# Shaft experts and gear heads



## turkish (Apr 11, 2017)

So with there nowhere in Scotland in the mould of Tour X or Golf Principles I am taking it on myself to experiment with different shafts bought 2nd hand from ebay/facebook etc alongside my course of lessons with a pro on GC2.

Disclaimer; I am very much learning so if anything I say is a load of tosh feel free to enlighten me as there is an overwhelming plethora of variables in the multitude of shafts out there.

I've a few questions for all you shaft experts out there and what direction I should be going if anybody has any advice. As I said I'm new to all this but find it really interesting so if it interests you also read on!!! If not trolls beat it 

This is likely to be a costly endeavour so I am looking at 2nd hand market and not wanting to pay more than Â£60 a shaft so things like the new project x hzrdus, or expensive oban shafts I can't consider... anything that doesn't work for me will be getting quickly moved on hopefully at no/little loss.

about me:
Handicap 16.5
AOA -1ish (still a work in progress with pro but big improvement from the 5-6 I was before)
in to out swing path
SS- can vary between 96-101 mph 
Spin- can vary but usually between 2200-3000 then goes northwards on my poor hits. When I started along with AoA being massivly down my spin was as high as 5 and 6k.
my poor shot: Heel strike cuts or pushes right with an open face.
distances: Not got the data yet as just started testing but best shaft yesterday from memory was 240 carry 262 total average which is up by about 40 yards when I started this.
Height: 5 foot 7", fairly fit.
Driver Head: Titleist 915 D2 9.5 degree set to 8.75 degree and 1.5 upright (D2 setting)

Hopefully my journey will help other people and give them an insight- so far I've noticed not only how big a difference it can make to the numbers but also the overall general feel from the standard shafts you get with a driver.

Shaft history so far: had stock Diamana blue 60 shaft which I had cut an inch from the butt- this was when I was hitting massively down and spinning massively. 

After testing several have now changed to the low launch Aldila Rogue Max 65s. I then yesterday tested Fujikura Fuel 60S(Low Launch, Low torque) and Proforce UST V2 (Mid Launch, Low torque)

Findings: I found the Proforce V2 I liked the stiff board feeling from the low torque as I found it easier to square the face from the aldila rogue max shaft I was using which has been an issue for me, but the Fujikura Fuel had very similar characteristics yet felt dead in my hand and was spraying the ball about a bit (although it did give my highest distance of 275 total) so is it just due to the different launch characteristics? (also I've found out there is no standardised number on things like flex and torque so it really could be trial and error). It was one test though so going to give Fujikura another chance.

Questions: 
1) How many shots would you say a good sample size? How many tests of the same shaft should I do in case I just wasn't swinging it well that day? I'm thinking if I know its definitely not the right one 1 should be enough?
2) Should I delete really poor shots from my averages? And maybe count how many poor shots there are- as if there's loads then the odd good one shouldn't matter.
3) What parameters should I be looking at: Launch, side and backspin, face angle, Ball Speed, dispersion, carry & total distances? Anything else you consider really important.
4) Anything else I should be asking pro for advice?
5) I can change the settings on my 915 to 16 different settings, I also have a weight kit from 4g up to 17g so should I pick one setting and stay with it or is this something I should also toy around with- i'm worried I might discount a shaft that would maybe be good in a different setting but then too many variables will be hard to test? Thoughts?
6)From what I've said is there a particular direction you think I should be going with regards to toque, shaft weight, length etc,
7) what brands and types should I be considering to trial given what I can afford and what i've said so far? Low spin I am sure I should be going for but not sure on what weight of shaft, what length, what torque etc but I am guessing from my trials this will become clearer?

Anyway hoping to put my 1st set of data up tomorrow for the 3 shafts I currently have, if not will be Friday. 

Shafts I have or on the way:
Aldila Rogue Max 65s Low Launch
Fujikura Fuel 60S
UST V2 60S
Aldila Rogue Silver 60S (on the way)
Aldila RIP red eyes 60S 2.9 (on the way)

What I'm hoping to get is a shaft that suits me to go along with the lessons I am having and will continue; I realise this type of thing is highly individual and the right shaft for me might not be right for then next guy.


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## patricks148 (Apr 11, 2017)

what about the guy at Craigmillar Park, Scott Gourlay?

 only ever heard good things about him. a few on here have had clubs from him.

Has a head only deal for clubs, which is unusual. any club with any shaft.


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## turkish (Apr 11, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			what about the guy at Craigmillar Park, Scott Gourlay?

 only ever heard good things about him. a few on here have had clubs from him.

Has a head only deal for clubs, which is unusual. any club with any shaft.
		
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Hi Patrick I contacted him online to ask about iron fitting and got no reply so ended up going elsewhere so not sure what the story is there. I'm not sure if he has a multitude of shafts like golf principles as an example. Besides this is fun doing it myself (albeit probably more costly)


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## patricks148 (Apr 11, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2nRyl5y46I

have a look at this pretty interesting.


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## turkish (Apr 11, 2017)

That does look amazing... maybe he didn't get back to me because I told him my budget was Â£750 for the irons lol


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## patricks148 (Apr 11, 2017)

turkish said:



			That does look amazing... maybe he didn't get back to me because I told him my budget was Â£750 for the irons lol
		
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Maybe, Thats off the shelf price for a lot of clubs nowdays.

I'm sure Tommo went to him, maybe PM Him. There was another guy on here a few years ago that was member at CMP and and had some very fancy clubs. Coooper i think they were Â£5K if memory serves me right. 

he got the rip taken out of him a fair bit as i remember, i can't think of his name though


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## moogie (Apr 11, 2017)

turkish said:



			That does look amazing... maybe he didn't get back to me because I told him my budget was Â£750 for the irons lol
		
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I'm surprised to hear he didn't reply to you straight away
He's very good

I've been there twice now
To purchase irons
Both times under the price you quote

Prices aren't crazy considering the service and knowledge he has
Most are similar to those if you'd bought off the shelf
But this way,  you get fitted properly

Highly recommend

Try contacting again
Or
Try the old Fashioned way........telephone


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## karlcole (Apr 11, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			Maybe, Thats off the shelf price for a lot of clubs nowdays.

I'm sure Tommo went to him, maybe PM Him. There was another guy on here a few years ago that was member at CMP and and had some very fancy clubs. Coooper i think they were Â£5K if memory serves me right. 

he got the rip taken out of him a fair bit as i remember, i can't think of his name though

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Patrick your inbox is full. sorry to hijack this thread but im trying to contact you about the driver


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## DCB (Apr 11, 2017)

Scott Gourlay certainly the place to go to in Edinburgh. There is also a guy in North Berwick who is supposed to be good, fitforpurposegolf or something like that.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 11, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			Maybe, Thats off the shelf price for a lot of clubs nowdays.

I'm sure Tommo went to him, maybe PM Him. There was another guy on here a few years ago that was member at CMP and and had some very fancy clubs. Coooper i think they were Â£5K if memory serves me right. 

he got the rip taken out of him a fair bit as i remember, i can't think of his name though

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You'd be thinking of Munro007. Had Miuras before the Coopers. Did get ripped on here you are right. Some fair, some unfair.


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## patricks148 (Apr 12, 2017)

GreiginFife said:



			You'd be thinking of Munro007. Had Miuras before the Coopers. Did get ripped on here you are right. Some fair, some unfair.
		
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thats the boy

was there not some sort of Shenanigans over a meet at his club and green fee/ Prizes?


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## turkish (Apr 12, 2017)

Oi- get your own thread 

Anyway done my 1st test today and went ok but didn't feel I was swinging my best and the results maybe largely redundant as there was only a small tee there(think yellow/white castle tee height) so probably wasn't getting best launch conditions but gives me a good starting point.

tested 3 shafts 10 shots on each- longest was Aldila Rogue Max Low by a fair bit but tightest dispersion was the Proforce V2. Longest shot was Rogue max: 243 carry 268 total but was 24 yards offline. The lower torque shafts felt easier to close the face so I am looking forward testing the Rogue Silver and RIP Phenom which are supposed to fall between the rogue max and V2 so should be slightly less whippy than the rogue max.

One thing I am aware of is my own consistency isn't anywhere near good enough to where it needs to be but with my lessons I know it will get better as I am seeing good results since I started them.


As I said though these results might not really mean that much as will need to test them again on a proper tee height. I also got better results with the V2 than the rogue max on Monday so definitely need to test them side by side again. The Fujikura Fuel 60 is not looking promising but again will give another shot on higher tee height when I get the chance.

should have 3 new shafts to test on Friday which is exciting: RIP red eyes, RIP Phenom and Aldila Rogue silver... will see how they get on. I think i'll need to test every shaft a minimum of twice given how inconsistent I can be from one day to the next.


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## Val (Apr 12, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			thats the boy

was there not some sort of Shenanigans over a meet at his club and green fee/ Prizes?
		
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:rofl: thats the one, IIRC he took a fiver a head for a "sweep" that wasn't paid out and the excuse I believe was it was to cover the cost of the prizes which he originally said was part of the fee. 

Nice enough fella in the flesh to be fair.


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## DRW (Apr 13, 2017)

How come all have smash factors of 1.45 ?

Amazing differences that the shaft could have that much effect, keep the updates coming, very interesting to see back to back.


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## turkish (Apr 13, 2017)

Hi Darren. I've just checked the pics of the screen and you're absolutely right which is strange... 30 shots and every one 1.45. 

It's gc2 without hmt would this have an effect? Does seem weird as I know for a fact some were not exactly out the middle and others were good.

Also one stat I never included was Azimuth which is my understanding is face to path?!? the 2 stiffer torque shafts were given negative readings and the rogue max was 1 degree open so it kind of backs up my thoughts that I'm able to square up the face easier on lower torque shafts.  It also backs up that I can tend to push the Aldila rogue max slightly at times.

I'm due to receive Aldila Rogue silver today with the torque of 3.4 falling in between the V2 (3.0) and the Rogue Max (3.7) so interested to see how that goes.  Then Friday got Red Eyes with 2.9 torque, and phenom with 3.2 torque (but heavier at 73g so might use lighter headweight)

I'd love to try the Oban Kiyoshi white 55S and 65S shafts which have low torque but really light (and maybe put heavier headweight) but they cost a small fortune.


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			How come all have smash factors of 1.45 ?

Amazing differences that the shaft could have that much effect, keep the updates coming, very interesting to see back to back.
		
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where are you seeing a SF reading, i can only see ball speed?


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## turkish (Apr 13, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			where are you seeing a SF reading, i can only see ball speed?
		
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He's just divided ball speed by club speed which = SF.


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## Mcleodc2000 (Apr 13, 2017)

GC2 only measures ball speed, then works to an assumed smash factor of 1.45 (which could be being generous given the pros are about 1.48 average) to calculate the clubhead speed. Without HMT, it doesn't track clubhead speed (just ball speed/1.45 = clubhead speed)


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## turkish (Apr 13, 2017)

Mcleodc2000 said:



			GC2 only measures ball speed, then works to an assumed smash factor of 1.45 (which could be being generous given the pros are about 1.48 average) to calculate the clubhead speed. Without HMT, it doesn't track clubhead speed (just ball speed/1.45 = clubhead speed)
		
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Cool yeah I'd agree generous as some definitely were not good hits.... I take it the distance would still be fairly accurate given all of the other information it records: back and side spin, launch etc?


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## Region3 (Apr 13, 2017)

It's the HMT part of the LM that measures what the club is doing, all GC2 does is measure the ball.

So if no HMT was present, GC2 'assumes' a smash factor of 1.45 in order to give a club speed, because the only speed it actually measures is the ball.

_Edit: beaten to it_ 


From what I know, Azimuth is the ball's starting direction relative to target, so 0 is at target, -ve left and +ve right. Obviously that figure is only any use if you're aiming where GC2 thinks you're aiming.


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## Mcleodc2000 (Apr 13, 2017)

turkish said:



			Cool yeah I'd agree generous as some definitely were not good hits.... I take it the distance would still be fairly accurate given all of the other information it records: back and side spin, launch etc?
		
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Yeah- essentially it is recordid what happens with the ball and ignoring the club- therfore the ball data will be correct, but the club data could be skewed. If you imagine you're getting ball speeds of 145mph, that'd give you a clubhead speed of 100mph on the nose (145/1.45), but if your smash factor was to drop to, say, 1.4, then your true clubhead speed for that ball speed would be 103.6 (145/1.4). 

Clubhead speed is a funny thing, as different systems measure it in different ways (it also varies depending on where on the club the measurement is taken from). At the end of the day, the ball data is what really matters, so don't worry too much about clubhead speed!


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## turkish (Apr 13, 2017)

Region3 said:



			It's the HMT part of the LM that measures what the club is doing, all GC2 does is measure the ball.

So if no HMT was present, GC2 'assumes' a smash factor of 1.45 in order to give a club speed, because the only speed it actually measures is the ball.

_Edit: beaten to it_ 


From what I know, Azimuth is the ball's starting direction relative to target, so 0 is at target, -ve left and +ve right. Obviously that figure is only any use if you're aiming where GC2 thinks you're aiming.
		
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That makes sense as the 95 Clubhead speed is a little bit below where I have been on trackman recently- usually about 100-102 but ball speed would come off less with a crappy SF eh?

So if Azimuth is direction then negative means starting left of assumed target and positive starting right. They are within a degree either side of 0 so I don't think it's something I will get too bogged down with at the moment.

one problem you've touched on of GC2 is if it's not exactly aligned the target can be off... The new GCquad comes with a reflective alignment stick to combat this I believe.


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## Region3 (Apr 13, 2017)

turkish said:



			That makes sense as the 95 Clubhead speed is a little bit below where I have been on trackman recently- usually about 100-102 but ball speed would come off less with a crappy SF eh?
		
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Yes, great ball contact (assuming a square clubface) might over-read club speed and bad contact will under-read it.




turkish said:



			one problem you've touched on of GC2 is if it's not exactly aligned the target can be off... The new GCquad comes with a reflective alignment stick to combat this I believe.
		
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I thought the GC2 had something you could hold an alignment stick in to set the target line. I might have made that up in my head from reading something else though.


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## turkish (Apr 14, 2017)

MyHermes not coming until Tuesday now with the Phenom and RIP so will need to wait until then :angry:... got the Aldila Rogue silver in though and due to play today and tomorrow so not sure whether to test that or V2 for an on course spin.


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## Mcleodc2000 (Apr 14, 2017)

turkish said:



			MyHermes not coming until Tuesday now with the Phenom and RIP so will need to wait until then :angry:... got the Aldila Rogue silver in though and due to play today and tomorrow so not sure whether to test that or V2 for an on course spin.
		
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Sensible thing would probably be to use the V2 since you seemed to get reasonable results with it, and are somewhat familiarised with it. In my opinion though, the rogue silver is a cracking shaft!


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## turkish (Apr 18, 2017)

Only got to play once at the weekend and used rogue silver for 9 holes and v2 for 9 holes. Again in terms of distance the whippier feeling rogue silver seemed to go further but also felt less controllable. I actually wasn't swinging all that great on the day so can't read into it too much.

Also got aldila RIP and phenom delivered today... didn't get the chance to get on a LM so went to our practice area for half an hour and both felt great so can't wait to see the numbers. 

Bad hits were still heel strikes so that's all me rather than shaft but I may start doing stats on my ball striking with each at some point too in addition to the lessons.

A good video I watched recently was James pickard on buzzas channel talking about project x hzrdus shafts and what he says is that in terms of numbers you might not find a huge difference but the biggest difference is feel and I'm kinda recognising that though there's no doubt if you go from one extreme to another the spin numbers etc probably will be pretty big (I think). 

One things for certain once I have the best feeling shafts I'm gonna keep testing as don't want to knee jerk sell anything while I'm also having lessons and trying to change my swing.

Right now I'll hazard a guess tho the aldila rogue silver, max and fujikura won't be in the bag come mid season


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## turkish (Apr 20, 2017)

Tested 3 new shafts on GC2 yesterday and to be honest was totally underwhelmed but if I am being brutally honest it's nothing to do with the shafts it's my swing- still too close to heel strikes which I'm getting the feeling is going to be a long draw out process of lessons before I become more consistent- Got a lesson tomorrow so going to ask for pro's expert advice.

One thing I would say about my testing is I think I need to notch down the amount of swings I am doing in the 30 minute booking as by the end of it I think I've lost power from swinging hard so much. Maybe going to change to 6 swings with a breather and proper PSR in between each swing then pick best 3 from that.

From the results:

started with Phenom and the contact and swing felt great which I thought it would after swinging it lovely on Wednesday night outdoors but the numbers were not great- the spin was higher than the others at 3411 over 10 shots and 2885 over 5 best. Not sure if to do with much heavier shaft than the others at 73g or it being a mid launch profile but a strange one as it still felt great off the face. Carry average 216y (235total) over 10 shots and 227y (247t) over 5 best.

second test shaft was Aldila Rogue silver which when I am swinging at a good tempo feels great but when I am not feels hard to control... a bit like the rogue Max it feels powerful when loaded correctly and in terms of total distance on a great hit it's between these 2- just a control issue for me though I'd lean towards this than the Max. spin numbers not too bad at 2989 over 10 then 2679 over 5 best. probably a notch lower launch than I'd want at 12.2 degrees(best 5) and peak height of 28 yard. Could put my loft up to 9.5 to see what happens but would also need to see what happens to spin when I do that. One thing about the low launch though is my track can be very windy so could be desirable flight in those conditions.

Last test was RIP red eyes and was the most disappointing as felt great on Wednesday night yet didn't feel great on LM but by this point felt exhausted so next time I test I am going to start with. ball speed was coming out really low compared to all the others which being the lightest shaft at 63g I was most gutted at but was either due to poor SF or tiredness of which I'm not sure. It also launched well higher than the others which was surprising given the profile is low launch.

I did do a comparison test with the V2 at the end and my ball speed had dropped which suggests I wasn't swinging optimally.

Lesson tomorrow then will look to retest all shafts again next week and see where I am and also good to see if results comparable. Definitely going to stick to 2 shafts per test though.


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## turkish (Apr 25, 2017)

So managed to get my hands on a project X Hzrdus black shaft (after saying I wasn't gonna spend big on newer shafts) and on 1st few hits on range I was a bit underwhelmed then got onto the GC2 today and the numbers showed why it's a good shaft... I retested against the V2 which is my favourite at the moment and although there wasn't a ton of difference between the 2 I'm getting a bit of a marginal gain on this 1st test... also retested Aldila RIP Red eyes and think I am ready to let go so if anyone is interested can put on FS section soon.


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## turkish (Apr 27, 2017)

Can anyone recommend any sub 60g shafts with low torque to try? Either stiff or x stiff profile?


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## patricks148 (Apr 28, 2017)

turkish said:



			Can anyone recommend any sub 60g shafts with low torque to try? Either stiff or x stiff profile?
		
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I use a matrix white tie 5x3 i think its called, high launch low spin. 58g

a mate has a recoil something or other thats 50 and another has a hazardous 55/50g. 

those might be worth a try


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