# Smart Motorways!



## Golfmmad (Oct 24, 2019)

Or are they?

Its been on the news a lot today - they may need a rethink!

Was talking with a colleague today and as I understand ,there is only one Smart motorway with the full technology!
Why? Because the Government wanted to save money and build without all the tech. I find this absolute madness - I travel on the 11 miles of the M23 sometimes 3 or 4 times daily and see all the work and construction at the cost of millions, and it probably wont have all the safety features that it should have. 
Sensors to detect multiple braking, an accident or breakdown, in order to warn with speed notifications and lane closure - instantly! Rather than someone viewing a screen and reacting, or a phone call from a motorist.
Obviously those vital early seconds could make all the difference to avoiding a tragedy.

So now the Government are halting any new openings and are carrying out an urgent safety review.

What does the Forum think?


----------



## chrisd (Oct 24, 2019)

The M20 is being  turned into Smart motorway and its caused havoc for absolutely ages and now the government say it could be the last one as motorists dont know how to use them - you couldn't make it up!


----------



## USER1999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Smart bits of the M25 and M3 are a nonsense. The speed limits yoyo up and down, do nothing to relieve congestion, and just generate speeding tickets, as it is next to impossible to keep to a constantly changing limit. Utter garbage in my opinion. At best money making schemes.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2019)

Works fine on the M42. 

Perhaps it's just a Southerner problem.


----------



## USER1999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Do your limits go 40, 60, 30, 50, 30, 60, 40? On consecutive gantries, when there is zero traffic, and then flicker from 70 to 60 when you haven't moved for 20 minutes?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Seem to work fine on M3 and M42  - and indeed any otehr motorway I've been on that is SMART.  No issues.


----------



## USER1999 (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seem to work fine on M3 and M42  - and indeed any otehr motorway I've been on that is SMART.  No issues.
		
Click to expand...

You clearly don't drive on the M3 on Sunday afternoons.


----------



## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Smart bits of the M25 and M3 are a nonsense. The speed limits yoyo up and down, do nothing to relieve congestion, and just generate speeding tickets, as it is next to impossible to keep to a constantly changing limit. Utter garbage in my opinion. At best money making schemes.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s all about making money! 
Removing the barriers from the dartford tunnel was used as a trial for camera recognition


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 24, 2019)

It not that the motorways are now smart, it's that motorists are still thick when using motorways or any highway that has more than one lane. Going to smart/4 lanes just gives blinkered drivers another lane to hog. The problem is in this country is Starting from left to right, inside lane is slowest going out to the fastest. It just does not work. Undertaking should be legalised.
Trouble is as well in this country, speed limit on motorways. Lorrys do what 56mph Max. Maximum is 70 mph. Really. Ave seen cars averaging 80 mph and the rest. Yet when driving in Oz the speed limit Max is 110 kph. And nearly everyone drives at that speed or close to 100 kph. It is strange seeing the same cars alongside you for miles and miles. Yet it works.


----------



## rulefan (Oct 24, 2019)

The problem is breakdowns on the non existent hard shoulder


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

The M5 and M42 smart motorways seem to work well in our area.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 25, 2019)

There is nothing SMART about a motorway without a hard shoulder; no safety zones for breakdowns; no emergency service access when there is an issue without going against the flow. Whichever Minister signed this off deserves shooting.


----------



## Ross61 (Oct 25, 2019)

Absolute nightmare on M1. Apart from the illogical speed limits at times, the switching from 3 to 4 lanes also defies logic. I travel south from J12 in the early morning heavy traffic and invariably it is 3 lanes, then mid day with light traffic it is 4 lanes!. Then there is the problem of where at junctions it is always 4 open lanes, but then it goes down to 3 with the near side lane has to get over in heavy traffic causing a bottleneck. On the section I use you have 4 lanes past J12 and toddington services then 3 lanes to J11a when itâ€™s back to 4 then 3 lanes until J11 then 4 again  all in the space of about 5 miles!
  Donâ€™t even get me going on the safety issue of emergency vehicles trying to weave through 4 standstill lanes when there has been an accident. Argh!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			You clearly don't drive on the M3 on Sunday afternoons.
		
Click to expand...

I mostly avoid the M3 if I have a choice...for historic traffic reasons (grim) I have worked out my alternative routes.


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Works fine on the M42.
		
Click to expand...

Not for me. A nightmare. The screens constantly change. Some don't even work on the same gantry.
Highways England have admitted that smart motorways are too confusing for drivers.
Accidents all the time and fatalities.
This week there was a 90 minute hold up on the smart section of the M42.
Speed cameras are partly hidden on the side of the gantries.
I've been done for speeding there at 70 mph one evening when the motorway was actually clear.
The technology is unreliable.


----------



## Fade and Die (Oct 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			It not that the motorways are now smart, it's that motorists are still thick when using motorways or any highway that has more than one lane. Going to smart/4 lanes just gives blinkered drivers another lane to hog. The problem is in this country is Starting from left to right, inside lane is slowest going out to the fastest. It just does not work. Undertaking should be legalised.
Trouble is as well in this country, speed limit on motorways. Lorrys do what 56mph Max. Maximum is 70 mph. Really. Ave seen cars averaging 80 mph and the rest. Yet when driving in Oz the speed limit Max is 110 kph. And nearly everyone drives at that speed or close to 100 kph. It is strange seeing the same cars alongside you for miles and miles. Yet it works.
		
Click to expand...

Not illegal to undertake if someone is hogging a lane......

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q891.htm


----------



## Robster59 (Oct 25, 2019)

I have tended to find that the variable speed limit on the M6 in the Birmingham area has helped as people tend to stick to the variable speed limit more and it keeps the traffic moving.  Without this people go mad, brake at the last minute and it seems to cause more gridlock.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not illegal to undertake if someone is hogging a lane......

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q891.htm

Click to expand...

I must of misread that coz the way I read it you would be prosecuted.


----------



## Robster59 (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not illegal to undertake if someone is hogging a lane......

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q891.htm

Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.  Looking at the key phrases in the statement...

do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. 
Pretty self-explanatory to me, you don't overtake on the left.

In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.  
This is congested conditions, i.e. very slow moving traffic as in traffic jams.  Nowhere here does it say anything about undertaking someone hogging a middle lane.  

OFFENCE
Overtaking on the left is lawful if done in accordance with the above guidance. However, whilst there is no specific offence of overtaking on the left, if a driver undertook another vehicle, other than in the circumstances described above e.g. in the case of someone hogging lane 2 on a motorway, they may be prosecuted for careless driving. 
You'd be hard-pushed to convince a court that a middle-lane hogger can be classed the same as congested traffic.


----------



## Fade and Die (Oct 25, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			I think you're wrong.  Looking at the key phrases in the statement...

do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake.
Pretty self-explanatory to me, you don't overtake on the left.

In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake. 
This is congested conditions, i.e. very slow moving traffic as in traffic jams.  Nowhere here does it say anything about undertaking someone hogging a middle lane.  

OFFENCE
Overtaking on the left is lawful if done in accordance with the above guidance. However, whilst there is no specific offence of overtaking on the left, if a driver undertook another vehicle, other than in the circumstances described above e.g. in the case of someone hogging lane 2 on a motorway, they may be prosecuted for careless driving.
You'd be hard-pushed to convince a court that a middle-lane hogger can be classed the same as congested traffic. 

Click to expand...


I think the underlined bit is the only relevant part. Has anyone ever heard of anyone ever being prosecuted for "undertaking"? Or even driving without due care and attention due to undertaking? Genuine question as i have not.


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 25, 2019)

What do you do if you break down or have a puncture and the refuge area is not in sight or you are in the outer lanes?


----------



## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			What do you do if you break down or have a puncture and the refuge area is not in sight or you are in the outer lanes?
		
Click to expand...

Clench your buttocks tight and hope for the best...


----------



## jim8flog (Oct 25, 2019)

Re lane hogging

I remember a case a few years ago when somebody was prosecuted for causing an obstruction when they drove continuously at 70 MPH in the outside lane.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			What do you do if you break down or have a puncture and the refuge area is not in sight or you are in the outer lanes?
		
Click to expand...

The idea is that, as every yard (maybe not literally but practically) of the motorway is monitored by CCTV 24hrs/day 365days/year - any breakdown or incident is spotted immediately and the overhead gantry displays immediately flash up warning information and tell traffic to slow down and move lanes accordingly.


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Clench your buttocks tight and hope for the best...
		
Click to expand...

But apart from that, in the absence of the hard shoulder and in the presence of heavy lorries, do you get out of your vehicle and have a 50% chance of survival or stay in your vehicle and have maybe a 25% chance.
If you get hit it won't matter much what speed the vehicle behind is doing.
Like golf, you will have to play the percentages.


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The idea is that...
		
Click to expand...

Theory is not always practice. I wouldn't like to put it to the test.
Not so long ago we were told smart motorways were safe. Now some very disturbing incidents have proved otherwise.


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Works fine on the M42.

Perhaps it's just a Southerner problem.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, always impressed when I go up to the midlands and travel on the M42, the trick is to travel at the speed shown on the signs, now there's a novelty.

 Wondered why down south building extra lanes on motorways was just an excuse to have more empty inside lanes.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not for me. A nightmare. The screens constantly change. Some don't even work on the same gantry.
Highways England have admitted that smart motorways are too confusing for drivers.
Accidents all the time and fatalities.
This week there was a 90 minute hold up on the smart section of the M42.
Speed cameras are partly hidden on the side of the gantries.
I've been done for speeding there at 70 mph one evening when the motorway was actually clear.
The technology is unreliable.
		
Click to expand...

I presume you didn't see the speed camera warning signs on the majority of gantrys. 

As for accidents and fatalities,  would you like to share the statistics proving these are  more frequent on "smart" motorways. 

In any event I am surprised that you even use motorways and certainly not at high speeds in view of your "guardian of the environment" status.


----------



## anotherdouble (Oct 25, 2019)

passing a vehicle on the inside is not the same as undertaking


----------



## Robster59 (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think the underlined bit is the only relevant part. Has anyone ever heard of anyone ever being prosecuted for "undertaking"? Or even driving without due care and attention due to undertaking? Genuine question as i have not.
		
Click to expand...

I'd look at the bottom line that says "may be prosecuted for careless driving".  It's an argument you'd have to put in your claim if you did get done for overtaking on the left. 

To be honest, they said they were going to prosecute middle lane hoggers for careless driving and you don't really hear of that any more either.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not for me. A nightmare. The screens constantly change. Some don't even work on the same gantry.
Highways England have admitted that smart motorways are too confusing for drivers.
Accidents all the time and fatalities.
This week there was a 90 minute hold up on the smart section of the M42.
Speed cameras are partly hidden on the side of the gantries.
*I've been done for speeding there at 70 mph one evening when the motorway was actually clear.*
The technology is unreliable.
		
Click to expand...

And so has my Mrs.  And on the SMART motorway awareness course she went on it was explained why, and two reasons she mentioned are that where a motorway is through a built up area and close to housing, speed will be slowed during the night to cut down road and 'engine/exhaust' noise; and also it is often the case they want to keep everyone at a slower speed when there are motorway maintenance workers on the road ahead.  Just get everyone slow nice and early.

TBH - I have driven on many of the SMART M'ways and in general I have no issues. In many ways it's easy for me as I am a diligent adherent to temporary and average speed limits (though I do exceed 70mph on motorways but rarely much over 80)

I also refuse to undertake - even if I am permitted as other posts suggest I might be - as I just don't trust the other driver not to come in without looking...and I suspect that were there a collision I would be held as being at fault.  It bugs - but I just don't.


----------



## USER1999 (Oct 25, 2019)

If the variable limit on the M25 is there to reduce congestion, and allow trafgic to flow, albeit slowly, their algorithm is wrong, and it not only does not work, but is complete rubbish. Anyone who drives round it regularly will know this. If they really wanted this to work, a 30 limit should be applied every day, 05.00 to 23.30, and then dial it down from there.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If the variable limit on the M25 is there to reduce congestion, and allow trafgic to flow, albeit slowly, their algorithm is wrong, and it not only does not work, but is complete rubbish. Anyone who drives round it regularly will know this. If they really wanted this to work, a 30 limit should be applied every day, 05.00 to 23.30, and then dial it down from there.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe that's the answer.

Pretty elementary wave modelling shows how traffic flows work, and the huge immediate and legacy impacts of sudden bunching when fast traffic has to suddenly slow.

In my thinking this is why we get slow traffic in the other direction to a motorway accident.  It's not folk slowing to gawp.  Fast traffic adjacent to and immediately approaching an accident just happened on other side of road slows down very rapidly - shock at what they've just seen and suddenly wanting to take greater care.  And that rapid slowing causes traffic slowing to build and propagate in a wave motion back down the carriageway from that point.  And so we get long queues building up very quickly as fast traffic slowing rapidly hits the back of the queue - for no reason other than the accident the other side of the motorway.

If traffic is gong slower at a steady speed that sudden very rapid slow-down doesn't happen in the same way as traffic slows together - and is less likely to bunch and stop.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 25, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			But apart from that, in the absence of the hard shoulder and in the presence of heavy lorries, do you get out of your vehicle and have a 50% chance of survival or stay in your vehicle and have maybe a 25% chance.
If you get hit it won't matter much what speed the vehicle behind is doing.
Like golf, you will have to play the percentages.
		
Click to expand...

You get out of your vehicle, over the barrier and once youâ€™ve phoned the motorway control from the motorway phone, NOT YOUR MOBILE, get as far away from the carriageway as possible.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Oct 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You get out of your vehicle, over the barrier and once youâ€™ve phoned the motorway control from the motorway phone, NOT YOUR MOBILE, get as far away from the carriageway as possible.
		
Click to expand...

Intrigued about the "motorway phone" . How frequent are they and why not use your own mobile.
I appreciate that if you do use a motorway phone, the location of incident is not likely to be mistaken. But how far apart are they?
You clearly are giving best advice ( your job), I'm just concerned how I and/or my wife would follow it if long distance is involvedðŸ˜Š


----------



## Sats (Oct 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The M20 is being  turned into Smart motorway and its caused havoc for absolutely ages and now the government say it could be the last one as motorists dont know how to use them - you couldn't make it up!
		
Click to expand...

I know! the M20 is a nightmare - just imagine what it'll be like during operation stack!


----------



## chrisd (Oct 25, 2019)

Sats said:



			I know! the M20 is a nightmare - just imagine what it'll be like during operation stack!
		
Click to expand...

Awful, as I can testify. They are starting Operation Brock next week ready for a No Deal Brexit  even though it's not going to happen ðŸ¤”ðŸ¤”


----------



## Imurg (Oct 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Intrigued about the "motorway phone" . How frequent are they and why not use your own mobile.
I appreciate that if you do use a motorway phone, the location of incident is not likely to be mistaken. But how far apart are they?
You clearly are giving best advice ( your job), I'm just concerned how I and/or my wife would follow it if long distance is involvedðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

I believe they're 1km apart - so you're never more than 500m ( a par 5) away from one.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Intrigued about the "motorway phone" . How frequent are they and why not use your own mobile.
I appreciate that if you do use a motorway phone, the location of incident is not likely to be mistaken. But how far apart are they?
You clearly are giving best advice ( your job), I'm just concerned how I and/or my wife would follow it if long distance is involvedðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™ve answered your own question; location. M4 control used to cover the M25/M4 junction. The percentage of calls that came in on motorway phones, the location of which we knew, from callers who would swear blind they were on the opposite carriageway to the one the phone was on, or even the wrong motorway was quite frightening. Itâ€™s a bit of an issue when trying to respond promptly if youâ€™re sent to the wrong motorway. ðŸ˜³

If I remember correctly, it should never be more than half a mile, as the phones were a mile apart and the mile markers, which were every tenth of a mile, had an arrow on them with a logo of a telephone handset indicating the direction to the nearest one. 

Using a mobile and quoting a mile marker would be an alternative if you canâ€™t get to the motorway phone, but as most people arenâ€™t aware of the mile marker system it was always easier to advise people to use the motorway phone. ðŸ‘


----------



## Golfmmad (Oct 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			It not that the motorways are now smart, it's that motorists are still thick when using motorways or any highway that has more than one lane. Going to smart/4 lanes just gives blinkered drivers another lane to hog. The problem is in this country is Starting from left to right, inside lane is slowest going out to the fastest. It just does not work. Undertaking should be legalised.
Trouble is as well in this country, speed limit on motorways. Lorrys do what 56mph Max. Maximum is 70 mph. Really. Ave seen cars averaging 80 mph and the rest. Yet when driving in Oz the speed limit Max is 110 kph. And nearly everyone drives at that speed or close to 100 kph. It is strange seeing the same cars alongside you for miles and miles. Yet it works.
		
Click to expand...

The mindset in Oz is obviously different to here in the UK. Many motorists here just will not adhere to speed limits and are so impatient. And therin lies the problem, getting people to SLOW DOWN!
Take today for instance: Driving on the M23 50mph limit section, its pouring down with rain, visibility very poor due to spray.I'm driving at 50 and the guy behind is almost in my boot, he suddenly shoots inside at breakneck speed to get in front of me. It was madness, especially as he had to slow down again because of volume of traffic. Why cant people just accept the speed limit and cruise through it in a safe way. There's a reason why the limit is in place - narrow lanes and to protect the workforce.
I often hear of people complaining about these type of road works on Motorways when there's been an accident. It's not the fault of there being a speed limit, but that of the careless/impatient motorist.

TRAFFIC NEEDS TO SLOW DOWN!


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2019)

Golfmmad said:



			The mindset in Oz is obviously different to here in the UK. Many motorists here just will not adhere to speed limits and are so impatient. And therin lies the problem, getting people to SLOW DOWN!
Take today for instance: Driving on the M23 50mph limit section, its pouring down with rain, visibility very poor due to spray.I'm driving at 50 and the guy behind is almost in my boot, he suddenly shoots inside at breakneck speed to get in front of me. It was madness, especially as he had to slow down again because of volume of traffic. Why cant people just accept the speed limit and cruise through it in a safe way. There's a reason why the limit is in place - narrow lanes and to protect the workforce.
I often hear of people complaining about these type of road works on Motorways when there's been an accident. It's not the fault of there being a speed limit, but that of the careless/impatient motorist.

TRAFFIC NEEDS TO SLOW DOWN!
		
Click to expand...

The second word in your post sums it up " mindset". ðŸ‘


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 26, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I presume you didn't see the speed camera warning signs on the majority of gantrys.
As for accidents and fatalities,  would you like to share the statistics proving these are  more frequent on "smart" motorways.
		
Click to expand...

The speed camera where I was caught is only partly visible to the side of the motorway gantry. It should be fully visible.
Not all the screens were working on the gantries. I requested proof and they sent me 3 images. The first was too blurred to reveal anything. The second and third were also a bit blurred and the text was illegible, but they did show a car on my inside undertaking me. I simply didn't believe the evidence, but failure to pay the fine could have resulted in court action. 
The technology for all this comes from Australia. 
What is even more confusing is that according to the RAC website a driver doing the speed limit + 10% + 2mph should not be prosecuted, but not all police forces obey this guideline.

Fatalities on motorways are up 8%.
Also read this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/comment/smart-motorways-scandal-time-end-deadly-experiment/




			In any event I am surprised that you even use motorways and certainly not at high speeds in view of your "guardian of the environment" status.
		
Click to expand...

I rarely use motorways these days. Long since given up on using the M6. A have a small stop-start petrol car which has an annual licence of Â£30. I have cut my motoring by 50% and walk or take public transport as much as possible.


----------



## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The speed camera where I was caught is only partly visible to the side of the motorway gantry. It should be fully visible.
Not all the screens were working on the gantries. I requested proof and they sent me 3 images. The first was too blurred to reveal anything. The second and third were also a bit blurred and the text was illegible, but they did show a car on my inside undertaking me. I simply didn't believe the evidence, but failure to pay the fine could have resulted in court action.
The technology for all this comes from Australia.
What is even more confusing is that according to the RAC website a driver doing the speed limit + 10% + 2mph should not be prosecuted, but not all police forces obey this guideline.

Fatalities on motorways are up 8%.
Also read this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/comment/smart-motorways-scandal-time-end-deadly-experiment/


I rarely use motorways these days. Long since given up on using the M6. A have a small stop-start petrol car which has an annual licence of Â£30. I have cut my motoring by 50% and walk or take public transport as much as possible.
		
Click to expand...

Why should they be visible?
So people can burn along and slam on the brakes when they see the cameras?

So not all the screens were working..I assume you were able to see one or another of them as you state they weren't all working...do you assume a different speed limit in different lanes..?
And what the hell does it matter where the technology comes from? It comes from Australia so it must be defective..?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Why should they be visible?
So people can burn along and slam on the brakes when they see the cameras?

So not all the screens were working..I assume you were able to see one or another of them as you state they weren't all working...do you assume a different speed limit in different lanes..?
And what the hell does it matter where the technology comes from? It comes from Australia so it must be defective..?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we could start a â€œJustGivingâ€ Page and pay his fine for him if it wasnâ€™t his fault?

Whoâ€™s in?


----------



## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe we could start a â€œJustGivingâ€ Page and pay his fine for him if it wasnâ€™t his fault?

Whoâ€™s in?
		
Click to expand...

Pass.

On the inside....


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The speed camera where I was caught is only partly visible to the side of the motorway gantry. It should be fully visible.
Not all the screens were working on the gantries. I requested proof and they sent me 3 images. The first was too blurred to reveal anything. The second and third were also a bit blurred and the text was illegible, but they did show a car on my inside undertaking me. I simply didn't believe the evidence, but failure to pay the fine could have resulted in court action.
The technology for all this comes from Australia.
What is even more confusing is that according to the RAC website a driver doing the speed limit + 10% + 2mph should not be prosecuted, but not all police forces obey this guideline.

Fatalities on motorways are up 8%.
Also read this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/comment/smart-motorways-scandal-time-end-deadly-experiment/


I rarely use motorways these days. Long since given up on using the M6. A have a small stop-start petrol car which has an annual licence of Â£30. I have cut my motoring by 50% and walk or take public transport as much as possible.
		
Click to expand...

There are abundant warning signs on the gantrys, the cameras themselves do not have to be visible.

As for the article you quoted as a source it contains no statistical evidence to support a claim that Smart Motorways are any more dangerous than conventional. 

It appears to be little more than a  rant against speeding fines which, after all, can be easily avoided


----------



## CliveW (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			What is even more confusing is that according to the RAC website a driver doing the speed limit + 10% + 2mph should not be prosecuted, but not all police forces obey this guideline.
		
Click to expand...

The 10% + 2mph is, as you say, a guideline and not legislation. It is to allow for any discrepancies in speedometers. It does not mean you can drive over the limit and get away with it. Drive within the limit and you will have nothing to worry about.


----------



## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

CliveW said:



			The 10% + 2mph is, as you say, a guideline and not legislation. It is to allow for any discrepancies in speedometers. It does not mean you can drive over the limit and get away with it. Drive within the limit and you will have nothing to worry about.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly
Some time ago North Wales Police had a zero tolerance on speeding. 1 mph over and you could get done.
Speedometers are not allowed to show under the limit - if you're doing 30 they can't show 29. They can show up to 10% more, meaning that if you go by your speedo you'll always be within the limit.
Not sure the 10%+2 works here. People regularly getting tickets for 33/34 in a 30 and 45 in a 40


----------



## MegaSteve (Oct 26, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Exactly
Some time ago North Wales Police had a zero tolerance on speeding. 1 mph over and you could get done.
Speedometers are not allowed to show under the limit - if you're doing 30 they can't show 29. They can show up to 10% more, meaning that if you go by your speedo you'll always be within the limit.
Not sure the 10%+2 works here. People regularly getting tickets for 33/34 in a 30 and 45 in a 40
		
Click to expand...

Yea... My better half collected a few points for travelling at 32mph... Zip tolerance... She wasn't a happy lady... First and only ever points...


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 26, 2019)

Here are the guidelines.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smart-motorway 
Don't forget your hi-vis jacket (and lucky charm).
But what about that lorry which is just a few feet behind. Will it stop in time if you break down? There is no enforcement for safe stopping distances. This seems to have been the cause of many fatalities.
I think the only answer is to avoid smart motorways if possible and use only dumb ones where you can hog the inside lane knowing that a relatively safe place (the hard shoulder) is adjacent.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			But apart from that, in the absence of the hard shoulder and in the presence of heavy lorries, do you get out of your vehicle and have a 50% chance of survival or stay in your vehicle and have maybe a 25% chance.
If you get hit it won't matter much what speed the vehicle behind is doing.
Like golf, you will have to play the percentages.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s like the stay put advice in a tower block fire.
Itâ€™s easier said than done.
You would need a lot of nerve to sit in your vehicle in a middle lane.

Sometimes the old ways are better than technology.


----------



## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			But what about that lorry which is just a few feet behind. Will it stop in time if you break down? There is no enforcement for safe stopping distances. This seems to have been the cause of many fatalities..
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing to do with smart motorways or even motorways in general - all to do with the attitude of drivers.
And if they're going to sit close behind on a motorway then they're going to be right up your chuff on any road.
Motorways are still the safest roads to drive on.
And another thing...no road is dangerous.
It becomes a dangerous place due to the people who drive on it.


----------



## anotherdouble (Oct 26, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely nothing to do with smart motorways or even motorways in general - all to do with the attitude of drivers.
And if they're going to sit close behind on a motorway then they're going to be right up your chuff on any road.
Motorways are still the safest roads to drive on.
And another thing...no road is dangerous.
It becomes a dangerous place due to the people who drive on it.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t waste your time with him matey. I am sure you along with the majority of the forum have got better things to do with your lifeðŸ‘


----------



## SaintHacker (Oct 26, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely nothing to do with smart motorways or even motorways in general - all to do with the attitude of drivers.
.
		
Click to expand...

IS the correct answer. Smart motorways work absolutely fine if people just obey the rules. If the lane is closed, move over, if there is a limit obey it. 
How many A road dual carriageways have hard shoulders? Yet no one worries about breaking down on them, yet its still a 70mph limit road.
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of a breakdown worker. Would they rather work on a hard shoulder with traffic wizzing by at 70+mph, or in a closed lane with traffic slowed to 40. I know what my choice would be...


----------



## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

anotherdouble said:



			Donâ€™t waste your time with him matey. I am sure you along with the majority of the forum have got better things to do with your lifeðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Not tonight...I'm feeling grumpier than usual


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not for me. A nightmare....
Speed cameras are partly hidden on the side of the gantries.
I've been done for speeding there at 70 mph one evening when the motorway was actually clear.
...
		
Click to expand...

So you are bitter about being (rightly imo) penalised for breaking the law! I've no sympathy for you! Get over it! And 'mend your ways' or the consequences will be worse for you!

I am, however, dubious about the safety of 'smart' motorways procedures, so only content with their 'dynamic' speed limit attribute. The KISS approach is hugely relevant to UK traffic imo! I do believe that 'undertaking' should be legal - up to a point, with erratic (weaving) use prosecuted by an appropriate alternative, such as Dangerous Driving.


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 27, 2019)

I wasn't the only one caught out that day. The images I requested clearly showed the only other vehicle in sight going faster than me.
It could happen to you with a moment's inattention.
As for motorways being safer that is only because help is quicker to arrive than in rural areas, and it's just crunching the numbers.
I am always monitoring the M6 in particular even though I don't go there any more. There are always pile-ups between lorries and cars, like one this morning in Cumbria.
So what causes this? Clues might be found with mobile phone use and sleep deprived drivers. On other roads they are more likely to pull over.

Imurg, Foxholer...judging by the volume of your posts, do you live on this forum?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 27, 2019)

I regularly use the M2/M20/M25, and the Smart motorways are not the issue, its the idiots on the roads....and TBH I very rarely see much stupidity in the Smart sections, although the now normal use of the single digital camera to the side of occaisional gantries has taken the speed of many motorways down to a 70 max now as they are in constant use even if reduced speeds are indicated.
Having driven back down from Northumberland yesterday in the horrendous rain I can honestly say the M25 is no worse than anywhere else. The amount of idiots trying to race past the steady flow of traffic in the heavy rain was astounding, and something so many say only happens "down south" or on the M25. 
It would appear the whole country has the desease of driver stupidy


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 27, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I wasn't the only one caught out that day. The images I requested clearly showed the only other vehicle in sight going faster than me.
It could happen to you with a moment's inattention.
As for motorways being safer that is only because help is quicker to arrive than in rural areas, and it's just crunching the numbers.
I am always monitoring the M6 in particular even though I don't go there any more. There are always pile-ups between lorries and cars, like one this morning in Cumbria.
So what causes this? Clues might be found with mobile phone use and sleep deprived drivers. On other roads they are more likely to pull over.

Imurg, Foxholer...judging by the volume of your posts, do you live on this forum?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you got caught because you weren't paying attention, as well as exceeding the posted limit of the moment. Just think of all the pollution you created. Hypocrisy perhaps?


----------



## anotherdouble (Oct 27, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I regularly use the M2/M20/M25, and the Smart motorways are not the issue, its the idiots on the roads....and TBH I very rarely see much stupidity in the Smart sections, although the now normal use of the single digital camera to the side of occaisional gantries has taken the speed of many motorways down to a 70 max now as they are in constant use even if reduced speeds are indicated.
Having driven back down from Northumberland yesterday in the horrendous rain I can honestly say the M25 is no worse than anywhere else. The amount of idiots trying to race past the steady flow of traffic in the heavy rain was astounding, and something so many say only happens "down south" or on the M25.
*It would appear the whole country has the desease of driver stupidy*

Click to expand...

Especially those who break the speed limit and then moan when they get a ticket because they couldnâ€™t see the cameraðŸ¤£


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I wasn't the only one caught out that day. The images I requested clearly showed the only other vehicle in sight going faster than me.
It could happen to you with a moment's inattention.
		
Click to expand...

how can an image show another vehicle going quicker than you unless it has the speed captured and then they would also have been punished for breaking the law ? 
But then can you actually request images of other vehicles ? I believe you can only request the image of your car - so I expect you are telling porkies 



			As for motorways being safer that is only because help is quicker to arrive than in rural areas, and it's just crunching the numbers.
I am always monitoring the M6 in particular even though I don't go there any more. There are always pile-ups between lorries and cars, like one this morning in Cumbria.
So what causes this? Clues might be found with mobile phone use and sleep deprived drivers. On other roads they are more likely to pull over.

Imurg, Foxholer...judging by the volume of your posts, do you live on this forum?
		
Click to expand...

why are you â€œmonitoringâ€ a motorway ? 

Either way just seems that you are bitter about being caught breaking the law


----------



## Imurg (Oct 27, 2019)

Might have to start monitoring the M11....don't use that one anymore...


----------



## Imurg (Oct 27, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Might have to start monitoring the M11....don't use that one anymore...

Click to expand...

Heavy traffic around Chigwell apparently....think of the pollution....


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Might have to start monitoring the M11....don't use that one anymore...

Click to expand...

You should monitor the I405 in LA, makes our motorways look like country roads, and you get camera feeds.


----------



## CliveW (Oct 27, 2019)

Think yourselves lucky that you have motorways close by!


----------



## MegaSteve (Oct 27, 2019)

Any kit is only as good as it's end user... As the standard of driving rarely rises above parlous I'd suggest that's as good a reason as any to consign 'smart' to history...


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

I use the speed limiter on my car, it takes out the chance of unintentional speeding.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

I4 through Orlando is the scariest road I have driven on .
Thereâ€™s road works itâ€™s shocking.


----------



## shagster (Oct 28, 2019)

smart motorways are anything but, hard shoulder for problems
70mph speed limit is a joke this day and age, mind you getting to that can be a miracle
standard of driving is horrendous, most motorists in my area don't know what indicators are for and think they have right of way regardless of what is coming
as for roundabouts, left hand lane then turn right, daily occurrence when i go to golf
too many selfish drivers out there


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2019)

Golfmmad said:



*The mindset in Oz is obviously different to here in the UK.* Many motorists here just will not adhere to speed limits and are so impatient. And therin lies the problem, getting people to SLOW DOWN!
...
TRAFFIC NEEDS TO SLOW DOWN!
		
Click to expand...

Could in part be the fines.  In Victoria earlier this year I was done for doing 13km/hr over the 40km/hr limit (I didn't spot the speed limit being reduced as the road skirted a coastal village).  I was fined AU$330...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2019)

CliveW said:



			Think yourselves lucky that you have motorways close by! 

Click to expand...

Aye - but A9 being improved north of Perth...

Still...best way to drive the A9 is to take your time and grab the opportunity to enjoy the countryside (whilst of course paying attention).   So driving down from Inverness a few weeks ago we gave ourselves loads of time.  Pity it hammered down and the views were - erm - rather limited...


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			how can an image show another vehicle going quicker than you unless it has the speed captured and then they would also have been punished for breaking the law ?
But then can you actually request images of other vehicles ? I believe you can only request the image of your car - so I expect you are telling porkies
		
Click to expand...

Answered this already. The 2nd and 3rd images they provided clearly showed a vehicle going faster than me.




			why are you â€œmonitoringâ€ a motorway ?
		
Click to expand...

I want to know what roads to avoid. In my experience the M6 is the worst. It could get better one day but right now I don't want to go there.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 1, 2019)

Total chaos on the smart sections around Birmingham today.
M6 closed northbound. 
The 4 miles between the airport and Solihull on the M42 once again in big trouble with travel time up to 1 hour 10 minutes.
Simple answer: These 'smart' motorways cause motorists to be confused. 4 lanes with no hard shoulder and screens constantly varying.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			...
Simple answer: These 'smart' motorways cause motorists to be confused. 4 lanes with no hard shoulder and screens constantly varying.
		
Click to expand...

Not quite...More like 'Some motorists are confused by SMs.' But they DO slow traffic down - or penalise those that don't! Whether they work do, or ever will, work to everyone's satisfaction, especially those likely to want to travel 'too fast', is probably unlikely!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You should monitor the I405 in LA, makes our motorways look like country roads, and you get camera feeds.

Click to expand...

Just come back from LA yesterday and indeed I drove all the way down the I405 through LA on the way to San Diego, then went back up to LA and was driving around and through it for a few days.  Absolutely terrifying to be honest, it's like Death Race 2000 as cars, bikes, scooters just appear from anywhere, undertaking, overtaking, lanes on freeways suddenly appear then disappear, one minute you are in the 2nd inside lane then 100 yards further you are in the same lane but it is now the 2nd outside lane of 8 lanes and you need to get across 6 lanes of solid traffic for the next exit.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just come back from LA yesterday and indeed I drove all the way down the I405 through LA on the way to San Diego, then went back up to LA and was driving around and through it for a few days.  Absolutely terrifying to be honest, it's like Death Race 2000 as cars, bikes, scooters just appear from anywhere, undertaking, overtaking, lanes on freeways suddenly appear then disappear, one minute you are in the 2nd inside lane then 100 yards further you are in the same lane but it is now the 2nd outside lane of 8 lanes and you need to get across 6 lanes of solid traffic for the next exit.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like I4 in Orlando ,scariest I have ever driven on.
Plus they are all on the phone as itâ€™s not illegal there yet!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just come back from LA yesterday and indeed I drove all the way down the I405 through LA on the way to San Diego, then went back up to LA and was driving around and through it for a few days.  Absolutely terrifying to be honest, it's like Death Race 2000 as cars, bikes, scooters just appear from anywhere, undertaking, overtaking, lanes on freeways suddenly appear then disappear, one minute you are in the 2nd inside lane then 100 yards further you are in the same lane but it is now the 2nd outside lane of 8 lanes and you need to get across 6 lanes of solid traffic for the next exit.
		
Click to expand...

Stop it, youâ€™ll give stefanovic nightmares.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds like I4 in Orlando ,scariest I have ever driven on.
Plus they are all on the phone as itâ€™s not illegal there yet!
		
Click to expand...

I'm slightly surprised by that. I've been twice to Florida and used the I4 daily on both occasions. The first, during Easter, it was an absolute doddle. Last time it was August, a stupid time to go, and it was definitely a bit more tense to drive on but still better than the M6 at rush hour or many other UK motorways at certain hotspots. I liked the undertaking aspect, it was less stressful. I think the slip roads to join are way too short but other than that I was not freaked. 

What was it that you didn't like about it? (incidentally, I am not a macho driver, I am used to an easy life driving up here in the NE. Driving my son into Liverpool stresses me out, it's an awful place for cars)


----------



## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Total chaos on the smart sections around Birmingham today.
M6 closed northbound.
The 4 miles between the airport and Solihull on the M42 once again in big trouble with travel time up to 1 hour 10 minutes.
Simple answer: These 'smart' motorways cause motorists to be confused. 4 lanes with no hard shoulder and screens constantly varying.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously, because I've never seen traffic delays on any type of road except a Smart Motorway.!!!!!! What a completely and utterly useless piece of information to try and prove your point 

If it was possible, I'd double your fine for not only breaking the law, but failing to learn your lesson. A murderer doesn't get let off because someone else standing beside him did 2 murders


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Dont see the problem with them, you drive along and if it tells you a new maximum speed you just drive slower than that.  What does amuse me is seeing drivers on these average speed limits who belt along over the max then slow down when passing the cameras.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just come back from LA yesterday and indeed I drove all the way down the I405 through LA on the way to San Diego, then went back up to LA and was driving around and through it for a few days.  Absolutely terrifying to be honest, it's like Death Race 2000 as cars, bikes, scooters just appear from anywhere, undertaking, overtaking, lanes on freeways suddenly appear then disappear, one minute you are in the 2nd inside lane then 100 yards further you are in the same lane but it is now the 2nd outside lane of 8 lanes and you need to get across 6 lanes of solid traffic for the next exit.
		
Click to expand...

Not unlike where the M42 meets the end of the M40 or where the M6 suddenly appears on your left when driving along the M42 north, or the Lichfield / Kingsbury turn off a liitle later and a traffic island from hell.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not unlike where the M42 meets the end of the M40 or where the M6 suddenly appears on your left when driving along the M42 north, or the Lichfield / Kingsbury turn off a liitle later and a traffic island from hell.
		
Click to expand...

Trust me, I've driven the motorways around Birmingham many times as my office is based there, and even allowing for familiarity, the junctions you mention are nowhere near as challenging as driving in LA. The level of traffic and concentration needed is on a different scale.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 1, 2019)

Doesn't look as bad as the M6 to me.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm slightly surprised by that. I've been twice to Florida and used the I4 daily on both occasions. The first, during Easter, it was an absolute doddle. Last time it was August, a stupid time to go, and it was definitely a bit more tense to drive on but still better than the M6 at rush hour or many other UK motorways at certain hotspots. I liked the undertaking aspect, it was less stressful. I think the slip roads to join are way too short but other than that I was not freaked.

What was it that you didn't like about it? (incidentally, I am not a macho driver, I am used to an easy life driving up here in the NE. Driving my son into Liverpool stresses me out, it's an awful place for cars)
		
Click to expand...

Last there in April.
Most is ok I just tootle along .
But in the main city just short of the Amway Centre / financial Centre it went from four lanes to two ?
There is even a junction you come off in the outside lane there.
No road signs to warn you it was chaos ,
They have been doing this stretch for about three years ,every time we go it looks no different.

We stay away from it if possible and use the toll roads.


----------



## CliveW (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Doesn't look as bad as the M6 to me.







Click to expand...

Even worse in China!!!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not unlike where the M42 meets the end of the M40 or where the M6 suddenly appears on your left when driving along the M42 north, or the Lichfield / Kingsbury turn off a liitle later and a traffic island from hell.
		
Click to expand...

Neither of those junctions are particularly bad other than the  odd occasion when there has been a shunt or a vehicle breakdown. 

You sound like my wife when she sees any queue or slow moving traffic and she states that the traffic is horrendous. 

It very rarely is.


----------



## Dando (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Answered this already. The 2nd and 3rd images they provided clearly showed a vehicle going faster than me.



I want to know what roads to avoid. In my experience the M6 is the worst. It could get better one day but right now I don't want to go there.
		
Click to expand...

How does a photo clearly show another car going faster than you?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			How does a photo clearly show another car going faster than you?
		
Click to expand...

They are blurred


----------



## Dando (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont see the problem with them, you drive along and if it tells you a new maximum speed you just drive slower than that.  What does amuse me is seeing drivers on these average speed limits who belt along over the max then slow down when passing the cameras.
		
Click to expand...

I see this a lot on the A2 just past Bexley- 70Mph or so until the camera then emergency stop and crawl through


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			How does a photo clearly show another car going faster than you?
		
Click to expand...

That was my first thought as well. I assume that he means that the relative positions of the two cars in the three photos show the other car is moving faster.

None of which takes away from the fact that he was speeding and was correctly prosecuted for it.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			I see this a lot on the A2 just past Bexley- 70Mph or so until the camera then emergency stop and crawl through
		
Click to expand...

And that's a cause of crashes in itself.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Nov 1, 2019)

CliveW said:



			Even worse in China!!!






Click to expand...

I think that proves putting more lanes on motorways dosnt work for long.
Or does it.?


----------



## Golfmmad (Nov 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			And that's a cause of crashes in itself.
		
Click to expand...

It really amazes me how motorists just dont want to slow down - even in poor conditions!
The limits are put there for good reason - congestion - safety - poor visibility - breakdowns and accidents.

Highways England and the Government put all these safety measures in place and still they get ignored by the impatience of many drivers


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			I see this a lot on the A2 just past Bexley- 70Mph or so until the camera then emergency stop and crawl through
		
Click to expand...

TBH, all I see every day is people in the outside lane at 48 mph even when the inside/middle lane is clear.
God I hate that average speed section, but fortunately I dont go all the way through the tunnel.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That was my first thought as well. I assume that he means that the relative positions of the two cars in the three photos show the other car is moving faster.
		
Click to expand...

CORRECT! I will award you the Order of St Frances (of Rome), the patron saint of car drivers.




			None of which takes away from the fact that he was speeding and was correctly prosecuted for it.
		
Click to expand...

Now none of you are speeders. None of you have ever exceeded the speed limit either intentionally or unintentionally. You are without sin. For that I will award you all the newly created Order of Stefanovic.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 2, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			...For that I will award you all the newly created Order of Stefanovic.
		
Click to expand...

You mean this....? Which you seem to have/spout in abundance!

Perhaps they/we aren't so daft that they/we get caught, then moan about the circumstances!

Who do you blame when you make a screw-up playing Golf? To (mis)quote Jimmy Buffet...'It's your own damn fault!'!

Btw. I have little doubt the other driver was prosecuted as well - provided they also broke the law!


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You mean this....? Which you seem to have/spout in abundance!
		
Click to expand...

At getting on for 19000 posts you appear to live on this forum. 
May I suggest some fresh air.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 2, 2019)

In other news - emergency bridge repairs severely slowing traffic around Stansted..
#M11News...

It's good fun this - should have done it years ago...


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 2, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			At getting on for 19000 posts you appear to live on this forum.
May I suggest some fresh air.
		
Click to expand...

I get plenty/enough of that to/from/on the golf course!
On the other hand, perhaps you should try for some in your replies! That, stupid, response was pretty similar to a/the previous one!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

Imurg said:



			In other news - emergency bridge repairs severely slowing traffic around Stansted..
#M11News...

It's good fun this - should have done it years ago...
		
Click to expand...

Will it be finished in the next 4 years, I may need to use that stretch.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Will it be finished in the next 4 years, I may need to use that stretch.

Click to expand...

On it Boss


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			I see this a lot on the A2 just past Bexley- 70Mph or so until the camera then emergency stop and crawl through
		
Click to expand...

Cruise control is a marvellous thing. When entering an average speed section of road I just set it and sit.


----------



## pauljames87 (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cruise control is a marvellous thing. When entering an average speed section of road I just set it and sit.
		
Click to expand...

Until I get a car with adaptive cruise control I prefer the speed limiter , only because I set to the limit and then slow down , speed up.. repeat until end of limit


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 4, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Now none of you are speeders. None of you have ever exceeded the speed limit either intentionally or unintentionally. You are without sin. For that I will award you all the newly created Order of Stefanovic.
		
Click to expand...

I've been done for speeding in the past, and no....I don't keep to the limits all the time.
However if I get caught it's no-ones else fault other than my own. Own your error, and stop bleating or blaming anything else. You screwed up, accept it.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 4, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I've been done for speeding in the past, and no....*I don't keep to the limits all the time*.
		
Click to expand...

Then you should be ashamed if you deliberately exceed the speed limit, which I have never done (very nearly true).
There is an element of bad luck if you are actually caught, because every motorist does exceed the limit at some time.
Why do they allow vehicles on the road which can go at 200 mph and above? That is crazy. Recently I heard a someone say he'd been a passenger in a car doing 125 mph on the M5.

As for today, guess where the M6 had a delay of 70 minutes at 8 am because of an accident?
Vehicles shunt in the smart section when the speed limit on the screens start to vary. There is no hard shoulder to pull over, only a refuge area every mile.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 4, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Then you should be ashamed if you deliberately exceed the speed limit, which I have never done (very nearly true).
		
Click to expand...

I'm not ashamed at all. I use my judgement of the road conditions and situation to know whether that little bit over the limit is safe or not, or whether the limit is too much for the conditions.

You just cannot accept you were speeding and your holier than thou  attitude doesn't work.
Own your mistake, and stop trying to find excuses.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 4, 2019)

If you could wait for a few years then the autonomous vehicles will help enormously, as they will remove the need for drivers to understand the obviously very difficult concept of a smart motorway or for old people to understand mini roundabouts . We can then all waft along at the speed limit happy in the knowledge that we are not renegade law breakers.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 4, 2019)

stefanovic said:



*Then you should be ashamed if you deliberately exceed the speed limit,* which I have never done (very nearly true).
There is an element of bad luck if you are actually caught, because every motorist does exceed the limit at some time.
Why do they allow vehicles on the road which can go at 200 mph and above? That is crazy. Recently I heard a someone say he'd been a passenger in a car doing 125 mph on the M5.

As for today, guess where the M6 had a delay of 70 minutes at 8 am because of an accident?
Vehicles shunt in the smart section when the speed limit on the screens start to vary. There is no hard shoulder to pull over, only a refuge area every mile.
		
Click to expand...

Forgive me father as I have sinned.  I did 75 on a motorway the other day as the conditions were clear.  I also did 54 for about 10 seconds in some 50 mph roadworks as a 38 tonner was right up my chuff.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Until I get a car with adaptive cruise control I prefer the speed limiter , only because I set to the limit and then slow down , speed up.. repeat until end of limit
		
Click to expand...

Yup - use that when road is busy - more likely to use CC when road is quiet but I just have to keep to the average speed.  And watch others whizz past me or get irritated with me when they are stuck behind me when I'm in the inside lane (I'm not that 'bloody-minded' to sit doing the average speed in the middle or outside lane)


----------



## Dando (Nov 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forgive me father as I have sinned.  I did 75 on a motorway the other day as the conditions were clear.  I also did 54 for about 10 seconds in some 50 mph roadworks as a 38 tonner was right up my chuff.
		
Click to expand...

you're going straight to hell and will suffer an eternity of hot pokers up your backside


----------



## Dando (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cruise control is a marvellous thing. When entering an average speed section of road I just set it and sit.
		
Click to expand...

same for me.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			and will suffer an eternity of hot pokers up your backside
		
Click to expand...

Very insensitive James given my hospital visit on Friday ðŸ˜£


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			you're going straight to hell and will suffer an eternity of hot pokers up your backside
		
Click to expand...

that ain't necessarily so...


----------



## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			you're going straight to hell and will suffer an eternity of hot pokers up your backside
		
Click to expand...

Will he be going to hell at 75 mph?


----------



## drdel (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Will he be going to hell at 75 mph?
		
Click to expand...

No he'll just be chuffing along.


----------



## USER1999 (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Will he be going to hell at 75 mph?
		
Click to expand...

Only if he is towing a caravan.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 4, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm not ashamed at all. I use my judgement of the road conditions and situation to know whether that little bit over the limit is safe or not, or whether the limit is too much for the conditions.
		
Click to expand...

Then you are clearly above the law. You might not always get away with it.
However, see here:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/revealed-the-true-tolerance-of-speed-cameras/

This highlights the inconsistencies. Some police forces are more generous than others.
You will be unlucky to get caught doing 35mph in a 30.
I was recently talking to a woman who had been on 2 speed awareness courses in the space of 3 years. Both times she was doing 35mph in a 30. 
Most forces allow you to do the speed limit + 10% + 2mph. But not all. So she was very unlucky.
Also heard about a guy who spent Â£30,000 trying to undo his conviction. He failed.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 4, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I was recently talking to a woman who had been on 2 speed awareness courses in the space of 3 years. /QUOTE]
She obviously wasn't paying attention...to either the course or the speed limit....
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 4, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Then you are clearly above the law. You might not always get away with it.
However, see here:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/revealed-the-true-tolerance-of-speed-cameras/

This highlights the inconsistencies. Some police forces are more generous than others.
You will be unlucky to get caught doing 35mph in a 30.
I was recently talking to a woman who had been on 2 speed awareness courses in the space of 3 years. Both times she was doing 35mph in a 30.
Most forces allow you to do the speed limit + 10% + 2mph. But not all. So she was very unlucky.
Also heard about a guy who spent Â£30,000 trying to undo his conviction. He failed.
		
Click to expand...

No, I dont consider myself above the law, and I fully accept I might not always get away with it. But then I don't moan when I am caught (once in 34 years).


----------



## Tashyboy (Nov 4, 2019)

Going to City on Saturday the M1 was the worst I have ever seen it for rain and the rd holding water. Anyway there were 4 cars in the 3rd lane doing 50mph. 2nd lane empty 4th waterlogged. Tashy plods up the 2nd lane doing 55mph * undertaking). Eventually got level with the 1st car who is miles behind the cars in the distance. I looked across and down as am in missis Ts 4x4 and the woman driver is looking down whilst she is txting in conditions.ike that. I couldnt believe it.


----------



## Dando (Nov 4, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Very insensitive James given my hospital visit on Friday ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

Not my fault your doctor had fingers like King Kong ðŸ˜³


----------



## Leftie (Nov 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Going to City on Saturday the M1 was the worst I have ever seen it for rain and the rd holding water. Anyway there were 4 cars in the 3rd lane doing 50mph. 2nd lane empty 4th waterlogged. Tashy plods up the 2nd lane doing 55mph * undertaking). Eventually got level with the 1st car who is miles behind the cars in the distance. I looked across and down as am in missis Ts 4x4 and the woman driver is looking down whilst she is txting in conditions.ike that. I couldnt believe it.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should have got your phone out and videoed her ......


----------



## williamalex1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm not ashamed at all. I use my judgement of the road conditions and situation to know whether that little bit over the limit is safe or not, or whether the limit is too much for the conditions.

You just cannot accept you were speeding and your holier than thou  attitude doesn't work.
Own your mistake, and stop trying to find excuses.
		
Click to expand...

St Efanovic , has a nice ring to it don't you think


----------



## williamalex1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Not my fault your doctor had fingers like King Kong ðŸ˜³
		
Click to expand...

Sure it was a just his finger lol.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 5, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Maybe you should have got your phone out and videoed her ......  

Click to expand...

And , currently, not illegal......shows how good our lawmakers are that they can ban use as a phone but not as a camera or video recorder.....


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 5, 2019)

Imurg said:



			And , currently, not illegal......shows how good our lawmakers are that they can ban use as a phone but not as a camera or video recorder.....

Click to expand...

I thought that loophole had been plugged now. Scrolling through the screen, videoing, taking pics now illegal just like holding a mobile and using it when driving.
They were talking about in the radio last week, thatâ€™s why I thought the loophole had been closed.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 5, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I thought that loophole had been plugged now. Scrolling through the screen, videoing, taking pics now illegal just like holding a mobile and using it when driving.
They were talking about in the radio last week, thatâ€™s why I thought the loophole had been closed.
		
Click to expand...

Being closed? Not sure they've done it yet but it's on the cards if they haven't.


----------



## Scoobiesnax (Nov 5, 2019)

Imurg, I make you right - I read something lately saying they are looking to close the loopholes mentioned.


----------



## chrisd (Nov 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Not my fault your doctor had fingers like King Kong ðŸ˜³
		
Click to expand...

She didn't ðŸ˜‰


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Going to City on Saturday the M1 was the worst I have ever seen it for rain and the rd holding water. Anyway there were 4 cars in the 3rd lane doing 50mph. 2nd lane empty 4th waterlogged. Tashy plods up the 2nd lane doing 55mph * undertaking). Eventually got level with the 1st car who is miles behind the cars in the distance. I looked across and down as am in missis Ts 4x4 and the woman driver is looking down whilst she is txting in conditions.ike that. I couldnt believe it.
		
Click to expand...

I drove down M1 from Sheffield early Saturday afternoon.  The rain and driving conditions between midday and 2pm were dreadful - but there were cars with no lights on, sitting in middle lane(s) crawling along as you describe etc.  It was awful.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 5, 2019)

On M6 today.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/05/huge...-near-coventry-causing-major-delays-11042242/


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 5, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			On M6 today.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/05/huge-lorry-fire-closes-m6-motorwayqq-near-coventry-causing-major-delays-11042242/

Click to expand...

The stretch of motorway in question  is  not a smart motorway.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The stretch of motorway in question  is  not a smart motorway.
		
Click to expand...

And even if it was, how can a lorry catching fire be anything to do with whether it's a smart motorway or not?

(Aimed at the original poster rather than your post but works better as a reply to yours).


----------



## Dando (Nov 5, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And even if it was, how can a lorry catching fire be anything to do with whether it's a smart motorway or not?

(Aimed at the original poster rather than your post but works better as a reply to yours).
		
Click to expand...

imagine the kerfuffle if a caravan or motorhome had caught fire


----------



## Imurg (Nov 5, 2019)

M11 is moving well....chuffed to bits


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			imagine the kerfuffle if a caravan or motorhome had caught fire
		
Click to expand...

In refuge area, so assume not a dumb section.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/watch-fire-rip-through-motorhome-16952844


----------



## USER1999 (Nov 5, 2019)

M25 earlier had the random number generator going. 70, 40, 60, on consecutive gantries. From the 70 one, you could see the 40, and the 60, so very close together, and the traffic, for once was flowing. On that bit anyway.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			imagine the kerfuffle if a caravan or motorhome had caught fire
		
Click to expand...

Until today I wasn't aware that smart motorways had flame throwers installed at random locations that could cause vehicles to burst into flames. ðŸ˜€


----------



## Golfmmad (Nov 5, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Then you are clearly above the law. You might not always get away with it.
However, see here:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/revealed-the-true-tolerance-of-speed-cameras/

This highlights the inconsistencies. Some police forces are more generous than others.
You will be unlucky to get caught doing 35mph in a 30.
I was recently talking to a woman who had been on 2 speed awareness courses in the space of 3 years. Both times she was doing 35mph in a 30.
Most forces allow you to do the speed limit + 10% + 2mph. But not all. So she was very unlucky.
Also heard about a guy who spent Â£30,000 trying to undo his conviction. He failed.
		
Click to expand...


I recently attended a speed awareness course.

At the end we were all asked what we had most taken from the course.
Everybody said the speed demonstration of the difference at driving at 30mph compared to 31mph.

This was done on a test track, with an advanced driver in a family estate car,good tyres and a dry road in clear conditions.
Cardboard boxes were placed at a point on the track. At 30mph, emergency stop saw the car stop about a foot from the boxes. At 31mph, emergency stop saw the car smash through the boxes and was still travelling at 8mph at impact!

The guys taking the course said that for this reason the Police will be tightening up the tolerances in the near future.

With this in mind I wouldn't say, unlucky to be caught doing 35mph, rather, serves you right and accept the consequencies.


----------



## Imurg (Nov 5, 2019)

Some know the 20:80 rule.
If you're driving and you hit someone at 30mph then 80,% of the time they will survive.
If you hit someone at 40mph then 80% of the time they will die.
The knife edge, 50:50 live or die speed is 36mph. Hit someone at 36 and you are quite literally, tossing a coin with their life.

Just something to think about...


----------



## Norrin Radd (Nov 5, 2019)

Slightly off topic but motorway connected ,I had to do the speed awareness course and was surprised to learn that vans ,ie transit size and larger (other vans are available) the maximum speed limit for them is not the same as for a car it is 60mph.how many transits and sprinters go by doing well over 70 let alone 60.
And how many of them have stickers on the back saying 70 is their  max allowable .


----------



## CliveW (Nov 5, 2019)

Speed limit for goods vehicles under 7.5 tonnes ie Tranny vans etc is 70 mph on motorways and 60 mph on dual carriageway.


----------



## Norrin Radd (Nov 5, 2019)

CliveW said:



			Speed limit for goods vehicles under 7.5 tonnes ie Tranny vans etc is 70 mph on motorways and 60 mph on dual carriageway.
		
Click to expand...

Not what I was told ,a minibus of the same is 70but the van is 60.why would they tell me different


----------



## CliveW (Nov 5, 2019)

Probably because they are retired police officers and don't know.  

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits


----------



## Norrin Radd (Nov 5, 2019)

CliveW said:



			Probably because they are retired police officers and don't know.  

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Click to expand...

Good point


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			Not what I was told ,a minibus of the same is 70but the van is 60.why would they tell me different
		
Click to expand...

You are correct, its only vans that are the same size as similar car that can do 70 on a motorway, proper vans can only do 60 mph.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 5, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			Not what I was told ,a minibus of the same is 70but the van is 60.why would they tell me different
		
Click to expand...

A van with factory windows behind the driver can do 70 on a dual carriageway, whereas a van without any other windows other than the front doors can only do 60.
Of more importance, is that a van like that caught speeding gets the same penalty code as a HGV and not  your normal car speeding code so the penalty code is HGV speeding. This can make a big difference to your insurance renewals, as it did mine by Â£80 a year for 5 years.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



*A van with factory windows behind the driver can do 70 on a dual carriageway, whereas a van without any other windows other than the front doors can only do 60.*
Of more importance, is that a van like that caught speeding gets the same penalty code as a HGV and not  your normal car speeding code so the penalty code is HGV speeding. This can make a big difference to your insurance renewals, as it did mine by Â£80 a year for 5 years.
		
Click to expand...

Where in the Government speed restriction document does it say this?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Where in the Government speed restriction document does it say this?
		
Click to expand...

It comes under dual purpose vehicles I belive.


----------



## Tashyboy (Nov 5, 2019)

letter came through today with my name on it, speeding. me tyrets kicked in for about 5 seconds anyway. its missis Ts.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It comes under dual purpose vehicles I belive.
		
Click to expand...

Dual purpose vehicles are utility truck types. 4 wheel drive, passenger seats behind driver, load area at back and long wheel base.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			passenger seats behind driver
		
Click to expand...

Which means windows behind the driver


----------



## JohnnyDee (Nov 6, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Do your limits go 40, 60, 30, 50, 30, 60, 40? On consecutive gantries, when there is zero traffic, and then flicker from 70 to 60 when you haven't moved for 20 minutes?
		
Click to expand...

Late to the party on this so haven't read all posts but this one is spot on.

I used to drive over 40,000 miles a year with my job and this nonsense was getting worse (M25 & M42, M20). In the end I had to spend a disproportionate amount of time watching my speedo and not the surrounding traffic flow - and before someone suggests 'boy racer'  I have always stuck to speed limits, so much so, that I am fed up with people following behind me looking less than happy giving me the evil eye and the finger. Obviously they have a special dispensation to flout the law and are allowed to go as fast as they fancy irrespective of any given speed limit, however I prefer not to lose my licence.

So-called 'smartening' is now in progress on the M4 between Reading & Heathrow and all it is doing is causing pandemonium on a section of road that is already chronically overused. The end result will be a more dangerous road to drive. Still, think of all those nice big juicy fines they'll be able to collect as, after all, it's all about safety of course


----------



## Blue in Munich (Nov 6, 2019)

Golfmmad said:



			I recently attended a speed awareness course.

At the end we were all asked what we had most taken from the course.
Everybody said the speed demonstration of the difference at driving at 30mph compared to 31mph.

This was done on a test track, with an advanced driver in a family estate car,good tyres and a dry road in clear conditions.
Cardboard boxes were placed at a point on the track. *At 30mph, emergency stop saw the car stop about a foot from the boxes. At 31mph, emergency stop saw the car smash through the boxes and was still travelling at 8mph at impact!*

The guys taking the course said that for this reason the Police will be tightening up the tolerances in the near future.

With this in mind I wouldn't say, unlucky to be caught doing 35mph, rather, serves you right and accept the consequencies.
		
Click to expand...

Did they talk about reaction times in relation to this, or merely the stopping distance?


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Which means windows behind the driver
		
Click to expand...

No!  It means all those conditions are met not just the windows, windows in the back of a van still make it a van.   Generally the rule is 'If it looks like a van it probably is a van'


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dual purpose vehicles are utility truck types. 4 wheel drive, passenger seats behind driver, load area at back and long wheel base.
		
Click to expand...




Bunkermagnet said:



			Which means windows behind the driver
		
Click to expand...

Neither of you are fully correct!
From Gov.UK
*Dual purpose vehicles*
A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen, and is either:


constructed or adapted so that the driving power of the engine is, or can be selected to be, transmitted to all wheels of the vehicle
or


permanently fitted with a rigid roof, at least one row of transverse passenger seats to the rear of the driverâ€™s seat and will have side and rear windows - there must also be a minimum ratio between the size of passenger and stowage areas
See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (Part 1 Regulation 3) for the full definition.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Neither of you are fully correct!
From Gov.UK
*Dual purpose vehicles*
A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen, and is either:


constructed or adapted so that the driving power of the engine is, or can be selected to be, transmitted to all wheels of the vehicle
or


permanently fitted with a rigid roof, at least one row of transverse passenger seats to the rear of the driverâ€™s seat and will have side and rear windows - there must also be a minimum ratio between the size of passenger and stowage areas
See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (Part 1 Regulation 3) for the full definition.
		
Click to expand...

A van with factory fitted windows behind the driver will or should have seats behind the driver and passenger as well, therefore it does qualify as a dual purpose vehicle. 
The vehicle has to be factory built that way, and so the V5 will give it a different description to that of a van.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A van with factory fitted windows behind the driver will or *should have *seats behind the driver and passenger as well, therefore it does qualify as a dual purpose vehicle....
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps - or perhaps not. I neither know, nor care! The definition/description I quoted is all that matters - and that states 'has', not 'should have'!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Nov 7, 2019)

Big plus from an old git used to country lanes and who seldom makes use of motorways far less smart motorways.
I find them very good for better traffic flow.

More traffic flow problems are caused by third lane hoggers south of Preston they should crack down on the culprits,


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Golfmmad said:



			I recently attended a speed awareness course.

At the end we were all asked what we had most taken from the course.
Everybody said the speed demonstration of the difference at driving at 30mph compared to 31mph.

This was done on a test track, with an advanced driver in a family estate car,good tyres and a dry road in clear conditions.
Cardboard boxes were placed at a point on the track. At 30mph, emergency stop saw the car stop about a foot from the boxes. At 31mph, emergency stop saw the car smash through the boxes and was still travelling at 8mph at impact!

The guys taking the course said that for this reason the Police will be tightening up the tolerances in the near future.

With this in mind I wouldn't say, unlucky to be caught doing 35mph, rather, serves you right and accept the consequencies.
		
Click to expand...

I do not doubt for a second the validity of the example as the boxes were obviously put in an place somewhere between the terminal stopping distance of that driver at 30 and 31 mph. And indeed speed is one of the more easily controllable factors to cut down on stopping distances.

But for example through my work I know very precisely how much moisture on the road in various states (damp, wet, ice, snow, frost, slush) impacts the friction between the car tyre and the road surface and therefore stopping distances. We work with a lot of car manufacturers to supply them with this information so they can feed this into the algorithms that will be used by autonomous vehicles to control their speed (there is a reason currently the vast majority of autonomous vehicle trials are done in dry often sunny conditions).  Even now some countries have permanent variable speed limits depending on the weather (for example 70 mph in the dry and 60 in the wet) which is a good idea. You then add in the underlying and variable skid resistance of a road if it is dry.  Also the quality/amount of tread on tyre.  And also the reaction times of the driver who often is the biggest factor.

I can pretty much guarantee that with road conditions and tyres being equal,  I can stop quicker at 31 mph than my father can at 30 mph.  And no doubt my 18 year old nephew can stop even quicker at 30 mph than I can. I do not mind a focus on speed as as I said, it is relatively easily to measure, although I have my doubts that it can be uniformly measured in 1 mph increments, and the speedo of your car and speed camera will read exactly the same, especially if you have an analogue speedo. It can also be easily changed by the driver.  But getting obsessed to the point where 32 mph is an offence but 30 mph is fine is kind of glossing over and simplifying the safety aspect of driving a lot, even to the point of giving out a false impression of how safe that vehicle at that point in time really is. 30 mph in some conditions/vehicles can be a lot more dangerous than 35 mph in others on the same road. 

Eventually autonomous vehicles will get around this as they will automatically adjust their speeds on many factors, not just the fixed permanent speed limit in place that may or may not be completely inappropriate for that portion of road and that vehicle and the current weather and the current amount of traffic near by and the current amount of pedestrian activity near by etc etc etc. Indeed there is one school of thought that says fixed speed limits may eventually disappear.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Nov 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps - or perhaps not. I neither know, nor care! The definition/description I quoted is all that matters - and that states 'has', not 'should have'!
		
Click to expand...

When I say â€œshould haveâ€ it is meant in that the option of crew seats behind the driver includes the windows, and is a factory fit option. If the seats are not there, itâ€™s because someone has removed them after wards. 
TBH I donâ€™t really see why  van is any different speed limit wise to the same vehicle but has crew seats and windows. The brakes and suspension are the same. You donâ€™t have different limits for saloons over estate cars so the weight arguement isnâ€™t really an issue I feel.


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 7, 2019)

I've been told that the people who run the speed awareness courses get paid big amounts.
The government received revenue from over 2 million speeding fines in 2016. Latest figures are likely to be much higher.
The courts will love you to appear for not paying a fine. Keeps them in business, too.




			"Eventually autonomous vehicles will get around this as they will automatically adjust their speeds on many factors, not just the fixed permanent speed limit in place. Indeed there is one school of thought that says fixed speed limits may eventually disappear."
		
Click to expand...

That's science fiction.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I've been told that the people who run the speed awareness courses get paid big amounts.
The government received revenue from over 2 million speeding fines in 2016. Latest figures are likely to be much higher.
The courts will love you to appear for not paying a fine. Keeps them in business, too.


That's science fiction.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't that long ago when they said man would never fly


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 7, 2019)

bobmac said:



			It wasn't that long ago when they said man would never fly
		
Click to expand...

How long ago? 18th Century.

Here's one way you can get away with speeding on the M42.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...foreign-drivers-offences-committed-roads.html

Become a foreigner!


----------



## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			How long ago? 18th Century.

!
		
Click to expand...

A bit more recent ......1903 was the first manned controlled flight.
And if you think the autonomous car is science fiction, it will soon be science fact.
This video was filmed Mar 2017.........


----------



## stefanovic (Nov 7, 2019)

I'd prefer one of those big lorries tailgating me than some guy saying 'Look no hands'.

They laughed at the Montgolfier Bothers in the 18th Century.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			I think I'd prefer one of those big lorries tailgating me than some guy saying 'Look no hands'.
		
Click to expand...

You replied to my post after 4 minutes.
The video was 11 minutes long.
Didn't watch too much of it then?


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2019)

bobmac said:



			You replied to my post after 4 minutes.
The video was 11 minutes long.
Didn't watch too much of it then?
		
Click to expand...

I trust you realise YOU set it to start at 3:19, so not all down to him!


----------



## Dan2501 (Nov 7, 2019)

The Tesla Model S and Model X also both have "autopilot" right now. 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/autopilot

Far from science fiction. Few more years and these features will be a standard feature.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			The Tesla Model S and Model X also both have "autopilot" right now.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/autopilot

Far from science fiction. Few more years and these features will be a standard feature.
		
Click to expand...

And the model 3


----------



## Golfmmad (Nov 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Did they talk about reaction times in relation to this, or merely the stopping distance?
		
Click to expand...

They did mention that briefly but the emphasis was always on speed and the consequences. they also made the point that the demo was in near perfect conditions and obviously the knock on effects of less than perfect.
They seem to stick to a set routine as there is a lot to get through and very much, "Speed Awareness" without being too technical.

I did mention to one of the guys at the end of the course that I thought using and texting on a phone would be discussed.
He just simply said, that is a completely different topic and we just concentrate on speed awareness but it could be one for the future.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2019)

Golfmmad said:



			They did mention that briefly but *the emphasis was always on speed and the consequences.* they also made the point that the demo was in near perfect conditions and obviously the knock on effects of less than perfect.
They seem to stick to a set routine as there is a lot to get through and very much, "Speed Awareness" without being too technical.

I did mention to one of the guys at the end of the course that I thought using and texting on a phone would be discussed.
He just simply said, that is a completely different topic and we just concentrate on speed awareness but it could be one for the future.
		
Click to expand...

Two drivers, same car, same conditions.  One is bimbling along at 30mph, taking a call on his hands free mobile.  The other is pushing it a bit, doing 40mph, scanning the road, driving positively.  Something happens.  The bimbler, distracted by his phone, manages to react in an average 1.5 seconds.  The more alert driver reacts quickly, 0.5 seconds.  Who comes to a halt quicker; how much more quickly does that driver stop in terms of distance?

Remember, the emphasis is on speed and the consequences...


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I do not doubt for a second the validity of the example as the boxes were obviously put in an place somewhere between the terminal stopping distance of that driver at 30 and 31 mph. And indeed speed is one of the more easily controllable factors to cut down on stopping distances.

But for example through my work I know very precisely how much moisture on the road in various states (damp, wet, ice, snow, frost, slush) impacts the friction between the car tyre and the road surface and therefore stopping distances. We work with a lot of car manufacturers to supply them with this information so they can feed this into the algorithms that will be used by autonomous vehicles to control their speed (there is a reason currently the vast majority of autonomous vehicle trials are done in dry often sunny conditions).  Even now some countries have permanent variable speed limits depending on the weather (for example 70 mph in the dry and 60 in the wet) which is a good idea. You then add in the underlying and variable skid resistance of a road if it is dry.  Also the quality/amount of tread on tyre.  And also the reaction times of the driver who often is the biggest factor.

I can pretty much guarantee that with road conditions and tyres being equal,  I can stop quicker at 31 mph than my father can at 30 mph.  And no doubt my 18 year old nephew can stop even quicker at 30 mph than I can. I do not mind a focus on speed as as I said, it is relatively easily to measure, although I have my doubts that it can be uniformly measured in 1 mph increments, and the speedo of your car and speed camera will read exactly the same, especially if you have an analogue speedo. It can also be easily changed by the driver.  But getting obsessed to the point where 32 mph is an offence but 30 mph is fine is kind of glossing over and simplifying the safety aspect of driving a lot, even to the point of giving out a false impression of how safe that vehicle at that point in time really is. 30 mph in some conditions/vehicles can be a lot more dangerous than 35 mph in others on the same road. 

Eventually autonomous vehicles will get around this as they will automatically adjust their speeds on many factors, not just the fixed permanent speed limit in place that may or may not be completely inappropriate for that portion of road and that vehicle and the current weather and the current amount of traffic near by and the current amount of pedestrian activity near by etc etc etc. Indeed there is one school of thought that says fixed speed limits may eventually disappear.
		
Click to expand...

The point is that the same person driving the same car under the same conditions at 31 mph will be still moving at 8 mph at the distance they would have stopped at 30 mph.


----------



## Swango1980 (Feb 4, 2020)

Smart Motorways were being debated on Good Morning Britain today. The main argument for the guy defending them was this:

The alternative to Smart Motorways is much worse. Why? Because less capacity on motorways will result in more traffic on local roads, which are more dangerous and there would be even more deaths.

Interesting argument, I wonder when Highways England agreed with local highway authorities that they'd accept more deaths on their motorways to ensure less days on other roads they are not responsible for? It seems, in a nutshell, that there were x deaths on local roads. By creating more capacity on motorways, thus reducing traffic on local roads, the deaths would become x-y, but with an extra z deaths on motorways. However, as long as z less than y, then thumbs up to Smart Highways. Tell that to the people related to the z extra deaths.

He also went on top say "Hard Shoulders are also dangerous". What a crazy argument. Yes, they are dangerous and it would be a reasonable argument if their presence resulted in people stopping to have a picnic on them or a little game of 5 aside. However, they are clearly safer for a broken down car than a live lane, where you'd be relying on drivers being aware the lane is closed if a breakdown happens. And, in a Smart Motorway, the cars closest behind you will never get that warning the lane is closed anyway.

I think he needed to have a better argument. Although, in fairness to him, Good Morning Britain is an impossible platform to make any sort of debate, if your argument happens to be the opposite of Piers Morgan. I'm surprised this guy got a word in at all.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Feb 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			It not that the motorways are now smart, it's that motorists are still thick when using motorways or any highway that has more than one lane. Going to smart/4 lanes just gives blinkered drivers another lane to hog. The problem is in this country is Starting from left to right, inside lane is slowest going out to the fastest. It just does not work. Undertaking should be legalised.
Trouble is as well in this country, speed limit on motorways. Lorrys do what 56mph Max. Maximum is 70 mph. Really. Ave seen cars averaging 80 mph and the rest. Yet when driving in Oz the speed limit Max is 110 kph. And nearly everyone drives at that speed or close to 100 kph. It is strange seeing the same cars alongside you for miles and miles. Yet it works.
		
Click to expand...

You are right, and I've been arguing it for ages.
This ingrained British idea that the lane on your right is for going faster in- always.!
That is why many people ( and , at present, the Law)will still condemn the motorist doing the max speed limit in any lane when there is an unused lane on his left. Doesn't seem to register that
Anyone going faster is breaking the law!
This mentality is best seen on urban dual carriageways which has a speed limit of say, 40 or 50. Drive at that limit in the right hand lane and soon there is someone tailgating and flashing you to get out of his "overtaking" lane.

What do these people think will happen when driverless cars are on the road in abundance(I'll be  too old to see that , I think).? Those cars will never break the speed limit and drivers that do will by then be identified and sorted at whatever place on the road they are at. ( satellite tracking).Speeding will be almost extinct?!

I cannot understand the rationale of this British hatred of undertaking.
Most Countries with Roads with multiple lanes permit and expect undertaking. The British need the Law and the motorist to disenthrall themselves and do the same

Having said that, I do not agree with "smart "motorways. The hard shoulder had an important, vital even, function as a safety feature and to facilitate emergency action. That requirement has not changed. The hard shoulder should remain.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I cannot understand the rationale of this British hatred of undertaking.
Most Countries with Roads with multiple lanes permit and expect undertaking.
		
Click to expand...

my irritation with it usually comes around from being flashed at from behind by a driver wanting me to get out of the way and when I go to pull in I find some idiot tearing up inside me - as the guy behind continues to tailgate and flash his lights.  i am much less bothered about the guy behind - I am happy to clear that lane - but I need somewhere to go and the guy inside blindsided is creating a serious risk...and of course how many times does that idiot behind pass me - and then immediately swing in front of me as the guy inside undertakes and then wants to move out...inconsiderate driving and risk to me and my passengers - that’s where my anger can come from.

even without the tailgater - the law requires me to move in from an outer lane as soon as I can. Undertaking makes that more risky. Just don’t do it. Wait and overtake.

note - my concerns above are when away from junctions.  Approaching motorway junctions I expect cars to juggling about trying to get into correct lane.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			my irritation with it usually comes around from being flashed at from behind by a driver wanting me to get out of the way and when I go to pull in I find some idiot tearing up inside me - as the guy behind continues to tailgate and flash his lights.  i am much less bothered about the guy behind - I am happy to clear that lane - but I need somewhere to go and the guy inside blindsided is creating a serious risk...and of course how many times does that idiot behind pass me - and then immediately swing in front of me as the guy inside undertakes and then wants to move out...inconsiderate driving and risk to me and my passengers - that’s where my anger can come from.

even without the tailgater - the law requires me to move in from an outer lane as soon as I can. Undertaking makes that more risky. Just don’t do it. Wait and overtake.
		
Click to expand...

There is the problem in a nutshell.
In the UK we are expected to change lanes to conform to the law/ code.
On multi lane roads in the US you just choose a lane and stay in it .
If someone wants to pass they can on either side.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			There is the problem in a nutshell.
In the UK we are expected to change lanes to conform to the law/ code.
On multi lane roads in the US you just choose a lane and stay in it .
If someone wants to pass they can on either side.
		
Click to expand...

And so until we adopt a us style approach we just don’t undertake. End of.


----------



## Imurg (Feb 4, 2020)

One of the basic rules of driving that we have in the UK  is drive as far to the left as you can unless you're turning right, overtaking or road signs/markings require you to be elsewhere.
Sadly, many, if not most, have forgotten this.
We are also impatient and/or arrogant. 
The huge majority of bad driving is caused by ignorance, arrogance or impatience  or any combination of the 3.
And that, even more sadly, will not change as long as we have holes in our rear ends


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so until we adopt a us style approach we just don’t undertake. End of.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck with that with the standard of driving here.
But if people don’t dawdle in the lanes it would not be nessesary.
We can be doing the speed limit but we like golf have no right to stop someone going faster if that’s what they want to do.


----------



## Swango1980 (Feb 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are right, and I've been arguing it for ages.
This ingrained British idea that the lane on your right is for going faster in- always.!
That is why many people ( and , at present, the Law)will still condemn the motorist doing the max speed limit in any lane when there is an unused lane on his left. Doesn't seem to register that
Anyone going faster is breaking the law!
This mentality is best seen on urban dual carriageways which has a speed limit of say, 40 or 50. Drive at that limit in the right hand lane and soon there is someone tailgating and flashing you to get out of his "overtaking" lane.

What do these people think will happen when driverless cars are on the road in abundance(I'll be  too old to see that , I think).? Those cars will never break the speed limit and drivers that do will by then be identified and sorted at whatever place on the road they are at. ( satellite tracking).Speeding will be almost extinct?!

I cannot understand the rationale of this British hatred of undertaking.
Most Countries with Roads with multiple lanes permit and expect undertaking. The British need the Law and the motorist to disenthrall themselves and do the same

Having said that, I do not agree with "smart "motorways. The hard shoulder had an important, vital even, function as a safety feature and to facilitate emergency action. That requirement has not changed. The hard shoulder should remain.
		
Click to expand...

It seems interesting that some people are so quick to criticise the "British Way" of driving, and how this is part of the problem. I don't necessarily have enough information to say you are wrong, but do you have any evidence to say you are right?

I have just seen statistics that suggest UK is the 7th safest country in the world to drive according to road fatalities per 1000,000 inhabitants, and 6th safest place to drive according to road fatalities per 100,000 vehicles (5.7 deaths). Ahead of them is San Marino (1.8 deaths), Norway (3 deaths), Switzerland (3.7 deaths), Sweden (4.6 deaths) and Finland (5 deaths). The Scandinavian counties are obviously doing well, but it seems like the UK are not embarrassing themselves. Incidentally, Germany 12th with 6.4 deaths, Australia 15th with 7.4 deaths, USA 34th with 14.2 deaths.

Places to avoid: Somalia (6532.5 deaths per 100,000 vehicles), Central African Republic (4484.4 deaths), Togo (3653.4 deaths), Rwanda (3521.1 deaths), Madagascar (2963 deaths). In actual fact, avoid mainland Africa generally, Libya has the safest roads in Africa, but with a death rate of 46.3.

Here we are, moaning that we can't undertake. Maybe we just don't appreciate how good we have it in comparison to other nations. I wonder what they are discussing on Somalian forums regarding their road safety? I bet they'd love a bit of consistency in a dedicated overtake lane


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Good luck with that with the standard of driving here.
But if people don’t dawdle in the lanes it would not be nessesary.
We can be doing the speed limit but we like golf have no right to stop someone going faster if that’s what they want to do.
		
Click to expand...

If someone is dawdling i just wait until they get out of the way.  The stuff about you having a ‘right’ to go faster - and so you can break the law - really? And if the dawdler is doing 70?


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It seems interesting that some people are so quick to criticise the "British Way" of driving, and how this is part of the problem. I don't necessarily have enough information to say you are wrong, but do you have any evidence to say you are right?

I have just seen statistics that suggest UK is the 7th safest country in the world to drive according to road fatalities per 1000,000 inhabitants, and 6th safest place to drive according to road fatalities per 100,000 vehicles (5.7 deaths). Ahead of them is San Marino (1.8 deaths), Norway (3 deaths), Switzerland (3.7 deaths), Sweden (4.6 deaths) and Finland (5 deaths). The Scandinavian counties are obviously doing well, but it seems like the UK are not embarrassing themselves. Incidentally, Germany 12th with 6.4 deaths, Australia 15th with 7.4 deaths, USA 34th with 14.2 deaths.

Places to avoid: Somalia (6532.5 deaths per 100,000 vehicles), Central African Republic (4484.4 deaths), Togo (3653.4 deaths), Rwanda (3521.1 deaths), Madagascar (2963 deaths). In actual fact, avoid mainland Africa generally, Libya has the safest roads in Africa, but with a death rate of 46.3.

Here we are, moaning that we can't undertake. Maybe we just don't appreciate how good we have it in comparison to other nations. *I wonder what they are discussing on Somalian forums *regarding their road safety? I bet they'd love a bit of consistency in a dedicated overtake lane 

Click to expand...


Its mainly just Piracy and getting your AK47 custom fitted.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If someone is dawdling i just wait until they get out of the way.  The stuff about you having a ‘right’ to go faster - and so you can break the law - really? And if the dawdler is doing 70?
		
Click to expand...

I never said a right to go faster I said “we have no right to stop someone else”
If they want to break the law that’s up to them.
Even doing 70mph you should not hold anyone up if they wish to go faster.
That’s the polices job!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I never said a right to go faster I said “we have no right to stop someone else”
If they want to break the law that’s up to them.
*Even doing 70mph you should not hold anyone up if they wish to go faster.*
That’s the polices job!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - I misunderstood ...

_We can be doing the speed limit but we like golf have no right to stop someone going faster if that’s what they want to do. _

And you have surely no_ right _to break the speed limit.

Why not just wait...and not break the law or create a risk to other road users (as you cannot always predict what other road users will do).


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I misunderstood ...

_We can be doing the speed limit but we like golf have no right to stop someone going faster if that’s what they want to do. _

And you have surely no_ right _to break the speed limit.

Why not just wait...and not break the law or create a risk to other road users (as you cannot always predict what other road users will do).
		
Click to expand...

Other people can do what they want 100+ If they like .
I just don’t get in their way !


----------



## Jamesbrown (Feb 4, 2020)

I always keep to the left when not overtaking and find myself overtaking on the left. The closer I get further down the M1 the driving gets worse. Southerners can’t drive.


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

I would drive at two trillion miles an hour if I could. I just would. Please just get out of my way, and we will all be happy. I will be happy zipping by, and every one else will be happy tutting as I go past. Sorted. Can't see the problem.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I misunderstood ...

_We can be doing the speed limit but we like golf have no right to stop someone going faster if that’s what they want to do. _

*And you have surely no right to break the speed limit.*

Why not just wait...and not break the law or create a risk to other road users (as you cannot always predict what other road users will do).
		
Click to expand...

How do you know that?  What is the car; who are the occupants; what is it being used for?  Does that vehicle or driver have no right to break the speed limit...


----------



## Swango1980 (Feb 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I would drive at two trillion miles an hour if I could. I just would. Please just get out of my way, and we will all be happy. I will be happy zipping by, and every one else will be happy tutting as I go past. Sorted. Can't see the problem.
		
Click to expand...

You can't and you wouldn't. That would be faster than the speed of light, and you can't travel faster than the speed of light as your mass would become infinite as you approach that speed. 

However, long before you reach that speed, and probably long before you reach 200-300 mph, you'd probably be squashed up against a wall as you failed to negotiate a gentle bend


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You can't and you wouldn't. That would be faster than the speed of light, and you can't travel faster than the speed of light as your mass would become infinite as you approach that speed. 

However, long before you reach that speed, and probably long before you reach 200-300 mph, you'd probably be squashed up against a wall as you failed to negotiate a gentle bend 

Click to expand...

True, but I reserve the right to try.


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

Having driven round the M25 and up and down the M3 laot over the past year, I do have a few comments.
The variable limit is there as a random money maker.
The refuge areas are insufficient in a real emergency.
The speed limits are not there to reduce congestion. 
People with cloned plates can ignore all speed limits, and have zero chance of getting caught.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2020)

Smart motorways with no hard shoulder are death traps, imagine breaking down in the inside lane between refuge areas with trucks coming at you. The inside lanes need closing down now until a better system is put in place.


----------



## stefanovic (Feb 5, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			yet when you get to the gantry with the camera on it, funnily enough the reduced limit isn't displayed on the overheads.
Its another tax, and has sod all to do with congestion, casualty reduction or any other made up rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

Similar to my experience on the M42 last July.
6.40 pm with virtually no traffic in front and some gantry signs not working I was done for driving at 70mph. £100 fine and 3 points.
Next time I drove past I had difficulty even spotting the camera, as it was partially hidden on the side of the gantry. 
The technology comes from Australia and I don't think it's reliable because it doesn't know if the signs are even working.
There is also likely to be a tailgating heavy lorry behind which is illegal but never picked up on.


----------

