# WHS - What Clubs need to do / buy???



## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2020)

Hello

I've downloaded the WHS Toolkit, continued publicising WHS to members, using the resources within that Toolkit. However, can anyone tell confirm to me, or point me in the right direction, as to the full requirements, especially in terms of investment from the club. Such as:

Scorecards - we'll obviously need a new design, and can largely specify that ourselves. But, any examples around, to ensure we don't miss anything stupid off the cards?
Index Conversion Charts - I know these are required, but where do we buy them and how much (our Owner has no idea)
Apps - Are these just something that will evolve naturally from what we use already (i.e. Club V1 and howdidido), or will there be further licenses we need to invest in?
Anything else?

Thanks


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## rulefan (Jul 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hello

I've downloaded the WHS Toolkit, continued publicising WHS to members, using the resources within that Toolkit. However, can anyone tell confirm to me, or point me in the right direction, as to the full requirements, especially in terms of investment from the club. Such as:

Scorecards - we'll obviously need a new design, and can largely specify that ourselves. But, any examples around, to ensure we don't miss anything stupid off the cards?
Index Conversion Charts - I know these are required, but where do we buy them and how much (our Owner has no idea)
Apps - Are these just something that will evolve naturally from what we use already (i.e. Club V1 and howdidido), or will there be further licenses we need to invest in?
Anything else?

Thanks
		
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Cards and notices
http://www.eagle.uk.com/WHSinfo.html 

Apps
All the major ISVs have (or will have apps). ClubV1, IG and HandicapMaster (via Golf Genius)


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## jim8flog (Jul 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hello

I've downloaded the WHS Toolkit, continued publicising WHS to members, using the resources within that Toolkit. However, can anyone tell confirm to me, or point me in the right direction, as to the full requirements, especially in terms of investment from the club. Such as:

Scorecards - we'll obviously need a new design, and can largely specify that ourselves. But, any examples around, to ensure we don't miss anything stupid off the cards?
Index Conversion Charts - I know these are required, but where do we buy them and how much (our Owner has no idea)
Apps - Are these just something that will evolve naturally from what we use already (i.e. Club V1 and howdidido), or will there be further licenses we need to invest in?
Anything else?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

 Worth checking what your area Authority/ England golf are going to supply before using the clubs own cash. Apparently when I suggested we get our printing under way I was told there was no need for one item I suggested as the county had stuff in the offing.

We had new cards a couple of months ago and one thing the manager missed is that there is a requirement for 3 boxes for handicaps - Handicap Index, Course Handicap and playing handicap(the old shots allowed) with the WHS.

The Slope indexes need to be on the card.

I am in two minds about whether or not the course rating needs to be on the card for the WHS it is on ours simply because we are using the cards now.


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## rulefan (Jul 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Worth checking what your area Authority/ England golf are going to supply before using the clubs own cash. Apparently when I suggested we get our printing under way I was told there was no need for one item I suggested as the county had stuff in the offing.

We had new cards a couple of months ago and one thing the manager missed is that there is a requirement for 3 boxes for handicaps - Handicap Index, Course Handicap and playing handicap(the old shots allowed) with the WHS.

The Slope indexes need to be on the card.

I am in two minds about whether or not the course rating needs to be on the card for the WHS it is on ours simply because we are using the cards now.
		
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I have been told by EG that only the Course Handicap needs to be on the card. The others are optional. Although they are known by the system, personally I think Playing Handicap would be useful. However, I understand the the ISVs will have the facility to include all on the labels or cards that they can print if the club's system is set up that way.


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## jim8flog (Jul 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have been told by EG that only the Course Handicap needs to be on the card. The others are optional. Although they are known by the system, personally I think Playing Handicap would be useful. However, I understand the the ISVs will have the facility to include all on the labels or cards that they can print if the club's system is set up that way.
		
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 The question comes  if a player has the correct Handicap Index on the card but no other boxes for handicap have been completed will it be DQ or not. Seems a bit harsh if it is.

The briefing went out to our members that the H.I. must be on the card as this is exactly what was said at the workshops in response to the specific question being asked.

My personal view is that having the correct H.I on the card makes the most sense as this figure is 'set in stone' and the other two could be miscalculated or misread off the charts. 

IT will be interesting to see what is shown on the computer screens when entering cards on the PSI system as currently they show playing handicap which has to be confirmed before entering the score.

Will the PSI and APPS show H.I, Course or Playing or 2 or all 3?  

Given that is easy to add these figures from the screen to the card if they are there and before the card is submitted hopefully we will not see any DQs anyway.


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## jim8flog (Jul 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have been told by EG that only the Course Handicap needs to be on the card. The others are optional. Although they are known by the system, personally I think Playing Handicap would be useful. However, I understand the the ISVs will have the facility to include all on the labels or cards that they can print if the club's system is set up that way.
		
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  The other thing I would add
 It is nice to see EG being consistent 

From the Tool kit FAQS
Do I enter competitions using my Handicap Index or my Course Handicap?
Competition entry should be based on your Handicap Index. This will be clarified in
the Terms of Competition.


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## rulefan (Jul 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From the Tool kit FAQS
Do I enter competitions using my Handicap Index or my Course Handicap?
Competition entry should be based on your Handicap Index. This will be clarified in
the Terms of Competition.
		
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That makes sense. If there are limits on entry eg. below 2.0 (for elite comps) or above 15.4 (for Rabbits comps) it has to be on a fixed figure. Index is the only one that is.
Competition winning will depend on the course being played.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2020)

We'll certainly look to have a box for all 3 handicap figures. If it is confirmed which one is related to the Rules of Golf, we'll look to highlight that one maybe. But, there never seems to be a definitive answer, even England Golf were not 100% sure at Workshop. I can see arguments for Index (fixed number, less confusion for player) or Playing (what you actually play off in comp). Course Handicap just seems to float between the 2 and doesn't seem like it should be the one required to avoid DQ


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## rulefan (Jul 28, 2020)

CH was what I got from the head concho.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CH was what I got from the head concho.
		
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Cool, the workshop I attended was at Woodhall Spa, directly by England Golf. However, it was before lockdown, so I'm sure plenty of water has passed under bridge since then.


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## Wildboy370 (Jul 28, 2020)

On a similar note can any one answer the following. Currently if you do not submit your card you are DQ and get 0.1 back.
Under the WHS system I am led to believe the handicap index will be worked out for all rounds played on the course that day not just competition. So what happens if you enter your card as a scoring one before you go out and then do not enter the score ? Apparently for every non score on an NR card it will be calculated as a nett par, so if you do not enter a score at all will the system put you down for a nett par round for handicap purposes ? And therefore could become one of your best 8 which would deter some from doing this.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			On a similar note can any one answer the following. Currently if you do not submit your card you are DQ and get 0.1 back.
Under the WHS system I am led to believe the handicap index will be worked out for all rounds played on the course that day not just competition. So what happens if you enter your card as a scoring one before you go out and then do not enter the score ? Apparently for every non score on an NR card it will be calculated as a nett par, so if you do not enter a score at all will the system put you down for a nett par round for handicap purposes ? And therefore could become one of your best 8 which would deter some from doing this.
		
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I still have to get my head around this, and it will probably depend on why the player NRed. If they were having a stinker and then just NRed, I believe penalty scores can be applied. However, Committees have been asked to have disciplinary procedures for players doing this, because it can be more complicated to deal with compared to current system


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## rulefan (Jul 29, 2020)

There a number of possible actions a committee can take depending on the reasons for not returning a score. Including withdrawing the player's Handicap Index and/or applying an appropriate penalty score (high or low depending on intent). They can also consider disciplinary action for repeat offenders. If the player's score is identifiable it should be posted for handicap purposes (with or without penalties).


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## Old Skier (Jul 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Cards and notices
http://www.eagle.uk.com/WHSinfo.html

Apps
All the major ISVs have (or will have apps). ClubV1, IG and HandicapMaster (via Golf Genius)
		
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Eagle also sent out a voucher to all clubs via England Golf for (I think) £25 off


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## Old Skier (Jul 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			We'll certainly look to have a box for all 3 handicap figures. If it is confirmed which one is related to the Rules of Golf, we'll look to highlight that one maybe. But, there never seems to be a definitive answer, even England Golf were not 100% sure at Workshop. I can see arguments for Index (fixed number, less confusion for player) or Playing (what you actually play off in comp). Course Handicap just seems to float between the 2 and doesn't seem like it should be the one required to avoid DQ
		
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If we move more towards an electronic scores entry system hopefully all of this will become irrelevant.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If we move more towards an electronic scores entry system hopefully all of this will become irrelevant.
		
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The R&A would need to remove the rule regarding scorecards though.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Eagle also sent out a voucher to all clubs via England Golf for (I think) £25 off
		
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Yeah, I think it was £40 off

Does anyone know how much these Conversion Charts cost? Say for just the board, and then the sign (say for erecting near the 1st tee)? What else will clubs be investing in?


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## rulefan (Jul 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The R&A would need to remove the rule regarding scorecards though.
		
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They made the provision in the 2019 Rules.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have been told by EG that only the Course Handicap needs to be on the card. The others are optional. Although they are known by the system, personally I think Playing Handicap would be useful. However, I understand the the ISVs will have the facility to include all on the labels or cards that they can print if the club's system is set up that way.
		
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I've just been looking at scorecard examples for WHS, and stumbled across Aguilon Members Club in Spain. They only have one handicap on card, and it is "Playing Handicap" (I'm not sure if this is pre or post WHS). However, this just seems to be getting confusing, if England Golf are saying it must be Course Handicap, yet other countries seem to specifically have Playing Handicap on cards.

Also, will clubs be having CR and BR on cards? And, will they put the front and back 9 Slope information on card as well as full 18?


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## jim8flog (Jul 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CH was what I got from the head concho.
		
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 I had thought about a potential problem if it is CH where I play particularly for early starters.

We have two greens on  hole 16 and and different tees as appropriate for hole 17. There is s a different Slope Index depending on which are in play. The decision on which are used is weather dependent and will be made by the greenstaff which is in use during their morning working session and sometimes it will get changed during the day. I do not know at which point they notify the office (which does not open until about 8.30 - 9 ish and does not open on a Sunday)  to relay this information.

Early morning and sometimes later players will not know which green is in use until they arrive at the 16th tee.

If it is not known in advance which is going to be used all comps are set up for the longer course and only get get changed/altered  as necessary when the cards are being entered and the comp is being finalised at weekends on the Monday.

I also see this being a problem with all scores being uploaded on the day they are entered and a wrong course conditions calculation being made as the difference between the two is 2 shots (the par 5 becomes par 4 and the par 4 becomes par 3).

P.S. earlier you mentioned about stickers being done for cards. This probably will no longer happen. The earliest that a players H.I. for the day is known will be 12.01 am . I cannot see clubs having someone in the office at that time time of day just to print labels. It is something we had already discussed on our committee and realised that in future players will be responsible for recording their handicaps on cards them self.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had thought about a potential problem if it is CH where I play particularly for early starters.

We have two greens on  hole 16 and and different tees as appropriate for hole 17. There is s a different Slope Index depending on which are in play. The decision on which are used is weather dependent and will be made by the greenstaff which is in use during their morning working session and sometimes it will get changed during the day. I do not know at which point they notify the office (which does not open until about 8.30 - 9 ish and does not open on a Sunday)  to relay this information.

Early morning and sometimes later players will not know which green is in use until they arrive at the 16th tee.

If it is not known in advance which is going to be used all comps are set up for the longer course and only get get changed/altered  as necessary when the cards are being entered and the comp is being finalised at weekends on the Monday.

I also see this being a problem with all scores being uploaded on the day they are entered and a wrong course conditions calculation being made as the difference between the two is 2 shots (the par 5 becomes par 4 and the par 4 becomes par 3).

P.S. earlier you mentioned about stickers being done for cards. This probably will no longer happen. The earliest that a players H.I. for the day is known will be 12.01 am . I cannot see clubs having someone in the office at that time time of day just to print labels. It is something we had already discussed on our committee and realised that in future players will be responsible for recording their handicaps on cards them self.
		
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Very unusual issue. However, surely by the time the players have finished their round, they'll know the course they played, and can check their course handicap accordingly? (Note, even though, based on my last comments, I'm not convinced Course Handicap is the best one to potentially be DQ'ed on)


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## jim8flog (Jul 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Very unusual issue. However, surely by the time the players have finished their round, they'll know the course they played, and can check their course handicap accordingly? (Note, even though, based on my last comments, I'm not convinced Course Handicap is the best one to potentially be DQ'ed on)
		
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I agree with the point and had thought about it. Like it is at teh moment players have to check the handicap on their card when they come in because we have so many comps and they will, probably, have been finalised whilst players are on the course in another comp.

Funnily enough I had a discussion with the manager this morning about exactly what happens ( I am never at the course at that time of day) he said the green staff come back to the first tee and put up the notice board as soon as a decision is made, which on most occasions is before the tee opens.


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## jim8flog (Jul 29, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			On a similar note can any one answer the following. Currently if you do not submit your card you are DQ and get 0.1 back.
Under the WHS system I am led to believe the handicap index will be worked out for all rounds played on the course that day not just competition. So what happens if you enter your card as a scoring one before you go out and then do not enter the score ? Apparently for every non score on an NR card it will be calculated as a nett par, so if you do not enter a score at all will the system put you down for a nett par round for handicap purposes ? And therefore could become one of your best 8 which would deter some from doing this.
		
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*For handicap purposes, the following will apply when WHS commences.  *

•If playing an 18 hole round and the player completes more than 9 holes, the score is added to the players handicap record.

 •If playing a 9 hole round *all* holes must be played.

(If playing a Stableford competition No Score may be recorded on a hole)

•If the minimum number of holes have not played or recorded on the scorecard the score is discarded and not included in the player’s handicap record.

The score for hole may be adjusted:  (This means adjusted by the computer software and not by the player).

• Any hole where the score is more than a Net Double Bogey the score will be adjusted to that figure. (the same as the existing system).

*Or*

•If all holes have not been played or recorded on the scorecard, recording a Net Par on the holes not played. Exception: if less than 14 holes of an 18 hole round have been played, net par + 1 stroke must be added to the first hole not played and net par to the remaining un-played holes.

These adjustments are made using the Course Handicap.

If the card has not been returned the committee has to find out why and take appropriate action. If the score can be determined it will be entered as above.


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## rulefan (Jul 29, 2020)

I expect to see CR and Slope but not BR


Swango1980 said:



			I've just been looking at scorecard examples for WHS, and stumbled across Aguilon Members Club in Spain. They only have one handicap on card, and it is "Playing Handicap" (I'm not sure if this is pre or post WHS). However, this just seems to be getting confusing, if England Golf are saying it must be Course Handicap, yet other countries seem to specifically have Playing Handicap on cards.

Also, will clubs be having CR and BR on cards? And, will they put the front and back 9 Slope information on card as well as full 18?
		
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I expect to see CR and Slope but not BR (and or 9 holes if rated)


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## rulefan (Jul 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had thought about a potential problem if it is CH where I play particularly for early starters.

We have two greens on  hole 16 and and different tees as appropriate for hole 17. There is s a different Slope Index depending on which are in play. The decision on which are used is weather dependent and will be made by the greenstaff which is in use during their morning working session and sometimes it will get changed during the day. I do not know at which point they notify the office (which does not open until about 8.30 - 9 ish and does not open on a Sunday)  to relay this information.

Early morning and sometimes later players will not know which green is in use until they arrive at the 16th tee.

If it is not known in advance which is going to be used all comps are set up for the longer course and only get get changed/altered  as necessary when the cards are being entered and the comp is being finalised at weekends on the Monday.

I also see this being a problem with all scores being uploaded on the day they are entered and a wrong course conditions calculation being made as the difference between the two is 2 shots (the par 5 becomes par 4 and the par 4 becomes par 3).

P.S. earlier you mentioned about stickers being done for cards. This probably will no longer happen. The earliest that a players H.I. for the day is known will be 12.01 am . I cannot see clubs having someone in the office at that time time of day just to print labels. It is something we had already discussed on our committee and realised that in future players will be responsible for recording their handicaps on cards them self.
		
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How do you register that you are entering/starting the round? Do you not have PSI terminals?


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## jim8flog (Jul 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How do you register that you are entering/starting the round? Do you not have PSI terminals?
		
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We sign up on line, use the app or sign the book in the proshop. If you have signed up online or via the app you are also required to sign in in the proshop to confirm you will be playing and you will given a competition number. This number is then used to verify all cards have been returned and if not whose is missing.  In the current circumstances we are also required to notify the proshop we are playing for social golf as well,  for track and trace purposes.

We only have one PSI terminal and that is currently in an area of the club house that has been deemed closed during the current circumstances. There was an intention to install another elsewhere at some point but that has probably been put aside for the time being in the current circumstances.


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## Old Skier (Aug 1, 2020)

Been on the Eagle web sight, cannot find prices of the various boards available. Anyone got any ideas as they haven’t even answered my emails.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Been on the Eagle web sight, cannot find prices of the various boards available. Anyone got any ideas as they haven’t even answered my emails.
		
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I was hoping to find out myself. Awaiting feedback from Committee as to what we think we need, then was going to contact Eagle. Looks like that might be a problem then


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## Old Skier (Aug 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I was hoping to find out myself. Awaiting feedback from Committee as to what we think we need, then was going to contact Eagle. Looks like that might be a problem then
		
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Our county have just emailed out offering clubs assistance with the cost of a SR board up to £250 with the discount voucher which is great but still no response from Eagle.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 4, 2020)

We have had our drafts from Eagle - unfortunately they were wrong but look OK.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 16, 2020)

So:

We've ordered our conversion charts
We've ordered new scorecards
Responded to England Golf Email to enter our course details on their platform
We've put WHS posters up at club (although no golfers have actually been very vocal about wanting to know more, I guess most are just ignoring it and see what happens come November).

I'm wondering what else needs to be done, or what other clubs are doing. Questions such as:


At what point will WHS handicaps be calculated and how does club / golfers find out what these are. The 2nd November is the opening date, but I understand golfers will find out their WHS calculation before that
How do we view these WHS handicaps. Will it simply be via the usual methods for golfers (such as howdidido), or do all golfers need to register with another England Golf platform?
Is is correct that a players handicap will also be associated with their personal details such as address? (at moment, it is simply CDH number, player name, handicap, and club).
Our membership renewal is start of August. Our club has still not deleted players who have not rejoined, as they are still getting renewals. Should they be deleted before 2nd November (or earlier), or does it really matter?
Anything else I've not thought of?


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## jim8flog (Sep 16, 2020)

I have not relied on the Toolkit for information notices for members. We have done various briefings that they can view on our website. I have also got two displays in the club with detailed notices which say more than it says what it says in the WHS posters. I have also used  the CONGU posters which contain more detail than the England Golf ones.

I have prepared a guide of where to find a players H.I. (England Golf, Club computer or IG app) how to use this and how to fill in the required details on a card.

I have also prepared a briefing for the new requirements for scores on holes on the scorecard (rule 2.2 and 3.2) in the hope it will get player's out the habit of NRing as soon as they know they will not win.

I spoke to the manager this morning and he does not know when the new software will be available.


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We have had our drafts from Eagle - unfortunately they were wrong but look OK.

View attachment 31865

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Your not the first, all 5 clubs in our area had the same problem. God knows what they are up to.


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I have not relied on the Toolkit for information notices for members. We have done various briefings that they can view on our website. I have also got two displays in the club with detailed notices which say more than it says what it says in the WHS posters. I have also used  the CONGU posters which contain more detail than the England Golf ones.

I have prepared a guide of where to find a players H.I. (England Golf, Club computer or IG app) how to use this and how to fill in the required details on a card.

I have also prepared a briefing for the new requirements for scores on holes on the scorecard (rule 2.2 and 3.2) in the hope it will get player's out the habit of NRing as soon as they know they will not win.

I spoke to the manager this morning and he does not know when the new software will be available.
		
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Toolkits driving me mad


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## jim8flog (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Toolkits driving me mad
		
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 What I have done is to use the logo's 'Know your score' and 'Easy as 123' to create my own posters.

The manager is using the media grahics for our lounge TV display 

One of the problems I found with the toolkit posters was a massive poster that said just one thing hidden away in the corner which left people asking more questions than it answered.

Too much bling and not enough ring.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What I have done is to use the logo's 'Know your score' and 'Easy as 123' to create my own posters.

The manager is using the media grahics for our lounge TV display

One of the problems I found with the toolkit posters was a massive poster that said just one thing hidden away in the corner which left people asking more questions than it answered.

Too much bling and not enough ring.
		
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Unfortunately I am a member of a proprietary club where there is no secretary with any golf knowledge and no real support.  Assuming she passes on the relevant information doesn't work.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

Being absolutely snowed under at work, I'm barely getting a chance to progressively put up posters sequentially as Toolkit recommends, and there appear to be lots of posters, social media graphics.

All I want is to have ONE big poster highlighting WHS is imminent, the very basics of it, and a link so any members really interested in the details themselves can go and read to their hearts content.

Then, I simply want to know what else general golfers, who simply turn up and play golf without really caring about how their handicap is calculated, need to be aware of. So, things like how they will be able to use apps with more functionality, new ways to pre-register supplementary, the importance of not having NR rounds, etc. Also, will golfers need to register with England Golf platform and give their personal details?

I also see England Golf have sent out a disclaimer several pages long, that needs to go to all members, and be given to any member that joins in future. Starting to become painful as more and more info comes through bit by bit, some of which requires action, other bits require no action.


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## Wildboy370 (Sep 27, 2020)

Evening. Hoping I can get some much needed advice. Various members on here mention using apps etc for entering comps,  paying online and entering scores. What app and systems do you use and or recommend ? We currently use the V1 BRS for booking and how did I do for score card entry. But non of these appear to have the payment part. I have asked the club manager to look into maybe getting more parts to these systems which may allow us to do this as I am led to believe we should be able to sign in on HDID and enter a suplimentary card or comp but can’t get this at the moment. We have also contacted Golf England regards an app and how we log players in come Nov 2nd and all we got back was they have an app coming, which is leaving it a bit last minute. 
Any help or pointers would be a great help..


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## rulefan (Sep 27, 2020)

The Ciub V1 app has the facility to pay into different 'purses'. We use 2, Bar & Comps. I gather we will be adding 'Kitchen' soon. 
'Comps' is automatically debited when we enter via V1. And Score Entry is available but we don't use it at the moment. 

As a County we use the Golf Genius app for score entry linked to Handicap Master for competition and handicap management.


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## Wildboy370 (Sep 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The Ciub V1 app has the facility to pay into different 'purses'. We use 2, Bar & Comps. I gather we will be adding 'Kitchen' soon.
'Comps' is automatically debited when we enter via V1. And Score Entry is available but we don't use it at the moment.

As a County we use the Golf Genius app for score entry linked to Handicap Master for competition and handicap management.
		
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Hi thanks for info.
I have the V1 members hub app but no where on the version I have does it give any payment options let alone multiple. I have the members hub, is there another ?


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## rulefan (Sep 28, 2020)

Hit the 3 bar drop down top right. Select Card.
But I can't help much more as I'm out of action and not not playing at the moment so haven't bothered getting to grips with the app.


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## Old Skier (Sep 28, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Hi thanks for info.
I have the V1 members hub app but no where on the version I have does it give any payment options let alone multiple. I have the members hub, is there another ?
		
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Administrators on V1 have to activate the areas in V1 to give you all the benefits that HDID offer.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

Received email from England Golf saying that all members must have DOB and email on whatever HC system clubs are using. Just completed audit on our system and we have a few missing email addresses, on phoning around it’s because most of them don’t have an email address or broadband (if you lived in some areas of N Devon you’d understand why). Before I throw this at EG tomorrow has anyone already brought this up with them or their county and received an answer.

Nonreal explanation as to why on the email other than to ease identification, bavnt they heard of CDH numbers.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Received email from England Golf saying that all members must have DOB and email on whatever HC system clubs are using. Just completed audit on our system and we have a few missing email addresses, on phoning around it’s because most of them don’t have an email address or broadband (if you lived in some areas of N Devon you’d understand why). Before I throw this at EG tomorrow has anyone already brought this up with them or their county and received an answer.

Nonreal explanation as to why on the email other than to ease identification, bavnt they heard of CDH numbers.
		
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It is a pity they sent this email so late in the day. As a volunteer, I have no time to go through all members, and then start chasing those with no email address or DOB. I've asked the owner to look into it.

I presume this data is important to tie people to 1 handicap. Problem with CDH is that many many golfers had multiple CDH numbers, as they never tell a new club they were somewhere else before


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It is a pity they sent this email so late in the day. As a volunteer, I have no time to go through all members, and then start chasing those with no email address or DOB. I've asked the owner to look into it.

I presume this data is important to tie people to 1 handicap. Problem with CDH is that many many golfers had multiple CDH numbers, as they never tell a new club they were somewhere else before
		
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Volunteer also and it’s a nuisance and the multiple CDH issue has been a problem since it’s introduction, I suspect more prevalent in owners clubs like ours. Sometimes I think clubs that insist on interviews for new members a good idea.


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## rosecott (Sep 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Received email from England Golf saying that all members must have DOB and email on whatever HC system clubs are using. Just completed audit on our system and we have a few missing email addresses, on phoning around it’s because most of them don’t have an email address or broadband (if you lived in some areas of N Devon you’d understand why). Before I throw this at EG tomorrow has anyone already brought this up with them or their county and received an answer.

Nonreal explanation as to why on the email other than to ease identification, bavnt they heard of CDH numbers.
		
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The EG email was a little bit of a bombshell for me. Our club has been using Handicapmaster for over 20 years and members' DOB and email addresses have never been entered into the system. EGU now says no DOB or email address by Monday, no Handicap Index. Help!


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The EG email was a little bit of a bombshell for me. Our club has been using Handicapmaster for over 20 years and members' DOB and email addresses have never been entered into the system. EGU now says no DOB or email address by Monday, no Handicap Index. Help!
		
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Speaking to county tomorrow, ridiculous and not required. Right from the start I have been asking EG what provision they are making for those without access to IT with no response.


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## rulefan (Sep 30, 2020)

Clubs were warned some time ago that this info would be required. I am told by our manger that he was aware and that clubs/members had already taken it up re GDPR


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## Swango1980 (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Clubs were warned some time ago that this info would be required. I am told by our manger that he was aware and that clubs/members had already taken it up re GDPR
		
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The message clearly wasn't clear enough. Given the specific email sent yesterday has grabbed attention, it should have been sent a long time ago surely.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Clubs were warned some time ago that this info would be required. I am told by our manger that he was aware and that clubs/members had already taken it up re GDPR
		
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There was information on how GDPR would be handled and how it should be explained and accepted by members but it didnt state that to obtain a handicap index you must have an email address.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Clubs were warned some time ago that this info would be required. I am told by our manger that he was aware and that clubs/members had already taken it up re GDPR
		
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I have just come of the phone with our county secretary and he has had a number of clubs question this and is expecting a response from EG tomorrow.  It's about time EG realise that they work for the clubs and not that clubs work for them.


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## rulefan (Sep 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have just come of the phone with our county secretary and he has had a number of clubs question this and is expecting a response from EG tomorrow.  It's about time EG realise that they work for the clubs and not that clubs work for them.
		
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EG are simply asking clubs to help reduce the time wasted by clubs trying to cope with players' inability to understand the problems they cause when they don't tell their new club the full story.
An example of why clubs and members should also work for EGI estimate that over 50% of handicap tickets raised on the CDH ticket system, that I have dealt with, relate to members changing clubs. This additional data is being asked for to help reduce duplications. 
Incidentally, my club has been recording DoB at least since since we got a computer system and probably before.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			EG are simply asking clubs to help reduce the time wasted by clubs trying to cope with players' inability to understand the problems they cause when they don't tell their new club the full story.
An example of why clubs and members should also work for EGI estimate that over 50% of handicap tickets raised on the CDH ticket system, that I have dealt with, relate to members changing clubs. This additional data is being asked for to help reduce duplications.
Incidentally, my club has been recording DoB at least since since we got a computer system and probably before.
		
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DOB isn’t the issue, its the fact that EG have assumed everyone is on the internet and has an email address and no plan B for those that aren’t/haven’t, an issue that was raised over 2 years ago.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			EG are simply asking clubs to help reduce the time wasted by clubs trying to cope with players' inability to understand the problems they cause when they don't tell their new club the full story.
An example of why clubs and members should also work for EGI estimate that over 50% of handicap tickets raised on the CDH ticket system, that I have dealt with, relate to members changing clubs. This additional data is being asked for to help reduce duplications.
Incidentally, my club has been recording DoB at least since since we got a computer system and probably before.
		
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Firstly I sympathise to some extent that due to the current Covid climate getting stuff done is difficult.

However, giving so little notice is inexcusable to complete an exercise which may be impossible to do in the deadline. The treat of not issuing a HI is just a red rag to a bull!

If the issue is duplicates it was visible long before now and could have been handled in a more structured way - in the same way as a CDH clense and pending members review.

The rushed WHD Data Privacy document and subsequent email look like a rushed measure to add a fig leaf to a problem that EG realise they have. Expecting members to read a 5 page document and confirm they are happy with the details is unrealistic and boarders on cynical (who reads their Apple or Google agreement in detail everytime it pops up?).

I can see this getting ugly if members who pay an affiliation fee to EG are not given a handicap if they don't like the way thet handle their information. I hope i'm wong.

I think early November may be an interesting time and not just for the fireworks.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 30, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Firstly I sympathise to some extent that due to the current Covid climate getting stuff done is difficult.

However, giving so little notice is inexcusable to complete an exercise which may be impossible to do in the deadline. The treat of not issuing a HI is just a red rag to a bull!

If the issue is duplicates it was visible long before now and could have been handled in a more structured way - in the same way as a CDH clense and pending members review.

The rushed WHD Data Privacy document and subsequent email look like a rushed measure to add a fig leaf to a problem that EG realise they have. Expecting members to read a 5 page document and confirm they are happy with the details is unrealistic and boarders on cynical (who reads their Apple or Google agreement in detail everytime it pops up?).

I can see this getting ugly if members who pay an affiliation fee to EG are not given a handicap if they don't like the way thet handle their information. I hope i'm wong.

I think early November may be an interesting time and not just for the fireworks.
		
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I suppose there are a lot of things in life we need to give an e-mail address and DOB to register, so not sure how much an issue it will be overall? I guess there are a very small number of golfers who don't have an e-mail address, so that could be a problem, especially if they have no access to a smart phone or computer.

But, I am gobsmacked that the e-mail from England Golf to tell clubs to get this information only went out yesterday, giving clubs 1 WEEK. Yes, I read somewhere (it may have been on this forum somewhere) at one point that golfers personal details would also be attached to their WHS handicap. However, I half expected it would be a case that golfers would register individually with England Golf portal, and give those details themselves. To find out 1 week before this info is required that is is the clubs responsibility is quite incredible.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I suppose there are a lot of things in life we need to give an e-mail address and DOB to register, so not sure how much an issue it will be overall? *I guess there are a very small number of golfers who don't have an e-mail address, so that could be a problem, especially if they have no access to a smart phone or computer*.

But, I am gobsmacked that the e-mail from England Golf to tell clubs to get this information only went out yesterday, giving clubs 1 WEEK. Yes, I read somewhere (it may have been on this forum somewhere) at one point that golfers personal details would also be attached to their WHS handicap. However, I half expected it would be a case that golfers would register individually with England Golf portal, and give those details themselves. To find out 1 week before this info is required that is is the clubs responsibility is quite incredible.
		
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We have more than I would have thought and they have no intention of getting one. They are happy to use a PSI terminal to enter scores but not any application requiring a smartphone or computer. We are also having issues where partners use a shared eMail address.


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## rulefan (Oct 1, 2020)

I have no idea if it would work but if a member hasn't got or doesn't want to disclose an email address, why not enter the club's email address?
Duplicate/shared email addresses must be very common with spouses.


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## LincolnShep (Oct 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have no idea if it would work but if a member hasn't got or doesn't want to disclose an email address, why not enter the club's email address?
Duplicate/shared email addresses must be very common with spouses.
		
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If duplicate email addresses don't work then it really hasn't been thought through; as you say, lots of couples (esp. older couples) share an address.  Maybe Old Skier should set up NotEveryoneHasAnEmailAddressDumbAss@gmail.com and just use that.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 1, 2020)

LincolnShep said:



			If duplicate email addresses don't work then it really hasn't been thought through; as you say, lots of couples (esp. older couples) share an address.  Maybe Old Skier should set up NotEveryoneHasAnEmailAddressDumbAss@gmail.com and just use that.
		
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I just entered the details for a new junior member who used his Dad's email address. It let me do it with a warning that the system was not secure due to duplicate email addresses.


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## rulefan (Oct 1, 2020)

What about handicapping@englandgolf.org ?


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## rosecott (Oct 1, 2020)

Surprising extract from email just received from Handicapmaster:

Provision of Date of Birth and Email Addresses to England Golf:

For clarity, there is currently no way for email addresses and dates of birth (only "year of birth") to be sent through to England Golf's existing CDH. Their CDH does not have this facility.

HandicapMaster software will not be able to send this information about your members until you have installed our forthcoming WHS-compatible software.

This forthcoming software (HandicapMaster version "10") will be released on 2nd November, in line with the introduction of the World Handicap System. The software will then be able to send this information to the new WHS Platform server.

You will need to enter this information into HandicapMaster, but it is not needed until 2nd November (not 5th October as suggested in a recent England Golf email).


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2020)

Just spent 10 min on phone with England golf.  The cannot get over the concept that not everyone has an email address and that don't use the internet.  Im just going to set up those who haven't got one with the same email address.


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## rulefan (Oct 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just spent 10 min on phone with England golf.  The cannot get over the concept that not everyone has an email address and that don't use the internet.  Im just going to set up those who haven't got one with the same email address.
		
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I suspect it may have to be a legitimate one. eg handicapping@englandgolf.org or info@englandgolf.org


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I suspect it may have to be a legitimate one. eg handicapping@englandgolf.org or info@englandgolf.org 

Click to expand...

Yep but I now have 14 people with the same gmail address


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## LincolnShep (Oct 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep but I now have 14 people with the same gmail address 

Click to expand...

That's cosy, hope they're socially distancing.


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## rosecott (Oct 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Surprising extract from email just received from Handicapmaster:

Provision of Date of Birth and Email Addresses to England Golf:

For clarity, there is currently no way for email addresses and dates of birth (only "year of birth") to be sent through to England Golf's existing CDH. Their CDH does not have this facility.

HandicapMaster software will not be able to send this information about your members until you have installed our forthcoming WHS-compatible software.

This forthcoming software (HandicapMaster version "10") will be released on 2nd November, in line with the introduction of the World Handicap System. The software will then be able to send this information to the new WHS Platform server.

You will need to enter this information into HandicapMaster, but it is not needed until 2nd November (not 5th October as suggested in a recent England Golf email).
		
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It rather looks as if the ISVs are locked in mortal combat with England Golf over this issue. The Golf Club Managers Association have just issued a very long statement on the issue which suggests that things are definitely not cut and dried.


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## rulefan (Oct 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The Golf Club Managers Association have just issued a very long statement on the issue which suggests that things are definitely not cut and dried.
		
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Have you got a link?


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## rosecott (Oct 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you got a link?
		
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Sorry, it was very long email sent to members. earlier this evening.


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## jim8flog (Oct 2, 2020)

Re multiple CDH numbers one thing that was emphasised from the off was the need for clubs to clean their databases. Not as easy as it sound when al clubs were not willig to cooperate. We had a few clubs not 'releasing' their members to us despite multiple emails to them.

I know of quite a few members with husband wife shared emails and recently had a discussion with one about this. Turns out he was wife was deleting the emails before he had read them.

I was in discussion with the club captain yesterday about this issue and he said that we have at least 30 members with no email address on file.  I know of one member who positively refuses to give the club an email address and I know of several that do not have a home computer system.

Not having a computer at home was a big issue with some members when we introduced a requirement for all tee slots to be booked. I did manage to persuade a couple to at least get a smartphone.


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

Ok. No problem.

However, I gather it has now been said "_CDH numbers will become invalid once the WHS is launched and England Golf believe that the CDH number format has been the cause of a large number of duplication issues in the past."_

Do you know if that was from the GCMA?


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## jim8flog (Oct 2, 2020)

Many years ago I used to have an email address of 

ydouneedit@

used for all those that insisted I gave one for no valid reason and I never bothered to read any email sent to that address


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Re multiple CDH numbers one thing that was emphasised from the off was the need for clubs to clean their databases. Not as easy as it sound when al clubs were not willig to cooperate. We had a few clubs not 'releasing' their members to us despite multiple emails to them.

I know of quite a few members with husband wife shared emails and recently had a discussion with one about this. Turns out he was wife was deleting the emails before he had read them.

I was in discussion with the club captain yesterday about this issue and he said that we have at least 30 members with no email address on file.  I know of one member who positively refuses to give the club an email address and I know of several that do not have a home computer system.

Not having a computer at home was a big issue with some members when we introduced a requirement for all tee slots to be booked. I did manage to persuade a couple to at least get a smartphone.
		
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It's some years since I was responsible for maintaining our handicap system but i am told by our manager that ClubV1 a) requires an email address and b) will not accept duplicates.
I don't know about IG or HM (or other ISVs)


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It's some years since I was responsible for maintaining our handicap system but i am told by our manager that ClubV1 a) requires an email address and b) will not accept duplicates.
I don't know about IG or HM (or other ISVs)
		
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V1 will accept duplicate emails although it will give a warning on the security implications to the user, but as the ones I set up wont  be access the email account that wont be an issue.


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

I have just been told that individuals will have a personal ID. I believe along the lines of "National Authority prefix/CDH ID (or similar)"
But logging in will still need an email authentication.


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

https://www.englandgolf.org/world-h...f Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,XDRO,3BWPFO,4541C,1


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

rosecott said:



			It rather looks as if the ISVs are locked in mortal combat with England Golf over this issue. The Golf Club Managers Association have just issued a very long statement on the issue which suggests that things are definitely not cut and dried.
		
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Very poor understanding of GDPR by EG by the looks of things - are things about to grind to a halt.


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Very poor understanding of GDPR by EG by the looks of things - are things about to grind to a halt.
		
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How many websites do you use that us your email address as your login id?


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How many websites do you use that us your email address as your login id?
		
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And I as an individual accept the terms and conditions of that web site as to how they use the web site. EG are asking clubs, not individuals for permission for having email addresses and DOB of members where members haven’t given specific permission.

Im not for or against either way but as I have to deal with GDPR in another life, it’s complicated and EG should have been looking at this and it’s implications a year ago giving clubs time to get the necessary permission from members. It could have been easily done at annual membership renewal.


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

All kicking off on Twitter now. Looking forward to the next instalment from EG.


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## ger147 (Oct 2, 2020)

So all you had to do before to get a handicap was to be a member of an affiliated golf club, hand in your 3 cards then off you go.

But now you also require to have an email address (in England)? When did they decide to add this requirenent?


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

ger147 said:



			So all you had to do before to get a handicap was to be a member of an affiliated golf club, hand in your 3 cards then off you go.

But now you also require to have an email address (in England)? When did they decide to add this requirenent?
		
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Couple of days ago


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## ger147 (Oct 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Couple of days ago
		
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I assume they will be happy to refund the affiliation fees to members of clubs who they are now denying a handicap?


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I assume they will be happy to refund the affiliation fees to members of clubs who they are now denying a handicap?
		
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1/6th of £9.50. Hardly worth the effort.

But of course you can use your grandson's.


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## ger147 (Oct 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			1/6th of £9.50. Hardly worth the effort.

But of course you can use your grandson's.
		
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I'm in Scotland so unaffected.

It's the principle that's wrong IMO.


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

I thought the Scottish Golf system replaces the ISVs? But this from V1 suggests not.

*England* – We will have access to the WHS handicap index, and handicap record, we will be able to display all data in ClubV1 and HowDidiDo as we do currently.  All scores submitted at English clubs can be put through our systems.

*Scotland/Wales/Ireland* – We will be able to retrieve a WHS handicap index but may be restricted in where we display it.  We will not be given the player’s handicap record, this will not be available in ClubV1 Back Office, ClubV1 Members Hub or HowDidiDo.  All scores submitted at these clubs can be put through our systems.


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## rosecott (Oct 3, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I assume they will be happy to refund the affiliation fees to members of clubs who they are now denying a handicap?
		
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AFIK affiliated clubs pay their fees based on the number of members irrespective of how many have handicaps.


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## ger147 (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I thought the Scottish Golf system replaces the ISVs? But this from V1 suggests not.

*England* – We will have access to the WHS handicap index, and handicap record, we will be able to display all data in ClubV1 and HowDidiDo as we do currently.  All scores submitted at English clubs can be put through our systems.

*Scotland/Wales/Ireland* – We will be able to retrieve a WHS handicap index but may be restricted in where we display it.  We will not be given the player’s handicap record, this will not be available in ClubV1 Back Office, ClubV1 Members Hub or HowDidiDo.  All scores submitted at these clubs can be put through our systems.
		
Click to expand...

Been no sign or mention of the supposed new Scottish Golf system for months now, who knows what's going on.


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## ger147 (Oct 3, 2020)

This is the current FAQ's on the Scottish Golf website for clubs. It seems the new system will not be replacing ISV's up here...

https://ocs-sport.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/sg/2019/12/Scottish-Golf-WHS-FAQ-Document.pdf


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

Thanks.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I suspect it may have to be a legitimate one. eg handicapping@englandgolf.org or info@englandgolf.org 

Click to expand...

Hang on - the supposed whole point of giving them an eMail address and DoB is for integrity of the system. Giving a generic eMail address is counter to this. Also I assume EG will be emailing links to people to go to their website. If they send it to themselves (this example) what is the point?


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Hang on - the supposed whole point of giving them an eMail address and DoB is for integrity of the system. Giving a generic eMail address is counter to this. Also I assume EG will be emailing links to people to go to their website. If they send it to themselves (this example) what is the point?
		
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They've already got my email address so I have no axe to grind but the debate is about those who have no need or wish to use any email system.
I know a member of another local club where a few years ago they demanded email addresses for all members. The guy gave his daughter's (with her agreement) and she simply put the club's address on 'block'.


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## rosecott (Oct 3, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Hang on - the supposed whole point of giving them an eMail address and DoB is for integrity of the system. Giving a generic eMail address is counter to this. Also I assume EG will be emailing links to people to go to their website. If they send it to themselves (this example) what is the point?
		
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I was not on gmail but I have set up a gmail address for those few members who have no access to email, and I will be monitoring it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2020)

The idea of email addresses for verification is so outdated. Organisations  have realised that the last thing people do when/if they change an email address is notify every tom dick and Harry. As all information on handicap index will be available on HDID and via your club it sounds more like a marketing ploy by EG than a need.


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I was not on gmail but I have set up a gmail address for those few members who have no access to email, and I will be monitoring it.
		
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Is this one email address shared between you or an individual address ?


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## rosecott (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is this one email address shared between you or an individual address ?
		
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Shared.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2020)

For those on V1

https://www.clubsystems.com/support/world-handicap-system


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

On a personal note I have no objection to email but DoB is an entirely different matter. When you read what they have said you are agreeing to this being sent to anybody they choose.

I have already told my manager I do not want him to give them my D.O.B as I consider this to be major breach of personal security information. It is something I give out only when I consider it to be absolute necessary for a organisation to have it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			On a personal note I have no objection to email but DoB is an entirely different matter. When you read what they have said you are agreeing to this being sent to anybody they choose.

I have already told my manager I do not want him to give them my D.O.B as I consider this to be major breach of personal security information. It is something I give out only when I consider it to be absolute necessary for a organisation to have it.
		
Click to expand...

We now have a few members born on 01-01-2001


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## rulefan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep but I now have 14 people with the same gmail address 

Click to expand...

Which ISV do you use? I am being told that V1 will not accept duplicate email addresses.


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## rulefan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We now have a few members born on 01-01-2001 

Click to expand...

And a few on 1 April


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which ISV do you use? I am being told that V1 will not accept duplicate email addresses.
		
Click to expand...

V1 put at least 10 members with the same email on system


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## rulefan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			V1 put at least 10 members with the same email on system
		
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Do you get any sort of warning re duplicates?


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you get any sort of warning re duplicates?
		
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Got a security warning about sharing but ignored it as they will never access the account


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## rulefan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got a security warning about sharing but ignored it as they will never access the account
		
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Thanks. I will let our manager know.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks. I will let our manager know.
		
Click to expand...

PM sent


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## rulefan (Oct 5, 2020)

Received & replied


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