# School Holiday Rip Offs



## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2015)

In association with Centre Parcs let's play a game of which week do you think is February half term..........





Even after paying the fine for taking the kids out of school it's still over Â£400 cheaper to go during term time.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2015)

That's obscene. I'd be tempted to say the company has no social morals, in effect almost forcing parents to children out of school in order to save money. A sad sign of our times.


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## sawtooth (Nov 28, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			That's obscene. I'd be tempted to say the company has no social morals, in effect almost forcing parents to children out of school in order to save money. A sad sign of our times.
		
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I agree and this sort of thing really winds me up.

Its a bit like the mobile food stand that thinks its OK to sell a hot dog for Â£5 or a tin of coke for a couple of quid. It shouldn't be allowed really.


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## Smiffy (Nov 28, 2015)

sawtooth said:



			I agree and this sort of thing really winds me up.

Its a bit like the mobile food stand that thinks its OK to sell a hot dog for Â£5 or a tin of coke for a couple of quid. It shouldn't be allowed really.
		
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Or a garage charging 60p for a pkt of 25p Rizlas because they are "convenient".


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## robert.redmile (Nov 28, 2015)

it winds me up, and I have kids so it hurts me - but it's simply supply and demand. They always sell out at school holidays, so you could argue it's too cheap!

Its like moaning how expensive it is go to watch Man u, or England rugby, or Coldplay  (and believe I do moan!!) yet you try and get ticket! - the true price is probably 50% higher......

You should charge a price that allows you to sell your last slot, ticket, bed, 10 minutes before time runs out - if centre packs charged Â£1500 for these rooms I bet they would still sell out. unfortunately.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2015)

A lot of the travel companies suggest that the prices during the peak times reflect the true value -off peak the demand isn't as high so to try and entice people they lower the prices - truth or not ?


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## pbrown7582 (Nov 28, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A lot of the travel companies suggest that the prices during the peak times reflect the true value -off peak the demand isn't as high so to try and entice people they lower the prices - truth or not ?
		
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Supply and demand of a free market economy.
 Yes I have children and it affects me too, as I will not take them out of school to potentially harm there education to save some money.


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## sawtooth (Nov 28, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			it winds me up, and I have kids so it hurts me - but it's simply supply and demand. They always sell out at school holidays, so you could argue it's too cheap!

Its like moaning how expensive it is go to watch Man u, or England rugby, or Coldplay  (and believe I do moan!!) yet you try and get ticket! - the true price is probably 50% higher......

You should charge a price that allows you to sell your last slot, ticket, bed, 10 minutes before time runs out - if centre packs charged Â£1500 for these rooms I bet they would still sell out. unfortunately.
		
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Paying to watch a live show, concert or match is a bit different because its unique and something you cant get anywhere else.

But you know the cost of a tin of coke or a packet of rizlas or whatever and its pretty hard to stomach someone charging 5x what it could cost elsewhere.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2015)

Try booking a Travelodge in Dundee when the Open is at Carnoustie.

Simple case of supply and demand.

Centre Parks Penrith is a Scottish toon at Scottish half term as it is always a week earlier [and much cheaper].


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## Captainron (Nov 28, 2015)

I'm finding this out. We looked st s trip to Turkey in summer and there is no way we will shell out. For the same price as a week in Turkey all inclusive at a decent resort is the same as I spent on 2 weeks in South Africa. 
Might just take the kids out during term time. Our school is fairly good about it.


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## Mattyboy (Nov 28, 2015)

I go to Lanzarote in the October weekend. Monarch flights from Gatwick this morning for October 2016;
Out;
11 October   Â£48.99 (lowest)
21 October   Â£228.99
22 October   Â£228.99

Back;
29 October Â£302.99
30 October Â£302.99
3 NovemberÂ£39.99

These are for one person, no luggage or accomodation etc. Nuff said. :angry:


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## Karl102 (Nov 28, 2015)

A school where my friend works struck up a deal with the local travel agent as they had a problem with absences either the week before or after half term.  Either way it was cheaper to pay the fine and go away than travel at half term.
I think the travel agent was giving a 25% discount or something like that....


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2015)

One of the schools near us is having all of their teacher training days in one week the week before half term so that families can go away that week and not have to pay a fortune.


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## DCB (Nov 28, 2015)

Surely it's one of the things you have to take into consideration when you start a family ? I'm not in favour of taking kids out of school on an unauthorised absence. Do it once and it may be okay, but it can soon becomes a trend and sometimes happens more than once in a year.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2015)

This idea that you are going to irreparably damage your child's education if you take them out a few days before end of term is laughable. Plenty of kids miss time due to sickness and don't lose out, and in the school my kids go to, they seem to do a lot more playing including watching DVDs, days out etc in the run up to end of term. 

It is OK for Tory ministers to lecture us. Their kids are all at private schools which have longer holidays anyway. The fines are just another form of stealth tax levied on parents.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2015)

Ethan said:



			This idea that you are going to irreparably damage your child's education if you take them out a few days before end of term is laughable. Plenty of kids miss time due to sickness and don't lose out, and in the school my kids go to, they seem to do a lot more playing including watching DVDs, days out etc in the run up to end of term. 

It is OK for Tory ministers to lecture us. Their kids are all at private schools which have longer holidays anyway. The fines are just another form of stealth tax levied on parents.
		
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As a school governor I see both sides of the argument. The are plenty of studies that show the poor attenders are the poor attainers and some parents are feckless and never give their child a chance to succeed through their attitude to attendance. Also a week in Provence out of school holiday times is not a human right. Despite how  middle class parents try to justify it by saying young Phobe will be mingling with the locals and speaking Italian all day. 

Also it is not just end of term that kids get taken out, we've had parents take kids out in sats week or out for 2 weeks a week after they go back in the autumn after 6 weeks off. And some kids do struggle to catch up if they miss a week off, either through illness or holidays. 

Ideally you would leave it to the head to use their common sense, but people will and have always taken the micky who spoil it for everyone.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			As a school governor I see both sides of the argument. The are plenty of studies that show the poor attenders are the poor attainers and some parents are feckless and never give their child a chance to succeed through their attitude to attendance. Also a week in Provence out of school holiday times is not a human right. Despite how  middle class parents try to justify it by saying young Phobe will be mingling with the locals and speaking Italian all day. 

Also it is not just end of term that kids get taken out, we've had parents take kids out in sats week or out for 2 weeks a week after they go back in the autumn after 6 weeks off. And some kids do struggle to catch up if they miss a week off, either through illness or holidays. 

Ideally you would leave it to the head to use their common sense, but people will and have always taken the micky who spoil it for everyone.
		
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Well, we aren't talking about constant truancy here. We are talking about getting a jump on the holidays and saving a load of cash. Nobody said it was a human right. I expect some people in Provence will speak excellent Italian, but more of them will speak French. 

The problem with the head exercising common sense is that it common sense is a lot less common these days, judgement is likely to be highly variable between schools and subject to favouritism.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ideally you would leave it to the head to use their common sense, but people will and have always taken the micky who spoil it for everyone.
		
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I think the head teachers need more guidance on what is and isn't acceptable as a reason for having a holiday during term time. At the minute they are told "only in exceptional circumstances" and they have to decide what that means.

Last year I was working offshore during February half term, Easter, May half term, 5 of the 6 weeks of the summer holiday and October half term so we had no opportunity to have a holiday during the school holidays. I booked for a week away at the end of September after explaining the above to the school and the head mistress said it would have to go down as unauthorised absence.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2015)

I may be wrong, as it was a long time ago, but I can't remember any kids being taken out of school early to go on holiday either in my middle school or high school and so this seems a modern trend. Is that the case? To me, it's very black and white. School years are published well in advanced and you should make your holiday provisions and budget accordingly. We only get one chance at a good education (and I did waste some of mine through my own idiocy, not my parents whisking me out to go away) and kids need to be in school. I simply think it's that clear cut and clearly these "fines" aren't strong enough to act as any kind of deterrent


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I may be wrong, as it was a long time ago, but I can't remember any kids being taken out of school early to go on holiday either in my middle school or high school and so this seems a modern trend. Is that the case? To me, it's very black and white.* School years are published well in advanced and you should make your holiday provisions and budget accordingly.* We only get one chance at a good education (and I did waste some of mine through my own idiocy, not my parents whisking me out to go away) and kids need to be in school. *I simply think it's that clear cut and clearly these "fines" aren't strong enough to act as any kind of deterrent*

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It's not always that simple though. I work bloody hard to provide for my family and this involves having to work during the school holidays. I have a good job and can afford to take my kids away during holidays as long as I am home to do it. Some parents simply cannot take their children away during the school holiday periods such as those in the military or if they work in the hospitality industry. Parents that run hotels have to work over the main holidays as that is when they make the money that keeps them going through the winter months. 

The fines definitely aren't strong enough to act as a deterrent, as my example at the start of the thread shows. Over Â£400 cheaper to go during term time even once you've paid the fine.


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## pbrown7582 (Nov 28, 2015)

The fines will become a deterant as they are per child per parent and double after each instance that Â£60 each parent/child soon becomes Â£120 Â£240 Â£480.......


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			The fines will become a deterant as they are per child per parent and double after each instance that Â£60 each parent/child soon becomes Â£120 Â£240 Â£480.......
		
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Maybe but even at Â£240 it's still not going to deter many. More a case of the have's being able to soak up these costs and the have not's having to scrimp every penny to afford to go then not getting the flexibility to take advantage of the cheaper deals, along with those that actually think their kids need to be in school during term times.


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## User20205 (Nov 28, 2015)

Mine took me out when I was a kid, we went to Disney world it was brilliant. It should be done on attendance, good previous attendance and the school can use their discretion, poor attendance, maybe not. 

I haven't done it, I probably would do, in junior school, not senior. 

And re centre parks, it's a bit of a rip off anyway, but their school holiday prices are ridiculous. The disparity between term and non term is embarrassing. It's cheaper to go abroad to somewhere like menorca for a week. At least then you don't have to share the pool of human soup with fellas with 'interesting' tattoos


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think the head teachers need more guidance on what is and isn't acceptable as a reason for having a holiday during term time. At the minute they are told "only in exceptional circumstances" and they have to decide what that means.

Last year I was working offshore during February half term, Easter, May half term, 5 of the 6 weeks of the summer holiday and October half term so we had no opportunity to have a holiday during the school holidays. I booked for a week away at the end of September after explaining the above to the school and the head mistress said it would have to go down as unauthorised absence.
		
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You are a prefect example of what is an exceptional circumstance. Heads should take into account if parents can not take time off in school holiday time. That has anyways been defined as an exceptional circumstance and still is.


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## MendieGK (Nov 29, 2015)

I've got an 18mnth year old son, and I sure as hell will be taking him out of school sometimes if it saves a fortune.

If parents take the time to educate their children outside of school like they should, then a week off school a year isn't going to hinder their education at all.

Absolutely agree that it should be done on an attendance basis with a break 'earnt'


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I may be wrong, as it was a long time ago, but I can't remember any kids being taken out of school early to go on holiday either in my middle school or high school and so this seems a modern trend. Is that the case? To me, it's very black and white. School years are published well in advanced and you should make your holiday provisions and budget accordingly. We only get one chance at a good education (and I did waste some of mine through my own idiocy, not my parents whisking me out to go away) and kids need to be in school. I simply think it's that clear cut and clearly these "fines" aren't strong enough to act as any kind of deterrent
		
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When did you go to School, times have changed and moved on, as others have said, morally disgusting that Companies can take advantage of Parents, I get the supply and demand argument but the excessive over the top price increase is wrong, 
Will children really suffer missing 2 weeks a year?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

Doesn't matter when I went. Term times are published. Stick to it.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Doesn't matter when I went. Term times are published. Stick to it.
		
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And what about those that are unable to stick to it because of work or other circumstances? Is it just tough luck to them and they don't get a family holiday?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			And what about those that are unable to stick to it because of work or other circumstances? Is it just tough luck to them and they don't get a family holiday?
		
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I understand your circumstance and my comment was general. If you have legitimate grounds like you of course there needs to be give and take but schools seem to hide behind the rules. I guess if you do it for one....


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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2015)

Ethan said:



			This idea that you are going to irreparably damage your child's education if you take them out a few days before end of term is laughable.
		
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Spot on. 
I played truant quite a bit from school and my grammar and spelling are betterer than a lot of other boys what I went to school with.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I understand your circumstance and my comment was general. If you have legitimate grounds like you of course there needs to be give and take but schools seem to hide behind the rules. I guess if you do it for one....
		
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I was more thinking about those in the armed forces or hospitality trade rather than myself. 

I thought that the recent court case where the guy said that his daughter was "attending school regularly" despite taking a week off for a holiday was the beginning of the end of the fines but sadly it seems not. I think that missing a week of Primary school is not going to affect a child's education too much. Once they get to secondary school and are studying for exams it's a different situation.

I also think it's a badly worded law as it says that a child must attend school regularly. Technically speaking if a child goes to school every Monday and misses every other day of the week they are attending regularly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Doesn't matter when I went. Term times are published. Stick to it.
		
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So long as you stick to this ethos, then good, just remember it though when you question anything else on here, seeing as you are now one for the rules!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Who gets the money from the fines ? Local council or the schools ?

Common sense should be applied in all cases when children are taken away from school for a period.


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## pbrown7582 (Nov 29, 2015)

Attendance rates of less than 95% now warrant a reminder letter that a child risks being labelled a regular absentee.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who gets the money from the fines ? Local council or the schools ?

Common sense should be applied in all cases when children are taken away from school for a period.
		
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The local authority gets the money from the fines. Supposedly to cover the cost of enforcement and prosecutions.

The problem with using common sense is that the schools are put under pressure from Ofsted to raise attendances and as a result are reluctant to authorise absences.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was more thinking about those in the armed forces or hospitality trade rather than myself. 

I thought that the recent court case where the guy said that his daughter was "attending school regularly" despite taking a week off for a holiday was the beginning of the end of the fines but sadly it seems not. I think that missing a week of Primary school is not going to affect a child's education too much. Once they get to secondary school and are studying for exams it's a different situation.

I also think it's a badly worded law as it says that a child must attend school regularly. Technically speaking if a child goes to school every Monday and misses every other day of the week they are attending regularly.
		
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Not arguing the ethos. I don't have kids (pending our adoption application) but think there has to be a degree of common sense on both sides. As it stands, the system is cack and suits no-one


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			The local authority gets the money from the fines. Supposedly to cover the cost of enforcement and prosecutions.

The problem with using common sense is that the schools are put under pressure from Ofsted to raise attendances and as a result are reluctant to authorise absences.
		
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So the fines are a little money spinner for local council who then may well give the school a bit of extra funding ?

When on the way back from golf a couple weeks back they had stories of parents who had recieved fines - one took their son out of school to attend a family funeral because they wouldn't authorise absence , another wouldn't allow a child to attend their own mothers wedding ,also a couple of stories of families being fined when taking their child out of school so they could spend a week with their military father who had been away for months - it all seemed a lack of understand and compassion for family life from the head teachers


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not arguing the ethos. I don't have kids (pending our adoption application) but think there has to be a degree of common sense on both sides. As it stands, the system is cack and suits no-one
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			I may be wrong, as it was a long time ago, but I can't remember any kids being taken out of school early to go on holiday either in my middle school or high school and so this seems a modern trend. Is that the case? *To me, it's very black and white.* School years are published well in advanced and you should make your holiday provisions and budget accordingly. *We only get one chance at a good education* (and I did waste some of mine through my own idiocy, not my parents whisking me out to go away) and kids need to be in school. I simply think it's that clear cut and clearly* these "fines" aren't strong enough to act as any kind of deterrent*

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So here you quite clearly have no time for Parents who don't like it and I asked a simple question.



HomerJSimpson said:



			Doesn't matter when I went. Term times are published. Stick to it.
		
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This is the short sharp answer you gave and then follow it up with this



HomerJSimpson said:



			Not arguing the ethos. I don't have kids (pending our adoption application) but *think there has to be a degree of common sense on both sides. As it stands, the system is cack and suits no-one*

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So in the space of a few posts you've gone from one side of the fence to the middle, is it any wonder you get asked awkward questions when it's difficult to follow you at times.


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So here you quite clearly have no time for Parents who don't like it and I asked a simple question.



This is the short sharp answer you gave and then follow it up with this



So in the space of a few posts you've gone from one side of the fence to the middle, is it any wonder you get asked awkward questions when it's difficult to follow you at times.
		
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Ahhh the famous homer contradiction  hang around they'll be another along in a minute. 

What gets me in this, is people without kids chucking their oar in. It's none of their business. 
Parents can see pros and cons either way, but unless you've got a dog in the fight, it's a  view that is a complete irrelevance.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the fines are a little money spinner for local council who then may well give the school a bit of extra funding ?

When on the way back from golf a couple weeks back they had stories of parents who had recieved fines - one took their son out of school to attend a family funeral because they wouldn't authorise absence , another wouldn't allow a child to attend their own mothers wedding ,also a couple of stories of families being fined when taking their child out of school so they could spend a week with their military father who had been away for months - it all seemed a lack of understand and compassion for family life from the head teachers
		
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In all these cases these would be classed as exceptional circumstances. If these stories are true and not urban myth as many of these things are, then the head teacher and governing body has not interpreted the rules correctly. In those cases then it's not the fault of the rules, but the people that misinterpreted them.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			Attendance rates of less than 95% now warrant a reminder letter that a child risks being labelled a regular absentee.
		
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No they don't. Head teachers can try and nip an issue in the bud by reminding some feckless parents that they need to send their child to school. If there are genuine reasons for low attendance such as illness then a letter is not automatically produced.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			In all these cases these would be classed as exceptional circumstances. If these stories are true and not urban myth as many of these things are, then the head teach and governing body has not interpreted the rules correctly. In those cases then it's not the fault of the rules, but the people that misinterpreted them.
		
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They are very much true and very much a regular occurence from what I could tell by the phone in


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are very much true and very much a regular occurence from what I could tell by the phone in
		
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Phone in..... enough said.  

As a school governor I can assure you that schools are not in the business of regularly stopping pupils from attending their parents weddings or funerals of family members. Yes there may well have been a one off, but this kind of thing does not happen regularly.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			Mine took me out when I was a kid, we went to Disney world it was brilliant. It should be done on attendance, good previous attendance and the school can use their discretion, poor attendance, maybe not.
		
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This exactly 100%. If a child has 95%+ attendance then they should be granted the time off. Why not use it as a dangling carrot for those who don't attend as regularly as they should?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Phone in..... enough said.  

As a school governor I can assure you that schools are not in the business of regularly stopping pupils from attending their parents weddings. Yes there may well have been a one off, but this kind of thing does not happen regularly.
		
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Hearing the stories it seemed more than one offs in regards authorised absence approvals being turned down. They also had an ex head teacher on who even stated he very rarely if ever authorised a child being absent - for any reason , and one request did include a parent return from Afghan on R&R asking to take their son out of school a week early before Easter


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			This exactly 100%. If a child has 95%+ attendance then they should be granted the time off. Why not use it as a dangling carrot for those who don't attend as regularly as they should?
		
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Because ofsted place huge emphasis on maximum possible attendance.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the fines are a little money spinner for local council who then may well give the school a bit of extra funding ?

When on the way back from golf a couple weeks back they had stories of parents who had recieved fines - one took their son out of school to attend a family funeral because they wouldn't authorise absence , another wouldn't allow a child to attend their own mothers wedding ,also a couple of stories of families being fined when taking their child out of school so they could spend a week with their military father who had been away for months - it all seemed a lack of understand and compassion for family life from the head teachers
		
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My sister in law was booked to go to Tunisia during the holidays. She has two kids in the same primary schoold, one in infants one in juniors. Obviously their holiday gotcancelled, the only thing the travel agent could offer them was a week in Lanzarote 4 weeks into the school term. She put in the holiday requests stating extenuating circumstances. Infant school said yes, juniors said no. How does that work?


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because ofsted place huge emphasis on maximum possible attendance.
		
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So would it not be in Ofsteds interests to encourage poor attenders to go in more regularly by using holiday time as a carrot?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hearing the stories it seemed more than one offs in regards authorised absence approvals being turned down. They also had an ex head teacher on who even stated he very rarely if ever authorised a child being absent - for any reason , and one request did include a parent return from Afghan on R&R asking to take their son out of school a week early before Easter
		
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And the head was interpreting the guidance incorrectly. Just because the radio station had got him on does not mean he was correct in his actions. And I suspect he was on because of the fact he added to one side of the debate, rather than his knowledge of the guidance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the head was interpreting the guidance incorrectly. Just because the radio station had got him on does not mean he was correct in his actions. And I suspect he was on because of the fact he added to one side of the debate, rather than his knowledge of the guidance.
		
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If it's one offs why does it seem to have a lot of stories of heads "interpreting the guidance incorrectly"

If that is the case why do they people still get fined then ? Why doesn't someone above the head overrule him and waive the fine ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So here you quite clearly have no time for Parents who don't like it and I asked a simple question.



This is the short sharp answer you gave and then follow it up with this



So in the space of a few posts you've gone from one side of the fence to the middle, is it any wonder you get asked awkward questions when it's difficult to follow you at times.
		
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Simply trying to find common ground in an argument. It's caused reasoned debate. It's what adults do rather than snidey cheap digs. Never mind. Carry on


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			So would it not be in Ofsteds interests to encourage poor attenders to go in more regularly by using holiday time as a carrot?
		
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Ofsted and the government will never encourage pupils to have time of in term time to go on holiday. No way, will never happen. Saying if you come to school you can get more authorised time off does not make sense. 

Attendance is not run like some supermarket reward scheme. Legally kids have to go to school unless there are exceptional circumstances. These include many things such as when parents genuinely can not take time off in school holidays, when kids have special educational needs and accommodation they need is not available in school holidays plus things like funerals and weddings. Also many schools look favourably on parents who genuinely can not afford holidays in school holiday time. As in any holiday, not the fact they can afford 2 weeks all inclusive at Disney during the easter holidays. 

As I keep saying, the heads and schools do have the authority to authorise time off. But rightly or wrong they are under a huge amount of pressure to ensure attendance is high.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Simply trying to find common ground in an argument. It's caused reasoned debate. It's what adults do rather than snidey cheap digs. Never mind. Carry on
		
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Rubbish Martin, I asked you a genuine question and you made the snidey cheap dig, you need to practise what you preach, your very good at trying to bait Phil on numerous threads, even though you know he will not answer you and when you choose you throw them at others, can't have it both ways.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish Martin, I asked you a genuine question and you made the snidey cheap dig, you need to practise what you preach, your very good at trying to bait Phil on numerous threads, even though you know he will not answer you and when you choose you throw them at others, can't have it both ways.
		
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Not necessarily just you. Others always chip in. Sorry, not singling you out. I was simply trying to find an understanding of how/why my belief, which I still think is valid, isn't in line with outhers and the examples of off shore workers, forces posted overseas etc would seem to be prime examples of where a degree of discretion could (but clearly isn't) applied.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ofsted and the government will never encourage pupils to have time of in term time to go on holiday. No way, will never happen. Saying if you come to school you can get more authorised time off does not make sense. 

.
		
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Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But if it gets a child from say 70% attendance to 90+% does that not make sense?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it's one offs why does it seem to have a lot of stories of heads "interpreting the guidance incorrectly"

If that is the case why do they people still get fined then ? Why doesn't someone above the head overrule him and waive the fine ?
		
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Because the head and the governing body are responsible for interpreting the guidance. There is basically no one above then who moderates their decisions unless you decide to challenge it in court. Which is very expensive, so basically people just pay up. 

And there are always 2 sides of the story. All we hear is one side from a very angry parent. You rarely hear the other side of even hear about the many thousands of parents who have been given authorised absence. I am pretty sure I could counter every high profile story where kids have wrongly not given authorised absence with an example of where they have from my school alone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because the head and the governing body are responsible for interpreting the guidance. There is basically no one above then who moderates their decisions unless you decide to challenge it in court. Which is very expensive, so basically people just pay up. 

And there are always 2 sides of the story. All we hear is one side from a very angry parent. You rarely hear the other side of even hear about the many thousands of parents who have been given authorised absence. I am pretty sure I could counter every high profile story where kids have wrongly not given authorised absence with an example of where they have from my school alone.
		
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So it's not just the head interpreting the guidelines wrong ?

Using the wedding example - the parent was still fined ? So you say it's clear that it's exceptional circumstances that the head should allow the absence but doesn't so why doesn't the governing body above him reverse his desicion when he put through the paperwork ? 

There just seems to be too many instances where absence has been denied when it's a clear exceptional circumstance - the fact other schools have allowed it doesn't change that head appeared to be unable to judge or under pressure or want the council to have a bit of money into the coffers


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because the head and the governing body are responsible for interpreting the guidance. There is basically no one above then who moderates their decisions unless you decide to challenge it in court. Which is very expensive, so basically people just pay up. 

And there are always 2 sides of the story. All we hear is one side from a very angry parent. You rarely hear the other side of even hear about the many thousands of parents who have been given authorised absence. I am pretty sure I could counter every high profile story where kids have wrongly not given authorised absence with an example of where they have from my school alone.
		
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I see where you are coming from but don't forget these cases of angry parents sounding off makes good paper and TV coverage and parents saying how happy they were for the school to have helped meet their needs doesn't


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But if it gets a child from say 70% attendance to 90+% does that not make sense?
		
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I think the kids, or more often parents, that have poor attendance will not be incentivised by the opportunity to have authorised absence. If they are poor attenders then they tend not to care about absence being authorised or not. 

In a way your suggestion is a bit like trying to solve the issue of slow play by saying if you get round in under 4 hours 5 times in a row, you can then take as long as you want for the rest of the year .


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's not just the head interpreting the guidelines wrong ?

Using the wedding example - the parent was still fined ? So you say it's clear that it's exceptional circumstances that the head should allow the absence but doesn't so why doesn't the governing body above him reverse his desicion when he put through the paperwork ? 

There just seems to be too many instances where absence has been denied when it's a clear exceptional circumstance - the fact other schools have allowed it doesn't change that head appeared to be unable to judge or under pressure or want the council to have a bit of money into the coffers
		
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Governing bodies do not audit the heads decisions/paper work in real time, they just set the policy. If it becomes clear that the head is not interpreting the policy correctly then that will be discussed at a governing body meeting. 

Also it is not the local authority putting pressure on schools to fine parents, but more the pressure on schools from ofsted that is causing a lot of heads to do this.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Governing bodies do not audit the heads decisions/paper work in real time, they just set the policy. If it becomes clear that the head is not interpreting the policy correctly then that will be discussed at a governing body meeting. 

Also it is not the local authority putting pressure on schools to fine parents, but more the pressure on schools from ofsted that is causing a lot of heads to do this.
		
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So it's basically just the call of one person to administer fines towards parents based on his call ?! That doesn't seem a very robust system


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			In a way your suggestion is a bit like trying to solve the issue of slow play by saying if you get round in under 4 hours 5 times in a row, you can then take as long as you want for the rest of the year . 

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Not really, because it isn't going to save me either three grand, or a whacking great fine!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's basically just the call of one person to administer fines towards parents based on his call ?! That doesn't seem a very robust system
		
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It's is the heads call as they run the school on an operational basis. Much as any chief exec/MD runs a company and makes calls.  But any decent governing body will be aware of how the head is interpreting policy. But this does not happen in real time.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Not really, because it isn't going to save me either three grand, or a whacking great fine!
		
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If you are saving yourself 3 grand then you holiday in some very fancy places . A week In Beadnell is all I can afford in the summer


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2015)

On the flip side I now love my UK holidays more as I choose to go when there will be none or not many screaming kids about, it's bliss &#128526;


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's is the heads call as they run the school on an operational basis. Much as any chief exec/MD runs a company and makes calls.  But any decent governing body will be aware of how the head is interpreting policy. But this does not happen in real time.
		
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That's madness that there is no one above the head to monitor and assess each application


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

Fish said:



			On the flip side I now love my UK holidays more as I choose to go when there will be none or not many screaming kids about, it's bliss &#128526;
		
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I have to agree. Looking forward to Yorkshire next year, deep in the dales. Any chance we can stick any sprogs in 't'mills?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's madness that there is no one above the head to monitor and assess each application
		
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No is not, the head has earned the right to make these calls. You don't have someone monitoring every decision the chief exec makes. And in the grand scheme of things, these decisions are pretty small beer compared with what heads have to do on a daily basis.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			No is not, the head has earned the right to make these calls. You don't have someone monitoring every decision the chief exec makes. And in the grand scheme of things, these decisions are pretty small beer compared with what heads have to do on a daily basis.
		
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Of course you need someone to clarify the choices especially when it effects families and their children and when it's quite clear not all heads have the ability to make clear judgements - what happens if a head has a grudge against a parent etc - so many different permutations. All it needs is for the desicions to go to the next level up for clarification and then it's sorted.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you are saving yourself 3 grand then you holiday in some very fancy places . A week In Beadnell is all I can afford in the summer 

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Lol, fair enough comment, maybe a small exaggeration on my part but you get my gist. I think this is something we will have to agree to disagree over or we will be here longer than the football tnread!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			No is not, the head has earned the right to make these calls. You don't have someone monitoring every decision the chief exec makes. And in the grand scheme of things, these decisions are pretty small beer compared with what heads have to do on a daily basis.
		
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Good shout. It's why I think that term time needs to be sacrosanct wherever possible. I do see why you can argue that there are exceptional circumstances and some given here would seem valid, but it has to be a decision made somewhere and surely the head teacher knowing what is happening and having a fair idea about the pupil in their care, is the best equipped to do this


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 29, 2015)

Can see why this would be anoying but it seems just like supply and demand to me. If it helps don't think of it as they hike prices during the school hols as much as cheaper deals are available to those able to travel outside of peak times.


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good shout. It's why I think that term time needs to be sacrosanct wherever possible. I do see why you can argue that there are exceptional circumstances and some given here would seem valid, but it has to be a decision made somewhere and surely the head teacher knowing what is happening and having a fair idea about the pupil in their care, is the best equipped to do this
		
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Why do you care?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course you need someone to clarify the choices especially when it effects families and their children and when it's quite clear not all heads have the ability to make clear judgements - what happens if a head has a grudge against a parent etc - so many different permutations. All it needs is for the desicions to go to the next level up for clarification and then it's sorted.
		
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So we are saying that we trust heads to make decisions that potentially effect the future life chances of pupils through how the school operates and teaches it's pupils and how they develop and incentivise the staff,  but we don't trust them to not authorise someone's holiday to Torremolinos? 

  And as I have already said, there is no one above the head for school operational issues. If you think there should be then email Nicky Morgan.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			Why do you care?
		
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Because it's a forum and I have a right to express my views and hopefully at some point in 2016 we'll be adopting after a long, long process. Is that OK with you and apologies for not running it by you first


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Lol, fair enough comment, maybe a small exaggeration on my part but you get my gist. I think this is something we will have to agree to disagree over or we will be here longer than the football tnread!
		
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I mostly avoid football threads, they bring out the worst in people.Where as this one has in no way at times resorted to petty point scoring fuelled by long held grudges


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because it's a forum and I have a right to express my views and hopefully at some point in 2016 we'll be adopting after a long, long process. Is that OK with you and apologies for not running it by you first
		
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But if you have no kids why have you got an opinion? It doesn't affect you either way. 
You've no experience on the subject which makes your opinion nonsense


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			But if you have no kids why have you got an opinion? It doesn't affect you either way. 
You've no experience on the subject which makes your opinion nonsense
		
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But I will have, hopefully next year so always interested to get an insight. I don't play professional football so does that preclude me having a view on those threads too? It doesn't matter either way and quite frankly what's it got to do with you? I've as much right to post as the next man thank you


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			But if you have no kids why have you got an opinion? It doesn't affect you either way. 
You've no experience on the subject which makes your opinion nonsense
		
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With the best will in the world, a lot of posts on here are made with little, if no direct experience of the subject. Only opinion based on a number of things.

For example as a white middle class male I have never experienced discrimination. But I hope I can comment on that topic and add something to the debate?


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the best will in the world, a lot of posts on here are made with little, if no direct experience of the subject. Only opinion based on a number of things.

For example as a white middle class male I have never experienced discrimination. But I hope I can comment on that topic and add something to the debate?
		
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But you or I can't talk with any authority on discrimination for example. We know it's wrong, it doesn't sit right with us, but we can definitively say what it feels like. 
Expressing a view on something you have no knowledge of makes you a vacuous bag of wind IMO


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			Expressing a view on something you have no knowledge of makes you a vacuous bag of wind IMO

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So that would be a large majority of the forum on a large range of subjects then


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But I will have, hopefully next year so always interested to get an insight. I don't play professional football so does that preclude me having a view on those threads too? It doesn't matter either way and quite frankly what's it got to do with you? I've as much right to post as the next man thank you
		
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From what I can see those  threads are about supporting a football team and scoring petty points from one another, I'd say you were qualified.

I suppose in your defence you post on the 'I played today' thread when often you haven't. This has echoes of that


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## woody69 (Nov 29, 2015)

It's a load of rubbish. My parents used to take me away at the start of the school year, usually around Oct and I had to take a ton of work with me. As long as it isn't during SATS or their GCSE's I see no issue with it if parents want to take their kids out during term time. The exceptional circumstances get out is open to too much interpretation. They should just insist parents try to take their kids during school holidays where possible, but then allow other weeks during the term so long as it doesn't clash with exams etc and allow a max of 10 days say.


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So that would be a large majority of the forum on a large range of subjects then
		
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Yep, how many of your 47 million posts would be valid if subject knowledge was a precursor


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## Bazzatron (Nov 29, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because it's a forum and I have a right to express my views and hopefully at some point in 2016 we'll be adopting after a long, long process. Is that OK with you and apologies for not running it by you first
		
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Good luck with that Homer, can imagine that's quite a tough and stressful thing to go through.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			But you or I can't talk with any authority on discrimination for example. We know it's wrong, it doesn't sit right with us, but we can definitively say what it feels like. 
Expressing a view on something you have no knowledge of makes you a vacuous bag of wind IMO

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But if the qualification is that you must have direct experience to post them it would be a very empty forum. Yes you can decide to value one persons posts over another, but poor form saying someone's opinion is nonsense as they have not direct knowledge. IMHO.

 Argue against the facts of their opinon, not the right of them to have one.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			From what I can see those  threads are about supporting a football team and scoring petty points from one another, I'd say you were qualified.

I suppose in your defence you post on the 'I played today' thread when often you haven't. This has echoes of that
		
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Whatever. Clearly looking for a bite. I'm done. Think/say what you like.


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

woody69 said:



			It's a load of rubbish. My parents used to take me away at the start of the school year, usually around Oct and I had to take a ton of work with me. As long as it isn't during SATS or their GCSE's I see no issue with it if parents want to take their kids out during term time. The exceptional circumstances get out is open to too much interpretation. They should just insist parents try to take their kids during school holidays where possible, but then allow other weeks during the term so long as it doesn't clash with exams etc and allow a max of 10 days say.
		
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Parental discretion should be allowed. Especially backed up with an other wise good attendance record. I annoys me when the education system hides behind the 'best interests of the child' when all they care about is an ofsted tick. It's sounds a bit twee, but my kids best interests is their job, it's more than that for me. Some of my best childhood memories were on holidays outside of term time.


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## User20205 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			But if the qualification is that you must have direct experience to post them it would be a very empty forum. Yes you can decide to value one persons posts over another, but poor form saying someone's opinion is nonsense as they have not direct knowledge. IMHO.

 Argue against the facts of their opinon, not the right of them to have one.
		
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How can their opinion be factual with no experience??
There's too much googling on this place & not enough understanding


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2015)

therod said:



			Parental discretion should be allowed. Especially backed up with an other wise good attendance record. I annoys me when the education system hides behind the 'best interests of the child' when all they care about is an ofsted tick. It's sounds a bit twee, but my kids best interests is their job, it's more than that for me. Some of my best childhood memories were on holidays outside of term time.
		
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If all parents were nice middle class parents that read to their kids and wanted them to get the best education possible then OK. But in a lot of areas this is not the case. And believe you me, almost every teacher or head has the best interests of kids at heart and desperately want them to be the best they can. And in some cases if that means doing all they can to ensure the kids to come to school, even picking them up themselves at times as has happened at our school, then that is what they do. 

But they also need to be realistic when it comes to the ofsted inspection and have to play the game to some extent.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 29, 2015)

Lets turn this around a bit. Inset days. Surely having them during term time is affecting my children's education.  Teachers/heads already hav far more time off than the average working parent so why cant these days be taken during school holidays?


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## Slab (Nov 30, 2015)

Wont someone please think of the teachers (and in particular those without kids) 

Being forced to take their vacations during every school holiday period! 

Paying top whack prices year after year for their costa break with a fair chance of it being spoilt by screaming kids when they could easily go a week earlier/later and save a packet if only the school head would authorise the absence. 

Surely that's what substitute teachers are for


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## Fish (Nov 30, 2015)

I think the reason for the much higher prices now seen within these strictly allocated school holiday periods is because the remainder of the year and when parents used to take their kids away with them ad hoc spread across the summer & winter those establishments are now much quieter and not full, as such they need to claw back that lost revenue within a shorter period, I can see this clearly when I book the cottages that I stay at across the country which would normally be well booked up in advance but now I can book very easily as the kids are still supposed to be at school, for every cloudy day there's a sunny one somewhere else :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Lets turn this around a bit. Inset days. Surely having them during term time is affecting my children's education.  Teachers/heads already hav far more time off than the average working parent so why cant these days be taken during school holidays?
		
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Don't think of it as kids needing to be there for a certain number of days, but more that they need to be there when the subject is taught. The teachers have planned their work so they are not teaching essential stuff on inset days. The new national curriculum places a lot more emphasis on applying learning. And not just remembering facts then forgetting them. So if becomes even more important that kids keep up. 

Inset days are used for essential whole school training where all the staff can get together for a day without the kids. I'm sure all of us with kids want our teachers to continually learn. Yes they could be done in holiday time, but how many of you would happily give up your holiday time to come to work for training? 

Also some schools lump all the inset days together, usually at the end of the summer holidays, so families can get away for cheaper.


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## Ethan (Nov 30, 2015)

The proposition is that missing school adversely affects achievement. That sounds reasonable on face value, but if you break it down a bit, it means that chronic truants are likely to do badly. But that isn't just because of the truancy. Parents who tolerate that, or raise kids who are likely to do that, are the same parents who contribute very little to their kids education in the home setting, don't worry about homework etc. It is more complicated than the simplistic association that Governments like. This line is fed to the governors too. 

But the same clearly doesn't apply to otherwise diligent parents who want to get a jump of a few days on holiday. At my kids school, the last few days before end of term don't have much actual content, mostly playing and winding down. 

The real agenda is the OFSTED targets for attendance that schools have to meet and which can affect ratings. Schools are therefore exercising their so-called "reasonable discretion" within that. If Tarquin's parents want to take him out a few days early because the snow at Gstaad is declining fast, Â£60 is nothing to them. But if little Jake's parents want to do the same because the prices in Pontins go up too, that means a bit more to them.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 30, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes they could be done in holiday time, but how many of you would happily give up your holiday time to come to work for training?
		
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Obviously I wouldn't, but then again I don't get 13 weeks a year holiday!



Hacker Khan said:



			Also some schools lump all the inset days together, usually at the end of the summer holidays, so families can get away for cheaper.
		
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I saw a news piece the other day about a school that did this in June, so they could go away before the summer holiday price increase hit. Thought it was a very good idea, if we must have inset days then this is the way forward.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 30, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			I saw a news piece the other day about a school that did this in June, so they could go away before the summer holiday price increase hit. Thought it was a very good idea, if we must have inset days then this is the way forward.
		
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If all schools did the same then effectively the school holidays start a week earlier and so do the higher prices due to higher demand.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 30, 2015)

Thats why they did it in June, a random week in the middle of a term


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 30, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Thats why they did it in June, a random week in the middle of a term
		
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Ah! I'd assumed it was the last week before the summer hols.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Obviously I wouldn't, but then again I don't get 13 weeks a year holiday!


I saw a news piece the other day about a school that did this in June, so they could go away before the summer holiday price increase hit. *Thought it was a very good idea, if we must have inset days then this is the way forward*.
		
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Mmmm, as a school governor I am not convinced. Inset days are there for the staff to perform CPD, they are not intended as an opportunity for some families to have a cheap week in Terremolinos.  I am sure some parents would welcome the fact they can pay less for a week in the sun, but if they knew it could potentially come at the cost of their child's teachers not being up to date with everything they need to know to ensure their Johnny gets the best education possible then they may reconsider. Hopefully.  

The government and DFE crap out initiative after initiative all the time throughout the school year, and in my opinion any half decent school needs to have inset days spread out, not all in one lump, to process and incorporate these. 

As for the the long holidays of teachers then no one can deny that they do get that.  But if long holidays is such a deal breaker for people then become a teacher.  It is one of the hardest jobs there is, having a massive say on the the future life chances of kids in your hands. A job in which so many people have an opinion and seem to feel the need to constantly interfere, from parents to the local authority to governors to the government to uncle tom cobley and all.  And the principal should be the same for anyone, your holiday is your entitlement and part of your contract, so you are paid on that basis. And changes to that will need your contract to be renegotiated.


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