# Numbers on golf clubs!



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

These days you can buy a 4-wood, a 4-hybrid or a 4-iron and they will all hit the ball different distances. Must be desperately difficult for beginners to the game to get their heads around this. Even if you are not a beginner the numbers seem to mean less and less, because manufacturers keep strengthening the lofts on their clubs so they go further (for a given number), so a modern 8-iron is more like a 6-iron of 25 years ago. Wouldn't it be better if they just put an accurate number of degrees of loft on their clubs, so then you would know exactly what you are buying?  :mmm:


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			These days you can buy a 4-wood, a 4-hybrid or a 4-iron and they will all hit the ball different distances. Must be desperately difficult for beginners to the game to get their heads around this. Even if you are not a beginner the numbers seem to mean less and less, because manufacturers keep strengthening the lofts on their clubs so they go further (for a given number), so a modern 8-iron is more like a 6-iron of 25 years ago. Wouldn't it be better if they just put an accurate number of degrees of loft on their clubs, so then you would know exactly what you are buying?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

No.


----------



## TheJezster (Dec 21, 2014)

I'd rather a standard myself.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 21, 2014)

Wouldn't putting lofts on clubs make it more confusing for beginners? If you pull an iron that says 30 degrees or some such, who knows what that is? A set of irons, whilst lofts maybe cranked, will be relative to one another so shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2014)

It's not only the lofts that are different, an 18 deg hybrid, iron and wood would all have different length shafts


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Wouldn't putting lofts on clubs make it more confusing for beginners? If you pull an iron that says 30 degrees or some such, who knows what that is? A set of irons, whilst lofts maybe cranked, will be relative to one another so shouldn't be a problem.
		
Click to expand...

I have an old set of Titleist clubs that have a number and the degrees of loft stamped on their heads. I agree that perhaps there should be an industry standard as to what the numbers actually mean. At least this would stop the space race to try and make every manufacturers' 7-iron go further than their competitors by continually jacking down the lofts!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2014)

There already IS a standard for irons - the number!

The only thing consistent, therefore standard, about an iron is the weight of the head. A 7-iron is 270/271 grams and there's a 7gm difference for each step.

Both woods and hybrids tend to use the loft. There can be a vast difference in size/weight of hybrids depending on what they are designed to favour. With wedges, loft is the logical measurement.

Scratch actually marketed a set of 'loft labelled' irons for a short time.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 21, 2014)

It matters not what is written on the bottom of the club.  You have to hit it to really find out how far you hit the club.


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			No.
		
Click to expand...

Would you care to expand on that?


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			These days you can buy a 4-wood, a 4-hybrid or a 4-iron and they will all hit the ball different distances. Must be desperately difficult for beginners to the game to get their heads around this. Even if you are not a beginner the numbers seem to mean less and less, because manufacturers keep strengthening the lofts on their clubs so they go further (for a given number), so a modern 8-iron is more like a 6-iron of 25 years ago. Wouldn't it be better if they just put an accurate number of degrees of loft on their clubs, so then you would know exactly what you are buying?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Would you not be assuming that loft is the only factor in how far a club hits the ball?


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Would you not be assuming that loft is the only factor in how far a club hits the ball?
		
Click to expand...

Length, weight and whippiness of the shaft also comes into the equation. Manufacturers have also made their clubs about an inch longer for a given club number. As I said before, a modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as an old time 6-iron, so no wonder it goes further. Problems come at the short end of the range where there is often now a 10 degree gap between a PW and a SI, and at the longer clubs where a 3 iron is now impossible for a club golfer to hit because it's really a 1-iron!


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			Length, weight and whippiness of the shaft also comes into the equation. Manufacturers have also made their clubs about an inch longer for a given club number. As I said before, a modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as an old time 6-iron, so no wonder it goes further. Problems come at the short end of the range where there is often now a 10 degree gap between a PW and a SI, and at the longer clubs where a 3 iron is now impossible for a club golfer to hit because it's really a 1-iron!  

Click to expand...

so you can either put all that information on the bottom of an iron, or you can devise some sort of clever numbering system that lets you know exactly which club you are selecting. I would suggest a series of numbers, increasing from 1 to 9, coupled with a naming convention for the wedges


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			so you can either put all that information on the bottom of an iron, or you can devise some sort of clever numbering system that lets you know exactly which club you are selecting. I would suggest a series of numbers, increasing from 1 to 9, coupled with a naming convention for the wedges 

Click to expand...

No problem with that as long as it is consistent between manufacturers. But it isn't. I bought a new set of Wilson irons a few years ago and found that I was hitting my short irons much further than with my previous rather elderly set of Pings. Initially I thought great, but then realised that any shot between 80 and 100 yards was quite awkward due to the lack of loft on the PW, and because I couldn't hit the sand iron more than about 70 yards. Sand irons still need 55 or 56 degrees of loft to fulfill their intended function of getting out of bunkers.  Solved the problem by buying a gap wedge, but that performed pretty much the same as my previous PW, and had almost exactly the same loft!


----------



## Pin-seeker (Dec 21, 2014)

My mate Games Cleveland CG16 irons,they have the loft of each club on the sole as well as the number. 
Can't see Taylormade or Callaway doing it anytime soon tho. 

Yes I know I said "games"


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			No problem with that as long as it is consistent between manufacturers. But it isn't. I bought a new set of Wilson irons a few years ago and found that I was hitting my short irons much further than my previous rather elderly set of Pings. Initially I thought great, but then realised that any shot between 80 and 100 yards was quite awkward due to the lack of loft on the PW, and because I couldn't hit the sand iron more than about 70 yards.* Solved the problem by buying a gap wedge, *but that performed pretty much the same as my previous PW, and had almost exactly the same loft!
		
Click to expand...

Thats because the gap between the long irons used to be 4 degrees. Then someone made it 3 degrees thus creating a gap between the PW/SW so they could sell you a GW. And it worked


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Thats because the gap between the long irons used to be 4 degrees. Then someone made it 3 degrees thus creating a gap between the PW/SW so they could sell you a GW. And it worked
		
Click to expand...

I also quickly stopped using the 3-iron because it was almost impossible to get the ball airborne and it went less distance than the 4-iron. A traditional set of irons was 3-PW, now it's 5-GW, but pretty much does the same thing!


----------



## fundy (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			These days you can buy a 4-wood, a 4-hybrid or a 4-iron and they will all hit the ball different distances. Must be desperately difficult for beginners to the game to get their heads around this. Even if you are not a beginner the numbers seem to mean less and less, because manufacturers keep strengthening the lofts on their clubs so they go further (for a given number), so a modern 8-iron is more like a 6-iron of 25 years ago. Wouldn't it be better if they just put an accurate number of degrees of loft on their clubs, so then you would know exactly what you are buying?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Hasnt it always been thus? When I started playing the game in the 80s my 3 wood and 3 iron went very different distances!

If you dont like it, you could always buy a set of irons that dont have strengthened lofts. lofts of my irons are pretty much the same as sets would have been 30 years


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2014)

Far too many variables. Manufacturers have different lofts and as much as you'll huff and puff they're will never be an industry standard. Regular stock shafts for off the shelf sets vary so that will affect distance and flight. Sorry Delc but again, while it's a discussion topic I can't see why you'd want to do this. Learn to hit a club to a degree of consistency, learn how far it goes and go from there. No need to add another variable into an already confused market


----------



## rob_golf1 (Dec 21, 2014)

If we started talking degrees, it would make the game sound far too technical. As such, putting people off even more!


----------



## delc (Dec 21, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Far too many variables. Manufacturers have different lofts and as much as you'll huff and puff they're will never be an industry standard. Regular stock shafts for off the shelf sets vary so that will affect distance and flight. Sorry Delc but again, while it's a discussion topic I can't see why you'd want to do this. Learn to hit a club to a degree of consistency, learn how far it goes and go from there. No need to add another variable into an already confused market
		
Click to expand...

It would be nice to have a good idea of how far your shots will go after buying or hiring a set of clubs though!


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 21, 2014)

I've thought long & hard about this. The numbers mean nothing. The longest iron in your bag should be the longest, with the least loft, you can hit reasonably consistently. For some it will be the 5 iron, for me, with a very forgiving set it's the 3 iron, with standard loft 1Â½" longer than standard. The 9 iron should be around 4Â° straighter than your pitching wedge, in my case 42Â°. The other clubs should then have lofts & lengths evenly spaced between your 9 iron & longest iron. Once you've done this, measure how far you carry each one, either on the range or on a simulator, *using **the ball you normally play with, *and that's it. Get some woods & hybrids to fill the gap between your driver & longest iron and you've got a set that suits you.

I built my set this way & it works brilliantly. The 3 iron is 1Â½" longer & I get an important 15 yards extra with it.  All the other irons, 4 to 9 are varying amounts longer than standard, with the 9 iron Â½" longer than the pitching wedge. I think I could hit the 3 iron with a little less loft so I may have the lofts of 3 to 8 strengthened a bit to give an even spread.

I've never met a club fitter with this approach, it just seems logical to me, and, more importantly, it works.


----------



## SammmeBee (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			It would be nice to have a good idea of how far your shots will go after buying or hiring a set of clubs though! 

Click to expand...

You do...your six iron will go further than the seven and not as far as the five iron......


----------



## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			It would be nice to have a good idea of how far your shots will go after buying or hiring a set of clubs though! 

Click to expand...

First of all, from the first post, there was a 1 wood and 1 iron, 2 wood and 2 iron, 3 wood and 3 iron... and that was way back in the mists of time when I started playing - think everything was in black and white back then. Its not a modern phenomena.

As for knowing how far; every individual hits it different distances, and different distances on different days @ different times of the year.

Far from suggesting it would make things less complicated, I'm inclined to think you're over complicating things...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2014)

Surely all that matters is how far you hit each club - it could say a letter on the bottom as far as im concerned 

Delc do you actually like golf ? You want to change so many fundamental things in the game


----------



## Tommo21 (Dec 21, 2014)

delc said:



			It would be nice to have a good idea of how far your shots will go after buying or hiring a set of clubs though! 

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s exactly what I done, went through my bag on Trackman. My 5 wood has a 3 wood shaft in it, my 19 degree hybrid has a 5 wood shaft in it. For me, I have from driver down, everything I need to make a proper judgment with the right gaps. Taking this further, lately Iâ€™ve been collecting some vintage sets of clubs and the choices over the last 60,70,80 years are every bit as complicated in many ways.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely all that matters is how far you hit each club - it could say a letter on the bottom as far as im concerned 

Delc do you actually like golf ? You want to change so many fundamental things in the game
		
Click to expand...

There's an entirely logical strategy involved... Every change is based on the premise that it will make, or appear to make, Del more competitive!


----------



## huds1475 (Dec 21, 2014)

Is it April Fools day already?


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 21, 2014)

Another great idea Del. so let's stick 19' on the bottom of a hybrid and the same on a fairway wood and the all the beginners will know exactly where they stand :thup:


Oh, apart from the fact they would still go different distances, have different ball flights, different length shafts etc etc.

Don't you think it's about time you stopped trying to change things that don't need changing and just got on with enjoying the game as it is?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2014)

I think Taylormade should bring out a full set of clubs where the driver is called 'A' and the putter is called 'Z' and you can pick any selection of letters inbetween for your other 12 clubs  :thup:


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2014)

My Cleveland irons have an iron number and loft on them. Seems very simple. Helpful for newbies to golf as well.


----------



## shewy (Dec 21, 2014)

Personally I'd like to see the number on the bottom left as is and the lofts standardised then you would get a true indication if a new club goes further, I mean how can you compare them when the newer version is 4 degrees stronger and an inch longer. (I'm not pointing the finger at any one manufacturer as they are all at it)


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2014)

shewy said:



			Personally I'd like to see the number on the bottom left as is and the lofts standardised then you would get a true indication if a new club goes further, I mean how can you compare them when the newer version is 4 degrees stronger and an inch longer. (I'm not pointing the finger at any one manufacturer as they are all at it)
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll ever get an industry standard though. Every time they crank a loft by another half degree they can say it adds xx yards in the marketing. What's a 7 iron in one set may be a 6 or close to a 5 in another


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 21, 2014)

It matters not what you call any club or number them.   my driver will only go so far.  The rest all work down from there!

We also don't need to dumb things down for newbie. They can either use the internet, ask a friend or a kind chap in American golf will explain everything.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I don't think you'll ever get an industry standard though. Every time they crank a loft by another half degree they can say it adds xx yards in the marketing. What's a 7 iron in one set may be a 6 or close to a 5 in another
		
Click to expand...

Er...No. A 7 iron is a 270/271gm head and a 6 iron is 263/264gms! But that's all that's 'standard'! OEMs can, and do, vary weight distribution, method of manufacture, material(s) and a host of other details as well as loft, in order to attain the optimum performance for the target customer!


----------



## MadAdey (Dec 22, 2014)

Not what the problem is. My irons only come in 4-PW, so couldn't have a 3i, but they are slightly stronger lofts than the old standards, but not jacked up like some clubs. 

Get your irons, find out how far you hit them, then fill the gaps around them. That's what I did and that's how I ended up with 2 & 3 in the MP-H4.

I'm not interested in we there the bloke next to me is hitting a 3i or a 5i, if my set says I need a 4i then that is what I will hit.


----------



## Slab (Dec 22, 2014)

Leaving to one side the naming convention on clubs and maybe Iâ€™m reading too much into Delâ€™s opening post but isnâ€™t the problem that what should be a simple act of changing irons being over complicated as inevitably it also leads to changes to the clubs at either end of the range i.e hybrids/fwâ€™s and wedges

So regardless of what's stamped on the club, the problem the manufactures have forced on the player through changes in lofts/lengths etc is how do I change a set of irons without having to revamp the remainder of the bag as well? (excl putter/driver) and having to put up with an extended transition period as each player then needs to re-work distances of new irons to establish which of those other clubs need to change to restore a shot distance gaping


----------



## Region3 (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Er...No. A 7 iron is a 270/271gm head and a 6 iron is 263/264gms! But that's all that's 'standard'! OEMs can, and do, vary weight distribution, method of manufacture, material(s) and a host of other details as well as loft, in order to attain the optimum performance for the target customer!
		
Click to expand...

Have the head weights always been that way, or have they changed them as shafts have gotten longer to keep swing weights the same?


----------



## CMAC (Dec 22, 2014)

of course at impact though a shaft leaners 6 iron is a flippers 8 iron - so loft per head changes per player I would think.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Slab said:



			Leaving to one side the naming convention on clubs and maybe Iâ€™m reading too much into Delâ€™s opening post but isnâ€™t the problem that what should be a simple act of changing irons being over complicated as inevitably it also leads to changes to the clubs at either end of the range i.e hybrids/fwâ€™s and wedges

So regardless of what's stamped on the club, the problem the manufactures have forced on the player through changes in lofts/lengths etc is how do I change a set of irons without having to revamp the remainder of the bag as well? (excl putter/driver) and having to put up with an extended transition period as each player then needs to re-work distances of new irons to establish which of those other clubs need to change to restore a shot distance gaping
		
Click to expand...

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  I noticed the difference immediately when I traded up to a modern set of clubs.  It's basically all a con to make you think that Brand X clubs hit the ball further than their competitors. If you try clubs out you are typically given a 7 iron (used to be a 6 iron) because that is probably the easiest club to hit. If the Brand X 7-iron goes further than the others, you will be impressed and shell out for the full set. You will then find you need one or even two gap wedges and that the longest iron is virtually unusable!  Pitching wedges have gone from 51 degrees in the old days to as little as 45 degrees now. Absolutely ridiculous IMO!
:mmm:


----------



## TheJezster (Dec 22, 2014)

Putting aside the fact it was delc who started the thread (as I think there are many on here who simply take the polar opposite view he does because they donâ€™t want to agree with him), I personally think it makes sense and would be a good idea to have an industry standard for loft per club.  That way there wouldnâ€™t be any â€œ84 yards further than any other 7 ironâ€ claims by leading manufacturer and everyone would know where they were.  It still wouldnâ€™t matter what anyone you were playing with hit, because its only what you hit and how far you hit it that counts, but it would mean you could buy new clubs without the hassle of changing other clubs.  Plus, if you had a 5-PW set from say, Callaway, you could go out and buy a 4iron from TM if you wanted.  It just makes sense.  I can see why the manufacturers donâ€™t want this, but for us, the consumers, it would be so much easier and simpler.

Thatâ€™s my view anyway, not that it changes anything, but it would make things a lot simpler.


----------



## Slab (Dec 22, 2014)

Not sure if the loft in itself will give us that buyers confidence though 

I bought a TM stage2 25 degree 5-hybrid to fit under the distance of my four year old Cobra 22 degree 4-hybrid... unfortunately they go the same distance and have the same length shaft!


----------



## Spuddy (Dec 22, 2014)

TheJezster said:



			Putting aside the fact it was delc who started the thread (as I think there are many on here who simply take the polar opposite view he does because they donâ€™t want to agree with him), I personally think it makes sense and would be a good idea to have an industry standard for loft per club.  That way there wouldnâ€™t be any â€œ84 yards further than any other 7 ironâ€ claims by leading manufacturer and everyone would know where they were.  It still wouldnâ€™t matter what anyone you were playing with hit, because its only what you hit and how far you hit it that counts, but it would mean you could buy new clubs without the hassle of changing other clubs.  Plus, if you had a 5-PW set from say, Callaway, you could go out and buy a 4iron from TM if you wanted.  It just makes sense.  I can see why the manufacturers donâ€™t want this, but for us, the consumers, it would be so much easier and simpler.

Thatâ€™s my view anyway, not that it changes anything, but it would make things a lot simpler.
		
Click to expand...

A few points...

Numbering clubs is purely for the benefit of the player so they can differentiate between them in the bag.  They could have just as easily letterered them, colour coded them or written the lofts however over time numbering has become the standard.

The problem with standard lofts would be that you would be stuck if one decided to make a 7 iron a few degrees stronger than 'standard'. Would they need to call it a 6 1/2 iron?

The lofts of clubs are freely available from the manufacturers and you would think that someone spending hundreds of pounds on a set would do a little bit of research first.


----------



## Imurg (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Exactly the point I was trying to make.  I noticed the difference immediately when I traded up to a modern set of clubs.  It's basically all a con to make you think that Brand X clubs hit the ball further than their competitors. If you try clubs out you are typically given a 7 iron (used to be a 6 iron) because that is probably the easiest club to hit. If the Brand X 7-iron goes further than the others, you will be impressed and shell out for the full set. You will then find you need one or even two gap wedges and that the longest iron is virtually unusable!  Pitching wedges have gone from 51 degrees in the old days to as little as 45 degrees now. Absolutely ridiculous IMO!
:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

I thought you wanted to make the game easier..?
Manufacturers have strengthened lofts to combat higher flight caused by the  lowering Centre of Gravity that makes it EASIER to get the ball in the air for ordinary golfers.
Extra distance is a by-product that the marketing departments have seized in an attempt to make us feel like we hit the ball as far as Pros.
If your current, modern PW was 51Â° you would nearly hit it higher than further..
If you want to go back to traditional lofts you need to buy an old set from the 90's but you'll find it much harder to get the ball flight you have now.


----------



## TheJezster (Dec 22, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			A few points...

Numbering clubs is purely for the benefit of the player so they can differentiate between them in the bag.  They could have just as easily letterered them, colour coded them or written the lofts however over time numbering has become the standard.

The problem with standard lofts would be that you would be stuck if one decided to make a 7 iron a few degrees stronger than 'standard'. Would they need to call it a 6 1/2 iron?

The lofts of clubs are freely available from the manufacturers and you would think that someone spending hundreds of pounds on a set would do a little bit of research first.
		
Click to expand...

If there were a standard, there would be no need to develop a 7 iron with 'stronger' lofts than others though would there?  

I think "freely available" is pushing it a little, it can take ages to get the lofts of some clubs.. but by and large many are on their website somewhere yes.

As I said though, it's just my view, I think it WOULD be easier to have an industry standard.  I'm not asking you to agree with me or have that same view though.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

Region3 said:



			Have the head weights always been that way, or have they changed them as shafts have gotten longer to keep swing weights the same?
		
Click to expand...

'Always' been the same! At least in the semi-modern era, when numbered, rather than named, clubs became the norm.

With shaft weights varying from around 130gms to 50gms, there's more than just head weight involved in setting Swing Weight.

There are occasional 'heavy' or (more often, I believe) 'light' heads produced though. I know that both Ping and Taylor Made these for 'special circumstances', but those are the normal standards.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 22, 2014)

You will then find you need one or even two gap wedges and that the longest iron is virtually unusable!
		
Click to expand...

Can you give an example of a 15 degree 3 iron please?


----------



## Jimaroid (Dec 22, 2014)

I think we should all go back to having our own Brassies, Spoons, Cleeks, Mashies and Niblicks made for us. Because how you name something is irrelevant. No two people can hit one club exactly the same way, you just play and learn what happens.


----------



## louise_a (Dec 22, 2014)

I have recently mislaid my PW (I left it on the course somewhere and it hasn't been handed in yet) So I got the PW out of my old set, but due to the difference in the lofts, my old PW goes as far as my current 9 iron, so is not much of a replacement.


----------



## Slab (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Exactly the point I was trying to make.  I noticed the difference immediately when I traded up to a modern set of clubs.  It's basically all a con to make you think that Brand X clubs hit the ball further than their competitors. If you try clubs out you are typically given a 7 iron (used to be a 6 iron) because that is probably the easiest club to hit. If the Brand X 7-iron goes further than the others, you will be impressed and shell out for the full set. You will then find you need one or even two gap wedges and that the longest iron is virtually unusable!  Pitching wedges have gone from 51 degrees in the old days to as little as 45 degrees now. Absolutely ridiculous IMO!
:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

My point was more that irons are being sold as a 'set' when (due to lofts/lengths etc) they're not really a set but merely component/s of a set of clubs, typically ill-suited to fitting into the remainder of the bag

Stores are full of 4-PW or similar without the consumer having any real choice as to what suits them in terms of lofts/lengths etc (short of a CF session) 

Ideally I'd like to see more retailers offer the clubs from FW to 3H/4H & 3I through to 9I through PW, GW SW & LW and let the consumer pick the 6-8-10-12 clubs for 'their' set, doesn't matter whats stamped on them 

*I wonder how many folks have spent a few hundred on a 'set' of irons and actually have a club they don't now put in the bag?*

edit: started a Clubs you don't use thread


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you give an example of a 15 degree 3 iron please?
		
Click to expand...

At that end of the range, the gaps change from being 4* to 2*(3* between 5 and 4), so 2-iron is still 17*, 3 is 19, 4 is 21. So loft spec is still 1 different.

My TM300 3-iron was 21* and the 2 was 18* (from memory) as they didn't make a 1-iron by then.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you give an example of a 15 degree 3 iron please?
		
Click to expand...

This link is interesting:

http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm

This includes the subject of loft creep over the years.  Apparently starting from the Pitching Wedge downwards, lofts are now 5 degrees stronger than they used to be and go down in increments of 4 or 3 degrees. It suggests that most club players would struggle to use any modern club longer than a 5-iron, which seems to mirror my experience. 30 years ago my 3-iron was my favorite club. If I may re-iterate a point I made in the 14 club debate, iron club gapping could easily be increased to 5 degrees. My suggestions would be SI 55, PW 50, 9-iron 45, 8-iron 40, 7-iron 35, 6-iron 30, 5-iron 25 degrees, and that would be probably all most player would need, representing a significant saving in cost.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

You can find the loft of every single club on the market - why do you need it on the club 

As long as you know how far you hit what club is in your hand then you can put whatever you want on the club


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can find the loft of every single club on the market - why do you need it on the club 

As long as you know how far you hit what club is in your hand then you can put whatever you want on the club
		
Click to expand...

I have some Titleist DCI clubs from the early 1980's and they have both a number and the the degrees of loft stamped on their head. The lofts are pretty traditional. I take them to the range occasionally and surprise, surprise, the 6-iron flies about the same height and distance as the 8-iron in my current set of Taylor Mades. Hardly unexpected because the the lofts and shaft lengths are about the same!  :mmm:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I have some Titleist DCI clubs from the early 1980's and they have both a number and the the degrees of loft stamped on their head. The lofts are pretty traditional. I take them to the range occasionally and surprise, surprise, the 6-iron flies about the same height and distance as the 8-iron in my current set of Taylor Mades. Hardly unexpected because the the lofts and shaft lengths are about the same!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

And ? 

As long as you know how far each club goes it doesn't natter


----------



## bobmac (Dec 22, 2014)

You will then find you need one or even two gap wedges and that the longest iron is virtually unusable!


 at the longer clubs where a 3 iron is now impossible for a club golfer to hit because it's really a 1-iron!
		
Click to expand...

Can you give me an example of a 15 degree 3 iron please?


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

Del. Can you explain just exactly what you are trying to achieve?

All this info is already known/available!

Do you really think that if the OEMs could produce a set of clubs cheaper, the price that the consumer would change?

And would it make golfers happier? Or attract more of them to the game?

Btw. My view is 'No' to all 3 questions!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And ? 

As long as you know how far each club goes it doesn't natter
		
Click to expand...

My clubs never natter, unlike some of my playing companions!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you give me an example of a 15 degree 3 iron please?
		
Click to expand...

See the specification tables in this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_(golf)

The only reason that the modern 1-iron has as much loft as it does is because the manufacturers have reduced the gap between clubs to 3 degrees instead of the more traditional 4 degrees at the longer iron end of the range.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Del. Can you explain just exactly what you are trying to achieve?

All this info is already known/available!

Do you really think that if the OEMs could produce a set of clubs cheaper, the price that the consumer would change?

And would it make golfers happier? Or attract more of them to the game?

Btw. My view is 'No' to all 3 questions!
		
Click to expand...

Buying a set of clubs is not an insignificant outlay for a new golfer. If you could reduce the number of clubs required without affecting their functionality (e.g. by 5 degree gapping), surely more hard up young people could afford to take up the sport. I very much doubt that an extra degree of loft difference between clubs would make ANY difference to an average golfer's score, as was pretty much proved by our recent 5 clubs and a putter competition, where there were some much bigger gaps between clubs than that!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

You can buy golf sets for under a hundred quid 

There is affordable golf sets out there for everyone without the need to change any make up of sets


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			My clubs never natter, unlike some of my playing companions!  

Click to expand...


So you manage to avoid the point by focussing on a spelling mistake


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Buying a set of clubs is not an insignificant outlay for a new golfer. If you could reduce the number of clubs required without affecting their functionality (e.g. by 5 degree gapping), surely more hard up young people could afford to take up the sport. I very much doubt that an extra degree of loft difference between clubs would make ANY difference to an average golfer's score, as was pretty much proved by our recent 5 clubs and a putter competition, where there were some much bigger gaps between clubs than that!  

Click to expand...

As I stated in the post you quoted, I don't believe the price would change! at least not significantly!

The second-hand market is more likely where 'hard up young people' will go for entry-level kit.

But I'd normally be a bit confused about how a thread labelled 'Numbers on Golf Clubs' was, by your own statement, actually about the affordability of a set of new clubs by 'hard up young people'! 



Liverpoolphil said:



			So you manage to avoid the point by focussing on a spelling mistake
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:

:thup:


----------



## Fyldewhite (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Buying a set of clubs is not an insignificant outlay for a new golfer. If you could reduce the number of clubs required without affecting their functionality (e.g. by 5 degree gapping), surely more hard up young people could afford to take up the sport. I very much doubt that an extra degree of loft difference between clubs would make ANY difference to an average golfer's score, as was pretty much proved by our recent 5 clubs and a putter competition, where there were some much bigger gaps between clubs than that!  

Click to expand...

Think that's called a "half set". Was when I was starting out anyway. Of course you are quite correct in that the number of clubs doesn't make much difference to scores.....but so much is in the mind and we all want to "give ourselves the best chance". End of the day, loft creep isn't down to the manufacturers, it's down to the consumers (ie us) who for some reason think that a 6 iron that goes 10 yards further than the "old set" is somehow better despite it being the same as the old 5 iron. As for OP, really don't see any point or benefit in changing anything. what's stamped on clubs is just an identifier, what they do is important.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can find the loft of every single club on the market - why do you need it on the club 

As long as you know how far you hit what club is in your hand then you can put whatever you want on the club
		
Click to expand...

Actual lofts are not always obvious when looking at a new set of shinies. If the loft was stamped on them, then at least the trading standards people could have a go at the suppliers if they are not accurate. Numbers are meaningless without an accepted standard!  Suggest that you read the last paragraph of the Leaderboard article about some recent Taylor Made irons. 
Basically if you buy a bundled set it might be 4-PW. But the 4-iron might be unusable if you are not Jack Nicklaus, and you will probably need to buy a Gap Wedge if you want a half decent short game. Hence you have been sold one unnecessary and one extra club that should have been included in the set!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Actual lofts are not always obvious when looking at a new set of shinies. If the loft was stamped on them, then at least the trading standards people could have a go at the suppliers if they are not accurate. Numbers are meaningless without an accepted standard!  Suggest that you read the last paragraph of the Leaderboard article about some recent Taylor Made irons. 
Basically if you buy a bundled set it might be 4-PW. But the 4-iron might be unusable if you are not Jack Nicklaus, and you will probably need to buy a Gap Wedge if you want a half decent short game. Hence you have been sold one unnecessary and one extra club that should have been included in the set!  

Click to expand...

Do you always ignore what people post and reply with a pre determined speech ?

All that matters is how far you hit each club - a quick search on Google can help find out the Loft on every club


----------



## guest100718 (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			These days you can buy a 4-wood, a 4-hybrid or a 4-iron and they will all hit the ball different distances. Must be desperately difficult for beginners to the game to get their heads around this. Even if you are not a beginner the numbers seem to mean less and less, because manufacturers keep strengthening the lofts on their clubs so they go further (for a given number), so a modern 8-iron is more like a 6-iron of 25 years ago. Wouldn't it be better if they just put an accurate number of degrees of loft on their clubs, so then you would know exactly what you are buying?  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

It doesnt matter really does it? As long as you know what each club does and how far they go.


----------



## guest100718 (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you manage to avoid the point by focussing on a spelling mistake
		
Click to expand...

That's something you do too.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you always ignore what people post and reply with a pre determined speech ?

All that matters is how far you hit each club - a quick search on Google can help find out the Loft on every club
		
Click to expand...

And you are obviously ignoring what I am saying. If I buy a new set of clubs, I don't want to spend several weeks working out how far each new club hits the ball. If it's a 9-iron I expect it to go about 120 yards, not 140 yards because the loft and shaft length have been changed to those of a 7-iron! From a scoring point of view, the short end of the range, say from 150 yards in, is more important than sheer length!


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Buying a set of clubs is not an insignificant outlay for a new golfer.  

Click to expand...

I'm not a new golfer but have an aversion to buying new clubs. The price of clubs, once a new model is introduced, just plummets and, to be honest, there's normally little difference between one club & the next two or three models. My current set of irons, which were 5 years old but "as new" cost me Â£80. There's no reason why any beginner should pay more than this, especially since custom fitting a beginner is a waste of time until he/she learns to swing properly. Just buy them & work out how far you hit each one and decide which is the longest, least lofted club you can hit consistently.


----------



## guest100718 (Dec 22, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I'm not a new golfer but have an aversion to buying new clubs. The price of clubs, once a new model is introduced, just plummets and, to be honest, there's normally little difference between one club & the next two or three models. My current set of irons, which were 5 years old but "as new" cost me Â£80. There's no reason why any beginner should pay more than this, especially since custom fitting a beginner is a waste of time until he/she learns to swing properly. Just buy them & work out how far you hit each one and decide which is the longest, least lofted club you can hit consistently.
		
Click to expand...

I picked up a mint R1 for 85 quid.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			And you are obviously ignoring what I am saying. If I buy a new set of clubs, I don't want to spend several weeks working out how far each new club hits the ball. If it's a 9-iron I expect it to go about 120 yards, not 140 yards because the loft and shaft length have been changed to those of a 7-iron! From a scoring point of view, the short end of the range, say from 150 yards in, is more important than sheer length!  

Click to expand...

But it's not just the loft that affects the distance - do you want every manufacturer to produce the exact same club ?!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I picked up a mint R1 for 85 quid.
		
Click to expand...

I picked up a mint secondhand TM R1 driver for Â£100 when they were still quite new, but just after the SLDR came out. I think new R1's were something like Â£349 at the time, so following golf fashion is quite an expensive hobby. I'm still using the R1 BTW, and am very happy with it. Currently set at 12 degrees of loft to get the maximum carry in Winter conditions.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I picked up a mint secondhand TM R1 driver for Â£100 when they were still quite new, but just after the SLDR came out. I think new R1's were something like Â£349 at the time, so following golf fashion is quite an expensive hobby. I'm still using the R1 BTW, and am very happy with it. Currently set at 12 degrees of loft to get the maximum carry in Winter conditions.  

Click to expand...

And when the R15 hits the market all the used SLDRs will suddenly appear on EBay. And if it hits the ball an extra 1Â½ yards I'd be surprised, but there will be SLDR owners who will have to have it. "More money than sense" comes to mind.,


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			And when the R15 hits the market all the used SLDRs will suddenly appear on EBay. And if it hits the ball an extra 1Â½ yards I'd be surprised, but there will be SLDR owners who will have to have it. "More money than sense" comes to mind.,
		
Click to expand...

I'll certainly be given it a try -


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			And when the R15 hits the market all the used SLDRs will suddenly appear on EBay. And if it hits the ball an extra 1Â½ yards I'd be surprised, but there will be SLDR owners who will have to have it. "More money than sense" comes to mind.,
		
Click to expand...

I think that we got to the point of diminishing returns some years ago when it comes to driver distances! :mmm:


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'll certainly be given it a try -
		
Click to expand...

Well we know you have more money than sense:ears:


----------



## Imurg (Dec 22, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Well we know you have more money than sense:ears:
		
Click to expand...

Isn't some of it yours Tony.....?:cheers::thup:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Well we know you have more money than sense:ears:
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully I use money earned on the course


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			And you are obviously ignoring what I am saying. If I buy a new set of clubs, I don't want to spend several weeks working out how far each new club hits the ball. If it's a 9-iron I expect it to go about 120 yards, not 140 yards because the loft and shaft length have been changed to those of a 7-iron! From a scoring point of view, the short end of the range, say from 150 yards in, is more important than sheer length!  

Click to expand...

Don't underestimate the importance of working out distances for each club.
In fact it took me a morning to do it.
It might stop your handicap rising


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Isn't some of it yours Tony.....?:cheers::thup:

Click to expand...

:rofl:

:cheers:


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Isn't some of it yours Tony.....?:cheers::thup:

Click to expand...

Hold on whos been spreading vicious rumours.
Between you and me mate im setting him up for the big one.:lol:


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it's not just the loft that affects the distance - do you want every manufacturer to produce the exact same club ?!
		
Click to expand...

Assuming that the other factors are optimised (e.g. by custom fitting), distance is only determined by loft angle and shaft length. I know from custom fitting sessions that changing the flex of the shaft affects spin rate and dispersion much more than distance. So yes, I would expect equally numbered clubs to be within a certain range of specification!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			And you are obviously ignoring what I am saying. If I buy a new set of clubs, I don't want to spend several weeks working out how far each new club hits the ball. If it's a 9-iron I expect it to go about 120 yards, not 140 yards because the loft and shaft length have been changed to those of a 7-iron! From a scoring point of view, the short end of the range, say from 150 yards in, is more important than sheer length!  

Click to expand...

Why buy the new set of clubs if they are not an improvement?  Dispersion can't be so poor that it requires a different set of clubs! And, knowing that the 4-iron is no use, but you will need a GW, simply opt for one set up like that. There are plenty that are, or can be!



delc said:



			Assuming that the other factors are optimised (e.g. by custom fitting), distance is only determined by loft angle and shaft length. I know from custom fitting sessions that changing the flex of the shaft affects spin rate and dispersion much more than distance. So yes, I would expect *equally numbered *clubs to be within a certain range of specification!  

Click to expand...

Swing speed has a lot to do with it! And with your short swing, there seems to be considerable room for improvement within your current set. And there's an assumption (in the 'custom fitting,I guess) that you are getting a pretty centred strike, which also has a significant effect!

And I think you meant 'equally lofted'...


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Don't underestimate the importance of working out distances for each club.
In fact it took me a morning to do it.
It might stop your handicap rising
		
Click to expand...

I've had my current set of clubs for over a year now, so I have a pretty good idea of how far they all go, helped by a GPS watch. Unfortunately I can't do much about the ageing process!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Why buy the new set of clubs if they are not an improvement?  Dispersion can't be so poor that it requires a different set of clubs! And, knowing that the 4-iron is no use, but you will need a GW, simply opt for one set up like that. There are plenty that are, or can be!



Swing speed has a lot to do with it! And with your short swing, there seems to be considerable room for improvement within your current set. And there's an assumption (in the 'custom fitting,I guess) that you are getting a pretty centred strike, which also has a significant effect!

And I think you meant 'equally lofted'...
		
Click to expand...

No, I definitely meant 'equally numbered'!  Then if I buy, say an 8 iron, from any maker, I can expect it to hit the ball a certain distance within a yard or two.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 22, 2014)

Throw in hot faces, cavity and muscle backs and those 8 irons will probably go slightly different differences anyway.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			No, I definitely meant 'equally numbered'!  Then if I buy, say an 8 iron, from any maker, I can expect it to hit the ball a certain distance within a yard or two.  

Click to expand...

:rofl:

As I asked, but you DelPhil-ised again, why buy a new set then!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:

As I asked, but you DelPhil-ised again, why buy a new set then!
		
Click to expand...

Because my old set was getting a bit worn out and they were not properly custom fitted!  Next question?


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Because my old set was getting a bit worn out and they were not properly custom fitted!  Next question?  

Click to expand...

Worn out after 1 year? That's as much twaddle as I've heard in that time! I played 6 times a week with forged clubs for a couple of years and the only really noticeable wear to irons was from bag chatter and the occasional scrape! 

Not getting them properly fitted though - at least for length and lie - before spending a serious amount of money was (typically?) daft! Though, from the lack of real issues, it wouldn't surprise me if there was no change required.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I don't want to spend several weeks working out how far each new club hits the ball.
		
Click to expand...

More like an hour on the practice ground or a launch monitor. You are asking for the impossible and, even if it were possible, it's not necessary, and, even if it were necessary it wouldn't be essential.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Worn out after 1 year? That's as much twaddle as I've heard in that time! I played 6 times a week with forged clubs for a couple of years and the only really noticeable wear to irons was from bag chatter and the occasional scrape! 

Not getting them properly fitted though - at least for length and lie - before spending a serious amount of money was (typically?) daft! Though, from the lack of real issues, it wouldn't surprise me if there was no change required.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I had owned my previous set of Ping irons for several years and they were bought secondhand anyway. I had got the lies bent to about the right figure by Ping, and I did fit new grips shortly after I bought them. They had AWT shafts fitted that were probably a tad too stiff for me.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Assuming that the other factors are optimised (e.g. by custom fitting), distance is only determined by loft angle and shaft length. I know from custom fitting sessions that changing the flex of the shaft affects spin rate and dispersion much more than distance. So yes, I would expect equally numbered clubs to be within a certain range of specification!  

Click to expand...

So what about the faces or the cavity back or muscle back or the offset - multiple different factors in regards every single different iron 

Sorry Delc but again you ask for the game to change so much 
If you want to know what loft an iron is then use google or ask

Then use your head and work out the irons you need.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Actually I had owned my previous set of Ping irons for several years and they were bought secondhand anyway. I had got the lies bent to about the right figure by Ping, and I did fit new grips shortly after I bought them. They had AWT shafts fitted that were probably a tad too stiff for me. 

Click to expand...

So it was the change from the Pings to the RBZs you were C/F-ed for. So not actually in the market for a new set of irons anyway! So what the numbers on the bottom of any (new) clubs means (or doesn't) has absolutely no relevance! It's all just :blah:


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So it was the change from the Pings to the RBZs you were C/F-ed for. So not actually in the market for a new set of irons anyway! So what the numbers on the bottom of any (new) clubs means (or doesn't) has absolutely no relevance! It's all just :blah:
		
Click to expand...

Do you ever read properly what people write?  Or do you just make up what you think they might have wrote?   

I had a fairly well used set of Ping i15 irons. Just over a year ago after trying some TM Speed Blades (not RBZ) at a demo day, I decided to invest in a new custom fitted set of them. I ordered 4-SW including a GW. Their spec is shown in my signature below. They are pretty good clubs and did reduce my handicap when I first got them. However I found the 4-iron quite difficult to use because it has so little loft, so that has since languished in a cupboard. Otherwise I hit the ball at least a club longer than the Pings.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Do you ever read properly what people write?  Or do you make up what you think they might have wrote?   I had a fairly well used set of Ping i15 irons. Just over a year ago after trying some TM Speed Blades (not RBZ) at a demo day, I decided to invest in a new custom fitted set of them. I ordered 4-SW including a GW. Their spec is shown in my signature below. They are pretty good clubs and did reduce my handicap when I first got them. However I found the 4-iron quite difficult to use because it has so little loft, so that has languished in a cupboard. Otherwise I hit the ball at least a club longer than the Pings. 

Click to expand...

4 iron has 20 degree loft doesn't it ? About standard for a 4 iron these days - pings is about 21 degree 

But all you had to do was ask what the loft is when purchasing


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			4 iron has 20 degree loft doesn't it ? About standard for a 4 iron these days - pings is about 21 degree 

But all you had to do was ask what the loft is when purchasing
		
Click to expand...

the Ping I15 4 iron has 24 degrees of loft (I think).


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			the Ping I15 4 iron has 24 degrees of loft (I think).
		
Click to expand...


Just looking at golfbidder who were looking at the G25 and I25 - but as long as people know what loft is on what club then it should be easy yo work out


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			4 iron has 20 degree loft doesn't it ? About standard for a 4 iron these days - pings is about 21 degree 

But all you had to do was ask what the loft is when purchasing
		
Click to expand...

I assumed that they would be about the same, but apparently they're not. According to the tables in the Leaderboard and Wikipedia links I have already posted, a modern 4-iron should have about 25 degrees of loft, but the Speed Blades 4-iron is only 20 degrees. See:

http://taylormadegolf.co.uk/SpeedBlade-Irons/DW-SQ047.html


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I assumed that they would be about the same, but apparently they're not. According to the tables in the Leaderboard and Wikipedia links I have already posted, a modern 4-iron should have about 25 degrees of loft, but the Speed Blades are only 20 degrees. See:

http://taylormadegolf.co.uk/SpeedBlade-Irons/DW-SQ047.html

Click to expand...


So because you assumed incorrectly you want all manufacturers to be standard so that you don't make the same mistake again 

I would have thought a man of your apparent intellect would have done a bit of reaserch to see exactky what the lofts are - it took me two mins to find out the exact lofts of the speedblades 

Did you ask the pro what the lofts were when going through the fitting ? If not then why ?


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			the Ping I15 4 iron has 24 degrees of loft (I think).
		
Click to expand...

Exactly right! See: 

http://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=6969


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Exactly right! See: 

http://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=6969

Click to expand...


 I did look it up. I added the "I think" bit because of the sheer number of people on this forum who seem keen to pick up on any apparent mistake and turn it into an argument. Adding wiggle room saves me from getting into arguments .


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



*Do you ever read properly what people write?  Or do you just make up what you think they might have wrote?   
*
I had a fairly well used set of Ping i15 irons. Just over a year ago after trying some TM Speed Blades (not RBZ) at a demo day, I decided to invest in a new custom fitted set of them. I ordered 4-SW including a GW. Their spec is shown in my signature below. They are pretty good clubs and did reduce my handicap when I first got them. However I found the 4-iron quite difficult to use because it has so little loft, so that has since languished in a cupboard. Otherwise I hit the ball at least a club longer than the Pings. 

Click to expand...

Wow! If there's ever a case of Pot and Kettle!!!  :rofl:

I did indeed misread your Sig as having RBZs (the hybrids) rather than Speedblades. 'My Bad!' 

Otherwise, everything that I posted applies. It was your choice (stupidity?) to order as you did! The fact that you ordered the GW would indicate that you had, or should have had, some idea of what you were doing! Doesn't really seem like a proper 'custom fit' to me though as you should have been informed of/compared the difference!  Where was the C/F done? And what did it entail?


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So because you assumed incorrectly you want all manufacturers to be standard so that you don't make the same mistake again 

I would have thought a man of your apparent intellect would have done a bit of reaserch to see exactky what the lofts are - it took me two mins to find out the exact lofts of the speedblades 

Did you ask the pro what the lofts were when going through the fitting ? If not then why ?
		
Click to expand...

I think we only discussed shaft length, shaft flex and lie angle, as far I can remember. I knew that lofts had generally got a bit stronger since the 1980's, which I why I didn't order a 3-iron, but I assumed (wrongly as it turned out) that all manufacturers would use about the same specs.  A set of irons used to be 3-PW, but it's now getting more like 6-GW!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So because you assumed incorrectly you want all manufacturers to be standard so that you don't make the same mistake again 

I would have thought a man of your apparent intellect would have done a bit of reaserch to see exactky what the lofts are - it took me two mins to find out the exact lofts of the speedblades 

Did you ask the pro what the lofts were when going through the fitting ? If not then why ?
		
Click to expand...

:thup:

5-GW (or AW or UW or 10) is pretty common in GI sets these days.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			...Adding wiggle room saves me from getting into arguments .
		
Click to expand...

Oh no it doesn't! :rofl:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I think we only discussed shaft length, shaft flex and lie angle, as far I can remember. I knew that lofts had generally got a bit stronger since the 1980's, which I why I didn't order a 3-iron, but I assumed (wrongly as it turned out) that all manufacturers would use about the same specs.  A set of irons used to be 3-PW, but it's now getting more like 6-GW! 

Click to expand...

I reckon most golfers would realise that lofts vary between manufacturers - I don't know much about clubs etc but even I knew that lofts varied in the short time I have been playing golf - how long have you been playing ? 

Again the manufacturer will sell what's needed and you can ask and find out yourself 

So all this nonsense about making every club standard is because you made an assumption and didn't do your checks


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

The Custom Fit for the Speed Blades was carried out by Complete Golfer at Northwood who are generally pretty good. The custom fit consisted of a chat about my handicap and distances, a few bodily measurements (height, floor to wrist etc), and hitting some shots off a lie board into a net, with a Trackman. I had tried the Speed Blades out at a TM demo day elsewhere. Typically I was only given a pitching wedge and a 7-iron to try, and hit them pretty well. There was no mention that they had particularly strong lofts, and the pro at Complete Golfer probably didn't know this either. Maybe you guys will now understand the motivation behind my original posting!  I really do think there should be an industry standard for golf club specs.  :mmm:


----------



## chrisd (Dec 22, 2014)

Easily sorted, I did an average distance carry and roll out for all my clubs on a GC2 monitor. I wrote them all down and work off them for shots, so, I just vary the club required as to wind, temperature, elevation and whether there is roll out or not to decide on the club, in doing so the number and loft is largely unimportant as I look for the distance, add to take away for the variables and use the club indicated by the chart


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			The Custom Fit for the Speed Blades was carried out by Complete Golfer at Northwood who are generally pretty good. The custom fit consisted of a chat about my handicap and distances, a few bodily measurements (height, floor to wrist etc), and hitting some shots off a lie board into a net, with a Trackman. I had tried the Speed Blades out at a TM demo day elsewhere. Typically I was only given a pitching wedge and a 7-iron to try, and hit them pretty well. There was no mention that they had particularly strong lofts, and the pro at Complete Golfer probably didn't know this either. Maybe you guys will now understand the motivation behind my original posting!  I really do think there should be an industry standard for golf club specs.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Yes you want things to change to cover your own error and mistake 

It takes seconds to find out the loft of the club and you could have asked that question yourself 

Manufacturers will continue to produce clubs without an industry standard because having a standard doesn't make them stand out

The lesson you should learn is to ask the right questions and do your own research first - I know this is a strange concept but the onus is on you to do what is needed as opposed to changing everything to suit yourself to save you doing work


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Assuming that the other factors are optimised (e.g. by custom fitting), distance is only determined by loft angle and shaft length. I know from custom fitting sessions that changing the flex of the shaft affects spin rate and dispersion much more than distance. So yes, I would expect equally numbered clubs to be within a certain range of specification!  

Click to expand...

Two irons with the same loft that create different amounts of spin will go different distances. Therefore, the beginner you talk about who probably buys of the shelf and doesn't have a proper custom fitting still doesn't really know what he/she is buying. It doesn't matter if it has 7, 35 or rebecca stamped on the bottom of it, the buyer won't know from one set to the next how far each club will hit the ball...

...and if everyone did get custom fitted, it still wouldn't matter if your 6-iron was called Gavin, because you would know from your fitting how far you hit each club.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes you want things to change to cover your own error and mistake 

It takes seconds to find out the loft of the club and you could have asked that question yourself 

Manufacturers will continue to produce clubs without an industry standard because having a standard doesn't make them stand out

The lesson you should learn is to ask the right questions and do your own research first - I know this is a strange concept but the onus is on you to do what is needed as opposed to changing everything to suit yourself to save you doing work
		
Click to expand...

There are other considerations than jacked up (or rather down) lofts and tour pros hitting their clubs vast distances. How about quality (not a problem), accuracy and ease of use for ordinary golfers.  Ping go in for this, so why not Taylor Made?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			There are other considerations than jacked up (or rather down) lofts and tour pros hitting their clubs vast distances. How about quality (not a problem), accuracy and ease of use for ordinary golfers.  Ping go in for this, so why not Taylor Made?
		
Click to expand...

Eh ?! 

What is that post about ?


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			There are other considerations than jacked up (or rather down) lofts and tour pros hitting their clubs vast distances. How about quality (not a problem), accuracy and ease of use for ordinary golfers.  Ping go in for this, so why not Taylor Made?
		
Click to expand...

Hmm, Delc in changing the point of his post when he is losing the argument shocker


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			The Custom Fit for the Speed Blades was carried out by Complete Golfer at Northwood who are generally pretty good. The custom fit consisted of a chat about my handicap and distances, a few bodily measurements (height, floor to wrist etc), and hitting some shots off a lie board into a net, with a Trackman. I had tried the Speed Blades out at a TM demo day elsewhere. Typically I was only given a pitching wedge and a 7-iron to try, and hit them pretty well. There was no mention that they had particularly strong lofts, and the pro at Complete Golfer probably didn't know this either. Maybe you guys will now understand the motivation behind my original posting!  I really do think there should be an industry standard for golf club specs.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Seems more like a victim of your own incompetence to me! Did you take your own clubs in to calibrate? I'd be very surprised if the Pro selling the clubs wasn't aware of 'loft-jacking', as it had been going on for several years! May not have been a particularly bad C/F, albeit a Sales oriented one. The only problem is you (current/developed) inability to hit a 4 (or perhaps 5!) iron these days!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Hmm, Delc in changing the point of his post when he is losing the argument shocker
		
Click to expand...

I'm not losing the argument at all!  I suggested in my original posting that golf clubs should have their lofts stamped on them (as an old set of Titleist irons I still own actually do). While I am generally happy with my TM clubs, knowing what their lofts where would have stopped me from buying a 4-iron I can't use.  :mmm:


----------



## bobmac (Dec 22, 2014)

A set of irons used to be 3-PW, but it's now getting more like 6-GW!
		
Click to expand...

Where do you get that from?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2014)

It took an hour to work out yardages on the practice ground using my GPS device and taking an average. At my level that's as accurate as I need it. I could go and get on a launch monitor but don't feel it necessary. Just because Delc got bitten it seems he needs everyone to suddenly fall into line and have an industry standard. That won't happen and each off the shelf model has its own set of shafts which will give different results with different golfers. You'll never get two clubs even with equal loft going the same distance if there are variables (shaft, perimeter weighting, forged v cavity, hot face)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm not losing the argument at all!  I suggested in my original posting that golf clubs should have their lofts stamped on them (as an old set of Titleist irons I still own actually do). While I am generally happy with my TM clubs, knowing what their lofts where would have stopped me from buying a 4-iron I can't use.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Again that's your own fault for not doing your own research and not asking the right questions 

You want the industry to change to avoid you making mistakes when you make assumptions


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm not losing the argument at all!  I suggested in my original posting that golf clubs should have their lofts stamped on them (as an old set of Titleist irons I still own actually do). While I am generally happy with my TM clubs, knowing what their lofts where would have stopped me from buying a 4-iron I can't use.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

You're older than me, I assume you've been playing longer. When I had my custom fit for AP2s, which aren't as jacked as some, I decided to go with a 4H instead of a 4i because my swing is shallow and a hybrid is easier for me to hit out of the rough. I made that decision on the basis of understanding my swing, not the loft that is stamped on the bottom.

Your initial post was about beginners but it now transpires, yet again, that you want things changed to compensate for your own mistakes/inability.

If you're spending a decent amount of money on stuff, it is up to you to make sure what you're buying stuff that suits you. If you don't, that's your fault, no-one elses.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You're older than me, I assume you've been playing longer. When I had my custom fit for AP2s, which aren't as jacked as some, I decided to go with a 4H instead of a 4i because my swing is shallow and a hybrid is easier for me to hit out of the rough. I made that decision on the basis of understanding my swing, not the loft that is stamped on the bottom.

Your initial post was about beginners but it now transpires, yet again, that you want things changed to compensate for your own mistakes/inability.

If you're spending a decent amount of money on stuff, it is up to you to make sure what you're buying stuff that suits you. If you don't, that's your fault, no-one elses.
		
Click to expand...

Though, I believe The Complete Golfer offer some sort of money back guarantee! It wouldn't surprise me if Del's inability to hit the 4-iron arrived pretty much immediately after he was informed that it has the same loft as an 'old' 3-iron! 



Liverpoolphil said:



			...
You want the industry to change to avoid you making mistakes when you make assumptions
		
Click to expand...

It's why the put the 'Caution contents may be hot' on Microwave-able Food and 'Caution Contains Nuts' on packs of Peanuts!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It took an hour to work out yardages on the practice ground using my GPS device and taking an average. At my level that's as accurate as I need it. I could go and get on a launch monitor but don't feel it necessary. Just because Delc got bitten it seems he needs everyone to suddenly fall into line and have an industry standard. That won't happen and each off the shelf model has its own set of shafts which will give different results with different golfers. You'll never get two clubs even with equal loft going the same distance if there are variables (shaft, perimeter weighting, forged v cavity, hot face)
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately we don't have a practice ground as such at my club. We do have a practice range, but then you are using grotty one piece range balls that only go about 3/4 of the distance of proper golf balls, and you are not allowed to walk out to check your distances anyway, due to 'Ealth 'n Safety considerations. However I was able to work out my distances out on the course by trial and error and using a GPS watch.  My longer irons have a 'speed pocket' to give a hot face. Only problem with this is that if I hit a ball exactly off the sweet spot it goes about 20 yards further than normal!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Unfortunately we don't have a practice ground as such at my club. We do have a practice range, but then you are using grotty one piece range balls that only go about 3/4 of the distance of proper golf balls, and you are not allowed to walk out to check your distances anyway, due to 'Ealth 'n Safety considerations. However I was able to work out my distances out on the course by trial and error and using a GPS watch.  My longer irons have a 'speed pocket' to give a hot face. Only problem with this is that if I hit a ball exactly off the sweet spot it goes about 20 yards further than normal!  

Click to expand...

If you can't sort out distances in the first half dozen holes at your place, then there's no point trying to work out distances at all!


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2014)

Go out when the course is quiet and hit a few balls on each hole. Off 12 it doesn't have to be OCD accurate


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Though, I believe The Complete Golfer offer some sort of money back guarantee! It wouldn't surprise me if Del's inability to hit the 4-iron arrived pretty much immediately after he was informed that it has the same loft as an 'old' 3-iron! 



It's why the put the 'Caution contents may be hot' on Microwave-able Food and 'Caution Contains Nuts' on packs of Peanuts!
		
Click to expand...

I could just about hit the 4-iron in my Ping i15 set OK, but no chance (well maybe 1 shot out of 4) with the Speed Blades 4-iron. Even the 5-iron (23 degrees) is about the same as my Ping 4-iron (24 degrees) in terms of being easy to hit. Maybe Taylor Made clubs should also come with a health warning!   :mmm:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I could just about hit the 4-iron in my Ping i15 set OK, but no chance (well maybe 1 shot out of 4) with the Speed Blades 4-iron. Even the 5-iron (23 degrees) is about the same as my Ping 4-iron (24 degrees). Maybe Taylor Made clubs should also come with a health warning!   :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

But TM, Wilson and others have been cranking lofts for years and there's been plenty on here over the years to that effect so it shouldn't have come as that much of a surprise surely?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I could just about hit the 4-iron in my Ping i15 set OK, but no chance (well maybe 1 shot out of 4) with the Speed Blades 4-iron. Even the 5-iron (23 degrees) is about the same as my Ping 4-iron (24 degrees) in terms of being easy to hit. Maybe Taylor Made clubs should also come with a health warning!   :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Once again - research and asking questions would have given you an idea 

Blaming Taylor Made doesn't change you making the error


----------



## BTatHome (Dec 22, 2014)

Delc, don't assume Ping are innocent. Have you seen the specs of the Karsten irons?


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I could just about hit the 4-iron in my Ping i15 set OK, but no chance (well maybe 1 shot out of 4) with the Speed Blades 4-iron. Even the 5-iron (23 degrees) is about the same as my Ping 4-iron (24 degrees) in terms of being easy to hit. Maybe Taylor Made clubs should also come with a health warning!   :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

So did you avail yourself of the money back guarantee? Or swap it for a hybrid? 

Another poor decision?


----------



## Imurg (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			I could just about hit the 4-iron in my Ping i15 set OK, but no chance (well maybe 1 shot out of 4) with the Speed Blades 4-iron. Even the 5-iron (23 degrees) is about the same as my Ping 4-iron (24 degrees) in terms of being easy to hit. Maybe Taylor Made clubs should also come with a health warning!   :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Although the lofts are strong, they are designed to be easier to use than long irons from far back in the mists of time. Low CoG means a higher launch.
The fact that you can't use a modern 20Â°4 iron is probably more to do with you thinking you can't hit one rather than it being a stronger loft. You're probably trying to help it into the air and putting a dodgy swing on it rather than swinging normally and letting the tech actually help you.


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			If you can't sort out distances in the first half dozen holes at your place, then there's no point trying to work out distances at all! 

Click to expand...

Problem is that our course is on the side of a hill overlooking the Colne Valley and very exposed, and it almost always seems to be windy there, even when it's flat calm everywhere else. Calm days, when you can accurately check your basic distances are about as rare as hen's teeth!  :mmm:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Problem is that our course is on the side of a hill overlooking the Colne Valley and very exposed, and it almost always seems to be windy there, even when it's flat calm everywhere else. Calm days, when you can accurately check your basic distances are about as rare as hen's teeth!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I'm sure you could find somewhere, even someone with a launch monitor, and get some average numbers. There must be some holes that are more sheltered


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Problem is that our course is on the side of a hill overlooking the Colne Valley and very exposed, and it almost always seems to be windy there, even when it's flat calm everywhere else. Calm days, when you can accurately check your basic distances are about as rare as hen's teeth!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

If your course is always windy, then surely the best place to test them is in the wind on the course you play most often?


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So did you avail yourself of the money back guarantee? Or swap it for a hybrid? 

Another poor decision? 

Click to expand...

I have replaced it for everyday use with a TM RBZ2 5-hybrid which I bought quite cheaply as an ex-demo club on ebay. That goes about the right distance and is very easy to hit.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			Problem is that our course is on the side of a hill overlooking the Colne Valley and very exposed, and it almost always seems to be windy there, even when it's flat calm everywhere else. Calm days, when you can accurately check your basic distances are about as rare as hen's teeth!  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Had experienced several calm days at your place, along with a couple of breezy ones. That's why I stated the 1st 6 holes - you've done 360* via 3 different directions by the 6th green. Sitting out on the terrace watching the sun go down at your place after a round is normally extremely pleasant!

You really just seem to be looking for excuses!

And still haven't answered my question - repeated yet again - about the money back guarantee!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Although the lofts are strong, they are designed to be easier to use than long irons from far back in the mists of time. Low CoG means a higher launch.
The fact that you can't use a modern 20Â°4 iron is probably more to do with you thinking you can't hit one rather than it being a stronger loft. You're probably trying to help it into the air and putting a dodgy swing on it rather than swinging normally and letting the tech actually help you.
		
Click to expand...

The TM 5-iron with 23 degrees of loft is marginally easier to hit than the Ping 4-iron with 24 degrees of loft!  :mmm:


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Had experienced several calm days at your place, along with a couple of breezy ones. That's why I stated the 1st 6 holes - you've done 360* via 3 different directions by the 6th green. Sitting out on the terrace watching the sun go down at your place after a round is normally extremely pleasant!

You really just seem to be looking for excuses!

And still haven't answered my question - repeated yet again - about the money back guarantee!
		
Click to expand...

No I haven't availed myself of the money back guarantee, because there's nothing wrong with it, apart from my inabilty to hit it!


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			No I haven't availed myself of the money back guarantee, because there's nothing wrong with it, apart from my inabilty to hit it!
		
Click to expand...

Just checked..not available for Custom Fits. 

Even more of a reason to get it right during the fit! And you only tried the PW and 7i!  Caveat emptor!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Just checked..not available for Custom Fits. 

Even more of a reason to get it right during the fit! And you only tried the PW and 7i!  Caveat emptor!
		
Click to expand...

What isn't available for custom fits?  I think most demo clubs only come as 7-irons, and I was probably lucky to be able to try out a PW.


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2014)

delc said:



			What isn't available for custom fits?  I think most demo clubs only come as 7-irons, and I was probably lucky to be able to try out a PW.  

Click to expand...




Foxholer said:





delc said:



			Do you ever read properly what people write?  Or do you just make up what you think they might have wrote?  

Click to expand...

Wow! If there's ever a case of Pot and Kettle!!!  :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

A classic example! 

For the sake of my sanity, I'm out - to watch some football!


----------



## delc (Dec 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			A classic example! 

For the sake of my sanity, I'm out - to watch some football!
		
Click to expand...

If you mean that a money back guarantee is not available for custom fitted clubs, where does it say that on their website. I did have a minor problem with one of the wedges and that was sorted out under guarantee.


----------



## delc (Dec 23, 2014)

Just out of interest, I dug my old set of Titleist DCI's out of the cupboard under the stairs to check the numbers and lofts stamped on the heads. They are as follows:
SW 56, PW 48, 9 44, 8 40, 7 36, 6 32, 5 28, 4 24, 3 21. 

So even then a small amount of loft strengthening was going on!  However the loft increments between clubs are all 4 degrees except for the PW and the 3-iron. Some modern clubs only have 2 degrees between clubs at the long iron end, but 12 degrees between the SW and PW. No wonder we need gap wedges!

Please also note that the 9-iron has pretty much the same loft (and length) as a modern day PW.  :mmm:


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2014)

delc said:



			Please also note that the 9-iron has pretty much the same loft (and length) as a modern day PW.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Not ALL modern day PWs! As a random pick, Titleist current range MBs/CBs have 47* PW, AP2s 46*. It's only the GI AP1s that are at 44*. Same/similar applies to TM and I'm almost certain will be the same with other OEMs too.

It does pay to look at the specs of all the clubs though. There are some 5* gaps snuck in on occasions!


----------



## IainP (Dec 23, 2014)

This thread has been all over the place and do not wish to be drawn into some of it, but going right back to the OP, I'd make this observation.

Excluding the putter, I currently have 13 other clubs in the bag and 7 of those have the loft on them. So yes I'd quite like it if the other 6 did also.

As others have said, when I acquired them I looked up the specs and saved them so I do know what they are and hence it is not a bog deal.

Cheers


----------



## delc (Dec 23, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Not ALL modern day PWs! As a random pick, Titleist current range MBs/CBs have 47* PW, AP2s 46*. It's only the GI AP1s that are at 44*. Same/similar applies to TM and I'm almost certain will be the same with other OEMs too.

It does pay to look at the specs of all the clubs though. There are some 5* gaps snuck in on occasions!
		
Click to expand...

The PW in my TM SpeedBlade iron set has a loft of 45 degrees.  The full spec of these irons is given in the following link:

http://taylormadegolf.co.uk/SpeedBlade-Irons/DW-SQ047.html

Worth noting that the loft of the TM 7-iron (normal demo club) is 5.5 degrees stronger than the Titleist DCI 7-iron, and the 4-iron has less loft than the Titleist 3-iron!


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 24, 2014)

Do a test.  Hit the DCI 3iron and put it up against the 5 iron speed blade.   see which goes further,which launches easier and what the dispersion is like.


----------



## delc (Dec 24, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			Do a test.  Hit the DCI 3iron and put it up against the 5 iron speed blade.   see which goes further,which launches easier and what the dispersion is like.
		
Click to expand...

Probably wouldn't be a totally fair comparison, because the Titleist irons have stiff steel shafts, from my younger days when I was stronger and longer, whilst the SpeedBlades are fitted with Lightweight Steel Regular shafts.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Probably wouldn't be a totally fair comparison, because the Titleist irons have stiff steel shafts, from my younger days when I was stronger and longer, whilst the SpeedBlades are fitted with Lightweight Steel Regular shafts.  

Click to expand...


The difference will be next to nothing.  Just hit both out of the middle.


----------



## delc (Dec 24, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Delc, don't assume Ping are innocent. Have you seen the specs of the Karsten irons?
		
Click to expand...

Ping Karsten irons only go down to a 5-iron which is 24 degrees. Below that it's 3-5 hybrids. See:

http://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=16428

Hybrids are a relatively new phenomenon by the way, and add to the confusion because number for  number they hit the ball further than irons, but less far than fairway woods. Don't think rescue/hybrids existed 25 years ago!

:mmm:


----------



## Jimaroid (Dec 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Just out of interest, I dug my old set of Titleist DCI's out of the cupboard under the stairs to check the numbers and lofts stamped on the heads. They are as follows:
SW 56, PW 48, 9 44, 8 40, 7 36, 6 32, 5 28, 4 24, 3 21.
		
Click to expand...

How long are the shafts? And how do they compare to your modern clubs?

There is more to the distance and flight of a ball than the loft. And none of it matters if you know how far you can hit a club.


----------



## delc (Dec 24, 2014)

Jimaroid said:



			How long are the shafts? And how do they compare to your modern clubs?

There is more to the distance and flight of a ball than the loft. And none of it matters if you know how far you can hit a club.
		
Click to expand...

Number for number they are slightly shorter, but for a given loft they are about the same!  :mmm:


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 24, 2014)

Maybe you should write to the OEMs and tell them your thoughts? Or, as is your want, continue to flog a dead horse on here?


----------



## delc (Dec 24, 2014)

I took the Titleist DCI's for a spin round the course today and scored 35 points (85 gross) with them, which is a bit better than my recent average! I just had to remember that the PW was really the Gap Wedge, the 9-iron was really the PW, and to take one or two more clubs more from a given distance to allow for the extra loft. Ideally they need re-gripping because the grips have gone a bit hard over time, but they were still nice to play with, and I hit quite a few really good shots with them. I didn't take the 3-iron with me, but the 4-iron was very easy to hit, unlike its Taylor Made equivalent!


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Maybe you should write to the OEMs and tell them your thoughts? Or, as is your want, continue to flog a dead horse on here?
		
Click to expand...

I am just trying to make people aware of what has been a long term scam by club manufacturers. Basically if you try clubs out you are always given a 7-iron, because it is probably the easiest club to hit. If Brand X's 7-iron goes further than the competitors, then you will be impressed and buy the full set. 

So the trick is make the 7-iron loft as strong as they think they can get away with and then fit the other clubs around this to give a reasonable progression in distance, about 10-12 yards per club for an average player. However the problems come with the short irons where you can get a 12 degree gap between the Sand Iron (which still needs at least 55 degrees of loft to do its job) and the Pitching Wedge, and the long irons, where the lofts either become impossibly strong, or you have to start reducing the loft gaps between them (which many manufactures are now doing, some to as little as 2 degrees between clubs). 

The theory is that the customer will be happy because he is now apparently hitting his short irons miles (as indeed he should do if his 8-iron is really a 6-iron), and the manufacturer will be able to sell you a long iron that you probably won't be able to use and an additional gap wedge, so more profit for them!

Does this benefit your golf? Probably not at all, as I proved yesterday by playing with an old set of clubs and getting a better score than normal, and beating my friend who was using very new clubs from a premium supplier. The difference was that at a certain par-3 hole he used a 6-iron and I used a 4-iron. Both shots were well struck, had a similar trajectory and both finished 10 feet from the hole! QED!

Happy Xmas


----------



## BTatHome (Dec 25, 2014)

The only person to blame, is the customer themselves .... if the only thing they are buying irons for is to hit them further then they should educate themselves some more.

Recently tested irons last week and found a 'cranked loft' 7 iron only went a couple of yards further, but had better launch, better spin, higher peak height, and much much better dispersion. Do I care that the lofts are cranked ... No ! Do I care that they only have one number on the bottom ... No ! Would I want the degree on the bottom too ... No, as the only time I would care about it is when buying more clubs, otherwise they are absolutely useless.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 25, 2014)

The long irons on these modern clubs are much easier to launch than old long irons due to the advancement in weighting. 


You can now hit an iron 180/190yards much easier. Thumping an old iron 190yards is quite difficult. 

I play old style lofts. 190 for me I would have to think about my hybrid whereas my mate with xhot irons can reach with a 4iron quite easily.


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			The only person to blame, is the customer themselves .... if the only thing they are buying irons for is to hit them further then they should educate themselves some more.

Recently tested irons last week and found a 'cranked loft' 7 iron only went a couple of yards further, but had better launch, better spin, higher peak height, and much much better dispersion. Do I care that the lofts are cranked ... No ! Do I care that they only have one number on the bottom ... No ! Would I want the degree on the bottom too ... No, as the only time I would care about it is when buying more clubs, otherwise they are absolutely useless.
		
Click to expand...

For some reason, people always seem to be impressed by how far certain players can hit Pitching wedges and other short irons. I believe that Rory McIroy can hit an 8-iron about 180 yards! I can hit my TM SpeedBlade PW with 45 degrees of loft about 100 yards, but the Titleist DCI PW with 48 degrees of loft only about 80 yards. So what! I have a Gap Wedge of 50 degrees loft to do a similar job in my SpeedBlade set. As long as you don't want to get into a macho contest about who can hit a certain numbered club the further, it doesn't matter a jot. As they say, the scorecard shows no pictures!  The Titleist DCI's are decent semi-Game Improvement irons, albeit with rather traditional lofts by modern standards. The heads are easy to line up and they have decent shafts, so they do the business pretty well.


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			The long irons on these modern clubs are much easier to launch than old long irons due to the advancement in weighting. 


You can now hit an iron 180/190yards much easier. Thumping an old iron 190yards is quite difficult. 

I play old style lofts. 190 for me I would have to think about my hybrid whereas my mate with xhot irons can reach with a 4iron quite easily.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one. I bought a 4-iron with my TM SpeedBlade set and can hardly get it airborne, let alone any distance. This is probably because it has so little loft. Yet oddly enough I have no problem with similarly lofted hybrids, so I use those instead. I also had no problem hitting the 4-iron in my old Titleist DCI set, but that does have rather more loft. I was quite impressed by how much stop I could get on the green with that club, but it probably now has illegal grooves! I should qualify this by saying I'm a senior golfer with a bit less swing speed than I used to have.


----------



## Imurg (Dec 25, 2014)

So because you can't hit a modern 4 iron they are harder to hit than 4 irons from years ago......

For the vast majority of players it is easier to use a modern 4 iron than one from 20-30 years ago.
The well ghting in the club head makes it easier to launch - although I've said this twice already and you don't seem to have noticed. Higher launch means stronger lofts unless to want a golf ball fitted nasally....
Modern drivers are bigger and have more forgiveness than those from days of yore...some people struggle with modern drivers but the vast majority find them easier to use.
Or are you still using a driver from 20 years ago as well.....


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 25, 2014)




----------



## tsped83 (Dec 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one. I bought a 4-iron with my TM SpeedBlade set and can hardly get it airborne, let alone any distance. This is probably because it has so little loft. Yet oddly enough I have no problem with similarly lofted hybrids, so I use those instead. I also had no problem hitting the 4-iron in my old Titleist DCI set, but that does have rather more loft. I was quite impressed by how much stop I could get on the green with that club, but it probably now has illegal grooves! I should qualify this by saying I'm a senior golfer with a bit less swing speed than I used to have.  

Click to expand...

Maybe you can't hit a 4 iron speedblade because you're crap?


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

Titleist DCI specs:

SW 56, PW 48, 9 44, 8 40, 7 36, 6 32, 5 28, 4 24, 3 21 degrees.

TM Speedblade specs:

SW 55, GW 50, PW 45, 9 39.5, 8 34.5, 7 30.5, 6 26.5, 5 23, 4 20, 3 17.

You can see that the lofts on the TM's are considerably stronger than than those of the Titleists.  The Titleist 4-iron has pretty much the same loft as the TM 5-iron, so it should be (and is) easy the hit. 

On the other hand, the TM 4-iron actually has less loft than the Titleist 3-iron, and I don't think that any amount of sole weighting can make up for that.

I would suggest that normal folk should stick to 5-SW if buying TM Speedblades.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Dec 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Titleist DCI specs:

SW 56, PW 48, 9 44, 8 40, 7 36, 6 32, 5 28, 4 24, 3 21 degrees.

TM Speedblade specs:

SW 55, GW 50, PW 45, 9 39.5, 8 34.5, 7 30.5, 6 26.5, 5 23, 4 20, 3 17.

You can see that the lofts on the TM's are considerably stronger than than those of the Titleists.  The Titleist 4-iron has pretty much the same loft as the TM 5-iron, so it should be (and is) easy the hit. 

On the other hand, the TM 4-iron actually has less loft than the Titleist 3-iron, and I don't think that any amount of sole weighting can make up for that.

I would suggest that normal folk should stick to 5-SW if buying TM Speedblades.  

Click to expand...

Would it not be better to suggest just that if you're buying a set of clubs, you try the bottom, middle and top of the range?

You do seem to be able to extrapolate your own results and findings to the whole golfing population


----------



## BTatHome (Dec 25, 2014)

Love the way you can ignore replies and just write whatever you want in response.

Sorry but the idea of newer higher launch clubs seems to have missed you, and you just can't get around the loft issue that you seem to have, no matter how many times people say it you just ignore the facts.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 25, 2014)

Delc do you take divots at all ?


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Would it not be better to suggest just that if you're buying a set of clubs, you try the bottom, middle and top of the range?

You do seem to be able to extrapolate your own results and findings to the whole golfing population 

Click to expand...

Yeah, good advice IF they will let you try out a long iron!  I sort of assumed that because I had no problems with a 3-PW iron set in the past, I would have no problems with a 4-SW set, even allowing for the slightly stronger lofts in modern clubs.  However I didn't realize exactly how strong the loft was on the 4-iron!


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			Delc do you take divots at all ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but fairly shallow ones.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Yes, but fairly shallow ones.  

Click to expand...

Was thinking you might not be presenting enough dynamic loft at impact.

You shouldn't have any problem if you can hit the 3i from the old set.  Its only 1whole degree less than the speed blade 4iron


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Love the way you can ignore replies and just write whatever you want in response.

Sorry but the idea of newer higher launch clubs seems to have missed you, and you just can't get around the loft issue that you seem to have, no matter how many times people say it you just ignore the facts.
		
Click to expand...

If you concentrate most of the weight of the club head in the sole, so that its centre of gravity is below the middle of the ball, you will get a higher launch at the expense of a little less energy transfer, because the club head/face will twist upwards at the point of impact.  The most efficient energy transfer will occur if the c of g of the club head is level with the centre of the ball.


----------



## Maninblack4612 (Dec 25, 2014)

Does delc believe that the manufacturers bring out these clubs without testing them on real, average, golfers? I have recently gone from TM MC irons, to MP 53, to MX 23 and each successive 3 & 4 iron has been easier to hit. The objective for anyone should be to have the longest, lowest lofted iron in the bag, *that you can hit reasonably consistently.*For some, this will be a 5 iron. I'm roughly the same age as delc but still quite strong & flexible. I'd rather use a long iron than a hybrid in the wind, because of the lower flight & I couldn't care less what loft it has or what it's called. As long as I can use it, that's all that matters.

As I said before, an iron set should consist of evenly gapped clubs, starting with the lowest loft you can handle & finishing with a 9 iron about 4Â° less lofted than your pitching wedge. The hybrids should fill the gap between your longest iron & driver. Names don't matter at all, as long as you know how far each one goes.


----------



## Imurg (Dec 25, 2014)

delc said:



			If you concentrate most of the weight of the club head in the sole, so that its centre of gravity is below the middle of the ball, you will get a higher launch at the expense of a little less energy transfer, because the club head/face will twist upwards at the point of impact.  The most efficient energy transfer will occur if the c of g of the club head is level with the centre of the ball.  

Click to expand...

Maybe that's why the shafts are a little longer - to minimise the effect of this loss of energy transfer...


----------



## delc (Dec 25, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Maybe that's why the shafts are a little longer - to minimise the effect of this loss of energy transfer...
		
Click to expand...

Longer shafts and a wider radius of swing will give you more club head speed, which is why drivers are longer than wedges. Distance is more important for drivers and control is more important for wedges. Longer shafts and more club head speed is probably why I get on with hybrids, but not long irons. With hybrids I can impart enough impetus and backspin onto the ball to make it fly properly.

Irons have grown about an inch longer since 1980 to give a increase in distance. Probably a good thing as the population of the world in general is getting a bit taller.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Longer shafts and a wider radius of swing will give you more club head speed, which is why drivers are longer than wedges. Distance is more important for drivers and control is more important for wedges. Longer shafts and more club head speed is probably why I get on with hybrids, but not long irons. With hybrids I can impart enough impetus and backspin onto the ball to make it fly properly.

Irons have grown about an inch longer since 1980 to give a increase in distance. Probably a good thing as the population of the world in general is getting a bit taller.  

Click to expand...

keep flogging it, it's nearly dead....


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

Interestingly, Taylor Made's better player irons ,such as the CB and MB, have far less cranked down lofts than the Speedblades. The 3-irons have a loft of 21 degrees, compared with 20 degrees for the SpeedBlade 4-iron! :mmm:


----------



## Imurg (Dec 27, 2014)

delc said:



			Interestingly, Taylor Made's better player irons ,such as the CB and MB, have far less cranked down lofts than the Speedblades. The 3-irons have a loft of 21 degrees, compared with 20 degrees for the SpeedBlade 4-iron! :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Could that because the better player doesn't need a lower CoG to help the ball in the air, their irons don't launch into the stratosphere thus requiring stronger lofts to keep the ball out of orbit....?
How many times do you need to hear this..?


----------



## BTatHome (Dec 27, 2014)

Shock horror, different clubs have different lofts !

I wonder if that really is a revelation ?


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Could that because the better player doesn't need a lower CoG to help the ball in the air, their irons don't launch into the stratosphere thus requiring stronger lofts to keep the ball out of orbit....?
How many times do you need to hear this..?
		
Click to expand...

So strange how I can get the ball airborne and flying a decent distance with my Titleist DCI 3-iron (21 degree loft) which doesn't have a particularly low c of g, but I struggle to do this with the SpeedBlade 4-iron (20 degrees loft) which allegedly does have a low c of g! 

The distance a club will hit a ball is 95% down to loft and shaft length. This is just simple physics. You can vary it a little bit by different shaft flexes and club head c of g's, but not by that much.


----------



## Lump (Dec 27, 2014)

delc said:



			The distance a club will hit a ball is 95% down to loft and shaft length. This is just simple physics. You can vary it a little bit by different shaft flexes and club head c of g's, but not by that much. 

Click to expand...

No it isn't. Its more simple, its down to club head speed.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Dec 27, 2014)

delc said:



			So strange how I can get the ball airborne and flying a decent distance with my Titleist DCI 3-iron (21 degree loft) which doesn't have a particularly low c of g, but I struggle to do this with the SpeedBlade 4-iron (20 degrees loft) which allegedly does have a low c of g! 

The distance a club will hit a ball is 95% down to loft and shaft length. This is just simple physics. You can vary it a little bit by different shaft flexes and club head c of g's, but not by that much. 

Click to expand...

That's all you Del. all you. Completely.

Not the club.

You.


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

Lump said:



			No it isn't. Its more simple, its down to club head speed.
		
Click to expand...

I meant for a given swing speed or golfer, but not club head speed, as that will vary according to shaft length.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 27, 2014)

Go get a video of you at the range hitting this three iron  and the speed blade 4 iron.


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			Go get a video of you at the range hitting this three iron  and the speed blade 4 iron.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry no video, but I tried this on the range today. I could hit the Titleist 4-iron pretty well, but both the Titleist 3-iron and the SpeedBlade 4-iron actually went less far and where generally less straight. I was much longer, straighter and more consistent with a 19 degree hybrid! 

This was using range balls btw, so I might have done better with decent golf balls.


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 27, 2014)

delc said:



			Sorry no video, but I tried this on the range today. I could hit the Titleist 4-iron pretty well, but both the Titleist 3-iron and the SpeedBlade 4-iron actually went less far and where generally less straight. I was much longer, straighter and more consistent with a 19 degree hybrid! 
.
		
Click to expand...

No surprise there. Hybrids have bigger sweetspots and weighted to get a high flight.  I play old lofts and the lowest iron in my bag is 5 iron.  Consistency for me after this iron is the reason I go with a hybrid.  I could and have played a 4i but the hybrid gives me better results more often than not.


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

Looking on the positive side, I have a set of TM irons that cover the range of lofts I can reasonably hit with Nos 5-SW + GW (8 irons) and with mostly 5 degree gaps. On the other hand I have the Titleist 4-SW with no GW (also 8 irons), with mostly 4 degree gaps.  This leaves me with a bit of a dilemma. I can sell the Taylor Mades and regrip the Titleists, sell the Titleists and the TM 4-iron, or sell both sets and start again. The Titleists include a particularly nice 56 degree Sand Wedge, so I might keep that.


----------



## shewy (Dec 27, 2014)

Sorry del but tbh im mince at golf but i hit the speedblade 4 iron fine, i chose a 4h as it's probably more versatile,i get more distance out of the 4i.but i do agree the strong lofts can mess with either end of the bag


----------



## delc (Dec 27, 2014)

shewy said:



			Sorry del but tbh im mince at golf but i hit the speedblade 4 iron fine, i chose a 4h as it's probably more versatile,i get more distance out of the 4i.but i do agree the strong lofts can mess with either end of the bag
		
Click to expand...

That probably depends on your shot shape. My basic shot is a lowish draw that can become a snap hook. If you hit a high fade, then it will probably work quite well for you.


----------



## shewy (Dec 28, 2014)

Watch the fitting video this month i really dont do high fades lol.
point being is modern 4 irons are pretty easy to hit these days,i tried my old boys irons the other day and i just managed to get the butter on with the 3 iron!


----------

