# Mesut Ozil



## davemc1 (Aug 31, 2014)

Bearing in mind and in the interest of fairness, I'm sure the guy has qualities. His list of employers and more importantly, trophies is very impressive.

however, the man has to be the most overrated footballer I've ever come across. King of the three 3yd straight/backward pass. The man is the biggest crab. He's crap, pure crap and nothing but crap.

wow that feels better 



Hope this isn't seen as an anti arsenal thing, feel free to post your footballer who is seen as great but, just isn't


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

For me it always used to be Beckham - he could cross and hit a dead ball and was a solid player but was way overrated 

Marcelo at Madrid 

I think Ibrahimovic is a flat track bully who appears to constantly disappear when it comes to the big games 

But think you have pretty much sorted with your first post and Ozil


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me it always used to be Beckham - he could cross and hit a dead ball and was a solid player but was way overrated 

Marcelo at Madrid 

I think Ibrahimovic is a flat track bully who appears to constantly disappear when it comes to the big games 

But think you have pretty much sorted with your first post and Ozil
		
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Having been of exactly that same opinion about Beckham, I think he ended up as a fairly inspirational Captain- if fairly unsubtlely about it! So I'm prepared to cut him a bit of slack for that.

Rio Ferdinand has been the most over-rated imo! Certainly in the last few years!

I have a 'natural' hatred of 'cheats' so all the Divers (and Biters) get Black Marks from me - but so do the Grabbers/Tuggers/Holders in Defence - and the Pushing/Leaning Attackers! Skrtel is the 'worst' for me - not over-rated, but I wish he'd get Penalties against him for his constant cheating as he's otherwise a really good Defender!


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## Dodger (Aug 31, 2014)

Virgil van Dijk for us at the moment.....massively overrated. 

In English football I give you Gerrard,Walcott,Wellbeck,Cleverly,Carroll,Ozil,Krul....it would be a lengthy list.


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## jp5 (Aug 31, 2014)

Thank Wenger for that.

Play a world class player out of his position and what do you get?

Dennis Bergkamp wouldn't have been much good on the wing.


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## fundy (Aug 31, 2014)

Ozil a far far better player than the one you are seeing at Arsenal sadly. Played out of position and with no one running off him, they are hardly playing to his strengths. Doesnt help that he looks highly disinterested most of the time too


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## Dodger (Aug 31, 2014)

I hope he continues to play pish next Sunday in Dortmund.


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## CMAC (Aug 31, 2014)

God Bless David 'bend it like' Beckham.

The list of poor players will be of stupid length


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

It's all relative at the end of the day - none of them are what you would call "poor" footballers - they wouldn't be professional footballers playing at the level they do 

Ozil for example was outstanding for a Germany before he moved to Arsenal 

Ibrahimovic has won titles with every club he has been at 

Beckham has a trophy list longer that most 

Gerrard have won ever club trophy bar one - including inspiring his team during two of the best cup finals seen in football

Ferdinand was at one stage the best CB in the game 

It will always depend on what is being used as the barometer to just against


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

Ozil is a top player and I think the OP is way off the mark. Someone has to do the simple stuff and he does it well and is a fulcrum for the Arsenal pass and move style. It's no different to the stuff the likes of Barry has done for his club and England for so long


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

davemc1 said:



			Bearing in mind and in the interest of fairness, I'm sure the guy has qualities. His list of employers and more importantly, trophies is very impressive.

however, the man has to be the most overrated footballer I've ever come across. King of the three 3yd straight/backward pass. The man is the biggest crab. He's crap, pure crap and nothing but crap.

wow that feels better 



Hope this isn't seen as an anti arsenal thing, feel free to post your footballer who is seen as great but, just isn't
		
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Darren Anderton. Whilst he wasn't terrible and never let anyone down. How he justified an England career is beyond me. 

I wont on go into let downs at Saints as I don't have enough time.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 31, 2014)

Jack Wilshere as got to be one of the most over rated players currently in the game. 
As for Beckham,quality player & great professional. People just like to dislike him for some reason.


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## groundskeeperwilly (Aug 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ozil is a top player and I think the OP is way off the mark. Someone has to do the simple stuff and he does it well and is a fulcrum for the Arsenal pass and move style. It's no different to the stuff the likes of Barry has done for his club and England for so long
		
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I think it might be the only time Barry and Ozil are described as similar!

A few others IMO: Mario Ballotelli, Nani, Anderson, Andy Carroll, Andrei Schevchenko, Fernando Torres at Chelsea, Sergei Rebrov, Kleberson, Eric Djemba Djemba, Andrei Arshaven...


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## sawtooth (Aug 31, 2014)

I hope with Ozil that its just a phase he is going though at Arsenal, he has looked very average for us for a while now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			I hope with Ozil that its just a phase he is going though at Arsenal, he has looked very average for us for a while now.
		
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Do you think he's carrying a knock but with Wenger's options pretty limited he's trying to play on or id there more to it


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ozil is a top player and I think the OP is way off the mark. Someone has to do the simple stuff and he does it well and is a fulcrum for the Arsenal pass and move style. It's no different to the stuff the likes of Barry has done for his club and England for so long
		
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You don't spend Â£42mil on a player to do the simple stuff 

He is or was a far more creative player than that - everything went through him at Madrid and when with Germany he is the creative force put chance after chance on a plate - the reason why Ronaldo scored so many goals was because of Ozil floating around picking up the ball from the continuity players like Khedria - you don't spend Â£42mil on a player who you compare with Gareth Barry 

Either he isn't fit , isn't interested or being played all wrong - but certainly needs something to happen for him


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## richart (Aug 31, 2014)

davemc1 said:



			Bearing in mind and in the interest of fairness, I'm sure the guy has qualities. His list of employers and more importantly, trophies is very impressive.

however, the man has to be the most overrated footballer I've ever come across. King of the three 3yd straight/backward pass. The man is the biggest crab. He's crap, pure crap and nothing but crap.

wow that feels better 



Hope this isn't seen as an anti arsenal thing, feel free to post your footballer who is seen as great but, just isn't
		
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 I thought I was the only one that thought that. Has he ever broken sweat in a game ? A midfield player that doesn't tackle or track back relies on playing with some quality team mates. Perhaps why he does better for Germany than Club ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't spend Â£42mil on a player to do the simple stuff 

He is or was a far more creative player than that - everything went through him at Madrid and when with Germany he is the creative force put chance after chance on a plate - the reason why Ronaldo scored so many goals was because of Ozil floating around picking up the ball from the continuity players like Khedria - you don't spend Â£42mil on a player who you compare with Gareth Barry 

Either he isn't fit , isn't interested or being played all wrong - but certainly needs something to happen for him
		
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Oh look, another post disagreeing on my view. A lot goes through him at Arsenal (so same as his RM role). He is being played by Wenger in a different role to his time in Germany and that's what he wants Ozil to do. I'd suggest he feels there are better attacking options. I only compared him to Barry as both are doing the water carrying role and linking the ball from the back to the creative players. Ozil is miles ahead of Barry technically but if Wenger doesn't want to use him in a more creative role what can a player do


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## USER1999 (Aug 31, 2014)

He is a great player, who Wenger is not getting the best out of. He loves to buy a player, and play him out of his favourite position, and then run him into the ground. He just does. Arsenal have so many players who can play off the striker. Cazorla, Ozil, Rocky, Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox, etc. so to use them all, he puts them out wide. Daft. If you want a winger, buy one. Don't try to change a central midfielder to a winger, it doesn't work.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't spend Â£42mil on a player to do the simple stuff 

He is or was a far more creative player than that - everything went through him at Madrid and when with Germany he is the creative force put chance after chance on a plate - *the reason why Ronaldo scored so many goals* was because of Ozil floating around picking up the ball from the continuity players like Khedria - you don't spend Â£42mil on a player who you compare with Gareth Barry 

Either he isn't fit , isn't interested or being played all wrong - but certainly needs something to happen for him
		
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whilst I agree with the rest. Ronaldo has scored just as many since his departure. And will do whoever is in the team as he's that good.


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## USER1999 (Aug 31, 2014)

richart said:



			I thought I was the only one that thought that. Has he ever broken sweat in a game ? A midfield player that doesn't tackle or track back relies on playing with some quality team mates. Perhaps why he does better for Germany than Club ?
		
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I thought Ozil was fantastic in the World Cup final. He tracked back, worked hard, and really put in some effort. If Wenger doesn't get that level of performance, that's coaching, not the player.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Oh look, another post disagreeing on my view. A lot goes through him at Arsenal (so same as his RM role). He is being played by Wenger in a different role to his time in Germany and that's what he wants Ozil to do. I'd suggest he feels there are better attacking options. I only compared him to Barry as both are doing the water carrying role and linking the ball from the back to the creative players. Ozil is miles ahead of Barry technically but if Wenger doesn't want to use him in a more creative role what can a player do
		
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Ozil is the creative player - a Â£42mil pound creative player who is currently playing more in the wide areas on the peripheral - he isn't a water carrier in any stretch and he wasn't at Madrid nor at Germany and certainly don't see him doing much water carrier at Arsenal.


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## sawtooth (Aug 31, 2014)

Possibly a fitness or strength issue. He is simply not doing some of the things we know he can do. He doesn't get away from players like I have seen him do at RM, he gets brushed off the ball way too often, he is misplacing a lot of passes, not tracking back and tackling enough. I can forgive him for being off form but at least try to give 100%. He should take a look at Sanchez , that guy gives everything.

Want to see more return for Â£42M and if things don't improve this season then he will be on his way.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ozil is the creative player - a Â£42mil pound creative player who is currently playing more in the wide areas on the peripheral - he isn't a water carrier in any stretch and he wasn't at Madrid nor at Germany and certainly don't see him doing much water carrier at Arsenal.
		
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Whatever. You and I clearly won't agree so I'll leave it as you'll keep on going whatever I put down here. Others have come back and argued other points but you seem to be picking up on my *opinions* I don't want to turn a decent thread into a farce


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## richart (Aug 31, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Possibly a fitness or strength issue. He is simply not doing some of the things we know he can do. He doesn't get away from players like I have seen him do at RM, he gets brushed off the ball way too often, he is misplacing a lot of passes, not tracking back and tackling enough. I can forgive him for being off form but at least try to give 100%. He should take a look at Sanchez , that guy gives everything.

Want to see more return for Â£42M and if things don't improve this season then he will be on his way.
		
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 Good unbiased opinion there Sean.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Whatever. You and I clearly won't agree so I'll leave it as you'll keep on going whatever I put down here. Others have come back and argued other points but you seem to be picking up on my *opinions* I don't want to turn a decent thread into a farce
		
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Because the points they have put across are spot on regards Ozil current playing situation for Arsenal - yours appears to be completely wrong about the way he is playing. But will leave it there


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Possibly a fitness or strength issue. He is simply not doing some of the things we know he can do. He doesn't get away from players like I have seen him do at RM, he gets brushed off the ball way too often, he is misplacing a lot of passes, not tracking back and tackling enough. I can forgive him for being off form but at least try to give 100%. He should take a look at Sanchez , that guy gives everything.

Want to see more return for Â£42M and if things don't improve this season then he will be on his way.
		
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Yep think you have that spot on - Sanchez never stopped working today , constantly trying to get involved and trying to get things going


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because the points they have put across are spot on regards Ozil current playing situation for Arsenal - yours appears to be completely wrong about the way he is playing. But will leave it there
		
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Sorry. How can opinion be wrong. Didn't realise you had the definitive vote on what is and isn't correct


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2014)

Can't believe we're on page 2 of the thread and no-one had mentioned Rooney in the over rated category. My forum name will give you a clue to who I support so I have no allegiance to any of the top teams and I am happy to accept that there are a lot of people with more football experience than me (Alex Ferguson, Roy Hodgson etc) that rate him highly but I've never understood the fascination with him or why people think he's that good. Also always thought that Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard are over rated. If you put me in a midfield with Xabi Alonso/Michael Essien feeding Fernando Torres/Didier Drogba then I think they would make me look much better than I am.


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## richart (Aug 31, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			and Frank Lampard are over rated. If you put me in a midfield with Xabi Alonso/Michael Essien feeding Fernando Torres/Didier Drogba then I think they would make me look much better than I am.
		
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 But would you score 200 plus goals ?


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## Piece (Aug 31, 2014)

Seem to remember another left sided player who was panned for being rubbish in his first few months at Arsenal. Thierry Henry.

No real disrespect to Arsenal, but MO had gone from playing at Real with top world class players such CR7, Benzema, etc. to playing with wannabes in North London. Not to mention winning a World Cup in a brilliant team. 

Perhaps this helps reinforce a great golfing cliche: stick a decent golfer in a group of hackers and he will be dragged down to their level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2014)

richart said:



			But would you score 200 plus goals ?
		
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And Gerrard hasn't always had Alonso and Torres - 4 seasons out of his 15 seasons


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2014)

richart said:



			But would you score 200 plus goals ?
		
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Depends how long you're willing to give me to score them. But if you've got players behind you that allow you to get forward and get in the box then the chances are you will end up in positions to score more goals.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Gerrard hasn't always had Alonso and Torres - 4 seasons out of his 15 seasons
		
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Maybe not, but he has had Sturridge, Suarez, Coutinho, Mascherano, Anelka, Cisse, Fowler, Luis Garcia, Morientes, Owen, Carroll and Heskey (OK I'm joking with the last two) around him for a lot of his career and that list of players would make me look a lot better than I am.


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Virgil van Dijk for us at the moment.....massively overrated. 

In English football I give you Gerrard,Walcott,Wellbeck,Cleverly,Carroll,Ozil,Krul....it would be a lengthy list.
		
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Gerrard- you now officially know nothing about football.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Gerrard- you now officially know nothing about football.
		
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I refer you to my points above. Looks better than he actually is due to the players he's had around him. 

If he is a truly world class player then why have him and Lampard never done it together for England.


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## G_Mulligan (Aug 31, 2014)

davemc1 said:



			Bearing in mind and in the interest of fairness, I'm sure the guy has qualities. His list of employers and more importantly, trophies is very impressive.

however, the man has to be the most overrated footballer I've ever come across. King of the three 3yd straight/backward pass. The man is the biggest crab. He's crap, pure crap and nothing but crap.

wow that feels better 



Hope this isn't seen as an anti arsenal thing, feel free to post your footballer who is seen as great but, just isn't
		
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Certain people in a far far better position to judge than you disagree. Jose Mourinho and Christiano Ronaldo describe him as the best number 10 in the world. Both of his current managers clearly agree one paid Â£42 million for him and the other started him in every game in the world cup and won it. Ozil is a fantastic player who has just come back from winning the world cup in South America straight after his first season in a fast paced new league. The guy is just getting back to fitness and to call him overrated is laughable.

Also Gerrard and Beckham are fantastic players too and whoever said they were overrated are also talking nonsense.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 31, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			I refer you to my points above. Looks better than he actually is due to the players he's had around him. 

If he is a truly world class player then why have him and Lampard never done it together for England.
		
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surely by that token, messi and Ronaldo aren't very good either as they're supported my iniesta, xavi, Pedro, benzema, bale and have done nothing on the world stage either?


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## Liverbirdie (Aug 31, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			I refer you to my points above. Looks better than he actually is due to the players he's had around him. 

If he is a truly world class player then why have him and Lampard never done it together for England.
		
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Granted, he hasn't performed as well for England, but he was mainly shifted around the team not playing in his best position.

In the premier league and champions league(lots say that this is currently the pinnacle of football) he has been fantastic. 174 career goals mainly from midfield, probably better than 90% of premier league strikers.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			surely by that token, messi and Ronaldo aren't very good either as they're supported my iniesta, xavi, Pedro, benzema, bale and have done nothing on the world stage either?
		
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I would say that Messi and Ronaldo are the exact opposite of Gerrard/Lampard in that they are the ones bringing out the best in the players around them. Yes Iniesta and Xavi are very good players but Messi also does it for Argentina. Not 100% conviced by Pedro (yet) or Benzema, Bale looks very good so far but not sure if it's only his pace that makes him look that good and whether that alone is sustainable over his career.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Granted, he hasn't performed as well for England, *but he was mainly shifted around the team* not playing in his best position.
		
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And the other thing being that if you are truly world class then you are too good to be moved from your best position to fit in with the team. Messi and Ronaldo don't get played at left back to fit in with the rest of the team. They are played in their best position and the rest of the team work around them because they are too good at what they do to be moved from where they perform to their best.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			And the other thing being that if you are truly world class then you are too good to be moved from your best position to fit in with the team. Messi and Ronaldo don't get played at left back to fit in with the rest of the team. They are played in their best position and the rest of the team work around them because they are too good at what they do to be moved from where they perform to their best.
		
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In your opinion is Suarez world class? Is Neymar?

How would you fit them into Barcelonas team?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			In your opinion is Suarez world class? Is Neymar?

How would you fit them into Barcelonas team?
		
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In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get *all 3* of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			I refer you to my points above. Looks better than he actually is due to the players he's had around him. 

If he is a truly world class player then why have him and Lampard never done it together for England.
		
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Sorry but utter utter nonsense 

Gerrard in 04 spent the whole season on his own getting Liverpool into the CL - the next year in the CL Final on the biggest stage he produced when it mattered

To dismiss Gerrard and in fact Lampard as Top players based on England only getting to a couple of quarter finals is laughable 

Gerrard was hardly ever played in his favoured position for England - he was shifted around to accommodate other players including Lampard , Barry etc because his ability enabled him to play a number of different roles


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## Marshy77 (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Gerrard- you now officially know nothing about football.
		
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Agreed. People may dislike a player (Beckham for instance - who again was a fantastic player) but to say there massively overatted is bordering on stupidity.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry. *How can opinion be wrong.* Didn't realise you had the definitive vote on what is and isn't correct
		
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*Having* a differing opinion isn't wrong! But if the two *opinions* directly conflict with each other, then one of them has to be wrong! So the answer is - very easily!

There's also a lot of 'grey area' where apparently conflicting, subjective, opinions could have equal validity.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 1, 2014)

Foxholer said:



*Having* a differing opinion isn't wrong! But if the two *opinions* directly conflict with each other, then one of them has to be wrong! So the answer is - very easily!

There's also a lot of 'grey area' where apparently conflicting, subjective, opinions could have equal validity.
		
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You make a good point but the whole thread is based on opinions, even directly conflicting (look at the Lampard/Gerrard ones). However even if they are poles apart and direct opposites, that doesn't give LP or indeed anyone else the right to say I'm wrong. If the thread was factually based and there was a proven answer to it available then I'm happy to be proved wrong. However when it's an opinion I think I, and everyone else contributing to the thread should be able to post what they think without someone blatantly saying they are wrong. That's nothing short of ill informed and rude.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter and I don't want what was said yesterday to deflect from the thread so having said my bit I'll leave it there and wait news of who is or isn't going to be the saviour of Liverpool, Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea et al


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## pokerjoke (Sep 1, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ozil is a top player and I think the OP is way off the mark. Someone has to do the simple stuff and he does it well and is a fulcrum for the Arsenal pass and move style. It's no different to the stuff the likes of Barry has done for his club and England for so long
		
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Ozil in the PM has not proved to be a top player yet,not even close.
If you pay 42 million for someone to do the simple stuff your soon going to be
bankrupt.
You may not have meant to compare Ozil with Barry but to me and others it came across
that way.
To say Phil was disagreeing with you just for the sake of it is wrong in fact imo hes right.
Of course its all about opinions and with a thread like this [especially football] they always
turn into arguments.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get *all 3* of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.
		
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Of course Neymars world class.
He was Brazil in the World cup without him they were average.
Lampard was a class midfielder as was Gerrard in the PL.
For England that's debatable,however you cant argue that week in week out 
in the PL for their respective teams they were great midfielders.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 1, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Ozil in the PM has not proved to be a top player yet,not even close.
If you pay 42 million for someone to do the simple stuff your soon going to be
bankrupt.
You may not have meant to compare Ozil with Barry but to me and others it came across
that way.
To say Phil was disagreeing with you just for the sake of it is wrong in fact imo hes right.
Of course its all about opinions and with a thread like this [especially football] they always
turn into arguments.
		
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My biggest gripe was being told my opinion was wrong. Whether you agree or not it was an opinion to which I'm entitled to without anyone having the right to tell me categorically it's incorrect when it's a thread based on entirely on opinions and not a factual based discussion with a given correct answer. Enough said, lets move on


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2014)

What I was saying was wrong was you suggest Ozil was doing the simple was a water carrier and was linking the play from the back to the creative players and mentioning players like Barry when that is clearly wrong - regardless of opinion or anything - only have to watch Ozil to see he does no such thing 

For Germany and for Madrid he played and drifted in from the right to put himself on his left foot and that opened him up to create - the water carrying work was done by players like Khedria

At Arsenal he started on the right but moved across to the left - currently he is still on the left of a three behind a striker with Carzola in the middle and Sanchez on the right - the water carrying work is done by Ramsey and Wilshire and Arteta 

That's clear as day when watching Arsenal and Germany and when he was at Madrid - there is no just simple stuff , there is no water carrying along the lines of Gareth Barry - he is the creator playing in the wider areas

Ozil is a number ten - play him behind the striker with players like Walcott and Sanchez running off him and then you will see the best of him


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get *all 3* of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.
		
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So intead of keeping a world class player like Messi in his best position, you would consider moving him around to accommodate all or some of the other players then.

Gerrard and Lampard were world class, but playing together for England they never produced. Unfortunately successive managers kept trying it, but because Lampard was only effective as an attacking midfielder, Gerrard was normally played as the more defensive option.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			So intead of keeping a world class player like Messi in his best position, you would consider moving him around to accommodate all or some of the other players then.

Gerrard and Lampard were world class, but playing together for England they never produced. Unfortunately successive managers kept trying it, but because Lampard was only effective as an attacking midfielder, Gerrard was normally played as the more defensive option.
		
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I wouldn't consider moving Messi. I'd give him the number 10 shirt and tell him to go out and do what he does best. I said if you wanted to get all 3 into the team then that's the option but if you re-read my post I said I'd leave Neymar on the bench.

As for Gerard and Lampard being world class - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. My opinion is that you are wrong and they aren't world class. Good players yes but in my opinion not truly great or world class. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Of course Neymars world class.
He was Brazil in the World cup without him they were average.
Lampard was a class midfielder as was Gerrard in the PL.
For England that's debatable,however you cant argue that week in week out 
in the PL for their respective teams they were great midfielders.
		
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As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.
		
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Can I just ask, the players you lsted as making Gerrard look better. How many of them do you think were better than Gerrard? Because if nit all of them, then surely your logic re messi/Ronaldo making others looks better could be applied?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2014)

Maybe those other players were made to look great because of Gerrard - how did Torres and Owen do when they left Liverpool ? 

Maybe Torres scored all those goals because of the play of Gerrard ? 

Both of them have more goals in the Prem than most of the strikers that have played in the Prem 

For 15 years Gerrard has been in the centre of the park for his club - in 04 the squad was poor - very poor. In 05 we still had a poor squad but managed to win the CL - Gerrards performances during that run were outstanding.

In 06 he then dragged the club through the FA Cup final and he has continually performed week in week out for his club. 

Watching Gerrard over the years and he was world class at the height of his form - he was up there with the best central mids seen in the league ever.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe those other players were made to look great because of Gerrard - how did Torres and Owen do when they left Liverpool ? 

Maybe Torres scored all those goals because of the play of Gerrard ? 

Both of them have more goals in the Prem than most of the strikers that have played in the Prem 

For 15 years Gerrard has been in the centre of the park for his club - in 04 the squad was poor - very poor. In 05 we still had a poor squad but managed to win the CL - Gerrards performances during that run were outstanding.

In 06 he then dragged the club through the FA Cup final and he has continually performed week in week out for his club. 

Watching Gerrard over the years and he was world class at the height of his form - he was up there with the best central mids seen in the league ever.
		
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Owen did well at Real when he got the chance. 
On the flip side what about Carrol,Robbie Keane & Morientes. 
They all scored plenty before joining Liverpool & playing with Gerrard.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.
		
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So by that reckoning no player playing for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, City etc can be tagged world class, as they are normally also surrounded by great players then.

In comparison to most acknowledged world class players over the last 15 years, Gerrard has been surrounded by less great players. Ronaldo, Messi, Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Drogba had many world class and great players surrounding them, whereas Gerrard only generally had 2-3 at any one time. Great players bring out the best in each other, and the more you have the more chance of winning. Gerrard sometimes single-handedly won finals for Liverpool. Over-rated or not, for a time he would have been the first name in midfield for most neutral fans/players/journalists in a world 11.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			So by that reckoning no player playing for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, City etc can be tagged world class, as they are normally also surrounded by great players then.

In comparison to most acknowledged world class players over the last 15 years, Gerrard has been surrounded by less great players. Ronaldo, Messi, Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Drogba had many world class and great players surrounding them, whereas Gerrard only generally had 2-3 at any one time. Great players bring out the best in each other, and the more you have the more chance of winning. Gerrard sometimes single-handedly won finals for Liverpool. Over-rated or not, for a time he would have been the first name in midfield for most neutral fans/players/journalists in a world 11.
		
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I'll give you 2nd after Lampard,but that best your getting I'm afraid


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'll give you 2nd after Lampard,but that best your getting I'm afraid 

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Who is this impostor of pinseeker we've had this last week.

Unmask him I say.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Who is this impostor of pinseeker we've had this last week.

Unmask him I say.
		
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:rofl::rofl:
It is I you fool:ears:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Over-rated or not, for a time he would have been the first name in midfield for most neutral fans/players/journalists in a world 11.
		
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Just for fun let me know the years you are including in "for a time" and I'll see if I can come up with a midfield that doesn't include him. If I can't I will accept that my initial assessment of Gerrard was wrong and he was world class.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just for fun let me know the years you are including in "for a time" and I'll see if I can come up with a midfield that doesn't include him. If I can't I will accept that my initial assessment of Gerrard was wrong and he was world class.
		
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20.45 -22.00 25th May 2005 - well you did ask?

2005 - 2008 say.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



*20.45 -22.00 25th May 2005 - well you did ask?*

2005 - 2008 say.
		
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Now this made me laugh. Cracking response. 

Leave it with me and I'll (hopefully) get a midfield posted from those years that doesn't include him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2014)

Gerrard was voted into 3 UEFA team of the years and 3 FIFA Teams of the Year

As well as a third in the Ballon - UEFA Club of the year - ESM Team of the Year 

So that's players , managers , fans and  media putting him in teams of the year


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			2005 - 2008 say.
		
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Midfielders from those years *I* would have chosen over Gerrard..........

Ronaldinho
Pavel Nedved
Kaka
Chrstiano Ronaldo (but only for the latter 2 years)
Xavi
Franck Ribery
Andres Iniesta
Wesley Sneijer

I will concede that a lot of people share your view as he was in the UEFA (fans vote I think) team of the year for 2005, 2006 and 2007 and so was obviously doing something during those years that I missed. In my defence those were the years that I was married to my ex wife and spent most of the time drunk or using mind altering substances so it is entirely possible/probable that my memory isn't the best.

http://www.uefa.com/community/teamoftheyear/history/index.html


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard was voted into 3 UEFA team of the years and 3 FIFA Teams of the Year

As well as a third in the Ballon - UEFA Club of the year - ESM Team of the Year 

So that's players , managers , fans and  media putting him in teams of the year
		
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Last season you told us fan votes didn't count. I belive after Suarez wasn't in the front line of the year in a vote with Millions. Just saying......

totaaly agree gerrard was world class though!


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## Papas1982 (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Midfielders from those years *I* would have chosen over Gerrard..........

Ronaldinho
Pavel Nedved
Kaka
Chrstiano Ronaldo (but only for the latter 2 years)
Xavi
Franck Ribery
Andres Iniesta
Wesley Sneijer

I will concede that a lot of people share your view as he was in the UEFA (fans vote I think) team of the year for 2005, 2006 and 2007 and so was obviously doing something during those years that I missed. In my defence those were the years that I was married to my ex wife and spent most of the time drunk or using mind altering substances so it is entirely possible/probable that my memory isn't the best.

http://www.uefa.com/community/teamoftheyear/history/index.html

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if we go by either a 442 or 4231 as common formations. Which 4/5 would you pick. I'll grant you that a lot on that list were maybe more entertaining than Gerrard. But who other than iniesta fits in the middle?


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2014)

Ronaldinho - striker
 Pavel Nedved - played in the hole, but more of a forward
 Kaka - played in the hole, but more of a forward
 Chrstiano Ronaldo (but only for the latter 2 years) - winger at that time
 Xavi - brilliant player, but more so after 2009
 Franck Ribery - winger
 Andres Iniesta - even better than xavi, but again better after 2009
 Wesley Sneijer - very good, but come on not in Gerrard's league.

Most of them would have been wingers, forwards, "liberos", but as one of a two in central midfield, apart from Xavi, Iniesta and possibly Nedved - your not comparing apples and apples.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ronaldinho - striker
 Pavel Nedved - played in the hole, but more of a forward
 Kaka - played in the hole, but more of a forward
 Chrstiano Ronaldo (but only for the latter 2 years) - winger at that time
 Xavi - brilliant player, but more so after 2009
 Franck Ribery - winger
 Andres Iniesta - even better than xavi, but again better after 2009
 Wesley Sneijer - very good, but come on not in Gerrard's league.

Most of them would have been wingers, forwards, "liberos", but as one of a two in central midfield, apart from Xavi, Iniesta and possibly Nedved - your not comparing apples and apples.
		
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Of course I forgot Pirlo and Ballack who both also performed for their countries as well as their clubs. I think from those two plus the 8 I previously mentioned I could make up a midfield 4 or 5 that wouldn't include Gerrard. And as Gerrard got shifted around from central midfield and out wide to accommodate other players then I think it's fair to include wide players in the list.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course I forgot Pirlo and Ballack who both also performed for their countries as well as their clubs. I think from those two plus the 8 I previously mentioned I could make up a midfield 4 or 5 that wouldn't include Gerrard. And as Gerrard got shifted around from central midfield and out wide to accommodate other players then I think it's fair to include wide players in the list.
		
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Oh and Xabi Alonso and Patrick Viera.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 2, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course I forgot Pirlo and Ballack who both also performed for their countries as well as their clubs. I think from those two plus the 8 I previously mentioned I could make up a midfield 4 or 5 that wouldn't include Gerrard. And as Gerrard got shifted around from central midfield and out wide to accommodate other players then I think it's fair to include wide players in the list.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			Oh and Xabi Alonso and Patrick Viera.
		
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Gerrard played 95% of his games as one of the midfield two , so to compare him to wingers and forwards isn't right, on this occasion. I don't always like to bring stats into it, but Gerrards scoring and assists stats in that time must have been up there or even above the likes of Alonso, Viera, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Ballack. Plus he could defend, tackle and was an all round midfielder, not a specialist DM or AM.

I obviously cant convince you, but I think that most neutral fans would have had him given the choice. FIFA/UEFA and the Euro journalists rarely pick British players for the Ballon D'or or team of the year, but for this period of time, they seemed conclusive. LFC TV sometimes show a 15 minute cameo of his goals - catch it if you can, they are awesome and the first fifty are all top notch goals.

Xabi Alonso had 2 very good seasons out of 4, but he was still no Gerrard. 99.9% of Liverpool fans would say the same.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 2, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Gerrard played 95% of his games as one of the midfield two , so to compare him to wingers and forwards isn't right, on this occasion. I don't always like to bring stats into it, but Gerrards scoring and assists stats in that time must have been up there or even above the likes of Alonso, Viera, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Ballack. Plus he could defend, tackle and was an all round midfielder, not a specialist DM or AM.

I obviously cant convince you, but I think that most neutral fans would have had him given the choice. FIFA/UEFA and the Euro journalists rarely pick British players for the Ballon D'or or team of the year, but for this period of time, they seemed conclusive. LFC TV sometimes show a 15 minute cameo of his goals - catch it if you can, they are awesome and the first fifty are all top notch goals.

Xabi Alonso had 2 very good seasons out of 4, but he was still no Gerrard. 99.9% of Liverpool fans would say the same.
		
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I think Gerrard being one of two in a centre pairing would be a fair shout and he certainly deserves to be in the running. Whether he was the best of not obv comes down to opinion and whilst I fully agree he is in no way operated. I'd imagine many arsenal fans would rather Vieira first for example. Imo a paring of Scholes and vieira is perfect. But I'd not mind stevie on the bench.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I think Gerrard being one of two in a centre pairing would be a fair shout and he certainly deserves to be in the running. Whether he was the best of not obv comes down to opinion and whilst I fully agree he is in no way operated. I'd imagine many arsenal fans would rather Vieira first for example. Imo a paring of Scholes and vieira is perfect. But I'd not mind stevie on the bench.
		
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Can't believe I forgot Scholes. Whoever said I know nothing about football might have a point.


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## Slime (Sep 3, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Jack Wilshere as got to be one of the most over rated players currently in the game. 
As for Beckham,quality player & great professional. People just like to dislike him for some reason.
		
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Absolutely spot on ................ on both counts.



ColchesterFC said:



			Can't believe I forgot *Scholes*. Whoever said I know nothing about football might have a point. 

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A pocket genius, oh how England and United miss him.


*Slime*.


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