# A question about course rating



## louise_a (Mar 22, 2022)

We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off. 

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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I believe the Dukes red Tee at Woburn is over 6000 yards and that’s rated so I can’t see there being any truth in it but worth contacting the county to confirm


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## yandabrown (Mar 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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Nonsense. We have had our yellows rated and they are almost 6400. Slope is something like 146 and Course Rating is over 5 higher.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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I think there is some truth as really only a handful of players would use it very infrequently and rating a course is not a short time frame exercise.  I would also ask ‘why’?


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## louise_a (Mar 22, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			I think there is some truth as really only a handful of players would use it very infrequently and rating a course is not a short time frame exercise.  I would also ask ‘why’?
		
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Some of us would like to play of the yellows sometimes and if we are going towards gender neutral tees then surely it should be done.


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## hairball_89 (Mar 22, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			I think there is some truth as really only a handful of players would use it very infrequently and rating a course is not a short time frame exercise.  I would also ask ‘why’?
		
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Surely whether it would get used is a completely different argument to "it's over 6000 yards"?


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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Sheringham Golf Club (Norfolk) has had all tees rated for both Male and Female players. The Whites are 6251yds Par 75 CR 76.4 Slope 132 for Ladies. Trentham Park (Staffordshire) has apparently also been rated for both sexes, with 2 sets of tees over 6k yards. But I couldn't confirm Ratings.
A 2015 article here https://www.englandgolf.org/teeing-up-the-gender-free-way/
I think your H'Cap Sec _is_ fobbing you off! Kaz probably states it better!


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## wjemather (Mar 22, 2022)

Sadly there are many people, somewhat unbelievably including some county raters, who still haven't embraced the idea of gender neutral tees, especially when it comes to rating more tees for women.


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## louise_a (Mar 22, 2022)

yes it does seem as he is trying to shine us on,  I originally asked and was told there would bew no interest and now someone else has asked and he has come up with the 6000yd thing. 
Thanks for all the replies which confirm what I thought.


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## rulefan (Mar 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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Nonsense. If he tries to tell you it is too expensive - it's free. The county raters could be busy but they can give you a temporary rating which lasts 2 years

Get in touch with your Association.
Telephone: 0161 270 3824
Email: secretary@llcga.org 
The county raters could be busy but they can give you a temporary rating which lasts 2 years


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## fenwayrich (Mar 23, 2022)

We have just gone through the process of getting our yellow tee course (6,032 yards) rated for female players. Not difficult. In a couple of weeks we will have a mixed gender competition where men can choose any of 4 tees (blue, white, yellow, red) and ladies can select yellow or red. I expect that only 2 ladies will enter but at least we're trying to promote the spirit of modern day golf.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			We have just gone through the process of getting our yellow tee course (6,032 yards) rated for female players. *Not difficult*. In a couple of weeks we will have a mixed gender competition where men can choose any of 4 tees (blue, white, yellow, red) and ladies can select yellow or red. I expect that only 2 ladies will enter but at least we're trying to promote the spirit of modern day golf.
		
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Unfortunately, the same cannot be said in all counties. All our comps are now mixed, but due to the refusal of county to do any (re)rating until 2026, men and women are restricted to playing from the same gendered tees.


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## rulefan (Mar 23, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Unfortunately, the same cannot be said in all counties. All our comps are now mixed, but due to the refusal of county to do any (re)rating until 2026, men and women are restricted to playing from the same gendered tees.
		
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Bypassing the county, England golf can issue temporary ratings.

I suspect writing to EG and 'copying in' the county may embarrass the county into getting their finger out. Especially re multi gender.


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## wjemather (Mar 23, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Bypassing the county, England golf can issue temporary ratings.

I suspect writing to EG and 'copying in' the county may embarrass the county into getting their finger out. Especially re multi gender.
		
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We're hoping not to have to resort to anything like that, but we may have to if it drags on much longer.


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## Slab (Mar 30, 2022)

I know its been debunked already but I knew most courses here were rated for both so just had a look at the longer ones for women from the back tees (each around 7500yrds):

Par 72 CR 83.2 Slope 148
Par 72 CR 82.3 Slope 150 
Par 72 CR 83.1 Slope 149


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## 2blue (Mar 30, 2022)

Slab said:



			I know its been debunked already but I knew most courses here were rated for both so just had a look at the longer ones for women from the back tees (each around 7500yrds):

Par 72 CR 83.2 Slope 148
Par 72 CR 82.3 Slope 150
Par 72 CR 83.1 Slope 149



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So am I right in thinking that in a mixed Comp they would receive an additional 10 or 11 shots after the Slope calc? Then 95% if an individual Comp.


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## wjemather (Mar 30, 2022)

2blue said:



			So am I right in thinking that in a mixed Comp they would receive an additional 10 or 11 shots after the Slope calc? Then 95% if an individual Comp.
		
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The mixed tee allowance would depend on the CR for men, which I expect would be about 76 for a 7500 yard course (possibly higher).


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## Slab (Mar 30, 2022)

2blue said:



			So am I right in thinking that in a mixed Comp they would receive an additional 10 or 11 shots after the Slope calc? Then 95% if an individual Comp.
		
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No idea what it'd work out in shots, but if a scratch player is expecting to shoot 11 over it'll be a fair few shots


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2022)

2blue said:



			So am I right in thinking that in a mixed Comp they would receive an additional 10 or 11 shots after the Slope calc? Then 95% if an individual Comp.
		
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That would depend on their handicap and what you are comparing 'additional' to!
But a Female with HI of scratch would be 'expected' to shoot 83; 82; 83 resp and one with HI of 12 would have CH of 16; HI of 24, then CH of 32. So 'expected' scores woud be 99, 98, 99 (12 capper) and 115, 114, 115 (24 capper).
Simply another reason why par is somewhat irrelevant!


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## wjemather (Mar 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			...a Female with HI of scratch would be 'expected' to shoot 83; 82; 83 resp and one with HI of 12 would have CH of 16; HI of 24, then CH of 32. So 'expected' scores would be 99, 98, 99 (12 capper) and 115, 114, 115 (24 capper).
		
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This isn't true since golfers only play to handicap (or better) about 1/5 of the time, on average. Their expected scores are at least a stroke or two higher than this.


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## rulefan (Mar 30, 2022)

wjemather said:



			This isn't true since golfers only play to handicap (or better) about 1/5 of the time, on average. Their expected scores are at least a stroke or two higher than this.
		
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Demonstrated by their Index being the average of the BEST 8 from 20.


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2022)

wjemather said:



			This isn't true since golfers only play to handicap (or better) about 1/5 of the time, on average. Their expected scores are at least a stroke or two higher than this.
		
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That was the reason for the quote marks around 'expected'.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 31, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			I think there is some truth as really only a handful of players would use it very infrequently and rating a course is not a short time frame exercise.  I would also ask ‘why’?
		
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We are trying to get our yellows rated for ladies. The main reason being it gives an alternative to their single option of playing from the red tees and provides a championship option and also makes it more accessible for county / regional events.


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## Doh (Apr 18, 2022)

We have done this for our ladies we also have done it for the men off the red tees which makes sense in the winter.


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## wolrab79 (Apr 18, 2022)

In my opinion all uk golf clubs should get courses rated of all tees for all sexes, my daughter plays national competitions and the courses are always lengthened to represent the standard of play by England golf or Wales golf etc.. I think a bigger problem is the tees for ladies are too short and demeaning for good lady golfers who hit a 260-280 yards drive on a par 5 that is 394 yards long. Men don't have that problem if you play off 54 handicap then you play of the yellows or back tees whatever. She regularly practices at two clubs who have been told by England golf not to get the courses rated for ladies of the back tees??? Surely this will hold back any future development of lady golfers?


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## doublebogey7 (Apr 18, 2022)

wolrab79 said:



			In my opinion all uk golf clubs should get courses rated of all tees for all sexes, my daughter plays national competitions and the courses are always lengthened to represent the standard of play by England golf or Wales golf etc.. I think a bigger problem is the tees for ladies are too short and demeaning for good lady golfers who hit a 260-280 yards drive on a par 5 that is 394 yards long. Men don't have that problem if you play off 54 handicap then you play of the yellows or back tees whatever. *She regularly practices at two clubs who have been told by England golf not to get the courses rated for ladies of the back tees??? Surely this will hold back any future development of lady golfers?*

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I very much doubt that is the case,  given that EG is trying to encourage all tees to be gender-free.  More likely the county assessors are not keen to do it as it adds a not an insignificant time to the process.


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2022)

wolrab79 said:



			In my opinion all uk golf clubs should get courses rated of all tees for all sexes, my daughter plays national competitions and the courses are always lengthened to represent the standard of play by England golf or Wales golf etc.. I think a bigger problem is the tees for ladies are too short and demeaning for good lady golfers who hit a 260-280 yards drive on a par 5 that is 394 yards long. Men don't have that problem if you play off 54 handicap then you play of the yellows or back tees whatever. She regularly practices at two clubs who have been told by England golf not to get the courses rated for ladies of the back tees??? Surely this will hold back any future development of lady golfers?
		
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In my experience, it is club committees and county rating teams that are the obstacle, not EG. (I posted about this earlier; see #8)

Anyway, not having tees rated may prevent submission of scores for handicapping, but it doesn't prevent play from those tees. If clubs are not allowing women to play from longer tees, then that is an issue to be raised with the club.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 18, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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Just had a look our red tees are 6187 yards so I'd suggest he is fobbing you off


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Just had a look our red tees are 6187 yards so I'd suggest he is fobbing you off
		
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Likewise..we are 6192yds off yellows and these have been rated for ladies.


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## chellie (Apr 18, 2022)

I was told they will only rate white and yellow tees for ladies if the club plans to run competitions that ladies can enter from those tees.


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2022)

chellie said:



			I was told they will only rate white and yellow tees for ladies if the club plans to run competitions that ladies can enter from those tees.
		
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As it is a pretty costly exercise for the County it seems a pretty pragmatic stance.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 18, 2022)

chellie said:



			I was told they will only rate white and yellow tees for ladies if the club plans to run competitions that ladies can enter from those tees.
		
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I'm sure we have had this debate before. I am convinced the wrong question was asked during the initial assessment. It wasn't "what tees do you want rating for men and ladies?" it was "what tees do your men and ladies play from?" Hence in most cases it was Red for ladies and yellow / White for men. If the questions was asked now I suspect there might be different answers.


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2022)

louise_a said:



			We would like a course rating for our yellows tees for female players, we have been told that it cant be done because the course is over 6000yds. It doesn't seem right to me and I am wondering if our men's handicap secretary is just trying to fob us off.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth in what he says.
		
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None


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Likewise..we are 6192yds off yellows and these have been rated for ladies.
		
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I think the presence of a particular female member would likely have provided incentive for that!


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2022)

chellie said:



			I was told they will only rate white and yellow tees for ladies if the club plans to run competitions that ladies can enter from those tees.
		
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There's a simple reply to/for that then.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 28, 2022)

Maybe a silly question, but why does any course need rating for women?  Surely the simple answer is that its one rating for everyone and your handicap levels the field?  Sorry i know its a bit off topic...


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## wjemather (Apr 28, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Maybe a silly question, but why does any course need rating for women?  Surely the simple answer is that its one rating for everyone and your handicap levels the field?  Sorry i know its a bit off topic...
		
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I can't think of a reason why a single rating would not work for everyone. However, one of the major factors in course rating is distance and women simply don't hit the ball as far, so there would be significant consequences to not having different ratings; e.g. extremely few scratch women (current index would need to be about +6), handicaps well over 54 to compensate, etc.


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## Bdill93 (Apr 28, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Maybe a silly question, but why does any course need rating for women?  Surely the simple answer is that its one rating for everyone and your handicap levels the field?  Sorry i know its a bit off topic...
		
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I think it just negates the difference in distances!

If the ladies are forced to play off the whites at my place, theyre given an additional number of strokes on top of their Playing Handicap.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I think the presence of a particular female member would likely have provided incentive for that!
		
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Indeed.  She practices off the Whites - when I played 18 with her a few weeks back we played off these tees - she knocked it round in 4 under 

Off the Whites we have carries from some tees that many ladies would really struggle with - indeed carries that many gents struggle with and why many of our Seniors play off the Yellows, and why the main midweek rollup is played off Yellows (as many Seniors play in it)


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 28, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Maybe a silly question, but why does any course need rating for women?  Surely the simple answer is that its one rating for everyone and your handicap levels the field?  Sorry i know its a bit off topic...
		
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I agree I don't think it's a silly question, Courses are rated based on a scratch golfer and 'Bogey' golfer, If Mens and Ladies handicaps were based on the same standard, then a Player who goes round in scratch would hit about the same distance regardless of gender and the same for a 18 handicapper, I can't see how a female golfer could go round in the same scores of 90 or under as a male without hitting roughly the same distances. The only difference is maybe is max of say 60 handicap for female, but would a 54+ handicapper really play of the Whites or Yellows when the Reds would be nearer their ability


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## sweaty sock (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I agree I don't think it's a silly question, Courses are rated based on a scratch golfer and 'Bogey' golfer, If Mens and Ladies handicaps were based on the same standard, then a Player who goes round in scratch would hit about the same distance regardless of gender and the same for a 18 handicapper, I can't see how a female golfer could go round in the same scores of 90 or under as a male without hitting roughly the same distances. The only difference is maybe is max of say 60 handicap for female, but would a 54+ handicapper really play of the Whites or Yellows when the Reds would be nearer their ability
		
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So in effect a 10 second change to how womens handicaps are calculated and every course in the world is rated?  Well maybe not actually, as i dont think our reds are rated for the men!


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## Foxholer (Apr 28, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			So in effect a 10 second change to how womens handicaps are calculated and every course in the world is rated?  Well maybe not actually, as i dont think our reds are rated for the men!
		
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In effect, that is what rating (at least some of the) Mens tees for Ladies does - while accepting the situation that most Ladies are 'happy' playing from their own set of tees. The reluctance of (some/many) Senior men to play from Reds simply reflects how egos can get in the way of logic.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 28, 2022)

Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!


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## Backache (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I agree I don't think it's a silly question, Courses are rated based on a scratch golfer and 'Bogey' golfer, If Mens and Ladies handicaps were based on the same standard, then a Player who goes round in scratch would hit about the same distance regardless of gender and the same for a 18 handicapper, I can't see how a female golfer could go round in the same scores of 90 or under as a male without hitting roughly the same distances. The only difference is maybe is max of say 60 handicap for female, but would a 54+ handicapper really play of the Whites or Yellows when the Reds would be nearer their ability
		
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Men and women scratch golfers do not hit it the same distance.
Both par and the old standard scratch score have always been different.
This is almost certainly reasonable, If you were to take the top 1% of golfers for both sexes and at amateur level that is roughly what is scratch the women would on average hit it shorter, and that is true at each centile.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 28, 2022)

Backache said:



*Men and women scratch golfers do not hit it the same distance.*
Both par and the old standard scratch score have always been different.
This is almost certainly reasonable, If you were to take the top 1% of golfers for both sexes and at amateur level that is roughly what is scratch the women would on average hit it shorter, and that is true at each centile.
		
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That's because a Women scratch golfer is about a 5 or 6 handicap


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## patricks148 (Apr 29, 2022)

We are Scotland but all but our black tees are rated for women. So if SG are doing it I can't see EG can't?


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## yandabrown (Apr 29, 2022)

When you rate the longer courses for women, have you then sunsequently had to adjust the Par for the holes that move from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 based on the recommendations? Does that then lead to changes to the Stroke Indexes (both if you already have 2)? Does this then further lead to such a complicated score card that you end up with one for Ladies and one for Gentlemen?
Edit, This also applies to the men being rated for the forward tees where there is a reduction in Par and some par fives (all actually) become par 4s.


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## rulefan (Apr 29, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			When you rate the longer courses for women, have you then sunsequently had to adjust the Par for the holes that move from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 based on the recommendations? Does that then lead to changes to the Stroke Indexes (both if you already have 2)? Does this then further lead to such a complicated score card that you end up with one for Ladies and one for Gentlemen?
Edit, This also applies to the men being rated for the forward tees where there is a reduction in Par and some par fives (all actually) become par 4s.
		
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Why does it matter. Par is simply an arbitrary number. All par #s overlap anyway.


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## yandabrown (Apr 29, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Why does it matter. Par is simply an arbitrary number. All par #s overlap anyway.
		
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For handicapping it matters when people only play 9 holes (or miss any holes for that matter) and also net double bogey changes. Whilst there is overlap (and the lengths are only reccommendations), the changes on some holes do take them out of one band and into another (30 yards less than the lowest end of the range in some cases). This will take them from one triad to another in the SI allocation process which looks at the difficulty of holes relative to par.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 12, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!
		
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Well we have our new rating and no visit made. They are now live on the EG system but we are still working through the implications for competitions / cards / handicap tables before putting them on Club V1.

Interestingly (but not surprisingly they have changed the par for women playing off yellows (6165 yds) +1 shot and -3 shots for men playing off red.

This matters not a jot for handicap purposes but is a pain for scorecard design / admin if we choose to try to integrate them.


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## clubchamp98 (May 12, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!
		
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Guy told me yesterday our course had not been visited for rating.
So how do they work it out.
Played a local course last week with a slope of 129 the same as ours.
It was so much easier than my course flat as a fluke with no water at all.
Most feel our is way to low for the difficulty.
He also said over half the courses in the country have not had a visit to rate them as there is a shortage of rating staff. Is this true anyone know.?


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## wjemather (May 12, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Guy told me yesterday our course had not been visited for rating.
So how do they work it out.
Played a local course last week with a slope of 129 the same as ours.
It was so much easier than my course flat as a fluke with no water at all.
Most feel our is way to low for the difficulty.
He also said over half the courses in the country have not had a visit to rate them as there is a shortage of rating staff. Is this true anyone know.?
		
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Firstly, Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a bogey (~20 handicap) golfer versus a scratch golfer.

All courses will have been visited for rating. However, some additional rating (such as rating yellow for women and red for men) has been done recently without visits, pending a visit for full rating within a few years. Most counties completed a full cycle of ratings in a short period in the run up to WHS as so did not have any scheduled for a few years and may have felt it unnecessary to maintain a full rating team.


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## rulefan (May 12, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Interestingly (but not surprisingly they have changed the par for women playing off yellows (6165 yds) +1 shot and -3 shots for men playing off red.
		
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Setting par is not part of the normal rating process. It is a club's function. Do you mean Par or Course Rating?
How many holes have they changed? Can you give a couple of examples?


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## wjemather (May 12, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Setting par is not part of the normal rating process. It is a club's function. Do you mean Par or Course Rating?
How many holes have they changed? Can you give a couple of examples?
		
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When a new set of tees is rated, or an existing set is rated for a different gender (as I understand, this is the scenario Mike describing), if not given explicit instruction, some raters will assign pars based on yardages rather than copying them from the closest existing rated set of tees for that gender (or even asking the club). We had this with our winter tees for women, but they were quickly adjusted on request.


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## clubchamp98 (May 12, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Firstly, Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a bogey (~20 handicap) golfer versus a scratch golfer.

All courses will have been visited for rating. However, some additional rating (such as rating yellow for women and red for men) has been done recently without visits, pending a visit for full rating within a few years. Most counties completed a full cycle of ratings in a short period in the run up to WHS as so did not have any scheduled for a few years and may have felt it unnecessary to maintain a full rating team.
		
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He quite clearly told us the course had not been visited by raters 
I will ask him at the weekend.


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## rulefan (May 13, 2022)

wjemather said:



			When a new set of tees is rated, or an existing set is rated for a different gender (as I understand, this is the scenario Mike describing), if not given explicit instruction, some raters will assign pars based on yardages rather than copying them from the closest existing rated set of tees for that gender (or even asking the club). We had this with our winter tees for women, but they were quickly adjusted on request.
		
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To the best of my knowledge there is no provision in the rating procedure for setting or recommending pars. At least there wasn't when I was the county rating manager. I can't seen any reference to par in my copy of the rating manual.


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## rulefan (May 13, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			He quite clearly told us the course had not been visited by raters
I will ask him at the weekend.
		
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In some counties not all courses have had a full formal rating yet but have been given a temporary rating based primarily on length.


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## wjemather (May 13, 2022)

rulefan said:



			To the best of my knowledge there is no provision in the rating procedure for setting or recommending pars. At least there wasn't when I was the county rating manager. I can't seen any reference to par in my copy of the rating manual.
		
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I can't say why they are doing it rather than consulting the club (who should have provided the information in advance), but it's clearly happening in more than one county.


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## rulefan (May 13, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I can't say why they are doing it rather than consulting the club (who should have provided the information in advance), but it's clearly happening in more than one county.
		
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Where (ie on what paperwork) and how do they communicate this change of par to the club?


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## wjemather (May 13, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Where (ie on what paperwork) and how do they communicate this change of par to the club?
		
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I don't seem to have a copy but if I remember correctly, our club manager was notified of the new ratings by email, which included the par for the course, which we then queried and requested changing.


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## rulefan (May 13, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I don't seem to have a copy but if I remember correctly, our club manager was notified of the new ratings by email, which included the par for the course, which we then queried and requested changing.
		
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Was that the course par or hole pars?


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## wjemather (May 13, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Was that the course par or hole pars?
		
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Sorry, I don't recall. Possibly the course par which led to discovery of the hole pars when it was 3 strokes lower than the existing tee set.


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## rulefan (May 14, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Sorry, I don't recall. Possibly the course par which led to discovery of the hole pars when it was 3 strokes lower than the existing tee set.
		
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I have spoken to our county executive member responsible for rating and he says there has been no correspondence or direction from EG on the matter. If the team leader notices a significant disparity between the club's par for a hole and WHS they may mention it to the club but our county has not given any instructions. In fact when I was responsible I don't actually remember any team leader noting the hole par. Certainly no one ever mentioned an issue to me.


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## tobybarker (May 20, 2022)

wjemather said:



			This isn't true since golfers only play to handicap (or better) about 1/5 of the time, on average. Their expected scores are at least a stroke or two higher than this.
		
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so if someone keeps scoring net par (plus or minus 1) then their HCP is too high, would you say? we have a couple of guys who win everything but their numbers never seem to move even though they submit cards regularly


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## tobybarker (May 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I think it just negates the difference in distances!

If the ladies are forced to play off the whites at my place, theyre given an additional number of strokes on top of their Playing Handicap.
		
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there are several holes here that the ladies wouldn't even get it as far as the ladies' tee from the whites, so extra shots wouldn't help.


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## rulefan (May 20, 2022)

rulefan said:



			I have spoken to our county executive member responsible for rating and he says there has been no correspondence or direction from EG on the matter. If the team leader notices a significant disparity between the club's par for a hole and WHS they may mention it to the club but our county has not given any instructions. In fact when I was responsible I don't actually remember any team leader noting the hole par. Certainly no one ever mentioned an issue to me.
		
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I have had it confirmed by EG that the county rating teams are not authorised to alter hole pars but may (not must) point out variances with the WHS recommendations.


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## wjemather (May 20, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			so if someone keeps scoring net par (plus or minus 1) then their HCP is too high, would you say? we have a couple of guys who win everything but their numbers never seem to move even though they submit cards regularly
		
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Handicaps are calculated relative to the Course Rating, adjusted for Slope.

In GB&I, par is pretty much only relevant for calculating 9-hole Course Handicaps, mixed tee adjustments (in Stableford), and nett double-bogey/par/par+1.


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## wjemather (May 20, 2022)

rulefan said:



			I have had it confirmed by EG that the county rating teams are not authorised to alter hole pars but may (not must) point out variances with the WHS recommendations.
		
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I'd say that technically the teams in question weren't altering pars, but assigning pars to a new set of tees. No doubt if the ratings had been done during a visit, rather than remotely, the clubs would have been consulted/advised.


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## tobybarker (May 20, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Handicaps are calculated relative to the Course Rating, adjusted for Slope.

In GB&I, par is pretty much only relevant for calculating 9-hole Course Handicaps, mixed tee adjustments (in Stableford), and nett double-bogey/par/par+1.
		
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Thanks. What I guess I was getting at is that people regularly playing to their handicap (net par, 36 points etc) tend to win stuff, because few of us do (your HCP is, after all, slightly aspirational). My question would be should they be adjusted?! Probably not but it's a point that's been raised.....


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## wjemather (May 20, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			Thanks. What I guess I was getting at is that people regularly playing to their handicap (net par, 36 points etc) tend to win stuff, because few of us do (your HCP is, after all, slightly aspirational). My question would be should they be adjusted?! Probably not but it's a point that's been raised.....
		
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No, they shouldn't be adjusted unless recommended during a review.

Playing to handicap is only (NDB adjusted) nett par or 36 points when the difference between Course Rating and par is zero (after rounding). If CR is 3 under par, playing to handicap is 39 points; if it's 3 over par, PtH is 33 points. The same was true under the previous system, with scores assessed relative to SSS/CSS.

Edit: to clarify, these PtH scores are with respect to Course Handicap, not Playing Handicap.


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