only relating to the 'x-axis' (hirizontal) movement. There's a 'y-axis' (vertical) involved as well! I think we can agree that z-axis head movement can seriously screw up balance!


----------



## JustOne (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I should have added...
Keep the head still *on the backswing*.
		
Click to expand...

Very, very, very interesting Bob....... why not explain to everyone HOW to do that?




As far as I can tell if you keep your head still on your backswing you are either going to be...
a) reverse pivoting (if shifting weight to the right whilst trying to keep your head still over the ball)
b) somewhat stacked (if not shifting weight)

So seeing as you deplore S&T you must be advocating a reverse pivot? I'm sure you're not doing that... are you? 

I can't imagine that you'd knowingly suggest to people that they reverse pivot so they *must* therefore be *stacked* somewhat over the ball.


So that's the weight shift part of the swing sorted... there can't be one if you keep your head still as you suggest.



So now we establish that there is no weight shift we need to figure out how the shoulders are going to turn. In order for the head to remain still (as you suggest) you *must *come out of the flexion at address (forward bend) into a side *tilt* at the top of the backswing...else your head would move to the right.. would it not? 


So therefore for the head to remain still they *must* have tilted.... sounds very much like erm,... stack and tilt to me. 





Like I said, feel free to explain how you suggest people swing whilst maintaining a still head in the backswing because at the moment it appears to me to be impossible if you don't remain stacked... and tilted.



I'd love to know more about this centered swing that you've started suggesting everyone use, that *isn't* stacked or tilted.... and keeps the head still........ sounds awesome!


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

As far as I can tell if you keep your head still on your backswing you are either going to be...
a) reverse pivoting (if shifting weight to the right whilst trying to keep your head still over the ball)
b) somewhat stacked (if not shifting weight)
		
Click to expand...

As I understand, reverse pivot is when you move the weight forward on the backswing (hmmmm) and back onto your back foot on the downswing. The word 'reverse' is the clue.
As for stacked, there's a big difference between being stacked on your left side and staying centred.




			So that's the weight shift part of the swing sorted... there can't be one if you keep your head still as you suggest.
		
Click to expand...

Can you find any quotes from me saying you should load up the right side. I've always talked about staying centred when I give advice on here.




			So therefore for the head to remain still they *must* have tilted
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say they didn't ?
If you stay in the same posture during the backswing your shoulders will tilt, they have to as your upper body is tilted forward, just not as far down as some would suggest.




			Like I said, feel free to explain how you suggest people swing whilst  maintaining a still head in the backswing because at the moment it  appears to me to be impossible if you don't remain stacked... and  tilted.
		
Click to expand...

So, if you want to keep your head still, you have to be stacked? So how do you move the weight forward and keep the head still without a severe tilt of the spine away from the target. And people wonder why S&T gives them a bad back.




			I'd love to know more about this centered swing *that you've started suggesting everyone use*, that *isn't* stacked or tilted.... and keeps the head still........ sounds awesome!
		
Click to expand...

Yeup, I started telling people to do this in the late 70s the difference is I wasn't telling them to start with their weight on the left side and move it more left throughout the whole swing


----------



## JustOne (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			there's a big difference between being stacked on your left side and staying centred.
		
Click to expand...

Not really 55/45 as opposed to 50/50 isn't a big difference - your advocating being stacked but just a fraction more central



bobmac said:



			If you stay in the same posture during the backswing your shoulders will tilt
		
Click to expand...

Ok, so that's a yes to the tilt.....




Not quite getting what your radical new swing is if it isn't somewhat stacked and somewhat tilted..... pretty rich from someone who vehemently abhors the stack and tilt swing  

It sounds to me like you're pretty much making it up as you go along.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			@SR Are you saying that you can't be absolutely certain of what has gone on before the 'frame' of a still pic?!  Sounds a familiar comment! 

Click to expand...

@FH   Are you suggesting I have previously said that you cant be absolutely certain of what has gone before the 'frame' of a still pic?!  I think you may be mixing me up with someone else there


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			As I understand, reverse pivot is when you move the weight forward on the backswing (hmmmm) and back onto your back foot on the downswing. The word 'reverse' is the clue.
As for stacked, there's a big difference between being stacked on your left side and staying centred.
		
Click to expand...

H'mm. That's not what I believe is the fundamental nature of the term, but maybe an effect of the RP - that then cuses ll sorts of other issues..

In the (W/T) backswing, the spine should angle - pivot - slightly away from the target, moving the weight slightly onto the right side. Th Reverse Pivot is when the spine is angled towards the target.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

Not really 55/45 as opposed to 50/50 isn't a big difference
		
Click to expand...

So the people who teach S&T who START the swing at 45/55 favouring the left side then move the weight forward even more are wrong?




			Ok, so that's a yes to the tilt.....
		
Click to expand...

Not for everyone







			Not quite getting what your *radical new swing* is
		
Click to expand...

It's not radical, it's new and it's not my creation




			pretty rich from someone who *vehemently  abhors* the stack and tilt swing
		
Click to expand...

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I've never said that or anything close. I just say I wouldn't teach it.





			It sounds to me like you're pretty much making it up as you go along.
		
Click to expand...

Nope. Just repeating what I've been saying for the last 40 years


----------



## jimbob.someroo (Oct 27, 2012)

Well this all got a bit heated didn't it!

Firstly I want to say thanks to everyone who's offered up advice. It is greatly appreciated.

Secondly, just wanted to throw in my two cents on the whole 'disagreement'  I've played for a few years now getting down to six before stopping for a while. Since I've started again I've been woefully inconsistent hence looking for a few ways of getting a more regular swing. I'm not saying s&t is the answer for me, I actually don't think it is. But there are a few elements which seemed to have helped. 

I've always had a pretty active lower half (wayyyyohhh!) and I don't think that will change quickly. I'm not overly technical and rely a lot on feel. I want to keep that element of my golf - for me it's what makes it fun. Like any method s&t gives you a few things to think about and coincidentally these were the things that needed working on - mainly swaying and an out to in swing path.

I'll see what happens over the winter but the likelyhood is, it won't be too different to what you saw in the vids. I like that there are a million different ways to get a ball round a course and that two people can shoot the same score using totally different methods.

Peace and love x


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

mainly swaying and an out to in swing path.
		
Click to expand...

So that will be keep the head still on the backswing to help with the sway and my *head cover* drill to help with the swing path


----------



## JustOne (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Not for everyone






Click to expand...

That's my 'Bubba fade' Bob, it doesn't have a great deal to do with my S&T swing apart from the parts that I tend to do naturally nowadays. I'm about to lob the club as far out-to-in as I can in an attempt to slice the cover off the ball 

That said you're probably right, I *DO* need to get a little more tilted towards the ball with my shoulders, thanks for bringing that to my attention - you're a star!


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			@FH   Are you suggesting I have previously said that you cant be absolutely certain of what has gone before the 'frame' of a still pic?!  I think you may be mixing me up with someone else there 

Click to expand...

Not at all! Just using you as an 'ally'!  disagree-ing with Gareth in the Roll-Your-Wrist (Fore-arms!) thread Your post in this one certainly implied that you can't.......


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

thanks for bringing that to my attention - you're a star! 

Click to expand...

I'm here all weekend :ears:


----------



## JustOne (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I'm here all weekend :ears:
		
Click to expand...

........ I'm sure we'll notice that :whoo:


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So the people who teach S&T who START the swing at 45/55 favouring the left side then move the weight forward even more are wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't the W/T swing move weight back to the left on the downswing so that, at impact, the 2 styles have the same balance (80-85% on the left)? Who said either, therefore both, were wrong?



bobmac said:



			There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I've never said that or anything close. I just say I wouldn't teach it.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

How would you handle an S&T-er who came to you for a lesson though? De-convert him; send him elsewhere? teach but with disclaimer?


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

at impact, the 2 styles have the same balance (80-85% on the left
		
Click to expand...

The S&T would probably be that at impact but not the swing I prefer.




			How would you handle an S&T-er who came to you for a lesson though?  De-convert him; send him elsewhere? teach but with disclaimer?
		
Click to expand...

Good question.
I would watch his ball flight, ask him what he wanted help with and together we would work out how to deal with his problems.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 27, 2012)

Jim Hardy's Plane Truth - all you ever need :mmm:


----------



## Pro Zach (Oct 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Not really 55/45 as opposed to 50/50 isn't a big difference - your advocating being stacked but just a fraction more central


Click to expand...

 If there are no people in the room do you argue with a chair?


 In the context of this discussion 50/50 is not 'a fraction more central'. It is central by definition. ie it does not have bias either way. It is only from this defined standard that 55/45 has meaning.


----------



## Pro Zach (Oct 27, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Jim Hardy's Plane Truth - all you ever need :mmm:

Click to expand...

  I haven't read it. Is the 'plane truth' that you should change your swing every year and have a negative view on your prospects of perfecting your short game?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 27, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			If there are no people in the room do you argue with a chair?


 In the context of this discussion 50/50 is not 'a fraction more central'. It is central by definition. ie it does not have bias either way. It is only from this defined standard that 55/45 has meaning.
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes... fortunately you have joined in so I don't need to 

I'm happy to conceed that Bobmac's 'centrally stacked and tilted' swing is nothing like stack and tilt which is at least good 10% more weight to the left.... chalk and cheese!  



It does make me wonder what happens at the top of Bobmac's '_centrally stacked and tilted that doesn't resemble stack and tilt at all_' golf swing,.... is there any transition into the left side or is it pretty much flat footed and a flip at the ball with the wrists?


----------



## bobmac (Oct 27, 2012)

is there any transition into the left side or is it pretty much flat footed and a flip at the ball with the wrists?
		
Click to expand...

I just keep my head still on the backswing and turn through into a straight left side at the end.
Nothing complicated and it works for me


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 27, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			I haven't read it. Is the 'plane truth' that you should change your swing every year and have a negative view on your prospects of perfecting your short game?

Click to expand...

Not changing - refining. Trying to eliminate a couple of big faults that mean the swing is too inconsistent. As for the short game, it really is as bad as I say.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I just keep my head still on the backswing and turn through into a straight left side at the end.
Nothing complicated and it works for me
		
Click to expand...

And me Bob .   My head may well move a little but its not a deliberate movement.  I feel as if I pivot into mt right leg which reduces sway, a bit like Tom Watsons feeling of turning in a barrell.


----------



## duncan mackie (Oct 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			....... is it pretty much flat footed and a flip at the ball with the wrists? 

Click to expand...

please don't bring my swing into this discussion...


----------



## Pro Zach (Oct 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Sometimes... fortunately you have joined in so I don't need to 

I'm happy to conceed that Bobmac's 'centrally stacked and tilted' swing is nothing like stack and tilt which is at least good 10% more weight to the left.... chalk and cheese!  



It does make me wonder what happens at the top of Bobmac's '_centrally stacked and tilted that doesn't resemble stack and tilt at all_' golf swing,.... is there any transition into the left side or is it pretty much flat footed and a flip at the ball with the wrists? 

Click to expand...

 Centrally stacked?   So all swings are stacked, it is just the degree that differs?


 I thought the 10% more weight to the left (of central) is what made it stacked. Therefore centrally stacked would be an oxymoron.


  If you don't accept 'central' as not stacked then your 10% weight to the left is a comparison against 10% right of the 10% left. Unfortunately where ever you are in space and time, you will always be 10% left of where you would be if you where 10% right.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I just keep my head still on the backswing and turn through into a straight left side at the end.
Nothing complicated and it works for me
		
Click to expand...

What you think you do and what you actually do ain't always the same in a golf swing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I

:rofl:


----------



## G1BB0 (Oct 27, 2012)

well I am going full on for s&t, if it works then fair enough, had enough lessons trying a traditional (if there is such a thing) swing and I am still crap

I may be limited by lack of ability but the s&t swing seems more up my alley at this point in time


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't get it.
From what I've seen of S&T you just end up playing your next shot from out of trees, or taking a drop next to a hazard.
It's a very costly method of playing golf in my eyes as it costs you an awful lot of shots


----------



## Pro Zach (Oct 28, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			I don't get it.
From what I've seen of S&T you just end up playing your next shot from out of trees, or taking a drop next to a hazard.
It's a very costly method of playing golf in my eyes as it costs you an awful lot of shots
		
Click to expand...

When you said you were taking up fishing..........................


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 28, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			When you said you were taking up fishing..........................
		
Click to expand...

Yeah


----------



## bobmac (Oct 28, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			well I am going full on for s&t, if it works then fair enough, had enough lessons trying a traditional (if there is such a thing) swing and I am still crap

I may be limited by lack of ability but the s&t swing seems more up my alley at this point in time 

Click to expand...

Ok, here's your first lesson on the S&T

Take away

Start with your weight 60-40 on your left side, both feet flared out 20 deg
Tilt your left side whilst dropping your left shoulder so it almost points to the ball, whilst flexing the left  knee towards the ball pressing into your left foot and straightening the right leg and also  straightening your spine, swing your hands back inside the line so when your leading arm is parallel to the ground, it will be 40 degrees to the toe line and do NOT let the shoulders and hips move back, they move forward and make sure your left shoulder (centre of rotation)  moves in front of your sternum not forgetting to keep the weight moving forward while keeping the upper centre back.
I think that concludes the take away but I may have missed something.

However, I did read an article that says if you have an out to in downswing, you should fix that first before trying the S&T system.

HTH
$75 please


----------



## JustOne (Oct 28, 2012)

I see what you're doing there Bob although I wonder what the 'first lesson' checklist would be like for a more conventional 'Bobmac' type swing?

Set up with your weight 50/50, keep your left foot square to the target line, stand up quite tall so that your shoulders turn flat, now, without moving your head transfer the weight to the inside of your right foot, don't turn your hips - resist!.. whilst taking the club away lo-and-slow, one piece, (knocking a ball out of the way back if possible as a drill) and cocking the wrists early to get the club up on plane. Don't take it too flat else you'll cast from the top and need to use the head cover drill to learn how to control your path, so so lift it more with the hands. Transfer some weight onto your left foot, but not too much, try to drop the hands to the inside of the target line whilst bringing the club back to the ball with the hands not ahead of it ensuring that somehow you strike the ball in a downwards motion (stick a load of tees in the ground and try to miss some of them) remember to spin the hips open, square the face, roll the hands over through impact to a high finish posting up on the left foot with the club wrapped around your neck...without hurting your back... somehow.

HTH
$75 please


----------



## Oddsocks (Oct 28, 2012)

Are you girls still stuck at foreplay


----------



## bobmac (Oct 28, 2012)

JustOne said:





I see what you're doing there Bob although I wonder what the 'first lesson' checklist would be like for a more conventional 'Bobmac' type swing?

Set up with your weight 50/50 *Yes*, keep your left foot square to the target line Nope, stand up quite tall so that your shoulders turn flat Nope, now, without moving your head transfer the weight to the inside of your right foot, don't turn your hips - resist Nope!.. whilst taking the club away lo-and-slow, *one piece*, (knocking a ball out of the way back if possible as a drill Nope) and *cocking the wrists early* to get the club up on plane Nope. Don't take it too flat else you'll cast from the top Nope and need to use the head cover drill to learn how to control your path *Yes* , so so lift it more with the hands Nope. Transfer some weight onto your left foot, but not too much Nope, try to drop the hands to the inside of the target line whilst bringing the club back to the ball with the hands not ahead of it Nope ensuring that somehow you strike the ball in a downwards motion (stick a load of tees in the ground and try to miss some of them) remember to spin the hips open Nope, square the face, roll the hands over through impact to a high finish posting up on the left foot with the club wrapped around your neck...without hurting your back... somehow. Nope

HTH
$75 please 

Click to expand...

So, start with the weight 50/50 thats the take away sorted. After all, who hits the ball on the take away.

[video=youtube;bhBL4jB--Z4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhBL4jB--Z4&amp;feature=plcp[/video]

I prefer to focus on the impact area

BTW, you must explain how you can do a one piece take away AND have an early wrist cock.
And a cast from the top is an early release of the angle set between the left forearm and shaft, not a throw where the club is thrown outside the line and above plane.

In my post I only described the takeaway, not the whole swing as you attempted. That why I only charged half price.

And do you have any comment about out to in swingers learning S&T ?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			And do you have any comment about out to in swingers learning S&T ?
		
Click to expand...

The basic S&T pattern is for a push-draw so people won't be swinging out-to-in. The swing pattern will fix their path and they should hit nice draw shots.

As for my tongue in cheek post above I thought there was at least 3 ways to take the club away in the 'standard swing', low-and-slow, early wrist cock, something in between? No one has decided which of these ways is actually the correct way however I believe these 3 different takeaways are for the variety of commonly played shots - fat, thin and topped :ears:


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

Flippin heck James, are you still up ?
Or are you up early ?


----------



## JustOne (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Flippin heck James, are you still up ?
Or are you up early ?
		
Click to expand...

Still up..... just got in 

Why do you get up so blinking early? Is there really that much to get up for at 5.30am?


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 29, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Is there really that much to get up for at 5.30am?
		
Click to expand...

My best erections are at this time of the morning.
Bugger. Just knocked my coffee mug off the table
:mmm:


----------



## JustOne (Oct 29, 2012)

Yeh, Sam told me on a bad night you often flip yourself onto the wardrobe! :whoo:


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

I believe these 3 different takeaways are for the variety of commonly played shots - fat, thin and topped
		
Click to expand...

And I always thought 
the fat shot was caused by players swaying off the ball and not staying centred or as I call them 'the self taught'
the thin shot was caused by players moving the weight forward on the backswing then back on the downswing
and the top was caused by having too much weight on the front foot causing a steep out to in swing and deep divots after the 'top'

But seriously, for someone who is relatively new to the game and has an out to in swing, I think  S&T would be a difficult method to master especially if learned from a book un-supervised.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Why do you get up so blinking early? Is there really that much to get up for at 5.30am?
		
Click to expand...

I prefer early mornings to late nights


----------



## big_russ (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I think  S&T would be a difficult method to master especially if learned from a book un-supervised.
		
Click to expand...

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that statement Bob and as much as I agree with the swing pattern and perform it to the best of my ability the biggest negative about it is the small amount of authorised instructors who can ensure you are on the right tracks.
Fortunately for me my club pro is one of the authorised instructors but even so if I try to implement certain elements of the swing between lessons I do not always get it right and have to be corrected further down the line.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

the biggest negative about it is the small amount of authorised instructors who can ensure you are on the right tracks.
		
Click to expand...

For $750 a pro can take the first step to becoming a S&T teacher.
For that you get 
a manual
A password to the secret members area of the website
Limited use of the S&T logo
a S&T email address
and a certificate proving you are a 'Network Instructor'

If you then pass all the tests and pay another $750 you will then become an Authorised Instructor

Finally, after another $750, you become an 'Expert instructor' which means you may host S&T golf schools, limited use of the logo and a few other bits and pieces

If you want to know more
http://stackandtilt.com/stack-and-tilt-authorized-instructor-program/


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			For $750 a pro can take the first step to becoming a S&T teacher.
For that you get 
a manual
A password to the secret members area of the website
Limited use of the S&T logo
a S&T email address
and a certificate proving you are a 'Network Instructor'

If you then pass all the tests and pay another $750 you will then become an Authorised Instructor

Finally, after another $750, you become an 'Expert instructor' which means you may host S&T golf schools, limited use of the logo and a few other bits and pieces

If you want to know more
http://stackandtilt.com/stack-and-tilt-authorized-instructor-program/

Click to expand...

You've failed to mention the time spent with Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett.

The above was not my journey.

I'm looking forward to spending more time with Andy this coming weekend in Spain and continue my learning.


----------



## virtuocity (Oct 29, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			I'm looking forward to spending more time with Andy this coming weekend in Spain and continue my learning.
		
Click to expand...

Not jealous.  Honest.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			The above was not my journey.
		
Click to expand...

There's another way of getting authorised ?


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			There's another way of getting authorised ?
		
Click to expand...

There was at the beginning.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 29, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			There was at the beginning.
		
Click to expand...

I missed the boat then


----------



## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 29, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I missed the boat then
		
Click to expand...

I guess you did.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			My best erections are at this time of the morning.
Bugger. Just knocked my coffee mug off the table
:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

On the plus side it stops you rolling out of bed.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 29, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			My best erections are at this time of the morning.
Bugger. Just knocked my coffee mug off the table
:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

That's only because you need a pee   :ears:


----------

