# Bandits/Cheats/Good Days and Bad



## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2018)

Reading numerous threads about changes to the handicap upper limit and the affect these will have on comps has led me to think about were the biggest handicap risk in comps come from.

IMO, the biggest challenge is playing the golfer in the 10-18 handicap range, this is also the range, IMO, were the biggest bandits live.

9 and below, you know you have to bring your best game.

19 and above, they have the inconsistencey they have to worry about.

I really donâ€™t see anyone genuinely above 28 turning up on more than 4-5 holes.


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## Orikoru (Jan 26, 2018)

I agree. The most common comp winners at my place seem to be guys off of 11-14 who are obviously capable of having a fantastic round they just don't do that on a consistent basis. There's usually one of them who turns up on the day and hits a 6 over gross to win it.

Edit: for clarity, I wasn't agreeing that people in this range are bandits, just that the most winners seem to come from here.:thup:


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## HankMarvin (Jan 26, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Reading numerous threads about changes to the handicap upper limit and the affect these will have on comps has led me to think about were the biggest handicap risk in comps come from.

IMO, the biggest challenge is playing the golfer in the 10-18 handicap range, this is also the range, IMO, were the biggest bandits live.

9 and below, you know you have to bring your best game.

19 and above, they have the inconsistencey they have to worry about.

I really donâ€™t see anyone genuinely above 28 turning up on more than 4-5 holes.
		
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Do you class yourself as a bandit/cheat ?

Rather strange thing to say that players in this bracket might be cheats.


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## Coffey (Jan 26, 2018)

I agree with this too.

I am playing off 15 and I know I have the ability to shoot beneath that but it just hasn't happened in a comp yet.

But I am taking lessons every month and try to get to the range at least once a week. During the summer I am on the course nearly every evening. So I wouldn't say I am a cheat or a bandit as I am practicing and trying to get the handicap down. So if I do win a comp and get cut then I guess my hard work is starting to pay off.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2018)

HankMarvin said:



			Do you class yourself as a bandit/cheat ?

Rather strange thing to say that players in this bracket might be cheats.
		
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Also put good days and bad days.

I certainly believe I can play to 6 or 26 on any given day.

Those who are rumoured on here to fix their handicaps in national comps live in this category.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 26, 2018)

Looking at it from a different perspective will get you the same answer.

There's little kudos or stigma associatednwith any handicap between about 8 and 18 (possibly a touch around single figures) so there is little by way of natural pressure to get a better handicap.

All this means is that you are more likely to find someone in that range who's more concerned about winning than lowering their handicap.

This can translate into consciously massaging their handicap to improve their chances of winning (cheating) and unconsciously doing it (bandit).

If the gap between handicap and capability gets too large the latter will, eventually, find himself winning, or just cut, in Q events whilst the former probably won't be playing in one!


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## NorwichBanana (Jan 26, 2018)

Coffey said:



			I agree with this too.

I am playing off 15 and I know I have the ability to shoot beneath that but it just hasn't happened in a comp yet.

But I am taking lessons every month and try to get to the range at least once a week. During the summer I am on the course nearly every evening. So I wouldn't say I am a cheat or a bandit as I am practicing and trying to get the handicap down. So if I do win a comp and get cut then I guess my hard work is starting to pay off.
		
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Stick at it! During the summer evenings do you play on the course, or practice at a chipping area/putting?


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## Coffey (Jan 26, 2018)

NorwichBanana said:



			Stick at it! During the summer evenings do you play on the course, or practice at a chipping area/putting?
		
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So last year it was all on the course when I could but this was because my club didn't have any practice facilities.

I have joined a new course this year for that exact reason so I will be trying to mix it up a bit more this year with a few evenings on the practice ground and a few evenings squeezing in a few holes.


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## NorwichBanana (Jan 26, 2018)

Coffey said:



			So last year it was all on the course when I could but this was because my club didn't have any practice facilities.

I have joined a new course this year for that exact reason so I will be trying to mix it up a bit more this year with a few evenings on the practice ground and a few evenings squeezing in a few holes.
		
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Without 'bragging as such' in 2016 I played all summer long on the course, never improved a bit. Stayed at 21 hc all year.
Last year I practiced on chipping area, putting green, driving range (one area a night) and then had maybe 2 or 4 holes at the end just to see how it worked in real life course situations.....numerous times walked in level par or 1 over. Last year my handicap dropped from 21 to 8.  Practice on the same thing over and over is better than playing on the course IMO! Stick at it, Single Figures awaits !
w


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## Coffey (Jan 26, 2018)

NorwichBanana said:



			Without 'bragging as such' in 2016 I played all summer long on the course, never improved a bit. Stayed at 21 hc all year.
Last year I practiced on chipping area, putting green, driving range (one area a night) and then had maybe 2 or 4 holes at the end just to see how it worked in real life course situations.....numerous times walked in level par or 1 over. Last year my handicap dropped from 21 to 8.  Practice on the same thing over and over is better than playing on the course IMO! Stick at it, Single Figures awaits !
w
		
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Wow well done! that is some drop.

I am hoping for similar results. Hoping to spend a lot of time around the pitching and chipping area to really improve this part of my game.


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## r0wly86 (Jan 26, 2018)

In medals I agree that mid teen handicappers have the best opportunity to win, as they are often capable of single figure scores on the right day.

In stablefords my experience is that the higher handicappers tend to win, new golfer around the 26-28 handicap that often win. This is where bandits start, as they have improved much quicker than their handicap has fallen which is often the case for new golfers as they get more consistent.

The reason why they win stablefords is because 26-28 handicappers will often have 1-3 massive blow ups, like 8s or 9s which in medals puts them out of contention but easily recoverable in stablefords.

As for those who artificially keep there handicaps high in order to win competitions they should be banned from winning any prizes


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## jim8flog (Jan 26, 2018)

Judging from our competition divisions, Div 2 11-15 is certainly the most populated/concentrated area of handicaps and is probably the hardest division to win.

It is very rare to see the division won by someone playing to their handicap which can be seen reasonably often in Div 1.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2018)

I don't really worry. I play, try to do my best and see where I end up and if I get a cut. If someone else comes in and wins then fair enough. The handicap usually catches up in the end


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 26, 2018)

NorwichBanana said:



			Without 'bragging as such' in 2016 I played all summer long on the course, never improved a bit. Stayed at 21 hc all year.
Last year I practiced on chipping area, putting green, driving range (one area a night) and then had maybe 2 or 4 holes at the end just to see how it worked in real life course situations.....numerous times walked in level par or 1 over. Last year my handicap dropped from 21 to 8.  Practice on the same thing over and over is better than playing on the course IMO! Stick at it, Single Figures awaits !
w
		
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Thats awesome well done .
This is the correct way to do it .
you must work on the weak parts of your game but donâ€™t neglect the rest .
I practice for an hour then play nine .
If I donâ€™t pull off the shots I just practiced =no pudding after my tea !
That last bit was a lie!


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## Dasit (Jan 26, 2018)

Coffey said:



			I agree with this too.

I am playing off 15 and I know I have the ability to shoot beneath that but it just hasn't happened in a comp yet.

But I am taking lessons every month and try to get to the range at least once a week. During the summer I am on the course nearly every evening. So I wouldn't say I am a cheat or a bandit as I am practicing and trying to get the handicap down. So if I do win a comp and get cut then I guess my hard work is starting to pay off.
		
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Up for a friendly handicap challenge this season mate?


I am off the same handicap and getting monthly lessons, hoping to get to singles this season.


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## chrisd (Jan 26, 2018)

I don't think it's anything other than lack of consistency, I'm now off 13 (12.5) but can often par either 9 holes of my course or very occasionally shoot level par gross but equally can get into the 90's without too much trouble. It really just depends what swing ive bought with me on the day.


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## selwood90 (Jan 27, 2018)

Completely agree, I'm off 16.5 currently but on the way have had scores of 8 over gross, 10 over gross. Did bother me at first, people thinking something other than he's having a blinder. But equally I have played with the same people and shot 23 points in a stab and top end of 90 in medals. 

Can't say iv ever played with anyone and thought what a bandit/cheat maybe I'm lucky


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## jusme (Jan 27, 2018)

People, both on the course and on forums are quick to jump to nasty conclusions. There are indeed bandits and cheats out there and shame on them, but I'm very cautious to name anyone as such. Most golfers are seeking to improve, therefore it should never be a shock when an improving golfer shoots below or way below their handicap. The handicap will catch up with them. 

Must always know the difference between an improving golfer and a cheat.....on paper alone it's not always easy to see the difference


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## Smiffy (Jan 27, 2018)

jusme said:



			Most golfers are seeking to improve, therefore it should never be a shock when an improving golfer shoots below or way below their handicap. *The handicap will catch up with them.*

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It will do if they are handing cards in. But what if they're not? Over the years I've played with plenty of people who shoot the lights out in friendly games but hardly ever play in qualifiers. Cheats? Bandits? Dunno, but it doesn't half annoy me when I have to hand the winnings over to them.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 27, 2018)

Smiffy said:



			It will do if they are handing cards in. But what if they're not? Over the years I've played with plenty of people who shoot the lights out in friendly games but hardly ever play in qualifiers. Cheats? Bandits? Dunno, but it doesn't half annoy me when I have to hand the winnings over to them.
		
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Agree the stakes, then agree that you will all submit supplemental cards......:clap:

Or just pointedly decline to play them for money


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## Tashyboy (Jan 27, 2018)

Smiffy said:



			It will do if they are handing cards in. But what if they're not? Over the years I've played with plenty of people who shoot the lights out in friendly games but hardly ever play in qualifiers. Cheats? Bandits? Dunno, but it doesn't half annoy me when I have to hand the winnings over to them.
		
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Smiffy shouldn't you be out on the lash today partying. Not lurking around here. Happy birthday


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## duncan mackie (Jan 27, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Smiffy shouldn't you be out on the lash today partying. Not lurking around here. Happy birthday
		
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Rumour has it he can do both at once....


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## Coffey (Jan 27, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Up for a friendly handicap challenge this season mate?


I am off the same handicap and getting monthly lessons, hoping to get to singles this season.
		
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Sorry just seen this,

Yeah sounds good!


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## Paperboy (Jan 27, 2018)

I remember playing of 14, got 43 points n a board comp. Was third on count back to a 11 and 12 handicapper. B lobbed the SI 18 as well 

A week later in a normal stableford got another 43 points after a 2 shot cut and won by 6 points. Wish it had been the other way around!


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 28, 2018)

to be a handicap cheat you have to have intent manipulate the system to your favour.

Practicing hard and playing in a comp once a month is fine IMP, you might only get in 8-10 comps a year but thatâ€™s enough. I think 3 is too few, 5 is ok


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## jusme (Jan 30, 2018)

Smiffy said:



			It will do if they are handing cards in. But what if they're not? Over the years I've played with plenty of people who shoot the lights out in friendly games but hardly ever play in qualifiers. Cheats? Bandits? Dunno, but it doesn't half annoy me when I have to hand the winnings over to them.
		
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I simply see that type of person as a cheat. I wouldn't play them for money and I would tell them why


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## Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

Rather than creating a new thread for sake of it thought I'd resurrect this one.

Just played in our Wednesday Wanderers 9 hole midweek roll up, I'm usually at work so this was my first outing in it for weeks.

 Played in a 3 ball with one of our lady members and with a lad that's recently moved to our club from one a few miles away. I was marking the card for all 3 of us and when asked handicaps told me his was 15. So no dramas,  He was hitting the ball simply sensationally, long and straight. When he missed a green he had an amazing touch from the sand. He finished the front 9 with 24pts. 

When we got in he collected his money from the swindle pot and made his exit. Whilst sat having a coffee of the guys and ladies that play in the roll up each week were a little disgruntled and  one of them said he's won the pot every week for the last 7 weeks and the worst he has scored is 22 points and that was with a blob.

The lady I played with at this point mentioned she spoke with him on the 7th hole about his handicap and how it will get cut and he had told her at his last club he played off 6, but did new cards when he moved to us, but had been choosing not to play in qualifiers as he wanted to wait till big comps in summer come round. As you can imagine there were a few disgruntled members feeling like they've been done over the last few weeks knowing this fact and as a result one of the older boys has reported it to our pro to look into. 

I'm all for people having the best chance to win something but today's episode left a sour taste.l


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Rather than creating a new thread for sake of it thought I'd resurrect this one.

Just played in our Wednesday Wanderers 9 hole midweek roll up, I'm usually at work so this was my first outing in it for weeks.

Played in a 3 ball with one of our lady members and with a lad that's recently moved to our club from one a few miles away. I was marking the card for all 3 of us and when asked handicaps told me his was 15. So no dramas,  He was hitting the ball simply sensationally, long and straight. When he missed a green he had an amazing touch from the sand. He finished the front 9 with 24pts.

When we got in he collected his money from the swindle pot and made his exit. Whilst sat having a coffee of the guys and ladies that play in the roll up each week were a little disgruntled and  one of them said he's won the pot every week for the last 7 weeks and the worst he has scored is 22 points and that was with a blob.

The lady I played with at this point mentioned she spoke with him on the 7th hole about his handicap and how it will get cut and he had told her at his last club he played off 6, but did new cards when he moved to us, but had been choosing not to play in qualifiers as he wanted to wait till big comps in summer come round. As you can imagine there were a few disgruntled members feeling like they've been done over the last few weeks knowing this fact and as a result one of the older boys has reported it to our pro to look into.

I'm all for people having the best chance to win something but today's episode left a sour taste.l
		
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If what the lady member has said s true then he may well struggle to find someone to mark his card in a comp...... Blatant handicap avoidance imo

Gotta ask though, if he had a legitimate handicap, why has he had to hand in new cards at your place?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 5, 2019)

Ouch, not a way to make friends.


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## NorwichBanana (Jun 5, 2019)

Maybe add in your own roll up handicaps? So if said chap wins he loses 1 or 2 shots off his handicap the following week and so on and so forth.


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## Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			If what the lady member has said s true then he may well struggle to find someone to mark his card in a comp...... Blatant handicap avoidance imo

*Gotta ask though, if he had a legitimate handicap, why has he had to hand in new cards at your place?*

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I actually have no answer to that question to be honest. I can only assume he wasn't upfront about his previous membership when he joined and didn't give his CDH number. But that's just me making an assumption based on what she said to us about her conversation with him. 



NorwichBanana said:



			Maybe add in your own roll up handicaps? So if said chap wins he loses 1 or 2 shots off his handicap the following week and so on and so forth.
		
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Would make things a lot simpler I don't actually know why they don't do that, but I only play in it once every few weeks when not at work so has never been an issue for me, perhaps something they need to look at going forward


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## rosecott (Jun 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Rather than creating a new thread for sake of it thought I'd resurrect this one.

Just played in our Wednesday Wanderers 9 hole midweek roll up, I'm usually at work so this was my first outing in it for weeks.

Played in a 3 ball with one of our lady members and with a lad that's recently moved to our club from one a few miles away. I was marking the card for all 3 of us and when asked handicaps told me his was 15. So no dramas,  He was hitting the ball simply sensationally, long and straight. When he missed a green he had an amazing touch from the sand. He finished the front 9 with 24pts.

When we got in he collected his money from the swindle pot and made his exit. Whilst sat having a coffee of the guys and ladies that play in the roll up each week were a little disgruntled and  one of them said he's won the pot every week for the last 7 weeks and the worst he has scored is 22 points and that was with a blob.

The lady I played with at this point mentioned she spoke with him on the 7th hole about his handicap and how it will get cut and he had told her at his last club he played off 6, but did new cards when he moved to us, but had been choosing not to play in qualifiers as he wanted to wait till big comps in summer come round. As you can imagine there were a few disgruntled members feeling like they've been done over the last few weeks knowing this fact and as a result one of the older boys has reported it to our pro to look into.

I'm all for people having the best chance to win something but today's episode left a sour taste.l
		
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Did he fail to disclose his previous handicap history when he joined your club? I find it extremely hard to believe that he was allocated 15 unless he had not been playing for a very long time since his previous handicap - even then it sounds very dodgy. If that is the case, the club should take immediate action, including a demand to repay his ill-goten gains.


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## patricks148 (Jun 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Rather than creating a new thread for sake of it thought I'd resurrect this one.

Just played in our Wednesday Wanderers 9 hole midweek roll up, I'm usually at work so this was my first outing in it for weeks.

Played in a 3 ball with one of our lady members and with a lad that's recently moved to our club from one a few miles away. I was marking the card for all 3 of us and when asked handicaps told me his was 15. So no dramas,  He was hitting the ball simply sensationally, long and straight. When he missed a green he had an amazing touch from the sand. He finished the front 9 with 24pts.

When we got in he collected his money from the swindle pot and made his exit. Whilst sat having a coffee of the guys and ladies that play in the roll up each week were a little disgruntled and  one of them said he's won the pot every week for the last 7 weeks and the worst he has scored is 22 points and that was with a blob.

The lady I played with at this point mentioned she spoke with him on the 7th hole about his handicap and how it will get cut and he had told her at his last club he played off 6, but did new cards when he moved to us, but had been choosing not to play in qualifiers as he wanted to wait till big comps in summer come round. As you can imagine there were a few disgruntled members feeling like they've been done over the last few weeks knowing this fact and as a result one of the older boys has reported it to our pro to look into.

I'm all for people having the best chance to win something but today's episode left a sour taste.l
		
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sounds dodgy, if he was a member at a club in the last year or so it should have been picked up and had the same handicap... never quit understand the mentality of these people why would you want to get a 15 handicap when you were 6 before???


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## DRW (Jun 5, 2019)

Does the roll up, not adjust the handicap after every roll up ? thought most did, would stop a guy doing all NQ and winning the pot each week, fairly quickly, as the roll up would be cutting him hard each time?

Either way surprised something hasn't happen by the handicap committee with the extra information now available.


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## rosecott (Jun 5, 2019)

DRW said:



			Does the roll up, not adjust the handicap after every roll up ? thought most did, would stop a guy doing all NQ and winning the pot each week, fairly quickly, as the roll up would be cutting him hard each time?

Either way surprised something hasn't happen by the handicap committee with the extra information now available.
		
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There should be no need for roll-up handicaps to be adjusted if all players have genuine handicaps - and that is up to the Handicap Committee.


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## Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Did he fail to disclose his previous handicap history when he joined your club? I find it extremely hard to believe that he was allocated 15 unless he had not been playing for a very long time since his previous handicap - even then it sounds very dodgy. If that is the case, the club should take immediate action, including a demand to repay his ill-goten gains.
		
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Again can't comment as I wasn't party of the I itial conversation with the lady in our group, likewise I can only make assumptions on why he did cards or didn't declare previous playing records as it was the first time I'd ever met him. He was a very good ball striker though. Important thing for me is its now been brought to attention of the right people. 



patricks148 said:



			sounds dodgy, if he was a member at a club in the last year or so it should have been picked up and had the same handicap... never quit understand the mentality of these people why would you want to get a 15 handicap when you were 6 before???
		
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Again as above I'm not sure Patrick, I can only make assumptions based on the little info we all got at the coffee table today. Like you I can't imagine why you'd want such a higher handicap, when I returned to playing I wanted to be as low as I was before but my record was old and my form crap but based on what I told them of my previous record from a number of years ago was allocated accordingly. I can only assume he wasn't so upfront wheb he joined. 



DRW said:



			Does the roll up, not adjust the handicap after every roll up ? thought most did, would stop a guy doing all NQ and winning the pot each week, fairly quickly, as the roll up would be cutting him hard each time?

Either way surprised something hasn't happen by the handicap committee with the extra information now available.
		
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I've only played in it twice in 6months bit I know they don't adjust it no, as its always got different people playing its taken that your handicap should be accurate to your ability. Sadly this case is aside from that but is now going to be looked at.


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## DRW (Jun 5, 2019)

Just thought, if he shot 24 points for 9 holes off a 15 handicap, he was I assume 1 or 2 under par gross, well done for a 15 handicap, did he have any 'lucky' chip ins or silly long putts sunk that helped his score massively today  ?

Hope the club gets it sorted.


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## patricks148 (Jun 5, 2019)

even worse sounds like he took the Money (again) and ran, did he stop to but you a drink?


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## User20204 (Jun 5, 2019)

DRW said:



			Just thought, if he shot 24 points for 9 holes off a 15 handicap, he was I assume 1 or 2 under par gross, well done for a 15 handicap, did he have any 'lucky' chip ins or silly long putts sunk that helped his score massively today  ?

Hope the club gets it sorted.
		
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I'm not great with stableford but wouldn't he get 8 shots so would only require 8 pars and a blob to get 24 points.


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## Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

DRW said:



			Just thought, if he shot 24 points for 9 holes off a 15 handicap, he was I assume 1 or 2 under par gross, well done for a 15 handicap, did he have any 'lucky' chip ins or silly long putts sunk that helped his score massively today  ?

Hope the club gets it sorted.
		
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He did hole a monster birdie put on our 3rd hole. But then that's our index 3 hole and he hit it with a driver and SW... ðŸ˜³

Par 5 7th, Driver and 6 iron to 20 feet just missed the Eagle putt, ironically missed the birdie putt from 3 feet coming back to ðŸ˜‚. Then on our 9th stuck his approach to 2foot despite having to hit a massive draw around the trees for his 2nd shot...




patricks148 said:



			even worse sounds like he took the Money (again) and ran, did he stop to but you a drink?

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That's what annoyed me most I ended buying the rounds ðŸ˜‚


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## Orikoru (Jun 5, 2019)

DRW said:



			Just thought, if he shot 24 points for 9 holes off a 15 handicap, he was I assume 1 or 2 under par gross, well done for a 15 handicap, did he have any 'lucky' chip ins or silly long putts sunk that helped his score massively today  ?

Hope the club gets it sorted.
		
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I think you meant 1 or 2 _over_ par, no?


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## DRW (Jun 5, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I think you meant 1 or 2 _over_ par, no?
		
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I could say yes, but that would be lying  I did mean under as I missed calculated it in my head wrong but as you say is more likely to be 1 or 2 over par. 

I'm stupid,  Doh


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## dronfield (Jun 5, 2019)

It is a bizzarre situation, as has already been stated, surely his h/c should just be tfd across from his previous club - i have heard of this being delayed due to previous clubs being slow to release a h/c.

On his application he must have stated existing gc? Unless the membership had lapsed and he technically didnt have an official h/c? I remember this being the case with a new member at my previous club, where he had in the past been low single, but was not joining from another club & so had to go through the 3 card process.

Odd that after several weeks of winning that somebody in the roll up has only just questioned his h/c background  - assume going forward a more appropriate one will be insisted upon if he is to be allowed to play in the roll up.

Clearly needs addressing now before he "nicks" one of your club's majors.

Rich


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## duncan mackie (Jun 5, 2019)

I am aware ofna similar case a few years back where such a situation developed to the point that the player had won a few events...and then the phone calls started and the previous history was established.
Absolutey all prizes were demanded back, name deleted from trophies and boards  - then politely asked to leave.
Back to this case - Why the swindle let him compete (on the basis of what's posted) amazes me. If it's established that his previous history wasn't disclosed fully the committee should sort things one way or another - and without wishing to pre-judge sometimes difficult situations it sounds like an allocation of 5.6, or 6.0, could well be appropriate .... and quickly. Whether the swindle politely request the return of funds would depend on exactly what is established.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2019)

I am sure I posted something very similar to this situation a few months ago and my questioning of said hcap was questioned. And that is putting it nicely. 
We could give our opinions all day long but in essence, and this ones for Rosecott, Rule fan, and a few others as they are more persee re rules . Is there anything the club that said golfer is now at can do in regards to contacting the other club said golfer previously played at.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Is there anything the club that said golfer is now at can do in regards to contacting the other club said golfer previously played at.
		
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There are a number of things they can do once alerted to possible issues.
They can contact the previous club, but they shouldn't need to because once they know he was a member at a previous club they can search the CDH under that club and his name for his history.


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## Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I am aware ofna similar case a few years back where such a situation developed to the point that the player had won a few events...and then the phone calls started and the previous history was established.
Absolutey all prizes were demanded back, name deleted from trophies and boards  - then politely asked to leave.
Back to this case - Why the swindle let him compete (on the basis of what's posted) amazes me. If it's established that his previous history wasn't disclosed fully the committee should sort things one way or another - and without wishing to pre-judge sometimes difficult situations it sounds like an allocation of 5.6, or 6.0, could well be appropriate .... and quickly. Whether the swindle politely request the return of funds would depend on exactly what is established.
		
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I was amazed to when they said its been several weeks, I'm back down the club Friday so will ask a few questions to what's been established, but l hopes it's a simple thing for the club as they will now be aware of his previous club so contact can be made and relevant course of action taken. 

I can only work on the assumption when he joined nothing was disclosed to the club. We've had an influx of some new members recently due to an offer the club had on for joining. I know of another incident recently where we had 2 lads come from another club and try and submit cards but was pointed out handicap will just be transferred and that's what rightly happened. 

In this case as u said above I can only assume he didn't disclose it to the Pro who is also our secretary so could have slipped through and if that's the case it's been done dishonestly and hopefully sanctions be taken.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			There are a number of things they can do once alerted to possible issues.
They can contact the previous club, but they shouldn't need to because once they know he was a member at a previous club they can search the CDH under that club and his name for his history.
		
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Cheers duncan me man. Another day ave learned something. ðŸ‘


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## dronfield (Jun 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I am sure I posted something very similar to this situation a few months ago and my questioning of said hcap was questioned. And that is putting it nicely.
We could give our opinions all day long but in essence, and this ones for Rosecott, Rule fan, and a few others as they are more persee re rules . Is there anything the club that said golfer is now at can do in regards to contacting the other club said golfer previously played at.
		
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You would imagine they could contact previous club to ascertain how recently he was a member - ie, has he been playing there this year, or did he leave some time ago (in which case assume 3 new cards is only option?).

Am guessing his prev club are not on HDID?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2019)

dronfield said:



			You would imagine they could contact previous club to ascertain how recently he was a member - ie, has he been playing there this year, or did he leave some time ago (in which case assume 3 new cards is only option?).

*Am guessing his prev club are not on HDID?*

Click to expand...

Iâ€™d imagine they are on one of the systems, easy to search HDID or Masterscoreboard etc for Club name to find out what they use.


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## rosecott (Jun 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I am sure I posted something very similar to this situation a few months ago and my questioning of said hcap was questioned. And that is putting it nicely.
We could give our opinions all day long but in essence, and this ones for Rosecott, Rule fan, and a few others as they are more persee re rules . Is there anything the club that said golfer is now at can do in regards to contacting the other club said golfer previously played at.
		
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Clubs are required to maintain playing records for the current year and the previous 2 years. I suspect that most clubs do that as an absolute minimum. Ours go back to 2002 when we first started using Handicapmaster.


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## jusme (Jun 5, 2019)

Truly shocking that this happens and its not just a shame its an absolute disgrace that this fellow is stealing money from people week in, week out. It's theft pure and simple. I'm glad I'm not a member there. I wouldn't trust myself if I ran into him. 

What's more important is that your club MUST put a stop to this immediately. Can't believe how angry I feel about a post on the internet - its utterly disgusting behaviour and must be stopped


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Clubs are required to maintain playing records for the current year and the previous 2 years. I suspect that most clubs do that as an absolute minimum. Ours go back to 2002 when we first started using Handicapmaster.
		
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reason i quoted you and a couple of others, am sure i posted something similar a few months ago re a guy at our place, which got a bit debated to say the least. i could not remember if a suggestion was mentioned re being able to check ones previous hcap. i felt sure a few learned forumers would have an answer.


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## Lump (Jun 5, 2019)

My view / opinion which wonâ€™t be popular with 99% of people. 
Everyone is a bandit unless you play in every qualifier you possibly can, people that play the 3 qualifiers over the season are hiding for a reason. Be it low guys trying to stay low or high guys trying to stay high or even players that say they canâ€™t play with a card in hand. 
I donâ€™t care if someone plays 20+ handicappers and gets 20 x 0.1â€™s, they are putting cards in. Itâ€™s no easy feat to play badly just to increase a handicap.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 5, 2019)

If he hasnâ€™t disclosed his previous hcap he is just cheating imo.
He would not get away with this at my club.
The lads in the sweep are no fools.
As wolf says his ballstriking would give it away 
But to win 7 on the trot, heâ€™s not making many friends.


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## Orikoru (Jun 5, 2019)

Lump said:



			My view / opinion which wonâ€™t be popular with 99% of people. 
Everyone is a bandit unless you play in every qualifier you possibly can, people that play the 3 qualifiers over the season are hiding for a reason. Be it low guys trying to stay low or high guys trying to stay high or even players that say they canâ€™t play with a card in hand. 
I donâ€™t care if someone plays 20+ handicappers and gets 20 x 0.1â€™s, they are putting cards in. Itâ€™s no easy feat to play badly just to increase a handicap.
		
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I'm technically a bandit by accident. Probably play in about half the comps, try really hard and score 94 or something. Friendly rounds in between and it's 87.


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## User20204 (Jun 5, 2019)

6 on the trot and no one questions him ? Some folk get what they deserve.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 5, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I'm technically a bandit by accident. Probably play in about half the comps, try really hard and score 94 or something. Friendly rounds in between and it's 87.
		
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You canâ€™t be a bandit if you are trying to score as low as you can.
A bandit manipulates his score to order.


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## sam85 (Jun 5, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			6 on the trot and no one questions him ? Some folk get what they deserve.
		
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Was exactly what I was thinking, how did they let him win 6 weeks on the bounce without someone saying something.


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## Orikoru (Jun 5, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You canâ€™t be a bandit if you are trying to score as low as you can.
A bandit manipulates his score to order.
		
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Yeah but if I somehow won the club champs this weekend and anyone got hold of my non comp scores they'd probably say I was one!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 5, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah but if I somehow won the club champs this weekend and anyone got hold of my non comp scores they'd probably say I was one!
		
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As long as YOU know donâ€™t worry about jealous #%@Â£+s.
Everyone scores better with their mates.
Thatâ€™s why some people never win a big one = nerves.

Ours is off scratch ,36 holes in one day, I have the game but not the legs anymore.


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## User20204 (Jun 5, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah but if I somehow won the club champs this weekend and anyone got hold of my non comp scores they'd probably say I was one!
		
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Club Champion scoring in the 90s ?? Have I missed something here ? To get in to our club Championship knockouts you'd need to be around scratch at best.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 5, 2019)

I did wonder what happened to the old forum member El Bandito.


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## TheDiablo (Jun 5, 2019)

sam85 said:



			Was exactly what I was thinking, how did they let him win 6 weeks on the bounce without someone saying something.
		
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Pretty sure you've taken the money 6 weeks on the bounce before!


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## rosecott (Jun 5, 2019)

Lump said:



			My view / opinion which wonâ€™t be popular with 99% of people.
Everyone is a bandit unless you play in every qualifier you possibly can, people that play the 3 qualifiers over the season are hiding for a reason. Be it low guys trying to stay low or high guys trying to stay high or even players that say they canâ€™t play with a card in hand.
I donâ€™t care if someone plays 20+ handicappers and gets 20 x 0.1â€™s, they are putting cards in. Itâ€™s no easy feat to play badly just to increase a handicap.
		
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Well, I'm certainly not a bandit as I played 110 qualifiers last year and am approaching the 50 mark this year. I have always believed that the more qualifiers you play, the more your handicap is a true reflection.


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## User20204 (Jun 5, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Well, I'm certainly not a bandit as I played 110 qualifiers last year and am approaching the 50 mark this year. I have always believed that the more qualifiers you play, the more your handicap is a true reflection.
		
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Wow, how is that even possibly to play so many, is that qualifiers all year round ?


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## rosecott (Jun 5, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Wow, how is that even possibly to play so many, is that qualifiers all year round ?
		
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Yes, we play qualifiers all year round - free draining sandstone-based heathland. There are normally QRs 3 days a week except Seniors have the occasional team game or 3-club event or other NQs.


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## Lump (Jun 5, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Well, I'm certainly not a bandit as I played 110 qualifiers last year and am approaching the 50 mark this year. I have always believed that the more qualifiers you play, the more your handicap is a true reflection.
		
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And thatâ€™s exactly as it should be. 
People put far too much pressure on what hcp they have. 
I really couldnâ€™t care and through that it opens me up to enjoy golf more.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 5, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Well, I'm certainly not a bandit as I played 110 qualifiers last year and am approaching the 50 mark this year. I have always believed that the more qualifiers you play, the more your handicap is a true reflection.
		
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Hats off to you Jim , you put all us youngsters to shame


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## Orikoru (Jun 5, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Club Champion scoring in the 90s ?? Have I missed something here ? To get in to our club Championship knockouts you'd need to be around scratch at best.
		
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Meant the net prize obviously.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2019)

Itâ€™s important to distinguish between a bandit (someone who manipulates their handicap to win events) and a rapidly improving golfer ( where the handicap system lags behind for a period of time)

Ie 28 handicapper shoots 44 points
So has the ability to play off 20
But only gets cut 2.4,

The system will catch up, but there is a delay


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## badgb21 (Jun 6, 2019)

Iâ€™m 15 months into my latest come back to golf (last one was over 30 yrs ago and only tinkered) So I am on the steep bit of the improvement curve â€“ well I hope so!

I currently play off 23 and only rarely beat this in a stroke count. However, itâ€™s how itâ€™s made up that often gets me thoseâ€™ glancesâ€™ or â€˜commentsâ€™ on my good holes. 
I seem to score and play well on most holes and then my score is hammered by melt downs on just a very few holes.
I know this may sound familiar to many, but it happens so regularly of late.

So, in our private little comps of match play and other weird scoring systems, I do well and win holes/games, but my overall score count is poor, as when it goes wrong, it can be spectacular!

Iâ€™m learning to take bigger doses of medicine and hope lady luck will come on my side a bit. as every bunker I end up in, Iâ€™m under an impossible lip. Also keeping calm is my biggest factor to overcome.

I do think the comment above practicing is so right, I know I play too much and donâ€™t practice enough, so will address this.

Anyway, I think Iâ€™m an unintentional bandit in certain scoring games!


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## dronfield (Jun 6, 2019)

badgb21 said:



			Iâ€™m 15 months into my latest come back to golf (last one was over 30 yrs ago and only tinkered) So I am on the steep bit of the improvement curve â€“ well I hope so!

I currently play off 23 and only rarely beat this in a stroke count. However, itâ€™s how itâ€™s made up that often gets me thoseâ€™ glancesâ€™ or â€˜commentsâ€™ on my good holes.
I seem to score and play well on most holes and then my score is hammered by melt downs on just a very few holes.
I know this may sound familiar to many, but it happens so regularly of late.

So, in our private little comps of match play and other weird scoring systems, I do well and win holes/games, but my overall score count is poor, as when it goes wrong, it can be spectacular!

Iâ€™m learning to take bigger doses of medicine and hope lady luck will come on my side a bit. as every bunker I end up in, Iâ€™m under an impossible lip. Also keeping calm is my biggest factor to overcome.

I do think the comment above practicing is so right, I know I play too much and donâ€™t practice enough, so will address this.

Anyway, I think Iâ€™m an unintentional bandit in certain scoring games!
		
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This pretty well sums up my game.

Off my 20 h/c i generally have 14 decent holes (few pars, mostly bogeys), a couple of DBs, and then there always seem to be a 7 & 8 thrown in that ruins my medal round.

Like most high h/c players, my best comp scores have generally been in stablefords, and i am a useful partner in the weekend fiddle games (resulting in comments that ny h/c should be lower).

The good holes show me what is achievable, but my inability to remove the two killer ones from a round is really holding me back - would love to have a h/c of circa 13/14.

Rich


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2019)

dronfield said:



			This pretty well sums up my game.

Off my 20 h/c i generally have 14 decent holes (few pars, mostly bogeys), a couple of DBs, and then there always seem to be a 7 & 8 thrown in that ruins my medal round.

Like most high h/c players, my best comp scores have generally been in stablefords, and i am a useful partner in the weekend fiddle games (resulting in comments that ny h/c should be lower).

The good holes show me what is achievable, but my inability to remove the two killer ones from a round is really holding me back - would love to have a h/c of circa 13/14.

Rich
		
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Maybe a change of mindset might be in order

If you clock up a birdie on a par 3, the benefit to either your net score or points score for the whole round between writing either 4 points or a â€˜2â€™ is exactly the same. Similarly blobbing or writing 7 for a par 4 has an equal detriment to your net score for the round in either scoring format

I could see where a couple of double digit scores in medal would be really harmful compared to Stableford but not doubles with the odd treble
(& that 13 handicapper playing in the group behind you will still rock up their fair share of doubles and 7's too)


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## dronfield (Jun 6, 2019)

Slab said:



			Maybe a change of mindset might be in order

If you clock up a birdie on a par 3, the benefit to either your net score or points score for the whole round between writing either 4 points or a â€˜2â€™ is exactly the same. Similarly blobbing or writing 7 for a par 4 has an equal detriment to your net score for the round in either scoring format

I could see where a couple of double digit scores in medal would be really harmful compared to Stableford but not doubles with the odd treble
(& that 13 handicapper playing in the group behind you will still rock up their fair share of doubles and 7's too)
		
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Agree it is def a mindset issue (as well as an ability one!).

To me, stabelfords allow the odd bad hole, knowing that i can hopefully score well enough in 15 holes to at least finish in the buffer zone. The pressure is completely different.

In medal play, if i score a 8 or 9, i start thinking how many pars (and where can i get them) do i need to recover the round back to average 1 over per hole - to achieve a sub h/c round & get cut.

Rich


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## adam6177 (Jun 6, 2019)

Played over the weekend with a group of 16 guys, some I knew and some I did not.

My normal PP has struggled recently to play to his handicap of 16, in fact I cant remember the last time he beat it.....anyway, Saturday he got 26 points and went out in the last group to win the wooden spoon.

Sunday he played to 7 and got 45 points and won the whole weekend by 1 point.......some days, its just your day.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 6, 2019)

Coffey said:



			I agree with this too.

I am playing off 15 and I know I have the ability to shoot beneath that but it just hasn't happened in a comp yet.

But I am taking lessons every month and try to get to the range at least once a week. During the summer I am on the course nearly every evening. So I wouldn't say I am a cheat or a bandit as I am practicing and trying to get the handicap down. So if I do win a comp and get cut then I guess my hard work is starting to pay off.
		
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I agree because I am in a similar position. Handicap 16, last two competitions I played awful , got 23 and 22 points. ( when I go off piste, I usually go off the mountain too)
During the year in social play I've parred every hole st some point and birdied 
some. Last evening, doing 9 holes alone for practice I eagled a par 5.
Drive, 3 wood ,putt.  Jumped up and down! Won't happen again, I suppose.
But it's clear I could possibly one day in a comp play a real blinder and come in with a score expected of a five handicap. It might just all come together.
That doesn't make me a cheat or bandit , does it?  But I'd bet some eyebrows would get raised, to say the leastðŸ˜€
No doubt about it. Handicaps 11-18 can go big in either direction sometimes.


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## Coffey (Jun 6, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree because I am in a similar position. Handicap 16, last two competitions I played awful , got 23 and 22 points. ( when I go off piste, I usually go off the mountain too)
During the year in social play I've parred every hole st some point and birdied
some. Last evening, doing 9 holes alone for practice I eagled a par 5.
Drive, 3 wood ,putt.  Jumped up and down! Won't happen again, I suppose.
But it's clear I could possibly one day in a comp play a real blinder and come in with a score expected of a five handicap. It might just all come together.
That doesn't make me a cheat or bandit , does it?  But I'd bet some eyebrows would get raised, to say the leastðŸ˜€
No doubt about it. Handicaps 11-18 can go big in either direction sometimes.
		
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Well following on from my post.

I moved to a new club just after I posted that.

Won the first 3 comps, two were non-qualifying so handicap didn't move at all. 

I heard rumors of people chatting about a new member coming in with a fake handicap and winning comps etc.

Just brushed it off as I knew I had worked hard to get better and was playing well enough, not my fault my handicap couldnt change during the winter.

I have now stablised around 10.

It is going to happen now and again with people but as long as you are playing Qualifiers then there is not much else you can do. If you have a good score then the cut will come, its the people who don't play qualifiers all year and perk up at board comps that you have to look out for!


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## DRW (Jun 6, 2019)

I never understand why when people know they have improved and can not enter qualifying comps(winter or another reason), why they do not do supplementary cards, to ensure that their handicap is cut or reviewed and corrected?

We had to do this for our son last year, as he dropped by about 6 shots iirc but was working at weekends and couldn't barely do comps, so we did supplementary social round cards to ensure his handicap was about correct and got cut.

Maybe something people do not remember is available ?

PS Do agree that the handicaps from 9-18 are handicaps that on their day with a bit of luck can score silly like 9-10 shots under handicap a few times in a year(I fit that kind of person myself), even tho they haven't really improved or are bandits. I am typically a non buffer kind of person, either great or rubbish(mainly)


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## williamalex1 (Jun 6, 2019)

badgb21 said:



			Iâ€™m 15 months into my latest come back to golf (last one was over 30 yrs ago and only tinkered) So I am on the steep bit of the improvement curve â€“ well I hope so!

I currently play off 23 and only rarely beat this in a stroke count. However, itâ€™s how itâ€™s made up that often gets me thoseâ€™ glancesâ€™ or â€˜commentsâ€™ on my good holes.
I seem to score and play well on most holes and then my score is hammered by melt downs on just a very few holes.
I know this may sound familiar to many, but it happens so regularly of late.

So, in our private little comps of match play and other weird scoring systems, I do well and win holes/games, but my overall score count is poor, as when it goes wrong, it can be spectacular!

Iâ€™m learning to take bigger doses of medicine and hope lady luck will come on my side a bit. as every bunker I end up in, Iâ€™m under an impossible lip. Also keeping calm is my biggest factor to overcome.

I do think the comment above practicing is so right, I know I play too much and donâ€™t practice enough, so will address this.

Anyway, I think Iâ€™m an unintentional bandit in certain scoring games!
		
Click to expand...

Under the new rule 19.3 you can drop back out from the bunker, adding a 2 stroke penalty.


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## ScienceBoy (Jun 6, 2019)

I second the practice chipping putting over playing on the course.

In my experience spending my evenings on the short game area instead of the range and the course played a huge factor in improving my golf.

I can barely hit a club over a 6 iron yet even I managed to shoot in the 70s.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 6, 2019)

Most posts here are just golfers ,thatâ€™s just how the game is.
Struggle for a game then just clicks.

Bandits can turn it on to win things ,thatâ€™s the difference imo.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 6, 2019)

Going on what happened in the roll up, several things don't sit right. Why let him play each week if he's one the money for 7 weeks. He is out of order not staying around to buy drinks. However by far and away the worse issue is not disclosing the previous history and it'll be interesting to see if the club were aware, whether they've made enquiries to the other club and what they plan to do


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## matt71 (Jun 6, 2019)

Been playing for about 7 years started at 22 then went up to 28!

Realised needed to get some help so had  some lessons and made friends with some mid - low handicappers and played with them.

All aspects of this helped improve my game, not just how I hit the ball bit also my decision making when I was in trouble .

Anyhow got my handicap down to 17 at start of this year and now after a bit of purple patch I am
Now on 13.3 ( combination of supâ€™ cards,comps and exceptional scoring cut)

There is no way I am a 13 handicapper but recent form shows different and it will only be a matter of time before I go up. I preferred the luxury of knowning I had plenty of shots in hand and I lack confidence playing as low as I am now 

Not sure what I am trying to say as I forgot mid sentence ( sorry) and I am tired


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## badgb21 (Jun 7, 2019)

Oh yes, I have pondered on that 'walk of shame' too many times this year, but yet to succumb. I find the 2 or 4 shots just to get out as character building!
My focus now is not getting in there to begin with.



williamalex1 said:



			Under the new rule 19.3 you can drop back out from the bunker, adding a 2 stroke penalty.
		
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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

So a wee update on what occurred and has clearly set a debate going.

Club weren't made aware he was a member elsewhere previously, question was asked when he joined the answer given was only ever played with mates on a fortnightly basis, so had no record of handicap but supposedly he said that he reckoned he was a mid teens handicap (whilst that maybe true it to an extent he didn't divulge his playing with mates was as a member elsewhere) read in to that what you will, perhaps more digging could have been done by club.  It was therefore assumed based on his vague answers that he didn't have a handicap or CDH as never mentioned he was a member before at other clubs, that he would need do the obligatory 3 cards. Not sure who he did his cards with as wasn't privy to that info, but cards were done nonetheless and initial handicap allocated at 15 back in February. Since then had regularly played midweek and on weekends but never in a competition instead always choosing to play just after last groups gone out, hence never had a cut, also never been in clubhouse longer than to use the oblutions and collect his swindled winnings... Has played the Wednesday 9 hole spin up but again its not a comp just a swindle as it's not always same people playing no cuts on a gentleman's agreement.

The true outcome from what I know at moment is, club have been in contact with the old club he mentioned to our female playing partner, has been found he was a full member in 2017, but lapsed off at start of 2018, his actual playing handicap at time of leaving was actually  7 (6.6 to be exact). His CDH is now recognised at our place but obviously a club matter that is being dealt with further so not been made privvy what sanctions will be made, but from what little I do know is action is to be taken in its entirety after a committee meeting this coming week.

There is no midweek roll up next week due to a society day, and as far as I can tell he is to be invited to said committee meeting to speak about his directly..

I guess we watch this space with intrigue seems he club have potentially been a little naive in the initial sign up in haste to get people in on the deal they had but perhaps lessons will now be learnt


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## patricks148 (Jun 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			So a wee update on what occurred and has clearly set a debate going.

Club weren't made aware he was a member elsewhere previously, question was asked when he joined the answer given was only ever played with mates on a fortnightly basis, so had no record of handicap but supposedly he said that he reckoned he was a mid teens handicap (whilst that maybe true it to an extent he didn't divulge his playing with mates was as a member elsewhere) read in to that what you will, perhaps more digging could have been done by club.  It was therefore assumed based on his vague answers that he didn't have a handicap or CDH as never mentioned he was a member before at other clubs, that he would need do the obligatory 3 cards. Not sure who he did his cards with as wasn't privy to that info, but cards were done nonetheless and initial handicap allocated at 15 back in February. Since then had regularly played midweek and on weekends but never in a competition instead always choosing to play just after last groups gone out, hence never had a cut, also never been in clubhouse longer than to use the oblutions and collect his swindled winnings... Has played the Wednesday 9 hole spin up but again its not a comp just a swindle as it's not always same people playing no cuts on a gentleman's agreement.

The true outcome from what I know at moment is, club have been in contact with the old club he mentioned to our female playing partner, has been found he was a full member in 2017, but lapsed off at start of 2018, his actual playing handicap at time of leaving was actually  7 (6.6 to be exact). His CDH is now recognised at our place but obviously a club matter that is being dealt with further so not been made privvy what sanctions will be made, but from what little I do know is action is to be taken in its entirety after a committee meeting this coming week.

There is no midweek roll up next week due to a society day, and as far as I can tell he is to be invited to said committee meeting to speak about his directly..

I guess we watch this space with intrigue seems he club have potentially been a little naive in the initial sign up in haste to get people in on the deal they had but perhaps lessons will now be learnt
		
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lets hope all the swindle (irony there for sure) get together and ask for their money back from him, pretty despicable TBH


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## Orikoru (Jun 7, 2019)

He's quite literally a conman by the sounds of it. He keeps his previous membership a secret, gets a high handicap, only enters rounds where he can take people's money but handicap isn't affected. That is borderline criminal, never mind being a 'bandit'.


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			lets hope all the swindle (irony there for sure) get together and ask for their money back from him, pretty despicable TBH
		
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Swindle is very apt indeed.. 
I'm off back down club tonight for a social quiz night they hist once a month and a lot of the guys that played on Wednesday will be there so it's  likely to be a hot topic of conversation and not something that can be kept and nor should it be kept quiet. 

I'll be very surprised of after tonight and the meeting due to happen that he finds anyone to play with. Dishonesty is not something as well we all know that is taken lightly in this game, and I don't think those in office are going to be happy to let it slide.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Swindle is very apt indeed..
I'm off back down club tonight for a social quiz night they hist once a month and a lot of the guys that played on Wednesday will be there so it's  likely to be a hot topic of conversation and not something that can be kept and nor should it be kept quiet.

I'll be very surprised of after tonight and the meeting due to happen that he finds anyone to play with. Dishonesty is not something as well we all know that is taken lightly in this game, and I don't think those in office are going to es a  happy to let it slide.
		
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As I said earlier heâ€™s a cheat.
He was asked the question and he never gave the whole truth.
I am sure at my club he would be out the door.
Those lads / girls in the swindle will not be happy.


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## patricks148 (Jun 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Swindle is very apt indeed..
I'm off back down club tonight for a social quiz night they hist once a month and a lot of the guys that played on Wednesday will be there so it's  likely to be a hot topic of conversation and not something that can be kept and nor should it be kept quiet.

I'll be very surprised of after tonight and the meeting due to happen that he finds anyone to play with. Dishonesty is not something as well we all know that is taken lightly in this game, and I don't think those in office are going to be happy to let it slide.
		
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nor should they he has cheated all those guys out of the swindle money, it might only be a few quid but its cheating pure and simple.

keep us informed, or should we look out on the local BBC regional pages for any lynchings in Lincolnshire


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			As I said earlier heâ€™s a cheat.
He was asked the question and he never gave the whole truth.
I am sure at my club he would be out the door.
Those lads / girls in the swindle will not be happy.
		
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Agree totally and I believe personally that should be the action taken, will know by early next week


patricks148 said:



			nor should they he has cheated all those guys out of the swindle money, it might only be a few quid but its cheating pure and simple.

keep us informed, or should we look out on the local BBC regional pages for any lynchings in Lincolnshire

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Put him edge of the first tee, all armed with drivers and used as a firing squad, can see that in news now as every shot misses him and he walks away unscathed until old Bert mows him down in his buggy ðŸ˜‚


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Agree totally and I believe personally that should be the action taken, will know by early next week

Put him edge of the first tee, all armed with drivers and used as a firing squad, can see that in news now as every shot misses him and he walks away unscathed until old Bert mows him down in his buggy ðŸ˜‚
		
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Do new members have a probationary period.?
If so heâ€™s out .
The problem is whoâ€™s going to play with him.
Once you have a reputation itâ€™s never forgotten.
I just donâ€™t understand why people do this for a few quid.


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Do new members have a probationary period.?
If so heâ€™s out .
The problem is whoâ€™s going to play with him.
Once you have a reputation itâ€™s never forgotten.
I just donâ€™t understand why people do this for a few quid.
		
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Honest answer is don't actually know if there's a probation period... 
I think that's the issue isn't it the reputation is there now and I'm assuming after tonight there will be so many knowing about it  that it will lead to the inevitable shunning by all.


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## rosecott (Jun 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Honest answer is don't actually know if there's a probation period...
I think that's the issue isn't it the reputation is there now and I'm assuming after tonight there will be so many knowing about it  that it will lead to the inevitable shunning by all.
		
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I would also expect that the full details will be passed to England Golf via the County Union.


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## Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I would also expect that the full details will be passed to England Golf via the County Union.
		
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If that's the process then I'd expect club to do so also. I'm not fully up to speed on all the ins and outs of club management. 

I guess we will soon know early next week.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 7, 2019)

Lets hope the club deal with it in an appropriate manner and don't try and sweep it under the carpet as they were perhaps partially negligent for not checking the CDH issue more thoroughly. That said if I was the swindle group I would simply make a stand as a collective and while getting the money back may be unrealistic, make it abundantly clear he is no longer welcome to play with them. I am sure as word spreads he'll find fewer and fewer people wanting to play with him


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## duncan mackie (Jun 8, 2019)

Just to pick up on a few comments -

1. I don't place any blame on the club to this point. You can only ask for the relevant info and act appropriately. Without even being told of previous club membership you will struggle to find any details - that club name is your ticket in any search.
2. With a maximum of 2 months over the year between his leaving and joining I would expect an allocation of 6.6 now, aalthough his golfing future is with the committee at this point (who should definitely get the minutes of the meeting signed off by the player as well.)


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## Wolf (Jun 17, 2019)

First chance I've had to get back to the club since my last post as played away match then we had the biblical weather.

There has been a resolution to the whole situation. As mentioned previously club found there was a CDH and previous active handicap. The long and short of it is he has been asked to leave the club after a lengthy meeting with the committee. From what I know he denied the initial accusation that he had been a member elsewhere but when  his previous playing record was shown to him apparently came clean he had been elsewhere and he hadn't mentioned it as he'd left there under somewhat of a cloud. I wasn't made aware of any other details in my short conversation with one of the people there. 

I believe the meeting ended fairly quickly after that and he is no longer at our club. So I guess that's a satisfactory solution for all those


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## patricks148 (Jun 17, 2019)

Wolf said:



			First chance I've had to get back to the club since my last post as played away match then we had the biblical weather.

There has been a resolution to the whole situation. As mentioned previously club found there was a CDH and previous active handicap. The long and short of it is he has been asked to leave the club after a lengthy meeting with the committee. From what I know he denied the initial accusation that he had been a member elsewhere but when  his previous playing record was shown to him apparently came clean he had been elsewhere and he hadn't mentioned it as he'd left there under somewhat of a cloud. I wasn't made aware of any other details in my short conversation with one of the people there.

I believe the meeting ended fairly quickly after that and he is no longer at our club. So I guess that's a satisfactory solution for all those
		
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Gad they took some decisive action, but They should have made him repay the sweep money he stole


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## Wolf (Jun 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Gad they took some decisive action, but They should have made him repay the sweep money he stole
		
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Would have been nice but I think in this instance it's best just put to bed and now the Wednesday crew can go back to playing a more balanced set up


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 17, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Would have been nice but I think in this instance it's best just put to bed and now the Wednesday crew can go back to playing a more balanced set up
		
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It's nice to see a club taking firm action, and not looking to keep dishonesty within their walls for the sake of a membership fee.
Your club sounds a good club.


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## Grant85 (Jun 17, 2019)

Wolf said:



			First chance I've had to get back to the club since my last post as played away match then we had the biblical weather.

There has been a resolution to the whole situation. As mentioned previously club found there was a CDH and previous active handicap. The long and short of it is he has been asked to leave the club after a lengthy meeting with the committee. From what I know he denied the initial accusation that he had been a member elsewhere but when  his previous playing record was shown to him apparently came clean he had been elsewhere and he hadn't mentioned it as he'd left there under somewhat of a cloud. I wasn't made aware of any other details in my short conversation with one of the people there.

I believe the meeting ended fairly quickly after that and he is no longer at our club. So I guess that's a satisfactory solution for all those
		
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That is pretty serious. I'm sure the committee did not commence the meeting with the intention of putting him out of the club so he must have given very poor answers. 

Frustrating, but at least it's only a few quid in a sweep he's gotten away with. Would have been far worse if he'd gotten to one of the big stroke play events and they'd have to DQ him retrospectively.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 17, 2019)

You would've thought that when someone with the same name, age and address was re registered with a new handicap,  the name would've flagged up and queered.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 17, 2019)

Idiot is all I can say.
You would think he would just keep a low profile for a couple of months.
But blowing the field in the swindle weeks on end will lead to questions.
You are well shut of him.

But it does leave questions over how easy it is to do this at another club.


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## Wolf (Jun 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Idiot is all I can say.
You would think he would just keep a low profile for a couple of months.
But blowing the field in the swindle weeks on end will lead to questions.
You are well shut of him.

But it does leave questions over how easy it is to do this at another club.
		
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Not sure how easy it is to do without being underhand. But then I'm not overly up on how the workings behind the Central Database is sorted out. 

Surely there are criteria that have to be input to create the unique record. But as members we just provide what's asked to those in power and voila out comes a handicap and CDH number. But the interesting part of that is I guess its down to the honesty of the person providing the information.


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## cliveb (Jun 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But it does leave questions over how easy it is to do this at another club.
		
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Given that he eventually admitted he'd left his previous club under a cloud, then he sounds like some kind of serial offender.
Isn't it therefore appropriate for Wolf's club to get in touch with all the other clubs in the area and warn them about him?


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## jusme (Jun 17, 2019)

I feel sorry for where he heads to next


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## rosecott (Jun 17, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Given that he eventually admitted he'd left his previous club under a cloud, then he sounds like some kind of serial offender.
Isn't it therefore appropriate for Wolf's club to get in touch with all the other clubs in the area and warn them about him?
		
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That sounds like the County Union should be involved.


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## User20204 (Jun 17, 2019)

A perfect example of why I don't enter in to sweeps or matchplay events. 

As for asking him to repay the money, best not kidding yourself on that is ever going to happen.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 17, 2019)

rosecott said:



			That sounds like the County Union should be involved.
		
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This. I think they should be made aware so they can make the decision to inform other clubs or not. If the club itself do it, then will it not come over as sour grapes and twisting the knife. One question though, if he already had a CDH number, did he get a new one when he joined this one so will EGU have two on their database? Should they be informed too?


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## Slime (Jun 17, 2019)

jusme said:



			I feel sorry for where he heads to next
		
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I think the club should email the details to all the other clubs in their area, explaining exactly what has occured.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 17, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Given that he eventually admitted he'd left his previous club under a cloud, then he sounds like some kind of serial offender.
Isn't it therefore appropriate for Wolf's club to get in touch with all the other clubs in the area and warn them about him?
		
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I'm sure his name will be all around the county in no time. Word spreads quickly when someone gets asked to leave a club. He may have to find a new hobby.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 17, 2019)

Wolf, without putting you on the spot what part of the Lincolnshire world are you from.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm sure his name will be all around the county in no time. Word spreads quickly when someone gets asked to leave a club. He may have to find a new hobby.
		
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Trouble is LT, Lincolnshire is the second largest county in the country. â˜¹ï¸If say he is Newark golf club, he is knocking on the door of Notts â˜¹ï¸


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## Wolf (Jun 17, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Wolf, without putting you on the spot what part of the Lincolnshire world are you from.
		
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I'll drop you a PM mate rather than put that on open forum only because never know whose reading and I've purposely not mentioned names as to keep this private for the club to deal with.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 17, 2019)

Perhaps its time this thread or subject matter quietly crept away. We wouldn't want any repercussions for anyone would we


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## Wolf (Jun 17, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps its time this thread or subject matter quietly crept away. We wouldn't want any repercussions for anyone would we

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Not a bad idea that...


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## Tashyboy (Jun 17, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'll drop you a PM mate rather than put that on open forum only because never know whose reading and I've purposely not mentioned names as to keep this private for the club to deal with.
		
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Cheers Craig.


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## Slab (Jun 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			I think the club should email the details to all the other clubs in their area, explaining exactly what has occured.
		
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In this day and age (GDPR/DPA etc) would that be allowable?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Trouble is LT, Lincolnshire is the second largest county in the country. â˜¹ï¸If say he is Newark golf club, he is knocking on the door of Notts â˜¹ï¸
		
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Fair point Tash. I forget that Northumberland is quite a small county in terms of numbers. If a golfer cheats and gets found out their name is known in no time across the clubs. Certainly the secretaries all talk amongst each other, the jungle drums work well here.


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## patricks148 (Jun 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Fair point Tash. I forget that Northumberland is quite a small county in terms of numbers. If a golfer cheats and gets found out their name is known in no time across the clubs. Certainly the secretaries all talk amongst each other, the jungle drums work well here.
		
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Some club will take him regardless.


We had a well publicised cheat Thrown out of the club, he even took the club to High court.... and lost. he is a member of two clubs locally, one of which is a famous course where the Sec was even a member of ours at the time he was chucked out, yet still let him join.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Some club will take him regardless.


We had a well publicised cheat Thrown out of the club, he even took the club to High court.... and lost. he is a member of two clubs locally, one of which is a famous course where the Sec was even a member of ours at the time he was chucked out, yet still let him join.
		
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Wow. Amazing that a club would accept that person. They bring with them so much bad publicity, potential for unrest etc.


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## patricks148 (Jun 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wow. Amazing that a club would accept that person. They bring with them so much bad publicity, potential for unrest etc.
		
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it was a well publicises case in the Scottish Press as he took the club to the high court for chucking him out, there was even a bit in GM back when it was all kicking off.

the well known club, do have two courses (clue) so he is only a member there, though he has, or at least was making a nuisance of himself asking why he hadn't been accepted onto the "championship course" though i've no idea why they even let him join in the first place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wow. Amazing that a club would accept that person. They bring with them so much bad publicity, potential for unrest etc.
		
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Is every member of your Club (or any Club) vetted and background checked? Iâ€™d imagine there are Golf Clubs up and down the Country with members with dubious backgrounds, probably far worse and more threatening to members and those Clubs than someone who was caught cheating on a Golf Course.

I fully understand and accept Golf is built on honesty or integrity, however, the over-reaction on what should be done to this bloke at Wolfâ€™s place is eye opening!


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## UlyssesSky (Jun 18, 2019)

cliveb said:



			Given that he eventually admitted he'd left his previous club under a cloud, then he sounds like some kind of serial offender.
Isn't it therefore appropriate for Wolf's club to get in touch with all the other clubs in the area and warn them about him?
		
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I think unless you know, what kind of cloud overshadowed him leaving his previous club, you need to give him the benefit of the doubt. Seeing his HCP at his old club was correct he probably didn't commit the same kind of cheating he pulled off in the new club.
Then again you'd have to think it was probably still his fault, since he didn't want to talk about it (if he had been wronged by the old club he certainly wouldn't have hesitated to talk about it).
Last but not least we have to consider the possibility that the whole "leaving under a cloud" thing was a made up excuse to explain why he didn't mention his previous membership...

No matter what the actual reasons were, I would be really careful about getting in touch with other clubs to warn them. A lost defamation suit could cost way more than the few quid he got from the swindle.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is every member of your Club (or any Club) vetted and background checked? Iâ€™d imagine there are Golf Clubs up and down the Country with members with dubious backgrounds, probably far worse and more threatening to members and those Clubs than someone who was caught cheating on a Golf Course.

I fully understand and accept Golf is built on honesty or integrity, however, the over-reaction on what should be done to this bloke at Wolfâ€™s place is eye opening!
		
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Fully vetted, I very much doubt. Even partially vetted I doubt. I can only go off my couple of years on a committee around 10yrs ago or so. When we had new applicants the names were put before the committee and we were asked if we 'knew anything about them, anything iffy'? There were enough people on there with their ear to the ground at various clubs, the secretary spoke to other secretaries regularly, so that anyone with a question mark over their name would be blocked. It was word of mouth stuff, old school I suppose. You would not put it in writing for legal reasons. Now, if someone moved from the Durham area to Northumberland they would get through but within a 30 mile radius of our club they would be known by all of the clubs in the area. I don't know if it is the same now or whether most clubs would just take the money.


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## GB72 (Jun 18, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'll drop you a PM mate rather than put that on open forum only because never know whose reading and I've purposely not mentioned names as to keep this private for the club to deal with.
		
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Any chance that you can PM me a bit more detail. Being a member at a Lincolnshire club it would be worth keeping an eye out.


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## 94tegsi (Jun 18, 2019)

Iâ€™m playing a bit of a â€œbanditâ€ in the clubs pairs KO on Sat. He is an ex 6 HC who stopped playing a few years ago. Started again 2 years ago, put in new cards to get a 16 HC, has only entered 4 qualifying comps in that time. Won a couple non qualifiers with 42/43 points. He is now at 14 and I see him practising a lot, is only a 5 day member, but doesnâ€™t enter any mid week comps. Part of the club B Team which are non qualifying etc.


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## 2blue (Jun 18, 2019)

94tegsi said:



			Iâ€™m playing a bit of a â€œbanditâ€ in the clubs pairs KO on Sat. He is an ex 6 HC who stopped playing a few years ago. Started again 2 years ago, put in new cards to get a 16 HC, has only entered 4 qualifying comps in that time. Won a couple non qualifiers with 42/43 points. He is now at 14 and I see him practising a lot, is only a 5 day member, but doesnâ€™t enter any mid week comps. Part of the club B Team which are non qualifying etc.
		
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Good luck is all I can say here, matey.


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## 94tegsi (Jun 19, 2019)

Thanks, I think I might need it! Ha


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## 2blue (Jun 19, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Not sure how easy it is to do without being underhand. But then I'm not overly up on how the workings behind the Central Database is sorted out.

Surely there are criteria that have to be input to create the unique record. But as members we just provide what's asked to those in power and voila out comes a handicap and CDH number. But the interesting part of that is *I guess its down to the honesty of the person providing the information.*

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Yes, completely  their responsibility & down to them to divulge their playing history...â€¦.  certainly NOT, "Did the Club ask the right questions or make sufficient searches!!" We have something similar going at the moment but without the swindle issues. In my experience Clubs will find reasons to "To let things go" rather than cause a fuss.....  rather letting down their established membership.


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## Wolf (Jun 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yes, completely  their responsibility & down to them to divulge their playing history...â€¦.  certainly NOT, "Did the Club ask the right questions or make sufficient searches!!" We have something similar going at the moment but without the swindle issues. In my experience Clubs will find reasons to "To let things go" rather than cause a fuss.....  rather letting down their established membership.
		
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I don't know I'm not part of the membership committee or the person that dealsnwith new member sign ups. From my own experience though it was quite informal, asked me if I had a playing history and was I joining alone. 

Advised them if my history from 9/10 years ago when I stopped playing so was allocated accordingly after 3 cards and a little of my history taken into account.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yes, completely  their responsibility & down to them to divulge their playing history...â€¦.  certainly NOT, "Did the Club ask the right questions or make sufficient searches!!" We have something similar going at the moment but without the swindle issues. In my experience Clubs will find reasons to "To let things go" rather than cause a fuss.....  rather letting down their established membership.
		
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Three questions should cover it.
Where and when was your last club?
What was your last playing handicap.?
Do you have a CDH number.?
If he lies he has something to hide, and no defence.


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## Slime (Jun 19, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



*Three questions should cover it.*
Where and when was your last club?
What was your last playing handicap.?
Do you have a CDH number.?
If he lies he has something to hide, and no defence.
		
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That's four questions.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 19, 2019)

Slime said:



			That's four questions. 

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I can only count to three.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 19, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I can only count to three.
		
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Is that why you're club champ


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 19, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Is that why you're club champ 

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WAS


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## duncan mackie (Jun 19, 2019)

It may be appropriate to highlight the fundamentally integrity based nature of golf.....the opportunities to cheat are huge, and cannot realistically be policed. So if someone isn't going to answer a simple question correctly because they believe it may affect their handicap allocation and on going ability to win (whatever) they are simply playing the wrong game - the end.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jun 19, 2019)

94tegsi said:



			Iâ€™m playing a bit of a â€œbanditâ€ in the clubs pairs KO on Sat. He is an ex 6 HC who stopped playing a few years ago. Started again 2 years ago, put in new cards to get a 16 HC, has only entered 4 qualifying comps in that time. Won a couple non qualifiers with 42/43 points. He is now at 14 and I see him practising a lot, is only a 5 day member, but doesnâ€™t enter any mid week comps. Part of the club B Team which are non qualifying etc.
		
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Could just be an improving player.

On a slightly related note I find qualifiers hard to enter in great volume as I play quite sociable elsewhere. Luckily my performance is relatively consistent but does improve when I actually get to play regularly so could impact handicap. For my last 10 rounds one may be at my club - overseas golf break 4 rounds, course closed so 1 round elsewhere, charity golf day, friend invited me to use a voucher, round at my dads course and a 3 day pairs golf event I entered 9 months ago.

This is way more golf than I normally play and canâ€™t get out more given family and work commitments, but does mean Iâ€™ll go 2-3 months with only 1 round at my home course. Thatâ€™s particularly exceptional but probabky highlights not all can play 10-20 qualifiers in a year.

I want my handicap to get into single figures but I wouldnâ€™t put qualifiers above the range of friends, family and courses I get to play as thatâ€™s one of the things I enjoy about golf.

Not related to the op but to some on expectations of qualifiers and what constitutes a bandit.


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## DeanoMK (Jun 20, 2019)

One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jun 20, 2019)

I'd encourgae him to get a correct handicap as that may mean he's less likely to cheat (if that is what he's doing).

I'd also begin with saying that it may be better to mix up the beginners/high handicappers etc as it's not fair on him to play with them all the time and you learn from playing with different players. That may mean you can check the position.

Final one would be to try and review his cards to sit if for example he did mark the first as a blob or not in the last round.

I probably wouldn't challenge him specifically, unless your dad was certain the score wasn't correct (i.e. can specifically state what he should have put down on a hole), until you've had a chance to check.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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No easy way other than to have a frank and open conversation about what has been seen and reported. Say you'll put him in a different group and suggest its as much for his benefit to show there is nothing going on rather than to catch him out. If he kicks off, make it clear its cheating pure and simple and he'll either not bother in future, tell him to accept the compromise and that if it's seen and reported again he's gone


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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Either find some way of proving your suspicions and deal with your findings or move on to another society. Its that simple.


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## Fish (Jun 20, 2019)

Played an 11 handicapper yesterday after progressing through 3 rounds of a board knockout matchplay competition and got thumped 7&6!

We shook hands on the 12th and he was level gross, he then took his foot off the pedal slightly and finished +3 over 18 holes!

I knew he had a purple round a couple of weeks prior against a friend of mine who plays off 2 and is very consistent, he had to give him 9 shots and he got thumped 6&5 and he was -1 gross through 18 holes!   

The only 2 holes I won were when he didn't hit those 2 greens in regulation and I stole them with pars, others I had to be aggressive with my putts as I was mainly putting for halves and simply delaying the inevitable!

His recent (not playing often enough though) medal rounds are shocking though, high 80's & 90's? 

I've been playing well lately, especially in matchplay, not been beaten for 18 months in the A-team (POTY) and unbeaten in our B-team this season, but I got served up yesterday.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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Presumbly someone else marks his card? Does it not get spotted then? I always check the scores after 9 holes so any discrepancies are picked up then and people can still remember what happened on the 1st or 2nd holes etc. Horribly uncomfortable situation.


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## Slab (Jun 20, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No easy way other than to have a frank and open conversation about what has been seen and reported. Say you'll put him in a different group and suggest its as much for his benefit to show there is nothing going on rather than to catch him out. If he kicks off, make it clear its cheating pure and simple and he'll either not bother in future, tell him to accept the compromise and that if it's seen and reported again he's gone
		
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Wouldnâ€™t recommend this approach ^^^

Deano has no evidence whatsoever (Deanoâ€™s dad, in the same group, didnâ€™t say how many points the guy scored and he was in a position to count hole by hole)

Sure it has to be managed but itâ€™s in no way time for face to face accusations until someone goes out in the same group (under a different guise than _â€˜we think youâ€™re at itâ€™_ ) and actually counts the points scored & the guy running the society is still adamant he scored more


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## Slab (Jun 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumbly someone else marks his card? Does it not get spotted then? I always check the scores after 9 holes so any discrepancies are picked up then and people can still remember what happened on the 1st or 2nd holes etc. Horribly uncomfortable situation.
		
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Yeah I was scoring for a couple of newâ€™ish players last weekend and had to tactfully raise their counting accuracy a couple of times and best to do it before teeing off at the next hole

I always approach it from the assumption that itâ€™s a genuine error/miscount, until overwhelming evidence or actions say otherwise


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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Surely he isnâ€™t doing his own card ? So the simple thing is the guy who is marking his card needs to be sharp and ensure he is getting the score right 

But before any approach etc you need to make sure 100% that something is going on - far too many have cried bandit only to find out the guy is genuine 

Markers are the ones who need to be vigilant when doing anyoneâ€™s scorecard


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## Kellfire (Jun 20, 2019)

Fish said:



			Played an 11 handicapper yesterday after progressing through 3 rounds of a board knockout matchplay competition and got thumped 7&6!

We shook hands on the 12th and he was level gross, he then took his foot off the pedal slightly and finished +3 over 18 holes!

I knew he had a purple round a couple of weeks prior against a friend of mine who plays off 2 and is very consistent, he had to give him 9 shots and he got thumped 6&5 and he was -1 gross through 18 holes!  

The only 2 holes I won were when he didn't hit those 2 greens in regulation and I stole them with pars, others I had to be aggressive with my putts as I was mainly putting for halves and simply delaying the inevitable!

His recent (not playing often enough though) medal rounds are shocking though, high 80's & 90's?

I've been playing well lately, especially in matchplay, not been beaten for 18 months in the A-team (POTY) and unbeaten in our B-team this season, but I got served up yesterday.
		
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If you were POTY for the A team why have you dropped to the B team? Are your club more likely to win the B team league?


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## DeanoMK (Jun 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely he isnâ€™t doing his own card ? So the simple thing is the guy who is marking his card needs to be sharp and ensure he is getting the score right

But before any approach etc you need to make sure 100% that something is going on - far too many have cried bandit only to find out the guy is genuine

Markers are the ones who need to be vigilant when doing anyoneâ€™s scorecard
		
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He isn't marking his own card but I'm fairly sure it's a case of whoever is marking it asks what he got and marks it rather than them actually counting the shots.

Unfortunately I'm fairly sure he's not genuine - the couple of times someone has played with him that can keep an eye on his score, he has a 'bad day' and comes in with low to mid 20s. We have a winter society that he's in, that's run by someone else and I've never seen him post a good score, always cites it's because he can't play in the winter as it's too soft.


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## Flubster (Jun 20, 2019)

Thesociety I played in was great, never seemed to be won by the same players but they calculated their own handicaps based on previous society performance, if you won by a few clear points from the average you would get a cut and have to play out of your skin for the next few games to stand a chance. It was all about fun not cheating. As a lot of the members didn't play club golf and some would be very inconsistent it seemed a better way then using proper calculations for the handicaps. The only real issue was a few newbies coming in and winning the first time because of the "28" handicap they had when 3 months later they were down to 15-18. if hes winning all the time and hitting mid 30's he needs his society handicap cut and review how you score in the society going forward. Good one for the AGM.


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## rksquire (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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37 is a good score off 9 with 3 blobs.... it is possible though, but he essentially managed to get 37 points from a possible 39 given he only had 15 holes to get them on (9 x 3 points plus 6 x 2 points).... ie from the 15 scoring holes he parred 13 of them and bogeyed 2 (or offset this with other birdies / eagles etc.)  

In our society the cards are randomly drawn out for the groupings.  But even so, the cuts for wins are drastic - we have guys playing off 8 for example with a genuine handicap of 15; mine is 5 lower - last month I squeaked 30 points, course was difficult  and came in 2nd (winner had 35) - lost another society stroke!  Didn't feature this month (26 points), but society golf is about enjoying it and making sure people giving up their time and money all have a good chance of a prize.


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## Slime (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - *how would you handle the situation?*

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I'd make sure that I'd not only be playing with him but I'd also be marking his card at the next society day.
I'd NEVER call someone out for cheating unless I'd actually witnessed it myself and was 100% positive that it was deliberate cheating.


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## Wolf (Jun 20, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No easy way other than to have a frank and open conversation about what has been seen and reported. Say you'll put him in a different group and suggest its as much for his benefit to show there is nothing going on rather than to catch him out. If he kicks off, make it clear its cheating pure and simple and he'll either not bother in future, tell him to accept the compromise and that if it's seen and reported again he's gone
		
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This is quite possibly the worst way you could go about it and to me seems a little forum bravado. 

You cannot categorically call someone a cheat to their face without any evidence and not expect some sort of comebacks. You'll either end up in an unnecessary confrontation with the guy or alienate yourself from a large group of others that don't wish to be dragged into it. You will also damage the structure and undertones of the society which surely nobody wants. 

By all means chat with the guy but I'd suggest it's more of a we haven't played together in a while let's make sure we're out together next time, then when it comes time to swap cards you get his. Problem solved if he then wants to pull a cheeky one and fiddle his numbers you can approach it there and then in a respectable manner of come on mate that's not right and correct his score he will then know he's been caught out and if he does it in future then you have your right and proof to bring it up in front of others. 

Going in as the big man calling someone out straight away when nobody has proven it is not the way.


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## Fish (Jun 20, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If you were POTY for the A team why have you dropped to the B team? Are your club more likely to win the B team league? 

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2 reasons, firstly the captaincy changed and his early selections were all his mates who had only just joined, and both the ex-capt and myself, who didn't miss a single match for over 18 months prior, were both subs for the opening match! Secondly they mainly play on Tuesdays where I now have a long run (job) that day starts at 5am, so I'm playing B-team games on Thursdays mainly which now suits me better.

I only helped out initially for the A-team 2 years ago, but with players always difficult to commit, I ended up playing all the time and enjoyed it, many clubs in our area don't have handicap restrictions for the various teams they have, quite a few now only have a combined A/B team so you can be up against any level of player even though you may be a single capper in the A team, the only exception is the scratch team which are all Cat1 or lower.

I was playing for the COGGS (seniors) also but that's on Fridays so the same reason as Tuesdays I've had to drop out of that also.


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## Kellfire (Jun 20, 2019)

Fish said:



			2 reasons, firstly the captaincy changed and his early selections were all his mates who had only just joined, and both the ex-capt and myself, who didn't miss a single match for over 18 months prior, were both subs for the opening match! Secondly they mainly play on Tuesdays where I now have a long run (job) that day starts at 5am, so I'm playing B-team games on Thursdays mainly which now suits me better.

I only helped out initially for the A-team 2 years ago, but with players always difficult to commit, I ended up playing all the time and enjoyed it, many clubs in our area don't have handicap restrictions for the various teams they have, quite a few now only have a combined A/B team so you can be up against any level of player even though you may be a single capper in the A team, the only exception is the scratch team which are all Cat1 or lower.
		
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Fair dos, mate. I didnâ€™t actually think you were fiddling the leagues!


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## Crazyface (Jun 20, 2019)

Wolf said:



			This is quite possibly the worst way you could go about it and to me seems a little forum bravado.

You cannot categorically call someone a cheat to their face without any evidence and not expect some sort of comebacks. You'll either end up in an unnecessary confrontation with the guy or alienate yourself from a large group of others that don't wish to be dragged into it. You will also damage the structure and undertones of the society which surely nobody wants.

By all means chat with the guy but I'd suggest it's more of a we haven't played together in a while let's make sure we're out together next time, then when it comes time to swap cards you get his. Problem solved if he then wants to pull a cheeky one and fiddle his numbers you can approach it there and then in a respectable manner of come on mate that's not right and correct his score he will then know he's been caught out and if he does it in future then you have your right and proof to bring it up in front of others.

Going in as the big man calling someone out straight away when nobody has proven it is not the way.
		
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Wow, are you in the diplomatic core?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 20, 2019)

In the society I played in if you won you lost two shots.
We went up .5 if you didnâ€™t make par .
So I was of 6 won twice so off 2.
It would take time to get shots back so prizes were spread about.
Worked well for us.


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## Wolf (Jun 20, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Wow, are you in the diplomatic core? 

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Not diplomatic corps more like Ex Royal Marine. But that being said I'm just not arrogant enough to think it's OK to act like a big man and accuse people of cheating without proof. Especially when that accusation could have knock on effects for the rest of the society causing unnecessary issues.

Get the proof first, then be as direct as you want. Going into battle without true facts and armed only with arrogance is a sure way to lose.


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## Slab (Jun 20, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Not diplomatic corps more like Ex Royal Marine. But that being said I'm just not arrogant enough to think it's OK to act like a big man and accuse people of cheating without proof. Especially when that accusation could have knock on effects for the rest of the society causing unnecessary issues.

*Get the proof first, then be as direct as you want. Going into battle without true facts and armed only with arrogance is a sure way to lose*.
		
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Who knew Sun Tzu played golf!


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## Wolf (Jun 20, 2019)

Slab said:



			Who knew Sun Tzu played golf! 

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Who knew aye ðŸ˜‚ ironically that's not a Sun Tzu quote. That's all Wolf made but I can see why you may think it was because he was a great man and philosopher to


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## Rlburnside (Jun 20, 2019)

Few years ago I lost on countback in a society to a young lad playing off 28 who had 2 five pointers in his round,never saw him again, personally I wouldn't like to play any higher than my club handicap in a society, I understand not everyone is a member of a club but when you lose as I have ,to a player 4 shots more than his official h/c it doesn't seem right.


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## patricks148 (Jun 20, 2019)

Luckily we don;t have society's as such up here, have played in some charity/work days which have been won by out and out cheats.

One guy won one of them with 40 something points, which was a works  do i was a guest at, said he wasn't a member of a club any longer and hadn't played for a couple of years so they let him play off 28. won a load of prizes.  turned out he was a member of the club in the village and was off 18, disturbing thing was he worked with all these guys and was still happy to cheat them out of the prizes.

The Other was a charity game at Fortrose, again a guy said he didn't have a handicap or played in years, so they let him play off 28, shot something in the low 70 Gross, cleaned up. turned out he was off 10 the year before....  get invited to this one every year never been back since


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## Rlburnside (Jun 20, 2019)

Shocking,even worse he works with them, no wonder you donâ€™t go back.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 20, 2019)

DeanoMK said:



			One for you all - the guy that runs a work golf society I'm in plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap. He always comes in with 30+ points but he never puts himself in the groups with people that are either going to keep an eye on his scoring or are capable to, he's always out with the guys that are either new to the game, the society or are high handicaps.

My dad came along once and was in the group with said guy - who once again came in with over 30 points (I think it was 37 that day) but we all saw blob the first. My dad said that this guy had blobbed at least 2 other holes and was all over the place.

This is our 3rd year of running the comp and the 4 best scores from 8 or so comps are what are used to determine the standings, and this guy has won 2 years in a row and is already top of this years standings - we all kind of make a joke about it now but it's really starting to grate me now - how would you handle the situation?
		
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Am I missing something here?  The post suggests he "plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap".  So hes playing off less than he'd be entitled to. And is then accused of cheating? The other way round (ie plays off 12-14 but is really a 9) then I'd see the point?


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## DeanoMK (Jun 20, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Am I missing something here?  The post suggests he "plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap".  So hes playing off less than he'd be entitled to. And is then accused of cheating? The other way round (ie plays off 12-14 but is really a 9) then I'd see the point?
		
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Yup, you've got it spot on - and it would be slightly easier to take the other way around but it's a bravado/ego thing, that 9 makes him the lowest handicap in the group and then he just embellishes his scores. I guess if it was the other way around, it would be easier to call him out on it and that maybe is another reason why he claims he's a 9.


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## Orikoru (Jun 20, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Am I missing something here?  The post suggests he "plays off of 9, but in reality he's probably a 12-14 handicap".  So hes playing off less than he'd be entitled to. And is then accused of cheating? The other way round (ie plays off 12-14 but is really a 9) then I'd see the point?
		
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I think he meant that he's not even good enough to play off 9, yet he 'miraculously' still scores 37 points off it. So he must be using some creative accounting so to speak.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 21, 2019)

Ah, ok. Now I get it ...


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## OnTour (Jun 21, 2019)

Our place has 0-12 for cat 1 prizes and an open field for stablefords. makes it hard work to pick up and with css -2 on the card also get cut for a good solid round. same old faces winnng most weeks do everything well yetplay off 14!


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## duncan mackie (Jun 21, 2019)

OnTour said:



			Our place has 0-12 for cat 1 prizes and an open field for stablefords. makes it hard work to pick up and with css -2 on the card also get cut for a good solid round. same old faces winnng most weeks do everything well yetplay off 14!
		
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CSS -2?


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## rosecott (Jun 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			CSS -2?
		
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I think he means SSS is 2 lower than par.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 21, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I think he means SSS is 2 lower than par.
		
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ðŸ¤” ta, but don't understand the relevance  (as in par is irrelevant to anything in practice!)


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## rosecott (Jun 21, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			ðŸ¤” ta, but don't understand the relevance  (as in par is irrelevant to anything in practice!)
		
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Possibly thinking 2 under par should be good enough to get a cut.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 21, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Possibly thinking 2 under par should be good enough to get a cut.
		
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2 under an appropriate par should be ðŸ¤—....which is to be found entitled ''SSS" at most courses ðŸ¤”


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## Dannyc (Jun 22, 2019)

I played a lad in the week off 13 I had to give 7 shots 9/10s of the difference 
He beat me on the 14th at that point he was 1 over gross with some lovely golf shots and a great swing 
I asked him in the bar why are u playing off that handicap he said I was off 6 and stopped playing while I went university for 3 years Iâ€™ve just come back playing again 
Surely old handicaps have to be looked at when they are putting fresh cards in


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## duncan mackie (Jun 22, 2019)

Dannyc said:



			I played a lad in the week off 13 I had to give 7 shots 9/10s of the difference
He beat me on the 14th at that point he was 1 over gross with some lovely golf shots and a great swing
I asked him in the bar why are u playing off that handicap he said I was off 6 and stopped playing while I went university for 3 years Iâ€™ve just come back playing again
Surely old handicaps have to be looked at when they are putting fresh cards in
		
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Yes they do  - which was the whole starting point to this thread.

Exactly how is down to committee- your case is pretty common.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2019)

Dannyc said:



			Surely old handicaps have to be looked at when they are putting fresh cards in
		
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They do but as this thread has highlighted many committees simply don;t seem to either ask the relevant questions, seem overly bothered or even try to look into the matter further. I don't know a simple answer and sadly its going to keep happening


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## duncan mackie (Jun 22, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			They do but as this thread has highlighted many committees simply don;t seem to either ask the relevant questions, seem overly bothered or even try to look into the matter further. I don't know a simple answer and sadly its going to keep happening
		
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Nothing in this thread says that committees don't ask the relevant questions....or are we looking at different threads?

You can't look further into something unless you know where to look, which requires that information from the new member as they are required to provide - CDH isn't set up for wide random searches; you need a club.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 22, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Nothing in this thread says that committees don't ask the relevant questions....or are we looking at different threads?

You can't look further into something unless you know where to look, which requires that information from the new member as they are required to provide - CDH isn't set up for wide random searches; you need a club.
		
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Surely !!!,  the governing body ?? , should be able to recognise/ identify/ highlight any name that has been previously registered


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## rosecott (Jun 22, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Surely !!!,  the governing body ?? , should be able to recognise/ identify/ highlight any name that has been previously registered 

Click to expand...

Hello CDH, we have a new member called John Smith.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 22, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Hello CDH, we have a new member called John Smith.
		
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Same age , same address , maybe providing your actual national insurance number might be the answer instead of a useless CDH number


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## duncan mackie (Jun 23, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Same age , same address , maybe providing your actual national insurance number might be the answer instead of a useless CDH number 

Click to expand...

You are confusing things by jumping from implications that the existing structure can be suitably searched to suggestions on how it could be modified to do so.

Golf is a game that fundamentally depends on the players integrity - handicapping follows.

If it's absent then they are playing the wrong game. It's not about it policing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Nothing in this thread says that committees don't ask the relevant questions....or are we looking at different threads?

You can't look further into something unless you know where to look, which requires that information from the new member as they are required to provide - CDH isn't set up for wide random searches; you need a club.
		
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Its my opinion from the comments on here that some clubs are only interested in getting the members to sign up and get the cash and so don't ask too many questions. If the CDH isn't available to check across the board the club is always going to struggle to verify the information. As an aside (and I don't know, hence the question) can you search for a CDH based on name or current club?


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## rosecott (Jun 23, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Its my opinion from the comments on here that some clubs are only interested in getting the members to sign up and get the cash and so don't ask too many questions. If the CDH isn't available to check across the board the club is always going to struggle to verify the information. As an aside (and I don't know, hence the question) can you search for a CDH based on name or current club?
		
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Registered club officials (Secretary/Manager, Handicap Secretary etc) can search using at least 2 of club/name/handicap.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Registered club officials (Secretary/Manager, Handicap Secretary etc) can search using at least 2 of club/name/handicap.
		
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Thanks for clarifying that. If someone has a CDH, then leaves a club and doesn't rejoin another for say five years, does the system still hold the info so you could look at name and club (and would it bring the last registered club?). If so then surely clubs have an obligation to everyone playing competitions to ensure new members back history is checked and taken into account when three cards are put in


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## Siolag (Jun 23, 2019)

How does a handicap committee catch up with improving players? Im currently on 32, but my FiancÃ© and I are about to embark on a long series of lessons and put some serious time into improving. Say we spend the winter doing so, and really are much better players coming into spring, will 2-3 much improved scores in medals result in a big cut? Having said that, I have a fair degree of fame (or infamy) as a result of my first medal being a 162, so I am sure I wouldn't be accused of banditry.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2019)

Siolag said:



			How does a handicap committee catch up with improving players? Im currently on 32, but my FiancÃ© and I are about to embark on a long series of lessons and put some serious time into improving. Say we spend the winter doing so, and really are much better players coming into spring, will 2-3 much improved scores in medals result in a big cut? Having said that, I have a fair degree of fame (or infamy) as a result of my first medal being a 162, so I am sure I wouldn't be accused of banditry.
		
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In my opinion, if you have put your cards in and are regularly playing in competitions your handicap will be representative of where your ability is. However if you are taking lessons and working hard on your game then you would hope to see some improvement to your handicap. I would simply play the competitions, put the scores in and let the system take care of the cuts and improvements. If you hit a real purple patch then the handicap secretary can invoke an ESR which is an additional cut based on play


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## duncan mackie (Jun 24, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Thanks for clarifying that. If someone has a CDH, then leaves a club and doesn't rejoin another for say five years, does the system still hold the info so you could look at name and club (and would it bring the last registered club?). If so then surely clubs have an obligation to everyone playing competitions to ensure new members back history is checked and taken into account when three cards are put in
		
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You have just been advised that if you don't have the previous club you can't check a back history...which is why clubs ask the questions they ask, but are effectively powerless if the player fails to respond. Every clubs membership application that I've seen asks the questions.
Nothing to do with money grabbing (by the clubs).


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## *TQ* (Jun 24, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			In my opinion, if you have put your cards in and are regularly playing in competitions your handicap will be representative of where your ability is. However if you are taking lessons and working hard on your game then you would hope to see some improvement to your handicap. I would simply play the competitions, put the scores in and let the system take care of the cuts and improvements. If you hit a real purple patch then the handicap secretary can invoke an ESR which is an additional cut based on play
		
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The ESR would be mandatory as far as I'm aware and triggered automatically following two scores of at least four under handicap within a twelve month period.

I'm in a similar boat, I was playing off 36 and still not winning but had a few lessons and recently won twice (including 25 points in a nine hole comp) and my handicap is coming down fast, unfortunately my game is still a bit hit and miss and I went back up by 0.1 last week (to 30.7). 

My advice would be to keep playing comps and then your handicap will be as accurate as it can be and people will see your ability changing lessening the chance of any 'bandit' accusations (in the bar after my 25 points was a guy I had played with a month or two before where I'd shot 14 points in the same 9 hole rollup who was delighted to see I was improving, bowling up and shooting 25 points for nine holes when you don't know anyone is a recipe for nasty comments!).


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2019)

*TQ* said:



			The ESR would be mandatory as far as I'm aware and triggered automatically following two scores of at least four under handicap within a twelve month period.

I'm in a similar boat, I was playing off 36 and still not winning but had a few lessons and recently won twice (including 25 points in a nine hole comp) and my handicap is coming down fast, unfortunately my game is still a bit hit and miss and I went back up by 0.1 last week (to 30.7).

My advice would be to keep playing comps and then your handicap will be as accurate as it can be and people will see your ability changing lessening the chance of any 'bandit' accusations (in the bar after my 25 points was a guy I had played with a month or two before where I'd shot 14 points in the same 9 hole rollup who was delighted to see I was improving, bowling up and shooting 25 points for nine holes when you don't know anyone is a recipe for nasty comments!).
		
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Op is in Scotland no ESR here.


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## rosecott (Jun 24, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			In my opinion, if you have put your cards in and are regularly playing in competitions your handicap will be representative of where your ability is. However if you are taking lessons and working hard on your game then you would hope to see some improvement to your handicap. I would simply play the competitions, put the scores in and let the system take care of the cuts and improvements. If you hit a real purple patch then the handicap secretary can invoke an ESR which is an additional cut based on play
		
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You cannot "invoke" ESR. The recorded scores either trigger then complete the process or they don't.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 24, 2019)

*TQ* said:



			The ESR would be mandatory as far as I'm aware and triggered automatically following two scores of at least four under handicap within a twelve month period.
		
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on the basis that the players club is in the area of their forum 'address' there wont be any ESR applied. The SGU has mandated that the ESR process must not be applied.

this doesn't rule out an adjustment - only the application of that process.


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## Roops (Jun 24, 2019)

The whole "I used to play off 6 3 years ago, but haven't played for a bit" is a nonsense. In my eyes, if you were off 6, then you restart at 6. Irrespective of any reason, your handicap will adjust as you play in comps, that's the whole point of getting back .1 when you are outside your buffer. I have played with a guy who was around 4 handicap, he now plays probably once every other year. He still has the ability to absolutely stripe it, and it's a joy to watch and play with him. I don't believe you lose the ability unless you have a physical disability that affects your swing.


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## Orikoru (Jun 24, 2019)

Roops said:



			The whole "I used to play off 6 3 years ago, but haven't played for a bit" is a nonsense. In my eyes, if you were off 6, then you restart at 6. Irrespective of any reason, your handicap will adjust as you play in comps, that's the whole point of getting back .1 when you are outside your buffer. I have played with a guy who was around 4 handicap, he now plays probably once every other year. He still has the ability to absolutely stripe it, and it's a joy to watch and play with him. I don't believe you lose the ability unless you have a physical disability that affects your swing.
		
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I'm not sure about that. I think if you were off 4 or 5 then didn't play for a year, you'd really struggle to play to that. Going up 0.1 at a time can't all that fun when you should really be 3 shots higher.


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2019)

Roops said:



			The whole "I used to play off 6 3 years ago, but haven't played for a bit" is a nonsense. In my eyes, if you were off 6, then you restart at 6. Irrespective of any reason, your handicap will adjust as you play in comps, that's the whole point of getting back .1 when you are outside your buffer. I have played with a guy who was around 4 handicap, he now plays probably once every other year. He still has the ability to absolutely stripe it, and it's a joy to watch and play with him. I don't believe you lose the ability unless you have a physical disability that affects your swing.
		
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Completely agree.   

It does require the player to be honest about his previous handicap. 

It wouldn't take a player long to get his eye in again. When he does, he would hammer the field if given a handful of extra shots.


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2019)

If you played off 6 and didnt play for a year then you dont really deserve to rock up and take a win without any effort put in with extra shots.


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## IanM (Jun 24, 2019)

Used to be a bloke in Wiltshire in the 90s, turned up at new club, 3 cards in, off about 24.... won lots of vouchers, got to about 16...then moved.  Resurfaced at a new club...did the same... I knew of him at 3 different clubs around that time.  I wonder how long it went on!


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## Roops (Jun 24, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			If you played off 6 and didnt play for a year then you dont really deserve to rock up and take a win without any effort put in with extra shots.
		
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That's exactly what I think. I play cricket, if I haven' played for a while when I come in to bat I don't get a few pies thrown down to get my eye in, the bowler steams in and lets rip at full speed, the fact that I haven't played for a while is a matter for me..........


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2019)

why would you want to be a 14 handicap if you had been of 6 the year before unless you where at it


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## Siolag (Jun 24, 2019)

I am indeed in Scotland. I will be playing in as many competitions as I can, as I really enjoy getting out and playing with different people. 

I would agree that anyone playing off of 6 should not really get too many extra shots even after a break. A 6 handicap implies significant time spent playing the game and therefore only needing some sharpening up.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jun 24, 2019)

Roops said:



			That's exactly what I think. I play cricket, if I haven' played for a while when I come in to bat I don't get a few pies thrown down to get my eye in, the bowler steams in and lets rip at full speed, the fact that I haven't played for a while is a matter for me..........
		
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Not really the right analogy as cricket isn't a game with handicaps to try to create a level playing field.
Surely a closer analogy would be that you used to be firsts/professional, and hadn't played for a couple of years, then you wouldn't expect to walk into that team but instead start in seconds or thirds i.e. taken into account it will take time to get your eye in.


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## Roops (Jun 24, 2019)

I think the point I was trying to make, was that I don't expect any special treatment or "Assistance" because I haven't played for a while. I think the same should apply to golf, you left at 6, you restart at 6 irrespective and just get on with it. Your handicap will find it's own level in time. A good handicap committee should be able to address any shot requirements during the review if the handicap is not deemed sufficient to be competitive.


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## 94tegsi (Jun 25, 2019)

94tegsi said:



			Iâ€™m playing a bit of a â€œbanditâ€ in the clubs pairs KO on Sat. He is an ex 6 HC who stopped playing a few years ago. Started again 2 years ago, put in new cards to get a 16 HC, has only entered 4 qualifying comps in that time. Won a couple non qualifiers with 42/43 points. He is now at 14 and I see him practising a lot, is only a 5 day member, but doesnâ€™t enter any mid week comps. Part of the club B Team which are non qualifying etc.
		
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Well, I ended up playing out of my skin and we thrashed them... seems Iâ€™m the bandit!


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## Dando (Jun 25, 2019)

94tegsi said:



			Well, I ended up playing out of my skin and we thrashed them... seems Iâ€™m the bandit! 

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we knew that already mate!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2019)

Siolag said:



			I am indeed in Scotland. I will be playing in as many competitions as I can, as I really enjoy getting out and playing with different people.

I would agree that anyone playing off of 6 should not really get too many extra shots even after a break. A 6 handicap implies significant time spent playing the game and therefore only needing some sharpening up.
		
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Anyone playing off 6 would also have a very good reason to stop playing though.
Serious Iâ€™ll health being one , knee replacement,Cancer etc.
so 6 is just a figure they may never reach again.
The onus is very much on the player to inform the committee as much as possible so they can make a proper decision based on the facts.


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## 94tegsi (Jun 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			we knew that already mate!
		
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Some of my playing partners from other GM meets would disagree! ðŸ˜‚


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