# If you're rubbish at golf.............



## bobmac (Jul 7, 2015)

..........do you still expect to be able to win a major comp at your club?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

I would argue not 'expect', but due to the handicap system, be at least on a vaguely level playing field when you tee off on the first.


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## Slab (Jul 7, 2015)

Could you put a handicap figure on 'rubbish'?

(serious question)


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## pokerjoke (Jul 7, 2015)

I don't believe they would as I never did,all I was trying to do was beat my best score.

To win a major comp I would expect I would have to play my best ever round,or very close to.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 7, 2015)

Suppose it depends on what you define as rubbish. I am pretty sure low handicap players look at me and think I am rubbish. I am by no means good, but I do expect at some point I can win a club comp. Probably much to the disdain of the low handicap players that think I'm a bit rubbish.


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## matt71 (Jul 7, 2015)

nope not got a prayer ! The only chance I have  if I suddenly come awesome but also the weather plays to my strength!


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2015)

Slab said:



			Could you put a handicap figure on 'rubbish'?

(serious question)
		
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No, I've left that up to you to decide


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## Paul77 (Jul 7, 2015)

I've only just joined my club. My father in law has his name on a trophy in the clubhouse from the 80's. I want my name on it to. I will just keep trying until that day  I'll be rubbish up till then I guess.


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## Slab (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			No, I've left that up to you to decide
		
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Ok, well I'm rubbish compared to you but a good player compared to this lad I played with a few weeks back 

But no I've no expectation to win anything major but the way its worded if the handicap system is working as designed I should at least have hope & an opportunity (i.e 'be able' ) to win providing I met the entry criteria 

Although pretty obvious that regardless of handicap if you're playing rubbish then no one should expect to win


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## louise_a (Jul 7, 2015)

They wont win scratch competitions but anyone with an accurate handicap is capable of winning a handicap comp.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2015)

louise_a said:



			They wont win scratch competitions but anyone with an accurate handicap is capable of winning a handicap comp.
		
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And anyone with an inaccurate handicap has an even better chance!


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## JamesR (Jul 7, 2015)

louise_a said:



			They wont win scratch competitions but anyone with an accurate handicap is capable of winning a handicap comp.
		
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Sums it up for me - you may be rubbish but able to play to a handicap (especially if they increase the limits).


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## NWJocko (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm pretty rubbish at this game (often worse!!)

I'm nowhere near good enough to win any scratch comps and also don't think I have a low enough round in me to win a handicap one.

It doesn't particularly bother me tbh, don't play for winning comps.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2015)

No. I play to improve my handicap, failed, and hit some good shots for myself.

I have played in teams that have won Texas Scrambles. Even then it is only by the 14th that I start thinking about winning. I start every comp trying to hit good shots only, not thinking about winning.

I came late to golf. I played other sports before then and wanted to win EVERY match I played in then. I am not particularly good at golf so rather than have false expectations and beat myself up when it doesn't come off I have a different mindset for golf. Alien to many on this forum but will be recognisable to some still.


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## Snelly (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			..........do you still expect to be able to win a major comp at your club?
		
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No.


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## chellie (Jul 7, 2015)

No, I do not expect to win. I try to do my best every time I have a card in my hand but that usually fails. Prior to golf have not played any competitive sports since junior school so a long time ago and took up golf too late in life. Am only interested in my gross score anyway.

Oh, and I'd love to play off 5 and be as rubbish as Iain


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## garyinderry (Jul 7, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would argue not 'expect', but due to the handicap system, be at least on a vaguely level playing field when you tee off on the first.
		
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I may be wrong but the handicap system is there to level the scores up at the end, not the start.  On the first tee everyone starts with the same score.


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## Slab (Jul 7, 2015)

Why are folks paying a comp fee if youâ€™re not even able to win?


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm not scratch or better, yet.

i'm not a pro.

so yes I'm rubbish at golf unfortunately.


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## NWJocko (Jul 7, 2015)

Slab said:



			Why are folks paying a comp fee if youâ€™re not even able to win?
		
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Handicap

Might win or place in my division

2's money

Game with mates on a Saturday

Just to be out playing golf

If you play solely for winning comps surely you'll be disappointed a lot of the time unless you play in a very small club!?

150 odd every week in our comps, some going to win consistently there....


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## matt71 (Jul 7, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No. I play to improve my handicap, failed, and hit some good shots for myself.

I have played in teams that have won Texas Scrambles. Even then it is only by the 14th that I start thinking about winning. I start every comp trying to hit good shots only, not thinking about winning.

I came late to golf. I played other sports before then and wanted to win EVERY match I played in then. I am not particularly good at golf so rather than have false expectations and beat myself up when it doesn't come off I have a different mindset for golf. Alien to many on this forum but will be recognisable to some still.
		
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Lord Tyrion you could have described me then! 100% spot on with everything you have said


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## guest100718 (Jul 7, 2015)

certainly a handicap comp


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## Wabinez (Jul 7, 2015)

Our board comps are normally handicap restricted...so someone from say, 24-28 (comps are limited to 20 I believe), are automatically at a disadvantage, and I would say they would not be able to.  Those off 20/21/22/23 do stand a chance, as they wouldn't lose so many shots in the first instance, however, will still need to play a few below to win.  It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I may be wrong but the handicap system is there to level the scores up at the end, not the start.  On the first tee everyone starts with the same score.
		
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What I meant was the handicap system is there to make it a level playing field as much as it can.  So when you tee off as a high handicapper you don't expect to win, but know you have a chance of winning if you have a worldy.  As opposed to knowing that you have no chance of winning 99.999% of the time, as many others are clearly much better players if you use the gross number of shots they take.  So without a handicap system you would beat me on gross strokeplay every time.  But with a handicap system I would have a chance.


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## Keeno (Jul 7, 2015)

Our only Board Comp is the Clubby, you can't win that if your rubbish.

Our main medals are in 4 divisions Scratch, Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3.  Prizes for all so pretty fair.


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## Slab (Jul 7, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Handicap

Might win or place in my division

2's money

Game with mates on a Saturday

Just to be out playing golf

*If you play solely for winning comps surely you'll be disappointed a lot of the time unless you play in a very small club!?*

150 odd every week in our comps, some going to win consistently there....
		
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I don't enter to win, I don't expect to win, but Bobs question was "do you still expect *to be able* to win"... why pay the extra fee if I'm not even able to win! 

The reverse is that I'd be excluded from winning (or unable to win)


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## bigslice (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			..........do you still expect to be able to win a major comp at your club?
		
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yes


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2015)

Slab said:



			Why are folks paying a comp fee if youâ€™re not even able to win?
		
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Because that is the only way to get a h/c cut. I would prefer to play and not pay a fee but those are the rules.

On a similar theme I always resented, on away trips, paying into the longest drive competition because I would only ever win that if everyone else duck hooked. That was never going to happen and so it was an irritating waste of money. I played a captain's day two weeks ago where this was replaced by a nearest the line drive. A line was painted top to bottom down the centre of the fairway from around 200-300yds. Clever idea.


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## chrisd (Jul 7, 2015)

I've won a few "Gold Letter" comps over the years. 

I've worked really hard on my game since day one and on that special day that the mistakes are few, in a handicap competition, I can win and have done so.


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## turkish (Jul 7, 2015)

I am by every meaning Rubbish(got my 1st cut down to 27.6 LOLZ) at golf but I am going to say to the contrary to every other reply that I expect to win a major comp at my club(albeit Handicapped one)... maybe some will think it's pig headedness but all my life i've been highly competitive so I'll do my darnest to win!!! I think over next 10 years I will have a good chance.

I just need to keep putting in the practice to improve... it's my 1st year and I would say I have drastically but think there's a bit of luck involved too as just need to be on your game on the days you play.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

Nope. If I was rubbish at anything I tried to compete in then I wouldn't expect to win. I'd be out there trying to set my own personal best.

I've never quite got why golf has a handicap system to "level the playing field" but that's a whole new can of worms!


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## Slab (Jul 7, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Because that is the only way to get a h/c cut. I would prefer to play and not pay a fee but those are the rules.

On a similar theme I always resented, on away trips, paying into the longest drive competition because I would only ever win that if everyone else duck hooked. That was never going to happen and so it was an irritating waste of money.* I played a captain's day two weeks ago where this was replaced by a nearest the line drive. A line was painted top to bottom down the centre of the fairway from around 200-300yds.* Clever idea.
		
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Off topic but we've done this a few times for straightest drive, far enough out so that its a wood shot but not too far that only the handfull of bombers have a chance, its much easier to just use a length of string though pegged at each end


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## StrangelyBrown (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			..........do you still expect to be able to win a major comp at your club?
		
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Nope, I don't even enter the "majors". 

I feel that the time is better spent imbibing varying quantities of alcoholic beverages.

However, if I set about a practice routine as enthusiastically as I imbibe I might not be rubbish.


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## jpjeffery (Jul 7, 2015)

No. The handicap system tries to create a level playing field, but it doesn't really work does it?

Win a comp and see your handicap get cut (in a "We can't have that happening again!" kind of way).

Play in a fourball matchplay comp and see your handicap on the day slashed to the bone. Example: I played in a friendly on Sunday but our club had three people drop out so I had to play as a single v two. My official handicap is 25*, but I had to play off six with no allowance for the fact I didn't have a partner! I lost 9&8 (halved just one hole).

Fortunately the two guys I was playing against were excellent company (one was the spitting image of Jose Maria Olazabal), and we played Bingo! Bango! Bongo! over the remaining eight holes.

* When I joined my club and played the three handicap rounds to get my handicap I didn't break 100 in any of those three outings. Our home course is par 69. I was expecting to be given a handicap of 28, maybe 26 at a push. I was given 24!

I guess if you're rubbish at golf, then you're rubbish at golf and don't deserve to win anything anyway. Just don't try to make me believe the levelling effect of the handicap system really works.


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2015)

jpjeffery said:



			No. The handicap system tries to create a level playing field, but it doesn't really work does it?

Win a comp and see your handicap get cut (in a "We can't have that happening again!" kind of way).

Play in a fourball matchplay comp and see your handicap on the day slashed to the bone. Example: I played in a friendly on Sunday but our club had three people drop out so I had to play as a single v two. My official handicap is 25*, but I had to play off six with no allowance for the fact I didn't have a partner! I lost 9&8 (halved just one hole).

Fortunately the two guys I was playing against were excellent company (one was the spitting image of Jose Maria Olazabal), and we played Bingo! Bango! Bongo! over the remaining eight holes.

* When I joined my club and played the three handicap rounds to get my handicap I didn't break 100 in any of those three outings. Our home course is par 69. I was expecting to be given a handicap of 28, maybe 26 at a push. I was given 24!

I guess if you're rubbish at golf, then you're rubbish at golf and don't deserve to win anything anyway. Just don't try to make me believe the levelling effect of the handicap system really works.
		
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was it not diff with the low man, which would mean they got no shots so a an 18 handicaper against you would get no shots and you got 6 seems fair to me


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			was it not diff with the low man, which would mean they got no shots so a an 18 handicaper against you would get no shots and you got 6 seems fair to me
		
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Kind of what I thought! Then again I've played many sports and the better I got the better my chances of winning or being picked etc. I've never expected to win anything unless I was the best player on the day...

Edit - could have been 3/4 of the difference...


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2015)

AmandaJR said:



			Kind of what I thought! Then again I've played many sports and the better I got the better my chances of winning or being picked etc. I've never expected to win anything unless I was the best player on the day...

Edit - could have been 3/4 of the difference...
		
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was thinking about this the other day after playing against a 10 handicap in a knock out, he got shots at the 5 holes i would usually get a shot at in stroke play, so wouldn't it be fairer to give the 5 shots i was giving away on holes i wouldn't be expected to get a shot on???
yep,could have been 3/4 but the opp still would have been getting no shots, can't see what is unfair about that.


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## Keeno (Jul 7, 2015)

jpjeffery said:



			No. The handicap system tries to create a level playing field, but it doesn't really work does it?

Win a comp and see your handicap get cut (in a "We can't have that happening again!" kind of way).

Play in a fourball matchplay comp and see your handicap on the day slashed to the bone. Example: I played in a friendly on Sunday but our club had three people drop out so I had to play as a single v two. My official handicap is 25*, but I had to play off six with no allowance for the fact I didn't have a partner! I lost 9&8 (halved just one hole).

Fortunately the two guys I was playing against were excellent company (one was the spitting image of Jose Maria Olazabal), and we played Bingo! Bango! Bongo! over the remaining eight holes.

* When I joined my club and played the three handicap rounds to get my handicap I didn't break 100 in any of those three outings. Our home course is par 69. I was expecting to be given a handicap of 28, maybe 26 at a push. I was given 24!

*I guess if you're rubbish at golf, then you're rubbish at golf and don't deserve to win anything anyway. Just don't try to make me believe the levelling effect of the handicap system really works*.
		
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This is everything that is wrong with the attitude in golf??  Why not give other runners a head start in the 100 meters against bolt, just to share the gold medals?

Bizarre


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			was thinking about this the other day after playing against a 10 handicap in a knock out, he got shots at the 5 holes i would usually get a shot at in stroke play, s*o wouldn't it be fairer to give the 5 shots i was giving away on holes i wouldn't be expected to get a shot on???*
yep,could have been 3/4 but the opp still would have been getting no shots, can't see what is unfair about that.
		
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Sounds a plan to me :thup:


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## jpjeffery (Jul 7, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			was it not diff with the low man, which would mean they got no shots so a an 18 handicaper against you would get no shots and you got 6 seems fair to me
		
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Yes, it was, but it still felt really harsh, particularly as I was playing on my own! *sniff*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			..........do you still expect to be able to win a major comp at your club?
		
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Taking the fact the word "rubbish" is down to the individual, then yes, absolutely for those I choose to enter.
I wouldn't enter any major club competition if I didn't hope I might play the round of my life and win it.
Plenty of other non-qualifying days and qualifying comps to reduce my handicap. Everytime I play competitive golf I hope I do well, don't see the point of playing a game if you don't give it your best, and all the time having fun.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

Horse racing has managed very well over the years with little moaning, despite the fact around 60% of races involve horses being handicapped to try and give each horse an equal chance of winning.  Then again I suppose that's only because horses don't go on internet forums to moan about it. But I expect in private Seabiscuit was livid.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Horse racing has managed very well over the years with little moaning, despite the fact around 60% of races involve horses being handicapped to try and give each horse an equal chance of winning.  Then again I suppose that's only because horses don't go on internet forums to moan about it. But I expect in private Seabiscuit was livid.
		
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Horseracing is the only other sport I can ever think of that penalises those that are good 

I used to compete in running races and triathlon. Seldom with a chance of winning although did manage a couple of wins and some podium finishes. There were always loads who entered knowing full well they hadn't a cat in hell's chance but it didn't stop them. Take the St Neots half marathon. Gets full and in fact over-subscribed with 1500 runners. Of those I'd estimate 20 at most think they might win...

Edit - I really don't give a fig about winning as my battle is with me and the course but the whole handicap thing just doesn't sit right for me...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

AmandaJR said:



			Horseracing is the only other sport I can ever think of that penalises those that are good 

I used to compete in running races and triathlon. Seldom with a chance of winning although did manage a couple of wins and some podium finishes. There were always loads who entered knowing full well they hadn't a cat in hell's chance but it didn't stop them. Take the St Neots half marathon. Gets full and in fact over-subscribed with 1500 runners. Of those I'd estimate 20 at most think they might win...
		
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I'd argue that's a slightly mismatched comparison as a big reason why people enter half marathons and triathlons is a personal sense of achievement, to get fit and of course to beat their personal best.  The winning of the thing is not any most peoples radar as they are just about mostly all doing it for other reasons.  

Where as in golf comps, whilst beating your personal best is always an aim, a lot of golfers are slightly to very competitive people, who want to win it.  And I imagine that if they knew that they had very little to no chance of winning it then their enthusiasm would wain a fair bit.  I do get that is seems slightly unfair on a 2 handicapper to lose a comp to a 22 handicapper who has hit more shots, but that is kind of the deal everyone accepted when they got into amateur golf.  Better the devil you know and all that.


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## Snelly (Jul 7, 2015)

Real Tennis has a very good handicapping system that works brilliantly.

http://www.outc.org.uk/Handicaps.html


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue that's a slightly mismatched comparison as a big reason why people enter half marathons and triathlons is a personal sense of achievement, to get fit and of course to beat their personal best.  The winning of the thing is not any most peoples radar as they are just about mostly all doing it for other reasons.  

Where as in golf comps, whilst beating your personal best is always an aim, a lot of golfers are slightly to very competitive people, who want to win it.  And I imagine that if they knew that they had very little to no chance of winning it then their enthusiasm would wain a fair bit.  I do get that is seems slightly unfair on a 2 handicapper to lose a comp to a 22 handicapper who has hit more shots, but that is kind of the deal everyone accepted when they got into amateur golf.  Better the devil you know and all that.
		
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Not sure I agree but can only speak from personal experience. A PB in golf is the same as a PB in other sports surely? The same sense of personal achivement is gained. Agree though it is what it is. Played my first county match yesterday - 18 holes foursomes and 18 holes singles. Loved the simplicity and "purity" of it. Someone later told me she'd lost but at least had eagled the 6th. When I realised what hole the 6th was I realised both me and my opponent lipped out for eagles but at the time it was irrelevant and I was totally unaware of it. Par of the hole was irrelevant. Stroke Index was irrelevant...just me trying to take less shots than her and vice versa.

So good not to hear "that's a 4 nett 3" :clap:


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

AmandaJR said:



			Not sure I agree but can only speak from personal experience. A PB in golf is the same as a PB in other sports surely? The same sense of personal achivement is gained. Agree though it is what it is. Played my first county match yesterday - 18 holes foursomes and 18 holes singles. Loved the simplicity and "purity" of it. Someone later told me she'd lost but at least had eagled the 6th. When I realised what hole the 6th was I realised both me and my opponent lipped out for eagles but at the time it was irrelevant and I was totally unaware of it. Par of the hole was irrelevant. Stroke Index was irrelevant...just me trying to take less shots than her and vice versa.

So good not to hear "that's a 4 nett 3" :clap:
		
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And that's fine. But you are probably in the best 1% of golfers in this country you are at county level. So fair play for that.  But golf is pretty unique in that people can be competitive for a long time and also there is a pretty accurate way of measuring your ability.  Where as in the vast majority of other sports the older you get the worse you get, and hardly any other amateur sports have a system where your ability is so easily gauged. So in the vast majority of other sports people are split by sex and age, with the intention being that by doing this it makes it a fairer contest. But although golf splits by sex, splitting by age would not work in golf, so they use the handicap system to further level the playing field.

So I'd argue it so not the fault of the handicap system as such, but the way it is being implemented. Handicap systems are great for bounce games with mates as it allows everyone to compete.  And basically makes it more fun for bounce games, which is really why the vast majority of amateurs play the game.  And if a club has a large number of low handicap golfers that are regularly getting beaten by high handicappers having a worldy, then why can't the club make sure the vast majority of comps are done in categories? So one prize for the 20 plus handicappers, one for the 10 to 20 etc etc.  And you also have more scratch comps which I totally agree is the purer form.  So in that way a 22 handicapper shooting 86 does not win a comp over a 2 handicapper shooting 72.  

So don't get rid of the handicap system but utilise it better, innovate and come up with new and fairer ways to make it work for all.  After all, golf clubs are synonymous with innovation and modernising, so not sure what's holding them up.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			And that's fine. But you are probably in the best 1% of golfers in this country you are at county level. So fair play for that.  But golf is pretty unique in that people can be competitive for a long time and also there is a pretty accurate way of measuring your ability.  Where as in the vast majority of other sports the older you get the worse you get, and hardly any other amateur sports have a system where your ability is so easily gauged. So in the vast majority of other sports people are split by sex and age, with the intention being that by doing this it makes it a fairer contest. But although golf splits by sex, splitting by age would not work in golf, so they use the handicap system to further level the playing field.

So I'd argue it so not the fault of the handicap system as such, but the way it is being implemented. Handicap systems are great for bounce games with mates as it allows everyone to compete.  And basically makes it more fun for bounce games, which is really why the vast majority of amateurs play the game.  And if a club has a large number of low handicap golfers that are regularly getting beaten by high handicappers having a worldy, then why can't the club make sure the vast majority of comps are done in categories? So one prize for the 20 plus handicappers, one for the 10 to 20 etc etc.  And you also have more scratch comps which I totally agree is the purer form.  So in that way a 22 handicapper shooting 86 does not win a comp over a 2 handicapper shooting 72.  

So don't get rid of the handicap system but utilise it better, innovate and come up with new and fairer ways to make it work for all.  After all, golf clubs are synonymous with innovation and modernising, so not sure what's holding them up.

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You need to get a job at the R&A :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2015)

I don't really buy into the notion that competitive people need the handicap system to make golf fulfilling. I'm pretty competitive and all I ever felt when "beating" someone by virtue of a higher handicap was/is embarrassment. Hence I work hard at it, have improved and realise there is a lot of scope for further improvement.

Scratch golf is competitive sport, handicap golf is an enjoyable pastime and there is room for both to coexist.


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Scratch golf is competitive sport, handicap golf is an enjoyable pastime and there is room for both to coexist.
		
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When I started playing golf back in the 1800s, virtually all the prizes were gross with a token prize (usually a new Dunlop 65) for best nett.
When I stopped playing club golf in 2004, the roles had reversed to the point that some clubs didn't have a gross prize.
I love the fact that handicaps exist for friendlies and bounce games but when the prizes get so good that people are winning holidays, sets of irons etc, it can sometimes encourage people to massage their h/caps.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

AmandaJR said:



			You need to get a job at the R&A :thup:
		
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Believe you me I've tried.  But they didn't take kindly to my suggestion on how to improve the Open presentation by dumping people like Sir General Awfulspeech GinandTonic, together with rest of the nasty blazer brigade and they modernise.  Maybe get Nick Grimshaw in from the Radio 1 breakfast show to do it, he can give a shout out to the greenkeepers if he needs to.  And and try some golf themed onesies or something like that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			And that's fine. But you are probably in the best 1% of golfers in this country you are at county level. So fair play for that.  But golf is pretty unique in that people can be competitive for a long time and also there is a pretty accurate way of measuring your ability.  Where as in the vast majority of other sports the older you get the worse you get, and hardly any other amateur sports have a system where your ability is so easily gauged. So in the vast majority of other sports people are split by sex and age, with the intention being that by doing this it makes it a fairer contest. But although golf splits by sex, splitting by age would not work in golf, so they use the handicap system to further level the playing field.

So I'd argue it so not the fault of the handicap system as such, but the way it is being implemented. Handicap systems are great for bounce games with mates as it allows everyone to compete.  And basically makes it more fun for bounce games, which is really why the vast majority of amateurs play the game.  And if a club has a large number of low handicap golfers that are regularly getting beaten by high handicappers having a worldy, then why can't the club make sure the vast majority of comps are done in categories? So one prize for the 20 plus handicappers, one for the 10 to 20 etc etc.  And you also have more scratch comps which I totally agree is the purer form.  So in that way a 22 handicapper shooting 86 does not win a comp over a 2 handicapper shooting 72.  

So don't get rid of the handicap system but utilise it better, innovate and come up with new and fairer ways to make it work for all.  After all, golf clubs are synonymous with innovation and modernising, so not sure what's holding them up.

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Well said &#128077;&#127995;


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## Bazzatron (Jul 7, 2015)

Wish I was as rubbish as some of these 10 handicappers


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

Slab said:



			Why are folks paying a comp fee if youâ€™re not even able to win?
		
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Handicap. Winning has never been important to me because I know that the odds of doing so in handicap comps are pretty slim.

If I get in the buffer I'm happy, if I get cut I'm very happy. I'd rather finish 10th and have the lowest gross score than first and have the 10th lowest gross score.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf back in the 1800s, virtually all the prizes were gross with a token prize (usually a new Dunlop 65) for best nett.
When I stopped playing club golf in 2004, the roles had reversed to the point that some clubs didn't have a gross prize.
I love the fact that handicaps exist for friendlies and bounce games but when the prizes get so good that people are winning holidays, sets of irons etc, it can sometimes encourage people to massage their h/caps.
		
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like I have always said Bob, the handicap system rewards people for average golf. Sure it is what makes club golf what it is but it also allows people to win without putting any effort in.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

Bazzatron said:



			Wish I was as rubbish as some of these 10 handicappers 

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The way I've been playing of late, I wish I was as rubbish as you


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2015)

At my club there are too many honours board comps which everyone can enter. What I would like to see is those comps split into smaller handicap groups played off scratch. So one event is for handicaps 5 and under played off scratch whilst another is for handicaps 15 to 20 played off scratch. That gives a slight advantage that is not insurmountable to the better golfer in each group, it encourages improvement as you aim to qualify for more prestgious events and it makes sure that there are events that everyone can compete in. It just means that not everyone can enter every event as they can at the moment but they should have a better chance in the ones they can compete in.


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## Snelly (Jul 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't really buy into the notion that competitive people need the handicap system to make golf fulfilling. I'm pretty competitive and all I ever felt when "beating" someone by virtue of a higher handicap was/is embarrassment. Hence I work hard at it, have improved and realise there is a lot of scope for further improvement.

Scratch golf is competitive sport, handicap golf is an enjoyable pastime and there is room for both to coexist.
		
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I completely agree with you.  Excellent post.


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## Snelly (Jul 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf back in the 1800s, virtually all the prizes were gross with a token prize (usually a new Dunlop 65) for best nett.
When I stopped playing club golf in 2004, the roles had reversed to the point that some clubs didn't have a gross prize.
I love the fact that handicaps exist for friendlies and bounce games but when the prizes get so good that people are winning holidays, sets of irons etc, it can sometimes encourage people to massage their h/caps.
		
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Another fantastic post.  Wise words.  I recall those days too. 

The days when a high handicap had something of a stigma attached to it and you did all you could to improve.  Seems like a world away now.


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## Snelly (Jul 7, 2015)

And additionally, a few people on this thread have asked for qualification of the term "rubbish" in terms of a handicap golfer. 

My personal experience is that when I was given my first handicap of 22 in 1982, I knew I was rubbish, even though I was just a kid.  Utterly useless.  Couldn't hit a driver, regular took the wrong shot option, had no distance with my long or mid irons, duffed chips regularly and had no idea if I was going to get a putt in or not.   I was 11 years old and using equipment that is a world away from todays game improvement gear.  Knackered Jack Nicklaus blades if you must know. 

However, from day 1, I was included in all junior get togethers and during these, I got drawn to play with 13-16 year olds that were reasonable players who could do everything pretty well.  I also played three times a week with my Grandpa who even into his sixties, was a Cat 1 player.   This stark difference between their games and my pathetic efforts really hammered home how far I had to go but I knew that if they could do it then surely, so could I. 

I got there too in the end but it was thousands of hours of effort and really didn't consist of much more than copying what they did and stopping doing the things that cost me shots.  Golf is not a fast game to learn.   But just because it takes time doesn't necessarily mean that it is that difficult. 

So in summary, I would say that someone who is 22 handicap or worse is absolutely rubbish at golf.  This was me once and I knew I was of a very poor standard but I accepted it and realised I had to improve.   To me, even at that age, being given a prize for that level of ineptitude was ridiculous and a total embarrassment.  This was exactly how I felt when I won a medal at this handicap.  Mortified at a nett 58 but hugely relieved at the massive cut the comp sec dished out the next day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			like I have always said Bob, the handicap system rewards people for average golf. Sure it is what makes club golf what it is but it also allows people to win without putting any effort in.
		
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So someone who is striving to improve and puts into practise everything they are trying to learn brings it together in a qualifying comp, gets a cut and maybe wins is possibly putting no effort in?
Or are you saying the people who win without effort are cheating or is the rest of the field not trying?
Surely the handicap system also allows people to gauge improvement while putting a great deal of effort in?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

Snelly said:



			And additionally, a few people on this thread have asked for qualification of the term "rubbish" in terms of a handicap golfer. 

My personal experience is that when I was given my first handicap of 22 in 1982, I knew I was rubbish, even though I was just a kid.  Utterly useless.  Couldn't hit a driver, regular took the wrong shot option, had no distance with my long or mid irons, duffed chips regularly and had no idea if I was going to get a putt in or not.   I was 11 years old and using equipment that is a world away from todays game improvement gear.  Knackered Jack Nicklaus blades if you must know. 

However, from day 1, I was included in all junior get togethers and during these, I got drawn to play with 13-16 year olds that were reasonable players who could do everything pretty well.  I also played three times a week with my Grandpa who even into his sixties, was a Cat 1 player.   This stark difference between their games and my pathetic efforts really hammered home how far I had to go but I knew that if they could do it then surely, so could I. 

I got there too in the end but it was thousands of hours of effort and really didn't consist of much more than copying what they did and stopping doing the things that cost me shots.  Golf is not a fast game to learn.   But just because it takes time doesn't necessarily mean that it is that difficult. 

So in summary, I would say that someone who is 22 handicap or worse is absolutely rubbish at golf.  This was me once and I knew I was of a very poor standard but I accepted it and realised I had to improve.   To me, even at that age, being given a prize for that level of ineptitude was ridiculous and a total embarrassment.  This was exactly how I felt when I won a medal at this handicap.  Mortified at a nett 58 but hugely relieved at the massive cut the comp sec dished out the next day.
		
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Are you not being harsh to yourself and others? What is rubbish to you maybe the summit for some.
I would say I was rubbish compared to a single figure golfer, but does that make them rubbish compared to a golfer on the challenge tour?
Rubbish to me is waste and to categorize someone as rubbish is the wrong terminology.
Totally agree scratch Golf is the purest and best form, but think Hackerkhan explained it perfectly further back in this thread.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Another fantastic post.  Wise words.  I recall those days too. 

The days when a high handicap had something of a stigma attached to it and you did all you could to improve.  Seems like a world away now.
		
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Is it a good thing having a stigma against anyone who has taken the game up, or do not have the time to put into it to get much better, or just enjoys hacking it round for a bit of fun with a few mates?  Totally agree that these types should not really be winning lots of comps, but do you really want a game in which their is a stigma against these types?  As that's hardly going to do much to change the perception some people have about the game.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So someone who is striving to improve and puts into practise everything they are trying to learn brings it together in a qualifying comp, gets a cut and maybe wins is possibly putting no effort in?
Or are you saying the people who win without effort are cheating or is the rest of the field not trying?
Surely the handicap system also allows people to gauge improvement while putting a great deal of effort in?
		
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I'm saying that the handicap system, while doing all the things you say, also allows people who have no will or desire to practice to have a comfortable handicap that allows them to compete with those who do put the effort in and thus get rewarded for average/poor golf.

The handicap system is both good and bad


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm saying that the handicap system, while doing all the things you say, also allows people who have no will or desire to practice to have a comfortable handicap that allows them to compete with those who do put the effort in and thus get rewarded for average/poor golf.

The handicap system is both good and bad
		
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Agree with the sentiment, just feel the quality of the other entrants must be dire if someone playing average/poor golf is rewarded.


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## PuttPuttSteve (Jul 7, 2015)

Paul77 said:



			I've only just joined my club. My father in law has his name on a trophy in the clubhouse from the 80's. I want my name on it to. I will just keep trying until that day  I'll be rubbish up till then I guess.
		
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According to GameGolf, you're not rubbish at all!  +9 for 18 holes recently is definitely not rubbish!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Agree with the sentiment, just feel the quality of the other entrants must be dire if someone playing average/poor golf is rewarded.
		
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An 18 h'capper scoring 40 points and wins has shot in the mid 80s, that's pretty average


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't really buy into the notion that competitive people need the handicap system to make golf fulfilling. I'm pretty competitive and all I ever felt when "beating" someone by virtue of a higher handicap was/is embarrassment. Hence I work hard at it, have improved and realise there is a lot of scope for further improvement.

Scratch golf is competitive sport, handicap golf is an enjoyable pastime and there is room for both to coexist.
		
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Very well put, I agree.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			An 18 h'capper scoring 40 points and wins has shot in the mid 80s, that's pretty average
		
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They've played to 4 under? How is that average if it's a stableford comp,  unless they're protecting their handicap, would it be average if someone off 5 played to 1 and scred 40 points? but that's another thread


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			They've played to 4 under? How is that average if it's a stableford comp,  unless they're protecting their handicap, would it be average if someone off 5 played to 1 and scred 40 points? but that's another thread
		
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No, they've played to 14 over and won the comp. 14 over is not good golf, it's not bad, but it isn't good - and they won the comp. The handicap system rewards average golf, like I said, not all the time, but often it does and often to people who don't try to improve.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No, they've played to 14 over and won the comp. 14 over is not good golf, it's not bad, but it isn't good - and they won the comp. The handicap system rewards average golf, like I said, not all the time, but often it does and often to people who don't try to improve.
		
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No it's a stableford comp with Handicaps, you know how they work, 
So what your saying is, all clubs should play all comps off scratch?
Because that's the only way you guarantee the lowest shots taken wins.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 7, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			No it's a stableford comp with Handicaps, you know how they work, 
So what your saying is, all clubs should play all comps off scratch?
Because that's the only way you guarantee the lowest shots taken wins.
		
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I didn't say that, I said that the handicap system is good and bad, it is what makes club golf what it is today but it does that largely because it rewards average golf. It gives everyone a chance to win but means the best person rarely does.

Personally I'd happily play off of scratch every week because on the very rare occasion I came out on top I know it's because I was the best on the day. I also know that many people wouldn't enter comps like that.

I would like to see the lowest gross rewarded more often that it currently is.


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## chrisd (Jul 7, 2015)

Without higher handicappers most clubs wouldnt be financially sound enough to exist


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I would like to see the lowest gross rewarded more often that it currently is.
		
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100% agree with this.
I don't think you can blame the Handicap system for the other issues though, it is the people like you mention using it to their advantage and that is down to their integrity.


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## Slab (Jul 8, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Handicap. Winning has never been important to me because I know that the odds of doing so in handicap comps are pretty slim.

If I get in the buffer I'm happy, if I get cut I'm very happy. I'd rather finish 10th and have the lowest gross score than first and have the 10th lowest gross score.
		
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Sorry I meant that unless its for charity or a fundraiser why pay a specific fee for a specific golf competition if you're unable to win it, why not stick to all other games/forms of golf 

Would you pay for a ticket knowing that you are unable to win the raffle (charity aspect aside of course)


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## Slab (Jul 8, 2015)

Would I heck feel embarrassed if I ever won a major handicap comp (regardless of my handicap) 

Thereâ€™s plenty non competition/non handicap comp golf out there if I felt a win in a handicap comp would be embarrassing 

I and every other entrant knew the Condition of Competition and that it would be based on a handicap system 

I think it would be more than a tad disrespectful to the club the competition committee and all my FCâ€™s to feel embarrassed 

On collecting my prize I certainly would not say, thanks to the club for hosting the event but it counts for nought because Iâ€™m embarrassed to win it, to the committee I appreciate your time & effort in organising this comp but you needn't have bothered, Iâ€™m actually embarrassed to be its winner, to my fellow competitors I know you all tried your best but Iâ€™m rubbish and embarrassed that I won  

I absolutely would offer my thanks and say how pleased I was and recognise the scores of the better golfers & the motivation to improve my handicap that their performances gives me


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't expect to win even if I have a good day. The handicap system, and to a certain extent some people's manipulation of it, will ensure I am unlikely to figure on the leader board.

My definition for good is par. If I shoot a level par round I might just sneak onto the leader board. I'm happier shooting a level par round and coming fifth than shooting two over and coming first.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2015)

Slab said:



			Sorry I meant that unless its for charity or a fundraiser why pay a specific fee for a specific golf competition if you're unable to win it, why not stick to all other games/forms of golf 

Would you pay for a ticket knowing that you are unable to win the raffle (charity aspect aside of course)
		
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It's not that I can't win, in a handicap comp anyone can win, I just don't expect to and don't think about it as that isn't my primary reason for playing. I'd happily play scratch comps more often though.


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## Slab (Jul 8, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's not that I can't win, in a handicap comp anyone can win, I just don't expect to and don't think about it as that isn't my primary reason for playing. I'd happily play scratch comps more often though.
		
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Ok I see, Bob's original question didn't ask if you expect to win he asked if you expect to be able to win 

I took that to mean I at least have the opportunity or chance to win and would I then enter if that chance were denied me say if I knew the comp was unfair due to bandits or entry criteria then would I still enter (& I only do that when its for a good cause edit: or if its financially viable to play due to discounts etc)


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

on these type treads there is always talk that without high handicaps clubs would struggle and that people need encouragement and the best way to do this is being able to win. Why?

When i started playing in 2006, i had no idea there even was a handicap system, i just enjoyed playing and wanted to get better. 

I know off a lot of guys that never make any effort to improve and are happy being off a high handicap as they think they can win stuff. i think the current system says  to a fair few, why improve!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			on these type treads there is always talk that without high handicaps clubs would struggle and that people need encouragement and the best way to do this is being able to win. Why?

When i started playing in 2006, i had no idea there even was a handicap system, i just enjoyed playing and wanted to get better. 

*I know off a lot of guys that never make any effort to improve *and are happy being off a high handicap as they think they can win stuff. i think the current system says  to a fair few, why improve!
		
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What do you class as never making the effort?  Bit confused how you know someone is not trying to get better at the game? Are there really people out there who's lives are so shallow that they deliberately ignore any opportunity to improve just so they can win some comp at a golf club?


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## AmandaJR (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			on these type treads there is always talk that without high handicaps clubs would struggle and that people need encouragement and the best way to do this is being able to win. Why?

When i started playing in 2006, i had no idea there even was a handicap system, i just enjoyed playing and wanted to get better. 

I know off a lot of guys that never make any effort to improve and are happy being off a high handicap as they think they can win stuff. i think the current system says  to a fair few, why improve!
		
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Agreed. I just can't see how the handicap system encourages people to take up golf and join clubs - and vice versa. When I played at Wyboston Lakes the club was separate from the course. You bought a season ticket for golf and then, if you chose, joined the club so you had a handicap and played comps. Plenty (probably 50/50) chose just to buy the season ticket and play their golf. I think the same people would join a private club and enjoy the course and social golf without the need for a handicap and comps.

I took up golf as it was a sport I could sustain (running and triathlon kept injuring me!) and enjoyed the challenge. I didn't need a handicap to encourage me...sure it's a measure but no more than that.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2015)

Snelly said:



			And additionally, a few people on this thread have asked for qualification of the term "rubbish" in terms of a handicap golfer. 

My personal experience is that when I was given my first handicap of 22 in 1982, I knew I was rubbish, even though I was just a kid.  Utterly useless.  Couldn't hit a driver, regular took the wrong shot option, had no distance with my long or mid irons, duffed chips regularly and had no idea if I was going to get a putt in or not.   I was 11 years old and using equipment that is a world away from todays game improvement gear.  Knackered Jack Nicklaus blades if you must know. 

However, from day 1, I was included in all junior get togethers and during these, I got drawn to play with 13-16 year olds that were reasonable players who could do everything pretty well.  I also played three times a week with my Grandpa who even into his sixties, was a Cat 1 player.   This stark difference between their games and my pathetic efforts really hammered home how far I had to go but I knew that if they could do it then surely, so could I. 

I got there too in the end but it was thousands of hours of effort and really didn't consist of much more than copying what they did and stopping doing the things that cost me shots.  *Golf is not a fast game to learn.   But just because it takes time doesn't necessarily mean that it is that difficult. *

So in summary, I would say that someone who is 22 handicap or worse is absolutely rubbish at golf.  This was me once and I knew I was of a very poor standard but I accepted it and realised I had to improve.   To me, even at that age, being given a prize for that level of ineptitude was ridiculous and a total embarrassment.  This was exactly how I felt when I won a medal at this handicap.  Mortified at a nett 58 but hugely relieved at the massive cut the comp sec dished out the next day.
		
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But isn't that the whole point of any game being difficult, in that it takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to do it to a half decent standard.  As witnessed by your 1000s of hours of effort


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			What do you class as never making the effort?  Bit confused how you know someone is not trying to get better at the game? Are there really people out there who's lives are so shallow that they deliberately ignore any opportunity to improve just so they can win some comp at a golf club?
		
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yes there are,


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			yes there are,
		
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Well in that case ensure that most comps are split between categories. And the prize for winning the over 20 handicappers comp is golf lessons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2015)

AmandaJR said:



			Agreed. I just can't see how the handicap system encourages people to take up golf and join clubs - and vice versa. When I played at Wyboston Lakes the club was separate from the course. You bought a season ticket for golf and then, if you chose, joined the club so you had a handicap and played comps. Plenty (probably 50/50) chose just to buy the season ticket and play their golf. I think the same people would join a private club and enjoy the course and social golf without the need for a handicap and comps.

I took up golf as it was a sport I could sustain (running and triathlon kept injuring me!) and enjoyed the challenge. I didn't need a handicap to encourage me...sure it's a measure but no more than that.
		
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But without a handicap you can't be competitive, so these people who protect the handicap have to be in the minority.
I get the social element but how do the non handicappers play? They still need a measure or is it always scratch?


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But without a handicap you can't be competitive, so these people who protect the handicap have to be in the minority.
I get the social element but how do the non handicappers play? They still need a measure or is it always scratch?
		
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what about all these people who are not members of clubs?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			what about all these people who are not members of clubs?
		
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Not an issue as these aren't the ones "fiddling" Comps that you're worried about.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			yes there are,
		
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And how do you know these people who are 'not trying' have not actually just 'reached their level'.  As that happens to everyone in the vast majority of amateur sports.  You get to a certain level of competence and, without putting in a significant amount of extra time, effort and or expense which most people can't/won't do, you won't improve much. Yes you may have a 'slightly better than your level' game one day, and the next you may be worse than your usual level. But you basically bob along at that level. 

I think the one problem with the handicap system in golf is that there is an automatic assumption that everyone can and will improve. As you are being accurately measured all the time. And very few other sports have that.  But say for example if there was an equivalent system at football, cricket, badminton etc etc then you'd find that most people get to a certain level and then stop improving.  And it's the same for the vast majority of people that play golf.


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Not an issue as these aren't the ones "fiddling" Comps that you're worried about.
		
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There is, you asked how can you be competitive without a handicap?

There are lots of people who play who are not members of clubs, so don't have handicaps, how are they competitive?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			There is, you asked how can you be competitive without a handicap?

There are lots of people who play who are not members of clubs, so don't have handicaps, how are they competitive?
		
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They make them up based on their average score?  That's what I do with my mates, yes it's not very scientific and open to abuse if we were that way inclined.  But it works fine for us as we are only in a friendly game of golf.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			There is, you asked how can you be competitive without a handicap?

There are lots of people who play who are not members of clubs, so don't have handicaps, how are they competitive?
		
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But they can't enter comps, societies often give own handicaps out, but can't be used in club comps or opens just society days, those players have nowt to do with the OP.


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But they can't enter comps, societies often give own handicaps out, but can't be used in club comps or opens just society days, those players have nowt to do with the OP.[/QUOTE

you asked how you could be competitive without a handicap?
		
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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2015)

patricks148 said:





pauldj42 said:



			But they can't enter comps, societies often give own handicaps out, but can't be used in club comps or opens just society days, those players have nowt to do with the OP.[/QUOTE

you asked how you could be competitive without a handicap?
		
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Yes, but in the context of the thread.
		
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## davemc1 (Jul 8, 2015)

I expected (in myself, wouldn't be so bold to say it out loud) and should of won our club championships. I'd been playing well and was at least 3 shots better than my handicap. I've been playing elsewhere and not at my place, so not had chance to get the handicap down.

I was 1 over net and just 2 shots back after the first day, but this included a 14 on the par 5 ninth. 7 off the tee. Came back in 5/6 under net. Back in contention
no idea what happened the Sunday, played like an absolute crab


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:





patricks148 said:



			Yes, but in the context of the thread.
		
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Im not sure you should be artificially competitive TBH.
		
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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2015)

To me there are 2 forms of competition in golf and I need both. There is the basic me vs the course, looking to get my handicap down etc and that is enjoyable. That said, there is also the me vs the rest of the field, opposition in matchplay etc and that is equally important. I came to golf from rugby and need that direct, face to face competition as well as the more esoteric challenge to improve. The handicap system alllows that form of competition to be enjoyable. Take that away, take away the thought that I may be able to challenge for something and I lose some of my golfing enjoyment. In fact, if there was no handicap system, I suspect that I would go to nomadic golf with a few mates and just play 4 BBB. 

Yes, the ideal would be that you only had people of similar handicaps competing together and then everyone would be in with a chance to compete in their respective groups and everyone would be happy, maybe.


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## seteefeet (Jul 8, 2015)

It's all about context someone off 28 may be considered rubbish by someone off 18, who is in turn considered rubbish by someone off 8 and so on and so on. The winner of any comp should be the one who scores the best in accordance with the rules stated before the comp starts.
Simple


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## Snelly (Jul 8, 2015)

seteefeet said:



			It's all about context someone off 28 may be considered rubbish by someone off 18, who is in turn considered rubbish by someone off 8 and so on and so on. The winner of any comp should be the one who scores the best in accordance with the rules stated before the comp starts.
Simple
		
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No.

18 is ok and 28 is rubbish. 

And it is that simple.


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## seteefeet (Jul 8, 2015)

I'm off 17 and I'm rubbish.
It's the same as football. If you play on a Sunday morning and do not get paid to do it, it's safe to assume that you are rubbish.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 8, 2015)

I'm also off 17(un official)& would class my self as been pretty rubbish tbh. 
But I play to a standard that I can enjoy the game & I don't take it too serious.


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## Spear-Chucker (Jul 8, 2015)

Anybody below 20 is NOT rubbish. You have skills and know how to apply them. Mid/high 20's isn't rubbish either; could be anyone improving or just can't dedicate enough time to the game. The games hard, eh?

Not being able to hit the ball more than 20 yards, THAT'S rubbish.


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## The Gentleman (Jul 8, 2015)

Gotta love the posters who say they are rubbish, yet their signature states a handicap of 5. I'll give you rubbish.


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## Snelly (Jul 8, 2015)

Spear-Chucker said:



			Mid/high 20's isn't rubbish either;
		
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Unusual for me to disagree with your posts but I do here.  28 is chronic. A shot a hole plus ten spare.  That is rubbish in my book.  Absolute tripe.


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## The Gentleman (Jul 9, 2015)

Keeno said:



			This is everything that is wrong with the attitude in golf??  Why not give other runners a head start in the 100 meters against bolt, just to share the gold medals?

Bizarre
		
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I agree. When I play rugby, I don't expect better players to play in socks or with one hand tied behind their backs. Why in golf do good players get penalised for being good. The hackers (of which I am one) need to practise harder, take our medicine when beaten by better players and take said beating as a reason to get better.  I want to win on merit, not by being gifted a win by some archaic form of sportsmanship.


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## Spear-Chucker (Jul 9, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Unusual for me to disagree with your posts but I do here.  28 is chronic. A shot a hole plus ten spare.  That is rubbish in my book.  Absolute tripe.
		
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 Interesting isn't it? Some perspective improves the view - abject beginners are generally rubbish (true for most things) and giving a beginner even two shots a hole against par ain't gonna make for an interesting game as they get ever more red faced racking up 10's and more on holes. To achieve the position where you can use a 28 hcp to gather a few points over the round is showing clear signs of understanding some of the facets of the game. This doesn't resonate with a definition of rubbish.

A comparison: If I were to suddenly take up curling (would love to try this, incidentally) I'd struggle to keep the stones in the postcode to begin with and would have no objection to be described as rubbish. After a few weeks perhaps I could ease a few down to the vicinity of the target and at this point would object loudly to my previous status. I'd still have lots to learn about tactics and the idiosyncrasies of the the game but I'd be on my way so to speak.


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## garyinderry (Jul 9, 2015)

My youngest nephew handed in his three cards and got his handicap yesterday.   Without setting the world on fire he has been given 20. 

They don't muck around in strabane. I asked my older nephew what he was given when started and he said 21. He won his first ever comp and was cut to 12.


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## Imurg (Jul 9, 2015)

The Gentleman said:



			I agree. When I play rugby, I don't expect better players to play in socks or with one hand tied behind their backs. Why in golf do good players get penalised for being good. The hackers (of which I am one) need to practise harder, take our medicine when beaten by better players and take said beating as a reason to get better.  I want to win on merit, not by being gifted a win by some archaic form of sportsmanship.
		
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But then you're grouped into, broadly, similar ability leagues. You won't get Harlequins playing a village team from Norfolk.
Its pointless having one division in any sport.
Separate it up into similar ability groups who then play each other - most clubs do this, most sports do this.
If the comp is a single division one, like many Captain's Day comps and its a handicap comp then the one who plays best relative to handicap wins.
If people don't want to use handicaps they don't have to - just play off scratch.

To answer the OP - if its a handicap comp, anyone with a handicap can expect to be able to win whether they play off 28 or +6 - whether they do or not is another question


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## Slab (Jul 9, 2015)

With cat 1 & cat 4 golfers playing to a shot allowance differential of 1 stroke on many holes, does it mean on any given hole all rubbish golfers are only 1 shot away from being a cat1 standard? (& vice versa )


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## The Gentleman (Jul 9, 2015)

Imurg said:



			But then you're grouped into, broadly, similar ability leagues. You won't get Harlequins playing a village team from Norfolk.
Its pointless having one division in any sport.
Separate it up into similar ability groups who then play each other - most clubs do this, most sports do this.
If the comp is a single division one, like many Captain's Day comps and its a handicap comp then the one who plays best relative to handicap wins.
If people don't want to use handicaps they don't have to - just play off scratch.

To answer the OP - if its a handicap comp, anyone with a handicap can expect to be able to win whether they play off 28 or +6 - whether they do or not is another question
		
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Agree to an extent, but as new to golf I find it hard to get my head around the handicap system. Taking the professional team/golfer out of the equation, there will be times in sport that you/your team are up against a much better team/player (see FA cup) were you don't get an allowance to play against and you get thrashed. But, just maybe you play a blinder and take a scalp. Isn't that how everyone wants to win. Perhaps if a 14 year old is playing an adult in golf should the handicap system come into play, but I for one don't want shot allowances, especially amongst my peer group. 

But as as I say, I am new to golf and perhaps as I play more and start entering comps, my tune will change.


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## Slab (Jul 9, 2015)

The Gentleman said:



			Agree to an extent, but as new to golf I find it hard to get my head around the handicap system. Taking the professional team/golfer out of the equation, there will be times in sport that you/your team are up against a much better team/player (see FA cup) were you don't get an allowance to play against and you get thrashed. But, just maybe you play a blinder and take a scalp. Isn't that how everyone wants to win. Perhaps if a 14 year old is playing an adult in golf should the handicap system come into play, but I for one don't want shot allowances, especially amongst my peer group. 

But as as I say, I am new to golf and perhaps as I play more and start entering comps, my tune will change.
		
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When I started I didnâ€™t want or need a handicap even through my first club membership year but leaving aside whether you want competitive golf or not sooner or later you realise that if you want a game weekend mornings its comps or roll ups that book them out and I wonâ€™t say youâ€™re forced but â€˜funnelledâ€™ through the system of submitted cards etc so that you can play at these popular times

Then you realise how much fun comps can be (due in no small part because everyone is at least able to compete) 

It needs to be said though that the handicap system is important as the thrill of accepting a wupping like a gentleman week after week soon wears off when you're forking out additional comp fees & the side bets every time (& I learned that's a big part of social & comp golf too)



edit: there's a very good reason why football etc don't run FA cup format competitions week after week pitting the minnows against the giants. One or two events all year is pretty much your lot, not that different to golf really but only because of the handicap system


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## GB72 (Jul 9, 2015)

The Gentleman said:



			Agree to an extent, but as new to golf I find it hard to get my head around the handicap system. Taking the professional team/golfer out of the equation, there will be times in sport that you/your team are up against a much better team/player (see FA cup) were you don't get an allowance to play against and you get thrashed. But, just maybe you play a blinder and take a scalp. Isn't that how everyone wants to win. Perhaps if a 14 year old is playing an adult in golf should the handicap system come into play, but I for one don't want shot allowances, especially amongst my peer group. 

But as as I say, I am new to golf and perhaps as I play more and start entering comps, my tune will change.
		
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I played rugby for most of my life. Not only are you divided by abilities by the league that your team is in, you are also divided by the team that you play for within the club. You would not expect the fourth team to take on the first team fixture and that is the equivalent of expecting a mid/high handicapper to play against a cat 1 golfer with no handicap allowance. 

Part of the issue is with the clubs. Certainly at my club most of the comps are in one division and open to all. Saves on administration and, on a more cynical note, saves on having to double or triple the prize fund by having to award the winners in each division. Now if every comp had 3 divisions or if they club decided to make each honours board comp for different handicap groups, all would be fairer. As it stands, we only have one comp for cat 1 and 2 only and one for cat 3 and 4.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 9, 2015)

The Gentleman said:



			Agree to an extent, but as new to golf I find it hard to get my head around the handicap system. Taking the professional team/golfer out of the equation, *there will be times in sport that you/your team are up against a much better team/player (see FA cup) were you don't get an allowance to play against and you get thrashed*. *But, just maybe you play a blinder and take a scalp. Isn't that how everyone wants to win*. Perhaps if a 14 year old is playing an adult in golf should the handicap system come into play, but I for one don't want shot allowances, especially amongst my peer group. 

But as as I say, I am new to golf and perhaps as I play more and start entering comps, my tune will change.
		
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As others have said that is very rare.  As for sport to mean anything it has to be a competitive, in which the outcome of a match/game or competition is not pretty much predetermined. Much as the money men in the sport would want this to be the case nowadays.  See how people quickly get bored with F1 when the same person wins all the time. Yes you can admire the determination and skill needed to get to the stage where you always win, and there is always a thrill in seeing someone like Usain Bolt powering down a track obliterating everyone.  But without proper competition, sport would be a hell of a lot less popular than it is, from both a participation and viewing perspective.  

There will be some that like to pitch their wits against someone a lot better than them all the time, and fair play, some people need that incentive to improve. And there is a great thrill from seeing your team beat a big scalp in a cup competition, I know, I was at Anfield to see the mighty Grimsby Town beat Liverpool, Michael Owen and all, in the league cup many years ago.  But if most of your watching or playing experience consisted of either getting thrashed or watching your team get stuffed, most people would get bored of it pretty quickly.


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## The Gentleman (Jul 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			As others have said that is very rare.  As for sport to mean anything it has to be a competitive, in which the outcome of a match/game or competition is not pretty much predetermined. Much as the money men in the sport would want this to be the case nowadays.  See how people quickly get bored with F1 when the same person wins all the time. Yes you can admire the determination and skill needed to get to the stage where you always win, and there is always a thrill in seeing someone like Usain Bolt powering down a track obliterating everyone.  But without proper competition, sport would be a hell of a lot less popular than it is, from both a participation and viewing perspective.  

There will be some that like to pitch their wits against someone a lot better than them all the time, and fair play, some people need that incentive to improve. And there is a great thrill from seeing your team beat a big scalp in a cup competition, I know, I was at Anfield to see the mighty Grimsby Town beat Liverpool, Michael Owen and all, in the league cup many years ago.  But if most of your watching or playing experience consisted of either getting thrashed or watching your team get stuffed, most people would get bored of it pretty quickly.
		
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I hear what everyone is saying. I think given my newness to the sport and my unjustified male pride/ego (which I need to get over) I will come around to your way of thinking (probably very quickly as I get humped every week). 

Thanks for for taking the time to explain your faith in the handicap system. 

Just off now to play in my sons school golf day - stableford with full handicap. At estimated 28 handicap I get a huge amount of shots, but if them the rules, I would be a fool not to accept graciously.


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